1 Episode results for "Phd Career Development"
PhD Recruitment Today with Rebecca Maymon
"Welcome to another great episode of Papa PhD this week. I'm bringing you a conversation with someone who has recently made the transition from her PhD to the non-academic job market has done so into the PHD Career Development and recruitment domain during our conversation Rebecca mammen, not only recounted her experience exploring career Avenues during her PhD and not getting that transition, but she also shared valuable insights based on her research and on her recruiting experience working in an organization that focuses exclusively on phds off and remember stay tuned until the end for the podcast Discovery segment where I'll be presenting you to new podcasts play anthropology and dear grad student. Enjoy the show off. Really, you know the interview is just to find out about you, right? They already see your skills on your CV. So I am in the habit of preparing about four or five different Source stories and just making notes of what those stories are and my notebook before I start the interview and sometimes the question might be different. It might be like a challenge or they might say like, you know, what is a time when you had a disagreement like the question might change but usually the themes are pretty similar so they want to know the way that you act in certain situations. So having you know, I prepare those ahead of time and they're super helpful and interviews. Welcome to Papa PhD with David Mendez the podcast where we explore careers and life after grad school with guests who have walked the world Less Traveled and have unique stories to tell about how they made their place in the world of constantly evolving rules. Get ready to go off the beaten path and hop on for an exciting new episode of pod HD. Today on Papa PhD we have Rebecca. Mammen, Rebecca joined a doctor talent management in 2019 as a research officer and recruitment consultant where she contributes to in-house research projects focused on the skills of phds and how they can foster Innovation within and outside the academy. She also provides skills and career development workshops for phds and acts as a recruitment Consultants to help Innovative companies find highly qualified talent that matches their needs Rebecca holds a PhD in educational psychology from McGill University Montreal over the past ten years. She has developed and contributed to projects in graduate skills wage and employment stress and social support during transition periods motivation engagement and human behavior. Welcome to Papa Pete's see, Rebecca. Thank you so much and thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to talk with you today. Well, it's my pleasure and I'm really really happy to have you here on Papa PhD found well, as always we're going to start with your story. But what you do today is really really interesting to me. And I think it's going to be really interesting to the the listeners out there who are thinking about careers after graduate school. And so yeah, really excited to hear your story and to hear what you have to share. So to start by the beginning as always I would like to ask you to just talk a little bit about your journey and and your academic Journey how you you came to do a PhD, you know, maybe don't go back to high school. But how how you had you know, you you got into this journey how maybe you chose to your you decided to do a PhD and then log Actually in part to we'll talk about what came after but yeah to begin. What was your journey like sure well, so to start I am I think I can start that. I had a break after my bachelor's and I was living and working in the United States and I was working in a social services position that I did not enjoy it very much but there was quite challenging if I can say so I had that moment where I was like I need to go back to school. Hm. I really like school. I was always good at it and thought I think my career aspirations just I wanted to do more so I had moved to Montreal to do my Master's and PhD at McGill University. And at that point that was there was kind of an understanding where you know, if you enter the master's program you're going to continue to do a PhD And as much as my advice to everyone is always to please think about what you're going to do with the Ph.D. Before you start it. You know, I hadn't really had a clear path. I knew that I liked to learn I was passionate about education and I wanted to eventually be in a leadership position. And you know, I just thought that that was the way to get there. So I'm about halfway through my Ph.D. I was realizing I don't think I want to continue with an academic career. I know that I have options out there. I just need to I need to figure out what those are, you know, and I had just started taking the time to to explore and you know, eventually that led me to worry I'm now but I did do a number of years of research in motivation and Social Psychology research and research in stress and social support and helping people within the higher education Community make Transitions and support them. Being mhm. And so you can transfer real and it's through here. It does the system of starting a master's and then kind of transitioning into a PhD. I think that's what you were you were gaining too. But my question to you is so when you started your Masters, did you imagine or were you for seeing that you eventually you'd be a professor was that was that kind of the that's typically that that's typically the you know, what what people imagine and I think also it's it's it's easy to project yourself in something that you're very used to wear familiar with right. So when we spend years in the academy, it's it's quite easy to project yourself at in that position. So young originally I was thinking like I love education. I like teaching. I like research this I could do that, but then, you know as the years pass and you kind of see what that's worth. Like sometimes I like to call like not call it but say that doing a PhD is like the longest informational interview ever being a professor and off, you know, so it gives you a chance to learn really about what that what that profession is like and the pros and cons. So for me, I just started realizing early on that. I wanted to go a different route. And so clearly this was this was this was evident or this was clear to you within your own self within your planning within you know, your your mind, but what about the environment? How was did you talk to someone about it? Once this idea of or this concept? Thought I'm going to do something outside Academia started