20 Episode results for "Prophet Mohammad"

Ep. 65- Habit #14- Bismillah - #26SpiritualHabits

The Rogue Muslim

18:00 min | 3 months ago

Ep. 65- Habit #14- Bismillah - #26SpiritualHabits

"We look around. But. We do not see we hear all these sounds, but failed to listen. We talk that talk so eloquently, but when the time comes to walk the walk, we. Just turn a blind eye. We have become an audience like those sit around soccer fields with nice comfy seats and plenty of food and drinks to last for the game. We have become an audience who just sits on the sidelines where the audience to the cries of those who cry for justice, wondering if justice was ever just because now. Now. It's just them. And their Lord? Everyone and welcome to another episode of the road, Muslim Polka. This week I am doing a pre check in for the fourteenth spiritual have I have no idea how. How quickly time has gone and. I just. I'm still shocked than stuck to fourteen You know sometimes I think when we try and set ourselves tussle anonymous goal oriented person for me. I was really worried. I was thinking high. Actually follow through this. Can I commit to a night constantly updating on it, but humble home so far going fourteen strong and yeah just. An looking forward to what this next Batch of habits split up to twelve and thirteen, twenty six on. Any. I'm just interested to see where it goes. I was on such a high. Low when now I'm hoping to get into a high with or You know this habit in allowing it to take root in my in my mind, and my and my practice so the while. You don't even know what to do what you do from the. the this next habit is to recite the verse of loss of this Melilla manure him. just before any action I take I think I've mentioned in the past. I have a friend who she's like. She's always reciting before getting up in for holding T! Before, I, don't know opening her laptop everything she does. She just recites it and. I was so fascinated with it and just. I don't think. In the beginning to religious like why are you doing it? What's the point of it and then I think it's just about capacity. Right like we don't were all on this ladder and I don't think anybody should be knocking any. One another's ladders I think there's a hippie around that, but we need to help each other and I think just to consistency in her practice She just. A hundred resonated. We've never talked about and I've never never told her like. Religious of whatever it was just a form of judgement that I had. An judgment comes from when you're not in the place where you feel that you're not doing enough for you. Just don't feel right about your spirituality your web, right. So for me. It's a now at the stage where I think that Oh built a always habits have built this relationship with little bit more meaningful than deeper than it was a year prior and I think this stage where I can start saying this and start incorporating this into my last little wave that actually resonates with me and has meaning to me, not just. Well all do it because she does it or Yeah, I don't know It doesn't burn some. It doesn't feel that I'm being too religious. I involved from that kind of narrative. I think with. The morning. Work on your capacity. The greater that space opens up. Elect gives you more opportunities to connect with him I. Think At least that's what I've learnt so far with this series and being very intentional, and that's the other thing right like I want to have an intentional new around this and I'm hoping that further communicates to me the power being intentional with your Neil. Honest about that is the biggest biggest lesson I've learned this through throughout the series in one in Charlotte take with me for the rest of my life power of having. Intentions to bright and I I think this will hopefully will be. will come through, and what will be interesting. Is that in I am stamping the will of God? The name of God onto every action I do you know? How will I better purify that intention how I better purified that act you know, what will it allow me to consider anything? This is GonNa be an immediate thing. I don't think it's like Bismillah, Herman or human, then all of a sudden my whole. Framework in my understanding of this action has changed or whatever I think that it builds up because morning you seek to go seek got the more you find Gordon. Hopefully, the more I. Got Gotten each act, the more I will find him and and. And what I can do with that act. To have a greeter faculty or if that makes sense so it. Is just such A. It's a I that is very beautiful and that we are constantly encouraged her site I. Think Ed's The prophet. Mohammad Khatami. That anyone who recites Bismillah will record four thousand virtues for him for each letter forgive four thousands of his sin. So I need that. I think we all need that if Tiny's in the buildup. We think they're really having effect, but really a cordless to be blind. and hopefully you with reciting at this spurs hopefully that blindness also decreases right and and God consciousness increases an shaped snus. Gu's way slowly, but surely inshallah Thank you. That's the main thing that. Hoping to get out of this you know and and will Will being trying to purify main tension and putting, Gordon everything will. Allow me to further realized that this is a very transitory period that we're not meant for this world that we are meant for the afterlife so when I be able to see through side of this world and. Seek out or building roots in the foundations for my in Charlotte success in the afterlife, so yeah, that's kind of what hoping just want to share a few quick commentaries on the vs cell so there are a. Bust selection of commentary right regarding this verse. So Somehow GonNa go through all of it, obviously I don't even know, but just through some research I found some that I found resonated with me so in the country of do I command. sorry. He states that there was once a mistake who observed that. That the Bois in Besmellah connotes the beginning of the mystical, treading onto the lot, and from the scene so besam right back to seen that is the. Kind of the secret of knowing where we're in the endless desert of ignorance, and so the hiding of that. But. When you say this. there in that hiding of the other in its in this boss desert, so that implies that in the secret does not dissolve his egotism in the light of laws unity. He will not reach me. which the ultimate intention so I! I think it's Sometimes read these things, and we're not state to enter into our hearts and minds and our lifestyles, and sometimes we are. We need a reminder, right, but justified that. We can become so connected to I. Think for me. That's one of slum where I'm constantly seeking so never gets. purposeless right and I WANNA. Make that S-. Yeah connection with. I think in this tiny this day and age it can feel that we often have lack of purpose especially with Kovin, our lifestyle, changing and stuff So, but yeah, there's just one thing, and I hope that in invoking this verse of I can consistently Trend them, off of a lowering might egotism and lowering how my ego kind of. Increases my blindness to him As well as Getting purpose today today, sometimes you know it's so hard to get our vendues things in in have this motivation and stuff, and so even if my even the only thing. I'm concerned that they is getting some into a lot even if it's only saying our. Even if it's only purifying my attention I mean that to me now. I see that success for not only this life, and but the afterlife right, and so it's those small things that build up. That can have greater impact than we think we give. The next thing in the same commentary of work. It's also stated that by implies the observant seen implies all hearing and mean implies the count. so it's as if a law is making the supplicant aware that I am the observant I can observe. You're visible and invisible deeds so with hypocrisy near action. And I'm the all hearing I can also hear the results of your deeds in some locations to avoid useless speech, and I am the count so I can even count your bread so beware of every month and this to me. It was probably the biggest one that stuck that. If, if imagine if I died in the next thirty seconds right? Imagine if I died tomorrow. I want to die same smell her. In, Charlotte, right or obviously is what Lila up, but I want to die invoking the name of this. Or invoking the name of an so, it's a law that counts are. He's the counter and he's. How many more do I have to To purify my make better, my actions and into not just be really useless. With my actions and the time and not take advantage of the time that I have just because I might use that I have long time Neverthe- case. So yeah, I just WANNA be. had. Hoping that would be more intentional about pure. Find Deeds, and you know even I think. When I WANNA sit right. What are sins are major minor whatever it is I'm hoping that. I. E even if I invoke this above me, when will it make me pause? Reflect like one is the purpose of this. Is what will impact be on, not just myself? My soul at my hereafter with that of the other people as well so I'm wondering if we'll just cause me to. Have a lack of desire to send in shallow. I don't know I don't know. Let's see The last thing I want to share. Is that in the Koran naive usually use skull to study on It says that the ordering with three divine name. So this is the commentary from us or Fatah, and it's the country on the first of this middle, Herman. Says the ordering of the three divine names in buffalo can be seen as an allusion to the levels of divinity in relation to the created order. Some God lot refers to the divine essence, principal or self than Aramon the Compassionate refers to the unity of God's attributes, and our a merciful is the unity of God's acts See I'm just trying to figure out how can I can unify going in everything right and I in the beginning of the year I was invoking his attributes now. How can I put those attributes into my actions right? How can they unify all this? and become. A. Principled with it. In Charlotte, so, yeah, that's kind of what Mine Haitians are with this. This particular habits inshallah. Please wish me well I can do it. I mean I have been practicing it, but I I have kindy left. IT'S CRAZY I! Don't know where where these months ago or these months are going, so we wish me luck if you are going to do it or if you been doing any the habits in loved your update And I'm usually accessible through instagram and twitter with afterward Muslim. My facebook is at the road. Muslim, or you can just email meets the road. Muslim ACHY MEL DOT COM, and the in the podcast served any benefit to you I really really appreciate it if you could leave a racing on whatever podcasting platform you listened focused on, it's really easy. It takes less than two minutes but it really just helps gain traction ads means more or less than more people can. Listen, so he thinks that these are benefit and other people. Should the symptom just freeze in a? Racing in a review or even if you could share it, on your social media. Would just yeah. Just be really appreciated in shot law. We can get more people. To Enter into this habit series. Then I just love to hear more and more. Stories of people's enduring these things, so yeah I love heavy virtual conversations with people. It's one of my favorite things I. Think it's one of the best ways that we can. consistently revive our. Intentions to a law and and to seek the beauty of Islam. because. It's so hard sometimes in this day and age I think we. We know it's a beautiful religion and faith, but to to. Advance that the vision of beauty. Can sometimes be difficult what we are so flawed and we are increasingly. Tend to live. By the by. Things that we should be right and that impacts obviously our a hawk our. Connection to a law our. Ten dollars more to the the trials of this world. ETC, etc, so yeah. Those a little bit of a tangent, but yeah just and thank you so much for tuning in for the kind messages for letting me know where you are on your journeys I, just love the conversations that I've been able to have people over the years It's really really appreciate it so yeah until next time when I give you an update at hope, everyone is safe and Oem doise for this This week in. If we can. Give the worst from people who have faced Injustices in in the form where they are displaced so for those that are internally displaced refugees who have. Had to resettle yeah shallow. We prayed that we hold our governments accountable for the the being the reason that many of them are displaced and. And have to seek refuge elsewhere and then face discrimination there, so yeah, it's just mad. How much are? How much? The fitness of this world is based on our human actions, and and how much control we actually have. Disheartening and hopeful at the same time, but in survived there for those who have lost their lives to reasons that have caused displacements, a war famine climate injustice. Exclaim Neil Consequences? Colonialism accenture so Y-? an initial la everyone is safe and well and. Speak to use you. Take Care Bye.

Charlotte Gordon soccer Herman Bismillah Mohammad Khatami us facebook Tiny Gu Fatah Besmellah Kovin Neil principal instagram Neverthe Lila twitter
Ancient Archaeology - Best of Coast to Coast AM - 7/28/20

The Best of Coast to Coast AM

20:31 min | 3 months ago

Ancient Archaeology - Best of Coast to Coast AM - 7/28/20

"Did. You know GEICO's now offering an extra fifteen percent credit on car and motorcycle policies. That's fifteen percent on top of what Geico could already save you. So what are you waiting for your baby to let you sleep in? Sleeping another half hour. Thanks Sweetheart. And you'll change yourself to. Never, been a better time to switch to geico save an extra fifteen percent when you switch by October seventh limitations apply visit GEICO DOT COM for details. Now, here's a highlight from coast to coast am on Iheartradio and welcome back Dr Ken Hansen back with us he's a dynamic author lecturer founder of treasures in time, which is an organization devoted to disseminating knowledge of the biblical and classical world. He is doggone archaeological sites in the Middle East lived in a very politically volatile region of northern Galilee taught Hebrew on an Israeli agricultural settlement and he is also worked with a television news gathering operation in a war zone in southern Lebanon at the height of that civil. War that left the jewel of the Middle Mediterranean in ruins Dr Hanson lends a timeless perspective to the challenges of the future. He's also noted author. One of his books includes Dead Sea Scrolls the untold story Dr Ken Hansen back on Coast to coast. Hi, can good you back good to be with you George and warm shallow from the University of Central Florida Orlando Judeh studies programs. They continue to find discoveries around Jerusalem, ancient sites, digging them up like crazy. What's going on there? It's unbelievable. Something is always going on when it comes to Jerusalem when it comes to the land, of Israel, just this last week as a matter of fact, there is a new report out. That details, a huge ancient complex that government complex that has been uncovered. This is twenty seven hundred years old from the days of the ancient Israelite King has a Kaya just recently unearthed near the US embassy in Jerusalem and containing. Gorge Jars broken up of course, but but bearing actual seal inscriptions in Paleo Hebrew that read Lamelo, which means to the king or four the king we're talking about the ancient king has Kaya. There's always something going on it seems isn't that interesting? It sure is let's talk a little bit about the Ark of the Covenant Ken so much ground to cover in the two hours with US explain first of all to those few people who may not know what the Ark of the Covenant is what it is. Well, my goodness beyond Indiana Jones, we've got the. Story. Of the ancient Israelites who according to the scriptural texts that came out of the land of Egypt back in the days of the Ferro, we're not sure which ferro it was maybe the Federal Ramsey maybe an early or pharaoh but that's the story and they went to the Great Mount Sinai where they encamped where Moses went up and received the ten commandments and brought them down and the ten commandments inscribed on stone tablets were housed in a special chest gold covered. Intricately crafted by the Israelites and they call it the Arts Ark of the covenant, the our own cordish in Hebrew the holy are. Covered with gold and resembling the kind of. Ancient chest, we would have found in Egypt. We actually have examples of such Egyptian chests and the Israelites made one fabricated one that looks strikingly like an Egyptian chest that that alone is evidence that indeed is realized may have lived may in fact, have resided in ancient Egypt and come out with a piece of furniture that look like where they had been living and they brought that chest that Arthur the. Covenant with them across the Sinai desert wandering for forty years, brought it under Joshua into the land of promise which the Israelites captured according to the Bible under their great commander Joshua who conquered Jericho with its walls falling down and wherever they went on their march of conquest. The ARC went with them as this to guarantees their victory it eventually, it was brought up to Jerusalem and housed in the Great Temple. Built by the venerable king. Solomon. And there it resided until the temple was destroyed in the year five, eighty, six BC or BC by the Babylonian invaders but some time in the midst of antiquity, the Ark itself was lost. No trace of there's no suggestion that the Babylonians when they destroyed the temple ever took the are with them, the the Prophet. Jeremiah. Made an intricate list of the various furnishings of the temple that were taken by the Babylonians, into captivity way back when the ARC was not among them, it just vanished at some point in the biblical record and has not surfaced. So where on earth might have ended up there all manner of stories perhaps, it was taken down to Ethiopia. The Queen of Sheba and that's one bit of folklore. But perhaps just perhaps it was lowered down into the subterranean cavities beneath the temple in what's called the Temple Mount and simply hidden protected there. And who knows it may still be there according to some intrepid archaeologist including various Israelis who have actually been on the track, the the tracing the Ark of the Covenant for for decades. Now. Why is it? So important today this quest defined it. Well, when we think of just how political things are my goodness we live in a political season don't win everything is politicized especially in the Middle East th. This is an incendiary piece of territory. It's like ready to explode at any minute I've got in fact a little quote from the chief justice of the Palestinians shape Taseer Mimi who said, and I'm quoting there was not Jewish civilization in Jerusalem many people lived there through the ages and they left some artifacts. But so what there is no proof of any Jews being here. And this is widely disseminated in the Middle East and believed that the the Jewish people just kind of showed up in the mid twentieth century and basically took Arab land. So imagine how political this gets on my God yeah. Yeah, and imagine if. Such an artifact we're actually uncovered. And then bear in mind that. Serious. In this. Most. Difficult Tinderbox. It cannot be conducted just because of the political considerations now. Think of a the agent city in the modern city of Jerusalem where you have this vast in warmest plateau, of limestone. Is Greater in size than the Great Pyramid as a matter of fact, and contain some of largest limestone ashes ever chiseled Enormous. On top of that great plateau used to stand according to at least Biblical tradition is a Jewish temple. It's not there anymore. What is there? Today is the third holiest site in Islam. Is called the mosque of Omar or the Dome of the Rock Hall Yeah It's the Great. Golden. Dome that people see and photos of Jerusalem. Gorgeous. Absolutely. Gorgeous. It's one of the most beautiful buildings in the world at least from my perspective, I've never seen anything. So spectacular as the Great Golden Dome of the Rock, why is it? So important? Why is it's the holiest site in? Islam. It's sits above the one. Piece of bedrock, it's a rocky outcropping on. This enormous plateau. Now King Herod the great extended what was a natural hill with this natural piece of of rock extended in all directions with as I mentioned this limestone plateau it's it's the size of twenty four football fields. It's that massive again in size larger than the great. Pyramid visa. There's this one piece of rock, which in Jewish tradition is the exact place where Abraham almost sacrificed his son Isaac. His hand being stopped at the last minute by an angel. Well in Islamic tradition, this is where the Prophet Mohammad. Actually came to Jerusalem miraculously in one night on a mystical steed named a Boorda who transported him. From Mecca, all the way to Jerusalem in a single night and the prophet set foot on this piece of rock whereupon, a ladder of white miraculously extended up into the heavens and the Prophet was brought up to meet a lot himself who took the heart out of his body and washed in pure water. Put back into his chest down. He went back on Alberta back to Mecca in a single night. That's why it's the third holiest site in Islam. That's why it is so very political and that's why it's impossible to conduct archaeology any serious archaeology in this area it's also the holiest site in Judaism it is it is it hasn't been threatened the be bought blowing up. Oh. Yes. As well. The Dome has been threatened on numerous occasions and how tragic it is because wouldn't it be nice as somebody said, if we could all just get along rights, wouldn't it be nice. Especially in the holy city where you have so many treasures literally. There's an area in old Jerusalem I used to live there It's about one square kilometer that's it, and it's called the. Basin, and in this Holy Basin, we've got the remains of the three great monotheistic civilizations of the Western World Judaism Christianity Islam. As we mentioned the mosque. We also have the Church of the holy. Sepulcher, in that same area as I could just walk over there and evening. That's the holiest site in Christianity and also the last vestige of the Temple Mount that great limestone plateau, with that, I've talked about. Containing the largest single limestone ash ller. In the in the entire Middle East one of the largest ever ever fabricated can lend. Let me ask you to far from that region where you were in Jerusalem was Jesus killed. He was crucified outside of Jerusalem. But how far away. Well, in those days, it was immediately outside of the Old City walls. The city wall of that day I should say today that wall was x has been expanded actually an Ottoman Turkish Times so that the the location of the crucifixion is today inside the Old City Wall of Jerusalem. Some people think well, that disqualifies it because as you mentioned these according to the Texas crucified outside will in antiquity it was exactly outside it's the place we call the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. It's all the way back to the mother of the Emperor Constantine. We're talking Roman, times Queen Delano, she went through the Middle East and found various places which she claimed were authentic Christian sites and the Church of the holy. Sepulcher. What what she created as the church is is one of them but all the archaeology points to this as in fact, the place. I it's. It's incredible. Because were nineteen, eighty, ninety, nine percents sure that it'd happened right there is it it's gotta be are are inspiring to be there. Absolutely, is I. It's a little bit Dank and musty these days because we've got an old and old romanesque piece of architecture, the church itself Romanesque, very dark and Dank, and some people find it rather depressing. But when you actually examine the archaeology, all comes packed the archaeology. We have first century tombs exactly there in the center of of the Church we have one. Then underground, we have authentic first century tombs. This had to be the place and also not far we have. A rather recent discovery just within the last couple of decades the place where Jesus of Nazareth a historical Jesus would have been tried by punch pilot. And people don't even recognize that it's there they walk right by and they don't know what they're looking at but it's it's a piece of rocky outcropping the dates from the days of King, Herod, the great we know exactly where punches pilot would've sat. On his his Pretoria miserable little thrown where Jesus would have been brought out of the remains of an ancient gate and Stood, exactly before him where the Roman soldiers would have been positioned I've been there many times and as I say people walked right by dried by it's part of the Old City Wall Jerusalem, they don't know what they're looking at. But that's the archaeology and that's why I wrote my new book. Who Holy. Land. I, the allergy meets geopolitics absolutely Middle East. Let's bring the name Rabbi Yehuda Getz who was he? Rabbi who dog gets here was a rather mystical rabbi. Modern Israeli. Rabbi he's was known as the rabbi, Emeritus of the Western Wall of people call it the Wailing Wall. This is the holiest site in Judaism to this day. The last vestige of that Great Temple Mount and Jews pray there today weep wail throw themselves against the wall I've been there of course, many times, and this is the rabbi who was in charge of the wall the wall now bear in mind that genucel was divided city. Between the Jewish. Side and the Arab eastern side from the Israeli war of independence in nineteen forty, seven, forty eight really when the British left. Right up until the Six Day War of nineteen, sixty seven. Arab east Jerusalem was in the hands of the Jordanians and there was an international border Jerusalem was divided city was like the Berlin villa's like Berlin yeah. It was really a horrific place of barbed wire land mines literally a friend of mine good friend of mine actually lost his leg when he stepped on one of those land raw east and West. Jerusalem. That's the reality of what the city was on. Until June, nineteen sixty, seven, six, Day War was Israel's Blitzkrieg essentially Israel conquered the Sinai peninsula, the Golan. Heights. Very Incendiary And the so-called West Bank Judea Samaria and that includes eastern. Jerusalem was united under Israeli control. The border was taken down the land mines all dismantled and has remained united city to this day back to rabbi gets suddenly Jews had access to their holiest site. Imagine from forty seven to sixty seven Jews could not get to the Western Wall spray. Literally. The city. Suddenly the Israelis have conquered. The whole of East Jerusalem united the city and Rabbi guesses there, and he's one of the first people to actually move his family back into East Jerusalem where Jews had been living for centuries and as and as you say though conquered that but they were attacked first they fought back. Well, as a matter of fact, yes, I, the Egyptians had blockaded the streets of Tehran, and basically blocked Israeli shipping in and out of the port city of a lot that's an active war. Then the Israelis initiated a first strike against the Egyptian airforce and basically blew them up on the ground and that's what initiated the actual war. Now, the Israelis then telegraph frantically to King Hussein of Jordan saying stay out of this. This is between us and the Egyptians and yes, the series we're involved well, the response of the Jordanians was they open cannon fire all along the border. With the fledgling state of Israel. Which? Actually was quite truncated in those days. You've got the Jerusalem got Galilee in the north and a little strip of territory between nine and eleven miles wide along the Mediterranean Sea that was the state of Israel, and now it's being attacked by the Jordanians. Well the Israelis responded and you're right. It was a defensive war and they took all of the territory up to the Jordan River this is ancient Judea and Samaria, and this is also part of my book. We have archaeology all over this region that proves that Jews were living here for Millennia as a matter of fact, and now they simply want to be able to live in holy areas again and yet it is so very political. So incendiary listen to more coast to coast. AM every weeknight at one am eastern and go to coast to coast am dot com for more. Hi I'm Devon Leary Carolina Barlow and we're here to tell you to dump him break up with your boyfriend and we want you to listen to our podcast true romance every week where we talk about our love lives and the lives of others please join our XS who we know. We'll also be listening like Kyle. Kyle, are you there? Hey, babe how's life? No, you look good though me Oh, my God sob please I haven't even gotten a haircut like three months. Okay. Please help us pay for Carolina psychiatrist bills by listening on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. I, want. Everybody has a podcast, right every celebrity. If you would college, there are literally hundreds of thousands of podcasts out there and yeah, it's a bit of a mess. I'm nick cloth and my new show servants a pot will give you the most interesting and important stories of podcasting. And I'll tell you you should care. Listen to servant pod on the iheartradio, APP apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Jerusalem Middle East Israel Dr Ken Hansen Temple Mount GEICO Old City Wall of Jerusalem Old City Wall Jerusalem King Herod Iheartradio Sinai peninsula East Jerusalem Middle Mediterranean Egypt Lebanon University of Central Florida Rabbi Yehuda Getz Great Golden Dome Great Temple Wailing Wall
How a Canadian Trump cartoon shook the continent

The Big Story

16:13 min | 1 year ago

How a Canadian Trump cartoon shook the continent

"It is not your typical week when an editorial cartoonist from new brunswick finds himself doing interviews on one of cnn's league programs but here we are the pomp culturally now political cartoonist let go after seventeen seventeen years with the newspaper chain in right after this cartoon of his went viral political cartoonist michael deandra depicted president trump golfing over the bodies of migrants oscar the grouch martinez in his twenty three month old daughter angie malaria who who drowned trying across rio grande river the president's in the cartoon saying well do you mind if i play through following viral cartoon and perhaps even more viral excetera from his freelance gigging east coast publishing company michael d at her and be long tradition of editorial cartoons both found themselves in the spotlight batters cartoon of donald trump was savage ineffective but why did this drawn in particular catch fire and why was this one a bridge too far for a company that had long published his drawing what is the role of a cartoonist on editorial pages of newspapers in today's arab mass digital consumption why they're vanishing breed what kind of discussion happens behind the scenes at outlets around the world when they particularly biting piece of satire lands on the editor's desk and why are these drawings still so capable of stopping us in are tracks and even while we scroll through thousands of gifts i mean every single day and i'm jordan he's rawlings in this is the big story to do where is a longtime editorial cartoonist she currently draws proposed media i said hi how are you i'm doing well thank you for taking the time we want it to talk to you because a cartoon struck a nerve around the country last week yeah when you first of all he added yeah can you first of all people who have have maybe been tuned out tell me about michael gator's cartoon but everyone was discussing in and tell me why it struck such a nerve if you can't well michael deandra drew a donald trump playing golf essentially by the poor migrant in his little baby died trend across the rio grande i think they the photograph originally upset people enough but when it's drawn in the cartoon it some for some reason blows up have seen it happen again and again people react very strongly to 'em something that has drawn whether it's funnier whether it's a tough like michael's or whether it's sad people have very strong visceral reaction from your perspective wasn't a good editorial cartoon it was a great editorial cartoon it had all that you're a good they had all the earmarks have good sacha it was very hard to look at which is important an it poked a big hole in the truth about what's happening in the migrants situation it made fun of donald trump who deserves it and it had a you know if if you don't like donald trump where you do like donald trump you know his golfing which is ridiculous is m adds an element of humor to to so what happened when that cartoon hit the newspapers you're hippie internet address well viral because 'em the world well let's say the united states is very divided and a lot of canada is divided to their pro conservative of anti conservative pro democratic end so 'em this hit a nerve on all levels a you know the the anti trump people on loved it and they pro trump people hated it and we had those in canada to what happened to michael after that michael is fired and michael absolutely fire for that cartoon there's no other reason they they've made a million excuses it may be a m because he draws trump too often and they don't like it and they told him but he didn't give this cartoon to the newspaper he put it online and it went viral were you surprised that the reaction from the paper was or media harsh as somebody who does the job no not at all not not these days i've seen so many people fired you know free doing a cartoon particularly in the states about donald trump or people that are afraid to drop trump donald trump because of their their boss this is kind of happening way too many places in north america and in britain all kinds of places have been told not to do trump have you done trump i've done trump do have a crash sation around that with their boss would you just do it in i absolutely have the conversation they said we don't want to many trump's and i said well i'm a canadian cartoonist and i will be concentrating on canadian news but i feel like drunk trump i will end it won't be nice there's a part of me a week old son used to be very cheeky andy them they actually liked opposite points of view in the paper they don't so much now that they used to an m i've been in it for so long and i also also have engine auto at you know at the precursor and he got away with a lot so i tend to get away with more than probably some change would allow that was kind of my next question is how much freedom in general do political cartoonist you know political cartoonist is really only as good as his editor there have been all kinds of great cartoons casts on the floor by an editor and whatever chain you when you have no idea how many things have venture even in in them strip cartooning i remember when i was in a strip cartoon called us in them with wiley miller who does non sequitur andy them i did the subject of men of pot so so it'd be non fifteen years ago an all kinds of editors turned it down because it was it was not it wasn't seemingly to discuss men of pots and a cartoon show kwame these days it's ridiculous especially at the time i think that's going through menopause so i had a ball at that one but we lost a lot of readers what kind of conversations would you have with an editor around a cartoon how did that conversation start to hand in the cartoon and then you talk about you talk about an idea before you draw it where does it go well different newspapers papers were definitely the m a lot of them had editorial boards where everybody will meet and discuss what's gonna go on the page and the cartoon cartoon idea will be thrown out in or put in or or whatever what happened a the sun hasn't been that way i'm usually tell the editor what you're gonna draw i used to cheat and 'em and i withdraw my when i handed in a rough i would drop the cartoon i liked the best on the rest i kinda scribble so they always the one that i drew better further up a lot of cartoons do that when you see something like a the past week happened to a cartoonist like michael 'em what goes through your head about the profession and and what do you think his next up should be w have one well i think michael will be fine he's an award winning cartoonist he's he's very well known in the east coast 'em he's still running a number of papers but i think that he will be just fine the whole era of a political cartoons has really been dumbed down partly because of all the syndicate so the risen up in the states pete editors couldn't pick cheap cartoons on whatever subject they want instead of having their cartoonist in the old days newspapers you should love the controversy i could use some of watergate in example they love to pick of the government in power they love to be sneaky in an damn have the first story the best cartoon tune all that but that's all gone because their own by such big conglomerates amethi internet a they're losing money badly in a so they want more fluff which is inexpensive unless controversy was there ever hey figure or a topic 'em before trump was kind of treated in a similar way like okay you might have to draw him sometimes but we don't want too much of it are readers are sensitive like what was that before a donald trump was elected well we were already 'em we already had ahrends try muhammad 'em as you know a what happens to people at drama hama gunfire rushing i think office of french secure coal magazine we just told you about now you might remember this any target of an attack several years ago in response to the cartoon of the prophet mohammad suffer more that was a blow protector deeper 'em satirist like a the charlie hebdo group and before that way way back in the day 'em you could pick and all the politicians but you had to leave the queen alone really yeah that's true no no that'll stop with diana end a all the royal family and all their predilections and then all the stories that came out of that and all that stopped i think we don't drive the queen you know were not to sarcastic when it comes to the queen although we dryer lot but in in relation to trumper relation to something else but now she's sam a much older woman and i think there's a certain amount of respect somebody you can cherry off which she carey's off for her age they're pretty careful around her just because she's been through a lot what do a cartoonist say to each other about a incidents like what happened to michael or a censorship at various newspaper change what's that conversation like do you communicate what they'll take in what they won't there's not that much talk about the right topic the rape chain there's a lot of complaints about but editors and a lot of complaints about 'em the big bureaucracies you know like irving and post media is run by a hedge fund and it goes on things like that one of the one of the most prolific topics and one that i totally concur with that is that a because these big chains run at one particular area they're responsible for newspapers wait together end of the country in in various places around the since the larger cities for example hosts media's tronto base but it runs 'em all the sons across a western canada right in because they're produced in toronto end because there's been sort of a dumbing down of the press and because it's cheaper all the news that go to them is mostly toronto base and they're allowed to put in their own sort of local stories but on the whole the editorial is that a toronto and the cartoon is out of toronto an i think that's a real problem they laid off all their cartoon is that there that was mainly quebec or we've talked a lot about what makes amazing politically cartoon but what makes a bad politically cartoon if someone deserves to lose their job over i think a cartoon is perceived to be racist or intolerant of any particular culture that that doesn't really doesn't really work with the sensibilities of most people then then i think that you deserve to be usually you're just poll and you're not fire right getting back to the cartoon at the center of this i mean one of the reasons as you mentioned was so disturbing is because the image a it's based on what so arresting when you approach a topic like that where you know you're going to draw something that will spark that real emotion in someone how do you balance being cognizant of what is too far and what is needed to provoke a reaction and make your point well cartoonist while often take the too far route and then we have editor's cut us back the rule of thumb cartoonist is a if it makes you t shirt dry because you know that you're you're gonna have a very strong reaction so you know most of us try to put one of those in most of us have had are trial by fire where we've done a cartoon it's gone viral what was yours well in the in the nineteen ninety five quebec referendum that was a very interesting time bouchard lost his leg and none of us cartoon and free year because we felt sorry for him and then of course the block became huge leader opposition he was an them we became sort of angry with him and so we started a cartoon him again and then when 'em we had the the referendum i did the beaver biting bouchard on the wouldn't let oh and boy did i well actually it was similar to the danish cartoon situation and nothing actually happened you know like not a lot of people were looking at the little and it was very small at the time auto watson where i worked but then they had that problem with paris who had made the comment about you know the the vote is lost because of the money's ethnic votes which meant you know basically it was the jews in montreal kill the vote and so they were looking around at deflect from that particular situation and they saw my cartoon and they put it in the front page of every every every newspaper in quebec an debt that's before the internet so we got six thousand written death threats in an unlimited phone calls they had a higher armed guards son really yeah what did you do the bidding retracted did you apologize you know we did not retracted because a my editor was very supportive and so is my publisher at one point during the gm the house of commons the regular house of commons day be he blocked by law had all my cartoons cut out on their laps and we're prepared to weigh on tv and so they condemn they a cartoon in the house of commons was only been to this condemned in the house the common man terry mosier that's in a word of distinction is not a badge of honor for a cartoonist absolutely absolutely and this will be a badge of honor for deandra to i only hope that trump twitter's about it that would be the ps three assists on how do you lampoon donald trump what works 'em he seems so larger than so much larger than life that a i can't imagine a way to do it consistently but doesn't go away too far or just isn't it funny she's already doing that in real life well that's the problem with cartooning him and he's already a cartoon i mean he's already said something completely goofy which which takes the era of any politically cartoon unless you're being savage about it which be like in michael's case he is gone so far past present the united states should be that you know you gotta be pretty savage together at this point he hates the press anyway so you know i'm i'm very surprised at a canadian newspaper would be a trump supporter thank you for taking some time today oh thank you very much nicer talk to you soon you are one of canada's last remaining editorial cartoonist and that's currently at post media that was the big story more big stories to our website at the big story podcast dot cia or just follow us on twitter and we will you a new one every morning you could find us also at frequency podcast network dot com in basically every

editorial cartoonist cnn golfing martinez rio grande river president michael deandra seventeen seventeen years twenty three month fifteen years
Everyday Buddhism 24 - Appreciating Life Through Death Meditation

Everyday Buddhism: Making Everyday Better

28:44 min | 1 year ago

Everyday Buddhism 24 - Appreciating Life Through Death Meditation

"<music> tom welcome to every day buddhism making every day. Better by applying the proven tools found in buddhist concepts welcome to episode twenty four of every day buddhism making every day better so okay today. Let's talk about death. I bet you're wondering how that could possibly make your day better in our culture especially. We keep busy busy so we don't have to think about death to forget about death to try to escape it but we can't escape death and we know for that but we can think about it later right. Let's talk about something else and think about death later right. I say let's talk about it now. How and make our later a little better. It really can help with that. I promise thinking about death can make life joyous use and meaningful and can build or strengthen our sense of connection with everyone in everything you know meditating on daft rath is a traditional buddhist practice and it's also a central practice <hes> with the stokes in the setup pathan ceuta talk from the pali canon which is best known for teaching mindfulness and what is now practiced in contemporary pasta it goes into some. I'm not so pleasant detail about meditating on corpses internal grounds in ancient india describing stages as of decomposition that the ancients would observe. I'm going to share a little from the suture but i warn those not quite up to listening that they should take their ear buds out for a minute or two. I'll pause here to give you a minute pause. Pause pause okay okay now. The suture describes quote a corpse thrown aside in turn around one two or three three days dead bloated livid and losing matter being devoured by crows hawks vultures dogs jackals tackles or various kinds of worms eventually turning into bones rotten and crumbling to dust on observing this the among reminds himself that this body to is of the same nature it will be like that it is not exempt from that fate it unquote k. You can put your ear plugs back in. I mean your ear buds back in now you know and the stomachs talked of death frequently frequently like in the meditations of marcus aurelius where he writes quote bear in mind that everything that exists is already already fraying at the edges and didn't transition subject to fragmentation and to rot unquote death meditation is helpful in many ways particular today in our western culture were dying and death are kept outside and away okay from our daily lives. Many of us have not observed. Someone dying not even a loved one of course we have all experienced the death of loved opt in our lives. Not all of us have been there when it's happening. I've observed people at the very end of life very close to death but i have not been there during the final stage and i doubt if i'm unusual in this even at sixty six years old but meditating or just thinking about death can help us live more fully reflecting on death can help us remember that at the things we find attractive or desirable are quote shiny on the outside but on the inside pitiful as the stoic philosopher. It's the first seneca put it remembering. This helps. Put things in better perspective. You know remember my talks about right view where i said everything is about perspective soon. We may not be around to grasp but those shiny things and this helps us develop a sense of equanimity about things and circumstances in our lives but death meditation isn't for everyone i get that if thinking about death elicits aversion or great fear and not equanimity then it's best to stick with mindfulness meditation yet we can go too far the other way not thinking about it at all because of a fear of death denying it you know according to ah the existential psychotherapist irvin your loam in his book staring at the sun. The fear of death is with his all the time he says whether we realize it or not he writes that even if we are not disabled by that fear of death death anxiety sneaks into our life in many different disguises guises he thinks it's what causes us to distract ourselves through the pursuit of wealth and status for instance or seek comfort route through a complete merging with another complete merging with the 'cause. He claims that this denial quote always exacts a price narrowing our inner life blurring our vision blunting. Our rationality ultimately self self deception catches up with us unquote. He goes on to explain that. Many of us have had the experience of being shaken out of of our denial of death by crisis like terminal illness or bereavement and unexpectedly yellow mark you such experiences can evoke sense of awakening leading to a dropping away of trivial concerns a reprint prioritization of what matters in life life and a heightened perception of the beauty around us. He writes quote though the physicality of death destroys us. The idea of death saves us. I liked that say that again. Though the physicality of death destroys us the idea of death saves us. I think this is one of the key ways. Meditating on death can make appreciate life more when we remember member. Our time is limited or even short. Our perspective changes radically. We've probably all experienced this sort of in the days of like feeling good after having the flu or the first days of walking without a cast or during the hours and days following the natural disaster during her neighborhood or at some of his experienced in the hours and days following september eleventh two thousand one it's pain sadness listen grief but then the crystal clear realization of how beautiful life really is and how beautiful beautiful everyone around us is and how grateful we are to have them. We stop a little quicker when we are about to get angry with our children spouse coworker neighbors. The stoic said it in our teachers say it life is short and death can happen bennett anytime we don't know when this teaching of preparing to die or as many great spiritual teachers even like the prophet mohammad said die before you die. Some of you have made some of you may have heard about the book a year to live by. I stephen and on andrea levin stephen who taught and wrote about death and dying <hes> passed away from cancer in two thousand thousand sixteen but was interviewed by tricycle magazine in he answered the question. Why is it so important to you. Think about dying well his answer quote because we are all going to die. If we could bring that reality into our heart that would be practice unto itself unquote in that interview. He talked about how he shared with the dalai lama that they were working on a book called a a year to live exploring the practice of living as if the present year were our last and the dalai lama question them that may be if those who started ended the practice might run amok and so steven phrase the dalai lama as if the head imagine the end was coming wouldn't they just grab a lady or a guy i in a bottle of tequila and head for the beach but stephen shared no. That's not what they found out in their studies. He said quote when people know that they are going to die that last year is often the most loving most conscious and most caring even under under conditions of poor concentration the side effects of medication and so on unquote he ended up saying so don't wait wait to die until you die practice now. The dalai lama teaches quote. There are two ways to deal with suffering and problems uh-huh. The one is simply to avoid the problem. That's one way the other is to look directly at the problem and analyze that's it and make it familiar to oneself see in this way i guess death is no different than any of the other issues. We look at using using buddhist practice to make our lives better. We know the three marks of existence as mentioned in the dhammapada they are the three things that characterize characterize our very existence there in permanence or unaccounted unsatisfactory nece or suffering duca and no self off or non-self annetta and we know we suffer from delusion about all three of those things so much so uh-huh that we suffer twice or the so called second ero we suffer over our own suffering. We know that things are a impermanent that everything is all of our lives and everything and everyone in our lives and we cling to things as if they are are permanent as if our very clinging can possibly make them permanent and we know that the way to help alleviate the eight are clinging and ultimately are suffering stu practice seeing things exactly as they're not as we wish they would be doing what is important meditating on our lives meditating on our deaths. I think that's how you pronounce it says sept- except toko ricochet a respected teacher in the glucose school was interviewed by buddha weekly for their special issue called learning how to die and n._y. Meditating on death may bring joy to life what the buddhist teachers say about end of life dying in palliative care. He said rinpoche said said quote the purpose of death. Meditation is to inspire an energy to practice even for just ten minutes a day he said to you think about what is more important sending another text message or meditating for ten minutes. He went on to relate a little story about something i think i think we're all familiar with in this culture. He said just last week. I was on the street car and i saw this man in his car sending text messages and smoking a cigarette and also sipping on coffee. He was doing four things at the same time driving texting smoking and drinking in coffee. I thought to myself. Why isn't that a bit stressful. Trying to four things at once i could see was stressed out. That's why he was smoking because he was tired. That's why he was drinking coffee. Rimpoche as point was that we need to double check our priorities to make sure we're spending each minute of our lives aligned with what we consider important. I'm currently in a one month class with the todo. Institute called taking action finish finishing the unfinished or on started. It's the class i promoted in my last asked episode with gregg creech in this class we each select the project in each of the classmates select their own project to work on through the month. The trick is to pick something that you will focus your energy ad it isn't so much that you will focus and do nothing else but that you will maintain your focus on it every day. If only four five minutes a day he has each student poster project it status te obstacles else to it why it's important and what you cope to give up to keep focused on it and your hopes for the course overall he he also. Has you do something a little scary. He has you calculate how many days you have left to live in that calculation exercise. He cautions that it may be hazardous to your comfort zone. This is the exercise which i'll share on my website for those of you brave enough to take a peek of course none of us know when we will actually die but the average number of days we can expect to live is thirty thousand thirty thousand thousand days assuming for the moment that you will have an average life expectancy calculate how many days you have left to live. You get this figure by by calculating how many days you've already lived and then subtract that figure from thirty thousand he didn't points to a time and date calendar found on the internet to help calculate that exact date so for those of you wondering about how many days i have it's five thousand eight hundred injured and forty as of wednesday march sixth no one we really look in the face of our own mortality and realized that we have have a relatively small number of days to live it. Fine tunes are focused on what is really important thinking about what is really important can change the course of your actions the project i i decided to for this course this month was to make a little more progress s. on the book. I'm writing. The book is called making every day better everyday buddhism tips and tricks and yes. This is a promotion wink wink. I'm hoping to have it published by early. Midsummer burly to midsummer of course the book is a priority and it is really important but i have a great project manager who set up a schedule for me and i've kept on or ahead of schedule so it's going well. I could could always make more progress but it's going well so i got thinking about what i would regret not doing. If my life was coming to an i and i thought about the big accomplishments i've been doing since last year starting writing hosting distributing and promoting this podcast starting in hosting a facebook songa based on the podcast reading who many books to count to prepare for podcast interviews writing my i book and expanding the coaching segment of my career coaching and resume writing business because of all these quote unquote urgent danes. I seem to do all these urgent things. I have to do to accomplish this commitment the part of me that loves music and loves playing playing music gut lost. I don't want to die without playing more music. My hopes for making this. My core project is is to have a more balanced life. I do meditate almost every day. Do spiritual reading but music has always had a wonderful influence on on me calming me getting me out of my head and opening my heart wider to include more play enjoy although i hope for many more days than that five thousand eight hundred forty but then days i have left. I intend to have a little more fun with music. While i am accomplishing the other things i've said my goals but back again to the levine's in the tricycle magazine article andrea talked act of the year to live practice and how in talking to people on their deathbeds they would frequently here. I wish i had taken a job for the love of the work not for money or i wish i had played and enjoyed myself more and that's what she says she says quote. The beauty of of the practice is that we can evaluate our lives even before we're on our deathbed. If we are not living the life we wished to live well well. How can we change that now while they're still time unquote and she adds quote i can say this because i have cancer and yeah i know that once you get that diagnosis no matter how much you already know something happens everything becomes much more real ironically ironically. It brings greater permission to be fully alive. I find it very exciting. Unquote the other beauty of the practice of thinking thinking about death. I think is that it fine tunes our awareness that were all in the same boat. The boat did only average is thirty thousand days on both the rough waters and the gentle rolling waves of life when we remember that's all of us our hearts expand and the compassion for others in this little boat of ours increases we wish that they would all experience gentle rolling waves saves but feel tenderness tenderness toward them knowing that they have had and we'll have to face scary whitewater moments in life life you know i thought i'd doing this podcast episode. Because of my grandmother i was named margaret wendy hale it in honor of my grandmother. I was given her first name margaret even though my family always called me wendy and i've been wendy ever since i was very close to my grandmother so i kept an m. as my person i initial throughout my life. I believe my grammar there is much of the inspiration behind my love of writing and my love of words. I spent most afternoons visiting my grandmother after school as as an elementary school kid my grandmother lived in a huge house just up the street from us in a little town in ohio during those afternoons we would not not i would watch her soap opera with her or we would play the dictionary game or read the birth announcements and the obituaries in the regional regional newspaper and then we'd create stories of the lives of the new babies and the lives of those who recently passed the dictionary game was that she would read word and i would guess the meaning and try to spell it or i would read a word and she would try to spell and guest the meaning birth announcements. Do they even have those in small town regional newspapers anymore. I don't imagine so and actually i don't even imagine there are many small town newspapers left at all but reflecting on these activities i did with my grandmother. It reminds me of the teachings of technet han about the nature of no birth and would death my grandmother and i imagine the lives of those just coming in those going or is tit. Not heim would probably say no coming ming no going all a continuum and all interconnected this book end quote unquote practice of reading others lives and deaths deaths formed a sort of river of life in my mind the continuum that tibidot han talks about although i don't think i realized it or even knew it at the time or even much later that the practice i did with my grandmother made others lives very real for me. You know my grandmother wasn't buddhist. She was methodist. She was much more about the store wheat. The story we told each other about the lives we read about but the interconnection the sameness within the differences of each life that was cemented in me in this practice in the book fear essential wisdom for getting through the storm by tibia tan. He writes quote. The cloud cannot become nothing thing. It is possible for a cloud to become rain or snow or hail but it's not possible for cloud to become nothing. That's why the view you of annihilation as a wrong view so birth and death are paired notions like coming and going permanence and annihilation l._a. Shen self and other the cloud appearing in the sky is a new manifestation before assuming the form of a cloud the cloud was water water vapor produced from water in the ocean and the heat of sunlight. You could call that her previous life so being a cloud is only a continuation. There is no birth there was only a continuation that is the nature of everything no birth no death for many of us these notions of birth and death coming and going 'cause our greatest pain. We think the person we loved came to us from somewhere and is now gone away somewhere but when conditions are sufficient we manifest in a particular way when conditions are no longer sufficient. We no longer manifest in that way. This doesn't mean that we don't exist. If we're afraid of death it's because we don't understand that things do not really die. They continue to exist in many forms their spirit goes on therefore when we look look deeply into ourselves into our body our feelings and our perceptions when we look into the mountains and rivers or another person we have to be able to see and touch the nature of no birth and death in them. This is one of the most important practices in the buddhist tradition in permanence unquote. You know my death. Meditation practice continues to this day by reading pichu aries noticing how some people die very very old over a hundred years old sometimes sometimes very very young as babies some die of disease some of old age sometimes we don't know of what some have lists of accomplishments in their obituaries some have lists of family members yet. We all die in today's rochester democrat raton chronicle obituaries we know the friends and family are morning willy richard howley lillian mary lou andrew john johanna marie kathleen ernest henry by june margaret karen judy flora damian adele blanche stephen michael and many more their ages ranged from thirty six to one hundred into into dying from sudden and long illnesses old age and exits it seems like coming and going from illnesses and accidents but as tit not han reminds us. It is a manifesting in a different way. The cause of death is birth and we know that it will happen to us. When we don't know rich poor young old we try try to forget but we should always remember willie holly karen damien and michael remember them. We are them. We are always passing through manifesting in different ways all the time every second remembering that will help us remember to use every second for good purpose and remind us to smile at the person next to us in the checkout. It could be their time or ours soon if this seems like something. You'd like to try. You know obituary reflection. Shen seems like a good everyday buddhism approach to death meditation. Let me know if you do try it and how it worked for you. You can post something on my public luke facebook group or you can send me a private message through the page everyday buddhism on facebook or message revive my website at everyday dish buddhism dot com on that website. I've posted links to an article in the current issue of tricycle on a good enough enough death. What does it look like to die well. I've also posted the link that to the article i referred to in this episode from buddha weekly and i posted the link to amazon to fortinet hans book fear that i referred to in the episode as well. That's it for today's episode. Thank you for joining me. Thanks to everyone who listens to the podcast comments on my website or the public facebook group and the new private facebook book study group and all of you who donate to help me keep the content written produced and distributed. If i haven't replied to your messages yet i will try to reach out with a private email of thanks but if you're anxious you can connect with me through my dharma to go forum for for small donation. You will be guaranteed. Timely personal answer to your question dharma to go can be found at dharma dash to dash rush. Go dot com or through the dharma to go tab on my website. Please consider supporting my work helping to sponsor more more great activities and continuing podcast through a recurring or one time donation through the donate tab on my website every day a dash buddhism dot com so until next time. Keep making your every day as better.

facebook margaret wendy hale tricycle magazine stephen Shen buddha weekly cancer india andrea levin stephen michael marcus aurelius stokes flu mohammad irvin project manager duca bennett
Hungry, Hungry Hippocampus

Hidden Brain

27:47 min | 1 year ago

Hungry, Hungry Hippocampus

"This is hidden brain. I'm shocked at Danton Greatest. Put Sarah and David Reza recently bought a place outside of Washington. DC they sound excited because this is the first time they're hosting both our families we are making today of vegetable Totta with tomato Basil and goat cheese. We've got home fries. We've got regular waffles. Sarah and David wanted to start a new tradition. Cook brunch with ingredients from the Home Garden. The Humvees have rosemary from our garden and the Furtado has basil from our garden. This is Sara's way of going back to her family's roots. She remembers her mother doing the very same thing and I remember growing up. My mom had a garden and she would always come back with like these tiny little tomatoes and be like I provided for my family look family. I grew this and we're like yeah. That's the smallest tomato ever but there's something about being able to grow stuff and being able to give it to people that you love. That's pretty exciting. So Yeah my grandmother would always say that this is Sara's brother Zach. This sharing food is important but I say the most important part is being around the table in the food was the lert food kept us there. Yes exactly food Dorados together but it was the company in the conversation today on hidden brain the profound role that food plays in our lives. Food is not just nutrition that goes in your mouth or even pleasant sensations that go with it. It's it's it connects to your whole life will look at the culture and psychology to determine what we eat what we spit out and when we come back from war this message comes from. NPR SPONSOR TIAA committed to the idea that while most things in life run. How'd from clean shirts in the morning to a favorite dessert at night? Lifetime income in retirement shouldn't learn more at Tiaa dot org slash. Never run run out. Support also comes from Google fi a phone plan by Google made with features that people actually want learn more about the benefits of switching to Google fi at five dot. Google DOT COM. Paul Rosin has been studying the psychology and cultural food for more than forty years. He works at the University Rushdie of Pennsylvania early in his career. Paulhan himself pondering a question that few of US my thing to ask why so many people across the world enjoy the hot stinging pain off Chili peppers. This question took Paul to a small village in Mexico which really peppers were as common as salt and pepper in the united it states laid on their food tastes good without it and the little kids don't like it so something happens somewhere between two and five years of age at the meals where everybody adult is eating hot pepper and the older children are and they're all enjoying it and a little kid is thinking it's terrible terrible and after a while some magic occurs and the little kids like it so I thought well there are a number of possible accounts some accounts involves something fundamentally biological and presumably the biological explanation would be if you start eating it long enough you'll eventually you're just gonNa like it for biological reasons. Yes that's right. The brain compensates for all sorts of things we adapt to things. This is a case of more than adaptation. Where you turning something that's negative? Get into something positive. I mean to me. That's an amazing thing that we can start with something that's neatly negative and make it really positive so I said let's take a look at the animals animals in the village because the dogs and pigs eat Mexican food they're eating tacos and hot sauce and beans and all of that stuff so I went around the village. I I asked people. Do you have any dogs pigs that like hot pepper and they said what are you crazy. I said we're all I mean. They eat it they said. That's that's ridiculous I said. Would you mind if I give the dogs a little piece of cracker with some hot sauce on it and without and see what they choose so they said go ahead and so I did we go round the village with pigs and dogs. I put up one cracker in front of them with hot pepper sauce. And another without and I'd see what they did and it turns out that none none of them eighth hot pepper. I they all eight the one without pepe. 'cause they're hungry but their first choice was the one without hot pepper so that I couldn't find an animal in the village which that did what everyone over five years old in humans did which was the Goblin stuff out on preferred. So that said suggested to me that back it seems to be uniquely human and so this is not just a question of people getting used to it and getting to like it because the dogs and pigs are reading the garbage. The garbage is laced with chilli peppers. If that was the case that would be true for the animals as well so what was happening in the humans in the human brain if you will that allowed five year old children to fall in love with Chili peppers send capterra canine cousins from liking it. Well that's that's indeed exactly the question. We don't know how this happens. But we do know that where it happens at the meals where the kids are eating with their parents and their older siblings and they keep eating it because the social pressure to eat it now the animals keep keep eating it too because they're hungry so it can't be just that they keep eating it so it's really to me a miracle and what I realized is that it's a miracle that that takes place in humans all over the world not just about hot pepper is also about liking coffee which is bitter and people don't like it originally and they're like and it goes outside outside the food domain people like to go on Roller coasters now. A roller coaster is a very negative experience. The first time you have it right you think you're crashing to death and your heart is pounding and yet people pay to do this. Can you imagine a dog paying to go on a roller coaster. I mean it just won't happen happened so we found that as a whole range of things in which humans enjoy but is originally negative and they come to enjoy it as positive. This includes the Fatigue League of running it includes said movies and includes being afraid in horror movies. This seems to be only humans so our thought and it's only thought what is that what you are enjoying. The very fact that their body thinks that something is bad but they know it's okay we call it benign masochism the human have the special ability to appreciate the fact that they know that something that their body is saying is bad is actually good and we have evidence for that so so for example for Chili Pepper. The favourite degree of hotness is just below the level of unbearable pain. They're pushing as far as they can to get their body to really screen. Get this Outta here and yet no that it's okay so it seems to be a very general feature of humans which we tapped into by asking asking water. A couple of billion people like hot pepper so in some ways. That theory is that you start out not liking it and then social pressure if you will convince so you to try it and then you try it off enough that your body learns to adapt to it a little bit but then eventually you start to like it for actually a slightly different than you're no longer liking it just because of the peer pressure. The social interactions. You lighten because it gives you a sense that you're coming close to the edge of something. Thrilling is at the argument. Yes there's something thrilling that is not threatening right right so for example if something is threatening you don't get to like it Like people don't get to like serious pain. It has to have something of the sense of. It's not really really threatening and even becomes funny so in the case of disgust. People don't like discussing things right but they make exceptions they eat smelly achieves and they come to like that smell in the context of the Geez even though their body is saying. Get this out of your mouth. It's thinks you once performed an experiment on in yourself. You were with your wife. I believe at a Korean restaurant in New York City and you did an interview with. NPR back in two thousand fifteen while you told the reporter that it was one of the hottest things you've ever eaten. Tell me that story. Well my Wife at the time was a cookbook writer. So we're very interested in cuisine. We went to a Korean restaurant New York and the people around this they were ordering some dish that we didn't recognize so we said to the waiter we would like that and he says you don't want that no we said we really like to try new foods. Says you don't want to try that food. So this went on and we one of course and he brought this dish and it was unbearably hot and we ate it because we were chained into eating it by our own insistence that it was a good. I've another the story of a different sort. It also happened in New York. I had a colleague who had a dog and the dog eat dog poop so they were going to Washington Square Park Park and with the dog and the dog. Just hunt out a dog poop and eat it. It was just awful. They hated it at dog smelled so they went to a vet and the vet said. Why don't you put hot pepper on the dog poop because dogs don't like hot pepper so they go into Washington? I want you to get this image. Barbara's holding the dog on a leash and her husband goes with a Shaker of hot pepper finds a dog turn and seasons it in front of everybody with all this hot pepper I mean the idea of some seasoning dog journeys really pretty good and then they let the dog go and the dog ate it and the dog stop eating dog poop. No because the dog like dog poop more than it is like the hottest you know. People will put up with pain to do something they really like right. Just as Paula show under the sense of taste is shaped by the brain. He's also done work. That shows the same thing for appetite in one study. He said a meal down before patients who had amnesia. The general view in most of the people who work on hunger is that hunger comes when your body reserves or low. Maybe Blood Glucose as low various hormones. Come out and you feel the sensation of hunger and you eat until it disappears. Now there's some truth in that of course but there are many other higher order things so for example the cultural definition of what a meal is very important. After you've finished meal and have dessert you stop eating so to try to show this we dealt with the two amnesiac patients who had totally amnesic. They didn't remember anything that it happened. More than thirty seconds ago but they were quite intact otherwise so we fed them lunch. It situation they were in a room without a clock doc and we said lunchtime and it was lunch time. We brought them favorite lunch of this. We'd ask them what their lunch was. And they of course aid it then. We took the plate away. There was no more signs lines that they'd eaten and ten minutes later. We brought another large and said lunchtime and they all eight it three times each the second lunch completely. Then we took that away way way to ten minutes and brought a third lunch each of these full-sized lunches and most of the time they ate the third lunch twice. I think one of them said I'm getting a little stuffed. The meeting their stomach was really getting full. But the point was that they're eating you serve the meal it's a difference looks palatable so you tend to eat it. I've been on a plane once flying to Chicago at three in the afternoon. They serve the full lunch now. Everyone had eaten lunch already. But six hundred eighty nine people who could see eight that lunch because it was lunch and it was food and look good probably wasn't good airplane food but Eight it so a lot of what we do is we eat when there's good food around and when the situation is appropriate now if we had left their first lunch and they saw the plate in front of them with there was pieces of chicken boat. They might have realized that I've just eating and we give people normal people a second meal in the same way I just described. They don't say I'm not hungry. They say I just ate. So it's fascinating because I think what you're saying really is that memory plays a huge role in whether we think Hungary yes being hungry. Only one reason that we eat so if you go for a full dinner halfway through that you're not hungry anymore but you're still eating the rest of the meal. That's that's right. So hunger can institute meals. The lack of it will probably discourage you from eating more but there are other things that influence you to When we come back one of those things is the role that culture plays in our experience of food results? And Look at how you can solve more memorable meals stay with us this message comes from. NPR sponsor smartwater. Smart Water is for the curious drinkers. The ones who were always looking for ways as to make things a little bit better. That's why smart water created to you. Ways to hydrate smart water alkaline with nine plus Ph and smart water antioxidant with added Selenium and now you can order smart water by saying Alexa Order. Smart Water Smart Water. That's pretty smart. Support also comes from Lexus. This to Lexus. You are their greatest curiosity because they believe the most amazing machines aren't inspired by machines. They're inspired by. I people which leads them to ask different questions. More human questions and the answers are as inspiring as you are so you may be curious. What type of ideas will you inspire next? Discover the answers to these questions and more at lexus dot com slash curiosity some time ago one of our producers attended you to dinner for Ramadan and if tower at an apartment in Washington. DC Ramadan the ninth month of the Islamic calendar and commemorates commemorates the first revelation of the Koran to the Prophet Mohammad. Food plays an important role during Ramadan for thirty days. Muslims like Esma uh-huh Rudy fast from sunrise to sunset as a way to practice self discipline and to reflect on that connection to their faith not being able to eat they and then coming and having that meal grateful for right. You'll have deliberately going without food. Tasneem Archaic Says Hunger. Anger can make people mindful about the role that food plays in their lives. He's he narrated are saying that you should fill your stomach with three things one third for food one for drink and one third for air and so. I'm always thinking about that. Especially after a long day of fasting because it's a natural instinct to just put three thirds full of Food and I'm keeping that in mind constantly reminding myself to always room to probably breathe breaking the fast comes with its own rituals. So it's really I think. A communal experience you fast almost every single night with friends and family and you go to the mosque afterwards. Many Muslims it if dr dinners aren't just breaking a fast. There are enacting and reinforcing. Their sense of identity Ramadan illustrates the profound role. Food plays in shaping our cultural behavior and how culture in turn can shape the way we think of food. And that's the case for acme Assad food is just like the glue that holds a lot of cultures together You know when I'm like looking around the room right now and there are people from high like seven or eight different countries So it's one of those things it's like you appreciate other Cultures Cultures Any appreciate I think the oneness of of you know what we are and stands for his whole psychologist. Colleges Paul Rosen has spent many decades examining the interplay between food identity and culture. Food is not just nutrition that goes in your mouth or even pleasant sensations that go with it. It's connects to your whole life. And it's it's it's really a very important part of performing your a culture and experiencing your culture when Paul ask people about their favorite meals. They certainly mentioned eating a great restaurants but the also talk about meals with friends and family only the one we just heard about a very common answer. That's very short For a whole meal every Christmas Eve my Italian grandfather and grandmother Grandmother would cook a meal consisting of Creamy carbon our with bacon pieces throughout homemade spinach pies and sausage. It was always amazing. Now that's a lovely one right and it's it's not fancy but you can see the emotion and the pleasure of it and it's connected of course to the pleasure of family not just the pleasure yes. It's very social another one. The best meal I ever had in my life was when I got out of jail. Heavy been in jail for three years and eating prison. Prison food was horrible. When I got out I got a hardee's Frisco Burger Combo meal? That was the Best Burger and fries. I've ever had okay so so. That's the context. It's a release from bad eating so the contrast is so important. Their in contrast in context can also be important when it comes to thinking about an individual mia consider the difference between a top style meal and a meal that's built around one on large entree in both cases. You can fill up your stomach but it turns out these have very different effects on your brain as social scientists have found most of us find it difficult to tell the difference between the Tenth Bite and the eleventh bite off the very same food a whole line of modern decision research almost associated with Daniel Conham GonNa Nobel Prize for it and he was showing that You know people are not so rational as you might right. Expect them to be and one of the features of it is called duration neglect. Which is people? Don't remember how long and experiences they just remember the experience so so if you had a pain for twelve hours or painful one hour two weeks later what you remember is the experience of the pain that how long it was so this apply clocked food. Means that if you have the same food a lot of the same food it won't be a very different memory from having a little of that same food because it's the memory of eating the food so this raises a very important question that originally brought up which is the distinction between your experience and your memory for the experience Conman Min and others have shown A. We've done some work on this to that. The ending of an experience is particularly important. So when you remember something you're more likely to remember the end of of it and also by the way to some extent more likely to remember the beginning of it and that would mean if you want to produce the best memory for food you should put the best foods at the beginning and the end whereas most people think the entrees the best wishes in the middle and is the least remembered we had Danny Conman on hidden brain. Recently and of course he talked about the peak android and also about the difference between the experiencing south in the remembering south and one of the implications of this as you point out this the difference between experiencing a means remembering MEA. Is it points to the difference between people who go to restaurants and order their favorite dish every time and people who go to a restaurant on an order a new dish every time these two strategies essentially catering to two different psychological impulses. That's an issue that we we have looked at and it's it's pretty clear if you're going to order your favorite food and you know you're gonNA order that before you go to the restaurant. There are actually three aspects as you anticipate at this comes from Cottam and the anticipation the experience of the memory. Your anticipation of a meal is going to be higher if you all your favorite food. 'cause you know you're going to have something great right whereas if you can order something new. It's not even clear what you can imagine because you don't know what it is at the meal itself. You're probably going to enjoy your favorite dish more than a new this because because it's one of their best issues you love it. There's a little risk in ordering something though. But you water your favorite this. You're not going to create a new memory whereas if you order a new food would you can create a new memory. We are looking at this but we don't know yet for sure if you're a person generally values memories then you're going to try to create more memories is by creating new experiences whereas if you value anticipation and experience more you will keep doing the same wonderful thing so how you value. You anticipate memory and experience affects. How you're going to choose what activities you do Let's just take an example massaged okay. I like massage. I go once the month. It's pretty much the same. I can't tell you last month's massage was exactly this. So I'm going for the anticipation and the experience. This which is very positive. I don't really create much memory from this and I do it. I like it but it's very different from the way I eat. We're always trying to say. I want to enrich my My my mental menu listing. You know my my life experience food but people differ on this. We've been interested in China. See if people can are consistently different. We don't know yet. Think of a seven day Caribbean vacation at a resort. Almost it's nothing happens right. You're feeling good. It's son is good. You go in the water. It's Nice but there's no people say. Tell me about your vacation. It's going to be a very short thing right so there's two kinds of vacations. What those that are really high on experience and vacations that will give you a lot of experience? But they'll also be some mchardy chip you'll get tired. Something may not work. Something might be closed when you thought it was open. All kinds of things can happen so it won't be totally positive experience but but it will be a bunch of good memories. You've thought a lot about the differences between the American attitude toward food and the French attitude toward food. And you say that the the French are more focused on what happens in the mouth and Americans are often more focused by what happens in the bloodstream. I WanNa play a short movie clip. That illustrates this idea. Wow this isn't diner girl. Can I get you guys. What can I get here? That has no sugar. No carbs and his fat free water so that was from the movie a Cinderella Story Pot. And I'm wondering if you can just talk a little bit about this. The the American attitude toward food versus versus the French attitude to what food I go to France a fair amount and they seem to be enjoying the food more than we were and interestingly enough there marginally healthier than we are. I mean. It's not a big difference but they live a little longer and have less heart disease and yet they eat a diet. That's higher animal fat than we do. It's okay if we're worrying worrying about food and the consequence of that is that we're gonNA live longer but we seem to be worrying about food and not living longer so that seems like a bad exchange so we started a study of how French and Americans differ in the way they eat and species got two parts to it one is how they think about food and the other is just how their food world is set up at the French. Think about food is oral experience. They think about eating as something that is giving them pleasure are they don't tend to think about what's going into their bloodstream. How much sugar is in their animal fat? So they're getting more pleasure out of food because they're not worrying about it so for example the French when you think of heavy cream do you think of whipped or unhealthy. They will say usually he whipped and Americans will say unhealthy now. It's the same thing but they're thinking about as an experience and we're thinking about it more as a health event and in some ways that actually might be a good thing right because presumably when you take more pleasure in food. You're focused on it. You're not necessarily just focused on getting stuff in your mouth. Or focusing on nutrition attrition. The French for example seem to pay more attention to portion control than Americans except that. I don't know if they're thinking about this as control thinking about this as the enjoyment of food and once I'm done enjoying this bite I'm done with it. Well they eat more slowly first of all so they have more mouth experience because they don't swallow as quickly they savor the food so I mean if you have a chocolate bar you can you know bolted down in a couple of minutes so you can make ten fifteen minute experience out of it. And they're more inclined to the ladder We actually were able to measure how in McDonalds in Paris. How long people said a- and eat compared to McDonald's in the United States okay and we made sure they were French people in McDonalds? They were talking French. The French people sitting at McDonald's sit there for longer than the American people said in McDonald's so they're they're eating more slowly. They're talking more you know they're not just bolting down. Food food is not fuel. Americans often not always treat food as fuel whereas the French think about it not as a fuelling but as an event and experience now in in the food world the big difference between the French and Americans is portion size. French traditionally served smaller portions. If you look at a French cookbook. The amount of meat for four people per person is less than an American cookbook in McDonalds in France. The portions are smaller now. A few remember the discussion of the fact that you eat. What's in front of you if it's pleasant the and these bases the French put less food in front of you? And so they're eating less and enjoying it more and that seems to me to be a good formula. Now they have other features of the French meal is a much more elaborate event. People don't get up especially stay at home. They don't get up in the middle of the meal and just leave the table. Everybody eats the same thing. So it's it's a social event so I would say the French inch deal with food well in the face of the modern world where. There's so much good food around can easily stuff ourselves eat everything they are. They have managed Sabah tradition which keeps it moderate and very pleasant. Paul Rosen has been studying the psychology and cultural food for over forty years. His is currently at the University of Pennsylvania. Paul thank you for joining me today on Hidden Bray with bit a pleasure This episode was produced by Thomas Lou and edited by Tara boil on team includes Johnny Schmidt. Part Shah Raina Cohen and Laura Chorale armies are set to march on their stomachs so turns out our podcast. Teams are unsung heroes. This Week on Marco Monterey Okay Janice McLean and Jeff Dewey's at NPR's cafeteria soundbites on days. You hear a pep in my voice. It's probably because of one of Jeff's Omelettes. Thank you Marco Janice Jeff and all of your colleagues. I'm Sean Covey Phantom and this is NPR. Our planet money answers all kinds of questions like why. The price of COQ didn't change for seventy years whether cities are overrated. And what we should be worried about the economy planet money from N._p._R.. Listen now.

