20 Episode results for "President Yeltsin"

THE BORIS & BILL SHOW

What Really Happened?

1:03:06 hr | 2 years ago

THE BORIS & BILL SHOW

"Welcome to a new episode of what really happened produced by Dwayne the rock Johnson. Danny Garcia, Brian Goertz and cadence thirteen now our show is only as good as our listeners. Y'all fact check me provide new insight give your opinions and to become a contributor simply go to Jenks pod dot com slash contributors or call four one three four seven one two nine seven five. Thank you for being a listener. And a voice for the podcast. You probably haven't seen a guest house like this. It's pretty sweet it's about sixty thousand square feet. There's a hundred and twenty rooms in eighteen fulltime employees, making sure everything looks perfect fourteen guestrooms each with a full bathroom three dining rooms to conference rooms several kitchens of beauty salon exercise room. You get it. It's called literally the president's guest house. That's the address also known as the Blair House. The pad is just across the street from the White House since World War Two. This is where guests of the presidents of the United States, stay kings and queens, prime minister's emperors, and where the president elect generally hangs in the days leading up to the move just across the street Queen Elizabeth the second General Charles de Gaulle and President Nelson Mandela have all spent time at what has become known as the world's most exclusive hotel. It's. Number twenty six nineteen ninety four boys to men is arguably the most popular group in America, The Shawshank Redemption has just been released and is getting solid buzz at the Blair House. Russian President Boris Yeltsin is President Bill Clinton's guest. Yeltsin is six to a bit overweight with slicked back silver hair. He has an infectious grin to his fingers on his left hand or missing when he was a kid he and his friends were playing with grenades as stolen from an army store and they exploded on this late September evening. It's about sixty degrees with clear skies. Yeltsin is having a blast or so it seems he's been drinking booze for quite a while. And is now running from room to room in his underwear at one point he stumbles down a staircase. Eventually Yeltsin is brought back up to his room by his security team and goes to sleep. That's how the story ended in the history books, but in a book. Doc, titled the Clinton tapes the night for Yeltsin wasn't over much later in the night. Really the next morning sometime before the sun comes up the secret service, discovers Yeltsin alone outside of the president's guest house. Yeltsin is drunk wearing only underwear and yelling for a taxi. Why a taxi well despite the numerous chefs on call Yeltsin wants pizza and is hoping for a cab to take him somewhere to get a slice. When asked later about what the secret service and staff did Clinton shrugged. Well, he got his pizza President Boris Yeltsin and President Bill Clinton ran their respective countries. For most of the nineteen ninety s both had big personalities. Big ambitions rough childhoods growing up in small towns and fatal flaws both came to power in the early nineties both served second terms and both were riddled by scandal leaving office at the turn of the twenty first century this. Period of time was an opportunity to see America and Russia becomes sincere friends true allies. Yeltsin was the first democratically elected leader in Russian history and Clinton wasn't just a Russian history buff, but was entrenched with what he could do to help the struggling country only a few years into their friendship seeing how well they got along laughing and hugging in front of cameras. The press began calling them the Boris and Bill show a few months ago, the Clinton library released records of the two talking over the course of their time in leadership. It's mesmerizing to read the New Yorker in a September. Twenty eighteen article noted the transcripts of phone calls and meetings with an occasional memo thrown in adds up to more than five hundred page record of friendship. Yes. There are lots of laughs in this story. But despite all of the similarities and all of the goodwill. It seems to have all fallen. Part at in the backdrop was a man not so happy with what was going on a man who came to look at Boris Yeltsin as a national embarrassment a stooge to President Clinton, and the Americans that man was flawed. Amir putin. What really happened Boris Yeltsin wasn't necessarily born with a drink in his hand. But he came pretty damn close. In fact, if it weren't for alcohol, there's a good chance he wouldn't have been named Boris in the first place. Yeltsin was born in a small Russian village in nineteen thirty one the priest who was in the process of baptizing Boris had been drinking drinking so much. In fact, that he put Boris in the tub got caught up in an argument with somebody and forgot Yeltsin was underwater, his mother terrified saved her son, the priest realizing the close call apparently said, well, if he can survive such an ordeal. It means he's a good tough lad, and I name him Boris. Boris is a Russian named that means fighter or underdog, and Yeltsin certainly fought for most of his life. The few people in Russia who remain loyalty. Yeltsin who died at seventy six years old in two thousand seven of congestive heart failure fight for his legacy to this day. The Boris Yeltsin museum was erected in November twenty fifteen it attempts to honor the late president, but has been treated with disdain by much of the Russian public and most certainly Vladimir Putin, the independent Levada center found in two thousand sixteen that only fourteen percent of Russians had positive feelings about Yeltsin, it seems that Boris is losing the fight for history's respect. But why on October nineteenth nineteen Ninety-one? Yeltsin was the president of the Russian Republic different than the president of the Soviet government Mikhail Gorbachev it's worth going online and watching Yeltsin during an attempted coup as he stood on a tank declaring that the will of the people would win. Win with incredible force. He declared that the Russian people must defeat the hardline communists, and he would defend that right by any means possible. It was a massive risk one. That could have resulted in prison or execution have forgotten that this happened. This is an NBC news special report crisis in Moscow now heroes Bryant Gumbel. This has been extrordinary day in the Soviet Union where Mikhail Gorbachev has been ousted from power. And what appears to have been a bloodless coup hardliners have seized power and declared a state of emergency Boris Yeltsin, the president of the Republic of Russia's at the center of what resistance there is. He has called on his people to resist the emergency committee, and he's urged an immediate general strike is also urged Soviet soldiers to abandon their posts. The end of communism was an extraordinary moment for Russia. The people electing their own president was monumental. As legendary anchor Peter Jennings pointed out, nobody believed it would be easy for Yeltsin. We begin tonight with a very clear results of the first free election ever to be held in the Soviet Union. Not only his Boorda's Yeltsin been elected president of the Russian Republic, but he has buried his communist opponents now comes the real test after months and months of tapping into popular unrest about the system can Boorda's. Yeltsin governed added ABC's reporter on the ground the day after Boris Yeltsin won a convincing victory. There was no celebration. Only a news conference by his supporters part of the reason everyone knows what Yeltsin is now up again. The public may love him, but the entrenched communist bureaucracy gives him no applause in villages and towns throughout Russia. It is the local communist party leaders who hold the local government physicians. Yeltsin plans to change that it was during Yeltsin's speech on that tank. When he said that people of Russia a recovering masters of their destiny masters of their destiny where did I heard this before? Well, maybe Yeltsin wrote this himself, but there's a chance he was inspired by Napoleon who used the same line. Or maybe Winston Churchill who I learned from season. One made the famous masters of our fate speech when addressing the United States Congress in nineteen forty one. Some argue that while there were certainly risks Yeltsin's belief in democracy also helped him come to power that it was politically advantageous. But it's hard to not watch these videos and see his sincere and profound belief. And love for democracy. Perhaps you also subscribe to Churchill's line that democracy was the worst form of government except for all the others, and it wasn't just Yeltsin's belief in democracy Clinton and his team were convinced. They were dealing with the first non imperialistic Russian leader almost four months after Yeltsin stood on that tank the Soviet Union on December twenty four th nineteen Ninety-one gave up its seat in the United Nations. It was now the former Soviet Union and fifteen countries would replace it. Russia became by far the biggest country on earth twice the size of the United States and more importantly, the owner of over twenty thousand nuclear weapons. So we have some research here that I wasn't able to us, and I don't mean to knock the guy. But as it turns out, the former Russian President Boris Yeltsin didn't have the greatest teeth, according to a September thirtieth twenty fifteen Wall Street Journal article titled a man who's looked power in the teeth, clever, title, dentist, Mark been hurry. Worked on Yeltsin's teeth and many other high ranking officials he said Yeltsin had the worst teeth. He's encountered quote, I did a full mouth of reconstruction. One of the most important things we can do for our health every day is brush our teeth yet. Most of us don't do it. Properly. Quip is a an I really mean this a better electric toothbrush created by dentists and designers, they have sensitive sonic vibrations gentle enough on your sensitive gums. Why do they do this because people tend to especially me brush, too hard, and some electric toothbrushes are too abrasive. They also have this built in two minute timer, which pulses every thirty seconds to remind you when to switch sides, helping guide a full and even clean, it's brilliant. Why do they do this up to ninety percent of us? Well, don't brush teeth for a full two minutes or don't clean evenly. That's why I love quip. It's easy. It's simple. I mean, it's just nice to have one thing in life. They don't have to think too hard about. And that's why they're also backed by twenty thousand dental professionals quip starts at just twenty five dollars. And if you go to get quip dot com slash W R H right now, you get your first refill pack for free with a quip electric toothbrush. That's your first refill pack three at G E T chew. I p dot com slash W R H what the world would pay attention to was how Russia would ambitiously attempt to change on two separate fronts. Becoming a market economy and going from communism to democracy. One is already a massive leap. Russia was going to do. Both. I spoke with Dr Adele Linden Meyer dean of the college of liberal arts and sciences at Villanova university and professor of history and specialist in Russian history. She pointed out the positives of Yeltsin's reform. I had been his the union many many times before going back to the late nineteen sixties to press was three. In fact, was quite traumatic for Russia's because the press began to write about the real crime rate. For example, information had been so controlled the people had such limited access to information about their own society problems like domestic violence or. Epidemic disease conditions in prisons. It was one revelation after another and the access to information was exhilarating but also profoundly shocking during this time of incredible reform. I can't help but think of the Russian saying, which I didn't know it was a Russian saying until this project you have to learn to walk before you can run. There's no getting around the economic upheaval the Russians faced despite Americans and other countries pouring billions of dollars into their economy. If felt like if the Russian economy was doing any walking, it was going backwards, President Clinton's longtime adviser James Carville is known to say when it comes to winning elections and becoming a popular president. It's the economy stupid, and Yeltsin discovered this the hard way, no matter the progress made in democratic values. No matter the small victories. He had against communism. It was imposs-. To ignore the dire state of the Russian economy. Meanwhile, Yeltsin was also trying to rid its country of communism, but the Russian president faced a parliament that was made up of two thirds communists and ultra-nationalists President Yeltsin solutions to his country's problems is where many think he felt terribly short Bill Clinton's longtime adviser and deputy secretary of State Strobe Talbott said in his book the Russian hand a memoir of presidential diplomacy. Boris Yeltsin knew what he hated about the Soviet Union far better than what he wanted to put in its place. If there was an incapacitating if not fatal flaw in Russian reform at its birth. It was the absence of a collaborative relationship between Yeltsin's government and the parliament said Dr Adele Linden Meyer, I visited Russia in ninety one ninety three ninety four cops were empty. Rationing with introduced in cities like Leningrad and Moscow people talked explicitly about fears of civil war people fading. Disappeared overnight. So it was economic catastrophe. It seems to me that Boris Yeltsin is noticeably absent when America talks about Russia, which recently talk about quite a bit. There are hardly any English biographies on him no documentary specials, much less films. The closest movie I could find was a two thousand three scripted comedy, titled spinning Boris about a group of Americans featuring actors, Jeff Goldblum and Lee of Schreiber who were hired as political consultants for Yeltsin while he fights for reelection. It seems the United States has always had a hard time understanding the former president you can start with a sixty minutes piece by reporter Lesley Stahl from June fourteenth, nineteen Ninety-two and we were invited to the dodger. We thought or shells and wanted to talk to us about what he hopes to accomplish on his trip to the United States what he hopes to accomplish here in Russia. But then he said, no he wanted to have a quiet relaxing day with his family to say stall. And the sixty minutes team had a tough time. Understanding the presence. Would be an understatement. The report is incredible to watch. The entire interview is conducted on a tennis court at times, it feels like a comedy something out of SNL sketch. Yeltsin sports in Dita shirt in a Nike headband. He grunts her barks throughout the games. And the interview at one point he places grandson in tennis who feeling tired goes for some water. Yeltsin won't allow it water is a sign of weakness. He says just imagine this the leader of Russia. The first democratically elected president in his first interview with an American media outlet isn't an office or conference room. There's no Biro shots of him in Leslie Stahl walking down a busy hallway. Instead, Saul points out that Yeltsin is playing three sports at once. Soccer. To volley ball. Tennis soccer and volleyball all in forty five minutes on this one tennis court. She notes how impressive this is and similar to then President Bush's ability to take on six different sports in one weekend. Perhaps some smart political maneuvering on Yeltsin's part. It is also at this point where I realized maybe I'm wrong. Maybe tennis is a smart move after all throughout his career. Yeltsin was charged with being unfit by the end of his tenure there were numerous reports at various points that he had died. This was the first moment, I realized one should not underestimate the Russian president. But he is also most certainly a Radic this is on full display. Yeltsin does in this unexpected soundbite talk about the early days with his wife when we graduated and got married, my wife, and I. To chairs we didn't even have a table. So we had to do everything on the floor. Floor. Really? Would you? We had to make love on the floor. That's why we got girls. I didn't understand that. But sided to move on suddenly he takes issue with a existent. Video. CBS completely aronie Asli of working in league with his arch-rival. Gorbachev in doctoring videotape that made him look inebriated during his one thousand nine hundred nine trip to Washington. The charge came out of the blue. We don't know what to talk. Get him. But what happened with CBS? What? Feasible up a few on Gorbachev state from the network about a visit to be Wes I made and they use different ways to create a special effect. We. And used it before our elections PBS never had the tape so upset about we'd never even heard about it and sixty minutes, executive producer. Don Hewitt told Yeltsin saw, thanks. No, no. I don't always forgiven. He went back to his game. Shortly. After the issue is cleared up the interview ends abruptly when stall persists on asking about healthcare conditions in Russia walked off leaving me with pages of questions. I never got to ask President Yeltsin's first formal interview with the American media is over he walks off the tennis court, although before doing so he shakes hands with everyone on the CBS crew, including the sound person and cameraman only a few weeks later, then governor Bill Clinton and President Boris Yeltsin met for the first time the location, the president's guest house. The Blair House Clinton was running for president against George H W Bush. Yeltsin was in town for a big speech. He gave to congress that went over incredibly. Well, the New York Times reported on the front page that quote, lawmakers said mister Yeltsin appeared to have won some converts with his stirring speech and dramatic personal confrontation of lawmaker. Who had been opposing passage of the aid program while I watched the speech Yeltsin is clearly prepared and forceful. We have met behind media Medica in Russia that each other through gunsights ready. It anytime despite what was only well known American fill me day after it got today. We'll be day of fees. They miss a FIA and more for the happiness about children who else. Get into leave communism earthquakes bread avenue as social strife any Muslim you and then peddling utility with instead fearing humanity has collects it has collected never to rise. Again. I'm here to issue. Ready dries again in our land. And of course, he has a few jokes. We've been over. These don't count the blood against the time that I had been speaking. The times would go on to say he stood before the houses. Enormous American flag with his broad shoulders and swept back hair towering over the rostrum. His broad face seizing frequently into his easy grin Bush and his camp. Didn't want Clinton to me with Yeltsin on this trip, it makes Clinton look presidential. In fact, Yeltsin wasn't exactly entrenched with the idea of meeting Clinton either Yeltsin and his team believed Bush should win. And if Bush did lose the ninety two election, it'd be to Ross Perot. Nonetheless Clinton was able to get his meeting with Yeltsin Clinton started the meeting by telling the Russian president. He was impressed by his speech both on the tank a year prior and to the congress the day before hand Clinton said Yeltsin's tone in style with lead to the United States, financially assisting Russia, even more, but Yeltsin didn't like how Clinton phrased this. Yeltsin didn't like this. Word assist. He never would. We're not looking for handouts. He retorted Russia is a great power. Yes. They needed help. But they preferred the hell to be offered not something they requested. Ideally, this help wouldn't be talked about too much. They were a proud people to make it seem like Yeltsin was coming to America. Asking for money wasn't the goal and hurt him politically back at home Clinton, always looking for common ground pivoted. He remarked on the resistance. Yeltsin showed Clinton said he too had been considered down and out many times in his political life. Yeltsin liked this remark? It was certainly true. As only time would tell both men had this unspoken, similarity to survive they had to fight off enemies at home before leaving Yeltsin commented on Clinton's youth, perhaps an indication that he didn't think. Clinton would win this election. But maybe one down the road Clinton was impressed with Yeltsin. It also seem that despite the headlines that ran in some papers about Yeltsin's drinking habits like the one headline. I read that declared him boozy Boris it didn't seem like Yeltsin had been drinking or if so it wasn't noticeable. But that wouldn't last. So a little behind the scenes on our podcast here. I split the editing duties with the great and quite tall. Bill Schultz, one of the greats his nice kids to when I added some of the episodes. I prefer to do. So not at this gorgeous studio here. Cadence thirteen in midtown. 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It wasn't long into Bill Clinton's presidency that he knew Yeltsin's drinking would become a serious problem. In fact, it couldn't have been longer than just two days after Clinton took office. Yeltsin had called the American president to congratulate him and ask for assistance. Yeltsin needed financial aid to help the crippling Russian economy Clinton could tell he was drunk president. Yeltsin was slurring his words getting names mixed up and interrupted quite a bit Yeltsin's drinking was alarming to most certainly Clinton's aids. But Clinton seemed less concerned if anything it perhaps came as familiar territory to Clinton, maybe it reminded him of his stepfather a raging and violent alcoholic years later after another encounter with a drunk. Yeltsin Clinton said I've seen a lot of this problem in my time at least Yeltsin's not a mean drunk Clinton and his team like to think of yellow. Tsin as Russia's equivalent to president Franklin Delano Roosevelt before meeting Yeltsin as president for the first time Clinton said privately they are in a depression, and Yeltsin has got to be there FDR, but he can't do that. Without our help. I spoke with Evelyn forcus. Former deputy assistant secretary of defense for Russia. Ukraine and Eurasia from the US perspective, President Clinton really wanted to establish a personal relationship with President Putin. He wanted to make him an ascent friend, although you know, obviously their heads of state. So he wanted to make him understand that President Clinton himself in the United States as a state meant. Well, he he wanted very much to establish some kind of trust. And so that's what he spent time with Yeltsin invited him to the United States and really tried to demonstrate. That there was no hidden agenda because I think we were very well aware that there were you know, elements within the Russian government, certainly the security services who are still very suspicious of American motive for a period of time, albeit brief it looks like Yeltsin was doing quite well, in fact, Clinton joked at his first White House correspondents dinner that he envied the Russian president. And I I took this job I dream that one hundred days. Pick up the newspaper. I'd read about a populace president who broken the gridlock and gotten popular approval for dramatic economic program enjoyed the support of his people. And and I did I resent the hell out of Boris Yeltsin. It was also known that the Russians liked or at least respected FDR Roosevelt had been an ally during World War Two and was the last American president before the beginning of the Cold, War, Clinton, and Yeltsin's friendship seem to grow through the years. And there's a time in nineteen ninety-five that at least at first seems to best reveal this relationship. Yeltsin was scheduled to meet with Clinton in America because of Russia's affinity for FDR Clinton and his team thought it'd be smart to host the president of Russia at Roosevelt's former state in Hyde Park, a beautiful home that overlooks the Hudson river the meetings were held here on October twenty third nineteen ninety-five the meetings went well Clinton's two biggest goals were accomplished in afterwards. The two men were set to hold a press conference. Now, I've watched my fair share of. Press conferences when covering the two thousand twelve presidential election or my year following the Chiba Lotte Marines, and you know, things may get interesting. When a press conference starts with the person at the Mike in this case, the president saying we don't have prepared statements without prepared statements, President Bill Clinton and President Boris Yeltsin began what would be a press conference for the ages. They stood next to each other on the front porch of FDR's, former home in front of a single podium and microphone reporters stood down on the street level and both men had interpreters off to the sides. No more than four minutes into this. As if Yeltsin had never taken part in a press conference, the Russian president purposely albeit slightly bumps into Clinton. Yeltsin is attempting to get Clinton's attention and attempting to do so without anyone noticing. He then moves his hands in a way to suggest a Clinton that. When the time comes Yeltsin will take the podium. Clinton isn't quite sure what Yeltsin is suggesting so then Yeltsin points at himself, and then Clinton and just sticky lates that they will switch eventually is that right? Clinton grins. And although it hasn't picked up on the microphone whisper something along the lines of. Yes. And then you and when Yeltsin was up he put on a show. Be agree. Got to shows emits want to say first of all that when I came here to the United States for this. Visit at the invitation of the president of the United States Bill Clinton. I did not at that time have the degree of optimism with which I now am departing Clinton has his chin up and grins. He looks at Yeltsin proudly as if to say, yeah, look at what we can accomplish maybe Clinton is also thinking through the important points. He had just made about their meeting. They discussed Bosnia they discussed ratification for the start treaty. They agreed on cooperating on nuclear security. They decided to work together on a sweeping test-ban treaty. Perhaps Clinton is thinking. Yeah. Wow. On our eighth visit together, we are really moving things along or maybe maybe Clinton's grin is hiding worry. The Yeltsin may say something else coming from my state, bent. Yesterday in the United Nations. And if you look at the press reports one good see that what you were writing was that today's meeting with President Bill Clinton was going to be a disaster. Clinton reveals a huge smile. Tilts his head back and laughs opposed to talking about the specifics of what they are agreeing upon Yeltsin is opted to point out that the haters in the press were wrong. Yeltsin starts pointing to his head challenging the brains of the press. Well, now for the first time, I can tell you that you're a disaster. Now Clinton is cracking up. In fact, cracking up is an understatement. It really can only be described as a laughing fit. He leans down to grab his knees. Because he's chuckling so hard Yeltsin has a shit eating grin on his face. Although he seventy five years old Yeltsin looks like a five year old getting away with telling the teacher off. And I mean that in the nicest way possible it's grin for the agents. Clinton puts his arm around Yeltsin and yells to the press you get the right attribution there. Clinton wants to make sure there aren't any reports that he agrees. The press is disaster. He continues cracking up. Yeltsin can no longer hold it in himself. And has also chuckling he seems quite proud to be making such an impression on his buddy Bill as it turns out, it was likely Clinton who planted the idea that it was Yeltsin and him versus the press earlier in the day. He had opened their conversation by telling Yeltsin that they needed to prove the pundits wrong. The pundits want to write about a big blow up lutts, disappoint them Clinton. Now puts his hand over his face wiping away. Tears. He puts his arm around Boris's shoulder once again, and now Boris puts his arm around bills. This press conference has turned into a buddy buddy routine when you watch this. It's impossible not to smile. These two presidents seem to sincerely get along Yeltsin then suddenly transforms his face gets almost anger. Or at the very least serious. He starts wagging his index finger up and down all of a sudden, he wants everyone to know. He's no longer kidding gazavat. This proves done. Done ship. Your. Fish gone that our partnership, nausea, your fellow Shiga ninety nine din gloved is new. On a studied our partners is not calculated for one year or for five years, but for years and years to come tens of years for a century Clinton, realizing the sudden change in tone goes from smiling and laughing to a more somber face. He doesn't say it audibly, but you can see a mouth that's true when Yeltsin talks about this important relationship. Well Clinton was talking about the details of the agreements they made Yeltsin is now presenting the bigger picture. This was a relationship that could not be broken Yeltsin than brings up another important word friendship fem it through. Yeah. That we're friends emit. Kosovo miss the British side, miss Lord. Qaddus farrowing Lamia away with prostate, and that it's only together together we're going to be trying to solve not only are joint bilateral issues, but issues affecting the whole world. I kept thinking Yeltsin seemed drunk, but maybe this was I don't know my own misunderstanding. Maybe there was something else going on like that sixty minutes tennis interview. But when diving back into a few books IRAs reminded that Yeltsin most certainly had a few drinks during lunch. Yeltsin had downed all things several glasses of Russian river. California wine Clinton would later regret that they didn't do a better job of hiding the booze from Yeltsin. But Clinton would also later say we can't ever forget the Yeltsin drunk is better than most of the alternatives sober as I continued to watch the press conference now about eight minutes into it. I realized something important. That without Clinton standing there. There is absolutely no chance. Yeltsin wouldn't seem like a completely bizarre rambling man who had way too, many drinks without Clinton there. This would be catastrophic press conference. In fact, I realized there's a good chance Clinton smile. His in as sincere as I had originally thought, maybe the smiling, and laughing is meant to tell the world that Yeltsin is half kidding around. Whatever your political leanings. It's pretty solid acting Clinton is covering for his drunken buddy or really fellow president who needs to be taken seriously. It's almost like when you're out with your drunk friend trying to get into a bar. Oh him. No. He's fine. I'm with him. We're good. He's just, you know, acting unique tonight as the press conference goes on a lot happens at one point Clinton nearly elbows Yeltsin to suggest it's time for them to wrap. Up, but it doesn't work. When Clinton says it's time for questions. Yeltsin keeps going and Yeltsin doesn't stop to leave room for the translator to tell Clinton. What he saying leaving Clinton looking around for help, albeit subtly at one point the translator even tries to interject, but Yeltsin doesn't notice after Yeltsin's final point, or at least seems like his final point. He begins clapping for himself and Clinton, but as always don't underestimate Yeltsin when pressed on military action, he says they've agreed at large on an approach and the details will be sorted out by their military leaders, a smart non-answer that also isn't lying as if impressed by his politics Clinton nods and quickly looks for the next question. It's like he's thinking not bad Boerse. Let's get this thing over with before something goes wrong as the last question is being asked Clinton shifts to the front of the podium subtly moving Yeltsin over. Clinton won't let Yeltsin take that Mike again after his answer Clinton, then grabs Yeltsin's hand. And literally pulls him off the stage, he pretends, it's just an extended handshake. The Clinton is actually holding Yeltsin's hand all the way down the stairs until they're far away from that podium. I'm President Boris Yeltsin's trip to Russia. He had a heart attack, and then another heart attack not too long after he was hospitalized and eventually recovered with the help of Clinton Yeltsin was able to avoid too many people accusing him of being drunk, but that would change all you have to do is go on YouTube to see montages of Yeltsin out in public clearly drunk. He's dancing chugging, beer and slurring his words. It wasn't Barrasso for the Russian people. His drinking is something that inevitably comes up when anyone talks about the former president if they do it all I was surprised to learn time in time. Again throughout this process. The Yeltsin seems to have been largely forgotten said, Dr Adele Linden Meyer. I I'm just speculating here. But I haven't heard my Russian friends mention him for years. He really came to be associated with. A very humiliating period of Russian history. As history is constantly rewritten or reexamined and looked at more precisely through the lens of those whose voices have been undermined. I think it's valuable to consider the mental health of our leaders, and for Yeltsin, there seems to have been a clear mood disorder diagnosing. Someone retroactively is near impossible. But it doesn't take much looking around to learn of Yeltsin struggles it also explains so much about the man in his autobiography midnight diaries. Awesome title. Yeltsin seems to me surprisingly candid he speaks of his quote, debilitating bouts of depression and frequent bouts of insomnia from early on. He says I concluded that alcohol was the only means to quickly get rid of stress. I remember that the weight would lift after a few shock losses, and in that sense of lightness. I felt as if I could conduct. The orchestra Yeltsin wrote that after one mishap a group of my aides wrote me a letter saying that my behavior and impromptu remarks were harming me and all our mutual work. None of them were able to help me. There are reports that Yeltsin attempted suicide at least twice German American author. Martin Yvonne wrote about one such time saying Yeltsin was being driven by car to see a friend. He said that he'd been driven to within a few hundred yards of his friends house had dismissed the driver and decided to walk the rest of the way. But as he was about to cross a bridge. Another car pulled up, according to Yeltsin's recounting of the story. He then suddenly found himself in the river. Yvonne continues the Moscow rumor mill quickly buzzed with various explanations of the bridge incident ranging from attempted assassination to Yeltsin being drunk and falling in in included, the speculation that in. A fit of depression. Yeltsin tried to end his life by drowning but misjudged the height of the bridge and his own ultimate will to live like other incidents in Yeltsin's life. This event is obscured by Yeltsin's vague recollections others have also spoken about Yeltsin suicide attempts. This includes some people who've had suspicious intentions, including a former security guard who had a falling out with Yeltsin to more credible. Sources regardless it's hard for me to imagine this. You are the leader of a nation. Not just any nation, but the largest nation in the world. You are changing the country at its very core. It's very foundation you're trying to change a society. That has never enjoyed a free press that has been unable to elect its own leaders a nation whose leaders have at time starved and killed its own people. You have said you will change all of this. You have that sort of weight on your shoulders, and you are chronically depressed you need that much alcohol while I'm sure we'll get some flack for this which may be fair. It's hard for me, not to see Yeltsin's mood disorder and drinking habits in the same light. As former prime minister Winston Churchill their outcomes were drastically different and their visions for the world and ability to change the world where drastically different with that said both were run out of political life only to return as their nation's leader and both put their life on the line in order to defend their nation's freedom. Finally, both made no secret that they needed alcohol. To alleviate their own internal struggles, the drinking doesn't excuse Yeltsin's behavior. I just think it's worth noting. It's more valuable to think about this. Then laugh at it. When Strobe Talbott Clinton's deputy secretary of state asked his boss if Clinton ever thought of bringing up Yeltsin's drinking to Yeltsin himself Clinton said he didn't think it was his place to do. So it was Yeltsin's alcoholism and the state of the economy that would lead to his downfall domestically. And it was the war in Bosnia. That would forever change his friendship with Clinton. Both of these factors would play a part in who Russia picked as their next president. Here's a nice little quote capitalism is the outstanding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest. Good of everyone. What would sir? John Maynard keen say about this. What would he say about today's world? His head would have probably I dunno exploded. Especially when it comes to something I've fallen for coming from someone who generally speaking is petrified of money will not petrified money, but petrified of how money works. I introduced you to Robin Hood, Robin Hood is an investing app that lets you buy and sell stocks ETF s options and cryptos all commission free. They strive to make financial services work for everyone. Not just the wealthy. It's a non intimidating way for stock market newcomers like myself to invest for the first time with true confidence. It's simple and intuitive clear design with data presented in an easy to digest way. There's also no commission fees. Other brokerages charge up to. Ten dollars for every trade. But robinhood doesn't charge commission fees trade stocks and keep all of your profits. The design is easy to use easy to understand charts and market data place a trade and just four taps on your smartphone. The Robin Hood web platform also lets you view stock collections and analyst ratings of buy hold sell for every stock Robin Hood is giving listeners a free stock like apple Ford or sprint to help. Build your portfolio. Sign up at happened, Robin, Hood dot com. That's happened dot robinhood dot com. Five years after that press conference in Hyde Park Clinton was scheduled to go to Moscow and meet with Yeltsin, it would be one of the final times, the you would see each other at this point both are in their second and final terms in office and both are facing scandals they had made mistakes in their respective countries. And they were and this is incredible to think facing impeachment at the same time. They're enemies were hoping to end their political careers Republicans in congress wanted Clinton impeached for lying to the American people well communists in Russia had been intent on impeaching Yeltsin on charges of mishandling, the war in Chechnya and for leading the way to the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Yeltsin was also facing the collapse of the Russian economy this nearly resulted and this is an exaggeration in a coup d'etat said Dr Linden Meyer that country just. Thank into economic catastrophe, and there were genuine fears of civil war Clinton's longtime aide on all things. Russia Strobe Talbott who I gotta say just has an awesome named Strobe Talbott Seddon his book that more than ever and for obvious reasons Clinton identified with Yeltsin stubbornness resilience and defiance in the face of adversity and tagging them, he admired Yeltsin because as Clinton put it. He had the ability to stand up to the bastards who are trying to bring him down Clinton continued. The thing about Yeltsin. I really like is that he's not a Russian bureaucrat. He's an Irish poet. He sees politics is a novel. He's writing or a symphony. He's composing that's one of the things that draws me to him. Well, Clinton said this tell but says he heard an echo of the advice that Clinton must have been giving himself about how to handle the mess he'd made of his own public and private life. Life. I've got to get up everyday go to work just keep working away doing the people's business. And maybe the let me stay in office leading up to this press conference in Moscow set for September second two thousand and eight Clinton remained as determined as ever to make the relationship with Russia work to show the Russians that America was with them. Yeltsin to was well aware of the importance their relationship played Clinton remarked in private you can't underestimate the impact on our own economy and national security and on the global economy if Russia goes south, but both presidents were in very different places politically over key issues, including the role of NATO and the war in Kosovo, the tone at this press conference in Moscow is remarkably different from the one at FDR's is see Clinton and Yeltsin both stood at Hyde Park, in fact, noting. They both were the same height. Six two. Both were now sitting flinton oftentimes places hands over his cheeks, and Yeltsin doesn't bother taking off the translation headphones when he speaks there clearly tired. They shared a podium at Hyde Park. They now speak into separate microphones. They put their arms around each other's shoulders at Hyde Park and shook hands multiple times. They now literally turn their backs on one another the moment the press conferences over before the two men exit. However, when it's time to take questions from reporters Clinton appears to briefly grin, perhaps this is my own over analyzing of the situation, but maybe Clinton was having flashbacks. So that press conference in Hyde Park, a memory of the times the question and answer sessions were somewhat of a delight. But this would not be that one of the first questions. In fact, is about that once promising relationship or Boris and Bill even friends anymore is the show over our. We Russia and the US partners right now or steel commanders and today being farewell Boris Yeltsin and Bill Clinton are they still friends. Thank you. Fennel Smith start with your last question. Yes, we stay France and the atmosphere since the beginning of talks, he'll the end was friendly one. You ask if we're still friends the answer to that is. Yes, you ask. If we are if Russia and the United States have a partnership, I think plane answer to that is yes would even though we don't always agree on every issue soon. After a reporter asked about the president's affair with White House, intern Monica Lewinsky, what has the reaction censure admission of a relationship with MS Lewinsky, giving you any cause for concern that you may not be as effective as you should be in leading the country. And then again, Mr President. Another Lewinsky question, Meanwhile, Yeltsin fighting for his political life and still having to prove he is no puppet of the west insists NATO's looming presence is a mistake. We are against may toll expanding eastwards bonday. This will be a historic error Clinton's understanding of Russian history. Don't forget he's a Russian history. Buff remains apparent country that rebuffed Polian and Hitler can surely adjust to the realities of the global marketplace, my conviction, it'll get better as based on my reading of your history. But one word Clinton appears to have forgotten which always takes off Yeltsin is that word he used years ago when the two first met at the Blair House assistance America, and the international community are I'm convinced ready to offer further assistance, if Russia stays with the path of reform the use of this word is an example of a larger criticism many have of how the Clinton White House acted towards Russia that they weren't sensitive enough to the fact that Russia was dealing with the reality that they were quite publicly playing second fiddle about a year later Clinton, and Yeltsin attended an international meeting with many heads of state while giving a speech. Entin practically stops down from addressing the group and looks directly Yeltsin President Yeltsin one of the most thrilling experiences of my life as a citizen of the world before I became president was when you stood up on that time can Moscow when they tried to take the freedom of the Russian people away. And you're standing there on that tank said to those people you can do this. But you'll have to kill me. I most of the critics of Russian policies deplore chech- in violence and terrorism and extremism, what they fear is that the means Russia has chosen will undermine its ends President Yeltsin nearly walked off before an aide said something that seemed to calm them down and keep them seated as documented in the transcripts the Clinton library recently released. Yeltsin would go on to tell Clinton over the phone. Of course, we are going to talk to each other you and me, but there will not be such a great drive, and such friendship that we had before that will not be there again, at least once in a fit of rage. Yeltsin hung up on the president of the United States his old pal. By the end of the nineties. Yeltsin was looking for a new prime minister and likely the person who would replace him as president. He was looking for a leader who believed in democracy, but also leader who wouldn't give in to the communists. They had been intent on impeaching or even imprisoning Yeltsin for his actions during the war in Chechnya and his introduction of the market economy. President Yeltsin needed someone who wouldn't put him on trial or his family on trial when he left office after going through several prime ministers, he selected someone from the federal security service. Russia's intelligence service Yeltsin landed on a fairly unknown name Vladimir Putin Yeltsin claims in his book to have picked Putin because unlike others who were up for the job Putin also a former KGB agent, look strong, just like a determined general that Yeltsin would read about in books as a young kid. Yeltsin added unlike other deputies who were trying to lay out. Their visions of Russia and the world he did not try to strike up conversations with me and precisely because of that I wanted to talk to a more said Evelyn Farkas, it was a combination of factor certainly note, the look for somebody who could guarantee his family's safety and his safety and given Putin's connection to the KGB, which then became the FSP, you know, the security services, obviously, that was likely he also felt that he had control at that moment, obviously over Putin and Putin had given him no reason to think that he wouldn't be respectful of the needs of of Yeltsin and his family Putin also had already developed his own pattern of looking after himself and his cronies back in Saint Petersburg, which is to say that he already was corrupted and so- Yeltsin didn't have to fear that this would be some guy who would come out on a holy crusade against corruption. That would end up impacting Yeltsin and his family Strobe Talbott writes in his book regarding both leaders temperament if Yeltsin was hot Putin was just about the cool -struction I'd ever seen. Putin would also do his homework and make sure you knew when speaking with Talbot. Putin would make references to the poet's Talbot had studied dating back to his college years. Clearly, Putin didn't just know the dossier on Talbot. But studied it in his book Talbot writes that Putin's remarks and knowledge were quote, both fluttering is in. I know you and unnerving as in. I know all about you fairly quickly. Vladimir Putin became extremely popular in Russia. He represented much of what Yeltsin and other politicians vying for the top spot, we're not while the others lived loud, enlarge Putin was the opposite. Well, Yeltsin was in bad health and well known for his. Enrage Putin made sure the public was well aware of his black belt in judo, his disinterest and drinking and his relative youth. He was about twenty years younger than Yeltsin Putin was quiet some world leaders saying they had a tough time even hearing him when he spoke well meeting with Talbott the two were given ice tea. Putin took out the two sugar cubes that were placed in his drink a Spartan diplomat. Tell they concluded Yeltsin had picked Vladimir Putin to hopefully, replace him. And Putin said nice things about Yeltsin, but like many Russians who was embarrassed by Yeltsin. In fact, this embarrassment seems to have run particularly deep with Putin said journalists, Michael Crowley for Putin Yeltsin's tenure symbolized, a profound humiliation the notion that the Soviet state in which she'd been raised and trained whose demise he once called the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century. Had become a client state with a leader. Who was a source of western amusement was stinging. It was a sting. He never forgot. And when Putin met with the Russian troops shortly after he took power on the first day of the new millennium January first two thousand he told them their mission included, restoring Russia's honor and dignity, Crowley added. That for Putin Yeltsin's drunkenness symbolize the self-loathing shambles to which the former superpower had been reduced. I think back to that sixty minutes interview throughout it you hear President Yeltsin grunting the attempts to chase down tennis balls, overweight. And with that headband, the video hasn't left my mind, it's hard not to imagine that it also never left Vladimir Putin's mind. It's hard not to think that maybe that's one of the reasons Putin releases those seemingly annual photos of himself without assured writing on horseback, he is. Man in charge. Not somebody lounging around a tennis court attempting to play some variety of sports telling child that toughness requires not taking a break for water, James Gould, Geyer, a former top Russian official on Clinton's national security staff said that from Putin standpoint, the Bill and borsch show was basically Boris saying yes to everything Bill wanted and that the US was basically defying the order of the world and what Russia's place in. It could be and that Russia was too weak to do anything. But go along I've realized that Yeltsin's drinking was far worse than I had originally thought I've learned that he was a complex person Liana ruinous director of Russian studies at the American Enterprise Institute for public policy research and author of a book on Yeltsin said like the country. He led the first Russian president was a study in contradiction and devolvement at once, sadly. Hopelessly and gruesomely in the past and daringly end inspiring Lii in the future. It is a stew -ality this quality of work in progress. That makes Yeltsin such a fascinating subject for biographer and such a difficult one. He was the man who ordered troops in Chechnya and for a year and a half prosecuted the war there incompetently with appalling brutality, and in complete disregard of his country's public opinion aromas continued and yet in the end it almost every critical juncture despite the mistakes that preceded the decision he moved in the direction of greater political liberty over a thorn -tarian constraints. It is without question that Boris Yeltsin introduced the world to Ladimir Putin. But what I've also realized is that if it weren't Putin, it likely would have been someone who if you can imagine someone who was just as bad if not worse, a leader who would also have imprisoned or killed his enemies and member. Of the press. We obviously will never know how that alternative pick would have played out when Yeltsin resigned on the day before the beginning of the twenty-first century, President Clinton addressed the world in front of the White House the relationship between the United States and Russia under President Yeltsin is produced genuine progress for both our people five thousand strategic nuclear weapons have been dismantled. Our nuclear weapons are no longer targeted at each other is lasting that even has been dismantling the communist system, and creating a vital democratic process within constitutional framework. The fact that Prime Minister Putin assumes responsibility today is acting president in accordance with the constitution is the latest example of President Yeltsin's achievement. I liked him because he was always very forthright with me. He always did exactly what he said. He would do. And he was willing to take chances to try to improve our relationship to try to improve democracy in Russian. I liked him. Because I think he genuinely deplored communism the lived with it. He saw it. And he believed that democracy was the best system. I think it was in every fiber of his being while the actual election of Ladimir. Putin would be an achievement in the ongoing progress of Russia's democracy. It also would result in a leader with very different principles and ideas of what a democracy looks like when Yeltsin died in two thousand seven Clinton along with over thirty other heads of state, former presidents and Royal family members attended his funeral. I wonder what Clinton was thinking as he said and the pew and looked on perhaps if anything Clinton was beginning to realize the Yeltsin's belief in Putin as a democratic leader is a perk. Perfect example of Yeltsin's oftentimes contradictory decisions for each one of his daring steps forward. It seems to have always been followed by several steps backwards. It only adds to a complex narrative when retry you tell the story the former President Boris Yeltsin his relationship with Bill Clinton and what really happened. Next week on what really happened. It's a six year old boy who is inside an experimental balloon with flying away with the balloon when it broke away from the, tether, our reports that he may not be in there. He's in there. We're going to cross our fingers, I get it's at one hundred feet. Let's all take a deep breath losing altitude. He's going down. Would you look at this? You want to say a little prayer you might want to do. So now one of the strangest things in the history of television career is going to. Balloon boy, baby. What really happened? Don't forget. Go to jinx pod dot com to give me feedback or jinx pod dot com slash contributors to become a part of the team. I'm on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram at Andrew Jenks, also very special. Thank you to musician Anya, marina, she will be at city vineyard November fourteenth and check out her brilliant web series Anya. Marina independent woman comes out November twelfth.

Yeltsin President Yeltsin President Bill Clinton president Russia Yeltsin United States President Putin America Boris Clinton library Boris Yeltsin museum Bill Schultz Moscow reporter Soviet Union President Yeltsin congress White House Boris Yeltsin George H W Bush
Masha Gessen's Y2K

Nancy

24:51 min | 1 year ago

Masha Gessen's Y2K

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Remember all of the fear around Y, two K? And how everyone was like the world is gonna end going into the year two thousand there was a fear that computers couldn't handle the turn of the century. And they all go. Hey, wire got nuclear power plants would meltdown planes would fall from the sky the banking system would fall apart. It was going to be like an apocalypse kind of end of times. How do you think you would handle that end of times? I have a very strong position on this been that I would like to be amongst the first wave to just give in to the apocalypse. You're not going to try and repopulate humanity. You're just like an out that is so much work. I also wanna go pretty early. But before that, I think I'm just gonna go to McDonalds and fry everything may have and chest up so many chicken. Before I die. Yeah. Last meal last meals. Mcdonald's. Sad. From WNYC studios. You're listening to Nancy with your host Tobin lo and Kathy too. Okay. So all those things that people were afraid of what happened on y two. K they didn't happen. No nuclear meltdowns. No stock market crash, but the new millennium did usher in some big changes for a lot of people. There was a feeling in the air that it was time for a fresh start people. Like, Dan Burski, he hosts the podcasts surviving Y two K at the end of nineteen eighty nine. Dan was a producer on the daily show with John Stewart, and he was married to a woman. But Dan was starting to realize he was gay right after new years in two thousand he came out to his wife and his marriage ended surviving Y2._K follows Dan story and the stories of other people whose lives were actually affected by Y two K for Masha Gessen big deal journalist, and author what happened on December thirty first nineteen ninety nine would change the course of her life. Here's Dan Burski to tell her story. In one thousand nine nine Masha Gessen is a journalist in Russia asking the big questions like would capitalism work in Russia after the Cold War could they even do democracy. Could they make it stick all great questions that Masha doesn't really care about right now? Because right now a couple of days before New Year's she wants the answer to a different question. Could she make someone fall in love with her? So it was like madly in love. And this woman was in Berlin. And I was in Vienna and like pining for her, and she was very cool wound. She was just she was just very cool, and it was very much. Oh, and so she had a plan to try and seal the deal, she was in Berlin. And I was going to kidnap her or lure to Moscow with me. And it was going to be like a turning point in our relationship shows going to go back to Moscow with me for new years and never leave. So this is your plan. This was my plan. I'm already rooting for you. Thank you. Picked her up in Bratislava. We drove to Moscow through the snow as it turns out epochs new on the week long road to Russia every place we tried to stop every hotel was closed because it was Christmas. My the only one imagining them both in giant for hats. And so we had to keep driving through the snow and she didn't drive. So I was driving. Oh, my windshield wipers, stop working. So I had to ask her to hang out the window and gave cleaning this off of my windshield. By the time, we got to Moscow my car finally choked on all the gasoline that we'd been filling up with in Ukraine like we had to push it the last couple of hundred meters. Oh my God. But I was also just so happy to get to Moscow. Now Masha had picked new years to pull off her lady heist for a reason. So first of all new years is the biggest holiday of the year there New Year's is like our Christmas. But without God the Bolsheviks had nixed. God at the revolution the Russians put up a New Year's tree. What do they call the tree? Golden New Year's trees. Good New Yorker. Thank you. You put presents under it. It's a big family holiday, you generally, gather your clan around you released Christmas, it is. Well, it's except us. News presence and black caviar and good cheer and the whole festive day, always culminating in the same thing. So people usually gather news eve sedan at the table. And then they watched the president's address just before midnight. About the party Adams Vimy who've style a child, this is Boris Yeltsin giving the speech of the year before in front of red square. It happens every year and everyone watches and the speech did had to be perfectly timed. So the president has to finish in time for the clock to strike midnight from the bills and the tower of the Kremlin. I. And this year. This was the big one. I mean, it's so symbolic about the millennium and this country that has never had the peaceful transfer of power before they were supposed to be elections coming in June Yeltsin's term limit was up. But lately he'd been making a lot of people really nervous. He was acting unpredictably. He was getting drunk in public Lexa. Verily southeast. He tried to conduct an orchestra in Berlin during an official visit because he was drunk couldn't happi having to be propped up by his bodyguards because he's so drunk. He can barely walk Masha arrives in Moscow on the thirtieth. And whatever happens with the speech. She will be watching listening to the clocks trait midnight at a party with friends and her new love who will hopefully be so dazzled by the trip and the gesture and Masha that she'll decide to stay in Moscow with her forever and never leave. But there are two schemes foot in Moscow tonight. And this is where the second one comes in. So we went to sleep they oversleep actually and are awoken on the thirty first by a gobsmack her of a surprise. And my phone rang would have been a landline ranked probably I don't know the one o'clock in the afternoon, and it was one of the people with whom were supposed to celebrate new that night, and she called and said, so is the party cancelled. And I said, what do you mean and said because Yeltsin resigned. And I said something to the effect of that being the stupidest prank over. It's not even funny. Would you like that? But it wasn't a prank. It was real Yixin product. Making last minute preparations for their biggest holiday the year. When President Yeltsin made his stunning announcement out of nowhere. Yeltsin pops up on TV in the afternoon almost twelve hours before he was supposed to and says Yeltsin out it looks in. Well, if you juvenile. Swim here decided to resign that he was tired. He said I was naive. I thought that we could resolve legacy. That's how it heroism in a single stroke, and then in the very same breath. Does something kind of totally totalitarian. And then he said that there is a new man a young man that Russians were placing their hopes, and and he didn't want to stand in his way. Yeltsin practically just points at someone and says this guy he's president now, and you're really going to like him. So as a journalist, my reaction was shit. It's near the his just resigned, and I don't understand what's going on. And Masha who was so worried about whether or not her own plan had worked. She would have to switch gears to figure out this one. And this one too would end up changing your life forever because the guy Yeltsin pointed to Vladimir Putin. We're going to go straight to Moscow is our first port of call. And what's been going on Boris Yeltsin stole the headline right out of the old and new millennium and take the dress to the country. He said he had signed papers transferring power to his chosen successor, Vladimir Putin. Eleven fifty six Moscow time, four minutes till midnight. Masha Gessen is watching TV where Yeltsin is supposed to give the traditional New Year's Eve speech. And then this little bureaucrat goes on television. Wouldn't you know, good noon, which Putin appears to give the speech instead he's at a big wooden desk in the Kremlin in front of a Charlie Brown Christmas tree with decorations that for sure just came out of a cardboard box. And someone's attic, he looks comfortable. He's got to go to the bathroom like he's going to get up and bolt and speaks the total bureaucratic language completely to personal. I think everybody was a little shocked, but it didn't take long for Masha to figure out how Yeltsin's plan to pick his own replacement went down Yeltsin's legal term limit had been approaching and he was week not just physically politically. So he was afraid that if the opposition came to power he was going to prosecute for things like illegally dissolving parliament in nineteen Ninety-three, and then showing parliament his own parliament with artillery when they refused to disband and people died, so there's stuff to prosecute him for. So he was looking for somebody. Who would guarantee him immunity from prosecution, and that's how his up on Putin. And then a couple of weeks before New Year's they hatched this plan for Yeltsin to resign early. So that there will be an early election for which no one would have time to prepare and Putin would basically be issue it because the president resigns new elections have to happen ninety days instead of in June. Like, they were supposed to Putin launched his campaign on December thirty first and nobody else was going to be able to watch. There's until mid-january and Putin gets to give the kickoff speech of all kickoff speeches ushering Russia into the third millennium. And leaving zero doubt that he is in control now, then then he goes into the quick sort of speech thing, you know, it's only go you're going to be protected, and it's a real sort of us against the world kind of posture. Where Yeltsin said we did we could and Putin is like we have a fortress. We haven't army. We've dug the trenches and the Russian people buy it. They're in the tough guy talk of strength and stability it resonates. But not for Masha. I just really want people to understand what a threat he was in the presence. Did you understand? Then how much your future in Russia would change based on what had happened that day? I I don't think I understood it fully. But you know, that said I think I was going to have to leave the country. I didn't think that twelve years later, he was going to make homophobia, the cornerstone of his politics. And that was like the last thing my mind. She getting into. Shin. But that's the future. Still just a feeling. She has as she watches the speech on TV at her New Year's party with the woman, she loves unsure it's cold outside. But it's warm in here and the vodka makes it more. So the lights on the New Year's tree and old hangs on. And all that good stuff. How is the party that night? I remember I was so happy. I was like so madly in love that was the biggest thing which probably brings you to your question about what happened with my project of having them. Remember, this all started when Masha stole her love interest from Berlin. And drove a Moscow for New Year's hoping gesture would be an irresistible beginning to romance. So worked out it does does she stayed in Moscow with me and oh wonderful. But Tober two thousand one we had two kids. Oh my gosh. You weren't screwing around. They're very large people. Gosh. Not doing. As they watch Putin finishes speech that night. It's going to snow them vehicle. He times it perfectly. As the bills in the Kremlin announced the new millennium in an even newer Russia. December thirty first nineteen ninety nine Masha senses. Big changes are coming to Russia. But she didn't know just how close to home they would head. We asked Masha to come into the studio to talk to us about it. That's coming up after the break. Nancy is supported by Showtime and the critically acclaimed series, the shy the heart and soul of Chicago southside lies in its community. But when your world is a daily struggle just to get by can you rise up and realize better tomorrow created an executive produced by proud LGBTQ, advocate, an EMMY winner, Lena waste and academy. Award winner comment the new season of the shy your Sunday, April seven at ten pm only on Showtime to try a free month of Showtime, go to Showtime dot com and enter code Nancy. This offers for first time subscribers only and expires may six twenty nineteen. And we're back. All right. So new year two thousand Masha Gessen is starting a new family with the woman in Russia mashes had a really complicated relationship with Russia. She was born there and she immigrated to the US with her parents when she was fourteen her parents thought they'd be safer from anti-semitism in the US, but when the Soviet Union collapsed Masha move back to Russia in nineteen Ninety-one to cover the country at a time of a men's change today. Russia's known for being incredibly anti-gay, but in those first years after Putin took over being lesbian. Couple wasn't something Masha in her partner had to hide in my case. It would have been very difficult to hide anything. Like the first time. I went back to Russia in nineteen ninety one the largest newspaper in the country printed on his front page an article Lisbon's coming to this feminist conference, which is. So like never been not wildly publicly out. I'm not sure. But in a way, it was very uneventful. I mean, it was will before the anti-gay campaign began it was like a dozen years before and sue queer people were just not part of public consciousness at what point did you start to feel the turn that maybe things were changing twenty eleven I guess, I was the of a very large glossy magazine and rather prominent Russians claimed that I and my team engaged in homosexual propaganda and forced upon them in foreign western values, and I didn't feel at all oppressed by this. I just thought it was weird. If non-threatening it's built nonthreatening and at filling otherworldly in very bizarre, which which only just tells you what? Did I was because because then like about a year later, it's so clearly flipped because laws against so-called homosexual propaganda were passed I in Saint Petersburg, the second largest city, and then on the federal level is that when you started thinking that this was not a joke. This is happening. Yes. Yeah. I had like like sort of a moment of instant conversion and freak out from thinking that it was ridiculous to thinking that. This was really scary in these laws when they refer to homosexual propaganda gay propaganda to them what constitutes gay propaganda. Well, those kinds of laws, and that's a great question because those kinds of laws are always created for random unforced -ment. So you can't actually tell what it is. But this is a law that actually enshrined second class citizenship. Do you have a sense of why the loss started popping up around twenty eleven twenty twelve like? What was it that changed that suddenly that was a thing? So to those in two thousand twelve was when the protest movement anti-putin protest movement to cold there were mass protests all over the country as Putin was coming back in as president. After taking a sorta break, I think the Pusan was really scared of the protests and the goal was to paint the protesters as other. And an anti queer campaign was very handy for that. Because it was queer baiting. The protesters and basically calling them queer immediate position them as other as imported from the west as enemies and also signifying everything that had changed since the Soviet Union collapsed. If you wanted to go back to an imaginary past and not be faced by old anxiety that the present and the protests caused you then you had to fight against people. So you you ended up leaving the country about a year after you've out to fight the administration on these issues. What brought you to that moment. What brought you to that decision? So parallel with the passage of the propaganda law. They passed another law which went into effect a week later was banned adoptions by same sex couples. What that meant was that it defacto created a mechanism for removing adopted kids from same sex families. And there was an article in once again, the largest paper in the country the pointed out that I had an adopted child. So my son just had to leave the country mmediately. So the law was passenger eighteenth. It was going into effect a week later June twenty third he was on a plane to go to the United States. Wow. Because it was very clear that we're going to be targeted under that law cheese. We had a going away party all his friends all these kids that hit known his entire life. You know, he was two years old night upset him everybody came. And there was a sense that he might never see them. Again. It was just awful. So once shipped our son off, it was kind of a no brainer. So now that you and your family are in New York. How is your life? Like now compared to what you thought your life was going to be like before you had to leave. Well. It's really nice to not be a country that's constantly hostile to both as equipped person and a journalist. I miss my friends a lot that shows for myself in life in Russia were you for much more intimate kind of social relationships. We're like I had this dodge of this house outside the city were our group of friends would just congregate pretty much every weekend. And we would just spend the entire weekend together. Susan, you know, it's a completely you can't really magin Americans doing that on a regular basis. Just kind of getting off the grid for two days every week and having a social occasion that lasts for date hours. Socializing in intimacy are apportioned much more precisely in America, especially oh my gosh. In New York. I cancel if the train five minutes late. I don't know if I could spend a weekend with you Tobin, just like the grid. Grid. A lot maybe challenging. But I think that one of the great things about being queries that we invent our families and invent ways of creating community and can ship. I think of that is not some kind of exceptional weird arrangement. But as actually exactly the kind of thing that people do the first time you left Russia. You were at a similar age or around the same age as when your kids also left Russia. Oh, yes. Yes. I thought that it was really remarkable the one of the most difficult things I've ever been through was emigrating as a teenager. So I decided to subject my two teenage children to exactly horrible experience. So I would say no, you're what you're going through. And there's no you don't. I have no idea. Do you ever hope that you can go back and live in Russia? That is such a totally American. No, I think that if you agreed back you don't like go away to sit things out. You don't put your life on hold to accommodate another political reality. So if I live here, I live here. Basha Gessen's Y2._K story was produced by Dan bear ski and Henry Milwaukee special thanks to Daniel Guilmette for editing episode credits. Production fellow been lay editor Stephanie Joyce sound designer Jeremy bloom executive producer Tobin low. I'm Cathy to Nancy is a production of WNYC studios.

