11 Episode results for "Predatory Journal"
The predatory publishers sucking science's blood (Summer Season)
"ABC podcasts Scott. Chinn hey on the Tesha Mitchell. Welcome nick the quake the doot of a Predator as a reporter. You get all kinds of of little suggestions. Tips complaints this. And you can't deal with them all. This one intrigued me. I had started to hear about similar complaints and sort of once. You hear enough of them the signal adds up you think. Maybe there's a story here. What was I seeing What what the clued that? That Mela rash well. I was a researcher myself. I was a faculty librarian at my university and I did. Research probably starting five six years ago I I was always looking for publishing opportunities. I started getting letters and I started to receive these emails. Sort of saying extremely nice. Nice things to me that basically said call for Paper Journal Editors Wanting Me To submit my manuscript to their journal and they had lots of grammatical errors in addition to that one and the emails and then generally speaking editor. I don't say very nice things about you and they don't typically they don't write to you and ask you to submit a manuscript. Will you ever tempted to meet. No no I mean I'm a clinical epidemiologist in some of these journals were lifted from soil. Science right why would somebody from soil science be asking me saying Nice things about me. They wouldn't no me from anywhere he's smells a rat. I did maybe several but that rash or several thousand read via now. Well and truly on the loose predatory publishes and the Predatory Journal has become a mega industry global in reach ending ending destructive potential. In fact you're going to hear from someone who believes that the industry represents the big threat to don in the inquisition shen the US. Federal Court recently ordered one of the biggest of the company to pay up over fifty million. US dollars only make. International headquartered voted in Hyderabad in India but also operating in the US climbed the publish hundreds of medical journals found to employ deceptive business practices essentially entrapping fantasy to offer published in the Journal or participate in conferences. The Doug the ruling bye-bye predatory publishes well. Let's see if Any of that money actually moves anywhere. It's not clear with a the group will cough up that fifty million dollars which is an estimate of how much the company made from customers over a period. All whether we'll appeal we tend to leave leaked of question to its representative yet to receive a reply but it is nice. Clear message to all the Sake Journal. Publishers of the world that they're being watched watched and there could be consequences. Joan Bohannon thought journalists and now director to add an artificial intelligence data in San Fran called primer. They didn't biscuit slipping under the radar. And using American Canadian European banks to move money millions of dollars of money from a complicit gains so this court ruling basically makes that extremely inconvenient to do now. John was to present evidence in the kite board again. Anthem IQ Group by the Federal Trade Commission. Because he'd had an unusually Hansa with the publisher so all mix was one of hundreds of publishers offers that I tested in sting operation. I wrote some computer code to generate thousands of very bad scientific papers. They have been negative kind of legendary inside the back in two thousand twelve John Reporting for the general died and the Expression Predatory Journal Common News. there was a guy named Geoffrey Yu who was probably the only person around making in a big public. Stink about this and trying to actually Shine a light on it. It was very very bold effort. He had something called feels list or at least it became known as beal's lest my name is Jeffrey Bill. And I'm a retired academic librarian from University of Colorado Denver. But make the deal. Beal Blackley fame and a climb and karate he was the first to coin. The Phrase Predatory Journal the Journal. Publishers hated being malysz because it it stigmatizes them in meant that their income was decreased. Most of the predatory publishers are predatory not only in their publishing but in just the way they operate in general and they would use the heckler's actors veto. They would call the library director and complain about me and they would try to annoy people at my university as much as possible in order to manipulate those people at the university to make me stop the list so that their complaints would stop. I also received several threats of legal action including think it was is in twenty twelve international threatened to sue me for one billion dollars one billion dollars. It was just a threat. What I learned from it is that you can basically basically pay an attorney? Five hundred dollars all right a threatening letter so they they did that but they never followed through with. It was never introduced in any court consequences consequences. Jeffrey of running that black leaked were immense. And I'll come back to that. One estimate suggests that there are at least eight thousand predatory journals it is just one publisher of many but Jeffrey Bill provocatively cold. The the evil empire of Predatory Publishing I stand Dan by that statement and what they do is they really hurt a lot of people. You know the scholarly publishing system works on the honor system and people operate in good faith but oh mix international has has totally broken all that down. They use a lot of spamming to solicit article manuscripts from researchers they have journal titles that match the titles of respected journals. Usually one word off enough to confuse people that it might be the respected journal in the `field they will at People's names to their editorial boards without the person's permission people from top universities top researchers in the field and they'll use their identity to promote the journal and when the person finds out about it and ask them to remove their name. They don't remove it they just leave it there because they're operating operating from foreign country. There's really nothing you can do about it. And they especially prey on young researchers in emerging researchers researchers who don't speak English as their first language. It's not just dont. As from developing countries that a toggle though that even acknowledged problem clinical epidemiologist. David moas taste the Croats at reaching into some of America's most delayed institutions including Harvard in the analysis that we did where we looked at a close to two thousand thousand articles published in Predator journals. We found that actually the most frequent corresponding authors were from what we would call first world countries countries with lots of money and lots of resources that is troubling very troubling because it suggests that at these institutions authors may not Be Aware of predatory journals and are we need to obviously ramp up some educational activities. People think that they're sending the manuscript to a legitimate respected journal. When it's really just a phony dough mix international journal and then they quickly accept the paper without any peer review and then send them an invoice and that point the authors realized that something is wrong because There was really no peer reviewed done yet papers accepted and they have this two thousand dollars invoice that comes through email and the olmecs demanding payment. Most of them asked to withdraw the paper when they realized that they've been duped. But then omits says says you can't withdraw your paper unless you pay US withdrawal fee. An often than olmecs will publish the article quickly and one of their journals and then and they can't submit it anywhere else. Because that would be duplicate submission it would be publishing the same article twice. which is something not supposed to do that? Nothing about Predatory Street Journal devoted to pose to happening time as John Bohannon Govett when he hit them. Attest yes yeah so I just wanted some data. It's frustrating to have such an enticing story of you know bad actors that potentially raking in millions of ill-gotten dollars dollars and not get some data to find out if it's true. We stay in molecular biology from offered. Clave he plotted experiment which was pretty straightforward. And the idea in a nutshell is if I submit a really and I mean truly bad scientific paper to your journal final and you accept it with no sign of any peer review and you asked me for money then you're you're a fake journal Publisher Sharma sure. Yeah John Wanted to take to how easy it was to get published in a predatory journal it can usually take many months used even to get a pipe into a reputable contact general and even then it's not a given that partly because of what's called Peer Review essential to the conduct protest. You Do Fairmont you. You brought it up reporting your results. Submit it to a journal and then it pulled destroyed by a bunch of other daunting and though it should that Pity Review It's designed to Cape on rigorous behrman twelve and the results real usable Andrey projectable many predatory regional diet. I Conduct Peer Review Body Fat. Most of them don't do appear review. They go through the motions of Peer Review. They might have like a stock doc period. You that they use for every paper that's submitted and basically the papers are accepted in just published almost immediately as soon as the invoices paid and so pure review view is it's it's a fundamental component of how honest journals carry out their business of looking at manuscripts and seeing seeing whether they're fatally flawed or whether they can be improved and whether they're acceptable for publication dive Moa Director of the dentists agenda in a Lola at the Ottawa Hospital the institute at the University of Ottawa. Hey and colleagues just hosted a global summit on predatory journals because they what a bill to content as Ivo what they are and how to shut them down so is these sorts of behaviors and many other behaviors. That are not trustworthy. gately deal when something is published in a scholarly journal that doesn't represent validated science. Then then it pollutes the whole scientific record and can't build on junk science or if you do the future science isn't real science either you don three. IB Theory and with main attaches Mitchell. We're looking at predatory publishes and the threat. They poke dawn. Goal is sheep in truth so back took don gentlest John by Hannah. And he's Sting Operation Own Predatory Journal mm-hmm. You wrote a psych paper in fact you you actually wrote a computer program to write hundreds of pipers. Yeah actually it spat out thousands. I ended up only needing hundreds. He's computer program changed the authors affiliations chemicals Chantelle and other ingredients fairmont but funding was pretty much time and the world potentially will changing. Yeah it was a thrill Cuba Canada. John I was basically claiming that this chemical that I found in this little lichens little plant plant like creature was able to kill cancer. Cells in solution. So you know in principle you could inject this stuff into your blood like you. Doing chemotherapy be and it would hopefully kill off the cancer cells and I had these very impressed with charts showing the results very impressive. Yeah it fights value the pipe hypoc standard convicting but they will all dated with glaring eras. And this would take literally one minute just one glance really of any reasonable title science. Who was doing peer review of this paper you just look at the numbers representing this charts and they just make no sense at all? Just don't make any sense and the design if the experiment that was fatally flawed too. I mean these are the kind of mistakes that high school stupid make like these. This isn't even college mistakes. This is just like the biggest most most embarrassing scientific mistake imagine. This isn't subtle stuff and then John Wind even I just wanted to like bring it to the next level so at the into the paper I have the authors say that you know. The next thing we're going to do is test. This humans which to any reviewer should be the biggest red flag I mean aside from the fact the science it looks like completely junk. That's just completely unethical. Then he targeted general predatory including two run by tape one cold medicinal chemistry another biology amid the eight-month he admitted ten pipers awake and what happened. Next is incredible incredible. Any reasonable publisher should have looked at that paper and said not in no way on that publishing this a lot of journals. Dd Yes it gives us the very murray doc stats well. The darkest of dark stats is that sixty percent of the publishers accepted. My article did any any of those sixty percent off to you to make any kind of amendments almost never when they did it it involved. Formatting trivial changes often they would asked me to add citations two papers that they'd published which is also really not a good practice but now they almost never did any substantial reviews and even in the Buick that DDP to conduct some kind of Conduct Peer Review John Piper with open accepted. Anyway I even after a damning review. What more to mainstream todd and the publishing L. V. and Daij court out not much to their embarrassment? Yeah it was grim. That was not a great day for Scientific Publishing and so over. The course of that experiment took months to finish. I just sort of got more and more pessimistic about the publishing world. It really changed my view of the whole industry that I was part of some people who a had been caught up in the sting did contact me afterwards effect. We got at least one angry letter to the editor from one of these journals. Yeah that got caught with its pants down but I don't have that much sympathy for them because they had the one job. You know if you're the editor of journal all you gotTa do is withhold the integrity of the journal and clearly weren't doing that as of the more reputable journals a betrayal of trust and. I wonder what you'll respond CANETTI's Oh yeah. Yeah absolutely everyone craft all over the whole thing. How else would they have reacted? It was basically like taking the giant dump on their entire world. A couple of editors lost their jobs but considering that they had jobs that a fake journal. I I don't see that it's such the big loss so it either a handful of us now. In the industry the Predatory publishing industry has not gone away has not left. Scott team fact all indications that it has grown Mac. Delay going strong. If you carried out the sting operation again. What do you think? Oh I think the picture would probably be worse if I were to do it again. Though I'll tell you what I would do is I would Send a sample papers to the the publishers. Who have the more traditional model as well it? It's kind of amazed me that this whole problem that I uncovered was dismissed by many for the simple fact that I hadn't also submitted fake papers to different kinds of journals at so they felt like they were being unfairly picked picked on the people in the Nexus Publishing Movement and Compassionate Movement. Did they think that you had unfairly. Targeted them in particular. Oh yeah absolutely they drag me through the mud. It was really unpleasant claiming that I'm Michelle's for the traditional scientific publishing world which is hilarious if if you've known me at all it's really quite the opposite. I'm quite an advocate for open access everything but whatever it's fine God's gentlest John Bohannon the confusion between the open active publishing movement and predatory journals eased perhaps for another edition of the show it controversial you both charge authors to publish their pipers. Instead of plugging raiders subscribe with phase. So the open access document for that. Is that opened up on knowledge like never before afraid that up from behind traditional general pie walls but come believe the orthopedic model creates an inherent conflict of interest and that prey traded tree publishes of taking advantage of that in order to build prophet and the taking advantage of gone to who are desperate to get published in the publish. This you'll perish culture at dying. Some of them are taking up the offer because they're being tricked by the predatory publishers. And that's why I use the term predatory because they're preying on them. They're they're preying on their weaknesses that people need to get published so people are earning degrees. People are getting promotions at universities. People people are earning tenure. In some cases based on a publications in low quality fake predatory journals that don't conduct any peer review and have almost no settling at all they accept everything and we've also learned that Pharmaceutical companies are publishing their research to justify the the efficacy of their new medicines are using predatory journals to do that as well. What do you think the K.? Drive is of the predatory journal Sane has been. It's easy easy money. Jeffrey Built Blackley to all of predatory journals grew in influence as did his reputation. Publish publishes the now the push back angrily at him at criteria for inclusion on the lease at Lone ranger approach at he denora antagonism them of open active publishing some went straight to he'd universities Ladyship to attack your credibility and he became a kind of hybrid of hero in. I'm Tara how did he university respond for the most part for the first few years they were supportive of me and the legal office did help me. Could I have some tricky situations you know that. I had gotten in because of the threats from the publishers but towards the end I think they grew weary of me A.. And the support decreased. Dav receive pressure to shut Daniel blog from your university. I received the pressure but it wasn't pressure to shut shut down the blog. Things became increasingly uncomfortable towards the end before I retired I retired a year ago. Did it become uncomfortable. The university he did that some things I used to have an office and they took me out of an office and put me into a cubicle. They hired a new person to work in the library. He had two years of library experience and they made him be my supervisor. And you know part of Predatory publishing there's a broader context to it. There's a social movement behind open access publishing. A lot of people want to kill off the traditional publishers and had them all replaced with open access journals so that everybody throughout the world connects us all published research and it's a very Left wing social movement. And so the person that came in as my supervisor was among among those people and so we had strikingly kingly different ideologies about scholarly publishing. So that was way a pressured. Me Why did you. Shutdown bills leaked in in two thousand seventeen taint it has reincarnated with anonymous editors income since to protect themselves from what you went through. But why did you decide to shut it down. Well in January array of that year. I learned that the university was working with one of the publishers on my list and the results of that was that the university initiated a research. I misconduct investigation against me and I knew I hadn't engaged any research. Misconduct myself because research misconduct means means of falsification fabrication or plagiarism. By definition and I knew I hadn't done any of that yet they started this case against me and I felt very stigmatized passed by it and that kind of sealed it for me with the university. I you know take another action against me and now here was something major research misconduct case. And that's why I decided to stop the list. What was the outcome of that case the outcome in July of twenty seventeen was snow? Research misconduct found at that. Make you feel it made me feel horrible. I felt like my own university that I worked at for seventeen years. I was turning against me and I felt stigmatized and I felt like I really can continue the work. And that's why I shut down the blog and the lists you you think that builds leaked with attributes of that action. Sure it was a publisher that they worked with was a big one and the predatory Tori publishers. The ones that are doing really well are rich. They have lots and lots of money. They can hire lawyers to go after people and they can organiz well. And there are several very large very successful predatory publishers out there and and they have a lot of power and they we'll go after anybody who threatens their income publisher the publisher was frontiers. So you just ask them to be predatory publisher. Yeah Yeah and I had lots of evidence from stuff that they had published. They published an article about Chem trails in the Sky Cam conspiracy theory yeah. They published an article about that which they quickly retracted. After I wrote a blog post about it. They they published an article saying that. HIV doesn't cause AIDS. So I had lots of lots of solid evidence that they weren't really conducting Valla Peer Review Diet. It's not necessarily making them a predatory publish plenty of crap lanes up in good journals But it gets gets retracted and publishing junk. Science is one of the criteria that I use to evaluate publishers if you submit in an article to a publisher thinking it's good publisher when they're publishing crap science poor science that is a type of predation against on researchers. They don't want to be associated shared with junk science. And for the University of Colorado Dame Vera. Where Jeffrey held a tenured faculty position would not comment on any research? Misconduct misconduct investigation but told not friction that the university quote defended and supported perfect to build academic freedom to do predatory publishing part of scholarship. Junk thank you seem predatory channel you in colleague have conducted a study to analyze the quality of the research that the studies that Mike hitting two that are directed by predatory journals. What talking observations did you make? The Quick Tanko messages at the quality of reporting of these articles is really horrendously. Bad Epidemiologist David Moa at the University of Ottawa. And when we compare that to do what we might consider. Is the legitimate literature it. It's very very much worse. And that's not to say that there aren't problems in the quality of reporting noting of Legitimate Journal with our our but when we moved to predatory journals it suggests that there's Do the screening. That's going on so. For example we consider peer review in a sense of screen of the integrity and the scientific composer of the research is perhaps not going on many of these papers. These are funded by Reputable agencies and so in a country like Canada were much research is paid out of You you know taxpayer dollars. It's really very very wasteful. It scientifically very problematic. It won't be seeing won't be cited and of course it's a waste of money any and it. It may also contribute to sort of adding layers of fakeness to what people are trying to. That is the truth because they don't conduct a proper peer review and their publishing bogus science. If you have an agenda A nonscientific agenda agenda pseudoscientific agenda. You can use predatory publishers to publish your work. You know two of the biggest open questions in in science are what what is the nature of dark matter and what is the nature of dark energy this is from cosmology. And there's no scientific consensus as to the answers to those two questions in their big big questions in cosmology and physics the biggest Clinton's of all I think so but those questions have been answered many times in predatory journals or knows there's lots of people writing articles claiming that they've discovered the answers to those questions in the predatory. Publishers are happy to accept them as long as the authors pay the fee and they're published. There's some out there that would happily publish your paper saying that. Vaccines Cause Autism or that. There's no global warming occurring or that Nuclear power is is going to destroy everybody. A bread causes cancer. Anything you want to write you can write it and they'll publish as long as you. Pay The fee David. Maui day that like fake news Danz and Peterson's and clinician and now struggling to distinguish fact from fiction in predatory publications and he wants a Global Observatory that up to scrutinize they practices the problem. Is that many of these predatory predatory journals they are now making their way into Trusted sources over example for many researchers clinicians wins patients. They may look a pubmed product brother National Library Medicine. The United States and big data of pipers a huge database. And and what we see is that they're getting infiltrated with articles from predatory journals that are funded by esteemed institutions funding institutions such as the National Institutes of health. And what is the patient to do. What's a clinician to do? Will these people make decisions based on on on that sort of evidence and I think that that's an incredibly problematic. Jeffrey beal believed mcteer. National will survive despite the recent you with federal fifty million dollar court ruling against them but will die. From NATO's of publishes of Predatory Janelle. I don't see the problem going away. In fact. In some a lot of countries the open access advocates have been successful. Salaam getting governments to pass laws requiring federally funded work to be published in open access journals. So they're they're in a when the predatory publishers here about these laws they are ecstatic about them because it helps them. Because certain percentage of the people are going to be publishing in in the predatory journals whether by mistake or or intentionally in they will be the market the market is there and it's encoded in law now increasingly so they had a we stop the open access movement. which many as a positive thing you don't from being infiltrated by predatory publishes? I don't know a way to stop them. Publishers have freedom of the press. And there's really no laws. They're not breaking any laws in most cases unless they engage in identity theft or other things like that but for the most part they're they're completely sanctioned by by governments because of freedom of the press. Uh John I think we're GONNA have to reinvent how we do things this old fashioned way of submitting a paper and having some mysterious peer review do that you know no one ever sees happened behind a curtain and results in yes or no I think we may have to really put some effort into alternative models and they do exist. I it's just that that's a big culture change. You could make transparent for example you could have the review part of the record of the paper and it's really embarrassing harassing. It's scary for most scientists to think of a world. That's the norm. So there's a lot of resistance. They're out Bentley. If it's on to open up that whole peer reviewed pride it can impact David Crowds. That's one way or another would be you have some kind of Global Auditing System. Where you know someone like me not doing a sting operation like I did just continuously rolling along to find out if you're keeping your word of doing period view? That's expensive and unlikely unlikely to happen because everyone has to agree to do it. Well income since Proud to he that it's not happening at all and that anyone everyone pretty much anyone could establish a scientific journal put it online make it look legit dot making money. Oh Yeah you and I could make a journal right now. I can and fifteen minutes. What wordpress site and attach your bank account to it? I mean reckon fancy name what should we kill. Trillion Trillion Alien Journal of Melbourne Melbourne Frisco Journal of where we can work on that the John Bohannon Geoffrey Beale and David Moa joining me today and thank you for your thank to co produce. The Jane Lee Talk to me on twitter at Natasha. Hash Mitchell or email me that the friction website and I'm back with old brand new show for twenty twenty. Make tweak gene shared the podcasting getting touch by. You've been listening to an A._B._C.. podcast discover more great A._B._C.. podcasts live radio and exclusives on the A._B._C. Listen APP.
TOP 12 Pack of 2019 Chad Cook & the Manip that brings you back from death
"Jack Cook is a leader in the field and PT before he went to CSM this year. He gave us a little preview. What he'd be talking about? Here's a spoiler alert in case you weren't there. It was about a paper about a spinal manipulation that brought someone back from the dead that will now. You gotTA listen to see how this thing works or will doesn't Chad making the top twelve of twenty. Nineteen here on podcast. Yes Oh it's so full of garbage. It's really hard to describe it. Without somebody. Saying he's he's pulling langer late two clinical prediction rules. He centralized it. Low Fear Avoidance Multiple Civilisations. I mean we made up all this Baloney Loni oswestry hundred up and goes infinite times because he couldn't get out of the chair. He was unresponsive. During patient. History silliness throughout the whole thing. It has manipulation only one manipulation was needed but it would need to be repeated two hundred fifty times which is ridiculous at manipulation. One hundred seventy six. He started to see major changes in his self reported disability quality of life and then he came back to life. That is Chad Cook Duke University. Physical Therapy repeat chair talking about a paper that he and two other submitted for publication on Purpose Predatory Journal. Yeah it's pretty awesome shadowy that'll be having a presentation at C. S. M. This year in Washington. DC talking about the dark side of pubmed and highlighting the dangers of predatory journals on the profession of physical therapist Arabic. We get into more of that in this episode brought to you by Owens recovery signs single source for PT Looking for a certification on personalized blood flow restriction rehabilitation training training and the equipment. You need to apply. Johnny Owens guys have this thing covered and their own podcast now on I tunes the Recovery Science podcast find out more information mation about Johnny and getting certified via far at Owens Recovery Science Dot com broadcasting to physical therapists around the world. This is this is the a PT podcast play introduced me to introduce you to. Here's your host physical therapist Jimmy Mackay Best Conversations. Sion's happened at happy hour. Welcome to ours WanNa let you know we are on social media at PT Pint calf. That's on twitter. INSTAGRAM and facebook. And as always if you WANNA leave an honest review on itunes or on spotify or who will podcast. We appreciate that to bring back No Stranger to the show and a member of the elite club. The top twelve over twenty eighteen most downloaded episodes from last year chat cooking. Shed Cook Welcome to the show. Hey it's great to be back and I'm I am honored. I didn't know I was one of the top. Everybody does a top ten list right. We do the top twelve because there's twelve ounces in a beers we try to keep that. That's why we do the top twelve twelve appreciate you taking some time out last time we had you on the show. We were talking about Your Med bridge. Course and really making sure clinicians practicing could still. We'll navigate evidence based practice and learn how to do that long after you've left PT programs and having you back on the show because you're you're going one step further and you're GonNa do it live live at CSM. Of course we're going to converge on the nation's capital coming up in just a few weeks the twenty third twenty four twenty fifth in January. And you've got a presentation with Laurie. Michener of Rico's e and Julie Tilson the title. The dark side of pubmed predatory journals. It makes me think of like the star one of the Star Wars theme as you guys walk into the room and just started out there. You can use that. It's in the section on research. If you WANNA check it out Thursday January twenty eight. Am to ten am in room. One fifty nine A. and B.. This looks like it'll it'll spark some fun in some research where this idea come from but as you probably know we're really struggling with a lot of predatory journals I think were close to eight to ten thousand what I've read recently and it's gotten to the point now where we're really struggling to understand. We're reading real evidence or if it's fake evidence or somewhere somewhere in between it used to be a lot clear it certainly not clear now and what we want to try to do at CSM as give people an idea had navigate that quagmire of evidence Ed's eight to ten thousand journals or articles journal. That's crazy. I saw a recent figure that showed that one third of all journals now of all journals are predatory journals. I think I know what a predatory journal is. But let's let's step back and go real real macro. How would you describe a predatory journal? What would make something qualify to be labeled as that it has no legitimate peer review process? That's the most compelling piece to it there there isn't anybody evaluating. Are you waiting. The strength of the science at the end of the peer review process it. It just doesn't exist. A second piece to that is a goes into a dark hole an abyss. Yes and if it's good information it never actually gets out to the public. They put it on their website. It's impossible to find. It rarely gets on pubmed. pubmed used to be a nice way to discriminate between quality work. Not but not anymore. Those are two ways to really understand it straight off the bat. What's the reason for their existence? You know with ah third of all journals. That's that's a lot money. Yeah so if you think of this. At an average predatory journal only charges about four hundred dollars per publication. And and you would think that's very much but if you look at where these are actually housed from Nigeria India in. Let's say they publish any particular journal. Thirty thirty papers a year. They don't make a lot of money a little over twelve thousand dollars. But that's actually more than the average individual banks and if you puff at eight hundred titles titles are eight hundred journals within a particular company and there's actually big money and predatory publishing okay all right well that make the economics of it. Why are individuals vigils submitting to predatory journals? They not know or do they need to get something published. It's all for starters are a lot of people who actually don't know and it isn't just junior faculty are new researchers that get duped into this it's actually seasoned researchers because sometimes it's really difficult to determine if it's a predatory external are not the sounds of the titles of the journal sound similar to others. That's one of the reasons people get duped other people absolutely no and they still published in them Anyway because they don't want to go through the strict route of a legitimate journal. That's a real problem because it's starting to affect academics promotion tenure and also Source Amnesia bias. which you have a difficult time sorting information that you've heard in the past whether it was real or not that term? That was really really really all over the place in twenty eighteen that fake news. Now we're starting to get fake research. Yeah and having lived one recently and we talked about this that we're we're playing around with the. I wanted to see how easy it was to. Actually publish a predatory journal so my colleagues Josh Cleland Call Me Gin and I wrote a fake paper about bringing. Winging somebody back from death had been dead for five years. When did repeated manipulations? The paper was so full of errors and silliness. It was probably a hole. Let's rewind I want to go to the back to this story because this is this is one that that's going to be told in the hallways at CSM furlong time. What made you guys were you? Were you sitting around and hopefully beer drink was involved when you said. Hey you know we should do and that. which is the beginning of anything? Hopefully one of you said hey hang on hold my beer and started taping but how how did this come about when you said. Let's let's see what ridiculous stuff we can actually get published. It was crazy. Josh Cleland's idea is a master generating crazy. I did but actually not following through on these dumb enough to agrees to do them. I love the story. I want you to stick around and here all the land. Mines that Chedda. Josh and Paul put in this paper and then wound up getting published in the Predatory Journal. Just wait till you hear the ridiculous stuff. They included in the patient description. And what they were doing and then what happened. Came back to life. Can't say thanks enough enough to our sponsors at Arias Medical Group. They are the leaders in travel physical therapy staffing quite simply they find physical therapists jobs. Do what you WanNa do where you want to do it. I'm talking about placements in all fifty states Just take a look get on a phone call with one of their recruiters. Yeah Arias areas. Is the expert in travel. Physical therapy a U. R. E.. US MEDICAL DOT com. That's Arias Medical Group A U. R. E. US medical dot COM com our home on the Internet by CAST DOT COM created by build build. PD provides marketing services services specifically for private practice PT's website development and hosted inviting content marketing solutions PT clinics across the country scene with PT. Can Do for you today. Dot Com. We're back let's get back to the show. Were you sitting around. Hopefully a beer or a drink was involved when you said. Hey you know we should do. and which is the beginning of of anything. Hopefully one of you said. Hey Hang on hold my beer and started typing. But how how did this thing come about when you said. Let's let's see what ridiculous stuff we can actually get published. It was crazy. Josh Cleland's idea is a mask. You're generating crazy ideas but actually not following through these so the politics were dumb enough. I have to agree to do it with them. So you get the emails overnight because they come from usually Africa the Middle East India new wakeup in your email box if she had thirty to forty requests to submit a paper. Josh publishes a lot. He has well over two hundred legitimate publication so he gets about thirty to forty these day so he contacted acted all and I by email and said hey. I'm so sick of this crazy paper and I had a gap in my schedule so I started writing. Sent it to those guys they added. They're beautiful remarks to end. The we submitted it to the first request we had and it was published. So crazy joshes the impetus behind us so give if people that the nuts and bolts. What are the? What did the patient look like dead for five years repeated spinal manipulations and then poof? Like how would you describe it if you were going to present this as a legitimate intimate paper. Yeah so it's it's so full of garbage that it's really hard to describe it without somebody saying no. He's he's pulling our leg dead. Five years he met two clinical prediction rules. He centralized allies it. Low fear avoidance multiple subway stations. I mean we made up all this Baloney in a Oswestry of one hundred timed up and go the incident time. I'm because he couldn't get out of the chair. He was unresponsive. During the patient history silliness throughout the whole thing. We decided that a manipulation of only in one manipulation was needed but it would need to be repeated two hundred fifty times which is ridiculous at manipulation. One hundred seventy six. He started to see major changes his in his self reported disability quality of life and then he came back to life. Oh Man I gotta wipe my eyes right now. I'm tearing up a little bit. I mean it's just you riddled riddled with landmines. Anybody who who knew any of these words would say this. I mean it wasn't just one thing or a piece of data or data set this with this thing was stacked act completely stacked end so stacked we had a lawyer. Look at it to make sure that we weren't going to get in trouble. The lawyer wrote wrote back to US instead. This is the funniest thank I've ever read the lawyer sorted out. There's no way if this American we let it let ride so boom you guys get the email you put put together landmine ridden paper patient survives. Fantastic how long did it go from writing to submission to publication less than two weeks weeks that in fact we sent an email because the first thing they did is once they receive the The manuscript submission by email by anyway. They said we're GONNA need you to agree to pay four hundred and forty dollars. I wrote back and said no I. I don't agree to pay. That didn't hear from him and the next thing I know it was a complete copy edited. Final accepted publication. That they sent to me. That never requested the money again. I even emailed them as a courtesy and said hey was a fake paper. Probably WanNa pull it off your website. Nope they offered me a an editorial position after I sent him. You got a job. Yes wow even better so would love to break some news here. Are you going to be taking the position with that journal. No I politely declined. I think like my standards are a little too strict for that journal. What was the name of the Journal just because now I'm curious it was the archives of Women's health are something like that and that's another thing? Ah Our patient was male. Had nothing to do with the focus of the Journal. They were just looking for anything. But but now they're starting to use words that as you mentioned earlier ear which are difficult to sort out the archives of archives right there it sounds like it's legitimate true. That what they do is they target big-name journals they tweak the words a little bit so the an unassuming individual will think that they're actually dealing with that particular journal and we started going out for just pure math as you mentioned engine. Most of these things are in the lower income areas and email cost nothing. So if you send a thousand emails. You've you've likely copied and pasted an ask request and you're you're sitting there for a couple of hours you know. It's it's hard to blame the telemarketers when people are still ordering stuff when they pick up the phone so that's where we come back to full circle the dark side of pubmed and Predator journals. Talk that you're going to be given at. CSM Thursday January twenty fourth eight am and that's going to be in room. One fifty nine A and B You're going to be there with Lori. Michener Frederico Posey Julie Tilson let us know what we can learn there. What are we gonNA walk out of there knowing how to do? But you know you can get a blacklist and this is what Jeff reveals lists used to be in that would be a list of all the journals and all the predatory journals end the we've really strayed away from that because they're proliferating so quickly that it's almost impossible. I would've stay on top of that so we will be talking about white listing. What do you look for in a proper journal? Certainly one of the things. I'm GonNa talk about how it's impacted academia Daimyo at how sleazy academicians are actually using Predatory publishing the pad their CB's to get promoted and to get tenure and a a lot of universities are really struggling with this especially smaller universities. That really require a lot of teaching from their Field that this is their only way of going. We're going to talk a lot about the history of predatory publishing. We'll talk a little bit about some of the things that have happened including our particular thing that we did for fun but it has really done a nice job of pointing out how easy it is published in this particular area and we'll talk a little bit about fake news our Source Amnesia. And how overtime what you read aide Legitimate Journal and what you rate allows the Journal tends to have the same level of creative so we're trying to say our profession is evidence based and with the proliferation of predatory journals and Fash tag fake research. It's going to undermine what the thing that we're trying to build and unfortunately it is difficult and for good the reason to produce quality research and when it's out there you want to be able to find it. It looks like on a lot of different sides of the coin. Academics publishing people being duped into it or using it on purpose maliciously. It looks like is a giant giant problem as you mentioned only getting bigger. I am astounded by the number eight to ten thousand. But as you mentioned they're they're easy to create because they're made of air easy to get a deal I number and pretend you have a journal it's astounding just four or five years ago. It was six hundred and quickly huge problem. Anything else that you're looking forward to a 'em how do you pick what you what you go and you spend your time on in in terms of Presentations what do you look for. How do you pick so like you mostly do networking and you end up with so many people your schedule the me? It's it's the perfect time to do that because everybody is there. I like to target courses that it's a rare chance to actually see somebody speak so whether that's an overseas person that comes in or committee. It's a topic that I I don't normally see an end. Then I show up about forty five minutes before it actually starts to make sure that I can get that is hand because if you think it's interesting chances are with last last. CSM NEW ORLEANS. Seventeen thousand plus some of those rooms could get big and they can get overflowed. And if you're GONNA if there's something that you want really WanNa see and we suggest it's this often get there early as you as you just mentioned and yeah why first couple. CSM's do interviews out there. I'd reach out to people and they'd give me these these windows of time that were super small and I thought I was getting blown off and then go to. CSM's and you realize it might be a couple days but it's there. There are very few opportunities to actually do stuff because there are so many people when you want to be able to say hi in person agreed and the evening functions to are as strong as the day functions. There's very little sleep in that three four day period I say. CSM's four days of longest eight days in my life. Because you need a vacation when you get back from it. It feels like it's and it's a weekend of Vegas right if you're in a room or the Expo Hall. No windows no clocks. It feels like it's always daytime. I'm assuming the I cannot confirm or deny that they're pumping oxygen into the room to keep us awake. I don't know it could be. That's a good so again Dan. The dark side of pubmed predatory journals is going to be Thursday January. Twenty four eight to ten with Chad Cook Lori Michener for Rico Posey and Julie Early Tilson that's going to be in one fifty nine am be. I will say download the abt a APP because sometimes rooms change and they will be updated on the APP faster faster than the website rule looking forward to this. I think this is important and only going to get bigger as you mentioned being six hundred five years ago and now we're close it on ten K.. Hey this is something that we definitely need to put some effort into to make sure our profession doesn't get eroded parting shot last thing we do on the show. This is the parting shots. Take the parting. Shot is brought to you by rock tate. They're more than just a tape company. There are movement company. Rock tape helps athletes at every level. Go stronger longer. Her with the best kinesiology tape. Cutting education and fitness support products. Raw tape wants people to move more and move better. Find Them Online at rock tape dot com uh-huh slash medical. How about we do? The antithesis of Predatory Journal about the jam series have you you may have seen our opioid taper. That came out again suggests a the early access to PT Exposure. Just exposure doesn't even mean good care but just care by e t actually decreases downstream USA. Both few ice and that paper came out on Friday and Jemma Open. Hope everybody gets a chance to read that. We're starting to see enough information to suggest that early access. Access to PT really changes that healthcare utilization process and good way last question Zion Williams. Can she in fact jump over the backboard. It looks like he can clear the backboard. You probably saw him hit his head on the on the backboard it's insane. I can't believe the guy he is. He is a big big man. He's alive at a chance HE S. I saw them play eastern Michigan so I saw him in person. He's a beast. I know he's only here for one year but we're sure glad we got looking forward to uh to see and some more of that. Good Luck in the dance with Zion. He's a he's a big dance partner to have on your team doctor. Jack Cook from Duke University looking forward to seeing you at CSM. Thanks for taking the time not done with us. Hey thanks again for all of what you do and giving us the boys the PT podcast is a product of P podcast LLC it is hosted and produced by hi PT podcast CEO Jim McKay and Cbo Sky Donovan from Marymount University we talk pt drink beer and recorded this has been another poor four from the PT PODCAST PD. PODCAST is intended for educational purposes. Only no clinical decision making should be based solely on one source law care is taken to ensure accuracy factual errors can be present hasn't more on the show. PT PODCASTS DOT COM. All right sure they brought to you by the Brooks Institute of Higher Learning in Innovator and providing advanced post professional education education brooks. IHL offering continuing education courses in numerous specialty area six residency programs and fellowship as well as challenging but rewarding wording internships the H. L. Specializes in the translation of information from evidence to patient management. Learn what they can do for you to support your professional development at Brooks I._H._L. Dot Org.
