7 Episode results for "Phoenix mountain"
AT#647 - Travel to Phoenix, Arizona
"The bags back on the road. There and read it's go real good pass board. Hamma traveler pursued six hundred forty seven today. The amateur traveler talks about art, museums and western culture, hikes petroglyphs and Naro cactus. As we go to Phoenix, Arizona. The metre traveler, I'm your host, Chris Christensen. Let's talk about Phoenix. I'd like to welcome back to the show Cindy Carlson from exploration vacation dot net. Who has come to talk to us about Phoenix cine? Welcome to the show. I Chris thanks for having me or welcome back to the show said he was here about one hundred episodes ago. I was surprised it was that long ago talking about northern Vietnam. And if you haven't heard that episode I like that episode, obviously because otherwise she would be back. So Cindy, we're talking about a much more domestic destination this time in what's your connection with Phoenix? My now there's been down there about thirty years now. And so I've been going down there pre regularly since about nineteen ninety five bending sometimes just a few days and sometimes spending even a couple of weeks down there exploring the area. Excellent. So she is a snowbird in the language of the area. Yes. My parents are snowbirds I'd snowbird if I could convince my husband to spend more time down there but likes books. Gets a tad warm in the summer for me and Phoenix. And just so we know we usually don't talk about whether for a while. But one of the reasons a lot of people come down in the wintertime, lovely lovely weather summertime. They'll get one hundred days in a row that will go of one hundred degrees Fahrenheit. So that just baby something you think about we have a friend who moved to Phoenix because the summer's here in San Jose that only got two ninety were not hot enough for her. So if you like hot weather, that's definitely good time to go lot more people there in the winter. And there's a lot to do. Actually, I haven't been there in the summer, but there's a lot to do in the summer inside. And there's actually water in rivers and floats and things I have a lot of friends that live there year round. And they actually say summers aren't always that bad. Right. Well, it depends. Again, what you like. And I do know that the friends who go out hiking tend to do it early in the morning in the summertime or or later in the evening usually early in the morning when it's the coolest time of day, but what kind of itinerary do. Recommend for us for Phoenix. So I tried to put together, and I tend to worry that's really aimed at first time. Visitors to Phoenix it gives them an idea of what Phoenix is about where it came from what the landscapes like and what the people who've lived their past and present are like and it's geared. It's five days because five days seems to be to me a good amount of time to get a real feeling for Phoenix. It's still leaves you enough time that if you want to spend time golfing or laying by the pool or you wanna make a trip up to Grand Canyon, which I know you've covered on one a year. Previous shows you can add that on then it's a week's vacation and still do all the stuff that I'm recommending will you we won't took quite as much about site trips. But there are a number different things if you had north or south either down to Tucson, we've done it episode on that or up to flagstaff area up to Grand Canyon or even up to the north east corner of the state, we've got different shows about northern Phoenix. So we won't be talking about them now. But what should we do in Phoenix? Well, actually, let me back up a bit here. I should start with. Why should we go to Phoenix of all the places we should go to sell? I think Phoenix gets the bad rap as as a snowboard destination. Oh, it's just where the retirees go because warm it's hot in the summer. Why would you ever go to Phoenix? And Phoenix, particularly in the last fifteen years twenty years, maybe now has really become a arts and culture hub. It's got a a thriving lively downtown great art scene. It has spectacular scenery all around the city with the snoring desert there. It's become a real interesting place to go. There's something there. I think for everyone, and it's really a worthwhile destination. There's a lot to see in Phoenix that you probably won't see and other places. The only part of that that I would show is that that has happened over the last ten or fifteen years because I've been going there at longer than that. And I think it's getting better known for that over the last ten fifteen years, I think that's been there for. A while in terms of the arts and culture. I think part of it is as light rail's come in. It's maybe it's more that it's expanded places like downtown Mesa that used to be really dead are now little art tub's. Okay. And so maybe that's it because it's been building. It's I've always liked Phoenix. But I think it's really become something that a lot of people don't expect excellent. And we're should we start? So I'm gonna suggest that people start by learning about the Sonoran desert by actually going out to the desert botanical garden, which is in northeast. It's a beautiful place as botanical garden it, of course, has landscaped areas and non native plants, but it also has large areas of native plants. It's a great place to soak in the beauty of the desert and to learn about the desert, so that when you go hiking on your own, you know, that even those those Challah cactuses might look really friendly fuzzy that to get near them. So it gives you both that introduction to the desert as well as beautiful place to wander. You can easily spend a few hours or half day there. They have a fabulous cafes. What's a nice place to spend some time in the garden, and then wandered to the cafe will want to make sure that we're talking about the same place because the desert botanical garden that I know is not in north Phoenix. It's on almost in Scottsdale. So it would be east of Phoenix. It's right on the border of Scottsdale. And Phoenix you that's not north Phoenix east, east Phoenix. Okay. And that's another thing. I should mention that. I have geographic dyslexia when it comes to Unix. So keen on is because I miss a west when I really mean east it's over by Scottsdale, and it's beautiful. It's right at the foot of the mountains beautiful place to walk in wander. I happen to see it. The first time when there was a truly exhibit. So my experience there is quite different because there was all sorts of glass being shown at the same time. But what if a place especially for kids to recommend our kids love the butterfly exhibit, for instance, there as well as some of the other. And they've actually redone the gardens since you've been there since the league's of it. And there are still still Hulas and some other sculptures in the garden. They do special events visitors coming into Phoenix should check the schedule and see they sometimes do big fun parties out in the garden at night and different things can be hard to get tickets to those. But there are blast. If you can get them. Excellent. So because that's not necessarily a full day. If you want to do a little more that day, I would continue on towards the west to the Pueblo grandee museum, which it's a museum in an archaeological park, it's fairly small museum. But they do really nice job of talking about the hokum people who live in the Phoenix area more than thousand years ago. They actually were the original ones building canals in the salt. River valley canals bring all Phoenix's water in today. But that actually goes back to ancient culture that lived there more than a thousand years ago. It's a nice little museum the archaeological site itself, isn't terribly into. There's not a lot left. But the museum dozen nice job of introducing you to what this area was like in the people who live there a long time ago. The other alternative end out your first day would be if it's on a Thursday had over to Scottsdale and do evening art walk and have dinner down on the in the arts district in historic Scottsdale, which is a really fun place. And I'll talk about that a little more in the next day. We should say we haven't really even gone very far from the Phoenix harbor airport here for the first two stops does botanical gardens. The public grid museum are practically stone's throw from the airport. So we haven't ranged very far afield yet. This is all fairly easy to a stone. So for Phoenix anyway, which is a gigantic Norma's area. Geographically is a very large area. Geographically. That's right. I forget to actually put together two different options, depending on visitors interest level of interest in native cultures or cowboy culture, I've got two different options. One the one would. Be two more about the people who live in the southwest today. And that would be a trip to the heard museum in downtown Phoenix even closer to sky harbor airport. We haven't left really Phoenix at all for these. The today's the herd is both a cultural history and art museum about half the museum or more is devoted to exhibits on the peoples of the southwest with separate areas on each different culture, and both modern and historic pieces of art in basket tree in different daily aims of daily life. The other part of the museum includes an exhibit which for in my part of the country is something people don't know as much about as the Indian boarding school era. They've just redone the exhibit. I haven't seen the new one. But the old one was both fascinating and really heartbreaking. But really really interesting again mostly history. But combining modern perspectives and information as well. And presenting it in a way. It's very very acceptable like the exempts really geared for both adults and for children in the area. You're talking about here is an era where they want to pending on how you how you look at this. The one side would say they wanted to include the native Americans in American culture, and therefore they wanted to inculturated them. And the other side would say that they wanted them to lose their identity as native Americans and inculturated them. But it was definitely a very intentional move to bring them in to have the move away from their families to go to these boarding schools and two tournament white people would be the crude way of saying that. Yeah, it's a very complicated history. And it's a very painful history. And although it's mixed for some people that experience as much as it was it had some negative sides. It also brought good things to them others found it just devastating. And they try to deal with all that in a really meaningful, and I think respectful way at the herd. The herd has it's mostly native curator's in. So they do a really nice job at dealing with those complicated issues. The other thing the heard is is a arts museum contemporary or more historic pieces of art, usually all native arts. The most recent show featured Yupik masks from Alaska combined with works by Matisse because he had used some of these masses and Spiratou in his work, generally, though, the shows are focused on native arts native artists, those shows are always splendid really high high quality works. If you're at all interested in native art and the contemporary native art seeing the heard will have something spectacular. They have the finest collection. Definitely in the west and probably some of their collection is probably will to some of the pieces the collection at the national museum of the American Indian. They really do a nice job with their show. Depending on how long you heard you have a couple other options for the day. You are right downtown at the heard you're in an old historic neighborhood. You're just north of the Phoenix art museum. The phoenix. Art museum has a lovely collection. They are pretty much the standard big city museum. They have a lovely collection. But it's it's not Phoenix specific for the most part, the exception to that is their photo exhibit draws from the Zona state university collection. Unusually has some really interesting things in it. And they do spectacular spectacular special exhibits. So if you're an art person, you might just want to walk down the street and spend the rest of the day at Pam. I did forget to mention that at the heard have lunch before you leave the herd. They have a fabulous cafeteria than head onto whatever else. The Pam would be one of them the Phoenix art museum the option if you kind of had enough art for the day, or what little smaller museum is to get in. A car and head over to the smaller museum with the a state capitals the state capitalism. It's the old capitol building. They've preserved a few rooms in the building. But they have some really interesting exhibits in there. It's not very big. But they have a exhibit on the Zona the worship which was sunk in Pearl Harbor and some memorabilia from some of the survivors as well as this was news to me that all these ships have find China and silver and fancy settings like you get some Victorian dinner party, and they have all that on display there as well. They also have some very interesting displays on the beginnings of AirAsia as a state in the establishment of the of the state, including the fact that Arizona kind of played a dirty trick to get into the US as a state. They were required to change something in their provision for how they will how the handled their judges and didn't like with the federal government wanted them to. Do. So they went ahead and did it to become a state. And then as soon as they were state, they went and undid it and did it the way they want it to. Whole section on it. It's really quite interesting. So those are my day to option number one my action number two is to go back up. If you haven't been discussed to go to Scottsdale and do western spirit. I don't know. Have you been to western spirit in Scottsdale? Chris I do not know where you speak of with westerns. Still, but this is relatively new museum. It's maybe five years old at the most trying to capture the full extent of the the life and population changes in the west, and it has several components that it's a fine art museum more than a history museum. Although it does have historic pieces. One piece of the museum is a cowboy collection or western collection that has things like Spurs and saddles and all the things you'd expect in like a cowboy museum or an old west museum except most of the pieces were collected because of their artistic value more so than as artifacts of the old west that's a fun place for kids. But it's it's kind of cool for everybody because they have all this stuff. And you start looking at it. And you're like, wow, I never knew Spurs could be that interesting. But they can be part of museums fine. Art, mostly they've been expanding what they've been showing. They usually always have a big section by a prominent bronze artist who does away art in features native Americans, although he's not native American himself. They've added now a western movie poster collection that they acquired so there's usually some sort of western movie themed exhibit. They've also added a collection of Hopi classic historic and contemporary, but mostly historic Hopi pottery that they always have some of undisposed, and then they have some other traveling exhibits they've had western cartoons. They've had the towel Spain tres different things, but very much art based most of the first floor is very much art based except for the movie posters in the western cowboy things the second floor has to Perm semi permanent exhibits one of which saved Alaska. It's kind of. Exhausting. It's a fine. It's interesting. He's laughing. It's a fine art exhibit. That tells the story of the settlement of the west and meeting of the natives and the Anglos as they started settling the west, it's a big Zabit. And it's interesting, but more interesting is the other half, which has mostly has some fine art, but it mostly has more what we would consider artifacts and objects. So it has some artifacts and things from the Lewis and Clark exhibition. It has collection of spectacular chief's blankets. It has a bunch of Curtis. And they've changed this since I was there. The first time of Curtis original Curtis images of native Americans and showing all the different printing presses he used which was something. I had never seen the goal tones in some of that before. And so that was really interesting. It's got a fabulous mix of items and again, very large exhibit. So this is a museum that if you wanna see everything it will take most of the day to take a break here. And here from sponsor with all the recent news of online security breaches is hard not to worry about where your data goes making it online purchase or simply accessing your Email could put your private information at risk. I hope he knew the danger of connecting to the WI fi in the airport or in a local coffee shop. But did you just see AT and T has been selling your data and other companies have been as well your browser history? So that they can target you. 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I would say of the places that I have been in the area is the most cowboy town that the downtown Scottsdale has more cowboy art exhibits in stores and things like that and has more of that western heritage. I think they call themselves the most western town in the west. And it's a love downtown scout till it's an already town with this western heritage. And my grandfather actually was a cowboy so I have a fondness for the. Western heritage. We have his Spurs. He was on the last round up in Colorado when he was sixteen he busted broncs, adding. So I have some connection to this. Although I myself am not a couple I would say to if you're bringing kids along in being a western museum Alday seems like that might be the seventh layer of hell for you. You might. Instead if you wanna get in touch with the western heritage take them up to rawhide, which is a wonderfully touristy cheesy. Western recreation town in northern Scottsdale that is more of a kid friendly way to look at some of the western culture. And glad you added that I have not been to rawhide. I was looking at that the other day going I have to get up there. I took my kids there as as a kid. We join it. I mean, it's touristy it's cheesy. But it's great western spirit has some sections for kids and the western area part of it is Scott some good stuff. But both the heard and western spirit. Are pretty adult oriented museums. And glad you mentioned the old town Scottsdale because that would be my other recommendation as once you finish western spirit is actually right along that area where all the galleries and auction houses studios and things are and they've got that fixed up as a mall. You can go down you can walk into some window shopping. You can go in the galleries. There's a whole range of art. There's the western art. But now there's a lot non western themes done by western artists contemporary artists than there was a few even a few years ago. There's a lot of good restaurants there. No problem finding someplace to eat. Did you have one you would recommend? I was looking to see if there were any that I could recommend, but none are occurring to me. Cafe forte. Okay. Mr. right down on that end in. It's a lovely lovely spot. They do very beautiful dinners and nice lunches there. We've eaten there a couple times. It's not a budget place, but it's not super expensive either. And also for art lovers if you really into art and want something different. If you feeling a little overwhelmed by native and western art, the Scottsdale contemporary art, gallery is down at the end of the mall in that is completely different small small small museum only usually four maybe five exhibits on installations more often, but really interesting edgy stuff. So if you want a little change of pace, that's a good place to walk down to see what's happening. And as I mentioned Thursdays are there art night. Most of the year, they have galleries are open late. The museums. They're open late things are free. Most of the things are free, and you can walk around. And it's kind of an event it's a lot of fun to do something like that. Where to next day three. I think it's time to get out in the Sonoran desert a little farther. I'd recommend taking a hike. Phoenix is a great city for hiking or biking more just getting out in nature, you can hike right in the city of Phoenix. But as you go towards the edges of Phoenix, you have the mountain parks, which are spectacular. There's some some parks that we've that we've really really liked because they have nice mix of trails and fabulous scenery include the mountain parks right in town. And also thinking of the Phoenix mountains, preserve I'm thinking of all of those north so user mountain park Dowell park farther out is lost further out. Okay. The problem with the parks like doing the Camelback hike is that you're there with ten thousand other people so the Camelback so there are places to hike inside the city I've been in Phoenix mountain preserve which is an easy hike. And then there's. Camelback mountain, which is between Phoenix and Scottsdale, which is a much more strenuous hike, but a very popular hike, especially to go up there for sunrise is a very popular thing to do. But yeah, it is more popular while you can get around Phoenix proper Phoenix in Mesa Tempa without a car because of the light rail, you cannot get to Scottsdale on the light rail, but you can get to the others. Generally Phoenix is so much easier with a car, and if you have a car like I say north cave creek has that's a beautiful park. It's not too far out of the city. If you're staying up in Scottsdale, I generally stay on the east end of the city. I generally stay way out in Mesa the eastern end may so or in Apache junction and from their lost Dutchman state park is just stunningly beautiful Usery mountain state usury mountain recreation area, there's a number of trails out there that are tackler take you right up into the edge of the superstition mountains. So you have the desert and you have the mountains and went flowers are in bloom. It's just it's a gorgeous air. Area. Do you have a particular trail you recommend the to remember by name? Well, this chew suggestions one is just about any of the lower trails in Las Dutchman are fabulous beautiful. And then there's a trail if you wanna go all the way out to gold canyon, which is at that far edged the mountains at the Phoenix area. There's a trail out there called the hieroglyphics trail, which has it's a not too difficult though. I haven't been out there in a few years, but it's still open. It's not too difficult trail that leads out to a basin where there's sometimes waterfall. There's always usually a pool, and then there's petroglyphs on all the cliffside some of them you walk right past the first time, I was out there. We were looking for the petroglyphs in. We were looking so hard for them thinking they'd be hard to find that we actually walked by them. I turned around at some point and looked at my girlfriend in the petroglyphs like over her shoulder right there like where you could touch them. So that's. Tackler hike in. It's not a terribly hard hike. Please don't damage the petroglyphs and don't touch them while you're out there 'cause you could date that damages the the artwork, but that's a spectacular hike on that end like say, we've gone out cave creek in the north has really some wonderful, easy, easy hikes. Kemba Wimpy hiker these days. So. But I would spend the day just take your time and do one of the parks and enjoy the desert again if you're out there in the spring, the flowers in the desert are spectacular just spectacular. So that's my day. Three is Spencer timeout in for hiking around or in the mountain forests are in the desert area hiking around day four I'm going to suggest something that has nothing to do with Phoenix. Except that it's the only place you'll find this. And that is the musical instrument museum. Good. I was gonna get there. If you didn't. All right. And it's not the only place you'll find it. But we'll talk about the. Hoping to see the other one the spring. So the musical instrument museum, ignore the name. It's a music museum. There are instruments in the museum. So that is not an accurate. Isn't the totality of the museum? It's really about music and the people who make music as well as the instruments it's experiential in that you put on a set of headphones as you walk through the museum, and as you look at an exhibit. If you turn to watch a classic performance on video you'll hear all the sound over your headphones. If you go up and look at Bali's instruments as you look at the gamma Lon, you'll start to hear the Gammel on play in your headphones. If you're watching classic rock somewhere again, you'll hear the sometimes nation, but usually it's just the music. It's a fascinating easy to go through in the shows. They have their special exhibits include things like women's Rackers, costumes, or we went to one that was it was an art exhibit. I don't remember what they called it. But it was like dragons vines, and it was all the inlay guitars and musical instruments from around the world from the US. It was just an incredibly beautiful show. You've been there. Chris. Wouldn't you say that there's something there for absolutely everybody? I have not been there. My wife has been there to this one. I have been to the one that inspired it in Brussels. But I have not been to this one yet. Oh, will you need to get there? It's unbelievably fun. And it takes leave a lot of time. We left about three hours to do the museum. We took my mother there, and we figured she'd be bored in three hours, and she wasn't board, and we weren't bored in the museum was closing. And so we were very disappointed that we had left more time. That's the same thing. I heard from oh if it was a trip where I drove back from Phoenix, San Jose, California, which is home for me and my wife, flew back. So she had a little more time that to to go and explore in what with reservoirs thoroughly enjoyed it. Yeah. It is a very good reputation. But haven't personally been there. I'm gonna check out the one in Brussels spring. I hope so I can compare the two, but I was very very impressed and for lovers of more world music or more. Interesting things, you don't usually see in concerts. They have a beautiful beautiful studio concert space. They're and they do full range of form Ince's through the winter at least. And so if you can't into town, you can check out and see there might be something really unusual there that you are unlikely to hear somewhere else than it's a beautiful space to hear music in. Excellent. Well, you're out in kind of out in that end of of Scottsdale. I think it is it's way north in Scottsdale. So maybe it is cut netra kind of Scottsdale Phoenix somewhere over there. The trip me up because most things just say Phoenix in the address. And so you're not really sure there is a loop of highways that kind of to me defines the main part of town. And e this is one a one on the north and ten on the south, and this is the northeast corner of that loop. It's out ways compared to the other places we've talked about while you're there. It's further west steel for something again, a little different. But now only in probably Phoenix there's a place called the deer valley petroglyphs do valley petroglyphs, preserve. There are petroglyphs had mentioned on the hieroglyphics trail. There's actually petroglyphs you can see on the south mountain hike, but deer valley has a whole hillside a boulders with hundreds and hundreds of petroglyphs, they have a interpretive center that talks about the petroglyphs attacks about the area and settlement in the area. It's a really pleasant little site. And if you're like me, really bad at spotting petroglyphs, these are even if you can't find them. I don't know how you couldn't there right in front of you. But they have volunteers out there to help you see the petroglyphs will show you where they are in point them out. So if you wanna see petroglyphs this it's handicapped accessible, it's an easy place to see a little bit more about the history of the area and see these ancient petroglyphs, it's in some really interesting spot. And it's a good extra spot. Run to if you're out at the musical instrument museum because it's kind of in that corner of more inner urban area. So for my last day. I am proposing that you leave that civilized Phoenix area behind and head out into the superstition mountains superstitions are on the east. They kind of the east border of the Phoenix area. Beautiful rugged mountains. They don't look like there is rugged as they actually are. There's a roadway into the superstitions a historic roadway called the Apache trail. It's if you go out to Lou lost Dutchman and some of the mountain parks out that direction you go right on the patchy trailer up to it for a while on the Apache trail, the first half of the trail is a paved road. It's very scenic. But it's in pretty good condition. It's an easy drive. Anyone can drive it. A good half day trip would be to take the trail out to canyon lake and take a cruise on the steamboat Dolly, which will take you down into. Along canyon lake into its back early backwaters, but the little offshoots canyon lake is a reservoir. It's Switzer flooded. Canyon has steep cliffs, lots of desert scenery, you might even see some to Bighorn sheep some wildlife while you're out is just a really pleasant little cruise either before after the Dalai, you should continue down the road to tortilla flat. Which is a either restored revived ghost town or a rebuilt completely rebuilt. Ghost town, the original tortilla, flat mostly burned down many many many years ago, they have a little restaurant out there. There's a teensy tiny museum. The restaurant is actually fairly good. It's really good. But it's very western themed, you know, saddles for barstools, and that sort of thing it's an interesting quirky place with decent food makes a really good stop for either before or after your cruise when you go there. It's about a half day trip to go out do the cruise. Have a meal, it tortilla flats and dry back for the more adventurous, the fun part of the road starts after tortilla flat. Skip the cruise unless you want a really long day, but you could do both once you pass tortilla flat. You you get to a hill. When you go down the hill the road turns dirt, it's basically the same unpaved road. It was in nineteen thirty six when it was last used as a the main highway between Apache junction, we'll between Phoenix and Payson and you are stepping back in time. It's one lane in some places. If you make it through fish creek through the steep descent than the twist the blind, the one lane blind curbs and that area than the rest of the road is pretty drivable. Always check the weather before you go to make sure the road isn't in terrible shape or washed out from Raines was recently graded the last time we were out there. There are some guardrails there are a lot of guardrails because it's a historic road. The apparently can't do much to widen it or improve. It, but that's part of the adventure. It's a stunning drive. It's a dusty drive. There are some some places to stop where you can admire. The senior admire the wealth lowers there's actually nother lake further down Apache lake. There's a little resort marina down there. When you get to the end of the road. There's a big dam area which creates another lake Roosevelt lake which is a big recreation area. And once you get all the way to the end in. It's only about twenty five miles on the unpaved portion, but plan at least an hour or more to drive that part. You cannot drive it over about thirty miles an hour, most of it. And some of it is a lot slower than that. You don't need a high clearance vehicle most of the time, it's not a bad idea. But you can drive it most of the time in a sedan without any problem. But for the adventurous drivers, it's a gorgeous drive when you get to the end, you can stop and take a break at Roosevelt lake, and then you either can go back the way you came or. There's a state highway that runs through the it's the tunnel. National forests, it's a lovely area. Partly desert, partly forested and takes you back down south to down in globe and coming across the globe and superior. There's another botanical garden down there that spectacular. If you want to do some more flowers if you're there and flower season can tell my thing is flour season. So flower season would be early spring starting in varies by year. But usually starting late February, Pat, the poppies sometimes mid February. But March is really marching into early April is usually when the flowers and this year offensive your listeners are thinking about going. This should be a great year for flowers. They've had a lot of rain this winter should be really really beautiful through most of it's already the starting to bloom even through all March should be really really nice the weather spoonful March is the high season, and we'll get into that in a little bit. Because there's a reason why it's the high season if the high part of the high season actually the winter is the high season go ahead. You're you're talking about flowers though, that Dr gives you some spectacular flowers the hallway when you come down in when you get down. It's Boyce Thompson arboretum down in superior, which is again at far far southeastern edge of the the Phoenix metro area. It's really I would. Didn't consider it part of the Phoenix metro area. But technically it actually is. It says spectacular drive in that garden is spectacular to Seoul. That's nice. It'd be a full day at a someone wants to do something. Like that gets you out of town and let get you out into the desert, which is sort of nice. If you're in spending all of your time right in the Phoenix area. That's only five days. There's other things you could do I did not mention tally Essen, which is Frank. Lloyd, Wright's grew dimension that Yuka. Winter residents. It's a very interesting place to tour. I think it's an interesting place to tour if you're an architecture geek, which I happen to be I not sure that I would recommend it for anybody. Who's not a real fan of architecture? But if you are a, yeah, this is a very major site. In fact, it is on the list of possible UNESCO world heritage site as a multi site portion about Frank Lloyd Wright, oh, I didn't realize that. Yeah. No. I would agree that you need to be an architecture fan and partly because it's quite expensive to tour. It's not a budget tour, and you have to buy to to do it for architecture fans in general Phoenix is a great city 'cause developed so much in the forties, and particularly the fifties and sixties, so it's unbidden century modern stuff everywhere, they do a mid century modern week in March. There's just lots and lots of interesting architecture from that period as well as some really interesting modern the lot of the civic buildings that were built. Twenty thirty years ago or more recently are just really spectacular both in Phoenix. And in Scottsdale in particular, the western spirit in Scottsdale is an architecture. Very interesting building with a lot of sustainability features interesting. Interesting features, there's a Pam the Phoenix. Art museum is a real interesting building. There's a lot of really interesting buildings. But for Frank Lloyd Wright fans, this is one of the big ones. The other thing. I didn't mention is for fans of either western art in general, Kobe, art or native American art is a museum down in Chandler called the Basha collection. And it was a private collection of Eddie Basha who runs the who. At one point ran the Basha grocery stores, and it's not curated the same way the say the heard or western spirit is but for someone who's interested in that sort of art, it's an amazing collection. He'll have he has in some cases, hundreds of pieces by the same artists. You can see like there. Development and style through time. It's a large collection in unlike most things in Phoenix for most museums. It's totally free only when weekdays, but it's an interesting thing. Most people don't know about the last one I'd add that people should maybe think about is the superstition mountain museum, which is a little more informal than most of the other museums. I've mentioned it's at the base of the superstitions where the Apache trail starts they have some really cool mining memorabilia pieces while not huge equipment. They have some historic buildings and some historic looking building. So they've set up kind of like an old mining town. And it's very atmospheric in the location stunning some beautiful beautiful location. The other thing that we haven't talked about is why March is so busy in Phoenix. And it's going to be one of the more expensive times to go and that's spring training. If you were a baseball fan, the number one reason that I have been Phoenix over the last twenty years or so is to go down for spring training. Half of the American baseball teams. Well, half of the American US and Canadian will end up in Phoenix and the other half in Florida, and you could go down and see half the teams play in general, and how cheap it is depends on where you go. If you go to Scottsdale stadium where the giants play you'll pay as much as you will for a game that you see in San Francisco, but on the other hand, if you go out to Glendale or Peoria to one of the other stadiums where some of the mid western teams are playing you can sometimes see a game for really cheap, you know, a game and a hotdog and can be quite a fun experience to go and see a number of the different teams all in a short period of time. Which is why it is. So popular will be a little more expensive to go that time of year. But that is a big draw in Phoenix in spring training starts in February and then finished March. Yeah. And. Really it's March. That's the the big thing. Because that's when they start playing more games the pitchers catchers reported mid-february. So that is something that we have been down for many times. And is is good fun. But again, a little more expensive you get friends to stay with. That's a great time to go but lights are going to be a little more hotels going to be a little more hotels early challenge and rental cars. I don't know if you guys fly drive, but I have been there in March where there has not been a rental car available in Phoenix. Believe that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it seems as ING, but it's it's true because of the spring training and all there is a lot of marches probably Phoenix's month for the best weather of the entire year. It is a great time to usually I have also been there during hailstorms in March. So usually could weather then but not always and for hikers the snakes aren't out yet. Okay. Good snow. It's still too cold. It's warm enough for us. But not for the snakes, generally. Okay. That is always something to know. Couple of other things for kids. There's a children's museum I have not been there. So I cannot recommend it necessarily. But there is a zoo that our kids enjoyed when they were younger in Phoenix. That was quite fun. Some other things for kids to. But again, I don't trouble with kids either. So it's harder. But the zoo is the zoo is very nice. Yeah. US news World Report that put that in their fourth on the list, even above the Phoenix art museum, and some of the other places we've talked about they put it above the heard museum, which I know is fighting words for you. But. It's a zoo. It's a good sue though, I would recommend that more of the shoulder season. Or the winter in the summer that's going to be pretty warm. Yeah. I mean, that's generally true anything outdoors. You wanna to do even the end may? But for sure June through even I've been in there in late September. And it's still Ben really in the nineties hundred juries so early mornings or evenings. A really when you wanna be out. You wanna do stuff that's inside an air conditioned, every places are conditioned in Phoenix. It is a drier heat than you would find in the midwest east coast or the south like an oven. But it gets quite warm. So and there's you know, spas, golf courses and all sorts of other things that people go down to Phoenix for that. I'll let you look on your own anything else. We wanna tell people before we get to some of our wrap up questions, Cindy mentioned is that for looking for lodging in Phoenix that there's really some key places. If you wanted urban experience to stay downtown Phoenix downtown Scottsdale, or in one if for more laidback urban experience in one of the historic districts and Phoenix they actually have a lot of historic districts, and there's a Fairmont of Airbnb in them luxuries ORT s- up north in Scottsdale or the desert escapes out on the eastern edge of the metro area. You can find some spectacular places out there. Great views, and you can hike right out your door, and I should say that if you're looking at a map of Phoenix almost everything we covered other than some of the parks that we went out and hiked in were in the eastern part of that circle that I drew. Around Phoenix with highway one and highway ten almost everything we did was to the east of highway seventeen which runs north and south sort of in the center of Phoenix. We didn't talk about places like Sun City where a lot of the retirees are and some of that area. That's a little less. Interesting to me, unless you're really fond of astroturf lawns and things like that. We also didn't talk about Mesa and Tempe, which you say is where you stay. Is there anything we want to say about those areas? Why did you stay in the farther eastern part of Mesa or north on the mountains? But downtown Mesa is really starting to have a rebirth in his becoming an interesting arts area. They've done a lot of landscaping they've put in a beautiful art center. They have some historic buildings. They lost a lot of them. But they have some there's a historic neighborhood. So it's it's becoming a really attractive place to stay and are more little more urban stay, but not being in Phoenix. It's let cheaper than downtown Phoenix Scottsdale Tempe. I have not stayed in Tempe. But we've gone down there on the light rail we've stopped there few times to eat and check it out. And that is of course, where here's ONA state university is located that's probably the liveliest place in the Phoenix metro area right now, there's all sorts of bars and restaurants, and while lot of it's aimed at college students. Not all of it is. And it's become a real interesting urban placed the kind of hang out and eat do things and be out. Outside and they've got some great parks. And so again, that's more urban areas, especially for younger people. There's a lot more nightlife. It's I have been in restaurants in Phoenix and Mesa recently that eight thirty you're eating dinner in their starting to put the tables on the chairs on the tables and close up for the night. So. Do you wanna be a little later, Scottsdale or Tempe is probably your best place to go and look for a little bit of nightlife? Excellent. All right. You're standing in the prettiest spot in Phoenix where he's standing in. What are you looking at this is cheating? But I think the prettiest place in Phoenix any place where I can see Sura cactus silhouetted against the setting sun. Just my favorite thing. Can you a lot of places that is a lot of places? Can you think of one place in particular? I'm very partial to lost Dutch mistake part because you can see the swirl mountains on one side swore months, the superstition mountains on one side, and you can see Phoenix off in the distance. And you can have the best of everything. Excellent. One thing that makes you laugh and say only in Phoenix. It's the phones it's getting better. There are water features everywhere in Phoenix, just everywhere. And they recycle all the water. I understand that. It's reused water. And they reuse it for five times even before it gets in the fountains. But. It still seems just crazy to see all these cactuses growing alongside these beautiful ponds around the greenfields, and golf courses and lawns. It's just. It's crazy. Excellent. And if you had to summarize Phoenix in three words, what three words would use vibrant, artsy and Soweto. Excellent. Well, we did we did talking about the cactus is so much the one thing that may surprise you. If you're not from the area is how old these cactuses are because I think a sore cactus won't even get an arm a limit till it's like a hundred years old if I recall correctly. So if you see something up there that's got two three four arms as a cactus. It is hundreds of years old so beat, you know, be careful with them be gentle with them. But they are very interesting adapt Haitians of plants to grow in the area. They're only found in the Sonoran desert. So they're only found in the central southern Arizona into Mexico and in in Phoenix, UC them planted on the roadsides all over the place and just everywhere, but they're cool. They're so cool. If we wanted to send people to the best post on Phoenix on at exploration vacation dot net. What post would we send them to? I have a separate landing. Page for exploring Phoenix in the valley of the sun that has just some summaries, and that has links to a few other stories and things a lot of the places of talked about I haven't actually written about because it's I'm down there so often I don't get things written up. Our guest again, it's been Cindy Carlson from exploration vacation dot net. Sydney. Thanks so much for coming on amateur traveler and sharing with us your lover, Phoenix. Thanks, Chris is really fun. It's always fun to talk to you. Couple of new things on the amateur traveler blog one is I finally got around to writing up some of the amateur travel trips in blog format. So if you're interested in reading about Morocco Cambodia or India, you can check those out at the top page of amateur traveler, also we just got back from Portland, and there's a couple articles about things to do in Portland in winter and best Portland food trucks and carts. So check those out amateur traveler dot com. If you're looking for California content on the amateur traveler, you're gonna have to go instead to California travel media dot com, all that content. Got moved to a new California website that I'm going to be putting some work into. I heard from Kyle this weekend. Kyle said I just wanted to send you a quick note of appreciation. I came across the amateur traveler podcast years ago via your tech in travel minute features on Tom merits daily, tech news show podcast. I've been a regular listener ever since. Last fall, my wife, and I moved from Pennsylvania to Brussels for an ex Pat assignment, I've been combing through the amateur traveler archives since then and binging the European episodes to help decide where we should travel on our new home continent, you've created such an invaluable resource with rich catalogue of travel experience. Please do keep up the good work regards Kyle and thanks so much. It was great to get your Email. And also people don't know what he's talking about four nail over two years. I've been doing once a week just a quick tech in travel tip for the daily tech news show, which is my daily tech new show of choice. I'm regular listener of that show as well with that. We'll bring an end to this episode of amateur traveller if you have any questions Senate Email to hosted amateur traveler dot com or better yet. Leave a comment on this episode at amateur traveler dot com, and thanks so much for listening. See? Jam building.