Masha Gessen Russia Vladimir Putin Moscow President Yeltsin Nancy president WNYC studios Berlin Moscow New York Dan Burski United States Soviet Union Tobin lo Showtime Trump administration Babbel
Best of the Axe Files: Vladimir Kara-Murza

The Axe Files with David Axelrod

1:08:38 hr | Last week

Best of the Axe Files: Vladimir Kara-Murza

"The. End Now from University of Chicago Institute of Politics and CNN audio the axe files with your host David Axelrod. With the latest news about the poisoning in Russia Putin opponent Alexia, any and all the stresses on our democracy, some of which are emanating from the Kremlin, I'm reaching into the best of the X. Files Fault for this two thousand eighteen conversation with Ladimir Care Murtza of Value Leader of the democracy movement in Russia who himself has been the victim of poisoning twice. Vladimir murder also is a former fellow at the Institute of Politics at the university, of Chicago, and add another reason for choosing this particular conversation because you listen to. Vladimir talk about the struggle for democracy in Russia. I hope you'll think about the obligations we have as Americans to participate in free elections and exercise our vote. Here's our conversation. Vladimir Care Moore's so good to be with you so good to be with you this spring at the Institute of Politics You you continue to be. Despite the. Discouragement, will call it that and people understand what we mean later in this a a huge force for change in Russia but you kinda come by these instincts. Naturally, it's not a new thing. Your family has been involved in general is involved in activism involved in the movement, for reform, tell me about. The the family and and how you came to be who you are. Thank you David and it's wonderful to be at the Institute of Politics Great to be on your podcast. Thank you. Thank you for having me here. while my grandfather was a historian John Lewis, my father was a historian and Cillizza historian journalist and I always thought that you know when when it comes to choose my profession, I'm GONNA be. Whatever I will be but I'M NOT GOING TO BE HISTORIAN A. Has To stop somewhere. But then of course, as as these things happened when it did come the time to choose a I did go I did do his university and I. I did become a journalist began to join us from from the age of sixteen. I'm not doing that anymore now I'm in fulltime politics I'm an opposition. Politician you got combine the two obviously, but I was for a while historian and journalist and I'm from the generation. Whose first conscious political memory in Russia was the Democratic Revolution of August nineteen ninety, one, the three days. The change history of the world and so anyways Tell me tell me about that. Tell me about your memories of those days. I was ten years old. This was nineteen ninety, one So unfortunately too young to take part my father did spend all three days and three nights the revolution barricades by the Moscow White House. but I will certainly old enough to do that as an activist or did he do that as journalists? Wasn't a journalist Dan he was actually out he had kind of a position of principle. He did not work under the communist regime He I mean, he he he gave. Private lessons to students but you never worked officially thought that would that would go against his principles to work while the communist regime was in power because of course, everything was the steak right now she could not work not for the state in the Soviet, Union. So he only became a journalist actually ninety two. So when Russia was free from communist rule. So yeah, he was Joe just as a citizen of so many other people are. And this was a very. Formative experience for me those three days I was. So you know when when you ten you're, you're in any country in any situation that's old enough to understand a lot of things but certainly when you're witnessing revolution. Going on in front of your eyes that's you. You definitely remember that and that's that's a lesson that I'm gonNA carry for as long as I live and you know that what are the images that you remember of all the way it started was so know one morning in August of Nineteen Ninety one, World Cup an all television networks were showing Swan. Lake. Tchaykovsky. is by all the other programs was switched off and we saw tanks on the streets of our city because. The leadership of the Communist Party and the KGB decided to put an end to all these experiments with glasnost and democracy infrastructure and just. Go back to the what they considered the good always. And the leaders of that coup. Had absolutely everything that disposal or at least that's what it seemed. They had the state apparatus to Communist Party machinery they had the old television radio and the press they had the military. Of course, they had the police and we should point out this was a coup against Gorbachev. Right, it was more. She was technically, it was a coup against Gorbachev. It was more in reality coup against Boris Yeltsin who just two months before then in June of Nineteen ninety-one in the first direct election for head of state in history of Russia in a thousand year history of Russia defeated the Communist Party's candidate by fifty seven percent to seventeen Yeltsin ran as a candidate for the democratic opposition got fifty seven percent and the communist party candidate got seventeen percent and it was clear that onto his leadership Russia would go into even more radically democratic direction and so these. These old apparatchiks in the KGB and the Communist. Party leadership wanted nothing to do with it. So they decided to put an end to it once and for all. And so that morning they seized on the didn't even have to seize they control them anyway, all television press radio the switched off all the all the programs except Sloan Lake Gorbachev was placed on the house arrest in his summer residence in Crimea. And we saw tanks on the streets of our city on the streets of Moscow, you know the same Soviet tanks that was sent. To occupy Budapest Braga Vilnius that day they came to Moscow itself. And the leaders of that. Cool. Could absolutely everything disposal cried the whole machinery of the state and the military and the KGB which was the most familial machine of political repression. I think in the history of the world and they and they had that. And of course, they also had those tanks that we saw in Australia Russian citizens Muscovites who refused. To accept that refuse to accept that Cou. They had nothing except their own dignity and that determination to defend their freedom and a sense of what was right and so they went into the streets. In the tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands peaceful unarmed citizens. And, they stood in front of the tanks. And the tanks stopped. And turned away the iconic image, of course, was Yeltsin himself jumping on top of the tank that this was one of the tank divisions that actually joined the demonstrators went over to the side of the people as often happens in these events and so by the evening of August twenty first. So just three, not even full three days after the coup began it was over. the crowds went to. Lubyanka Square. which was the site of the headquarters of the Soviet. KGB. So in many ways, the main symbol of Soviet communist repression. And they tore down the statue of Fellas Jansky, the founder of the KGB or the checkout Katie the Soviet secret police. Russia's Country of symbols symbols are very important country. So this is the most vivid symbol of that change that democratic revolution, the statue of Jansky, the founder of the KGB. You know hanging by a new study that it was lifted on being taken down from its pedal stolen, of course. Eight years late of let him a Putin began symbols as well and in December of nineteen ninety nine when he was still prime minister this eleven days before he would become the leader of Russia. He went to the same place Lubyanka Square at the site of the old heggie peaking KGB headquarters. And officially unveiled. A memorial plaque. To Your android of a urine job offers the chairman of the Soviet KGB. Oversaw. One of the most repressive systems he was the one who expanded the practice of so-called punitive psychiatry. This is when people political dissidents those who opposed to the Communist regime would declared mentally insane and committed to psychiatric prison. Psychiatric hospitals were kept in tortuous conditions. He was the one who set up a special department especial directorate within the KGB, specifically aimed at targeting and suppressing political dissent previously as Soviet ambassador to good especially oversaw the invasion of Hungary. Also nineteen, fifty six he was in many ways a symbol of of of Soviet. Political repression and it was. To this guy that him Putin officially unveiled a memorial plaque Levin days before he became acting president of Russia remember those all these questions being asked publicly who's Mr Putin which direction you take Russia for anybody who's willing to signals that was the answer straightaway you know I don't want to lose the threat of your own story and I will get back to it in a second but Described to me where Putin was in all of this when at the beginning when Yeltsin lead. that. Counter movement against the coup and and and took power because. Putin was a product of the security. Establishment. There was an old KGB Apparatchik Explain what happened with him during that decade and how he navigated that what his thoughts were. So. Of course, the short answer is Putin was nobody nobody had known who he was except some people the city holdings in Petersburg where he worked as a functionary as as a bureaucrat I mean he he'd just come back. In one thousand, nine, hundred, ninety from from his posting in. East Germany as a KGB officers there. And in ninety one does that by the way is that one of the reasons there seems to be the this odd relationship with Merckel. That's like rife with tension. is that in part because he spent time there and she was, you know she was. East Germany said early and. I think I mean there's there's definitely a there's definitely a connection to Germany. No doubt except you know remember this also when Putin was coming to power a lot of people especially out of wish wishful thinkers in the West who wanted to see Putin a kind of a reformer somebody would continue the democratic trajectory. People would say that. Well, you know he spent so many years in working, Germany. Surely he would have been influenced by some of this and and this is correct. Not a democratic Germany problem is it was the wrong Germany I, and in fact, these people were right away because the political system. The Vladimir Putin has built in Russia today very much in many ways resembles the political system that exists that existed in a in a in a Democratic Republic that he's Communist East Germany because communist East Germany unlike the Soviet Union many other was a bloc countries was never officially a one party state is the multi-party system on paper. An East German parliament had several parties, and of course, all of them were just rubberstamps and they. You know enthusiastically supported the communist regime. This is exactly what we have in Russia today we have a parliament that's an famously or infamously as its own speakers described it's not a place for discussion it does have several partisan officially, but they all the same tune and that is being played from the Kremlin. So in that sense people right. But so in the nineties Putin rose. Very quietly inconspicuously through the ranks of bureaucracy I. local bureaucracy in Saint. Petersburg he was deputy mayor in charge of international relations. Then after the mayor of Saint Petersburg lost the election in hundred, ninety, six to his challenger. Putin was taken to Moscow began to work again as an official as a bureaucrat. In the Kremlin administration and the presidential staff, and then literally in the last eighteen months before he became president of Russia. He had this absolutely meteoric rise becoming I the director of the FSBA, which is the main domestic success range to the KGB. And Secretary, to the Security Council and Prime Minister and on finally. President you somebody said. Just six months before he became president that you know the expression of Russia will will be Ladimir Putin vast majority people wh- responded who he nobody knew. This was an absolutely astonishing. Example of. How to make a political figure from nothing and the First Election Putina Voronin in his life was the election for president he had never for anything ever. and I was last year was In, Ekaterinburg are the Yeltsin Presidential Center for my for the screening of my documentary, about Boris, Nemtsov and I had a few hours before the screening. So I went around the museum and the sentence by the way it's absolutely amazingly dot if you have a have a chance I I. Really. Remarkable in that it is there and stay they allow your screening they. They have a these displays that are observing to Yeltsin and should be honest. It's more more of a museum for a nearer than for human being for Russian it's it's done tradition of US presidential libraries. In fact, it was in part done by people who Who built the Clinton Presidential Library? In Arkansas so it was done with a with American participation but also a prominent Russian film director Kim participated in its in its creation and. I don't know how they do this. In fact I telephone the day after my film screening I called Pacelli Masha, who is President Yeltsin's daughter. She's one she's in charge of the central and I said. I don't know how you do this but thank you. This is such an oasis in today's Russia, we have this. Deafening propaganda. On all national television networks, which of course, are all now controlled by the State You know saying how? Talking about the decadent West talking about horrible ninety s and and you know Yeltsin's period is presented as this horrible time of humiliation and whatever else they make up and then I go to work to this. You know the Yeltsin presidential center and and is still by the way government-affiliated institution. I mean the chairman of the board is the current chief of staff of the. Kremlin. So it's not it's not a private entity state institution. Of course, he was from a president of Russia. And yet, it presents a very honest. I think very, very much complete picture of that complicated period. It was no doubt complicated there were many difficulties I remember I lived through them. I lived I lived in Russia and I just remember the difficulties. There were a lot of them and low them were. Caused by the legacy of seven decades of totalitarian rule they also had a lot to do with the fact that. For example, you know oil price back in the nineties was nine dollars a barrel in the first years of food knows more than one hundred. There is a big difference in that. But. Also, the nineties were a period when we had democracy in Russia, it was a period when we had free competitive elections know with the results were actually determined by how people voted. That's a revolutionary concept Russia today we had independent media and I was most television networks in the country actually owned privately owned independent of the state. That's again that's unimaginable today television network that would offer independent professional news coverage and political satire, an analysis, and and this was also. He was yes. He was a news anchor actually at MTV, which was the largest most popular independent television network in Russia in ideas, and that was the first one of the first targets. In fact, LIFA target of lightermen came to power. The first thing he made sure was to to shut down I'll take over independent television networks in the country, but one of the exhibits in that Yeltsin presidential sent any Berg. It's called the hall of successes. And it's about the people whom Yeltsin ah different times wanted to succeed him as president of Russia. And so. that. Whole security kind of. Documentary you walk in San you see those faces eliminated of people around you, and of course, with with an explanation of who they are the names net biographies. And that the list goes from Boris Nemtsov to Ladimir Putin and you can kind of see with every succeeding face he becomes worse and worse and worse worse, and finally we end up with with what we have today. I want to ask you just to close out this. Point. What is it about Putin that allowed him to make that meteoric Rise how is it that he orchestrated that? that that rapid journey from obscurity to. to. Power. Though in many factors but the the most decisive one was the second chat, which was the backdrop to his coming to power and it all began in August of ninety eight when largely because of the global economic crisis especially the. East. Asian financial crash. we had a big economic collapse in Russia. The government had to default on its debts. There was a massive devaluation of the currency and that was the time when the last today at least last liberal government liberal minded reforms government in Russia left power. And after that, every. Prime minister was connected to Soviet secret services getting Primakov than Sergei Stepashin and Putin. So that financial crisis really damaged the political prospects of of liberal reforms that pro-democracy reforms in Russia. Another factor was a the native militia campaign against. Yugoslavia in the spring of ninety nine that really ratcheted up the. Anti. Western. Sentiments in Russian society and that was also important factor for for damaging political I wanted to ask about that and. what you think. The West did wrong. In, the ninety said helped facilitate. A potentially if if you believe this Putin in the in the way in the rapid embrace of countries into NATO or were there things at the West should have done differently and obviously some of it is assistance to. Russia but different kinds of assistance. But that's all you know it's a discussion I've had with a number of him. As to maybe we should played our cards differently. yes I, think there are a lot of things west differently festival I wanted to say that up not one of those who who blames the problems of Russia in the nineties in the West or who says that the West is at fault for long understood but I. I mean, there are people who say that but frankly beach I'm not saying that an an and neither am I I think that would be frankly too easy too simplistic and not true and the main mistakes that led to this authoritarian restoration that we have with Vladimir Putin in Russia today the main mistakes were made by us by Russians by especially by the the first reform governments of president, Yeltsin not necessarily on I don't other at all through and bad intentions with Ranya Mattis, but just mostly because they were unprepared for the. Powerful and you in three days yes. Difficult to be ready. So. Well, at a country where you were trying to develop civil. Civil society that didn't exist democratic processes that were. Not there And and and you know in in contrast to. A system that had been grain for for so long absolutely, and there was so many mistakes made right from the beginning shooting I. Think the main mistake was made by the Russian government, but the democratic Russian. Government was it was not prepared to fully come to terms will the tighter and passed and to account for the crimes and to open up all the archives and to conduct `lustration, like other countries of central Eastern Europe, did way you actually play some limitations on the people who are involved in the crimes of the old regimes? From holding active positions of power we never had that we never had the full opening of the archives whenever had a full Trial of the old regime or whenever even had the you know anything like the Truth and reconciliation commissions like the head in South Africa follow apartheid. So we never had any of this and if you don't really turn the page and if you don't really account. For the past then it's easy to repeat in and this is what we're seeing today. So that's another many other mistakes that were made about President, but the West I think the biggest mistake that Western countries made with regard to the Democratic Russia in the ninety S. was there were not ready and not willing. To forty embrace and forty except the new democratic Russia. As an equal partner as an equal partner in their own ranks give you a specific example. On December. Twenty six, nine, hundred, ninety, one, one day after the red flag came down on the Kremlin. For the very last time. There was an orthodontic council meeting at the NATO headquarters in Brussels only made on buses sitting there led by the secretary general Manfred runner. And the Russian ambassador walks in. And he hands a letter from. President. Yeltsin addressed to the NATO sector gentleman. Fred Advice. And that letter it's since being published. Now we can find it online. it's that letter signed by the president of Russia. Officially raised the prospect of future Russian membership in NATO and Authentic Treaty Organization. It never even received a response. and. This is just one example of many others in the unlike for example Putin. Prayed on those kinds of things to suggest I don't own of that then that that particular at the sense that the West was. I know privately, he complained to American leaders. The West was disdainful of Russia the West mistreated. Russia it in confluence with these other things. Chechnya the economic collapse and so on. It help you know help make his case I think another important factor was at, for example, all the other central and eastern European countries that were once part of the Soviet led block. There were all offered prospective membership in the European Union to incentivize the reforms both political and economic and it said I can tell I have. Many friends and colleagues in central European Baltic states. I can tell you that this prospect of membership in European Union of European and euro-atlantic integrations of both NATO i. knew he played an enormous role it was a massive incentive for them. To. Conduct those often very difficult and very unpopular reforms, but they had a goal ahead of them that they work towards the now, all of these countries I'm members of NATO and European. Union we never had that prospect Russian. I've had that prospect even theory. There's no good reason for us not in Russia's a European country and the rules of European Union the Copenhagen criteria so that if you fulfill those are of course, there are there are very clear criteria into question about it but. It does say this document that the and the Treaty of Maastricht reiterated at reiterated that any European country that fulfils the Copenhagen criteria should be eligible for membership in European Union Russia's European country where we're an offer. This evening theory with NATO, already talked about this example from ninety one and it was you know this is just just one thing that standouts stands out there were many of them. And the kind of the astonishing thing is. That the same Western governments. That refused to fully embrace and fully accept democratic Russia in the nineties. was suddenly really open an very willing to accept Vladimir Putin. When he came to power we already talked about this. You know how Putin began his rule. With with the unveiling of the memorial plaque, Tom drop off in the first year of his presidency, he reinstated the stalin-era. Music of the Soviet national anthem as national anthem. Rushing. Again Russia's a country of symbols that if anybody was asking which direction Putin was going to take the country that was the answer and very quickly, he went from symbols to actions he began to shut down I'll take over independent television television networks as he began to go after the opposition and the supporters of the opposition when he jailed me. Was the richest man in Russia and who was was an active supporter of opposition parties. Opposition candidates also supported civil society groups and exposed government corruption who's put in prison in October two, thousand three as very out of vivid symbol of it message that if if you do what he does, you're gonNA end up like him. Then he began to rig elections and in two thousand three for the first time since the end of Soviet rule European observers has have assessed the Russian election as being not fair. I remember that in very well, it was a candidate for the Russian parliament two, thousand three. So all of these things were happening and all the while. Leaders in the West on both sides of the Atlantic both in Europe and and and here north. America. We're basically rolling out a red carpet for Vladimir Putin. I mean. I'll never forget in June of two thousand three. Literally, two days after Putin pulled the plug. On the last independent nationwide television network Russia literally today that's not a figure of speech two days. Two days after he did that he was treated. To a state visit to the United Kingdom with a lavish reception the city of London. London Guildhall with a royal reception of Buckingham Palace and I. Remember I was that was a job was working as a journalist of the time in London. I was I was asked this with my own eyes. It was absolutely boggling everybody. Toasting him, you know singing. Oh, he's a your goodfellow on what kind of message does dictate again when this happens and is the same things the same things were happening on this side of the Atlantic. George. W. Bush hosted Putin and his family retreat. Kennebunkport famously, or infamously looked into his eyes and got a sensitive soul. and and when President Obama came in instead of President Bush, she did the same thing. He declared a reset in relations. He praised Putin for the great work. He was doing a half of the Russian people and so on and so on. His Not, to be offensive in any way about this, but you know his relationship was primarily with Medvedev and I remember. I'm remember the the first conversation he had with Putin when we were in Russia was a pretty Contentious one but your point is taken. We're GONNA take a short break, and we'll be right back with more of the X. Files. As guys. So much of our identity is wrapped up in our hair and let's face it. No guys ever ready to go bald thankfully. 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Let me just ask you about your own journey because you anyone who's listening to this. Probably here's that there's a little bit of a British influence in your in your speech you spent some time during your youth in in in in Britain. how did that come about and how did that impact your development? I spent a few years in the UK as a as a student I went to to finish school there, and then went to university history at Cambridge, and also while I was still student I began to work as a journalist from age of sixteen hours a journalist there was A. Time don't forget us a ninety s the real precedent slow like it is today and there wasn't there was a new publication that opened in nineteen ninety-seven it was called noweis. West Year. It was it was a daily newspaper and they're just opened and I. wrote a fax to them, Still Fax and Some of US remember that and I basically said, you know you just opened up I presume you don't have correspondent in London I'm I'm a student I'm really interested in writing for you. Would you would you be willing to make me on as as a journalist and they got response back again by facts and the editor in chief said try and so I tried and I remember my my. Article was this was in one, thousand, Ninety, seven, I was sixteen years old it was about the. Vote in the British parliament about banning the Fox hunt something that was essential tradition. But of course, because of the cruelty and then the campaign led by animal rights, groups state, they banned it. That was my first number publication I. Think I'm always going to remember this and so I still in school in high school but already began to cause Johnson has continued for years then I went to. then I began to work for different Russian newspaper Commerce, as the main daily political newspaper in Russia. From. Yes still has the UK correspondent. and. was. Cambridge to to the history and come back to the conversation like my grandfather and I also decided to history and my specialty was actually In Russian, parliamentary history as Russia was allows great power in to to have a parliament our parliament was established in nineteen, ninety five and elected in nineteen oh six. That was kind of my area of specialty and then. when I graduated from from Cambridge, this was in two thousand three. Fifteen years ago now I am. Immediately went back to a return to Russia. Zozo is planning to and not same year in December of two, thousand, three I ran as a candidate for the Russian parliament for the State Duma that was that election that we talked about that was. The first election in Russia since the end of Soviet rule that was assessed by European observers is not fair actually they had brilliant definition they said it's still free. It's they said it's free but not fair. It was still free in the sense that we could participate because nowadays most opposition candidates are taken off the ballot ahead of time. So people don't even have a chance to vote for them for us. Back. Then we could still make it to about it I was a candidate and in a district in in the south of Moscow I was the youngest candidate in elections twenty, two years old, and I'm proud to say that was the only candidate are also sorry to say that I was the only candidate because I wish there were more but I was the only candidate in the country that was jointly backed by the two main pro-democracy opposition parties. The Union. Forces led by Boris Nemtsov and the led by Grigory. Yavlinsky Russian opposition. Is. notoriously. Unable to agree among themselves among ourselves know keep bickering about small issues instead of focusing on what unites us. But in my district managed to unite and I actually had a pretty good result for for twenty two year old with no money came second out of ten candidates got about twenty, four, thousand dollars. But of course, none of us want and that was that was a watershed election two, thousand and three was a watershed year generally because three things happened that year. That basically completed Putin's transformation of of Russia from from the imperfect and flawed. But nevertheless, a functioning democracy that that it was when he when he came to power. To the authoritarian state that it is today in two thousand and three shut down the last independent television network. This was June in October of that year, he arrested and jailed me how Khordokovsky the richest man in Russia who supported the opposition ahead of the elections who supported civil society groups who is exposed government corruption, and that was a clear message that this behavior will not be tolerated and that same year December the end of the year. We had that not fair election that resulted in the elimination of genuine opposition from parliament and since then so for almost fifteen years now. The Russian parliament has been basically a rubber stamp and as it sounds speaker famously described it as for discussion and you. You continue to work as a journalist she went to Washington for a while. So losing not election, right? But I I think the thing that would be confusing to Americans as you were a journalist. on the one hand you were also in Pol politics and the other. So explain how that absolutely what? Normally, that would be, of course, a conflict of interest if you're journalists politicians time, this wasn't the case with me because I was always a journalist covering foreign issues, international issues. So I I was a journalist in the UK. So covering British politics and then one in two, thousand four, I was offered a job of Washington bureau chief VI, which was which was a small privately owned satellite television network in Russia I was covering US politics US presidential campaigns had nothing to do with Russian politics and of course I was. Always a politician in Russia all my political activity was was domestic in Russia. So travel back and forth all the time and and he was actually as a journalist that I met Boris, Nemtsov? That's exactly what I wanted to ask you about. Tell me about him. He was obviously a huge. Influence in your life. He is I will always always consider this the greatest blessing of my life to have what this man said by site for more than fifteen years we met when when I was eighteen. And he has always a student on a journalist and he was he just recently resigned from Russian government as deputy prime minister who's running for parliament. The election which would win and he becomes the leader of the opposition in the Russian Duma. So this was in one thousand, nine, thousand, nine during the campaign when we met. And you know what struck me immediately was. His attitude. And his outlook I mean I've in my now almost two decades in Russian politics, I've dealt with work with a lot of political leaders and I can tell you that a lot of them. You know they would. Absolutely make it clear to you. You know where they are and where you are. If you work with somebody who was, for example, a one time senior government official. He would make clear that he was at one time senior government officials whole attitude that he would show that he somewhere out there and you don't down here when I met with Boris So. Again, he's just just resigned as deputy prime minister is leading a party in parliamentary elections and I was when I was nobody was an eighteen year old student journalist. and yet he would never sense the distance. He always announced one of his that was one of his defining. Qualities, he always treated you. As a human being. Regardless of status regardless of position regardless of these commodities, he always treated human being as a human being, and this is no this is the quality that was with him always and So that's when we began to work at the end of the nineties in one, thousand, nine, hundred, nine. And I've worked with him. Until the day he was killed. So for more than fifteen years and I've seen him in many different situation, you viewed him as the. The best hope you and viewed him as the the the leader behind whom. The democracy movement could unify. Is that a fair statement? He was the best president Russian have had He. He would have been had he become president of Russia as as Boris Yeltsin wanted him to by the way he was. He made it clear including publicly. And his family friends and colleagues, Yeltsin's how many friends and colleagues. Out still ready to confirm it today, he wanted himself to succeed him as president and I'm certain. That had he lived. He would day become the leader of Russia because we simply have no people of such stature left i. mean he combined so many things in himself and he festival he had government experience, which is something very few of us have because Putin's not in performance two decades right when Alvin Anti generation grew up under this regime. We we haven't had the opportunity to have experience those of us in opposition he had that he had very successful government experience in the nineties that were generally speaking a very difficult time economically in Russia. Awkward. Region where he was elected governor was an economic miracle and you had people from all over the world including from the US had the congressional leaders did Gephardt and Newt Gingrich go Nikki. To witness with their own eyes to see how is it possible that in the middle of this economic chaos, you have this one region which successfully conducted privatization which successfully defeated inflation, which which showed a really impressive economic growth figures all this while the rest of the country was struggling, and so he had very successful government experience in the ninety S. He was somebody who was an absolutely brilliant communicator I've spent a long. Time now in politics and have not seen. Anybody at least in Russia. WHO's able to communicate with people? The way he wasn't that's as obviously we know that's a very important talented. You need to be successful in politics. I mean he he could walk into a room. With four or five, hundred people hostile audience you could feel the tension in the air. And he will speak and debate and argue answer questions in an and respond back and you do this for now two hours three hours after he was done, you know two thousand, almost any site I've never I've never seen anybody else in Russia to this he was able to speak to very different audiences. That's another. That's another very important trade that not many people. Have mean he was able to speak effectively to you know a United States senator or European parliamentarian and to a local market saleswoman somewhere in Yaroslavl Vulgar region, and and that's actually how you want his last election in two thousand thirteen when he had no access to the media, now access to leave Fisher political process, but he just literally walked with his own two feet. Around the city and convincing people to win the election. I will tell you that when I when I enter viewed had a conversation with John. McCain he took me into his Senate office and showed me as memorabilia and among the memorabilia was a portrait of Boris Nemtsov and when he spoke about. He he he spoke with tears in his eyes. About him. In his admiration for him, obviously, those those talents that you speak of that leadership capacity is why he was gunned down two hundred yards from the. Kremlin at center and I had a I was interviewed recently by by American journalists from I. Don't remember the name of the magazine now but he he asked me. He said I know you're close friends. So forgive me follow this question's GonNa Sound but he asked me do you think you know those who ordered him killed made a mistake in doing so And I responded that you know my answer is going to sound even more quit No. I. Don't think they did because they killed the strongest one that killed the best one of all. He was the most prominent, the most charismatic, the most effective. Opposition leader against and so many different ways I mean he was for example instrumental in helping to convince. US The US Congress to adopt the Magnitsky Law House to explain that because this, this obviously is now an issue of current interest a lot of the intrigue around the two. Thousand Sixteen election including the meeting in June between Donald Trump junior and others in the campaign and apparatchiks of the Russian government was about robust their. Fervent desire to repeal the magnitsky act explain of that. Magnitsky Act is seen by the Kremlin as the biggest threat. What the Magnitsky Act does is it lay down lays down a very simple principle or at least what should be a very simple principle. Those people Who are complicit in corruption and human rights abuses in their own countries? Will no longer be able. To come to the US to receive US visas to on US assets to use the US banking and financial system sounds really simple rank. The reason this is so. Terrifying for them. Is Because, of course that's that's how they've lived for years I mean there's this fundamental and phenomenal. Hypocrisy and double standard right at the heart of the Putin system of power we have the people. The senior officials in the docs in the Putin regime. WHO HAVE FOR YEARS BEEN STEALING IN? Russia but spending in the West, the same people who have been abusing and. An undermining the most basic norms of democracy and the rule of law in Russia have been themselves and for their families enjoying the protections and privileges provided by democracy and rules on Western countries because it's in western countries with a buy real estate bank accounts, and the children to schools in the wives and mistresses to leave, go vacationing, go shopping and all the rest of it, and of course, this is phenomenal hypocrisy on that side of they have a cat but what's what's equally important this constitutes enabling in our view by Western countries because if you welcome the perpetrators of corruption and human rights abuses in Russia. On your soil in your than you are in effect enabling corruption human rights, abuses in Russia, and the Magnitsky Act puts a stop to that was the principle behind the magnetic. You'll and many of these people who are impacted by our allies of Putin Putin. Absolutely, allies the autographs, closest cronies I mean in fact when Putin came to power according to, Forbes, magazine just understand the magnitude of the problem. We had four dollar billionaires in Russia. The end of the nineties. Today, we have more than one hundred and the vast majority of them. Close cronies of ladder put his old colleagues from the KGB, his partners, his colleagues on the some Petersburg City Hall from the Osceola. Dacha Corporate Petersburg. This is this is a astonishingly nepotistic regime where you have the people who have used their proximity to Putin to enrich themselves at the expense of of the Russian plane expensive. The Russian taxpayers so For now because of the system we have in Russia where these people control the entire estate including judicial system. There is no way we can hold these people to account in our own country. So what the Magnitsky Act does is it holds them to account internationally. So you know as I mentioned, they steal in Russia and spent in the West for now there's nothing we can do through our state mechanisms to stop them from Russia, but we can't stop them from standing in the way speaking of the Magnitsky Act the the the. Import of and I mentioned this to To the Russians was reflected in and the meeting at trump tower What do you make of that meeting and? How much of a? How much do you credence? Do you put in the notion that? A barter, a bargain was being offered dirt on Hillary Clinton in exchange for Information. an sorry exchange for A. Repeal of the Magnitsky Act. I think the trump tower meeting shows. primarily. How important the Magnitsky Act as to the Putin regime and how important Weakening it. overturning it potentially repeating it is how much of a priority? That is what the Kremlin? I mean not even making secret out of the one of the first decrees. The Vladimir Putin signed in in May on May seventh of two thousand twelve when he officially returned to the presidency. Was a decree outlining the tasks for the Russian Foreign Ministry and one of those tasks this was written pen on paper by Putin himself one of those tasks. Was To prevent the Magnitsky Act from coming into force in the United States. So they're saying it themselves when the Magnitsky law was passed in the US in December of two, thousand twelve. The Way Putin responded to it. Shocked, even the most seasoned kremlin-watchers and you remember how they responded right they promised when the Magnitsky Act was being passed. They said, we're gonNA respond asymmetrically of course, which is the only way they could because you know not many US government officials hold pension savings and Russian banks owned property on on you know in the fairs region. So the only way they could respond was asymmetrically, but the precise nature of the response I think was shocking to even the most. Seasoned russia-watchers and what they did was in in response to the United States. Blacklisting specific human rights abusers from its territory. Putin introduced a blanket ban. On US citizens adopting Russian or children. And including stopping their options the already in process. So the families have been ready matched up with the kids and that was stopped in the middle and win over at least two children who died in Russian orphanages as a result of of not being. Able to this, and this is what this you know. The White House put out a statement. Apparently, the president helped author at saying that this meeting in June sixth of two thousand sixteen was about a Russian adoptions while adoptions is the code word for the Magnitsky Act of the Kremlin, how the Kremlin tries to frame it and I think if you need. An. Image. Of the moral character of the Putin regime while the lack of it rather it it would be that that they responded to the blacklisting of human rights. Abusers. By. Denying thousands of Russian. Children a second chance in life, and there's a prominent Russian journalists while eighty pollution. WHO said other time? A, the end of two, thousand, twelve that he knows of only two organizations in the world. The Tom Their own children to scare their opponents. One is come us and the other is United Russia party which is led by Vladimir Putin I can think of no better way of saying this. So in all of these many ways the Kremlin. has shown that reversing the magnitsky act is an absolute top priority for them. Because that goes directly to their own personal financial interests, and so this meeting is in trump tower in in the summer of two, thousand sixteen was just another illustration that they're ready to do any avenues any message to try to get to this goal including. Using unofficial proxies and much was made of the fact that it on the television scare this lawyer has acquired meeting from Russia that she was not. A government official will first of all just a few days ago. The documents that were published a spot of the dossier project the open show. Which is the organization where I'm the vice chairman says the Russian. Pro Democracy Movement in one of our projects is specifically directed to kind of transparency and anti corruption cases. It's called the dossier project and some of the documents that we help publish actually show this Nigga was in direct coordination was acting a direct coordination with the Russian state prosecutor. General's office which no knowledge right and she never actually even hid. The fact that she's a close friend of you at Chaika. Putin's prosecutor-general's okay. She doesn't hold any official government positions but you know the Soviets also the KGB also was known to use unofficial proxies. Unofficial kind of intermediaries to go and do the. You know the kind of one off Johnston, the Laura Reduce. What does it say to you that that that the that they took that meeting that the trump folks took that meeting Again I'm hesitant to comment on the on the US domestic political developments, but I think for me the main message of the story and when when the story broke out, I'm not I was asking myself to comment on on several US news networks about this and and everybody was kind of focused on whether or not this constituted collusion I leave that to to Americans to decide for me the main story in this. was how desperate the Kremlin regime is to try to overturn all we can get. We're going to take a short break and we'll be right back with more of the X. Files. This November will experience one of the most consequential elections of our lifetime in with headlines Changing every hour you need guy something to show you how all the stories together in why they matter I'm David Chalian in I'm the League Henderson and each week on our new podcast we'll help you tune out the noise and tune in to what's politically sound. Politically, sound a new podcast from CNN listen wherever you get your podcast. and. Now back to the show. You just one another big victory in Britain where so much of that Russian money flows talk about that Britain's onto the most important countries to to have the Magnitsky acton and we have worked there for years. In fact, just just a few days ago I was in London for another hearing at Westminster British parliament it was about human rights in Russia and spoke again about the importance. Of. Putting, a stop to this flow of corrupt dirty money from the Putin regime to Great Britain and on the on the first of me something absolately astonishing happened the British parliament by consent agreement between the conservative and Labour parties. Has, amended the sanctions and. Anti money laundering legislation to include. The magnitsky provision to include the provision that those who are involved in grocery and rights abuses abroad not just Russia anywhere. will no longer be able to this have happened if. Their NAP in. That nerve. agent attack onto. Russians in Britain which. COM which created an enormous amount of. Anxiety there I think it's still would have but it would probably take a longer a longer time than it. Did I mean it did take a long time. Anyway we we have worked with British members of parliament on this issue for years. but I I think it did help open people's eyes to the nature of the Putin. As if they needed another reminder, there's so many things happened on British soil. As you know, several people who have in one way or another cross, the path of of the Putin regime have died on British soil in Alaska because the most. Well known cases the case of Alexander Litvinenko in two thousand and six and a British citizen murdered on. British soil using radioactive substance and the British government wanted to do nothing about it. They didn't even want to have an inquiry took Marina Daytona Anco Alexander's widow nine years almost nine years to go through the entire British judicial system to basically force the. Government to have an inquiry on the Senate as you know, this inquiry concluded that this this assassination was likely Howard out on the orders of high levels of Russian government But you know they the UK has become now the country in the world to pass the magnitsky law the United States was the first the US pasta link. Two thousand twelve. And on the day. So we spend almost three years working extensively with them. With members of Congress on both sides of the aisle. To convince them to to do this to take the step Boris himself played an absolutely instrumental in fact, Senator John McCain said publicly on the record that there wouldn't be magnitsky act in the US that to me had it not been. Solved that's an I. think that's an astonishing thing to say, the United, States Senate and not not many people would say that. I saw this with my own eyes. This is absolutely true on the day. The magnitsky bill was being voted on in the US House of Representatives or pass with more than eighty percent support. This was November sixteen, two, thousand, Twelve Boris Nemtsov and I was sitting. On the Gallery in the US House chamber in Washington watching watching than vote on this bill. And Boris time and said, this is the most pro Russian law have passed in any foreign country because it holds to account that people who abuse the rights of Russian. Citizens and who steal the money of Russian taxpayers. The Kremlin tries to present magnitsky act his anti Russian. There's nothing anti Russian about hauled into account, the Crooks and human rights, abuses who steal frahm, and who abused the rights of Russian people. It's the pro Russian law and in December that same year two, thousand, twelve, it was passed. In the US Senate by ninety two votes out of one hundred I don't I don't know many pieces of legislation nowadays that gets get such a high such, a high support and under six. Of Two thousand twelve, it was signed by President Obama and became law, and since then Canada, the three Baltic states, and now as of the last few days, the United Kingdom have passed the same legislation. And we are continuing to work with other countries will be a few weeks being in Copenhagen to testify the Danish Parliament in support of the same as also working commentary in the Netherlands and Sweden in Norway in Australia. Many other countries in in an effort to convince more of the world's democracies to shut their doors. To corrupt. Illicit money and to send a clear message that the crooks and human rights abuses will long no longer be welcome. Nestle Vladimir for people who are listening are wondering about your own safety and security and with good reason because there to. Use, survive to attempts on your own life talk about that and And how it is that you continue to be as outspoken as you are. and and and you're walking around. My favorite me for compensation as you can imagine. But when I, say that I'm happy to be here. Really mean this. One we're happier here. So I'm to poisoning attempts on me. One was in two thousand fifteen in May actually almost to the day three months after Boris Nemtsov was count. and. The second one was just last year in two, thousand, seventeen, both of them were in Moscow and both of them were done in exactly the same way. So. This was some kind of a very strong unsophisticated toxic substance which knocked out all of my major body organs within the space of a few hours. A multiple organ failure was in a coma on life support and both times. Docs told my wife that had about a five percent chance to survive. So I suddenly very happy and very, very fortunate to to be sitting here speaking with you today of course, I have no doubt. This was done as retribution for my political activities in Russian opposition most specifically I think. In retribution to my work on the Magnitsky. Act because that is the thing then that there fear, they fear most. Well that's that's a reality I mean we know when we have known for a long time that it's that it's a dangerous vocation to engage in in active political opposition to the Putin regime to advocate for democracy and political freedom and the rule of law in Russia. we have known that it's a dangerous vocation to cross the path of of Kremlin, in any way, I mean this being. A strangely. High. Mortality rate in recent years among the people who opposed Ladimir Putin independent journalists, civil society activists. anti-corruption campaign is opposition activists, opposition leaders, of course, the the nation of Boris. Nemtsov, in February. Two, thousand fifteen was that most brazen in the most high-profile political assassination and modern Russia. and so that's the we know this is the reality but. Says your. Family. My family. My family is in the US and and it's just. Not, just basic safety reasons I mean I have I have the right to risk myself I. Don't have the right to tourist my family. So that's different. Yes. My is is outside of Russia, and actually many. Many of our colleagues have had to have had to do that not specifically. With the reality that you go back and And you continue to put yourself in in in an exposed position while I. I hope that when my children grow up, they'll understand why I was doing this in. Our oldest now twelve years old I think she's a she's beginning to understand somewhat ready but. Frankly. Pot of why I'm doing this is. Because I want my children to be able to go back to a to a free and democratic Russia. I don't want them to grow up knowing that the country is ruled by Kleptocratic authoritarian strongman by anachronistic regime I. Mean We're in the twenty first century now Russia's country. It's not okay. To have one man clinging to power for two decades and stealing blind I mean. That's that's not the normal course of events and you know when my when my kids grow up when when. As these things inevitably happen when everybody understands everything about the nature of the Putin regime and you know. It happens like this always win dictatorship's fall people look back. and. As he will didn't, we see that the time this was so August this will happen in Russia as well. And you know when when children go up and they asked me Daddy, what did you do when all this was happening country I want to have something to answer them. Why to why do they let you back into the country? Well. They can't. They can't not let me into the country Russian citizen. I mean, how do you not let citizens of the country into the country so that? Putin doesn't seem averse to finding. Ways to. They don't the only person that they haven't actually led into the country is Vladimir Bukovsky. who a legendary figure in Soviet dissident movement and he's he's still he's not as active now but he's he's still he's still a very legendary figure very high authority for many people have actually stripped him off his Russian citizenship, which is not allowed by Russian constitution. But as you as you rightly say, you know they don't care much for legal niceties. So he's the only person that they've done this to as the others I. Mean we see that there are different ways of dealing with people I mean a lot of people of course are wrongfully convicted and imprisoned. As political prisoners according to the latest report by. The Memorial Human Rights Center which is the most respected human rights organization. Russia we have more than one hundred political and religious prisoners in Russia, today in Russian prisons. So people who are in prison. Only, for the political and religious views, this is this figure that's already approaching late Soviet numbers when Andrea Sahara wrote his Nobel Lecture Nine Hundred Seventy five he listed one hundred, twenty, six political prisoners in Soviet Union. Today. We have more than one hundred in Russia So that starts of course, the preferred method they you know there are many attacks. There's harassment people are forced into exile, and of course, as we have just been discussing. Many of our friends and colleagues have lost their lives in the last year as for opposing the regime. So that's these other ways that that these other things that usually happen to opponents they haven't they haven't really tried to keep anybody. Out I. mean the day. You'll be even by the standards it'd be difficult to do that. So they tried to to deal with people another way. What precautions do you have to take when you're in the country? Not, much, I mean what can I do? I can't not eat not drink not breathe I mean. The only practical thing I can do is to to have my family outside of Russia. That's the only thing. Put just got real active he He jailed his his no no Vanni, his most Prominent potential opponent, which generally enhance your of victory What is the state of the Democracy Movement? in Russia and and the Civil Society Movement and is there anything that gives you hope because? As emboldened at this point. Saying dictators are usually very good at producing a high election results. Sahara seventy-five percent Mugabe had more than ninety percent, Ceausescu had ninety nine percent akon remaining communist dictatorship unless election quote unquote, he ever took part in. The you know it's it's really. Funny but it's actually not funny. That's quite tragic that so much of the world media including respectable media. Still, refer to. You know elections in Russia as elections without quotation marks, and you know what you just said with a smile on your face to Putin was reelected many people say seriously oh yeah. Putin's reelected. He got seventy six seventy dollars really pop Russian citizens. Well you're not some difficult, it's not difficult to win when your opponents not on the ballot. And there were two prominent opposition leaders in Russia who are planning to challenge Putin this year in two thousand eighteen. Was Boris Nemtsov who was not in about because he was killed three years ago. And the other was Alex signifying the anti corruption campaigner was not on about it because it was deliberately barred from running. With a court sentenced by the way that was already overturned by the European. Court. Of Human Rights but as we've been discussing legalized is not what bothers Dukmajian usually so you can take your opponents out beforehand. That's difficult to win an the the meaning of this of this election. We just had called an action which you said in March she's no greater than the meaning of elections we had in the Soviet Union with ninety nine percent of people voted for the Communist Party. You know when when, when the communist regime collapsed in three days in August of Nineteen ninety-one people remember those ninety, nine percent. So it's absolutely meaningless to talk about popularity and elections and I think much more. Meaningful pitcher of what's happening in Russia today. Those mass protests that have been happening all across the country indisposed Sierra loans beginning in March of two, thousand, seventeen in March of last year. When you have. Tens of thousands of people Hogan out to the streets all across the country. To voice their protest endemic corruption at the lack of accountability and transparency, the lack of free and fair elections you know. All the abuses in the policies of the Putin regime and Don't forget to go out to demonstrate against the government in in Russia is not like to go and demonstrate against the administration in the US. You know here we have you festive amendment rights. You're protected by police when you go out and demonstrate against the president in Russia beaten up and arrested by police demonstrate against God I'll. Interrupt. You just at this point to say what should be obvious to anyone who's listening which is. Week we have we are blessed in this country. Flawed. As it may be contentious, our politics can be we are blessed with the institutions, of democracy. And the rights and guarantees that you speak of, and we ought not to take those for granted I. Think we sometimes do and So I, I'd be remiss if I didn't. If. I didn't say that I also want to ask you what your observations are I know that you're you're not a partisan figure here in this country and you've worked with people both parties I'm not asking you to. Weigh into American politics. But what he talk about the Russian intervention in two thousand, sixteen election year. What Putin would say everything's relativism with him what he would say as well you know Americans interfered in our election by supporting these pro democracy. groups so you know why I'm just you know. Now, he wouldn't take. He obviously doesn't embrace some of the some of the activities that went on as ordered by him, but generally speaking. His attitude is Americans were. In our presidents. Some somewhat supported that by saying we're no angels either Is Your assessment of what was done in is this something that is becoming more prevalent with Putin. he seems to have embraced the Cyber Tactics of the twenty first century with a with relish. At first of all, you rightly said I, I don't think it's my place to comment on the domestic cynical seen in the US I, think you have enough Russians trying to meddle in your domestic. One more. But I will say that if it is indeed proven as a result of all these investigations and probes in indictments in hearings that the Kremlin and the Putin regime hasn't he interfered in the US election in two thousand sixteen. That Frankie should not come to surprise to anyone and the Putin regime has been interfering in elections for years. The festival actions have began to interfere with were elections in Russia. because. You know when Putin came to power, we had democratic competitive elections in our country. Now, we don't that made sure of that. So those were the first elections they've meddled with, and then increasingly they began to meddle into the FAZ political of other countries. Initially, the Post Communist countries in on operator you know Ukraine Georgia Moldova the states. then going further into Western Europe, for example, just years ago there was this is only from what we know from public information. Just imagine how many things we still don't know. But from what we know publicly a few years ago, there was a multi million euro loan. Issued from Moscow connected bank to the far right National in. France out of the French elections. And so if if if it's proven that historically the same here that that shouldn't surprise anybody and I think it's also important what Marine Le Pen actually visited with Putin a week before her election the last. Presidential Pretty Open about Ashi I think what's also important to keep in mind? which was I think something that. Initial years of Putin's regime many Western leaders either. Ignored or or or chose not to notice the. The way the Kremlin. Externally in foreign policy is a direct reflection of how behaves domestically domestic repression and external aggression in Russia go hand in had always. And by the way, it goes both ways. So when Russia itself while striving for Democracy Ninety nineties, it also helped president. Yeltsin's instrumental for example, in helping the Baltic states achieve independence from the Soviet. Union. That's unimaginable today. But that's what happened because when Russia's democratic inside, it also behaves as a responsible citizen on the international stage and the reverse is true. So a government that abuses and violates the rights of its own people. and. That violates its own laws and its own constitution. Why should respect international norms of the interest of the international order? It's not going to and so sure enough you know those leaders in the West who had for years been turning a blind eye on political repression in Russia on election fraud, Russia on media censorship in Russia and all the rest of the abuses domestically. One day woke up to the first territorial annexation in Europe since the end of the Second World War, which is what Mr Putin didn't Crimea those things together, and so you know there's been this kind of traditional line of argument by the advocates of so-called real politique who say that you know when it comes to choosing between values and interest values and interests when it when it comes to dealing. Of the West dealing with Russia the Western choose interest forget about values choose interesting and do this kind of in a pragmatic way. Well, there is no conflict between interests and values because at the end of the day. when Russia has a government that respects democracy respects. The rule of law respects the rights of its own citizens at home. It will also. Become a responsible citizen on the international stage. So of course, when democracy returned to Russia. This will be first and foremost to the benefit of us of Russian citizens but I think it will also. Be Beneficial to the entire international community. To help, government in Russia. That respects the notions of democracy and rule of law at home. Vladimir you are a brilliant and courageous person and just stubborn always say that. Has Good. The rest is good too and all I can do is Thank you for. For the fight you're waging all of us stand with you or least. Should and we we we will be watching and and and hoping. That Democracy Desert. Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to the X. Files brought to you by the University of Chicago Institute of Politics and CNN audio. The executive producer of the show is emily. Stanton. The show is also produced by Miriam Annenberg Jeff Fox Hannah MacDonald and Allison Civil and special thanks to our partners at CNN including Courtney Coop Ashley Lusk and Megan Marcus. For more programming from the I, O P visit politics style. CHICAGO. Dot Edu.

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The Moth

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36:33 min | 9 months ago

The Moth

"All right so can you introduce yourself. Yes I'm learns and on one of the producers on July Lillard Lawrence. You're an absolute loot machine. You do so much for the show you come up with episode ideas you right. You tabled factor you find archive footage but we make you do a lot. I I don't like this around really uncomfortable. I'm sweating also the mastermind behind a through line twitter account. You are twitter iota. Yeah and I. I love that part of your job because I get engaged directly with our listeners and you know here what they think of the show sometimes as soon as it comes out and there are some amazing tweets. I've I've said that I really want to read you guys all nervous. Stir amazing going here all right here we go. If I have a new career. Today it would be teaching high schoolers but only if I had the access to the staff of three line. NPR professor Arab. Louis it's got a good ring. I'll tell you the next one is. I saved up a bunch of through episodes to get me through latest Tattoo session. I remember seeing this picture excitable. Yeah Yeah Respect Jim Rick and my personal favorite. I listened to through line. I've literally never heard of in my life. It's so good I have one more. Asmar video but it's just a to journalists on through line NPR pronouncing their names back and forth forever. I love that can be arranged. What are you doing this is this is really weird guys? Anyway thanks for all your love out there and you can show us even more love by supporting your local. NPR Station which helps keep our show. runnings just go to donate NPR dot org slash through line to find your local station and make a Gif. Thanks okay we're GONNA take you back to two thousand nine for a minute to a meeting between President Vladimir Putin and a bunch of wealthy Russian factory nurse but but you won't introduce new GIG authorities possible in my issue which is used as they do now just imagine the scene who who and whose voice for hearings is sitting at the head of a long rectangular conference table he's got jeans and a windbreaker and guys in suits are sitting around that table hanging on his his every word and the Russian press is there to capture it all Putin is asking the group. Why haven't you fixed this labor dispute yet? You were running. Around and high quote like Cockroaches Doc roaches before I get equals and it's no accident that he's dragging them through the mud in front of the Russian press. This is a publicity stunt after scolding them like children who makes them all sign a contract ordering them to reopen their factories and he picks out one particular factory owner who again no action is a prominent Russian billionaire. The name by the way as Cup several times in the Mueller investigation. Oh like therapath Scott. Did everyone sign this. Are you signed. Yes I have signed still and make pasta. Get up out of his seat. Walk all all the way around the table and sign the contract again and Dare Pasco. Walks away coincides. Give me back my pets and makes their Pasqua walk all the way back over to hand at Tam Russia's taken on a larger role on the world has officially calling a Russian invasion of Ukraine. Putin is preparing to extend his powerful grip into a third day reading Russia's longest serving leaders Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin You're listening to through line from NPR. Will we go back in time to understand the present mm-hmm hey I'm Rhonda. I'm Robert Bluey and on this episode. Decoding the power of Vladimir Putin so that video we opened with it honestly felt like I was watching a scene from a mobster movie. Yeah Putin pre much casts himself as a mob boss in that meeting like he's he's really trying hard to portray himself himself as a tough guy too. That got US thinking. How did Russia come to be run by the Sky Vladimir Putin today when you say Russia you might as well be saying Putin? Because he's been running the country for nearly twenty years and on the one hand you have this over the top image of Putin the mob boss the Guy who writes shirtless on horseback or scuba dives for ancient treasures. That of course he always finds and all of this is designed to make him. Seem unstoppable like some kind of James Bond strong and Suave and you dare I say even sex ish okay But this is Putin on display. Right is him posing. But then there's this other side of Putin as the protector of Russia the person who's restored Russia's standing in the world the puppet master who invades countries and kills dissidents so these images of Putin that we see. How do they come to be? And how do they help him. Maintain power to answer those questions. We have to understand how he became. The person received today kind of like a ghost ghosts of Christmas past for Vladimir. Exactly there's an international escape and Saint Petersburg a bombing conspiracy and a reality TV makeover Support for this podcast and the following message come from Google from Connecticut to California from Mississippi to Minnesota millions of American businesses are using google tools to grow online the grow with Google initiative support small businesses by providing free digital skills workshops and one on one coaching and all fifty states helping businesses get online connect with new customers and work. More productively learn. Learn more at Google dot com slash. Grow Hey mindy year. NPR's in the world doing guy. Rosin me for our special one hundred episode. Musical Science Sayi- laughs. It's well when the world from tinker cast in NPR. Listen now share with your kids part one the great escape. We're GONNA start the story where Vladimir title in career began in the Soviet Union's notorious intelligence service the KGB. She started off a wall junior appropriate not very successful. KGB facade this is Edward Lucas. He works for the Economist and was there. Moscow bureau chief from Nineteen Ninety eight to two thousand thousand two so Putin fresh out of law school was recruited to join the KGB way back in nineteen seventy five not. A lot is known about that time in his life but what we do know. Is that in one thousand nine hundred eighty five. He was assigned to a post in a city in east. Germany called Tristen and that meant he was too far from the capital. Berlin sticks. Exciting spy games that were playing out there during the height of the Cold War. And it's not clear that he ever ran. Any agent soul dotted did any real espionage operations of the suggestion that he's being joe boost to be it country intelligence. He's job was checking up on other people which is necessary run to and spent five years Dresden and a total of sixteen years and the KGB all the while slowly working his way up the ladder doing the jobs necessary to get ahead but then in nineteen ninety-one Soviet president. Mikhail Gorbachev has been removed from our house arrest adopted the failure of the August coup never become republics announced they are forming separate Commonwealth of Independent States Russia the world came crashing down around him. Yup Look you do most three walking just months after an attempted. Coup Mikhail Gorbachev resigned from his position as president the Soviet Union actively Britain agreed Susan's. You see Charles Eckhardt have down and you could in studio outcrops real power. Suddenly the country went from having a centralized communist economy to something that it was more privatized. It was a wildly unstable time for everyone. In Russia a free market emerged that was poorly managed and a breeding ground for corruption mobsters and other. The criminals took advantage of the instability and Russia's massive wealth was picked off by a few at the top amid all that a new leader came to power in Russia. His name porous. Yeltsin tried to stabilize the Russian economy. But his methods were Pretty Shady Yeltsin's government more or less acted like the Mafia. You me a favor. IOU return a favor later at CETERA. Good old-fashioned corruption increasingly in the nineties. There was a picture of Russian politics as a kind of Byzantine court with all of these people with their new fortunes trying to get favors and influence decision making by the immediate circle around Yeltsin. This is Steve Sestanovich H. He's a professor at Columbia. University was a top official in the US State Department during the Clinton administration now. I'm sure you're wondering where Putin ended up in all this chaos and the truth is it left. Him Sort of disoriented. He'd been forced to move back to Russia with his young family after the Berlin Wall fell his job with the KGB no longer existed because the KGB no longer existed it went down with the Soviet Union so his career plans were completely derailed. Eventually though who who inkatha break he got a job in his hometown Saint Petersburg as an advisor to one of his former law professors and mentors Anatoly Sobchak by at that point subject had left the university to become mayor of Saint Petersburg and subcess deciding to take a chance on Putin appointed him. Deputy Mayor of Saint Petersburg. This was Putin's training ground. It's where he learned how to play the game version politics and he made it very clear. He had higher ambitions than just running things behind behind the scenes in Saint Petersburg engineers suggest a little bit. This is the clip from the one thousand. Nine hundred documentary Putin commissioned about himself. It's called power and in this scene. Putin is driving. His is visible in the rear view. Mirror snow covered the trees pass by outside of his window and then he makes a bold admission that he was formerly a member of the KGB which wasn't very popular for a lot of people at the time it was kind of a symbol of Russia's dark past for subject. That was exactly why I wanted Putin on his team. there are photographs. There are reminiscences recollections of people who say that Putin had the desk right in front of such and such I think it's pretty clear wanted him there in a position of kind of a minder gatekeeper monitoring keeping an eye on who is coming in. Who was going out? There were a lot of skills that Putin's particular resume offered subject at the time skills like being stealthy observer operating in the shadows Andrew. Meyer told a story about Putin that he heard from an American diplomat back when Meyer was Moscow correspondent for Time magazine in the nineteen nineties. He was always the guy at the reception in the corner. Often silent. Not Drinking King is famous for not drinking and taking note observing and he said we call them the ghost because he was always present but never really visible visible not to really understand Putin's rise to power. We have to understand the dynamics between his boss sub chuck and Yeltsin. Who remember this? This time is the president of Russia. It's dramatic tale of two rivals. Who couldn't have been more different? Yeltsin was kind of the big bearish often clownish on his Buffoon who would love to Obviously drink shots with you and was to King of bluster. Subject was everything the opposite Very measured and someone really that the West and especially government officials lawyers business people. You could appreciate Yeltsin began to feel threatened by sub chuck. who wasn't a yes man? He wanted plus Yeltsin worried. That subject was becoming. A potential. Opposition candidate candidate might mess up his chances for reelection and the sub Chuck Yeltsin Relationship Bloomington to an outright rivalry the test subjects loyalty Yeltsin summoned him to his office to ask them about reelection and he very simply says you know what you think. Do you think I should run. And subject of course gives the wrong answer. What does he say that? I'm not sure that this time you should think about taking it easy. Maybe it's time to step down. Maybe it's time to think about your health. Maybe yes I think about your family and those those were the last words that Yeltsin wanted to hear such Had failed the test and at that point Yeltsin basically declared war on it began with legal cases it began with Alan Yellow Journalism. He became a victim of tabloid highly. Highly sensationalised charges flew almost daily was a drip drip drip torture on subjects subjects name was mired in months months of scandal. His reputation was in tatters so when it came to his reelection bid for mayor of Saint Petersburg he lost humiliated and facing a bunch of criminal investigations. That may or may not have been politically motivated and could land him in prison. Subject was in serious trouble but then one day in the middle this chaos subject a man forbidden from leaving the country shows up in Paris. In those days. This was not something easy to pull off. that a man who was officially wanted by Russian intelligence Russian law enforcement His own political rivals. Oh so that he could just end up in Paris but subject had someone with special skills on his side. Putin orchestrated this sort of fantastic mystic escape. He hired a range to hire through an intermediary a private jet from Finland brings it across into Russian. Airspace gets sub chuck on the plane. Somehow they get across to Paris and it's only then when subtract lands and Paris that the world finds out to and had basically done the impossible and in the process proved just how clever and loyal he could be and this this event banded Putin on Yeltsin's radar eventually Yeltsin became so impressed with Putin that he gave them a position in his government. Uh boy this is kind of strange right like why would Yeltsin choose to hire the guy who was his rival all subjects per today whether a couple of things I mean one is It didn't matter Yeltsin was behind the campaign To doom him the fact that Putin came sort of writing on the white horse to rescue is what resonated loudest in Yeltsin's mind. Did he think maybe do this for me one day. Because you know Yeltsin's government was super corrupt and he was quickly making enemies losing popularity. Yeah there's no question that everyone at the time remembering the subject rescue and at the same sometime Yeltsin not only physically infirm but all kinds of legal questions surrounding his own regime The threat not just of kind kind of illegal nightmare haunting Yeltsin but even maybe something worse something like a a coup against him clearly premium was on loyalty and Putin was the man who had that greatest experience showing loyalty. I want to stop here for a second rump teen because this whole subject episode in everything everything that happened after the collapse of the Soviet Union it kind of feels like who in was on the receiving end of all that like that he was writing the wave and happened to end up on top yet and way he was just kind of in the right place at the right time. I mean it doesn't even feel like he's a main character in his own story of this. Yeah he's like an accident of history or something. His former mentor happened to become the mayor of Saint Petersburg he happened to appoint him deputy mayor of Saint Petersburg and ironically weekly when subject fled. Yeltsin took an interest in him and he's lucky that Yeltsin even reacted that way. In fact things keep getting better for Putin not long after Putin makes it to Moscow. He's appointed the head of the new intelligence service in Russia the FSP also known as federal. Nyah sloughs by Belva has a personality Rossio Square Razzi. How they do honestly not? That bad wouldn't stay great either. You know what I mean I would say fact average more than anyway the FSB's roll. Well it's not all that different from the KGB which remember remember Putin had been a part of for a long time so he was returning to very familiar territory and as the head of the F. B. Putin began his stunning sent to POW This message comes from. NPR SPONSOR Doctors Without Borders Doctors Without Borders teams confront hard facts in conflict and crisis zones when others look away they step into act in emergencies and their aftermath. They provide essential healthcare run hospitals and in clinics performed surgery battle epidemics carry out. Vaccination campaigns and more information on their efforts and campaigns in over seventy countries can be found at doctorswithoutborders Doctors Without Borders. Dot Org pay. I just want to give you a quick reminder to make a donation to your. NPR Station today. Just go to donate that. NPR DOT orrick slash through line to find your local station and make a gift. Thanks partout Putin Wax Dogma Doc. The year is nineteen ninety nine or is Yeltsin has been ruling over Russia for the last seven years or so but his health is failing and he's just barely won reelection recently faced impeachment and he's alienated has parliament and government. He realizes he can't hold onto power for long mhm but he also knows just how much government has stolen from the Russian people. Russia's President Yeltsin has done it again second his entire government and plunging engine his country into crisis and he's worried that the next president. We'll try to hold him and his quote Unquote family accountable. So he needs to find successor who he can trust who better than a guy who just a few years earlier took extreme measures to cover up for his boss and so- Yeltsin picks in out of relative obscurity to be Russia's next prime minister hoping that if all goes according to plan and that's a big if he might become the next president Push was really. I think the last desperate throwing the dice by the Yeltsin family because they were facing impeachment pitchman the Duma. The Russian parliament was really fed up with the way to come should be wrong and the corruption of the Yeltsin inner circle again. We're Lucas for people. Oh really going off to him and you know they tasted blood already and so I think what happened was that the Yeltsin family turned to Putin as a former KGB guy and and say can you fix it but he still had a problem. Russia was a democracy and so Putin had to be legitimately elected as president and at that point pretty much there's no one inside Russia or outside Russia Psalm as a potential world leader I mean people in the US State Department could barely believe yet even been chosen as prime minister in the first place. I remember getting a call in the early morning From the State Department telling me that this had been the President Yeltsin's choice and I you know I laughed out loud the idea that this seeming nobody could be appointed. Prime Minister of the Russian Federation was astonishing to me and my colleagues but one thing we were pretty sure of was. This guy wasn't GonNa last at this point S. skepticism meet cents cents for outsiders. Putin's rise came out of nowhere and it didn't seem like he'd last cease Asana Vich told us about the first time he met Putin when he was working in the State Department during the Clinton years he was then very new on the job. He was very unsure of himself hesitant but ingratiating he obviously really wanted to make a good impression on the president of the United States He was clearly very conscious of being not only a newcomer to a high politics but much shorter than Bill Clinton and you could tell just the physical presence of Clinton somewhat uncomfortable comfortable and what did Clinton think of him I mean Clinton afterwards said he liked him. He said he's so Russian. I remember being a little surprised by this because because I could tell what Putin was trying to do was not seem Russian He was trying to seem German competent impressive professional. All in contrast to Yeltsin. Who Clinton was used to dealing with? I also told Madeleine Albright after the meeting that he seemed to me a little rodent like you know a small animal with a big nervous beating ours but You know the next. It's time we saw him the next time they saw him. Well we'll get to that. Let's just say he doesn't Seem rodent-like for long. See The thing that most people didn't realize the time was that Yeltsin and Putin were willing to do anything to get him elected. It's a devastating scene. The whole midsection midsection of the building is gone. All that's left. Some apartments are decorative rugs on speculation that the explosion was not an accident yet so celebrity slash cities attack and plush securities searching. Obviously a series of bombs. Go off an apartment government buildings across Moscow then symbols. An apartment woman is a couple of seats. But of course Moss Gore was the most important one with US Elsa two hundred plus people were killed and more than one thousand were injured. A Yes sky. this Sui Ski. I'm a historian I was born in Russia. moved to the United States and Yuri was immediately suspicious. The Russian government's explanation about who was behind the bombings. No government claims as this was done by kitchen. Terrorists what. I usually for people to believe because because it would have been the first time just a few years earlier. Chechens declared independence and Russia invaded Chechnya. In response in what became the first Chechen war the result hundreds of thousands of Chechen were either killed or leftists place but after the one thousand nine hundred nine bombings take place. It wasn't as easy to blame. Chechens because something strange happens in the town not not far from Moscow. Terse were arrested Wednesday were trying to foot explosive cintos Abasement Guan Guan of the apartment houses and this was immediate the broadcast by all mation. You Stations Zain Harsha. And when militia tried to investigate who those people are found out that our officers off say FSB and to Death Mormon the essential FSBA office in Moscow made a statement onset as uh spill not terrorists and indeed. This was an exercise conducted by the government It's the same day. Twenty seventh of September the Russian government started to bomb Grozny and actually started the second Chechen was a same day day and at that point. You're he had seen enough so we hopped on a plane to Russia to start investigating in person. Well fest full not a single person new houses. I I downsize Completely alone in absolute secrecy. You and I met many different people Some of them a happened to be a former KGB officers he started to suspect something big was going on that maybe Yeltsin and Putin saw political opportunity and all this His theory was that Yeltsin Putin. FSP were all conspiring to get Putin elected by manufacturing a war because remember it was going to be really difficult to get Putin elected. We did so. They needed a way to make them look heroic in presidential so Yuri thought that it was the FSBA who planted the bombs those apartment buildings and a Yeltsin and use as the fallout. As an excuse to start a second war with Chechen. And when I had general pitch or what's going on I approach the only person from there I be whom I you and who might trust Alexander Litvinenko. who was a high-ranking high-ranking FSBA officer a real insight I ask you one question nos useless plausible but in September of ninety nine at occur of officers will receive this order to blow up militants and was able to do this and litwin and the told me that Uh of course at I mean? I shouldn't have any doubts that gives this auto would be given then of course knows they will do it. The because goes up the Swazi. Too Quick side note live in Yengo was already in trouble with the government because a year before before he met Yuri he and some other. FSP officers went public with some damaging information about the FSP information that revealed deep corruption. As as a result he was arrested and later released and this was all when Putin was still the head of the F. S. B. C. The security services in Russia were tight knit group they did not tolerate dissent. Lengthy Yanko was clearly fed up enough so that he was willing to put himself and his family in danger to help prove what yeary suspected that Putin and the FSBA were behind apartment bombings so the stakes were high for Bianco and your new it and the left point I told him revile. We'll do consider escaping from Russia. Letting Yanko agreed so I picked him up when he crossed the border to torture the moment. I pick him up from Georgia and news at. He's alright his family of flew from Moscow to Malaga. I might some at Mollica M. Mollica to Torquay Mo- Flitwick Anka from Georgia to Torquay Anton Phil Stoff November. One months later he landed in London and executive six expires later on of November. Two thousand six he will spoiled radiation poisoning to be exact. It wasn't the first time the FSBA had poisoned the citizens even if they were living abroad Yuri eventually concluded that the FSP had perpetrated did more than one terror attack in Russia under Vladimir Putin's direct orders. All of this is detailed in the book he co authored with Litvinenko called blowing up Russia and we should be clear. There's some experts who dispute some of the specifics of Putin's alleged role in the bobby's but what's also true is that Putin has never ever deny any of the claims in the book and the fact remains that in the spring of two thousand Putin was elected to his first turn as president of Russia support for NPR comes from Newman's own foundation. Working to nourish the common good by donating all profits from Newman's own food products to charitable organizations nations. That seek to make the world a better place. More information is available at Newman's own foundation dot org part three. Go hard like Vladimir Putin like so. This is a real song by rap. Duo called A. M. G. and they're not. We might think of when you hear the words. Russian nationalist to experts from Zimbabwe and Kenya. Kenya moved to Moscow to study medicine in the early two thousands puts me in the music. Video is the best part part features a bunch of slow videos with Putin coming out of SUV walking down a hallway full of armed guards shaking hands of people tanks rolling down the street. The things on fire soldiers in combat makes Putin look like a real tough guy and that perception is everything to Putin. So it's no surprise that when he got real power. You're he set out to get rid of any doubts. He was fit to rule. No one would think of him as rodent like anymore The first thing that Putin does when he takes power very much ninety nine two thousand is take control of TV this is Peter Palmer of. He's a Russian born British journalist. Who Actually has a pretty unique perspective? He he worked as a TV producer in Russia in the two thousands and it was really by creating him into this sort of Macho Superhero and television and launching a a small very very deadly war in Chechnya he went from being The moth which apparently was his nickname in the security services to being kind of you know a mixture of Donald Trump and sly stallone and or them rolled into one and his assertions of power through stage. TV scenes and there's over the top pictures we we mentioned earlier. Well maybe Gan at home so they'll be bizarre scenes once a week where he would sort of confront the government said. You're already bad job. You you act the Gangsta Boston. These seeds you'd sit at the end of a long table by kid like Lucy. Liu and in what's it called again kill. Bill don't Kalyani Joanie Godfather and he sits the long tail. Say Hey I see you've got problem with With your with your good says you know to find another governor or I see so. You've got an unresolved labor dispute. Remember that story about the pen we open with Sean. That's basically what Putin was doing. They're flexing his muscles and a lot of people we'll say Putin is a Mafia don. I mean sorts of he knows how to work with the Mafia but it's much work as of him imitating that behavior because Russians respect gangsters gangsters been the heroes the nineteen nineties. They're the ones with the money and the women. It's pretty extraordinary. I mean to me me just doesn't with reporters I hear how he's grown over these years again. Andrew Meyer from you. Know a middling former lieutenant colonel in the KGB to to the man and you know a top Kremlin for all these years it's an extraordinary evolution and that's exactly the point Putin's rise was epic. He went from nobody in the early. One thousand nine hundred ninety s to the country's president by the end of the decade and he has a story that maybe embellished in the media. I mean he controls it but still. It's astonishing and this is story that resonates with a lot of Russians. I have right here which I use whenever I have to discuss something that is needed which is called on secure line. This is Margarita Simonian. She's the editor in chief of Rt.. which is an English language? News Channel. That's funded by the Russian government and it's seen by many as propaganda machine for the Kremlin. She was interviewed and NPR's morning edition a couple of years ago and that clip. You just heard she was talking about a special a phone line in her office that connects directly to the Kremlin and then she went onto describe. Why so many Russians revere Putin to understand Russia's Che's fascination about Putin and I think this is something that is completely not being understood in the West and in the mainstream media and the reason why it's not being stood is because people didn't live here through the nineties all of the people I knew wanted to leave because because we saw country? Something horrible fooling barred. That will only continue to fall apart and then came Putin and he stops all done mm-hmm and we saw it in our lives. People around started first of all. They stopped being hungry then. They stopped having want their shoes for both my sister and me you know and and my mom so for three of us normal shoes it all seemed aimed magic. And when I'm saying I want to underline this you would be an extremely difficult task to find a single person who lived worse before Putin than now very difficult skiing gene Mueller Vladimir Putin but he gets to see a really eastside presume more foolish it translates to eight about adjacent city morning Steve Skis. was that each villa in someone. That's it for this week show. I'm Romsey add up Louis. I'm Ron and you've been listening to line from NPR. The show was produced by run. Deny our team includes Jamie York. Jared Anna Hopman Marks Newroz Michelle. Land the Nigerian special. Thanks to Allison Machado. Jeff Rodgers and Jane Gilvan original music was produced the fine folks at drop electric. If you like something you heard or you have an idea. Please write us at through line at. MPR DOT ORG or hit us up on twitter at NPR MPR hope you enjoyed the show goodbye excludes by by what's the CODA again

President Vladimir Putin Russia Putin President Yeltsin gene Mueller Vladimir Putin NPR KGB Moscow president Saint Petersburg Russian government Soviet Union twitter US State Department Russia Chuck Yeltsin NPR Yeltsin NPR Station FSB
The Moth

