19 Episode results for "Peter Lindbergh"

094 | Ocean Commotion

Aaron Mahnke's Cabinet of Curiosities

10:46 min | 2 years ago

094 | Ocean Commotion

"Our world is full of the unexplainable. And if history is in open book, all of these amazing tales right there on display just waiting for us to explore. Welcome. The cabinet of curiosities. Moving to a new place can be rough not only. Do you have to learn a new environment? There's also the hassle of finding someplace to live Baldassare Forestier learned this the hard way when he left his home in Italy in nineteen. Oh, one Baldassare had begun his life in Sicily in eighteen seventy nine before moving to America at the turn of the century, it had a huge argument with his father about his future. His father wanted him to stay in Italy and abide by what he thought was best for him. But Baldassarre had other plans, he wanted to run his own business build a life for himself halfway across the world. He defied his father's wishes and set off on his own California. He purchased ten acres of farmland in Fresno intent on capitalizing on the warm climate by starting his own citrus empire as he started planting fruit trees and cultivating grapevines on his property. However, he noticed to problems with his new home. I it was too hot. The temperatures in Fresno during the summer often reached his high as one hundred twenty degrees Fahrenheit, s-, which made working in the fields a grueling endeavor for the new farmer. Second the land purchased was worthless. The soil was too hard and the climate to dry and not to mention that it got so cold during the winter that everything died, nothing could grow in such a harsh environment. But Baldassare tried anyway. All summer, he picked and Doug planted until he couldn't take the sun's aggressive heats any longer. Except he couldn't retreat to his farmhouse air conditioning, didn't exist yet. So his choices were either. It's a boil in the fields or boil in the house. Then he remembered something about his home back in Italy. How cool it was in the darkened catacombs under the streets Baldassare needed some place to get out of the heat in the only way he would get one is if he dug himself, which is what he did he dug himself a seller on his land, where he could rest in the shade during the middle of the day, and then get back to work when things cooled down. He loved it docking underground dropped his surrounding temperature by twenty degrees, and it gave him an idea what if he could do more than rest in his little spot? What if he could not only beat the heat, but also mother nature at her own game? The farmland above ground may have been worthless. But citrus had a better chance down where it was cooler, the fruit could be protected from things like wind and frost during the winter months. He. Doug, a little more and a little more after that even got his brother to help him eventually he was able to carve out a spot big enough to plant a citrus grove with clear access to sunlight and rain, but shielded from animals human hands and troublesome, weather, and it worked oranges, lemons, grapefruits and grapes. Flourished in the cool damp environment. The forest ear brothers had dug out not content with having fixed his farming situation, though, Baltasar set out to fix his living situation as well. He built himself a new house on the property bigger and properly cooled for those Smeltering summer months. He crafted new patios grottoes in which to relax away from the heat winding hallways connected. Sixty five rooms each adorned with custom stonework and greenery. And he was able to enjoy it throughout the building process, which took over forty years to complete and forty years, does sound like a long time to build a house, but that's because it isn't easy digging, and moving ten acres worth of dirt. Even with the help of your own brother rather than build his new home on top of his land ball czar kept digging out his space away from the heat took his love for the Italian catacombs even further by digging out of kitchen complete with a wood burning stove as well as a bathroom, and multiple bedrooms. He turned the citrus grove into an open courtyard with over twenty varieties of trees and they're still growing and producing fruit today. The forest year underground gardens are tourist destination today, maintained by Baldassare descendants. The location has. Even become a popular destination for weddings, if only Baldassare had lived long enough to see what he'd created become so popular after all it was. He who said to make something with a lot of money that is easy, but to make something out of nothing. Now, that is something. This episode of cabinet of curiosities was made possible by Robin Hood. Robin Hood is an investing app that lets you buy and sell stocks ET apps, options, and cryptos, all commission free. While other brokerages, charged up to ten dollars for every trade. Robinhood doesn't charge any commission fees, so you can trade stocks and keep all your profits. Plus, there is no account minimum deposit needed to get started. So you can start investing at any level. The simple intuitive design of robinhood makes investing easy for newcomers and experts like view, easy to understand charts and market data and place a trade in just four taps on your smartphone. You can also view stock collections such as one hundred most popular with Robin Hood. You can learn how to invest in the market as you build your portfolio. Discover new stocks track your favorite companies and get custom notifications price movements. So you never miss the right moment to invest, Robin Hood is giving listeners of cabinet of curiosities of free stock like apple Ford or sprints to help you build your portfolio. Sign up at curious. Cities dot robinhood dot com. You might be surprised to learn that what we know about the ocean pales in comparison to what we know about space. Even though over seventy percent of the earth is covered by water. We've only explored roughly five percent of it. A total of three people have been to the deepest part of the ocean in the Mariana trench while four times that number have been to the moon and given our preoccupation with life on other planets. It's no wonder we've spent most of our time and energy focusing on what's above us instead of what's below us just think what might have happened or not happened at sea fortune, hunter, Peter Lindbergh NOP and focused on the ocean floor. In the summer of two thousand eleven Lindberg and his ocean x team were on mission. They've been scouring the depths of the Baltic Sea between Sweden and Finland in search of sunken ships the treasures, they were seeking weren't gold or jewels, though of wine and other spirits as turns out alcohol recovered from shipwrecks sells for a pretty penny. They've been sweeping the area for hours at two hundred eighty five feet below, but the team sonar had come up empty bay couldn't give up though. Not yet not with the jackpot awaiting them aboard some sunken wreck. So they kept at watching for any changes on the screen. When suddenly something appeared. It was big and round and it didn't make a lick of sense. The object measured sixty feet in diameter, and there was a deep track in the ground behind it. Whatever it was, it had traveled roughly a thousand feet before coming to stop the divers took they're finding public nothing. They had encountered at that depth had that shape. It was unnaturally circular and it size should have prevented it from moving so far along the ocean floor. Lindbergh wondered if maybe it hadn't come from nature. Maybe it hadn't come from earth at all. While geologists have claimed the object is nothing more than very large rock formation. That hasn't stopped enthusiasts and conspiracy theorist from speculating about what has become known as the Baltic Sea anomaly, tabloids and websites picked up Lindbergh story, immediately taking their cues from him and reporting the mysterious object as a sunken UFO, and if that had been the only instance of such an oddity the story might have died there. However, what they'd found in the Baltic Sea was not the only one of its kind. Online groups that investigate you Esso's. Unidentified submersible objects stumbled upon something similar and equally as strange as Lindbergh's anomaly USO enthusiasts had been trawling images of the ocean floor in Google earth. When they to notice something disc this discovery happened to be at the bottom of the North Atlantic measured almost three miles wide, and there was a forty six mile lung trench behind. Yup. The object had also moved. Again, experts were quick to dispel any notions of extraterrestrial activity. Their story was and will continue to be the object is just a large rock of some kind. But that hasn't been enough to dissuade the hopefuls. These objects are impossibly circular so much so that they don't look organic and the one in the North Atlantic hasn't shown any signs of stopping its migration. Why would something so large and heavy continue to move as far as it has already? The answer is no one knows for certain, but it doesn't look like any submarines or planning an expedition anytime soon, until then these underwater anomalies will continue to confound skeptics, and inspired dreamers. They're still a good chance that life exists beyond our planet. We just don't know where we'll find it will continue looking among the stars. But we shouldn't forget that there's a whole world to explore right here on this rock we call home. Maybe all we need to do is look a little closer below the surface. I hope you've enjoyed today's guided tour of the cabinet of curiosities subscribe for free on apple podcasts. Or learn more about the show by visiting curiosities podcast dot com. The show was created by me. Erin minke in partnership with how stuff works, I make another award winning show called Lor, which is a podcast book series, and television show. And you can learn all about it over at the world of Lor dot com. Until next time stay curious.

Baldassare Robin Hood Peter Lindbergh Baltic Sea Italy Baldassare Forestier Doug North Atlantic apple Sicily Fresno Baldassarre Mariana trench California America Robinhood robinhood Fresno Baltasar
Supermodels | 1

History of the 90s

48:41 min | Last week

Supermodels | 1

"Hi i'm and i'm sarah. And we are two very good friends who love gossip and celebrity scandals for also the host of a new podcast cult. The re we're going to use our as cultural journalist provide you with in-depth analysis of all the stories. You remember and somebody you don't down a for to branch selena time princess and was almost kidnapped little. And what about whitney crack as wax. They're listened to the reheat on july twenty six on the frequency podcast network or wherever you get your podcast when the lights came up on gianni versace cheese nineteen ninety-one fall fashion show in milan. There was electricity and excitement in the air. Instead of sending the usual single model the italian designer sent out models in packs. Long-legged women with bouncy hair sauntered down the runway in twos and threes while wearing for sachi's newest collection. The showstopper was the finale. When four beautiful young women linked arm-in-arm made their way down the catwalk laughing and smiling as they lip sync the words of a pop song that blasted from the speakers. It was the launch of a nineties phenomenon that is as symbolic of the decade as tabloid television and the launch of the internet but a lot more glamorous i'm catholic zora and this is history of the nineties a podcast about a decade that changed the world on this episode. We look at the reign of the supermodels. It's up for debate. But the term supermodel may have first been used by janice dickinson in the nineteen seventy s at least according to dickinson. Maybe you know her. From being the brutally honest judge on america's top model for four seasons but before that she was an incredibly successful model in the seventies and the renowned wild girl of the fashion and disco scene at club fifty four dickinson claims. Not only to be the first supermodel. But that she was also the first person to use the term in about nineteen seventy nine others have given credit for the term to clyde matthew essner the owner of a small model agency in the nineteen forties regardless of when the term was used first. By whom the concept of the supermodel as we know it today didn't really take hold until the late eighties setting the stage. For the iconic supermodel era of the ninety s when a group of beautiful young women transcended the runway and became full service celebrities before we look at the nineties and the supermodels that ruled the runways during that era. Let's go back a little further in fashion history in the nineteen thirties. Forty s and fifty s runway shows put on by designers were very exclusive and according to fashion journalist randy berkman as a result models were largely anonymous to the general public when trashing how who could tour houses were staging shows in the early days. Like in the thirties fifties the sixties even. They were really private affairs. They were just for clients and media. Not even really media like just very very very small. Obviously this is video. But otas were pretty nazi ver- comment and it was a really insular world. Of course there was the occasional model who broke through and became household names. Think twiggy in the nineteen sixties. But it really wasn't until the eighties that models began to infiltrate the mainstream in a noticeable way. And that's partly because of a major industry change. The mass marketing of fashion designer started licensing. Their names and manufacturing moderately priced lines that were affordable to more shoppers. It was no longer just the uber rich wearing the latest. Close from halston ralph lauren. Pierre cardin and calvin klein and with these new accessible lines came big marketing campaigns. Wanna know what comes between me. And my kevin's nothing. Calvin klein jeans this sexy and controversial. Nineteen eighty ad campaign for calvin klein jeans which featured fifteen-year-old brooke shields was banned by abc and cbs. For implying that the young model wasn't wearing any underwear. Calvin klein was the first high fashion designer to launch a separate affordable line called a diffusion line. His skin tight jeans featured a distinctive stitch line on the back along with calvin klein label that distinguished them as a designer status symbol not surprisingly all the controversy over the ads only brought more attention for the brand which sold over seventy million dollars worth of genes in the first year and brooke shields became a household name who pivoted her modelling career to acting. Soon after shields became more than an anonymous face hawking a product. She became a celebrity in her way came other celebrity models in the eighties. L. mcpherson iman jerry hall and christie brinkley and then in january nineteen ninety. The cover of british vogue changed everything you have on that cover stevie crawford prestige hurling team. Linda evangelists naomi campbell. Tatyana teats and you have me basically birth of the super model. That's writer rachel burchfield and she says the iconic cover is the first of three major moments in the evolution of the supermodel going to get to each of them but first let's spend some time looking back at the picture. Let's start at all. The black and white photo on the cover of the january. Nineteen ninety edition of british. Vogue was taken by legendary german photographer. Peter lindbergh lindberg who died in two thousand nineteen at the age of seventy four was known for untouched down images of glamorous leicester's you might be surprised to learn that before making history with that vote cover. Lindbergh captured a similar image for american vogue. That didn't have the same impact in one thousand nine hundred seven. Lindberg received a call from alexander lieberman the creative director of conde nast vogues parent company. He was curious why the photographer never wanted to work for the us version of the magazine. Lindbergh honestly explained that he simply couldn't relate to the images of the over styled women they featured in his words he preferred photos that depicted outspoken adventurous women in control of their own lives. Who weren't concerned about things like social status so lieberman ass lindbergh to show him what he meant in response. Lindbergh went to the beach in santa monica with a group of barely known models. Dressed simply in over-sized white button up shirts. Linda evangelista karen alexander christy. Chillington esta lefebre tatiana. Petites and rachel williams were captured by lindbergh laughing implying around on the beach. The simple images were the antithesis of the formal composition of fashion photography at the time. Those were mainly headshots of heavily made up models when the proofs of the beach shoot arrived at vogue new york office the magazine's editor grace mirabella refused to print the images. She put them in a drawer where they stayed until mirabella was replaced. Six months later by legendary vogue editor anna winter winter. Not only love the pictures. She commissioned lindbergh to shoot the cover for her debut issue with vogue and november nineteen eighty eight it featured israeli model michaela burke q. and a. cropped be jewel jumper in stone wash jeans smiling with her eyes half closed head turning away from the camera at the time it was considered a revelation signaling a move towards an uninhibited bureau listrik representation of beauty as the nineteen eighties. Were drawing to a close british vogue editor. Liz tilberis asked lindbergh to photograph the new woman of the nineties. For the first edition of the decade. Lindbergh's were apply was that he couldn't do it with just one woman. he felt the idea of beauty. Had broadened and it could no longer be summed up with either a blonde blue eyed girl or a sexy brunette so instead he gathered five models in manhattan for what would become an iconic photo. Shoot cindy crawford told vogue in thousand sixteen. They weren't photographed with a ton of hair and makeup. In her words. They were quite undone and she said coming out of the eighties which was all about big hair and boobs pushed up. It felt refreshing and new dressed in simple bodysuits and levi jeans. The girl set the tone of the new decade in two thousand. Sixteen lindbergh told the guardian. He has no idea they were making history with the photo he said because it came together very naturally and effortlessly he never felt they were changing the world. It was just all intuition. There was one other image that captured the new generation of supermodels. I should mention. It's the famous nude photograph taken by her brits. For rolling stone magazine it showed yet another iteration of the supermodel. Naomi cindy christy tatiana. And this time stephanie. Seymour was included instead of linda evangelista. The high contrast black and white image of the five models intertwined arms and legs wrapped around each other was actually taken in nineteen eighty nine and didn't get much attention at the time. It didn't become conic and tell lindbergh's nineteen ninety. British vogue cover introduced the masses to the new supermodel. The next major moment happened. Thanks to singer george michael. He was at a turning point in his career and when he released his nineteen ninety album. Listen without prejudice volume one. The twenty seven year old singer was trying to be considered a serious artist after years as a successful pop star. Michael refused to use his image to promote the album and only did a limited number of interviews. He also chose not to go on the road. Right away saying long tours had a dehumanizing effect that works against both the creative process and a healthy personal life and most importantly to this story the singer told the record label he would not appear in any music videos. Michael argued that videos destroyed the artistic integrity of a song by encouraging listeners. To accept a single interpretation of it as you can imagine. The label was not pleased. They still want something to air on. Mtv which the time could make or break. The success of new release. Michael solution would change the course of history after seeing the british vogue. Cover featuring peter lindbergh's black and white supermodel photo george. Michael decided naomi christy. Linda cindy and tatiana should replace him in the video for the song. Freedom ninety freedom ninety addressed michael struggles with identity. Artistic growth and stardom with poignant lyrics like. I just hope you understand. Sometimes the clothes do not make the man and music that producer mark ronson has described as a funk groove masterpiece it's become a classic it definitely could stand on its own merits but the video of five supermodels lip synching the lyrics. Turn it into an iconic pop culture moment. The video was directed by david fincher. Who was at the start of his career and we'll go on to make classic nineties films like seven and fight club. It was shot over several days at merton park studio in london and like the british vogue cover featured naomi campbell christy. Turlington linda evangelista. Cindy crawford and tatiana petites. The result was a six and a half minute. Moody romantic video filmed in neo noir tones. That's been watched over a hundred million times on youtube. It was revolutionary for many reasons including the fact that the models were the focus of the video. In fact they were the stars throughout the eighties models had appeared in lots of music videos but only as the sexy girlfriend to the lead singer. Think tony catan and david coverdale in the nineteen eighty-seven whitesnake video for here. I go again the first face we see in the george. Michael video is linda evangelista. The canadian model who is considered by many to be the catalyst of the supermodel group. Her short hair is platinum blonde which she died the night before in a spur of the moment decision. Surprising everyone on set of the music video. P- next we see naomi campbell dancing as she listens to freedom. Ninety unhedged phones. She's wearing a big pair of boots. That belonged to the boyfriend of the stylist in charge of the ships. Camilla nickerson told vogue magazine in two thousand sixteen. That director david fincher was incredibly specific. About how we wanted christy turlington to walk in with a long white sheet. That was light enough for the light to shine through and to get that effect. They used expensive irish linen. And that used up nickerson's entire budget so everyone else's clothes came from nickerson's wardrobe or in the case of naomi's boots nickerson's boyfriends wardrope not included the big sweater that linda evangelista famously pulls up over her head. That scene by the way wasn't planned just something. That evangelist improvised and after seeing move venture responded by putting a camera and a light inside her sweater and filming it. When the video was released it introduced the new ninety supermodel to the entire. Mtv generation and caught the eye of a famous designer would create the third and possibly the ultimate supermodel moments in march nineteen ninety-one legendary fashion designer gianni for saatchi closed his couture show in milan with linda. Christie naomi and cindy marching down the runway in black orange yellow mini dresses lip synching. George michael's freedom reminiscent of the songs music video. Michael was in the front row watching as the girls. Straight down the runway with his video projected behind them here again is writer. Rachel burchfield johnny researchy as a designer was iconic in brilliant. But he also who's very tapped into music. He was very tapped into the culture and it was kind of a full circle moment where music and fashion and the met. And there's this shot of the four of them walking arm-in-arm on the catwalk lip synching freedom. Ninety in the sake show. It became a hugely defining moment in fashion and was a point where these women as supermodels prior to supermodels runway models and photo models didn't usually overlap. A model was either one or the other. The new nineties model did both and a whole lot more as we would soon find out. So who are these five or six women who infiltrated every aspect of pop culture in the nineties and what made them so popular. Let's start with linda evangelista. As i mentioned earlier evangelista is considered by many to be the catalyst. She's from saint catharines ontario. The daughter of a general motors worker at age sixteen evangelista was discovered by a scout from elite model agency while competing in a t niagara contest. As soon as she finished high school she started working. Full time in the fashion industry relocating to paris in nineteen eighty-four that's when she met fifteen year old christy turlington. Who'd been invited to the city of lights by the ford modeling agency. Kristie grew up in northern california and was more concerned with horses than modeling but when a photographer took her picture and sent them to. I lean forward. The grand dame of the modeling industry spotted something special in the young team in the summer of nineteen eighty five on a job in london christie. Naomi campbell who was a year younger campbell the uk born daughter of jamaican immigrants was discovered by an elite modeling scout at age. Fifteen while studying ballet at the italia conti performing arts school in london. Linda chuck both of the younger girls under her wing. And by nineteen eighty-nine christie was staying in linda's new york apartment. The same building where naomi also lived. That's when the original supermodel trio was born a tight click. They moved together out together and even began to be booked together and for a time. They were all with leap paris. Which was run by gerald marie. Linda's husband at the time fashion insiders began calling them the trinity a term. They hate but couldn't escape as they became a bigger sensation on the runways in the pages of magazines and on the dance. Floors of new york nightclubs. For example by nineteen ninety linda. Evangelista had been on sixty magazine covers and was under contract to revlon as the charlie perfume. Girl evangelista also made history with a quote that has haunted her ever since in fact evangelist does name is barely ever mentioned without referring to it in october. Nineteen ninety she told a reporter we have the saying christie and i. We don't wake up for less than ten thousand dollars a day through the years. The quote has morphed a bit most commonly remembered as i don't get out of bed for less than ten thousand dollars a day. The statement echoed around the fashion world. And there was definitely some backlash but rachel burchfield looks at it a bit differently swagger confidence that we so often see with name and now here comes linda. Evangelista saying that in. It's a whole new era nauseous for modeling but for women. And it's an it's. It's all at once empowering and also kind of off putting mike diva i choose to look at it as okay. Linda hacked. If i could make ten thousand dollars a day. If that were a possibility for me. I don't think i'd wake up for less than that either. And it's just like she knew her power and she harnessed it. And i love that. Despite the controversial comment evangelista remained a highly in demand. Supermodel some say. The models career took off because of her marriage to drawled murray. Who was the head of elites paris office evangelista was just eighteen which tied the knot with thirty seven year old marie in one thousand nine hundred seven the marriage lasted six years and recently about a dozen women have come forward to say that during that time. They were sexually assaulted by marie. Something that evangelista says she knew. Nothing about but believes probably happened. Other say that evangelist. His career took off because of the alliance. She forged with celebrated fashion photographer. Steven meisel. evangelista was a longtime use of mysel- and once told the new york times that she feels like stevens barbie doll still others say it all happened because of the chances she took with her hair in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight evangelista cut her hair extremely short going against the standard long hair look of most models at that time photographer. Peter lindbergh had convinced her to cut off her hair and initially. She lost several runway jobs because of it but within a couple of months she had appeared on every vogue cover. Evangelista was also constantly dying her hair changing the color seventeen times over five years quick succession. She went from brunette to platinum blonde to a flaming redhead becoming the talk of the industry. Either way she reigned as one of the top supermodels if not the top supermodel for about six or seven years which is an eternity in the fashion world by her side. Where christie naomi. the remaining two thirds of the trinity christie charleston's rise to fame began in nineteen eighty six when she appeared in durant iran's video for notorious the next year. She landed the cover of german vogue and at the age of twenty. She signed a record setting contract. As the new face of calvin klein helping launch the designers new fragrance. Eternity turlington 's name eventually became synonymous with calvin klein particularly after she worked alongside dutch model. Mark vanderloop for the one thousand nine hundred ninety five eternity campaign in the iconic black-and-white odd turlington and vanderloop cozy up on a beach hair slicked. Back they look like they just came in from the ocean. Turlington was also the face of maybelline signing a famous contract with the cosmetics company that paid her eight hundred thousand dollars for just twelve days of work. And in nineteen ninety-three the metropolitan museum of art declared was the face of the twentieth century after famed fashion. Designer ralph pucci created one hundred twenty mannequins modeled after her exclusively for the mets costume. Institutes the final element of the supermodel trinity. Was naomi campbell. She to appeared in music videos in her early days of modeling in fact at age seven. She played a small role in the bob. Marley video for the song. Is this love. Legendary reggae singer is pictured putting a blanket over the sleeping pint-sized future. Supermodel campbell is of chinese jamaican heritage and was raised by her grandmother and aunts in south london while her mother toured europe as a professional dancer at the age of sixteen a year after being discovered naomi landed her first cover on elle magazine and then in nineteen eighty eight at the age of eighteen. She became the first black woman to appear on the cover of french vogue breaking down barriers for other models of color like tyra banks over the years. Naomi became known as the queen of the runway. Here's randi berkman. Like her walk was just so other worldly like the way that she moves down a runway is just like the confidence of the just movements are so natural and so beautiful and so sexy and i think her persona was also larger than life. Like all of them were up. I purrs especially as carried through with pretty timeless at this point but despite her obvious. Talent and stunning looks naomi. Campbell had to fight against being racially sidelined through her career. Campbell has said that she felt she needed to be twice as good as a white model to be considered. Campbell has also revealed that one of the reasons she kept booking shows despite industry. Racism is that fellow members of the supermodel trinity linda. Evangelista and christy turlington refused to walk in shows without her at the beginning of the nineties. The three women known as the trinity seemed to be everywhere becoming as big or bigger than movie stars. not only were they modeling. They were also in music videos on talk shows and seen hanging around together in the pages of celebrity magazines. Eventually the trinity was expanded to the big five bringing tatiana. Petites and cindy crawford. Into the supermodel folds tatiana petites was born in hamburg germany and was first discovered by photographer. Peter lindbergh at the age of seventeen and then moved to california to pursue modeling. She's been called the most mysterious of the supermodels partly because of the five. She is the only one who didn't really become a household name. She was eventually replaced in the big five by german model. Claudia schiffer but tatiana west certainly. No less beautiful than the others with her cat like is in her perfect bom structure and like the other super supers. She was the face of numerous coveted campaigns including chanel calvin klein and for saatchi the fifth member of the big five on the other hand maybe the most well known. Here's rachel burchfield. I remember the most is cindy crawford because she was midwestern girl like me. She's from illinois. i'm from kansas. She was brennan butter. America's sweetheart. I remember watching her on. Mtv's house of style Which was a whole other. That was very different too because you did not see supermodels or models hosting tv programs and so then you've got cindy crawford for six years from nineteen eighty nine to nineteen ninety-five on house of style. Nineteen ninety two iconic pepsi commercial that she was in the super bowl. I can still see that in my mind right now on route. I would have to say cindy crawford to me is just like the ultimate supermodel cindy. Crawford's rise to fame began in one thousand nine hundred eighty two when won the look of the year contest held by the elite modeling agency. And although she was considered an all american girl she was not the typical blonde that had dominated modeling for the past. Thirty years. crawford had brown hair brown eyes in an olive complexion. Plus she had more curvy affleck build and of course that famous beauty mark near her mouth early on some potential clients wanted her to remove the mole but she always said no way. Make no mistake. Though crawford wasn't just a pretty face. She studied chemical engineering at northwestern. University before dropping out to pursue a career in modeling crawford was also a shrewd businesswoman when she didn't jive with sports illustrated producers crawford shot her own swimsuit calendar in nineteen ninety-two and gave a portion of the proceeds to charity. An exercise video called shape. Your body followed later that year. Which was mainly cindy on a beach in a bathing suit with her perfect hair and body lifting little hand weights. Five crawford was also one of the first models to sign a big endorsement deal that went beyond the fashion or cosmetics world the nineteen ninety-two pepsi commercial. That rachel mentioned show cindy in cut off jeans and a tank top getting out of a bright red lamborghini and walking over to pepsi vending machine. Two young boys watching all she chugs back. A cold can of pepsi. Great new pepsi can introducing a whole new way to look at pepsi. Imc it's beautiful. The ad one procedures cleo award in the soft drink category for the bbdo ad agency which stated they picked crawford for the ad promoting pepsi's new look because of her all looks and her personality and bbdo executive said they tried lesser known models. But the magic just wasn't there wasn't alone more and more companies. We're going with one of the five supermodels for high profile campaigns. The new york times reported in nineteen ninety-two that recession. weary marketers. trying to save money by cutting back on the number of ads they run. Were hiring more expensive models. That would definitely get noticed. They wanted more bang for their buck. And supermodels cindy crawford. Were a guaranteed no-brainer. The result consumers were seeing the same faces over and over promoting everything from perfume too purses. In addition to pepsi cindy crawford appeared in ads for revlon and compete bags and rachel mentioned. She hosted the hugely popular. Mtv show house of style. Hi i'm cindy crawford. Welcome to house houses style coming to you. This time from paris this city is always buzzing with style and glamour but even more so right now as press impassioned buyers from crawford seem to be everywhere appearing not only in fashion magazines but also in playboy and sports illustrated prince even wrote a song about her called cindy and if that wasn't enough at the height of her fame. Cindy crawford married high profile. Hollywood actor richard gere who has starred in a long list of blockbuster movies including pretty woman. The couple i met at a star-studded barbecue hosted at the home of photographer herbert's around nineteen eighty-eight gear was thirty nine and crawford twenty two. Despite the seventeen year age difference they married in december. Nineteen ninety-one at a spontaneous las vegas wedding exchanging homemade tin foil rings at the altar back in the day gear and crawford were a legit power couple on par with jay z. Ambience say okay. Maybe more like john legend and chrissy teigen before she was cancelled. They were both at the height of their careers and when they got together people can stop talking about them take. For example their arrival at the nineteen ninety-one academy awards crawford's plunging read vir- sachi gown inspired countless lookalike dresses and became so influential. That it even has its own wikipedia page but like a lot of hollywood marriages. This one did not last the couple split up in one thousand nine hundred ninety five. After four years together during the marriage the couple was constantly the target of gossip and rumors tabloid papers were relentless with the accusations. That gearan crawford got married as a publicity stunt because they were both hiding the fact they are gay. The rumors got worse. When cindy appeared on a provocative cover vanity fair magazine in nineteen ninety-three with openly. Gay musician katie lang. The next year in nineteen ninety-four gear and crawford paid for a full page ad in the london times proclaiming among other things that they are heterosexual monogamous and reports of a divorce are totally false years later. Crawford said the real reason for their split was partly the seventeen year age gap and partly their busy schedules. The movie star and supermodel. We're constantly working in different parts of the world and apparently they had to check in with secretaries to find out what was going on in each other's lives by the time they put their beller mansion on the market they have reportedly never spent a single night together in the house. Cindy looks back on the supermodel era with fondness and she told british vogue in two thousand nineteen that being part of that group of models was almost like being in a boy band. They were all different but looked good together. Randy bergman agrees. I mean they all kind of had different looks and that was so cool about them. I think they were almost like the original spice girls that way. I think that's also why people love. I think people love like pick your fighter kind of thing you know like people love like things that are different. I mean i know. I love bad so i think they were all supermodels. We were all united in the fact that they were all super super glamorous and their personalities were over the top and in a really glamorously gorgeous play but individually they all had their own persona which were so specific. It was like you know. Linda was the chameleon naomi was the to. Cindy crawford was like the all american sort of most mainstream one like they all. They all had their own their own versions of themselves. Their looks and personalities may have all been different but the supermodels all represented glamour that was unattainable for most people but fun to look at and dream about author. Michael grow says the original ninety supermodels weren't just another way to sell clothes they were the visual projection of the dreams of millions. Of course there were other models working during this time. Who weren't part of the original big five but we're very successful models even supermodels in their own right. Tyra banks helena christianson harlem rooney stephanie seymour. Veronica webb and a young waif-like model by the name of kate. Moss british-born kate. Moss was discovered at age fourteen at jfk airport in new york and helped spark the heroin chic trend as she rose to fame in the early nineties. The look was characterized by a skinny body an angular bone structure pale skin and sometimes even dark circles under the eyes. the look was also a bit androgynous. Which was the direct opposite of the healthy curvy. bodies of the current crop of supermodels. Like cindy crawford and claudia schiffer maas was just five seven and weighed barely a hundred pounds. When moss was seventeen she was selected to be in an ad campaign launching. Calvin clients new oriented lines along with mark wahlberg who is still going by his rap name marky mark the controversial nineteen ninety two campaign featured a topless moss and a buff. Marky mark also shirtless talking about his snug underwear. These these are the nineties man. They just good and hold. Hold me snow from to go get some skins. I'm not gonna put on like no silk underwear. The ad spark negative reaction from some supermodels including claudia schiffer. Who didn't like what she called unnecessary. Nudity a feisty. Young moss responded by saying that's how she made her fortune. She sold her body. Like i sold mine more recently. Though moss has described her time on sat at the calvin klein photo shoot with mark. Wahlberg as extremely uncomfortable remember. She was only seventeen at the time. Ma says she had a nervous breakdown crying in the bathroom and for two weeks after couldn't get out of bed. The calvin klein campaign officially launched kate moss and the look that would soon be called heroin chic by some an elegantly wasted by others by the fall of nineteen ninety-two. Moss had taken over the runway appearing in the famous. Marc jacobs grunge show in her weight. Came a wave of other waiflike models including amber valetta and shalom harlow. But the look didn't last long according to author michael gross. The waif-like was uncommercial and controversy alter survive longer than a normal fashion trend in his book. Model the ugly business. Beautiful women gross writes that masa scrawny look inspired protests. The words feed me were scrawled across posters and billboards and june nineteen ninety-three. The new york daily news described moss as a skin and bones model. Who looks like she should be tied down and intravenously fed magazines even received angry letters from upset readers and by nineteen ninety four. The trend was essentially dead but kate. Moss survived in fact she thrived. She started hanging out with christy turlington. Naomi campbell began dating. Hollywood actor johnny depp. And soon the supermodel group went from the big five to the big six moss and depth. Were another couple in the ninety s. They were often photographed either partying or arguing or sometimes both. They were both accused of trashing hotel rooms and one report suggested. They ordered a champagne filled bathtub at a west london. Hotel in one thousand nine eight in case you're wondering it take spoke thirty six bottles of champagne to fill up a bathtub. Moss developed a notorious reputation for partying hard during the nineties which continued into the two thousands and would eventually cost her several contracts when photos of her doing drugs with boyfriend pete doherty were sold to the tabloids. A book published in two thousand fourteen called champagne supernova claimed the tiny model had earned the nickname the tank because she could snort three grams of cocaine and drink a bottle of vodka in one sitting another supermodel with a super bad reputation was of course naomi campbell through the nineties campbell was linked romantically with many high profile men. Everyone from mike tyson robert deniro to sylvester stallone and eric clapton. She was also engaged at one time to youtube. Bassist adam clayton through the nineties. There were frequent media reports about campbell's diva like behavior. Enter angry outbursts directed at hotel employees airport staff and assistance in nineteen ninety-three campbell was fired by elite modelling in a very public way agency. Founder john casablancas faxed a letter around the world to all of the company's clients stating to whom it may concern. Please be informed that. Do not wish to represent naomi campbell any longer no amount of money or prestige could further justify the abuse that has been imposed on our staff and clients. All who have experienced. This will understand looking back now. It's ironic that casablancas would call out naomi's behavior when he himself was engaged in some pretty disturbing activity according to the guardian casablancas. Who moved in social circles with jeffrey epstein. Donald trump was notorious for sleeping with his teenage models for example in one thousand nine hundred eighty three. He had a public relationship with model. Stephanie seymour casablanca's was forty. One seymour just fifteen. But getting back to naomi campbell. In recent years she's become an activist and philanthropist but is still often saddled with her diva identity. It's hard not to consider whether that identity was partly shaped by media and public. That played into the angry black woman. Trope sure campbell misbehaved in the nineties. But so did the likes of mark wahlberg and hugh grant but they have long since been forgiven campbell. Herself told harpers bizarre in twenty twenty that the angry black woman label has been used against her many times. She says in an effort to silence her her response. Well here i am. The ninety supermodel moment really began to wind down around nineteen ninety-five most of the spurs had grown too big for the fashion world and were mostly absent from runways. They were too busy filming movies hosting tv shows and recording pop records naomi campbell singing baby woman on her nineteen ninety-four album by the same name that was widely panned by critics and the public. Some of the supers even got into the restaurant business in nineteen nine five claudia schiffer elle macphearson and naomi campbell opened the first fashion cafe at. New york's rockefeller center with entrepreneur. Brothers tomasso and francesco beauty. The fashion cafe was kitschy tourist spot all like the hard rock cafe with lots of fashion memorabilia and very little emphasis on food the grand opening of new york location attracted fashion and hollywood elite like gianni and donatella for saatchi tyra banks and eileen ford as well as stephen baldwin. David copperfield the way in brothers and john stewart at the opening schiffer told reporters. It's our baby. We make all the decisions the difference between the girls today and models of the past. We're not only interested in fashion. We're going in so many different directions at once. We work harder at night and on the weekends. Three months later things were going so well. That christy turlington decided to come on board and soon seven. More locations were added in places like london jakarta and new orleans but as author matt haig pointed out in his book brand failures. The connection between models and food was not an obvious. One and fashion was not a theme that made people hungary plus the beauty brothers were mismanaging things behind the scenes eventually leading toward litany federal charges and lawsuits as a result. All of the fashion. Cafes closed down in one thousand nine hundred ninety eight as supermodels continued spending more and more time away from the runways. Some designers and fashion editors were becoming less enamored with them for other reasons. Tired of bad attitudes high prices. Some designers and fashion editors started looking beyond the handful of women who had been ruling. The runways for the past decade. Plus randy bergman says because of the normal ebbs and flows of the fashion industry. It was time for a change. It wasn't like the supermodel went away. It was different supermodel. It was like the giselle 's tires of the role the heidi coons was. Victoria's secret like that. Brazil thing like that was sort of just took over in the late nineties to the early two thousand. There was also a big shift happening in hollywood in previous generations. Movie star shied away from endorsing products or dressing up and designer clothes but a new generation of actors had no problem with it soon. Revlon signed halle berry. Salma hayek and curiouser was featured in ads for saks fifth avenue. The final blow came in one thousand nine hundred ninety eight when the all important. September issue of vogue magazine featured actor renee zellweger on its cover. She was the first non model to appear on the front of the magazine and for many. It signaled the end of the supermodel era. here's writer. rachel. Burchfield tiny goodman of vogue. Said why why not put these movie stars on the cover because then you get people that were going to read about fashioned anyway right in the end these models might be on the inside of the magazine. But now you've also hooked people that are interested in this celebrity. Like shearson dunster. Julia roberts sir stanford bullock or meg ryan or someone like that in so you know. Ask started to become more than norm on magazine covers by the end of the nineties. Most of the original supermodels had already moved on. Linda had retired. Christie went to college and cindy retreated to malibu with her second husband randy gerber claudia traded in the high profile american magician. David copperfield for the low key. English film director. Matthew vaughn whom she married in two thousand two and they all became mothers in the twenty years since then. Many new models have come and gone following in the path laid out by the women of the nineties. They pave the way for the multi-purpose model. Who doesn't just walk in fashion shows but until recently few have become household names. Now with kendall jenner the hadeed sisters and even kaya gerber cindy crawford's daughter. It feels like a slight return to the era of the supermodel. Just slightly though. That's because none of today's models have managed to capture the public imagination. Like the ninety s. supermodel writer. Rachel burchfield lames it on social media. She says models today are just too accessible to have the same impact. I mean especially kendall jenner. My gosh i feel like i know everything about her life since she was ten years old because of keeping up with the kardashians There's there's a point where there is that air of mystery that is so compelling and that is why we were so compelled by these women's that we don't have anymore we know all about. Gd bella and kendall even kaya and that's fine but it they'll there will never be another ninety supermodel that is not as a class zone. The jenner's and the hades of today may not have the same impact for name recognition as the supermodels of the nineties. But today's runway queens have something else to hang their hat on big big salaries according to forbes. Kendall jenner was the top earning model in two thousand eighteen. Earning twenty two and a half million dollars in twelve months. Linda evangelisches comment that. She doesn't get out of bed for less than ten thousand dollars. Seems almost quaint. Doesn't it as for the nineties. They walked the runway together again in two thousand eighteen in a bold trivia to gianni versace on the twentieth anniversary of his death for the finale of the runway show his sister donatella gathered. The original super is once again. For that show. Cindy was flanked by naomi campbell. Elena christianson carla bruni and claudia schiffer as they closed the show marching down the catwalk in milan to the tune of george michael's freedom ninety just like they did almost thirty years earlier missing that night but not forgotten. Where linda evangelista tatiana petites and christy turlington. The other three fifths of michael's original supermodel filled music video. Thanks for listening to this. Look back at nineties supermodels. It's great to be back after a summer break and we have lots of great shows planned for you this fall so please make sure to subscribe to history of the nineties so you never miss an episode thanks to my to special guests rachel burchfield and brandy bergman in addition to writing about fashion rachel also hosts a cool podcast about the british royal family called podcast royal an randy also has a great podcast and website called capsule ninety eight. If you haven't already make sure you check it out. I'll put links to both podcast in the show notes. If you've got an idea for an episode please let me know. You can reach me through twitter and facebook at nineteen ninety history and on instagram at that ninety s podcast. You can also email me anytime at nineties at curious cast dot ca. That's nine zero s at curious. Cast dot ca. This episode was written and hosted by me. Kathy zora our producer is deal of alaska's and sound design and final production is by rob. Johnston see you next time for more history of the ninety s.

Cindy crawford lindbergh evangelista calvin klein naomi campbell rachel burchfield linda evangelista Lindbergh peter lindbergh crawford pepsi christy turlington Michael Evangelista naomi tatiana petites nickerson cindy brooke shields
Jameela Jamil | On Adversity, Celebrity and Activism [BEST OF]

Good Life Project

1:00:44 hr | 3 weeks ago

Jameela Jamil | On Adversity, Celebrity and Activism [BEST OF]

"My guest today. Jamila mill was a household name in the uk for years hosting shows on t. four bc one before launching into the spotlight in the us plane to hani on the acclaimed tv. Show the good place and then hosting. Tbs late night game show. The misery index judging reality competition show legendary an along the way she has been incredibly intentional about leveraging her notoriety for social good launching the advocacy platform. I way and the podcast of the same name. And she's on quest really bring together an amplify the voices of change makers and promote equity and dignity and for her. It's also personal. Growing up the daughter of indian and pakistani parents. She was often bullied and experience. May tougher after being diagnosed with a condition that affects her body's connective tissue and often causes chronic pain and through her teens she endured even more trauma became anorexic and then at a car accident that caused a spinal injury that would profoundly change her relationship with her body and finding her way eventually into the world of tv and radio in the uk. She headed to the us at first to right but found herself in front of the camera performing on set with her childhood. Heroes on network tv but it was her decision to speak truth to power and become an advocate for equality inclusivity and self determination that has really become the center of who jamila is and how she shows up in the world a place she describes as being post. Shame so excited to share this best of conversation with you and before we dive into it. I also want to take a moment to share some super exciting news. So my new book sparked is now available for preorder. This is really the culmination of more than two decades of work getting to the heart of what makes us come alive in work and life. It'll help you understand. Maybe in a way that you never truly have been able to see or embrace those deeper drivers for work that fill with meaning and joy and excitement and purpose and probably equally important it reveals. What work empties. Your soul takes. the greatest. emotional toll requires the greatest recovery and equips. You don't understand on an entirely different level. How to better re imagine and reinvent this next season of work in life to chewy maybe for the first time ever come more fully alive and there are some super cool immediate bonuses when you reorder so go check out the link in our show notes to grab your copy of a sparked from your favorite bookseller today. Okay onto our conversation on jonathan fields and this is good life. Project project is supported by upstart. So if you're finding yourself carrying a credit card balance month after month or stuck paying high interest rates then check out upstart so upstart as the fast and easy way to pay off your debt with a personal loan whether you're paying off credit cards consolidating high interest debt or funding personal expenses. They can help you out getting you set up with one fixed monthly payment so you can quickly pay down your debt. It's all done online so it's really easy to get started. So give up store to try and join. The thousands of happy borrowers who made that final payment. find out. How upstart can help. Lower your monthly payments today when you go to upstart dot com slash. Good life that's upstart dot com slash. Good life don't forget to use our your out. Let him know that we sent you. Loan amounts will be determined based on your credit income and certain other information provided in your loan application who upstart dot com slash. Good life like project disappointed by flavio. So if you're an ecommerce founder entrepreneur marketer or growth hacker working around the clock to build your dream ecommerce business. You need an e commerce marketing platform that works as hard as you do. That means you need clavijo. So with clavijo you'll delay customers and drive revenue at the same time with personalized email and sms marketing campaigns. That you can design and send minutes plus building a marketing campaign drag and drop easy. You can get started with your first campaign in under an hour and easily build from there with clavier does best-performing templates to get started with a free trial of flavio visit. Flavio dot com slash. Listen that's k. L. a. v. i. y. o. dot com slash. Listen originally came up in london. That would have been what. You're probably like Late eighties and nineties is when of like you really were coming of age there. Yeah i spent it off time. In pakistan and spain in my most formative early is and then we kind of settled in london fully fully. After i was about probably eight years old so i was all over the place back and forth. We basically went wherever the pound was strongest. God it's not not military though. Is it like a business type of thing for for two years or parents or something or no no naturally just getting out any money so we would go wherever the pound was strongest and so sometimes it really depended on the the economy of different countries. And that's why we would live especially at relatives that we end up ways because we can pay so for the first couple of years. I moved around a lot and then somewhere between about six and i already kind of settled back into england and going to school here and i grew up in so all over london really again depended on rent dependent on when bailiffs through our houses yet. Did you have a sense that i mean. Even when you're a little kid did you have that sense of. That's really what was going on or is it only in hindsight. No i definitely news very Very close knit family. And you know. I think especially when you're in a single parent household. There isn't much space fuel mother to lie to you about what's going on or who the man at the door who taken the television and so you know i think i had a very possible understanding about economic situation very young. But you know. I wasn't starving or anything wasn't completely homeless. I lived in a time in england where we really took care of those who would disadvantage compared to now we used to and it wasn't a stigmatized if there was a single mother who looking off to two kids who couldn't manage to work fulltime as well as the cough to those two children than we would help find housing and we would help her have an income that was possible for her family to live off and so i feel incredibly fortunate. We will cease to help kids with school fees so i was able to assisted places as what we used to call them which is similar to scholarship a disadvantaged children. You know so. I had a sense of it but i also felt very taken care of by my government in a way that i don't think it'll children can relate to nowadays. It was the celtics the lost of the radio. Good side of i guess it was. They were the last really good days for those of us to already taking a beating from life. Yeah and i mean. I know Kit there was a lot to take care of. I mean there was a lot going on and also it sounds like from the earliest days you've dealt with struggles with everything from hearing loss to health issues alerts and lows when you were a kid also Sutin know that there was someone or something or some safety. Net was in some way shape or form going to help you be. Okay really. don't know how americans without a national health service to. I think that's one of the number one things i feel so grateful in my child is is free. Doctors nurses growing up as a chronically sick child with those older mentally ill people in my family. We'd all be dead without the national health service. There was no way we would have been able to afford insurance or copay is in all these different things. I believe the the state of the healthcare in this country. And i i love america but so many of the homeless people that you see these these people who just all drug addicts Fuck ups these are people who often got sick or a family member goes second. They were crushed by that that medical bills. And that's what led them to lose the house and therefore their job end and everything else and so the national health service is how i survived an and i really rarely done what i would have done without them again. It was a bad time. And also you know. I had a as a child so we would make. We would give parents extra support if you had a child with a disability. This is something that's again being rolled back in britain. Right now yeah. I'm curious did you. I mean obviously as you as you got older and you know especially in the recent Probably the last decade or so really strong sense of service to bigger society especially to those who are in some way disenfranchise or. Don't have a sense of power. Do you feel like that early experience with you in any way planted the seeds for this sort of like orientated. With you yeah. of course. i definitely don't do this for fun. It's not fun Putting myself in the firing line with society. Meteors is not a decision that one takes lightly. It doesn't make your existence. Glamorous it doesn't make you sleep better. You don't unwell money you definitely earn significantly less money. over zoom so a fine and living in privilege but this is a. It's the only reason to be this. Relentlessly annoying publicly is because i grew up knowing what it was like to be on the other side of this and to be a victim of the pitfalls society and our narratives. That's why now the. I have a position of power which i was told. I would never ever reach because i was born into. I feel such a strong sense. If dt to to allow people to a cool to arms to identify the poison in our culture and push back against it that makes sense. Yeah no it absolutely does What's interesting also is of the things that you struggled with or lived with as as a young kid. One of them was a certain amount of congenital hearing loss if correctly so which i guess to a certain extent remains to this day. Yeah a friend of mine. He may know also. She's lived out there Jennifer passed off. I've had yet. She began to lose your hearing and she found that it made her hyper attentive to those around her because she had to really. She was lip she. She didn't study to relive she. Just learn that's the way that she needed and she needs to pay intense attention and it created almost this zone of connection with people around her that she felt while hearing loss. is something that didn't which warns he struggled with that. Capacity to be hyper present with people has been something that she really treasure. Yeah i think it made it kind of came in two different forms of me. I became hyper observant. Because you have to learn how to reach people for than just that words which can be incredibly valuable later on especially if you find yourself in a snake bit like this industry that i'm in a very rarely people's was match their intentions. You can actually read someone like an mri almost but also it made me quite sterry person so a staff lonsdale and that makes me seem creepy. Come freaks people out. It's a it's been hit. And miss. But i definitely wouldn't go back and change the time because of how it shaped me and how much it made me extra appreciative of music. And how comfortable it made me in silence. And how. Much more thoughtful. I think it made me. Because i still miss that. A lot of children that have access to because of the chaos of pt Getting older so i very tranquil. I grew up in a chaotic household. An ida very turn coexistence within the because any so much chaos. You can access when he caught here. I know when you hit your eighteen seventeen or something like that The i guess up until then also at some point Social anxiety anorexia becomes a part of your existence well-served layering on top of everything else. That you your served dealing with cool being a gun in the nineties. I don't know if any of us escaped without anxiety in some sort of eating disorder. Behavior mine was daphne extreme but not really more so than the other girls in my school. Everyone had a problem with eddie image though Next to go go to bring in a weighing scale every day and she would stand on it while eating lunch to see if not the dial will go up and that would stop her from overindulging. So you know i yes. I definitely struggled severely with anorexia but also really not in any way that stood out. I wasn't much thinner than the other. Gaza we all trying to have jutting hipbones in jutting rips because we were told that that was what was the only standard of beauty and the only standard of worthiness a woman was to to be a small and childlike in your frame as possible. Yeah i mean and also we're talking about the the. I guess late nineties here so that was the time in fashion. Were quote heroin. She comes from right which is out on reflecting on that. How does that become the standard. So s.'s like those and it was also a time while we were learning for the first time truly very publicly mainstream media about actual famine. That was going on in the world countries. So the idea that over in the west where we had access to abundant that we were trying to emulate the look of famine that was genuinely currently happening to tens of millions of people around the world. Is so mortifying when you think about it that it's hard to swallow. Yeah it's strange. The way that people can be influenced So powerful that. I mean which kind of fascinating about about what you're sharing to is at so Rigging bounce around a little bit towards last year you end up on the cover. British vogue with extensively. Sixteen women ashley fifteen women and that a little slot which is for mirror so the person looking at it feels that they have a space there to the photographer. That was chosen for that. Peter lindbergh whose legendary in the space and also legendary in an interesting way in that he always he was somebody who actually hated makeup on women. He absolutely hit. You wanted nothing to do with airbrushing back in the day or photoshop now and yet in the nineties he was also one of the people who was sorta like photographing a lot of the people who sort of set the standard for what was to be the pinnacle of beauty. Then i think so is everyone. He would have been in his twenties and that that will sanders. I mean twinkie. In a david bailey discovered twiggy. So we will have a slight bend. Pick a I think she's be to none of have felt but the well rounded her aesthetic as the only singular beauty standard. But i think young photographers back. Then we'll we'll just graphing what was in front of them and that was emaciated goals and what liked about working with peter is again. He wouldn't let me wearing makeup. Wouldn't brush it seven. Am because i jet lag at four am in my time. And i felt like i had testicles really underneath my eyes on he loved that and he was like great was bring out spring out those testicles and shot me in eight day brushing covering evoke nobody of And i loved it already liberating. And he got me to wear pajamas rather than anything kind of structured and fancy. And i will always remember him and his work fondly but yeah i mean. He was definitely part of Every at everyone in that time was complicit in a culture that they thought was acceptable and they thought it was beautiful. I mean we wouldn't. It becomes normalized on that level. It's just sort of like this is the way it's supposed to be across everybody and can imagine what it would take to really just stand out and say and say no effectively. You would have to be willing to walk away from your career. Which is which we now see a lot of people doing in on a different level or not. I didn't have a career because i was not a successful teen model. I didn't make it as a teenager. I started and i went costings and everything. But i was also trying to juggle school at the same time and south asian and there would just no south asian models at the time so it was definitely difficult to break through in that moment and then i got hit by a car pulled out the modeling industry. Thank god otherwise. I'd probably be dead now but On very very very very happy. That i was not successful during that time because like considering how badly. I've already messed up from my hooligans from eating disorder behavior during that time a Imagine what would have happened. If i was also smoking taking cocaine and and maintaining mac asian for as long as it would take to be successful modeling career. Yeah i knew you described the The car accident in in a weird way. Almost a blessing Something that ended up to a spinal cord injury and and pretty much took you out of being involved in people outside of your your home for better part of a year. maybe longer i was bed bound benches. It wasn't that bad. I had a really strong painkillers and cable tv so while i would never undermine the experiences someone else damaging that i actually found that to be quite a good year i had a morphine drip Of living my best life eating ice cream off my face watching frazier. So i have. I've terribly pull memories of that time by very vivid memories of that time. Because i used to watch television day and night because i didn't really happening friends In my family. Were not in social moment so i was alone most as all day every day pretty much other than when i would need to go to the toilet and so i would watch television compulsively and i think a lot of learned came from. Tv's for better or worse. Island tattoo identify mental illness. Watching oprah and island comedy from friends and frazier and Sista sista. And i learned i guess. Probably have to host just via osmosis. Because i went. I stumbled into the entertainment. Industry will was just sort of instinctively known what to do and how to carry myself without any Any kind of media training any kind of acting school anything like that. I have just always had an instinct for how to perform on camera which must come from just compulsive addictive television watching. I just knew what to do to bit like the king of comedy rupa puck project is supported by ever lane seven thinking about how i love to go on adventures. But i think what's really underrated is creating these sort of everyday micro adventures and that is wherever laying can really come in whether you're exploring new world in the pages of a booker venturing out on a gentle trail in the local park with a friend ever has these premium essentials outfit you in comfort. I've been a huge fan of ever lane for years now there. This really cool company that makes stylish quality clothing with total transparency about their production process and costs. I pretty much live in their jeans and t-shirts though the perfect blend of comfort and conscience and right now. They've got everything you need to upgrade. Not just the look as we wrap up summer but also the way that you feel in your clothes ever got the timeless classics. You need to look and feel great while doing it. Go do ever lane dot com slash. Good life and sign up for ten percent off your first order plus free shipping and get easy returns within thirty days of your ship date. That's ten percent off your first order when you go to ever lane dot com slash. Good life or just click the link in the show notes and sign up presents the new original series nine perfect strangers based on the new york times bestseller. Nine perfect strangers takes place at tranquillo as the healing begins. The guests began to doubt the retreat unconventional methods including a mega dose of reality through the controversial world of microdosing secretly administered via the guests. Daily smoothies nicole. Kidman stars was masha. That enigmatic leader of the resort and melissa mccarthy co-stars francis a dominant her luck novelists in need of some rejuvenation. Watch nine perfect strangers. Now on hulu with new episodes every wednesday. So you go from there to I guess you taught english for a year or something about two. And then you land you end up replacing alexa chung on t four. No experience. Basically walking and saying okay. I'm i'm here. I mean interesting in that you just shared. It wasn't like you something you trained to do. You didn't aspire to be in entertainment from the time you're a kid yet. Felt oddly comfortable. It sounds like from the earliest time. Also i felt the entertainment industry was really vacuous. And because of how. I'd seen how much it damaged my own self esteem. And how we raise. South asians just people of color. In general i never had an interest in the entertainment industry like beyond my teens. And so i really didn't expect it but then i found out that the payment was thousand pounds a day and that teacher makes it a month and i went to the open cool and somehow just delivered in addition i was up against the entire country but i a i think had the confidence to someone who thinks this is such a long show. I'll never make it so. I might as well just relax and enjoy it which ultimately always helps perform better at the same thing happened with the place vision but i just i don't know why but i just knew exactly what to do and that must have just been from subliminally studying television during my car. Accident is Shit faced it somehow. Bypassed all of this just went straight into muscle memory See started in front of a screen not long after that. You end up At bbc one hosting a show. Which from what i know and you can tell his right or not So the official chart was never hosted by long before it was you know been on after sixty years and they'd never let women take the ranks very authoritative shows. The bill booed wonder in. You are the you are. There is the authority to hand the number one over the over to the autism. Some reason it was just never given to a woman and was very lucky to be made that first woman and so i got to make history at twenty six which was very unexpected and a lot of pressure but An experience. I enjoyed very much. Took a minute to find my feet because again similarly to tv. I hadn't trained. I haven't done student. Radio hadn't gone to school associated sixteen so thrown right in the dependent figure out swim. The took a minute but eventually went really well in the ratings. Good and i will always Defining moment mike career because it was the first time in my four on television at that time where it wasn't about how i looked at it wasn't about my skirts my fashion and my legs. I was totally decentralized. And i was able to learn how to entertain people just with my mind just with my voice and it's a difficult job. You have to drive the desk. So you have the whole of the bbc at your fingertips and do you all controlling every single sound. That people can here at the same time as telling his story while timer is counting down. And you have to puff Timer new live. So there's no arafah any mistakes and it turned you into a less of conscious and a better host a maybe person cause you become less contrived as an individual. Yeah i mean it's interesting because you're so you're than a career where it is one hundred percent about your voice and a hundred percent about Your ability to relate to people with nothing but the sound of your voice coming straight into their ears you no not at all but i mean the difference between what what i do. What you were doing was the real time nature of it which is profoundly different. You know we're sitting here. I'm in my studio new york. Urine your place in la and we're making this happen and we can touch up anything that happens later. Somebody stumbles or fumbles wants to refrain. They can but when. You're on the mike and you're live and you know potentially millions of people are listening to you and you know the it's really fascinating training in being just absolutely present in the moment and having to like it forces you to let go of whatever you thought. You should have or shouldn't have said three ago because you can't stay there you have to be like whatever the second is right then. I think you can do anything off to done anything with entertainment. You can't go and do brain sadr child but you can. You can do anything within. This industry wants to found. Live radio where you are the controller as well as the host it's terrifying. It is terrifying. But it's exhilarating. You can't sleep and to look for. Am because you'll still buzzing every single we can have a whereas off because it's a huge risk. Entire reputation is on the line every time the red light that says on air comes on an on. My tv host was mostly live as well by the way at twenty two jumped into the industry. They put me straight on. Live television by myself. Like five am so. I've only ever really know live until now which is why acting felt ready. Fucking strange to me. All the ticks and this adds the god so it was almost too much room for era. I think i made more mistakes. Because i had too much room for mistakes. That's interesting it's almost like you had the luxury you know that you can. Yeah so you do. And humans have capacity to other think it's one of our most of stifling habits dominant trait for most people. I think Run the same time. You're also writing for company magazine Was writing something that was following you from an earlier time or was it early early emerging interest or just something that you have in a fall into again fell into. I've got the most charmless career trajectory that has ever happened. And i didn't even shock anyone to get. Why have i didn't even do that. Work you know what i mean. I didn't even know hun jobs whatsoever. I was interested. Actually i think i would have been the only person to ever fucked that way down industry. 'cause no it's not my greatest skill aside but i just i have somehow maybe it's the universe is way for making up for what shitty start i had but i've somehow just been at the right place at the right time consistently for over a decade in a way that mesmerizes may. I'm baffled by it. But because i had this big shiny new job and because i was being noticed from my fashion sense at twenty two twenty three as is often the case with a young new emerging iskoe was. I was asked if i would write a fashion column and after writing my first two. I realized i didn't really care about fashion at that time. It didn't know what i was talking about. I'd never had money until now. So i'd never grown up with like a pedigree in understanding fashion. I just thought it was amazed coveted. So he doesn't get arrested. So i asked them if i could stop branching out into something outside of that i would actually find interesting and i found social commentary to be my strength so i stay. They allowed me after reading my samples and it turned within a couple of weeks. A couple of months from fashion bloke into just a by hall take on our society and it grew over the course of eight years and became a real love of mine but i found that purely by accident. Yeah i mean at this. So you're you're developing of voice. A place to the bbc's is satisfying one particular need for expression tv before that was satisfying different need writing with satisfying a different kind of all blended together to create different outlets for different parts of yourself and you're also gaining a tremendous amount of exposure across the uk. Then you become very noticeable. I'm even though you're primarily on the bbc. You're still very forward facing and very visually identifiable there. And i know you have shared new and you've written about Some around the age of twenty six. Which i guess was right around then you also started to really struggle described it as having a breakdown and a suicide attempt what came together in that sort of like season for you. That led you to that place. I think a lot of people find as they start to reach thirty that old trauma that they've buried starts to surface. Whether or not you like it. I don't know if that's because that's when we really become adults and that's when we really starting to shake guide to become i think it's a ridiculous fallacy. The idea that we are adult from eighteen onwards. No one has shaped a eighteen or twenty or twenty-five even i really think attorney as you start to approach authorities. Start to understand who you are. What your place in the world based on what you plan to do going onwards so all of my old shape. That ida was buried under jokes and performance sosa playfulness. Sunday couldn't hide from anymore and so the combination of that. I'm being way too famous for someone who so introverted. And someone who is not built for fame. because i'm an unfiltered and unusual women. I think having paparazzi outside my house will day every day photographing me. Speculating over my white speculating of my love. Life speculating of my existence. Stalking me on every single wolf guy with go to having these bizarre narratives constructed around who i am and what. I stand fooled by the media. It will just sort of melted me down the combination of actual mental illness. That i've been running from my anti life and the media giving me no the media but society giving me nice spice to grow because once you're in the public eye become held kind of accountable as if you awesome sorts of pathak termination saint and so i just cracked. I guess at twenty six and a had a full-on explosive nervous breakdown. That no one else publicly. Because i didn't leave my house other than to run into a cab and go do my radio show and come back but my whole life at apart. And it's you know. I also wasn't very well physically at the time and i have i listen. Listen during which very painful and relentless condition that you're born with any degenerates with age and so when you wake up pain every single day and you go to bed every night and pain and none of your organs work properly because it affects every single sat in your body and you'll swollen all the time At really unpredictable inconvenient moments for job that is very much so forward-facing and where you're in the spotlight and being scrutinized of how you look you just sometimes kant take it anymore and so i gave up but thankfully i fail and suicide was not something. I turned out to have a talent for. It attempted it twice in my life and and not been successful by times. And so. I decided that. If i'm going to carry on in this world then i'm going to have to address everything that has led me to the point of collapse and go through it meticulously and study mitro an understand my patten's and map my way out of what was essentially insanity loss kind of eight years of my life has been just a an experiment where i've used myself a crash test dummy to try anything other than hard drugs and anal. That will help me figure out. Who at lamb. When i'm not trying to be his side he wants to be the a hyper rebellious behavior in the last couple of years down it. It's interesting that frame because it's almost like a lot of what is happening. Publicly is the outward expression of your own in her quest to figure out. Who exactly am i. If not defined by the the expectations and the frames of everybody who just outside of me and the patriarchy you know who. Who am i really if you think about how early we stopped being conditioned it would have been the first time i turned on television or disney princess obvious being in my own family and my lineage and where the place that i come from means that you know we have a very specific. Coding for women's behavious so often soaked in conditioning. From as early as i could understand. And so how will women in particular Those of us who are very controlled. How will we ever supposed to work out. Who we really are when we're so busy being bombarded with who is supposed to be and i guess that's what happened to twenty six. Was that sort of lightbulb. Moment of. I have no idea who i am. I'm lost and that's why i feel so able to dispose of my life. Because i don't care about this life because i don't know this person so i can easily execute them because they don't mean anything to me because how can anyone who you don't know really mean something to you trudy. Does that make sense. Yeah no admits obsolete sense And at the same time at one gloss over the fact that you shared that With you there is. There's chronic pain. I mean it affects different people in different ways If it shows up for you and your life as as pain that's always there As dysfunction where you never quite know. What's you know how things are going to be on any given day you waking up and then functioning in a very public way means masking that which means at some point when whenever we repress something like that whether it's emotional physical pain it comes out you know some way shape or form oftentimes by illness oftentimes through at some point it needs to find a way out So it's sort of like if you're covering it if you're sort of like keeping it at bay on an everyday basis at some point it's really gonna it. It's going to show up whether it's that or whether it's just all the other things that pile in to create what was it. Put me in the interesting trap. Because in this industry you have signed insurance forms when you walk so you cover up Health problems No matter what you're doing you're wearing the heels even your ankles on the verge of delegating something and the swollen in hurting in your feet. Swelling you people with donald syndrome. Don't do very well in in very cold conditions especially joint sir or affected but you wear the mini scott in the freezing cold. You wear all the makeup. You look like the picture of healthy present as the picture of health because otherwise you're going to work as a industry in all societies fundamentally ablest so that means that later when you come out and finally open up about all these things that you've struggled with because you looked fine all along and presented as very able bodied people doubt your story and they doubt your integrity because also we don't understand the concept of invisible disability an invisible illness and chronic illnesses that if you cannot see someone like literally seven office. Essentially the new. Don't believe what is wrong with them. We have a similar attitude towards mental health. If somebody looks fine we presume they all find ever look. We've never been told to look beneath the surface so yeah that was a it was a. It's been an interesting journey for me with my health. It's almost like you know you work so hard to project an image of strength and when you finally say you know what i just this needs to come out. That actually works against you in this really bizarre way. Yeah i've just been accused of having munchhausen's let publicly on mass. So which is so hilarious ridiculous and the person who did it is just some sort of washed up journalists not a dog so not one of my dogs is a commonly if i had to defend that my boyfriend who cares for me to defend mine integrity to the public based on someone's random accusation but i guess that it highlighted an inherent ebola zoom in our society up very interesting to see how quickly people jumped on that. I think there's also some inherent like misogyny in that where it's like. A woman must be hysterical. Must be lying. Must be dishonest punitive but it it. It's very strange to be sick. And in pain for large portion of your life and then to be so globally goslett over it off the surviving so long against your will not wanting to survive both times. I've tried to commit suicide a massively. Due to of course mental illness brousseau just an inability to cope with being chronically sick. So that was very strange when that happened recently. I can't even imagine You i guess in two thousand sixteen which was as you're sort of emerging from that particular window. You have a cancer scare that knock on wood ends up being okay and yet required some surgery and part of the promise you made yourself. Is that if this comes out. Okay you're basically on a plane away from london to the us where you land in la. Yeah i'm so grateful that. I was fine so grateful to be okay. 'cause i have a lot of a lot of cancer my family and so and lost a lot of women in my family to counter and so i was so so scared that i've been wasting my life and as much as it wouldn't seem like Flipping this incredibly glamorous existence on television and getting to meet the tom hanks different people. I wasn't happy. I didn't feel fulfilled and i was very pigeonholed back in england. My love england for so many reasons. And i thank the Television industry radio industry forever. Having given me the lessons on the opportunities that i had but as a woman ua certainly stereotyped moso in england than i would say in america. You know you're not likely to have much of a career off fatty traditionally and you have to maintain a very useful very thin apparent. Tv of the new only being tv present never got into acting accommodating. And you should be quieted. Stay in your lane and not be an ever push back against the very controlling patriarchal partic- media and so you know i. I was books in and finding out that i could have lost. My life really gave me this much. Needed boost to be like okay. I'm fine so now in case the next time this happens i'm not fine. I'm gonna go in and grab life by both of its bulls and just see what happens having adventure. You give myself something to look back on on my desperate. So you end up in la But not to be in front of a screen which is why so many people end up going to la. But i to be on the other side of it like you show up. La too right and that becomes the focus for awhile and and yet not too far into your stinted la you do end up on the other side of the screen and once again just as we share it you know. It's sort of like showed up on and then showed up at the bbc without having an experience you effectively. Legend has the story behind the auditioned for The good place is ceo. It's almost the same type of thing. Never acted before given this opportunity for show with people who you're watching that year when you're seventeen these really some of the most iconic people on tv who had been there for generation or two to say. Hey can i step on set and play a major role in the show. I really i begged mike cher to reconsider when he gave me the row so i told him i didn't know i was doing and he just decided for me that. I didn't think he'd been similar with aubrey plaza. Where she wasn't necessarily an aspiring actor when he found her. But mike knows what he wants in a way that i find so admirable and he doesn't really listen to anyone else. He's a Rebel is industry. And so you know. He costs four on nuns into ensemble comedy and created a show. Unlike anything we've ever seen it was so high concept and yet it was made for mainstream network and he told an entire generation. So much with a spoonful of sugar. It was all these lessons about morality and philosophy of wrapped and dick and fought jokes. I think was just. I can't believe. I got bit part of an eye. It's similarly to my first. Mvp addition. just there's no there's no fucking way mike. Sure it's gonna give me pop miss. I've been forced to be by manages. Who basically just don't have very many south asians to send to this. Audition is four and overly toll. South asian english who. Who's a bit of an asshole. Chris basically as me and And so you know. I've been pushed. Edition was a little bit curious. About what the experience would be light. Thought it would make for funny column. Still writer of salah columnists for england. So tell them about how fucked definition front of misha then by complete accident got it and now i can say i've spent four years studying ted danson face-to-face and beyond being on set with that crew a couple of friends of surly been around and that space that the reputation the word about that set about that crew was. It was unusually kind. There was a lot of dignity onset. I'm curious whether that was your experience. Yes it was just an incredible place work and it was very very surreal to be honest. Set like that. Where you fifty. Fifty manifield directors Writers and you had all these different different people from different backgrounds. It felt like a very multicultural space. Where you felt like you could see yourself when you would look out into the crew and people who would like you and yet while i was doing it was twenty six. I think we began the me. Two times up. Movement was starting to emerge kickoff. And so i was reading these horror stories about hollywood. And these pervasive and insidious disgusting environments that women in particular having to navigate just to survive in this industry yet hero was with this comparative same man who really pushed for the women to feel empowered and an intellectually stimulated by the characters and he wrote nuanced complex interesting roles for minorities nevis entity Minority as our entire storyline. He broke every single rule and was kind and supportive and paid us all equally. And i couldn't relate to anything i was reading. I felt so grateful. Did just fundamentally changed my life. It changed my life in every single way. It gave me faith in myself. Gave me faith in. This industry gave me faith that were good allies out there like mike and i was given this platform from that show on top of being participating that i really believed in it then allowed me to have the platform to start a movement that represented believed in right to the fiber of my and so it was the best thing that ever happened to me. I probably say that show in everyone. Tell me about the movement side of things. Because so you're heading into sort of i guess is probably the last season of the good place. Two thousand eighteen issue starting instagram account. I way which extensively. It's funny. Because i've heard it described in the passes body positively. But it's really not that an never was but it feels like i'm curious because it feels like it has grown and expanded in the mission behind it has grown and expanded substantially even just in the short amount of time that it's been there and it's no longer just an instagram account. This is true movement. Yeah well look. It has the reputation of being a body positive movement because the the media will prime to if they're going to have this conversation to having it with a slender conventionally attractive woman so that they can have the compensation Her on the covers where she can fit into the kacha clothing on sample sizes. And so it's just a very convenient way. I'm so thrilled. They had the conversation with me. And this compensation was able to become mainstream. Because of that and i love that they were willing to go there and have real conversations with men not just reduce me down to conversations about my hat a my love life but it was very tricky because i was there full not intending to but was taking up space in the body positive movement which people to understand body positively as associate political movement that is for women who decides whether they are discriminated against by employers by doctors and they experience consistent mass abuse of their size and discrimination on all fronts Especially also dating so the body positively movement is that to teach women how to love bodies that the weld actively hates and it is something that is for larger women's lender people have commercialism has co-opted the positive movement as something. That is the slender women who do yoga tabs. Who love their apps and say i'm hashtag positive and look i understand the they're completely malicious intentions behind that. But it's a raise this very important socio-political movement slender women don't need body positively but we definitely still have the right to say that we struggle with body image. I certainly do so. I practice putting neutrality. And that's kind of a lot of way is it's looking outside of your body is treating. Nobody is nothing other than a vessel that carries your mind and looking at who you on the inside so The reason the movement is gold. I way is that we way ourselves not on a weighing scale in numbers but we way also based on the sum of all of our parts. So i way my relationship my financial independence the lessons i've had to learn publicly The eating disorder become all these different things. I weigh my my activism everything. I weigh the sum of all of my mother fucking pots. And i'm tired of being reduced to nothing more than inches and pounds and kilos so it started a statement against how we are made bodies but very quickly it emerged into what was generally a compensation about acceptance representation and mental health. And that's where we are at today. We have a million followers on instagram. And we have changed global policy on instagram and facebook that protects people under the age of eighteen from diet detox products and cosmetic surgery procedures that are being sold to them that on regulated and being peddled by influences you have zero morals and we are also working on several bills in the united states to try to protect teenagers and end discrimination. So it's a it's a full thing. Yeah i mean it's also it's fascinating if you Of the instagram account which is really just you know. This is one small visual representation of what's going on behind the scenes. Also it's a platform not you know it's a platform to tell so many people's different stories and you see you know the the the images the and people saying like you. If you want to say that this is how you away me let me tell you. Let me tell you like that. How much vaster. The universe of things that comprise. The value i contributed to the world are at this moment and how much they will become over time and it's this really powerful visual depiction of people proclaiming publically reclaiming. Almost that replayed up their identity. Which is it's just incredibly powerful to no matter who you are. You just sit there and you start to move through and it's emotional. I think it really moves you. I think that you have to have a pretty cold. Heart to to sort of edison's say a change doesn't need to happen and be that that. Anybody should be boxed in by a set of societal identifiers. That that tell you what smart is. What stupid is beautiful is what not you know or how anyone should behave on the planet. I think it was just important russell to take back the ownership of you know we live in this incredibly narrow minded society where only thin is beautiful. Only young is beautiful only able body beautiful. Only light skinned is beautiful. Only good place. Skin is beautiful. I just within so the the vast majority of society has been excluded from what is deemed sightly acceptable. But just doesn't make sense is just bad business. It's bad business to choose this. I mean it was very clever business to choose this completely unattainable ideal and use it as a way to say the anything. Outside of this is unacceptable You must by all of these products to fix you yourself because you are broken. And so that's the marketing strategies existed for thirty or forty years. Now adults work. But i reject it and i think that people very smart they just haven't been woken up to the correct information. You just have to help them. Identify the evil and then they can make their own better decisions. We're not talked about this stuff in school. Talked about it by parents whenever wound whenever educated on proper media literacy to understand the actual messaging of advertising and so therefore as someone who does now understand that and who's in the middle in the belly of the based i have the radi rare position to be able to with authority from the inside by the whole thing wide open which is quite fun. Fun powerful. I mean where. It's an interesting moment as we're having this conversation for you right because good place winds down this kicking up a really good big way The world is going through some really big disruption and pain. When you think about the state that we're in right now and what role you wanna play Your contributions would have moving fowler. What's really calling you right now is it. Is it something different or something. Is that a piece of a bigger puzzle. No it's way as i way we know we've turned it into this giant movement. We have a lot of laws to change. Laws take a very long time. And also the compensation mental health to be able to de-stigmatising and demystify it from the unique position of someone who's come back from the absolute brink. I feel as though i i. I'm not an expert in anything other than my own survival and i can use those techniques. I've learned to perhaps inspire someone to find their own techniques. I'm not here trying to treat anyone. I'm not know one of those trains. Tv doctors a. But i i definitely feel as though i know i think i know what i'm doing now and it's taken a bit of growth and learning on space and time but this is where i want to be. I have so much to learn from our society. And i think they could learn a lot from all the stuff i know about. Will the lies with the media and and so. I just want to work with my community on that. And that's what the podcast is won't be youtube channel on a couple of weeks it's also going to be around the concept of social justice and social education about things to do with And you know if i if i continue to persist with entertainment than it just has to be roles that i think are actually furthering conversation of some so. I'm not. I don't wanna be famous. I don't wanna be sack symbol. Don't want to be glorified faith anything that i find empty. I want to make a difference. Not because i care about my legacy. So don't give a fuck which we can tell from my twitter being such a mess But i definitely care about undoing. Some of the pain. The i was coast. When i was young because of how toxic this industry is and how much i looked up to it and how much i thought it was real and i just want to recycle selfishly. I'd like to recycle my pain into something. Good it's kind of interesting also seeing you. You mentioned video channel coming soon. The podcast launched as we have this conversation like about a month or so ago. So you're now also interesting full circle moment right because you're back behind the might your back. Yes relate back in this different mode But instead of announcing an a totally different topic you're now having these very personal Conversations with people who either have big spotlights that you know and and big voices and experiences that they wanna share or or in a role where you can share your spotlight disarray. Shannon on the wreck of other people. Therese what it's been like freebie sort of to certain extent back in that space net mode. I'm much more comfortable asking a not speaking. I noticed about your lovely. I hate being interviewed. I i much prefer finding out about others. But you know i had to somewhat over expose myself and be attention seeking in order to get to this position of power when now i can pass the mic. And so that's what i was doing when i was hoovering up a fair amount of attention. It was because i was very deliberately on the path to where. I'm at now where i no longer have to speak and i can ask. And so it's been brilliant. And i love interviewing and i think because i'm such an open book kind of affords my guest. Whoever they are space to do the same and that created some unexpectedly. Very very frank. Conversations reese witherspoon ended up crying at the end of the plo cost episode On a about her frustrations about sexism and misogyny this industry and demi levada opened up to me about so many of mental health issues. Same thing with reporter is episode is about to add soon just phenomenal childhood story of pain and suffering and abuse drama and he has turned that into and how he's done that on for him to be so generous as to take me through step by step guide to wellness and happiness in sustainability. I'm just i'm really flawed. By how well it's gone so faw until very honored to be part of these conversations and and also the interviews tend to stitch people up especially in print media and so these and even in video interviews sometimes taken have context and heavily edited in a way that is deeply unflattering and provocative and on fat in order to frame them in a narrative that suits the media to create as much outrageous possible outrageous. What sells it used to be sex sex outright cells we hyperinflated the value by putting it absolutely everywhere. So it's no longer something that is considered valuable now is outrage. And so i'm really proud to have created this space lately for people who have something very important valuable say to be allowed to come and say in context with protection and with my best interests on looking stitch anyone up. I'm just looking to have the most helpful. Compensation which i think is something that journalists no longer carry on mass very few journalists dealer interested in the bigger more interesting and help compensation they just have to succumb to walk gets the most clicks and so because of that interviews have lost their that impact. I think in a lot of print media and a lot of people are afraid to call because they have no control over how the edited. And so i think because i'm on the same side as them now. People speak to me with much more trust than they used to. When i was just a janitor is now. I'm also an actor who's also being subjected to intense scrutiny and gas lighting. I think it feels like it. Just it's a very unique position. I may not have unique access to such extraordinary people. Scientists doctors as well as dr autism and so hopefully we will continue to in this moment where people most need to talk about the mental health because that locked inside with losing loved ones and are under so much stress than using that jobs. They have no idea. They're gonna families or if they're going to be homeless soon if we can provide any semblance of comfort and entertainment and a message of the fact that you are not alone and what you're struggling you mustn't feel shamed or going through. Then i will lift on my joke. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well so as we sit here in this Cross country container. Good life project. If i offer up the phrase to live a good life what comes up. A good life is truly just to be happy. I i've really learned that over the course of twenty nine devastatingly jay z but mental. Health is my priority now. That is the pasta a good life money fame. Not success is not designing things. I've had all of that now. I've had everything shiny and it led me to almost taking my own life because of how empty and west it really is and so comfortable comes privileged but generally all of this shit is just meaningless. And if i may sorry to be long winded. But i do think i want to make this point. That's one thing. I think will come at this. Pandemic is that people will no longer value the bullshit that we have. I lied up until now we have been taught to worship commercialism and worship consumerism and expensive hotels and diamonds and pointlessly expensive clothes and I don't think anyone is going to be able to afford that. But i think we have finally recognized that the people that we have celebrated nas society have been all of the wrong heroes. It's been a bunch of useless fucking celebrities who have proven to be so ultimately useless in this apart for maybe three of them and we are recognizing the heroes. Were the people that we ignored all along. And so i. I am only excited for that. One outcome of this global tried today. I'm hoping that we will restore a helpful and intelligent values an recognize what is good and and i hope that we will be able to make out of this moment alive and with respect for mental health. Because that's the strongest tool. You have in this moment anything you can possibly have control over somewhat if you're lucky and so for me. Mental health is to live a good life is to be happy and to be cuddled. Really unlike spooning thank you hey before you leave if you love this episode. You haven't already done so be short. Follow good life project in your favourite listening and if you appreciate the work we've been doing here at good life project. police also go check out. My new book sparked. I am so excited at this is coming out into the world at a moment where i feel like we need it more than ever. It will reveal some really incredibly eye opening things to you about your very favorite subject. You then show you how to tap these insights to re imagine and re invent work as a source of meaning and purpose and joy. You'll find a link in the show notes or you can also find it at your favorite bookseller. Now thanks so much. See you next time