burgeoning. What conversations did you have? And with whom and how did that go and I'm thinking of maybe your your supervisor UTC supervisor, maybe family maybe colleagues was that some authors easy step to take to kind of, you know fully fully decide that okay. I'm going to finish this but and then going to do something else but I mean just speaking for myself. I was fortunate to have the support. So, you know something about the Ph.D is is that it's a very varied experience. It can really depend a lot on who you're working with and where and and so on so, you know for sure I talked with colleagues friends in my program about it because there was actually a number of people who are feeling the same way. So there's a group of friends. I have a worry about four women and we need every few weeks and we're friends but we also talked I mean most of the talk is professional and you know, we still need to talk about those things and you know doing that job None of us really helpful and sharing resources and talking to each other before job interviews and and things like that. So I was lucky to have built kind of that have that that Network at the pure level, you know, when I brought it up to my adviser. I don't think it was very surprised. Okay. I think I I I was hesitant to bring it up in the beginning God because I wasn't really sure what the expectations were and I kind of knew that there were more generally expectations around continuing than academic path, you know at the agency level so long I did bring it up later. But my personal experience was that I had a lot of support for that at that level and also at the University level there were a lot of workshops and things offered. When Rebecca mentioned having a support group that discussed professional progression in shared resources. My ears perked up here is one of the most healthy and helpful strategies can try and Implement in graduate school a support network of peers with whom you can discuss different aspects of your PhD experience find accountability partners for your Milestones or you're writing down and share resources. I then moved on to asking Rebecca what resources helped her in her career exploration during graduate school. I mean pretty much any time. I we see something interesting coming up will share it whether it's like I saw that there's going to be this talk or there's a consulting firm coming to do an info session on CV or resume writing so long, you know whenever I sell events at McGill I would always try to share them or just seek them out. I mean a lot of that process is kind of just taking the time to do the like working in searching for things. But when you do come across it, you know save it and share it so as far as specific things go, I mean, I don't want to Rattle off a a ton of like websites or anything like that, but there are things out there that are I mean, there are a lot of free resources out there that are fairly easy to find with a bit of Google searching so or even job posts off My friends they sent me job post. Hey, I saw this you might be good at this you want to check it out. And and I do the same. Okay, so you talk about different things that I think are very important. So there's Community these people, you know, like minded people women like you were saying that in your case that were kind of keeping an eye out for each other and sending sending job post. That's awesome. Plus I guess the Friendship factor is also a plus being in graduate school. It can be can be very solitary as as an experience and it must have helped to have this group of friends that that normal not only you talk work, but also keep you know, keeping an eye out for each other of hey, maybe you'd like to do this this job might be good for you that that's I think that's very important to not home. So your loan which sure and it's easy to fall into that trap, right? Yes. I finally well. I've only ever worked in the social sciences, but my experience from what I'm hearing is dead. It tends to be a bit more isolating the social science and Humanities Labs. I mean, I worked from home for two years at the end of my PhD, okay, but you know, you have to kind of get yourself out of the bubble sometimes and just make the time to go and do something else see something else, you know, and I also have support for my supervisor. I mean, he still sends me job posts. Oh, well, that's super cool. And yeah, yep, there's a luck Factor there to of who your supervisor surprised or ends up being and what type of relationship you're able to develop with them. But that that's you know, it's an a case-by-case like you were saying, it's it varies one of the message one of the take-home messages from what you just said is there's a career center where you are dead. Go look at their billboard or whatever keep up-to-date to what's happening there cuz I think a lot of these resources we were talking about might be offered by University through Thursday. Types of of offices. Yes, please. I mean they're a great resource. There's people offices of people who it's their entire job is to help you get a job to find most resources. So definitely, you know seek them out and see what they have and you know, if they don't have what you're looking for ask them, you know, maybe they can create something new or to invite someone to come speak about it. And now we talking about resources that are you know, a little bit distant from you maybe but you also talked about a group of peers that's already closer supervisor supervisor who's quite close to you in that in the day-to-day of being a graduate researchers, but there's a couple of things that I'd like to ask To do with how you then prepare yourself to transition to whatever came after and and we we don't know what it was yet, but you were looking at Chapo's, you know, you were probably trying to build some skills in these workshops that you might have been taking part in but one thing that I am curious about is whether you doing all this this process in this journey, if you had someone someone else from outside who who played kind of a mentorship who was your Mentor let's say and who might have changed and you or help you go go a little bit further and and you know reach your goals more more consistently maybe or more quickly. I don't know. Sure. Well, actually I'll speak just a bit to the to the path because the mentorship falls it in there. So probably around halfway through my Ph.D. As I mentioned. I realized like wow not only are there other opportunities, but I need to to Really, you know, take this seriously and figure out like how I'm going to make it happen. Not just assume it will