5 Episode results for "Professor Andrew Jackson"
Babbage: The fast and the spurious
"The Drugs and vaccines for Kobe, nineteen are appearing faster than ever. Put Our government's approving them to easily. The Klay Message to any other government is don't start dropping your citizens with vaccines do not properly tested. It's just not worth it. Hello, and welcome to baggage from economist radio our weekly podcast on technology and science. I'm Kenneth Kooky a a senior editor at the Economist and coming up on today's show. Musk's quest to wire a computer into the human brain. What they demonstrated. The other night was a device that can record from a thousands and twenty four, these the wise a thousand brain cells. And every breath you tank. Just, light breathing display over a couple of minutes youth can really feel this change in your body. But I Any new effective vaccine will be given emergency approval by the British government, which aims to move with unprecedented speed. In America Donald Trump has promised to deliver a vaccine before the end of the year. Yet this week he said the administration will not work with the World Health. Organization. Linked effort to develop distribute a covert nineteen vaccine. While drugs and vaccines are vital to controlling covid nineteen. The WHO warned that a vaccine that is only moderately effective could actually worsen the pandemic. On August Eleventh Vladimir Putin of Russia declared victory push the. Each potential. Another government made the claim that it was the world's first approve of Vaccine Sputnik Five. This involves injecting people with a harmless virus that has been modified to express one of the proteins made by SARS cough to the virus that causes covert nineteen. The approach is similar to other vaccine candidates around the world veteran trials. But the speed of sputnik five use raises troubling issues. We know very little about the testing of this vaccine such as how long it was tested for. In, for long because it was given to only seventy six people, Tasha loader is the economists health policy editor. The results of the tests have not been published. The Russian said they've also tested the vaccine animals. Those results have not been published either and so really we haven't information vacuum about his except for what the institute the did. The studies have said to us, which is very little. How did that come to be approved so quickly? Well, I mean. The Russian government simply decided that it didn't go through the sorts of normal trials that you would expect a vaccine. It redrew the finishing line. You know there are a lot of covert vaccines around the world going through was a called phase three trials and the pappas phase three trials is that you give them to thousands and thousands of people on you find out firstly, if the vaccine works secondly, if in thousands of people, it's still safe tested. Thousands of people that you really get a good signal in a large number of people to serve whether it is really well tolerated. So I suppose there is a thing called best practices in drug development and they're not actually adhering to it. Yes. Absolutely. But the Russians are not the only ones who have been doing this and they may not have been the first earlier this year. One of our correspondents in Beijing had told us that he'd heard. Anecdotal. Reports. Airport workers were being given a Chinese vaccine on the sort of reports that we're hearing now from China that some workers in state-owned industries had been given a vaccine seem to agree with those sort of anecdotal reports we were hearing. So I think it's quite clear that some countries willing to relax the normal requirements for medicine safety in order to just move quickly. Now, that's not something that we should expect to see in countries and regions with. Agencies that a much more independent that governments that makes you think about the governments of Russia and China. They have much more of a stranglehold if you like over the regulatory agencies, one would hope that the regulatory agencies in other countries have a bit more spine and will wait the results of phase three trials that is banned minimum trust to move ahead safely vaccine development. So what's the problem of rushing it? Will the problem is the vaccine could be unsafe and there's a couple of ways in which a vaccine could be safe one it could come with side effects thought all dodging dangerous. You do get ready neurological conditions triggered. The other concern is something cooled vaccine enhanced disease. This is where you give someone vaccine. and. Lowering the risk that someone gets sick or dies from a disease, it actually increases it and you know we've seen signs of vaccine enhanced diseases in talk development. In the past, it's not particularly common, but it is something that can happen and doctors y you put vaccines through phase three trials. You you need to rule out that problem you need to make sure that the vaccine you give to someone is not going to give him side effect ten it's not going to make Cova nineteen us. Now. It's not just Russia or China that's been rapidly improving vaccines and drugs without adequate trials. On August. Twenty third president trump announced approval of the use of convalescent plasma therapy to treat covid nineteen. The FDA has issued an emergency use authorization for re-treatment known as convalescent plasma. How does that work and why was that rush to? The convalescent plasma is essentially take blood from people who've coverage from covid nineteen. Do you extract out the antibodies that they've made in their blood in something called plasma, and then you give it to someone who's sick and plasma therapies been used for over one hundred years on it works in some diseases and not in others we do think convalescent plasma is promising therapy this question of Shit and there are trials going on the planet but as yet they haven't been very conclusive. It still sane as an experimental therapy and president trump describe this as a very historic breakthrough. This is what I've been looking to do for a long time. This is a great thing today. I'm pleased to make a truly historic announcement and are. The FDA Looked at the results of one trial and said, there's enough evidence to authorize it to use. It's former drug approval, and there's a couple of problems with this one is the the evidence is really poor. It's not randomized controlled trial told those. nope. To See by group is just to trial where some patients would give convalescent plasmas sooner than others and some people are concerned that the group that had the high mortality actually had more sicker patients in it, and that's one of the problems when you're not doing randomized controlled trial. Another one of the issues is really that it was just so badly handled by the FDA the head of the FDA cutoff and announced that thirty five people of every hundred treated with compliment plasma with be saved on that number was just completely wrong he had. Gotten his statistics wrong heat confused, relative, and absolute risk on. The actual figure it was more like three lives saved cools that's worth having, but it certainly isn't very historic breakthrough and. We really do need to kind of white for proper randomized controlled trials to really answer the question of whether this therapy wax. The touch. It seems like there's a real paradox here because in the midst of the pandemic, we want governments to act quickly. But here we think they're doing it wrong. How do we square the circle? How can we have it both ways speed plus regulatory muster? Will we have got speed? That's the kind of insane thing is that we're? Moving incredibly rapidly and the results have phase three trials for vaccines could come in in the next three or four weeks. Nobody's ever move moved quickly. So what I would say is the every legitimate step has been taken to accelerate the speed with which drugs and vaccines have moved. What people are complaining about now is that these are unreasonable stops and that essentially governments behaving and slightly risky fashion and doing. So for political reasons if the British government all. The Europeans wanted to accelerate struck vaccines like this they could but they haven't, and why is that? Well, nobody here is coming up for reelection in November asked Mr. Trump is all in China they may wish Russia may wish to sort of show what strong powerful countries they are, how they're taking care of their citizens I mean there's all sorts of political dimensions to moves that have been made Tasha voter you very much. Thank you so much can. For, more pandemic and a wide ranging look at a fast changing world subscribed to the economist go. Economists Dot. com slash podcast offer for the best introductory offer and the link is in the show notes. Again, that's a communist dot com slash podcast offer. And don't forget to tell them. Can Censure. Next up pandemic or no twenty twenty has been a bumper year, for Elon, musk inmate space x became the first private company ever to send humans into orbit. While over the past eight months, Tesla's market capitalization has more than quadrupled making it the most. Valuable car company on the planet. Last Friday another musk venture, the Niro technology company neural link which connect to computer into the human brain notched up what seems to be another win with public demonstration of its technology at use in. Aches. Aren't welcome to the product. Emma. Of Real excited we've got I think it's going to. Blow your mind. Shoot a form, the demo captured the public imagination, and trended wildly online. But as a computer enhanced human brain, really within reach the near link team is working on what's called the brain machine interface, and that involves electrodes of very spoil wise placed into the brain to record the electrical activity from brain cells. Andrew Jackson is a professor of neural interfaces at Newcastle University and what they demonstrated the other night was a device that they've built that can record. From one thousand and twenty four of these little wives about a thousand brain cells and the activity is processed by an implant that sits inside the skull, and then realize that activity wirelessly out to a receiver and the case of New Orleans pig Gertrude. I. Think her name was what activities specifically was being detected and relaid in the pig that we saw the electrodes were placed in. A sensory part of the brain related to the Peace Now. So. You're hearing are real time signals from the link in Grocery had. So this year link and says what? Was the activity of sensory neurons that were relying information about the the paycheck sniffing at various objects. They also showed a video I think they had recorded from brain cells in the motor area of the brain. When we have. Of our picks on a treadmill. Funny concept really in that video, they were suggesting that they were able to infer the movement of the pigs. On a treadmill from listening to these brain signals. In classical style this has been very snazzy presented and Garner a lot of attention but from your perspective someone who's been a lot in this field as an academic, is there anything particularly new or innovative about what neural incas done with this technology thing what they've done a nice job on is. A lot of the engineering of the device itself. So to some extent, I think they've made a lot of progress in the areas that perhaps you might expect a tech company well resourced to make make progress on. So so previously, lot of the work that has been done in animals and also some work has been using these techniques in humans has tended to use a cables connecting the electrodes in the brain through the skin to large racks of equipment. Computers and so forth powered from the mains in order to process and make sense of this data and what they've done is taken a lot of that electronics shrunk it down, made it low power. Enabling it to be placed within the skull and relaying these signals. Wirelessly, the other thing that they showed which I think is very nice is. A robot a bit like a sewing machine. To. Insert these electrodes and apparently automatically avoid blood vessels to do a minimum amount of damage. So I think all of this is very impressive where I am more skeptical is. The the claims that they're making of being able to. Sort of read thoughts and enhance brain function through this technology. There's there's quite a big gap between being able to record these brain cells compared to some of the claims that became rather more outlandish about being able to read thoughts and and read memories and things like that because to some extent that require much more progress in actually understanding how these signals relate to complex mental and cognitive functions does this have the markings of a turf war between academics and entrepreneurs because I know that he on must recently responded to? A news report in which your own criticisms of neuro link had been quoted and he said basically that his view was academics, overweight ideas and underweight bring them to fruition or less kindly that they're all talking no trousers what do you say to that? So I I think it would be very unfortunate if this ends up being a sort of tribal arguments, Elon Musk I'm sure recognizes that he's following in the footsteps of some very pioneering work in the academic field that really pushed the idea of brain machine interfaces forward of basic. Fundamental neuroscience research into practical demonstrations of devices that could help people with spinal cord injury. I think that from