Throughline

34:59 min | 1 year ago

The Moth

"Okay. We're going to take you back to two thousand nine for a minute to a meeting between President Vladimir Putin and a bunch of wealthy Russian factory owners which unwanted should use new balloon mobile issue, which moves yesterday as sick of reckoning. Trek on. But he is. Now, just imagine the scene who and whose voice were hearings sitting at the head of a long rectangular conference table. He's got on jeans and a windbreaker and guys in suits are sitting around that table hanging on his every word and the Russian press is there to capture it all Putin is asking the group. Why haven't you fixed this labor dispute yet you were running around and high quote like cockroaches before I get equals? And it's no accident that he's dragging them through the mud in front of the Russian press. This is a publicity stunt. So after scolding them like children's who makes them all sign a contract ordering them to reopen their factories any picks out one particular factory owner who again, no answer is a prominent Russian billionaire whose name by the way as come up several times in the Muller investigation. Oh, like AARP housecat. But but this'll did everyone sign this Chinese Pasqua. Have you signed? Yes. I have signed still Putin. Make therapy Housego get up out of his seat. Walk all the way around the table and sign the contract again. And as der Housego walks away in says, give me back my pen and makes their pasta walk all the way back over to hand it to him. Russia taken on a larger role on the World War Two. Marriages officially calling a Russian invasion of Ukraine pollution is preparing to extend his powerful grip into a third day, Freddie. Russia's longest serving leader since Soviet dictator. Joseph stalin. You're listening to through line from NPR. Will we go back in time? To understand the present. Hey, I'm Rhonda tash. I'm Romney Bluey. And on this episode decoding the power of Ladimir Putin. So that video we open with it. Honestly felt like I was watching a scene from a mobster movie. Yeah. I reporting pre much casts himself as a mob boss in that meeting. Like, he's he's really trying hard to portray himself as a tough guy too. That got us thinking how did Russia come to be run by this guy? Vladimir Putin today when you say Russia, you might as well be saying Putin because he's been running the country for nearly twenty years and on the one hand you have this over the top image of Putin, the mob, boss. The guy who writes shirtless on horseback or scuba dives for ancient treasures that. Of course. He always finds. And all of this is designed to make him seem unstoppable. Like some kind of JAMES BOND, you know, strong and suave and dare I say it even sexy. Okay. But this is Putin on display right is him posing. But then there's this other side of Putin as the protector of Russia the person who's restored Russia's standing in the world, the puppet master win Bates, countries and kills dissidents. So these images of Putin that we see how did they come to be? And how do they help him maintain power to answer those questions? We have to understand how he became the person. We see today kind of like a ghost of Christmas past for Vladimir Putin. Exactly, there's an international escape and Saint Petersburg a bombing conspiracy. And a reality TV makeover. Support for this podcast and the following message. Come from the great courses offering digital video series on the wisdom of history through thirty six lectures. Explore the people in defense that have shaped the world and the lessons that can be learned to avoid repeating past mistakes. The great courses has a special offer for through line listeners. Order a digital copy of the wisdom of history and get eighty five percent off the original price, a two hundred seventy five dollar savings to get this offer. Go to the great courses dot com slash through line. We all have an online south and sometimes that self can get us in real trouble. What did he think he was doing no opposed to the next week on visibility? Yeah. We've is it a city that blurs reality and online noise with life or death stakes? Part one the greatest gape. We're gonna start the story where bladder MIR Putin's career began in the Soviet Union's notorious intelligence service, the KGB. Dossey dolph a Robin junior and probably not face successful. How KGB facade Lucas he works for the economist? And was there Moscow bureau chief from nineteen ninety eight to two thousand two so Putin fresh out of law school was recruited to join the KGB way back in nineteen seventy five not a lot is known about that time in his life. But what we do know is that in nineteen eighty five. He was assigned to a post in a city in east Germany called Dresden Backwell. Oh, and that meant he was too far from the capital Berlin to experience all the exciting spy games that were playing out there during the height of the Cold War. It's clear that he ever ran any agent. Soul conducted any real espionage operations on the stump suggestion that he's being job was to be in country intelligence. His job was checking up on other people which is necessary, but rather unpopular job interpretation agencies instead five years trust and a total of sixteen years and the KGB all the while slowly working his way up the ladder doing the jobs necessary to get hit, but then in nineteen Ninety-one Soviet president Mikhail Gorbachev has been removed. Our from house arrest off to the failure of the August coup. Never recovered republics announced they are forming a separate Commonwealth of independent states. Russia the world came crashing down around. Yup. Most three working just months after an attempted coup Mikhail Gorbachev resigned from his position as president of the Soviet Union effectively Britain twin odds. You see e cars don't difference. Only the rush down the field, and you could been see Stony outcrops of real power. Suddenly the country went from having a centralized communist economy to something that was more privatized. It was a wildly unstable time for everyone in Russia. A free market emerged that was poorly managed and a breeding ground for corruption mobsters and other criminals took advantage of the instability and Russia's massive wealth was picked off by a few at the top amid all that a new leader came to power in Russia. His name Boris Yeltsin. RC tried to stabilize the Russian economy, but his methods were pretty shady Yeltsin's government more or less acted like the mafia. You do me a favor, I owe you return favor, later, etc. You know, good old fashioned corruption increasingly in the nineties. There was a picture of Russian politics as a kind of Byzantine court with all of these people with their new fortunes trying to get favors and influence decision. Making by the immediate circle around Yeltsin, this is Steve Sestanovich. He's a professor at Columbia University and was a top official in the US State Department during the Clinton administration. Now, I'm sure you're wondering where Putin ended up in all this chaos and the truth is it left him sort of disoriented. He'd been forced to move back to Russia with his young family. After the Berlin Wall fell his job with the KGB no longer existed because the KGB no longer exist. It went down with the Soviet Union. So his career plans were completely derailed. Eventually, though, Putin caught a break he got a job in his hometown Saint Petersburg as an advisor to one of his former law professors and mentors. Anatoly subject by that point subject had left, the university to become mayor of Saint Petersburg and sub Chuck deciding to take a chance on Putin pointed him deputy mayor of Saint Petersburg. This was Putin's training ground. It's where he learned how to play the game version politics, and he made it very clear he had higher ambitions than just running things behind the scenes in Saint Petersburg. Was when you're. This is a clip from the nineteen Ninety-two documentary that Putin commissioned about himself it's called power and in this scene. Putin is driving his is visible in the rear view mirror. Snow covered trees pass by outside of his window. And then he makes a bold admission that he was formerly a member of the KGB, which wasn't very popular a lot of people at the time. It was kind of a symbol of Russia's darkened pass for subject that was exactly why I wanted Putin on his team there are photographs. There are reminiscences recollections of people who say that Putin had the desk right in front of such and so subject, I think it's pretty clear wanted him there in a position of kind of a minder gatekeeper monitoring keeping an eye on who was coming in who was going out. There were a lot of skills that Putin's particular resume offered to subject the time skills like being a stealthy observer operating in the shadows. And. Meyer told us a story about that. He heard from an American diplomat back when Meyer was Moscow correspondent for time magazine in the nineteen nineties. He was always the guy at the reception in the corner often silent not drinking famous for not drinking and taking note, observing, and he said we called him the ghost because he was always present. But never really visible. Not to really understand Putin's rise to power. We have to understand the dynamics between his boss sub Chuck and Yeltsin who remember at this time is the president of Russia. It's a dramatic tale of two rivals who couldn't have been more different. Yeltsin was kind of the big bearish often clownish buffoon who would love to obviously drink shots with you. And was to king of bluster subject was everything the opposite, very measured and someone really that the west, and especially government officials lawyers business people could appreciate Yeltsin began to feel threatened by sub Chuck who wasn't a yes, man. He wanted. Plus Yeltsin worried that sub Chuck was becoming a potential position candidate might mess up his chances for reelection and the sub Chuck Yeltsin relationship Bloomington to an outright rivalry too. Subjects loyalty. Yeltsin summoned him to his office to ask him about reelection. Any very simply says, you know, what you think do you think I should run and subject, of course, gives the wrong answer. What does he say that? I'm not sure that this time, you should think about, you know, taking it easy. Maybe it's time to step down. Maybe it's time to think about your health. Maybe it's time to think about your family. And those those were the last words that Yeltsin wanted to hear. Sub Chuck had failed the test. And at that point Yeltsin, basically declared war on it began with legal cases it began with a lot of yellow journalism. He became a victim of tabloid highly sensationalised charges, flew almost daily. It was a drip, drip, drip, torture on subjects subjects name was mired in months of scandal. His reputation was in tatters. So when it came to his reelection bid for mayor, Saint Petersburg. He lost humiliated and facing a bunch of criminal investigations that may or may not have been politically motivated and could land him in prison. Subject was in serious trouble. But then one day in the middle of this chaos. Subject a man forbidden from leaving the country shows up in Paris in knows days. This was not something easy to pull off that a man who was officially wanted by rush. Intelligence Russian law enforcement, his own political rivals that he could just end up in Paris up chat has someone with special skills on his side Putin orchestrated this sort of fantastic escape he hired a range to hire through an intermediary a private jet from Finland brings it cross into Russian airspace gets sub Chuck on the plane, somehow they get across to Paris. And it's only fan when sub Chuck lands in Paris that the world funds out to in had basically done the impossible, and in the process proved just how clever and boil he could be and this event landed Putin on Yeltsin's radar. Eventually Yeltsin became so impressed with Putin that he gave them a position in his government. This is kind of strange, right? Like, why would Yeltsin choose to hire the guy who was his rival subjects per today. Whether a couple of things, I mean, one is it didn't matter that Yeltsin was behind the campaign to doom him, the fact that Putin came sort of writing it on the white horse to rescue is what resonated allowed us in Yeltsin's mind. Did he think maybe he'll do this for me one day because you know, Yeltsin's government was super corrupt, and he was quickly making enemies losing popularity. Yeah. There's no question that everyone at the time remembering the subject rescue and at the same time Yeltsin, not only physically infirm, but all kinds of legal questions surrounding his own regime. The threat not just of kind of a legal nightmare haunting Yeltsin, but even maybe something worse something like a coup against him clearly premium was on loyalty and Putin was the man who had that greatest experience showing loyalty. I wanna stop here for a second round teen because this whole subject episode in everything that happened after the collapse of the Soviet Union. It kind of feels like Putin was on the receiving end of all that like that. He was writing the wave and happened to end up on top. You're an way he was just kind of in the right place at the right time. I mean, it doesn't even feel like he's a main character in his own story of this is like an accident of history or something like his former mentor happened to become the mayor of Saint Petersburg. He happened to appoint him deputy mayor of Saint Petersburg. And ironically when subject fled Yeltsin took an interest in him, and he's lucky that Yeltsin even reacted that way. In fact, things keep getting better for Putin not long after Putin makes it to Moscow. He's appointed the head of the new intelligence service in Russia. The FSP also known as federal nyah Slough data Bezzaz, no St. Rossio square Feser arts. How do you do? Honestly, not that bad wouldn't stay great either. You know what? I mean, I would say maybe average more than I'd like. Anyway, the FSP's roll. Well, it's not all that different from the KGB which remember Putin had been a part of for a long time. So he was returning to very familiar territory on as the head of the F B. Putin began his stunning ascent to power. This message comes from NPR sponsor Cleveland Clinic. It's been two billion one hundred million heartbeats since Cleveland Clinic, performed the world's first modern coronary bypass surgery, which is just one of the reasons. Cleveland Clinic has been ranked number one in heart care in the nation for twenty four years, according to US news and World Report. But it doesn't stop there. New cardiovascular innovations are always being developed and tested at Cleveland Clinic for more information or to get a second opinion. Visit Cleveland Clinic dot org slash heart care. We may be on the verge of another sexual revolution. And this one we turn to machines for companionship and sex addicted DEA perfect companion, how art official intelligence and robots are changing the landscape of love this week on hidden brain. Partout Putin wax the dog. The year is nineteen ninety nine or is Yeltsin has been ruling over Russia for the last seven years or so but his health failing. He's just barely won reelection recently faced impeachment, and he's Elliott has parliament and government realizes. He can't hold onto power for long. But he also knows just how much has government has stolen from the Russian people. Russia's president son has done it again, second his entire government and plunging his country into crisis. And he's worried that the next president will try to hold him and his quote, unquote, family accountable. So he needs to find a successor who he can trust at who. Better than a guy would just a few years earlier took extreme measures to cover up for his boss and so- Yeltsin picks out of relative obscurity to be Russia's next prime minister hoping that if all goes, according to plan that's a big if he might become the next president. Push. It was really I think the lost desperate threat of the dice by the Yeltsin family because they were facing impeachments the Duma the Russian parliament was ready fed up with the way the country be Ron and they corruption of the Yeltsin in a circle again at Lucas several really going off to they tasted blood already. And so I think what happened was that the in family turned to Putin as a former KGB guy and say, can you fix this? But they still had a problem. Russia was a democracy. And so Putin had to be legitimately elected as president and at that point pretty much, no one inside Russia or outside Russia psalm as a potential world leader. I mean, people in the US State Department barely believe yet even been chosen as prime minister in the first place. I remember getting a call in the early morning from the State Department telling me that this had been the President Yeltsin's choice, and you know. I laughed out loud. The idea that this seeming nobody could be a appointed prime minister of the Russian federation was astonishing to me and my colleagues, but one thing we were pretty sure of was this guy wasn't gonna last at this point get this is a mate sense for outsiders. Putin's rise came out of nowhere. And it didn't seem like he'd last cease Asana bitch told us about the first time he met Putin when he was working in the State Department during the Clinton years he was then very new on the job. He was very unsure of himself hesitant. But ingratiating he obviously wanted to make a good impression on the president of the United States. He was clearly very conscious of being not only a newcomer to high politics but much shorter than Bill Clinton, and you could tell just the physical presence of made him somewhat uncomfortable. And what had Clinton think of him? I mean Clinton afterwards said he liked him. He said he's so Russian. I remember being a little surprised by this because I could tell what Putin was trying to do was not same Russian. He was trying to seem German competent impressive professional in contrast to Yeltsin Clinton was used to dealing with. I also told Madeleine Albright after the meeting that he seemed to me a little rodent like, you know, a small animal with a big nervous beating ours. But you know, the next time we saw the next time. I saw him. Well, we'll get to that. Let's just say he doesn't seem rodent like for long. See the thing that most people didn't realize the time was that Yeltsin and were willing to do anything to get him elected. It's a devastating scene. The whole mid section of the building is gone all that left or some parliaments are decorative rugs on speculation that the explosion was not an accident death, delivering this city's still talk to searching frogs plan out a series of bombs go off and apartment buildings across Moscow. An apartment woman couple of seats. But of course, more score was the most important one with us two hundred plus people were killed and more than thousand injured. Yes. Cry this assu UNIFIL teen ski, I'm a historian. I was born in our Ashra moved to the United States, and it was immediately suspicious of the Russian government's at Spanish in about who was behind the bombings. No the government claims as this was done by Chechen terrorists. What was very easy for people to believe because because it wouldn't have been the first time just a few years earlier Kachins declared independence and Russia invaded Chechnya in response in what became the first catch in war. The result. Hundreds of thousands of Chechens were either killed or leftist place. But after the nineteen ninety nine bombings take place. It wasn't as easy to blame. Chechen because something strange happens. In the town, not far from Moscow terse were arrested when they were trying to foot explosive cintas abasement of Guan of the apartment houses. And this was emitted the broadcast by all major new stations in Russia, and when militia tried to investigate who's people are found out that the officers of the F B. And at that moment say essential FSB office in most goal might statements at us people are not terrorists. And in dates. This was an exercise conducted by the government. It's the same day twenty set of September. There are some common started to bomb Grozny and actually started the second Chechen was a same day and at that point Yuri had seen enough. So we hopped on a plane to Russia to start investigating in person. Well, fell still full not a single vessel knew about this. I down this completely alone in absolute secrecy. And I met many different people. Some of them happen to be a former KGB officers. He started suspect something big was going on that may be Yeltsin and Putin saw political opportunity and all this his theory was that Yeltsin Putin and the F SP were all conspiring to Putin elected by manufacturing war because remember it was going to be really difficult to get elected. So they needed a way to make them look heroic in presidential. So Yeary thought that it was the FSB planted the bombs in those apartment buildings and a Yeltsin. And use the fallout as an excuse to start a second war with the Chechens. And when I head general picture over what's going on. I abroad the only person from there. I be whom I knew and who might trust Alexander Litvinenko who was a high-ranking SP officer a real insider, I ask you one question of as possible, but in September of ninety nine at girl full of service to receive this order to blow up Bilton and weather zave doses. And Lithuanian told his at of course, at I mean, I shouldn't not have any doubts that this ought of would be given. Then of course knows I will do it. Because at fests was eighty two. Quick living Yengo was already in trouble with the government because a year before he met Yuri. He and some other FSP officers went public with some damaging information about the FSB information that revealed deep corruption as a result he was arrested and later released, and this was all when Putin was still the head of the F S B C the security services in Russia were tight knit group that did not tolerate the sent a lengthy Inca was clearly fed up enough. So that he was willing to put himself and his family in danger to help prove what Yuri suspected that Putin and the FSB were behind the apartment bombings. So the stakes are high for Bianco and urine knew it and the left point I told him, well, we'll do consider escaping from Russia. Leppin yanko. Agreed. So I picked him up across the border to torture. The moment. I pick him up from Georgia and news at he's. Alright his family flew from Moscow Tamala, I might some at Mallika moves from Malaga to Turkey of latrine Anka from Georgia to Torquay Anton fell stuff November one months later here at London and executive six years later on fest of November two thousand six. He will spoil. Radiation poisoning to be exact it wasn't the first time. The FSP had poisoned the since even if they were living abroad. Yuri eventually concluded that the FSP had perpetrated more than one terror attack in Russia under Vladimir Putin's direct orders all of this is detailed in the book. He co authored with Littman yet go called blowing up Russia, and we should be clear. There's some experts who dispute some of the specifics of Putin's alleged role in the bombings. But what's also true that Putin has never denied any of the claims of the book, and the fact remains that in the spring of two thousand Putin was elected to his first turn as president of Russia. This message comes from NPR sponsor. Comcast business. Business has always been driven by innovators entrepreneurs and disrupters. That's why the company who built the nation's largest gig speed network is moving beyond beyond connecting your business to helping you with technology that provides better experiences. Comcast business beyond fast. Visit Comcast business dot com for more. Part three go hard like mere Putin. Body. Go. So this is a real song by rap duo called A M G, not you might think of when you hear the words Russian nationalist to experts from Zimbabwe Kenya. Move to Moscow to study medicine in the early thousands. The music video is the best part. If features a bunch of slow MO videos, Putin coming out of V walking down a hallway full armed guards shaking hands of people tanks rolling down the street things on buyer soldiers in combat it makes Putin look like a real tough guy and that perception is everything Putin. So it's no surprise that. When he got real power. He set out to get rid of any doubts. He was fit to rule. No one would think of him as road unlike anymore. The first thing that Poussin does when he sort of takes power and months ninety nine two thousand it's taken troll of TV. This is Peter Palmer of he's a Russian born British journalist who actually has a pretty unique perspective he worked as a TV producer in Russia in the two thousands. And it was really by creating him into this sort of much superhero television and launching a small very very deadly war in Chechnya. He went from being. The moth, which apparently was his nickname in the security services to being kind of a mixture of Donald Trump and sliced alone and all of them rolled into one. And his assertions of power through state TV scenes. Those over the top pictures, we mentioned earlier, well they began at home. So they'll be bizarre scenes once week where he would sort of confront the government said you'll dig already bad joke. You act the gangsta boss in these scenes sit at the end of a long table by Lucy Liu. What's it called again? Kill bill. Don't call Yoni. Godfather, any sits the piece of saints long table say, hey, I see you've got problem with with your with your it says to find another governor or that an unresolved labor dispute. Remember that story about the pen we open with finish. That's basically what in was doing. They're flexing his muscles. And a lot of people say Putin is a mafia Don, I mean, sort of he knows how to work with the mafia, but it's much more case of him imitating that behavior because Russians respect gangsta gangsta said the heroes of the nineteen ninety s they're the ones with the money and the women. It's pretty extraordinary to me. Just doesn't reporters I on air how he's grown over these years again Andrew Meyer from, you know, a middling former Lieutenant Colonel in the KGB to the man, you know, top the Kremlin for all. These years is extraordinarily of Lucien. And that's exactly the point Putin's rise was epic. He went from a nobody in the early nineteen nineties to the country's president by the end of the decade. And he has a story that maybe embellished in the media. I mean, he controls it, but still astonishing, and it's a story that resonates with a lot of Russians I have a phone right here, which I use whenever I have to discuss something that is needed which is called on secure line. This is Marguerite seem on yawn. She's the editor in chief RT, which is an English language. News channel that's funded by the Russian government. And it's seen by many as the propaganda machine for the Kremlin. She was interviewed on NPR's morning edition a couple years ago in that clip, you just heard she was talking about a special phone line in her office that connects directly to the Kremlin. And then she went onto describe why so many Russians revere Putin to understand Russia's fascination about Putin. And I think this is something that is completely not being understood in the west and in the mainstream media, and the reason why it's not being understood. Is because people didn't live here through the nineties all of the people I knew wanted to leave because we saw country as something horrible falling apart that will only continue to fall apart and then team Putin and he stops hold on. And we saw it in our lives. People around started first of all they stopped being hungry, then they stopped having want of shoes for both my sister, and me, and my mom so for three of us one of normal shoes, it all seemed magic. And when I'm saying I want to underline this. You would be an extremely difficult task to find a single person who lived worse before Putin than now, very difficult. Your. Genia relied team sports. But he gets really side. More. Translate through restaurant. It's. Was that interesting zella in women? That's it for this week show. I'm Romsey Louis. I'm Rhonda and you've been listening to through line from NPR. The show was produced by run deny our team includes Jamie York, Jared, Anna, men marts newer. Michelle, lance. Niger? Special. Thanks to Alison Tatham. Jeff Rodgers and Jane Gilvan original music was produced by the fine folks at drop lecture, if you like something you heard or you have an idea police rightous through line at MPR dot org or hit us up on Twitter at MPR through lie. Hope you enjoyed the show. Goodbye goodbye. By what's the code again?

President Vladimir Putin Russia President Yeltsin KGB president Yeltsin Clinton Moscow Chuck Yeltsin NPR Russia Saint Petersburg Russia Soviet Union Rhonda tash Saint Petersburg AARP Joseph stalin US State Department Ukraine FSP
#966: The Rise Of Putin

Planet Money

28:33 min | 8 months ago

#966: The Rise Of Putin

"This is planet money from NPR. Last week Vladimir Putin was on stage giving his his annual state of the Nation Address he proposed a few constitutional changes give lots of new powers to a previously minor. State Council give more power to parliament to choose cabinet ministers close the loop hole that allows a president to serve for more than two terms as long as they're not consecutive and each of these proposals on their own might might sound fairly moderate but the Russian prime minister who was once actually a close Putin ally immediately resigned taking his entire cabinet with him. And that's shocking news even for Russia. That's because these proposals taken together are not moderate tweaks. They actually pave away for Vladimir Putin to continue to run the country maybe for life so we at planet money thought now would be an excellent time to rebroadcast episode on the early years of Ladimir. Putin it's by our friends at NPR's history podcast through line here. It is okay. We're going to take you back to two thousand nine for a minute to a meeting. Between President President Vladimir Putin and a bunch of wealthy Russian factory owners which were introduced nugatory which moves us it now just imagine the scene who and whose voice rehearing sue sitting at the head of a long rectangular conference table. He's got on jeans and a windbreaker. Our guys in suits are sitting around that table hanging on his every word and the Russian press is there to capture it. All Putin is asking the group. Why haven't you fix this labor dispute yet? You were running around and high quote like cockroaches before I came Corpus and it's no accident that he's dragging them through the mud in front of the Russian press. This is a publicity stunt after scolding them like children who makes them all sign a contract ordering them to reopen factories and he picks out one particular factory owner owner who again no action is a prominent Russian billionaire whose name by the way has come up several times in the investigation. Oleg Der Pao Ska to do that but did everyone signed this unusual to have have you signed. Yes I have signed still Putin makes therapist get up out of his seat. Walk all the way around the table and sign the contract again and der Pao SCO walks away says could give me back my pen and makes therapath Ska walk all the way back over to hand it to him. Hey I'm Ron Louis and on this episode decoding the power of Vladimir Putin So that video we opened with it honestly felt like I was watching a scene from a mobster movie be. Yeah it'd be Putin pretty much. CAST himself as a mob boss in that meeting like he's he's really trying hard to portray himself as a tough guy too. That got US thinking. How did Russia come to be run by the Sky Vladimir Putin today when you say Russia you might as well be saying Putin? Because he's been running the country for nearly twenty years and on the one hand you have this over the top image of Putin the mob boss the Guy who writes shirtless on horseback or scuba dives for ancient treasures. That of course he always finds and all of this is designed designed to make him. Seem unstoppable so these images of Putin that we see how did they come to be and how do they help him. Maintain power to answer those questions. We we have to understand how he became the person we see today. kind of like a ghost of Christmas past for Vladimir Putin exactly there's an international escape and Saint Petersburg a bombing conspiracy and a reality TV makeover planet. Money has a newsletter straight straight to your inbox. It's just the right amount of economics weekly go to NPR dot org slash planet money newsletter part. One the greatest gape. We're GONNA start the story. Where Bladder Mir Putin's career it began in the Soviet Union's notorious intelligence service the KGB? She started off as a Robin Junior. And probably not very successful school. KGB This is Edward Lucas. He worked for the Economist and was there. Moscow bureau chief from Nineteen Ninety eight to two thousand two so Putin fresh out of law all school was recruited to join the KGB way back in nineteen seventy five not. A lot is known about that time in his life but what we do know. Is that in one thousand nine hundred eighty five. He was assigned to a post in a city in east. Germany called Dresden backwater and that meant he was too far from the capital Berlin to experience all the exciting spy. The games that were playing out there during the height of the Cold War and it's not clear that he ever ran. Any agent soil conducted any real espionage operations. I'm there's some suggestion that he's main boost to be in country intelligence. His job was checking up on other people which is necessary but often rather unpopular job in intelligence agencies sues Putin spent five years in Dresden and a total of sixteen years in the KGB all the while slowly working his way up the ladder doing the jobs necessary to get ahead but then in nineteen ninety-one the world came crashing down around him. Yup boast three walkway just months. External attempted coup Mikhail Gorbachev resigned from his position as president of the Soviet Union effectively. Bring into an EC- teach US your car door. It was only have done and you could see the kind of stony outcrops of real power. Suddenly suddenly the country went from having a centralized communist economy to something that was more privatized. It was a wildly unstable time for everyone. In Russia a Free Market Arkadi merged that was poorly managed and breeding ground for corruption. Mobsters and other criminals took advantage of the instability and Russia's massive wealth was picked off by a few at the top top amid all that a new leader came to power in Russia his name. Boris Yeltsin Gosden. Yeah I tried to stabilize belies. The Russian economy but his methods were Pretty Shady Yeltsin's government more or less acted like the Mafia. You do me a favor. I owe you return the favor later etc you know good old fashioned corruption increasingly in the nineties. There was a picture of Russian politics as a kind of Byzantine in teen court with all of these people with their new fortunes trying to get favors and influence decision making and by the immediate circle around Yeltsin. This is Steve Sestanovich. He's a professor at Columbia. University was a top official in the US State Department during the Clinton administration solution now. I'm sure you're wondering where Putin ended up in all this chaos and the truth is it left. Him Sort of disoriented. He'd been forced to move back to Russia with his young. Mm family after the Berlin Wall fell his job with the KGB no longer existed because the KGB no longer existed it went down with the Soviet Union so his career plans plans were completely derailed. Eventually though Putin caught a break he got a job in his hometown Saint Petersburg as an advisor to one of his former law professors and mentors Anatoly Sobchak. By that point such could left the university to become mayor of Saint Petersburg and sub chuck deciding to take take a chance on Putin appointed him. Deputy Mayor of Saint Petersburg. This was Putin's training ground. It's where he learned how to play the game of Russian politics and he made it very clear. He had higher ambitions than just running things behind the scenes in Saint Petersburg. Look this is a clip from the nineteen. ninety-two documentary that Putin commissioned about himself it's called power and in this scene Putin is driving Ding. His is visible in the rear view mirror. Snow covered trees pass by outside of his window and then he makes a bold admission that he was formerly a member of the KGB. It wasn't very popular for a lot of people at the time it was kind of a symbol of Russia's dark past but for subject that was exactly why he wanted Putin on his team There are photographs. There are reminiscences recollections of people who say that Putin had the desk right in front of Chuck and so subject. I think it's pretty clear wanted him. They're in a position of kind of a minder. Gatekeeper monitoring keeping an eye on. who was coming in? Who was going out? There were a lot of skills. Is that Putin's particular resume offered to subject at the time skills like being a stealthy observer operating in the shadows Andrew. Meyer told does the story about Putin that he heard from an American diplomat back when Meyer was Moscow correspondent for Time magazine in the nineteen nineties. He was always the guy at the reception in the the corner often silent not drinking famous for not drinking and taking note observing and he said we call them the ghost because he was always present but never really visible not to really understand Putin's rise to power. We have to understand the dynamics between his boss subject and Yeltsin. Who Remember at this? Time is the president of Russia. It's a dramatic tale of two rivals. Who couldn't have been more different? Yeltsin was it's kind of the big bearish often clownish buffoon who would love to Obviously drink shots with you and was to King Bluster. Subject was everything the opposite Very measured and someone really that the West and especially government government officials lawyers business. People could appreciate Yeltsin began to feel threatened by sub chuck. who wasn't a yes man? He wanted plus Yeltsin Yeltsin worried. That subject was becoming. A potential. Opposition candidate might mess up his chances for reelection and the sub Chuck Yeltsin Relationship Bloomington to an outright rivalry to test subjects. Loyalty Yeltsin summoned him to his office to ask him about reelection and he very simply Lee says what do you think. Do you think I should run. And subject of course gives the wrong answer. What does he say that? I'm not sure that this time you should think about you. Know taking it easy. Maybe it's time to step down. Maybe it's time to think about your health. Maybe think about your family and those those were the last words that Yeltsin wanted to hear the subject had failed the test and at that point Yeltsin basically declared war on him it began with legal cases. It began with a lot of yellow journalism awesome He became a victim of tabloid highly sensationalised. Charges flew almost daily. It was a drip drip drip torture. Churn on subjects subjects name was mired in months of scandal. His reputation was in tatters so when it came to his reelection bid for mayor of Saint Petersburg he lost humiliated and facing a bunch of criminal investigations. That may or may not have been politically motivated and could land him in prison. Subject was in serious trouble but then one day in the middle of this chaos subject. A man forbidden from leaving the country shows up in Paris in those days. This was not something easy to pull off that a man who was officially wanted by Russian intelligence into action law enforcement His own political rivals that he could just end up in Paris by subject. Had someone with special skills on inside Putin orchestrated this sort of fantastic escape. He hired or range to hire through an intermediary a a private jet from Finland brings it across into Russian. Airspace gets sub chuck on the plane. Somehow they get across to Paris and it's only one sub chuck lands in Paris that the world finds out who had basically done the impossible and in the process proved just how clever and loyal he could be. And this event landed poten on Yeltsin's radar. Eventually Yeltsin became so impressed with Putin. They gave him a position in his government. This is kind of strange right like what I would Yeltsin. Choose to hire the guy who was his rival subjects per day. Whether a couple of things I mean one is it didn't matter the Yeltsin was behind the campaign To doom him the fact that Putin came riding in on the white horse to rescue is what resonated allowed us in Yeltsin's mind. They think maybe he'll do this for me one day. Because you know Yeltsin's government was super corrupt. He was quickly making enemies losing popularity yeah. There's no question that everyone at the time remembering the sub shop rescue and at the same time Yeltsin not only physically infirm but all kinds of legal questions surrounding his own own regime The threat not just of kind of a legal nightmare haunting Yeltsin but even maybe something worse something like a coup against him. mm-hmm clearly premium was on loyalty and Putin was the man who had that greatest experience showing loyalty and way he was just kind of in the right right place at the right time. I mean doesn't even feel like he's a main character in his own story of this is like an accident of history or something like his former mentor happened. To become the mayor of Saint Petersburg he happened to appoint him deputy mayor of Saint Petersburg and ironically when subject fled. Yeltsin took an interest in him and he's lucky. Lucky that Yeltsin reacted that way. In fact things keep getting better for Putin not long after Putin makes it to Moscow. He's appointed the head of the new intelligence service in Russia. The the F. S. B. also known as Federal Nyah Sloughs by Belva Nasty Rossio Square Feraluzi the. FSB's roll well it's not all that different from the KGB which remember Putin had been a part of for a long time so he was returning to very familiar territory and as the head of the F. S. Putin began his stunning a set to power This message comes from NPR sponsor. American Express Save More with a high yield personal savings account from American Express earner rate. That's over ten times the National AP WI with no minimum balance open an online account. Today Ed Personal Savings Dot com terms apply. The indicator is a little show that tells big stories about the economy in just ten minutes. We tackle tackled important. Topics like unemployment housing market and how Justin Bieber seve the Icelandic economy that happened. NPR's the indicator from planet money. Listen now part to Putin wags the dog. The year is nineteen ninety nine. Boris Yeltsin has been ruling over Russia for the last seven years or so but his health is failing. He's just barely won. Reelection recently faced impeachment treatment and he's alienated his parliament and government. He realizes he can't hold onto power for long but he also knows just how much government has stolen from the Russian people and he's worried that the next president will try to hold him and his quote unquote family accountable so he needs to find a successor Sir who he can trust and who better than a guy who just a few years earlier took extreme measures to cover up for his boss and so- Yeltsin picks Putin out of relative obscurity eighty to be Russia's next prime minister hoping that if all goes according to plan and that's a big if he might become the next president Putin was really. I think the last desperate throwing the dice by the Yeltsin family because they were facing impeachments. The Duma the Russian parliament was ready. Eighty fed up with the way the country be wrong and the corruption of the Yeltsin inner circle again Edward Lucas. Several really going off to him. They tasted blood already. And so I think what happened. Was that the Yeltsin family turned to Puccini former. KGB Guy and say can you fix this but they still had a problem problem. Russia was a democracy and so Putin had to be legitimately elected as president and at that point pretty much no one inside Russia or outside Russia Psalm home as a potential world leader. I mean people in the. US State Department could barely believe yet even been chosen as prime minister in the first place. I remember getting a call in the early morning being From the State Department telling me that this had been the President Yeltsin's choice and you know I. I laughed out loud. I I mean the idea that this seeming nobody could be appointed. Prime Minister of the Russian Federation was astonishing to me and my colleagues but one thing we were pretty sure of was. This guy wasn't GonNa last at this point that skepticism meet sense for outsiders. Putin's rise came out of nowhere anywhere and it didn't seem like he'd last cease Asana. Mitch told us about the first time he met WHO and when he was working in the State Department during the Clinton years he was then very renew on the job. He was very unsure of himself hesitant but ingratiating he obviously wanted to make a good impression on the president. The United States He was clearly very conscious of being not only a newcomer to high politics but much shorter than bill. Bill Clinton and you could tell just the physical presence of Clinton made him somewhat uncomfortable. And what did Clinton think of him I mean Clinton Clinton afterwards said he liked him. He said he's so Russian. I remember being a little surprised by this because I could tell what Putin was trying to do was not seem Russian. He was trying to seem German competent impressive professional. In contrast to Yeltsin. Listen whom Clinton was used to dealing with. I also told Madeleine Albright after the meeting that he seemed to me a little rodent like you know a small animal with a big nervous beating the next time. We saw him the next time they saw him. Well we'll get to that. Let's just say he doesn't seem vote. It like for long. See The thing that most people didn't realize the time was that Yeltsin and Putin were willing to do anything to get him elected. It's a devastating scene. The whole mid section of the building is gone. All that's left. After some apartments are decorative rugs on there has been much speculation that the explosion was not an accident but was deliberate city terrorist attack back and brush security for searching all suspects. Your plan story out the bottom southern Amish. Such a series of bombs go off in apartment Armand buildings across Moscow then symbols apartment. Boom is a couple of seats but of course wall score was the most important one with us else Two hundred plus people were killed and more than a thousand were injured. Yes Sky This Sui I'm a historian I was born in. Russia moved to the United States and year. He was immediately suspicious. The Russian government's explanation about who was behind the bombings. No the government claims as this was done by Chechen terrorists What tools very easy for people to believe because because it wouldn't have been the first time just a few years earlier? Chechens declared independence and Russia invaded. Chechnya Nia in response in what became the first Chechen war. The result hundreds of thousands of Chechens were either killed or leftists place but after the one thousand nine hundred nine bombings take place. It wasn't as easy to blame. Chechens because something strange in the town not not far from Moscow. Tourists were arrested. Wednesday will try to foot explosive. cintos abasement all Glon of the apartment houses and this was emitted the broadcast by all mation. You stations is in Russia and when militia tried to investigate who those people are they found out that the author of the FSB and Exert Mormon the central FSB office in Moscow made a statement mindset as those people not terrorists and indeed. This was an exercise conducted by the government. It's the same day. Twenty set of September the Russian government started to bomb Grozny and actually started the second Chechen was the same day day and at that point. You're he had seen enough so we hopped on a plane to Russia to start investigating in person. Well still not a single bilsel knew about this. I downs Completely alone in absolute secrecy. And I'm met many different people Some of them them happen to be a former KGB officers. He started to suspect that something big was going on that maybe Yeltsin and Putin saw political opportunity. All this his theory was that Yeltsin Putin. FSB were all conspiring to get Putin elected by manufacturing a war because remember it was going to be really difficult to get Putin elected acted and so they needed a way to make them look heroic in presidential so Yuri thought that it was the FSBA who planted the bombs in those apartment buildings and that Yeltsin and Putin used use the fallout as an excuse to start a second war with the Chechens. Yuri eventually concluded that the FSBA had perpetrated more than one terror attack in Russia under nerve. Ladimir Putin's direct orders. All of this is detailed in the book. He Co authored caught blowing up Russia and we should be clear. There is some experts who dispute some of the specifics of Putin's alleged role in the bombings. But what's also true is that Putin has never denied any of the claims in the book and the fact remains is that in the spring of two thousand Putin was elected to his first turn as president of Russia. Par-three go hard like Vladimir Putin poteen. So this is a real song by rap. Duo called A. M. G.. Not We might think of when you hear the words Russian nationalist to pass from Zimbabwe Kenya. Who moved to Moscow to study medicine in the early two thousands in the music video is the best part it features a bunch of slow Mo.? Oh videos with Putin coming out of SUV walking down a hallway full of armed guards shaking hands of people tanks rolling down the street things on fire soldiers in combat. It makes me feel and look like a real tough guy and that perception is everything to Putin. So it's no surprise that when he got real power he set out to get rid of any doubts he he was fit to rule. No one would think of as road and like anymore The first thing that Vladimir Putin does when he takes power in lunch one thousand nine hundred thousand is it's take control of TV. This is Peter Palmer of. He's a Russian born British journalist. Who Actually has a pretty unique perspective? He worked as a TV producer in Russia in the two two thousand and it was really by creating him into this sort of Macho Superhero and television and launching a small very very deadly war in Chechnya he went from being The moth which apparently was his nickname in the security services to being kind of you know a a mixture of Donald Trump and sly stallone and all of them rolled into him him and his assertions of power through stage. TV scenes and those over the top pictures. We mentioned earlier well they. They began at home bizarre scenes once week where he would sort of confronted his own government. Said you're doing a really bad job. ACT THE GANGSTA BOSTON. These seeds you'd sit at the end of a long table by Lucy. Liu and in in what's it called again kill. Bill Don't Call Yoni Godfather and he sits the Seattle pieces loan table. Say Hey I see you've got problem with with your with your audiences to find another governor or I see you've got an unresolved labor dispute. Remember that story about the pen we open station. That's basically what Putin was doing. They're flexing his muscles and a lot of people say Putin is a Mafia don of sorts of he knows how to work with the Mafia. But it's much work as of him imitating that behavior because the Russians respect gangsters gangsters had been the heroes of the Nineteen Ninety S. They're the ones with the money and the women. It's pretty extraordinary. I mean to me just doesn't reporters I hear hear how he's grown over these years again. Andrew Meyer from you. Know a middling former lieutenant colonel in the KGB to the man and you know atop the Kremlin almond for all these years. It's an extraordinary evolution. And that's exactly the point. Putin's rise was epic. He went from nobody in the early. Nineteen ninety s to the country's president president by the end of the decade and has a story that maybe embellished in the media. I mean he controls it but still. It's astonishing this story that resonates with Qalat of Russia's Viji Mueller related sporting gets really. He said That's it for this week show. I'm Romsey out of Louis I'm Rhonda Data and you've been listening to through line from NPR. The show show was produced by run. Deny our team includes Jamie York. Jerry ANAHUAC man Lawrence Woo Noor was was Michelle Land Day. Okay smiling Nigerian and a special thanks to Alison macadam Jeff Rodgers and Jiang yielding. Original Music was produced by the fine folks. It's at drop electric. If you like something you heard or you have an idea. Please write us at through line at. MPR DOT ORG or hit us up on twitter at MPR through line live. Hope you enjoyed the show that was. NPR's history podcast through line published today through planet. Money this is NPR. Thank you for listening.

President President Vladimir P Russia President Yeltsin Putin Vladimir Putin president KGB Moscow NPR Saint Petersburg US Chuck Yeltsin prime minister Russia Nineteen Ninety Soviet Union Boris Yeltsin Gosden US State Department Ron Louis therapath Ska
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"You're listening to the globalist first broadcast on the thirty first of July two, thousand and twenty on multiple twenty, four, the globalist in association with UBS. This is the globalist coming to you live from MIDORI host in. London. I'm Georgina Godwin on the show ahead often described as Europe's last dictatorship, we look at the political saga unfolding in Belarus President Alexander Lukashenko looks to seal his six term in office. We ask what Russian mercenaries might have to do with it plus not your usual birthday greetings this week. The Thai king's birthday was dominated not by well-wishes but by protesters in the streets from Bangkok to Berlin, we'll get the latest from up Bankok correspondent. Also on the program, it will be a campaign that is likely to be a team effort a group of people as by Dennis himself said that looks like the country and not exclusively candidacy is about him alone. We get granular on the top picks Joe Biden's running mate plus in happy and use for the United States. We learned of an end to one of the sillier diplomatic spats in recent history. Harris us. To, South Korea shaved off his Moustache Monaco's Andrew Miller is back with the things he's learnt from this week's new cycle with a look through the papers on the latest business news. That's all ahead here on the globalist live from London. I look at what else is happening in the News Donald. Trump. Has suggested postponing the US presidential poll an idea which was immediately ridiculed by both Democrats and Republicans in Congress the only body which can make such a decision. Philippine. President Rodrigo Deter Tae has extended coronavirus restrictions in the capital Manila until mid August, and the European Union has impose travel and financial sanctions on a department of Russia's military intelligence service and on firms from north. Korea and China over there suspected participation in major. Attacks across the world. Do Stay tuned to monocle twenty four throughout the day for more on those stories. But I the president of Belarus Alexander Lukashenko has demanded an explanation from Russia after Belarussian security forces detained thirty alleged Russian mercenaries near Minsk after receiving information that more than two hundred militia had entered the country to destabilize it ahead of the election on August the Ninth Lukashenko's is expected to win a sixth term, but he's facing some unusual opposition well on the line from London is a culture of who is a country risk analyst with a focus on eastern Europe Alex. thanks for joining us and can you explain the relationship and background between? And, Belarus. Good, morning. Yes. Absolutely. Bellarusse is linked to Russia by multiple political military and economic agreements since the nineteen nineties after Lukashenka came to power in Belarus in one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety, four, he initially was actually I the Russian throne. Remember it was the time of the ailing President Yeltsin. who had multiple health issues was agent very quickly and people thought that very young and energetic Lukashenka could potentially be his successor in Moscow but obviously, everything changed in two thousand one. Vladimir Putin became Russian president but still both countries are linked a lot and Russia fundamentally supports Belarus economically by providing cheaper energy sources. So why would Russia's send in militias the Wagner Group? If indeed, that is what happened I, mean some say that this may just be a publicity stunt by Lukashenko. All. I do not think that this is. A genuine event of Russia trying to cause some destabilization in Belarus What is most likely have happened is an attempt to stage a show which by Lukashenko John and the Kremlin as well because the Kremlin is playing the part here in order to co Earth. Belarussian. Citizens to vote for. Lukashenka otherwise. Lukashenko would say, look you know Putin is going to send his. Armed men into Belarus and and remember what happened to Ukraine and twenty fourteen. Let's turn to the election. Now, can you tell us about the status of the opposition? Absolutely, it's a very unusual and unexpected election back in May when when the election was announced everyone expected a very smooth sailing for Lukashenka very much a repeat of swing to fifteen election way he would be fundamentally run on imposed but here we had a number of people coming out and proposing van candidacies for the election of those people were mostly prevented from actually a getting onto the ballots, some of them have been arrested. And this Prominent Bank, Victor Barika but also prominence youtube blogger said Haiti canot skin but in an unusual twist with. She's wife's planner decided to run in his place, and now she is the most formidable challenger to President Lukashenka in the past twenty six years, which is absolutely unexpected to everyone and I, mean, she does seem to be a very impressive candidate and she's pulled together a coalition. What's her background I? Mean? She would appear to just being a housewife yes. She's complete novice in politics she started illusion. German it's university and then worked as a translator an interpreter but recently she was focusing on home life her children and she was very much in the shadows. BOOT's when the event of the propelled her to the national stage she. has demonstrated that cheese of Pfizer she continued to she continues with how campaign despite threats including against her family and children she had to move her children out of the country to to to avoid the threats But what is unexpected here is she was probably allowed to be added to the ballots A. To be registered as a candidate because President Lukashenka didn't see her as a threat. What happened She actually became the biggest challenge to him Look. I didn't see her the thread because she's a woman. She's she doesn't have experienced in politics. But campaigns of other candidates who had been excluded from the race join forces with her because all of them have the same goal to remove Lukashenka from Bauer and to stage a free and fat election very soon said Lima said that she doesn't want to be president for the full term she she wants to oversee a transition to democratic society by holding another election, which would be free fat and open to all alternative candidates within the next six months and then she would step down. To the person who would be elected in such three and fire election but she's also being accused of being a Russian stooge. Is there any truth in that? I'm highly skeptical of that I think that's her husband generally has relatively favorable views of Russia The have been reports that he visited Crimea, which is sponsored. By Borussia. Since two thousand, fourteen but I seriously doubt that she's Russian. Assets and that. She her husband would. Act in the interest of Moscow I, think what what both of them are trying to do is to act in the interest of people. Belarus. is there any possibility that that she might win that Lukashenko could be defeated and if so would he step aside or would he call in the military as has been hinted at? I think what is going to happen on tenth August on Monday immediately after the election dates. Is The central Allege Election Commission will probably declare Lukashenka a winner. We know that Belarus elections are corrupt surprised by high degree of voting irregularities, and this is what's likely to happen. But I think this time round majority of voters will know that's this election was really stolen from them and I think events after the election will be crucial I think. We might see a repeat of what happened in Ukraine in year two, thousand, four when Janda Kovic was declared the winner of victory which was. Declared winner that's election but then because of the protests and continued Continued, resistance by the people another election was held and he actually lost. So think events after the election will be really crucial to watch I mean really light at the end of the tunnel for Belarus, it could be the end of Europe's last dictatorship. Potentially but obviously, there is a possibility that Lukashenko with used force against the protesters. riot police would be used to disperse and detained protesters in large number does completely destroyed morale So there are multiple scenario here, but if we're going to see a peaceful nonviolent but prolonged resistance to look schenker for the weeks and months after the election verse could turn the situation around. Alex. thanks very much. Indeed. That's Alex. culture of the country risk analyst with a focus on eastern Europe the this is the globalist. Demands that one should lose ones thrown and never pleasant but I imagine particularly tough. When occurs on your birthday though the King of Thailand may not have noticed as he's currently in the Bavarian Alps where he and his family tend to spend a great deal of time on the line from Bangkok is our correspondent Gwen Ronson Gwen good morning to you. Thanks for joining us. Can you give us the background to the current unrest in Thailand presumably as in the rest of the world the economy's been affected by the pandemic? Well indeed, yes and it's a it's a very good point about the economy. But what we're saying now is this extraordinary pouring out of I'd I'd say anger and frustration amongst students and there was the last couple of weeks there have been some of the biggest gathering of good sensor lockdown Sokoto which lasted a few months and kept everybody off the streets and now I think you're seeing a lot of young protestors out in the streets but needless to say as you pointed out there are some sensitivities about about talking about the royalty here however, the students have. Basically making some very veiled references to frustration with the system and I have got some very strong demands like calling for the government to resign the dissolution of parliament and a re writing of the military backed constitution Meanwhile, of course, learning over the whole thing like a big elephant in the room is the fact that. The. King is basically out of the country most of the time and I think this is caused some concern here and obviously killing some of the undressed as you say, it's mostly students is, is there a fear that that would spread? well. It's a very good point. They actually they won't some anger mounting before the pandemic and that all went quiet. But at that point was mainly confined to university campuses. What we think now is a rallying point such as the grand democracy. Monument in the center of Bangkok, not that far from the palace and there was a virtually about three thousand young people there a couple of weeks ago, and now I think in bold and by the fact that the government has not cracked down harshly on them, there are many more planned. But actually on the king's birthday, which is yesterday there was a a gathering. A PRO government pro monarchy. Rally that was supposed to be for young people which was full of sort of people waving posters of the king but it was only about two hundred or interestingly perhaps there is they're they're sort of rumble the foot from some very dark sort of very militant pro extreme pro royalists issuing threats of violence against the student etc and when we talk about students I don't think it is just you don't says a lot of young people defector young even professionals but I'd say that fueling all this, you point out its economy, we've just had a revision downward of Thailand's. Economic forecast that year lost nine from the Finance Ministry, which is revised it for cost to an eight point five percent contraction that year which is. Deepened from an early and much much smaller contraction and we'd think tourism collapsing. But most of all I think a lot of young people. There are five, hundred, thousand students graduating this year from universities in Thailand they feel they have very few job prospects nothing to go to and they feel that economic management in this country is bringing nothing but pain, it's obviously not the government's building. Thailand and of course, the coverage situation is lifted severe looked but in a country that is twenty percent for its economy relies on tourism I. Think the hits are extremely via Thailand is probably the worst victim in South East Asia of a the interactive. Look down and yet ironically it's one of the stars they've almost no deaths. It's under sixty and infections the barely three thousand. So. You know it's a it's a very ironic situation and it's not clear where things are going from here. But there is a sense that it could spiral out of control with these ugly threats in the student movement vowing to continue its protests and take to the streets I mean given that it is so difficult to speak out publicly criticizing the royal family carries a prison sentence. How are they? You mentioned that they were doing it obliquely but how how were they doing it? Well that's very interesting. I mean, there are ways and means I mean there's a lot of frustration being expressed about the system But where we really sing actually on social media huge there was a a facebook site set up Just April called marketplace, which is all for discussion about what they call the role of the monarchy It got seven, hundred and. Fifty thousand followers within about six weeks, lot of young people on discussing. But that is where we're seeing some venting. I think the government and the authorities are taking a very Catholic that don't want to push things too much. They used to jail people lift right federal and charge them with less imagined say for for the remotest hint of insulting the king. But the other day Well, it has become known that the king has has made it known anyway through the Prime Minister another that people don't some people arrested for insulting the monarchy, which is the charge less magic and they will be other ways they're urging people to show restraint and respect the monarchy, and whether just the other day a man wearing a tee shirt with a motto across Costa saying I have lost faith in the monarchy one and he posted photo himself with that t shirt was taken off to a mental asylum psychiatric hospital. And that caused a lot of protests. So in fact, there were placards at the recent rally saying losing faith in the monarchy is not insane So you know that's the kind of bleak way. I'd say but. It's all bubbling up and meanwhile they're you know very few royal visitation maybe a lot of people might feel a little bit abandoned APPs you know? Sometimes about. Them on our in a in a luxury hotel in in Europe. So that's obviously not really shoring up the face. I understand also that protesters in in Europe particularly in Germany, where the where the king is at the moment have been protesting that to. Date that's a that's a very interesting movements and he obviously is linked to try possibly tie activist but also interesting is the German media I think there are several key elements of the German media that have really decide to take this on and I gather that there are questions being brought up in German parliament very embarrassing question for the government such as what is the Mona status if he on an official visa or private one does he? Pay Taxes, etc, and This is coming from both the right and left interestingly in Germany and I think the publication concerned that are carrying on this campaign has put it. They have to talk about trying to snap picture of of His highness wherever he is it extended to wait Switzerland I. Think when he arrived there was a a photographer arrested for trying to take a picture at the airport that code I think they seem to be some. Strong currents I'd say, Talk. German, currents. Out To to escalate this campaign and it just remains to be seen what comes next but he definitely has invested there's a lot of You could call it Crown Ninety some people say it's public money invested in some grand villas in but Germany and Switzerland and their family that the king has a son at school in unique a special school So It's very unclear really what what how he sees the future of the monarchy but definitely, there are also moved here in Bangkok to shore it up and it's huge renovations and. And construction going on in. Bangkok. To build up the palace and there's reports of secret tunnels under the palace and. A lot of crown land thing taken back. As public facilities and for building you palaces oil buildings so that also I think is is something that is not making people happy Glenn. Thank. You very much indeed that gwen Robinson speaking to us from Bangkok this is the globalist, a monocle twenty four. Vs has over nine hundred investment analysts over one hundred different countries. Over nine hundred of the sharpest moins and freshest thing in the world of finance today. Find out how we can help you contacted us at UBS DOT com. You're listening to the globalist on monocle twenty four with me. Georgina Godwin. It's time now for our weekly report on the US presidential election. Joe. Biden, the Democratic nominee president stated earlier this week that he'll have chosen his vice presidential nominee by the end of next week speculation has intensified in his choice recently particularly as his lead over, Donald, trump has widened according to several national opinion polls in recent weeks. Tomas Lewis Monaco's US election correspondent has this view of the candidates reportedly under consideration to be Joe Biden's running mate. If I'm elected president, my my cabinet Mike Administration will look like the country and I commit that I will, in fact, a point a pick a woman to be vice president. There are a number of women who are qualified to be president tomorrow I would pick a woman to be my vice president thought to is the moment Joe Biden. Vowed during a televised debate in mid March that his running mate would be a woman and speculation has been keen emphasis to who she might be. Different. Burnett was Elizabeth Warren the Senate of Cheese speaking here on US television Lake April after she'd suspended her own presidential campaign and offered Biden current. because. It really is the case we are all in this now, and we have seen the importance of having a leader that we can count on in a crisis. It's not donald trump it is Joe Biden. If. He asked you to be his running mate. Would you say? Yes. Yes why Warren gone at huge enthusiasm at her rallies from younger voters and from some progressives both groups. Biden himself has struggled to gain the support of an unprecedented couple of months has changed the course not only if Biden's campaign but his choice for vice president to. Why do I have a high approval rating with respect and the administration with respect to the virus? We should have a very high because what we've done in terms of we're just reading off about the masks and the gowns and the ventilators. President Donald Trump speaking that eight White House press briefing. This week has created a stark contrast between the federal government's response to the crisis and that by state governors across the US, many of whom have offered clear leadership throughout the outbreak. That's equality. The Biden's campaign May to utilize in his choice for Vice President Gretchen Whitmer. The Governor of Michigan is one such FECTA reportedly under consideration without it comprehensive national strategy we the states must take action. We are joining a number of other states that have started anticipate many will follow. witnessed. Candidacy could help Democrats win back Michigan in November which narrowly voted for trump last time around electoral geography may indeed I apart in Biden's choice some commentators believed that the nomination of the governor of New Mexico Michelle Luhan Grisham could help swell democratic support in some states in the south there is no national strategy I. Still Spend most of my days chasing testing supplies for our state. It is the worst abdication of a national response and responsibility to protect Americans I've ever seen in my government career. The, black lives matter. In cities across the United States, the gun in Minneapolis in May following the killing of George Floyd has made many feel that his running mate will be a woman of color above everything else. I am a mother I am a mother to four black children in America. One of whom is eighteen years old and when I saw the murder of George Floyd. Would hurt. Key Chalance bottoms is the mayor of Atlanta she was speaking that in highly praised speech in the aftermath of flights death she is one of the figures who hasn't been household name in the US for long reportedly under consideration by Biden's campaign. Stacey Abrams former state representative in Georgia who narrowly lost Georgia's Governor's race in two thousand, eighteen broke convention in May when she openly stated in a newspaper article desire to be nominated as Biden's VP usually such ambitions onto expressed. So cake. com. Biden is increasingly likely however to nominate someone with experience of governing his large lead. In several recent national opinion polls has reportedly increased. The Biden campaigns desire to nominate someone who won't jeopardize that lead someone who has experienced the precious of the highest levels of politics. At first hand, there was a little girl in California. Who is part of the second class to integrate her public schools and she was bused to school every day And that little girl was me Coming Harris the California senator and former presidential candidate in a now famous exchange with Joe, Biden in a televised debate at the beginning of the year. She has long been touted as a possible contender to be Joe Biden's running mate, and this week Harris's name was photographed written on a piece of paper being held by Biden press conference leading many to speculate that she with her experience of presidential campaigning is in contention once again. Susan Rice, the former UN ambassador under Barrack Obama Senator Tammy Duckworth, a former military helicopter pilot and Karen Bass whose voice you're here next the popular congressman from California he served in Congress since twenty thirteen her among the other political veterans reported into consideration. The problem that we have is that he's a lawless president I mean we're going to have hearings about it in several different committees. He clearly wants to be authoritarian leader, but I think when it comes to the results of the election, he can try not to leave but our system just doesn't work that way. If he needs to be victims I have full confidence that he would be removed from that Oval Office. Joe Biden's pick to be his running mate Ruby key to an overall election strategy that is a departure from previous presidential candidacies not is it will be a campaign that is likely to be a team effort. A group of people as Biden has himself said that looks like the country and not exclusively candidacy as about him known, it's a strategy that serve the Democrats while the twenty eight midterm elections which resulted in the most diverse democratic house of Congress at elected. It's a strategy that the Democrats believe can win for them again in November this year Joe Biden this running-mate, whoever she is will be key toback campaign. Said was that I will. I'm going to have a choice. In the first week in. August. And I promise. I'll let you know when I do. For Monaco I'm Thomas. Many. Thanks to Thomas and here's what else we're keeping an eye on today. Donald Trump has raised the idea of two laying the November the third US presidential poll he said postal voting would lead to the most fraudulent election in history. The idea was immediately rejected by both Democrats, and his fellow Republicans in Congress, the sole branch of government with the authority to make such change. Philippine President Rodrigo deter has extended corona virus restrictions in the capital Manila until mid August and said, the country would be given priority and supplies in China made a breakthrough with the vaccine. And the European Union has imposed travel and financial sanctions on a department of Russia's military intelligence service and on firms from North Korea and China over there suspected participation in major cyber attacks across the world. This is the globalist statute. When Emmanuel macron was elected as French president, his approval rating was close to sixty percent that dropped sharply at one point just a couple of weeks ago he was pulling at thirty eight percent. But yesterday we saw bounceback as he was supported by half those polled, it's only the second time since two thousand and eighteen that he scored fifty percent French writer and journalist honest poirier is here to help us reflect on the changing fortunes of the man they call Jupiter. I. What is behind this jump of six points in the polls? Well. Well. Let's say I think we. We need to improve them all to took about how the French. Larry fickle in affection to their president it usually starts with the honeymoon that is quite short and. And then they love hating the presidencies never too right wing in all four left-wing enough and in the case of prison, my cough goes It's even worse because centrists. So he's never at the same time not right wing or left with a left-wing enough And You know just remembering shack Iraqi was never so popular done on the day be staff. So that's the way the French love you. But now talking about this sort of bounce in President Michael's popularity, they are actually objectively reasons to perhaps not rejoice but at least to applaud the French president I think you know more recently and of course, served Britain didn't pay so much attention to it because it's now a. Thermally a fruit. Of the European Union is that a historical I don't think the the is is. Strong enough urge to stress the importance of that recovery package just imagine seven, hundred and fifty billion euros. Of which France will benefit you know forty billion and it's the first time actually that twenty-seven countries have decided to borrow and spend collectively you know at the it's the materialization of debts and bonds, and that's historic and. Gentlemen one of the founders of the European Union said that. The. The the persona, the the European. Union will be forged in time of crisis and it's it's been proved right ever since. The fifth lease and it's something that President Michael can take personal credit for because ever since he was elected president three years ago. He he really from the beginning he really worked with Angela Merkel to to really convince her because France cannot do anything without Germany and vice versa and obviously as the. Is the heavier of the two especially economically. And it looks as if he finally convinced Merckel who convinced. The rest of of the German political class about show of solidarity and the fact that during that grueling European summit. You know they walked out of the room together did everything together and it's not in anger markle Stahl to walk out of a room and it's really a Franco German success but more importantly I think it's it's Michael's success and I think the French realized this and and they also realize that to have a young and an energetic president is a good thing especially when you have to go through a four day and night a European summit and they also seem to be very pleased with the cabinet reshuffle. Well? Exactly. Yes. Well, they were very pleased with their a former, a French Prime Minister Abe waffly actually was very popular and and left I. Think he was pointing at fifty one percent of the Seti satisfied at French compatriots. And many people thought that Michael was getting rid of Philip because he was too popular. But Sean Gas tax WHO's fifty five high? Civil. Saban to was is the elected Mayo of a small town in the southwest of France but he never held any important position in government and he's arrived any in any hit the ground running. It was quite impressive by thanking each wanted to set himself but he did a four day was in the French. West indies in my art. And then he was he could be seen everywhere. and John Guest x struck a very. Very interesting and quite congenial ago he has this southwest accent and aspirations it's It's it's quite wonderful to hear that accent. It says if we're on holiday. It puts a smile or face, but but I said inveigh in a in a very good way. So so it looks as if you know every time I mean addresses the National Assembly. It can only be good news. And Alcee speaks in sort of slaves quite slow in his delivery. So you pay attention and I think it has to stabilize squad of people on the extreme left and extreme right because they have somebody that the French Gone Ghana. So we'll see, of course, you know it's just the beginning is full of energy but I think you know from September Dandy. Perhaps second spike of Covid or just a resign urgence of cases that we have started to see a plastic to make. Outlook, which is quite grim may be quite another story. Just. Quickly before we go, the next presidential election is two, thousand, twenty, two, I mean of course that's about a century politics but. At this point do you think that macron has caused to be optimistic? Oh well, I. E E. If you look at the polls, yes, there was a recent poll. And showing that TM again he would be facing Malan Lapenne and that he would win again. But with a smaller. Margin. than in two thousand seventeen. You know the time perhaps he would. It would win by fifty, four, fifty, five percent. That's ten percent less at that would be ten percent less than in twenty seventeen so so far so good but so many things can happen and remember the yellow vast movements is just happened like this and it did damage considerably his presidency. Agnes thanks very much indeed this poor and her most recent book is all about not dominates out. Now this is the globalist. It's time to reset the dial, raise your gaze and ambitions and see how entrepreneurship finance diplomacy, architecture, retail, and hospitality set to progress in the coming months and years. That's why Monaco and partnership with Sister Agency. When creative is hosting a new summit in San Moritz from September sixteenth to eighteenth named the chiefs after the monocle twenty, four radio series presented by title. Berlin. It'll be a forum which CEO's founders, chiefs of staff and heads of creative industries take to the stage to explain how it's get business running smoothly again and examine the challenges and opportunities on the road ahead to reserve your ticket head to Monaco. Dot Com slash events is time you got some fresh air and clearview. Let's continue with today's newspapers and joining me down the line is the political journalist Terry Stephanie. Now, Tara don't know how you like your job, but I see that there is one that's been advertised that might suit you absolutely down to the ground and give you a hundred thousand pounds. A year Boris Johnson is looking for a spin doctor who will. Talk to the public every day. This person's like to get a huge profile plus the large sizes, but you would have to basically well field everything for him. How'd you feel about that? Well. Nobody's called me and asked me to apply for that certainly and I. Think. I don't think it's necessarily from me. I think is it's a real culture change in terms of how British political journalism works. The lobby system had always been quite secretive something behind closed doors and people have been arguing for a while as to whether this, these briefings should be done in public televised but I think one of the risks of this is that you will kind of journalists showboating a bit that you'll get people. Asking the big question in order to to raise their own profile and rather than allow people to persist in actually getting on answers because I think one of the things about Lobi briefings used to be the. People would just cheaper way try and chip away and chip away a spokesperson and and try and get some clarity, and sometimes that detail is exactly quite boring and probably wouldn't make for great TV, Yeah Yep well if that roll already existed, they would have a difficult time defending what the government did very late last night, which was suddenly with almost no warning saying that lockdown measure will be reimposed across various parts of northern England that's reported in the times and also in the Telegraph. Yes, this is exactly I mean if you were the government's new spokesperson, that's probably one of the interview questions in a how how, how would you handle this and I think somebody in that broke absolute. We'll have the detail of announcement before you make the announcements. This dropped quite late last night and is the time says, lockdown restrictions tightened last night for four million people across large parts of northern England after a rise in corona virus cases. So this is Greater Manchester East Lancashire. Of West Yorkshire said places like Burnley Blackburn. Where there have been large number of cases, but people weren't really told immediately what's that is actually going to mean now the Daily Telegraph says pot partial lockdown reimposed across north of England and the initial details said, well, you won't be allowed to meet people. From different households inside your house, they've been further details put out this morning saying that you won't be able to meet people in your garden. You will be able to meet people in public place like the park for instance, but then it complete confusion and many local MP's last night we're trying to get details from the government all people in the northwest of England allowed to go to the pub, for instance. That they will be allowed to go to a pub with people who live in in your own household. So it was just an in another example of where the government has decided to do something, but they really communicated clearly to people who are affected by that that's going to mean, and particularly it's eat a Lotta today people made plans to get together with with friends or family to celebrate, and you know that guidance is is not being very clear is coming last minute. I mean I think the government would say that they've done not because there is being this increasing cases and they needed to take action quickly but there is. This lack of clarity is must be very confusing for people. Absolutely. When of course, Germany is is not immune from this either fears during their over reckless party goes I like the story in the German papers where they are telling readers where they can go in Europe? Yes. On one hand you have the British reporting of of new, Germany where in the Guardian this morning they're saying that German tourists have moved from from going to Miyoko where they were places to be shut down because of a German tourist leading the Beer Strauss. A bars and clubs were made to close the then moving on Bulgaria where the wild parties seemed to shifted across across Europe from West to east but rather more responsibly. The the fats Frankfurt Allgemeine Zeitung is telling. Germans that for instance, in the Netherlands that's going to be increased requirement to wear mosques in parts of Amsterdam for instance, in a in the markets in the in the red light district. You'll be have to have to wear a mosque and keep your one and a half to distance, and also in parts of Rotterdam, and they're pointing out also in parts of France. Mosque requirement is being extended at the moment you have to wear most dinner shop as you. You know most places around Europe, but in places like some low in Brittany in Ohio and in the south western Atlantic has been bay on and and beer it's you will have to wear a mosque even outdoors in a public place and they've gone helpful map PIA. Telling you whereabouts in Europe that you can travel where where were restrictions and where there aren't. So for instance, the coastal quarantine requirements on. Ostlund in Serbia warnings about travel in a lot other places you'll still perfectly free to to travel within Europe but the that do seem to be worried now about people traveling across Europe in effect is going to have. On cases when when people return home again. Now, we've just been talking about France and remarking how president macron's popularity ratings have improved, but that's not. Across the board French hunters not very happy with him. Yes I think I. Think Trump is a regularly not happy but this is an interesting story picked up in times. This morning and hunters from prevents wants to keep the traditional way of trapping birds, which is called a lime stick trapping, and this doesn't actually let doesn't kill the birds it does sound pretty pretty nasty. So it's. A technique that involves covering twigs and branches in glue. said that Song Thrush get stuck when they landed than captured, alive and used as cool buds to attract other birds to the guns. And it still permitted imprints they're not in the rest of Franz because it's deemed to be a local custom and French. Minister Barbara Pompilio had said that she wants to outlaw this the French hunters are. Getting the costs about this and saying it's not cruel because they let the birds go and they get the the glue off them the apparently that's not great if you're if you're a bird as you can imagine when they say they won't to demonstrate outside the footsteps play Console, which is web president macro. Is taking his holiday in France is the presidential. A holiday I think it's more like an old military fought and there was certainly a controversy when we're macro said that he wanted to have a swimming pool Putin and people thought that this was not a great idea but I think if you're going for your holiday on your little Fort Islet out in the south of France I think a protest is probably wouldn't be able to get very near him and I think his holiday will probably be relatively untroubled world but that's at least they're obviously there's enough on his plate to be dealing with Terry. Thank you very much. Indeed. I'll leave you to get on with that job application. This is the globalist. UPS is a global financial services firm with over one hundred, fifty years of heritage. Built on the unique dedication of all people we bring fresh thinking and perspective to all while. We know that it takes a marriage of intelligence and heart to create lasting value for all clients. It's about having the right ideas of course, but also about having one of the most accomplished systems and an unrivalled network of global experts. That's why at UBS we pride ourselves on thinking smarter to make a real difference to names the bulletin with UBS every week for the latest insights and opinions from ubs all around the world. Oh. Well it's time to talk business now with the financial analyst and monocle twenty, four regular Lewis Cooper good morning to you Louise Georgina. Now, obviously, the career environment that our lives have moved more and more online and the people reaping the results are, of course, the digital providers some results out really unusual last night in America. For the first time ever we had for tech beasts absolutely monster companies all the port at the same time facebook Google alphabet. We'll google. Is alphabet apple an Amazon Book Google Apple Amazon and the numbers were truly extraordinary. They all completely smashed. The forecast analysts forecast with the exception of Google that's being hit very hard by the advertising slowdown bizarrely facebook despite the advertising slow down and a bit of A. Backlash against hate speech I and a number of firm saying they're not gonNA advertise on on facebook facebook got she did really well but let's start with the apple numbers because the apple numbers were truly extraordinary. So if you remember the beginning of this crisis, apple was one of the companies to be hit because they manufacture in China the factories was shot and everyone's thinking well, if people don't have much money, it's going to be tougher apple. So apple was sort of like an early share price casualty of the crisis will fast forward for five months and wow then numbers were extraordinary because we're all locked inside the house and so we have to. Buy more MAC books in order to work from home. But also we're relying on our phones more than ever and say, the phone sales I sales also searched. So stock price was up six percent in after training. Let's just look at the actual numbers. Their quarterly revenue of sixty billion dollars was up eleven percent from a year earlier but analysts thought they were only going to do fifty two. So that's significantly better than they thought also this iphone se sort of cheaper version was launched in April and of course, in a slightly economic leaner times, the did extremely well as well. So Apple, one of the things we've talked about before Georgina is how? Share prices of tech giants have soared during this crisis. And I guess these results show why they've done so well, and Amazon to, of course, as you say, absolutely smashing it I mean. Look. Amazon is valued by the stock market at one and a half trillion dollars. It is a beast companies. This large are not expected to grow their revenue forty percent, and that was what they did. They grew their revenue year on year by forty percent. They are just some extraordinary numbers. Now show Amazon did worn a couple of months ago Jeff. BEZOS did one a couple of months ago he said you know look absolutely a revenue surging, but it's costing US four billion dollars to equip warehouses with P. P. to wash. Everything is costing us a fortune. I can't guys said, don't get carried away with the revenue it's costing us a fortune we weren't making any profit. Will. They did and they made a significant profit this quarter. So so even when you've got Jeff Bass or scarring Oh, they were GonNa make any profit they still came through and they still made a five billion dollars of profit this year this quarter compared to well double the prophet for years ago. Truly. It a blue, the lights out listened. Of course, this way of shopping isn't entirely new. We used to look up at the things that we wanted in a book and then order them. And that book. The book of Dreams from August is about to be longer. So this is so in the UK, we have A. Massive about three inches thick it did it used to be the biggest print from of. Across Europe I mean literally it they've had. The company that owns Al Gore's has printed over a billion of these books in total. It's be running along for about forty eight years now, and I remember as a child I used to circle the things in the book of dreams that I wanted for my Christmas then sort of poke the. Cat Catalog towards my mom and dad, and in fact, my children do the same only year they all my fifty years of living. Georgia. I can't remember a time when we haven't had an August catalog in the house. We've got one downstairs. I. Saw it was up to a cup of tea but I'll go said, no, it's all digital. It's all online and getting rid of it, and you can imagine the social media backlash I get. Such a beloved at treasured book but it's just a sign of the Times. It really is a sign of the Times isn't it and it's a it's it's that will be sorely missed but I guess every all that information on their website. That's the whole point at it makes no sense to print it. Don't need it. Louise Thank you very much indeed for joining us. That was Louise. Cooper and this is the globalist, a monocle twenty four. Well it's Friday. So it's time to unpack what we've learned over the last seven days. Here's motorcycles and Jamila. We learned last week. You'll recall that US President Benito Cartman is not entirely the moral vacuum. He generally present says, and indeed the plucky flame of compassion flickers somewhere the in he deviated you'll remember from his usual register of contempt and indifference in respect of one suffering soul I haven't really been following it too much. I just wish it well, frankly I've met her numerous times over the years especially since I lived in Palm Beach and I guess they lived in Palm Beach but I wish her well granted the person upon who the president bestowed displacing is currently a prisoner awaiting trial for trafficking children, but it seemed like a start. Would we learn this week? Therefore, that may be this new spiritual largest would expand to. Perhaps the late congressman John Lewis. Indefatigable civil rights campaigner lost surviving speaker from the nine hundred, sixty, three march on Washington and indisputable. American hero would president trump attend congressman Lewis lying in state at the US Capitol to offer homage on behalf of the nation he leaves. I won't be going now. Honestly, it's probably for the best had trump turned up and managed to pay his respects without punching Nasha. It would only have led to a whole bunch more of those has trump became president last pieces which have somehow still not become instant career enders in American journalism. But we did also learn thanks to President Trump's promotion of her work of the thoughts of Houston doctor. Still Emmanuel President trump re tweeted Dr Emmanuel's endorsement for his own preferred covid nineteen snake oil hydroxy chloroquine at which diligent White House reporters made inquiries into other areas of Dhaka. Emmanuel's research. It was in great doctor and video that you re tweeted. Last night said that mask don't work and there's a cure for covid nineteen both the which health experts say is not true. She's also made video saying that doctors make medicine using DNA from aliens and that they're trying to create a vaccine to make you immune from the religious. Maybe it's not, but I can't I can tell you this still no harm done is one thing for which Americans famous it's their stout resistance to patently idiotic conspiracy theories. Okay lowest form of, but you can only work with what the news furnishes. In happy news for the United States we learned of an end to one of these silly diplomatic spats in recent history hurry Harris. US Ambassador to South Korea shaved off his moustache. This walls a bigger deal than it might sound not a high bar granted but stick with us the top lip topiary sported by Harris had been controversial because some. South. Korean commentators and politicians believed moustaches offensively evocative of the facial hair of Korea's former Japanese imperialist oppresses or they pretended to believe that for attention but it is hard to tell these days Anyway. Ambassador Harris. has now trash the tash to make wearing a face mask more comfortable insults steaming some so crisis officially. We learned in the course of researching soundtracks for the next item that there is something of a shortage of great. Ukrainian. Country Songs about being in jail. So this is prison which was supposed to be Moldova's entry at Eurovision this year, but he is sung by Italian Gordyenko who is of Ukrainian descent. So we reckon we've just about got away with this. Four we learned that if you all sufficiently unfortunate to end up in the clink and Ukraine, the option of an upgrade is available. Ukraine's Ministry of Justice is offering gift certificates for remanded prisoners costing about seventy two US dollars per day redeemable for relocation to better appointed souls. We've air conditioning and microwave ovens at which point the thought occurs that there are definitely hotels in Kiev, which charge more than that for fewer comforts. So police should be braced for a petty crime spree by enterprising backpackers and for an extra tip, they might even turn this music off. And we learned of an appetite both hearty and startling for stories about US among twenty four listeners. The Large Journey flightless Australian bird has become something of a recurring motif of this monologue in recent weeks at which point let's hear it from nine, thousand, nine, hundred Ustralian bluegrass sensations the flying emus with EMU Strut. Instrumental of the year nineteen ninety-seven Country Music Awards Austrailia that was literally several of you alerted us to the news that pub in Queensland has been compelled to formally ban amused from the premises. The Iraqi hotel in the hamlet of that name has instituted preventive measures to disbar to local amuse known as Kevin and Carol the have been reaching assorted havoc in the pub including knocking stuff over and pinching toast from the toaster. In normal circumstances, it would be childish and pure royal to resort to jokes about how a pub catering to queenslanders should be well used to encourage ably malodorous unhygienic, aggressive and destructive customers. But in the week that the state abruptly closed its borders to visitors from Sydney, this new South Welshman feels obliged to hit back. monocle twenty, four, I'm Andrew. Thank you very much to Andrew and I think you'll agree that that was very. Amusing. Oh. Not Fool with today's park. I'm best I just go. Now I think many thanks to producers, page rentals, color cerebellar, and Daniel page I research it was Charlie flow mccaw, Turner Stadium, manager David Stevens. After the headlines There's more music on the way look out for this week's edition of only in Australia coming up in a couple of hours. In this episode, I meet innovators and entrepreneurs across the country and you. Can Join me as I jumped on and off helicopters wallow in large. Baath's sing in the shower speak to some of the brightest tourism lines in Australia then the briefing is live at midday London and the globalist will return at the same time on Monday. I'll be with you on tomorrow of Monaco on Saturday and during the show I'll be speaking to Margaret busby chair of the judging panel for the Booker Prize. And that longlist was released this week. So we'll find out all about it and as a spinoff give you summer reading list. So do join me tomorrow I'm Georgina Godwin. Thank you for listening.