AT#647 - Travel to Phoenix, Arizona
"The. The bag on a roll. Anna read it's go in real good pass board. Hammet traveler pursuit six hundred forty seven today. BMI traveler talks about art, museums and western culture, hikes petroglyphs and Sua cactus. As we go to Phoenix, Arizona. Walk. The amateur traveler your host, Chris Christensen. Let's talk about Phoenix. I'd like to welcome back to the show Cindy Carlson from exploration vacation dot net. Who has come to talk to us about Phoenix cine? Welcome to the show. I Chris thanks for having me or welcome back to the show said he was here about one hundred episodes ago. I was surprised it was that long ago talking about northern Vietnam. And if you haven't heard that episode I like that episode, obviously because otherwise she would be back. So Cindy, we're talking about a much more domestic destination this time in what's your connection with Phoenix? My now there's been down there about thirty years now. And so I've been going down there pretty regularly since about nineteen ninety five bending sometimes just a few days and sometimes spending even a couple of weeks down there exploring the area. Excellent. So she is a snowbird in the language of the area. Yes. My parents are snowbirds I'd snowbird if I could convince my husband to spend more time down there, but likes us books. Gets tad warm in the summer for me and Phoenix. And just so we know we usually don't talk about whether for a while. But one of the reasons lot of people come down in the wintertime, lovely lovely weather summertime. They'll get one hundred days in a row that will go of one hundred degrees Fahrenheit. So that just maybe something you think about we have a friend who moved to Phoenix because the summer's here in San Jose that only got two ninety were not hot enough for her. So if you like hot weather, that's definitely a good time to go lot more people there in the winter. And there's a lot to do. Actually, I haven't been there in the summer, but there's a lot to do in the summer inside. And there's actually water in rivers in floats and things I have a lot of friends that live there year round. And they actually say summers aren't always that bad. Right. Well, it depends. Again, what you like. And I do know that the friends who go out hiking tend to do it early in the morning in the summertime or or later in the evening usually early in the morning when it's the coolest time of day. But what kind of itenerary do? Recommend for us for Phoenix. So I tried to put together, and I worry that's really aimed at first time. Visitors to Phoenix it gives them an idea of what Phoenix is about where it came from what the landscapes like and what the people who've lived their past and present are like and it's geared. It's five days because five days seems to be to me a good amount of time to get a real feeling for Phoenix. Still leaves you enough time that if you want to spend time golfing or laying by the pool or you want to make a trip up to Grand Canyon, which I know you've covered on one a year previous shows, you can add that on and then it's a week's vacation and still do all the stuff that I'm recommending will you we won't talk quite as much about side trips. But there are a number different things if you head north or south either down to Tucson, we've done it episode on that or up to flagstaff area up to Grand Canyon or even to the north east corner of the state, we've got different shows about northern Phoenix. So we won't be talking about them now. But what should we do in Phoenix? Well, actually, let me back up a bit here. I should start with. Why should we go to Phoenix of all the places we should go to sell? I think Phoenix gets the bad rap as as a snowboard destination. Oh, it's just where the retirees because warm it's hot in the summer. Why would you ever go to Phoenix? And Phoenix, particularly in the last fifteen years twenty years, maybe now as really become a arts and culture hub. It's got a a thriving lively downtown great art scene. It has spectacular scenery all around the city with the Sonoran desert there. It's become a real interesting place to go. There's something there. I think for everyone, and it's really a worthwhile destination. There's a lot to see in Phoenix that you probably won't see and other places. The only part of that that I would show is that that has happened over the last ten or fifteen years because I've been going there at longer than that. And I think it's getting better known for that over the last ten fifteen years, I think that's been there for. In terms of the arts and culture. I think part of it is as light rail's come in. It's maybe it's more that expanded places like downtown Mesa that used to be really dead are now little art. Okay. And so maybe that's it because it's been building. It's I've always liked Phoenix. But I think it's really become something that a lot of people don't expect excellent. And we're should we start? So I'm going to suggest that people start by learning about the Sonoran desert by actually going out to the desert botanical garden, which is in northeast. It's a beautiful place as mechanical garden it, of course, has landscaped areas and non native plants, but it also has large areas of native plants. It's a great place to soak in the beauty of the desert and to learn about the desert, so that when you go hiking on your own, you know, that even those those Challah cactuses might look really friendly in fuzzy that to get near them. So it gives you both that introduction to the desert as well as beautiful place to wander. You can easily spend a few hours or half day there. They have a fabulous cafe. So it's a nice place to spend some time in the garden. And then wander to the cafe will want to make sure that we're talking about the same place because the desert botanical garden that I know is not in north Phoenix. It's on almost in Scottsdale. So it would be east of Phoenix. It's right on the border of Scottsdale and Phoenix that's not north Phoenix east, east Phoenix. Okay. And that's another thing. I should mention that. I have geographic dyslexia when it comes to Unix. So keen is because I miss a west when I really mean east it's over by Scottsdale, and it's beautiful. It's right at the foot of the mountains beautiful place to walk in wander. I happen to see it. The first time when there was a truly exhibit. So my experience there is quite different because there was all sorts of glass being shown at the same time. But what if place especially for kids to recommend our kids love the butterfly exhibit, for instance, there as well as some of the other. And they've actually redone the gardens since you've been there since the CIA Julia exhibit, and there are still still chew Hulas and some other sculptures in the garden. They do special events visitors coming into Phoenix should check the schedule and see they sometimes do big fun parties out in the garden at night and different things can be hard to get tickets to those. But there blast if you can get them. Excellent. So because that's not necessarily a full day. If you want to do a little more that day, I would continue on towards the west to the grandee museum, which it's a museum in an archaeological park, it's fairly small museum. But they do have really nice job of talking about the hokum people who live in the Phoenix area more than thousand years ago. They actually were the original ones building canals in the salt. River valley canals bring all Phoenix's water in today. But that actually goes back to ancient culture that lived there more than a thousand years ago. It's a nice little museum the archaeological site itself, isn't terribly into. Interesting. There's not a lot left, but the museum dozen nice job of introducing you to what this area was like in the people who live there a long time ago. The other alternative end out your first day would be if it's on a Thursday head over to Scottsdale and do evening art walk and have dinner down on the in the arts district in historic Scottsdale, which is a really fun place. And I'll talk about that a little more and went in the next day. We should say we haven't really even gone very far from the Phoenix harbor airport here for the first who stops does botanical gardens. The public grid museum are practically stone's throw from the airport. So we haven't ranged very far afield yet. This is all fairly easy to stone. So for Phoenix anyway, which is a gigantic Norma situ area. Geographically is a very large area geographically that's right for day to actually put together to different options, depending on visitors inter level of interest in native cultures or cowboy culture. I've got two different options won the won would. Be two and more about the people who live in the southwest today. And that would be a trip to the heard museum in downtown Phoenix even closer sky harbor airport. We haven't left really Phoenix at all for these. The today's the herd is both a cultural history and art museum about half the museum or more is devoted to exhibits on the peoples of the southwest with separate areas on each different culture, and both modern and historic pieces of art in basket tree in different daily aims daily life. The other part of the museum includes an exhibit which for in my part of the country is something people don't know as much about as the Indian boarding school era. They've just redone the exhibit. I haven't seen the new one. But the old one was both fascinating and really heartbreaking. But really really interesting again mostly history. But combining modern perspectives and information as well. And presenting it in a way. That's very very acceptable like the exempts really geared for both adults and for children in the area. You're talking about here is an era where they want to pending on how you how you look at this. They're the one side would say they wanted to include the native Americans in American culture, and therefore they wanted to inculturated them. And the other side would say that they wanted them to lose their identity as native Americans and inculturated them. But it was definitely at a very intentional move to bring them in to have the move away from their families to go to these boarding schools and two tournament white people would be the crude way of saying that. Yeah, it's very complicated history, and it's very painful history. And although it's mixed for some people that experience as much as it was it had some negative sides. Also, brought good things to them others found it just devastating. And they try to deal with all that in a really meaningful, and I think respectful way at the herd. The herd has it's mostly native curator's in. So they do a really nice job at dealing with those complicated issues. The other thing the heard is is a arts museum contemporary or more historic pieces of art, usually all native arts. The most recent show featured Yupik masks from Alaska combined with works by Matisse because he had used some of these masses inspiration in his work. Generally, though, the shows are focused on native arts native artists, the shows are always splendid really high high quality works. If you're at all interested in native art and the contemporary native art seeing the heard will have something spectacular. They have the finest collection. Definitely in the west and probably some of their collection is probably equal to some of the pieces the collection at the national museum of the American Indian. They really do a nice job with their show. Does depending how long you heard you have a couple other options for the day. You are right downtown at the heard you're in an old historic neighborhood. You're just north of the Phoenix art museum. The phoenix. Art museum has a lovely collection. They are pretty much the standard big city museum. They have a lovely collection. But it's it's not Phoenix specific for the most part, the exception to that is their photo exhibit draws from the Zona state university collection, and usually has some really interesting things in it. And they do spectacular spectacular special exhibits. So if you're an art person, you might just want to walk down the street and spend the rest of the day at Pam. I did forget to mention that at the heard have lunch before you leave the herd. They have a fabulous cafeteria then head onto whatever else. The Pam would be one of them the Phoenix art museum the other action. If you kind of had enough art for the day, or what a little smaller museum is to get in. Your car and head over to the smaller museum at the state capitals. The state capitalism. It's the old capitol building. They've preserved a few rooms in the building. But they have some really interesting exhibits in there. It's not very big. But they have a exhibit on the Zona the worship which was sunk in Pearl Harbor and some memorabilia from some of the survivors as well as this was news to me that all these ships have find China and silver and fancy settings like you get some Victorian dinner party, and they have all that unto splayed there as well. They also have some very interesting displays on the beginnings of AirAsia as a state in the establishment of the of the state, including the fact that Arizona kind of played a trick to get into the US as a state. They were required to change something in their provision for how they will how the handled their judges and resulted didn't like with the federal government wanted them to. Do. So they went ahead and did it to become a state. And then as soon as they were state, they went and undid it and did it the way they want it to. And the whole section on it. It's really quite interesting. So those are my day to number one my action number two is to go back up. If you haven't been discussed to go to Scottsdale and do western spirit. I don't know. Have you been to western spirit in Scottsdale? Chris I do not know where you speak of with western. Still. But well, this isn't relatively new museum. It's maybe five years old at the most they're trying to capture the full extent of the the life and population changes in the west, and it has several components that it's a fine art museum more than a history museum. Although it does have historic pieces. One piece of the museum is a cowboy collection or western collection that has things like Spurs and saddles and all the things you'd expect in like a cowboy museum or an old west museum except most of the pieces were collected because of their artistic value more so than as artifacts of the old west that's a fun place for kids. But it's it's kind of cool for everybody because they have all this stuff. And you start looking at it. And you're like, wow, I never knew Spurs could be that interesting. But they can be part of museums fine. Art, mostly they've been expanding what they've been showing. They usually always have a big section by a prominent bronze artists who does away art in features native Americans, although he's not native American himself. They've added now a western movie poster collection that they acquired so there's usually some sort of western movie themed exhibit. They've also added a collection of Hopi classic historic and contemporary, but mostly historic Hopi pottery that they always have some of undisposed, and then they have some other traveling exhibits they've had western cartoons. They've had the towels painters different things very much art based most of the first floor is very much art based except for the movie posters in the western cowboy things the second floor has to Perm semi permanent exhibits one of which saved Alaska's. It's kind of. Zossen? It's a fine. It's interesting. He's laughing. It's a fine art exhibit. That tells the story of the settlement of the west and meeting of the natives and the Anglos as they started settling the west, it's a big Zabit. And it's interesting, but more interesting as the other half, which has mostly has some fine art, but it mostly has more what we would consider artifacts and objects. So it has some artifacts and things from the Lewis and Clark exhibition. It has collection of spectacular chief's blankets. It has a bunch of Curtis. And they've changed this since I was there. The first time of Curtis original Curtis images of native Americans and showing all the different printing presses he used which was something. I had never seen the goal tones in some of that before. And so that was really interesting. It's got a fabulous mix of items and again, very large exhibit. So this is a museum that if you wanna see everything will take most of the day to take a break here and here from a sponsor with all the recent news of online security breaches is hard not to worry about where your data goes making it online purchase or simply accessing your Email could put your private information at risk. I hope he knew the danger of connecting to the WI fi in the airport or in a local coffee shop. But did you just see AT and T has been selling your data and other companies have been as well your browser history? So that they can target you. You can protect your data and your privacy by using VPN. I have installed express VPN. They have an easy to use app. That runs seamlessly in the background on your computer, your phone, or your tablet. You could turn on protection with one click. It's secure as an anonymous as your internet browsing by encrypting your data, it costs less than seven dollars a month. And it's the number one rated VPN service by tech radar. Protect your online activity today and find out. How you can get three months free at express VPN dot com slash travel. That's E X P R E S S VP and dot com slash travel for three months free with a one year package and thanks to express VPN for sponsoring amateur traveler. Well, it's interesting that's in Scottsdale because of the city's Phoenix there's Phoenix downtown, and we didn't say, but there's all sorts of different places. We'll be talking about around it including Scottsdale to the east and Scottsdale. I would say of the places that I have been in the area is the most cowboy town the downtown Scottsdale has more cowboy art exhibits in stores and things like that and has more of that western heritage. I think they call themselves the most western town in the west. And it's love downtown scout till it's an arty town with this western heritage. And my grandfather actually was a cowboy so I have a fondness for the. Western heritage. We have his Spurs. He was on the last round up in Colorado when he was sixteen he busted broncs being. So I have some connection to this. Although I myself am not a coupla. I would say to if you're bringing kids along in being a western museum Alday seems like that might be the seventh layer of hell for you. You might. Instead if you wanna get in touch with the western heritage take them up to rawhide, which is a wonderfully touristy cheesy. Western recreation town in northern Scottsdale that is more of a kid friendly way to look at some of the western culture. And glad you added that I have not been to rawhide. I was looking at that the other day going I have to get up there. I took my kids there as as a kid. We join it. I mean, it's touristy it's cheesy. But it's great western spirit has some sections for kids and the western area part of it is Scott some good stuff. But both the heard and western spirit. Are pretty adult oriented museums. And glad you mentioned the old town Scottsdale because that would be my other recommendation as once you finish western spirit is actually right along that area where all the galleries an auction houses and studios and things are and they've got that fixed up as a mall. You can go down you can walk into some window shopping. You can go in the galleries. There's a whole range of art. There's the western art. But now there's a lot non western themes done by western artists contemporary artists than there was a few even a few years ago. There's a lot of good restaurants there. No problem finding someplace to eat. Did you have one you would recommend? I was looking to see if there were any that I could recommend, but none are occurring to me cafe forte. Mr. right down on that end in. It's a lovely lovely spot. They do very beautiful dinners and nice lunches. There. We've eaten there couple times. It's not a budget place, but it's not super expensive either. And also for art lovers if you really into art and want something different. If you feeling a little overwhelmed by native and western art, the Scottsdale contemporary art, gallery is down at the end of the mall in that is completely different small small small museum only usually four maybe five exhibits on installations more often, but really interesting edgy stuff. So if you want a little change of pace, that's a good place to walk down to and see what's happening. And as I mentioned Thursdays. Are there aren't night? Most of the year. They have galleries are open late to museums. They're open late things are free. Most of the things are free, and you can walk around, and it's kind of event, and it's a lot of fun to do something like that were to next day three. I think it's time to get out in the Sonoran desert a little farther. I'd recommend taking a hike. Phoenix is a great city for hiking or biking more just getting out endanger, you can hike right in the city of Phoenix. As you go towards the edges of Phoenix. You have the mountain parks, which are spectacular. There's some some parks that we've that we've really really liked because they have a nice mix of trails and fabulous scenery include the mountain parks right in town and yourself thinking of the Phoenix mountains, preserve. I'm thinking of all of those north so user mountain park Dowell park farther out is lost further out. Okay. The problem with the parks like doing the Camelback hike is that you're there with ten thousand other people. So Camelback so there are places to hike inside the city I've been in Phoenix mountain preserve which is an easy hike. And then there's Camelback mountain which is between Phoenix and Scottsdale, which is a much more strenuous hike, but a very popular hike, especially to go up there for sunrise is a very popular thing to do. But yeah, it is more popular while you can get around Phoenix proper Phoenix and Mesa Tempa without a car because of the light rail, you cannot get Scottsdale on the light rail, but you can get to the others Phoenix is so much easier with a car, and if you have a car like I say north cave creek has that's a beautiful park. It's not too far out of the city. If you're staying up in Scottsdale, I generally stay on the east end of the city. I generally stay way out in Mesa the eastern end may so or in Apache junction and from their lost Dutchman state park is just stunningly beautiful Usery mountain state usury mountain recreation area, there's a number of trails out there that are. Tackler and take you right up into the edge of the superstition mountains. So you have the desert and you have the mountains. And when flowers are in bloom, it's just it's a gorgeous area. Do you have particular trail you recommend the to remember? Well, there's chew suggestions one is just about any of the lower trails in Las Dutchman are fabulous. They're beautiful. And then there's a trail if you wanna go all the way out to gold canyon, which is at that far edged the mountains at the Phoenix area. There's a trail out there called the hieroglyphics trail, which has it's a not too difficult on though, I haven't been out there in a few years, but it's still open. It's not too difficult trail that leads out to a basin where there's sometimes waterfall. There's always usually a pool, and then there's petroglyphs on all the cliffside some of them you walk right past the first time, I was out there. We were looking for the petroglyphs in. We were looking so hard for them thinking, they'd be hard to find that we. We actually walked by them. I turned around at some point and looked at my girlfriend in the petroglyphs like over her shoulder right there where you could touch them. So that's a spectacular hike in. It's not a terribly hard hike. Please don't damage the petroglyphs and don't touch them while you're out there 'cause you could date that damages the the artwork, but that's a spectacular hike on that end say we've gone out cave creek in the north has really some wonderful, easy, easy hikes. Kimba Wimpy hiker these days. So. But I would spend the day and just take your time and do one of the parks and enjoy the desert again if you're out there in the spring, the flowers in the desert are spectacular just spectacular. So that's my day. Three is Spencer timeout in for hiking around or in the mountain forests are in the desert area hiking around day four I'm going to suggest something that has nothing to do with Phoenix. Except that it's the only place you'll find this. And that is the musical instrument museum. Good. I was gonna get there. If you didn't. And it's not the only place you'll find it. But we'll talk about the game hoping to see the other one to spring. So the musical instrument museum ignored the name. It's a music museum. The name. There are instruments in the museum. So that is not an accurate. Isn't the totality of the museum? It's really about music and the people who make music as well as the instruments it's experiential in that you put on a set of headphones as you walked through the museum, and as you look at an exhibit. If you turn to watch a classic performance on video you'll hear all the sound over your headphones. If you go up and look at Bali's instruments as you look at the gamma you'll start to hear the Gammel on play in your headphones. If you're watching classic rock somewhere again, you'll hear the sometimes nation, but usually it's just the music. It's a fascinating Newseum to go through in the shows. They have their special exhibits include things like women's Rackers, costumes, or we went to that was it was an art exhibit. I don't remember what they called it. But it was like dragons vines, and it was all the inlay guitars and musical instruments from around the world from the US. It was just an incredibly beautiful show. You've been there. Chris. Wouldn't you say that there's something there for absolutely everybody? I have not been there. My wife has been there to this one. I have been to the one that inspired it in Brussels. But I have not been to this one yet. Oh, will you need to get there? It's unbelievably fun. And it takes leave a lot of time. We left about three hours to do the museum. We took my mother there, and we figured she'd be bored in three hours, and she wasn't board, and we weren't bored in the museum was closing. And so we were very disappointed that we had left more time. That's the same thing. I heard from oh if it was a trip where I drove back from Phoenix, San Jose, California, which is home for me and my wife, flew back. So she had a little more time that to to go and explore in what with reservoirs thoroughly enjoyed it. Yeah. It is a very good reputation. But personally been there I'm gonna check out the one in Brussels spring. I hope so I can compare the two, but I was very very impressed and for lovers of more world music or more. Interesting things, you don't usually see in concerts. They have a beautiful beautiful studio concert space. They're and they do full range of form Ince's through the winter at least. And so if you're heading to town, you can check out and see there might be something really unusual there that you are unlikely to hear somewhere else than it's beautiful space to hear music in. Excellent. Well, you're out in kind of out in that end of of Scottsdale. I think it is it's way north in Scottsdale. So maybe it is gut feeling Notre kind of Scottsdale Phoenix somewhere over there. The trip me up because most things just say Phoenix in the address. And so you're not really sure there is a loop of highways that kind of to me defines the main part of town. And e this is one a one on the north and ten on the south, and this is the northeast corner of that loop. It's out ways compared to the other places we've talked about while you're there. It's further west steel for something again, a little different. But now only probably in Phoenix, there's a place called the deer valley petroglyphs do valley petroglyphs, preserve. There are petroglyphs had mentioned on the hieroglyphics trail. There's actually petroglyphs you can see on the south mountain hike, but deer valley has a whole hillside boulders with hundreds and hundreds of petroglyphs they have a interpretive center that talks about the petroglyphs attacks about the area settlement in the area. It's a really pleasant little site. And if you're like me, really bad at spotting petroglyphs, these are even if you can't find them. I don't know how you couldn't there right in front of you. But they have volunteers out there to help you see the petroglyphs little show you where they are in point them out. So if you wanna see petroglyphs this it's handicapped accessible, it's an easy place to see a little bit more about the history of the area and see these ancient petroglyphs, it's in some really interesting spot. And it's a good extra spot. Run to if you're out at the music musical instrument museum, because it's kind of in that corner of more inner urban area. So for my last day. I am proposing that you leave that civilized Phoenix area behind and head out into the superstition mountains superstitions are on the east. They kind of the east border of the Phoenix area. Beautiful rugged mountains. They don't look like there is rugged as they actually are. There's a roadway into the superstitions historic roadway called the Apache trail. It's if you go out to Lou loss Dutchman and some of the mountain parks out that direction you go right on the patchy trailer up to it for a while on the Apache trail, the first half of the trail is a paved road. It's very scenic. But it's pretty good condition. It's an easy drive. Anyone can drive it. A good half day trip would be to take the trail out to canyon lake in take a cruise on the steamboat Dolly, which will take you down into. Along canyon lake and into its back in early backwaters, but the little offshoots canyon lake is a reservoir. It's Switzer flooded. Canyon has steep cliffs, lots of desert scenery, you might even see some some big horn sheep some wildlife while you're out. It's just a really pleasant little cruise either before after the Dalai, you should continue down the road to tortilla flat. Which is a either restored revived ghost town or a rebuilt completely rebuilt. Ghost town, the original tortilla, flat mostly burned down many many many years ago, they have a little restaurant out there. There's a teensy tiny museum. The restaurant is actually fairly good. It's really good. But it's very western themed, you know, saddles for barstools, and that sort of thing it's an interesting quirky place with decent food makes a really good stop fro either before or after your crews when you go there. It's about a half day trip to go out do the cruise. Have a meal, it tortilla flats and then drive back for the more adventurous, the fun part of the road starts after tortilla flat. Skip the cruise unless you want a really long day, but you could do both once you pass tortilla flat. You you get to a hill. And when you go down the hill the road turns dirt, it's basically the same unpaved road. It was in nineteen thirty six when it was last used as a the main highway between Apache junction, we'll between Phoenix and Payson and you are stepping back in time. It's one lane in some places. If you make it through fish creek through the steep descent, the twists the blind the one lane blind curbs and that area than the rest of the road is pretty drivable. Always check the weather before you go to make sure the road isn't in terrible shape or washed out from Raines was recently graded the last time we were out there. There are some guardrails there are a lot of guardrails because it's a historic road. The apparently can't do much to widen it or improve it. It, but that's part of the adventure. It's a stunning drive. It's a dusty drive. There are some some places to stop where you can admire. The senior admire the wealth lowers there's actually another lake further down Apache lake. There's a little resort marina down there. When you get to the end of the road. There's a big dam area which creates another lake Roosevelt lake which is a big recreation area. And once you get all the way to the end, and it's only about twenty five miles on the unpaved portion, but plan at least an hour or more to drive that part. You cannot drive it over about thirty miles an hour, most of it. And some of it is a lot slower than that. You don't need a high clearance vehicle most of the time, it's not a bad idea. But you can drive it most of the time in a sedan without any problem. But for the adventurous drivers, it's a gorgeous drive when you get to the end, you can stop and take a break at Roosevelt lake, and then you either can go back the way you came or. There's a state highway that runs through the it's the tunnel. National forests, it's a lovely area. Partly desert, partly forested and takes you back down south to down in globe and coming across globe and superior. There's another botanical garden down there that spectacular. If you want to do some more flowers if you're there and flower season, you can tell my thing is flour season. So flower season would be early spring starting in various by year. But usually starting late February, Pat, the poppies sometimes mid February. But March is really marching into early April is usually when the flowers and this year offensive your listeners are thinking about going. This should be a great year for flowers. They've had a lot of rain this winter at should be really really beautiful through most of it's already the starting to bloom even through all March should be really really nice and at the weather's beautiful March is the high season, and we'll get into that in a little bit. Because there's a reason why it's the high season if the high part of the high season actually the winter is the high season go ahead. You're you're talking about flowers though, that Dr gives you some spectacular flowers the hallway when you come down in when you get down. It's Boyce Thompson arboretum down in superior, which is again at far far southeastern edge of the the Phoenix metro area. It's really I would. Consider it part of the Phoenix metro area. But technically it actually is. It's a spectacular drive in that garden is spectacular to Seoul. That's the nice it'd be a full day at a someone wants to do something like that gets you out of town and let get you out into the desert, which is sort of nice. If you're in spending all of your time right in the Phoenix area. That's only five days. There's other things you could do I did not mention tally Essen, which is Frank Lloyd Wright's Greenwich that Yuka. Winter residents. It's a very interesting place to tour. I think it's an interesting place to tour if you're an architecture geek, which I happen to be I not sure that I would recommend it for anybody. Who's not a real fan of architecture? But if you are a, yeah, this is a very major site. In fact, it is on the list of possible UNESCO world heritage site as a multi site portion about Frank Lloyd Wright, oh, I didn't realize that. Yeah. No. I would agree that you need to be an architecture fan and partly because it's quite expensive to tour. It's not a budget tour, and you have to buy to to do it for architecture fans in general Phoenix is a great city because developed so much in the forties, and particularly the fifties and sixties, so it's unbidden century modern stuff everywhere, they do a mid century modern week in March. There's just lots and lots of interesting architecture from that period as well as some really interesting modern the lot of the civic buildings that were built. Twenty thirty years ago or more recently are just really spectacular both in Phoenix. And in Scottsdale in particular, the western spirit in Scottsdale is an architecture. Very interesting building with a lot of sustainability features interesting. Interesting features, there's a Pam the Phoenix. Art museum is a real interesting building. There's a lot of really interesting buildings. But for Frank Lloyd Wright fans, this is one of the big ones. The other thing. I didn't mention is for fans of either western art in general, art, or native American Arthur's a museum down in Chandler called the Basha collection. And it was the private collection of Eddie Basha who runs the who. At one point ran the Basha grocery stores, and it's not curated the same way the say the heard or western spirit is but for someone who's interested in that sort of art, it's an amazing collection. He'll have he has in some cases, hundreds of pieces by the same artists. You can see like your. Development style through time. It's a large collection in unlike most things and Phoenix for most museums. It's totally free only when weekdays, but it's an interesting thing. Most people don't know about the last one I'd add that people should maybe think about is the superstition mountain museum, which is a little more informal than most of the other museums. I've mentioned it's at the base of the superstitions where the Apache trail starts they have some really cool mining memorabilia pieces while not huge equipment. They have some historic buildings and some historic looking buildings. So they've set up kind of like an old mining town. And it's very atmospheric in the location stunning. It's a beautiful beautiful location. The other thing that we haven't talked about is why March is so busy in Phoenix. And it's going to be one of the more expensive times to go and that spring training if you were a baseball fan, the number one reason that I have been a Phoenix over the last twenty years or so is to go down for spring training. We're half of the American baseball teams. Well, half of the American US and Canadian will end up in Phoenix and the other half in Florida, and you could go down and see half the teams play in general, and how cheap it is depends on where you go. If you go to Scottsdale stadium where the giants play you'll pay as much as you will for game that you see in San Francisco, but on the other hand, if you go out to Glendale or Peoria to one of the other stadiums where some of the mid western teams are playing you can sometimes see a game for really cheap a game and a hotdog and can be quite a fun experience to go and see a number of the different teams all in a short period of time. Which is why it is. So popular will be a little more expensive to go that time of year. But that is a big draw in Phoenix in spring training starts in February and then finished his March. Yeah. And. Really it's March. That's the the big thing. Because that's when they start playing more games the pitchers catchers reported mid-february. So that is something that we have been down for many times and is good fun. But again, a little more expensive get friends to stay with. That's a great time to go but lights are going to be a little more hotels going to be a little more hotels early challenge and rental cars. I don't know if you guys fly drive, but I have been there in March where there has not been a rental car available in Phoenix believe that. Yeah. I mean, it seems as ING, but it's it's true because of the spring training, and all there is a lot of marches probably Phoenix's month for the best weather the entire year. It is a great time to be there. Usually I have also been there during hailstorms in March so easily could weather then but not always and for hikers the snakes aren't out yet. Okay. Good to know. It's still too cold. It's warm enough for us. But not for the snakes, generally. Okay. That that is always something. Couple things other things for kids. There's a children's museum I have not been there. So I cannot recommend it necessarily. But there is a zoo that our kids enjoyed when they were younger in Phoenix that was quite fun some other things for kids to but again, I don't travel with kids either. So it's harder. But the zoo is the zoo is very nice. Yeah. US news World Report that put that in their fourth on the list, even above the Phoenix art museum, and some of the other places we've talked about they put it above the heard museum, which I know is fighting words for you. But. It's a zoo. It's a good soon though. I would recommend that more of the shoulder season or the winter in the summer that's going to be pretty warm. Yeah. I mean, that's generally true anything outdoors. You wanna do even the end may? But for sure June through even I've been in their late September. And it's still Ben really in the nineties hundred degrees. So early mornings or evenings. A really when you wanna be out. You wanna do stuff that's inside an air conditioned, every places are conditioned in Phoenix. It is a drier heat than you would find in the midwest east coast or the south like an oven. But it gets quite warm. So and there's you know, spas, golf courses and all sorts of other things that people go down to Phoenix for that. I'll let you look on your own anything else. We wanna tell people before we get to some of our wrap up questions, Cindy mentioned is that for looking for lodging in Phoenix that there's really some key places. If you wanted urban experience to stay downtown Phoenix downtown Scottsdale, or in one for more laidback urban experience in one of the historic districts and Phoenix they actually have a lot of historic districts, and there's a Fairmont of Airbnb is in them luxuries arts up north in Scottsdale or the desert escapes out on the eastern edge of the metro area. You can find some spectacular places out there. Great views, and you can hike right out your door, and I should say that if you're looking at a map of Phoenix almost everything we covered other than some of the parks that we went out and heighten were in the eastern part of that circle that I drew. Around Phoenix with highway one and highway ten almost everything we did was to the east of highway seventeen which runs north and south sort of in the center of Phoenix. We didn't talk about places like Sun City where a lot of the retirees are and some of that area. That's a little less. Interesting to me, unless you're really fond of astroturf lawns and things like that. We also didn't talk about Mesa and Tempe, which you say is where you stay. Is there anything we want to say about those areas? Why did you stay in the farther eastern part of Mesa or north on the mountains? But downtown Mesa is really starting to have a rebirth in his becoming an interesting arts area. They've done a lot of landscaping they've put in a beautiful art center. They have some historic buildings. They lost a lot of them. But they have some there's a historic neighborhood. So it's it's becoming a really attractive place to stay and are more little more urban stay, but not being in Phoenix. It's let cheaper than downtown Phoenix Scottsdale Tempe. I have not stayed in Tempe. But we've gone down there on the light rail we've stopped there few times to eat and check it out. And that is of course, we're on a state university is located that's probably the liveliest place in the Phoenix metro area right now, there's all sorts of bars and restaurants in while lot of it's aimed at college students. Not all of it is and it's become a real interesting urban place, the kind of hang out and eat and do things and be. Outside and they've got some great parks. And so again, that's more urban areas, especially for younger people. There's a lot more nightlife. It's I have been in restaurants in Phoenix and Mesa recently that eight thirty you're eating dinner in their starting to put the tables on the chairs on the tables and close up for the night. So. If you want to be a little later, Scottsdale or Tempe is probably your best place to go and look for a little bit of nightlife. Excellent. All right. You're standing in the prettiest spot in Phoenix where he standing in. What are you looking at this is cheating? But I think the prettiest place in Phoenix is any place where I can see Sura cactus silhouetted against the setting sun. Just my favorite thing. Can you a lot of places that is a lot of places? Can you think of one place in particular? I'm very partial to lost Dutch mistake part because you can see the swirl mountains on one side swore months, the superstition mountains on one side, and you can see Phoenix off in the distance. And so you can have the best of everything. Excellent. One thing that makes you love and say only in Phoenix. It's the phones it's getting better. There are water features everywhere in Phoenix, just everywhere. And they recycle all the water. I understand that. It's reused water. And they reuse it for five times even before it gets in the fountains. But. It still seems just crazy to see all these cactuses growing alongside these beautiful ponds around the greenfields, and golf courses and lawns. It's just. It's crazy. Excellent. And if you had to summarize Phoenix in three words, what three words would use vibrant, artsy and Suru. Excellent. Well, we did we did talking about the cactus is so much the one thing that may surprise you. If you're not from the area is how old these cactuses are because I think oral cactus won't even get an arm a limit till it's like one hundred years old if I recall correctly. So if you see something up there that's got two three four arms as a cactus. It is hundreds of years old so beat, you know, be careful with them be gentle with them. But they are very interesting adapt Haitians of plants that grow in the area. Yeah. And they're only found in the Sonoran desert. So they're only found in the central southern Arizona into Mexico and in in Phoenix, UC them planted on the roadsides all over the place and just everywhere, but they're cool. They're so cool city if we wanted to send people to the best post on Phoenix on at exploration vacation dot net. What post would we send them to? I have a separate landing. Page for exploring Phoenix in the valley of the son that has just some summaries, and that has links to a few other stories and things a lot of the places of talked about I haven't actually written about because it's I'm down there so often I don't get things written up. Our guest again, it's been Cindy Carlson from exploration vacation dot net. Simi thanks so much for coming on amateur traveler and sharing with us your love of Phoenix. Thanks, Chris is really fun. It's always fun to talk to you. Couple of new things on the amateur traveler blog one is I finally got around to writing up some of the amateur travel trips in blog format. So if you're interested in reading about Morocco Cambodia or India, you can check those out at the top page of amateur traveler, also we just got back from Portland, and there's a couple articles about things to do in Portland and winter and best Portland food trucks and carts. So check those out amateur traveler dot com. If you're looking for California content on the amateur trough, or you're gonna have to go instead to California travel media dot com, all that content. Got moved to a new California website that I'm going to be putting some work into. I heard from Kyle this weekend. Kyle said I just wanted to send you a quick note of appreciation. I came across the amateur traveler podcast years ago via your tech in travel minute features on Tom merits daily tech news show putt cast a been a regular listener ever since. Last fall, my wife, and I moved from Pennsylvania to Brussels for an expat assignment, I've been combing through the amateur traveler archives since then and binging the European episodes to help decide where we should travel on our new home continent, you've created such an invaluable resource with rich catalogue of travel experience. Please do keep up the good work regards Kyle and thanks so much. It was great to get your Email. And also people don't know what he's talking about four nail over two years. I've been doing once a week just a quick tech in travel tip for the daily tech news show, which is my daily tech new show of choice. I'm a regular listener of that show as well with that will bring an end to this episode of amateur traveler giving questions Senate Email to hosted amateur traveler dot com or better yet. Leave a comment on this episode at amateur traveler dot com, and thanks so much for listening. See? Champ.