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S10: Infamous: The Hashashins Pt. 1

Parcast Presents

38:31 min | 3 months ago

S10: Infamous: The Hashashins Pt. 1

"They feared no-one eluded everyone and killed in the shadows. Of Fastens was born out of political turmoil, and its members were out for revolution. If you enjoyed today's episodes, head over to secret societies to hear more like it. New episodes release every Thursday free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. Something to note all of the groups covered on this show operate in secret. The details included in this episode are based on extensive research, but ultimately can never be one hundred percent verified except by society members themselves. On October fourteenth ten, ninety, two, the court of the Seljuk Sultan was traveling to the palace in Baghdad on the road from Isfahan. The Sultan's Chief Minister Neeson look lounged in a pillow glitter carried by his guards. The road was dangerous, but any road in time of war would be the cell jook empire was in the midst of a heated conflict with a group of religious fanatics. It was up to Neeson. I'll mulk to take the insurrection. Insurrection down as they approach Baghdad Nissan's caravan came to a halt of poor Sufi. Muslim man was waiting for them? He wanted a word with Nissam. The guards placed litter on the ground, so they could speak, but it was a trick. The Sufi man unsheathe a hidden dagger, and stabbed Nizam in the throat blood, sprayed everywhere, as Newsham fell to the ground, he stared into the eyes of his killer, who was smiling his dagger drenched in blood. The man was no Sufi he was one of the enemy. Radicals disciple love Hassani saw a member of the order of assassins. Hi I'm Vanessa Richardson Greg Olsen and this is secret societies apart cast original every Thursday we examine history's most exclusive organizations from around the world, and try to shine a light on the truth behind these mysterious groups from the alumina to the order of nine angles will explore how much impact each secret society actually had on the world around them. This is our first of two episodes on the order of assassins, an organization of extremist Muslims who feared nothing, not even death. They tormented Sunni Muslims and Christians. Christians during the Crusades in the Middle East instead of fighting in open combat, the assassins killed in the shadows this week will explore the origins of the order and the man who founded it Hassani Saba. He took advantage of political turmoil to a massive following of elite killers and create a new state will also examine some of the most infamous secrets, and the legends of what really went on inside their headquarters. The walled fortress Allah Mut Castle next week. We'll follow the order as new leadership radicalized. They narrowly survived an unending war against their suny Muslim enemies, even as Christian Crusaders invaded the area, but then the growing Mongol Empire helped put an end to one of the deadliest secret societies. The world has ever seen. Few Medieval organizations have had as story history as the order of assassins. You may have encountered. They're likeness in the popular two thousands video game series assassin's creed, but you may not know that before the order. The word assassination didn't exist. They're one of the most elusive organizations in history. Limited records led to the creation of legends, and before long the line, separating fact and fiction blurred tales of secret gardens, hidden daggers and assassins, jumping off buildings, just to prove their fearlessness have shocked us for more than a thousand years. Even their name is shrouded mystery. Assassin is the westernized version of the Arabic word Hasha Sheen. It comes from Sheesh type of cannabis popular in Persia and India. There are two leading theories on the origin of the name Hasha Sheen, some believe that members of the orders smoked psychoactive resin before venturing out to slay their enemies. Others believe that sheesh was used by their leader for mind control. Leader's legacy traces back over fourteen hundred years to the era of Prophet Mohammad. Mohammad is considered the founder of Islam. He began his ministry around the year six ten, when the Archangel Gabriel appeared to him, and told him that he would be a laws messenger, and for approximately twenty years Muhammed spread that message throughout Arabia through both peaceful and violent means, but at six thirty two Bahama died without naming a successor looking for direction Muslims. Turn to Abu Backer. Who Hamas father-in-law he'd been chosen by the Prophet to daily prayers when Mohammed was ill too many. This was a sign that Abu Bekir should be the new leader and soon he was elected Calif.. Calif more or less means deputy to the Prophet. It's important understand that one could ever replace Muhammad as the Prophet in Islam he's considered the final profit sent by Allah after Adam Noah Abraham Moses and Jesus, but it's the Calif job to lead the faith in his stead and. There's no real separation of church and state religion and politics one. Therefore a Calif wasn't just a religious leader. He was also the governing ruler of a body of people who were known as a caliphate, but in six thirty two. Not everyone agreed with the choice of Abu Baqer. Calif of faction of Muslims believed that Muhammed's cousin and son-in-law. A Li was the rightful successor. Their central argument was that I'll Lee shared Muhammad's blood while Abu Baqer did not. The disagreement caused a rift amongst the once unified group followers of Abu Baqer, became known as soon as those who chose Ali became known as Shiites after two decades of infighting and the beheading, a Muhammed's grandson. The Shiites and Sunnis formerly split a line was drawn in the sand, and Islam was never the same. But the Shiites had fewer numbers and thus less power for two hundred years, they lived under Sunni control, and in that time more splits occurred within their group, making it difficult to unify. One of those factions was the Miley Shiites. But everything changed in nine, zero nine, when an is mainly Shiite leader named Abu, Abdullah claimed he was the descendant of Fatima, the daughter of the Prophet Mohammed Bus. He was the true leader of the Muslims as we mentioned, the Shiites had a particular interest in bloodlines. The Fatimid Caliphate rose to power and built an army. They expanded through Africa Palestine, and eventually made Cairo their capital for more than a century. No Sunni group dared take on the formidable Fontham at army until group of Suny Turks known as the cell jokes banded together, and posed a serious threat, and it was during this period of political turbulence, that Hassani Sabaki created the order of assassins. Husani Sabha was born into one of the major branches of she ism called twelve or she ism near present day. Tehran though an exact date isn't known. It was sometime between ten forty and ten fifty five c. e at the time Persia was under Suny Souljah control and as a devout Shiite. Hassan was raised to hate them when he was about seventeen years. Old Hassan was introduced to a form of Shiite. Muslim teachings known as is Miley. She is or is mindless them through a low ranking die, direst sensually scholarly representatives of the faith who educated and invited others to convert by ten seventy two Hassan. Hassan had converted to is my lissome, and swore a loyalty oath to the fought amid caliphate and their air, Nasar. Nizara and Hassan grew close becoming friends six years later, he travelled to Cairo, where he completed his religious studies and became a die himself. No, it was Hasan's job to spread is smile ISM throughout the world. His mission was to create a singular nation under its message, and Hassan was more than up to the near impossible task, but he had hesitations about his leaders. His time in Cairo gave him insight on the growing weakness of the Fatimid, Caliphate they weren't doing enough to expand their power. Plants the cell jokes had slowly taken control in Persia and Syria he expected more resistance from the fought meds, so decided to take action into his own hands around ten eighty one Hassan left Cairo and headed east to preach is my listen throughout the land, and he had tremendous success. The Cell Juke conquest of Persia and Syria had left. All Shiites, not just is Majlis disenfranchised. Hassan traveled through the land, many of the downtrodden clung to him as the revolutionary leader, they needed to end suny oppression. He collected a devoted following of men who were tired of sitting on the sidelines. It was time to bring the fight to the Celtics. It was time for an insurrection. Hassan just needed a base of operations somewhere he could conduct his war on the cell jokes, and by ten eighty eight. He'd picked one out alum Mut castle. Located six thousand feet above sea level in the Alborz mountains northern. Iran Alamos Castle was a nearly impenetrable fortress. There was only one very difficult way in through a narrow gorge along the river. No Army could gain entrance. Any ordinary means it was the perfect base, but there was one big problem. It belonged to their enemies. The cell jokes trying to besiege it with a traditional attack would be suicidal. Hassan may have had a loyal following, but his numbers were nothing compared to the cell jokes, so he took a different approach, slow and steady for almost two years, Hassan or his followers to convert locals and nearby villages. Once he amassed enough of a following. He sent a few to infiltrate Alamo. Posing as Sunni believers once inside, they started to convert the SAL jokes finally in September ten ninety Hassani Saba was smuggled into Alamo Castle there was no need to seize control because he was essentially already in control, he had the numbers the Seljuk commander after seeing that his men were no longer loyal, apparently just left quietly. Some sources say that Hassan even paid this held commander three thousand gold dinars for his troubles. Ironically, many historians consider this peaceful takeover to be the official beginning of the order of assassins. There was no secret meeting. No blood oath sworn. They just quietly usurped a castle in the Iranian mountains. The order quickly expanded their reach, spreading the word of this Melissa, converting more recruits and acquiring more castles after two years of missionary work, assange orders started to threaten the cell Juke. Salton may the. There's a growing insurrection in his empire. So the Sultan ordered his political adviser knees amount Mulk to attack. These was more than happy to do so interestingly, according to legend Hassan and Nissan have once been friends. They allegedly met while studying in Cairo, but after a bitter falling out, the two became enemies, and both men wanted the other dead. In ten ninety two new psalm, the cell jokes attacked L. Vote and another assassin fortress card Koa Stong. The hope was to exterminate the order in one fell swoop before anything got out of hand. Unfortunately for the cell Jukes, the order of fastens repelled the attack, despite being outnumbered largely to the strength of their fortresses, but Hassan worried the assassins couldn't hold off another Seljuk assault. He didn't want to take the chance he had to go on the offensive. Not long after the first wave of attacks on Alamo. Milk was on the road from Isfahan toback dad, he was approached by a member of the order of assassins named boot to hear Irani. was disguised as a Sufi man, and when the time was right, he plunged a dagger into Nissan's body killing him on the spot the death of Zombie. I'll milk is widely regarded as one of the first, if not the first official assassinations by the order, and it changed everything, but few weeks later, the leader of the cell jokes Sultan Maleek shod under unknown circumstances the pair. Pair of deaths through the subject Turk Empire into civil war. It was a turning point and a lesson for the order of precisely placed dagger could be just as effective as an all out war, then two years later Hassan's friend and heir to the fought timid caliphate. Ms Nizara was murdered in a plot orchestrated by an imperial advisor. Alaw Dow Nizara was the last thing. To a branch of Islam that he believed wasn't doing enough, so Hassan began his own sect naming it after his deceased friend. NASAR IS SMILE ISM with this Hassan and the order of assassins severed ties with the amid caliphate. They became their own state free to spread their message as he pleased one assassination at a time, he would paint the sand read. Coming up the secrets and mysteries of the order of assassins now back to the story. In ten ninety five, the order of assassins officially broke ties with the failing fought amid caliphate now revolutionary leader Hassani Saba was able to conduct his holy war against the Suny sell jokes, and any other faction that stood in his way. This holy war was centuries in the making tensions dated as far back as the sunni-shiite split in the mid six hundred. The assassins were in. In a Smiley Shia group and their central mission called Dowa was to spread his smile ISM and create an Smiley Kingdom as we mentioned many branches of Islam including soon as ISM followed Calif, but in Smiley tradition they followed an imam. Imams exist in every form of Islam there typically considered prayer leaders, but in she is there much more due to the concept of Tulum. In a nutshell, Talim is the idea that imams are the direct representatives of Allah and Muhammad on earth. They're the true successors of the Prophet Muhammad chosen by. And thus divine in the order of assassins Hassani Sobar was their Imam, and while most of assange writings are lost to history, we know for certain that he heavily reinforced the Shia concept of time, so Hussam became something of a mystical figure, the person who could bring salvation and lead his people to Paradise and the Imams mission or Dowa was to convert more souls along the way, so when he rose to power, it was time to expand his reach beyond Persia. Hassan new the task before him wasn't going to be easy, he lacked. Or a Standing Army in Persia. The Shiite population still paled in comparison to the Sunnis sell joke, or otherwise largely because facades branch of Islam was seen as particularly radical but Hasan had already proven that numbers weren't everything he doubled down on strategy, especially the art of assassination to be clear, even though the word assassin comes from the order, the act of targeted precision killing wasn't invented by Hassani. Sabah historian kind me, Hill and archaeologist Harold Meller believed that the first political assassination happened in the bronze age thousands of years before the order was ever even formed in fact in the Middle East three Islamic catalysts worth dated before Hassan ever took political power, but for Hassani Saba assassination was the ultimate tool. Tool against his foes, it denied his enemies. Something wanted glory for the soldiers leaders, dying in battle, was honorable, dying in your sleep at the hands of a single man wasn't and of course, assassination was effective historian. James Wasserman notes since Islamic culture placed a high premium on individual excellence, the leader who was able to rise up and survivors, acquisition of power, was attested individual bus death was often sufficient enough to alter substantially the balance of power political murder also had the added benefit of paranoia in a world rife with assassinations. Your enemy is always on edge. Death can strike at any moment a walk in the streets dinner with family preparing for bed. It was psychological warfare as much as physical warfare. But Hassan never carried out these assassinations himself. In fact, legend has it that once he took control of the L., Mood Castle and September ten ninety. He never left, he never needed to. He could eliminate his enemies from the comfort of his chambers, and he could implicitly trust his followers to do his bidding. He turned them into elite killing machines by instilling total loyalty. The men who joined the order of assassins were volunteers. They were never pressed into service. They were called Fi. Di, which literally means devotee. They joined for a variety of reasons for some it was protection. The order offered safety from the subjects and other threats, but for others joining the order was more spiritual, they were looking for a way into Paradise in Islam Paradise or Jena is the afterlife reward for leading fearing and pious life on earth, and by the one thousands, the concept of paradise was a powerful motivator for the assassins. Assani Sabha was the gatekeeper to Paradise, and he was promising entrance sooner rather than later so long as they gave their lives to his cause. Martyrdom wasn't a new concept for Shia Muslims, but rarely had been weaponized when an assassin was given a mission, they never intended to return. It was no mistake that they were only given daggers for their murders. It required that they get within inches of their target given that most of their targets were heavily guarded, escape was almost impossible and death was certain. But for members of the order, the Fi di, the active carrying, and then being killed, became a sought after religious experience assassin historian Bernard Lewis writes for the smileys. The assassins were the court elite in the war against the enemies of the Imam by striking down oppressors and usurpers. They gave the ultimate proof of their faith and loyalty, and during the mediate and. Bliss there's a famous story of a mother who wept with joy. When she heard that her son had carried out a successful assassination, she assumed that he died in the process and had gone to paradise when her son returned home, alive and healthy, she wept in shame, which goes to show the all encompassing power of faith and achieving that sort of conviction took training. According to both of Strasbourg who visited Syria in eleven, seventy five assassin indoctrination started young and involved heavy isolation. You learned a variety of languages like Latin and Greek and other techniques to blend in. The most important aspect of your education was to learn obedience to your master. Only unquestionable devotion was achieved. Were you ready and when that time came were called before the grand master. Hassan himself and took part in a ceremony. You would never forget. It begins with Hassani so boss standing before you in the grandmasters chamber. The founder of your order the Rightful Messenger to Alah for some time now he's promised you. Paradise and today marks the beginning of your passage there he hints Your Cup and Instructs you to take a sip. You don't ask what's inside. You prove your obedience. You ignore the bitter taste as it passes your lips and enters your body then suddenly you fall asleep. When you wake up, you're no longer in the grandmasters chamber. You're in a lush green garden. It's filled with trees and bushes. There's a river trickling nearby birds and insects hover making music all around you the garden of Paradise and it's exactly as the Prophet Muhammed described soon beautiful maidens appear carrying a bounty of fruits, milk, and honey for hours. They feed you. Treat you like a king. They tell you this is your reward for being faithful to the grand master and a law. This is what awaits you if you die for Hassan. But, your time in paradise can't last forever, not yet. One of the maidens hands you a AQAP. She orders you drink and you do. The next time you wake up, you're back at alum in the grandmasters chamber again he instructs you to describe what you just saw. And you do with enthusiasm when you finish the grandmasters, steps forward and asks you a question. If he promises to give you Paradise Again, will you obey his command? You fall to your knees and proclaim. Yes I will, and you mean it like you never have before. Then the grandmaster bids you rise before him. You are now an assassin. He places a golden dog in your hand and gives you a name. It's time to kill. Coming up the assassin's face retaliation and expand their order into Syria now back to the story. In ten ninety five, the order of the assassins separated from the fought timid caliphate, and created their own Islamic state based in Kassel Allah mood in modern. Day Iran because the orders leader. Hassani Saba didn't have the numbers to conquer enemies in war. He relied on his followers, unwavering devotion. He learned that one fearless assassin could be just as effective as an army of a thousand men, and he was said to create that loyalty through a drug induced ceremony known as the Garden of Paradise though. The Garden Paradise Ceremony is one of the most famous. Famous assassin legends historians question the truth behind it. Many the records we have on the order come from Europeans, who visited the Holy Land and they were likely heavily embellished and influenced by local rumors as assassin historian Farhadi Duff Dari notes in all likelihood. We'll never know the exact training process of the order. It was one of the most heavily guarded secrets they had rumors that Hassan Deception and drugs like hashish within the walls of alum, started circulating through Persia almost immediately, following the creation of the order, which may point to some inherent truth. But? We can't discount the likelihood that those rumors were started by the cell jokes or other Sudanese as a form of anti is miley propaganda. Other scholars believe that the garden of Paradise Legend is wrongfully attributed to Hassan that it was more likely created by a leader of the Syrian order of assassins Rashid Al Deen Synon- years later for know what's important is how these popular misconceptions might have been born. After Christian Crusaders arrived in Persia. And Syria they encountered the order of the assassins. Fascinated by the allegiance, the men had to their leaders that fascination sparked lor that may or may not have been based on, real events. By the time, the stories reached Europe. It was like a game of telephone. They were likely far from true. Interestingly, one of the men responsible for some of these rumors was Marco Polo the famous Italian explorer. He may have even spun the tail that the Garden of Paradise Legend dates back to Hassani, Saba, but Marco Polo was born one hundred thirty years after Hassan's death. The only time he ever interacted with the order of assassins was during their downfall. So even the most popular theories about the order like their use of hashish have to be questioned while they may have smoked the psychedelic resin recreationally. Evidence that Hasan administered it to his followers during training or that he used it as some sort of mind control for their missions historian James Waterson. That the assassination needed to be intelligent, adaptable and resourceful man, and being under the influence would have likely jeopardize their missions historian. Farhadi off. Tari emphasizes that the assassins under Hasan were sober. Sacrificing their lives was purely a matter of conviction, which is understandably a difficult concept to wrap your head around. It takes a lot of conditioning belief and resolve to achieve that state of mind. Such behavior was foreign to the Europeans. So it's no surprise that people searched for alternative explanations for how Assan achieved what he did, and his achievements were impressive. Intend ninety-six, the assassins took control of a second fortress geared coup castle located near Present Day Domgaan Iran, according to historian James Wasserman. The castle was taken in a similar fashion as Allah moot bloodlessly through espionage as the story goes, a member of the order infiltrated the castle posing as a cell joke. Eventually, he convinced the sultan to name him commander as commander. He fortified the castle, and the Celtics funded it. Then he declared he was a follower of Hassani, saw he welcomed the order inside, and they took control, but while geared coup castle fell easily other areas of Persia relisted the assassins. They met their first major obstacle when they tried to take root in the city of his. Local surrounding the stronghold word interested in what the assassins were preaching, when members of the order arrived, and began using their usual tactics of infiltration and conversion, the citizens banded together and slaughtered them what Hassan maintained his patients. He sent a high ranking officer. A die themed at tash in disguise as the local schoolteacher he believed attached would be more discerning and discreet, and he was right attached converted enough men to the assassins sect of Islam. NIZARA is Myla's them that the city would be taken without a single death assassin control of Behan was a major blow to the cell jokes. They were in the midst of a civil war. A civil war that the assassins would use in their favor. If you recall one of the first assassination at the hands of the order was the political advisor Nissan L. Mook not long after the Celtics Felton. Mainly Shah died tension only increased. One may leak Shah's sons Barky Roque and Muhammad to par each vied for power though Barky Roque was officially named Sultan his half brother Muhammed lead open revolts. Allegedly civil war hockey roque actually employed the assassins. Were for all intents and purposes his enemies, but he needed to remove his half brothers lieutenants, in fact, at least half of the assassinations ordered by Hassani Sabha were against Celtic Tiger whose deaths benefited Sultan Bark. Iraq eventually around eleven, hundred or eleven o one. Barkya, Roque managed to stop Muhammed's insurrection by bribing him with land, and once he no longer had a need for assassinations bark year Roque turned his attention to crushing the order. Sultan Barky Arocca may have been happy to use the assassins when they were convenient, but he'd grown tired of their presence in Isfahan and case. Don. So in eleven o four. He ordered his forces to attack a smileys throughout the region resulting in a brutal massacre. In, Response Hassan targeted sell joke, officers and military commanders throughout the region, his followers slipped into Celtic fortresses, and silently killed the men in charge, leaving their soldiers leaderless, but Hassan needed to stop their message from spreading as well the subjects suny spiritual leaders were speaking out against his mile him, so he sent his feet die to kill suny preachers anywhere they could. Even in mosques this was profane transgression of their faith something that even his enemies wouldn't expect and it worked, although we had superior numbers, Sultan Barky. Iraq called for a truce with the order. The details of their agreement are unclear, but of course historian James Wasserman the terms were beneficial to Hassan and his men. This is why Sultan Barky Arocca was heavily criticised for the deal. His people saw it as weakness, so the sultan broke, the truce, sent his armies out, and slaughtered his my least throughout his fajon and modern day Iraq it. It was a show of strength, but it never stopped in 11:05 Barky Roque died of unknown causes. His half brother. Mohammed was finally named. Sultan, he continued to fight the order of assassins who had killed so many of his men. small-scale attacks and assassinations raged on for years until eleven ten, then sell juke forces laid siege to alum Castle for eight years under Muhammad, the sell nukes tightened their stranglehold on Hassan and assassin leaders surrounded the order nearly starved to death, but they managed to hold on long enough for Muhammad par to die. Cornered and week Hassan saw Muhammed's death as an opportunity for the moment piece was his only chance for survival to rebuild, and just like that the siege was inexplicably called off the order of assassins retreated according to historian James Wasserman Hassan later sent Bassett to the new Sultan. A man named Sanjar to negotiate a ceasefire Sanjar promptly dismissed the messengers, refusing to listen to any offer. This happened again and again Hassan would dispatch his ambassadors to San Jars Court and each time they were turned away so Hassan decided to get creative. One morning when Sanjar woke up, he found an assassin's dagger planted in the ground next to his bed, not long after Hassan sent one last ambassador to the court. This time Sanjar allowed the assassin to speak, he delivered these words from Hassan did I not wish the sultan well that dagger, which was struck in the hard ground, would have been planted in his soft breast. The message was received. And clear the war was ended despite occasional skirmishes between the Celtics and Persians for the most part. There was peace in fact Sultan Sanjar even called upon the order of assassins when a coup was brewing his empire in the years after peace was declared, there are many records of assassinations by the order. The assassins were likely focused on reestablishing their political and religious control among local communities, except there was one murder that had been a longtime coming some unfinished business for the aging Hassan. In eleven twenty one to assassins traveled from Aleppo to Cairo, they snuck into the palace of the fought timid Calif seeking the K. lives political adviser, Alaw Dow, the same man who helped orchestrate the murder of Hassan's friend Nasar. This murder was the reason Hassan had separated, and created his own state, and the namesake for the assassins branch of Islam needs are is my lissome. Now Hassan was finally going to get his revenge twenty five years after his ours death to Hassan's feed is plunged their daggers into Alaw. Dow spilling his blood across the palace floor. It was one of the last major assassinations under Hassan's rule. In May eleven twenty four Husani Sabaot was struck with a fatal illness as he weakened, he named his most trusted General Boozer Goo mead as his successor and immed- promise to continue. Spreading Missouri is smile ISM across the world. It wasn't going to be easy to fill Hassan shoes. For years the leader the assassins had inspired a legendary devotion amongst his men, and he juggled attacks and strategies on countless Frantz in the ongoing holy wars, all allegedly from inside the Ele- moot, the survival of the order of assassins wasn't guaranteed behead enemies everywhere the subject Turks and the Fatimid Caliphate. In the midst of this uncertainty, Husani Saba died on May Twenty third eleven twenty four, he was almost eighty, and he passed peacefully inside the castle. He hadn't left in thirty five years during his reign as leader of the order of assassins, he'd perfected a new style of warfare a war in the shadows. According to James Watterson the order carried out roughly fifty assassinations on Hasan's command, but in the years that followed new leaders stepped into his shoes. Many of them were even more radical. They drove the order of assassins further into isolation and left a trail of blood in their wake. Thanks again for tuning into secret societies will be back next week with part. Two of the order of assassins will explore how the Persian assassin struggled in the wake of their leader's death, and how the Syrian assassins continued the holy war against the Sunnis, and later the Christians you can find all episodes of secret societies, and all other park has originals for free on spotify deleted leaders spotify already have. Have all your favorite music, but now spotify's making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals like secret societies for free from your phone, desktop or smart speaker to stream secret societies on spotify just open the APP and type secret societies in the search bar and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network. We'll see you next time. Secret societies was created by Max. Cutler and is a podcast studios original. It is executive produced by Max, Cutler. Nine by Michael Lang's ner with production assistance by Ron Shapiro Carly. Madden and Freddie Beckley. This episode of secret societies was written by Joe. Gara- with writing assistance by Maggie. Admire and stars Greg Poulsen and Vanessa Richardson.

James Wasserman Hassan Persia Mohammad Hassani Saba Hassan Deception Hasan Celtics Syria Cairo Calif Paradise James Wasserman murder ISM Sultan Sanjar Hassani Saba Middle East Isfahan Hassani Army
The Hashishans Pt. 1

Secret Societies

39:29 min | 5 months ago

The Hashishans Pt. 1

"Something to note all of the groups covered on this show operate in secret. The details included in this episode are based on extensive research but ultimately can never be one hundred percent verified except by society members themselves like Tober fourteenth ten ninety two. The court of the subject Sultan was traveling to the palace in Baghdad on the road from Isfahan the sultan's chief minister. Nissan Outlook lounged in a pillow glitter carried by his guards. The road was dangerous but any road in a time of war would be the cell Juke. Empire was in the midst of a heated conflict with a group of religious fanatics it was up to Nissan. I'll mulk to take the insurrection down as they approach. Baghdad Baghdad Caravan came to a halt of poor Sufi Muslim man was waiting for them. He wanted a word with Nissam. The guards placed the litter on the ground so they could speak but it was a trick the Sufi man with a hidden dagger and stabbed Nissam in the throat blood sprayed everywhere as neeson fell to the ground. He stared into the eyes of his killer. Who was smiling his dagger drenched in blood? The man was no Sufi. He was one of the enemy. Radicals Disciple Love Hassani. Sabha a member of the order of assassins. Hi I'm Vanessa. Richardson Greg pulsing. And this is secret. Societies Apar- cast original every Thursday. We examine history's most exclusive organizations from around the world and try to shine a light on the truth behind these mysterious groups from the to the order of nine angles will explore how much impact each secret society actually had on the world around them. This is our first of two episodes on the order of assassins. An Organization of extremist Shiite Moslems who feared nothing not even death they tormented Sunni Muslims and Christians during the Crusades in the Middle East instead of fighting an open combat. The assassins killed in the shadows. This week will explore the origins of the order and the man who founded it. How Saba he took advantage of political turmoil to a massive following of elite killers and create a new state will also examine some of the most infamous secrets and the legends of what really went on inside their headquarters. The walled fortress Allah Moot Castle. Next week we'll follow the order as new leadership radicalized them. They narrowly survived an unending war against their suny Muslim enemies. Even as Christian Crusaders invaded the area. But then the growing Mongol Empire helped put an end to one of the deadliest secret societies. The world has ever seen a few medieval organizations have had as storied history. As the order of assassins. You may have encountered. They're likeness in the popular two thousand video game series assassin's creed but you may not know that. Before the order the word assassination didn't exist. They're one of the most elusive organizations in history. Limited records led to the creation of legends and before long the line separating fact and fiction blurred tales of secret gardens hidden daggers and assassins a jumping off buildings it just to prove their fearlessness. Have shocked us for more than a thousand years. Even their name is shrouded in mystery. Assassin is the westernized version of the Arabic word Hasha Sheen it comes from Hashish. A type of cannabis popular in Persia and India. Their two leading theories on the origin of the name Hasha Sheen some believe that members of the order smoked the psychoactive resin before venturing out to slay their enemies others believe that. Haschisch was used by their leader for mind control but that leader's legacy traces back over fourteen hundred years to the era of Prophet Mohammad. Mohammad is considered the founder of Islam. He began his ministry around the year. Six Ten Wendy Archangel Gabriel appeared to him and told him that he would be a Laws Messenger and for approximately twenty years. Muhammed spread that message throughout Arabia through both peaceful and violent means but at six thirty two Mohammed died without naming a successor looking for direction. Muslims turned to Abu Backer who Hamas father-in-law he'd been chosen by the Prophet to lead daily prayers when Muhammad was ill too many. This was assigned that Abu Baqer should be the new leader and soon he was elected Calif Calif more or less means deputy to the Prophet. It's important understand that no one could ever replace Muhammed as the Prophet in Islam. He's considered the final prophet. Sent by Alaa after Adam. Noah Abraham Moses and Jeff but it's the Calif job to lead the faith in his stead and in Islam. This no real separation of church and state religion and politics are one therefore Calif wasn't just a religious leader. He was also the governing ruler of a body of people who were known as a caliphate but in six thirty two not everyone agreed with the choice of Abu Baqer as Calif a faction of Muslims believed that Muhammed's cousin and son-in-law Ali was the rightful successor. Their central argument was that Ali Shared. Muhammed's blood while Abu Baqer did not the disagreement caused a rift amongst the once unified group followers of Abu Backer became known as Sunnis. Those who chose Ali became known as Shiites after two decades of infighting and the beheading Muhammed's grandson the Shiites and the Sunnis formally split a line was drawn in the sand and Islam was never the same but the Shiites had fewer numbers and thus less power for two hundred years they lived under suny control and in that time more occurred within their group making it difficult to unify. One of those factions was the Smiley Shiites but everything changed in nine nine when his mind? Shiite leader named Boo Abdulah claimed he was the descendant of Fatima the daughter of the Prophet Muhammad Bus. He was the true leader of the Muslims. As we mentioned. The Shiites had a particular interest in bloodlines. The Fatimid Caliphate rose to power and built an army. They expanded through North Africa and Palestine and eventually made Cairo their capital for more than a century. No soon group dared take on the formidable Fontham at army until a group of Sunni Turks known as the Celtics banded together and posed a serious threat and it was during this period of political turbulence that Hassani Sobar created the order of assassins. Hassani Sabha was born into one of the major branches of she ism called twelve or she ism near present day. Tehran though an exact date isn't known it was sometime between ten forty and ten fifty five. C E at the time Persia was under Suny Souljah control and as a devout Shiite. Hassan was raised to hate them when he was about seventeen years old. Hassan was introduced to a form of Shiite Muslim teachings known as is Miley she ism or is Mile Ism through a low ranking Di di sensually scholarly representatives of the faith who educated and invited others to convert by ten seventy two Hassan had converted to is Myla's ISM and swore a loyalty oath to the Fatimid Caliphate and their Air Nasar Nizara. Hassan grew close becoming friends six years later. He travelled to Cairo where he completed his religious studies and became a die himself. No was Hasan's job to spread is my listen throughout the world. His mission was to create a singular nation under its message and Hassan was more than up to the near impossible task but he had hesitations about his leaders. His time in Cairo gave him insight on the growing weakness of the fought amid caliphate. They weren't doing enough to expand their power their opponents the Celtics had slowly taken control in Persia and Syria. He expected more resistance from the fought heads so Hassan decided to take action into his own hands around ten eighty one. Hassan left Cairo and headed east. To preach is my listen throughout the land and he had tremendous success. The Cell Conquest of Persia and Syria had left all Shiites. Not just as Majlis disenfranchised as Hassan traveled through the land many of the downtrodden clung to him as the Revolutionary Leader. They needed to end suny oppression. He collected a devoted following of men who were tired of sitting at the sidelines. It was time to bring the fight to the cell chicks. It was time for an insurrection. Hassan just needed a base of operations somewhere. He could conduct his war on the cell jokes. And by ten eighty eight he'd picked one out. Allah Moot Castle located six thousand feet above sea level in the Alborz mountains in northern Iran. Elements Castle was a nearly impenetrable fortress. There was only one very difficult. Way In through a narrow gorge. Along the Alamo River. No Army could gain entrance by any ordinary means. It was the perfect base but there was one big problem. It belonged to their enemies. The cell jokes trying to besiege it with a traditional attack would be suicidal may have had a loyal following but his numbers were nothing compared to the cell jokes so he took a different approach. Slow and steady for almost two years. A son ordered his followers to convert locals nearby villages once. He amassed enough of a following. He sent a few to infiltrate posing as Sunni believers wants inside they started to convert the Celtics finally in September ten ninety Hassani Saba was smuggled into Alamo Castle. There was no need to seize control because he was essentially already in control. He had the numbers. The Cell Ju commander after seeing that his men were no longer loyal. Apparently just left quietly some sources. Say That Hassan even paid the commander three thousand gold dinars for his troubles. Ironically many historians consider this peaceful takeover to be the official beginning of the order of assassins. There was no secret meeting. No blood oath. Sworn they just quietly usurped a castle in the Iranian mountains but the order quickly expanded their reach spreading the word this smile assume converting more recruits and acquiring more castles. After two years of missionary work assigns started to threaten to sell nukes. Salted may the shah. There was a growing insurrection in his empire. So the Sultan ordered his political adviser Nissan Albuque- TO ATTACK NISSAM was more than happy to do so. Interestingly according to legend Hassan might have once been friends they allegedly met while studying in Cairo but after a bitter falling out the two became enemies and both men wanted the other dead in ten ninety two Nissan and the cell jokes attacked vote and another assassin fortress called on the hopeless to exterminate. The order in one fell swoop before anything got out of hand unfortunately for the cell. Jukes the order of assassins repelled the attack despite being outnumbered owing largely to the strength of their fortresses but Hassan worried the assassins couldn't hold off another Seljuk joke assault. He didn't WanNa take the chance. He had to go on the offensive not long. After the first wave of attacks Allah Moot Neeson. Milk was on the road from Isfahan to Baghdad. He was approached by a member of the order of assassins named boot to hear. Ronnie Irani was disguised as a Sufi man and when the time was right he plunged a dagger into Nissan's body killing him on the spot. The death of Nissan. I'll milk is widely regarded as one of the first. If not the first official assassinations by the order and it changed everything a few weeks later. The leader of the Celtics Sultan may leak shoddy died under circumstances the pair of deaths through the Cell Jack Turkey Empire into civil war. It was a turning point and a lesson for the order precisely placed dagger could be just as effective as an all out war then. Two years later Hassan's friend and heir to the fought timid caliphate. Nasar was murdered in a plot orchestrated by an imperial advisor. Al Aft- Dow Nizara was the last thing tying Hassan to a branch of Islam. That he believed wasn't doing enough so Hassan began his own sect naming it after his deceased friend. Nasar IS SMILE ISM with this Hassan and the order of assassins severed ties with the Fatimid Caliphate. They became their own state free to spread their message as he pleased one. Assassination at a time he would paint the sand. Read coming up the secrets and mysteries of the order of assassins parkhouse listeners. I have some big news regarding the critically acclaimed series famous fates. Although season one has ended the franchise still lives on starting may thirteenth. The famous eight speed will feature season two titled Falls From Grace Available. Only on spotify joined Carter and is we return to examine some of the most accomplished and controversial people to ever live. You'll discover what drove these history makers to be so successful in their respective fields and lead to their ultimate disgrace available for free and only on spotify falls from grace will release to episodes a week over twelve weeks each focusing on the fame and shame of a notable figure from OJ Simpson and marie-antoinette to Howard Hughes and Elizabeth homes. You'll dive into a rich variety of impactful stories from every aspect of history. There shocking drama disturbing details all the indepth research that you've come to expect from US and most importantly these episodes are all free and only available on spotify. Famous fates falls from grace is park. Cast original starting may thirteenth. Two new episodes released every Wednesday listened free and only on spotify now back to the story in ten ninety five. The order of assassins officially broke ties with the failing fought amid caliphate. Now Revolutionary Leader Hassani Sabha was able to conduct his holy war against the Sunni. Sell Nukes and any other faction that stood in his way. This holy war was centuries in the making tensions dated as far back as the sunni-shiite split in the mid six hundreds the assassins were in a Smiley Shia group and their central mission called. Dowa was to spread is my Eliza and create an smiley kingdom as we mentioned many branches of Islam including soon followed Calif but in his smiley tradition. They followed an imam. Imams exist in every form of Islam. Typically considered prayer leaders. But in she is them. They're much more. Due to the concept of Tulum in a nutshell. Talim is the idea that imams are the direct representatives of Allah and Muhammad on earth. They're the true successors of the Prophet Muhammad chosen by Alaa and thus divine in the order of assassins. Hassani Sabar was their Imam while most of assange writings are lost to history. We know for certain that he heavily reinforced the Shia concept of timeline so Hussam became something of a mystical figure. The person who could bring salvation and lead his people to Paradise and the Imams mission or Dowa was to convert more souls along the way so when he rose to power it was time to expand his reach beyond Persia. Hassan new the task before him wasn't going to be easy. He lacked numbers or a standing army in Persia. The Shiite population still paled in comparison to the Sunnis joke or otherwise largely because Don's branch of Islam was seen as particularly radical but Hasan had already proven that numbers were and everything he doubled down on strategy especially the art of Sassine to be clear even though the word assassin comes from the order the act of targeted precision killing wasn't invented by Hassani. Sabha historian. Kind me hill archaeologists. Harold Meller believed that the first political assassination happened in the bronze age thousands of years before the order was ever even formed in fact in the Middle East. Three Islamic K. lifts were assassinated before Hassan ever took political power but for Hassani Sabha. Assassination was the ultimate tool against his foes. It denied his enemies. Something they wanted. Glory for the cell leaders. Dying in battle was honorable. Dying in your sleep at the hands of a single man wasn't and of course. Assassination was effective historian. James Wasserman notes since Islamic culture placed a high premium on individual. Excellence the leader who was able to rise up and survive. His acquisition of power was tested. Individual bus is death was often sufficient enough to alter substantially the balance of power political murder. Also had the added benefit of paranoia in a world. Rife with assassinations. Your enemy is always on edge. Death can strike at any moment a walk in the streets dinner with family preparing for bed. It was psychological warfare as much as physical warfare but Hassan never carried out. These assassinations himself. In fact legend has it that once he took control of the castle and September. Ten Ninety. He never left he never needed to. He could eliminate his enemies from the comfort of his chambers and he could implicitly trust his followers to do his bidding. He turned them into elite killing machines by instilling total loyalty. The men who joined the order of assassins were volunteers. They were never pressed into service. They were called Fi di which literally means devotee they join for a variety of reasons for some it was protection. The order offered safety from the Celtics and other threats but for others joining. The order was more spiritual. They were looking for a way into paradise in Islam. Paradise or Jena is the afterlife reward for leading a God fearing and pious life on earth and by the one thousand is the concept of paradise was a powerful motivator for the assassins. Hassani Sabha was the gatekeeper to Paradise and he was promising entrance sooner rather than later so long as they gave their lives to his cause. Martyrdom wasn't a new concept for Shia Muslims but rarely headed been weaponized when an assassin was given a mission they never intended to return. It was no mistake. That they were only given daggers for their murders. It required that they get within inches of their target given that most of their targets were heavily. Guarded escape was almost impossible and death but certain but for members of the order the FI. Di The act of killing and then being killed became a sought after religious experience assassin. Historian Bernard Lewis writes for the smileys. The assassins were the corded late. In the war against the enemies of the Imam by striking down oppressors and usurpers that gave the ultimate proof of their faith and loyalty and during immediate and eternal bliss. There's a famous story of a mother who wept with joy when she heard that her son had carried out a successful assassination. She assumed that he died in the process and had gone to paradise when her son returned home alive and healthy she wept in shame which goes to show the all encompassing power of faith and achieving that sort of conviction took training according to chart of Strasbourg who visited Syria in eleven seventy five assassin indoctrination started and involved heavy isolation you learned a variety of languages like Latin and Greek and other techniques to blend in but the most important aspect of your education was to learn obedience to your master only one unquestionable devotion was achieved. Were you ready? And when that time came you were called before the grand master Hassan himself and took part in a ceremony. You would never forget it begins with Hassani so boss standing before you and the grandmasters chamber. He's the founder of your order the Rightful Messenger to Alah for some time. Now he's promised you paradise and today marks the beginning of your passage there. He hands you a cup and instructs you to take sip. You don't ask what's inside. You prove your obedience you ignore the bitter taste as it passes your lips and enters your body then. Suddenly you fall asleep when you wake up. You're no longer in the grandmasters chamber. You're in a lush green garden. It's filled with trees and bushes. There's a river trickling nearby girds insects hover making music. All around you the garden of Paradise. And it's exactly as the Prophet Muhammad described soon beautiful maidens appear carrying a bounty of fruits milk and honey for hours they feed. You treat you like a king they tell you. This is your reward for being faithful to the grandmaster and a law. This is what awaits you if you die for Hassan. But your time in paradise can't last forever not yet one of the maidens hands you a cop she orders you to drink and you do the next time you wake up. You're back Alamo. In the grandmasters chamber again. He instructs you to describe what you just saw. And you do with Uzi. Awesome when you finish the grand master steps forward and asks you a question if he promises to give you paradise again. Will you obey his command? You fall to your knees and proclaim yes I will and you mean it like you never have. Before then the grandmaster bids you rise before him you are now and assessing. He plays a golden dagger in your hand and gives you a name. It's time to kill coming up the assassin's face retaliation and expand their order into Syria. Now back to the story. In ten ninety five the order of the assassins separated from the Fatimid Caliphate and created their own Islamic state based in Kassel Allitt in modern day Iran because the orders leader Hassani. Saba didn't have the numbers to conquer his enemies. In war he relied on his followers unwavering devotion he learned that one fearless assassin could be just as effective as an army of a thousand men and he was said to create that loyalty through a drug induced ceremony known as the Garden of Paradise. Though the garden a paradise ceremony is one of the most famous assassin legends. Historians questioned the truth behind it. Many of the records we have on the order come from Europeans who visited the Holy Land and they were likely heavily embellished and influenced by local rumors as assassin historian. Farhadi doffed Ari. Notes in all likelihood will never know the exact training process of the order. It was one of the most heavily guarded secrets. They had rumors that Hasan used deception and drugs like hashish. Within the walls of limit started circulating through Persia almost immediately following the creation of the order which may point to some inherent truth. But we can't discount the likelihood that those rumors were started by the cell jokes or other Sunnis as a form of anti is miley propaganda. Other scholars believed that the garden of Paradise. Legend is wrongfully attributed to Hassan. That it was more likely created by a leader of the Syrian order of assassins. Rashida Dean non years later for know. What's important is how these popular misconceptions might have been born. After Christian Crusaders arrived in and Syria. They encountered the order of the assassins. Lebron fascinated by the allegiance. The men had to their leaders that fascination sparked Lord that may or may not have been based on real events by the time the stories reached Europe. It was like a game of telephone. They were likely far from true. Interestingly one of the men responsible for some of these rumors was Marco Polo the famous Italian explorer. He may have even spun the tail that the Garden of Paradise Legend dates back to Hassani Sabar but Marco Polo was born. One hundred. Thirty years after Hassan's death the only time he ever interacted with the order of assassins was during their downfall so even the most popular theories about the order like their use of hashish. Have to be questioned while they may have smoked. The psychedelic resin recreationally. There's no evidence that Hasan administered it to his followers during training or that he used it as some sort of mind control for their missions. Historian James Waterson points out that the assassins needed to be intelligent adaptable and resourceful man and being under the influence would have likely jeopardized their missions. Historian Farhadi Duff. Tari that the assassins under Hasan were sober sacrificing. Their lives was purely a matter of conviction which is understandably a difficult concept to wrap your head around. It takes a lot of conditioning belief and resolve to achieve that state of mind. Such behavior was foreign to the Europeans. So it's no surprise. That people searched for alternative explanations for House on achieved. What he did and his achievements were impressive. Intend ninety-six the assassins took control of a second fortress geared coup castle located near Present Day Domgaan Iran according to historian James Wasserman. The castle was taken in a similar fashion as Allah moot bloodlessly and through espionage as the story goes a member of the order infiltrated the castle posing as a cell joke eventually. He convinced the sultan to name him commander as commander he fortified the castle. And the Celtics funded it. Then he declared he was a follower of Hassani Cipla. He welcomed the order inside and they took control but well geared coup castle fell easily other areas of Persia resisted the assassins. They met their first major obstacle when they tried to take root in the city of is behind local surrounding the stronghold. Weren't interested in what the assassins were preaching. When members of the order arrived and began using their usual tactics of infiltration and conversion the citizens banded together and slaughtered them but Hassan maintained his patients. He sent a high ranking officer. A die named Tash in disguise. The local schoolteacher. He believed task would be more discerning and discreet and he was right. Attached converted enough men to the assassin sect of Islam. Misery is Myla's them that the city would be taken without a single death. Assassin control of his Bihan was a major blow to the cell jokes. They were in the midst of a civil war a civil war that the assassins would use in their favor. If you recall one of the first assassinations at the hands of the order was the political advisor Nissan not long after the Celtics. Sultan maleek Shaw died. Tension only increased when may leak. Shah's sons Marquee Roque and Muhammed to par each vied for power though Barky Roque was officially named Sultan. His half brother Mohammad Lead. Open revolts allegedly during the civil war. Balki Arocca actually employed the assassins were for all intents and purposes his enemies but he needed to remove his half brothers lieutenants in fact at least half of the assassinations ordered by any saw were against Celtic Turks whose deaths benefited Sultan Barky at Roque. Eventually around eleven hundred or eleven. O One bark your Roque. Manage to stop Muhammed's insurrection by bribing him with land and once. He no longer had a need. For Assassinations Bark Iraq turned his attention to crushing the order. Sultan Barky Arocca may have been happy to use the assassins when they were convenient but he'd grown tired of their presence in Isfahan and case Don so an eleven o four. He ordered his forces to attack smileys throughout the region resulting in a brutal massacre in response. Hassan targeted Seljuk military commanders throughout the region. His followers slipped into Celtic fortresses and silently killed the men in charge leaving their soldiers leaderless but Hassan needed to stop their message from spreading as well the subject suny spiritual leaders were speaking out against his. Myla's him so he sent his feet die to kill suny preachers anywhere they could even in mosques. This was profane transgression of their faith. Something that even his enemies wouldn't expect and it worked although we had superior numbers Sultan Marquee Roque called for a truce with the order. The details of their agreement are unclear but according to historian James Wasserman the terms were beneficial to Assan and his men. This is why Sultan Barky aerobic was heavily. Criticised the deal. His people saw it as weakness so the sultan broke the truce sent his armies out and slaughtered Ismailis throughout his fan and Modern Day Iraq. It was a show of strength but it never stopped. In 11:05 Barky Iraq died of unknown causes. His half brother Mohammad was finally named Salton. He continued to fight the order of assassins. Who had killed so many of his men. Small-scale attacks and assassinations raged on for years until eleven. Ten then Seljuk forces laid siege to Allah Moot Castle for eight years under Muhammad. The cell jukes tightened their stranglehold on Hassan and assassin leaders surrounded the order nearly starved to death but they managed to hold on long enough for Muhammad to par to die cornered and week. Hassan saw Muhammed's death as an opportunity for the moment piece was his only chance for survival to rebuild and just like that the siege was inexplicably called off the order of assassins retreated according to historian. James Wasserman Hassan later sent a Basler's to the new Sultan. A man named Sanjar to negotiate a ceasefire. Sanjar promptly dismissed the messengers refusing to listen to any offer. This happened again and again. Hassan would dispatch his ambassadors to San Jars Court and each time. They were turned away so Hassan decided to get creative one morning. When Sanjar woke up he found an assassin's dagger planted in the ground next to his bed. Not long after. Hassan sent one last ambassador to the court. This time Sanjar allowed the assassin to speak. He delivered these words from Hassan. Did I not wish the sultan well that dagger which was struck in the hard ground would have been planted in his soft breast? The message was received loud and clear. The war was ended despite occasional skirmishes between the Celtics and Persians. For the most part there was peace in fact Sultan Sanjar even called upon the order of assassins when a coup was brewing. His Empire in the years after peace was declared. There aren't many records of assassinations by the order. The assassins were likely focused on reestablishing their political and religious control among local communities. Except there was one murder that had been a long time coming some unfinished business for the aging Hassan in eleven twenty one to assassins traveled from Aleppo to Cairo. They snuck into the Palace of the Fatimid. Calif seeking the K. Lifts Political Adviser Alaw. Dow the same man who helped orchestrate the murder of Hassan's friend Nasar. This murder was the recent. Hassan had separated and created his own state and the namesake for the assassins. Branch of Islam. Needs are is my lissome. No Hassan was finally going to get his revenge. Twenty five years. After his death of Hassan's feed is plunged their daggers into Alaw Dow spilling his blood across the palace floor. It was one of the last. Major assassinations under Hassan's rule in May eleven twenty four Hassani. Sabha was struck with a fatal illness as he weakened he named his most trusted General Bouzo Rga mead as his successor and who need promised to continue spreading misery is smile ISM across the world. It wasn't going to be easy to fill Hassan shoes for years. The leader the assassins had inspired a legendary devotion amongst his men and he juggled attacks and strategies on countless Frantz in the ongoing holy wars all allegedly from inside the element. The survival of the order of assassins wasn't guaranteed behead enemies everywhere the Seljuk Turks and the Fatimid Caliphate in the midst of this uncertainty. Husani Saba died on May twenty third eleven twenty four. He was almost eighty and he passed peacefully inside the castle. He hadn't left in thirty five years. During his reign as leader of the order of assassins he perfected a new style of warfare. A war in the shadows according to James Watterson. The order carried out. Roughly fifty assassinations on Hasan's command. But in the years that followed new leaders stepped into his shoes. Many of them were even more radical. They drove the order of assassins further into isolation and left a trail of blood in their way. Thanks again for tuning. In to secret. Societies will be back next week with part. Two of the order of assassins will explore. How the Persian assassins struggled in the wake of their leader's death and how the Syrian assassins continued the holy war against the Sudanese and later the Christians you can find all episodes of secret societies and all other park has originals for free on spotify leaders. Spotify already. Have all your favorite music. But now spotify making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast. Originals like societies for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker to stream secret societies on spotify. Just open the APP and type secret societies in the search bar and don't to follow us on facebook and Instagram at park cast and twitter at podcast network. We'll see next time secret. Societies was created by Max Cutler and is a park cast studios original it is executive produced by Max Cutler sound design by Michael Lang Sner with production assistance by Ron Shapiro Carly Madden and Freddie Beckley. This episode of secret societies was written by Joe Gara- with writing assistance by Maggie Admire and stars. Greg Poulsen and Vanessa Richardson.

James Wasserman Hassan Celtics Mohammad Hasan Persia Hassani Sabha Fatimid Caliphate Cairo Allah Moot Castle Paradise Army James Wasserman Mohammad Lead Nissan Calif spotify Sultan murder Syria Sultan Sanjar
Samar Jarrah, Wajahat Ali, Sahar Ullah, et al.  Revealing Ramadan

On Being with Krista Tippett

51:25 min | 5 months ago

Samar Jarrah, Wajahat Ali, Sahar Ullah, et al. Revealing Ramadan

"On being is brought to you by the John Templeton Foundation harnessing the power of the sciences to explore the deepest and most perplexing questions facing humankind. Learn how their Graentiz are helping to address the corona virus crisis at Templeton Dot. Org Ramadan commemorates the month when the Koran I vs were revealed to the Prophet Muhammed. It's marked by recitation of the Koran prayer and fasting from sunup to sundown. The Ramadan fast is a spiritual discipline of commitment and reflection but it's also meant to align Muslims with the larger experience of need and hunger in the world this year of course. Muslims are experiencing a Ramadan like no other. The month is usually a period of both intimacy and great parties waking before the sun rises for breakfast prayers with one's family ending or breaking the fast after nightfall in celebration with friends and strangers now Muslims or improvising. As in many places Ramadan has been forced inside and online. This show grew out of an invitation to Muslim listeners. Leading UP TO RAMADAN IN TWO THOUSAND NINE. We asked them to reflect with us on what it means to be. Part of what is often referred to in the abstract as the Muslim world. We received responses from all over the world. And we're especially struck by the vivid about Ramadan itself that nearly everyone had to tell across a remarkable spectrum of life and spiritual sensibility. I only teaches you that you can do so much more than you think you can. And at the end of the day when you take that first sipple water it is the sweetest thing in the world and also how it makes you compassionate. Because when you're hungry you understand the experience. Those people who are hungry every day of their lives. Ramadan is predicated upon eating or not eating or drinking or not drinking to state of mind and it's an attempt to achieve God consciousness that carries on throughout the day. I'm Krista Tippett and this is on being a we begin with summer. She was born in Kuwait and has lived throughout the Middle East. She came to the. Us In one thousand nine hundred nine. I just got back from Jordan. Actually last night very late last night and my family was telling me. Why can't you just stay longer and spend the week from Burma Don in Jordan or Egypt and I said you you will never understand this but the best drama done I ever spend. My life is always in America because I think sometimes I'm the only person fasting It's more strenuous. I feel like every day is as you head for me struggle to maintain my face the maintain my fast despite the amazing food around me in this men's if I go shopping or if I go to the mall there's food everywhere everybody's eating except myself and this brings me amazing strength and I wake up very early in the morning. can be lecturing can be driving to my Classes a hundred miles each way. I can be feeding the homeless I can. I can be doing amazing stuff that I would not be doing if I were living in a Muslim country because the whole country would be fasting and I would be one of many Last year I was giving to lectures in instead of soda to a college and the lecture starts one hour and a half before the time of breaking the fast so he's giving the lecture giving it and at seven forty five. I pose an I just took a date and a sip of water and I told my students breaking my testing and I continued another and a half and then I had an hour and a half to get back home and I was not tweak I was full of life and I fed my God. Now I understand what it means to be fasting DON IN AMERICA. I bet you if I was living in my mom's house I would be dead if I missed my me and Half an hour after the time of the breaking of the fast. This is priceless. And that's why I did everything. I E even pay extra money for my ticket to make sure I arrive before Ramadan starts because this is what I feel. I'm really fast thing with a with a meaning and purpose especially It's happens during Ramadan. We go and feed the homeless. So I there's so much food I'm giving those people and people are telling me why don't you tasted why don't you taste it and tell them? I can't on fasting and they say why don't you just have a sip of water and I can't. I'm fasting and you can't imagine how blessed I feel that I'm feeding homeless. People and I am fasting and I can touch the food. And that's the whole idea of Ramadan not to be able to eat to feed with the poor and the deprived and I just love it My name is Leigh. And I'm from the Berry. California Jihad is a first generation Pakistani American playwright. Who trained as a lawyer? Since we spoke he's become an op Ed contributor to the New York Times remember when I was a good at UC Berkeley. We used to always say breaking the fast. We're breaking fast breaking the fast breaking fast but I remember in my Arabic teacher is like no Listrik. Lii In what you're doing that you're opening your fast You opening your fast with the date. So from then I've I've always said opening my fast and you know essentially that act of worship continues throughout the month. It just doesn't end with the fast right and I've grown up with almost my whole life right so sometimes give you. The most of my friends were being atheists. Also agnostics which I thought was great and Christian. So sometimes you know once in a while they give you these snide comments and they're like you know. How does the Muslim faster remedy on if you had like? You know the sugar problems and how what does the Muslim do. And if he has to eat and I kept telling them that. Run on not just Predicated upon eating or not eating or drinking or not drinking to state of mind. And it's an attempt to achieve God consciousness that carries on throughout the day. So even if you can't eat the date you can be nice to your neighbor you can repair relations with your family members right and You know you can help prepare the meal for the the most fast and so your fast continues after you open it with the date. There's a there's a great story that I tell. I wish I had more opportunities to you know. Islam has a lot of beauty in and I can understand the viewpoint of many in America who see the violence arrogance espoused by reactionaries Which Mars Diva Slama? There is but and that's understandable as a Muslim American. I can understand why people would have that reaction and limited understanding but you know it's also religion which inspires the poetry of really. You know whose love for the divine has Created versus that survive. Eight hundred years and nourish the spirit of lovers around the globe and when it comes to Ramadan as some of the some of the most beautiful moments That exist within the Muslim community and within a slum becomes manifest during this month and I remember one time when I went to Mecca which is a very the one the holiest site for pilgrimage for Muslims and I was in o'meara in Omaha has essentially like a mini version of Hutch. It's the easiest way can explain it and I was in college and it was during Ramadan and I just come finish o'meara which was about took it took about two and a half hours and I haven't eaten anything and I'm fasting and it's hot and I'm waiting this to White Scholz and I remember praying that you know I wish the Sun would say and I'm hungry and I remember in this measure the harm. That's the name of the mosque with a what you call the black cube the in the sunset and the entire world just woke up and everyone went to the mosque. And I remember about fifteen or twenty children came up to me and each one taking my hand in my in my in you know tugging on my finger and smiles on their faces saying come come. Come come to the mosque. Come to the mosque and Arabic. And basically what they had done is that they had prepared a small bowl with a date and some fruit and some milk Thousands of thousands of these bulls on these ads for all the Muslim around the city. Who are coming to the mosque. And so these children with the WHO. I've never met before and this like you know. Just one after another one after another just to come come into the bowl that I prepared coming at the ball from libranoy plead my bowl please. Michael and I sat there eating this bull opening my fast Next to strange I've never met before and greeted them with peace in the mosque and the Holy Mosque and there was just a a sense of overwhelming beauty. And I and I really. It's a memory that I cherish that sometimes. You don't want him when you see the the violence extremism arrogance and ignorance anger that memory university. You're Ninova SHANECO lives in Dallas in an essay. She wrote to us. She shared. How Ramadan was away into Islam to her. So I fasted for Ramadan and I loved it. It was strange because I have never been a person who's Kip the meal or gave up the extra piece of cake. So how could I not eat or drink a whole day over and over again and had to be something bigger than my base desires? That was driving me. And that was the most peaceful had ever felt it was unreal and of course it was not something I was going to forget about but it led me further and further into Slama practices. Yeah Nina's family moved from Russia to Texas. When she was eight years old she was raised in Eastern Orthodox. Christianity spent several years as a nondenominational Christian and converted to Islam in her early twenties. I know a lot of converts and I know the Convert Syndrome especially with the slum and that is to be better than more pious than the born Muslims. Because you feel like you have to make up for the fact that you're starting late or you're all the rules and things like that and I don't have that feeling at all so I don't use Arabic words in my speech. I don't dress a certain way because in Slama it doesn't say you have to. I mean I haven't found any proof that you have to and that's the good thing about this religion particular tells you you choose your own path. You use your own brain and you act. According to the rules that have been given. But there's always that Emphasis on finding out the best way to do something to special resonance moments. I guess would be the first time I fasted for Ramadan. I actually did it for the whole thirty days. It was just a completely new experience for me. You you just get undescribable peaceful feeling. I mean it's almost you don't know why it's happening but not only are you practicing self restraint and it's almost like you're doing something for a higher power. I guess that's where the peaceful feeling comes in. And that was the first time I had ever felt that way before so that that's a special memory and also it's hard to learn the movements and the prayers in Arabic them the correct way and sequence and took a while of you know practicing in order to commit that to memory. So when I could do it I felt like Not just It was almost like a I was finally committed to something and when you is it was something that was a little difficult and anytime something is difficult. You appreciate it more when you succeed or you master it. I guess so in that sense. It was a an accomplishment and from now on I'll never forget those words. You know once you commit something to memory even if you don't say it for a long time it's always there and I feel like no matter what I can always pray and use. Those weren't to to have peace intercom being today revealing Ramadan exploring the delights and the meaning. Of Islam's holiest month. My name is Catherine Metal. Maria is Mexican American grew up Roman Catholic and married Arab Muslim men but only after their divorce she convert to a slum think the most difficult Ramadan was had converted to Islam yet but I was studying Islamic and so don came around and fasting and my mother was quite opposed to me coming to slum like why didn't you come to Assam while you're married to the person that I could understand can't understand you do it on your own and years past in order to support him. I would fast with him during Ramadan. Even though it wasn't a Muslim and the year we got married drama Don and lent fell around the same time and I had told them. Okay fast with you but on Fridays. We have to break our fast fish. 'cause I can't have meat on Friday now but things get better last year. We opened our home to single and convert Muslim females. Because I know what it's like to not have a tradition a family gathering in your home and specific particular meals for Don and last year was the first year that I felt that had a home large enough where I could welcome someone and I had the financial resources to be able to say. You're welcome in our home. I may not know you. But you're a convert or you're a single sister and I don't want you to be alone for at least one night. We would do it on Wednesdays and we're not having it in my home this year but we're having it and Cabanas because they're larger because we hope to have more women Abraham on the Russian grew up Iraqi American in northern California now a scholar of modern history with a focus on the Middle East. He's taught in the US Turkey and Spain betting up an Undergrad at UCLA. And I remember that during the day a fellow Iraqi Muslim who doesn't practice the faith. She knew. I was fasting yet. She was still eating an ice cream in my faith to kind of tie my Practice of my religious belief that the university and it it kind of that. I remember that moment because usually when you think about Muslims you think of this one monolithic block. Who's engaged in kind of these Islamic rituals without any kind of deviation yet? I still remember this eating her baskin Robbins ice beam in the classroom. At the same time there was a Jewish person in the class Niran you do from Iran and he was also had an ice cream very hot day and he knew I was fascinating and he walked out of the classroom. And it just goes to show me that you know these you have this kind of image of. Judaism in law locking this kind of intractable conflict. Yeah those kind of daily moments. Here's an issue for Iran considered if my religious beliefs and a fellow Iraqi Muslim that kind of Lee minded me of the that. It doesn't matter what religion you are you. You could be sensitive to other people's beliefs. I mean one of the interest I have are particularly living in Spain. Is this kind of interplay of kind of harmony and Jewish Muslim relations as well as to what the Spanish term the convenience the ability of Spaniards Jews Muslims and Christians alike to lift together. This is one of the areas. I find that fascinating to research and I often remember that Ramadan incident. I'm reading various books than sources on this subject Is High so hard comes from Bengali family? She's an artist and an academic in New York City. She spoke with us from South Florida where she grew up a lot of stories The first Roma bond that actually fast the entire month I happened to be in sixth grade and I was really excited. I'M GONNA I'm GonNa do this. I'm GonNa be like an adult and I'm GONNA fast the entire month and the Roma done Like in the states especially is always marked by Muslims debating. Whether the moon was cited and weather today is the day or tomorrow. You know the next day is actually the first day of Ramadan but anyways so the first day I've done happened to be the first on the day of the first field trip of the year and I was so excited about this field trip because we'd get to go to McDonalds for lunch and we didn't have to bring her bag lunches so like when I found out that Ramadan was starting on the day of the field trip I was so mad and then I thought to myself you know I should be good spiritual person and consider this as part of the struggle. You know disturbing Muslim And of course my friends. They didn't make it any easier when we went to McDonald's and everybody ordered their meals I just sat there staring at them and I remember one of my friends. She kept eating her fries like really slowly in front of me and telling me like. Don't you want some fries? Don't you wish you could eat cookies? And I kept saying. No in fasting fasting. I can't eat them and then it's like maybe Half an hour later or before we were about to leave. The manager came up. And she's like I'm looking for a young lady and a plaid shirt and she saw me and she said Well This is for you. There is a Two gentlemen who I WANNA make to give this to you. And they're like two big meals like with the Burger and fries drinks. I remember those two men like they were looking at us. 'cause all my friends were teasing me. And they were wearing scrubs so they look like you know. They were either med students or physicians And they must have thought one that I was poor and I didn't have the money to get food and I was too proud to ask anyone else for food or that was starving myself but anyways it was a really nice gesture you know but at the same time. I couldn't eat it. There's still four hours left for breaking the fast So I gave away the Burgers and I gave away the drinks and I and I broke my fast with the fries and my first Ramadan. That's how as a you know a memory i. I turned to Lhasa that speaking of Being Listening Women America. My name is. Mary hopes although Mary was raised. Presbyterian with the social justice movements of the nineteen sixties. Her parents became more secular and so did she but that changed when she met the man who had become her husband a Somali Muslim when he proposed I I actually vol. He didn't ask me to convert because as you know. Islam- enables women to men to marry women of the book in other words. Jews and Christians don't have to convert acceptable for Muslim to marry them And it was easy for me to convert because Islamism logical and I. He impressed me in a million ways. He he wasn't a feminist. He's not a feminist still. He would never call himself a seminars and yet I think because of his Muslim beliefs he had more fundamental respect for for women than than anybody I ever so in some ways I felt like he was more of a m as in practice than than anybody. I've met met at all themselves a feminist during Ramadan. At my children's school they were you know into diversity training and this that and the other in this was post they were in middle school and it was post nine eleven. Nine eleven happened when they were middle school and was a little girl so Somali girl who got up to speak and she was a good friend. My daughters and my daughter covers her head. This little girl does cover and then she explained about how Ramadan makes you. You know how it Makes you humble how it instills humility? And also how it makes you compassionate. Because when you're hungry you understand the experience of those people who are hungry every day of their lives and I think it was so meaningful to me because it also because it resonated so much with my work because I do work and international conflict zones and in Third World countries where people are in fact hungry and in development and whatnot. That really you know to me integrations very important and that my work reflect my beliefs and my religion is important to me and and then so when she told me that that you know that was one of those moments in college My name is at non although. I am Turkish. My name is Arabic after my great grandfather's name and right after the nine hundred eleven this name I'd none has been On the most wanted list of FBI and so it is certain association in People's mind and hearing at people who are getting a little concerned Nano heart lives in Cambridge Massachusetts. He's an active Muslim member of UNITARIAN universalist congregation. We finish this first half of our program with the poem Ramadan in Dunkin donuts which had gone wrote and read for US Ramadan in Dunkin donuts from his asking about the time and double checking his watch. I understood he was about to break his fast Saddam. Nick I said the only aerobic I knew for all practical purposes. I liked him Salaam. He replied he has setting his table to donuts chocolate glaze the Boston cream and lentil so. He hit a apparently brought from the grocery store across the street. Do you want to sit down and shaved? I thanked him. No aren't you fasting? I explained my high blood pressure my medication. He pointed to one of the donuts. Still His said its share. The collapsing twin towers the beheaded hostages and the jumpy look on people's faces hitting my name. We already too. I said after a short break Ramadan floor in the Garment District of New York Ramadan sermons in Texas devoted to domestic violence Ramadan in Manchester England Ramadan. And roomy. You can always listen again at every show we do on the on. Being podcast feed wherever podcasts are found support for on being with Krista Tippett comes from the Fetzer Institute helping build the spiritual foundation for loving world. Fetzer envisions a world that embraces love as a guiding principle and animating force for our lives a powerful of that helps us live in sacred relationship with ourselves others and the natural world learn more by visiting Fetzer Dot Org tippet and this is on being. Today we're exploring the delights and the gravity of Ramadan Islam's holiest month. Ramadan commemorates the revelation of the earliest verses of the Koran to the Prophet Mohammad. It shifts along the Western calendar across time according to cycles of the moon and depending on the lunar cycles of any given year. It's either twenty nine or thirty days long. Several years ago we invited a wonderful array of Muslims to tell us what it means to observe Ramadan in spiritual terms and in their everyday lives. We put their voices and stories back into the world. Now as Islam's holiest month is improvised like all else. Prayers and the daily celebration of breaking the fast have in many places been forced inside and online. My name is Suze. Faith on I am from Turkey and I've been living in the United States in New York City for the past twenty something years after an early marriage in the US for rouget met the love of her life. Who happened to be a woman? This is a source of estrangement between her and her family. Her Islamic sensibility is deeply influenced by the Sufi poetry of Rumi. Fasting is a very interesting experience the fact that first of all he teaches you that you can do so much more than you think you can It could be ninety degrees and on a regular day which is not drama owner regular. They when you don't have to fast you can't go without drinking water more than more than an hour. But during Roma's on for some reason you can. You can go to whole day and at the end of the day when you take that first sip of water it is the sweetest thing in the world. that accomplishment that wow. I can actually do this That was always a big deal for me even as a young child. Even though I I I didn't do the whole month but I a day here a day there. I was like wow. I could actually do this if I can do this. God knows what else I can do and fasting clears your clears mine mine. I should not for myself but I feel that it really. I couldn't concentrate more and I could meditate much deeper and The reason for this I as I read from a Author from Turkey. I met WHO Lucy he explains. It says when you're not fasting a lot of your blood and a lot of your bodily energy is around your interest in your stomach so your brain loses. I don't know a lot of energy but once you stop input to stomach Now your body can really heal other parts and And the brain can take as much energy as as the needs and wants so. Your thought is much clear and your understanding when you need and you meditate you understand much more. My name is Tammy is a mother of three. She's an author and journalist and has written several books for children. In my faith she wrote to us. Parents are highly regarded. We have to honor and respect them unreservedly and treat them with utter kindness. Her Ramadan story revolves around her father. Who passed away a few months after she spoke with us. I do remember Watching my parents and my older siblings fasting as a younger child and wanting to you. Don't be able to fast too. Because it's it's such a big part of our faith and so I think I was Maybe nine or ten years old and Kids do not have to fast until after puberty or went to venture puberty. So you know I woke up. We have to eat before the sun comes up in the morning so I woke up you know and I had some breakfast and I think around nine. Ten o'clock I told my father I was like I think I can do this. I think I can continue the rest of fast. And he was so concerned and he's like no no no you know you're too little you do not need to fast is not obligatory on you. Don't worry about it and I was like no dad I can do it. Just let me try. Let me get through the rest of the day. And he's like you know. Let's let's take baby steps. You woke up. That's a big thing. You had breakfast with us. That's a big thing you know. Maybe maybe next year you can fast today but I remember he was like here. Drink this water and and break your fast and and I was so devastated. I felt like I was so disappointed and But when I was able to fast you know It was it was a great big deal. And it's a very the child's first. Fast is is a big deal in in our faith. And but yeah. That's that's one of the first memories. I have of Ramadan. It's a beautiful month. of spirituality and unity and family and community coming together and A lot of time spent in the mosques and prayer reading the Koran and I love it. I'm really excited about the month. My name is Ali Ramadan and on from Derwin Maralyn. I was born in a Muslim Windy. A miracle more than sixty five years ago and I did not stress that factor in my life as a child. Ali Is Father of eleven children and a retired federal prosecutor. Well first off my my safe what I enjoy about it and what I have always treasured about. It is that I saw it as a personal face. In in other words there was nothing between me and my God and so it allowed me to interpret certain things it allowed me a greater freedom in my understanding of my God and so as I try to practice my faith in praying five times a day it constantly in a sense keeps me and reminder in contact with my my my my faith and my God and therefore I try to remain humble. I think it helps me to remain humble. And when you're inane humble in a world you approach people in a kind of a equality it manifest itself in everything I do because I Am A diabetic. I don't faster in the month of Ramadan. I know the month of Ramadan is a time of discipline. But I don't see fasting and I don't see it as something that God wanted us to put our lives in danger. There are other ways that I try to Celebrate the month. I tried to be a little more generous than I normally am. And and so I tried to compensate in other ways. feeling My father WHO's Palestinian lives in San Francisco and my mother's actually Israeli American who converted to a song. My stepfather is Pakistani. So haven't really make family and we have you know really makes heritage. Alana shared many stories with us but for her. It's her family's religious. Diversity that illustrates a quintessential aspect of being Muslim in the United States. My grandfather is a staunch Israeli Veteran was pull pull war veteran he was Was kind of I guess. Uncomfortable with the idea of my mother being Muslim you know for a long time and he still is but that never stopped him from kind of respecting. When I was fasting for instance one of my brothers was like teasing me. And you know eating food in front of me while fasting and he kind of gives him like you know. Clapton stopping you know schmuck basically and I you know I was Kinda surprised by that. Is kind of you know interesting juxtaposition? You know when you compare it to the culture in which I was raised in various really but also very Muslim at the same time and My my father's family's very a Palestinian I would say we come from like a family so like a long tradition of you tribes and rulers over in Palestine so it was interesting to have that ejects physician vomiting. Easy comes at different parts of the season depending on what year? You're talking about. 'cause it's based on the Moon Calendar. I remember one time it came upon you know I'd say Christmas time and there are so many lights outside and so I remember my mom was visiting a friend who's actually convert from Christianity and You know we all piled in the car my grandfather and my mother Even my step grandmother at the time who converted issues. She's actually African. American was originally Southern Baptist but converted to Judaism in order to me and my grandfather and I remember We went out to go see lights during this one Ramadan night. Only we started seeing like you know these Christmas songs and by the end of it. We're also seeing like these shoes song and it was just doing on. You know a majority of people in the cover Muslim so we had so. We're just like a whole eventually. Yeah a puzzle pieces and Kind of odd ones. I suppose my name is Nadia shake. I live near Princeton New Jersey. My father was born and raised in. Kenya moved to England. Came to America sounded just like me Or any other JOE and My mom was From Pakistan came over When she was fifteen but still sounds like she just moved over. Not An attorney who specializes in labor and employment issues. Her Ramadan memory takes place in the garment district of New York City. In a household goods store owned by her father. After he came back from England he opened up A small retail store and it was a largely Jewish populated district into largely Jewish populated. Kind of business as well and my father's business partner was a man named is a Cohen and He broke the fast with almost. Every time I visited the store. With my dad we would just sit around The security guards were African descent. The cashiers were from you know South East Asia. The women on the floor that helps customers with certain questions were Hispanic You know exactly kind the microcosm what New York is in the small retail store. You know we have about forty employees and at the time to break fast you would see the people behind the register. Just kind of eating and breaking the fast and US going around with trays and me and my sisters going around with trays. Giving dates to everyone in the store sometimes customers would be like. Oh Can I. We do sell these in the store. No we're breaking the fast. Would you like one? And they would eat it and it would be interesting and they would ask where it was sold and it was not about the eating. It was about sharing It was nice. It's just the whole experiencing. I'm Krista Tippett and this is on being today revealing Ramadan exploring the delights and the meaning. Of Islam's holiest month when I first started the transition from party girl to. I'm going to where his job and in devote myself to God It was definitely read transition. There's a lot that you have to learn if you want to really take another religion into your heart. Nicole Queen was born in Houston and raised Southern Baptist out of college. She worked as a photographer covering celebrities and nightlife as she grew disillusioned without lifestyle. She became intrigued with the ideas. And preaching of Yusuf Estes. A fellow Protestant Christian Texan who converted to Islam nearly three decades ago now in her thirties. Nicole is a practicing Muslim. As is her husband and his family. I started too fast the month of Ramadan two years before I actually converted to Islam because I I used to think it was just a pretty cool thing like people said you know what this month. I'm not going to eat or drink. Anything until the sun goes down. And that kind of makes you all equal like everybody's hungry everybody's thirsty and and it also humbles you like it teaches you what it's like for the people who don't have access to all the food and water that we have and I remember my first year too fast roaming on as a Muslim I thought. Oh you know I've done this before but when you fast as a Muslim and I remember it was just completely different feeling. You feel like you're glowing you know and it's a really tough thing to do because when you fast as a Muslim you're not just fasting You have lots of extra praying and everything your intentions. The whole time are about worship about what you're offering to God and and you're sacrificing that you're making and you get together with other families when you first become a Muslim you just feel kind of alone like as a comfort you feel kind of alone because you're a convert to them and to your family year pretty rebellious here being really different you know and so I remember that first Ramadan. I really felt like I had. I had a place with people you know. I had a home with them and had a place with With my in laws and so. That's I think that that first Ramadan with when I actually started to feel like I belong to one group or the other. You Know I. It really was kind of a special moment for me in that My name is abby. Hi Sherry and I was born in Bombay India now known as Mumbai and We've been here it'd be migrated to this country and nine hundred ninety two for most of her life in the US. Sabina lived in New Jersey where she worked in the corporate world she's now retired and living in Texas and she tells her story. She uses the Arabic for mosque. Massaged this organization that I'm a member of it's called the Texas Muslim women's foundation and Last Madonna they had a domestic violence awareness day in all the massages in the metroplex on the same day which was the second Friday of from Don and That's really comes to my mind because It was every You know on Fridays. They have some which is called the hunter every Friday and that particular Friday which was the second day of Ramadan Madan. This organization made it Requested all the massages in the metroplex to give but pertaining to domestic violence. And I think that was. It was really beautiful because It dried the Vannice. There's a lot of domestic abuse going on you know in families here and abroad the Venice to the general public and I thought it was great because the same Thought the same message was relayed throughout the Metroplex area on one single Friday and it was done in the holy month so that you know I think people are more of a during this month because of the God. The obligate charity that they have to do is mostly encouraged in the month of Ramadan and people just open their hearts and they ended up so many causes that come up in the massaged so many people come in excellence and people just give and give you know no matter what their financial status and that I think is one of the beautiful things. My Name's Steven London crime from Manchester. She's in the north of England so this At the start of Ramadan which you need to appreciate The Islamic Day starts at sundown as the Jewish faith. So at the start of Ramadan. Michaud it was a stay in the evening. And so we'll wishing each of the Hoppy Madonna the family and our neighbors and sending emails and tax and telephone. Kohl's obviously the children do that with grandparents friends and exciting time as you can imagine. Dip of everybody in the family. Stephen Converted to Islam in nineteen ninety. The whole of the Koran divided into thirty parts is red and Muslim congregations and families across the month of Ramadan. We close this hour with Stevens reading of a passage from the Koran that expresses the essence of faith and of Ramadan for him. You have to forgive because my Because we I in my throat dry so they give. It sounds of the recipe. I'm going to I'm going to be signing Chop to the CON- which comes towards the end of the comments one of the show chapters and it's cold in our bags. Sorta the chapters name his time so he goes this middle man. The heating lost in In Fun v host in Lavina No I mean they had not want to awesome hop awhile. So this somber. So that's my little F- reciting the crump and in English I'll I'll translate. We stopped every chance to this law. Which means in the name of the most miserable the most kind with regards to time. Surely humankind is that loss. Except those who believe and do good teeth and a steadfast truce on steadfast with patients who this show came about while we were listening for stories about living Islam and nearly every person had a defining sparkling Ramadan memory to share. We're currently exploring questions and opportunities to create more listener generated on being episodes if you have ideas about questions or themes for future shows like this send us a message on social media or email us at mail at on being dot org beyond being project is located on. Dakota land are lovely theme? Music is provided and composed by Zoe Keating and the last voice that you hear singing at the end of our show is Cameron Kinghorn on being an independent production of the on being project it's distributed to public radio stations by PR X. Created this show at American public media. A funding partners include the John and foundation. Harnessing the power of the sciences to explore the deepest and most perplexing questions facing humankind learn about cutting edge research on the science of generosity gratitude and purpose at templeton dot org slash discoveries the Fetzer Institute helping to build the spiritual foundation for a loving world. Find them at FETZER DOT Org. Kelly Appiah Foundation dedicated to reconnecting ecology culture and spirituality supporting organizations and initiatives that uphold sacred relationship with life on earth. Learn more at Kelly. Appiah Dot Org humanity united advancing human dignity at home and around the world. Find out more at humanity United Dot org part of the media our group the Osprey Foundation a catalyst for empowered healthy and fulfilled lives and the endowment an Indianapolis based Private Family Foundation dedicated to its founders interest in religion community development and education is produced by on studios in Minneapolis Minnesota.