president President Donald Trump United States Joe Biden Europe Bangkok France Belarus Russia President Lukashenka Monaco Democrats European Union Ukraine Germany Alexander Lukashenko Harris Thailand London China
Why are people so anti-Russia?

Between The Lines

28:57 min | 1 year ago

Why are people so anti-Russia?

"This is an ABC podcast. Welcome to between the lines on Tom Switzer is great to heavy company. What is it about Russia that continues to wind everyone up so much? What do you think why will the Anga the alarms? Rick the ruthless draw twice light a great power with a vassal of nuclear weapons will for five years. Now, certainly since the outbreak of the Ukraine standoff, February twenty four hop ventilating pundits and politicians on left. Dan, wrought have been warning the bear is on the prow. And that led me Putin is destroying democracy all across the globe as a result, and many of you have heard me say this all too often on this show and elsewhere the Russia fobs have spread exaggerations about the Putin fresh which fuelled hatred and sewed misunderstanding. My next guest today agrees. There is he argues nothing peculiar pathological. In Russia's behavior. It is simply protecting legitimate security interests in the Baltics its near abroad and the Middle East, and it's objectives. Limited. Steven Cohen is professor emeritus in Russian studies from in while you in Princeton, and he's the author of the wall with Russia from Putin and Ukraine to Trump and Russia gate. That's just out stave. Welcome back to between the lines. Thank you. Tom grand to be with you. Now, you'll critics all too often denounce you as a Russian apologised in a Putin. Stooge? What are they continued to impugn you'll motives when you have decades of what many people argue is rigorous intellectual experience in this field. Well, it's become about me in the last five years as you say all this slurring of me, but it's a more general problem. Generally, speaking, anybody who has a public platform in the United States today, and they're not very many of us and very few public platforms available anymore who tried to take? Let's call it a balanced or objective. More storks view of Russia, particularly American Russian relations are being slurred. How do we explain this? Well, Russia has always been talk sake in America. I did a calculation the other day, and I was surprised myself to discover that one hundred years of American Russian relations there have been seventy five years Cold War out of the hundred. So that's a subject where thinking about maybe not today, but this is not unusual. But I think what makes it so severe today is it has to do with Putin the Russian leader since two thousand and in a word, I put it like this. There was. The expectation among American political media -letes when the Soviet Union ended Russia would become a subordinate partner of the United States in world affairs, and it looked for a decade or less in the nineteen ninety s like that might be the case because then Russian President Yeltsin was weak needy and President Clinton took advantage of him in a kind of soft way that made it sound like a friendship, but the resentment was building in Russia. The resentment produced Putin could have been much worse. And I think it's the reaction to Putin primarily the sense that the American media political elites were wrong when they thought that after the end of the Soviet Union, the United States alone would determine world affairs when Russia reemerged on the world stage. It was a shock. A bitter disappointment and much of that continues to influence American thanking today about Russia. And about people's touches me who say this is not a bad thing when need to deal with it. And there are a lot of good possibilities. But we're not taking those possible. Well, of course, you like many realists such as George Kennan, the intellectual architect of the containment doctrine and not hang forty seven in the non hundred nineties you both among others oppose Naito expansion. But remember Steve at the time. Many Republicans end Democrats believed strongly that the expansion of the Atlantic alliance. Eastwood's was a benign move. Well, tom. I mean, if I find out where you live, and I come over to your house with my home as my buddies. They're all carrying. I doubt that calms. Go to say, Steve, why are you? So benign. It's preposterous. When the subject was debated, virtually everyone in the United States do anything about Russia's signed a petition saying that if you expand NATO in the direction of Russia, much, less directly to Russia's borders where it is today. There is going to be a very bad reaction a backlash, and we're now living with that for almost twenty years. So on that night when we mentioned earlier in the program five years ago, the Russian seize Crimea, and that ignited watt spread condemnation, and it was Wally perceived as evidence of Russian expansionism, your argument, just to clarify that this was just Russia striking back at night in crush Mond on its territory and the Russian Black Sea fleet, of course, had been basing in may for generations that she will on isn't it? Yeah. I go farther than that. I say that though Putin is blamed for the Ukrainian crisis. Not only is that not historically accurate, but anyone setting in the Kremlin would have had to react because we need to go back to how the Ukrainian crisis began in late two thousand thirteen and then on my dawn in two fourteen. It's presented in the west as a bad actor reaction to a benign western policy that came offering Ukraine only western economic and civilizational values. The only people who can believe that very table. Is anyone who did not read the one thousand page economic partnership agreement that NATO was offering Ukraine because there's a section in there called military security issues. It's clearly written that in signing this so-called economic partnership. You crane would abide by the military security provisions of the European Union, which were and remain NATO. So it was an attempt in two thousand thirteen fourteen to bring Ukraine into NATO through the back door. This was understood in Kiev. It was understood in Moscow. It was a reckless provocation by the west you have to tell me, Tom why the two thousand and thirteen Washington and the European Union Brussels. Tried to do a bilateral relationship economic with Ukraine that excluded. Russia. Russia was Ukraine's largest trading partner, by the way it remains. So today, why didn't they in two thirteen offer? What Putin was asking for a tripartite trading agreement that would include Russia, Ukraine and the European Union? And the reason is it was not about trade. It was about NATO, but you're not suggesting that Moscow's Putin's interventions in Ukraine. And has been legal or moral. I used to well, I don't you'll have to ring up. John Mercia, Emmer your friend and guest on this show. I know and ask him what legal and moral means, and international affairs. Among great powers. I don't know. Whether you're referring to the American war in Iraq and Libya, or or what we're doing in Venezuela today we change regimes. And if we want them change, we do it by force, so legal and moral or not by words of great power. I what about Syria because we're all too often told that Russia's intervention in the civil war emit light twenty fifteen helped the brutal Assad regime win the civil war. And as result kill hundreds of thousands of innocent Syrians, mainly soon. He's how would you respond to that? Well, it's well documented it's not my say, so you can look it up that the Obama administration was funding people who came the look in Syria very much like jihadists it was funding. These anti Assad groups in two thousand fifteen. The Russian leader in the entire Russian policy. Class said tool bomb to the world to the international community. A Putin said at the United Nations we now face the choice in Surrey, and we must decide who will be a Damascus. Will it be the Islamic state or will it be Assad the world's not perfect? But that's the choice any rational person would have chosen the Saad over the Islamic state in Damascus, certainly Israel. Did it add no objection to Putin's military intervention in two thousand fifteen show. What happened as a result of Russia's military? Invention intervention. Trump hasn't half wrong. He keeps saying we the United States destroyed the Islamic state. That's incorrect. The Islamic state was actually a state, correct? Tom in two thousand fifty caliphate. That means it ran the schools collected taxes. Recruited people the Russian intervention destroyed that Islam estate in Surrey with the help of the Iranians in the army, but it was the statehood that was destroyed. Now, we have twenty or thirty thousand perhaps Islamic fighters. Rolling around that area. But no longer statehood. So I will say that. There was an existential moment in two thousand fifteen and here's the larger point Tom Putin personally in sit down with a with Obama said lettuce. Join hands in Syria. This is a threat equally to us lettuce. Join hands insurer against international terrorism Obama was tempted briefly, but ultimately either was thwarted in more in in Washington by what some people call the deep state, though, I wouldn't or Obama changed his mind for other reasons and refused. So Putin went ahead alone. So Trump is law raw it was Russia that destroyed the Islamic state is stay, but he's right. It was destroyed point because you could argue that toppling the Assad regime, and this is an outcome that the west most notably a bomber Hillary Clinton divert Cameron in Britain, they were enthusiastically encouraging. This outcome. But if you brought down a side, it probably would have led to handing Syria over to the jihadists, and you just have to ask yourself. Imagine his state by Bice on the eastern Mediterranean. Well, Tom as in life politics is about choices and alternative. What was the actual choice in two thousand fifteen Russia said it was a choice between a sawed and the Islamic state. I believe that was a correct evaluation. I who did they think was going to come to power in Damascus if Assad was overthrown Bill Clinton, Rachel, Rachel, Maddow. And you. The the invasion of Iraq in two thousand and three and the toppling of Ghaddafi in twenty eleven now we've dealt with Ukraine, we've dealt with Syria. What about scruple? Now, we had on the show light last g Steve Mary digest ski from the independent and the guardian and she continues to climb that Moscow was not involved in the Nova chalk attack, but one about evidence to the contrary. Authorities have lied their evidence on the title, and they say the two men behind the poisoning of former double agent, sue Geist, rebel and his daughter Yulia. They ended the out of the names of Alexander Petrov and Reuss land Bushehr off on March the second. And then on the fourth used a modified perfume spray bottle containing the Nova, chalk nerve agent poison sprite it around the front door of Sergei pile. Both of them will left finding they live in hospital. That was a Nine Network story on the evidence Lhasa timber. And he's. The media watch prisoners place investigation in volt two hundred and fifty detectives fourteen hundred witness statements and eleven thousand hours of TV footage and in the house of Commons. British pm to resume was even clearer about the culprits, blaming Russian military intelligence, the hiney disciplined organization with a well established chain of command. So this was not a rogue operation. It was almost certainly also approved outside the. You a senior level of the Russian state now that was tries in my in the Commons blaming the Cridland full descrip-, I'll poisoning now ABC's made you watch in September. Last did a number on us. Steve me, John Pilger of people the former liberal empire Ross Cameron, and my argument, and I'll be curious to get your response tool. These Steve windy initial charge against Russia was made. There was no evidence in on the public record linking Moscow to the killings all the tinted killings, which is what we said. That was true. The initial charge was based on speculation not hard evidence. But the question to you is hasn't the British government sent produce substantial evidence linking Russia to scruple. If the British government has done, so I'm aware of it on the other hand, I can't claim expertise in the scruple case. There's a person named Mark Chapman. I magic him to be British who publishes regularly in David Johnson's Russia list, which anyone can Google and to my reading he's utterly demolished. The British government's case let me just begin with the obvious. This was said to be and I quote, a highly lethal toxic poison and yet both of the script house are alive today. The store there's something wrong with the story from the beginning, and it dishing, why would the Kremlin Putin who at that moment was seeking better relations with the west and particularly a partnership, including in Syria. Run such an operation and the United Kingdom if Russians were behind it. And I don't rule it out. I just don't know. But the official story doesn't hang together. But if Russians were behind it prime minister may simply doesn't know what she's talking about. And I would guess based on what she said about the script ball case, not well informed about the script allocation, either, we simply don't know. But the problem here, Tom, this is a point I make in my new book war with Russia question. Mark that in this new Cold War. Existential fateful decisions are being made on the basis of allegations not on evidence that didn't happen very often during the preceding Cold War, and it's happening now. And that's why this one is more dangerous. Steven Cohen is my guest. He's a professor emeritus in Russian studies from NYU and Princeton. We've been talking about Wisden attitudes towards Russia in recent years in lot of Ukraine, Syria scruple, and of course, Dave charges of Moscow's interference in America's presidential election. I've certainly strengthen the demand to treat Russia as the enemy all struck Justice month a Senate investigation concluded that there was no collusion between Russia and the Trump campaign in twenty sixteen. We'll Trump's opponents accept it. No because it's ingrained in American politics, the Democratic Party and the now majority democratic controlled house intend to run with this. I imagine it'll be part of the next presidential election. But let me make a point on briefly. Russia gate allegations claim correct me if I'm wrong that Russia meddled that's the word that used metal MED LA in the two thousand sixteen American presidential election. That's the crux of the allegation. You would agree with it? Right. Tell me, Tom if you know when since the Russian civil War Russia and America have not medaled in each other's domestic politics. I could take you through the hundred years, but I'll just mention the following president Wilson Senna military force to meddle in the Russian. Civil war in nineteen eighteen to jump forward. The Clinton administration did everything possible onsite defects. Then Russian President Yeltsin's reelection ninety nine six I was in Moscow. I observed it they were all over. I think time magazine had a front page cover on it. When it was over a time magazine. Glorified. It said Yanks to the rescue. And there was Yeltsin dressed as Yankee doodle, Dan. All it's true. I'm not going is for better or worse. There has been a long hundred year tradition of the two countries meddling in each other's domestic in the current context. We've got these allegations of collusion. Have we found any smoking gun? I mean, what about those indictments of the Trump Chaim and manifold Marco Flynn. What about that making in Trump Tower arranged in? I think it was June twenty sixteen so that Trump's son he son-in-law campaign chair Manafort they could receive apparently damaging information about Hillary Clinton from contact in the Kremlin is that a smoking gun. So that's come back to collusion. Let's talk about Trump Tower, very briefly. So this meeting is set up via the junior Trump dawn who when it comes to Russia is not exactly a light bulb. He was completely uninformed. And he was told that there was a woman coming from Russia with dirt on Hillary Clinton. Correct. So he took the meeting she analogy on her Helary Clinton. None at all. What did she have a story about orphans? He had no idea which was talking about any could play his father. The woman wanted to talk about orphans what's this about? Well, the fact that the Trump campaign didn't know what it's about tells you something important as a result of the Magnitsky act which had penalized Russian companies for human rights violations. The crimin- banned all American adoptions of orphans. Do you? Remember that? All right. What happened approximately two hundred American families who had gone through the euro long process of travel and expense and getting to know these Russian orphans were deprived of their kids. So this woman comes and says to them would you like a few orphans, and they had no idea what she was talking about. In other words, she was willing to swap orphans for some favorable resolution of a Russian corporation. She represented that had been caught up in the thicket of American sanctions that was long the short of it. It was actually about orphans. And of course, the Trump people had no idea what she was talking about as for collusion. It was financial corruption America has been engaged in financially corrupt relationship with Russian oligarch since the nineteen nineties petty financial corruption of the conning the guys like Manafort and their scores of these firms in. In the United States. The late Senator McCain had his own set a political operatives who go to other countries for price to bring about electoral outcome. That's desired Manafort was doing exactly what scores of American operators had done. So my conclusion is that selective. Prosecution. As in the case of Manafort is persecution. If you're gonna send Manafort at sixty nine or seventy to prison for the rest of his life and fine him. I don't know eight million dollars, which will bankrupt his family. You should go down the list and do all these guys who have operated as lobbyists at home and abroad without registering. So this is selective. Prosecute actually there's Manafort never worked for Trump. Would would he be in this position right now? Probably not now, my guess is professor Stephen Cohen, one of the world's leading Russia experts. His new book is called the war with Russia with a question. Mark now, save if you're right about Russia and Trump guys Russia guys why then count we in the west work with the Kremlin when interests of lap as I do Ghibli as you point out in defending Islam g hottest and also, and we have mentioned keeping in shape arising Chana. Why can't we do that? So you, and I may have to coral here on the other hand, you live in Australia, and I live on the Wendy Upper West side of New York a little farther from China. I don't see quote a rising chiming as anything other than a historical inevitabilities. China's time in history has calm, and why it should be treated as a threat to anyone is not clear to me. Like russia. I fear China will be threat if we make it a threat because that's certainly what we did to Putin's Russia in America's interest to push Russia closer to China. Now you come to. The crucial issue the yes. And no as a historian. I would argue that given the what is it four thousand kilometer border. They share their need for each other's resources, raw materials, manufactured good and capital. Russia's ability to supply, China, which is thirsty with energy that it's not so much choice is kind of natural outcome in world affairs. But that been comes back to the United States. Should we regard a growing Russian Chinese? Let's call it an alliance because it's almost that. Right. They don't call it in Lyons yet, but they may sign an alliance treaty. Very sill. We have driven them ever closer together more closely than the natural resources, economic dynamics would've made them because both see us as a threat and NATO the enemy Miami's my friend. Yeah. So you could argue if you if you're worried about China that. The United States needs to change its policy toward Moscow entered China. There's a lot of concern in Russia, by the way, I was there in November December, and I heard it as I've for years, there's a kind of underlying sometimes not so underlying racial anxiety about China going way back in history to the tartar invasion of old Russia that the China's going to overrun Russia and absorbed Cyprus Siberia and Russia will lose its identity and place in rural affairs to China. So there's an executive, and I would say the probably at least twenty five to thirty percent of the Russian political class would prefer alliance with the United States. But the United States is deprive Moscow that possibility every day and on TV in talk shows on radio such as yours. There's discussion of what Russians called the pivot P I V O T the pivot the pivot to the east. Russia is pivoting away from the west to the east. Now, that's a major theme. And this little new book of mine war with Russia. Question more. This is a historic development one brought about by American policy is it too late to stop Russia's pivot to the east away from the west. I'm not sure of that brings us back to Washington in twenty nine teen presidential election. Knicks g the position that you enunciate it really reflects ima- rotten sighing a political tradition with roots in the American pass because wasn't those cold warriors Nixon and Ryon embrace die tone with the Soviets. His more than that. But you're right. But you're even writer than you think I am professor America's to two universities, which means I have a lot of healthcare. And it means I'm old. Long-life I entered public life. When I was a professor at Princeton in the nineteen seventies better relations with Russia. Introducing cooperation into the dangerous conflicts of of the last Cold War that process that policy was called detente day taught we had three major detente s- in the twentieth century under Eisenhower with goose jaw exit with Brezhnev and the most successful President Reagan with Gorbachev the last Soviet leader which helped. Noticed something interesting about those episodes each day taught president was a Republican. Yeah. A Republican as is Trump at least nominally. Correct, Eisenhower, Nixon and Reagan. Secondly, detente was considered a legitimate though. It was good tested. It was always the subject of a political struggle participated in them. But it was a fair fight. What's different today? And you ended at it. The idea of daytime has been criminalized in the United States by this this false thing called Russia gate. Anyone who dare advocate better relations with Russia today is now in our major newspapers and on our cable TV said to be undergoing undertaking suspicious activities. So your argument, then is even during the call won't we had a move Arbor debate about Russia, then we do tonight in those days in the seventies. Eighties. When we were fighting for daytime, nobody suggested we were engaging in criminal activity today. They're saying that literally I think you could also make the same argument, by the way, Steve in Britain, Germany, Coburn is one of the few prominent Brits who supports engagement with the Kremlin. And he'll too often gets denounces a Putin. Puppet, doesn't he I can't tell you. Whether it's worse in Britain or worse than the United States. All I can do as quote, a Russian adverb Oba Ahuja both our worst never been this toxic before. I mean, look just to give you a remote. But telling example, you know, about this boot to know woman, this young Russian woman who's been held in solitary confinement woman did as far as the prosecutors have produced evidence nothing other than come to the United States and extol the virtues of Russia. She's a Russian citizen and urge American Russian day taught. So finally, she confessed she gave a plea. She wants to out of prison. You know, who does this sort of thing? Who did it the old Soviet authorities? This is not good Tom stave on that gloomy night. We'll have to leave it there. It's always great to have you on high Basie right here. I hope you stay on the air. Tom Steven Cohen, author of the world. Stephen cohen. He's the author of their wool with Russia from Putin, and you're trying to Trump and Russia. Well, that's it for this week show. Remember if you'd like to hear the episode again, download segments since twenty fourteen just go to ABC thought, I use lash Irun and follow the prompts to between the lines or you can listen via the ABC listen app, or wherever you get your podcast, you can even subscribe. So you never miss an episode on Tom Switzer? Hi, congenial. Next.

Russia Tom Putin Russia Russia United States Ukraine Tom grand Russia Russia gate Syria Moscow Trump Steven Cohen Trump Atlantic alliance professor Trump ABC Steve me
That time the CIA stole a Russian submarine

Retropod

09:11 min | 1 year ago

That time the CIA stole a Russian submarine

"Hey history lovers. I'm Mike Rosen walled with retro pod a show about the past rediscovered. This is the story of the single greatest deception, V, greatest sham ever perpetrated by the CIA. Well, at least that we know of so in nineteen sixty eight the Cold War is in full swing. That's Robert buyer, the director of the CIs museum in our previous episode. He told us about the one shot. Pistol the United States plan to airdrop into Europe during World War, Two amazingly enough though. He's gotten even better story. This one about the Cold War. The United States versus the Soviet Union. The heyday of espionage, both powers are looking at each other trying to gain advantages sort of like chess with checkmate being a nuclear war. And at that time that a Soviet submarine called the K one twenty nine sink somewhere in the Pacific Ocean. There were. Nearly one hundred sailors aboard but there was also other precious cargo it's got three nuclear missiles aboard and it's got incredibly valuable cryptography equipment, the Russians obviously go nuts looking for it. No luck, at least not for the Russians. They spent two months searching for the sub before giving up. They apparently didn't have the super, nifty, hydrophones, essentially underwater microphones, the US navy was using to listen to sounds across the ocean trying to pick up Soviet nuclear test explosions. They actually hear this submarine going down in triangulating, the signal the United States is able to find out exactly where that submarine is resting at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean roughly fifteen hundred miles north west of Hawaii. That's where you're Li seventeen thousand feet down on the ocean. In floor. And this, this is where the story becomes totally bananas. The CIA desperately wants to get its hands on this sub- and study. It's technology, but it's the Cold War, a, you can't just disclose that, you know, we're an enemy vessel is where you blow your chance to get the goods and be you can't just send the navy out in hope. Nobody notices a big crane going fishing for an enemy vessel, but the CIA it can do what the organization has been doing since its earliest days, come up with a cover story, some great disguises, then fool everyone. And that's exactly what happened on a scale that nearly defies belief. So the cover story, it goes like this Howard Hughes. The eccentric billionaire is going to build a gigantic ship called the glow. Mark spoarer in it's going to sail to the Pacific Ocean and mind the ocean floor for Magoni's nachos. And he's going to make a fortune off of this Howard Hughes was the perfect ruse the billionaire owned dozens of companies from film studios to aircraft and satellite manufacturers he had like other titans of industry quietly work with the government on sensitive projects in the past. So the CIA it sets up fake companies fake, PR operations, you name it. The cover story was so believable that there's a boom, in deep sea, mining and a bunch of other companies jump in and a whole new industry is created the whole operation is hidden in plain sight, the most. Important character in the operation was a ship, a real ship called the Hughes, glow marks floor that the CIA designed, there was a hidden compartment in the middle of the ship that had a claw system that descended unseen, unless you were underwater to the ocean floor to scoop up, the sub the design and construction took several years until finally in early nineteen seventy four six years after the submarine, sank, the glow, mar sailed to the site. The mission was underway, and then a Soviet intelligence trawler shows up out of the blue. Yeah. Pluck twist this, obviously unnerved the crew and intelligence officials back home, all those years of planning not to mention a potentially catastrophic diplomatic confrontation or worse at sea. According to declassified documents American. Officers directed the crew to prepare to defend the control world while sensitive spike, Whitman was destroyed. But the Soviets it turns out, they were just as as everyone else. But it turns out that they're just trying to figure out like the rest of the world. What is Howard Hughes doing? It's economic espionage, they're trying to figure out what's going on. The two ships actually spoke to each other via signal flags. What kind of vessel are you? The Soviets asked a deep ocean mining vessel. The Americans replied. The Soviets believed it in before leaving they sent one more message. I wish you all the best. But then few days later, another Soviet intelligence trawler comes in. And they hang out for the rest of the operation. If someone ever makes a big Hollywood movie of this story. This will be the moment, the second trawler showing up nearby where the audience stops eating popcorn and wild that Soviet intelligence trawler is circling around the claw gets to the bottom of the ocean scoops up that submarine and starts bringing it to the surface. The sub is halfway up to the ship's belly. When disaster strikes, two of the clause, fatigue and break. And a portion of the submarine falls back down to the bottom of the ocean. They salvage the operation in managed to get most of the sub into the ship, and that's Soviet trawler. Well, it toots one horn. Goodbye and takes off in the declassified report on the operation. The CIA wrote one can only. Conjecture the reaction and chagrin of Soviet authorities, when they later realized that to Soviet navy ships were on the scene, and in effect witnessed the recovery operation against their lost submarine. The moment came in one thousand nine hundred seventy five when the secret began to unravel after bitch, and pieces of Hughes's role were leaked to the Los Angeles Times syndicated columnist. Jack Anderson, put more of it together leading to even more questions from reporters the CIA struggled to contain the damage the drama even entered a new phrase into the cultural lexicon, after freedom of information requests began rolling in to the CIA as public affairs department. They say we can neither confirm nor deny this story that is known as the glow mar response. And that is when that phrase, enters the English language but back to the submarine any plans, the CIA had to go back and get the rest of it. Now, vanished the operation is over the Soviet Union tells us, if we try to go get the sub that it will be an active. War. So what did the United States alternately find on that sub what they find aboard that submarine, a large portion of it, and it's still classified to this day they did find Soviet nuclear warheads to infect? And they discovered the remains of six Russian submarines, they played the Soviet anthem and buried them at sea with full honors and they've videotaped this, the CIA has posted the recording on YouTube. Nine hundred ninety two just after the Soviet Union had fallen the CIA as then director Rick gates gave the tape to Russian President Boris Yeltsin and President, Yeltsin, when he saw it and saw how well sailors had been treated burst into tears, the Soviet Union had just fallen and they were marking point of new point in US Russian history. And so they gave this as a gesture of goodwill. I'm Mike Rosen walled. Thanks for listening. For more forgotten stories from history. Visit Washington Post dot com slash retro pod.

CIA Howard Hughes Soviet Union United States Pacific Ocean CIA Soviet navy Mike Rosen director Europe CIs museum Robert buyer navy Boris Yeltsin chess YouTube Hawaii Washington
1. The Rivals

The Big Steal

22:12 min | 7 months ago

1. The Rivals

"Remember Putin has stolen over a twenty year period the trillion dollars. The Russian people is question in my mind that he is a total at absolute criminal. And he's made more money from his crimes than any other criminal history across the Russian state at its highest level sanctioned the killing of a British citizen on the streets of our capital city. This is the story of the biggest theft in history. The big steel of the resources of the biggest country in the world Russia. By its own government Kremlin. Click the runs a country like his own Personal Bank. A click of bandits. It's also the story of how Russia is using every part of its state machinery and a war. Many of us don't even realize his taking place to subvert democracy worldwide. It's a war fought in many fronts. Sometimes with soldiers guns and missiles twenty percent of Georgia still occupied by Russia. The whole of crime me Awfully occupied by Russia since of the so-called annexation. The war is the claim which is an endless horrible luggy conflict resembling the trenches of the first World War is left that festering and supported and sponsored by Russia. Yesterday Malaysian Airlines flight. Seventeen took off from Amsterdam was shot down over Ukraine near the Russian border. Sometimes a new type of warfare. Cyber attacks and disinformation plus polonium chemical weapons. It is now clear that Mister Script Holland. His daughter were poisoned with a military grade. Nerve agent of the type developed by Russia citing there is strategic communications. There's influence where the capitoline this psychological operations all of these come together. In one seamless whole and cyber is just the technical representation of information that they seek to influence sowing the information environment with so many different explanations for any given thing that might be going on that people believe nothing in every demand except vocal military conflict. Russia is already in a state where the big steel has made some people very rich while others have been destroyed Mikhail Khordokovsky sentenced to nine years in prison for fraud and tax evasion conviction and raised eyebrows throughout much of the West because quarter Kofsky had been a longtime political rival of plausible Putin. The principal beneficiary of the big steel is Russia's President Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin and his behavior is ruthless Russia's still pretends US democracy and people Russia expected to be a democracy and there are still elections and Putin kills all his opponents Putin stands for two things KGB and organized crime that means search power and mommy among the casualties has been truth itself after the script. Paul attempted poisoning. I think the Russian ambassador came up with at least thirty five different versions of events all of which self-contradictory so by his own definition. You must've been lying and there's a bigger picture. Russia wants to rearrange the world to its own advantage. It's happening right now. We are not at war with Russia but Russia mentally is at war with us. If you watch Russian television if you pay attention to Russian media there is a constant nonstop attack on America and on the West there is constant portrayal of Europe as a failing society. All of this is a way of making sure that ordinary Russians are not somehow attracted to European society or not supportive of of the ideas or ideals of of Democracy Bats Anne Applebaum. She's journalist historian an expert on Russia and Eastern Europe with your more from an as the big steel takes us from the oilfields of Siberia to the courts in The Hague and Multi Million Dollar Mansions in London and New York. We'll meet academics businessmen politicians and those touched directly by the actions of the Russian regime. I'm Gavin ensler. Welcome to episode one of the big steal the rivals Vladimir Putin and Mikhail Khordokovsky in order to understand Russia in the present. We need to look at the recent past the seventy years. The Soviet Union and his Communist Empire stretched all the way from the Pacific Ocean to Germany. Russia itself has eleven timezones communism. Meant everything was run by the state and run mostly badly investment and technology lack way behind the west and so when the Soviet Union finally collapsed in Nineteen ninety-one a great nation was left with crumbling infrastructure out of date industries. No money and no clear way forward. The West had won the Cold War battle of ideas and some hope. Russia would embrace capitalism and liberal economic reforms but in the short term President Boris Yeltsin's government needed cash and quickly. Their answer was to sell off state-owned enterprises by nineteen ninety-six big outdated industries oil gas and steel were privatized that meant any Russian with access to serious money. A small band of men often with close ties to Yeltsin's Kremlin to control of key parts of the economy. One was Mikhail Khordokovsky young entrepreneur who had owned a cafe launched. A small bank made some money and played a role in Yeltsin's government by nineteen ninety-three. He was deputy minister for fuel and Energy and Kadyrov ski seized his big chance. His Bank menotep bought shares in the state run Yukos oil company but another vicious young Russian was also on the rise DENIA PUTIN. His background was equally humble while Khordokovsky chose Business Putin chose the KGB and politics rising from obscurity through the bureaucracy of Russia's second city Saint Petersburg to the inner circle of the Kremlin. But how on Earth did an obscure? Kgb. Colonel working as a spy in east. Germany is based in Dresden when the Iron Curtain fell end up as the richest man in the world monk Galliotti is a scholar who studies the former Soviet Union the new Russia and of course Vladimir Putin he was in many ways the unknown figure when he suddenly sort of became prime minister and then president is career up to the point of being tapped become president was essentially working for corrupt figures and having their back and clearing it messes and generally ensuring that they could get out of things all right. Whether it was the mayor of Leningrad. Them became Saint Petersburg whether it was people in the Kremlin administration when when he moved to Moscow or whether it was President Yeltsin and the people around him and he has crafted this myth retrospectively awe of Putin the Russian James Bond Putin the world be striding colossus but this is the whole point in modern Russia. This is a country. Which has I think ahead of the curve understanding how in modern politics image is all and the Russians. Were very good at playing the image games he was in the KGB. He likes to be thought of as the. Kgb's James Bond. But he was actually quite a boring bureaucrat in Dresden which is not powerhouse of anything really. There's this notion that he was somehow a Russian James Bond. When in many ways he was more of a miss moneypenny he was. Clark he was a handler of information. I mean He. He wrote reports that went to Moscow. We don't know if anyone actually read them. Although he was in the first after true which is meant to elite Sater's the Foreign Intelligence Department. He never got exactly be owned east. Germany Roy t Anthony. Your Melatonin in. May Two thousand four. Kgb Colonel Vladimir Putin with sworn in as Russia's President Zeph Shoot Studio Nashville. That's shoot. She's here we get holding their blessing but he was useful to manpower. I mean that's the that's the interesting people in power could turn to him and he could clean up their messes. He has turned out to be more van. The convenient placeholder. But I think people would assume if you look at the people who backed him and brought him not just Moscow but all the way through the prime minister's position to the presidency. This was a couple of powerful political and economic interests. Who felt the country was in a mess? Needed to have someone who could help bring order. Bring the state back. But at the same time who needed to be aware that he was basically governing in their interests and the interesting thing is that having been the loyal bag man up to the point where he was president theory very quickly once he was in the big office he gathered the oligarchs he made it clear to them or new rules of the game that they could hold onto their ill gotten gains but only so long as they kept out of politics and dibbled told so in in other words he was absolutely up to that point he was this rather sort of drags figure who everyone thought they could control but once he was in power he definitely demonstrated that they had misunderstood what they will getting what they were getting was a leader who exploited the weaknesses of changing Russia. To become the most powerful Kremlin leaders and Stalin and who changed the course of history and soon some of those rubles began to flow out of Russia and into the West now. We're not suggesting that. He was the first Russian to invest in London but when Roman Abramovich bought Chelsea Football Club for one hundred and forty million hands. Snip today but fortunate in two thousand and three. It made a real splash for many of us. It was the first time we heard the word. Oligarch use to describe some of these newly rich and powerful Russians Chelsea F C thrived under Abramovich Allah. Gok by the way is from ancient Greek meaning rule by a few. But it's come to signify a small group of Russians who made big money since the collapse of the Soviet Union in the nineteen ninety s and now often have powerful friends and great influence with the Kremlin by two thousand and three putting is firmly in power and he set out clearly how he wishes the oligarchy to behave meanwhile Mikhail Khodorkovsky and his partners have been hard at work. They've weathered the financial crisis in one thousand nine hundred ninety eight to transform you cost from a typically unenterprising. Soviet non enterprise into a stunning money. Earning success and disaster descent economist and senior fellow at the Atlantic Council and an expert of post-soviet Russia from ninety nine to two thousand four. You'll 'cause Was a star performer. In the Russia economy in every regard it had great corporate governance. It's stokes Skyrocketed and its production skyrocketed obey Did everything according to the Western. The bulk their international auditors. Day had McKenzie working on their Production they had a very nice proper ownership regulations and a corporate Governance so for bose find years. You can say it's a bad joke. Costed everything that you could. Desire from. Good Company are the time Cada Kofsky turned forty. He'd risen from humble Soviet childhood to become you Russia's richest man so how did Russia go from communism to Kleptocracy in just one generation the star-crossed rivals President Vladimir Putin and billionaire businessman Mikhail Color Kofsky were destined clash and to change the course of Russian history? It happened dramatically and publicly in two thousand and three live on Russian TV and the could only be one winner Putin would secure power in the Kremlin international influence and become the richest man in the world. Khordokovsky would be locked in a cage at a show trial and put in prison. For Ten years the company he and his partners built and transformed would be stolen from its shareholders Putin and his allies used to Russian state energy companies Rosneft minor player time and gas prom to swallow up Yukos. It was the most audacious theft of the big steel but it was just the beginning. The rivalry and the struggle between Khordokovsky and Putin showed two conflicting paths for modern Russia involving power corruption. Money and lies. It was also about competing visions for the future of a great nation which affects us all one of Russia becoming a reformed Western style democracy and mixed economy the other kleptocracy where money is power and power is money and a small click around President Putin holds tightly to both and it wasn't about one country Putin's Russia became one of the world's worst neighbors in Chechnya Georgia the Baltic countries Ukraine plus of course other adventures from Syria to Venezuela slowly world leaders began to notice. There was a Putin problem. Russia's illegal annexation of Crimea was the first time since the Second World War that one sovereign nation has forcibly taken territory from another in Europe. Putin's critics including some in Britain like Russian exile Alexander Litvinenko were fated to die or become ill in mysterious circumstances russia-watchers spoke of industrial scale money laundering and Organized Crime. Russian meddling in elections cyber warfare and carefully targeted propaganda throughout the big steel. We'll tell the story of Vladimir Putin's Russia of this enigmatic but ruthless leader and a billions of dollars of Russian state assets. That found their way into the pockets of some of the country's new super-rich including the bank accounts of Putin himself. And it's not just about him or them it's about us to. Here's an applebaum again. Russia is a one man autocracy. There are no checks and balances Putin may not decide every element of every plan or every plot but there is no question that he sets the direction that the state then heads above all Putin wants to stay in power and once you understand that he wants to stay in power and that he knows he doesn't have legitimacy in the sense that he's not democratically elected and he he knows he's reliant on a whole series of corrupt arrangements. Stay in power. Once you understand that a lot of his other policies make sense his foreign which is focused on the need to destroy the European Union and to end NATO as far as he can do it and to get the United States of Europe is directly related to his need to stay in power he sees the NATO as threats to him personally. Because when you add the countries of Europe together they're stronger than Russia but also because they represent a set of ideas that he finds to be extremely dangerous. The key to the big steel as with other scandals is to follow the money and as Ostlund tries to do just that my assessment is that Putin has made a fortune over one hundred to one hundred sixty billion dollars and it's mainly coming from Gaspar on my assessment is that Putin and his four closest friends have taken to ten to fifteen billion dollars out of gas from each year and at the invitation about Esma from from other companies as well so say that they've taken twenty billion dollars a year all over Russia's economy and the hypocrisy tone to keep it abroad because they know that they won't be are allowed to keep anything they lose power and all together we account to four eight hundred billion to one trillion dollars over Russian dark money abroad and say but one third of this. Oh belongs to To put in France so this is the big ifs kleptocracy that we have seen. It's country in which the worlds of crime business and politics became frighteningly interconnected for so long. It's certainly a kleptocracy. The guys at the top of the system have stolen for years and continue to steal at mark. Galliotti says that if they're going to run kleptocracy they better do it convincingly from the Russians point you they do not think that in the current environment they can make any more friends in the West. As far as I'm concerned they're faced with a choice between capitulation pulling after Crimea and letting Ukraine go its own way and so forth or continuing to fight so they have decided well. If we're going to be considered to be the bullies in the playground we need to sing like the biggest baddest toughest bullies there. So no one will mess with us and I think that is a lot of the calculation. It's actually that they want. Russia look formidable. Because we have to remember. This is a country with an economy. The size of Italy's there is trying to punch on a global level and to do that. You essentially need to look much tougher than you. Really are looking much tougher than you are using your opponent's strengths. By turning them against him are the classic techniques of a Judo Master and Judas Sport in which Putin excels plus. Here's one other attribute if we look at the phenomenal brutality of his war against Chechnya. If we look at the spate of assassinations and I'm not just talking about discreet bounds. Yonkers that we know about. But the Chechen fund-raisers gunned down in Turkey and so forth. This is clearly not a man who has a problem with violence. We want to end this week's episode with an explanation of how the series came about in twenty fourteen. An independent tribunal ruled unanimously Vladimir. Putin's regime used this national courts to bankrupt. Yukos share the assets among state companies and eliminate a political rival because Khordokovsky who was placed in jail for ten years of false charges of tax evasion and fraud in twenty sixteen a district court in the Netherlands overturned the original ruling. But just last month the hey court of Appeal reinstated the original ruling. And what is the world's largest arbitration award fifty billion dollars the former shareholders in. Yukos want their story told as part of the big steel. We're grateful for their assistance and funding. Which is made this series possible. Next time on the big steal the remarkable rise of Mikhail Khordokovsky. Yes was cafe. I set up my own small business which was cafe for young people but everybody thought all. That'll said okay a few years. We'll give you a few years and then we end up in prison at the end of that. So how did a small-time cafe owner become Russia's most successful businessmen and why did he fall foul of Putin they're public confrontation on Russian? Tv was only part of the story. There were so many reasons to go after cops he wanted to build a private pipeline and he wanted to sell your cost to Chevron or or Exxon who did not want that being western France in Russian economy he stood for transparency is stood for efficiency. So you can say about COULDA COSCO was for a poster boy for breaking really hates. The big steel was presented by me Gavin Wrestler and produced by Martin Points Roberts at fresh air production. Please make sure you subscribe to the series. So you don't miss an episode.

President Vladimir Vladimirovi Russia Russia Mikhail Khordokovsky Russia Russia Soviet Union KGB Germany Europe president President Boris Yeltsin Moscow Anne Applebaum Yukos theft Malaysian Airlines Ukraine Cada Kofsky
 A Profound Economic Problem

Deep Background with Noah Feldman

30:20 min | 5 months ago

A Profound Economic Problem

"From Pushkin Industries. This is deep background. The show where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. I'm Noah Feldman as the corona virus pandemic continues. The economic situation is becoming more dire by the day not only have an enormous number of businesses closed but more people have filed for unemployment here in the United States faster than any other. I am in our history. Meanwhile no one can save for certain when this will end. What should the government be doing to help our massive bailout or stimulus packages inject money into the economy actually effective? What other options are there facing us to discuss these extremely pressing questions? We're joined by Lawrence Summers of Harvard. University Larry was chief. Economist of the World Bank. He was First Deputy Secretary of the Treasury under President Clinton and then Secretary of the Treasury. He was president of Harvard University. And then as an adviser. Barack Obama he helped pull our country through another financial crisis. The one in two thousand and eight. We spoke on Monday afternoon. Larry without hyperbole. I think it's fair to say that there's no one alive who knows more than you do about bailouts stimulus not only in theory. But it's real world implementation and I really WanNa hear. You are big picture and small picture account of where we are and where we're going here. You've said that the two big uncertainties facing us are. How long will this last? And how fast can economy reopen? And I agree that those are radically uncertain questions now. Do you have something that you want to stay on. Either of those topics. Start with this. This is a profoundly different economic problem than any that I have dealt with in the past or than anyone else has dealt with in the past. All the various problems we have dealt with in the past were fundamentally about demand and fundamentally about whether the economy could produce the demand and keep everything going in a way that would enable adequate employment. This is quite different problem. This is a problem of supply. The primary reason why the. Us economy is weak right now. Is that thirty percent of us. Basically can't work for only because we can't work in our workplace. We can't take our work home. And that's the main reason why I'll put his down and unemployment is up so any idea that this can. All be solved with sufficiently ingenious fiscal policy or monetary policy is a confusion. The role of fiscal monetary policy is a palliative that maintained a measure of spending power for those who are unable to be paid and to try to maximize the potential of the economy to recover when health conditions are met but the fundamental constraint on the situation lies in the area of health policy not in the area of financial policy or economic policy are used the word palliative. So let me. Just get some clarity around that because palliative sometimes sounds like. We're just making you feel better until you die. I take it. What you mean is that it's effectively. Use a medical metaphor life support. The economy would die without the kind of bailout funds that are being passed along. But they're not a stimulus in the they're not gonNA stimulate further demand. The only thing that's going to change that if I hear you correctly is actually reopening businesses so that people can get back out as soon as it's healthy to do that. And then that would eventually re stimulate the economy. Almost they might stimulate demand but stimulating. Demand doesn't do anything. If supply is constrained I e so the example as I badly want to go to a bar right now I really went and go to a bar so the demand is there. The problem is the bars are not open. So there's no supply available from the story of Toilet. Paper is actually illuminating. There's a major toilet paper shortage that many of us have encountered when we've gone to the grocery store. The original theory that was offered for that shortage was people were hoarding. Just in case if that were the correct theory at a certain point after people had hoarded enormous supplies they would stop by and the problem with naturally solve itself so we might even get a toilet paper glut in the stores because people didn't need to buy anymore. Given the inventories they accumulate. That is not actually what has happened. What has actually happened. Is it turns out that people are spending a much larger fraction of their time in their homes rather than in their offices or in restaurants or bars and it turns out that the nature of the toilet paper that is sold for people to use at home is different than institutional toilet paper and so in fact we have a genuine shortage of home toilet paper which is a higher software quality and we have a potential lot of institutional toilet paper and fundamentally our problem in the toilet paper example is that not all the demand for home toilet paper could be fulfilled if all we do is increased purchasing power and we don't increase supply we're not gonNA increase the level of output. Got It so even if I were prepared to spend twenty bucks a role on toilet paper. It doesn't matter because the supply is at present. Not There for the right kind of other paper right or to put it in different way. If you gave purchasing power to people it wouldn't do anything to raise toilet paper production because there's no demand for the kind of toilet paper that can be produced and it would just go to bid up the price of the kind of toilet paper that is already in excess demand so the point is that in order to increase the overall level of output in a the economy. The really fundamental problem is increasing supply. And that means creating situations where people can go back to work in productive ways so some of that would be creating situations where people were back at work and therefore the demand for toilet paper was again filling. It's normal pattern. Some of it would be addressed if you could find ways of converting institutional toilet paper production capacity into the production of soft home toilet paper but fundamentally you have to address the problem on the supply side. What are the implications of that analysis? For what will happen when any of we are able to in some gradual stepped way. Start getting workers back into the productive parts of the economy where they can help restore the supply would seem to imply that the difficulty of getting the match up and running would be addressed. Maybe more quickly than under circumstances of more ordinary demand crisis is that a fair implication potentially. That's right I have a use. The example of what happens in Truro Massachusetts where I'm speaking from right now. Truro is a vacation town on the tip of Cape Cod. Every winter truro has what a certain sense is a terrible depression. It's employment level it's GDP a go down by more than fifty percent and every summer it rises up. And so I think if we're able to prove Nand the destruction of entreprises through bankruptcy and liquidation. I think there's the prospect that if we can get health conditions back to normal than we can move back fairly quickly. In terms of economic performance I think it's basically misguided in light of this analysis that we're spending trillions and trillions on broad gauge economic and financial policies. And we're scrimping on health policies that have the prospect for bringing back the economy faster. The overwhelming priority should be every possible experiment in terms of developing more test in terms of alternative Contact tracing systems anything that can put the health crisis behind us is by far the highest payoff investment in this moment and that's obviously in part a matter of dollars but it's also a matter of proper organization. Larry With respect to your seasonal analogy. It's one of the more hopeful things that I've heard and I just want to ask you a question about it. A few weeks ago I interviewed for the PODCAST. One of your colleagues in the Economics Department at Harvard. Stephanie Stern Ceva and one of the points that she made is as economic relationships breakdown. As people are out of work the transaction cost of getting people back to recreate those relationships rises and so it becomes hard to do now in your example of. Truro or any vacation community which in a sense as a big decline out of season. Usually long-term economic relationships are retained even over the out-of-season period of time. Right people have the shops that they go to and they have the caretakers who work in their homes and their contractors and so forth and so on. Is there a danger? Do you think in this particular circumstance that the reestablishment of those relationships will be much more difficult in the wake of the work stoppages that we have now than it is in a seasonal response situation. It depends on how long it takes and it depends on the nature of the relationships in Truro Massachusetts or occasion town as you move from July to September and then you go around again until July improbably two kinds of things that have been there the shafts at the restaurants and they're the shops that I remain loyal to and turns out that people have long memories and they do other things during the summer and then they find their way back then. There are other kinds of relationships the waitresses in the restaurants where there probably isn't such a long memory but where there isn't such great cost to a restaurant to having a different workforce of waitresses in twenty twenty than they had in twenty nineteen. But I think it's easy to Overdo this idea that we're doomed because a relationship has been separated for some substantial injured. Ill and I think it very much wrong to think that people have to continue being in the workplace. It's a ubiquitous feature for example over decades of automobile companies that in recessions quote laid off automobile worker who remained attached to those companies who received significant unemployment insurance and then when demand pick back up they were rehired so I think we need to protect the people. There are more market mechanisms. That people appreciate for protecting other aspects. Suppose I am a shopkeeper in a shopping center and I can't open because I'm a clothing store and I'm not deemed to be essential journey the corona period. I will stop paying my rent now. It's possible that my landlord will evict me and that my shop will be lost on the other hand my landlords likely to look at the situation and say well of Iot victim. Who am I going to get to come into his place in the midst of this and this will probably be over in a few months and he'll be able to pay rent again if he was before will work some solution out with respect to the period where he couldn't earn revenue and the relationship will be preserved. So I am more optimistic about the economy's ability to remain resilient. If the health problems can be put behind us then some of my friends are we'll be back in just a moment. Deep background is supported by autumn with an unbeatable selection of audio books on history science psychology. You name it. I use audible constantly. I love it. I'm right now in the middle of listening to Hillary Mann tells the mirror and the light. The much anticipated conclusion to her. Thomas Cromwell trilogy and I gotTa Tell you is gripping you can download titles from audible and listen online anytime. Any can't decide what to listen to. Don't worry you can your credits for up to a year and use them to binge on a whole series. If you'd like you can listen with the audible at home or on the go anytime anywhere. Visit audible dot com slash background checks background to five. Zero Zero Dash five zero zero. Larry I find it very compelling to say that we would very quickly recoup any investment that we made in technology that would let us get back to work and testing is a really good example of that The challenge that I'm struggling within that context is sort of why we aren't doing more at that level and as far as I can make out the reason seems to be a perception. Maybe an accurate perception that they're a whole number of bottlenecks in enabling testing on the kind of scale of on the order of millions of tests today in the United States. That would be a necessary to get this going now. That's not an argument for not trying. But it does raise the question of real world distribution bottlenecks and I mean things like the number of swabs. The number of chemical reagents available and there could of course be technological innovations. That would let us do these things. Faster and with other techniques and of course in principle. That's all possible but it raises the question of timescale and maybe what a lot of people are thinking is. It doesn't make sense to invest heavily in this given the improbability of success. Let's be concrete for our lawsuit. Gdp as consequences of this crisis is about eighty billion dollars a week so we accelerate the recovery path by one week. That's worth a were in. Use that war. Any number of anybody is remotely. Thinking of in terms of testing economies. Were remarkably flexible things. And they do respond to incentives. They may not respond in three days. They really do respond over time. This is not a time to be worried about. Efficient pricing of swaps given the magnitude of the stakes. This is a reason to be trying. Every if the probability of success on something that's worth eighty billion dollars a week is only one four. Let's twenty billion dollars a week. It's been estimated that tests cost fifty dollars at fifty dollars a test. You can do a lot of tests for a very small fraction of twenty billion dollars a week and that's assuming it's one week with the point five percent probability of success. I WanNa ask you about the question of who takes the haircut in this bailout. One of the points that you've made repeatedly is that there's real fundamental loss. That's happening under these circumstances that this isn't the kind of set of economic problems can be solved or mitigated just by printing money or lowering interest rates. So that means there is real lost. It's going to take place. In the economy. The bailout process is just beginning and inevitably corporate America will have its handout seeking bailouts. And you've had lots of firsthand experience with this. What's your view? Should the airline. Shareholders have to take a big hit here or should the airlines be bailed out as after nine eleven and so on and so forth for other industries including maybe most prominently the oil and gas industry. I think there's almost no reason. Why shareholder me insulated from these losses. Shareholders are people who invested money with the expectation that unlike people who put their money in a bank or what. Us government financial instruments. They would earn a premium of four five percent a year and the reason they would earn that premium is that they were taking the risk that if something predictable and uncertain happened they would lose money or that. If something unpredictable and uncertain happened they would lose money that they were being compensated for subjecting themselves to what Donald Rumsfeld called unknown unknowns and now an unknown annot has happened and they got paid for taking this risk and it seems to me it would be very wrong to try to insulate the from that risk all the more because the distribution of shareholders is a distribution of people who are far far far more affluent than most American citizens. Now there will certainly be cases where you can't really protect workers without protecting the Andhra prices of which there apart so just as there are unintended victims of necessary actions in wartime there are unintended beneficiaries of necessary financial bailouts but the objective should be to maintain economic activity for the benefit of customers and workers not for the benefit of shareholders or lenders who have accepted substantial risk in return for over many years having been paid a premium interest rate. The airline industry in a way is a classic instance because there are half a dozen instances in the last twenty years when airlines have gone through bankruptcy. Their debts have been written down their share. Prices have been written way way down and they've continued to fly and most of us as we stood in line to get on board. Had No idea whether it was bankrupt or not so. We need to stop confusing bankruptcy with the destruction of enterprises productive capacity. Just in in support of your argument Larry. I think it's even fair to say that pandemic doesn't count as an unknown unknown in Donald Rumsfeld's formulation it's known unknown. You know from the time that I was in seventh grade. A central part of our curriculum was pandemic is a thing. It has occurred. Historically can occur again their circumstances of globalization that can give rise to it and we've seen various potential pandemics being limited or constrained that may have led people to make a mistake in terms of the probabilities of an actual pandemics breaking out. But that such a thing could exist was certainly very clear to everybody and should have been therefore known unknown rather than an unknown unknown. I think that's right. The idea that we could have. A pandemic should have been in people's minds most of the leading financial authorities who were involved in the effort to establish new financial regulation. Said sometime in the last few years that they thought we would never have a financial crisis as serious as two thousand and eight in their lifetimes. One of the many reasons why I didn't join that view was aware that a pandemic flu of the kind we'd had in nineteen eighteen. It would probably be an immense financial crisis in that. That was a significant risk. So I think you're right Larry before I let you go. I just want to ask you one last sort of macroeconomic question. That's puzzling me. And it's corona adjacent. Let's say and that is the role that the United States has just played. The president trump has just played in attempting to broker a deal with a other large petroleum producing companies to shore up oil prices. Now on the one hand you know there are lots of people in the United States who are working in energy related. Businesses are oil related businesses. And so I suppose this could be justified on the grounds that it's an attempt to help out American workers and shore up in American industry on the other hand. It's sort of looks like the United States participating or it is the United States being very directly in the kind of cartelization that historically we as a country have been at least publicly. Skeptical about the United States was never a member of OPEC and at least officially. Never talk the talk of how great it is to assure. The prices would be protected from real world changes in In this instance in the demand side rather than the supply side. Can you just give me a you know Larry Summers reaction to this? Was this something the United States should have done. And if so why it can be a little hard to see from the outside. I think if I had been the policymaker I would not have done it. Essentially for the reason you describe this cartel we don't usually believe in supporting cartels and it's not like our only interest is as an exporter. We have moved in the last few years. And so now we're just about self sufficient but that means the US consumer interest is about comparable to the US producer interest in the consumer interest of course loses when we push prices up motion. The other winners from higher prices are places like Russia and Saudi Arabia. Where it's not at all clear that our national interests are served by their becoming wealthier. So I would not have done this at said. There is a problem. Which is the tendency towards? What economists call a COBWEBS CYCLE? And if you allow the price to collapse than the profits collapsed and then the funds for investment collapsed and then down the road. You have a big supply shortage and the price spikes right back up. So there is that concern. I think it would be better matt by reinforcing investment during this difficult period. I also think that your attachment idealistic on these kinds of arrangements I remember when I served in President Clinton's administration being the dissenting voice but the dissenting voice. Who Lost the argument when the United States was an enthusiastic participant in the organization of aluminum cartel with the rationale being to protect American aluminum producers who employed a fair number of people and to be supportive of Russia at a time? We're trying to support President Yeltsin. And they were a substantial aluminum exporter. So I think it would be wrong to think that this was anything. Like the first time the United States said bins substantially supportive of a cartel in a key global commodity on grounds of price stability. Although the rationale here may also be domestic rationale with a goal of helping an industry with which the President has party are seen as being pretty closely aligned. If I can say something the opposite of idealistic as I said in the in the aluminum example that was also part of the calculation. I'm with the economics profession in a lack of enthusiasm for cartels. But it'd be a mistake to overstate the strength of the American tradition in opposing. Larry thank you very much for your analysis and your time. There's a lot to think about their some of it. A little more hopeful than some it a little more pessimistic than other things that I've heard but all of it deeply insightful and informed by your distinctive combination of knowing the theory and having done the reality so thank you very very much. Thank you speaking to Larry. Summers you get a strong sense of both how serious the challenges are that are facing our economy now and also a hint of greater optimism than some other sources have expressed about the probabilities of our being able to turn it around on the one hand. Larry is crystal clear that this is not the same kind of economic crisis that we face before and that therefore government money to ordinary people and to businesses is not going to take the form of a stimulus that will get things going again to the contrary Larry says very very clearly. It's just to keep us going for now. It's not going to turn things around. That's a serious serious concern and one that I think is all too often missed by people who think about this crisis in terms of past crises on the other hand. Larry also thinks that there's an argument for seeing this crisis as a bit like a seasonal stop pitch in an industry that operates the seasons. And if he's right about that than our capacity to restart the economy. Once health and safety concerns have been alleviated may actually be substantially greater than other analysts. Have suggested there's a bit of each in Larry's analysis at some sense of the gravity of the situation. Some cautious optimism about the potential for the future. You can be sure that we're GONNA continue to stay very closely on top of the story of the economic consequences of the current pandemic and how we bounce back from it until the next time I speak to you be careful. Be Safe and be well. Deep background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries our producer. Jean Kahn with research help from zooey win. Mastering is by Jason Gambro Martinez. Her showrunner is Sophie. Mckibben theme music is composed by Louis. Kara special thanks to the Pushkin Brass Malcolm Guel Jacob Weisberg and mail. I'm Noah felt. I also write a regular column for Bloomberg opinion. Would you can find Bloomberg Dot com slash FELTON discovered? Bloomberg's original slate of PODCASTS. Go TO BLOOMBERG DOT COM slash podcast. You can follow me on twitter. At Noah are felt this is deep background. We just want to be treated fairly. I don't care what he says. He's not getting mobile. Hi everyone is mainly. Msnbc correspondent and host of a new podcast into America featuring the journalist of NBC News. It's a show about politics about policy and about the power that both had shaping the lives of the American people each week. We're going into America to tell voters stories. New episodes drop every Thursday search for into America. Wherever you're listening right now and subscribe.