happen at the end. Yeah. So my you know, my supervisor was quite supportive of me at that point, but he was also very honest in that. You know, he the only thing he had done is working in higher education in Academia. He's like, I want to help see I don't really know how and I don't know anybody really outside of this circle. Like if you think of a way I can help you I mean, but I just I don't know so I you know, I I had done really just a lot of time on my own searching. I hate to say that I Google things with a p h t but I did like a lot of Googling like different professions and reading about them and hearing about informational interviews. So I just had that moment where I was like, I need to extend my network because my little academic network is not going to cut it and I didn't even know how to start. So I really the way that I started was just broadening the academic Network. So reaching outside of my department. I had seen this call for volunteers to to work on a committee at McGill to review page to review their student life and learning portfolio Okay, so I wound up saying like, well, I'm going to meet people they're you know, they're still in that cademia but their new people right? So I walked in that and there was actually a consulting firm, you know that was working along with them at that point. So I had met those people who were actually very kind and out dog. So I started meeting you. I took their invitation to come talk and I met with them and one of the the the gentleman who owns property consulting firm in Montreal was very generous and just I saw right away that you know, he wanted to work with me on stuff, you know, we wrote like a little article on LinkedIn together, but he was someone who just started like connecting me with other people. He was like, okay, I see you want to do this other thing here is three people go talk to so I started having informational interviews with Consulting people and roll people who do Learning and Development and like the financial sector and human resources at Cirque du Soleil and all all across different sectors. So as soon as I started having those informational interviews and burning about just other things I could do. I was hooked like, you know, I had a So catch is coming back to the mentorship part. This was a couple few years ago. So, you know this person is someone that I still keep in touch with I mean, maybe not every month, but you know, I still keep in touch with we still talk about projects. We walk and chat about you know, what's going on in his company to talk about people. I might want to meet still dead. He's been a referee for me to what I'm applying for jobs and that's nice to have a referee who's not in in in Academia. So there's a little bit of a better but also I think just taking the step to reach out and to talk to different people know not everyone will be a mentor, but eventually you're going to come across somebody where it kind of clicks and then you can have different tours for four different. Purposes also you know, it's not just a One-Shot thing. Yeah, I think the important thing you mentioned there is expanding your network outside of the the academic million. Let's say average academic domain. That's where the the luck factor maybe increases a little bit because you kind of cross-pollinating your your your network with other ones that that you weren't close to it and that's when things happen and and and no super super interesting. Okay. So I mean just to let everybody know, you know, it's not always easy. I did a lot of cold emailing and you know, some people answer me and they're really nice and we have a coffee and I still talk to them and you know, not everybody answers you so I just want to say like don't get discouraged about that or Be too afraid to do that because it can help you a lot and someone in another interview said that what they did was. Oh I started going to seminars from both departments. And that was also another way that they found to to kind of widen their their Network again because they were having discussions about things that were not usual for them. They were finding common points and even eventually building projects interdisciplinary project. So I know I find this very very interesting but you write that down even asking for informational interviews, you know, people are busy and use sometimes it will get no answer because because and sometimes you'll get a know because back then people may not have time but some of them will say yes and and it'll be it'll bring a lot of value to you to be able to talk to someone who's doing something that that you you log. You think that you might be interested in doing so yeah, keep trying the cold emailing may feel weird, but it's really really worth it in the end for that one person that says, yes, ma'am, right and whenever you leave an information informational interview, your last question should be who else can I talk to write always leave with another contact? Is there someone else you can connect me with and if they you know, if there's nobody there they'll tell you like I don't really know right now, but if there is you know is it's true it's true and then it'll be your gain and uh, it's very it's very I never heard that advice. It's really really good. It's like it's like when you take cherries from a bold as the next one, but it's it's an organic way to even widen the net a little bit more awesome. Rebecca so here we were talking about, you know, you trying to get new new skills and then eventually looking at job postings. Did you specifically prepare to interview or yeah to interview for specific jobs was there at any point where you got you did workshops? Mm. I don't know with the tail tailoring your CV or even uh, you know rehearsing for interviews. What did you do anything like that? Oh sure. So I mean as far as workshops, there were a number that were offered through McGill. Yeah. I mean I had attended one by McKinsey Consulting on resume writing. I had I mean pretty much anything. I saw that I was able to go to I went to you know, there were things about Kind of the way they do I DP or end of the individual development plans. Now, we're just helping you kind of reflect in map out your motivations and aspirations and values and things like that song a lot of I mean a lot of what I had done early on was just looking at job post. I mean, maybe two years before I graduated I was looking at job posting was like looking at the task like what are the tasks and public schools in these jobs that I might be applying for. What am I missing that? I can work on over the next year or two. So just like highlighting