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Bread: The Rise and Fall

Ideas

55:09 min | 5 months ago

Bread: The Rise and Fall

"I'm Keith Macarthur. Unlocking Bryson's brain is a podcast about my son. I am the rare disease that keeps him from walking or talking Bryson's perfect. His life is really hard and our families. Search for a cure. Oh My Gosh. Maybe science is ready for this. It's part memoir part medical mystery. We can do just about anything modifying. Dna Heart in my throat cure. His controversial unlocking braces brain. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. I read welcome to ideas. What is life flow British rule? In time if you just mix flour water and time flower water and time the basic ingredients of bread with that kind of simplicity. It's easy to overlook the role it played in building as we know it. We can't really talk about civilization and grain separately. They are the same thing. This virtually nothing which is not touched in some way or other by the fact that this dependence upon bread our relationship with Brad has roots and its importance has expanded into every aspect of our lives foundation of our daily meal. People talk about it being somehow very common symbol of what it is even be alive and to eat but if Brad helped make us who we are it can also be our undoing. It is something. That's that's quite infernal. In terms of its capacity to provoke disorder but increase off at great prices who control of control the world roots of obesity and also heart disease and diabetes and other diseases of civilization. This was the worst mistake in human kind of Lucien bread as the catalyst for salvation or damnation. Cbc Producer. Veronica Simmons Brings US her documentary bread. The rise and fall. I the rise. Is The table. Old Friends gathered around the table to eat it Saturday night but really it could be any night in any place at any table. Sharing bread is what companions do the work companion actually comes from the Latin com panics with bread so a companion is someone you break bread break when we break bread all the people were with our hands get full of crumbs or oily or whatever. So we're all sort of doing the same thing symbolically. If you're doing the same thing with your hands and sharing you you know you care about thinking with the people around you about what else you might have in common on. I'm Janet Fleming and Professor America from Santa Clara University and I've written a book the taste for civilisation about the civilizing functions of food. Janet has spent twenty years researching the building blocks of civilization and she's found that bread plays a central role. It seems to bedrock features trust in sharing and with respect to bread and food. All food sort of assumes a trust that the people that prepare. The food won't poisonous or harmless that it'll be healthy and it won't kill us and then with respect to sharing obviously all food is shared but British shared in a particular way because it's usually in a loaf and it's broken into fair portions so with bread. They're sort of a social aspect to it. It's meant to be shared and bread is really essential to both of those sort of building blocks of being civil This civility is fused into everyday routines. Eating is something. We're not GONNA do one two or three times a day depending on our cultures and most of us don't WanNa get indigestion. There's lots of other times in our lives. When it's expected that we will be antagonistic towards others but something about sitting together just good aromas delicious flavors just the sensual pleasure of it we probably censor ourselves and we go well. I really feel like saying this but you know I think I'll either not say it right now or say it in a way that the welfare of the group is enhanced. So we learn early on how not to just throw a fit but to temper what we say because we want enjoy the meal. I don't blame you because it's good. And this communal meal. Sharing is also an education in civil political behavior. Everything we know about democracies assumes an informed citizenry that is willing to speak up for itself so at a meal people can find their political voice and if the meal is democratic where there's an interest in everyone speaking and talking about their day and giving sort of equal time to weigh in and not letting anyone hog the conversation and Lord over. There's been a lot of evidence that it's extremely important for the development of children to have people take them seriously and listen to what their day was help them deal with ethical dilemmas. They learned that it Relatively calm peaceful place then. Children learned that when conflict arises you learn how to do with his civilly not by reaching across the table and straddling the person across the table rewind. Great Brett teaches us. Civility bread teaches us. Democracy bread teaches us. Who We are. I was really struck in my research. With the extent to which bread formed your ethnic or national or racial identity Italians and French and the role of bread giving it fresh every day. So the ritual of fresh bread picking up your fresh baguette every day and having a relationship with the baker in the African American Community Corn Bread Tortillas your non or your pizza or your back ed. Bread often looms really large in older generations communicating to the next generation. What IT MEANS TO BE X. And then I think people when they go to other people's houses and say oh you this kind of bread you know it helps understand the history and the culture of different people forming not only family identity but ethnic racial even in some cases national. So it's a huge part of who we are when we talk about bread really we are talking about life. Every aspect of life art religion Politics Health Wealth Poverty. Bread is life and bread is alive. The yeast that makes bread rise is a living organism living. It's living substance the leader and we just followed something to which you're giving life then life of bread touches our lives and our souls As Father Damien McPherson prepares for mass. A gold framed. Painting of the Last Supper hangs above his head. Jesus Christ is in the centre holding a loaf of bread. Bread happens to be the central focus of the Roman Catholic Church. Insofar as it serves as the sacrament of the Eucharist during the celebration of the mass the priest consecrates the bread and the wine which become Sacramento Valley the body and blood of Jesus Christ. The fact that they don't look any different feeling different taste any different doesn't mean that it is not different. The difference truly is in the Amen and that expression of a man simply means. I believe I believe this is truly the body of Christ. And so we're the greatest reverence. The participant takes the bread and consumes it. The body of the body the body of the body the body we refer to the first. Eucharist as the last supper where Jesus actually took bread from the table at which he was sitting and said take this all of you and eat of it for this is my body which will be given up for you do this in remembrance of me we use bread because Jesus I used bread. Ah and US as what is your life like without bread if you think of that. What is the longest time you ever went without eating bread? Well I don't think our experiences that much different than Jesus bread was very common table item that you came to to be nurtured by an that really didn't change that much down through time. Bread was is and certainly will be a future stable item in our lives in my life. If there was no bread there was nobody home because my mother baked it three times a week and come home from school as kids in the house would be filled with his aroma of big bread. I mean it was just enough to tease you into one to eating the whole thing just a little piece for now the reality of what. Your Mother's bread does to you the way in which. It delights the pallet the way in which it nourishes the body. Well it's not that difficult to make the next step when you talk about the spiritual bread. It has all the same qualities you know. It's substantively fulfilling and satisfying to the soul. The EUCHRE's takes on deeper meaning when you are In some ways troubled you know I remember very clearly the death of my mother and she had of course a Catholic funeral mass. The Eucharist was very comforting. It was consoling. It was reassuring. One I distribute the Eucharist. I'm very much conscious of the hands. That are put forward the body of the shape of them. Sometimes they're they're hard and callous. You know other times. They're old and wrinkled body sometimes. They're very nice looking. You might say which reminds me. The people of God are really collection. Who come from different experiences and what might be trying to get healed. By the devoted practice of receiving the Eucharist it always is yielding meaning to the degree. I might add that. Were open to receiving it with you. It's just before dawn in downtown Toronto. Outside the blackbird bakery. The streets are empty inside the bakery. The air is thick. The smell of red loading the red loader with the bag that we've pre rolled out earlier today before they go into the oven. This bakery runs twenty four seven. Someone is always here keeping a hand and an eye on the bread. Hard physical work. This is really just the last step in what's been like many hours and many hands. There is a tradition in about the Prophet Mohammad. We're we believe that. Three hundred and sixty hands partake in providing marcella food. These hands include the earth and the win and the angels directed forces but there's also includes labor and the migrant workers and unfortunately there others that are laboring in the fields and underpaid and and all the other laws that come sometimes with bread as what it includes the people who signed the checks in the corporate world as well so I think everyone is included in that including where we raised our hands. As people of prayer invoking his best thing Alhambra Delilah at Amana was gonNA Regina Muslimeen. I'm Happy Valley and I'm a new MOM and author and chaplain serving the Muslim community. Ten God was Fed us and giving us the drink and has made us people who subservient and surrender to his well the Koran and the teaching the Prophet Mohammed and be peace celebrates. Brad God has sent us food from the heavens and in all different forms shape and bread symbolic of that. So you bet wirelessly hat in Arabic meaning of the good things and do good works so if there was any secret for social justice. Let's consume much more Lawful and correctly acquired bread in our lives livelihood. Assistance would lead to the impetus to know cells to be better too good to be socially Sunday and just the art of Bacon brand is not necessarily a measuring cup but is in the field. Then you add water. You're adding love when you add east. You're adding patients when you add flour and saw your ad adding compassion and forgiveness. So sometimes it's a long process and I can tell you do with. You're trying to describe a feeling you're trying to get people to understand a feeling of bread should feel what's your tight. What's how's it shaped tight versus might loose? But that's just only come on time and then everyone has different opinions about what the best feeling in another bakery in another country. Rabbi Jonathan Rubinstein. Putting on his baseball cap government message twice Back and his beard net so remixing career. He starts his Friday morning kneading dough for the Sabbath. Small Dinner Rolls Sandwich bugs shallow slice of Heaven Bakery. He's actually baking in his synagogue. Well known quote in Ankara in Tora Tora in chemistry without bread or flour there is no Torah and without Torah. There is no bread. Both spiritual sustenance represented by Torah and physical sustenance represented by flour and bread are necessary for a complete life deuteronomy lesson shelby your basket and you're needing bowl owing exodus. It says when you serve the eternal your God God will bless your bread and your water leviticus you shall eat your fill of bread dwell securely in my favorite and. Isaiah he says why. Do you spend money for what is not bread? Bread is a symbol of what is essential what is meaningful what is important tables. Here salts the all important piece? I still get the same little charger. Thrill every time you know. I'm going to go back in the kitchen. And a few minutes. And our dough is going to be risen and It still seems miraculously and mysterious to me even though I know why it's happening. Yeast is a living organism whether it is commercially yeasts or yeasts that are floating. Around in the air it's very very elemental ingredient that resonates with me with the basic elemental processes. That started our universe when you put this very simple organism together with these other very elemental organisms the grain and the water. Which is I need. And they combine. It's like you're participating in this process of creation divine process rook when we say the blessing over a meal. We say a blessed. Are you eternal God who brings forth bread from the Earth Now? There are other blessings. We say over other foods that say who creates the fruit of the vine for wine grape juice who creates the fruit of the earth for vegetables and fruits that grow out of the ground. But this one's different says who brings forth left him from the Earth but bread doesn't grow out of the earth it doesn't grow on a tree or on a plant. Bread is a product of both the miraculous processes of nature and human labor and skill for all three of the Abraham IC religions bread is a symbol of God's generosity God is Dinara sure and he's a provider or at least sustain her. They all give thanks for this gift on. The rabbi tells US bread requires the gifts of God the wheat in the water but it also needs the human mind to know how to combine them. It's a partnership and this partnership has very specific origin story. It all started when Adam and Eve were banished from the garden of Eden. It's punishment that's one of the consequences and the results of the expulsion from Eden and this decree that we would henceforth to produce our food by the sweat of Bro because they send by eating the fruits of the forbidden tree so now rather than having everything just kind of appear or accuracy for them in the garden of Eden. They didn't have to join work. Now they're gonNA have to do the work of tending the Earth so the earth will give us what we need. Human beings are partners with God in the ongoing work of creation. This banishment from in became our collective fall. So if a capital F but Harvard University archaeologist Ofer Bar Yosef uses more secular term the newly revolution the Neolithic Revolution that period of time. Ten thousand years ago when we went from hunter gathering to farming harvesting grains and eventually eating bread over now lives in Israel in the same region. Where all three eight faiths emerged the same area where humans? I started making bread in archaeology. What we know today bill in here in this place the Levant which is southeastern Turkey northern Syria and Israel Joe then at one point hunters gatherers were cultivating systematically year after year. The same plants and earliest evidence we have is in a site called. Hollow in Lake Kinetic Galilee. Were twenty three thousand years ago. Some people started planting the same wild species again in the game. That vantage is that. You don't need to wait for them to completely ripe. You can harvest the green plants and then process them with motors and pencils and so to make some kind of a flower from this material. The good thing about the cereals is that you could make flour and then you can make the breath so the bread is an invention cough. Those original farmers that option of cultivation of cereals had a major advantage. You can feed your babies and this man's job you'll give them some carbohydrates from a very early age and once you use it as a winning. The wife can be pregnant again instead of fair breastfeeding so the hunters gatherers immediately found the great advantage in collecting and harvesting wild plants. So we kept cultivating these serials mixing them with water. Making them first into porridge over fire and then eventually we would dry this porridge atwater again and put it on a flat. Rock overtop of a fire. Our first ovens index of dillas word near the Moscow. Say the Neil stole den excavate. Oh found pita bread dated back to nine thousand years old. And what did these early Pitas look like? Does it look like the pita today? Exactly this was the beginning. Bread Fed these early civilizations lows were quite literally baked into the earliest cities. I can tell you something we know. On the Egyptians the workers who built the Pyramids five thousand five hundred years ago right next to the pyramids the excavated found to not only the the housing for the workers but also the bakery and the bread. They're really look like the bread today. Which actually looks in a way? Like hey rick because the Arab breaks made the clay in places like Jericho where we fell to them in a jargon calling them plan convicts were call them this. They actually look like breath. They'll flat on one side and rounded on the other side so this shape of making something bread like in breaks goes back in time to eleven thousand five hundred years ago. Still The bread shaped the bricks. Bread was literally the foundation. Bread Fed the babies and grew the population and as people moved into other regions. They took the bread with them. Can carry a lot of it either in begs so it's easy to low than don't key and bring it for one place to another the source areas right here in the Levant and the making of the red went together with the farmers into Europe Minister. Ania and into Mesopotamia and beyond and this is more change. The world of today and called this increase in population is the one that allows the world today to fit many more people than before. And do you think that? We're better off. Because we transitioned to becoming agricultural societies. I can only site one. Scientists really admire this juggle diamond. Who said this was the worst mistake in human kind of Aleutian? You're listening to bread the rise and FALL ON IDEAS. You can hear ideas on. Cbc Radio One in Canada across North America on Sirius. Xm In Australia on our in and around the world at CBC DOT CA slash ideas. I'm now I at. The theaters have closed but the show local on play me. Podcast is thrilled to present a new series. The show must go on featuring provocative productions from some of North America's most acclaimed creators for the stage. Sit Back and experience. Everything from chilling thrillers to Gut wrenching dramas to a irreverent comedies. Each month experience the exhilaration of theater from the comfort of your own home. Play me available wherever you get. Your podcasts Humans developed agriculture during the Neolithic Revolution. More than ten thousand years ago leading to a massive shift away from hunting and gathering we eventually started baking bread and our populations and cities began to grow eighteenth century. Enlightenment thinker. Jean Jacques Cousteau was probably the first to draw the link between the rise of agriculture and the growth of inequality something that corrodes human nature in her documentary bread the rise and fall CBC producer. Veronica Simmons is asking whether Brett is our salvation or damnation. Last fall still bunny. Then I'm going to add some more time call so that In half an outage it'd be the we make ten RENA Szekler part. Some people say it is but kinks invaded India devoted to India. When you put your hand on top of that you can feel the heat like it's too hard. It's not very good action. Not Too hard to call also not good that more temperature fascinating we stick it on the wall the non red and it cooks in maybe thirty seconds it should be for most edges should be a conspiracy but insiders should be soft the beauty of the thunder the words of over the archaeologist. Keep ringing in my ears mistake. Was Agriculture a terrible mistake? Is it all breads fault? I Zero Brett Richard Manning lives in the mountains of Montana had any bread in five years. He's a writer covering environmental issues and author of the book against the grain. How agriculture has hijacked civilization domestication of green really is civilization before that people were hunter gathers they lived in small bands tribes so forth and the idea of cities and living together in clusters was really not possible until agriculture became possible. So we can't really talk about civilization and grain separately. They are the same thing. So what would you say we've gained from grain? Well I'm probably the wrong person to ask about that because I tend to be on the negative side of that and focus a lot on what we lost my by grain but what we gain was all the things so we think of been civilization so leisure time. Some people didn't have to work in fields every day and so they could sit around and do things like event religion or writing and literature and music. Computers that we have today in the way we live today became possible by the fact that some people didn't have to work but is he sees it all. These upsides aren't worth the downsides. There's no such thing really as unvarnished progress we have to take into account the negatives that occurred and deal with those at the same time so really the problems that we're dealing with today especially things like global warming depletion of the oceans and all those other issues really been coming for ten thousand years almost all of agricultural in fact all of agriculture depends on suppressing biodiversity and the consequences that ripple through almost every single thing we do so agriculture is at this point almost always has been really humanity's largest footprint on the planet if we think of the the greatest problem for the planet it's overpopulation seven and a half billion people on the planet now where she's been wholly allowed my agriculture ooh spread our armies or ideas or our culture in some way the first very first thing which. Brad were plants and in the process they brought in also the weeds and went with wheat. And so now one writer. British writer thought about the fact that the British Empire Stretcher across her whole world and said well. It's true that the sun never sets on the British Empire but the sun also never says on the dandelions which was spread quickly and it was around the world. Beautiful image almost beautifully disturbing. Maybe it's impossible to separate out agriculture from the restaurant impacts on the planet it really is so defining of humanity that that it is humanity in some way. And it's made us sick with what Richard Calls. The diseases of civilization we evolved species to be hunter gathers and eat very differently than we now and the consequences of our diet now are beginning to show up and really profound ways all of agricultural based in carbohydrates because it's grain. Most of what we eat today is grain. Let something like seventy five percent of human nutrition derives from three crops all of them grain that floods our bodies with carbohydrates and those carbohydrates convert to sugar in our bodies and so we have insulin resistance and that promotes something called Metabolic Syndrome. So that's probably our leading health problem in the world today and it's at the roots of obesity but also to roots of heart disease and diabetes in the other diseases of civilization. There's evidence that our dependence on green transformed our bodies and not necessarily for the better. We have we on earth skeletons from five thousand years ago in early agricultural sites. They have cavities or they have no teeth. Where hunter gathers had fine-tooth did decay. So result of the shakers are miles. But they're also things like deformities. People had to work at very tedious jobs. A longtime in their skeletal deformities that showed up and in some of the early agricultural people people tended to be much shorter than we are today. As a matter of fact as result of it from the very beginning of agriculture there is a disparity in diet so elite people rich people had access to variety and very good foods and they tended to get a bit healthier. The rest of US got sicker so not just the planet not just. Our bodies grain has also changed our relationships and shifted the balance of power. It happened almost immediately and so we look at ancient cities five or ten thousand years ago at the very beginnings of agriculture. Some people had wealth and what was almost invariably associated with the larger houses were granaries that people could store grain so they could store wealth or and therefore have power over other people. They had their had their food supply and so they could make them work in the and slavery could began in all those things we associate with disparity from everything we understand there are no gala -tarian agricultural societies. It was always driven by some sort of disparity of wealth. There were always poor people so one of the things that agriculture made possible was poverty. And we're still dealing with that today. In that sense Grad is money the ancient Egyptian workers who built the Pyramids repaid inbred. The I weighed. Red is even used to mean money as in making as they say. Money is the root of all also punished. My name is Steven Kaplan. I'm a professor European history at Cornell. University emeritus over the course of some forty years. I've written many books about bread. When you're right about bread you're right about politics right about religion you write about society you write about language right about culture you write about metaphors about images about conflict about class and this virtually nothing which is not touched in some way or other by the fact of this dependence upon bread. I don't think I've ever met anyone who loves bread quite like Stephen Does. I'm very touched by listening to the song of the bread when you take it out and it's just come out of the oven and it's going through the process of cooling off. It makes kind of sound. That's very hard. Imitates kind of crackling sound shuttle an immensely Moving to me. It's the song which I hear when I tried to be Zen and meditate about the essence of things. It's something that move me and touches me very much. He loves bread so much. That studying it wasn't enough he had to learn to bake it. I became imbued with all of the instincts of the bakery. I became impregnated with ethos. I sang the song by out dirty songs. Baker boys dressed in a flour sack. I sweated into the kneading trough when you plunge your hands into the kneading trough even if you're working with the machine and you feel the flower around your fingertips you commune with the flower you. It has the sensuality of vivacity of visibility. It's it's living. It's living substance and something to which you're giving life and yet olive Stevens. Love doesn't cloud his vision. He sees bread for all that it is. When you combine all the ways in which it operates it is something that's quite infernal in terms of its capacity to provoke disorder. Bread is an object of necessity. There are three conditions that have to be met. Britt has to be of a recently good quality. It has to be of sufficient quantity so that all the people can be fed and has to be at a price does accessible to them to assure that everyone will be able to earn from the sweat of his or her brow sweat of brow his or her daily bread. It's an enormously potent force precisely because it's not an object of indifference think of think of Tunisia where the Arab spring was instigated initially by the soaring bread prices think of bread riots throughout the world. Two Thousand Eight two thousand eleven twelve where you had people brandishing lousy baguettes it in Qatif Wile Gobble to protest against the situation. I want to pet phone entitled movie movie. Ammo bad bread bad government. That's the way it's always been. We can see that bread asthma. Mississippi remains extraordinarily unforgiving in Frank. Norris's novel called pit. He picks grain as a kind of a maniacal ferocious unspeakably cruel force. Because those who control it control the world and those who are dependent upon it or at the hands of those who control it this was division of the end of the nineteenth century which was fiction but it was a fiction that was very close to an historical phenomenon which I think goes back five. Six seven eight censures. So I recently spoke with an archeologist who quoted jared diamond saying that agriculture was the worst mistake in human history. Do you agree with that statement? That's the kind of statement which is at once trivial and profound it. It can be argued that when people were hunters and gatherers and community work as much as required for them to stay alive which sometimes was relatively very little in abundance situations and to move into the permanent hostage situation where people have to suffer the tyranny of Agriculture. In Particular. Turn of cereals. Yeah I mean you could argue as diamond does that. This was a terrible mistake. The fact is that bread did exercise or cereals in any case exercise and still do a real tyranny. In many societies end tyranny was quite unbearable. So in this sense. If you'd like if you're keeping score you can count all of agriculture. As a mistake so brad gave rise to civilization and civilization brought oppression starvation war tyranny all the worst impulses of humanity. But maybe that's not all that civilization is maybe there's another way to look and breads legacy similar names. Reverend's engineer and I am According to the government of India the Custodian of the Buddha. I'm the head of the oldest Buddhist lineage of the world and I'm the author of the Buddhist Bible. I've been trying to figure out whether bread has been our salvation or our damnation and the Catholic priests in the mom and the Jewish. Rabbi told me that bread is a connection to the divine and I've also heard that it's been a civilizing force. Once we had bread. We were able to populate the earth much faster. And then we had leisure time which allowed us to create political systems and art etcetera but then I spoken to experts said that the spread of green and green based agriculture have destroyed the planet and our bodies and our relationships with one another. So what is your perspective on this question about whether or not bread is our salvation or damnation. Bread is the great leveler. And that's a very important thing. Bread is a symbol of equality. Because no matter who you are everybody needs some kind of sustenance which Hindi this rotate coupla Con Almost you've got your bread. You've got in a shelter place to live and you've got something to wear your good and everything therefore comes down to these three things. No matter how rich you are no matter. How for your About enjoying life and appreciating life but not being attached. The word is attachment. Here we are detached. It's what the universe brings into our lab. We are not going to say has to be bread and nothing else. If suddenly all the bread becomes corrupt or Fungi Laden and we have to find some other source of sustenance. We'll find another great leveler because the ultimate great leveler is God himself the divine and nothing can represent that divine power. That is perishable. Bread is is to perishable too fragile to represent something so powerful images This always good if you look at. The whole Buddhist concept is without darkness. There can be no light without hatred. How can you appreciate love without having really really bad days? How can you enjoy the good moments? The way we see it his without Mara there can be no Buddha without some Sarah that can be nirvana which means without all the hardship. And the struggle of laughing and beano fulfillment so yes ablation has its problems and yes it has its dark side but it is true that darkness that we can be instruments of light and stars shine brightest against the dark sky. So you've got to look at the good and bread is perfect. Nothing as it's messy but everything that is beautiful message. Diamonds in the rough civilization is a test. It's a big test but it has brought out the best enough flower water and time. These simple ingredients when combined have the power to transform in wide worldly ways and in the smallest simplest ways can tell you more about what my mother's bread does for me what it did for me how. I hungered for it how I longed. Just it's a Roma itself was a real teasing element growing up. My father was a farmer and there were oftentimes cases where there wasn't a lot of food around but there was always bread. Most memorable bread did bakery. Hala second nostalgic thing now now that I'm not living there anymore. It's like you just want it all the time. That's the my mom's because I love suge and Seattle more Surani Oman. Just a little piece for now. I feel like I would recognize that flavor. If you give me five gets home different places I would definitely your hours into it and you have the sensation. Hot patty had butter dripping off. It and I was on a train and had that hot cup of tea. Yeah it was what we call a better. Which was kind of squat heavier version of the budget. It was the summer of nineteen sixty two. This was my first taste of any French bread. I tasted it in Luke's who had a piece of cheese and a bottle of wine and I didn't even touch the cheese or for that matter the wine because I was so spellbound by the sensation of the breathe in my mouth. The Aroma entered into. My cortex was the best thing I ever tasted. I think I do like Brent. By the way as a matter of fact my wife used to freshly to grind wheat and then make bread. It felt like you were connected to genuine substance at the planet boy. This is a tough question. Remember birth and the cost would be differential. Get I think was number on November sixty days and dishes. When I'm countered of steps time in my life for someone who go up as a boy in Jerusalem that I encountered. They're different kind of bread tasty one so of course the combination of the beget plus a glass of wine and some cheese. Like a common bit. What else can ask for the story of bread is every story? It's a love story and a war story a story of injustice and a story of divine providence. It is and life is ugly and bloody brutish and short but it is also soft loving open warm and we can hold all this complexity in our hands. could relate to fast. You're listening to bread the rise and fall by producer. Veronica Simmons Sound Design by John Spence head to our website. Cbc DOT CA slash ideas for more details about the guests in this episode. Thank you to all of our guests. I'm I'm the one when ended cuisine. My name is Johnny Canal Market Lockard big company and Kensington Market. I'm Rabbi Jonathan Rubinstein. A rabbi at Temple Sinai in Saratoga Springs New York and operates a bakery. My name is Richard Manning. I live in Montana and I'm a writer. I'm Happy Valley and Imam and author and chaplain serving the Muslim community. My Name is Steven Kaplan professor of European history at Cornell University America's Fleming Professor America from Santa Clara University Father Damien McPherson work. I serve as the ecumenical and interfaith director for the archdiocese of Toronto. My name is offaire by yourself and I'm a proposal of base stoical geology Meritas with Harvard University published of anthropology. Thanks as well to freelance. Recording producers. Nate heggie Rachel Fisher Christina Lauren. Lucas Willard and Emma Jacobs technical production by Dave field than you'll do vowel and Austin Pomeroy Lisa. You so is the web producer for ideas. Nikola look shit is the senior producer. The executive producer of ideas is Greg. Kelly and I'm Nola I-IT Don't live Mara to ban the only one thing my mom could Jordan off their lead boy. Fan and drag turn Late in one. Turn MY MY MOMMA COOK. Show for more. Cbc PODCASTS GO TO CBC DOT CA slash podcasts.

Lucien bread Brad God Brett Richard Manning writer Veronica Simmons producer CBC DOT CA obesity US India Cbc Harvard University Toronto Rabbi Jonathan Rubinstein Steven Kaplan Bryson Janet Fleming Damien McPherson Santa Clara University Neolithic Revolution
Ep52: Sara Jamil on Compassion, the Harder Skill

In Search of the New Compassionate Male

53:35 min | Last week

Ep52: Sara Jamil on Compassion, the Harder Skill

"Passion is not a nice to have. Not a soft skill. I learned. Later in other way of framing it is it's a harder skill or heart skill hardin. People just don't get it, but it's a harder skill. Hello World. It's me Dennis and we are in search of the new compassionate mail the producer of this podcast and I'm here with my partner in the founder of in search of playboy can good morning Klay identifies how you doing. Today, we've got Sarah Djamil with us and you know Sarah. You and I have been on zoom calls I think we've been some meetings, but we've never really had the opportunity to sit down and talk now the emails and we know were on the same track together. So today we wanna hear everything that you're doing and learn from you. And so. We were talking in one of the things that is so profound. As it you're working compassion. That you do. The hard work which has worked from the inside out. That is an order of operations and that's what both clay and I are learning and where we're not that was what was so profound about your website in your work that you're working on Sarah first before you go out and take in the world, how did you get to that place route because we're in a next terrier is world where we try to fix things outside before we do it inside. First of all, thank you and I I want to bless this conversation with. Prayers as well and it brings me to. The answer to your question as well piece. Back in two thousand thirteen. I'm. Our family was going through. Let's say all the. All the storms that you can imagine in one year up personal life. Why's it whether it was fine whatever it was everything came together. That the year I I also turned forty and I mentioned that because. For me, the year forty spiritually is. The year were you can awaken if you choose to follow the prompts that than. That are around you and I'll say they were prompt light anything. In that year and What. Really. Actually, that was the birth of my. Journey into compassion and the birth of compassion. I The the organization or the venture that I founded eight hundred registered a little bit about that didn't really. Really WanNA learn about what you're doing. When I start explaining it so Compassion I is the name that I came up with it it. was because. I was struggling as a mother. To accept what was going on between my son and lie. About. Time. The motherly instinct to fix. Relationships or fix your children. Having control over that whole process of. You. Know your child actually doing their own girl wing. I had a hard time. And I learned. That for this and I'm seeing the devastation, my family I have had three children. My son is my. Two daughters, I was seeing what? the turmoil was doing within the family unit. and. It was a conversation I had with my husband. Were he actually asked me to Sarah this is really hard. I need you to. Take. Care of yourself. Because if you go down. We're all going down. We rely on you being. Like a healthy. And so I. Took that advice. And some personal development courses, my husband, and I both enjoy this journey of evolving and. That really that's compassionate. Man With me hearing. Karen Armstrong speak on Oprah's. Bristled Sunday. And I heard her definition of compassion heard about charter compassion. And her definition wiles. McRae's because I'm not very good at memorizing. please. Remember were. Look within your own heart and see. What gives you pain and then decide that under no circumstance. Will you inflict pain on others and I learned after I added on myself And the paint was that that was mother that pain the bond with my son was breaking. So I that's how I experienced it. And I couldn't bear that I couldn't do anything about it about time. But I didn't know how to channel that so. I after listening to Karen I. Searched up. Okay. What's this? Charter for compassion and that's sort of where any coincided with the personal development courses I was doing at the time. We have to think of a project off. Reaching out to community build community. I was very active at that time in my. Children's school. Council what would that be in the US? Center dot the pair Teacher Organization. and. I really wanted to bring the whole concept of compassion. Into, the school community. So. Long story short into help compassion. I was born basically it was a lot of conversations having at home with my husband what was starting up inside of me and and. Were saying got to do something what's coming up and. Then, we had to find a name for what was coming up and and my husband was asking, what is it you? What is it? Important to you right now. And it was number one, I believe compassion is is the Solution. To all the Auditions. That we could ever. Experience whether within ourselves. In Relationships or in systems like in in in. Any kind of institution organization order whatever that system is. And I believe we should put that first. Starting with me as a mother putting it. I. That when a better world starts with me, the my tagline or my affirmation came naturally from that conversation. That has stuck with me I still have. Trouble explaining what is it that you do other than? I am living that message and I have seen firsthand what living that message. What what energetic. Influence it has had around me whether it is in my home, my daughters. Are So aligned with the work. So they're actually part off whatever events workshops whatever we're doing my. Daughter's twenty three. The younger one is eleven. If you she if you ask her, she will tell you my mom is the definition of compassion. If. You can do that in your home. My. Son. Still I'm struggling with that limit. Can you just get it as well but I think he has he just has A. Hot It's from a whole different angle so That that's where you know compassion for started where I was like actually mothers or is it children or daughters What is it that defining what that is actually went a little bit in the background and I was more focused on hang on I'm actually seeing how This is evolving in how? This concept is growing. Organically, and that's what I. What I really like like about our conversation today is let it happen. Like that the conversation happen, you don't have to script it. You don't have to just need to have an intention. Dennis. How many times of we? This is an organic process. You know we're on a journey where in search of. Allying with you. And Clay. This is this is our role has men because we we are. We look at you and go okay. Imagine we try to imagine us as children in having these conversations when we were young men and not not having a space to to express that not even to have the language to begin to express because it's hard you're digging through testosterone you're digging through through a lot of pretty heavy. And a world. That, we're having to deal with clay. You you. You get that right I do and is Sarah as you were talking i. You know I draw pictures and mind maps and stuff and and as you were talking, I, saw. Mother and I saw the Sun. In the daughters came bill evolve from other. But the sun has got to make a break. To go find out what it is to be a man. And so he's alone. Because he wants you to tell him. But no, I've got to find out from another man and he may go to his father's father figure who may not be there. Physically emotionally or spiritually. and. So the young boy balances in he looks up. So what is it to be a man and more times than not? Spins off and ends up, getting getting himself in trouble and that's ME. Mine and many others of our age. Yeah, and IT'S It's really tough. It's really tough because. We love our mother. And For me I grew up not trusting men. So I was in this void. And left my own devices to figure it out. So I. I can relate in a certain to a certain extent. To your son, you know everybody's experiences are different but I see some parallels. I love how you're able. Sarah how you're able to help him have. Words and experiences and modeling modeling modeling that you're modeling for him how he can be by by practicing self compassion yourself. He's has a model of someone in his life whether he can get at that moment or not. We delay at sometimes like like it takes a while for us to get it before it finally goes Oh. Yeah. It only took me fifty something years to figure out figure out what mother was telling me when I was ten years old. Oh that's what she meant. I get it now I'm sorry she's not present for me to say that to her. Let's see what it is patients as well that I've learned to lessons from. What the hardest years were. Actually seven eight years of what I called. My Soul was crushing Jeff. But realizing those were the lessons. You can only think that way once you've done the work on yourself once you awaken your. So once you listen to those prompts are coming and I will add I'm. I got much closer. I'm a woman faith. I got much closer to my. Version of God. been the MO the darkest hours. And I believe my son had a very dark moment when he turned on a towards help from us? That dark moment when that was happening. I was feeling it. I didn't. I'll tell you what how I I it was on our walk walking outside and fresh air nature has been my Meditation. And? I was walking and I. Saw Squirrel, cross the road and I saw that Squirrel. Get hit by a car. And I saw that Squirrel. Suffer. And I was crying I was watching and I couldn't do anything to help dot pain that it was going through a washed it die. This was from the pavement. Just happening. that. You know when a Finnish is out of water in and IT'S What's called? Splash he's fleshing around. That suffering hasn't left me. that that paint that what I felt? and. So that's when my heart I think really just. It just I was like Oh my God I couldn't do anything here but what happened I was witnessing Succumbing to what happened to it. And I and I found out later it was around that time. My son was experiencing his moment has call it between lifetime that DOT And and. So I'm like. This bond is definitely there. Yeah. You're you're working you're working schools Sarah. is mostly with with girls and the girls in school. No the the work data. At my daughter's school was. It was not community minded like with what can we do for our? For the classes like working with teachers thinking of ways on how to. You know the word kindness. Is. Used more than the word compassion this wasn't experienced I had. Scattered having conversations around compassion in schools it was actually viewed as something religious and we don't. have. It. And that was the. I opener for the Kindness was easier to use. While I think kindness. Dennis. I was sharing with clay I listened to your. Interview with the Myth Salon. The other day I was listening I. Listen halfway and I made a note A. Of. Your when you were talking about compassion. Being a saw skill but more than that. Let people usually you didn't say it was wanted to be other aspects of so the whole spectrum that has been my. Fight is. Oh compassion is not a nice to have. Not a soft skill. I learned. Later, another way of. Framing at is. Harder skill or heart skill hardin bit. People just don't get it but it's harder skill. Why is it? We call compassion something okay. We'll get to that. But hang on that actually matters more than one plus one. And I haven't been able to. Create programs, per se yet that I could Implementing schools but it is conversations that I'm so focused on I've. Found having conversations. Is the first important step it is. It's not so much that I've start flagging. Hey, here's compassionate. I you. Do you WanNa just bring any what I'm doing I am really finding I am struggling whether though because you know you want to create something that can be seen, but then it's like what I am creating as this. And I'm creating children creating. I am creating an awareness in my children in my family and I mentor girls. So I do mentor girls in my face community and I've done that for the past twenty plus years when I was in Denmark I am from Denmark? And and I do it to this day. Mentoring in both the religious teachings that we have but more. So on character development on who am I and how can I use the teachings that we have that just not accepted in the part of the world where we are as you know, we're kind of struggling with a little bit wider. We have to learn best when it's not like that long legal out bridging that. I am better at it because I was born in a Western country, I was raised in it I became a teacher in that I. AM living here still so I can brace that gap of of an. Connect Larry Well. When I communicate hot conversations still not when I'm doing one on whether it's the Arabic alphabet or. Not The formal, it is the sole to sole connection. That's what I'll use whether you're male or female when I have conversations I have learned. Have learned. I'm very good at sifting or filtering past what I'm seeing and I can actually. Connect with the soul. And that's where I that's where I can offer what I have whatever that is while you know. Connect with that and. I appreciate what you said. Kindness, you know Dennis. I was an Sarah I'm. Trying to get my arms around love people say it's all about love. It's all. An example for me is like trying to grab Jello what is that me? And so compassion. Became for me love and action. So as more tangible, but you've taken it to another step which I absolutely love. To, take it to kindness. That's award that gets used and I never thought until you said it that there's people who think compassion is a religious is religious. Oriented. and. Really gives me that's why we had these. That's why we had the conversation. I love that because kindness is like a key to the door of compassion. That can help us get in it will because it is a struggle for us but once once kindness if we start at kindness that you said. That's something much more universal that we can that we can start the conversation and then dig up which is why when clay. So beautifully framed this when you frame this as in search of it means that we're not we're not there. We're not out of place and saying come and visit us at this place called compassion Lemme teach you know. We are here to learn. You know there's a the other thing you brought up. I got. US. When you made the point about heart skill. and. It's a harder skill. Boy that just says volumes says youthful where A open my my entire inside when you said that just completely broke something broke open inside. I felt such a rush A. Astonishing Sarah. I heard this from having the conversation with one of the children who compassion. Stop that I work. With n were having a conversation on this. That I I get so upset when I read in a newspaper, you know wherever I read a compassionate, the soft skill, a dislike. I just cannot take it end end choosing she had heard from somewhere else forget from wears I. Hope I. Find the source so we can give credit. I think it was A. Gentleman, who had? Shared an suggested. Let's try looking at it this way and when you do, why is it harder and why is it? A lot of. People choose not to work on themselves not to see the prompts not to. Grow. Because it's hard. Scary? Don't WanNa do it alone Yeah you know. Sarah Hughes. You posted something this morning. That was beautiful and. I think it was sparked from part of our conversation. With the myth, Salon on, we touched on servant leadership. Can you talk little bit about what you shared with me? Yes so it was an article that. what kind of a leader is that the world needs to? Right? Yeah. That's the essence and And we go back in history for that in that article we go. To. The Prophet Mohammad Him. WHO Was the founder of Islam but actually Islam-. It was revealed through him. and His. Way Of being his way of leading is with being is what I prefer because that's what this is about. HOW WE CHOOSING TO BE It's such a short. You know he's. Very profound because. What do I have to think about that? Yes, you do. have so so it's all about how was he as a leader? Because for us he still is someone you refer back you. Time again, M. and any other divine. A profit because we believe that they're all. Those. Things and and e skill is all character traits right? It's. It's all humility like humbleness. Extreme compassion. Macaroni. Tolerance like those kind of things but also. Justice like a sense of justice where you need to like. So the middle way you you can beat firm. But you can be firming loving. Way, oh. Yes. Unique soft or kind Moso like y y say either or it is. We believe he's been. So he was the evolution of whatever profit been. Had come over centuries. The. Human evolving spiritual human. New. To this complete package, what is the complete package? Will what the way we see a- is. He embedded all the divine attributes in him as a human. And that doesn't mean that said we leave it there why? Because he was an example For. The world to. To. To see it a truce because without exemplifying without without being an example, it doesn't. It doesn't sink in. That's what I love about your your your path and what you're doing in in your searching. And and working in compassion within yourself I. Because that is our path that is that is our direction. Do This I. Be Their first because we in in in our world out with with all the multimedia and the and the Internet and all it tells us. That, the the answer to my problem lies outside of me. If, I will only have this if I won't gain that. If I only achieved this. It will somehow SAV that br that that burning within me. And that's the deal that's the illusion, and that's what every great teacher. Always reminds me is that it's not out there and I must do this work i. You know that's A. Hub Boy I just was reading this learning about. The wisdom founding mythology. And I read where? There's. Three brightness that are that are happening. One is the midst of human. Progress. Where Morris Better And I believe that within that is the patriarchy. And then there's the myth of the fall. Which is Our Our successes are our failures in this context. We have done so much to make technological progress into you know and and go on. But we've raped the earth in the process. And the third one is. The Myth of. Paraphrasing of it doesn't matter. You don't have any impact on it anyway. and. Our Western. Culture struggles with all three of those. that. Lost One. It doesn't matter anyway. Is Accountability, responsibility. and. I would it's linked back maybe if you if we look at Western world or the Christian world. It made think back to the the teaching the doctrine of Atonement. Of, someone carried the cross for us. To consider that. Could it be that we have said, hey, actually already someone already did it for us we'd doesn't matter what we do. Because you know what I'm just you know I'm exploring this. I what in my teaching in the scripture that I study Every soul will carry its own cross. At also is burden beyond what it can bear. That's quoted from the Geron what does that mean that you? Off Tomorrow. After your life intentionally. Innings actions. Everything. Matters. So if I understand correctly the. The Myth of it doesn't matter. Your take quiz. Because The crosses are have been buried for us. So. Show up and do you do what you're supposed to I? Took it. As. It doesn't matter. Anyway let's go have a beer. It fatalistic. That's the same thing though. Yeah Go ahead help me. Because It doesn't like go and have a beer for me. A beer let's just. Live life to police and don't think about what's going to happen tomorrow because we don't even know if it's happening tomorrow, right? That's kind of But. When you're a believer in something bigger than you. Your also. So in my faith, we do believe in here after we do believe that the soul will ever die. We do believe that the physical body we're gonNA leave this at some point when we die every human. And we're live on so we must think about. What are we nurturing in our soul daily league because we don't know when we're GONNA die. We don't know when that's going to happen. So we can live in fear of it could we should be mindful of it. that. I'm actually not dying dying I'm GonNa Continue Living. So what do I want? What do so is a continuous involvement off the soul is a spiritual development that's never gonNA die. When you live with that mindset you have a little bit more perspective on. On the the wise of the world like what's happening allies it oh And Myth. Number one to all of them apply here. When you think from that Lens, it's all about perspective. Through the through the. These years seven years. Eight years talked about I. I wrote a chapter for a book and that was entitled piece an aim there. It's my quest for peace. So striving for something searching for something means it's a continuous. Journey. Continuous work doesn't mean. I. Pick it up today in forget about it for a week in the amine yet you can but you're still on the journey. And no Sarah I'm just so grateful for the opportunity to be able to see when you when you look out when you go to your the children, how at the schools that you work within this and you see two young boys are you seeing shifts in their? Sparks that they're that they're coming around that they're that they're thinking about that might not have been there. Before as your your senior zero awareness that these children because I know that when we were growing up, I'm seventy two clay is in his mid sixty. So we grew up in a much more rigid mindset culture as to what was there. This is an this is a different. This is a digital mind. These children are digital natives, what are you seeing out there and and as far as their their willingness to to think about what compassion and how kindness might be a doorway to leading in that to one another in in in in a world that can appear very polarized. So. There's a different. Layers to this answer I had I had a feeling I just asked a twenty four hour. Know but I'll. Am I seeing. At, one night see. Young men and boys. When you said it. Right away I was like depends how The Home Environment Nece It depends how a week the mother is. And the father is if you know if any of them are present in the home. generally speaking the next generation. Is. And the whole conversation at they're. More awake than we realize. They're thinking beyond these. Definitions and frameworks that we have. We have been used to. Their breaking those kind of American. whether more compassionate maybe. Kindness yes it is. Children are innately. So pure. So. Innocent. They're shaped by the environment right and so. It depends a lot on the environment what I'm realizing with the work that I want to do as it's actually mother's someone to focus on see our In my teaching is the rule and status of a mother. So sacred, but it's been perceived as something not sacred. It's been made pink. Something you're just a mom. Really. Is that all you do? And I fight against that like I. I really that's another thing the soft skill, the what you just among and Mutt. It, it's just societal. No matter what society you're in. The future. Of. The future yeah future generations. The successful failure It's hard to say but lies in the mother slop. What does that mean? We? We have a saying of the Prophet. peace be upon him. That paradise lies of the feet of mothers. What is Paradise First of? All Right? it's just a concept is not case. Feet of mothers in her stocks. What does she modeling? Who she but she know who she is to she really know machines is. The capacity of mother. That is far more important than the titles I can accumulate and the money I can cumulate in this world as a mother. Doesn't mean the mother has to do everything. What does it mean? It means everyone has to support. The mother in doing what she is here to. Mother. To mother. Whether she becomes a biological mother or not. That's same. Instinct is present in father's to in Manitou. Is. When we go down Isn't that what you're talking about Klay about why you did this as the Compassionate Mayo Not Compassionate Man yes. That's exactly right. You know the in the beginning I was sitting here gone. Well, I'm going to write this book about the New Compassionate Mail. Our. New Compassionate Man and then I realized no no, no, no no. That energies in. US just like the Divine Feminine Energies and all of the so it's I'm going to write the book about the. Male. Will Win am I gonNA be ready to write that book. Have that answer because I'm in search of the new compassionate male and then the light came on and said, oh, that's what's happening here. Not Profess to have the answers. But the. Combination of all of these, what you bring to the Party the what you've woken us up with here. is another piece that builds towards that New Compassionate Mail? So I can nurture my mother I can nurture my. Divine Feminine and at or I can. I can. I can express nurturing. That is an aspect of the divine mother of that of having that as as part of that in every one of my relationships. Really. That is what it is. Right it's it's the. Compassion. Beyond gender? Our Creator is beyond gender. Our soul is, beyond gender. The gender that we've been assigned in this world in this body. Is a function we have to get beyond and I think we've had this conversation play from you in the twenty twenty series the interview with Around gender reconciliation. Question will. Of beyond. Reconciling Genders. Whether it's feminism are not. We are kind of stuck I feel in this congress also especially when I talk about Islam in. Islam. View on women cost to defend what does it mean to be a Muslim? Right. Defend because. There's this stereotype. Like you know actually in the Koran and our teachings focus isn't that much on that focus is much on the sole awakening the sole working on itself like nurture your soul and it is equal. For Men and women. Where there is from difference is in the function that we have as a man as a woman as a father as a mother as husband as a wife as whatever. Function. But it has been perceived as so that's where the patriarchal. Interpretation has happened. The Muslim countries outside? Exotic. US All this and start portraying it as whatever, and then the ones living with it want to live with the teachings like what I actually really. Well you know you have to kind of say well, and instead of preaching it, you come back to a better world starts who may have to live it to be it. That's the only way we can. Touch hearts. That's the only way can inspire is through our own example, not putting ourselves up here but constantly reminding ourselves that we are on a journey I am on a search I'm not an expert. But I definitely have learned something and if you'd like to know I will share it with you. That's what I. Love about about when we remove comparison from that because the instant I attempt to compare myself to someone I will find myself in a hierarchy either above or below that that's what I. I'm not as good as or I am much better than that's where I go. But if I go is is I. I am the perfect. Embodiment AB- dentist hard on. That's my only goal is to be the best embodiment of this particular unique. Soul that happened to be here, there is no way I can compare myself to you Sarah or do you clay because instant density I do I lose the mission You got. That's that's so that is what it is. At the same time we cannot do it alone. Her social. And and and so there's A. Very, wise designed to life to human creation to olive creation everything's designed with some wisdom. And so. You know how isn't it better when what by ration- Do you feel when we're talking like this then when we go into a total different vibration light. Right. Just like. In nothing's working. But Hey, maybe something is working let's just raise ourselves up and. When were you were talking about being the Dennis I'm supposed to be it. I really love the original meaning of. Education of to educate do. From Latin. Draw out from within. Okay haw found. From within we already. From creation from the start of creation. Think about the design. We have been. And given the talent abilities to. Become the best version of ourselves. We just need maybe some help to drive out what is what does that look like? Isn't that? From support from community. Ships from your interactions with other humans. Even with animals and with nature. Something is drawn out every time you have encounter. That's something thought. And that is to be human. To to be a human. A soul in a human body have. It does not for me get better than this right here with you too. Because this is what community is about. This is sitting here as open hearted. As I see both of you as open minded as of you, all of us working hand in hand. On this journey and because they're doing a lot of study right now in in field theory that we carry fields around and there's an opportunity to lift to a higher frequency to a higher level and we've known this you you've been sitting in a room when somebody walks in and you and. You can feel it. Right so all they're doing is putting the science to what this was just like we didn't invent radio waves radio waves were there long before we had a receiver to be able to do so I feel like this conversation. Are we get a chance to raise the frequency of the entire. Planet of the consciousness of what we have by having conversations like this. That's that's what makes me really that raises my It makes me even more passionate about let's continue these. This is the work and unfortunately it's not recognizing wherever. To make it. Well, this is you know, but it doesn't matter. I love you. Keep saying yet. Long love you're saying that? Because you know we know everything is about. The. Weather is first deconstructing and whatever you know. Yes. There's lots of deconstruction going on right now. and. That's okay. That means something else is to be learn this and so you have to have that mindset if you want to. Have a healthy mind. But you need support in knots what I learned through my work as well as. Is. I love building community. and. So I'm focusing on women and girls because that is where I feel. I can connect better, but you know we are connecting here to it's just sometimes messages. Are received better by someone from your own. Not Round as well. But that really has my my my my my intent is. it doesn't matter what back Romy, Yar our human experiences the same. You know to your point. And I agree with you. The men's circle that I've got in the men's work that I do. Is Work that men must do with men. I've said. Times that from consciousness standpoint again, a gross general big general generalization. But I really couldn't believe that women are a bit more conscious than men. and. You'RE NOT GONNA. Come down here to meet me where I am I got to. Come up here. So that I can engage conscious beak on the same level consciously and have to do the work. We have to do the work, and that's that's what we've got to do with one another to learn. The the good part of being a man. Modeled by the other men around us and to be able to create that space which goes against the grain. 'cause you know we're in competition, we don't trust each other. So we're isolated. And so how can we be educated? How can we bring it out from within and being a community to help bring it out from within if we're isolated? And that's where the Patriarchy which emphasizes competition doggy dogg getting to the top. Systemically that it works that in this interconnected synergistic world, there is a different way and this is where where I get to, we get to learn from women we men are learning how to connect into our hearts, not leave her head behind but to integrate. To bring in the. Lunar Masculine Which is Yeah, which is what we're talking about from the lunar masculine is work compassion. It is born for us. And then for women. The SOLAR FEMININE Are the leadership switch, which are Kennedy's to have our have our amazing leaders and leaders of countries, leaders of business leaders in the work that we can. That that that that that we can have this. So we're. You you personify. So beautifully, you're absolutely radiance are in in that I. we can see I I see your power, your boundaries, your clarity, the work that you're doing your certitude, all of these. Are Solar Feminine. principles. As I am beginning to understand, you have to understand I if we have this conversation in six weeks, I'm going to go. then. You really thought. About Dennis you. Idea what you were talking about, but this is the level to which I can I can understand it at the moment that this is what I love about learning. I love that as our awareness grows. You don't we just start seeing things life. In a new light but like you said before earlier on. It was always there. Your awareness just you weren't self aware enough right and and That's really what it is and and so. Being, we have to continuously strive to keep learning and we have to let that Eagle it's greed. It's the power. Of. Wait for power. What's that GonNa get you The you know sometimes it's just. You can wake up. But Off. The thing. Right it's not like I still have moments of comparison I. Still have moments where I don't feel good enough. I still have moments where I'm like, what do you think you're doing? And all those long it's are just as important as. The moments were have clarity or where I feel confident. They're all part of the learning. If darkness is so wiser if darkness isn't there, you will not see the light both were created by Creator. The darkness and the light so we have to accept those. I love out ceremony up and down right the involving you have to have something bad. Imbibed again a very shooter Omar. That there's healthy unhealthy productive unproductive. You know. Let's use other word words. Does and Sarah. That's one of the things that I love because if I can can have compassion for myself. About all the darkness that is that that that exists and? Exist to my journey if I can have compassion for myself. Then, I find that I have a much. A much better chance of the next time that situation comes up. Not Repeating it but the less compassion I have for myself, the more I judge myself the more the more I will then. Have a struggle with it whenever I am faced with that situation again. S. And Bats the wisdom? That's what it is. and. It's So I I really I believe. That whatever work I was supposed to do here you were supposed to be if you were doing it it may not fit in a box. That the world wants to fix put it in or fit it in another thing that I. I, feel like I struggle with the want to get Rada Are these boxes on label And we do need them sometimes to we do need it to. I don't make sense of things. That's fine. But it's not absolute. But is absolute. Is Love and is compassion. And Kindness Your key being. All. Thank you. For Your Time Today thank you for that for joining us. Taking US modeling US for being such a gracious guests clay. What is there to say? Will you come back Yes, we love free to come back to continue this conversation because it's So so enriching. Thank. Thank you for joining for inviting me along the journey and Sarah what a what a lovely what a lovely opportunity to be able to meet you and thank you everyone who gets a chance to watch and listen. To this particular podcasts up in search. The New Compassionate Mail and we will see you next time.

Sarah Dennis US Klay Karen Armstrong Sarah Djamil founder Sarah I Sarah Hughes McRae playboy Myth Salon ME testosterone Karen I. producer Larry Well Jeff partner A. Gentleman
MAID in Canada