the academic point of view, we ought to see this as a success story that a technology that for a long time has been being developed in in the academic research arena is capturing the attention of near technology companies. So I did not mean to any of the comments that I made I didn't mean to turn this into a turf war I think that we will. All benefit from from the exchange of ideas and working together. You heard it here. First Turf War averted and Professor Jackson to end with a look forward musk said that the ultimate goal of neuro link is to usher in an age of quote super, human cognition in your view, does that claim that view of the future really belong in the realm of science fiction as far ahead as we currently see so I think it's very hard to judge these things I think that clearly Ilan Musk likes big ideas and he likes big kind of visions. I think that at the moment, the state of the technology president is that there hasn't really been demonstrated and I think it will be quite a while before anyone demonstrates a cognitive enhancement using this kind of brain machine interface technology that doesn't mean we shouldn't try and that doesn't mean that there's probably not a lot of very interesting science and maybe all sorts of other benefits that we will get along the way but I think it's important to be somewhat kind of modest and accepting of the fact that there's still an awful lot. We don't understand about the brain how the brain works and how intelligence works Professor Andrew Jackson thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Up. This podcast is supported by a vast vast is a global leader in cybersecurity trusted by over four hundred, thirty, five million users of ask privacy solutions to keep your identity and actions hidden security solutions to stop malware phishing virus attacks, and performance enhancing solutions to clean up in speed up your devices avast empowers you to feel safer private and more confident online to do what you WanNa do in your connected life shop work browse confidently on all your devices learn more about a vast privacy security and performance products at avast dot com. In finally. Take our breathing almost entirely for granted. Like the beating of the heart or the work of digestive system, it feels like a process that's been taken care of by the body beyond the need of any conscious attention. But this may not be the case in his latest book breath. The new science of a Lost Art James Nestor argues that our species has actually lost the ability to breathe correctly. And that reconnecting with ancient and largely forgotten breathing practices could bring about a host of benefits both mental and physical. The one estimate I heard was that eighty percent of the population has some sort of dysfunction in their breathing. These people don't necessarily have sleep apnea or snoring even though a large percentage of the population has that but many of them may be breathed too much or struggled to breathe a little too much or their noses are constantly plugged up and once they fixed those issues they can find. How beneficial therapeutic healthy breathing really is, let's go right there. Why is breathing? So important that's something that we do twenty five thousand times a day, and if we aren't doing it properly, our bodies have to constantly compensate for instance I've heard a one estimate of about a quarter of the population suffers from chronic over breathing. We breathe way more than our bodies actually need and if we're constantly doing. That were causing a lot of wear and tear on our heart and other systems. So if you think about it, if you're in a car and you're just reading at every stop light eventually, that's going to cause a lot of wear and tear on that car an on the engine and our bodies in many ways worth the exact same way. Did we ever do it? Well did we ever? Breathe in the best way possible and if we did, how did we ever stop or forget? Well, it's hard to breathing from ancient populations. But what we can do is we can look at the skele- pitcher of all of these ancient faces and all of these mouths and what we find is that people about five hundred years ago when industrialization of food really start ramping up, they had these huge. These huge mouse in these forward growing faces. So they had larger airways in their nasal apertures were much larger than ours, and that's why ancient people didn't have crooked teeth about ninety percent of the modern population has some sort of misalignment or crookedness in their teeth. That's because we have smaller mouths without smaller mouth with a smaller away, which is one of the reasons we have so many chronic breathing problems right now how does one breathe properly? What scientists have found is that very good resting breathing rate is about six breasts five breaths per minute. That's about five to six seconds in five to six seconds out when you do this, all of the systems in the body start to synchronize your heart rate's GonNa slow down, it's going to beat more easily your blood pressure's GonNa go down if you have high blood pressure and all of this allows the body to. Do it naturally wants to do more easily over an extended amount of time and just by breathing this way over a couple of minutes, you can really feel this change in your body. You can imagine if you do that for a couple of days or a couple of weeks or a COUPLA months, and that's what I went out to find people who had done that and had really transform their health and some miraculous way. I. James. That was incredible. That's about the worst way you can possibly breath. Okay. So. I have tried seeing other Maria breathing as well, and it seems like that really did slow me down explained to me what's going on with that? Well, you're a good Catholic So what the scientists did about twenty years ago they looked at different prayers they looked at the other Maria, they looked at satire NAMA which is a Kunda leany mantra. They looked at own money pod Meeham, which is Buddhist mantra when the most famous Buddhist mantras of all and they found that all of. These prayers locked in at that same about five to six breaths per minute because that's about that the mean of all of these different prayers and they have prophesized that these prayers not just for the religious method. But because they placed the body in this state of peace and then allowed all the systems of the body to work at peak efficiency. Now, you experimented on yourself for the book or at least you took part in research by plugging up your nostrils for days on end. Tell me about this. Yeah, just hearing that gives me a little PTSD. So I had been working with the Chief of radiology research down at Stanford and we had had many conversations and he's a nose guy. So he was saying that you know the noses is this miraculous organ were not using it as much as we should and because we're not using it, we could be suffering from all of these health problems on and on and on I said, well, how soon does the damage from mouth breathing come on and he didn't know because no one had tested it. So we developed this little experiment to where me and one other. Subject to plug our noses and just breathe through or mouths for ten days and I know that sounds like some sort of cloudy Jackass stunt that wasn't the intention because fifty percent of the modern population chronically breathes through its mouth. So we were really rolling ourselves into a state that my body already knew and that most of the population already knew but testing and within a day, I went from not snoring snoring we both got sleep apnea, my blood pressure went through the roof I mean I could give you a whole laundry list of other problems now, for listeners who want to improve their health and through their breathing. How. Quickly does this transformation take place if we start being conscious and practicing nasal breathing when can we start becoming more charismatic, handsome richer and? I can't guarantee any of those things. But if you can place your hand safely, don't do this while driving over your heart and take an inhale him to account about five or six. And then to exhale and keep exiling five six, maybe seven or eight, you're gonNA feel your heart rate. Slow down and you'RE GONNA feel. If you keep doing this take another very slow inhale Halen and a longer xl. You'RE GONNA. Probably feel some circulation to your fingers and your toes. You'RE GONNA be getting more oxygen to your brain. So this transformation that I just lead you through happened in about fifteen seconds. So if you're able to control your breathing and do it in a healthy way and allow your body to work. So efficiently, these problems so many problems attached to allergies and asthma, and they've found even with autoimmune disease and anxiety and depression. Symptoms of these problems can be abated and in some cases, people no longer report suffering from them and not sound like huge claims. But this is coming from leaders in the field at top institutions. Gyms Esther. Thank you very much This was a breath of fresh air. Thank you for having. And thank you for listening to badge while you're with us, please give us a rating on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen. I'm Kentucky and in London where I'm breathing in five seconds intervals. This is the.
Startups Want to Meld Minds and Machines
"Take the scenic route in the new hyundai. Santa fe the family. Suv with available h. Track all wheel drive to help travel way off the beaten path find new adventures together in the hyundai santa fe our new book the art of business wars features stories and lessons from history's greatest business rivalries with powerful insights uncovered through hundreds of episodes of business wars go to dot com forward slash. The art of business wars to order your copy now from wondering. I'm david brown. And this is business wars daily on this thursday april twenty second. Well here's a headline for you. A nine year old monkey named pager is causing quite the stir in the tech world. That's because he's the star of a new video released by elon musk's company neuralink. The video is simply titled monkey. Mind pong and yes. It's a short clip of pager playing that classic arcade game pong without using his hands. See pager as musk explains in the video has had two small chips which must call neuralink's inserted into his brain and the chips essentially memorize the monkey's hand movements when he uses an actual joystick to play the game so when the joystick is unplugged the chips remember those movements and let pager play pong just by thinking about moving his hands. Here's musk pager. Is the second animal to show the public. Just what the neuralink chip may be able to do last fall. A pig named gertrude demonstrated how it worked during a widely hyped livestream. Her brain signals were converted to audible beeps which grew louder as she sniffed around her pen and enjoy treats according to scientific american. I have to say in this video. Pager is remarkably good at pong and wallets a startling to watch a monkey dominated video game just by using his brain neuralink does have an important application to the real world at least according to musk. Musk tweeted that. Neuralink's first product that microchip will let people with paralysis use smartphones quote faster than someone using thumbs unquote and he says later. Versions of the chips will eventually allow people with paralysis to walk. That's a huge claim and one that neuroscientists say we shouldn't expect to see anytime soon. See musk is leaning. On decades technology researchers were able to get a monkey to move a computer cursor with his mind way back in two thousand and two professor andrew jackson of the university of newcastle. Put it plainly. Quote brain control of computer cursors by monkeys is nothing new. He told insider so even though pagers getting a whole lot of attention right now musk's goal of getting people with paralysis to walk is quite away off. just ask any number of other startups. Who were just as intent to create. Something that effortlessly. Mel's mind and machine. California based startup colonel rolled out to so-called brain machine interfaces which monitor brain activity last year. The company says they hope to use the machines which were about the size of bike helmets to help people with paralysis communicate. We should note. Neither machine requires brain surgery to work. Colonel to fifty three million dollar funding round last july and swiss company maize is hard at work developing what it calls a cognate chip which is designed to mimic the way a brain receives input from multiple sensors. According to wired the chip may not sound as cool as neuralink's but mine may see yo tej taty says that's okay with him quote. It's time to get a little more aware of what is realistically possible versus. What is still fantasy. He told wired. So sorry mr. Musk may have pager playing pong but is letting people with paralysis walk again really going to happen with the chip in the brain. That is the question that will undoubtedly keep him and many others working on similar projects up all night from wondering this business worse daily. I'm your host. David brown written and produced by jessica edited by emma quarterly. Our executive producers are jenny bauer beckmann created by earn on lok take the scenic route in the new hyundai. Santa fe the family. Suv with available h. Track all wheel drive to help. You travel way off the beaten path. Fine new adventures together in the hyundai santa fe.
Brain-Machine-Interfaces - brain manipulation or brain control?