clavijo flavio Jamila mill national health service england london Sutin bbc sterry anorexia British vogue Peter lindbergh united states uk frazier jonathan fields Island tattoo Sista sista jamila
FTP097: Sovereignty vs. Identity

Future Thinkers Podcast

51:57 min | 2 years ago

FTP097: Sovereignty vs. Identity

"Hey, and welcome to future thinkers dot org. Hot cast about the evolution of technology society and consciousness. I might you'll end in a you've even ova if you new to the show, and you wanna get a list of our favorite books, popular episodes, and to join our community, go to future thinkers dot org slash start. Oh feature thinkers episodes. Are now in video to watch the premiere of each episode and joined the discussion live subscribe to our YouTube channel at future thinkers that org slash YouTube. Gutter new course in personal. Evolution. Art, one is on cultivating, sovereignty, and is designed to support you in developing more clarity about your direction and purpose in life making better decisions, and having more agency to live your life on your own terms are partout is on integrating, the shadow and is designed to support you in overcoming nihilism and tapping into inner source of energy, creativity and wisdom to make meaningful progress towards actualising your full potential. To learn more, go to courses that future thinkers dot org. The guys welcome to I think we're on ninety seven right? Ninety seven. So we've got three more until we're at one hundred is taken us like five six years to get to one hundred episodes in Joe Rogan's on his like hundreds of his MMA in just a few months. If you noticed that. And he's on something like out. I think he's getting closer to two thousand dollars. That's insane. I don't know how you put out that much content. I'm like, brain dead after every single one of these. Okay. So we had, we've got our group call that happens every week and to the chorus if you're not familiar with all the stuff checkout episode ninety six because I think we'd explain a lot more about it a bit at the end Lia. So we wanted to expand on this idea of sovereignty, especially mental sovereignty. And we ended up talking about this quite a lot in the, the call today just happened to be the subject of the call. So where do you want to start with this? Well, one of the things that comes up is that sovereignty is not really something that people get taught in school. In fact, they get taught the opposite, which is why sometimes when you actually try to guide people to becoming more sovereign, they resist a lot because they've been conditioned to act completely opposite of sovereignty. So what this means is that people expect to have an authority figure that tells them what to do. They expect to kind of have a parental figure that supports them and tells them, you know, you did well or you didn't do well, and a lot of the time, they just externalize kind of their own decision, making wisdom insight any number of things even income, you know, when we think, oh, yeah, I have to have a job. I have a boss, like somebody that you're reporting to it's also kind of a modified parental figure in a way that provides resources for you, and all of society, structured inside. Such away that they're all these different situations that for your whole life, basically, expect you to give up your sovereignty. And so school, obviously is a proxy for the real world for the corporation so schools. Don't teach people how to be sovereign. They teach people how to follow instructions. Yeah. Factory worker, exactly. And so, when, you know, when the subject, the sovereignty does come up when people are already adults or supposed- adults, it's often very, very country to everything that they've been taught in a lot of the time. It's even unconscious they don't realize that they're doing it. But it's. I've noticed this. It's really a big, big difference in thinking when you start stop. Deferring authority to other people start realizing, okay? Actually, I am the highest authority in my life. Wow. What a difference. Nobody can tell you how to think nobody can tell you what to do. And it doesn't mean that you have to be a selfish asshole or that you never learn from other people you're never listened to other people's opinion, is just at the end of the day. You are the authority on you. Yet really is amazing how much the subject comes up about people needing teacher, or guru, or some sort of, like guidance hand holding through the process of either becoming an adulterer or waking up. This has been a subject. That's come up and definite came up quite a bit today in the call. So I think we've kind of glazed over a bit of the definition of sovereignty is a lot of people who haven't heard us before might be thinking, we're talking about, like, you know, being a sovereign individual in the context of the new, sovereign man movement, or they might be thinking this has some weird connection to being a sovereign state. So let's define what this actually is. Okay. So the sovereignty that we're talking about is in the same sense that Jordan green hall, talks about it, which is your capacity to be a conscious agent in the world, rather than be reactive, or a kind of differ thority to others. And so there are three elements to sovereignty in this framework in that's clear perception. So you actually see what is going on in the world without judgment. You're just able to observe it then perception than since may. Making which is your capacity to make sense of what is actually going on to understand it to be able to kind of take different perspectives or switch different frameworks and then finally agencies. So it's your capacity to do something about the situation or not do something to be able to control. Basically, your response that you're not automatically doing something a new one that came up for me in agency was the systems and mechanisms of having agency in our modern world. So to me agency. I mean as I've previously been thinking about it, it related a lot to what do I do about information? That comes in what do I do about things that I can or cannot have control over. But I think when we think about this in a more modern context, we can start to think about, like voting mechanisms participation, mechanisms group, organizational, mechanisms, so, like the decentralized, Thomas organizations, Dow's in the blockchain space. That's a really great example of how people. Are now inventing mechanisms of cooperation and consensus at scale, and this all has to do with agency. But let's step back a bit to the sense making thing because that I think is something people have a difficult time separating it from from perception for one, an ideological possession happens. Quite a bit of the sense making level because people latch on they feel they've been they've been red pilled woken, up to some new sort of system, or framework ideology, and that, that new ideology becomes their primary sense making mode. Right without realizing that, that's just one chunk. That's one perspective, when viewpoint at how you can look at the world and make sense of what you're perceiving, and we have all kinds of meta conversations about how we as a couple are interacting with each other on a sense making or perception level, we don't really talk about agency a whole lot. But like we do talk about how if we get into an argument how where the corruption of, of sovereignty took. A place. Are we perceiving each other? Right. Are we like ping testing each other that we understand each other from the the, you know, each other's perspective, and that all relates to the, the sense making aspect? So I think since making is probably the most difficult aspect to unpack here. Well, yeah. I would say, especially at the stage that our society is currently. Yes. There's probably the most corruption at the sense making level because people on average have quite a lot of agency these days. And as far as perception goes, well, there's actually, a lot of information out. There was too much overflow. They perceive too much, and they don't because they lack proper sense making their unable to decide on the filtering mechanisms that should be applied all the way back to perception. So what information should I take in which should I consciously be taking in which should I be ignoring? Yeah. Just, you know, it's a cyclical thing with agency in perception, but without a proper sense, making model that helps you decide what is the most important thing. They need to focus on, you end up just casting, a very wide net and taking in everything, which can be really unhealthy, especially since so much of our access to information is pre filtered echo. Chamber kind of messaging, right? Like other people have been bouncing ideas around in their singular, little mean, tribe, and not letting a bounce out to receive criticism or at least when it does receive criticism, they just put on blinders ignore it. And then that kind of gets filtered through to you have indicated to the Facebook algorithm that, that's the information you wanna get or YouTube or whatever, so you end up not getting a lot of like very depends from conflicting, Meam tribes, and that really fucks with your sense making. Yeah. And it's also that there's a breakdown of meaning in our society, sto- in the past, you could say that meaning was a lot more externally given by structures like a traditional gender roles by religion, huge cultural national identity. That sort of thing. So people always had some sort of meaning in their lives in, they didn't really have to do their own search for meaning in, if they did it was very rare. But now those traditional meaning structures are breaking down in a really major way at least in western countries. And so people are having this crisis where suddenly they don't have this external meaning structure in their completely lost. It is breaking down in the east to like you could see that when we were living in Thailand, or Vietnam, or any of those places in south East Asia. At least you could see especially in urban centers. A very westernized mode of being like it's like their base operating system. Like they're win. They're dos or windows, ninety five had Buddhism in eastern philosophy pre installed, but then that all got wiped clean with the western windows, ninety eight and, and on. Do you do you know what I mean? Like the, the standard operating procedure now seems to be a lot more western Centric, so it's like it's kind of a global phenomenon if you're of a younger generation western Centric, and also secular, which is problematic, because the secular operating system doesn't include very large chunks of human experience. That can't be the can be explained by secular thought expand on that. Okay. So, for example, can't remember where I saw this, but a very large percentage of the population have had some sort of mystical. Experience sexually extremely common in just seems to be part of being human it. It's not. What, you know, a glitch or a pathology like the secular system tries to portrayed as or just dismissable. Well, that would be the religious framework, but the secular framework would just dismiss it or say, some sort of a glitch in the brain. You know neurons. Miss misfiring good mixed up with secular, and what's the opposite of secular with the religious religious? Okay. Yeah. Yes. Secular. Just means, like atheist, nonreligious. Okay. So, yeah. Definitely, there's more of this sort of materialist mechanistic view of consciousness and the experiences of consciousness and not really taking into account mystical. I hit he'd been labeling it as mystical, but just sort of those standard like I call the person. I'm thinking about, and they called me at the same time, like everyone's got that experience that synchronised event these sort of like, non non local, apparently higher dimensional or non material happenings that everyone has experienced with coincidences that just are too. The chance of happening are too rare actually just be chance that it's extremely common and very meaningful a lot of the time to people, but within the secular meaning structure is dismissed, it's not explainable. It's not assigned any meaning so I find that the secular meaning structure, I mean, it, it was existent for a long time in a did provide some sort of a, a stable ground for people. But even now, now even that is breaking down. Yeah. So and people are, if people are in freefall, essentially, because there is there isn't a religious foundation. The secular foundations breaking down free throw wouldn't be so bad. It's more like they're grasping at any ideology, any structure that can to make sense of the world and they're actually they are successfully grabbing onto things in holding onto them. That's part of the problem. Right. Like we've always been advocating fall in what we've talked about with awakening in and personal growth in becoming an adult, it's like you have to be com- comfortable with ambiguity and feeling like you're falling in the void from only from that point, can you look out at the world in all the chaos and all the lack of sense and actually make sovereign high sense decisions, you know, but when you are latched onto a framework, which was people are doing it out of fear response, right from falling. They're just grasping at anything. They can you look like this is. Made a new connection, I yeah, I just had an insight because I was thinking you know, as people are falling they are grasping at meaning structures, but what are the meaning structures that they're grasping at, especially in western countries, they have to do with trauma in victimhood? So, and then I realized something because when you're kind of top level obstruc, meaning structures get destroyed. What is underneath all of that in the unconscious it's trauma? And like when you do your own investigation work. That's the order, that it happens, you deconstruct some top level kind of overarching, meaning framework, and then what emerges after that is all of your trauma, and people are grasping onto some sort of meaning structure. So that's the next thing down that they find in their consciousness in. So now that's emerging as the new Munich structure. And so there's all this approach obsession with people being oppressed or people being victims of something one thing. Or another because they're part of a specific group, or they have some sort of identity or shared, life experience, that other people have. And I just I just made that connection and blew my mind. Because. Yeah. Like, in my own investigation of my own mind. That's the order that it happened. To me. That's like, that's yeah. That may has made sense for a while the, the falling grasping at things like any meaning structure that, specifically the trauma in victimhood, meaning structure that emerges, lower down in the unconscious. So now from my perspective on this, it seems like the grasping is due to a fear of the free fall, right? Which is related to the fear of turning around and facing those things you're afraid to look at right? The, the unconscious sort of animal elements of us are or the trauma, as you've said. So fuck. So it's a fear of uncertainty as well in general fear in deeper down a fear of no self. If you're not of not having an identity at all. That's, that's a big jump. Let's unpack that a bit because the no self thing. I, I mean we talk about this, but we gotta make that connection. Sure, let's, let's go back a bit to the unpack the fear stuff. I okay. Fear of uncertainty like people are grasping for certain yet. So the uncertainty thing is something we've uncovered a lot in the development of the course. And now, the calls seem to be a recurring, not so much actually people seem to be getting past that a bit and understanding that the, the future is uncertain and being okay with that, both every once in a while when a new person comes on the call. It seems like this is like a recurring theme that the, the fears of the future and being being young person or having kids or or job prospects. Yeah. Or. Climate change. Yeah. All of that is due to uncertainty. And you know, when people ask us about our decision making in like, how can we be certain or how could we? How can we make decisions about our future and be confident that they're going to work out? And it's like, why would you make that decision? How can you how can you know that it's gonna work out in really the answer is always the same. It's we don't know in. We're doing it anyway. Like you don't know you can't have certainty in the only thing that the desire for certainty does is paralyzed you essentially it. I was thinking actually about this yesterday held a desire for certainty, especially in today's chaotic world can actually make you a slave in really impair you. Yeah. Because other people know this and can take advantage of it, right? Yeah. Yet, when people are confused, there's always some sort of leader, who is, you know, offer young strongman, who is happy to offer certainty at the cost of your sovereignty. Yeah, yeah. But I mean people keep looking for that, even you could tell them straight to their face everything. We've just discussed now and they're gonna keep insisting while I need I need guidance. I need hand holding I need something like someone needs to show me in and. Hold space for me. Really, this is something that I tried to get across in the call. It's not vital. It's not critical that you have that there are so many people who are isolated and count myself, among one of them having gone through like a period of darkness in isolation. And having to learn what we've taught recently and kind of come up the other side of nihilism appreciating the world understanding that things are in big US, and that's okay. There's nothing that I can do about that or should do about it, and I can keep living my life without that certainty. Like what I mean to say is you can you can find a light at the end of the tunnel and you can escape nihilism and you can be comfortable with that uncertainty and without the support network without the hand holding without a Shimon experience. Like, well, you can be your on Falun w thing I mean you can do psychedelics alone in a dark room, like Terrence McKenna's always talked about thank you can also do it without second. Alex, just if, if you're doing any kind of personal transformation work this actually was brought up on, on the coal by somebody else that the rights of passage in the initiations that young men specifically went through in tribal societies. We really don't have them in our society today. But that's exactly what they talk you, they talk you how to find your own center, how to transition from being reliant on the tribe to being self reliant how to become your own authority, how to find your own northstar your own center to being self guided essentially in this was absolutely necessary for men in tribal societies because then they would be able to have other people rely on them instead of relying on others. In a doesn't mean that you suddenly become this, like selfish person that doesn't need anyone. That's not the case at all. You just gain your sovereignty. And then you're you're able to be a rock for other people. You're able to hold space for others, when they're sick or you know, children or like pregnant women. Who are, you know who need protection? What I'm trying to understand is the desire for, for guidance in to be shown the way because this is something I struggled to relate to because of the entrepreneurship background that I have like, and I think I know entrepreneurs will relate to this, like, it's all about carving your own path. It's like you're the like I become the most unemployable person, I think, at this point because I've just so used to doing things the way, I want and, and dealing with the uncertainty of the big you ity of my decisions in the in whether or not things are gonna work out. I'm just like, yeah that's, that's the way my life has been. It's been that way for so long that I don't know anything else I don't know certainty. So what I think is probably a very healthy thing to start thinking about, is what sort of entrepreneurial direction. Can you take your life into three think even I think that the starting your own business is like, how can you become an entrepreneur, you're on mind, I suppose, but there's something about. Entrepreneurship where you are taking control of the material destiny of your life. Like, the, the little outcome of everything around you. The your success on a very material sense like that. You're in real danger. Yeah. If you fuck that up. So I mean, that's people are coming at this sort of spiritual work at a very material level. Right. Like there. There's a lot of VS most people what they're afraid of. It would be not having enough money. My safety in the near future. It's very like on maslow's hierarchy of needs is very like the bottom two rungs. Right. It's also like being ostracized not being respected. Not fulfilling. My destiny. Being alone. Yeah. But I still think the entrepreneurship element is really the, it's a really good training for the bottom system. It's training for probably all of them, but, you know, taking full responsibility for your own physical wellbeing and the well being. If you have a family, as well like to take that big risk, and there's so much mental training in, in resilience training that has to you have to go through in order to get through that. I agree with you. I think it's just a very hard pill to swallow for a lot of people, and it's not something that you can really prescribe because most of the time, it's just easier for people to have a job. It's because it is such a hard path full of failure and risk and uncertainty in, you know, it's not something that you can just do like if you wanna find a better job like maybe you look for a while, and then eventually find it in you switch, but it's it's not at all like that was enterpreneur. Like it could be years decades before you make it or before you're able to support yourself properly like you know, we hear about these success stories in the news, you know some entrepreneur being profiled in. We have the idea that it's just like overnight success, but it's not like that. So I think is definitely if, if people are able to take on entrepreneurship as a lifestyle than it will definitely be very valuable for them in other ways, because it literally retrained your brain it re- trains, you to be more sovereign in a bunch of different ways that you probably didn't even expect. And in the expansion in the, the fruits of that, those efforts afterwards are also related to your own cognitive sovereignty. And in the specially due to your agency, like it's hard to do the exploration work in the, the, the growth work that we're talking about when you're stuck in that nine to five, and that's like you're always month to month trying to make ends meet like it's really hard to escape from that sort of system. When you are dependent on someone else for your income. So I mean that's the only way I feel like most of my growth has been able to happen is through having control over my finances, and my time, especially time is our finances. Never been like amazing. But the time element to just have the freedom to step back and redo book or do some meditation to spin the biggest thing. So we had talked about. We unpacked the. The fear a little bit. And there was something else that you are gonna go into after this share will, I was talking about the fear of no self fear of not, not having an identity, and that's very deep fear that tends to surface when you're well, when your identity crumbles for whatever reason for some people, they might be heavily identified with their job or their role in a relationship. And when for whatever reason that ends, they have an identity crisis. They don't know who they are anymore. And in every every crisis is opportunity to grow. That's something that is been a recurring theme for me that the worst thing that happens to you is the biggest opportunity to bro. And it's the same with this, you know, because when people have an identity crisis, they started grasping for some other identity, you know, on falling on the way down. But just allowing yourself to fall and not having an identity just. It's actually there's huge freedom in that in just not being anyone. Even just for a few moments just, you know, sitting in meditation, not having to be anyone for not having to beat anyone or anything for anyone anyone. Yeah. There's something about the fear of no self that to me seems wrapped up in eastern philosophy kind of Buddhism that, and I want to take it a little bit more towards an evolutionary context like the fear of death. It really released the fear of death. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean it's not much more than that. Is it like an so many fears kind of come down to that? But it's not just the fear of death physical death. It's also the fear of the death of your memory like basically a I can't remember who said this. But contemplate the moment that you are thought off for the last time. That's a good one. Yeah. Everyone's memory fades, then surely. So when the collective memory of your existence is completely gone, so you're not only physically gone. You're also gone out of the consciousness of the human organism through something. I remember when I was a kid in, in contemplating religion and spirituality in life after death and all this stuff. And I remember someone saying, I think I was like I watched The Lion King. When that came out ninety five or something, and I was thinking, like, you know, move Foucault says December everything continues in the circle of life, when the, the lions die, their bodies become the grass, the antelope, the grass, and so it's okay. Everything is a is a cycle, and I thought about that it was like, well, that's sucks. Because what about my memory and my individuality and? What makes me me like if it doesn't to me, I thought at the time it doesn't matter if I if my body feeds something else if I'm gone. Like that's not solace for me. And then from other contexts of different religions, I suppose you could say Buddhism. Like what, what? Why would it matter? If you didn't if you weren't you after death, you know, if you just shed all the things that make you, you, but now, so many years later, I realize you forget so much anyway. And you still are you and you still are you with a personality in, in the depths of the void that we're talking about in, in the meditation. Like you're still a witnessing presence if you're meditating and able to, to kinda quite down the thoughts the constant chatter of the monkey mind if you can quite that down for long enough, you, you still are witnessing, and that's actually. Far more blissful than the stories of what you believe makes you, you all of the memories, all of the things all the connections that you have like those things. We're just experiences that you had in the moment at some point in time. They're just you experiencing something. And you've latched onto them stories because you like them you put them in boxes of that was good or that was bad. But I find if you ever like if you ever go back and talk to family about some event that happened. People compartmentalize it and completely different ways. Right. They rewrite that memory and they put a label on like that was a good experience. Our family trip to wherever Disneyland was like that was an amazing thing. And one of the kids, just had a miserable time and has put a completely different label on that thing. But really the whole experience in reality was probably just kind of middle ground mediocre, like like any other day yet the car ride sucked and then some of the rise regret than puked on that ride not sucked. And then, you know whatever was twelve hours long things ever like this good awesome. And this bad terrible. It's, it's like there's most experiences are kind of middle ground. But then we put labels on them, and then we build that into our identity in that. Something like, well that makes me me. I don't wanna let go of that memory. But when I'm trying to say is like, there's more value in the experiential moment going on a long rant here. But so anyway, long story short. I came to the conclusion that I don't give a shit about the memories like I could is long as I'm present. Those memories will be a lot better. Anyway. If I'm present in the moment being happy in the moment. Those memories will always be better anyway. And I'll remember them for they were instead of labeling them something different later, or at least, I'll have a closer representation of what they are. Do you mean Emory's or new experiences that you're going to have new memories so experiences that I'm having that get turned into memories? So, yeah, I feel like I've made a very convoluted wave saying, like. The stories of your identity are illusory and not that valuable and no that's going to irk people who are really identified with their identities. But I do think there's a there's far less suffering in letting go of the identity and being in the present moment without that identity in your day to day interactions with people in how you behave in work, and life. And with your spouse and everything. So it's like I wanna loop this back now to the, the fact that there's so much density politics and, and like fragmenting of identities. In what you see, with the, the green S, J W, sort of level of development that we see in the west, can you expand on that for me? You're talking about Spar a Lennox green stage of development. So we haven't done episode in spiral dynamics, which we probably should do the next Yellowstone that next we can still expand on that. And then just go watch the next one when we're done. But it's the pluralist anti hierarchy kind of earth Centric, all are all all points are valid. Yeah. Trying to everything's a social construct. Yeah. Belief in social constructs, and there's a lot of truth to all those things. I don't I know I should talk a lot, but it's not all bad like there's a lot of really high level developmental thinking going on there, but it's really the trouble of see what they're doing. And this is the point I was trying to make is they're, they're trying to discard identities such as gender gender is a big one right now, let's discard identity of gender, like, if I want to be a girl I can act like a girl, and that's fine. In everyone should accept that, and vice versa, if I want to express in one way, and have an orientation, sexual orientation, another way like, all sort of, labels that I would define myself as should be okay. The problem is, is this fragmenting of identity in the latching onto the different identities is a way to self express in signal to the world, your special uniqueness. That's really the problem because you're offloading. Some identities are it's there's a weird contradiction there, where it's like, you're, you're getting rid of an identity, but you're also building it into your yourself a lot more strongly. It's again the same thing where your top level meaning structure, collapses, which is say gender, identity or traditional gender roles and then you start falling and then you start grasping onto the next thing to try to reconstruct a new identity. So you don't complete the deconstruction process actually stuck on the way down. So instead of. Of having a traditional gender identity, you than construct, some sort of fancy new gender identity and try to operate from that. Right. So, yeah, the fragmentation of self expression. Do you think it's because people feel like there's not enough ability to express within more simple rigid definitions of identity like they don't want to be confined to an identity. So they wanna branch off and express in another way. I feel like there's some relation to that. It probably doesn't define the whole experience. But I do think that is an element of it. I'm not sure if this is exactly it. But something that comes up for me, it's like people are seeking freedom from traditional gender identity traditional religious structures, but then they don't complete that search for freedom because freedom is in being fluid like not, not gender fluid as an identity. But actually just being just being whatever you are being comfort. Audible with it, and accepting it and not trying to force anything. It's the label that the kind of trips people up label the needing of that label. And then the label being the thing that defines you instead of you defining, the set of labels that you would like to have, which is irrelevant anyway, you don't need the labels to begin with. So it's like are the mall. It's like you escape the big prison. And then you build the prison for yourself. You know, you escape the societally prescribed identity and then you build your own identity in. It's more confining than the previous one. Yeah. It's smaller and more confiding. Yeah. So the identities for the big thing. Discarding and deconstructing the identity, everything that makes you, you. And that comes with the ideas about, you know, I am this way or I'm this kind of person. Why identifies this just you don't need that? Just be whatever you are. Yeah. What is? So I imagine people asking the question. What is left, like how will how would I express, like how, how dare you? Tell me to throw that stuff off. And then I'd just be nothing. But none of that being nothing. It's about being everything everything that you are without having to put it in a box. That's a good way of saying it. Yep. In not worrying about how society would define you either, like who gives a shit, okay? By putting yourself in a box, you actually cutting off parts of yourself, that don't fit into this neatly you know, package thing because like one day you might feel one way another day you might feel another way. So how do you define that? You don't have to just be so let's live back to sovereignty. So, okay. Here's the thing that comes up. So somebody might have an objection. How can you have sovereignty if you don't have an identity because those two things are often kind of tied together? We'll sovereignty is a capacity that you have it's a capacity. For how you act in the world for how you perceive for how you make sense. It's it's has something to do with being with your with the function of being not with a function of how you define yourself actually has nothing to do with that. There's a critical element in this of how you look at your life, and how you find freedom by this identifying with every one of those labels. You've given yourself by putting everything on I like to say the chopping block, where all of your identities are all of your ideas all of your concepts about the world can now be examined as if they are not you because they're not you. And that's why this is so valuable to sovereignty is because you are logically looking at everything that you'd be previously believed that makes up your identity and your picking it apart. And you're putting it on the chopping board to be dissected in examined and to find the conclusion of whether that things Serbs you to begin with, and then to discard it completely if it doesn't because it doesn't define you. It's just something it's like a mask. Can wear, so, yeah, there's that aspect is actually something really interesting. That was brought up in the call today's there's this kind of intellectual deconstruction or cognitive to construction that you can do, but there's also another piece that's very valuable in that's just kind of the intuitive feeling into something. And so there's this aspect of sovereignty, thus just like intuitively feeling yourself into space where you feel clarity where you feel agency in. That's more of a feminine aspect as it was described in the but I think it is very valuable because there's there's you can listen to your body actually, and you can listen to your body for clues of how you feel about a situation in, you can notice when you're losing sovereignty by how your body's responding I found this really valuable. So, for example, if you feel your palms sweating. Heart rate, elevating you feel is not in your stomach, like that's your body telling you, something's not right? You better, you know, pay more attention to what's happening of, don't understand so much, like, I think, I think you're right about the feminine masculine difference. They're like I don't understand the feminine intuition so much. I do deeply understand the logical deconstruction aspect, which is why I brought that up. Do you want to expand more on one of those? Well, we did an episode about logical deconstruction that will link to in the show notes here that I think, explained it quite well, but I actually wanted to go back to the point about sovereignty relating to identity how they seem to be kind of part of the same thing you know, self because often, there's self sovereign this determine that is used. And it's actually a now us to describe certain things in technology where like self sovereign identity or you know, self sovereign Bank account or self sovereign bitcoin wallet, or whatever, like nobody has control of it except for you. So I want to untie this idea of self from the idea of sovereignty. And this is why I brought up the feeling because. Sovereignty is a capacity. The has to do with being it has nothing to do with your self or identity. Is that make sense? Yes. I think it needs more expansion. It's like in this case, we're talking about sovereignty is a process. Yeah, yeah. That's right. Yeah. I get it. It's not something you are at something you use something you do or be the perception. Yeah. Okay. I still think it's something you do. You do. Yeah. Be actually this is interesting point that being in doing are actually the same thing. There is just the part of the same multidimensional object higher dimensional objects with the kid. It's way too often the space land to go into now. But I think it makes a lot of sense to say it's something you do I'll explain that very quickly, actually because I've thought about this quite a lot so being in becoming are the same thing, but just being as like a snapshot from, like one frame of the film and becoming the whole film, but they're the same thing essentially just depends on how how closely you wanna observe do observe it as like a snapshot in time or like all time existing simultaneously? So be is the snapshot becoming the whole thing. Yeah. Okay becoming is the process unbeaten. Snapshot. But they're part of the same thing. Yeah. So, but yeah, it is something that you're becoming something that you're doing, it's a process like you are perceiving something. You are making sense of something you are acting on something. So the interesting bit about this being in becoming thing is that being is the snapshot, right? At one woman in time you could say I am this right now. And so people take that, whatever that is. And then make a rigid identity of it not realizing that it's a process that keeps unfolding you're becoming you're in inflow like that being whatever you are in that moment is always changing, right? It, it reminds me of, I think the term is state dependent memory. Is that right? Mhm like where you, you know, depending on the state of mind or the emotional state, you're in you end up having different a completely different experience of the world. You even call up different memories than you have access to normally unite discussed this quite a bit about how being in a certain state like being grumpy or something. We'll call up all kinds of different memories like and just solving the emotional state before you work on the problem. That is the subject of the emotional state is the way to have a productive conversation. Yeah. In this totally released, the sovereignty because in order to have clarity of perception need to get yourself to an emotionally neutral state in. That's one of the main thing that messes up clarity perception is being in a out of whack emotionally and that's either being too excited or too, angry or too depressed. Like it could be positive or negative. But it will always color your experience in how you perceiving the world. And so this is why equanimity. Is so important to, cultivate equanimity like to be able to return to a neutral state. I think also in recognizing that you're not perfect at that, either. If you think you're, you know you get calm like you still have that state dependent memory inexperience experience of life, and you have to recognize that like you are all your experience right now is only a small slice of your. Possible. Modes of being all the possible options of the ways you could feel or think, or any of those things in that the way you feel right now is not the way you always are you woke up a completely different person than, than the one who's existing right now in the one who will go to bed later tonight. Yeah. There's a an expression that goes you never walk into the same river twice in. That's exactly it. You're never the same person again after whatever kind of slice moment of your life that chose to define yourself. You're never that person again, because life keeps on folding. So I do really think that, that labelling thing is a critical point about this, like recognizing being in becoming from the identity. You give to yourself the, the roles in the labels you give to yourself. Which is why I'm such an advocate of not, not dispensing with the labels altogether. Not even bothering with them like don't define yourself. Don't feel the need to define yourself to others as a way to signal something just like be what you are be authentically you without the labels and that will actually give you a lot more access to, I would say, sovereignty. Yeah. It doesn't give you a lot more access to sovereignty, for sure. Because then you're not gonna books, you're not constricted and so up on a practical note, people might be like, okay, we'll them. How do I talk about myself? And so those kind of a few things to say about that. Well, I you could talk about yourself less. Whoa. That's crazy. Let's not do that. You could just do, and then the second thing if you do have to talk about, you know, somebody asks you a direct question you could talk about it in terms of what you do. Resin. What you are, like, does thinking disown yourself from the things you call yourself like, yeah, instead of I am this say, I do this. Yeah. I like to do this currently I do a podcast I'm not a podcast her. That does not define me. No. No. I'm not my race. I'm not my gender. I'm not my sexual orientation. I'm not my job. I'm not my khakis. Yeah. That great line from fight club. Everything we've talked about today is covered in our course in sovereignty, which you can find courses dot feature thinkers dot org. The calls we've discussed our ongoing every week. There's something you can get access to his well. And I think we can probably wrap it up here. Right. Anything else you wanna wrap up with about sovereignty. Yeah. I think that sovereignty is becoming more and more relevant in our times, in part, because of the factors that we talked about that the world is becoming more chaotic people's meaning structures and identity structures, crumbling, and sovereignty is how they can operate in this world more effectively without getting swept up into something. Or an ideology, or some sort of a political system that tries to control them, or just being in a in a unpleasant state, not being able to make sense of anything not being able to make decisions you know, being in a perpetual state of outrage. That's just not fun. It isn't a lot of the, the states that these different Meam tribes, put you into are not healthy not productive. Don't feel good. They don't feel good to other people. You're trying to recruit either in the whole thing is just kind of one dimensional in, in boxing in very isolating, but they serve a purpose. They provide an identity and meaning structure. So if you can deconstruct you know, having the need for an extra external meaning structure in an externally defined identity. The new can actually be more sovereign. Did we expand enough on the meaning crisis or do you want to just do that in another time another one? Yeah. Actually, we're gonna, there's a great lecture series by John Vaki. I hope I'm pronouncing that right. It's very, very long. I think it's twenty hours currently in is going to be at fifty hours when it's done will link to it in the show notes and. It talks about the meaning crisis that we're going through right now. It takes kind of a very multi prong approach to it from mythology anthropology you know what's happening in the world right now. It's really, really interesting. I think you guys will like it from the way it sounds so far and only listened to a couple of them. It sounds like he's going through all the different steps of the spiral dynamic stages. Like he's kind of defining the lower stages through stories, and then telling the next stage. So I have a feeling he's going to go through all of that. I don't know for sure. But yeah, I've noticed that pattern is well, I don't know if I don't think he's explicitly mentioned it, but the interesting thing is that spiraled. Amick stages, also parallel the stages of human evolution, but they also parallelist ages of individual evolution from childhood to adult on societal and societal. Yeah. So yeah, so you mentioned him because we're we're we've signed up to do an interview with him, right? Yeah. We're going to do. An entry with him shortly. So that's gonna be fun. Yeah. That will be. Yeah. So we've got that coming up. We're gonna talk about m- tribes and the meaning crisis in the future. And I think probably the next one we're going to do is about sparkley AmEx and actually we could link in the medium tribes to that one, too, because we did that in the course. So we could probably expand on that, that one's a lot of fun. The idea is that you're looking out at the different Meam. Tribes, that exists in this can be like the intellectual dark web or social Justice worry movement, or I mean name a couple of others. I can't think of a whole lot. Yeah. In cells. Yeah. Yeah. There's we actually have a huge spreadsheet that we have mapped out all the different spiral dynamic levels to of all of the different Meam tribes that exists today and the spreadsheets fantastic. If you're interested in learning more about me, and tribes. It's just like it's so thorough all of the different we found it from the article Peter Lindbergh. And I can't remember the name of the other guy. I'm really sorry. But we will link to it actually in the show. There's gonna be a ton of links in that article with from Peter Lindbergh, I think, is a fantastic article but meaning crisis in about Memed tribes. Awesome. We base so much content in one of our lessons on that article, so. Yeah, interesting stuff, go to the show notes at future thinkers dot org slash ninety seven. We'll see in the next one by thanks for tuning into future thinkers for a la- books resources and mentions from this episode Goto future thinkers dot org slash ninety seven. And if you wanna stay up to date with our latest episodes, blog posts, or news from future thinkers. Join our mailing list at future thinkers dot org slash mailing list to meet like minded people. Join our future thinkers, discord community, go to future thinkers that or slash discord. Check out our new course in personal. Evolution. Art, one is on cultivating, sovereignty, and is designed to support you in developing more clarity about your direction and purpose in life making better decisions, and having more agency to live your life on your own terms are to is on integrating, the shadow and is designed to support you in overcoming nihilism and tapping into inner source of energy, creativity and wisdom to make meaningful progress towards actualising your full potential. To learn more, go to courses that future thinkers dot org. Don't forget to subscribe, and hit the Bill icon to get notified of new videos, but can also follow us on social media to stay connected, if you'd like to get a t shirt like the new make America think, again, go to future thinkers dot org slash store. If you like what we do, and you want to help us make more by cast and videos, consider donating or becoming a patron at future thinkers dot org slash support. Also, visit our sponsor Kolya and use the coupon code future to get ten percent off your purchase.

YouTube Peter Lindbergh Meam Joe Rogan Jordan green hall Facebook Terrence McKenna sovereign Bank US East Asia AmEx lions Thailand Thomas Shimon Yellowstone
Getting Discomfortable with Peter Limberg

Discomfortable

1:03:46 hr | 7 months ago

Getting Discomfortable with Peter Limberg

"The stoa is a place that allows you to dialogue with different role views without shaming them and without being shamed in return getting discomfort with peter. Limburg our guest. Today is peter lindbergh. Who among many other things is most recently known as being the steward of the stoa which is The statement that. I really want to unpack. But i i just want to say. Thanks for coming on the show peter. Thanks for having me. Jim excited to be here. So what for the for the listeners. Who don't know what what is the stoa and what does it mean to be the steward of the stoa. Let's take way back all right. Let's see if i can know. Every time i try to explain this. It comes up differently. That's like need to find different right right so i think most simply the store in its current manifestation is an online event space if you will And all the events happen The zoom on zoom calls and There's various different events that happened. irs what. I like to call like a communal podcast. And all that means it's a a guest comes on and The present a lecture get interviewed. And then there's people listening in zoom sometimes like over one hundred and then when pivots to q a portion than people write their questions they can ask a question to the person directly so instead of like a one on one interview podcast. It's like the group the snow one village so to speak into person and then we have various reoccurring events. And i put these Under something called a wisdom gym so we have like A breath work weekly breath work. We have these various kind of interpersonal with inter. Subjective practices collective present zing. I we have your your event. Ashamed breakthrough bootcamp every thursday So if you just go on the website the say can see like a list of all sorts of events but the 'brumbrella as of as of this moment is it as an event space online event space It it task and here the question about the stuart. I'm the the stewart of the stoa. So i created this this place When co vid came online almost a year now the first event was on march. Twenty first and I can go a little bit about my history before that but yeah it started a year ago and i gave myself the name the stuart because i have a proclivity for jazzy. Titles on the website you you you get a sense it. I didn't know what the commerce organizer. I don't know like nothing really fit. 'cause store is a nebulous place. They no one really knows exactly. What it isn't it kinda like to keep it that way and so i just kind of like went to the dictionary and just kinda found stewart on my like that and then i threw that on But something feels right about it I had assumed it was like a stoa schism word steward in the. That's probably a good assumption. But but it's not at least. At least i dunno if it is so yeah. I'd love to hear more about you know you're a bit of your history that led up this kind of inspired moment to start the stoa. Yeah so it's I would say it's the intersection of a few things. One is my interest in philosophy. And they're kind of eclectic intellectual pursuits. You look at my bookshelf. There's like everything from floss. Sophy political science spirituality Very intellectually curious and there's a novelty bias there Which you can definitely see if you just scroll through the guest list of the past guest list of the store. Youtube channel and i took philosophy it when i was at the university of tronto i fifteen years ago now And when i got out of the university went into the world That was kind of like the educational industry. And i was separate from kind of that that just that deliciousness of putting one putting myself at the edge of my thinking and i missed it and so i ended up creating a stoicism group which is sort of With stoicism is as well. But that's sort of my philosophical foundation And that created another group in toronto you to a few of those when they were in person. Yeah so. I had two of these philosophical based intellectual discussion groups and they became quite large like this one became the largest group in the world and so there was some buzz around them So that was one thing that was happening before. The online store came the other thing that was happening. I had a podcast where it was associated with the in person groups than i was injured in a lot of people related to this similar kind of interests and then i was the third bucket is i was a trainer. A dale carnegie training So that's sort of my was spreading my livelihood that sort of where my kind of expertise is is designing training workshop things And then when cova came online You know there was no work anymore. Dale carnegie's They had no online presence. I couldn't meet the groups person anymore. Because of the covid and the podcast would Somewhat uninspired by because it was named a different thing at the time but then a covert came online. All these ideas sort of like mixed together and became the store and is just set this up a little bit more one of my dreams. I think i told you before is to open up a philosophical coffee shop right in toronto So like daylights as a coffee shop on these kind of you know. India coffee shops in moonlights as an event space because one of the challenges was finding a common event space to host these verses events and something about the name Held the particular importance to me. Because that's how the stoic originally got their name The stoa the store kaley painted porch and back in ancient greece Zeno was just hanging around the porteous floss advising with bunch of people and they got the name of stokes because of it So snow is like the foundation of Stoicism i don't i don't view the store as a place to talk about Place to talk about. What's most important. So i was going to open up. This philosophical coffee shop called the stoa can do that because the covid and said hey you know what. This is great an online space. Mix all these interests together and Called the stoa and then it just took off I have a sense of even before the stoa. You're someone who as you said. You have this novelty bias. But you seem to be someone with a bird's eye view on culture or cultural groups. And you were kind of looking at these. Different memes and comparing and contrasting is that right. Yeah that is right One of the things that In addition to those things. I mentioned i was sort of analyzing culture from the meta space. i wrote this white paper that when somewhat viral amongst certain scenes called medic- tribes of culture war to plano and It's sort of yet didn't analysis on a lot of these sort of line. Subcultures groups that don't necessarily talk to each other and uncharitably interpret each other in such a way that might not feel accurate to the person being analyzed by them And so. I wrote that paper in such a way that you know regardless of what quote unquote mimetic tribe or senior subculture. Fall into you. You felt kind of seen or heard by it and it also had sort of a psychoactive component. Because oh wow. There's all these other people out there that even heard of before so that I think was thanks to my novelty bias And that didn't form how i hold and quote unquote stewart the space It seems like you are really trying to bring together all these different tribes as you might call them and see what kind of synthesis or connection could be created. That was the impression i got. Is that feel accurate to you. Yes in it's more like not trying to engineer. It is just sort of having a space where narrative complexity can exist in. What i mean by that is like having a space where people can come dialogue that hold radically different views of what reality is what we should do in it Without trying to impose it on others just trying to hold like. Wow you like people view things differently than i do and not collapsed anyone narrative or impose it on people in the cross pollination that affords and like we don't know i don't know what that's going to merge into but it does have the sense of excitement to it and i do think a lot of current philosophies in the wild older political political stances there's kind of a sense of hopelessness and despair and a lot of negativity associated with it and when you kind of sit in space where the the philosophers called pori. Oh not really knowing what's up In when you can kind of like rest in a poor area without having zaidi it opens up the possibility space of what could be And i think the store has that sense of excitement to it like oh things could be different here and we don't really know what it could be but we're okay with that I love that as someone who spent years sort of longing for objective truths specifically about right and wrong and morality and just wanting there to be one clear system and feeling uncomfortable with the fact that there wasn't it does seem to be so liberating once you cross this threshold. That says it's okay to not know. It's okay to be uncertain to just sort of be open in accepting to a bunch of different possibilities that that's sort of been my experience. Do you feel that way as well. Yes yes totally and To bring some of the the shame stuff into this as well In your work This is happening in You know the culture war with politics with different philosophical viewpoints Interview one that might be less heated like you know the quote unquote new atheists And when they're criticizing kind of people who have a religious viewpoints. There's a sense of like a shame. Spiral shame is being passed around between the two of them in his state. You know like like. I've before in a journal like what you shame stays the same And i see a lot of these sort of medic tribe or different groupings shopping Each other yeah And not really talking to each other and so the the stoa is a place and i think other places or are emerging similar to it That allows you to dialogue with different roles views with shaming them and without being shamed in return Yeah i mean. I there's so much juicy richness in what you just said i wanna i wanna dig in a little bit because to me you know. Shame is all about belonging the safety as a social animal of having a group so it makes sense of course that shame is pressuring us to kind of like create a group identity and stick with that and when something doesn't fit we we wanna shame that we want to be like no be like us. This is what is safe however in the modern world we don't really need these tribes. As such. in fact as i think is cleared. Everyone are causing more conflict than is really necessary and and when you bring up the new alias. That's exactly what i went through. And i'm going through with religion i was. I was sort of implicitly conditioned into a pseudo christian upbringing and then my sexuality started to become apparent. I rejected that whole religious thing and that was powerful at the time there was real utility to that rejection energy but then more recently. I realized that. I don't need to be rejecting religion anymore. And in fact. I'm missing out the upside of religion. Even if i don't like believe in. God i'm starting to see like there's a reason that you know. Six billion people are religious. There's obviously an upside there. I don't wanna miss out on it. And that's very much a perspective that comes from this more uncertainty space more open accepting space where it's like. okay. I can both honor that. It was useful to reject religion when i did but also kind of reintegrate religion. Now that i'm more open minded and get the best of both worlds. So like that's so alive for me. And i i love. The stoa is sort of engendering. That exact kind of re-integration does that fit with you. Like what what does that. Bring up for you. Yeah it brings up Another example That's alive in with me right now. And that's Monogamy versus the polly community And so i'm monogamous I've been so All my life really At oh my kind of adult life In you know my wife camille. I've been with her for like thirteen fourteen years and we've been married for over ten years And you know. Initially it's like there was a when i heard about the poly community and then i read like ethical slot. There was like an almost unconscious like judgment. Judge judgmental vibe for me like what is this doesn't work whatever but intrigued by it and it was only until i started engaging with literature and the community in people who are in it in a good faith. Way ahead to do so with an openness. It's like oh. I might convert you know i might become polly. I may have an open relationship. I might realize like while two things can coexist at the same time. Like maybe there's a monogamous lifestyles and polly lifestyles. That could co exist so that had to be like a world of possibilities for me to do this in the right way but when i started engaging in it in a good faith way without any judgmental energy in just kinda like accepting it on his own terms i gained like a so much wealth from the terminologies just like things like a new relationship. Energy was just thinking that the monogamous community are so blind. Things like that are kind of like i put on it. And when you stumble on that you could just really capture you in then. Obviously the policy community has to deal with these things on a regular basis so they make sense for them. Have these finely tuned concepts in. And and i feel kind of Right now like after engagement with the community. I still feel kind of That monogamy is my pass in relational sense But knowing all these terms the polly community stuff is like wow. I feel like i'm a better monogamous now and i'm friends with people who are poly and i noticed. There is a shame spiral. They're like if shane by monotony the dominant monogamous cultures. the people back there like this weird thing there but if you can a set the conditions set the container such a way where you can have an honest engagement with where you earnestly want to know. The person's reality than that shaney judgmental by just disobeys and you can actually learn and improve From each other's knowledge sets yen is there's a courage involved because as you said there's sort of a point where you're like oh what they're quote unquote right. And what if. I ended up joining them so to kind of like have this open. Inquiry is to potentially be proven wrong in air quotes to potentially be converted to potentially change. And i think that they're kind of needs to be that courage when we engage in trying to connect and openly understand others and that's so exciting and kind of like risky but then ultimately There's this something comforting about knowing that you can be both like you don't have to be you. Don't have to have been right or wrong. You can just be like. Oh well i had an upside over here. And now i see their upside over there and i can do both. I can use both upsides rather than having to keep it so binary that seems to be really important here. Does that feel true to you. Yeah and usually. I find when i am having Kind of that courageous engagement. I'm always surprised. It's never what you expect 'cause you're straw man demonized version of whatever group of people or tribe for or philosophy. You're engaging with never turns out to be exactly what it is and in. It's like the this quote by ken. Wilber really like like no one is smart enough to be one hundred percent wrong. Even if it's not going to be like an exact like fifty fifty like oh like a fifty percent as right as right. It's going to be like that either. Could just be like one percent of what they say is right but one percent could change your fucking life I resonate with that so hard and in the religion thing comes up again. It's like if there are a bunch of people who believe something it's because it has utility. Don't discount that. Yeah yeah exactly. I'm reminded i'm taking a really interesting class on like equity and inclusion right now and apparently there's a the science in groups and out groups that sounds like it's really playing into this phenomenon and what i've been learning is that interestingly when our brain is trying to make sense of the world we have this inherent bias of what our in group is and everybody else is out group and our brain just has a handful of ideas about what that out group is and doesn't really need to know anymore so every person we engage with our brain very quickly decides are they in or are they out and if they're out we have a confirmation bias that just sort of reaffirms looks for reaffirming facts about this small cluster of kind of ideas. We have about that out group so we kind of pigeonhole box in these people whereas our brain does a very different thing with our in group. It looks for individual waiting details for our in group so it's sort of surprisingly counter intuitive that when someone is our out group we look for similarities in them in terms of our stereotype when someone is our in group then we start to differentiate them. We're like okay. So though they're one of us what are they like. What's their deal and so like we. We really create a unique human out of each person that we see as our in group and out group person becomes just one of the same and does that feel like that kind of is playing into this issue And what comes up there for me is Sort of like triggers that you know if it's appearance or like certain words that they say or how the user defined certain words because a lot of this culture war divide is like you know. Certain words is triggers. Certain kind of kind of ideas who this person is. It's like the the halo effect or the pitchfork effect emerges and then the halo effect that you kind of look for the best in the person. On the positive attributes the pitchfork effect is that you you demonize them when you put them that category where it almost like un persons them in your mind. Yeah yeah out group yeah oh crew And yeah i. I i do think that dynamic emerges in it's understandable in its efficient in a way bigger couldn't compression algorithm algorithm emerges saves our brain a lotta energy. Yeah in the the downside of that though is a you're you're not really understanding. The person obvious downside but you're also not understanding yourself Think you're denying yourself an opportunity for insight By engaging in an idea or a person that holds the idea that might threaten you in some way And then there's like. I find like engaging in with all these wild different ideas and ideologies and philosophies is therapeutic in a way because certain emotional realities get gendered in me and i gotta like okay. Stop hold on what's going on here. And why is ideas triggering. Something in me so hard and so not by having the opportunity in this space to process it. I have a chance to sort of in depth in a way In get like surprising lessons that i wouldn't get otherwise. Just how i kind of expressed with the monogamous polly example It seems like like openness and acceptance are really key here. It's like you and the stoa are able to accept a wider amplitude of ideas and feelings. And just be like this is okay. I don't agree and this is okay. And i'm uncomfortable and this is okay. Does that feel true. Yes yes And there's this term Quite like nor bateson introduced it to the store when she came to her series it's called Trans contextual in. It's like all of us are an intersection at all. Times of various contexts like context being like cultures. Essentially as i right or could be just like you know. I'm a husband i'm a steward you know this like all the different things that you identify with or people could identify with you And it's like we're intersection of all. That and that intersection has never the same thing. It's like a snowflake and so if you look at someone as an insurer trans contextual being a trans contextual person then you get to see them as the mistreated they are. I love that. I love to think of myself as like a journey and it seems fitting with that. It's like oh look at this this. I'm seeing a glimpse of this person's journey a slice of it right here but who knows where that journey is leading. It seems like a beautiful way to look and think of people right right and like the whole group of thing like like first of all. I think it's good to have close people that you can deeply trust and you feel like you can share things with and like a sense of tribalism will engender from that. Obviously but then when it comes to tech categorization scheme like these are in group out group and then kind of ca- how that sort of bastard is reality in a certain way It denies that kind of trans contextual reality because if you're in group or a group they're kind of there's no mystery there yeah yeah and i think when when we feel fully alive in relationship with another You see the other person has mystery and you see you see yourself as mystery and you feel the mystery together and that's fucking delicious because we're we're at the edge of something right there the edge of knowing this together In in certain conditions like certain sense of safety needs to exist but also a certain sense of danger. East exist there to I mean it really does seem like that possibility is most alive within the umbrella of whatever our brain calls it's in group which is like for some reason we're like okay. This person is okay or one of us but then who are they that that's where it opens up all these questions about like. What unique snowflake are they within this safer. Realm of us news. And i have a longing to just expand my in group capacity. Obviously there's only so many humans. I can actually like deeply connect with like. I think i've heard it's like one hundred fifty. But i'd love to just i don't know Hack my in group out group bias. Which i think is a part of in order to try to let as many people as i can so that i'm always curious about like okay. So you're okay but who are you I like that and i referred to for as a protein tribalism And maybe we can call like protein in group and protein here means like kind of like shape shifting That yet like that container of the in group when someone's in that in group There's a sense of psychological safety and you know all those good good come. Energies invoke But if that container is rigid only certain people can like be filtered through it. Then you're still not seeing. The person has the mystery that they are. But if you have sort of a container that can shape shift in encompass many different people many different times and i think It's very artful as like art indiana order to do that It affords that that sense of mystery. At least that is the theory that i'm operating on i. I mean as we've been talking. I've been like i just keep reflecting back on the keegan stages. I don't know if this is something that you've dug into very much but it feels like this. This open playful space. That you're talking about is is very much in line. with what would be called keegan. Five and i. It's sort of Maybe you've maybe people have already called. I think i've heard someone say the stoa as a space is very keegan five. Does this resonate with you at all. I don't like all these developmental Frameworks like the key stages or spiral dynamics i vibe with them and resonate with them and then you know an eye playfully kind of gesture towards them often to my journals and whatnot. But i don't hold onto them to strongly and i really liked that colin morrison from Ziona two point. Oh he says what's the key can stage where you stop giving a shit about keegan stages and i love that and that feels like the stage. I'm in and then perhaps that is stage five. Yeah i think it is three and four. You really give a shit about keegan stages that tweeted recently to your like stage three and maybe this will have to be unpacked for people. Listen this but the state street actually care about wanting to get a stage. Five stages yeah. It's very true. I guess why it came to mind. Was you know. I'll do a whole episode about key in stages for those who are like. What does this mean but like qian stage. Three for me was i was so identified with my shame and my emotions that i was kind of like chameleons socially and trying to fit in desperately with every group and then i had my shame break. I went into keegan four to some degree which was like very individual. Aided and then. I'm starting to see with what you're saying the similarity between keegan three and kick and five in that you are a chameleon in the sense that you can move around playfully from different tribes and try on their upsides and and it's not like you're desperately trying to be one of them. You are just kind of like roving around slightly bird's-eye saying like what's the. What's what's the deal here. That makes this so appealing to some humans. But then what's the deal over here. That makes this appealing to some humans. I wanna try it all. On addition it i wanna wear it but i'm not like desperately trying to be it. Does that make sense. I think this will put I like the trying on metaphor. It's like yeah different. Philosophy different worldview is like an outfit. You try on You might not like that outfit or you might not wanna wear it all the time at least yet. The capacity to put it on and then Kind of appreciate the the perks of you might actually like an aspect of it. Like i like these socks or something you might want. Keep those But yeah that's that's that's that's right and that's I think what. I do With people encounter in the social wild. And that's that's the space that i'd like to still to be the have this kind of like a wardrobe of various different philosophies available for people to try on I love that. So so you've just spent a year raiding the closets the philosophical closet all of these different tribes and i'm curious like what are some of the gems that you've found like are there some theories and philosophies or aspects of that are really standing out for you because like you know you had this cultural bird's eye view before and now like i can only imagine the many different insights you've tried on. It's like it's fascinating and i'm curious to know like once bubbling up. Is it changing. Are there certain things. What's what's the most alive for you as a good question I can't even pinpoint it to one sort of philosophy person because it's like a probably almost a thousand events that we did i would say That's almost fair to say at this point The recorded ones Probably around four hundred recorded events and those are the communal podcast interview styles or someone comes in shares their ideas. And that's on the youtube channel. If you just browse through it it's like you can't really pattern match. What the story is Philosophically ideologically or whatever and i like that And we've had people had noam chomsky. We had contra coins we had We had so much people and they're all interesting just the intersection the cross pollination of them. It's not about the content. It's about like how one engages in congress dot is. What kind of feels like on getting more skillful at so it is this meta level this openness this acceptance like the the the rating the way to raid the closet or interact with the closet is the real insight. That's what i'm hearing. Yeah yeah and It's like what's coming to mind is Our friend john. is a professor at the university of toronto. Any does something about the meaning. Crisis has a series on it And he has these Four ps of knowing and the first two or two of them says a proposition knowing. And then participatory knowing and provisional knowing is sort of like what is the truth of the situation so these are like the content of someone's ideas and participatory knowing is this like the The knowledge that it takes to actually do something. So an example that i like to use like michael jordan. He's like has a lot of participatory knowing on how to play basketball well but he doesn't necessarily have the skill set. Phd level textbook on basketball different things. And so when referring to kind of engaging with these things. It's like yeah. They all have their proposition knowing. One of them But it's the participatory knowing how to gauge with the nets. The key can five levels just kind of like engaging with them in such a way without collapsing the to their worldview and without shaming at the same time to me it almost sounds like cognitive versus embodied knowing you know there's so many so many ideas about shame that i understood cognitively for a long time but it wasn't until they got into like my limbic system where my body somehow i don't exactly know what the sciences that i really got it. I was like. Oh now. I get it and i can see it and live it rather than just explain the theory of it and so like i'm curious to what degree i'm imagining. Some people come and you like you understand them on this cognitive level and other people come with ideas and you really kinda like get it on a physical level or are you doing both like how do you relate to those two ways of knowing when it comes to the the different ideas at the stoa. Yeah it's like That's a good distinction maps over. To what what i just said Cognitive embodied And then proposition participatory And People very clear in Precise with the words that they use in the way that the define them and you can engage in that realm like okay. They're using this word like this in this. What they mean by it so you can come to terms and some people are more fast and loose with the words that the us and maybe the broad terms that feel kind of nebulous and a lot of people in the clinical hippy spiritual type communities have that had. That was speaking about things but they speak about in such a way that you feel like an abiding. I get what they're saying right. Now get what they're gesturing towards And so i find depending on who shows up in sort of where they have more proficiency in a certain part of my knowing gets activated in my trying to understand the more from an embodied realm and then kind of like charitably interpreting it in the pro and the cognitive oppositional or my first understanding them from the proposition. cognitive realm and then trying to sink into my Participatory embodied knowing in order to kind of like a ground. Those truce We talked about you know i. I sense that the store does have these two sides. There's there's certain Offerings that are more on the like feelings embodied side and then there's like maybe even more offerings on the intellectual cognitive proposition aside and we talked about like the almost a bridging the gap where okay here this is the learn the idea and then like how can we get it into our bodies as being kind of like making sure. We do both sides for our due. Diligence does that seem like a a wise move. Yeah and that split. I talked about the stores. An event space. And then we have this community podcasting which is more Is has a bias towards You know proposition cognitive knowing and the most of the videos on the youtube channel are that because most of them more embodies sessions. Like your yours is. They're not recorded But there is currently. I would say an imbalance towards more conservative proposition. And perhaps it's just the frame of the stoa all the intellectual jazzy names. That i use it could attract more people who have dot bias But i find like. I'm like lot of sessions. I'm zoning out to heady intellectual or disembodied and I'm slowly feeling call to have a more like have a healthier balance And i don't know exactly what it is is a fifty fifty split is it could be a different kind of like Ratio but if you call to make things more bodied and i get really excited and if you're alive when a guest comes in That shares information that can be acted upon and like the basis like. We didn't talk much about those are not really called the talkable stoicism because of this like one of main axes of stoicism. This is the epa. Keates don't talk about your philosophy and body Well and and i want to be a place. Where if we're going to be talking about something from an abstract lens. We can quickly embody it or have some practices Or culture practices that allow it to be embodied I love that i'm curious. I wanna pivot a little bit into you. Know i've got a sense. Now of what the you learned from the guests in this meta level. But i'm wondering like what have you learned on a more practical level from stewarding the stoa about about humans about putting on events about like some juicy learnings in there as well like more the technical steward side as opposed to the philosophical to stewart side. Yeah so it's it's essentially like a one man operation We're like probably averaging twenty events a week and And actually allow a lot of work going on with this and we haven't talked about this as well but since covid i've been writing to myself every day as well which is like an extra Thing that i do. So there's there's a lot of work being put into the space and you it's organization is huge like just being a administrator in that sense But the the more. I think interesting one is I felt like i got inter personally and intra personally upgraded Through this place Since it started and nothing clearly is coming to mind there but imagine it can be teased out. But definitely because i've interacting with so much be els which people come in my life is just amazing and yet here's one thing that's a little bit on the the spiritual side might be a pivot but mention it because just came alive is A beacon the star Essentially a passion project And i'm not using it to instrumental to make money do this or whatever it's like I was called to create it. And there's like the word frequently uses the dame all or some people off the dime on and kind of explain that in a secular lands like that kind of creative intuition that says go here without explaining that going. There will be a good for you but you like your call to go there. Is someone you to go there. And if you listen to that that that voice that kind of like demonic nudging you go there usually an adventure emerges and something good comes from it and all my credit projects in my life including the stoa. The saw have been me listening to this creative intuition in going there So that is sort of the spiritual Mo of how. I operate with this project. And i'm finding when i when i create things in the spirit. It's like putting a beacon out there in to find the others and then super awesome people coming into my life and they're coming like the stove like kind of like a a next point really for all these people to meet each other and it's like a beacon And i find that. Like i i like to call it like networking which is like that dirty word and business world but i liked. I liked his term called net playing. It's like my network has increased tenfold by mijas plane by falling this demonic essence creating this beacon that the others and that is sort of like one of many of the county insights like wow that that like fi radically. I got sensitive before but you know this shit actually works like doing it. Yes i love this term net playing. I hadn't heard that. I love that so much that so inspiring and i guess i'm kind of curious to like. Take your temperature. How do you feel about people right now. Like you've with so many people some some great some difficult. I'm imagining like where you at. On people in general is it optimistic. I love people in that. The abstract way i guess you know like the sir tra said like other people's hell i think that's his quote. Yeah yeah and when. I was younger at least embody level. Maybe not on a cognitive level. I felt that. I had a negative sense towards this. Abstract categorization of people even had really close friends that i adored But yeah that's dissipated that kind of That essence When i think of people that extra term people humanity whatever i just feel warmth Kind of a loving energy and And just sort of like. I don't really have that kind of in group out group strict categorization anymore It's lot more nuanced. How people and i do people when i come across someone as a trans contextual being in a way not to say i have a slew of social a taxonomy in ways to categorize people. I do think those could be helpful. to help kinda like navigate the social realm but hold onto them very very lightly And not in a way that sort of this other fulfilling prophecy view. Someone certain way you treat them that certain way than they are acting that way a pygmalion effect. That's what they call it So i i do have a lot of ways that i kind of like filter through people in. I think you need that to a to a degree. But for the most part when i'm on a one on setting in the container is designed in such a way that a connection can be afforded I just try to see the mystery and the other person and it's quite beautiful. Yeah i notice that. I still have a kind of default fear of other people like when i'm walking in forest by myself i'm like feeling a lot of joy and then i see another person on the trail and i noticed a little bit of shame and fear. Come up just like naturally like a so. I have like an embodied sort of sense that other people might hurt me somehow. That's that's something that i'm working on. So it sounds to me like when you walk metaphorically or literally by yourself through a forest and you see another person up ahead. Your body is starting to react in a much more like open curious way. Does that feel true to you I think context is important here because I have something similar to what you experienced. If i'm in the physical wild walking around I don't think is good to be naive And just kind of like have this like trustful energy with everyone because your people out there that will hurt. You will harm you. And that's just a reality of life right now and in some people. Have the proclivity do that. More than others In with either direct physical harm or psychological harm. So i don't recommend others. I don't hold out myself to be naive with it. I think becoming more sophisticated with certain power literacy really helps with that sophistication That being said i think container is King or queen here in this is going back to the container with the group and this is basically the stoa or any kind of workshops. setting Is the person who's responsible for the container agenda Designee in such a way that affords these connections to emerge. And when you're in the wild these containers don't exist right. They just like form When two people or to more people interact with each other. So i think it's good to have protective layers In an examined way and with the adjacent skill set of being sensitive to the containers agendas designing them in such a way. That affords true connection Yeah i'm thinking of bernard brown talks about how with a right boundaries. You can be empathetic. You know for to a much greater degree and boundaries empty without boundaries is like not safe and it sounds to me like this container the right boundaries is is is what creates the safety for you to be able to then really connect with people. Is that right. Yeah yeah i actually think boundaries is a good way to look at it as like not being rigid boundaries. And not having sort of one model that just you imply is like maslow's hammer like once you have a hammer. everything becomes a nail once. You have one. Boundary structure like everything falls under that boundary structure but like each context. Each situation sort of Requires a different boundary in maybe is just small little tweaks to accommodate whatever the context is. But yeah having it's like boundary work is like an art form an internet. Something i'm i'm buried kind of sensitive to not just as an individual But also when i am responsible for hosting an event or a space or something like that And i imagine that transparency thus is key it's not about maybe having the exact same boundary every time. But it's about being clear okay. In this moment this is what i think is the right boundary. is everyone willing to Kind of go with that. Does that seem right. Yeah yeah. And i think sometimes it's important to have them explicitly stated like a kind of like circling communities decision for me. I know you're actively in it like they're very explicit with the guidelines the container the boundaries that people are walking into And sometimes you know these can be stated in Indirectly like when you come across someone you can't just say. Hey this is my boundaries. And i want you to follow these guidelines. They let this work like that in majority of cases but you can kind of express your boundaries in such a way that is quite clear and if someone transgresses that then it's like you know they know what the options are and that's kind of like you know certain his training and it's an art form itself but It's it's it's a distinct skill. set doing it in a while. Then designing a container that that When people come to the stoa they are obviously primed to be within a certain Loose container to some degree whereas in the forest. Who knows what's gonna happen. Yeah exactly so. This is kind of making me. Think about the new coaching thing that we're doing at the stoa for those. Who don't know i'm doing coaching and peters doing coaching and you know hearing you talk about this sort of like the the way that you play all these different theories and ideas and philosophies it's like how do you then teach like you know it seems like you need something concrete to teach perhaps or maybe not. Maybe i'm being naive. Maybe you can teach this sort of meta perspective. Like when wh- you know when i think about this whole keegan level five thing i i start to become so open and accepting that i almost lose the will to really be like this is what i think. Here's the upsides. I'm kinda like. Hey i don't know you go often to figure it out for yourself. So i wonder where you land in that nebula city. Yeah that's a good question This is something that i'm actively working out. I imagine you are as well coaching practice. So just two sets a kind of The preface it When i'm gonna say is that so. We have this coaching resonance series at the store. it's Tyson wagner Yourself in me Tyson is the flow guide. So he's like a free style kind of rapper and he'd repurpose freestyle rap in order to make people more comfortable with flowing with their language Aj's the shame educator an i'ma the damon whisper which is probably one of the three And i think with with you in tyson It's your your practice is bounded by something like yeah like know flowing and then kinda having sophisticated being right relationship with shane So i think that could be mistaken here But i think having bounded thing helps inform one with The methodology that emerges that becomes most efficient so to speak with the wide variety of people. And you. I know you already have One in the near experimenting within this coaching practice as well and what also makes coaching practice. Great that we're in is situated in the gift economy so we don't it's not in the market economy where it's like. Okay you've got to charge us. Two hundred dollars. We give you our our time. it's a little looser more loose than that Where we come in certain time and then person as a gift. We give our coaching offering as a gift and someone Gives us a gift in return a monetary gift in return. Sometimes you know some people didn't give it very few though but then sometimes people give really tremendous gifts That's sort of the the preface that the practice and for mine the dame on whisperer. It's it's you know. I'm discovering what it is and Default that i use sort of method if you will is Philosophical counseling Which from andrew. Taggart and how. I would describe. That is usually someone's coming in for a reason they don't just like come in for no reason and that reason usually has to like marketing lingo like a pain point And that's where the opening is like the existential opening if you will. What is most salient. And that's a starting point and then just asking the right question that allows that exploration to begin This is really hard to that on your own. Unless you have a really diligent journaling practice or something like that because monkey mind takes over go through all these different directions Yes that sort of the the basis and have all these coaching other techniques as well and was also interesting about this. This is the stoa Is so has such a diversity of thought has such like a epidemic diversity is at everyone's coming in with a different worldview. So what i find is that i have to get a sensitivity of what the world view is then work within it and then engage that something akin to that methodology i described so there's like an extra layer that i have to engage with and this is a i guess key can five stuff and this is making me really sophisticated in sort of code switching. Authentically win the person's perspective language in order to be of Service to the I love that. Yeah like my my coaching practice is definitely a little bit more keegan four. It's like i have a system. I'm gonna bend you to my system which is perhaps why it doesn't is like a every now and then there's a client where it's like. Wow we just like it just really didn't connect there and so i appreciate your ability to kind of like assess the scene and be like okay like this is what's going to speak to them and also like this is what might you know scaffold around their view already to expand it in a useful way that i guess ultimately relieves this pain point. That seem accurate. Yeah yeah and i also add. There is I've got a few people were just like. I didn't didn't feel like that. Like i was a person to be of service to them and i think this is this is like is an experiment for us in marketing. Because you know there. There is a way to sophisticated Like offensively and sophisticatedly mark in such a way that finds the others that you filter out people but the way we have a right now. He's throwing the website and anyone lulus looks cool then they jump in and they might not be you know they might not know what they're going into exactly And so we're just a month into this and i think the more we do it Either in the in the store or as individuals in our own thing. will more Fine tuned in really describing advertising it so people go in knowing exactly what it's about And i will say you know and this is like a compliment to the stoa. The people who come though like there are a lot of different points of view are all really smart. Like really you know It's often kind of like a intimidating even or challenge tobacco. Wow okay this spurs has got a lot of either. They've been a lot of really strong ideas of their own or they kind of already understand what i'm telling them to such a degree that anyway that it's like do they even need me so i i'm like really i'm really enjoying interfacing with the kind of people the stoa draws together and i feel like that's what draws people to the stoa it's this beacon that brings together just a a really intriguing kind of person and i think that that is like a real achievement of yours. Yes thank you And and it's like it's like it is intimidating for me as well as this not only freakishly smart people but free smart people who tend to be more on the embodied side to Like they're they're interested in both the what you call it. The cognitive embodied realm And so they're like pretty pretty sharp people in. I find With my coaching sessions. I feel a similar thing. It's that someone's coming in like will the on at least on a cognitive level. They got their shit handled they. They don't need me there You know and then it's like kind of acknowledging that like okay this you know respecting them that domain in some people come in treating me as an authority authority and i kind of got like reduced at little bit. Because i'm here for either. Unlike you just kind of like teaching methodology. I'm here to kind of like Be embodied together. Help us being body together. But yeah getting sensitivity with who i'm dealing with and how to best be of service to them is it's something that's hard to describe but i'm feeling like this is a skill that is developing through this practice And it's really rewarding like getting to connect with people one on one and really like digging into them and to me. Because i looked to bring a lot of myself to the sessions it it. It's so different than doing a group thing you know with like fifty people are one hundred people. It's it's so intimate and interesting and it's just like a whole 'nother way of interacting and i'm i'm really enjoying it and i it sounds like you are as well. Yeah i'm loving. It becomes really really loving it. And i'm like i'm surprised you know we didn't do this sooner at the store but the feels like this is the time So yeah i'm very grateful for doing it. Grateful for you know having a coaching adventure buddy in with with you and tyson. Yeah well. I am so grateful to just sort of have like somehow. Luckily you know gotten my umbrella hook on this moving train. That was the stoa early on. Like i don't even know how it happened. It was a point in the stoa. Where you could just like really quickly go from being a participant leading your own group and and so i just sort of like i feel like i'm a i'm along for the adventure of wherever the stoa and you're going and and so that's sort of just me being like thank you for involving me in this really cool thing and then also opening it up to like. Where's the this is sort of a joke question. But it's opening up an ending. Where's the train going I i wanna just sit at the. The gratitude is well received my friend. And i have a lot of gratitude to send your way as well. You've been here since the beginning really And i was actually thinking headed aging. I i kinda like connect when the stoa started. Because i i recall you being at a few person events but we never really spoke It's just like no. I heard you in some of the group conversations like okay. This guy sharp And then i saw you at some of the Early online sessions And i can't remember how we connected. But i was going through this kind of like you re journals back. Then it was like having a spiritual crisis. And i just like i felt like upgraded and was just reaching out to everyone was like love was emerging as i really like a trusted my intuition and i send something. Was there between us in with you and so yeah you united some really cool exercises loving crans. Meditation or nursing bought light which set up the other chamber through bootcamp. You've been here since the beginning. Really so Week after week which is quite awesome. so yeah lots of gratitude your way for being here in support of the project And answer your question. Where is the stoa Going so the it started on march twenty first Last year Disrobe after the pandemic was announced. And there's on the anniversary of andrew There's maybe the end of the store party and on the stole might end on. Its one year anniversary and the idea of this things. The sand mandala. I don't know if you know the having like Like mandalay these like like really kind of Integrate an integrated circles than Google it looks beautiful and then I think in the buddhist tradition they create a mandala out of sand and after they create this beautiful thing they just like brush it away and then it goes away. And and i've you stole is a work of art really. I don't know viewed as a business organization a school or anything like that if you work of art. A collective work of art really That is stewarded by myself. And yeah just idea that it could be a sand mandala and it goes away and then it was just Beautiful experience for all of us for a year. Nine that to me is the artemis. Yes do it do it do it stewart. But that's one option. Another option is It just continues in. There's a lot of other kind of interesting threads surprises emerging in my mind I don't wanna tell anyone not even my wife Or cat socrates. I just wanna keep it to my myself So yeah the mystery is going to exist until the the party on the party. All what what what happens next So for those who are hearing this and Haven't checked out the stoa. Go to the store dossier and go to events while you can and then on march twenty first. We're gonna have this party and see what what is going to happen next. And and i think this podcast will come out at least a week in advance of that. So people have an opportunity to check out this store and see how it all ends cool. And you're going to be there. Aj at the party. Yes so yeah if you wanna to. Aj tyson a bunch of other Facilitator superstars were all be there. And we're gonna have a lot of fun Well thank you so much for coming on the show. Peter i could obviously talk to you on and on forever but i feel like this is probably a good place to wrap it up. Are there any final things you want to share practically about. You know places. People can check you out stuff like that. Yeah you can check out events at the store dot ca and my sub stack. I journal to myself. Almost on daily basis is the stoic. Practice of journaling to myself are journal to oneself Beyond that you know Check out asia stuff. a big supporter of what you do my friend and very grateful to have had this conversation with today. Yeah me too. Thanks so much. Peter and i look forward to chatting again soon. Maybe after the store we can have another interview and see what the damon is pointing to then beautiful. Let's do it