Stereo Decisis

1:00:38 hr | 2 years ago

MAID in Canada

"Welcome to Stereo decisiveness. It's the podcast about the law in Canada and beyond I am Robert Downey Council with Chaperones Kramer Fiterman Lemaire anything hoover. I I am joined today by Oliver. Police blank of police blank law also in Vancouver. Are you doing oliver of doing good things or ask him excellent and we are also joined today by Hillary Young Professor at the University of New Brunswick Faculty of Law aw in Fredericton New Brunswick Hillary. How are you today. I'm great. How are you rubbed. I am excellent and happy to be back together with you guys after a little bit of hiatus as we were diverted from our usual weekly podcast schedule well with other matters but it's nice to be back together with you guys again and on the show today. I think we're going to follow the format of doing a little lightning round. I where we talk about very briefly about some of the legal stories that were in the news in recent days and then then we will talk at somewhat greater length about another topic about which Hillary has a lot of expertise which pertains aims to the question of assisted medical assistance in dying and arises out of a highly publicized case that was in the news recently involving involving Audrey Parker in Nova Scotia so to the lightning round and we're going to need to come up with some kind of we should have like a lightning sound that we can use at this stage so story number one for the lightning round refers back to a story that we discussed on our last episode with Guest Host Emigrant Mcfarland and that has to do with the lawsuit involving ving the Mayor of Ottawa Jim Watson and he was sued by several individuals including criminal defense lawyer her Emily Taman who is also a former professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law and others and it was all about the question question of whether or not there is a right under the charter of rights and the flight to freedom of expression in particular not to be blocked by a politicians and other public figures on twitter and we had a very spirited debate with Emmett Macfarlane on our last episode about that very very question he was very skeptical and dubious and I think we were somewhat less skeptical about that idea but it turns out that we're about rob is that it wasn't going to settle. That was the one thing that we could all agree. That's right. That was the last the last the last point was like well. We'll definitely feeling get to find out what the law is because there's no way they're going to settle but in fact they did settle much to our surprise certainly and it really really it's one of those rare things you really don't see people changing their views on on pretty important matters like this all that often so this is kind of remarkable just for that fact alone and so essentially the mayor of Ottawa. Jim Watson decided that the the people people who had sued him including Emily Taman were essentially right and he released a statement on October Sixteenth sorry he was sued on on October sixteenth and then he and he basically said upon further reflection mayor Watson agrees with this view and has decided added to directly address the specific concerns by unblocking B.'s persons from his twitter account moving forward and he's essentially conceded that for all intents and purposes his twitter account is a public account that he uses primarily in the exercise of his day to day duties as mayor of the city the of Ottawa and he in fact encouraged other public officials to act in the same way and so this doesn't tell us anything really about the question of whether or not there is actual charter right to knock be blocked by a public figure on twitter yeah. I was just GONNA say. This doesn't mean mean that we were right in Emmett was wrong. It just means we still don't know the answer. No that's right but one thing that this might start heading towards is is more of a norm being created which is that politicians begin to view their twitter accounts in their personal accounts but if they use them substantially for their public duties then they start to view them as kind of like a public forum that their their constituents have a right to to to to to connect with them on and of course this doesn't preclude the the Mayor Jim Watson or anybody else from muting people who are just really annoying to listen to but everybody else can see see all of the the the that person's rants at the mayor and then other people's responses to those rants and so the the public conversation station can continue and and perhaps this will start to emerge. Maybe not as a legal rights but as something that normally we kind of agree is the way that this should be dealt with it just seems like an easy solution to have that mute option it doesn't seem like it costs too much to do that as opposed to blocking no oh and and and and maybe reserve blocking for people who are truly abusive and and the racist or sexist or or whatever so all of that make sense to us it sounds like so story to in our lightning round also refers back back to another story that we dealt with previously on the podcast in a new development in that which is an announcement by the Minister of Public Safety Safety federally in Canada Ralph Goodale that he has created a new policy that would make it harder for people like Terry Lynn McClintock who was convicted of murdering young girl Tori Stafford word from being transferred to what what are known as indigenous healing lodges after there was a tremendous outcry by members the public by the father of the slain child Tori Stafford and of course by the conservative opposition in Parliament and this new policy doesn't apply specifically to Terry Lynn mclintock's but what it basically says is there's a new rule absurd the correctional service of Canada's Deputy Commissioner for women that would have to authorize transfers to ensure that indigenous communities are engaged engaged in transfer recommendations so that actually is specific to the indigenous healing lodge aspect but the would have to also take into account factors to any facility when if the transfer is to a facility that doesn't have a controlled parameter which is was true in the case of the particular are healing lodge to which Terry Lynn mclintock's was apparently transferred to so they'd have to the the CFC's Commissioner Deputy Commissioner for women will have to look at things like what is the length of the offender's sentence. How much time do they have before they're eligible. Under the law for for an unescorted temporary absence they'll have to they'll require that long term offenders have to be in this very last stage age of their correctional plan which is preparation for release and also just generally take into account institutional behavior for those who've been serving serving long sentences so this is kind of like a new policy that is intended. I think to put in a framework that would make it perhaps a a little bit harder for transfers like that of Terry Lynn mclintock's to go ahead but it doesn't necessarily mean that in her particular blur case she won't be allowed to to be there any longer though it very well may apparently when goodale was asked if the new rules will apply fly to current inmates as well as future ones he said yes and it will apply to Terry Lynn mclintock's in particular so so there has been some movement on that file as well and the third story that I'll touch on in our in his case by that was rendered by the European Court of Human Rights which concluded rooted that a law that prohibits blasphemy and its application to ensure that law was in Austria in a particular case where a woman was convicted under that law of defaming the Prophet Mohammed when she essentially actually had some kind of a seminar where she spent a lot of time talking about the fact that in the Koran the Prophet Mohammad has a wife who was six years old at the time of her betrothal to the Prophet and she really dwelled on the fact fact and suggested quite explicitly that this meant that the Prophet Mohammed was a pedophile and she was convicted under this law in Austria and I think she was charged. Something like five hundred fifty euros as a fine but she challenged all the way up to the top courts in Austria and then onto the European where she was unsuccessful and then to the European Court of Human Rights which upheld the conviction not violating the right to freedom of expression and because what the court said was that defaming the Prophet Mohammed goes beyond the permissible limits of an objective debate and could stir Europe prejudice and thus exceeds the permissible limits of freedom of expression and I am pretty sure that and that would not be the same ruling that a Canadian court would make and I'm certain that an American court would also not make such a ruling and that it's an interesting side note the in our Criminal Code we actually as of this moment still have have a provision it's called blasphemous libel and it's section two ninety six of the criminal code and it appears so we do have a very similar to that of the European that was upheld as constitutional in by the European Court of Human Rights in respect of the Austrian parallel provisioned and but our blasphemous libel section is one of a number of what what are referred to as Zombie laws in the criminal code because they're they're on the books but almost never used that are just on the cusp of being struck from our criminal code through bill c the fifty one which has received third reading in the Senate and other similar Zombie laws that are going to be relegated to the Ash Bin of history three include challenging someone to a duel possessing or publishing crime comics and fraudulently pretending to practice witchcraft. I Know I love that. One right like you're live to practice. Witchcraft is just so long as you're not being fraudulent about it. Yes that's right fraudulently pretending so so if you actually do it fine but you may not pretend okay so let us move on to the main story that we we are going to talk about today. Which is the story of Audrey Parker who was terminally ill woman in Halifax. Who died died using medical assistance? I think she died on November first and an her case raises a number of very interesting issues about the law that we have in Canada that permits medical assistance in dying and and there was the story on this this the story in the Globe and Mail about Andrea Parker and and her death ran up about a week ago and Hillary was quoted in it so I will turn it over to you hillary give us some context and some background about about this particular issue and the particular circumstances of Audrey Parker Yeah Jane Parker had cancer and it had spread to her brain and she was not ready ready to die yet but she was concerned that the cancer might affect her capacity to make medical decisions and in particular decision Asian to to choose medical assistance in dying because the law requires that a person give consent essentially in the moment right before the lethal injection is given and so if you lose the ability to consent in Law because you no longer have capacity then you can simply we know longer have access to medical assistance in dying so she she wanted to have another Christmas and new years but she decided to make arrangements for made quite a bit earlier than that so that she wouldn't end up in a situation where she would have to suffer from her cancer because she couldn't consent to medical assistance in dying so she couldn't get medical assistance dying and so she went to the media and not has has really Sean a light on this question of so-called advanced directives for medical assistance in dying. I'm just GONNA call. It made advanced directives so the idea that you could make a decision in advance of incapacity that would take effect when you lose capacity to make your own decisions agents so that you could then later have medical assistance in dying and I think one of the reasons why the law is set up this way is because of the concern about for example people with dementia diagnosis wanting to make advance requests us and some people think that's fine. Some people think they should be allowed to do that but there are concerns around not really having a sense of what that experience we'll be like whether a person will actually be suffering at a certain point and whether it sort of reflects what they would actually want at the time yeah and I I think you you you were in the Global Mail article you. You talked about that a little bit and you. You presented it in an interesting way. I thought because you you were sort of saying which which version of the terminally ill person gets to decide because it's not like they cease being a person who has they may not have the person with dementia may not have capacity anymore to consent as they get closer to death legally but they still might very much enjoy life at that time and and if asked do you WanNa die to the extent that they would even understand that they they might say no and and it's interesting to think about the version of the person earlier when they didn't yet know what their experience of of dementia at an advanced age would look like gets to tell the person later on who's you know some people respond to dimension you know in a way where they're actually quite quite content even though they have no real sense of what's going on around them and that person doesn't get to choose and so. I could see how that is certainly a a difficult question no well yeah and I guess one response I would have to the argument that I made made myself is what we allow advanced directives for all sorts of other decisions including decisions to withhold life sustaining in treatment so we already allow people to make life and death decisions in advance when they have dementia and some people would say well. What's the difference right. You're you're you're leading a whole lot rests on the distinction between you know not intervening and intervening right the idea that you would just not do. Cpr We are not provide antibiotics or remove the ventilator on the one hand which you can choose to do in advance but you can't to choose to have someone take active steps to end your life so people who really advocate for advanced directives for made for people with dementia would say it's arbitrary contrary to deny them that ability to choose. I mean I think the suffering part does come back into at our law is very much grounded in the the the requirement of suffering offering no suffering is assessed on the basis of what the patient themselves considers to be intolerable suffering but that is a requirement so you have to be suffering and I think gets a bit tricky with these advanced requests to know whether someone is suffering eggs essentially or ORF physically in a way that would satisfy the law otherwise it's ironic though that the concern is that you not make an irrevocable sort sort of decision at a premature stage and yet the incentive here was to force a woman to make an irrevocable decision netted premature stage that's a good point yeah because she wanted to to live she said until around Christmas and New Year's Eve which she says they were talking about Audrey Audrey Parker. Yeah I do things you know. Oh you might change your mind three months from now and not be able to communicate that but go ahead you. I can do now like that seems an odd result. I mean I understand the incentives that get there and I think the concerns you raise about not knowing doing where you're GonNa be at when you lost capacity is a significant concern but the the result also feels feels strange and illogical in a way that you would yeah I noted the irony myself and and I I was teaching made in my health law class plus last week and so we were talking about this. I think I think in some ways situations like Audrey. Parker's are easy to address in the law. I think hardly anyone although I don't know if you live with a cross country checkup episode about this on Sunday so I won't say no one but hardly anyone would object to someone in Ms Parker situation being able to have made even after she's lost capacity and the difference between her and someone with WHO's making an advanced directive when they were in advanced decision when they have an early diagnosis of Dementia Menchaca is that Audrey Parker already met all the criteria for medical assistance in dying. She already had a grievous and a remedy -able condition. Her natural death was foreseeable. Although I always kind of stop and then chuckle over that one because no one knows what it means no the law requires that one's natural death be reasonably foreseeable which we all try to figure out what that means given that it can't mean what it should mean but in any event she already met the criteria right and she she had consented and she after having met all the criteria and so I think most people people think that's a relatively unproblematic situation. I think he's still questions about then well. How do you decide then when the time is right if the person has lost capacity but I think that can be sorted out yeah and another another sort of perhaps unintended consequence that runs contrary to the purpose of this law. Is that the need to give consent like right before you actually get the medical assistance can cause people to have a dial down there painkilling medication if only for a window of time so that they can be passed the test of lucidity which of course causes an increase in suffering during that time when their pain meds are are turned off or down and and so the law seems to by requiring that that ability to freely consent immediately before The the medical assistance in dying kind of incentivizes additional suffering which of course the whole point of the law is is to reduce suffering. Yeah I've heard that too and I sometimes wonder whether people are applying an overly rigorous understanding of the law capacity because all you you would need to have capacity to make this decision is to literally understand what death is right to understand that it's the end that it'll be the end of your suffering that it's irrevocable and to understand the consequences of that and that's about it so you could be quite impaired. It seems to me and still have capacity but I guess that's a that's a separate issue. I don't know whether the capacity assessments are actually being done on that basis or not but if they are I would think you could have quite a bit bit of pain medication and so long as you're still conscious. perhaps have capacity for you. Take your decision decision. Do you know the questions that are asked in that kind of capacity assessment out actually works. I don't because again it should simply be the same same kinds of questions to ask in relation to any medical procedure where capacity is specific to that procedure right you just have to have the ability ability to understand the basic facts in relation to it and the ability to understand consequences so first simpler procedures. Someone might have capacity for that but not have capacity for more complicated procedure so it's not a test of your general mental state. It's very much specific to a procedure so a young child might have the capacity to consent to you know having a stethoscope placed on her chest to listen to a heartbeat but not got to decide whether to have chemotherapy or not so I think these things sometimes get a forgotten on. It'd be interesting. I don't. I don't know what the answer to that is but it'd be interesting to know how those capacity assessments are being made. Yeah you gotTA think fit. There's going to be a fair amount of variability based on which doctors making the assessment mint and I am. I bet you on borderline cases. If you attend doctors you might get three or four different sort of views as to whether this person had capacity. They weren't sure it's clearly didn't have capacity which is a challenge. I think in a number of these criteria for medical assisted dying saying that it's not a blood test to see if you have a virus. It's not a you know a clear scientific yes or no you meet this criteria or you don't but rather other it seems like there is a range of interpretation and every single one of them and it's what makes this subject so hard to to legislate or for the courts to set out criteria when they review these these things is that you are dealing in a gray area with capacity acidy and what a what's intolerable suffering what sei you know reasonable foreseeability of death and the stakes are really if you mess mess it up. You could be liable for homicide so it's such a tricky area. It's true and I certainly can't blame physicians for airing on the side of caution. Shen where they think something's close to the line but of course the laws full of these sort of imprecise con sal and and we know we know the benefits of them in terms of you know the law could have said you know if you if your death is likely within six months of a doctor sits certifies is your deaths likely within six months and some made lie in other jurisdictions does say that but this was meant to be a little more flexible right so oh yea the we learn law school the benefits of flexibility avaricious certainty and they certainly both have their benefits and drawbacks yeah ah again though even with that if you had to be that within six months you get medical disagreement on that to united it's so hard to have an objective criteria for this and then if you're going to say well you know maybe. I can establish capacity down the line then. You're going to be in a position where you're at the whim of which doctor you have. You know it's it's a hard hard question and I won't disagree. I I don't disagree with you that the stakes are high but I think they're not as high as maybe some people think they are ripe to meet. All these criteria you basically I mean an almost virtually everyone if you look at the people who have availed themselves of made it's people who are late stage cancer late-stage. LS certain respiratory conditions conditions. I mean these are people who were very near death and are in a lot of pain right so so the the stakes are high but the stakes are the difference between another day or two in horrible pain or not in the vast majority of circumstances but isn't that the stakes for the patient understand but isn't the stakes issue also for the doctor. If you assist someone dying doesn't meet the criteria correct me if I'm wrong but that would be homicide. I mean a doctor can't go along killing people who don't meet the criteria and if the is found clearly not meet the criteria you know that's still homicide rate for sure but you have to independent. Senate doctors who have to agree that the criteria made out and also. I just don't think you're going to have much of a lot of a desire to prosecute where something's really close to the line yeah yeah so. I just it does tend to err on the side of caution and so again that creates a bigger incentive to not roll the dice on a later capacity capacity determination. We should also mention that in terms of the requirement in the law that death must be reasonably foreseeable forseeable at the time that a person wants medical assistance in dying that specific provision is being challenged orange in in British Columbia and one of my colleagues at Shepherd Kramer Sheila Tucker. She is represented. She's one of the lawyers representing the claim it in that case Ms Lamb and that's actually a really interesting case because it involves a woman who has a degenerative disease. I'm not I don't recall what it is. Maybe Multiple Sclerosis now. It's the spinal oh something's genesis or something like that. It's not ms right but the point is at this moment and it's a young woman who has has the disease and it will get worse. I believe as she gets older but it is not foreseen that she will die. Yeah I as a result of this illness anytime soon but she wants to have the legal right to terminate her cell phone in her own life with medical assistance when she determines that when she satisfies the criteria of grievous and irremediable remedial suffering which he probably. I don't know the facts very well but assuming for the sake of argument that she already satisfies that criteria the only thing she's missing is reasonable reasonable force reasonably foreseeable death and we should say that in the in the the Supreme Court of Canada case Carter where the Supreme Court struck down our old criminal code provisions which completely prohibited medical assistance in dying and made it a crime to provide assistance the court really didn't didn't touch on this question of should death be forced reasonably foreseeable at all it wasn't really the central issue and so when but when the government passed the law to remedy the problem identified by the court and Carter it added this this requirement and that's why it is so controversial. What do you think Hillary. Do you think that that that requirement weyermann ought to be removed from the law. It's interesting so I actually made up a sort of list of least to most difficult issues that you still need to be sorted out with this legislation and I had this one somewhere in the middle. I think I think it's hard to justify and I have all the sympathy in the world for for Ms Lamb. It just seems perverse to say you have to continue suffering for decades as oppose today's precisely because you have decades to live that just seems wrong where I have trouble with. It is in combination with other other potential changes to the law so for example. If you removed the inability the of minors to have made so people under eighteen you have to be eighteen or older to get made no matter how near your death is no matter how terrible you're suffering. So if you're a seventeen nineteen year old with terminal cancer you can't get made and a lot of people want that to change as well so I wonder if if the law were changed so that minors could could access it but then also you no longer required foreseeable natural death but simply well and I think it's a little hard to distinguish to the grievous irremediable condition from the perceivable natural death even though they are separate requirements but anyway. I think you see where I'm going right the idea that if you start start to make you start to remove obstacles in one area can have implications for others you know. I don't have that much which difficulty with the idea of allowing a child with really paying. Well even even not mature in a sense because if you're well. I guess there's two different issues there. One is a mature minor. Someone who's actually got capacity than I really have no issue with that right but the question is August and you're getting more into Asia but the point is they're. They're close to death on their suffering horribly so whether that should be allowed particularly for for mature miners nurse. I have no issue with that but as you start moving some of these other pieces around if you if you didn't need foreseeable natural death breath what might that look like in the context of a sixteen year old who's suffering really terribly. I don't know maybe maybe the answer is simply. What Julia Julia Lamb says right if you're suffering horribly and it's a remedy -able which means not only not curable but the suffering can't be relieved then again again. Why should the fact that you're young and may go on suffering for many many decades mean that you have to. Cohen suffering for many decades I I don't know I I know that that that I have a hard time getting my head around it for children and similarly for people with mental illness right so when you start removing the requirement armant foreseeable natural death and if you allowed the not might allow for people with mental illness again. Some people say it should but you just just you open whole new cans of worms that need to be assess really carefully. Yeah I mean so in other jurisdictions like in Europe for example sample in in Belgium and the Netherlands. I think it is the case that people with just with mental illness can get get made. Is that right yeah. That's my recollection. You certainly don't need terminal illness. I think there'd even been cases and I'm not sure which jurisdiction precisely but it would be the Netherlands or Belgium where a woman was simply tired of living her children had predeceased her and she was sort of old and anyway just didn't WanNa live anymore so she didn't even have a grievous irremediable condition other than not wanting to live anymore and these of course we're the kinds of examples that were were were really front and center when the Carter case was argued and I think that the one of the arguments of the federal government as to why we can't allow any medical assistance it's in dying is that you know there will always be these marginal cases where the boundary gets pushed further and further and you end end up with a situation where people can effectively be pressured into into accepting or asking mm for medical assistance in dying when you know really that that that might not be otherwise appropriate it's the slippery slope argument all right. That's the slippery slope. Arguing is a it's a tighter way to say it and you know so. I think the federal government when they when parliament went past the the current law they put a lot of barriers that I think were intended to to sort of stay at the very top of that slippery slope and and not go down it and certainly the foreseeable death requirement is is one of those yeah and I mean a year to before Carter. I wrote an OP ed saying saying I forget the title of it but basically you know don't worry about the slippery slope and that's essentially what Carter says well right. They said there can be safeguards guards. We there are other jurisdictions. They have safeguards in place and if we don't want to go in a certain direction we don't have to. It's not inevitable that because you legalize made that suddenly a you know children who have minor conditions are going to be euthanized Gent. You know people who simply who have mental illness are going to be euthanized. I think you need to be conscious and aware and collect data and pay attention to what's happening and and bear in mind the lack of resources Jason and the need for better palliative care all of these things but I don't think that the slippery slope argument is a very strong one well we'll see whether or or not you know how lamb gets decided and we'll see maybe we can put the stereo decisive curse on it because I will say it is unlikely to settle yeah when we said that about the Jim Watson twitter case than it immediately settled so I I I I'm willing to say I think it's very unlikely that the federal government we'll settle with MS lamb. What would that look like exactly. I have no idea I mean it probably would have to agree to amend the law to to her satisfaction and of course she's personally not. I think that the lawsuit is associated with the yeah exactly. It's it's not really all just like a driven by one individual she sort of being put forward as in essence like a representative claiming who who represents a whole class of people and many people who are not yet in that class but might one day a soon be yeah. I expect this will go to the Supreme Court. Although who knows maybe maybe there's this jerry decisive curse any it's not the first charter challenge in relation to medical systems in dying by the way the or an organization of Christian. I believe Catholic doctors challenged the requirement by the Ontario College of Physicians and surgeons ends that doctors provide effective referral for made so no one suggesting that a doctor who objects on the grounds of conscience should actually have to provide vied medical assistance in dying but the college is saying you have to provide an effective referrals so if someone ask questions or indicates is that they may be interested in this and you want to object you have to make sure your patient is going to be seen by someone who will help them with this request and so they challenged this as being contrary to their freedom of conscience and freedom of religion and they lost it was the appeldoorn section one grounds right the the requirement of referral was not it was essentially minimally impairing and wasn't too much to ask of people who are gatekeepers to the medical system that's interesting because it's kind of similar to ah the issue in the United States that was adjudicated all the way up to the US Supreme Court about the had to do with I think private employers who had some religious beliefs about contraception being bad hobby lobby and hobby lobby the hobby lobby case and there was the law had been modified in in so that to such organizations would not themselves have to fund the healthcare our coverage of an employee who wanted contras access to contraception because otherwise the law required all employers to provide divided coverage but what they would do is they would have to sign a document that says that you know it's contrary to our religious beliefs and then the government would as a result of receiving that document essentially by itself provide coverage just for that contraception so I think ultimately the Supreme Court found that there was some sort of weird way in which ended without like a conclusive determination but but the the US Supreme Court but I seem to recall was far more more open to the idea that the mere act of having to sign a document saying that you know this is contrary to your religious beliefs when you know that the consequence of signing that document is that it will trigger the government to provide the very thing that you object to does in fact violate your freedom of religion and could be unconstitutional and but it's it's interesting and I think correct to say that that that should be the law in Canada with respect to this question of medical assistance in dying like it. A doctor should have to provide that referral and it's probably a similar situation with abortion. I imagined no yeah but just bacteria hobby lobby. I mean wasn't I didn't even more extreme case in that wasn't the the company's he's conscience that was implicated as opposed to here. We're talking about individuals. I mean the the institutional right to object is is certainly an issue here and we saw this week in the news was a a really sad story about someone who was in Palliative care palliative care bed they could get was at a Catholic hospital and the the ultimately denied this patient the ability to have made assessment on the premises and they had to actually go out and they started to conduct it on the sidewalk in front of the institution. This is someone this is someone who's not well right. and there've been other stories about people in I think including Jewish Institutions but certainly chin institutions where people are denied the ability of made assessment or certainly made and their questions about transferring them to other institutions at the last minute and it's just dumb these always questions of the ability of of institutions to invoke freedom of religion and freedom of conscience in this context and I think there's I think it's not obvious that they have such a right and particularly here where we're talking about publicly funded health institutions yeah so my my wife is a palliative care nurse here in Vancouver and she works for Providence health care at the Saint Pauls Hospital and also they have a hospice hospice near UPC and something she's sort of Zillions the policy I think of providence not to perform to to to provide medical assistance in dying and and my understanding is that what has to happen in a case where someone wants it is that they have to be transferred say to the Vancouver Hoover General Hospital which will provide that and what my wife is sort of noted is that there are a bunch of cases where you have these he's palliative patients who essentially can't be moved without causing them tremendous suffering and so in practice what ends up happening is that people people are denied access to medical assistance in dying because the institution in which they are being treated has this policy let's see based on religion not to provide that service and she also mentioned that similarly they have like an anti contraception policy. Z. And what that means is that that like birth control pills which are often prescribed for non-contraceptive reasons and so sometimes when they need to get those they have to you know they will often cross the street and go a purchase the the medication from a pharmacy and then walk it back to the hospital and somehow I guess that's allowed. I don't know but you know there's all kinds of hoops that ended up having to jump through often I think to the detriment of the patient and their constitutional rights when these religious just institutions are providing publicly funded healthcare and I think it's a big problem. I don't know that much about institutional rights to begin with but it seems seems to me not at all obvious that institution should have a right to freedom of religion at all right okay so now let's move on to our regularly scheduled drooled segments obiter dicta in which we each get to make a non binding recommendation that may or may not be legal in nature sure Hillary. What's your orbiter for today so I came across. Most of my openers tend to come from twitter facebook. I came across something on twitter facebook about a lawyer named Patrick Martin who's sending out demand demand letters to people who were caught trying to shoplift or even two parents of people caught trying to shoplift and demanding payment of quote unquote damages juice in relation to well actually one of the letters actually said in relation to the quote theft damages and conversion which automatically glee if you were lawyer receiving that you'd be like well often conversion or kind of the same thing in damages is not a cause of action but anyway so sending out these letters asking for money from people who've been caught shoplifting as supposed- like with the implication being that that this is a settlement of a civil claim that's going to be filed against them if they don't send money and in the case that the article in the star that I read was talking about it was an amount something like six hundred dollars that they were asking for and and so I guess and the these are big companies that hire this guy so Hudson's Bay Walmart that sort of thing and I guess it's really common almond these hundreds of these letters go out and of course it's not clear that there is any basis in law for claim that an attempted shoplifter under oath the store attempted to shoplift from the date that that if there were a trial that they would be found liable for anything so because of course they got caught right so they didn't steal anything in the end so my understanding is that this is kind of copied from us letters where there is legislation that kind of provides for recovery of loss prevention costs from attempted shoplifters shoplifters but we don't have that here but what really caught my attention in this story was that they cited this case called Hudson's Bay is white which I always teach teaching towards where the bay tried to recover cost of loss prevention from an attempted shoplifter and the court said No. That's not a loss yes that's attributable to any torque but what they did say kind of interestingly in that case is that it's a trespass to be in the bay or any other store with with the intention to shoplift the basically whatever sort of license you get to be in that place whatever permission you get from the bay to be in that place. does not extend extend to being there for the purposes of stealing and so there were damages assessed for trespass that were. I think one hundred dollars in that case and I guess it was increased to three hundred appealing including punitive so it is possible that attempted shoplifter could be sued and you could recover you know easily tens of dollars from them but you know but these letters are being the story in the star was about how this was just at at the very least disingenuous and possibly contrary to a lawyer's professional ethics because they really imply even even just being sent to attempted shoplifters. They imply that there's there's some liability that there may not be but they're also sending them to the parents of shoplifters who have no responsibility to pay damages for their children right so they're they're not responsible responsible for their children's actions for the for the children's shoplifting so anyway. I thought that was really interesting and it reminded me of something I think we talked about on this podcast gas before although you know now getting close to twenty episodes and I'm kind of forgetting what we've talked about but this question of sending cease and desist letters or sending letters no to not have a basis in law and whether that's an ethical or not anyway. I think it's unethical but yeah so something to think about yeah. I definitely sounds unethical. although I suppose if there is a potential cause of action with respect to trespass and you send ended to the children in question though of course it will be received by the parents I mean getting closer to being reasonable. Doesn't it yeah if that's what you're doing. But of course the addressee is not the the child Trespasser the sees the parents and the letter that I saw that was that was a picture of it in the star they said explicitly you are responsible for your child shoplifting and said a number of other things that were not true including that that they could recover damages firm the theft right so there was lots of stuff in there that was just a lie yeah one thing that it kind of reminds me of his I I will sometimes get these letters from private parking companies. If I have a parked somewhere or my wife and you know where you're supposed to pay for parking and you know that they had determined that I didn't pay enough for it expired or whatever and then they'll send a letter that looks a lot like a like kind of like a parking ticket that will ask for money and I we actually just I got one one yesterday and it says you know you owe us eighty five dollars for parking too long or in an unauthorized way and it's read the fine text it's essentially I think for trespass though I'm not entirely sure and I I have always been of the view that these letters are extremely dubious and essentially ignore them for the most part. what what do you think is. Is that a an appropriate kind of letter for those companies to send yeah that one. I think is a little more interesting right because well I mean. I'd have to think about it but I I think it's really interesting that you raise that example because just this afternoon whenever fans suggested did that as a topic for discussion on stereotypes Isis right this distinction between actual legal people with legal authority and you're sort of you know fear on campus parking tickets or you know your other sorts of things that look like there's legal authority behind them but there isn't so apparently one of the students that U. N. B. Has done a little research about this so maybe maybe we'll bring up the issue again on on another episode interesting awesome okay so Oliver. What what is your opener for this week. Yeah it's awesome. I'm so excited about this story. Did you see about the mysterious steriods interstellar comet that may be an alien probe that make it into your news feed yes yes it certainly heard the first half of the story and I'm like Oh. Oh they're taking this pretty seriously. Now has a pretty good time to leave the room and not hear how it all turns out so I'm curious to hear how it all turned up yeah well. I mean it hasn't isn't but more or less what happened is a Canadian. Actually astronomer observes a thing called and named did I'm not sure who named ooh. Oh You M. U. A. M. U. A. And it is a an object object was observed floating through space that zipped past our planet and couple Harvard scientists. I wrote a paper saying look. We've limited everything else we can think of and this might have been an alien probe looking at our planet and the reason they said so was that it behaved in a in a way that was unexpected. It sped up in a in a bashing that you wouldn't expect doesn't ordinary you know a piece of space rock sort of drifting slowly through space. It accelerated in a way hey that might have been associated with a solar sail is what they call it a yeah and that's a a mechanism to make an extremely thin probe that is propelled effectively by sunlight and it's a thing and you know we thought about using to explore extreme distances space 'cause he can send his things for extremely long distances and they they said the way this thing sped up would be consistent with that perhaps and with it being a solar sail it was all it would also be consistent with a comet however it didn't have the tail that you'd expect from a comet so because the comic can suddenly give off a bunch of gas when it gets heated up. I guess and that can cause it to accelerate but when it does that you see at a tail to it so so the these so these people said look when you rule out every you know sane explanation you gotta look at what's left and they said it's possible. That's what we saw. We this is alien. Probe coming to look at planner. into the scientists who saw at the Canadian astronomer said no reason to believe it is an alien probe. He put a little bit cold water on it but it certainly hasn't been conclusively debunked in any way that I can find any of the stories and I don't know I mean to me like I love that idea. I I hope it. I love the idea that you're not. GonNa love it when you're being served up for lunch to some kind of alien overlord. You know that's true that's did they'd be worse than trump no well. I did make me think what would we do with conclusive proof of extra sure terrestrial life like boy. That'd be a hard thing to square with a lot of religious beliefs and I think you'd see a lot of doubling down on extremist beliefs and you might see some people's minds beach. I think it'd be very unsettling thing for the planet's population to learn that that there was indeed indeed extraterrestrial life but I I'd like to. I'd like to find out if their world wants worldwide chaos. I'm pretty sure yeah maybe right yeah and it and it seems to me that it might have a salutary effect which is really The one thing that unifies is people is common a common enemy and letting the until proven otherwise you would have to assume I think that an aliens society would probably be hostile and so we would probably be as as a collective earth unified in defense in our common alien society to be hostage curiosity. We'll just out of abundance of caution. You don't know for sure they they are but it's like the the prudent course of action is to assume that the this some some alien culture that had the capacity to send probes our way eight through space could very well be hostile and I don't think to get that advanced. You have to be peaceful swap otherwise you have technology clearly capable of blowing yourself up and yet you didn't and you also clearly have abundant resources if you're able to get to that technological level so I don't I don't know so many so many of our advanced adventures come from military origins that maybe maybe having being not peaceful as we humans certainly are not is a is a is a driver of the kind of innovation that results in the capacity ready for space travel. I think you're right. It's not at all clear whether they would in fact be or not be peaceful but I also agree that it would absolutely bring us together in an US versus them kind find a way of thinking even if it you know even if they aren't a clear and present threat to our existence I think it would still make us realize allies that commonality that we all share there you go excellent okay and finally my obiter is a a story out of Australia which involves Australians sending just inundating their legislators. Peter's with requests for portraits of Queen Elizabeth the second after an article from Vice Australia Australia was sort of went viral and it pointed to a legislative quirk in one thousand nine Hundred Ninety Parliamentary Law Ryan Australia which requires Australian federal law makers to give away certain pieces of taxpayer funded taxpayer-funded national the nation hood material under something called a constituents request program and so so this in effect seems to come down to the idea that if you if you right to your politician and ask for a portrait of the Queen the they have provided hi to you and a number of different parliamentarians have complained that since this provision was publicized they've just been swamped with requests quest for portraits of Queen Elizabeth and some of them have instead sent out their own nationhood material in response which they sort of think is more appropriate like one. MP Tim Watts he prepared pictures of the Prime Minister the Labor Prime Minister Julia Gillard with Aussie Rules football hero Bob Murphy and invitations to a local barbecue in envelopes containing the royal portrait so they still provided the royal portrait but all kinds of other sort of more domestically glee relevant characters and ideas as well. We have a lot like that. We should start writing things. I don't know what do we ask for pictures up. I don't know I think this is an excellent place for us to put a pin in today's odor and an end the show and we will of course remind everybody to please review. Stereo devices wherever you get your podcast asked whether that's on itunes apple podcasts stitcher spotify or anywhere else of the many places that you can get podcast. Please review abuse there and if you're so inclined you may also be a patron on a patron dot com slash stereo decisiveness. If you you have any questions for us any recommendations complaints rants you can find us on twitter at Stereo Decisiveness and we're also on facebook doc so let us know your views about anything we sit on the show that enraged you or any questions you want us to deal with sort of like the the parking ticket issue issue those are excellent and we'd love to hear you so on behalf of Hillary Young Oliver Paulie blank and me Robert Downey we will thank you for you're listening and we'll talk again soon.

Audrey Audrey Parker Hillary Young twitter Canada US Supreme Court Jim Watson Carter Oliver Terry Lynn mclintock Mohammad European Court of Human Rights Europe Ottawa Ms Lamb shoplifting Vancouver United States Senate
The Moth Radio Hour: One Thing in Common

The Moth

51:53 min | 8 months ago

The Moth Radio Hour: One Thing in Common

"Now you can get enhanced security for your home wifi network with Xfinity X. Fi if it's connected it's protected now that simple easy awesome go to xfinity dot com. Call one eight hundred xfinity or visit a store today and learn more restrictions apply. Hey y'all it's Catherine Burns and I'm excited to tell you about a new podcast from the brilliant Padraig Tuma called poetry unbound. Padraig is a poet delusion and exceptionally wise human cajoled beautiful moth story that we recently featured on our radio our the episodes poetry unbound very short about eight minutes and full of depth and humor. I love the format. Padre reads a short poem from the likes of Emily Dickenson Tracy K Smith Ross. Gay that he briefly talks about meaning he then reads the poem one more time so you can take in more fully checkout poetry from our friends at on being studios new episodes on. Mondays and Fridays from Kiara. This is the moth radio hour. I'm Meg Bulls right out of the gate. From the moment we're born we start learning but a lot of the actual understanding part tends to come a bit later in this hour. We'll hear four stories of lessons learned. Our first story is from a shock. Rama Superman Ian. It involves one of those earth. Social rules were taught as children but may sometimes find a little difficult to put into practice even as adults. He told us at our Monthly Story Slam in Louisville Kentucky supported by local public radio station W. F. Here's the show live at the mall. Sometimes when I'm walking down the street people stop me and ask me for change Of course it's not change. They want they want money. But here's the deal like I always have change. I always give the money. It wasn't always this way and there was a time. I was quite stingy with my money. And this is how it all changed and it's my roommate. I was in the third year of my engineering school in India and one day. A relation of mine. Who's been overseas came back with a kit Kat. The candy bar a full ball. He gave it to me and he said this. Is Kit Care? They eat it in America and and it's amazing so been Yordan India and when you have a roommate Tradition dictates that you share this thing with your with your roommate and I looked at it and it was like nothing I've ever seen before it was it was beautiful and and I said I'm going to eat just a small piece. I mean I'll still share the bulk of the thing with a room. I mean no harm done. I ate a small piece. It was amazing and I said I'll eat a little piece more. I mean you know. This is going a pretty pretty soon. I had one very small piece of Kit Kat in my hand and at this point some kind of twisted logic ceased me. I mean what's the point of sharing the roommate's going to come home and I gotta explain dude. I heard this fool. Bond eight most of fit and there's only a small piece to share with. No the safe thing to do is to eat that also on on on. Hide the wrapper which we just did no now in my twenty one years in India in my twenty one years in India this Kit Kat has come into my life one lead two times. You already know the first time. No here is the second about two hours later. My roommate comes home and he's clearly delighted about something and enjoy is a concept. That's very hard to pin down. But you know it when you see it and I saw joy in the eyes of my roommate. He's the dudes clearly excited about something in his hand is a small paper Napkin. Fold up and he opens it off and inside a small one inch piece of Kit. Kat No unlike me who had wealthier relatives abroad. He a friend of a friend had given him something a small piece and his eyes were filled with joy of Sherry and and he said this is Kit. Kat they eat it in America and and it's amazing and his eyes sparkling with joy. I've never seen anything like that since or before. My own eyes more confused than anything else like I mean. What am I supposed to say dude? I actually had a full bar. I Eddie Hall so you should eat this. I mean so he so he proceeded to take a ruler engineering school. So there's all over the place and the rulers that be used one edge that sean the better two lines with so. He took the sharp edge of the ruler and he cut his tiny bit of Kit Kat into and he offered one piece to me. I ate it supposed to do it. It's too it's too complicated to do anything else. But you know to get cats in a single day within hours of each other the universe God if you will is trying to send me a signal saying dude you on the wrong parent you need to change and so I did thank you. That was the show Rama super money. He's an associate professor of mechanical engineering at Union College in Schenectady New York in an email. He said the Kit Kat encounter taught him to be a bit more optimistic to have faith in people. He said they're still good. People do good things Our next story comes from Jane Green. She told her that. The Great Hall of the Cooper Union in New York City the theme of the night with State of affairs. So I am not really a girls night out kind of go but when some friends invited me for drinks and dinner in the Sushi I said yes I needed a break from the monotony and I needed honestly to dress up and feel pretty so I took the metro north from my home in the suburbs and I got out of forty eight park in the middle of rush hour and as I was walking along Park Avenue I realized that was a sea of men in suits walking towards me. And I'm feeling pretty good and I'm walking along and I suddenly realized that not a single man even glanced at me and it struck me that at forty four and I was forty four at the time I hit become completely invisible. I was happily married. I was immersed in being a wife a mother and occasionally a writer despite the monotony of deepest Dhaka's suburbia and running around after five children. Two dogs five cats and seventeen chickens. Life was good. Life was settled and safe and warm life was what my husband always cooled pots and pans. I knew everything about him and he knew everything about me. Bought scratched the surface. And in fact we were going through something of a rough patch. We had no energy and we'd forgotten to nurture our relationship in fact we'd forgotten to pay attention to each other we exhausted. I used to say that a good night was being in bed by nine but a great night was paying in bed by eight and the highlight of a month was Chinese takeout. And I wasn't really happy a little while after the girls night out. I was invited to take part in a book. Panel on a book paneling. California and before the event. I was sitting in the hotel ball and out of the corner of my eye. I noticed a young dark headman common. Sit next to me at the bar and I suddenly realized that he was one of the other author's doing this event so I turned and introduce myself to him. I was instantly struck by how handsome he was. He had an amused twinkle in his eye. That was instantly disconcerting. We started talking. We talked about books and writing and Publishing and then we skip the small talk. We went straight to the real stuff to relationships and feelings and life. He was sweet and winsome and brilliant and it was the kind of conversation that you can only really have in a hotel bar with a stranger when you don't know each other and you can reveal things that you wouldn't ordinarily reveal. I remember looking at his face at his skin and thanking God you us so young and God you are so handsome and at a certain point in our conversation I thought. Am I going crazy or is he flirting with me? Is Is this chemistry between us and then I thought Jane don't be ridiculous. You are almost old enough to be his mother and I decided we were just having a lovely chat. We went inside for the event and we all sat behind this long table on a stage and he was the first one up behind the podium and he stood up and he said I was just sitting in the hotel bar with a very lovely woman and when I told her that I didn't know what to talk about she said Oh just tell funny stories and talk about celebrities and I died. I Sang my head into my hands. I turn bright red and my is were buzzing with mortification because it was true. I had said that but only halfway joking but all I could think about was. He said very lovely woman. He said very lovely woman. It was my turn next and I stood up and just as I was about to start talking I felt a tap on my shoulder and I turned and there was the author standing on stage with his oems outstretched for a hug of apology and so I stepped into the hug and there. I was on stage in front of hundreds of people hugging a man. I didn't know thinking what an earth is going on here. He asked what I was doing after the event and I had a meeting and then I was leaving so he gave me his book and I took that book home. I kept thinking. What was that? Was that flashing am I so entrenched in middle age that I have completely forgotten. Morton's like three days later. I left for London for Bookstore and I brought his book with me on the plane and by the time I landed in London I had read his book and I sent him an email. Now I said I thought it was a terrifying story. Brilliantly told and he wrote back immediately and said if you don't mail me your book I'm going to come to your house and stand outside your window like Joan. Cusack in say anything. I hadn't seen that movie but you can bet that within the hour I had and that scene which is one of the great romantic scenes in movie history and John. Cusack is standing outside. This guy's window with a boombox has a soundtrack. Which is Peter? Gabriel's in your eyes and I listened to that song over and over and over trying to decipher it trying to determine whether there was hidden meaning in the lyrics that one email made me feel alive for the first time in years. I- sashayed through the streets of London feeling vibrant. Tim Sexy and gorgeous. I felt like a completely different woman and we email back and forth throughout that trip. Every time I saw his name in my inbox I felt a small through the tiniest of flushes. It felt safe. He lived on the other side of the country and his emails made me feel beautiful. They made me feel desirable. All He'd have to do with some me three lines and start it with my sweet lady. Jane and I would be party for the rest of the day. Is this how fast start I thought not for me? I would never have an affair much to my dismay. His emails quickly dropped off. He still wrote occasionally. And when I see his name in my inbox I still felt the tiniest flutters but the truth is life got busy and better but I miss the excitement and a little while later my publishers. Foamy up and said we have an event view in La so we're going to send you out to La and I thought La Young handsome author is in La. So I got in touch and said Hey. I'm coming to town. He's a great. Let's get together so we made a plan and I went and found my husband and I said Darling I have to go to. La On September four. He said September fourth. I said yes he said. I don't think so I said excuse me I was affronted. He said Jane. You're not going to La on September. Fourth and I was outraged. I said I think I actually said this is my career. I'm going to La my publishers. Want to send me An. I'm going and he said Jane September Four. It's my birthday and I felt horrible. I felt terrible. Not only had. I forgotten my husband's birthday. I was planning on spending that day. Flirting my arse off with somebody else I come with you said my husband. We'll make a weekend down. I stood at my husband's like did caught in the headlights. My husband comes to L. A. And on the morning of our date because my husband is now coming on my date. I spend an awful lot of time deciding what to wear and by the way my husband knows about this author because shortly after I met him at that conference we did meet for a quick drink in New York. And when I got home at the end of the night buzzed from Martinis and flirting. My husband took one look at me and said Oh. My wife has a crush which I furiously denied. So we go to the restaurant and as we walk up. I see the author sitting outside on the bench and he still impossibly handsome and coup and he's got his sleeves rolled up and he's wearing aviators and we say hello. We go into the restaurant and we sit down and I say because my husband and the author are getting on like a house on fire and at one point the author excuses himself to go to the bathroom and my husband looks at me and says wow. He's the best looking man I've ever seen. So he comes back and suggests we all go for a walk along the canals in Venice. Amd before we go we stop it his house for him to get changed and I get to see the green grass and I get to see his house and it's beautiful it's very morton and sparse and serene and I think of my own house with cats and dogs and children and a chicken on every surface and pile of papers everywhere annoys and mass and chaos so we set off for a walk. It's a blisteringly hot day. And within ten minutes there are beads of sweat on my forehead and my hair has frizz up into what is effectively a cloud of cotton candy and the jeans which were already two sizes too small now four sizes too small and the sandals the sandals the I had bought specifically for the branch because they said Hey I'm casual. I haven't made too much of an effort but I'm sexy. It turns out there's sandals were built branching not for walking so I'm walking along fifteen feet behind my husband and the author and they our heads together and they're it's the major man love going on and fifteen feet behind them. I'm limping along miserably. With blisters forming. I'm hot and sticky and sweaty and I'm sore and all I can think his it bloody well serves me right and that night. I looked at my husband. Had his salty see dob gray bid and his big comforting hands and the way he has bore brought so much kindness and stability and love into my life and I felt ashamed. A friend of mine once told me that the grass is greener way. You water. It and I had forgotten to water the grass. The next day the office sent me an email and he said your husband's great he smart and handsome and lovely and I thought yes he is absolutely right. Thank you Jane. Green is the author. Seventeen novels sixteen of which were New York Times bestsellers. She and her husband continued to be very happily married and she's not forgotten her husband's birthday since the they did both forget their anniversary last year. You can find out more about Jane. See a picture of her her husband and her chickens on our website. That's at the moth dot org coming up. A young boy memorize entire religious text and only later comes to understand. It's deeper meaning when the moth radio hour continues. The Moth Radio Hour is produced by Atlantic public media in Woods Hole Massachusetts and presented by AP. Rx This is a moth radio hour from PR ex. I'm Meg Bulls. Our next story comes from Sheikh Omar. Al Qadri who was an Islamic scholar and the founder an imam of the Alma Safa Islamic Cultural Centre Ireland. He told this story at a moth main stage we produced doublet. You're shaking them are live at the mall. A long time ago before I started living in ardent I used to live in the Netherlands in fact I was brought up in Holland from the age of to my parents. Were Pakistani immigrants. My father was one of the earliest imams to growing Dutch Muslim community growing up in the Netherlands. I remember only interacting with Muslim families. All the children I played with. We're Muslims except at school. I once asked my mother if I could go and visit the home the House of one of my Dutch school friends but I was denied announcer. The reason she told me it's because we are different. They're different we eat halal food and they don't and it's not appropriate because if you visit their home you might come in contact with that food that you're not supposed to consume. I also remember that I had a relative who had non-muslim guests one in her home and she served them a meal in plastic cups and plates. When asked her what? The reason was being curious person and boy I always was. She told me because we are Muslims. And it's not appropriate for Muslims to use the plates and the cubs that non Muslims have used and I grew up in society and isolated atmosphere that engraved in my mind that I was different. We were different and my parents were very worried that their children would assimilate with the local Non Muslim community and would would forget their own identity. So I was kind of brought up in a religious solitary confinement. You may call it like that when I was nine. My father had a desire in wish. He wanted his son to become half of the Koran. Now you might wonder what a half is is. A half is is a person who has preserved the Koran in his heart who knows the complete book the Koran by in his by his heart. I started my journey of becoming half from the age of nine and the next two years in the day I used to go to school in the evenings. I used to stay at home memorized the Koran and at the age of eleven I successfully became office. My parents were very proud. I remember the organizers celebration in which I had to recite the Koran parts of the Koran in front of a large audience london-based Pakistani newspaper printed my picture and stated this is the youngest half is in Europe was only eleven. By the time I remember my father was extremely proud and I. I remember the happiness on the face of my parents when someone would congratulate them that their son is Hafiz from the age of twelve as a Muslim. You're obliged to pray five times a day. Now I would be at school and I at the age of twelve went to the secondary school. I remember on the first day of school. I tried to find a quiet space what I could perform my prayer secluded place. I found a place and I started praying whenever slim praised he kneels down and he prostrate on the ground which looks a bit awkward and I hope nobody would seem you but someone saw me. One of the boys of my class saw me praying and as soon as I went to the classroom after the break that same person who saw me bring imitated the way I was praying and start shouting allow a Kobe. Everyone started laughing. I felt embarrassed. I felt upset. I felt that you know. Did I do really something wrong? Everyone was laughing and they continued laughing the whole day in fact from that day for the next two years. I was bullied at school every single day. It would start from the moment. I would step in to the school bus and it would end until I would leave the school bus at the end of the day. I became a shy person. I lost my self confidence. I did very very bad at school. I used to sit at the back of the class and when the teacher would ask a question even if I knew the answer I wouldn't raise my hand because I was afraid people might laugh again. I stopped praying one day while I was walking towards the bus stop. I noticed that one boy who was very proactive in bullying me was standing with his friends. I would heavy feet. I walked towards the bus. Stop Hoping he wouldn't notice me but he did notice me. Once he noticed me he started walking me and he started calling me names. He started insulting me but on one on that day he did not only insult me. He insulted also my Prophet the Prophet Muhammad Peace Be Upon Him. I as a Muslim was brought up adore the prophets to honor the Prophet to love the Prophet. And I love the prophet more than anyone else. So when the Prophet was insulted I couldn't remain silent. I was so angry that I pushed the boy and he felt the ground when he fell on the ground. It was like all the anger for the past. Two years came out in the form of kicks and punches. I hurt him badly later on. I felt very bad about it but very moment it really felt good. I was shaking. I went home and the next day when I went to school. I was expecting to be in trouble but I was surprised as soon as I entered the school building. All the students rounded me. Everyone liked it and they praised me and they said wow. You did a good job grades. Wonderful suddenly everybody wanted to be my friend all does that never wanted to sit with me now. Suddenly they wanted to be with me. They want it to be my friends. I was very happy to be accepted now. I started a simulating because I was so happy to be accepted that wanted to be like this. I start praying already. I could have preyed now but I didn't because I wanted to be part of it. I started smoking which is not allowed in my religion. My parents found out by through one relative who called my mother once mentioned that she saw me smoking in the city centre and hanging out with my non Muslim friends. When I came home my mom had a good word with me and she reminded me that. I'm a Muslim Mahaffy's of the Koran. I could not be like the Non Muslims. I felt ashamed but secretly continued. Smoking and my parents decided after a few months that that was enough. They decided that they were sending their son to Pakistan to learn about his religion learn about his values so our center Pakistan honestly. I was very excited initially because of two things number one. I memorized the Koran by heart by. I never knew what it meant now. I was also happy because I was going to go back to the country. I belonged the country. That was my country. Always imagined that I don't belong in Holland. I belong in Pakistan. This is where I'm from but something shocked me when I arrived on the first day in my hostile and hostile warden introduced me to all the students and as soon as he left the students started talking to me about life back home and I couldn't answer them because I couldn't communicate very well in order. Do I spoke broken. They understood that I was a foreigner understood. And you know what they called me. They called me stranger. They called me foreigner. I was shocked because when I was in Holland. I thought I was a stranger there and I belong to Pakistan. Now I'm in Pakistan and it seems I don't even belong here. I'm even a stranger here. I continued my studies and during one particular moment I was in Islamic jurisprudence class. I was struck at a text. Read the texts said that you as a Muslim are allowed to eat from the same plate as non Muslims with the non. Muslims are struck. I was like this is not something I was brought up with. This is something I'd never seen during a class of the biography of the Prophet Mohammad. I was astonished to read that the Prophet of Islam used to interact with non Muslims to engage with non. Muslims used to have meals with Christians and Jews. I was astonished and shocked that this is not what I experience growing up in Holland so it started making sense to me that you know people are Muslims. They some of them. They don't have the knowledge of Islam ignorant about their own fate so I continued my studies and during holidays into Holland. When I was back home I had a wonderful time with my mom. Every evening I used to after dinner. Sit Down with her and has to discuss what I had learned one day. I discussed with her and mentioned that relatives that serves non Muslims in plastic cups and plates meals. She's doing wrong. Mom said what do you mean and I told her about what I had learned. My mom was surprised and she accepted what I had learned and she said my son you know better than me because he were studying the religion and that day my mom gave me a piece of advice and she expressed her desire and that was my son. I want to become a man of peace. I want you to be the person that promotes the true teachings of Islam Islam by the way means space travel back to Pakistan to continue my studies and one day while I am immersed in my studies are receive a phone. Call it is. It is my uncle and he tells me that you must pray for your mom. Your mom had an accident. My Heart sinks. I can't believe what I just heard and I started crying. I picked up the phone and tried to call my dad but nobody picked up the phone so I realized something must have happened the whole day. I spent it crying. I didn't eat anything. I didn't drink. Anything was continuously thinking about my mom and hoping and wishing and praying that she would be all right every time. The phone rang. I used to run towards it hoping that it would be my father and he did rang the next morning eight thirty. Am I didn't sleep that night? It was my dad. He couldn't speak couldn't speak on me which was strange and he gave the phone to the ankle to my uncle and my uncle told me whom are your mom has died has pasta. I couldn't believe what I just heard. I couldn't believe that I always heard about people. Losing their beloved one that I would be the one that would experience the same thing but my mom had passed away after the passing away of my mom. I decided I will continue my studies and complete my religious studies. I stood in Pakistan one day while I was studying. I was invited to an event in the mosque. This is Lahore. This is Pakistan one of my teachers. Shareholders slumped Huddle Qadri organized a multi-faith peace prayer in the mosque. As soon as I entered. The mosque staunched our shocked because I saw Christians and Muslims together in the mosque praying for peace. What I saw inspired me. It was amazing it was something I could never imagine. What's possible back home? There was prejudiced. There was `isolation energy and now here. I am witnessing in Lahore Pakistan in a mosque. People from different traditions coming together for one thing and that is peace verse of the Koran was recited. Which deeply inspired me up to this day. Which is mankind. You were different but come together on that. What is common among you? Another verse was recited. Which is very inspirational for me. That you may have your fate and let others keep your faith but come together on that. What is common among you and that is humanity and that is what you prolonged for altogether piece. That day. I knew what I had to do. I knew that this is what I want to do. After my studies I decided to move to Ireland with my wife and here in Ireland. Eleven years ago. I established almost defy Islamic center of violent through this Islamic center. Vision is to bring communities together. The vision is to promote the true teachings of Islam and ultimately to become the man of peace that my mom wanted me to be. Thank you L. Qadri founding chair of the Irish Muslim peace and immigration counsel. He's a firm believer in interfaith relations as Sunni Muslim scholar. He's organized and been part of vents with leaders from the Shia Muslim community when chicken mark participated in our main stage doubling. He shared the stage with a gentleman named Tommy Reichenhall who told his story of being held in the Bergen Belsen concentration camp as a child after the show shake mar invited Tommy to his boss wrote me later and told me it was a historic moment because it was the first a Jewish Holocaust survivor had been invited to speak in mosques coming up a mother of three faces unique challenge. When the Moth Radio Hour continues uh-huh uh-huh The radio hour is produced by Atlantic public media in Woods Hole Massachusetts and presented by Rx. This is a moth radio hour from NPR ex. I'm Meg Bulls and our final story comes from savell Abbott. She told it in a main stage event in Los Angeles which is supported by local public radio station. Kcrw here's savell. Abbott live at the mall about five years ago. My youngest child came to me in the kitchen one night. It was right after her freshman year of high school and she said mom. I really need to talk to you in private and this was my third teenager so I was worried. I know what private talk usually means. And it usually means I would have to take care of some problem or something might be slightly illegal or something that they've done so I was a little concerned but I said Okay and we went in my bedroom and my daughter sat down on Little Green Brocade chair I have and I sat down on the end of my bed and she turned to me and she said you know mom. I think that I think I'm gay and I was so relieved. I thought Oh this is great wonderful and because you know I kind of wondered what direction this youngest child of mine would take in their life and I was really happy that she'd found out something about herself. I tried not to be too excited because I didn't want to scare her. That I'd known something that maybe she wasn't too sure of so. We talked for a while and then kind of went on her way and sometimes I can be quite the helicopter mom so for the next week. I called some gay friends to ask them what it was like for them when they came out and how. I could best support my daughter through this process so about a week later. I was sitting out on the porch very hot summer evening. Drinking a glass of wine and my daughter came and sat down on the bench next to me and I turned to her and said hey you know. I've talked to my friends and we have a counselor. We worked with for many years. You know maybe you want to talk to somebody about this. Maybe you have questions that I won't be able to help you with. And she turned to me and she said you know mom. It's not a gay issue but a transgender issue. And in that moment I I actually thought that she was probably confused. I was confused and you know not quite sure how to respond to that or what to do in that moment said kind of let it just go for a week or two because I thought you know. Maybe let's just see how this shakes out and but but it was very apparent that that this was what was happening so I started doing a little bit more research because what I really realized at that point in my life as liberal as I was. I really didn't have a really clear understanding of the differences within the LGBTQ community and the differences that that happened between the that in that community and the people in that community. And as I did my research you know I become became pretty scared and pretty worried for my child you know. I really realized that there was a big difference between being gay and being transgender. And that one was about you know who my child would love and build a life with and the other was about who my child was in this world and and it was really scary. I'd been through a lot with this youngest child of mine and I wasn't sure if I could do this but we we moved forward slowly and all the sudden there were doctors and psychiatrists who are in our life and they were these adults who were telling me what I needed to do to make my child hole and that was really hard because I had the parent who knew my child. I knew my children. I was the one in charge. I had been the one who directed and help them with their lives and all of a sudden these other people were telling me what I needed to do and I felt lost for a long time at that time. Fifteen years when people said Oh. How many children do you have? You know I'd say well. I am the mother of two daughters and a son and that was a big part of my identity as a mother I started reaching out to friends and family and even just some acquaintances and kind of telling him what I was going through and and they would always say. Wow that's really big and I would say yeah this really big and they would say how do you feel about that and I would say I feel like I'm losing my daughter and it often felt that way. My child was changing before my eyes and I didn't always know how to deal with that one day. I was leaving the Y. And a girlfriend of mine came in and we've known each other for about twelve years. I hadn't seen her a couple of months but we had met when our two youngest daughters were in preschool together and they had become friends and my girlfriend and I had become friends and then a really tragic accident. Her daughter was killed about a year after we met and this really lovely beautiful woman had managed to move forward with her life and so twelve years later. We were in the lobby of the YMCA and catching up on our families and our jobs we similar jobs with nonprofits and and I told her shared with her. What was happening with our family. She's just this kind gentle person. Big Big is she said. Wow savell. That's huge. How do you feel about that? And I looked in my friends highs and I realized how selfish I'd been because my child had been able to come back and say well how am I think I'm gay and a week later. Come to me and say no really. I'm transgender and we were going through this really amazing process of transition and I got to be a part of it and I looked to. My friends is who had lost her daughter and I realized that I I really hadn't lost my daughter. I'd lost a gender a title and it was that easy say it's easy and it wasn't always easy being the parent of a minor child. Who is going through transition? Means that you really are part of every single step of the process and you're signing papers and giving permission for your child to change their name and to change their legal gender and to start medical procedures and things like that and and those processes. I WOULD. I would step forward with my son but I always had this kind of step back or you know with each one and emotional step back and then I would have to kind of reevaluate how I was feeling and then I would move forward again about three years into my son's transition. He came to me and said you know mom. The next step is top surgery and I really took a huge leap backwards with that one. Because I I loved my son's body and I couldn't conceive of somebody changing it. I sat in the psychiatrist's Office at an appointment. And I tried to convince the psychiatrists that my son's generation is really sexually fluid and find a woman who loved him for the man that he is with the body that he had and the psychiatrist gently reminded me that it wasn't about sex but about gender and identity and told me that my son thought of his breasts as warts on his body. That just really needed to be removed as quickly as possible. And that was such a hard concept for me because I I really loved his body. I had made his body. I felt like it was my body. I mean it wasn't mine but I felt like it was mine is his mother and we drove home from that appointment and my son was asleep in the car because he's a teenager and I thought about how I felt about my body as a woman how much I love my breasts as a woman as a mother s lover and I looked forward with my son when I walked into the recovery room. After his surgery he looked at me with this huge smile on his face and then he looked down at his chest bound for the last time and looked at me again. With this incredible smile he was so happy and at that moment his press became more to me so insignificant and unimportant and ten days later we got home and we were the car and my son took his suitcase into his room and a few minutes later he walked out of his room without his shirt on and he walked through the House like. Amandas for the first time he was able to do that and it was very calm and very quiet and really beautiful and incredibly natural. The hard part about telling the story for me is using the words my daughter or she or her. Because the real truth is that for the last twenty years. I have been the mother of one daughter and two amazing sons Bell Avenue the Mother Grandmother Artists. And humanist I. I heard her story on the moth pitch line and I was struck by our honesty and her willingness to share something that other parents might find difficult to talk about these stories. Remind me of something that one of our hosts Dan Kennedy said at the end of a main stage we produced in London last fall. He said if we get one thing out of all these stories. I hope it's that we learn. We should all just be a little kinder to each other. It's like that verse in the Koran. That shake more quoted come together on what is common among you. The one thing we all have in common we all have stories. 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The first foreign lawyer to practice in Afghanistan

Conversations

50:59 min | 1 year ago

The first foreign lawyer to practice in Afghanistan

"This is an a._b._c. Podcast kimberly motley grew up in the city of milwaukee in the united states and this wasn't quite the milwaukee of happy days and laverne and shirley vice homes and cheerful beer factories kimberly motley remembers milwaukee as the most segregated city in the united states with shocking crime and incarceration right kimball was working as a public defender in milwaukee's criminal justice system barely making enough to support her family some the chance to go overseas a well-paid program to train local lawyers kimberly jumped at it. The only thing was that the post was in afghanistan and she'd never been outside the united states before but it turned out the kimberley tenacious skills as a public defender served her <hes> well in afghanistan before long. She left the training program and started up her own legal practice in kabul aldona run. She learned the local criminal code as well as the key aspects of islamic law and managed to use the court system to turn miscarriages of justice against westerners and local afghan people particularly small girls who had been abused or sold into slavery and as for corruption in the afghan system kimberley's lor is give anyone a goddamn cents now just a quick warning some of these stories you'll hear distressing but many of them internet quite uplifting at the same time. Kimberly motley has written a memoir and it's called lawless high kimberly hi richard thanks for having me. Were you always interested in being a lawyer as a kid now actually actually when i was a kid i really wanted to be a d._j. Like that's really what i wanted to see. The world get paid more than as a lawyer music dance yeah so how come you settle for. We're looking instead of being fabulous international deejay now well you know it's just unfortunately i think lawyering fit my personality. It just a little bit more than being a d._j. Day you wake us it as a public defender in the walkie. What's that life like as a public defender. Will you know being a public defender. Walkie is a very demanding job and so basically the we our offices setup is each attorney is supposed to do get two hundred points each year so misdemeanors are less violent crimes. Get half a point felonies. Get one point so ultimately as a public defender each attorneys representing anywhere from you know two hundred and twenty five to three hundred clients each year themselves. That's wont that's more than one one day for every calendar day of the year. It's fine. I mean it's very common to have five different court. Hearings and five different courts at the same time. You're just reading from court to court and just defending people and so it's it's a very very taxing job so the life wasn't for you in the end you you decided that was just wasn't paying very well. Did you find much meaning in that work. I mean definitely. I'm so glad that i was a public defender because i feel like that set. My foundation are laid foundations of being a strong litigator. The benefit to represent so many clients within a short period of time is that you're in court all day everyday just litigating like crazy so you have a lot of trial experience. You get very quickly. You have a lot of motion practice. You get very quickly. You gather investigative skills so it's a very good thing i think for any when young lawyer to do to learn in order for them to learn how to be a lawyer nina from the prison either. I suppose you'd you'd go to prison a lot to actually visit your clients there. Yes so you'd always go to prison when you didn't have court vizier clients prepare for cases and things like that so yeah definitely told me about a kid called david that you ended up defending. He's kind of accused story. He is i mean david was a seventeen year old who i <hes> represented iwaki and so basically david was going to his school prom and and so he wanted to get his haircut and he goes to the barber shop to get his haircut while he's at the barber. There's a different barbers that are passing around a gun before they pass it around the actually tape the clip out the gun and they're sort of just passing it around to everyone just so that they can look at it and mayer it so when it gets david davis hands chance he looks at the gun he turns it over and he pulls the trigger and when he does that he actually <hes> shoots and kills another seventeen year old who was also getting his haircut for the province but there was the clip was out of the gun wasn't it. That clip was out of the gun but there is one in the chamber. Oh always david when this heaven seventeen eighteen so you defended him in court i did what what kind of kid was he anyway. I mean it was a very good kid. He was a very well liked. He had a job. He was bound to go to college. Who's going to be the first person in his family to go to college. <hes> he was good grades. He was sort of the the kid that you want to the have and and the interesting thing is when david was told to leave the barber shop he goes home and he talks with sister about what he had done and at the barbershop get outta here get outta here so he goes into the sister and his sister gives him like fifty one dollars and tells him to go run to chicago and don't come back. You know you need to hide and so david takes the money and he she packs a bag and she takes he takes his backpack with all these clothes that she stuffed in his bag and he walks out of the house gives a sister one last hug and he ends up walking to the police station and turning himself in so that's the kind of kid david is when he was at the police station he confessed to what had happened and the police asked asked him to write a confession and so david decided instead of writing confession he wrote a letter to the kids mom about having about her son about having just killed him basically apology letter saying what he did saying that he had seen this kid in the barbara. She didn't know he who he was. We had seen this kid the barbershop many times and he looked like a nice kid and he's so sorry should've known better than to have that gun and his father has always taught not to have a weapon so that's what but he ended up writing when he was in the police station which i think really goes to his character and so what was he looking at once. You brought him into that courtroom well. He was looking at fifteen years in prison he was that's a real long time for what he had done and basically david wanted to plead guilty right away. He did not want to go to trial. He just wanted to get it over with as s. fast as possible crushed by the burden of guilt from this this terrible mistake. Yes definitely definitely so what did you do. How did you defend him. Then we'll basically i thought the best way to defend david would be get letters from his teachers and his friends and his family that you want to add to his file and sort of talk about what a good kid david was so i had probably about thirty letters from different people which we could you know say what a great kid he was. I you know got his grades and whatnot and so i created this whole you know file and this my sentencing arguments of what i was going to argue about him being good kid to sort of present these as mitigating factors so that the judge could lessen his sentence because basically we didn't have even offer so long story short when i was sitting there next to david and listening to the prosecutor kind of hammering on him about what he had done somewhat kind of making it sound like it was an intentional crime when it really wasn't and so david sitting next to me he added he was wearing a suit that his father had borrowed to him and it was very big on him so it was this kind of swimming in the suit his head down was was down completely the whole time he was just silent sort of silently crying so when it was my turn turn to speak you know the the the judge said okay miss. Molly is your turn and so stand up and i'm ready with all my letters and whatnot from teachers and i start to speak but then i stop and i just can't speak for. I don't know why it was the first time i've ever felt like that in court and so just looking at david the just kind of looked at me like miss motley. It's time for you talk and he actually said that again like we don't have all day and so what i ended up doing is i ended up sort of reaching to the back of my file and reading out loud the letter that david had written to the victim's mother a letter that no one in court had ever heard before the victim's family certainly wasn't aware of it and i read that in court and it was very hard for me to get through that letter as very emotional at the end of the literary said. Are we stayed instead. Didn't he yeah he did well. I mean it was just i mean everyone was there was so much tension that i felt walking into the courtroom with david's family early on one side of the victim's family on the other side and they just the victims have just hated david stanley and it kind of felt like after i i read the letter there was this commonality and everybody realized that it wasn't just one kid who's life was ruined that day or you'll there's one kid that obviously will died which is yield the alternate of victimized but also another kid was also a victim of a crime and so every all that tension it seemed like it disappeared this any forgiveness between the victim's family and david's family up to that. I thought one thing that was really amazing is that after after the judge sentenced him which he ended up giving him three years in prison and three years probation which was a great sentence when i walked out in the hallway i saw david's mom and and the victims mom serve in the hallway consoling each other and for me as a lawyer that was a real teaching moment for me because i tried to try to bring humanity a lot into the way that i practice law and so i thought that was really beautiful that both the women were served consoling each other and recognize that david was also a victim to a lot of people outside the united states would be asking the question. One of the big questions of this case is. Why is it so normal for kid to handle a gun in a barber shop in the first place. We know the want the cultural prohibitions in place. We put that thing away. I get that thing out of my shop but you kinda argue that in the courtroom in america kenny and i suppose that works for you does it well i mean the thing is ridiculous. I are gun. Culture in the u._s. Is is absolutely ridiculous and we really can learn a lot from australia about how we should legislate guns but i just don't understand it. People still allow these guns in community has that lead into you wanting to get out of milwaukee and into afghanistan guns there too. I believe we'll kimberly yeah. Eh you expect guns in afghanistan. You don't expect when you get a haircut you know and that's the difference so how come how have you make the leap from the taste. We'll basically <hes>. I went to afghanistan in two thousand eight. I really went there for the money you know it was. I was working at public defender. I wanted to get my family out of milwaukee. Guillermo afghanistan presented the opportunity to make more than triple my salary <hes> and so i decided i thought okay. I'll go there for a year. I'll make money then. I'll come back back to the u._s. And continued to be <hes>. Probably my own practice continue to be a criminal defense attorney impressive stories to tell but that's not how it panned out what happened when she got to do. Afghans stan would change well it changes. Why was i was sent there to capacity. Build is the term art. The legal system afghanistan sent there to train a mentor afghan afghan defense attorneys destroyed why that have been sent to capacity build just towns m- yeah. I know yeah i mean did you. <hes> what does that mean capacity build it was i mean i didn't know because when i went to afghanistan was the first time ever left the u._s. So i had no idea what these programs were or whatever i was just kind somewhat excited added scared to go and to be honest. I have to put the students well. I mean so much damage has been done by americans going to a place like afghanistan good things as well but mainly a lot. The damage has been done by people. Let's tell you how to do things our way over the did you did. That thought occurred to you while you were there well. I thought that it was a well intention program program to be honest and so i was going there with good intentions. I think generally most lawyers we're going to have ghanistan with the best of intentions to really help with the legal system but you're right when i went there and i was in this program. I realized that's exactly what it was. It was uh us telling them what to do. Which wasn't right you know going to work. That was a long standing patents of figuring out. How viable works then i mean. What did you think about that well. I mean i thought again. The program was the way that it was written was a good program. It made sense and it wasn't like the afghans didn't want it. You know there was obviously they also wanted the program. I just believed achieved. There should have been more sort of camaraderie between the two in developing the program and what i found is a lot of americans including myself came to afghantistan thinking this is what with our knowledge of what the american legal system is like thinking that is what the afghan legal system is like but it's not at all so you you made the decision which was apparently at righteous to actually go and see how local court works known done that in this program until you your decision to do that don't let that experience going into a local courtroom and and seeing how it worked with within that environment yeah i mean i mean that's one thing that was crazy to me. Is that it. It was actually kind of ridiculous that i was hired for this program because i zero international experience and so when i got to have ghanistan i really wanted to learn what the legal the system is like in afghanistan and so i went to the different i went to court to observe in no other lawyer had done that and this program had been in existence at that point time i believe five years and so my first court experience was going to afghanistan's national security court which is the court where they're presumably supposed to bring terrorists through <hes> the courts and so i'm sitting in court in a really excited and the judges are very excited that i'm there and they bring in the sky and and this guy has a bag over his head and his hands are shackled together at his feet are shackled together and he shuffles into court. He's <hes> escorted by three police officers as soon as court started one of the police officers ceremoniously rips takes the bag off this guy's head and that's what starts arts court and the guy is sort of standing there trying to get his bearings together because now all this light is reaching his eyes and so long story short the prosecutor stands up he reads the indictment which is basically basically says that this guy's taxi driver and that while this guy was driving a taxi with three other other customers and to understand how taxis work in afghanistan they work like an uberpool right so everyone's here's taxis and so when the police stopped the taxi they found guns and cell phones in the car. Is that unusual. No i mean everyone has guns and cell phones. I mean it's very normal to have that in afghanistan. So why was he pinged then why was he picked up as a potential terrorist under the circumstances i mean i just think they just needed to justify the court frankly and so oh i mean there's no real reason because when they looked at his phones. It wasn't like he had numbers of terrorists. He didn't have any you know terrorists. <hes> i don't know leaflet. I don't know what you would have as a terrorist didn't even have like bombs and things like that and when the prosecutor read the indictment all he said was guns and weapons others guns and phones in the car our and this guy was in a in a terrorist area which doesn't really make sense because you could make the argument that every area afghanistan's a terrorist area and then he sat down and that was his whole case with the accused defense moya representing him no he didn't have a defense lawyer and also the prosecutors didn't have any witnesses no evidence nothing laughing so he gets found guilty gets sent away as as a terrorist and he's convicted as a terrorist god right he was convicted didn't have an attorney the first thing he said out of his mouth was. I'm a taxi driver. I'm not a terrorist and he says if i'm a terrorist bring the person before me that accused me of being a terrorist unbeknownst to him. You know invoking his right to confrontation tation which is a right that he has afghanistan <hes> the end the judges serve held up a piece of paper but you sign this confession and the guy said i can't can't read and he said they tortured me and he tries to show like the court has bruce says said they torture me for that confession now in order to basically well what i learned later was happening happening is that he does not assign his name so what they do. Is they thumbprint your they take incubate thumbprint your your print on a blank piece of paper and then they put they were writing confessions on blank piece of paper saying these are the confessions so there's all these abuses of natural justice here. He's brought in and check that bad to begin with knowing representing him. He's got a very luckily a forced confession. The whole process is spurious and he's convicted anyway by the court but here's the thing was that true to the afghan legal will code was that actually an abuse of the afghan legal code what had actually happened. Did that occur according to law. It's one hundred percent and abuse because it actually afghan laws. <music> are very similar to australian and u._s. Laws so forced confessions and torture is not allowed according to the law. You know everyone has a right to attorney in afghan law. Everyone has has the right to confrontation and afghan law. You know there's a lot of similarities with the law of afghanistan as the laws are in the west. He should never been in court without a defense attorney. That is something that he is entitled to legally as an as a defendant. So how did you then decide to actually become a lawyer operating on your own with your own shingle angle in kabul rather than being part of this program to capacity build yeah yeah i mean i think a real turning learning point for me was after the court hearing that i wanted to go to prisons and so i went to paula charkhi prison which is located in kabul and it's the largest prison in afghanistan. It's nicknamed the prison of death and it was a prisoner built in the nineteen seventies by the russians and it's the prison of death because so many people have died there while i'm on this tour and i go on this tour again as the first lord foreign laura to do this. You know i'm just sort of seeing how prisons are there to talk to inmates to understand how the the legal system is and so i'm going on this tour and we get to the last block. Poli charkhi has about fifteen different blocks in about ten or twelve off different buildings and i'm in this last block in while i'm there i meet these two men bevin cambone anthony malone bevan campbell's south african anthony malone is british both former british soldiers and they're behind bars either english speaking white guys and so it was just so shocking weird you know intriguing to me of why are these guys here you know up until i had seen them in every even cross my mind that there were foreigners locked up also in afghanistan so you walk in as an english-speaking loyal what are the what are the who when they see you walking into the joint well i mean they get very excited. They're trying to give me letters and just papers of things that they have written down like they're just waiting for someone to come to help them and so i'm in this this sort of this tour with fourteen guys in me and i'm the only lawyer and the other fourteen are sort of americans are sent there to train the prison guards and so they're trying to push these papers to me you know through the doors. I'm like no no no. I can't take it. I'm not here for that. They're going to defend us. Defend us right right and i'm just like no no no. I'm not here for them. Just here to train. I'm a capacity builder. In some capacity the needed some building tapes under the state's exactly and so they were like no no please take this and i remember bevin serves stopping and and they just seem very very sympathetic to make and so seven kind of looked at me and he said please help us. No one is helping us and so the tour is going. I just kind of took. The letters and i snuck welcome in my backpack because i didn't want other people to know taken them and so <hes> yeah. That's what really was a turning point for me so you also into a women's. The prison and that's where you met a woman called. Irene history plays so irene is a woman from the ivory coast and afghanistan named from the ivory coast in afghanistan strong right and one thing that was interesting is that when i started going to the prison afghanistan because there really weren't any other foreigners or foreign lawyers going i had free access to prison so i was just rock prisoner which is let me come in which was crazy and so i would go to the women's prison just to understand their stories and again. Try to help them where i could and so when i would go to the women's prison irene from the ivory coast her main language was english which he had learned how to speak dari imposture two so she started became my translator within the prisons in so irene was a mother of a two year old daughter who also was imprisoned with her and basically she went to afghanistan stand as part of in australia and construction company and when she got to afghanistan they took her passport and they basically made her into a drug bill and so they had her going going to different parts of the country running drugs so so she got caught obviously and sent to prison for that. How could you help her. One thing about irene issues my first proper case in afghanistan and she was sentenced to twenty years in prison similar circumstances torture no attorney no witnesses no evidence whatever and so i got involved with her case after she had went to the i corps at the appellate court and the supreme court were her sentence was twenty years and so that's the maximum you can get so i thought okay i'm gonna start representing irene and see because i figured i couldn't do any worse you know. She had the worst punishment and so i went went to go talk to the supreme court justices because according to afghan law you can actually go the supreme court twice and so i went to the supreme court i wanted to get sort of the drugs like i wanted to see the drugs because the amount of drugs basically determines how much you can be punished for so no one can find the drugs dugs of course and so i was like well. How do you know number one. I argued the semantics of the case you know. How do you know that that's how much drugs was on her. When you don't even have the evidence that i can even review two way to say that that's how much is on her because maybe she only had a little baggy and that would be two years you you know so argued that semantics and then argued the fact that she was in afghanistan not vacationing she was there working for this construction company and i said you know basically when you're going after like a little fish but you really wanna go after the bigger fish which i would imagine is a construction company because in order for every foreigner to go to afghanistan daniel required to have a visa and with your visa your sponsored by somebody so obviously sponsored her was construction company so i said well you should see who sponsored her and then go and investigate them and then i went and talked to <hes> the u._n. <hes> drugs of sort of mission there and basically their your whole mission is trying to eradicate drugs in afghanistan as much as they can and i also talked to them about you know the fact that this this woman she has a lot of information that might be helpful helpful to your mission so maybe you know if you're able to work with us. Maybe we can work with you and the whole goal is is to reduce her sentence so long story short. I was able to convince convinces supreme court to reduce her said his and they actually let her out by using the afghan legal code right not arguing on international human rights basis but i g- using the afghan afghan legal code their own legal code to actually get iran out. It's remarkable count yeah so so that works so this leads you to actually want to go and visit a thing called the jirga which is one of those local tribal informal tribal law courts. What what did that block when you attended a jirga so basically it's like it's just like core or in your living room basically and so usually there's like two parties that calm and jirgas are part of afghanistan's legal system <hes> have been had been part of afghanistan's legal system longer than the formal system for good quarter mediation is that we must yes similar to that so you have like the greek parties and you have religious elders village leaders that come in preside over and so they serve try to mediate the whatever issue is a hand tricky being there as a foreigner and be as a woman was tricky if you well because i i was sponsored kind of quote unquote by somebody that allowed for me to come to the jirga and so it was probably weird that i was there. I'm sure for them <hes> <hes> but everyone was really cool about and no one made me feel uncomfortable. I was just there again to watch so. I really felt welcome to be honest. I think it was easier for them to treat at you like man in the end. You're evidently not a man but it's just it was easier as a western woman. Let's just treat it like a man in the end. Is that what happened to some degree to some degree. I think into just they know i'm a woman but they think something else. I'm not a man they normal woman but i'm not sort of like an afghan woman you know and i think they i sorta you. Get away with stuff more than i think like i shake afghan men's hands which a lot of women don't do that because it's not culturally acceptable <music> on air online and on the listen mrs conversations with richard fidler on a._b._c. radio. You can subscribe to the conversations podcast to find out more just head to i._b._c._a. Dot net slash conversations so we were talking before oh for about one of the traditional tribal courts a jirga. What's the tone of argument lock in a jirga. These courts have mediation anyway well. Let's jirgas. There's no rule. There's no rules. People are usually very passionate in the way that they argue yelling at each other. You know <hes> just trying to get their point across and so it's it's. There's like noha no-holds-barred. Just make your point and you see that a lot with jerks. Where people just you know. Sometimes they end up fighting. I mean i've seen jirgas where people physically taught but yeah. It's really interesting. You used to making your case that way telling other people to sit down and shut up so you can make your point. No no oh you get in trouble for that in the u._s. That's the same here too so is there a sense and this doesn't allow sort of the emotions of the case to play itself out before people arrive. A decision is the point to that process. I mean definitely you definitely see people. Being i think sometimes in the jirga i've seen it's almost like whoever's the most most emotional wins and so you get people that sort of catch onto that so everyone tries be super emotional about the the issue at hand <hes> and ultimately mm-hmm it louis. It's up to the village. Elders religious leaders to decide what is the decision of the jirga. You ended up defending an australian robert langdon who had been a security contractor military history australian military and was contracted by a very dodgy attendant security company while while he was over there in afghanistan career but about historian while he was sent to prison right well robert langdon from adelaide and actually he was like you said a former military guy <hes> he he was working for a u._s. Based private security contracting company and basically what their job was is to defend and to provide security for for the different convoys of trucks and whatnot that were being sent around the country to deliver mail to the various <hes> international military bases aces and so as part of that one night there was a twenty car military convoy and basically you want these convoys to be large because if anything happens happens then you want enough people there to frankly fight and so this convoy was travelling to the southern part of afghanistan from kabul and about an hour <music> out of kabul the the convoy with stop unexpectedly so now it's about midnight and usually with these convoys you want them to go at night because because during the day or in the early hours that's when insurgents sort of wake up and you really wanted to keep moving to definitely keep moving and so he's usually there's no street streetlights you know when you're in the rule which is dark and scary and so while this convoy was stopped one of the afghans on the convoy one of the convoy the stop he really didn't give from a reason for it and so they're only two other america's are on the convoy and so they kept asking. Why are we stopped. He wouldn't give an answer but what he would do is he would take he got his gun and brandish it in people's faces and so these guys were they were worried and so they radio radio back to kabul basically said you know our convoys stopped kareem cream. That's the guy's name won't let us go so we need someone to come here and help us out so rob. Was that person that they wanted to come to to join them at the convoy to help them out to understand. Why is korean stopping this convoy so rob shows up when he sees a convoy he approaches cream and says war we stopped. We need to keep going cream puts. His it's an honor rob rob pulls his gun and shoots and kills kareem once that happened. They then took cranes body. They put it on the back. Ah one of the trucks in the convoy and they're sort of putting mail covering out his body over with male and discovered that under all the smell was a lot of heroin nine korean was running in heroin smuggling operation than is part of this convoy this mile convoy within i think so and while they were also stopped there are about ten afghan a guy that just showed about the blue so i believe what happened is cream will stop in the convoy in these guys are supposed to meet them to rob it but they were late so he'd been found guilty of murder then of an afghan citizen and was in prison and how long have you been languishing dave when i met him he had been imprisoned for over a a year at that point in time and he's the only foreigner that's been convicted of murder and sentenced to death so robert lane was actually sentenced to death in three courts in afghanistan so could you will be able to help him. In that situation i was i mean i represented robert. After he went to the supreme in court when he was sentenced to death and basically based on australians australia's great relationship with afghanistan and the politicking that went around with that his sentence was actually converted to twenty years in prison which is essentially what afghanistan considers a death sentence a life in prison sentence and so when i started representing rob <hes> one thing again wanting to use afghan laws that i wanted to do is on many islamic holidays the president of afghanistan n._y. Issue decrees to forgive people for certain amount of their sentences but these are things you have to apply for which if you don't know then you don't qualify so long story short i was applying for those and i was able to get rob sentence reduced to where he had like five years left on his prison sentence so then once that happened then i went to then president karzai and i asked for a pardon on his behalf you run into the president's office and this was that's all that easy to do even for high-powered capacity-building yourself kimberly to make you to fight you spurs into the into the presidential through powells. Yeah i mean it's it's just when you're in it. You just don't think about each. I'm just kind of like doing my thing and so yes pretty amazing that i was allowed to even ask ask for a part in to present you know the president of afghanistan. That's huge to be will be in that situation. President ghani cars. I actually agreed to the pardon pardon but then he was then there was election and president ghani came and so he never actually gave rob that part when when the current president afghanistan prison gone johnny got into office i met with his people and basically they said that rob couldn't get a pardon because there was not any law that allowed for him to receive a pardon. Pardon which i disagreed with but you know i can. I say i'm asking for a pardon you either give or not give it and so the presidential palace basically said in order for rob to qualify we have to make sure that he qualifies for a part in an order make sure he qualifies for apart we need to create new legislation that and then pass it through the two parlementary houses in afghanistan that would even allow him to even consider a pardon and so the presidential palace and i we started working legislation and ultimately <hes> one thing they wanted is a legislation that says that if a if a foreigner is <hes> in afghanistan and is a country which afghanistan has good relationship with the afghan government can choose to extradite that person back to their country of origin and that was the lawyer was able to get him freed from prison and eventually well kind of yes it was because once we got the extra addition ultimately means if you're facing a charge in your home country. Rob wasn't facing any charges in australia and so i said well we can't use extradition. It has to be released and so they were saying no extradition. Does me release slow. I said fine okay so we'll redefine extradition afghanistan so three redefine extradition to mean release in afghanistan so so we got the law we made the law it was passed by two houses of parliament and then we took that law back to ghani we said well now. Does you qualify for a pardon and so got it did agree and then he gave a presidential pardon so exactly so he's releasing east back into strider. He's he's he's free. He's phrase process during during in his case he hadn't had a translator in court. He didn't know what was going on. You've been subject to all kinds of things you your approach that you say you describe yourself in this courtroom situations as a litigator not a human rights lawyer. Just tell me what the difference is in well. I mean i'm a litigated like you said and basically what i i do. Is i argue the law. Wherever at so in afghanistan i don't argue international conventions like you said i argue afghan law and argue islamic law because islamic make republic of afghanistan quote the koran in court yes and you do yes wow and does that work had been instrumental in changing minds courtroom quoting the prophet mohammad hamadan while you're in court well according the krahn definitely has been instrumental in representing clients and frankly that's what you should do as a lawyer you know because it is that's part of the legal system in afghanistan and so creating from the holy koran using quoting from afghan laws. I very rarely bring up the international conventions because frankly glad i'm not there to be you know human rights lecturer. I'm there to win a case. I'm there to litigated on behalf of my clients and so i use the tools that are available to me to represent my clients and the best way possible and those are the laws within the jurisdictions you founder provision in afghan law would allow foreign person yourself to represent f f gani people and so you represented a girl a sixteen year old girl called ghana's to me her story and how she had been found fallen foul of the law in afghanistan. Yeah we'll was <hes> a teenager who basically was raped by her cousin and as result became pregnant by her cousin <hes> goumas once she was raped and i mean like he attacked her held her down. You know it was a you know a rate and so google knows was feeling sick. She understand why so her mother and her went to the doctors to see what was wrong with her and she went to the doctor. She discovered that she was pregnant. The doctors actors are the ones. Even though there's is patient client confidentiality patient doctor confidentiality the doctors are the ones that actually went to the police untold on her and as a result of that. She was arrested for adultery told on her for she's the victim in this crime. How can she be charged for adultery when she was right. What how does that work well. I mean another part of the afghan legal system that we had that i deal with is is a cultural law and culturally not at that point in time it was acceptable for women to be charged with adultery even if they were victims of rate so so it's like forced wants to daltry in other words yes exactly i mean adult. I've met people afghanistan who went to prison for adultery by being in a room alone own with someone of the opposite sex that they aren't touching. It's just being sometimes people have gone to prison for that. Just being in a room alone no touching everyone fully fully clothed charged with adultery so this is where you come up with a real problem because you're arguing with enough can lower under afghan law. She was guilty of adultery under and when i met her in the first court she hadn't afghan lawyer so she was given twelve years in prison and basically the judges are saying well. If you marry your guy mary the attacker then you might get free and so at this point in time she had already given birth to her daughter in prison. How did you approach these guys thing well. I approached the case by again using the law so i actually represented goal now's before she went to the supreme court and my argument was is that in the holy koran <hes> there's a certain chapter in verse that says that a person in order to find someone guilty of adultery. You need four eyewitnesses so i said before i witnesses. There's never four eye witnesses and of course the state. The state prosecutors can produce for eye witnesses also according to afghan law the way that adultery is described it. It means it's. It's basically if you're raped forcefully. That's not adultery. That's not supposed to be adultery so according to afghan law adultery is if it's consensual sex and so oh she didn't concede to that sex and so i- argued that as well so we want to scream court they agreed with me to certain point and they ended up giving her three years prison she had done two and a half years at that point in time and said that she doesn't have to marry her attacker. So then the case became moot. We're basically i wanted to apply for a pardon for goule nose to the president and you know i i. This was the first pardon i'd ever written in my life school nauseous so i didn't know really how to write it. But of course i made my legal arguments. I thought it'd be a good idea to have letters from family and friends to support her. Pardon pardon application but unfortunately go nasa's family wanted to killing wanted to kill her for having the audacity to be raped and so they weren't supporting her and and so ultimately i put on a petition online just thought okay. I'll get a couple hundred signatures and i can add this the part application from different people will will ended up that we got over six thousand signatures and so we were able to add a petition with the signatures and the part application and then give that to the president firm to decide whether or not he was going to give her a part he did give her a part in. She became the first woman to give a pocket receive apart for moral crimes case in afghanistan which was great. She forgiven the crime or exonerated from it. She was exonerated so what happened to within. Well you know basically from matt point. She then was putting a women's shelter and the women's shelter they were very <hes>. I don't think they're a great to her. Frankly and the women's shelter proved to be more of a prison and then the prison to which she had her daughter were in for the last two and a half years and so the afghan ministry of women's affairs and and the women at the shelter were reaching out to the perpetrator and they were trying to encourage him to marry her also on the flip side of that they were talking and i didn't know they they were doing this on the flip side of that they were talking to goule knows and they were saying to her. Oh he loves you. He wants to marry you now. What i was working on is i had a lot of countries that we're sort of approaching me to give offer asylum for gould's to go which was great so she had probably about ten countries that she could went to but goule gnaws didn't wanna go right away way. She wanted to repair the relationship with her family because she had two brothers and her mother and she still felt like you know she wanted to repair that relationship so adviser i i said okay. These offers were not on the table forever and so long story short she was able to repair that relationship with her family but she didn't want to go to a foreign in country and even though i wanted her to go to a foreign country it wasn't for me to decide. It was for her to decide so she would ask me. What do you think i should go and i'd give her the pros and cons to each country because that was what my job was and so google gnaws automatically decided that her being an uneducated afghan woman single oh mother teenager it would be very difficult for her to be in a new country alone isolated with her daughter so i understood where she was coming from with that meanwhile while they were talking to the perpetrator <hes> basically they essentially forced her to marry him and she ended up marrying the guy that raped her. Uh doesn't do you any good in these cases to sort of raise your fist and coordinated this this just this monstrous injustice just cries out to the heavens do you do you do that or is there. Any point there's no point is strictly speaking to a legal code and islamic tradition well. I definitely try to be very passionate and court and i definitely flee. Do i'll say maybe not like that but i'll say things to that effect but with the backing of the laws like i'm not there to be served this moral moral arbitrator of the law who's not muslim who's right yeah. I'm there to argue my case and use the law in the best possible for my clients but i definitely my opinion obviously comes into play <hes> and with gounod's in particular you know of course i hated the fact that she married her attacker but ultimately ultimately you know. I'm there to represent her in court on there as her lawyer aymer lawyer. I'm not her life coach and ultimately how she chooses ah to live her life. That's on her another case. You represented was a little girl. Little knock knock who her father it'd been family was in a refugee camp and her father disparate hitting could debt and in order to pay the debts. The other family insisted that this little girl be handed over as abroad to someone in that family and what she was a child six years old at the time had. How are you able to help her. Well basically <hes> they had a jirga where they decided that you know she should marry this other guy and the twenty one year old neighbor. Her father owed a two thousand five hundred dollar debt to the neighbor and he was trying to take care of his family. <hes> nog mus father had eight kids. His wife was very sick. He couldn't find a job so he had all these pressures and living there refugee camp yeah because the winter was so terrible. Actually one of his son died while he's at this refugee. Camps fluids very desperate and so when the neighbor asks for his money back the guided. Why did you know taj mohammed naguib. Father just did not have it so naga father and the neighbor decided to have a jerk and the jirga they decided the best way to satisfy the debt is if not were forced to marry the neighbors twenty one year old son and so <hes> there are a lot of people that sort of reached out to me wanting not me to help and you know they had money and they wanted to give it to the neighbors of naga. Guba could go back home but i said it's not that simple. You know it's not you can't just throw money at a problem problem. It's fixed when needs to happen is because there is a decision you may not agree with that decision but a decision has been made so in order to override that decision which you i need to have as a second jirga serve a jirga of appeals and i said and if and you need village elders religious leaders you need the neighbor to come the neighbor's son and that must father to all agree to one have the jirga to appeal the decision and if i'm going to be a part of this process then they're all going to have to agree that. I'm the the judge of this jerk. You're going to be the presiding judge of an afghani jirga wow that he agreed to that tape. Did they did agree to that. That's amazing. That's amazing as a foreigner. You've been asked to do that and as a woman to in a very mild council you're sitting presiding over there. So how did that unfold that gig yeah. It was really interesting you know and i was so happy to be a part of that and that was really you know i was. I gotta give the guy's credit that they allowed allowed me to be part of this system and also be in charge and so ultimately with the jirga <hes> the debt was satisfied. The engagement was terminated so she you didn't have to marry the guy and also i added some things you know. Basically we wrote a contract where they all agree that all their daughters are according totally krahn and according to afghan law they're the ones that are to choose when they who and when they want to marry somebody and also the agree that all their daughters had the right to education according afghan law so i they all signed on off on it freely we registered it so if any them break the contract and they can be criminally liable for it and and nagwa was allowed to go home that was terminated and yeah were you able to set a legal precedent with that. Does that not work in the informal giga system. Well i mean i'm afghanistan is a is a civil law system and so basically there isn't precedent but i definitely do try to promote good precedent so down the trek. If there's another the jason just looking at the motley case whatever we can call up on this appreciative right but see you have to be careful with president in afghanistan because for every one good decision decision. There's like ten bad decisions so you don't really want to play that game of oh. You guys should adopt precedent because it will affect more people negatively. I think kimberly you say you're more about too much. Justice but justice can explain the difference well to me. What justness is is using the laws to protect your because really the role of laws is protect people so i work within the confines of the laws and what is available to me as a legal practitioner tichenor in as a lawyer justice has no bounds you know it can go beyond the boundaries of the law or something caused me about it and ah outside of ourselves not luther king uses. The arc of the universe is long but had bins towards justice that kind of thing but that's multiple exactly. It's like poetry justices poetry. It's like the two theory you know it. Doesn't i don't know if it really exists in every situation frankly and i think it's a nice idea yeah but it's not a legal reality to me in a lot of ways because if you're a victim of a crime for instance if your shot right and i i'm sorry i'm american cyber shooting thing. If you're shot you know as a victim you want to be made whole again and you want to be made whole as possibly as you can before for you were shot but at the end of the day you're always going to suffer that pain from that being a victim so okay fine you get the guy in prison for ten years years but is that really justice you some people. They want revenge. They want that person to be shot to them. That would be justice and i don't argue for that. That's not within thin sort of what my sphere of influence is of what how i can use the law. I don't know it seems to me. You're doing the real work of the world with stuff. I mean it's one thing grand speech about the beauty of human rights and justice but what you're doing it seems to me is is getting making at terrible awful situation not so bad right. That's you know about perfect happy endings. That's that's the real work of the world in a way i think so and i want what the work that i do. I wanted to transcend transcend to different people like i want people to see how m- using the laws within their jurisdictions to help to protect not only my clients but to protect them and so now i do cases all over over the world in addition to afghanistan. We're sitting here in a straight really odd question. Are you missing afghanistan right now. You get homesick for kabul i i do. I do kind of misconduct do afghanistan you know and and it's interesting because i was sent there to be this capacity builder but i really think because because i really feel like afghanistan has capac- built me and that would not have been made possible if i didn't have the help of so many afghans ahead my back you know before before i want afghanistan. I didn't know any australians and now look at me. I'm in sydney. It's you know i i feel like i met the world in afghanistan and i'll always be thankful for that. <music> afghanistan will always be a home to me in some way shape or form more not only you in city. You're about to get for swimming bundy window. Which is hot ads and you get. You get huge respect. That is well. I well. I think you're you're using and i think this is an extraordinary story. There's plenty of the stories that are in this in your in your book. We didn't even have time to get today. It's one of those incredible incredible things. That made me rethink a lot about the much of what i think. I knew what i knew about the justice system. It's been such a pleasure speaking with you can blame thank you so much. Thank you podcast broadcast and online. You're listening to conversations with richard fidler on a._b._c. see radio. He more conversations anytime on the a._b._c. Listen up or go to a._b._c. dot net dot e._d._u. Slash conversations well there you go. That's kimberly motley in her book is called lawless. A lawyer's unrelenting fight for justice in one of the world's world's most dangerous places armored five. Thanks for listening. You've you've been listening to a podcast of conversations with richard fidler for more conversations interviews. Please go to the website a._b._c. dot net dot e._d._u. Huge slash conversations mm-hmm discover more great a._b._c. Podcasts live radio and exclusives on the a._b._c. Listen app.