"This is an abc podcast own. So that was not shutterstock. That was actually a man in a black suit. No tie gets up on a knee empty stage at a conference in california and this land presentation. his name is elon musk. he's now the richest man in the world but back then he. We'll just one of the richest top anyway. His presentation is low key but the content is sensational and definitely futuristic. We will gradually increase the issues that we solved until ultimately we can do a full brain machine. Interface sound pretty weird but achieve a sort of symbiosis with artificial intelligence. But i think with a high bandwidth brain machine interface. I think we can actually go along for the ride and we can. Effectively have the option of merging with ai. Achieving sort of symbiosis with artificial intelligence. We'd it all. Hello anthony fennell here. Welcome to future tents. That presentation was two and a half years ago but musk is still deadly serious about his ambitions and moving the research. Food his company neuralink invest heavily in brain machine interface technology and they're not the only ones various research teams across. The world are hard at work trying to decode the brain signals and pair them up with various devices in the medical world that means artificial limbs in the like but in the tech sector. Well they're talking about a future in which people would use mind power to interact with their phones for example or read or even rewrite thought to cure addiction. It's those efforts and aspirations that will focus on today but what exactly is. How does it work. And how advanced is the actual science andrew jackson professor of neural interfaces at the university of newcastle in the uk. If we're talking particularly about what are known as invasive brain machine interfaces so those surgical implants to put electrodes to record signals from the brain. I think it's worth pointing out that. They have already been people with implants of electrode. Arrays usually is people with spinal cord injury or other forms of paralysis and in a very limited way the people who've had these electrodes implanted in the brain and be able to use brain signals to control movements of computers or assistive devices so the moment that the state of the art in that is about a hundred electrodes. It's a small bed of nails. Looks like a lot of about one hundred prongs millimeter long that have been placed into the brain of about probably twenty people also and the able to use these these brain machine interfaces to do kind of useful tasks controlling assisted vices there's also what could non invasive brain machine interfaces that using signals that can be picked up from the scalp so don't require the brain surgery but because those interfaces are slightly further away from the brain the quality of the signal is necessarily as good but again those interfaces have been used by people with paralysis to operate communication devices and that technology is also coming on quite a pace but at the moment most of these uses have been kind of small scale trials with with small numbers of people with major disabilities and what kind of movements The people who've for technologies being applied. What kind of movements are they able to make. They've been able to control the movement of a robot arm in three dimensions and also control grasping of that robot arm so that would assist with activities of daily living that has also been some demonstrations of control of electrical stimulation delivered to the paralyzed limb which helps the power limb itself. Move around now. These are not as accurate as fast as to normal healthy movements. But i think the technology definitely has potential to bring some kind of restoration of function to people who can't move their limbs at all and of course anything that you can provide in that. Context can be very useful to people suffering from these disparities. My name's nathan copland. And i have a brain computer interface. I was in a car accident. And i broke my neck. I'm actually a c. Five quadriplegic. So i have no sensation from the chest down i have some wrist extension when affliction and then i have no use of my fingers at all now nine had his bmi implants six years ago and he visits a lab at the university of pittsburgh three or four times. A week. so i actually have four arrays implanted to in motor cortex and to sensory cortex. And i'm actually the first human in the world to have implants in sensory cortex so what they allow me to do is basically. I can control a robotic arm and hand or a computer cursor or you know. I've played some games that use a computer emulator but basically they can just record my brain signals and convert them into things that the computer can use to control other things for nathan copeland. His bmi implant has given him confidence to speak about his condition but as beneficial as the implant has been. He says it hasn't changed his daily life in any substantial way and that's not meant as a criticism merely a reminder that this kind of technology really is still in its infancy. I am definitely the human guinea pig but it was really cool to be the first in the world to have these kind of implants. And i'm also glad to be in the position where people that decided to have these implants after me might have looked at me in thought you okay. He's doing okay and you know maybe that influence their decision in a positive way. So i think in areas of saying the control of movement. We have a fairly good idea. How the activity of brain cells in the part of the brain called the motor cortex. We have a pretty good idea of how that relates to movement largely. Because we've been able to study this for many decades in animals and now more recently in people using these these brain machine interfaces. I think what's interesting is if you go to other parts of the brain where particularly things that animals can't do so for instance. There is now pushed to a number of groups of working on as to decode speech from the brain to try to produce a speech interface. There we know much less because it's very hard to study speech in animals. So we have to use these human recordings and when we go further into the more kind of cognitive domain of things like sort of memories or decisions or emotions that is very much the edge of what neurosciences currently trying to understand and we have a pack much torah knowledge of how the brain is representing those kinds of ideas. There's tens of millions of neurons. That are active in the brain at any one time in our technology really only allows us access to hundreds of those at a time. So we're really under sampling. You know what's naturally happening. Talk to jennifer cola assistant professor in the department of physical medicine and rehabilitation at the university of pittsburgh. You know misconception in this field is that we can't just place electrodes anywhere and decode your thought. Right what we really need to do is target areas that we have at least some understanding of what the cells in that particular area of the brain are doing to dakota particular things so for example we implant are electrodes into motor cortex and specifically the area that typically controls arm and hand movements. We know that there's information mm in the firing patterns of those neurons that is correlated to the direction and speed that. You're trying to to reach for example. But it wouldn't necessarily tell us you know a letter that you're thinking of so you really do have to understand the science behind where you're trying to place these electrodes and how to interpret that code. And how does that count of technology. Work i mean how do you move a robotic. Come in that sense by using your brain so our participants they actually just think about moving their own arm essentially so the way that we calibrate our system is by having them watch either a robot or a virtual arm and hand move around in space to pick up and grasp objects and the participants. Just think about performing that action while we record their brain activity and so there's a very strong relationship like i said between the firing rate of those neurons so how often they're they're actually firing and the direction and speed that they want to go and so once we figure out that relationship by controlling the arm with the computer and looking at the brain activity we can give them control over that activity and they're really just thinking about where the hand needs to be in space to accomplish that task. We're talking about moving. A limb is it possible is the technology being developed modern able people with a disability. Talk all the here again. Say in terms of communication. What this field has focused on a lot is trying to improve the ability to interact with a computer and so there been a lot of recent studies looking at how to decode speech directly. There's two different approaches one is actually decoding control a computer cursor for example to interact with a virtual keyboard for communication or to actually try to decode those thoughts through the motor control of your mouth in an unseating. The sounds so there's been progress made in both of those directions. How difficult is that though. I mean how much progress has been made. I think in terms of the keyboard control. They're able to get communication rates. That really are starting to approach. You know one finger typing on your smartphone and that exceed what users have specified as being sufficient for control so. I think there's been quite a lot of progress. Decoding speech directly is newer. And there's a limited vocabulary of words that it's been tested but in recent years there's been quite a lot of progress there and being able to reconstruct fairly natural speech from words that have not been observed which brings us back to the tech titans and the potential thysie in brain machine. Interfaces we heard earlier where elon. Musk is looking to go. And then there's another key player to take into account as vox media's seagal samuel explains facebook wants to create a device that can literally read your mind so it's been funding research on brain machine interfaces that can pick up thought strictly from your neurons and translate them into words into english sentences. And it's been doing this for a while now but just a few months ago. The uc san francisco. Researchers that are in partnership with facebook announced that their algorithm can now translate neural activity into english sentences with an error rate of only three percent for vocabularies of three hundred words. That's a vast improvement over the capabilities. It had just one year earlier so the technology is moving quickly. What do we know about the technology. So how were they actually doing this. What makes their approach different so far. Facebook has begun by working with human participants in a study. Three volunteers with epilepsy. Who had already had electrodes surgically implanted on the surface of their brains. That was just part of preparation for neurosurgery. They were anyways going to do to treat their seizures and so facebook cad. These people listen to questions. Like how's your right now. and then. They spoke their answers out loud. A minute later that meanwhile the algorithm of facebook just by reading their brain activity was able to decode the answers with pretty high accuracy rates. So obviously if you have a technology that is going to be invasive and require electrodes surgically implanted in our brains. That's not going to be very commercially viable but the aim is to eventually move to noninvasive wearable headsets which would potentially become much more commercially viable as you said. They are climbing a deal of success in their initial research into these. How do we know that. That's the case. Have they been transparent with their techniques and funding so far or are we really at this judge just taking it on the research would well. I think a little bit of both. I mean they've released some papers. Not facebook itself rather the uc san francisco researchers that are affiliated with facebook so they have released a little bit of data but these sorts of projects tend to be kept bit under wraps. You see this also with elon. Musk's company near league which periodically likes to tease developments and results but keep things a little bit under wraps because companies like facebook neuralink and others like colonel not to mention the us military also working on similar tech are sort of rivals in competition with one another now. Facebook like long must company neuralink the not health related companies post say. What is facebook's interest in this type of technology given that it is a commercial platform. Facebook would say the short term goal is to help patients with paralysis by decoding their brain signals and allowing them to speak their thoughts without actually having to move any muscles. Which you know that could be a public good. There are millions and millions of people who live with paralysis. naturally facebook's long-term goal because long term. They want to