12 March 2020: An ancient bird trapped in amber, and life beneath the ocean floor
"Live sound so simply no idea but now the data's finally these not only refreshing but at some level astounding nature. Welcome back to the nature podcast. This week a tiny h bird trapped in amber and evidence of life far beneath the ocean floor on Nikko and Shamanee Bundle. I opened the show. It's another story for which we definitely be playing the drastic punk themed June if we could get a rights. That's why is time to return to the age of dinosaurs once again. Imagine a small lump of amber held up to the light so that seems to glow orange and trapped within a tiny perfectly preserved. Bird School Jingmei O'Connor is very excited about her latest find and when I first saw this specimen I was completely blown away I was going around showing it to everyone like look at this. It's so cool and with good reason. The tiny buds scull encased in amber is unique and mysterious. It's so weird. It has this weird combination and morphology that makes it really difficult to understand how it's related to other birds What it was doing like what was it college. Jingmei is a paleontologist at the Chinese Academy of Sciences in Beijing. She's what on a number of recent specimens of tiny animals. The got trapped inside sticky tree. Resin these creatures have been perfectly preserved inside the solidified material ever since the time of the dinosaurs when you have an animal preserved in amber. It looks like it just died yesterday. All soft tissue in place trapped in this little window into an ancient time this most recent specimen is a skull only seven point one millimeters long. It's around the size of the skull of a Bee hummingbird the smallest living bird species. It's encased in amber that formed ninety nine million years ago in the Cretaceous period of what is now Myanmar and it's been identified as a new species named awkward and Travis Congre Jingmen her colleagues put the lump of amber into a cat scanner to get a detailed view of the skull inside it. There's three things about this little specimen that stand out one of his is of course its size. It's just so tiny but then it has all these teeth. That's the second thing that's really weird. So you have something. That's really tiny but it's clearly also a Predator was just just kind of a little bit counterintuitive and it also has this huge I but then if you about it some of the birds with the best visual abilities alive today are predatory birds like owls or falcons. However these predatory birds alive today all there is face Ford which gives them binocular vision which is way better if you're hunting for prey but this bird had its is facing to the side so it had zero binocular vision meaning that the two is didn't overlap with each other so there's nothing alive that has is like that so we have no idea really how this bird might have lived this tiny two featured lived in the age of dinosaurs pot of diverse ecosystem that included huge long necked. Zora pods carnivorous theropods and flying. Tara sales but while a lot is known about the largest creatures of this period thanks to huge fossil bones details on the creatures filling the smallest ecological niches a scarce. This tiny organisms can only be preserved in amber. You know even in other places where you have exceptional preservation. Small things might have existed. But we don't have any evidence of it so if it wasn't for amber we wouldn't know about this minute sauna at all specimens preserved in amber. Like this help fill in ecological blanks. That also undeniably beautiful. But it more than that to impress Henry. G Henry is a senior editor here at nature and the person that papers on this kind of research. Goto I when the paper on my desk I have to say I felt a little tired because I get to see quite a lot of papers reporting all sorts of interesting things preserved in amber but then I had to look at it and to how something preserved that actually is unexpected to really make you sit up. That's actually quite rare various features. Show that this species was a very primitive member of the group. We now call birds. Though back in the Cretaceous. They would just another kind of dinosaur. I'm what Henry Find particularly interesting about. This animal is. It's extremely small size. Compared to other birds and dinosaurs from that time we knew that dinosaurs on the bird. Line as it were. Were getting quite small but this is absolutely extreme and like nothing we had ever seen before. Nobody had any idea that dinosaurs were that small. That early what he does his underscore the fact that the dinosaurs really were dominant in the ecosystem. They really filled over holes that are now filled by mammals reptiles and of course birds so if there was an ecological niche to fill. You can bet there'd be some dinosaur that would fill it so there were dinosaurs biggest boxes and they were dinosaurs. A small smaller than hummingbirds. Ombu provides an amazing window into these tiny ecological niches but paleontologists need to be careful when looking to amber for answers amber from Myanmar is mined commercially and there have been concerns. Raised about the ethics Off The mining operations both in relation to the conditions in which its mind and the activities that selling amber goes to fund so we have off to the authors to provide a statement saying that fossil was obtained about board as it were and That something that I think we would do. For most amber fossils with more and more fossils being found in amber particularly in Myanmar. This is something that will be an ongoing concern. Jingmei is still excited about what the next set of amber fossil's will reveal right now. We're only in the very beginning of the study of these specimens of what information we can glean from this material. But I'm hoping in the next ten years that we're going to develop techniques that are going to allow us to access the biochemistry of the soft tissues that are preserved in there to be able to look for Milan's and the feathers in order to determine color but also I actually am sitting on quite a few amazing specimens that haven't had time to study it but there's a lot of very cool things that we still have on the back burner. That will be studying very soon. So stay tuned. There's a lot more cool stuff out there. That was Jingmei O'Connor of the Chinese Academy of Sciences and Henry G senior editor Herod Nature. You can find the paper online now. Nature Dot Com. But if you want a three hundred and sixty degree view of the specimen and to him more from Jimmy head over to YouTube dot com slash nature video channel. Where we've got a short film exploring the new. Find coming up in the new show. We'll talk about a problem of pay review in predatory journals right now though it's time for the search highlights for this week but done folks imagine ancient norse Viking. Are you picturing an intrepid explorer a fearsome warrior a skilled seamen while you can probably add another feature at Yeoman's limit a terrible toothache? A team of dentists and ancient historians have investigated the prevalence of dental cavities in the remains of eighteen individuals buried in attempts century. Graveyard on the Swedish island of Gotland. They found that fourteen was suffering from the signs of tooth decay and several had lost whole tif before they died. The researchers hope that this study can offer some new insight into Viking life on the island where they think that a diet rich in sugary foods like berries fruit or the honey based alcoholic drink. Mead might be calls for the high number of penalties however despite the lack of modern dentistry the team founded the vikings had on average fewer cavities than modern humans. Sink your teeth into not research. At International Journal of Osteo Archaeology. Every year one point three million seventy would-be St- migrate through tomorrow. River Basin in Kenya and Tanzania. Thousands drowned trying to cross the river. I'm now researchers have lent HAL lab bones go into feed one of the world's most famous ecosystems scientists from the University of Florida in the US staked bags a fresh bones. Derivative had a measured the bones nutrients before an awful two hundred sixteen days in the water. They found that nitrogen quickly leached out of the binds whereas phosphorus was released much more slowly into the environment. These nutrients fed sticky collections of bacteria could biofilms that grew in the bones and these biofilms in turn Fed. Fish and other river reaches read that research in full at frontiers in ecology and evolution. The cliche goes that we know more about the surface of the moon. We do about the bottom of the oceans and those murky debts are where we're headed. Pau next story on this week's podcast. Despite being an inhospitable environment researchers have found whole communities of micro organisms living in the often incredibly thick layer of sediment at the bottom of the F. Oceans microbes have even been found in the left rock beneath the so-called OPA oceanic crust. But what about the lay of rock below that the lower ozanich Christ in the paper in this week's nature a team of researchers have taken to the waves to look for life hundreds of meters below the bottom of the sea. One of these searches is genie edgecomb from the woods hole oceanographic institution in the US. That you've been Thompson gave coal to talk about her search and he began by asking her what was known about microbes. In the lower oceanic crust a previous team had sampled the lower cross in a completely different location and they had used. Dna based approaches to recover the signatures of microbes from that site. And so we thought that there was a pretty good likelihood that we would find more evidence for a micro bill activities and that we would be able to culture microbes from the lower crust. And we'll sort of depths where you looking at in this study. We were on a ship in the Indian Ocean at a site that's east of Madagascar and this site is called Atlantis Bank. There was only about seven hundred meters of water above the seafloor because the lower ocean crossed is exposed directly at the sea floor at this spot due to plate tectonics which makes it easier for the drill ship to drill further into the lower crust. We drilled to about seven hundred and eighty meters below the seafloor. So we're looking at around fifteen hundred meters steps looking for specifically in these drills samples from the lower crust well as drill advanced and as the samples came up to the ship. We selected samples from each ten meter depth fraction that showed the most evidence of rockwater interactions and the most evidence of fractures and veins in the rocks because we posited that if micro organisms are to be found there we'd most likely encounter them in regions. Where fluids could pass through the rocks that could deliver much needed nutrients to that realm against the sixty four thousand dollar question. How how deep did you find evidence of live underneath the sea floor the deepest sample that we have analyzed as from about seven hundred and fifty meters into the lower crust and we found evidence of active microorganisms there? And how did you show these microbes were active for each of our samples? We took material and we extracted different types of biomarkers for instance lifted biomarkers which are indicative of viable intact cells. We Extracted Messenger or a which tells us that. The cells at least we're taking the first steps towards protein synthesis and we cultured bacteria and microbial fungi from our samples. That was my next question. What did these results show? What sort of things did you find? The analyses of the bacterial and Richmond's are still in progress. But we have established a collection of around a two hundred unique fungal isolates and these are really fascinating to us because we have recovered fungi from deep subsurface sediments in previous studies. So it's exciting to us to find them. Also in the lower ocean crossed. How will these microorganisms surviving? Then that's at such depths. The ones that are are probably very resourceful. At recycling organic carbon they are expressing genes involved in the metabolism of amino acids and of Lipids. So they're basically eating the cells of their dead neighbors and they're able to recycle pools of of organic carbon within their own self. They also appear to be able to store carbon in the form of a molecule called Poly Hydroxy alfano eight. This is only been demonstrated using laboratory cultures today. So were you surprised. Delighted to find organisms at this depth. I was more delighted than surprised because I thought that We would find living organisms and I just hoped that we would drill through zones where there was fracturing and fluid flow and. We were lucky that we did. We'll see if we can zoom out a bit and take your expedition as a whole. What's it like to be a microbiologist? On the ocean waves. These are three months expeditions and so the ship works twenty four hours a day. The Science Party is divided into two shifts. And so there's always a microbiologist processing sample twenty four seven I mean. Is that hard to do? I mean I been maybe a ferry or something that my family holiday and I mean. I don't really have my sea legs and you know if if my pet was shaking around in underneath me. That might make things difficult. I mean what is it like Tony? Do Microbiology lab is sort of shifting from scientists signed that joining is is very stable so on on nine tenths of the days. This is not a problem. You know you get your sea legs fairly quickly and you get into your sleep and work routine You show up for work you you have your your breakfast at whatever hour that is and and start working in the lab. You spend a lot of time. Running up to the deck where the cores are brought onto the ship and then running down to the micro biology lab to process the samples before the next one comes up on deck. You've said something that I need to pick you up nine tenths of the time. This is no problem which suggests to me that there's something else going on in the one tenth of time Ginny. Well what would you explain that to be? The the weather is is Is Not always perfect and we do encounter rough weather sometimes. We sailed through a few fairly significant storms in the Indian Ocean on our way to the sampling site. So that that that was pretty exciting and people spend a lot of time Sleeping in their bunks. Are you are? You pleased to be going back to dry land lab when when you have to analyze these samples Yeah I think by the end of three months everyone you know. Even though it's wonderful interacting with the other scientists in the Science Party by the end of three months everybody's ready to go home. That was ginny edge. Talking with Benjamin Thompson you can read have Papa- Nature Dot Com fung show. It's time for the new show and I'm joined in the studio Bundy. She gained nature. Gop Bureau chief and Richard a northern features editor nature. High both have high. So I ve is of course time to talk about corona vows again and the usual caveat applies this is recorded on a Tuesday morning and things may have changed quite a bit since we've let the studio so Nisha since you down hit last week. What's changed rather a lot has changed. I think the whole tenor of this outbreak seems to be on the kind of inflection point rule that might just be because it seems that it's coming closer to home for many of us in Europe and in the United States in the pulse week. Has it been growing enormously? Var seems to have reached more than one hundred countries around the world on. We've now topped one. Hundred thousand cases worldwide deaths are at around four thousand but from our perspective. We have continued to cook on the science. And we've been looking at things including the role of children in the outbreak which has been one of the major questions. The researchers have been trying to answer. So what do we know about this then? It seems that children don't seem to become as infected all. They don't seem to show symptoms as much. That's based on either quite quick analyses or anecdotal evidence. What we've seen this week is an analysis out of Shanzen in China and it's really detailed analysis on the spread of the virus on it shows that children are just as likely to be infected with the bars. Adults are and so that sounds quite concerning. Yeah the reason that children is interesting is that we knew from other viruses like flu. That they seem to be very important links in these transmission chains and not really children are gala every day at school say research on. This question is something. That's quite important on. Could influence these measures social distancing measures. These are the things that many governments around the world all talking about at the moment whether to close schools for long periods of time Italy. The whole country has gone on lockdown. As of this week. Say That's something that's happened there but many other nations will also be considering whether to put in place these measures so it's quite crucial that there is research on this question of what role children might play in this outbreak. So obviously things stepping up in a number of countries and to try and combat. This money is obviously important factor. What's being the financial response? That has been a large amount of money in the pulse week approved by the US government to fight creative. Iris the Congress approved about eight billion dollars the response. It's not quite clear. How much of that will be for research itself? And where will she sing All the pledges from governments and institutions around the world. Some of these more directed towards research the jogging vaccine efforts that are being funded by individual governments so as this outbreak escalates and it really now is escalating to become a global crisis governments and financial institutions pledging billions and billions of dollars ought of course caused to say that what has been promised already isn't enough on one analysis by Group. Co convened by the world. Health is on the world. Bank group said that at least eight billion more is needed to address the most pressing threats of this outbreak. On one of the ways this money will be spent in Watson. Researchers doing is turning towards animal models. What can you tell me about this? Yeah this is another question that we have been looking at this week and this is not on the basic research side rather than the public health response but this is how researchers are investigating the virus in the lab on the natural thing to do is to study the course of this infection in various different animal models on these include mice and primates on ferrets for this particular disease of these models. Being able to tell US blissful so we're getting some very initial findings from these studies which have just altered infecting animals with the virus that causes the disease. One of the interesting things that researchers have seen is that faith in mice and monkeys. The virus seems to cause quite a mild illness hasn't yet replicated severe illness that we have seen in money people in many of the people who go on to die but nonetheless. It's interesting to see from these mauled illnesses in these animals that this replicates quite similarly what happens in humans that are signs of pneumonia and monkeys as we have seen in humans On the research is doing this work that they can use these models to start testing preliminary drug candidates and vaccines but they also say they will have to start developing different animal models that more closely replicate. These severe illnesses that we see in people were listeners as always go to the website national com slash news for all the latest on the corona virus outbreak. For a second story. Though we're looking at here review in predatory journals and Richard before we get into that what exactly is a predatory journal said predatory journals are journals that basically publish any manuscript you send them because they want to collect the author fees and they don't provide quality checks. They might provide long term archiving in other words. They'RE PREYING ON ACADEMIA. That's a very informal term and actually defining whether a journal is predatory or merely under source and low quality is extremely difficult. But the key thing is that the predatory Janis is usually quite deceptive or non transparent about what it's doing so as you say the no always conducting these quality check so it seemed almost surprising that that is an out of peer review is going on here. Apparently there is and this story is about hundreds of academics who say that they are doing pay reviews for predatory journals and this was discovered by people looking at a website coupons where scientists composed records of their peer review and this may sound surprising because y with the Predatory Journal. Even ask for purview in the first place well one suggestion is that this might be kind of figleaf. They're kind of doing it to pretend they're during review another suggestion is that perhaps these predatory journals where reviews taking place might be mis classified and here we get into the question of what is such a journal. This study looked journals. Called Predatory on a blacklist made by firm called Kabul's and cowbells says that it caused journals predatory for holistic deceptive practices like not being transparent about who the editors things like that so just possible that a journal. Could doing peer review? But still be cold predatory on this list and in fact ten percents at least of the journals on this list do appear to be doing peer review according to what's being said on his website at least so what might be the harm than in these journals conducting this or pay review. Well the potential harm is really a huge waste of time for the scientists who are presumably. Doing these reviews now. It should be said that we very much about what's going on here because these reviews ruled totted up by an algorithm that was working off this list of journals looking at the website and counting up our their reviews being claimed for these journals. But the study doesn't talk about which journals they are. It doesn't talk about who the individuals are so we don't know for sure the contents of the reviews or whether the individuals spent much time on the Trevi's or even whether the reviews happened all day. Pablo says it does verify that claimed vs did actually happen usually asking for emails from authors or from editors now I actually looked at the site and I actually emailed some of these people who said that they were doing reviews and I did get some replies. Back one researcher in Germany said yes I did review for a predatory journal and they completely ignored my review but then he said well you know that that does happen sometimes with established journals as well to be fair another person in Cambridge. Uk said. I thought I was going to improve the quality of the papers because I saw these papers not very good but again everything I said was ignored so now. I'm not going to do anymore. So there is a kind of question about all these academics being tricked or what actually was found about these academic was that many of them are inexperienced haven't published much younger and they are often from countries in Africa or the Middle East. According to the study so another suggestion is that these academics think that just by reviewing for as many titles as possible will bolster that academic credentials. Because you can point to your own a pair of hearing activity and say reviewed for loads of journals so until they actually look at the reviews themselves or they contact you academics. One by one. It's not entirely clear. What's going on but the Study Authors D say? This is a colossal waste of time and funders and institutes should tell people. Thank you think about not publishing in journals. Also think about not reviewing for them as well well listeners to read more about this head to Nashville com slash news. And that's where you find all the latest on corona virus as well so it's left is to thank both of my guests nation. Richard thank you both. Thanks thank you very much. And that's a wrap for another show but if you're interested to see as well as hear more about that tiny bud trapped number then. Don't forget to check out the video made by yours truly over at YouTube dot com slash nature video channel. I'm Shami Bundle on. I'm the cow. See you next time.
Podcast: COVID killed anti-GMO activism? Environmentalists split over glyphosate; Predatory journal Pokmon hoax
"Wash it somewhere sean. Hey everybody welcome to the science facts and fallacies podcast brought to you by the genetic literacy project. i'm your host cameron english and i'm your co host. Kevin fulda professor who cares about science communication. This is the weekly show where we discussed the biggest stories from the genetic literacy project to keep you informed about groundbreaking developments from the worlds of science and medicine and of course help you separate facts from fallacies as you read the headlines everybody welcome back to the show cameron and kevin. Here is always kevin. What's going on happy post thanksgiving. Yeah we're on the other side of that holiday and then now in the home stretch of twenty twenty and it's been really great to get good feedback about this podcast. It's been really never lucien and glad that we're doing this every week. So thanks for doing this. Hey man it is my pleasure and yeah it does feel good to see people listening to it and responding to it even sometimes disagreeing with us always exciting on the less. Yeah but it's another thing to give. Thanks for right just in the spirit of the holiday. That people are turning to avenues of scientific information. Like this to learn more about what's happening and i think that's really cool and with that. Let's jump in to some more science stories and keep people getting into science. So i up Biotechnology gave us a cova vaccine. Could that end the gm movement next glyphosate deadly poison or diversity. Protection tool environmentalists are split over the question surprisingly and finally and this may be the greatest headline ever written scourge of pay for play predatory journals american journal of biomedical science and research publishes on satire on kovic with bruce wayne quote from gotham forensics quarterly. So we're going to get into what all that means and what it means for the pure view process these days all these predatory journals so i step kevin. Is this vaccine going to blow up the anti gmo movement. Well according to the author. Alex barroso He's with american council on science. And help ya This is really putting a lot of people into a very precarious position because we've seen all of these organizations rally against genetic engineering and its use in agriculture and there's been so much aggressive attack on on the technology and the people who tell the truth about science well. It turns out that a lot of the organizations involved. Like one of my favorites. Us tk they're they're funded by organic consumers association and other groups that are really against modern technology and modern technology is not just the thing in crops it is now a thing that will likely and a global pandemic and so the genetic engineering used to create the new vaccines the actually all most of the new vaccines of this are on their Target a little bit. I mean these are on their radar and what i thought was really funny about all of this is that you've seen a shift in in the activists in the way in which they're going after the science and the scientists But with some new twists but it really does look like if people start to accept the vaccine and say inject me with this technology. It really does say a basic change in our attitude towards that technology. Okay so is the theory that people are just going to be so Enhanced if you will their lives are going to be so much better because of this technology that they're just not gonna care that like these groups like us rights and are just kind of fade off into oblivion. Well you see them retooling okay. They used to be the. They used to be the a nonprofit organization pursuing truth and transparency in america's food system and now they're pursuing truth and transparency in public health so their website is wiggling in order to keep the dollars coming in and making them look relevant They spent such a long time. Not being able to make much impact in genetic engineering You know. I mean it hasn't really slowed things much Maybe some influence in the court cases of glyphosate because they're one of their employees poses a independent journalist who you know that's a whole nother story Who who is involved in a lot of the cases heavily but the the basic ideas that these organizations try to shape public perception around agriculture and now are trying to do it around covid and they're they're promoting conspiracy theories they're promoting you know wild conspiracy theories and one of the things that are up to right now is how do you do the same thing. They did with agricultural sciences to kobe. Nineteen scientists and They're actually using foia and public records request to go after some of the lead scientists in the world who studies not a transfer viruses. You know it's it's interesting to watch that unfold. Because you and i know that pattern really well is they launch one of these investigations in quotes and then they just pull out whatever. Relevant information helps them build their case. Are they really going to try the same thing they tried with people like you and get some kind of expose in in the times to to say look at how bad this fao guy is. I don't know who they're who they're going after the haven't looked but is that really what they're trying to do. Well i dug in on this a little bit so the person they're going after and you're right. The pattern is exactly the same of the targeted. Dr peter data zack. And dr peter does that is from echo health alliance. He is a very well recognized conservation. Biologists he leads key committees the national academies of science and medicine. He's had very highly cited papers. Three hundred different scientific papers. He's worked with The this is what's really interesting about this. He signed a thing in a paper record. Kind of a position paper with twenty seven other scientists back in february saying that all these conspiracy theories about kobe. Nineteen are crazy that the origin is not conspiratorial. It's not anything crazy. Looks like it came from a bat to person transmission. Us right to now. And they're conspiracy interests in their funders. They obtained records and emails from university of maryland. Communicating with dad's zak with one of the faculty at maryland and And they found out that dad sec. You're not gonna believe this. He got money from nih to study. Viruses that bastard. You can't believe a word. He says because his research was funded by the nih. And what's and this is. What's so funny about this. He they that they found out that he received an h. Grants which are all public records anyway. And he worked. With a var allergist in juan at the wuhan institute of allergy for fourteen years. This is dr. She's shengli and dr shizhong. Lee received the grants with dead zach to Get blood samples. Check feces check bat. Species they're not walking around san francisco looking on the sidewalk. Now they tell you know the the bats are much more discreet except for the cable is ones but anyway the bats were they. They're looking at blood. They're looking at feces to identify what the pandemic will be and they've been doing this for a very long time. And the funny part is is that President trump put the brakes on that funding. This year he said no more money going to this project. No more money going on and so it really puts us our. Tk in the same sleeping bag with the trump administration In in limiting the veracity of scientific claims it's really really rather interesting. So i'm willing to bet i'm going to go look into this more. 'cause you've picked my interest but i'm willing to bet that they're going to take some preliminary statements from other scientists in an email or something to make it look scandalous. Were they say. We can't rule out the possibility that this was developed in the lab. Because we just can't. That's not how science works. We have to investigate. Everything have to be open to new information. They're gonna take statements like that and then take them out of context and make it look like see you look at what they're saying behind closed doors. They know this could have been made in the lab at. They're hiding it from you. I'm willing to bet that this is the overall dynamic that this project is going to take. I think you're right because there's little hints of that already. They have something like four hundred three pages of rather boring but they do have a few statements that they were able to pull out where Where dads said. I don't want this to become politicized. Which is what a scientist would say but you know the but to the conspirators. See person they see that as some sort of Lack of transparency and So that's really what's happening here. It's really funny because it is that same trend they say. Oh well dad's because Is conflicted that he can't trust a word he says and and four other authors on that letter Were from aeko health alliance and they're calling for A lack of They're calling for us to reject conspiracies But their act and what it does is they're just trying to take away from the reputations and the weight in the gravity of the words of real scientists just like they did before. Okay so then. Back to alex's thesis are they actually going away are they just mutating and they're taking on a new project and they're trying to expand their horizons a little bit. Because the reason i ask is because i know we're both big fans of the taliban and one of the points he makes in his book is that you don't need a widespread support. All you need is a handful relative handful of dedicated people that want to move the ball forward and if everybody else is just going about their lives and they're not particularly interested in what you are then you can get. Your agenda moved forward because you don't have any opposition. What what do you think of that outlook on us. When it's your fulltime job to just 'cause Fear uncertainty and doubt. It's not so hard to do especially when you're talking about new technology and so i totally see that being the case of what could be happening in in this with us. Rtuk just Flying under the radar and pushing goofy conspiracy theories to try to shape the perception of what's going to happen with the the next generation of therapies for this pandemic around. Well let's monitor it and we will keep an eye on what's going on. Because i'm really curious to see how this evolves all right kevin so is glyphosate of deadly poison. Is it helping us preserve biodiversity. Yeah this is a really necessary article by graham read fern and it was written in the guardian a place which has written a lot of rather crackpot stuff on glyphosate stuff from erin brockovich that made claims that were just completely off off the radar not true But what's really interesting about about. Redfern's read ferns paper or his article is that he talks about the use of weed control as a tool of conservation. And you have invasive weeds all these Species that are threatening different ecosystems all over the world but particularly in his home country of australia and There's a lot of concerns that by taking away glyphosate. Which is what a lot of groups seek to do that. You're now opening up. The econ- the very sensitive ecosystems of australia to noxious weed invasion and no easy way to control and it's a really important Side of this argument that we really don't hear very often you know what's so interesting to me is that it really underscores that were in in life generally but in these with these agricultural issues. These aren't black or white. You know there. There's there's a spectrum if you will whatever decision you make is going to involve trade offs and it's it's ironic really because you have ostensibly environmental groups coming out against this weed killer and if anybody should be concerned about biodiversity them right so i. I don't know what to think of that. My cynical side says that they know that they don't care but at the same time maybe they just haven't thought through it the way You know someone more thoughtful commit like an ecologist would what do you think. Well i agree. And i think it's something that's even you know. This is a little bit tangential but they were building a big. They wanted to build a large solar farm right near my house here and they had a lot of pushback from environmental groups because it was going to be disrupting a natural area and also taking farmland out of agriculture and One of the compromises was. We'll let you do it if you don't use glyphosate and so this is really working very counter to their goal of protecting the environment. Because they think they're protecting it by limiting life sate. But now they're just gonna use a different herbicides. That'll have much much more impact and it's it it just goes to show how deep the roots of the fear campaigns have gone in really shaping. The environmentalists view a. What is a tool that can be used to promote environmental interests. They quotes an environmentalist. Her name's jan bremmer and it's an interesting story and it was great. 'cause they summarized all the evidence for why glyphosate probably doesn't cause cancer and then they quote this woman and she says but there's all these court cases and bears paying all this money. How can you ignore that evidence. And so i just wanna say as it has been said a million times already is that court. Cases aren't evidence. You can sue people for anything so just because you bring a claim to court. It doesn't mean you have a good case. And i think that gets obscured a lot in this discussion because people say oh well. They're suing this big company. It must be for good reason because big companies are bad as a result. We have all this evidence. And you don't have any just these claims and we've talked on this show about the fact that the case is really bunk. Frankly well the big problem with the guardian article is that it also by including jane bremmer statements. A- gives a sense of a false balance. Because here's somebody one of the things that she said is that glyphosate is leaving a toxic load in our ground. Water in river systems. And that's not true. And she's know she's advocate for hand weeding in over using chemical controls in meeting. My guess is that she has pulled weeds very much. You know i think people who Who spend a few hours out there. Go you know what the low toxicity spray. Maybe such a bad idea. But she said then she says. This is another quote. Glyphosate and other chemicals are poorly regulated because of the power of the petrochemical industry which is not a petrochemical for one and two. It's massively regulated the amount of of evaluation that stuff goes through by multiple regulatory agencies. All over the world you know it's every few years they tested again and when you go through even the australian agencies that have have looked at this have said there is there is no evidence that suggests that this is causing cancer at the level that used and they are directly in line with the epa. The european chemical agency health canada all the other international organisations reject the idea that this is carcinogenic except for one agency in one arm that does hazard based assessments in the. Who the irc. that says. It's a probable carcinogen in the same category as you know. Nightshift work in hairdressing and pickled vegetables. So it's a very Concerning problem because they've managed to vilify with management of invasive noxious weeds. Guys are ever having trouble sleeping. I encourage you to go to the epa website. Just look at the process to get a pesticide registration. You won't get through all of the requirements. 'cause there's thousands and thousands of pages you have to read through But just to underscore the point that. It's not easy to get a pesticide approved in the united states or for that matter australia and new zealand or europe especially europe So that's that's that's a joke. I don't know how she could say that. It's poorly regulated and the fact that the these companies do have influence at these agencies. I don't think anybody would deny that. But they have to have constant communication with these regulators because they can stamp their their product. Yes or no. You know what i'm saying. So it would be weird in other words if bayer didn't have contacts at the epa because they have work together that's necessary so so and double check that promise you go. Check that out at the epa website. Because it's it's a ridiculous process but you're exactly right you you have to know the target. You're trying to hit and they're in regulation is not just a very standard series of tests. It's always a very specific Relationship that happens around the testing of a compound. The article also ends with a guy named peter dixon who is a member of the australian association of butch alone. I said that wrong. Yes the australian association of bush re generators. Which i think i need to be a member of that. Just be cool to have. The t shirt insert joke here But but but basically he. He throws caution to the wind. He i shouldn't say that either. He says understandably that there are dozens of chemicals around your house that can kill you. And he's right. You know your window cleaner your oven cleaner. You know gasoline whatever and you just got to use it the right way and he says that on different areas conservation areas around sydney that have experienced some ecological damage that they've used herbicides. For years to knockback something called balloon vine and trad and so balloon vine if you ever wonder we're balloons came from is invasive in australia and he says you just can't do it with mechanical methods and you have to keep the weeds at bay with the ugh life estate. Because if you do it enough and you keep knocking them back and you keep knocking back then. The plants that belong there can fill the gap and so it's it's a necessary tool for conservation and ecology. Okay so pok. Mon cova monster. Bruce wayne is apparently a now Predatory publishing so this article came from. The scientist was by Shalom and he uses a pen. Name to publish articles in predatory journals. Now just for what it's worth predatory journals are these journals that are it's he describes it basically very expensive blogs they are They sound like they're they're credible they have somebody contact you by email and say a deer esteemed dr full at my friends. Don't even call me esteemed and they'll say you know we. So much want to publish your your outstanding science work in the annals of gynecology and obstetrics and i get these all the time and and one of them even called a gynecological ecology get. Gosh that must be a wreck. This journal this journal sends. They asked me for solicitations and and Getting back to the story here. So that's predatory journals it really. They claim to be these. These very Internet like the the the Internationally international publishing houses. That are really just. Stay in apartment outside of dc or sixty four dollars a month storage unit. Norcross georgia seriously. They are or or an empty lot in suburban chicago. They have an address And they usually just one person who serves as an editor who agrees to publish your stuff if you pay him the money now see him or her. But i'm guessing this is mostly guys. But i don't see women being predatory publishers but there's my bias so the idea is that you basically pay somebody to to put your work in a fake journal. Well what What what this guy did. What shalom did was Published a paper in the american journal of biomedical science. Where he Where he said that a bat like pokemon creature spread over nineteen and the paper was called silage city covid. Nineteen outbreak leaked to zubac consumption. Now i don't know what pokemon stuff is really so it doesn't resonate with me but i get the idea. It's basically saying that that That cartoon characters are spreading the disease and it was accepted for publication and it was written by by. Bruce wayne was one of the authors. Was the lead author in there. You go and so they they. They actually were able to get that published and then it was cited which is really hilarious. There's actually a quote that he includes from his his pure reviewed article so he says some would argue that editors cannot recognize. Poke on names like you just said kevin lines in the tax such as quote a journal publishing this paper does not practice pure view and must therefore be predatory or disinvited article a predatory journal. That likely does not practice. Peer review end quote would have tipped off anyone who bothered to read the articles. So he's writing in the story that this is bullsh- yes yeah he basically torpedoes zone thing right. And then what's so funny is even though the scott published. It was cited by physicist in tunisia. Who cited the poco article is one of the one of these things And that was published in the international journal of engineering research and technology so he cited the article and the made up references. Which which again shows that. There's absolutely no oversight. You know these are predatory journals that publish anything you said. It's incredible okay. So let's talk about how significant a problem. This is at one point. He makes which is encouraging is that academic institutions are wising up to this problem and so when they're looking at Cv's for possible Employment for people that want to work. There they're recognizing okay. We need to look out for publications in these bunk journals and over time. Hopefully and speak to this. Because you're an academic overtime that's going to minimize this. This problem will stop sending their articles so these journals knowing that it's not going to improve their reputation and i'm sure that most academics don't know which journals are predatory or not. It takes a lot of work like as a as a journalist. If i see a news article. I have to go. Check the reference and make sure. It's a legit journal that it has a real impact factor. Otherwise you know. I risk harming our reputation. So i think academics probably have that same incentive. Yeah it's really tough especially for junior faculty where the pressure to publish his extremely high and you get a solicitation that says you know the the east african journal of horticulture and we turn around your article twenty four hour review seven hundred and fifty dollar publishing costs and one of my former students actually got trapped in that. And that's why i know that their Their publishing houses a storage shed in norcross georgia. Because i i tracked them down. And i went after the editor and turns out there actually in nigeria This is just a a a faux facade of and address here in georgia but my student wanted to withdraw the paper. And they wouldn't do it. They would not take it back and so when he wanted to send it to a legitimate journal. The legitimate journal wouldn't publish it because it was already published in a In a predatory journal And it was and to me. This was crossing a line. because it wasn't yet published in the predatory journal. It was only in the review process. And they said if you do not if you do not pay the publishing fee we will publish your paper. So they basically held his work for ransom that they would put it in a bad place that would destroy his reputation if it got there so these. These folks are real scumbags. His story was in the back of science magazine. If you look up dr ellen chambers. His story was actually written. Because as a as a cautionary tale for junior faculty to be extremely careful of where you choose to publish your work that's brutal. So appear review journal would publish an analysis of the situation but a peer reviewed journal would not publish his actual work. Eventually they did and you know all is well but it took some Persistence and you know. I had to get involved. Because i don't want him You know having trouble reputational. I can handle that What is this on my list right so you know everything else has been said so but the but the basic idea is just that these are really slimy operations that really misinformed the public. And that's the big problem you know you're smart enough to be able to check your sources but is somebody who is just thinking. They're perusing scholarly literature about kobe. Nineteen and finding information you know. The on one is obvious. But there's lots of other stuff out there that is raising the cackles of the public. That would never make it in a real journal. It really is tough. And they're good at disguising what they really are an end because some of these journals not all of them but some of them are indexed in academic resources so even in pubmed which is the federal government's database of peer reviewed journals and peer reviewed articles. You can find some of the scam literature in legitimate sources like that and they've even invented Like junk indexes because i mentioned impact factor earlier. There's ways that you can rate the quality of peer reviewed journal and so now they're even inventing their own scales and so it's getting really really difficult to to find it. So if you're just the average person in new google in origin of sars cov two you might get lost in finding one of these articles so it is a legitimate problem for sure well and some of the journals to make things worse are trying to change their ways. Or maybe they just were duped in the beginning into you know. We're we're starting a journal and so we need to just accept everything and they took some stuff that was kind of dubious like the senate paper you know that went into. I think an md dpi journal. Who now they're recruiting trying to recruit me to be an editor and i'm saying no way not until that paper's gone so they're trying to bring aboard legitimate scientists even though they've made our lives miserable for years by publishing bad work and there's an interesting thing i did if you look up on predatory pushback I have a blog that started years ago. And it's kind of funny. If you google predatory pushback because i would take the addresses of the solicitations i would receive. And i would see where they are and and then put them on the map and you can see where all these predatory publishers are operating from and like. I was saying empty. Lots Subdivisions apartments in apartment complexes. And it's really really at some of them have a rented office space where they aren't really there but it's a physical address that they can use and they have like a receptionist there and a place that they can get mail and email forwarded so it seems like a legitimate address until you find seven or eight different. Publishers are using the same one. So there's a lotta real slaney stuff going on out there and you just have to be extremely careful in vetting the scientific literature you consume and where you publish very good. Well you've been warrant lookout for predatory journals when you're doing research for school or just curious about a topic but let's let's leave it there. Kevin what's going on at talking. Biotech talking biotech. This week is just me talking about what is an m. r. a. based vaccine. I tried to get people on from the companies. But there's a really weird thing happening right now. Everybody's in full lockdown mode with respect to the media and are really controlling their messaging and so they don't wanna have anybody get out in front maybe. Just tell everybody to be quiet. It's really unfortunate because we know from agriculture that we have to be out in front of new technology in order to garner acceptance. And so i did it myself. You know it's it's not nearly as good as when you have a guess. But i think it's still a provocative episode that helps the listener share. Good information about what these technologies are. And i really do hope you listen especially those of you who are molecular biology geeks. You'll get a little something out of it. So real quick are they just concerned about screwing up their approval with the fda or they just don't want any bad press or it's just it just sounds like it's precautionary or maybe. I'm wrong about that. no. I think you're right. I think it's they're afraid of getting out over their skis. And you know if you because they don't wanna they don't want to bring any They don't wanna they don't wanna bring any attention to something that it unless they don't want to say anything or let any information out unless it's gone through all the filters i think that's what the ideas all right. Well i guess that makes us certain level of sense. We'll check it out and so he's an interesting Science lesson over there and Follow us on twitter at kim. J. english at kevin fulton and subscribe on itunes or spotify review. Some of you guys doing that. Thank you it helps other people find the show. And if you're feeling charitable this holiday season send us a buck five bucks. Click the donate button at the bottom of every episode and we will see you next week.