that and interviewing. I mean, I mentioned having friends, you know that we were kind of in that same Circle so I could call one of them and say hey can we practice this? I mean it's a weird feeling but just do it because If you can if you can get someone to listen to you just have them ask you a few questions. I found one of the toughest things for me to get over was that short pitch in introducing yourself off. Like it happened a few times where I hung up on a phone interview and I was like, how did I put my foot in my mouth and I like explaining myself like to me but it's it's odd that it just it takes practice to you know to do it in a way that's concise. And to communicate the value that you bring and not take 20 minutes to do it and to be on on point and showing that you understand their needs and you took me back to the informational interviews just expanding yourself outside of your network. Just talking to a new people that are not in your department and your discipline. It gives you those opportunities to kind of nail that down so that by the time you get off interview, you've messed it up a few times and like you're good now. Yeah, I like that. Yeah. Yeah, you mess it up and then and then you get you get good at it know for sure. So we're we're closed end of part one and we've been talking about your journey. We're now at this part of the first position that you that you landed after after you pee. She was it after I bought it at the end. How did that go the the actual moment where you start you went for an interview for a position. That was outside Academia. For this position. It was a few months after I had interviewed for a few prior. Okay, but this position was after okay took the position you're in now you started working on that right after your PhD a few months. There was a few a few months and how so cuz we just talked about how you prepared and you talked about rehearsing and it is weird and even if you can't if you do it on, you know, just at the mirror in front of a mirror, it's so it it already works it already can work for you, but how'd you But self-evaluate yourself after let's say your first interview how I know. How did you feel or what effect did you feel that this training had and and down natural you felt that the process was I think I don't want to say fortunately for me because if it wasn't the case, I shouldn't be interviewing for it but like that the the content and the the subject, you know of of the position I was very comfortable with okay, so that helps, you know, sometimes you know, you are qualified to do other things and it can be a little nerve-wracking to you know to kind of be in that new space and also be interviewing but you know to be completely honest this was just it was very comfortable for me and you know, the interview process probably felt easier because I had gone through some pretty intensive interviews in the past. Okay when I left home I was you know, like sweating and thinking like oh, why did I say it like that and but then you reflect and you change and you continue to make yourself better? Okay this just before finishing first part, I think one important thing that that's kind of subtext what what you're saying that I'm hearing or the I think it's important for the listeners to hear is you will do interviews where you come out of them saying why did I say that and oh, yeah, and it's normal. It's it's part of the process of getting cuz interviewing became skill also after, you know, after a certain time you you start knowing what to say you start maybe knowing what sort of questions might come up, but just the fact that you've practice if Charles Rock it kind of lets you go into into the exercise and you know shift gears and and make it, you know, smoother later on birth. If I can share one tip, I just really what I want is for this to be helpful for people that are listening is when we talked about we talk about sometimes Source stories where you get you their behavioral questions, right? So you address a situation the obstacle your actions and then concrete results. Okay, or maybe there are less concrete if their behavioral questions cuz this applies in another context as well. So really, you know, the interview is just to find out about you, right they already see your skills on your CD so long I am in the habit of preparing about four or five different Source stories and just making notes of what those stories are and my notebook before I start the interview took times the question might be different. It might be like a challenge or they might say like, you know, what is a time when you had a disagreement like the question might change but usually the themes are pretty similar so they want to know off. Way that you act in certain situations. So having you know, I prepare those ahead of time. Yeah, and their health super helpful and interviews. Yeah, and yeah and it makes sense and the fact that you've played them they'll come up naturally when exactly yeah, whenever the question comes I have a question for you. Do you know what a source story is sword stands for situation objective action and results. It's a simple framework to help you prepare a few real life stories to share with your interviewers, which will quickly give them an idea of who you are in of who you are in a professional setting and of what they can expect of you as Rebecca just mentioned the key is to prepare the key is to prepare a few and to be ready to quickly deliver them when appropriate while staying focused on the discussion next. I asked Rebecca about her role at talent management a recruitment consulting firm focusing exclusively on phds and on their career develop were so and a document management. I am a research officer and recruitment consultants and just to give you a little bit of context off. My management is a it's pretty much the first recruitment cabinet that specializes in phds so they were founded in France dead. Back years ago, they've been operating for more than more than ten years in France and they're the main mission at a duck is to develop and promote the value of a PhD and the skills that are developed during that that time and how they can contribute to to to Innovation and and you know and and all places in and outside of the academy. So pretty much they have three main functions. They have a recruitment function. So we recruit from these four for our clients. And we also do in-house research on PhD competencies. So we've developed our own competency framework of competencies that you would expect to be helped during the doctoral program. And lastly. We also do workshops. So we use that research