reach a much much. Wider audience of billions of people and. That aim is to give everyone the ability to control digital devices like keyboards. Say using the power of our thoughts alone so that would be a much bigger deal if it were to happen and it has potential benefits as well as potential serious risks has anybody from facebook or in fact the university of california team who are working on these. Has anybody responded to concerns have been raised. Yeah i mean you see kind of boilerplate responses from facebook. Basically people saying you know we really care a lot about privacy of the brain data. We gather is kept strictly on the premises at the university. Where we're doing the research but facebook itself has said look. We know that we can't really foresee anticipate all the neuro. Ethical risks were incurring here. And that's why we're trying to talk to ethicists and build niro ethical design in from the ground floor but at the end of the day facebook is a company that like other companies cares about its bottom line and so it's the public might have reason to question to what extent facebook is going to prioritize the public good particularly given it does not have a good track record in terms of privacy cambridge analytica being only the most glaring of its privacy scandals. But seriously who could really have any qualms about profit-driven monopolistic social media companies seeking to control our thoughts. Well dr nicole. Vincent is happy to put up a hand. She's a senior lecturer at the university of technology. Sydney with an emphasis on neuro ethics and eurolaw reading people's minds. She says we'll have a whole series of new legal and ethical concerns including those around individual rights. You've got one set of people who don't really seem to think that this is a very different new technology however on the other hand one of the big issues that some new law school is pointing out. Is that if you're looking directly at the brain once upon a time. If i could ask you a question and you could still resisting. You could resist telling me what it is. You actually know on the other hand. If i just look at the brain this suddenly means that you can no longer withhold evidence now. I'm not suggesting that people should withhold evidence but notice that one of the big issues here has to do with the fact that people's consent isn't even required and one of the interesting issues that has come up. Is that if you leave behind physical evidence at the scene of a crime that is usually treated one way you know so we can collect this information. We can clip evidence analyzes but where comes to testimony giving testimony in court. We can't force you to that and indeed we cannot even legally for you to get. There are seven protections to forcing people to give evidence a right to privacy right to to remain silent. That's right batch in this particular case how should we treat niro based evidence should be treated like no physical evidence at the scene crime or should it be treated like well. You're reading someone's mind. So the distinction gets blurred and the opportunities for people's thoughts to be misused or used against them will increase vincent as the technology for interpreting and reading brain signals becomes more and more sophisticated. I think it's indian increasingly large consent. And the reason why is because the more we find out about how the brain functions the more. We're going to realize that it is indeed another mechanism and when we get evidence also the fact that somebody committed a criminal act as a consequence off how the brain is wired that then leads people to question trust themselves. A question will. Is this person responsible. It's just that the brain is wired like that and other one of the issues. This raises is whether or not we should be s- cutting people's brains to figure out if susceptible for instance to commit sin criminal offenses at the moment behavioral data. The history of how they behave in the past is much more predictive than anything else. But as that ecology improves we are going to find out more about the courts so the similarities. Between what does the grain look like in various people certain criminal offenses and whether we can use this to then make predictions about people's behavior or perhaps whether we can find certain ways of treating them so that rather than punishing criminal offenders one of the very strong movements. I've noticed his movement sago criminal offenders. They're not doing this because the bad there's no such thing as badness it's just a certain mechanisms broken the brain and what we ought to do. Is you have to fix them. And that kind of worries me right because if you've watched the movie capricorn jr. The very prospect of having a fixed doesn't quite sound right to me. It frightens me. So there are enormous ethical considerations to take into account here. Aren't there and this is going to be very complex area because we are really at the beginning in lots of ways of anura technology subway. Yes we are and people tend to focus on the ethical issues related to for instance might this technology harm somebody who has a very legitimate concern especially with new technologies. So for instance whether a certain medication or eight procedure might have an unintended side effect. That's the sort of stuff we usually think about. But actually for me. I love ethical considerations stem from the way in which our society navy right because if we are not going to treat people as people if we're going to start treating as broken machines in need of being fixed. This raises questions that has free. Will it raises questions about more responsibility. And is it. Only the case that somebody can be morally responsible person when the brain functions like we wanted to function something that i wouldn't want to see happening. The potential that it's an allergy should measured by its ability to generate good right. The brain changes all the time that so when you learn it alters its own wiring now if we are going to create prosthetic brancusi's prosthetic devices that actually the brain that the brain the news licenses for its purposes. You know maybe to make you remember things better maybe to make you pay attention better. Who knows then. The brain itself will actually lose some of the functionality that would have otherwise head if it had relied upon. Its own hardware. The hardware for bone with more importantly what that means is that from the perspective of going forward right once. The brain becomes reliant upon this device. What happens when the device breaks. You've lost the abilities to the from these functions yourself because they've been offloaded onto this prosthetic device and the prostate device. No longer works so funny while the issues of this brings up. Is that whenever. You're going to start interfacing the brain with something else. You've got to remember that the brain is going to adopt. Because that's what the brain does it'll change and you'd better hope that the device and if the device alters itself as it learns about how to communicate with the brain you'd better hope that the device can be reproduced. It breaks rights. Because he had can't it can't be reproduced with all of its special new reprogramming. That had engaged in well. Then you would effectively be suffering from something like brain damage. And i really worry about this sort of scenario dr nicole vincent from the university of technology sydney with future tents on aren. Abc radio's national. Exploring the world around us looking for the pathways ahead and signposting the future. Let's go right back to the beginning. Now and the company neuralink the brief that elon. Musk set for his. Scientists is stratospheric ambitious as we mentioned merging. Humans with ai. But the company's most recent work has been much more grounded and practical. They've been focused on the mechanics of bmi on creating better device for implanting electrodes into the brain. So what does the university of newcastle's andrew jackson make any device the state of the art until now is a raise of about one hundred electrodes. So that would be kind of hundred channels of recording from the brain. What neuralink has done is is. increased by. An order of magnitude are gone up to about a thousand electrodes and these are flexible individual wise that can be put in different parts of the brain and obviously to insert a thousand wise into the brain hand would take surge in quite a long time. So they've also developed a surgical robot to implant those fine flexible wise automatically and this is quite nice firstly because it speeds up the surgery but also the robot can do things like identify where blood vessels are and so avoid damaging blood vessels during the surgery so in principle this should be a safer speedy away to implant a brain machine interface into the brain. I know you have issues around not necessarily the technology that you were talking about the but around some of the aspirations i guess you could say that elon. Musk in particular has about what they can do. Particularly around people's memories. Yeah so. I think my issue is nearly that in discussions. They can be quite quick to segue from what i think are practically useful applications of brain machine interfaces into territory that becomes much harder to see the route to get that the kind of device neuralink is developing will have enormous benefits for people with profound disabilities things like paralysis perhaps restoring some degree of vision to the blind. But i think it's when they segues into talk of enhancement so the idea that we might be able to for for instance right new memories into our brain or upload memories onto a hard drive or into the cloud and i suppose my hesitation there is partly because we know less about how the brain systems work and also because. I think we have to be realistic. The moment the kinds of benefits that you can get from using a brain machine interface still. Nothing like the sophistication of a normally functioning nervous system so this is to some extent. These are useful tools for people who have been paralyzed say had lost a sensation but to enhance our brain function over and above what one might describe as kind of normal healthy levels is much harder prospect. I think harder but is it possible. I mean is it canopy down in the future some stage so i liken this talk sometimes to the development of speech recognition systems so in the nine hundred eighty s or so we had speech recognition systems. That required being calibrated to an individual voice. And you'd have to sit in front of your computer and say a lot of different words and the speech recognition system would eventually learn to recognize your voice and then you would have to use it very slowly and you'd get probably about half of the words correct and then you'd have to go in and type the remaining words. Nowadays you can buy something from amazon or other other online retailers that you can put on your mantlepiece and anyone can walk into the room and talked with will understand that now could be brain machine interfaces. We'll get to that point. So that an interface could be put in my brain would recognize. My thoughts and similar league could could recognize your thoughts but at the moment the system for doing that would have to be. I would have to sit down and think all of the thoughts. I might possibly want to communicate through the interface and a scientist or an algorithm would have to match up those thoughts with those brain signals. And now i think at the moment is a fundamental limitation for how these interfaces could work that calibration process works for movements in a small number of directions but when you start thinking about the totality of memories that you could have will or ideas that you could hold in your brain. We're gonna have to come up with some better way of calibrating. The system and that to me is a scientific question. And we don't currently know the answer so it may be the science that we discover in feature will allow interfaces to somehow generalize and not require this very time consuming calibration stage. But we haven't got back the moment now. I think it's a fascinating question to ask there. Lots of people doing really great research in this area. And i also think that the neuralink device can be great tool in helping research along. But it's not necessarily certain. The trajectory of brain machine interfaces will follow that same trajectory that speech recognition has followed where it's gone from being a very experimental thing in a in a few decades to being really kind of commonplace technology professor. Andrew jackson bringing our program on machine interface technology to a close. We also heard from dr nicole vincent. Sa- girl samuel nathan copland and assistant professor jennifer challenger. My thanks to co-producer current savannah and also edwina start. I'm antony fennell until next time cheese. You've been listening to an abc podcast. Discover more great. Abc podcasts live radio and exclusives on the abc listen up.