Full Episode: Tuesday, June 4, 2019
"Hey, I'm Brad milkey from ABC news. And if you like world news tonight, I wanna let you know about another podcast that I host called start here. Every morning in twenty minutes. We'll give you a whip around the biggest stories driving the day with context from the people who are covering them up close that includes David Muir, Tom yomas, the whole world news tonight team so start smart and subscribe to start here brought to you by indeed used by over three million businesses for hiring where business owners and HR professionals can post job openings with screener questions, than sort review and communicate with candidates from an online dashboard. Learn more at indeed dot com slash tonight. Tonight. Breaking news after the horrific school shootings in parkland. Florida this evening, the new charges, just in the deputy seen on surveillance outside that school during the rampage under arrest authorities saying his inaction cost lives also tonight, the high stakes for President Trump right here in London. The protests and standing side-by-side today with the prime minister who he wants heavily criticized with days left for her in power, what he now said today, the major headline, the CDC, Dow, on the case tonight, the American couple from Fort Worth, Texas, healthy at odd their dream trip suddenly struck with a deadly illness. Both of them dying at the hospital now, several people, they might have come in contact with are reportedly under observation, the flooding catastrophe water levels at all time, highs tonight, this home completely surrounded. More rain coming. Deadly shooting, the US border, the images here tonight, the American who tried to drive through a thorny say he opened fire, and then he was shot and killed. We have new reporting tonight on the missing mom her estranged husband and his girlfriend arrested at tonight, why thirties are now zeroing in out of trash plant today that you're. Dramatic rescue pictures coming in at this hour. The seventy four year old woman hiking, rescued spinning, and the stretcher as she was lifted out and return to Normandy, tonight, the chilling descriptions, from the heroes themselves young American sons, who changed the course of history, what they saw what they did as tonight eight journey back. This is ABC warlords tonight with David new reporting tonight from London. And good evening from London. We are here for the president's visit tonight before we head to Normandy, France, and we will get to all of that in just a moment here. But we do begin tonight with the breaking headline involving the deadly massacre in parkland, Florida. We all remember seventeen students and teachers were killed tonight. There are new charges. A former sheriff's deputies seen on surveillance outside that high school as the rampage was underway inside has now been criminally charged tonight. They say his inaction cost lives on another surveillance camera. We saw the gunman making his way through that school while that deputy was outside tonight here. The results are just in after a fifteen month investigation, and ABC's Victor KENDALL lead us off from Florida. As the horror was unfolding inside. Marjory stoneman Douglas high school students taking covered who escaped the gunfire. Outside the school's resource officer roared sheriff's deputy Scott Peterson hearing the shots. Building heading toward the building in this Gulf guard. Then taking position outside for twenty seven minutes never entering the building when it was all over seventeen people were dead. Another seventeen injured tonight that Florida deputy is under arrest. George with eleven criminal counts, including seven counts of child neglect, a state review funding Peterson refused to investigate the source of gunshots retreated, while victims were being shot and directed officers away from the building the Florida Department of law enforcement saying there can be no excuse for his complete inaction, and no question that his inaction cost lives in an interview on the today. Show last year. Peterson said at the time he thought the shots were coming from outside. I hear two shots are mmediately stop, and I'm thinking to myself home. I gotta hear shots outside, you know, it's kind shot five thought they were gunshots. I thought they were outside immediately. And the first thing I thought was somebody. Shooting s tonight. Fred Guttenberger, who lost his daughter, Jamie, in the shooting tweeting rot in hill, Scott Peterson. You could have saved some of the seventeen you could have saved my daughter you did not. And then you lied about it and you deserve the misery coming your way. And Victor KENDALL is with us live tonight from Florida and victory. No that deputy had already resigned. And today, he was taken into custody. That's right. David, he was taken into custody on a one hundred and two thousand dollar bond if convicted on all charges, he's looking at more than ninety six years in prison. One of his attorneys tonight, saying he is surprised by these criminal charges. David Victor KENDALL leading us off tonight from Florida Victor. Thank you, now to President Trump's official state visit right here in the UK, the president with Prime Minister, Theresa may, today, who he wants heavily criticized what he said today now that she has just days lifted power. Meantime, thousands, protested and marched through the streets here. The president did not shy away from weighing in on the turmoil here in the UK about the protests today. He said, all he saw was tremendous spirit and love ABC's, Terry Moran is with us here in London tonight. On the streets of London today, Trump supporters, and thousands of anti-trump protesters scuffled as police struggled to separate them. There were chance. Then placards, and that Trump balloon. But when asked about it all at his press conference with Prime Minister Theresa may. The president simply brushed it on, and I heard that there were protests. I said, where are the protests? I don't see any protests. I did see us small protest today when I came very small. And in fact on this rainy day turnout was far smaller than the two hundred and fifty thousand organizers promised or even the seventy five thousand they claim on this trip, the American president has made himself a major player in British politics, weighing in again, on Brexit Britain, leaving the European Union, which has divided this country and sparked political kale. I would say, I would think that it will happen, and it probably should happen. This is a great great country and it wants its own identity. The president was gracious towards Theresa May who has announced her resignation on a previous visit to the UK. He said she was handling Brexit talks all wrong. I seem to remember the president suggested that I sued the European Union, which we didn't do we went into negotiations and we came up with a good. Deal. That's not such I would have sued. But that's okay. I would have sued and settled maybe but you never know. She's probably a better negotiator than I am on this. Visit every Trump moment has been scrutinized by the British press that dinner with the Queen, and most of all this, wink, from Camilla duchess of Cornwall after she and Prince Charles had the Trump's to t- tonight, Charles and Camilla are the president's guests at a grand dinner at the US ambassador residents. And Terry Moran is with us here in London tonight, and Terry to people who were not at that dinner Prince, Harry and duchess Meghan, but President Trump did reveal today that he spoke with the prince on his visit to Buckingham Palace. That's right, David, in an interview with Piers Morgan, the president saying he thought Prince Harry was terrific guy in that Harry couldn't have been nicer to him about Meghan Markle, who's criticized the president of past. He said she was nasty about me, and that's okay for her to be nasty. It's not good for me to be nasty about her, and I wasn't so there, you have David Terry Moran across town here in London. Tonight, Terry, thank you next tonight, we turn that deepening. Mystery the CDC is now on the case involving that American couple healthy. And on their dream vacation. When they suddenly came down with a mystery illness and then dying at a hospital in Fiji. And tonight, several others are reportedly under observation. Now, here's ABC's Paula Farris. It was the trip of a lifetime. But David and Michelle Paul didn't make it out of Fiji alive. The Texas couple dined within. Days of one another from a mysterious illness, the couple both in their thirties, both healthy inactive David, an air force veteran Michelle a former student athlete. They arrived may twenty second but soon fell ill. And now a report from the Fiji sun that five locals who came in contact with them are under observation and showing similar symptoms, and at least ten resort staff, where they stayed have been asked to go on precautionary leave Fiji's government is leading the investigation with the CDC monitoring the couple leaving behind a young son and daughter tonight, their family in search of answers. Or biggest appeal CDC's watching is doing your work because I need your help to find out what happened the CDC does not know what the couple died from, but they will be receiving and testing samples from the autopsy, if it's determined that they died from infectious disease. The CDC will most likely be issuing a travel advisory David Paul affairs. Tonight. Paula, thank you. We continue to watch the devastating and historic flooding. Back home this home in pine bluff. Arkansas is now an island threatened by the Arkansas river tonight at an all time, high these homes and buildings already lost only rooftops above the water and Conway, Arkansas. In Iowa tonight, I twenty nine in I six eighty are flooded and closed to traffic. There is more rain coming chief meteorologist, tutors against trucking force. David tonight, the damaging winds would be the main threaten, especially in parts of Wisconsin, down through Illinois, including Chicago and Saint Louis. So keep an eye on that tonight. Keep it on flash flood potential from Houston over to south western Louisiana as we go through the early morning hours and after noon tomorrow, we're talking to inch per hour rainfall rates. And then that moisture moves north of the areas that don't need it. Arkansas, missouri. And yes, even along the Mississippi River. David. Thank you would now to the deadly shooting on the US border tonight, the American who tried to drive through a busy crossing authorities say when they tried to stop him. He opened fire they shot and killed him. Here's ABC's Cup tonight. Those gunshots. Shattering the routine of one of America's busiest ports of entry all of a sudden, we had like. And I thought it was just like an eighty or fireworks or something just outside of San Diego, the semi see Joe port handles more than two million vehicles a month, but it all came to a terrifying. Standstill late Monday that Twenty-three-year-old white male driving in from Mexico, allegedly, refusing to stop at an inspection area, which includes a slow course of barriers. Instead that suspect trying to drive through the barrier into the United States officers trying to stop him suspects car eventually blocked by another vehicle. Police say that's when the suspect allegedly open fire officers say they returned fire killing him. David, investigators are still collecting evidence at the scene. Seven officers involved in the shooting. None of them was hurt. David Matt Cup in reporting tonight. Matt, thank you, the other headline involving the US and Mexico. President Trump is now facing a possible revolt from his own party over his threat to impose tariffs on Mexico. He says. Says to deal with immigration after a closed-door lunch at the capitol today. Senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell said there isn't much support among his members other senators said they feared the impact on the economy and other states hours earlier right here in London. The president said Republicans would be quote, foolish to try to stop him after our broadcast here tonight. We will be traveling to Normandy to Mark the seventy fifth anniversary of d day and for weeks. Now, we have been traveling across the US to beat World War, Two veterans who were there that day they were young sons, who would change the course of history and tonight, right here, you will see the moment. Many of them meet for the first time to make that journey back together. It is a turning. They never thought they would make seventy five years later. They are returning to Normandy herald, Bickmore in Newmarket, Alabama at his uniform or part of it, there, and the entry it is diary, that fateful morning, Jim sakes, nineteen forty four invasion started seven fifteen. A M. Ing mish tan that would be all he wrote for five heroin days. I didn't have time doing interest next limbs herald at ninety four drive to the airport. He's going back. So as jet clayborn from Dyersburg, Tennessee. Herald, Himmelsbach was raised in Yakima Washington. He's knelt packing the letters he wrote to his mother just days after d day. You're right. I'll leave all the bloody details written to Leo. Brother, brother, tell him herald with descriptions of war. He thought only a brother should hear Vinson Unger from Orlando, Florida, and is my baby, my ship Vincent going back to a no frills, Hikari, Las Vegas Nevada Puerta v m fibia s- brigade on d day company, we wore this, and I felt on jackets, all of them leaving home again on my way to normally they have yet to beat one another, but they already share a bond. They were all there, that morning, June sixth, nineteen forty four the largest piteous invasion in military history fifty miles of Normandy, coastline, the beaches with codenames Utah, Omaha gold Juno and sword. And what they did it change the course of the war herald, Himmelsbach remembers the wake up at three AM. It was not long after when you looked around and saw all of those ships. Did you think this is actually happening? I sure did could you see the beach? It was a couple of thousand yards. It did they saw things they will never forget herald McMoran fourth infantry division, purser frayed, and I was scared, and then I was known. The metaphor of oil with rounded paper. Sometimes they were wounded himself, and they were try to perform. Sometimes they be more shapes is trying to take care of. We all had what we call it a buddy and we knew. Give his life last curse. A no frills Hikari remembers the orders, the office. Let's go inland. We've gotta go. I can't even get up for God's sakes. I mean it was just fire over your heads all the time. Vincent Unger second-class signal been in the navy. The water was from orange to deep red for miles twenty miles down the coast more than four thousand allied troops were killed, but their brothers would prevail. When you go back to Normandy. I'm sure you'll be thinking of some of those others lost yet. What does this trick mean to you Willisch my last trip here? I expect because age not three almost four, I'm hoping that going back to Normandy, Disney closure, some kind of hope I get out and other people. See, so my eyes, these veterans are aware that at their age, we're now losing than three hundred World War, Two veterans in the US every day, I'm sure he's getting smaller small. Yeah. Which is why we need to remember that each of these men flying to Atlanta to meet up and then fly together to France, the pilot thanking them before they even board. You've made for us. Thank you. To start working with the veterans. I thank you. One by one Carol cables back walking to the gate with his daughter sue behind him. Might second hearing. Peril Marin, brought to that plane jet clayborn on board to Vincent Unger. And Onofrio Sakari looking out at this journey ahead, all of them ready. Oh, please in excited because I never thought I'd be coming here I am. And I'm looking forward to it. And of course, we will be enormity with those World War, Two veterans, I told them, I would meet them there and they told us they have plenty, they want to show us that's tomorrow night, and Thursday night right here in the meantime, there is still much more head on world news. Tonight this Tuesday, new reporting on that missing mother of five tonight. Her estranged husband had his girlfriend already arrested and tonight the new development. Authorities are now zeroing in on a trash plant. They were there all day. Also tonight, your health, and your diet, the new study and the surprising findings when it comes to white meat versus red meat and a dramatic rescue pictures coming in tonight just before we came on the air. The seventy four year old woman spitting into stretcher there as she was lifted out of trouble. We have a lot more news ahead tonight. Stay tuned. Brought to you by indeed used by over three million businesses for hiring, where business owners and HR professionals can post job openings with screener questions, than sort review and communicate with candidates from an online dashboard. Learn more at indeed dot com slash ABC capital. One is building a better Bank when that feels an axe nothing like a typical Bank. It's why the reimagining banking and building something completely different Capital, One cafe. They offer accounts with no fees are minimums, they also offer one of the best savings rates in America, and you can open a Capital, One account from anywhere in five minutes. Capital One, this is banking. Reimagined open account today, an experienced banking, reimagined for yourself Capital One. What's in your wallet Capital, One NA member FDIC next tonight, here, new focus in the search for that missing mother five after police revealed they have discovered evidence of her blood ABC's. Eva pilgrim is in Connecticut tonight tonight, the search for. In connecticut. Mother Jennifer Delos focusing on this trash plant in Hartford. This after police revealed evidence against restraint husband and his girlfriend, whereas surveillance from the night, Jennifer disappeared. Allegedly shows fatigues Delos throwing away multiple garbage bags near that plant. Police say his girlfriend Michelle Trudeau conus was with him, and that the evidence detectives later recovered tested positive for Jennifer dillas blood. It's been two weeks since the mother of five vanished after dropping her children off at school. Jennifer, tonight's Recode is out on bond bootees remains behind bars both facing charges for evidence tampering and hindering. The prosecution David today, Jennifer's mother filed for custody of her five children, asking a judge to allow the children to stay in her care, even if their father is able to bond out of jail, David. Even pilgrims, tonight, even thank you to the index of the news tonight into dramatic rescue from the Phoenix mountain images showing seventy four year old woman airlifted from a local peak after suffering an injury spinning violently in that stretcher. There is no word yet tonight on her condition and is white meat really better for your health than red meat. A new study tonight in the American journal of clinical nutrition, finding a diet, including white meat like chicken, or Turkey had roughly the same effect on LDL. That's your bad cholesterol, as a diet packed with red meats, like beef though. They say there are other reasons to avoid red meat the best option. They say plant based proteins finally tonight here jeopardy James meets his match at a young librarian and what he's saying tonight about her. Jeopardy. Alex trebek's began by thanking the reigning champs for something else. My thanks to your beautiful little daughter. Natasha for having made this get well card for me that, that was very sweeter. Last night's game started like so many before literature thousand. Magic mountain. You are right James. What is comparing apples and oranges? Yeah. James crudity good jeopardy. James would meet his matching Twenty-seven-year-old Emma Becher young librarian from Chicago from auditioned for jeopardy four times before being selected. She wrote her master's thesis on the game. Now, I think I got to make it a true daily double. All right. Thousand two hundred what is an is? That's right. Final jeopardy. His response was correct, his wager a modest one for the first time but got it right to you did when this time she did with James often did she went all in? New champion and a high five for James game ham. I gone, what thing that makes me really happy as that. I didn't beat myself. I lost to an elite player playing a near perfect game. We knew it couldn't last forever. But now we root for Emma. I'll see you tomorrow reporting from Normandy. Goodnight brought to you by indeed used by over three million businesses for hiring where business owners and HR professionals can post job openings with screener questions, than sort review and communicate with candidates from an online dashboard. Learn more at indeed dot com slash tonight.
240: Three Financial Lessons from Thoreau
"Walk in the money for the rest of us. This is a personal finance show on money. How it works? How to invest it and how to live without worrying about it? I mean host David Stein today has up to forty it's tied up three financial lessons. From Henry, David Thoreau. But thinking a lot about throw recently as the pro ni- arrived in Phoenix a few weeks ago. Just brought our cars close our dog. Podcasting equipment video equipment and nothing else. So we showed up at our house the realtor medicine with the keys, and there was a box with a mattress on the front porch that first night, that's all we had one mattress the sleep on. Then over the last few weeks, we've been slowly adding things to the house figuring out what we need. What can we buy used which we buy new? Kinda getting it down to the essentials and somewhat like throw did probably a little grander scale. But I've been thinking about throw. In some ways, he's very relatable. He was not wealthy. He's struggled with money issues. Much of his life. Now, his family headache successful pencil making business. But the row wanted to make his own way. In the world for much of his life. He was poor. He wrote in the first chapter of Walden. Some of you. We all know are poor find it hard to live are sometimes as it were gasping for breath. I have no doubt that some of you who read this book unable to pay for all the dinners, which you have actually eaten or for the coats and shoes which are fast wearing or worn out and have come to this page to spend borrowed or stolen time. Robbing your creditors of an hour. It is very evident. Went mean and sneaking lives. Many of you live from my site has been wetted by experience. Always on the limits. Trying to get into business trying to get out of debt. That's what throw experience he was dead for much of his life hit a number of businesses fail. He got laid off fired from jobs. Even this cabin or hut. He built you didn't own the land next to Walden pond. Ralph WALDO Emerson did he bought it the year before September eighteen forty four. Emerson wrote his brother I have lately added an absurdity or to to my usual ones, which I am impatient. To tell you of in one of my solitary would walks by Walden pond. I met two or three men who told me they had come visit to sell and to buy a field on which they wished me to bid as a purchaser as it was on the shore of the pond, and now for years, I had a sort of daily occupancy in it, I bid on it and bought it eleven acres for eight dollars and ten cents per acre. The next day. Emerson bought three or four more acres. These were wooded acres adjacent to the regional purchase paid one hundred twenty five dollars. So roughly thirty to forty dollars per acre. The difference was it was wooded. The eleven acres. He bought originally would have been cut down about fifteen years earlier, a lot of stumps, but the wooded acreage. Much higher demand. Emerson rotas brother. So I am a landlord and water Lord of fourteen acres more or less on the shore of Walden and can raise my own blackberries. Emerson bought the land because he he walked on it in one of the things that was happening is the railroad had come through. There was a lot of consumption of timber. A sawmill was running just near there cutting up chestnut trees to make rails. I guess they're called sleepers for the train tracks. So the price of wood was was rising rapidly. Emerson wanted to secure supply of firewood any wanted to preserve the woods that he liked to walk in. This parcel was not in primeval forest by any means. It was kinda in this is the description found in a book called Walden pond. By w Barksdale Maynard it was on the north edge of the woods between the highway and the train tracks. You could see the train tracks and the highway the road from the door. Throw borrowed an axe to cut down some Emerson's newly bought trees to fashion into beams. He used recycled boards for his hut that he got from an abandoned Irish shanty next to the railroad Irish should had built huts that they lived in. While they help build the railroad. His chimney came from recycled bricks from a building that was built in the late seventeen ninety s. Then he began as to your experiment. He left Walden woods September six eighteen forty seven. We don't really know why he left. But Maynard suggest that throw needed money you. He tried growing beans. At seven miles of bean rose about twenty five thousand plants you wrote in August at one point. I'm not going to grow beans next year doesn't sound like he liked that. But Emmerson actually bought the cabin back from the row and then throw moved into Emerson's house to house sit and to help care for a young pair. Napa orchard that Emerson had just started. Emerson was going abroad. When an today sponsors is blinking and their summary of Walden says throws Walden routine meant boiling things down to the bare essentials. So he could stay focused on more enlightened pursuits and in doing so devote himself, philosophical, spiritual creative and artistic endeavors. What is blinking? Well, it is the only add that takes thousands of the best-selling nonfiction books and distills him down to their most impactful elements. You can read or listen to them in under fifteen minutes all on your phone. The blink libraries massive it has timeless classics like Walden. But also current bestsellers blankets is constantly curated in adding new titles from the best of list. So you're always getting the most powerful ideas in a mobile friendly format right now for a limited time blankets as a special offer. Just for you. Go to blink. I dot com slash David to start your free seven-day trial. That's blankets spelled B L I N K I S, T dot com slash David. Start your free seven-day trial. You can cancel anytime. That's blinking dot com slash David. The first financial lesson. We can learn from Toronto he taught in that first chapter of Walden. It's to calculate cost in terms of our life. Here's how Frederick grow. He's a professor of philosophy at the university of Paris. He describes this as the rose new economics wrote about it in a great book of philosophy of walking. He writes through proposed the new economics. The principle is a simple one instead of asking what return a given activity will produce. The question is what it cost in terms of pure life. In walden. Throw wrote the cost of a thing is the amount of what I will call life, which is required to be exchanged for it immediately or in the long run. How much of her life? Are we spending pursuing? An activity that maybe gives us financial return. What's the cost cow Newport in his book digital minimalism? This just came out wrote the rose obsession with calculation helps us move past. The vague subjective sense that there are trade offs inherent in digital clutter and forces us instead to confront it more precisely he asked us to treat the minutes of her life as a concrete invaluable substance. Arguably the most viable substance we possess and to always reckon with how much of this life. We trade for the various activities we are allowed to claim our time. When we confront our habits who this perspective, we will reach the same conclusion. Now that throw did in his era more often than not the cumulative cost of the non crucial things we cut our lives with can far outweigh the small benefits each individual piece of clutter promises. A few months ago. I concluded an experiment that I started in June. Twenty seventeen. I started tracking my time on an iphone app. I wanted to see. Where my life was going. What was what activities were was spending my life on what was the cost? I found it typically spend fifty five hours a week sleeping including naps thirty one hours. Working a which are on average nine hours is writing or prepping for the podcast. And on average, I spent one and a half to two hours a week recording the podcast, then in October two thousand eighteen I just stopped at tired of picking up my phone that much. I was spending too much of my life quantifying how I was spending. My time Frederick grow points out. And this is one of the principles that throw taught that we need to distinguish profit financial profit from benefits. He writes, the difference between profit and benefit is that operations producing profit can be carried out on my behalf. But the fact remains that profitable activity can always be carried out by someone else. Hence the principle of competition on the other hand, what is beneficial to me. Depends on gestures acts living moments, which it would be impossible for me to delegate throw wrote in a letter that when considering a course of action one should ask could someone else. Do it in my place. If the answer is yes, abandoned, the idea unless it is absolutely essential living in the deepest sense. Is something no one else can do for us. So delegate things that cost us too much in terms of her life throws says we should be constantly calculating this a lot of calculations in Walden. As he went into excruciating detail. In terms of what it costs to put his house together. So that's the first lesson calculate the true cost in terms of our life. Second. Is and this is a quote from throat we cannot afford not to live in the present. In may nineteen sixty two a month after throw passed away, the Atlantic magazine published an essay by the rogue titled walking in their throat wrote above all we cannot afford not to live in the present. He is blessed over all mortals who loses no moment of the passing life in remembering the past. Then throw expand on an analogy using Roosters. I remember when I lived in Mexico. They were Roosters that called the mornings, but in the afternoons all the time eventually learn to tune them out. The row says we shouldn't do that. He writes and less our philosophy. Here's the cock crow in every barnyard within our horizon. It is related. In other words, it's not a good philosophy. We need to listen. That sound commonly reminds us that we are growing rusty in N teak in our Employment's in habits of thought his the Roosters philosophy comes down to a more recent time than ours. There is something suggested by it. It is a newer testament the gospel. According to this moment, you continues the rooster has not fallen a stern. He has got up early and kept up early to be where he is to be in season in the foremost rank of time. Other words, the Roosters in the present. He says the Roosters call is an expression of health and soundness of nature a brag for all the world. We should be in the present. Is what throw suggest tick not hun is a world renowned zen monk, poet and peace activists. It was nominated for the Nobel peace prize. Born in Vietnam spent decades exiled in France in his book, you are here. He writes, a fundamental condition for love is your own presence in order to love. You must be here. That is certain fortunately being here is not a difficult thing to accomplish it is enough to breathe and let go of thinking or planning just come back to yourself concentrate on your breath, and smile and the technique. He is is as you breathe in say yourself breathing in. I know that I am breathing in you right, twenty do this the energy of mindfulness embraces. In breath. Just like this sunlight touching the leaves. And branches of a tree. Being in the present. We've tendency to worry where he better financial situation. Are we saving enough? What's the market doing? What what what about our investments, we need to step back and focus being mindful and focus on the present Frederick? Grow says, they will surely come when we will just stop worrying stop being taken over and imprisoned by our chores while knowing very well that we have invented most of them imposed them on ourselves working accumulating savings perpetual, anxiety, not to miss any career opportunity coveting this or that job rushing the work worrying about competitors. Do this take a look at that invite? So and so social constraints cultural, fashions, busy, busy busy. But always to do something not to be. Leave that for later. There's always something better more urgent more important to be done now being can wait until tomorrow. But tomorrow brings chores for the day after an endless tunnel, and they call it living recently finished the book, essentially by Greg McEwen. I listen to it again. I've read it before. Then my take away from that is too is that I always ask myself. What is the most essential thing? I can be doing now to bring myself into the present. So now spending so much time worrying. What's the most essential thing? I can do. Now, take a moment to breathe and to listen. Before we explore throws third financial lesson. Let me pause and share some words from one of this week sponsors. The right hire can make a huge impact on your business. That's why it's so important to find the right person. But where do you find that individual you can post a job on a job board and hope the right person will find your job? But think about it. How often do you hang out on job boards? Don't leave finding someone great to chance when you can post your job to place where people go every day to make connections grow in their career. Discover job opportunities linked in most link members haven't recently visited top job boards, but nine out of ten members are open to new opportunities. And with seventy percent of the US workforce unlinked in posting on Lincoln is the best way to get your job opportunity in front of more of the right people. Hurry delinked in dot com slash David and get fifty dollars off your first job post. That's Lincoln dot com slash David to get fifty dollars off. Your first job post linked in dot com slash David terms and conditions apply. The third financial lesson from throws little counterintuitive once we have eliminated activities that are costing too much of her life. We've learned the delegate to focus on the present. What do we do with this extra time the rose answer in? It's the third financial lesson is to walk. In his essay walking throw wrote. No wealth can buy the requisite leisure, freedom and independence, which are the capital in this profession. The profession of walking capital is typically considered monetary wealth monetary assets throw says monetary wealth can't buy the capital the leisure freedom and independence necessary to be a Walker. He says only by the grace of God it requires a direct dispensation from heaven to become a Walker. You must be born into the family of walkers. What does he mean throw wrote? I think I cannot preserve my health and spirits, and let's say spent four hours a day at least and is commonly more than that sauntering through the wood and over the hills and fields absolutely free from all worldly engage. It's you continues. I confess that. I am astonished at the power of endurance. They nothing of the moral insensibility of my neighbors who confined themselves to shops and offices the whole day for weeks and months I in years almost together. I know now what men are stuff they are of sitting there now at three o'clock in the afternoon as if it were three o'clock in the morning. Frederick grope provides a little more insight into what throws getting at. He writes in the philosophy walking walking as they say, empties the mind. In another way, walking fills the mind with a different sense of purpose. Not connected with ideas or doctrine, not in the sense of a head full of phrases quotations theories. But full of the world's presence that presence which during the walk in successive strata has been deposited in the soul throughout the day. And when the evening comes one Harley needs to think, just breathe. Close your eyes and feel on your body the layers of landscape dissolving and re composing the color of the sky the flash of lease that outlined. Of the jumbled hills. I have been taking a lot of hikes while we've been living in Arizona. We were at Gweru national park last Saturday walked up a wash. In back for little over an hour. I took close to to our hike yesterday in the Phoenix mountain park. It is true when you walk and when I've walked for days in Yellowstone, you lay down just have images. Of things that were deposited throughout the day. The walk yesterday the poppies blooming on the hills. The cacti grow continues what he saw throw road he made his own. He meant through men that wants stores when walking vivid feelings and sunny memories are treasure are real property is the quantity of representations that we have taken in and conserved. Seems odd. All this time. And all we're going to do is walk. No. Throw says Moore every must walk like a camera, which is said to be the only bee's which ruminates when walking when a traveler ask Wordsworth servant to show him. Her master's study. She answered here's his library. But his study is out of doors. We need uninterrupted blocks of time. To think to get ideas. I'm surprised as I've hiked how many people have ear buds in. Probably listening to podcast or Spotify. How much time is interrupted by social media. I was at a restaurant. The other day we were eating. And there was a short break on. I don't know if I was waiting for food or whatever. And I have that twitch that there's a there's a moment of uninterrupted time. I need to grab my phone and fill it with some news that space. We get into these bad habits like that I have them. So structuring these uninterrupted blocks of time that just be. With our thoughts genome twins who's a professor psychology at San Diego State university wrote an article in the Atlantic titled have smartphones destroyed a generation she's been studying, lentils and other generations rights parenting styles continued to change as do school, curricula, and culture, and these things matter. But the twin rise of the smartphone and social media has caused an earthquake of a magnitude. We have not seen in a very long time. If ever there is compelling evidence that the devices we'd placed in young people's hands are having profound effects on their lives. And making them. Seriously, unhappy. The level of anxiety and depression among the young young generation just it's unheard of. She quotes the monitoring the future survey this is funded by the National Institute on drug abuse is designed to point out to be nationally Representative. So they've asked twelfth graders more than a thousand questions every year since nineteen seventy five. And they've asked eighth and tenth graders since nineteen Ninety-one. She writes the survey s teens how happy they are in also how much of their leisure time, they spent on various activities, including non screen activities. So just in person social interaction an exercise in recent years screen activities such as using social media texting and browsing the web, the results could not be clear teen to spend more time than average onscreen activities are more likely to be unhappy. And those who spend more time than average on non screen activities are more likely to be happy. We as adults need to monitor. I screen time. My oldest son texted me the other day. And he wrote thanks for letting me get bored. When I was younger at any attached in opinion piece by Pamela, Paul. In the New York Times, titled that children get bored. Again, Paul writes, once you truly settled into NS that has ties ING effects of boredom. You find yourself in route to the discovery. You let your mind wander and follow it where it goes. Of course, it's not really the boredom itself. That's important. It's what we do with it. When you reach your breaking point boredom teaches you to respond constructively to make something happen for yourself. But unless we are faced with a steady diet of stoltifying, boredom. We never learn how. The idea isn't that you suffer through crushing tedium in diff- indefinitely is that you learn how to vanquish it. This may come in several forms. You might turn inward and use the time to think you might reach for a book, you might imagine your way to a better job board and leads to flight of fantasy but ultimately to self discipline. To resourcefulness which brings us back to walking walking gives us that time that unstructured time to let her mind wonder and good ideas, and then follow up on them ideas that could be financially rewarding at some point. But we don't do it for profit. We'd do it for the benefit to live to be one way that I've been able to block out this uninterrupted time it's to batch when I do things I I'll batch reading Email. I don't I won't read it throughout the day. I just look at it a couple times during the day in the evening. I'll I subscribe to five or six newspapers. But I'll batch reading the news at screen time. I'll spend thirty to forty five minutes in the evening catching up on things. I need to for what I do for my job. Grow says that is why walking leads to a total loss of interest in. What is called laughingly? No doubt, the news one of whose main feature is that it becomes old as soon as it is uttered. Once caught in the rhythm throw says you are on the treadmill? You want to know what comes next? That's what social media news is. I mean are are. Our brains like that randomness of something happening. What's happening now? Sends the endorphins jumping we'd like that novelty. And so it takes work. To structure that interrupted block of time to not have that iphone twitch. That's why wealth as throw says isn't. What will bias that freedom that independence? It takes discipline to learn. To be bored. Throw wonders why is it? Say between four and five o'clock in the afternoon. He writes too late for the morning papers and too early for the evening ones. There is not a general explosion hurt up and down the street scattering a legion of antiquated and house bred notions. And whims to the four winds for an airing. In other words back in his day. When there was no news from the morning to the evening. Why aren't people out walking? As opposed to sitting at their desk. But the idea is not to be a hermit thorough was not a hermit. He lived at the edge of the village. But he was a thirty minute walk back to to where his friends and family. Were Henry sidled can be wrote in nineteen thirty nine that throw was never hermit except when snow shut him in or heavy rain or his own absorption in work to go. And see Henry throw was a concord. Recreation historian, Robert Santa Meyer wrote the rose 'isolation was a virtual in an imaginative rather than actual one. What in pond was not insured, either a retired or a pristine place. In fact, one could hardly have chosen a more visible and public spot to retire to. Raymond Adams said the hermit of Walden was very public hermit. Maynard right Walden. The book throw makes no attempt to deny his proximity to town, which he strode every day or two he lives on the very edge in order to see. It's foibles more clearly fleeing to the woods to better understand civilization in the manner of the ancient philosophers, and frankly to get away from his noisy family home. So he could write and think to structure that interrupted blocks of time those are the three financial lessons from throw to calculate the cost of what we do what we buy in terms of the life. It's gonna take how much time is it gonna take to earn that money or how much time is being wasted pursuing that activity compared to the benefit. To is. We cannot afford not to live in the present. Stop worrying about the future and focus more on the present used some of those. Techniques. Breathing techniques of Buddhism. And three to walk scheduled uninterrupted blocks of time. Each day to just think maybe we're out walking. Maybe we're or biking, but we're not. Being interrupted. By others were just being and using that time to create the think and to better ourselves. That's upset to forty. You can get show nuts up money for the rest of us dot com, all the links that I've shared you can find their way there. Please sign up for my free insider's guide just make it easy for you Email those links each week along with the an essay things that didn't make it into the podcast that week some of the best writing I do each week that's money for the rest of us dot com. Everything shared with you in this episode. It's been for general education. I haven't considered your specific risk situation haven't provided investment advice, simply general education on money. Investing in the Konami have a great week.