keegan peter lindbergh university of tronto stewart toronto peter youtube Sophy dale carnegie Dale carnegie cova colin morrison Ziona zaidi plano stuart irs Wilber camille
Beri Smither: American Model

Art of Failure

27:07 min | 2 years ago

Beri Smither: American Model

"They can. Part of failure. I'm your host Steve Friedman. Thanks for tuning in. Yes. This is art of failure the podcast that explores what it means to fail as a human person. We all try so hard not to fail on a daily basis. And we also forget on a daily basis that failure is part of life, and that we can use failure as a catalyst for growth and movement towards bigger. And better things guys today, we have one of those awesome supermodels from the nineteen nineties berry Smith, very started modeling shoes. Seventeen and was sent to Paris where success follow she worked with fashion icons, such as Bruce Weber her Brits, Arthur Elgort, Michael Thompson. Steven Klein, Peter Lindbergh, and many more barriers appeared on the covers of and workman, countless magazines, including American British talian and French vogue as well as L Laurie. Claire glamour and caused. Politics in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight buried appeared in her first Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue, two thousand twelve appeared on E television, scouted mentoring young models, and she continues to mentor young folks getting into the fashion industry today. She is a working model, and she spoke to me about that career growing older and how she shot herself in the foot again. And again, listen up. It's so good to see you. Thank you so much doing this. Thanks for having me. Awesome. To have you here. How are you? I'm amazing realty grateful. That's the admiring the name of this podcast, especially our of failure. Because I just think that that's a powerful phrase Arte failure. I think there is art in it. I think there's art in the recovery from it. It's interesting is positive, and I think to use the word art, I think there's art in lots of things, and I was sort of brought up. No art is art art is Moller or Van Gogh or dealiest or Shakespeare. But nothing else is art that I fell in love with all these other things like sports, and the and all these other things and found art in them. So I think that there is art in failure. And the people that I'm talking to and you included successful people. How do we use failure? As a catalyst. How do we use failure to come back from get over? Deal with allow it to be there the duality of it. So anyway, Where'd you? Grow up, you grew up civic north west northwest. Beautiful. What was that like great? I was in the suburbs. Head grass. I you know, I had a great childhood. I mean, you know, a little bit of disruption when the divorce happened. All ten early failures for you like, do you? Remember some early things. Maybe maybe your parents. My mom considered getting pregnant eighteen not necessarily fell yer, but it wasn't spoken about their failures. And I don't remember hearing a lot about especially not for my dad. Okay. But yeah, I mean, every family has failures dark skeletons in the closet. Yeah. For sure. I would say, you know, what when I was twelve thirteen. I was big track are very into long jump and high jump, and and excelled, and I qualified for the national the national meat, and I went, and I did my poorest performance ever because of nerves I was super super nervous. And I gave my the worst jump ever placed thirteenth now at the end of your career. Not quite it's winding down because I became more interested in extracurricular activities, right? The teen different. Gotta Hijau different. Kinda high jump pie. Yeah. That happens at that age to to a lot of people. Yeah. Okay. And in a very young age, you were tapped to go to Paris and get the modeling can just talk a little bit about that the beginning of your modeling career. And what your feelings were about all that stuff as a kid. So yes, fifteen I was seventeen seventy so after high school I finished high school kind of tumultuous path of high school made it through and then all through my life people. It said you're so photogenic you should model. I had no academic ambition. So I just wanted to travel really wanted to see the world. So I said, you know, let me get this modeling shop. So I went to agency. And they said sure you could work agency in the Pacific actually well in Oregon. Yeah, they have agencies all these small cities looking for local girl next door. Well, there's local work to those local department stores as nineteen eighty nine different. But they still exist and these smaller markets, and so I started working, and then they. They said do you want to go to Paris? I have a scout this interested in new scout meaning agency there that's interested in you. And I went and I got out of Salem through modeling. Seventeen seventy to graduate high school. What was tumultuous about high school? Well, I other than the normal things that high school is go through right? Yeah. Yeah. Growing up is challenging sometimes you know, I'd like to drink like to experimental lot. So I took that path. And I I wrote it real hard long time and. Yeah. I think it wasn't so much high school was challenging I think just that period in my life was challenging so early. Eighteen nineteen people are paying you to do small gigs. Or is it is it just skyrocket from the beginning. Well. It was skyrocket from the beginning. I mean, I was blessed. I met the right people. We clicked it was off to the racist from them, and I was making money quickly. So when people before you started modeling said, you know, you've got this great low key shit. You could do this. How did you feel about your physical appearance before modeling started? It's funny. I would look at magazines and see Christy Turlington. I would compare myself and say I I could do that. But I was too frayed. Interesting. So it it fell into my lap kind of because my stepdad had connections. And so I just kind of said, yes. And then it turned out I seek it. Yeah. Yeah. So would you say that you had a good healthy image of your appearance? I don't think it's changed much from now to then. What is that? What is kidding kidding? I've grown and I've got more confident and accepting of myself. And I think then I was. Young. I just I just keep relating to filling young. I mean seventeen eighteen you're so young you really having done like the major comparing yourself to others yet. You might miss started. You haven't done like the my waist, isn't that small my late my thighs? It's fat my profile my, but is a bubble. I need a flat. But I need bigger boobs. I need whatever I say these things every morning, by the way. As a kid seventeen. I knew I wasn't like this bony girl, but it didn't affect me as much as maybe it would have like you're my twenties and thirties when I really wanted to change like when I wanted to change, but I couldn't because this is the body that God gave me. So it's like do the work to accept the body and treat it the best. You can like an athlete. Train's model is the same. I would always look at it. Like that. Like, it's my business. Just like an athlete trains for the race. I need to train for my business. Pure say started to get a healthier view toward it and also just an accepting view too. Because you can only go so far all this early success as a model skyrocketed, and but there's some early failures to can you talk about some of those of sure I mean, I was at the height of my career and. I was. So a lot of my life revolves around recovery from drugs and alcohol or good. And I mean, I was at the height of my career. And I was my life was being run by the substances. Not by my choices. I was not showing up for the third day of DKNY campaign with Peter Lindbergh. Well, I did show up my agent had to come get me. Duck my head and ice. Like, you definitely feel like a failure. When you're walking out at nine AM, new your apartment with your sunglasses on everyone's going to work and the kids are going to school to hear them, and you're going to get more drugs. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's definitely a failure. Walk. Walk for sure. Or, you know, some of the disgraceful things that we do under substance abuse that you know, we wouldn't do otherwise. 'cause we we didn't have choices if we're true addicts alcoholics. But even even DKNY thing the third you do make your Asia calls. They get buried to the set they get her and they dunker head on the ice. You go home that night, you probably still involved with substance. But there's no feeling of Morris or I I gotta get my shit together. Or I screwed up a fifteen thousand dollar shoot or whatever. Well, I mean, I've done that before where I've cancelled the day before and had to pay for the studio rental maybe a few of the people's day rates some of the props that's happened before. And what is what does that feel like? Believe it or not so weird. I I'm not connected to because like my agents would just take care of it. Of course, it was my money, but they would just take care of it. I mean, it's really that classic story of being enabled. And I was making money. It's not like I had a lot of time to sit and wallow. It's like shut so much to home with the substances you shut so much down. But I've had plenty of time to reflect back and say, I wonder what things would have been like if I was not actively using alcohol and drugs, but if it were meant to be that way, I believe in God. So I believe that somehow, someway, the powers that be sort of like knew that that's not what I could handle at that time. And I also believe that the story's not over the story is not over, you know, I mean, we're this is part of writing all of our stories sitting here at this table right now if you go back and you connect the track me and soon after the track meet you start to with the substances and living a little bit wild. And then it sort of gets you. It gets you to this twenty years of recovery, which is remarkable. And it's definitely a freedom. But what you get is this big full life from that from that failure. And if the end game is to help other people being sober is definitely. The pathway to to be conscious to do that. So just it just a little deeper dive on one or two actual failures that you can think of you didn't get a cover or you've got kicked out of thing or you're not the girl anymore failure in relationships. I'm single I'm forty seven. I could get all caught up about that. And that's a failure. But I'm not going to do that. I choose not to do that. Right. I mean learn from it are things that failed. It you're saying it's a choice. You choose not to choose not to go there. And I think that's a hard thing for young people to when the failure happens. Proceed failure happens. There's no choice. I can't believe this thing happened to me. And that there's a choice that you have at that moment. Yeah. I mean, there's the time when due to Michael hall behavior, I was a cover try for big magazine, and I showed up and I did the job. But. I'm ninety nine percent. Sure. That I was not chosen for the cover because of the state that I arrived in upsetting. But again gonna like hang on that. No. I think I'm gonna keep it moving. Do you think there are people who get information like that? And don't recover from that. I think if they do if they have a propensity to sway to the negative. I think they have to work really hard at it. Right. A lot of work to to come back and keep keep moving. Don't let it define us. You need to read a book. Thank you ever told you that before I my whole career. I've been told this too seriously, my whole career, let's take a moment. Here message from our sponsor for today's episode. Do you suffer from foam? Oh, now, there's new mo- foam. Oh, mo- foam. Oh, help you channel your anger for the failure of missing out Momo has two layers. The first layer helps you feel the anger and the second layer helps you gently forget the event you missed by using time release mini epinephrine bloggers called Nanno AP's. Do not driver operate heavy machinery with Momo such as backhoes clam-diggers and firehoses. Don't take nursing or pregnant or if you have ever nursed, call your doctor right away. If you feel like he or she is missing out on something or just missing mo- foam. Oh, let go of the fear of missing out. Welcome back to berry smoother and art a failure. You know, I think that the images I know we'll go back to the career for a second. But today with Instagram Facebook, social media, and these carefully curated images that we all have. What do you say to young women about body image internal image when they feel like they're failing compared to the rest of the world. I mean, you said that I don't have that experience. I mean, I totally do it's coveting. It's like you're covering something. You don't have. So whether that be a family scenario or seen or a house or someone small waist or someone's husband or someone's wife, you know, see scenarios fantasies. Well, it's images that we're seeing. I don't know if it's fantasies. I mean, everyone likes to what you see on the outside. But how do you know? It's like that on the inside for those people like don't always just go right to the it's fake because it might not be fake. And so what it's like let the people live their lives. My my solution around all that is to not look at it that much. Media. Yeah. To be quite honest. That's healthy. And what I would say to kids around it is. I mean, I look at my nieces six nieces and one nephew all ages twenty four and under. So they are, you know, right with social media, culture and. I think that I mean, there's all these studies. It's it's making us worse or you because we are never quiet. We're never detached to. We're never wondering or imagining. We're not training. Our brain to read like books where we're just you know, it's like a video game. We're constantly in this video game or watching a video flashes flashes. Flushes flushes, but at the same time, okay, we can sale this. And like, everyone does you hear a million commentaries on this kind of thing? It is what it is. It's two thousand nineteen. Nothing's changing. This is the culture. So it's like, I think the young people need to learn to manage it. I mean, I try to manage it do next your bed for you. Go to sleep. Yeah. I try not to. Yeah. I do. I don't have a watcher alarm clock by design. Laziness. You know, it's interesting Justice morning. I saw this report about Giselle who I guess is this book coming out about her panic attacks and her suicidal thoughts about deploying yourself balcony, somewhere Kabo or something and. This is why I think that this podcast is important is talking to successful people. And here you have Zell here have you at the top of your game. And and yet we feel these feelings we feel like a failure. Because we have this depression or suicidal thoughts, and it's it's still very much covered up and swept under the rug. And I think again shining light on it and talking about it. How do we get through this? How do we get past these failures? I think is a super important thing. I mean, it's hopefully what we learned from our parents if they had the sensitive. It's like you pick your bootstraps up and you keep moving it's always in your business in Hollywood fashion aging. I think can be seen as failure age out. I know it's definitely not as bad as it used to be. Well, I don't even think it's that. I mean, I was just telling one of my other friends Chander who is a model, and we came up together. I was just telling her like, it's interesting. Do you feel like you're not looked out on the street as much anymore? That's nothing to do with modeling. This is just a person eight. Yeah. This is the human right? I mean, you I don't know this everything. Yes. You to everyone does it's different. There's not that you feel invisible. But it's just it's just different not, I don't believe aging failure. I think it's being celebrated and glorified now because they need going along with normal size models. Not all these. He's very thin girls tapping into reality the customer the real world, you know, eighty percent is not that fantasy size. So they had to sort of raise the bar like higher normal sized people. I think it's amazing. I love it and the aging thing it's I mean, the boomers need product. So we sell to the boomers and older the baby boomers and the boomers ain't young the, you know, the mooners my mom, so I feel like the advertising in the economy has again, raise the bar to them in a way because that's our customer. You know, fashion is become a small niche, the true fashion is more of to me. I've you as a complete art very very expensive. Art, I feel like things are getting Hutcheon is a little bit to fashion runway shows designs in the nineties when I was doing the most of my work, the fashion work. It was there was a prestige about it. But there was no social media and internet was just starting. So. Models transcended editorial the high fashion in the commercial now, it's it's it's more categorized. You've been through a lot of changes in this business. Well, yeah, I mean, the whole nineties I think it was the last era of the like bona fide supermodels, right? It was K is included in that Kate moss. Naomi Campbell, Christy Turlington. Well, really who it was was Naomi Campbell, Christy. Turlington Linda, Evangelista and. I think again, what shifted everything. Oh, no. This is what she that everything magazines and beauty campaigns decided to start using celebrities on every cover of every magazine. This was the major major shift toward the late nineties movie stars. Yes. And they started doing selling the perfumes the make up and they're on a cover of everything in. There was no place for the supermodels. And because they sold the Mazey's better. Clearly, there were some weird shift that happened 'cause they had a blockbuster film out on the cover of vogue now that magazine sold better. Apparently when they wanna keep kept doing it. So got to the point where you go to the newsstand, and there was no models celebrities and the shift really started happening, then and I think that also fed into this idea of beauty beauty is within. I of the beholder because actresses are pretty but the supermodels like a freak of nature their beauties weird. It's so beautiful. It's weird. Right. I think that the celebrities coming in. We're not as pretty but they were being made up. They had the best glam teams. They were beautiful on these covers in China. I think that that then also filtered into beauty is many different things, you know. And then coupled with social media everything shifted because then you have people have their own platform to get a million followers that we don't even know you, and I probably twenty people that we have no idea who they are who have a million followers more than twenty. We have no idea and all the sudden people could be their own boss, and, you know, be their own PR agents through all this social media. And and again that whole term of influencers came and branding for expert like. I'm just talking about the shifts because then also advertisers wanted to see people that were brand experts. So they didn't want a pretty model to sell that blow dryer they wanted the the celebrity hairstylist to. So that blow dryer, you know, and sort of started diluting, the whole supermodel thing and it fell off. And then in my opinion, what ended up happening is everyone started focusing on Victoria secret as like the supermodel platform, which before that was a little section of it. But the Munis fashions a high, you know, it's. Costume talent. I mean, these people that are producing this is incredibly talented. But did you just different? Did you not gallons? It's g-strings. Okay. Did you regret the movie stars? Who are on the covers of? Oh. And I was a little angry about that. I was like they're stealing our platform. Yeah. I was the shift is everywhere. Yeah. But it also helps with this democratization where the average person you get a millions followers on if I don't mean average person, but he's about marketing and social media and how you handle that. Now, you do that. Yeah. It's not so much about your interaction with your followers, and all these crazy things. So you still do magazine stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I do a lot of advertising commercial work. Catalogs dot com. What about the gig economy? You know, we're both freelance you have downtime sometimes. Yes. And that brings up feelings for me. I'm not punching a clock. How do you deal with that? I call my agents harping on them. I get a screen shot for the next two months to see if there's anything on my schedule in my chart, so I have some hope and also so I have some reality. It's a reality. Check. But I've done this for so long have done this for over twenty five years I've been freelance. So it's just kind of in my my being I don't stress too much about it. No, it's comedy cycles at this point in time. If you had a second chance at life, and I literally have because the other path almost did kill me, and I've gained some wisdom and been able to by the grace of God secure myself a little bit with finances. So if in fact things are going to turn that way, they're going to turn that way. But I don't really have fear about it. Because like I've today so I can do something else that I'm not gonna starve because I've made some discipline around my finances how much she think fear plays a part of how we deal with failure. I think it plays a big part because we care about what people think and we care about how we look. So what do you say to a fifteen year old boy or girl who's feeling like they failed for whatever reason? And now, what do you say to them never give up and don't let this define you. And don't give so much power. Because if you if you let the kids let fifteen year old they're speaking of. Goes for everyone. But if we let a failure. I mean, okay, let it take the wind out of your sales for like a week. Okay. But seven days bring yourself back up and try again, or and also learn from it, maybe you were seeking something that you're not cut out to do accept it. You gotta give it has given us each talents and abilities as strive with those, you know, and it doesn't mean that those are going to be easy to achieve. But you know, like learn I mean can't we learn from our failures. I think that's huge. I love the learn from our failures give it a week. Well on a big person fill your feelings, feel it process it deal with it. Because otherwise it's gonna come out gain twenty pounds lose twenty pounds drinks tequila getting a car wreck. It's like deal with deal with it feel like cry about it getting. Angry about it. But I think learn from it. I mean, it's just it's just like I said, I don't think it's a an end to anything. I don't think I think it's a beginning. It's a beginning failures beginning you tried. We have to try. I think it's easier. I think it definitely. And I wanna hear your thoughts on this. I think it gets easier as we age when quote unquote, failure happens. That's why I think there's no magic bullet to say to an adolescent. Here's what you do with your failure pickers off up give it seven days. Right. It's true and taking it back up, and we as a dealt have that feeling I had that visceral reaction to what I perceived as a failure. But I also have other things that kick in that helped me get through that moment, and that's harder for for young people for it is for people to turn that around like that. It's their world. Yeah. I think like is giving them examples of famous successful people. I'm sure you have some from doing this podcast that have had tremendous failure. But nothing stopped them. That's a good way to end it. Thank you so much Barry doing this. Really? Appreciate it. Thank you. Hey, thanks so much for listening to art of failure. I hope you'll join us again special. Thanks to cale fuss. -ment Sally Sanborn Noah Samborn Friedman Musi Friedman, my agents at CESD, Anita Billy, Donna and Sam John MaGee and maranda Schaefer, Joanna Pinto. My mom, sunny sisters, Marci Michelle who witnessed many early failures. Thanks, Barry Friedman, so much for our music and special. Thanks to everyone out there who is experienced failure at keeps moving forward. That's what we need to do. Let's remember that Winston Churchill defines success as the ability to move from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm staying through Ciaston, keep moving and I'll see next time. Thanks for listening.

Christy Turlington Peter Lindbergh Momo Paris Paris Steve Friedman Barry Friedman berry Smith Claire glamour Oregon Naomi Campbell depression Steven Klein L Laurie Moller Pacific Winston Churchill Asia Giselle
In VOGUE: The 1990s  |  Episode 1: The Rise of The Supermodel

Vogue Podcast

27:14 min | 11 months ago

In VOGUE: The 1990s | Episode 1: The Rise of The Supermodel

"One of the most pivotal moments in early ninety s fashion happened at John even thought she's nine hundred, hundred, one full runway show and I was lucky enough to be there. Johnny were showing with almost every other Italian designer in Milan showing it a space the. You kind of arrive to nine am show and you leave the APM show and it was pretty sold destroying way to experience clothing. You were lucky if you could find a kind of stale Anini, an indifference. Spread to get you through the day, the seats were very much assigned and there was absolute hierarchy, and that point I was the fashion director of Harper's and Queen. So I think I would have been in the front row. The. Front row by the way, we'll know the most prestigious place to sit was by no means the most convenient place to see or experience a runway. The the runways damn will always high-rise. So you're already looking up goals nostril. So the show Linda Evangelista opened the show and a short little black shift in these kind of fetish boots. Little bit simpler for Johnny this. New Decade vibe kind of leggings and a little shift dress says. She kind of fetish booth. Then of course, some amazing print moment. I always had some. Paper notebooks and I did very very elaborate sketches. A peach came down the runway ninety sketches but pretty detailed, and then I would write in additional notes of color and I write down the the go. That's Yasmine the ball. southastern. Gail Elliott. Classical. Print. Thin. Dave. Niamey causeway many dress with Lorden yellow. Jacket. So I was sitting there furiously sketching in my notebook every look that came down. And then Suddenly, I heard the opening strains of freedom on Janis runway. connick believed music. And it was like this electric. Had charged through the room. Evangelists came out in a very short flirty read kind of align mini-dress than Christie came out in a black version with a different neckline Niamey came out in a singing chrome yellow version, and finally Cindy Crawford. Again, and you know each having singly come out then they came out on over shoulder lip synching the words and kind of reliving that moment and then, and then really everyone's just like great. It was a real. Energizing. Zeitgeist fashion. And as I watched from my vantage point in the crowd, I realized that I found myself in the epicenter of fashion world at a moment when everything was changing. And what Johnny understood in what the rest of the fashion industry came to understand was that these supermodels they were symbol and an even a vehicle of that change. The fashion industry was floating into the mainstream this world that had been so exclusive and exclusion rate was now opening up. And of course, the moment that door opened jar and people could see kind of magical world through the slither in the open doorway. They wanted to break the door down. Welcome. To invoke the nine thousand, nine, hundred, ninety s cost about a pivotal time that. A. New Era in fashion and in culture. Join us as we examined the defining moments of the decade that shape fashion. As we know it today, we'll hear from fashion leaders, cultural icons and vogues own editor. Oriel team I'm on a winter and I'm Hamish Bowles Votes, international editor at large and your host. Modeling used to be a very different sort of profession. There was this dichotomy between runway models and print models. I mean literally the Cavaco's literally he. The African covered at that point they only needed to be fabulous from the neck up. And then you had you know runway models they had this turtle runway allure. Of course, always great looking maybe cover face that they had striking runway presents. So. There was an expectation that they would have perfect symmetrical voters that were easy for the krause people to fact from today's perspective way kind of now happily inured to the idea of body diversity on a runway. It's. Required. A different focus in prison to look back at the ages and realized that the runway body paradigm particularly for the Haute Couture Design Esus handcrafted clothing was. A A a symmetrical. FOCUSED COOKIE A. Norm and mold. You know there was a very, very particular cultivated runway walk the runway. Specific models knew how to do, which was you know I kind of S-? Lincoln. A twelve and Tan. They would walk down they turned it back. Twenty Goodman is sustainability editor and was fashion editor in the ninety S. Were completely vital that was what their job was as a mannequin for the clothes they were. Living Mannequins that could move and that could display whether the drape worked and so pride of place really was given to the clients designers that were considered sort of dress makers to the third set. They had that prominent clients in the front row. They'd all be immaculately dressed in head to toe outfits from the designers last. At houses like do. She for instance, it was almost like informal modeling in department store but of course, amplified to a very glamorous level with the occasional cameo from a print star like Imam or Jerry Hall. The might be music and A. Home Tannoy voiceover announcing the dresses And it would say numeral. Number one numerous. Then the buys the audience would be frantically scribbling down the numbers of the dresses that they want to by cross referencing the programs that have been put left on their seats for them. To the shows took forever because you're looking every straw of what was presenting. It. Wasn't a convention to in in almost any magazine that I know of to identify the models lead Baretti person is vogues archive editor. If they were identified, it was usually in the credits. So for insiders, they might have that knowledge, but the job was to present the close just like the runway models. They they generally aren't identified the job of Montreal was to show close, but by the end of the eighties that all started to change. The birth of the super model for me was linked with two of British folk year apart Mark Holgate Vogue Fashion News Director I was a student at the University of Northumbria and I was bored and I was like I'm going to buy this copy of folk to read it was a January. Nineteen, thousand nine edition British folk and it had Linda Evangelista and the cover Linda Evangelista haircut helped propel her into fame. She was the one that had the short boyish haircut. With the most typing. But then she started to do was she changed her hair color. From being Brunette to platinum blonde to being a redhead and she chose to do was she chose to debut those new hair covers on different covers of vote and that was I think the first moment I had this connection with I guess a fashion model and their appeal could transcend the cover and Costa being something that touched the lives of people in everyday life before she became a fashion designer. Or even a spice go Victoria Beckham remembers the influence supermodels had her I mean Linda was always my favorite supermodel can imagine my excitement Garin hairdresser in New York. That used to cut Linda's hair. He was the hairdresser the my little tiny pixie haircut that I had, which was very exciting probably exciting for me than it was the him. Linda. Evangelista like, Oh my God Garin a high fashion has stylist. There is no rules as far as it came to hair Linda went blond and then Linda went red head and all my clients were so impressed by having all these young fashion models and this'll on they all requesting haircuts, women taking these dives and going. If she can wear it. What's the trick Tartu imagined in today's? Well, this was something that was a major obsession. These women became more than just blank faces that stared out at us from a magazine Cover magazine page we got to know their names, Naomi, Campbell Linda, Evangelista Tatyana Potisk Christy Turlington. Cindy Crawford they were starting to appear also in British folk to Italian Vogue to American vogue. Playing different characters across these different issues in different kinds of narratives in different depictions. Somehow they were also themselves. All of these girls had. Great personality, and they also had great understanding of character and how they could transform themselves into different characters and one of the photographers who really took advantage of that was Peter Lindbergh. He really allowed them to be actors. One of the first stories that Peter and I did together was Naomi Campbell as a gauguin. Painting. We went down to Jamaica and we did that shoot. So the opportunity to do cultural references, art references that came up a lot here Lemberg y'all funded outdoor shoots or location shoots. So there is a sort of fresh air nece to his work, but there was also a cinematic quality his women were often. Moving and happy and there is an idea of natural beauty. It wasn't about a lot of makeup. It was the fresh natural beauty, some sort of connection with nature but seen through cinematic. Not Hitchcock Ian, but like sort of a classic frame like a still shot from a film often. Cut to a year later, the January one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety, cover a black and white cover Linda Evangelista Christy Turlington and Tatyana potisk Naomi Campbell and Cindy Crawford. Now, not in some fantasy setting, there are no. You know looking like they've got incredibly elaborate hair and makeup and jewels on they look quite natural. The hair is kind of not overly done. They don't like wearing a ton a makeup there in jeans with these talks. Of being a snapshot kloss photo of five of the most important models of the moment, and again, it was that moment of both anticipate. Really kind of it really hit home I think in a major way. That snapshot also caught the eye of another important thicker and he would propel supermodels into the stratosphere. More after the break. Allure. Do I really need to wear sunscreen. WanNa. Make my pores smaller. I M Michelle Lee the editor in chief Galore and I'm Jenny by executive beauty director here at a lower were always been questions about how to choose the right experience or conditioner or serum. So we started a podcast about it the science of beauty. We'll be learning all about what to do and what not to do to stay looking your best tune into the science of beauty. Annapolis, podcast spotify wherever you get your podcasts. In one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety, one, George Michael was everywhere. He was a major pop popstar coming off the success of his latest single faith that had been a huge hit on MTV back in one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy. George Michael Station he was a cultural icon working on his eagerly anticipated upcoming album but at that point, he felt that he was already overexposed and to become disillusion from the precious that pain brought so much. So in fact that when it came time to make the music video for his latest single freedom ninety, he refused to be in the video he was living a life as an idol. That was probably conflicted. You're always supposed to be on your always supposed to be beautiful. You're supposed to conform to the societal norms even if it's not true to yourself and how'd you break out of that when you're living in public will people even accept it if you if you do he hadn't come out at this point and I think in a way, this was a song of rebellion. Don He wanted to be free. But how can you be free when you're a celebrity? So he chose the supermodel says. What did George Michael WanNa free of what is the model look like when they're not a model. It was going to be a Linda Evangelista was gonna be Naomi Campbell it's going to be Christy Toddington. Tatyana tits and Cindy Crawford. Camilla Nickerson is a contributing editor. had. An extra and Queen. She'd been my sister went to. A, very talented editor in her own right and I knew that she got this Gig to George. Michael. Single and and that it was with the supermodels I didn't know what was being off. I didn't know early while I was doing a again very very luckily that probably somebody else had been asked but was got sick or something like it was purely. Just, totally chunks that Aiko Ost I'd never really been to film studio. So I walked into this room that was to site with all these stories and David finch serum. He kind of showed me these storyboards never seen a story but would but pretended I had. Christie to walk alone white sheet made of Irish linen but it needed to be one hundred foot long. And that was my budget gone right there. So the rest had to be like from my couplet. Two weeks later went to an old. Hangar and and it was like two caravans one for the girls and one for the boys tiny and then we get the girls dressed in there and You definitely knew who Michael was at the time I mean he was there on set. He was his much. He was a creative PA until the Gulshan in. All coming guy though huge personalities. So you know there I'm dress they're not super moguls. nope. Film stars that themselves to sing the guzzles proxy lines and China saying, let's say so. Navy's my boyfriend's big. Linda pulls by slatter over ahead it a it was great. It was so great. The music video was. Shot in. CPI Black and White Ninja Evangelist has discovered lips in King George's lyrics while sitting cross legged on the bare wooden floor of shabby apartment Cindy, Crawford, lip synching whilst naked in a bathtub Naomi's lip synching framed in the doorway. I mean, they were in the psych abandoned house seemingly no heat in like an oversized sweater. I. Think it's important to say that as glamorous as the supermodels are they weren't depicted as glamorous in the video I, mean besides their natural glamour to me, it shows the a more intimate domestic kind of feeling to the video. So feels. More vulnerable. You know. Here's here's the thing when I was a model, the thing that was clear to me is the generosity that model had the have in their DNA. And these girls were so generous with what they could put force. And they did it with freedom I mean if it if you needed to be vulnerable, you were able to to portray it to project it. If you needed to be harder, you could do that you. You could run the gamut of. DIFFERENT EMOTIONS That would have a resonance with whoever was watching you or you know looking at an image of you. Looking back I think that MTV generation, the fact that we were all tuning in there was this new medium that fused fashion in music. It was exciting. It was new people were watching everywhere. So I felt like pop culture sort of lifestyle was aspirational the idea of being on the concord and partying with Donatello for Saatchi and being able to wear anything you want but because they had personality. It was more like being a fan of musician are banned or connector. You had a new audience the music videos MTV had a music driven audience that was then entertained by video, but this brought in a whole new community to start watching a music video, which was the fashion community, and I think that that absolutely opened a huge door for anybody who wanted to take advantage of having this. Adjunct audience get tacked onto what they were trying to do. The crossover, a fashion and music began to really become something that you saw played out day in day out video in video on MTV, and that's in a huge way down to George. Michael's freedom nine hundred. I mean everyone in the fashion community love the video because it was this idea of high style fashion shoot and the idea that I'll will was kind of being co opted by George Michael and the supermodels they just started to become more present in the culture they were lip synching to. A song was being sung by George. Michael, through this incredible became an incredibly kind of iconic and groundbreaking and influential music video. It was a kind of case of starting to join the dots and kind of see these women start to pop up in different aspects of the culture. You know you're like, okay. There are now in a show on a magazine cover, and now they're being photographed at a party or now you're seeing them in an ad campaign. Goals really were it. Now in the ninety s fashion has ushered in the superstar. Glamorous high. Everywhere. They were ubiquitous I mean. On the side of my boss there on the cover of every magazine inside every magazine who needs a new supermodel they were doing TV commercials for the new supermodel. Some of trying to break into movies you WANNA watch headline news. Not GonNa kill you. They were the very hottest fashion commodities. Joanie for Thaci was. A designer who was uniquely attuned to the Cultural Zeitgeist. All about folding music and rock and roll into is clothing and movie stars and artists, and he was somebody who could absolutely see the moment sees Zeitgeist and tailor it to his own aesthetic a very kind of powerful way and of course, for Saatchi had always been using these girls in his ad campaigns. But this was a total synergy that all the girls who'd been in that video came down the runway embodying Janis. Vision. Joanie was unusually media savvy because he was a perfect show man and he understood how to kind of manipulate emotions through fashion and the way he presented his collection. So when that freedom soundtrack rang out and the goals came down kind of. Long it was just so amazing first of all because they looked so. When you saw that? They could maneuver their way down and runway they could walk which wasn't necessarily a given, but it was. Electrifying. So, it was an interesting collision of all sorts of different kinds of fame. You had the fame of George, Michael you had the fame of Gianni Versace and you defame of the supermodels. All kind of coalescing into one major kind of pop cultural moment. And that was really for me. That was sort of the moment where you realized this was going to be the kind of dominating hours of these models were supermodels, and of course the. Photography's went crazy because they knew that they had photographs these girls they were going to be sure fire sellers. There wasn't a social media. The was no instagram snapchat. There was none of these things was no means to actually be a reminded of their their presence on a daily basis designers in particular became aware of the fact that these girls were personalities as well as models and that the their personality in your clothes gave. More of a message. It wasn't just. I'm going to show this to you. So you can buy it or you can not buy you can like it. You can't like it but all the sudden you had a personality that was. Delivering how you could wear these clothes and who you would be when you wore those close these girls were worth their weight because they contributed to the image. Significantly. and. That's why they were who they were. That's that's why they got that attention. They were credible. They had their own lives that revolved around fashion. They were devoted to it. They understood it they collaborated with it and they they really really important. I mean, what happened was they were also smart enough to realize that they themselves had a role and a power in shaping fashion, and they had some agency of their own in continuing to be part of the fashion landscape. The supermodels came like an industry. As. They sometimes do five shows a day they weekly salaries can quickly time to six. At that point, those four models we're doing everything. They've really helped foster an identity for fashion wasn't what it could be an shift in fashion but the supermodels they were part of that shift on this edition of House of style. We traveled to Milan Italy for the spring ninety three collections and spend the week with the only Campbell both on and off the runway as fashion became a bigger interest and became. Part of a bigger cultural narrative. Suddenly, you started to see because of the way that fashion operates and it goes in cycles and it gets sated by one thing, and then that's looking to the new thing to inject. Difference or you know some sense of unison to creative process than other narratives were starting to kind of come in. Then you person then you face that you design the you think that that is counter to the gloss in the fame and the success the question the fashion industry is asking other models of worth the money they get especially in these times of recession who does their high profile detract from the very closest I kind of feeling that the opulence to conspicuous consumption were somehow inappropriate for the moment and out of step with the vibe of the moment, and then you're saying kind of different way to approach fashion and suddenly. All that Razzmatazz and GLITZ and. Extravagance and money and he's just An oculus seemed wrong. And then you had. GRUNGE and everything changed. Invoke the nineteen nineties is presented by a winter and produced by Jasmin Galera Julia Toil, Kinsey Clark, and Talk Zan. Our executive. Producer is Alex Koppelman. Mixed by rain house monk would you cheese folks creative aditorial direct TUB and folks to`real team is led Borelli Person Ma colgate Nicole Phelps and myself. Special. Thanks to digital DIRECTA analysts. Vice President of audio Jewish Hsien and Anna wintom. Please do subscribe to the podcast. It helps Unisys find the show you can find additional information, incredible imagery and episode references in the show notes or bogue dot com slash podcast. I'm your host Hamish Bowles until next week in bio.

Naomi Campbell Cindy Crawford Linda Evangelista George Michael editor Campbell Linda George Johnny MTV Evangelista Tatyana Potisk Chr Hamish Bowles Peter Lindbergh Christie director executive Linda Evangelista Christy Turl Saatchi Gail Elliott John Dave
FTP098: John Vervaeke - Overcoming The Meaning Crisis