Elon Musk's Neuralink Successfully Implanted
"Got Ourselves. Update a neuro link update. This happened I guess over the weekend or maybe just after we were here on Friday when did this happen? Friday Friday. He does he did a whole presentation. There were pigs. you had pigs that's when you know Israel. As how you know when the science is actually happening when the pig show up Yeah or the mice. The trials on the mammals. And then you're getting closer to the human because we're not all that different than pigs to be honest with you. Or pretty close I think we we like to think of ourselves as you know. More advanced more beautiful, more intelligent. We. Walk on two legs. This is about it. You know that's the main difference s holidays difference. Really. It's all took anyway they got brains those pigs got brains and. They, have complex brains like we do. And so they started their trials on will there there were three pigs present? No one no neuro link pig one, nine link no longer neuro link pig and one current neuro link pig. And had them all there And for the first time, they showcased a live feed. Of, the neuro link pigs brain activity during the presentation. Which? Seemed very enthusiastic about they also talked about this new robot that they are. Designing to aid in the installation of this module. They also talked about how they sort of changed. Their approach. Because if you recall originally, well, the device was mounted somewhere behind the ear. And now. It appears that they've decided sort of more on the upper part of the skull and there will be a little section. Your skull is a tiny sexy we'll get don't get. Or here case can carve out to Selena tiny circle out of your skull come on to make room, and if they do it right there's no blood. That's right. He you see you'd be surprised you know the brain tissue and If, you do it correctly. I have to say the carving out of the coin side section of the skull. No I listen I'm a a tech enthusiast so I remain open minded. CAA. I, got it I. Good. I mean it. It does sometimes that just happened. But you start taking a coin skull out of your head and think at least at first people can be. A little bit resistant. And a little bit apprehensive as the word I'm looking for. Anyway. Of course, we've heard all the claims about this thing. And All the potential applications for something like this. It's a lot of theory right now it's a lot of promise right now starting with treatment for certain conditions. which would make sense that will be an area. You'd WANNA target initially because you counter act some of the apprehension for a person who may be suffering or hoping to fix something they're willing to try a lot of things. Yes. Health health reason health. And you feel that the threshold for risk is a bit different than a human who isn't in search of some sort of remedy. That person on the other hand where it's more, I want superhero powers. Want to enhance my sense of. What were they suggesting earlier around hearing or something like this that. Customer that eventual commercialization has to come down the road because. Eight almost feels. Too early for that. Is Not the natural place to start. Now one thing that came out of me from his pre came out to me from his presentation is that there's not that much yet K-, no, they're trying to figure out this actual physical device, the installation of this device these. Little Strand. This cabling that's as thin as A. Human hair. And okay a now, we can extract some information from some brain activity, which is what they showcase, but as far as interpreting it, that's where the magic comes in well, interpreting it and potentially inserting or sending data back the other way. Now the PIG's help. Having a pigs there it feels a lot more real. And live and live and organic. However, it doesn't change the fact that is a super long way to go. In order to deliver any of the proposed stuff but I feel the need to put it out here. INTO THE UNIVERSE Then almost everything starts that way. Yeah. As an idea. An, execution is difficult. Making things is difficult, and in fact, I've actually got a little twitter exchange here, which is the next Hab over over part of the same thing. Where we have a user here before everyone gets too excited about the Elon Musk Nurlan demo. Here's what professor, Andrew Jackson professor of neural interfaces. At Newcastle University says, this is solid engineering but mediocre neuroscience. And you can go through and read it well, maybe I'll just do a quick piece of it. I don't think there was anything revolutionary in the presentation, but they are working through the engineering challenges of placing multiple electrodes into the brain in terms of their technology. Ten twenty four channels is not that impressive these days but the electronics to really them wirelessly is state of the art and the robotic implantation is nice. So he saying. that. What they're working on. As. Not as revolutionary as some might think because. Well. For the most part, the average person is not up to date on. The current. Neuro science when it comes implants. But of course you you may recall faintly that you've seen someone control a cursor on a screen with their mind in the past. At, the bottom of this. Quote here. So in summary I would say this is solid engineering but mediocre neuroscience finally, I think it is unfortunate that they are presenting their work in this way rather than publishing peer reviewed papers that would allow their claims to be scrutinized but I guess this is something that we will have to get used to as neural interfaces move from the academic to the commercial sector. Okay. So here's a key will. It's all fine and Dandy to be an academic side and have these very high standards and live in the Peer Review viewed world and all the rest of it. But Ultimately. That world relies on funding of some kind. You need people interested at some point is I'm trying to say. I mean. Part of the presentation, there was actually hiring people exactly and how do you hire people and how do you secure funding unless? There's promise commercial, eventual, commercial promise eligible the at some point it doesn't have to be immediately but at some point, otherwise, it remains Nizhny remains small. Once. You put something in somebody's pocket the average person. Then we see this the pace of things improve vastly because now. Who can sell it and if you can sell it, you can hire and if you can hire talent, you have more more people. Putting their minds together into one particular goal. Now, I, understand. I feel the apprehension. I can also understand why a guy like this a neuroscientist. Or better yet the professor of neural interfaces what feel a little bit. He looks at it will and he says. I've been working on this stuff for years for a decade. I've been working on this stuff and then Mr Ilan Koslow MR famous Mr, famous guy. And he's the neural interface guy now all of a sudden. Here, for decades, not only in semi name. So I get that too. And there's two sides who there's always two sides to it. But one thing in on his does has done and I do not think you can dispute this is he has brought attention to the sciences. He brought attention to space now this. Ai. In terms of self driving vehicles, it's gotten people interested because it is marketable and because he does pushed the agenda, he pushes it forward can that be risky absolutely. Absolutely it could be risky but. It appears to be powerful. Powerful in the sense that it can. kind of rapidly increase. Whether for better for worse, can rapidly increase our progression towards something by generating the hype necessary to gather the funds necessary to hire the talent necessary to keep the war going. Alonzo wanted to do it. He's the guy. Says you're boring company there you. Anyway. He says here's Yvonne Response. It is unfortunately common for many in academia to overweight the value of ideas and underweight bringing them to fruition. For example, the idea of going to the moon is trivial but going to the moon is hard. He. Once again is trying to trying to say, yeah, of course, this is going to be hard to do. Thanks I noticed it's going to be hard to do. WE'RE GONNA learn a lot along the way. Anyway, what can I say I don't even know if it's good or bad in a long term like right there so much anytime you're taking a leap anytime. You're taking a risk I. Know There's GonNa be comments. On this video right here that will say, is this what we want for humanity? Right, not everybody's going to be on the same page about that. So I'm speaking I think more big picture on trying to achieve something in general Big Picture on trying to make something viable to get people interested to therefore. Be Able to gather the resources necessary to build something whatever it happens to be whether you agree with this or not, and let's be honest. Well, maybe the commercialization and the long term application of something like this, you may have a conversation about. Ethics and whatever else. But in the short term. Would that focus on Treatment If it's able to achieve this for people who are in great need that's going to do wonders for the conversation going forward, which is likely why would target that I if you were thinking about marketing and that's really the part that's the area when it comes to Elon Musk and. Elon Musk analysis that goes overlooked. Without having a marketing piece without having a voice. That gets the ball rolling And oftentimes those in academia or. Neuro scientists or I mean I'm not gonNA. Paint it with a with a with a wide brushing. See that everybody. Is exactly this but marketing not always in area of expertise that comes along. With safer example engineering experts science expert scientists neuro scientists. Or? Professors of neural interfaces and Newcastle University. Right. Walmart and Microsoft stocks are falling. Because believed to be because partially about some new export rules coming out, of China, apparently that may influence or impact a potential tiktok deal. Take Talk to you. We talked about a number of different potential suitors. They could spend twenty billion. You were telling me today about. Trailer potentially making a move there in the mix Walmart was supposed to team up with. Microsoft Oracle was in the mix. We had sequoia. Some of the investors invite dance in the mix twitter was barely in the mix it seemed for about five minutes. But it kept coming back to Microsoft is being a potential home, a potential home for TIKTOK. But then Friday China unveils these new export restrictions covering such computing and data processing technologies as text analysis, content, recommendation, speech modeling, and Voice Recognition Saint Technologies on the list can be exported without a license from local commerce authorities. Now, some believe this is directly targeted at the potential for a Tiktok deal suggesting that tiktok technologies potentially, it's algorithm and and different. Software behaviors whatever intellectual property exists there. Potentially, that can't even be exported without the approval of the Chinese government or at least a license being granted that you can go ahead and transport transport that. So of course, investors that were feeling a very confident or or at least positive about the potential for Microsoft deal. They get a bit nervous. They say damn. Throw money over years might not go down could have been good for Microsoft could have been a extra revenue stream or Walmart for that matter. So they jump out. And other say. It's still going to happen some say, look the time is ticking. There's GonNa be a deal done because otherwise you to zero. Right just a quick refresh bike, Dan's already makes domestic product of Tiktok in China called due. Date date tick Tuck as a business export product. Because, they got something else that they call it locally and I don't know how to be the business back end works but. That the part that they were trying to sell was only the export part US Canada New Zealand Australia, and the UK. Where we're in. That makes the English speaking. Western. Whatever you WANNA call it. So these export restrictions question is going to happen anyways whereas this just. Some nice little timing radio. Many believe that. It can't just be a coincidence many believe I'm not I don't know but many believe it can't be a coincidence and this is the aim here is to put a. Pause on a potential acquisition buying American farm because maybe politically speaking that's not such a good look for the Chinese government I don't know. These are just suggestions in speculation, which is what kind of do. And what people expect. And of course, really you're an expert at this point, you've seen it all happen many times and it's a messy business right now to talk I mean they're trying to sue the trump administration. which is a tough he sued the president is pretty tough and they have thirty days left for this by Al Mess, right. Now you know there's a there's a push being made from from these various American firms, and for sure they're going to have a little bit of poll but ultimately if. The Chinese government says, no, you cannot export this. You are accompany here they can kinda pull the same thing on their end that's happening on the US end and say this cannot be exported. Now, the difference as I said to you is then then the value of that sub brand tiktok, it maybe doesn't go to zero, but it dipped substantially having lost India the United States, presumably, Canada, all these markets that they aimed to continue to sell it in cell the ads associated with the content. Also if you're the Chinese government, you might say. Well here we got twenty billion on the table coming into this nation twenty, thirty, fifty, billion, whatever it ends up being maybe we should take something instead of nothing. So what but then again, what's twenty thirty billion scope of geopolitics and all the rest of the maybe more important to not look like. You. Adjusted. On behalf of a leader somewhere else who you're in a dispute with. So anyways. for the time being looks like it's on pause but otherwise similar reports saying deal could be done in the next two days. Yeah. So we gotta wait and see. speaking of a deal being done like done done. kway has pulled out of its oldest sports sponsorship relationship with of really famous. Australian. Rugby League team. I didn't know about them. I don't watch all that much rugby, but I understand rugby's a big deal will. In Australia. Have you ever been tossed failure I have