Ep. 281 - Sustainable Recreation & Plant Conservation
"The like more infants of plants each month. Well, you're in luck in defensive plants is now offering bonus mini episodes over at our Patriot page to find out how you can gain access to this bonus botanical content head on over Patriot, dot com slash in defensive plants, and consider becoming a patron and as always thank you for your continued support of independent plans. Together, we are helping care plant around the world one episode at a time. Hello everyone and welcome to the indefens- plans podcast official PODCAST OF INOFFENSIVE PLANTS DOT COM. What's up? This is your host Matt Welcome to the show. How's everyone doing this week? Today's episode presents a unique conundrum for everyone as we become increasingly disconnected from natural spaces, it is more important than ever to get people outside NC nature for the beauty and wonder that contains but we must do this in an intelligent way in a way that's not going to hurt nature in the process and. That's what our topic of discussion is all about the mountains are located in western North Carolina, and they are home to some amazing plant communities, many of which are housing. Some extremely rare species that are found nowhere else in the world back in the seventies the nature conservancy identified many parts of them as natural heritage sites and protected many of the peaks of the infiltrate mountains to ensure that these plant communities all of the ecology that they sustain can be preserved well into the future. But the health and wellbeing of these plant communities is coming under threat and it's not from a mind. It's not from logging. It's actually from a trail that's being proposed. An outdoor recreation group is trying to install a trail system that will link many of these peaks. The sounds good in theory, but the problem with this trail is that it's sacrificing a lot of the natural history that makes this area special just to get a couple of good views in the process. In fact many of these trails will completely destroy some of these rare plant communities. If it's to go through joining us to talk about this is Dr Matt Eastep he's an associate professor at Appalachian State University and he specializes in the conservation genetics of rare plants. So not only is Dr East passionate about preserving the environment. He truly understands the threats that come when you destroy unique species in unique habitats especially when they're isolated up on the top of mountain. Peaks, but no amount of brief overview can do this topic. Any justice I wanNA just jump right into it because I think this is a really important conversation for people to hear. We can actually love things to death and we don't want to do that especially because outdoor recreation should be the most sustainable thing we attempt to do as a modern society. So let's just jump right into it without further ado. Here's my conversation with Dr Eastep I. Hope You enjoy. All Right Dr Matt. EASTEP. Thank you so much for coming on the PODCAST. How about we start off by telling everyone a little bit about who you are and what it is you do. Thank you very much taking the time to talk with me today I am a a recently tenured professor at alleged State University I know on superstock to have made it through the Gauntlet I am a plant geneticist by trainy. Graduated the University of Georgia in the plant biology program in two, thousand and ten. Prior, to that I was actually an undergraduate and a Master's student at Appalachian State University, which is where I finally ended up coming back to do my work is. Nice Full Circle NY research group has Started out broadly in the discipline of plant genetics and over the last five years of really focused down into the conservation genetics has been probably the place where we feel like we have the greatest impact. Yeah, we w whole litany of their plans that girl in these high elevation outcrops throughout the southern Appalachians that's excellent and where did this all really begin with you. I mean, were you a kid going like I wanna be a geneticist growing up? Wasn't more like I love nature and I can find a way to kind of work in this I'd be happy and all the academic stuff just kind of fell into place. Yeah No I. I hear you there. So I I was out during doozy a backpack or a hiker, my parents they raised me well in the sense that they took us the national parks all over the country. They really taught us to love the beauty of the natural world. So when I was in high school when I graduated I hopped on the Appalachian trail in Georgia and got spend that summer hiking along the trail. I then went home before obviously before completion of the trail and went off to college that didn't work out. So Great. The first time around I was at Wvu and I had a really good time but I did not do well scholastically So then I took a break and. Worked for while to pay my dad back for all the money that is spent. and. Then I went hiking again how back on the Appalachian? Trail and Ended up in Boone North Carolina. We are probably twenty minute drive from the Appalachian, trail crosses Roan Mountain and moves through. Around August leg in over Tuba Damascus Virginia and so. I was in that vicinity and was coming down to visit people of my age and and I just fell in love with the place and so ended up going to school there. Wow. That's cool. It's refreshing to hear someone you know cop to the fact especially someone in your position who's now a tenured professor. Early days were young right we we do things that might not end up academically scholastically. A good for us but you live you learn and it's good that you realize that took a step back and take the time to find where you thought you better fitted. You know kind of finding yourself and I think. That resonates with a lot of people because oftentimes I get students that are like will if I don't do good at this one class of my career is over and he like it's okay calm. I, one hundred percent agree in in my time on the Appalachian trail was really. It was that process of discovery finding myself in where I felt like I fitted right auto. So yeah, really. Yeah. So I did an undergraduate degree at Appalachian and I was one hundred percent thug on reptiles amphibians I did not think very much plants at the time. I I really spend been a lotta time running around the woods catching critters around the time of. Graduation I I got pulled into a lab to do some genetics word on Scorpions to be honest and do my degree on Scorpion filing in indies and Process I I I was introduced to planes I fell in love with them and and kind of in a plant person ever since. Okay. Yeah I know it's Zilly right? You go from Scorpions and rattlesnakes plant A. Sure through your education, you learn stuff right so I learned a lot about evolution and I found that the plane's just seem to do it better than anybody else the as sexual reproduction is just phenomenal the ability to withstand. Stuck in place not being mobile I think is is pretty impressive. To be honest when I learned more more about poly bloody in the influence of a whole genome duplications on plant diversification I. I was sold I mean just honestly I was sold on the idea. One of my very favorite plants is a genus called syndrome. You know. Oh. Yeah. Big Big special place in my heart for the dissenters dirtbags. When I was introduced to that by a good friend of mine. Numb. It was introduced me as employees series where you have a diploid adjudged employed an an octopus Lloyd, and so you know bleeding hearts is the die. Centra ECZEMA is the is the actual diploid. It's rare in North Carolina but common not places with a gall Dutchman's bridges of the common name is di. centric you'll area that's the Jesuit and then the third. Species with a goal, squirrel corn and the White Aryan that that's a octopus Lloyd. That's that that that forty series it engaged me it made me really a got excited about what planes were doing and and yeah I went from there after joined the Peace Corps and I went to the Philippines. This was right around this time of nine eleven. The president called. Able to volunteer in Muslim countries, and so I joined up and tried to go to the Philippines to the Southern Island Mindanao ended up not spending much time in Mindanao because of some unrest but I did a bunch of coral reef conservation. My was in the Beast Gordon. I enjoyed that quite a bit. One of the things I learned was that conservation is a heartbreaking discipline and if people are starving bear, not really worried about the biodiversity in their region and so from there, I went to the University of Georgia and joined a genetics lab to study agricultural genetics thinking that if you could feed the people, you could they maybe preserve some of that biodiversity that we love so much. What projector? You get into Scorpions. Then he realized Scorpions. Cool enough. You get into plants because of Poiti and then you work on coral for a little bit. Then you get into egg this it's amazing. How kind of? Broad, your career spectrum been in of chasing the dream of working in nature and being around nature really I mean, that's the goal for any nature No matter what system you end up in is to just be immersed in it try to add your little bit to it whatever that may mean for you. But I think you just answered a long standing sort of question that's always been haunting me in the back of my head. Is the Centra the pointy levels I sometimes will cease grow corn in at least Dutchman's bridges co-occuring together and I was like you can get a lot of hybrids in a lot of other plants but I never see hybridization have never heard of it. So maybe could have to do with the lack of matching up thanks to that pointy whether that's true or not whatever. But that's an interesting. I never knew that's what kind of separated the two. What did have you ever heard of the soldiers work on recurrent polly bloody. Yet does at, there's like Ferns, right? Some firms do that. They demonstrated Enga- lacks they've? Demonstrated in something called Tetra pogue on the is that when we see a tetraplegic floyd were not always certain that that was formed one time it could have been formed multiple times mean recurring formation of that new tax. Alright. So sometimes, in botany, we have a hard time defining a species is being just diploid diploid the judge we have inside with type discussions and. In the case of this one, the morphological variations with the series are so distinct that they've all gotten their own names but we don't yet know whether those things were formed once or they were form multiple times and so the idea of hybridization that is really where I was standing at the bottom of a bobby relation of Juju area and seeing up in there a small patch of the squirrel corn that just suggested to me that where did that come from I mean is that a novel formation of that OP deployed? Those are just GonNa questions I think about sometimes. We my lab group has developed a set of markers. Genetic Markers of hopefully will allow us to go investigate some of that. It's hard to get funding study die century but. I I keep working direction and sooner, or later I'll all the better be able to execute. Lau that's really exciting and of course, that sounds like a nice future episode but it definitely reminds me, I, took an evolution seminar from an ornithologist us. One of the best professors I ever had Dr Tom Waited the Suny Buffalo state but I would always bring plant examples into the classes. Knock it off plants can do whatever they want. They can make a new species overnight but I think what you just kinda describe there as proof of his ordinariness to the world body and it was all in fun and Games. But yeah, he he didn't like US bringing plans as examples in because they just complicated the thought of evolution. Well. It's very dry bread. But it's easy to see why you fell in love with them and why this has become really the focus of your interests both for passion purposes. But also for career purposes were I'm sure they overlap plenty you mentioned. Sort of rare species in high location communities, and this is a good segue for a really while you're on today I mean we can cover a lot of your research again in another episode. But today we're talking about specifically highlighted Asian communities of rare plants and why they might be sort of. A threat for different things which will get into. What is special really about these high elevation communities I've often heard in class as sort of mountaintops are the islands of the land right and so that can breed a lot of unique community is a lot of rare things right there that all kind of comes together in these these mountain top communities whether that's plants, insects, animals, you name it. Yet now. The mountaintop music called sky? Islands. On occasion the unique features here are that through the process of climate change we know that organisms migrate up and down in elevation as well as in latitude and after the last glacial Maxima as the glaciers retreated many plants decided to move up in elevation rather than north, and so they got up to the tops of these mountains and then they got stuck. So, they can't really go anywhere now there I'm just sitting in the peaks. They're isolated from one another. So they tend to be walking their own distinct path that makes sense. Genetic drift takes a hold and and they start kind of moving. Austin. In different directions and we feel like a lot of local adaptation is occurring so that the of these plants are deciding that, hey, on this particular rock outcrop, we're GONNA get this way and maybe on a different rock outcrop, a might choose a slightly different path. So, hypothetically speaking I'm GonNa Vastly oversimplify this, but you could save there was like gay lacks growing on different mountaintops you could go and sample the DNA of those different populations and there's a good chance at least you could hypothesize that each of those populations on each mountaintop then since they would be isolated to some degree would have their own sorta unique genomes unique like you said, adaptations to local regional SORTA climate zones, micro climates, stuff correct. Absolutely yeah and we see this over and over and over again he's not just one plane but. If you think about these plant communities are groups of different plants and we see all of them laying out his role and again, and again where they they get stuck on the tops of the of the outcrops an and and don't really have the ability to interact with their rest of their species that makes sense. Yeah. No that makes sense we build A. Dish junk try. So a lot of these these species they have a sister tax that's up north somewhere in Canada. The northern parts of the United States sometimes, we call them the same species and sometimes we call them distinct species and it really depends on you know what botanist has been looking at it and how much research has been done looking at genetic diversity. And you know my lab focused on using genetics as a mechanism to measure biodiversity It's it's relatively straightforward process. Nowadays, I mean there is quite a bit of labor in terms of DNA extraction fieldwork but. Once, you've got the DNA, running genetic markers and trying to assess the amount diversity president isn't really terribly difficult to do. That's good i. mean at least if you're willing to put in the LEGWORK, go a lot of really important questions can be answered but in thinking about this for more of a conservation standpoint. It stands to reason that these isolated populations whether they're considered distinct species or just disjuncture of larger species distribution. Regardless of what you consider them. These communities are special the fragile like you said, they're stuck up there. They don't have anywhere to go. It's not like they can escape back down the mountain and compete with forest another Eko tones that they don't naturally occur in and so disturbance on the top of a mountain per se you know if it's a ball, the area that's heavily recreated or something like that can have huge consequences for biodiversity. Correct. Oh absolutely. It's. So we look at that. We started thinking about their isolated up there. They don't have anywhere to go and then they're not used to having you know people running around on top of those mountain. They've very difficult to get too many aces and so they've been protected because of their isolation innocence and as we develop more and more of the southern Appalachians. You know recreational ideas for a housing or you know golf courses and country clubs a those particular sites are the places that people want to be they wanNA. Stand on top of a mountain and look out at that great view Shit, and so there's a conflict that's a raisin between able that want to conserve those habitats and people that want to exploit them for monetary reasons right? Right and that's it's it's always a delicate balance. I. Respect. The need to kind of think about exposing people to these getting people up there just to see it. On the past I've had my friend Kayla white on here. She's a summit Stewart in the index and it's Really delicate balance and it's almost like they have to kind of concentrate impact in one area to protect a lot of other areas from just constantly getting overrun. But this idea that even something as seemingly innocuous as recreation could be the downfall of individual species all the way up to ecosystems habitats in general is something that might not readily. Can you think of hiking is like this great outdoor activity that has very little impact on the world but Mean where I come from, it can have serious impacts on the world which we can get into as we talk about examples here. But that's kind of way we connected today to talk is there is there's plans for a set of mountaintops where you're where you're at. Yeah, I live in northwestern North Carolina and there's a series of mountains that are referred you as the embittered light mountains They are a geologic feature that creates really distinct soil type and because of that soil tied, they're they're considered a biodiversity hotspot. There's more diverse air than there is anywhere in the surrounding areas that make sense. And what is it? What is the soil type I? Mean what? What makes it unique for the area? I Apologize. So with a merger has in. Filat. So embiid lights is is the name of the mountains in India blood. The actual rock type is a metamorphosed rock. It was laid down a very long time ago it is it just caps the mountains and so it's just a single layer that sits on top of the mountains. Everything else has gone a road away at this point ask those rocks erode they produce a soil type that is Kinda Ph neutral. In in the southern Appalachians, we generally have an acidic soil and so this shift in Ph is enough to change what plants live in a particular area and an access kind of a refuge for certain things in this area wile, and of course, we could spend hours talking about what you find up there. But what are some of the interesting plant species that you would expect to see elsewhere in the surrounding area that you do find up on top of these mountains? So some of the ones that my group has been working with a GM radiator, this is known as spreading. Evans. Is a federally listed species that has slowly been extirpated for many of its natural sites. There's another species called light risk, Heller Hellers, blazing stars beautiful up above those planes beautiful. All plants with beautiful what my say. Nitrous hell, rise, another nation rock outcrops, specialists workers in many of these sites What else? There's another plant named GM Jimmy. Latam. which is a closely related Jim radiating, but it's in the same genus but but they're not sister tax are they they are distinct and in many ways join anything other texts or gray's lily is a big one for our area and so that that is a special lilies species that occurs. I argue it's endemic to North Carolina but it does bleed up into Virginia and a little bit over into Tennessee but I really claim it as a North Carolinian. Demi. Fair people can me about it if they want Yeah. So lots of of of taxes that sit up on those site. Some of are are are less charismatic. There are grasses incentives that are unique, but that's a little bit more difficult selling point because they're they're not as pretty. Yeah I mean it's one thing I've really learned in doing this for as many years as I have is the pretty ones definitely speak a little bit louder to the general public or at least the sensibilities of most not to denigrate such is and grasses I. Love Them, I myself terrible at identifying them but I understand they're very important and I want to do everything in my power to protect them. No, I'm terrible at identifying them, but I do big. They are valuable. I don't like grasslands do so I have kind of two areas that I to play in in those those allocation rock outcrops in. Grasslands of the southeast man that's why we have the dynasties of the world. Yes, the breeder I I'd or him he is amazing Amazing. Man really breast is work indeed but yet I mean the reason we connected again was because the infiltrates need some attention and they're getting attention in a way that might not be so good for these unique plant communities. Do you care to outline the scenario that's playing out? As as it stands right now and we can go into more detail as as we as we progress your. User so back in the nineteen? Seventies eighties I was not present. So I don't have firsthand knowledge for this. But the Nature Conservancy developed a kind of hierarchy of biodiversity hotspots within the state, of North, Carolina and they identified the ambivalent mountains as being one of the Rangers that they wanted to protect. The dignity wanted to predict those species that are g one G to the ones that are going to be extirpated relatively soon, be lost to the future. So they began a process of purchasing a whole series of these mountaintops. They purchased Bluff Mountain Phoenix. Mountain the tops of these mounds of but I mean to say three top mountain, the peak they facilitated. Quite a few purchases of just large chunks of land, and always the focus was on those holiday nation rock outcrop communities not so much on particular species but the community itself the community needs to be kinda whole function properly if we go in and disturb portions of that community than than other portions of it will suffer. So hydrology is a really big deal when you're up on this sites and so they protected all these properties a neighbor generally speaking I'd network of preserves in they dedicated all of these as a preserves of places do reserve those rare plants, Rabobank communities, and kind of keep them into the future. They. Then I assume for tax purposes, donated portions of those properties to the state whether it was the big was donated to elk knob state art through giap was donated to live Resource Commission for game lands for hunting in in that. And then other properties they held onto themselves alike, Bluff Mountain in Phoenix I believe they still hold those those properties is they they are unwilling to elect dope. And so through that process, they built a beautiful network of preserves project, some of these amphibian lights and something in the late two thousands I want to say do southbound eight or nine a group of people here in in Boone decided that those were unexploited resources that used to make money and the idea was tourism. They wanted to develop a trail system to attract more tourists to the area and You know that simmered for many years almost a decade to be honest and from what I can tell from talking to conservation groups around the state. No, no one really heard much about it and then in two, thousand, seventeen, the. County Board of Tourism funded a small company here in town called destination by designed to develop a feasibility analysis for this trail and basically try and present an idea of how we could execute such thing that roll out by destination by design was I would argue exceptionally disappointing they used the idea that it was about diversity hotspot as a selling point and they talked about wanting to educate the bubbly. But then their plan actually ran from one rare habitat to the next, and there was no discussion of you know let's bypass these places that we want to take care of. Instead it was like right through the middle. Of it and I think the catch twenty two here is if you're going to develop a trail to increase tourism, you need you shits you need blazes for the people want WanNa to come and see and take pictures and send their friends doing courage other people to come and the locations in the invisible eggs that could provide view sheds are also the places that house these rare plant communities, and so this is where the conflict is. It's you know how do we build a trail that is sustainable allowing public access to these beautiful properties while still protecting those rare plant communities that sit on top of those rock outcrops. And I I just feel like they are not exactly being forthcoming with what they're trying to do They're talking about in their plan they're gonNA educate and it's outdoor laboratory and they make it sound like it's conservation voters. But then the plan to run through these rare habitats, and I, don't mean just sort in Europe I mean run right through the middle of them is just so counter to that argument that disconnect is difficult for me as a conservationist to swallow, and so I believe that the the community in Boone North Carolina and the surrounding area are interested in sustainability and they're interested in getting outdoors and seeing things, and so I was hoping that by talking to you we could eliminate. Some of the conflicts that maybe aren't being spoken about in the general public I feel like the northern peaks trail kind of feasability study was more of an advertising campaign than a feasibility study I look at those numbers and I just don't buy their arguing that it's going to bring two and a half million dollars a year into the area. Okay. they argue they're only going to cost four million dollars to build the trail. I don't think so. I think it's GonNa cost quite a bit more in two thousand seventeen when they came out with their blame, they got a little bit of pushback from people like myself and other survey. They very quickly ducked covered and ran down to the legislator and got put in as a state trail without really any conversation with the public in. So by putting it into the legislation, they've made it a political football and now I feel like we have this kind of legislation top down approach to building this trail rather than a community that's deciding they want to embrace this this location and go and explorer and just. Seems more about money than it is about conservation at this point and I want my friends in boon to understand that if they put together a reasonable plan a is visible. I. Mean There's lots of land there. That isn't a rare Habita- that they could you know facilitated trail but the plan that they've laid out is is so opposite of what they are saying that I it's like the doublespeak is really on a beer dating. Yeah and this is understandably difficult position to be in I at no point when to put across this idea that you know myself and I'm sure you are the same way that you want to stop these sorts of things from happening we need people to get outside. We need people interacting with nature seeing cool stuff appreciating stuff because you know we're getting farther and farther away from that as a society, but it sounds to me. Like what's going on here is you have a group that has one idea that they figured out like you know it's like grant speak you know how to say the right jargon the right words to get the the the supporting the money you want it sounds like you know this idea of tourism hiking was the first and foremost, and they found different ways that you can use words those buzzwords kind of connect to a weather they meant it or not, and you know having interacted with a lot of outdoor groups knowing people that are. In charge of trail building have done. Trail building work is the first thing that they generally do when they want it to be good for everyone or at least as most people as possible is to talk to the conservationists to talk to the colleges to say, okay, we want to do this but we don't WanNa hurt anything and that should be where the start is but it doesn't sound like that was ever a consideration other than, hey, we just want to be able to get these these points. So we can check off you know these. You said scrapes or view sheds just a habit. And that to me it's tough. That's why. I used to do hiking kind of like, oh. Let's get anyone we know go hiking and I've realized there's a huge disconnect in the hiking community and that's fine. I mean whatever you're interested in whatever gets you outside him. I'm not denigrating it but there is a huge difference between just one eight a crush miles and have that view and then. Appreciating nature at the same time there's there's often a disconnect there where it's people running ahead just to get to that peak versus the rest of us that are like poking through looking at little things looking at you know that sort of thing. I think the general public is what we are virtuous plant blind and meaning that they. They're out nature they're joining it they love it but they don't really see the diversity of plants that are around them. They see the oak trees in the maple trees but some of the herbs and other things I just passed right by don't even notice them going back to our conversation of brass's amine embracing grass diversity is amazing in. So. Many of his even well trained botanists aren't always very good at grass identification Ryan or or yeah yeah. Not Working in the discipline based in this area when they came out with that plan in seventeen. I. Came out of left field It never really heard about it before and they did the public roll out here in Boone before they went and spoke to any of the conservation agencies. by the time, they got down to the conservation agencies they had heard about it coming in. So they they were more prepared to deal with it but. It it really. Really strong disconnect between their plan conservation and I understand the getting outdoors and seeing stuff is important part I. Mean I am a product of hiking backpacking background and I am now a conservation. So there is an intrinsic link ear, but I'm just not sure that they're they're they're thinking broadly with his execution they're really looking Ed. How do we make money? How do we exploit what we have? Instead of you know how can we work to develop something where we can build that next generation of conservations Jimmy? We can educate the bright we could. Do a lot more than what I see the right. Now, the plane is the trail and I have been a pretty strong opponents since it came out in two thousand seventeen and I had been arguing for education Hauer, unity build an Education Glenn around the strodes like educate the public about where they're going what kind of enforcement do we have about people that go off trail, which is the real threat here you might build a trail and run it. You know away from those rock outcrops, but we all know about these things revert to. His social trails where a group of hikers were going through. Annoy. Hey Look at that rock. Let's go there and they'll bust off trail and go to that raw in many times that might be okay. But the in these mountains in these locations in the ambivalence, they're going to walk into a rare plant community and just their presence is going to impact it in a way that is at damage cannot be undone. Grain I I, read I'm being an advocate here I've gone back and read all of the dedication documents or the various plant preserves. That were constructed or sorry they were a nature preserves not playing reserves in every single. One of those documents lays out very clearly that the higher elevations, rock outcrop communities or why they were purchased and what they're trying to predict, and all of them specifically address trail construction in the idea that people would want to move through the Montreal's and so I if I feel like destination by designed just didn't do their homework or if they did do her homework, they ignored the facts and decided that they wanted to trail that ran those peaks instead. Right. And the tough part here is kind of conveying. The idea that you know again hiking is thought of his this very noxious, very green getting back to the outdoors sort of low impact activity, and in many ways, it can be if it's done right if it's done sustainably, which again were reiterating the fact here that this is not something who tried to stop our. It just needs better planning but. I've seen time and time again the impact that hiking can have on rare plant communities or any sort of habitat win the habitat itself is secondary or not even considered in this process, and like you said, even just walking out onto some of these rock outcrop communities damage them irreparably or if it damages them any point through a recovery is decades off and that's you know if they stop taking which they're not going to, and that's kind of a hard pill to swallow for a lot of people that outdoor recreation when done incorrectly or when done selfishly can be very bad for the environment can ruin these communities and you know I just said in a public meeting. For, the teams buckwheat to try and protect it from mining operations, and one of the things that kept coming up is even just the exploratory road-building trail building in to go and get to these areas is disturbing soils introducing invasive species. It's making a corridor for other things to move in which in and of itself could irreparably damage the place. Even before the you know the full activity gets underway, and so this is the of point you're trying to make your rate is that to just do this without you know with the thought that like taking, it's not that bad it that's really flawed and kind of ignored his Wi- these plant communities are so sensitive in the first place. They often refer to hiking passive recreation and it can be when done Ri-, but we have a whole series of examples here in the southern appalachians where it's not been done. Right. The Blue Ridge Parkway has place called Greg Gardens, and if you go there the the species that are on that highly Asian rock outcrop are are being beaten to death We could say the same about a location called Rough Ridge right outside of boom, most of the freshman at Appalachian Goto. Rough. Ridge to get that. Beautiful. View off the escarpment down towards Charlotte and in the process, they accidentally step on a lot of rare planes when they go off trail. Yeah. It's not really nice. Now, another one Lyngdoh Gorge is a wilderness area and and we have trails have been constructed but they go right through the middle of some of these rare plant habits ads and I can't tell you how many times I've been to those rare plant communities and there's somebody camping right in the middle of the population and they're like, let's beautiful flowers. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh. There is a place where it's been done right and I'd like to highlight that Yoga Roan. Mount. The southern Appalachian Highland Conservancy? This is a nonprofit organization run out of Asheville as set up a stewardship council and they have over the last twenty years turned Roan Mountain around twenty years ago it was being slowly but surely destroyed through recreation and human activities But through southern Appalachians, conservancies efforts, we see that place is just more and more beautiful. Every time we go, they worked very, very hard to develop educational programs they've got A. Ridge runner program in the summertime to get you know college age students out to try and educate the public about the intense Aaron they they're doing a bunch with Americorps trying to get a volunteers to come in and spend time you know digging through data sets compiling that information into educational resources I'm really very very impressed with how southern Appalachian highly conservancy has worked to not only protect but open up the room to the ability for recreation. And and I think it's a success story that we should all be looking towards gay. How did they do it? Let's try an implement some of those things hearing the invisible light mounts. I think right now it's like you got the two side black and white The conservations are saying no, the trail people are saying we must we need to meet somewhere in the middle and I'm I'm really trying to find those solutions. I. Think. Rowden. I, think the Stewardship Council there has some boom and I would like to see something like that implemented in the ambivalence to help make this process a lot more transparent because moment everything's happening behind closed doors it's not really cool. One of the reasons I out to you this last couple of weeks ago was because the the ELK Knob State Park Master Plan just was released. So, health knob state park is a park within the NFIB. Light Range. It contains the peak, which is a mountain that the Nature Conservancy purchased for protection and then gave to the state and That plan is centrally focused on the northern peak stream. It seems like as they went through the process I was there for many of the meetings and I was asking questions the entire time they give saying, no, no, this is the parks master plan not the trail, the parks master plan not the trails when that thing came out two weeks ago it's all about the trail I mean every single facet of it really is about connecting to that trail and I think there's some doublespeak happening where the state park system wants to develop recreation I think that's a good thing but this state trail that they could together it's not a state park it gets none of the resources of a state park. He doesn't get the protections of a State Park. I. Yeah. It's just kind of sorry. I go off on tangents. No, and that's a good point to be made here is when you think about how this like these protections early, the education component of it that you're talking about, that could be a nice middle ground there is like, yeah. Okay. We would love to see that happen. What would that look like where would that money come from to support those efforts? It would come from sort of the State Park style funding efforts, not just a friends of trail sorta community there again, not denigrating at but. Yeah, there are models of success I mean I've seen Roan Mountain into think of what it could have looked like a you know Kinda kept on its trajectory is really tragic because like you said today, it's gorgeous. It's amazing what they have going on up there again, to get another shadow to my friend Kayla with their summit Stewart Program in the index part of their education is going in showing tourists and hikers what know why these trails are no longer in place. What kind of research is being done like okay look how long this has been off limits look how long it's taking these plant communities to recover if this didn't happen in. The first place we wouldn't have had to do this. You know there's there's ways of doing this and I'm really happy said this like black and white versus Nice Gray area, the middle there are concessions that can be made on both sides. There's ways to make this happen. It's not this is no we're not in my backyard not allowing this to happen, but some sort of conversation needs to happen because it's very obvious that it really hasn't at this point and like you said, the sort of doublespeak of what happens in the public space with all these nice words all this nice jargon, the promise of money that sort of stuff. But then. Okay why are you being so weird behind closed doors about it if you're so open to these ideas? Yeah, exactly. The the original plane came out of you know the which Aga Board of tourism in. So we know it's monetary. But really in the past year, it's shifted over to maybe the major player is the Blue Ridge. Conservancy, and this is a local NGO that is working to conserve properties all over our area and they are doing and tastic were things like the middle fork greenway that they're putting together. Many. Many many people will be able to use and enjoy that the access points they're developing along the new river nearby to allow people to go out and canoe and fish are fantastic and and I have a great deal of faith in the Blue Ridge conservancies ability to pull off this trail I think they can do it but I think they need to put some things in place and I've been in I to Jarl Brady they're gonNA Director and I've express these opinions and and he was Bathos offline listened to me and essentially his response was Yep. Yeah. Yeah. That stuff's all important and We'll get to that later and I'm I'm going to push back a little bit on Charlie say now Charlie, we need the educational plan up front we need the standing or or the commitment to avoid those rare plant habitats upfront. Before we agree to the drill, we need to know that you're not gonNa make those compromises that you're going to choose the biodiversity over the view. Shit does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Big Time N. kind of circling back to where we started with this conversation these these plant communities, it's not like they have a place to go. It's not like there's going to be. Populations elsewhere you I mean that can kind of come back in. this was a little spot in a larger distribution. It would be one thing but because they are these habitat. Sky Islands. That's it right and so when they start to get knocked back I, mean this idea that you could join just oh, would will restore it or will move some of the plants you know again i. was just sitting in on this team's buckwheat public meeting, and one of the big plans was to transplant these plans like, oh, we'll just move them and. We met Sept Con. We've heard everyone talk about these translocation experiments in how most of the time they fail which sucks I mean not that you shouldn't try to do that sort of stuff, but it should not be the first option on the table. You just can't do that with especially plants that are growing really specific habitat types like rock outcrops you're going GONNA use them. That is a very good point. In early, in the conversation I talked to the head of destination by design and I said, what are you thinking? You can't do this those plant communities matter in his response was we'll move. And and that's where you know. You're happy will stand up in and you realize that it's not about conservation is not about. That trail that they put together is about view sheds and money, and I don't think that reflects the values of boom or West Jefferson or or the western part of North Carolina. I think you're my university is all about sustainability. So how can we go from a community that exemplifies sustainability to a trail that isn't even remotely sustainable I that is really hard. It reminds me of working along Lake Erie Lake Ontario. The shore is the riparian areas along there and especially the Niagara. Gorge where these people will you know would call us and say, Hey, I'm losing my Stream Bank I'm losing my shoreline here. Why is it all eroding away? you go out there and it's like force for us for US big blank spot with law enforced force it like, oh we'll. Those trees were in my view. Can't have your cake and eat it too. At some point. Something's gotTa give here and you know I unfortunately see it in places like the Blue Ridge Parkway where you'll have this beautiful vista like wait a minute. What how did this get here? Oh, they chopped down literally every tree that was in the way of this poll off This seems so counter to why were out here why we're doing this in the first place and get it views are important I, love standing on top of a mountain overlooking at. It's there's no other feeling in the world quite like that. But at the same time like I'm out nature I want enjoy nature I WANNA protect nature not destroy just. I. Can see in the distance. And I think it's possible to do both I really do you know I'm an avid hiker? I'm probably out hike in mountains couple times a week year, round I I like to hike mountains of January and February as well as you know in July and August some of my favorite hikes are are mainly hikes in the winter months when the trees down Nice as once the leaves come down, you can walk on a full owner through these mountains and you don't need a flashlight. Is it can be quite fantastic and I. I want people to explore that and I want people to experience it to fall in love with the way I love it but I just feel like this plan is is just not voting as in a position where we can do that it's more of an extra patient plan than than a conservation plan. So I guess really the point here is if people are getting fired up about this or WanNa do something about I mean, what is the next step to make sure that this is maybe not stopped but at least done in a way that's more sustainable that's that's putting biodiversity conservation at the forefront I mean, how can people get involved or start thinking about this in a way that might make it a better project for everyone overall. So I, I go to that stewardship. Council, that we see at Roan Mountain and I say we should implement something like that. Therefore, it's transparent and we can bring together managers from the state parks from the game lands from the blank conservation programs we can bring together the local hiker enthusiasts. We can bring together everybody into one room and we can talk our way through these things when we can make decisions together rather than behind closed doors being forced down our throats. I would really like to see an educational plan. If you go look at the destination by design thing they talk about technology and how we could use that for education in, and then they go on to say that people could take pictures us what are those things in tweet the Hashtags, and they can use hashtags to show people where they all. That's the extent of their Educational Glen. I I. Don't I don't see it. You know we have world experts in biodiversity within the state couldn't they I the trail and we could record what they have to say about it. We could play that two people you know they download an APP and and use that as a way to have a self guided tour by world's experts. I- naturalist is an a a kind of a new phenomena, but this is a unique way to weaken game of five about biodiversity. Right we could have kids go out there swift their APPs they could take pictures of plants and animals or whatever they find us I- naturalist help my densify. What it is would could use I- naturalist catalog would they have found so that at acts as a conservation word for us but at the same time in educational capone for the students and figure out a way to give them badges or or rewards of some kind as they reach different levels of understanding about that biodiversity. I really think that if we're going to do it, we should develop some sort of K. through twelve documentary where we explain what makes the VIBE light. So unique here's one of the things that irks me about this trip. We all know this is referred to as the light mountains invisible I. Don't think it's very difficult words day most like five year old kids can say amphibian data. Why can't they say inviable lay but they changed the drill name to the northern peak trail because they wanted to conjure up images of conquering mountains and I don't know they take away from the educational component to make it more attractive to. Tourists and I think that educational matters but there is unique geology here. There's a climate history in terms of glaciation on glaciation looking back over history better understand why these places are so unique we can look at the biogeography of some of those plants and animals that are there and explain why they're unique and I think that educational support is critical to the success of conservation if you don't educate people. They're just going to go out look of you shed Zimbabwe and they're not gonNA learn really much of anything other than it is a pretty place to live, and it is indeed a pretty place to live. Yet I mean even just sign it. You know I look at some of the spots that I like to go in and thinking about what you can do just like a trail head just to say like here's a picture of some of this rare stuff. Here's some information you know each east I'm guessing these are a little like pearls on a string, these peaks you could have. Different signs at different spots even I mean that's just the simplest thing because oftentimes I find that it's not that people are integris towards it or don't WanNa know or just to have no interest it's they just don't know it's there and so a picture of GM and saying like, Hey, here's a really rare plan. Here's why it's rare. Keep an eye out for it. You Know I. Even, a subset of those people golly, Ha that's cool. Let's go look any mean and maybe paying a little bit more attention to where they're putting their feet maybe not scrambling over rocks and pulling things off just to get to the best viewpoint in others very even little things that can be done to to improve the educational component of this rather than make it just about crushing miles and Dagon peaks. Bagging scary but okay. So they have kiosks in their in their plan, but they don't explain what the kiosks will will will present an or although presented or who will help develop that content, and so that's part of the transparency thing that I'm talking about is that we we could have a conversation here at Appalachian State. University. We have a fairly large biology program I. All series of faculty members. We develop a lot of very interesting things to help support this. Drill in the conservation efforts I mean I could imagine having a class where we drank biologists in conservation application by having walk this drill and showing them some of those unique communities and showing them some of the impacts that people have accidentally on those plant communities. But I'M GONNA push a little bit harder and say that we need to have some enforcement. We need to have some sort of regulation in place for those people who refused bay engine to the signs. You know with these rock outcrops are beautiful places to go rock climbing or Bulgar Ring, and there is a community in boone. If you go to Lane Bill Gorge or along the Ridge Parkway, there's tons of signs that say this is closed area. These are rare plants you don't need to be here and they are still heavily used, and so if we're going to develop something like that in, you visualize rather than just open up the place they have at it. Let's develop a strategy where we say okay, here's the trail. If we find people wandering off that trail, you're the consequences. Here's the law enforcement that we're going to put in place to make sure that people aren't doing those things I feel like we need a remediation plan to. Begin with even know we're going to say, Hey, let's build this thing sustainably so that we don't ever have to worry about it. What are the pressure points where we will start saying? No close this no we're going to have to go in and do some remediation and where are those funds coming from again on my soapbox. But if you go watch the destination by design video, the state parks, people that talk about clearly say this will not be a state part it will not have the resources of a state art. It has to be regionally bit basically constructed and maintained over time through volunteers. That is scary. I. DON'T I don't trust the trail builders that are in my local community to do that without them building trails to places that are inappropriate. The preemptive planning is so vitally important to systems like this because it has you need to have something in place like you said to to even even if it gets to that point, you have a plan right and in like you said, you can then maybe shutdown trails or divert them earlier on before things become a huge issue. You know. I, think about this in the context of where I grew up in western New York. There's a place that a man wrote a book in the seventies that was like secret places of western New York and it. It was the worst thing he could have done for western New York because it suddenly made all of these secret spots, hot spots to go to, and that's the. Like Sh- shot up like don't tell. This, place can't handle it. Right and no one. That's just what happened. There's an area that has like a flame a little gas leak underneath a waterfall that people have been key kept lit. It's really cool. But this was one of his secret places and it is so overrun. There is no under story in most places there's a like crazy they have to constantly be shutting down parts of the trail trees overhead are dying just from all of the trampling it is just the attention destroyed this place and that. Was a park with funding. It was part of a park system to that that could have had enforcement that could have had a plan and they weren't ready for the traffic, and now this place is so run down I mean it's still beautiful in its own right and it's still you know deserves protection attention but it is so far gone from what it used to be. I don't think it's ever gonNA recover, and then you know you continue to see people writing about like just. Can't handle it anymore. I I hear you and I keep trying to talk to the local lawmakers here down and argued that remediation is way more expensive than planning. If we plan this right, we don't have to worry about it, but if we don't plan it, we just let him blast the trail through the remediation costs are going to be outrageous We can do a humongous manner damage in a very short period of time and I don't mean intentional damage i. mean you know but benign they they walked through and by walking through, they actually do considerable amount. Of damage, you go back to that destination by design video and I I keep going back after but all of the images are people running across the Ridge let's mean they're like the ultramarathons thing. So they're running across these regions, the running across the rare blank communities I would be probably aghast the amount of damage they did just recording that video much less what'll happen if they open the trail once people. and. They're trying to sell an image that is not reality that they cannot build trail. The does that and I could. Yeah. It's difficult. Yeah and I mean there is no amount of remediation or money out there. That's going to bring a species back from the brink or potentially back from extinction I. mean these are plants that are not terribly charismatic. They're not horticultural valuable at least at this point it's not something that are like, Oh, we've got seeds everywhere. It's not like these are gone forever if. They're gone they're gone and a lot of these species like aren't aren't getting nearly the conservation attention already as is and what happens when you push them farther and farther and farther towards it just by the simple act of walking on them again, it's not like we're building homes of their. It's not like we're replacing this place with line just walking on these things it's game over. It is game over. It's a it's sad what I know the people don't mean to do it, and so I drive and and be you know in about my interactions with people but a lot of times they do significant damage and they just don't really care They want that view Shit. That's the most critical. And the second at best. At best than tell me about it, how many people aren't even I didn't hurt a bird didn't hurt a bear so I haven't heard nature to. Support all of that but okay. That's. Why I reached out to you I mean I've been really impressed with your show they're very few people that stand up for plants and you are and I'm I'm I'm so pleased you do they some. Trying. I'm trying to raise students at that care about plans that they give those planes of voice in the conservation conversation. They don't get as much attention as they deserve them. They are acis of the ecosystem without the planet communities. The animals aren't there. Then a lot of people make those connection and that's the thing I've realized doing this as it's you know people might think they think plants are boring, but they just haven't been exposed to. It yet then at least not the right way, and that's why I try to get a varied amount of people in here amount of interest. But it's like teaching people that plans are living things, organisms they're interacting with the world. They are the foundation for most ecosystems with the exception of Lake Deep, sea vents in the ocean and I think when you start to tell stories about plants that are compelling rather than just Oh, they're useful to. A handful of them are useful to us in some way people. Oh Yeah. I never realized they were doing that and those are the best emails. I get are the ones that are like I never considered this a now every time I go outside I look at trees differently and you're like. Okay thank you. that that means you know you can get interest in the stuff you can get excited about the stuff. It's that lack of education. It's that lack of a diversity of interest being introduced to the plant world. You know like my early introductions were purely. Folklore and some which to meet never resonated, and so it took me so long to get into plants because no one ever stopped telling me that they were ecologically interesting that interact with each other and the world around them, and that's when it really stuck. So that's where this education comes back in. It's not that people are walking on these plants because they hate them allographs scree rare plant. It's dangerous of know exactly it's benign it's that plant blindness and and. That's where the education really steps in and so that's one of the reasons I'm arguing. So vehemently, that education has to be part of the planning, not the afterthought not once we have a drill will figure out how to educate people known and unknown. Let's walk in with a plan and see where we go from the. and. So you know for everyone listening that again fired up wants to help out wants to get involved wants to. Say their word about this What's what's a good next step for someone listening to kind of get involved in this maybe reach out help out in some way or just you know, say their piece big their mind on the process of plant conservation as it relates to recreation. Okay serve you are in the state of North Carolina. You have a voice in this conversation at your outside of here. I'm star you might not get as big voice, but you can still expressive please do but I would argue the reach out to Blue Ridge concerns I think they are best hope I think that they understand that there is a balance between recreation and conservation and they are trying to strike that balance. I, think by calling them up donating a little bit of money he may be joining their organization gives you a voice where you can say look I want you to prioritize the biodiversity over the view. Shit. By giving them that voice by giving them that comment, you are empowering them in that conversation to build the trail in an appropriate way. If we just let the people who want the hiking trail to speak, then all we're GONNA get as an unsustainable hiking trail that that that basically goes from Russia Dubuche it. So boards conservancies the first place I would look the second place is that the State parks as a mechanism to go through and make public comments about stay trails, and so there's a guy named David Dave head who is the head of the state parks trail division and an I argue that you need to reach out to him and say, Hey, we're going to build a trail that's fine. But let's make sure it's stain -able. Where's the educational component of the plane? Where's the law enforcement component of the plane? How are we going to protect those plant communities and I think that those organizations will respond on that they will work to protect those plants if people raise their voices and say something if we don't say anything, then I think they're just gonNA run with the the voices that are speaking in those are the drill builders and so lords conservancy is A fantastic local conservation group I think they could build a Stewardship Council I. Think the day good execute on many of the things that I think need to be put into place I. Think they're the organization to do it and Charlie's probably given custody when he sees me next on but I'm applying this pressure because I know they can do it even though he's going to be uncomfortable for. I mean sometimes the best things in life the right thing to do is not comfortable or easy at times but even just reaching out like you said, making your voice be heard sticking up for the plan sticking up for biodiversity I I mean, that's how we're going to get ourselves out of this extinction crisis. If we just wake up realize that these are what we're talking about whether it's full on Habitat Destruction or just disturbance to appoint that the species the individual species can handle. This is protecting biodiversity. This is what we mean when losing. Biodiversity and so yeah. I mean it's not easy. It's not always the funnest thing to do to speak up but what else do we have if we don't you know we're going we stand to lose a lot and whether you understand what biodiversity means or is just a fun thing that you know matters you know it matters. We know it matters more and more realizing matters for human health for human livelihoods, but also the ecosystem that the whole biosphere that keeps us planet together biodiversity matters and so protecting it really needs to be a top priority. It does every single species nobody should be left behind. And again when you think about how overwhelming that can seem, that's why this habitat level protection is important and preserves these these were protected because of the unique habitat, it's a habitat, a lot of species not just plants in. So going back to the beginning, it sounds like if these were put into place to do just that anything that could hurt that would hurt bio-diversity overall especially the plant communities that divine this biodiversity. It really it's suspicious indefinitely needs to be addressed to the fullest extent. Yeah, I a hundred degree. I I've been raising my about it for two three years now and to be honest I haven't made a lot of headway and so that's why reached out to us is I'm hoping that maybe just a little bit of a conversation in the public around will get people to see both sides of this issue rather than the just hearing from the well funded drill builders. Because, if you go look at that the plan, it is snazzy. It is snazzy. It is very, very pretty, but it's very, very thin on data. And It just seems like a sales pitch rather than a feasability study. Well, my hope is that you know I know you're not alone you're not the only person dealing with this you're not the only region of the world that's dealing with this sort of stuff and again it's not yes or no it's not. We have in more we don't have him. It's doing it in a way that works for everyone and again puts nature and biodiversity at the center of its own happy to be talking about these issues because I'm hoping you. Know other people in other parts of the world that are listening that are facing similar issues get that impetus to do something or at least take the next step in and again, look for models that work the Roan Mountain model. The Blue Ridge Parkway there's places where this is really well done and done in a way that's conducive to both enjoying the outdoors, but also educating people about it. So thank you for bringing the store attention and at least doing a matter that's calm. Cool. Collected in based in science you're not an envy. This is truly just for the wellbeing of diversity as a whole and and really plants being at the center that. It is biodiversity is critical and being able to interact with it is critical, but we have to find ways to do that sustainably and I'm GonNa keep putting that mantra of their sustainable trail development is the critical step and we gotta get it done now while they're planning rather than as an afterthought. Sustainability doesn't work as an African. Yeah, and so people want to reach out to you find out more about your work, get into plant conservation to the genetic side thing or just learn how recommend they find out more about you and your lab. A well, a I I recently built a lab website You can find it going to Appalachian, state. Biology Faculty, you'll see me I'm the ugliest one in the group and. You can just follow the link to my website and you'll see that I'm really devoted to training that next generation conservationists. Right on, well, keep it up and we'll have to have you back on to talk about that training in the work that you're doing specifically in the lab I'm I'm fascinated to learn more about it. So keep in touch. I have a fantastic study were just starting on augmentation out breeding depression, and when I'm done with it, I would really like to talk about but I know that's in the future sounds like a plan. Well, Dr Usta thank you so much for sitting down and talking with us. Thanks for bringing this to attention and also thanks for setting the stage for hopefully a lot of other people that are dealing with similar issues. We really appreciate it and keep up the fight at you very much. Have a good one. I'll see you buddy chairs. Alright lots of food for thought in the conversation, and again, I want to reemphasize the fact that we aren't saying, no, no trail system at all. This is just a call for more conversation at least more planning better planning to help preserve plants while also getting people outside and giving them the ability to get out into nature and see some of these plans for themselves. That all comes down to conversations, collaborations and again planning. So I hope you go look up all the resources again, check the show notes for this episode over at indefensible plants, dot com slash podcast. It's put up the links for this episode, as well as all the other relevant links all the other besides each and every week before i. Let you go I wanNA give a shout. Out to the latest producers, this podcast, a big. Thank you goes to producers, Britney Helen Amanda all three of them went over to patron dot com slash indefensible plants signed up to be patrons at the producer credit level. So not only are they getting this amazing resume building title podcast producer. They're also getting access to stickers and multiple bonus episodes each and every month lot of good. Conversations going on bonus episodes and doing them as a big. Thank you to everyone who helps keep the show up and running and a big. Thank you again to all patrons or anyone that has supported the show through patriots or buying merch. It helps so much and I could not be doing this on this level without you. I can't emphasize that enough as I near the end. Of My time as a Grad student, I wanNA keep indefensible plants going for you each and every week I wanNA keep bringing amazing botanical conversations to the world and the only way I can do that is if people help support the show. So thank you to those three producers and thank you again to everyone who has supported the show over the years it means the world to me. But that's about it. For this week I thank you all for listening I. Hope he hit that subscribe button in the process. Give this podcast review until your friends word of mouth is a great way to spread this podcast to new audiences and we gotta get more people cared about plants as we saw in this conversation today. But until next week, this is your host Matt signing out audio everyone.