afghanistan kabul attorney kimberly motley david president Guillermo afghanistan milwaukee australia united states google afghan afghan america prosecutor nina kareem cream afghan ministry of women david stanley luther king
Climate Crisis

CONFLICTED

55:47 min | 6 months ago

Climate Crisis

"Hi Everyone Thomas Small here. I'm coming to you from deep undercover literally. I'm sitting on my bed with the covers pulled over my head trying my best to recreate the conditions of a recording studio. You see the episode. You're about to hear was recorded before lockdown before we kick it off. Ayman I have a favor to ask as we come to the end of season two. We're doing a survey to find out what you dear listeners. Enjoy about the show what you want more of and where we can improve. The survey will only take about five to ten minutes to complete. And let's face it. You're at home twiddling your thumbs waiting for this global pandemic to end. So why not? Just click on the link in the show notes below or go to bit dot L. Y. Slash conflicted Q. That's all lower case. Bit Dot L. Y. Slash conflicted Q. And as a thank you anyone who completes the survey will be in with a chance of winning. A copy of Ayman's book nine lives my time as mix is top spy inside al-Qaeda now on with the show. Welcome to the last episode of this season of conflicted. I am Thomas Small and of course. Amandine is here with me. Hi Hi how are you doing today? Don't say you're still alive. People are getting sick of that. I noticed that there's more gray hair in your beard is that is that The toll of being a jihadist or the toll of being a father of two young children. I can tell you. I've been through many wars and I can tell you nothing. Prepares you to Raising children. Children is worse than actually going to war. All right. So so far we have been on a long journey of tracking the rise and demise potentially the demise of America's new world order in the last episode. We turned our attention to how the collapse of the American economy or near collapse of the American economy. In two thousand eight rippled around the Globe and today to conclude the season. How is the history of the environmental movement connected to the history and politics of the New World Order? And what does the global climate crisis mean to the billions of people who don't live in what we call the Western world intergovernmental panel on Climate. Change says remotely dozen years land in Kenton. Maximum Amount Cam. Can I think what is it staying more than once through? So we've been talking about the end of the new world order the end of liberal democracy the end of capitalism but with the climate crisis. Are we actually witnessing the end of the world itself? This is potentially amen not disconnected to the question of the success of global capitalism? Which along with it's arguable. Benefits has also or so. The scientist tell us had a pretty huge negative impact on the environment. Now before we get into this. I want to say that this is a topic that many people today feel really passionately about. And I'm going to be honest. I don't always know what to think about it because there's so much conflicting information out there not so much about the problem itself about which the sciences pretty settled but about the best solution which is where of course science takes a backseat to politics. People are truly conflicted so Ayman we've discussed this issue one hundred times and some of your views might make people think you're a climate change. Denier are you know definitely not? I'm not a climate change denier. I am more-or-less skeptic about the solutions that some quarters are putting forward so I am some basically who believe while. I'm not a scientist. I believe that the total disruption of human economic activity all across the globe is not the answer right. Okay good so you're not a climate change denier. We will discuss later. Your views about the more radical suggestions at some voices have about how to deal with the crisis. But before we get there. I just think it's good to offer a brief history of the environmental movement and the first thing to point out that movement is actually very old. Its roots lie in the nineteenth century. The Romantic movement really which coincided with the industrial revolution poets and philosophers began to grow uneasy about the rising pollution that resulted from industrialization not to mention the social and spiritual dislocations that followed legislation in Britain and elsewhere from the Victorian period onward primarily over air pollution was passed plus conservation. Societies were founded all across the world in nineteen sixty. Two Rachel. Carson's hugely influential book silent. Spring kicked off the modern environmental movement. And the first Earth Day was celebrated in nineteen seventy so the movement has really deep roots. But it was really establishment of the UN's intergovernmental panel on climate change in nineteen eighty eight followed by the first U. N. Earth Summit held in Rio de Janeiro in Nineteen ninety-two where global action on climate change began the Rio Summit was actually expressly a post. Cold War effort to bring countries together. They can discuss how to cooperate on development issues which involved what was then called Sustainability Sustainable Development. The country's wanted to make sure that prosperity rose but they were concerned that with rising prosperity would be an increasing environmental degradation. This all eventually resulted in the Kyoto. Protocol of Nineteen ninety-seven which has struggled to be ratified by the countries of the world. To put it lightly especially United States has been an outlier. They have not signed the Kyoto Protocol. This has all led in recent years to lots of activists being fed up with what they consider to be global action on a pressing problem and the growing popularity of green political parties. And what's called the green new deal and other such policy proposals? So that's the history and we can see that really. The era of the new world order which has seen this explosion of capitalism and economic growth everywhere has been shadowed all along by a growing concern that it is not sustainable in the long run and that the earth is suffering as a result of all our prosperity now before we focus on the politics of climate change in the West I. I'd like to talk about the Middle East ultimately listeners. Come to you Ayman Matt here about the Middle East. So how has the climate crisis and the facts around the Climate Crisis Benefactor and everything that conflicted has been discussing over the last two seasons? Well don't forget it in a wean. Them deletes are the source or the largest source of the solution. Because of the oil that you're pumping oil and gas. So basically we've been pumping oil now for almost one hundred years to the rest of the world. In basically the two thirds of the Walled energy exports basically. You know coming from the Middle East of course so if you look at Saudi Arabia Kuwait. Uae Iraq Iran Libya the production levels. Basically are just tremendous so of course we are the produces but we are not necessarily the polluters. Well do consume a lot of petroleum yourselves. But of course it is. It's the West and more recently China and India and India. Yes so Y- the source is the Middle East but then from that source of the pollution is created everywhere so when I talk to people whether it is in Saudi Arabia or Iraq or add on or Yemen or whatever basically they say look in the world is angry about OPEC being one of the biggest polluters in the world because OPEC the Organization for Petroleum Producing Global Petroleum Cartel. Really exactly to the point where. There were even environmentalists. Who were shouting that OPEC a terrorist organization because get another terrorist organization from the Middle East? Because you know it should have been disbanded and asset sees all of that because unfortunately with with the environment the environmental message from the West that is actually seeping through to the people in the Middle East is extremely negative and they feel that. Basically that the environmentalists hostile towards the Middle East. Because of so many. What I call intersection Nalitzis off causes. That are dumping more and more of the world's problems on the Middle East well if rising carbon dioxide is seen as the major problem than petroleum is the source of that problem but some of the Middle East will say well. Excuse me. We're living in a basically nomadic lives or semi urban lives in agricultural or pastoral or basically having lifestyle going around until you guys came discovered the juice beneath our feet. And you decide to extract. Give us the money. Well let's not talk about the pollution itself I wanNA talk about the effects of this pollution ee climate change and how climate change has influenced the things. We've been talking about on conflicted. I mean it's absolutely true that in the first decade of the twenty first century there was widespread drought in countries like Syria and Yemen. These countries that became hot spots for the Arab Spring and of course civil war has climate change played a role in that. Of course there is no question. Basically that as the climate changes drastically you start to have areas pockets. Where drought follows and crops fail of course not entirely the environment's fault but also in the management of of the country is basically Yemen. Insignia are poorly managed as countries because of the drought serious specifically a huge influx of rural residents moved into the cities so there was a burgeoning population explosion in the cities That weren't enough jobs for these people which created the unrest that to some extent led to the Arab spring and the civil war there exactly and actually by pushing moral moral in all people into the urban centers they. These became the foot soldiers. Eight a further rebellion in that followed in Syria and also for the civil war that followed in Yemen Urban population of Siri increased by fifty percent in a decade percent up to the civil war exactly because of the fact that the crops were failing because of rising temperature as well as less water rainfall the same thing happened in Yemen and Lebanon exam. Lebanon was affected. Also Lebanon now is becoming more and more a not economy drugs drugs. Yes do you know why because with water becoming more and more scarce so what would you rather are basically a plant because if you spend so much water you might as well plan something that actually have more intrinsic value in like you know? WanNa marijuana and cocaine opium then into basically tomatoes potatoes on peaches. You can maximize your profit and the same thing in Yemen. They also turn to drugs instead of coffee especially cut this very famous. Yemeni drug where you see Yemenis or with a big sort of bulb. Isn't it constantly stoned? Exactly so what happened is eight affected? The populations became mortal more lazy. Drug addict say no. They'd be becoming more. And more in reliant on the fact that in this is a new source of income but it is either criminal or semi-criminal. And it's not sustainable. So actually the shortage of water and the rising temperature caused both Yemen and Syria in not in a partially to become failed states and caused Lebanon to become a narco economy in an extent the isis phenomenon. Also involved water. It's not often talked about but one of the things that Isis managed to get a hold of. During their conquest of much of Syria Iraq were several dams up the Tigris and Euphrates River which you know have seen in the last couple of decades a precipitous drop in water level. So water was involved in the in the struggle with Isis. As well indeed in fact if you go back to the Yemen episode in the first season we talk about the fact that the entire Yemen war from the Saudi perspective in was based mostly on the fact that it is about what our security for Saudi Arabia. And that's why for example if you look at Countries like Oman. Oman is going to run out of oil in just twenty years or less. And what will they do an already? Basically they are enlisting the help of Saudi and Kuwaiti companies. That specializing in building. And this is the new innovation in building solar power plants on the sea that also does water desalination water desalination is so important throughout the peninsula. I mean I think something like fifty percent of Saudi drinking water comes from From design life percent ninety-five percent Saudi Arabia alone produce one third of the entire world output off desalinated water and the UAE produce one fifth. So the reality is that the entire peninsula produced almost a no sixty percent of the entire global consumption of dissent daughter because there is that entire big peninsula the size of India not a single river or lake so in the water sources are very scarce and therefore any drastic change in the environment could have negative effects? Some other positive talk about later but the negative effect is the scarcity afford rainfall. So here's the problem for Oman. Which is in. There will be the first oil-rich Arab country. Toronto volume in the near future. Twenty is nothing basically we will see it in our own lifetimes that in less than twenty years the last oil tanker leaving Amman in no to export oil we will see it waving it away with tears on their face. What does the future so from? Now they started using solar power to desalinate water solar power to run desalination plants but those plants require huge amounts of energy and solar power power them. Yes if you have enough concentration if you produce roughly between five hundred and six hundred megawatts of power per day. Then that's it you have it. I'm glad you brought up the subject of solar energy because Green Energy in general as it increases in it sophistication and And as the West especially Begins to rely more and more upon it has an economic effect on on the Middle East because as demand for oil and gas decreases in the West that will affect the economies of a country say like Saudi Arabia. Are they aware of this? What are they doing to to To prepare for this. Why do you think Saudi Arabia is frantically trying to diversify their economy as soon as possible by relying on the religious tourism and expanding it from basically sixteen billion dollars per year? Sixty three billion dollars per year. In Twenty thirty. Why do you think basically they are trying to a rely? More on extraction of other minerals like gold. Silver uranium phosphate bauxite and other things. Why do you think basically they want to build these tourism cities like Amada on the Red Sea and other places and using their cultural sites and opening the Visa System. So anyone come visit. Saudi Arabia do things that are doing it because basically they know that there will be a time when ships will sail away with the last bit of oil will become not not valuable enough. Actually in people telling needs oil will not become valuable enough and say basically that is still far away in the future because still there are two modes of transportation that cannot be powered by electricity yet. Maybe by natural gas but not by electricity not it which are those Airplanes commercial airplanes and commercial ships so commercial shipping in there is no engine unless if you place nuclear powered engines on the big ships which is most likely impossible to do without like for thousands of tankers and In massive containership. I can imagine your old friends and Al Qaeda would love to get their hands on huge tanker with a nuclear bomb on security has so you will still have to rely on diesel engines and also encouraging engines for the aircraft's for generations to come because no amount of electrical batteries can actually power a seven triple seven in a plane to fly from. London. Let's say to New York possible so oil will remain in demand for the time being. Yes but the question is what other parts of the economy that we can basically remove the fossil fuel from so we're talking about power generating so we can use solar. We can use wind while Saudi Arabia has been investing tremendously in green energy itself actually especially solar power. I believe they're building right now. The largest solar farm in the world. Yes because why we have an area in Saudi Arabia called the Empty Quarter has empty quarter. Basically is nothing but the empty EST innermost desert and inhospitable desert and the waller but you invoke the Empty Quarter and it gives me all sorts of romantic ideas wilfred walking across the Empty Quarter to the mountains of Oman. Oh Gosh those were the day exactly for the Listener Wilfred or the last of the Great British explorers In who's fantastic book Arabian Sands? I really recommend this book Arabian Sands. He describes his journey across the Empty Quarter to Oman. And it's it's just a magnificent book. I totally agree funny enough. You've mentioned this just now as we speak. Saudi Arabia Norman. Finishing in the last touch is on the road that actually track the singer Johnny from the Empty Quarter basically to Amman. So you can take it and you can basically Boskin the beauty of the Empty Quarter. Oh I hope you can. Maybe take that journey together. We will do. I have a current value in a boxer so basically we can go and take it and do it. So I'm going to hold you to that. So so basically in the reality is that the Empty Quarter have huge amount of inner basically sunshine throughout the year. In the rainfall there basically is extremely negligible and cloud cover is almost non existent. So what they do basically is that the you know the the new technology with the solar farm some of them basically make them for one hundred percent more efficient in terms of production so Saudi Arabia basically could do two things basically wind farms for the night because at night the wind pick up in the desert and in the day the sun is shining so basically you have two sources that are almost complementing each other throughout and once you had the faulk dot the battery technology. Thanks to the efforts of people like Elon. Musk on his teams into the battery technology. If it become more and more efficient than whatever is produced during the day that has an accent come bestowed so it can be utilized during the night from the solar power also. Saudi Arabia controversially is investing in between seventeen to eighteen What they call mini nuclear reactors mini nuclear reactors. Why again it's the water security issue here because you said basically that solar can produce in solar power in intense production can desalinated water. The problem with water desalination is that it requires intense source of power so while five hundred megawatt or even in one go out can produce enough desalinated water for two hundred thousand three hundred thousand people. So it's good for a Man. It's gone power province with it and give enough drinking water for a province. The problem here is in Saudi Arabia the population in twenty thirty. We'll hit forty or forty five million. So what you need. As intense source of energy that is continuous in order to generate that also the Saudis and. This is not in the public domain. But this is ideas. Basically being floated by ministers and deputy ministers. And I've heard one from a deputy minister there. They are toying with the idea that the nuclear energy output could actually desalinated so much water that you can basically pump an entire river into the interior of Saudi Arabia to change the climate. Well this sounds like fantasy. This sounds like something out of Dune or something like that but funny enough if you look at the numbers and if you look at basically the energy output from a nuclear reactor on the Red Sea and how it could basically pump water in huge quantities into the interior of Saudi Arabia building aces in the desert. That can actually fundamentally changed the environment and find the vacation. Then you see basically that we can fight climate change but in the very entrepreneurial very radical. We'll maybe the Arabian Peninsula will become heavily forested before I die. Wouldn't that be amazing? That's what the Prophet Muhammad himself said. Prophet Mohammad said that he said that the end of days won't come until the land of Arabia become once again lands of Meadows and Green Hills and rivers another prophecy always prophecies with you. Ayman what can I say I mean I? I grew up in Saudi Arabia. And then I don't cry but prophecies there but in order to convince the Arab world which is very climate skeptic by the way to convince out of all that actually it is in their interest in oh to look for greener sources of energy even including nuclear and I know is controversial but remember in the Western world. There is abundance of water in that Arabian Peninsula. There's India there is no water. So nuclear as the safest and the greenest guaranteed source of power. They could have in order to make sure they have enough water. Otherwise if water isn't available in quantities enough for the population to drink wars and you know ugly ugly situation with mass destabilization exactly so the Saudis and other Middle Eastern states are are pursuing policies in response to climate change. What about more widely so what to say the high level people outside of the Middle East but not in the West so China India etc. What what sort of things are they telling you about the climate crisis? What is their attitude in? General towards climate change the problem with India is that they in India and China. They are gripped by this idea of a conspiracy theory that in no the environmental movement is nothing basically bought a ploy by the West in order to derail their economic progress there. That's what I hear this and I hear also from other Indian entrepreneurs in Dubai whenever I meet them that well the environmental issue. They basically strangle our economies by saying. Well let's all the environmentally. You have to reduce your carbon footprint. But the problem here. Is that when you talk? Especially Indians they say basically that on a government level on a central government level on New Delhi level. The initiatives are just really bureaucratic. Talk the real initiatives taken by small towns villages and individuals who are installing solar panel on the rooftops even sometime in shantytowns installed in not because it is environmentally friendly but it is book it friendly so it turns out basically that in no some of the charities that donate solar panels to these villages and towns. Actually doing the right thing but you know. Here's the problem. Is that eight really a drop in the ocean in a unique to have a massive production of solar panels in India as well as in China and other places in order to convince them that this is economically viable and the government can. Do I want to return to what you were saying? How Indians and others. They have this Conspiracy Theory about the The climate crisis and politics of the climate crisis being exploited by the West to undercut eastern prosperity and development. Because it I mean. I'm not saying that it's right. But geopolitically the politics of climate change have been taking an interesting turn of late for example you know it is Western leaders and Western people in general who care most passionately about climate change and it might be possible to spy within that concern. Something like cynical power politics going. On for example the president of France Mackerel and other leaders of of you know what let's face it. These are relatively speaking shrinking powers at the moment France and Britain and even the United States relatively speaking shrinking powers. The president of France threatened to spike a major EU trade deal with Brazil unless Brazil put an end to rainforest clearance and some analysts are beginning to wonder so just as the threat of the Soviet Union used to be invoked to unite the West around ideas of human rights as a means of projecting in shoring up their global power in the twentieth century. The question is is the climate crisis now being invoked by primarily western powers to do something like the same thing if the West can rally around climate crisis can they force the eastern world to adopt policies that might protect Western power. Thus what I hear in places like Beijing in places like Delhi and Bombay Mumbai as I call it now and in places luckily all done by another hobby an in your analysis. Is there some reason to worry about this? They say that the way they're doing it. You know which is do it now impose taxes like this. We will impose taxes on carbon. We will impose taxes and plastic. We will do this that I mean they believe basically that this is all designed in order to Assert Western hegemony. That is the problem. Here is that you know for many of them. And especially when you talk to policymakers in the east whether from China India Indonesia Malaysia or in the Middle East itself there will tell you basically that the problem here is that the message that is coming from the West as rather confused and aggressive at the same time. It's like we're GONNA die but we look around and we don't see that the changes are so drastic that we're GONNA die in no so the world will end but we don't see around us. We're not seeing anything in the horizon approaching slowly that basically with with the word doom written in cloud formation. So we don't see it so you know but nonetheless they are doing it in a way to try to push us around to adopt certain economic and regulatory standards and of course basically we have to push back because what they say. We already are taking measures to reduce our dependence on fossil fuel not because of the climate change but because fossil fuels will run out eventually. So we need to start from now so as an economic imperative the first thing the second thing is a health imperative in China in particular in they are in a hurry actually to replace many of their coal power stations which they already building still but there are trying to replace them especially around the big cities with either natural gas solar wind on nuclear. This is to protect people's health. Exactly air pollution is a huge problem in that part of the world. I mean every time I go to Beijing and I go to Beijing a lot every year. Not for the BUSMAN's just sign a disclaimer because of the virus but But every time in my boudoir I have to do with the fact that every time I come back in from Beijing I suffer for two or three days from nosebleeds from the pollution from the pollution and so pollution is stabbing inside my nose. Basically so of course. That's why in they want to do it. They want to make sure that the skies are clear. This is also what they're trying to do in New Delhi also so the pollution is a health issue. And that's how I think we should be selling this in to the rest of the world. It's an economic issue as well as as it is a health issue while instead of selling it in that way in the West at the moment people who you know are increasingly concerned about About Climate Change They have adopted. Different rhetoric A rhetoric which which I assume and gloom doom and gloom rhetoric. Let's call it and I think that this rhetoric is at the moment particularly associated with this movement extinction rebellion You know the Global Environmentalist Movement which you know depending on your point of view either notorious or inspiring which started actually here in London and I actually can remember first encountering Extinction Rebellion Win in April twenty nineteen. They took over Oxford Circus. A big sort of roundabout in the centre London near where I work And I would come from Oxford Circus Tube station. I saw them there. They'd they sort of camped out in the middle of this huge intersection they directed tents and they created this sort of platform and there was sort of clownish Hijinks going on. It was a very strange rather phantasmagoric scene of on the one hand political activists on the other hand. What sort of hipster entertainers? It was weird and their rhetoric was certainly very very. I would say extreme trying to encourage us all to panic. They were saying the end of the world is Ni- we haven't done anything really to address it. We must start doing so now. Now I'd like to talk about the way extinction. Re rebellion is organized. It's very interesting. There was a quote from the economist it says whereas the occupy movement which as it happens we discussed in the previous episode a similar outfit became bogged down in Cumbersome People's assemblies extinction rebellion has adopted an approach called Hawk recy- Who Lock Rec- claims to spread power across employees by ditching. Traditional management hierarchies in favor of semi autonomous circles in extinction rebellions case this amounts to what are in effect franchises of the main brand which plan and carry out their own protests. Following a loose set of rules set out by the main group. Now when I read that I thought I must ask Ayman because that sounds a little bit like the way. Al Qaeda is managed our extinction rebellion. Just terrorists. Ayman I mean look at the similarities between the two from rhetoric point of view. I'm not talking about action. I'm talking about electric. Both are saying that the world's GonNa end both how prophecies of doom and gloom both believe that their causes writers and anyone basically who deny there. 'cause is basically a monster or so. The problem here is on both of them. Have a defined enemy. My problem is that they believe somehow that the enemy is the human race on in. Oh they use of rhetoric the world is going to end that we will have an environmental catastrophe on biblical proportions. In in twelve years time and that we will all die. And if we don't do anything right now. I don't believe that even even if the entire world decarbonised tonight and we all went to the Stone Age again tonight that it will slow in a basically the climate change in twelve years. If there is a catastrophe that the catastrophe would happen so. It's kind of irrational yes. Al Qaeda and extinction rebellion both think. The world is going to end one difference to to be fair to extinction. Billion IS THAT. They're basing their their prophecy. If you like. However perhaps exaggerated might be on scientific facts unlike al-Qaeda who are being inspired more by religious texts and religious prophecies the thing about a rebellion and other such groups is that though they are responding to a scientific consensus about climate change. They are themselves actually a political group a political activist group which is why they're organization is actually interesting. So if we're going out on a limb here and saying that extinction rebellion at least in its organizational structure is similar to group like Al Qaeda. I want to ask you. What did Jihadists think about climate change? I'm sure this will be baffled. By the fact that Osama bin Laden wrote a letter to Barack Obama asking him to take the environmental crisis seriously in fact it's true Ayman and in that letter Osama bin Laden actually calls on the American people to launch a revolution in the name of the Environmental Crisis Eight. Oh so no one should actually greatest for combating extinction rebellion by look when it comes to extinction billion. I admire what they do. I understand why why they doing it. And it's a great cause it's an causes a noble cause. I don't doubt their intentions. But unfortunately I dug their methods and there is a lot of naivete also their extinction rebellion was founded initially by an organization called Compassionate Revolution. Whose Webpage states that it was birthed in the occupy movement and there are as you say ideological similarities both movements reject capitalism. They both believe that. Capitalism is incompatible with democracy as they understand it and the occupy movement was also explicitly environmentalist at times and extinction rebellion slogan. Is System Change? Not Climate Change. Only Revolution will save us now. So if we're talking about ideologies as. We often do here on conflicted. This is as a political ideology revolutionary. And that's why they're message has been you know the most harmful to the environmental causes. No group that ever advocated for a no combating climate. Change has done more harm to the cause of combating climate. Change like the essential billion because of the panic. They're trying to foment because of the panicking because of the message and the intersection novelty of the message. The problem is the intersection here. Where you have. Vegans Hainault basically uniting with animal rights movements nothing basically with anti capitalist movements united with the environmental movement and basically have them altogether threatening basically the system that sustains the global economy as it is and the problem is basically when you try to sell this to people in India or Africa or the Middle East or China or Southeast Asia or Pakistan. I'm talking about the most. I'm Bangladesh the most populous nations of the world. Do Thurs of the humanity when you try to sell these ideas to them a snot. Just only coming as You know a single issue of the environment is a whole package. You need in order to stop eating fish. You need to stop eating meat. You need to stop hating honey. Even you shouldn't wear leather. You shouldn't eat dairy milk ice cream. Whatever and so basically from Saudi Arabia or someone from in the desert South Africa. Basically we look at you and say okay. It's not green where I am. You know unless you actually make it. Rain Twenty four seven so. I can grow tomatoes and cucumbers. Then I'm GONNA eat the desert animals like camels and goats or whatever that to feed on scarce desert vegetation which is not suitable for human consumption so extinction rebellions. Rhetoric isn't really landing in the developing world but in the West but landing is actually is viewed as a joke but in the West is not viewed as a joke. I mean anecdotally I can just say based on friends of mine who are really passionate about this and extinction rebellions. Message is really landing with them. They are scared. They are panicked and they are changing their lifestyles in response to this. They really are the amount of the amount of people who they no longer buy things from Amazon. They no longer buy new things at all. They go to charity shops more and more they just you know it. It really is a movement. It's almost like a spiritual movement and that's the problem is becoming looking to some extent so that's a negative way of putting it but I actually am often very impressed by especially my younger friends. Who are able to to summon the will from within them to live in a more sustainable way which after all is not a bad thing. I find myself not as able to do so. Yeah but the problem here is. You can't Ino come from an environment like Europe and North America which has lush green abundance of Forza abundance of vegetation and already post industrial exactly and demand that two-thirds of humanity who will have access to none of these basically not abundance of not abundance of vegetation. Not One of you know we're talking here about inner. Three billion people depend on the ocean basically for their livelihoods in terms of food and protein intake. Because you can't go to the coast of Somalia Mozambique Madagascar the Maldives Indonesia Malaysia. All of these places and Tell Them. Stop eating fish to be fair to them. They are mainly lobbying their own governments in their own politicians to implement new and more radical policies but ultimately what they would like is for those politicians to to create a global strategy for combating the climate crisis. Along the lines they wish. And and that would entail the Western World ganging up to some extent on on the rest of the world. Look I have lived a life where I've spent years in four different zones and then I spent two years in the banking sector. I spent years in multiple countries in from the West to the east. And I've been in different jobs from the from the spiritual economic to the semi scientific when I was actually building a chemical weapons so basic so so in a sense you know you you know of over forty s lifetime you accumulate some Inno Delle call basically perspective and the perspective here is this. Karma change is a crisis that I accept. What don't accept Hispanic. So how do I propose to deal with it? Exactly how do you propose to principles that you always apply in business and you apply in your own personal life and you can apply to every situation including governance? The first one is crisis management and the second principle is business continuity. How can these two principles take from business? Helpless addressed the climate crisis. Okay let's say basically that we have a factory that Let's say mix ice cream and suddenly there was a hurricane that affected you know the dairy farm that was actually in supplying the factory. It affected some of the employees. That supply chain has been disrupted. The supply chain has been disrupted. So what you do already. There is a plan. There is a contingency that should supply. Chain be disrupted okay. Do we have enough in the reserves for a day or two or three to keep the factory running. If there are a shortage of employees do have any people basically who can come and fill the capacity now? What about the road to our? Can we take alternative roads in because you need to stay in business even if okay if we have to reduce capacity because basically we are really affected by the catastrophic climate disaster? How do we do with so basically would reduce capacity at ten percent twenty percent thirty percent even a fifty percent but let us actually keep working at fifty percents capacity in order to recover later so this is called crisis management and business continuity so basically the world needs to come together and say climate change is real but in order to establish as much continuity in prosperity we can? We need to manage this crisis. Not Freak out about it and adopt radical revolutionary solutions. Yeah because imagine two scenarios here. Okay let's say basically we are in a concert Some terrorist basically pulled out a knife and starts stabbing others basically. They're in a corner of the concerts. I can that happening. It's happened. Unfortunately so what happened is if the ushers under security manager of the venue is clever. He will announce quickly on the megaphone. That ladies and gentlemen please proceed to the gate. There is an emergency is only an accident. There is nothing to worry about but just proceed to all the emergency exits in order an orderly fashion now. He of course basically it's calming com measure thing. Don't basically disclose the entire information because people panic. If you don't shout attack attack flea lives was going to happen. The stampede will kill in ten times more people than the stabbing incident itself would have killed so this these are the two differences here. Panic kills at the people who are advocating. Well let's say the people who are panicking say look. There is no solution we just need to stop with all of our consumption stop with all of our industry. Stop with all of our resource extraction. We need to stop. Okay if not what what do you? What do you suggest what do you put your faith into save us from what you acknowledges the climate crisis technology. We should put our faith in technology in innovation going forward because just as I was talking to you minutes ago when I said basically that in Saudi Arabia they are actually experimenting with new. Solar Power Technology that is four hundred percent more efficient and if we are seeing that the roads can be built from plastic. Waste an even install solar panels on these roads so actually A static infrastructure. Become more useful if we are looking at carbon capture technology which one blunt one plant alone will replace in a basically the need for forty million threes to suck the carbon out of thin air. Basically answer it or use it as when you mix. It didn't become a carbon neutral fuel. These technologies now and in this episode. I told you basically that. The technology in the past ten years is greater than the technology of the previous hundred hundred years greater than the previous ten thousand. Exactly so what's GonNa Happen in the next ten years in the next ten years as a no win humans feel the need and they say that the the need is the mother of all inventions when humans feel the need to come up with solutions. They will come up with solutions. Bill Gates is one of the great investors in this new technology of carbon capture and carbon capture technology is proving to be more and more efficient than just basically just only planting trees. I actually. I'M ALL FOR PLANTING TREES. But one blunt over three or four acres of land could actually basically suck more carbon than six hundred thousand acres of forested area. That's a lot of carbon sucking exactly which we can sequester it in the ground safely especially an empty oilfield in empty previous previously excited oilfields or we can basically mix it in with hydrogen and basically become a carbon neutral. There is some extent you put your faith in technology but but Ayman you're a Muslim you're supposed to put your in God and here you are sounding like some Silicon Valley Techno futurist Bro Well who I in my own personal belief. I believe it's God who guided this was technology in a in a basically God is masterful. Yes hey so basically that how we are destroying his beautiful creation of but at the same time basically he is whispering into our minds the solutions for it so I'm not saying basically Silicon Valley receiving direct Starlink from God. But I'm saying here is that there is a solution and the solution is technology and human innovation. Those who say those who say. Stop everything right now. Unfortunately they are actually dooming even further not actually providing any solution. You can shout industries all you want. You can shout until your lungs explode but shouting will get us anywhere. Panicking will not get us anywhere. Blockading airports on roads and Bridges and in subway trains. An underground trains will not get us anywhere. Well I agree with you. I think that panic isn't the solution. But as for your faith in in in technology you might be an optimistic Muslim. But I'm I think I'm more of a pessimistic Christian and I'm not sure that I put my faith in Silicon Valley and men like Elon. Musk I just can't bring myself to do it. I I sort of think we probably are going to be Soon facing a much more a catastrophic change in political economies change in our levels of consumption I mean if you ask me. I tend to sympathize with with those voices from the from the nineteenth century movement that that sees as a consequence of this industry and the consequence of rising prosperity. See something like An essential spiritual problem at work there that is now manifesting itself outside of ourselves and and for me spiritual problem really has a spiritual solution. I don't know what that solution is. Probably just muddies the water even further to bring it up but The part of the extinction rebellion movement that beyond the panic is encouraging people really to spiritually transform. They may not they might not think of it in that way but consume less by less save live in greater harmony with their with the environment that strikes me as at least part of the solution. I agree but still. I have to say that this message does not transcend the borders of the Western world. It's still a western mindset a western white man savior mentality. They know still. I'm just saying from the point of view of people I talk to in the Middle East and China and India and Africa. People just basically are not buying it. The climate crisis is the new white man's burden and to bring the light of revolutionary environmentalist. Change to you Brown and black people who don't know any better exactly. That's so depressing. I know but that's the reality in when you when you talk to an adult. Basically in Albury optimistic they will say. Oh look basically. We're using yes. We are getting the carbon hydrocarbons basically out of the ground extracting we making money. But what we are doing with that we are saving. We're investing we are basically buying more technology to replace our Petrol powered the electricity generators with solar wind a nuclear so we may survive and we have water so basically whenever he tells them. Yeah but the West saying though there will immediately wave their hands specifically and say let the sharp they have all the water we have none so they should shut up because we have far more pressing problems than theirs and we know how to deal with ours. Let them deal with their well. It's the message I'm hearing so Ayman Extinction rebellions. Rhetoric isn't Appealing to the to the Non Western world as you say so. How could western environmentalists change their message to appeal to the East? You mentioned earlier. The they could perhaps position their message along the lines of health and human health. What they need to do is to focus on the environment and the environment only festival. There is no need for the intersection. Oddity of causes like in a Vegan ISM and socialism. And all of these things. You just drop it. It's not going to sell in the rest of the world. That's the first thing second thing is to tell the people basically it is for their own health and the second thing is for their own survival. So for example if I'm GONNA convince the Government of Bangladesh for example that it is in the interest of the government of Bangladesh to implement environmentally friendly policies because they are one of the first countries that will suffer. F- The Levels rises because her very low country in a way the possibility of flooding that could displace tens of millions. This is the strategy that has largely been pursued by the UN and other global bodies. Exactly because it's a com measured in a way of approaching this so unbalanced. Then you're actually rather you're you're not you're not antipathetic to the environmentalist movement more generally the the moderate bureaucratic almost a way that it has been pursued over the last few decades. It's these radical voices that have sprung up in recent years that you don't really think are on the right track because you can't go to people in a basically in developing countries and tell them that sorry you will never reach the prosperity that we ever achieved because you know what the what is about to end. So what are you missed? Your sports audio musty over time. But that's it. We're going to switch off the top of prosperity and you have to live in the Stone Age. This is a message that is coming into the rest of the world and the rest of the world giving them the finger back so Ayman what do we do? Just don't panic. My Fear Thomas here is that I've been in an organization that is classified as terrorists in which is allied and what I'm afraid is that as movements like extinction rebellion and others are framing the human race as the enemy and would the rhetoric going about how humans are going to doom the Walden in end the world there would be some young minds who are genius and clever but nonetheless isolated and in full of conspiracy theories in their heads they might basically just decide together to develop a virus and just release it into the population in order to reduce the human population or even ended and they see this as a favor already. There is a university professor here in London she no. She came up with a book just recently where she argues that we should stop all having and let the humorous die so planet. My survive ideas like this are becoming normative. It's true I mean I think you you you do encounter such such ideas more and more regularly and I. I can imagine that certain impressionable people. Maybe the same sort of might initially get involved in in a mosque study circle to increase their own piety and then they hear more. And more of of this sort of conspiratorial apocalyptic rhetoric from the Islamist Right or instances left or whatever you WANNA call it it might. They might find themselves on a road that leads to evermore extremism that that sometimes does result in in violence in fact whenever I talk to my clients in a basically either the private or public sector When it comes to counter terrorism issues they actually express the fact that they are seeing the embryonic stages of environmental terrorism because the rhetoric is so vicious right now from minority of environment huge minority of them but just like Muslims minority of Muslims get involved in Islamist violence but it causes a big president minority that minority. Oh that's an interesting question. Medically a very small minority of Muslims are seduced by Islamists. That causes a big problem. Exactly the same thing with the environmentalist movement who will have a small minority who would actually most likely end up resorting to violence and terrorism in the future possibly the near future because if we have this deadline of twelve years unfortunately being propagated by politicians who should know better. A you end up. Basically pushing agitated people towards violence and we need to. This is what I'm saying. We should impaneled people. Just please calm down your rhetoric. We're not the kind of the high. We will survive in the water. We must survive so if it is true that it is the climate change Political rhetoric that might unite a diminishing west and allow them to claw back some of the power. They've been losing of late. It might be that weirdly. Enough environmentalism becomes the ideological underpinning of the new world order. We are certainly living in a world very different. Ayman from the one that we grew up. Man George H. W. Bush's new world order didn't turn out as he planned. But nobody can doubt compared to the Cold War when the globe was split between the two superpowers of America and the Soviet Union or even to the nineties. When for a brief moment America was totally. Dominant today following everything. We've touched on over the course of two seasons now. Nine eleven. The war on terror the rise of China the return of Russia the clash between Iran and Saudi Arabia in the oil-rich Gulf and the twin crises of global capitalism and climate change. We're in a much more multi-polar polar world than we were a world. That remains conflicted. Dear Listener. Thank you so much for sticking with us throughout the season of conflicted. We hope you've enjoyed it and we'll keep listening when we come back for our third season and don't worry you won't have to wait very long. This time to hear the details as soon as we announced them. Subscribe to the show in your podcast APP and follow us on social media. You can find us on facebook and twitter at M H conflicted and of course once again you can win a book connected to this episode. It's called wilding by Isabella Tree. And it is a beautifully written description of a pioneering re wilding project a reminder of the power of nature to heal itself if human beings step back and let it happen to have a chance to win it. Join our discussion group on facebook. Four the twenty ninth of April. You can find it. By searching conflicted podcast. Discussion Group conflicted is a message heard. Production it's produced by Sandra Ferrari and Jake. Attaya the edited by Sandra Ferrari. Our theme music is by Matt Huxley. Thank you again. My name is Thomas Small and Ayman and I will be back soon. Stay tuned goodbye.

Saudi Arabia Ayman Matt West Middle East India China Yemen London al-Qaeda Arabian Peninsula Syria Beijing UN Thomas Small UAE Red Sea
From the Vault: The Sacred Mountain, Part 2

Stuff To Blow Your Mind

49:40 min | 5 months ago

From the Vault: The Sacred Mountain, Part 2

"Hey folks. If you need business, communications use vantage. They've got unified communications, contact centers and communications API's. That'll figuratively blow your mind, but literally make your mind explode from sheer joy literally. But that's it. They're great at all those. Yeah. They're not so great at say discussing how black holes form or or getting into the complexity of invertebrate emotions for that kind of stuff. We're way better, so von for amazing business communications. Yes, stuff to blow your mind for you know answers to the universes biggest questions von age. Now we're talking. We're all living in the ripple effects of history. The Butterfly flaps its wings in China in the nineteenth century, and your Uber driver misses the turn for the airport or an eccentric genius, convinced air conditioning and change the course of American politics. I'm Sean Braswell host of the thread and I'm back with a brand. New podcast presented by ozzy called flashback. A series of stories of unintended consequences listen to flashback on the iheartradio APP, apple, podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey. To blow your mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe. McCormack in its Saturday time for a vault episode. This is going to be part. Two of our journey to the Sacred Mountain, began last Saturday. This episode originally aired on April twenty fifth. Twenty nineteen. We hope you enjoy it. walkaway quietly in any direction in taste the freedom of the mountaineer. CAMP, out among the grasses, and the engines of Glacial Meadows in craggy, Garden Nooks, full of nature's darlings climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's piece will flow in you. As Sunshine flows into trees, the winds will blow their own freshness into you and the storms their energy. While cares will drop off like autumn leaves as age comes on one source of enjoyment after another close, but nature sources never fail I. Know that our bodies made to thrive only in pure air and the scenes in which pure air is found. Welcome stuff to blow your mind. Production of iheartradio has. Hey welcome to blow your mind. My name is Robert. Land and I'm Jim McCormick and those quotes. We just read. We're of course from the great. John you're one of great. priests of the religion of the mountains absolutely a true American Hero I. Say that without a shred of irony. Important individual in the natural preservation efforts of the United States. And I like these two quotes because he's he's getting into the power, and the of the mountains net I quote in that second he's talking about the air of the Wilderness, and we're going to be discussing the air of the Wilderness in this are second episode on Sacred Mountains, but I suppose we should. We should of course. Refer you back to the first episode of. He didn't listen to the first episode on Sacred Mountains go back. That is the. Important first installment, but let's catch everybody up to speed. And we chatted about last time sure will last time we talked about holy mountains from religious and cultural beliefs around the world and common types of beliefs about holy mountains we talked about the idea of mountains as the homes of the gods, or as the bodies of God's themselves as like entrances to other world as pillars that hold up the heavens as places of pilgrimage as places where. where the gods once were or still dwell or sleep, there's almost an infinite array of ways in which mountains have been religiously significant, and so we talked about some reasons that might be of course there are things having to do with perspective when one climbs mountain and looks down at the earth there are there. There's just the sheer fact of its size. I mean in a pretty basic sense. Yeah, and just how important natural forms are. The shaping of our cosmology in our sins of self. We discussed like the main points along these lines. In the last episode we also talked about stories expressed by many mountain climbers, certainly not only by mountain climbers of hallucinations during the journey of climbing a mountain, including the very common third man syndrome the experience of syncing another person making a journey with you, who in fact is not there right and it's very often would say a neutral apparition. Beneficial one, so it's not like. Oh, my goodness! There's a monster beside me. It's more like Oh. There's a I I thought it was up here alone climbing this mountain, but there's this this other fella and That's comforting to know that it's not just me. Yeah, we read a section from an account by the mountaineer Frank Smythe who wrote of his experiences, attempting and failing to summit Mt Everest alone in nineteen, thirty three, and he wrote in one section of his account quote all the time that I was climbing alone I had a strong feeling that I was accompanied by a second person. And, then later I remember constantly glancing back over my shoulder, and once when after reaching my highest point, I stopped to try and eat some mint cake. I carefully divided it and turned around with one half in my hand. It was almost a shock to find no one to whom to give it. And of course they're also plenty of much more recent reports of the same thing. People having strange experiences, delusions hallucinations repair at least apparently to you know modern skeptical thinkers hallucinations. It's very possible if people had these experiences in the ancient world, or if they're just less sceptically minded, they might think you know. This was a real presence with me on the mountain. There is something supernatural happening up there, right? There was something revolting about my men cake. Drove a spirited away. Now, it's clear that very high altitudes can have a number of health effects that could have neurological and psychological implications. These are generally thought to be caused by the lower air pressure at higher altitudes. This is understood to be the major cause though I think it's worth emphasizing that there are things that are still not fully understood about altitude sickness, absolutely and You know there's a whole. There have been numerous studies over the years about individuals. climatized do a high altitude. Environments th. That's something that could potentially come back and do an entire episode on. Yeah, but I think one of the interesting things about altitude sickness that we still don't fully understand is why it affects different people so differently like you can't always predict whether a person will experience altitude sickness at a certain altitude, so the generally understood major cause of altitude sickness seems to be the lower air pressure means less oxygen is compressed in the atmosphere because you're. You're up higher. This others less atmosphere sitting on the air. You're breathing right and it is an idea that we initially explored in the under pressure episode. Yes, and so this means you literally get less oxygen with each breath, and of course you need oxygen to survive. If you're getting less of it with each breath you take, you can begin to suffer negative consequences in the body and the brain right, and meanwhile you are perhaps a climbing mountain. Yeah, so you're. You're exerting yourself anyway, but it can happen even without exertion. That's important to note, and exactly what altitude it sets in varies a good bit person to person. We were just talking about a reasonable figure. At which a significant percent of people will display symptoms is sometimes cited to be eight thousand feet or twenty five hundred meters, but for each individual person. It's a toss up. You individually might be affected at a lower altitude or a higher altitude. It's hard to. To know for sure if you haven't been there before, it's usually said to be worse if you ascend quickly and don't give your body time to adapt to lower air pressure at higher altitude, so that is one thing. If you're expecting to be like hiking at high altitude, it's good to give yourself time to hang out at high altitude without exerting yourself I. always be wary. You were aboard the starship enterprise and you teleport down to a mountain top. teleport to the Lower Mountain area first! Base camps are still important guys, but some common symptoms of like mild to moderate altitude sickness would be the kinds of things you would first of all kinds of things you would expect with less access to oxygen, so maybe shortness of breath breathing harder with less physical exertion, faster heart rate. You know your heart's beating hard is trying to oxygen it your tissues. You're just not getting enough oxygen in each breath and so. So. You know you'd expect those kind of things, but also you can experience nausea, dizziness or lightheadedness, and it can mess with your natural drives such as for sleep in for food, so you can have loss of appetite headache in that kind of thing in much more severe cases of altitude sickness, you can have changes in the color of skin. You can have tightness in the chest. You can have mental effects like. Loss of loss of awareness loss of coherence or confusion there can even be coughing up of blood or loss of consciousness, and there are subsequent life threatening conditions that can come out of altitude sickness one is known as high altitude, Ponnary Dima, or hey, h, AP, where altitude sickness leads to a build up of fluid in the lungs this if you experience, it is life threatening, and you should act on this immediately. Another is high altitude, cerebral, a or Hase, when altitude sickness leads to swelling of the brain, which is very dangerous, and of course can cause all kinds of mental disturbances, and so obviously one question we might have is. If people often report seeing things that aren't there in the mountains, to what extent can these be traced to known psychological or not psychological known physiological conditions like cerebral Dima hase absolutely, and as we mentioned in the last episode. You know we're. We're not looking. This is the sole cause were the sole. Reason that one has mountain. That's, but it could certainly take. Thing that augments them or feeds them in some cases nowhere as we mentioned previously in the other episodes, there's no way that say psychological disturbances as a result of you know less oxygen, reaching the brain or something like that could explain all the myths, so one reason for that is that many holy mountains aren't high enough to cause any altitude related symptoms. I mean there there're holy mountains that are just a few hundred meters high, so it's obvious that you know these are these. These are geographical landmarks, and they serve you know they represent things to people. It doesn't have to be that. Somebody went up on there and had a hallucination that caused them to found a a religion or a myth around the mountain. Though we do want to point out that it's possible that in higher mountains, people going up into these altitudes could have contributed to beliefs, strange supernatural beliefs about some mountains right or the idea that in general mountains provide some sort of a loosening. Loosening of the veil between this world and the next. Yeah, that's a great way to put it so I want to call attention to one recent paper in particular in the journal, psychological medicine the deals with these phenomena of people high up in the mountains, having strange anomalous experiences, this was by Katerina Hook ner at all called isolated psychosis during exposure to very high and extreme altitude characterization of a new medical entity in this was published in two thousand eighteen so the authors. Authors here have examined about eighty three documented cases among reports from Alpine expeditions, and they believe they've identified a new independent condition that separate from altitude sickness in separate from any existing mental disorder. It's called isolated high altitudes psychosis now of course, psychosis is a set of symptoms that would be I hap- right way what we can call that I have I have I have oh i. didn't even think about an acronym. I happy. Yeah, this is okay. The International House of Psychosis. A psychosis is a set of symptoms including hallucinations, delusions, disorganized speech, abnormal psychomotor, behavior and negative symptoms, and additionally impaired cognition, depression and mania, so it's characteristic of of underlying conditions like schizophrenia, but can also occur in isolation due to a number of inciting stressors. You know one of the things that people often think that hallucinations can only occur if somebody has an underlying mental illness, but. But people who don't have an underlying mental illness sometimes experienced hallucinations, just depending on like fleeting stresses and things that are affecting them absolutely Oliver Sacks. Book loose nations is is always a fabulous source on all of this. Because he you know. He Discusses Hallucinogens a little bit in there, but but for the most part it's. It's all these various other causes in play, right? Right so the authors examined a list of documented cases of mountaineering, and they looked for signs of high altitude psychosis, and then they cross reference this to see whether there were always concurrent symptoms of physiological distress from high altitudes, such as a high altitude, cerebral edina or hase. Obviously you can see why if the brain is swelling with fluid that might cause things like hallucinations disturbances so. So from previous studies, we know that often psychosis occurs high altitude seems to vary a lot depending on who's doing the counting what criteria they use, so this is unfortunately a case where the the are not very solid. They seemed to be all over the place like whoo at all. In two, thousand and six found that there were hallucinations in three percent of cases with hace. Wilson at all. In two thousand nine reported hallucinations in thirty two percent of above seven thousand five hundred meters, which is a totally different criteria, and than the last thing obviously, so we're not going apples to apples here. We're just seeing what there is to to see about. Hallucinations at altitude Brugere at all in nineteen, ninety nine quote found hallucinatory experiences in seven of eight or eight percent of world class climbers who reached altitudes above. Above eight thousand five hundred meters without supplementary oxygen. Obviously, this is a pretty wild fluctuation and I don't know for sure, but I'd guess the discrepancy here has to do with the methods. They're using to select cases in these different studies right. You'd probably very different numbers If you just check to see if climbers self report psychosis versus say proactively asking them if they've had psychosis. Yeah, this is one of those spreads of numbers that. Brings to mind the whole. It just depends on how you tortured. The numbers one kind of story. You're going to get out of them. Exactly I mean I think one of the problems here is that we don't have anything consistent. To work with going into the study, so they had to try to come up with with a method of their own, and they know it's not perfect, but it's just to sort of get a rough idea where to start looking at this problem. So in the present study, the authors found first of all the psychosis of some kind often happens when you're at high altitude, their sample, which they did from consulting, existing literature yielded a result, if found hallucinations occurred in forty two percent or thirty, five out of eighty, three of the episodes that they surveyed at a mean altitude of seven, thousand, two hundred eighty meters. Meters and of these episodes, thirty four percent or twelve out of thirty, five, the nation's occurred at the same time that there are signs that the person had a cerebral deem our ace. They determined that high altitude psychosis can happen together with hace or with others, physiological effects, or without them, therefore they concluded that isolated high altitude psychosis or I have your coining Considered an independent psychological condition related to high altitude, and not just as a possible symptom of altitude sickness soon and finally they concluded high-altitude psychosis is associated with an increased risk of accidents or near accidents. That's kind of not surprising Now they propose some hypothetical causes for these non hase cases of high-altitude psychosis. One would be like social and sensory deprivation in conjunction with psychological stress stresses, often a common inciting factor for people who don't otherwise have him illness to have hallucinations. Right, and then, of course, it's so varied depending on how much stress and individual is going to have in a given circumstance how stress affecting their performance and their mental capacity. Yeah, and then you add social and sensory deprivation to that. They don't have anybody else there to talk to their climbing alone. or they have a limited numbers of people there with the their view of the world. You know there might be a lot less like color and stuff than they normally be seeing Oh. Yes, another potential 'cause they signed his quote dysfunction of the temporal, parietal junction and Angular Gyrus, due to Hypoxia, glycemic and cold. And then finally they say well. Another possibility is just that. Hey is going on in these cases, and somehow it's being under diagnosed in the field. Maybe a lot of these people experiencing psychosis do have hastened just for some reason, the normal symptoms are not showing up and being recorded. This is especially true. You're going it alone right, or or even if you you have a climbing partner. You may not be having just a regular. Check in about sure your your feelings of physical and mental health. Yeah, and of course cerebral a deem is like that. It's really dangerous like if you have this, you should be getting treated for it. That's not a time to say okay I'll just power through and dry up to the summit now this is interesting. Going back to what frank, smythe and the others have. Have talked about with with their experience of what's known as Third Man Syndrome the authors here found that when climbers reported perceptual disturbances, various kinds the majority, though not all of them, but the majority of them were either neutral or even helpful and comforting a for example, a hallucinated climbing companion who protects and guides them or a voice, encouraging them or warning them of danger. Now just because the majority of these perceptual disturbances and hallucinations are positive in nature, or at least neutral, doesn't mean we shouldn't worry about them. Since hallucinations high-altitude correlated with the risk of accidents. It's not hard to see why that would be. climbers at high altitudes should be aware that psychosis is very possible and should develop defensive strategies for what happens if it sets in. If you think you see somebody that you don't remember being there, otherwise, you should have like procedures in place for that like reality testing. Yeah, now on the other hand about the study, obviously there appears to be some weakness in the selection criteria for cases but. But I guess in this kind of study. You're limited by the fact that you can't just stick people random tests subjects at the top of a mountain and see if they undergo psychosis They're also the authors point out. There is survivor bias at play right? We're hearing stories of people who were able to report their stories right some people who did not succumb on the mountain or experience some sort of fatal accident or didn't have somebody with them. WHO got to report? What HAP- right? Yeah, they saved for future studies. You could perhaps simulate some conditions like this in chambers that simulate altitude with low oxygen or low atmospheric pressure. Also you don't need to have a huge or hugely random number of cases. If you just want to establish that, sometimes people report psychosis at high altitudes with no record of altitude, sickness or acute sickness, like hase now we mentioned already that would one of the other factors here is that not all sacred mountains are enormous sky scraping. Monuments to the Sky God right, not all most sacred mountains are probably not even tall enough for people to be reaching the same kinds of foods that are in this study, though some are the authors, your point out that Reports of symptoms reminiscent of psychosis among mountain climbers come from very high extreme altitude, so like thirty five to fifty five hundred meters, or even above fifty five hundred meters, so they're going to be tons of holy mountains around the world that the not even reach these altitudes, nobody could could climb high enough to be at the altitudes like the ones being studied in this in this research so I'd say whether the physiological or psychological effects of altitude contribute to these types of religious beliefs in some cases, especially a higher peaks. It's hard to know for sure, but absolutely it seems possible in even. Even attempting origin story for some Holy Mountains and sacred peaks around the world yet one thing and I come back to this whole idea that most of these reported cases of another of this you know the third man, or what have you is going to be a neutral or beneficial, and indeed, when we look at all these different myths about Holy Mountains, is this so many of them are about like the gods living there I wanted to find more mountain. Monsters truly did I'm always looking for the monsters, and not to say there are not mountain monster, certainly there There are traditions of things coming down from the mountains, Kravis Cetera but it kind of seems like they're. They're weighted in favor of at least the neutral deities, neutral spirits, and what have you and even beneficial beings as opposed to the the monsters of say now doom, or the lonely mountain in Tolkien. Well, maybe we can, we will explore mountain monsters a little bit. Bit Today, but maybe we can explore it more in the future just now. I didn't think about this when we were preparing, but I just remembered the mountain trolls of Iceland. How this right all right? Well, let's take a quick break. When we come back, we'll look at another study and we'll move onto a particular mountain creature that yes, you might qualify. You might describe as a monster. Everybody if you're looking for better business, communications use von `age they have unified communications that Organiz, all your texts emails and voice calls onto one platform contact centers that integrates seamlessly with salesforce and API's that can help developers build communications into your APPS, but that's it. Those are the things. Varnish is really good at yeah, but not so good at exploring saving machinery of facial recognition, the Ark of the Covenant, the there, the origin of black holes, all of this in a fun and easily digestible way. Just not their thing. We're much much much much better at the Seoul. Science podcasting thing. So in summary Think, von for all your business communication stuff thinks stuff to blow your mind for scientific topics, von edge now we're talking. Though. We're apart these days sharing more so at Geiko. We'd like to say thanks. Thanks for sharing your savage dance moves. Thanks for sharing your diy haircut fails. Thanks for sharing your inner lip sync star. Now it's turned to share with the GEICO giveback the fifteen percent credit on car and motorcycle policies for current and new customers, because we're committed for the long haul, the fifteen percent credit laster full policy term visit GEICO DOT com slash. Give back for more INFO and eligibility. We're back all right. What are we getting next rubber? Right so looking at a study. This that you found in the night ended up diving into. It was yeah, yeah, yeah. I was interested in I didn't know about this one because it seemed like some of the well. Will you describe it? And then we can discuss okay. Yeah, this one was titled Why revelations have occurred on mountains, linking mystical experiences and cognitive neuroscience This was published in Medical Hypotheses Twenty fifteen. From ours back. Lancet and blankie. Quote, here's a quote from the peace quote. Prolonged stay at high altitudes, especially in social deprivation may also lead to prefrontal lobe dysfunction, such as low resistance to stress and a loss of ambition based on these phenomena, logical, functional and neural findings we suggested exposure to altitudes might contribute to the induction revelation experiences, and might further our understanding of the mountain metaphor in religion, so they're really going for it. Yeah on this win and they they point to the major revelations in the three major monotheistic religions. Judaism, the burning Bush This is God speaks through the burning Bush. This is from exodus. Christianity is transfiguration from the book of Matthew. This is in which Jesus divine nature is revealed on lookers. And, then in Islam there's also the the point where all speaks to the Prophet Mohammad. In that also like a mountain revelation. Now. One of the problems here is getting into the idea of insufficient altitudes right? Yeah, so I'd seen. The study brought up on science blog somewhere and I thought. It was interesting because touching on question. We're asking, but I saw it in the context of it, being ridiculed because the main mountains that it's talking about aren't really that hot right, so they're not like super high mountains that would be likely to cause altitude sickness right right? Yeah, they're not dealing with Himalayan peaks here, right This is what the paper says. Though about the idea of moderate altitudes, they said although the revelations discussed here had occurred in moderate altitudes. It may be assumed that in subjects who are prone to mystical experiences. Already moderate altitudes are sufficient to trigger river revelation like experiences and revelations so. The, argument here I guess is is first of all you know not not. Everyone's going to have the same reaction to altitude like we've discussed right and that even moderate high altitude they're arguing could be sufficient. Potentially is one of those more research needed areas right, but it could be enough to push. People. Minds toward mystical experiences, especially those minds are already susceptible to say hallucination to voices or a to the experience of the supernatural, and then the the the remembrance of supernatural experience. You know it's funny that they focus on like the Abraham MC, monotheistic religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam because in the last episode. You remember we had a discussion how it seems to me that That actually sacred geography plays less of a role in the Ibrahimovic religions than it does in many other religions around world whereas. In Abraham religions, it seems that when place is wholly, it's usually because the idea. The something important happened there, whereas in many other religions around the world, the place itself has some religious significance, the re the land itself the mountain is the home of the Gods, or is the body of a God, or is sacred in its own right, not just because of something that happened there right i. Imagine there could be room for a lot of theological discussion in each of these three religions, but yeah all three of these, even as we were mentioning him. We were mentioning the event they were mentioning in the paper, the event that took place the meeting of of an individual and the divine, for instance in the case of the the the the Islam examples. So. At this point I want to turn to. A. Particular Mountain entity because I think it lines up with some of what we were just discussing year, and that's that entity is the Yeti. Everybody's favourite cooler. No, not the cooler I mean unless the cooler has an actual yet the in it. That'd be a good trick. Discovered one, what was it the whether somebody in Georgia? WHO claimed they had a big fluid and like a beer cooler and was like a freezer. There's a whole whole thing about ten or eleven years ago. Yeah! I remember it well, because for one fleeting second It made me wonder. Are we about to know that there is a sasquatch? And of course it turned out to not be the case. It was like a costume or something right now. The Eddie in modern Western culture it has become just kind of a Himalayan variant of the SASQUATCH. You know if I say yet, you major picture, bigfoot or skunk ape. Whatever the regional variation of this creature is and I do think that is important is. To think about the fact that there are variations of the wild man. Being in various cultures, basically like a bipedal creature, covered in hair that is seen all around the world, but has distinct origins in each case right yes. But It was looking at I wanted to get a like a better snapshot of the this ape like beast. as far as like Himalayan traditions go, so I ran across a very very insightful. A piece titled Boonies Tales of the Yeti by Kuehne Zane Coton Tales of the creature exists through the Himalayan region. and. The author points to the different names that are given to this entity so into bip Tabet. There's gangs me or glacier man. There's me Sean Poe or strongman, and each in Poe or great man The SHERPAS College Yeti the lectures. Call it Chew Moon or Snow Goblin I like that one or low moon or Mountain Goblin in Paul. There's Nihil new or Ban Monchy. He didn't provide a track translation translation for those, but I'm assuming some treatment on these various ideas you know and then the Bhutanese say migo or strong man also Greg Poe so we get this idea of like figure of of savage cold strength with possible. You. Know Ga Goblin a qualities as well. So showed rights that the the Migo I idea here dates back to the pre Buddhist bond writings, the the pre Buddhist, animist religion. We mentioned this briefly in the last episode, the indigenous religion of Tibet it came up because Mount Kailash. Amount, Kyle, Lhasa in in the Himalayas is a peak that is holy, not just to Hindus who believe some of whom believed that Lord Shiva and Parvathi dwell on top of Mount Kailash, but it's also holy to some Buddhists, Jane's and members of the bond religion that the Tibetan indigenous religion. Religion and apparently some bon rituals call for the blood of Migo, a slain with a sharp weapon. WHOA, yeah, so yeah, so this was a pre existing idea, but then you get some Westerners involved writing, and then you get this idea exported, and and and reignited in the Western mind so British Traveller William Hugh night of the royals the royal. Society's Club recorded a Yeti citing and nineteen three on his way back to India from Tibet, and then was another sighting in eighteen, twenty, five by a Westerner by a Greek zoologist in a time Bazi. Who described like this unquestionably figure in outline was exactly like a human, being walking upright and stopping occasionally to uproot or pull at some Dwarf Rhododendron It showed up dark against the snow and as far as I could make out wore no clothes. And then later you had print sightings and and so forth in the nineteen fifties that helped popularize the idea of the Yeti in the West. Various Films certainly of television series like in search of. Helped to contribute to this idea and today, the the interest interest in the Eddie continues, but there remains no proof that the creature exists. In fact, examination of preserved evidence of Yetis tends to lean toward the intentional or accidental misinterpretation of another animal or its handiwork. Though DNA worked from the past few years for instance points does. Directly to at Asian bears as the source of the samples. So. All of this in any any time we're talking about a Yeti citing even in the Himalayan region, we can't discount hoaxes and various other reasons, but when we consider the potential effects of poxy A- and And these other like a high altitude situations. Joel I think in some degree or related Ibox? We might be talking more of a full blown hallucination, and then at lower altitudes, the effect could just be enough to make the individual. See what they want to see. When they glimpse in normal animal or another human being. So I found this idea of first of all. There is I, did see this idea echoed in searching for the mysterious monsters, a two thousand fourteen book by General for Rifkin now. This is a kids book I WANNA. See, normally, we don't side a lot of kids book, but listen was actually I was reading through it. It's pretty good at it seems to to to balance the mystical. What if with a lot of legitimate skepticism and then also I did see this idea? also echoed in a couple of journals and books, such as one thousand, nine, hundred ninety high altitude, medical science by you'd you too Cushman and vocal and I think there is a lot of Lena. Lot of similarities between for instance that that getty account that I read earlier and accounts of a third man. Here. There is some other. Creature there and Wasn't human, but it was It was hanging out. It was there I glimpsed in what you have this in in in this of course on top of. A pre existing idea of there being some sort of a Yeti creature in the mountains, and then once this idea gets becomes part of of Western culture as well then there's more room to misinterpret the evidence or even your senses now I wonder if the, if like a psychological thing kind of like the the com- the climbing companion the third. Man Syndrome is going on here. What do you think it might be? That would cause people to see a bipedal human like. Covered in hair, as opposed to seeing you know another just another human dressed like them, or to seeing like a dead relative for one of these common hallucinations of comforting figures, well on the hair thing I think certainly have one glimpsed a bear that could throw you off. I mean if you've ever seen a bear in the in the flesh. It can be this weird, surreal and frightening experience I mean hopefully a little frightening because. As far as I'm concerned, if you encounter bear, and you don't have like a certain amount of fear, you're doing it wrong. There are. Good reasons why we see bears as objects of prehistoric religions I mean I think it's quite clear that that bear worship in various forms goes back a long way. That's one of those were kind of obvious why that would happen. Is this kind of like? Too many people. The bear would clearly seemed to be like the king of Nature Yeah. This beast that can also rise up on two legs and stand like us. That is seemingly slow in lethargic, and then full of energy and ferocity that also we got into this in our winter, people episode a couple of years back a creature that in some cases digs its own grave, and seems to die, and then reemerge with life in the spring, yeah Yeah, it does. Does seem quite mystical. You can totally see why bear would be thing that you would be afraid to speak its name speak, it's it's dangerous, holy name and and why if you saw one out in the wild? Yeah, you, you might think you'd had some kind of other worldly encounter all right one. Let's leave the Yeti and take one more break and we come back. We'll continue to discuss the topic. We've quickly found ourselves in tough times that none of us. US could have predicted a couple of months ago. The economy's in a rough spot. Because of Kobe nineteen small businesses and individuals are experiencing hard times with their personal finances, too. That's why we've ramped up. How money episode releases two three times a week because people need money helped now more than ever. Yeah Joel. The virus has taken a toll on our whole world man. It's awful seeing the health impacts in the economic hardship has been really tough for a lot of. Of folks, too, but we take a positive and optimistic approach, and we're here for advice and help as people seek to navigate the complexities of moving forward. Yeah, every week, Madden, I breakdown timeless money as well as timely money information that you need to know to put yourself in a strong financial position, making it easier to whether uncertain times like we're currently experiencing. That's right important. Money Advice three times a week that you can start implementing today, so listen to our show. On the iheartradio APP apple, podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We're back now. We've been discussing or read of delusions, hallucinations and other just various strange sightings and encounters seem to occur often at high altitude. Some possible explanations for what might be going on physiologically neurological psychological. There but we're going to continue with this now. Yeah, so rookie, a couple of other are just examples of not mountain climbers, but individuals encountering some sort of Phantom Stranger while there is. Is the case of Serrano. Shackleton he He encountered a such an apparition, also Antarctic Explorer Peter Hillary. actually encountered a presence that manifested as the double of his dead mother. No, yeah, the whole the ancestors appearing yeah, which which is important to to think think of when when we're, we're thinking about the mountains of potential place where one can encounter the spirits of the departed. So renew roundabout around about this I ran across a scientific American article from twenty ten. On the since presence effect, and this was from Michael Shurmur, always a great source to turn to for discussions of paranormal experiences, because he is an individual who has had paranormal experience Oh. It was If I'm remembering correctly, it was like a like a cycling marathon he was on. It was a it was like a strenuous exercise, and then he ended up like seeing an alien, but it was because of like something he'd been watching previously. He's written about it. quite a bit but you know applying the skeptical mindset, and then understanding how hallucinations occur. How. We think about hallucinations after they occur. takes all of this account so. He touched on all of this. And he pointed a to four or so scientific explanations th that that that he's really really the heart of what's going on when when people like this encounter, some sort of spectral apparition, or at the third man, etc, first of all isolation triggers the mind to hallucinate the normal feeling we get when we're working or traveling. Among other people which seems to be a standard here then the rational control of emotions shuts down due to oxygen, deprivation, sleep, deprivation, or exhaustion, and this opens the door for inner voices in imaginary companions. Next. He says are temporal lobe body scheme. This is the brains image of our body. What it's doing is tricked into thinking. You have a double in ever up for a game of rationalization story making the brain then constructs, a plausible explanation for this doubles presence. Okay like there's another person a there's another human being. That's covered furs and their next to me oh well. I guess that is another mountain climber. Likewise though I could see where this would be exactly the kind of thing that could be misinterpreted as a Yeti right because if you're climbing a mountain in the Himalayas, you're probably bundled up head to toe. You probably don't look like. A low altitude human anymore then there's the mind Schema. Psychological sense of self and it's simply coordinating independent neural networks to solve the problem with survival in extreme situations in the hallucination comes out of its function of making this feel like we're a single mind, yeah, but then o on the on the sleep deprivation of situation he he points to Charles Lindbergh's transatlantic flight. Insurer quotes. His writings quote the fuselage behind me becomes filled with ghostly presences, vaguely outlined forms transparent, moving riding weightless with me in this plane conversing in advising on my flight, discussing problems of my navigation, reassuring me giving messages of importance unattainable in ordinary life. Shurmur also shared his own brother-in-law member of Fred zeal or Zeile. Ex- experienced a since presence on both of his Everest climbs the first case involved frostbite, and the lack of oxygen in the second entailed his collapse from dehydration hypoglycemia. Quote tellingly when I asked his opinion as a medical doctor. Impossible hemispheric differences to account for such phenomena Fred noted both times the sense was on my right side, perhaps related to my being left handed. The central presidents may be the left hemisphere interpreters explanation for Right Hemisphere Anomaly Oh. This takes us back to our split brain episodes. Is that the idea of the the interpreter now? Normally, this would be the left hemisphere interpreter this Michael Zonta Gez idea of the. The interpreter, being this function in the brain that sort of ties, together disparate neural phenomena into one experience that we since as a single unified whole and sort of tells a story that makes it all part of the same game, where in fact you know the hemispheres, as was shown in Split Brain, experiments can behave quite independently of one another. Yeah, but but we've got this thing that Gazzaniga calls the interpreter that Says No. No, no, that's all you just you. So two things come to mind and discussing all of this first of all is I'm all anytime. We discuss altitudes and pressure I'm reminded of the fact that human beings are not a creature that evolved to thrive on the earth there there, a creature that evolved thrive in a very thin atmospheric layer on the earth. Yeah, and then only within certain ranges, and when we get out of those ranges when we get out of there are layer. That we we thrive in We run into problems. The other thing I'm reminded of is Joe. Have you ever been to a? Children's musical performance, preferably a band or orchestra. I've been in that performance into one, too. So you know how ideally if everybody's doing doing their job, and the you know the the the conductors pointed altogether There's a unity you know. They're performing this this piece sometimes, but in other cases, things kind of drift and fall apart. and. I feel like that's kind of what's what's being described here. At at at high altitude, the the orchestra performance that is our mind state is is drifting. It is like it is. It's not so much A. Professional level performance anymore. It is a middle school band. Performance and things are getting out of sync. Things are getting out of whack, and then what does that mean when we are the performance? That's a really good analogy, because in that case, I mean you got even if Gonzaga's interpreter theory is not exactly right, there clearly is a way in which the mind the human brain is performing itself for an audience of itself like you and away are the audience of what your brain is doing, and so you're there watching how the show is going, and if the show is not going right you, you are syncing it even though you're also the thing that's messing up. All right so. I'm not a mountain climber. I'm not a mountaineer, I visited mountains. I've had I think I. discussed like maybe a very limited reaction to an increase in altitude that was slightly noteworthy, but I know we have to have some mountaineers out there who are listening to the to these episodes or listeners, a regular listeners to the podcast, so we would obviously love to hear about your experiences. Experiences at how high altitude have have you ever experienced anything like what we were discussing here or have you simply have you never experienced? Or perhaps you can just speak to the the on Majesty of the mountains. Perhaps you've visited some of the sacred mountains that we mentioned in the first episode on. You have a particular favorite. You wanted to discuss. We'd love to hear from you. Another question I have is. So outside of Lord of the Rings, outside of skeletal or Snake Mountain and masters of the Universe and the Traveling Mountain fortress of the beast and crawl. Are, they're evil mountains in mythologies and folklore that we we neglected to mention because I was I was looking around for him, and I like I say the mountains tend to be. Part of just a sacred. Ecosystem. Geography or are home to various beings, but like this idea of there being like a amount doom, a place of of evil you know, or or the place that has been occupied solely by an evil force I, just didn't see as much of that like aside from a few mountain trolls and a few campuses here and there and certainly a few things could may be classified as as monsters earth, thriving amid other magical creatures and spirits at say Kunlun Mountain. What are some potential examples here? I don't know that's a good question. I'm sure there must be mountains that are believed to be held or something like that a place of evil gods, and that are physical mountains on earth, but I didn't I. Don't think I came across any so bring us. Your monsters is what I'm saying. Yeah, bring them unto us so that we might see them and consider them in the meantime. If you want to check out more episodes of stuff to blow your mind over to stuff to blow your mind, dot com, that's mothership. That's where you'll find all the episodes you find links out to social media. Media, and hey, if you want to support the show, the best thing you can do is to rate and review US wherever you have the power to do so rate review lever. Some stars leave us a nice calm. It really helps the algorithm and help spread the word about the show. Totally huge thanks as always to are excellent audio producers Alex Williams and Tari, Harrison, if you would like to get in touch with us directly directly with feedback about this episode or suggested topic for the future or just to say hello, you can email us at contact at stuff to blow your mind dot com. Your mind a production of iheartradio's house to work her more podcasts from IHEART radio. Is iheartradio APP, apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows? Up Some. took. We're all living in the ripple effects history. The Butterfly flaps its wings in China in the nineteenth century, and your Uber driver misses the turn for the airport or an eccentric genius Vince air conditioning and change the course of American politics. I'm Sean Braswell. And I'm back with a brand new podcast presented by ozzy called flashback. A series of stories of unintended consequences listen to flashback on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Plus Twenty twenty, we know things have been super weird lately were robbed of a graduation ceremony, so we found some people to write you. Speeches John Legend. He's an flurry Clinton. She's in into over twenty of your favorites from Dj College coach. K. Abby Wambach to Halsey. They're all here to give wisdom that we could all use right now. Listen to iheartradio new podcast commencement. 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Ep. 719 - Twitter Goes Full Orwell