actually Cindy I I've never been. So did you taking any rugby then? No Oh. I was in Sydney Yeah and no rugby rugby for you and he rugby's maybe some rugby jerseys you saw on the people. Yeah you probably did. This team Canberra Raiders. Probably not saying right. They had to deal with wally for nine years and while we can't do it anymore we're banned from the from the network's. All kinds of problems from the local government nobody's into it. And what are we doing plastering the logo on the shirts people can you can't do business here? What's the point of spending all this money? I'm sure that's what the internal conversations were about Chinese telecom telecom giant Hallway announced on Monday. It is ending its oldest major sporting sponsorship deal in the world when it ends its contract with Australian Rugby League Team Camera Raiders after nine years. Blaming a quotations continued negative because environment. Now, Australia. Bhardwaj away awhile ago actually this surprise me how how long have you been a kind of ongoing issue in fact? While he's the decision to sponsor the team. Back, in two, thousand, twelve came months after the government banned the company on security grounds from involvement in the rollout of Australia's broadband our in twenty eleven. How long has this been going on for a lot of people think this is us only by the way that the hallway beef and I don't blame you. It's been so much press about it specifically trump's impression and all the rest of it but this has been a global thing for a while now. and. It's multifaceted. So Australia was already restricting quality from its networks back in twenty eleven at which point while we goes ahead and sponsors are really high profile sports team in order to try to, you know potentially change the sentiment. And turn around the public opinion about whether or not they should be able to sell to those. To. Those telcos for the expansion of that network Obviously here we are almost ten years later and it didn't work. Almost ten years later and they gotta pull out completely we have. A quote here from. A. Jeremy Mitchell, Australia's chief corporate affairs officer for. Even after the Turnbull government banned us from five G. we managed to find the resources to continue the sponsorship, but we just can't financially supported any longer. So I think that makes a lot of sense to me I mean I don't need to read into that too much further. This is pretty obvious stuff. You can't do business there or you have a limited facet limited ability to do business there. These sponsorships begin to make a little bit less sense and I was bringing up the one because I think candidate is also just banned from our networks. Is that true? Did I read that? Funny here we are sitting in Canada, and somehow, I missed that story. But. It just seems. So impending Oh. Must Ban. That's August seventh. Maybe click the news heading there Google. There have been calls to ban I don't know if it's officially done here in. Canada yet. But apparently It's on the table and we've been having this increasing while we sponsorship on local sports as well. on hockey night in Canada and stuff like this. So a has been an angle for hallway to try to build sentiment with the customer base, which may or may which they would believe would or wouldn't have a positive impact on their continued ability to do business but. It turns out the plan. Me May not work after all in a number of places including. Well to get started places like Australia. Apple says, APP. Store appeals process is now lives. So developers can start challenging decisions. We had two, four, nine stuff. We have the hey email client we have the facebook stuff and the Microsoft stuff there's so many. Different groups and we have the indy or smaller developers who have had issues with apple prior to all of this and. We even. had. All kinds of comments about apple's policies leading up to ww DC, which was a while back before any of the profile stuff with epic and all that took place. At that time apple was already considering making changes to their appeals process. Not. Necessarily, their policy I guess the appeals processes part of the policy, but making it easier for appeals to take place and those changes actually. Just recently went live. So they were revealed at W. W. DC in June. But there live now and this means developers can challenge apple over whether their APP is in fact violating one of its guidelines. Apple also says, developers can suggest changes to the APP store guidelines through form submission. In its online developer portal so Apple. tempting to receive. Suggestions negative feedback. Suggestions about. Not, just say a denial, but also whether or not a policy should exist that led to the denial and various challenges like I read recently about a VPN company. Who successfully? appealed. A decision by apple even though they but it looks like they weren't necessarily violating policies in the first place. APERTURES has this really restrictive approval process. Sometimes, companies really don't even know or developers especially small time develop. They don't know this thing keeps getting I can't get my APP approved and It's it's a little bit of a guessing game from time to time. And I suppose that they're apples working towards some greater level of transparency at a time where that would be very important where the press hasn't been all that positive when it comes to develop relationships with the APP store. So they were able to actually sort things out with the hey email APP, which is from the developer. Base camp. and. But that kind of happened right before everything blew up with epic and the rest of it. The compromise between base camp and IOS? was their base camp would add dummy accounts to the IRS APP allowing customers to sign up and then transition to a paid account later on the web. So they had kind of stopgap because the whole thing's been around payments if you ever want to acquire a customer inside of Ios and then later get them to pay elsewhere apple's not gonna like it. So you can expect now with this new APP store appeals process that they're going to get an absolute flow. Of requests from developers looking for some different treatment than what has currently existed within apple's terms and plenty of challenges to those actual terms. Now, the good thing here is that apple can hear directly from the developers and say we had one thousand requests change this particular policy and now they've got some real data where they can maybe have a better recognition of the exact impact that they're having developers are where. Developers are failing ultimately if developers fail. And I know people saying, okay apple is so huge. This is impossible but if developers fail over and over again and then they don't develop that next coup up eventually somebody suffers right everybody wants the best experience in the next best product and apple will even come out and say it. But if the policies are restricted to the point where people aren't attempting to build these companies and brands and cool. APPS, and all the rest of it then all of a sudden it can had the other direction I'm not suggesting it's there yet but I'm saying it is a possibility. This is a good step well to way listening. Absolutely there's at least some level of dialogue now I'm sure if you talk to sweeney from epic, he'd say this is nothing this is lip service So this is apple pretending that they're listen he does what he would say yes but ultimately I think for small develop Bradtha least they got something. Going on so iphone twelve to come in dark blue color option. We heard about this rumor previously. Wildly popular midnight green from the previous model iphone eleven, and the thinking was that apple while for a while the thinking spin that apple would do this midnight blue color of new report here from digitize claiming that the dark blue iphone color will be available for the first time. On this next generation iphone twelve some other colors being potentially suggested in another rumor light blue violet light orange among others. What color are you looking for here? Well. I really like the Green. From The midnight Green Yeah. I. Actually watched a little short film I. Don't remember if apple put it out or someone else about. The. Japanese company responsible for the pigment in that particular green because there's very specific requirements. And demands when apple chooses a color, you're going to need a ton of it and they also had some pretty strict environmental requirements. On how you can manufacture this pigment. Maybe, you're not gonNA find it, but it's it was a really cool video somebody will find it and Maybe linked. But yeah. I, think blues cool. I like the idea of them having a new color with each model also also identified in this report is that and this is not really a surprise expectation is that apple is going to have a reduction in shipments. Compare for the twelve compared to the same period. Last year for the IPHONE eleven possibly a decline of around five million units the target within this rumor sixty three to sixty, eight, million units in the second half of this year. Many reasons why? The global economy obviously delays obviously when it comes to securing the parts necessary to build these things also potentially apprehension for Chinese. Customers around what's happening with their software in the APP store and we chat, and there's just you're up against a lot right now and twenty twenty. So. I. I can believe that you could see a reduction in shipments however, maybe the blue can save the day the dark blue iphone. It's a nice car. It's a nice color I agree with that. Twelve inch macbook returning in arm form with fifteen to twenty hour battery life I. Don't know if you remember the there was a twelve inch macbook it wasn't that popular. Well I say that without looking at the statistics just. anecdotally, my life experience you had to starbucks when you could head to the starbucks not allowed twelve inch. You don't pay attention when I'm in there, I can't help it like what do you use it always surprises me how the surfaced products started to pop up more in my life and around, and maybe college students can speak to this. Where they made it might have seen a few of those but anyway, I'm always looking at people's laptops when I'm at the coffee shop when I used to be at the coffee shop and the twelve inch was a rarity is a small little laptop kind of a stopgap it was almost outdated. So shortly after it came out, but it was very thin and light and Super Portable, which has always been an interesting thing to me dating back to the original twelve inch powerbook which I owned one of the very first if not the first. It was the first apple laptop that I ever owned. Really. Yeah. Really cool design on it. Especially for the time I mean it looks blocking dated by today's standards that I do not have the titanium when that's a fifteen inch that you just clicked on, it will be that one, the G. Four powerbook in the top left corner. There you go. This thing was small I remember the advertising campaign actually you had many me from Austin powers. Oh. y'All maiming and Yao Ming had the twelve inch powerbook and mini-me had the seventeen inch powerbook and they were on a flight and it was like whichever one floats your boat, which everyone's suits you in the the huge guy with the smallwood in a small guy with the huge you see how that goes now screwed advertising. So back in the day while what time I ordered that I was on I was. Is it a saying I was on top of the moon that saying that I just made of the world's top world. Why did I want to say top two moon and my thinking about space? Space. Travel. It still looks very clean. I was on top of the moon. Yeah. When I got that whether it's a saying or not as where I was you can find me on a moot. You won't find me what my powerbook. And So anyway they never they kept the twelve inch. To twelve inch form factor but then it didn't it didn't really It wasn't really all that successful I guess because they discontinued it over a year ago. But it makes a lot of sense when you go to their own arm chip well, because now you're really thinking about. Power efficiency and you're thinking about portability. I mean look at this little guy I've got right here on the table to surface. Do I mean form factors? We're all thinking about it. We're thinking about thin and light we're thinking about You know lack of heat. Were thinking about. These sort of solid state units. No Fan just once you're in the arm territory, it gets very exciting from that standpoint ultra portability even in your laptop. So you can imagine them doing a twelve inch arm based MAC book. No fans super slim kind of like the moment with the original Mac book air. Where everyone's like? Is it in that envelope? Yeah able or chopping vegetables. With the sharp edge, this could be even sharper thinner and the best part of it is fifteen to twenty hour battery life, which again, coming back to the portability side of things, all kinds of advantages to designing and controlling the thermals all the way from the processor. Down to the aluminum chassis and the whole thing top to bottom you get a lot of control. So we can see the twelve inch comeback, no I I have to pick it up and take a look if it. Does come to be, but it's always confusing what apple because they really want you to be on his ipad with the keyboard attachment everything else and then I'm always on a laptop no matter what And so while this one's for you then that one's for me. All right we'll. Take a little bit of a a real turn with you here, and you'd ever expected it. When you saw TMZ headline might take a real turn. You hear. Two little girls use Wi fi for school outside the Taco Bell. And they were trying to hop on Wifi. The TACO Bell and people were concerned these girls were left there to try to do their homework. Oh. Okay and this got me thinking now it was. It was a somewhat viral post by the looks of in a couple of people were. Upset that these girls didn't have the access they need to participate in school because obviously depending on where you are whether schools are open or not California. Definitely not at the moment. Everything's gone. Online. And people don't have the same access never mind access. Well, what about to actual physical premises you occupy? Do. You even have a dining room table. Do you even have? Is everybody sharing a small space because try to get onto zoom like that? Or a laptop or a laptop or connectivity, which