Future Thinkers Podcast

58:48 min | 2 years ago

FTP098: John Vervaeke - Overcoming The Meaning Crisis

"Hey, and welcome to future thinkers dot org. Hot cast about the evolution of technology society and consciousness. I might Mike you'll end in a you've even ova if you new to the show, and you wanna get a list of our favorite books, popular episodes, and to join our community, go to future thinkers dot org slash start. Off feature thinkers, episodes are now in video to watch supreme year each episode and joined the discussion live subscribe to our YouTube channel at future thinkers that org slash YouTube. Hey guys, welcome back to the show and the next two episodes. Our guest is John for Vicki a lecturer in the university of Toronto in the department of psychology cognitive science, and Buddhist psychology. He's the author of the book zombies in western culture. A twenty first century crisis John's excellent lecture series called awakening from the meaning crisis was recommended to us by Jordan, green hall, and inspired us to invite him on the show in this first part of the interview we talk about the meaning crisis. What it is how, and why emerged and what are some of the practices and solutions to deal with it. You can find all the links and show notes from this episode by going to future thinkers dot org slash ninety eight and the second part of this interview will be available at future thinkers dot org slash ninety-nine. Once it goes live in about a week or so enjoy. Check out our new course in personal. Evolution. Art, one is on cultivating, sovereignty, and is designed to support you in developing more clarity about your direction and purpose in life making better decisions, and having more agency to live your life on your own terms, partout is on integrating, the shadow and is designed to support you in overcoming nihilism and tapping into inner source of energy, creativity and wisdom to make meaningful progress towards actualising your full potential. To learn more, go to courses that future thinkers dot org. John, welcome to the show. Thank you for being here. Thank you from vitamin pleasure to be here. So we've been diving into your content, quite a lot the last few weeks, there is a lot of it out there. And one thing, I'm hoping to do in this conversation is to kind of break down some of the more complex subjects and starting with the meeting crisis because that's kind of the, the central theme behind everything. So can you do the old explain like I'm five explanation of the meaning crisis? If possible. Sure. So the meeting crisis has sort of two components Stewart. What you might call a scientific congressman examination of sort of perennial problems that human consciousness, Klugman she falls into an investigation of what it call cyclic are were addressing those and then historical analysis of why we don't have a world view that helps point out. Develop cultivate guide. I'll create an ecology of these technologies to address the problems. So we're sort of bereft of what many cultures have traditionally had in responding to these Brennan problems. And so the perennial problems get exacerbated very deeply in and you and then you, you can see that expressed and a lot of what I would what Chris masterpiece myself, call the symptomology of the meeting crisis. You've you getting increases especially although worldwide because of the reduction of poverty suicide is going down and see it going up in North America. Parts of Europe, going up dramatically amongst young people. The child suicide rate United States doubled in the last ten years. So now cutting out of Snell has even sewn some recent research, which I think is very important as most people think of this, as you know, you, there's sort of a cognitive, cultural structural problems than, than you get sort of, right? Depressed? And then the depression drives you into suicide now that, of course, is the case because the depression can drive you to meaninglessness. But she showed independent, independent of people becoming clinically depressed meaninglessness itself can drive, you ought to suicide, and that, that really votes saves a sort of verifies, there comes old argument about Annemie, and the breakdown of a normative, you know, narrative normal logical structure for your society chameleon, pre suicide, of course, you had any, you have the increased rates up oppression of anxiety. You have increase in, in loneliness, and all the various effects. And what's interesting is the research, also says the opposite that people who have meaning in life are inoculated against all of these things. So the more meaning in life, you have the less chance you will fall into suicide, the less chance that you will experience sort of alienating. So you've got all of that happening. You got the addiction crisis. And I think Mark Lewis is work really goes to show that, that are that our old model that addiction is just like a liquor disease that you have a chemical inside of you and it compels you act in a certain way is actually mistaken in a lot of ways. And so, and Marcus our colleague and friend of mine, but he's is one of the premier researchers on this, and I and I was just out of conference last year with a lot of people are coming to this consensus that we shouldn't see addiction in that sort of disease, compulsion model because it doesn't explain the data really well, and it's also led to a really ineffective prohibition practice, which is not affective, instead, what you see addiction as is what he calls reciprocal, narrowing your world starts to narrow and then that reduces your cognitive flexibility. And then that makes you world narrow your, your sort of the options impossibilities. And then that makes you start to get sort of a. Scarcity mentality and that limits of cognition easy. What happened you get this reciprocal, narrow until the world loses its possibilities, and you lose your possibilities of who. And what you can be right. And that, of course, is, again, right? The happens in its response to obviously, there are a Domus understanding of this huge socio economic reasons driving addiction behavior and all I'm not denying. But what I'm what, what Mark's work is showing is that there is an important, meaning making system. That's failing in addiction, and therefore, we can see the meaning crisis as contributing and exacerbating to that. You can see what's being called the virtual exodus, that more and more people, you know, there's books like reality is broken, and things like that, that people are exiting the real world into the virtual world because the virtual world has what they perceived the real world is lacking. The virtual world has normal logical structure. It's rule bound rules are clear. Everything makes sense. There's a narrative structure. I am. I'm heroically placed in a story and there's a story for the whole world and everything has a grand purpose. And I'm you find in it and there's a normative structure. I know how to level and transcend and get better. And so those, those three orders are so lacking in our world view that people get a seriously drawn into the virtual world the virtual world also has it is addictive because it's a place, that's designed to create the flow state, which is also contributory to meaning making meaning in life. And people are generally lacking, you know, the, the opportunity, the guidance to cultivate the flow state in their own lives. And, and, and sweaters means is for many people me. So people don't realize is the number of people that have mystical experiences, even awaken experiences are cultures much higher than is generally acknowledged by, I guess the popular media, our, the folks, I called you, you know, wrap it hovers around forty percent and that the. The problem is, if people have these, and they do not have a framework, if they did not have to things that they're not have a conceptual framework that tells them how to integrated into their lives. And if they do not have a set of well developed cycle technological skills for dealing with self-deception, these anomalous experiences can really, you know, mess them up and be deleterious, and that's unfortunate because the research shows if they could be properly responded to these mystical experiences. We just ran an experiment in my lab, where if you have more mystical experiences, right? The more meaningful, you'll find your life, but that is actually significantly improved. If you have a religious orientation, not a specific one just a religious orientation for you know, incorporating an integrating that in July. And then the research shows, the, you know, getting another people across many measures do get better in their lives objectively, and that's something, I'm very interested in you see that people are trying. Trying to take individual meaning systems of meaning local systems of meaning and try to get it to do what religion used to do religion us to be a comprehensive meta meeting system. Right. The connected you in these three orders and, you know, sort of grounded any individual meaning system at, and I'm not advocating for return to religion is trying to explain something right? And religion was deepen that lead it reached into all the different kinds of knowing deeper than just our proposition. Omega reached into our skill knowledge. We indoor perspect- Powell knowing it reached into that, that, that, that deed, participatory knowing in which how we model ourselves and how we model the world according to these three orders fit together. So very it was very deep. It was very comprehensive. It gave you a synoptic integration across many demands of your life and then within that you would have individual meetings systems. Here's a legal system is moral system, right? Here's a work system and then his political system, and what's happened for historic reasons. People are trying to take individual systems, and they're trying to make them do the work that religion used to do like a political system and ideology, you get, you know, our people take a particular commitment to a fantasy world Star Wars, and they tried to blow it up into something that will do this work, and they can't do it now that shades into things that I think are, are also, I wouldn't call them symptoms in the negative sense, but their responses, you see, of course, the rise of the mindfulness revolution. There's criticisms of that. But nevertheless, there's mindfulness revolution. There's the psychedelics revolution. There is the authentic discourse revolution. There is the intellectual deep web like you guys revolution, right? There are people out there trying to bring back the this procedural knowing like people are trying to integrate, you know, hardcore like we've Kelly Parker and ritual and storytelling to give people a much more. Comprehensive transformative said a practices. You got all of these things happening. And I think those are sort of more positive indications that people are deeply deeply searching. So while research is very clear that post religious is, is increasing to rise, and it's rising rapidly. There's also that doesn't mean on the research doesn't show that people are not hungry for meaning and trying to find it in various ways. So what's, I think what's happening is like I said, people have perennial problems of sprinting absurdity and Zayed's alienate falling into spare. At some point, we can talk about why that might be the case they have to deal with self-deception in their life. They have to deal with a need to transcend and and develop. So they're looking if you'll allow me word they're looking for wisdom. Right. And they don't have they don't have anywhere to go. All right. They got lots of information they got not of knowledge, but they don't have any sort of clear understanding about wisdom ears. How to cultivate it who can be a trustworthy guide to etc. And so people are often said, they either suffered these negative symptoms. They're starting to search in the positive system, but day, many people are sort of stuck in a in a very dangerous place, which is sort of auto deductive trying to cobble together a set of responses to this. And sometimes it works, but the problem with being an by, of course, is that it, we really, really exacerbates your tendencies toward self deceptive behavior. You can sort of echo chamber yourself. And of course, the problem with social media is just allows that to be rightly accelerated a magnified, and so you can get Echeverri that oughta that Akkad process than very quickly become twisted. And so that's what I would say would we are suffering right now? We're suffering sort of for historical reasons we've lost that worldview to men. I, we have a scientific worldview in which we. We don't fit into that scientific over were deeply were deeply alienated from it. So we lacked the three orders in a profound way ones. The people are looking for in video games. We lack wisdom institutions relaxed sort of a comprehensive philosophy of you allow me to broaden that term of how to what wisdom is cultivated of a now again, one of the symptoms positive symptoms. I guess of Munich recipe the intense interest both in the public at large in wisdom. People are turning, you know, trying to bring back stoicism various aspects of Buddhism, and even academe the study of mindfulness study of wisdom, I participate in both of these are now really hot and important topics in psychology and augments science. The neuro science on people, and there's a huge economic interest in altered states of consciousness, and how that in acts on mission and character development. So I argue that you can make good sense of all of this. This by positing that year in a meaning crisis. Now that meeting crisis flits us into a very profound existential, scarcity mode that, that can really limit our ability to respond to the other significant challenges were facing right now. I now those things reinforce each other. We get a sense of doom that reinforces the meeting crisis because of meeting crisis very much. Hamstrings us from the, the fundamental transformative created reactivity. We're going to need to respond to the issues that we're facing. And I hope that was hope that was excessive I think I was one of the best definitions of her to give us. So it's that's perfect. It brings the question this. So you're talked about all of the different potential solutions that people are engaging announced seems like one giant buffet. Do you see any kind of one track or like a four course meal that people can go through where there's, like something that's working at a higher percentage than than just kind of ala carte? So. So I think I think, so, I think people who sorted, it's hard to answer this for getting into some of the technicalities, I, I think people who are addressing the multiple kinds of knowing at right? Even if they're doing it intuitively bike, if they're, they're doing something that's really getting back into the procedural respectable and participatory ongoing really tap into a sense of ignition and punches, MRs being easily embodied deeply embedded dynamically coupled to the environment in half we self organizing dynamical, and so they're doing sets of practices that, you know, that might might be training consciousness mindfulness practices training up of the prestige prestigious knowing the interaction line, through a some kind of movement practice that their training proposition knowing by cultivating skills of grooving rationality, where rationality for me, does not simply mean, being more logical rationale. -ality means to cultivate systematic. Meaning very across many domains of your life and reliable processes for dealing with self-deception. I think that's much more comprehensive important than just, you know, using good Silla justic reasoning, which I think while a piece of influential Rach, first of all, it's only a piece of influential rush rationality rationality, all, and it's only a piece of influential rush lobby there's much more you have to do so you can be very logical, and still be in very Pete senses terrifically self deceptive. And I think that is not what the ancient notion of rationality is precise. So, so, for example, in addition to learning logic, you, would you should learn. I mean, this is what Tisdale than other people's research is showing you should learn how to integrate mindfulness practices was things like cvt practices. We are doing that much more d you know, investigation of your tendency towards cognitive bias in, for example. Yes, learn some logic Mead about reasoning but don't just don't just do it monologue eater. That's another thing where it's. So people need to get into. Yes, but any good reasoning should be set within, you know dialogue. How do I dial with other people and can I make the dialogue, right? The joint learning the joint inquiry supersede any desire to wear or crush, this whole model of rationality is demolishing, the bunket like me. I am so critical of that I it angers me and sometimes even though out some of the videos, I apologize, but it angers me because it's such bullying, and it's such bullying that it's actually misrepresenting seriously misrepresenting the court of what rationality is our should do for us. So I think if people are cultivating rationality, very comprehensively, right in that includes the mindfulness, not that leaves the interactional snuck when I see people trying to tap into all the kinds of knowing in an integrated way directed comprehensively towards overcoming a self-deception and affording people. A framework for cultivating and integrating transfer fundamental transformations of consciousness hug mission. Right. Character and Unitas ability to commune with others. Like that's that's the four course meal. I think you look, there's a really good term for this, the kind of integrating different ways of knowing the world and overcoming self-deception Jordan, green hall calls as cognitive sovereignty. Yes. And Jordan IRA have entered into a dialogue together. We've we had a, a of really wonderful informal conversation, and then we get one for rebel wisdom. It's, it's, it's out in available a we're going to have another one along to one a ninety minute one. We're gonna film at the beginning of July and I'm also hoping to meet with Jordan in person a little bit later into like they'll be at a conference in San Diego. And he's there, so, yes. I and I'm, I'm, I'm actually going to sort. Sort of a, an authentic discourse circling event tonight to try and, like, I'm, I'm reading about it, and I'm doing some work with Peter Lindbergh on this. Yeah. And then on Tron Peter not going together. Thank I wanted. I'm trying to want to understand it as a participant odds obser- of observer. But I also want, I want to be able to sort of bring some of guess, for lack of a better word the theoretical machinery, I have to bear on it and try and develop it. So I'm reading the literature as well as just engaging in the practice. So I I find. Sort of deeply interesting, what Jordan is doing. An and I've, I've been trying to play on to some people because some people, and I want to be shuttled to my readers coming with sincerity and honesty. But they're saying, like, what, what do you see in this car? Right. Into what he's not saying very much, and I'm trying to say, no, no, no. Don't pay attention to what he said. That's that's I mean that's not focal. Right. It for its how he saying it. He's trying to he's trying to write. He's finally exemplified a different way of, you know of inhabiting your own consciousness and cognition and then inhabiting communication, and, you know, and knowing that in the and I will say to read, as you know, you'll say, well, I know that, yes, you know, that you should be doing. That's not the same knowing how yes, viewer and knowingly went up to like to do it. Yes. Exactly. Right. And so, so I when I when I when I'm talking with Joel, I mean Jordan wants to talk to me about the content of my series. Is he thinks highly of it, and I thank him for that. He's, he's recommended very strongly. But right. We do talk about that content. But I'm also very much interested in, in like how he's doing what he's doing, and how he sees that as a kind of response to meeting crisis, which is clearly what he believes because he said that to me on multiple occasions. So, yeah, it abating with him. I think is something that, well, it's begun. And I see it to something that's going to continue. Yeah. There's just going to add that the practical aspect of how do we actually do it is very important, because, you know, in academia, there might be some ideas about how to kind of how to deal with the meeting crisis. But then putting it into practice is what people really want to know. That's what really changes lives. So that, that, that speaks towards something that was in some sense. The Genesis not my personal, existential, Genesis of my work on the mini crisis, but sort of academic Genesis. I had so originally constant was going to teach a course, Evan Thompson is like a grandfather of the whole, you know, this was called four e or third generation, Koksijde, embodied, cognition consciousness, and how that possibly integrates with practices from Buddhism. Right. That he, he couldn't teach the courts. So he's a well ask John TJ. So I started teaching this course. And I, I, personally, I was just going to here's some cog sign here. And then I realize, no, no, no. Wait. Why are these two coming together so powerfully why there people like have a mile people drawn to this program, and I thought out what you've got is the cock size addressing a lot of historical forces. Like you said, it's giving us the theory, but people are turning to Buddhism 'cause they need to know the transformational practices, and they're looking for something that will wed a theoretical response to the history with a set of practices that gives them a personal existential response to it. So exactly. I think that's exactly the case, and, and I am. And so that's a bit of a touchstone for me. I look for communities and groups one of. Of the one of the great gifts of the video series is coming more and more contact with people. And I keep saying they're putting us a real time and we'll talent to create an ecology practices. New cycle technologies communities. One of the things I look for is do they have that, are they aware of the historical scientific framework, and trying to address it? But are they also trying to create no comprehensive sets off transformative practices, and are they are those two insomnia important dialogue and by and large, I overwhelmingly, that's what I keep seeing that people are not interested in right? Or at least the groups are to me feel like they're getting traction on this are are integrating those two sides together. So well, we were as we were listening through your lectures. I think you pointed this out that it almost seemed like you're going through the history of human development as it related to Ken Wilber spiral dynamics, kind of model of going to the different developmental stages, and colors. And you didn't say explicitly say it specifically but because I don't know his work. Oh, really? I know of it and I've read a little bit about it, but I haven't read his work in any intensive or extensive manner. I, of course, I know about transformational psychology, but I know of it for people through people like Michael Washburn. You're gay for rare up people like that. And so a so I know Wilbur in terms of sort of some of their criticisms of Wilbur, but I haven't read out Wilbur directly, that's not because avoiding Wilbur or anything it just hasn't. It's one of those things that just had had not intersected with my personal intellectual history that that's interesting. Yeah, I really was waiting for that to come out like the related. I'm sorry. Well, it's, it's so cool actually 'cause you're shopping, and take it as something that's actually more episode Mickley valuable, there's a convergence between my work and his work than in that even ultimately more important. I would say, yeah, so and the conversions really as I would describe. It is just the attempting to integrate science, spirituality and society. Yes. That I mean from what I've seen about this. And I mean I'm coming across some of the Wilbur stuff in the work on cultivating. We space because the integral community seems to have been a significant precursor of this will movement. So I'm also coming into contact with it. That way, I do not feel confident to speak about it at all is what I'm saying. Not at all. On a. There was. So I, I wanted to bridge into something else. I've been noticing lately, as it relates to the different levels in spiral dynamics that as people go through different transformational experiences they seem to kind of latch onto these new experiences as their new full, meaning structure, and then, and then because there are multiple stages to go through, you need to smash every new meaning structure to make the new one, but I just find this repeating pattern through the we do weekly calls with a bunch of people who are going through a set of courses that were designed. And this is one thing we keep seeing happening in, in some of the calls as people go through and, and kind of grasp onto some new meaning structure. And then everyone in the group is picking that apart so that they can move on. I wonder if you can comment on that this sort of because of that lack of meaning and the desire to make meaning that people grab onto things prematurely. Yeah. I think, so, that's, that's generally example of, you know, scarcity mentality and all the good work on. That's being gone on scarcity mentality right now. When people when they're scarcity right, people get they get very rigid. And then when they get any indication of a strategy that will alleviate their scarcity. They tend to overvalue it and fixate on its version of what's called the shelling effect. Young's dumbing effect is that you give people when people get a strategy for solving a problem. They'll often stick with a strategy, even though a better strategy could be used when newer problems emerge. Right. So. Did they all this worked? Okay. Abusing and that makes kind of sense 'cause, you know, you're trying to be very efficient of, they sort of lose. They, they're sort of the opposite of what kids do in playfulness. So when, when kids are first learning something, they'll get a strategy that solves the problem, and then what they do. Siegler, work shows us is they'll introduce all kinds of areas on, they'll introduce all kinds of Asians, and then they put the variations into competition with each other, and then the one that wins the competition sort of Volvo forward. And then. Right. And so the bees and this is one of the things I talk about in the series. I add those aren't Barna thin, but it ought about the importance of serious play, and that our culture, our culture doesn't know how to deal with pledge. We either trivialize it into entertainment on fine. Or we say, no, then it must be work that rat. Right. So serious play which, of course, is an I mean this respectful manner is what, you know, a lot of religion used to do for us. It's very, very serious play in which let's try various identities. Try. Various different ways of looking at, you know, the world view at let's play with them, you know, push religions can also ossified him not are not saying that. But what I'm saying is when people are in a meeting crisis. They end their scarcity mentality they will tend to fixate and overvalue on anything that starts to alleviate that. And of course, that makes a certain kind of sense if they how ever belong to a community that has inculcated in them, a higher order identification with a process of evolving. Serious play then usually their commitment to that can help override and heat them up going in some some, the mental fashion. So, for example, when I'm teaching people, touchy Thuan, right, when one of the things about the forms, you'll learn this move, and you'll get this move and all I get it now. And then the next move Kotal, totally right. How you doing the opposite of what you were doing in that movement? We will write an I in you try to tell them. No, no, no, right. That's process that process of, you know, having to transition between the move is actually what you're after take that I know that feels nasty to you, but Tryon relax trying. No, the principal's going and try and really get into that, because that's the long term Rothe the form is going to give you. And so, when you think when you have a structure that people are committed to in what, you know, when all our would call on, you know, aspirational rationality on her aspiration, it's really good Agnes colored. And she talks about, you know, how do you bring rationality to people trying to become something other than they are our normal models of decision theory is years my values. Here's my provinces. What gets me the maximal thing from those, but you can't use that normal model because you're trying to actually change your values and your pref. References. So you can't use sort of standard out ways of making decisions and reasoning so you, you have to give people a structure, you have to give them some sense that actually that makes them commit to the rationality of the operation, and you have to have somebody that they therefore is modeling that they can internalize that they can trust. And then, of course, that brings with all kinds of risk, right? That brings with a terrific risk. How do we how do we make sure that people who need to make that commitment? So they so they can avoid these two things they can avoid fixating on the premature meeting system that rather than committing to. I argue infective the, the notion of meaning that I talked about relevance realization is perpetually evolving that to try and think of it as ever been finished or finalize -able is to is to make a category mistake, we can come back to that, if you want, but we got we have to help people avoid. Exciting prematurely, but we also have to protect them from initially Shen abuse. Right. Exploitation. And so we've got the thing is, again, we don't have traditions and institutions that, you know, however, imperfectly they off they worked in the past, and I'm not protecting them from criticism. They nevertheless, were better than nothing that they were much, much better. Right. Than nothing. And so I'm not advocating going back, anonymous Daljit another fundamentalist, but I gotta get some of that functionality back for people. We really seriously. Do have you heard of that concept, read pilling? So is this some sort of Asian on the matrix was acted? Yes for taking up to waking up to reality or Smith from reality. But it, it, it always implies like the old reality in the new reality. And you take the pill wants and that sets I've been looking for a medium that kind of represents the continued waking up further out of that. You know, the every new reality, you find yourself in and we. Came across that one. Great, great pilling in actually, it might have been the demeaning crisis. Medium article by Peter Linder. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. I think it was Peter Lindbergh that said that actually ill he was referencing to some somebody else. But this grape pilling of fines is like a mean to remind yourself. I'm not done. I'm not done onward. Right. Right. And, and, and so you wanna make clear that, you know, she does a colleague of mine is a former student of mine. So I don't wanna make it sound like we're just independently converging on things. But yeah, I agree with Peter. I and I and I have arguments that I will present in the especially the second half of the series. But the history, also demonstrates the second of the series will give you sort of deeper, philosophical and scientific arguments as to why you shouldn't understand the product of cultivating wisdom enhancing meaning in life vest to trying to come. And I'm going to use this word it has an harsh overtone, but the illusions are intended now. Right. We shouldn't look for a final solution to meeting, right. We should not. What do that? That is a very dangerous misunderstanding of like the your, your ongoing evolving fitness true, your environment to yourself to each other to the world is meaning right? Trying to trying to think of it as something that is your that is evolving, or being evolved towards is a mistake. The process itself is the meaning and so, like, I say, I, I'm just just claiming that now got arguments and evidence for that in its forthcoming. But I think there are debriefings why we have to Reconceptualise, and there's many other people doing this, you have to Reconceptualise the sacred, we have to stop thinking of it as some supernatural Listrik property that essentially. And here's permanently in some final object fixed state, etc. We should we should instead, I would argue try to recover that wins law. Something that was lost right? Sort of win, as we've developed a verse Louis Louis argues, you know, these sort of totalitarian practices of suppression as depressing sort of the NAS tick tendencies in western culture. I'm not a I'm not an unbridled fan of the NAS ticks. There's deep criticisms there. But the, the idea that no, no wait. We should we instead of trying to create an orthodoxy. We should have a constantly creative evolving mythos, right? And that we should think of right. We should we should think are sacredness as sort of the inexhaustible -ness of in, right? An inexhaustible source of insight a constantly unfolding ground for our Evelyn nine so we, if we can so in that in that way, Plato is sacred to me, not, because I think, oh, there's the final truth in. It's done. We need nothing more. I don't believe that at all. I needed. I read Plato he not only informs me he transformed me. I become a different person. My life changes una. Go back and we the same Plato and I see things I didn't see before in Plato and then it, informs and transforms me, again, I go out into my life, myself and my situation changes. I come back I see more in plano, and that just keeps reliably happening and for me that makes Plato deeply sacred to it, it seems like it's one of those processes that safeguards against self-delusion our self deception that I think that's it. I think the commitment I mean, that's what we're losing in our culture. Another way of thinking about the meeting practices were losing the commitment to the process. Right. So the commitment to the process of overcoming, self-deception and affording self transcendence into deep way is being lost. And what is being worn where this damages were on the rationally when people really focus on the products of the cognition, and they don't value or pay attention to the processing? That's the hallmark of. 'nationality and thinking about how this does even ramified into our political discourse. We people are losing it. Seems more more people commenting on this were losing the commitment to the process of democracy and were more and more fixated on this end goal of crushing demolishing, all opponents, and sort of gathering all the marbles. And so, and so we're losing, you know, democracy is to be this opponent processing in which the system was designed to be self correcting. And it's got twisted into this adversarial. No, no. The process isn't what matters, what matters is me. Winning debunking pressuring demolishing new and then taking all the marbles of attention, right? And power and wealth to me. And I think, again, I mean that's, that's the way. And that's again, why I think some of the so-called people who speak on rationality are actually contributing to the problem rather than solving it because they are they are advocating this adversarial. Debunking demain. Rushing rushing, having a final absolute victory model rather than no commit to the process of continually overcoming self-deception continually affording, myself, transcendence, and in democracy with really commit to being involved in a community that a communitarian process of self correction, and so, I think a loss of the commitment to the process as opposed to attaching again. This is this is a this is a misplaced or Saks kind of sacredness, you know, I'm a Republican and the right is always, right. And you know, this is this there is there. You know, it's inherently essentially good for all that model of sacredness. I think we just don't give it up. It is just the wrong model. This is sorry that was a bit of a speech. I love it. Passionately about this. This is a big recent. We got into Jordan, green hall in Daniel smocked, Enberg, actually, this, this idea of sovereignty is a framework for how to how to relate, in and talk to others. And we've saved from. Yeah. As a process we've applied it in our own relationship. If we get into an argument about something we end up spending about twenty percent of the time on the subject of the argument and the remaining eighty on the meta have how we arrived in that argument, you know where where the sovereignty was lost in a non I think, is a form and this is important again. And I mean, there's a again, this is something I'm getting into both in practice and in developing in theory, this is dialogical rationality the interesting because I have his book have to read it, but I bought for places reason dance, Berber, actually argues in 'nigma of reasons that rationality was always an original sort was originally. It should always be grounded in dialogical rationale. That is the primordial form of rationale. -ality. And that's why again Plato is so important to me, because Plato writes in dialogue you have slapped her these in dialogue with others. And then that gets replaced course, and this is one of those, what looks like an innocent change, and it has so much ramification. It gets replaced by Aristotle's treatise like the dialogical form of rationality gets presented. It's replaced by the monolithic presentation right of a system right now. Right. That's there's there's value to that in night. But we lost something really essential dialogical aspect style article rationality, this dialogical wisdom. It seems like that. That might be using the term wrong that monolithic kind of structural. Meaning you know the put forward is partially a result of people's desire for concrete. Meaning and latching onto anything that, that rule set almost that they can use guidebook for life instead of feel comfortable in the league. You ity in the, the process, the process. Yeah. Yeah. So it's I mean, I it's about a part of it is distance pervasive, cognitive bias of a fixating on the product of our cognition, the product of our communication rather than the process. And, and so that's just that's, that's a perennial problem. So that's an example of a perennial pattern of self deception. If human beings have to continually and you see it through the mystical tradition. You see it in the Dow dot the telltale chin begins with the way that can be spoken of is not the way like remember, remember, like, like, so these are, this is a perennial. This is a perennial problem. And, and so I think there's that and then I think, as I said, there's a historical issue of the meaning crisis which causes meaning scarcity, which means people do latch onto what is quick fast, and let's complete in certain because then it can't be taken away from me. If like if you are starving, you want, the quickest fastest, you know, most curable certain. Food that you can get you don't look for the best and you don't get involved in trying to improve your food acquisition. You eat the first thing you come across. Right. That is all edible to you. And so, I think that's also those two things are exacerbate are interacting in an exhaustive hitting, if people will because it's a perennial problem because of historical meaning scarcity, they will again, latch on them. So maybe let's talk about solutions shrew obviously contemporary practices is a really excellent solution because the whole point is to observe the process, and that's that's it. You know, you just sit administration and observe the processes of your own being. So I would I would I mean, yes. And no. I mean so let let let let me I want to respond respectfully, but I want to expand my answer. I don't want it simply agree. Because I think it might be misleading and this will come up later on in the series when you get to the episodes on sort of Sephardic, automa-, and mindfulness because I actually have I mean, I, I was, I think the first person at the university of China to, to teach identically about mindfulness, and I also was one of the first people to extracurricular offer meditation and contemplation and touch each one classes to students. So I went, I'm saying that not all to. I'm trying on committed to this. Right. But the time typic- work has also led need to be very critical both of by a bit of the academic work on mindfulness, and, and the, the western culture, the way the western culture, I think his has adopted of. Appropriated. I don't where you wanna use mindfulness in a really reduced with significantly mouth malformed fat fashion. So we tend to acquaint all of mindfulness with meditation, which is is a mistake, first of all the eightfold path, for example, is an a hole collagen practices. And by the way, and have it on my arm. You know, meditation it might meditation is in the eight full path, which implies there is what wrong meditation. There's you're right. You have to be careful right, right? The Buddha was very critical of people who just mend just meditate and become inland. Right. And now what, what why is all of that? Well, what you want what we what we what we need. And let me twenty at least this is an analogy. I used quite frequently. You said step back and look. So we have a bunch of practices that do here's my mental framing of the world. Right. And so I'm normally looking through that frame me where I mean both beyond. And by means. And when I do a meditation, as I trained myself to do this, I trained myself to look at back and look at it, right? Because and why don't we do that with my glasses because there might be gunk on it? But how do I know that I've actually removed the gun not by continuing to stare at my glasses? You don't have to do at the put my glasses on and see if I see the world differently. Right. And so while the, the work that I did I published a couple years ago with Leo Ferraro. We talked about meditation is this practice for stepping back. Right. But contemplation we should reserve that term for practices that directors outward. And that's exactly what the word contemplation originally means it comes it's related to the Latin word for temple, which originally meant the part of the sky who look up to when it's a translation of the Greek would be oria, what we get the word Serey from, which is to see the deeper patterns of reality. So you have contemplative practices, like mata- or, or, or looking at the three marks of existence or in stoicism, the view from above. These are all practices that have been designed. To say can you see the world differently? Now can you see into the depths of reality, like unique contemplative practices, because if you're on overcome self-deception you have to do two things you have to not only break the inappropriate frame, member, the people who are Stelling the fixating you have to break the fixation, but you also have to be able to see a new a new how if it now how do I see things differently? How do I look at the world with which you need an ecology a practices? And in addition to, you know, sitted practices of meditation and contemplation you need moving practices, you need practices, where you're bringing mindfulness into your sensory, sensory motor interaction with the world in an embodied procedural fashion. That's things like IT Thuan and yoga important unique practices. Like I mentioned earlier, like active open-mindedness or something like cvt, what you're learning to look for all the cognitive bio sees. 's in your infrared processing at. But yet, but, but you need something method to that you need to you need a thing that says, look at these practices, they have complementary sets of functions. Complementary sets of strength and weaknesses, you need to concentrate them together in a reflective empirically validated manner, so that they self correct. So that their strengths and weaknesses are set together right in a complementary fashion. That's what I mean. When I talked about, in the call Jia practices. You have to have an call G A practices that commit us to a process, a process like we talked about of overcoming, self deception and, and affording a soft transcendence wisdom, but they have to they right? That set of abilities to respond to the perennial problems has to be integrated with the best work in cognitive science. That gives us a new way right now. Not, not, not of Stella GIC. I wanna go ba- fat before the scientific revolution. Forget that's not gonna happen. Right. You can't unwind the history. So why I'm so disaster of the work by people like Evan Thompson, and Arale, LA lowlands might all the people that are, what are called four e or third generation oxide is that this is a commune scientific endeavor that is trying to basically, give us a scientifically legitimate alternative worldview in which we belong, in which condition is inherently embodied into Nutley embedded. It's inherently enacted, right? It's inherently extended and emotion, and I and cognition are inseparably sewn together and believe me. There is a lot of terrifically good and increasingly convergent Haagen give science cognitive psychology. Neuroscience dynamical systems theory thinking all pointing towards this worldview. And so we need. That in order to respond. That's what I would argue yet, when that's why I'm doing the two parts of the series, the history yields with, you know how can we have we understand our worldview, cognitive, cultural grammar? Can we come up with an alternative one? And then how can we mesh that in reciprocally affording fashion with an collagen practices? Yeah. That's really interesting actually reminds me of something that can Wilbur, quite often talks about is the ascending and descending aero of consciousness, where ascending is like you could say it's up. So you're trying to remove yourself from everything in kind of observe it impartially in India ending as when you try to embody fully and actually nutty in it unpracticed in it. Yes. Yes. So you, you need both. And that's part of also that overlaps with what I was talking about meditation contemplation, you need zoom out and zoom in, in fact, it's really interesting as I'm going through the co hearing, the weird. The we space and policy about youth Antic discourse practices. Right. They invoked that without knowing I think, I mean, they might know the Wilbur, so maybe that's an influence, but they talk a lot about how important, you know, getting zoom in zoom out is to make making sure that you're constantly making the process on full gear in full Eurofoil. You're fording out, what that is converging with, for example. Here's what I mean. About converging with the science, I do a lot of work on inside problem solving. What is it to have an insight, right? And what the research is converging on. I would argue and I've argued it right. Is that no you need processes that sort of, you know, like meditation? They, they get you step back and you, you sort of pull apart your frame, right? We also need processes that allow you to lead soft. It's right to leak to the new way of seeing. And if you have both of those, you will tend to improve your capacity forgetting. An insight when you need it. And so the science I think is lining up very much with a lot of these ideas. Now again, I not just. Oh, I'm not an apologist. The science on just showing you also criticizes a lot of ways in which people have tried to adopt with these right? I just gave you a criticism of a lot of the way in which the west is adopting, you know. You know, mindfulness or I forget the name, I wanna orders book that he calls it mindfulness. Yeah. I read. And so the try and also you know what we need is, we need, you know, that these have to be in a genuine dialogue, right? I'm not just an apologist saying the science supports this traditional worldview. Apologetic and style. Jay is something I'm deeply suspicious of as a solution. Also utopic. Oh, just follow me, and they're here's the permanent perpetual future. I'm also deeply suspicious of that. But as long as there's a reciprocal reconstruction between the science and the ecology practices. I think we're in we're we're on a good course. I familiar with the work of young, I met him. I met him I had a really interesting, a hug interaction with him. So he we, we only met once, and it was at I'm sorry, I forget his name, it was a former student of mine, and he sort of said, I want you to meet, and so we met, we talk was very interesting because he. I don't know how to say this. I was trying to I was trying to talk to, and it became it became much more of a dollar because originally I thought it would be major sort of asking questions and getting answers from, but he kept saying that a lot of the dial a lot of the vocabulary, I was using he was finding it berry precipitations and very helpful. We're trying to articulate what he was saying. Now, that's only out of one that's only one person, but there aren't a lot of people on the other hand, who claim to be enlightened so getting a large number of participants for that investigations difficult. But it I came away from that. And not to put too much on it. Then I try not to, but I came away from that sort of encouraged that there seemed to be a genuine and this happened over, you know, butt of an hour more of conversation, a genuine resonance. I'm not claiming to be enlightened not staying at at all. What I'm saying is there seemed to be a resonance between this framework. I'm trying to articulate you guys and his own search for vocabulary conceptual Google cabinet for ticketing some of what he was talking. The reason why I brought him up is because the zooming in zooming out in those exact terms is one of his very core practices. An say the I do not think that's a coincidence of you again, if you read the paper that Leo, and I published on reformulating, the mindfulness contract, we don't do it from tradition, though. We do it from. Here's what the science shows you. Right. And so we're very careful about that. Because we got lots of people offering the traditional argue. But we say no, no, you know into so people who are not investigating mindfulness at all. People are just trying to figure out how to improve problem solving. How to make us more insightful? More creative. They are independently coming to this machinery as the machinery for silicates, and then I should let you know, that in trying to develop that were Leo Ferraro area Herro Bennett, and I just published a an article in the Oxford camp, Montana's thought arguing that the flow state is just a high is a more extended. It's, it's what we call an insight cuss. Gauge it, you bunch of insights cascading like one insight priming, and making. So you're getting sort of an extended aha. And that's what's going on. We got sort of arguments in evidence for that in the, in the flow state, and then the experiment I mentioned earlier about mystical experiences seems to be it's, it's got it provides evidence suggesting that it's not the content of the mystical. Experience. It's more the insight like aspects. So it's not just an instant mystical expenses aren't an insight in consciousness. There's an insight of consciousness, right? It's it's not a restructuring of a problem in your consciousness. It's a it's a it's a systematic insight. It's a restructuring of your whole consciousness and fog nation and so that's even higher. So I'm working with Daniel Craig and Madeleine it remain on a book right now. It's should be done this year called the cognitive continuum from insight to enlightenment trying to pick up on all of that, that there's all this, that there's a continuum you were basically using the same machinery, but in more and more, maybe that's part of Wilbur spiral. I don't know a smile suggest to me that there is something the same as being preserved even though there's an increase in an ex station. And so what seems I would be arguing maybe this convergent. I, I need to talk to him, right. Is that what you're what you're seeing is an excerpt tation of the insight machinery? So expectation is. Evolutionary process where you take something that evolved for one function. And then you can use it for another function. This evolve for tasting poison and moving food around, but it's been exempted for speech. I use it for speech that because many organisms have tongues that don't speak. But because it has all of these nerves for Basting poison because it has to be really flexible offer moving my food around, and because it happens to be in the air passageway, it's a significant. I mean, it's not the sole thing I need lyrics and other things, but Evelyn doesn't have to create this particular Tori machine from scratch. It's got one ready to go. And so just exempts that into. And I think the insight machinery, right is being exacted. Right. Into flow into mystical experience into awakening experiences, these or mystical experiences that caused people to do that tremendous transformation that we talked about. And then when, when you get the transformation coupled to a sappy ential developmental process of trying to overcome self-deception comp. Sensitively and before self transcendent so that you can systematically into an inch comprehensively addressed the problems. I think that's what it is to become an enlightened person. And again, that's not a final state. It's to be it's to have it is has to emerged into a particular course of development. So I would like to track to Canada w 'cause it just I mean, I just sort of had that fight. Now, I don't know if it's right? But the metaphor of a spiral suggests to me, right? Something like exception is occurring yet. So that sounds greatly of just. Yeah. Oh, good. Wow. That's great. That's. I think that's I think he's talked specifically about that one or two YouTube videos. That would actually be very interesting to facilitate a dialogue between human Ken, and also you inches on of be super interesting, sort met him once before. And I found it really interesting Tientsin really interesting interaction. So I'd be happy to do. I'd be happy to do that. And you guys have really I mean all ready had the interest of because of Peter, Peter Lindbergh in though, some of this stuff, I'm reading also indirectly because of the direct with Jordan, but I'd be really interested. And also, Dave a filler foam. I rebel whistle talking with Ken Wilber at sometime, I think that would be I, I would find it. I think benefecial I hope he would he would to some. All right. That was part, one of our interview with John reveal checkout, his lecture series, awakening, from the meaning crisis on YouTube, you can find all the links and show notes to this episode at future thinkers dot org slash ninety eight per to this interview goes live in a week, and we'll dive deeper into strategies for self transformation in creating meaning and if you wanna stay up to date with our latest episodes, blog posts, or news from future thinkers. Join our mailing list at future thinkers dot org slash mailing list to meet like minded people. Join our future thinkers, discord community, go to future, thinkers, or lash, discord. Check out our new course. Personal evolution part, one is on cultivating sovereignty, and is designed to support you in developing more clarity about your direction and purpose in life making better decisions, and having more agency to live your life on your own terms, two is on integrating, the shadow and is designed to support you in overcoming nihilism and tapping into inner source of energy, creativity and wisdom to make meaningful progress towards actualising your full potential. To learn more, go to courses that future thinkers dot org. Don't forget to subscribe, and hit the Bill icon to get notified of new videos. You can also follow us on social media to stay connected, if you'd like to get a t shirt, like the new make America think, again, go to future thinkers dot org slash store. If you like what we do, and you want to help us make more back gas and videos, consider donating or becoming a patron at future thinkers dot org slash support. Also, visit our sponsor Kolya and use the coupon code future to get ten percent off your purchase.

Jordan IRA Wilbur Plato John TJ green hall Peter Lindbergh Evan Thompson Mark Lewis YouTube United States North America university of Toronto Mike Annemie Brennan Stewart Snell Chris Europe
Episode 15: Dita Von Teese & Gregory Arlt

Look Behind The Look

49:42 min | 7 months ago

Episode 15: Dita Von Teese & Gregory Arlt

"Everyone has a podcast right now. And i use anchor to create this one. I'll tell you why it's free. I could stop right there. But there's more anchor will distribute your podcast for you. So it can be heard on spotify apple podcasts. So many more there's creation tools that allow you to record and edit your podcast right from your phone or computer and anger will help you. Monetize with no minimum listenership. It's everything you need to make a podcast in one place. Download the free anchor app or go to anchor dot. Fm to get started. Welcome to look behind the look. The new podcast that examines iconic looks in film television music and fashion history. I'm your host. Tiffany bartok. I'd like to share a very special message from our premier sponsor presentation folder. The beauty market is a billion dollar industry. That's ever evolving in adjusting to the times but the one thing that remains consistent is the need for strong brand identity and representation whether you're in india. Beauty brand entrepreneur or pro artist printed products and packaging. Are one of the most common facets of branding and recognition cosmetic packaging is constantly changing and with consumer demand for sustainability is necessary to find vendors who can bring your vision and ethos to life presentation folder. As a print industry leader committed to innovation design sustainability and most importantly their customers they work to ensure every project stands out and deliver the very best service to you on time and added a price. That's fair to everyone presentation folder. A family owned business. With over forty years of experience delivering printed products you can now customize any product or packaging to fit your needs everything from cosmetics and skincare packaging to posters event materials. Business cards and more. Our listeners can save ten percent on their next order visit presentation folder dot com and use promo code. Look behind the look and use promo code. Look behind the look. One word to get ten percent off any new custom print or packaging order placed. Bring your parental life. The pf iway. Hi everybody well. Between watching framing britney and bidding farewell to call my agent and catching up on all the golden globe nominee films. I am happy to report. We were still able to get this episode ready for you. In time for valentine's day is episode is with two wonderful people that i'm so lucky to know and i'm forever grateful to them for creating space in their insanely busy schedules to talk to me about how they work together. Creatively i have to tell you how i met. My guests. gregory was introduced me by my dear friends. Troy surat in the th-annual hawkins and we rendezvous in my home town of portland and we were all there for makeup event and it being my hometown of course disarmed me in being surrounded by my closest friends added to that. And what i couldn't believe was how funny gregory was a definitely burned. A whole week's worth of calories from him making me laugh and if you've ever taken one of his classes or seeing one of his lives you'll know that he just never stops. He's constantly going and he has more energy than the entire world combined. He's absolutely infectious. Gregory does dita's makeup up of course very often and is one of the most in demand artists in hollywood. he also does gwen. Stefani victoria beckham. katy perry share san miller an hayes. Fran drescher liza minelli. They've all had the gregory experience and he is the director of makeup. Artistry for mac cosmetics. Make sure you're following him on instagram. Of course dida dida dida. And i have been working on something for a while and i will have news for you about all that. But in the meantime. I hope you enjoy a little sample. What it's like to spend time with dida. I know anyone who's listening or watching probably knows deed as the queen of burlesque an innovative business woman and a ravishing beauty but dida is more than a living doll. Yes i often describe her as fine art but she is the hardest working woman i have ever seen. She's tremendously hands on in everything she does. She can solve any problem. Command order and lead an ensemble without letting on to feeling any pressure gotten the opportunity to watch a rehearse from nine. Am straight into a new year's eve performance without a hitch and it was a master class in show bizz leadership and intensely creative innovative intelligent entrepreneur and performer. And a woman who leads with class grace and supreme integrity. I love and respect data. More every time i get to spend time with her and she's someone who i am very proud to now and sheriff space with a welcome to one of our sessions of beauty talk. Yes yes yes. All three of us have experienced deeper conversations than these. But you're some fun talk for you to enjoy for now. Can you guess what lipstick i have on. Oh it's it's. I was in my freezer still razor. I put them in the freezer in the in the I- horde them. And i love them. And i get compliments on them every time. It's your viva glam. Obviously and you guys work together on that clap right. We worked together a lipstick that you have run out at a different too and it was just like an back when i back when i did glam on like just regular rebe lamb. They didn't do any special packaging and they definitely didn't let me read because they were like we need to sell big volume and people are wearing red lipstick. And i was okay so i used to have to pretend i was wearing and i'd say oh have lots of layers on where the kind of like it was kinda pinky pinky bauge. So i'd have to like layer that to kind of like the what year that was. When wasn't somebody not wearing red. But it's wrong well. I think it wasn't that people were in grad. I think they were just like we. Can't i think they've come to their senses. Since the first all the first uber glam colors were like more new troll and it was only in recent years. I think right gregory that they did like more Like fun colors guarded. Like when viva la lam. I launched the first one vehicle mom was like a brick red and i remember it was good. Universal read to stage shifted towards more neutrals. Because the whole point was to raise money to sell like neutrals as we know for the you know. The populist community tend to sell a little bit more but they did shift a little bit. Like majlis was a bright pink and rosalia that just came out with this dynamic read. But i always thought to myself. Why isn't dita's read back then. So that's was that before or after your personal read. That was before so that was the last one that came out with my book. Might your beauty mark. Is it this book. I'm such an idiot. I don't even have my next to me. Well that's why do offy. Yes yes it's one of the three data books that i have and there's more on the way i know so so in this book that you put together. Did you ever consult with gregory about any of were. You like i'm good. I know i know what. I'm writing and mean gregory's featured in the book for sure i can't remember it's been so long now. Remember we spent like it was a major this huge book and it was a big undertaking and it was ever evolving. And so it's har- foggy a lot of the creation of it was rose up. Daca is a little bit foggy. But i know you are well. Represented in their gregory. I know i'm sure i asked you. You know you said you remember saul you really. No no totally rosen. I go way way back. I met rose even before. I met dido because and i met in two thousand six if memory serves me well and i remember when this book was in It's infantile state rosen. I getting together about three or four different times. I have actually photographs of us meeting together and just talking talking the beauty of the philosophy of beauty. What i loved about a lot of people that collaborated indeed. Dita's book were people who have their own point of view on beatty but who aligned with dita's point of view as well and that was because my relationship dida of course was represented beautifully in that book of the cat nice. She started despite a love. So i just thought we did we rosen. I did talk a lot about you. Know beauty on different levels and and Doing a lot of contributions on specific makeup tips and techniques. So two thousand six is when you and met and then the book was two thousand four. Let me look. I'm going to look right now. Fourteen how did you guys me. tell me that. While i'm looking for the day. Grandmas on swiped right. I said yes. Yeah thousand six we. There was no swiping it was it was When i was working with view glam kind of through. I've been having a hard time finding makeup artists to do me as good as i did me or better and i'm not gonna name any names but i worked with a lot of people and i'm not saying you know i just couldn't find the right fit like i felt like i always go to the mirror at the photo. Shoot and like make my Drama bitter or Drama kenai bigger. So i was struggling. And i was working a lot and i was getting glamour girl and i think we kept asking like mac. People contacts. Who who we should try and it came to you you know that's diminish the work of the other artists like it took me a long time to find a really good fit where it was you know they were. You know all of it. It's because it's not just about the makeup it's also like how do you feel shoot how long they take like. Sometimes when i'm sitting in the makeup chair. And i'm like there for two and a half hours i just like i. Can't you know i i could have done this in thirty minutes myself. On the same token i don't want to always do you know because it can be exhausting to do all the hair makeup and everything yourself and then step on set and then try to exit. I mean i do it all the time but it's not always it's not always my preference right right right right when i got it. So does i of course before meeting. Actually i quite a long time. It was a lot of actual will france by funnily enough and it was one of those kinds of things where indeed. It's it's the kind of aesthetic of makeup that i love. I've always loved classic beauty. I love old movies. I love a really pristine check medically perfect. You know the sausage and and technique with makeup and it was really funny because and data will remember when we the first job we did was a two day photo shoot like so many looks and it was all shooting vintage mcguire and the photographer said well. I really want to do a smoky. I've yelling and it was funny. Because i had brought like it. Was my birthday working with burt. Nights brought i think every red lipstick that was ever created and every false last that was ever invented and we use. I thought i was thinking to myself. Oh my gosh. She's never gonna know that. I know how you know what i remember about that too is like of course i like. We love each other and hit it off immediately but i was like skeptical as a. He's talking big talk about kanye's lifts after that i thought it was. Maybe this all meals one. No it was actually. I thought it was too. It was actually peach. John which was no you like. There's the it's the seattle and it's funny because remember on gates we kind of really bonded over a love of god. Yes you mean. I was just looking at pictures of xanadu. Like the other day embarrassingly enough. I guess it's not embarrassing guys. I'm talking about you guys. Because i remember on that shoot at which one the first one or we could tell billion stories. I'm sure that really pops in my brain is that i was starting to do her eyebrows. And i've always been a fan of using shadow is just been my thing and i remember pulling out. Carbon like black is and i remember going. Is that black. And i was like. Oh my gosh is too strong for and he said it is. 'cause thank god. Make a strategy is dark brown and meet my hair lap. I loved that as a match made in heaven. So so you guys can. Can i talk a little bit more. About how how you guys work together because this is what. I've been thinking about all morning as you know. I've talked to people who have to design. Looks for like moulin rouge broadway show and then they have to. The actor takes it on and the actor takes a lot of say in the look that's being created because that's part of their character and decided not to say that your character but your look is is so well developed over the years and it must be that you felt. You were still in collaboration. With gregory rather than handing him over your face you know and how does that relationship work. I feel like you must have a lot of trust there. You know he understands what you want to portray especially because one of the things that was always happening to me on photo shoots was like let's get a different thiede. Like learned pretty quickly on. There was a point where i was like. I'm sitting. i was doing a photo shoot in paris and the photographer who will remain nameless since using spoke about women women and using all these famous limited she. She's like this book is about like in a beauty like women and everything. And then i remember. She told the makeup artists. Like to you you know. Use hardly any vega also accentuated a little bit the dark circles help and she said that's the makeup artist. I was like whoa. Whoa you know. I got like trying to get like the natural beauty. But also like if you're going to do that you should be You know trying to bring out the best in someone anyway like light it nicely eivind with being seen without makeup but also you know on my own terms but i think i realize that moment i was like you know what we'd marlene dietrich of stood for this shit suddenly like thinking about like the glamour in what it needs to meet for my confidence and what make up means in my hair and all the things that i've you know Anybody washes doesn't know. I'm a natural blonde and i just i found my confidence through hair and wearing it in this hairstyle and wearing makeup and so i i had a point i was like. I'm tired of everybody wanting to see like you know. Let's show a different data. Let's show you natural. And i just thought like but it makes me feel like insecure weird and you know. I don't like how it feels kind of finally what you know. I'm not gonna do that anymore. Well what's the goal of that. what is i do. it's for them. It's a selfish for not for them. Like i did this amazing different thing and showed her in a different way was like that's okay to show me in a different way but think about how you can do that in a way. That doesn't like make me feel weird because boy my here you know i'm not here. I not model. i'm not a model. I'm a performer. Author lingerie designer. That is trying to you know. Usually these photo shoots to promote what i'm selling which beauty glamour Fun for whims kelly. Like my show and it's just like this isn't helping sell what i call myself. A glamour evangelists. Because i'm gonna go over the top with glamour because even if a little bit rubs off on somebody it's kind of like that's young preaching just for maybe somebody will take it to heart be like you know the day i started wearing just a little red lipstick was a nice day so Yeah that's all than i like. I was never trying to reinvent data. All why would i like. I one thing. I loved about her before i met her was her aesthetic. You know the way that she has. Art directed her life and herself exactly the way that feels right to her so and also to like you know and i love that type of aesthetic anyway and i think was if anything like again. It's just always about making a plus burs herself. But i remembered tonight very early on in our our relationship. You know talking about isn't going to be fun. It was like. Isn't it going to be great. When i'm ninety eight looking through the pictures of me look in the same you know it. Isn't you know. I mean i little things like maybe adding a little highlight or little gloss on the mouse or a an aqua blue shadow why why deviate from something that's incredible you know and reword word but like you know when somebody is a brand for lack of a better word that you think of liza minnelli like you're not going to see her with no lashings on the top and the bottom. You know. it's like mickey mouse to take his ears off. I that's so true to data or liza with mickey mouse. You understand now the next thing you know being yes oh. It's a similar thing when they tried to take like athletes and things and and glam them up. You know what i mean. It's like did you really show them something that they wanted to see. See or did you just put them in a costume at feel like eat taking it down sometimes can be like a costume that somebody wanted wants just wants to experiment with for their own benefit. I had a dollar for every. Shoot that i've been on with geeta that someone's we have an idea. I mean i'd be retired like with a staff of fifty. You know what i mean. Like and i think that data to your point you know People always want wanna take that credit. Ooh i got her to not wear red lipstick. It was my share. We had her in board straight hair. You know that this thing. And i remember doing a major publication with the which will remain nameless or if sheets name remain exactly. The name was and i remember. It was a national fashion magazine. Us magazine major. And i remember. It was an article on An article on dida and basically the editor was insistent that there was a pared down version of dina different. Shoot not the same. No saying schule capital were two shots. When was going to be full glam. But i'll editor was like insistent that we should dida pared down and and it's so funny because it's what you do you're there you're literally on sets and it's and it puts you in a really awkward position because you know what's going to do. I'm not doing that. Storm up set or we renegotiate. We go we get a little bit of this. Little bit of that negotiated was reuben a fan or not even a fan at our sorry. What was the issue that we did For vanity fair no bizarre. Peter lindbergh peter lindbergh. That might be the shoot. I was talking about here because on them. Bird negotiated with us. So how did that look at. It was said one glamour shot one natural shot in a white chris. Shirt relax limitations. It was kind of like it reminded me of leg. yes. I know the picture. I know the picture a gardener like you know in between scenes in a movie and just kind of letting her down for a second to get the. What was the negotiation. How did that. How did that look. Ishin was basically like i remember saying. Can we do one picture without the makeup. At the end we did in. That picture ran to so and that was kind of like address. That had kind of a white hood is remember. it really is But the look that. I loved of yours that i just sent you guys. Yesterday was the one. I think who did the hair for the colored waves the gravest. Tony medina oh it is. Oh my goodness i love that. What's the story behind that shoot. I was shooting. I had this concept for one of my show tours that i did this. My exact same hair look As a red haired blonde data and a normal me and then the silver fox me and we did exactly the same hair like had this characters kind of all photographed and then put together doing things and so It was just part of that shoots that we and and and then i feel like some i just recently. Did you just use it again recently. For something did you do you. How do you feel like you probably have a story about how you acquire the images for your shoots will. That was an hour sanchez. Who i collaborate with our centers a lot because we you know he brings a lot to the table also like and also we work really easy. It's like you know me. I go over there and We i go to his house. He comes to my house with with pedro. Who is you know kind of art directing and you know sometimes i. I'll either have to all my own hair makeup or like agree to do it or tonio Wig or it's just kind of what we can do. Whatever i can just go there and do stuff on my own. Or i can do stuff with gregory and his always very easy and there's no fuss and there's not like a crew and there's no like we just go over there and shoot stuff for fun and as you know we should allow stuff for my tours and for whatever i need but we're not very like a low key team which has been amazing to know those kinds of people that can work that way especially during this kobe. Time where we're like you know can have four people in the room and we can make amazing pictures. Yeah yeah have you guys been able to anything together in this shutdown since the shutdown just yet will i mean and it's funny because there were about like one or two things came up it wasn't available to do but i have worked very very minimally drink coke bid and it's weird and it's as long like setup the right way everyone's tested and it's all the protocols replace Than it's been still weird you know. It's it's so much of it that it goes beyond trust sunny bats about like being a safe as possible right. Yeah of course of course. Of course what what. Oh my god. Look at this beautifying. I was like this is like adding inciting to the window. What is going on may hang. Are you kidding. Because it's like four o'clock over there right. It's like seven here. You can see it coming through but see us. God it's gorgeous. It's so garage directing that. I'm here for it. I e an we can get you know. I have a shaver. Their in house. Do not touch it do you not. It's bothering you. it's just and i'm sure it's going to be gone moment anyway. A brighter as we've been doing this. Yes yes yes yes yes Did you guys have you learned anything from dida. Dida dida had. Did you learn anything from gregory. That surprised you yeah. I'm always trying to do my browse like gregory browse really. How's it different always like. Oh god radios house. Oh my god. I got off my head. You know literally off the top of my head how do you how do you do the promo you say. Oh i've learned leave things from did i mean it's amazing because one thing and it's funny because i'm going i'm like to myself as a perfectionist and i've been doing make time but one thing i really did learn from jetta which is is to tilt your chin up to really make sure the bottom lip as is perfectly matter. What goes into what. I call the twilight zone. When you're doing someone's make up and you just feel it gliding. You need to lift show all. That's good data harassed a lot of makeup person that but like what about us. Did you get. Did you get my lip. Yeah well those god. I think of all the various artists that i completely like been a pain in the ass for i know yeah i got in a bad way or anything. We're just in like we Do you see this or do you. Do you have a using this. No i'd like just like sneak into the bathroom and go fix it you. I've never done that too because we can. We can also the other thing about having a great makeup artist or hair person. Will you be like dude. What about this. You know like i. Can't you know. I like working with people that you can be free about it. And they're not going to get offended. And so i think that means there's a definitely work with people who are not deduct will remain nameless us on drop one name neckties. You know. everyone's energy is of course so contingent words like you know i mean dita's set from our i shoot. I mean it's you have a connection. You know you. You connect easy. We have a jeff lynne. Unspoken language absolutely sometimes. That's really important when it comes to that relationship but dida you. I mean you're really both of you are really special. I just felt so. I feel like i've known both of you forever even though i never get to be with you in the same room and like but but both of you i can say are the most open and welcoming people like. There's nothing nothing that sets you on guard or anything about you. So i imagine that the two of you would be a match made in heaven but you know if it's it's chemical right. It's we usually need like timing police on because we will get lost and how fun we're having and be like. Oh it'd be like how much longer like got the pace because we can really slap our jaws. Do you get in trouble for talking onset behind the scenes things too much you know. I'll go all looking at the fail and we starts ago down. Oh yeah and. I have a very looney sense of humor that not honestly i. I feel like. I've had an app workout after the best gregory the d. that i don't know if i told you this but on new year's eve gregory somebody had met him several times right so gregory was like. Oh hi gregory. And he was like yeah. I've met you a million times. And gregory was like well he just kept billion. He says well you know you have glasses. So i didn't know he goes. I've never taken my glasses off in gregory's like who was his arguments. That's so are it was. It was a friend of armand's in arm. And i was like he doesn't wear glasses but i can totally see. Have this like me. I'm always wearing rhinestone. Holly out on it and gregory like he was like i really wanna to find another excuse. But i don't have that yet. I don't have time and warming up then. You weren't getting. I get that sometimes but right now it happens to the best of us. I mean please. Time is flying now. You guys said that your philosophies on beauty were were you know matching. What do you have one that you can think of your philosophy on beauty. I mean. I know you've written about it at great length but can you summarize it. I mean all kinds of things come to mind you know. My first thought is like. I love that quote which i'm sure could be made a little bit less harsh at this point but i can't remember who said it was You know one of those great ladies of beauty something like there's no such thing as an ugly woman only lazy one day whoa stats feel read. I remember i know. It's like one of those beauty. Great length halina religious stein. Or somebody like that like somebody like that. Were over right now. But i love the sentiment of that but i don't like the words ugly thing i hate. You know Some but i liked the idea of it. It's like they're you know for me. It's like i love eddie of lamour and creating glamour because even if you are not beautiful you can be amazing and intriguing and mysterious and alluring. And i feel like there's all these things you can do to build that miss yourself and so you know Glamour i think is the word is. It's really a word that's related to magic and which you know what i'm talking about glamour right on think about private jets. I think about like creation like manmade beauty. Yes yes an effort. I love manmade beauty and listen. I like mountains the ocean. I like the trees. But i really love like you know may beautiful things artistic gorgeous things like well how somebody made that so for me makeup and like all of that like glamour and creation of your yourself your drag you know in how you present yourself to the world is you know i. I love that and i get really excited about people. Choose to be who they want to be I like that yes. It is a choice right. Yeah what about you. I mean listen. There's a there's like degrees choice. I don't ever like to say that. 'cause i know like there's people that have you have some choices. Not everybody can be putting your spending time putting on makeup or whatever and and there's a million reasons why somebody could be watching going. Well i can't do that but it's the idea of you know the idea that there are choose what are saying is and you know it can be give you confidence. Yes yes yes. Yes yes my answer is what she said okay and that is why it's love it. Totally one hundred asked this question. And i and i never get tired of it. I've been asked since i picked up. Make pressure time. And i think you know at the end of the day. I mean literally the end of the day right now at the pain. It really gonna come from with them. You know i can makes them look good and i can do my best to make them feel good but it's up to. It's up to them to feel good right. Yes what do you have. You ever had that helpless. Feeling when like if dita's having a bad day and just like just doesn't feel great getting in front of the camera. Have you had that experience together. Like can sit. you know. i think. I mean i'll maybe you have a different memory that i've i've never seen that side of course there's times where it's like. Oh my gosh. it's it's we've been like deeded. I've travelled together and a lot of pressed together and it might be like day seven in japan and the jet last. Yeah you're tired. Whatever we're consummate professionals. That's the end and i i. I can read the room if see someone energy low. Or what have you like. you know. there's a little bit of a gesture at me and like let's make it fun. You know we're here today. Let's try to enjoy it. We've rolled our eyes together. We've laughed been so many so many different things. I think at the end of the damning. I i can't be responsible for someone's feelings but i certainly can show up as a professional and also let's. Let's make it fun. Let's try to enjoy this as much as we can feel like. I always just feel kind of you know i might drive my feet a little essentially. I have this weird thing where i go from like the maybe two to three hours of hair makeup. I'm dragging my feet going. I don't really want to get dressed now and starting at four but then you know as soon as i get. That first shot fine. You know we've also. I think we've done shoes that we're kind of hardcore like as far as i was going through a divorce and it was not easy but like it helps to be. That's that's where comes in handy to working with somebody that you really like because when things happen and you're having a terrible time in your life home life or whatever it is or there's something going on it's nice to arrive to people you know and you know can like do the make up the way you want to see. You don't have to like be like. I can't deal with this either right now. You know so. That's one reason. I think it's really important to assert yourself In say who you were with as the person who's who's being photographed and listen. I always say there's a difference between photographing models and models. Like that's their job to show up and be the model. I'm not a model you know. I'm usually there to either. You know a lot of things oppressing there to you know have it be part of an overall thing and i'm not getting paid so it should be a pleasurable experience. Not fortress yes tiffany if i can piggyback on that that's a good word No but really. I think that you know. I think it's bertram sponsor ability also to check in with someone k. Do you have do you like this. Like their shapes. We go bigger deep. You don't even being collaborative definitely. I definitely a convicted not felony. But no. I'm i have my victims but i'm also not a. It's my way or the highway. Kind of make us go important to collaborate and so important to respect. Somebody's brand again urged true. You know like to to keep it in that you know in that space and to make your on the same page. I can relate to that so much too because you know my way or the highway filmmakers as well and you know it's like you have to get them to do this and you have to get them to do that and you know an and i think in the same sense that you're talking about with makeup it's like was the point of that what you know what i mean. If that's not something someone wants to do. What joy do you get out of presenting that it doesn't make any sense to me. What good is it for you to do the makeup that you've always dreamed of doing on dita if she's you can feel the energy of her being just like you just pete all over me. I don't win vs gross but like but like you just did your thing all over me. Now i mean the thing about working with someone like geeta or some of the other women that i work with. I mean there there is an open mindedness and i realize i'm not saying that geeta is hassle. Look one certain way. I mean there is a little wiggle room here and there but i also to make sense has to make sense. Doesn't feel good. You gotta make sense to shoot the close to buy you know the list of and that's also going back to the silver fox. Look that's one of the most fun things about that shoe because you know. We played around with a a dusty. Aqua is in. That might just be one. I shouted somebody then sewing on this shoot. That kind of tells us whole story it when it starts to make sense you know. It's like wow the glasses when i now i'm such a. I thought gosh getting serious. Now for the real story between the silver. What do you do come on spill. The secrets here. How do you do that. Eighty net when somebody you know. When i was a child i'll i all i ever did was doodle eyebrow a cat i will beauty mark. It's like i meant what but it's true. I really did. And i loved eyebrows and looking at the relationship between a brow of staying. And we've done a couple of different types. Sometimes i it's more at the end of the our links come up like a little sort of parisian ballerina. But i always think kind of like elizabeth taylor mead's marilyn monroe image of of the brow and then you transfer that on to dida Pretty yeah yeah. And then i think groaned shape. And then how do you. I know that her skin. Because i've seen it without makeup on that it is not real skin. It is like something you could buy like for your kitchen. It's like porcelain. Get water i. It's la leak leak twenty km so deal. Do you have to use foundation though. But you do to even out the colors of courses thing what i love about. Everything is it really. Is the real life process. It's foundation it's powder it's their snaps to at its leg school. Make up routine you know and you know we sometimes for me personally. I've even with anybody. I've never really been a huge fan. Of course not opposed to it. You know there's little things here and there but for me it's more about highlighting and bring features forward. Every single person. I've talked to this week has said that it's so funny. Yeah i mean not like you know like like you know like of your caliber like the the highlight is the key. Not the contour. And i think that's you really do a great job with that. With data her the cheeks are always like it opens up the whole face but also to like when you think it's against the one lady we're just gonna talk about like you're you're not you're obviously and she's leaving right. No but i was gonna say when you think of how restrained and i you know the perfection of the book with the hair mistake in the clothing. Why wouldn't you want the skin to be elevated from that. I mean you know it's like let's just make everything sort of hybrid with the hallaq and it works. Yeah yeah yeah. Yeah i mean it's all it's illuminated not shiny right because you you put powder on today didn't you dida. Yeah but it still looks like your skin. You don't look matt at all to me. I think there's a difference between like what i do in real life from. What you on their sprite lights. How what are some times is that you do. I mean i try to use less foundation and conceal her hall that in real life or in a day life really but Burn tv video. You really got it like put on that studio six like honest eight. I've learned the hard way and all you have to do is watch the news in washington. I'm gone not power-down down properly but it's a real thing. That heavy makeup just looks better on tv but like i am very conscientious of making sure that i don't have too much. Because the kinda settles into lines and they can make you can issue kind of try You know especially like this. Last year i've been very like wearing minimal makeup than focusing on like you and my skin. Good maybe just a little conceal her. And you know a light sleeper powder. Maybe like a little blake. Moisturizing missed over the top fifth. 'cause i don't wanna feel like you know i hate because with light skin to is ink. It can look chalky sometimes. You have the wrong foundation or too many things son of light very conscientious about that. Although i love makeup so it kind of just depends on whether i'm being filmed or whether i'm just talking around the date right right. It's funny because my boyfriend is always like hey can't you. Can't you just like wear your cat. I am lips no foundation. Because he's like your skin amazing. And i was like what primary campaign something and if you don't crime than it's not gonna stay some always trying to explain that of why you can't just like quit the cat. I on with no like you know you have to have primer and powder is that primer and then he tried to his aides ball to you. How how the cat. I feel like it has the same life you know it can take. What's the longest you've spent doing her cat. I gregory and seconds is it no not imagine. How can i mean if i had to but i think there's always elements. They're like there could be a blink. There could be. Oh shoot my. My gel liner is a little drier than it was last week. And you know there's somebody different. There's a lot of difference. Maybe somebody might be looking down at their phone or out of the fastest cat. I in the west competition like all the fastest best cannot Competency your like. You've got five seconds. Go like working glow up when they have to do the minutes. I had some bad exacts the real that it just depends sometimes anything we have good days. Sometimes it's a little bit more of a struggle and you have to go back over. Thing is your favorite contracts. Blackjack mine too. that's most meets the flick of brow. That's what we always joke owns like. Wow it's like two millimeters away from touching by the way. Can you make that happen. Let's make that happen next. Where just connects though. Remember susie sue the eyebrow in the liner. I'm here for it whenever you want to do that. Let's call album for sure but like everything you know. There's it's funny because just like you know the old joke with the mega bartos were you know. Wow that's a really thick eyeliner you dead. Well i kept messing up. Who's going back to jim roope. Yes i've been there where i have to just take it all off myself. You know i'd just go go figure baker bigger bigger mayor. Oh my god. It's a nightmare. People don't know who don't have to go through it right What else can we talk about. Let me see. How long have we been talking about. Taking up your time so wary. Oh my god we've been talking for an hour at this you get. You're gonna laugh because my the light got all weird in here. So i'm holding my leg now. Here's it's like. I said i moved at noble starts. I'm just going to be right. You're getting dido is visited by god and now you're living and writing is done by elliott's no but i honestly this has been so refreshing for me. I can't even tell you you guys things under those wait. I mean. i can't believe how much i appreciated the waiting. And the going back and forth on all of this. And i just appreciate it so much and i'm going to trick you into doing something like this again for sure. A man especially when we get somebody to shoot that where it connects right here on the books but also be doing. I have nothing but time on. My well sanitized dan. I hear you until next time. I hope you guys had fun with us. Thanks for hanging out with. I wonder if you guys are watching on youtube. And you saw when those jesus reyes came through to dita's dressing room there. Let me know if you caught that because that was pretty amazing. Next week we have an amazing guest. How many times do you guys drink. Every time i say mazing. Just i mean. Listen i'm not gonna even go there because there's probably a lot of things that you have drinking game said to like how every time i laugh or every time i say interesting or every time i say meaning but he truly is amazing. And it's mario. Yes we're talking to mario a banovic and we'll be talking about An iconic look that he created for a certain iconic event. I'm sure you can guess what it is but there are so many to choose from and that was just one of many many many many many many many many incredible looks that we had to choose from. So we'll see then. Oh i wanted to mention that I m trying new product. And i'm gonna keep you posted about. How effective it is. It's a product that my girl nikki. Who does my brows records to me. It's called new brow. And i just started using it today and i'm going to be using it for the next couple of weeks and i want to share with you. How effective it is. Because i heard it is a miracle and i will tell you the truth. Take care and i will see you see. Look by luck is a vinyl foot production written by me. Your host tiffany bartok produced by j spartak and produced and edited by kelly. Reilly with audio engineering by nicole. Tucker if you're interested in learning more find video version on the youtube channel look behind the look podcast there. You can see rare photos and clips from our guests and please follow us on twitter at look behind pod an instagram at. Look behind the luck. If you liked the show please rate review and subscribe and tell your friends and spread the word you can subscribe to us on itunes or any pod catcher of your choice. Thanks for listening to look behind the look.

gregory dita rosen peter lindbergh Tiffany bartok liza minelli Troy surat Stefani victoria beckham san miller dida dida dida bauge eivind geeta mickey mouse Fran drescher national fashion magazine schule capital Tony medina
Fabien Baron