Larry United States president Lawrence Summers Noah Feldman Harvard Pushkin Industries America Truro Massachusetts President Clinton World Bank Barack Obama Harvard University Treasury Donald Rumsfeld Bloomberg First Deputy Secretary producer Truro
A High-Stakes Standoff in Belarus

The Daily

39:02 min | 2 weeks ago

A High-Stakes Standoff in Belarus

"From The New York Times I'm Michael Barr. This is the daily. A. Weeks, tens of thousands of people have been taking to the streets of Belarus to demand the resignation of their President Alexander Lukashenko. Today. My colleague Yvan Nature Perenco on how Europe's last dictator came to power. And his fight to hold onto it. It's Wednesday September. Second. New you're based in Russia in Moscow. So where are you now? I'm currently in Belarus. It's country about nine point five, million sandwiched between Russia and the European Union. I'm here to cover the contested the election of the incumbent President Alexander Lukashenko in Belarus President Alexander Lukashenko has one of the presidential vote with seventy nine point nine percent according to the latest exit poll. His reelection has inspired people to protest against him because they felt that result that was announced eighty percent of his favorites. Totally. Congruent with. Builders. Club. International observers have never seen any of the elections in Belarus as free and fair and today there were also widespread reports of violations at the ballot box. So he has won with more than eighty percent nobody is going to believe that. We see days of trotskyists that I being violently crackdown by look favor bust security service was rubber bullets, and stun grenades and everything. During that time. Look himself is basically going choir and we don't really know what is his interpretation of was being going on because we're seeing that maybe he's just going to resign and suddenly on Saturday nights almost one week after the election day we learn that. He will actually give rally. Gathering his supporters in the Central Minsk. And what happens at that rally? So. As I come to rally to the main Independence Square. I walk through the side streets that lead to it and I see the all this coach buses sparked on the sides with groups of people standing. So it becomes clear that people are best in. That many people use not most of them. Didn't come their own will. Friend. Shortly into the rally. Kushenko himself takes the stage. And I was very curious to see what he was about to say because afterward I saw on the streets, the police used rubber bullets, tear gas and stun grenades injuring many and. It would be interesting to see how he would justify. Here. We're both. A. And what she did was actually the opposite. What's he did he said that I own this country. and. This people in the position they are rats and their trash and their foreign paid conspirators who just want to subvert the stability that we have earned with sweat. Sucking. Suckle. Get to. Chalk. Doc He says and remember. If you destroy SHANECO. If you destroy your first president, this will be the beginning of your end. Shovel. He was basically saying that I created your country and you should be so grateful that you should allow me to rule over you for the rest of my life. Even when Lukashenko says that he created. What does he mean it? Is that accurate? While it is accurate in the sense because of course, he's the first president of this country. must go the hammer and sickle live Lord for the last time and an era comes to an end. The red flag of Soviet communism still flu last weekend but it flew over a country that no longer exists. So bill becomes independent and nine, hundred, ninety, one when the Soviet. Union collapses and people euphoric about quiring dependence. The own flag they dented so you The ability to develop their own language. But. Shortly after they realized that democracy, for instance, the Dave acquired also brings Kale's he's made a significant portion of the elderly induce in the country and not only living in poverty barely surviving. And the economy's not working well because. As the rest of the Soviet Union the Belorussian economy was a planned economy with no market with prices set up for a single center from Moscow. Essentially now you need to transform this huge corner me. In. So market economy, and then the process, a lot of people end Belarus feel a little pain right and social welfare programs cannot even begin to keep up with the rate of inflation because factories begin to close the salaries actually they go down on by nights ninety four, they seem willing to exchange the freedoms earned. For a sense of stability. That would bring peace to their families. So. Are. Presidential election is cold. The first one in the country's history, and this is the time where young Alexander Lukashenko comes to the stage, go to movies to the speed, and even who is Lukashenko in this moment as people in Belarus struggling to figure out what a post Soviet Belarus even looks like are realizing that they crave stability. He's someone comes from a very modest background. From. A small town in eastern Belarus. Raises quickly through the ranks to become a collective farm manager. and Dan Gauges into politics. Over. on He seems to be very driven and very charismatic. And people listen to him. People like him especially people in the villages who have suffered the most. Unheeded attempts to talk to them directly by telling them. that. I can improve your. Right now. I can take your lives back. To where they were when you enjoyed them so much when the Soviet Union was kind of the height of its power. and. So how did the people respond to this campaign message this cut backward-looking Soviet. Message they like it. Radical Anti Corruption Crusader Donda look into is poised for clear win with his country's economy and rapid decline Lukashenka vowed to purge the top echelons of power and undo market reforms Wednesday election. On he quickly begins to deliver on his promises. He increases people salaries. Introduces state control over prices, I e councils, menu of the market economy reforms that introduced before him. He stops privatization of government enterprises keeps them in the hands of the states. People very happy because they feel the change immediately being on their standards of living improved. But what people fail to notice is that the main reason why? She's able to deliver them. was because Russia has been. Subsidizing essentially the Belorussian economy through a scheme that this. Kisses Skim Oil for kisses that's very evocative. What does it mean? Basically means that Russia being an energy superpower was essentially giving Bellarusse, large amounts of oil that Belarus could refine. And sell it. To European markets. And keep the difference. So by doing that. Russia was essentially trying to tie Belarus to Moscow. So Russia is using essentially free oil as tether to this former republic and in return Russia gets the goodwill, the Brotherhood kind of loyalty of Belarus. Well. Also because. The Belorussian eater. Realizes perfect. You're well that the well-being of his country and the goodwill of his citizens depends on that whole scheme So he realizes that his own political existence depends on Russia. In my sense Yvonne, during this period though the West, the United States in particular is watching all of these former Soviet republics very warily and. Trying to make sure that they don't slide back into old Soviet ways and they don't get too close to Russia because they wanna make sure that they stay on a path toward democracy. So how does that play out when it comes to Lukashenko and delivers? So what happens is that he realized is pretty quickly. This kind of wariness that you've described. Is An asset for him that he can trade in between Russia and the West that he can dance between the two. Praising and criticizing both kind of alternating. Because Russia doesn't want him to go to the West and the West doesn't want him to go to Russia and he can benefit on that. And he does that throughout his career muster for the for instance, in ninety six referendums over in the former Soviet republic of Belarus the controversy at whipped up still blows strong. He conducts a very controversial referendum they give him fog greater POWs IVA parliament plus a fresh five-year term of office that increases his powers. Dramatically, the president said dictatorship allegations were groundless on basically becomes his first step toward the quiring the royal powers. And Western powers ostracized him essentially. And the following year. He signs this union state agreements with Russia in a grand ceremony held inside Kremlin's Grand Palace Boris. Yeltsin stressed the integration treaty between Russia and neighboring Belarus allows both countries retain this Auburn team during the ceremony the two presidents of Russia and Belarus Lukashenko on President Yeltsin. The time they kiss each other. which becomes this kind of very symbolic moment for the two countries. Bellarusse President Lukashenko's solely needs economic help his country's centrally planned. Soviet style economy is in even worse shape than Russia's. Russia sees it as though it basically rebuilds its old empire again. They say it's a good deal for both countries. The West is not so sure. And the west of course is watching closely what is happening? And becomes increasingly willing to accept Lukashenko. With his new. semi-dictatorial powers. Because, they don't want him to be completely swallowed by Russia. They want Belarus to stay an independent state. So the West becomes more willing to accept him as he challenges their conventions in their desires because he seen as so powerful. Of course over. Time. Is His powers he removes term limits. He stifles all remnants of free press. He disperses rallies he kills his opponents actually he killed his opponents. While it is widely accepted, and Belarus and internationally at Mr Liquor Schenker at least he was complicit in the deaths of several of his political rivals on the end of nine, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty s several of his former ally ice disappear and what happens next is that they're all this allegations that he did it on. Some evidence has emerged that corroborated this claims and this evidence is pretty strong. So he's becoming more and more emboldened in this dance. He's making the West fear that he's going to be in partnership with Russia, and that means the West, feels like it needs. To Accept Tim and give him what he wants and what he ends up wanting is more power and he's getting. Yeah. That's right. But by repeating comes in one, thousand, nine, hundred, nine. Advisory. Putin is a different type of president than his predecessor. Boris Yeltsin. He's much bolder. He's much more pragmatic on. He wants tangible things from Lukachenko instead of just kisses instead of just telling him that he's loyal. Unfocused link with this is a very precarious position because he actually cannot give beaten anything. He fears that if he actually gives Putin for instance, the right to deploy an airbase in the country. That would essentially cancel out his value in the eyes of the West because it would mean who's just giving everything over to Russia yeah and he would basically get trapped in Mr Putin's hands. And become his loyal servant in truth rather than just words as it used to be before. So Lukashenko's fate of that. But of course, he's more afraid of Putin's apparent desire to control. Belarus. Directly, which would diminish his role not only in the eyes of the West but then the eyes of his own people, there's no need for Lukashenko if Putin is in control, right? So, of course, he doesn't want that to happen. And he's basically being cornered. From all sides And then. We begin with the growing crisis in Ukraine following Russia's invasion of Crimea Ukraine twenty fourteen Russia annexes. The Crimean Peninsula from Ukraine Ukraine's interim president says, Russia's invasion isn't just a threat, but rather a declaration of war most of the countries around the world believe Russia is guilty of a major breach of international law. The annexation of Crimea political crisis took an ominous turn late last week when Russia deployed troops to. Crimea effectively taking control of that part of southeastern. Ukraine we'll continue to look at the range of ways we can help our Ukrainian friends but she their universal rights and the security prosperity and dignity that they deserve. And of course, by Zimmer Tuten, is looking for his old ally. Closest ally actually Belarus Lukashenko right to support him in this dire situation after all these years of billions of dollars sent to Belarus to prop up look shing regime or he's he seems like the most natural person to call and say please speak out on behalf of Russia even though we have just colonized part of Ukraine. And this is especially important because. Lukashenko represents a former Soviet states. So he would be someone like you approving. Russia, Ukraine. which would make a huge symbolic difference not just for Putin but for the whole post-soviet. Space. So Putin waits for it. I Lukashenko fuses to big ignites he Russian and he refuses to approve Russia's actions. So in this moment Lukashenko's clearly choosing not to stand with Russia and if I'm, Putin? I'm expecting him to because this is why I have been investing in Belarus for so long for just a moment like this. Of course. And each understand what kind of man putinist if someone betrays him like this, he will never forget. So. What is the fallout for Lukashenko from that decision? While the relationship between Russia and Belarus becomes increasingly sour Russia decides to reconsider the all kisses scheme. In Twenty fifteen rush initiates a package of reforms that basically canceled out. That's Kim. So that's his punishment. I would say, so yes, and so Putin polls plug that has been Essential to this Belorussian economy and essential to Lukashenko's success. Of course, because all state enterprises. Cushion corden privatize. The are still grossly inefficient So bellarusse enters into a period of. Sustained Economic Stagnation It doesn't full of the cliff the economy. But people realize that essentially the economy will never grow with this model and there's no way to prop up. It's only gonNA get worse. And what about the people of Fellas? How have they responded to? Kushinka since the economy entered this period of stagnation. People become increasingly fatigued with their country being frozen and this past. They look into the future, the travel abroad they one to see bustling live here they want to see some development. They WANNA see some prospects that they can fit in that. Don't want a few inferior to all these people and they have to deal with in the countries around Belarus. Lukashenko is not able to respond to that because he himself is stuck in the Soviet past. So, with the presidential election, coming up this year people's patient begins to run out. Their frustration begins to spill over from their internal thoughts into the public life. and. People Begin to realize that it's time for Change and. Back. This podcast is supported by Qube the streaming service with fresh original stories that unfolded minutes Kuby has been nominated for ten emmy awards including the Thriller Most Dangerous Game, starring Liam Hemsworth the Piercingly Funny Comedy Dummy starring in a Kendrick topical and intense drama. Free Sean starring Stefan James Laurence Fishburne, and the shocking drama survive with Sophie Turner. Watch shows like you've never seen told in minutes download now for your free two week trial this is Monica Drake Assistant. Managing, editor at the new. York Times. We are living through a moment of global uncertainty with life changing. So quickly, we know that journalism quality while sourced fact checked journalism can play a crucial role in helping US navigate it all we're reporting on the virus for more than twenty countries providing live updates in answering pressing questions. Our journalists are writing about how the pen to make has intensified racial inequalities. In America and are following protests against police violence, which have become a global civil rights movement across our newsroom. Our colleagues are also thinking about how we can adapt the new demands of daily life. As we seek new ways to find joy coverage. This comprehensive would be impossible to accomplish without our subscribers. If you'd like to subscribe good ny times, Dot com slash subscribe. Even I wonder if you can describe the lead up to this election and your sense of when it becomes clear. that. The People Villa Reuss want change. Why what happens is that Lukashenko himself is clearly unaware of the change of mood inside his own country But some people are some people actually inside his own in the circle. For. Instance is former ambassador to the United States this former foreign minister. He to turn on him and run against him as does the had of Russia owned bank? But this is just the beginning. The main thing is that their campaigns become very popular and people turn into support them in huge numbers and apart from this to you have another person. Popular Video. Blogger yuck she'll get you come all skewed. Putting you might say you you're. His name is city, Gates? Speak. Can do better presidium and he travels with his camera around the country and he interviews. People who were supposed to be the power base of flicker Schenker's machines. That lessees might live but. Shown. For small towns, people at factories and all this people. They just complain endlessly. Lushenko. Cox Guscott. Come. Double Tara con she she'd call him cockroach that she needs to kill. Keraly. I need productivity dialed a visitor tissue to see the call him someone who just sucks their blood someone whom the heat and they say openly. This guy applauds oldest stuff on youtube and this stuff gets to be very popular and he realized that maybe he wants want to run himself. He decides to run. As compared progresses he becomes increasingly popular too. So you have. At least three candidates that are very popular and this is the time but Lukashenka realize that something is going on and this campaign is actually going to be different from all the others. And as three candidates emerge, he sees that actually there's been some error in his vision of his own country. and. Instead of accepting it, he decides it's just to get rid of it all. So, what he does is he either jails rivals including the blogger that has been cruising the country talking to farmers or he forces them to free the country. So at this point, he's essentially running unopposed. That's what you think's. By reality proves to be more. Complicated. With elections approaching hopes rest on this woman shoulders the wife of the blogger site not Karnowski freightliner Lana Tika. Hopes that she'll be presidents have been a roof. She decides that she will run against Mr Lukaschenko instead of her husband. I run instead of him not because I need. Powell because I'm the politician and want to become president and country. Iran to support my husband. So how does look treat her? He basic dismisses her a somebody who is not been worth talking about. He. Says that she's not his most powerful rival. That others actually more threatening. A member of Lukashenko's presidential administration says that the in his office. There's no toilet for women. that. It's just not the quipped that this is not i. mean they're basically trying to be very insulting and demeaning, and he basically wants to portray her as the nobody. And is he fundamentally right that she doesn't pose a threat to him Well. Of course, not because as we saw before the election day, it was the largest rally seen in Belarus since independence from the Soviet Union. She was able to gather thousands of people at her rallies across the country. Name. And people genuinely came to see her even though Belarus is a police state If for instance, if you work for a state run company and as you know like most of the common economies state owned. Then, you risk losing your job if you appear at a position rally. and. The fact that people still showed up despite the oldest risks means that January supported her and all this other candidates that jailed and throughout the country. They. Also supported her they said that she is going to be all united opposition candidate. So they threw their support behind her back And apart from that. Particular think about Belarus is that bulls are band here. You cannot have Paul so are no polls that would say what is actually look a schenker's real approval rating. But in the each of the Internet you can do polls online multiple polls have been conducted and some of them have shown. The support for Mr Lukashenko to be as low as three percents. Wow So very much seems like she might be able to pull this off. She won't be able to beat. Lukashenko. Yeah. But what happened in reality was that when the results get announced Lukashenko gets eighty percent of the votes. And of course, people realize that the whole election was just rigged. What they do is they come out to protests on Mars. But It seems that Mr Lukashenko key expected. This result that this is what is going to happen that people will come out. Because as soon as people arrive to the scene of the Riley. Almost immediately huge armored police vans come in. On, the people that are not doing minds. Does standing on sidewalks clapping. and. The thing you have to realize about Mr, Lukashenko's Belarus is that even if you clap in a group of five on the sidewalk, you will be detained. Probably even beat me by police. And you have this ride policeman in full year? Appear on the scene Bravo beaten and they are running around. The protesters. But. Then with time, what I see is that the number of protesters gets larger and larger. At. One point even block, street. And what the police does is they bring reinforcements, they bring army officers with shields machines. Equipped with water cannons. The begins using stun grenades. This scene of complete. Kale. On this. Was the first night when hundreds of protesters were ruthlessly beaten. They were beaten inside police fans. They were beaten in the pretrial detention center. Day what back like sardines you know thirty six people in the self equipped for four people. They were not given water food. It was basically a huge torture camp well on the scene of the crackdown. Reminded me of. Essentially. So the goal was to break the spirit of these protesters and I'm sure. Even more so than that was to spread the word of these tactics and break the back of these protests altogether. To scare people off so people wouldn't there to come out I'm curious how the rest of the world has responded to this pretty brutal crackdown on these protesters. While intentional community was just shocked by all the images. There were Kohl's to sanction polka Shangkun Belarus. They were gold smell to weeknights the results of that election. On fact, the results were not weeknights but the European. Union. And other individuals states. So at one point it felt like Shankar has been corner. And what he did is that he turned back to Vladimir Putin. Basically, an publicly asking him for support in this situation. And how does Putin respond? For Putin. It is much more beneficial to have Lukashenko so weak that he would only have Putin's rely on and thus Putin can easily control him and make him do whatever he wants. So he didn't throw a lifeline. He didn't say anything that would directly support him. But he also didn't condemn. And there's no way back because up the what the world has seen. Will take a long time to forget. So Lukashenko's trapped he's trapped in Putin's hands. Even I'm reminded of what looks Shaneco said to the crowd at that rally that you went to a couple of days ago and that if you get rid of me. It will be the end of Belarus but. Is what you're saying that Lukashenko himself is now so tied up with so dependent on Russia that if he stays. It would mean the end of Belarus. At least as an independent country. Well, what he says is that if you get rid of Lukashenko, they will be Belarus. But what he means is that they will be no look a Shankar Belarus. and He seems to be a willing to sacrifice at least chunks of the Belorussian independence. And mortar to keep his own. Belarus afloat. Right, and so a Belarus in which he stays in power. Is going to be a Belarus as unmistakably aligned with. Reliant? Upon Russia. Seems like yes. And Look. Has. Shown. No signs on no willingness. To give power entirely. No matter how many people come out to protest against him. The same day there was this pro Shankar rally. There was another rally. And that Brady looked completely different from what? Mr Lukashenko's Radio Look like We just need peace. We want adjust. Honestly. First of all. It was much bigger it appeared to be the biggest rally in the Russian history with more than two hundred, thousand people showing. This year against the violence, which is happening against summation on the milk and. Beaten up in the police station, and of course, I have never seen anything like that in Belarus. Actually. No one has ever seen anything like that in Valerie's because. Most people for twenty six years they could never join. Magda. I understand that for your average listener, it might sound like this people came out and this is something. But still, I mean, that was extraordinary. This was a historic woman for this people. People were chanting long live Belarus long live Belarus. Basically telling him that you look Shankar wrong you on. NORVILLE. Evers. We are Bellarusse. Run thank you very much. We appreciate it. Thank you. Since we spoke with Yvonne large-scale protests in Belarus have continued. Drawing a response from Russia's President Vladimir Putin who warned the country's citizens against trying to topple Lukashenko declaring that Russia has formed a special team of security officers to quote with store order in Belarus if need be. Meanwhile, Western countries and several former Soviet republics are seeking to impose sanctions against the leaders of Belarus. In response to what they called a fraudulent election and Lucas Schenk crackdown on peaceful protestors. Flew back. This podcast is supported by Qube the streaming service with fresh original stories that unfolded in minutes. Kuby has been nominated for ten emmy awards including the thriller. Most. Dangerous game. starring. Liam Hemsworth the piercingly funny comedy dummy starring in Kendrick the topical and Intense Drama Free Race Sean starring Stefan James Laurence Fishburne and the shocking drama survive with Sophie Turner Watch shows like you've never seen told in minutes download now for your free two week trial. Here's what else you need. We're here to show our support. For Kenosha Wisconsin the state of Wisconsin, it's been very good to me I. Love The people we've done a lot for the state on Tuesday president trump defied the wishes of state and local officials by traveling to Kenosha Wisconsin. Where he met with local law enforcement agents and toward a block of business destroyed last week during the unrest over the police shooting of Jacob. Blake Jenner she has been ravaged by anti police and anti American riots are they have been hit so hard and As he has for days trump clearly aligned himself with police and forcefully criticized protesters as lawless. Aunt. The Times reports that the Biden campaign has raised more than three hundred million dollars in August between his campaign and his shared committees with the Democratic Party. Surpassing previous monthly figures by candidates for both parties. Much of the money was raised from small donors. And appears to reflect Democrats enthusiasm for Biden's choice of Senator Kamala Harris as a running mate. which had occurred during the fundraising period. That's it for the Daily News I'm Michael Borrow. See Tomorrow. This podcast supported by Quimby, the streaming service with fresh original stories that unfold in minutes. Kirby has been nominated for ten emmy awards including the thriller. Most Dangerous Game starring Liam Hemsworth. The piercingly comedy dummy starring in a Kendrick, the topical and Intense Drama Free Race Sean starring defined and Laurence Fishburne and the shocking drama survive with Sophie Turner. Watch shows like you've never seen told in minutes download now for your free two week trial.

Belarus Bellarusse President Lukashenk Ukraine president Vladimir Putin The Times Russia Soviet Union Moscow Liam Hemsworth emmy United States Shangkun Belarus European Union Bellarusse Yvonne Central Minsk Shankar
The Sistema

The Asset

45:26 min | 1 year ago

The Sistema

"Previously on the asset I think that Putin will know the answer today's when ended the K._G._B.. First Openness Donald Trump fall that these K._G._B.. Guys were not crystal ball gazers. They didn't know that trump was going to go all the way to the White House that he is later by the mid nineteen ninety s trump was in a catastrophic financial position in one thousand nine hundred five. One of his biggest companies held an initial public offering an I._P._O.. Trump predicted this would raise four billion dollars. This is such a big day for us. It's The New York Stock Exchange. It's going public and we're really very happy about the I._P._O.. Raised just one hundred forty million dollars or about one thirtieth of what he predicted. This was the blooming nine hundred ninety s in trump was running a multibillion dollar real estate empire into the ground through sheer mismanagement and after so many bankruptcies and failed deals most banks refused to lend him some people on Wall Street actually coined a term quote the Donald Risk but somehow trump just kept building in building so trump turns his sights is to cultivating the oligarch money pouring out of Vladimir Putin's Russia and the former Soviet Union the question will soon become who is cultivating whom episode three systemic on December Fifth Nineteen eighty-nine a little more than a month after the Berlin Wall fell a crowd of protesters in the eastern city have dressed in took to the streets. They amassed outside the building housing the K._G._B.. Inside a young K._G._B.. Lieutenant Colonel called for help. He phoned the local Red Army tank commander asking them to come the the answer on the other end was yet they couldn't move without Moscow's approval in Moscow with silent. The cavalry was not coming the K._G._B.. Station was frantically trying to burn all its files documents filled with descriptions ascriptions of undercover agents of informants of sensitive reporting there. Were trying to burn so much that the furnace apparently exploded this was a critical moment. If the protesters broke through the gates in storm the compound it would be an intelligence disaster for the Soviet Union who the K._G._B.. Had recruited in how the K._G._B.. Operated would spill out into the open and so this young lieutenant colonel a man named Vladimir Putin did something brave he went outside and he faced the crowd and he bluffed. He told the crowd there would be violence if they tried to break through in it worked. The crowd melted away in by the next day the K._G._B.. Had put all all the remaining files it couldn't burn unread army trucks and drove them back to the Soviet Union the soon this young officer would follow those files back home to a country on the brink of collapse. I'm Max Bergmann Director of the Moscow project and this is the asset to understand what happened in two thousand sixteen. It is essential to understand Vladimir Putin into begin to understand Putin. You need to understand his K._G._B.. Passed it is key to who he is A._G.. I've worked with Mr Putin as Madeleine as he's tough he's K._G._B.. And he'll remain K._G._B.. Putin's former K._G._B.. Agent he's a thug <hes> they rushing wants to bring us is down and he is an old K._G._b.. Age I've never met Vladimir Putin but I know enough about them to know. He's a gangster. He's he's basically an organized crime. Figure that runs a country controls the two trillion dollar economy and is using to build up his milk and ultimately I think is a deal to deal with <hes> Putin. You need to deal from strength. He's a bully create questions about the legitimacy of these Western elections than I think I mean this is very k._G._B.. Vladimir Putin was born in postwar Leningrad today Saint Petersburg Petersburg shortly after World War Two the city had been subject to a brutal siege by the Nazis. The city nearly starved to death in was still recovering when Putin was born he had a rough and tumble childhood. Here's Angela stent a professor presser at Georgetown University in author of a new book Putin's World Russia against the West and with the rest talking about Putin's early days he grew up poor in post-war Leningrad <hes> he was an indifferent student and what got him out of a a bad situation was learning judo <hes> and so by age twenty four he was the judo champion in Leningrad. I have a picture in my book of the local evening newspaper saying this is a man you're going to hear Boroff <hes> and so I think where it's important and he's himself has written something about this but you know I in judo even if you're physically weaker than your opponent if you understand that weaknesses and you can take advantage of their own distraction you can in fact prevail over them. Putin also grew wanting to be in the K._G._B.. As a child in one thousand nine hundred sixty eight when Putin was a teenager the Soviet film The Shield and the sword is released the movie wine is a Soviet intelligence diligence in Putin is captivated. I talked with Kaldor Walton. He's a professor at the Harvard Kennedy School of Government where he helps run the applied history project he is also the general editor of a forthcoming multi volume project the Cambridge history of espionage an intelligence and he is the author of Empire Secrets British intelligence the Cold War and the twilight of empire pushing himself was in the K._G._B.. In the nineteen eighty s he as I understand it was so eager to join the K._G._B.. G._P. that he tried to sign up before he was when he was sixteen years old and was told to go away and come back when he was the age of eighteen so this is someone who saw his future career in the secret world of the K._G._B.. He soon joins the K._G._B.. A._G._P.. In begins to work his way up but he is not a particularly fast riser. Here's Jon Cypher former deputy bureau chief for the CIA in Moscow when he joined the K._G._B.. He you know he he tells even his book. Is You know that was always his goal. Watch the movies as a kid. He grew up sort of post-war Leningrad when things were really terrible had family members die in the war but when he joined the K._G._B.. He worked in this sort of domestic side of things so in their hierarchy. It was important work for the K._G._B.. But it wasn't the sort of more elite overseas work that many of the K._G._B.. Officers wanted to engage in learning languages and going overseas so he worked for a good ten years or more doing this domestic work before he got his first opportunity to go overseas as he went to East Germany he went to communist control these Germany would still you know he probably like any other kid you be officer at that time would've wanted to go to the West to work against the enemy and yes. He was involved in counter intelligence operations <hes> he spent. In his time you know working against the West what Putin did in the K._G._B.. In East Germany is still a bit of a mystery. There are some indications that he may have been involved in running illegal agents Soviet spies working in the West without diplomatic matic protection one former East German intelligence officer who knew Putin during this time claimed he had been involved in efforts to recruit western businessman in that Putin traveled regularly undercover to West Germany. It also appears that while in East Germany Putin was focused on trying to steal Western technology to aid Soviet military efforts Putin has said this himself saying he sought to gain information on NATO or as he described it the main opponent. Here's Colder Walton. We know he was posted to East Germany to address them. We can assume fairly <hes> safely that he went through the K._G._B.. Tradecraft school where he would have learned among other things a so called active measures so he would have been trained in that but then it all collapsed here again is Angela stent. The collapse of the Soviet Union was for him also a personal tragedy. If we go back to East Germany in one thousand nine hundred nine when the Wall came down the people injuries and where he was stationed they stormed the bow tried to storm the building in which the K._G._B.. In the East German secret police were CO located demanding the files and so we know from Putin's own account that they stayed up whole night burning <hes> files and then after that it was very humiliating for him. The Soviet Union was collapsing. He had to leave East Germany. When Germany was unified he came back to the very late Soviet Union without a job essentially really so so that's a personal tragedy for him? He was still quite a young man and then he views the nineteen ninety s as a time of chaos of humiliation even though he was a deputy mayor and Saint Petersburg for the beginning of that period and he was doing quite well l. but he was determined when he came back to power to overcome what he saw as the humiliation of the nineteen ninety s and restore Russia to its rightful role here again is called her Walton crucially he was in the K._G._B.. A. B. Station in Dresden at the end of the Cold War and he saw the Soviet Union collapsed around him and this <hes> he's he has described that he he phoned back to Moscow to ask for backup <hes> as has the the the crowds were swarming around around his station K._G._B.. Station in Dresden and in his own words Moscow was silent. There was no reply <hes> this collapse of the Soviet system and the K._G._B.. A._G._P.. In particular <hes> Radi lefter losting impression on Putin he has called the collapse of the Soviet Union the Greatest Geopolitical Strategic Disaster In the twentieth century. The Moscow project is an initiative of the Center for American Progress Action Fund dedicated to analyze the facts behind trump's connections with Russia. Our work at the Moscow project is made possible through the generous support port of people like you if you would like to support our work in this podcast please go to W._W._w.. DOT The Moscow Project Dot Org and Click on the donate tap. That's the Moscow project at Org thank you and the Soviet Union collapsed in a hurry by the late nineteen eighties. The ideological appeal of communism had dwindled it had been clear for decades that the system just didn't work well reform and change were needed and that's what the new young Soviet Premier Mikhail Gorbachev tried to do but what few saw coming is that in trying to reform the communist system Gorbachev would instead bring about it sudden sudden demise the K._G._B.. Read the writing on the wall and tried to stop it. The K._G._B.. Wasn't just some government agency. They were the protectors of the Soviet state the shield and the sword they new things all the things things about everybody in everything and they weren't just GonNa let their way of life go quietly into the night and they fought back in August nineteen ninety-one the K._G._B.. In a small clique of Soviet hardliners made did they move they initiated a coup. They effectively imprisoned Gorbachev at his Dhaka his summer home in declared a state of emergency back in Moscow the coup-plotters MT to prison in order thousands of handcuffs as they prepared for mass arrests they directed Soviet forces to move against the Russian parliament building but crowds rallied to protest Boris Yeltsin a new young reformist leader stood on a tank in the plotters ultimately lost their mirror backfired in fact it accelerated the Soviet Union's collapse in December nineteen ninety-one n._B._C.. You see news special report and new and potentially democratic Russia was born crisis in Moscow. Now here's Bryant Gumbel but afternoon. This has been an extraordinary day in the Soviet Union where Mikhail Gorbachev Chop has been ousted from power in what appears to have been a bloodless coup hardliners have seized power and declared a site Mikhail Gorbachev he's again president of the Soviet Union the man who tried to bring him down or either under arrest or being hunted. We're not absolutely sure Boris Yeltsin the Russian president wants dismissed as a loose cannon on the Soviet political scene has stared the canons down and emerged as the man who's kept the Soviet Union from Gorbachev's dreams of holding the Soviet. A union together may have received a death blow today the Union Three Slavic republics announced they are forming a separate Commonwealth of Independent States but what happens when a state collapses when the state is all that there is you get Russia in the nineteen nineties. The collapse of communism created a massive power vacuum. The Soviet state which was all encompassing suddenly wasn't a free for all ensued factory Managers Workers Chris Politicians local officials police officers and the K._G._B.. Were all looking out for themselves. There were no rules in anything was possible. Economically Russia was also attempting to transform a communist communist state run economy into a free market capitalist system to do so Russia instituted what was called shock therapy it abruptly privatized the Soviet Union's vast holdings of state-owned factories but who could possibly by these factories when no one was supposedly richer than anyone else. The answer was the armed the well connected and the Savvy Princeton historian Stephen Kotkin in his book Armageddon averted describe the economic situation this way quote there was no plan there was however a ten times on Russian rust belt whose combination of economic deadweight in scavenging opportunities defined the decade. Of The nineteen ninety s a scramble ensued to take over control of these enormous industrial sectors in organized crime sawn opening. I talked with Jonathan Winer. Who is Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for international law enforcement? I meant during the Clinton administration you have a merger between criminal groups business groups and governmental groups and you have to think about it as merged and all constantly interacting with one another her so that's what I saw about organized crime in Russia and it was very brutal I saw people getting killed as part of business takeovers <hes> and it was very lawless and it was remarkably comprehensive and it was penetrating places like London and places like New York not just places like Kiev and Vilnius and Riga. We saw a lot of bankers getting killed. We saw some industrialised getting killed nowhere. Was this more apparent than the bloody fight for control over Russia's sprawling aluminum industry this led to what became known as the aluminum wars about one hundred people were killed in the winners of this war who had partnered honored with some of Russia's most fearsome mobsters emerged to become some of Russia's richest men. One Roman Abramovich bought the Chelsea soccer team in the English premier league. Another Oliveira Pasta has since come under U._S.. Sanctions sanctions and is a notable figure in the investigation into Russian election interference in two thousand sixteen here again is Jonathan Winer. We certainly paid attention to the aluminum wars where people getting killed right and left and that was a phenomenon that we paid attention to a back then I knew someone who actually created a list and we called it the deadliest and the deadliest which he would add to every day or two with WHO's been murdered in Russia lately from the government to the business class and there were hundreds of names on the deadliest and all of these people had died of poisoning of car crashes of being shot sometimes with machine guns it was bad. The rise of organized crime wasn't just a problem for Russia. It was also becoming a global problem one that concerned U._S. national security when I was deputy assistant secretary of State for international law enforcement. That's what I saw Louie. A free was director of the F._B._i.. At the time saw it as well and he said these groups are moving out of Russia into the rest of the world including United States at a speed I've never seen before and we saw it as a really significant threat and at the center of the threat was financial crime money laundering if you will in which legitimate funds illegitimate funds fund people weren't paying taxes on <hes> funds relating to business transactions from legitimate business types funds underwriting too illegitimate business transactions by legitimate types funds representing illegitimate <hes> transactions from illegitimate types were all co mingled. Everybody was changing the names on everything <hes> to hide their money because if if somebody could see your money they could grab it whether they were in government organized crime by the late nineteen ninety. S Russia was a mess. It had a weak government a drunk President Yeltsin often clint take afternoon meetings because of all the vodka consumed a collapsing economy thriving organized crime syndicates and a small band of Russian businessman capturing all the wealth. These businessmen became known as the oligarchs. Here's Jon Cypher. I was interesting time in the ninety. One of the ways that western economists had told them how to to move the economy into sort of a capitalist system was to provide people shares in these state run companies and it was it was quite a brutal time so some of the most powerful and and brutal people were were able to then collect up those shares from from normal people and develop them into means of gaining power over some of these industries and that sort of what the oligarch system grow up so some of these people who are the most wealthy and around the Kremlin are people that sort of grew up in a in a wild west system where the way you got ahead was killing your rivals or <hes> getting involved in pretty dangerous and shady activity activity <hes> so now they may be living on in the movie a-rod have yachts and all these type of thing but these people are are not some of the billionaires that we know that grew up through our system in Nineteen Ninety eight Russia defaulted in the value of the ruble plummeted and suddenly Russia's nouveau riche are seeing their wealth collapse the lesson don't hold your money in Russia Russia's new oligarch class looks to park their wealth abroad but how how how do you move money abroad. Here's Jonathan Winer to break down how they did it. There was a dark side to globalization and to the internationalization of banking and that was that electronic transfers could be made instantaneously from any country to another country. Now there are certain jurisdictions often microstates would limited alternative sources of revenue that would systematically allow for the creation of off the shelf shell companies companies often limited liability companies were L._L._C.'s with fancy names like American import export or national export import or some <hes> Nice English sounding name like Abbott or Costello or some other trading company could be Abbott and Costello trading but usually much less memorable east brook Westbrook northbrook South Brook and you could buy those names and have nominees nominees included sometimes second sons from British baronets old families of people who didn't get the title and didn't have any money who would act as the nominees for hundreds literally hundreds sometimes thousands of companies and these companies could be bought and sold by anybody and what people out of Russia and some of the other former Soviet Union countries didn't particular is they would buy up these things wholesale <hes> use them in retail to undertake transactions with themselves so you would take a million or ten million dollars out of Russia that had been generated by the purchase of a thousand automobiles me only delivering one hundred automobiles and you take that money and had the profits go to South Brook Trading Company of British Virgin Islands or Belize or Panama or Cyprus and that would then <hes> intern enter into a contract for the purchase of electronic equipment for Northbridge import export owned by the same guy so now northwards import export would have all that money and that would then go to eastward trading inc.. Versus some other other purchase say for computer equipment now last one was `electronic now. We'll call computer equipment. <hes> we could call veterinary equipment or healthcare quip. It wouldn't matter there's no real deal. The money's just moving down the line to other companies controlled by nominees. They're just moving the money from one shell company to another each of which has nominees ultimately accompany which you can't identify who the actual onerous with the bank account and some other jurisdiction typically Latvia Estonia Estonia Lithuania sometime Cyprus or Switzerland sometimes ultimately in New York or London would have a lot of money in the name of his company that nobody knew who actually owned and they could do what they want it and that was the system that was in place and it represented billions upon billions upon billions of dollars worth of money laundering that was a system one perfect place for money launderers to park. Their money was real estate the Russian elite by up real estate in London. They buy villas in Spain in Italy and they buy property in the U._S.. In particular with an eye for New York and Miami end you know who also happens to be in real estate. You can see where this going but we're going to get their next week. In episode protect the investigation is a nonpartisan initiative to educate the American people about about the importance of the special counsel investigation and its findings you too can join protect investigation in demanding that the Justice Department release the full report of special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation go to W._W._w.. W. Dot protect the investigation dot org the sign up now but as the oligarchs were living large in the nineteen ninety s the K._G._B.. was also plotting a comeback Yeltsin had tried to weaken the K._G._B.. After the Soviet Union fell but an agency like that doesn't just evaporate the Russian intelligence apparatus remained extremely powerful in with Russia and chaos there was little to check its power the late political scientists cairn to wisher wrote in her Acclaim Twenty Fourteen Book Putin's Kleptocracy that under the Soviet Union the K._G._B.. Was One of the few Soviet agencies that functioned abroad operating banks. Thanks and controlling Soviet assets. Do we explain that when the Soviet Union was on the verge of collapse the K._G._B.. Drain the coffers of the Russian state. Here's Karen deletion at the Hudson Institute in Twenty Fourteen K._G._B.. Senior people got got permission from the Communist Party to start moving money out of the country into <hes> what had been what were longstanding K._G._B.. Bank accounts abroad and they moved virtually all of the money so the K._G._B.. Is Not just entering the nineties knowing all the things it also has a lot of the Soviet Union's money and although Yeltsin worked to break up the powerful K._G._B.. The Russian security services were formidable and we're looking to get back on top toward the end of the decade. The Yeltsin administration was floundering and was nearing its end. There was jockeying for power to be Yeltsin's Yeltsin's successor in insteps Vladimir Putin Putin's rise with so fast. No one took it seriously upon returning home from Dresden. He began working for the Mayor Saint Petersburg and supposedly left the K._G._B.. In nineteen eighteen ninety six he relocated to Moscow to become deputy chief of presidential property management then in nineteen ninety eight despite his relatively low rank Putin was named the head of the F. S._p.. One of the successors to the K._G._B.. You in a short time later. In August nineteen ninety nine Putin was named as prime minister all of a sudden he was being talked about as Yeltsin's successor but who is this guy in one poll. Only two percent of Russians Russians knew who Putin was Russian American writer Masha Gessen described Putin her book as quote the Man Without a face. No one knew who he was so no one took him that seriously and then tragedy struck in September nineteen ninety nine a month after Putin became prime minister Russia was hit by a wave of apartment bombings allegedly the handiwork of Chechen terrace apartments were being blown up in the middle of the night with everyone asleep hundreds were killed panic set in around Moscow and Putin seize the moment in one of his first television appearances Putin and said quote we will hunt them down wherever we find them. We will destroy them if we cut them into toilets. We waste them right there. This was chest thumping rhetoric that Americans would soon experience after nine eleven in Putin played the part of national security leader perfectly but there were a lot of oddities about those bombings no Chechen terrace ever claimed responsibility which was weird because terrace tend to want to claim credit that sort of the point and then in one case a bomb was prevented from going off on September twenty second nineteen ninety nine a bus driver was coming home in spotted two men and a woman placing big sacks in the cellar of a fourteen story apartment building. They then hurriedly drove away. The man called the police in when they arrived they could see it was a bomb. The building was frantically evacuated. People stood outside in the cold the entire ear night the bomb squad disabled the weapon. It was set to go off at five thirty a m just like the other attacks the bomb could have obliterated the building and killed everyone in their sleep. Russia's interior minister came out and praised the public for preventing another attack but then just a half hour later the head of the F._S._B.. Poon's handpicked successor end in ally said that was wrong. There was no bomb this had been F._S._p.. Training exercise to test public readiness but all night training exercises with the public is forced to stand out in the cold aren't really a thing not only that but the local F._S._B.. Headquarters wasn't informed aimed of the supposed training exercise nor apparently were the twelve hundred policemen who had been mobilized to track down the suspects. The apartment bombings also stopped after this incident. Masha Gessen explained in her book that that early talk of the F._S._B._A.. Being involved in the bombings seem fantastical but she explained that quote in just six months the limits of the possible had shifted in my mind. I can now believe the F._S._B.. Had most likely been behind the deadly bombings that shook Russia and help make Putin its leader while this sounds totally nuts. Russia never had anything like the more investigation or a nine eleven commission to get to the bottom of what happened with the Russian apartment bombings in questions have been raised by academics by the U._S.. Congress by journalists in shows like P._B._S.. Frontline the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in a report released in January twenty eighteen highlighted the bombing suggesting Putin could have been involved. Often that tax here is the weight political scientists Karen to wisha speaking at the Woodrow Wilson Center in two thousand fourteen in my opinion the explanation for why Putin's ratings went up from two percent to you over seventy percent was because he became the war president. I also believe that the evidence suggests strongly that the Ryazan bombs that were planted <hes> <hes> which led to F._S._B.. F._S._B._A. Employees being arrested. It wasn't F._S._B._A.. Operation and was planned when Putin was head of the F. S._p.. This is a very serious thing <hes> charge to make because it means that this is a massive false flag operation organized by a group close to Yeltsin to bring someone to power that downed by bombing three apartment buildings in Moscow. It's just a horrendous thing while while they're residents were sleeping. This is no way to win an election. Whoever was behind these atrocious attacks what's clear is that they cause Putin's popularity to soar on New Year's Eve nineteen ninety nine hours before the end of the century Yeltsin shocked the country and resigned Vladimir Putin? The new president of Russia addressed the nation at midnight at the dawn of a new millennium. I go to Moscow or A._B._C.'s. Morton Dean is standing just outside Red Square more President Boris Yeltsin and his resignation today and the Prime Minister Putin took over and he is acting president and prime minister as we speak and he's talking to the nation right now expressing his hope and expectation that UH WASCO will continue on the road to democracy several words which and as President Putin immediately sought to establish control into do so the crackdown back down in Russia's free and open media many Russian journalists critical Putin started suspiciously dying Putin's Russia also turns its back on democracy in competitive elections. Here's Angela stent I would go back actually to nine hundred ninety six so he was the deputy mayor working for the mayor of Saint Petersburg Anatoly Sobchak and there was an election campaign and it was a dirty election campaign and mass object was defeated and then of course Putin was out of a job again because he was the deputy met. You obviously did better afterwards so I think one <hes> thought that must have been with him. Is You know elections really on very good if you can't predict who's going to win so I think you know given his background again the K._G._B.. The Soviet times sort of you wouldn't expect someone Mike that to be very enamored of free competitive election he also threatened and cajoled opposition politicians but one of his most difficult tasks was bringing the rich and powerful oligarchs to heal the oligarch class was insanely rich operated with impunity in weren't beholden to the state in that was all about to change Putin needed to make an example of someone any chose the richest oligarch who also happen to be an outspoken critic of the Kremlin and Reformer Mer Mikhail Khordokovsky in two thousand three Putin convened a meeting of Russia's richest oligarchs to the Kremlin. The meeting was televised in dramatic moment Horta Kospi had the temerity to challenge Putin and call out the Kremlin Kremlin for its corruption Putin was pissed and a few months later Khodorkovsky was arrested and he was arrested on charges that any other org are could also have been arrested for it sent shockwaves in Russia sure in around the world. If all guards tried to challenge Putin they would be crushed. Mikhail Khodorkovsky was arrested in October two thousand and three full tax evasion then aged forty. He sat on one of Russia's biggest fortune's students he had acquired it through the privatization of massive companies in the nineteen ninety s which included the oil group uk-us and handled vast resources of state money Putin had vowed to cut the oligarchs down to size how Makovsky the industrialised was bad enough but when he encroached further into politics he crossed the red line here again is Angeles Tanto and Putin came in. He summoned these oligarchs he said if you stay out of politics you can keep keep your money. I'm not going to question how you got it. Well we know that one of the Mikhail Khodorkovsky who in fact tried to challenge Putin politically he landed up ten years in jail and then several of the other ones who own these major media conglomerates were all exiled so right right from the beginning Putin wanted to take over make sure that the the main major television stations were controlled by people who are more loyal to him today. All of the main electronic media are controlled by the state of the the television. Is this one independent television station but you can only see that online <hes> t._v.. Rain as one independent radio station Echo of Moscow which is still goes on but everything all the the the the other media means they can control by the State Years Jon Cypher talking about Putin seized control. He spent his time you know working against the West and he lived in post Soviet Russia engaged with foreign in business and there was sort of a hope in the early years when he took over for Yeltsin that he might be sort of more modernizing figure <hes> but but very quickly his resentments and his instincts to sort of control and take power like the K._G._B.. Dead it's the sword and shield <hes> a took over and very quickly after taking power he gained control of the media took away the federal system made it a much more centralized system in the courts and everything to what we have today where it's the Kremlin really is in control of almost everything in Russia. The a message was received by the oligarchs in another famous incident Putin showed up at an aluminum factory owned by that oligarch Oleg Deripaska workers were protesting layoffs in delayed paychecks in with a full gaggle of press in the back back of the room Putin's sat at the head of u-shaped table. He was looking casual wearing a white gray jacket like he was a man of the people but he was acting as if he was chairman of the board surrounded by men in suits in Putin admonished the suits. It's quote you have taken these people hostage with your ambition incompetence in pure greed quote. It's absolutely unacceptable Putin Beck and der Pasta get up and come over and sign a document resuming factory operations Dera Era Pasta a man who had come out on top of the savage aluminum Moore's nervously obliged he hurriedly got up went to the head of the table over to Putin in accepted Putin's Penn signed the document in turn to walk away but he's still holding give me back my pen Putin demanded stare pasta heart and mouth return the pen in slunk back to his chair. The press went. Wild this was a stage-managed photo op in it revealed a lot. It showed who was top dog even into Torius oligarch melted and Putin's presence the oligarchs got the message and they got in line nine when Putin or the Kremlin called and they said jump the oligarchs asked how high but by getting in line the oligarchs also got something in return they in their wealth were protected despite the man of the People Vo Public Image Putin cultivated. He didn't crush the old guard class. He didn't force them to bring back their money parked abroad instead he used them. He cultivated them. He rewarded those that played ball in destroyed. Those is that didn't dare pasta. A Kremlin loyalist may have been humiliated but he is also consistently thrived under Vladimir Putin and he's not alone the oligarch classes continued to flourish Putin simply co-opted did them they have become extensions of the Kremlin and they act like it. Here's Karen to Wisha and the Putin system I ride in the book operates by nationalizing the risk and privatizing the reward. If you are part of the inner group you will be rewarded by not being arrested. You will be rewarded by not having your funds taken you might have to pay some of those riches to others in the group but it is a it is a pattern attribute system that is quite significant Putin's. Russia is what happens when an autocrat an oligarchy of Uber wealthy a businessman and an Almighty intelligence service join forces as Putin's powers consolidated over the past two decades in informal system or systemic takes root a key feature chirp Putin systemic is ambiguity. The rules are unspoken in no one except for Putin really knows where they stand in the hierarchy so everyone seeks to curry favor and improve their position but because everyone is also corrupt because to operate in the system yet have to be corrupt it means that anyone in everyone is also compromised at any moment Putin could snap his fingers in powerful oligarchs could be arrested for tax evasion Asian or bribery or a host of other crimes. The oligarchs are powerful but they are also vulnerable here again is Jon Cypher what they call the systemic so there's there's sort of this unspoken set of rules rules among the oligarchs and people around the Kremlin that they're all they're all complicit in some ways because the laws are so flexible there and everybody's sort of making money and everybody's these handshake things <hes>. Everybody knows that they're vulnerable this system sustain Emma was vividly on display in the Miller report the report notes that Russian Oligarch Peter Often who is the head of Alpha-bank the same Russian bank who server was mysteriously communicating with the trump organization sation server during the two thousand sixteen election was in fact interviewed by Moore's team often tells more about a meeting Putin convened with all of the top oligarchs in December twenty sixteen during the transition in right after the election Moore says in the report quote according to oven although Putin did not expressly direct him to reach out to the trump transition team often understood that Putin expected him to try to respond to the concerns he had raised. This is basically the systemic in action. This stemmer is also staggeringly corrupt. It is as Karen Dewey. She describes it. A kleptocracy sucking king resources from the state for private gain in the biggest beneficiary of this system is Vladimir Putin. He becomes unbelievably wealthy. Some say he becomes the richest man in the world. I really think Putin is the richest man in the world. I really think that and I'm not just saying that crazily. Gain estimate is network two hundred billion really. I believe that it's two hundred billion Putin's wealth has come straight from the wallets of the Russian people they they are the ones paying for this corruption this Sistema one hundred Russian billionaires now control at least one third of the wealth in Russia so in this system oligarchs compete with each other to improve their position position by being as useful as possible to Putin and the Kremlin. This system is not only made Putin shockingly wealthy. He is also gained a new tool of state power Russia's businessman so as Russian oligarchs went out into the the world and spread their money around bought property made investments built connections and developed relationships. They were also developing relationships in connections that could be seized and cultivated by Putin's Kremlin as Russian money poured into London villas in Italy beachfront property in Spain he was also pouring into a large building on fifth avenue between fifty six and fifty seventh street the headquarters the trump organization next week on the asset. It'd be clear Mr Trump has no financial relationships with any Russian oligarchs. That's what he said. That's that's the position as we follow the Russian money pouring into the trump organization highlighting the shady cast of characters that surround Donald Trump and his business from significant business the Russians and the level of business amounts to hundreds of millions of dollars that he received as a result of interaction with the Russian businessman this suspicious deals in the former Soviet Union too little Moscow that sprouted from trump properties in Florida to the story story behind trumps favorite bank one notorious for Russian money laundering trump may not have a lot of money in Russia but Russia Shurmur has a lot of money in Donald Trump. The asset is a production production of the Center for American Progress Action Fund protect the investigation and district productive Paul Woody Woodhall Max Bergmann and Andrea purse executive producers and Peter on ferns senior producer. The asset is written by Max Bergmann and the good people at the Moscow Project Jeremy Vinick Talia Dessel and C._N._N.. Ciccarelli and the team at protect the investigation and Paul Woody would all in his cohort at district productive the learn more about Russian interference in the two thousand sixteen presidential election go to the Moscow Project Dot O._R._G.. And protect the investigation dot O._R._G.. Please subscribe to the podcast on Apple podcasts or your favorite podcast APP and please leave a rating and review. Thank what a great case officer Vladimir Putin is. He knows how to handle an asset and that's what he's doing with the president. You're saying that.