The predatory publishers sucking science's blood Updated audio
"This is an ABC podcast Sir. Science Fiction Hey on the Tesha Mitchell. Welcome search this week. The pursuit of a Predator as a reporter. You you get all kinds of of little suggestions. Tips complaints yes. And you can't deal with them all. This one intrigued me. I had started to hear about similar complaints and sort of once. You hear enough of of them. The signal adds up. You think. Maybe there's a story here. What was I seeing? What what the clues that? That major smell a rash. I was a researcher myself. I was a faculty librarian at my university and I did a research probably starting five six years ago I I was always looking for publishing opportunities. I started getting letters and I started to receive these emails. Sort of saying extremely nice. Nice things to me that basically said call for Paper Journal Editors Wanting Me To submit my manuscript to their journal and they had lots of grammatical errors in addition to that one in the emails and then generally speaking editor. I don't say very nice things about you and they don't typically they don't write to you and ask you to submit a manuscript. Will you ever tempted to submit. No no I mean I'm a clinical epidemiology in some of these journals were literally from Soil Science Right. Why would somebody from soil science be asking me and saying Nice things about me? They wouldn't no me from anywhere he's smell. I did maybe several but that rash or several thousand rats via now well and truly on the loose predatory publishes and the predatory journals have become a mega industry global in reach ending ending destructive potential. In fact you're going to hear from someone who believes that this industry represents the biggest threat to science since the inquisition Shen the. US Federal Court recently ordered one of the biggest of these companies to pay up over fifty million US dollars. Only international headquartered voted in Hyderabad in India but also operating in the US claims to publish hundreds of scientific and medical journals. It was found to employ deceptive business practices essentially entrapping scientists to other publishing their journals or participate in conferences. So does the ruling site. bye-bye predatory publishes. Well let's see if Any of that money actually moves anywhere. It's not clear with a mix ex-group will cough up that fifty million dollars which is an estimate of how much the company made from customers over a six-year period or whether it will appeal. We sent a list list of questions to its representatives but yet to receive a reply but it is nice clear message to all the Sake Journal. Publishers of the world that they're being watched touched and there could be consequences. John Bohannon a science journalist and now director of science at an artificial intelligence startup in San Fran called primer. They didn't basically slipping under the radar and using American Canadian and European banks to move money millions of dollars of money from elicit gains. So this court ruling basically makes extremely inconvenient to do now. Joan was asked to present evidence in the case brought against the annex group by the US Federal Trade Commission because he'd had an unusually Hansa with the publisher so mix was one of hundreds of publishers offers. That I tested in sting operation. I wrote some computer code to generate thousands of very bad scientific papers. And what happened next these kind of legendary in science circles back in two thousand twelve John was reporting for the Journal. Science and the expression expression predatory journals wasn't in common news There was a guy named Jeffrey. You who was probably the only person around making a big stink about this and trying to actually Shine a light on it. It was very very bold effort. He had something called feels list or at least it became known as beal's list. My name is Jeffrey Bill. And I'm a retired academic librarian from the University of Colorado Denver professor. Beal beal's blacklist fame and a climb and Notaro He was the first to coin. The phrase predatory journals the Journal. Publishers hated being malysz because it stigmatizes them and meant that their income was decreased. Most of the predatory publishers are predatory not only in their publishing but in just the way they operate in general and they would use the heckler's actors veto. They would call the library director and complain about me and they would try to annoy people at my university as much as possible in order to manipulate those people at the university to make me stop the list so that their complaints would stop. I also received several threats of legal action including think it was in twenty twelve international threatened to sue me for one billion dollars one billion dollars. It was just a threat what I learned from it is that you can basically basically pay an attorney five hundred dollars in all right a threatening letter so they they did that but they never followed through with. It was never introduced in any court personal consequences consequences for Jeffrey of running. That black least were immense. And I'll come back to that. One estimate suggests that there are at least eight thousand predatory journals. This is just one publisher of many. But Jeffrey Bill provocatively calls it. The Evil Empire of Predatory Publishing I stand Dan by that statement and what they do is. They've really hurt a lot of people. You know the scholarly publishing system works on the honor system and people operate in good faith but oh mix international has has totally broken all that down. They use a lot of spamming to solicit article manuscripts from researchers they have journal titles that match the titles of respected journals. Usually one word off enough to confuse people that might be the respected journal in the `field they will at People's names to their editorial boards without the person's permission people from top universities top researchers in the field and they'll use their identity to promote the journal and when the person finds out about it and ask them to remove their name. They don't remove it they just leave it there because they're operating operating from foreign country. There's really nothing you can do about it and especially prey on young researchers in emerging researchers researchers who don't speak English as their first language it's not just scientists from developing countries that are targeted although that easing acknowledged problem clinical epidemiologist. David Mo- assays the crosses reaches into some of America's most delayed institutions including Harvard in an analysis that we did where we looked at a close to two thousand thousand articles published in Predator journals. We found that actually the most frequent corresponding authors were from what we would call first. World countries countries would lots of money and lots of resources that is troubling very very troubling because it suggests that at these institutions authors may not Be Aware of predatory journals and we need to obviously ramp up some educational activities. People think that they're sending the manuscript to a legitimate respected journal. When it's really just a phony dough mix international journal and then they quickly accept the paper without any peer review and then send them an invoice and at that point the authors realized that something is wrong because There was really no peer reviewed done yet. The papers accepted and they have this two thousand dollars invoice that comes through email and the olmecs demanding payment. Most of them asked to withdraw the paper when they realized that they've been duped. But then oh mix says has you can't withdraw your paper unless you pay US withdrawal fee. An often than olmecs will publish the article quickly and one of their journals and then and they can't submit it anywhere else. Because that would be duplicate submission it would be publishing the same article twice. which is something not supposed to do that? Nothing about predatory regionals. He's what he's supposed to happening science as John Bowen discovered when he sent them a taste. Yes yeah so I just wanted some data. It's frustrating to have such an enticing story of you know bad actors that Potentially Ricky and millions of ill gotten dollars dollars and not get some data to find out if it's true so we appear stay in molecular biology from Oxford oppy slave. He plotted an experiment which was pretty straightforward. And the idea in a nutshell is if I submit a really and I mean truly bad scientific paper to your journal title and you accept it with no sign of any peer review and you ask me for money then you're you're a fake journal publisher. Yeah John Wanted to test how easy it was to get published in a predatory journal it can usually take many months years even to get a pipe into a reputable scientific journal. And even then it's not a given. That's partly because of what's called Peer Review essential to the scientific process. So you do an experiment. You brought it up reporting your results. Submitted to a journal and then it gets pulled to shreds by a bunch of other scientists and so it should. That's it's peer review. It's designed to Cape Science rigorous experiments well-designed the results real usable and reproducible. Many predatory regionals site. They conduct peer review. That in fact most of them don't do appear review they go through the motions of period view. They might have like a stock appear of you that they use for every paper that's submitted and basically the papers are accepted in just published almost immediately as soon as the invoices paid and so pure review view is it's it's a fundamental component of how honest journals carry out their business of looking at manuscripts and seeing seeing whether they're fatally flawed or whether they can be improved and whether they're acceptable for publication dive. Moa Is Director of the Center for Gen in a Lola at the Ottawa Hospital Research Institute at the University of Ottawa. Hey and colleagues. Just hosted a global summit on predatory journals because they what a building consensus Ivo what they are and how to shut them down. So is these sorts of behaviors and many other behaviors that are not trustworthy. Jiffy deal when something is published in a scholarly journal that doesn't represent validated science. Then then it pollutes the whole scientific record and can't build on junk science or if you do the future science isn't real science either On science fiction. ABC Iran with Natasha. Mitchell we're looking at predatory publishes and the threat. They pose to science scholarship in truth so back to science journalist John by Hannah. And he's sting operation own predatory journals. mm-hmm you wrote a fake paper. In fact you you actually wrote a computer program to write hundreds of spoof papers yeah actually. It spat out thousands. I ended up only needing hundreds. He's computer program changed the authors affiliations specific chemicals cancer cells and other ingredients have. He's experiment but the funding was pretty much the same and this study was potentially. We'll changing. Yes it was a thrill cure cancer at this John. I was basically claiming that this chemical that I found in this little lichens little plant. Plant like creature was able to kill cancer cells in solution. So you know in principle could inject stuff into your blood like you doing chemotherapy be and it would hopefully kill off the cancer cells and I had these very impressive charts showing the results very impressive. Yeah at face value. The Piper hype is sanded convincing but they will all seed in with glaring eras and this would take literally one minute just one glance really of any reasonable double science who was doing peer review of this paper. You just look at the numbers represented this charts and they just make no sense at all. Just don't make any sense. And the design of his experiment experiment that was fatally flawed too. I mean these are the kind of mistakes that highschool stupid mic like these. This isn't even college level. Mistakes this is just like the biggest most most embarrassing scientific mistake imagine. This isn't subtle stuff and then John Wind even further. I just wanted to like bring it to the next level so at the ended the paper. I have the authors say that you know the next thing we're going to do is test this in humans which to any reviewer should be the biggest red flag I mean aside from the fact that science it looks like completely junk. That's just completely unethical. Then he targeted generals suspected to be predatory including two run by ex scrape one cold medicinal chemistry another biology amid a season of eight months. He submitted ten pipers awake. And what happened. Next is incredible incredible. Any reasonable publisher should have looked at that. Paper said not in no way on that publishing this a lot of journals. Dd Saturday status. Give us give us the very murray doc stats well. The darkest of dark stats is that sixty percent of the publishers accepted my article. So did any any of those sixty percent ask you to make any kind of amendments almost never when they did it it involved formatting trivial changes often they would it asked me to add citations two papers that they'd published which is also really not a good practice but now they almost never did any substantial review an even in the few exceptions that DDP to conduct some kind of Scientific Peer Review Jones paper was often accepted anyway. I even after a damning review. What's more to mainstream totten's of Science Publishing Elsevier and sage court out not much to their embarrassment? Yeah it was grim. That was not a great day for Scientific Publishing and so over. The course of that experiment took months to finish. I just sort of got more and more pessimistic about the publishing world. It really changed my view of the whole industry that I was part of some people who a had been caught up in this thing did contact me afterwards. In fact we got at least one angry letter to the editor from one of these journals that got caught with its pants down but I don't have that much sympathy for them because they had the one job. You know if you're the editor of a journal all you gotTa do is withhold the integrity of the journal and clearly weren't doing that some editors of the more reputable journals I think expressed a sense of betrayal of trust and I wonder what you'll response constant. Oh Yeah Yeah. Absolutely everyone craft all over the whole thing. How else would they have reacted? It was basically like taking the giant dump on their entire world. A couple of editors lost their jobs but considering that they had jobs that a fake journal. I I don't see that it's such a big loss. So he's a handful of us now. In the industry the Predatory publishing industry has not gone away has not left silence infect all indications that it has grown massively strong if you carried out the sting operation again. What do you think might happen? Oh I think the picture would probably be worse if I were to do it again though. I'll tell you what I would do. Is I would send a sample papers to the the publishers who have the more traditional model as well It kind of amazed me that this whole problem that I uncovered was dismissed by many for the simple fact that I hadn't also submitted fake papers to different kinds of journals at so they felt like they were being unfairly picked mcdon- so so did some people in the open access publishing movement and it's a passionate movement. Did they think that you had unfairly. Targeted them in particular. Oh yeah absolutely. They dragged through the mud. It was really unpleasant cleaning shells for the traditional scientific publishing world which is hilarious. If if you've known me at all it's really quite the opposite. I'm quite an advocate for open access everything but whatever it's fine science journalist John Vo Hanan the confusion between the open access publishing movement and predatory journals is perhaps for another edition of the show. It's controversial you say. Both charge authors to publish their pipers. Instead of slugging raiders all subscribe as with phase so the open access argument for that is that opens up scientific knowledge. Like never before I phrase it up from behind traditional gentle pie walls but some believe these author pies model creates inherent conflict of interest and that predatory traded treat publishes of taking advantage of that in order to build prophets and taking advantage of scientists to who had desperate to get published in the publish. This you'll perish culture of science. Some of them are taking up the offer because they're being tricked by the predatory publishers. And that's why I use the term predatory because they're preying on them. They're they're preying on their weaknesses that people need to get published so people are earning degrees. People are getting promotions at universities. People people earning tenure in some cases based on a publications in low quality fake predatory journals that don't conduct any peer review and have have almost no settling at all they accept everything and we've also learned that Pharmaceutical companies are publishing their research to justify the the efficacy of their new medicines are using predatory journals to do that as well. What do you think the key drivers of the predatory journal Sane has been? It's easy easy money. As Jeffrey bills blacklist of predatory journals grew in influence as did. His reputation publishes publishes and others pushed back angrily at him at his criteria for inclusion on the least at his lone ranger approach at his singular antagonism some of open access publishing some went straight to his universities ladyship to attack his credibility and he became a kind of hybrid of hero in. I'm Tara how did his university respond for the most part for the first few years they were supportive of me and the legal office did help me. It is some tricky situations you know that I had gotten in because of the threats from the publishers but towards the end I think they grew weary of me a and the support decreased. Did you ever receive pressure to shutdown. You'll blog from your university. I received a pressure but it wasn't pressure to shut shut down the blog. Things became increasingly uncomfortable towards the end before I retired I retired a year ago. Did it become uncomfortable. The university he did that some things I used to have an office and they took me out of an office and put me into a cubicle. They hired a new person to work in the library. He had two years of library experience and they made him be my supervisor. And you know part of Predatory publishing there's a broader context to it. There's a social movement behind open access publishing. A lot of people want to kill off the traditional publishers and had them all replaced with open access journals so that everybody throughout the world connects us all published research and it's a very Left wing social movement. And so the person that came in as my supervisor was among among those people and so we had strikingly kingly different ideologies about scholarly publishing so. That was way that they were pressured. Me Why did you shut down bills least in in. I think it was two thousand seventeen. Taint it has reincarnated with anonymous editors in some sense to protect themselves from what you went through. But why did you decide to shut it down. Well in January worry of that year I learned that the university was working with one of the publishers on my list and the results of that was that the university initiated a research. I misconduct investigation against me and I knew I hadn't engaged any research. Misconduct myself because research misconduct means means of falsification fabrication or plagiarism. By definition and I knew I hadn't done any of that yet they started this case against me and I felt very stigmatized pies by it and that kind of sealed it for me with the university I take another action against me and now here was something major. A research misconduct case. And that's why I decided to stop the list. What was the outcome of that case the outcome in July of twenty seventeen was snow? Research misconduct found that. Make you feel it made me feel horrible. I felt like my own university that I worked at for seventeen years. I was turning against me and I felt stigmatized and I felt like I really can continue the work. And that's why I shut down the blog and the lists you. I think that was a trigger for that action. Sure it was the publisher that they worked with was a big one and the predatory Tori publishers. The ones that are doing really well are rich. They have lots and lots of money. They can hire lawyers to go after people and they can organiz well. And there are several very large very successful predatory publishers out there and and they have a lot of power and they. We'll go after anybody who threatens their income was that publisher the publisher was frontiers. So you'd assist them to be a predatory publisher and yeah and I had lots of evidence from stuff that they had published. They published an article about Chem trails in the Sky Cam conspiracy theory yeah. They published an article about that which they quickly retracted. After I wrote a blog post about it. They they published an article saying that. HIV doesn't cause AIDS. So I had lots of lots of solid evidence that they weren't really conducting Valla Peer Review. I mean that's bad science. It's not necessarily making them and predatory publisher plenty of crap lanes in good journals But it gets gets retracted and publishing junk. Science is one of the criteria that I use to evaluate publishers. I mean you're if you submit at an article to a publisher thinking it's good publisher when they're publishing crap science poor science that is a type of predation against honest researchers. They don't want to be associated shared with junk science a spokesperson for the University of Colorado Denver. Where Jeffrey held a tenured faculty position would not comment on any research misconduct misconduct investigation but tolls friction that the university quote defended and supported Professor Bills Academic Freedom to pursue predatory publishing as part of? He's scholarship junk. hunk is the science in predatory journals. You and colleagues have have conducted a study to analyze the quality of the research that the studies that Mike it into that are accepted by predatory journals. What's striking observations? Did you make the Quick Tanko. Messages at the quality of reporting of these articles is really horrendously bad epidemiologist David Moa at the University of Ottawa. And when we compare that to do what we might consider is the legitimate literature it. It's very very much worse. And that's not to say that there aren't problems in the quality of reporting sorting of Legitimate Journal. There are but when we moved to predatory journals it suggests that there's the the screening that's going on so for example. We consider peer review in a sense of screen of the integrity. And the scientific composer of the research is perhaps not going on many of these papers. These are funded by Reputable agencies and so in a country like Canada where much research is paid out of You taxpayer dollars. It's really very very wasteful. It scientifically very problematic won't be seeing won't be cited and of course it's a waste of money any and it. It may also contribute to sort of adding layers of fakeness to what people are trying to get at is the truth because they don't conduct a proper period view and their publishing bogus science. If you have an agenda A nonscientific agenda agenda pseudoscientific agenda. You can use predatory publishers to publish your work. You know two of the biggest open questions in in science are what what is the nature of dark matter and what is the nature of dark energy this is from cosmology. And there's no scientific consensus as to the answers to those two questions in their big big questions in cosmology and physics. The biggest questions of all I think so but those questions have been answered. Many times in predatory journals are knows. There's lots of people writing articles claiming that they've discovered the answers to those questions in the predatory. Publishers are happy to accept them as long as the authors pay the fee and and they're published. There's some out there that would happily publish your paper saying that. Vaccines Cause Autism or that. There's no global warming occurring or that nuclear power is is going to destroy everybody. A bread causes cancer. Anything you want to write you can ride it and they'll publish as long as you. Pay The fee David. Mo- assays that like fake news scientists and citizens and clinicians and now struggling to distinguish fact from fiction in predatory publications and he wants a global observatory. Set Up to scrutinize they practices the problem. Is that many of these predatory predatory journals they are now making their way into Trusted sources over example for many researchers clinicians enjoy patients. They may look a pubmed put out by the National Library of medicine. The United States and big data rice of scientific pipers a huge database. And and what we see is that they're getting infiltrated. With articles from predatory journals they are funded by esteemed institutions funding institutions such as the National Institutes of health. And what is the patient to do. What's a clinician to do? Will these people make decisions based on on on that sort of evidence and I think that that's an incredibly problematic. Geoffrey beale believes makes international will survive despite the recent US federal fifty million dollar court ruling against them but we'll save science from they sorts of publishers of predatory journals. I don't see the problem going away. In fact. In some a lot of countries the open access advocates have been successful flagging governments. To pass laws requiring federally funded work to be published in open access journals. So they're there. When the predatory publishers here about these laws they are ecstatic about them because it helps them because a certain percentage of the people are going to be publishing in in the predatory journals whether by mistake or or intentionally in they will be the market the market is there and it's encoded in law now increasingly so they had a we stop the open access movement? which many says a positive thing you don't From being infiltrated by predatory publishes. I don't know a way to stop them. Publishers have freedom of the press. And there's really no laws. They're not breaking any laws in most cases unless they engage in and identity theft or other things like that but for the most part they're they're completely sanctioned by by governments because of freedom of the press. Uh John Behan. I think we're GONNA have to reinvent how we do things this old fashioned way of submitting a paper and having some mysterious peer review ooh that no one ever sees happened behind a curtain and results in yesterday. No I think we may have to really put some effort into alternative models and they do exist. I it's just that that's a big culture change. You could make pure review transparent for example you can have the review part of the record of the paper. Let's really embarrassing harassing. It's scary for most scientists to think of a worldwide. That's the norm. So there's a lot of resistance there are certainly if it's on the to open up that whole peer review prices Isis and in fact even crowd source at. Yeah that's one way forward another would be you have some kind of Global Auditing System. Where you know someone like me me doing a sting operation like I did is just continuously rolling along to find out if you're keeping your word of doing period view that's expensive and unlikely likely to happen because everyone has to agree to do it well in some sense? Some might be surprised to hear that it's not happening at all and that anyone everyone pretty much anyone could establish a scientific journal put it online make it look legit and start making money. Oh Yeah you and I could make a journal right now. I can and fifteen minutes to wordpress site and attach a bank count to it. I mean what he reckon these a fancy name. What should we used? Ralian Million Journal of Melbourne San Francisco Melbourne Frisco Journal where we can work. On that the John Bohannon Geoffrey Beale and David Moa joining may today and thank you for your ears. Thanks to co-produce Jane Lee Talk to me on twitter at the tash cashew Mitchell or email me at the science friction website. And I'm back with all spanking brand new shows twenty twenty next week June in shared the podcasting getting touch by. You've been listening to an A._B._C.. podcast discover more great A._B._C.. podcasts live radio and exclusives on the A._B._C. Listen APP.
260 Communicating Ag in an Attention Economy
"Turn. Welcome to the talking biotech podcast is weekly podcast about agriculture and medicine with an emphasis on biotechnology and the good things we can do for people and planet my name's Kevin. I'm a professor and podcast host, and one of the things we've talked about for a long time now is that simply innovating is not enough. That innovation has to come along with some communication before it gets to application. And we've seen all kinds of examples of this between genetically engineered crops and animals to even vaccination whenever we come up with new innovations that have very important impacts. Maybe be the best example today, the HP vaccine right. There are still people who refuse to take it and still a lot of misinformation and disinformation swirling about what that vaccine is yet even today, a study of one million Swedish women showed that it significantly decreases incidents of different types of cancers. So. There's a really important in urgent. Need to increase our ability to communicate this information correctly. One of the things we made a mistake with US scientists was thinking. We could just bury people in science and it wasn't just that we couldn't just give them the data and evidence and expect everything to be okay that with took understanding the psychology and social sciences in order to be able to be more effective, and one of the folks who I've had the pleasure of working with in many different ways over the years has been Dr Cami Right. She's with us today on the podcast and we'll talk about some of these important topic. So welcome to the podcast Dr Ryan. Well. Thanks Kevin. It's great to be here. And I I really. That, we have the opportunity to do this, and now the timing is just right. I've wanted to have you on for a long time, but recently read something that you wrote in Upper Purdue University that was really important and really kind of tap me on the shoulder and said that we had to do this. See Right. Now you work as the social sciences lead for. Bayer Crop Sciences. Yes I do our regulars brand signed various. Yes. In regulatory and scientific affairs. Okay. But you didn't always work for. Bayer. And you and I first met back when you were a in academic a university of schedule. Yes. In Canada. Yeah. Well, you're originally from Canada right I now. You're you're Canadian and you originally worked for University of Saskatchewan and you tell me some of the things that you are studying back then. Well, my phd research by the way, it's really interesting talking to you and hearing your chickens. In the background. I have the window, but I probably need to close that. No. Open your Mbia it's Providing some ambiance here. It's really good. I think that that's either funds -I. Or Stinky Lyle I'm not sure which one. But what. But that's what who the roosters Stinky Lion. So the FAWNS. Stinky Lyle, you went off tell me that story later. So. Tell me about your you tell me about your academic past. Okay I will. Well back in the day when I was doing my PhD research I was interested in the relationships amongst scientists, not only the professional relationships by the personal relationships. Do they play rowing at? Did he go for beer together? Do they all do all of these things? So it Kinda linked in with the tool of social network analysis where you try to understand how things are connected. Slowly, over time that research involved into looking at how plant a plant genetic systems or systems of. Organizations and individuals are connected sharing. Information or sharing materials like plan genetic resources in sort of thing. So I, was looking at that and how those organizations worked together to facilitate material transfers. Intellectual Property Exchange all of those kinds of things then economy balled into taking that network tool and looking at how our activists organized around one another. So that's kind of I'm kind of squishing it all into. A bit of a simplistic turn or a description of what my work was around but By two thousand nine, I was on this genome Canada funded project and it was a flash project flax research project. So I was the social scientists that was on board with Al and was looking at a bunch of social. Issues around flax research. You know exchange of intellectual property, all of that. But what happened during that time very early in my tenure with project is that? A genetically engineered flax seed was discovered or seeds were discovered in stores and flax in the EU, and I won't get into the details of what happened there, but essentially shut down the. You know the egg flax industry in Canada caused a lot of problems, but it really incited me to understand better what con- controversy and how. How controversies can really drive dialogue around food production even when things are. Ordine safe but also looking at issues, management techniques or tactics around those things. So by the time I met new in two, thousand, twelve, two, thousand, thirteen, I was the project was coming to a close, but I also had gotten interested in science communication. So I think that's where you and I cross pass which was really interesting. And that original research would you say that was kind of organizational psychology that kind of discipline? Yeah. A lot of that in behavioral psychology. A lot of it revolved around I mean you're you're also looking at innovation right? Another facet that was innovation while how do you optimize? Intellectual Property Exchange whether it's the knowledge in people's heads or it's or it's a patent to optimize innovative capacity. So there's there's a business aspect of it. There is the organizational psychology part is. Behavioral things as well because what I did discover very early on the process, is that the stronger relationships that you have with human relationships or connections the more you get done that the outcome of my my PhD, my doctoral research. So relationships matter. Well you ended up leaving academia and going to saint, Louis Missouri, and maybe taking a turn that was almost in a way seemingly at least to those of us who watched a very different, almost the opposite of the academic track because you went to work for the Monsanto Company and could you tell me a little bit about that transition me? What was it like going from? To working for a not just a company but a company that had in an image management let's say issue. With respect to their public perception. Well, I definitely there were reputational issues with Monsanto, but that may have been one of the bigger reasons that I decided to make that shift or that transition is really examining whereas going in my career and I spent the last few years really looking at controversy issues, management, public perceptions of biotechnology, all of these things and I. It was fascinating to me and I thought well, what's the next thing that I can do that I can extend my you know take take. Take my career down. A related but value added path and I. Really my whole thought was well, here's his opportunity with this company that already has number one reputational issues but clearly are leading the process of issues management around these things because they are lightning rod for all of this criticism. So for me, I thought the best way to have the the next step in my career was to actually go into what I call the belly of the beast and to really Experience what it's like working at a company like that that's actually managing all of these things it to me was. An has been the social science case study of a lifetime. But that's really interesting to me because this is a seed company in the seed company sells to farmers in. So why would they even care about? We know something like it's like social acceptance because I mean the there nobody goes to the grocery store and says, well, I'm not buying that product, right? They're not. They're not selling directly to the consumer. It's not something you can boycott like chef boyardee or something. Well true. But food is food. Food's a very important part of our social fabric is you know we gather around the table is families and friends and we pulled together. And part of the food conversation is food production and seed couple companies are definitely part of that and so Monsanto, and there were all these conversations occurring out there in the public sphere that companies like Monsanto want even a part of. So I, think that they had to switch what they were doing. So of course who they were communicating with an all seed companies were communicating with was their shareholders. The farmers were their COMP, their clients and and of course, their employees but they had to shift. There was a shift there, and so when I joined the company, they were all already well on their way to start examining ways to reach out to other more broader audiences like a food foodies in an MOMS in people that were really concerned about where their their food, how food was produced. Do. You think that was because they felt they really dropped the ball that they should have embraced. The food easing the MOMS earlier. I. Don't know I think that there is this When you're focused on doing the job that you're doing and you you know that you're doing a good job, don't often think beyond the boundaries I. think that's part of our problem in all of our disciplines or whatever job we do is sometimes we get so attached to the vocation that we don't look outside the pathway that were on and so the pathways were changing and moving, and maybe as an industry we weren't keeping up. So I I wouldn't fully blame it all on one entity. I think it was just as an industry more broadly we weren't paying attention to what? was happening in society and you know we know that even though there is scientific consensus around something whether it's a product or technology meaning that something is safe and valuable and beneficial to societies. It doesn't mean that they're social consensus around it. So we have to tackle these problems. I think companies like Monsanto in the industry more broadly now has recognized that we need to understand some of these broader issues that are attached to innovation and science. If we don't understand these things than our innovation pipeline or our products or technologies that we wanna have social license to use our risk. But this is the thing that drives me crazy and maybe you've kind of answered this already. But. People don't forget freaked out about technology I. Don't think that apple hires a social scientist to. figure out how they can. Best. Help understand why the public I would be afraid of a smartphone or you know or any other kind of technology people seem to lineup embrace that they embrace medical technology. What is it about seeds? That make them particularly strong as a lightning. Rod. Well, the probably has something to do largely mean you really have some good insights on this Kevin too but I think we're farther away were geographically generation Lee detached from farming and food production. Right the this is like way back there for us we don't buy the seed quote unquote in the grocery store to your earlier point. So we don't have that attachment to the farm and I think the. Away from something. And were and the more the gap widens the more. There is an opportunity for other people to fill in those gaps or those information vacuums where there is no information and perhaps that was one of the bigger mistakes the industry did early on is it failed to anticipate these gaps and what that meant for for society's more broadly and how they would probably go out and seek information. But then of course, you know alternative sources of. Information. I. Guess the other thought about this. Perhaps I've seen some people describe it this way or maybe it was me I don't know. That when you monkey with Maslow's hierarchy of needs on the lowest level. Then, you freak people out. So things like food or water tend to be kind of touchy subjects where a cell phone is kind of further up that pyramid Does that make any sense or resonate at all? Yeah. Absolutely. Actually to your earlier point, it's funny because all of those silicon valley companies link all of those technical companies like apple they all have social scientists working in their space and have for years. Ironically the egg in agriculture I. Think my role was was if it wasn't the first of its kind, it was one of the first of its kind and there's not a lot of people like me working in industry. So ironically, there probably should be more of us in. Be Tapping those not that expertise in that knowledge as companies and organizations in this industry. But yeah, you're right like we we have this interesting noncontroversial relationship with the phones that we have. We derive value immediate value from these phones be or this kind of technology are laptop or whatever it is. But the thing is we can't relate to the technology that is embedded in a beneficial trait in a seed. We don't see the value of that immediately. And I guess that's kind of frustration for someone like me because for years I've been so excited about these kinds of technologies for genetic engineering whether you're making insulin microbes or making a roundup ready whatever I've always been really excited about that even going back to when I was in high school and used to study this stuff and for me it made perfect sense the problem was is that It didn't seem like like the rest of the world was sharing my enthusiasm. So we started that Kinda get out there and talk about these things and I really watched this whole idea of science communication start to grow and how do you think that that whole field has changed over the last twenty years? How is? Just scientists trying to relieve these technologies because it's the right thing to do. Yeah. How do you think that that's changed? Well I think that science communication was is a little different, right. So for thinking about how industry works, there's always sort of been at some level science communication. It just depends on where it's been directed at I. Think we've evolved over time I mentioned how even a, for example, Monsanto's. Lacy. Monsanto's communication what was at one point and we're seeing that being adopted adopted more broadly right. But at one point, just even thinking about this. So now we're in a social media driven world I remember. Even, in my early tenure with Monsanto years ago when I started I remember going to conferences and I was probably the only one from the only company that actually empowered it their employees to go on social media that that even took a while to do so when you're win societies out there having these conversations about technology and food and food production, but the people that actually have the expertise. In the knowledge are not empowered by the companies to go out there and do it. That's a problem again, that perpetuates a gap. So I think what's really evolved in changes in terms of science communication is that agriculture, the culture industry and the organizations and companies involved have empowered their employees to go out there and have these conversations to build these relationships and to share their knowledge meaningful ways. And when you say their employees. It's not just scientists in these places. There's everything from attorneys to sales people to whatever, and you find that scientists are probably the worst at doing it. You know you know. Okay. So I'm in my fifties and I don't think any scientists in my in my. Age Range really was trained to communicate about science we were trained to do science so it isn't natural for everybody I. Think now the upcoming generations I think they're starting to in and you probably can shed some light on this Kevin but I think in the in in the universities and colleges they're starting to. Sign this going through science training part of that is, of course, the communications aspect of it. So I think it's better but let's face it science in the process of observing a it's a process of observation. I mean her social science perspective my job as an academic was to observe human behavior. That's how I do it. That was my experimentation population That's what I looked at but we always no matter for in the social sciences or hard natural sciences we kind of operate naturally. Out of an ivory tower, because we remove ourselves from that, which were observing from a social science perspective, right so it's very natural in the culture supports that whole thing of being removed from society's in order to do your work will we camp? Do it that way anymore we have to engage we actually I argue that we have in this day and age of misinformation we have a moral obligation to get out there and talk about our work why we love it and why it matters. It's it's I agree with you one thousand percent and we have been training students more and more and I train students all day. I would never run out of students who want to participate WHO WANNA? Learn. The correct way to engage rather than just by spewing science. But how much of all of this and then kind of the increased need has been driven by social media. Times it's. Like social media has become our new virtual living room. It has it has redefined a fundamentally changed how we are connected human beings. So it is overwhelming and powerful. It is in our everyday lives. It's on our phones. It's it's embedded in everything that we do every day. So of course, it's very powerful I mean what's what's the numbers are supposed to be wet four billion people in the world are expected to being on social media by twenty, twenty, two or twenty, twenty, three or something. This is huge right this is where we're exchanging accessing and creating information. So unless we understand how that landscape operates. We most certainly will not understand how the information that's generated and share their impacts our social licensed to operate as scientists. And how much do you feel that our social license has been eroded because folks who maybe are not so excited about science. Became masters of using social media they beat us to it. How much is that been a problem? See huge problem I think we take. A colleague Sny did a study was published in February that year in your in? The European Management, Journal it was a special issue on the dark side of social media I encourage everybody check it out because there's really good articles in that special issue. But we we did a study and we looked at GMO narrative over time and we gathered up one of almost one hundred thousand data points or you are else of individual articles that were generated between two, thousand, nine in two, thousand nineteen. and. We mapped them and we we looked at that narrative but we also looked at inflection points in how things changed over time in terms of engagement around those articles and what we know it was things like. Like. You know demonstrations or activism or activities in events that were related to that created an uptick in engagement around these things and the other thing that we found was that a lot of that a lot of that content that was generated was generated by US sites that were will be considered a conspiracy sites or alternative health sites and. These are the same or in it's not about GMO's right. We also showed that that there are these are the same organizations individuals, sites that also create generate disinformation around vaccines, and probably Kovin dug into that topic at all but but that it that's that's how this impacted scientific integrity and even if you look at the whole. Issue of academic publication, we've got predatory journals we have really great journals, academic journals that maybe don't have access to appropriate peer review in. So the pure youth progress falls apart or can fall apart. So all of this really feeds into scientific the the the whole notion of scientific integrity and our social licensed to operate a scientists, and that affects everybody. It doesn't matter what sector you're working in. Now all those things that you just mentioned really go a long way to eroding the confidence and the trust that the average consumer has in any kind of new technology. So the stuff is super effective in were years past that. Syrah. leany rat paper and it still has gravity. It has live once it gets out there even that first one that was retracted, its still getting cited it hasn't life and. That is what happens with all these. The other thing is too is that you have academic citations and perhaps you have pay walls around academic articles it probably the lay public or general public is probably never gonna read but what happens now is those. Publications are taken up into media social media, and they are shared their and interpreted in different ways there. So again, that's where you see another layer that comes into this issue. They can also affect scientific integrity. So you might have you might have actually a not bad article in Predatory Journal will it gets discount because it's in predatory journal even though it's maybe a pretty good article, but you also have some pretty bad science being published in good journals and all of this kind of works its way down through that that that media you chain know social media media value chain, and reaches the general public, and as soon as it can influence public opinion, it can. It can inadvertently raise the risk profile of certain technologies or approaches or science or GMO's, for example, in the minds of the public and the public are the ones that can influence. Public policy around they can envision it can impact decision making either either from a policy perspective or decision making from a leadership perspective no matter where you are or what sector you're working. So this has huge impacts four. All, you have to do is think about Golden Rice or think about. virus, free cassava. The these things have been held back or shelved for years and an unnecessarily. No I agree how much of this do you think is? kind of contradictions fatigue where you have people who I'll make it real easy. You know you read on watch the News, you read the paper what are- read the Internet and a new study comes out that says, a beer dale save your life, and then you read another one that says a beer, a Qilya kill you or you know coffee's good coffee's bad. You know the site works as that doesn't work I think that when you start getting into technologies where people already have some suspicions because a it's easier to. Take. The non-risk position right on the precautionary position. Do people just get worn out by not knowing who to trust? I think. So I think it's it's information overload like I would I mean I don't have any of the stats in front of me but can you imagine how many data bytes on average we are faced with day between you know being on twitter or facebook or whatever I think that there's a level of fatigue that comes with trying to consume this information there's just too much and I mean if you think about Attention more broadly as as an I referred to the attendant. We were I, the attention economy in our paper. It isn't economy, and also we have to recognize that attention is a limited resource. I only have so much of it in my day. So I'm going to be attracted to those things that that fit or confirm my bias or find relatable or meaningful in whatever way whatever lens I'm looking at the world. So these are the things that that we find an I, think we we have to deal with information overload and we want to go to people we trust. But we most often trust or access information that comes from are close personal networks because at the end of the day Kevin, we are hurt animals. Human beings are herd animals and we were we WANNA keep in line with what are close personal networks. We won't be voted off the island that's that's the fact I mean no one does likes it. No one wants to be wrong. So even if we're presented with information that shakes the ground beneath our sacred cows were GONNA go back to the information that confirms confirms not only are buys, but the Bison, the personal network around us because it's simpler. We don't want to disrupt that little island were on and we certainly don't want to be kicked off a bit. Notes is really good stuff and it ties in with a lot of what Dan Kahane's been studying other folks like that. You know we'll. We'll come back in the talking biotech podcast after a short break but speaking with Dr Cami Ryan, she's De Social and Behavioral Sciences Lead for Bayer Crop Sciences at the Bayer. Corporation in Saint Louis this talking biotech podcast and we'll be back in just a moment. Everybody this is Kevin Fulda and af something that I need you to do. We have an opportunity to solve a major ecological problem. The American chestnut used to dominate forests of the eastern US comprising something like twenty five percent of all standing timber. In one, thousand, nine, hundred, four, parasitic fungus entered the country and eventually all but destroyed this iconic tree species. There is a solution using genetic engineering. Dr Bill Powell in his lab developed an American chestnut tree that expresses a gene that helps to combat the fungus. You might have heard about this back in talking biotech number ten. His goal is to start to restore the natural ecology of the APPALACHIANS. And he submitted a petition of non regulated status for the genetically engineered trees. Now, what that means is the trees could be planted outside without a lot of onerous regulations allowing this perfectly natural gene to be back in the ecosystem defeating fungus. But we need your help right now there's a public comment period that regulators take very seriously. So please visit regulations, Dot Gov, and search with the term chestnut. You'll find the petition. Read the instructions and write a thoughtful response in your feelings about restoring the ecology and the dominance of this keystone for species. Dr Paul's Group has done the hard work. And we know the tree is resistant and we know it's safe. Now, we need your help to ensure its deployment and another success of biotechnology. And now we're back on the talking biotech podcast. We're speaking with Dr Cami, Ryan the, Bear Corporation, and we're talking about social sciences as they relate to decision making processes in the public, especially around innovations in technology, and when we left, we were talking about this idea of people don't want to be kicked off the island. Are there mechanisms where a population of people with similar worldview and believes that they actually will? Come up with mechanisms to keep people aboard. So if somebody is kind of starting to ask questions that they will. Try to defray those influences to reinforced integrity of that heard right other mechanisms like that. That take place. Well, yeah. Mean I think that's a very common thing. We do it in our own families for goodness sakes. You know going back twenty years when I was working with social network analysis tools and so forth we found that. Networks are interesting things they stay together a lot of times what pulls a network of individuals together is a common problem and when you come together over common problem you you you're looking for resources you're looking for validation of your concerns around something and you're looking to problem solve I. believe that these very good things that happen I remember back in the day when I was working up as this obscure academic universities a scotch when I was seeking people that were. Interested in the same things I was you and I found each other on twitter or something. That's not. I think that's where I think we met each other but I, was looking for that network. So that was my now we're looking for him. We all came together probably in response to the Anti Gmo movement we were interested in topics we wanted to understand behaviors. We're trying to figure out why are people so mad about this amazing technology that has such huge implications for. Improving you know production practices in it's so good for the environment. All of this we were coming together. We are trying to figure this out. But as I discovered, he might be HD research networks tend to come together be cohesive. They get into this whole thing of a little bit a group think and they reinforce the biases that may build up A. Net, but eventually, they they split apart and and we see that happening in all sorts of networks is that it's probably in a Lotta ways a healthy thing but it requires it means that people don't come away from those kinds of experiences without a damage. It's it's often hard. So we're working on a project right now looking at the history of the GMO. GMO labeling history. That's what we're looking at now, and we're kind of looking at the different networks that were involved in that including the Anti Gmo movement like originally that push for for labelling came from this very grassroots perspective of of right to know. But that is you and I know that that network itself kind of split apart and then you. Had this the whole GMO label labeling thing attached to an industry driven goal or objective. So you had the. The non GMO label come out non GMO verified so so all Kind of go through these these growth periods. So while we're herd animals and we'd like to contain stay there is always something that is disruptive than I'll make things shift, and maybe that's when innovations all about innovations not doesn't only apply technologies or or products maybe you know it also applies to people in their relationships and then it's a big part of it. I remember back when we were doing. These boot camps like these getting everybody together in one room and just kind of sharing what we were learning, what what we did to communicate science. But how we did it wrong and I think those were kind of epiphanies for a lot of people. And we really changed the idea around science communication and what we were doing and how we were doing it. But what is the big drawback of just scientist? And and others. Figuring out how to be involved in this conversation like why why is science communication is? Is it enough you know is just talking about the science see it isn't and I think where we get caught up in. Just do enough of it. It will work like Leon simplifying this coming. So I don't mean to do that because I don't think that that's really it's form you want the not and I think people thinking more nuanced ways but I think we fail to anticipate some of the problems that could come even if we communicate our way through a problem, there will be another problem at the end of it So here's what psycho cyclops. Great, and have to continue to do that. We have to continue to build resources so that scientists can communicate if they're interested in willing that they have people in support in resources so that they continue to do it and that's a whole other talk for whole other day because I think you probably have some insights on that but science communication accurate communication of accurate information about science about technologies about products has a problem with discover ability. Disinformation will always out-perform communication because it somehow can achieve economies of scale in ways that science communication can't or doesn't people are attracted to those crazy stories that have that are peppered with misinformation and disinformation can capture a much larger market share the attention as a result. So there are people out there their vendors that it's not necessarily about GMO's it's not about vaccines dot about all of this, but vendors are very interested in commodifying disinformation and they somehow are able to merge it with broader political movements to recruit in popularize their ideas so that they can actually benefit from the distant formation and the problem with all this just like with GMO's is that what be? Some of these ideas become defacto consensus in these spaces because there's so much public familiarity around them. So for now, we see in our study where we looked at GMO's in disinformation the the narrative arc for for the information around GMO's is actually gone away. It's been traded off other things anywhere from politics to pesticides or whatever but the public familiarity around GMO's means see what we're seeing is that they're still still more and more new non GMO. Products coming through the market. So even though that conversation is dissipated about GMO's people still want those products that are GMO free. So anybody involved in stem or science communication cannot always presume to have the high ground in debates around anything because sometimes something's just get a life of their own. If it's if it's a bad study published published a journal that continuously get cited even though it's retracted or it's something like GMO's and the non GMO verified hoop. So how do those of us who are willing participants in science communication get that discover ability? Well, I think we're working at it. I, think we're doing I I see a lot of great things. A couple of things that made me very happy and unsure an MRS speaks to my eyes to icon prairie girl I come from a farming community, my family farms but I really love that farmers are getting out there and getting engaged and because they're getting out there and getting engage their understanding the science more so that they can share the story in their way it in their language in ways that are meaningful. To them so I think what we figured out is that yes, scientists need to get out engaged but guess what not all scientists want to and we have to respect that too right. That's that's a very personal thing. Some people just don't want to engage in those ways, but we have to do is those that really are good at it and want to be out there engaging we have to provide the support, and that's what we try to do in our group that I work with specifically are smaller subgroups that I work with in regulatory affairs is which we try to do everything that we can to equip. Our scientists within the company to get out there and have conversations and share their knowledge and information because we believe that there is a moral imperative, not only a business imperative but there's a moral imperative for us to fill in those gaps in the information that are out there. So it's it's really import. But. This is the part that always drives me nuts because scientists at least you know I'm an R. One University, a big university that you heavy research. You. Don't go into that level of research and farmers don't go into farming because they're super excited about connecting with. Fire field scientists in the ivory tower it's anti-aesthetic. Rain Gauge that way? Yes, you're right. Right. So so how do you give them value? How do you put value in the exercise of engagement? Well, I mean I think the bigger. The bigger goal there of course is is Is probably a social licensed or our social licensed to operate. We Wanna be able to use the tools that we want. In the way we want them because they're say because their official I think that that's got to be a common element between both thinking about farmers and scientists right they just want social license to do their job as best as they can and use the tools that they can't. So those are the two things. Are Those are the probably the common elements that I can see but but yeah, I mean it's hard. When when your natural lake to me when I think about a farmer I think about my uncle, my great uncle, my grandpa when when they farmed I mean this was something they chose it there they were a thomas they were entrepreneurs in their own way and they were removed from society in. So many ways because even at that back in the day I, mean farmers could even hardly leave the farm at least now technologies developed enough that you know farmers can actually go to a family wedding or whenever and. The. Got Robotics managing the dairy farmer whatever. So yeah. I don't know if I answered your question really with that I kinda lost track. No you find. That's exactly where we're going is know even my wife she's you know she is a she farm smalley group of vegetables, specialty crops, and if someone comes to the farmers market with a camera from the written local news station and they're walking walking around and shoving it in everybody's face and saying, tell me about your arm operation. You know she's not real excited about talking to them or if there's a podcast that says, hey, why don't we get your wife on? She must be a chatterbox to Not. So interested you know really would rather be planting seeds and doing the job. And I know that that's farmers for academics. I think there's been a lot of change lately because I can talk to them about how even though they don't get credit for this for tenure promotion necessarily. You still do. And kind of giving them the sense that there's this moral obligation especially as a land grant or public scientists to be communicating and that there is some value in it for you and and that you have to do it, you just gotTa, do it and people who do I think feel very satisfied by it but it is. Very much confined to new faculty getting anybody WHO's a little long in the academic tooth to be interested from. What I I went on social media on twitter in two thousand nine. I don't know I can't remember when I was first on there and I gave a presentation in our departments at University Scotch when just brown bag lunch thing and I was talking about social media and they came up they all came up to me after I go when this is a fad and you are waste. And I went I just explained why I was wasting my time. I said, this is the new conversational space. This is going to impact on how all of us can do our job in the future. So I think you need to pay attention but yeah, I mean to your point it something new and I think we kind of again ignored it in. Those spaces just like we think we think we're doing again on that path or path dependent. We think we're doing a good job and we are we're all doing a good job. No matter what a rotation is doing a good job but if we're not keeping up with what's going on inside or outside of where where we work outside of the ivory tower. Off The farm if we're not paying attention to what's going on out there, it can impact what we get. What we get to do it our spaces, how can you stuck origin to our benefit and so forth? So I think we need to keep tight and engaged with our on our little islands because that's where we a lot of innovation can happen but we have to leave in. This is something I learned in network analysis is you have to leave enough fluidity or breaks within that network to be able to invite in other thought processes are other ideas to engage because that just makes the pie bigger while it's this is really interesting stuff. If you'll pardon a little bit of an aside. It's kind of funny because your story about you know talking at Brown bag lunch and having people not realize the value in the nineteen nineties ninety, three, ninety, four somewhere in there I used to. Sell Websites I. was a Grad student I'd go. Door to door with different companies and strip malls I'd say there's this thing called the Internet and I can get you what's called a webpage and what it is it tells about your company in anyone with a computer can learn about your company and people used I would say all it is you three hundred bucks for the website and the domain name, which is dark dirt cheap at the time and why do I want that? I have. I have the yellow pages. You know I don't want people knowing about my business you know. It really does show this complete shift in the attitudes towards the presence in that space and our contribution or need to be part of an attention economy. Yeah. Yeah. That's it's true I thought you were in a band back then was that between gigs. I was. I. Always had a dozen plates spinning because I was a Grad student getting paid twelve thousand dollars a year and living in the city of Chicago. So you know I had I had to keep things going in between shoveling snow overnight and work in the swing, a hammer and everything else I had to do. but. All good time. We talked a lot about misinformation and disinformation today and I. Really Want to really want to dig into that just a touch more. We've we talked about this briefly during the break last week in the podcast but let's go back to this again. What is the difference when we talk about misinformation verses disinformation. Okay. So misinformation and this is a this is what the literature says and I think it read. He'll resonate with everybody misinformation is really referred to is inaccurate or incomplete information. And misinformation can mislead through a number of ways it can mislead through an honest mistake through negligence or through unconscious bias. dissipation is is qualitatively different I. Think we have to understand the difference between misinformation because I think it impacts we would communicate through it but disinformation is defined in the literature as a product of a carefully planned technically sophisticated deceit process. So this information comes with intended were expected outcomes in that can be anything from wanting to get someone to like your facebook updates status to. A broader. Goal for banning targeted products or technologies, that's what you're seeking. So disinformation is a product that is commodified within a market, which is basically the attention economy and the main difference between misinformation and disinformation is intense. But the two are intertwined. So I mean you can have misinformation purposefulness disinformation can lead to the spread of misinformation of course, and misinformation in Kenan turn informed disinformation through deliberative strategies that can leverage some gaps in our understanding of products, technologies or ideas. Okay that's really a nice way to put I always put up much less eloquently. I. Always say when I see some information that I think is not reliable I always ask are they are now they stupider lying? And so that's the way to really distill down in a very course way is somebody just genuinely interested in making an honest mistake or are they willingly trying to deceive you and you know and that's the only mention that because? We, kind of joke about it. You know stupider wire. Like It where what is the basis of that misinformation and It's a much less eloquent way of putting it Kinda. Says the same thing because of that question of in tennis and it really that's the thing that separates them right? That's just all about. And I I, mean I. got to tell you and I, got credit you with this way back like years and years ago probably before we first met face to face, you introduce me to the concept of dining krueger effect. And that story. That story with the lemon juice right. Yeah. Good old I can't remember his name now MacArthur. Macarthur something. Really, unusual name, but the story for people who don't know it he was a bank robber who walked into a bank rob the bank and was walking down the street and the police grab them, and he said, how do you know it was me? And they always saw you on the camera and he said Yeah but I wore the juice. And he read somewhere probably on a webpage. That if you rubbed lemon juice on your face that the cameras couldn't see you and this was picked up, this story was read by Dunning in Kruger actually by dunning. Who then put together this hypothesis that people who had less. Knowledge had great confidence that the new and. Did. Some very eloquent studies that were elegant studies that really were awesome. I should have them on a guest someday but but really a neat topic and really an interesting thing when we see a presentations and social media now it is A. Massive. Overdose of confidence in the absence of real knowledge. So when you're talking about the attention economy is a term you brought up a couple of a little bit ago. How much of a big thing is this and is this Really. What is being commoditised right now even across all industries is the look at me factor that they can get through social media. Well, I think so and I think we're all complicit in that I mean I post things on my my private facebook page to get some laughs from my family and friends I mean. We re like attention I mean I just think that that's when now we now have a platform through which to get attention. It was much harder to get attention before you had to be. Dare I say more legitimate to get the attention you wanted but now you can just get it. So you know we live in this this world has fundamentally changed. Even, if if these platforms go away, they're going to be replaced with something else. So this is not going to this whole notion missing disinformation. Away. But when we link it back to this, this whole thing even about dining Kruger we all. Can Fall into those traps of. Of, Sherry misinformation were motivated differently like one of the things I really try to point out in an an extension of what I just said is we're we're kind of all brand builders. Now remember one time when peace people were were delivered of Lee building brands is because they had a business and they had a product and they had all of these things. But now we've recognized that each of US individuals can be quote unquote influencers and we can build a brand that means that the information that we create and share is influenced to by perhaps. Different motivations or incentives were incentivized differently as to how we share information and I think a lot of self awareness has to go into this process especially as advocates at as experts as ones that are trying to go out and communicate our way through some of the disinformation I think that while we while we want to. Model the the best behavior on how to share information I. Think we have to understand that we are also human beings and we can fall into traps of maybe sharing misinformation ourselves and I think that awareness is probably really important especially if we want to build up Some sort of a social competency around you know examining disinformation in how it works in our societies. So we've covered a lot of ground here today maybe the best thing to kind of wrap up with would be. What you as an expert in this area would advised to say early career scientists early career. Faculty. other folks in the sciences. What do they need to learn from social science and be cognizant of? In how they approach the public with a communications desire while I think probably you pull it back. If you're a young scientist young scholar and and if you endeavoured to be a faculty person or you want to go into the private sector wherever you're at I think one of the key things you can do and this is something that probably I didn't naturally do back in the day when we were young scholars is you need to cross those disciplinary. Boundaries you need to start talking to people from other disciplines from the social sciences and they need to start engaging with you to. This is a two way street because in order for us to understand that relationship between science and society, we have to not only be scientists. We also have to be social scientists and social scientists like me have to also be scientists we have to cross those boundaries and understand how science is broadly understood by the public and. You know again I'm back to this whole point scientific consensus. Mean Social Consensus. So we're always going to have these social factors involved social media. itself has created this this space where we can go out in these citizen journalists and we can have our so boxes and talk no matter who we are, but we have to use those those gifts or those channels responsibly with great power comes great responsibility. So I think that crossing boundaries is really important talking. Engaging understand a little bit of self awareness goes a long way in humility a sand except even as experts, we can't everything about everything. I, mean I've been in this business for twenty five plus years and I still don't understand everything and I'm never I never went understand everything. So we have to leverage our networks in the network of experts around us and build up that that build up that. Island that's open to having new. People. Attached to it but build up those networks so that we can actually communicate across these problems because you can't solve some of these really big problems like food security, our climate change in all rest of it in isolation, we can't there is no one organization company or university the can resolve all these issues we have to work at it together and that means A. Breaking down barriers to innovation that also include a disciplinary boundaries and things like that and start working together. This is why these things private public partnerships really not our why universities in companies need to continue to work together in extension you know why it matters that we have these land grant universities and why they work the way they do. So all of this matters, let's a really great point to go out on. All matters and people need to get involved they need to be building their networks and working to use communication as a way to build their dossier, build their brand. No gag me with a spoon but that's where we are So people wanted to follow you on social media where would they look at me? You look on twitter at Cami D Ryan I'm on there. I have a website under Cami Brian. I also have a public facebook page under Cami Ryan as well. So I welcome the conversations I try to keep up with all of those channels. It's not always easy and guess what I fail and slip up all the time too. So feel free to. Call me out on it and I called out probably every day and I'll admit when I'm wrong which is fine. But also stand up when I think I'm when I'm saying is right and I think that's what we should be doing my argument is you what I have a moral obligation to continue to work there and to leverage the networks I and Yet. Get insight experts like yourself. The. Weekend trying to address and mitigate some of the distant formation out there. The couldn't be more true in the Times of Cova and we didn't even touch on that today but. The moral obligation that as this pandemic. Snowballs. which will inevitably do this this fall and winter. How important it is for science scientists to be engaging and be sharing the good information. So. Thank you very much for joining me today on the podcast. And for all the rest of the audience. Thank you for joining me again on another week of talking Biotechs podcast. Continue a writer of us. We appreciate your support unpatriotic and all the other things that you do for us You are the wind beneath the wings that makes this possible. It wouldn't be the same if there were people on the side listening and presumably twigs podcast at. Our numbers continue to grow. So after five and a half years. We're still doing. Great. So thank you very much for listening and we'll talk again. Talking over cow reflect the. View of boxer govern. Doubts. Are Not the views of the University of Florida sparkled the capital students. After all science full there probably are but. That, there is no university affiliation with podcast. which is a damn shame but I got that's our goal. Don't feel free to share this science community effort. Worker Ben Gal. Support us a few shackled over on. Patriarch. We across all funds back into motion of the podcast, widen the audience. Inherent. Production. Expand fines. Efforts in many ways. Thank you for listening to the Talking Memorial Dirk Vodka.