to inform workshops on how to develop specific skills or how to approach your career Pursuits and I came across this job actually because it's an important piece of advice through my network. So it was a friend who had started working with them who was taking a mentor Navy leave that said. Hey, this is perfect for you because you already do things like this. So I'd want to just call it. Look there's a part of it that also, you know, it's it's always the advice like this morning. We had a transatlantic webinar a series that we usually host once a month and we give you know, it's a little tips and advice and open it up for questions and I talked about networking this morning that consistently in the research that we do and I mean, I see it study and study again wage that most phds are finding their jobs through their Network. So this is is really important and this is actually how I came in contact with that Doug. So not just making your network but helping them understand what it is that you do what you can bring what you're interested in. So my friend reached out to me on this because she knew I was already writing about professional development and grad school for blogs at Mcgill and things like that. Hm. Yeah, so it has to do with the conversations. You have to write it's it's not only the person who who's your next your next desk neighbor, but it's also the net that kind of craving Network that the people who you exchange with and and with who you talked about with whom you talk about your plans or your ideas for sure. So you heard about this position wage this imagine you sent your CV and were called in for for interviews. Was it the classic experience? It was pretty classic. So I sent a resume as opposed to a CV here in I find sometimes the language gets a bit mixed up. But I'm you know for if you're applying for positions that are not academic you you want to cut your CV down into a resume. That's no more than two pages long. So I had sent out and I had interviewed with them and that was was I mean that was more just of a conversation of me explaining what I like to do and obviously I was very interested in what they were doing. So that was a very a nice kind of process for me at that at that. So you did your research on what they were and what they were doing a few you went on the internet. Yeah, cuz that's that's what they forget is. If you are in an interview and know the company or or the organization quite well, people will feel that and it'll it'll make a difference in your interview to walk. I'll sure I mean I didn't even think to say that but yeah, I mean anytime I go into an interview even an informational interview because I know we talked about this in part one. I don't just ask somebody I look at them who they are what they're doing where they work. What sector do they work in? What kind of challenges are that? Is that sector facing like what can I bring to the table that's going to meet their needs a bath. So, yeah for sure before you interview anywhere you want to definitely read up on what you know, what the company does who works there what they're working on what their backgrounds are be a researcher. Yeah. Exactly. And again, that's something that that we do research find information understand it and and make sense out of it. And in this case prepared then, you know interact or exchange. Someone showing that hey I've done my homework. I'm generally interested and and we can have a really interesting conversation because there's a you know, there's a basis upon which we're going to work on. I'm just going to I'm not going to start asking you questions from scratch. Like who are you? What do you do? Right. That's it's it's a loss of your time and if there's two in often these people are busy. So it's it's even just a signal sign of respect to to to have taken the time to do that homework and in my point of view, of course, so yeah, the next question then is what was this position. Did you remember the well, is it still the same title that that that you that you have today? The one that the one that way when you got hired? Yes, so it's only been since September I've been with that dog. And that's a contract actually. So what specifically I can tell you what what I've done in the past almost year. I've worked on their page detectives project which is a a national study that the adult can walk across Canada phds and looking at their skills that they develop during the doctor their doctoral research as well as their employment outcomes, you know, so we look at life like where do they work? They work in R&D do they work outside of R&D? You know, what's their salary like or they happy things like this? But the thing that I really love about what I ducked off in their research is that they also talk to employers so they really are A bridge between the academic and the and the non-academic and there's so much, you know value that that brings into entering that conversation because you know, we see so much and not just in Canada, but I'll speak to that because we're in Canada right now, you know, even at the government level they're looking at home trying to connect phds with meaningful employment that can contribute back into the economy and The Innovation and you know things that that we want to do and just with the academy it's doesn't really work that easily, you know, it's not a one-way street. So I love it. You know, we engage with employers we do research with employers also employers who hire phds what is their experience like, you know, what are their strengths? What can they work on our and you know, where where can we take this? It's it's really interesting and last December. I was in Palm. Let invited by my alma mater and talk to talk about careers to the current students in my Ph.D program. And one of the things talking with the professors wage that they had difficulty was finding this bridge because it's there to kind of hermetically sealed world's Academia and Industry and it's really interesting to have this entity that really dead is in conversation with both sides and can make a bridge with the two. I totally totally agree. It's so important because there are misperceptions on both sides and Thursday we do this work. From both sides to try and alleviate some of those misperceptions and make that connection easier. I remember one person who was there who who gave a presentation was giving a this person was not in Academia was in a domain that was kind of, you know, informatics programming something like that. But the the person was a life sciences PhD and clearly there was there were perceptions like you were saying from a