Design Matters with Debbie Millman

1:40:34 hr | 3 months ago

Fabien Baron

"I do miss putting a magazine together. I miss working with fog refers on editorial authorities. But i don't feel it's relevant. I don't i don't feel still proper tool to communicate fashion today from ted audio collective. This is designed letters with debbie moment for seventeen years. Debbie millman has been talking with designers and other creative people about what they do how they got to be who they are and what they're thinking about and working on on this episode. Fabien baron talks about his career as an art director and about the decline of fashion magazines. I mean it was all my clients. We don't talk about the page that's going to involve we talk about like instagram post. Hi this is adam grant of taken for granted this year. We worked with our sponsor jobs. Ohio to crowdsourcing thought provoking questions. We're all dealing with as the landscape of work continues to change stay tuned. Listen to my responses to. Sheila and lois who situations might not be so unique. Creative director is a catchall job description in the case of fabien baron. It doesn't catch all that he has done in his lustrous career. He's designed some of the world's biggest and most prestigious publications. He's designed books and perfume bottles and furniture. He shot and directed films. He's created some of the most memorable ad campaigns of the last forty years for clients including calvin klein dior and blend siaka and he's created singular groundbreaking looks for harper's bazaar toga italia and interview vanity fair once called him the most sought after creative director in the world. And indeed he is today. He joins me on zoom from paris france. Fabien baron. Welcome to design matters polls show you have such a lovely voice thank you. Thank you for being the photographer. Glen latchford has insisted that you are the elvis presley of graphic design. Oh my gods and wondering if you know why he stated that no. I don't know i'm sorry. I don t know that he even said no. Glenn quite well from those days the baghdad in operas bizarre and i deem to to work on the magazine into some stories and was one story. Actually that did that. I really liked they did. Was moss going around the city and forty second street and just like taking very report type of pictures. That were like really amazing. That's how glen. Yeah maybe it's the breakthrough groundbreaking part that he was referring to being. Your father. mark barron was a legendary art director. in paris. he worked mainly with two publications. He was the founding art director of the left-wing daily liberation and the sports daily liquid. Is it true that you were a newspaper delivery boy for the not very boy but You know. I've worked on my father. So i was really the go-to guy to do anything. In at the magazine it would be doing at the time. Like photostats which were like you know the the pictures and blow them up different sizes. Didn't okay i used to do that. And they used to do like make any calls like kind of like you know like putting the mechanics of the mechanical part of the magazine pages. You know and i was doing a lot of electro sets. I don't know if you remember that. Still i'd just is just for fun. I used to be really good at it. I used to be really good because you had to pick the size. He couldn't be like at two hundred percent so used to be really good at it could type something like exactly to the links won't in the size of by just guessing so it was fun game knowing that about you now. I could see how that training helped in the creation of some of your typographic constructions. You know there is a sort of puzzling to them and placing them all together in a way that. If i don't think he knew how to do that by hand you wouldn't be able to do it on the computer. Yes actually the first time. I did this kind of graphics i did. It was xerox machine. So a Vogue at the time like everything will have computers or anything so we had to work everything kind of like manually. So i used to take the phones and used as your machine and blow them up on your machine and collage the pc's by cutting them out. Basically you said that your father was super bright super smart and very educated. But i also understand that he was quite hard on you in your early days as a designer in what way i guess he wanted me to learn and learn the proper weber also learned the hard way because he wanted to make sure this is something. I was going to do something. I was going to to love in new like And when it's hard and you still in love that means it sticks right so i guess it was really tough in the way that we will use to work. I was responsible for everything everything every time there was a mistake. It was me even though it was not me so just wanted me to be responsible for everything so it was quite like not very gentle. Let's say i guess at the time you know like it was not like it is now like now. It's you have to be extremely gentle with people and you have to be extremely polite through proper. It was not like that with me. At least i read that your father felt that the objective of graphic design was to get the reader involved with the editorial content of the publication. And you talk about this quite a lot. But at the time you were also reading francine crescents. French vogue and you were enthralled by the photography of helmet. Newton guy bourdin. Did you feel that that was in conflict with what your dad was teaching. you know. actually. I didn't feel i was in conflict. I figures good like a proper balance. I think like is teaching was quite journalistic. It was quite like classic journalism and decem time of felt like having access to magazine like fringe folk. And you know like an all. This dog refers in looking at those visuals. I was really intrigued. How you would create such visuals so it was something that i was really like very like looking after like almost like you know like those magazines when they shopping house because they were like the visuals were exceptional and i really had no idea you would put this type of visuals together. Would create them. I mean the photography part and after like how you would come up with those idea those concepts and everything so it was like really like i was looking at that in extremely intrigued at the same time what was important that the time especially newspapers to past information the proper way and you know like to make sure like the reader woods understand what you're trying to say after a gigantic fight. I understand you left home and his supervision and you moved into your own apartment at that point you stated that he was still your hero and you still looked up to him but it took years before you were both fully reconciled. What did you fight about. I don't remember. I don't remember what the fight was about. But i know that i left that day. I really i don't recall at all. I mean this isn't the case most of the time you don't remember what the fight is about what you remember like did i didn't i did. I definitely left and it was a wide before like not that long either. Because i like tim in the like me. I was quite upset. I was not so happy about it to be honest. It's not a good memory that part but it was time for me to go. I mean some kids live their parents nicely and some don't leave. The parents nicely ultimately said that the relationship with your father gave you a sensitive how to treat people. What do you feel that. He most you in that regard. I think what we re give me a good sense of what this job was about a good sense of being a deep down you have to remain journalist to certain degree in anything into you have to make. It's gotta make sense. It's going to be understood and you've got to be clear. But also i think he gave me a discipline and a work ethic that i don't think i would have gotten if he was not through him. The level of discipline in which i work is quite surprising for some people. I've heard it. I'm very keen and it's a search to perfection to kind of like trying to really find that place which is difficult to find that really. I think perfection is quite good word even though you have understood that you can obtain perfection but you can come close to it but any of these because he can obtain that you continue to search for it but you know like that puts you into a certain category of people that you understand that this becomes life and that you're going to be professional about it a little bit like an athlete. I do anything to make it right. Basically just like an athlete with wake up at four o'clock in the morning if they won't need to train so i'm very similar i. I'm ready to do anything to make this right. So part of why i get result is because of that discipline. I think if i would have the discipline i wouldn't have done that. Many things i would have been is eaten into trying new mediums and i think it stat but also that need that search to perfection. That allowed me to experiment and try new medium quite easily without hesitation. You attended our appliques in paris for a year before dropping out. What made you decide to leave school. At that point. I was wasting my time a new pretty much what i wanted to do and i don't know if i wanted to be in our director because my dad was director in a way to show him that i be a better director the name or if it was because i really knew the calling so i mean that one i still cannot answer really but i knew what i wanted to do. That's for sure. So knowing so clearly what i wanted to do. I didn't want it to west my time so even though at the time that year had very good friends i did was like kind of lovely to be at school and to experiment different places and do different work because like this other kid. The graphics fiji Textile drawing painting modeling to so many different things that you know and that was quite know interesting. I didn't feel. I needed to do it and i needed to work right away. I was already even with my father helping him do certain things so i felt like you know like i'm gonna do this couple of years. I'm going to waste my time and as well go to work and like go at it right away and really learn the real job that i wanna do. You also got your first camera when you were seventeen years old. And you've stated that while art direction is how you make your living photography remains your personal love. Guess what motivated you to become professional creative director versus is becoming a professional photographer at that time in your life. I guess that's my father. My father would have been knocked probably would have said like. I want to be knocked. The think that's what it is. Because you know right now you would tell me. Would you like to be an architect. I would say yes i mean. There's so many things that would like to be like the mediums of anything that touches with art. In general they kind of like all kind of overlap a learned throughout the years and experimenting with different mediums. That actually the most important thing is not you know the medium itself. It's more the point of view that you have. And now you want to express it and mediums are easier to express your point of view than others so the dog was something that i felt really close to myself. Probably because of this franchise will dog refers the keyboard on the new ton that was looking at and actually the first time. I got my camera. The things i was doing is i was going with my sister around keyboard on pitcher. We'd like. I wouldn't make something very similar. And like i would do pitches like that. It was saturated colors and i didn't have a flash so didn't work perfectly but i was experimenting and wanted like i was really intrigued by the imagery size of magazines rather than the journalistic side of magazines so my my training was being vigilantly listed. There was this other side that actually was taught by my dad that was deposed old process of making and that started by taking pitches for myself and then as when along it gets more and more i got involved on the art directing side of making image then. I became the art director. That was good with type in good images so there was a definite conflict because of the photographers in the level of dog a ended up working on letter on for me to also be thuc from right. There was kind of like a conflict of interest to some degree. Like why these guys being on set with us e. seeing everything we do and then he's going to take pictures and maybe he's gonna take features like us so there was that this kind of conflict going on and i wanted to be really respectful of that so i never really involve myself as a photographer in my early years as an auditor is much much later on that i decided okay but maybe i should do a story and that's that was really hard step for me to take why because of what i just told you like the conflict that conflict of interest. I was afraid that photographers would start seeing me as you know. Competition rather than seeing me Someone helping them to find that that was the case. No it was all in my head. I guess so as we saw in the meantime did a lot of personal work. That's why i put myself doing like you know. Landscape photography and start. Doing work of the was not fashion related and it was at the same time. I mean you just happened to be that way. I think it was good because allowed me to experiment. Something else. something that was not fashion. Something that was not related to a model and related to a style. Yeah you've said that when you are confronted with restrictions you sometimes do your best work and so maybe this restriction of not photography dot doing photography and fashion gave you this opportunity to explore something that you wouldn't have otherwise also forced myself into doing to step in repeat meaning like taking your picture and going over and taking the same pitcher pitches in pitcher and kind of trying to look for that perfection of it and to see the difference between each one of them. Salad say that your ocean pictures certainly do that. The certainly do that and the been going on since nineteen eighty three and still catch myself doing some some sometimes in one thousand nine hundred eighty two girl you knew from new york came to visit you in paris and you ended up falling in love you then decided to move with her back to new york so you soldier motorcycle you submit your apartment and with only three hundred dollars in your pocket. You moved to new york. City screw was living was living in new york. Something you'd always hoped to do or was this a spontaneous decision after falling in love the where group in france i mean actually the way most kids my age in france. There were quite americanized in many ways. Like you know. The music was coming from the states and from london. The movies were coming from america. The culture was very much in american culture and anything that was new was coming from there. So i felt i was not not not in in the courtyard with the other kids playing. I felt i was in the courtyard. You know basically are getting the scraps of from courtyard with it. So i'd say no that feeling. Well i thought it was much better to just check it out in the. Us especially new york there was like this aura around it around the new york at that time like in the eighties. That was that was really amazing. I just wanted to go there yeah. I'm a native new yorker. But i didn't move to manhattan until nineteen eighty-three so we know exactly what you're talking about him about a year or so behind you and new york at that point seems to be sort of this mystical magical place aside from your girlfriend you knew. Only one person in new york the great very unique fiene. She's also been on the show. The art director at the time from women's wear daily. How did she help you. did she help you. Sort of get settled in the magazine community What what happened is actually i was freelancing in this magazine in france is fashion magazine in france and very nick via an was asked to come and redesign the magazine and when she came she. Had you know graphic formula and you know right away. I kind of like you know. Attacked her in like you like worked with her really rapidly and tried to showed show masculine next she. She was really impressed. That would understand so quickly what she wanted to do. We got on on the right foot but rapidly. I told her you know like. I really wanna continue. I really wanna come to. Can i come to new york. And so a bugged dirt to come to new york and she basically invited me. I'm chad choice. I was like relentless. Like what a surprise so invited me even though she was about to move to california and she bided me and stead with her. And i've worked boomers where daily. And i was kind of like nintendo aaron instead two months and then i went back to france in the mid time during my time in new york. Made these this girl that you mentioning and a year later. She should up in paris. And that's when. I decided i decided. Oh let's let's go back to new york and check it out. And i wind back and then i just knew her and her partner at the time called him hoped at three hundred dollars. I called him up. And you know very near. Vienna was already in san francisco so she was not part of of this but like e basically organize a meeting for me a couple of people in new york but one of the meetings was actually. Was alex liberman. So which was like a great pitching and i knew we was. I was impressed by he was and i not the meeting. And when when i came seem At the time it was the on the vogue floor yet an officer you know like we met any spoke french right away he said. Let's on pensee hoppy. I knew was why because my english at the time. Let me tell you. What's not that good. So we spoke in french and he was very fond of french. People and very funding my work because up showed in my portfolio at the time. And he said what you wanna do said i would like to be become an automatic would like to inaugurated i'd love to work at conde nast and and he said Well have you heard of. This magazine was starting to magazine. It's cold vanity fair. I like it would be very nice. If you want to meet was the art director and cbs' you guys get along so you send me to. At the time the art director was lloyds. If and i met with him. And we talked and e like me very much and logically at the job. But then i got a phone call from alex. Lieberman said well lloyd's if he's not going to stay with us any longer so divinity fair gig is not going to happen. Don't disappear. I'm going to find you. You've got to stick around here. I'm gonna find you something else in the meantime and then you put me on self magazine. Yeah so i. I graduated college in nineteen eighty three and in nineteen eighty-two vanity fair had been relaunched and i thought it was the most glorious magazine in recent history just the idea that this was a beautiful arts and literary magazine that david. Hockney socks and feet. Were put on the cover of philip. Roth was on the cover. I desperately wanted to work in vanity fair as well and being a very young designer coming from a state school in new york. I knew the chances were very slim. But i set my portfolio into candy as well. This is nineteen eighty-three so the year later. After you and i got a call back from charles church ward who was then the art director. Those does koreans. I didn't meet with trump. Who i met with human resources. The human resource woman did not like me. So i didn't get the job but the idea that the art director at the time thought there was something in my portfolio. Really really bullied me for quite a long time. So it's so funny. How life has its circuitous. Turns one thing. I didn't know about you at all and had no idea fabian. I read that your first job in new york was actually johnson. Johnson working design for their internal magazine. I was shocked. But i also had it. That's true my friend Him hope to get that job to me. He said oh. I heard like giovanni joined to an internal magazine and they need the design. And did you know like the zero for them and it was great was like painting cash. Nice speaking of being paid in cash after looking at your portfolio didn't alexander lieberman love your photography so much that he ended up buying threes dollars worth of photography of the brooklyn bridge during that meeting. Also like you know. They were older work. I've done in france in magazine but there was also like to pictures taken maino myself and some of them in new york and so this brooklyn bridge pitchers and they were doing an article in house and garden on the brooklyn bridge and i think it was for the sentinel or something like that at the time. I don't know exactly. I got to be for that. But i remember like this. Oh you gotta go see rochelle adele. She works at our garden. Let me give her a ring and you got to go to see her and show those pitches. So i went to see rochelle. She was at house and garden and she looked at the pictures and to say. Oh these are lovely. We can we keep them for the bit. Then it took like four or five pitches and then you. I get a phone call from saying like oh actually like the the pictures that they're going to be running a really. Yeah and they paid like three thousand dollars speaking. I couldn't believe so basically. That was my first experience as a photographer working for publication in america. And then when you went to self you also worked with richelieu dell. Is that correct. She also worked for the magazine. She became a little bit. Like a miniature alex lieberman. She was working. I think she had self magazine. I think she was also up at mademoiselle. She was kind of like like alex. Lieberman's right task and she would come in and look over all the pages and then liberman would come in and look at the pages and we have to make sure that everything was well organized like each picture was supposed to be from this side which was very small to a double page side. And then you would play. Was things had a really like my time. Magazine g. q. Working was mayor shanahan's director and matama self magazine really like couldn't wait for these moments. Where would show up and michelle would show up kind of like shuffling everything around some part of it probably just to shovel and part of it to make more sense of the stories to learn so much about like what you can do. It was a story like are you can was editing. Sizing was putting things one when and other. Why would that be better and that to me. Like tidied up so nicely. Was all the things that i learned from my dad about the journalistic side of our. You put something together. So it's complete so it makes sense so there's a logic to it but there's also an artist about it when i was there itself and you know it's not that self was fantastic magazine. That's when i really like said while. I'm really liking this this i can. I was eating it up like there was no tomorrow and i loved it. I loved it. And like when i ll expert. Come you know like some designers will put patriots together was smaller guy in the corner and i would think like. I wonder how lieberman's going to change that. Maybe he's going to do this but he's going to do that. Maybe he's gonna. It was really intriguing to seem calm and change everything around but in education. The boasts intriguing. Part was that every time it was right. It was right people were so you have no idea designers. Were like crying over like the not crying literally like you like so upset that the layouts change and everything i was thinking but he's right and we had arguments argument some of the staff. I remember but much better in makes sense. Now it makes sense the stories better and people get like really like attached to their own work. I guess yeah. What a magnificent thing to be able to witness and to learn and be part of alex g. q. And you mentioned that you worked with our director. Mary shanahan and i read that she. You've said that she helped you clearly. Understand how an image can function. And i'm wondering if we talk a little bit about what that means and what she taught. Well i think she was the one who appeared on top of the i by saying like pushing this idea of the point of view that everything comes down to point of view everything comes down to vision and to a to express that vision in a very simple manner and i think that i learned that from her and she was very a definite about that. I think like really felt like oh complete. The circle here like the understanding of like to pass information the proper way in a practical way for my father and being a journalist understood the artistry and shuffling. And what you can do as an image and now you can say something in this way if you make the image decides on this way if you make the mich this is a little bit like the complete approach to the build up of a magazine but then a learn from mary that oh this is great but what is it. That is inside image. And what is that point of view and now to pass on that information as an art director into the dog refer so that point of view is palatable relevant and on point and that i felt like ooh i can't be an auditor straits and then the left i know i know and then and then lieberman was really pissed so after a year and a half g q betty carter. The former editor of esquire and the newly minted editor of a brand new magazine called new york woman. Invited you to become the founding art director. And i remember when the magazine i came out i actually had a friend who worked there as a copy editor and there was so much excitement about the launch. And i read that. You had many epic battles over the tone of the magazine you wanted to be cool and clean and they wanted it to be warm and cozy which seemed very odd for a new york woman type magazine. How did you manage looking back on it. How would you describe that time. Well well yes. I remember you mentioning that. Yes that's true. Add a couple of Battles with some of the stuff but not was betsy really. Because i think betsy understood at you know like it was late. Eighty s late eighties. S new york. City come on like the time. The city was the coolest was the place was the center of the world. I mean if anything and anything that was happening was happening in new york. So of course. I wanted to best photographers. Of course i wanted you know like the thing to be the coolest thing possible. Yes there was. It was american express was doing the magazine. Show is big. Let's say and but we we went against that. I think ni- yes. We different wanted the magazine to be cool to be like you know quite fashiony. At the time i remember. If that's the first i worked. Peter lindbergh was that new york woman. And that's the first time actually. Peter lindbergh Worked in america and then other talk. I like patrick. Demarchelier work there. Like spiel mccall package you know cast for at the time that were working for forecasts at sani. They were working in europe. More actually european stock strangely enough because also like mr lebron was not up left communist. He had he said he had plans for me. And i didn't want it to wet those plans and it was really upset was really upset and i couldn't use any of the doctors that were working for communist so at to go in europe and get the photographers from europe in the cool ones frame so that was a battle and i was winning that battle and it was really cool like i was bringing like all these newer interesting photographers and the magazine get noticed. The magazine was was stunning. I have waiting to ask you this question for thirty something years. The logo new york woman very long elegant serif face the w in woman was larger than the rest of the letters often in color on the third stroke of the w the sender was cut off. So tell me what the decision was about that. So if you remind you of something i've been obsessing about for god's don't even know what to talk i know your dad okay so here you go see us. See yeah backwards. The last one was there was no tail. I think i was sender every issue so it was intentional. Yeah the local thinking. That was the only letter that was doing that. It was the m. must've got that way to know Let's see as well. I'm looking online. Dec- nope chest. That pesky little leg on w well listen. I have no idea why w end end. The w in new also didn't have it but it was slightly connected to the why sent the center in the new york. Look at it and tell me. Because you're thinking i remember clearly that i didn't like the fact like new york was written that big and that the the name was new york woman was too long and i wanted to make. New york's small inside the woman I wanted die to be the logo. Now it's time for an ad. I created with our sponsor lexus. Kina scott the second. I am a now officially a broadway. Playwright and i'm a hybrid. Art is on an artist. All around keenan is a ted fellow and his play. Thoughts of a colored man will be the first new play to debut. Since broadway's shut down over a year ago. I talked with him about how empathy guides all of his work. But i love and life was drawing and painting. Eventually in my teenage years i stumbled across our form of poetry and then when i got to college i decided to study acting when i started learning the great american plays and you see myself represented. I wanted to create something that me and my peers can unapologetically outselves and that small novel idea. I had ended up turning into thoughts of a color man. Play that's preparing on broadway. I ran an op. Ed that you wrote in american theatre magazine about the motivation behind thoughts of a colored man and you stated this. My ultimate goal was to foster empathy. Because i wanted to be seen. I wanted to help. Create a world in which the lives of black men were as valuable as their white counterparts. Fueled by angst like an architect. I began to piece together. Fragments of poems monologues and thoughts. I had written out poured the first draft of the play that would become thoughts of colored man. Keenan why has empathy been so important to you and to this play in particular. I didn't realize that. I was weaving in the element of empathy and my characters until i started hearing responses from people witnessing my work and i started to realize when people would tell me how much they learnt from seeing these black men in their environment not necessarily attached to discrimination racism but really seeing these men in everyday life and seeing him engaged with each other so very early on. I knew empathy was very important for me in my work. Because i would hope that if anybody read anything from me or sore any of my productions they learnt a little more than they knew before they came in the door so they might look at that young man sitting at a bus. Stop a little different. They might look at that. Grocery store worker a little bit different. They might see that man. That's riding on the train with them. Just a little bit different. So empathy is very important for me. And i think it's very important for us just as human beings. How would you define empathy empathy for me is the understanding and care for something or someone. That's unlike you. How are you able to create empathy in your work. I tried to write from the most authentic in truthful place. That i can in being truthful in my work doesn't mean that my carrots is all my stories are going to be perfect because where we're not perfect human being's right so i don't create my characters to be perfect. I create them all be flawed and in those flaws. That's where we see humanity. What is your advice for. People trying to develop a greater sense of empathy tried to surround yourself in talk to immerse yourself in situations in things that are unlike you. There has to be an effort. Put in to building empathy by taking yourself out of your comfort zone in out of your own personal community wherever that community is. I think once that door opens. It's such a beautiful beautiful thing to be able to open your mind and your spirit to things that's unlike yourself. Lexus also believes that empathy emerges when you focus on people and leads to innovation the lexus. Ls was inspired by humans. An engineer to a higher standard the human standard visit lexus dot com slash l. s. that's l. e. x. u. s. dot com slash l. s. to learn more he mentioned crossing alexandra lieberman and you said that he was very upset that you left. He told you that he had big plans for you. He was crossed that you left but he was really crossed later. Really crossed when you turn down the job to work at american vogue so i guess that he revealed his big plan. Because when i left you was crossed in the but he always said to me that the best way to move up incontinence is to leave the nest to come back. And that's what i told them. When new york woman but referred to lieberman. You told me that the best way to go up and coming us was leaf convinced and come back so maybe i come back and that was that was. My conversation wasn't but in the meantime it really at block me from using any of the photographers which was good support. You know sarah anyway after new york women and while i was doing new york woman because i think that was a year and a half e cold means office any proposed to me to become the director art director of american vogue and irish us. I turned it down. I turned it down because i failed. The magazine was not in the right place. It was not the right moment as in feel like the editor was doing the right job at the time and always felt like you have to work for the right editor. If it's not the right editor is not going to be right. Even though like in the right position get the right title in the right place but if did not good it's not gonna be good and the story and at the time it was bella and i think felt like she was on the last leg and he wanted me there to alpo to redesigned the magazine to give a boost to do something with focus and i felt like wait a minute if i go there and this is not happening. It's not gonna go well and that's it. You know the turned him down and it was quite ballsy of me to do that. Because you know like usually. Don't turn down maddox lieberman and it was a little bit upset. Then a week or so after that i got a phone call and i don't know if it was related through mr lieberman. Not but i got a phone call from france from french vogue the asking me to be the art directors french and i turned it down as well. I felt like. I didn't want to go back to paris giving up on america now because like the going back to france that been like you have to go back. You have to be there. You know like it's not like it is now like you can work from from anywhere on the planet after Yet to be physically present to make something happen and that was really not in the mood from that to be back in paris and work again in paris it was too early was i think like four years or three years after i was in new york and i didn't feel like a had like made in new york ed so i turned it down and you know again was not liking what french will look like and that was not liking was going on with the magazine at the time. For what. Whichever reason did alexandra lieberman think you were crazy. Turning down both french. Vogue and american folk. I didn't discuss it was him. But i remember. Did your friends and family thank you. Yes my friends that worked in the business. Everything you say my god you crazy. You've you stunned down to vokes. That's that's insane you crazy like you should take that first one. You should marican vote. Nevertheless two weeks later three weeks later. I got a phone call from Franck castle sunny was just hired to do that. Invoke and that a took on the spot because franco because if the opportunity with attend because of daddy because exactly because of the editor because francke was someone that was really admiring for what she had done. Lay and pearl louis and she was doing such a good job where it using the same photographers you know. She was using steven. Meisel was using stephen mozelle like she was using. Peter was using. Peter like we were using that we had a felt we had the same vision but things and she was like a a real true in the way she would approach a magazine and to meet that make sense is that part is like oh my god. I can't believe she's calling me. She was the one. I was really liked admiring so it was not difficult for me to say yes. I didn't even think about it. I said yes she said like you know like you come to milan and work. Yes i took the job spot. I didn't even think if it was complicated. It would be just took the job because it made sense was interesting in the whole process is to turn down to votes to get a third one and to get the right one at the moment because he vogue was the right one at the moment because what happened afterwards grass maher got fired from american vote so that would have been my loss fringe will simply happen at fringe will someone. Replies however was the editor at the time and the whole thing collapsed and italian vogue on the contrary was like a huge success and a new thing. So sometimes you you really have to follow you guts and your feelings about something in not impressed by names and by surroundings just because so. I'm glad i made the decision. Did you think that you'd be able to have more impact working with franca at italian. Vote off totally totally. Because i think like she gave me cut deblanc in the way the magazine could look but she gave me carte blanche but everything she was saying was bringing my ears like some like amazing music. Everything she was saying was bright on the money and she really was the one that opened my vision and allowed my vision to express innova very direct way on the page magazine. She really was the first one said. Okay do it. And she was beyond me and she pushed me. She didn't settle off way. And all the people around around inner team like grad noon show. That was the editor in chief at the time for. You know like the editorial part the magazine. Everybody at the magazine. Were thinking the same so you felt part of a team and that was led franca sultani in a way that it was impeccable and move perfect team going forward going with the same goal and all in the same direction and the was paid off. Francke can definitely the most sought after editor in the world for fashion and style and she had way of putting things together. The were unlike anyone else. Those magazines now are really considered collector's items tolan. The magazine sort of became a laboratory for edgy. Experimental photography and design. And you've stated that when you were working with franca is really when you learned about fashion. And i was wondering if you could share what the what was the biggest thing. She taught you remember franca. She would take me around to see all the designers. I would go to the shows with our like you know. She would take me around the discussion. I remember when i did. We did the first issue she said. Okay come with me. And we're going was the magazine to see mr money so but went to mr money. We presented the magazine to haymond. She was talking any tiny and that was understood enough. Little bit of it learned italian afterwards but he was really interesting to be put directly into the people that were making the fashion designers to be really working directly with them and to be part of the fashion system so directly. I think like you know like the way she was working. She was working unison. With all the designers she would like do always stories on them and she was like really like said she was the second year she was like the head of a table and she would like kind of like deal. The cards You know and for designers being Vote was very important. It meant a lot to stock refers. Shoot their story and their clothes. I think was very important at the time It was really meaningful. And she was she was holding the deck of cards and she would play hard and She was really like a good leader in that she was the voice of italian fashion. In many in many ways and to contact with the directly there was all what it meant was all the people that is marketed deters like it it is like you know like the fashion editors it is all the people working for the designers like you would understand the structure and fashion was built it. Was you know like. I remember going to mutual product and having this discussions franca there and mutual talking to franchini. Talion saying like You know i'm thinking. I'm gonna do boomers collection. You know to franca. And she was sleeping bags on the time and like she had taken the the business from from parents. And i remember very clearly the discussion. She had with franco. And i was there and like i remember like ask you know i mean if you ask me i would. Of course you should. Of course you should because we know the french guy that lived in america working italy. He can do anything. Everything's possible also told her. Like yeah you. I think it's great that you do closing. Why now and she was like you know how like you know like that francke was involved in type. Discussion was the desire. So i think she was really like when you see like someone like mitchell product. We had such an influence in the world of fashion. She she had that importance. You know i remember meaning was thought to gabbana. I remember like You know meetings everyone teddy time. It was fantastic. It was fantastic. It was two years but after two years of of being detained. Vogue really difficult for me to go back and forth and to steal deal with my clients had some freedoms clients in in new york. I was like two weeks two weeks there and you not the time i mean it's not like i was flying business or you know like it was not easy. It was very it was much more complicated. You had to be end zone. And like i would be nearly two weeks to get my life there and like you know and but i was also like in new york and it was. It was complicated. It was complicated. And after two years of it i left to pursue other things barron and barron was born in one thousand. Nine hundred ninety. You came back to the united states. Dr was after interview magazine. Yeah so i went back. Basically and my friend glenn. O'brien said all you know the looking for someone at interview magazine and at thaw deterring british was an art form. Would you be interested and job. And you've had a real on again off again relationship with the magazine. She i hired you and nineteen ninety ingrid but she fired you a year or so later because this is what i've read The graphics were dominating the magazine. Yes i guess and then in two thousand. And you returned with glenn o'brien and took on the editorial director role which you had until twenty eighteen. What was that first year and a half. Lake working to reinvigorate andy warhol's magazine while there was a very interesting time in the in the life of the magazine because they dwell just died and increased issue is taking over the magazine and we wanted it to be different. So i don't think meet-and-greet got along really well like in the direction in which the magazine and was supposed to go. We didn't see eye to eye. And that's where. I was like missing franca sunny. I was making missing from franca like for our like distinctive in our like precise now on point she was and like i felt like everything she was saying like with golden. That's okay that's working. That's working when on the other hand. Ingrid's ideas. I didn't feel where applicable for magazines in the same way shedding approach was. Not something. I was understanding. It was not my cup of tea by you know in in a way but still it was interesting because you know like graphically and the way the magazine looked was interesting so i was fine with that but i guess she didn't think it was fine. I guess we didn't get along. I wouldn't fight but did she didn't understand what was about. And i don't think i really appreciated what she was about either. At the time we cut to each other better after she was stealing interview was a bizarre by them. And you know like. I grew to respect her and she grew to respect me as well. We have different point of views. And that's fine and that's why it's important like to go back to the point of view for good magazine. One point of view you cannot have different points of view. That's when the mexican becomes so frenetic and understandable for people and i guess when i interview a day even know like i really liked but it looked like it didn't make sense for what it was for what she wanted to do so i think it was better. We didn't continue together. Was that the first time you've ever been fired. Yeah it was. It was a strange feeling. I was upset at first. But then i'm bones of whatever let grad move on. And that's why right away like you know like i started my company fight like the day left interview started my company because i was doing a lot of freelance anyway so at clients. I was thinking bonnie's volcano advertising. Some many advertising admit all these designers in italy and i was like doing freelance for them and all the other things that felt like. Let me start my company like you know. Maybe i don't wanna work for magazines magazines complicated. They really take everything under you feet. They really like grab all that. They require a tremendous amount of work. And the not that good so like i was really disappointed was magazine is certain way so i said like i'm not going to work for magazine again. I'm going to stop my company. I started my company sinful right away. Which was good and i'd moved on. I moved on to quite rapidly. And you know. I remember going to the shows and singing agreed and i was fine. I know ingred. How are you blah blah. And we didn't all the grandch- you know like i was. I was fine. I'd moved on. And that's when i got the phone call for disposal. Yeah i've to a year after. I left interview. Something like that right before before we get to bizarre. I want to talk to you just a few projects that you did back at the beginning of barron and barron one of your first jobs was with issey miyake. And you designed his first fragrance. And you've said that fragrances of the strangest accounts to work on that. They're the most abstract form of advertising that. There is an wondering if you took a little bit about why you feel that way when other time you know when you say cold. I know that he said love what i was doing at time for. He said it was like really like impressed. In the where. I was putting the magazine together. Instead we gotta find a way to work together. Sure lovely. That be great then. I started my company. Then i get a phone call from him. I said thank you have you. Have you know like we should work together. If you ever done a fragrance bottle. I said no. I never done that but that must be so interesting. I love to do it. I love i love fragrance. i love the i. Look the object by itself is really. It's the item that most people are a lot of people get access to i find it a very democratic. You know like it's one of the first things you can buy from a designer brand. Is the fragrances lipstick or makeup or beauty item nfl. I was really interesting to participate into the vision of a designer and into creating this object that if success fool can become quite called right And generational i mean. I was thinking at the time like chanel number five. Oh my god. What did he do for chanel like. It's unbelievable so i was. I was really really intrigued by the question of the bottle. So you know like you said. Can you come to paris as he sure i can come to. Paris put me on the plane. And i was in paris and basically like we talked and went onto design the ball. Which is one of the most successful and long running designs and fragrances of our time. And you've since designed over forty different bottles for forty different fragrances. And have stated that one of the problems with developing a new fragrance is the name and of jokingly stated that all. That's left her. Name's lake fief memory. Jealousy and pirate actually run out of names. It's it's incredible like to name. A fragrance is interesting gypsies mahbub. Maybe i'm sure but you know what i'm sure that name is is someone owns that every single word in the dictionary is taken its case. Either you go to whomever owns it and buy back or you know you kind of like put words together up tim. Jealousy shades of jealousy shave a jealous. But it's naming is very is. It's a nightmare and i've i've named a few and it's a nightmare it's really it's really naming any names some pharmaceuticals and it's a nightmare like the words taken. Where's we're taking in. You know like that's something visual like you can do something. New can invent a word even though like the car. That's what they do. Best wad some industries. They have to invent words that don't exist that lets easiest way now to create a name is to just make something that has never been uttered a oftentimes though. That's hard because it ends up sounding so far in that nobody really has any attachment to it. Yes and like the you know. The problem with the fragrance is like in needs to strike on an emotional level immediately. So and so. That's the tricky part like any emotion in the dictionary is they can for short fifteen times around fifteen brands. You also have calvin klein lunch. Because i also didn't know at the time that his fragrance had launched to very little fanfare. You helped him relaunch. Ck one and then went on to help shape. Everything for calvin for several decades. Fabian is a treat. You introduced calvin to kate moss. Yes what happened. Was calvin e cold me when i was that operas bizarre and yes we need to do is logo is. I need a logo to put on the back of the jeans. And i wanted to say. Ck can you come up with something and designed that seek it'll and you liked it very much and That's how my relationship started with him and then he started well. Can you look at different colors that logo because if we do in the batman so came up with all ranch of colors and all the whole thing and then he called me something else and then another thing and then all can you look. We are doing jeans campaign and started working on the company. He went gradually but surely in the space of like a six months. I came from not knowing. Calvin klein into almost leaving wisconsin klein. It was an amazing experience. Because this guy. I just think like him. I just love the everything was saying. I know what you know what you know exactly what you're saying. And he was like so unafraid to try things that were not the proper thing to do to do things in a way that were very visible but was an extreme sense of And a very precise way to execute it. He understood media. He understood out to communicate visually a dream. That people wanted hounded kate. Moss fit into that dream because she was quite an unusual model. For that time she was not the fac- would've associated with high fashion. She was short or not short as in the scheme of things but shorter than most models. What happened is we put kept moss In the first issue of operas bizarre. I first issue with lean down the cover but moss opened for story of bizarre. So she was like she was already. I you know like bazaars mascot and then calvin cold me again instead like oh fabian. Like i would love to use venezia parody for my jeans but she turned me down and look at the venice parody and look at look at that picture that he had showed me to see. Was the pitch of vanessa. Party sitting on the grey background. And it kind of like you know. Like crouching down. Who's a pair of jeans and a white shirt. I think she was over t shirt something and she was just like slouch. She and i said wait a minute. Wait a minute. I said okay. Abroad kit moss and the what i did is a toke. It much to come in the room and said i. Can you see like on the floor to that. Pitcher and she sat on the floor in front of calvin klein and calvin can turn to me and it goes like this. I say yet. Yeah see and he hired her and history was made a loved her but also the thing is like kit at the time was like there was something very innocent better but there was something very mischievous about her. There was like everything. She was like a flower explode. I dunno explain it and she was oozing cool but just being there whatever she was doing could see each could like stance could like the where she would move like she was losing cool and cavin went crazy on like in the second put under contract immediately and it was. It was cut and calvin klein moment. She's written about everyone. Thought she should fix her teeth. But you what did people think. We're wrong with her teeth. I don't know. I don't know what's a cut you crazy. I love you teeth like that's part of you. Don't change or beauty is imperfection. A beauty is that she's petite or like Shorter legs a beauty is that she's a little bit that's mine. She's a bit crooked is a bit like you know like izzo imperfection you know this. Most amazing person and our soul is worn own outside. And the you beat that you know. And that's what you see so you you choked you. Definitely sean buyer. She wrote a wonderful wonderful forward to your monograph comrades in being mischievous together which is really love those so you've mentioned harpers bizarre a few times. I remember the day. I got my harper's bazaar your first harper's bazaar welcome to the age of elegance with the a sort of in linda hand. It is one of the most glorious magazine. Relaunches of our time you worked with the legendary editor the great the late great elizabeth tilberis. You and liz completely revived harper's bazaar in doing so created what many believed to be the most beautiful magazine in history. You've said that. Liz tilberis is real. Talent was that she was not scared of talent. This do you find that people in leadership positions are fearful or intimidated by grace great especially in the industry. I would imagine where it's so holding onto. A job is so hard. I think a lot of people in the business see talent as a competition to their point of view i think lease was smart enough to surround self was very very talented people and she would take everybody's point of view and make it. Airport view squish was amazing. And the only thing you wanted to inner all abilities to do anything she would do that was and was lots of love and the only thing you wanted to do is to please. Yeah and to give her what she wanted but she would let you use your talent to achieve that. And that's amazing. She ask you to be someone else. How competitive was harpers bizarre. At the time with the redesign and relaunch a vogue that was happening with our winter was it was war. Was i mean i think like the number of contracts between two occasions and conde nast implications for the photographers the fights. We had to get to the photographers because the understood that you know we needed to stock i. It was really really the most competitive time in magazine making that have existed. And i did enjoy. We give winter run for money out. How did she react to. Linda of being on the cover of harper's bazaar she didn't like it because like the minute operas bizarre was happening. The veto was the veto. Was like impose it was like. This is it this is war and like in the models like the models wouldn't give up so we had to do with what to do everything to do with put stoppers under contract to talk to model but to talk to everyone. You gotta do it very important. We're going to put you on the cover. I will you do it. Like was petrified to go against the nas. We did it and he did it well. The interesting thing about harpers bizarre under your tenure with liz was that it sort of juxtaposed two words that you generally didn't see together. It was elegantly provocative. You were able to be controversial and edgy. But also at the same time very elegant and in in almost formal. In that. I i read that. When if you're matas many don't know if it still is but one of your mother's at the time was to minimize maximally. And i was wondering if you can talk about how you know when something is minimized maximally. Well yes i think deep down. I'm a minimalist and yet you know like fashion like bizarre him about in the grunge years so we're fashion became kind of like more poor and more normal and more like and but then after that that nina glamour cam came about again so well. Fashion is not automatic. It's kind of a maximal thing is not plain and simple. If you see what. I mean like right Even though you have like some shield sanders and people like that like you know that embraced that that profession but in general. It's it's a world that is is not subtle bizarre. We try to stay somewhere. Classic therefore understandable yet. I mean we pushed it quite far in some of the ideas that were kind of like extreme so it was extreme yet it was classic so there was always that balance and elegance was always part of the game that he needed to be absolutely beautiful. Like we felt like you. Could you could package any idea as long even if it was art concept of something difficult to understand if it was packaging beautiful way people would understand it better. It would be closer to them. The be more acceptable. So maybe that's what i call. Minimum maximalism minimized maximally. Liz tilberis very tragically died of cancer. You left shortly thereafter. Because you're so heartbroken glenda bailey took over and it was recently announced that she would be leaving. After many decades a new editor has just been announced. I read that you were in the consideration for the editor in chief position. Is that true too. But i never got it from both so i think it's not at all these different rumors. Go around to be. Honest does not yeah. I figured weeding sort of some of your more recent thoughts which we'll get to about the magazine business at. That didn't seem likely that you'd want to do it. But back to the nineties. One of my other favorite projects that you work done around that time and when that i also own the french version is madonna's sex book steven meisel was photographing the book. And both he and madonna wanted you to direct it and in your twenty nine thousand nine monograph you talk about how one of the objectives was to give it the right kind of quote unquote crazy tabloid elegance You couldn't make it to wild looking without making it look cheap and you if you made it look too crazy the crazy you had to ensure that the crazy was not going to be sort of ridiculous. How crazy was it to work on that job. And what did you think of the ensuing hysteria over. Not a great time fabulous. Great time working with her. She was unbelievable. She was so i mean wishy naked. Most of the time she was thinking yeah most of the time some of the time. She was definitely naked. Yeah i didn't bother me. It didn't bother me at all. I yeah i would think the opposite. I'm right but there was a lot of nudity. Mutiti everywhere did it ever sort of get lurid nano don't think so. I think that you know we kid as a job. Yeah it was like you know was working on the film or something like that. Like i think like when you onset and you have all these people i mean the nudity is not something. That is intriguing sir. Really to be honest. It's a job so you look at it as a job you don't look at. Oh my god. She's naked this. You know we didn't care. We were here to do something and being sad. Like you know doesn't allow other thoughts you know i mean so no didn't bother me one bit there was a lot of robert mapplethorpe influenced sem dsm. There were the yeah. I mean like she. She wanted to cover a little bit of everything they wanted to have that that bid and embiid. She wanted the weirdness. She wanted the underground she wanted to overtly pop culture. She wanted like the all the different aspects of sex. She wanted to cover everything. I mean to be honest. I found was he was treated like a journal. Like a thoughts thought process and visuals. Were like some of them very sophisticated. Some of them very trashy some of them very pop. Some of them very cartoonish. Some of them very hard. Some of them like there was everything in it. It was like a like a collage of all these different visions done and packaged again by. Descend people like dog. Refer nor director and a writer lynn. O'brien myself and stephen mozelle and you know like these different expressions of the subject matter. I mean the ended up being the package was like together in a good way it l. Together nicely yet voice. The whole thing had voice and a point of view and visually really and really and really fund in many ways scandal. Oh find life. I was finally able to get the french copy. That could not get an english copy. I got a french still have. I was so enthralled with that book. Fabian that at that time you know the internet and email and all of that was first taking off user. Names is the name of data as my username. Name is data. I use that name. I just remembered that talking. I was so in the world it really is. It was in his controversial as it was in looking back on it now. It doesn't seem that way but then it was. Every single photograph is beautiful. Every single loaded graph is beautiful in that book. Well stephen mozelle in your monograph published by fading. It's a four hundred plus page stunning exploration of thirty years of your own work and one thing that surprised me in reading. It is your statement that when you were younger you really loved being controversial and you were never afraid and today you find yourself to be more careful and wondering what is behind that change. I would if you see what's going on politically. Don't think you have to be careful. Okay okay. I i'm creative risks or being less maybe politically correct or. I don't think he's a good moment for that. I don't think it's the climate doesn't allow controversy. I think controversy is not read. as controversy. controversy is bred as something extremely offensive in actually can put your carrier down today so you have to really twice about before you said something before you do something or somewhere before you certain visuals you have to think about everything everything is can become you know like a weapon against you so you have to be very careful. I think it's somewhere it's good in many ways it's good and it's necessary in other ways it's less good. It takes up a lot of the critics factor. Does it. i mean is never innocent like when you do something. But there's a certain innocence in in creation that doesn't put automatically things that you say or do in context of political or chief sociology coal environment of a certain time. And i find you know like certain artists. Don't leave in the time yet to get george per the environment in the context in which they work and that could really endanger division. This kind of you know like Restrictions in self restrictions. One one that's to put on themselves to certain degree so being controversial today. Dad no is very ski. There's that and the other reason is i guess you learn. I think you when you're younger you. You want to check the tree. You want to bother the people that older you want to create your own little revolution and then you become wiser and you don't want to treat. You actually want to protect the tree. You want to make sure it's trained properly. You wanna make sure it gets water. You wanna make sure this all the other things you want. You wanna care you know and you want maybe pass along the knowledge that you've amassed three years and you want to pass that along to someone else so you be. Your mental behavior is shifting and changing. So that's the second part of this. Yeah you've stated that the era of the fashion magazine has come to an end. Why do you feel that way. It feels way because you see magazines. I mean like two people. Look at magazines still to people by magazine. Do we feel in the edge of technology and the edge of you know portable phone tablets. You know anything like digital. Do you feel that time of magazine is something relevant for today or is it better to swipe but do you think i think it's about swiping. It's not about turning pages of a magazine to be honest. Do you think that you may turn the page of a book. But do you think of a magazine. I find magazine nut relevant in my in my mind. I don't find them. You know even though. I missed a do miss putting a magazine together. I miss working with thug refers on editorial authorities. But i don't feel it's relevant. I don't i don't feel it's the proper tool to communicate fashion to do. You still subscribe to a lot of magazines. Though which wednesday still subscribe to. Can you share. No no no i. I don't subscribe. No i am for for eighteen years like i just paid for it. And there was a glitch with the with the payment and then it had repaid and then all of a sudden i'd been born. A petit took over from housing garden. So i got the balanced put on vogue. I headed for eighteen years and then it stopped. And i don't miss it is i. I still think about it. And i'll look at it online from time to time but i don't miss it. I don't know if it's because grace coddington left. I don't know but it's just not the same i think it's it's different time I think what we were doing at the time in the nineties that was relevant. It felt like it was something it felt like. It was a connection when dominique browning was editor of housing garden. I the first thing. I would editorial the last magazine for me to go is harper's bazaar is the talent of all this like i think people are just hanging on. The branches like desperately tried to steal hang on the mat. Like i don't know i'm not into it. It's funny like i. I think. I think to do something that that makes it needs to be relevant in needs to be a medium that is relevant. I'm where more intrigued into like. I mean it was all my clients. We don't talk about the page that's going to involve we talk about like instagram. Post to say this And even though i'm not it's a shame that it is instagram post. But it's what it's about so my question put to myself now. It's like. I'm gonna make that instagram post much better than all the other post. I make this relevant only make this work. And i'm gonna make this important and that's what i'm trying to do do you. Intimate as much is different too. It's it's it's a different says it's a different exercise and do enjoy as much. I don't know. I don't even ask myself the question because i think like you learn you know working. I've been working so much you've realized that most of what you do is problem solving problem solving you know that. It is on the page on his screen on the billboard on in a book or like on the as a moving image. It's problem solving. And i became a problem solver. N- baby and i don't think so. I think that you became a problem maker for other people because your work with so much better. And that's what. I think we designers to when you're trying to make an instagram post. That's better than anybody else that has never been done before a europe problem maker for everybody else. That can't well. I don't know about that. But i know that's what i do all day long. You know i'm being put like in front of a problem by client. And i'm trying to resolve the issues that and tried to make the best solution out of it and it's listen. There's nothing wrong with that. I now enjoy that. It's kind of like you know like great math problem. It's also interesting but it's true like the things have shifted. it's not. It's not a bad magazine. Is it about book it. He could still be about the magazine that treated a little bit more. like an object. Something that is less through right. I'm talking about like maybe the bi annual magazines visionary Purple like all this you know. Are you aware of stack magazines. It's a subscription service out of the uk and they curate sending indie magazines. Once a month. Really really really well done. And i love getting them. They're never large circulation magazines. But it's really interesting to see what some people are doing sort. I'll send you a link. It stack magazines. They pick the magazine. You get what they pick. Once a month you get a magazine. Interesting really great. And then you sort of stay on top of the dogs checked to get the subject the yeah the actual magazine and there are some extraordinary made these days. They're small but they're really really good this. I'm sure i'm sure. I mean i think you know. I'm talking about magazine as a large large like the vote. The best that level of magazine like ultimately like you. We love the small independent magazines because they have a voice in nabet point of view. And they have you know something they want to say but at the time to do it with no money and the lead to stop. I run with the ball. And you know they they undermine themselves before you know just to get certain people inside the magazine so it's a little bit of free fall and then on the other hand. The very commercial magazine is the opposite. You have to do exactly what they want as if you were doing. Advertising and you. Voice as a collaborator is is not appreciated. Or like you here to get in the gap you know so It's one of the other i think. I don't think there's any place where you feel like. The collaboration and the point of view from the team inside the magazine is forward. In a way that is you know like meaningful at. I don't know a magazine today. The one magazine. I still really enjoy reading. Both online and in hand is the new yorker. Still think that they're doing well. Those were very smart the way they did it through like a subscriptions they decided like the. It's not a the housing is about like the quality of the product and the and you know foot that quality. You're going to pay certain amount of money to get the magazine and it paid off for them. He's the one magazine that successful. Good in your monograph. You state that while you've devoted most of your life to becoming a good art director. You now want to dedicate the rest of what time you have left to film and photography. Tell me why. Well i think like i said it goes all the way back to my dad. I've learned art direction. Because i think it was an art. Director would have been filmmaker. I would be in film you know so. I realized that all the mediums are very much their own thing. And is you point of view. Mixing was that medium that creates something exceptional that it is magazine building house painting. Sculptors filmmaking thaw goofy. i think it's all the same. I think what what you have to say is important part and out is also important power and the medium in which you communicate this thoughts. It's just that medium. it has its own vocabulary. That's its own language so it's a little bit like you know like let's say magazine is french. Film is english. Sutherland is like learning another language but basically what you have to say is the same you know like most big artists. They just be themselves at the lock to be able to play with different mediums and to pass from one medium to the other from magazines into books into fragrance into furniture and into film has done film for about twenty five years now Lot of commercials started doing commercials. One of my first commercial was for. Joe manny and dan on for calvin klein like i did many many many for calvin klein and on and on and on it just like love film. What you did for among ally. The way was extraordinary. Thank you if you can. I tried to raid a little explanation in anticipation of asking you some questions about it but i. I decided that it might be easier for you to just share with my listeners. What you actually did for montclair and that magnificent film in the icebergs actually. The iceberg thing was was a project that i had made for longtime i went to was part of my see pitchers and i was always always intrigued by ice and i burbs in these amazing landscapes that felt like there were another planet and so i went to greenland once and took my camera and my special technique. When when a do pitches. I do very long exposures and then when i went to very long special sometimes three four minutes and i took my big camera time like it was by ten camera and went slipped it all the way to greenland and realize when a stand on land and the iceberg a moving and i get my pitches back from a trip in greenland and you barely see by was the i you see. The little is moving back but the big things you think that things not moving right but then you get the pitch about a little blur. Your everything is a bit blurry. Oh my god like ns been you know. I love this up out. Kinetic a picture of a nice burke that is not something that looks like an amazing pictures from national geographic. That feels like my picture. And that as that amazingness likes something special and the only thing think about is that you need to lead the whole thing. You need to lead it. A theater stage like you would lead like the street or something because his big eight but there are no electrical outlets in the arctic. Yes so oh. My god that's complicated. That's required big production that the and then you know so years pass by and Ramo calls me like i love. You pitchers love pictures of the c. Is there something you what. What would you do if if i would ask you to do something for me. What would you do. And i go. Oh you know. I know exactly what specially given the warm i would do icebergs. I would go to greenland and should is berg's but that would lead everything at night. And he said okay. Let's do it and basically allowed that dream to hats. Amazing though was the most amazing journey and the most amazing job i was ever ever assigned. I love that job me. The fashion guy being lost in greenland minus twenty degrees you know my camera and my yields strobes like massive stoves that were on boats on other boats and trying to take these bitches of icebergs. Like i wasn't heaven i mean like thank you remove this. It was really extraordinary experience. It was really great. Is there anyone in the fashion of publishing business that you haven't worked for. That could cajole you to work for them. What a to be entirely honest. I think like you know like we were talking about film. We're talking about you. Know what i've learned through the years working magazines. You learn to build a story you learn to make stories you learn how to become a narrator. Then as i worked in film and doing commercial you learn that same spirit of narrative. But you deal visuals. You deal with art direction. You deals air makeup. Do deal with sound you deal with special effects. You deal with collar you deal with movement. You deal with action in deal with so many other layers. I've find the film. The most complete method of expression that to me is relevant for what i want to say that. So i've put to be honest. Most of my friends towards that lately you know and i do a lot of films. I do about twenty different films by year that direct and i'm about to launching into a feature film and like the works with that so this is something that's going to happen and that's what is next for me to be honest that is by had been replaced. Ethnic is going to replace the magazines. It's the same thing but it's just bigger bigger is a bolder and more you know it's in the narratives bigger and like the expression is bigger. And there's like i'm someone was ultimate control in everything i do and what i love about film is that you spend months and months trying to put something together that is in total control. But the minute you say action and the film is rolling you totally las old control and all the magic starts to happen so all these things that you put together really calculating everything disconnect and disconnect cities. That's going to be said you're going to say that word can be like this. The going to be like that. That you say action is an. It's like you'd like the child in front of an image and something's happening in front of you that. Wow it's magic and that i think he's to me is the maximum so like i think that's where i'm going to focus the rest of my life into doing that. And my talk affi work and hopefully exhibits and things like that of my work that have collecting for the past thirty five years doing an exhibit without doing any prince like an archive. That is huge. And that i'm putting together installing printing in like someone start exhibit hassle to thinning. And it really. That's where i wanna go congratulations. It sounds magnificent. So it's great. I'm i'm really happy about that. It took me a long time. Yes it seems to get. That sorta seems to be the way it goes. I i do my last question. Has your father feel about your career. Well my father passed away a couple of years ago about seven years eight years ago and it was very pleased. It was very pleased. Of course we were like yes. I can tell face how happy were very very very very close. And i think like i think for dad you know for someone like him that really fought always life to get where it was and it was in a great place when he died. I think it was very at first threatening. I was threatening and then i think he impressed me and then he really liked you know supported me and very much. Like a totally embraced. What i was doing and was very proud. Yes oh he passed away and and the do to can infuse his work and yours into your four wonderful children. This i do thank you. Thank you thank you so much for making the world. More provocative and elegant place today design matters span on her. It was a pleasure for me. Time you can see more of fabian barons work at barron hyphen baron dot com and in his magnificent monograph baron works nineteen eighty three to twenty and nineteen this seventeen year. We've been podcasting design matters. And i'd like to thank you for listening and remember. We can talk about making a difference. We can make a difference more we can do. Both jeb now men and look forward to talking with you again. Soon design matters is produced for ted audio collective by curtis fox productions and non pandemic times. The show is recorded at the school. The visual arts master and branding program and new york city the first and longest running branding program in the world. The editor in chief of design matters media is zachary pettit and the art. Director is emily.

new york fabien baron france paris Debbie millman adam grant siaka Glen latchford mark barron Peter lindbergh Newton guy bourdin united states lieberman alexandra lieberman alex liberman conde nast charles church ward alexander lieberman
Future Thinkers Smart Village on The Stoa

Future Thinkers Podcast

1:04:42 hr | 1 year ago

Future Thinkers Smart Village on The Stoa

"Hey everyone it's been awhile since published an episode we've been working hard on our Smart Village project and just recently we launched our campaign, you can check out the page ad features inkers, dot org slash village. There's video there there's a description of the vision there's pictures and Recently, we did an appearance on the Stoa to talk the project and with permission from Peter were publishing that interview in Cuny here. The questions were freaking awesome I. Think we did a pretty good job of explaining the whole concept and I had just finished editing the all of the drone shots together from the visit that we did on the property a couple of weeks ago. So lots of really cool shots the property in the river and the nature in that area That's all going to be embedded on the show notes page, and you can check that out by going to future thinkers dot org slash one, two nine, and to check out the Stoa go to the STOA does he they have a lot of great guests coming on every day they have tons of events. So definitely make sure to check them out. Hey. This is future thinkers where we talk about how to adapt to a changing world build more resilience, upgrade culture and society create meaning and purpose with your hosts Mike. It'll land and you've Nova. Welcome everyone the stoa place where Riko here in dialogue about what matters most at the knife's edge of this very moment on the Stuart Peter Lindbergh and today we have the future thinkers. In the STOA. Uv Ivan Nova and Mike Gillan to superstars in the sense making web, and they're gonNA talk about something that they're working on special project called the Smart Village So I've known. You for a while. Now, we were part of this secret sense making mafia, mastermind group and. Now. All of a sudden like Hey Peter. We're doing a smartphone illegitimate what? What is this? This sounds awesome and then they recently released epic video that we all watch in a moment. See I'm really excited I don't know much about the project. So the this is sort of a preview for the family to get an idea of it. pity is GonNa work is in a moment I'm going to take Mike in Mike's GONNA share Few videos. Maybe. An exclusive one on the Smart Village and I'll be asking them questions and if you're familiar with the whole kind of Stoa Jam write your questions down anytime in the chat box. If you L calling you to meet yourself during that portion and they used on yourself and then ask your question to Mike UV If you don't want to be on Youtube is on Youtube indicate that in the chat, you ask your question. That being said. Mike UV has gone. That's gone good. Thanks. Yeah this thing. This has been a long time coming. This is about ten years of planning. Mining visiting thinking about it, and now we're finally doing it. It's funny how Cova accelerate certain things, nuts. What's happened for us it seemed like it was kind of an uphill battle trying to get off the ground before and then covert hidden. Suddenly everybody's like wait a second I wanna live in a smart village I don't WanNa be in the city the sucks. So. Yeah. Yes. I didn't know that you guys are thinking about this for for ten years now. Yes since we first. Started dating really this. This is something we've talking about Pick up line like I'm able to a smart. SMART. Village. One day. I think my pickup line was an eighty eight key keyboard at home simulated COMPLA- it. Out Win me over. Yeah So. Yeah. This is. We've asked yourselves like we've been traveling around for a while to we were kind of doing the digital lamenting since two thousand twelve. Living in Southeast Asia living in Europe and we had originally We didn't have a location in mind for where we would want to do this thing we thought wherever we were at the moment felt like the right place, and so we kind of started a public initiative to build the Smart Village in Bulgaria were we were living at the time. And it was a challenge and then cove it hit and we had our first child and. It became clear. We needed to be back home in Canada where we're from and Be Close to family and razor our son in more of a community with a network we already have with kind of a culture that we understood and so we move back in the midst of Covid and then just put the idea out there to the world that we're going to build center in British Columbia, and then a lot of people came out of the woodwork and started helping and within about a month or so in fact, a lot of those people are in this call right now to see. Yeah. So people came out and started helping us find properties and then we looked at a few different properties found this one this one in Kaslo or near Kaslo. in the Kunis that is a hundred and seven acres with a bunch of existing properties with starters are a structures and with solar panels and the We had a conversation with the owners and the owners wanted to partner with us. They listen to podcast and loved the vision and offered to partner with us on this project. Yeah. They've been running it as a farm since the nineties as an organic farm. And they you know saw that partnering with US would take it to the next level in adult a technology component on the network and the. Community aspect that we WANNA bring and so yeah, it's Very organically in a very cool way just like we. Concentrate feel like we're at the right time and in the right place doing this. So. Totally. So I have a bunch of questions but might be pretty to watch that video A preview than can kind of jump off from there. All right. And there's some exclusive content to. I two videos here actually one I just finish exporting right before we started in it's a collection of all the drone shots. We took a drone out there and just went nuts for a couple of days with. So, got lots of really cool aerial footage of the property that nobody has seen yet. There's barely any of it in the main intro video. So I set up the intro video first, and then if you guys want, we'll check out the drone shots here so. There are so many ways that cities make life unsustainable and miserable. The noise, the expense overcrowding, social unrest pollution, and the separation from nature. People are isolated stuck in these tiny little boxes that make it impossible to feel connected and be healthy or even see the stars. These cities are built on an extractive and consumptive economic model. The destroys ecosystems and has held together with fragile supply chains and the illusion of infinite. Really don't have to live this way. We could build our villages, towns and cities on the principles of by Mimicry. To be resilient, decentralized, diverse, and attuned to the local environment. But we're going to need a testing ground a place where new systems ideas can be prototypes and we're old wisdom can regain its place in modern culture. That's exactly what we're doing the future thinker smart village a place for regenerative living learning and creating. We're Mike in UB. For the hosts of the future fingers podcast along running show featuring guests like Daniel Moncton, Burger Jordan, Hall Ken, Wilber Jordan Peterson and more. We teach courses and workshops on sovereignty resilience since making an collective intelligence practices, and in nearly every one of our episodes, we asked the question. How can we adapt to the changing world we live in? We're aiming to create a place for living, learning, creating and growing. With programs that help people recognize their own sovereignty and interconnectedness. We focus on regenerating the individual the community and the ecosystem. or idea is to connect networks of smart villages to build a set of blueprints. Practices can a knowledge base of what works? What doesn't? We're moving onto one, hundred, seven acre. Property in the heart of the news in British Columbia Canada. When you visit or live there, you'll be able to stay in a variety of sustainably built homes and overtime. We'll be adding more new experimental dwellings. If you want to get your hands dirty. There'll be lots of projects contribute to like the celebrating events and education programs, building new structures or working in the garden. We also want to encourage participants to start sustainable businesses and be part of the local economy. Your content creator and you can use multi media studio to make videos, podcasts, music design, and other forms of art. Storytelling and knowledge sharing is GonNa be a huge part of this village, which is why it's one of the first things we're going to set up. We already have an electric vehicle sharing program. So if you need to get picked up where he just wanted to around the area can do it. You can also take part in all kinds of outdoor activities in adventures in the area. The KOOTENAI have some amazing nature to explorer and we plan to use only clean transportation to keep that way. Over the next five years we're going to be expanding what we do. One of our earlier projects will be to build a maker space with CNC machines, laser cutters, three printers, and more. The idea is to have a creative playground where many ideas can be tried and tested it. If, you're older idealist center of the future thinkers podcast going to love the program said, we'll be hosting including co working and living stays that are focused on developing regenerative practices, workshops, and festivals. Pakistan's an idea incubators outdoor and wilderness adventures and lots of personal development recruits. We've partnered with friends family and the previous owners of the property, and we're looking to start building and running events in two thousand, twenty one. If you're interested in visiting living there, sponsoring partnering or investing in the project, go to feature thinkers dot org slash. And clearly contribute button and if you're inspired by the Vision, sure the project with your friends. We're really excited to bring this project to life together and with your help. So, painful watching that again. Eight my voice over. Yeah so Yeah. We probably open it up to questions for a little bit here. She think Peter Yeah sure I has some questions if you have any questions throwing them in the chat Alaska, the questions that someone through like how many how many people living on site So because? The idea is to have it kind of like a lab. We are not going to grow at very fast in terms of how many people live there i. think we will cap it at fifty adults, but that will be over several years to start. We'll just have a couple of families living there because there are already some existing structures can accommodate that we build more structures and rezoned parts of the property to fit more houses will increase the capacity One thing that's really important for us is to make sure that social cohesion is there that we all get along and that you know we're all they're purposefully working on something in you know working on the project itself or related projects that help. Grow and create the culture So yeah for the first little while it'll it'll be quite small, but it will grow time. There's there's a point of this I think is worth illustrating here that wasn't quite included in the video, which is the storytelling and the the kind of we want to build a documentary around this, and then do more of these types of projects in projects in the region and that around the world. So we want to figure out what works and what doesn't documentary failures and successes as we go forward, get a series of of either a web episode or some sort of Netflix series going. And so that's why put so much effort in the the initial video in the the selling of this idea out there because I think that's GonNa play a big role in inspiring people to want to do this thing themselves to start more of these villages. Yeah. In the idea is not to create this as like. This is the ultimate thing where like this is a testing ground and here's what works for us. Here's would here's what worked and here's what didn't and people everywhere in the world can apply the same principles to start villages of their own. Rather than having like this is the ultimate retreat center that you can come to. Yeah. You're leading the way and by example, and as an experiment in the test to see what works hopefully, inspire the people Have you taken inspiration from any existing kind of intentional communities current or prior? Individuals were paying attention to we started a regenerative Smart Village Series on the Podcast, and we've interviewed a number of people who are doing really interesting projects that their own, not exactly the same model but. Some similar crossover elements I would say that we've also taken negative inspiration from existing eco villages like on what not to do, and this is where we saw an opportunity to do something different. Yeah. I've the feeling that I get looking at it and I. We don't. We haven't been to a lot of different smart villages, but the feeling I get generally from our research. Is that there are a lot of people kind of escaping. either technology or society or the. Talk Ellipse. Any number things people there seems to be the escapist attitude and that's not what we WANNA do we want to figure out ways to? Template a different way of living and also. Some sort of new culture because that's going to be the founding see that everything else blossoms from. So culture is a in the ability to be in relation, which is essentially what you guys are doing here in in the Stella, like that's going to be a very critical part of this. What is sort of the sourcing application on boarding process like for people who WanNa live in the Smart Village? We're working through the details are so moving. So many moving parts we only been back in Canada since March. So there's like there's a lot to figure out. We don't exactly know what the on boarding processes and I don't think there's an easy way. To figure out how well we're going to Gel with people and how well how much people can contribute until they're actually on the property staying there for a short term period of time and working how the they can contribute. It's been an emergent process and learning process. So that's one of the things that were pretty transparent about is that we don't know how to do this. We're figuring it out as we go and I think that's really exciting and like we're kind of approaching it as a startup, you know start up mentality like. It's okay to fail and we know that you know we'll figure out a lot of things as we go so. But as far as people coming on I, think we're gonNA try and expand. One of the first projects we're going to do is to make a bit of an RV park so that we can have more people coming on so we can have higher. Levels of accommodation and then people can test it out and then there are more structures in there'll be more spots for more permanent dwellings overtime. But for the first little while we're focusing on people who are entrepreneurial to you know in order to build a culture and build out the community and and kind of Inject a lot of ideas but also the ability to execute on those ideas. For the documentary, I think is a brilliant. Kinda. Like artistic experiment to a have with this project. Are you going to release it in segments again released like a whole Big One? While generally when you pitching Netflix or any of these kind of bigger stations, you need a pilot, you want a couple of episodes and then you pitch that idea. Ongoing for a period of time till you get picked up and funded to do a whole season. So I love the idea of focusing on a web series and just having no finite end to that, and then as we collect is we make more episodes than just be pitching along. Yeah, and Mike's Background is an in film and audio. So he's got connections still a lot of people working in the industry so. Super Cool. Ryan, you had a question on governance. UNIN meet yourself. Here. Ryan Campbell. Read it on his behalf. Then what will governance or decision making hierarchies look like do you have protocols or software to help facilitate social cohesion cohesion? Yeah that is something we've been developing good amount of experience with with group calls in the last couple of years and we're very we're kind of sticklers for minimum. Key minimum rules and a lot of time in those group calls people will call for more rules but we've resist that like let's figure out how to build our interpersonal. Conflict resolution abilities so that we don't have to account with the rule set for every possible disagreement or problem. Let's just figure out how to get good at. Being in disagreement in reading it. Yeah. So I intend and so the short answer is no we don't have a lot of kind of governance structures we have right now the way things are set up is that there's a company that will own land, and so the actual hard assets and a degree of the voting rights will be represented through certain types of shares in the company made you different people on yet so we don't exactly have that perfectly laid out, but there will be different shares that represent decision making. You might not care about the decision making of every aspect of the. The village, you might have a specific areas of expertise. So we're hoping to represent that and because we're starting with a small number of people, the the governance structure of just like we sit in a circle and we talk it out until we arrive at a conclusion and until we're on the same page but I think it'll be sufficient for the first while as the village grows and as there are more decision makers and more different projects than we will workout, what kinds of decision making structures work best for that that scenario. The other thing is we're pretty aware of the kind of natural human tendency to create bureaucracies like. We are. Contending within our group calls anyway with the demand to create rules and we were very resistant to that. So. In that sense. Yeah I think I think we're good at that will just keep doing what we're doing I. Think it's working but there will be times where there's a disagreement. So I think what we might end up doing is is having. Between unite a slightly higher amount of voting shares so that we can swing it. If there's a stalemate, we can swing it neither direction and we're pretty good with decision making like we can make fast decisions and if it's really split down the middle, then fine will break the tie. Just had this vision legacy becoming Jersey shore with the documentary series into the disagreements with like amplified. Joyous. Yeah. I'm. A, lot of. The. Storytelling. My parents like we're since we've come back to Canada we're staying with my parents. So they you know hgtv is on all the time upstairs and I there watching like home steadying channels and stuff like that, and I always watch these shows and think I hate the manufactured drama that they insert into all of these shows I would really not want to do that. So let's have real conversations recorded. Let's not try and. Make it more entertaining for. Sake and I'm sure there'll be lots of failures in hilarious situations to make entertaining like. Have you guys seen the biggest little farm? That's A. Good good show. If you need a rowdy stoic to guest appear, I'll happily on cosmodrome for you guys definitely get his. We don't shy away from the conflict as as part of the STOIC. Philosophy. So we're in it. All right. So Drew, Buchmiller and I after I gave her patient themselves, so you have to admit yourself again like. True. So I had a question you. Were emphasizing the not removing too far from you know not escapism mentioned you bring people in have an entrepreneurial spirit. What I'm wondering about is with. A lot of were going remote. Now, what is it looked like you know say if someone were to come from the US and where are you looking mainly for people who are self employed or What does it look like if someone's working remote from from a company based, you know I live actually just south of you in in Idaho like what would that look like across the borders I'm not familiar with the like how taxes worker if that's an issue. Well we've done the digital nomad thing for a lot of years. So we kind of know our way around that and I think. You. Know One thing we want situation we don't WanNa have is for people's income to be completely dependent on us on the property on the business. just because it sets up some pretty gross dynamics over time where it's like their. Super dependency that. Unhealthy we'd been there before to in it's it's really not healthy So, as far as immigration in that kind of thing we expect people to figure that out on their own like we we generally are looking for people who are pretty. Self sufficient self starters you know can configure things out. So we do have some Americans that are planning to come and they're navigating that process by themselves. but for the most yeah and actually one Brit. So. Here. Daniel. If you WANNA pipe up with any of your progress with that you can. But I'm e also kind of make it obvious to me now that we need to have like a resource page or something for immigration. But yeah. As far as the Self Employment Goes I. Mean you can be on a tourist visa for a good length of time and I think you by default get a six month visa if you're in American coming into. Canada something along those lines. So six months out of the year I think it was permitted. So there's there there is a way to do that at the beginning as far as like super long term permanent state at something you've got to figure out. But I think that's something we should do is put up the immigration page more. Yeah and right now with Cova, borders are closed so unless People coming in from other countries would have to have good precedent to be here. In the eyes of immigration anyway. Louise you had a question. I Yeah I was wondering what the capital requirements budget will be dissipated to build all the comments space projects you propose in the video ranging from the event center to the dwellings to makers base to the road will fortunate benefit of the documentary is that there's a lot of end the podcast and the events and everything that we're doing. There's a lot of space four sponsorship. So. What we've, we've got a lot of experience with sponsorships as well. So I anticipate that a lot of the maker space will be funded through sponsorships and donations, and we actually have a partner already on the team who does that who kind of travels around and sets up maker spaces in innovation centres he's already done one in Kazlo. So he knows how to do that. So we're probably GONNA use him as a resource for that. Then when it comes to the individual properties while maybe you WANNA take up. Yeah. So Currently in negotiations with several companies that do building prefab construction and that sort of thing. So we will have more information about the specific costs. Soon, as far as what we're looking to raise to start is two million Canadian, and that's to acquire the property and do some updates but that's not to build build everything that's in the video that will probably be over several years and will require more funding and we can't give specific number of how much that will cost will our priority in the first year definitely at least four new. Dwellings for just couples. So probably not ideal for families, but you know you would get a single kind of geodesic dome or something that you could. Move into in stay on. We're looking at prefab houses, cabins, geodesic domes, tiny homes like different options. Thing. That's worth mentioning is the existing owners of the property Own operates a timber framing company so they make timber. Frame. And they. have. Typically, ships them across throughout the states and Canada on, but they they're mill is less than five minutes drive from the property. and. They've already got a lot of experience building they've on the proper. They've built a number of structures in the property already. So they're going to be a great resource for us for building in for keeping costs down and that also keeps it local You know it solves a lot of the supply chain is shoes that a lot of companies have with Cova 'cause all. The materials are low colo laborers local, but even with the geodesic domes, there's so much opportunity for sponsorships because suddenly you know if we have a variety of different types of dwellings, they become the showroom for these companies to us. They can send their people there. They can be included in the documentary series like there's a lot of exposure that they get for donating those materials to us. So yeah, we're looking to leverage a lot of different partnerships to make this happen. And then to tag on a question I was wondering what the current infrastructure is for that like plot of land like Internet fiber city water phone, although sort of like modern amenities. Yeah. So it's is been run as a farm since the nineties at least I already has three houses on it, which are fully functional fully renovated it has a bunch of Barnes and different structures for animals. Fan saying has three wells and three septic tanks. One for each house it's it has a grid connection, but it also has two bays of solar panels. So it's it produces its own energy and then. It doesn't have battery. So at night, it will buy energy back from the grid. And it ends up being that they basically pay very little at all I if at all for energy over the year so and we will probably look at at getting batteries so that we can be completely off grid optional but yeah, it's already set up fully and fully functional. Internet I currently has a dish Internet, and We've talked to the local Internet company about getting fiber and it'll about I think five kilometers away is a connection. So we just need to string the cable, those five kilometers and it'll just cost us but that's within the budget. Jam, in in. Call Right now. You meat yourself if you are. Not Wealth, he would. Be Spending. Thanks. Thanks Luiz Elbert and you had a question. Yeah. Hey Mike. Movie on. Sure starting off you guys are going to be utilizing the fund and like when you get your village running your you guys could be using Canadian dollars more nuts. But I was wondering if you had any thoughts on eventually issuing euro digital currency or utilizing crypto or blockchain technology. Of that idea I wanted. To ask us that I've I've. Made a coin of my own just for fun that's out there on the blockchain don't go looking for it. Really not a good investment. But yeah we thought about that because of the flexibility in the program ability of using a cryptocurrency on the property we've also I mean I know that a lot of. Civilizations in the past and communities in the past of. Eventually created their own. Currency. The with technology that we have access to. Now, there's a huge amount of flexibility. So I'm excited about that idea but is it a necessity for the first year or two? No. but I love the idea of everything having of having an economy inside of the village and into that. To an extent, the entire region of the Kootenai I think that'd be really cool I think for for the network aspect that would be really great to have some sort of token that is used across these types of villages all the world. where you know people can trade accommodations, GonNa. Have programs where you go visit each other and learn things or use each other services Yeah. There's definitely opportunity for that. It'll just be sometime down the road. If anyone here has expertise on that. Actually that would be great reach out to me privately. We'll chat. Cool. Okay Anna you had a question. Can Meet Yourself. Diego. Reply Mutate. There you go. Frustrated with the idea. And at the same time I'm aware of so many other experiments in this field. Vetting interested in how do you differ? Also. The media just seem Italy which empty as a very beautiful. So. So. Why not take a Mitch already existing? Well we we're not trying to be the only one out there. We're not trying to create competitive dynamics. So we I. Mean we spent four or five years in Bulgaria and traveled around Europe quite extensively. So we know about those abandoned villages. I'm Bulgarian by the way. Oh Great. Yeah. So We. We decided that we would like to set this up in our home country where our family lives. But I think that people in different countries around the world can use the different available. You know infrastructure an landon zoning whatever that suits to each region and I think that's the beauty of it. You know there are some sort of different opportunities in every area that people should be utilizing as a huge advantage I mean. Ira villages that are completely abandoned and people are the. Same in Italy. And I mean you can get your hands on property on an existing structure for only a couple thousand dollars. So it's it's attractive and there's lots of opportunity. For this type of thing, we're kind of taking difficult route is Canada's a little more expensive and we're so mobile. We could do this in Mexico, we could do in Bulgaria or something but. it needs to be feasible anywhere. I think this is like this is a new way that human civilization could live. And so we're you know I recognize that there are some things that we're doing that are not exactly. Replicable for other people, you know not everyone has a podcast that they can offer sponsorship on and got a bunch of free stuff. So and not everyone might have the ability to crowd fund something like this. But a lot of families do have the ability to put their connections together, pool the resources in and by by at least some. Level of acreage acreage and do something like this themselves. So there's lots of little bits and pieces that you can do yourself, and that's what we hope to inspire people to do as far as what we're doing. That's different while we're integrating technology that's one of the things that's definitely different some of the ECO villages that we've looked at are trying to run away from technology We don't see technology as evil or. Bad. Somehow. We want to integrate it just in a way that technology should be serving human nature and. The by region and be out of the way. Yeah. Yeah What else are we doing those different well we're integrating a lot of different aspects like the self personal development is really big for us and we are very developmentally focused rather than trying to Present some sort of an ideology or some sort of perfect way of living that to need to follow or. Institute some sort of a religion or utopia or specific political structure very experimental We're kind of agnostic in that sense. We want to try different stuff and see what works kind of like the idea of the burgundy robes that we might just do that. Yes, it's been a running joke because things we're making a communist, a call or something not everyone. But once in a while we we do get people like also is this a religious thing or is it a commune? It's just like you know people have their own associations that they they come up with based on what they've seen, and so we've just started joking around with these purple robes like know when you come and visit in the in the visiting sweet, we'll have the the bathrobes be proposed as an inside joke. Cool. Emily. I exciting to be here and hear about all of this My question is around like initial investment like are you like if I wanted to come up there and join ib renting space or are you gonNA, open it up for people buying land? Are they going to buy land or the just going to buy a structure like what's? Your legally the the the path that's the most straightforward is to be looking for loans from our community to be able to buy the property, and then there will be multiple different types of businesses on disruption. Hopefully, people who come to move there will also start their own businesses. So, they're going to be different investment opportunities in the future. The that said if people are loaning money, there are a lot of perks that were kind of bringing into that like if you WanNa rent or stay on the property or leased something for an extended period of time, you would get a discount if you're one of the original lenders and first priority because there's actually been kind of an overwhelming demand for for stays at the property short, especially long-term stays. So we're trying to figure out how to manage that and how to prioritize Yeah. Hi How to give those perks to the people that help us fund the initial round? It's also a good filter mechanism to to do the loaning instead of the initial investor like to give equity away for the company that owns the land. So quickly because we're going to be living near each other all the time so we need to make sure there's A. Functional. You know it's not that we're looking for a certain culture, a certain type of person we want diversity of ideas but how good are people at Conflict Resolution? I wanted I want to learn that about people very quickly and that yeah. How good are they at collaborating? And these are things that are hard to each I think and not necessarily a priority for us to like. Build people up from scratch like there's definitely something you can come into this with the set of skills and abilities that will prioritize. So it, it would be alone the weights working with some people that they're loaning A larger chunk of money and then we're figuring out what the equity would look like in the future. So a portion of that loan would convert into. equity in the company that owns the land, which is kind of similar to like a community land trust except it's owned by a company. Yes. More simple version of it because we've looked at doing a community land trust and talked to some people who've actually successfully set it up and it's a very lengthy process, a lot of red tape and you know we have a friend who spent half a million dollars on lawyer fees and several years just to set up the coop ownership structure. So it's within the current system. It's quite a nightmare. So we're looking at simpler structures that kind of carry the same purpose. So a company that would. Have would own the assets owned the land, and the has one singular business focus, which essentially like renting and leasing the property war be almost like a real estate developer, which is something we're exploring. So that seems to me just to be the easiest route. So essentially, people would be able to forgive a portion of their loan in the future if the of the community agrees be able to convert a portion of that into equity. So my just a quick follow question like my my my approach should be I would wanna come up and stay for a chunk of time. Concealed out the land I live Santa Cruz right now. So this is also like jump and latitude. But yes. So to. So when are you guys opening it up for? People to comments day for months or how how is that? If you're a well, we're we're planning doing renovations. We Wanna be living there by about the end of October or November. So we're going to spend the winter there. We're going to be doing renovations on the Big House and actually pretty much all of these structures there and hopefully setting up new structures for visitors Space for viewers depart because a lot of people have expressed interest in coming up in an RV and staying here for awhile. So that will be a priority creating some structures and spaces so that people can come and visit for shorter periods of time to feel it out and get an everyone and see if it's a good fit for them and the initial lenders. Really there's one couple that wants is is we're talking with right now but the loan structure inequity structure and they wanna come as soon as possible and are totally happy to be living there through the winter. So there is space I mean, we have we definitely have the space for that. David Chilcott. You had a bunch of questions if you can ask one of them. Some most interested in kind else. What you've just been talking about a kind of about the equity slash loan slash business structures. in. The relationship to ownership equity and decision making. it's not really a well formed question, but I'd love to hear a little more about. How the formal and informal structures align. Other than what we've already said we're still working out the details because a big part of this is kind of letting it emerge in a way that makes sense for the people that are co creating with us. So rather than having this, like we've got it all figured out and got this perfect topdown structure that every body plugs into were were saying it like, no, like the people who are coming and Co creating it with us who are going to be. Stakeholders why don't we just figure out what works between us like as humans as a relationship and so it's been working out well so far we've learned a lot and figure it out a lot of the questions that we that were kind of unclear or that we were thinking about differently before and after talking to people realize actually, oh, it's going to be better to do it this way. So it's really a changing. It's a living thing it's not a static thing. So yeah. What we've said so far is our current way of thinking as it evolves more, and as we put things into contracts than we will put out some updates in the future. But for now, this is where we're where we're at. That makes good sense to me the idea that Rather than have policies rules as a substitute for conversation that you get skillful at. Having. Meaningful and authentic conversation. Yeah one of the things that we've been doing recently. So we have an online community and in our online community. This month we have a theme of indigenous wisdom. So we've been reading books and having a bunch of conversations and podcast designed around that theme and You know just kind of noticing the differences between the indigenous mindset and the Western mindset Western. Mindset is hyper structured like everything has to be figured out and everything has to be based on rules and people. Of because they are so relaxed unrolls actually ended up being really out of touch with reality with what's actually happening. Now, in this moment with these people you know and what's emerging and so we wanNA bring bring back the more of. Connected, mindset. Of what is actually emerging what's happening what are the opportunities and possibilities here? How are things changing just as a result of US talking here? So it's Yeah it's. It's kind of counterintuitive sometimes to people, but once they get into it they realize that it's it really works and it's something that doesn't scale. Which is probably why corporations and you know these biggest dickerson's don't use it because it is really reliant on the relationship between two or three or a small group of people. But in those kinds of configurations I think it works really well, and the the more people do it the more skillful they get at. DUNBAR's number about one hundred, twenty ish. The number of folks you can actually have. connected. Relationship. And and this is why the earlier question was like how many people are you gonNa have living there this is why we want to cap it at fifty adults. So that means that there's going to be several children and several neighbors that you have real close relationships with but. There are some books that have been written by people who've set up co housing communities for decades all over the world and That's the number that they came up with forty to fifty adults is the Max that you want to have a co housing community. If you get over that, then it starts breaking down and there's just too many kind of clashing expectations and it's hard to come to consensus. Thank you. Stated all fall without a how the trump. Color your practices in all these like here the story we have a Wisden Jim were developing that you guys have wisdom has it. was there any kind of academy everybody Daniel Thornton's a great example. He has circling embedded in their ecology Are you guys going to have something like that available for the community? And what would be an Circling to be meditation classes, you have something fixed or you're waiting to see what emerges. We already do Some version of circling every Thursday, like it's kind of same like that. Same. check-in procedure that you do a circling checking with yourself checking the room but the subject is not generally constrained to any arena. It goes wherever it goes where we feel like bringing. We might talk about external events and stuff, but we've got a lot of practice doing that would love to bring that into the physical space. A form of. Collective intelligence yet and it it only works a small group. I think fifteen is the most number of people like you you can have until you start. To break the coherence. To me they're they're basically two really important schools of thought on personal development it's the interpersonal in a relational aspect, and then the solo you know in silent darkness in your room kind of work like that meditative or Alex route. So. Those two things we have quite a lot of experience with more. So the collective aspect in the last couple of years, but we've we used to have meditation. APP You've teachers penetration every Monday like that's a big part of our what we do already. So bringing that into the physical spaces pretty natural easy. and. We plan to invite a lot of other facilitators as well because you know. I think it's important to have different modalities and different perspectives so that it doesn't get centralized so and there's already been a lot of interest. From from the people that we previously interviewed on the podcast and just people from our network growth, come up and put up their hand and said Hey I facilitate this sort of practice or this sort of thing I'd love to be part of this. Yeah. Cool. So we have a ten minutes left I'm curious along that video is Mike the. AERIAL TO WANNA pivot to that sooner. Sure. Yeah. It is for minutes long while most the exact same length, the other video. Yup Four minutes. So maybe it will feel one more question or how a statement. Christian, they get a statement about the. Interpersonal. Aspect. Join yourself in. I just wanted to say, it feels like the interpersonal aspects will be ported. City soft is ready hyper individualized. So it kind of goes back to Titas questions. What are some specific things you've been working on but I feel like Charlie touched upon that How is data like aspect reporting to us? Yeah. I actually want to. Expand into something that we haven't talked about yet from the question So my vision for the long term of displace is to have basically a school. So I've been thinking a lot about how children are raised and how we're educated you know how basically programmed by society and I think that it's not optimal for the kind of world that we're going into. You know it was suitable for more stable society for a more stable climate but now that things are becoming more chaotic and things are. Changing very quickly, I think people need to be more adoptive more responsive. So we need to change our parenting practices on our education practices to fit that so that you know our children and adults can thrive in this new role that we're going to. So that's my vision for the long term like for the next twenty years or something is sitting up school and the way that I see this is like how do we make regenerative humans? You know we the in the past people have talked. About Sustainability as kind of the, you know the green approach to how we relate to the environment. But I don't think that's enough because sustainability means that we are maintaining something and maybe we're maintaining things that are not optimal. So regenerative means restoring ecosystems to health. So you are an ecosystem to you as an individual like you are a collection of organs and different systems at work together, and then communities, and all the interrelationships in those communities is also an ecosystem and then there's the broader ecosystem of the. Buyer region, you know all the plants and animals and natural cycles in that system, and so the the relationships between those macro and micro systems are really important in the relationships within them also, extremely important. So the health of those relationships is is what makes the whole thing run? So I think that Inter relational dynamics are absolutely at the core of all of this and not just between humans, but also in how we relate to ourselves and how we relate to all the living beings in the by region. So, to be more specific I think a lot of it is emergent. A lot of it is is in the moment while you're relating to each different living thing or system, you're figuring out how to do it optimally I don't think it's a top down thing. So it's a lot of practice basically. Yeah I. Hope that answers it and I hope it's not too nebulous. So I'll ask the last question, maybe compare to the video and a lot of people are dropping. So we can get to all the questions. So I'm sorry A lot of people are dropping advice to in the chat. So if you want to change safe chat before you guys leave, you can do that I believe. I can send it to you after the fact. So the question I had is pretty simple What is your? Greatest concerns about this project most worried about and what are the things you're most excited about? Great Question Yeah I would think government interference. We want you know if you're example, we're doing this Tesla car sharing program partnered with another company who already has a fleet of Tesla and we were thinking like what does it cost actually get once I looked into buying one and I found out like the Canadian government taxes. These sustainable cars with about twelve thousand dollars each purchase. So you know there's a lot of lip service when it comes to government intervention in and acceptance and help that I think is not reflective in taxes not a reflective in how they actually. Support programs and I. Think if we got in the way of any type of like big business we could face. Some. Resistance. are in talks with the local government I mean this is a very small town. It's not a big city. So I think there will be a lot more opportunity to innovate and work with a local government and actually be able to adjust the regulations to make this thing possible and so far it's been you know the reception of project has been very positive and so there's actually an another eco-village on Vancouver. Island called hours are equal villager ours Equa- village and the they've been doing this for couple of decades and they have worked with local government to actually change some of the regulations to enable the project because they have had a very positive effect on the community. So the government sees it as a good thing. So I hope to do the same to establish relationships with the local structures to make it possible. as far as what am I most afraid of. Most challenged by. This is funny. The the perception of what redoing matters. Because when people come with a preconceived notion of what this is, it changes how they interact. Again, you know it changes that relationship dynamic. So we've definitely had some funny reactions mostly positive, but a few funny ones and so I see that as an ongoing challenge that how do we story tell in a way that accurately describes what we're doing and and helps people to understand they fit in in what we're doing and how it affects them. So. That's part of the reason why we want to do this documentary so that we can transparently show what we're doing and that's part of the reason why we want to create templates and document processes for how we're doing things so that we can show people Yeah this is hot structured and you know you can. You can learn from this. You can take it or even just like if people are not interested in setting it up themselves, they can see how we do things and why we do things in a certain way. So yeah a lot of transparency. And also inviting people to come out and say I mean that's going to be priority holding a lot of events so that people can just come and see it for themselves. That is not a closed community or you know six cult sex cult. The Meta modern while while country. So yeah. We had four minutes left one out quite the. Shirt, there's no audio here so we can continue to questions. Is this video audio still road trip Yup Ron we will. So yeah. Any other questions we can keep going here? Talk about what we're seeing as well. I'm curious. What what? I play maybe can you see my mouth? Hidden in the corner now. Yes you're most a little bit. Okay. So along the top here is the dividing line of the property we're facing south. Now we're facing north. So there's a southern property that's bigger than the current one than this one that we're looking at potentially acquiring in the future funding permits. You can see there's a lot of farmland. It's mostly surrounded by crown land, which means government on land. So just forest it's just at the edge of town about five kilometers outside town of five bedroom house. These are the solar panels here. There's a, there's a Kennel for dogs There's like bonds of stuff for having animals and stuff they used to be well known in the region for being deer farmers they had hundreds of deer on the property. In different times had horses and cows, and pigs, and all kinds of different animals. So yeah, the current owners have a lot of experience in farming, which is cool. There's yes. So this is there's a bunch of vegetables being grown there right now organic and this is the the river where there's a small stream that runs from the river So access to the water from not stream as well for irrigation, and there are also several wells on the property. The property actually extends up along this line above the ridge show it's not. All flat. A good portion of it is also this forested area about forty percent of it actually is that forced area and that's probably that portion is zoned. So it's probably where we're going to start building some of the structures. This is on that side. This is one of the two bedroom houses, and then there is this path that connects the two bedroom house to the second bedroom house. And along this path is were thinking of building a lot of the different structures the four domes that we start at the beginning tiny homes or cabins, and it's quite a lot of space and then here's the path leading to what's currently being used as an AIRBNB. This is a two bedroom house here there's water like there's Wells and storage areas and all kinds of stuff there Yeah. So the the fact that part of the properties on zone is very handy because it means there are fewer limitations on what we can build and how many structures we can build Yeah. The other side of the property is zoned agricultural. So does have limitations, but we are going to work with the local government to change the zoning so that we can have more structures among the farmland as well. Beautiful. Gets it's really nice it's about two hours from the local airport. From Nelson which is the nearest city five minutes of less five minute walk even to the nearest gas station. Not, quite a five minute walk but yeah, like five minute drive. Tons of kind of. Nature Activities The white rough rafting company nearby. And we're surrounded by crown land for quite a long ways going up north. Yeah. There's lot of places for hiking and dirt biking and stuff if you're into that. Yeah, there are two national parks just literally you know in the backyard there's it's it's the a world center for cat skiing I think is where cats game was invented. So it's the kind of tractor thing that drives up the mountain and then people ski from there Yes. There's quite a lot of winter activities as well. Think sometime, either this year or next year there's going to be a big a can of electric vehicle conference happening that one of our partners is helping to. So they'll be all types of different electric vehicles their. Dirt bikes, boats, e boats. One thing we're really excited about having this region 'cause. The A lot of the lakes connect in a network. So there's a lot of. To explore through voting. Yeah, and There's yeah. So kaslow's an interesting town, this closest town there is a lot of young kind of entrepreneurial people living there. So for how small it is, there's a lot of innovation happening There's an you innovation center that just opened there and Nelson all of these, a cultural center in the region where there's a lot of arts and festivals and things like that. Happening I just clicked replay here so we can stop anytime. We past the hour sweep probably should close out Any. Yeah, any closing thoughts for us here today Mike. Yeah, I'm so we're doing a kind of a social event tonight that Tyson is going to be hosting on this relates to the indigenous wisdom. We'll do breakout rooms and stuff. So we'll be there tonight at six o'clock six PM Pacific which will be nine eastern in working they find out about that Tyson Tyson. Post can you post the Zoom Registration Lincoln the chat your thank you or is here no. Okay I damn I. I was in and out of meetings guys. You came up quite a number of times. Your Am. Connect with me on Lincoln Everyone L. posts my link. Yeah so calls to action here check out the page feature dot org slash village. Tyson's going to post the link for the event tonight I. think that's kind of it. If you want to ask us more questions, will be there tonight. Maybe we can hang out later. we're going to be yeah I think that's it. We're we're still in the middle of our fundraising, but we've got more than half pledged already. So it's going quite well but if this is something that you're interested in contributing to then get in touch. And links and this show announcer not shown us the chat right now. Thank you for hosting us. This is awesome. Love what you're doing here so Hard of it. I'll make a closing announcements for the stolen a moment, but Mike you thanks so much for Stoa. If you ever need to start or me help you with this project, you know whatever reason just reach out I'll be happy to help him really supportive way guys doing. Thank you. So some coming announcements at the store we're actually doing something Kinda relevant. What was spoken about we're doing. Empathy Circle Training and within we can see that So Edwin Rachi does his empty circles concrete like you're listening muscle greater empathy or having a the medic mediation campfire. At three thirty, PM, Eastern Time Threat October, we're doing the training there. So if you're interested in that year's rsvp to the that which be pretty cool excited for that look, we can trade notes on on how stuff goes Mike in UV as well and at eight PM Eastern time So looks like the events are not going to cross each other we got another. Event coming up in an hour glimpses of communitize with Donna Rodriguez another sort of we space kind of collective presence seeing type thing you can higher speed there and if you have tons of events at the store, check it out stored at CA flight to support us on Patriot, you can do that as well. So again, Mike Uv Everyone thank you so much for the day. Mike. If you if you want to save the shots, you can you can just click on the little dots and you can save love people dropping some goodies. Oh Yeah One more thing I forgot Oh, everyone's leaving. Well, if you want to go join our community, go to feature dot org slash friend and you'll get two months off. We'd charged just because we have facilitators. helping US organize the content and stuff, but it's five bucks a month usually if you want to check it out for two months, then follow that link but did you give the link to dot org slash friend that gives too much free Cool. By everyone by. If you like this content, you might WanNa check out our seven ways to adapt to the future guidebook. Get it for free at future dot org slash sign up. You might also want to check out our future thinkers membership area. We have courses there help you adapt to the changing world, build resilience, upgrade culture, and society, and create meaning and purpose in your life as well. You'll get access to our community. All of our unreleased content private zoom calls live Cuny's with guests, workshops in events and more just go to members future thinkers dot org. And if you enjoy this video, please like sharing comment, it really helps our show more than you know if you want more like it than subscribe and hit that Bella come to be notified of videos. See you next time.