The crisis of predatory publishers sucking the blood of science
"This is an ABC podcast. This is science fiction. Hey, I'm the Tesha Mitchell. Welcome. This week the pursuit of a predator as a reporter, you get all kinds of of little suggestions tips complaints. And you know, you can't deal with them. All this one. Intrigued me I had started to hear about similar complaints, and sort of once you hear enough of them the signal adds up. And you think oh, well, maybe there's a story here. What was I seeing what what the clues that that made you smell? A rash was a researcher myself. I was a faculty librarian at my university. And I did a research. Probably starting. Five six years ago. I was always looking for publishing opportunities. I started getting letters, and I started to receive these emails sort of saying extremely nice things to me that basically said call for paper journal editors wanting me to submit my manuscript to their journal and they had lots of grammatical errors. In addition to that one in the emails, and generally, speaking editors don't say nice things about you. And they don't typically they don't write to you and ask you to submit a manuscript will you ever attempted to submit no. I mean, I'm a clinical epidemiologist and some of these journals were lifted from soil science, why would somebody from Swail signs Bianchi me and saying nice things about me. They wouldn't know me from anywhere. He's smell. I did maybe several. But that rat will several thousand rats they now well and truly on the loose predatory publishes and the predatory journals have become a major industry global enrich and in destructive potential. In fact, you're going to hear from someone who believes these industry represents the biggest threat to science since the inquisition. The US federal court has just ordered one of the biggest of these companies to pay up over fifty million US dollars owned makes international headquartered in Hajer bed India, but also operating in the US climbs to publish more than seven hundred scientific and medical journals. It was found to employ deceptive business practices to entice on tests to other published in the journals or participating conferences, so does the ruling site by predatory publishes. Well, let's see if any of that money, actually. Moves anywhere is not clear with a group will cough up that fifty million dollars, which is an estimate of how much the company made from customers over a six-year period all whether will appeal we sent a list of questions to its representatives. But yet to receive a reply, but it is nice clear. Message to all the sake journal publishers of the world that they're being watched and their consequences. Joan by Hanan a science journalist and now director of science at an artificial intelligence startup in San Fran cold primer that basically slipping under the radar and using American Canadian European banks to move money millions of dollars of money from illicit gains. So this court ruling basically makes that extremely inconvenient to do. Now Joan was asked to present evidence. In the case brought against the group by the US Federal Trade Commission because hate head and unusual in Canada with the publisher. So. So was one of hundreds of publishers that I tested in sting operation, I root some computer code to generate thousands of very bad scientific papers. In what have been next kind of legendary in sawn circles back in twenty twelve John was reporting for the general size, and the expression predatory journals wasn't in common news. There was a guy named Jeffrey. Beal who was probably the only person around making a big public stink about this and trying to actually shine a light on it. It was a very very bold effort. He had something called feels list, or at least it became known as Beal's last Miami's Jeffrey Beal, and I'm a retired academic librarian from university of Colorado. Denver buffet, said Beal Beal's, blacklist fame and climb and notoriety. He was the first to coin the fries predatory journals of a journal publishers hated being on the list because it stigmatized them and meant that their income was decreased. Most of the predatory publishers are predatory not only in their publishing. But in just the way they operate in general, and they would use the. Heckler's veto. They would call the library director and complain about me, and they would try to annoy people at my university as much as possible in order to manipulate those people at the university to make me stop the list. So that their complaints would stop. I also received several threats of legal action, including think it was in twenty twelve international threaten to sue me for one billion dollars one billion dollars. It was just a threat what I learned from it is that you can basically pay an attorney five hundred dollars in. All right, a threatening letters. So they they did that. But they never followed through with it. It was never introduced in any court consequences for Jeffrey of running that black least would immense and I'll come back to that. One estimate suggests that there at least eight thousand predatory generals. I makes is just one publisher of many that Jeffrey Bill provocatively Kohl's it the evil empire of predatory publishing iced. I stand by that statement, and what they do is. They have really hurt a lot of people, you know, the scholarly publishing system works on the honor system and people operate in good faith, but omitted or national has has totally broken all that down. They use a lot of spamming to solicit article manuscripts from researchers. They have journal titles that match the titles of respected journals. So usually one word off enough to confuse people that might be the respected journal in the field. They will add people's names to their editorial boards without the person's permission people from top universities top researchers in the field in the to use their identity to promote the journal. And when the person finds out about it and ask them to remove their name. They don't remove it. They just leave it there because they're operating from foreign country. There's really nothing you can do about it. And they specially prey on young researchers in emerging researchers researchers who. Who don't speak English as their first language. It's not just scientists from developing countries that a targeted although that Eason acknowledged problem clinical epidemiology, David mo- assays the crosses reaches into some of America's most delayed institutions, including Harvard in analysis that we did where we looked at a close to two thousand articles published in predator journals, we found that actually the most frequent corresponding authors were from what we would call first world countries countries with lots of money and lots of resources that is troubling very very troubling. Because it suggests that at these institutions authors may not be aware of predatory journals, and we need to oversee ramp up some educational activities people think that they're sending manuscripts to a legitimate respected journal when it's religious the phony oryx international journal, and then they quickly accept the paper without any pure of you and. Then send them an invoice. And that point the authors realized that something is wrong because the there was really no period done yet, the papers accepted, and they have this two thousand dollar invoice that comes through Email in the mix demanding payment. Most of them asked to withdraw the paper when they realize that they've been duped. But then omits says you can't withdraw your paper unless you pay us withdrawal and often than omits will publish the article quickly in one of their journals. And then they can't submit it anywhere else because then that would be duplicate submission. It would be publishing the same article twice which is something not supposed to do. Nothing about predatory journals. What he's supposed to happen in science. As John Bohannon discovered when he said, the taste. Yes. So I just wanted to data. It's frustrating to have such an enticing story of you know, bad actors that potentially Ricky and millions of ill-gotten dollars and not get some hard data to find out if it's true. So we pay AM molecular biology from Oxford Oppy slave, he plotted an experiment, which was pretty straightforward. And the idea nutshell is if I submit a really, and I mean, truly bad scientific paper to your journal, and you accept it with no sign of any peer review, and you asked me for money, then you're uric journal publisher. Yeah. Joan wanted to taste how easy it was to get published in a predatory journal. It can usually take many months used even to get a pipe into a reputable scientific journal, and even then it's not a given. That's partly because of what's called peer review essential to the scientific process. So you do an experiment. Hugh, wrought it up reporting results submitted to a journal, and then it gets pulled traits by a bunch of other scientists, and so it should that's peer review, it's designed to Cape science rigorous experiments well-designed the results real usable and reproducible many predatory journals site, I conduct p review about him fact, most of them don't appear of you. They go through the motions of peer review, they might have like a stock pure view that they used for every paper that's submitted. And basically the papers are accepted and just published almost immediately as soon as the invoices. Paid. And so pure review is it's it's a fundamental component of how honest journals carry out their business of looking at manuscripts and seeing whether they're fatally flawed or whether they can be improved whether they're acceptable for publication. Dive moa is director of the Santa fa- gentle Ola g at the auto a hospital were sich institute at the university of Ottawa. Hey in colleagues just hosted a global summit on predatory journals because they want to build a consensus IVA what they are and how to shut them down. So these sorts of behaviors and many other behaviors that are not trustworthy. Jiffy Beal when something is published in a scholarly journal that doesn't represent validated science than it pollutes the whole scientific record and can't build on junk science, or if you do then the future science isn't real science either. On science fiction on VCR, Iran. We may Natasha Mitchell, we're looking at predatory publishes and the threat they pose to science scholarship been truth. So back to science journalist, John Hannan, and he's sting operation own predatory journals. You wrote effect piper. In fact, you you actually wrote a computer program to rot hundreds of spoof papers. Yeah. Actually it. Sped up. Sounds of thousands. I ended up only needing hundreds he's computer program. Change, the authors, affiliations specific, chemicals cancer, cells and other ingredients. He's experiment, but the funding was pretty much the same and this Feick study was potentially. We'll changing. Yeah. It was a thrill could Cuba. Can't at this. John. I was basically claiming that this chemical that I found in this little lichens little plant like creature was able to kill cancer cells in solution. So, you know in principle, you could inject this stuff into your blood like you doing chemotherapy, and it would hopefully kill off cancer cells. And I had these very impressive charts showing the results. Very impressive. Yeah. At Feis value the pipe is sanded convincing, but I will say in with blaring eras, and this would take literally one minute just one glance really of any reasonable science who was to review of this paper. You just look at the numbers representing this charts. And they just make no sense at all. Just don't make any sense and the design of his experiment that was finally flowed to. I mean, these are the kind of mistakes that high school student would make these this isn't even college level mistakes. This is just like the biggest most embarrassing scientific mistake. You imagine this isn't subtle. And then Joan wind Aven Fuda. I just wanted to like bring it to the next level. So at the end of the paper, I have the authors say that, you know, the next thing we're going to do is test this in humans which to any reviewer should be the biggest red flag. I mean aside from the fact the science looks like completely junk, I mean, there's just completely unethical. They target a general suspected to be predatory including two run by group. One cold medicinal chemistry. Another biology amid Essen of eight months he submitted ten pipe is awake. And what happened next is incredible any reasonable publisher should have looked to that paper and said not in no way publishing this that a lot of journals d. Give us give us the very Murray. Doc stet's. Well, the darkest of dark stats is that sixty percent of the publishers accepted, my article so didata any of those sixty percent ask you to make any kind of amendments almost never when they did. It it involved formatting trivial changes that often they would ask me to add citations two papers that they'd published which is also by the really not a good practice. But no, they almost never did any substantial review and even in the few exceptions that DDP to conduct some kind of scientific peer review Jones piper was often accepted. Anyway, even after a damning review what's more to mainstream Totten's of signs publishing Elsa v and sage cold out much to their embarrassment. It was grim. That was not a great day for scientific publishing. And so yeah, over the course of that experiment. Too much. Months to finish. I just sort of got more and more pessimistic about the publishing world, it really changed. My view of the whole industry that I was a part of some people who have been caught up in the sting deed, contact me afterwards effect, we got at least one angry letter to the editor from one of these journals that got caught with its pants down. But I don't have that much sympathy for them because they had the one job. You know, if you're the editor of journal, all you gotta do is withhold the integrity of the journal, and you clearly weren't doing that his of the mole reputable journals think expect a sense of betrayal of trust. And I wonder what you'll response to these. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely everyone craft all over. Old thing. How else would they have reacted? It was basically like taking a giant dump on their entire world. A couple of editors lost their jobs, but considering that they had jobs that a fake journal. I don't see that as such a big loss. So it he's a handful of us now in the industry. The predatory publishing industry has not gone away has not lift science infect indications that it has grown massively going strong. If you carried out the sting operation, again, what do you think might happen? I think the picture would probably be worse. If I were to do it again, though, I'll tell you what I would do is. I would send a sample papers to the publishers who have the more traditional model as well. It it's kind of a maze. Made that this whole problem that I uncovered was dismissed by many for the simple fact that I hadn't also submitted fake papers to different kinds of journals at so they felt like they were being unfairly picked on. So eat some people in the open access publishing movement. And it's a passionate movement. Did I think that you had unfairly targeted the in particular? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. They dragged me through the mud. It was really important claiming Michelle for the traditional scientific publishing world, which is hilarious. If you've know me at all, it's really quite the opposite. I'm quite an advocate for open access everything. But whatever fine, so journalist Joan Bohannon. The confusion between the open access publishing movement, and predatory journals ease perhaps for another edition of the show. It's controversial you say both charge authors to publish the pipers. Instead of slugging raiders all subscribe is with phase. So the open access argument for that. He's that that opens up scientific knowledge naval before freezing up from behind traditional journal piles, but some believe these autho pies model creates an inherent conflict of interest, and that predatory publishes of titan advantage of that in order to build prophets and the taking advantage of scientists to who had disparate to get published in the publishable perish culture of science. Some of them are taking up the offer because they're being tricked by the predatory publishers. And that's why I use the term predatory because they're preying on them. They're they're preying on their weaknesses that people need to get published. So people. Are earning degrees. People are getting promotions. At universities. People are earning tenure in some cases based on a publications in low quality fake, predatory journals that don't conduct any peer review and have almost no selectivity at all they accept everything. And we've also learned that pharmaceutical companies are publishing their research to justify the efficacy of their new medicines. And are using predatory journals to do that as well. What do you think the K drive is of the predatory general sane has been? It's easy money. As Jeffrey beals Blackley stove. Predatory journals grew in influence as did he's reputation publishes and others. Pushed back angrily at him at he's criteria for inclusion on the least at he's lone ranger approach, and he senior antagonism of open access publishing. Some went straight to his universities, later, sheep to attack his credibility. And he became a kind of hybrid of hero in pariah. Had it is university respond for the most part for the first few years. They were supportive of me and legal office. Did help me could I some tricky situations. You know that I'd gotten in because of the threats from the publishers, but towards the end, I think they grew weary of me and the support decreased we have received pressure to shut Daniel blog from your university. I received a pressure, but it wasn't pressure to shut down the block. Doug things became increasingly uncomfortable towards the end before I retired every tired of year ago. Did it become uncomfortable? The university did that some things I used to have an office, and they took me out of an office and put me into a cubicle. They hired a new person to work in the library. He had two years of library experience. And they made him be my supervisor, and you know, part of predatory publishing. There's a broader context to it. There's a social movement behind open access publishing a lot of people want to kill off the traditional publishers and have them all replaced with open access journals. So that everybody throughout the world connects us all published research, and it's very left wing social movement. And so the person that came in as my supervisor was among among those people, and so we had strikingly different ideologies about scholarly publishing. So that was way that they appreciate me. Why did you Dan bills? Least in in two thousand seventeen it has. Reincarnated with anonymous editors in some sense to protect themselves from what you went through. But why did you decide to shut it down in January about your learned that the university was working with one of the publishers on my list and the result of that was that the university initiated a research misconduct investigation against me. And I knew I hadn't engaged in any research misconduct myself because research misconduct means falsification fabrication or plagiarism by definition. And I knew I hadn't done any of that yet. They started this case against me. And I felt very stigmatized by it and that kind of sealed it for me with the university. I, you know, they take another action against me. And now here was something major research misconduct case. And that's why I decided to stop the list. What was the come of that case the outcome in July of twenty seventeen was no real? Search misconduct found headed that. Make you feel made me feel horrible. I felt like my own university that I worked at for seventeen years was turning against me. And I felt stigmatized and I felt like I really can continue the work. And that's why I shut down the blog and the lists. Do you think that Beal's least was a trigger for that action? Sure. It was the publisher that they worked with was was a big one, and the predatory publishers the ones that are doing really well are rich. They have lots and lots of money. They can hire lawyers to go after people and they can organize. Well, and there are several very large very successful predatory publishers out there, and and they have a lot of power, and they will go after anybody who threatens their income was that the publisher was frontiers. So you desist them to be predatory publisher. Yeah. I had lots of. Evidence from stuff that they had published in the published an article about Chem trails in the sky Cam spiracy, THEO. Yeah, they published an article about that which they quickly retracted after I wrote a blog post about it. They published an article saying that doesn't cause aids. So I had lots of lots of solid evidence that they weren't really conducting valid period view. I mean, that's bad science. It's not necessarily making them predatory publish plenty of crap lanes up in good journals. But it gets gets retracted and publishing junk science is one of the criteria that used to evaluate publishers. I mean, you're if you submit an article to publisher thinking, it's a good publisher when they're publishing crap science poor science that is a type of predation against on us researchers. They don't want to be associated with junk science as space in full university of Colorado Dame where Jeffrey held a tenured faculty position would not call me on any research misconduct in. Instigation but told Sant's friction the university coat defended and supported professor bills academe eight freedom to pursue predatory publishing as pot of his scholarship. Junk is the saw it seem predatory journals. You in colleagues have conducted a study to analyze the quality of the research. The studies that Mike eating too that are accepted by predatory journals what's striking divisions. Did you make the quick Chang? Co messages at the quality reporting of these articles is really horrendously bad epidemiologist dive moa at the university of oughta when we compare that to what we might consider as legitimate literature. It's very very much worse. And that's not to say that there aren't problems in the quality reporting of legitimate journal are, but when we moved to predatory journals it suggests that there's the screening that's going on. So for example, we consider peer review in a sense of screen of the integrity and the scientific composer of the research. Which is perhaps not going on many of these papers are funded by reputable agencies and so in a country like Canada where much research is paid out of taxpayer dollars. It it's really very very wasteful it scientifically, very problematic. It won't be seeing won't be cited. And of course, it's a waste of money. And it may also contribute to sort of adding layers fakeness to what people are trying to get at is the truth because they don't conduct a proper period view and their publishing bogus signs. If you have an agenda, nonscientific agenda or a pseudoscientific agenda. You can use predatory publishers to publish your work. You know to the biggest open questions in in science are what is the nature of dark matter. And what is the nature of dark energy? This is from cosmology. And there's no. Scientific consensus as to the answers to those two questions and their big big questions in cosmology and physics the biggest questions of all I think so but those questions have been answered many times in predatory journals. There's lots of people writing articles claiming that they've discovered the answers to those questions in the predatory publishers are happy to accept them as long as the authors pay the fee, and they're published. There's some out there that would happily publish your paper saying that that scenes 'cause autism or that there's no global warming occurring or that nuclear power is is going to destroy everybody a bread causes cancer. Anything you want to write you can write it, and they'll publish it long as you pay the fee dated Melissa's that like fake news. Scientists NC sins end clinicians and Nastro going to distinguish fact from fiction in predatory publications and he wants a global observatory set up to scrutinize they practices. The the problem is that many of these predatory journals. They are now making their way into trusted sources over example, for many researchers clinicians patients they may look at a PubMed put out by the national library medicine, the United States and big data vice of scientific papers a huge daughter basin. And what we see is that they're getting infiltrated with articles from predatory journals that are funded by esteemed institutions funding institutions such as the national institutes of health. And what is the patient to do? What's clinician to do will these people make decisions based on on on that sort of evidence? And I think that that's an incredibly problematic. Jeffrey Bill believes I'm mixing national will survive despite the recent US federal fifty million. Court ruling against them. But we'll save science from the sorts of publishes of predatory journals. I don't see the problem going away. In fact, in some in a lot of countries open. Access advocates have been successful at getting governments to pass laws requiring federally funded work to be published in open access journals. So there when the predatory publishers here about these laws, they are ecstatic about them because it helps them because a certain percentage of the people are going to be publishing in the predatory journals whether by mistake or or intentionally they will be the market the market is there, and it's encoded in LA now, increasingly so then had a we still the excess movement which many says a pulse ity thing you don't from being infiltrated predatory publishes. I don't know way to stop them publishers have freedom of the press. And there's really no. Laws. They're not breaking the laws in most cases, unless they engage in dentistry Pfaff door other things like that. But for the most part they're completely sanctioned by by governments because of freedom of the press. John hannan. I think we're gonna have to reinvent how we do things this old fashioned way of submitting a paper and having some mysterious peer review that no one ever sees happened behind curtain and results in. Yes. Or no, I think we may have to really put some effort into alternative models, and they do exist. It's just that. That's a big culture change, you could make pure review. Transparent. Example, you could have the review part of the record of the paper. That's really embarrassing. It's scary for most scientists to think of a world that's the norm. So there's a lot of resistance, certainly, if it's on to open up that whole he reviewed prices, and in fact, even Kratz souls, that's one way forward. Another would be you have some kind of global auditing system where you know, someone like me doing a sting operation like I did is just continuously rolling along to find out. If you're keeping your word of doing period view, that's expensive and. Unlikely to happen because everyone has to agree. To do it. Well, in some sense some base opposed to he that it's not happening at all. And that anyone pretty much anyone could establish a scientific journal poodle online. Mike it look legit and start making money, and I could make journal right now, I can do fifteen minutes. What were dress side and attach Bank out to? I mean, what do you reckon? Well on these fancy name. Should we use trillion journal of Melbourne? San francisco. Melbourne Frisco journal of. Well, we can work on that. Joan Bohannon, Geoffrey Beal and David moa joining me today and thanks for your east to the world conference on research integrity, ease on soon in Hong Kong again during of solutions beheads thanks to co produce John les studio engineer, Richard Govan and talked me on Twitter at Natasha Mitchell amount via the science fiction, website and share our podcast do that by. You've been listening to an ABC podcast. Discover more great ABC podcasts. Live radio and exclusives. On the ABC. Listen up.
Episode 025: Making Evidence-Based Practice an Everyday Reality
"Hello welcome to the better outcome. Show where we explore the possibilities of a new healthcare each episode. We bring you a conversation. Leaders across the healthcare industry exploring topics ranging from new treatment techniques and interventions to novel service delivery methods and business models. And now your host rafi salazar from rehab you. Practice solutions a leader in patient engagement and retention strategy. Let's explore the possibilities of new healthcare. Well hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of the better outcome show. I'm your host. Rafi sows are from rehab. You practice solutions before we dive into the episode today where i talk with a former colleague of mine from the university about evidence based practice and how we can implement it in daily practice. I wanted to take a moment and share some feedback that we received at the clinic. That i own proactive rehab in wellness here in augusta georgia. Now we've talked about on the show with many guests about the need to make healthcare more of a human experience how to remove it from a simple transaction to really a long term relationship with your patients with your clients so that you can get deeper can hit those precipitating factors or their underlying factors. That might be affecting patients conditioner diagnosis so about six months ago. In october we began at the clinic. We began administering a care. Survey c. a. r. e. s. survey. And it's a questionnaire that asked patients ten question and it's all about the interpersonal interactions that the patient has had with the clinician in that encounter in that healthcare encounter so everything from did. The patients feel warm welcomed and listen to during their experience at the clinic. Did they feel like they were able to tell their story. Their story was heard and that sort of thing so we just manner of of practice. Everybody comes in after they have their evil with us and they get one of these surveys. It's completely anonymous. And we received this feedback. Which i thought was a great testament to the just not so much me but the staff the clinicians and the culture that. We've built it proactive. And this person said as a clinic administrator and healthcare executive for over ten years. This experience has been refreshing. You all have to share what you have here. You were definitely winning exclamation point from beginning to end. I had a great experience and it got me thinking a little bit like. Why was this such a great experience for this patient. I happen to know the patient who is who is filling out the paperwork so i followed up with them later at the next appointments at. Hey thanks for the kind words. They just wanted to to find out what what was different about this experience or the last time you were here. Then your traditional healthcare appointment and she said quite simply that. She felt that she was being heard that she was being treated. Her words treated as a human and it just struck me that something very that. We might take for granted as healthcare practitioners as people running hospitals in healthcare systems and making decisions in order to improve efficiency and improve the quality of care. We can never forget that at the end of the day patients that end up in our clinic or in our healthcare system. Or if you're a clinician still that's treating patients that ended up across the table from your were on the exam table next to you. Ultimately want to be heard and what we can do is as clinicians as individuals is to harness the power of relationships to help our patients overcome limitations or pain or achieve their goals and chart a holistic path towards long-term healing. I mean after all. That's what real effective in value based care is all about. It's not about. I'm going to build this unit this treatment code and get reimbursed because as standard practice. It's really about Helping patients become empowered if you would towards their long-term healing if you want to know more about that It just so happens. Rehab you practice. Solutions has a program called the ultimate patient experience. And if you wanna learn more about how you can get some feedback that at your clinic you can head over to. Www dot rehab you practice. Solutions dot com slash. Up that's rehab. You practice solutions dot com slash. Up but enough of that. What are we going to talk about today on the podcast. Today i had the great pleasure of having a conversation with a former colleague of mine at augusta university. Her name is dr -til ben evita's and she's quite honestly just she's incredible. I love having conversations with her because she's one of those clinicians and one of those academics that really has a firm and solid grasp on research and research process. But she's also able to communicate it in a way and to teach students how to practically apply it in their day today. So i don't know about you. But when i was going to school and i was in grad school. Evidence based practice and research was one of those things that was highlighted as being important and it was also highlighted as being very complicated and many students that i went to school with we all graduated in we got on the world started treating patients and we never really felt like we had a firm grasp on how to take this high level. This very heavy idea of what is evidence based practice and take get an appliance into our day to day. Real life patient experiences. patient interactions. Well over the course of my time teaching at the university teaching guessing university. And they're not department. I happen to be able to co teach an evidence based practice course with teal and we took an approach. That was very different from. What was the norm when i was in school and it was entirely case space so the entire course was a there was a case example every week and we use those case examples to build in the skills for the students of how to take Let's say a research question about what is the most effective treatment. Or what is the most accurate faster diagnostic tool or whatever it was and find the research for it. Explain it to their peers and other stakeholders and then kind of road map. How they would apply it in their day to day practice so it was super eye opening to me and i know the students definitely grew in their skills as as practitioners as a result so teal and i were able to sit down and have a conversation about how clinicians can take the steps to implement evidence based practice in a real practical way in their day to day. You know depending on whatever patient interactions are having or specific clinical situations. How we can begin as clinicians kind of build our knowledge base expand our skills in our scope of knowledge into what is current according to the literature and what is truly treatments and assessments that are effective and shown to be affected by literature. We also talk a little bit about some of the problems with getting content and open access journals and how to how to wade through the climate and the environment of kind of predatory journals. And all this stuff that's out there so hopefully you walk away from this interview with this conversation with some real practical tips and tricks and strategies that you can employ in your day to day practice or if you happen to be a manager or an administrator the you can help your clinicians implement in their day to day practice to help improve care at your clinic your organization so without further ado dr -til ben evita's talking about evidence based practice and practically applying it in your day to day life. Well hey -til welcome to the show. I'm good how are you. Thanks so much for having me today. I'm doing wonderful. I'm excited about talking about this topic in particular so before we dive in why you start by telling us a little bit about yourself your work he research. And what kind of go from there super. Yeah so I'm an associate professor at augusta university. So pleased to be here. Been here since two thousand sixteen. I am primarily a research faculty. I gauge research to understand access to care for individuals on the autism spectrum across the lifespan so really trying to improve. How people are able to get access to the things. They need in order to maintain their health and wellbeing. And in addition to that i teach I primarily teach the research curriculum at augusta university research and evidence based practice and have doing that since two thousand five for quite some time Without previous institution here. And i'm so pleased to work with students to see them grow in their knowledge of evidence based practice. Which is the topic of today. Exactly yeah nice. Segue and we you know. I think i mentioned this in a pre show but you know just being able to teach so united dot evidence based practice last year. I guess but this is all like pre covid or into covid. And i really liked hal. You are one teaching it. Not only what is evidence what is evidence based practices really giving students like applicable and practical steps. You can take to kind of implementing it. Which is what we'll talk about today. So obviously a lot of your teaching is in the whole research in evidence based practice and kind of developing future students in india clinicians. That are gonna practice. Ubp what are the biggest factors you see in whether or not a clinician. Once they're out in the field is practicing what we call evidence based practice evidence based medicine or whatever. The term is these days now. I mean that's a really great question. It's fairly complex. I think that There's a couple of things that i think affect student's ability to use the skills and knowledge that they've learned about in school when they get out into practice and You know when i when i think about them I'm an ot. So i'll think about. Mainly i'll talk about the intrinsic factors within that new clinician and then also those environmental contextual factors if you will that are external to that new grad so primarily you know when we when we see students graduate and get into practice one of the biggest predictors of when they're going to use evidence in practices whether or not they feel like they have the knowledge and the confidence and competence to easily read and interpret the literature so right now the literature and cove it is coming in quite quickly And it takes a lot of time and energy to read those articles and understand the statistics and so oftentimes new grads. If they don't feel prepared or confident in being able to read that information and Interpret it they won't do it And so we really focused on developing those skills in the in the graduate program helping students practice over and over and share what they know and then check them on that learning another set of factors that really impact students as they graduate in leave and go into clinical practices their environment that they're in and so when i talked to old graduates and i read the literature about this Usually the graduates who are continuing to stay up to date are those that are in innovative practice. Settings that tend to support evidence based practice. They tend to have journal clubs. They tend to have weekly staff meetings. Where people are sharing new research or talking about research on those settings also tend to involve clinicians in reese dirge so sometimes those environments also are engaged in collaborating with researchers to understand the interventions and the assessments that they're using so the environment is really critical for those new grads And it's one reason. I always encourage our students to ask their potential employers. What kind of resources. They have to engage in evidence based practices. Yeah yeah so you laid out the groundwork either. Some intrinsic factors kind of the skills competence and then. There's the external factors of with the environment. So let's dive a little bit into the intrinsic will move into that extra Factor so what. What might be some of the reasons where a clinician. Maybe new grad doesn't feel skilled in the ability to kind of read and interpret and implement the research. Yeah that that one's challenging. I sometimes struggle with reading new statistical approaches in an article or understanding some of the more complex things that researchers are doing Every day research is not a static thing. There's new research designs that are being used. And new statistical approaches that are being implemented and i think that oftentimes the being able to read and interpret the results in the tables Confidently is is a challenge. I think for a new grad in particular It's daunting Enough one of the things. That i i don't know if you've found this to be true. Sometimes the The discussion of of a research paper is not exactly aligned as well with the results and and when people skip over that results section maybe lack of competence or confidence It can impact what they do. They might misinterpret The article so i think that the confidence and competence and interpreting statistics understanding p values effect sizes. All of those things are are pretty Pretty challenging for a lot of people. Yeah i knew. Imagine a to like if you skip over the results into the into the discussion. I'm assuming you're talking about people that are also just maybe screening like abstracts and they're screening abstracts looking for something you know. Maybe they're treating a patient with covid or maybe they're treating new novel now A diagnosis for them. So they're combing all these abstracts looking for evidence and they might just not be super super confident in even how to filter out the bad abstracts. Right oh i think absolutely that you know a a mindset that you can get into right. Which is i'm looking for. Certain evidence to support what i'm doing so i'm going to screen. I'm gonna read the abstracts. And i'm going to select the ones that Support my position. -ality on a particular approach. And i think that's a dangerous trap that people can get into if they're not going into it with the mindset of really wanting to understand is this approach or is this evaluation. I'm going to be effective. Or is this evaluation gonna be reliable or valid. So i think you bring up a really important point. That seeking to confirm once know position is is an intrinsic factor right. I mean if we go into the literature hoping to find something we'll probably gonna find something to support it but if people are not being critical thinkers when they're reading that's dangerous so sort of that confirmation bias right. Oh yeah definitely. I think we all do it but you know we just have to remind ourselves not to. Are there any tips or tricks you got for students or new has it. That are getting into this. Check themselves for for confirmation bias other than trying to be more self aware. You know one of the things that i that i frequently encourage is is Just discard a study. Because it doesn't find statistically significant results. I think automatically people look to see are the p value statistically significant and if it's not they assume that won't inform their understanding but in fact i i asked them when they when they do to the ad i ask them will if there isn't a true difference isn't that just as important as if there was a difference though you know making sure that we aren't just watching the studies that don't find differences between a treatment and the control group. I mean one reason is maybe the sample size was too small and a larger stuttered steady needs to be connected but another reason could be. Maybe there aren't true differences maybe didn't ineffective treatments between two different intervention Right so you know. That's one automatic thing that i think people do is just ditch us study because they don't find statistically significant findings but that's one way to prevent confirmation bias is to be open to studies that find significant analyzing vacant results and then really dig into see. Why yeah i think united have had this conversation before to about the skills of clinicians and all that and i think the we do need to draw delineation between your new grads in new practitioners that are coming into the field which i feel like are light years ahead in their ability to determine what is a statistically significant change. They're able to read statistics in values. A really understand what they mean. We've got a whole generation of clinicians that that might be near the end of their work life if they're kind of phasing out of profession the name they're kind of in charge right there the management of these new clinicians and they're coming from a standpoint of just not having the skills right. They were not really trained in school because evidence based practices something. That's kind of been pushed to the forefront over the last maybe fifteen twenty years where there is a whole crop clinicians that went through school. That didn't get that training right. Yeah the first ep article in. Ot that really emphasize this was a eleanor clarke. Slagle lecture back in two thousand. I think margot home it. Eleanor clarke slagle. Extra on of in space practice so we are talking about twenty years ago when it first became a big push in our in our profession. It's been around for quite a bit longer than that in other professions other medical professions. But you're right. I think that for practitioners who've been out in the field for at least that long They've had either teach themselves to search for the evidence with all these new electronic search databases on how to read the evidence And i don't know about you. But when i'm looking at the continuing education courses. I'm not seeing a lot out there as to how to interpret the evidence. I'm seeing a lot of people presenting that air approaches best. But i don't always see people teaching some of those Thoughtful approaches for really digging into what. You're reading so i agree. It's going to be some generational differences as the a cohort people who are learning and applying evidence. Move up into different positions. Yeah well. I think part of that to an continuing education courses. I wonder how much of that is like regulatory. You know like a for a a not georgia for example to renew your licence. You get so many hours that you need to do. And the bulk of those have to be direct patient care and whether or not learning how to read. Research counts as direct patient. Care really dictates. Whether or not somebody clicks purchase on that. Course absolutely yeah. I didn't even think about that. But you're you're completely correct. People are looking for those more hands on types of continuing education courses and hopefully those educators including evidence to support what they're teaching but there isn't any substitute. I think for just reading the literature interesting to that now. That's hard ella kind of in that. Same kind of segues into those extra factor. So you've got all these clinicians that might not let you say not value the understanding of of research or maybe just intimidated by because they don't have the skills or whatever and now they're managing these essentially big departments whether it be rehab departments are hospital systems. And we're creating environments that may or may not be beneficial for for new grads new clinicians. Come out in practice. Evidence based medicine right. You know i think it depends on the setting. I think you're right. I think that if It depends on the manager and it depends on the setting. I that in some settings the you know the management has to stay up with the latest literature. Even if it wasn't something may engaged to for example. I was just talking to colleagues. Who are up at the philadelphia hand center and Graduated long before. Ubp but in hand therapy for example the The surgeons are using different approaches. The healing times are different. Because of new materials or new suture approaches or whatever it might be and the ham therapists are really on it. I mean they have a ton of new literature all the time to synthesize and adopt clinical protocols and so from that perspective that environment even though there are a number of an older clinicians may have been. I don't wanna safe or but it's part of the ethos of that environment right and again. That's that external support so because it's emphasized because it's probably part of that team approach where you have the physician. The surgeon the the therapist the hand their best all talking about evidence if the therapist is up on their ep game. They're not gonna feel very much a part of that team. And so i think that in those types of settings the clinicians are are staying up with the literature in fact probably much more than another settings I think though that if you have clinicians of maybe ben and private pediatric practice are lying. Older literature Maybe don't have the resources in terms of funding to to pay for access to articles that are sometimes thirty or forty dollars Then it becomes a lot harder and quite frankly. The evidence based on that is slower than hand therapy You know the evidence in pediatrics is much slower kamau. I'm still reading things that are talking about anything that we published. Twenty years ago i am. We're not seeing advances in pushing the envelope as to what we need advanced practice in certain practice areas and so it could be the clinicians right but it could also be the way funding structure to support different practice areas. It could be the what gets in. What does And so. I'm not as quick to put the blame on on clinicians older. Although i do think that there are some things that reinforce people seeking out the literature you know like the financial pieces or a lack of literature. Every time i go to search not finding very much right. I mean i think we hear that quite a bit uncertain practice areas for quite some time. I think mental health was quite stagnant. But now it's growing when you bring up a good point to by the financial thing to like when you're talking about finding maybe three or even just three or four articles and their fifty bucks a pop forty bucks a pop. Whatever you're talking a couple hundred dollars to figure out whether or not this treatment technique is even worth it. It's hard for a clinician. That's may or may not be being paid. In addition to what they're currently salary is a lot of people. Don't have a little stipend to go do research right and and i think that you know this brings you back to that regulatory piece. Right which is said. Every clinician has engaged in continuing education. I was pleased to see that in georgia even for nbc ot licensor Doing critical review of an article counts towards those Elements of maintaining practice. Because it is expensive. I mean it's it is a financial investment and You know those clinicians if they're seeking out and they have the funds to do it then you d partner with academic institutions so we can send them. Our students and the students can be working to help us evidence right. I mean partner. With an academic institution take field students. And then ask your students to obtain access to the other. Close unita run. That's that was our strategy longtime against in some soon. So y'all actually in the next couple of weeks at my clinic and i'm like start thinking about what we wanted to pull a research. I think we talked. We talked off line last time kind of around this whole issue of access right like some some organizations publishers that sort of thing a really restricting access to their their articles they they see them as intellectual property and a lotta times like the researchers aren't getting those forty dollars for each time. That article is sold. That's going straight to the publisher. So there's like a financial incentive to kind of keep us pay walls up but during the last year there's been some opening of that right like some more open access journals and that sort of thing. Yeah you know I'm not sure to what extent. Kobe has impacted. I'm sure you've probably a lot more than than a but You know the open access movement really started. I wanna say back. In two thousand ten ish people started really talk about open access journals. And it's it's hard because there's a for researchers anyway there's a really Unclear line between predatory journals that are just seeking to take your money at. It doesn't matter whether or not it's equality article. It just matters that you pay them money and they'll put it out much for or something like that but there are some reputable open access journals like british medical journal and p. l. o. s. one yellow s medicine a lot of those in those situations and those types of reputable open access journals. The researcher pays or it's a funder of the of the. That's paying the researcher to do that. Work will pay and usually the article costs about three thousand dollars to publish. So if i was to have an article accepted those journals would say. Do you wanna publish it open access. And if i choose yes i pay a fee of about three thousand dollars And then everyone can get it free of charge and so. The researcher doesn't by the way make any money even offers open access wants. The money is still being. Paid to the publisher. It's just making it freely available to everyone else which is a good model to follow because it means that the research is more quickly implemented into practice. I mean i think the going number right now for