The Andrew Klavan Show

47:19 min | 1 year ago

Ep. 719 - Twitter Goes Full Orwell

"Sinn n White House reporter Jim look at me. I'm Jim Acosta has a new book out entitled look at me, I'm Jim Acosta by Jim. Look at me. I'm Jim Acosta. Subtitled. Why you should look at me because I'm Jim Acosta. The book details a cost a struggle to cover the White House. In such a way that everyone will look at him because he's Jim Acosta a Kosta rights of the terrifying moment when he was forced to fight off an attack from one hundred and five pound female, White House aide, who tried to wrestle the microphone from his hand, while he was in the midst of shouting, his personal opinions at the president of the United States, a cost to writes, quote, she came at me, like a bat out of hill, and I realized at any moment, I might lose my grip on the microphone so that the audience would no longer. Look at me even though I was still Jim Acosta. Now, there are some, some I should add, who are not there in the thick of the battle, who said, I should not have knocked this attacker away from me because she was only a woman, but some of these babes are fast moving, like a shark through the water were to torpedo or. Or girl. So at any moment, they knock you off center stage. I couldn't let that happen unquote in another section of the book. Kosta writes, movingly of the threat, Donald Trump poses to the free pressing, quote Donald Trump. Trump calls the press the enemy of the people, but really when you think about it who are the people that we should not be their enemies. Are they me, Jim Acosta, our the even looking at me? And if not, why not do they not know who I am on quote the answer to these and other questions are in the book were in fact, in the subtitle of the book, which would save you a few bucks trigger warning? I'm Andrew klavan. This is the Andrew klavan shop. Donkey. All sustain. Z tops zippy's. Wonderful. A lot of conservatives possibly even me have been misusing the word absurd. And since it may be the most essential word of our era. We should get the meaning right? We sometimes say that labelling an orthodox drew ju- trad. Con like Ben Shapiro alt-right, or white supremacist is absurd with it, calling the centrist gay, Liber -tarian, Dave Rubin. Far-right is absurd now. Pardon me, the word absurd means utterly, or obviously, senseless, illogical or untrue. And yes, in one sense, these labels fit that Bill if they're point were to communicate the truth. But in fact, these attacks are not senseless. They're not absurd. They're part of a strategy the internet and social media have up till now democratized information, which in effect means they took information out of the monopoly of powerful corporate left wing gatekeepers and made it possible for independent voices to be heard some of those voices conservative. The left thought it could keep that under control by intimidating. These speakers, and their listeners with slurs like. Racist, sexist islamophobic. Homophobic, all the rest no one likes being called names and demonized. And if anyone fought back they were called, uncivil this strategy largely worked right-wingers, especially right wingers, who wanted to keep their jobs or get elected mixed districts, learn to watch their words and watch their steps, and then along came, Donald Trump Trump who's rude and a bore and doesn't care what anybody calls them and can give just as good as he gets. And that was okay at first, because this is what the elites thought of Trump running for president. People think that Donald Trump is a clown. Donald Donald Trump is a clown. I mean, does anybody seriously think that Donald Trump is serious about running for President Donald Trump, as a clown, but likely moderator apparently believes that Donald Trump is a clown, which Republican candidate has the best chance of winning the general election of the declared ones right now? Donald trump. Roll Trump one never laugh at an Coulter. Now, people have the right to free speech. That's all well and good. But not if you're going to take the elites power away, I mean how the hell did that happen? It must have been Russia, manipulating social media. It must have been fake news on social media. It must have been people suddenly liberated by Trump's bull in a China shop mentality to finally say, what was really on their minds on social media elites can never let that happen again, Google YouTube Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, these are mash of corporations, who believe in the leftism, that ultimately serves powerful people like them and their globalist vision, and it leaves the rest of us nothing but welfare and opiates the left's real campaign slogan should be bug off and die. You deplorable little people. So if social media, let's people speak and Trump Friesen to speak with they're really thinking. And if in speaking, they vote for Trump and Trump gets power, they've got to censor social media and get rid of Trump. Here's how to do it. I push the idea that hate speech. Is not covered by first amendment norms. Second define hate as anything that opposes left-wing opinion, third keep moving left-wing opinion, so that only the elites know what it is on any given day fourth. Now you can define everyone who opposes your power as hateful fifth start banning their voices as hate speech. They don't call Shapiro and Ruben. All right, because they think they're all right? They call them. All right. So that they can lump them in with the others, and silence them at all the people like them so that they can defeat Donald Trump in two thousand twenty so they can have their power back and the rest of us can bug off live in meaningless ease on our guaranteed, incomes and die. I told you this was going to happen. I'm telling you, it's happening and yesterday's Twitter attack on Project, Veritas, was or Weli in as as or William to an example as you could possibly get. We're going to have James on oak from Project Veritas, on to talk about it. I we will talk about Boll and branch, you don't need to spend a fortune to get the rest. You know, they always sell. Bollandbranch, they always tell you, you're going to get a good night's sleep. I have no idea whether you're going to get a night's sleep at all. 'cause I never sleep. I never see. All I can tell you while you're lying awake on Boll and branch sheets. You will be incredibly comfortable, and you will love the way they look what makes them unique is. Each sheet is crafted from one hundred percent organic cotton. That means Boll and branch sheets, not only feel great, but they look great. And since bollandbranch sells exclusively online, you don't pay that expensive retail markup, that's half the price twice the quality. Good deal. Try them for thirty nights and see for yourself. If you're not impressed, return them for a full refund. Go to bollandbranch dot com today and you'll get fifty bucks off your first set of sheets, plus free shipping in the US when you use the promo code klavan. That's fifty bucks off plus free shipping right now at bollandbranch dot com, spelled B O, L L, andbranch dot com. Promo code klavan Boll and branch dot com promo code klavan. Like I said, I don't sleep on him. I just lie awake and appreciate them, but you can lie awake and ask yourself the big questions, like how do you. It's. KO. L. A. V A N. So. Yesterday, Twitter suspended the account of Project Veritas, James o'keefe's, great site, with it goes undercover and investigates, the people that the mainstream media won't investigate, and they, they censor them. Well, have we got James? Bring that man on let's, let's let him tell the story. Okay. If you got in trouble again, I told you to say out of trouble, well, I'm doing journalism. So that's offense. I'll say. So explain, I should just so people know project paradise has an organization, dedicated to investigating corruption. Dishonesty waste and fraud and public and private institutions, and James is the author of American problem. I fight for truth in the era of fake news. Tell us what happened. Where do I begin? Whistle blower comes to us inside of a company called Pinterest was, which is a big tech company to thirteen billion dollar company who had a recent IPO, and this is a whistle blower. This is someone who was willing to lose his job. He knew the risks he gave us secret documents. And since I'm on the daily wire, one of the pieces of information in this document. I have the document in front of me internal employees at petrous recalling Ben Shapiro white supremacists. And they put Shapiro the words, Ben space Shapiro space Islam, or Muslim. Any of those combination of words, I want the call an S T L a sensitive terms list, and he any shared screen shots of, of employees is working at high level in the company talking how they would censor any content mentioning Ben Shapiro. So there's this information, there's also information that live action, the largest pro-life organisation, the, the biggest pro-life media organization. They actually consider them to be pornography. All and, and also other websites PJ media, a zero hedge all porn so we reach out pretentious for comment on Monday afternoon. And Pinterest scrambles to try to cover this information up and removes live action from the porn domain block list before we publish the story, we published the story. The story blows up drudge links to the video and. And then Pinterest then places live action back onto the porn domain block list. And then after that happens. Pinterest just bans live action. And then what happens is YouTube, which drudge has just linked to the video of the all of these expose YouTube bans video, claiming that we violated the private a privacy violation of interest, and then what happens is Twitter sensors, a us publishing video, so YouTube bands, the video, and then petrous informs this young man who blew the whistle that he's been placed on administrative leave so they didn't actually fire him. They placed him on it. I think the reason why they didn't fire him as because they know that they have a lawsuit on their hands, if they fire him for blowing the whistle on what is occurred. So an extraordinary series of events. That is absolutely amazing. It is absolutely amazing that social media is ganging up on you to keep him from exposing social media. From ganging up on conservatives. I mean it's, it's George Orwell. It really is. They've gone. They've lost. They've lost their minds. But I don't really not. I mean it's a strategy right? They are trying to silence us before the two thousand twenty election. They want this is this is the his name is Eric Cochran. I mean he's a hero. We just published an interview with him. He did go on the Tucker Carlson show last night. And what's extraordinary listen to this guy? Eric is he says, I don't care about he was making he was making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, working, and just I gave it all up because he wants to draw out a dozen people like him to do what he did. And if you listen to Eric talk, Eric says this is the watershed moment, he says this is the moment he says it's all happening. I've been doing this for ten years. I've never had YouTube take down one of my videos, and I and I co Vert, we film people I- I leaked documents. That's what investigative journalists do. But now what's happening is that the public the tech companies are putting down the gauntlet and saying, no? This is a bridge too far. You're, you're throwing the stone in goliaths, I and it's hurting us too greatly. And they would never do this to the New York Times they would never do this to the Washington that they'd those guys published secret documents all the time. Right. They publish secret documents into state secrets they publish. I don't know the documents on you and I. But that does, that's not what this is about this is about putting the line in the sand. And this young man has made the extraordinary decision to give it all up to basically ruined his career for a cause greater than himself. And I think that what's what's going to happen. Next is going to be a dozen people like him to blow the whistle. I don't think back big tech and be able to stop them all. Well, this is the thing. I mean it first of all just to unpack it just a little bit. You what you expose was. They were putting you know, I mean, Ben Shapiro, but also, Lila rose and her fight against abortion. They put her on as a porn site. I mean that's an amazing thing. So porn site legitimately banned from Pinterest. And they put it on a point side, you expose that and they shut you down. I mean easy. So. So. Listen truth is stranger than fiction. If you're, you're from Hollywood, if you wrote a screenplay about the executive producer with throw it in the trash, that's too. That's too ridiculous. That's too cliche. No, it's I'm, I know this sounds crazy, but it's all happening. Yeah. This is the moment in time. I'm not exaggerating like Pinterest. Put pressure on Google Pinterest put pressure on YouTube corporate and said, this is too true. And the more, we'll just like from that movie the insider, that's a metaphor for what's happening because this guy's in insider went went out Pacino says the more true, it gets the worst that gets he sits he talks, he courageously blows the whistle. We publish the information in a responsible way on not an opinion guy pundit. I just published facts that the public had a right to know. And I can't go to the New York Times, the Washington Post because those guys, hate my gut so much that they put their hatred and their passion for politics and party ov-. Over the first amendment, and the only place I have to go as YouTube and YouTube takes me down. And do you see those blue checkmark guys on Twitter giving a crap about this? No, they say off with his head the intercept, which is the entire purpose of the intercept is to publish secret. Documents is saying Facebook needs to ban O'Keefe. This is this is this is the moment and the moment in time all they had to do all they had to do say, you know what we were wrong. We shouldn't have done this. We won't do it anymore. It's all they have to do. They, they just change the ballsy and let the Lila rose have a place on Pinterest. But instead, they go after it is incredible. And it is also incredible because it's happening all over James is. I mean it's happening at a very, very big levels, which was amazing about this, these guys, I mean, look at your powerful company because of what you do. But you're not a massive corporation like these guys. I mean these are massive corporations ganging up on an independent voice, which has, which is putting forward, provable facts. I mean, everything you had was on video. You have the guys showing it. You show the documents. It's an amazing things a corporation, silencing independent voice and selling the truth. That's, that's the whole store. I mean, but what Eric Cochran says, in response to that is he says, hopefully shakes people away guy. That's a very powerful. It's like that righteous indignation that Andrew Breitbart, the title of his book, which itself was a quote from Ida tar bell, the Muckraker from the eighteen nineties nineteen hundreds, you're trying to shake people awake. And Andrew, I can't I mean, seven years ago when I did we did these stories, you'd have the blue checkmark mainstream journals, they talk about it. Yeah. But there isn't a whisper, there isn't a word said honored about the first amendment and what you begin to see. Is that these companies are not actually in? They have to choose between. It's like that. I mean, where the guy the guy is trying to figure out which red button to push sweating. 'cause they have to choose between the first amendment principles that are supposedly sacrosanct, and their political party. Leninist allegiances, buddy. I don't. Yeah. But I don't think they're sweating anymore. I think they've made that choice they've already made that choice. But I think it's going to shake people away. It's gonna wake people up because the mentally the values that we all share as American. This is an American value. This is not a right left thing. This is a fundamental. We, we fundamentally share that, that civic duty to publish information for the public's right to know. So that citizens can make informed decisions to elect the representatives. And if journalists and the fourth estate are going to decide, we, we want to protect the big corporations, who censor the first amendment. Now, this is the moment. This is the event horizon. Yeah, that we have passed and I'm very inspired by what Eric has done. Hey. Okay. From proud of your brother. You're doing a great job. Thank you for coming on. And talking about our shoot. Thank you. All right. We'll talk again. You know if you guys. And if you think listen, if you think this stopped, oh I gotta do another ad. Let me let me get back to this in just a second one to talk about big tokenism new app that lets you share data about yourself your interests and habits and then get paid for it, which is great, first of all, it's addictive. It's really fun to play with. I've been playing with it. But right now, you're already sharing an enormous amount of information with tech companies and they make money off it. Right. So should you. That's where big token comes in. Here's how it works. I you download the app, you sign up for a free big token account next complete actions to earn points and actions will things like answering surveys checking into locations, connecting your social accounts and more. And then you can redeem those points for awards, such as cash, I would end there. But you could also get gift cards or donate your earnings to charity, but I want to repeat cash, you can choose what data you share with big token. And then get paid for it, and you can also get more points for referring friends and family, your data is always secure in big token. If you wanna start. Start earning money for your data, go to the app store or Google play. Search for big token. BI. G. T. O. K E, N NS, all one word, download the app and sign up make sure to use my referral code klavan. Again, search big token in the app store or Google play. Download the app and use my referral code Clayton to sign up claim your data and get paid. And I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, sure big token, everyone knows how to spell that. But what about claiming K, L, A, V A and no es no easing Clayton. If you don't think this is going to go on at the absolute highest level. Another words, silencing James O'Keefe, but they want to silence. Anyone who's exposing the truth? Right. I mean, James, you know, I'm not gonna call him a little guy because I think he's got a good operation going. But it's an indie operation. So he is a little guy in that sense versus these tremendous and Google is tremendous corporation, Google YouTube. You know, Twitter these are big, big people stomping on them. The, the New York Times of former newspaper runs a story that it was given to them by what they call anxious CIA agents. I could've used the word panicked CIA agents here. Here's from the New York Times. Remember John Durham is the US attorney who William bar has sent to investigate the investigation. The I of I the investigation of the investigation of how they started spying on Donald Trump. Here's the New York Times story, Justice department officials intend to interview senior CIA officers as they review the Russia investigation, according to people briefed on the matter indicating they are focused, partly on the intelligence agencies, most explosive conclusion about the two thousand sixteen election that Vladimir Putin of Russia intervene to benefit Donald Trump. The interview plans are the latest sign. The Justice department will take a critical. Look at the CIA as work on Russia's election interference, investigators want to talk with at least one senior counter intelligence official, and a senior. Cia. Analysts. The people said both officials were involved in the agency's work on standing the Russian campaign to sabotage the election in two thousand sixteen while the Justice department review is not a criminal inquiry. It has provoked anxiety. I would use the word panic and terror, but has provoked anxiety in the ranks of the CIA, according to former officials senior agency officials have questioned why the CIA's analytical work should be subjected to federal prosecutor scrutiny their spying right on. Opposition campaign, the opposition's campaign. Why should be subject to scrutiny? So the New York Times of being sympathetic. But if you wanna see something truly amazing and I know I have to show it to you because it was on CNN. So nobody thought his CNN's law and Justice analyst, okay? Let me is his name is Shimon pro coop has pets. Don lemon asks him about this investigation. Listen, this news agency, right? This is on a place where they're supposedly journalists in the room listened to what is answers about this? You know, this report in the New York Times that he mentioned that the Justice department is now questioning CIA officers as they review this rush investigation, which is troubling because, you know, it's not you don't do this CIA kind of operates in their own world. And for the department of Justice to start begin questioning CIA agents people who worked at, you know, for me. I think what all this comes down to is. Is the former CIA director, John Brennan, and I know the president, obviously, has been very unhappy with the way John Brennan has behaved since he left office. And so, I think it goes back to that, that he's very concerned about some of the information and how some of the information that the CIA had really may not have been stood up. They couldn't really verify a lot of the information and the CIA, certainly, John. Brennan was sounding a lot of alarms to members of congress saying something's going on here. I know he was talking to people at the FBI at the time concern that something was going on. But what we're seeing from the attorney general right now is that he's saying, well, you know, they were acting on a lot of information that he's concerned was not verified. The guy. Says you don't investigate the, the CIA lives in its own world. I mean, that those are the words just came out of his mouth. I'm not even making it up right? The CIA lives in its own. There's a journalist. He's a journalist the CIA lives in zone world. You remember a couple of weeks ago, I played that scene from three days of the Condor, where CIA agent, renegades CIA agent, Robert Redford goes to the New York Times at the end says I've exposed you. I've sent the information to the evil stuff, you're doing to the New York Times, and the evil CIA the head says, what if they don't printed, he says, L print it. You know, they have the euro IX shot of the truck coming out with New York Times in the back. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Now they're saying, no, no, no, no. Print that printout that makes Obama look bad. And it makes Donald Trump put upon you. It is. It's an amazing amazing reversal. I mean when James said they have to choose, they have to choose, which red button to push first amendment or their leftist sympathies, they chose already. I mean I talked about that earlier in the week about the New York Times has already said they think corporations should be censored, as long as it's not them as long as it's not what they determine is a journalistic corporation. And the thing about this is I talk about this as a strategy, and it is a strategy, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a conspiracy. Okay. That's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying everybody's gotten together and they're all huddled together and they're saying here's what we're going to do. We're going to move the definition of hate every day. There's going to be a new definition of hate. I we're going to say it's if you don't like gay people that's, that's a problem. Wait, wait. Obama can't say yet that he is in favor of gay marriage. So it's not hit yet. But the minute Obama says he's in favor of game. Suddenly, it's eight to be opposed to that. Co now it's hey, if you don't let a man into the girl's bathroom in your elementary school. And now it's eight if you won't admit that the man is a woman, and he can't play sports with women. You know, the, the idea of hatred moves every single day. The left gets caught in it themselves. But the important point is, is that it's always defined by the elites, it's always defined by the people who have the power so they can keep the power and has always to exclude the people in the midwest. Those deplorables in the midwest is what makes them deplorable is. They don't know what they knew hate is. And so they don't know when they are being hateful, but they don't have to get together and plan that out, it's not like that. It is something that is naturally happening on in their minds. Because they only know each other they never talked to the rest of us. They don't know what Ben the same. They just know he's a powerful conservative voice. You know, they're not listening to him and thinking they not reading his book and thinking, you know, the point you know, it's interesting. They disagree with them here here, he hasn't got this. Right. You know. Doing that. They just know he's the bad guy, and he's got a voice, and he's gotta be shut down. Speaking of Don lemon, or what is Tucker call now. He goes, I'm Don lemon. When I first heard him doing that. I thought I've been getting this wrong all the time, Don lemon is sitting with, you know, Jim look at me. I'm Jim Acosta right here cost us selling his new book. Look at me, I'm Jim Acosta by look at me, I'm Jim Acosta, and they're talking about whether or not they're biased and whether or not they hate Donald Trump. Now, this is a station a Cable News Network that sold this Russian conspiracy, and now the bottom has dropped out of the ratings because people went like, oh, nothing then we're saying is true. Now that bananas, an apple suddenly, the apple is not a banana, whatever it was suddenly not true here. You know, they usually term, old white guys to mean entrenched, powerful people. You wanna see too entrenched people? You know, you're gonna smell their Cologne, these two guys it that you don't have to be white, and you don't have to be old to be entrenched in powerful because they know that they're not going to get fired here. They are talking to one another about how fair, they've been for all those people who say, oh, you know, the press, CNN hates Trump, and the CNN is, you know, loves the Democrats, I watched maharaja with Nancy Pelosi who clearly did not want to answer Manos questions today, even body language, and you know what he persisted and the Astro the tough questions anyway. So of anyone democrat or Republican, regardless of who it is, if you hold, it position of power, we the journalists that CNN are going to question you about it, whether you like it or not. That's right. We're here to hold their feet to the fire and just because we are protrudes doesn't mean that we are anti Trump and, you know, as I write throughout this book, and I try to close it out on, on a hopeful note, we are not the enemy of. The people we are defenders of the people, and we want to defend the people because we're devoted to the people, you and I Don our, our families. Our parents our kids, our loved ones. We all think about all those folks when we come into the office and do this job on a daily basis. We're not here to spin things or you know, color things are certain way, we're here to get the people reliable accurate information on a daily basis. That's why we all come into work everyday. That's it's I mean, could you could put that in a comedy show, such situation comedy because they don't know they don't know that they're talking crap. They don't I really believe that they think. No, no, you know, the cost essentially said that they have to be biased to cover Trump properly because Trump is so bad, but he doesn't hate Trump. You know that's not biased. That's just the truth. They now think their opinions are the truth. So you know when they call Lila rose porn it. They, they kind of think, well, that's kind of what it is to them because the right to kill their children. The. The right to stick a scissors and a baby's head and suck out its brains is such an important thing. It's not it's not killing somebody, that's not killing a baby. That's just women's rights. You know. So it is it is point to them. I know if we're not allowed to hear from the from Lila rose, let's at least here from the babies and Planned Parenthood. Back here yard human. Shoe? Hold still you piece of tissue. This is the hi Jeremy borings, finest moment as far as I'm concerned playing the baby. Here's an here's the left's response to that. To speak, or stone, speak. Please were. No, no, no. You know, the most famous scene in one thousand nine hundred four is the scene when they torture Winston Smith and not to convince him the two into his four not to convince them the two into his five to convention. The two and two is whatever the party says it is hate is whatever the party thinks it is. Because hate is whatever they wanna ban, and hate right now is you and me it's us, and it's going to be that way, at least until the twenty twenty election. And if we lose the twenty twenty election who knows how long that's going to go on. We got a great guest really important guests coming up by Jessie Morton, who wrote a amazing article in the Wall Street Journal called I invented the jihad journal. But I gotta say goodbye to Facebook and YouTube come over to daily wire dot com and subscribe, then you can and, you know, we're talking about this on backstage yesterday when you subscribe, you protect us from these people, you know, when we when our sponsors can't get chased off when we know we've got your support. That's how we live. So please subscribe, it's ten bucks a month hundred bucks for the year. We give you all kinds of things not just the left this tumbler, you got to be in the mail bag. Get to ask questions during backstage, it is a good solid subscription which gives you a lot of goodies. But it also protects our voices and keeps us on the air. Come over to daily wire dot com. Jessie. Morton is a former Jihadist and he has now, co founder of parallel networks organization, combating eight and extremism and special advisor to the counter extremism project. I wanted to bring him in because I wanted to talk about what real hate looks like it doesn't look like Ben Jesse there. I am here. Can you hear me? Yes. I can thank you very much for coming on. I thought your article in the Wall Street Journal. I invented the journal was shocking, just an amazing piece really good job could could you start by explaining how you became radicalized in the first place? So I was a young individual who was confused. I grew up exposed to counter cultural perspective. My father was sort of the that had moved into a commune. I grew up with about billing in the nineteen sixties, counter cultural influences, and then I ran away at sixteen because my mother's side of the family is very physically abusive that was sort of traumatized, and I ran away, sixteen to get away from home abuse gravitated towards actually traveling with the Grateful Dead and became a very far leftist anarchist. Be four. Converting to Islam, having found the autobiography of Malcolm X during a few day, stint in jail in state college Pennsylvania, I became a Muslim who followed Malcolm X more than I thought the actual interpretation prophet Muhammad gravitated towards the political and interpretation of the religion and radical revolutionary interpretation of the religion almost from the beginning. I was taught by Moroccan veteran of the Afghan silver. And she had in Richmond, Virginia and taught a millenarian perspective of religion that the end times was near that the believers the Muslims were in a perpetual war against the nonbelievers predominantly, the great Satan, the United States, and because I felt like my society had not bailed me out of the abuse. And because I had never develop the skills to address the underlying traumas that got me radicalized, I in sort of tuning in and dropping out. And then secondarily fundamentalist interpretation of the Slavic religion. I adopted a very, very serious few that became more and more sympathetic to bin Laden and his attainments al-qaeda overtime. So in nine eleven happened, I actually was inclined to support the terrorists and to go against my own country, ceiling, headed vanden, betrayed me. While it's amazing story now talking about you invented this thing, called the jihad journal, which was actually. An innovative attempt to spread the. Yes, it was. We were very prominent I ran an organization, so I graduated through the ranks I actually was getting a master's degree at Columbia University. While I was a propagandist setting the template upon which a large portion of online radicalization ensued, my organization revolution Muslim, located in New York City was responsible for fifteen Costa, plots are connected to fifteen spots, and we'd ran until two thousand and eleven about one of was killed in about and basically, what we did was we realized very quickly that the threat, we perceived was not so much from people that were trained abroad by all, but one that was homegrown. Domestic alone wolf attack was what we were beginning to be more concerned with and the leadership and was basically saying that what we should do is put the message their message through social media in particular, what we did was rather than just convey their message. We conveyed in American way, it almost was, how Haida on avenue z, well, and one of the ways that we were most innovative was in conjunction with other prominent propagandists. Such samir. Con alligator to American individuals that were later killed in a drone strike in Yemen after joining piping, reading we started an English language online, easing. That was very, very glossy full of very good graphic design I wrote the lead article for the first issue, and we collaborated on making appeal to the American or the western mindset. Unfortunately, I've changed my beliefs now but that template went on after my organization threaten the writers of south park for portraying the profit that temperate was launched by outside. Rated peninsula has its own outlet called inspire and inspire. I dunno article in it who was called how Bank a bomb numbs kitchen, that's the recipe that's been utilizing numerous tax there after and the most successful example of that was the Boston marathon bombers who in two thousand and thirteen while I was incarcerated and was changing my ways I see the consequences of that recipe come to fruition when his brothers killed two and injured hundreds more at the Boston marathon finish line since that day. And. A before that. But particularly that day sets worth motion me trying to make amends for the damage that I have caused. And now I work, interestingly enough alongside of the director of intelligence at the that used to monitoring me for several years of my life, and we worked at combat to hate and extremism. And I wanted to well, let me let me go back for just a minute of the journal when you were you when you were trying to incite people to make lone wolf attacks. What kinds of things did you tell them? How do you how do you inspire someone to do that? I mean it's a combination of mixing feel article, or the religious and the fundamentalist religious interpretations with the political, so a lot of what you see in the language of icies and Haida, if not strictly religious, it is religion. It's a political grief and, and it's a revolutionary political agreements. It's almost like taking, you know, far left some and replicating in manner, where it doesn't call for socialist, utopia. What it calls for a transnational caliphates that copious from the past. That never actually existed. And so when you can transform religious rhetoric into idealistic current events and the great Satan in American imperialist in the Middle East. What you can do is you can mobilize people to go against their own fat. We're talking predominantly, you know, second third generation Muslims from countries where their parents came here, and they are grew up here. They're totally enmeshed in the American society. But for whatever reason they feel like they're drawn to an identity from there. You know, from their ethnic background while you're talking converts, who tend to be the most zealous, but also misinformed. So it's really not so much religious argument. But there's a very crafty way which the propagandist can make it seem like it's ritual and religious because it's comprehensive world unit company culture, and for those that are most susceptible to radical ideas, they love to see the world in a black and white worldview until we use pre primary principles that take a long time to go through in suggesting, I. That God is the only one that can provide legislation so democracy and the concept of man-made like your slay Shen is actually a form of idolatry. And then there's this I do that. You have to hate and reject everyone practices any form of legislation other than the one that quote unquote, God has revealed to Muhammad in the Koran in rations attributed to the prophet, Mohammad. And then there's this idea that, when you can send us is the two of them, you're actually practising monotheism in its complete form, so Muslim. That doesn't believe in the Islamic stated not actually Muslim at all. So not only are you hating non-believer? You also hating the believers they disagree with you. So basically, it's just a, a global hate movement. That's dedicated towards reestablishing some pristine past that never actually existed and in store when you were arrested, what, what we tour, so I had threatened the writer, I n a covert his name, Zachary chesser. He was from an affluent background Fairfax county Virginia radicalized in like six months through direct contact with. On-road out again, a very prominent preacher. The stay was connected to most heresy tax receipts. And in the south park writers said that they were going to portray the prophet Mohammed pair Kosta. We issued a death threat against the south park writers, because we knew that it would create the kind of publicity we needed to get coverage in the mainstream press, but a small segment of those that witness that coverage would adhere to our views. It was basically free market and in the process of trying to explain that situation. We clearly entered the realm of illegal speaks. So what was radical revolutionary speech where we knew we were consciously walking up to the line of the first amendment putting our middle fingers in the air. So to say and then carefully tracking back we've gotten away with that for many years. The south park threat crossed that threshold. I knew that it did I fled to Morocco and it was there that I was extracted from the movement. And suddenly Darab spring broke outs and I had exposure to air money. Oh youth found that. They really desired a lot of their things taken for granted. And then, you know, went to a series of processes, where we started just sort of reverse course, I was arrested for inciting the murder of the south park, creators, and conspiring in the production of inspire magazine with Samir counter, non-royal, nobody did nagazine that went onto birth. Icies English-language, rations dummies, which have been calling not just for the pipe bomb attacks. But now for million people come in the streets amazing. So tell me now what are we doing now? So you, you change your working with the police who came after you how, how are you what, what is the journal, do you're working on now? So we are in starting a station called terrible networks Miller is, basically, believing rather than as you suggest outlawing speech. We should develop networks that rival in size and stoke the networks that we believe in extremist Jihadist in your clear cut example, that only networks combat on networks. And so we're formulating a Qatar of people that have left extremist movements. We have an organization and a website, light upon Don. It has twenty four seven call in number. We can provide support to individuals that want to leave movements. We published counter speech and one of the most interesting things that we recently did was, we published a reputation of English language jihadi magazines I started. That's where the bed and the Wall Street Journal comes from it looks exactly like his own production. We spent ten days in the secret chat rooms of ISIS adherence leading them, though, that a new magazine was coming to the point where they were promoting magazine for us. And so that when we launched that our bed the magazine product that we created with being disseminated without any knowledge of icy supporters. So now we're picking them apart inside of their own communities in crooked platform state migrated away from Facebook. They've migrated away from Twitter, now, they're on location called telegram. And we're in their dissecting that movement trying to marginalize the voices in that moved in better promoting icy. So this is one of the things we do we provide counseling support individuals that are coming home with terrorism related offenses to protect. Them from society. We do an array of things go around and speak about my experiences, my experiences with the NYPD is director of intelligence officer, Mitch sober. But now works with me show, our stories trained individuals that might be responsible for boarding attempts to terrorist attacks. Get a better understanding of this phenomenon, but most importantly, we promote dialogue and engagement, rather than polarization, and hate and hatred of the other. So we're, we're, we're only year in a couple of months old, we're developing rapidly very happy with what things are moving filler. We have a great support system and counter extremism project, which works diligently to make sure that Facebook is held accountable for its negligence in removing extremist contracts. Twitter's held accountable and social media platforms alad accountable for their removing Scituate particular levels of speech. We come in and we clear up the process by providing the services on the ground that can help individuals change and that can then come back these networks with other networks that rivaled size and scope, but that are built on pro-democratic. Posting lighting made interpretations religion that are very effective in pulling people out of their support, for groups like where, where can people find out more about your Jesse? You have a website light upon done. Online is our core hub or p networks dot org. Is where we house, our marketing in our and our and our main organization, but our activities hosted on light upon like online. It's a website where we have an array of programs and initiatives. And making contact if there will be glad to answer any questions that they have or or provide consultation in any needs services like these, I Jesse Morton, thanks very much for coming on. I really appreciate it. I appreciate you. Having me. Take your thank you speech, combating speech. And, you know, if you can't tell the difference between a guy telling people to kill people, and Ben Shapiro. Dave rubin. If you can't tell the difference between what he really sounds like to the point that they're threatening people's lives, and people who are supporting the constitution and want people to be free. And when babies not to be killed if you can't tell that. The difference you have lost a plot of America. You have lost the plot of the west, you've lost the plot of freedom. They mean to do it. The silencing people is just just makes them stronger. I love that line about the battling networked with networks, final reflection recently. I finished the third another kingdom. The, the final book in the trilogy of another kingdom. It's been a huge experience for me. I mean it's three years is essentially a thousand page novel that took me three years to write. It's probably the last novel, all of a right, or at least the last serious. Prose fiction undertaking. I think I have another book, I want another nonfiction book. I wanna right? But it really has been a huge, huge deal for me. And, you know, obviously, we're going to start to turn it into a podcast and yes, yes, we'll let Michael Knowles read it again. But I got this letter that I just wanna share with you. From a lady named Elissa who? Was in the tropical storm Harvey in south east Texas. And she says our house got seventeen inches of water. My husband two sons a two year old and a one month old and I were trapped in an upstairs room for three days, we were displaced for months, and while we were better off than many of our neighbors, it wasn't easy to help our tiny children cope with such a major upheaval, while still recovering from childbirth. She says it sounds silly to call what happened to me postpartum depression. But that was a major component of my mental state after the flood whatever the cause I was in bad emotional shape. I didn't have anyone to talk to wasn't dealing with as much or more than I was on those. I did talk to urge me to get Medicated which wasn't the path. I wanted to take my relationships deteriorated and I'm ashamed to say, I blamed God from flicking this on our family during what should have been such a happy time shortly before we were able to move back into our house. I started listening to the another kingdom podcast I'm fantasy fairytale junkie. I'd been intrigued by the premise, but I'd been too distracted to check it out. Five minutes into the first. Episode. I was hooked. And it really changed things for me. I would listen while pushing my kids around in the stroller giving all three of us a few moments of peace, I would put my headphones in and listened to an episode as I scrubbed drywall dust off every surface of our house during a time when there seemed to be precious little to look forward to in our daily lives. Another kingdom gave me reason to look forward to Friday identify with Austin lively, in multiple ways and his journey helped me remember who I was and what was important while I figured of literally put my house back in order. I was listening to your interview with Ben about the books and when you said the plot for another kingdom dropped into your head fully formed, it, hit me, like a ton of bricks and conceited enough to believe that one of the reasons God inspired, you to write the story is because he knew I and others like me needed to, to hear it as an aspiring writer. I want nothing more than to bring people closer to God through my writing and another kingdom. Showed me that I can do, so we'll telling a good story. So thank you. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart for being receptive to the spirit of the Lord, is, you wrote the story, I'm so looking forward to season three and have managed to convince my husband to read the. I book now he's a fan too again. Thank you so much for writing another kingdom. Let wisdom rain. She also sent me a follow up emails saying, don't tell Knowles, but he did a great job. So we won't tell them, but he did do a great job. I just I just want to tell you that when I wrote this book this book did drop into my head. I did feel almost ordered to write it. I certainly felt ordered to turn it into a podcast which is not my way, I like to write things and send them off to publishers, and let them deal with that. The fact that I had to do this with me Knowles had to do this together, and then we got help from all our friends here, the daily wire to put it together, but the fact that we sort of did it ourselves to begin with was goes kind of against my grain, not an organizer of not somebody my writer, I stay in a room by myself and write things. But I did it. I remember specifically a day when I went out in prayer, and I was praying, and I said to God, I didn't want to do this. I don't think it's gonna work. I hear you telling me to do it. So I'm going to do it, but it's on you because I think it's gonna be a terrible terrible mash. And it's just going to go out there and disappear without a trace. So if it works, you get all the credit, and if it doesn't work, I don't want to hear about it, because I in the first one, well it has worked tremendously. Well, which should be a lesson to me, hope, and possibly a lesson force all, however, now, the fun is over after plunge you into the Cleveland this weekend. So you, but if you survive I will be back here on Monday forward to talking to you, then I'm Andrew klavan. This is the Andrew klavan show. The Andrew klavan show is produced by Robert Stirling executive producer Jeremy boring, senior producer Jonathan. Hey, our supervising producer is Mathis Glover. And our technical producer is Austin, Stevens, edited by Adam sigh of its audio is mixed by Mike, Corinna hair and makeup is by Jessica Olvera, and our animators are by Sufia, and Google production assistant, Nik Sheehan. The Andrew klavan show is a daily wire production copyright daily wire twenty nine thousand nine hey, guys over on the Matt wall show today, Bernie Sanders says that people would be delighted to pay more in taxes. I think that poor Bernie is a bit confused as as usually seems to be confused, a lot these days, also, we'll talk about the ways that feminism has backfired and harmed women and related to that, we'll discuss the latest feminist outrage surrounding the US, women's soccer team. Apparently in case you didn't know it is sexy. This to criticize female athletes for any candidate for any reason you can't criticize them. So we'll discuss that and other topics today on the Matt, while show.

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Fredericton | CBC Massey Lecture # 3: A Holy Paradox

Ideas

54:46 min | 1 year ago

Fredericton | CBC Massey Lecture # 3: A Holy Paradox

"How do you take down criminal network hidden in the shadows? I tell him that. I know that they're the ones who are running the largest child abuse website on the dark net the journalists working to expose the darkest corners of the Internet. That's your playroom for that's your baby's clothes. That's my house. The police piece who hunt down online predators the environment. They're using no we didn't we didn't make it. They made it hunting. MOORHEAD subscribe wherever you get at your podcasts. This is a CBC DC. PODCAST ISLA IOT welcome to ideas and to the third of the twenty one thousand nine hundred. CBC ABC Massey Lectures All this week. We're bringing you the five talks in the series power shift the longest revolution by claim journalist. Sally are strong on. The facts are beyond dispute when girls and women get an equal opportunity all of society benefits in her twenty nineteen. CBC Massey Lectures. Sally Armstrong talks about the fundamental shift. That has been taking place all around us for centuries and yet equality still alludes half the world's population. Sally Armstrong is an award winning author journalist and human rights activist as journalists. She's reported from some of the most dangerous and broken places in the world but always her. I has been on the plight of women in the stories that women have after tell in this year's. CBC Massey Lectures. She argues that the future of humanity depends on improving the status of women and girls improving approving the lives of the female half of humanity is crucial to our collective future in the past has much to teach us. Sally Armstrong Examines Examines. The many beginnings of the roles women have played in society and what we learn is that gender inequality comes at too high. A cost to all of us us in that the only way forward is for women to become truly equal with men each year. We go on the road. Recording the Massey's in front of a live audience this year. We went along with Sally Armstrong to White Horse Vancouver Fredericton Montreal and Toronto. Today's days talk. The third in the series was recorded in Fredericton. And it's called a holy paradox. Well first of all. I'm absolutely thrilled. That Lieutenant Governor Brendan Murphy. Is here tonight. Great thank you for coming and thank you for what you do your honor and for the rest of you well. This is a homecoming. I love this about as close to going the home I can get. I packed up my cottage on the north shore and left the place in the world that I love the most. I come from a wonderful clan here in New Brunswick Swick wishart's and hurler highs and Steinmetz are my people and in fact I think if we were to ask him to stand up we might create an updraft as for my cottage in the north of the province. And taking a line from song for the Myra I can say that our cottage country is it's a place that if you are broken they'll see that you mend it is such a wonderful place so the Massey lectures well. Tonight's lecture is called Old Holy Paradox on a scale of one to ten. I think it's fair to say that religion and custom concerning women and girls score for a solid eleven for toxic mix. The good news is that the disruption prevalent in the world today is also forcing a new Accounting of holy orders and of cultural contradictions that have prevailed for women for centuries you know that dismissed if and silencing comment comment. This is the way things are done while that doesn't carry so much Clo- today because today ancient rituals and customary habits are being challenged by women who gather the information they need and prepare a case for change and in the process. They're moving on intractable files house like poverty violence like female genital. Cutting like polygamy like honor killing like sexual assault sometimes by Catholic flicked priests. But you know the thing I found in the research for these Massey. Lectures sat through out the Millennia. Come before for women's lives have been marking the way forward since the dawn of civilization and in this lecture we're going to meet. Some of them is the nameless nun who has blue teeth. She busted a long held myth about women. There's an iconic none who defied the clerics and claim that sexual a pleasure was not a sin and should not be associated with guilt. lameda group of girls from Kenya. Who sued their government for failing? Mm to protect them from being raped and we'll meet the splendid women from Mali. Kunda Bambara in Senegal. who were the first to eradicate female genital title cutting and we'll hear from a woman in British Columbia? Who says it freedom of religion does not mean that a man should have twenty seven wives and one hundred in forty nine children and also from a brave young woman in Canada who brought the truth of the Koran to the twenty first century? Let's start with the non with the blue teeth. When the buried facts of her life were were first recorded she was simply known as skeleton? Be Seventy eight or when I began looking into her life skeleton be seventy eight became my roommate practically. Here's what happened was nineteen eighty eighty nine in del High Germany and industrialists have decided. He was going to build himself a shopping center and they began digging in the construction but as they dug deeper they came across a cemetery. And you know there are rules when you come across the cemetery you're obliged to move the graves and of of course the skeletons to a safer place. So they exhumed skeleton be seventy eight tucked her away with the rest of them but the more they dug the more they found there was a bigger story to be had because between nine hundred eighty nine nine hundred ninety two. They came across a a women's monastery right beside the grave. Well one would think that would go with the other. Then they decided they better carbon date one of the skeletons and find find out just what was going on here and out. She came so they found by carbon dating that she lived probably around the year. Nine hundred she died probably between the ages of forty five and sixty and the bizarre thing about her was. She had blue teeth teeth. How does somebody have blue teeth? Well they thought it was probably as you rate causing a blue tinting of the Calculus Tartar. You I know that stuff. That high tuna scrapes off your teeth unmercifully. So they've figured that was as right and the nameless none was stored away. Better story would surface once in a while when an anthropologist got interested in Tartar. Calculus on one's teeth and you know as times changed more women women anthropologist and women. Archaeologists began digging up the past to find out why women's stories were never told so in twenty eleven a professor fester called Anita Dini at York University in England and choose a specialist in calculus. She heard about this none with the blue teeth and she said bring her on. I want to have a look at this. So the positioning of this blue. Something on the nuns calculus suggested it didn't get there era in one shot. It arrived over a period of time. So the method of unraveling mysterious things like this have. I've been improving over the years. And it turned into an anthropological investigation with all the intrigue of who done it. Using Micro Ramen in spectroscopy scientists from a dozen universities in eight different countries began working on this case and eventually discovered they were Lapis Lazuli. That could only have come from Afghanistan but the other thing about Lapis Lazuli was at that time it. It was the rarest and most valuable pigment in the world it was more valuable than gold. So how did a middle aged none. How did she have A rare and valuable pigment in her teeth well. The researchers knew that only highly skilled skilled scribes an art had access to luxurious materials. Such as gold and only in some very rare cases for exceptional purposes says was lapis. Lazuli used well. Many theories were advanced about the none with the blue teeth but only one stood up up and that was that none miss be seventy eight was using her pin dipping it in the Lapis Lazuli touching it to her tongue as we used to with pens and writing the holy tax and descriptors and the books of the day miss be seventy eight was ascribe a bona fide. Woman scribe so it established the historical value of women's women's monasteries and their role in book production. Women were not only literate. They were prolific creators and consumers of books and that was in the year nine hundred. So Skeleton BS seventy eight is it turns out was not the only woman contributing intellectually and socially almost a thousand dozen years ago. Another one I discovered with Hildegard von Bingen and she was a German Benedictine abbess and more than cut an outspoken feminist. Her biographer Charles. Moffett said she was a philosopher theologian singer composer playwright artist architect architect biographer Dr Herb listings owners uneven a saint well her beliefs established her fame. She rejected the church's view of women. As subservient to men and she defied sexist stereotypes of the evil seductress and she taught that women was indeed created in the image and likeness of God. She claimed that God's inner being contains a near erotic mingling of feminine and Masculine elements and that complementary male and female relations mirror a divine balance. This woman was thinking she took on. The teachings of Saint Paul and said woman was not made merely for man and in opposition to Saint Augustine's doctrine. She insisted that sexual pleasure is not sinful and existed in Eden before the fall it particular views about Eve who she believed was more the devils victim than the corrupter of Adam she even argued that menstruation does not render woman unclean which was the give belief is the day but she went on to say that bloodshed hadn't battle does render. A soldier Unclean Hildegard for prime minister. So she and the unnamed none with the blue teeth heath lived at a time when Dogma relegated women to minor and subservient roles you know it was aristotle the man we looked to genius was aristotle who said the female is female by virtue of a certain lack of qualities. We should regard women's nature suffering spring from natural defectiveness. How both that Saint Augustine said? What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother is still eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman I failed to see what women can be? Man If one excludes the function of bearing children really so despite egalitarian preaching of Nuns Lake Hill Hildegard and even the new evidence that a thousand years ago Oh women had greater status than we believed. It's only recently that such rhetoric has been exposed as the misogyny it really is and shedding. This nonsense has become a Gargantuan task. Something akin to miracles. It all goes back to those early religious religious texts. The book of Genesis describes the creation of the first woman this way and the rib which the Lord God had taken from man made he a woman and brought her to the man and Adam said this is now bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh rush. She shall be called woman because she was taken out of man. There are people alive today. That actually believe that because you know misogynists invariably claim that act in the name of God. The Old Testament was the original religious document for Jews Christians and Muslims and it contains some of the most damning versus women. The Apocryphal Book. Ecclesiastic us in a passage but headstrong own daughters underwear. We got that says. Keep a strict watch on her shameless. I do not be surprised if she disgraces you. The New Testament sealed the social destiny of women in Christianity. The sentiment quote wives submit yourself unto your own husbands as it is fit in. The Lord is repeated three times in different books. Pause letter in the Carinthian says women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak but must be in submission as the law says if they want to inquire about something they should ask their own husbands at home for for. It is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the Church holy smokes. You know to be fair to Saint Paul for years. People have disputed those US lines and said Saint. Paul never wrote that. Somebody went into his work and they rewrote it in his name. And this from Timothy. I permit no woman to teach or have authority pretty over a man. She is to keep silent. The Koran and the Torah have similarly discriminating injunctions against women either for inheriting phoning property the tone is also note worthy number of biblical commentary to send Hedren. It says with regard to his mother from where does she have independently owned property that our son can steal the basis for this question is the Halacha that anything. That women acquires is was acquired by her husband. Well you know. The Koran was delivered by God through the Archangel Gabriel to the Prophet Mohammad. Over twenty three years ears. Now promoted women's rights in marriage. Divorce inheritance it prohibited female infanticide and recognized women As four persons the Koran also belittled women it also said men have a status above women. But you know equally offensive ziff remarks have been made by so called holy people right up until today you might remember in the nineties when the redoubtable Southern Baptist leader Pat Robertson was commenting on an Iowa caucus looking for an equal rights amendment for women. And what did he say he said this list. The feminist agenda is not a good equal rights for women. It is about a socialist anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands. Kill their children. Practice witchcraft destroy capitalism and become lesbians. So there you know fifteen hundred years ago the Prophet Mohammed was married to a businesswoman nine hundred years years ago in Baghdad. The home of Islam women owned businesses. Some were doctors at the same time. Islam was the only religion that tolerated the practice of another another religion. So why is it that so many leaders today interpret the Koran so oppressively allowing women to be beaten claiming that their word is worth half a man's word in court and insisting that father said the only legal guardians of children. How does it get to that too often in history women have been condemned as social outcasts and too often? The law has not protected them that that's Sally Armstrong delivering the third of the twenty nineteen. CBC Massey Lectures in Fredericton a holy paradox. You're listening to ideas. He is in Canada on. CBC Radio One on Sirius Xm across North America in Australia on our end and around the world on CBC DOT CA slash ideas. I own the big issue that Sally. The Armstrong is talking about the need for more equitable world for women and girls isn't an issue that's specific to far away places and people. It's relevant right here in in Canada to Stephanie. Dixon is one of the greatest Paralympic athletes in the world born with one hip and leg. She's a nineteen time Paralympic medalist in the pool and Canada's Chef Monsieur for the twenty twenty Paralympic Games. Sally Armstrong spoke with Stephanie. About some some of the challenges of being a woman. Here's an excerpt from their conversation. A lot of studies have been done to show that a girl self esteem and self confidence improve. When she's involved in sport? You start at a very young age met success acid very young age and you are the example of diversity and sport your Paralympic champion. Talk to me about the value of self. Oh for steam and self confidence in a girl. Self confidence in steam should be something that we develop throughout our entire lives but unfortunately for women. It's something that we have to fight for. It's not something that's just a natural part part of the course of our lives. It's like you turn around one day and realize I've actually been unconsciously creating the the opposite of self esteem. It's it's like are worth is attached to our looks or compliments or you know things that are outside of ourselves. And we're constantly seeking taking at external validation and I think as adults we turn around and realize we've been we've been developing our self worth and esteem in the wrong way and I want to change that for young girls. I think many of us want to change that for young girls and to set them down the right path instead of turning around. When you're thirty and having to undo all all of these unhealthy thought patterns that we have so being involved in sport I think is very powerful? It's incredibly powerful to focus on. What your body he can do rather than what it looks like and to be able to set goals and achieve them to recognize that failures a part of life and it can actually be an incredible tool to help us realize what we're capable of however something that we're realizing now there's a huge conversation happening and a big push Bush towards safe sport so it's not just let's have the most participate in sport and then that's it because there's a lot of damage that can be done to two young woman and a young girl self esteem confidence? If in that sport are worth and value is attached to our accomplishments so I think including for me being a part of sport it helped me to overcome a lot of my struggles as a woman with a disability. I felt that I could see. See The beauty in my body and what it could do but my self esteem and self worth was attached to my metals two times so it was halfway there. I was it's halfway dealing with you. Know struggles of self esteem and self worth seeing how powerful body could be however it was not quite the full way there because I I didn't believe I was worthy unless I was winning so I think that sport is so key to learning about what strengthened beauty is if if it's done in the right way if we know as women that we are strong and powerful and worthy regardless of if we are coming first or second or last last Sally Armstrong in conversation with nineteen time. Paralympic medalist Stephanie. Dixon will be playing more of that conversation in a special program program when we broadcast the Massey lectures again in spring twenty twenty and now back to a holy Paradox Sally Armstrong with the third third of the twenty one thousand nine hundred. CBC Massey Lectures Power Shift the longest revolution between twenty twelve and twenty eighteen. And I had the extraordinary opportunity to follow a story in Kenya about one hundred and sixty girls between the ages of three and seventeen who were suing their government in Kenya for failing to protect them from being raped. How do you like that? The case began. It was really from mayor route. which is the place about four hours north of Nairobi? But it was human rights lawyers women in Nairobi that took on the case but they called Canadian women human rights lawyers because they said Canada is the only country where the women have sued the government for failing to protect them and one and is true. You might remember. It was the case of the balcony rapist. It happened in Toronto and a rapist was entering women's apartments through their balcony in one neighborhood and raping them well. The police caught down to his actions for you quickly. And they set up their dragnet they figured out its modus operandi Diane and they set a trap for him and indeed. He went into a woman's apartment through her balcony and he raped her. They caught him. They caught him that night but she sued them because she said you had no business using my body for your trap so when she stood them she one and that was a precedent setting case that whipped around the world and women's circles to say the Canadian women's suit their government for failing to protect them and they want so Canadian lawyer. Fiona Sampson who runs an organization called the equality effect. Was the one the Nairobi women called and they said will you help us and FYONA said yes. We'll help you. This is how we won that case and we can come over and help you win yours. And that was an odyssey of three years that was absolutely extrordinary to what they won the case and when they want they want it for fifteen million girls in Kenya but the day Newmont that I want to share with with you in these Massey lectures because when you win a case that size if you do nothing you might as well not have gone to court. What they realized they had to do was the head to retrain train the judiciary in Kenya retraining judges and lawyers and very difficult but imagine how are you going to retrain the police you've got you gotta have amazing experience yourself? You've got to be very sensitive. But it's going to take a bag of money to go out and retrain a police force so who stepped up to the plate to do that or the sexual assault department of the Vancouver Police Force. They sent officers over to Kenya and and they started a train. The trainer program well last March police from Vancouver. Were then going to turn over the training to the Kenyan police but at the same time these hundred and sixty girls were launching what they call justice clubs and they launched them that day and twelve high schools singing dancing debating. But what they were doing was boys and girls together discussing the need to make change discussing sexual actual assault discussing rape discussing the consequences of pregnancy. When you're a teenager and together these kids were moving forward? They were victims victims for sure. These girls suffered terrifically but what they did was. They went where their big sisters didn't dare to go. And they did with their mothers others and they're aunties and they're granny's didn't dare to do and they became their own agents of change fifteen years earlier in Senegal. My goal a group of women the women of Malady Kunda Bambara who call themselves Amazon women. They took a similarly daring step for change for women when they were the first to eradicate female genital cutting but now the World Health Organization called for what it is. It's rooted engender inequality and it's an attempt to control a women's sexuality quite apart from the fact that it is brutal and it is not cultural. It is criminal so today. More than two hundred million girls and women in thirty countries in north and west and east Africa as well as the Middle East and Asia have undergone this circumcision but the numbers are plummeting in East Africa. Seventy one point four percent of girls and women were being circumcised in one thousand nine hundred ninety five and today. It's eight percent in North Africa. The number dropped from fifty seven point seven percent in nineteen ninety ninety two fourteen point one percent in two thousand fifteen and in West Africa went from seventy three point six percent in nineteen ninety six to twenty five the point four percent in two thousand seventeen. The girls are winning. You know I remember when I met with these women. These courageous women. They built a little one room meeting house. They painted yellow. It was in that space that they spoke for the first time about the rituals that they had gone through through the same ritual that their mothers and their grandmothers had gone through and in this tiny space. A centuries old silence was broken broken. Most of the women had questioned the procedure but none dared to voice her concerns after all. How could it be wrong? If the village leaders there's if the imams if if the mothers and daughters who came before them had accepted this ritual as a rite of passage to becoming a proud Amazon woman. Well eventually those women had to look at how this had begun and they went to the mom and they said show us in the holy elitebook whereas written that. We should do this and the MOM said I can't find it in the holy book. It's not a religious thing. It's a custom awesome. So they went to the village chief and they said. Tell us why we do this. This is a custom that is hurtful to our women. Why why? Why is this custom something we are going to have and the village chief said why thought it was religious? So the women women of Molly Kunda Bambara Band together and they took a public pledge. They said never again not my daughter within two weeks sixty more more villages followed and by the year's end half of the villages in Senegal had banned the practice and today there's only a few villages left to do that you know customary procedures that harm women. Girls are slowly being eliminated. The world over remember footbinding and China. I mean it went on and on on and by the way it meant that you fold the big toe over you fold the arch of the foot in half breaking the arch and then you wrap that foot put in tight. Tight bindings were diplomats and visiting health experts had tried and tried and tried to stop foot binding in China but at the end of the eighteen hundreds it was a small group of women who came together and they formed what they called the healthy foot society and they talked about why woman should have healthy feet but what they did that was key was they said it took an oath they said I I will never bind my daughter's feet and I will never allow my son to marry a girl whose feet are bound and in less than a dozen years. That terrible terrible procedure was over. You know there's evidence the world over that women are banding together to attack and stop these harmful customs and promote changes in in religious and cultural practices. But I have to say old practices still turn up like mold and one of them mm would be an it's about. The oldest atrocity is honor killing and it still going on today and although the practice is usually associated with the slum it has been practiced also by Christian certainly in ancient Greece and Rome where daughters were condemned to death at that time to protect a family's Honor they were simply considered worthless. Infanticide was legal until the year. Three hundred seventy four but today throughout the Middle East I north Africa Pakistan Afghanistan honor killing is an unholy family alliance that allows a woman to be murdered to rid her family of shame. It keeps women in fear are of their lives those in favor of such a law. Say It's about your honor and shame. Well it's not about control an abuse. There's nothing honorable book bashing your daughter over the head and Stuffing Ping her body down a well because she spoke to a boy down the street. This is femicide. This is the killing of women and you know women in these places they can they can be killed by. The family and we know has also happened in Canada and the United States. You can be killed by your family. Beaten burned strangled shot stabbed for any old reason dating the wrong man being raped refusing to submit to the will have her father and brothers. A man can easily get rid of his wife simply because he wants to marry another woman doesn't want to go through the besmirching merging of divorce so simply says I saw her with another man and she's killed off like a cow that hasn't produced milk. In some countries. Honor killing is legal in others. There's barely any punishment for the perpetrators Jordan. A man who's female relatives is found guilty of committing adultery is exempt from punishment if he kills her Jordan those practices and those people who practice honor killing invariably. There's a cover up involved. She fell down the well. She was mugged in the park. She went out with criminals. If it's not against the law why do you lie about it. Well in December of nineteen ninety nine I talked to the chief coroner of the Palestinian Authority in East Jerusalem. His name is Dr Jalal Al Jabri. He told me he sees plenty of corpses that all the markings of honor killing but he hardly ever sees a case in which honor killing is listed as the official cause of death he said in our culture everybody knows but nobody says I get cases that say the cause of death is a firearm injury. I know inside what really happened. But what can I do. I signed the certificate and say bye bye that what a cowardly response to a perfectly vile act. Dr Algebra is an enlightened and Palestinian intelligent man who said he was strongly against honor killing but the tone changed when I asked him about his own family only is five boys and three girls and I said to him. What if one of your girls got pregnant? He was a guest. He said that could would never happen. She knows she must never have sex. A girl cannot be pregnant or sexual relations. She must understand what would happen so I asked him again. What would he do? He said. I don't know you know. This is a classic example of the internalisation of patriarchy. The fear of shame of being held up as an example of a failed man who cannot control his women. Even even as you know it's morally wrong to kill your daughter. The pressure to conform is so great that you ignore your own conscience. It's politics are never far from the obsession with the purity of women. Google and apple were in the news recently because they couldn't couldn't control an issue that was on the minds of all the women in Saudi Arabia. They uploaded an APP that allows Saudi Arabian men to monitor monitor. The movement of their mothers are sisters their wives and their daughters the absence and alert to the man if the woman uses her passport uses loses. Her phone uses her credit card. It's known as sheer by the way and the APP was developed by the Saudi Ministry of the Interior to provide access to government services such as passport renewal and driving licenses. But it also tracks the women which is legal in Saudi Arabia because the kingdom mm-hmm claims that men are there custodians. Well Human Rights Watch and others including the women of Saudi Arabia cried foul but but in February twenty nineteen Google and apple announced they would not remove the Saudi government APP because it is legal in the country entry where it was created. I say shame on you. It's astonishing isn't it what people get away with when money is changing changing hands that guardianship system has helped create some of the most gender unequal countries in the Middle East because to disobey is to die honor. Killing is part of a religious code. And that's the thing about unchecked religion and custom for centuries they've been used to justify the sidelining headlining the marginalizing the abusing and even the killing of women. And it's not just over there. We have plenty of examples right over here. I'm thinking of actually a sect of the Mormon Church called the Fundamentals Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints better known shortly known as F. L. D. S. and they've been using and abusing women in the name of God for a century. It dates back to one thousand nine hundred four when the Mormon Women Church outlawed polygamy well the members of the F.. LDS refused to relinquish the practice claiming it follows the teaching of the Book Uh of Mormon and the only way for a man to survive. The apocalypse is through abundant reproduction through plural marriage to the youngest. I the prettiest and the smartest women available ever heard that before. So today they have about ten thousand followers in in Utah Arizona Texas Colorado South Dakota Alberta and British Columbia under the guise of freedom of religion. This is clinging clinging to the tenants that that defy both human rights and civil law. It includes underage marriage sex with minors trafficking and child brides because they move them back and forth between Utah and British Columbia to fix the gene pool and the collection of child tax credits on hundreds of kids. Imagine when you have twenty five kids you twenty-five checks every month so in nineteen eighty-eight Debbie Palmer. She's a girl who was taken into this religious it just sect by her parents when she was two years old and she was married off at the age of fifteen to a fifty five year old man and when I met her she had decided decided to blow the whistle on all of them the bishops the followers the husband's even the Attorney General of British Columbia. She argued that the holy vows that the F.. LDS Men take are not about sex for salvation. which in itself is a bit disgusting but sex for breeding cheap labor labor? She told me she'd been married. Three times commend with multiple wives. And as a result she has eight children seventy six stepchildren. Children Forty seven brothers and sisters and three ex-husband's she's now realized. I am my own step. Great Grandmother Difficult to fathom how a country like Canada or even the US would allow such partnerships in the name of God and in September of two thousand seven finally the head of this sect in the United States a man called Warren Jeffs went to jail because he was found guilty of sexually assaulting his twelve year old and fifteen year old child brides and he was given life in prison but in bountiful onto full British Columbia Winston blackmore. He just kept getting away with his twenty four wives and one hundred forty nine children and he keeps breeding chart art on the wall. So he knows who is oscillating which night and who to have sex with just imagine that you know even. The pope has finally acknowledged after decades of being silent. There are priests who've been sexually assaulting parishioner some of them children and some of them nuns for all of these years if history examined civilization by the way it treated women. It's likely we would have a very different outcome for women and girls today. Day every civilization from the Sumerians to the Greeks the Romans from primitive to tribal space-age has devised a plan and a place for women. We've been goddesses mothers concubines. Harlot slaves feminists upstarts disruptors. Women have worn labels for thousands of years but the struggle to shed the monikers and to gain our right to freedom of speech sexuality and movement and to control their own bodies and choose our own careers and pave our own way has never been far beneath the surface. These other the women I encountered when I was doing the research for the Massey lectures and I could hear their clarion call for change in the status quo. That goes back ten thousand years. They make me think of the women of Afghanistan who I've been following as a journalist for two decades talk about an example of the toxic mix of these two facets of humanity ancient tradition and religion have away of complicating matters but politics. I have a way of confounding them when I met the women of Afghanistan just after the Taliban took over in September twenty six in one thousand nine hundred ninety six. I couldn't believe leave my is. They were the epitome of a human rights catastrophe and yet the world was looking the other way you know. Burqas were worn born and in the rural areas of Afghanistan but urban women were not wearing work and all of a sudden. You had to wear work. You couldn't leave your home unless you were in the company of a husband brother or son you had to wear wedge shoes because the Taliban didn't like the sound of the tap tap tap of a women's hi heel television was forbidden. They weren't allowed to sing or listen to music. Clapping was absolutely forbidden so was loud laughter. I remember the first time I went to Afghanistan. Women weren't allowed to wear white socks because it was the color of the Taliban flag. But the next time I went the rule oh had changed now. A women couldn't wear socks because they were sexually promiscuous White Sox tell you it never worked for me. But what's worse is if a woman was caught in St doing anything that the vice and virtue the police didn't like they whipped her with three twisted wires. Little girls were told that their dolls were un-islamic that the only image that was allowed out with the image of the Prophet and little girls were instructed to throw their dollies into a bonfire. This was a time when we could land an astronaut on the Moon we could cure many cancers we could send messages via cyberspace but this was going on in Afghanistan and the country quickly quickly sank into the dark ages and the women became a wholly paradox women deemed un-islamic were carted off to the soccer stadium to be stoned. I'm to death all around me. I saw women under siege and as women always do they pour the green tea. They tell you what it happened. They make sure you got it right but then the conversation always turns to their kids and their kitchens and that they could bits. It's about the craziness going on in their lives. After nine eleven the American military and their NATO allies invaded the country as we well know they got rid of the Taliban they expose the catastrophic conditions for women and they went to work at making change and every time I returned I saw more. We're change the schools. Were Opening Women. Were back at work to hateful vice. In virtuous squad had vanished and the Burqa clad women were emerging. I'm from their cocoons as if like butterflies for the next thirteen years. The women wrote a new future for themselves and the government as members of parliament and cabinet ministers and governors and the universities as professors and students in business entrepreneurs in the arts as designers. I I interviewed a young woman. who was a conductor of Symphony Orchestra? And in the sports they were rugby players. An extreme cyclists and hang gliders all all of them women then the international community left in twenty fourteen and the Taliban along with half a dozen other insurgents tested the soft underbelly of the fledgling Afghan military but Afghans continued to go to school and to work and to coke with the gridlock traffic and their city streets but a new fear had hit their lives and it came in the form of suicide bombers summer and rocket propelled grenades exploding in public places people around the world starting to think it was an armed camp and it was the place that no one should dare to go and it was a lost cause. Well you know despite those facts and I was there only a year ago the truth is but Afghan people have. I've never had it so good. Life expectancy has increased from forty seven years to sixty two years and maternal mortality has dropped by seventy I five percent nine point. Six million children are back in school and almost forty percent of those are girls so many times times women have staggered up to the barriers of change and found a way to storm through the opening and yet ancient believes that baby girls are worthless list or that women bring shame to the family. These have infected. Even the twenty-first century history tells us that those thoughts have been embedded embedded in our psyche since the dawn of civilization but also they're embedded right beside those patriarchal thoughts have been women's ideas about about how to right. The wrongs forcing a truth telling finding ways to share their stories eventually. Their message for the need for change was taken up by the men and that is the way we will reach a finish line when men and women decide to work together together on the suffrage movement began at series of successes. It was the beginning of the fall of the old presumptions about women in power however religious doctrine prevailed with carefully crafted messages about hearth and home. That good women wanted to be there. Baking the pies and tending the toddlers that women who went to work for selfish and didn't care about their husbands or their kids I mean during the first World War and even the Second World War with women picked up the hose and kept the farms going and they went to work in the factories for munition factories when the men and a few women left if for war it wasn't until well into the twentieth century that women began to shed the shackles of religious based laws and customary beliefs. That had kept them away from professions. Kept them off. Juries kept them out of the paid workforce but religion continues to be a powerful presence in the lives of women today and in some places. It's having a resurgence particularly in post communist countries like Croatia Poland Hungary or where the Catholic church is gaining traction on with conservative causes and denying reproductive rights and the right of LGBTQ Citizens Farida Shaheed was the former Special Rapporteur at the United Nations on Cultural Rights. And she says don't kid yourself. Religion has not withered away. The issue is who does the interpretation. She says religious faith is the least problematic as custom is the bigger problem but what is politics it becomes the most problematic religion is being harnessed to further political agendas. Her research around the world show does some intriguing trends. She says it's often not just religious groups who use religion for power it's used for alliances across the board very very conservative agendas. Many of these agendas are written in government offices. Not In mosques you know today. Women are speaking at home in the village square at the water cooler in the officed and publications. They're speaking in ways. They have never spoken before this. One Young Woman called Sabah's Sajad has she's a lawyer in Ontario. She's also a member of the National Board of the Canadian Eating Council of Muslim women and the winter of twenty nineteen. She decided it was time to speak her truth about polygamy. She wrote an open letter to her. Her sisters in a slam and this is shortly edited version of that letter. She says the practice of polygamy is inherently harmful two women and children it must be stopped women are being told to accepted as their religious duty and that it is mandated by our faith. That is not true. My advice be yourself. You are in charge of who you are. You are not what happened to you. You are not a product you are not a commodity you are not your father's honor. You are a blessing from Allah. You are not your husband's honor you or your husband's equal companion and confidante. Oh you are not your brother's honor. You are equal to your brother. You have an equal right to education and your family's resources you are not your son's son's honor you are your son's life source reclaim your identity. Don't let others dictate your purpose. Don't let them decide. Hide your worth or your contribution spiritually quality. Is Your God given right. Well this is a change but there are other changes. That are very upfront for women today. Speaking of having control over your own body activists have been shadow-boxing with political cultural L. and religious forces for decades to sort out the consequences of controlling your own body and exercising your right to decide. What's good for you you know? It's been suggested that women want to toss all traditions and customs into the ditch along with religion set of served them badly. But that's not true. Women in fact are usually the keepers of the keys when it comes to custom and they're not more devote men than there are women and when it comes to religion. I recently read a tweet. It was written by a man in Afghanistan. He was responding to a piece. I had penned and in the globe and Mail about the detrimental effect on the women and girls Afghanistan because of a Taliban. US peace talk in the absence of the Afghan government. Well he said you were a hypocrite. You have no regard for the religion or the country. Oh you care about is the women. Yup that'd be right. His accusation reminded me of that famous quote from Sarah Grim Key and abolitionist and feminist from South Carolina. Her father was an attorney and a judge and she wanted to pursue the same career but he forbade her in eighteen eighteen thirty seven she wrote. I ask no favors for my sex. I surrender not our claim to equality all all I ask of our brethren is that they will take their feet from off our necks and permit us to stand upright on the ground which God designed us to occupy one hundred and eighty two years later the iconic. US Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader GINSBURG repeated those words in the opening of the documentary our BG that hails her as a cultural icon and hero for justice and for women. She she said all I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet from off our neck. Thank you it thank you. You've been listening to a holy paradox. The third of the twenty nineteen CBC Massey lectures by Sally Armstrong Straw recorded at the playhouse theatre in Fredericton. You can listen to the entire lecture series at our website. CBC DOT CA Slash Massey's or or download the podcast from our CBC. Listen at your local bookseller. We'll also have the book of the Lectures Power Shift the longest revolution published by House of an NC press. You should also check out our website. CBC DOT CA Slash Massey's. It's full of background information about this year's lectures as well as information and audio excerpts from all electric going right back to nineteen sixty one that's all at CBC dot Ca da Slash Massey's and now that you've been listening to the lectures. We're inviting you to send us the questions you have for Sally Armstrong. We'll be creating a special program to run with the rebroadcast of the series in March. Twenty twenty I'll be talking with south will hear parts of the audience discussions from the tour as well as the conversations. She had on the road and I'll be asking her some of the questions. You send us so send your questions to Massey questions at CBC dossier that's Massey questions at CBC dot ca our partners in the Massey Lecture series are Massey College in the University of Toronto Santo and House of an NC press. The Massey Lecture series is produced by Philip Coulter online production by SINISA geolog- Lisa. You so is. The web producer of ideas and our technical producer. Is Danielle develop. Nikola look she is the senior producer the executive the producer of the Massey. Lectures and ideas. Is Greg Kelly and I. I am for more C._B._C.. PODCASTS GO TO C._B._C. Dot C._A. Slash podcasts.