Canada Mike US STOA partner Europe Peter Yeah Cova KOOTENAI Mike UV Smart Village Stuart Peter Lindbergh Netflix Bulgaria Youtube Southeast Asia Ivan Nova Ryan Campbell Smart Village Series
Black Panther Makeup Artist Tym Buacharern

Scandalous Beauty - A Makeup and Beauty Podcast by Erin Baynham

1:14:16 hr | 3 years ago

Black Panther Makeup Artist Tym Buacharern

"You're listening to the scandalously. Podcast a makeup show hosted by. What's going on everybody. Welcome back to the show today. We have the absolute delight to travel to a kanda and to meet makeup artists. Tim be karen so tempted three of the leading ladies for our favorite movie black panther and that included lupita neon go who played in a kia the niagara who played okoye angela. Bassett was the queen ramona so among other things. Tim has been in the game for minute. He had a very long stint with janet jackson. He was around for the infamous super bowl incident He's not american crime story. The one that's out. Now the johnny research sake story He did house of lies with don shito. He did dreamgirls which is a huge one Did the miles ahead movie. He did the hunger games part. One california -cation. I'm just going down this list burlesque. White-collar seven pounds. I karl that's fun. So of course. We're going to talk about how he got started again. This is another story where using your network and getting to know people pays off big time. We're gonna talk about the differences between being a makeup artist and what he calls a makeup technician and we're gonna talk about a lot of his favorite products some of the processes that he goes through when he does make up for people and also some of the details that can be found on the actresses in black panther is a lot of stuff that i did not notice. And maybe it's because i was in the third row my necklace you know like cocked to the side and i could barely see and i was getting nauseous but you know after i see it again when there is more space i wanna take a better look to see if i can see these intricate details and all this work they put in so just want to let you guys know that if you haven't caught up last week we got two interviews anelle 'em hickman who is currently a freelance beauty editor and is working eh not doing digital beauty writing so check out that episode. If you're interested in being a beauty writer she had dropped a lot of information. She took a lot of the guesswork out of the process. So check that episode out to the podcast welcome. We have interviewed so many really icon ick artists and people in general sam finding esa rx nikki. -posedly james gianni leone. Who actually his movie return. Oh well he did he did the makeup for pacino in paternal joe paterno this week for hbo so that came out was awesome to see his work on the screen. Something new just all kinds of people so if you want to catch up on that you can always do that. Apple podcasts. stitcher. Google play spotify. Basically anywhere you can listen to a podcast and as always you can listen directly on my website scandalous beauty online dot com all right. Let's get into the episode then we let's just let's from the beginning and we wanna know how you got your star in in beauty. Oh my gosh Well i started with a dancer and When it was answering. I injured my lower back so while i was recovering. I got really bored. So and then you. They used to be a Like a What's that called Catalog like a trade school. Catalog came to my house to learning university. And i was like. Oh let me look through it talkie ou. The camera costs a lot of money. Then this printing than this everything on top of it. I can't afford that so i was like this. I'll make like oh. That sounds like fun. You could use mak- forever and a day. You know so i went to when did the course just for the fun of it and it was anything i was going to do. And then You know. I went back to thailand. Get some work in thailand and wind up doing some makeup out there kind of fell in love with it. And then when i came back to the states and i went into You know i'm like well. Maybe i'll just make up thing a try. I went to school for it. So we went to The background bunch of film set. You know when when you're doing extra work. I you wanna find is the The flip pretty for me. My whole thing was that wants to make up trailer. Who think part is here. I didn't know had who was a key player. Tell me you do make up. I'm gonna. I'm gonna sit down and talk to your ears off so i'm like you know i'm showing pictures of like remember. When did how. Long ago i remember wouldn't the normal size of print pictures with with Was it three by four finance four by six zero three five five four by six. I don't know we don't know my sister's four by six. That's a new one. It's the new one even before that. Oh this is going back into ninety early mid mid nineties so it was like the pictures of a little bit smaller and And i showed them those images and said hey. Let's you need somebody to come in and clean your russia's you know just anything to be around it and the first makeup artist that i went to call me up and said hey listen i haven't low. Budget show is paying fifty dollars a day. And you probably gonna work six days a week right. Say the week and you probably gonna work about fourteen hours a day. Oh no overtime no nothing. What do you think. I was fortunate enough. You know. I was fortunate enough to to to to save some coins from my dance career. And i was able to talk my parents and my parents said you know what if this is what you wanna try. Go it so they were. You know like what we'll help you with whatever you need and to. We did the job. And then i did that job. And it was a really low budget movie with An old football player named brian. Bosworth dubose i know. I don't think you'll probably you'll probably not old enough to remember. But and that at sorry. He's he's he's one of those one of those. Yeah and then when. I want to The the hair lady who show liked to me but she brought me on to another set at this point. Now i'm making seventy five dollars a day. I'm moving up moving up you know. Hey seventy five dollars a day. Let's go so after that. She she basically taught me how to do here. And and whatever else and then She left the show and I became department head on the second second show ever worked. No which what's hindsight to it. It wasn't great because for me. It was something that i wasn't ready to. Do you know but it was on such a low budget so that nobody really cares for the work was done. You know there was a it was of straight to video Roger cormon movies and it was. He was king of b. movies back in those days. You know like the the movie takes five days shoot. Oh situation yeah exactly. You know it's like you know. I mean think tyler perry but like really low like blow at tyler as a little bit better. I don't. I never work with him. But i hurt but you know something really like you know but but it. It became a school for me. You know so. I told you. Learn from that from that being in that place and from then i just you know My my world kinda guy. I switched over after. I got the whole thing because i thought i wanted you know in in film and tv. When i started and then my real totally took a different route. And i decided i wanted to print had no idea what that means at all. I called a. I was like well. I heard about this agency called ta let me give them a call like an idiot. I called and the lady who pick up the phone and spoke to name is tim I wanna make a part is i. I never called myself a makeup artist. As i wanna be a makeup artist and i wanted to do print and commercials and things like that. How to get into it and she was like well. Do you have a point. I'm like a a what. Oh yeah. I'm like support for you. She was like okay You're really greeting. I might guess angry. And i'll be the first one to admit to you that i'm very green. And she was like okay. It's your book is to showcase your work. I think well. I have some pictures. That i did when i was in thailand and have some. You know stuff like that that i could sure you do like now. It sounds like what you need to do testing. I'm like okay. What is testing. Do you like well where photographer Makeup artists hairstylists Wardrobe stylist get together and shoot pictures for your book. I was like okay. That's now where do i find it photographers. She was like okay. You know what it was hilarious because you know what it's like. I've always been a firm believer close mouth on you so hey i'm going to ask every question until you tell me enough so she was like you know what i see. You really wanna do this. I'm gonna do you have a fax machine. I'm like hold on one second economic days. We have the internet thing and you know so. I went through my yellow pages. Flip flip flip. Found a number for king goes and i said my fax number. This is my fax number. You could fax it to hear. Good attention. My name please. So sure enough. She faxed over there and believe it or not. It was The head booker a police agency. That was the one who supposed to meet maryland. So you know so so it was just one situation and and and after they got the live kind of called everybody and i said hey you guys testing you know i wanna shoot. Can we meet up. And i think there was about twenty photographers. That was testing on that list. Six contacted me back. And i'm still good friends with three of them and still work with them to this day. Oh my god. I was almost thirty and i was over twenty five years ago. Wow yeah so you can you can you kinda you kinda get rolling. Just go and do you know. I said you know it's like you. What if you don't ask you don't get you know And and then you know nasty you know my my you know from from the dance community. One of my girlfriend kelly. Konno was dancing. is a dancer. She was on tour dancing. And in ninety seven. You know only been. Don't make for four years at a point. You know so. I was like i. I already started doing like magazine. Shoot at fabrica. Charlie ron when she first came out You know got a bunch of actually back in those days you know there's a bunch of folks and You know all of a sudden like okay. well. I wanted to be music videos. I had a few things in komo shows. Few things here and there then I did a photo. Shoot for a friend of mine which i didn't really want to do. And he's well. I wanna be a model in japan. I'm like okay so he was like why don't we He's like can you help me. I'm like sure because it could be something that lee could be. Great for my book I knew it wasn't going to be but hey you know not no but clever. So next thing you know we We did the photo shoot. And i love all this girl came in. I'm like whoa hold up. I thought i'm only doing you. He's like nope it into girl came in one. Fda the i think i. I'm like. I'm telling you i shoot hate slapping makeup on people i didn't even know and then one of my friends. Kelly konno came in and did her makeup. She loved the way she looks. And and Was that didn't think anything of it cut to About a month later my agent. I was still dancing at the time. My dad's agent called me and said. Hey listen i got really weird. Call the other day. I'm like what Janet jackson's people want information. I'm like what i'm like. Then why are you calling me. Why don't just give them a number. You know so she was like i just wanna make sure it's okay mic Janet call madonna call prints call whoever held one name single name number and that was that and came to find. I forgot about it that kelly was actually john one of janice dancer who that was a good one that is. That's a great story and in. Yeah in the. I don't know i've interviewed. Maybe fourteen or fifteen people at this point. Nobody's story has ever been the same. But the overarching factor has always been like. You can't sit around and wait for it to come to you. You have to go and grab it and oh that's great. You have to it just like it just like you. You know you know when when people sit there and go god. I got to lose weight just sitting on the couch eating a bag of potato chips how you gonna lose weight. If you don't get off your ass and go through your things. And i think where. I think that's that's kind of where the oh god i might sound like an old man right now. That's where the young desperately the difference between the younger generation that i have dealt with and the older generation the older generation. You know i'm almost fifty. So you know honey agent don't raisin right. Oh my gosh oh my gosh. My whole week is made. That was amazing. Yeah i mean it just it just like like to me. My generation is. I feel like we had to make. We have to make things happen. And then and then The generation nowadays to me is i To me i more. What about me generation like you have it. It's like you have it. Well what about me. But you're not willing to go out and do your thing but but rather than sitting at home and page on things but you know but but what about me so. We're more of an instant gratification generation. Meeting much to me. I feel like this generation is in. That's one hence that's why the social media thing is so big you know because a lot of people sit there and post something on. Why do people post pictures on social media for attention. Who for likes because people sit there after the post they go likes so far so far. Yeah so it's like you see people. I see people sitting there flipping through is like like okay. You just posted two seconds out. And i see you pull down thing about five times already within the past five seconds to see how and i'm like really young you know like why don't you do the job and let let let the accurate come because the job that you debt versus you know like i said i'm sound like an old man 'cause no but this is exactly why i am always telling myself that i cannot quit this because these are things that people need to hear learn digest and actually use like us this podcast as a resource and when someone who's freaking. Imdb goes from doing b-list movies to doing make up for the number one movie. A billion dollar movie in a month. I mean these are things you need to listen to. So i'm i'm glad you're saying them so thank you. Thank you very much problem. Nope rommedahl. Yeah it's it's it's kind of funny because When are you talking about black panther billion dollar film and it's so funny to me that i'm getting so many private messages in my every single social media aspect and facebook. My my instagram. Whatever you know and people actually calling me up and asking me and say thank you. I'm like thank you for. What thank you for things like. Women look looking beautiful. I'm like does not need me for that. I'm just doing my job. That's what i'm trying to do. That's what i get paid to do you know and it just it just kind of in automated people feel like they seen their coloring being right you know and i and i and i get it i get it i see it but it just like to me just like it doesn't just work. This is what i get paid to do this. What what. I went to school to do. Yeah this is what twenty something odd years in my career train me to do you know and i don't need change. Some color is completely to make them. You know and and and to make them look right because i i can't do that. Color alternate pulping to make it look decent. I mean yeah so speaking of that so because of course we have questions. We had a bunch of people submit questions. When you're applying. 'cause people were excited. I'm excited. I ran around the house and all that kind of stuff going crazy just because i was so excited. This is amazing but as far as makeup went for black panther which. I didn't mean to jump here but i'm glad you did it because it needs to be taught though this is there's no order to any of this. I'm curious about how much makeup you actually use. It seems like an every podcast episode. We talk about this whole instagram makeup phenomenon or even like a youtube where people were practically putting on as much makeup as humanly possible to execute a look. Gosh i'm like okay. You know what. I sometimes i i do. I i'm guilty. I do watch the instagram. I do watch some of the You know some of the youtube channels and things like that like and sometimes it's not sometimes because it's good and sometime because it's horrible. What could they possibly have done to to to create that. Look it just it just like a train wreck you see car accident. You just can't look away. You know and i don't use a lot of makeup. I mean it's like it's all about you know it's our thing is for me. I don't. I don't like using a lot of makeup. I like being the skin. Peter lindbergh when i shot him with janet in For the pepsi commercial. He told me the best thing for me to do is making the skin look. Flawless and the skin would never look flawless. If you cannot see their own skin underneath ooh because you take away all the textures everything now and as i. It took me a while to understand what he meant. And that's always been my philosophy now as long as you can see the skin underneath always gonna be is gonna give illusion being being which is not not perfect in. Yes god thanks but it is perfect for you looking like a prettier version of youth. And i think the mega trends now a day. It's been going for a while. Is how to make a woman. Looked like a man trying to be a woman. And that's what and that's what the trend is. And and i think people need to understand women need to understand if you look at okay if you watch woman walked right and then when they tried to go sexy and they start moving the hips like a drag queen right. The whole thing is why. Are you moving your hips. Lean to the drag queen muzi. That much is because they don't have them natural fits. They're moving that much to what you already have. You know and and people need to remember that you can brace your own embraces you for you and and you know and it's like sometimes it's just it's just funny to me it just you know but i don't know how i went from from makeup to a. It was a great analogy. People needed to hear it probably outside of that lens. So thank you for doing it. No problem but it's always funny to me because it's like it's like you guys you know i mean i make up i used. I used three different colors for makeup. I use the base color contract. Colleague highlight colors. Which is same thing. That i've got but i use a drop of each then. I blend together. I blame them. Altogether birthing using half a bottle of each. You know and and and i've been very fortunate like i'm black panther. The ladies have beautiful skin. So i think you need to do too much and what i usually like to do is i what i do is i used to foundation first and then use the conceal her to cover. What's only needed to be cover. Not the whole face you know not taking conceal it and to use that as a highlighter and and and then all of a sudden you start looking like a doll versus looking like yourself like you know i mean so my whole thing. Yeah it just it just you just. You just have embraced what you guys girl. Then you don't need to be you know you've got big nose. Hey if contouring it gonna make you feel better do it. If you ain't got a problem with it bother with it. Yeah take that take that extra half hour or the hours you make and do something else with it you know. Go spend spend time with your brand go. Spend time with your family. You know there's better things to do than didn't try to pack along fifty pounds of makeup and you only use every single to rain on your face either just because you have. I met dummy you need to do it. Yeah relieving so relieved. Thank you for saying all of these wonderful things because it it just makes a lot it just my philosophy and and i say the things that i say is like is what i do it might be necessarily what do you do and if you could take what i say and apply to yourself and that's great if you can't is therefore is there for the taking and whoever wants to take i laughed yes and this is this is good. This is exactly what we need to to hear. Because i mean social media at this point is completely oversaturated with that look it is it is lake cover every poor cover every scar every blemish and matt it down highlight the hell out of it. It needs to have shimmer here here here and here make a bigger. I mean it's just it's at. I mean i just wonder what the children are learning. What are they thinking. What are they thinking of themselves. And it's like come on you guys come even kadarshian result or it. They don't even do that. Look anymore and i mean it's not an at and i know i know. I know everybody talks about him. The started to contouring situation Anything as you know. What i cam. Contouring has been done for billions of years. You know it was done back into days from the days because drag makeup the drag makeup actually came from from that time because women were not allowed to stage so all the all the female roles were played by men. So they were doing drag way back that we're doing conjuring highlighting from way back. Then you know and and people talking about you know no Mario have been doing the noon. Kim zillion years. Mario does a beautiful job on kim. But the problem. Can the problem came when people on instagram or well before instagram. When people on youtube taking take a look at the situation. Oh i could recreate that. The only way that could recreate it basically doing fifty pounds up on my on my face. You know what i mean. And and i think i think is like you know and and i think kim look. Kim looked beautiful. I think patrick patrick. I'm sorry. Mario did a great job on her. And it just a matter of how people interpreted that look you know more so than anything else. Yeah yeah and then and then when you start seeing one person does it. And then who has a million followers and then next thing to follow stock doing it. So the whole everybody becomes saturated with it yep the look become saturated and i think that's what i think that's what we're tired of. It's a saturation of it. You know like. I said you know. I'm i'm i like. I like instagram. I like i like going onto On instagram and look at people's make and actually I do take inspiration from from stuff they did but i take their the way dated it. But i'm gonna adjust to the way. That tim what they would. Yeah yeah so it's like it's like no everything is inspired from somebody else you know and when when people tell me ask me but like really and again you know nothing is new everyb- everything is inspired by somebody else you know and and and that's and that's the way that's the way it is. I didn't even know what you asked me. Look at me just rambling. That wasn't a ramble. That was you speaking the god on his truth and we thank you for it. We know this is. This is exactly what makes it so much more valid for people because it's like they take the influencers and you know these mega you know instant celebrities and youtubers. And they're like yes. This is the holy grail. This is what i have to do. But it's not until you see a movie or a tv show. And hopefully i mean. I don't even know if people think like this. I hope they do. But i hope they see these celebrities the people that they look up to you know that are like unattainable you know high and mighty and rich and everything and see their faces and say like i want to look like that like they don't look extra they don't look i mean i love it. You said that you're using like a drop of products. Let's talk about that for a second. are you like. Are you a liquid foundation fan or are you a cream what would what would you be using on the set are you. Are you everything on on the set. I use whatever i feel. It's necessary for for for the the face. I'm working on it. That point. you know if if somebody has amazing skin and i would actually use liquid because it covers easily and it also share enough for this. I could share enough to the skin. Could come through you know. And it's the who has a little You know the needs a little more coverage. I'll go into the cream coverage and everything is not it's not about peeling off a mask from wall and put it on that face and put it on every faces you know. It's it's about adjusting it to the person that's sitting in front of you at that point you know and and and and doing what you're doing what you're you're dopp. Title is is a makeup part to unite. I mean so you need to. You need to underlie a you anytime. Just end art of makeup. You know so you don't. It's not like you know. Have you ever seen like artists that when somebody spaces some People stay and they all look exactly the same. Yeah social media exactly and and and it's like it's a stamp. Yeah yeah a lot of those artists technicians. Oh that's the difference between technicians and artists. You know technicians are okay. I know eyebrows supposed to be like this. I know the highlight goes here. I know i know the points. It'd be like i now so basically you know it just like everything is so mathematical. Excuse me but when an artist comes in you sit down like okay. This is a little lower in this is all. I need to do this to just that. Even with i and okay so you just as good here you can hear your little darkened is even that up. You know what. I mean so so does does color correction. There's an art art to go into it. You know verses everybody's gonna get the same. Look you know so as far as consumer products like every brand. Has you know like all these primers. You have to have and you gotta have this you know highlight palate or whatever blah blah blah. Are those things that you would typically use on people or is that really just like a consumer you know myth or like you know they're just trying to. I rarely use any primers unless the client asked for it. They are some great timers out there. That i feel a great a lot of primaries out there very silly tony and very three so it actually does the opposite of what it's supposed to do it. Actually making me the slip and slide you know And also the other thing is. I came up from generation. Primers only been around what. How many years past ten years probably. Yeah yep yeah. It hasn't been around that long. I've been makeup a twenty something. Odd years never used it. It ain't broke. Don't fix it on never. It's one of those things and also if you learn how to skin properly if you learn how to do the skin there properly if you do the prep station properly if you prepping to skin properly and guess what can happen the make up his can stay on it just like it the way we do. We do makeup is like building a house right so basically before you do be before you do before you build a foundation to home you have to prep the land. You gotta make sure that yeah i. I don't know anything about building a house. But let's say you know let's say you have to pack the landau. Pretty pretty tight. Make sure to house doesn't sink in you know and then you build the foundation on top of it got foundation to be strong so that you know the the wolf doesn't come and blow your house down and then you know and and so it it. It's just like if you look at that way it. It's kind of like okay. Well yeah so this has to. It did have to go on how to lock on. And then after that and the i shadowed everything else. It's it's become like the window-dressing furniture you put in the house and things like that so if you're not if you're not doing this properly if you're not prepping the skin properly if you're not putting the foundation on properly then then how do they. How do you expect things to stay. Is i one thing for me. Like when i'm on set. I literally to sit on and look at people up. And i know exactly if it's somebody younger. The younger generations doing to make up with the older generations. They're gonna make up. 'cause all generation look lazy. Because you sit around right you don't get up and just as we get up when necessary but but the younger generation will hop every two seconds because they make up his getting shiny getting stunning kidding me because you prepping to skin properly okay. Well now not prepping things properly and that when when we gotta talk about skin practice because i am dying to know this technology even if you don't go into products although we would love it because we love a good namedrop somebody did ask what your favorite way was to prepare the skin for product and you kinda just have been thrown at us. So we're we're dying to know well for me when you prepping the skin. You gotta look at the skin. One thing is anything. This overly oily. We'll fly to make up. So i you need to want i like doing is using A good attention. Obviously you know when when an actor come in. I i used the On my gosh. Now you're gonna. I'm gonna it's actually you're gonna make me go to my bathroom and look you know I use a the first thing i do. Is i have a little light. Light exfoliating From a branko. Jura j. a. r. a. It enzymes so. Because i want to explore the gate to dead skin lightly. Nothing major so that clean off the skin and from that point on i love using the blue stringent from kiel. To clue you know. Take take off as much oil as possible. And then i like using the mario badescu I'm oil free Moisturizer suicide prepping scan and before one the one that goes on there and i make sure literally and i think a lotta time. The problem is with people. Is that as soon as you put the moisturizer on moisturizer on you go straight into flat out foundation on. Give it a minute. Put your foundation. Put down your moisturizer. Go make yourself a cup of coffee. Come back before you put a little lip on your lips. Gelo ice cream on you know. And then that's that's that's that's pretty much about all i all i do because a lot of people think well why do use oil free your skin naturally oil up regardless you what i mean. If your skin what well up his itself we'll will naturally produce oil so your skin. Your body is actually going to bring back to well before the so so you know. Use majority or free stuff. Oh that was good outdo. But don't you worry. Come monday morning. When i put my makeup on i will be using your tips. I do enjoy like skin care routine but i. I don't think i ever let my moisturizer say like lip balm and ice cream. Add never do that. No so that's correct. It's sad because the because everything else don't forget you putting product on your face and you having it give it time for it to soak into your skin. Put it on your face and how make a couple of an you know. Usually after do skin care under Prep face i have a loan espresso machine in on the back bar and i look at my actress and go. Hey you want some coffee tea. And i would walk over and make them a little coffee make them a little t come back you know having a little key moment and then and then and then we started working you know or them i then i didn't. I'm here to come back to me. So that way the product is you put on actually has time to do what it's supposed to do. You know 'cause i i know. A lot of people just literally put moisturizer skin and as soon as finished with the moisturizer and did like Okay we're gonna put makeup on now. Yeah yeah and and so. It's it's it's slipping flooding all over the place. You don't want to fly. You want you want the product to do what what is meant to do. Those are fantastic. Actionable tips that we will all be applying so for that. We're going to the bathroom. That was so sweet of you to make that extra effort to tell us what you're actually wanted to product. I really loved at night And at night when after you take your makeup off in the whole thing and I always enjoy has another oils covered by taliban oil which i love putting on at my actress and send them home because that way they feel like a little they feel like they're getting back to skin and you know and and and and have a walk around with it and they'll love to the next morning because when they get home they're gonna sleep with that and then they get up in the morning and it just like and nice plump and just delicious. Oh my gosh we will be ordering. Don't you worry person company okay. Everybody but feeling product. So you know. It's okay yeah good yeah. You can't beat that so you know. Yeah so i am going to rush through this. Because i'm not keeping you on all night going through your into your portfolio again. I've realized i mean you've had every job done. You've been the department head and the key in the makeup artist and designer and make up designer and so many different things. so do you have a favorite position not necessarily all depend on the project Like for me. Obviously i'm in dreamgirls. I was like i i need to. I need to be able to to design that show you know and and and so that one was like it was like one of those one of those job as i actually chased to get that job i was like no i need to get a job and you know and and it's one of those things is like You know my girlfriend camille friend. Who's the department here on on on that project. And i'll do department hit here on black panther and we met. We met working on. Pirates of the caribbean in dominica and we ran into each other again at At a party. And we're like oh my gosh. She's like. I need that job and he should does a film happening and she's like one like what's what film is it like dreamgirls. I'm like I need that job too so you know and and and anyway so that kind of job. I'm like no definitely. I'm i'm chasing down but you know i've been a part of i've been the key which is the second position on in on on the show which is supported support to the department head which has has fun you know and and and i have been a makeup artist and which to me when when you say make. I called a makeup artist. Third on joe and everything else like when day. Play and things like that and every it's important so important because it but in a different way you know for me is like you know. In the past past couple of years. I kinda purposely decided want to depart and hit a lot of shows what i wanna sit back more in supporting row which is great. You know i got. And i got i was able to support you know my my girlfriend. aaron krueger on on besides on on On feud. and you know on and on versatility and you know and and sometimes it's kind of fun to go day playing because you get to hang out with you get too close to your friends you got to go hang out with your friends. It'd become like more social thing. You know you kind of get to hang out and just chill out you know department had always know. There's a lot of responsibility that goes with it. You know you're you're you have to make sure to vote is on point. You have to make sure that you're you know that you make sure your team. Is you have thrived team. And you to talk to you. The producers you're gonna make sure division directors directors. You know comes comes out the way that they wanted to. They wanted to come out. You know but like like every every single. Like i said resistance is really important and really great because the whole thing with the The department head if it doesn't matter if you have a An additional coming in. And i see when i day play. I like to call myself. Not make up are just number ninety five you know like what do you want. What do you want me to put them all. Do you wanna be ugly blue on them. I know problem. That's your choice. But at the same time as the responsibility of it of department head is that if somebody in the back if somebody sees something. That doesn't look right. Us department had blamed for everything. I mean it's a big responsibility a lot. And as i am for me. It's just mind which. I hate those assholes. Department headache go. Oh actually. i didn't do that. My my background prisons does that. You know what that's not how you that's not how you deal with the with the with the situation you got okay. I'm sorry i make sure we'll correct that situation. You don't throw anybody else into the bus because as the department had when that nobody number ninety five does a great job. Guess we'll activate you do so. Guess what happens when you don't when when the thing that goes wrong you should get the blame also then after that you go to you. Speak to your makeup artist ninety five and tell them. Hey we need to change this this this this and this you know and and and to me like a lot of lot of a lot of a lot of is operatives like everything is so like every department is so i mean every single position is so important especially film you know like like go back to doing girls because everyone of the people that on camera that's going to be seen on camera has to look period appropriate. Yeah so it doesn't matter if if that suzie q. Who's sitting up in the nosebleed section of the theater if the camera catches We need them to look properly. They need we need them to look right. So you know. And i the question of which one i enjoyed the most no problem. I loved every minute of it. Go ahead no i. I actually enjoyed doing. I think all of them. I actually enjoy every single. One of those Position just it. Just a matter of where i am in my life at the time that make sense it totally makes sense. Ooh that was. That was fantastic. And you tell us a lot. I mean a lot of our lay people like we just think makeup artist or makeup artists and don't realize there are so many different positions to be had so yeah it was great to hear that that process Oh yeah it's it's huge. A huge team is like literally when we dreamgirls. When i drink girls it was. I had three full-time on top on top of fulltime. I had four other makeup artist in the trailer till seven of us all together in one trailer getting to principal through and then at the and then on top of that. The background counts. I wanna say we had about twenty eight is a day. Get the background done. And it was no joke. It's like the first day we were shooting. I think my call was three. Am and i went and looked at the Look at the background. Saying good morning to people who is working in the background and i literally walked in there I know joke. I walk in there and it was a line coming out after dealer and i was like damn y'all hungry everybody's coming in for breakfast. No i walked down those people who's winning to check in and go through here and make a. Oh yeah oh oh you know. And that's a lot of work it's like we're like we're like makeup. We went to early early ones to come in palpitation. Always come in or we do to open things up and had it ready to get there you know. We went the first one and we're one last one to leave because we had to clean to actress up was the same thing with black panther. You know like mantha. We came in. We come in. You know like five. Am five four or five am in the morning to get people done and And for me my thing was doing Deny and angela. When i first started to show all three ladies and it was just one of a situation and lupita has a wig. Denies shave you know. And angela has has the What's that called the crown thing you know so pretty much okay. Denies go and get her tattoos on her head and i start with little pizza and pizza's done denies still into that too. I bet angela. Done and angela gets done and after i Have denies so it was like you know is an assembly line and really early. We we work. And then you know and and then and then because of This to the cleaning up process is is is at least another hour after work after the camera. Wrap the hour on top of it with those looks. It's the the department head that does the research figures out what those looks are gonna be. And then he or she tells you how far as far as As far as jane doe harlow our department was very very generous with me able to let me because he knows my strengths. Like obviously Santa wednesday african american. As i was getting tones. I very much my. That's what i'm known for. You know. I'm that's what i'm known for it so So he kind of let me allow me to create create my own thing and obviously you have to show that the characters and you have to make sure that the The make up fits the character you know as far as like been concerned. Her kodiak clear you make up this really ever gonna change when she goes south. Korea definitely gonna change a little bit because you know it's it's at that point. She's undercover otherwise. She's going to be the same the whole time. And you know and and as far as the actors concerned to actors and we're very You know i have. I i have ideas and You know and when we when we're talking like well what did he think it. Well first of all you're bald and you have big asset to is like even though you were general of an army i wanna make you feminine to keep you somewhat feminine and pretty you know and well. That girl can't help it to look pretty. But you know i want her. I wanna work against all the toughness. That's going on all the metal that she's wearing on on her body you know and and all this stuff and so we purposely to create her. Look we we the kind and also we did the inverted canonize. But it's a little point in the center of your face to just kind of keep it to give a little. 'cause black panther is somewhat of the cat so we're you know we kind of want to give it a little. Yeah so we see you know. And then and and then you know during her lips like giving her contour and giving her her her her sheen who skin you know and i wanna make sure looks like she's been eating berries versus putting on red lipstick on her. You know i want everything to look very natural versus you know so. There was a lot of thought that went into it. Like you know as far as Angeles character concerned. We just wanted to keep her very regal. Yeah just wanna keep a regal. Just very very beautiful clean. You know not trying to do way to in the only you know when we did the smokey i when we went into the the ceremonial luck and and and things like that and as far as lupita concerned thing her her makeup kind of changes the most because obviously she's a spy so when she goes out in in you know in in in the beginning of the movie where she was yeah undercover and obviously. She's not going to go into full face apply. You know lashes and lipstick. So she's an cover so it's and when you know if you notice when she back in kanda we kinda clammed up. You know a little bit more. And then when she goes into career obviously we kind of went full out with it with three nine shadow. And if you look at it. Everything be lupita from river tribe so the color for river tribe. If you notice in the movie everything is very everything she wears as a hint of green in it. Now you're gonna have to go see it again. Two billion dollar movies. Ask when i look at this again baby. I will remember all that green. Yeah that's great. If you look at it it's like everything is the teacher and ruth. Retarder really really went and and and you know and then it and that's why we did the green i shadow. And then you know we. We actually had Mails done on makita. That was really wasn't sane except for the for the one scene when she walks down the The casino the casino when her arm. What her hand she was when she had her She when she was basically hooking arms with with with chats character and you could see a little humor glimmer of green on there do was only thing that's like the hour and a half of males art that we did Wow the only thing that was seen. Wow you know but it was. It was it was beautiful. I enjoy doing it. Why don't do if you've seen the movie. There's a lot of what conduct in what conduct is certain letter lettering so that was done so we to lettering from the we. We took the lettering from the From kanda and we put that on her nails just to give a little. Give it a little edge. You know is one of those situation you know like not now but when you look it again you'll see doing your dream rebuilt. It's reflecting look at the data letter bit. That's what tim was talking about. Yes whether that was a you know. And that's all it's one of those things. Like i said know it was like it was very and i think the most had was doing d- Doing the ceremonial luck. All this face painting dead on the move you know doing doing d- The doing the challenge. You know like i was so i'm so happy that you know i have like back. Does that very very much into and they're very much very Very thought about the looks. What look they want how they want it to look. They're like okay. Lupita character is if you would equate them to attract. That's going on right now. She's part of zulu part of this but it so we went in and did all that research and then we were like. Oh my gosh. How cool would it be. If we actually make using what we feel that people from those tribes would use on their selves. So we wind up doing all those little dots little circles that we that did you guys see on her face. We went and took waterways. You know like the little small bamboo and we we got dry. When we pop it off. We pop it all off. So he's around circle and we used that put the dot com with. Yeah with that. And then the The the lines that go across the face that was made with Was with with with What what the hell's he called. It's like a grass. it's a dry grass. So we use that to put the stripe on and it was the most amazing thing. It was one of the most such a fun thing to do. You know that's brilliant. That's brilliant an authentic and you know as authentic it is it can be in the movie. Yeah that's great. That's gotta be trying to recreate that sucker every day. Oh my you know kanu even thought about that making it look the same all the time but we wind up going like kinda like i kinda knew the placement of it you know and and we used three different sizes often the reads so we You know so we kind of okay. This works here. Just worked here so it was it was it was amazing. It was it was so much fun. I was so happy that i was able to do something that creative and doing something that that you know lupita it like it makes it makes me feel that That put me into my character. I'm glad it. Has you know what we did that for you. Then i'm like i'm really happy. Yeah that was everything. Then like gives me goosebumps because it was. You know beyond did you. Did you guys think that movie. This movie was going to be this huge success. It i have a feeling. I really had to feeling about it because when we were shooting i keep on telling lupita. It's like tiny isn't gonna be week either. Gonna i'm i don't know why my guts telling me we're gonna beat everything you don't want malls movie and and and you know we're we're almost there. Yeah yeah we're almost there you know we're we're only four weeks in crazy you know. Well we're four weeks in and we're you know we're we're you know and it was it. We knew we were doing something special. Yeah when we were shooting it. So that's why. I think a lot of went out of our way to try to make things for them to you. And it's one of those things when we start seeing the image. Come to light when you start seeing the makeup they hear the wardrobe and then it comes to life and then you walk outside. You're like oh we're in the middle of Base camp and then when you see those actors actually walking walk into the set you know that You know that that. Hannah did such an amazing job putting it you know designing it and when you actually when you see them stepping into the element it was such an amazing thing to see. You're kinda like oh shoot. Let's go you know and it just it would just. It was such an amazing thing to be to be in that place. You'd go to watch. Yeah yes your work on that screen you you have to. I'm leaving. you are leaving you with the spinal thing. Because i will get sliced if i don't ask but can you leave us your favorite products especially for women of color. Foundations brushes lip colors. Whatever you'd like to tell us you know what a lot of people asleep like. Okay yes let me give you let me let me give you my pet peeve. I okay. And i'll give you the Biggest pet peeve for me is when makeup companies decide to do away with darker skin tone foundation because they feel is not selling quote unquote okay and now with movies like black panther coming out and people darker skin tone and now you. You don't have product to cater to that company. Did to that group. You know it bugs the shit out of me but one thing i have to say the foundation landco blanco foundation. Y'all i'm letting you know don't sleep on him. Don't sleep on him. Nice good to know liquid foundation. I mean like. I got you know. And and i have to say lou pizzas. Makeup was all done with comb. I love it. 'cause that's why bought it and it's not and it's not about and it wasn't about that she was home. It's about that he worked. Okay and also the other thing that i love. You know But it was the color nour's the blush they have. I know everybody taught orgasm but That's a color toward t. o. r. i. d. It's such a beautiful color to us i love. I love my aj cranston. You know but the thing with aj what i would do. Actually be when you've been in. Aj would be the first one to tell you guys to. Is that after you put onto foundation take a tissue and put it over your face and then just press it all the oil out of it so that it just keeping so you basically taking the oil off and you just keeping pigment on and that sucker is so beautiful he he did a fabulous job and Got i'm trying to think what else i i've been using domestic nasa. Her loose powder baby. Nothing is no joke. Folk thing is no joke. I'm telling you now like you know she. She created something beautiful. So i'm like you know what. I'm really happy for her. You know and allie. Vanessa and i only met each other once so i i. It's not like it's not a friend you know it just like The product works nice. Nice that's awesome. And that's and that's what i if people look at my instagram. If you notice. It's like i always i mainly inscribed by the things that i the companies that i use and i don't you know like i had so many products and to me I think i could give. I could give Safar run for their money. You know so Pretty much. I get so many products Centimeter like you know. Oh my gosh. Urban decay. oh shit is it called The eyeliner pencil. It's a pin at the. Okay okay. I is a felt depend liner Oh my gosh. What the hell is that is like. Did i for the blackest darkest black and it just it just gorgeous it just it just gorgeous i yeah see. Now you're making me. Think about what else i like. I'm not trying to. I'm not trying to put y'all in debt to go buy everything you do not have to worry. March was the three paycheck month for for many of us regular folks. So don't you even worry a little extra code are your work you know. But i'm but at the same time. I mean i mean i i go expensive too cheap i go. I even use the wet and wild the lip their pencil number. Don't don't don't say the name don't don't about the name six six. Oh okay. That's what that i don't know why the hell the name back color the that it's a beautiful nude color. Oh yeah so you know. So i use i use everything used. We go from from from from the from the cheapest through the most expensive you know. And it's not and it's not it's not about the brand you guys it's really not about. The brand is not about the product. Just make sure you get good quality product split your money on your foundation on your skin care stuff and the mascara you could go to Lori al the luminous i love. You know You know an and there's so many so many product you know. There's so many frigging lower end like i said like the six six m from when and wild and guess what i also do. I go to the ninety nine cents store and buy lashes. you know. you don't need to go you you don't need to go and spend i mean i know something to brands mean and you know are done lashes beautiful. And they're not that expensive you know 'cause people like oh my gosh. This person came last year and and need to buy that. I'm like okay. Go ahead and spend twenty thirty dollars on that dan lashes. And how long does it last you keep on saying. Oh you you could reuse it over and over and over again is honey at the most you get three wears out of it you know because once you put the glue on you got to make sure you you gotta make sure you learn how to clean the glue. Makes everything comes off. Make sure you don't don't put too much mascara onto onto the bomb onto onto the last. You know i mean onto the lashes because otherwise it's ruined so you know it's okay go go get something cheap and just use something. You'll have to spend all that money you know. So yeah i would be real really very nice. Cosmetic companies only that's only probably assigned to bigger prion companies majority of the companies. That are that you see. It actually comes out of maybe five factories. Jesus so pretty much. Everything is being done in the same story out. Some ingredient changes might change a bit. But you know but it's it's pretty much you pretty much some of the and it's the same thing as a low end and different packed. What i'm saying. Yeah i la la fifty dollars dollars you do the math what tendencies. Thank you me too. You know but like. I said like i said skin care foundation. I would school high everything else. Go that you know well. That's the new motto and that's great because some of the stuff out here is just it blows my mind how expensive it is in. All it takes is one influence are getting it off for free and saying you know they're wearing you know three hundred dollars worth of stuff on your face and you feel like you have to go get it. Yeah no no. What if they jump off a bridge like mom used to say to jump off a bridge. You're gonna jump off with them. Yeah come on you know and it's like and my whole thing. Is that the thing i have to say. You buy debase a when when neutrons come out. You don't need to go out and buy everything of the new trend you do. What looks good on you. You don't do what the quote unquote the trends are. Okay because if the trend set that you're gonna have you're gonna wear such purple is shadow. Looks like he's just got into a fistfight with You know with george foreman or mike tyson. Are you gonna wear that. If we don't look right on you and it doesn't look right on you so you know what just make yourself feel look good and feel good and don't let anybody said you can't wear anything you want to wear. It's just you just basically have to adjust it to make sure looks right on you. Just make sure that you you adjust the hue of color that you wanna wear to make sure that it looks right on you okay. Let's get darker skin tone and you want to blue eye shadow right. Go with the deeper deep tone and then pop a little a little a little taller on top of it. Yeah like what we did like. I did with lupita. Because i'm sure like one of those things like green nobody. I don't think anybody thinks i shuttle with somebody who's got dark but look you know if i'm looking place on you know you just have to play with any anything you wanna do. You can do. And guess what is just make up. It washes right off. Don't forget about that. Yes drop the mic to aria episode. I hope you enjoyed it. Tim was a lot of fun to talk to. he really did. Give us inside scoop on what it was like to work in and film and and all those tidbits about the movie that we love so much. Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode. And to the podcast in general every time you share the episode and we get new listeners. It really helps validate why this show is important. So i can't thank you enough for sharing the podcast with people you know. That might be interested If you have any questions or if you wanna reach out and listen to more episodes. I'm on scandal. I'm on instagram scandalous beauty. And you can also find me at scandalous beauty. Online dot com. Thank you for listening. And i will see you or the next episode piece.

thailand lupita neon okoye angela don shito em hickman janet jackson james gianni leone dreamgirls Bosworth dubose Roger cormon Konno Charlie ron Kelly konno rommedahl Mario Tim Peter lindbergh youtube
FTP110: Q&A with John Vervaeke