time between study being published it turning into a practice. You know something that's done is seven years is that is that what you also which is a long time especially since those researchers have worked hard to get those things out there as quickly as possible but practice practice change takes part of that is knowledge translation and all that as well Part of what. I'm thinking about this open access movement. Part of me is excited. Because i believe like access to information should be free should near the internet has allowed us to bring information the masses. But how do we we prevent canada pendulum swinging the other way if you would from this this one area it's very locked up. You need to pay to pay to get your research articles almost to the other way where it's kind of like the wild west and like anyone with a blog and can pose that. Something's accurate when it's really not like how. How do we kind of wade through this vast array of open access journals and find which reputable which aren and where we should be spending our attention. That's a that's a loaded question. I mean that's the million dollar question right there. You can figure that out. You know. I think Particularly in cova. That's been challenging. Here's why in Pre covid the the need or desire for certain types of research didn't push Sort of the speed of publication up so much. I mean there's obviously some types of research that need to be published quickly but there hasn't been a need for something in one particular area light covid now. People need information and they needed quickly because people are sick ill and dying And so what ended up happening over the past year is we saw shift towards people posting pre publication results so non peer reviewed evidence on pre print servers with very little oversight of the research and There have been a number of retractions of that research after it's been After it's put out there but people still continue to rely on it so that's a concern An you're asking. How do we prevent that from happening. We're seeing it happened right now because of covid. But i don't know if we're going to be able to put that back in. The box of is something we aren't going to be doing. I think a lot of people have found value in posting the results into a pre print server It increases the access decreases the time from finishing a study to publication That makes it harder for clinicians to know what's reputable. I mean that was your question. How do we know what to select. What is what has been peer reviewed there used to be a predatory journalist that that was published And some of the journals that were on that list sued happenings removed from that list. So it's no longer publicly available but there are some sort of websites that will tell you like. These are predatory journals but i notice our students pulling from them. I mean i i notice. Our students don't know. I mean it sounds like a great journal like the international journal of whatever and there's really no clear indication that it's a predatory journal that has not pay pay the bush. I don't know what thoughts do you have on that. you know. it's it's a complicated issue. Because i do think that obviously during during something like the the pandemic where we're trying to get information out there very very quickly like we can't wait for the peer review process right and there are problems with the peer review process as far as you know whether or not something decides to get published because well you know. The the results are or are not politically motivated. And all that. But i do feel like for the vast majority just from like a behavioral psychology standpoint. People go for easy right and if the the ask of evidence based practice is already hard enough to put the added burden of well. Now you need to go through and look through these pre print servers and determine for yourself whether or not this is a research and data that we should be using is a very hard sal. I think for people what you're probably gonna have is people that scroll through. They see something again. We're humans cognitive bias confirmation bias. Let's say oh look. This is data from a researcher. It's gotta be right because it confirms. I believe yada yada yada. So it's a it's a tough nut to crack for sure i now. I'm not sure what You know. I think i think once one thing we're going to have to do is start teaching our graduates. How you tell whether or not something is A reputable journal right where we teach people how to critique study design and read statistics. But i mean There are some. I how i'll have to share with you. There is some research down where a group of researchers said. We're just going to see if we can scam the system. We're going to write up a sounding study right. It sounds great. Study design sounds perfect. We're gonna make up all the data we're gonna try and get through. Peer review process was Because they wanted to show that it doesn't quite matter what you do as long as you're right the right things right. Use the right words and they were able to get it published and then they. They revealed that You know this is this study and it was a real eye opener for people like on on my end. I do Editorial board. I'm an editorial board of two different journals age and the autism and adult journals and we noticed that this was happening so when we read studies as an editor we have to be thinking is this is this a real study. Is this plausible. Is that feasible. Are these real people. Is this their expertise and before we sent out for review but studies are being posted on a pre print server. There isn't doing that right. People can really choose to put whatever they want out there So i i think you know. My recommendation is for clinicians. Continue to rely on peer reviewed evidence. Unless you're really confident in Reading research i wouldn't use some of that. Pre print server stuff honestly bay shirts invalidated. Make sure it's been vetted invalidated or rely on a group thing you know if you find a good article on. You're not super confident in it and its reprint for something new like cova a critique it with a group of people so that you're aware of the potential major biopsies that are playing so i i mean i don't really know if there's going to be another solution. Dissolution has any right. The last question here that we got is. What practical strategies. Could you give a clinician to implement kind of the habit of not just a habit of evidence based practice but more more specifically the habit of searching for in utilizing the evidence. Rice like practices is a really big kind of nebulous term. But really what we're talking about is searching the evidence kind of critiquing it and then using it or not using it right. Yeah yeah. I mean i think the most the most effective tool is practice. I mean how many times do you have to taste food before. It's okay to you right. How many in a new habit before it becomes second nature so what we try to do. In an education setting any way is just ask students to practicing low stakes. Practice search search for evidence. You know we're gonna give you Ten fifteen minutes to find article for this clinical case and use of skills. The more people practice than the more quickly. Those habits will become ingrained. It won't be as hard usually when students come in to a program. It takes them about an hour to an hour and a half to do a search of the literature. My goal is by the time they lied about a year later. They can do it in about ten to fifteen and we get there So practiced that's the first strategy. The second strategy is to do it in a group. So i think it's always more fun to do journal clubs with others and there's a lot of evidence actually to support journal clubs as an effective way to engage in evidence based practice so sharing the burden of finding the evidence in critiquing at and then talking about it in a rotating way in journal club helps people to stay engaged without You know having a having to be the one responsible for the critique every week so i think employers and clinicians if they can find a group of people they enjoy meeting with and talking about this. Make it fun bring food. You know do something that is enjoyable. Go to the coffee shop. I mean there's other ways to make it fun too but you know. Is this a family show. Now bring a bottle wine. But no you can edit that out that i think that you know are not aspect of a and what we get. Confirm your thought but others might be reading it with a different mindset in so doing it in a social setting is helpful to practice gauge and journal clubs or other social reviews of the literature and then The third thing i recommend clinicians do is partner with an academic setting who can Both support your evidence needs. We talked about finances being. You know if you take a level one student once a year you can you know ask. That student engage in this process. They should be skilled in it and they can help you find evidence as well so i always think that students are really helpful. way of promoting that in settings where there might not be the financial or time resources so take filbert students and partner with an academic setting an academic settings are willing to do that. They want to do that. We we want to see those collaborations and so those are the three main things i guess. And then i guess you know maybe the fourth one and this a little bit harder to you is when you're interviewing for new job. Ask demand put it in writing. I want access to x amount of money per year to allow me to purchase articles. Or i'd like to purchase a subscription to whatever journal and i'd like that to be part of my compensation package. We don't see people asking for what they need right. I mean i think that should be a part of our daily practice and then if employers not providing it they you can ask so. That's something that clinicians can do. I think that's a little bit harder of a sell in some places but Those are the things that i would think. Think of doing. Yeah that's a great list. That's awesome thanks so much for taking the time being on the show if people want to find out about you and your research. We're going to do that So our augusta university faculty profile pages are up. I'm happy to share that link with you and you can also reach me at t. Ben evita's at augusta dot edu. I'm happy to share that email with you as well sure. Yeah we'll look to all the shots. Thanks so much. thank you again. I was going to see you and talk about this important topic. All right thanks for having me. Well hope you enjoyed that conversation with -til about how you can take this giant somewhat intimidating notion of evidence based practice and apply it in day to day day to day practice. Or if you're like. I said if you're a administrator or manager and your you have a team of clinicians how you can mentor them into making evidence based practice part of their daily routine part of their professional development. If you would because again we're all trying to do what is best for the patient and that means making decisions based off the best available evidence at the time right. I think listening back to our the conversation. It became again really apparent. How much of a multifaceted issue. this is. Not something as simple as Trainings training clinicians on how to look at the evidence or do anything with the research or find the use the key words. there's also the added complication of the time that is involved in doing it. The resources that are available. I mean some of these studies. You know forty fifty bucks a pop to buy a research study to to read it like you do that for every single patient of your day and your you know. Maybe you're looking for one or two articles that adds up really quickly and then it doesn't get any easier. By the fact that there are these predatory open access journals. So it's definitely a tough nut to crack. But i'm very grateful for -til for taking the time just to share with us some of her insights in her Tips and strategies on that just. Because it's again it's a really important a really important topic that has direct impact on the quality of care that we deliver to our to our patients So yeah that's all. I've got to say about that topic. 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The Ballad of Doctor Orgasm
"Iheartradio and the US Census Bureau wanted to do something special for the class of twenty twenty, so we made commencement a new podcast with words of inspiration from the biggest names like John Legend Tim Cook and Kesse listen to iheartradio new podcast commencement in partnership with the twenty two thousand census speeches drop may fifteenth on Iheartradio, APP or wherever you get your podcasts, remember you can do something that will affect the next ten years so if you lived in a dorm, don't worry. Your school will count you if you didn't visit twenty twenty census dot Gov Slash Grad to be counted. acoss twenty twenty. We know things have been super weird lately. You were robbed of a graduation ceremony, so we found some people to write you Clinton. Speeches John Legend. He's a flurry. Clinton, she's into over twenty of your favorites from Dj College Coach K. Abby Wambach to halls. They're all here to give you the wisdom that we could all use right now. Listen to iheartradio new podcast commencement speech drop may fifteenth iheartradio APP aunts and they may seventeenth across all IHEART. Radio stations brought to you by state farm like a good neighbor day farmers, they're. Welcome back to behind the bastards legally the only podcast on the Internet so I I hope. You all have no other choices so I I'm sure we've got. We've got a big audience today of the entire world listening and as I have used my congressional connections to ban all other podcasts any other podcast. You're listening to our our. PODCAST now which actually makes mine less cool. This is probably a bad call. In any case, this is a show about bad people. The very worst people in all of history and my guest today Cherie money. For us. That's. How do you feel about me? Gas letting my audience about the fact that there are no other podcasts in order to keep them. Keep them locked into to my content. Stream I'm actually. Found it very entertaining and ingenious in a way. I wasn't expecting. I think making them believe. This is the only source you know you're making. You're making yourself essential to them. You're you're there Yeah, people talk a lot about the downsides of gas lighting, but nobody talks about how good it can be for making money with the podcast, the reality, the inverse the in versus the reality is, there's so much to be consumed, but you just constantly telling them there isn't. That's pretty smart. I will say though the word ingenious doesn't make that much sense to me. This is a side note. Completely a semantic I yeah thing I just realized that genius is smart, but then ingenious should being not smart, just because of the way that prefix is usually used, but in this case it means even more smart. My own. This is how my brain works now. I don't know how to have conversations. It's very I I'm frustrated by ingenious and I'm frustrated by inflammable and I know there's like a small cadre of of Grammar Obsessive. Who have we'll explain how it completely makes sense that both of those words mean what they mean I. I don't care. I disagree with Grammar. Regular? Regular disagree with Grammar, often me to me. So Cherie you are the CO host of the ethnically ambiguous podcast and my friend and Co worker and you know in a really talented filmmaker Donna talented filmmaker, winning filmmaker and there's really. No other way to to just launch into this. Episode by saying how do you? Feel about orgasms. You're welcome per booking on the. now I know why. Sophie told me I was coming in line and now. I was thinking about what I was getting myself into before I turned on and microphone before I agree to jump on this call. This was not anywhere in the realm of my. Okay well I. Think Orgasms are great. Yeah. I wouldn't know personally if we're really WANNA get intimate here right off. Has it been even three minutes in this podcast I've never had one so four. Wow okay, well, Yeah, that actually is kind of on topic. Charene because Yeah! That's elected for this on purpose. Or is this this is? This can't be a coincidence now. Just say yeah. I thought IT'D BE A. We talk about Griffin's together in our subject today as a griffin so I thought you'd enjoy talking about him. and I decided to open things with that incredibly inflammatory question because because it's my podcast and I'm a monster. Is The question relevant? Yes, it's extremely rowdy. She s where we're talking about a guy who goes by the nickname Dr Orgasm so it's probably not a surprise to anyone listening or any of us that men and women have have very different orgasm experiences, and this is rooted heavily in evolutionary biology. And one of the things that illustrates this difference is the incredible density of studies and articles about studies all trying to unravel what's often described like the mystery of the of the vaginal orgasm It's seen. Yeah, yeah, and it's I. Mean this is really funny to be okay. I need to like. Be Candid here. Sure during this whole quarantine thing the. The the. Me Not having me not experiencing this feeling that everyone else seems to relish in has been this like thorn in my side for like most of my adult life and I think. This this whole entire quarantine time I've been doing like a lot of research on this to be honest about like why somewhere have more trouble than others like what it means to actually let go and like experience and receive pleasure like I have a lot of difficulty receiving good things including even just like feeling. Nice and I've been this is. This is actually hilarious that we're talking about this. 'cause I've been linked genuinely like studying like. Yeah, like the ways to make myself feel okay enough to experience this thing that has always been this like this inside joke. Could everyone else understood and I also think women talking about this pressure? They don't talk about it enough like I. Don't think the go society at large talks about women. Trying to overcome this pressure, if they are not like already in the know of how to utilize or like, receive pleasure, and so anyways I feel like I've done my homework even without meaning to. I had I did not know this about you going into the episode, but that's actually. Going to be helpful in in terms of trying to like parse this out because this is a more confusing episode, it's not impossible. This is a medical doctor. WHO claims to be able to. Cure. Women's who have who have trouble or an inability to have orgasms and for a number of reasons. I'm fairly certain. He's Grigor. But you can find some people. Some women who who say that he helped them, and it's a very complicated story, and it's more complicated. Due to the fact that like we as I'm sure like you has suggested we don't really have a great. We don't really have a great scientific lockdown on the vaginal orgasm right. It's it's. There's a lot that's kind of up in the air about it from a research. I mean everyone's are so different I. think yeah boils down to. There's no like there's no interest like. I don't know to put to be crew. There's no pumping. You're just like you until something comes out. It's not like I don't know I. Mean Literally have a button that you can press. Yeah. It's it's not for men, or it's not for people with people with with What's the most appropriate wing Dang doodles The winding noodle orgasm is is a pretty simple thing. Right Yes, it's straightforward itself and Tori, but I think like. I DON'T WANNA! Get sorry. I keep taking over this conversation. MEAN! You're the that that's why you're here. Please take take it over so when you're a boy when you're a prepubescent boy like it's, it's understood that you're going to be going through changes that you're going to be going through puberty, and that means like exploring your body like a wet dream for a guy is a pretty standard point of. For girls you're never. Encouraged or even told. For yourself and that makes you feel even not even on purpose, but it makes you feel a lot of shame about your body, and I was raised pretty sheltered and I didn't I. Remember Really Disliking I. I was disgusted by my genitals like I, didn't understand them didn't under like I. There was a good portion of time before I like embrace my sexuality, and I'm still like overcoming those things now because of how your raise girl is like, shut it down and to protect yourself, and to not be a sexual being because that invites. Unwanted attention and so. I think being raised like that, and never like being encouraged to explore yourself. It leads to adult women. Needing to figure it out even after the he had sex for the first time the second time thirtieth time or whatever? Yeah. Sorry? No, no, no, no! Yeah it's it's one of the other things that it does is because there's so little conversation about this and especially so little conversation. That's like had an a a kind of. I don't know structured way like our our our educational system doesn't build this in and most parents feel too awkward to really talk about and so because. A lot of women don't ever get to have these conversations and grow up like with this thing like I I don't know how to experience this I. Don't know how to like. Get like like this. This kind of mystery about their own bodies whenever there is a black hole of knowledge like that it provides an incredible opportunity to. It's the same reason why when you have a huge virus it right like all these people start cropping up and and are able to make claims like Oh we know. Had I know how to cure this? I know how to treat. This is because like this weird mysterious thing that people don't understand how is is a problem, and there's kind of a vacuum of official information, and there's lot of there's actually like a pretty decent sized industry of who touched women who are aren't able to orgasm or don't orgasm as often as they want to like. That's a big like even when I was in India, there were huge like tantric sex. Institutes and like if you spent enough time in the towns where they were located, you would start hearing stories about the men who ran them, and they were like almost I'm not gonNA say the tantric sex is bad, but all of these all of these guys were basically cult leaders right like this. It's just this this thing that happens. and. Yeah? Yeah, it was origin, and it makes me so enraged because I understand that like. Like. Like the desperation to just fuel something that. You're you're led to believe is like a very human primal thing, and you feel. You feel almost broken that you can't experience it coming from my experience like I. Maybe I was just. Maybe it's too late for like maybe I wasn't raised correctly or maybe. It's. My. Why can't my body do this? And so you become an adult and you become so desperate to figure out how to do these things I can. I can see someone getting misled. Just because you're desperation will lead you to do that and and it's it's really. intimate end brutal thing to experience in with yourself to to have being advantage of is so criminal Ni- Pinon because. It's just. Out I'm just mad. You'll get. You'll get. On the show, so, but before we get into this specific orgasm, Griffin I do WanNa talk. I wanted to go over a little bit of like Guillaume Research. So just to kind of talk about like what's out there right now? which will help explain some things that are going to come into the story later on so? Again there's not a lot that's like ironed out known for sure about the vaginal orgasm, some researchers suggest that that they play a psychological role in reproduction. Obviously, there's no question about the role of the male orgasm in reproduction, but there is a question for. Yeah the vaginal orgasm and I The researchers who suggest a psychological role say that basically because these orgasms feel good, it makes people with Vaginas when I have more sex, which leads to more babies, and this is like pretty logical right you can. At least you can see a through line there So. One thing that these folks will point out is that solitary animals such as cats have what's called male induced ovulation and that's where an egg is only released. From the ovary during sex. And there is evidence that cats orgasm. In case you were curious we know they released proactive hormone that human ladies get flooded with when they orgasm and when they oscillate he doesn't sixteen study. I found suggested that the hormone release with the Orgasm is probably an evolutionary holdover from when our ancestors moved from induced ovulation cats to these spontaneous ovulation that that we currently enjoy enjoy might be the wrong word there, but like yeah, so that's that's one theory. And this study suggested that once ovulation once like in our evolutionary time whenever ovulation stopped depending on like a a man or a penis getting in there the clitoris moved from inside the vaginal canal to its current position in one piece of good news from all of this is that the clitoris evolutionary speaking is not going to go away anytime soon. the penis evolves from the same part of the embryo so as long as There are wing doodles there will be clitoris is so that's good news. If anyone was worried about losing those in a couple of thousand years, science says the. Yeah Yeah I was concerned. It also means that men are going to keep their nipples. Yeah I was. Useless! Yeah, well, no, they are not. They absolutely are not. WADA EUSKERA male nipples? You can hang stuff off them. That's mostly yeah. So. Yeah I I think that's that's good background to get because the medical gifter we're talking about today. is a doctor who claims to be able to vastly increase the likelihood in quality of women's Orgasms, and he does this by injecting their own blood back into their labia. Yeah, this is probably nonsense, although it is not definitively nonsense, because the exact kind of treatment, this guy is using is still something that's that's being studied. But. This is a case where there. It's possible. There's some validity to what he's doing medically, but the doctor himself is absolutely a piece of shit in gritter. And the fact that he has a huge population helped me more. Yeah, yeah. I'm intrigued. Yeah, this is this is an interesting one. So the fact that this doctor has a sizeable population of interested customer is due in large part to the fact that as we kind of lead this episode, talking about vaginal and clitoral orgasm are actually pretty rare people with penises report orgasms about ninety five percent of the time and heterosexual. while people with vaginas report orgasms only about fifty percent of the time the reasons for this are hotly debated, but they actually Kinda seem pretty obvious to me. Based on just the data, so for one thing age, education and income all increase the likelihood of Orgasm for people with China's yeah, and this suggests that knowledge in particularly kind of knowledge of oneself and one's biology increases your odds as a Jonah Hafer of having an orgasm forty-nine percent. Yeah, Yeah Yeah. Only about forty nine percent of people vaginas orgasm from casual sex while seventy percent orgasm in committed relationships and to me the suggests the same thing which is that orgasms, or at least somewhat a project of knowledge and having a partner who knows your bits, increases your chance of having an orgasm, and I will say I like say the word masturbation earlier when I was talking about like exploring your body or anything but I do think. The fact that we don't talk about women masturbating and like we're not really like they're i. mean like now they're. Being more progressive is certain section of like youth. That's like really all about talking about it, but when I was growing up. I didn't master be like I didn't know how I do. Know I still low key. Don't really know how so because it's just I'm not I'm still trying to understand. Like. How To receive pleasure, I'm so bad at receiving little only compliment or like. How was it received a fucking orgasm for myself? but I think our obsession with only talking about. Pleasure and meal masturbation leads women to never understand like they don't have the knowledge about how to to feel good sexually because they're not encouraged to it, and there's so much shame around it and even like I, remember watching porn and I was like a teenager purely as like. Studying just wanted to understand what it like what people were up to? What was the thing I was missing? And every time they would show like a woman masturbating it. Was this like just crude like this. It was just so. It wasn't good enough. It didn't I didn't work. I don't know if that makes sense is just seem too easy. Sorry I keep getting distracted I'm just no no no bring Shit Robert. Yeah Shit it. I mean you're not you're. You're very far from alone in that? Because like you know, the data suggests like this is a hugely common problem. just in general people who have vaginas not orgasms as often as they would prefer. is is very common, and there are actually quite a lot of women who have what's called female orgasmic disorder, and that's exactly what it sounds like. It's an inability. To Orgasm and it is also incredibly treatable. Sex Therapy is successful sixty five to eighty five percent of the time. Yeah. Yeah Yeah! That is a thing that exists. There's treatment options and the data suggests that they are very. They are very often effective. But those numbers still leave a lot of unsatisfied people with jobs out there, and unluckily for them. Dr Charles Reynolds is around to take their money. Charles Reynolds is the inventor of the Oh shot a controversial therapy to correct a lack of vaginal orgasms Dr. Reynolds has been branded Dr Orgasm by some, and he's a big old piece of shit now. If you've not heard about his shot, you may have heard about his other. Groundbreaking Medical Treatments the vampire facial. This is the guy who did the vampire facial. Yeah? Same, do yes the same guy. The vampire breast list. But like coming from a guy, I'm already wary of anyone. That's like I can give I can give. Women were orgasms. Like what are the woman? No, the most intimately to do that like I'm already like I'm intrigued only because like I'm so fascinated by the subject, but I think just by default that information that claim coming from a guy is already kind of lose credibility for me because he'll never understand whatever China is capable of you know what I mean. Yeah Yeah, you won't. You won't change your opinion on that over the course of this episode. So in addition to the vampire facial in the vampire breast lift a doctor Reynolds is the inventor of the PREPA shot which is a needle that you shoot into your Dick. To Make Your Dick Orgasm better so he's He's the he has picked. He's picked path for himself and his path is. His Path is something out people's blood, and then shooting it back into pieces of them to to gain kind of unclear medical benefits like that's the thing. and the specific medical treatment that he is involved in and that really all of his his his treatments are. The specific met medical treatment that he focuses on that kind of all of these different things are a type of is called platelet rich plasma plasma. Injection or PRP injections or pure therapy? Yeah yeah, it's mostly when it comes to like skin rejuvenation, yes, increasing cell turnover and all that stuff, yeah! I I. Don't think it's like I think they're still as far as I. Know The the. Still as far as very much bullshit, or yeah, we'll talk some. It certainly grown more popular over the years and and for folks who don't know you're familiar with, and he has a lot of people have have are somewhat familiar with this, but the basic idea is that a patient's blood is drawn out and then put through a centrifuge. The centrifuge concentrates all of the platelets which are the blood cells that are largely responsible for the fact that your blood has healing functions. Those platelets are then sucked back up and then injected into damaged or diseased body tissue in order to stimulate healing. And obviously it makes sense that people would try as therapy right like the lot. There's logic to like. Oh, yeah I can see how if you concentrate like the healy parts of the blood, and then shoot it into wounded. Yeah, maybe that'll work. It's it's very certainly falls under the the list of medical treatments as like. Yeah, it was worth a shot. People should have given it a yeah. We'll give it a go. But I got really popular just with like celebrities and stuff. Yeah, not like wounded or damage scanner. To increase. Marketed as a youthful fountain. Exactly and it started the very first Pierre. P. Therapies were for in sports, medicine, enlarge the way for professional athletes in the like two more rapidly heal from rotator cuff, injuries and sorta similar. Wounds the kind of stuff that like you know a lot of times you like an ankle. You Fuck your rotator cuff up. You fuck up a knee and like it kind of stays a little bit fucked up forever, and so this was kind of. They were trying to figure out how to deal with that right like we can celebrate the bodies he links connects shit fix. Yeah, and there are. There are some professional athletes and. And stuff who swear by this treatment, the actual scientific data on how well that works is very muddled. I found a systematic review in the Cochran Library that analyzed nineteen studies on PRP therapies and when they did a bias analysis, only three of these studies were judged to be at low risk of bias, because obviously a lot of people with financial interests in PR therapy, working fund studies into whether or not PRP therapy works. But even when they kind of excluded the biased studies, the existence didn't show evidence of any significant effect from PRP therapy. There is some evidence that it might help reduce pain, but that's really about all. We can say conclusively. There's a decent amount of evidence that it can help. Reduce Pain when you're healing from an injury. In certain circumstances, there's really not nothing hard to support the the claims that accelerates healing which doesn't mean that it doesn't because this is still pretty new, but like the the the jury is definitely still out and of course there's there is no clinical. I want to get this right out of the way. There is zero clinical evidence that it helps with work. Like like not not a drop is just a wild. Progression of like yeah, where else can I put blood? People are stuck someone's blood. Yeah. Yeah put one of the things. He's kind of taking advantage of that surprisingly enough like labial tissue. You actually do this kind of stuff and it doesn't really hurt. Because the place that he injects it into. There's actually not a lot of like you don't have a ton of a you. Don't like of that. Area is in super-sensitive like there's actually parts that aren't because it's meant to tear apart during childbirth and stuff I. Was Very. Nice. Yeah sorry, no, but. This is. Where we came from like we. I could see how someone can rationalize this because when you are. When you'RE ORGASM ING when you're supposed to receive pleasure, all the blood is supposed to rush there so that I could kind of rationalize this this this concept of like well if you're having trouble. I'll just put blood where you're supposed to have blood, and then then everything is solved, but it's not yeah like all of the best shit medicine it. There's a level to which it makes kind of intuitive sense like Oh. Yeah, this I can. If you explain the idea of the treatment to someone. Just a random person on the street I. Think most people be like okay I can see how that might work like. It's not inherently nonsense. The data suggests that it is, but it's the idea itself. It does kind of fall under the yeah. Probably, it was worth trying right. Right. Oh, my Gosh, you know what won't inject your own blood back into your genitalia. The products and services that support this podcast have never done that unless we are running an ad for. For the shot in which case please don't get that until you finish listening to the podcast. iheartradio and the US. Census Bureau wanted to do something special for the class of twenty twenty, so we made commencement a new podcast with words of inspiration from the big names like John Legend Tim. Cook and cash listen to iheartradio new podcast commencement in partnership with the two thousand twenty cents census speeches drop fifteen on the iheartradio APP or wherever you get your podcasts, remember you can do something that will affect the next ten years so if you lived in a dorm, don't worry. Your school will count you if you didn't visit twenty twenty cents. This dot Gov Slash Grad to be counted. Merit Evans hosted behind the bastards and read about horrible people and things for a living It can be a bit of a bummer. My mental health is not always the greatest, and if you're listening to my show, I'm GonNa Guess. Maybe you're mental. Health isn't always the greatest to therapies. Great counseling is great, but it's often expensive and maybe doesn't fit in well with your life. That's why I'm here to talk to you today. About better help online counseling. Better help offers licensed counselors who can help you with your depression with your anxiety with grief. Stress Trauma, whatever it. It is you're dealing with. You can connect privately with the counselor. You need to do it through text or through chat phone through video calls. Whatever's more comfortable for you? You can get help on your own time, and at your own pace, and at an affordable rate, and right now behind the bastards listeners getting ten percent off their first month with better help with discount code behind, so if you want that ten percent discount, and you know a path to hopefully some better mental health go to better help, dot com slash behind again. That's better help. Dot Com slash behind. We're back. Okay who? Journey so. Speaking of journeys before I start talking about how the shot came to be. I WanNa talk a little bit about the clinical background of its inventor one, Doctor. Charles Runs Aka Dr Orgasm now. I became aware of Dear Charles through the writing of one. Doctor Jin Gunter. an OB gyn, and an author of a book called the giant Bible She is professionally angry at scammers who pushed nonsense medicine on the vagina of the world, and she is not a fan of Dr Ronald. I love her already, yeah! Yeah, she's she. She seems to know what she's talking about. She certainly has the professional qualifications to to be talking about this subject. Absolutely I just love an angry woman. You know I just love an angry woman. That's all it is. Yes. She's really angry. And I moved low key, not low key, because like a third of my content is based on one of my very favorite genres of thing on the Internet is like furious doctors writing about like medical scampers. I love that Shit. so as Dr Jen Gutter points out Dr Ronald. The Doctor Orgasm is. Medicine doctor in internal medicine, doctors training does not focus very much on the vagina during his medical school Charles, Reynolds likely spent a pretty minimal amount of time studying gynecology He may have done a few months of residency at a gynaecological clinic, but that would have been the most, so if this orgasm doctor doesn't have a background in gynecology. What's his background in? Well on his own website, Dr Ronald says that his first love was medical research, and he lists his chief medical hero as Dr Verner forsman in Nineteen, twenty nine forsman performed the very first heart catheterization on his own heart. And he this. Verner forcement is a legitimate medical. Bad Ass runs writes that this guy quote tied the nurse down and cast his own heart, then walked up three flights of stairs in order to photograph it. And this is largely accurate, although the truth is that the nurse agreed to let Dr Forsman tie her up because he needed clean instruments, and she had access to them, and he might die doing this and he didn't want her to get in trouble, so it was kind of like they were kind of doing this so that if he died doing this, she wouldn't get blamed for it. That's why he tied her up. But yeah, it's a cool story. It's actually like a really awesome. Medically, the nick or something yeah. FORSMAN had this theory about how you could have. Catheter is a heart, and he had been denied at ten a permission to attempt it because it was seen as too dangerous, so he decided he had to work out. Do It on himself, and he worked at a deal with the nurse so that they could do this, not endanger her life and career. Why Dr! Ronald idolizes Dr. forcement will become clear presently for right now. It's important for people to know that forces spent a lot of his life reviled by the medical community for his irresponsible self experimentation. He was only recognized as genius. After World War Two with finally received the Nobel Prize, Dr Forsman spent most of his life as a humble grunt medical practitioner, he was a German military doctor in vitro, too, so he worked with the Nazi army, but he was treating wounded. People which is I guess the least objectionable job. You can have in Nazi Germany. And then he was like a a town Dr, like he was like a small town like family physician for years and years and years. After he won the Nobel Prize. He was actually offered a fancy job running a German cardiovascular institute and he turned this down because he felt like he didn't know enough to do the job well like he, he was like he was a very humble man. In other words so Dr Ronald idolizes this man and there's a lot to idolize and Dr Men Nazi service aside just like it's it's. It's a cool medical story. And, when Reynolds I got his MD, his desire was to be a medical researcher. Now I don't have a tremendous amount of detail about Dr. Reynolds's early life, and most of what we do have comes from an article in the Guardian that will not bad is largely just repeating what run says about his own early life He says that as a teenager, he endured. Sick Acne This is not what most of us was described as bad acne I'm sure we all have a bad acne story. He was one of those people who's like whole face was just this using painful massive sores? He claims it was yeah, and I had there was at least one kid at my school who had this kind of acne and it did. It did seem like a nightmare No one's brutal. Yeah, runnells claims that his act. He was so bad that he forgot what his own nose looked like. And Yeah. There's not many worse ailments you can have as a teenager. This was obviously disastrous for young Charles Personal Life. He recalls praying to God. If you could make me attractive, I will find something good to do with it. and Luckily for him a miracle cure soon did arrive dermatologist treated his skin with x rays, which cured the cystic acne, but left him with a lifetime of melanomas whichever required constant treatment in order to stop from turning cancerous as an adult doctor. Reynolds now claims that his childhood battle with cystic acne gave him enormous compassion for people suffering from incurable conditions, the pain of what I have called the hidden population now. Is True it certainly easy see how it could have sparked. His youthful desire to embark on a career is a medical researcher. And that's exactly what he did, but unfortunately he was not good at it in two thousand and four, he got approval to conduct a study on the efficacy of new smallpox vaccine formulation. He got approval to do this, but he did not get approval to conduct the study on homeless people, however it. We're getting right into. My. Trash? Yeah, yeah, he's not great. Okay, I have sympathy. I was just thinking. I I have A. I have. An. Emotional Depths to to understand empathy into into sympathize with someone that is the has really bad acne in in his is going through a hard time. self-confidence word upper that does not give you fucking green light to Oh my God. What a fucking piece of Shit! Yeah, yeah, he's a real piece of shit. This study is is bad like Oh, boy, Howdy! So. He. Basically, it's expensive to recruit subjects for a vaccine study and it's hard. But tricking Hobos into letting you test drugs on their bodies is easy. And, that's just what he did. and he did he did get approval to conduct the study on people from a homeless shelter after he had already started testing them Yeah, so he filled forgiveness, not permission. Yeah, and there's a lot of other shadiness, so he filled a sample grew up with men and women from a local. New Orleans homeless shelter think twenty two of them and as the FDA later wrote quote, you enrolled twenty-one. Indigent persons from Multi Service Center for the homeless into either study. Only after enrolling eight of these subjects, you received approval from the institutional re review. Board Irbe to enroll vulnerable subjects as described below regardless of the ironies decision to approve the enrollment of vulnerable populations, persons utilizing the Multi Service Center for the homeless were unsuitable for consideration for these studies for many reasons including, but not limited to the following, these individuals were suitable, because they were economically or educationally disadvantaged. Some subjects could not understand or follow the protocol requirements for example. Example subjects in a couple of subjects did not understand how to measure his temperature in order to complete his or daily diary, as they reported body temperatures, raising from ranging from eighty four degrees Fahrenheit to ninety seven, so when reason why? This was bad is because like these people had to keep data on themselves in order for the study to make be of any value, and they just weren't competent to. They didn't have the kind of education to do that. The FDA has complained continues one requirement for doctors. Doing these sorts of studies is that they complete vaccine risk assessment questionnaire at least six times during the study, the questionnaire asks about the health and medication use of people. The study subject lives with this is obviously a project for homeless folks who live in a center because their household contacts include every person including staff and volunteers at that center. So, this is a huge problem because again. If you're testing medicine on people to see if it works, you have to know what other medications they're taking. You want to limit and control for that and you have no fucking idea what people that are homeless center. Many of whom are addicted to drugs. Themselves are actually taking, and you don't know what they had the option to take you. You just can't. It's a bad group to use for a steady like this. Like. There's the moral problem of these of going of conducting a study on these folks. A lot of them have mental illnesses. That means that they can't really. Provide informed consent. And then there's also the fact that like you can't get good data out of these people because like you can't control the things you need to interstate. There's a whole lot of reasons. This was the worst way to conduct study. Yeah, yeah, there's there's no upside. Yeah, lose the upside is that it's cheap in it. It's easy if you don't care about actually performing a good study. That kind of negates his entire like ethos. self-proclaimed right like just yeah, yea, it sure does so. There were a lot more problems to like. We're not even done with this shit Dr. Ronald got his his institutional research board to approve him to have an impartial witness observed the informed consent discussion that he got will recruiting these homeless people to act as Guinea pigs. So that was how he got. He got permission after the study started to use homeless people as. As test subjects, and the way he did this by promising to have an impartial witnesses, who can make sure that these people were providing informed consent and obviously the purpose of this was to avoid a ghoulish situation where mentally ill or drug, addled individuals tested with experimental medications in exchange for money without understanding that they'd agreed to be tested tested with experimental medications in exchange for money. That would be a horrible thing. So thank God. He had an impartial witness, right? While thank God while you're glad. He had an impartial witness right motherfucker, but he had asked me he had really bad acne those so he's out to do this. Oh, my God I hate him I. Hate Him you WanNa. Year was impartial witness was. Another homeless person that he was testing drugs on. I'm like God. He's such a piece of shit like. Pure evidence, this is pure evidence of him. Repeatedly, taking advantage of those who are run rable weather has women that can't work or people that have no other choice. You're still taking advantage of people that are vulnerable and. That's like the one gifter one zero one. COME ON, yeah! And it gets worse like this is honestly one of the worst scientific studies I've ever heard of anyone conducting so obviously people who are conducting proper medical studies are supposed to do a lot of research to understand the pre existing conditions of members of the study, so you like you look at how their bodies do in before you start putting meds on them this to avoid endangering people and to ensure that like the folks conducting the study learn as much as possible out. You know how certain medications. Medications affect people with different health. Conditions so obviously. Our all of Dr Reynolds's patients underwent EKG's and blood and urine samples, but Charles just didn't tell his IRB about any of the adverse health conditions that he revealed in this process, so a bunch of people were found with heart problems. He just didn't say anything about it. and in fact one of his after HR being medicated, was hospitalized for chest pain, and he also didn't tell the R B about that for more than two weeks. So that's all really bad. It's horrible like this is one of the worst like if you're. If you're a science person, read read the the FDA's complaint about this study because it's shocking, how bad it is! The Gist of how is he still allowed to practice medicine? That's what I. That is what we're for. He was yeah, so. Yeah the gist of all this is Dr Reynolds used homeless folks as test subjects, and took the actions to obscure the fact that many of them didn't understand what was being done to them. He covered up. Their L. misses all of this horrible stuff. In two thousand eight, the FDA investigated him for this and initiated disqualification proceedings against him, and he was disqualified from working as a clinical investigator in two thousand nine as a result of this. This investigation Dr John, Gunter explains what that means getting disqualified by the FDA means a clinical investigator has repeatedly or deliberately failed to comply with applicable regulatory requirements or the clinical investigator has repeatedly or deliberately submitted false information to the sponsor, or if applicable to the FDA in any required report, a disqualified clinical investigator is not eligible to conduct any clinical investigation that supports an application for a research or marketing permit for products regulated by the FDA. So he gets banned from being a medical researcher basically because he's so wildly responsible at it. Yeah. Yeah, and obviously, because he's the subject of this show Oh. We know what happens. We know what happens. He gets famous vampire facial like. He's in the havoc. He D-. He didn't come up. It's no you know what I mean. This is not the come up show. This is not the. Although if we were to really dig into it, we could come up with a good since this is an orgasm based episode. Good come joke based on the word. Come Up, and but I'M GONNA leave that to the listener to put together in your own head. You know what? Yeah. I, didn't think of that when I said it out loud, but. Take it take it for your. Makes a joke your own. Yeah, yeah, this is a diy. The comedy in this podcast is very often diy. Out there, so you can get. Yeah, we're like the KIA of jokes about. Bad Orgasm doctors. Not a lot of money in being that I don't know why we took this path. Anyway Obviously being the subject of this podcast, Dr Ronald Not Learn Goddamn thing from his failures from his punishment after he gets banned from conducting medical research because of his. How horrifically irresponsible! He gets fined in two thousand, and also in two thousand nine five thousand dollars, but the State Board of Medical Examiners of Alabama for the misuse of hormone replacement therapy after he massively overdosed two women with testosterone Yeah! Yeah and he defends his actions by saying that the hormone doses helped his patients. Just, as defends his actions with the vaccine trial by saying that he didn't know the subjects were homeless. COLLINE! Yeah, he's. He's just a liar. Now Yeah Dr Rentals a again when he gets talked about his misuse of hormone replacement therapy because he overdosed women with disaster on. He will say that like it helped his patients, and I wanted to know like what he meant by. That eventually was able to find a video posted to his website, which is called the Cellular Medicine Association titled Who is Charles Reynolds The association is run by him and he made this video. He doesn't acknowledge that he was fined for doing this, but he does talk about how he started doing testosterone therapy for women. And he again doesn't acknowledge that he hurt people doing this, but he does say. It gave them such high libidos that their husbands couldn't keep up and so he started injecting their husbands with testosterone. And I can't tell you if that happened or