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Shahidul Alam - Politics Cannot Be Separated from My Art

B&H Photography Podcast

1:08:36 hr | 1 year ago

Shahidul Alam - Politics Cannot Be Separated from My Art

"You're listening to the H.. Photography podcast for over forty years being H has been the professional source photography video audio and more for your favorite Robert Gear News and reviews visited dot com or download the beach up to your iphone or android device. Now here's your host. Alan White's greetings things and welcome to the beach. Photography podcast our guest today as shah dual allom. He of course is a photo journalist. He's also the founder of a photo agency a photo academy and a photo festival in his native Bangladesh. He's a writer and educator writer activist and one of time magazines persons of the year for two thousand thousand eighteen. This time they got right show Dulas in New York to celebrate an exhibit of his photography at the Rubin Museum of Art. The show Schaja allom truth to power open on November eighth and will run until May fourth twenty twenty. It's a wonderful exhibit and provides a glimpse into his four decade career. We also I WANNA thank the Rubin Museum for inviting us to see the exhibit and we also welcome our second guest. Dr Lawrence Walsh Repeat Guest. Lorne is an author and a scholar. Her latest book is conversations on conflict. Photography a powerful exploration of public responses to photographic coverage of war and humanitarian crises. In the book she profiles none other than our guest today shadow alarm as well as many other photographers. And Editors Walsh also runs the photo journalism lab at the Nyu Gallatin School of individualized study and is director of lost roles America a National Archive of Photography and memory which he discussed is with us on a previous show. Welcome back okay. Before we start a little bit of background. China was born and raised in Dhaka. Bangladesh he studied in Liverpool Report and earned a PhD in chemistry from London University. All while taking up a newfound hobby photography he returned to Bangladesh in one thousand nine hundred four with the goal of using his photographic and public speaking skills to cover protest movements and advocate for social justice in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine. He helped to establish the award-winning DRIK. Picture Library and majority World Picture Agency and later the Path Shala South Asian Media Institute and Jobe Mila International National Photography Festival. His photographs have been published in the New York. Times Time Magazine and National Geographic and he's exhibited at the Museum of Modern Art the tate modern and the Pompidou Centre his book. My journey as a witness has been described as being the most important book ever written by a photographer. He's the recipient of Lucie Award and she'll Piccolo Award which is the highest cultural award given to Bangladeshi artists as well as the only person of color to have chaired the prestigious international jury of world. Press photo it is an honor to have you here on our show today. Delighted to be here. My first ARISS question is in. I'm opening this of the both of you. What are some concrete steps that could protect journalists from the kind of repercussions of free speech? That you've suffered or in order or to ensure that any detained journalists gets the attention needed to grant their release. I think what happened is a very clear indicator of what can be done Before I was arrested several very high profile people had been arrested in Bangladesh or sent abroad and exile title made ineffective in other ways and gotten gotten away with it in my case suddenly hold world protested tested. They were protesting the streets and people in Bangladesh to greater risk. It was more dangerous for them. I think the fact that you can mobilize people at that level. The the the public solidarity and that international networking is very much part of the resistance. But somebody who doesn't quite have the high the profile filed that you might Is it fair to say that. They're not going to get that kind of attention. And therefore they the release the came or is this something that Absolutely true I think which is why. I think sure we as photographers do what we do. But building those networks is part of the strategy. The one has to have if if one has made a choice of becoming an activist one is going to walk through through power. You recognize that they will be powerful enemies that he will pick up up along the way as we need to learn how to use a camera how to use words we also need to be able to recognize that that part of social activism listen is part of the deal sets up needed I think it also just goes beyond journalism. I think the public needs to better better understand the value of journalism. So that when we hear the President United States responding to legitimate legitimate reporting calling get fake news. We need to push back against that I mean the committee to Protect Journalists among other organizations has tracked and his telling us that imprisonments are at record highs and I think we have to listen to this and learn from other things also helped today my facebook will yesterday my facebook account got hacked. And it's something that's been happening when I got arrested. The police got hold of my laptop my mobile phones and they had access assist to all my social media. I be able to recover most of them twitter. Sadly of not Perhaps they can cont- intervene here but it's there are told. There's an active team dedicated to hacking me constantly. So you need to counter at many levels on really have a much broader brought a team working before going real quick just backup. We're talking about that. You were arrested Two thousand eighteen. Could you give the background of what led up to your arrest and what you were ceiling. Who'd you take off on the twenty ninth of July two students meme on Raji Were run over by bus force. It very sad but what it led to was a countrywide protests. And I feel it was because we were on a tinderbox People were enraged with the corruption nepotism with repression the looting of the banks all the things that are going going on and this is a spot that led to it now. People get hit by blesses every day in what was different about this event. It wasn't so much that it it was different. It was a that it happened when it did and be the response. The the minister lofted off He said exactly sent people get run over every day. What's the big deal? And that was really the thing that lit That enraged the people but what happened in return was actually very very interesting. The students took to policing the streets. I'm brought order into streets that we've never for had ordering. They found that ministers. Were driving around with unlicensed vehicles Policemen went around. Who didn't have driver's licenses? Awesome things like that and what they did was they ensured that ambulances got through. VIP's didn't if they didn't have the right authorization and they pointed pointed fingers to the government in the sense that if untrained students in the streets with zero resources can run the streets. Well what Mrs Got Mentoring so I was reporting on that and then the gut macaques turned violent. They started attacking the students. I was documenting that too. So that's when I got attacked on the fourth of August I got beaten. My Pin smashed up I continued reporting on the fifth of August. Two thousand eighteen. I gave an interview to Sarah. I was at that time alone in the flat talking to the BBC because because I was going to do a report for them falling day The doorbell rang. I answered the door and suddenly hold talk about. I don't really know but I'm told that around thirty security people came in. I know what happens in my luggage on because I was was alone in the flat. I want to make sure that I didn't go quietly so I made as much noise as I could. I resist it as much as I could. And perhaps that those extra minutes. It's that I gained was what saved my life. You're talking about being on facebook at that point and we were just talking about these out ideas of what about this idea of pressuring these giant organizations twitter as you mentioned and facebook to to do their part to ensure the safety give journalists that are using their platforms completely. I mean I think they are not only social media platforms their publishing platforms today And therefore they can be used used and abused and they are abused. What for me is very worrying is what I hear the fact that our government have relationships with some some of these big organizations where they are allowed the back door so in our case it's particularly worrying because very recently there's been these reports through Pegasus that activists have actually been targeted using surveillance technology? And this is one of my bones of contention. I mean wild. We have governments which talked about freedom and democracy. It's the same governments out of selling surveillance technology to my government which is preying on activists. Obviously it's alive question right now especially with facebook. Will they at some point down the road be legally responsible for user generated content because they are just a platform they are a publisher as well. I mean I think until then the cyber training for journalists is incredibly important because harassment. It happens And there aren't really there are organizations that are putting together guidelines and standards like echoes alliance. But there aren't a lot of there aren't international standards for cyber security standards it we can take a step backwards a little bit I wanted to ask a bit about your education and training in the hard sciences And maybe you can give a little bit of background on how that transition happened into photography. And where in your life at that point. The Role of activism played but Is there anything from that training that that you've kept with you all these years That affects or enables you photography or or something you utilize photojournalist. There's two segments to question. I'll split them up the first about how it happened. I'm from amid glass. Home and young men from middle class. Homes are expected to get respectable professions. which at least according to my parents outcasts a My Mom's proud doctors engineers lawyers whatever you know been. My mum discovered. I was going to be a photographer of a bride for a main concern mother. Why the same concerns so You know that's through so I got into university getting into united studied biochemistry and genetics at Liverpool University then I started my PhD Organic Chemistry. But while I was doing that I got involved with the Socialist Workers Party and it was while I was with them that I began to be the involved in race rights gay rights inequality issues and a whole range of things which were about social justice and at that time it was the political SOLIDARNOSC Movement for the Liberation of Poland. And I could see how they were using images to maximum effect and I thought hey this as a tool yeah I began to think does does Bangladesh need yet. Another research chemist. But I thought with a camera I could probably chief something something that would bring about a change so that was my conscious decision about doing what I was doing. And you but your thoughts always worked to go back to Bangladesh regardless of how easily. Yeah completely I mean that's home that continues to be my home. I'm out on bail. I still face potential jail sentence fourteen years. But that's where I'm GONNA go I have the options that But in terms of what it does I think it's not so much the the technical skills that you learn but the process the fact that you recognize problem solving that you have an Ireland ethical. Approach that you can deconstruct truck to situation reduce it to elements that are needed. You can identified the weak links you can identify the rate limiting steps. Those zero standard parameters that apply across the board on Education always has a value. What was your contact with Bangladesh while you're overseas And basically getting your education and everything else. How often do you go back? And did you monitor. It was going on it. 'cause there's something to be said about being able to step back look at the situation more globally but there's also value to be right up front and looking at it from a macro point of did you have a good balance or was it just hunch haunch. I didn't have a good balance. I'd left home when I was seventeen And this was before into that And I certainly didn't have the money to go back home in between so I he's working my way through. I was working as a laborer day. Labor trying to find my way through university but of course lettuce still existed and I stayed in touch watch what was very important for me was the fact that I been through this war of liberation and they were these people back there who had left behind I knew what so many people had sacrificed their lives for a pseudo. There was that hunger to go back and play my role. I stayed in touch obviously in whatever way I could but there was a gap. There were very very important. Transition is and because of that gap when I came back in nineteen ninety four and discovered that a general had taken over my country. I thought this is not the country we fought for on. It was imperative for me to bring it back back story that the camera that you first started shooting with with something you bought for a friend and is obviously I mean. This was while I was at university. Freddie Laker introduced Laker Airways. which is the budget airline You could get a flight from London to New York on what they call the sky train for ninety pounds. I thought you know I'm a poor student. This is my chance to go to the United States so I was about to buy that ticket and this friend of Mine Not University said the Dole is low the. US IS A good place to buy cameras. Why did you buy me one so I turned up? This was before being h I still found the cheap shops which sell good days and cameras coverage so I bought a new slogan. Sorry so I bought an the Nikkei fem a rickety tripod a flash cut deeping by an attempt. I hitched round the united. Those were the days. You could still each ser. So I hitched around the United United States and Canada took some pictures with me. I came back to London. My Mate didn't have the money to pay for the camera sites that I was very happy accident. I'd say Jason say so we're elements so learn. You written a book conversations on conflict photography and and so he is One of the people you profile. Can you maybe speak a little bit about the conversations that you had and maybe distinguish it a bit from some of the other photographers that you spoke to For the book. Sure so the book. It's a series of interviews with this photographers. Who've covered conflict around the world and then photo editors and then also I did interviews with major human rights and humanitarian organisations because they're leading funders and distributors distributors of Conflict Imagery in terms of distinguishing? The perspectives I mean. It was very important to me to have a diverse breath of voices in the book. I mean really what I wanted to do was give voice to the people who make and distribute this kind of imagery and I wrote a few essays that contextualized I realize it but I was looking at it from a an American or western point of view and thinking about how do we respond to images as of crisis or suffering war that come to us from far away so I wasn't looking at domestic conflicts And I with that in mind is the the history of photo. Journalism is more male the not and more Western than not so. This book was very conscious in saying. I WANNA speak with male and female practitioners. I WANNA be. I WANNA have western and non Western voices so the the anecdotes and experiences that the photographers relate late They carry some of these differences with them. I can speak to Shahidullah about what does it mean to be a local photographer. And what what were your experiences when you talk to me about the cyclone and what happened with coverage for New York Times And then I would ask similar questions of American carvers carvers to say. Well what does it mean for you to fly to somewhere in Africa. Document a famine or war so it was each interview is distinguished insofar as it. What is the role of conflict imagery from that one person's experiences and perspectives and because everyone brings is a different perspective? You get these. It's really a polyphony of voices and experiences and I I spoke to people who've been covering for up to forty years so it's kind of also also a history of the world Inside three hundred pages and and is it fair to say that we are seeing. Maybe a change toward toward A photo journalism that that that respects the locals who are doing you know who actually involved with the the event Previously photographers might have been flown in to cover Or is that something that still needs a lot of work. I think if we look back over the decades they're absolutely more more local photographers. Who are working? And there's a number of reasons for this The gear is is not as hard to get. We also have the rise of Citizen Journalism which opens a whole set of questions because then are you trained in the same journalistic standards that had news? Doing audience would expect. I still think there's a definite imbalance In terms of especially and Shahidul and I were talking about this who has the ability to get there. Let's say images for talking sheriff you images out through some of the most powerful media entities in the world I mean I think some of the wire services are working a lot more with local photographers but then that it opens a whole set of questions of Local photographers face greater risks. Any precautions if you have an American passport for you can leave a country if things go really wrong. It's a lot harder if you're the local Afghani photographer or the local Mexican photographer. uh-huh so I yeah I think there have been many strides forward and I think there's still quite a bit of work to be done that same note. Do you find that your experiences overseas with higher education and exposure to Europe and the United States is helping you go back now as opposed to somebody of equal skill to you who's never left Bangladesh. Who doesn't have the worldliness that you do have of course I think it's I'm here talking to you on today. Because of some of those connections there are perfectly competent. Great photographer out there is work is never been seen scene. One of the things we've done is built an archive and within that collected the work of great photographers whose work should be known and What many people do not know about for instances that the war of liberation of nine hundred seventy one was not only a seminal event in terms of world history but also seminal event in terms of welfare graphic history? The crates of photojournalism. Were there Mary Ellen. Mark David Bernez Don mcallen Bruno. BARBADE dipoto Ruggeri Abbass. Rashid thought GA percents. They ruled that yet. It's this typically collection of that work. There's never been an exhibit until we began collecting it. The this had never been assimilated and that has has many reasons. I mean I'm cynical. It's an at times and I think got independent at the wrong time. Gone Independence on the sixteenth of December. which it was just too close to Christmas? Well I mean in the middle of a war in Southeast Asia. Obviously you know this is before for the Internet digital and analog days page spreads and things are set up and it takes a lot of doing to dislodge Christmas. That's can we talk a little bit about but but the drik picture picture the library and and when you realize that was something that was kind of fundamental to the to the purpose that you were going for as opposed to just taking your own pictures and doing your best to get them out there. I I was having a show in Belfast And I was staying with friends in newry. which is a town close to Belfast? And they they didn't have big house. Oh so they had a little daughter Karina five year old And Corinna went to mom and dad's room to make room fun culture heater so I'm there I come in from the show one day and empty my pockets putting some coins on the table and Corinna standing in the doorway usually she runs up to me jumps to my op. We tell each other stories but that day she just stood there and I said what's the matter Carina. She says you got money. I said yes. Got Money and goes but but you're from Bangladesh. She could make it fit and got me thinking about the sort of social political cultural space within which a five year old throws up wishes incapable of seeing a Bangladeshi as anything other than an icon of poverty. And I got to think you know it has to do with who controls the narrative And there is this beautiful African expression. Rico's something like until the lions find their storytellers stories. Stories about hunting will always glorify hunter. I thought well it's about time the lines found storytellers. And I knew by. Then I'd work with with agencies overseas and I knew how the dissemination worked and I thought okay. We need to build up an agency but we decided not to open open it in the conventional spaces of Paris London New York but to set it up in Bangladesh. Because that's where photographers were. But they were challenges. Alan just to go with art as well as I say this way before internet or whatever so what. Many people don't realize we introduced email to Bangladesh in the early nineties. Because we having decided we would be in the backwaters. We then needed that light line. So we actually introduced email and built a south-south at south but globally through which could disseminate our oil. Okay we spoiled. We are definitely spoiled. Uh I was going through Lawrence Book and the Texas Amazing and the photographs are very very powerful. And you've been working on this project for about ten years now and you're looking at a lot of photographs of conflict and they're not always pretty and I'll open this question. Both of you have these pictures effect. You have to well you have to step back because it could really become powerful to look at this stuff. I just sitting here going through the book for ten minutes. I was moved. Good ways and bad ways you live with this. Do you need to take breaks from it. Or how do you process. All of us So the book was for years. But I've been working in this time on on this topic. Broadly conflict photography for about ten Yes I I have gotten more able to look at got some kind of quote unquote hard images and usually that means graphic or violent images and I I think of it akin to it's the way officer. A surgeon grows overtime rates. You start out as a medical student. At some point you have to do a dissection of a human body and I imagined that that is is very difficult the first time you have to put a scalpel to skin and I imagine it's difficult the second time and then it gets easier and easier and if I needed to have surgery I don't want want a surgeon who isn't capable of doing it in a very confident not squeamish way right. They have to get used to what they're doing. So in that sense MM-HMM I think there are some images that other people would find very graphic and it's easier for me to look at them some kinds of Like certain kinds of let's say a gunshot wound The images that for me never seem to lose that punch to the stomach are when I see pictures of children in enormous pain or severely malnourished or when I see pictures of children who are dead and the parents are somewhere in the frame of the of the in that same frame because the parents her almost always if not always the agony is is written into their faces. It's it's just seems the most devastating thing that could happen to someone so I find find those very they continue to be powerful images and I thought about this In putting together the book. There's a balance between some hard graphic imagery. There's there's beautiful images in this book as well there's beautifully serene images including one by Shahidullah. Where you have to understand it in context to realize actually this is very a very haunting the crossfire photograph so in terms of how do you deal with it? I think recognizing that images can be painful and talking. I mean I'd certainly we talk to colleagues and Photographer friends about I find that. Actually just talking about it and acknowledging it is helpful for me and unhelpful for others in. Because I don't want to in fact become numb to someone else's pain I don't WanNa ever get to a point where I can look at. Someone's his extreme suffering and say it doesn't matter to me anymore and you talked about that somewhat being seed for the book itself responses from students. Can you show them you know painful images and they just didn't want to bother. The entire book started because of an episode and one of my classes at. And why you where we were. It was of course on conflict imaging and ethics Until we were asking questions like what does it mean to look someone else's suffering and we were studying a famine that happened in Sudan in the early nineteen nineties and so the students read about the history of it there at about the political forces they looked at the photographic coverage of it and they read the critiques of the coverage and they came into class and I was just about to start the lecture and I put up the first image which was from their assigned work. And it's a photo is black and white. It's at A feeding center in Sudan and it shows a man who is severely severely emaciated you really skin and bones. And he's too weak to stand so he's crawling on the ground and I think it's a I think it's an image that Sh- really confronts you with what can happen into the human form like in a in a very terrible circumstance and so I was just about to start. Speaking in a student raised his hand and said professor. I know why you're putting that picture trope. It's such a Downer and I have plans tonight and I don't feel like I should be made to feel by looking at it. I have nothing to do with his suffering so the book then became a I I initially. I froze I didn't know what to do Because I'd never had students that it's not it's not even a required class like they all have elected to be in that class But I thought about his response more and more and it was actually after Having a conversation with the photographer friend who covers conflict around the world and telling him the anecdote and I thought he was going to say something. Like millennials are so selfish or that was so obnoxious and he said the opposite acid- he said. I'm not sure why you're surprised. It's not provocative. I hear this all the time so that was when I thought okay. Well if that is a response then the first question I was asking was then. What's the point of this kind of imagery and I personally think there is tremendous value to documenting conflict And so so then. The book became This endeavor to understand. How do you do this? We're speaking giving voice to the practitioners. How do you do this work? Why you you do this work? What successes and failures do you encounter? And I was very interested in continuing the line that had started in my classroom which was thinking about all the ethical all components of work. Especially when you're in settings that are in in some cases life or death in in your book you have. The photograph is picture in particular of the Boston. Marathon breath on bombing one of the survivors. Being wheeled off his foot is straight out and below the knee you just see. A Shin Bone sticking out and some muscle and the was published just cropped just before the knee because the editors thought that was just a little bit too graphic and a little bit. Two bloody How do you deal with that? I mean where do you draw a line. How do you push maybe just jump in here? Look at to say that I mean in your exhibit. There there are very few violent images. You're torturing conflict and war and social unrest Do you you feel. Do you find that it's necessary to show the abject violence in order to make the point you WanNa make an and over the years of seeing how your photos have been reacted to do you find one an or another doing more as it were well. Lauren was referring to a particular body. What called crossfire? Which is about extrajudicial killings and when I started doing the work I considered what should be the imagery because would showing more bodies Actually add to either our information or our response to it We decided to take a very different position position. They were tactical reasons as well. I mean in the sense. I live in work in a very repressive environment and I want to make sure that my work can a slip in That I can actually show my way. So we did extensive research And then we decided to produce images based on what we assumed would be the last site off the dying person but we did some certain things which contextualized for instance All the debts all the killings had taken place in at night. Several photograph was taken at at that point in time early as the morning. Whenever the killing taking place we talked to the family members who survived and he said well the first thing we saw with these torches being shown on my face so every picture has been lit by torchlight so there are very subtle things which it's only when you begin to deconstruct that image? You realize is that element within it but that show has until until now being the most successful show I've ever had including the fact that when the government closed it down we took the government to court and we we were able to get the show reopened it's been shown in major festivals being. It's been on the front cover of amnesty human rights. Watch and it. It has been a tool for activism for many people who've begun to use it. Now I remember having a conversation with Christian cajole I think it was in Barcelona where he was talking about how we were wondering whether had Eugene Smith Been Alive today he would. He would have photograph Pittsburgh the same as he did. Then we don't know for sure but I I would like to think that he would have found a different way of telling the story. Because the landscape the media landscape is shifted the language of choice Sir and Shakespeare and Dickens and Salman Rushdie an entity. Roy are all very very very different each appropriate for a particular point in time yet as photographers. We've often felt that bb purist and this is the only way hey to render and produce image the fact that people respond differently that the environment is different is something we need to respond to to come back to your. Oh question about What is happening? I think what drives me. It's the knowledge that while we hear sitting in this lovely studio it'd be an H.. There are people dying there that are people being disappeared. There are people facing horrendous consequences for standing up for their rights. Her and while that is happening this is not an academic exercise. It is not an exhibition or a project of some sort. This is about people's lives and if that's the case that keeps you the adrenaline I think just on that point though I mean the questions that you're asking Alan Alan. Those are some of the things that I really wanted. An it comes up a lot in the section of interviews with the photo editors right what is too graphic and how do you define defined quote unquote. Too graphic are you giving more dignity to let's say the American victim versus the black or brown body from another part of the world how you're treating the subjects in the photographs And these kinds of questions of what we see and what we don't see so that's all kind of connected to the question you raise as before and in terms of graphic imagery you know the photograph of The victims named from the Boston Marathon bombing is Jeff Bauman and it really. He is a very graphic photograph And if one of your goals is as a news entity is to get people to engage with to look at the image and read about it with with very graphic imagery you do run the risk of revulsion. It's too much and people then and you've lost your news reader. I I personally think there are times when The the very graphic image should still be taken right and it may not. We need to be published in the newspaper but The interview. Let's say with Human Rights Watch talks about this. Or there's a photograph by Ron Haviv in the the book. The picture of ethnic cleansing mates it's para-military standing over the bodies of executed civilians. And it's a photograph that will that one was published quite widely. But it's also a photograph that came back later on to be used to prosecute to indict in prosecute criminals. And I think in that sense sometimes. The graphic imagery The graphic imagery. That isn't let's say used. Initially as journalism can be used as evidence in courts of law conscience Kupuna Reno which photograph if you're referring to him and also about your sh the show crossfire and this idea that you know the the viewer needs to understand the context and therefore is engaged more with this the series and therefore it might be more effective simply because they are engaged as opposed to that very graphic image that they may look for a second look away you know what I I mean. So obviously the viewers key to any kind of activism to go beyond that and and I speak as an activist activists. You know. I'm not trying to produce the perfect image I'm trying to produce the most effective image And at the end of the day it is not merely the image but how it is used on with crossfire for instance. We've had it in conventional magazines that British Journal of Photography and other traditional photographic outlets. But it's also going to museums. It's gone to galleries. It's it's been used by activists in the streets streets and it's been used on the cover of amnesty and Human Rights Watch so that multiplicity of use is not something that lends itself off to every image and perhaps certain images are better able to overcome those barriers. I also I I I just I found it so fascinating and I think it's really worth pointing out That because the book covers the history of the world I worked for the fact Checker To to fact everything we learned in the process that after he duels crow show crossfire was up in Bangladesh. The number of extrajudicial show killings by this killing force went down shine a light question. Russian that has slightly do this These newspapers traditional even online news agencies are are the most effective way still For underrepresented stories to be told you spoke about a show at a mosque and You have a museum and obviously there many now uh nontraditional. Let's say ways to get images out there even a poster on a street that somebody carrying. Do you think that the were kind of over this this kind kind of the mass. Let's say mass journalism Is it still effective is still useful for the types of stories that you want to tell. I don't think there is one answer. I I think that in itself is what needs to. You need to take every situation and work best to it. And I think we need that plurality. Not You know. The online space. Is the traditional spaces social media word of mouth. All of that are valid Some but better in certain situations than others I I work in an environment where let's say in Bangladesh for instance. The printed newspaper is still increasing circulation. which is exactly the opposite of what's happening out here and it will change? There will be a time when that will shift but until it does I will recognize the imminent. Will your photos or photos of your colleagues that you respect who are working in these these stories. Will they find their way into into a Bangladeshi newspaper. That will depend very much upon what what how we've arranged to it because some of of it is not even about the newspaper. This you may know of this various famous Pulitzer winning picture of Michelle Laura of the banning of the Biharis in Bangladesh. Now Russia Talukdar. One of our photographers also took a very strong picture that time he never published it because publishing it would be equivalent to signing his own death warrant. The people who did the banting was still very much in control. It was only in Nineteen ninety-three three twenty two years later. I was able to convince him that it was now safe to publish that picture. So those are part of what happens you you know you. You need to negotiate that space. But I think one of the things where we have lost out as photography's we to solarge extent have felt that the photograph images all there is to it. I think many other things happen to happen. Be Around contextualising. It is important. I I think it's vital that photography writers I think we I still retailers need to find multiple ways of telling stories of engaging and once we're able to do that our work then becomes so much more usable by by the media itself. It's when it's a uni-polar in a Polish single image standing on its own it has limited potential when we were at the museum earlier. EU brought up Sunday. It was kind of interesting where you will be putting a show in a mosque. And you're getting a lot of pushback about that and the way you explained things to them change these things around. Can you go over that again. Because I thought that was very amazingly very tactically us will I I live and work in Bangladesh where many many people think fed graphs are haram. You know For instance if there's a funeral the photographs will be turned a ten round because it's not considered proper for photographs to be there in religious situation. I had chosen synagogues and churches and temples at never shown in a mosque. Because was it was considered impossible to and I'm very conscious off Islamaphobia of xenophobia and the perceptions about Islam and I want to dress that at the same time I also wanted places like musk's to become known for what their true the potential is So the first challenge was convincing the mosque that I can show work in it. It's a very beautiful must by the way at one dollar kind of what your tech Designed by a woman land is to mate donated by her grandmother so those elements to it as well And I took photographs but before he nice started taking photographs. I spoke to the mosque committee until them why I wanted to do it and I reminded them mm of how Prophet Mohammad had used his. Musk the fact that his mosque in Medina was an education center. A Cultural Center into a community center A hospital it sheltered women met state dignitaries in the mosque but there it was an art troupe from Abyssinia who came and said to the Prophet where can be show. We have no place to show our work and he said show it. In My mosque it became a gallery. If during the prophets time ago a musket have such a wonderfully diverse range of usage. Why have you reduced? And it's not just for true from us. It's true of places of prayer. In a sense I think religion and has been reduced to very clinical actions about which have to do with praying and proselytizing and older set of things whereas it is part out of human life and be forgotten that so that is a show. I'm now trying to show. Wildest Ruben shows going on perhaps in moss around the country speaking of the show. Can we talk a little bit about that. And how you organize that you mentioned that It is organized as a kind of trilogy. Is that true or really one show within within not aspect. I mean it. I don't know if it's what I expected. Necessarily the whole show. I mean there's kind of a retrospective aspect But there's also you're dealing with certain particular stories within this. Can you talk a little bit about a couple of those The Ruben show it's billed as a retrospective. There's only so much you can show so there. There are significant chapters which are not there for instance crossfire. But what we've tried to do a a two things. One is look at the trajectory of my attempt for social justice which is underpinned underpins the entire show but also the various vocabularies that I've tried to us from traditional black and white photo repertoire as Magnum and other agencies would have done to find out conceptual chill work and places where I've ensured that the politics of my work is embedded within the artwork itself because one of the things that had happened happened in the very first body of work which I did which is called the struggle for democracy I was looking at politics The resistance to generally shot and there is a sequence of pictures which are about a flood that take place it was them biggest flooding in a century. An juxtaposed without is these are the photographs of wedding a hugely opulent wedding. That had taken place. It was the daughter very powerful minister now. The juxtaposition the position made it very stock. Here was this wedding taking place out of time with the nation is really under those floods That made it difficult because that was what scared off my sponsors versa and I stopped getting out. None of the galleries would be prepared to show the work. So that ah led to a whole different set of things towards you a lesson yes we built gallery. You know. It's it's looked at politics with appea- but also Class divides gender shoes environmental issues military occupation a whole range of things but covered. It did not work but later on I've looked at things like disappearance Be talked about the crossfire. Show the The show about the culpeper culpeper Chuck Norris Indigenous. A woman who was picked up at the military on the twelfth of June nineteen. Ninety six works for me was very significant because we had fought our war for the right to speak our language yet within our own nation. Be Denying other people to speak. There's that for me would so staggering. The word indigenous is something that cannot be used. It's is being banned by our Constitution. You cannot use the word indigenous in English so I began on the twelfth of June two thousand thirteen gene and the next two years on the twelfth of June producing a new body of work. The first body I did was using forensic technology technology to look look at what I considered the silent witnesses so I collected objects along the path of a last journey and photograph in the clarify. This was the young woman who was disappeared. She she was. She was picked up by the military on the night of the twelfth of June nineteen ninety six and what was her offense. She was an activist. She wanted rights for her people. Okay a so on. The investigation is still ongoing going. I thought well if you've got to do an investigation. What do you do right at the beginning? You do the forensic study the words of bungalows like me and the military were taken into account for the Bihari Voices. Whenever heard so? I thought I would interrogate the silent. Witnesses and it's. It's work that I did in initially in Bangladesh than in Britain Germany eventually in Australia And produce those High magnification images through fluorescent photography. I then did other body of work where I tried to show the person and we were talking earlier on about how you felt that there was actually a person then Dan yes I still WANNA go back. I'm I'm convinced there was somebody. I don't care what you see. On the next body of work was about the champions Champions of culpable the people who've carried on the fight which includes my partner which includes Sara Hussain. WHO's the lawyer who who stood up for me one of his jail on CIDER gourock again? Someone who I've been working with for a long time class. What sorry to interrupt up at the the motivation to take on this story in this manner with the forensic photography styling was as something that you felt was born from the story itself or was it something that you said you know what I this is something? I'd like to do as a photographer. I'd like to investigate in this terms and use a different set of skills. Well my my partner actually asked me a very pertinent question She said let me ask you a silly question. Isn't it all in the imagination you say. Of course it was in my imagination but I felt through that imagination. I could unlock some doors. AUSE and there were two things I wanted to do. One point out that the process of investigation was flawed seriously flawed. But also. Here's a person and there are no photographs of this woman This has happened at when I was doing the work had happened. What Sixteen years ago seventeen years ago you know. What am I going to photograph seventeen years after the event and I thought there are still people? There are still objects that can speak to me and of course as a photographer. I need something visual so I need to find a visual way of rendering story story. So that's how I began then. I thought the other challenges we need to bring her live. This is a woman who is flesh and blood who was picked away taken away from us. This is my sister who no longer exists. I need to bring back by sister. So the next body of work which is where you thought that she was there she is. I'm sorry so in that sense I've been success with the third one which was on the straw mats actually had to do with a broader range of issues because we have now begun a campaign called no more as the name suggests suggests these are things we think society should not tolerate and we began it with south work about the government accidents that are taking place in Bangladesh. We didn't in confident Chatman. We've continued with crossfire. And all these other things so in that particular story we want to include something about the garment industry within the work and the process of doing the work itself was significant. Because something had happened very early on when I showed that I work doc on struggled for democracy you know the there's a wedding pictures and there's a flood pitches and everyone turns it down. There was a magazine that published a review. You might get out of that work. Interestingly the owner of the magazine was the wife of the minister. I thought what's going on. Here this is this this minister critiquing and whatever his wife does and it was a beautiful review. But then you take a step back and you find in the review. They talk about the artistry by work. DOC The compositions subtlety the strength of my blackened mind photography completely obliterating the political hunter. They're going to an art show. We'll exactly exactly and this is the trap that B. Find Ourselves in you can be your Nice. Little artists will give you some funding will give you a nice gallery. Will you'll have a great show. Let's leave the politics out of it. And I decided I would ensure that my politics could not be separated from art and in this final work. Queer eye produce the work in a manner where the fire that burned. Those villages is used to burn those Straw mats. The carbon a not straw-mat is my pixel an entire process also involves the garment industry in older set of things. So when you look at that image in China understand that image you take all of that political background in you know. As we mentioned earlier you spent a couple of months in jail last year. And it's almost a almost a year to the day since your release I guess this is kind of a big question that I'll break down into a couple of things how was it to be in some sense. The focus of the news the story of the News as opposed to somebody covering the news How did that work for you And how was it to not be able able to document with a camera in the time that you were in jail or even the time afterwards. I'm assuming took a little bit to get your gear back somehow or get it new gear and then obviously maybe a year later any any kind of stop the second question. I When I was a student you you had money problems? Have Money Problems There's were analog days yet to buy me a protest film it was expensive cameras expensive today but at that time the actual actual film itself So I used to go round taking pictures without film in my camera. I would take pictures all day. I've done that and of course you went as you need to. uh-huh gymnast needs to train himself or herself. A musician need to do the vocals do you you practice the cords. This is part of the gymnastics photography needs to do you look at images you breathe images. Look Imagine the images that you've missed out and all those side would go around all day taking pictures without single film. Now that when I began my work I did these stories on the missing on the disappeared. Now photography's very good at rendering. What is in front of the visual? It's not as good at photographing the missing the invisible It's not a natural medium for photographing what is absent. But it can be done and I. I was doing that for some time. While it's jail. The camera itself was missing so then I had to find a way of. How do I tell the story when it's not there itself? The two things I did the I had nothing and to do with me. I managed to convince Not I own my own together. With other prisoners we may able to convince the warden's to allow paint brushes and paint and the prisoners painted murals. Eighty five huge murals. It's like a museum inside the jail it's dramatic But I began to use words. I I mean I do right by. I interviewed extensively while I was there. I made copious notes but when I came out I started working with my niece. Sophia Kareem as an architect to producing three D models off Off The the Jalen of the situations I've been in based on my memory. We decided not to do it from architectural drawings Google maps but use my memory which is a more focus On that that Amorphous Nature I felt was part of it because this these two artists talking to one another models are very exacting. I was looking at them and I'm surprised to hear you. It's from your memory. It looks like they were taken from actual line drawings of the plans. That are very interesting. Things in there. For instance there are the sparrows I used to feed and that was what I had. The sparrows were free. They had flight. They were outside And I I started feeding them and we didn't have anything there so fellow prisoners smuggled in cardboard boxes which I cut up to make a little platform for them and I would save a little a bit of my breakfast for the sparrows and they come in and fleet inside. I took down the mosquito net from my window to allow them in. I I was preventive. PUT UP WITH MOSQUITO BITES. I have my sparrow friend so there are those little details but all of that is there and there is for instance another element which is me collecting flies because my partner would come every day other people would come really. It's the people outside who suffered a lot more than I did. I think but they would bring me things. I had nothing to give back side would collect flowers in the morning and give them those flowers. That was my gift back. That is also part of the show. Wonderful I didn't answer the other bit. No I did. Yeah I think you and I mean well maybe just this this idea of the media looking back at you as opposed to around July. And I've been doing this for a very very long time. So over. The years is Built bug eyed students across the globe. public speaker I write. I take pictures. I work at many levels and part of that I think resulted in in this very widely orchestrated very powerful movement I thought it was people. Power is fantastic. You know show of People Power but in terms of having the spotlight on me. It's true that spotlight was on me. But I look at everything I do as part of my social activism a a now that the spotlight was in me I decided I would use that spotlight and I my being here. Today is part of that because what I'm also talking talking about is not me as such but what I represent and I think through this today. You know your viewers out there. We'll know about what is happening in Bangladesh and for me one of the questions to ask it not merely what my Bangladeshi government is doing but what international governments during the fact that you sell weapons to my government the fact that you sell surveillance equipment to my government on not despite bite the rhetoric of democracy and freedom. Most foreign governments have far more interested in working with applying dictator than a messy. Democracy is something thing I want to remind the average citizens and I believe the onus is upon you to ask those hard questions to your government to ensure that your tax money isn't used the wrong way good points I will say on that exact note one of the things that I worked very hard to do in the book especially in these essays as by me which are trying to describe what is the contemporary landscape of journalism but also What are some of the critical questions we as viewers should be asking asking of images? It is one of my hopes that someone who reads the book will then be able to look at a photograph and not just say. I'm seeing suffering in Yemen or I'm seeing suffering in whatever location. It is where the picture was taken but will then ask the question. Chen of and what role do I play in this home connected to the yeah exactly Maybe just to take a little different direction What camera do you use with your favorite Lens? What what what do you find important about The gear use anything. I use the camera have with me. Okay all right phone. These phone wasn't in fact within the show. You had an iphone. Yes I I use it quite a lot. I use it extensively in fact a lot of the reporting I was doing. I was doing with my iphones at that time the reporting for which I went to jail wis because of my iphone photography That was for a practical reason. You know we it meant I could work at a level which perhaps would be less under the great more under the radar got phone. Yeah But of course I still got caught out Decrepit got smashed. I got beaten up and I continue. She needs to work what the police have today on my iphones and my macbook pro. They didn't know you get another one. I Guess I uh-huh you've been doing this for forty years. Can you point anything concrete. That's come as positive that you'd say okay. I know that my work made aide. This happened made this positive change. Can you point to anything in particular. Hala Corey referred to something very tiny. I left home in seventeen seventeen. I came back when I was twenty nine. I didn't really know my parents as adults and I wanted to know them. These were very special people but I knew it was going to be very difficult. I'd lived a very independent life and here I was twenty nine year old living at home. You know there's gotTa that'd be problem so there were problems but one of the things I hadn't anticipated was in middle class homes in Bangladesh. You have home help. NOPE and there was a young boy. Called Meson who used to clean the rooms babies to watch television And we would sit there and and what television. He would sit outside the room to television through the door. Not Very far away but politically socially miles apart. One of things we've done is we've used our calendar for activism as well whereas calendars before we used had. I used to have pretty pictures. Flowers landscape pretty women. We decided to use social documentary as the content of calendar. An an I in in the calendar I think it was in one thousand nine hundred. Eighty eight published a picture of musone watching TV. I give a copy to Meson. I gave a couple of my mother over the next day. Meson satisfied that trump to TV with us a very tiny think perhaps but very succinct and may may very tough and it was your parents that do you think that it was and this is maybe a broader question than this situation but was there the awareness. It just wasn't there until the photo was shown to them or the photo itself. Force them to kind of re to say you know what I I have to. I have to address this. Does it fish. No it's a motor. I mean we are surrounded each one of us have so many prejudices and biases which we are not aware of overlooked only when we confronted by it and here here was a a very liberated educated Progressive Woman Who's being confronted by WHO own son About what was happening thing in her home every day and this is going to lead me to. I guess maybe our last questions with you spoke of people who are disappeared or people came back to Bangladesh but then they lost their voice voice You are middle class man. Who Studied Chemistry? What why do you still have your voice? Why are you able to go back? Time meantime again and speak and create institutions. That will continue to speak. I think firstly I'm not alone I mean I am physically here talking. But there risk a huge group of people around me and it's a collective struggle one of the things I began to. It was a conscious decision to make as a photographer I got into photography because I wanted social change and I had to think of how best that social change might be affected. Certainly through photography and writing was one one but I felt if you've got to fight a war you need warriors and you need to build warriors so I the agency was a platform on which Sean through which we could work. I set up the school so they were now. There are so many other young bright photography's from Manga. They doing work. Then I set up the festival itself and while I'm not a politician I am engaged in politics and I. I have two areas of interest in three areas of intervention media education and culture and I ensure that with that tripod I exert pressure sure upon the political spacesuit politicians cannot get away what they used to getting away with and in terms of having the voice I think it is a collective voice yes and sure this is a phenomenal movement. You know they were over a dozen Nobel laureates world celebrities campaigning for me but there were people people on the ground and people in Bangladesh taking uterus to be doing it and I don't think this is my voice. I think it is our voice. I'm just happy that I'm able to carry it. Okay then a wrap of a fascinating show if I may say so myself and speaking shows we'd like to remind everybody that Shadow allom truth to power will be on exhibit at the Rubin Museum of Art. That's here in New York City through May fourth twenty twenty. The museum is located at one fifty West Seventeenth Street which is just down the street. From one of the original locations of being h photo Daulat listeners would like to catch up on more of your work which websites instagram. Where could they go to see more of your work? Dot Com three three dot net. That's my own site in the agency but I also run a blog shade. The News Dot Com So those would be good but there is the show coming up at the Vienna Next month in the later this month in thirteen thirty in London. And we'll have all of this information in our show notes And as a book should be buying looking at you should now have arrived at the Rubin on Steidl which is fabulous publisher of books. Folks I mean Hera came to a festival in March. He said I wanted to your book. I said you know I've got a show at Rubin in November Says Keeping The manuscript is August. I'll give you a book. And he did it was I just came from going in and the work incredibly hard all shifts weekends and I've just been told that the book has physically arrived. It's called the tide will turn it's edited by. Vj Shot but it also has a beautiful letter by the great writer around the Roy. Okay all right Lauren. Your new book is conversations on conflict. The target fee and it's available now right. Yes it's been out since early October. Okay and I was just flipping through the early and it's it's a powerful book that I definitely want to go back and Revisit Fisher. Thank you really really good and if people want to catch up on more of what you're up to can they go to Lauren. Walsh DOT COM easy. Okay and again all this will be our show notes as well Lauren. Welcome back against against always great having you as a guest here Shell pleasure honor having you here in our studio It was a fascinating discussion. Thank you so much this you again. Some type LIMP. Are you not a regular subscribe to our show. If not all you have to do is head. On over to apple podcast Google podcast stitcher overcast or spotify and sign up. It's absolutely free. Tell Them L.. Sent you In the meantime My name is Alan Whites and on behalf of Jason and John Fine. Thank you so much tuning into today

Bangladesh facebook New York China United States Boston Alan Alan Shahidullah Dr Lawrence Walsh Rubin Museum of Art Time Magazine Dhaka Rubin Museum Alan White Lorne
TFATK 481: Andrew Santino & Sam Tripoli