company of first first, why are we hiring her PhD they're going to want this much money. They they're going to be I don't know antisocial but I think I am in this example that I'm thinking it was a lot about oh they're going to be asking for a lot and just because they have their degree and I think that there's a lot of misconceptions like that from one side job. The other so people that that are in Industry may have this idea of the you know, the shoveled anti social scientists, maybe some some, you know, maybe a little bit noisy. I don't know but then also from Academia looking to the seriously it's the mean I know the mean Shark Tank, you know, I think I'd really be curious to first one one point when I'm going to let you talk about I am going to share a link to the the the document that that a. Published based on the Georgia Peach Texas. It's really really interesting and important. But yeah, what what experience do you have about? Kind of breaking these these misconceptions and these kind of distortions that that are kind of natural because it's too there are two age hermetic world, but do you have some experiences or some stories as you can tell about about this? I mean, I'm not sure if I have a specific example of you know, breaking down a door and not changing a you know a culture but I think really because yeah, I have seen those misperceptions on both sides and because we do you need to focus groups and qualitative interviews and things like this as well. So we get to see those things come out and you know, if I could maybe do even just to make suggestions on you know, how we get to that is just to keep opening doors to communicate with each other when I talked about in part one like expanding your network like, you know, it's just kind of both micro steps in expand your network page. To you know people in the industry people outside of Academia and they're going to get to know you and they're going to see that not all phds or the way that they thought and you're going to get to know their companies and see the same page also would you know, if I were in the position, I would encourage more kind of conversations or events that where you know, we bring industry took a bit into Academia phds in Canada. I mean, we make up 1% of the population. They don't know what to expect they sometimes, you know, I hear them players say like Monday, we we know that PCS can really solve a lot of our problems, but we I mean, we don't even know how to Value their skills or you know how that happens. Like we kind of like when we're in the academic world every day. We kind of take it for granted that we understand what's happening, but for people who are not inside that I mean, they have no idea what goes on in your lab. So just kind of opening it up a little bit too easy. Show them like Hey, we're we're we're solving problems. We're doing Innovative things like, you know, there can start to be a more of a connection. Yeah, and here is what I think your name and organization like like yours can help is it's because as a, you know, each student having the the weight of of doing this in a breaking these barriers might be a little heavy and I think universities some of them are starting to do some of that work two of trying to help students, you know, find first develop their skills and second find, you know, find paths to follow professionally. I think I see more and more of these projects coming up in my conversations, but traditionally that was that hasn't been the case, you know universities Universe the and then you know, the the in the past they haven't been so involved. In well, well students want to do something after they PhD that is not in University Let's help them do that. And as you mentioned before in I think it was in in our off the brake, it's not the exception. It's the majority of people who end up not being in an academic track position. Yes, I mean roughly in Canada about 60% of phds will go on to take careers outside of outside of the Academy. I think around 18 months 18% or Skipper take will find full-time full tenure track positions and around another 20% will work in other positions off as far as like administrative stuff and things like this and within universities. So if you look at 60% going out that's you know, that's not really the alternative the majority. Now one thing that what you were saying was eliciting for me was when you do when you go especially if you didn't prepare during your PC, when you go do go to that first interview with as many things that can happen in one a big one is imposter syndrome, right? And so you're dealing with you not believing that you're the person for the job. But then you also dealing with the misperception of the interviews of what how what's how is a piece you going to fit into my team. But again, I think things may be changing some companies surely have already seen that that uh, people coming out of this type of degree become great team members and have a specific situation skills, but I don't think it's it's generalized. I think it's still there's a lot of work a lot of work to do on that side for sure. Yeah. Yeah there is but we're doing a job. Can you please share a little bit about because you've done this these quite large, you know studies and I'm thinking of pH detective people for someone who is was listening to to our tour to the podcast and who might be thinking. What should I invest in right now? I'm in the middle of my PhD and EDD. I think I've decided I want to invest invest in skills that are going to serve me after that don't have to do with my subject matter specifically. What's one big or a couple of months of most of the most important pain points that you see that when transition comes there's there's a a lack of maybe experience on this domain on that domain, you know, what's the the blind spots that maybe you can start working on right away. Actually, even if you just asked me the one I think I would default back to the network the network networking because it allows for the development of other competencies right when you could start broadening your network. You have to start explaining to people. I mean, I don't want to repeat what we talked about before but you have opportunities to work on your oral communication. I mean one thing down here from employers very often and you know, I have to admit that it's often true is that phds can be very verbose hm and not everyone outside of Academia home is ready to you know have the time to sit down for 30 minutes for you to explain to them. You know, what they do. What you do you need to be able to do it in like two minutes. Or less so all the