Postpartum Anxiety and Depression
"This is the hilarious humanitarian podcast with Deanna Silverman LCS, w creator of the hilarious humanitarian Instagram page with her co host, Erin, Pruitt, intuitive life, coach. Here, we will be discussing mental health, navigating diplo discussions, finding our connection to each other ourselves and uncovering, our strength, our voice, and never forgetting to laugh the information shared in this podcast is not a substitute for seeking help in the licensed mental health profession. Hi, friends. Welcome back to the hilarious humanitarian podcast, high Irian. Hi de Ana. Hi, chris. Hi, chris. Oh my God. Free was so weird. A little weird here. Getting a little weird. We're recording on a day. We don't really record get just. Monday. Yeah. I like it. Thank you, Sunday. Lord's day of Chrissy. All right, guys. So to begin transition is a bumpy. Did you know we have a fan club guys do we want to join I fucking do. I actually Dan has joined my husband has. Has joined what is up Chrissy? What about your husband so so about that? This. This goes out to Christie's has been. So if you want to join our fan club and become our emotional support, unicorn, you can visit patriot dot com, backslash hilarious humanitarian pod, and you not only get to hear premium content after you signed up. You also get ten percent off all the hilarious humanitarian merchandise plus other free and fun, bonuses and swag for as little as a dollar month. You help support this lovely little podcast via Queant purchase purchases purchases, I need to purchase these no, seriously. Like a quick -ment is expensive and always needs to be worked on. Yeah. I my headphones right now, one of the ears doesn't work, and it is. Yeah. Rochas. Yeah. And I'm like, no sorry we're we're going with it. Sorry. We're not bite on other. We ran only get come up and Chris, he always gets the broken. Yeah. Chrissy. I'm kinda just the little shit side show. Keep you humble Lord Chrissy. Yeah. We gotta keep your home of God to keep her down. So, yeah, it with your support in joining our fan club. It helps with the production of the show. It helps pay for quit -ment. It helps basically us remaining. So we really, really appreciate all the support. It helps us continue to bring you this, awesome weekly content that we so hope you guys are enjoying. We appreciate all of our fan club members. Of course. So thank you to all those who have already contributed. Once again, you can join our fan club patriot dot com slash hilarious. Humanitarian pod. You can also check that out in the link in our bio on Instagram hilarious humanitarian spot. So before we jump into our topic today, though, we wanted to touch on some interesting, pop culture, topics for the week giant swarms of adorable lady bugs. And when hiking rescues, go wrong. All right. So apparently, there was a swarm of ladybugs that were so Jain Ormuz in southern California that the national weather service radar picked it up over San Bernardino county in California. The actually like if you go on. Online on the internet search like the giant ladybugs horrible. That. Yeah. And it's like a picture, literally looks like a storm like there was like, oh, massive. Thing in the sky or whatever that got picked up by the radar. So it's called a lady bug bloom. They were flying about a mile above the ground in cloud was ten miles. Why because they're so little cute as high member seen the cutest. Way, better than locust. This way, better than locus. Could you imagine that for you knew they were ladybugs, if you just saw giants swarm of something flying above you'd be like, okay, the second coming hiring totally? The wild has begun. God where you're just like there's something on the radar, that's ten miles wide. I'd be like it's a UFO finally aliens are coming. We're gonna die. That's crazy. So it was an eminent. It was in San Bernardino mountains, and it's interesting 'cause we were up in big bear, which is in San Bernardino. And this is like two weeks ago or a week ago, and we are a laundromat, and there was this woman who was staring at my kid, and I was like, okay winner stare at her, she's cute, but then she kind of lunged at my kid and I was like, oh my God. What is happening? But she thought there was a bug on my daughter's shoulder as it turns out, it was like to lady bugs. So it's funny 'cause they're willing, ladybugs everywhere we are, basically. Basically by the swarm just do. No. And a mile up to me. I'd here's me. I don't know how high can bugs go, I never thought that high. I mean birds maybe but bugs. Yeah, I lied bugs around fucking way that is. Like a mile isn't like three thousand something I thought it was like twenty five hundred feet. One here, meth thirty two hundred I'm gonna get closer than thirty two hundred. Okay. Wins. Whoever wins the other one gets to ask when ask any question or do something silly, Aaron loves doing shutting I love bets, and there's always like, and she always wins. So she always get shit, and she's like she can get people to do embarrassing. I'm going with twenty five hundred feet for other hundred. All right. Let's see, like there's someone out there listening. That's like you guys are idiots. We'll now I don't wanna win because I don't want the pressure of having to come up with questions all come up with something right? So you're twenty five hundred I am. She is your your twenty possessive and then you're thirty two hundred. Okay. And I am and the bet. What's the bet? I don't even know about it. Feted twenty bucks. What, what is it? What are they betting the bed is closer to the truth? The better to right. Gets to have or. Okay. So how many feeder in a mild, I say, twenty five hundred she says thirty two hundred so who's wedding? Well, there's nothing on the tables. We'll just play. Okay. Okay. I really liked to be on the table. It is actually five thousand two hundred eighty feet. So I was bullshit. I, I know. And you like when you said, I'm twenty five hundred I want to look at you. Like, don't, don't take that one to look, pick wit. I don't like this game. I win. We're both were really far but you don't even know what you want. She was twice. Being right this time next time, I'll be prepared. Lord is no longer. Humble Carlin I played a game? And I made him go is strong. I made him put something on target and sing into a live. And he was like he looked like the biggest pervert because he put some kids hat on her some hat on the kids section. Yeah. And the phone down. Larry is too has. He's like seven hundred feet tall. He's six five and he's like twinkle took a little star some song, like some like. With singing into a phone looking very awkward. I'd be like I wanna give you guys a little bit of a visual errands, like barely five feet tall, and Carl her boyfriend is like six five almost six six. Yeah. It is a very interesting. Any, he's a like he's not too big. He's not like he's not like a thin. He's not cake dog. No. He's no Andre the giant. Yeah. And it's so funny because like we prefer to hug like sitting down 'cause if he gives me a hug, I literally my nose is about an inch or two above his belly button. Oh my and I looked at him. And I said, I feel like I should throw you back. So the tall tall eighty have you, he's like they don't care. It's fine. I'm like, no really you're out it. It is. We do care. Okay. Let me tell you something. We do care. Do you guys like role playing like your little girl or some not yet? I need some more starting with him. He probably like, okay, let's do something cute. No. Well, your mouth or creepy, I can only speak for myself, but when I was dating, I'm five nine and I would be so pissed every time I saw a towel dude with, and it was always like it was always a toll dude with a five foot two. Yeah. Little girl or woman. Everytime. Dna looks at you to. She gets enraged totally and I'm like, I'm just raging. I've been told an ambush just wasted on your shortness, multiple times in. I did online dating. I had at least two guys tell me I'm sorry to short really. Yeah. They were like, hey, and they were usually six three six four and I was like, okay and so I was like, well, you know, all right. I think it's fair for woman wants to talk. I talk doesn't want all my little didn't even know that, that when Carl I was like, oh, ship. How's your one tall MO fo? And he was like I love it. You just said, Mojo. I know. Two thousand five next they'll say, like, oh my God. Back to go back. I was really stoked when I met, my husband, he was six one. I'm like, all right. Cool. I just like when I wear heels, I'm six one literally how big bigger your heels. Well, they know not five inches, but they'd be like at least three inches. So there's three inches. I'm six feet. Yeah. Okay. So. All right. I dunno platforms could literally be four inches totally. And then I'm six one. And I told her I don't wear heels. Literally, the best you're gonna get a home. And he was like I don't care. I was like, oh, God when I would date it was hard for me to find because they're all just a like, yeah. All the tall guys were with short people. So I would meet dudes that were like five ten and I'm like, all right. I'm five nine. So I'm gonna wear flats, and have bad posture. And then I was like. And then I was like. Back. Sterling screw this. I don't care. So I did it a few guys that were shorter than me. And they didn't care which was also hot. Yes. Like some get over the a lot of people aren't aren't into that. I don't care. No. And I would date some guys that we're really close five five still at four inches above me. Yeah. And people like these kinda short and I'm like he's tall me. I should take one for the team. I should take a short. He says that like he's kinda short. You're like young by fee. Everybody's taller great. He's not fucking you. Oh, it's nice. I could kiss them and I have to tippy toes. And now I'm like, vic- step some here neck, probably hurt. He he's more. He makes it work more than I do. I dislike tilt une- like Benz, and yeah. You're trying to kick us good. Good. This standing up. Yeah. We'll go on bended knee. But every time but we should get Erin some stilettos. Oh my it'd be five seven. That'd be funny, and I'm definitely like a little bit of a koala. So I'm like all over him. So if we like to down, I'm like on. He's like you're just like prefers sitting sitting laying is definitely really nice sitting couch, that would be a dating sitting couch. Yeah. Is he walked in on kissing last night? Oh, she was like she really get a room. And I'm like I pay for this house. This is my room. And she was like, mom, mom. And then she was like, okay, she knew that I was like, not going to bend. And she looked at Karl. She was like you should be ashamed. Come on Carl, and he is like, but look her lips so show pretty and he's my God. If I were a kid. I'd be like let me excuse myself throw up on the dog. Yeah. And she pretty much talked him into making her milkshake. That's how she got. She was like, well. Milkshake right now. And he's like, okay. Okay. All right, next, we digress. Oh my God. No so excited. Okay. So this next story is seriously insane. It's probably still viral when this airs because it's this is oh, God. It's so sad. And so. You feel awful laughing, but yeah, we're gonna make Aaron watch it. But all right. So there was a seventy four year old woman hiker, who was injured needed to be airlifted from the spot. I'm already getting California, Arizona. Yeah. Yeah. Weird stuff on Phoenix mountain. They put her on a stretcher to be hoisted up into the helicopter. But the line that usually secures the stretcher was like not attached, and the lift turned the stretcher into a fast spinning roller coaster of a nightmare. If it you have to see this video Aaron has never seen it. So what we did was. We purposely did not let her watch it until right now. You're gonna go react. We built it up a little bit. Hopefully, she's the same natural reaction. I needed why. So seventy it says here, seventy four seventy four year old woman. Okay. Okay, here. She actually getting sit up. There we go. She strapped in the house. Again in a sleeping bag. She's close to getting in there, and it's swinging a little bit, which makes. Oh, oh. Finning pots a helicopter Keller. He kept not pot. Oh, and she's not stopping and they know. Slows down. She's. Her. It's a head coach. Oh, gee. Oh my God. It doesn't stop. It keeps dear Jesus. Oh my gosh. She signed his wedding. Oh my goodness. Now she's just sending a little bit. But nothing now she's tilting kind of to the side when she spins. Yeah. We want passes I've ever seen a human. That is terrible that I had. So I was telling Chrissy because we. We. I still in Christie, when the story broke, I had to Google the story first to make sure that the woman didn't die before I watched the video, because I knew like the background hype. That is like I was feeling. I knew it was going to be something crazy. And I knew I would laugh because I'm a nervous laughter who just I laugh when people fall down. I laugh when people get hurt like, as long as there's no, like blood or death. I'm screaming Horner? So yeah, my husband and I watched it. I'm not kidding snorting Ryan, laughing that is the worst shit in, like my Dan, my husband, he's all do you think that woman had dementia? I seriously think they might have cured it. What if they found out like that is the cure? Hi, V spinning crazy crazy like that was so frigging fast. I thought when you guys said that something crazy happened I thought it should be dangling. Not you'd ending. No. She is spinning like a tall helicopter. Yes, a top. Yeah. Like just spitting on table time so fast. You can actually see where she begins and ends a stretcher, just go really hope that they do like an interview with that lady, I need to note 'cause I swear, that's like the worst day ever. You're like one, I got injured on a hike to airlifted out here. And then you think thank God. They're here. I'm safe. Yeah. I'm gonna go to a hospital. Minutes been like oh there's this. And you think you're gonna like you're gonna like fly off and dialect. She probably thought she was going to die. I hope that her body did what our bodies often do like in biter where no like fire. Thrown up. No, I'm hoping that she had, like some crazy, basil vehicle response, so vague, or spot that she just passed out like blacked out or like you know, when you're going such high speeds you just totally when the three Gs God, what happened, hopefully. I just woke up really nauseous, and dizzy. For life. So my mom, they'll spinning Weiner mine. I'm sorry. Sweet lady, we're not making fun of you. How? We hope that you're recovering. I can't even go nuts and love. Wind you roads in a car that makes me just so my mom and my, my late husband and my mom and my dad whole bunch of people skydived, and right before my mom jumps around when she was like sixty the guy goes what he wanted, did you do any specials you know, jump. And she goes, whatever you want. He spend her so many times, Sola said her hair was up like an like like a little, you know, the little dolls at the hair fee, trolls trolls troll hair, and then she got down, and she took her like three hours 'cause she's kept tumbling me, tumbling me, I'm like, puked everywhere. She in his face. She faints planted, and I'm thinking I'm in I'm really actually really sad. So I just lift up the article of she she's alive. So I gotta start off with that. But so. So I looked up to see like it was an interview or anything and it said, so they interviewed the husband and his two days after the helicopter rescue viral. Oh man. The husband of the seventy four year old woman says she is still feeling the effects. I George metro said, his wife of almost fifty years is still experiencing adverse effects spinning and said that spoke of his wife's terror during the air, blah, blah, blah. She told me that she thought she was going to die in that she tried to control her breathing because she felt like she was going to pass out, but it's like according to metro his wife still is recovering in the hospital, but her complications are far from existent, her faces black from the blood vessels that broke from the spinning now feel. Deanna sorry to. And she spent I'm not surprised was freakishly now. Okay. Now we need to send a basket. Sorry. We're not assholes by the way, people. We realize avenue and the depth of a situation. There's an entire sub rented, dedicated children falling over children being idiots like things are funny. We're going to get some complaints about this, though. Listen, I'm feeling just a human and we laugh sorry. But we don't. I just, I don't know what you are, Krissy. But she's just. Feeling really shitty right now. Are you feeling shitty feel like you're gonna be judged for being shitty both? Okay. As fear of not being live. Do feel like what if this poor woman listens to this, and she's like these fucking bitches, if she's able to listen to she's like, well onto recovery. I don't think she's listening. Podcast. Yeah. She's like. Okay. Well, you know what? I'm sorry. I was the bearer of bad news in terms of her sustained injuries, but I just have to bring some reality, you know, and just like I'm just she okay. Okay. She's, she's okay. We're gonna pay an Ellen is gonna probably bring her on the show and take like sponsor her for like a years worth vacation can feel better. Yes. People that someone who's millionare's, multimillionaire take care of. I mean, what's people probably be like, don't be ages? But I, I'm just amazed at somebody hiking who seventy four years old in the air Zona hits. Yeah. Hell, yeah. Super youthful, and strong physically, that's probably how she made it through this terrible. Or choose even pacing her breath. I think and she's. And if you look at this video, she is in like a sleeping bag kind of she looks like a Caterpillar, so probably only her face. Everything else is strapped in closed in. So do you think there's gonna be a lawsuit? I don't think you I don't know. I'm sure it was they're liable for being doing something. Whether it's the material, you know, with first responders like there is the it's good intention. They're just doing their job. Like unless they I mean I wouldn't think that that'd be a great idea. Just curious. There's always lawsuits now. There's always lost. I have a sense that there won't be. But hopefully everything medically is covered so that she can be fully recover and not be nauseous by every few better. Make sure that where she was hiking. She was supposed to be hiking because I'll tell you right now, if you're hiking, in a place that there's like signs that say, don't hike, then you're liable. Yeah. Talking. Well, you know what? Let me warning warming. You're hiking stupid, and it says don't hike their your fucking liable like suck it up. Buttercup just you went from like chill, relax, to, like, oh, let me tell you the truth, I will not feel guilty about that bitch slap. I it I can't hide my emotions. Sorry. Well, should we move onto our topic? I guess so. Oh. We're gonna take a really deep turn here. Well, maybe not too much it's more so should isn't necessarily an easy one to discuss. But it's so prevalent and often overlooked, that we felt it was really important to shed light also, we know a lot of listeners, our moms, or moms to be, so we just felt like it was really important to share our stories as well as being transparent will be being transparent about our own experiences to empower those to also share their experiences and feel safe in exploring, what options, they have when they go through it. What are we talking about? Exactly. We are talking about postpartum depression, as well as post-partum anxiety so PPD in a affects at least one in five women and is what we believed to be very overlooked condition. I think that the conversations are getting. A little bit better, and thanks to social media. I think there's like I know over on my humanitarian mom platform. I see basically only follow parent related accounts, and I know that there's a lot of discussion going on about PPD and PPA. So I mean, at least people are talking about it, you know, whereas like twenty years ago, I'm sure it was even more ice. -lating. So each of us have also experienced either PD or PPA in some former fashion. So we once again, we wanna share experiences with you today in hopes that you can relate. Or if you are a new mother listing or experiencing similar symptoms to know that you aren't alone. Let's give a number real quick. We're gonna do now and we'll do it again at the end in case anyone thinks or suffering from this that they have the national number for supporting them get repeated again. Yeah. So just if you are struggling think you might be or know someone you can call directly the number one eight hundred nine four four four seven seven three that's one eight hundred nine four four four seven seven three and help to get support in your area. What, what just so they know what it's PSI? Yes. I pulled apart him support international. And they have people that support three hundred people cross United States trained volunteers support encouragement information you can. Phone. You can tax you can Email. They also have a great website with weekly online meetings because I feel like people that are suffering, or that are struggling aren't going to have that paternity to go out. Make an appointment go. See someone if they're stay at home moms if they're you know. Monitoring from recovering from giving her babies. There's online Hort so that you can do it right from where you sit. So the website for PSI is WW dot post-partum dot net. They have all kinds of different meetings for military people. Suffering from the military mom suffering from postpartum. They have parented mood support meetings. They give a list of the meeting times, and who's leading the meeting, the dates everything like that. So they're so many resources out to support swings because he also stocks legal religious advise clinical medical resources, both for the individual who might be suffering from the mom or maybe a partner in there. So it's one eight hundred nine four four four seven seven three. All right. Just wanted pop that in bullets cheer about our stories because we all are moms, do you wanna share? I wanna say like right out of the gate. I know that a lot. I think that I, I would seriously venture to bet that at least ninety nine percent of both men and women who are expecting a baby even while you're pregnant. We hear people just like talking about all. The good stuff, which I appreciate because who were already anxious in, in our heads. A lot of times when we're pregnant like who really wants? It's it's this weird like double edged sword. Right. Because people talk about, oh my God, it's going to be such a bureau full-time. And yeah. People will talk about like. Just get sleep. Now while you can because it's going to go away, but I don't think the. Heaviness is discussed. And also we hear a lot about, like it's the happiest time. Ever like bringing life into this world. And so, like, when I was a social worker in the hospital, I was assigned to many floors, but one of them was labor and delivery. So my job was if you give birth everyone has to intake, paperwork, usually will do postpartum screening. Yeah. And so it screens people for being like predisposed or having like a predisposition. Yes. If you have a history of depression, if you're like spring, tearful during pregnancy that could be kind of a window into, like, ooh, you might have a problem. So when people would score high than I would come in as the social worker to, to talk about here are the resources for follow up. Here's what to expect, and I would also normalize what was going on. So I would tell people all the time like. Congratulate you know, congratulations on the baby. I'm sure you hear all the time this the happiest you're ever going to be. And right now, oftentimes people be looking at me, just like deer in headlights, like, how is this possibly the happiest time so overwhelmed. And just the acknowledgement of feeling overwhelmed or anxious would be so like, comforting and, and not, I don't wanna say, I mean, like, you know, it would come for them to a point of, like, oh, thank God, thank you for saying that because so often is just like all right. Life goes on. There's your new baby. Well, there you go out the door. Good luck luck. You know. And it's frigging so scary it can be scary. So. In terms of PLO. So what did you girls experience? If you experienced anything, more more, depression, or anxiety, I think I experienced boring Zayed's because I don't think it rolled into depression, didn't stay with me. So I had my daughter I had pre eclampsia so they induced me early month early. So I was in the hospital for five days because I see section, and then they have to make sure with pre eclampsia, which is where the lining the not the uterus. The let's listen to send a cop pulled away. Right. So it's, it's a danger to the mom giving birth. And so I was in the hospital. I was so exhausted said two days of delivery. So I thought it was exhaustion. And when I laughed, I think the big Inder cater for me, which I was like overwhelmed was, she was crying in the car. My husband's driving us home now. He's driving us to the pharmacy. And I. I start crying and I can't stop. And so I'm crying, she's crying. And we get home. We cry the whole time he runs into the pharmacy to get whatever we needed and would go home, and my mom and his mom. Or there, greeting us, and I'm just like I don't know what to do. I can't stop crying eventually stopped. And when I noticed for me was that was your first ride home with her. I ride home. She was five days old. And I was still because they give you all this magnesium and stuff with pre eclampsia. So my body was like it was like I was bloated. It was like I didn't look like I had a baby like, yeah, you're like hit by a train. I was like this is not cute. But when I started worrying that I might have something is about two or three nights after she was home. Ask my parents to stay with me even though they lived only like five miles away, and I woke up her crying. Her, and I went and got my mom and she goes what and I can't touch her. I need you to hold her. My mom's like why what do you mean? You can't touch her. And I'm like I just don't think it's safe not that I was going to hurt. I didn't have feelings of hurting. I just felt like I didn't. I lot of the symptoms talk about like worry about the child. I didn't want to be with her. Did you have like more like a post-partum blues kind of I think so. I think they would blues, but then there was a definite exiled in there, because things just my heart rate, nighttime would come, I would get super anxious. Right. I was right. I didn't end up taking anything. But if I would have gone any longer. I started feeling better about two or three weeks after having right started to slowly dwindling. And then I started getting out and doing certain things to help me, and I was talking like had friends. Oh, the people that I needed to talk to that night. My mom when held my daughter for probably five hours in her lap and squared off in a chair. So I could see that she was alive, but I didn't wanna touch her. Yeah. Well, another thing too is like, what we I don't feel like the medical staff. No one talked to me about this. Like I only knew about this because of the work that I did with postpartum depression. And by the way, post-partum anxiety was never discussed when I was a social worker in the hospital. I never heard about post-partum anxiety. I heard about postpartum postpartum anxiety when I got it myself. Yeah. Had no clue. But what we don't discuss is how were so incredibly hormonal naturally during. Pregnancy. It's like ten to a hundred fold in terms of our normal estrogen progesterone levels, and that literally gets dumped out of our system within twenty four hours of giving breezy like when we talk about, like, oh, we're really hormonal. Because PMS that's a real thing. We're not being a bitch. We're not being like just irritable for. No, good reason. Like, I'm PMS soon. I'm not waking. I don't I it's not a conscious decision. I'm gonna wake up and be a bitch or be irritable Leno is a hormonal response. Just as anything else is a hormonal response. You can't control it. So to think that ten to a hundred fold hormones being there and then boom, they're not yet in one day, that's insane. And then also becoming a parent to a human being laying on real happy in your body, and having and now is interacting with the world. And I'm gonna I'm gonna like to stay on. Topic. But, like I just want to take a moment to talk about something so growing up in movies in talking to people like watching movies hearing about other people have babies, there was always this like, and then the baby came out and they put him on the chest. And merges Bali just like, oh my God. She's so beautiful, and I wanna be clear. I'm not making fun of anybody who it is lovely lovely. It is amazing. It's beautiful. I'm bringing it up for all those out there that do not have that response and are thinking to themselves what the fuck is wrong with me, and I want to tell you, there is nothing wrong with you. First of all, I when I found out, I was pregnant, I didn't cry when we found out her gender, we didn't cry, both me. And my husband, literally, I didn't the only time I cried during pregnancy will always remember I was very hormonal watching documentary about adult with a. Seniors with all. Alzheimer's. They're like their response to music. I was hysterical. I had to turn it off. Like I was like this is ridiculous. I'm crying so hard. I did not cry. I was so just like. Kind of like a flat affect. And then when she was born it was like an immediate introduction into exile, eighty and were just like like. I don't know what to like. I just didn't cry. I felt love and I felt like oh my God, like a mmediately like everything to protect this, baby. But I did not cry. Not once probably first six months until you know she was six months old. And then I was just sitting there just like taking it in like, I'm her mom, like, I'm just so happy. But there. Yeah. So I just wanted to I, I just felt like I need to throw that out. I feel you wouldn't. I brought soci- Sexton pulled Eze, Adamy put an I'm pinned down anyone cetacea sex down, like your Jesus on a cross. And I was like and are here's your baby hovering over my face, but I have no arms to touch her, and then they put her on my chest, and I was like ticker off. I'm gonna throw up. I'm gonna throw up and that's that was action to her. I was like, I'm gonna throw up. I'm like nice. Nice baby. I I'm so scared because I didn't know it was ending up, and I remember my husband my late husband, he was just like constantly. He was like not attuned to what was going on. Like, oh, look at this look at the Bill court, I got to cut this and I was having we having two different experiences. Yeah. He was bonding curious interested. And I was just Nahshon overwhelmed and feeling had major surgery. And I was exhausted. Yes. So I get the not bonding. I wasn't even protective I was just like I was kinda like get her off me. I'm gonna throw up on her. Yeah. So what about you Chrissy when, when you're the magical experience, like shade came out on my chest? Like I was crying. Dan, was crying. Yeah, it was a I had that experience my stuff with Eaton came later, when Dan, deployed that, that I think I don't know if I would call it post-partum, but it was definitely. I don't know what it is. I was definitely depressed left, how many how three months old, and I was alone with her. And, you know, when you have a baby for the first time for me at least like you have all these friends, and you have these freedoms and you have, and your life, suddenly changes and comes to a screeching halt. And if you don't have a good support group, like I feel like I had some certain gems, but like your life is a big shift and nobody talks about the shift that you go through like as far as your life changing their like it's life changing, and, you know, your parent needle sleep that much like you're saying, but there's like this whole thing of, like you don't it's, it's a completely different change. Not just like a little one like an and isn't it a day like you could get support from people, but it just doesn't feel the so I was I was really blessed to have a very good friend who had a baby two weeks before me. And I'm telling you like she was my lifeline. She wasn't even somebody who lived close, like she lives in Washington, but I would text message her. We would text message each other, and I would like, because our babies were so close in age, that I felt like, yeah, it was nice to get support from moms and people who've been there. But it's not the same when they're not going through it right now. And I know it's like beggars can't be choosers. But in terms of managing my own anxiety in my own stress. It was really helpful for me to reach out to a mom, who is going through it and going through very similar things. I want to also say that we have to be careful about who we reach out to, for example, like Facebook chats, like I remember when I was pregnant I joined the groups. Yes. Like babies doing all I quit. Yes, I has. There were so many judgmental fucker you know what support group for me wasn't even judgmental for me. It was people were not signing onto those groups to be like, I'm having the best time. I'm loving this. Let me tell you. Here's a glimmer of hope my baby. Smiled at me. No, it was like I'm anxious my husband's not involved. It was just all the like it was other exile eighties and other people's issues. And I know that there's people out there that can find like that very helpful for me gave me even more anxiety. Be as I. So I had post-partum anxiety. I feel like they're elements of it that still stick with me till day. And my kids, almost three. We've had stations I have a doctor. But I would diagnose you. Yeah, for sure. It's protective warrior anxiety of like around your daughter that you're hyper vigilant of yeah safety, we up until like on the ago. We started driving in the car with Dan in me in the front seat up until a month. Ago you're worse than me. Oh, yeah. Like every you can't play against an a minute ago. Yeah. Dan, because I always drive because I get carsick. My husband would be in the back with her. I always like a God. We still co sleep like. Yeah. Still comes in the bed with. I'm always like no. She comes into bed. I think mica starts in the bed. Does mike? Go does she snow? My does not stop. Mike. Never is alone. I'm always with her. Yeah. Always which. But I feel like I mean I had anxiety before I gave birth and like you said, like the I think my anxiety was like at a I don't know. I don't know what level of one ten I was like four five and after I gave birth for probably the first year she was alive ten. Oh, Mining's -iety as far and in, especially night, timings -iety, like during the day I could get through, and then the night, timings eighty was like, what if this is wrong or I mean, I took my child's temperature you still take your I do so much like she feels warm think she met a fever, because, you know, you get and you have in this day and age of so much information out there that is much, and it's overwhelming. It's all it's too much. I was always stressed out, like, okay, she's sick to she you go to the doctor if I if I nor this I'm gonna be a terrible mother, if this gets worse like I was constantly, just like so worried that if I overlooked one thing that I w-. Was going to that. That would harm my child. I will be I would never forgive. I will say that I did make myself really proud in one, one big instance, so my daughter had a injury when she was born, she was stuck in the birth canal and when she came out shit a pretty significant arm injury. So she had like a dead arm, and they call it break, you'll plexus palsy, which sounds so terrifying. They told me the name of it, and I'm like my job is to be on the internet. You know, I'm a big internet nerd, and I remember they told me that, and they said, your daughter's going to need physical therapy for the first year of her life, we do not know if the nerves are gonna regenerate, and she's going to have like her arm use of her arm like when she was pulled out of me, you know, babies, they cry in the, like the responses to, like, hold up their arms and whatever. Arm was like thing. Yeah. Her arm was like completely behind her body. It was just it was a dead arm. And so we didn't know and I remember saying out loud, you are not going to Google this. You are not your sole focus is to get her to physical therapy, every single appointment, you're going to follow every single word that those people say you're gonna do every exercise the best of your ability. I didn't I never googled it one time saver yet to the point where like, once she was fully healed. And now she has her arm. You would never know in fact, I joke that physical therapy made my daughter like the hulk because she's so freakishly strong guys like I'm pretty sure she could beat up like a grown person, you know, like she's so frequently strong, but I didn't Google break. You'll plexus palsy until like a year, afterwards, smart and shoulder stove show, which is like what happened to her. And then realizing like babies get stuck in the canal and they could die and like become brain dead. And I was like, oh, fuck me light. There's my eighty coming back. Like that's what happened. It was so surreal because I had no idea the severity of the injury or the situation because I refuse to Google it. However, at the moment of me deciding to Google, it was my super strength. Yeah. Because it would have paralysed me like I think I've been to ginning, what else could happen to her. And then she going, Chris was like that because. Is he's dad, he's hard of hearing and he could not. He one thing to giving Zayed's until she got tested was her hearing. He's like, okay, do you think you can hear them? And I finally just called the doctor. And I said, can you just test her, like I know you're going to do it, but can you test like as soon as possible? And he's like sure I'm like her dad's anxious about issue hard of hearing and to his fine. And for him it was, like, okay. All right, we're good. But he, I didn't realize you had a low leveling Zaidi about it the whole pregnancy. Okay. He never told you he was just. Yeah. Well, his sister's hard of hearing, too. So he was like, look. She's probably gonna hurt hearing. I'm like she's already. She's already hearing you guys have done great. Yeah. It's to me. It's doable, red. And he was just, like I don't wanna have to struggle for him. It was like what he had to do over come stuff about, it's an interesting process, especially when you have like these little hiccups issues. You know that make you takes. It's already stressful and hard. And then just intensifies it in. That's also, I think not only your chemicals in your body. Right. The hormones having the baby the stress of a baby. We're not even talking about if you're something in your life situation, works, like your husband, like we did talk a little bit going off being deployed, like I know with Chris, he was, like everything was hunky Dory. Let's go, let's like do life. And I was like a no mother for like this. I'm scared. You can't leave me. He wanted to go back to work. And I just think that even the dynamics of partners of the parents, if you have that some people are doing this by themselves. Yeah, I feel more is late. When I when, when I the first I mean, I still think about it often. But the first year of her being born, I. Okay, what I would cry about. And I mean, this I'm not being, I'm not joking in any way, I'm talking about single moms, like I would cry so hard like the anxiety and just being like, how are they doing this having so much frigging respect I still do you know, just like, oh my God. And I would think about people who have husbands or partners who are deployed who have jobs that take him like I have a friend who her husband's a firefighter. So it's like they had kids and he'd be gone for a week at a time. If there was a fire and just being like my mind which is race. You know what I wanted to also talk about Izzo. So there's post-partum blues, postpartum, depression, postpartum anxiety, and then there's postpartum psychosis, which is pretty rare but really, really serious. I just wanted to touch real. Quick for anyone listening who don't know the difference about the differences of the different diagnoses. So for post-partum blues, this affects fifty two eighty five percent of all mothers in the first two weeks of postpartum. So Aaron this is why aft like. Yeah. No. Was it? Louis Blues, the symptoms include irritability anxiety, fluctuating mood and increased emotional reactivity. Mild, spontaneously remits not considered psychotic disorder. Yeah. Social, you know the hormones like when you were talking about Josh rushing. Absolutely. So I pulled up another one. So for baby blues, it could be poor concentration mood changes sadness, executive restlessness, irritability impatience, feeling like you're just I don't feel like myself or this isn't me. There could be weeping crying for no apparent reason. This is fifty to eighty five percent of all mothers, who just had a baby get this. Okay. So to normalize that if you're. Listening and going, what the like once again, going along with people saying it's the most beautiful time of your life up to eighty five percent of women way, two weeks after having given birth no wonder we're feeling inadequate because we're like what when you compare yourself to what we've been told this is supposed to be the most beautiful time, what, what blessing all things true. But why don't I feel this way? Why do you feel this way because it's totally normal to feel this way, you know, it's so scary. So then with postpartum depression, there is let me pull up. I think the Sofer postpartum depression, it's ten to twenty percent of mothers, get postpartum depression in the first year of post-partum symptoms can include excessive guilt anxiety, depressed, mood, insomnia, or hyper som- Neha, so sleeping too much sleeping not enough. Off suicidal ADA shin. Fatigue, moderate to severe symptoms. Prolonged course. And I think that also can be influenced to buy your environment going back to work. We worked, I worked, I think working in the nonprofit world, you've females and I would watch they would come back and things -iety of leaving their baby. Oh, art time fulltime? Like I remember we used to talk at worked in human resources as a trainer and I was like we need to talk about this because we work with, like young a lot of young staff. And a lot of young moms. How are we supporting them to feel like they can move back into the workforce and not feel guilty? Yeah. It'd be flexible what, what can we do because it was, you know, they're not they're struggling at work. They're struggling at home, and you're trying to merge two and what was that as back 'cause you're progressive and very supportive and warm. And this is HR. So were they like death acute idea? Erin. Put it. We don't they turn the fast. I work, you know what they probably spend a lot of time, because it was a campus having to get to where you the nursing were breastfeeding or breastmilk pumping. You have to have legally a place for that. And they're like, we'll just turn the other bathroom into that, too. So they don't have to because far my that was the first response. My, my manager, I'm not gonna say which job, my manager when I came back to work, I said, I need to I had my own office. I'm like I want I want to I'm breastfeeding sewing pump. She so she told me to go in the bathroom that was where people shitting piss all day long. It was not an empty bathroom. That's what they did with ours. How about my own office? And it was it said priority to nursing mothers second. And then, you know what's so funny is I had my daughter and I was pumping. I ended up having three other colleagues did not because I had my own office didn't have offices that would say Aaron can I come in? I will leave any time. Yes. It locked. And they were like really is that. Okay. I'm like absolutely could you imagine? I had been for me wanting minutes smelling. Somebody's poop hearing, someone take a shit, and they would, and then it's hard enough to pump, 'cause, you know, everyone can hear on the other side of a door. It makes all these noises I do love to that. There's now pumps that come with like it's part of the insurance like you'd now ticket home. I had a by one for three hundred dollars because I think handed me a hand pump. And I was like, are you plan? I actually liked hand pumps better. Really? Yes. Oh, no. I give me a Netflix movie. I love him. Utters up. I don't be interacting at all. So it and then we would have breast milk and the other thing is where you can put the breast milk like our staff worked with kids, and they have to have their milk somewhere like it's logistically. It's a process. Yeah. And I think some a lot of places don't make it acceptable. No most places. Don't. Sorry. All right. So to finish this list, postpartum depression. There's exhaustion, lack of energy low sex drive changes in appetite weight loss, weight gain weeping successive worry. Feelings of inadequacy hopelessness despair with post-partum anxiety, which I yes, that's me. Hello. I'm on a list. There is constant worry feeling like something bad is going to happen. Feeling a sense of dread tiredness and racing thoughts poor appetite. Difficulty, concentrating feeling. Like you've lost the old you. You always checking the baby is breathing. Yup. Always worrying about the baby, headaches, nausea aches and pain up. Holy hell, I am on this entire list that lets me then I gear maybe I eighteen months of Edens life. That's missing. I still Terry, some of it is there's hyper attention to the baby. But then there's also disinterest, and I think that's something on another list that talks about your hyper, where or almost disinterested like keep the baby from me and that I, I do think that lands because you said you did it for year after your daughter was born. And it was superintendent when I was by myself. Oh, I'm sure I think I had Dan dam was home. He could talk me down from it and be like, everything's fine. She's going to be fine. You're okay. Okay, I'm here. Let me and he'd, and he was so helpful, and then when I was by myself, and at night, it was just me Eden, an empty house. I screamed into pillow. Owes cried into pillows. It was in Mike, you said, you know, you had a friend, like I was so lucky that I had a friend who had a daughter a month before Eden was born and we spent a ton of time together like she always came over. We spent some it was like a great support and a texture at any time and be like, I'm feeling really shitty like, and she she was such a calming, but, but it's different when you