Future Thinkers Podcast

2:00:52 hr | 1 year ago

FTP110: Q&A with John Vervaeke

"Hi everyone this is the first video in our live. QNA series and today. We're very grateful to have John Ridicule with us. In as many of you know we've been doing the weekly watch parties Watching and discussing his awesome lecture series called awakening from the meaning crisis. And you can find those on our youtube channel. We also did an interview with John few months back. And if you want to you watch that you can go to future thinkers dot org slash ninety eight and So if you don't know John. He's a lecturer at the University of Toronto. Oh and actually he just got tenure congrats. I'm now officially an associate professor associate professor now. And so he's He works in the departments of psychology cognitive science and Buddhists psychology and So today we'll be discussing some some of those subjects as well as his lecture series on the meaning crisis and today in this Q. and A. We are joined by several of our future thinkers members who have been participating in our weekly group's making calls Where we practice collective intelligence and if you want to find out more about how to become a member you can go to members that future thinkers dot org so without much further ado? Let's jump into the questions. Hey and welcome to future thinkers dot org podcast about the evolution technology society and consciousness. I'm Michael and if you need to the show and you WANNA get a list of our favorite books popular episodes and to rejoin our community. Go to future dot org slash start could i. I just say thank you for inviting me and It's a great pleasure to be here. You're as I've already mentioned. I have dipped in and watch some of these watch parties already and I'm very greatly impressed by the caliber of the discussion and deeply appreciative of this is what I most want people to be doing with this series getting together discussing most what I want to be happening around this series. Miracle go thank you. We were hoping at one point you would just surprise the group and jump into one of the random discussion advice. I actually considered it a couple times times. Five I've talked to people and they said you might. That might not be good idea. You might suddenly intimidate people and interrupt the flow of the conversation so I thought God of this format was optimal. Because people come forewarned they know what the situation is and it doesn't feel like I'm a intrusive being some sort of intrusive authoritarian presents so that was sort of what I decided. Well since we didn't get any hands going up David I'm just GONNA throw it to you as always do all right. Yeah and I actually wrote it out But I will start with somebody. My question relates to wisdom of crowds ouds versus the madness of crowds and particularly related to collective relevance realization. It's something that I've been long curious about baton wondering about how that works but after watching the lecture series you know I've been really came melting collective relevance realization in it occurs to me that detecting collective bullshit is is a much harder problem than detecting personal bullshit is a different level problem there and it's a really interesting and I noticed example that you and Jordan got some pretty strong comets. It's back on your youtube. Video about religion is not a religion around the technology. Piece that you're cooperating. And some curious from your perspective what are the top opportunities. -TUNITIES and challenges of developing collective Practice wisdom practice but ideologically and as a really great question I mean it. It's kind of the central question of my work right now Some of you may know. I'm working on a follow up series after socrates the per- The pursuit of wisdom through authentic dialogue. And this is the central question about How how do we do something? Analogous with collective intelligence that you saw me argued for in this series so argued for individual cognition that intelligence is necessary but in no way sufficient proportionality and the rationality each mode of rationality is necessary but insufficient for wisdom. And that we have to do this. Very systematic education pedagogical project in order to get to something like wisdom. And so I. I'm arguing where I'm exploring going to craft an argument that I think we can do something analogous with distributed cognition. So there's a lot of discussion of collective intelligence right now that makes sense. Because that's what we can directly access but I think collective intelligence is similarly in a very strong analogy insufficient we need collective rationality. We need collective wisdom Now I don't think those two things are also separate what I mean by that is I do not think The progression with an individual cognition nation from intelligence to wisdom is separate from the progression within distributed cognition From intelligence up to his. So what I've been trying to do And so you'll have to forgive me if this sounds exploratory. But that's where it's at right now. you know this. This is The the cognitive science of distributed cognition is there. It's new I'm exploring on reading it. I'm trying to get into it. I'm so I'm trying to get a handle on what what The cognitive mechanisms are then. What are the what are the mechanisms of the dynamical system that forms and not doing that? Theoretically I'm also doing it in participant observation join various adjoining circling practices at engaged in other collective intelligence practices. I'm doing this. Peter Lindbergh and reading extensively through the literature. So I'm doing both theoretically radically in participant observation. So I'm trying to get Well good problem formulation all of this so the way I am trained signed for the way I have formulated the problem when when I've been discussing with others there's a lot of enthusiasm for My partners and prime stock in Jordan Hall who with Zoom Chris Master Pietro. These people like doing them is just Just so centrally centrally important to the work. I'm doing I couldn't be doing it without them. Indispensable so the idea is that We need something like a Amanda Psycho Technology For telling us how to curate and coordinate The Ecology Allergy practices the college cycle technologies for individuals and groups And that's an idea that that's not my idea that's Jordan halls idea the my ideal it was too that there's some relationship between higher order wisdom and This Meta psycho technology. I'm working on a book. Chapter offer offer Meta Modern Anthology with Christopher Max Metro on all of this right now. Sorry this is going to be a long answer because this is a very important question so I asked for everybody's patience on this and so the way I formulated the problem is to look for the best Because this is how I I think we should always pursue the problem formulation. Look for the strongest analogy edgy. I can find within history for such a medicine technology and they conclusion. I've come to something that did this. That deeply coupled coupled together the individual cultivation of wisdom and the transformation of collective intelligence towards collective wisdom whereas the anxious extra practice of dialectic. Now the problem with the term dialectic is we most of us only here that with through Hegelian ears and we therefore we hear as Hegel presented it as I as a logical ultimately as a logical practice between propositions and that's not what Neil taunt WEAP- platonic and Neo Poh chronic dialect. It was So what you try. What I'm trying to I'm trying to do is get very clear on that project and the relationship between The project of self knowledge and winds of cultivation and the project of transforming dialogue into dialectic process called the logos I That's necessary to while I don't know if it's necessary but it's the best example that I could find for coming up with. How did the ancients the ancients do this because they they basically put in centuries and millennia into this project? And what's really odd for us is if you read through the source. Sourced dialectic is held up as the ultimate practice but we know very very liberal about it Because of this Hegelian overlay. What's what's happening is? There's a lot of research on this. Both historically around the socratic practice and how it developed and then there is a lot of cognitive science about distributed cognition industry of problem solving. And I'm trying to put those together and get some clear picture. And then if you'll forgive the self-referential pun on but it is intended. I wanted to put that into dialogue with all of these emerging practices around collect intelligence. So if I could take a I mean so. This is crude Sir David so Is a little bit tolerant What I want to basically do estate? You know I want to get a pedagogical program of cake. Something like empathy circling insight dialogue. which I just did the other night and then circling take people through the those pedagogical practices where they can get into this upbringing? Some the ideas around you know The by Peter Limburg's idea about the The anti debate take all of that. Get people trained in that with them into something like super circling. I said Stop Calls Circling two point. Oh and drop drop failures via indirect drop into it. What what you see in something like the platonic dialogue? Where what you've got right is that what's happening is it's not only a circling practice? That's that's generating distributed cognition dynamical system of distributed cognition a collective intelligence. That's being put in the service of a collective reflection selection on the deep topics such that people are are being guided through sort of multiple perspectives multiple arguments in a highly coordinated fashion and the whole system is reflecting on. Its off. Because you have to remember. It's not just an individual dialogue. It's a dialogue. Set into a college of Meta dialogues are also all talking to each other and that's exemplified in federal work so we have a great model there to give the guy and the idea is Now this is where it's going to have to be like empirical investigation as we're doing this. But that we can create something that will ratchet collective intelligence at least in to collect the rationality or at least perhaps possibly also into collective wisdom And so I I mean this is very much what you see being modeled through the ancient traditions and I think this is A good way. The only way I can think of myself. That doesn't mean it's the best or the ultimate I'm just saying where it is for me this is a good way of formulating the problem. Problem that you're asking and how to try. And a step-by-step both theoretically rich and an empirically diverse way. Try to answer that question. So that that's how I'm formulating it. That's I'm trying to answer it. I'm trying to be as philosophically and scientifically at as experienced responsible as I can both in the formulation and in the answer and I will present that basically in the next series what the problem from relation turns to look out sort of jelled cold and wet the results of both the philosophical reflection and the empirical investigation are So I can't tell you what that what the answer is going to be to come from that. So but what I can do is is telling you I'm committed to that problem formulation and to that. That project of scientific investigation theorizing to try and address it as deeply as I can very good You know the the thing that stands out there. I'm curious about your your thoughts about the comments about technologies specifically about some sense that the way in which we can use technology specifically a I correct advising patterns. I think it really sets a lot of people on the easily set on edge. It's like this is a dangerous way. We don't want to go down there and I agree this this whole idea. Specifically Is a high capable bullshit and capable of rattle -ality. Oh very much. So I mean I have a talk there on my channel Why why they? Creation of artificial general intelligence white requires the requires the cultivation of wisdom them on our part. Because we're making artificially intelligence and therefore accelerated intelligence. What we are? I argue. What most positive is going to happen? His as we make these systems more economists they ended. This is in fact what is happening. We're going to start using a lot of the folks that we find in our general intelligence eligible going to be highly recruited self organizing. It's going to have multiple machines that operate in multiple is going to be very in a lot of ways analogous to a lot of the functionality of the human right and that's already happening and it's happening to convict Russia which means I think. This is a possible implication to draw that as we make those those machines more and more intelligent we will find that they like us are falling. More and more prey but in an accelerated fashion ought to self deceptive self-destructive behavior and and that we should be very seriously talking about artificial rationality and artificial wisdom. Here's the problem. We have lots of models of general intelligence. We have asked. We don't have similar models in our culture of of of rationality and of course even more so of wisdom so so we have to pay a lot more attention to this now. I've been working on this project. I've been working with eager at Grossman and Nick Weck Straight and Justin Brienza Hardness Bond are dealt the Tronto wisdom pass forces. We tried to get all the scientists together. And we're going to release a paper on a consensus definition Benicia of wisdom and its cultivation. So I think we do need to. If we're going to be doing stuff that jordan-iraq talking but we need to varied surplus attention to not just making not just bringing artificial intelligence Trying to get articles for rationality perhaps some some aspects of artificial wisdom Into into that. Now here's the thing I would say to you David. I'm we have no choice in this matter. This technology is gonNA come eh going to interact with us and it's going to interact with our problems or you know we can't we can say that's horrifying and I don't dismiss that but it's not an option to say let's not do that that that's not GonNa Happen so I think If we get a better understand I understanding of rationally wisdom and get that Involved in in in in the project of artificial intelligence rationality wisdom. I think that's the best we can do with this inevitable progression. That's going to happen It's certainly will make these machines hopefully fully More sappy essentially morally responsible as entities And it will also mean that we might alleviate any potential suffering that they would have to undergo so that's also a concern Bringing it into this project the way Jordan was suggestion suggesting I think this is a new. We already have the machine. Learning that can do is sort of the pattern recognition And that's very valuable and I think part of what's also going to happen And this this over into the discussion of the religion that's not religion is one of the things that collective intelligence is going to hopefully collect rationality is going allow us to do is to emulate the learning and what I mean by that is right we will go through stages where we're compressing and we're taking all these perspectives and compressing Watson variant and then we also let it go out and vary to all the different participants we can emulate deep learning on collective intelligence in a powerful away. I think The deep learning that we can Participate in in collective intelligence I think that deep learning and the deep learning in the I will talk to each other very nicely. That's my hope I get the concern But avoidance is not an option and so I propose that we leaked these two projects together in an ordinary fashion. Because I think that's the best way of constraining straining at all around towards the best possible outcomes. That's my answer for that. I'll thank you. Heather had a question hyneman similar rain. You WanNa hear assured the one about. Yeah so I was wondering the one about participatory knowing. Yeah so Yeah I'm curious about If we have a sort of an idea or a theory about what is actually happening in the sense that when the shaman becomes the deer if you kill the deer the Shaman doesn't die. He's not physically the deer doing more than imagining. He's the dear. He's somehow somehow identifying as the deer and I'm curious about if we understand how that works. We I mean we do and we you don't hear scientists always GonNa say that that's that's kind of. That's kind of the dodger answer right what I mean by that. Is this notion of participatory knowing. It's fairly new at and not to be self promotional one of the people. That's really trying to articulate it and develop a not because I don't think other people have talked about it but they've largely Ashley left at a very implicit. Although I think as the last four episodes of the series I talk about people that I think are for showers especially heidegger Eddie grow. So let's do the Shamanov. Let's do the participatory knowing Let's let's try and use something analogous so let's think about how you know your body is this is ultimately about a embodiment and how you identify with your body now you're not logistically identical with your body But your but your identity is also not separable from how you identify with your body what I mean by that is you. Can you get like an artificial heart. You might lose your left arm and those are tragedies. I'm not trying to dismiss that but you wouldn't say well that's it. I don't exist anymore right. Your identity wraps it because your identity is inherently developmental. So what. I'm trying to get you to see if there's this interesting way in which you identify with your body and that's bound doc with how you know your body so there are people that have various syndromes like hard syndrome where they feel like they're it's not their own it's not their body They could move their body. They control their body. But they don't identify with their body so they lose that artillery relationship. Now let's let's pay attention to something and this is something that comes out in Godesberg embodying world the way you. If you'll allow me this verb you inhabit your body your habits of your body the way you know your body body by identifying with it right in this non logical way but nevertheless deeply profound way has a deep impact on on false on how you structure So let me give you one of toads examples. I hope it's it's you'll be okay because it's it's a philosophical example but it's very very clear so when you read Hume's epistemology David Hume hume takes up the role and a role is a way of assuming and identity and knowing something something by identifying with it in a certain wall so he takes up the role of the passive spectator in his epistemology. Like a person who is sitting absolutely still a merely early looking out at the world so if you read as epistemology participatory knowing that's behind the argumentation is one somebody who's inhabiting putting their body as a still spectator not moving around. And when when you do that if I if I were to do that to you and you couldn't move your body and move around in the environment they could but how fragmented and static your experience because it's so right away hume's ontological. The structure that he sees in the world is going to be fragmented which is why he can't write everything breaks down for humidity's fragmented events that have no connection to each other. There's no continuity there's no continuum is famously. Can't find the causal connection in reality now. I'm not trying to argue. Here about Hume's oncology. I'm trying trying to make a psychological point about the way you inhabit your body the way you identify with it as the particular self structuring. You're doing automatically automatically constrained and limits the ontological what you know of your world and how you can know your world. That's participatory knowing that the way in which you identify with yourself and know yourself. And it's deeply embodied way and how that limits the grammar summer of possibility for your on Polish so when the Shaman is knowing the deer I take it that it's not just the not only is he or she transforming respectable. Oh respectable knowing so she salience landscaping knows. What is the state of mind of deer? who had like you know what it's like to be drunk or you know what it's like to be sober? They sort of know what it's like to be deer right. I think it's also that they are having their body. In a certain way they write at habit this ender. Structuring the the oncology. That's available to them. So the world is disclosing itself in a way that constrains strains that the perspective will know it so yeah when they kill the deer they don't die but they they don't if you if you notice Sean. Examining the killing wing of the year brings with it a degree of psychological trauma that has to be properly raff with ritual. You don't just killed your utility during Ashton's right you have to pay. Hey respect and reverence for safety because right you're knowing of yourself and your knowing of the deer were bound together in the way of just strike particularly was was that helpful food. Yeah and it's It's helpful because I have my own idea of how it might work. And that's completely different France from it so I'll have a lot to think about so thank you okay. The key thing of Oh participatory knowing is the knowing of yourself which is when you know yourself. It's not just knowing to know yourself is to become a particular kind of self it is it is to functionally. He's structurally functionally assume a role right. So the knowing of yourself and the knowing of what the self is in relationship are inherently bounded up other coupled together gathered mutually informing and transform each other. And I'm trying to show you how this is the idea but like Marco Ponti and Heidegger and Herbert Dreyfuss and toads. Is that this is. This is the Primor Joe Level of knowing that makes all the other kinds of also. Because if you don't have that attune admit you're GonNa have you faced faced with what you see in Ube you the fragmentation the disconnection can't very much can I can i. I WanNa take a specific acidic example. That's kind of interesting. I was talking to somebody earlier today. Actually Alexander this morning And in one of the things with participatory knowing that really kind of came out to me I haven't had an experience as a child writing by two people at the same time but people have having the hands on the steering wheel and noticing that when we would go to turn there was there was a dissonance in a vibration. Like oh wait. We're fighting US and as as a kid. I was wondering we know. Now interpretation of propositions we know where. We're going participatory. We don't part of it you know and perspectively. We can see something to but it wasn't until I was an adult that could see. The perspective of confusion was around around the center of gravity. It has something like that. I don't actually think about it. It's a habit and toads makes great use of that he makes use of the fact for example that The the the because of the way your body is structured. You have a forward backward orientation. It's so big. Because of how you inhabit your body your perspective will knowing has this particular structure to it and also the up down down because of gravity and we. So they're the participatory knowing studying. All of these constraints vary very implicitly but also very very powerfully on how our perspective knowing needs to configure needs to configure it and then with the because if the perspective of knowing is out of saying in your example with the Participatory Reynard. What does perspective will knowing if you? It gives you the situational awareness so you can learn and apply your skill so the perspective will knowing Iraq your procedural knowing will start to misfire and then you proposition knowing is basically what the hell what the hell without trying so hard removed like what's going on But yeah so I think did that make sense of your. You are examples. That's how I I would analyze it. I was just saying the other part of it is noticing again back to the collective bottle the Wyatt can become Jordan. Paul talks about ruler mega ability to give somebody else the leeway to have their argument but in some way it really contrasts with our own internal at deep knowing structures. You know so we have some and that kind of distance. I mean it's a metaphorical it's an. It's not exactly participatory in the same way and yet there's something that makes sense saying it gives me kind of empathy for the reason why people so adamantly defend specific ideal. Oh sure I think that's very well said David. I think that's why that's why you need to situate something like the argumentative aspect of electic into these practices in which are practices Practice in into which you get a coordinated participatory Tori no In fact a lot of what's going on in circling then this is not meant to be too specific. This is a hard at important thing right but a lot of them going on circling is getting. I think people into something like a collective flow so that they can have a shared nexus of participatory knowing. And then that that that that that affords awards a fluidity of respectable knowing so that you could very readily and what happens and this is the this is the interesting phenomenology And this is where it starts to lead over again if the topic of religion. It's our religion is you get like this third factor You get people start to end. I will report. Take get this sense of something above and beyond the individual people. That's their that's why call it the logos. That's the logos right there. There's some there you have to be you really careful here. And the ad people very secular people fall into very religious language which automatically when they start to describe this. We have to proceed very cautiously but also not dismissively because the reason why they're falling into this and it goes back to perhaps the older meaning of things like Teen Spirit right where that idea where you get this collective flow stage Ed's doing something very powerful and what I what I think it's doing so right and I've got a bit of an idea of you'll allow me to talk about this for part of what I think it's doing is it's creating this higher. Order shared participatory knowing an upgrade of rapid perspective. Hobble of fluidity. Here's what here's what did now. This is an hypothesis. Please take it as that that I'm exploring so when people are in this I've experienced asked me Other participants they get an experience I have to be careful what I'm disclosing or not disclosing gift. People report something that is similar to reports of when people are taking things like silent silent. So what you get is you get this super-stallions the person is glowing right. There's a sense of a doubt yes there and so what. I think that is a hypothesis but I think is going as the following so silent silent. We know what's happening areas of the brain that typically talk give each other are talking to each other a novel patterns it. What's trying to emerge is a new dynamical system out of that new communication? I think what's happening in things like circling you're getting novel patterns of Interpersonal Communication. And then they're getting internalized into the brain. It's something like novel patterns of Interest Repo Communication. Gatien that are then right right amp or them beating back to an amplifying. The novel patterns available in the and then you get this. Almost like an antibiotic August Cycle Happening in and I think that's very very important like as a way of prep intially. If if it's right lock linking the phenomenology of collective intelligence to the functionality. In some way and so I think what you see happening in there is is again the way your knowing yourself by how you're literally inhabiting your mind is being deeply coordinated by how this collective if things is coming to inhabit the space between you all. It's a D.. Kind of new participatory. Now are very excited about that because there's already some really terrifying a science around this I I've mentioned that a couple of the interviews. I have with people so they have just recently and this this is terrifying but to happen. Because there's all this conjecture basically said since hutchins walk on the wild cognition but the power of distributed cognition of research where they actually physically linked rat brains together and what are they able to show therefore too strict quantitative laboratory setting is that the collective formed Rains as computational power it can solve probably the individual rats can solve now that's really really terrifying But it's also good hard science that no no this is a real thing is a real. Oh thank you and you probably know that. They've done some preliminary stuff with some of the neuro chips with Human Beers. That's what I mean. This is coming. This is coming. And it's coming on as very rapidly rapidly. And that's why doing this as we have to do this as much as we can. And we have to do with is open that Cyborg is going to happen at collective Cyborg to not just individual side Oregon's very Maher Mar terrifying. Well that's that's definitely going to come and what's happening already The this is hard trying to turn artificial intelligence into artificial rationality is people are trying are starting to explorer distributed cognition amongst I robots to bring social cognition into and get it integrated with the individual cognition individual Watts And so they're already starting. They have some very interesting and powerful results about that so like I say this is. This is another reason why turning to the ancient model of dialectic to try and give us something something ought to know you know some some wet. Well vetted enroll reflected upon understanding Of a medicine technology we have something to bring into The dialogue with all this all these emerging practices and communities and technology. I think this actually relates to Alex's question about the Psycho technologies that are cornerstone for individuals and also collectives in the future. Alex so John Nice to meet you likewise the question that I posed There have been a lot of kickoffs For this question is like what what does end. Ecology of practices actresses look like for the individual to name what the practices are for the individual. And also for the connective intelligence collective percents making and then you know you know what those common cornerstones that makeup system of psychic technologies that make up the the fundamental building blocks and then obviously for the individual they a they tended an unspecific foyer example. Or how you nine and how you think. They're a little bit different for individuals but collectively what others and the stretches so the way. I would try the answer that Alex is for the individuals. I try to talk about types of practices as opposed to specific words Ed's though what what I do is I try to do this. Reverse engineering fashion. I try to say we need the if this these are the components of of of of intelligence. And this is how they need to be coordinated in rationality and how they need to be even further coordinated and wisdom. We could specify the at least practices in terms of what functions we need addressed. Does that make sense what I'm trying to do right so I think We definitely need practices. We need a practice that protects our influential processing from our tendon from the inside processing dressing in leaping into conclusions. And I think we need something analogous to active open-mindedness but there are many things that are analogous active open-mindedness cvt is analogous doctoral. Might I see a lot of what's happening in the story practices as a way of cultivating something deeply analogous to active open-mindedness in many of the exercise. So something that basically says okay. I need to. I need to protect my influential processing from for the part of me that wants to leap to conclusions collusion's and do all of that and so that's what active opened. maxine needs something like that but as I've tried to indicate there's a whole family of things that do that now now there they have family resemblance to each other but they're not identical and the end they bring with them different contexts. So active open-mindedness is very much. Something you sort of just can take up on your own one of the things. I do to cultivate it is I I every day. I read about a cognitive bias and then I had throughout the day I try to notice that and then I journal at the end of the day. That's a way of doing GEICO. But some people do they take a stoic practice and what the stoicism gives them Is it gives them a community and a history of people that they can read they can read markets are they can the F. Akitas right at stuff like that. Some people like it more cvt and what they can do is they. Can they can do that. In conjunction with a therapeutic practice. They're engaged so although these are similar. They're they're they're they're also have important differences that might be better suited to where the individuals act. So I think you need something like that. I think you also need something. Well I think it's a con. It's already a family practices. You need something from the mindfulness practice this because what you need is you need something that will shut off the influential machinery. So the insight machinery can be properly developed engaged And as you know I argue that I think you should always have both a meditative and contemplative mindfulness practice because that's what that's yet scaling down down on the scaling up Because that's what's going to best optimize. I think four mindfulness I think you do you need you. Need practices assist for your perspective learning And again this is a very very considerably people Leo and I will for our on. I talked about this. It says internalizing this age. You need to practice learning about and adopting the role and salience landscape of your particular escape yours particularly. We already do this in sports. Coaching you. You learn to take on The perspective of the coach until you internalize it and then you no longer need to coach you do it in Dojo you internalize censor until you don't or the Sif you're too you don't need Until you don't need that person anymore when you have your inner teacher feature so you I don't want to tell people whose sage or stages I would recommend multiple stages ages are. They should adopt I don't think you should just choose randomly I think you should deeply read and find somebody that has this sweet spot of you can sense identification with them but you can also said that they are capable of challenging you in a profound way So again that's going to vary widely amongst people. But I think it's a very important thing to do because this is this is primarily. It's going to train your flexibility perspective knowing. I think it's GonNa enhance your Meta cognition. It's going to get you out of EGOCENTRISM. I think he that also individually need to take up practices and this was much more tenuous because is this is something again. That's more towards the cutting edge of the work in the the the the series. You need to take practices of practicing. This implausibility is way but hand saying Your capacity for understanding I talked about this in I forget which episode I talk about. You need to practice seeing getting independent lines of thought and expand on experienced depending on what kind of knowing you're training getting getting them to converge to something and then see getting back to sing having them burying this is also a kind of deep learning So at the level of proposition theorising for example. I do that In this series. I tried to exemplify I try to show. How many convergent lines COM relevance realization position? And then how relevance realization can be applied to many topics but you also do something similar in the martial arts you learn all these different skills and then you try you learn sort sort of an orientation astaire's right that they all converge on that sort of multi apt for application. You have to cultivate A A lot of theoretical proposition all procedural and also respectable plausibility. Practice doing that so than you know. There's there's different practices again For doing that I see how people could could vary around that Then I I do think that what you need to do is at at the distributed cognition level. I do think you need a Meta cycle technology. And it's it's going to be. I'M GOING TO ARGUE I. I'm already crafting argue it has to be analogous to photonic neo platonic dialectic. It has to be something that integrates the set of practices like circling in a pedagogical program. Sort of you may be empathy circling the anti debate. Do insight dialoguing that you take that into sickly you get this you get this coordination love the third factor participatory in perspective annoying. And then you learn how to drop something something like Socratic the socratic incas discussion and debate with always respectful of in reverence to that so as always finally asked Afia never find the always the cultivation of wisdom never the pursuit of victory. And so you get people to so that they can and I need. Dissident deeply actress central sense they can identify with the functionality of the opponent processing with the end distributed competition as opposed to adversarial adversarial debating And so I think you need something like that in addition because this is all very head bang you need a good movement practice you need a movement practice that is because it's a movement practices not going to do much for the proposition although it will teach you a bit about what inner coaching feels like. You want something so for me. It's actually twad right in various cheek on you. The things that are really training in enhanced range of flexibility for your procedural but especially a perspective on your participatory. Now because you need a movement practice is to engage the Sara bellum frontal cortex loops because that's the best way to get the acceptation running now again. A lot of variation in the movement practices people are not saying everybody should do touch each one or or any of the things I do. I would recommend getting a a bunch of family of movement practices and get them talk to each other so so it's kind of a nested structure So I talk about types of that and I tried to tell you what I think the what what am ecology of practices looks like for the individual and then what the Meta cycle technology is that's going to bring in how we generate jury coordinate and that individuals technology's always sort of it. Is there a graph of their that that shows the entire ecology practices that you've been investigating talking talking about like something where people can visually look at this. That's a really good young. That's A. That's a really good idea I I think Chris and I might do something like that for the chapter writing. I'm not sure of but doing that. That is yeah but I I love to volunteer. Yeah yeah that'd be great and I'd be happy to work with you Mike on that so what I'll do right now is making a commitment to generating that with you if you want to work with me on. It's great very much. The brand new future thinkers members portal is now live develop your sovereignty and self knowledge with our index forces. Get access assist to our weekly since making calls join the QNA's with past podcast guests and much more. Become a future thinkers member today at future thinkers dot org slash members. Stay up to date with new episodes subscribe to future thinkers on your favorite platform and leave us a review or a like it really helps out the show and I forget to share this episode on social media. John was Started working in my own was sort of compiling sort of a tool. You both of what all the directives could potentially be an any framework that I'm familiar with. This is. Ken Will Bas a wake-up grab shop cleanup and placing the different practices into that structure. But I think finding almost imagine a little but like near waking up from the Matrix and then he's sitting there with morpheus like what programs do Donde and for this territory. Roy Writer occurs as you know we we need to have like certain skills enabled and with it we like some of us are going to go and propose new. These structures that have fee can work and be adopted an enlarged so we have to kind of get them going in Petrie dish. Where Eh we've got these little ecosystems running so that's what I tried to answer your question in detail because I think you're correct? I think that's a central thing Yeah very much getting that going. I would also recommend. This is also something that I'm finding useful bowl Recommend looking at existing religions because they are large Colleges practices that coordinate individual district cognition and they generally have some sort of Meta second technology. That's basically Dialectical in nature often for processing canal I just pissed off Jonathan Patio and Vanderkaay saying that But I do think the issue about making this headed Gotcha Glee and socially scalable is also something that needs to be constant kept in mind so looking to You know the Existing religions in diversity. By the way I think is also an aide a not are not recommending you any slavish attempt to copy but by paying very the attention Attention to things that did have good longevity and vitality to them that I think is also helpful. I mean you you can see that. Many of the religions are in fact inherently realistic in their origin. Like you get you get Zan by integrating Taoism With a form of Mahayana Buddhism right in China. And then you get that taken over into Japan where interacts with Chamonix Religion region Shinto or into with the schmuck bon religion and again becomes Rhianna into bat becomes then right in and and so you can see that in the history of Christianity. You've got you've got this This Jewish thing and then that's not meant to be suspicious. This Jewish tradition. That's better work. And then you see integrating with all these neil platonic practices and elements of stoicism. So you see that. The religions themselves are are doing kind of what I'm recommending in paying attention to their historical origins and their functional organizations. I think would also be helpful. I'm I'm curious I'd like to kind of extend a little bit. I'm imagining something. If you're familiar with John Jamie wheel and the flood genome project and kind of the work that they've done employees. It's a popularization of that area. All aspects of it and the idea of a flow Dojo. I'm also interested in kind of open. Sourced Risk Network of wisdom doges. That happens practices now. The thing that comes in the concern about that is a lot of people say. Be careful of the cafeteria style. Wisdom practices picking and so the but. It's necessary to some extent to be able to do that so again. This is the point where the the tendency for collectible ship is very important to watch to make sure that. We're actually matt a very careful way but I think it's so insular like you said it's it's it's necessary to go this direction just to be mindful of in transparent about how you're taking the rations. Totally Harry so I think that's thank you for bringing that up David So I mean I try to offer the idea of synoptic integration and a genuine pluralism as an alternative both to you. You know sort of an ECLECTIC relativism and some sort of monolithic modernism. Right a practice You know the example of the success of the midst martial arts defeating the traditional purist is something we should pay very good attention to go. No no you must stick with no no. The mixed martial. Artists kicked the ashes of the of the purest regularly and reliable okay. So let's pay attention to that. Stop pretending stop pretending right now. I think what I what I'm trying to argue is the way we get something like that. Is that we. We are always committed to the best scientific account of the functionality that is needed and that the choices we do not get choose the functionality the functionality that we're trying to address should be given to us by our best scientific accounts of individual industry big cognition. That's what I did with Alex. The this is what is the best account with the functionality. So although you have all kinds of choice in the variation you don't have choice about the functionality that needs to be present so that's as very strong on series set of constraints. It's very much argue about no we have to be there's a there's a universalism of the process. Even though there's GonNa be a lot of right Jerry is on a specific implementations and because a lot of these practices are not new. They've been around for thousands of years. We can actually look look at the society's at practice them to see what kinds of people they tend to produce. What kinds of society kinds of behavior and outcomes so there's actually a lot of data that we can look at yes very much so I think I think that's an extra point you be and what we can do is we could coordinate that with the science so that we can then and this is the neck? It's report of a higher order about the the notion of functionality that I mentioned the David we we we could note how various practices have complementary sets of strength and weaknesses like mindfulness and active open-mindedness right. And so that we can put them into a proper opponent processing so that we can get them to be as self corrective as possible in the functionality. They're and they're here. We and I'm not saying we can top down design this totally but we can make use of a lot more top down design than have happened in the historical Religions and that. That's why not take advantage of that possibility now. I'm very cognizant of an Jamie about this and a little bit of feedback on some some of his stuff because he's very concerned about what he calls. Ethical called the ethical cultivation and creating a code for ethical calls and and what he means by that is in addition to a commitment to The functionality of this higher order functionality that I mentioned the David I do think we need to very proactively. Have you know a a deep commitment to code of conduct That everybody asked You You know basically adhere to and that has to be non-negotiable because it's just too much history of spiritual teachers OP being deeply abusive to their adherence and Again let's stop pretending and let's stop pretending that enlightenment is is some kind of get out of Jail Free Card or claims to enlightenment for people's behavior. It's not it's immoral behavior and it's immoral behavior and it's immoral world behavior and we let's instead of pretending let's agree that we are part of what we're also not going to be putting into negotiation as a shared to conduct Jamie's working on that at getting him some feedback at again let's reversed designed this reverse engineer this from the history of of all this abuse youths and also the history me no of how people fall into self destructive self deceptive behaviour the best science and let's put in the best code of conduct. Is it going to be perfect. There are no algorithms for this but we can do is be really clearly proactive around the unwanted like a this is not just moral code of conduct this stomach code of conduct like everybody should be committed like to that what what is a value isn't your particular sacks but the shared sat. The shared commitment to opponent process shared commitment to the best science of the functionality of the machinery that were trying to educate and transform so there's also an epidemic code of conduct people would have to adhere to and. That's not something I want you right. I'm not I don't naught. It's not my job nor do I want that role. People keep casting the role of somebody WHO's trying to found a new religion which I find a horrifying proposal the prospect that is not what I'm trying to do. I look you guys and rebel wisdom. There's this immersion community. There's these immu emerging colleges. Oh Jesus practices. I'm talking to so many places where people like Rape Kelly right. They're they're putting together a college. He's a practice footing community. There's four e cognitive science telling us all about embodied embedded right enacted cognition. There's all these new practices for around our collective intelligence. It's like circling and this is all happening. I'm trying I'm not trying to found something. I'm trying to reflect and articulate on this so we can appropriate it in the wisest possible fashion. That's what we need to do it. We need to understand it so we can participate it and you know be guided by it but also guided united in an optimal way. We don't have tied. We don't have time to wait for the normal patterns of social evolution to work this out. I just don't have that you don't have that luxury John. I have a question for you. That's the guy. Hi Jessica Nice to be thank you so much for all the workday for it's been amazing thank can university classes at home or pre good good. That was one of the intent. One of the intent was I mean with a very delicate balance on my part I was trying to get to write something. That wasn't like academic in the sense that right you had to take aches within academia but nevertheless gave people the sense that they were participating in something like that that you know Joe so thank you for that feedback because I was very ah been continually concerned about that goal but whether or not I could hit that point I asked so awesome. Yeah so wanted to put a little bit of context to the the work that you're bringing forth like what prompted you to bring this whole series fourth and if you've had any mystical experiences in your life in how you've integrated down what the true. Yeah okay that's also a long answer so I'm just give you'll be if you'll be patient with me So part of it is hard it is to buy graphical of course that's normally where it starts so I You may have heard mentioned. I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian family and that sort of traumatized away Another Christianity and then coming out of that and and I think it's no coincidence that a lot of people are interested by series. Also have that similar kind of background because when you come out of that of course she rejecting a a lot but it also goes deeply into sort of the the way you inhabit your body the way you put your mind. That's how that the religion is directed to function and whether or not it functions properly. It still gets mashed with that so there was a personal project of first of all encountering a kind of existential void when I formally rejected all of the superstructure of the religion but all of that machinery was still running in me. If you WANNA if you WANNA put it does that sort of make sense. What I'm saying is so I'm looking for? I'm looking for to satisfy kind of eight hundred that I I. I also had formally disavowed And so that sent me on a personal quest and that coincided with knee encountering in university the figure of Socrates and Blah Sophy and then I saw I really I realized realized an alternative way of addressing that level of need that didn't commit me to that particular framework that I had rejected. And so I I gotTa to explore deeply then very quickly disappointed again because the topic of wisdom and self transcendence and transformation Once you've taken your Plato Gorse and maybe an aristotle course that's it. The topic disappears from academic philosophy. I at least ah when I when I was growing up and so I was deeply disappointed. I wanted I wanted. I wanted to continue down that pedagogy path. I wanted to know what it needs to cultivate wisdom so I then again. I took up an ecology practices I was living in bickering at the time. And it was a place called all the touch Meditation Center and they taught me a pass and Meta tie teach one and it slowly dawned on me what that ecology was doing for me and how powerful it it was and so I i. I drove into that very deeply. And of course I've continued that. That's not what a twenty eight years I've been practicing that and beyond and so that was deeply transforming warming me and then as I grew in that I finished my Undergrad so forth one in Grad school as I was doing that. The academic world shifted philosophers Veloce fers and psychologists started in the nineties the puck about wisdom and mindfulness and and a deeper notion of rationality other than just argumentative. So in a weird kind of lucky Cairo's for me the academic world and my world could now be join together and I started to see that many people were talking more. Broadly about something that is only sort of reflecting on within my own life life and you have to be really careful at that point narcissism can just grab your right so again was fortunate and then something took me out of urban narcissistic framing so my good friend. One of the premier figures in for a cognitive science. Thomas was to teach a course called Buddhism and cognitive dog new science and he could teach John Biegel persons teach that and so they recommended me. I took the course up. It was going to just do a survey of topics. Mindfulness and then unreal tobacco night because it had happened to me and I was seeing happening. Widest confluence. Why are people putting these things together? And why does it seem so natural. Children are appropriate to do so and then as I did that I started to make sense. I started to formulate this issue. Oh they're trying to bring the science and in ecology practices. This is together to address the meeting crisis. And and then when I started developing the site caught this course often multiple times a year sometimes three times a year right Out once or twice I think I did. I was developing this argument. In conjunction with my students and progressively with their help refining it and developing and seeing how it was really taking likely it was really thinking their teeth into and so that guided me to evolve the argument with their help over about. It's well to the twelve year periods and then that's where the place where I felt ready to present the argument to the world. That's talking about now as the aspect of it in my practices I have. I have had multiple and at times profound owned mystical experiences on even experiences that I would call awakening experiences. I'm not claiming to be enlightened because for me in order for somebody to be enlightened. They they have to have a reliable in systematic stater consciousness technician character so that they reliably systematically overcome the perennial problems. I don't think I can claim that in my life. Have those experiences inspired my aspiration and therefore afforded me to become if you'll allow me addictive wiser Yes they have been significant and contributory and one of the things that struck we in the project of the argument for the meeting. Crisis is precisely. How can we articulate these experiences so that they fit within and are legitimated intimated by a scientific worldview rather than being dismissed or hidden because people feel they need to dismiss or hide them because they feel they don't fit into the scientific worldview? I can we do that in a way that not only legitimates them but allows them to you know inspire people aspire to wisdom. How do we how can they? How how can they incorporate into their developmental trajectory these anomalous experiences to use a scientifically neutral term? Such that those experiences can reveal their functional potential of forty people deep self transcendence. Yes so what were some of your tools of integration. So cognitive science helped a lot helped a lot because not only in its content in terms of you know a an explanation. A non dismissive explanation of the phenomenology and the functionality of many states tried to articulate and in this series but also the practice of cutting science itself the practice of synoptic the integrated between radically different vocabularies adversaries on policies methodologies. Is You know the neuroscientist and the computer scientists and the psychologist linguists and the anthropologists there they they use different language different methods and gather different evidence and what you're doing a cognitive scientists. You practicing getting them. You're not trying to create the one discipline that will make them although away or found. And if that's not what you're doing you're not trying to replace them you're trying to afford a synoptic. Integration a avaiable viable bridging structure between them so that they can transformative Lii and reliably talk to each other so that we avoid eclecticism and instead of word something like a d a d district cognition between the disciplines so the practice of cognitive science and somatic integration also helped a lot. Because you you you you practice moving between different languages. Different discourses are different ways in which you pay attention to your empirical evidence even even how you constitute and label your evidence and so that's valuable when you're trying to move between right. The language of the oncology that people people generate often spontaneously around these experiences and the language on the analogy of you know of the scientific worldview the scientific picture of the nature of the mind I like using the metaphor of the API like we're looking for that application program programming interface yuckiness. Yeah yeah it doesn't. It doesn't mean that we change our own programming but we at least have a common language and can output and input data. So what what you want is if you want to afford the possibility of deep compression where the various disciplines could converge on something but then the but also deep variation they can bend glowed in very insight into their own particular oncology's their own particular methodologies and feedback in and feedback out feedback and feedback. That's again the analogy. I'm trying to get for what we need distributed cognition to do it and this is also actually really useful to you not just across different disciplines Like you know how does anthropology talk about this particular Mr History talk about hottest computer. Science talk about it at a psychology. Talk about it but also within the difference spiritual disciplines. I find that the practices or the experiences that that have consistency across different spiritual disciplines around the world tend tend to be the most stable in the most useful. So so I I agree. I think we can rely. I mean we can rely. I don't think I like not an unquestioning fashion him but we can. We can regard as possible. That's all he can regard as plausible a lot of these A lot of these practices. That show cross cultural convergence. It's I think that's a very very very good point. I think that that is definitely something. We should pay attention to. Now I would point out that many of these things cannot be understood stood in a purely papas fashion. So this this this is this is this is a this is a deeper thing requires a deep commitment. You need to really really. I mean you you need to really practice some Taoist practices if you WANNA Understan- with ours perspective and Saburo Practices Christian practices and STOIC practices decision and So you need to do that and this is again where you don't WanNa be a dilettante. You WanNa be a depot Tay And that's a different thing because you want to try again you don't go in slavishly remember my point about the mix martial arts but you go in with deep respect saying okay. I'm going to pursue this deeply. I'M GONNA SOAK DOC percent right and I'm going to put it into dialogue. Here's the dialectic again. With these other and see if I can watch the deep learning. What's the deep convergence that comes out of that? You GotTa put put deep devotion into your deep learning to get the practices out of it so this is a long process. I mean it's a long education. But that's what all the traditions say. By the way you know. So Plato said you know you. Shouldn't you should be basically school until you're thirty before you can even start talking in the dialect and things like that So for example one of the things. I'm trying to more responsible and I'm going to take this up probably next week. Is I think Plato had on the academy. You can't come in to the academy unless you could do geometry and that always sort of whatever but then and I thought wait a SEC. You see a lot of these thinkers showing a deep connection between training in geometry and the ability to practice. Dialectic of many of their metaphors are geometrical. Geometrical metaphors pulled China's uses the time. And then I realized hey especially when you understand. All of their math is geometry. There's no Algebra. There are no equation. Asian everything is done geometrically right and it's done constructively you participate lead you right so what I wanna do is work through. Euclid actually worked through the constructions do the sacred geometry. Because I think that kind of geometrical practice is a bridge between perspective and proposition knowing because what geometry does is it takes a lot of your perspective will machinery and deeply integrated with a proposition argumentation. And there's all sorts of because you're actually involved in the construction. The embodied act of constructing the figures is actually integral to the argumentation. Going to try and work my way through Euclid I in that fashion So guy sent stock might do that with me. So that's what I need about. You know you like you have to. You have to dive very deeply into these practices. Is I want to understand the NEO platonic. I understanding of dialectic. I've got I gotTa have that gotTa have that internalized or I'm just going to be reading their words and translating into stuff that Ah transformative for me. I'm not going to help anybody. There's also another point to it where by having the foundation of all these different perspectives and trainings The integration of whatever insight comes is much deeper and much more are persistent over time so just a couple of days ago when we did the watch party of your episode eleven We talked about whether a you no an awakening. As a result of skin of a spontaneous event without any prior practice is even useful at all are worth talking about and my point was that it's not because because it can't be integrated in deep and persistent fashion because the person doesn't have a foundation of where to link until the different things in their life. I agree I think that's right now what we have to do so first of all deep agreement with what you're saying and you see that very clearly. I mean you see for example Sahara going with multiple teachers in the six years deep again deep devotion to set a practices. And and yeah. I think that deeply afford it. The the deep insight that comes with Houston Enlightenment's experience So first of all deep agreement we do have to I I WANNA talk about. I WANNA be careful here people because I know this from the research people will have these experiences and They do you tend to overvalue them in kind of this psycho dynamic sense With good reason because often they've got a sense of the really real and and they're called towards that in some powerful. What we need to do is we need to create a way in which those people feel the invited to take that into the college of practices? So that if they have another one of those experiences it is taken right. So what I'm trying to say is get get them to re frame it as an invitation to a deep learning rather than as a final state that they're going to cherish rush and hold onto. I can't remember who who quote the Might just be kind of you know nameless ZAN quote but it's it's a real work of meditation begins after awakening. I really love that. Yeah Yeah and you also get the you know before four. I did send rivers rivers mountains just mountains while I was doing. Zen Rivers worked rivers and mountain works out and then after I was done notice he says that was done. To examine rivers were rivers and mountains or mount and so yeah very very much. There's that I that's why I'm trying to do. It's one motive. There are other motives other reasons but one of the reasons why I'm trying to you alter the sense of sacredness off of perfection completion finality right and back onto that notion from the Christian mystics of EPA cases of ongoing perpetual self transcendence And that the secret criticize the inexhaustible Coordi- of ongoing software incentives reconfigure sacredness and. That was precisely what you just said so that people always see this right as a process that should always be tied to ongoing learning. There was a question the Chad and actually this relates to a question that I also have About Shadow work whether in the union sense or more in the more modern sense from the integral model. You didn't mention that very much in the college. You have practices you put into it so it depends what you mean mean by that So they're they're the the the problem. I let me go very careful here. The promises we use a single term for something that again again we have multiple disciplines with multiple colors we have this term the unconscious And the second the way their psycho dynamic world talks about this is very different from how a AH cognitive psychology talks about it and coordinating. That is something that nobody's doing very well. As far as I can NC I touched I tried to touch upon it a little bit. Where did I try to do was provided bridging point in the notion of self deception? At because I thought that it was integral to a lot of the machinery of the psycho dynamic approach but nevertheless you can see it talked about very deeply in presupposed within a lot of our cognitive psychology so I tried to get a bridging point there. I'm not claiming that sufficient but I'm trying to explain. I tried to be responsible to that concern. I do. I mean I do. I Journal my dreams I put myself through unions therapy psychotherapy understand. I devoted myself to it. Went through at practice attended workshops went into therapy long term therapy. Happy did the dreamworks. I I met And I see I see value in it I feel a video soon with my good friend Anderson. Todd he he well. I taught him cognitive science but he was also he's also went through he's now practicing psychotherapists. JAGNA NYA WE'RE GONNA do a dialogue required about that to give more space in time to this he's also gonNA contrast His interpretation Dacian of young with Jordan Peterson's so critique in that sense right credit interactive dialogue. So I do I I am trying to he. Something that's responsible to that Why I'm reticent is although I've done all of that so I don't feel that I just a naive participants I I don't feel I have the requisite Expertise I do think so. Now if people will accept the caveat that now I'm speaking personally personally and I don't have the scientific evidence to claim to claim that this has the kind of functionality that I've claimed for some of the other practices that I recommended nevertheless within my personal experience keeping a dream journal and interacting with dreams and trying to sort of increasing lucidity Has Has has been beneficial to me. And so I have to bring a young and A framework to bear on that that has been beneficial to me I don't know what to say beyond that other than I'm going to give somebody who I trust has both the cognitive science and The Union psychotherapeutic background. An opportunity to talk about this and I will participate in an effort that I think that's the best best way that I would feel comfortable with Responding to that concern. I wonder if there's if it would be helpful to talk about the overlap between what we know of shadow work in union sense in stoicism which was basically like exposure. I would think I mean I like. I said it's a far as there are ways in which you are trying to extricate and then ameliorate through a systematic and reliable response mechanisms of self deception. I think there is serious. Overlap and I've already said that and that's where I feel comfortable sort of you it stating things I'm making claims The problem and so I wanna try very carefully ear. I've already indicated eight of my personal respect and my involvement. I was my first philosopher in yum. Was My psychologist. And they're like your first lovers right there templates for everything and so I have a reverential attitude. I don't criticize Plato. It doesn't mean I don't criticize the issue I have is one of the things I like about young. It's I like how right I liked. Liked the dynamical the idea of the psyche as dynamical system that self organizing and capable of complex affiliation. There's many things I find deeply concept. I just don't quite know what to do with some of the major union claims A scientist. I don't like I don't know what right so Jordan. Peterson makes a lot about architects protects. People talk about archetypes and sort of understand what that might mean. But I don't know how. How would you go about like what would what would make that acclaimed potentially false like the hero in people? But you know it's so general and and and malleable it. Well Luke is the hierarchy is gone. Although he's the roach well how do you know like how you do that. And so please in a repeat one more time. I'm not being dismissive here. I told you the respect. I I told you how I've committed. We're going to film this on the twentieth. It's going to be presented. I am responsible responsible to this just trying to share with you. I'm more hesitant about some of this language and what what to do about it So I to be fair to me. I see such variation amongst unions. Some people take with the archetypes as a deeper metaphysical truth other people take them as pragmatic tools that are sort of useful and helpful. But you're not deeply committed to their psychological optical reality I see all that variation and so. That's why I'm hesitant. I'M NOT TRYING TO I. I tried to explain to you my real commitment my real responsibility but also trying to explain to you. What my reticence and my education you know what I would love to see is That research that they did in New York where they put long term practicing Buddhist monks who've had an awakening experience into an MRI scanner and got them to enter the non dual awareness state. And then actually looked at the physiological markers of what that looks like so likewise there are practices for entering these kind of archetypal states that that some people practice. I'd love to see the same research being done with. That would be great if you've got somebody sorta into deep active imagination. And they were. We're having a sort of a confrontation with something that was numerous or them and what that looks like. I agree I would feel more comfortable talking about that stuff if that research was in place precisely because that research is a place for Buddhism and for things like active override. This and I feel much more comfortable talking about it because I could see grounded and things. It's undeniably universal. which is you know our physiology our brain functioning? That's where that's why again. There's much confidence like I said I. I don't want to recommend things for which I've tried to keep to a rule will where I don't speak deeply about things where I do not feel. I have the requisite expertise to many people are doing that today. Too frequently in too many ways. And that's again one of the ways in which collective intelligence can fall credible shitting When you get a lot of And punditry as opposed to Cheerful expertise the brand new future thinkers members for Dole is now live develop your sovereignty and self knowledge with our in depth courses get access to our weekly since making calls joined the QNA's with past podcast guests and much more become a future member today at future thinkers dot org slash members members to stay up to date with episodes subscribe to feature thinkers on your favorite platform and leave us a review or like. It really helps out the show and forget to the shares episode on Social Media. Guys we are coming up about an hour and a half already. We only had John for an hour. So maybe we can take one more one or two more questions here. Actually actually I don't. I won't trust your time. If you need to end I understand why slot it two hours for this the half Oh okay great then we can no I. I started eleven to one for this precisely because I mean I'm talking a lot. I asked for the forgiveness of fellow participants but I do want to make myself as available as possible to the people who have common. I WanNa ask you questions My I like my time. Is You know very challenged so I wanna give you guys a concentrated concentrated chunk of it right now cool. Thank you David. Of course inside out questions were we wouldn't be having conversations brought up. That movie Pat John You may you may have seen the emission. The movie inside out the Pixar movie looking at the medicine. The brain has been eh for in terms of framing. The questions and understanding. One of the things One of the key parts that I think makes a lot of sense to me. it that's kind of interesting is in the moment if you remember the movie. Have you seen it personality. I'm not claiming to remember it that clearly. I I definitely seen it at definitely. Yeah and I also I enjoyed it lately. There's something there's there's a couple of key points one of them that's really interesting. Is Noticing win win. A joy and sadness are victims from the control center and deep memory and long term memory and anger sadness anger Disgust and fear are running the show. Mix a lot of what the personality for teenagers but they try to figure out what makes us make sense of the world world with that limited perspective and at the point that anger finally has enough. He's like that's it. I'm taking control or stealing. Mom's credit hard. We're hopping on the bus. We're going back to Wisconsin. The last place was known to be good to us. And there's a something in that makes sense from that perspective widely widely while we might want to go back something and so it makes sense. I'm why I'M GONNA I'm GonNa say it makes sense. Why make America great again is a the female makes a lot of people and so there's a compassion for understanding bat? The desire to go back there and there's also it takes a deep understanding step back and say wait. Wait a minute that place you want to go back to doesn't exist anymore. There's nobody there. There's something similar with I would say and I say hey this respectfully trying to bring more compassion to this whole thing but there's something in which it seems to me and this is an oversimplification. So pardon me but but Jordan Peterson is doing something and also John Competitor. I think to some extent is makes religion. Great again in this other something. Very careful about the notion of yes. These traditions are wonderful and the place. We were developmentally when these came them into practice in the real world complexity of the world that we're dealing with now is no longer sufficiently complex that our worldview so the WHO pointed out is the necessity of the collapse of the islands of personality to grow a new sense of who we are and in some we we have to have a collapse of at least our ideological relationship to our institutions on from a from an authority as being a participatory Top down bottom up at the and it's a very powerful the same kinds of things where our emotion state charges they know. That's over writing. The participatory layer is the last thing we want to do. We don't WanNa do that unless it's the only choice. We have left because evolution early. We know. That's that's how we're you're messing with our survival. You must decode so again because a lot of sense of why we have such a challenge and I'm curious if you have additional thoughts about yeah go ahead. Sorry interrupted Glen. Just just about how we approach that. Respectfully I mean this is like a deeper in conjunction for what Jordan says really. Maybe we really need to understand how. How talented Kalisz and respect that Mrs Hardy Species I've ever done I prison? I'll comment David. I was just really beautifully. Articulated really really really beautifully articulated. So I want to go through this again carefully. I can bring my A.. Game Dolly questions. You guys are asking the I hope. I hope you feel that that's happening. First of all and this is why I'm very suspect I'm suspicious of both the nostalgia and the Utopia because they sort of make use of the same machinery in different waist. So the idea that You know the predictive processing model which I don't think he's completely comprehensive but it's a powerful model at at leads to this conclusion. There's two things that can really become super salient and Therefore come with a risk bullshit for our brain winding is familiarity. And I'll say this and I'm very comment about this. The brain prefers Sad or unpleasant familiarity over unexpected acted Prefer prefer side familiarity dysfunctional familiarity over. You know uneducated completely novel happiness on as we we have we we seek out. You see this A your give you many of you may have experienced Francis in your your relationship pads. You'll you'll go back to a familiar pattern. This is why attachment theory is so predictive of people's romantic relationships. Not because because they're not because of what they had with. Their parents was particularly functional or good it might have been dramatizing but nevertheless it's familiar. So that's what they look for in their relationship even though knowing at a proposition level. That's a disaster. Because what I had with my parents was it but they repeat it so this was a one thing is the intoxicating talks equating lure a familiarity which is often because we are predicted machines and with by go with what's familiar than I can make predictions right and so that is something we have the deeply be on guard but we also have the opposite which is right. We can be addicted to be the predictions How does that seem to totally nail down the future? That's the Utopia ripe it. It's it's it's inevitable the you know you get these utopic envision. This is if we just do this. Then it's inevitable that we'll get there when of course historically all the pursuits of Utopia have have been really. Okay does Astra's No different people to Alexander Bargain agree about utopias. I'll put that aside for now. He and are GonNa talk more about that so I think that is something first of all. Psychologically that steepening what you drew from inside out but I'm pointing in both directions action. We're we're tempted by both the style of Utopia and we have to be and we're tempted for similar reasons. Even those those seem so diametrically opposed. This is so progressive. Assert that so conservative. But they're both trying to do the same thing and they're both. They're both very dangerous in that way now. Making religion great again. Yeah that's So is is there some nostalgia and familiarity driving what all Jonathan are. I'm doing I think that's something that we should definitely consider as plausible I wouldn't WANNA reduce what they're doing that though I I just had a wonderful conversation with Jonathan. I've had several at to Jonathan a several with Paul. We're GONNA be together and I feel that well I've said this before. Even though we disagree on propositions I trust them because they come into these discussions in good faith and I mean that I mean that with multiple meanings of good faith they they come in And so I feel one of the things that's encouraged me a wade. You beat comments where I have discussions people who are clearly coming for example from from quite a variety of background sometimes Christian non-christian. They say that they feel that. The overall project is making progress that the distributed cognition is moving forward. And so as long as I'm getting that sense from my own sense and getting what objective or at least interest objective feedback that's happening. I think it's going well all right. And here's what I WANNA. I WANNA say more specifically I I have I just did it with you. I will challenge this dowager. I will challenge Utopia because I think it is such a place where we are so tempted for bullshitting are because of the the the brain just loves you know. It is predictions I nevertheless want to be careful about what I feel. I can claim it what I can't Clinton. I don't have an argument that forecloses on the possibility that Christianity might resurrect itself. The Way Paul and Jonathan Say I don't have of an argument that forecloses on that say no. No here it is. Here's my seven premises. That have the conclusion that Christianity is can't change itself because because man has Christianity like the other world religions reinvented itself in fundamental ways before yes it has and so for closing using like some of the way the new atheist do on this I think is there is no legitimate argument for that so I don't I wanna I wanNA always try to to make sure that I have not presenting a foreclosure position I think that Jordan Hall is correct that the Meta crisis to use Thomas Thomas Bjorkman's term the Meta crisis is complex defying at an increasing at an accelerating rate and what that means what that means is the differences of degree of their enough become differences inclined nine and I think what we're seeing is. We're seeing a very significant difference in kind in the type of problem that we need to solve. And for that reason I strongly wrongly suspect I do not foreclose but I strongly suspect that the established religions do not have the machinery to make themselves viable for most people in a way. That's going to be needed to address the Meta crisis. So that's what I take. The deduct answer you David. Yeah I did and I'm an WanNa really appreciate that That that nuance there of We just don't want to. I also want to appreciate that. It's not to disparage that. It really is to encourage us to be more open to the deep discussion and I loved that. We're moving forward. Even though we may disagree and in our bones in a way that feels like you know I don't want to give up the nostalgia or that Utopia and yet I really wanna find the place where we can work together so I appreciate it that new. What's what's very much like your your response to that figure but I would add one more element of nuance to it? which is the following? I do believe And and I I've talked to people That it's possible for people to return to the traditional religions perhaps with some degree of education from all of this but anyways to return to them at least some rejuvenated reformulated versions of them and find again outta cultivate meaning and wisdom and self transcendence that is happening. And I don't know if people can return to Christianity in a in a revitalised vitalized way revalorised way. It really works for them to help them. Significantly addressed the meeting crisis than great great. Like and I don't want to dismiss that and I I don't WanNa pay that with the brush of that somehow inauthentic I I think that's a mistake as well. I think it gets this now. I mean I think those people have a responsibility to follow the example given by Paul and Jonathan of entering into deep. Good faith dialogue with people who do not find those traditions viable for them anymore. So I'm not saying that people might not be able to return I think returning and then proclaiming to everybody. Oh you should just return I don't think that's a responsible to hi. I'm Hella question. I'm about to ten or eleven episodes into the serious Addressing this in later episodes but my question concerns in this ecology of practices and in calculating ginks meaning in wisdom was the role of humor. Genre here is sleep and also another. It connects another a question that you pretty much answered during this During this hour at the house In your research or travels a Do have some like really particular incensing this cultural culturally specific when stations of the meaning crisis Mrs Address Cultural Culture. A culture in Humor Dumi are like super connected. Life Sewer Ultra so. I wonder if that can be humor is is it regarded. This one is regarded as a practice. It can be a practice or like on the very meadowland. can can communicate with the whole geographical tactical structure. Yeah I don't know if I would call humor practice because I think it's It goes more into because chimps are capable of humor which leads me to believe that? It's not so much. An acquired skill that we have to refine it especially when we want narrative forms of humor and we have to learn narrative white extensively. Ah So I am not sure but your question is deeply intriguing to me. Because I'm interested I and I don't know yet so that's why haven't spoken about. Ibm I indicated examples of this degree to which like role playing an Improv. Might be cycle technologies that might be needed in ecology of practices. Because I'm aware of the fact like I mentioned the series. The jeep forming. That's arisen in the Scandinavian in countries. And it's clearly a response to secularization and the meeting crisis within the Scandinavian countries. I don't have a jeep forming. It's do you remember when a jeep for me. You know what you know what role playing yes engine and then you have live action role playing where you actually acted out. And then what you have in jeep forming is you take it up another notch you you dungeon masters basically director. They'll come in the setup a scene an interpersonal scene and they will sometimes cut the scene of sometimes. Get you to switch roles. Will they'll hand you an object can tell you to use it as a prophet. So you're acting now what you're trying to get is you're trying to get the phenomenon called bleed. So you're trying to do is you're trying to get this place in which your pretending and this is what I mean by serious play when I talk about serious play predict where the pretense of the role playing and what's actually actually happening in your real life the line between them blurs they bleed into each other so you can no longer tell if you're just playacting or actually activated a lot of of the processes that are effectively a real so they see this bleed state because it gives them a place in which they could play seriously play in this ritual. How distributed cognition context in improvisisation setting? They can play with new identities new perspectives and thereby afford a process is of self transcendence. Now I see that although that's taking place clearly in a very secular situation that's very much deeply analogous to a lot of religious behavior. It's it's is religious in a lot of ways the way you go you go into a separate space are non space non time like when you go into church you take on these identities you get it shifted around. There's a master of ceremonies that redirects things. It's supposed to allow you to play with different Identities different perspectives different patterns of interaction. It's affordable nauseous of Trent transformative participatory knowing and and I've talked to people had some students who wrote essays for me on this. Find a similar similar thing happening with Improv And so and humor plays a vital role in these kinds of technologies Because humor is often away in wit and so this is where I think it's important because when I talk about when you get laid on the sears. I talked about absurdity. Absurdity is when you have a perspective clash that you can't resolve humorous when you have a perspective of clash and you can resolve it with the kind of insight when you can resolve by gauging aging and kind of serious play. So they're those places that I just mentioned like deep form there so pregnant with a possibility for humor because people are seriously playing between bridge between we Perspectives and one of the things that does is what one of the if you if you can bring sort of humor. In few those practices it could help. Ameliorate eight the threat of absurdity seventy intruding on them. So I do think I do think we I knew more we were to be done so let me try new very cautious for. I suspect that those kinds of sex cycle technologies should be incorporated it into an ecology of practice because they act as significant bridging cycle technologies between individual practice and collective the practices of collective intelligence and they allow people that little place where they can play with Alternative things that they could play with they could bring humor and play lay serious play to bear on the experience of sort of absurdity so that they learn to address it more profound but did that. Answer your question. Yeah Yeah. It's not only that the dancers question did also makes me understand my question. Why this like I actually? I'm from theater backgrounds. So you go. There go wasn't the starting point from which I just wonder the humor but now I understand question yes and also go is that the other is the practices like fall under this of I'm doing Daniel. I'm Greg Right now. And he wants to sort of create The meaning temple. He calls it where Theater and arts both enacted and static are are being used to vet to create a place in which serious play is being pursued and various forms of serious Chris. Play are being put into you. Know a kind of type of dialogue with each other so that people can seriously play in in that space in the temple right. It's analogous to the sacred place because think about going to church again. There's all this stuff happening. There's drama and theater and there's is all this stuff happening again not in any kind of irreverence or a derogatory fashion but something analogous to that if he that's what he's is trying to work towards building and I'm working with him on that but he's he's undertaking not As something that he's GonNa vote a lot of his time and talent or it's a doing exactly that kind of thing where people can explore What it would be like to have a place for sacred play progressive amazing moments? That you guys. Can I just ask a question. I am I steaming. Okay to all of you The manures Domi- gear is acting acting up a little bit but still coming across is sort of sane and stable from an audio perspective active. You sound fine. Okay just to let you know That's what's happening getting a again Generally find better just to explain to people if that's happening so that they don't misinterpret and this attribute affectively that I'm not undergoing I should think about the risk. What do you think are the biggest risks to the meaning crisis right now? Currently they could. Could I ask you to be a little bit clear. There's two things you being. The the risk people are suffering from the meeting crisis or the risks. That doc Might come to us as we try to address the meeting Chris. So there's there's risks the risks in the sense that people are suffering more and more and then there's also risks that might accrue to as we attempt to address it. So which one of those did you neither do. I guess they kind of tying together a little bit but yet he the author so I think what's happening And so I started a letter wicky with David Chapman about this. Because I'm concerned that the mythology might be shifting and that might portend something so as argued with Christopher masterpiece MISCEVIC in the book. I think the primary mythology that the culture has used excessive meeting crisis is the SAMBA. And and then there's GonNa be apocalypse and for all kinds of reasons in you could. There's a video on that and there's the book so I won't go into that in detail. What I what I mentioned to David at an end and Chris supermassive petro and enter Sweeney? I've taking this up in their letter. Wicky or spout recommend is that the mythology might be shifting. You might be shifting from the Zombie to what we saw in movie joker which is a much much more worrying? Not He's aren't worrisome. But see what you what you have in joker is you have instead of the Amorphous. Drifting mass sort of being consumed by Meaningless you have You have a profound kind of narcissism that has internalize the meaning crisis and identified with an eye in in such a way that it has provided this possible response. which is I mean? Narcissism isn't inherently absurd state By if I could make my environment absurd around then my narcissism seeds legitimate. It seems to fit not because it fits but because everything is now equally absurd we we can see how this is being taken up in politics right the the just the the emotionally and sometimes I guess also physically violent attempt to normalize absurdity so that you know pernicious officious and completely self-serving narcissism is rendered normal And you can. You can see various political figures who have adopted that strategy clearly And what's what's very because that's what they would do. This is the last ditch stand relevance realization. Because they're holding onto. Is that that at least things are relevant to me. They're not actually relevant. They don't actually make sense. But at least there's that there's that inward word pointing this. That's all that's left And I particularly concerned that that's being now modeled back to the culture the by the logically by the by by the violent narcissist that you see portrayed in joker I'm in the fact that that movie resonated with so many people and that it's the movies very careful. The movie never prevent presents him as a hero. Louis very careful nevertheless you could see how deeply attracted people were ought to him how he comes to stop he is initially. He tries to respond to the absurdity An each tries to take up an X.. Central Project but not to do these spoiler ship but as that project collapses he shifts to identify with it and to to end to violently promoting as much absurdity around him as he possibly can and that represents a particular particularly threatening. Turn in how people I think might be starting to respond to the meeting crisis So instead of people people sort of shuffling in silence there now Shouting in a kind of I duNNo. It's not even anger. Its Hind Hind existential rage that is trying to salvage the last shards of of intelligibility of meaning making so that I find that very very very worrying. And so the fact that we're getting increases in the you know in virtual exodus people leaving the real world to spend more time in the virtual world e coordinated with mythological trail of that the real world should be made absurd. That's that's very frightening But to me I take that to be Something that means the meaning crisis might be shifting how the people how it is biting into people's lives And what kind of response it's driving people to make And so that's worry On the the the the biggest risks I think facing us as the ones that I think been articulated here. that We create situations. That are rife because people are gonNA come into this and try and game what we're trying to do gave it for their own personal exploitation. That will overlap with my concern. That I just met GONNA come in and be maybe jokers and A deeply disturbing fashion So there there's that concern. There's a concern that will be overwhelmed by Nostalgia That will that will be overwhelmed by utopianism as we try to address the crisis and centrally. And I'm glad many of you have But your finger on this. There's also the concern that We're we're we're putting ourselves in position. Where a lot of the machinery of self deception that we don't even know about is going to be activated until we have to? You have to make a serious Zephyr To increase our knowledge of of those self deceptive processes especially those that are existing in distributed cognition. So so we have to take that seriously and then finally And I've already mentioned this. Just repeat it. We need to address how all of this is going to interact Iraq with the with. Cyborg the CYBORG future because act also tremendous risk. Isn't the transition from. I'm the Zombie to the joker. The kind of collapse of meaning structures nihilism the narcissism is in that kind of for part of the transition. That goods is happening in needs to happen. It could be I mean I. I think that's an understood thing to say. The thing about I mean so a good way of understanding it Is that system is going critical right on. So criticality needs the structures of breaking down and the thing that criticality the structures need to break down. You need a break if you're GONNA make a new friend is self organized. Criticality is machinery of insight. So there's definitely up so that's why I was. I I think Legally a risk is the appropriate way of putting. It's not a certainty. There's not lost their but so the the criticality is a risk in that Jack It gives us the potential for restructuring. But the problem with criticality is can also just destroyed the system can just lose integrity and fall apart. You can get system collapsed Ed So Criticality has to have a very of of using a sort of vague Adjective that's a very good set of constraints so that it reliably goes to medicine ability rather than System collapse because you know very very sophisticated systems distributed cognition have hit have hit criticality at instead of restructuring civilizations have collapsed and so I think we need to take that seriously so That's why I'm concerned. I mean I agree with you so let me be very clear about that. I agree with you you that the the most neutral way of describing it as we might be seeing sort of an intensification of the Calorie by criticality has to be treated with rate sensitivity finesse. If it's going to go into restructuring and not a not enough collapse it seems to me uncovering in this is probably the Meta thing you're trying to accomplish with your video series but it seems to me focus on the individual transitioning that kind of Kasim Hasim Nihilism into something more whatever that might be self created meeting is is that should be a central focus rather than kind of the Meta societal level thing like every individual makes up the society and we need to every individual needs their own transition pass nihilism. Well I would hope yeah I mean I agree with you but I would hope what in this what I discussed with Jordan. I would hope that we would be doing both in an integrated manner That we would be top down and bottom up Out like how leading an Intel. How good problem solving generally works that? We're doing them in a dynamically integrative manner. That's what I'm actually trying to afford much as possible cool so we only have a couple more minutes left. I'm Eric has tested questionnaire. Do you have one. I had one coming Thank you for doing this. John early appreciate it. Thank you. I'd love to hear you speak a bit about what what progress in the space looks like. The I've a lot of people come through my life for like putting their foot in the water of personal work and self transformation and unlike something like accruing money or getting promotions. It can be somewhat difficult for people to feel like they're actually making some sort of tangible progress in the wayside wayside because you have you have your whole bodily system built around that like you get dopamine from seeing progress towards a goal Sherzer. What would would if someone asked you that? Like what would how do you define yourself making progress particularly towards for some ambiguous terms like wisdom system's self transformation So one piece of advice. Stop Looking for introspective phenomena logical accuse stop looking for now sensor now. I'm wise now. I'm good now. I mean I have a question. phenomenology is going to be Involved but stocktaking that Your touchstone The best thing to do it I mean is our other people people telling you in a fairly reliable basis that you seem to not be repeating your patterns of self deception and self destructive behavior. I mean way before four I saw phenomenologically any and I was look. Oh here's a wonderful experience it. Here's a wonderful experts at doing on all of those didn't indicate anything and then unbeknownst to me people came up to me and they said a one of them was my good friend. Dan Chaffee and he said you're you're talking differently and you're writing. Writing is changed and I got an idea. I wasn't aware of that. He said the way you presenting yourself. Since you've been doing the touchy about five years the way you present yourself and the way you're talking about things has changed. It's much more balanced and flowing and that was an I've been looking for all the little treasures right. There would indicate that but that was actually a genuine marker that progress at occurred so generally I tell people start looking introspectively for the phenomena logical marketer. Because it's an unreliable strategy you'll get phenomenal. Ethical markets. All over the place in some of them will track and some Komo instead. You know our other people telling you that you're more insightful. You're more flexible. You are more capable of Getting out of those patterns that you fall into or even of avoiding them that you actually seem to have not repeated this process when you get into this romantic relationship. This one seems to be going differently. That's what I mean so. This is what I tell people. Let me just what I do as a psychologist getting people to get a first of all shift off of what does it feel like to. What our actual behavioral markers I and are they noticeable in have been noticed by other people at especially if they haven't been noticed by you first so you get to three of your friends notice something about you? You haven't noticed I and it's a behavioral change. That's a clear. Figures should pay attention to so that's again why. Belonging longing to a community of distributor admission can also be valuable. This is one of the things often even see happening online. Encircling people will see see things about you that are much better into indications of how how you're progressing than all of the stuff you see about yourself that seems to to be your treasure trove telling you that you making progress. So yeah that's what I would say to that. Just just one quick thing as that was beautiful. Thank you immediately as you're speaking. What was coming up is like a lot of people start this to get more confidence within themselves right self strength like? I don't need the validation of others but now I'm tying my own progress to getting validation from others like having it mirrored back act having the arena demonstrate to me how could you avoid like the slippery slope there of just. Aw now putting all again my power and other people's recognition national okay. So part of it is recognize that the idea that you're going to do this on your own is largely not true so the stuff we have about behavioral change. This is why weightwatchers enough Alex anonymous significant change usually with wires. You joining a group of people who else committed to the same change. No I'll do it on my own no you I mean you might but it's like you know it's the same kind of might as on smoking and I won't get cancer. Yeah you might. You might not get cancer. But where's the probabilities. So we should calibrate our efforts where where the probabilities are. If you want real change you're going to have to get you're going to have to commit to a group that is people who are also committed to change. And that's where I would say I could answer your other concern. You know again we gotta be set up for all the reasons we've talked about. It can't just be echo chamber number. It has never all the commitment to the science of the functionality of a lot of what we discussed so I'm going to take that as granted what I'm going to say to you now but if we got a group group that has been vetted according to all those criteria then. We're not just seeking validation from people right. We're seeking feedback from them and that's not not the same thing as just seeking validation And like for example. Let me give you a I. I gave you an example but I wanNA remind you feedback from my students. When I was developing the argument for the Munich crisis over twelve years was enormously helpful? I got the places of the argument where I could not yet to on my this is also Sawai alike is why I do almost all my writing with other people because they give you feedback and they D- They give you critical feedback criticism in both constructive and and destructive sense of the word. So if you can if you can be one of the clear markers let me try to put it. This way is if the people in your community giving you feedback as opposed to just validation then. Your project is primarily narcissistic driven. This is why I make it a practice actors to talk to people in this community in this space. Who deeply disagree with because they you if Jonathan at Paul right and it's also going to be Very Cohen J. P. if they see something they disagree Reykdal? Tell me man they'll tell me say they'll tell me they'll if there's a weakness they'll they'll do they'll do it in love they'll do it in respect. They're not but they will give me real feedback and so you have to commit to that kind of community. Hope that answered your question. John thanks for doing this. This has been amazing and everyone else. Thank you for joining us you. Yes he asked. Thank you so much. The questions were really really good. That's why often had to give very extensive answers because the questions were deserving are very extensive response so I welcome the opportunity That's why don't late usually like commenting on videos now because he Most of the questions require this. Kind of deep responsiveness. Thank thank you very much for the great. We love to do this again with you sometime. In the future of Europe I I will commit I will commit to it again in the future with you. Committing radio right now. Google will work. We'll work it out while we're it's mutually convenient for the definitely committing to doing awesome great regular much honky and everybody who is watching Please check out John's series on youtube awakening from the meaning crisis You can just look that up and we do who Weekly Watch parties discussing the series on Mondays at ten A. M. P. S. T. Five PM GMT. We're taking a break for Christmas but will resume zoom in January and you can also check out our past interview with John and future thinkers dot org slash ninety eight mckeever March. I guys thanks because everyone into the future thinkers giveaway and win our brand new community membership including in depth courses private calls and more as well as the supply supply of quality a- a complete cognitive upgrade for your brain to enter the contest simply go to future thinkers dot org slash giveaway and sign up for a mailing list to instantly. We get our fifty page guide on how to adapt to the future. There are many ways to increase your chances of winning. Entered the competition today. The brand new future inkers members portal is now live develop your sovereignty and self knowledge with our in dips courses get access to our weekly since making calls join the QNA's with past podcast guests and much more become a future member. Today at future thinkers dot org slash members to stay up to date with new episodes subscribe to future thinkers on your favorite platform platform and leave us a review or like it really helps out the show and forget to share this episode on social media.