Vladimir Putin Putin Russia Soviet Union Putin Beck Moscow Boris Yeltsin Moscow Vladimir Putin Soviet Russia Donald Trump Russia Jon Cypher Kremlin president Karen Dewey Saint Petersburg officer Angela stent Soviet Union
Millie: The Presidential Pup

Dog Tales

48:07 min | 7 months ago

Millie: The Presidential Pup

"This episode is brought to you by mountain dew sponsor of certified buckets an NBA podcast from uninterrupted and spotify studios. Every episode recaps the latest in hoops with behind the scene stories player insights and more new episodes drop. Every Tuesday check it out. Exclusively on spotify noxious gas tainted the Brisk Ohio air as the plane. Taxi down the runway from a distance an English Springer Spaniel got her first whiff of Air Force to she wind at Harare. Owner will farish who assured her. It was fine. We'll took the Spaniel by has sleek new leather leash. He walked along the tarmac towards an elderly couple flanked by men in suits and earpieces. The man wore a formal suit. The woman a black fur coats and her signature fake polls. The couple was clearly important. The dog had come all the way from Kentucky to meet them. She being preparing for this moment for weeks in an obedience school intensive the rugs in the vice president's house were antique accidents. Were strictly prohibited. Not to mention embarrassing to her owners Vice President George and Barbara Bush George beaned and rubbed noses with the dog. Who He'd coal milly. He liked her immediately. Barbara was more reserved. The matriarch only wanted the best for her family and this dog. She wasn't the color they'd requested has spots. Were liver not black and certainly not the shiny blond of their last dog. See Fred then. There was agenda. They hadn't had a female dog before. Barbara Crouch to meet Millie. The dog jumped up pause. Treading the expensive black dress. Barbara hadn't had time to change out of just like everything else in the bushes lives. Adopting a new dog was formerly scheduled appointment smack between Vice Presidential address in Ohio and a flight to see extended family in Maine with the dog handed over. It was time to board the plane milly ignored. Barbara's apparent discontent and trotted up onto efforts to write off to a close detail than the secret. Servicemen when Barbara positioned herself on a couch for the flight. Milly snuggled up in her lap. Barbara leaned over and whispered to her. You are so sweet. But she was so ugly. You have a pig's nose you are bow legged and your eyes yellow. Not exactly the greeting one would hope for but Aguayo not milly was determined to win over the heart of Barbara Bush and the American people. Welcome to talk tales a podcast original every week. We tell the stories of historic heroic canines. We'll profile dogs who people from earthquakes went to outer space and even spurred the invention of Velcro if you're looking for fun stories and a warm heart you're barking up the right tree. I'm your host. Alex de you can find episodes of folktales and all other podcast originals for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts to stream dog tales for free on spotify. Just open the APP and type dog tales in the search bar this week. We're telling the story of bestselling author and former Oval Office resident. Millie Bush an English Springer Spaniel adopted in one thousand nine hundred eighty seven. Mili was a handful. She had to loving Heart for hunting but too much energy for the dignified office. Her owners held through her tenure as first dog. Millie was ostracized by the press. Embarrassed herself on national television and shed all over at the antique furniture. But Millie made up for this with one. Very Important Act. She made America love the bushes before we begin a quick disclaimer. Milly was called ugly throughout her life. But we've you dozens of pictures while producing this episode and frankly disagree milly may not have been the type to win best in show but she was certainly cute and fluffy however her public perception as an ugly dog is important history which began in the nineteen eighty s from day one mildred curb. Bush had a lot to live up to her own George H W Bush was the former director of the C. I. A. and Current Vice President of the United States. Her other owner Barbara Bush ran the family's political dynasty from the sidelines in January nineteen eighty-seven Barbara had a lot to do. As her husband was beginning his second presidential campaign with the lingering threats of the Iran Contra scandal attempts to end the Cold War still unresolved and the hardest parts of the campaign trail looming ahead. The bushes had perhaps never needed. Unconditional love. More through the Nineteen Eighty S. They had come to rely on their cocker Spaniel. See Fred for warmth and affection see. Fred was a well groomed. Curly haired Blonde. Think lady from lady and the tramp and just as stately he met prime ministers and princesses actors astronauts. He had written a book. He knew how to fetch. He looked good in hats during Georgia's Ambassadorship to China. The Bush's learned that the Chinese had fanned all dogs killing them in the streets but the bushes loved. See Fred so much. They made special arrangements to keep him at the American embassy throughout they use in China. Life Without the dog wasn't an option he was family. See Fred was also family to their right hand man and top aide Don Roads. Perhaps no one was closer to the bushes roads toward all the Bush. Kids to drive and took see fred for long car rides. When George became vice presidents roads made a point of getting seefred his own White House. Id Badge and he wasn't just a VIP see. Fred was an outlet for the so-called patrician bushes to show a sense of humor he wa- comical sweaters and backpacks with slogans. Like I hate cats and not to golden retriever. He a beloved perfect pet. Barbara said the pup had always shown his true color gold but on January twentieth. Nineteen eighty-seven at the age of Thirteen C. Fred Bush died. The family was devastated particularly Barbara. And Don Roads. As Barbara hits her sixties. All had children had left home and dawn never had a wife or children of his own. It's likely see. Fred filled a gap in their lives. A study by psychiatrist Kenneth Keti found that pets especially dogs can perform the psychological road of a spouse child or sibling for people who don't have them while dogs can bring great meaning to our lives. This bond also has a flipside. Keti found that when dogs we have family relationships with Di grief can hit just as hard as when we lose a human child spouse parent. This is likely how Don Rhodes felt at the loss of see Fred while George was sad to lose. See Fred himself. He especially couldn't bear to see his wife and top aide so upset both. Were trying to keep a stiff upper lip for the presidential campaign but George could see right through it. He'd known them both for decades. They needed a dog to be happy so George started calling around for a new dog not a puppy. He wanted a pet. There was already trained as he said. Training puppies on your own. Rugs is a challenge training PUPS ON GOVERNMENT. Rugs is impossible. George remembered that his friend will's hunting dog had a litter of puppies. The before and better yet barbara had gotten along swimmingly with the puppies mother. He called him up on the phone will George. He had a two year. Old Dog. Didn't have the right temperament for hunting and would make a perfect pet. George said he take her and began making arrangements. Barbara perked up at the idea of a new dog. She agreed there was a hole in their lives without see Fred. Don Roads however disagreed. He took the news from George like a professional then marched right to Barbara's office. He leaned in the doorway interrupting her work. Let me ask something if the vice president died. Would you get a new husband? Barbara quit you bet. If I could get one just as good off the stumping off Don gave Barbara the code shoulder several days but by February Thirteenth Nineteen eighty-seven. They've made up and millie. The English Spaniel was sitting in Barbara Slap on air force to having just been told she was a very ugly dog looks aside. The Dog was part of the Bush family now which meant she was a public figure. That's impacted every aspect of her life. Even her name. The bushes had a tradition of naming their pets after good friends and the latest honoree was mildred. Kerr an old friend and neighbor from their years in Houston. She'd only been with the bushes for an hour and there was already so much for me to live up to the legacy of see. Fred has socialite namesake the expectation that a dog be cute milia had already been deemed a failure as a hunting dog. Could she possibly rise to her new family's expectations especially a family running for the highest office in the US government? Of course milley had no idea about. The bushes. Political aims. Her priorities for the weekend. Were one cuddling on the plane ride and to chasing seagulls on the beaches of name but for Barbara Bush. The dog was an extension of her public image. And she'd being told her image needed work through George's political career. Barbara's grandmotherly appearance had been cause for concern campaign staff and families suggested making her look as Barbara said snappier. That meant losing weight. Dying her hair dressing better and doing something about her wrinkles. Barbara was humiliated and took none of their suggestions growing up. Her mother had also criticized her appearance and it may have put a chip on her shoulder. A chip she now shed with head dog but for Barbara and Millie. The humiliations were just beginning after the weekend in Maine. Milly moved into number one observatory circle the vice president's official residence it was a lovely home situated within the seventy-seven Ak- US Naval Observatory Park. And just like the White House. It's considered government. Land decorated with beautifully manicured gardens and woods as Spring Dawned. The executive gardeners got to planting the newest publicly funded flowerbeds and. Millie got digging them up. She May Have Been House broken in her obedience crash course but she hadn't been trained to stay completely out of trouble. Oughta million unearthed several tulip bulbs in May nineteen eighty-seven an entire flowerbed had to be redone. The garden has sent the second secretary a polite F Y hooping. She'd do something about her. Dog bobber responded with a sincere apology and photo of milly with some tulips. The verdict was out as to whether mealy was cute enough to warrant their forgiveness. Barbara could only hope. But the apology cod wasn't Milley's only photo op. Just like with her children. Barbara Bush was determined to get her dog good. Pr This became imperative. When George secured the nineteen eighty-eight Republican Party nomination. The bushes dreamed of the White House closer than it had ever been. An even milley had her role in helping achieve it. When binging the canine actor who played Benji visited? Dc Milly posted her along with Jenna and Barbara. She is kindergarten class when pets magazine vanity for yes vanity for covered a Republican pet fundraiser. Milly posed with dogs belonging to Activists Maureen Reagan and representative Helen Bentley Anthem fundraiser. Don Roads Reluctantly accompanied milly. He'd never had to worry about seefred embarrassing the family but millie needed a close eye. Luckily she kept it together at the Vanity Fair fat because this was only the beginning of her duties in November. One thousand nine hundred eighty eight. George H W Bush won the election. He'd be the forty first president of the United States. Stepping into one of the world's biggest spotlights and Billy Bush would be right beside him for better or for worse up next milly moves into the White House. This episode is brought to you by mountain dew sponsor of certified buckets an NBA podcast from uninterrupted and spotify studios it's hosted by NBA champion Nick Young WNBA starch. Nagel McKay an actor Sharon Jackson every episode recaps the latest in hoops. As the three hosts give their hottest takes behind the scene stories and player incites new episodes. Drop every Tuesday check it out exclusively on spotify podcast listeners. We realized that there are a lot of parker shows to choose from each day and sometimes not enough time to sort through them all in on new feed podcast daily we filter through all of your favorite podcast series to highlight the most timely and relevant episode premiering. Each day every Monday through Friday. Discover a new and captivating episode curated specifically for you. That's one new episode from slate of content handpicked with you in mind. Time is precious. And we've got you covered. Follow Parkas daily free on spotify or wherever you get your podcast you can check out moorpark shows and a full library of episodes in spotify by searching for park last in the spotify. Search Bar all by going to spotify DOT COM SLASH. Podcast now back to the story on the eve of President. George H W Bush inauguration in nineteen eighty nine. His wife Barbara told reporters. My Mail tells me that a lot of fat. Whitehead wrinkled ladies tickled pink. I mean look at me if I can be a success so can they and Barbara was determined that had droopy yellow dog. Millie would be a success to sure. Milly often got in trouble and Barbara has self had called millie ugly but like every member of the Bush family milly had a political role. Play when Millie moved into the White House with President George and First Lady Barbara Bush in January? Nineteen thousand nine. She succeeded six dogs owned by the Reagans Dogs. Who rarely made the news? The only one who had lucky drew attention for tugging on his leash making it look like the Reagans couldn't control him after this news story lucky was promptly exiled to California. No one wanted to see milly shipped off to California. They wanted her to be popular. Beloved like Franklin Roosevelt's Terrier Fowler or Gerald Ford's Golden Retriever Liberty. Both were beautiful dogs who looked good in photographs and behaved themselves. Milly was neither in fact. Some people called her mildred. Kerr with a C. As in an aggressive dog or low class pet and opinions shared by the outgoing administration before we moved into the White House the Reagans had a beware of Dog. Sign installed on the grounds ostensibly. It was a warning to the spurs rolls and a joke but Nancy. Reagan and Barbara. Bush had a bit of a rivalry and millie was. Barbara's dog any offense to millie was an offense to the First Lady Vale Job or not. The sign didn't protect the White House. Wildlife by Nineteen Ninety. Milley had killed four squirrels three rats and a pigeon and that was only on White House grounds. There's no telling how many hours she spent hunting in the secrecy of the president's wooded vacation retreat Camp David. Millie ignored all rules of propriety. Inside the White House to her owners sat in the lap of luxury and like most dogs. Millie was determined to sit right next to them. She had her own dog bowls made of Waterford Crystal but was photographed drinking for the White House. Stemware some of which dates back to the Monroe era. She also had her own plush bed emblazoned with the presidential seal but was often caught. Napping on the bed in the Queen's bedroom typically reserved for visiting heads of state in fact she lounged on any piece of White House furniture. The struck heff fancy mainly didn't care that English Springer Spaniels are known to shed a lot sometimes milly laid beside the official portrait of First Lady Grace Coolidge and her border Collie Rob. Roy Rob Roy was such a good first dog. Grace insisted he be permanently memorialized in the White House. In Nineteen eighty-nine. Milly was often spotted on the first floor sitting in the very literal shadow of her predecessor. Although she flouted the rules milly soon settled into her role as first dog like the president and first lady she had a scheduled daily routine according to Barbara Bush. It went something like this just before six. Am She'd wake her own up by shaking. Her long curly is in their faces. Barbara with Spring out of bed. Throw on tracksuit and take me on a morning. Walk around the White House Gardens they rejoin George in the bedroom where the bushes enjoyed coffee and the news in bed while Mili enjoyed her kibble though they had first class chefs at the White House. The Bushes thought it best to feed milly regular dog. Food and occasional treats from the table. George couldn't help himself. He was the one person who'd always found. Milli adorable at approximately seven am. Millie would follow George in the Oval Office. For several hours of Kohl's meetings and leading the free world sprawled out on the iconic presidential seal. Rug Milly overheard all sorts of State Secrets. George famously quipped. That millie knew more about foreign affairs than actual politicians. But the only words she truly cads a here were good girl and fetch. She loved to sit with her tennis ball until George had a spare moment to throw it for her when nature. Cold Milly scratched at the door for the commander in chief to let her out and in and out again milley's seem to have as much trouble making up her mind as George did convincing Mikhail Gorbachev to end the Cold War. Of course milly didn't spend her entire day in the Oval Office. She quickly learned how to ring the bell for the elevator and the two operators soon knew her by name. This gave her the run of the House through the afternoon. She chom a few senators make the White House intense smile and perhaps even WAG head tail at a tour group trotting through the historic halls. She beg a few treats from staffers or tail. Barbara who said Milly was often her shadow at the White House. Barbara complained she could never enter a room discretely because millie always ran in first. Heralding her or Georgia's arrival every evening. The Bushes top aide. Don Rhodes took millie for a walk though he'd warmed up to her. Don still refuse to be photographed with Millie. He said it was because of shyness but he being readily photographed with see Fred. Barbara had to wonder if Dunn's reluctance was because Millie wasn't as photogenic. Ac- Fred and if a new dog would ever be as beloved as the Cocker Spaniel but Barbara was beginning to realize that. It wasn't about millie living up to see Fred's legacy just like it wasn't about her living up to Nancy Reagan's the new first lady and first pet had to make their own mark on history and the cameras were coming whether they were ready or not in nineteen eighty-nine Diane Sawyer and Sam Donaldson did a live tour of the White House for. Abc's new show. Primetime Donaldson introduced the show. Saying we don't have a monarchy in this country but the White House is as close as any symbol. We have to the majesty and to the sovereignty of the United States Barbara walked him through the residents discussing her husband's administration and the historic decor in the oval offices. Regal Yellow Room Donaldson called attention to Millie. Who sat on the carpet wagging her tail? The camera cut to a close up of milly who promptly leaned over raised left leg and began licking her rear end cameraman quickly cut to a wider shot. But Millie was still visible looking away. She continued to embarrass herself on camera until Barbara realized and nudged to stop even worse. Was the topic of conversation. Sam Donaldson had the goal to ask Barbara about the WASHINGTONIAN magazine. Stubbing millie. The ugliest dog around Barbara said George was upset but she was involved. She quipped milly was being pretty ugly right now they. Both chuckled and Sam changed the subject. When millie went back to her intimate grooming the camera tactfully panned to the presidential flags. Millie didn't confine herself to embarrassing moments in front of Americans she also embarrassed herself on the global stage. The Bushes had never wanted their previous dog. See Fred involved in international relations but in the White House. It was clear they couldn't keep mealy out of them a few weeks into the presidency. The Bush's hosted the first white tie event a formal reception for the diplomatic corps. The Glitzy Party brought together ambassadors and royalty from around the world. Everyone was dressed to the nines before the reception began. The bushes invited the dean of the call and his wife the count and Countess of act Meister of Sweden to join them upstairs alongside a few other esteemed guests. The plan was for the president. First Lady Count and Countess to make a grand entrance together to officially open the reception up says. The Countess spotted millie and wants to say hello in her black velvet ball gown and diamond. Tiara. She bent down to greet the dog. Utley milly backed away from the Countess. No one understood why she wouldn't let the Countess pet her. But it was embarrassing for the bushes with the count and Countess take offense to the unfriendly dog. How would this affect international relations with Sweden before George could crack jokes to smooth things over? Millie Vomited Barbara. And George were mortified and the diplomats were to quote Barbara Horrified. George quickly ushered the guests from the room while Barbara's summoned someone to help clean up then she went to comfort milly. No one would remember the grand entrance that night but they would remember the bushes puking dog. However this incident wasn't entirely billy's fault. She wasn't vomiting. Because she was sick she was pregnant. Millie Bush was expecting a litter of puppies and in March. One thousand nine hundred ninety nine. The White House is Doug problems were about to increase seven. Fold UP NEXT. Milly becomes a mother now back to the story. In March nineteen eighty-nine President George H W Bush was breathing deeply through his crucial first one hundred days in office and his Spaniel. Millie was breathing. Deeply through the crucial lost two weeks of her pregnancy she waddled around tummy swollen scratching taxpayer-funded paint off the walls. She seemed constantly uncomfortable. Milly wouldn't sleep in her dog house and her presence in the bed with George and Barbara kept the president awake. No one was sleeping well so the president was banished to the Lincoln bedroom while pregnant milly slept in the executive suite with Barbara White House. Competences setup a nesting box in the first lady's beauty parlor hoping. Millie would be able to give birth there and not in the president's bed or any of the antique rugs to make it more comfortable. They fill the box with shredded newspaper. Presumably articles critical of the current administration but Barbara was much more concerned with Mealey's health than possible damage to the house. She knew a dog's temperature drops about two degrees when they are ready to give birth and kept the thermometer handy ugly. Oh not embarrassing or not only was her dog and Barbara had grown to love her dearly. All she could do was hope and wait but the bushes went the only ones waiting with baited breath. According to Barbara's memoir at least one paper was running a daily Milly countdown to the puppies arrival on March seventeenth. One thousand nine hundred thousand nine the bushes but hosting a dinner and movie nights. Barbara skipped the film to wait up with Millie. Who was panting. Heavily in short order. Milli gave birth to her first puppy Barbara Cool Georgian and they joyfully welcomed five more healthy puppies into the White House even better milly delivered them rights where she was supposed to in her custom nesting box. Five girls one boy. No ruined carpets. The dogs all received names much less formal than their mother including spot. Fetch Cami Ranger and pickles. The puppies launched millie to political stardom. She might have been considered ugly but no one could discount the cuteness of puppy or six even dawn roads found himself carrying lillies puppies around while he'd never stopped loving. See Fred the six little dogs certainly stole his heart and warned him up to me to the new. Dogs were the toast of Washington. According to Barbara George took every opportunity to visit. The puppies often introducing them to White House. Visitors while discussing matters of state they say deals are made on the golf course but in the first Bush administration deals were made in the Doghouse Stafa Doug. We'd noted states events that Spring where plan to include the puppies. He said they were carefully choreographed. So that guests could see all these little puppies. It was calculated like a state. Dinner also calculated the pictures. According to research a Diana Colin. The bushes were seen as patrician and out of touch when they entered the White House but that began to change a few months into the presidency when photographers captured George on the White House. Lawn playing with the puppies he laid flat on his back letting the six little dogs climb all over him and lick his face in the FOTOS. He looks like he could be your dad. Your neighbor someone you need to the barbecue proving. You should never underestimate the power of a puppy photo. Millie the dog who'd been a liability was suddenly a boon to the pushes image. By Mang. The puppies were included on public White House toys. Guests Black Tie events began requesting to meet Millie Barbara. Millie and the puppies made the cover of life magazine. According to Barbara Milly was getting more publicity than some members of the cabinet. Of course the puppies couldn't stay in the White House forever. Though people across America contacted the White House about adopting them? They all stayed fairly close to home. Puppies spot and ranger went to Bush sons George and Mavin. The rest went to other family members and friends as she settled back into life without the puppies. Barber realized that. Millie had found her calling connecting the bushes to the American people. It was time to capitalize on the publicity so Barbara decided milly should write a book right being a loose term though. Millions credited as the author of Millie's book the cover denotes it is as dictated to Barbara Bush. It was shockingly easy familly to get her book deal largely because Barbara had already written a book. See Fred Story in one thousand nine hundred eighty four. It was a modest success. Brazing nearly one hundred thousand dollars for two literacy charities. Barbara's signed copies included. A stamp of see Fred's pawprint but the book once again put Milly NC Fred Shadow. Would Americans entertain a second book written by a dog especially one full of pictures of an ugly dog? The pressure Heinsohn's when the forthcoming books royalties what amount for the Barbara? Bush Foundation for Family Literacy. It was a new charity supporting. Barbara's key causes first lady. If the book failed Barbara and Millie would both be laughing. Stocks to make things even more chaotic mealey's puppy ranger rejoined the White House. That full Barbara wrote. The Ranger was very much. Georgia's Dong as millie was hers but ranger was still a puppy and he was his mother's son. He was rowdy often waking Bush's up before five. Am He chase? Squirrels begged for treats and even once peed on an important visitors shoes in short order ranger eight so much that he became dangerously obese and had to be put on a special diet. The president sends out to White House memo requesting that staffers take a very important oath. I will not give biscuits to ranger in response. Barbara had matching tracksuits made for Ranger Millie and herself. The trio would get fit together with ranger under the same roof. Milly was no longer the only trouble making dog in the White House and despite her floors her star was only on the rise on September twelfth. Nineteen Ninety Millie's book launched with a Book Party at the Swanky Pierpont Morgan Library in New York City. However Milly did not attend Barbara explains she had more important duties to attend to that evening. Supporting the president as he worked through the Persian Gulf crisis but international crises didn't spare milly from all have pressed. Ut's she attended several book signings greeting fans while Barbara's stumps the books with her pawprint and according to Press Secretary Anna Perez Milley had the distinction of a being on all three morning. Talk shows and be going to sleep on all three morning talk shows. These were at least an improvement from her crass. Primetime appearance tales of Millie's life in the White House. Even the trouble. She and ranger got into made her more popular than ever. The White House gave her own mailbox and a dedicated volunteer to manage her fan. Mail on September Thirtieth Millie's book debuted at Number One on the New York Times bestsellers list. It remained in the top ten for three straight months. Millie Bush was a New York. Times bestselling author an accomplishment. Most humans only dream of and she was only five years old the following week million Barbara. The same duo who'd been called ugly and plain will cover goals on the October issue of people magazine. Though at this point neither was concerned with vanity. They had a much bigger goal mind. Childhood Literacy Millie's book raised over a million dollars for the Barbara Bush. Foundation for Family Literacy Barbara noted that Millie made more money than the president. That year Millie's book even went international with additions published in German and Japanese and all of this raised funds and awareness to help children learn to read with confidence in one receiving line and Admira told Barbara. The best thing this administration has done is milly. Milly was happy to take the compliment. Even if Barbara and George were miffed but they had bigger concerns than their dog outshining them. She was getting sick in the summer of one. Thousand Nine hundred ninety milly began to walk with a limp while she tried to keep up her usual antics. Barbara could tell. The dog was in a lot of pain. Milly was eventually diagnosed with lupus an autoimmune disorder Barbara understood auto immune disorders all too. Well she had one has self just the year before. Barbara has been diagnosed with graves disease and put on a steroid called prednisone to treat the condition coincidentally milly was given the same prescription for her lupus readiness zone. If that was an aunt enough in Maine Nineteen ninety-one George fell ill while out for a run at Camp David fearing a heart attack. Staffers had him helicoptered to the hospital. But it wasn't a heart attack. He too had grave's disease. The media ran with it thinking that could be something in the White House. Water George W Bush even quipped mom. You could end all the talk if you and dad would just stop drinking out of millions bowl jokes aside. There isn't a known environmental trigger for Autoimmune Diseases. It appeared to be an extremely bizarre coincidence that both bushes and the dog came down with similar disorders and within just two years however more recent medical research indicates a possible trigger for Auto Immune Disorders stress. At the time. Barbara was diagnosed. Her husband had just become leader of the free world. At the time George was diagnosed he was in the midst of two major conflicts ending the Cold War and beginning the Persian Gulf War. As familly she likely picked up on her own stress and internalized it. A European study led by zoologist. Biagio yellow found that dogs can smell the hormones. Humans release when stressed. Oh scared and can become stressed themselves. But luckily for all three bushes they had access to great medical care and were able to perform their duties with aplomb through Nineteen ninety-two that same year. Milley had her most important political meeting yet. Boris Yeltsin the first Russian president after the dissolution of the Soviet Union visited the White House. Their President Yeltsin took a picture with millie. The Cold War was officially over. This was largely due to years of political negotiations by President. Bush Mikhail Gorbachev Ronald Reagan. Boris Yeltsin and dozens of other hardworking politicians. But in her own small way. Millie helped to who knows what would have happened. If the leaders of two well superpowers had put their hands on the nuclear football instead of a fluffy dog the Bush's hoped this success would lead to victory in the upcoming presidential election but the campaign trail was tough on everyone. Milly was often left at home when the bushes traveled and she grew lonely. Both George and Barbara battled low energy due to their graves disease combined with the Gulf War. It was too much to face. In November Georgia's campaign seeded defeat to Bill Clinton in January nineteen ninety-three. The bushes packed up. Millie personally welcomed the Clintons into the White House though. We can't imagine. She was thrilled to see the position of first pet to their cat. Socks for George Barbara. Millie and ranger. It was off to Texas for a quiet life post presidency. Texas was full of big lawns to run on big squirrels to chase and increasingly bigger grandchildren. Who loved to play tug of war for merely the next four years were peaceful and happy free from any political obligations. She could simply be a dog dawn. Roads even gave a positive interview about millie saying she's a very friendly dog. She's nice to everybody. Although she sort of bashful with strange's she's a little lady a far cry from the dog who wants licked herself on camera and nearly threw up on foreign dignitaries. It had taken some doing but millie Bush had one everyone. Over sadly in Nineteen ninety-seven. Millie grew sick again. This time it wasn't a LUPUS FLARE UP. It was cancer. That's Summa twelve year old died peacefully having enjoyed Halla stays at the bushes vacation home in Kennebunkport Maine. George put out a press release announcing her death not because he felt America needed no but because he knew reporters often checked in on Mili during interviews and he wanted to spare Barbara from crying on national television as for George himself. He kept a special place for Millie in his heart. At the end of Nineteen ninety-seven the literacy partners of New York asked him to name his favorite authors. George had an answer instantly milly. He wrote the following milly young and fast lived in the White House. She chase squirrels on the White House lawn. She ran like a Dr through the lovely words at Camp David and climbed shortly on the rocks at main she wrote to bestselling book ably assisted by my wife this summer. She got cancer and died. And we wept familly had given us great joy and love and we missed her. George went onto mention Barbara as his other favourite author but he listed Milli I even though she was gone. Milley's influence on the White House wasn't quite done yet. When George W Bush took office in two thousand and one million? Poppy Spot Fetzer took the role of first dog. Though she followed in her mother's footsteps spot was much more suited to the role. George W said spot understands the decorum of the Oval Office. So she gets to go in whatever. One thinks of the bushes or millions early years the dogs forty pounds of spots and fluff only did them good. White House social expert. Jennifer pickens noted that Barbara Bush was the first politician to use the pet as a tool to reach out. Sure militant writer book but she lived it enabled it inspired it and hopefully she's inspired generations to learn to read today. Children can even by their own stuffed. Millie as a souvenir. Kids and dogs alike can enjoy the fifteen acre millie Bush park in Houston but millie's most notable memorial resides in Washington DC in. Barbara's official portrait as First Lady of the United States. Millie sits at her side. Depending on the administration her image hangs in either the National Gallery or the White House preserve for all Americans to admire not bad for an ugly dog. Thanks for listening to dog tales. Every dog has his day and our day is Mondays. We'll be back then with a new episode. You can find more episodes of dog tales and all other parkas originals for free on spotify. Not only the spotify already. Have all of your favorite music but now spotify making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals like Doug Tales for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker to stream tails on spotify. Just open the APP and type dog tales in the search bar. Several of you have asked how to help us. If you enjoy the show. The best way to help us is to leave a five star review and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram. At podcast and twitter at podcast network. Join US next week for another good story. About a good dog dovetails was created by Max Cutler and is a podcast studios original. It is executive produced by Max Cutler sound designed by Trent Williamson with production assistance by Ron Shapiro Collie Madden and Erin Lassen. This episode of tales was written by Maggie Admire. I'm Alabama Dan.

Millie Barbara Millie Barbara Milly milly Barbara Bush White House President George Bushes Millie Bush Thirteen C. Fred Bush Barbara president President George H W Bush Press Secretary Anna Perez Mil United States George Barbara spotify George W Bush Billy Bush Maine
Festive Gifting Guide!

Birthday Skin

34:17 min | 10 months ago

Festive Gifting Guide!

"Hello guys and welcome. Combat's birthday skin. We are still alive. We all your What's the word for weekly moreover? We'll just glad we all your sporadic skin-care podcast but you still logos and if you call already tell. I'm still quite nasal early. Latin yeah yes and we thought it was a bit tight. Didn't we told her we were going to bring you like a nice Christmas special episode. Sorry would directly opposite each. I'm just looking the on. I think it's because we don't listen so longest fields where the Oh yeah. We thought it'd be a bit. We've soldier this Christmas episode with if if we were just oh no sorry by well. We were both ill at the same time. A- again well I wanNA know what it in a way. Oh my God right. I was meant to Jim Pony instagram stories. have an actually how CIANCI I mean could've gone bust butt all day yesterday watching the crown. Yes So here I yeah. I'm going through the apple here in Manchester so I'm flying just a little break so I'll have to proper keep watch liquids. Yeah wanted to take my vitamin C. Yet In the liquid fall all. Oh now I can think of Cassia. This is Goin' and I decided to take my vitamin C.. Powder instead Oh you know we all go out and we talk about this powder. A makes the joke that it looks like. You've got a little stash of a class sedro. It does and it comes comes with a little spot with this so I knew I had that McKay saw whatever anyway. Case searched off. Amy He was con. What's Blah Blah Blah? You could tell in his face of frustration because it didn't know what it was itself us I pulled out like and let's Hash straightens I this this and that and then pulled this box from what was this I was like Is Getting capital boy. Looks suspicion that looks like okay. Yeah who looks like drew obey God whatever test it and I was just like my boyfriend. WHO's a police officer was like what was announced? That wasn't cocaine. Yeah because I've seven grams of coke sake it does look really suspicious and the worst thing was I had so much room left in that buck now so much way now I meant like a I want to go mushroom arrested for carrying the powder screen has filed anyway. The last time I went to the apple I had forgotten the back and I was like. Oh it's fine because I'll just have to choose to throw away On new well because I was like well. I don't really mind missing out on vaseline. I don't really mind missing out on a bevelled bomb. That's newly gone anywhere to throw my Alabama with my biggest thing. Is Mario drancy combined that again for cheap off about that so still pock these things but then the most annoying thing was. I didn't realize I hadn't packed my spray when I go on a long journey because I was flying over to New York I like to just have a little bit of a refresh spray. You know the Democrats should FM FRESH WIPES ADO FEM. Fresh bread that you can spare any clouds not on your vagina. Odd See could spray Brioni clothes and you just smell a bit fresh and you know that it safe down there a just like Ta for my job is so feel fresh when we get off the plane. Because I've been on it for nine hours. I didn't realize I didn't put it in the Goddamn y by so then this guy was like Oh this is what it is. Throw him up. Lady FEM fresh around at a Mike like she's called smelly keep without downplays could can is just Yo drian and he was just like it's okay mate. We found and I'm like take it down please. Alex is still there. And he's like what the Hell is that and I'm like oh it's just the odor is I know you. DOJ here and I'm like Adrienne from Vagina. Alex that's literally all I can tell you. And he's it's like why do you have should be happy that you can give you. Cleanliness is Oprah. Well Yeah True Book to a boy. I bet that sounds weird. I'll bet they some. I'm not even going to go into a blast with that birthday skin and one half nearly got arrested for career in substance that looks like cocaine and then the other half off nearly got arrested for Heaven Fetch Spray Glide. Yea well arrest two weeks. We did go rested. And we've just been bailed out. Yeah cocaine tested US FOB. So back made it by can we are back east. We are hold again. I don't want to tell Telmo funny story funny so you know what funny story. 'cause you absolutely pissed Yoursel you know. Let's tell by the end can be Christmas. Present is honestly this single funniest story ever heard in my whole entire Eh. Lie Haven't actually got confirmation. I can battalion this let alone SMA friends. We'll I told Alex he told his friend he was. I have heard of the unintuitive threat. Really wants to put on the truth. Yeah hotel that at the end. No no no I just want to everybody no lie if if you asked about stocking fillers or any. BG Gift she combined people pull just yesterday. Just skip the close. The story is is unmissable You don't think you'll quite believe him. Completely admissible right aims in this episode. We are going to do a little bit of a Christmas special. We're going to advise people on some cute uh-huh super budget gifts perfect stocking secret Santa's we're GonNa talk more about some good sets to honor. That might be quite good for people but yes invest in the skin care and then we've got the beach you put up as well. Yeah we've kind of divided it into both heaven way. It's quite hard to know what to get people. Yeah a safe like you've got a secret center and let you know you personally skin curb. Also skin has really fucking expensive so exactly. Yeah and I'll say sometimes you don't have quite the right thing. Oh God joe is so subjective. Isn't it so we just want to point out a few of our favorites and stuff I would recommend and I'll sit rarely so my little handy tips and tricks as well because yesterday I great time in the set and high street shop. Oh you did we talk some Tariq's okay. Okay Oh boy shall we start with the little ones secrets stocking fillers etc etc.. Yes so I'm going to start with my first one and it's a really good too on on. I obviously think because I've actually bought some secrets on and I'm not ashamed. Ashamed shames. Not The word. I'm not afraid to admit because secret and I don't think she knows I've got Sir who is just the whole point seek thumbed dome. I mean fifty novels and it's pretty hard. Yeah well I mean if she listens to this and she'll be like all that's acute secret center owned who's got that and then she's he's not been had the surprise ruined yes so anyway. Why bond gone about this all the time like grace from ebay amongst about worship bungalows? She's no she's mentioned is one of her like Goto dogs. And if you haven't already guesses the elements Collagen Cleanser S. You know an instant poll about this but I bought bombs of twenty pound Down Forty four point the full signs. Welcome that's not. Install configure the basically day. Twenty gram tiny little baby. Paul for nine pound fifty. Ten at ten ten is lost so long than like a knows. Snow the point but the poff towards luxuriant would be nice let to con- another product in super stump line. Like you're gonNA put some emotion that you're gonNA shove sued criminal Ocho. Yeah but no. It's I duNNo. I just feel like that product is the definition of luxury and also it works for literally any skin time It's a bomb so it's not that it's it shouldn't be too oily because it's going to be from a bomb to an oil then it's going to just make sure everything's off if as a and so I would say definitely gave that very soothing. So Nice if you've got like anybody and if you don't together come up yeah if Eh Old Male. Who will an old guy wasn't so she encounters life game that if it's a young baby shampoo is the bussing Christmas dirty So aims I just want to quickly add in one of the best best ever secret Santa Stock in Phila- Etcetera Etcetera essential gifting items. I found for the second one go so you know how is telling you that when I was on the plane to New York. They had the magic Egyptian while Egyptian magic Egyptian Bomb Yeah it was on sale and I was I e yeah boy. twenty-three pound fifties in twenty-five quit. Yeah well go on when entity KMOX SNY why they were bloody everywhere. Wealth Ninety fully pin nine zero. My God does talk into and you know what the best thing is. My boyfriend is absolutely bent me over in sorry. That wasn't it's no. He has absolutely absolutely rinsed. Me Of it. He gets his heart in that every day stop takes big Schwalbe Rub together is poems and put on his face and then as soon as Lsi off you'll need fresh as been all open their taken swaps still every time you make me laugh too much still built cough and we have to stenciling so Yeah I was like Oh you know. Wa- Alex Skincare. Sean said that this would be perfect for post-shave is oh. Yeah all Momo of reason ts in that will attract the bottom of the pot and about it. Since the end of August joining on by another one alex foreign last night And then I was. I've been so miserable because of this. Nearly hormonal our. You know what you can have another Christmas present sober up till as I to Alex. Sorry for being Marty I love you. Please don't don't me Charlie. And then he was like. Oh thanks. That's really cute. I just love take him us. Think it's amazing. The historically find in there though. Oh my God honestly amazing. I found it really hard to not just by alert of stuff people anyway because I've already bought them presence John Walker get that another thing that spied in that was the eve law ice cream and there was an e the eve lamb revival mask got honestly a day. Remember how much the mask was. But I remember the eye. Cream is supposed to be forty eight pounds. The Nineteen Ninety nine lover and there was loads the Laura Messrs stuff in there. Well honestly the Marquis Street Manchester. Tk Marks doing it for me. Go to going. I even found and this is completely off topic. But an on provocateur Bra. Oh nine pound. Really down from ninety together didn't fit on you I was dead bowed. I didn't like that which to be fair. You just wanted the pro. It was it was mesh with Polka dots. And a Weird Cherry in the middle or not Sherry screams talk talk. Yeah and it wasn't a Q.. Autumn provocateur way. It was like Oh this could very easily just been pulled out some old lady's cupboard if he didn't have the label on I wouldn't go near it. Yes just label by you on an big labels. Small prices go now. I really likes. He came Things go onto the next thing so for any small. If you like small BOJ if you're wanting to spend ten pounder under and you want to buy into the skincare phase and phase. Now we are just say if you want to buy into the skin care world I Ashley Ward strongly recommend the ordinary Because of the stove is on the ten pound on this a lot of it. And if you don't know wash your secret son receiver or like whoever. You're buying this gift for eat. If you don't know what kind of skin they have like. Maybe they have sensitive skin. You won't WanNa buy them the YEA. JPL If you want to say option SCO flying the Marine Holleran yeah we'll go for squall spoke whisking cash or and even if you buy him for a guy like the scrawlings Hollingsworth good is like a post-shave Yeah Oil Lifebuoy for Colin. It cost me five. Fifty is a bolkiah a bulk president. Isn't it yeah exactly and I think Oh. Oh but I had a friend message me yesterday and to decide what to do with the ordinary like. I want to get something in but I don't want to buy. I don't know how many US I want to buy some acids by what percent so confusing and we'll have a listen to our favorite products because we kind of recommended stuff and why you should use it. The types of skin types boy All say oh I just said marine high on ex because gray said that that was better than the other one notch tried them. Stop with a low retinol or by the Bay Sat which can help you get used to it and help you skin kind of get more tolerance not allowed to addressing those are really good either yeah And they've just got like a moisturizer Driza something simple like that Nice And he had the big ones as well. I just think it's such a nice gift I is. This is the fall and the stuff. They actually do the job. And the cheap so cheap Lonzo arcing thoughts an eyesore stocking filler or sensual gift wbt obsolete and attend We have one. We tiny little one extra here. I mean this was your audition. So I'm saying this. It was mine. The carbon theory charcoal cleanse Inbar six-pound. Again how yeah Las ages yet and I I also think that I was gonna say I don't think he's luxuriance by is proper pump per yea yea products. Yeah exactly so so. I would highly recommend that the well any skin type you like it and you don't gak me though. I like it that much. I just think if if you want in to get somebody something that you've a low-budget. Look at what your favorite products are saved through with travel sized. Yeah exactly because. I don't think there's anything nicer than somebody. Nobody gifting you something that they done you gift in somebody. Something that you think is like something you couldn't live without this. I won't eat try so I'm really really excited to give my friend that little Cleansing bombed. I'm not I actually could not live without this fee to have and then just just flying in the next pot with essential gift in like I've got a friend and it's not. Skincare is make but it's Laura Mercier am translucent site impala I could not live without every single day I use just to set my under is could have quite dark circles. I could just a bit more. Yeah definition book. There's really not sat on ISOS at the minute. Do a little mini version of La and then lower San Primer. And I've got a handsome. Yeah it's it's not not bad at all. Yeah so I've got off my friend's birthday and again I'm I'm really looking forward to spin like. Hey Go yeah I love the definitely. I just think it's a nice gesture. Yeah that's it and and that reminds me of you know that key Christmas. John Lewis Advocate that year where the boy was really exciting. His parents like. Oh my God stopping. So annoying. Weiss excited Christmas. Chill out and it makes you think he's excited excite because he wants his presence wake somebody runs and he's so excited give a president only got a fucking Cape so Q.. is another thing saying that. Going to briefly mentioned now in the next Pau for essential gift in book if you go somewhere like heels you can buy full-sized products and they will often throw in a little wants to make set now. It doesn't necessarily have to be that you need to buy everything that psych within that range you could buy a full will produce few mom a full productivity data full few sibling an emmy one as well. And then you can use as a stock in Phillip someone else so you just have to kind of ask him be a little bit cheeky. Awesome to be like. I'm spending this money. Can you throw in unleash rise or let ball MOINA and normally do. Yeah they great or even if the issue sure sex some polls are bulk in both things or pushes Nassar's and it's the effort more than the money that you spend in. It's the thought so oh I also just wanted to add one more thing and it's the whole soap literally thing is ten pounds And you can buy a block of it and there is honestly amazing. It's perfect if you go to the gym ICAN let you just keep any gym bag and is always that I mean you can use at home as well. It'd be perfect for somebody who just needs to carry around with them. I didn't notice Dr than running around the frightened Senator Wayne which gifts jump in the shower. They've got it with him of luxury. Isn't it that it's a like to buy. I think people that they wouldn't by themselves might think that nobody or than me and you would by themselves. The Bar of soap for ten pound. Yeah but it's worth every single penny tonight so so Alan Jefferson show him onto the essential. Gifting Guide yes. So we've chosen a few bits here And there's is a few hints and tips in there but also a few make obits eve added in his well known book. I mean we may as well start off with the Keel staying. Because we've said you can get the sets and you get sort a good value for money sometimes a pre made and you can get them sometimes. I'll make them up for you if if you want to swap a few things here and there so don't be afraid to go in and ask them and also don't be afraid to go and be like I don't know what to buy a need spend this March what can I get And they can always advise I the literal sales men and women so they will be able to help you in some way or another. They've got these really cues set. Says says while the Manila mother on the kills website but the raw others as well. 'cause I was looking at stuff together. But they've got like a glowing. Skin set like a healthy skin. John I think he got four dogs. Majoria full-size Soman. And I think like four or five quit but the value of them is like seventy pounds and above. But they're really sweet because they're in these boxes have got a design and decorate really festively legit. So I think Clara Really Nice festive happy presence give some added AH title them quite well Because it's quite a few different ones to choose from so I thought that was an earthly idea. Yeah yeah definitely am. I mean your comment on our nose knows here is my favorite thing. Ever WanNa let you go wild with this. Thank you so my thought process with this lull. No was if he binds somebody President Yeltsin care about them quite a lot spongier hardened money on them And you kind of need to sit back and think d really care about this person and if the unseen by them before can aspire yes If you really really want this person by them something that's going to protect them something then aging something that they probably wouldn't by themselves so they don't see the importance of if you are an avid birthday skin listener and she wants to do as proud. I WANNA see gift in wrapping. Hospice gives people. Yeah exactly and you don't even have to get ones that expensive on all rush. Posey ones wore seventeen pound yet. I bought my sister and Steph lost Christmas ofter. We'd just birthed. They thought of it ought lie being Baba Bali needed yet. Apparently show from what the fuck is she taking me on holiday. Uh you should wear every single day. It's just important accession tinted. The Pozzo says she loved her and then she run out really quickly. And I'm really proud of you. Don't actually think you'd ever basically force. GT's glad you enjoyed being forced to hear you WANNA safe Well I just WANNA put out there I went on ACL's Because I think they have some really good skin Catherine's on that they've got all of connect staff they've got the pre-college embalm lays values paradox. They've they've got demo logical now today and I honestly there is so much for me to mention. I saw a few bits and bobs that I think correal idea for somebody who maybe is wanting to buy a gift. Somebody skincare even if somebody younger I've had a few people that been in like an east by my niece omen F- years something is good. Skincare could get them because they're wanting to start to get into their and or maybe they're suffering with a skin problem a problem. I'm not sure am bought a wish. I'd seen all these the case beforehand because Damon Logica have got a for each different skin. Type like a full mini routine. And I think that's amazing for one somebody who has no idea that because again everything to a really reputable brand not that is only charging like thirty pound this care and they can go and buy again or they find or discover this brand then they can go to the shop and be like Oh. I've been bought list for Christmas. I want to buy the full size one. Like it's perfect for people to try out so dem logic curve got there and then I saw the indeed lobs have started doing them as well. Yeah and the Higher Logic Jelly that we both like and then just the normal higher lot inclusion. They've got a Chiro of on there as well. On opposite ten ten would love a AH pefect for literally any skin. Tight lava is nice. Isn't it just be like. Here's a skincare set. Sometimes like we say all the time you might receive automobile. Yeah but if the package in yet you cannot go wrong. Yeah and the cute. Little boxes. I I saw when I was thinkin about the research this sorry I realized a sound extreme nasal I was like if I my heart. The most trickiest persons by for and like they had everything all. They have tried everything in that. You know just a proper fussy person. Maybe try to facial if you don't physical products to buy them yeah or a massage absolutely hundred percent. Connor Thurday Yeah. That was one of my suggestions for the BG gifting as well woman come onto that in a little while European for Bucci gifting because he can always drop in a face. Jim Oman Audio. How Biji That Bay so bishopsgate ten ten another one so I actually did this? Lush share abusive book subscription. And yet. I really really like this idea so remember last year when Birch box did like three boxes for tenor yes. I'm we both. We both Bolton didn't win. I like got like a bolt my sister for Christmas the boy brow and then obviously kept it in the pink power to in and then took out loads of stuff from these birch boxes are thought she'd like clogging Able I. Can I shudder war another moisturizer because quite a lot products are all and it was like little hamper yet. I actually did that secret since last year. I completely forgot about that. I literally had a fifty pound on budget so a ball three of those boxes for ten pound. Because I'm watching this other places doing this year again and then she wants some bits from lush you also so look is great stocking fillers Okra bombs moisturizes ham asks. SPF's God I. Didn't you actually think about that. I Bet God this bloody La and other as those on the box saying if you don't WanNa buy Somebody Abubakr or by the missile scripture and that's not you know the money's not eubank everyone everyone than fire Renault and get yourself subscription and just put something assign every month yet from on the not GonNa make a hump about into into the air. Yeah so you've got yourself a prison. They've got presenting for next year already. we got sent something recently that I want to add on to this yes and it's the Lexus SC in Minne- trio set so it comes with the electric well Gel cleanser. It comes with the day and night. Serem pity Japan yet the vitamin C.. Paste and genuinely loved them all on. Yeah I got through the cleanser pretty quickly just because it is a mini. But it's again really nice way each try some then put the Feminazi pace lesage's and you don't need a love to say rim and believe that's the pounds. I should have made a note of that book again available in sauce. Nice I'll try to Vm. Yeah I really like it ten ten sure and yeah I was made into. That was one thing. It's poor. Take Away with me but again admirals. Don't really want to throw this away so it didn't solve not jarred me about my musical Amazing base yourself so. I'm not actually tried them all. Do we have any more sensual. Gifting items names I think. Essential gifting so subjective like we stock in Phillip. If you love something by somebody else else yeah. Usher is a jet by size version. Most bronze do travel sized versions of the people travel a lot. But Yeah God. Don't we want to do a really quick boozy gift in section One of mine was a face Jim yet because that is boo. Jay is also a really nice experience to get for somebody. Because it's not what you would expect from a spa day and it's not what you expect from a normal facial and also facial its work. Look we have done an episode of face to if you want to learn off them. Yeah they all fall. Yeah in Manchester London all across the US like ten ten commend bullets. I did notice something aims and you know how we always talk about an cleansing brochures and devices. Isn't that kind of thing. And we always say own these silicon ones because emotions can be quite harsh lich like using an electric toothbrush phase. I saw again on a sauce that Foro. They're the ones that made me silicon devices. Have something called the Fo- fo- which really made me laugh along with the FO. The Mario Photo it's basically care and it's got a device in and cleanser so eight to eight pounds so I wouldn't say that it's necessarily essential gifting because that might be the way over. Someone's put your it might take up. Someone's budget Something that they can use time and time again so with these products that obviously going to run out book using buying a device. That's GonNa last and they can use different products with it am Safia like it sits boosie because it is more expensive but also remember that. It's not going to be something that's GonNa be completely used up. Yeah yeah toward really quickly though. I know Ferrario do smaller devices like eighteen eighteen pounds. Yeah the not but they have about hundred uses on them yet so these will run out for if you all may be one into gifted or even try if yourself yourself before spending all that great where you saw him quite tempted myself. Definitely right aims. I am a bit of a little Elf this evening and a lot of Christmas. His plans and I'm aware that you have to tell the Christmas story. I'm being kicked out. Yeah it's not. Christmas storage is Christ. Call my God. It's not Chris Assume it's a funny story but quick my friend at work. WHO Like I've said it or even know if I've commission to be telling this friend at work told me the a friend of her boyfriend's works it's through the Horse's mouth so apparently she looking after this couple's dog and they were like right? If it is a golden retriever. It passes away. Do not worry about it we we we kinda hundred Kobe. She's getting old honestly. Don't don't worry passes away also gone and she was on so the going all day doc passes as-as way Babol. She rings him she what to do with it. I'm really really sorry. They'll know is fine. Like would you mind taking to the Vet Soros. That would really like to get cremated. Yeah she's up. Mark Lives in London for doesn't drive. How moments gets the vets with this maasais dog dead massive debt? So aw couldn't you couldn't get a train because she couldn't look dead dog in about. I asked me my dog so she thought she also could've taxi because she go in a taxi taxi to amend taxation dog in the bucket call. She obviously couldn't get on a train like hello carrying a sheep so what. She thought she'd do as Puck into a suitcase. Oh and the underground the question this decision when my friend told me all around the not the easiest for you know. You're in a state of panic. What do you do so Yes underground. But washy locked takes All Saints Blah Blah. She's on the underground with a giant suitcase. The dead dog and fetal position in a suitcase look into along clearly very heavy. Docs honestly like I've stone. And a golden retriever. Yeah she's taking down the steps to do to to dog in their. Ah nobody else knows what's going on. Imagine if that broken open to the dog rolled out your push me how it's going at. Up Story along so basically she. He's on the underground. She needs to warbucks stare. Some Oklahoma's bander and it's like. Oh God Alex Lines you want me to help. And she's like no no it's fine. Don't worry absolutely plenty. Oh honestly like let me help you struggle and so took it. It was Jesus Christ and apparently she thought she was dead. Small and Clermont. Oh ooh I'm inbound. It's I'm thinking she you know thought on the spot I think can yeah. This is believable and he stole I find the fancy runoff and stolen my head immediately. All I'm thinking is he's been so excited to get something this way thousand pounds and he's opened literally dead namely not like an awful. Oh absolutely awful. That's my story guy. Don't dogs and suitcases. You're like why did you not just get a taxi. Donors because if she got in a taxi and the dog was killed in a suitcase and she goes out at the vets on wheeled suitcase in there. That would've been upset. She wouldn't have had from the underground anywhere here on the on his ways. Dr Then knows bike. She could at least unpack the dog before she walked into the VAT. What in the taxi? Now I mean like if she like my dog's fats quickly swing around the corner. takeout suitcase taken about. Oh instead of wheeling attend in a bloody wheel she probably had a lot to-do and she probably thinks as a lobbyist gun eight. Yeah this is the last thing I want to be doing in my evening. Take a dead duck. Somebody else's dead talk to the best getting Craig's exits died on me. alcott tone is honesty. It's horrendous Erez. That riles dog. Yeah walk that wraps up this decade decade this decade Vos one doing this for one year natural tenth of this decade. We've been making birthday skin when we come back. In February we'll have left twenty nineteen behind a very merry Christmas and a happy New Year and most importantly our love turned twenty four. Yeah So so yeah. Yeah January's super-busy because it's your birthday we're trying to get back into the swing of things after work Obviously tends to be busy for every after work but we also have a slightly new strategy for the New Year in terms of our release of episodes. So we understand that obviously We don't see each other all the time anymore so we just need to be able to plan things ahead Maybe bulk record before we come back but we'll speak about in the new year and super excited for everything honestly next year is going to be absolutely huge. We've got plenty of really fun things on the way and I guess I just want to say thank you so much to everybody who's founders. This year he shared on the story. WHO's involved in competitions? Whose message does his message asking questions whose message such saying that they love those like honesty it means the world to us and we literally? We will not do this if it wasn't view so I just want to say thank you to everybody. Everybody apart from the girl. He'll have three stars Archie and she still listens while she's still she's tall such for God's sake well Ames James thank you to you for putting up with me for the past year. Thank you to you and with me. I'm going to see you in the new decade bitch. I mean before that I'm going to tell you next week. Yeah et Al.. Speak to you on the podcast next year. Berryman Christmas N. out there. Don't you see yeah goodbye.

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Russia Expert Angela Stent on What Drives Vladimir Putin

Intelligence Matters

39:16 min | 1 year ago

Russia Expert Angela Stent on What Drives Vladimir Putin

"This is the intelligence matters podcast with former acting director of the CIA, Mike Morell sponsored by Raytheon. Putin, sort of exemplifies forces that have been at work in Russia for hundreds of years, and that is first of all the Russian sense that they are an exceptional civilization that different from the west the Russian sense. And I quote a famous nineteenth century poet that, that the west will inevitably be their enemies. We're foreign policy decisions made in Russia, you know, so the decision on doing Syria or decision on Ukraine, how does that actually happen as far as we understand it on the very important decisions it would be President Putin and just a few people around him unless important foreign policy decisions, it's a wider range of people, but it's very much. I think still people believe President Putin and a small inner circle. China. Maybe the, the big enchilada here, China, what's the basis of this relationship is a tactical strategic how do you think about? I mean, these are two countries that feel that the post Cold War order hasn't taken their interests into account and that they need to have more agency in and they're both committed to what they call a post west order. So they share a desire to change the way that really that the world is when. Throughout the centuries. When Russia I became a great power in the nineteenth century, it's always only being able to act as a great power by virtue of its military presence, rather than economically, because it's always been economically behind Europe behind the more developed countries are able to project military power on the cheap fairly successfully, particularly, where in areas where they're surprising, the west or where the west doesn't want to respond. Angela stent is the director of the center for Eurasian Russian and east. European studies at Brookings Institution. She is also a professor of government and foreign service at Georgetown University. She has served as the national intelligence officer for Russia and Eurasia at the national intelligence council. Angela just published her most recent book, Putin's world Russia against the west and with the rest, I had a chance to sit down with Angela to discuss her book, and all things Russia will be right back with that discussion afterward from our exclusive sponsor Raytheon. I Michael morale, and this is intelligence matter. From end to end cybersecurity too high energy lasers to quantum computers, way, theon is they're advancing technologies that protect people information and infrastructure Raytheon making the world a safer place. Angela, welcome to intelligence matters. You know, as you know, one of the key national security issues facing the United States is the international behavior of the Russians, and you've just published I think very important book on why Russia, does what it does. It's called Putin's world Russia against the west and with the rest. It's fantastic to have you on the show. No. Glad to be here. Perhaps the place to start Angela is to get your perspective on. What are the Russians actually doing in the world? You know from kind of big picture perspective. And then we can dive into why they're doing it and what we should do about it. Right. And then maybe also get into a little bit about Moscow's approach to different parts of the world. But how would you start? How would you characterize what they're doing in the world? So Putin came in as president, with one of the goals was to restore Russia. As a great power. And to put behind Russia, what he considered the humiliation of the nineteen nineties. So one thing that doing is showing the rest of the world that they are a great power, despite their economic weakness, and that they belong at the they, they need to have a seat in the global board of directors. They should be asked about any important international decision. So that's one thing they doing showing their presence and saying to the world you cannot ignore us. You have to treat us with respect and to take our interest legitimacy. And what are the specific things that they do to that end like Syria, for example? Right. Well in Syria, you know, the, the west try to isolate Russia after the annexation of Crimea and the Russians launching a war in southeastern Ukraine, and Putin's answer to that was to go and start bumming in Syria. He was concerned that a sad might be defeated which indeed, he might have been. And Russia has saved him Russia's now. You know, a major power that back in, in Syria. It's and it was again done by boming and in many. Ways the way they do. This is by disrupting you can see this now even in Venezuela or country like that. It's to go back to areas. Maybe Russia withdrew after the Soviet Union collapsed, but just to make difficult for the west to achieve its goals. So great power anything else pursuit, or or, or is that the driving force here driving objective? There's also a domestic imperative this is a group of people that want to stay in power. They've accumulated a very large amount of money which they don't want to lose. They don't know what's going to happen in the next leadership succession, so it's also using the foreign policy to try and keep themselves in power and Putin has very skillfully appealed to the Russian population to their patriotism, you know, to increase his popularity numbers because they were falling for instance, before the Crimean adventure. And how does that play out so that plays out in a place like Crimea? Does that play out and other places? It's played out. Particularly in Crimea to some extent in Syria, in the beginning, again, the Russian population, apparently was proud that Russia was back, there was showing the Americans that they couldn't push them around. I believe there's somewhat diminishing returns with that now and maybe we can come back to that later given the economic state of the country. But that is still something that apparently appeals to the Russian population. So you say something very important in a book Angela. And that is that most people focus on Putin the man in explaining Russian behavior. But you think you know that's obviously important, but you also think that there's, there's a bigger issue here. That's russia. The nation Russia the nation state. Can you talk about that a little bit? Yes. I think Putin sort of exemplifies forces that had been at work in Russia for hundreds of years, and that is first of all the Russian sense that they are an exceptional civilization that different from the west on the Russian sense. And I quote, a famous nineteenth century poet, there that the west will. Inevitably be their enemies that they are. They going to be opposed to the west, the west isn't really going to serve their interests. And I think the other thing is the sense of Russian insecurity, because it has no clear Boorda's except in the north and you've always had this tradition for hundreds of years of expansion of Russia's borders, absorbing, its neighbors, then retreat, when it's defeated and then re absorbing those neighbors, again, we're does this sense of exceptionalism come from. Oh, I think it's it, you probably have to go far back in history. The way that the Russian state was formed the role of the Russian Orthodox church. And the fact that, you know, Russia has developed a civilization that is different from that of its western European neighbours. So does this mean that Putin doesn't matter that much that if it wasn't Putin, there would be somebody else, like Putin? You know, how much of this is history and tradition and culture in worldview on the part of Russia. And how much of this is Putin, so I think any leader who would have taken over from Boris Yeltsin, because the nineteenth was a time of chaos of impoverishment in Russia and you had to lead who wasn't very well towards the end of his tenure in office. So I think anyone who would have taken over from him would've wanted to restore a strongest state on would've wanted Russia, to resume some at least a regional, if not a more global robot to, to restore Russia, as of a power that managed in the world. I think the particular way that it's happened onto Putin is unique to him given his background, you know, amid ranking KGB official a case officer who served in each is east Germany, than someone who served in the office of the mayor instant pitas book, the mayor was sort of democratic leaning. But that's when they began this sort of rather corrupt system of acquiring asset. Of, of the, the economic system. We see in Russia today and Putin, like many Lita surrounded himself with people who come from a similar background so he rules with those close to him, many of whom from the security services. And so I think that has made a difference because I think if you'd had someone who did not come from intelligence background. It's possible that their relationship with the west wouldn't be quite as bad as Russia's as today. So can you describe him? We're kind of person. He is what his personalities like analogy traits characteristics. How would you describe Putin? The man. So I mean my encounters with President Putin have been at these annual Valdai club meetings in Russia, where they bring over foreign experts on Russia around me we meet with various leaders, including President Putin, this is someone who's pretty well informed on issues when he's in small groups in you ask him questions. He doesn't refer to some assistant who stunning next to him. He's. Interested in things like economics and energy. He can real off statistics. He has some very strange notions of history, which quite amusing, sometimes, but I would say this is someone who's in command of the facts is, you know, can be quite direct and almost route to people when he wants to be. But, but seems to he exudes by now self confidence. So let's let's stick with Putin. So looking back and his experiences, both, both as a young man, and then as a KGB officer and then you has, as you said in the mayor's office in in Saint Petersburg. How did those experiences shape him so he grew up poor in post-war Leningrad? And this is, you know, not just a little more than a decade after the siege of Leningrad occurred when the Nazis tried to starve out the city in a million of its inhabitants. Died in Leningrad. So an his parents lived in a communal apartment, like most people did in those days in the Soviet Union, so they will pour and apparently he was an indifferent student in school. And then what apparently raised him up was when he decided to take up judo and in an autobiographical series of essays that was published when he first became president, two thousand he refers to the playing judo. I mean learning judo and that was the sport that enabled him to transcend this rather mediocre, if you like background and then also apparently learning German at which he did very well under German teacher, who sold the promise in him. So if we're to believe this book, this is how he then managed to do reasonably well in school, and then got himself into Leningrad state university to study law, and we also know again from this book that he had wanted to join the KGB as at a young age so that age sixteen. He presented himself. To the KGB and they said, come back and we'll talk to you later. So, I think growing up I mean another book is being written about Putin describing him really as a civilised, and I think that's part of it growing up in this postwar Leningrad in poverty, and in rather bleak circumstances. And then he went to the two east Germany. He was a young man in his thirties. And I think what really influenced him that was festival. He enjoyed living in east Germany. It was it had a much higher standard of living than the Soviet Union. Did he lived better there? But then what happened to him? Of course in one thousand nine hundred nine was, when the Berlin Wall came down, he was in a building co located with the east German security services, and, you know, the mob came up and demanded the files, they wanted all that files, they want to know what was going on. And so he describes again spending all night in this building burning papers so that nobody could get hold of them and saying that. No one in Moscow was there to help him. In other words, profound feeling of being abandoned by the Gorbachev people after all of this happened, and then leaving east Germany earlier, probably didn't he would've and coming back to then we'll still Leningrad but without a job. Really? And then finally finding work in the mayor's office. And the this was something new. He was in charge of foreign economic contacts. And that's when we know he got together with a group of his friends, they oh boy duchess country houses, and in the same place on the outskirts of then what became Saint Petersburg, and they apparently started to accumulate wealth. He had these contacts with foreign business people. And that was the time when he first met Henry Kissinger, friends, since but apparently he was his driver when he was driving around Saint Peter's book, so, so you have these dual biographies there, and then he was brought to Moscow in the mid nineteen ninety s another. The thing that I think affected him was the in one thousand nine hundred six the math for whom he worked, Mr. Sobchak, there was a rather dirty reelection campaign and Sobchak lost. And that was also something the parents influence Putin, and he realized that, if you have an election, you don't know, who's going to win, you know, that can turn out badly. And so then again, he was out of a job. But then he was brought to Moscow and the recent why Yeltsin picked him apparently was because he was persuaded that this was going to be a loyal man. He promised President, Yeltsin and his family that nothing would happen to them one home welded. He no Yeltsin prior to being shows. I don't think he knew him that. Well, I think it was people around Yeltsin, like farro, Spurs off ski and others who recommended Putin to him. I don't think he knew him that well, and do you, do you have a sense of whether he was successful at his career the KGB how he was doing when this all fell apart. So if you read. The memoirs of the man who used to be in the east German secret police as the head of their international operations, Marcus Volve. He'll say this was someone who is barely on his radar screen. He was dressed in trust. In was not one of the major cities in east Germany. It was kind of a backwater, and that he was a mid level Lieutenant cuddle in the KGB. I don't know how you would judge how well he did. But he, he suddenly wasn't well known Angela. Or foreign policy decisions made in Russia. You know, is there a process who's at the table? Is it really only a small group of advisors as we hear, you know? So the decision on doing Syria or the decision on Ukraine, how does that actually happen? Well, of course, we all wish we knew and we have some of the finest minds in the United States in the intelligence agency. Trying to figure this out, this is a government that's run by people who come from the security services. So having said that what we understand is there is a national security. There's a Security Council, which certainly meets regularly and discusses things as far as we understand it on the very important decisions it would be President Putin and just a few people around him. It could be the defense minister could be the head of the, that's the foreign intelligence services. It could be the head of the domestic intelligence services. It could be maybe a few other officials depending on the issue. Who will sit with him, and we'll discuss these matters. We know that the foreign ministry doesn't really seem to have much of a say in any of these decisions, and that often the foreign ministry finds out about things for instance, what happened with the Russia, Georgia war and other issues after they've taken place, there is no, I'm like, even in the Soviet period, that very few institutions where you can identify this is what this particular branch this institution. This office does unless important foreign policy decisions. It's a wider range of people, but it's very much I still people believe President Putin and a small in a circle in your book, you wrote that, that the foreign minister wasn't involved in the Ukraine decision, for example, yes, as far as we know he wasn't annexation of Crimea, but something they found out about afterwards. So you believe Angela that Putin has largely achieved the objective that you said he was after. Right. Which is managing return to return Russia as a global player. Layer. So he's been successful at what he has set out to do. How do you think he thinks about that? And how do you think he thinks about where to go next? So in my book, I do also point out there areas where he clearly hasn't been successful. I mean, the whole episode in Ukraine he has managed Russia's Russia's'managed through its actions to unite Ukrainians and away that they weren't United before there's always been a split between east and west that seems to have diminished, much more than Ukrainian seemed to develop a much stronger sense of national identity. I think he would probably also look out an acknowledged at some point that his designed to reintegrate the post-soviet space has been my only partially successful and what does he want to do in that post-soviet space? Does he want to actually physically control it or does, he does want to have significant influence over it? He wants to have significant influence and he doesn't want any of the post-soviet states to join any euro Atlantic alliances. I. Well NATO or to join the European Union. He doesn't want to create the Soviet Union re-created because I think he can't, but he wants to feel again, going back to this kind of sense of space, and insecurity, that the borders of the former Soviet space, really the security perimeter of Russia until that none of Russia's neighbors. Particularly Ukraine should move closer to the west, and it's kind of interesting to the, the way you described Russia, right as being this insecure nation and therefore the new to show that it's powerful actually, kind of kind of sounds like Putin himself as a person. Yeah. I think that's I think that's probably true. I think given the fact that he grew up in the second city in the Soviet Union that he, you know, even when he went to east Germany wasn't sent to east Berlin. So yes, it's, it's trying, I think to compensate for some of that too, and using the skills that he learned probably both as a judo is as the Russians call it. And in the KGB using his skills to take. Advantage of the distraction of the west the mistake, the west makes in other words, Russia, right where the per capita GDP is less than that of Italy, which has a declining population, a crumbling infrastructure. It's live very limited resources, but making pretty savvy use of those resources to reassert Russia. We're gonna take a quick break to hear from our sponsor, and we'll be right back with more of our discussion with Angelus debt. Do you hear that? That's the sound of the world changing of networks. Connecting enemies evolving. You can't slow it down. You can't avoid it. You can't stop it. But you can stay a step ahead every day. Raytheon engineers are innovating modernizing delivering trusted innovative solutions that protect people information and infrastructure. So as our world changes, we can make it a safer place. So maybe now we go to Russian foreign policy kind of region by region here, a little bit, which I think, is you did a fabulous job in your book. Let me kind of throw them out and get you to react to each one of them, I would be Europe. And I should say that I found it interesting that you talk about from Russia perspective. Right. You talked about Europe from Russia perspective as both a model and then NATO as the enemy talking about that. That's fascinating. So I would say tradition. For Russians Europe has being admired as an economic model. In other words, you get Peter the great, first of all, in the seventeenth century, setting out, incognito, traveling Europe to try and learn how, you know, the Europeans managed to have such an advanced economy. So there's always being an admiration for that, you know, even under the communists, what the Russians have been much more wary of is kind of if you like the idea of Europe, the ideas, that European states put forward starting with the enlightenment the renaissance reformation, all of the things that Russia itself, never experienced like that. And so those the ideas of the rule of law of due process of individual liberties, and human rights and their successive Russian rulers at least have been very wary of those. And so what Russia doesn't like about the European Union is first of all the idea that a group of countries would give up, this sovereignty voluntarily Putin absolute sovereignty the sovereignty of big perilous. Is very, very important. And then the fact that the, all these European countries can get together and agree on things like sanctions, and even if individual countries don't like the sanctions anymore, if the leading countries like France and Germany believe in them than they continue. And what the European Union explicitly is as a community values and so whenever the European Union deals with Russia it talks about talks about values so that's the European Union. Now, NATO has always been viewed, you know, since the Soviet times as the main enemy after all it was founded in one thousand nine forty nine to contain the Soviet Union, and, despite the fact that NATO after the collapse of the Soviet Union declared that, you know, it didn't see Russia's an enemy wanted to work with Russia, it established a NATO Russia council when NATO works with Russia, despite all of those things that wariness really has has remained there. And then, of course, the other thing that the Russians will though they didn't complain about it at the time. But have retroactively complained about it was the enlargement of NATO starting off with, with Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic in nineteen ninety nine with Boris Yeltsin didn't really say very much, but they didn't love it. And then, of course in two thousand four when you had a big enlargement, which included the Baltic states and now and since then Russia, has claimed the, you know, Nater NATO is a number one danger at a time when NATO itself said, we want to work cooperatively with Russia. That's not what the Russians said. But by now, of course from the NATO point of view Russia is a major challenge and adverse read because of what's happened in Ukraine Russian behavior would be any different if NATO enlargement didn't come to Russia's border, right? So this is a subject to big debates. You know, people have said, if only wouldn't we wouldn't have enlarged NATO, this was the original sin, everything would be fine. I'm. Really not. So sure about that, because NATO enlargement in the beginning was largely down also to prevent the central European states who still held a lot of historical grievances against each other to, to get them. You know, the Romanians Hungarians, for instance, to agree that they didn't have territorial claims on each other to get the, the central European countries to be in an alliance where they accepted the other ones bore doesn't work together. If they wouldn't it be NATO enlargement, what would have happened to all of those countries, they would have just been kind of bouncing in be in no-man's-land in between. And then you probably would have had the temptation for Russia, to reassert its influence that so I am not convinced that if they hadn't been NATO enlargement, we'd have a much better relationship with Russia. The Middle East. Do you think about Russian foreign policy in the Middle East? So there I see I see is one of Putin's to successes really. And that's the return to the Middle East in. In fact, probably most successful way than the Soviet Union was ever there because I'm the Putin Russia hasn't chosen sides. The United States has chosen sides, right. We see Iran is a major adversary. An a lot of our policy in the Middle East is directed in that way, the Russians now of the only power in the region. The talks to all sides on in all disputes to Iran and the Shia groups to all the Sunni states, and of course, to Israel, and it's very pragmatic, it's an ideological. And what I see is, for instance, RAI Russia's to newest partners, if you like Saudi Arabia, Israel, both American allies. They both would like Russia to use its influence to Tempa Iranian ambitions in the region. Although I think they overestimate the influence that Russia has, but they, you see in the Saudi case, a lot of this is about oil production. Well oil prices. The Russians are now working with the Saudis and OPEC to try and keep production down with Israel. It's about the war in Syria and about the fact that one point three million Isreaeli citizens, you know, come from the former Soviet Union. But then, you know, expanding its links with Egypt, for instance, my closer ties now economic and military and it's seen as an arbiter of as a neutral arbiter in the way that the United States were not. I mean, the US is obviously much more powerful than Russia. And Russia can't replace the US militarily or economically in the Middle East. But yet the US has not seen as a neutral. You also talk a little bit about Putin's personal reasons for an interest in relations with Israel that I thought was really interesting. Yes. So ironically, whatever you can say about Putin's Russia and what it's like to live in sight Putin's Russia from the point of view of their ability to exercise their religion. This is probably the best time that Jews living in Russia I've ever had in terms of religious. Liberty and, you know, he writes about this, again, in this two thousand autobiographical interview that he grew up in this apartment communal apartment, and there was an elderly Jewish couple there. That was very kind to him when he was growing up. So in which he talks about. And he's, you know, he's visited the country, quite often his favorite German teacher, eventually emigrated to Israel. So they apparently is some personal reason we know that some of the oligarchs whom he's close are also Jews China. Maybe the, the big enchilada here, China you talk about growing cooperation between the two. The director of national intelligence, the last worldwide threat. Testimony made a big deal about the growing cooperation between the two you note in your book, that she ping last year said, quote Putin, is my best, most intimate friend, unquote. What's the basis of this relationship is a tactical strategic how do you think about that? I think it started off being more tactical, but I think now not to exaggerate. It say it's, it's an alliance, but it is quite strategic. I mean, these are two countries that feel that the post cold water hasn't taken their interests into account, and that they need to have more agency in it, and they're both committed to what they call a post west order, now I think their ideas of what that is a different. What Russia wants is probably different from what China wants obviously China, as the rising ecconomic power has a different interest in this as Russia Russia's the junior partner. In this relationship. But so they share at a desire to change the way that really that the world is when they're very sensitive, obviously, to any western attempts to interfere in what they consider their domestic prerogatives. So neither country's going to criticize the other one for lack of democracy. And for pushing. Both of those intervention anywhere else in the world. Exactly. So the whole concept of what we talk about humanitarian intervention. They will disagree with this. The humanitarian intervention the Russians will agree with this, helping, you know, the people in eastern Ukraine, who didn't want to be part of Ukraine. So I think it's a world view that similar it's but the Chinese, you know, they need large amounts of energy. And they've now gotten a good deal with Russia after the sanctions were imposed after the station of Crimea. The Chinese were able to negotiate major gas pipeline deal with Russia on turns that the Russians would have would not have accepted before the sanctions. But they didn't have any choice and for the Russians, you know, the Chinese back them up on all of them, major foreign policy issues, the Chinese did, abstain, when the general assembly voted to condemn Russia for the annexation of Crimea. They did not support the Russians there. But in general, they vote together on the United Nations Security council and the Russian support the Chinese on all of them, major. Foreign policy issues. So it's, it's, it's pragmatic, it's instrumental, but we now see military cooperation for the first time you had Chinese troops participating in Russian military exercises. Last full in the eastern part of Russia. We now see this. There's going to be more sort of training, an cooperation with the F four so slowly, the military aspect of this, I think is getting close, so Angela up to ask about the dichotomy you, you raise this earlier. But I want to come back at it directly, the dichotomy between Russia's role in the world and the size and health of its economy. Right. How does how possible so throughout the centuries? When Russia I became a great power in the nineteenth century, it's always only being able to act as a great Powell by virtue of its military presence were ability to project, military power, rather than economically, because it's always been. Economically behind Europe behind the more developed countries. And rusher is able to do this. And I think part of this is in the post-soviet Rome Russia is by far, the strongest military power. So that's easy. It's easy for them to do whatever they've done in Ukraine to send soldiers there. I mean, Ukrainian army is no match for them or in other parts of the, you know, the frozen conflicts of the post-soviet space, that's easy in Syria. You know, they've, what they've done in Syria. They've done with fairly limited resources, they haven't not that many soldiers and, and have gone that casualties haven't been that big. So they've managed to do that on a fairly tight budget if you like and even what we see now in Venezuela. It'll be interesting to see what happens there. But so far, you know, it, it hasn't cost them so much able to project military power on the cheap fairly successfully, particularly, where in areas where they're surprising the west or where the. West doesn't want to respond. I mean obviously, the US NATO was not gonna go directly against the Russians in Ukraine, even though NATO's beefed off its troops, true presence in that area. And I think that is that they're not is how they are able to do it. None of these are massive military, interventions and the other the other tool, they use writers and very capable intelligence services. And at the end of the day intelligence is not that expensive. No, exactly. It's the intelligence of his, and they, they as, as we know they all very good. And as we know in our own case, they've been able to exploit obviously, the, the weaknesses, both in social media and in the cyberspace to their own advantage. So interesting at the end of the day. So here's one of the things I struggle with, and the end of the day, when I look at Putin in Russian foreign policy, I wonder whether it serves the long term interests of the country or not, or is it actually doing a disservice to the long-term future of Russia? How do you think about that question? So. I think you have to think about it that in the long run, what the Russian leadership should do is reform. The economy in such a way that Russia will become a fully modern country. It's not a modern country. It doesn't have modern institutions of governance. It's largely a raw materials exporting state, and if you compare it to its neighbors China, but even not China's smaller countries in Asia, they're going to go ahead. And Russia is going to remain at the, you know, a much lower level, economically without a modern economy, but I was questioned this when I worked in at the national intelligence council, and other places where people to sit down and do scenarios, you try and think what the future is, and you always look at the fundamentals, and you say the Russians can't go on, like this, that populations declining, you know, they're not modernizing the economy and at some point things can collapse. But we do know from history that the Russians managed to carry on an muddle along, you know, they surprise us when they. Do that more than we think they will. So I do think that in the long run. I don't see that Russia's really served by a foreign policy than antagonize, the west that much it would be better from the Russian point of view and economically for them to if we had better relations, because they've got much more, you know, western investment, and things like that. So. And we know that this, you know, as long as Russia continues the way, it is, there's a significant brain, drain at the most talented people who are not staying in Russia, but the emigrating to Europe or the United States, so Australia so in the long run, this doesn't serve their interests that, well, but cutting through the nationalism right to get to ride. You're talking about would be extremely difficult. And the long run, you know is some way away and it certainly beyond the tenure of leading Putin in the Kremlin. Angela, let's finish up with a couple of questions on US policies. You write in the book at the west has had flawed assumptions about Russia. What are those flaws? Well, I think we will probably I'm overly optimistic although understandably, overly optimistic in the nineteen nineties when the Soviet Union collapsed, and I think particularly in the Clinton administration believing that Russia did want to move towards the west and if only we gave them the wherewithal and, and, and worked with them to do that, that, that would be. That choice. And I think, again, if you go back to history, and you look at the long-term factors, I think, for many Russians, you know, developing more like the west being integrated more with the west would have to them being seen as something where they had very little agency and they were junior partners. And I think we underestimated the degree to which the loss of great power status or however, it was presented to the population really had a very profound impact on people. And so I think those workflow assumptions that doesn't mean that we can work with Russia or we couldn't if were circumstances better. But I think in the future US has to be more realistic about what Russia is and how it's likely to develop with us, flawed assumptions shared by shared broadly by Russia, experts or or was really talking about the, the people making policy. Well it where people making policy, but interestingly enough, some of the most tough. Anti-soviet think, you know, experts academics think tank because they were very enthusiastic because I think a lot of people maybe focus too much on the fact that the reason the Soviet Union have acted the way it has had. It was because it was at least nominally a Marxist Leninist, communist country, even though probably didn't believe that and not realizing enough that a lot of one informs the way that Russia acts is Russian and is going back, you know, into Russian history, and, and, and the ideology that you saw in the Soviet period was kind of superimposed on historical traditions, that have reasserted themselves, the IC share in mistake, about the assumptions were was the I more sober more realistic. I think they will probably more sober and realistic, which of course, led to all the debates the, you know that we know about now about, whether, you know, Gorbachev and people like him with just sort of a passing phenomenon. If we applied the more accurate, assumptions right? About where this policy is coming from, and enduring it is, what should be our policy. Well, I think we do we have to work with Russia on some issues, we should have very realistic expectations. But there are issues for instance arms control. I mean, we have a, a major treaty that's going to expire the new start treaty. In twenty twenty one these areas whereas the two worlds two nuclear superpowers with what ninety three percent of the of the of the weapons, we do need to work with the Russians, and there are other areas where we could work with the Russians we have worked with them, not with successfully on counter-terrorism, but sometimes it's worked so we have to define narrowly where we need to work with them, but not have any illusions about the fact that thing going to move any closer to view of the world than we have at the present. And then, and there are other issues you compartmentalize the relationship the Arctic. This is an area where we're both working together with them. And as we now read, there's also a. Military buildup, and we can become competitive there. So probably, we're now in a stage where we are again, global competitors in a way that we weren't before, even though again, the US is much stronger than Russia's still and identify those, those narrow areas where we can work together and we're we're they're creating that turbulence in the world, what do we do? So then we have to really devise better ways of deterring them, you know, one of countering them clearly, first of all issues like cyber election interference which continues to today we have to we have to build up our defenses and where appropriate respond to them. But so far we have done very well. In deterring Russia, am I think we're often surprised by what they do. And so, I think we have to have we have to be somewhat better at thing, you know, thinking about where they might go next of, of being forward, looking and thinking about that. Although that's difficult. The authors Angeles sent the book is Putin's world. Angela, thanks for taking. The time with us. Thank you. That was Angeles stent. I Mike Morell. Please join us next week for another episode of intelligence matters. This has been the intelligence matters podcast with former acting director of the CIA, Michael Morell, sponsored by Raytheon. The podcast is produced by elevate gases. Jamie Benson and any guitar. If you haven't already subscribe rate and review wherever you download podcasts. You can follow the show on Twitter at Intel matters, pod, and follow Michael at Michael, Jay, morelle intelligence matters production of CBS News Radio.