don't have someone right, there at every, every hour of the night when you need. Yeah, when you're when you turn the dark thoughts and you're like, oh, my gosh. I feel I would feel guilt to cause I'm Mike. She's also a new mom going through stuff. She doesn't need. It's shoulder me freaking out because I'm dealing with dealers definitely a balance, you know, so I had another friend who, who had really profound postpartum anxiety depression. Not my friend in Washington, but another friend who is like four months behind me, and she was the first person that I admitted to like my intrusive, thoughts. So I still have intrusive thoughts and what I mean by that. And they're like difficult, you know, to like talk about, but I would just get these, like, really horrific images. All my God. I'm like cannot believe it's good though. It's yeah. That I'm talking about this. But I would have these images of having my daughter on my body, like one of those baby Zorn's, or whatever. And like a. Like falling down a flight of stairs with her in it, and like crushing her body or I would have like a even worse, which kept me from going outside is, I'm walking with my daughter, and like somebody comes up with a knife, and stabs her while she's in the end, I'm like, why is my brain going here? You know, bring would do that at night, still does it at night. I'm always like what if there's a horrible earthquake? Right. That's exactly why she sleeps with me still because I'm like, oh, Dan's gone. She'll probably sleep in the bed with me, the whole like when he starts to play again. She's five years old. Probably bring her into bed with me every night, just because I'm like, what if someone breaks in wanna right here, the only one here to take care of her? That's how I was when he deployed. I mean, she's it's terrifying. You think it's only at night when I wake up in the morning I'm like what the fuck was. I thinking about last night like yeah. In the morning. Usually, I'm like, I'm like, okay. That was. Why was being so like Iraq show irrational, and then every time the it's like a son the witching hour when is he was first born on ago, the bewitching hour and Chris's. Like, are you scared about is he? I'm like, no me. I'm about to freak. The fuck out gotta be some hormonal shifts with, like the sun going down and night, 'cause nighttime can feel so dusk, terrors. It's like no, the started like. Hairs? I'm like, yes, like oh, God waking up, especially in the in the beginning where like waking up every two hours and you're moves hurt and you're trying to, like, even it doesn't even have to be breastfeeding. I breastfed anti formula. Vetted. It doesn't matter. It's just like. Feeling alone. There was this picture that I saw that's going around way back when I still see it now pop up every now and again but it's like kinda solidarity in mom's waking up at night and it's like a picture, it's at nighttime. It's a mom holding a baby this little cartoon, kind of picture, and she's looking out of a window, and you could tell us night and it's just like all the stars in the sky, and I explained things like shit. But the pictures like like, here's the building, and there's like a window here here here in here and all the moms are like individually looking out the window, and it's like they all probably their perception, is they're looking out into the world and it's just dark and everyone's asleep, but them, but they don't realize that there's like a mom. Right. Below them. Hartman. Right. And it's different household. Yeah. Girl there were all awake. Yeah. But, but the but the perception in the feeling is like you're looking out the window into the world. That was like peacefully sleeping, and they're just getting their restorative rest, and you're just like. Tonight. Yeah. Like, oh my God. This is awful. And what is the TV the channels are? So the shows are so awful at nighttime like one of the main reasons that I got air conditioning in my house, one, we live in southern California, and it doesn't get that hot here, except for during the Santa Anna's. So my husband was like, we don't need air conditioning. We live on the coast. We've raised the white noise, I need the white noise, and I need to be able to close. All my windows at night, went Dan's gone. Yeah. Leave him open when he's at home. Dan's my safety net. Yes, there, I'm okay. Yeah. Mike, he'll take I'm like he'll take care of us. If some shit goes down. I'm he is Mike my security blanket when he's gone. I close and lock all the windows not house alarm set baseball bat, next to my bed, I have the shooting on. So I cannot if I hear any and our window is, like right at our into our front yard. You can hear everything I hear one noise. I'm like fuck that we're locked dash it. I'm like, once a panic room next. I. I would love it. If I had like a basement, that I could go down into and just lock everything up and Mike. Mike disaster strikes. I'm meeting like going down here with going there. Like every day, though. TNN. What are you doing? I'm like, I'm just really comfortable. It literally took me breaking down my husband. Like, I don't feel safe when you're not home. I need air conditioning. So I can lock everything. Yeah. And then he's like, yeah, okay. I get it. Now bad. My husband works from home, were always together. I have security systems inside the house outside the house, Dan is awesome. But if someone breaks into your house, my visualization as your it's going to be the one ten again. You. And Dan will be like those a did good. And you're like, yeah. Call nine one one. Oh, good job bay need. Do think we need to call my goal be behind you with a little acts? Like. Yeah. Like I think you tour the bad asses and Dan's like the chill. That's probably why I'm a little scared here. This be like, oh, I feel bad. Yeah. It'd be like you know what, sir you broke in, but we should sit down and talk about we couldn't negotiate are you hungry food? This is like my house has cameras in the front beside the back of floodlights all the perimeter of the house. I have like thirty of is closest neighbor like it, you guys are almost security 'cause, you know, each other, yes. Anyone coming into your neighborhood. It's like I have a Rottweiler. I have a now a puppy who's very loudly better alarm than the what Rottweiler. Oh, yeah, I have a bat. We're getting a gun, we got all sorts of stuff. And then there's my husband probably snoring. Like if somebody were to break, I wouldn't have a gun because I'd probably end up shooting myself, so. No. You don't citing something, you might suppose my husband's like you know, I'm trained like you. And I was like one, I don't want any guns in my house, ever, because I'm just, I'm not, you know, pro gun or anything. But, but I'm Mike care if I were in a situation where someone broken and I had to like load and point and shoot a gun. I would probably end up shooting myself in the foot or like yeah. Something like that. Yeah. Something bad ass nece that you don't have that she's the anxiety. But then I could fuck you up at us where I think you'd be like the crazy wild like spring it in your probably. If I may so very myself. Yeah. I, I like. It's turned backwards. I have a husband who turns into John wick, if somebody. I'm like you do that. I will hide in the corner with much as some of your attraction to him because I the safety net, I'm like, I, I the only time I think I could turn it onto, where I could turn into a total badass, if my child's in danger, and I feel like I would be like my eyes go, I wouldn't remember any of it, but it would go. That's your defense dude. Yeah. Deanna just for anything mild inconvenience is black. Dr Kelly who do not wanna meet. The sky knocks on the door. She's a. Girl scout cookies, I like a sign on my door to that's like no soliciting, get the fuck outta here and one day like the girl scout came by and. Knock on my door, and then I answered oh, girl scout cookies you can come in. It's like stranger danger when people onto my door, I have the front. Glad. So they can't see me. And I'm like who the fuck here? My husband is even looks at me knows I'm coming. She's like, okay, but the door I always look through my kitchen window Mike who the fuck. Okay. Oh, the other day, so we also have a door ring bell. You know, and so I will do I'll be up in my bedroom. And somebody will ring the doorbell and I'm like, first of all, who is showing up unannounced, like rude. And so then I'll pull it up on my phone. So I could stare at them silently. I won't because you can answer it. You know, you could be like hi. Sorry. I can't come to the door. I don't do that. I'll just stare into it. Yeah. I'll just stare. So Dan was downstairs with Mike. And somebody knocked on the door and I'm like this mother effort. He's going to answer the cat. Damn torn because he always does. And I tell him he's normal. Don't answer the door because somebody could be at the front door with a bat. They could hit you in the head running grabbed the dog grab Mike. And then I am up stairs. I can't make. Downstairs to, to defender. I need to be down. So the doorbell wrong, and I'm like this guy's gonna answer it. So I pulled it up to see the interaction and it was my neighbor and her daughter. And they were selling something, and Dan, go, I could cause I could hear the whole conversation and he goes. Oh yeah, thank you. That's something my, my wife would be like super interested, but she's not here right now. So I'll let her know. And then he that was it like that was the close of the conversation. And then I texted him, I'm like, how dare you pin this on me? Like tear, you what are you going to learn to not answer the door? He will answer the door for J normal people answer doors. You're acting like I don't answer my door. Now person. I answer it. Look that ASI I do. And like I said, Jehovah's Witness mistake of doing that once a week for like a month. You say you're Jewish how you get over. I'm sorry, I'm just like and they go. Oh, okay. And they walk away. Oh, I didn't know that because I don't answer my doors. And just on your little voice. I'm Jewish walkaway. I just peer through windows like a fucking freak. What does I? See, I don't care through the then they'll see. And I'm all Nope. I if somebody comes to my door and knocks or rings the doorbell I will get on the ground like I'm in the army, and like army crawl and reach up with my arm to like, lock the doors. Yes. And then my close all the blinds and turn out all the lights, and I'll look at my family like sh. Doc id? Who's at the door? Shut up eating no one gonna hear us. I think at one time grading paranoid children. By the way, I eat in and Mike are going to be like. The world is a terrifying played. No. She's going to be a ninja. I think your daughter, your daughter might eat it might get terrified, but your daughter's going to be like, she's going to be like, shut up, mom. Yeah, I'll fuck you up. I hope she's going to have more a Dan's energy, but my nice. That'd be nice. That would be. That happening. She's not going to dance energy is he said, when you for dinner, she's like, well, that mica. She's a go. Go. You always funding that person. Well, that Mike will Mike mica. She's a go go, go. Go go. She's like she's on the go. Mom always. Yeah. She don't let it. It'd be like, little sneaky, one like she's going to be like, hey, look. I'm so adorable. Don't fuck with that my eyes. Yeah. And then, like shake you in the side smart, you know, to make us and a couple of years. Good. Make it and the dancing. Ooh, look at our daughter. She knows how to it whittle. Or we should maybe take this away from her, but shadow box and talk about it. Dan? Put down. Yeah. Anyway, to CBD. It's way to calm in the house. All right. We digressed once again. Oh, oh, well in happens this I should make like a digression bell or something. You know what honestly I feel like we're pretty much on track. I listen to other podcast, I'm like three hours. What are they talking about? And then I'll listen to I'm like they literally did not get to the point until fifty seven minutes. Complained about one the other day, I like popular podcast, no names. No names. And I was like, I gotta try this out, and I'm like, wow. I mean they're successful they're going on tour. I'm like it took him fifty seven minutes to get to the point. I'm like, you know what I actually feel much better about myself? It's because I have the digression Bill digression Bill. For real I do wanna touch on postpartum psychosis. Real quick is extremely extremely rare at the same time. If someone has postpartum psychosis, it is extremely severe. And there's like a new me family. They're not gonna they need hospitalization stablization. Like you're not going to fix it with love and hugs. I had several women who ended up in the psychiatric hospital where I worked because postpartum psychosis. And when they came out of it, and they were stable like it, what they don't even remember they vary. The there isn't a whole lot that they remember and it's almost like you. I don't mean this to say like in a cruel way, but you almost wish that it was on videotape like so that they could look and see, like God there's been some China. Oh, yeah. Well. I don't know how that would be. But it's it's night and day. So with psychosis it says point. Oh, one percent of mothers in the first three months of post-partum can experience postpartum. Psychosis symptoms include mixed or rapid cycling agitation, delusions hallucinations disorganized behavior. Cognitive impairment, very, very low insight in low judgment severe considered psychiatric emergency. They need hospitalization. They need stabilization the baby cannot kids babies cannot be around the mom during psychosis. Religion cannot fix this therapy. Cannot fix this? Like when somebody when somebody is in. Yes. And it's, it's an acute psychiatric emergency. I just wanna be very, very clear that nothing. But hospitalization, and sable is. -ation from a medical standpoint, can stabilize this. Nothing else can be done for postpartum psychosis. As far as I'm concerned as far as I deserved. And that's what the stats show two inches. So acute that they need that intense support. And here's the thing, it's like suicide when someone is suicidal it eminent. And so what you're looking at is, is there endanger themselves or someone else. And so this type of depression, is there danger to themselves or someone else? So let's put this supports in get the sports, they need, whether it's intense therapy, they're being placed drugs. Whatever is needed, and then you can kind of move out from there, but it happens. One point zero zero one percent. It's very out there but it's like it's so rare. But it's extremely serious. And often, you know, those cases of there's no support. That's, that's the Andrea Yates. Story, you know, drowned all her kids, and it can happen. What's interesting? I was reading is also like sometimes you have one child fine. No problem, maybe the second or the third or beyond. And then you have depression, it might not people like why don't get it. Well different with every charge your you're out. You're just talking about in general Russian well, no post-partum when it comes up yet part that it just because you have maybe your first three kids. Yeah. There was nothing you refine you regulated went back into the world. And then that fourth child comes along. And then it's a whole different experiment. Yeah. No. It has to be treated individually, because it is unique and they're saying, also a real quick that you just looking at other elements that can increase postpartum that makes it a higher risk, because it's not just the chemicals are could environmental, an employment any type of domestic violence, any other mental health issues with the mother or in the environment of the home, single, parents or higher, mom. Our hiring multiple babies twin's, triplets. Unplanned pregnancy, which is interesting because you think with a, you know, the nine ten months of being pregnant, but it's it's a higher risk. And then also medical points are babies medical needs the demand, and that's not even counting sleeping thrown issues. So or having a child, maybe not the one, you just had your first child that has special needs or medical issues. So when you kind of layer the struggles in a household you increase, the potential for depression, right? There's another great as we wrap. It up at up. There's actually, another great resource online called postpartum progress dot com. It lists sorry. I'm not talking close enough to the microphone. And now sorry if you guys all hearing me, but you literally have to put your mouth like on a microphone. She's now, look to anyway, so post-partum progress dot com. It, you can find symptoms of postpartum depression, anxiety that give you resources stages of postpartum depression anxiety, how long it takes to recover from PPD PPA tools to help you feel understood it's a really great resource. Like I said before, not a lot of people are able to go and seek therapy or make an appointment or get out there. So finding online support groups online information is. A great start to where you should be going next. And if you can, if you, if you do have the ability, the resources transportation to get to Dr, we always encourage people to go, see your doctor. If you are feeling like hey, you know what I feel like something is off. It's impeding the way that I'm living. I'm not sleeping. I'm not eating. It's just so far off from your norm. It's impeding the way that you're just carrying on with life. If you're feeling like I'm so anxious, I don't wanna leave the house. I'm not showing up for things that I normally would show up for I would say that, that is a pretty clear indication that you could very well need extra support and know that all his stuff can very well be temporary with that said with like anxiety, for example, like I'm preaching to the. Choir sort of thing. But if, if like, for example, if you're an anxious person to begin with, and then you have post-partum anxiety. I'm speaking to the audience, and myself, and it is left untreated, you can potentially run the risk of having a very prolonged journey with anxiety. So we want to be careful of that. And to be mindful of it. I think also as much as I joke about, and I talk about my own anxiety. I do work. Very, very hard in practicing not. Not giving my, my child's anxiety is her own to have mayangs -iety is my own to have you see a lot of generational anxiety and disorders, and whatever worry and belief systems passed onto each generation, and I feel, very, very strongly that I wanna work on myself to keep my ings -iety for the most part to me. You know, like sometimes I'll, I'll have discussions with my husband about what's going on with me. But I make sure it's not in front of my daughter, your process. Yes. So it's not hurt after exactly my ings i-it-it's are for me to deal with for me to cope with for me to heal from. Of course, I'm going to have discussions with her when she's older, and she can handle a discussion about inciting depression. How can I not have this discussion? It's something it's my career. It's what I've been doing for so long as a it's a value system of mine. To break stigma to have her understand what's going on. But, but I want it to be a productive conversation is not going to be productive for me to just have like unhinged. Uncontrolled in front of a two year old who's going to mimic, what she sees as we can sit here and talk about things all day long. But at the end of the day, when your kids are looking at you, they are going to mimic your behavior, and they're your MIR to them. Yeah, they do what you say exactly, so, I just wanna be real real clear about that about that about these. Let me just end one more time before we end out the if you want a phone number, you can call or text. It's cross. It's national in the US. It's one eight hundred nine four four four seven seven three PSI support phone number one eight hundred nine four four four seven seven three you can call for yourself or friend, or family member, who is struggling potentially. Struggling with. PSI RPI. PPA. All right. Guys will thank you so much for listening. Thank you to our fan club members who help up who help us with the production of this podcast. Once again, if you want access to all premium episodes. Everybody has access to all the premium episodes. But if you want access to bonus episodes, that are super fun if you want access to our shit chat series, which gets released at least once a week, those are super fund. Those are pre recordings before we hit actual record on the episode. We usually have about a ten fifteen minute discussion, which is completely unhinged and really funny, usually. So you'll have access to those ways to connect with us team. Again. Yes, you can sign up on patriot dot com. Backslash Larry's Unitarians pod, and make sure to follow us on Instagram and swing by and say Hello to us. All right. We'll see a next week. Everyone is audio space.
Translating Ancient Greek Astrological Texts
"Hi. My name is Chris Brennan and you're listening to the astrology podcast. This is episode two, hundred, Sixty, seven, and today to be talking with Lamont Laszlo about his new translation project for translating all of the remaining ancient Greek astrological texts from the Hellenistic and Byzantine astrological traditions. So today is August eleven twenty twenty starting at exactly one fifteen pm in Denver Colorado. So, he'll avant welcome back to the show. Thank you for having me again. Yes. So this is your second time on the show. The last time was a few years ago. We did an episode together talking about the early history and the origins and some of the mystery surrounding horry astrology what must have been like three years ago now I think right now while you said, two years in half may be. Okay so. In the meantime you've been working on your background and you've recently launched a new translation project called the horizon project in order to basically crowd fund the translation of the remaining ancient astrological texts from ancient Greek through people supporting you on Patriot. Right. That's right. Yes. I just launched a couple of to go on the distillers sort of Beta testing because there is no what page for the project of dedicated the patient I mean but I'm just translating tax trying to win is them trying to expand the horizon of this this translation project? Brilliant and So I it seems like it's going really well, you've already got a decent bit of patrons and you're you're you're trying to go for certain funding goals so that basically if you're able to reach these goals in the next few months, you can fund the project and translate tax all the time basically right While yes. Some basically if I can you reach these goals I can I can spend. More time out translating this taxed. MIGHT BE I can I can maintain this current release date of the the first of September And of course, if more support comes tonight, can I can even ruled the horizon of this so bob, maybe I can nike. Now. APPTIME, some some sort of manuscripts data ready difficulty, obtain the you need to pay hefty some for for getting them. So I would like to see what what what sort of outcome can have. Okay grew. So I WANNA talk today about some of the tax because you've actually been really busy since you launched this project not that long ago in the past two months than you've translated an already released several texts and I'll put links to them. We're going to discuss four of these translations that you've either completed or in the process of doing and I'll put links to them in the description below this episode either blow the video on the. Youtube version or on the astrology podcast website for those listening to the audio versions that they can read along with some of these texts you're you're actually releasing But first before we get to that, let's talk a little bit about your background and just introduce people to you to talk about your credentials. So you're actually classical philology just from hungry and you're working on your PhD right now. Right? That's right. Yes. expected finished might be What to steal a had due to complete by. the title of these that was mentioned in the previous interview with May is the astrology inception of the emperor's knows anonymous astrologer. And these are the wear known cases of the stolen linen, slave girl in ten some voyages on the from the sea and and the taming of little up to small lion. So I'm just working on a new critical edition of these tax sundance is going to be. So he's going to be also sort defer comprehensive introduction to the. as Raja Brian Shaw exceptions in Genero. Okay. So that's exciting. I know. So there is another question that the according to my research and the This is something guy studying to be important is the Tom. This is the the. Larger the Chicago with your who is called the Ray Torius if Egypt and to. WHO's compendium was published and translated in English in some form so these Compounding was actually this is my feasible was actually written by these. The of the Emperor Zeno. So retailers should be another person who leaves a little bit earlier but of course, I this is not the topic of the conversation at the moment. Sure Yeah. We'll a the that astrologer the anonymous astrologer who worked for the Emperor Zeno lived in the fifth century and One of the things I remember pingree mentioned about him is something about the emperor or emperors around that time may be using their secret service in order to get the birth data of other rivals to the throne and things like that. Yeah highly possible but actually we only no. To certain cases that are nativities. So one of them is is the unknown on the unnamed. Son Of the Emperor Leo the first and the other one was political rival of Sinoe. who was the portent philosopher pump previous of Puna. Police. There are some other fifth century native these that can be dealt with. So I'm I'm just trying to be. A full argument why these some? Other native should also be assigned to dishonesty figure. Okay. So alerts prettier approach. There's some well, there was a lot of texts have been translated in the past by different either classic scholars or by people from project hindsight like Robert Schmidt or Robert Hand There's a number of tax that haven't been translated and it seems like your focus you're going back in translating some things that have been translated already but some of your focus is not just translating from critical editions, but actually going back and looking at the manuscripts. That are not printed. That are still in handwritten forum in ancient. Greek, and translating from those because sometimes that contains additional information that the critical edition leaves out. Yeah the well yet this is through partly because there are some critically that are are faulty Insofar as they don't include all the all the. Available manuscript witnesses and these. So when you strip witnesses should also be consulted but there are some of the tax that have never been edited in in the critical editions and the these some. So there are many reasons for for for this lack of trust of additions but the, but these can be really important texts in some cases. So sometimes Them the logic behind editing or publishing critical editions was just There was an author whose name was now and that was a critical edition missing and there was someone who had the time and energy and. and could be paid for for making the critical edition. But if it came to be some animals but. Some highly important tasks from perspective day could be just overlooked for easily just because. That was no reason for for disclosure to edit them. Right. So with a critical edition, the scholar sometimes with take all the surviving manuscripts or a bunch of the surviving manuscripts, and then try to reconstruct what they thought the original text was But in some instances, these reconstructions themselves might be faulty, right? That's right. Well, S tax finally richer three So the week we country. expect to these tax to to be hum untouched for many centuries. So these were in the course of the of the centuries they were adopted to the to the actual needs of the the readers sometimes short than sometimes expanded, sometimes modified or updated so. There are different versions coming from different eras and we must know that the earliest Byzantine Manuscript That term is extant is from detention or eleventh centuries. So there are. About the five, six, hundred years between the the the original versions than the first attested virgins of the some kind of taxed. As. We've been though somebody like like Ptolemy or balance wrote their tax richly in the second century the earliest versions of those texts that survive only date to the ninth or tenth century and Eating Yes or even later in this because they were all individual scribes had to sit down with the taxed and copy it by hand and so what we have by the time you get to the tenth century just copies of copies of copies, and sometimes if there's an error or something gets inserted into the tax that the scribe thought was interesting, then the texts diverge and can start looking very different. Up this is yeah this is part of the story and also these these texts survived in in in collections in anthologies. So sometimes, there are some portions copied from one one book into into a compendium and some in some form they are they are copied internal compendium and. It's just chasing a willow wisp to to to set the go to reconstruct the original structure of some tax sold. All we can do is going back to the earliest reconstructible version and to these versions son next to each other to see what what sort of about the. Conclusions we control from from these comparison. Yeah, it's interesting that sometimes some of these texts, the compilations you mentioned are these astrologer scholars living in the medieval period of the late medieval period, just going through these collections and copying down. Excerpts from tax that they thought were interesting and they would compile like a whole. List of different excerpts from different authors rather than just one continuous taxed of course. Yeah. That was the death was normal practice. So while it was like setting up the nose bouc collection. So sometimes, there were some some schoolers for example, Who Ho combined his his own handle. From different sources. Okay so all that being said, what So your goal at this point is to translate all remaining hellenistic and Bison Tyne Ancient Greek astrological tax what texts haven't been translated yet or what what are you looking at doing in the future? Well, there are many different types of taxes that haven't been translated or even edited For example there are some authors who. Was tax haven't been translated so far even though there there are some additions mom some semi critical editions. Most notably, for example, maximus OPF emphasis who is Point title down inception haven't been translated so far. Okay. This is not not the complete pawn because. So only portion of this poem have survived but. There are some the exhausted Happy dumb as of the tax. So we can. We can have a nice overview of the content and example could be a Nubia who, for example, the the first century has called Pot Out who fragments have been reiterated recently and this could be also translated. But which is possibly even more interesting is that there are some so there are. A lot of for practical horoscopes like case, boo connect DVD's case boot conception served from the Byzantine era that haven't been edited translated I maybe they can shed some light on on the actual usage of techniques and One of my primary plans is to to. To bring them to the audience. As soon as possible and and there are. Vast amount of. Of anonymous tax dealing with inception. dealing with them with the interrogation. So these are this is Arabic asteroid asteroid. You basically translated from Arabic to Greek and Um some some tax dealing with native ities. So while it is very, very difficult to assess the the amount of the volume of these texts that are still translated because as I said, there are some compoundmedia and the. Companions sometimes contain the same chapters from different. Collections. but we can imagine that there are some thousands or even tens of thousands of pages still awaiting translation. Okay. So there's there's plenty that needs to be translated and one of the things I like is that as you're doing some of these translations, you're immediately releasing to your patrons through patriotic some of the work in progress so that the people that are your supporters can actually start reading some of this stuff right away and understanding the process that you're going through in translating it or you feedback. Or comments or notes and That's been really interesting process to watch over the past few months and you've already gotten a few texts that are are near finished or in a forum were you ready to release a working additions and pediatrics and there's four of them that I want to go over with you today that's okay. Yes well I chose these is of. This form of publishing tax instead of of publishing books in ready forment because. These are not not work sin in the form as people just imagine them. So there are some some collections and and some different versions of the same chapter, for example, or the same task or same topic, and and sometimes hunt. There are better manuscripts that haven't been APP so far but. Of course, I can't have access to all of the available manuscript. So sometimes, scientists discover some new manuscript containing some surprising inflammation or rebecca reading so. If I just weighed down on I can I can say that okay. Now everything is fine. So to finish than the translation is also impeccable. May Be. So we can finish it then fifty or so. Okay let's that sounds like a good plan All right. So the four texts that we're GonNa talk about today that you've released in that I'll put links to the PDF in the description paid for this episode. The first one is entitled Choson Poor Free in their early work defining basic concepts and early hellenistic astrology. The second one is re Torius on the systematic interpretation of nativities. The third is re Torius on inception, which is a summary of how to do election astrology, and then the fourth is should ends discourses with Abbas. Machar on the secrets of astrology. So Let's start talking about anti casse import freeze. So I suggested this is being like a useful starting point because it's an early work of definitions and other Other people have started with this or worked on this text like Robert Schmidt but you've been finding a lot of new manuscript lately that other earlier translators and critical editions didn't take into account. So you felt like you could put kind of a fresh take on this tax threat. Yeah that's right. Well The addition of this text was published in nineteen forty Ben volume of the CCA G. and and the Dettori so's only relied on on three manuscript says basis but there have been some research not by me but does some Spanish Scholars regarding the manuscript some containing the unannymous circle mentally to ptolemies up a tennis matic's and the manuscripts happened to to to contain also this introduction to do ptolemy written by Frey according to title of. Of this tax in this version. And they found that there are some of the manuscript, the branches that are also important to to be able to reconstruct the. The The immediate ancestor, a fob of this version, and I also tried to to. Map diese manuscript sent to discover these manuscript that also incorporated some of these readings into into my translation, and they also found some other Versions of this taxed actually, I wrote article about this topic three years ago when did steal away awaiting for for hub publication had classical philology may be next year it will come out so. This is this is another version which which. Doesn't design this this this tax to to poor free. So it is anonymous, it is anonymous. Tax Thunder here it is just for larger compilation that is the doesn't have a title but. The the first couple of words site it's on the celestial disposition. So I just stopped cold this tax on Salad Hyundai select show this position. So CD. And this Taxed version gives the a slightly different version than the the poor free manuscript give and also raised my doubt regarding the ownership of a forgery. after this taxed because this is not ready poor free Stein how this the text is written and it's also so this introduction to to Ptolemies Potala's Matic's is. Is is a collection of the full text of different origin and the main core of this tax is a summary or an deputation from entire course of Athens and So it's possible. The tough course four was the the altering the tour century, but the equality possible that it was it has nothing to do with four Frio. Though with was it was written some time before the fourth century. So between the second and the fourth century. Okay. So so you chose to translate only the portions from the quote unquote poor free taxed that can clearly go back to the original work of definitions by tycoon of Athens who lived in the first or second century and So you've translated. All the different versions of that basically in this document and what it ends up being then as is a list of basic definitions of fundamental concepts in ancient astrology. So there's a few of those that I wanted to go through today a few the definitions that I thought were more interesting just to give people like a tech taste of the tax preview of the taxed and what they're gonNA. They're gonNA find So we're releasing the full PDF in the full PDF will be out there in the link in the description was released this episode. but here's the working sort of Word Document and what the PDF will look like. So the first definition I wanted to look at is the very first one that you translate it. It's just on diurnal and nocturnal. Stars. Someone to go ahead and read it. So this is from poor freeze version. Yeah well, actually what I go for version is both. Diversion of fall of the of the manuscript that. Is, signed the the attributed this tax deport free and the version in OCD because there are not big differences between these versions. So when there are some some discrepancies that then I put the up with some on footnotes to explain what the differences are. Okay. So what the text says is when they mentioned diurnal stars, they refer to Zeus and Kronos by saying that these stars belong to the Party of Helios since they do not often set and do not make many figures and they rejoice when they are operational during the day and in the domiciles of the diurnal stars. and. When they mentioned the nocturnal stars the speak about. Africa. Since they classify them as belonging to the lunar. Party. For the reasons for the reason, they are of many figures and they often arrive in setting and become obscured. By call the star of Hermes common since in whatever state he happens to be he assimilates to that state when he is a Morningstar he assimilates to. Helius but when he is an evening star to Selena. So, this is the basic definition of what contemporary astrologers are now referring to as the doctrine of sect and the distinction between daytime and night-time charts and between the daytime team or Party or sect of planets in the nighttime team or Party of planets. So you're translating sect here as party right the IT's right. The reason is very simple because the some the word that is high rises. means up school of thought or sacked, or party, or religion or something like that. That divides people. And I think in this context, it has a SORTA politic on message because there is a governing party and the opposition party all the time. So Diurnal Star Star in the governing party during the day and Nocturnal Star. Sorry. The opposition and of course, sobbed the situation just changes after after sunset. So I just want to Tampa size that in this case, it is not just about the sax like. Different camps of different toads, but it's also bought the sort of form. Of a political tension between the two parties of the stars. Like a political party of of WHO's in power versus WHO's out of power in some way. Okay So and then you have you contrast that with. this version that is in the basics or the texts that you're calling the basics, which has a much shortened or abridged version of that we're just says, they call Helius Kronos Zeus diurnal stars while Selena are as an aphrodite nocturnal and Hermes common for he turns to the side of those with whom he is configured. Yes configuring Actually, these basic says is interesting tax because I just mentioned this on the select show disposition that this tax that originally consisted of one hundred and thirty five chapters. This is a late compilation because some of the these chapters contain some versions of Masha laughs a it'll work on on interogations. Will translate soon. So this is the only known version of this. So Aerobic version is not extent or that we don't know anything about the Latin version of this tax. but So it's a part of this compilation is the is best parallel with. Poor. Raise some excerpts from entire causes. introduction, but the first couple of first dozen. Chapters are some They constitute a sort thumb on introduction to Estoril in the form that is even more basic than the most basic hellenistic introductions are like Bolas. So these are very simple our definitions and in these definitions on these support freeze definitions are reused recycled and sometimes rephrase than just wanted to to show. So with this document, I just wanted to show that. We have a full tradition of of for the poor freeze excerpts. this is a branch that has many many connotations and benny influences everywhere, and I just wanted to show that we can see the whole picture without taking luke to the. Various versions. Yeah, that's going to be really important here when we look when you keep going through the passages in the different tax, we look at today just showing how sometimes comparing the other variant branches, interpretations, and copies of the same passages. Sometimes gives you a better picture of perhaps what the original was or at least gives you some insight into the doctrines that these authors were trying to pass down. Yeah, and will also need to keep in mind Jetta while of course, for example, this basic later, compilation of actually a each of the earliest manuscript of this basics is basically the same as the earliest seven manuscript at the for he's version. So we are not. Just. Looking at some order more recent versions, but we also trying to to to put to get things that may be can help us understand the one which is nominally order but who knows what sort of changes had been introduced during the course of the centuries? Sure. Are It's one of the last things when the things I like about this passage and when things that's just important about and haikus WANNA mentioned before we move on as it doesn't just define it sort of like it does in the basics but it also you see embedded in it probably if not the original rationale something close to or part of the original rationale for the doctrine of sect where it both defines the concept. But also in passing, it says that the diurnal stars are. Put on that team in their group together because it says since they off, they do not often set and do not make many figures versus the nocturnal planets. It says that they are nocturnal. They they often arrive in setting and they become obscured. So Mars and Venus basically set as well as the moon set under the beams of the sun frequently and because they move more swiftly or more fast than the other planets they make aspects more often whereas the other planets, The Sun and Saturn Jupiter associated with the diurnal sacked because they don't set under the beams as frequently and they move more slowly. So they don't complete aspect with other planets as as frequently as regularly. Yeah. A might be the one distinction here that the text doesn't make it clear. That what's figures where we need to consider but I guess than this case when he to on the solar cycle to the Senate excite So the Figures, he referred to to the fieger, the configurations or aspects with the Sun. Okay. So like figures in terms like the stations like stationing retrograde or stationing direct. Other parts of the solar cycle who the the classical aspect some may be. May Be assigned here. So. Okay. So that's a good recurring thing in this is one of the reasons why this text has become. So important of the past ten or twenty years with different astrologers including Robert Schmidt and then later with me and Dimitri George and Benjamin Dykes and y. especially. For me and Dmitry large parts of our taxes were talking about this tax because it contains some of those original rationales as well as very early definitions of Western astrology. And I think he'd in Ben Dykes introductions to astrology. He pulls some definitions from entices well when comparing them to later authors from Apple, Machar So that's one of the reasons I'm excited about this, and you're making a great contribution by basically making these definitions in this translation publicly and freely available is now for the first time, anybody can read through these earliest definitions of the western astrological tradition and start to wrestle with them and come to terms with or form their own understanding of this tax rather than just relying on on somebody else's interpretation much is that if? People feel that they have some valuable insights regarding the tax or they have some feedback. The tight can can be Alton to. into sort of improvement, night can buy can touch the the texts that the translation or the with no to an daikin come up with some some new versions. So it is it is like a work in progress over the time. So we can say, okay, this is definite. This is the definitive translation on the definitive commentary and that's that say it can. It can be a change anytime it can morph into anything. Yet and I really appreciate that because unfortunately, while early in the process of like project hindsight in the nineteen nineties that they almost had a similar idea of doing preliminary translations and publishing those right away and releasing them to the astronauts. into their supporters who were financing the project later, it seemed like wanted to only publish things. Once he had final definitive translations and he had completed his entire reconstruction but as a result of that. Because all of this is so hard. It's always going to be a work in progress to some extent he wasn't able to finish what he started I. Think only. Published one of the final translation books of his planned thirty volumes series. So you're taking a different approach by putting all of this out early. Once you've translating it and then getting feedback from the community. I just that it's so simple site