skills that we look at then in our competency framework, you know, the there are subsets of them that we call Core competencies and these are competencies that would expect to see in phds regardless of their discipline or their background or you know for a number of different things that we looked at. We look at some potentially confounding variables and we find this set of wage and then sees you know where it doesn't matter. So I would say, you know for someone that's looking if you're halfway through and you want to get started, you know, the net expanding your network is a good thing because if you start to talk to other people in a field where you might want to go you will figure out what those skills are that are important in that field right now, like I'm not sure if that you need to work on a technical skill like maybe some coding programming or you're doing I mean even in education, you know, like everything's going in Tech right now, so you need to kind of top off. Next up there if you're looking for positions or you know, maybe you want to go into Consulting and you need to work on something else. So for someone who doesn't even know where they want to go yet. If you can just start broadening your your scope of the people that you talk to you'll start to some of those other competencies will naturally come out. It's it's very good ol boys. But now I'm going to put the question on its head and and ask this again for people who are maybe thinking of ocean. I should maybe start interviewing for this or that position, but I don't have any skills. What are the greatest skills? They never knew that they had. Based on your experience that they never knew that they would do you come out, you know, when you come out of a PhD, there's stuff that you developed just organically and not home not intentionally, but that coming out like you say you you you had a duck expects people coming out of a PC with a kind of a certain group of competencies and schools. Are there are there one or two that are the most common or or that that or there are most prized by by employers maybe that Well sure, so. I think you know focusing on your project management skills is is good advice. We usually kind of suggest to people, you know position yourself as a project manager cuz you are dead. And you know, I've heard it from phds where like they know that they handle their projects, but they never really thought about presenting it that way. So I mean you really have to to do that kind of long-term project in to finish a project, you know, it takes a lot of time management. It can be financial management really key. If you're managing your grants and things like that. I mean clearly you have analytical skills and end up thinking and things like this but you know, you also have things like persistence and you know, there are a lot of collaborations in Academia. So I think you know often times she could be this misperception that we're not collaborative. But if you do work in a highly corrosive collaborative space like try and hide like that, you know highlight how many partners you've had or people you've worked with and and things like this. So definitely positioning yourself as a problem solver as a project manager, you know, not not just a you're not just your scientific and Technical expertise. So that's usually what people think of but we actually look at a number of different transversal transferable skills things like written and oral communication and and other things like odd behaviors and dispositions like creativity and reliability and you know ethics and things like this. They're all things that you bring to the table. Excellent. Now, I'm Rebecca we're reaching the end of the interview and it feels that the time when the time went too fast, but one thing that I'd like to ask given, you know, given that that your organization the organization you work with really has , how can I say this, you know has really focused really really sharply on phds and on you know what they bring their potential is I'm imagining that people listening might be thinking how can I get in touch with with a dog or can a duck bring come to my university and talk can Rebecca come and give a talk? How how can they may be benefit from all the knowledge that that you guys have accrued so far off and maybe you talked about workshops that that are promoted by a dock. How how does that work? How they how can they kind of benefit from from all this experience? And this this know how and this framework that you guys said? Sure, I would actually love to speak to that for a moment also for for phds to to understand a little bit how recruiters work. I didn't even get into talking about my my job as a recruiter cuz I do a job interview phds quite often. It's a moment now so as in on the equipment side as an external recruitment firm, you know, we work for the client, which means that not just that long for the client, but you know, we that's that's who pays us so, you know, we're never charging phds money if you were a job Seeker, you don't pay a recruitment firm. So that's something that I thought, you know, I'd like to clarify cuz I get those kind of questions a lot and typically like when we have a client who's looking for specific posts, we you know we go and we searched for you but we're supposed we also post all of our open post on our website so you can always check there and see if there's anything or you can submit a spontaneous application and we'll see it there in once we do have a position that comes up the dog. With your experience your expertise and your motivations, then we would reach out to you. So that's the recruitment end. And as far the workshops go a dog has a a wonderful collection of workshops that they give and they speaking as someone who comes from, you know, having a PhD in education. I find that they're they're very they're quite good and they're very interactive. They always do. Well, I mean the past few months. I've been kind of special times but they're always kind of like small groups that it's not just like a webinar where they're telling you things. Like there's what you have to put the work into it. So something you know that I like about I. Is you know, they they don't ever want to put any additional financial burden on phds. So we don't charge phds for workshops. We don't give them individually what we do is we offer them at an organizational level so dead. It would be a university or Research Center or a lab or I mean whoever it is if you get a group of people together that want to do it and and that's the way that that happens off so you can always reach anyone who's