President Putin Ukraine Russians Soviet Union Russia Angela stent Syria Russia United States KGB east Germany Russia Ukraine NATO Raytheon Crimea Europe post-soviet Rome Russia president
Impeachment Is a Real Crapshoot

Slate's The Gist

33:51 min | 1 year ago

Impeachment Is a Real Crapshoot

"Hi, Mike Pasco. We've got a great show for you today. But before we launch into it. Here's word from our first sponsor this episode is brought to you by Doctors Without Borders. Doctors Without Borders is a humanitarian organization that provides the lifesaving medical care and advocacy for the people who need it most. When the world is watching Doctors Without Borders is there with support from their donors their doctors, and nurses are able to treat malnutrition malaria and other diseases that disproportionately affected areas of emergency and conflict around the globe. Consider donating today at doctorswithoutborders dot org slash donate. Also, we have a favor to ask we're conducting a survey and be grateful for your help and answering a few questions, it'll take less than ten minutes of your time, and your participation helps support our advertisers. And that helps support the gist. Please go to slate listening dot com to complete the short survey. Now, thank you the following recording. May contain explicit language. I can't. Get more explicit than may say it may. It's Wednesday January second twenty nineteen from slate. It's the gist. I might pass the second day of our new year the thirteenth day of the government shutdown our long national nightmare. Maybe Jackley a nightmare. It's more like waking up for a drink in the middle of night. And a couple more minutes to get back to sleep thinking like, but then when you do you get paid? Our long national that thing that I just described drags on. Look, it's not that I'm insensitive to the pains of the shutdown. It's that the vast majority of Americans are insensitive to said pains, there are costs don't buy that there aren't costs. It is hurting the macro economy. It is diminishing the fees. The government takes in the government needs money to either going to have to tax you more or go deeper into debt. There are all these unseen functions that the government does that people actually do need, HUD approval here a small business loan there. A bureau of engraving work order over yonder. But this doesn't register beyond. The general sentiment of government is a shambles. These clowns in Washington can't get along which doesn't punish or favor any actor even the actor. Who said, you know, what I'll say, yes, if we don't get what we want one way or the other whether it's through you through. Military through anything you want to call. I will shut down to go, and I am throughout and I am proud to shut down the government for border security the sympathetic stories. You hear of those victimized by the shutdown include native Americans who need medical care people who rely on the department of agriculture's nutrition assistance programs in other words, the most vulnerable, but guess what the people who know or care about the most vulnerable are already blaming Trump. It's not going to move the needle. So in the Goshi ations, they speak of things called pressure points or pain points, and the problem is perverse. As this may seem the problem in why this shutdown is still going on why they're not shutting down the shutdown. The problem is there is not enough widespread. Pain to prod the talks along, although the national parks are dealing with a veritable shit storm the vault toil. Islets in the parks, and there are few flush toilets. So the vault toilets are near capacity. And there is no one there to empty them at the Joshua tree national park. So that park will be shutting down and shitting up. I did read the sentence in the Washington Post, quote once those porta potties fill up. There is no amount of cleaning. That will save them says Sabir Purdy who owns a rock climbing service there at that point. I think I'm going to have to tap out tap out pass out. Anyway, it reminds me of the old saying Kokos flows downhill, and like the Bard told Woodward and Bernstein, follow the feces, and in this case it's coming from all the way at the top on the show today. I feel about the leaked Louis C K set and the techniques he wants used that. He's now incapable or uninterested of employing. But first a political scientist who served in the CIA. During the presidencies of Bill Clinton, and George W Bush. He was a manager an officer and intelligence briefer. He's been on top of the latest Muller investigation while at the same time he's looking back. David Preece has a new book out. It's called how to get rid of a president. It's so astute that some in DC have been heard muttering who will rid us of this meddlesome priest not the gist. He's up next. Do you ever? Find yourself waiting for your news feed on Facebook or Twitter. Wishing you could just call someone up and ask what do I really need to pay attention to hear? Well, what if you could? I'm Mary Harris, the host what next slates new news podcast and every weekday morning. I'm going to be on for you taking you inside one story going deep behind the headlines. What next is news? You're not going to get the scrolling through your phone to listen subscribe now on apple podcasts Spotify or wherever you listen. Peanut butter. Well, that's how to get rid of gum in the hair, a tomato juice bath. That is how to get rid of when you get sprayed by a skunk. Or when you're golden retriever does. But how to get rid of a president? They've tried guns and bombs and flying an airplane into the White House. They actually kind of tried that was thwarted they've tried impeachment. They've tried freezing the president out. They've tried denying the president of renomination and everyone's favourite president loses at the ballot box in new book called how to get rid of president is subtitled histories guy to removing unpopular unable or unfit chief executives the author is David Preece. Hello, david. How are you? Hello. How are you? So which president would be tomato juice bath. Who would that apply to you know, let's go with one of the lesser known ones. Got no one will be able to call us out say Franklin Pierce. That's his thing. So I loved the parts about Tyler and Taylor. And this is just a strong legislative branch. And you know, even earlier even maybe Monroe a strong legislative branch. Just denies the guy his agency, but with the presidency becoming more powerful is that even possible anymore. It is possible. There's no reason that we can't revert back to the article one legislature doing its job, and it's been an aberration for a while we have the imperial presidency and all of these powers both being taken by and being green to to the executive branch. But there's no reason it has to be that way. In fact, some people thought with the election of two thousand sixteen that we would institutionally see that happening hasn't worked out. But nothing stopping what about the Andrew Johnson lesson is that so far away to be inapplicable to today. Yeah. The the backstory on Andrew Johnson quickly was that he came into office when ABRAHAM LINCOLN was shot and killed, but he was from a different party. And he was generally an asset. He didn't treat people. Well, even his own friend called Joe faces, but the technical term was asset. We'd have to find the primary sources. But I believe that's the connotation, and he definitely didn't get along with anybody, including people he needed to get on his own side people who are inclined to believe in him still he alienated them. So he ended up becoming the first impeached president because he just couldn't seem to get along with anybody. Now that was a case. Yes of congress exerting itself. I mean, they they impeached him. They came damn close to removing him. But it was also a case of institutional restraint because the Republicans had a two thirds majority in the Senate, which is enough according to the constitution to remove a president who has been impeached, and they still didn't do it because they thought that they could do just as well if he was in office for a few more months, and then they get their own guy in is the failed conviction. So impeachment foul conviction. Did that in any way change the conception of the threshold to impeach president? And what I specifically mean is there was no underlying crime there were misdeeds, and he was terrible president and hated, but you know. It's kind of aid in the constitution as to the definition of high crimes and misdemeanors. So did this change anyone's mind about the threshold for impeachment? You know, it didn't seem to I phoned some of the contemporary accounts that talked about why some of the representatives and senators later regretted their votes one way or another. But almost always they regretted it in terms of impeaching him. And then voting to convict, but it didn't seem to change the national conversation about impeachment. It was still seeing that the impeachment by the house of representatives itself was a stern rebuke. And it was thought that very impeachment led to a change in the behavior of Andrew Johnson. He was a little bit less of a jerk after this. It seemed like this was his wakeup call. Not to mention that he made some promises about things he would do better in order to avoid conviction and removal, but it didn't seem to change the notion of impeachment itself as a rebuke that came much later with Bill Clinton's impeachment. You know, you mentioned there in that answer that impeach. Itself. I think with President Clinton it was seen as a failed process that there was an impeachment in no conviction. And you know, what what what a shame that was and what Ed on the face congress had, and it would just be seen as I guess an indictment no conviction in the prosecutor would get embarrassed. But back then it wasn't seeing that way it seemed to have worked and also the founding fathers. I guess there's some evidence that were that process to play out even the founding fathers would say, well, that's fine. That's what we had intended. Absolutely impeachment doesn't seem to have been intended. As only worth it. If you get a conviction. The idea was the impeachment itself is a slap across the face Bill Clinton, politically was a master of this which is he found that he could use the impeachment as a rallying point his popularity ratings rose during his impeachment and his trial in the Senate such that he had higher popularity reading at the end than he did at the beginning of that process. So where does that leave us in the modern sense, everyone who has a memory of that in? Including some senators who are still on Capitol Hill. Now, they have the memory of if you bring impeachment and you fail to convict it is a political loss and you look foolish. Okay. That changes the dynamic even in the house of representatives to bring impeachment. There's no doubt an impeachment resolution could patch on January fourth. I I think the votes would be there. If people were voting what they thought should happen with this president. But that's probably why the house leadership ain't going to bring it up on the house floor because they see they also have to have the goods to deliver for a conviction in the Senate. Okay. But how much is Bill Clinton actually how much does he actually fit in with because the book is removing unpopular unable or unfit chief executives? He was none of those things. This was an attempt to remove someone who was popular and got a lot more popular in certainly able and fit. Right. I tell you. He was not unpopular. If you go based on polls, he was not unable to do the job. But a majority of the house of representatives thought he was unfit for the office. Within fitness becomes with the grand jury, but fitness then at that point becomes just a self-fulfilling prophecy fitnesses once you once we decide you're unfit. It becomes true. Well, that's it. I mean, high crimes and misdemeanors. You mentioned aren't well defined in the constitution. But it seems to be that impeachment is a remedy for an unfit president somebody who is harming the political fabric itself things like committing perjury things like abusing power things like obstructing Justice definitely fall into that category. And have been used as articles of impeachment for everybody from Lyndon Johnson. I'm sorry, Andrew Johnson through dick Nixon through Bill Clinton. That is what impeachment is about. Now. The fact is the Senate didn't agree that there was worthy removal, why because of that that word high and with Bill Clinton, we gotta be careful how we use that where the idea was that the high in high crimes and misdemeanors has to do with whether it affects matters of state, and they said, yes. Bill Clinton committed perjury. Yes. Bill Clinton obstructed Justice. But he was doing it too. Cover up a personal affair. He wasn't doing it in order to exploit the government for his own pocketbook or to actually destroy the government in some way. So that's I think how senators came down on it and said, yes, the things he did were abhorrent. Personally. He shouldn't have done it. But you don't remove a president for doing those things when it's about a personal issue. Okay. And that is why they're in the last week. There was a question or two big question or they throw a hypothetical to you know, a newsman with throw hypothetical to a pundit. You think this what we know about Donald Trump paying off a porn star to to subvert campaign finance laws. You know, is that alone impeachable and the debate if you want to say, yes, you would talk about the threat to democracy, and how it also there was the attendant blind eye to any Russian interference that went along with it. And if you want to say, no, you would analogize it to Bill Clinton, maybe John Edwards? Since Clint was president. You'd find enough overlap. Oh, it's about the embarrassment of an affair now. I don't think it's even worth getting into the hypothetical because I think a lot of other things are going to come out. So that we won't be asking ourselves. Oh is this F E C violation sufficient to impeach the president. But what do you think of that question? Right. It really goes back to a line that I found from Gerald Ford before he was president. He was involved in house representatives with impeachment of a judge, and he said, you know, high crimes and misdemeanors and therefore impeachment is whatever the house of representatives decides it is. And that is it's left up to each individual member to decide does this rise to that threshold while I gotta tell you. There's a difference between lying about a personal affair because you're barest if it gets out and lying about an affair by paying money when it comes to an election campaign trying to silence someone during the election campaign for the purpose of getting elected. So that changes things a bit doesn't it that? That's a different dynamic for why you're doing it. Then oh, I'd be embarrassed. If somebody finds that I like women who aren't my wife. Well, there was plenty of proof of that. And Donald Trump does not appear to be ashamed by any of that side of it, it appears to have been linked to the campaign itself. So that that is something that some people on the hill could interpret, but that's only one thing. And there are several other things that sure looked like the kinds of things the founders were talking about in terms of corruption getting into office or in terms of abusing the power of the office to protect oneself against criminal investigations. Those are the things that honestly, I'm interested in two things going forward. One is what the special counsel investigation finds. Because the investigatory tools that the special counsel has are well beyond what we've seen in public reporting. And then number two, I wanna see the actual articles of impeachment because if they have specific acts that are no kidding. Obstruction of Justice on that's going to be a lot harder for people just to excuse away way. And to get. To let our audience in on this. How many times have you sat across a desk or a table or touch knees with Robert Muller? Oh, I did not count the times. But it was five or six days a week for more than a year when I was his daily intelligence brief at CIA. He was director of the FBI. And I got to know the way he thinks really well and know how he approaches complex issues and things like this. And I have no shortage of faith based on evidence of working with him that if there's somebody who will not let any stow-n-go on turned. It's about Muller. Okay. I have two more questions. One is a recent polls show that sixty two percent of Americans think that Trump has been untruthful about the Russian probe, and what might say, oh, that's a clear majority. And I might say what the hell's wrong with the other thirty eight percent. Because history happens we think it's inevitable, and I'm really familiar through slow-burn and other reading really familiar with how late in the game. It was for the public to turn on Nixon. What's the usual course of public opinion? Is it late to the game are right now we in a position where a surprisingly significant part of the public is still. Not seeing what is in clear sight about the unfitness or inability of the chief executive, and therefore he's not as unpopular as he needs to be. Yeah, we get into some issues of psychology and framing here in terms of our people seeing it and excusing it away are people seeing it, but not understanding it or people literally not seeing it that is they don't see because of the polarized me. Right there silent in their indie. Literally, don't see these things. I was shocked just recently to see that. When Michael Flynn was in court, and there was supposed to be a sentencing going on. It was the headlines on virtually every media outlet out there. And then I saw on Fox News. The the main story was about whether cookies are male or female haw. And I thought now I'm beginning to understand that sixty to thirty eight percent because when you've got people who aren't seeing the news as it is reported through most outlets, if they're only getting their news through one or a few primary outlets that don't cover that same information. Will they're literally not seeing. Situation the same way as the rest of us. We haven't had a president who from beginning to end, which is the way it's looking has had this low of a floor. The the issue is how come it hasn't moved lower with some of these revelations coming out and that that's hard to say information by us. We in a unique position in terms of here. Let us compare this president to the amount of evidence that has been presented to argue for his inability to do the job comparative to other presidents at this point. Is this president doing better? He he's doing better in that. He still has in a sense part of that polarized media and even part of this party he hijacked to to support him. Now. What does that mean though? Well, either you have what we would call the elites saying, you know, what we realized that the general public is an all seeing the same information. And so in incumbent upon us in let's say an impeachment hearing or then the conviction trial in the Senate. It's incumbent upon us to look at the actual information. Rather than the media spin. Okay. So that's job one. But Jim Komi Senate in April of this year earlier as you referred to. He said short of something that has catastrophic. We should not impeach the president. Because that's a decision that belongs with the American people, and they need to be responsible for doing this directly. Instead of having it done for them indirectly. Well, tell you what sixty to thirty eight percent would put this in one of the most catastrophic elections in history. If those numbers are somewhat relevant to how the election turns out, right? And here's my last question in the past when we have gotten rid of the president by non-violent means when we've decided we are elected officials got together and decided well, this went poorly has America actually flourished as a result. I know the lesson of Watergate and after Watergate there were all these sunshine laws and reform swept through congress and our national politics. But what about the other times? I gotta tell you in writing this book. I felt like I was. Going to very dark place. I was writing about presidents who had severe depression and were incapacitated. Unable to make decisions including ABRAHAM LINCOLN for part of the time. He was in the White House. I was writing about people who were actually taken out by asan's. I was writing stories about presidents who lost their own parties and got kicked out of their own party. While president this is a dark political history. But by the end, I realized wait a minute. I'm looking at this the wrong way, the story here isn't about all the bad presidents. We've had the story here is how we have survived as a country even thrived as a country because we have actually gotten through some crappy leaders and the system has worked. What makes us unique? Isn't the fact that we elect leaders every country select a leader? Somehow, what makes us unique is we have a method every four years and sometimes not for years, less or more. But we have a system by which through several means we can get rid of presidents without going into a civil war or a coup every single time that leaves me feeling. What up to mystic that? When we go through a time. Like this. We ended up getting stronger as a result. Even if the process itself doesn't feel that way. All right. I know I said I was don't my questions, but I just have one more because you raised it our cookies, male or female, I think cookies or whatever you want them to be you can make that cookie. It's it's one of those where you project onto the cookie what you need the most at that moment. And I've had some some really good cookies that I honestly didn't know, and I didn't care sweet David Preece is the author of how to get rid of a president histories guide to removing unpopular unable unfit chief executives. I enjoyed it. Very much. Thank you. Thanks for the chat. It was fun. Now, the spiel Louis C K performed a set at the Long Island comedy clip governors. He has been playing there in the comedy cellar. A few times a week for the last couple of weeks. But this time someone in the audience recorded the set and put it on the internet, which gave rise to the CNN headline comedian Louis C K mocks park land shooting survivors in leaked audio chicago-sun-times headline Louis C K reportedly heard mocking park land survivors, non binary youth in a comedy club. As part of a comedy set those headlines make it sound like he was yelling out things on the twenty three bus. But then he called into C Span's Washington journal Louis from the Lower East Side with a piece of his mind. It turns out something new. We learned that went on not very funny to begin with comedy bit. Get summarized by CNN's over a holiday weekend. Headline writer does not improve one. Could argue it gets a bit. Worse. The Chicago Tribune weekend copy desk, not as good a source of punch-up as the friars just saying, but it wasn't punching up. It was punching down that Louis C K was accused of to quote the Twitter moments feed. And by the way, that is the worst hallmark lines since happy absentee fathers day, but the Twitter moments feed said Louis C K is accused of punching down after footage leaked of him telling jokes about non binary people in school, shooting survivors. Okay. There's a lot about the Louis C K thing that I don't find that interesting. Like the fact that his jokes weren't all that good and his targets didn't deserve them. But also that yes, it was a club set not a polished finish sat and he still figuring things out that we know it I want to get into that those are kind of tedious. But there are couple of things that interest me and one is how Louis used to introduce verboten thoughts to the audience and how he doesn't now. And the second thing is this idea of punching down. So on that note here is joy Behar on today's view his out there kicking what do you call that punching down. We call him the comedy world. There's so many targets to punch up to this Trump. There's everything going on in the world. There's brexit. If you wanna go there, there's a million things to go after why would you pick kids who are suffering because of gun violence kick, the NRA, well Trump and the NRA are such prominent whipping post, they're almost like stations of the comedic cross by now. Yeah. Many Americans want the cathartic comedy of targets that deserve targeting. I think Louis C K is always seen it differently. He's always been more interested in shooing, the familiar and reaching for the third rail. So a rule to have a rule in edict against punching down. It's a silly notion. No such rule ever existed. Because what it does is it proscribes topics? It says these are the good ones. Those are the bad ones and everything depending on execution can be done punch up down sideways or self. If you don't think Louis used to punch down, you don't know comedy, every comedian, you think of as a brave speaker of truth or even just a decent getter of laughs has talked about a group with less privilege than his or her own Louis. Did it Richard Pryor? Did it? Lovely to be. Here says exciting for me, I used to be a teacher. You know, I used to teach English to high school dropouts in the South Bronx. Do you understand what I'm talking about? You know, the kind of kids will go to jail because they kill their parents. Then they send them to me to teach them the difference between who and home. This is the job that I had ladies and gentlemen. Amish mock, I would try to make relevant. I'd say home you wished to America, not hope. That was from nine hundred eighty eight an early HBO special in that special. She called Diana that little anorexic Princess over there, which I take no offense at by the way. But if she said it now, it'd be twenty minutes of hot topics on the view bay are also joked that she didn't like Grand Canyon mules saying I don't trust an animal who wears a hat with holes in it for his years. I found that very funny. I think what really is going on with most of the Louis C K reaction isn't about who he punched or even the whip and crackle of his jabs. Most of it boils down to one truth, which I never had to think of before. But it is a plainly true fact that if you have a burning hatred for someone you will not find that person funny. That'd be fair. A lot of critics of his set. Just flat out said we're not really criticizing his set. We're criticizing him as a person we find what he did horrible. And so we will no longer be able to. Find him funny. If we ever did, by the way, that's fair. That is a critic clearly telling you what his or her motivation is on the other hand. I think a lot of the comedy critics are confusing their hatred of Louis with faultfinding in his jokes. Now, here's the complication his jokes. Weren't that? Good. A lot of them weren't that good. They may have had a premise that could go somewhere. But then they just land lazily with punch lines or tags about using the fat kid as a human shield in a school shooting or Louis saying, he's not they or them. He wants to be known as they're a location, and that location is and then he uses a crew term for your mother's genitals. Which is unfunny because it's unfunny and not because it's insensitive, but because it isn't sensitive it does need to clear a higher bar for funny. And it doesn't come close to doing that. So with all that stipulated. Here's the other fascinating phenomenon. That's at play. Louis has always dealt with the ways in which we process wrong thoughts. Dangerous thoughts. There was this bit on his brilliant thousand fifteen special. Oh my God. I like the thing. I believe the good thing. That's the thing. I believe. And then there's this thing. I don't believe it. But it is there. It's always this thing. And then this it's become a category at my brain that I call a course. But maybe. I'll give you an example. Okay. Like, of course, of course. Children who have nut. Allergies needs to be protected. Of course, we've just segregate their food from nuts have their medication available at all times. Anybody who manufacturers are serves food needs to be aware of deadly nut allergies, of course. But maybe. Maybe if touching nut kills you. You're supposed to die. When Matt Zoller sites of New York magazine reviewed that routine, which he said ranked with the best of George Carlin. He noted that Louis made sure that we felt the innate horror of even thinking such thoughts. Quote, CK is a humanist comic who goes too far with good reason to see what he's capable of thinking and saying then wonder if it's just him or if there's some universal fear or longing or mania, they're so mad Zeller sites. It was Louise grappling with the badness of the thought that made for an exquisite tension. The humanity was born of thinking the bad thing knowing it was bad. And then not knowing what to do with it. Now, a less. High minded interpretation would be that Louis excelled at creating permission for us to laugh at some horrible thoughts, and the great trick is to acknowledge that we all have horrible thoughts and then to establish a conceit which allows for the dissemination of the horrible. Thoughts into polite company that is a classic comic trope. Here's a tape of the comedian Barry Sobel talking to Johnny Carson thirty years ago. I do routine about liberal people. How I don't know if you've ever argue with someone about stereotypes liberals, you know, you gotta go fine. Okay. No stereotype is to find nothing. Nothing is the way you imagine. Filipinos donate dogs. Okay. Five. A lot of Italian businesses over legitimate. I've never seen an Italian woman with a moustache ribs, don't smell Jewish people. Always picking up a check. Okay. Five. Chinese people are excellent drivers. Here's dumb Aurora. He had this way of saying offensive things in his routine about not saying offensive things in his routine. I am not one of these violent bugah comedians. I say on acute words, excuse me. I have to pull excuse me. I have to. Not that I have to pin chair low for two Cup. Spot some logs or the heave Havana. These disgusting things, and I don't talk like that do you? So Louis also does this with his, of course. But maybe stick which pivoted on good man's quest. Not to be terrible. Whereas in the routine that was just leaked from the comedy club. He's straight up engages in just the stuff. That's terrible the audience and the club cackled, but a lot of people who heard it or discovered it through those premium purveyors of comedy content, cog Tribune didn't think it was shockingly or delightfully or transgressive -ly terrible. They thought it was just terrible Louise latest routine dispenses with any of the pretense of pretending to care about societal approval. But it is a work in progress. Still we have to say if the act he finally lands on not the act he's tinkering with the club. But the act that he presents on stage and says this is my act if that has the amount of straight ahead vitriol in it that we heard on the league tape that will all be justified in saying. Louis C K is satisfied to connect only with that part of the audience who laughs at an art LA's jab of a finger in the eye and who calls that commentary. But there is still a chance I believe that he can try to reach out to a broader group if he cares too. If he's not too bitter or self pitying, if he's interested in being closer to the comedian who had the ability and desire to mean, more to people, then just the some of his nastiest thoughts and deeds. And that's it for today show. Hey, the gist has a newsletter. We haven't had a five day week to properly plug it. But it comes out every Saturday. It's at slate dot com slash gist news, I will answer the following Barry Sobel related trivia question in the newsletter, as you know, Barry Sobel starred in revenge of the nerds partout nerds in paradise. How is that movie deeply connected to first amendment law nerds in paradise first amendment law? What's the connection Daniel Schrader and peer Biennale may produce the gist? They know there must be fifty ways to lose a president. Oh, there must be fifty ways to lose a President Yeltsin eight the folk poke it's quite a tough trick, dick. You get sent to the grave, Abe. These kind of dark TD Rafaello senior producer of sleep podcast. She knows that a two thirds vote in the Senate is tough to pass. But if they do that the vote is shorter last it's one of fifty ways to lose a president your reelection won't last Taft. If you're like Millard, he was publicly pilloried Phil more was bore you suffer from a comparison to William Henry Harrison just put on a coat Bill and you'll catch a cold. You may make the entire press corps pissed and they say, you know, you've lost America. When you've lost the gist, which is actually what they said to Andrew Johnson Hooper. Deborah, do Peru and thanks for listening.

president President Clinton Senate Louis Donald Trump Louis C K chief executive America Andrew Johnson congress CIA Robert Muller Barry Sobel David Preece Louis C Twitter Washington Post White House ABRAHAM LINCOLN
THE 27 CLUB

What Really Happened?

43:19 min | 2 years ago

THE 27 CLUB

"Welcome to a new episode of what really happened produced by Dwayne, the rock Johnson, Danny Garcia, Brian, Goertz, and cadence. Thirteen. Now our show is only as good as our listeners. Y'all fact check me provide new insight, give your opinions and to become a contributor, simply go to Jenks pod dot com. Slash contributors or call four one, three, four, seven one, two, nine, seven, five. Thank you for being a listener and voice for the podcast. In the last few years NFL star, Aaron, Hernandez, musician, and rapper freight. Oh, Santana, k, pop star, Kim, Jong young all died at twenty seven years old upon their death. Many publications made a point of saying that they joined a special club a special club. You may ask, well, picture, perhaps somewhere in heaven, six positions, they're at a private club. They're in different parts of the large elegant living room that offers fine dining, a wall of interesting in wide ranging literature and obviously comfortable expensive sofas and shares near the entrance is Amy wine house. She's focused while writing in her notepad which isn't a surprise. If you watch the documentary, Amy, you'll see a scene in which she is inside a studio, writing the lyrics for her back to black album. Unlike many pop stars of her era. Wine-house for this critically acclaimed album co wrote only four of the songs and herself wrote the rest of the album. This led to five Grammies in two thousand and eight tying the record at the time for most wins by a female artist in one night in two thousand one wine-house house died of alcohol poisoning. She was twenty seven years old on the other side of the room is Brian Jones from the Rolling Stones. It's hard to see him because there are a variety of instruments surrounding him. He seems like a mechanic obsessed with his tools, the sitter saxophone, oboe, and a dulcimer a Falk instrument which few know of and apparently dates back to the early nineteenth century where it was used somewhere in the Appalachian mountains. Bill Wyman, bass guitarist, further Rolling Stones. Once said, Brian Jones formed the band. He chose the members. He named the band in nineteen sixty-nine. Brian Jones drowned in a swimming pool at his home while under the influence of. Drugs. He was dead at twenty seven years old quietly working away with a companion in the middle of this lavish room is Jim Morrison. Jim would rather be in a corner or one side of the room like the others, but space is limited. Jim says to his friend, hey, listen, I don't know how to write songs. Got these words in my head and the only way I can remember them is with melodies Jim finds a quieter side room and sings a cappella. A song like crystal ship has a complicated melody, but Jim sings it and his fellow musician says, holy shit, wait a minute, f, sharp. Let's do that. Jim couldn't play a chord on any instrument, but he had this orchestra in his head. Morrison is considered one of the greatest singers in rock recorded six studio albums with his band, the doors and is well known for his poetry Morrison's. Death was likely from congestive heart failure while in a bathtub. Some have disputed this for different reasons, including there is no. Oh, autopsy done and changing stories from those who were around him at the time when he died in nineteen seventy-one Rolling Stones headline didn't mention his music. Instead, it said James Douglas Morrison, poet dead at twenty-seven. Unlike anyone else at this private club, Kirk Cobain has wandered up onto the second floor and discovered. There was an easel that was intended to be highbrow decoration for the prestigious club, but Cobain didn't consider this found it to be a waste of a perfectly usable easel and got to work. His painting is coming together. It will be extraordinary. Kurt was a prolific artist and frontman of nirvana considered one of the greatest bands of all time in nineteen Ninety-four four, he committed suicide. He was twenty seven years old. Janice Joplin is hard to see it. I, she also has found a corner, but there's a group of people as it turns out, mentors surrounding her job. Pleine was self taught listening and studying Billie holiday Otis, Redding and endless others Joplin admired Bessie Smith so much. She paid for tombstone to be erected where Smith is unmarked. Grave had been Joplin has been called the first lady and Queen of rock and roll. Sure means one of the top selling musicians in US history in one thousand nine hundred seventy. She died of a heroin, overdose. She was twenty seven years old. He may be alone and not talking anyone, but Jimi Hendrix is easy to spot with blue velvet pants and a shiny red top with an oversized. Well, perfectly oversized scarf. He isn't surrounded by people like Joplin, but a variety of strings. When Hendrix was about twelve years old. He was with his younger brother, Leon clearing the garage, Leon remembered. There was a ukulele. It had one string, and that's where Jimmy started. He took it one string and when he wanted to. Change notes. He tighten and loosen it, and that's how he started to make music. He said, wow, I get the whole range on one string. It was like Jimmy could just about play anything on one string here music, and he learned it. Music has a spirit and Jimmy felt that spirit. The rock and Roll Hall fame describes Hendrix as arguably the greatest instrumentalist in the history of rock music Rolling Stone has considered him the greatest artists of all time in one thousand nine hundred seventy sleeping medication caused an accidental overdose. He was twenty seven years old. These are the six musicians in the club all six tragically dead at twenty seven years old. They have become known as the main members of the twenty seven club. In fact, they are part of a larger club of which there is at least fifty members. Fifty musicians who have all died at twenty seven years old author Howard soon. NHS has written by fees on Bob Dylan, Amy wine house, Charles Bukowski and is author of the book twenty-seven a history of the twenty seven club Howard cataloged three thousand four hundred sixty three people between nineteen o eight and two thousand twelve all cheating. Notoriety in popular music. He sorted out at what age each person died. The oldest person was a hundred and five years old and the youngest was fifteen twenty nine individuals died at twenty five years old thirty individuals died at twenty six years old. Suddenly at twenty seven years old fifty died when twenty eight years old. The number of deaths goes back down to thirty two and a twenty nine years old thirty four deaths. That means the average age of death in the two years before twenty seven and after twenty-seven is just over thirty artists, but at twenty seven years. Old. It is nearly twice the number. There have been books and documentaries examining the twenty seven club even studies in academic papers. Many of looked at this and considered the club a curse. There are endless theories. Why? Those at twenty seven years old seemed to die at an unusually high rate. I wanna know what really happened. For years. I thought a lot about this twenty seven club. I pitched a scripted series HBO about eight years ago in a documentary series to a few production companies only a year or so ago. If you go online, you'll see endless articles about it. When this term the twenty seven club actually started is unknown. It seems to have taken off by the media and public at large after Kurt Cobain died. It is reported that his mother said, I told him not to join that stupid club. However, whether she was referring to others who had died at twenty seven or was referring to potential suicides in the family is unknown. Author, Charles r cross said Hendrix Morrison and Joplin all were at least lucky enough to die before the internet entertainment tonight, and people magazine it wasn't until Kirk Cobain took his own life in nineteen Ninety-four that the idea of the twenty seven club arrived in the popular zeitgeist. Cockbain suicide set off a worldwide media onslaught, and Cobain's mother added to the launch of the club concept, much of the coverage of this club focuses on six of the most famous musicians who died at twenty seven. The six. I mentioned earlier here in order of when they died, Brian Jones, Jimi Hendrix, Janice Joplin, Jim Morrison, Kurt cobaine, and Amy wine house when studying all six, there are interesting similarities outside of just their age. One genius in his early days. Jim Morrison was certainly known for his good looks is what many of us imagined when talking about a rockstar, moody, sexy, scandalous noted for taking a piss wherever he wanted as a result. Morrison's brains were sometimes overlooked for my young age. She loved poetry history, philosophy unit. When he graduated high school, he asked his parents if they'd get. him. The works of Nici. A genius is considered somebody with an IQ above. One forty. Morrison is reported to have an IQ level of about one hundred forty nine, Amy wine house was a bookworm at a young age reading literature, ranging from catch twenty two to art Spiegelman's Maus wine house was a spelling bee champion and advanced mathematics. This genius or at very least incredible intellect, and creativity is clear with each member of this club. The second similarity, divorce or traumatic experiences with parents. Amy wine house was nine years old. When her parents split Kirk, Cobain was also nine years old. When his parents divorced. He wrote on his bedroom wall. I hate mom, I hate dad, dad hates mom. Mom hates dad. Kurt was ultimately sent to live with his cousins eventually becoming virtually homeless when Jimi Hendrix was fifteen years old. Old, his mom died behind a bar after collapsing. His dad wouldn't let Jimmy go to the funeral. Jim Morrison's, father, an army guy was always moving. And Jim wrote about wanting to kill his dad and refuse to ever see him in Brian Jones's Lee teens, his parents were so sick of his lifestyle. He came home one night to find his suitcase. In the driveway, said, Pat Andrews girlfriend of Brian's and mother to one of his children. The one thing Brian wanted was first father more so than his mother to say, Brian, I'm proud of you. The third similarity, a family history of mental health issues. This is tough because to this day, people are afraid of talking about their own mental health issues and any history of this in once family still faces the stigma that comes along with it. Family records, oftentimes avoid whatever the reality was according to Howard soons his book about the twenty seven club. There was a history of odd behavior. And violent death and Kirk Cobain's extended family on his mother's side. Kurtz great grandfather died in a mental hospital of a self inflicted stab wound on his father's side. Kurtz great-grandfather, a county sheriff died in bizarre circumstances. Reaching for a cigarette. He dislodged his pistol which fell to the ground went off and shot him dead to of sheriff cobaine sons chose suicide by gunshot Jim Morrison, Janice Joplin, and Jimi Hendrix families all had a history of alcoholism. The fourth similarity, each individual showed signs of severe mental health issues. Several people in Brian Jones's life believed he had bipolar disorder, also known as manic depression. Linda Lawrence, who had a child with Brian said, the parents thought he was just a bad child. He was a sick human being that needed comfort and love. While in highschool aiming wine house was asking her mother who was. A pharmacist why she felt depressed. Wine house began taking medication later in life. She would take the anti anxiety medication. LeBron a drug Janice Joplin used for similar reasons, Joplin herself. Once wrote in a letter, I wanna be happy. So fucking bad at seven years old. Kerr Cockbain was considered hyperactive and put on Ritalin. So a quick break here to talk about ring ring is making a difference for millions of people because they do a really impressive job of making neighborhoods safer. They do this by using smart video, doorbells and cameras in an incredibly simple way ring helps you stay connected to your home anywhere in the world. I'm able which still amazes me to use my phone to see what's going on at all times. If there's a package delivery or surprise visitor, I get an alert and I get it from my phone. I can talk to them yo, what's up, criminal? What are you looking to get my neighbor actually has some pretty good stuff. You can also see the criminal or whomever in HD. So if you're like me and you want to edit a video of them snooping around to put on YouTube, you totally can, but more seriously outside of my incredible jokes ring helps you stay connected to your home anywhere in the world and as a listener, you have. Special offer on a ring starter kit available right now with a video doorbell and motion activated floodlight Cam, the starter kit has everything. You need to start building a ring of security around your home. Just go to ring dot com. Slash w. r. h. that's ring dot com. Slash w. r. h.. The fifth similarity drugs and alcohol. Kerr, Cockbain and Janice Joplin were addicted to heroin Hendrix used LSD cocaine, in a means more. Sin used LSD mescaline amphetamines and many believe died of an accidental heroin, overdose all drank to excess and all smoked a lot of weed. I spoke with Charles r cross author of the New York Times bestselling book, heavier than heaven. The definitive two thousand one biography of Kirk Cobain. He also wrote room full of mirrors a biography on Jimi Hendrix cross is one of the top music journalists in the world. He pointed out that it's important to not get lost in certain narratives and remember the nuance and layers in people's lives not to mention the facts. Many people talk about Jimi Hendrix and they talk about his life as it is the life of a drug addict. I think that's really overstating it because I think his accessibility in the. Availability of any of these drugs, and in fact, is ability to pay for them really only would have even come up in the last year and a half of his life to Charles point. I don't want to make it seem like these musicians lives are somehow exactly the same. We are talking about unique artists, but there is without a doubt, similarities, the six similarity that I want to bring up all six seemed to have felt trapped for significant portions of their lives, and it certainly sucks to be trapped. Imagine that feeling, but being an artist when your entire livelihood centers around expression, Kirk Cobain, chronicle this feeling throughout his childhood in a small town, a hundred miles south west of Seattle Hendrix, felt trapped as his family moved frequently. Also around the Seattle area Joplin hated her high school so much. She go onto say, they laughed me out of class out of town and out of state when Jimmy. Hendrix, finally could leave home. He desperately wanted to play music, but instead felt forced to join the army. He'd send letters to his father, pleading for him to send over his Petar like other musicians when Hendrix did reach fame. He felt audiences trapping him to only performing the songs they had come to love for Jimmy. There was also race, Charles r, cross added. You know, Jimmy just simply could not be accepted in African American radio lack stations in America with not play him, and he felt to some degree betrayed by that at the same time, he was trapped within a worldwide rock culture, and everybody wanted to hear purple haze and here in Sweden on the electric guitar. Jimmy wasn't as interested in that last and most important. All six were extremely talented. I think what was amazing about Jimmy for himself awareness is that music was away for him to. Express themselves emotionally. He wasn't a big talker. He wasn't somebody who sat down and said, hey, I've got a lot going on. Listen to me talk about this. He wasn't very analytical about himself. And yet at the same time, once you put a guitar in his hand, he was able to then use music to kind of create this picture of his emotion. Jimmy said that he saw music colors. I truly think he was a musical genius and like some of the grey classical composers. He was in some ways touched by what he was able to create what he was able to actually do with this instrument. You know he was smarter than people want to remember. There are several other similarities. Each have been reported to have premonitions about their own untimely death. Each had run ins with the law, each rose to fame relatively quickly in some cases extraordinarily quickly and each had complicated relationships with lovers. Why do these similarities matter? We'll get there, but I, it's important to note that in addition to the musicians of the twenty-seven club, there are also world renown artists who have died at twenty-seven. Perhaps the most celebrated artist of his generation was John Michel Basquiat who died at twenty-seven like many others in this club. He died of a drug. Overdose also came from a small town move frequently as a child and showed signs of brilliance at eleven years old. He was fluent in Spanish, French and English, and could read very techs in these respective languages at thirteen years old. His mother committed him to a mental institution at fifteen years old. His father left his son on the streets. His rise to fame was quick at just twenty four years old. He appeared on the cover of the New York Times magazine in a feature titled new, our new money, the marketing of an American artist. There are also those who have died or had several mental health issues that appear to fit a breaking point right around twenty seven years old at twenty-six Britney Spears infamously, went to rehab only to leave a day later and shave her head in front of cameras, and thus the world heath ledger died when he was Twenty-eight. His former wife said for as long as I'd known him, he had bouts with insomnia. He had too much energy. His mind was turning turning turning, always turning. I'm sort of hesitant to talk about the following. But if we're going to do an episode on this twenty-seven club, it doesn't take a lot of searching around or reading different books to see why those who believe in supernatural or mystical forces. Have really latched onto something unexplainable happening at twenty-seven according to certain mystic and Christian theologies. The number twenty seven is known as the death number twenty-seven is a lunar symbol of the divine light. Ancient Greek philosophy in a complex system that used numbers to explain the universe proposed that twenty-seven represented the process of the soul being reabsorbed into its creator in the Bible's book of Genesis. God creates humans in the twenty seventh verse in Buddhist philosophy, twenty seven is the highest level of spiritual taint accounting for leap years and measuring a year as three hundred sixty five and a quarter days. There are thirty one million, five hundred fifty, seven thousand six hundred seconds in a year. The some of those numbers is twenty-seven. But at what point can retake any number and begin to assign some sort of larger meaning to it. I'm not doubting the importance of astrology. Or numerology right now for this portion, I'm going from fact checking to an opinion, but I think there's a massive reach to start drawing correlations between the meanings of twenty-seven. And these people dying at twenty seven years old with the help of Jonathan Harris and others I could now talk forever about twenty-seven. The diameter of the moon is point two, seven, two times that of earth approximately twenty seven percent. The atomic weight of Aluminum's only stable isotope is twenty-seven according to hang sh- way. It's good luck to have twenty-seven identical coins at home in baseball. Each team has twenty-seven outs twenty-seven is a perfect cube three by three by three. The English alphabet contains twenty six characters. In the seventh century, European monks invented the white space character between words and the alphabet. Now contains twenty seven characters. I'm thirty two years old while writing this which means I've lived for two hundred and eighty six thousand five hundred twenty seven hours. If I was reading this in the federated states Micronesia, otherwise, not twenty-seven. The more I studied numbers and understood the thinking behind supernatural or mystical forces the more I found myself thinking, well, twenty-seven is certainly a number with a lot of meetings behind it. Twenty seven is the age. These individuals died, but just simply pointing this out is about all you can do trying to connect. The two feels forced. It is forced. It reminds me of the danger of conspiracy theories. You see different things going on and attempt without facts to connect them. Let's say you're looking at a piece of paper and there are two dots. One dot represents people dying at twenty seven and the other dot represents the meanings of the number twenty seven, but I'm doing right now is trying to create a line that connects these two dots, but that's all I'm doing. Trying opposed to explanations that we've talked about explanations which can cause an early death drugs and alcohol, family history of mental health issue. Use fame depression or lack of support. There is a line connecting those dots and the dots of those who have died at twenty seven years old. If you're interested in exploring this further, there is plenty of reading out there on the meaning behind twenty-seven. And any correlations this may have, but not for me. And with all this information, I took a deep breath and went back to the drawing board. So as many of you know, I'm really proud to have some great sponsors this year for our podcast. And that includes an app which I constantly use like a few times a day use, and that is com- com- has helped me quite a bit. It is the number one app for sleep, meditation and relaxation. It was even named apples 2017 app of the year. If you had to calm dot com slash w. r. h. they'll get twenty five percent off com premium subscription which includes hundreds of hours of premium programming, including guided meditations on issues like anxiety, stress, and focus, including a brand new meditation each day called the daily com. Sleep stories, which are like bedtime stories for Dulce. I have been using them every night. Com has over one hundred of these soothing tales read by well known voices to help people unwind and fall into a deep sleep. For a limited time. What really happened listeners that's all of you can get twenty five percent off Akam premium subscription ADT com dot com. Slash w. r. h. it includes unlimited access to all of coms amazing content get started today at com dot com. Slash w. r. h. that c. a. l. m. dot COM slash w. r. h.. When doing research for each episode, I always try to remind myself and I know mocked me if you think this is cheesy, but I try to remind myself of the George Orwell quote to see what is in front of one's nose needs constant struggle. Maybe this happens in your life when you've been preparing for some big event. And then when the special day comes, you've realized what's the address again, what my wearing? Did I get a gift, an oversight of the most obvious form a few days ago. I was in a cab home from psychiatry point of all things when I thought. All right, are twenty-seven club episode is coming up. Is there anything I missing? One component I began harping on is something that's been on my mind this whole time, and that is the word club in the twenty seven club. I was somewhere in the mid seventies in central park. When I looked up the word to make a long story short, generally speaking club is a good thing to be a part of a sports club, a book club, a dance. Club, there's exceptions like anything, but generally speaking, you wanna be in a club, the twenty seven club sounds like this to at least for me. It doesn't just sound like something special, but something you'd want to be in. And then I thought, well, maybe it's an ode to these great musicians. If you're going to die at a young age, this is an impressive group to be with, but then it kind of hit me in all likelihood, the last thing these six members would ever want to be a part of some sort of club. We're talking about world-class rebels, individual thinkers, these were artists who were the least likely people to ever join any type of club far more seriously and less of me participating is proof that these musicians didn't wanna be a part of this club. We know this because they asked oftentimes pled for help help for their depression, mood swings, drug habits, help from their own family and friends. If there is such a twenty-seven club, they add. Actively were hoping not to be a part of it. If you haven't seen the kademi award winning documentary on any wine house called Amy, I'd highly recommend it. It's directed by Asif Kapadia while researching this episode of the podcast. And after we watching the film and going down the rabbit hole of reading more about us process while working on the movie, I came across the below quote also is talking about one of Amy's most well known songs titled rehab before getting to this quote for those that don't know, Amy song was a smash hit. The catch is part of the song which you could literally hear people singing along to when walking down the street was they tried to make me go to rehab. And I said, no, no, no. I remember exactly where I was. When I first heard this song, Chelsea New York twenty third street. I felt weird like, yeah, I don't know a better word than that feeling weird when listening, maybe it's my own struggles with mental health. But wine houses song quite clearly is about a person saying. They should be getting help, but aren't however, like most, I can't say this stop me from listening to the song instead I did so endlessly director Asif Kapadia in the interview, I read said the following about Amy's thoughts. I don't think she liked the song. It's dark and it's a cry for help. I think she was surprised. It became a hit. The trouble was already there, but that's when it really kicked off that song becomes, I think the thing that she hated people wanted her to sing it and she singing it with a drink. In her hand, it's a cry for help every time she says, no, she saying yes. Oh shit. I thought in retrospect I was or I am part of the problem. I was one of many celebrating a song about a person badly hurting and pleading for help. So I tracked down also on Twitter, asked if he could semi his Email, he was kind enough to respond in. I emailed him. I set up a time and called him for an interview. But off in the kindest way, possible said he wouldn't take part. I'm not quoting him, but he was okay with me, relaying his thoughts from the notes I took while respo- his reason for not wanting to be part of the podcast was simple and left me wondering why I was doing this episode at all. Awesome. Has made it a rule of his not to talk about the quote unquote twenty-seven club. He believes this concept has somehow made it seem like it's cool to be an artist and diet twenty-seven. When in reality, it's obviously horrific. Any reference to the club, even if well, intentioned will further the romanticizing of this fake club that is simply put tragic. I'm not kidding that when he told me this, I was kind of angry myself. I felt terrible. If you do is simple. Google search of the twenty seven club, you'll get photos that don't show the reality of each musician's death at twenty-seven. Instead, you see cartoons. Or paintings of the six musicians hanging out in heaven or talking over a card game or seated as if that the last supper you see photos of them like they're in the Brady bunch smiling smoking or playing music being part of a club incensio celebration. Exactly. Like how I started this episode, she'll music the group hanging out focused on artwork. I now really was part of the problem. I thought of forgetting about this episode and doing something else. I want to take a quick break to thank one of our great partners who really make this podcast possible as many of you know, I spend most of my time working. I don't really like to do much else reading writing recording. Repeat. So what happens when this is the case, you don't really get furniture. I lived two years. This is true. I live two years in an apartment once with only a mattress. No fridge, no rug. No girlfriend anyway, my current place. Well, something wildly unexpected happened now. There's no girlfriend, but I got in touch with the folks at article article has beautifully designed modern furniture and that Scandinavian simplicity, which I happen to be a fan of. I got this new suite high table desk, not too much just tasteful and it's all online. No showrooms, no sales people just savings. An article is offering our listeners fifty dollars off their first. Purchase of one hundred dollars or more to claim visit article dot com. Slash w. r. h. as in what really happened, that's all it takes to article dot com slash w. r. h. and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. That's article dot com. Slash w. r. h. to get fifty dollars off your first purchase of one hundred dollars or more. I thought of forgetting about this episode and doing something else, but I I wanted to spend a bit more time going through my research. I came across the work of Diana Theodora Kenny. Dr. Kenny has a degree in pretty much everything. She's primarily a psychologist and researcher as well as professor at the university of Sydney. Dr. Kenny is the author of over two hundred publications including seven books. She was curious about this twenty-seven club and did her own study with a few colleagues. Dr Kenny used over two hundred sources and studied over eleven thousand pop musicians from nineteen fifty to twenty fourteen her findings. Well, if anything, perhaps there should be a fifty six club. Eddie rabbit, Tammy Wynette Mimi Farina, Johnny Ramone Chris Ledoux van smokey Hampton and Charles baby Tate. All died at fifty six in terms of that twenty. Seven year old bump according to Dr Kenny study. One point two percent of the over eleven thousand musicians in her study died at twenty six years old. One point four percent died at twenty eight. And one point three percent died at twenty seven. So again, one point, two percent at twenty six years old. One point, four percent at twenty eight years old. And one point, three percent at twenty seven years old different studies on this have had different outcomes. But I do believe that the more focused and the more precise the study, the results are the twenty-seven isn't really all that different. Even Howard soons would go onto explain the limits of his own study so opposed to moving forward. I took another step back and looked at the years. The main six had died, Brian Jones, Jimi Hendrix, Janice Joplin, and Jim Morrison, all died between nineteen sixty nine and nineteen seventy-one. That's four of these six. Members dying over the course of two years. In fact, Hendrix Joplin died within two weeks of each other. So what was happening during that time period? Singers, like Frank Sinatra and Tom Jones were at the peak of their careers during the nineteen sixties and sold millions of records. It was the second half of the decade which saw the emergence of rock music, including psychedelic rock. Michael Hicks, author of sixties rock garage psychedelic, and other satisfactions defines the John Jonah as one which excavates and enhances the mind, altering experiences of psychedelic drugs. Most notably LSD. This music was personal and introspective for one of the first times in pop culture history, the masses were talking about suffering and pain. Musicians were exploring their subconscious more and using drugs to do so us editions and record company saw that the. Doug culture sold people, particularly young people, loved it. It was celebrated. There was the human being during the winter of sixty seven and that summer was the summer of love and all reached historic heights during the nineteen sixty nine Woodstock festival. With that in mind, it's not so hard to believe that during this time four of the most famous rock and roll musicians died in their late twenties while enormously popular. It wasn't until twenty years later that his concept of a twenty-seven club came up. Again. This was in one thousand nine hundred four when Cobain committed suicide Kurt had a history of mental health issues and so does family he had attempted suicide before turning twenty-seven. It seems to me it was a convenient and easy way to put him a unique and brilliant artist into this twenty-seven club. This constructed group. Of course, the term found itself again on the headlines of papers. Around the world when Amy wine-house died about fifteen years later, what is perhaps less exciting to talk about an examine is why musicians and artists are dying at this relatively young age. And if there's anything to be done as it turns out I've learned there is research that shows how our perception of the late twenties is misunderstood or at least was misunderstood by me until the last eighteen months. While I thought of a twenty seven year old as a fully formed adult research shows. Otherwise with the help of Heather Sherman, I reached out to Dr Robert McIntyre, a professor of psychiatry and pharmacology at the university of Toronto and head of the mood disorders psychopharmacology unit at the University Health network. The old notion that we had in neuro science or brain science for a long time was that, you know, after you go through your adolescence in reach early adulthood, the brain have. There's the brain that you're stuck with and we've moved away from that very outdated anachronistic notion to a more comprehensive, coherent Egmore scientific. The informed notion that the brain really is this plastic mutable, changeable organism Dr McIntyre added, but even your mid twenties, for example, early thirties, there's still the capacity to generate from early progenitor or early sort of undifferentiated cells brain cells. These brain cells are not just sort of a hearing, but they're also a functioning. So these are new mature adult brain cells that have a functional relevance to people. When it comes to drugs, we'd has a bigger effect on our minds than previously thought. We know the cannabis exposure, specifically THC gnawing in developing brain can be highly toxic, can induce psychosis in those who I've risk. But typically in the. A younger brain that is people under the age of twenty five still on the age of twenty. What Dr Kenny did find in our research was that pop artists lifespans were up to twenty five years shorter than the average American accidental death rates were between five and ten times greater suicide rates were between two and seven times greater and homicide rates were up to eight times greater than the US population after publishing her study, Dr Kenny concluded. This is clear evidence that all is not well in pop music land. Why is the so the pop music scene fails to provide boundaries and to model and expect acceptable behavior? It actually does the reverse. It valorize is outrageous behavior and the acting out of aggressive, sexual and destructive impulses. The most of a stair only live out in fantasy the music industry needs to consider these findings to discover ways of recognizing and assisting young musicians. Distress at the very least those who make their livings from these young people need to learn to recognize early signs of emotional distress, crisis, depression, and suicide -ality, and to put some support systems in place to provide the necessary assistance and care in regards to Jimmy's death in those around him, Charles r cross said he didn't have a one person kinda checking up on him in the end. Both Jimmy's managers are dead. Now, you know there's no, you know, really way to say it other than to some degree to me, death ends up being the responsibility of his managers. I think that ultimately ends up being a lot of the story of rock history. Many times these stars are using drugs. The managers are well aware of it and Jimmy case in all likelihood, one of his managers, Michael Jeffries was probably supplying drugs to Jimmy at times that gave him a level of control. Jim. Death. In some ways we blame on the manager. If you're a rock manager, the worst thing you can do is let your client die. And sadly, that ends up being the case in more than a few of these rock. Lots ultimately, I've discovered that there isn't any club. What you do have is six artists who were faced with a great deal of success and turmoil in a very short period of time. They also faced fame drug and alcohol addiction money, or at least people with money, a lack of foundational support the trappings that can come with being an artist and all of this. Well, their brains were still forming. When you look at this infamous club, four of these main members died over the course of only two years during a time period in which drugs were rampant and largely celebrated. Unlike us of who directed the documentary on Amy wine house. I clearly opted to talk about the twenty seven club. I don't think there is the right approach. There's a larger debate to be had about whether or not addressing this club helps or hurt the cause of addressing the larger problem. It only takes a very quick search to see that Rolling Stone magazine BBC the Washington Post and endless other respectable news outlets to fairly obscure blogs have written at length about this term and its members without also mentioning the terms flaws, oftentimes getting lost in some sort of romanticised recounting of those who've passed for now. I don't think there are enough voices pointing out why this term is in fact, offensive and has nothing to do with a PC culture. It has to do with facts, not adding up and being sensitive. When we talk about mental health issues and alcohol IX or drug addicts, would I think would be a step in the right direction is to bring attention to this because to this day. When you hear about a public figure who dies at twenty seven years old, you'll read headlines that they are joining a club, but that is not what really happened. Next week on what really happened. The nine hundred ninety four. The president of Russia Boris Yeltsin was discovered by the secret service in Washington DC on Pennsylvania Avenue. He was extremely drunk wearing only underwear yelling for CAD and demanding pizza. President Clinton would do his best to help his friend President Yeltsin with his drinking problems. But in the decades since the American and Russian relationship has taken severe turns that's next week on what really happened. Don't forget go to jinx pod dot com to give me feedback or jinx pod dot com. Slash contributors to become a part of the team. I'm on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram at Andrew Jenks.