mentioned before their tens of thousands of pages, manuscript pages containing as Roger called tax. So it can easy to turn out data it is. So even lifetime is not enough to translate all of them. So. If someone wants to wait until everything just the pub builds up and comes together and you can see the whole picture together and every single less packed of the whole hunt historical development of something. Of which large part is is already lost. then. Of course, it cannot be completed in a lifetime. Sure? Yeah and that's the other part of your approach does different here is you're not you're trying to translate the text and translate the different versions of the text straight as they are as what the language says relatively literally, and you're not doing anything in the way of trying to reconstruct any original doctrines or things like that. You're just letting the texts speaker why don't believe in these sort of from Ideas in grand theories about the the originalist Gee, that was founded by someone big. Personality and every every later tax is just the sort of reflection of this original ideas. So if we take, for example, the history of sciences or history philosophy as as a contrast, we can see the doesn't exist. So there is not even if we say, okay, there was the founder of sort of Western astrology. This founder. Didn't come from nowhere. Right, they were always influenced by some earlier tradition that came before them that maybe they acted as a new starting point. So let's say like Plato or something like that. But then plato was himself influenced by LIKE SOCRATES? In, the pre socratic seminar Ronald. And, of course, some beaten the price aquatics were influenced by someone else. So we can we go back in history. So the it's just impossible I. Guess. Sure. Okay So So going back to the tax, one of the definitions that. attracted. A lot of commentary and a lot of. Controversy but a lot of discussion over the past I think ten years especially since Schmidt published his translation of entitled and Poor Free in two thousand, nine was the definition the basic definition that poor free and titus give of aspects which they call your translation on bearing testimony. Yeah Well. I don't think that we need to to give. A. Very big importance for the for the for the naming of this in Hellenistic customer laundry. So actually testing on a means that the. The distorts or the planet starring in some sort of configuration they can. They can see each other and that's how they can. They can give testimony or they can witness to each other that so simple. So this is what they do in a configuration arena aspect. The Greek term for aspect that you're translating his testimony here. The the testimony the word for testimonies mark. Julia. Actually and another version of DISA-. Happy mark to Ria the tide translated as battering testimony. looks like The tax from hedonistic astrology were in endpoint to conform. So in verse form, and that's why they often used some sort of synonyms. For the same very same concept and we don't have to to. Do I'll give too much away to the different words in this case. So even for example, the what what the the stars doing configuration is often expressed with a with a visual verb like. See Behold Observe scrutinize, or something like that. Of course, these are just the choices what the translator is to express this. Greek for that Greek for but. It doesn't look like there is much difference between the word. Usage. Okay but the word originally meant to to bear witness or to give testimony as if the planets are are looking at each other and there was some sort of visual or optical ideas underlying the true. Yes. Yeah. It's it's of course So it has stew side. So he five bear witness to to someone else that of course, other stock can be. While it he or she is acting public and there are some witnesses and these witnesses on on just the witnesses of crime but witnesses of some sort of celebration by car marriage. And, of course, if if there is a witness that he or she is also part of the story and not isolated from the other ones, that's why there is this this Halama stick come concept of running in devoid that can be magic only with only with the Moon and and this is a this when when it happens to a birth to a native. than. It is. It is really harmful because it means that there is important of the personality that is on predictable. Yet we'll get we'll do that definition later. Jeff I WANNA get to running in the void. Okay. So. Let's let's read this one definition. It's a long. It's worth it just to show how the author originally Titus defined the concept or attempted to outline the concept of aspects. So. It says, they call the mutual configurations of the stars bearing testimony. These figures are the try on the figure with five signs when there are three intermediate signs between the two affected signs. The Tetra gone the figure within four signs when are two intermediate signs between them the diameter, the figure within seven signs when there are five intermediate signs and the Hexagon figure three signs when there is one intermediate signed between them. So the configuration by try gone is sympathetic and beneficial and win a malefic is involved. He is less harmful. The Tetra gone will configuration is unpleasant and inharmonious and capable of causing distress. When a malefic is involved, the diametrical configuration is adversative but is even more pernicious when malefic is involved and the hexagon configuration is weaker. One must also see if the figures are perfect according to the degree and not only according to the sign the try gone in one hundred, twenty degrees the Tetra gone in ninety degrees, the hexagon and sixty degrees in the diameter in one hundred, eighty degrees for the stars are often configured by sign but not by degree. Yes. Yes. So that's that's it. So it's just a basic definition of I defines aspect by sign and partially based on how many signs apart Each of the planets would be depending on what signs they're located in than it's it talks about the quality or the nature of the aspects and whether it's more. Positive or more challenging or negative, and then finally it also says that aspects can be measured not just by sign but also by degree and it says that they can be configured by signed but no longer by degree. Yeah I guess that it was this. No longer was to the origin of translation by Schmidt who wanted to to develop into into a very specialized idea. signed base than than the degree base the aspect sore. Or, testing. Different from each other. But in this case, it is very simple. There is big. Sad that is. A configuration by sign under a smaller set that this country gration by degree bachelor this very tax doesn't tell anything about the importance of degree based configurations but I believe. In what follows here, the diversion of At some some some ideas about the importance of degree based. Of configurations. Okay, we do WANNA. Read that part or. The basics. Okay. So just It is at the end of this disallowed longest show chapter. So we just read the poor free version in the basics. I? Guess this is the end of this surf. You just go down a little bit because it is very. A. Okay while this one. Okay. Right here. A rights yes. That's. That's it. So this version, the basics it says also see if the figures are perfect according to the degree and not only according to the sign since the star is configured by degree are more powerful than those configured by sign only the okay in any defines aspects after that. So this was the other or the leader interpretation or or a variant of this whole textual textual tradition, and the notion that perhaps at least in this version of the basics that the degree based aspects were more powerful than just being configured by sign. Yes. That's so I guess that this this explains the did the main difference even if this is a. whistle. We don't do it for for sure that it was just too late idea developed after the after writing the portfolios version, but it was somewhere before in the in the tradition. So that's why I just find it important to to publish the the various versions to see the whole picture how they how they. Made them into some sort of concept. Yeah in this this passage. This whole definition from Anti Qasim. Poor free about the difference between signed based and degree based aspects. I think was a recurring theme in Hellenistic. Astrology. and. And we see clearly defined here in the context of just aspect an aspect by sign by degree both being relevant I. Think there was probably a similar mindset that they applied the houses where houses could be defined both by sign as well as by degree. In that, you have to pay attention to both, and while this isn't explained as clearly some of earlier authors, it seems really clear that by leader in the tradition by the time of firm ICUs and re Torius that they really clearly trying to pay attention to both whole sign houses, which is houses by sign as well as quadrant houses are sometimes equal houses which would be houses Bhai degree. Yeah it is quite possible. The winning to reminded did. Most of the surviving chorus groups are only use the sign of of the stars. So the planets so they don't have any decrees and and So, we shouldn't forget about the fact that they didn't have these sophisticated methods of of calculating planetary longitudes. Down to the degree. So maybe that was too laborious So they were just happy with with signed as the aspects In base the House divisions, duties this this expression. Yeah but of course Doug, they had some ideas about what could make into more precise a calculation for. Sure. So Your point then as is that most of the time in terms of the surviving evidence in terms of the surviving horoscopes, it seems like they're just calculating planetary placements by sign and using whole sign houses and probably Holstein aspects but with texts like this at least from relatively early on there is at least an ideal that perhaps if you could calculate things by decree, that would be a useful additional piece of information to factor into the interpretation. Yeah So this is also important the subject to see what what, what is therion what is practice because there's we can see some discrepancies between theory and practice. So theory's always more sophisticated far more sophisticated than. Actual real life practice seems to be Because So there are the resist of of different techniques, India radical tax. But what we see in actual case, scopes while there are not too many different techniques. used. But I guess that that's why we need to discover both the theoretical side end the the practical side because may be the reason why they didn't use some things in practice was simply that they didn't have the time for these calculations, for example, but that was an idea that they would like to reach that level. Sure. Yeah. That makes sense and that's a whole thing we could get into it will save that for another discussion or another episode, the And I and I did some of that in my episode on the origins of the House division debate last year so I can link to that. At some point as well. So the other let's see other definitions. Once once they outlined the basic aspect definition, one of the other definitions I wanted to look at. where lecture translation was on what you translate as the concept of domination. And I liked that you used that as a translation convention and that is another point. It's just you're helping to establish translation conventions here for your translations and in some instances you're retaining and you're using translation conventions that had been used or or introduced by others and and other instances you're going against that or you're coming up with your own translation conventions in order to more correctly convey the sense of the taxed. Yeah but won't. Can Be always debated. So So translation conventions are are questions never be settled ones foot to due to the contentment of every everybody. So a lot of people say. They are disturbed by by Words like Helius or Selena or the translation literal translations of the the names of the signs or The names of the aspects. For example, they would prefer to see the dwyer now northern Terms but. This is one thing and the other thing is that there can be lots of synonyms that the translator can use in. DIFF-. So. I always open to any sort of suggestion. So I can I can I can translations if there is something that does someone can convince me to to change this this term do something else. But I tried to to to follow the footsteps of the previous set translate translator stuff from the how mystic tax but sometimes I fat I needed to to change the term because side. So data day convey did right meaning in this case. So for example, this domination while actually the original Greek, a term for this is the APODACA Tei which has something to do with with the being. In the Yeah well. Owned tensing. Upon the ten th because FBI just means like a pawn duggan means means ten or Tonton Dia. Yeah. That's it. So it's a it's a it's something that can be expressed in English and in a in a natural way to it's was weird and then schmitter wanted to to to use the expression decimation. Data decimation, in English. Languages are I'm also in Latin means something very different. So it means like a sort of punishment the temporary beverage Tanta soldiers is. Clear Kia of Europe, I lost the battle or teacher they simply. Has Sitting negative or like extreme connotations. Yeah. Extreme connotations that are not used in this in this case. So this this in this case, this is just the. This is just being in the tense sign in from from from the from. US Star. Yeah. of overcoming actually. Right, and then the planet that's in the tenth sign relative to another planet having a special influence or being exert a very powerful influence of another planet. So that's why I argued for domination as the translation of this, and later saw that Holden had translated that way as well. So those happy to see you using that here Let's let's read the definition really quickly in the we can keep discussing it. So in the poor free version, it says the star being in the tenth sign said to dominate and overcome the. Star being in the fourth sign for example, the star that happens to be in the balance dominates the star being in the goat horned one and the star being in the goat horned one also dominates the star being the Ram. So in other words, in the example, it saying that a planet in Libra is is dominating or is in the ten th relative to plan it in capricorn versus a planet and Capricorn is in the tenth or dominating a planet that is in areas because it's in the tenth sign relative to. Yes Exactly yeah. Okay. So this is tied into the the notion of overcoming which actually the next definition after this, but it's just a sign based aspect of planet that is ten signs for another plan, and if it's a malefic planet that's in that position than it's usually interpreted as being. Very negative condition whereas if it's a Ben Affleck that's in the tenth signed relative to another planet. It's usually interpreted as being a very positive condition in authors like videos, Fallon's, for example, where he uses this sometimes or versions of this in his chart example. Unjust, that against this on overcoming guns on domination is a very early concept because there are some tax Attributed to to Dorothea centennial on. For example, them and Phoenix Mountain is also has these descriptions. About a planetary configurations and in the intersection hab-habitats run. There are. Detailed descriptions. So what happens if if the planet a is dominating and what happens it planet B is dominating so having. A a square aspect of between. I'd say Mercury and Mars is not the same if they changed place. And if The for we look at these definitions, we can see the Derek Cohen sister of these definitions on discordant sister could while have been neck Habsburg seaways. Yeah in that's that's actually the the name Sake of translation project is the the horizon project a because that was the name actually of a famous lost book of definitions that was attributed to Pettus, right? Yes. It sounded like a good. Name for this project. Yeah So yeah. So maybe some of these early definitions go back to one of those early authors and then later authors drew on them and incorporated them into their work. alright. So that that that definition is connected to incomes right before. although sometimes I almost think that definition of domination should have come after the definition of overcoming. But immediately after that here in poor free, we have the definition of overcoming and it says. Every star that is situated in the right hand try gone Tetra gone or hexagon overcomes the one on the left since he is moving toward the other one. For example, a star being in the goat horned one, which capricorn overcomes the one being in the bull in a traditional and the one being in the ram in the Tetra. Gonnell and the one being in the fishes in a hexagonal figure while he is overcome. mystically himself by the one being in the balance, the one being in the Virgin and the one being in the Scorpion. So it saying that overcoming can occur by a triangle which a train, a square or sex tile by any planet that is earlier in Zodiacal order it overcomes planet that is later in Zodiacal order. And then it goes on to say. They say overcoming more powerful if the stars are either try gone all or Tetra Onnell for the star overcoming in this way stronger and if he is rising or even pivotal than if he has been ethic, he indicates an outstanding birth. But if a Malefic, he indicates an insignificant one and then there's a little stray sentence that repeats the earlier statement says in general every star that is on the right overcomes the one on the left whom he approaches. One against the TUB, this sentences three, four and five belong to A. Part, of this tax had to to revise and. And restore from the different manuscripts because said, there were just the different virgins expressing these. The same cool idea in different ways send it was not wasn't a hundred person to clear what the a critic addition wanted to express. So I need to cut the different versions and against them I was sort of successful with the reconstructing the original meaning of the passage. I put my reconstruction in the footnote, Sundar de Indications of the reading of the manuscripts as well. Right. So so down in the footnotes, you give the different, you give the different variant readings and you say which manuscript says this versus this other manuscript tradition says changes the sentence to be more like this, and that's how you had this sort of running commentary about the tax that you're drawing on. Maybe these commentaries not ready interesting for up for for the reader just wants to to to understand taxed, but otherwise it is. Important to see because So this is this is not the the Renault water that can climb okay i. knew every about talented stick without what this passage means. So there can be always debated issues like. Whether, this reading is correct with that reading is correct and there are some differences just by a using a different inter punctuation. Sometimes, you know they're they have a very whole didn't functions in in the manuscript. Santa just. Changes the meaning so. I just want to want to give the reader's up provided they I interested in in these sort of of questions. To give them the the the the opportunity to decide whether they would like to follow my footsteps. So they have different opinion and they think the Tokai should be interpreted in another way. Yes because sometimes, that actually makes a real difference how you read a passage or whether you go with one very interesting or another can have very concrete practical interpretive differences in terms of if astrologers are trying to drawing these texts and use them to practice strategy, they might. Use the technique one way if they read one version versus they might use the technique different way if they read another version and we'll actually get to a really striking instances of that when we get to the definition of corruption or maltreatment here in just a few definitions the I. Guess this is the best time exempt before. Sa- before we get there when to read the Definition of. Void, of course. So which in Greek, it was originally called a running in the void and this is number seventeen in the taxed, and it says it is called running in the void when Selena is applying to no one either by sign or by degree either by figure or adherence, and she is not about to make an application or conjunction within the next thirty degrees. Such births are unpredictable and unable to develop. So, this is the ancient and probably oldest ancestor or version of the modern concept of the void, of course, Moon except what's always been striking to people over the course of the past ten or twenty years since some versions of this definition were I translated from. Hellenistic authors is that it defines it as being the moon, not completing an exact aspect either a conjunction or any of the other aspects within the next thirty degrees, which is actually a somewhat rare occurrence although it does happen from time to time. But I guess. This shouldn't surprise beep assume much because we are talking about. NATO. Context in this case in of course this is a very, very negative indication for a native to to have Muna running in devoid so it means that to somehow the postman of the Post woman or the force personnel of this up planetary influences just the a just isolated from the rest of the party. So they said, Moon is supposed to to bring. Forth deep the the influence of the planet send, and if the if the moon is just the confined to place where nobody can. Bear. Witness to her on something that they part of the part of the of the lower part of the dispirit or part of the fate. This is separated from the rest of it. So it is not that the whole building, but the there is a separate part that that is moving on its own. Okay. So in the Greek term is a Kendra MEA, which means like running in the void or moving in the emptiness or something like that, right? Yeah, or void of course. So of course, it is this about course or running on this. prefix, which means so void amty. So it is moving in the emptiness. Running in the tennis. So. That's really important because then it means that when sometimes you go back and read ancient interpretations of void of course me like from firm accustom attorneys. That are very negative. This is not something that is happening like every other day according to the this. Hellenistic. Version of the definition but instant something that happens somewhat infrequently when the moon doesn't complete any aspect within basically a forty eight hour or two day period yes. What if someone just tries to develop another version more comprehensible version of this definition than they will find that it can be defined in in the way. For, the first moon needs to be a needs to be assigned diverted to to every other planet. So, this is the first. Condition and the condition is that the Muna has to be has to have the the. Defuse the decrees possible in the sign. So And it wasn't. Observed by me but but I've. Reader. Of Mine actually that why the the medieval Definition. Of Of course, emphasized as being at the end of the sign in this case, being at the beginning of the sinus emphasize because the moon. The moon enters a new sign that averted to every other planet than at the first moment should becomes running in devoid and this this just continues on deal she reaches the same degree. as any other planet have a has in in another sign. One of the back in two thousand and ten when. Dimitri George. So actually it's ten ago the summer, Dmitri George Benjamin Dykes and I got together for week and demeter had translated a bunch of these definitions and we were going to. Look at them ourselves and see how the compared to Schmidt's translations and interpretations, and try to come to our own conclusions about them, and that was a really important turning point for the three of us. One of the interpretations of the observations that Ben made that I always liked was that the this definition avoid of course is almost as if you were doing a set of equal houses from the degree of the. Moon and then all of the having all of the planets being in one of the places in aversion to the moon according to those that equal house system in a way in a way of thinking about it, which would be like the second or the sixth through eighth or the twelfth why this is the same the A it's a it's a different approach. Yes but it just want to remind Lovers found out therapy cady throw Jay. There is a very similar a concept and this. Rest restful. Jay. Which is the federal a moon or the fear of planet that is not just the running in the void or having a void of course by having void of course, in a federal way, which means that the P O'Shea some most of course. As. In version from the beginning to the end of the sign, which is very similar similar to this hellenistic concept, and of course, he also indicates the same basically that there is one part of the. Of the of the fate end of the corrector that is unpredictable. develop, and so it can be addressed that with. Okay Brilliant. Let's move on to some other definitions. The next one I went to look at really quickly is the definition of. What you call neutralization. I've called or others have called counteraction. So it says. It is called neutralization when the diurnal stars occupy the domiciles or the expectations of the Nocturnal Stars or win the nocturnal stars do so with those of the diurnal stars and then there's the Co semi colon and says, or it gives an alternative version or definition of neutralization. It says or when although the stars lying on the signs are productive of good. The masters of the signs being unproductive are in corruption. And there's a lot packed and they're. So there's like two different definitions and then the second one is a little little complicated by taking for granted some other concepts So, what was the term underlying this or what was the Greek term? Antenna Lucy's hand. It means that that Resolving something in the opposite way. While, of course, a counteraction translation just I couldn't imagine that the counteraction can this. This can be used as a verb so contract. So it's like Said It just sounded too too weird for me. So after while after experimenting with the Discount Action, I just settled with with the neutralization because this is this is. What the what the master does with the with the with the ruled planet. So the route planet has has an agenda and the just the override by the part of the of the of the of the domicile monster. So that's right basic. So in the second ver second part of the definition of the second version of it, it's talking about basically in generally speaking planet that is well placed especially, let's say bye bye sign by House but then it's ruled by another planet. It's the the sign ruled by another planet and the ruler of that sign is poorly placed in a bad house and therefore it drags down the first planet because the ruler of that sign is in bad condition by for example, being unproductive. So that's that's a criminal goes I think right? He has this right. So a criminal gross the places that are criminals to go to places like the Sixth House or the Twelfth House. So it's basically defining a situation where a planet is ruled by a planet that is placed in one of the difficult houses he has. That's right. While of course, it depends on the context how we can interpret this these sort of conditions. Those you see the results another part of this Sunday finishing that just says that the a finally the the business of A star is managed by by by a Cadet Star that this. That has opposite interests because they belong to different parties. Then of course, there is some sort of counteraction or neutralization. Of the agenda? Diverted somehow it's like hijacking. if it's ruled by a planet, that's the opposite sect. True. Okay So that US into the very next definition that comes after that, which is the definition of what you're calling corruption and his sometimes another taxed in my book I call it. I think following Schmidt Yeah this is this is the lexicon definition of it so. Of course everybody did most. Popular Lexicon to to use for the Greek languages daily dose. CAJONES saw accident but dyslexic was actually developed for the attic Greek. The Attica prolific writers of the. Fourth Century BC, and of course, it was lighter augmented to to incorporate some some of the tax some of the words from later. Period for Greek, language but Greek language actually has a history of more than two thousand years if we just take. The soap with pre mortem Greek into consideration if we take modern Greek into consideration that we can easily talk about the almost three So two thousand years, two, thousand and three thousand years of course, I'm talking about. So of course, it's impossible to up such big dictionaries. There are some of the dictionaries dealing with different periods like a dictionaries for the New Testament or patristic lexicon saw or things like of the different ages and sometimes. translators need to work together with these lexicon not just rely on leaders called John's which is. kind of outdated lexicon from from some perspectives. and. Sometimes, it also happens that there are some words that are not in the lexicon at all. So I just bumped into. A word that as some. So it's it's easily interpreted because it's just the the revision formed from from the active but actually, this is just not found in the lexicon. Some may be this was the reason violence manuscript says it was also authored to express something totally from the context actually yeah, and maltreatment. So match Whitman is the is the lexicon on definition of this the latest conscience. A definition of this. Term Kako says. which is coming from the from the verb Kako, which means to three to to hall. To, ill three. Something like that took abuse or some us. Yes. Yeah. But but Kacoos is a is a is an abstract now and and Kacoos can also happen by by just the pink being at the at bats play said the the bad timing. In. I'm not mad rated by by anyone just matt rated by being somewhere that I am not supposed to be at. To plant because if we just go through the definition, we will see that in some cases cackles happens by. metaphysics, but sometimes just by bet location. Rights Prettier reason why you wanted to go with corruption that you as as the definition is that sometimes while it's true that it is a condition where a malefic is doing something to another planet so that you could say that it's like maltreating at and that would be a good term sometimes in the definition we're about to read it's just a planet being poorly positioned in it of itself and it's not necessarily being harmed due to another planet per se but it's just a condition that the planet has and that's why you felt like corruption might be a better term to use. Yes. Maybe I'm of course that people can sense the difference between. blend a med retain or abuse the planet be or planetary corrupting Planet. B. But we if we just. Remembered that in the in the Greek form. So both these ideas are incorporated make a mistake. Yeah that sounds like a good thing to keep in mind slits three, the definition. So it says. It is called corruption when a star is the target of raise cast by the malefic six or he is enclosed by them or he is in the application or adherence of malefic or he is in diameter with a malefic or he is overcome or domicile mastered by a badly situated malefic while he is in decline in the unproductive places. For if he is in the productive places, he is ameliorated by place by the place and the corruption of the corrupted star is removed so that that last little bit is like a new sentencing in previous translations by like Dmitry by Schmidt was not included. So where did that last? Part of the sense come from. Well, as I said that the to bunches of phone manuscripts for the report for his version and. One of these. So one group doesn't contain the sentence, but there is this other group that is found in the scripts of the own the Selah shoved position. So they have this So you say in their footnotes that manuscript a D. M. S. NV or what you're calling that and at the point where it just stipulates the negative condition yet. Poor free description actually. Yes. There are some of the squirts that does still have this this finishing sentence. Okay got. It so. Part of the issue with this definition, it's really important tying together and it's taking for granted a bunch of other concepts that were already defined previously like having array cast. By malefic and what that means or being enclosed by two MALEFIC. which is when a planet is, is sort of sandwiched in between two malefic planets either junction or by their raise It's also talking about application or adherence, which is when a planet is applying to another planet within three degrees of exact degree based aspect, right? Yes send dent bodily also because adherence. Here refers to bodily. Conjunction. Right. So that's something that's GonNa throw off some modern readers when they I read this taxed don't is there separating the conjunction and they're treating the conjunction as a class unto itself, and then they're treating the other aspects of the sex tile square trying and opposition as being in their own category that's different from a from a conjunction. Yeah. But Tha, there are different expressions used by different holter Sunday against that that's why would be a very important task and very important projects to. To give not just a commentary to this poor for re taxed up possibly stacks but the. Possibly to get us. Oh, translation that incorporates also similar witnesses of the same. Goal radius of entire costs. So what I want to say is that that would so it would be important to have a commentary that gives to just explains what is written in the taxed as the way I'm just doing now we just doing now but also highlights how these concepts were used by different odors by other waters not belonging to the tradition of entire costs. For example, I just want to mention something and I don't think that we need to go into the details that that there is this this ha-gyu, dumb concept of costing raise or hurling grace sole throwing raise at somebody or more. Beings from by race. Yeah. and and the definition here in the INDISP- tax than than the indy and in detects the deriving from hearsay that it is the. The Star in the last that that a Ray. On the planet on the right. So it is basically the the the anti thesis of the overcoming. So. underwrite down. I'm just over coming Don't overcome may because I would cut the rate on you. something like that but it seems that any in the So the original idea of costing ray was from right But that was just a re conceptualization by entire Choson everybody following him. To to say the, it is the planet on the left that that cost array. So that's why they should be above fully explained using the over the available sources, and of course, this commentary could be augmented or updated upgraded. As, new witnesses untaxed. Just A. discovered. Yeah. I mean. It's partially a large part of what I tried to do in my book in the House Division or not the House of the aspects chapter where I took two translation of some of these definitions and then broke them down and commented on what they seem to mean and how they're used differently in some authors and I spent a good deal of time talking about. Hurling raise or casting array of the issues with that where it's used in two different ways depending on what authors using it. Yeah. All right. So Let's on corruption, and that's an important definition. There's one other one that might be relevant to. To mention really quickly, which is just the Very long section. On the Domicile Master of the Nativity as well as the Lord of the Nativity and the predominant. pause really quickly for a SEC WE AL.. Just before we just going to that I guess that this is a this is a chapter that while just park down. A lot of people's imagination but about the importance of these different. Of these different dominators of of the of the native. But actually, it seems that this sort of conceptualization nation is only known from from the tradition of the entire costs. So this sort of of partitioning there is the Lord of the native, not that there is the though mistime auster endeavors this pre dominator. So these three bosses of So this is something special to entire. Cosentino tradition. Special in what sense I mean it seemed like the idea of like the overall ruler of the chart was something that was discussed in different authors. and. Of course, not the only sarin mustard that these the cadets tastes than the on the predominate dominator. That is the applicator was is the Dow to a in in many on hand dukes of course, Madonna deterred one this that the Lord of nativities. So this is always something that this. Is a separate one or is it just a function of the assigned muster just to take an example? So this is this is a related issue. Yeah So I talked about that in episode two, hundred, five of the astrology podcasts titled the Master of Ativity Finding the ruler of the chart. But I didn't really read a definition of at the time in this is the actual text that I was drawing on primarily in addition to consulting with some other taxed but it's the clearest one of the clearest definitions of this concept in the Incheon tradition. So I don't Wanna read the entire thing because it's actually somewhat long. Thing, but it's basically the earliest set of definitions or one of the earliest set of definitions for how to find or at least to attempt to find something like the overall ruler of the. Chart. All right. So let's move on. So those are basically those are some of the definitions from and hikers sir, from Paul. Frey and people can read that full document Now in Opeta link to it in the description for this episode, there's a text I wanted to look at just really briefly though for the rest of this episode before we wrap up just to give people an idea if people a taste for some of the other texts that you're translating, which are really interesting and really important. So one of the other ones is rhetorical excess on these systematic interpretation of nativities and this is Another one of the texts that you've released where this is pretty much a complete translation. Of early summary that pretorious must have made or somebody around that time around the fifth or sixth or seventh century about how election astrology was done and what you're supposed to pay attention to a in the hellenistic astrological tradition. Yeah but that when we talk about this system interpretation of interceptions. So this is nate DVD's but there is another tax of serie similar with is about exceptions Omar sorry I'm like confusing the tax we're about to talk about. So we're we're going to talk about the one that's about. How to interpret a needle chart and it's unique for that for that reason, because this is ridiculous on the systematic interpretation of nativities and it's about Most of the Hellenistic authors, we like handbooks where they talk about individual topics and how to interpret charts in the context of those topics like children or. Marriage or travel or what have you but there's not really any taxed except for this one that summarized until you had to put everything together to do a full consultation. That's right. That's right. The resides under some interesting features of this text. anyways. Okay What are some interesting features? Well first thing is that So why used the the the common germs deal prediction that people normally think that the first thing is too hot to delineate attacks than than to go to predictions but it seems that the after on initial evaluation of planets on the just wants us to to move immediately to work predictions actions. And then at the end, we go back to d nations. which is really surprising I. Guess. So. You have the name rhetoric in quotes here. So you think that this tax even though it's sometimes attributed to with his version of it that rhetoric may have authored. You think it was actually written by another author. He actually I believe that the tax, the origin version was. was altered by a unannymous. S Roger. So people with the tie I attribute everything to this. Obscure Person But actually I guess that this this imperialist torture was responsible for composing the original version of the tax, which is I believe which is version one here on this is the first. Translation in the first So it hasn't been edited any anywhere. So I've just worked from a manuscript directly to translate them, which is nice because I needed to to to do the same job as editor in just to compare the different reading center, decide which reading I should constitute the on the genuine one. So I guess that this was a written by the fifth century by the some imperial torture, and then later tennis rogers just developed it. Further. So there are three versions here appended and edited together okay. And these are the. So this is everything that we have about this tax actually. Okay. So you translate three different versions of it in this PDF that you've released and. One of the think I just want this I want to highlight this that doubt. Robert Schmidt already had translated the deterred version and also A. Translated some portions of the second version so the diversion have forward to been translated in. But this is A. SYNOPTIC edition here the return nation. So this is the first time that the first aversion has been translated. It's the first time that all three have been compared translated in a in a parallel version just. So you've got the three different versions of the text here in three different paragraphs paragraphs, three columns basically that you can read side by side and it's really interesting reading the different versions because you can see the differences in this gives are released stark example where sometimes like version one will keep going for example, talking about like what Ptolemy says to do but then version two version three will break break off and won't contain that section. Or later there's other sections where version two version three will keep going and talking about something but then version one will not contain that section. So it's kind of a really good example, sometimes textual comparisons and some of the frustrations with attempting to reconstruct the idea of reconstructing an original taxed because sometimes if one were to attempt to do that, you'd have to make kind of a judgment call about what was in the original versus what what wasn't, and you may or may not be right. Yeah. That's Always frustrating because sometimes We have. Different? Tastes. Than medieval readers had so dubbed there are hundreds of different versions of of. Inception about either no Politika questions, for example. And you see that this is the first. This is the only surviving systematic a treatment of how to help allies nate DVD's and and and even so ascribe that had you know the original version one attend just gave up after after table For just somehow knew the the rest of the manuscript just lost, and then that's why he was. Unable to cope them but sometimes, it just happens that the resume the result. There's a chapter and the. And the the describe just the rights done. Okay. Okay. Look at this this chapter in in another book Blah Blah Undo will never find this other book or there are some describes that leaves some pages or some paragraphs blank. In case, they find the dementia script they need later but of course, they would never. Find It. So that's why we don't have this the text. Okay. one of the things that's interesting about this tax to me is that the authors or some of the versions will will mention in passing some the earlier authors that they're drawing on so that it's clear that they're kind of synthesizing the texts of earlier authors like media, violins, and Claudius, Ptolemy Dorotheos in. Switzerland, it's an attempt to bring together into a systematic approach some of those the techniques, those different earlier authors outlined. Yeah well, I mean this this was sort of a personal preference for disorder to to choose valance hand and. Dorothy s Ptolemy for these. Reasons. And of course, this is not. So this part of the reason why why these are the real popular and now where where none authors even now because the ones who were just neglected and and not not revert by any and later author. So just a gut forgotten. Of astrological texts that didn't survive, and then there's certain authors that were that became popular for different reasons and so their texts got propagated and and copied over again and sometimes referenced, and maybe those references caused other later authors to seek them out and try to preserve their texts or different parts of them whereas other other authors got overlooked for whatever reason. Yeah. Sometimes, it is just the question of chance. So for example, there is this Best Roger, coulter, Giuliani Suffo-, Loud Shah. WHO's. Two pieces two chapters translated recently, and to must have been really notable in remarkable and and. wise But unfortunately, we've got the dozen of fragments and that's all. just pieces of it or even Dorotheos who's got to be one of the most influential astrological authors in history we don't actually have the full original Greek text of Dorothy Dorotheos. The primary treatment of Dorotheos we have is like a Arabic translation of a Persian translation of the original Greek taxed as well as a bunch of different Greek fragments and quotations paraphrase from later authors. Yeah. But I think the So you can even if if we don't have the complete Dorothea, some must be like ninety ninety, five person that we do have red. Horse Audi pointed good form is lost, but may be this is easier to understand now in these the translate now. Sure. Yes let's let me read just a few quick excerpts from this text. Sula or read from version one. So at the beginning at says after you have ascertained the positions of the stars to the degree, the nature of their signs, their bounds, according to the Egyptians their try guns, participations, expectations, and depressions, their deck INS and the faces of these decades, their individual degrees and bright degrees their twelve parts, their latitudes in reference to the winds. And the steps there liquidities that is their distances from the ecliptic, just as from the Meridian their appearances, additions or subtractions, or stationing, and according to the degree, the core risings of the fixed stars that are close to them with reference to their magnitude wins and temperaments. Then come to our marker and the mid Heaven and the pivots succeed and declines to the degree. And when when you have already