interested, you know can always reach out to us. And while we can share our catalog or catalogue is available on the website as well, you know, just for phds who maybe don't have that opportunity at hand. We do offer we do offer a number of kind of open house workshops for phds to come in for free and like I mentioned we've been doing is Atlantic webinar Series where we offer advice and we've been doing that once a month. So we are good providing opportunities in that way. But I mean. Is there weird very open to collaboration were always trying to reach out to new partners. Hey, like if you're in the space, let's talk. Do you want to host an event? You know, I mean, we're always happy to come contribute to a panel or even create one image. Quite a few people. So just before we finish I kind of want to pinpoint this a little bit more imagine someone out there listening and really wants to kind of follow up on what you're saying. So let just tell me if I'm kind of hearing right the thing to do would probably be go talk with your graduate Students Association or with your the career center and say hey, there's this there's this organization a dog and they have great Workshop. Would you be willing to bring this Workshop to the to to us here is is that the way it would be? Yes, absolutely and we've done them for Association. Well, for example, the Canadian Association of graduates and and postdocs Association postdoctoral Scholars, sorry, I mix up the operative so much cuz I work in Chicago. Okay, but yeah, so that that's how how they they'd go about it. Okay, so listeners out there if this struck a chord in new go look at the website go look at a job. The portfolio of workshops and maybe bring them to your University or to your department. I can only recommend having workshops during your graduate school prepare you for for what what's coming after and especially if you know knowing that they are really well very well produced and educationally sound, you know took go take a look and if if one of the if you have a group that might benefit you now know how to do it Rebecca. The next thing would be to ask you if people want to reach out to you off or two to go see what addict is for you to share the you know, the URLs or your social media how you know, what what's the best way to maybe learn about took more and to reach to reach you if they want to ask you questions directly? Star. Well, I believe we have some links that will go in the show notes as far as our websites and I put a doc social media there. But I mean me personally, you know, please reach out to me on LinkedIn. That's that's that's that's no I think nowadays. I maybe it's no longer necessary for me to ask these people who maybe maybe go there immediately, but it's through Linkedin is now I am the best platform to to even reach out to people you might want to meet for an informational interview. I think exactly yes, really really good platform for that. Okay wage Rebecca. I had other questions but time the time goes goes quite fast. Maybe we'll have a chance to talk some other time. But thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your story and and for sharing what you do today. I think it's really important. It's important that organizations like this exist and you didn't mention this directly, but yep. I know that the organization collaborates a lot with universities and with a lot of universities and I think it's it's really great to see something like that off that something like that exists and well it's exists existed for more than ten years. You said starting in France, but for me, it's it's quite recently that I learned about it. So, yeah, keep up the good the good work and thank you for having mean on top of PC. Thank you so much for having me. I think it's wonderful what you're doing and getting people stories out there and it's been a pleasure. Thank you for listening all the way through. I hope you've enjoyed this episode and that Rebecca's insights will help you on a journey. If you did share this episode with your friends, they will surely enjoy it too. And now it's that time when I offer you new science podcasts to discover today, you will hear the trailer for plants or apology a podcast about plants their place in our life and the people who study them and for a grad student a podcast about life in graduate school produced and hosted by a graduate student roll the tape. View of plants. Don't be silly. Of course you do. You might just not know it yet. I'm Vikram baliga the host of the planter apology podcast the show where we dive into the lives and careers of some really cool people join me each episode as I chat with students scientists and Professionals in the Natural Sciences and figure out what keeps them coming back for more will explore their work the ways they got into their fields. That's why they love plants and nature so much and why you should love those things to play anthropology is laid-back and conversational and we'll keep you laughing and engaged whether you're a scientist or not follow along for this adventure of the sciences and keep being really cool playing people. Hi, I'm Alana and I'm a fourth-year PhD student. I'm more than likely re-editing that manuscript for the 20-second time, or maybe I'm in my fourth of June meeting today who can tell, but mostly I'm probably working on my podcast its called dear grad student and it's a podcast for grad students to celebrate commiserate and support one another through grad school each weekday interview other grad students and academics better experience from imposter syndrome sycom dealing with mentors racism Academia, or you know, all the other Joys that come along with grad school not a grad student. Maybe you're thinking about grad school. Maybe it's just finished and you really want to reminisce about the painfully glorious days. Either way. I think you should come check it out. You can find the podcast at Deer grad student twitter.com a grad student or on your thoughts podcast app new episodes are posted every Monday and until next time warmest regards best wishes sincerely A lotta. And that's it for this episode of Papa PhD. Thanks for tuning in. Happy sharing and see you next week. Thanks for listening to another episode of the papa PhD podcast home head over to papa phd.com for show notes. And for more food for thought about non-academic post-grad careers. He'll always be happy to share inspiring stories new ideas and useful resources here on the podcast. So make sure you subscribe on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts to always keep up with the discussion and to hear from our labor guests.