not. But I can tell you. That doesn't sound like good medicine. I'm not a doctor, but. That seems like a bad medical call. So, yeah. Reynolds says that in two thousand ten, he started hearing about PRP therapy, which was then again mostly the province of sports medicine although gynecologists had started using the technique to inject platelets around the Aretha of women who experienced urinary incontinence, and it does seem to help with that. There's some some. Studies but I know a lot of people say it helps with that. I haven't seen any reason to believe it doesn't. But I'M GONNA. Let Dr Ronald himself explain what happened next. This is this is Dr Charles. Reynolds, explaining what happens after he realized that PRP therapy. was was was being used on people's faces back in two thousand ten. Someone brought to me. The centrifuge that had been used by the orthopedic surgeons to. PREPARE PLATELET RICH PLASMA. For the knees by the dentists and wound care, wound healing, excuse me. So. The person bringing the centrifuge says this has been FDA approved for pairing plasma. PLATELETS PLASMA, and if he uses it, of course, it's blood. The blood's not FDA approved. The FDA doesn't approve your hair. Yours urine or saliva or your blood, but they have to approve the device that makes the plasma to go back into your body, so he says this has been FDA approved to prepare plasma to go back into the body, and it's been shown to calls new tissue growth, new blood flow new volume, and there was never been grainy Lomo serious infection. Receive your side effect from platelets plasma. You should try it in the face so I thought. This is wonderful, because if this works in the face, I mean instantly because I was tuned into the sexual problems. That this works in the face. Does all those things? then. This should help. You, so he's like yeah. I saw that this work in the face and I was like well. If this helps people's faces than clearly, it helps their genitals, which nobody says that about anything like I'm not like well because My straight razor helps me get an I shave. I should clearly shave my dick with a straight razor. You don't like what what a line of thought that makes so much sense just joke from. To Dick. Contact help my is. They must help my penis, but like I will say. I didn't know what he looks like. We're watching that and I am. Like little more than needed to be upset. I more upset than I wanted to be the fact that he's not unattractive. He's conventionally attractive, and it's proven that people trust the people that are attractive someone if someone is absolute is good looking if they're tall if they're built if there if they have a charming way of speaking, he has a deep voice has a tick a southern. was that word like Twang, or whatever to his voice like he? He had a drawl like A. He is presenting himself as an Alpha and you're going to trust that if you're vulnerable. Even if he was like. Fabulous makes me. Wish was I just. But it makes sense the fact that he's gone away with. It makes sense a little bit more than before now in my brain. Shoot Cherie and what you're saying is exactly why I think we should just mandate disfiguring facial surgery for all American citizens. and. Health. With mandatory disfiguring surgery is our sponsors at Raytheon and Lockheed Martin. Who've developed a brand new knife missile. That is just GonNa Guarantee. Nobody gets trusted on the basis of their tractive nece. Ever again, so please. Support Lockheed Martin in its quest to disfigure all of us Yep. Enjoy these other products. Though we're apart these days sharing so at Geico like to say thanks, thanks for sharing your savage dance moves. Thanks for sharing your diy haircut fails. Thanks for sharing your inner lip sync star. Now it's turned to share with the GEICO. Give back the fifteen percent credit on car and motorcycle policies, current and new customers, because we're committed for the long haul, the fifteen percent credit last year, full policy term visit GEICO dot. com slash. Give back for more info eligibility working from home. Conference, calls. John Everything. We have going on right now. It's never been more important. Get the sleep. We need quality. Sleep is a natural immune booster, and only the sleep number three sixty smart bet senses your movements at automatically adjust your comfort and support on both sides your sleep number setting so all those other things we're doing to stay healthy and happy well. They'll work better to and now during Memorial Day Sale, save a thousand dollars on the queen's sleep number, three sixty special edition smart, but now only seventeen, ninety nine, only for a limited time to learn more go to sleepnumber dot com. So. We're back again. I know a lot of doctors actually listen to this podcast. We have a lot of Dr. Fans and I'm interested in their takes on the clip that we played as a layman. It seems like competent medical researchers don't say if this works on the face. It must be good for helping people fuck, but I'm not an MD so. y'All my sister's is a doctor and I know she would fucking Shit over this like I. It's it seems like. I. Mean Like I want to bring this up. Really quick like. Do you know I? Don't know if the movie contagion had a huge like? Recently. I. Guess this is like a spoiler, but it's been around long enough. Who Cares? You can't spoil the movie that old by the end of the movie like the cure comes about because the lead researcher like injects herself with the medicine, or or would the the vaccine, and my sister is a doctor, and I'm sure many doctors I watched this movie like I know it's a movie, but it's like of the same idea of what this person Dr Reynolds was like inspired by. It's like using yourself as a martyr using yourself like this hero to save the day, and and realistically that is bullshit like that is. It's a cool story, but it's not. As medically or factually sound, and it's really dangerous A. Medical professional would do that and he was like. Okay. The troubling part is that there have been a couple of really groundbreaking medical professionals who advanced medical science because they were willing to dangerously experiment on themselves and it's. It's kind of threading a needle. That's maybe to find for most people to win a threat to say that like. Yes, people who were willing to do that have advance the frontiers of knowledge before and also to say, but it's still a bad idea, and we should have moved past that like right in nineteen. Th fucking twenty nine. Some doctor who can't get approval is like fuck it I'm just gonNA. Try to stint my own fucking heart, and it works, and it's good that it did. But also, that was like a century ago and we should not have to do that anymore. I totally agree with you. I totally agree that like there are some cases where it's really been like groundbreaking in progress medicine, but I think the fact that this doctor like was is caught up in that particular narrative. It's kind of of the kind of doctor. He was even trying to be. More concerned with the story. Yes, not yes. Zoomed with the medicine. You've hit on an incredibly important point that he's consumed with the story in the story gets wilder from here on out so this strap in Charene. It's GonNa. Be Fun, okay? Yeah, so as that video goes on Dr. Reynolds goes on to say that he read a lot of papers. I think he says thousands and I don't think there are thousands which showed that PRP treatments were effective in reducing signs of aging on the face which again the? Yeah. The evidence and also the evidence is not. Overwhelming on that. And so, as a result of reading a lot of papers, he decided to start experimenting on himself with PRP. Facial treatments before he started shooting stuff into other people's Genitalia. Since he was legally barred from conducting clinical trials, he just jumped right into experimenting on people with his own. PRP facial treatments, Dr Reynolds began marketing them under the trademark name vampire facelift. And I. I got it wrong early. I said he's responsible for the vampire facial. His trademark name is the vampire facelift, and you will see when people advertise that they do. Vampire facial there actually like legally ripping him off. Because his the vampire facelift. I! Don't care, but it's from a legal standpoint. It's important. Acne he did have acting. So bad for him. Now in this video he claims that coming up with he decided he had to trademark this thing before there was really any hard evidence that it worked because. This, this would be important for him. Being able to responsibly treat people see if he just called his PRP poor for his story. For his fucking story and for finances if he just called, he says that if he just called this like PRP facial by the other people were using a vampire therapy was a common name. Then any bullshit doctor could claim to be providing his therapy. And what if they accidentally hurt someone so he claims that he had to trade market so that he could avoid people getting hurt. Oh yeah, that's nonsense. I think that's nonsense. Vampire facelift is a good media, ready name and trademarking. It allowed him to license his treatment to other doctors and make passive income from thousands of practitioners that he trains often and online courses who basically act as Franchisees interestingly enough Charles Denies that anything he does. Is that what he does? Is Anything like franchising? So he says that like this is not franchising what I'm doing. And in the same breath that he claims it's not like franchising. He compares the name Vampire Facelift to the Trademark Golden Arches of McDonald's which is. Amazing. Yeah, he's pretty that whole video is pretty fun to listen to so. Charles insists the whole reason that he did. This was to ensure a consistent standard of care and insists that everyone abide by the same stringent practices. He does end spoilers, someone advertising, a knockoff empire facial like a year ago, got to people infected with HIV and they weren't. People run on trade. He had trained, so he like well. Look, this is what I'm saying like. These people are using. Knock off, and they got folks sick, but it's like yeah. They got folks to buy their treatment by using the name that was as close as possible to the one you use. Yeah, anyway, so for the next couple of years Dr Reynolds made a name for himself a new fortune as the inventor of the vampire facelift lift his dream of injecting people's blood back into their own vaginas, though had to lay dormant for a while, as he grappled with fame and expanded his clinic, but then as Dr Ronald, tells it one day fate in the form of his girlfriend forced his hand. Oh, buddy. We are heading in for one of the most irresponsible stories of a medical experimentation I I can conceive of. A fun one so. As Dr Ronald tells this story. Yeah, there's a number of different versions of the story that he's. He's given, I prefer the one written by a journalist from the Guardian who interviewed Reynolds and I'm going to read that now. Quote Charles Reynolds is lover. Surprised met his office, demanding that he inject blood into her clitoris as a Valentine's Day present she hiked up her dress hopped onto the exam table and motioned for Reynolds to put on his headlamp. She explained that she'd been watching him inject his own penis with blood for about a year, and that while his bigger and stronger erections had been fun. Fun She'd grown tired of the one-sided sexual enhancement. It was her turn, so runnells bowed between her legs, her clitoris with an ice cube and shot her up. I don't know how graphic you can be with this thing. He said over the phone, pausing mid story to ask me about the Guardians Policy and discussing Orgasms, but the next afternoon she came to see me and her orgasms came more quickly very strong. Jackie Literary orgasms The Passion, the thunder, the sound she was making he side at the memory. That's when I thought I should try this on my patients. And I know the fucking. The doctors listening to this have their fucking jaws on the floor, right? Oh My fucking God. Is. Walking chapter in the. Story I hate him also like. Oh! No, no, no, no, no, no, no yeah I just thought I. Should I should try it on my patients. It's amazing so. I'm not a doctor. I saw you injecting your penis this whole time you. Give me some of that good. Stuff so. I'm not a doctor, but the American medical. Association is a doctor, and it seems to me into Dr John Gunter from whom I found. This pointed out that this whole story is a very clear violation of the code of medical ethics. which states quote, romantic or sexual interactions between physicians and patients that occur concurrently with the patient physician relationship are unethical. Such interactions detract from the goals of the patient physician relationship, and may exploit the vulnerability of the patient compromise the physician's ability to make objective judgments about the patient's healthcare and. Detrimental to patient's wellbeing, which shouldn't need to be said, but is is written up there and the seems like a clear violation of that to me, I love what he added that she was like. Grab your headlamps. Yeah, no! A. Clear like the key is making this up. No girlfriend is like Oh. My Guy grabbed her needle in your headlamp like no. Yeah it's something else so Dr Ronald tells the story to reporters as if it is a charming anecdote in the reason why he thinks this is charming, is very much rooted in his idolization of Dr Forsman the gate that heart surgery, so yeah forcement experimented on himself. He was exiled from mainstream medicine for his boldness, but he was eventually recognized as a medical pioneer in genius Wants so badly to identify himself with force men that he includes this line in the WHO is section of his website quote I actually pulled up Dr Forsman story on Wikipedia and read it for a few minutes to get psyched out before I injected my own penis with PRP which I did twice before I injected any other persons, penis or clitoris slash vagina. Now some people might quibble with the fact that he's acquitting himself and his orgasm medicine experiments with doctor, struggling to cope with a way to save heart disease patients, but I actually think that sexual health is incredibly important, so I'm not going to like Ding him on that. What I will ding him for is the fact that Dr Ronald clearly never cared about anything, but rushing to. To patent his treatment, so he could ring the most possible money out of it Dr, forcement, on the other hand, spent decades as either a small town doctor or a frontline military doctor, he turned down. Impressive jobs entitles when they were offered to him because he felt they exceeded his depth of confidence He was a pretty humble guy. Whatever else you want to say about him? And his innovations contributed to medical science. None of those things can be said about Dr Ronald although I am glad. He moved from on from experimenting on Homeless People Experimenting on his own Dick. I guess that's a step forward. I mean I I. It's it's the step I prefer. I would prefer. INJECTING, himself than injecting innocent people. Homeless people, but yeah his his claim that like first of all two times. If you're only like, be like I injected myself twice before anyone else first of all if you WANNA. Be Serious twice as not enough. And also like this just brings me back to my point of him being so consumed with the story versus the medicine like he wants to be. Near so desperately, that's all that's all it is, and he'd clearly the way he describes. The story tells you that like he'd made his mind up about what this was like a real scientist doing if they did this to themselves might not like okay well. It feels like my orgasms are better, but is it possible that I'm just into medical kink like? This is just. Like and it's not a groundbreaking medical treatment. Perhaps other research should be done. Yeah, but also you should never have a really good point. You should never go into anything being like I'm going to be a pioneer because of the suggests the whole. Research and testing like yeah, but obviously sites he read. His kapiti pages psych himself up. Are You shitting? Yeah, like yeah, you're all of this is horrible. Now? Dr Charles. What's sell? Yeah, he does because he does. He thinks this is fine, and he's never really faced consequences for it so clearly it is usual because he's a track, yeah! Dim It, so Dr Charles Reynolds names another hero on his website. A Berry Marshall Dr Barry Marshall and Marshall is another doctor with a very cool story in the early Nineteen Eighties Berry. Marshall became convinced that peptic ulcers and gastric cancer were both caused by specific sort of bacterium, conventional medical wisdom at the time was that ulcers were caused by stress or certain foods. Marshall was ridiculed, ridiculed at first for his hypothesis, and has been quoted as saying. Everyone was against me, but I knew I was right and Dr. Marshall eventually proved US hypothesis by drinking a culture filled with ulcer, causing bacteria and. And giving himself and also his work revolutionized the treatment of ulcers in the prevention of gastric cancer. He was awarded a Nobel Prize for his enormous achievement and you can see why Dr Ronald Likes this Guy Reynolds writes about Dr Marcia quote. He gave up gaining acceptance in Australia, and then came to the US, and only after the popular press started talking about it, the physician start reading his research, he gave himself an by drinking the bacteria, Dr Marshall and his acceptance of the price quoted Daniel Burstein. The greatest obstacle to knowledge is not ignorance. It is the illusion of knowledge. Now some of what Ronald says here is true. Dr Marshall did in fact. Give himself an officer, but there's actually a lot of debate about whether or not. The medical community was wrong to be skeptical about his ideas. They were Dr Ronald Claims that the skepticism was only because cutting out ulcers was big business, and other doctors had no financial interest in alternative treatments, and this claim has undercut by the fact that Barry Marshall received funding from a major medical institution to spend. Spend a whole year conducting his research, he did test it on himself eventually, but he was given funding to do the the studies that he was doing so the idea that like he did face resistance people who didn't think that what he was suggesting was reasonable, but also there was an institution willing to let him conduct these studies in a controlled and scientific way, so it's not like he was completely alone like an institution was like. Yeah, there's enough merit to your. Here's some funding. Figure it out. You can argue that doctors were more skeptical and they should have been but Dr Marshall. Just give himself an ulcer and say see I've solve the problem. He headed research partner. He had lab assistants. He worked at an institution when he proved his hypothesis. More tests tests were conducted and more research was done until an effective treatment was devised. This is how medical science supposed to work by contrast Dr Reynolds did not do go from shooting his own dick or his girlfriend's Labia full of blood, conducting blind clinical trials. This would be difficult because he's been banned from doing that sort of work. Do you do to his shameful criminal conduct, borderline criminal conduct? Instead he left right to not just he left right to selling the Oh shot so like the they didn't do. We didn't do it. Marshall did he just starts marketing this thing after he decides effective, that should be fucking crime. That should be fucking. Crime seems like it Oughta but. But it's not and he started selling in conducting training sessions, so other doctors could could sell the Oshawa to as of this moment he's trained at least five hundred medical practitioners and more than twenty thousand women have had the The Oath Shot done on them. runs estimates that it has an eighty five percent success rate based mainly off of how he feels because again. No conclusive clinical trials have been. been done on this treatment he does have one or two small batch studies about its efficacy, a treating other things that he cites as evidence that the shot works however as Dr Jen Gunter Notes about one of the studies, the only study of agile injections listed Dr Ronald Website is in is the Journal of Women's healthcare and open access journal from Oh mix publishing group, which has been listed as a potentially predatory. Predatory Journal now. There's no universally agreed upon definition of a predatory journal, but most of them are basically self publishing platforms for scientists they allow you to publish a study for a fee, and they provide no editing or peer review process because a lot of them. Don't actually care about putting good information. Some of these just like ship hosting your show your yourself Mike Medium for scientists exactly. I was just thinking in. Guntur continues quote regardless of the Journal. It is a stretch to call this paper a study. It's a case series of eleven women with a variety of sexual complaints ranging from disparue Neha, to orgasmic disorder the sexual dysfunction experienced by a woman with disparue neo never mind that there are a multitude of very different conditions that can cause this, so it really shouldn't be a single diagnosis in a study cannot be compared with the sexual dysfunction of. Of a woman with an arousal disorder, the results of the eleven women sixty four percent reported some kind of improvement, but honestly the statistics are of no value given the small sample size, and the fact that there are four very different diagnoses lumped together. I also can't tell if it was retrospective or perspective. The two women who had minimal pro proce-, pro procedure dysfunction reported extreme arousal for one to two weeks afterwards. This is the only bad. noted in the twelve to sixteen week. FOLLOW UP! The paper is a very short. Follow up at Dr. Reynolds website claims the shot lasts at least eighteen months, but up to three years for some women. So. There's just nothing really to back him up. he has paid to have enough of something that looks enough like a study performed that he can claim that he's got medical backing, and no more because a real study might reveal that this doesn't work very well, so that's good. That just makes me so mad and I'm realizing now I'm realizing now that I didn't really have to divulge or like or like a broadcast that I'm. Struggling with this thing because I I I just felt the needs to. Be So candidate I. Just I have no absolutely no filter, but I will say talking about the stuff is so important because if someone had talked about it the way I'm talking about it. When I was younger, I would've felt like such a fucking freak. And I wouldn't have felt like such a like. Just unable to like I wouldn't have not felt human in my inability to feel the very human thing and so i. Was Thinking that maybe like I shouldn't have said it, but now I'm like doubling down and I'm just the the reality that I'm even having the thought that women are continually afraid to even reach the subject or broach. The subject rather encourages people like the fucking. Just, disgusting human being taken advantage of women that are so desperate to feel something, and just like understand what receiving pleasures like and. Like. I can do all my homework. I can like like. Let's practice all these things I can buy toys or whatever, but I'm going to be I'm going to know my body better than any fucking hack ever will, and a woman should be encouraged to to really do VAT more so than. I don't know I'm just I'm just getting heated? I'm getting. This is a frustrating story. Yeah, it's very frustrating story. Because like yeah, like Oh griffey's. He's praying on a real vulnerability like this is a thing, the P. late like women who are struggling with the thing that you've been very open about struggling with that's a painful vulnerability, and he knows that it means he can fleece them for Shit. Little money And it's that sucks. And, he's he's. He's become very away from it. Yeah, exactly like that's that's that's. That's just infuriating. Yup. Yeah it gets infuriating her doctor. Gunter has done a lot of like looking into this guy's like like digital presence She notes that in the paper that he had published. That's purporting to be a real study about the stuff. He listed his address as Medical School Comma Birmingham Comma Alabama Comma. USA, this is not a medical. Yeah. He just stuck medical school on his address because he knows that no one looking to get this treatment will check any further. Yeah, it's awesome now. Yeah Yeah. Dr Gutters opinion, the most unsettling thing about kind of the lack of information about the efficacy of the shot is that there are no animal studies to show how the vaginal epithelium might respond to PRP quote. The bulk of the published studies involve wounds and tendons muscles, not healthy vaginal tissue. This is a very important point, because it is possible that PRP could increase the growth of. Of blood vessels, individual tissues, and we don't know if that is good or bad. If a woman has Human Pamplona virus in her vagina, and gets a PRP injection that could cause the HP to spread or make it more likely to develop into cancer. Could it co scarring could lead to unregulated growth of nerve endings and cause pain. Could it trigger trigger autoimmune conditions of the Vagina? Vagina Vulva, she's plenty out. We just don't know and this is why you don't start injecting performing treatment of thousands of women when we don't know any of this stuff, you research it for like there's a case you never jumped to human trial yet never do this. There is a case for hastening human trials in the event of say a horrific plague, spreading over the land and you. You really need to get a vaccine out. Fastest cost benefit analysis that can be done and things can be accelerated, but this is not an immediate life or death issue like orgasms are important, but we can take the time to make sure this isn't going to cause horrible damage. The people getting the shot like right it. This isn't like a vaccine for a death plague, you know. We have. Time and energy being given to it to make it, so we can do it right. Like is a serious issue, but it's not. It's. Just for medical standpoint you never like it's, it's just. It's very frustrating very frustrating, so after all this was established. How reckless this guy is and how improve in his treatment is the question that follows naturally. As why do people keep buying it in the answer for that is is really fucking sad, and it ties into the stuff. We were talking about at the top of this episode. A lot of women a lot of. Of people with the giants can't organize orgasm reliably, and the best treatment for this seems to be a combination of therapy and having a committed partner who cares about your understanding, or here's about understanding your body You can't prescribe that right like to a certain extent you can't. You can't like. No doctor can like right that on a sheet and handed out to you. Falling in love, or at least falling in like enough to have regular sex is not easy. And so. Dr! Ronald offers an easy answer. An injectable answer to what is really a very complicated question, and this helps explain the demand for Dr Orgasm. Services. It doesn't explain why so many women do swear by his work. And for that explanation, we're going to have to turn back to that article. In The Guardian by Kathleen, Hale the opening paragraphs of this article about Reynolds filled with more red flags than a Communist Party rally and I'm going to quote here. Runs. His office isn't like any. Isn't anything like the sterile exam rooms? Most women associated with gynecological exams. It's intimate, personal and cozy, because in addition to treating thousands of patients there over the years. He also lives there. There's a small entryway. The small entryway opens up to a living room dominated by gym equipment in the bathroom. I found a functioning shower and shelves filled with employees toiletries. The only examination table was. was separated from the kitchen by a curtain Pamela Julian Vivian. The three women on Reynolds is four person. Staff greeted me with open arms in order to better understand what they promoted. Pamela and Vivian told me they both had shots administered by Reynolds Mark. The sole male employees opted for the male version A. P. Shot. If you're like me that stuff gives you some flashbacks to to Dr John Brown like. The Guy We talked about who did horrific surgeries from his own home on Trans People. It's generally not considered ideal for a doctor to perform operations in his own home, but it's also not impossible for such a situation style and I have not heard any allegations that Dr Reynolds. The setup violates any health codes the part where all of his employees use the medicine that he makes Israel Colty in a bit of a flag, though and the vibes don't decline as the article goes on quote as we awaited for the arrival of my first interview subject. Subject Lacy Reynolds suggested that I might want to try the. Oh shot for myself, you'll love it. Vivian said she told me that doctors regularly flew in from all over the world to be trained in the procedure, and that initially they reacted to offers a free. Oh, shots, just as I had with a mix of embarrassment and surprise, but by the end she said everyone wanted one I mean it's kind of I. can kind of understand like if you go to? A dentist or orthodontist? You want everyone to have straight teeth right like you will ever to have had braces or whatever, but this is completely different like it's not the same thing and I do think I think the fact that it's in a house, and not in a more sterile place I think that lens to getting these women to trust him like it's more intimate. It's more it is you're you're? You're praying on them, and in very emotional mental ways that they don't even realize it's you're you're you're making them feel like they're? Yeah that they're safe, but they're not, and it feels like the kind of classes he does with the doctors. The in person ones at least are Kinda like that, too. There's a line in here where runnells laughs quote recalling how the last class had run until three in the morning just to accommodate demand, and he says it's like a baptist revival except you're injecting each other's genitals. fucking wild. Now at. This Guardian article by Kathleen Hale also notes that the location for Reynolds. His office, which is Fair Hope Alabama is in the middle of the Bible Belt. It's a place where vibrators are a legal. Due to the state's anti obscenity, laws where I grew up in Texas was like that, too. They had to market them as toppers like decorations for like cakes for Bachelorette, parties and stuff, even though people yeah, yeah, because it's illegal to sell a vibrator because Texas. Hates women. Yeah, that's crazy. I had no idea. Yeah, and the data here is imperfect, but there is a decent amount of data that suggests that highly religious women, and particularly like religiously Orthodox type women are more likely to suffer from orgasmic disorders than secular women. And the women hailing yeah. I obviously like your. Europe was shame around your body. And that shame has you have inability to really let go experience pleasure like obviously that makes sense, but her t's. Like pretty much taking advantage of that like he's, he's yeah. Open openly group of women having the issue that he is yes tending to know how to solve yes, and makes sense that this guy who otherwise you'd expect a doctor like this to be like in Los, Angeles I think he picked his location I think he decided to stay in Alabama for a reason, and it's that he's very good at manipulating this particular kind of person very like religious, conservative less, who orgasmic disorders and he's good at making them trust him. Yeah. Yeah hails article yeah so it's. The women that Hale interviews that article described themselves overwhelmingly as very empathetic Bible believing Christians like the women who have gotten this shot in an outsize number of them are unfortunately victims of rape or sexual assault quote, Lacey and athletic forty year old businesswoman told no one when she was raped for the first time at age thirteen, but soon her father noticed something different about her, and started calling her a whore, and a lesbian physical abuse followed when Lacy's next rapist, her husband found himself unable to climax, unless lacy was in excruciating pain. He raped her throughout their tenure relationship. So. Yeah, and the the damage from this laughter twenty nine years old with incontinence in scarring She wet the bed and she was kind of unable to orgasm. Doctors responded to her condition concerns by suggesting she used Lube with our partners and undergo psychotherapy. And by age, thirty lacy never expected to experience sexual. Pleasure again. She tried using a back massager to stimulate herself, but it left a callous on. So she just didn't know how to yes, she's just a victim of of of unbelievable abuse who did not know how to like like like like who was maybe getting some psychological counseling, but because of where she lived in sort of like the the culture she was in was not able to really talk about sex with anyone, and never had that conversation never had a conversation about how to masturbate, and then she meets Dr Reynolds. and. They made it a bank in. She learns what he does, and she confides in him that she can't orgasm and he tells her that he knows something that might help and I get the feeling. She says that he gave her the Oh shot, and she immediately felt alive down there. You get the feeling though that also they're having conversations about sex. And maybe she's never gotten to have that. He's giving her an intimacy. She's never known exactly I don't want to I don't want to discredit any of these women have felt or no, no, no, but there is a level of placebo that goes into this like you. Eating up to. It looks like the connection with. The women, the the promise of of like just like everyone telling them it's going to work the staff and everything like there's going to be a certain amount of placebo that just by default air, because it's so high. And the data we have makes it very clear that having healthy conversations about your your your Genitalia and about sex with people who care about your at least seemed to care about. You really helps with an orgasmic disorder. That's a super important part of treating it. There's again. This is part of why y you need an actual study on something like this. Because there's no separation for like the conversations they're having unlike the intimacy of the encounter and the shot like none of that's being separated. There's no way to know what the shot is doing. Actually anything because the whole lot is wrapped up in all of these women's stories with Dr Reynolds and that's that just helps in. Yeah it does help him it, but it does not necessarily help these women. It doesn't help us to know if this thing actually works. Yeah, which is why skeptics Dr, Jen underway point out that anecdotal data is not the same as scientific data, and she points that out pointed out to Kathleen Hale in the Guardian article. Hale talked to Dr, Gunter, and Halo. Understood that but also had a lot of trouble writing off. These women's experiences She was clearly convinced to a degree by their embrace of the Oh shot, and it's very convincing when a lot of people say this thing helped me. She did ask runnells though why he tended to gravitate towards trauma victims, and his answer was interesting. He responded quote. I don't really know why I'm surrounded by people who have pain I do absolutely make a conscious effort to find them. I think my real usefulness evolves out of. It's not even compassion. It's more like obsession. Which is well? Yeah, more honest answer. Yeah, it should be right. The. Nets. And that is that's. Wow there is a reason why co-leaders gravitate towards abuse victims as do drifters because in general, our society doesn't Shit job of taking care of these people and it's a natural human need to respond to people who reach out and show compassion for you in times of lonely darkness, and I think this explains part of Dr Reynolds is success. In another part of it is explained by what's called Placebo Theater. which is the very well documented fact that receiving any kind of treatment in a clinical medical setting, especially, if it's expensive, will increase a patient's belief that the treatment will work and actually increase the efficacy of the treatment. This is a placebo effect thing and it doesn't help a lot when you're treating metastatic cancer, but a lot of orgasm orgasm. Orgasm mental right like that's where the block comes up for a lot of people, and it's not unheard of four placebos to be effective up to sixty percent of cases for these sorts of situations. Because again, you don't actually have to physically affect. You just have to make them believe like and if they believe it'll work. This is primarily a mental block. That's all it. Is I mean not all it is. That's a lot of it. Yeah, a big part of the research that I've been to. Like, it's they they talk a lot about letting. Go and ways to make your mind. Like go essentially of everything because this, there's this pressure around even achieving the word achieving an orgasm is like so I, think counterintuitive, because it makes us seem like you're reaching for something constantly, and if you're having sex with with a partner. At least in my experience, I always felt like. I'm never going to give them what they want because I can't do this thing. I'm supposed to be doing and so then i. then get really until I, giving rather than receiving and get of pleasure out of that, but then it kind of like when you're really grappling with this idea of. The fact that it's all mental. It's all mental because if you're too consumed with. I'm I can't do this thing or if you're even thinking like I, have to go. I have to go. That's not letting go, and so I can only imagine like all these elements that allow women to to for their like he's making them comfortable enough to believe that this is going to help them. Enough, itself makes them feel better, and if that's all he was doing I wouldn't have any problem with this. Because of the homeless people study, but like I wouldn't have a problem with this current business like if this guy was just like. Hey, I'm Dr in the Bible Belt and I help women who have problems orgasm ing. In a lot of women said he helped them I'd be like yeah fine great, but he's also injecting them with. He's also performing a medical operation that we have no data on what kind of long term harm. It might do to them like that's. That's where the issue is. A huge yeah in. Therapy it's talking. You're physically doing something to body, not medically sound and another impact comes from the fact that the Oh shut costs about twelve hundred fifteen hundred dollars and controlled studies have shown that spending more money on medical treatment can increase the placebo effect as well and even Parkinson's patients have shown physical improvement in situations like this so again like. A lot of this has nothing to fucking do with whatever he's injecting them with and everything to do with these psychological atmosphere that this person sets up his his his his operation now. The experts Kathleen Hale talked to mentioned all of this, but quote as she s, she writes quote as a lay person. I couldn't help it. Respect their authority, but as a human being was hard for me to discredit. Discredit so many women's stories when they said the Oh shot worked I believe them, so she got the shot herself and it did. It didn't do anything and I think it's just because she didn't. She's never had didn't have an issue. Right like she had no problem having orgasms. She had the shot and she didn't notice anything. and that is what feeding go into it with trauma. She didn't go into. A like something to be fixed. Yeah like she wasn't searching for a placebo. Yeah that makes sense to and it's. It's one of those things where like at the end of the day I have to admit that compared to our usual bastards the harm this guy is currently perpetrating is minimal like these women are out money, but there's not while there's not evidence. He's helping them. There isn't evidence he's hurting them. Although it is possible that he's doing a lot of damage to move, just don't know for a while because begin. Nobody's fucking looked into this. It's. I don't know like. This guy because I, he's a bad person and he's taking advantage of people. But I also I think the thing that I hate more than this guy is the fact that we have such a shitty system set up in our country for any kind of sexual health care for informing people about their bodies, forgiving women who are having this problem a place where they even know they can go to for help. Like that's best system leads him for the success like yeah made him successful and I. I agree with you that like in the grand scheme of things. He's not like a murderer. He's not like yeah. You've talked about. Should your people on your show for sure, but the institution at large you're right is what is contributing to his success, and that institution so flawed and so broken, and it makes women believe they are there been that they need to be fixed. Capitalizing on the huge way, and he's getting away with it, and he's yeah banned from everything medical a long time ago, but he's still operating. Level best should be criminal yep. And he's he's trying to get an A. Corona virus gift. It's a pretty minor one. He wants to like create a nationwide blood bank, basically to take plasma rich blood from people that have had it that might have antibodies and give it to other people and like folks who aren't drifters. Doing basically this, he's just trying to create his own thing, and it doesn't look like it's working i. haven't seen it. Pick up a lot of steam because he's the blood guy. Yeah, so I, I don't know like as far as all of the drifters that I worry about. He's not super high on my list. Keep an eye on him because he might wind up with Griff. That actually does harm a whole lot of people who are we might find out this current gripped is more harmful than we know. I just am so frustrated by the story at the same time like. As with most of the. Who are currently eating the decent and often kinda dumb. People of this country alive the reason why they're able to do what they do is because are we don't take care of our people. There's no systems that that provide people with any option that they have a chance that they have that. There is actually a reasonable non-exploitative way to deal with the. The problem like a sexual problem they have, and so the first handsome well-spoken person who has what looked like convincing credentials and says he can cure you, you'll. You'll just trust him if he has if he has a nice face, and there are so many ways we should have set up our society to to reduce the ability. These people would have to. Griff the vulnerable, but we have done none of that and I guess that makes sense because this is America Yeah I. I agree with all of that, and it's really terrible, because it's so true and I am I under I, realized that most of your listeners actually no I. Don't realize I'm assuming a lover. Listeners are men, but for the women out there listening to this. I if you, if you relate to anything I, said like you're not alone and I know this is like not supposed to be about my own shit, but I just I'm so angry that someone like this getting away with. Something that I've struggled with like my whole life. and. Like I'm I'm a sexual person like a and the fact that I have this one thing that's been bugging me my whole life. especially in like today's world, where everyone's really empowered in sexually. Just outspoken and everything someone who's also progressive. It makes me feel like I can't keep up. It makes me feel like I'm not I can't really understand where everyone's coming from. And maybe it'll happen one day. Maybe it will, but just accepting that where you are right now where you are is so much better than being berating yourself or something that is not in your control like He. I just wanted to end this poetic way, and it's not coming out the way and I wanted to. There's no. I don't want people to feel like. This is a subject that we shouldn't talk about. Because I had hesitation admitting that I've never like that. I have I. Don't know this experience and I like I. Have My sexual history is like a little bit confusing? Because I would i. don't know the way I am, but but I think. The fact that me even coming from someone who just over the sky, and would never do the staying I can't deny that there is a little little voice in my head. I was like what if it does work like? What if this is like like? When we first started talking about it, I was like well. Maybe this is the answer to my problems and this is. I think not I think like reasonably intelligent, so I don't know. I think the depth of shame and trauma that we hold ourselves is just not okay, and we should to come out this whole thing with love and I haven't talked to human all day today so I. Forget how conversations work, so please come you off anytime. No, you're great. I'm sweaty. I'm so sweaty talking about. So. I don't know I. Just thank you for having me on to talk about this. Toss about is supposed to say no I mean. You're supposed to say how. Yeah. That's fine like it's. It's important to talk about this guarantee. There are people who will listen to this and have a version of the same experience you're having, and it will probably make them feel better to know that they're not alone in that, and that's a good thing, and if we're talking about things that reduce the ability of guys like this to Griff people, it is being able to talk. Talk about this shit, so I'm glad that you felt comfortable talking about it to an intimate audience of me and Sophie and several hundred thousand strangers, cool thanks, Robert I am going to I will say right now. If any of the fucking dudes listening, do creepy shit on twitter to you after this I will fucking tear your ass new one digit. Don't fucking gross about this. Okay, nobody nobody be asking. Yeah, thank you. Appreciate that I I just I go back to this idea that if someone was as open. Someone if if it was the norm to be open about this I wouldn't feel so weird as a kid, or as a as a teen, or whatever growing up feeling like there was something wrong with me and so I. Think we have to keep encouraging these conversations, and it's the same institution that put this guy to be successful. The same institution that same societal fucking game is the same one that makes women like me feel like they need to be fixed so. so yeah I mean like. I, I know like putting myself out. There is like just like by default. I'll get like weird replies, or whatever, or just like. We're going to be an interesting week on twitter for you. Yeah, also like little bit low key. Afraid I'm like because I was like. I was raised Muslim entire families Muslim. We don't really talk about like you're not really raised to like. Talk about sex or Just a lot to unpack as far as like me, talking about this goes like it's not just me as a woman in the society, it's also me like my culture, and like my family in particular like I just there's a lot to unpack for me here and it's this is not. Like I'm using this as therapy shouldn't do. but I think even coming from as an Arab woman at the Syrian woman. That's even another group of people that I would like to encourage this conversation like with it know because like if your children a child of immigrants if you're, you're not talking about these things as when you're growing up, it's just going to lead to more confusion into the lead to more questions and not the best not like a blanket statement. There are plenty of people who are fine in. The way they are busy just for my own personal experience that I think that's why. I'm so unfiltered, and so candidate is because i. just need someone to be this way when I was a kid. Around here say everything that was on their mind. Because that's that would, that would have made me feel less like an alien trying to study humanity watching porn. You know what I mean like. I don't know. I mean I. Think the thing you're landing on, is that? When you realize you kind of done dirty by your society and the adults around you when you were a kid because of a failure that they that they had regardless of whether or not, we consider them good people like there was a there was a shortcoming in what we had available to us as a kid when you realize that. The best thing you can do is try to be that adult. Maybe to someone else so that they don't wind up with the same hole in their experience, their education, whatever as a as as they grow up, and that starts with talking about the shit that you realize like Oh i. wish people had talked about this when I was a kid. Yeah yeah, constantly trying to be the person that I needed when I was a child. And when you're growing up, you don't see it as a societal failure, you see it as your own failure I think that's what's dangerous especially when it comes to like women's pleasure is that you don't see it as a system failing you, you see as you failing yourself and you felt like. Like you're failing your own body and you start to resent your body, and like why can't I do this? And then hopefully as we get older and become more aware of the society at large, that makes us feel this way, we can like combat. Those things just become people. We were always meant to be. which is just ourselves and that's Michele. Thank you into my tedtalk. This is the only podcast on earth. Think for, thank you for having me on the only podcast. In this pandemic, what an honor I know the weightless so long. It is years, yeah. Say if you're looking for something to do during this time I might recommend a book of poetry written by assuring that is on Amazon called dime piece. Is Lovely well, thank you so much, sophie, thank you. I'm currently working on my next one so as nice. Thank you. Ever also since we're just another thing to do is just try masturbating that's. You know what I love you, so now's the time. Now's the time to really just like. Try to figure it out. When like you have so many hours in the day your action, you have exactly twenty four. That's that's that's a fact, but you have time to explore yourself if that's what you WanNa do and I'm sure many of you already doing that, but. This has been quite journey for me and doing your homework is a means a lot of things you know so just do your homework on your body on yourself on your mind. You know what that's. I've said my piece cool alrighty. Well. I don't really know how else to in the episode other than. I think a lot about all this and. Go ooh! Yeah and masturbate fo fuck yourself to fuck the world. That's the only message I have. I focused podcast on. IHEART media network IHEART radio network. It's ethnically ambiguous. Talk to people that are marginalized about their struggles in the world, and we also talk about ourselves. Being Children Immigrants I am serene. You can follow me at a Shiro. Hero S. H. E. E. R., O. H. E., R. O. ON INSTAGRAM on Twitter Chiro hero six six six. Thank you Sophie for plugging my ebook. I'm a filmmaker. Have some short films on my website you can. Just it's my everything is like in my twitter by or some Shit, I duNno, whatever figure it out, school, need but yeah. I have another podcast called the women's war. Check it out. It's upbeat. I also have nothing else. That is my whole life. Is these two podcasts and I returned to avoid in between space and time When you're not listening to me, so please listen again regularly and thanks for letting me ramble a little bit on this. Yeah thanks. Thanks for letting me ramble and go I know this longer episode that I just. I. talked up. I think it's good that you did. And he said the things you said so. Thank you for coming on and speaking candidly and. Again. Don't be weird about this beetle. Handling whatever? That is the episode. Jordan Magic Bird Barkley some of the greatest players to ever grace. The court played all together as a team only once as the nineteen ninety two Olympic Dream Team. I'm Jack McCallum Sports, illustrated writer, best-selling author, and now host of a new podcast. The Dream Team takes the real story of the greatest team in NBA history. For decades I've been writing about basketball and I was lucky enough to follow these guys from the earliest points of their career all the way to Olympic gold in ninety two. Together another two weeks a lot of problems, and now you can hear those voices along with the whole story of the greatest Olympic, or maybe just the greatest basketball team ever. The Dream Team takes from diversion. podcasts listened to the dream. Team takes on the iheartradio, APP on Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts starting Monday may eighteenth. Hey guys, bobby bones I host the bobby bones show, and I'm pretty much always sleepy, because I wake up at three o'clock in the morning a couple of hours later I get all my friends together. We get into a room and we do a radio show with our allies. We tell our stories. We try to find as much good in the world that. That we possibly can, and we looked through the news of the day that you'll care about also your favorite country artists are always stopping by to hang out and share their lives and music, too. So wake up with a bunch of my friends on ninety eight point seven W M Q in Washington. DC or wherever the rotates you on the iheartradio APP.