ascertained the seven stars in respect to their places cast the seven lots that are joined in the introduction of the book and ascertain the appearances of Salei that is to say the conjunction or whole moon before birth. Her third seventh and fortieth days and our applications and separations, longitude and latitude. So just outlines like a string of all of the stuff that you're supposed to calculate and know, and it's interesting that this author going back to our earlier conversation this is probably coming from the leader part of the Hellenistic tradition like the fifth or sixth century, and there is a emphasis where they're at least trying to emphasize tread calculate things if you can to the degree of possible. Yes definitely. I guess that this this is why I'm here to to the always emphasized. Otherwise by don't think it would make sense in the context of early taxed. Yeah well, it's IT'S A. It's definitely a development by the time of ritory us and to lesser extent even firm Meka's there's more of there's clearly a trend where they're moving more towards trying to calculate things to the degree and that being like an ideal to aspire to. Certainly. Earlier in the tradition, it seems like the sign based approach was more common and that's one of the things that's caused issues in terms of understanding what the actual practice was. Sometimes the disconnect like you were saying earlier between the theory versus the the practice. Yeah. But even if we just put up to side this this, the degree based considerations still I wondered how many bomb traditional astrologers. Such a detailed hell investigation of planetary conditions. Sure. Yeah. That's a good point Okay. So back to the texts than it says then. Setting the general fixity of the birth and the pivots succeed and declines to the degree examined the domicile master of the birth according to the for aforementioned methods. Then, after considering and calculating the conception cast the leading and following Trigano, Tetra Connell and hexagon all sides of every star to the degree note them down separately keep them at hand in order that when during the interpretation of the circumnavigations of the stars we are making the adherence is we should not only take the Trigano, Tetra, Connell Hexagon, all sides according to the sign, but also to the degree for they are more cogent and we we had a discussion earlier about the translation of cogent. Especially in the signs of short and long ascension. After, down, all these said sides examined the lifetime from the domicile master of the selected releaser. But when you are making the circumambulation of all the Stars Do not forget that the adherence of the stars that our marker, the Mid Heaven and the lots that occur with the fixed stars have enormous performance in accordance with their temperaments especially, if both of them have the same wind. and then he goes on quotes a long passage from Ptolemy. About. What the stars? Yes, it's it's about the The nature of the fixed stars as related to to the planets while actually wish you see the found the the the instructions to say that, tell you need to to to have absorbed to fum prediction relation I before. Before diving into the details. About the the the topic something native. So I guess that this is really reasonable because. On one hand. This is sort fall on day S- consideration, and also on the other hand, it's also Predicting up periods. Or A in respect now, looking at different periods of a native. Out Can work without a saying the topic south. Indian. Nation on on one hand and on the other hand. Dick can also be used as sort of correcting the the the time of birth. Right. So it's talking about doing circumnavigations, which is primary directions here, and it's doing them from different especially important places such as the ascendant, the mid Heaven, the lot of fortune, The sun and moon in the actually it says, the remaining five stars would says do your circum ambulation from everything but then it gives specific topics for if you start from the ascendant, says that the resulting primary directions periods will give indications for the reckoning of life and physical ailments, and you should use primary directions or circumambulation from the Mid Heaven which will indicate things relative to activity reputation, livelihood and children, and so on and so forth. It's sort of hearkens back to PTOLEMIES. Maybe you're talking about PTOLEMIES instructions in book three where he talks about doing the length of life treatment first so that you know. So you're not making like wild predictions not for somebody that won't to see it. Yes. This is this is part of this is a part of the story and other part is Tom before you have some nice detailed description of different periods of fly than you can. You can just compare it to to do the actual Of. The of the native and Dandy can make some minor corrections and lifestyle in the. Timing of birth maybe. Okay. So so it has that long section on on primary directions or circumambulation, and then eventually moved into different section. It says you must judge each of the stars by their peculiar nature, according to their adherence to the stars both the wandering and the fixed ones and the ascending and descending nodes and according to the qualities of the bounds, and you must give a judgment about how they described the outcomes in this matter. After. This subject make the ascensions of the signs in accordance with the proper zone, the periods of the stars according to their greatest middle and minor years first by making days than months and finally years, and then after this subject examine the subjects of the conception, the childbirth and the rest as they are given below in the table, which is. which is missing great. Okay. So the textures like breaks off at this point here and when when things like when it goes into this section and version one, it's not citing authors. But what's interesting is in version two and inversion three, it actually starts citing where some of this is from and it says in the parallel thing at the peril paragraph, it says, you must take the essentials of the signs and ptolemies methods according to the handy tables and in the methods of the Egyptians according to the Egyptian tables and imbalances methods according to balances. Tables. And then it goes on it says then make the examination concerning parents following the methods of Ptolemy. Mallon's which you have in brackets and Dorotheos and following other ancients from the lot lots of parents and concerning siblings. And following Ptolemy from the third place in the lots of siblings. So it's interesting in the second version and to lesser extent the third version, how it citing specific authors that it's drawing on. Yeah but it is possible that. Actually the deal. The really original version had this. Just the dispersion the. Is the closest to the origin not in time, but this is not the origin at one. Britain by. Fifth Century astrologer it can needs to happen because if we take the Compendium. Attribute to rate Torius, we will see that. Even the. The most extensive form is fully. So the the names of the is the altar Seraphin surprised and substituted with some. Very. Very Blank expressions like one vise burston or someone or something like that. Why we can see from versions that there was a name originally hub just to give an example, a M-, you might remember or other hub bad readers. People. This episode can remember the the episode of the the, the chapter offer Ray Torius about the about the activities and resume the resume. A short the plan. Cool tickets from a Nubia. Some some of their views of a Nubia wired expressed how to have this, the the the activities or what what the native Dos by looking at. The different planets and here in the Virgin on that weekend, we can read in translation we consider Talk Nubia Saz Dis but actually this is not the original version. This is a ninth century revision what we have actually in the in the earliest. In the manuscript of the earliest version is just something that doesn't make sense. There is a word that this doesn't mean anything. So there was something and someone a scribe or someone in editor just. just Re some some some names from the tax for for no reason. Okay got. So towards the end just to skip a little bit but there's this nice little section I like it's talking about timing techniques again at the end and it says. In version one is just like on at breaks off but version two contains one of these last paragraphs in it says before all examined the ruler of the year and his position and testimonies, and whether he sees his domicile and how he was situated in the birth. So there it's talking about doing annual projections and identifying the perfected the ruler of the sign that the perfectionist come to as the Lord of the year. Then it says then examined the our marker of the year based on the degree of Haliotis return that is from the exact hour of the substitute. The learn revolution actually rice was talking about the slow revolution. It's probably drawing on this sounds like gum face basically like Dorothea says, treatment of doing annual perfected Lord of the year also doing the solar return chart at the same time. Okay. So then it says that examined the our marker of the year based on the degree of the son's return that is from the exact hour of the birth, substitute the stars regarding the our marker and it's lured. So it's talking about the stars aspect ing the ascendant in the solar return chart, as well as the ruler of the ascendant in the solar return chart is being particularly important. Then, and this is the part that I like It says then make the distributions of the lots of fortune and diamond reform in spirit in the manner of gallons, the transmissions and acquisitions of the stars as balance does and then make the descent as the Egyptians do, and after these make the distribution of the year so that the first little bit was talking about doing. Dyke. Releasing from the lot of spirit and fortune just like balance does in book four of the Anthology. So I like this because sometimes I've heard people say that like Valentine's is the only author that talks about to dyke releasing. But in fact, not only was balanced drawing on earlier author named Abraham for Sudak releasing but he get cited here by some later authors writing in Greek. As one of those techniques that you should employ in your overall, if you're trying to do a comprehensive chart analysis. Actually the the author of this this. was. A fan of flattens. Maybe maybe the earliest one. Maybe there at least one shirt will probably not because he is balanced lived in the middle of the. Second Century in this person's living in like the late fifth or early sixth century than somebody passed on balances tablets. One of the funny things about balances taxes he makes you swear an oath three different times to keep the teaching secret not to share them. But then evidently somebody broke the oath because his book got copied over and got passed on otherwise we wouldn't have it at this point. Sure. But what you know that this there is some obvious sons of of his Buca having edited having been edited in in the third. Century. I because the results of reaching Philip the Arabs I guess in the third century, of course, valance said, couldn't have written this part. And there are some some some appendices to the the book that we're just the just the content, some natives from the fifth century. And so it seems like someone just I'm found the balances notes, which were a may be accumulated just that they had accumulated during the years and put them together updated some parts even even by the. By the fifth century valances. Work. had been altered many times so that sure is the point maybe some of his students like continued. Passing, on the books and added to them at different points over the following decades, following centuries, and then eventually got more widely circulated. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. But actually, this is just a pet during the tap into him us. We can say every other astrological texts including autonomy. So apathetic metrics. So plus. Okay. So let's for that tax an overview and a synopsis of every technique. If he wanted to synthesize a bunch of different authors and in order to do like a full on chart interpretation this would be sort of your approach or this was this author's approach in its unique for that reason because you don't usually see the single author trying to combine all of these different techniques in terms of how read a short. but let's move onto the last two tax because I WANNA make sure we mentioned these at least briefly before we we wrap up since we're almost at two hours here. The first one is return on inception 's. So this is a taxed former Torius but it was not translated by the previous translators of of rhetoric so far which are James Holden and Robert Schmidt but this is an additional piece that was probably in the re Torius compilation you found. Actually, it was in the race compilation or. compelling evidence for this because actually one version has retail RIA says the Altar in the manuscript until we know, we need to to remember that. Most of the tax Attributed to rate Torian sexually don't they are the his name, but in this case. The result very clear attribution to rate aureus. So, the extended version is on the left version is on the right and dives. Got The idea that The extended version is based on how Rachel reassess version. but Just to keep the. The sequence I just up to the the then you're version on the left here. Okay. So you've got a two parallel columns in on the left is the extended version on the is retraces version for sure and so this is a again it's like a synopsis of putting together a bunch of rules for practicing. Inception astrology or election astrology, and basically, if you WANNA pick an election chart according to hellenistic rules, these are the these rules to or the things to look for basically rent. This purpose but the other purposes if you're analyzing even chart door or our consultation chart. Than, of course, these the same guidelines that you should follow. Right, so this is using the the Greek Term Keke, which means inception or beginning beginning or commencement, and the Greek term had that dual meaning where it could either mean looking at an inception chart for an event that has already started in the past or looking at or or even picking out a chart that still coming up in the future. Is that's right. Okay. So all right. So which one should I read from? which would you prefer I read from if I read a passage from on? The rhetoric version of the extended. While I guess that the Um the Rato research is just okay. Okay. So it says. In every inception examined the supervisor and the administrator in examined whether they are not subtracting. So it says that the supervisor in the administrator that's the Lord of the day the ruler of the day and the ruler of the hour, right? Yes that's right. So using the planetary ruler of the day, which is like Sunday, Monday, Tuesday Wednesday, which Mercury Day, and so on and so forth. So pay attention to what the ruler of the day is and what the ruler of our is. Yes. Okay then it says than above all examine what signed our marker is in a tropical, a double bodied or a solid one, and whether it is street or crooked, moist or aquatic and so forth. So it says then look at what the rising sign is what? What sign of the Zodiac. The our marker is and what the quality of that sign is. So, then it goes on it says then examine what appearance the Lord of the Hour Marker has. So the ruler of the ascendant and whether he is morning evening or setting. Adding or subtracting, being exalted or depressed, opposing his domicile or in his own domicile or try gone. Pivotal having declined or succeeding or by whom he is beheld by a Ben Affleck or malefic. So a bunch of conditions there. But basically just looking at establishing is the condition of the ruler at the ascendant in your inception charter in your election chart and applying all the different core criteria that you would look at such as Whether it's a morning star and evening star whether it is. Song. beams of the sun whether it's moving faster or slower than its average daily motion or even being retrograde. Whether. It's in the sign of its exultation depression. This one's interesting relative to the episode from last month that you helped work on with me, which is he actually explicitly after exultation of depression stipulates a planet. Opposing his domicile or being in its own domicile or try gone. So this is once a planet opposing its its domicile or the concept of detriment had started to become fully integrated into the hellenistic tradition returns using it really explicitly here intellectual astrology. than it says pivotal. Or having declined or succeeding. So being an angular house being in a kid and house were being in a succeeded. And then finally. By whom he has held whether by Banal fix or malefic. So if the planet if the ruler of the ascendant is being aspect of by benefit planets, malefic planets. Just. So basically, this this this paragraph verse similar to to to some some instructions of previous tax subsidy. Nate attacks the differences that native are always but so they have a bigger importance in this case may be the investigation shouldn't go as far as in the case of navy's. Okay. So then it goes on, it says then examined in what place helius and Selena are by whom they are beheld in whose bounds they are, and whether they are in bright degrees. Then it goes on it says examine what places the domicile masters of Hilson Selena are. So the the rulers of the sun and moon or to luminaries, you're supposed to look at the domicile rulers. What appearances they have whether they are subtracting or adding. And whether they are looking upon the lights so whether the domicile lords of the move sun and moon with luminaries are aspect in them. And in particular with the domicile master of Soleil is not opposing Selena whether he is in a bad or a good place whether he is bull beholding Selena and welcomes the presence of her. what is the term for welcomes the presence of her because that's kind of interesting because it almost sounds like reception which you don't see reference to lot in the hellenistic tradition but then it shows up full-blown in the medieval tradition and I've been trying to trace where that came here actually. In this case the the welcome could be translated as receive this the keyword this. Deck ally which means to receive with can also mean receive, but there is another Coordinator were verb. That is I. Guess that these Apple Deck my aunt, which has the very similar meaning but as it seems that the these rarely used the verbs in Greek meaning so While in this who this well come. Means simply. Out To. Be applied. by another planet. So to win the debris from from the moon, this is the planet that is just waiting for the application and the. The other verb dot is receive and this the verb receiver. Expresses exactly what is reception a tradition so being Gaza Being. Guest in someone is still missile. But Jeff. I mean 'cause it's still like when you look at the parallel from the extended version, it says. It's talking about the the the ruler of the sign that the moon is placed and basically it says. In the extended version examined in particular whether the Domicile Master of the Moon is not opposing the moon whether he lies in a good place and whether he is beholding her in any way except by a diameter by an opposition and whether he welcomes her presence it's pretty close to the. Concept of reception. So I wonder if this is where Eventually. I think it is It is to the receptionist biggest set. In this case, we are dealing with a very special meaning, which means that it is not just the reception and having configuration. But the the ruler and the Moon are together in assign. So this is a bodily. Conjunction also. Okay. Got It. So. Then the text of rhetorical gets a little choppy and it looks like it breaks off As an whether Selena is waxing in her light or waning, and whether she is adding numbers or subtracting. it keeps going on examined in which place. The Lot of fortune is whether the sun is beholding it for it brings success and choices examined the Lord of the lot of fortune and consider the applications and separations of Selena in it keeps going with a bunch of different things including looking at the nodes. But this kind of gives you a really good overview. It's like it's almost like retort is summarizing all of the election rules from book five of Dorotheos, which is really useful because Dorotheos does a pretty good job of like going through different topics and telling you what to look at but dozen does clear about like outlining. Systematic approach for looking at every inception chart right from the start at least in the surviving version. Yeah but it seems that this who wrote these texts will was. Devoted to my in the holiday, the whole tradition. So new to to put together tax that had just out how to help to do this allowed to do that in a systematic way, there is the third tax that this retribution that this was a this has already been translated. This is a so-called. tabular Investigation. I. Think. This would be examination tabular exit nation that would be the best. Translation for net this is bad. This was translated by holden. I think it is a chapter hung fifty seven. In. The Highness translation. And there is a diversion that is Found in the in the book of Hermes, in a deliberate her mattis. Translated by by Robert Zoellner. I guess the that was in Synoptic version translated by Robert? Schmidt. In China in one booklet but So this could be. Improved and there is also a systematic. Examination of of the luminaries of the tribal lords of the of the debate clots of the Prenatal citizenry. lunar notes in something like that. So it's about the general assessment of of. Of Deep of defame and drank of the negative. Yeah. That'd be a great thing to translate at some point. So that's definitely on your list of things to do what is. Yeah Yeah. Okay Great. or let's quickly move on our last taxed and this one's really good because it demonstrates were jumping over all over the place to different eras in Hellenistic astrology I with and Haikus, and like the first or second century and poor free maybe if it was even authored by poor free in the third century or so then we've jumped to and xenos astrologer whereas those astrologers in the fifth century inventories might be in the in the sixth. Or Seventh Century but there's not the Greek texts were not just restricted to that era where we typically think of the Hellenistic tradition from the first century BC until the sixth or seventh century see but instead Greek ancient Greek continued to be used in the Byzantine tradition for several centuries after that astrologers continued to write texts and copy over in preserved different texts and in some instances even translated texts from Arabic integrate, right? That's right. Yeah. The only problem is that in a lot of cases that are on so the alter the original jurors are not indicated. we know that there are the handful of Arabic quarters peering gin in these light sources. But there are many many chapters that we we can. We can suspect a diesel something coming from the Arabic customer on. But nobody authors unfortunately. In this case, we know the altar and and. Those so the whereabouts of the text. Okay. So those are the fourth tax you're releasing. Today is a work in progress where it is a translation from a student of the famous ninth. Century Astrologer Abbas, Shar who was one of the most prolific medieval astrological authors and an influential. Astrological Authors Net interviewed Benjamin. Dykes. About him last summer in probably will again before too long because Ben said in the last episode that he's finishing his translation of Abba Machar's greater introduction right now So Abdomen Charlotte in the ninth century and he had this student named showed an who wrote this text where he seems like you just. wrote down a bunch of different anecdotes from his time studying with his teacher and some of the things that his teacher. Abba Machar told him which makes it an extraordinarily You make document that you don't usually see in the astrological tradition but also very interesting sort of like a behind the scenes look into the the life in the thinking about. Machar. The S that's it against. This is the best description. Okay. So So what this is is that texts that was originally written by Shannon Arabic in the ninth century at some point, it was translated into Greek, right? Yeah. Well, we don't know exactly the the time of the translation, the name of the translator because these these late translator didn't. WANT TO BE EXPOSED But we can. We can suspect that the this translation was made around the around the year one, Townsend. So, may be detained toward the eleventh centuries It is not the company translation decompre- terrific taxed while I as far as I know the. So there is no additional, the Arabic taxed and as far as I knew there. May Be two different versions of the Arabic coverage in all. That is also extant. And this Greek version. Is only a partial translation but While it contains about sixty seven, seventy, seventy, eighty percent of the the big versions according to Pingree Rotan an article about that. And it and his Greek version also has has a Latin translation It is extant many manuscripts and it is very important to this manuscript because. The? the Byzantine Greek version is on the extent in in now. In three primary manuscripts and sometimes they are they sort forte. So when he every several several witness to to put together the whole picture. Of Florida Monte the Arabic translated. So but the the Greek version was translated directly from the Arabic. But I think you said that the Latin version was translated from the Greek version, right? Yes. But it is not me saying that agree but with it looks quite obvious. I guess I was just saying in terms of the importance than of of having translation of the Greek version and studying it. So I've been encouraging like Ben, to translate the Arabic version, I think he's going to do that at some point but once you finish this, I think this will be the first full translation of this tax that's been published and you've completed about a third of it and you've been slowly releasing it to your patrons and supporters through your page on Patriot over the past few months right Gallia Omb. For Wildlife, wanted to. To release a new. Installments every week but now I just released some new installments. Every second week I. I'm trying to finish this text as soon as possible. But of course, there are many detects detail I need to deal with. alleged wanted to read through a few highlights that you have so far since it's still a work in progress, there's a few really good. Parts of this, just to give people a taste for what it's about what? The text is like so I, I wanted to take a look at. Passage three. So, this is funny. It's like a classic. Anecdote that Machar told his student once about giving advice to somebody and some of the pitfalls of talking to non astrologers. So here says it's titled. The. Title is when the Moon was in square with bars, the traveler to whom an inception was made met robbers. So the text says Abu Mishari said once I was travelling to Baghdad with some fellow travelers and Enra-. I met a friend having some knowledge of strategy who asked me how the moon was the following day. I told him she was in square with Mars. He replied then you will not depart tomorrow i. told him believe me I am not at all eager to depart on a day like that but my cattle drivers will not listen to us. He suggested we test them. So I said to the driver's men tomorrow it is a bad day be patient. I shall feed your animals. They were not convinced. So I let them depart and stayed with my friend. As. They were about to leave I took the ascendant and I found it was in Torres and Mars was in it while the moon was in Leo in square with Mars. So I told them for God's sake do not leave at this hour but they laughed at me and left I told my friend believe me I feel sorry for these foolish people and we sat down to eat and drink. We were still drinking when certain men at the caravan arrived wounded. They had encountered robbers who killed some of them and wounded the others and the robbers had driven away all the animals they were driving the survivors, attacked me with stones and staffs saying these things happened because of your superstitions so that you can confirm your utterance. I barely survived the attack and I swore I would never disclose any astrological wisdom to an ignoramus. So. That's a that's a great anecdote of this must be like a real sounds like a relief anecdote of Shar paying attention to on a regular daily basis like what's going on with the election astrology and Specifically once he gave advice to these people and they wouldn't listen to him. He cast the inception charter of the election. Char for when they departed on their journey and he saw that Torres was rising and Mars was in tourists in the first house and that the moon was in Leo squaring Mars. So it was kind of like a worse case scenario in terms of of election astrology at that point. Yeah. Yes. It seems of course We can exclude the possibility lush auto was was exaggerating because of this is the second tending formation so He says, okay I met a friend that's the styles do his pupil devoted pupil shutdown, and of course that we just note from him now but but it's interesting to see behind this behind the scenes I guess dentist a while these practicing gusts row jurors, even the biggest ones the greatest ones like the Abu shot himself was much like us. Yeah I mean I've you know somebody who's been doing election astrology for the past fifteen years or so if I saw you know if I paid attention to charts like that, and if you have like Mars in the first house in an election chart and the moon is applying to a square with Mars in day chart, you're going to have a bad time and that's pretty straightforward like election will rule that most electrical astrologers I think we'll get on board with pretty easily so Maybe, it was a little exaggerated but on the other hand, this could have actually been real life anecdote of of something that could have seen happening just because I've sort of seen things like that. Myself just in terms of my own like endeavors leaving on trips and things like that when you have no choice. Our it so that's one of the excerpts Another one that I found interesting that I wanted to read is the very next one passage for. Which is titled Wind Saturday in conjunction with Jupiter, if someone is born who has the sign of this conjunction in the ascendant, her mid heaven, this one will be a great king. So it says, abattoirs said quote the conjunctions of Saturn and Jupiter bear great mysteries if someone is born on the day of this this conjunction and his ascendant or mid heaven happens to be in the same sign as the conjunction a great king will be borne whose name will be known all over the world. So I thought that was really interesting. Of course, because we are in a year of twenty twenty where we're coming up on a conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn released soon and the question of you know what happens if somebody's born at that time with Jupiter Saturn conjunction conjuncture, ascendant conjuncture mid heaven or what have you? Well we'll see. We'll have to Be, in three years maybe. Thirty years, forty years we'll see what happens Alright. So one that I wanted to read was. Passage Twenty three About if you're going to the Calif.. which is something. We all find ourselves doing from time to time. Says on your about to right. You did the other day. Okay. when you're about to go to the Calif who wants to use your knowledge of astrology, it says. He also told me in Baghdad. Should end talking about must have been studying with Abba Machar in Baghdad in the ninth century, which is just really cool to think of that says he also told me in Baghdad quote. If the Calif takes you so that you serve him with your knowledge of astrology. Do Not make judgment when the ascendant isn't Scorpio or the angles are in movable signs or Mars is angular because judgment will be mistaken and because Scorpio, is a sign of falsity. So this is one of the funny I remember Reading Ben's. Of the Latin version of Sudan's. anecdotes and it's a recurring theme that Abbas Machar was not a fan of the sign Scorpio and he got associating with like deception and falsity. Yeah but don't I don't think that the it was it was him to to itself for the first time. Right yeah. I might buy Agneta Woking. pedia but. May, be There are many earlier tax including the the one that is attributed to Torius about the description of signs and or or the one that is. the president in violence and you know the different. Classifications of signs and what of these classifications can be real weird like. like adding matic or obscure signs you know Comb signs or I know some sort of signs than than can be slim force signs or or Aurea Mandela's signs. So I guess this this also part of the story, What is interesting is that the TUB marshawn gifts this. This. Suggestion, to the to the student and it is not the theoretical recommendation. Oh Yeah we'll be up because. He'll this or that writes this. But now when you know you go to the Caliph and you're playing with your life basically because if the cat doesn't like your prediction or you just give. A Bet rob predictions, and these are folded than maybe your Your head can say goodbye to your neck. So don't do that because you need to be careful on. This is something that you need to take off. Yeah, I mean we're talking about like a this is the time period when astrologers were acting still is advisors for kings and for the rulers and sometimes making really important decisions are advising them on important decisions and had you know they were not just like doing delineations of their love life or something like that. Timing wars and campaigns in the founding of cities like Baghdad itself was founded. based on electoral chart put together by a group of astrologers. So he saying he's giving indications for be careful not to give advice under certain conditions like if Mars is angular because your your judgment, your prediction might be wrong in that instance. So you want to want to be paying attention to those things. Yeah. That's right and not just that was always the risk of business because there is there is another chapter I haven't translated so far but I remember Ob Mush are saying that once he was punished by the Calif by predicting something that was right just the Kayla didn't like it. Okay Right, okay. Let's see those two more. Two more. Passages the wanted to read one of them is. Twenty four which is if someone wants to travel for his prophet, how the horoscope should have its configurations it says, he also told me another secret when you want to travel for Prophet, make the Lord of the Second House be above the earth separate from a malefic star or star made in fortunate or declining star and applied to an angular banana thick in mutual reception because the trip will be of the greatest prophet. I add the following the Lord of the second. House must not be in its fall burned up or retrograde because these conditions 'cause hindrance. That's interesting. Should Dan you know giving an anecdote from his teacher but then also adding his own observation at the end as well here yes. Sometimes, it happens. In the finally, the last one that I thought was interesting was. A passage twenty eight. It says, he said when Saturn is in Libra Jupiter's in cancer they always effected great changes in the world. and I just thought that was really interesting in weird because a few months ago I did the code with Nina. Griffin on the founding of the birth chart for the United States which just weirdly happened to be founded in a year when Jupiter was in cancer and Saturn was in Libro, the signs of their expectations. So it's interesting this ninth century astrologer mentioning something like that, and then you have an event like that correlates several centuries after the author died for whatever that's worth. Yeah well, this is remarkable. I guess but it's interesting because in this case this is an isolated statement. So we don't new We don't learn anything more about the the background door with context sometimes it this really frustrating to see that the these these memories of shutdown just like, okay. I just heard something entrusting down this very sentence and. Know nobody the the background. So What are the? Limits of the sore stinks. But still it's it's interesting to see the. This is how the Casino, Luke Light, in the ninth. Century. Yet definitely and it's interesting because it's behind the scenes of it's not just the theoretical taxed of like what you're publishing and saying this is how it works in theory but some of it is real life anecdotes about things that made a difference or that we're like learned lived experiences perhaps that Machar may have had. The s the so this way I, I just found it in so. I? Guess in this case, the indicates of this present tax full shots on discourses I could have waited until the Bendix can can can put this discern Arabic tax down his schedule, but I just want to bring it to the to the home to people interested in in the practical side, the first to see what what was happening then. So of course, that might might translation will be a superseded by Benza translation eventually. But. The the very same reasons motivate me when I'm focusing on on translating Actual Hawk as Buca native, these reception that have been translated or edited so far. So for example. Some do for example, the the native of the Byzantine Emperor Constantine the seventh that is a detailed description. delamination are using methods of Dorotheos and Ptolemy. So these are very important but you see that there is a whole range from theoretical a purely theoretical. To. The to the actual practical examples that can be translated. Will It seems like you're covering the entire spectrum and especially as you go on more and more with your translations will be able to see more and more of that I, know translating some of the horoscopes of different authors. Different Greek core scopes and delineations were written in Greek also something very interested in So just to wrap up the shiben piece this is about your about a third of the way through. Translating this, but you're going to be like, you said every other week, you're going to continue releasing more more passages from this translation through your page on Petri on for subscribers that want to sign up for that. So right now, goal is to fund the projects that you can keep translating all the time. So encourage everybody that listen to this episode was interested in anything that we're talking about to go to your pin. And funded because I wanna see you translate more of these texts and eventually may be you know however many years in the future we'll have all of the surviving texts translated, and then we can. We can study them in peace through them and and learn from them and recover a lot of the sort of knowledge that's locked away in some of these techniques in these tax or that has been locked away for centuries now. So patrons get really access to texts like this as well as updates plus benefits. You're still in the process of expanding the different benefits that people get at this point right to I just wanted to to start to translating releasing translations as soon as possible. Before setting up, devoted the page that song you can find all the translations Dundee you can. You can have a log in, and then you can access the me NAM in a convenient format and also before before providing. Any sort of ideas. or any sort of special benefits to to to To more to degenerate says, subscribers but time just planning to to set up a different tidiest So I'm trying to who I'm focusing primarily on translations. Of course, anyone who has ever tried to translate tax must know that translation is a very time consuming business he especially in the case of Greek texts when you just don't sit down and start translating but you need to compare different versions different tax different cultures think about the meaning of some passages so. So the the Altus, of course, it is meagre compared to a modern. Language translations guages. So while I'm trying I'm focusing primarily to the translations I'm trying to figure out how I can I can. Benefit, the the the the patrons. So, with the different Diaz. Yes. Yeah, well, there's been some exciting ideas I mean you're making some of these PDF's available. You're going to set up a library of texts that people can download eventually you're you're in the process of working on your website, which is whore. I project DOT COM But in the meantime, the primary site is your Patriot page, which is available at Patriotair Dot com slash Horai project. You also have a page on facebook where you release updates and you also started in account on twitter where you've been occasionally posting some little updates snippets as well which I've appreciated. And then eventually in the long term, you have future plans to publish. Some of these translations in Book Forum at some point as well. Right? Yeah let's say Google that the the time loop format only comes when. There are some. Well established Translation versions. Of, a particular tax just a given example. So when for example, we we started talking about the deport free tax that when the poor free tax to together with the entire 'cause specificities. So panned, some other basic tax can be translated together and can be put together and that can be ethnically mentality that. Gives an insight into the the usage of different concepts in different. Ole Tours and those can give some practical examples a comprehensive handbook. I think this is the time when it can be published in a book. Format. Okay with something. That sounds good suicides finishing Shan, and finishing soon, the poor free and Haikus translation. What are some of your other long term projects we talked about may be translating Paula Sandrine Os's introduction at some point since that's a tax that's not as in circulation as as I might like personally, it's another good introductory taxed. Yes. Well police. is definitely worse translating. Especially, as the DOD previous translations were made from critically Dacian. Published in the nineteen fifties before the Before before the paradigm shift in in making gun critical editions so so I guess the Titan I can come up with some some some tax. That is Translated so far. So but just. By having the the opportunity to locate the the threat of manuscript select a bit more closely. and. Also planning to translate them on this text dimension the bottom related to to. Ray tores about this tabular examination. And also the this basics that constitutes the the beginning of on select show disposition because all it is also an introductory tax than the A. In. Two during the project by project that with the poor free I've already translated most of it. So I just need to translate a couple of shaped chapters from that. And I would like to I would like to Do to have SORTA has the balance between the different done arrows, different Genera of these stacks. So some inception, some native e t, some and you are methods So NATO prediction may be some moon mundane historical Jason practical examples decent that but it's I don't have so. I don't have any any sort of a big ACC- texting in front of me I would like to translate but may be focusing gun on different. Minor tax that data were looking at. Yeah. There's plenty of work to do but basically soon you promise if we if the political community funds this, you're gonNA do your best to translate as many texts as you can into make them available to the world. Basically you're not gonNA. Change your mind some of their translation projects in stop publishing suddenly you probably. Think. So because as you mentioned that the beginning classical philologist and I'm doing my in the topic of. The. Textual. Transmission Fest Roger Car Tax in Hellenistic Times so late, talented stick time-to-time potentials interested in in in delay term periods festival jury up to the Middle Ages I think the there is a vast reservoir four Untouched undiscovered texts and to, and this is Shirley my profession to with tax. This is what specialized in how to deal with throw call texts written in. Greek were written in Latin? So. I think minimum. This is this is. How? The goal of my life. Yeah, that's great. I think that's a great way to say it and Yeah I'm excited about it. I hope that people will help to fund helped me to fund this project. So we can get the rest of these texts translated There's the website again, dot com slash Horai project, and you can pick a different pledge level to support each month each month, get full access or early access to some of these texts Yeah. So I hope I wish you great great lock in great success in this project and thank you already for the work that you've done translating of these texts and making them available and Yeah. Thanks. Thanks a lot for joining me today. Appreciate it. Thank you very much for the invitation. All, right. Well, thank everybody for listening to this episode of the astrology podcast Be sure to check out some of the links in the description below this episode world put links told the translations we're talking about today and otherwise That's it. So thanks for listening and we'll see you again next time. Thanks to the patrons who helped to support the production of this episode of the astrology podcast through our page on Patriot Dot Com. In particular shoutout out to patrons Christine Stone Nate critic Merrin Altman Arena Tudor Thomas Miller Bear River Catherine Conroy Michelle Maryland, and Lada. As well as the astro gold astrology APP available at Astra Gold. I. Co the Portland School of Astrology at Portland Astrology Dot Org, and the honeycomb collective personal astrological almanacs available at Honeycomb Dot Co. the production of this episode of the podcast was also supported by the International Society for Astrological Research, which is hosting an online astrology conference September twelfth and Thirteenth Twenty twenty. You can find out more information about that at I saw twenty twenty dot org. And finally, also solar fire astrology software, which is available at Elliot Dot Com, and you can use the Promo code AP fifteen for a fifteen percent discount on that software. For more information about how to become a patron of the astrology podcast and help support the production of future episodes getting access to subscriber benefits like early access to new episodes or other bonus content. Go to Patriot dot com slash astrology podcast.