The Fighter And The Kid

1:22:55 hr | 1 year ago

TFATK 481: Andrew Santino & Sam Tripoli

"Before we jump into this juicy conspiracy Phil podcast with Andrew Santino in San the trip Tripoli before we get into do it Brian Collins out. He's in Utah dealing with some fairly matters so I'm Brian to my friends you guys some of you will dig it. Some of you will hate it either way. Enjoy it <hes> but I am often Nashville Nostril this Thursday night Friday and Saturday Nashville Zanies when my favorite clubs in the world but I'm on my Keto Diet my kito kicking down six pounds already baby what's up what's up to thirty five. Come it. You'll fuck and way big boys are in and it's bulking season no longer longer for me no longer those confusing but no longer Nashville Thursday Friday Saturday. I can't eat your delicious food. Whatever keep it away from me? I thought asked Nashville doc in Portland at the heel in Portland on August fifteenth through the seventeenth the helium in Portland after them in Gold Country Casino Oroville California California with Brian Kidd Callan <hes> doing standup show but <hes> then I'm in Houston and that is August is that August September twentieth twenty-first Houston and then Denver either way tickets for national helium right now T. fat K. DOT COM Nashville Portland helium but natural zanies Nashville IOS Amy's Portland Helium T K DOT com. I will see you this week Nashville. Let's do it on it. We're back you want support. You want vitality total human optimization total gut health total. Mike Mike Andrea took Crowell shrimp tech immune be active be comp- complex yeah he he'd minerals off the entire retire but I got everything you want you just check. They got it all Brian Bliss page. Do they got keyed off your Kito kid myself. They got workout gear. They get the best supplements on Planet Audit. 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Dot Com enter Promo Code Shaab and you get ten percent off the whole damn website. That's ten percent off if anything the lotions isolate the oil everything ten percent off right so go to pure spectrum C._B._D.. Dot Com for the Best Damn C._B.. Be Dual on the planet. Get you some pure spectrum C._B._D.. Dot Com Promo Code Job. We are also brought to you by the best coffee in the world and right now. They're doing a pretty cool giveaway. You saw those clowns at starbucks who kicked out the cops. That's not what we do have black rifle black rifle coffee company Tony by a bag given back from now through July nineteenth black rifle coffee will donate a bag of coffee to the U._S.. Law enforcement agencies for every coffee purchase purchase you make that's how we roll. Which you WANNA do starbucks you kick them out? We're open arms here. Baby that's right. We are open arms. You want the best coffee fi cool go to black rifle coffee company DOT COM. You want some dope gear whether it's their trucker hat which seeming rock in on today's episode all the time when I work out there the coffee or die shirts whatever you want. They got the best coffee the best gear you can become a member of subscription plan where every month you don't have to worry about coffee anymore. It comes TMZ delivered to your door fresh roasted just for you become a member. You get special discounts before everybody a special gear. This is a no brainer rainer visit black rifle coffee dot com slash Shaab and receive ten percents off your entire order with you. Get the Big Brown dark roast which I think is the best or you get any of their roast. You get ten percent off black rifle coffee dot com slash Shaab. You're welcome many men. Can we start my oh crunch obviously obvious for sure set it set a here on them black belts and chips chicken. I think you'd be surprised I think you'd be surprised. Havoc Kenny Fight Club bike club bike club. Kids got the peace on our seas yeah cutie pies. I still got it baby. Lift Your Shield and now from the honored studios in Playa Vista California California is the moment you've been waiting for the final and the kid is coming at you know we're not live. We're not we don't and now it's the fodder and the kid the live we should go. We should go. We should celebrate kind of Brian couns out here. Thank thank God dude. He's not here so nobody wants. fucking guy around you know filling in Sam Tripoli. WHO's the world get you attract acting me too much pressure from the people? It's finally happened in Hollywood because these guys are booked me and then they call me. Hey Dude. Can we move it up. Our which is ten minutes from now to go do this podcast. I'm on the other side of the fuck and city. They wanted me to get here like I got some kind. Ah Jeffers jetsons fucking airplane that could you want how ben but also weird you're here. Yeah you're hearing yeah. How Weird is when we talk about all of his friends with texted me? He told me he was like I can't be there on purpose trips coming in his dad battle now. He's one of my favorite lizard people though like he's Lisera. Oh yeah there's something there what do you think is he's because he's coordinated his dad. See Afar. I mean that's cool. I think there are some good see if I'm sure there was some cool Nazis out there too that we're just like listen. I just need to check. This is just a the man. I don't have anything AGAINST GIUSEPPE MY LOSS Virginia to getting a Mary. Do you know to nine to five in March march march yells at US saying we're going to do the fact that the fucking Hiller was a straight up tweaker yeah well. They all were hitting booking king math all day but it wasn't all the Nazis Ron Meth wasn't the whole thing on they marched and they would lead and they would load them up as hard as they could. Kinda like the kamikazes they fucking loaded them up with fucking shit before they went out there. I don't know that do that to the Nazis were on so much because and then they can march through the night yeah adjust these guys jobs for forty six miles like no sleep yeah the kamikazes they would pump them up with shit to get them delusional crash. The plane lost war because the Nazi not south fighting tried to suck their own dick stole time yeah. That's what you're gonNA do on speed. is you distract yourself a long enough. You know what I mean. Here's the thing though Nazis did it good app see more Japanese kamikaze man but also anyone you see on math instagram. These famous famous people are like jet-setting during Dublin hair than their New York and and three hours of sleep. What do you think they're they're all they're all just drugged up? He wanted to speed but everybody's Rockin adderall like everybody's the same teams actually literally in the agreement the doctor gave it to they think it's all good yeah for sure he's not doing a he was thinking about doing a he's this great thing where he's he goes the rocks inspiration we could talk about like he's not so much. Steers Shit like that's not really look. Methamphetamine was used through World War Two when keep to keep troops high and we're giving a Japanese kamikaze pilots before the suicide missions right get <hes> you juiced up before you fucking die fucked up before I die. You know you're going to die. Give me the strongest shit ever. Give it to me. I would fuck and I would advain myself right before shrooms. Heroin heroin rooms takes too long to kick in now. Why would why you have it on in the air while I'm in the if I'm like in your t minus five minutes from crashing? I'm fucking. Give me give it to me right away heroin in the neck I want I want to be nice on the Dick Miles Mushrooms fucking in speed ball nice one. If you take mushrooms you you might not WanNa fucking balls dog just go far now. fucked at flyaways from five can do about last night at the store. I get a set in the first time ever in the O._R.. Doing some show they asked so we do a set there and I go oh I thought it was in the main room and they go rogin has two shows in the main room like well not in Rogan's and I go what room lane like Oh. You're no Armco this whole exciting hiding for me. You've never been you've never shown. They're never never done Voodoo Room. I've watched so many people get broken there this break listen to what fucking happen dude in a minute into it dude in the front row falls. I see the corner mind like okay. I keep seapower through like a professional like a pro and his girl goes. No Stop Stop. He's having a heart attack and I yo excuse me choose. He's ever heart attack and I still think I was killing. The crowd like the left side. Lhasa can't see these people aren't laughing. I go appeaser doctor. I go oh my God I see on the ground like this was their doctrine here. It's guy goes I met you. I'm a doctor they get them like drag. Drag him out and I don't know what to do and I go. Do I keep going keep going keep going that is funny so we're was either go. You're talking about the Calcio. It's all new bit too in the couch so duty was did they drag him out the the comedy Johny store guys. I like one Hatem on. He picked him up. Did he come to. He came to what if what if he didn't take C._D._N.. Me Today he goes dude <music>. I'm sitting here. I was the biggest fan man. It's not a heart attack. I have a heart condition and it's only happened a few times but only privately because it's never happened in public us. I'm so fucking. How old was this guy thirty? Something embarrasses embiid who's embarrassed of a heart condition embarrassed about. I'm sorry I'm embarrassed by this. Debilitating thing I literally can't control control dude. That's fucking shouts out to that dude for and Sung in and out and going to the show with a heart condition knowing that it could happen though are but yeah I mean it was probably Scotland. He's got a little bit worse than you do. He's the guy that passed out at his girlfriend's ever going to let them let him live down you know that right to. I can't take you anywhere mark as C._B._S.. Out has to drag him out she goes. This is so embarrassing your his favorite. You should do something nice for this guy I did. I tell them I said. Let me know any tickets. They get you want man the Ron me. She goes seem in hospital private. Shell private show. That's a good idea phone will make get worse and more weird than private show. I thought so we're going to have to do the pulp fiction frigging with the heart thing forget what does that with what what is that with <hes>. What's that called something pen not Yuppie epinephrine? That's what it is what do they what do they put into you. This Jesus blood yeah. They put his blood got inside your body of Christ blood of Christ into your but yeah you know when they ask when they go. Is there a doctor what heart attacks doctor then you're fucked. What if he's talk whatever he's doing well? This is like the doctor this bucket room do this thing I didn't know joking about it because I want to go is is there doctrine room. I'm not is playing one on TV. I want to keep going on like I'm not I've been here so she adam or whoever whoever's run the store last night. I don't uh-huh keep going dude. You can't you showing without when someone has a heart attack you gotta chill out for a second team yeah well. That's the O._R.'s all about you know why the O._R.'s the best you know why comedy comics are the best because because there's no host you do if you join just flaying throat the room. There's nobody can go eat a little type. You rate up everywhere. There's a whole up their dog stick like a grown ass man. None of the beauty is in my opinion when they're killing when they're killing like that like someone like D._s.. And because there's no host I like it more because then then not only is the pressure but also the praises on you because it's like Joey gives you a dope intro there already on fire you you know how to ride the wave your fucking money versus someone kills and like I just did a show someone kills and host goes up and it's just eating shit for no firings and you're like what the fuck are you doing but also sometimes when they're introducing you. I've always said great intros. I think Dane Cook the best show ever and I don't know him at all getting he did. What did he say just some really Nice Duck Hawk Damn Dude Gimme the worst ever and I love Nick Kroll but Nick Kroll? Why would he say he owes? <hes> who's Eric Shabas this. This is like a month ago this guy. He's fighting U._F._C. so give it up for Brennan CIA. Oh that's nice yeah. That's real nice. We'll think good setup man extra talented. Thanks for telling my past and they giving me any credibility right. Now that I'm here I come out really this yeah a main room. This guy went to community college twenty years ago. Give it up for this fucking A. C.. Biology abortions uh-huh just fake it just fake it. That's always three baby. DADDIES can fake it. Be Fun. Fake it. This guy's awesome. You've seen this guy he's great blah. Blah Blah Blah Blah. That's for every every pro fakes it or you just do a Ron white US ron white remembers everybody in nobody at the exact same time everyone's injuries I love this fucking dude or or czars principled store or hold on Probably Diaz D. as rom white to me when they hit I think is way harder to follow when he's on fire punk yeah but glee is different. I follow him okay. I always expect either dogs. I'm like okay well. Let's see and it just goes five. It's different because De de de Leon. Does the latest comedy can be followed by your comedy pretty easily. It's completely different yeah but joey is in his own lane of story talented energy. It's just different. It's like it's like nothing rings and it's also top shelf edgy shit talk about he's he's talking about it and you go like hey. I had a weird day driving like fuck. We just heard about eating ass for fifteen minute sued. I one time had the foul joey at a Joe Rogan show in San Jose which is the equivalent of middling for Van Halen when the opening act is David Lee Roth okay so joey goes up does fifteen minutes of eating asked I'm like what do I got the follow. This I go up there flatlined applying for about ten minutes. How long does this this was many moon jail now? It's like dude now. It's like I could follow anybody. I don't really care about it like recently like Dick Adams who make Brian Holtzman and back in the day that was a fucking that was work that was work because he would either destroy the room and everyone's like that's great thing thing I've ever seen or he would just piss everywhere destroyed the room and everyone get mad dude. I've seen him do that. Yell at a guy until he walked out and yell at him as he walked out. She's it's so funny dude. It's so funny to watch. Who are you going going going to get like he's? He plays these mind games that people so much of a comic. It's brilliant as a fan. It's probably hard because you're like some nights are fucking brilliant and awesome and some nights. He's angry Rian often weird and the store. That's why it's so good but it's all totally else. Is doing that anywhere anywhere yeah. Why is the store jumping when no one else's we've got podcasts are constantly talking about it and to look lose coup came up there and who is gigging there right now? Everywhere else is like political correctness. GotTa have diversity also source like flames the room or get the fuck Outta here but but also comes from the door guys to anybody. Your guys are all murdered ons now monsters. It is Kinda creepy. You do some the others see you do some other rooms to you. Go there. I'll bounce around into other people's rooms that they asked me to come. Do them like mellow does a bunch of different rooms there anybody that has a different show but I'm also feel the improper foul you mean outside of the yeah yeah no totally different five fucking years finally got the door guys. Come there and just like that place I in Montreal. It's so funny every time when I go there there it's becoming more and more like what I think. It should be where the crowds Route no but the crowd is the crowd was so but what I'm saying the truth is like I think sometimes you go to those places in your like. I don't know if I can tell this kind of joke here. Dude not anymore a jeff love. Legal Judiciousness is the emperor's new clothes only exists if you believe in that's exactly what I did a journal road so you know what's real by the talk on Instagram and twitter which here in here not real people real people day day in day out. You're on tour can go fucking straight. We'll do in Sacramento this Friday arlos come see me. This doesn't come out for a month and a half hold on now that I'm thinking it's French Canada so I'm like Oh man maybe their attitude or different about certain things you know what I mean because they're in their own little world. Do they love the courteous raw shit arosh it. They loved that Shit people always do that and look at the clubs that are like. I'M NOT GONNA say names but you go in Rhode these clubs. They're papering. Bring everything because it's all about whole man. We got to like not offend anybody. People want to come to get move. They either want to be laugh their ass off. Get past so you know they want a wide range of motion for the longest time comedy clubs. We're like going the opposite way of music television. I mean breaking bad USA. Just like go fuck you you to your face and then we'd have like people doing comedy. Patty cakes people want chaos why do black comics sell out the Improv because they are the only ones allowed to go up and be most most raw and real onstage for white guys forever there was this political correct bullshit that we had the fuck and follow that we couldn't talk by anything running running in comedy chaos forever. I start watching who selling tickets and it's all the edgy guys. It's the due to go up there and flame throw the room. That's what people bowl one Beta walk Patty cates bullshit and that's why these other clubs in the in L._A.. Can't sell a ticket because forever they bought into this diversity. Take everybody gets a chance. Let's keep it like fucking politically correct and they'll go see that once intellect fuck that I ain't gonNA spend a dollar on that again and they won't oh come back. You got to move people dude every other form of entertainment. Is this train wreck way of P._R.. Man Go big. Go Crazy. Go Weird. Let everybody we talk about it right. Comedy forever's like let's keep them calm dude the bigger the better the train wreck the more people want to see it. They want to see something they can talk about and that's my opinion and you see it would ticket sales in L._A.. It's why the connoisseurs rocking and the other ones are doing whatever they can to fucking survive. That's my opinion. Oh so everything happens in waves though to be fair like everyone has their time right like the comedy store was at a low point for a long time to the Improv was on fire for a long time and it was on fire for and it wasn't yeah and it wasn't like the talent was different. It was just talent shifts and who comes back to where different now though it's it's it's different now. It's just it's just it's not as if one talent APU was more valid than the other one right like I remember when I first moved to L._A.. When Schwarzen- and crew were murdering at the fucking Improv and that place was that place was unstoppable downloadable unstoppable right? It's just a moment time for that club that made sense now the commodore there will be another wave of something else. You know what I mean. I don't know what it could have but I feel like you could you could have both you could. They could do well. If you look at why wallows pushing they all were pushing something specific yeah they had different agendas had a different agenda didn't play out did Improv the laugh factory a wonderful clubs. I love playing them. They are now starting to come around then it's not about hey look cool. It's Flyer looks with this. This diverse group of people with all these cool haircuts people want come and see real shit. They did have good haircuts haircuts biracial person and it's a coup last gosh ain't nobody gives a fuck Rachel Bisexual Bisexual biracial Tuesday's come on Sam Sam when you're on the road. Though is that the when you say you're in Sacramento is at Unity Bravo conspiracy shined dude. It's great I use like I've had I used to have naughty show crowds and they were fucking great and you could go off and they were but this tinfoil hat crowd is fucking phenomenal. I remember being in Tacoma and crushing and just being like well. I'm getting Bert Kreischer laughs. That's how fucking great these crowds are Zimmerman. Show up in like tinfoil some do do you know Brooke rusher her pays for laughs. You know he pays people to plant slaps. You not know that that's a true facts. Let the Internet no he. He only sells about thirty percent of his taken. The seventy percent he he pays people pays man yeah. He didn't come to overlap overlap guy. Can I talk to him so Sam. Why are you doing straight up? Stand up on the road. Are you doing to to stand up and then at the end we do cuny with the crowd and they do palm reading on all sides million dollars. You're dead after after the show. I just let people know what's happening. I can't believe you guys didn't take advantage especially you and take advantage of the fifty one storming the fuck and bay. What do we amateurs yeah? Those are our why 'cause only punk ass amateurs think of storming area fifty one first of all I'd he doesn't believe in space or any of that shit so he ain't going Eddie doesn't believe we're not GonNa Talk Shit. I love him. He believes whatever he wants to. What do you mean hey? He's not until okay. I Love Eddie and doesn't think there's he thinks vases fair summation comes okay. Here's a joke anybody while here cool joke OK- okay a Nazi scientologists a satanist and a pedophile walk into a bar. What do they do? Wait say it again a Nazia scientologists a pedophile what sadness walk into a bar whether they do but I don't know invent NASA. That's who invented NASA Jack Parsons Arsons Walt Disney L. Ron Hubbard and fucking vom Bron were the were the four horsemen of NASA. They created NASA show Lucky Council. It's not here right now now. He's lucky he's not here right now. Because I would crush his dreams like the last time I was here. See me enjoy bride. We're talking about aliens alien and we were going so hard at Brian Yeah So. Do you believe in space I do. What is his argument for believing in space? He believes that dude. I'm like if you look Kevin Brown right. The Nazi will help them then to NASA on his we took over here right yeah so basically after the Nazis were defeated entered an expansion draft where like the United States England and Russia got the draft their favor Nazis and they're like with the number one pick of the draft. The United States states selects von Braun right took them over and he helped create NASA but why did you go like this defeated the not they weren't defeated. They just like they weren't they just they all they all ran to the Vatican. The Vatican put them in submarines and Sam to Argentina. These are just facts. There's a ton of Nazis in there's cons of not did they learn died in Argentina. They fled here. There was rotschild anyways go on but they have to leave it. There was a roth shot. His father was Boris aw I can't stop by Baker something like that and he his mother was a basically househelp made for for embarrassing Rothschild Baron Rothschild knocked him up. She fled had all this all his head Hitler. Hitler ellos Hitler Los Alamos dealer. He has his doctorate in conspiracy so deep in there it would take me weeks to just go through everything figured out. If I got high I would start to get into that world and I just want aw listen that Kanye thing I am bald. The Bible talks about Aliens Talks About Reptilian Basically Virgin Virgin. Mary got a train ran on her by allience. That's the whole story dude. That's how Jesus as an alien Jesus's Power Alien. He's like the super. He's like almost like Superman. Yeah I love you. Did I really didn't hold things but I mean within the Bible. That's what it says where do you. Where do we go when we die while you know there's a couple of things she called the it's called the Tibetan book of the dead? Okay basically almost like the story through the Matrix basically you die and when you die these beings appear and they look like your relatives. They're like hey man we love you. We've been waiting for you. Sure off the weird chip but we're going to let go I. I know that because every everything yeah watch aces I've sucked my Dick. They're going to my grandparents crowded. So how would they want to watch that so supposedly they tell you to get back into they go into the light and then the light you get reborn and you're born into this supposedly we're energy she packs and if you look at the moon there's some show with the moon the moon a little crazy dude you ever notice that some the Moon fucking the moon moon is like nothing else in the universe in our galaxy is the only thing that has a perfect orbit. We never see the other side of the moon. It's it's wise it there. It's too big it does even make sense. Why it's there too big? Law People think it's a fucking energy collector dude now right that when you die your energy goes goes up there. These lizard people feed off our energy glaxo to now. Here's a whole thing the game pacman right you ever played pacman when Pacmans close was it was a look like a fucking mood so you got these ghosts going around when PAC man eats at what happened it goes back into the regenerator and gets reborn okay. This is this is this is accounts here. Hugh kicked you in the face. This is this is too much. You're going to man in the moon. I'm just saying there are shit like that that the moon moon is just a big beautiful thing that that that we like to look at that's all it is just a planet sure for sure you're talking about chicks and working out and not wearing andy socks. There's only there's only two ways to go yeah. They're talking about conspiracy theories or chicks working economic sneakers. There's no middle ground but anything you've got people up to conspiracy. I find it interesting. No it is interesting but also it's just it's just as valid as it's not odd valid to me like like anything else in the world. That's ever pay too much attention. Spe spaces real in the moon's wheel you know but but the but it's fun no no no. That's as valid as his point. That's what I'm saying like like. The Guy that says fucking the moon is fake is just as valid to me is the guy that's no scientists to be. I'm just not going to because I just don't have time I just I'm like okay great right. It's fine why not gonNA put Energy and argument but you are though no. I know there's I guess okay. Have you been up. There not data's saying how do you know what it asks. The Moon is in our why believed that does the Moon in the sky sure but but if somebody goes in sucking fools like pacman treatment dude sometimes I feel like I can see the Lizard Lizard people late at night on the moon. It's just looking down in our atmosphere. One time I jerked off just looking at the moon. It was so pretty the task force the crevice has got me fuck I well. That's all fake Bro. What can I tell you some real shit wait? Let me tell you something not to get too. Let's get off conspiracy theory because it bothered me my special. I talk all about the stuff it's available at Jesus Second Second Twenty minutes Sam but so when they do you like the Buzz Aldrin like the moon landings they whole anniversary. Do you think they never I see it. I just laugh because I laugh at it. Because I think of you okay. Just say let me just say watch watches the biggest thing you what when you do interviews do they always want to ask you about. They want to ask you about your U._F._C.. Fighting Not really why ask you about your special. I'll do it. Why issue about the do you find yourself talking a lot about that in interviews? Do you do that honestly yeah. This guy went to the fucking moon and talked talked about it one time he did one interview and he's never done an interview again on it. You're telling me you fucking mood and he did what any real the. How do we know if that's true? Do you only wanted her that before too. Why would you ever want to talk about it? What if he he doesn't want to talk about to talk but maybe there's not much talk about it? He's like he's like it's sandy gets fucking walk-in. Hey Dude you've heard this you can relate to this. I'm GONNA give you. I'm just just to be devil's. Advocate is what you do to think about it like this. You know the first guy that climbed and Moslem Jaro you know. How do you know how long he spent about the top along five minutes yeah okay so sometimes the journey is greater than the accomplishment you know that in comedy we taking climate? It's the climb listen listen. He's the first my point is my point is just like anything else in comedy and in life sometimes times when you achieve the thing the journey was so much stronger that it's kind of almost a letdown when it happens so there's something that saddens you a little bit about getting a special about getting a T._v.. Spot about getting reach dude. Sometimes these things listen. Hey listen you WanNa play devil's advocate. The moon is made of cheese and Lizard people. I'm saying cheese. It is hollow to satellite. It's good as an alien Predator Gouda or goat. So do you know that all the fucking wait hold on. Let me finish let me finish when you achieve things. Sometimes they're not as satisfying as as you thought they were going to be when you achieve something so great like that if you do believe that don't you think that there's a part of him. That was like I don't know man. It was incredible. What what you say here? Here's here's the other thing. What do you want to say about it but here's the one in which I was like? I think he has an ego where like he's the only guy moon hot slightly. He's living cells sells on the walls and he's given duty. Listen to me. Listen to me saying sometimes the journey is so wonderful. You can't express it. Why is he showing up to these event because he gets paid extra he gets paid? How's he supposed to make money makes no was he's answering questions about the moon at these events though but he's never given an interval whoa interviews suck they fucking suck? Do they fucking throw this quote unquote the greatest accomplishment after I know you know what you've talked about it one time. Something's very cool about it. I find it cool cool. What do you want you want them on the today show what are not why why would he want to do someone sitting taught about its accomplishment? It's not like he ran off fucking a one minute mile or two or four minute mile. I'm talking about one dude or a couple dudes. I praise people ever go on the move this giant thing that's been made this cute longest moment in the Cold War for this guy's done one interview after he landed why it makes no sense. You guys done interviews. Maybe he's shy he does not have you guys okay had the other guys on interviews. I haven't really looked into that well. That's something we definitely need to look into. What if he's the one guy that's like? I don't really want to introvert. Don't interview overview. He's like butter. What is that? He punched that guy face really plausible. If he's only done one interview I'll say that's shady as fuck eighty eighty one view what interview do have podcast material for you. After moon landing that's IT and they can't agree on anything and after they land they can't agree. One guy says he saw stars the other ones I got. We didn't see her D.. We start there like just like it's time out time out so we didn't land on the moon is what you're saying. I if you really wanted what I believe the Hollywood right. I think that was faked. I think we were actually early on every planet with some advanced technology that was fake the further cold warm the bullshit just to beat the Russians and they can't fuck and really show Louis everything we got 'cause it's super advance. This is the problem with conspiracy theories. There's no problem there's no. There's no way to prove it's impossible. It's a never ending fight. You'd have to scour the Internet in libraries Mary's for months and months and months and months even find out if if that's true because he might have done a million interviews but you wouldn't know the only way how would you know because I've studied it where on the Internet yeah forever providing well news though but here's the thing maybe if you go versus flat right. Is there a flat I found you can you can disprove that is if you've never done it to me. We live in the simulation. I'm not a flat Earth Guy. I respect the flat. Earth people relieve whatever he wants to uh-huh wherever you want I believe we live in a simulation yes so we live in a simulation and the thing we live on is is not flat. I don't know what we live. I I'm telling you I believe we live with an odd ball being very live on a ball. Why do I think we live in a ball because I was told that as a kid I never did any study and everyone's like well? What about this go about that video about this video? There's all sorts of fucking shit fish. I lands all that stuff. I think we live on a ball. Why because I was told as a kid I have done no research on my own any of the studies that say any of the fuck and formulas that they tell you to tell you that it's a ball I have done none of it and ninety ninety nine percent of the people who call me crazy have done no research either? Were just regurgitating what you were told as a kid. I am fine with it being in a ball. I believe we live in a simulation okay. I respect that but no one's calling you crazy in here. No no not here people you think people call you crazy here. This is a safe place. Yeah here's safe place. This is so say place. Fuck it. I'm just Bruce Lee fighting eighty gram and social safe place yeah now yeah yeah let me tell you let me tell you let me talk chicks and working and working out and let me give you let me give you one little piece of not conspiracy anything at all but it's it's relative to where we're talking about energy in the universe. This is Kinda cool. Luke Perry was in Tarantino's movie. It was his last role. I just watched it and it made me sad. It was like Menez satisfied. That dude passed away you know and then it was at home and I was looking at Luke Perry and just kind of doing research on him for fun because you know I don't know whatever and anyway his there was alive. Put out to world that he was cremated and and spread it on ashes of his farm in Tennessee his daughter and this is provable cheated interview recently and said that was not true. I don't even know who said said that. He was never cremated. They put him in. What's called an Infiniti suit? Do you know what this is. No this is fucking why well it's not it's not it's not as amazing. It's kind of beautiful. There's there's this guy that scientists just about this Infiniti suit that says we filled toxins. Our bodies are loaded with toxins and that's a fact right and your toxins whether you're burnt or put in the ground are pushed out in the universe verse in in a very bad way they said toxins bleed out in the mushroom soup. It's called infinity suit. So what happens is you get wrapped in buried in this and and mushrooms and other other you can you can pretty much make any kind of herb or anything fungal grow on you to to take the toxins to use them for their growth instead of putting them back out into the universe and then you will turn into a fucking garden a human guarded. I lost Article Talk to all of that. That's how he got married at his farm in Tennessee but just the united coughing because you're GONNA no no no no no no. You're in the earth. You're just yet they. They ran on the earth site right. I I always tell you chopped up and then put in like some going to fuck mulch yeah for tree yeah but I'll do that infinity shoe so here's what's crazy an Fini's I want to finish suit and then bury me and Lower Canaan you WanNa be in Laurel Canyon near record studio just like somewhere along. What have we fucking dude because that's too busy too much going on? I WANNA be out in the middle of nowhere and there's a lot of land in this country in the middle of the night. I WANNA be Montana Montana flat boy. Hey Fuck you. It's not flat at all well first of all and second of all. It's not boring. It's fucking beautiful mountains up there and I'm from Denver. Though you know be cool same our say mountain range far. I know Oh dude upper. It's flat and it's the same range Montana's gorgeous arcus bury yourself in Colorado out by the airport conspiracy theory. Let's not get into the airport. Maria Grays on the walls out They would gas shoe wants the land she owned land by yeah tired of it and you know that the airport was built once and then built again you know I think it's weird that the queen just came out and said she's a related to the Prophet Mohammad. Yeah what's up with that Shit Dude on Inaki doc on Inaki they created us and then they created needed a show weird. Do these paintings paint the whole story. The fact that all this attention has been brought to them and they haven't taken down says everything phone don't care people because if you cared enough you look what happened at the Improv people complain about those stupid fucking paintings and they took down finally Sinaville's the day finally painted over him. Oh the Dolphin guy all the island by the way they got casino the shit out of a dolphin you go down to the beaches he he can paint a fucking dolphin like Wales Wales. No It's Wales that thing fell on the guy the mating killed that's right. It doesn't make sense it does make sense no no not not not just not just the guy that native emily not just the guy that made it all. He was the fucking engine he was the brains behind. It wasn't just like a worker. It was like the the man that had the idea for the Bronco two in the air like this whole thing that someone else died two around it when they're installment that will guide so people were watching build this like I want you pulling out that much land yeah. Why are you pulling out all this land? It doesn't make sense for the amount of construction doing why they ended up full attention into the wall at D._I._A.. Because this is okay that's magazine Brown tunnels is that they want to scare. They want to scare away. Tourism did bring it's too. It just overpopulated back to the garden what does that. I think that was one of my bags at fell out on one of my bags. When I was going to Denver one time that's hey to? That's the creepiest not oh it is. That is the airport the background yeah wow that's awesome anyway. Let me let me jump backwards off. You're fucking phone trip to hear US okay. I don't care about the chicks. We're here for us. You're going to be very infinity suit right to be buried one. You just changed my life dude. Thank you so much ado about money you know. Can I use Promo code to that fire and the K- keg twenty percents it also might be able to go to infinity dot com use the Promo Code fighter in the Rock to get twenty percents off and if we do mushrooms and other spores. We're GONNA get you more soon but go to infinity. Eh Dot Com by the way is infinity should do they sell it now. It says over five thousand dollars. That's five Jeez dude little so far less uber regular burials. That's how much regular game of death look at the suit they put you in like. It's a weird thing like let me see go whereas go back up. Go the get up more more hold on Koa. Some weird gimped Shelia Barry Mitchell eyes wide shut death scroll out the bullet points here. Here's the thing though let's say the three of US die in here and cat and Jenner like all right. We'll just put them in the yards back here. You can't just have him dead. Bodies all over the damn place care like real wants to come back amount shown. What do you mean you can't have that we can no? You can't just bury a dead body in your backyard. It's not how do you have to have buried legally somewhere. Yes you have to get buried within within the laws of where bodies can be very own property. You can bare yourself on your own property so my girl could bury yourself here you own it. What are you talking of course you can? I don't think so do do you. Have you bury yourself here under this table you can you can be buried in your own backyard the Asian people asking for them for all dude. You just answered your own question. Keep turning to Asian people because they have the answers they made the computers. They're searching on. They know what the fuck are talking about. They have the inside walls in California embalming required by law to have a permit to bare yourself in your backyard. That's odd dude and this. I Love Libertarians. Why do I need a permit to bury myself? Pay The government dollars on the way out bearing yourself on fucking sunset. Why no we're not talking to you talking about my own land they tell you why let me tell you maybe Asti because your your your land is your land in the Orlando? It's not monitor your land is my land because you never really own the land and the you own just because it's yours. You're still renting it from from the government. It's just because you only pay it off. Okay you buy a house cash. What do you have to pay every year? What are the what's that called you of interest? You have what no no. What do you pay every year to home taxes? You pay taxes right. You'll never not pay taxes on fucking property. You go just because you own. It doesn't mean it's yours you're still paying to rent that land and they say you own it outright as you are allowed to put shit on it yeah but they still only physical for that. Yes they still own the loan. The property thirty on the land owned a stuff on top of the grass. They owned The fucking earth. You'll never on the earth. You want some crazy do you Queen Elizabeth. Birth owns technically all the United States all of Canada all the U._K.. All of Australia and all of New Zealand she technically in class owns it all which means that he would value she technically that meets you can't like just runamuck. Here's the thing did their guns. She can't sell Australia. WanNa keep guns in case she come by just that Peop- I think I read somewhere that this is crazy but that that she actually gets a percentage of our taxes. Do you know the I._R._S.. Is Not a U._S.. Government department it is a private department owned by a foreign born and not that you don't pay your taxes to the U._S.. Government you pay to a foreign entity and then what happens with that money. I believe the I._R._S. is operated by the United States government nine notes not yes it. Is You want. We'll say my taxes Santino doing this. Look Jim Bro. It's I._R._S.. I think it's I._R._S.. About isn't it Irs.gov so that means okay who runs it. Look it up comedian. I B F or the third party banking system that makes I._B._M.. For ex-ibf or w world banking some argue the I._R._S. is not nature of the United States but rather private corporation created by positive law an act of Congress and that therefore does not the thirty enforce Internal Revenue Code. That's a some people think that doesn't say trust me. What do you mean? I can't just trust you WANNA fax. The I._R._S. has shown an outside our country see look at it. This is this is this is people making this up such yeah but that's our taxes taxes. Go No taxes we know where goes goes to a private entity to fix the roads right. Yeah the United States Treasury collect taxes to the Internal Revenue Service. That's the Department of Treasury. Wouldn't it be cool if you knew a guy who actually knew all this shit oh no yeah it goes here like you knew very fact. There's somebody there's a group of people that because again the I._R._S. and see its beginnings see look at it when it was when it was started at the Federal Federal Reserve Act in a personal income tax was signed by Woodrow Wilson on Christmas Eve in the dead of night. When everybody was home for the holidays and there was no vote on them they were just put out by that by this group of bankers and the it's basically called A it's a book called the creature of Jekyll Island and and it was basically international bankers and that was what a lot of people think the civil war was about slavery it really wasn't it was about it was about the Federal Federal Reserve and a centralized bank and that the British and I believe Spain or France where come on the side of the South and all they had to do was agree that if they would have have a centralized bank that the British and French or Spanish would come in on the side of the UH south while you've been up Santino? There's gotta be a theory behind the theory behind all this is if you talk about it enough and you have enough if you if you just if you read enough of it and you believe enough of it it is true. This is my point who knows if anything if anything you don't know it's true I know I know you don't know you know. I don't know I love you with all my heart. I've you know I do know you you've read you've just read things written by whom I just read. Multiple people doing multiple holiday valid then. How do we know anything point so it's all bullshit? Everything's bullshit. Most Shit is both things. Most Shit is bullshit. Bullshit Bullshit cheers does is bullsh- okay. I will accept that because they call things are bullshit. If you're just saying kings bullshit bullshit and then I love you about my heart think about it like crazy who who who've out who vouch who is articles that you've read that how they've hours so so the say we we did not get independence in seventeen seventy six. That's all bull shit. That's all bullshit. We don't know that we don't know we don't know don't know okay our respect that because if you're saying all informations Che's bullshit our respect for the most part they might information is most shit is not just conspiracy theory. Here's why I say bullshit because because you what you're saying is bullshit just as much as what were told his bullshit wrecked. That's my point. They didn't say no. That's so you you saying that the Queen owns all these countries is just as valid as someone going there was we were at peace with the Indians when they took out when we took over the land I totally fine with that if you're telling me all information or most information bullshit bullshit bullshit. That's why it's hard for me to believe anything because if you say things if we all say things enough we all believe let me ask you cindy. What do you believe in do almost nothing? I'm being serious. I believe in almost nothing this nothing so I believe I believe I believe in I believe in I know no. I don't believe in believing Karaoke doesn't even exist you. We don't believe that Iraq the fucking God damn comedy jam at Fuck Considering Knowsley chance you rock video crush. What do I believe? Do you believe in. I I believe in I don't I don't believe in fate. I believe that we are I believe in self choice. I believe we all have all this stuff. You're listening is some weird kind of like energy shit no shade actual. I believe humans I believe humans may choices to move seamlessly through the fucking universe and you make mistakes. You do things things that are positive for you. That's that's it. Yes we are metaphysical. That's what we are seeing like D- believe like in the Jeff was actually shot. Do you believe do you believe in nineteen ninety two the U._S.. Dream Team or whatever year was as long ago time. Do you believe Evatt. nope made up. Okay cool. I I totally cool what you're saying. I'm cool that I think everything is happening and nothing is happening <music> dude. Do you believe allied Bro. No no if we're simulation like SAM says we are. We're sending you believe that too of course but then oh you don't know vander. Do you believe that my album is available for sale on Friday. We don't know in fact. Check it out coats in fact I would tell everyone watching the show right now that that's not true that Sam album is not available but then he's no more maybe maybe I should investigate and he should priori and I tell you no doubt it. I doubt it 'cause most things are both saying that doesn't believe in it China linked to check in with him and he gets hotter in here by the way I know it's working. They're not in our unit and if we open the door with help moans. It sounds too much sense. Guys are out there tic TAC type in Google stuff anytime you're in a production office. All they're doing is googling ball. They're working on. You know why why Samuel exactly who are they saying man shadow man cat. None of these people are employed by anybody. They just show up my special. What do you guys go to? Here's what it is. I think he's crazy. What is he has very strong opinions? I think a lot of people do woo Hoo. You Hook Admiral Yeah. What do we believe? Do you believe how Santino believes it's fine. What do you think Chen wouldn't honestly I'm trying to figure out the temperature here the older I get the more I don't believe in a lot of stuff and I just don't know what's going on? We're on the same page yeah the more stuff I learned the more like shit so so so so Schmo Sheldon. Let me finish. Let's let's pair brains and you and I right do you what do you what do you really believe in and on a very very baseline level. I'm not talking about the depths of J._F._k.. I mean just on a base chin. Believe in the end baseline level when you lay your head down at night what really what do you really believe in. I believe like family. The bad Bam loves you simple nonsense. That's what I'm saying. I believe in trying to make myself in those around me. Real feel good and that's almost do you believe almost all I've got and that the U._S.. Government faked weapons of mass destruction to go into a foreign country. Do you believe that happened. I do believe that okay so I mean what are we talking about because I don't believe in anything a lack but I sense that I think the government does I don't no matter knows move's for yeah for the greater good essentially the greater good for the country of the greater good of the country four people yeah well. Thank thank God we all hope to be those people yeah. You're not bordering unless you fuck your way into it. Hey Sammy eighty the ambassador hours eight at the that Ping Pong pizza places exist do not talking about Mandela factor yeah. It doesn't exist the things you think it exists but it does not pizza place where Kids Ping Pong Pizza See. How do I know it's real because you said it's real try it bro? I hated last night the comedy store whereas it now in my belly the shit and that's another bullshit lie they fed us at our stomachs are processing food lie lies. That's a lie. Let's go to current event. That's ally. Do you see what I'm doing. Yes I love you. Are you got a whole a lot of tabs open dog lighter. Let's go at life and death on the other of ood okay. Let you read it. I was hey guys Brennan Redden shop here for stitch fix you know how would you describe your look. In one word casual sophisticated playful however you dress take take all the thinking out of it stood fits is an expert personal stylist that can help you look your best. Whenever you're style is personal styles like fingerprint? It's got to be your own liquid me pink shirt on no socks what up I could use stitch fix so I look better day in day out. Sticks Fitch got. You're looking incorrect. 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You never have to think about looking good ever again with stitch fix get start at stitch fix dot com slash fighter get twenty five percent off when you keep everything in your box that sticks fix dot com slash fighter heider look good stash fix sit ditch stitch fix dot com slash fighter you know at thirty six years old my teeth are starting to get a little crowded a little jumbled up and you know that happens because when you get older your teeth go you know what we want to move around a little bit WanNa wiggle around Brian not here he'd be the perfect poster boy for this Brian Teeth were terrible. They were awful worst. I've ever seen was brown side all the way back but you're Brian's teeth now. Flawless flawless thanks to candidate candidate is an orthodontist who is license in your state and creates a treatment plan and four you and Canada only uses expense orthodontist. They create a three d preview of what the final results will look like and that's what they did for me because I need to get my fronts. These chocolates lined up line them up. All you do is approve it and guess what can cost sixty five percent less than braces you gonNA rock. Braces aces at thirty five now man. You're definitely not save thousands thousands have straighter brighter teeth in an averaged a six month no one what should I of messed up grill. There's no excuses there's no excuses and thanks for the fighting the kid I'm excited to get my clear liners from Canada and get these sentiments out all right. I'm speaking my frigging bottom teeth. You guys only one step away getting straight abroad not to learn more at candid co dot dot com slash fighter use code fighter to get seventy five dollars off to get your grill fix. What's it worth man? What's it worth year straight teeth priceless us? That's candid co dot com slash fighter goad fighter for seventy five dollars off candy co Dot Com slash fighter fix your grill so a ten year old boy is currently being charged for assault for playing a dodgeball game boy so he was in school they were playing dodge ball and there was one kid who's news has some sort of disease that basically if his head gets hit he gets fucked up with all real so why exactly so the apparently it's happened in the past where he's played dodgeball. This very game has gone hit in the head and he'd suffer several injuries teachers didn't take him out of this game aim this time around a kid was playing accidentally threw the ball and it landed on his head. The mother of that child is now saying that that kid did it on purpose and that Ah what's the dodgeball is that the kid the kid and now he's being charged for assault Moore. She's black. It's unbelievable to me watching all white school school. It says he's the only black person I'm kidding. Ha No but you know what you know. What it really is? Oh keeps growing. The school knew that he had a brain condition. They shouldn't have let him play bud must be even near but if they knew he had the condition and the mother was like he wants to wants to play well. Then you die you die but you gotta be fucking if dogs laws live wrong if you WANNA fuck him play dodgeball with the kids and you have a condition that you might dissenting for boxers like you know recently two boxes died. It's unbelievable should have like that's that's they know the repercussions Russians they just said look for onto the pitcher Linley and her son are black while the other child in the incident is white there you go how'd you my whole thing is like I hate when adults apply apply adult Shit to children when you have a ten year old and they're like charging him with like sexual harass. It's like he's ten like trying to like cripple cripple these kids before they're even adult hit him with these fuck in charge. It's all circumstantial because look like this you know about this story. Those kids are going to be charged as adults those kids through that rock over the highway and and killed that guy they should yeah well but see that's funny so kids will be kids. I did fucked up shit. We used to throw rocks and Doodoo fucked up Shit but they threw a rock so big. Dan went through his windshield and killed them. Hold on hold on with the intention to kill wrong incorrect. These kids are teenagers. They threw the rocks and they wanted to fuck up a car here. Have you seen the thirteen fifty museum attacks Jingle died Elo laughing my ass well. Do I mean I'm not. I'm not CIT Fourteen off. If I took a giant boulder highway hit a car someone's GonNa get your boy. You're a big boy now you are you. Are you at fourteen. Not I was a late bloomer. He was huge four when he was Iraq until seventeen. Yeah I was like I was not a small three hundred eighty five pounds when he was nine fact fattest kid in the neighborhood black and white that was about black and white by the way more than anything in the world. The articles should have been called the race just because the school was trying to cover their ass for having this child in that type of situation blaming on the kid that kids should even be at that school. He should be somewhere special where they can like mine term the whole he's just gotta be. You just can't get hit in the head. I mean you go to school dodgeball. You just can't play Jim Sports. We had a kid that had to sit out for gym. We tag he had to sit out for gym and he complained about it. I WANNA play he couldn't he had a condition that ticker uh he had a bad ticker and they couldn't complain. I WanNa play on your said. No that's it. You don't get the fucking play. We don't you can't die here. We can't afford that. We can't even afford lunch you. You can't die here the discussion what else so a Amazon delivery person stole somebody's dog after delivering their packet packet drops pisses me off this fat Wiener Dog yes. That's the dog say want that thing. What do you mean that's so cute dog as you fucking Jerk Jota Dog August fat we hey that's so lovable one no but then somebody loves that animal bro Just like you love your child if someone took your kids not good looking what else took your kid? Their kid is a little goon Mike. It'll be a little refried renew. Your kid is a little um your little pinto beans someone could steal him and you and some other guy would go who would steal that ugly fuck and then you go. That's my head first of all fat wiener dog here compared. Someone's the same thing looking at fucking cute things we can do with them so the woman who took the dog later posted onto craigslist that the dog was on sale for one hundred dollars. Oh my God she who it was neighbors ring alarm they had the camera system set up when they found out at their neighbor's dog was missing. They said Oh we saw somebody with your dog. Does this look familiar and they realized it was the person dropping off their Amazon Pass shady so the woman was found arrested and the dog is returned so it's fan who she really you should be able to beat people up in public for that. You should be able to go back to public punishments along floggings Agasi but also weeded out put up a fight though you know here's my legs are so small. They're stupid. That's my point listen. You're upsetting some wiener dog people due to their like the Trans Trans your hordes fuck with we need people all they show up when you don't have people come out to support their claws dude I sell out fucking shows doing just fat wiener dog convention they kill and they pay really well. uh-huh so a couple of days ago armie hammer because a video of his son sucking on his toes was posted onto instagram program and a lot of people had a lot of mixed feelings about it so stupid known in has kids but not normal so he joked around going for it salt also minutes the kids to these are the hammer hammer is pretty good looking fucking toes for a long time Abe Weird <unk> by the way way longer than seven minutes if I did I can't tow suck down by two three hundred pound chicks. We were just at a party like we suck your. I'm like cross off the list list just suck into through barbecue sauce made it right foot ranch turned on by no aw just like hey dude. I'm making dreams. Come true. That's not turning anybody. I'm getting your feet sucked yeah. It's not my random people in Public Benin five. Hey give me a power for in one thousand nine hundred five minute time so people are freaking out over this but it's so stupid the kids just fucking around sexual sexual no. It's not his kid his neighbor's kid. That's why it's kidnapped him. Neighbors have video. That's my point like why even do you wash your son shops points. You wouldn't post some weird shit like if your kid was looking on your toes. You're not posing that if you did I'm calling you go bro. Take that down now. Yeah I do it but it's harmless like I so to your point. I don't give a fuck no but it was nothing sexual about this MS also feet. I think people it goes out because it's a two year old. Being like dad can't celebres dead feet. It's just weird but it's it's nothing. There's nothing I'm not. I'm not posing tonight. Why is Racing Hammer? Only getting seventeen hundred likes your movie star Riposte. That's reports his his look up. What his was his injury are? Probably they're probably a million over a million views of people complaining. There's probably GonNa be a trend now. The Internet people in their kids sucked our toes. I'm going to post all about it or post shoe dog sick and it tells you something about a Weiner dog. fucking tells the story right. He knows just a story about like this. Can we take a second real quick to think about this. Let's go back up one point. Two million people follow okay armie. Hammer is a bona fide movie star right in our friend. KRISTALINA has one point seven and million followers noise almost a million here too. Are you yeah congratulations. Thank you and you don't deserve any of the following me follow. You know you know what it really is to think about that. I'm just putting a perspective one point seven Chris made his career solely on a stand up and it impresses me. This guy is in fucking -Til Shows T._v.. Shows did not get him the audience that he's got him. Stand up and podcasting unattainable chicks were showing up buck audio. Hold eatable wasn't didn't avenue audience but still on on social media yeah. He's so fucking funny on their yes. That's how it's gone. That's my point is is does we just saw the weight of that is all I'm saying this guy is shown on movie screens around the fucking ball. What is what does this thing? Whatever you whatever we want to be where that'd be whatever John Do you want a Burrito Leo giant just I'm just saying sometimes I think about that and I go man? That's crazy how the fucking how the Internet works who can who half the fucking internet fine but none of those are real I know people he performed Rogan because of the podcast cast and the fight stuff right magnetic literally foam before humor and he puts content humorous content on their Joe's MAG like imagine this imagine egis Chris got in a fucking EMINEM rap video. We did a instagram video. y'All yeah yes nuts. That wasn't Eminem. I am now we know was not know anything see. What's the next one? Let's see so oh hot in here this crushing very very popular youtuber. He was popular Youtuber. This guy has eleven million subscribers ought to be die into. Why are they be diet? He did he can mackenzie went on paragliding and never came back so they've found out okay it should should he should be back by now. So they took US GPS coordinates. They found him somewhere in the mountains crashed so they picked him up like later that night. That is so sad. I don't want to say anything negative because that's very tragic. I know his friends and family. That's hurtful. That said I can't just died man. How do we know he died? That's okay there you go now. This is what I do like. Where is he really Santino? The other thing don't Paraguay but also again again. Don't peer is this. What is this this is Barstool polcy paragliding thing recently capitalize this crazy paragliding is don't do that? Go Fuck made on so it's within like fake you hiking control yourself that that professional but still not professional style it. He was a pilot he was like A. I'm pretty sure he was pretty good period but is that but also what do we also don't pair but can I can. I tell you something though nerve wracking so awesome it does right but it's too narrow no but it's the same thing as those guys the bird suit things exactly same kind of chaos so that if you're talking about it nope atone if you're dope at no but don't shop but don't go pat it. Why wouldn't you do it because the die but like this used to fight yeah you could die in a fight? Oh yeah named U._F._C. fighter ever died didn't he just fucking die walk saying no but there's a guy for weigh ins have died. nope name one the guys in Brazil not new citizen Brazil's. That's some I'm bullshit jungle fight racist. That's the league join of being racist. He didn't sound racist. He said Right Look Jungle People Holy Shit Shop. You'RE GONNA get some kickback Shangahi fighting the league. Do these youtubers though like that's so sad. I don't like to hear that but don't care guides so my son my son will. He doesn't have kids but there's a youtube channel. This kid is names like Alex some shit. He's a number one health Alex. He's he's like eight. He's the no one youtuber most money any he's eight. He unravels off toys. I seen it and my son Goes Papa. I want this. This firetruck and I'm like yeah. Public Electric is no no I went to Paul Waltraud Alex firetruck who Alex is maybe a friend in school and then so I find it right at the store I surprise them. I find it and I give it to him. And I'm Mike Right now. Papa Le- let me show you how to do stuff and he was Nuno and new Avery Trinket in and Oh my God every knew exactly how to work this thing all from this fucking kid and his video look at this dude. It said he makes twenty two million a year. Did you just see that twenty two million playing with toys well. Here's what makes me nauseous ashes about this. He's not making parents rushing yeah. That's what discussing his mom tolkien role now. You can't do it. No this is youtube. That's that's that's movies and television wrong. There's a law that there's so when you're under eighteen commercial when you're under eighteen in your and you are earning money towards your name or towards a trust it has to be put in protect trust by the fucking by the government parents are not allowed to touch. My son did like some. He literally can't tell us that money it can. After how did you really Shady Fato Dude. What are your son do porno no his kids born again? It's Oh Hollywood popular again out here. Oh Yeah Baby. He's the highest paid Youtube Star <hes>. It's crazy man this little fuck just so you know that Guy Dr X.. Has that Song Billboard Number One twenty two weeks in a row of all time of all time no song no Beatles the Michael Jackson. Nobody has been bigger than this different time though now isn't it it doesn't matter the point is that's insane to think how long no it's not by the way I think back then stayed Don number one charts for weeks in charts. Her lies allies. I mean gradings are lie charter like they are having ward shows or lie. Do you know how how do you know how they tell. Elements Radio Ratings they give a guy they get people. This this device you hook it up to your like pants and wherever you walk walk it records and sends the data back then they tell you who who's getting fucking listeners and it's all bullshit dude the fucking on Nielsen Boxes. Have you ever manny buddy wouldn't they don't exist anymore Nielsen. They haven't existed in years and years and years they don't exactly they they still use it. You know even more even more deep conspiracy. They're stealing information from each box. That's put in a home each box that put an tracking all information when you get a box from a cable company. You're you're automatically signing an agreement that they never heard that they can track your day with more reliable than this Neilson Neilson that yeah that was that was that they want to take a countrywide average. That's what that was about Alexa fullness but also all right so this falls me who gives a fuck. I'm not saying to give a fuck. I'm just I'm just smelling. That's how they track. What you're watching pretty accurate see? How does how does have T._V.'s martyrdom tracking much different than what I'm talking now? There's talking about ratings yeah but ratings are accumulated from these boxes are feeding information back to a server so we find that I'm not saying you're not just reading smart TV. I talked to my mom does not have a smart T._v.. Older people do not have smart T._V.'s. They're telling you that they'll listen. Listen listen the people that still use bunny ears TV they don't. They don't count anymore because Neilson Neilson doesn't doesn't she. Has these this old cable box yeah. We don't want her know. If there's a cable feed they could track but the old people that just use bunny ears to a television people that still you see that all right. I hope he is all I'm telling you better info than this bullshit. They've been put now now. What does that regular television with just antennas just regular oil Tenneco how do they how do they tell T._v.? Ratings readings. How do they accumulate T._v.? Ratings how do they raise their track there. There you go diaries Nielsen Ratings. It still says it doesn't exist anymore. I'm telling you Callin- show they were. They were really banking on they a to Nielsen boxes they don't exist anymore. I'm telling you they don't Google Dave kind of but maybe not the boxes but they've done something with the rating because they still account they take them to the C.. R. B. Five thousand one hundred household. What does that doe? How what is the system? I'm not saying what's right or wrong. Everyone they're just taking off a little some of people right so what they do is an algorithm tracks a certain number of people around the globe at changes on a constant basis over who they're tracking racking and that averages accumulated says that right there how R._T._D.. Do Okay that's in the BBC talk in the United States. How do you go down one? How does this one it's interesting? I think it's all bullshit but it's all done away. No one cares do they yeah because now we see the ratings. I know how many hits this getting. I see views. You can't fake those views you can't. That's why Netflix Amazon programs on primes coming on you can fake the views any comics who by views on the videos no name name name name. I'm never you gotTA. Wait a minute you guys at by hits Nope. I say that yes you did or did I not say that and I take real because I know someone that by real I know and I'll call him out. Who Bryan callen? Do you think anybody watches any trash that he puts out. Whether it's standup or on here I know people that literally put a piece of paper over the computer. They just see you and they know how to tune it out so they don't hear him anymore. Because it's fucking trash the fans no the red rocket should be in this chair all the time. Let's ex Brian. Kelly we started Hashtag. Magnet says no more Brian No more Brian. Please because we're tired is bullshit. I'm about to lose seventy pounds in here. You are more you use it. You fat fat up to three one more. That's making headlines Shit Juergen Covering Komodos medical expenses thirty thousand dollars something like that. Can I tell you something you badly. He didn't want this out really in the eye Joe's everywhere. This would annoy Joe to know that it's getting circulated around because he probably did it as cool quiet thing yeah. I gotTa talk about she did <hes> she's the one that I'm sure I'm sure he didn't love that Josie Kinda guy that does does things for other people not so other people know about it dude. That's awesome either homeless or probably killed myself well then. Let's that's that people can say that a lot a lot a bunch but I'm just thinking about all the people whose careers are just a booming because a rogan percent I do I oh I oh so much of that guy because he's I'm your ten percent. I'm not saying you have to pay ten percent early. Dude I get thirty five percent mother fucker nor it. No you know what I I won't get too into it but I just think like. There's some people that do things for other people because they want everybody to know and I. It sounds like I'm pandering but it's true. He does a lot of things for people that no one talks about that we we we know internally that we don't even talk about sexually both sexually. I mean you know look at me. Look at me. That's either you love your man Antigua. Are you back on the road. Are you still do this. No no this this ditch you for Chapelle. Yeah Yeah Yeah D- asked me goes dude you. There should go with chapelle US anti Santino 'cause that was going on in the row with them and then he said I think I'm going to show to this guy. Chapelle Dave Chapelle did his website Jay Shaab. When is this come out by the way who today nineteen? Oh sorry guys in catches down view view remember a six months a dude sorry do I know this week is Saint Louis. It's my last date for four months because I'm shooting T._v.. Show so please TV show of the helium F._X.. With little dicky me and little dig your hey on T._v.. Show together. No you cannot be Sam. I love little dicky's my Fav- oh you want me to meet him. You you want you want you want you to meet him. I don't know I don't know what to do with this. I just want you know I love little dicky. I Love Lil dicky. Also what am I put you guys on the show done John Fund it would be if I got cat and Chin on the show and I would love to get them on the show. Yes I'm shooting for no I had to and a half months or three months and I'm not going to be on the robot. You can sexual. I'm getting sexual. No it's about little dicky move into. It's about his life a white Jew from philly moves to Larry David but yeah kind of wrap curb there you go hip hop curb so comes weekend helium and Saint Louis I'll be that's my last date for a long time Saint Louis. Have you done it before. No no never met her next week. Are you really you know what I'm saying little trail each other. We did Phoenix right after each other. We did another club same agent. No no no. I just want to be him so I said get his date sandwich work in the this week. I'm going to be a Har- lows in Sacramento then the following week Guy I'm in I'm in Indianapolis and I'm in Saint Louis and you check out my special for free. Go to Samsara go to YouTube dot com backlash Sam Tripoli Zero Fox Armageddon available for free. If you want the album a drops on Friday check it out. Go get it since one of the best the reason I got certain sand. Give them some respect. I'll be in Nashville starting tomorrow dates. Let me read Your Day tomorrow. Thursday Friday Sam Nashville Zanies okay. I'm going to be reading. Please do okay tomorrow. Nash Real Nice adapt from F- family. I thought that's really good okay. Go ahead. I know SPA now shrill tomorrow the weekend that'll be a poor lead eight fifty eight seventeen. That'll be the goal Qadri casino dot a Gambler Blur Hood Oroville California thirty first. That'll be a Houston nine twenty nine twenty one dead. I loved under because it's my home. Ha Died Twenty six twenty eight turned into a fucking. I got all the day's facts dot com natural see you tomorrow Thursday Friday Saturday zanies get on them Portland Dot Com and we're just releasing and I'm not doing just Sam's here. We're really sorry fifty one K collapse tomorrow by P._M.. Pacific acidic get them listen to whiskey ginger. It's a great when I'm not on this fall hat with Sam Tripoli punchdrunk sports there you go

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Episode 44: Ramadan Eid  Al Fitr | 2020

Chief Yuya: Learn the Calculations, Insights, and the Lifestyle of a Royal Man

1:19:46 hr | 5 months ago

Episode 44: Ramadan Eid Al Fitr | 2020

"By my hime. So here we are again. Come to you this time. In the name of La the piece the most merciful the most beneficent. And this is of course chief you. You're listening to the chief U. Ya podcast and We have now reached the end of our our twenty twenty Ramadan experience for those of us who have participated this year and in particular participated at this time of the year because a not not All movements and all organizations participate in Ramadan at the same time but nonetheless I trust that you of all made it through especially for you first timers. I know that there will be some make-up days but don't feel ashamed about that There are more people having to make up days than you might imagine or who may have even come clean told you all right so The thing is is that It's time for you to work on your own disciplining to make sure that you can actually get to things and you. You can understand the things that you can live without and as you've probably noticed The last couple of days became much easier. Sure I'm sure you had certain fantasies throughout men when this is done I'm GonNa go get some of this somewhat had and I'm just GONNA I'm GONNA eat in the middle of the day. When the sun is out you may have had those fantasies But I trust that you used his opportunity to take the focus away from food and put the focus on self improvement and self development. Because you find that when you going through these experiences that There's a lot of focus on Food you realize how much throughout the day that we actually think about food and what we're GONNA eat next and what we aided. We're going to eat tonight. And after what the next thing we're going to eat and then what we're going to eat the next day. I had this for lunch today with tomorrow. I'm going to order some of this and some of that and you realize how much of a culture that food has become an lives and Of course how time consuming the pursuit if you will for food can actually be so I just wanted to Of course encourage those of you. Who were able to participate and to keep up you know would would the experience of Ramadan in As I've specified before it is something that We do and You know there's more explanation to come with that. At some point you know as as far as far as like you know what the experiences and why the experiences and you know is an Arab thing we'd Arabs now. When you think of Islam do you think of Arabia or do you recognize undestand dislike when you think of Christ or you think of Krishna Or you think of Buddha Sh- will your minds should go if you're historically correct so you'll begin to understand that. Christ or even Torah in Hebrew scripture the not begin in the nineteen forties with the creation of The state of Israel In the same instance that The understanding of Islam did not begin with recent profits or recent Colleagues and the The Arabian Peninsula the Arabian state. But anyway so I trust though nonetheless. It was a good challenge for you. All and of course we are at Eden Our time for for feasting is now and of course we are not permitted to fast during the time of eat But if you have makeup days than you you know you put your time in and you. You commend you. Continue to be faithful to that process because you being faithful to yourself and you know imagine is just like the charity that I speak about in the I knew way when I say that even poor people should give what we call an Islam is the caught But even poor people should give the KAT or or give charity because it speaks to the real abundance that surround us. Sometimes if we're not people who travel we start to really think that we don't have as much as we have? I have so many people in America to I'm poor. I don't have this data you know I've me. I've traveled a lot. I've seen poverty. I have seen real poverty and for the most part which you have you. In America is not that now there's an impoverished mindset there's an impoverishment of spiritual development but there are plenty of resources. I mean the amount of animals that people throw away always fascinated me. You know people will go somewhere order. Some chicken take one by endorsing the garbage can as a whole bird. You just do away you know or recently. We've still happening all these different animals. All these different birds cattle being euthanized. Because they don't have people to process them instead of saying well. Let's put them back into the Phil's data come from films but instagram saying Let's build a shelter where we could just keep them in until we're ready you know for them to be processed or is this something that happens to that chicken after six weeks debt. The world doesn't need to see solar. We gotTA Ruben Killer. 'cause after six weeks you could really see what we're growing all this time. Maybe a human error will pop out of its stomach. You know start talking after six weeks talking English you know so We gotTA hurry up and get rid of it after six strong's but anyway so like I said I just wanted to give you awesome encouragement I'm sure the journey was not easy for you. New Ones and I'm sure you did not grunt a Holler. Do A begrudgingly. Because in that instance. You didn't really do it. But you fast cheerfully annex you because you'll see many many many many more You will do it again. Cheerfully and always remember those last ten days of Ramadan specified and recent anew newsletter. Of course those most of you don't own talking about but For those of you in the ministry. One of the things that I said is at this last ten days is when you go and you forgive those who you may have been holding a grudge against so who might have even be holding a grudge against you because you never know this might be. Their last. Ramadan may be your last women especially with all of the Foolery that's going on the planet right now. it's a good time you know. Especially while we're hypersensitive from fasting our immune systems and nice and strong because of the fasting and know we've increased our production of white blood cells It's an excellent time to really reflect on. Maybe some of the the griefs any grudges that you've had with people and to maybe try another round of forgiveness. If you can doesn't mean that you have to now become close friends with the person the relationship will be as it as it was sometimes relationships need to die for something else to come forward but this certainly can be forgiveness but Anyway so that's that's that's our energy I wanted to give towards I and like I said I just wanted to give So many a virtual pat on the back you know for for getting through it because I know If it's the first time and I spoken to a lot of people this year was their first time especially some of our new I knew S aspiring wanted to give it a shot. So and honestly you didn't make it through on you eight and he did but you know like I said you make up those days in. You'll get better if get better. Don't worry about it So we hit on a couple of things. This is not going to be a long segment but You know I remember. I mentioned About a individual that I said I would touch upon By the name of our Bouba. Care when I kids. Actually that's not as really moving nickname. But he was known as you know Apple Bachir or the The the camels calf or the cameras calf. Really that's Father of camels Abu Abuse just like our father but You know I'm going to touch point him but I'm going to touch upon several things at once because I want to show you something that you need to know as relates to not only These very important figures and Islam but also these important figures in the whole Pantheon of human expression that the Creator has decided Among so many of us based on the Creator's imagination and Abu Kill said it's not really is is moving nickname father cameras or father. The camels calf. His name was a July with Mon. And even that that term Abdulah Was something that was later bestowed to him by the Prophet Mohammed His name was OB- Abdul Kaba Up Kabbah and that means a odd means servant or really a slave in Kabbah meaning the servant a slave of of Kaba where he was from and later Prophet Mohammed. To give him the name. Abdulah or opt I la the servant or slave of Allah but His full title was very long. And this is where we get into the importance. Where if you've read the I knew way whereas speak about names and names entitle titles was typically and how it is at our. Our names should be earned. But you know I said much longer. Name that This Khalifa had and there are there are people who consider him to be the first Khalif I. I consider him to be the second really because again. It was Prophet Muhammad who was the first Khalif and Abu Bakar who was his childhood friend who are considered to be the second Khalifa. And I think it's very significant Because a lot of times when we are seeking to share an inner standing about what it is that maybe has been revealed to us is very difficult to share those things with those who are close to us because a lot of times. We don't have the credibility within that we should because they know things about us that they that they will capitalize on when it comes time to change something about themselves based on what it is that we know what is it they know about us and in the same as like I said with the name and earning of the name where kids name Later became Abdulah but it was odd. Odd Kaba the ABC Kabbah in to have your friend the Prophet Mohammed. To say no you were slave to Kaaba. Now you are slave or servant to Allah or Ila so to now be called Abdulah Abdulai. Been With My. You know like said much shorter form of a much longer name would not going to say that every time because it's so long of delight a bin Salman bin Amir been. I'm being cub been. Saddam Been Tamed. Been Moolah COBB. He'd been yeah Gallup even fear so we say that every time so to me But nonetheless I want to impress upon you the value of a couple of things and you know ibew. Kobe was Abu Bakar. Again was an important figure for many reasons But like I said Being that close friend of the Prophet Muhammad and there was something very special that Crete that was created there that we often miss out on and our brashness and in our arrogance. And something simple you know. It was Abu Bark care who later became the father in law to the Prophet Mohammad. Even though they grew up as childhood friends He was actually a rich merchant He did very well in terms of of commerce and business but he was considered to be a very fair man in a very compassionate man so the majority of what he earned in what. He spent a lot of his money on charity in fact when he left to begin a campaign with the Prophet Mohammed Prophet Mohammed asked. Him He said. Hey you know what about your family? Your wife and your family. What are you leaving them? And he said I'm leaving them. Allah and the Prophet. You know so. He didn't have this sense of total attachment to the things that he considered that he owned in a material sense but You know I think it's very important to understand How we create these ties and he's connections From a familial sense it was the daughter. Aisha of Abu Bar Care who later became the wife of the Prophet Muhammad. Okay so one of the things that they did. That solidified their relationship and tightened and strengthened. The Battle of the relationship was that they married their families together. So it was the young daughter Scher that became the wife of the Prophet Mohammed. And in doing that It was Abu Bark who became his father in law and a lot of times. We missed out today unfortunately because we marry so often in secret and sometimes of course and again understandable if you are someone who is consciously aware in living in acting on that conscious awareness. A lot of times it is It is your maybe the family of the person who you according who may not necessarily accept you in many instances may not even like you you know and that is something that that we constantly have to deal with so when we think about the idea of marrying the families together Often is just not possible. And you know I often Tell Min. That's an important thing to consider when you're making a lot of demands as far as what you want and a woman and is nothing wrong with wanting Certain things in a woman but you have to understand sometimes what you're not bringing in of course where she's not bringing if you are joining with the woman in your to families cannot create a cohesive web as one family and again to bill upon tribe and build upon. I'm sorry clan and build upon nation. Then you're both missing out on something in your children are missing out on something because the engineers and the politicians and the doctors and legal people and the mechanics and farmers and all of those who have different technical skills with different communal organizing skills or whatever it is that exists on each side of those families they now cannot create a Web with one another if there is not a proper intrude joining but when there is now you all you not only strengthened the bonds but that lawyer now has a farmer that farmer now has an someone who can engineer who they can trust because we're all related to each other now so imagine a strength that's now transcribed those relationships and that's created in that can now serve not only the community but conserve the family. Because of the bonding of marriage so when Abu Care gave his wife I'm screaming gave his daughter Aisha to the Prophet Mohammed Which became his third wife and she was actually his youngest one but his third wife now the bond of not only their families but of their friendship and their brotherhood became even stronger. You see it became even stronger so again. Barca being Will say historically the first Khalif but again i. My perspective is a bit different To to succeed The Prophet Mohammed. Was Of course A very close friend of his. You know that's who succeeded him and He made some very interesting movements are it was under his his command and under his rule that we receive And again a little debatable. But we received a compilation of what's what's known today as the Koran because During that time there were people who said you know? This information may be lost so we need to document it and you know we need to put this together in the waste that it can. It can hold firm So that happened under his colleague. His colleague was only twenty seven months Caliphate Caliphate. So he only was about two years right but during that time there was so much that that he was able to get done in terms of even Quashing certain rebellions had happened after the death of the Prophet. Because one of the things that happened was there. Were certain tribes. It no longer wanted to pay. The cod cod is the charities the offering and there was some of his his people around him. That would like just let them let them do that. Just let them get away away with it for the sake of peace and he would hear nothing about it you know. He said no no. We're not going to do that. Because if we allow those concessions it will slowly erode what we know to be as Islam. A what we know to be as state in his strength that we're building so we're going to have to stand firm on that and it were those who who acquiesced to that and there were some who didn't as well so they were certain wars that were also fight. Fort As well as there was some invaders and but I don't WanNa get off into too much of that. She had because this is not really so much about Abu by care. What I'm teaching you here is about character. Ibope I care was a wealthy wealthy businessman but he was known to be a man of great character. You know that was thing so when the Prophet Muhammad Peace Be Upon Him when he transitioned it was. It was very obvious to those who had to now. Put the vote in as to WHO Lead that it should be Abu by care because of the quality of his character which was even shown at the time when he came into power because It was Umar which will get into who he was. He was a very strong ogm kind of energy and when the Prophet died he couldn't believe that the Prophet was dead. No one no one believed that this man or this man died and Omar was so upset that he said you know if anyone says to me that the Prophet has died. I will kill them right now. On the spot EC see and it was deprived. It was Abu Bar Care who stepped forward and went to a podium. He kind of pushed Omar side gently and he said listen. The Prophet is dead. This is what has happened. And what is important for you to understand that Allah lives and the Prophet Mohammed was a messenger and messengers live. And then they die but Allah is eternal and that is where our focus should be and you know insane expressing that it was a very important moment for people to understand where the direction of of this agenda in the scheme is going. We're supposed to be pointed towards to create not towards people no matter how great they are no matter how great they are. You know so like in the new way I write and I say do not get hung up on the terms but focus on the concepts. So when you hear Ya when you hear Israel Zion when you hear I la Muhammad you know Olo Demari Ogun Osun and you'll let your mind go into a place where you so focused on terminology that you lose yourself and what's truly being expressed there. You missed the point. You see you missed the whole point because You staring at the finger pointing at the moon and you should be looking at the moon right. So I will buy care was able to bring that back into focus now interesting enough that saying very strong energy of of Omar. Who was like? I'm going to kill anyone who who says the Prophet has died. He became the third Kelly. After Omar here which is very interesting because I'm sorry I boo- back here during that time it was you know when Abu Bark like I said he was healy rain for about two years and he became ill. And then he transitioned and during that time There was concern amongst the advisors his advisors because they was saying who will go next who will be the next Caliph so Abu Bar it. Okay will you go and you go. You talk you talk about it amongst yourselves when he was transitioning and you come back to me With an answer in what he was thinking they would choose his successor among one of them among the advisers and when they came back they said you know. We don't know who to choose so we need you to do it For them for for for us an Abu by chose Omar in Omar's his was Omar. Been archetype you know. And no one was happy about that. And I'm GonNa tell you why the me explain. Who Omar was Omar? Very interesting person. He was a wrestler and he was a very hardman also merchant successful merchant and in the beginning before he before he converted to Islam. He was a staunch opponent to Islam to the point that he wanted to kill the Prophet Mohammed. That's how much he was against Islam according to our historical records and You know but he was. He was known he was excellent. Horse rider he was a wrestler. A he was a very strong individual. So what happened. One day was that he set out to He was going to murder the prophet and He found out that his sister and his brother in law had converted to Islam so he went over to their home to confront them about this and he found them in a moment in the middle of a lesson being taught things about Islam and he went into a rage and he ceased. He beat up his brother-in-law and he started smacking around his sister and she started bleeding and in that moment he felt he felt bad and he stopped so then he then he started to listen you okay. So what is this about what Islam about? What is His Prophet? Talk about and it with things that were being said in that moment that allowed her softened his heart and one of which was at finding out that you know. Allah it there is no God above Alah and that softened his heart and he started to listen he started to learn right so eventually he he converted to Islam. You know but I should also add. He read the Koran for himself and before he read he went and took a bath. I he bathes himself. He cooled himself off very strong. Ogun energy with Omar ib Qatar. He bathed himself off and he came back and he began to read the Koran. And read what was you know or read not so much the Koran but he began to read you know the the the the testimonies documents in okay in listen and it with a cool head. He was able to process. This is this is a good thing so he was the same one again. When the Prophet transitioned he's like anybody says the Prophet transition in front of me. Kill Them so when he was chosen by Buber here many of the men were concerned because they were saying you know. He's he's too rough. It's got too much gounon them you know he he's a he's a very hard energy in We don't we don't necessarily want to be under his role because he's such a strong person and you know He was aware of what The men were feeling you know the people of Medina how they were feeling about about him and you know what kind of how he was known in terms of his toughness and you know he made it clear and he you know he addressed the people and he said you know I. I am the one who be back here. Said Abu by Said who needs to govern over you in to be your next Khalif and I want you to know that I've softened myself in order for me to properly rule you and to properly govern you but if anyone seeks to oppress you or transgress against you you will see my strength. Come forth again. You know And he said I will put my own face in the dirt to defend you righteous people and it was very important. You know it metaphor let me go to Abu Bakar if for second it was Abu by care that established What we call Colds of conflict but a Cold War. You know so. There was certain things that You know he specified at pretty much Dan today that you ought not do and at times of war you know one of them for instances you should not kill women or elderly people you know he also said that if if you're going into a land and you have conquered the land do not cut down the fruit trees but allow them to stand because those those trees that you can eat from later right so there was a series of things that he had he had spoken about that became kind of he became known for as far as You know like I said our codes of conflict. These are the things that we will not do Going forward and he even spoke about. You may find. People have spent their life in monasteries as we know was like monks do not kill monks as very different from what you see amongst the Viking clans who they they went in for the monks When they came into Europe They that's they went to I practically but nonetheless you know he. He established some of these codes. And they were they were of them as far as like you know How people would be treated you know going going forward so we go back to Abu. I'm sorry go back to Omar being you know he made it clear that I'm still a strong man but I will offer myself for you. I I understand what you concerns. What and he was so essential to the again. The establishment of the Islamic state Very similar to Abu Bar Care He was able to get so much done. But before we get into that if I even get into that You know like I said. He increased people's money increased salary. He took nothing from them. He established a police force. You know he did. So many things He conquered lands and more so people who were trying to conquer them you know including Ancient won't not so ancient Egypt or commit but He also promised that he would not send armies out to be destroyed. A lot of rules do that. You know they they'll send armies out to to either make a point or to show force because they just don't care you know great example if you look at the movie. Glory Denzel Washington and Morgan Freeman and Matthew Broderick in Andre I can't remember his name right now but nonetheless you look at a movie like that and you see like the glory was. We're GONNA go going to try to take this fort which they didn't take any way and we all got half of us are going to die and the process. But it was Omar I know not going to do. I'm not going to send soldiers out omissions like that and he also made sure not that soldiers would never kept out for extended periods from their family so there was a lot of fairness there. There was a time when I mean it was so many things he did. I keep going and you know. Give it a for history lesson but I'll leave that to own scholarship but there was there was a time when it was called the time of ashes and It was basically. It was a drought and famine in the land and The people were were doing so poorly at a certain time. And I have to say at a certain time because as Omar expanded the empire One of the things that are his predecessor had established which have been established by Prophet Muhammad. Was that there was a. We'll call it a stipend that was paid out to the people regularly. So basically as the nation expanded the wealth of that expansion was not just pay towards the aristocracy. So it wasn't just a higher caste that benefited from the expansion but all citizens were given a stipend and when Omar came into power increased. Stipend right so if if the government a we do well we all do. Well you know so he even like I said if there was a soldier who was kept out for too long or did not return. He then took it upon himself to be the caretaker of that soldier's wife and he also cared for the soldiers children so no one was left without support or protection and there was a time it also should be noted with the marlins that he never moved with bodyguards which I found very interesting. Of course he was known Not to be one to mess with but nonetheless you know no one is I can't say no one is superman. But no one is is impenetrable but He would often walk the streets especially at night By himself and he would do that because he wanted to be closely in tune with the condition of his people and a lot of times he would give. Cheese has a cut to the people in need but he would do it in an anonymous way because he would just be walking the streets at night and People would would maybe not know who he was but during this time called the year of ashes People would test it. You know like I said there was famine and things like that in certain things became unavailable. you know like milk and and things like that so people would would basically live off of A little bit of bread dipped in oil and that is how they sustained themselves for that. Time and Omar refuse to buy or allow The merchant to sell things at inflated prices. So you know of course we. We often fall into the idea that you know. As demand increases the prices shall increase. But this was not not allowed and during this time Omar with eat bread dipped in oil because his whole There are more was that. How can I truly be concerned and understand what Mike what my subjects are going through? If I do not go through the same thing so he would eat what the ordinary people would eat by So there was a story and this is this is what we're we're building up to That Omar experience we know about Omar One night when he was out taking one of his Usual Walk Sir. Or strolls if We want to call it He came upon a woman an old woman and she had a fire going and she was preparing would appear to be food in there. Were a lot of You know women. I'm an excuse me a lot of children around. It was a was a pot being cooked there and the children were saying I'm hungry. I'm hungry choosing hush hush to the food will be Prepared soon and you'll be able to eat. And Omar Kinda sat at a distance and just looking at what was occurring. Just watching them and you know when she's she saw him standing at a time you know because he was standing for so long You know he greeted her you know and he said Peace Unto You. Auntie and she said if you know if you want trouble keep moving but if you come in peace than you know every everything is fine so he then approached The young the the the the older woman and once he approached her You know he he. He was talking to her and you know she was still saying you know hushed children hush children you know like the food is coming. Soon of food is coming. So when Omar looked into the pot he saw that it was a stone in the pot. Who's cooking stone? So he asked me he said you know why why you. Why are you doing this thing? And she said well I'm I'm I just keep steering the pot and I'm hoping that The children were small pebbles in the pot. The children will fall asleep. So basically I'll just keep staring in by time. They fall asleep. This just you know. Poor the poor the water out. But I'm basically trying to keep the occupied. The minds occupied until they fall asleep. Because I have no food for them right And you know. She began to She she no she replied and know Omar was asking. You know again he. It was a response to like. The children are crying and children are weeping. He saying you know what having you given giving them what you have hit to eat. And the right so When she explained that to him he said You know how did you come into this condition like what you know? What happened and The woman said I have no friends I have no brother have no father. I have no husband and I have no kin. Nor or Kinsman in Oh so essentially she saying I'm an uncovered woman completely. You know I have these children here but I have no men in my life you know and I have no friends right now. I know that this is a common condition even today. I know it because I council. Many people do this condition but This was her situation. So then Omar said to her you know. Why didn't you come in bring situation Before you're you know the son of our time So that he could bring you something from the Public Treasury and as she said you know Like she began really the curse. Omar not knowing of course. She's speaking to more but she began to curse him. You know and Saying you know. I hope God rips him down from His throne and this and that and you know and I hope is life is not spared all these different things so like when Omar her dislike he. He began to shake. You know he was like he was like Auntie you know like in like how has Omar oppressed you? You know what what has he done to you? And in She was like he's you know by Allah you know he's he's wronged us. You know like he's done. He's done wrong things to us and If he was a true king he would check on the condition of all of his subjects. Then he would find people like me who are going through situations like this but yet no he sits you know on his throne and he knows nothing about poverty. Nothing about with the people are going through. So how could Omar really know about what what my children are going through on? My circumstances is not my to go and inform him of what I'm going through in was like you know how could he know unless you go until him unless you tell him what the problem is and she was like? No no no no. It's the job of the of the king to inquire so he should know was going on with The problem so then Omar Center you know. Aunty okay You speak the truth but I want you to keep the children distracted. You know and I'll return shortly right but just keep them distracted. So then he he. He goes out and He walked forward and he he basically goes back to to the palace. And you know I should. I should also say you know. One of his names was Ruler or Commander Really of the faithful and that was the name that he actually gave himself Commander of the Faithful. He gave himself the so he. This was the level of respect and division that he had for the people that he ruled over you know he considered them to be the faithful right so again he goes back to the palace and he goes to the store house of the palace and he commanded our someone. You know to give him a bag of flour Which was like it was it was enough. It was about one hundred pounds of flour He got some buttermilk and he got a couple of things to the point that you know he got a jar of g and he got so much to the point that the flower the flower was falling all into his beard right and when he's going to take it the servant and the palace was like no let me let me carry it for you in. Omar was like you know What what do you think cannot carry? He said the people are going through so many so many trials and are experiencing so many burdens. The least I can do is carry the small burden right now. You know and he said that I would carry a mountain of iron and it's better to carry them out iron than to have to take account for one unjust act. You know so. He said and he was saying the unjust act would be me seeing. This woman Boiling pebbles for her children. And for me to ignore it. Because he's saying what a sin it would in the eyes of Alah for me to see something like this and to do nothing so for me to carry. All of these things to this woman is nothing you know based in in contrast to me seeing something so horrible and doing nothing. Okay so if you can. You can understand that concept. In and the importance that he placed upon carrying the burden himself you see carrying that burden so then he went back and and He went to the old woman's ten and it was said that by the time he got there he was like he was severely out of breath. They said that he was panting. Like an ox out of but he laid you know everything in front of the woman and go the the jar of g and then I he went and he began to cook the food for the woman and at that point the fire and nearly gone out so he asked the woman. Do you have any firewood? And she was like yeah and she went and got some firewood but when she went and got it. The fire was green so when he put some of on you know so he he puts some of on fire and I he said he said defying everything but there was so much smoked at. The smoke was coming up through his beard. You know because he was stooping so low. He had to keep blowing on the fire because the would was green so he was. It shows you the amount of labor that's going into Trying to prepare this food and at that time the g melted and began to boil and and he was staring the G. With one hand with the piece of wood and then the other mixing flour with the G. And you know he did these things on until the food was cooked and and and into children rose up and you know they were like you. They were like screaming because there was a food ready and it was food to eat and You know he asked the woman for vessel you know. He put the food in so you know they. They began to be. She began to feed children and everything. And you know he stayed the into. Everybody was fed and everybody was fulfilled and they fell asleep. And then Omar. He says to the to the woman who said you know? I'M A I'm a cousin of of Omar you know the commander of the faithful and I will let him know your situation so he told the woman you know tomorrow come to the palace and look for me there and you know we'll we'll see what we can do and You know he left her in everything and Of course the story goes on and on and on and on And you know that next day I should just say when the woman came through Omar immediately upon seeing her asked her to forgive him and he established pension for that woman for her to be taken care of okay so and it was a monthly pension. It was in like a like a a statement so she would be taken care of because she had no covering so in in that moment cheap. He became a covering so own energy. You know this is Oh goon through and through when you if if you understand the nature and the energy and like I said this was an individual who wouldn't he came into power. Oh was selected for power. The people were concerned they didn't necessarily want him to come into power because of the seriousness of this man. This is a man who at one point aimed to kill the Prophet Muhammad. He was you know he was almost like Popol. Was You know With the early followers of the way you know he you know Paul was a persecutor. You know the early followers of of the way and you know would even oversee their their executions in torturing you know so You could see Omar and and similar state right would that similar kind of our positioning but If you know about Gounon ogies whatever they do they do it to Perfection so I'm GONNA be villain I'M GONNA. I'M GONNA put my all into it if I'm going to be a commander of to put my all into you. Know whatever it is that I choose to do Everything that I have is going into into that. You know so You know again in honor of of Ramadan I wanted to share that story and You know she just some of the the little notes in there. Hopefully you picked up on the gyms In terms of not only rulership in for me. These these ideas and he's concepts in each true stories are very important because a lot of times we have people who will suppose themselves to be Leaders and things like that or sometimes we suppose them to be leaders because we liked the energy or we like what it is that they're talking about And as a result then we we begin to say okay. We'll I follow this person. I follow that person and we don't necessarily maybe ourselves understand the qualities of of leader you know like with the older woman said if he was a real king he would be down here trying to find out what's going on with without realizing well you talking to the king who was down here to find out what's going on with everyone who walks out here was every night to see was going on but you know how many people can. I address at one time. You're not gonNA I can get to you when I can get to you but does is king who walks with no bodyguards. You know and who gives the Kata gives charity anonymously. But you're focused on your situation and for whatever the reason is that you have no husband you have no brother. You have no father. You have no kinsman you know but you have children right which goes into a different kind of Discussion but you know I. We have to service the need. And then we can get to that and that's an important best an important Concept to consider especially in times like now where there's so much struggle That's coming hasn't even begun yet. You talk about people that the year of ashes and they call it because it was so much drought and it was so dry that People would burn as if they were ashes on their skin because which is so hot so they called it the year of ashes in Again to have a ruler. Who NAMES HIMSELF? You know Amir Amou- meaning and Amir are moving. Meaning Means Command of the Faithful Right. So the idea or Amou- mini mid nine. You know but it's that's of the Faithful Faithful But the idea again Of how this person is perceiving the people that he has to service or has been appointed to service and even the change in his own disposition. We says you know I will soften myself to help I am. I'm self aware and understand who I need to be in what I need to be. In order to honor disposition that the creator of the most high has placed me. You know so in order to really stand for what I'm supposed to be and to be that true inherent of Alah upon will Talla. I will make sure that I measure my own nature right and like I said a lot of times. People Confuse with leadership is opposed to Glenk And no it's not always someone servicing your every need you know it's it's nothing like that Leadership is leading you somewhere and if someone says. I'm the commander of the Faithful Dan. I'm leading you into a place. That should be strengthening. Your faith right But nonetheless a leader Denotes that this movement if someone is leading you somewhere then you should be moving into a certain direction and I'm not calling myself a leader. Though there are people who say that they follow me and I know that that's a such a loose term today because in social media you have was called followers right. So what does it mean you mean like you clicked follow Omar profile or click like a Mpho profile? You subscribed or does it mean that The tenants and the character that I not only model but teach you adhere to and you take any say. This is how we live. This is how my household lives. This is our culture because this is what we have been taught by the person that we are following so big difference right but nonetheless Following requires sacrifice leading requires sacrifice. And when you're unwilling to make those sacrifices then you are unfit for leadership and you're unfit for followership when you are unable or unwilling which is usually what it is. You're unwilling to make the necessary sacrifices in case so You see some excellent Chronicles here of sacrifice which we experienced throughout Ramadan The sacrifice and it's not so hard if you really think about it this is. It's mental you you get up before sunrise. You eat something then after sunset you eat something so you don't you have you have. Maybe a small gap may be fourteen hours. Will you don't need anything? K? Snarly a big deal. Imagine eating bread dipped in oil just once per day or nothing. Someone boiling pebbles to just distract you until you fall asleep and you falling asleep still with the hunger pains and you still waking up from hunger pains and nothing but a Potter A. Pebbles still left is saying so The disciplining in the sacrifice become a key thing and that has to be something that we especially now. We don't have space time or room to play. You know a second wave has already hit China and in Dave now going into a second lock now. I told you this is not the last. This is not the last situation this plenty more coming and we're at a time now where you have to examine those you call leaders whether the pastors the Imams of whatever in you know this is not a statement of you know look at your religion change religion if you pray to ally Sukarno Wa to our at that is where you are or you pray to your or ever you know or or Guna Ocean Shambo over whom Eli Whomever you are being led by more being led by someone or something you know. Google isn't should not be deity nor should you be so. He's a sad statement you. You're like that woman cooking pebbles when I speak to people and I say well you know who he studied with. I just Google stuff. Okay the the no situations you don't even know what to Google because you don't know what you're missing. That's always the challenged. Yeah you when that thought comes with me look this Olympic. I'm just led by my spirit. Spirit can be confused and crazed spirits not always correct most of the time the not. That's why they here exploring does a spirit of truth is a spirit of deception is a spirit of ego is a spirit of curiosity does a spirit of wickedness so many different spirits you know. I was I was passing through Of Room recently and Not In my home and I saw some people they will watch. Some young children were watching transformers. Right and They're supposed to be children. Who are supposed to be of a righteous family which they are as. I'm seeing supposed to it so they were watching this transformers thing and I saw macron and transformers. Maybe I'll do a breakdown. When Day on his transformers is so has so much stuff in. It is like you could do. Several shows transformers even the songs in when all hell breaks loose. You'll be riding on the eye of the storm. You only knew them But there was an image of unique Ron and I looked and I said Oh that's Molin. I just glanced quick and ailing lake as I can't look you can't see you don't see the horns and the s mullick. Unicorn is what the world will was was malek to eat of children like Bob. I but you know you're looking at Malek right there. Which is the the one of our earlier ideas of Child sacrifice so that's what unit Krahn represents and You know there were other ones in other cartoons as well but you always see those horns and they eat world you know There was another one back in the days and Marvel Universe wasn't then also it was a different one. But you know another another time but that was one who had empowered to silver surfer. Can't remember the name but Anyway like I was saying so This is a time now where we have to really be a little bit a little bit more serious about what is that with saying we stand for and not necessarily galactic. Sorry I news will pop into Glac this back in the days because galactic is the one who gave silver surfer The metallic skin and everything gave him his powers but galactically was to eater of worlds. You know And again you see that horned helmet you looking at. Malek right the eater of children but anyway cartoon breakdowns another time so You know this is an opportunity for us to really again. Look at Canada Bouba Care was known for his character. Great character was the Khalifa only for two years. You know because he developed a fever. What happened He? He had a fever and he died and his last days it was his wife Asia. Who took care of him you know and he was buried next to the Prophet Muhammad. You know Again his friend but do as as one of the reasons that he was buried there because he would he said that A profit should be buried where he dies. You know and So Prophet Muhammad was buried where he died so very interesting thing. Now when you think about sometimes the Times where we find ourselves so many of us sitting in in jobs or in neighborhoods and and homestead. We don't we don't WanNa live in. We don't enjoy. We don't like walking around our neighborhood or you know seeing our neighbors you know when we we time ourselves coming out of doors. We don't have to see people and things like that will imagine if we you are right now is where you buried if you if you follow that same credo that you know this is for profit. But let's just say you took it that you know I'll be buried where by you know. And Omar of course was also buried beside the grave of a Prophet Muhammad but Let's say you took that Credo. You'd have to really take an honest. Look at you know. Do I really love where I live in? Am I willing to die? Here is my place of retirement and if not maybe I need to make some more serious decisions now about what my life looks. Like and we're I'm being led to or from being led nowhere. Mom being led nowhere. You know if I'm following certain ideologies and certain people and certain concepts and it's bringing me nowhere and bringing us nowhere. Will I end up like the woman would no kinsmen? No father no brother. You know in no husband no covering with a bunch of children and now depending and relying on the state that I at the same time. I'm complaining about will. I ended up being like that. Am I like that now? How many people I know you know and females. I know that have very vowed things to say about the father or fathers of the children and sometimes I have to remind them that. If you didn't have welfare and food stamps you'd be in the same position as then may be worse. He doesn't work he doesn't do. This ain't got no job. He ain't got no money needed to you. You just have to stay taking care of you. You you are the Vagrant that he is he just doesn't have the support that you have so With that concept of marriage and purposeful childbearing and child birthday it becomes even more critical that we start to look at the webs that were able to create through the functioning of an of sane family. And how we can create brotherhoods and how we create sisterhood. And and parenthoods you know when we choose wisely and we choose with With the mission because being led towards a certain mission. When you read the I knew way and says at on people should meet with on new. People s not a suggestion that is not a suggestion as the directive that is a directive. You know I had a conversation with a manny of the day. And he was talking about the value of foreign women and how he found that North American women just really lacked politeness and decorum and softness in an an overall a lot of times just class and I agreed with the mini points. And Said Yeah you know a lot of times foreign women the value that they they have is that they they really celebrate femininity and a lot of females in North America. They run away from feminity. That's why it's so easy for males to fallen fall into relationships with other males who pretend to be females because at least they're striving to be feminine. But I said his the important thing that you need to understand. Why didn't say that you need to understand but I said I just made a statement? I said Yeah you're right as this. There's a serious problem in has been going on since the sixties you know since really the this. The series introduced an introduction of the welfare state and to the urban communities because the welfare state had already been going on rural communities but it was his called subsidies. You know farm subsidies and stuff but I said that other kind of plan you know Created a monster and the community but I said but the North American woman is to best mate for the North American men and that pause them for more is what would you. What do you mean you know with all the problems? I said who else understand. You was understands what you go through. Who else understands his struggle. Who else has the economic sophistication that you required to really build your empire in North American female outside said Yeah I is is is ugly is looking real ugly out it's very difficult to find a suitable feminine counterpart. It's looking really really bad but One of the things that you have to understand is that people wanna be with their own so when you go to foreign countries and you scooping up females a lot of times. They're conjoining with you because he been forced into a corner the same we you've been forced into a corner. They would rather not be with you they would. They would rather that did children represent day lineage and not be mixed plain and simple But people have been forced into a corner. You know so. Your best mate still comes from where you're from even with all the ugliness. It just means that you have to search harder you have to be more creative more inventive and finding a good one you know but if you have foreign lovers as you know it is what it is. I understand that but it doesn't mean that you know the best meat doesn't mean only me you might have Women at you do with that. You're made it too far. You know foreign but understand the best one is going to be the one that's with you and it's always a sad occurrence when you cannot conjoined with your best mate because of social engineering but anyway so that is our That is tribute. I would say to be a Buba care as well as My Been COBB and You know again closing out this Ramadan. This year And I'm sure for many of you has been a beautiful experience if not at least a learning one. I I- Lisa learning one and I will that You start really thinking strongly about who it is at. You can join within web and move beyond as I've been saying probably foot only since I've been on the Internet ten years or so At least I'm what I see on the Internet. Don't podcasts and whatnot that you move beyond This digital medium will not be here forever. But I will that you know many of you. Won't you like hiding? This is like the movie surrogate. You like hiding your apartments in your house. Where behind the screen? You don't want anybody to see you. I know that you know many of you will be found half eaten by your house pets. You know. That's your what it is but those of you who are have a bit more foresight. I will that you work in do everything you can the to take business from the digital to the analog world because the there's a time coming we will not have such easy access. Don't take it for granted that you will have such easy access all the time to digital once once you finished completely downloading your brain. You thought you likes your angers into social media and you've completely built up that That mind of Yuna Krahn you know It won't really need any more to do anymore down. Won't you won't have anything left? So that's when you access will be restricted. Because he got everything we need to know. You Ain't grown anymore. We've we've developed the algorithm that that we needed to To to develop you know and now we've built brainiac you know so Yeah you can go about your way now and no more free social media so I really just will. That you make the serious efforts anomaly. Create family for those of you who take it seriously and understand it what you need to fix within yourself to be eligible for that you. Demand is not enough honey to be covered or I need a woman S. No so what you know Are you eligible for that? An easily things that you know I knew is leading you and to some of the things this some of it is like the basics is an even deeper stuff But sometimes you need a leader like Abu By care who may be a little more soft target but is able to represent the faith in a very strong way and the teachings because he grew up with the Prophet was. You know I convert you know Arguably but do you need sometimes as strong hand of a Omar. Been to also tell you that. Hey we can't play with you right now. You know the serious things happening series things going on and no one has a time to be sitting here playing with you. You're playing and you're GONNA die because you're playing. But I consider those who are under my steed to be pious and to be faithful and I take that charge seriously into ignore that need or to ignore that responsibility would be of the greatest sin against my deity so there are different people who emerge at different times for different reasons and you have to kind of be in tune with the challenges to not to be able to recognize the solutions. All right so This has been chief. I'M GONNA lead you out with A little meditation that I that I've been with I'm GonNa play for you and we're going to close out but that and maybe it will help you to meditate a little bit just a little Some of you are Kinda toy with music a little bit. No let me not say that. That's disrespectful I'm as false humility Music is very important to me. It's it's a very important part of what I am and what you hear all the time so is actually Sometimes I actually make songs just for me. You know. I'm I make saw most of what I do. Now is for Film you know his muscles to work that I do now but There's a lot of times I make music to my own healing and I made something It might have been twenty twenty eleven Ramadan something like that and I found The foul recently and I was listening to it in as I was meditating and moving around and walking and I said okay maybe I'll share this one all right so I'm going to share this with you all and I will see you for a next podcast. All right so everyone be. Well continued to be wise and You know continue to monitor and pay close attention to what it is and who it is. You are choosing to follow and be subject to all right piece law He a The

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