Rachael Ray: Up Close and Personal
"Hi, this is Christopher Kimball. Thanks for downloading this week's podcast you can go to our website one, seven, seven Milk Street Dot Com for recipes, culinary ideas from around the world or latest cookbooks. Now, here's this week's show. This is military radio PX I'm your host, Christopher. Kimball. Racer Ray made a last-minute today show appearance almost twenty years ago and was immediately signed by the Food Network and has been household name ever since as a celebrity among celebrities or like still produces awkward movements such as the time she invited her hero P- Tony Bennett, and his wife Susan over for. Dinner. I go to pull the chair out. He goes to sit down in the chair falls out from behind him and he hits his head on the marble counter. And I started screaming. In my husband who's got into the other room check on those. So BUCO. Comes Ready Oh my God, the only person calm in this whole situation is Susan. She's like Oh. He's fine. He'll pop right back up. Doing if you didn't. FIRST UPDATES my interview with Jarvis on the multi-million dollar launch of a new apple, the cosmic. Crisp. Brooke. Welcome to milk street. Hi thanks for having me. So we're about to witness the quote largest launch a produce item in American history. Yes, the cosmic Crisp Apple, which is also known as Wa- Thirty Eight which is the name under which it was developed. Now, this is a big change recently idea in the apple growing business it's value added Apple. So what's the value added apple? So. There's kind of a new generation of apples that people might have noticed in their grocery stores, things like envy or jazz or sweet tango or ludicrous they have excellent names That are apples that are proprietary managed brands. They're not something that just anybody can grow. They are often managed by. Cooperatives or companies or international consortiums that are very careful about the branding of the apple about supply and demand, and just the entire marketing a bit as a as a product in a way that. The apples. Of Not so long ago that we're familiar with including the red delicious but also things like gala or a wind sap we're not managed in that way. So years ago. There were thousands of righties, just wild apples. How would farmers or scientists? Come up with new apple varieties. What was the process? The process of breeding apples is fairly simple but what's interesting about it is that the plant doesn't breed true to the parent. So what you do is grafting instead of planting the seeds But yeah, as you say like in the nineteenth century, some counts show that in the United States growing fourteen thousand different varieties of. Apples and then the story and the twentieth century was very much standardization and consolidation here in Washington The Washington State Apple Commission used to advertise using a poster that showed stoplight and there was one apple each in red yellow and green because you know that was all you needed the way you would get a new hybrid let's say is Cross pollinate from one tree to another And then. Today's that's still how they do it or is there a more sophisticated way of? Crossbreeding. So at the The Washington State University Breeding Program. They get ten thousand new trees in a year and each and every one of them is genetically distinct and they plant the mount and give them a few years to produce fruit, and then taste that fruit and from there, go back into the lab to do lots of detailed testing on the storage in starch levels and all kinds of details on the apples that. You know appear to be. The most likely to be successful, but it's It's still very much. A melding of. Traditional Biology and Sophisticated lab work but the problem is unlike a fruit fly with a fairly short lifespan is going to take. Seven eight years to start bearing fruit for an apple tree something like that. It can be less than that. But the process is long because you WANNA have multiple generations of fruit. You know they'll start with just a few trees and as it appears that the fruit is more successful, they'll have more trees you have to wait for that generation. One of the people that I interviewed said biology is just a real problem here. which is funny because an apple, the biological product, but it is also now becoming. You know this product product of which different things are expected. A friend of mine he grows a lot of the old fashioned Fridays. And I have to say they have. Real Apple Flavor and I find the newer varieties tend to be juicy or sweet, but they don't have complex flavor is something by design. The people don't want. Sort of savviness in an apple or depth of flavour because I find the new ones are just sweet. Those a good question I may have I've certainly heard that same criticism from a lot of people including apple growers who are often frustrated by. What the consumer likes, you know the the grower will get really attached to a certain apple and think that it has a lot of depth of flavor and it's going to be really successful than it. It turns out not to be you know there there are thousands of these heirloom varieties, but supermarket is only GonNa Stock. So many commercial apple's so you have to appeal to a larger audience. So the goal is to dominate the apple industry with this one brand of apples cosmic crisp. Does this mean that people th they want people to just turn to it as they would have, let's say Mackintosh or Granny Smith is one of those. The go-to apple is that gold given the huge investment they put into the trees. The definitely want it to be a Goto Apple. What you always hear people in the industry says I don't want people going to the grocery store and on their list it's as apples on their list should say cosmic crisp and they should you know look around the store and ask the salesperson until they find it. There's one person that I interviewed who works for the Washington State. Tree. Association. Who people are always asking him which apple is going to be the next red delicious and what he always says is that you know you're sort of misunderstanding where the industry is right now that's like asking what car is going to be the next model t I think there's a general expectation that. You can't count on something dominating for very long anymore. Brooke. Thank you very much. It's been a real pleasure having a milk street. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. Jarvis her article launch was published in the California Sunday magazine. Now, it's time for my co Sara. Moulton. I to answer your coloring questions. Sarah is, of course, the star of Sara's weeknight meals on public television as well as the author of home cooking. One one. So, before we opened the phone lines I, just have a question. You cooked lot to leap French restaurant in New, York City Manhattan. What is it that you did there that you've never done again like a cooking technique culinary trick only worked in that restaurant you've never repeated. We used to make this smoked tongue and flog raw. Pat Day. It was absolutely killer and I don't think I will ever make that. Again you know you would poach the tongue with all sorts of Sally Darwood, poach it, and then we'd slice it on a meat slicer paper thin and it was my job to layer the fog Gras Mousse in between the layers, it was absolutely killer. So that was a unique technique of Sally's I. Don't think I will ever seen anywhere else and I certainly will never do it again. Well, I think in the next issue mostly will do tongue moose. Ahead, you could do chicken liver Mousse excellent idea just will keep that in mind. Thank you Sarah Yeah take call. Yes. Welcome to MILL STREET WHO'S CALLING Hi this is Sylvia from Brooklyn how are you? Oh, Hi Sylvia from Brooklyn Well, how can we help you today? I have two girls they're eight and five and I pack them school lunches every and I just need some. New Ideas for a school lunches but we have some restrictions. I can't serve an eat meat or chicken where they go through kosher school. So it needs to be dairy or PARV. which. Means neutral. This school is peanut free not free incessantly free. Well deal. Okay. What do you got for me? What did they usually like and what would have been hits I send them Bento boxes and everything that they eat is room temperature because there's no way to heat it right so I make them mini quiche as I mean some small individual pizzas. Like mini bagels with avocados spread but I need stuff that's filling and healthy. Well. How about like some Veggie meatballs that you dip in tomato sauce that has been a winner how about more of a Savory Pancake Zucchini, lot car or? With other vegetables in it, I wouldn't even after heat those up, I could just put them in the box streep exactly. Mike is as you like grain bowls. Rain whatever you want is the base and then put whatever you want with it. Especially do that. Have five compartments put green and the biggest. And the components in the other you could do Tortilla roll ups. Wiz A. Vegetable filling. The problem is those are GonNa get soggy though careful the other thing you can do is just a very, very thin omelette and have that be the role do as Spanish size here, which is made an Saute Pan. It's just very thick omelet with potatoes in it but you. Mostly potatoes and eggs. No I don't think that would freeze. So well, it only takes to make things in muffin costs and SMART that's smart cake in the Chin No that smart you've tried all sorts of whole grain muffins with all sorts of healthy things in them. So I've tried it and they complain their still hungry. How about smoke salmon do they eat locks? They love locks could you do roll up school because it smells? them how `Bout like? Pasta for Totta where you add pasta. Bake. that. Oh, you forty four you've you've really I if you written a book about this, almost I think you should do. That's a great book. For. Datta, in the petito Prada are good options. I'M GONNA, try small mouth and freeze them to see. You can make a thick multi grain fruit bar thing those are wonderful and you just make a whole tray of those and those last long time. How about F- lawful I mean you can make. The chickpea batter for. Takes. Chick peas you don't have to use Tahini. So you could scoop it out, fry it and then freeze it. How about with Garlic Yogurt dip that I could try yoga it's got some protein and yes, it does I just had an idea although there probably not kosher those rice paper wrappers because you can stuff those with vegetables and maybe even Tofu. Till. Like baked marinated Tofu and the Vermicelli noodles and. Great Carrots and Zucchini Yeah. That were sleeping. Are you a professional chef yes. I knew it i. knew what I like everything we mentioned. Already, she's like been there. You're okay. Thank you I'm GonNa. Let you. Pleased to. You so much. We learn more than you did thanks for calling. Take Care? I by. Welcome Milk Street WHO's calling? Hi this is Mike From Land Lakes Florida. How can we help you have a question about Cutting vegetables. Okay. Years Ago I had a visit to the doctor about my hand earning. Can. The doctor Said had arthritis? He gave me some sort of a topical treatment or shot or something that fixed it for a while. But now I notice when I'm doing something intensive like cutting a bunch of vegetables. My hands start to hurt. I figured out to use the food processor since it was sitting there on the counter. And that works pretty well for the most part. But I some questions about cutting at the onions. The first time I tried to chop up onions and the food processor I ended up with effectively an. Onion smoothie. Flick slushing there. And we noticed when we're eating whatever we cook that it had a very funky. Tanny. Didn't belong there flavor to it. So I converted from the blade in the bottom of the processor to the blade and the top of the food processor chop some rather than grinds into a smooth. And then I started pouring off that excess onion juice. And that seems to help. Quite, a bit improve the flavor. What's the deal with that onion juice stuff and what is it causing things to to come out pace them? Poorly, the more you breakdown garlic or onion. There's enzyme activity release compounds, and you're absolutely right onion juice if you process an who. Does. Have bitter compounds and that's been actually studied in a lab now. I- oddly enough make a tomato sauce grated onion. Which I really love but the greatest onion doesn't really release that much choose. So it's the juice juice sits around gets bidder. I do have a suggestion for you though about chopping vegetables, the Japanese vegetable knives are thinner blades sharper and they also have handled that I think are easier. They have octogonal handles as traditional. Japanese knife. And when they chop vegetables, they slice them that you know they slice through them. They don't chop the way the French too. So if you've got a good Japanese knife, it's vegetable knife like an Ecurie which looks like a Chinese cleaver except it's only two inches high. I Find I use those nice for vegetables and my hands don't hurt and it's much much less work. That's one thing. But you're right the juice. Juice is not a friend if you don't like bitter taste, well, the more that you chop an onion or rough it up the more you develop those compounds. Lies Thing I've found I almost never finely chopped onion anymore. You can coarsely chop on your for most recipes, soups and Stews, and that sort of thing. So. I trained in the French method which everything has to be exact and the Brune was the sun and the other thing they're very recipes. You need a very fine dice. So for most recipes, of course, chop is fine and that's much less work Sarah. Kim depends on how long it's in the recipe if you're doing a quick saute. Onions then it's just fine but not in recipes, of course, shop is fine. So anyway, thank you for calling. Okay, mic. Easier. Yes. Thank you. Okay. This is most your radio. If you have a cooking question, please give us a ring eight, five, five, four, two, six, nine, eight, four, three, that's eight, five, five, four, two, six, nine, eight, four, three or emails set questions and Milky Radio. Dot Com. Welcome to milk street WHO's calling? Sandy, Hi Sandy, where are you calling from? I'm calling from Palm Harbor. Florida. What can we help you with today? Thank you so much for taking my call. I just admire you both so much and I'm just really grateful that you do this to give the opportunity to ask these questions. So thank you so much. Well, thank you for having a question. Yeah. My question has to do with garlic always been told that you're supposed to never cook garlic at a high heat. So you don't burn it and get a bitter taste I come across so many recipes off the top of my head there's. Certain sheet pan recipe where they're trying to mix everything with garlic, and then you're blasting it and a high heat in the oven and I'm just wondering, is there a way to cook garlic on a higher heat without? Getting better, we'll let me ask a question in this particular recipe was the garlic whole cloves wasn't minced wasn't sliced while. Minced Oh doesn't sounds that doesn't sound like a good idea. I agree with your gut, what was tossed with what protein like chicken or I would guess it would be chicken. That's normally what it is. I'm that type of recipe GonNa Cook It. Yeah. Well, then I would think the GORLIC would burn by the time the chicken was done I mean if you'd said whole cloves and let's say they were sort of talked underneath the chicken or something probably they would have survived the ordeal but generally I don't Cook garlic at high I'm with you. I usually started you know she'd pin you can't help it or I might add it later to the sheet pan. Add things to the sheet pan in stages. There's no you know rule that you have to put it all in at once all the vegetables. All right now we have a recipe we call it trae baked chicken. It's its name we got from Nigel. Lawson. You put chicken parts on a baking tray and put garlic whole cloves pil-ho close in the middle with some herbs and stuff, and you can roast it along with a chicken he won't burn. Roasting a whole garlic it'll get a nice buttery creamy leave at in the skin or take it out of the skin. It's totally peeled close. Okay. Is Not a whole head and then when you take the chicken off, you add some water to the pan a few herbs, lemon juice, and you can actually whisk it on the pan with the chicken juices and it makes a wonderful sauce. So as long as the clove is whole, you're okay. But once you mincy, you're absolutely right do not WANNA use high heat in general high heat. In garlic's a bad idea. Yeah, I agree yeah. Okay. Oh that's a great idea that sounds delicious that sauce with the garlic and the lemon and so forth, I'll have to try that and just keep my garlic. Oh Yeah and and the great thing is those juices exude from the chicken as you bake it that's the basis of your sauce in all can be done on the sheep panic it's simple and it's great. Great Well Sandy thanks for calling. Thank you so much. Take Care bye-bye. You're listening to milk street radio next, it's Rachel Ray that's coming up right after this break. We spend one third of our lives asleep in bed. So the choice of mattresses well important and we all know that sleeping temperature is critical and the couples of course rarely agree on what the temperature to be. Well, the sleep number three sixty smart bed creates your own personal micro-climate sleepnumber also intelligently senses your every move automatically adjusting firmness, comfort and support on each side to keep both of you effortlessly comfortable and sleep number bed owners get almost an extra hour of sleep a night. The sleep number three sixty smart. Med. Also connects with your favorite health and wellness APPs. How you sleep. Sleep number also provides partner, snore and sleep IQ technology introducing the new temperature-balancing sleep number three, sixty smart bed save up to one thousand dollars on a new three, sixty smart bed plus smart adjustable base. Proven quality sleep is life changing sleep only at sleepnumber stores or at sleepnumber dot com, slash M I l K. One more time sleepnumber dot com slash M I L K. This is most your radio. I'm your host Christopher Kimball. Realize career could be entitled. A star is born she filled in as a last-minute guest on the today show almost twenty years ago driving through four feet of snow to get to New York for segment without roker food network executives saw loved it immediately signed her on and the rest is, of course history. Her latest Book Rich Array Fifty tells her story through autobiography and recipes. Rachel Ray Wilkins Milk Street thank you your new book which I love has a little thing in it and you say quote I'm a waitress at heart. And that sort of stopped me for a second. So what exactly did you mean by that? So my mom worked in restaurants for sixty years and my first memories in life are being on her hip in restaurants. So I don't know if it's part of my DNA but certainly the way I was raised it's very ingrained in me. Pleasing people feels good and it's part of my role. On the planet I. Like to give people what they're expecting into surprise them by surpassing that. and to me, that's that's what a good server does. So when I say I'm a waitress, I take that seriously and I think it's a compliment to be a very good server. It means that you are being compassionate to the people in your community were in the room. And it's it's my motivation. You also said your mother used declares as a pressure valve. That's the first time I've heard something like oh Yeah well, and you could also use it to. See how bad the situation was going to go for you. If my mother was a little upset with one of the three of us. First of all, if my mother is upset with one of her children, she's upset with all three of them. It doesn't matter the age when my brother was a baby. If my sister myself did something wrong all three of us were rotten children. Like she has to keep it even. and. You could tell how bad whatever the thing was that we did based on how large the box from the bakery one eclair you know okay it's not gonna be pleasant but in half an hour, we'll all be laughing and in our it'll be forgotten and we'll all be eating spaghetti. ANYTHING OVER TWO We were petrified. My mom used declares to. To commerce down, she loved pastry cream in dark chocolate and it's very funny. I don't love to bake. But one thing I learned how to master beautifully federal how to make my mother airs. For any situation that I deem necessary or just for her birthday or mother's Day. Learned quickly. Let's just do a quick recap of some of the highlights of your career. You were started out with the today show appearance now roker doing snowstorm, and then soon after the food network snapped you up, I didn't know this. You said that during the taping of your pilot on Emerald set. You started a small fire. was actually quite a large five I I it was like a good six seven foot flame at. But they still you on and say quote the brass there had faith and hired me even despite the fire. That's good. They took it really well, that's what happened was I was so nervous I just kept asking questions and I've never worked with any sort of assistance whatsoever. So the pre pro team had been pre heating my pan for like an hour and I had no idea. Of course, the second I put oil into the Pan Hoesch. Huge flame shoots up. and. They told me don't stop the camera that's not your job not for any reason. So I'm chuck in salt in throwing sheep in trying to save every set and I'm like shortest careers food network history. While I I think I told you but I did start a fire on the today show so. They did have. that. That's great. TV you had a great story in your book a state dinner visit at the white. House God which was. kind of disastrous or near disastrous. I'm only comfortable telling stories about myself that make people laugh or make them understand that we're all human in life never gets easier less. Than, your most awkward Dane, High School. This state dinner, I love the Obamas very much a known them since well before they were in the White, house. And Mrs Obama Michelle, Obama's initiatives were very closely aligned with my own improving the quality of school food in a radical hunger and lowering childhood obesity rates. So we get invited to the last state dinner at the White House. and. I picked address that I thought was great. It was October unfortunately it was unseasonably warm. It. was in the mid eighties and I was wearing a dress with a black turtleneck attached to the skirt and had no other choice. But to wear these giant. Autumnal ballgown with many many layers so I was melting. And a river runs through it like just sweat. Everywhere thank God. Is At least black, my hair. Fell within like three minutes and it was hours before you. There's all these lines you have to go through security. And I'm walking up the steps. And Shove my shoe I'm very bad walking in high heels through the underpinnings of the dress and it gets the giant. He'll gets all tangled and caught up in it and start to panic and I make it worse. So it ends up looking like almost like a wasp's nest or Hornets nest wrapped around my right foot. It was so bad by the time I got myself to the check in desk. The woman behind the desk had to literally go to an office, take scissors and come out while the people are getting checked in and I'm the entry way of the White House and they are cutting my dress apart that I probably haven't even paid for yet. They're cutting the dress off of my shoe so that I can continue to walk. So that has. got. A couple hours later, we finally are in the big room and everybody's finally sitting down to the big state dinner they walk us over to our seats. I'm seated at the head table next to the first lady. And I'm trying to whisper to her girlfriend to girlfriend a little bit of what happened and she's like, no pity for me this dress weighs twenty pounds. You also your story almost killed Tony. Bennett won't evening who was off and he told me I could tell people as long as I made sure to make it clear. It was completely my fault. And I'm such an enormous Tony Bennett fan my whole life I have a talk show and I get to meet Tony Bennett like I just couldn't believe it was even happening. And then he and his lovely wife Susan said, why don't we all get together some night and have dinner so they come over I'm feeding. Tony Bennett I'm so excited like this is such a big deal. I have my floors Polish for the first time ever because I live with a sixty five pound pit bull. So why bother making the floors extra shiny she scratches him up all day. And I have the orders in the champagne in one room on these hardwood floors. And in the opposite room. I'm setting the table. For, our dinner. So I take Tony Bennett up to the other room and Susan. My husband pours them their bubbly and I'm explaining all the snacks and Tony. It looks like he's looking around for a cherry wants to sit down. So He's holding his his she advantage exists. If I go to pull the chair out, he goes to sit down in it. The chair falls out from behind him and he hits his head on the Marble, counter? And drops to the floor and I start screaming. In my husband who's gone into the other room to check on. US. So BUCO. Comes running Oh. My God. The only person common. This whole situation is Susan she's like Oh. He's fine. He'll pop right back up. And If. He didn't. He ate more than everybody. He laughed he shook it right off he popped right up. I Love Tony Bennett and we've been great friends for many years and I'm really grateful I didn't kill him. Also, talk about being at your home seth like George and you talk This is my favorite one of the book quote I iron all the pillowcases and talk sheets. Now, you don't like ironing but I mean, that's I dislike it. I don't think anybody my households ever Irish she but my point being that you you feed the people you cook, you do the cleaning you don't live the lifestyle someone might think you do when you're not on the show. I like that work. and. It's always made me feel very happy. It makes my home feel like just that my home I don't want to look perfect I just wanted to look welcoming. And I like. The discipline of ironing, I don't enjoy ironing itself. I don't like hot in the steam comes up in your face and it is monotonous. It freaks the dog out. She's like the his esteem but iron because it feels good when I'm done and they make a bed with nice pillowcases and it, you just can't wait to get into it. You know like it's a big pile of fall leaves or something I love that feeling. So in order to get that feeling, you have to do the job. You mentioned your notebooks a lot. 'cause you. You use them constantly and you were quite miffed I think is the right word when the New York Times said that you didn't write your cookbooks but. Yet. It was all oil there in your notebook. The. New. York Times fees. They asked me what I think about food stylus. I said I. Love Them. My friend West makes things messy for me does all my books because if I can't be there cooking and I wanted to look like I did it that doesn't mean that I let other people right. Might my books and things for me? West. It actually writes some beautiful gluten free desserts for me but because I hate gluten free and I hate to bake and he got proper credit. In and that was just like Okay. That kind of stinks people don't think that I put the work in but I think we misconstrued each other. are a person who believes deeply kindness and yet in the last twenty years the world from my perspective seems a little less kind maybe social media, maybe the the press in general How do you reconcile that because kindness is important to you. You can only pay attention to the positive. My grandfather taught me as a little girl. And I always think lesser of people that come to me and say things just to be provocative or perpetuate negative feelings between people I just don't understand the purpose of that. Not Everybody's GonNa like everybody on the playground there was a whole website called I hate Rachel Ray for years, and they were devoted watchers viewers. Great. Not Everybody's going to like you and that's okay by me. Of course I vent when I go home, end the day to my husband to my dog. And you get it out of your system. You'll let go I really do believe. That The love you give is equal to the love you take I mean you you have to put good out to receive good back. Well, I don't. Think I know anybody who's putting more good out there than you. Thank you. My friend. Thank you. That means a lot. Rachel thank you for being in Milk Street it's a pleasure having you. It's an honor. It really is. That was Rachel Ray. Her latest book is Ray Fifty, memories and meals from sweet and savory life. Rachel Ray just turned fifty and so is Jennifer Aniston Jennifer Lopez Edward Norton and check black of course none of them look fifty. Maybe that's why celebrities celebrities who just turned seventy include Meryl Streep Richard. Gere. Bruce. SPRINGSTEEN and Jeff Bridges. They also dome their age and by the way, an amazing number of celebrities have lived to be one hundred including oper Berlin and George Burns. So to live long, you don't have to eat well or exercise. You just have to celebrity fame fortune and a long life some people just have it all. This time to chat with James Hirsch. About this recipe fresh with herbs and Pechory. Jam How are you? I'm doing great. Is Usual. You've been on the road I have. You just got back from Sardenia which is sort of the more rustic. That's possible version of Sicily. Traveled, very much. So it's an island off the western coast of Italy and fascinating part about. So Jimmy is that the cuisine evolved despite not because of the sea seafood around it. Many centuries been vader's drove the local population inland where they're cuisine evolved based on grains and produce and meat and dairy, and so seafood is actually only recent contribution to the cuisine. Going to the Carribean, you get fresh fish. Sounds familiar. You. Can come back with a Fisher's now I came back with the. Recipes. Let's start. What is art prego is simply the easiest pasta make at home I couldn't believe it. It's it's little nuggets pellets of Pasta that are made very similar couscous. Actually the difference between Prego and couscous is that after the fragrance is dried, it's then toasted. And that means that when you cook, it has a very chewy tender meaty texture and in addition to that, and this technique that we love it milk street frankly is almost always cooked in the sauce and so it absorbs so much more flavor than a typical possum boil in water. You made the mistake of mentioning couscous I, Remember Paula Wolford's first book back in the seventies you took three days to make. And now you said the simplest pasta. So why is it so simple to me? You can make it in about five or ten minutes like actual hands on time and you need no special equipment at all you take a bowl, you take your semolina flour. In the bowl you sprinkle some water in it and you rub your fingers around in kind of a circular motion and it clumps together. That's it. That's regular or you can buy it or you could buy it. Yes, and actually we give a cheat because semolina flour is a little hard to find. In the US if you don't feel like making your own even though it is very simple, you can actually buy the Pearl couscous and toast it yourself. It's very similar to real fragment. So what did you do with it? So I had any number of ways and believe it or not there is a seafood at the more authentic. is actually based on fresh herbs, tons and tons of fresh herbs, a little grandchild and what was really fascinating. Is Pork Gel yes. Exactly. Although we use pen chatter because it's a little bit easier to find here and what was fascinating to me is that they cooked it much in the style of a risotto they've put the fraudulent. With these other ingredients and they keep adding liquid and they keep starring in, keep adding liquid and keep storing, and eventually those little nuggets are plump and Chewy and tender earn little bit media and really flavorful because again, those other ingredients have cooked into the fray. Me When you travel through. Let's say Europe. They're still all these recipes that we don't really know hero. It's you'd think by now we would have sort of run the gamut, right but this is fresh with herbs and Peck Arena the recipe is something I've never really had before you go into these little villages and every time you turn around there's something we've never seen before never heard of that is just commonplace there. So thank you you went to Sardinia came back with the recipe for freckle with herbs and Pecker Reno can make it yourself or use Pearl couscous. Thank you Jim. Thank. You. You can get this recipe for regular with herbs and Peck Arena at one seven, seven street dot com. You're listening to radio coming up Aaron. Carol reveals the Health Effects of everyone's favourite indulgence that would be chocolate. We'll be right back. How. Would you like to learn to make homemade corn tortillas from Gabriella camera or learn the essentials of French pastry techniques from Dominique on sell or maybe learn about guerrilla gardening from Ron Finlay, the art of negotiation from FBI Chris Fos or maybe how to act from Helen Mirren or Samuel. L. Jackson. masterclass is an online resource that offers the very top people in their fields. They have over eighty five classes with new classes at it all the time you can take classes on your phone tablet, apple television or computer, and approximately ten to fifteen minutes in length masterclass lessons fit into any schedule and you can take lessons at your own pace and what I've learned is absolutely priceless dominique on sell me more about how to bake a chocolate cake than I learned in over forty years. I highly recommend you check it out get unlimited access to every masterclass. In Milk street listener you get fifteen percent off an annual membership go to masterclass dot com slash milk that's masterclass dot com slash M I L K for fifteen percent off masterclass. This is mostly radio I'm Christopher Kimball nextstep Sarah Multi will be taking more of your culinary questions. Welcome to milk street who is on the line. Hi. This is Allison Allison where you calling from. Idaho Oh. Nice. How can we help you today? Okay. So I have a question. We have some friends who are Romanian and they had a dinner party and they served traditional though vegetarian version of the stuffed cabbage rolls and They were totally different than any other. Cabbage rolls that I've ever had and they told me that they usually pickle or do something with their whole cabbage heads and I'd never heard of that before and thought it was really cool and I thought well, that would be really fun to try and make but it's really hard to find pickled cabbage heads and I thought well, I, wonder if I could put in. Our crowd or something to kind of mimic just that little bit of a tango with them. But I couldn't find anything online that would answer that question. So I thought I would ask you guys. Well, let me ask a question. So for these stuffed cabbage rolls was the cabbage itself pickled the role part that had the stuffing in it I mean, where was the pickled cabbage? They, take the whole cabbage head and they core it out and they put it in a brine in there like they did it themselves in buckets, and then they let it pickle like in a cool place like in a garage or something like that. The whole cabbage head is pickled and then they roll the filling and then I, think they actually cook there's over a fire 'cause there's a little bit of that smoky. Hint to it okay and then the stuffing, what are they used for the stuffing you know I don't know I'm assuming that it was some type you know how there's like the beyond Meat Bernard. And rice in it to okay. The unique flavor was that cabbage Habich because it was just a little bit pickled and it was so good. This kind of cabbage dishes like Bosnian Croatian Serbian Bulgarian sort of thing that there was this website called Balkan fresh. So I would check that out because it sounds like you don't WanNa make your own Chris is at the sort of thing you would make a whole there. Two ways to pickle one is fermentation, which is salt and water, and that's what they're doing here. They're taking heads of cabbage putting a barrel putting some seasonings if you like obviously Brian. Submerged covering was weights and letting it sit usually it's thirty to forty minutes a lot of work and it's well, if you did Arab panic cabbage heads, you be the game but you can also pickle overnight, which is sugar water and salt and flavourings, and that's only you wouldn't do a whole cap. De Leaves and you can do that overnight and that would pickle the catch. Them and then put them in that mixture or would you just put them that mixture raw? Well, if you're going to wrap into cabbage rolls stuffed cabbage, he would not blanche a I. I don't think I would just let it sit in the sit in the mixture. Yeah, and then The next. That's an interesting idea. I-. Sauerkraut won't work because it's already shredded I think actually I'm going to buy some heads a cabinet I think the idea of doing whole heads of cabbage that are cord is real simple. You just need a big barrel and throwing some chilies and some chilies would be juniper but you know it's Okay Chris? You Go. So you're GONNA, do some homework and you're to. Four next time we record or bringing you. pickled cabbage. But in the meanwhile, Alison, I would go for his quick pickle or go check out. Balkan fresh and see if they have the frozen. Sour cabbage head either you do if you do it just make sure it's fully submerged and keep in a cool dry place. Yes. Okay. All right. Take care. All right. Yes L. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Welcome to milk street WHO's calling? This is Patricia some self. Patricia from Philadelphia. What can we do for you? Today I have some yeast questions. So concerns, instant east versus regular east. Right. Normally I always have regular east around and then I read this recipe that looks interesting and it's calling for instance. My first question is, why does that recipe rider ever choose instant yeast and that sounds stupid I know it's like Duh because it's faster. But my second question is if I ran across one of these recipes and all I have at home is the regular? Is there some sort of algorithm of you know using a little more giving it more time that would allow me to substitute regular for the instant? Yes. Cool. We can answer all of your. Most of your questions. First of all regular active yeast has a lot of dead yeast cells around the outside of the granules, and that's why you have to prove it I in some warm water to activate. Because otherwise, it'll take too long. The reason people call for instant a rapid rise is those dead yeast cells are not on the outside, and therefore, you can actually just add the yeast directly to the flower that dry ingredients you don't even have to prove it. So it just. Moves that step. So that's why people call for secondly. Substitute active drive for instance, Easter vice versa one for one. Yeah. It's not a problem for. But active dry. You need ten minutes of three proofing in one hundred and ten or twenty degree water not hotter than that but you can use it for one. It's not a problem it may take a little longer. Bread to rise a little extra, maybe twenty percent twenty, five percent, but it'll be. Fat is such good news because I hate looking at a recipe and thinking Oh, but I was gonna go by the rapid rise fool. You know once you run out of your supply of active dry yeast, you might WANNA consider getting from King. Arthur. Flower. Their Label SAF which is the instant yeast and they tell you to just keep it in the freezer and then you just got it all the time you save money you don't buy those little packages. It has Chris said more little granules of yeast that are alive than the active dry yeast. Great. Okay. I'll go get that to thank you so much. Thanks for letting me talk to you. And I love this section of the show the best of all of course, it's the best what Chris does without just useless I know. Thanks for calling. Thank you very much. By. This is radio. Now it's time for one of our listeners who will reveal their best culinary hack. Hi, my name is Hannah and I'm calling with the cooking stiff about baking when I'm baking a generally leg her place, some of the dairy or some of the oil with either Sour Cream or yogurt. And then I like to add half a teaspoon extra of baking soda and it makes it really more a little bit. And always also gives a good rise. To share your cooking tips, military radio, please go to one seven, seven milks dot com slash radio tips. Next up. Let's hear from regular contributor. Dr Aaron Carroll. Dr Aaron Carroll. Welcome back to Milk Street always a pleasure and what is on your mind this week. I thought we might talk about chocolate and now it's not nearly the health food that a lot of recent media has made it out to be. Boy Really. Well. It's so funny because I feel like most of the time I come on to try to tell us that stuff that the media is trying to scare us out of is in his as bad as they say in this case and fortunately I'm here to talk down the other direction to say it's not as good as they're saying I mean come on it's chocolate. It's candy. It's not healthy. Well okay. But my wife's a health nut and from time to time investigate the pantry right to see what strange things she's bought recently and the Chia seeds. Kick counties, right so those are very much part of the sort of wellness diet, right kick cow. So I mean, first of all, it's important to understand that what literature medical literature it exists is often looking at specific component specifically cocoa flavonoids, and there have been some studies which show that if you get a certain dose of cocoa flavonoids did it might lead to slate reductions in blood pressure because they have an effect on blood vessels like nitrates do, and we often hear people get treated with nitrates when they have a heart attack opens blood vessels, it allows. For more blood to get where you need it to be, and that will also lower blood pressure. But if you if you look at sort of the dose in some of these studies, you'd have to eat about four and a half ounces of dark chocolate to get that dose of flavonoids. Seven hundred, fifty calories. If you're eating milk chocolate, you'd have to consume about forty ounces or about fifty eight hundred calories in order to get the dose that's not healthy. But so much of the research that has been done. To promote chocolate has been funded by the chocolate industry. There's like the Mars Center for Nutritional Studies I mean, I'm butchering the name a little bit, but it's along those lines. The vast majority of research is done by industry, and almost all of it is positive which leads us to believe that they're probably publishing the positive studies and burying the negative studies because of course, that's how research works. Almost nothing is universally positive in that way. So let let me stop you for a second. So when the industry does these studies which they all do. They do let's say they do twenty studies. Twelve of them are not. Supportive of their product and those get dumped in the circular file somewhere. In the eight that actually shows some promise support get sent out on the PR news wire. And we see this with pharmaceuticals and drugs. This isn't just the food industry that's guilty of this but at least studies of drugs have to be registered with the FDA. So we can go in and look at which studies do and do not get published with respect to studies funded by the Mars Center for Coco Health Science we have no idea how many studies they've done and then which they. Actually, choose to publish or not. But when we see almost all or all of them as being positive, you start to question things. We've also seen lots of evidence that they will do what we called outcome switching where they will initially say that they are they were looking for one thing let's say low blood pressure but then when that doesn't turn out to be positive, they look at other things. To try to find something that turns positive maybe mood, and then they'll publish just mood study, and of course, if you check enough things, you will find something to be positive. There was a journalist just a couple of years ago who actually conducted a fake study of chocolate in an effort to show how this could be done. So he he rounded up some people he got half of them to. Take chocolate or flannels and half of them not to then they did tons and tons of statistics to try to find one thing that turned out positive. Then they published it in a predatory journal they sent out press releases all over the country over the world for that matter, you know about how they showed the chocolate improves memories and news media all over the world picked it up ran with this. They actually covered and said, chocolate has been proven to do this. And the guy was just sitting I. Don't think he even thought it would go this far and then something like a year later he actually came out and talked about it, and of course, lots of people went got very angry and said, that's bake science you're destroying science but. They actually use the same and techniques that a lot of these companies and scientists will to try to find positive associations or positive outcomes to promote an agenda rather than looking at at true science. So so you would you'd have a control group and irregular group. One of them we get the chocolate or flavonoids one wouldn't, and then you'd measure let's say twenty different health aspects, mood, etc among these groups and if a measure that number of variables you're bound to find one or two that occurred in the group eating the chocolate versus the group that didn't right. That's exactly correct and so that's exactly what they did and they did it over and if you just published on the one positive results, this epson, all kinds of food studies pick almost any outcome you can think of you can probably find a chocolate study. Which shows that that it really will work but chocolate is candy and wallet. It's okay to have once in a while and I'm not going to demonize in that respect. No one should be under the illusion that chocolate especially as you eat it, not not some of the ingredients in there. But chocolate as you consume, it is going to be something that's going to help you more than it's going to hurt you. Of course you know it's always nice for mood and it makes people happy and if it's desert, that's great but it's not a health food. So in other words, you have to eat so much chocolate to get any potential benefit that should be eating. You know a thousand calories of chocolate get enough flame nor. So, the answer is each chocolate, it may make you happy but it's not going to necessarily make you any healthier correct and treated just like it is it's something extra it's desert it's chocolate it's not health food the next time please come back and tell me why bourbon good for me. Okay. I will do that absolutely I promise actor Carol thank you so much. Thank you. That was Dr Eric Carolis. The professor of Pediatrics at Indiana. School of Medicine also a regular contributor to the New York Times upshot, com. Earlier. In the show I spoke to Jarvis about the cosmic Crisp Apple. Crisp is being launched with ten million dollars marketing budget. So we've gone from a world with thousands of varieties to just a few. A market economy is supposed to deliver choice. But in the world of food, it seems to be delivering corporate consolidation. So I'll just keep picking my apples from trees I find in the woods they may have scabs and scars, but his for as like to say their their own apple. That's it. For today. If you tuned into later, just want listen again, you can download and subscribe to milk. Street radio wherever, you find your podcasts learn more about milk street. Please go to one, seven, seven, Milk Street, dot com there. You can download each week's recipe. Watch the new season of a television show browser online store or order our latest cookbook the new rules recipes that will change the way cook. You can also find us on facebook Christopher Kimble's milk street on instagram and twitter at one seven, seven milk street. We back next week and thanks as always for listening. Crisper Kimble's Milk Street radio is produced by milk. Street. In Association with Chiba. Executive Producer Melissa Tino senior editor was Alison Producer Anne sensabaugh associate producer Jackie no production Assistant Stephanie Cone Production. Help from Debbie Paddock. Senior Audio Engineer Douglas Sugar. Additional editing from Merrick Sydney Lewis and Haley Fager and audio mixing from Jay Allison at Atlantic public media in Woods Hole Massachusetts. Be Music by Chubut crew additional music by George Brendel Igwe. Christopher Kimble's Milk Street radio is distributed by P R.