you gotTa pay the bill every month, and what are you gonNa cut if you're short on funds Or. You're not working which a lot of people are are not working right now. You may be you cut the Internet and you try to hop on the Wi fi wherever you can, and of course, it got me thinking well. Initially my brain went to starlink where I was like. You got the you got the satellite Internet now. You're still GONNA have to pay money for that. So that doesn't really solve much but then they went to the next place. And in next place. I guess Oh. Wow. Like a covert advertisement for Taco Bell. Is that what you're thinking? No not at all but I like where you're going. Okay let's hear. Let's hear what you got. Well, I mean like these kids who really want Internet connection. I mean Taco. Bell there you go. You can grab a meal and no because you're. In California, you still can't even go into Taco Bell. That's why the girls are sitting outside. Oh, well, I mean eventually you'd what's that they can order food. But they're sitting the reason the picture went viral because they're just sitting on the pavement and the Taco Bell employees like why are you sitting on the pavement? That's true. Yeah. This this photo tells a lot. Yeah. So. So. Anyway. What got me what what the way it got me thinking all right and the by the way these girls have been identified and people came together and help them out as well. Afterwards. But what it got me thinking thinking about was education in general and how things have shifted online. and. You know there's education funding is maybe it's not what people wanted to be depending on the district and area that you happen to be in. But right now if people aren't going to schools. Maybe. There's a way. To repurpose. Some of that funding. So that, there can be some level of connectivity because ultimately right now, what is your access to the world? If you're I mean these girls are what like twelve years old? Their entire potential rests on that Internet connection right I, and I guess a laptop that's how interacting with their education. Completely that's their. That's their access to the outside world outside of their own personal quarantine whatever the happens to look like And so you start to wonder if we as a society, put some resources into education at all and say, Oh, there's going to be a premises here where everybody goes and is going to be a premises here where. Bergen. They'RE GONNA WE'RE GONNA use tax dollars to employ teachers to teach kids. Then in the world that we're in right now wouldn't version of that be. To enable these kids to get online at least at the bare. Minimum. Now I know things don't move that fast you can't just start sending checks and. You need to vote on things and I understand all that. But this is kind of an interesting glimpse into. Our current situation. And how? Families depend on those schools. As not just as a way to learn but also as a place to be during the day like presumably. I mean sitting on the floor there's a notebook there with a pencil I'm just saying it's an image. It's really it really is an image and the Taco bell employees like what you guys doing here. Now, I do feel the need to also put this out there because I know we have a global audience and I'm sure there's some people in some other country in the world this. This is how connect every day. This is what you mean. I don't know. Normal for me you know and and that's just me being aware of the global audience and the differences that exist in the disparity that exists. But ultimately, like I said I believe that there is in California they took place there is funding that goes to the school school shut down at the moment. I don't know if it's possible to act rapidly enough but that connection. That's all you got right now and so you would hope that there's some way in which. People that are in this situation have some sort of alternative means to to get their schoolwork done but showed up to these girls do your work anyways by the way, maybe to twelve thirteen, ten age faces are covered which I like as well but. They got the notebook on the sidewalk. And they're getting it done and your mom's not even there and and. Kind of a shout out to them. Yeah. Shut up. We have a leak here on a new GOPRO Hero Nine I. saw you reading about this earlier as well gopro still doing China find. Maintained their position in this whole thing. So difficult, you know the Action Camera. Was a were Gopro, put the action camera idea on the map, and it is still in action camera, but cameras in general increasingly, the market shares been gobbled up by smartphones that have continued to get better. And then smartphones even went ahead and got the Wide Angle Lens at the Cobra was famous for and people started using that now smartphones or not as rugged as the GOPRO and you're still plenty of applications where it's the best choice. But it's just harder to justify the current landscape of things to spend five hundred dollars on a Gopro when your smartphone does a pretty good job part of the time most of the time. But I've looked at some relatively recent versions to go pry looked at the hero eight and I'm amazed at some of the stuff they're doing with stabilization. They're now talking about the next generation potentially going up to five K.. Anyway. They're hanging in there. All right and this next version. Appears to. Point or indicate to US what their? Strategy might be going forward. There is a relatively healthy vlogger community going on on Youtube. There's bloggers. And I know Sony they have sort of dominated that market place. They've recently came out of logging Z Z. One that the name of it. Targeting. The tools. That have logger would want to have on their on their camera including a flip around LCD display a better microphone and And this is one area where it appears. You can actually find something better than what your smartphone is capable of. Because if you WANNA have a screen in your spiteful now you're on the front facing camera and those are never really that good and. Certainly not if you're launching a youtube channel I'm not saying you can't but you understand the target market for a product like this one. So pro thing hey, we can have a piece of that. If we want five hundred dollars from people. So here we have this hero nine. And they put a screen on the front. Not just. Black and white or gray tone LCD that tells you. A little bit of information but an actual color LCD which presumably could give you a preview of what you're looking at, which is kind of key characteristic for of lager. So, we'll have to wait and see this is just a leak at the moment. But like I said from facing display and potentially five K, maybe it'll be enough to convince some people to pick up a GOPRO. the next version of GOPRO. This is an interesting one. I think you might have a point of view on this well. Sony is GonNa make some of their exclusive first party titles available on PC. Now, don't go any further. I want you to tell me why they would do this. Market share. Maybe Go ahead to. Compete with Microsoft and their titles right Maybe to have I guess yeah just market share. I. Imagine having like you know last of us or God of war on PC, they'll be awesome. I would totally buy a PC for for that. Okay you're wrong oh look. I mean, maybe you're not wrong completely I'm sure that that would play some sort of a role. But it's actually the opposite. They don't want you to buy a PC to play the game. They were going to reluctantly give you the title on pc much later in order to let you know what you missed out on by not having had a playstation. So early access. Almost, like on place like a tiered system, if they can make you a fan of a particular series because you don't have a playstation yet, but you're on PC, you may invest in playstation. So next time around you get that title straight away. Apparently they're trying to sell the playstation brand as a whole the game they're talking about. I, never played it horizon. Zero Dan. Have you heard of it? I just got it on PC. Wow. Okay. So that was a playstation title is now available on Steam how much did you pay for it? Gosh I think it was like sixty or seventy bucks. Even. Though it's much later. Yeah. I'm going to have to check okay. Someone else bought it but I was playing it. Someone bought it on your steam. How does that work you have shared steam? Yeah Oh interesting. Okay. Is that legal? No. A Euro, Gamer as Euro Gamer reports confirmation of future. PC, ports was discovered in the company's twenty twenty corporate report. We will explore expanding our first party titles to the platform in order to promote further growth in our profitability. A. I think it's important that we stay open to new ideas of how to introduce more people to play station and show people maybe what they've been missing out on by not having had a playstation. Let's see. You See. So it can be. Both things you weren't completely wrong. Obviously, profitability is what every company operates on. But if it's even It could be if you're non playstation Gamer, you really enjoy playstation gaming experience on pc with playstation exclusive title. Then, your potential profitability goes through the roof because you may then turned into a subscriber, a playstation purchaser. Buying the exclusives more earlier, this is an older game as I mentioned, but you could imagine it applying to other Sony exclusives that could be really big on pc at a later date and games. You're a fan of all these Sony Exclusive Game Oh. Yeah. Naughty dog and. I think Santa. Monica. Studios. Looking to war it's Great Willie Hyundai Motors unveils ionic brand song with bt S. Your big BTS guy. You're everytime be theus is in trending. You have to tell me you're like this forty, four, million views in five minutes. I was like Holy Moly. How does he how they do it? Yeah. Why? The. You know the transfer of Korean culture to absolutely. No. Way Not be themselves. I don't be part of that part of the culture. Yeah. I mean a big part of the culture maybe the biggest part of the culture I don't know I'm always tracking a difference black paint bts who's pulling the numbers I don't know I don't know who's bigger or whatever. I think beats. Yes. Probably I'm just guessing they did the on boxing video people came at me on twitter when they did a I think it was a Samsung on boxing video and look beat the S. Lou. They're better than you over here and they're better than. You know they're everywhere they go turn everything they touch turns to Gold Apparently everyone loves beets I'm sure somebody doesn't love them, but it's certain appears everybody loves them. So this one, two, three, four, five, six, seven guys. That was another thing I was curious about when we when you made me watch the music video I was like how many are there? How many guys they got in this thing? Because it wasn't the backstreet boys. They only had like four five at five five. Okay. Well, man you just keep going wife it's fifteen. Well. There are Korean groups with. Over ten over ten, it's incredible. I. Don't know them by. But you Kinda do. But anyway so they're now they're doing all the marketing. So shout out to them there signing deals left right and center, and I can't even I can't even figure out how they all get along. I can't figure out how they sit down and go. Yeah. We'll take that deal not that one will will be at this event. We'll do a live performance seven guys do you think they make the decisions? Mass, route, how dare area of course they do their? They call the shots. Anyway. They got another deal another big deal going on here. It was the on boxing video that they got and I didn't get and they got instead of me, and now they gotta deal with Hyundai Motors on on the brain which I want to look at those cars as well. But they did the officials saw. And I didn't even know cars had officials songs which you can download for free. On the website, you didn't know cars had official songs with beats. Yes. No this is the first ever I don't know the brand. Song. IONIC I'm on it s the name of the saw will be distributed on the automakers global website seven PM Monday. Believe it or not as when we're filming this. So it's all happening. It's all developing so rapidly. Let's hear the song will be downloaded on global website and the music video will be released. On. The Youtube. Channel Hyundai's Youtube Channel at eleven am on Wednesday. Right, here that's the lyric video. Yeah that's not the official or give us. Can we play any of it? We're going. We're going to let you go listen to it for yourself but anyway, you got the official do what do you think they paid for that? What did holiday pay for that? Seven guys they all get paid. Hundred Mil. Okay not how they did not one hundred mil you maniac. Quite a few Mil quite familiar quite a few men would get one each. No no I don't think. So I don't think they got these got seven mill, the Bryan Song. I mean look first of all, there's probably way more to the package so they would probably be ambassadors to this car brand for awhile. So events. Maybe. If it's part of a bigger deal, you might be on would. Yeah all right and what I what do we know man I would like to know. I onic somebody. Let us know people put your guesses down in the comments whatever they were paid for this particular partnership. Anyway video comes out on Wednesday. We're you know we're GONNA be here waiting. We'll give you. We'll give you the feedback. We'll give you the reaction. So Shaquille O'Neal has said that the Tesla Model S is not shack friendly he also said. You WanNa make a big boy tesla that's his quote. He's looking for a big boy test. I don't know if it's GonNa be the cyber truck though because. shock I believe famously endorsed at different. A different electronic truck brand Nikola I think he was, he tweeted about the Badger. So. I don't know what type of what type of big Boy Tesla he's looking for but he is a big he's a big boy. So he would need a big boy vehicle. Yeah. So is him what the Badger he tweet about the Badger I believe. What is his tweet? Nikola Motor Company just released the nine hundred and six horsepower electric truck. You know I just reserved for myself. Zero to sixty two point nine seconds want one reg reservations. So, he has some relationship with Nikola Motors. But maybe the I don't know how it's all going to map out with the spacing in the cyber truck could that would that be big enough for a guy like shack and he's seven feet tall. The video they're actually of him trying to get