Jim Morrison Jimi Hendrix Kirk Cobain Jimmy Brian Jones Hendrix Joplin Amy wine house Joplin Amy Diana Theodora Kenny Kurt Howard soons w. r. h. Charles r US Bill Wyman Twitter heroin Kurt Cobain
ENCORE: The 2020 Political Landscape with Doug Sosnik

Words Matter

50:53 min | 4 months ago

ENCORE: The 2020 Political Landscape with Doug Sosnik

"Welcome to words matter with Katie. Barlow and Joe Lockhart welcome to words matter. I'm Katie Barlow. Our goal is to promote objective reality as a wise man once said everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Not Their own facts. Words have power and words have consequences. Our guest today is a bestselling author and has advised. Presidents Senators Governors Fortune one hundred corporations and universities for thirty five years. Doug Sosnik served as an advisor to President Clinton for six years as senior adviser for policy and Strategy White House Political Director and deputy legislative director. He's the CO author of New York Times Bestseller APPLEBEE'S AMERICA. How successful political business and religious leaders connect with the new American community? Doug Sosnik welcome to words matter great revenue so Doug I always like to share with people beforehand whether the guest is a friend or just someone. Who's an expert? So it's Wayne's why with my friends which you are one why I can be so mean to you for the next forty five minutes. Great one thing to the intro and it was one of those great moments of working together in the White House Where Doug was introduced to Boris Yeltsin and Bill Clinton said to President Yeltsin. This is this is Doug Sosnik. He's the finest political mind in the world and I was a few feet away and then the president introduced me and the president kind of paused and said this is the guy who swain's all the dumb things I do in the world. I'm behind the elephants trouser. We go. It is true that Doug has a better sense of what's going on in the country that people who sit on twitter and on typically it like I do on television. She would actually Share with more. But we're lucky to have you here today. Let's talk at thirty five thousand feet about the election. A lot of people talk about this as a turn out election and the Democrats being energized and the energy on the democratic side being what will save the Party My guess is you've got a slightly different view. Their turnout talk about that a little bit. Well I think first of all we should probably expect to have the highest turnout in history. We had the highest turnout in two thousand eighteen for a midterm and over one hundred years and say what you want about Donald Trump. He's done more to create more energy and civic engagement than any politician in our lifetime. So I think we probably will have the highest out in history. Do Remember though that In the last election Hundred million people did not vote so even with a higher turnout. There's a large percentage of people almost forty percent our country who are eligible to those who don't vote and so back to your question Joe. I think that it's a false choice between either. It's a turnout election or swing voter. Election fact is I think it's both neither party or neither candidate of the of either party get reelected without at energized base to turn out But I think that while it's small I think the swing voters in the WHO handful of States. That are decide the next president. If it's a close election I'll begin get elected Without getting swing voters and I think Hillary Clinton proved that in two thousand sixteen When trump was able to get a large percentage of the swing voters Many of those seventeen percent of the people on Election Day who disliked both candidates Trump carry those voters overwhelmingly. So what are swing voters? Who ARE THEY. Where are they? And what moves them laws? You've probably heard or read that we have moved into the world of called tribal politics where people are either believe tribe or a red tribe or purple tribe. We're really going through a once in a lifetime are certainly more than once a generation a political transformation in our countries of the alignment of people. Really going back. Probably since the beginning late sixties early seventies were defined what it meant to be a democrat. And what the fine meant to be. A Republican lasted for almost half a century in our country. I think you began to say. And you saw in. Two hundred six districts In Two thousand sixteen in two hundred six districts there those are district's Obama in eight Obama in twelve in trump in sixteen in so many ways the political transformation in our country. Right now Is is much more Geared around you know four things about a person you have a pretty good idea which tribe. They're in their age their race their gender in particular education. And so we're resorting who we are. As Americans based on those factors and we're increasingly segregating our lives obviously in terms of news consumption but also in terms of worry live where people are increasingly choosing the love around people of their own tribe. And so we're going to political transformation in which the parties are being redefined. A Republicans now are much more. Working Class Party. Obviously disproportionately white voters older voters less educated voters and the Democratic Party is the line by nine whites. I. Percentage of female voters high educated voters. So that were resorting ourselves. Politically an age of transformation from a Twentieth Century Industrial Top-down Society to a twenty first century global and digital world. Conventional Wisdom says that that voters like change candidates and those two hundred and six counties. Where in Oh eight and twelve? They went to Obama and in sixteen they went to trump. Those were all platforms of change. Different ways to get to that change. How much does that factor into those four categories where we know what tribe people are in? And how much is that of? That is just the typical voter going after the change candidate. Well we'll the country necessarily prefer change and in fact for most of our recent American politics would not opted for change. Had Reagan Clinton and Bush. All three two term presidents. But we're going through a period of instability in our world in our country that's created a desire for people for change and they're dissatisfied with whoever's in power regards which political party they are and so six last seven elections on the voters voted for change so six last seven elections. They voted against what they voted for the previous two years right and so they're not really right now is much voting for somebody is fighting against whoever's in power are there reservoirs on both the democratic and the Republican side of people who haven't participated and is that the most important thing that trump can do to mind those new voters or whoever the Democratic nominee as. Well I think the trump strategy is clear first of all. They're not running a fifty state reelect strategy. They're running a probably a five state strategy and there's other focused on and they were quite clear they didn't a briefing about a month ago. There are eight point. Nine million people and in Pennsylvania Michigan and Wisconsin eight point nine people who like trump and did not vote in two thousand eighteen. And so they're making them my top priority and and what basically they have a digital operation that's masquerading as a campaign in their managers at digital guy and and they've been quite clear in their digital strategy that in these those restates their particularly focused in these smaller rural areas smaller counties. That normally aren't part of the political traffic of a presidential race so twenty. Two percent of the people who vote In Pennsylvania are in these under served counties in twenty percent Wisconsin so for the trump campaign. It's vice state. Six eight strategy It's all based on getting their vote out. Whether these people voted in the past are would support them If they voted is very interesting. And if you saw this week good the night. The knightfoundation foundation put out a report called one hundred million voters. And there were a hundred million voters who didn't vote in two thousand sixteen so they went in they did twelve thousand survey twelve thousand people and these are people who are either registered. Didn't vote more than once in the last six elections or are not registered but could vote and so they went into twelve. I think ten target states and try to figure out who these people are. And what you found out In in Florida Pennsylvania and Arizona in particular that contrary to conventional wisdom can those states in particular of the non voters are more much more sympathetic trump and so most people think the higher the turn out the better it is for Democrats and that is true and blue states but in the states regular side at close election it's not necessarily the case and so trump entire strategy is of is a five six eight? Max reelect campaign and it's all geared to people who if they vote will support trump and can you discern a democratic strategy to counter that. Well I think in part I mean and this is what depends on the candidate who's running Bernie Sanders Francis will take his entire strategies based on motivating people who who support what he believes in and getting them to vote And they made the difference. They could have made a difference in two thousand sixteen. You look back. It seems counterintuitive got Twelve percent of the Sanders voters in twenty. Six Team voted for trump in the general. And there's another eight percent that either didn't vote of a third party and so odd seems counterintuitive that you move for Obama and trump. But it's the same thing that you saw a bunch of Ron Paul voters twelve in the primary but for Obama in the general so in this new world of politics I Hillary Clinton and Romney are closer together in the minds of voters and there when I wrote a piece about eight years ago. Coach barricades are you are? Which is I? Think the defining element of this political transformation and so the Romney's of the world the Hillary Clinton's were on a perceived to be on one side of the barricades and the trump's in the sanders on the other side of the barricades and so this new delineation between which side of the barricades. Yawn is not based on. What political party. You're from its war on whether you're part of the status quo whether you're part of the side for Change. I would be curious. How many of those hundred million voter non voters are chosen? Non Voters those who have access to vote and choose. Not to versus disenfranchised voters felons who no longer have the ability to individuals who who have been purged from voting rolls or have lost access to their polling or ability to register based on the Supreme Court's decision to gut section via the voting rights. Act because it's chosen non voters that squares to me if it's those that have less access to vote or the ability at all. I wonder if that would skew those statistics. Well I don't know but my guess is both but I believe is the vast majority of chosen chosen voters so I want to switch gears. A little bit because The last week we saw some back and forth between president trump and former president obama talking about the economy. President Obama Tweeted out something. On the day that he eleven years ago signed the Recovery Act talking about getting out of the worst economic crisis in history and president trump of course wanted to claim his own victory and his ability to fix all of the economic issues. So how much of today's economy is the center of trump support going into twenty and twenty? How much of his his support and elect is about the economy. Well my overall frame of how you look at the election is pretty simple there. Route thirty percent of the trump voters that are for trump no matter what then another fifteen percent roughly that don't like trump but like his policies and so for that second bucket of voters don't like his job approval on the on the economies around twelve points higher than his job approval president so for that second group of voters. The economy is is hugely important because they're voting for trump in spite of the fact they dislike trump and. I know we're going to get to this later but if you figure out how does trump into the math between thirty plus fifteen in a two person race and get to fifty and the answer is his opponent and getting that last mile that last five percent in this case is adds even say don't like trump to vote for him Instead of some extent for that last mile it's going to be running the devil you know versus the devil that you don't know so. I don't think trump can get reelected because the economy but if the economy had gone in the tank then there's no way in the world he can get reelected but I think overall the economy is a is a obviously a net positive for trump and when when when lasting mention is if you look back to president relax the third and fourth quarter of year three and quarter one quarter two year four year period it by the end of the second quarter this year the the cake is largely baked APP to absent some unexpected event in terms of what the voters are going to be feeling like in September when they start voting. It's gotta be I mean we're we're we're almost there. It's got to be pretty. Well Baked for trump going into the election. So how front of mind is that. To the five percent of voters those undecided voters are those non voters is economy. Yeah well I think it'll be very decisive. The into challenges that the political wealth for the political world is GONNA wind challenge at no one's ever figured out and then for the democratic world is a second challenge. They haven't viewed up for the broader political world from moment trump wrote down that escalator at announced his candidacy for president with crowd that he paid for nobody. Whether it's the Republican primary the general election in two thousand sixteen for the last three years. No one has figured out the best argument and best case to make against trump and so he still. No one has figured that out the second piece which is about the economy is. I don't think the Democrats have figured out a way in the context of relative economic prosperity. How you make an economic case against Trump Park Joe? I know you're busy and don't have time to read or in some cases. Reread all the books. You'd like and you just discovered an incredible new APP and it's called Blink first year. Katie blink is just quickly. Becoming one of the most important APPs on my phone book is really unique. And it works on your phone. Your tablet or your web browser blankets takes need to know information the key takeaways from thousands of nonfiction books and condenses them down into just fifteen minutes that you can read or listen to if you read a lot but still. Don't get to have time to get to everything you want. Lincoln's says made for you. You'll get the key points of a book in just minutes. So with its audio feature blinking makes it easy to finish a book during your commute or on your lunch break or while you're exercising and twelve million people are using blink cast right now and it has a massive and growing library from politics to current events to history books and even topics like business and health. Blink has the latest titles from bestsellers lists as well as the classic nonfiction titles. You always meant to read but never had time to or where supposed to read in high school. I know you just started using it Joe. But you've had a great experience so far. It sounds like yeah. I was writing a column for CNN. And I was talking about a book. I'd read several years ago and I frankly didn't have time to reread it so I just went to blankets and in fifteen minutes. Had all the key takeaways. So from Michelle Obama's becoming to Russian Roulette Michael isikoff and David Corn to rick. Wilson's everything trump touches dies with blinking. You get unlimited access to read or listen to a massive library of condensed nonfiction books all the books you want and all for one low price and right now for a limited time blink as a special offer just for our audience go to blancas dot com slash words matter try it free for seven days and save twenty five percent off your new subscription. That's blinking spelled B. L. I. N. K. I S. T. BLINK EST dot com slash words matter to start your free seven-day trial and you'll also get twenty five percent off. But only when you sign up at blinking dot com slash words matter. I want to ask your thoughts on this. And Joe's thoughts on this too in and we'll get to the Democratic primary. That's going on right now but while we're talking about the economy last week in Nevada. We saw the debate among the primary contenders in the Democratic Party. And we saw you know kind of a squarely socialist side the people with Bernie. We saw you know. Strong capitalists with Bloomberg and then we saw people like Warren who I think still having a hard time articulating how she squaring her views and her affection for capitalism But also its woes that come along with it and and dealing with her supporters that also align themselves with with Bernie and with socialism. What do you make of those three approaches? And do you think any rise? As as the best option give well to be clear well relatively speaking sanders and warns support. Be In the same time zone. The really quite different yet and reasonably large pool of warned voters. If she were to fall out aren't going to go to sanders. They're going to go to some of the other candidates and I think that If you look at most recent Wall Street Journal poll There's simply not broad support for socialism in America. If you look at Harvard's done symposium millennials around the country if you look at any subsets of national polls younger. People millennials thirty and under do have a higher level support for socialism and other groups largely because they've grown up in a world in which capitalism is screwed them in their family. Yeah they skin in the game but the broad. The broad brush of America Does Not Support Socialism. We have had and Joe and I were in the Clinton administration were part of this relative to the rest of the world. Certainly say Europe Americas had since Reagan lack of a better term. Almost wild west. We've had capitalism in its Ross Forum at any guardrails and if you look in Europe and other parts of the world whether it's certainly capitalist systems there's there more limits on it and so. I think that we'RE WE'RE WARREN. Has has been moving is to try to stay where she has been generally speaking in terms of left of center on economic matters and certainly for more redistribution progressive tax policies. But she's trying she's been trying to trim or says that to be more acceptable to a broader group of people. I think that's part of as particularly starting around healthcare when she's changed her policies. Release the transition period. You know there was always a notion that despite the fact they have different bases that either warrant or sanders was gonNA emerge from the left of center and I think her support started willing away on the left as she started having more nuanced views on on economic matters but she is clearly trying to fill the moderate more moderate ish space last week more moderate space than going after Sanders. And so. I think that's where the center of the part. The party's centers is sort of that. Almost raw socialism of sanders are are the more capitalism with guardrails that warns trying to represent one of the things that we've talked about in the last couple of months is how warned centers on the far left of the party. Divide and I'm interested in your analysis of this. I've talked a little bit about how working class voters tend to be looking at sanders but not worn but looking at Biden and some others and the more highly educated are not looking at senators. They're looking at Warren. But she's competing with Buddha Dash and Amy Klobuchar for those. How Democrats sort this out and we can bleed right into talking about the democratic nominees here. Because I think we're we're kind of going there anyway. And but to create this message to bring income inequality the wife to to to take grievance politics and turn it on its head and saying the top one percent the stuff that Elizabeth. Warren has talked about and talks about quite eloquently but doesn't seem to be landing anyplace well we'll have to say. She certainly shed a little more energy recently. But I think you mentioned something. A miniature that alluded to earlier legit has age race gender and education. Those are the drivers in American. Politics and education has become so much more delineated in the last decade or so absolutely and that's where you look at. Bush suburban Republicans who don't have a home right now And I've had a number of My Republican friends say may a lot of kind of Bush era Republicans will say hey trump. I don't WanNa move for trump if you nominate sanders you nominate worn for trump and so the trick for the Democrats is the the the trick overall as. Where's the balance between? How do you redistribute money? And the spoils of society while at the same time not draining people's edition to get ahead and do well and so a lot of voters would think that sanders is way too interested in redistribution of of money And making it punitive for other people And that's where sanders are A. I is trying to find a bit more of them. That'll but the truth is I don't think you can get the math to add up if you're just doing. Massive redistribution programs and just going after a limited number of Hiwa income individuals and corporations to pay for all that the size and scope of their social programs. So let's jump into the candidates. How do you handicap those still in the race? Everyone from the people who've been in from the beginning You Know Biden Warren. Kobe Char booted judge Sanders. And then Michael Bloomberg who has been making a big splash. He spent a half a billion dollars which I mean for those who don't file campaign spending. It's just unprecedented. And potentially very disruptive potentially a huge waste of money. I mean we don't we don't know but handicap the field a little bit and the challenges of getting the nomination versus the challenges of winning the presidency. So let me put hopefully quickly at some context to this and you go back to Twenty Sixteen about twenty seven people that announcer running for president. If you ask me before the campaign started who was the least relevant person running for president it was second least relevant output Bernie Sanders is number twenty six and trump at twenty seven and your handicapping yourself or anti Catholic but the fact was those two people drove Sanderson you become the nominee but those people drove the political debate in two thousand sixteen. They dominated that the campaign in both primaries was dominated by these two people and then the general election so to get to the field. Right now you have to have some context of how he got there so sanders has has stayed where he was in terms of what he was running for. He's got about the same vote share now. People support him as he did before you had you have to look at. I think impeachment coming on top of this field on top of the race for six months. It really froze the race. People didn't really engage in a race. Your high percentage of undecided voters. I THINK SANDERS IN WARREN. Drove the debate in two thousand nineteen and drove the Democratic Party towards their positions on the left. And so what's happened now is as we move into the actual voting and the the specter hanging over them of impeachment is now gone. People are getting much more real about. Where are they in? So you've got this block of Sanders. Supporters that may be a high floor and a low ceiling But it it is what it is and it's probably around thirty percent that has been marinating in the political system now for three four years and it sitting there. And then you've got these other candidates who are trying to create a lane in space for themselves. If you over-simplified it's mostly nuanced center left politics but none of them have the personality that background the ability to articulate a vision for where they want to lead the country. And so you've what you've got is very flat electorate right now. That's having a hard time fallen in love with any of these candidates. We saw all of the candidates together for the first time including the newcomer Mike Bloomberg in Nevada last week. And I wanted to ask you what you thought of Bloomberg's performance in the debate and if it matters well he clearly did not have a great debate and you know one thing about running for president is you get better at it or you get gone and so yet five people surviving the rigors of a two year campaign who really have real muscle tone and have been at this a long time. Bloomberg hasn't been debate. Probably it almost a decade and hasn't really been out mixing it up for quite some time. He clearly showed the rust and he was in some ways guest to a party. That's not only been going on for a long time. But who he has where he came from is the outsider and so. I don't think it killed his candidacy. But it certainly hurt. For first impression. There are a lot of people who were lined up to go to Bloomberg expectations that the other center in Afghanistan's we're going to be imploding. And I think that probably put a pretty significant chill. But you know you've got a freight train going right now that you saw in two thousand sixteen with with trump where yes trump had thirty thirty five percent of the vote that means the two out of three people. Don't like trump but you had in sixteen you had Rubio and Christie and crews and all these guys that were hanging around and all splitting up the anti-trump vote and by the time they sort it tried to sort it all out. It was too late and trump had a head of steam. And so it's that's what the fear is for people who don't support Bernie Sanders that he's in the process now in California coming up and people invited in California out for already ten days that he will as this ant non sanders vote remains spread out and Bloomberg's inability to really have a strong debate performance Hard for him to the center central. Vote the longer. It's spread out diffuse in terms of support levels the better. It is for Sanders. I WanNa talk about two of the areas. You mentioned of the four that determine our tribe you the four our age education gender and race gender and race are too big problems for Blooberg and none of the candidates are perfect on both although some are better than others both. How important are those two factors going to be on voting day? Well I mean when you look at a Primary it's different than a general election. Yeah both so that a primary I would say gender and race for the Democrats disproportionately important. It's certainly true for a Democratic nominee in general action. But if you look at it I think it's around. Forty percent of some of the pro Democratic primaries African Americans it's a hugely significant factor in Democratic primary and you look at Sanders support which skews younger and so he's got a real leg up and if you look at You know it's one of those misconceptions in politics. You know. We talk about Hispanic voters well acumen in Florida's different than a Cuban New Jersey Puerto Rican in New York it's different than than Mexican. That's different than English. Speaking household versus spanish-speaking House overs is first generation versus fourth generation versus young versus old so many layers but if you look at on the non white voters they skew younger and younger voters in general and this applies to minority is well they think different than the older than their older siblings or parents. And they're much more gettable For Anti Establishment candidates. There they they think all institutions have failed. And that's all they've seen since I grew up and they would include. The political parties is two more failed institutions so the question of course that primary and general but is how much you can motivate young people to actually turn out and sanders proves pretty adapted that in Iowa state actually had a pretty low turnout this past year and I think in Nevada skews younger and and I think they're going have a very high turn out so I think it's extremely important in the primary and it's very true in the general. It's hard for me to see how a Democrat wants to General without picking up suburban higher educated formerly Republican women. Yeah let's talk about the freight train for a second by Saint Patrick's day we're going to know the majority of delegates pledged. How fast that train running can it be stopped and if it can be by whom and how? Well I think the the the date I uses the benchmark of the fork in the road for the Democratic Party's March seventeenth on the evening of March seventeenth. We all have had almost seventy percent of the delegates selected obviously gets forty two percent whenever Super Tuesday so the evening of March seventeenth three. They're on the road to a nominee or on the road to a brokerage convention and democratic. Party is probably most of your listeners. Know has no super delegates on the first ballot. No winner take all states so when you start grinding out. And what is the equivalent of a World War? One STYLE BATTLE. Where it's just one hell at a time when delegates at a time once you get a lead. It's hard for anyone to catch up and so in terms of getting to Milwaukee. The question last last week that todd asked about you know we support the nominee if they don't have enough delegates to get the endorsement of the convention even if short so. I think the thing to watch is because most nominees will come to the convention a little short. But it's just a formality. But you need nineteen hundred. I think in ninety one delegates to become the Democratic nominee if sanders comes there with eighteen hundred twenty. That's a different conversation than if he comes there with fourteen hundred thirty in so I think it's really gonNA matter if he is in fact leading delegate candidate with the most number of delegates. It's really going to matter. How close to the tape and turns away as denied the nomination and so if sanders continues to strength swimming the democratic other candidates in the field many of them stay in so that the non sanders road is divided up. Ultimately the trick for the Democratic Party is going to be if you believe that sanders can't be trump and in fact that sanders could cause the Democrats lose the House and certainly not take the Senate. The question will be. How do you deny sanders the nomination without alienating his voters who sanders nine Democrat Sanders went all the way to in two thousand sixteen to the Convention without point out? So the limit is on the one hand. How do you deny him the nomination Still have his people come along in November versus Hattie. If you feel. He's to cost the party. The cycle had his stop them. And so how do you thread that needle of denying them the nomination without losing his supporters and the further the closer he s having the necessary delegates semi short the closer he has to that night? Ninety-one delegate tall. I think the harder it is for the party denied the nomination. So if you're the campaign manager for Generic Democrat Establishment Democrat whether that be a candidate or the proponents of the status quo. How do you go after Sanders over the next two months? Well I think you saw last week in Nevada. Most of the candidates only one after sanders if he was a foil toward something else now. They're running against their other. Moderate compadres makes trust in repairing the breach. And cutting a deal. Much more difficult every day and so I think they're at zero sum game right now not against sanders but with the rest of the field. Which makes it really impossible to kind of figure saying out. You saw it as I mentioned earlier in Twenty Sixteen where the only thing. Republicans can agree on is that trump would run the party into the ground and they can't be denied nation but their own personal ambitions and personal animosities in all made it impossible for them to stop as you call it the freight train before it got so much speed. You can't stop it. I thought the Best Punch landed on Bernie last week in the debate An- and it came from someone who had many punches landed on him was from Bloomberg when he pointed out that your criticisms come from a millionaire with three houses and he actually got Bernie to list out his three houses. Which I I'm not in politics democratic politics but I suspect that that listing out will be in an attitude between now and November. But is that the best way to go after Bernie? Well it depends on the context of you're talking about a Democratic primary care. Now I don't think that's the best way to go after Bernie because anybody's Bernie whose relief for Bernie like the same thirty percents that really for trump intellectual argument. You're going to have about them. They're in love but yes and I think though that that what what I think Clinton did a really good job of and I think Obama did really good job. Lows is voters have to really have two things they feel one is that you actually have a vision for. We're going to lead the country that you can make their life better that you believe the words come in your mouth your authentic and that you can take on and be trump and really have to do both and they clearly every poll. Shay at that. Democrats are obsessed with beating trump in terms of what they're looking for in a candidate but they're looking for someone who they feel like is up to the job and actually articulate a vision for the future like trump don't like trump. He's got a clear vision of where he wants to leave the country. He is the same words and language when Iran since he took office and it's the same thing with sanders. What you really disagree with them. They have a point of view. They have a philosophy. They can articulate it and people who support them. Think that they're saying it because they believe it. Not just because they're saying I think the Democratic candidates who hasn't mentioned earlier had been fighting an environment which no one was paying attention to them because between trump dominate. The news cycle impeachment They really didn't get an opportunity but when they have had an opportunity to use your analogy a few minutes ago no one's Kinda fallen in love with them because they're not really articulating a vision for future. You mentioned the the House and the Senate in the previous question and I actually went to ask about that too. What are the chances that Democrats With whoever's at the top of their ticket are able to keep the house and flip the Senate in terms of the Senate is going to take a big democratic year. It's a bad map for the Democrats. Assume that Democrats can't take the Senate without taking the White House. Assuming they take the White House that means they have to come away the net of three Senate pickups from the Republicans they hold the seat in Alabama the Joan C which is an accidental pickup. So Democrats probably lose that so we can do the math of how the Democrats take the Senate It's going to take a pickup before Republican seats and you can argue there. Three that are within reach Arizona Colorado and Maine but in order to give that fourth seat Have to be a north. Carolina could be a cans. This could be a Georgia to be Iowa but those are states that are only gonNa vote for Democrat for the Senate if it's a big democratic year now in the House. It's quite a different matter. It's thirty one seats at the is the margin I think. Democrats are well positioned to hold the house under anything other than a Republican landslide did to the nature that an is taking a step back for a minute because Democrats who went through still post traumatic stress from sixteen but the fact is since Donald Trump has been elected president. He has been poisoned for the Republican Party. They've lost ten governorships forty house seats. Ten states have gone all Balu. Four hundred thirty five state. Legislative seats seats flipped the Democrats in so the Republican Party is becoming poison and a lot of suburban Republican leaning districts. And you see. Democrats picked up house seats in south in eighteen in South Carolina. Oklahoma Kansas Georgia and so part of the formula of what trump is doing to win reelection. Which is to appeal to those swing? Voters and a handful of states is what's turning off so many Republicans in these congressional districts and over forty percent of the people right now in the Republican House Forty percent of people who are in the house when trump took office or gone. And so what's happened is if the trump vacation in the Republican party and so who's left as Republicans were Trumpian and they run poorly in house swing districts and so the only chance that Republicans have to overcome that bias would be to have some Democrats worst fear of a you know trump Ryan against a very democrat in the presidential and it brings down the party so so. We don't make the mistake that I think. Democrats have made in almost every debate. And not focus on you. You've alluded to impeachment a couple times as freezing the race. And I completely agree with that. We've talked about that a little bit here. How does it factor in the corruption within the just sort of pervasive corruption? The we don't know what he's going to do next and that he's enriching himself. And he's pardoning these people in all of this stuff how does that play into swing voters. How FERTILE IS THAT FOR DEMOCRATS? And how do they make that case and it goes a little bit too. Democrats haven't figured out how to make the case. Is that where they should focus? Where should they focus on healthcare and preexisting conditions? Let's turn it on its side for the engendering greater feeling in this country that everyone's corrupt every system every structure institution is corrupt. The coarsening of our society is central trump strategy to get reelected. It's an overt strategy for him. In the sense I would call it the burn. The house down the same it so the more people come away feeling that everyone's on the take everything is corrupt. Nothing's on the lovely can't trust anything you read. Everybody's gotTa Win that feeds into his narrative about taking on the system and fighting the man so to speak in terms of Democrats. I think they're going to give people reason to vote for him and the corruption that all the stuff about trump that makes democrats froth at the mouth. It's all built in to the stock. Everyone knows all that so the question is so being. Even more corrupt isn't any healthcare. Was the single most important issue. Twenty eighteen and healthcare is an issue on health but healthcare is an issue on the economy. And so I think that for Democrats have to talk about issues that people care about and I. I don't how much you guys get outside the bubble but when you're out in America A whole different. We're afraid we never get out of the conversation going on now. That's not true. My Georgia routes three. I was just there this past week but anyway it's a whole different conversation out there so their lives you're now you're the speaker of the house That controls the Democratic Agenda and messaging until we have a nominee. And there's a very important months ahead. Do you veer away from oversight and focus more on healthcare prescription drugs preexisting conditions and you know bread and butter issues. Well I would do both but I would definitely want to lead much more on a daily basis with the issues that matter in people's lives in abandon the over the oversight function. I mean the stuff that we should be doing just because for history if we allow things to happen and there's not oversight and they're going to be some things that are recited we know the Democrats should make a big deal about but fundamentally I think the people in Congress needs to deal with the issues that people back home care about why they sent them to represent them. I WANNA JOE started with looking at thirty five thousand foot view and I want to zoom back out at that and talk about the Democratic Party and where we're headed politically as a country? Talk a little bit about trump as a symptom and what's going to be left in his wake. Well you know he is. A symptom of the problem didn't create the problem. And when you started as I mentioned earlier if you took Sanders is the twenty fourth. Most relevant running and trump is the twenty fifth and they ended up dominating debate their symptoms of a notion for most people that the system is broken. They have nothing to lose their for people that they want people to come in to blow it up. We've had six out of seven. The last elections were change elections I when the day after the election in November this election is not going to resolve the divisions in our country and If if trump gets reelected you're going have four years of of enormous democratic activity in the states to try to they ministration if the Democrats get elected they're GONNA be thirty percent of the trump voters who are going to continue fighting trump fight even if trump is not there so I think we're probably another five to ten years away from getting out of this trough that we're in we're going to the biggest transition since the late eighteen hundreds you know he had the last beginning of the last decade you had. We went into invaded Iraq which these stabilize unstable place in the world and you can see every day. We feel the implications of that with Syria. Blowing up still the immigrants who flooded into Europe. You had the We had an economic slowdown in our country started early nineteen seventies that hit the great tipping point with the recession of two thousand eight. The third thing was the Technology changes the IPHONE went to market in the middle of all that disruptions lost jobs in the last with demographic changes with the becoming close to majority nine majority cut so all these things happen at the same time and created what they call hinge moment in history to think about a hinge on. A door connects one piece of wood to another so. We're transitioning from one era to another and so right now. Our institutions are incapable of managing this change. So let's say our institutions where either broken corrupt and so. How do we get out of this and win? The my view is it's GonNa take another five to ten years. We're going to continue this divisions basically I think the baby boomers are going to have to exit the stage and the millennials who are the largest population in our country now in the largest voting group. They actually don't want to continue the fight. So we've had this country since the sixties since the baby boomer's emerging took over so actually. I'm pretty optimistic. That will come out of this. But I think it's GonNa take deep into this decade until at some point the country's can be so fed up with the leadership in this country start punishing elected officials for acting where they are. But I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon. Because we're going through this monumental once one hundred year transition and and we in this period of transition and he saw it in the beginning of the industrial revolution began last century. It takes twenty thirty years to be able to make a transition and remember last year. Political institutions are not the courts are elected politics. These are lagging institutions. They are the last place to get a political consensus so the country has to figure out what it wants. A have a consensus on that and at that point the elected officials will fall in line. Because if they don't they won't either get elected or get reelected and so we haven't sorted out these divisions yet and part frankly of how you sort it out is the older people who've been writing generation men Ryan is country is going sort. Start sorting sell off when they die and they're no longer in leadership in our country but but as long as they're here and dominating our leadership we're going to continue in the same fights further records dog and are willing to leave right now. Katie and let you five. Let me Let me finish with. Let's go beyond your five to ten years and I think your optimism is gives me hope but talk about the two party system whether we will cease being a two party system or if we stay in it what the parties will look like. I can make an argument now that it's untenable within the Democratic Party you have the Justice Democrats Democratic Socialists and the traditional Democrats. That will not be able to find common ground from an ideological point of view from a programmatic and I can make the same argument on the Republican side. That you've got the Trumpian tea party with the traditional suburban Republican Party that it's hard to see the common ground and then you've got overlying all. This is demographic changes in the country that will be very much reshape are do you see two thousand forty. Do you see two parties continuing. But there's a shift in some ways. Do you see three parties. You know do you see splintering. And they're being you know eight parties have how are they going to be too dominant trends over that twenty year period one is? We're going to political reform because you can't ultimately change. What were we are right now? If you're not happy with it unless you change the roles and the award systems and so eventually get political report reform on Tearing Down Probably Electoral College. So that all fifty states matter. Probably some public financing Nonpartisan reapportionment redistricting open-access on voting. So I think you're GONNA have political reform which will look in California and other places Rea- jungle primaries and all of a sudden the incentive is to reach moderate voters so we will get political reform because the country will be so fed up with the current system that they will force it and it's not one part of the other. It's both in the second thing is you know if you look at. The most current polling popular is trump is and a lot of the Republicans Democratic Parties. No more popular than republic in fact is less popular today and in a mentioned earlier about young people. Who are disproportionately right now. Democrats not because they like Democrats but because they hate trump and hate the Republicans and trump is actually going after some of the younger African American voters and young Ern Hispanic voters because they have an allegiance to no party and they they think these institutions are as failed corrupt as the other ones in our society. And so we're GONNA end up with political reform. We're GONNA have political institutions that reflect people are in their lives. And so what does that mean? Well it means you have a Conservative Party. Progressive Party. Tea Party can have Green Party. And so I think you're GONNA end up having parties that are organized around issues that people care about and not trying to fit into mid twentieth century institutions. That are no longer relevant in our lives. I think we're GONNA leave their dog that we're we're to have eight parties and there's GonNa it's GonNa look like British elections where some kind of funny suit gets up as they announced the winner. Greg and Katie. See that's right. This problem is all years Katya. Thanks for that. On behalf of all millennials. Thank you thanks Doug. That was great. Thank you thank you for listening to words matter please. Rate and review words matter on Apple. Podcasts and other podcasts providers.

Donald Trump DEMOCRATS Bernie Sanders Democratic Party president Obama Trump Park Hillary Clinton Doug Sosnik Bloomberg Sanders AMERICA Nevada Republican Party Joe Lockhart Michael Bloomberg Twenty Sixteen Bernie Sanders Francis
Black Agenda Radio - 01.14.19

Black Agenda Radio

56:21 min | 1 year ago

Black Agenda Radio - 01.14.19

"This is black agenda radio a weekly hour of African American political thought and action. Go to the radio magazine that brings you come and Terry and the NAT was this from a black left perspective. I'm Glen forward along with my co-host. Nellie bailey. Coming up marxists have been calling on workers of the world to unite for more than a century and a half. But Ken workers still changed the world? A new book says yes and supporters of mea Jamal urge Philadelphia's chief prosecutor not to stand in the way of a possible pathway to freedom. But I the Democrats seemed certain to step up their investigations of the Trump administration now that they are a majority and the US house that also likely mean more frenzy efforts to link Russia to the Trump presidential. Campaign. Steven Cohen is the nation's best known expert on Russia having studied that nation's politics and both the Soviet era. And after Russia became capitalists Coen spoke with block, the gender report executive editor Glenn Ford who remembers the tail end of anti Russian hysteria during the McCarthy era, but for ten not recall anything during the McCarthy era that was says manic loud and relentless as today's hysteria against Russia. Professor Cohen agrees to remember the end of McCarthyism, I to have never seen anything like this in my new book war with Russia with a question, Mark. I spent a good deal of time saying just that I. I also say though, this may be a bit of an exaggeration that when I lived in the Soviet Union as a scholar before Gorbachev came to power and into the censorship. That would have been in nineteen eighty five eighty six I recall vividly things like this happening in the Soviet Union. That is to say people falling under suspicion for their quote contacts with Russia for saying things that don't fit the mainstream orthodoxy. So I'm very alarmed by this and this is quite apart from my dislike for Trump. But one of the points, I making the book is at the peril of this new code war is especially grade because even when Trump does something sensible on behalf of our national security with Russia. It's called treason. So where does that leave the rest of us who devoted much of our lives to contacts with Russia? Scholarly political cultural and who think that Americans need now above all. But as we did during the Cold War to reach out to all the Russians we know to bring Russians in Americans together that's now fallen under suspicion. So it's a dangerous time in you're up -solutely. Right. And we hear comments that actually have no place in civil discourse. Like, a high intelligence official Clapper talking about treachery. And dishonesty being part of the DNA of the Russell and yet, Glenn when he said that and it was widely broadcast and print it. I think he said and set it on a Sunday morning news show network news show that Russians were genetically disposed to infiltrate Americans and John Brennan, the former head of the CIA. A said exactly the same thing. There was no protest in the mainstream media. Even though it's a form of racism when you attribute some predisposition to an ethnic group disapproved up. Normally if you said it about Jews or black folks or talian or anybody there'd be an uproar. But when these two very powerful former heads of our primary intelligence agencies made these remarks about Russian Russians passed almost unnoticed like treated in the book. I was shocked that there was no protest, but something's happened here. It's a combination. I think though, I can't fully explain it of intense dislike for Russia's leaders since two thousand deamer Putin and this intense loathing for Trump, and it's created a toxic city. That's generated as you say new McCarthyism. They're also doing things now such. Just keeping people with dissenting views off radio and television programs where once they were were welcomed. So this is kind of censorship unfolding, and this is a side from the federal prosecutions that are going on. I mean, I personally don't think the Muller investigation should've ever been established. But what we have at the moment or budget convictions, and please involving financial corruption that have nothing to do with Russia at all. So it's spreading as it did under McCarthy and in less the people who used to fight McCarthyism, bats liberals, and progressives stand up and say stop, I don't see where it's going to end. Outfit in Saint Petersburg that the Mueller folks in Dighton for meddling of some kind in US politics doesn't look to me like a professional intelligence operation at all. What about you? Well, let's context there's a bit so people, and I've been widely denounced for protesting this Russia gate stuff say well Cohen, don't you think the Russians meddled in the two thousand sixteen presidential elections. And I said sure they did. And so what because the United States has been meddling in Russian politics. It's the Russian revolution. People forget we intervened in their civil war. My uncle actually was sent to Russia. I remember him telling me vividly the stories we virtually got President Yeltsin of Russia re elected in nineteen ninety six. Everybody knows that story, but we medal and they meddle in. Our elections. The old communist party was busy here. And nobody thought much about it. It's just something the two countries have done forever. And the only difference in two sixteen with the advent of social media. So people who have looked at this social media. And remember that this began as saying the Russians had meddled? Okay. But now they're saying the Russians put Trump in the White House. This is something completely different. But serious people who have studied as like Aaron Matei of the nation. Don't see that Russian. Social media added up too much of anything, and you know, this guy Nate silver's who's used to work for the times considered the number one electoral pollster in the United States. He's kinda guru. He said the other day that if there were a hundred factors that got Trump elected into sixteen Russian social media wouldn't make the list of one hundred and yet we have the New York Times, the Washington Post, the New Yorker magazine political. Saying that the Russians put Trump in the White House. So this is unprecedented. I think in modern American history, even Nixon during Watergate was never accused of being a foreign agent. So I come back to my point Trump occasionally meets with Putin. And he says, you know, we've got a rain in the new nuclear arms race because it really is a nuclear arms race. And we gotta be careful we don't shoot each other down when we're flying over Syria could lead the war. Putin says, right? Let's take steps to be careful. Trump comes home, and it's called treason, treason. So the dangers great. What worries me is? I think and I know in some cases that there are people in congress and in the mainstream media who agree, but they won't speak out. Fear of I don't know. Do you is your memory of the late McCarthy period? Does that include people whose lives were badly damaged by false accusations and suspicions? I remember a few. I remember my main professor at Columbia. I grew up in Kentucky. But I came to Columbia to get my PHD a great man, professor. John hazard had been called by McCarthy simply because John had been deputy director of Lend Lease during World War Two. You remember Lend Lease gave the Soviet army material to fight the Nazis, and we sent him Studebaker zoos and food and spam. And yet he was called by McCarthy's saying he had somehow been a Russian agent John had a horrible time. He I mean, he survived it. But it affected his life for years to come. So people have a genetic. We Americans have genetic memory of what happened. Plus, I don't think leaving aside. I guess the civil rights struggle on a few other examples, maybe we only have a very high tradition of civic, courage among people in power or positions of thority in this country. We think we're. Fiercely independent, pre speaking people, but compared to some nations not so much. I think one of the bizarre aspects of Russia gate is that in their frenzy to charge that the Russians have done such huge harm to fragile US institutions. These folks have actually themselves inflicted harm on the legitimacy of US institutions, including the presidency when also the US electoral apparatus. Well, I mean, I couldn't agree more. And it it continues. Its another argument I making this book war with Russia that in this insistence that the Russians quote attacked us in two thousand sixteen and there was no attack. But the New York Times refers to it as a digital Pearl Harbor. Imagine that Glenn. A digital Pearl Harbor. I mean, we've been attacked twice right Pearl Harbor. I barely remember it barely born. And again, I guess on nine eleven those were real attacks. Nothing like that happened in two sixteen. But when we say we were attacked by Russia during the election of two sixteen imagine how dangerous it is. It implies that we're in the state of war with Russia the other nuclear superpower, and that we should react accordingly. So you're getting this incredible warmongering that's going on now. And it's a learning that it's come from coming from liberal progressive circles, if not above all at least equally and so you have to wonder those of us who have supported liberal progressive agendas. What this means for those agendas? Moving ahead. I mean, Nancy Pelosi said the other day when she had been reelected speaker that she found Trump's relations with Putin appalling. Now every American president in my lifetime. Since Eisenhower has been empowered to deal with the Kremlin leader to avoid nuclear war. She is saying Trump should have no relations with the president of Russia. Where does that leave us, by the way, and your point about institutions is a very good one? If the Trump presidency is illegitimate, and that's what you know, people in the New York Times, for example. I cite the times only because it's the most influential paper in America say that Trump's presidency is illegitimate and the elections that put him there are illegitimate as you say, it makes it casts suspicion on two pillars of American democracy, the presidency and elections and can't stop just with Trump. Now. I mean, you have losing candidates in mocal elections literally saying that they lost because of the Russians. I mean evidence the Russians even knew they were candidates, but this is becoming an excuse. For losing. And this is a great irony. Here we have critics largely from the Democratic Party who complain about an imperial presidency presidency that wages war and moves tubes around without consulting, congress axes, if congress doesn't exist and imperial presidency, except when it comes to Russia, and then even the president can do nothing not even shake a hand. Well, that's it isn't exactly. And by the way for what it's worth. We never ask. What is the impact of these Russia gate allegations on Russia itself a lot I've been traveling to Russia for decades. I know a lot of Russians I know Russians like America Russians who don't like America. I know Russians who are very happy with Putin. I know Russians who are unhappy with Putin Russians. A verse people politically, but the impacts of these allegations that are now orthodox in America about Russia's role in our election into sixteen or badly, damaging Russian Democrats because they have argued for a long time that Russian needs to have more of the kind of democracy that America has. But now if you're ficials story is is that Russia subverted, our democracy, and that Trump is illegitimate and elections or Elhage where does that leave those people in Russia who complain about Russian elections because people say, well, they do the same thing in America. And you love America. So who cares? Putin's election re election to the presidency wasn't entirely kosher. It's better than it wasn't America. Lease. I mean, I heard this. I was there in November. And here this line of discussion. I don't know what people in Europe think of this. But obviously, we're becoming the subject of scoring around the world, and these are fictions, I mean, isn't true US media and US politicians routinely. Call Ladimir Putin a dictator, although they do have elections in Russia. There are different parties. The second-biggest party is the communist party, and there is polling in Russia. Polling done by Russian and western posters, which shows Putin is well phenomenally popular, so we come here to what for me a long time. Student historian, a Russian politics complicated question. I begin my new book war with Russia with a long essay. That's a fended a lot of people. It's called who peut. Is not and I look at each of the allegations against Putin. And I say, they just aren't true. For example, the allegation that he's ordered the assassination of his political enemies. There's no evidence. The question of Putin's authentic popularity in Russia is more copulate complicated. There's no question and notably. And as you say Russians have become szeswith polling. They the time survey opinion that even though there is growing discontent with Putin in Russia, mainly involving breadbasket issues inflation price of consumer goods and the rest he has a bedrock immense popularity because most people believe he saved Russia when he came to power in two thousand remembering that Russia was in agony after for the decade after the end of the Soviet Union. I mean men were dying on average fifty six people weren't receiving their pensions. Unemployment disappointment the economy had become bartering what you had inherited from your parents, your grandparents Russia was in danger of complete collapse and above all the people were in misery and Putin. And the people he brought around him turn that around. He was helped by high oil prices and all the rest, but they didn't steal that money. They put it back into the people. So Russia has begun to prosper under Putin during twenty years, and this is all reflected in in statistics and polls. So is Putin a dictator. Well, everything's relative. Right glenn. I mean, we look around our own lives, and we say how're things, and we say ourselves compared to what are they better or worse for us or people we care about than they were twenty years ago or ten years ago? That's the key question in any country and in Russia, whether we like Putin or not the Russian people generally are so much better off today after twenty years Putin's rule than they were before Putin. Choose any era, you want that political support means that the. The numbers he gets when he runs for reelection. Close to sixty five to seventy percent are confirmed by posters. That's basically his support. Now it absent flows. It's been as high as eighty it's dropped down to sixty that's normal. But imagine a politician who's been in office twenty years and retains his bedrock support that's pretty remarkable. And it has a lot to do with Putin. But a lot to do for Russians with what came before him. So it's contemptuous. And it's arrogant for Americans to criticize Putin, if the majority of Russian people believe that he's been kinda save your leader now future. Historians will judge him for both his pluses and his minuses, and I try to do that in my new book, I say here, I think are the pluses here the minuses, but we need some perspective. And all this demonizing Putin. Becomes part of this new Cold War? I asked myself, and I can't fully explain it. Why was it? Ok for every president of my lifetime. Since Eisenhower to deal with the leader of the Kremlin who were Soviet communist, Putin's anti-communists. He's a capitalist. He says deal with them regularly without it being called treason. And yet when American president talks about arms control or nuclear proliferation or terrorist in Syria with the Kremlin leader, it's called treason, something's happened. And it has more to do with us then which happened in Russia and find the think that the United States would be trying everything in its power to keep drescher and China apart. But it's been cleared that US policy has driven these two countries into what is now a strong strategic alliance that is. Certainly true, though, I would descend a bit from the way you set up the question that we should do everything possible to keep Russia and China apart my reaction that is two fold the old world order, which we sought to dominate the United States did. And did so successfully for decades is crumbling before our eyes. Whether we look at the east and the rise in China, or we look at the crisis of the European Union, and Brexit or we look at our own country, Trump's he's not an isolationist. But he's not an interventionist all these symptoms are signs of a world changing. One of the changes will be for obvious reasons that they are neighbors their natural trading partners. And they are both threatened by NATO that Russia and China are going to grow closer and closer together. If this means economic prosperity for both and not a military threat. I'm all for it. I mean, there's no reason why they shouldn't be prospering trade partners. It's a perfect fit. They have what the other needs goods and markets and investment. But as you say our policy is turning them into military strategic allies because we throw it in both of them. And that's the mistake. I would like president that not only blesses Russia Chinese economic cultural affinities, but participates in it and says the United States wants to join you it'll be it'll create jobs in America, but turning Russia in China as our Pentagon has done in recent years, even beginning under Obama as our two main enemies when neither actually threatens us is a grievous mistake. So I agree with you with the outcome. But I don't think there's any reason why we should worry about Russia. You know, it's interesting. Putin wants to create this so-called European Asian economic union modelled on the European Union. Why is it okay? For European countries to gather together to create a vast market, but it's not okay for Russia and China to do the same thing in the east. I mean, if we're all capitalists to the extent that we profess to be this is international global capitalism. If what's good for Europe and the United States, why wouldn't it be good for Russia and China if we care about people that expert Stephen Cohen Russia may be capitalist. But socialists around the world still seek the overthrow of the rule of the rich. Michael gates is an editor with the prestigious left publication monthly review. He's a long time labor educator. And the prolific author Yates latest book is entitled Ken, the working class changed the world Yates think they can and must but most Americans don't think of themselves as being in the working class and very few know that two hundred million Indian workers recently staged two day general strike now. This would be I think the eighteenth general spike in the last twenty years in in India, the largest general strikes the world has ever stained. They're usually short duration and they haven't managed to win great victories yet. But it shows that people can be organized not only I mean, not many workers in in the are in union, for example, yet tens of millions of people without unions people who are working in the most onerous conditions. Millions of women at cetera participated in these general strikes. And by the way, it's interesting to note that my book can the working class change the world that that you were. Reading has just been translated into Hindi. And I got a picture from some comrades in India at this big book fair in Delhi holding holding my book, and it was the first day that strike so it was an auspicious publication date for the book. Well, I think one of the problems here in the United States is really that you're in the center of the B so to speak, and your people are the least informed, and even when you see like progressive politicians, and and some of the democratic socialists of America. I mean, there's there's some good things happening. I'm gonna say that there aren't and there are some people with progressive ideas. There's no question, and yet they seem to take sort of a nationalistic point of view instead of a global point of view, the problem with that is that capital global in nature. It's it's it's the first system that has an expansionary impetus built into it. And so what you see is that it starts local. It goes national goes global it infiltrates every aspect of our lives from birth to death. It's a global system. It's a it's a hegemonic system that's the tally and most people in the United States, even those that that are people that claim to be radical. Don't don't tend to see that. You saw that for example in the Sanders campaign. I think there's in some ways there's not a lot of Dennis between Trump and Sanders in the sense that make America great again, America. I there are a lot of complicated issues. We can get into. But it strikes me that global system is one that requires a global response, and you don't see that much in the United States out. There have been no successful socialist revolutions in the rich capitalist nations. Although there have been attempts serious ones right after World War One. Why have the successful revolutions been in the former colonial world and in the periphery of capitalism. Well, I think one of the explanations for that is that if you look at at the global south, for example, this is where you see what you might call super exploitation of workers. We I'm their to'real director of monthly be pressingly published this book by a man from Great Britain, John Smith called twenty first century imperialism, and he points out that in the global south. You have people that make a wage that's less than one that will allow a worker to a worker in his family to reproduce it self. In other words, they're living at below subsistence. And so you have tremendous amounts of profit being sucked out of the labor of people in the global south, and it goes to the global north. In fact, it helps to finance the states of the global north. If you think about it because the global north is gonna tax the corporations to some extent, it's gonna tax rich people to some extent and their living from wealth. It's created in the global south. So the level of oppression in the global south is extreme. And in a way, it's like what was true in the earliest days is capitalism where as the great British story, EP Thompson points out there's an assault upon an entire way of life by capital, and it's not grasp -able by people and they revolt against it like a Luddite who destroyed machines who demand they'd be treated as human beings there riots in the streets, Philadelphia and working class neighborhoods because the new system strikes them like a hammer blow. Well, that's the way of the tens of millions of billions of workers in the in the global south feel every day. And so they're more likely to feel that emotionally whereas in the rich capitalist countries capital has become powerful through nationalism, for example. So that people come to think of themselves as Americans or British or French, and you can see that by creating the other capital wins a tremendous. Victory can get working class people to kill themselves by the tens of millions and World War One World War Two in in all sorts of in all sorts of of conflicts. So to some extent that profit that squeezed out of the global south helps to buy off it working class in the group worth the trouble is that that's come tune in pre much and working class organizations that were successful in the global north or under attack all over the place. And so you can see that the whatever victories workers have one point out in chapter four of the book. I think whatever they want in the global north even in the most advanced countries in terms of working class standards of living Scandinavian countries, for example, or under under sharp attack by capital. You know, be global. They move their enterprises they threaten to move their enterprises to to the global south. So the goal without where the oppression is the greatest in the global south that you'd sing successful revolutions in the Soviet Union, for example in China in Cuba in Vietnam and someone in the global north the divide in the working class the power of capital, the combination of the state and capitalist. So great that it's precluded any any sort of anti-capitalist revolution. So far. Your educational project. In fact, you begin within definition of who is the working class? But as you point out most unions in the United States don't have educational programs much less radical educational programs. Well, I'm probably the person to talk to you about that since I spent over thirty years of labor educator, and what I what I discovered was is that that's true that unions in the United States. Some of them have had in the past a good education programs and some still try to like the United electrical workers, for example, a union that attempts to educate its workers from the get-go once they become union members, and so on, but I had an interesting experience once that your listeners might be interested in I was teaching workers in Johnstown, Pennsylvania sort of quintessential industrial small city. That's still was the Dom. -ment corporation US still had some things to reminders. And so on around there. So I'm teaching group of workers and some of them work at this air conditioning company in the small little town near Johnstown and union has made concessions employer. Mid contract. They already had a click the bargaining agreement. Then the bigwigs in the United steel workers union decided to abrogate that contract and make concessions to the employers. Well, the students in my class, they take every class. They it was a classic quick the bargaining, and they went back, and they won an election to get people like to their local, and then they threatened strike, and what have you and they got back what the union had given away. And one of the things you find that union leaders, don't like education classes, because what what what might happen their positions challenged. And if you look at the way unions or structure in the United States, quite often, they're structured just like the class enemy. They're structured just like corporations are. There's a great book by Greg shot. Well, called auto workers under the gun and the United Auto Workers has always been pointed to as a very progressive union, supposedly progressive on issues of race, for example, supporting the civil rights, which of course, Walter Reuther, then president of the union did on the other hand, you have black workers revolting against the unions. And the revolutionary union movements of the nineteen seventies against the United Auto Workers. And it's a one party state. You try to win power and that union as a dissident, then you're going to be a lot of trouble. So unions fear education programs. There are some education programs that are associated with colleges. I've taught in many of those Penn State had one Cornell how one university of Massachusetts -chusetts damn Hearst university of Indiana. I taught everyone of those, and it was interesting when I first went to taught at UMass Amherst, I was red baited, buddy. If they'll see. Never some people didn't want me to be in that program because they said the communist. Well, I managed to get in the program, and and it worked out pretty well. But those those programs are all under the gun the university's attack them. They say they're not bringing in enough revenue and the union support for those programs. It gets weaker and weaker. And so you're right labor education is an ongoing struggle in the United States, and they're good people that are involved in it, but not nearly enough and the unions themselves don't have many education programs. Sure, they might trainer Straub stewards to file grievances, and that sort of thing, but then workers don't learn anything about labor history. They don't learn anything about the capital of economic system. Now, I tried to do that in my classes for thirty years. And it's interesting, I never met a worker never in any class that I ever taught no matter where it was from smoke a union halls and Johnstown college classrooms, where that labour three value marks the notion that workers are exploited in their exploitation is sort of of their employers wealth didn't resonate. It always does, you know? So you have to actually help wasn't that happening more often? And maybe the answer is that there. I mean, look rich Trumka what's he ever done? When's he ever made a statement on race, for example in the United States, one of the fundamental divide within the working class when ever organized mass strikes mass protests even against this government shutdown the only about who's Trump because he's never missed a meal since he's been headed AFL CIO? His pension keeps getting bigger and bigger, but less and less app. Well, that brings up something. Studies have shown which ethnic groups in the United States are more or less favorable to unions. And they show that at the top that is the group. Most favorable to unions is black women. Followed by black men, then descending order Hispanic women. Followed by Hispanic men, and then going down the list white women and at the bottom, the least favorable to unions in the United States. The least favorable group is white men and yet white men control most of the unions doesn't that just speak for myself? I mean, it almost doesn't need any explanation. Because if you look at the groups who are most favorable us aren't those the people in the United States who are most like the workers in the Bogle. In fact, as far as banning go, they came from the global south as immigrants, of course, black people came to the United States that slaves who's very bodies were owned by capital, in fact, and whose labors made the whole system possible when you get right down to it. There's been a whole new history building on the works of the great WB. The boys that capitalism has Rachel from the get go. So that black workers Hispanic workers Limon black women and they face kind of a super exploitation like the workers in the global south. So they're there most attuned to the nature of the system, and they're most likely to see what's needed. Now. This is not to say that divides don't occur within those groups to. I mean that would be night think and of course, capitals, click the fine, isn't it? It's quick the find the black woman who's a conservative black men conservative the Spanich conservative. And then try them out on Fox News. As if they represent the entire group of people, which is completely falls. I wrote a book one time call why unions matter, and I have a picture of this construction union every leader a white, man. The only unions that are dominated by women or like, the nurses union where most of most of the workers are are women. There are couple of unions where there there are black men and women who are in positions of you know, to top the union hierarchy. But there just aren't very many. So you have you could see the power of race there as a divider of the working class. And when you see that black people are oppressed and living in the most miserable conditions, then of course, when you have sided structured racially when people live their lives as whites for example. Then the fact that Moore bloggers are imprisoned that more black workers do crappy jobs make learning wages, then that justifies what way we're think about. Them and they say to themselves. Well, look, they must be in fear. 'cause look at where they are without seeing that the system is structured in such a way. So that that happens is like one time a co worker of mine when I was a college teacher said that he might be more productive than because pay with higher. You write that you recognize that strictly class based schemes will never close the gap in wages between blacks and whites muchness, the huge gap in wealth. And if that is the case, then blacks, of course, could not be expected to join with people who insist on a class only kind of politics. Well, no, that's certainly true. And I, you know, I my thinking on that is has undergone some changes, you know, used to be probably you could say when I was younger, and I I learned about marks. And so on I probably was more inclined to take a class. This not remember with respect to say. Environmental struggles the editor month review magazine, or I'm associated with month review. John Foster was one of the first people to really talk about their degradation of the environment by capital, and I used to think why so much focus on that. Why not focus on the working class? And of course, the begin to see that those struggles are are obviously tied together. And the same thing's true with race with racing gender racist been especially important factor in countries like the United States, but in but in lots of the global north. So that rate has an independent affect on people in many, many ways as everything will study shows, you cannot do a study where you isolate the race of a person the skin color of a person where you can isolate that as a factor that determines a lots of other things, and there's not a single study that doesn't show that race in an audit self as an important determine wages. It's an important. Termine of well, that's an important determinant of your success in the labor market and so on and so so I don't really see why scholars say eight read can't see that that racist something that has to be dealt with on its own as you wage the class struggle. That's the point, you know, people say a lot of radicals have said, well, that's divisive that fighting within the working class over issues of race device that fighting over issues of gender is device fighting about the environment is divisive. Well, that's a lot of nonsense to me if you don't address those struggles inside organization inside of every working class struggle inside of Occupy Wall street inside of labor unions inside of political organizations, like the democratic socialist grown so rapidly in the United States, if you don't deal with this race inside of those organizations, then they're gonna fester. And like you say it's gonna. Alienate, the very people who are the strongest advocates of unions of political struggle of brattle change. And just seems like a dead end strategy to me and one doomed that the failure of seems like a lot of people on the left so to speak and in the United States, for example, just don't see that. And they continue to make the same kind of lame arguments over and over and over and over and over again, and and you just see you could feel that's that's strategies, just not ever going to work and me give you an example of of why I taught a class one time to auto workers in Pittsburgh. They had a plant there that make parts for used cars. And it was very it was very interesting and one day a white worker in the class made a rather disparaging remark about people see public assistance and black sister got up and challenge the person, and it was interesting because in that class. Room in that union structure. We could discuss that we could deal with that she stood up for herself. He was made to look foolish. And in the end, I think there was an increase in understanding. Why don't see what's wrong with that? That's what's necessary. You have to have those kinds of struggles inside your organization to build class Salisbury racial divide in the United States. Sometimes seems just so overwhelming to me I kinda lose hope in some ways. But then you'll see things and around the world and get you some hope that does divides can be conquered mean take a country like India class structure, the the caste system is bite into skin color is tied into all kinds of things. It's like seems overwhelming to defeat it. And yet you see these general strikes. There's some attempt to overcome that. So it's really the only hope for us. I think the only the only hope is that like I phrase it in the book this way, he have a system that's based upon the exploitation of wage labor. But we have a system. Expropriation as well and land has been expropriated from peasants bodies have been expropriated from black people through slavery, and that the labor of women in the households has been expropriated, and those are just as a central to the workings of the system as the exploitation, and unless you do those problems as a unified whole, and you just on every front all the time. Then capital always win author Rennes Lieber educator, Michael Yeats, supporters of Moumia a boo Jamal, then since best known political prisoner rally in Philadelphia last week get mandate in the city district attorney Larry Krassner do nothing to interfere with a boo Jamal chance to appeal his conviction and the death of a policeman thirty eight years ago, a long list of people. To the microphone beginning with a high school classmate of Abboud Jamal when Moore Mia was known as Wesley cook name is James Chisholm junior classmate of brother cooks from classes, sixty nine of Malcolm X, high school, brother, cook and myself were currently and wool MAC and a few others with the ones who got together and decided that we needed to African American principal and a ninety five percent black male high-school. That's why. Lowenstein was asked to leave. And we got brother bath we decided that we needed black department heads in high school because it was ninety seven percent black. That's how we got the department heads. I was fortunate enough to be accepted into a dominantly black college Shaw university about enough Carolina. I wasn't able to finish because the mayor here that time cut the model cities grants which everybody knows and built that gallery, which was a failure. And a lot of people to understand the reason why failure because a lot of our children knew that our grants to have us finish in the predominantly black colleges was taken away from us and our soft more junior year but moving forward because I've followed this movement, and I've been in, you know, Ben Franklin high school, which is what it was called. My diploma says been Franklin high school, all my ward say, Malcolm. Ex high school and Sam by Beverly Andreas what I'm just saying at sixty six years old, you know, and being able to now being retired for four years. I've been down to the Justice center. I held up a sign and say, Malcolm, X, highschool classes, sixty nine support you, and it was never shown on the TV. But now God has blessed me with being able to be on executive committee of the NAACP. And I was just elected the second most vote getter of twenty four -secutive board members of the NAACP. And I'm here to tell you that my primary purpose was first to try to get elevators at broad neary. 'cause I don't understand why all these other corners have elevators, and we have a hospital a community legal centre and all these veterans that come the broad neary. And we should have had elevators there before they was at market street fifteenth market. But now my since they didn't put up my sign. And I know they saw it now when I m installed in January my primary purpose is going to be to ask president Rodney Mohammed to insist to an effort to include free via Jamal immediately. Once we are installed. And I'm going to do that. Because I remember him sitting across the table from me saying brother chairs, we gotta do this. Everybody thought that we couldn't close down that high school. It was brother, Dave Richardson, who was my mentor who. Who who called to high school and say listen Rizzo getting a run up in the chain the doors? We changed the doors people said that Edison had been Franklin couldn't be in the same room. Together. We were in the gym together. People said that women could not be in the same together. We have William Penn grants and other high schools in gym and close it down today removed Lowenstein in in install bass. So I'm just saying I think God has loved me to be mothball the more until this time because I think if I had a spoke out, and then more vocal I wouldn't be in the position that I am now because I'm going to push this forward I've been in the political world. But I think that I'm gonna leave that to the young ones, and I'm gonna make sure that when I am stall that this is the first primary purpose that we put forward in the Philadelphia in AA c p. An lamb is going to speak to us about the larger fight to free political prisoners. Thank you. Oh, what's what's the goal? What's glow? What's go? What's the goal? That's a call really proud and honored to be today. Thank you sister Johanna work with the Jericho movement. We were formed back in nineteen ninety eight for all US held political prisoners and prisoners of war had the honor and the privilege to work with such people as sister Safia Bukhari who I'd like to pretend type for so few Cari prescient. Harman ferguson. I could go on and on with presenting because we have lost a lot of people inside those walls, and we all know that. And we have memories of many of them, and it is very sad. You know, that we were not able to build a large enough movement to pull people out of there before they had to die inside. And we certainly don't want to die inside. And we know his health is not good. So even though we're having a little celebration here. We also have to remember that the DA the so-called progressive DA crasner is likely going to appeal this decision. So even though we have been fighting against that and have people doing phone calls. Emails rallied at cetera. Keep spreading the word. People people can still get in touch with the class. We need to keep it up. Keep the pressure on that DA. However, we have to do it. You know, put a fire under him and make sure that he does not appeal could you appeal? That will make all this take that much longer and Mumia has psoriasis believer. He has glaucoma. He's not well, he's sixty four years old Mammalia is like one of our greatest political prisoners in terms of his speaking and his writing, and you know, we're really happy to have him in the world. I happen to be wearing today. A t shirt with a quote from Bobby Sands. It's not just the Palestinians who support. Amihai political prisoners. We got Irish political prisoners political prisoners. We have you know, people all over the world who support our political prisoners. We have Bosc political prisoners who support political prisoners we have Turkish political prisoners who support our political prisoners we up into an international work for a long long time. So I think it's pastime not only for me to come home. It's past time for everybody to come home. It's past time for shell McGee to come home. He's been down since nineteen sixty three time. Ed Poindexter who is innocent and just past forty eight per day inside the walls to come home. It's time for chip. It's Gerald to come home. It's time for Giulio monta Keam to come home. It's time for Dr Mathu Lucia to come how it's time for Marius Mason to come home. It's time for all these prisoners who have been locked down. For so many years to come home. And the reason they've been walked down is because the US government is afraid of their ideas. They're not afraid they're gonna come out here, and we sit avait Deva freight. They're gonna come out here and talk to people and educate people out here. Just like they've all been doing inside. They have mentored thousands and thousands of young men and women. It is time for all the move people to come home who way Pash time for the move people to be home. You know, we got a lot of innocent people lot behind these walls, not to stop political prisoners. I have met so many people inside the political prisoners have told me, and this guy's wrongfully convicted and this person over here is wrongly convicted tomorrow, I'm going to see Reverend joy Powell Reverend Troy Powell was wrongfully convicted Reverend Troy Powell's anti police brutality activists from Chester New York and was framed up. So when the dish into taking care of. And worrying about we also have to worry about everybody else. And we can do it. And we know we can do it. 'cause this year pass we got four political prisoners out the door. That's we up people. We people exercise power, and perseverance and we pulled out for people, and we hope to full out more. We got Herman bell out the door. Right. We got Robert said out the door. And he sends regard and Jaffe spoke to him very recently. He's sends regards to everybody and also to mayor. We got Debbie Africa out the door. Fantastic. We got my for God spin out the door. Right. So I say, you know, it shows we can do it. If we have, you know, like Johannes said, we have an intergenerational struggle. We have older people we have younger people, we can all learn from each other. We all need to be United. We all need to work together. Because you only way we're ever going to defeat. This system is if we are United in one mighty fist the only way. So what's the call three? Them name is Megan Malachi in. I'm from Philly real Justice. And I just wanted to talk a little bit about what it's like to grow up in Philly with the shadow of Moumia. So whenever I'm at these events. I think about the fact that I'm thirty seven and that Mooney has been incarcerated my entire life. I think about what it's like to grow up knowing about the Black Panthers. Who are stripped naked by rizzo's cops and having parents who grew up in west Philly and my dad coming home from college and being assaulted, by rizzo's cups. So when you're young going up in Philly, you grew up in the shadow of all of that white supremacist Philadelphia history. So people have already talked about what it would mean for the movement, if mummy came home, but I think we also need to stress how much it would mean to the youth who are in the streets struggling if Mumia came home all the youth know about meek mill. But not enough of them know about moon Mia Mia is the original political prisoner that most of the people my age, no about some also was schoolteacher and I'm trying to teach the youth about what muni means, and what it means to be a black Philadelphian growing up with the history of this city. Not only are we going to bring me a home. We're going to bring the rest of the move nine home. Not only are we going bring me a home, but we're going to bring all political prisoners home because we always talks about how every single person locked up is a political prisoner, and we can't pick and choose who wants to come home based on their so-called politics because everyone who's lacked up is a political prisoner because they are wrapped up in these white supremacist politics. And finally were also going to bring that Rizzo statue down. Talks about how bringing the Rizzo statue down is simply a symbolic gesture. But I think that's an incomplete understanding of what Rizzo has meant to the people in this city. And also what it means to be a poor person in the city to go and pay your water Bill to go and pay your housing taxes in the neighborhood that's being gentrified and have to walk past the Rizzo statute. So I'm in this moment right now as a relatively young person feeling so hopeful because I know that this city and all of us black oppressed people have the capacity to do so much. So I want us all to stay in the streets. I want us to talk about in our classrooms and in our homes because this is the most important movement. I've seen in about twenty years. So on a move. You've been listening to the black agenda report on the progressive radio network information for liberation.

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