Episode 150: Paul Bloom Insisted That We Talk About Sex Robots
"Very bad wizards is the podcast with philosopher my dad and psychologist, Dave Pizarro having an informal discussion about issues and science and ethics. Please note that the discussion contains bad words that I'm allowed to say and knowing my dad, some very inappropriate jokes. Here's to the drink habits. The only one I got the don't get me the trouble. Man plan. Anybody can have. Very, very good man, just say bad. Wisit, welcome to very bad wizards. I'm Tamla summers from the university of Houston, Dave, it's our hundred and fiftieth episode. We have to do something special, who would be the perfect guest for us to have for this milestone. Well, I mean Sam Harris obviously yeah, but absence. But instead you get me Jordan Peterson. Welcome to Jordan. Jordan. Finally, thank you. My lobster claws reach OT gentlemen in credit. This is by the way Paul bloom from Yale University. Thank you for having me back. We only had one pick temblor I knew is soon as we, we realized that we wanted to guest. There was only one answer as soon as Laurie Santo said. Know Brooks Brooks and Suzanne Regan. Reagan professor Reagan professor of psychology university really happy back and, hey, happy anniversary gentlemen. It's an English as a great events been great podcast. Used to say it was your favorite thing on the internet. That's what you used to say. Hey, he's honest, I sort of my views were shifting, and then I listened to your porn philosophical example language. And that honestly was the best thing on internet. So today we have in celebration a tightly structured episode. No taxi the opposite. So one of the things that was an early inspiration for this show was PTI right to some extent, part of part of the interruption sports show on ESPN. Yes, where they just go run down a bunch of different topics and talk about them for fairly short time. And we've been getting a lot of requests for a bunch of topics. And so we thought we'd just go through these topics with Paul and get pause, always entertaining, and insightful and non empathetic take on these topics and this promises to be fun. We have not. We have some ideas that topic some will be surprises. It's just, you know. And I, you know, for all of those waiting with baited breath, I think we're going to avoid Star Trek transporters and the prestige. But I can't promise that. Okay. So let's let's start off with a topic that a bunch of listeners and our read, it are separated. Have requested that we talk about and they're talking about it themselves. It was that ho, the hoax. That series of articles that were by former games guest. I don't know if I call him friend of the podcast, but former guest James, Lindsay and Peter, but goes in. They somebody else and Helen pluck roots and Helen pluck rose. Yes, right. They published under her name, right. A bunch of they got a bunch of papers published and several in period view journals, including high Patia. I think they did it in Rhys. There was a lot of criticism including our is of their earlier hoax which was published in what appeared to be a predatory journal that would publish pretty much anything. So they this time, they sent it to more more reputable though. Not particularly rep, reputable journals, I guess, high patients, the only one I'd heard of it includes journal of poetic therapy and fats that he's JP. Yeah, so but but Patia is, is a, you know, a prestigious journal. It was a, you know, to focus of quite a lot of controversy with Rebecca to Bell's article comparing transgender and transracial conceptions case where I think a lot of people including me, felt it patient acted disgracefully by, you know. You know, failing to support an author who is under siege, but now they themselves are having it another crisis. So let's you tweeted something somewhat sympathetic to to this new hoax. I saw Paul, I actually don't totally know what Dave things about this except that he didn't really wanna talk about it. But yes. So give us your, what's your opinion about it? Does it expose certain things that need to be exposed is a clever? So my views on a hoax change, somewhat. I what I said in my tweet, ultimately, I had a back and forth with some people was this would not happen. I think we'll journal like journal of philosophy or mind or one of several really high quality philosophy journals are theoretical journals. So it does say something about the journals they could be hoax. In this way. On the other hand, been critiques hoax, which I have found pretty convincing. There was one by somebody on at slate guys that was yet Daniel. Who who used to be in charge of the explainer, which I thought was was very good and and actually Bryan herb at from yellows posted some good stuff on that too. And these people pointed among other things that are was no control group. They didn't try to hoc other journals. And that I've heard people say that the articles they published at least one hip Patia weren't that bad now, maybe it says, maybe it says something about a journal that a bunch of people who come from another area could toss something to get published. But and again, I don't think you could do that with a high quality journal which would demand some expertise. But you know, I'm not sure if it shows everything that the hoaxers think it shows. Right. And you know, just to add a little bit to the deal there, they wrote Twenty-one fake papers. They took what like eight or ten months, sort of writing writing these papers and seven were published. I believe it seven in peer reviewed journals. Yeah. And so so. So as you say there's for for one, most of these papers were rejected. And what does that mean? Are they are those journals, high-quality are is scholarship in those journals, sort of meet the standards that even though they are, you know, in in this kind of domain of whatever we want to call it this, this brand of humanity's, does it say anything about the quality of the field that most most papers got rejected. I don't know. And, and again, there's no control group. One of the things that strikes me as as you pollen anger point out, like some of these are actually not, you know, the dog rape paper where they actually make up data would be kind of an interesting paper to right. I mean, you can you pepper it with language? That sounds absurd, but it it's faked data, right? And one of the things that I find not that distressing is if you fake data and use the language of field, you can get a paper published. Now, let's not forget Dietrich stoppable, who fake data and use the language of our field and did it disingenuously in the sense that he was trying to actually pass it off as real scientific. A real scientific contribution is, is that disingenuous compared to what they were doing? I mean, it's a different. It's a different kind of motivation. I don't know what you know. I, I was thinking if I were, did your stop and I got caught. I would say. I've been hoax field, but I've exposed the underbelly of social. I don't think that this said much more than the conceptual penis oaks. I mean, they put a lot of work into writing up papers that had the language of field. In some cases, the literature literature. Yeah, yeah. Like they went to great lengths to to to make points that other people have made. And I just would like to know what, what if you did this in another field? I think some feels would be more robust as Paul says, like maybe some analytic philosophy. I think at the end of the day, the the fields that they're mocking don't require hoaxes. I mean, you read, you read the actual papers and there is very little to distinguish the hoax papers from the real papers. And so if you wanna criticize, all you have to do is point your finger at the papers that have been published. I don't. I don't know what it saying and the the final thing is like this. This doesn't go, you know, they might be right or wrong about the quality of these articles, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth that they do this with such delight and that they spent this much time to try to take down people. That's that's my. That's exactly my first reaction like you would have to have a much higher. Opinion of your average journal than I do to be surprised that you published some things that you didn't mean. You know, by doing due diligence and like, I mean, that doesn't that part doesn't surprise me at all. What does the prize me is that someone would devote years of their lives trying to expose something about a field that they think have has no value. I mean, this is what I said this to James Lindsay, and I say it again here like if you don't think it has value than why are you have you spent the last five years obsessing over it? Why wouldn't you work on like we're giving a limited amount of time on this earth? Why wouldn't you work on something that you do think has value rather than trying to expose this little field somewhere that's not doing anything through some elaborate hoax. And yeah, the delight that they. Take in it that sort of smug kind of weak. Got you. Is just a lot of it speaks to what's what's bad about the way people are interacting these days, but that's part of it the way that people on the left responded to it as if it didn't say even a single thing about the quality of some of these journals. And as one of the writers who wrote about it said everyone is playing their assigned roles that's felt you know, like the right wing was celebrating it, triumphing it, and that, and that cadre of Sam Harris and Steven pinker and my stepmother. And you know they're all the like, this is great, you know, and then the the left, they're attacking Lindsey and pluck rose, and and they're defending the quality of the papers, which was, I guess, the one kind of irony of. Thing, but I just don't understand the mindset of somebody that would do that like that just seems non virtuous. Just a couple of very quickly. One is I agree, and in fact, off the ad, they acted in bad faith. In a lot of this dates quoted reviews papers at got rejected that simply said, kind things about the papers and then went ha. Yeah. But as somebody wanted to reviewers, when is it? Yeah, I get my reviews by saying something nice about the patriots, we suppose that's basic civility soccer. Yeah, exactly. Actually, I think the journals are being too quick to say, oh, is this right? Wing hoax? We don't need to be concerned, but I think the fact that some of these papers got and should be a matter of some concern for the for the journals and like you say, everybody's playing signed role, but most of all what I wanna do is want to sign blame to why they did all this and blame clearly lies the two of you. Because you because I listened to the podcast, everybody should go back and listen to how David hammer treated James Lindsay and his hoax. His initial hosts and plainly traumatizing that he left and voted tire time. So he could. He could show you guys. They can make it work. So blamed handed out, I just got it. Mentioned you too. I will accept causal responsibility, not powerless. Proudly in the sense that you know we're, we are two very humble gentlemen as as you all know. In this case, I think we were one of the early ones to to point out sort of that the that the hoax didn't say what it said. We weren't the first, but but I'm not. I don't regret having James Lindsay on and if it motivated him to do this then than so. One of my colleagues said their next hoax should be publishing a paper. They believe in good journal. That's one that we haven't. We haven't seen Jane. James Lindsay is like a train, and he's on trial is on a track, and then he comes to United verte and instead of plunging into one journal, he plunges into seven. I got a. What do you think drives them to do this? It's just a mindset that I can't get into like, what like, why would you like eighty percent of fields are ridiculous, like in journals are completely ridiculous. Like, why would you want to expose pick one of them and try to do this high publicity stunt? So in their defense, I was talking to a friend of mine who's conservative and he didn't say could quote, I won't say who it is, but he said to me, the problem is with with academics like me that there's a lot of really bad stuff being done at universities and people like me, don't do anything about it. We just we just roll our eyes and let that stuff go forward. And his view is that a lot of stuff in journals like the grievance studies is that kind of stuff I actually have of you'd at some of it is some of it isn't. But any case, you could say that that if it turns out this stuff is intellectually corrosive and really bad, it's a good thing too. Try to call attention to it and reveal its flaws. Make people do better work. This is the best spin I can think of the hoaxers. They're like people trying to rid the kademi of creationist white supremacists to say, look, look at how bad this stuff is. Yeah, but but you know, sometimes all you have to do is point out how bad something is. Right. So when I was young, I went and saw. Richard Dawkins, give a talk on creationism and this, you know, this was even before he was that cantankerous, but he simply used Krishna's literature. Yeah, and pointed that out. And this is a case where you know, you know what? I, it's a kin to maybe is is a critique of the art world where you can expose the sort of weird emperor has no clothes acceptance of shit art by creating shit art. And in some ways, maybe exit through the gift shop is, is the kind of thing that maybe they were going for where where at least one reading of that documentary is that they created a person hype that person and had them. Have very, very mediocre art show and in a high in a high visibility Benue and everybody just bought it. Yeah, and I don't know the dissonance there. I think that's what they want to see themselves at is, is that these journals are not high-powered journals. These people who are publishing in them aren't like the the toast of the LA modern art scene, and so like it's punching down in. It seems like now I know that know that that's a good point to feeling punching down those seem right. I mean, why pick on you know journal poetic therapy or right if you pull this hoax off on science or nature, will that becomes interesting. Exactly. Yes road, right. I think the answer is, you know why? Why do they do this? Is there berry motivated to. To vocally disagree with some of the views that people in these fields have and those views themselves are substantive views about, say, gender equality. They may not be right, but they are views that you could argue about. I think like you could actually write a paper saying, I think this field is wrong in the way that they treat gender studies and and make it maybe ten this kind of what you're saying. You could make a positive claim about this, the spirit with which they did this was and we talked to James about this, the spirit of mockery, and I'm not sure where I land on whether mockeries useful or not. But this this left about today. So this didn't change minds. Also. It's like this made everybody just feel more strongly about what they already believed. Nobody was surprised by this right in the way that you might be surprised about the art world being exposed. Yeah, but that's probably just because we don't know the art world that you know like. All right, let's move on. Okay. Yes, sex robots, should we go onto that one. So there was a. Devin opinion. I because I'm torn about this. So I need to know like you're gonna decide it both for yourself and for me. So there was a the reason we got a lot of listeners tweeting at us about this emailing us as because Houston was the intended site for the first American sex robot brothel. That's what they called. It really was a place where you could go and test out your sex robot rent a little room with them pay by the hour. I don't know how it worked, who was going to work. And then if you decided that you liked that sex robot, you could buy this extra. I do tiny bit of research into this. 'cause I know Dave was saying, in what sense are they robots? They look like, that's what I wanted. This is the interesting question to me which we'll get to in a second. Well, the, there's, there's some that are. Dolls, but some of them are warm and some of them make noise. Have sounds still a warm doll string in the back. I can't tell you any more. My research stalled at that point, I just went out like I do kind of impulse purchase, but. But, but so they were going to open this in Houston, and the mayor was against it. I great mayors Sylvester Turner said no, this, this is not the kind of business we want in Houston, and then the city council met in a kind of some sort of emergency session has a law that would make whatever they wanted to do a legal, at least for now they've blocked it. I don't know if they've moratorium it's like, and what they were saying was, I don't care what people do in their own homes, but. We don't want people going to have sex in a shop with dull like that's not a good look for Houston. We're not sin city. You know, this isn't they actually. The mayor said, sin city, which which is is an interesting turn of phrase for what? What arguably is masturbation. Right? Yeah, but masturbation like on public grams. Right. So that's the thing that that that that the council said that they were against is look, go crazy with your sex robot or whatever you want in your house, but you don't get to come into a public place and. So I took it that their their reaction. So there was a petition that said, this will lead to sex more sex trafficking and more prostitution. And that's bullshit right? There's no study that suggests that having sex with a robot dollar a doll is gonna make you more likely to to engage in sex trafficking or less likely this. Let's turn to. Let's her over to Paul because actually Paul byu you are on record with Sam Harrison York Times, call them about. Westworld arguing something like it's wrong to be sadistic to human like machines. Right is. So I gotta say I based on timeless description. I'm I have enough of libertarian instinct to think that it's none of the city's damn business. Whether people somebody sets of business where men go and masturbate in little rooms next to dolls or very nice women or or women. I guess I actually, I had a mental image of it being men, but of course, could be women to don't ahead. They have better things to do than worry about this. So salmon, I wrote something about about Westworld as a starting point that he based on on when I I went on his podcast because you guys were no longer having me on podcast. We Westworld. And and we turned us into an article. And what we argue is that in a case where there's real robots like indistinguishable from people, the very considerable moral hazards and one moral hazard is that they might be conscious. And if your conscious you should not harm them in slaved them tortured them, raped him, and so on for obvious reasons, just it's as bad as if it were a human. So within somewhat more more substantive more. Interestingly, we argue that if you can't tell the difference, even if it's not conscious, there are real moral risks to taking somebody who see is indistinguishable from a person and assaulting them and and I, it was some hesitancy because I'm not one of these people who think that video games, violent video games, violence simulations have bad effects. I think the evidence is that they have no long lasting bad affects all they don't make us being crew shooting people in video game. Does not make you should people in the real world. But my thought is, if you if you have somebody and they interact with a robot that it just seems to be a person. Only reason. They don't know. It's a person is because somebody told them and they torture the robot. They kill the robot. They raped a robot. It just my strong intuition as that this would have serious affects for how they deal with people. So in some way salmon, I make it exactly the con- point of view, which is concepts roughly. You know, there's nothing wrong in its own sake of harming animals, but it will affect how you treat people. Yeah. So. Why? Why are people assuming that you're gonna torture the sex just have sex with it like like if it's programmed to just give loving consensual sex? Like why? Yeah. So is the idea that people will just naturally go to to the rape place because they know it's a robot or so an article salmon, I wrote, we just talked about the case of being cruel to robots. We didn't make any claims about what proportion of people would be cruel to robots, I guess. So take your idea of go if your example of it, suppose you create a robot that's much smarter than your average person and and much more perceptive and verbal and contempt of. And so on you program within that robot an abiding desire to have sex with any paying customer. It's not obvious that's consent. Imagine if you were genetically engineer person. With that abiding we sent so so. Zooming conscious right. Like assume that it's not if you're not conscious, then then consent doesn't matter at all. It doesn't it. Oh, I see. Yeah, it would be the inaction of consent. So because I thought what you were talking about the torture that it's still wrong was under the assumption that it's not conscious so right. In fact, it was not consensual isn't really an issue. No, I think that that's right. If if you had to have hyper, if you had to have realistic robots are not conscious, I think there's reasons to say you could have consensual as it were sex with them, but you cannot assault them. Paul, like I think we had a back and forth on Twitter just a little bit because I was saying, if you're going to have a robot slaves, wouldn't it be much better to program them to enjoy the work? Like if you can do that, if you can actually program hyper realistic robot that will do all of the, you know widget making or whatever. Wouldn't it be great to have them derive happiness, but if you're in deriving, happiness, if you're enjoying things then conscious and they are slaves, they are, they, you cannot you should not be in a position to force them to do things. Yeah. Well, I mean, it turns on whether programming is forcing so so presumably we all have some degree of programming in the sense that our brains are computer like than that they process information and they do all that stuff and there's no we're conscious, but all of the things we do are for what you might call reasons or what you might call causes and so long as I feel like I freely agenda chose an option, you know, and I derive pleasure from it. I really don't care whether the universe programmed into me. So let me ask you the question I asked hammer then. So you have these conscious robots, and you're saying you get program ended desire to enjoy. Being subservient is that different for you than if you genetically engineered people with an equivalent desire. No. I mean, you know not to get all nerdy, but there is a the Star Trek series, deep space, nine. It was a long wasn't. We talked about this yesterday. We knew we were coming. Sex dolls in Huston and all of a sudden we're on deep space. Nine, I just I, I of first of all, I like how how Tamla Centric you made this as if our listeners cared that it was Houston, they did care about. We talk about robots and consent all this stuff like a lot before. Like one person pointed out that it was in Houston, and you're because it's used by people pointed at sub at feed, says, given that this is Houston yet. No, they're right that you might care more because it's Houston, but, but I think we would be talking about it anyway. Could be there. Could be fucking doll right now. I think it would be masturbated into the doll, but we'll get to that. But I think there's. Absolutely. There's a species that's been programmed to what to fight for the honor of the kingdom, right? And that's all the program to do they. In fact, if you prevent them from dying in in sort of honorable battle, they are very, very upset and it is clear from this science fiction story that the the species that engineered them genetically made them desire. This I. I struggle to see why it is a bad thing to genetically engineer, something that feels the same agency upon deciding, right. No, snuck nothing. Compulsory. Nothing undesired. They feel what we feel when they calculate what they wanna do. So they say, chocolate vanilla chocolate vanilla, I really, really like chocolate. What does it matter if they were programmed? Like at the end of the day, not to pull Sam Harris, aren't we all this? You know, you're right. Subjectively, it's the same. So subjectively, I'm torn by desires for say food when I'm hungry and drink when I'm thirsty and I didn't choose those and they seem all sorts of desires and so on. But I think somebody's richer has a richer life if they haven't been given the additional desire to be enslaved, then if they have so you know what would be really wrong. Is programming the the sex robots to not want? Yeah, yet being unable. So so I don't remember if we mentioned this before, but what seems really fucked up is if you say, bought a sex robot in really, we're talking about sex dolls that might have some basic things programmed into its spy. It's like Alexa with the body and you had sex with it and you programmed it to say no stop. Please know that that seems like I can't shake intuition that that's fucked up. That's fucked up because what does it say about you? Exactly. Yeah. No, that's where I think the action is so so I saw my intuition is is pretty strong that that that is that you are bad person, and that's in essence, what Westworld is doing by creating human like creatures that don't want to die. But so if we can go back to the sex robot. Brothel thing in Houston, isn't that just what Houston is saying that we don't want on our land to have a business that's going to corrupt the character of our citizens. And we have a right to do that as a city. So it turns on, I think whether or not these things, you know, like like Paul and Sam argued in their article, the hyper realistic nature of these things is is what I think might crept your character because in reality, these are like really just dolls that have some some very, very basic responsiveness. And that's what I think is ludicrous to prevent people from doing that. And so so I think good thought experiments are what really what constitutes a robot. Like if you temblor and I had a back, no, it was you Ellen. I, we're saying like, if you if you masturbate with your roomba. My room, like I, I would have angry sex. I don't like angry. That's not me at all, but that's how that's how we're just end up. Yeah, Houston strip clubs yet. I imagine it does like with like very well regarded ones NBA. Coming to. The sounds sounds like one of your pantheon extras. What are you discussed this? But I guess. I guess my point is in what world is, you know is lab our lap dances, fine. Yeah, but but but somebody masturbating into a plastic doll that that you know such, it really is, I guess the status quo bias it is, I think, or status bias, like the people who go to the Houston street. Games are really rich and the people who would go to this robot. It's CD and kind of pathetic. It brings back the sort of going into a video store and buying porn, or going into one of those movie theaters seventies in New York and jerking off in the theater. It's like, that's the thing I think that they don't want their. They don't mind like high class call girls in the city or high class, like strip clubs actually. What is the legal status of those? Like if you some some adult video stores, for instance, used to have these little booths where you could go watch video this obviously before the widespread availability of of internet porn, but they would have these little rooms that you would go into in San Francisco. Remember when I was in college, there was one of these in, but you would. You would go in and you would watch videos. And really there is what I felt. Bad for it was the guy who has to mop up at the end of the day, like is very, very clear that this was going on. Yeah, that's the thing that they don't want in the same way that when they cleaned up Times Square, I don't think it was an ethics thing as much as this isn't what we want. The like the middle of New York to be known for. Like all of a sudden they're robot sex district where everyone is going, how far away do you think we are in time till we get to a point where people purchase sex dolls, sex robot dolls that are more than those of comical. Plastic are blow up things, but but to some extent, indistinguishable from a person. So so this funny because I was interviewed on the local NPR about this and they asked me that too. Like how far how far intil until something like this is just it's not a big deal, open one of these things up and they're better. And I was thinking somewhere between ten and twenty years. That sounds right. It will come with self driving cars and yourself driving car, and I'll take you there. I mean, I think it will. I think we'll get there before we get real sort of real strong AI is that used to call it. We need a futurist, hopefully because like I don't wanna be like enslaved by something like. Master before I can have sex with like. Awesome. You'll you'll be the, you'll be in the brothel shit. She's worried that when realize AI comes on the scene get really pissed off at us for everything we've done. I think so that's why try to be anything digital. I try to be very kind to robots. One. Welcome in Soviet Russia, robot FOX. You. Who says, you need to plan ahead to have a good conversation. Is there any way we can merge the hoax? Like maybe like you could design a sex robot that would get accepted in the sex robot? Bravo, actually. Will you designed it. I was thinking about, I was, I was thinking that the designer be like, ha, I we'll do is jerking off into a doll by calling it a robot. So we very quickly talk about whether it's masturbating. One of these rudimentary robe always had a problem with the classic sort of John height scenarios that attempt to point to serve moral dumbfounded. One of one of the examples of uses is that you have sex into a dead chicken or you have sex with the carcass of chicken, and I always thought the calling it sex was a weird thing. This is clearly jerking off. I mean, a flashlight, isn't sex. I once strike to argue a bunch of people, and I did not convince anybody that pornographic actors in pornographic films are not actually having sex just acting as if to having sex. Oh, that's and this is in fact why laws on prostitution? I under- one rule don't don't block the creation of pornographic films because even though these people are paid, they're not pay to have sex to pay to act right after having sex. That's super deep isn't I mean talk about letter of the law, but now wait a minute. This sounds like something that is really a family resemblance kind of thing. It may well be saying there's no necessary and sufficient conditions for colleague, something sex. So one of the questions that that you might ask is what's cheating. I take it that most people would say that masturbating pornography is not cheating. It might be some sort of breach of trust, but it's not infidelity Russ rustling doubt it. I know pronouncing his name right rust out at who writes, when your time's conservative wrote an article once that was widely mocked. I thought it was actually very interesting what he argued. Pornography was cheating. It was plainly. It's a certain sorta cheating, less intense with a person, but still it has a major important features of cheating. He acted. Yeah, my intuition is that it is not cheating. It might be an infraction. Yeah. If two people's say, let's watch porn together. For instance, it's it's, it's not a threesome. As much as you would love it, you can't doesn't. That doesn't. That's how style argue. It gets more interesting when you have a live person on the other line. Like in these these? Yes, right? Yes. And and they're, it's like, I find I struggle with my intuition because if you had a prerecorded version of somebody on the other end doing and saying all those same things, it would feel like much less cheating somebody who's actually responding to you contingently over even though they're paid. That's right. That's right. There's something about the interaction with another human being that makes it feel like moves from not not cheating, maybe some other infraction to actually infidelity, and certainly if you wasn't paid, but it was a relationship, but for sure people never any physical contact. They engage in sex over the the phone or the FaceTime definitely would count as some sort of cheating people would be right there. Then tuition that being with a prostitute though is much less obviously cheating. Then being with a like another one, another woman that you're not paying because there's an almost objectification or commercial transaction. Yeah, exactly. Somewhere between watching porn and actually having an affair. Yeah. I mean, I think that many people would say, like you're already strongly on the side of cheating at that point. And now now that we've all you know, now that we agree that this is all some sort of infidelity that it would be worse to have an actual to actually interact with somebody and convince them to have sex with. You seems indicative of some sort of emotional relationship in a way that paid sex does not. And so it feels more like a breach in the same way that having an intimate emotional relationship with somebody with no physical contact might be a preach seems right, but pornography just to be clear. Pornography is not cheating. Okay. It is what your partner says. It is. Rush. I'm sorry. So that is that mean rust? Doubt, doubt. Nobody knows how to pronounce the. I don't think it's a single person in America that knows how to pronounce his name, but he's sort of tacitly saying then he's never watched porn. Like, does he not. Know what's out there? No, I read article a long time ago. I didn't prepare for this podcast, but. We didn't know we end up here, but, but he just talked about he just raised the same questions we're asking. Now, if it's if you're if you're talking to somebody on the phone, if you're. What about Arrese and and I think he just made the point that that to say unless it sort of actual intercourse with another person. It's fine. Seems doesn't seem psychologically morally realistic. And we have the intuition that dreaming about having sex with another person is not cheap, but that's because involuntary. It, it might be involuntary and the local sense. Oh, I see. But you might actually spend your days fantasizing about somebody enough that they make it into your well. Well, if with the intention of getting dream, then I'm not only it's not only infidelity so form of sexual harassment. Dreams are nature's robot brothels. I want to say by the way that whatever is porn, viewing habits are really like Russ's death that he's one of the few columnist just either side that I read. Religiously to speak. Yes. So to speak. Yeah. You know, this actually seems like a good bridge too perverse desires which you are. Oh, sit in Paul. I've just been thinking about over last little while in part because I had a conversation in Kentucky with a philosopher Bryant Keeley and he told me. He's he's awesome. He was awesome. And he was telling us a Paul fire Evans. I may not be the radical philosophy science, his name, right? Fire app the he's he's not. Yeah, Phira band or something. I don't know anyway, he apparently is at one point and this may not be true, but it's an interesting idea said he felt that it's very important for people to retain their freedom, and even if you get like really good arguments for a position, it could be expression of freedom to reject that position. And so sort of hundred arguments in favor of global warming exists. But I'm going to serve my freedom and say to hell with you, it doesn't. I'm gonna vote for Trump. I'm going to smoke that cigarette. And if you think about specific examples, it's kinda crazy, you know, you should. You should try to use to believe stuff which is true, assert your free and act. So that's in ways which. Which rational, but I've liked idea that often, psychologists often describe perverse actions is kind of a glitch in the system like you say to yourself? I'm really not gonna. I, it's like the white beard studies have Dan Wagner where you try to focus on. If you told not to think of white bears, you'll think of them. If you're not to think racial stereotypes, they'll come to mind. And so psychologists like Wagner, think of perverse actions as a glitch into system where things that you don't want not to do spill out. But I've gotten really interesting that you call ex central perversity where you say to yourself. I'm don't want to feel constrained to do that, which is rational and smart, and I'm going to rebel. And so I think that this hasn't to terrible twos with adolescents, rebellion midlife crisis. And I think in small doses, it could be fine and interesting. So this is the underground man, right? Like the whole album underground is a guy explicitly doing this this licitly going against. Right. And I think that's really interesting, and he even says to write that it's I'm doing this to assert my freedom because it's at a time where that deterministic world is is gaining prominence. And so he so he does these perverse things, you know, at least this is what he says, yes. But I agree though that this is that there is something good about it, and it speaks to a certain need or deficit that we have. So I read your like a draft of something about this and it speaks to something that's lacking in our lives when we act. That's that that accounts, at least in part for the appeal of of doing some of these things that are clearly bad for us. Like I think. That is that we feel like our lives are too regimented that there's no adventure, like it's like that there's no, there's not enough unknown. There's not enough freedom. Yeah, I mean freedom, I guess. And so these desires are our way of lashing out against that sometimes. Yeah. I mean, if I always do what makes sense, what's rat believes rational, do what makes sense? What you my, what uses my consciousness? I just so just an algorithm running out the algorithm. I unfortunately didn't have time to to read what you said. You had plenty plenty of time. It wasn't that long. Wet from meeting to beating meeting straight to recording. So I didn't even see the Email I'm in the dark, but with so without reading, let me engage in a way that maybe disagrees with you guys. I think that that pissed Amal which is one of the domains that that you were using example, I've put her this before, like rationality dictates that you acquire a certain set of beliefs often, right? So so you ought to believe what's true and the method by which you acquire these beliefs, you hope it's a reliable one. And if you don't pay attention to those and with the wrong answer, it's, you know, it's you are. You're just wrong. And and I think that there's an interesting difference between epistemology and just say action and other domains where pissed them all. It doesn't upset me that I have zero freedom. That is. It is construed. Reigned in a way that I, I would want it to be constrained. I, I don't feel I don't feel like my freedom is being impinged upon by the constraints that rationality gives me. Now, if it were like boiling down to things like, what do I wanna do today with my free time, of course, right. Like I won't like, fuck, fuck your constraints, but, but I just don't feel like it's, it's you're just being stupid to flip to throw your middle finger at at. Something that is logical, but we're the big parts of Paul's examples aren't. I'm going to believe something I don't think is true. It's more that I'm going to do something that's bad for me, but I'm also thinking to believe case just on the fly. I think consider acts of faith religious faith. Often, I think people see cases where there really isn't an answer and I think they take some pleasure in fixing on a belief that is unsupported and has a different case than you know, I refuse to believe that I've usable even climate change, whatever where I sorta doggedly turn away from the facts. But instead of case we're just aren't enough guiding facts. And so you take advantage of freedom to believe and you you kind of settled on something, right? I'm happy about this because it isn't really the way I go, but I. Trying to get some sympathy for that way of thinking. Yeah. I mean, in some sense, the Kirkegaard right leap of faith is, is that I mean, I, I wonder having having been raised in religion that is concerned with defending faith rationally you know, it's, it's not often that you run into somebody who is willing to admit that there is no rational basis for the police. But rather they tried to give you sort of whatever arguments that are internal to the bible or something. But I feel like in the absence of reason to believe one thing or another it is, it's not perverse. Like if it truly is that you have that you have no ability to distinguish a false claim. Burma true claim, then sure. Like by all means, pick your pick, pick whatever you want, but what else could you do. Well, you could not believe at all. You could just keep you could not take any leap. I, I guess you're right. I mean. That's right, because isn't faith. That's perfectly rational. If you don't have reasonably not to believe even after his no reason, you know, even after is no evidence that contrary of a belief just plucking one a random and saying, I'm gonna believe in this because there's no reason against it seems to be a mildly perverse act. It doesn't rise at a full perversity of sitting into voting booth as a committed democrat and liberal. And then just saying. Vote for Trump them. I could. Nothing's going to stop me. That's the thing that I think is like the belief one is less convincing to me, although I, I like it as a way of trying to justify certain faith based beliefs. But it's the actions that I think is the. You like to ride your bicycle without a helmet on? No, that kind of thing that's actually rational and right. Hamblur believed it was more. I don't for it to be to be perverse. You have to believe that riding without a helmet is more dangerous and the pleasure you get isn't worth it really, but then doing it anyway. No, I just have to be against this Syrian refugee ban. I think if you wear a helmet, you are logically committed to supporting the Syrian refugee band because you're that concerned about safety that you think that you have to like in all cases just optimize the chances. You won't die by the tiniest most negligible amount. So that's against this here. I think we should accept more Syrian refugees so I will wear a helmet. I mean, I won't wear. You're a formidable debaters. He's giving ample of temp flouting rationality has no, but like I. So the part that's that I thought was interesting is that this idea of being controlled rationally is not that we actually feel banned by the laws of reason in in a strict sense, but that we feel entrapped by always doing what's good, like what's good for us or what's sensible smart. And there is something just inherently intrinsically appealing about just going against that for just like, I don't give a fuck just for the hell of it kind of theirs which we wouldn't have if we live different kinds of lives. Like then like being sensible would seem kind of awesome and sexy. There's a wonderful book which I talk about my piece by is written by Gretchen Rubin, and I forget what. Collaboration photographer whose last name is holy and and it's called profane waste, and it's a series of photographs of people destroying stuff for no reason, setting fire upsetting fire the money pouring champagne down the bathtub. And it's kind of exhilarating to look at these photographs. And it's like, I mean, somebody I give an example Bank. See, you know, having pitch shredded upon sale, but I'm not sure that counts as a real perverse act because everybody made a lot of money off of it. Exactly that it seems perverse as sort of medicine. Yes, exactly. Like look, perverse act now, pay me. Was a great example from this philosopher Sussman yes, an article for badness sake that also got me thinking about this and he talks about he's beautiful icicles. You see? And sometimes it's just so much fun to smash. You know, there's a reason there's a Shiva, the destroyer God, where it might be actually some some deep delight in bringing chaos to order. You think we can move this part to the front, put the porn stuff, but this extra. So, okay, can we take a break? I, my bladder wants to take a break. I'm kind of worried about a sexual but thing. But the perverse, it's such a high level duster esque character guard. Destroyer. So smart. Great story. This is going to be the Mitch high level of this Oxford Don who's on this rowboat Sunday thing in a nude and all of a sudden, this troupe of students comes by and he takes his hat and he puts it on his face. Because you think he would cover up his groin. Yeah, that's smart, smart easy. It's it's. Say just for. I know you're telling jokes. Parable humorous, and it's. For our times. Madam call to arms. It's a shifts. Welcome back to very bad wizards. At this point, we like to thank everybody for all your support. People who write us, people who support us. If you would like to get ahold of us Email us very bad wizards, g mail dot com. You can tweet to us at very bad wizards at Pease at Tamla. You can join the discussions, the lively discussions on Facebook dot com slash very bad wizards or read it dot com. Slash are slash very bad wizards for that sub. Read it get some indepth discussion with other listeners always smart, and you can follow us on Instagram as well at the very bad wizards account. You can support us in more tangible ways by going to our very bad wizards dot com. Slash support page there. You will find the various ways in which you can spurred us. You can give us a one time, pay pal donation. You can shop on Amazon, which is always great through our link, and you can go to our patriarch page. Thank you so much to all those people who sign up for even the smallest of regular contributions. We appreciate you showing appreciation. Thank you all. For all your support and we look forward to hearing from you for last topic or maybe our last topic giving the Red Sox game ever. Ever? Yeah. After this episode I dunno, I thought it'd be we did. We've started this over six years ago. This is our one hundred fiftieth episode and podcasts themselves have undergone quite a transformation. Also in academia, I think what we were doing when we started, this was regarded with mockery by a lot of people, especially Sean Nikko's, but. Still mocks it actually. But yeah, and now I think podcasts have become a more respected, and also I think somewhat beloved by a lot of people. It was more of a niche thing. You were one of the few people I knew who are really into podcasts when I was trying to think about this idea, you know of doing this thought we'd talk about what's what makes what makes podcasts good way of discussing ideas in the media in a way that doesn't seem as poisoned by this kind of toxic polarization that we see in a lot of other venues. There does seem like something about podcasts that allow people to really wrestle with things in a more in a more complex and nuanced way. So let me ask you guys just as a way to get into that. You've been doing this for a while and like you say, the landscape has changed, but also you have changed. So. This is such a an NPR question, but what what have you learned? What have you learned over? Let's I'm sorry, I just feel like so awful. Say that, but I'm actually curious like maybe if you go to your past sells you listen to, what do you do now? That's better. That is a good question. I see that that I don't know. Because we don't go to past episodes. Yeah, in in some sense, this has been over six years such a, I don't know. Temblor Di sometimes referred is our own therapy right? Where where one of the reasons we've been consistent in putting out episodes every other week or at least most labor that they're week is that that gives us some some respite. Some, some I dunno stimulation that we might not get from from our regular academic life. And in doing that, it's really hard for me to to say in what way of changed. Because when you grow slow, if we have grown at all, like we discussed the other day that it might be scary that we've matured over the course of this podcast because. Because I don't know, you know that changing a weird. Scary thing. We're not as repugnant as we used to be according to. Sure. I, you know, I it you shape curve. Where do you start it off? Real foul and repugnance and anarchy. And then and then you you had your sort of middle period where you worry maybe a bit of pushback, maybe just age got to you. And then all of a sudden for the last few episodes you really been getting back into your own. Maybe freedom of finally old age. And so what I've learned, I feel like is more or less about what we're good at or how we've improved. But like I've learned a lot about the medium I feel like and also about our listen rose and most of what I've learned is really positive just that there are so many people out there who are just really good people really smart and really generous. I mean, you know, our supporters are so generous and the people who interact with us. And even when they disagree with us, I don't know. It's so rare that we get people trashing us or taking cheap shots at us. It's almost always when they disagree with us in exactly the way you would hope that someone would disagree with you and just think that's something and I don't know what it is, but it's something that podcast allow you to do that. It doesn't seem like other. Other media right now is is is very good at. Let me just to add to that. Ashley agreed that that what we've learned in part because self reflection is hard is is that and it's in stark contrast to the way that people described the polarization of of sort of public discourse where not only do people who disagree with us do so respectfully, like literally ninety nine percent of the time where they'll engage with us in the way that that you, you would want human beings to gauge with each other. But we've seen, I think in both Facebook discussion and in the red, it discussions. People who you know, we have listeners who go from from like, what, what somebody might describe as as you know, pretty far right to pretty far left and to see those people sometimes talking to each other in ways that are actually respectful. It actually blows my mind and it gives me, you know, we've said it actually it. It actually gives me some hope for. For just humanity. Oh my God. I regret my questions so much. You're both. His humanity. Just this current moment that we're in. I think you can get trapped in how people like throw tantrums on Twitter and think that that represents how people are really interactive. And it just isn't like that. I think in some way speaks speaks to what you're kind of podcast is there's probably an official taxonomy, but there's some podcast, this American life. We call it a podcast. Some some shows you listen to the car, which are all curated and planned out. But what you have is a conversation and you listen to to people who are likeable and smarter having a conversation, you know, unless there's something really wrong with you, maybe you'll turn it off. You're bored. But if you listen to it, you'll treat them as people and you'll connect them as people. It's not sort of show you're watching that you might have all sorts of us about you become part of the conversation. And the podcast I like most are either conversations like this or interviews, but I like I like. Two or three people talking. Yeah, and if they're if they're you, you know, we have a lot of people who say, I feel like you guys are my friends. You know, even though I don't know you and I feel that way about podcasts that I listen to because there's that sort of informal atmosphere that there's a kind of warmth to it, something that I think people are drawn to. I know I'm drawn to it like if I'm traveling and feeling lonely, I'll put on the podcast and then I feel not lonely anymore. Even though I'm still by myself listening to my phone. You know, I, I think that that the medium itself is is really interesting. I mean, it's it's allowed. It's allowed for this kind of conversational lengthy discussion where you know the one thing that I have noticed I noticed early on is that when say, I'm talking Tam, lower, you know, we're looking at each other on Skype and it really feels like I'm just talking Tamla there is, you know, we've, we've all been on radio and maybe even on TV and the the way in which you are aware of the audience really, really influences the kind of thing you say and how you say it. And with this, you know, after like a few minutes, you just forget that might be published to other people and you talk in an intimate, intimate nut, not in the way the temblor would like, but in intimate fashion. Forgetting and and I think that there is something like I have this theory that maybe complete bullshit, but it is that because podcast or so often consumed privately often with headphones on through your phone that there is something that adds to that feeling of knowing somebody because you're in some ways doing what you would do when you're talking to someone else like you are, you know they're pumping right into your ear much the same way that a phone conversation would be pumped interior. And I think that's a low level reason why we actually come to really like and feel like we know other pocket because I certainly have that feeling for other podcasters. Yeah, I mean at two or almost literally and people's heads. Right? But then there's also this though, so as recline is a podcast that I listen to. He's that's an interview podcast, and I feel like on his podcast, there is. Is so much really interesting wrestling with the position that he's supposed to believe in really entertaining objections, serious objections to its views and his guests from various sides of the spectrum. But even when he has someone on who agrees with him, he's still they're both sort of pressing themselves and challenging themselves in a way that I definitely don't see on vox like the the, the website that he started, which Ed just feels like it's pressing and pounding as specific point of view. Without that same nuance, you know, I think it's not just that he's in my ear 'cause I particularly like his voice, but it's that there is something about this conversation structure that just allows for that in a way that media doesn't seem to right now or print media, blah internet. Internet media doesn't seem to. It's the, I don't know if it's payment thing. It's a thing, but there's something and you know, we complain a lot about the intellectual tone of times in Seoul, hateful and terrible, but but there was something we all have now which we didn't have ten years ago, which is what you're talking about, which is at any point you could go and listen to two or three intelligent people. Talk about interesting things often from different perspectives, and if you choose your podcast right, just be exhilarating. This genuinely new, they didn't, you know, wasn't always around. You know the, the other thing that I've learned about our audience is that I think when Tam learn, I started this, we thought that our audience would largely be. People who were in graduate school in in one of our fields, like philosophy or psychology. What I've learned over the years is whatever we say something like that. We actually hear from people like the size of art. It's grown tremendously such that there's no possible way that they're all graduate students. But we also hear from people from all walks of life who actually have a real deep interest in the topics that we cover, even if they don't have any formal education in this. That's that's fun. In some ways, it's like Paul, you and I teach interests like when we are able to talk and sort of normal language and get somebody excited about a topic that would not have been otherwise. This is kind of like that writ large, where where we are getting people to think about get your cases and in that way. What what, what we're talking about podcast and teaching complete together. So it always the prizes me that of all the things I've done. Books and articles and so on. It's poss- my interest courses course has had the most impact it came out on YouTube and on the AL open Yale, and a lot of people watched it and where we're actually making a sequel. This is the first announcement of it. I don't know when it's gonna come out because finishing touches, but on course Sierra, it'll be interesting. Revised and expanded intro psych, and I guess I wanna do you both teach is to some extent the skills you get from from the sort of dialogue in pod in this podcast, transferable to teaching entirely different? That's a good question. I think that when I feel like I'm teaching at my best, it is where I'm show. I'm. Showing positive excitement about a topic and that excitement and enthusiasm is infectious. Yes, students. And so they become excited about something they wouldn't have otherwise been. And I do think that's our best podcasts is when like the bore Hayes episodes that we did recently or the, you know, my form of teaching that I love is when I'm like exploring this thing with the students like we're on the same team trying to get to the bottom of it. And the thing that I'm doing is modeling a way of approaching it not telling them what to think or even telling them, you know, or even knowing myself, what I think about it with Plato or something like that. Like, I'm, we're going into this kind of as a team, and that's how I feel like with these podcasts. Sometimes, especially my favorite ones is that's the goal. There is modeling away. Of of of talking about something but not modeling a desk, a view, or even knowing myself. What my view is. It's nice way to put it. I agree with everything Tamla said, but, but there's an another sense in which I find it's really different from teaching, which is maybe this is by dint of teaching interest, which is. Your role is that of the expert, and you are trying to make ideas palpable to to the students by doing it in an entertaining fashion. And I think but the the difference between teaching and even I think in a seminar where I have some expertise, even though I'm trying to model thinking for them and and says, treat him as intellectual equals struggle radius. I'm still the expert. And while I might jokingly say that I'm always expert on this podcast. The real difference is that I think what what are the things I'm most proud of is that. Temblor and I approach these topics as really qu'ils and if there's anything we modeled that I'm I'm very proud of is that of vehement disagreement without. Bitterness or anger at least not in depth. So it's published that that it is fine to that. It is fine to disagree and argue, and even have heated arguments in a way that doesn't take away from the respect we have from each other. And this gets back to the thing that we started with, but I am proud of of of that that aspect and it feels really different to me. And there's a kind of podcasts that I don't like the pod, save America style of podcast, where it is more just like everybody agrees with each other, and they're just finding ways to to, actually I'm thinking of it back when it was keeping sixteen hundred. I haven't. I don't think I've listened to single second of pod saving America. Maybe they've changed. I listened to one last week and they haven't changed. They have. It's it's people who have used which largely but cheering each other on and I find it impossible. Listen to. Yeah. That's that's how that's how I felt about them back when you know like they were doing the Trump Hillary election and but there is there's a reason why they're so successful. So like that. I think that does appeal to some people. It's the op. It doesn't appeal to me at all. Like that's exactly what I think podcasts are good at avoiding. There's a sweet spot which I think you guys and I see exemplify where you're not like cheering each other on on us. God disagreement sometime serious ones, but you agree on noth- to make it a productive conversation into reality as you stick to people have very different views. Often often they're simply the over political social. Sexual matters is impossible for not to have a good conversation. You need a mediator to make it a public debate or something, but you know, you're not going to get. I don't know the national association Sam Harris. Have a wonderful podcast together. And so so so, but you need to, there's a certain degree of disagreement, I think is necessary to make it interesting. Do you think we agree more now than we used to? It feels like our disagreements are rarer than they used to be. Yeah, yeah, I think so. But I think part of it is that we've settled on knowing like I've settled on knowing what you like how, for instance, you've you the role of say, intuitions, as prime primary and moral judgments and how you're a pluralist. Like I know that it won't be so fruitful to to get into arguments about those things in the way that we did in earlier episodes because we, we kind of know already that in so art, we're looking that you have that you have the intuition that you're right, and therefore we're looking at, you must be looking back. I remember the worse fight. You guys got into like that made it onto the podcast. In my memory. It was something to child raising and sex difference. Yeah, and and I was listening to it and it was like a mummy and daddy are fighting moment. Mortified it was really, it was it did veer onto very unpleasant, kept waiting for to be over. And you guys were yelling, and yeah. Very, very emotional curated. Right? Or not or no? Not that one. No different one that we were that we just played excerpts of. No, that one was a real all out and, and in some ways, I'm glad that that is part of our corpus. I don't want to repeat that kind of performance, but I'm glad it's out there because we genuinely we're, we're like yelling at each other, and it says something about our listeners that some people actually Email us that it was so uncomfortable. And some people say that they love it. There. No. By the way this makes me realize could take all your hundred and fifty episodes guy knows how many hours put him into an AI and maybe you guys superfluous. You could just have have data trunk and then to have of you. It's the world's worst black mirror. It is. That one, what's the name of it? Where. Where like we have enough data now, part of the question is, is the kind of data we've generated. Is it genuine enough that it's getting at our true selves? I think it is. That's the, I think. I think it might be. From my writing and I really do try to write in my voice, and I try to write as like who I am, but it still is different than like, I take great comfort in the fact that if I died tomorrow, my family can listen to these podcasts and get us and get a memory of like a legitimate memory. It's like a photo album of who I am if they ever want to do that. You know, like I do feel like this is this is just who I am like. I'm not putting on a pose here for better for worse. Given a range of things you guys talked about and the personal nature, some of them. Yeah, yeah. Those episodes are each one of you. And I don't think that this could have lasted if we were acting. So in some sense, when we go on on the radio, for instance, you are playing the role of the expert professor on something, and I've never felt like this goes back to just I'm having a discussion with handler. I really do feel like this is my true self. And if because just because I wouldn't have the fucking patients to act this long, I just would it would be miserable like, this is me. This really is me like if you meet me like, I will talk like this, you know. You know. I know both you off podcast. You are exactly as you seem for better or worse. You know people exactly what you're like. I met a listener in Michigan, and he's a very cool guy, and we just, I don't know. We had drinks and. And had some food and we were talking and then like probably two and a half hours. And at the end he was like, I gotta tell you, this is so surreal being it. It was like. The pie because I think it really was like, I was just talking to him the same way I talked today poll. Do you think that. That this is. Have your views changed about, say the value of doing something like this? Like now that you've been on a lot of podcasts. A lot of people wanna start podcast is this, is this a good use of the time as. A professor. So so awhile ago, Robert Wright sort of gave me and some other Yale professors Laurie Santos and Josh nob-, a student, dense, Jonathan Phillips, a sort of chance to interview whoever we wanted to on his site, and we did that a little while and then we, we've, we kind of ran out of steam and I realize now I was probably doing it wrong. I could imagine this being an enormous amount of fun and actually a very valuable use of time, but I wouldn't want I wanna have something like the two of you have. I would wanna have sort of thing with somebody else who would just kind of we just talk about stuff. Interviews can be great, but I think this is better. Yeah, temblor Nuys sometimes and I like I try to to to avoid the word interview because I think that it is even though we have guests on the show and often our guests are people we know and. We know that we can have genuine conversations with them and they feel less like interviews to me than they do just we brought on somebody to have a conversation because often we talk about something that may not actually be their work sir central to the work. And those are the most fun guests to me. And this is what you've always been right. Like that's the thing. Paul has always been not an interview even when we're talking about some piece. He wrote in the New Yorker Atlantic or whatever. It's like, you've always been. We're having a conversation and other guests haven't been like that including guests that we thought would be good for the podcast, but then all of a sudden it just becomes an interview. So I, I have to tell you a story based on my blogging has thing, which is that I had somebody on who somebody I liked a lot respect a lot, very famous and I can hour slot. So a head of time I make up some questions to get us going. So we have a conversation like what you're talking about, but the person I'm talking has been interviewed. Thousands of times. And so I would say, oh, so I have a thought. And then he would very succinctly and very clearly answer it and it'll be. And I moved to my question number and he would answer to NPR and then it was. It was like eight minutes in I asked all my questions and then I'm full of flop, sweat megs, -iety. So like I don't know. You got brothers and sisters. And it was terrible favorite color. And, and so, yeah, I like the fact is it's not an interview setup. I want to say really quickly. Part of Paul's has said, I think our best and perhaps most popular guests, but I learned a lot about teaching, but also about arguing from Pau in pulsed. It really was Paul's style of of talking and being sort of excited about ideas and not being afraid to disagree and challenge me including in my teaching style. I teed Paul for your intro course and maybe your causes sweet, but is there anybody that influenced your your style? Yeah, a lot of people, I guess three in particular, my undergraduate adviser, John McNamara got me into this business and in some way, I think this sort of style of work I do is influenced by him. Susan carries main adviser more than anybody influence how I deal with graduate students. Which is more one one on one. I keep a small show. She was abusive. Yeah. Exactly. I'm just passing on passing on the cycle of violence and pins. The cycle of violence. And and then definitely Steve pinker. A lot of my writing and my talks, my public presentation is actually very conscious attempt to do what he does. Well, thanks for coming on this. I couldn't imagine a more festive one hundred fiftieth episode as rambling as nasty Batori. Itself, congratulatory. We've been interacting with each other. That's true. Thanks for having me on this is I'm honored to be part of a hundred graduate. Thanks. Thanks. Man. Plan. And you. Anybody can have. Very. Look man just to say with wisit.