into his friend sort of sneaks a shot of him trying to get into the passenger seat and he doesn't know what I he's being recorded. He's this is just a regular model s. You can see here it's very difficult to get into it. Oh Yeah. I mean, the head is almost touching the sun roof and feet bare won't go in all men. And in a lot of cases to be fair if he wants to get into a sedan, he has have a custom made. The chair pushback By says, look I'm looking for a big boy tesla. So, like I said, maybe maybe this cyber truck will solve his issues or maybe he'll get one of the badgers. He's apparently also been in touch with Ribian. He was present at Amazon's. Re Mars event in June two, thousand, nineteen where riven CEO RJ skrine showed. Shack in our won t pickup. So shacks on the lookout he's looking for that next. Electric vehicle that'll fit him. And, we'll see if any can deliver it straight out the gate with the stock version or he's going to have to get some modifications on their to fit comfortably any of them but for right now, the Model S. is not for shack. Pinterest ever used pinterest by the way Yup every. So often pinterest is the latest tech company that is making a a sort of shift away from your traditional office spaces in the face of this particular lockdown twenty twenty style. They're going to pay eighty nine point, five million dollars just to cancel a lease. Shellfish. Almost one hundred mil just to cancel a lease for New San Francisco office. Now understand the way this works well, you make a huge make a huge commitment. There may have been improvements as part of the commitment where an office building was going to do all kinds of things for them to be suitable for their massive workforce. Day. Just say forget it man they're saying everybody's working from home. We're doing fine. It's the way it is now. They cited Corona virus as well as the reason why they can't follow through on the lease in San Francisco as we analyze how our workplace will change in a post covid world we're specifically rethinking where future employees could be based. A more distributed workforce will give us the opportunity to hire more people from a wide range of backgrounds and experiences the company. Was Planning to Lisa four hundred ninety. Thousand Square foot office space. Half a million square foot office space in a high rise which was currently under. Construction. Now, the put this in perspective for you will. A recent study found forty two percent of the US labor force now works remotely forty-two percent well. The reason. That's important is because that's actually the majority because there's a lot of people who aren't working at all. In fact twenty, six, percent or thirty three percent of the workforce isn't working at the moment and twenty six percent are the essential workers that are working on their business premises. Let's see. So the majority of the workforce is at home right now. Working digitally that's it. The girls at the Taco Bell with the laptop it's all they guy and their Internet connection. That's how the world is operating at the moment how the United States is operating at the moment forty two percent. So you have these tech giants, companies, Pinterest isn't even as big as some of the other ones. Google apple and facebook. Saying. We're GONNA pay one, hundred million dollars just to get out of this deal because we don't see it making any sense. We don't imagine anybody's going to show up. Half A, million square feet. This. Is I guess for their new HQ? Yeah, it was going to be. Let's see here the company they operate a different site. which I think they're going to keep. Yeah and I mean this must have been new H. Q. Five, hundred, thousand. It would be whole campus win it at half a million square feet. Is this the address? Yeah. Eighty eight blocks blocks home high-rise is where this was going to be. So it would have been I guess a couple of floors of a bunch of floors inside of this high rise in San. Francisco. This I mean, it's just what is going to happen. To commercial real estate retail. Real Estate. All real estate and the future workforce where are they going to be what's going to happen to productivity? How're things when to change is just another piece of substantial evidence that things are not going to look the same. This would have been part of a to do a least like that will one hundred, million dollar lease or one hundred million to cancel it. So it was probably worth even more. You got to be looking at ten years down the road at least. I would say. So this showcases how long standing our changes are going to be in our lives. Because it is locked down because of Covid we're talking about maybe forever type of changes or at least decade-long changes. Including changes to the way that we work obviously, and the way that we shop because in the next story, we have another report twenty, five percent of US malls are expected to shut within the next five years. That's that's one in four miles. You have about a thousand malls in the united. States. And they're already things are already really bad right Five years isn't GonNa do any better for them? Presumably, there's been a lot of talk about what to do with these spaces. We talked about potentially turning them into. A. Residential spaces. We talked about how Amazon was looking into taking up some of that real estate in order to turn it into film center fulfillment centers, warehouse space you it turns out. That's way harder harder than it sounds as you might imagine, and the biggest difficulty year is actually around zoning and the communities in which these malls exist. You see retail when you have retail zoning, you pay a much higher much tax rate than if you have warehouse industrial. And so if Amazon wants to go into a particular community. and. And have a fulfillment center or have another warehouse. The tax rates are going to have a really big impact on wh. The their consideration over whether or not they should go inhabit. a historically retail zoned location. Because that's going to be a ton of square feet and and they're gonNA be taxed based on whatever that amount happens to be. And they could just go across town to the industrial area over there just put the thing there and pay the much lower tax rate and these things take a long time to change. If they wanted to say change zoning, it could be. Take, a lot of time and it could be expensive and the communities might not be all up for it because they're sitting there saying, well, I got this retail tax rate going on here. Yeah I don't want to rezone that thing. I want more retail to come in even if the retails not gonNA come, do they have the foresight to realize that they should fast track some of these alternative operations so that the whole thing doesn't shut down it's a lot of moving pieces, moving parts and different. People involved, they'd have to approve of these types of things. So in the meantime, these malls are just going to fail and they're just GONNA shut down. presumably, and they have been shut down in many cases for an extended period of time depending on where they're located. So we have to wait and see obviously how catastrophic this is going to be at the mall will ever make comeback but. It appears a lot like our previous story with the with the commercial real estate that retail real estate might might be the same thing where we could see decades long hair like massive changes that are permanent. Before people start flocking back the malls if at all. I don't know about you. Will I presume you haven't been to a mall in a very long time? No. No. Not recently any even if you did what it would be hard to make a habit again. It would be hard to adjust some of the things you know how they say it takes thirty days to break a habit or thirty days to make a habit. Is it thirty days or ninety days whatever it happens to be whatever that amount of time is you just adapt here new surroundings and if you're going to build another one, it's GonNa take time again with this type of. Real estate expenditure. Is GonNa be hard for people to hang on for you to rebuild your habit it all over again, and in many cases, there's plenty of evidence in this particular. You have big high-profile tenants just refusing to pay. They're just saying I'm making no money which want me to pay for and they're getting kicked out. And there's no one to replace them an enormous leases. So anyway. Go guess. While he's still can if it's even open in your area but. Here's the. Here's the last one. Will we've covered these kind of stories in the past you know when you find the old McDonald's burger that's perfectly intact no rotting no mold nothing. So there was the famous story in Iceland where there was the camera on the Burger that never rod it and I don't know how old that one was but it was to commemorate the closing of the One McDonald's in Iceland which laughed at after the economic recession. McDonald's. Left and this guy saved one cheeseburger in his closet and put a camera on it. So anyway, every. So often these stories pop up of the abandoned cheeseburger, which is someone finds it under their bed or something, and it hasn't there's no mold on it and it looks similar to when it was purchased. Actually it looks like the packaging in this case on the ten year old McDonald's the packaging has suffered more than the actual French fries. Anyway I didn't realize that one is only ten years old because this grandmother in this video shows off a twenty four year old McDonalds Burger twenty four years old, and you can actually click the clip. If you want semi viral, it looks to have more than semi viral. That's five hundred, thousand likes. So I don't know how many views that is a million she's got boxing closet. You can turn it up a bit. and. It was advertising a Nascar race in nineteen ninety six. Now she she kept the bag that came in. So people didn't dispute the age of it. Fries I in the paper. So. So it was the deliberate. Accident No, no, she saved a don't ask me why she but she's touching. The bread has never mold the bread is. The Bradley. A bit dry but it looks like McDonald's Patty Yeah it's incredible now. Does it smell though? Do you ever wonder about? Her Expression I. 'cause usually what you're smelling is the decomposition, right? Yeah. Usually what you're smelling is the mold, will you have not afraid of moulder anything? Well, there isn't any. Well, that's the thing. It's like, wow, like it's so Preserved. A foster Off. Its fossilized sort of. Twenty four years old anyway this clip. Do every. So often when this stuff emerges of the pristine, McDonald's hamburger up and up here in a pops up here and there, and it becomes it seems to be a thing that gets passed around. There actually has at one time been. A response from a McDonald's representative and I don't which time this this was but. An Christianson director of field brand reputation for McDonald's once said in the right environment are burgers like most other foods could decompose. But in order to decompose you need certain conditions specifically moisture. So her suggestion is that that that was well preserved because there was no moisture in their. Shoe Ball and I know you're laughing and saying it's still should have decomposed but. It's kind of funny says in the right circumstances, it could decompose but usually, no, it lasts about a thousand years. The thing is how long does that really last? If it made it twenty four years looking like that a probably can do one hundred years based on the way. It looks right now, which is kind of incredible. It's an incredible thing to think about no actually it's a regular hamburger keys and she got no toppings which may have helped the president preservation. And I just noticed that right now. But anyway, she got the fries in there, the rapper and the original bag. It's kind of amazing I. Don't know how does it make you feel well does it Are you worried about this at all does this Is. This a kind of a fun thing or does this concern you about eating the hamburger? It doesn't concern me personally, I I'm a big fan of McDonald's I do like it. Right. Enjoy it from time to time. Okay. Did you just edit yourself right there? Had to like change the phrasing a little bit. I mean, this is a cool experiment to see that kind of stuff. That's all it is. So he doesn't doesn't. Doesn't concern you. There's no there's no bacteria nothing that that twenty four years the thing looks better than you don't eat it enough to actually you know be affected by it if Ri-, aided every door maybe it's actually It's It's What's the word when you never die? Immortal immortality becomes your mortality immortal. That's right. The more a visa you eat the longer your life gets does it affect you? Know not not really I. Think it's. I it is I feel the reason it goes viral every. So often though is because people have fear or people have an inkling that. That There's something about this particular food which is unnatural at say yeah, and that everyone knows if you just pulled a gun off like real bread, you slice it and you put ground beef on it and you left it in your closet that would not be fun. Yeah, I. Think most people have a feeling are thinking that that will be the case and then when that doesn't happen, they share the clip because they're like, wow, what does McDonalds doing and I don't think it's really all that Surprising that you would have preservatives or whatever else because they gotta ship this stuff all over the place and and I, think it's exclusive to McDonalds either I think there's probably plenty of food. You might be surprised how well they I mean I remember hearing about this when I was a kid and you would say, Hey, this thing's expired can I still have it and then somebody would say has all that sugar in it which preserves it. I don't know like jam or something. and. We'll have a best before but people would say now you can still eat it something like this. And so is it the sugar because I know that sweet bun they got to Oh. Yeah. So I'm curious mostly I look at it because I'm curious but it does anytime something gets passed round over and over again there's usually some sort of. human connection where you have a number of people who are skeptical or curious in the same way which is why the thing goes viral. So for health reasons like I guess everything in Moderation Hey, man I'm with you on that. Yeah I'm with you on that you don't want to be having these McDonald's hamburgers every day you Treat. All right.
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