David Hume hume John Alex Jordan John Jamie youtube Ed Chris Master Pietro University of Toronto Jordan Hall John Ridicule Michael Peter Lindbergh lecturer associate professor Russia Godesberg Oregon
In Your Shoes with Francesco Carrozzini

In Your Shoes With Mauro Porcini

48:18 min | 6 months ago

In Your Shoes with Francesco Carrozzini

"Hi i've motor for chini pepsico's chief design offices. Join me for our new series where we dive into the minds of the greatest innovators over time little of finding what drives them in the professional journey and in their personal life trying to uncover the universal truth. United anyone attempting to a meaningful impact in the war visas your shoes to meet the main and most exciting thing about photography is to meet people. The picture is the result. Or what happened between me and them on sat. I'm quitting our guest. Today is an emmy award nominated director and internationally known photographer. He has directed music videos for artists. Like jay z. Beyond sale any kravitz in commercials for brands. Such an asshole feared and many orders in two thousand and sixteen. He viewed at the venice film festival with a documentary franco chaos and creation which went on to play in over twenty festivals or on the ward. And he's now available in netflix's is photographs have appeared on the commerce impeaches of vanity fair the new yorker w magazine rolling stones new york magazine and vogue among solders yes photographs personalities as diverse as robert deniro kanye west naomi campbell angelina jolie michael bloomberg keith richards and jeff koons just to name a few francesco seaney wykeham to in your shoes is such a pleasure to have you with us today thank you it's the first time that might host is also a friend of mine so it's quite exciting yes i mean we know each other very very wet right then and you've been any speculation for in so many different ways over the years here in new york shutting so many different experiences so you are a photographer young director. You're an entrepreneur. You're you're investing so many friends areas and fields and you come from italy from milan. How did you get all the way to new york to a leave between the to see this. Tell us a little bit about your story. It's not the story of the the boats that traveled to america. But it's still a story of of dream and Over alternately might might story obviously starting new non with them where. I was a student Where i studied should also fee end. Where i was a world of because of my mother's job who at the time was daddy tour of of italian vogue. I was really involved in these not only fashion but i would say culture environment because the fashion touches some. It's so many odd any touches so many other Fields that I you know. That's where i kind of like started opening up my my visual dreams. My interests End the photography always being since the very beginning. Probably also. because. I was really a keith win. In the in the offices of vulgar will receive. Pictures of the likes of bruce weber. Peter lindbergh powder of you'll the best image makers of the world I really started finding these fascination for these people. My mother would send me the summer. Tweet turn at the photographer studio or to see or go work for a magazine. Maybe in a different country and go to these experience in one day half. Because i was running away from a girlfriend half half because i wanted the new experience i decided to venture new york Where i lived in In tribeca with four france Three friends plus four in an apartment. And you know started like most other kids new york really and actually is interesting because you never stop discovering people you know during your life. I didn't realize that you studied philosophy. I is being always a passion of mine. I i was always divided between the world of art and design but also wanted to study literature and philosophy. This philosophy influence who you are today and what you're doing today. Yeah you know. I think it was really the the best way to to put it and and i want to make a note here out of protests. I did all my exams and never wrote my is so i'm not a graduate. I'm only a high school graduate really But because those things that you do when you're young you don't need a piece of paper which is which is wrong. Because i now regret it but obviously the substance doesn't change excited lousy because I was interested in opening to other bush abilities. That were not only what i was i was doing. I would always try to change. And my my point of view huntings and most importantly to doubt doubt is really the fundamental part of philosophy but not the negative doubt. Not their own. My gut with. I'm going to do but emma doing things the right way. Should i do them differently. Why am i not succeeding at something. Should i turn onto a different. You know into a different direction Do i even want what i want. What i say i want. Do i want to give you make a do. I want to be a photographer. this is really i think. Engine and to the into these day. Yes i wanted other things. I've done but to this day. I still don't have certain answers i you know. I'm about to embark these big venture next year. Making my first feature movie. Mitch feature film i. Is this what i want. Yes now is what i want. 'em doing it the right way. I don't know what i'm figuring it out. There's always there's never like certainty in wartime. Do which i think becomes a positive. It's not insecurity. It's a which also can be budgeting but it's really like a general doubt that makes me challenge myself constantly. That is the best way. I can explain I love it so much. Always that push comes from within to ask. Why and will these the meaning of things and m. I need for what reason. And what is my purpose. And they've really seething uber and other people think that so far away front and trip burner sheep innovation. Any reality they're taught emerged to the heat. There is a very interesting thread that connects the two philosophy. Or you know if you know. The the meaning of philosophy has know the lava for for for knowledge but it's not knowledge. It's the process of thinking and of Rearranging thinking this is an and you know through this. I became interested in so many other things One of the biggest tragedies of my life which was my mother's death transformed into these deep interest toward the genetics towards the reading the code of life. Which you know who have ever thought i would have gotten their studied. Greek and latin studied philosophy from milan. No scientific background whatsoever. And now i talk about the crisper. Nine and it's it's it's quite it's quite it's really quite interesting that process of of constantly re challenging. You're thinking she's known more about genetics. I remember you invite me at odd to and it was fascinating. The speed of that actor If creative guy and that interest that you had on on the field can you tell us more about. Yeah yeah the you know everything from me starts with the and that's probably the photographer maker side started stories. But i think for most people. It's all about storytelling. Since the beginning of of time. I was Trying to solve a problem. That was unsolvable i was trying to save my mother from dying right. Which is a very nor money's think that everyone would have when you understand that someone grows so close to your sick and so i started looking everywhere and i and i had a very good friend who at the time. Also very very interesting guy was a musician but was becoming a biotech enterpreneur. Okay so i was like well. If he's interested. Why would i interested. And why would these be potentially an angle to understand. What's happening to me. So i went to our and i met a doctor. Robert greene who is responsible for many incredible things. Why chinese the first geno Genetics whatever you wanna call it. Clinic of preventive medicine in the world he uses leverage is genomics to try and prevent disease. It's not only about curing it but it's tried to anticipate To me very interesting concept because you know ultimately the real the real advantage we have with technology right now is that we can go so deep into people the You know a code of life. Call that genome that we can really Potentially and we do already anticipate thinks and even the sea are very interestingly changed them so the the wieners of the noble for science. This year are two women who discovered gene editing which is a mind blowing concert so through these researchers. I started getting interested in its ultimately resigned with me that you know it could be because i got into it through a very sensitive time or it could also be just because it's something that really spoke to me and so that's the story about. It started now it became a two years ago. It became a foundation Which is technically a fund within the harvard. The medical and the women in brigham hospital and we are trying to raise money for research for the most part to allow dr green team to have the time to write papers to get grants and to advance. these incredibly fascinating field where we started this conversation. We me saying that you are inspiring. We didn't even touch yet on photography design. We talk about philosophy genetics. I think the people least into us understand what they meant. That the beginning of this conversation but actually this is what we call sign thinking you know at the end of the day's deeply understanding people human beings that purpose the motivation and then figuring out out we can serve those needs and wants solutions of any kind bleed literally of any kind now talking about inspiration. You mentioned if you time your mom. By the way we didn't name her yet for an cassani icon. Mika franco sultani editor of ed. You know you grew up in them. In a situation that is a little bit surreal for manual vast. More normal people in the in the arms that are features of you in the arms of madonna nestle versus law and a friend we now mikan so many different celebrities long long list. I'll the kind of surreal situation when you add a key influence your life boarding the positive because a lot of people think well. That's beautiful is fine as easy. The reality is that i guess they're also struggles and difficult is coming from. The kind of at background is not everything you know as easy as it may seem no. It's it's easier certainly than other situations. It's maybe In the beginning it's very easy because you don't understand it. So i remember when people ask me what my mother did that. said she sold the newspapers and and i didn't really understand that she didn't really. They were not really newspapers in the magazine. She was not really selling the making them. Enders the funny. We always laughed about it with my mother. When asked me in school. You know what alexander sandra. What does your father do you know. My father is a lawyer and these women as magazines that understand it for a while. When i understood it we are the not. Maybe so weirdly. I started feeling a little ashamed of it. I started feeling a little bit You know we are about it because Friends again were lawyers. The father was a dentist doctor. You know an architect but more more traditional jobs it needed have all these glitter and glamour but ultimately gave a lot of confidence. And the reason why give me. Confidence is because In my job. Nine t and not exaggerating is about the relationship. You establish with your collaborators so if you are on a set beyond Doing a music video. Or if you are on a movie with the such and such actor The relationship with them in the trust you they should have for. You is is big. It's a big part of the component than and then everything has comes after the talent the lighting the but you really have to have a very deep relationship end ceiling kind of part of that world somehow made me always feel comfortable around these people instead of a nervous around these people and so you know I always say. I kind of music. That i was never a fan. You know like a in the technical you know way. Although i'm a fan of paul thomas anderson with die to meet Sanderson but like maybe. That's not the typical person. Someone would be a fan of or george church one of the because geneticists in the world Ordering so beyond your ups. Those i'm a fan of but i've never been a fan of the singer as i missed on that in my life but at the same time i definitely was helped by this because i felt very good around these people but the then there is also another dimension a might i met many sawn and daughter saw of lean on people. Celebrities are people have been very successful in any field. Then they grow up. They feel the way of the patent success and then when their kids they barely fraction of that success but then when they become young adults they need to show they are as good as their parents and often many of them software of the situation you are one of the few actually had found is the mansion was able really to find its way in these unique way and your path. What kind of suggestion bicycle they. You may give to any other kid and you don't need to be celebrities it could be. Just you know. Patterns have been very successful in their life. And you feel that way of the pressure and you need to show to your family to yourself probably before then you me the you can be as good as them. What what do you tell them. It's a it's it's a question that i always answered differently because it depends on the emotion of the moment what you think right but definitely definitely it is a big conversation that i will always have in my life you know. My mother was very successful But not only was very successful was also very complete as person involved in charity. She really helped people like a you know when she died. Hundreds of people texted. You know your mom gave me the time. I would have never expected. Should give and so when you set the standard. My mother was for the most partisan grandmother who raised me. You know however she so when you sat your son at that high obviously very difficult to to to compare. And i think one of the secrets is really to stop comparing very early. Which i think i was able to do early enough. And then to really jump on the train of your passions you while you believing the things you have loved for with an i must say this was I think a combination of block as well as you know being raised in a certain way you need to be a little bit angry and hungry like there are there. Are these two forces that you really need. Otherwise if you if you always think you're afforded back if you always think well than if things don't go well i can do this. I wake up really. Don't say this to lie. Your to be extreme. But i really wake up every morning thinking this could be the last day i leave this life and i have these lock and i have this chances and that is really what. My mother taught me indirectly shall she. Would we would go to eat in certain restaurants or you know being a certain situation traveling and she would say remember can end. I don't know that really gave me a lot of an deal to this day. You know i really. You know me well enough to say i'm never like well. I'm going away three months. doing these. there is always like what's the next thing what's the next thing. What's the next thing and the combination of all of these really helped me as well as being very lucky that i was recognized in my job. you know. Even after my mother passed. I still worked with very high profile. People i st louis today and that's a you know a blessing because he confirms to you. You need it that you are worth something. Yeah i look. I think is the mix of everything you know. Seven kind of circumstances that life gave you been lucky and clear alleging certain way but then the ability to leverage and that abilities mic soft skills is a mix of resilience mix of vision of ideas a willingness to to take risks. Curiosity could gyasi. The yet. Keyword is so. That's that's that's really important. You know pan in any parents. Mother and father play very important role in the life of people. I i realized these past few years. If you do a little bit of therapy any any type of peace will pay your. They're all of your parents in your life and my dream personally would be to write about my parents. And they're all of my mother my father every time in any interview. I mentioned them extra. I'm writing a book. And i mentioned you know what what they meant for me. You you had the amazing opportunity you create for yourself of even feeding an entire documentary on your mother and then also the relationship with your mother because you have the director. You're also the protagonist together. We there As the documentary we can finding. Netflix is called frank. Kyle kayla creation is beautiful stari. I saw you know from the inception. The idea the funding and the development. I remember the beautiful journey and then finally the joy of seeing it in netflix. Can you tell us more about that journey. And then what's inside. What the what is in inside that. The commentary what needs to communicate with the war yet. you know the film it as you said the therapy. This is the way. I saved money on therapy. Let's put it this way because you know spending all that time with the apparent. Apparently you really don't live with you know. I left home. When i was seventeen so i never really off as an adult or even a young adult leaves with with my mother or with although we were very close emotional. We spoke every single day. The team started the because in two thousand ten. I was losing my father and so who died very early in two thousand eleven and Really was I had these realization. I was like wow. My father is about to be gone from these world and other than the you know the memories that i have which are not even many because my father never lived with us. I have nothing. I don't have his voice. I can listen to his voice ever again. You know end. How do i compensate to this. So i said well i turn the camera on the person who was next to me my other parent who actually i knew batter and who i had more access to and i started fuming. I knew from day one that it was gonna make a movie. But i would say well. I started doing this. I knew from the this will have to become something when they end a few months later. My passed than than. I went to my grandma's house and Digging for material. And i find these eight millimeter tapes. Reels of film and We we transferred it. And i started the looking at these young girl when she's eight. Ten twelve fourteen sixteen growing up. And that's when. I said okay you know. These needs to become a movie day. Inception was long the making of was very painful. Also was my first film long film ever so all the challenges that first film bring with you and a few mentors helped me in a very much. A any burger was a great documentarian in in america and basel or men who Gave me one of the best advices. He said make the movie only you can make. Don't make them anyone. Can you know and so all of these process became the said documentary. That in almost like in a model of our movie was radi when my mother got sick so this was kind of like a circle that was closing in very strange way bad than good at the same time we got to finish the fill and You know a a literally. Few months later we were in venice Premiering the movie together in In the in this in this auditorium at the film festival and the two and a half months after my mother died so it was kind of the best way to say goodbye. And at the same time i think it is. It's hard for me to ever make For a while. let's say any are that. Has these importance for my life. Yeah if such a a sold moving and touching even the way you you tell the story you you've been working. I mean you are a master in Working with images photography you'll make him. You're being working with so many different people and celebrities and and you know it. I work in pepsico. We work with the culture of image and the pop culture images across all the different brands and and so important today more than ever because of the social media world we live in the east doug around society. We live in how important it is photography images videos all these kind of content for a brand. You've been working with many brands as well. Yes it's it's very important. it's more important. The brand knows better than you what they want. Because you become basically debris ridge between damen their vision. And i feel. There's a lot of disconnected disconnected. The you know a way of Of certain brands obviously not the big brands that are established in the very good job of like you know any even some of them. There's there's a big disconnect between the brandies and what they communicate. And and i think he always comes really to this You know the traditional way of saying okay that lasts who we are you know. I like to to work with brands. Tell me you know this will be our help status. This is the very different process That's how i got interested in investing in companies. Because i understood that there are some companies that do it and some companies that don't do it and the deportees. Obviously huge problem today. Is that even if the company tells you who they are what they want and oftentimes the phones and the accessibility of technology have on. One hand held anyone to communicate on the other hand. They completely broke the mechanism of What content creators used to back then. you know in back then. I talk about twenty years ago. Not too in the nineteen thirties fifties. So we are witnessing as image makers as filmmakers as photographers. There are some traditional ways of doing things that are still holding up You know storytelling is always no matter. The transformation will always be relevant now. Movies are suffering a little because it's a little bit about more about tv You know certainly a certain way of taking beecher's has been replaced by by phones even video. Apparently now you know with the with new phones. I have a very old phone. So i don't know but you can have a with your phone. Am i wrong. Remember kentucky we got an and that's actually a good a good idea to talk about ultimately what matters is not That you are replaced or you are replaceable. But what matters is your idea. Yeah if you can feel anything with anything at this point as long as holds as long as they're storytelling hosts i personally because i trained with a certain level of photographers in like a certain quality. I would always prefer to do things you know. I always prefer to shoot on film. i would prefer to do certain but ultimately it doesn't matter anymore these much anymore. It's about the ideas. Yeah yeah you'll working with some big brands right. I'm like like apple. If i yes i worked with that I worked with the companies. Like damyean fieger. Like mercedes meany Why it's a. It's a very long list one of your favorite projects. We want this big brands. You know i really enjoyed Working on the series called up next with apple music because the the the canvas was quite a you know white and an open and so the idea was. Let's start telling stories of young. Let's give voice to a new generation of musicians and he was coming in time of my life where i already worked with everyone from jay z. Beyond say to you. Know lenny kravitz to all of these different kinds nicki menaj and so i thought how refreshing an interesting it is now instead of now being the guy who only shoots you know the very famous people to go back into the hometowns of his new artist and tell their stories We have the lack of doing one. Which i always remember sadly that. The story ended tragically because these young guy. He's name of the artist with juice. World he was becoming very big He died and he died at nineteen years of age but we spent a week almost in chicago going around south chicago when he's neighborhood meeting is matter meeting family. And you know what one of the people we did in the very beginning. Was this very unknown a A girl Ish that no one knew of You know in other was her these new artist. Who's incredible who we did in brooklyn so it was a way to look again at a a new generation instead of only fixing on the super successful and i think that's been a leading thing for my life. Now i'm like i'm looking for both Levels of projects. That's beautiful end in the in. The relation with this corporations in these includes also companies like pepsico our company. What would be your advice as the creator working with these companies these companies should do to really leverage what creative can do in the best possible way. Yes because you know the the the formity standard here. No it's francesco. We are late i have. I don't know how many optimal that all these companies evolve voter is not but but it is possible because the world is moving so fast and we thought we we We learnt if anything with these You know pandemic that may be things don need to move that fast and so the first thing to me is let's slow this process down And then let's have real meetings and you know in order to start the in section of the the project where we talk about the bigger create widescreen division. I understand that you know we need to do a deal. That has these descended for the super bowl blah blah blah blah but. Why why is this being chosen. Y you know the and that kind of helps you getting more motivated as creative where you're not just like okay. Now i have to give them just the best idea possible for the best budget possible to make it in the shortest time possible because those are not really the only important things A lot of stuff that we reference from back in time had a different pace you know and so my my big thing is like. Let's slow down and not rushing to something that ends up sometimes. Not being exactly what you want. i believe in projects. Where that start almost creatively together you know and so that becomes a way of the way you do that is also by changing the way the system works because right now creative's have to pitch and there's five ten twelve people pitching on the same idea and it is competition any stressful and oftentimes. It's a you know a big endeavor for for nothing because you don't deliver you'll need on maybe lend the job. Whatever end end. The you know for example With artists musicians. Right now. All i do is i only approach the project if i can talk the artists You know i only. I'll do the project is we can really like make this come alive together. That to me is exciting. The rest is part of the process. And it's what we all have have to do and had to but i'm trying to To change it a little bit. At least as much as i can control talking about the pace of life we both leave in new york city and every time i talk it creative people from all around the world. Everybody's like oh my god with a dream to live in new york city the so inspiring and you are a very inspired creative artists but you have a conflict. You are really relation with new york city of a house in la. But you're always also long island and many other things you you love nature you love a different pace of life. You know funnel you are. What what's your relation with a city like new york and and what you find in in the nature and in the in the in the cd's in places outside of new york. Well you know. I think we always want what we can have. So let's let's start there. I haven't had new york in many different ways. Leaving in different places. And i think i experienced as as good as new york that i could've had end for a very long time. New york was essential to my process. A i always say. I o to to people who i am my mother and new york in new york being one of the two people who really new york exposed me. New york challenged me. New york killed me. New york made me feel you know the best In so it's this crazy drug. What happened when. I moved to zander's before i came back from new york. 'cause i met my wife and she's year and so i came back. What happened what. I leave los angeles I opened up a type of life. That i never thought was really bostanabad. Which was a life where you were not Constantly waiting to go on holiday to experience certain things it's it was these weird mix of. Oh wow eight hours a day. I'm working eight hours a day on holiday You know and the space Time by yourself. You know a lot of time in cars which some people hate. It was my really one of my favorite things about those andrews. I was able to think so much. Listen to music. Listen to podcasts. Almost like protect. It's almost like you know when people say i love flying because no one bothers me. That's kind of what was the car. The dimension for me so when it came back to new york if you add the fact that i wasn't anymore in phase wear new york was so essential right because i had my own circle of friends circle of clients. People knew me in the industry and so it was a little bit easier. You know to work regardless of where i was so when i came back to new york shock you know what i was like. Wow i'm back in a place where everything's fast. The subway stinks. It's cold it's too hot People are not very kind at coffee cost end honors. And so i felt like i. I deserve better right so ultimately the way you feel when you're in new york although i always criticized new york is a way that nodar places makes you feel. There's there's a even now when things are soul especially down down you know you know that it's very different. You live in the upper east side. New york is a different cd right now. But if you leave downtown in the creative lo lower side west side so no yorkies desert york. Seems you know much less It's just that people are not going to office so you have less traffic less. Which honestly it's very nice. It's it's even in these time. New york is still expressing. Something it saying. No it's saying we wouldn't come back it saying yes by your house in the catskills but in two years you wanna be back these things you really feel it. It's the most resilient place in the world. And i think that the reason why i can't fully detached from it is because i feel that Evening these very difficult time you know actually more importantly this difficult time new york will come back stronger. And when he comes back you will be arteries. I was part of two thousand nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen lawyers years after the. You know the recession. I was younger. I had more opportunities than and i think this would bring a lot of opportunity. So i don't i don't wanna leave new york about. I do have to take a lot of breaks from new york. I have to Leaving also in different ways. Where do you find your inspiration. It's a really all over a right now. Among since i'm very locked in home really find it in books I never really was a big fan of essays i'm reading more non fiction I'm watching a lot of documentaries. There's a strange shift that happened. Maybe with a lot of people not only with me With the strangely despite the time. We're leaving. i'm not looking for comfort in fiction. I'm looking for comfort in reality. I'm not looking to escape. I'm kind of looking to be more present and obviously there's two ways to go in this terrible times right you either say not. I want to be here now. Or i wanna dream of a different world. They're equally interesting. Maybe in the beginning when things were so shocking. I really escaped But now i feel. I feel very present. I feel like i wanna know what people think. I want to know what the people's concerns are There's a lot of stuff that is happening right now. We story clean america. That i think is very fascinating. Yeah well talking about what's going on right now in your movie on your mother on frankenhausen creation. You told about the black issue. If i if i'm not wrong you're talking in the humanitarian about that. East story issue vogg at all dedicated to black moths and literally talking about the topic. It was very difficult as study back. Then it especially in the fashion world. You're very well aware. Obviously all avenues going on right now in america black lives matter. What's your point of view on. All of these in over. The years in evans is happening right now. In or the we we. I think understand these problem. America is much more complex America's different history Not not that. The italy doesn't have dramatic story on on on many levels as we were the one ally of hitler but you know. America came in changed a lot of things for scenes We have been very supportive of america. And we don't have the same history of immigration. We don't have the same. Needs thirty offer. Because italy is already it country of immigrants with. Thanks right there's a lot of immigration between south-and-north and the unification of italy is a hundred years younger than america right so very difficult very difficult to compare what i think is I think it's time for a change. It's time for a change and out of a bad thing. Hopefully come progress America for years ago four years ago. was completely different place Metoo didn't happen Black lives matter. Was you know obviously not not happening. He was very different from. What's happening happening right now. We have to go extreme me on the other side to meet back in the middle So you know. The conversation needs to get pushed in needs to be in. Our face is You know needs to become really about You know let's open up let's change. let's really change. Not just like say we are changing This would create some tension right because obviously every time you go to extremely on one side there are going to be frictions by think shows are necessary and talking about philosophy. You know giambattista vico don. She knows a for any starting and says there are cycles and recycles in east story. You will forward two steps. You'll go back when stepped forward two steps so we create tension. But i think it's necessary. What what are you working on right now. You you mentioned a movie that you're you're about to start. Can you tell us more about that. Yeah this is another project of sweat and tears. I started a forty years ago. I read the book Right after we release the documentary. And i remember. My mother was still alive. And i told her you know found this book. I think we're gonna make it into a movie four years later between the corona virus you know financing travels whatever we haven't shoddy but we are doing it this summer. Thankfully the movie was the picture as they say was green lit so it's happening It's a novel by the famous norwegian writer. Jonas both It's not a. He's most famous nov. Alita novel called midnight sun The title of the field for various reasons and will end up being the hanging sun and the based on midnight. Sign the novel by john asthma. And it's an awful about a man who wants to raise basta end the kind of not not truly raises past but these pasta and move on and it's a story about the fatherhood. It's a story about what he needs to be Assam not only a father. And i think it was very important for me in the you know in the time i because all of a sudden was about to become The only adults in the family all the the only one responsible orla potentially one day not anymore sign but potentially one day a father. And the and i won't so woes a guy who was a coming to terms with some past and some some issue so something i Identify very much with I find a great actor a very well known initially nameless underboard eat who's going to play the lead and he's going to be surrounded by international cast. It's move english so he's going to act in english. He's the son of immigrants in the in the book so in the film. So there's obviously some you know story points the justify accents and all of that stuff but he's sublime actor. It's a beautiful story that shoots in the north of the world the show in the summer so when the sun never goes down. That's the title be. That's the reason of the title the same time it's a long story and there's very tender relationship with these kids that he meets along the way and with his mother Which i hope the audience will enjoy so you shooting in the summer and ready when it would be released if everything goes well robbie probably day in nineteen. Two thousand twenty two francesco. We touched so many different topics philosophy and photography and genetics and we talk about resilience and we talked about passion and bijon and asking why doubts i think is so inspiring so many levels for so many different kinds of people in so many different situations. So thank you so much for being with us today and for shunning your insides. Thank you for having me and It was equally inspiring to talk to share my experience. Thank you joe.

new york chini pepsico w magazine rolling stones new york magazi robert deniro francesco seaney wykeham netflix Peter lindbergh Clinic of preventive medicine brigham hospital dr green jay z milan Mika franco sultani madonna nestle mikan alexander sandra america jeff koons bruce weber
Fashion History Now #32: Dressed in Paris

Dressed: The History of Fashion

53:10 min | 2 weeks ago

Fashion History Now #32: Dressed in Paris

"Hi i'm angelina. Avocado and i can nourish near and help prevent hair life. I'm harry how straight you moisturised. And his hair red newest hottest power couple and we're both one hundred percent organic leaf legacy introduces the newest power couple for haircare hemp and avocado. There's nothing wrong with being confident in your healthy hair. Visit leaf dash legacy dot com and save ten dollars on our complete five product. Bundle package for a limited time only visit leaf dash legacy dot com. Now hey guys. It's jake brennan host of the award winning music and true crime. Podcast disgrace land. I wanna tell you about the brand new season of another show. I host called blood on the tracks. The john lennon's story it's part true. Crime part historical fiction part spoken word. Low five beaten warr and it features the fictionalized voices of david bowie. Richard nixon phil spector. Yoko ono mark david chapman and more. Listen to blood on the tracks on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcast iheartradio. We bring you the best podcasts. From the ron burgundy show to the breakfast club to stuff. You should know really all of today's biggest names but each of these shows started with an idea and now we want yours. We're looking to you for the next great podcasts. Simply go to next great podcast dot com to get the details and submit your pitch will select up to ten semifinalists and give them a thousand dollars to produce a pilot then listeners. For across the world vote on their favourite to decide the next great podcasts. Enter today at next great. Podcast dot com. That's next great. Podcast dot com. Why the next great podcast come from you. Trust the history of fashion a production of iheartradio over seven billion people in the world. We all have one thing in common every day. We all get dressed. Welcome to trust the history of fashion a podcast that explores the who what when of why we wear. We are fashion historians and your hosts april callaghan and cassidy zachary well-dressed listeners. You've heard us talking about it now. For two plus years we've finally went to paris and now we are back to tell you all about the dress. Fashion history tour of peck lee. Yes as just and we had so much fun. That apparently i will admit. Apparently i just can't let the fun. Go because i still have not unpacked one of my suit and it's you know my suitcase never even arrived. We'll maybe a little bit about that. Yeah we were actually there like ultimately for over two weeks and cassidy. Suitcase never came the entire time and as everyone kept pointing out to me. It's like others worst places to have to shop to refill your suitcase or your wardrobe. So i did a little bit of shopping although not as much as i would have hoped because i'm very particular with the things i purchase But yeah we had such a blast. I mean we keep talking about this but it's just insane. I think it's been over three years. Since our travel agent extraordinary laura hart reached out to us and said hey you know i'm starting this new business like mine travel and i think it'd be really cool if you went to some destination with your listeners. And you and i are lake. That is an excellent idea. Yes so hopefully we will continue to do this and paris was just i stop so i guess kind of what we wanted to do. Today is just speak a little bit about the trip where we where what we saw some of our favorite parts and yeah i mean i don't where do we even start was as a fashion capital of the world. Right i mean. I do wanna professes. Episode was saying that we did travel responsibly. Obviously these are very unprecedented times. We've actually canceled the trip twice because of everything that's been happening in the world with cove. Ed we did a lot of research before we even remotely considered going to france. We all had to have our vaccinations. We had to get kovic tested before we even set foot on the airplane. And then actually in france which i think is maybe an interesting way to start this episode april. France has this very specific health past system or past sanitaire in which you cannot even go into museums restaurants excetera without proving that you negative cova tasma past seventy two hours or your vaccination proof of vaccine and then it actually changed while we were there. We kind of even use our vaccination cards. We just had to get the cova testing so it's still a little bit of a volatile situation. The very first day we had lunch in paris we actually were a block away from thousands of people protesting the health pass and it was. It was quite funny because all of a sudden. They're this huge group of probably like forty riot police in full riot gear on the block fronting down for sitting outside on the sidewalk. And they're like running behind me like a foot behind me and one of them just yells bought apetit but as we've talked about to. It's very very much part of the french. Dna to protest straight. It's kind of part and parcel to their performance of democracy there so super interesting To witness and to be in france at this time but we still had quite an amazing time. Did we not. We certainly did so. Perhaps we should just kind of jump into what it is that we were up to so our guest joined us and the evening when everyone i arrived we had a lovely little cocktail reception. That was put on by our hotel which was about as parisian. And as charming as you can get and we were actually in the mamata pigalle neighborhood and we're staying at this place called maison naby and the breakfast fred alone. That they put on every morning was pretty incredible. I don't khorasan's. I literally do not eat croissants like i would never put that as my favorite breakfast or anything but i ate croissant. Every flip in morning. Because what else are you supposed to. Their pastries are so so good. Yeah we had that lovely cocktail hour. We gotta meet everybody. Who's been with us. Many of them had been with us since the very first time. We announced that. We're doing this tour so it was just a treat to meet some of you. Our listeners and person for the first time i mean as we've talked about so many times. I am in my upstairs bedroom and new mexico and april. You are in my apartment in brooklyn clementina snoring on the chair next to you while we're recording so this is our usual working method and like i pretty much talk almost every single day about like various things pertaining to the show or whatnot but we kind of record in chelsea slow like once a week so this is this is our methods so we got to see all of you in person i r. l. And in that was really cool for us. It was super cool and then the next morning we woke up and started the dress tour of paris which the very first stop was on the historic shopping. Street of paris wants the most luxurious shopping street and the world an international destination of glitter ati of society. The pays so we're not gonna go into too much detail because we actually are going to offer this as an episode coming up. I believe next week so we can take us through the ruutel. Pay tour of your ever in france and you want to us tour by yourself. You can take our episode with you. We had so much fun doing that. Yeah for sure. And we say hey. Let me just throw a couple of names here in terms of like the fashion history points. That were touching on like we went to the house of worth we went to the hasselbeck. Can we went to also scalper rallies original location and then just around the corner to the location that she moved to in the nineteen thirties where schiaparelli and this cafarelli couture house are still located today and just a little side now. We would like to thank you. Everyone at schiaparelli for welcoming in cats and i A few days before everyone arrived for a little private tour. So thank you also much. Yeah that was really really cool. We got see pieces from the latest haute couture collection which in my personal opinion has been one of the best. It was so so cool to see these pieces in person and then many pieces of the ready to wear line and then also you know like they have this whole section you walk by and it's perfume bottles and You know scalise stark perfume bottles and just like it's so cool to be there and imagine what it would have been like from the nineteen thirties. Onward yes and we'll talk about that in the middle of episode coming up as well. So do you wanna talk a little bit about some of the destinations perhaps like one in particular that was originally located on the russillo pay and then we took a little side. Jot actually visit the archive. 'cause they're shop is no longer on the russillo pay but cast we wanna talk a little bit about develop wa. Yeah so we actually did this the first week. We did something different the second week but it was so gracious of develop. They actually invited us to not only their but into their archive to see the pieces and their collection from this very historic fan making shops. So it's actually the oldest fan maker in paris in existence to this day the company originated. And we'll talk about this when the riddle a paid tour again but jean-pierre davila created this fan shop in eighteen twenty seven and in two thousand and ten michel magnon elouise geel and raphael abode relaunched this historic house and. It was actually a louise who invited us. Thank you so much to your incredible team which included johanna who gave us this archive tour april. I'm dying to know. Because you and i went separately. What were some of your favorite fans. Thought johanna shared with us. I mean i don't even know because it was just like one thing after another that she was pulling out of their drawers for us to see one of the things that i really really loved is actually one of their signature. Shapes one of their signature shapes is a balloon shape swiss with a little bit fuller and a little bit plumper than some other fans shapes and the examples that she pulled out had exquisitely hand painted little renderings of cat and dog faeces pets on the fans and those have become such a signature of the house that they actually offer kind of modern day twists on them and their contemporary line as well but the ones that really like were jaw. Dropping to me were a lot of their feather fans Including one which was a flamingo. Feather fan and yes. The feathers were white and pink. Another one where swan feathers and then and we. We also had kind of like within the group that i was with we. I did a little bit of a discussion about the use of feathers and fashion in the fashion trade. And of course we have already done an episode on that called murderous millenary about the use of feathers in millenary or hats but also at this time apply to fans as well and then johanna was telling us a little bit about how certain feathers when they can't be proven where they came from even if their feathers that were harvested far far far in the past that devil was still has in their possession still hasn't their archive they can't use them in their contemporary products. Because all these laws and ethical regulations surrounding the use of feathers in the fans that they still make today and one of the really cool things as she pulled out this box from separate shelf and inside the box for all of these thousands of tiny beautiful blue feathers that apparently were taken from blue jays but even though they have all these thousands of feathers in their possession it is illegal for them to use them in their products but but they still keep them there because it is part of the history of the house. Yeah absolutely on the history of fan making something that was super interesting was there was a fan that had like hundreds of feathers on it and she told us that the bird that supply. These feathers only had three each. So how many birds were killed just to create this one fan Yeah so if you haven't listened to her murder smell episode definitely check it out but of course. This is from the history of the house today. They're still creating wonderful fans and we of course went into their shops. Something that i wanted to say real quick before we talk about their contemporary line is that they created in the nineteenth century and early twentieth century. These animal painted fans so apparently you could commission a fan of your favorite pet. And what's so lovely about these handpainted fans is they did the front and the back of the pet so like the face of a pet and the back of their head which i just found so incredibly charming and lovely. And they've done a version of this and their contemporary line they have hamsters. I think a dog. I want to say it's a sheba. No but i could wrong and then a cat. So a fan and i know a lot of the dress listeners. Who went shopping. Got got those fans because they were superfund. I've got a fan from their contemporary line. Has the is cut out so that you can kind of hold it in. You can hide behind the fan but still see out. Essentially i also got a peekaboo fan and mine is different style than yours. Mine is all black But has little dot cutouts cut are kind of like in this. Minimalistic geometric designs. You can again see through the fan if you're behind it but people can't necessarily see you this lovely gentleman who was running their storefront. He'd only been there. I think a month or two but he gave us the most wonderful tour of their contemporary line. Which i mean fan making is an art form. These fans are still being made by hand and they had they basically range from what we would call a ready to wear fan all the way up to haute couture level like there fans in there were like thousands of dollars and they were works of art. It was absolutely incredible. Yes yes yes so we did. Stop there on the first week of our tour because we actually did two separate trips since they were two groups of what week one and week two and unfortunately because it was august and many parisians go away. All calls are on vacation in august. We weren't able to visit the second week but what we did do on. The second week was equally cool. Yeah we actually went to the oldest haberdashery and paris which who knew so cool. We went to a super cool store. Called ultra mod. Actually has two different storefronts an originally opened as a hat shop in eighteen thirty two and then it expanded to become a haberdashery which is selling small sewing notions in nineteen twenties. So we gotta check out both of those shops april. I think you about some grow green ribbon. They had like vintage ribbon and more contemporary ribbon. It was just really cool experience yet and they were showing us some like really super rare hat making materials as well that were entirely. They look like textiles. They really really look like like. I mean i guess technically it is textiles but but what they were made of straw and you couldn't tell. They looked like they were made of linen or something but You know some of their back stock they have all these really rare and precious items that can be used them sewing or hat making that date back decades and decades and decades. So and it's massive if you need buttons that is your one. Stop shopping you have. We had so much fun and therefore shirt and then actually this is all in the same day. We actually went to the eliah foundation to see an exhibition april. Do you wanna talk about that. Yeah sure so I don't think we've ever really spoken about azzedine alaya too much on the show and we will rectify that hampshire finish my but as eliah basically. He was born in tunisia and nineteen thirty five. You studied art and sculpture growing up and it was very kind of fun story about him. Studying are one of his. Mother's friends was a huge faster niece. Sta and she was a little bit eccentric so in order to help him get into art school earlier than he was actually technically supposed to because there is an age limit. She helped him by lying about his age for him on his application for. But you know he really was this prodigy essentially so while he was studying art and sculpture. He was also working for a dressmaker. Who specialize in making mature copies. So that is ultimately how. He ended up becoming a fashion designer and and throughout his work. You can really see that that art sculpture training how it overlaps into his work. He moved to paris in the nineteen fifties. Initially he was hired for a very brief moment as a taylor for christian dior but then he went on to work under fashion designers gala. Roche and syria moog lower and it was really moog ler who even though he was working for him. He was like look. You need to do your own thing. You are so good and you have such this incredibly unique point of view and your skill you need to launch her own line so he really did that in the late nineteen seventies and just grew and grew and grew in prominence You know all across the eighties. So yeah i mean his. His work is amazing. Unfortunately he passed away in two thousand seventeen but you can go and check out his foundation at the foundation eliah in paris which is located in the marais. And it's in this incredibly beautiful building where it has like this really long. Kind of like atrium. Space and exhibition that we saw actually was pairing of garments and then there's photographic representation that had been shot as fashion photographs by his longtime collaborator. Peter lindbergh so the show is just absolutely beautiful and then they do these shows. There's not like a permanent exhibition or installation per se. There's always like a a new fresh show. That will be coming in having to do with elias work. Yeah so it was really cool and exhibition design was amazing because when you enter the space all you see are peter's photographs and then as you come around each bay each separate bag you see the garment or a similar garment. That was in the photograph. In real life and on a mannequin. I mean as it is very famous for creating clothing for glamour. I mean all of these women are six foot tall plus models. I mean. it's absolutely incredible to see these pieces and on and he was such a master of construction and technique. So it's very maybe at the surface or first glance like very simple designs but so sophisticated and execution and fit. My favorite part was going upstairs because it was basically dedicated to his relationship with tina turner. So you saw some of these incredibly iconic tina turner garments on display. And then another thing that i loved about that museum. Was there flipping fashion book. Gift shop was amazing. Yes and containing book spy so many of our fellow fashion historian friends and people. That have already been on dressed. I was like going around taking pictures of everyone's books in the bookstores texting. Yeah so it made its fashioned. Centric that bookshop and side. No we all by as eliah facemasks at the bookshop. And they're the coolest construction their hand. Washable they are that kind of like breathable mesh fabric. That a lot of face masks are made out of but in true eliah forum. They are little works. Are on your face. 'cause they're very sculptural or three d. Yeah very very cool and then just kidding. That was the end of our day retired. It's crazy how much we have to pay for outdated impersonal healthcare and even crazier that we all just accept it. It's time to face facts. Healthcare is backwards. Luckily there's forward a new approach to primary care that surprisingly personal and refreshingly straightforward forward never makes you feel like just another patient backed by top rated doctors and the latest tech forward gives you access to personalized care whenever you need it. Using in-depth genetic analysis and realtime bloodwork forwards top rated doctors provide you with in-depth insights to better understand your genetics mental and physical health. They then create custom easy to understand plants to help guide you to achieving long term health. With forward you get unlimited in-person visits with your doctor and access to care anytime via the forward app offer. One flat monthly fee. It's time to stop accepting backwards. Healthcare and start moving. Your health forward visit go forward dot com today to learn more. That's go forward dot com. Check this out. Did you know merle. Norman cosmetics launch ninety years ago in santa monica california. It's a cool story. Merle believed women had great potential to influence the beauty market. So in nineteen thirty-one she began offering franchise opportunities today ninety years later. There are thousands of merle norman studios across north america. She literally put small business owners on the map. And even more impressive ninety percent are owned by women from acne to anti-aging there's skin care and makeup for every age if you're into smart probiotic technology skin diligent helps keep skin from looking dull or uneven if you've been plagued by mask need this year like so many of us the acne defense spot treatment works like magic. And here's a quick way to save fifteen percent on your first purchase. Go to the site and sign up for merle's mailing list. It only takes five seconds. They won't blow up your inbox like some other brands. And you'll end up discovering your new favourite products. Just go to merle. Norman dot com slash offers. That's m. e. r. l. e. norman dot com slash offers. Don't miss out on the top stories from the best insiders around the nfl. I'm your host rhett lewis and on the nfl inside report podcast. I'll go around the league so you can hear much more of the story. The nfl insider report. Podcast will offer thorough in-depth analysis in storytelling with a multitude of exclusive. Nfl insiders getting unmatched access. Nfl inside report will provide you with comprehensive coverage including game recaps the biggest news and in depth reports that take you beyond the headlines multiple times for week all on the nfl inside report podcast. Our exclusive nfl insiders. We'll get the opportunity to share the full extensive story so you can stop wondering what's really going on. You'll know what's happening behind the scenes in the nfl the nfl inside report podcast debut. September eighth listened to nfl inside report on the iheartradio app on apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts. And then the next day we went to another exhibition. We actually went to two exhibitions. Wednesday was like our museum exhibition day so we went to a von cleef and arpels which was really cool because it was in a very late untraditional exhibition space right for jewelry. It was harris's natural history museum which was really really cool. Yeah and so. We learned a little bit about the history of in cleveland arpels. We're not exactly sure forever. I've been saying our pell but the english tour guide version calls it arpaio. So i'm not sure if that is british english or if it's slight differentiation just throwing that out there but yeah the the show was really really cool because in addition to vanclief. Mind boggling pieces of jewelry. Because it was in the natural history museum it talked about the gemstones and had examples of them in their rough state. Like sometimes still embedded in the rock and then examples of those particular gemstones like emeralds or other of pearl or opel's or whatever like halfway through processing and then also the finished product and we gotta learn a lot about then cliffs you know signature things that distinguish their jewelry from other companies. Relearned about the mystery set. Which is this way of setting jewels. So that you don't see any of the prongs attachment essentially it's almost like these tracks that the jewel slide into you. So when they're trying to cover a surface like all the emeralds will appear to be exactly next to each other nothing separating them which of course takes a ton of time and planning and those teeny tiny stones. When they're doing that have to be the exact right shape to fit in that track. We also got a see. Just some of their other signature pieces like ballerinas. Dance is a theme throughout their work. We got to see some of those pieces. We got to see some of their iconic zipper necklaces. It was really really really breathtaking. Did you have a favorite piece cast. i mean i had so many favorite pieces. There's like the whole time thinking. How do they ensure this show. Because there's like millions and millions if not billions of dollars worth of jewelry and there. That was so so incredible. The exhibition is actually called gems at the french national museum of natural history. Oh i do have a favorite piece. Actually one of my favorite pieces was also one of the smallest. It was actually this be. That's over ninety thousand years old and the fact that this little shell had been perforated is proof that people have been endorsing their bodies for ninety thousand years so basically. That's just proving that to dress in a door in the body is one of our most innate and natural human stinks so you know just a little pitch for our show but the way we dress our bodies matters so well and then after that After we everyone had a nice lovely lunch break we head on over to the musee days. Art decorating heave where we had a plethora of fashion related things to look at again another jewelry exhibition which i really really loved. This one was not necessarily about a single designer brand but it was his overarching survey of the history of jewelry. Starting in the middle ages. Yes you heard me right. So it starts with jewelry from the middle ages and it goes all the way around to contemporary designers. And of course some of my favorite pieces and just pieces at the museum check Teeth in general where the art nouveau pieces. Oh yeah there was like a crown. Art nouveau crown. And your end you know those beautiful sinuous broaches and hair co. i know. And i might be mistaken but i think that's a permanent exhibition. I could be wrong so that was really cool and you know. The museum has a huge fashion fashion and textile collection. Which i had no idea about it was actually founded or at least the foundational aspects were created by fashion francois boucher. Who wrote this incredible book. Twenty thousand years of fashion standard text and apparently created this fashion textile collection in nineteen forty eight and it was his collection that would prove the a basis for the matt collection so so cool they have over one hundred fifty thousand pieces. I think from the third century to the present Something that was also really cool as they had a history of photography exhibition apparently they're collection includes over three hundred and fifty thousand photographs and they had a whole fashioned section which was awesome before we all went and we a little brief history of modern fashion photography and then also talking about you know par as significance that edwards. I can photographs from nineteen eleven etcetera. My favorite part of that whole exhibition was that pauper as one of his bustle gowns from night. The nineteen twenties was on view in a photograph. I've only ever seen it illustrated and it's so often referenced in the historical narrative about how he was kind of out of touch whatever in the nineteen twenties. But i'm like no. This man is like revisiting. The bustle for the twentieth century. As we know so many other people would do in his footsteps. Yeah else caporale. He did it in. Nineteen thirty nine right before the war broke out so yeah comes back again and again and again also to speaking fashion designers themselves. Can we just talk about the fact that jen lavas bathroom is actually at communicate. Desert decorative yes yes. It is complete with leopard-printed toilet seats what i'd just i mean. That was the first thing i saw before. Even it was long bands actual bathroom her bedrooms there as well and it's a super interesting story and i guess when her daughter passed away her husband preserved before a lawn. Vans house was I guess it was taken down. It was bulldozed at some point. Maybe in like the sixties. He preserved his wife's mother's bedroom her sitting room. And then the bathroom. And they're now recreated in this museum so unexpected and what's so lovely about her bedroom it's in her signature lawn bam blue and this covered in daisies which is of course what. Her daughter marguerite stands for daisy's so just a beautiful image to her daughter as she dead throughout her design career so many modules to her daughter so it was a very lovely treat. Yes it was for sure and that is also apartment permanent exhibition. 'cause you know the museum itself has a lot of those kind of like room re-creations oh there was also the quarters on bedroom very cool as well and speaking of kurdish on that pertains to the next day we went to side was amazing. And i have a lot to say about this. But i'm gonna let cast you share your thoughts. I yeah i mean we had such a wonderful time at verse. Sei we arrived. We did a little lecture which may or may not become a podcast episode as we talk to you about court etiquette adverse i. It's such a beautiful overwhelmingly large palace. Twenty three hundred rooms to be specific. Yes we did not spend much time there and we encourage our fellow travelers. not to as well. i mean. obviously if you've never been diverse you need to go through and enjoy the sheer magnificence. That is the hall of mirrors and to see marie-antoinette's bedroom with all the flowers. And all the you know feathers at the top of the bed i mean. It's incredible but what we did. That was so lovely. April is you and i walked and a lot of us walked through the gardens which was just incredible. We saw that wonderful fountain show which was completely unexpected. And yeah and then we walked all the way back to the grand canal where we picnicked leisurely as one would have in the eighteenth century so that was very very much a treat And i'll let you talk about the queen's hamlet perhaps if you'd like yes so when cast was saying earlier that we didn't spend much time what we're talking specifically about was the main royal palace the really really big palace so i guess the main takeaway because i have now been oversights several times me to and the first time i i didn't realize that all this other stuff was at the palace so there's the main palace the first time we went there. I only went there and then the gardens that were like kind of like immediately behind it. But what i encourage everyone to do is to keep going. Because there's this whole other world that if you don't keep exploring you don't know exists like the gardens themselves at kassar just referencing with the with. The water shows. Some fountains will be on if you keep going back further and they're set to music and there's all these little hidden like features called boss gets back there as well that might have a little amphitheater or a garden to the goddess diana. You could just keep going on an aunt but after the picnic where we did a little lecture. On marie-antoinette's we actually went to petite trianon and teach in on is ranch. Would let's kind of country getaway. It's not really in the countries on the site of the grounds of her psi. It feels like it's on in the country though that's how divorced it is from like all we have to say to. There's nobody back here like there's people back there. But there compared to the grand palace. The big versailles. There's nobody at the petit trio non or that queens comparatively. Yeah and that's because it is a thirty five minute walk from the main palace or train ride. There is a little tramp too so petite non was really kind of getaway where she hung out privately with her entourage. And if you've heard our roseburg episode where she was wearing her chamisa i'll read. You know this meson goal. This like everything was less formal. Because she was really over the etiquette and strict court life at court and the main palace so she lived out here with a lot of her friends and they even constructed like a whole other little hamlets in addition to her petite trianon-palace that cast. You are the one that took me there. Because i had never been there before. Yeah it's really really special. My sister and i was actually on this trip with us again but we went a couple of years ago and Walked back for the very first time. And we're just awestruck like completely floored because if you don't know about it you have no clue what to expect. And it's basically she recreated a normal village of an everyday person right so late you're not royalty. You're living in the country. What would your house and this little village look like while it would have a little lighthouse in a little lake right and then we have a moat and it would have it would have animals. There's pigs and bunnies and thatched roof to houses and there's gardeners that live out there and are actively working on the gardens. I mean i don't know if they actually live out there but that's the idea right is that you're just in this completely and to get there. It's so magical to walk there right. You're like walking through all these like wind deep pathways. They're covered with the trees and it's just such a beautiful way to get away and out into the country essentially And then the thing is is like once when it's a hamlet. We kind of like circled back to the like the main structure petite trianon and we just discovered this whole other part of petit dot. I had never been to and that was actually behind the petit trian. I've been in the petitjean on. But i'd never been behind in those gardens which was such a treat. Thank you to valerie steele for encouraging me. To find the teeny tiny little jewel box opera house. that is separate from petite trine on. That's back there in those gardens that she had built. And there's all these little like little separate structures that were just for parties. Are this or that. And i mean. Next time i go to versailles. i will go back. I think it'll be my six time the next time i go back. I'm just gonna head straight to the to the bigger gardens outside the main palace and then head back over to petitjean on and keep exploring back there so yeah and the grand jury known is back there too. Which is you know. There's a teacher in on that. There's there's a bigger house but still not even remotely close to versailles but that is also just. There's not that many people there so again you get a walk through these. These rooms are decorated. They have you know they have furniture in them and imagine what it would have been like to live there i. It's such an epic place epic experience. And i will say april. Perhaps the next time we go back it'll be to the fete galant. Which is the annual costume party that they have. I think once or twice a year the only time you can go to versailles in historical costume. otherwise you have to wear contemporary clothing That's literally part of their rules. But it's this one night once a year where it's just like this incredible party. All these people in eighteenth century costuming essentially. So you really get imagine. Just what might have been like during the day of marie-antoinette that's definitely gonna be like a kind of a once in a lifetime experience type thing especially because we have to figure out how to get dressed all light tree thou hair. I mean not the most fun. I think to get your hair done But yeah that was incredibly epic part of our trip and i think it really was for our listeners who attended as well yeah and and just a shout out to the company that are picnic because that was the most fabulous picnic. I have ever been on in my life. The food was phenomenal. Quiche we have salads. We had shark attr- boards. We had cheeses some of the best cheeses i've ever had. I mean the whole thing was just magical. We're right by that really big lake. That's behind a tonight. Yeah and there's like swan swimming by cetera and you can rent boats and something. That was really cool. The first week we were there is a. I think there was about ten women on horses because the royal horse stables reopened a couple of years ago. And so this whole group of women on the horses Came by so it was just so so cool. So if you are heading to versailles in the near future or in the future just be sure budget your day because we were there from ten. Am to six pm and did not even get remotely close to seeing it all and venture past the main palace because honestly. I think that's where the treasures really are. Yeah absolutely hey everybody. I'm adidi kinko. Voila on mikey and we are the hosts of nfl explain. It's the podcast where football fanatics come to learn everything they always wanted to know about football but didn't know who to ask they can ask us now and of course we're going through all of these topics adidi and i know you and i are so excited to start. Disseminating nothing but football nuggets. Well i've got questions of my own like do you know why the packers named the packer juno that it has nothing to do with pacman and it has everything to do with cheese not cheese meat. Meat-packing it was a meat-packing company that put five hundred dollars up for the uniform. Or how about this now. But like what constitutes an actual catch in football which i would imagine all my years of covering college. Football is a different answer now covering the nfl and unfortunately make. I don't think that we will possibly have enough time to figure that one out but the point is you're going to be able to join us every thursday to talk about every interesting detail about the game we love. It's nfl explained. Listen on the iheartradio app on apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts. I want to get back to being a community group. I want to continue having a soccer season. So i can throw parties again so i can go to her. Party's it really be nice to dine in instead of getting delivery for a change so i can feel safe and protected for myself and my students we each have our own reason for why we're getting vaccinated against covert nineteen. What we are spe- visit get vaccine answers dot org for information on the cove in nineteen. Vaccines it's up to you. Brought to you by the ad council four decades. This area has been a hotbed for paranormal sightings. This is a strange place. This part of the country about it just doesn't feel right. Strange things were having him back then and strange. Things are happening again. This other worldly corner of southeastern massachusetts bridgewater trying iheartradio in grim and mild presents. Bridgewater starring measham collins. Melissa ponchio and nathan fillion created by aaron monkey and written by lordship and listen to bridgewater now on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to podcasts and learn more at grim and mild dot com slash bridgewater team. The next day was our free day. In april and i went to a museum. That was actually a perfect companion to our si- april and i. If you had been falling through that exhibition you would have just heard us whispering to each other calling to each other you to come here come here to like kitty. School children who had found the candy shop because the musee carnival a peres now official museum. The museum of the city is a must see. Yes and the thing is is the reason why we didn't take our travelers to music. Hardaway was the fact that has been closed for five years for this massive massive massive renovation and it reopened literally like two weeks or our trip and there was no way of us knowing that it was actually going to reopen at that moment and specifically because cova vid but the section that cast and i were freaking out about basically was their higher area is the history of the french revolution. And what is in there is jaw-dropping not only some of the really famous paintings of cuiaba. Bevy us that we've already done an episode and covered and have appeared on our instagram feed. But also things like a shoe that belonged to marie-antoinette and one of her chemises is that she wore in prison and that chamisa amis was just insane. I think april. And i were just in shock honestly because i had no idea that that existed and then to learn about the history. They would not let her embroider her initials on it so they actually like the nichols that appear on it. I believe were was whoever was like in charge of watching her essentially guarding her cell. I can't exactly remember but that was just incredible. And then they have like all those relics of the royal family as well. Which is you know. It's all very sad sad. Obviously it's very very dark subject but it's pretty incredible to see it because it's a chronological exhibition. Right you start at the beginning. You learn all about the history and there's a fridge in bonnet and they're the red bonnet which was really cool to see i mean. Is there anything else you wanna talk about before we move onto my next favorite part in that museum. Well just i have a request. Are that i would like to request from the musee carnally in the french revolution section. There is a pair of earrings that are little guillotine teens that i think they date to that time period they date a little bit later to the nineteenth century but i pretty sure in the past that they used to sell reproductions of those earrings and the gift shots so dark and so i was all on board. I'm like i'm gonna go. Get this guillotine eric gifts. They did not so or gosh. It's so dark. I love it but if you did sell them my the so moving out of that section i was about halted in my tracks again because the madame wreck amihai portrait by francois girard. Is there a so early. Nineteenth century portrait very famous. She's and she appears in her on peer gown white chemises scown of the early nineteenth century with that yellow kashmir shawl. I mean i audibly gassed. When i saw that i did. Yeah it was so so incredible. And then there's also like precise bedroom is there which is more was super unexpected. And one of his jackets is in there. It was really just one treasurer after another so highly highly. Recommend this museum. Yes and if you've been before go and check it out again because again. They just went through a multimillion dollar renovation and the museum is really beautiful now not that it wasn't before yeah one more thing. The fouquet one of the early twentieth century art nouveau jeweler. Extraordinary shop front is in there. Not even just the shop front the actual store interior as well so definitely check it out. It's like the sublime example of art. Nouveau architecture yes only thing you could possibly imagine. It's like the jewelry translated architecture or vice versa. Absolutely wonderful and speaking of anything that you can imagine the next day. We jam packed day. But we started off our morning at leap. Which is the paris flea market. Which is technically not all located in paris but more so like a northern suburb called saint. Alon it is only open on the weekends. So if you're visiting paris please know that. Because i have tried to lupus several times before and for whatever reason like when i was trying to go wasn't the weekend they weren't open. We're not gonna go into a ton of detail about our shopping at lupus right now. Only because because it is the world's largest flea market where actually gonna do a separate episode and give you some perhaps some some insider tips about lip. Who's what you might find there and where to find it and what we found there because we found some treasures. Let me tell you. And then from les poos. We actually went to. We ended our entire dressed. Fashion history tour at the eve saw laurente museum with the exhibition. E laurente behind the scenes of haute couture and leone and actually. The museum is at the site of the former haute couture house where. Ysl operated his business for many many decades before retiring in the early two thousands a really incredible exhibition. It's a celebration of the forty. Plus year relationship between yves saint laurent and the most imminent leon textile houses. So here's actually seven leone-based firms that are featured And that he wurley worked closely with throughout his career to create his masterpieces. Those is this really mutually inclusive relationship. April did you have a favorite part of exhibition. Because i certainly know mine. I think maybe we might share the same thing so just a little pro tip because if you go into a museum s. l. There's like kinda up some steps and then you're at this ground floor which they have to separate exhibition spaces and if you don't know to keep going up the stairs to the other floors you might kind of miss some things so please know that that kind of like opening floor. The to exhibition spaces is not the entire museum. Just keep going up back staircase and up there. We found some additional video works and on the top floor. There was another exhibition. Space had some unbelievably beautiful evening gowns. That were definitely threaded through with lyrics or metallics. Grouping was one of my favorite. They're incredibly opulent these textiles but just around the corner from that. You actually get to go into wyatt. Els off s. o. And it's maintained as it would have been right. It's this light you're in this dark exhibition space. And then you walk into this window lined office that's just completely bright and warm and welcoming and basically it's been preserved as it would have been when he worked there. It was very moving actually and it was very lovely to be there and see like for instance. He has all of his books. He has this huge bookcase. Awhile of books right. And there's so many fashion history and art reference books that he used throughout his career that was super super special. And then one of my other favorite parts actually was very unexpected and it was the paper dolls that he created before he was an haute couture area. It's basically how they start. The exhibition and basically the wall taxed says between nineteen fifty. Three and fifty. Four eastbound. Wrong created the haute. Couture house of his dreams is before he was a correa so he was a teenager. Boy called ease match use on the wrong ochamchira plaza dome and he cut out the silhouettes of his favorite models from his mother's magazines. And then he designed entire wardrobes for them. And it's so incredible. They have some of those pieces. So it's kind of those behind. The scenes elements that a place like an archive dedicated exclusively to one designer. Is able to provide you. With these elements that other exhibitions are exhibition. Spaces just aren't going to be able to bring that level of intimacy to the exhibition. And i really really loved that part s and so we concluded our trip that evening with a really wonderful dinner at one of the most beautiful art nouveau restaurants still operating in paris and we had lots of wine and lots of courses and the food just kept coming. Absolutely yes thank you so much to the wonderful staff at brewery malarde which was just a transformative or trans sportive experience. It's literally like we are back in the early twentieth century. The tile mosaics incredible ceilings. It was so beautiful. We had a wonderful four course meal and yeah it was a really really special way to conclude what had really been just and unforgettable trip to paris in more ways than one. I made unforgettable just because of everything that we saw. But everybody that we gotta hang out with and we just want to give a huge shoutout to all of our travelers on the trip trip. One including robin tom chardonnay. Sophia gee-gee victoria khloe julie alison suzanne andrew. Melissa catherine heidi lawrence erin julia. And sam and we to jennifer jen chris. Susan aaron sally mary. Vivian sarah judy. Kerry heather stephanie. Mariah scott brindley. Sean and ali thank you all so much for joining us and of course extra special. Thanks to laura for making this all possible. Thank you thank you thank you. Well that does it for us today dress listeners. Make you consider what you aware on your future ship to paris. Next time you get dressed and if you all are interested perhaps in future trips similar to this perhaps to paris perhaps two completely different destination. Send us a dm send us an e mail. We would like to keep doing some of these things here and there perhaps long weekends but let us know if your interest and also we will put links to our show notes. Many other places we mention. And hopefully we provided you with a guide for your next future ship to paris and also of course special shadow to casey pilgrim. Our sound editor extraordinary producer extraordinaire. Who gave us so many wonderful recommendations. Thank you casey. Yes and also of course thank you as always to holly fry and everyone else at iheartradio. That makes this show possible. Each week we will catch you soon. Trust the history of fashion is a production of iheartradio for more podcasts. From iheartradio check out the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Arouse you listen to your favorite shows. The stories that are affecting the black community are being covered on the black information network. Not a show or a podcast. Bin is a twenty four seven news network covering stories from a black perspective. Listen to the black information that network on the iheartradio app and get news four and by the black community anywhere anytime keeping you informed keeping you engaged the black information network news dot com. I want to get back to kissing it cheeks and my grandbabies megan sunday dinner. What a house full of family and lots of left kobe. Nineteen has changed how we live and how we feel for now there are vaccines and they are the very first step that let us get back to what we miss most. It's okay to have questions. Is it safe now. Get the facts. Visit get vaccine answers dot org so you can make an informed decision when vaccines are available to you brought to you by the ad council guys mike. And i'm kim kabbalah. We love football so much. We figured let's start a podcast and call it. Nfl played where we just answer all the crazy questions. We get about football all the time. There are a ton of those questions. Dd we can go through team. Dame's like how the buffalo bills got their name even came up with the skycam is that is actually a really cool idea. Answers to questions like that and more every thursday. Come join us for the. Nfl explained podcast on iheartradio app or on apple podcasts. Basically wherever you find your podcasts.

paris Nfl johanna france jake brennan Yoko ono mark david chapman cassidy zachary peck lee laura hart kovic merle maison naby schiaparelli cafarelli couture house scalise pierre davila michel magnon elouise geel raphael abode tina turner eliah foundation
Instagram

Fashion No Filter

21:33 min | 5 years ago

Instagram

"This is fashion no filter where we take you behind the scenes for an unfiltered version of all the madness, I'm Cammie sharia, and I'm Monica Inle. There is so much going on behind closed doors, and we want to be your flies on the wall. The people bringing you all the things that you don't know about. And that you've always wanted to know are you ready? Today's episode of fashion filter. We are going to be looking at the wonderful world of Instagram fashion's favorite app. And how it really has changed the business allowing people to join Spiratou uneven make money, but way, before we get into all of that. Who are we and how did we get here? Well, I know how I go here. I go on the EuroStar five years ago from Paris. And I came from the north Woodland's of Canada that I came for boy, you know, they tell you to do that. But instead I fell in love with London, thankfully, that's when I met you. Yeah. We met when we both. I started as in the industry and someone introduced us. And I thought you had very good taste and Monica. I thought you had very good taste. And then it transpired that we had even more similar tastes than we might have thought. Yeah, we shut a boyfriend not at the same time, thankfully, but we have managed to stay friends through that. And now we want to take you with us behind the scenes because there is so much the remains on told about what goes on behind closed doors in this industry. Join us with VIP pass into our where little world. QB will realize that some Instagram is making money with the content that they're publishing online. Now, there are two ways of doing. That's either you'll pay to post and Brown is going to give you some money in exchange for what is effectively product placement. All there's another system called affiliate linking now affiliate. Lynn king is different. Because as an Instagram you get to choose what you are posting what you are effectively selling, and you are going to be able to earn a commission on that sale. So we've spoken to amber vents from reward style who is the founder of platform that enables Instagram is to generate these kind of affiliate links. So I'm, but can you tell us a little bit? What affiliate linking means, and how you converted this content one or Asian tool for use on Instagram when I started my blog, I was reading about things like the PS one bag, and how great it was and offline if I would take in my client into a boutique and actually sold in that bag. I would earn a commission on the sale, but. When I was doing that digitally. There is no way for me to prove it actually, I driven that consumers actually make the purchase. And so what reward style does is? We built a technology that allows us to track those consumer behaviors after their inspired from a blogger an Instagram or any digital content and we've been Bill the retailer and pay the influence or for driving that sale, and how did you convert the content monetization tool for us on Instagram? So Instagram is what we would call a walled garden, and there's a lot of restricted user functionality. And so we wanted to create a tool that allowed are influencers to extend their business into Instagram and also for consumers to have that same high level of service that they were getting on the blog. So we created a consumer service called light to know it. And when consumers register for that service online one time whenever they like a photo on Instagram that's enabled by our influencers. They actually get an Email to their inbox with that Instagram and all of the associated product information. So the consumer stays in the Instagram experience. And when they're ready to shop. Find information later it's sitting for them in their inbox. And what reward style to really do is connect that inspiration with the commerce level. So that people can actually get the shirt and dress and hat or by the birthday party through for your daughter by that facial cream or even book the hotel that you were staying at. So it's really all about a a level of service. Thank you so much talking to us in explaining this in such a comprehensive way. Thank you guys for having me. This fashion no filter coming up on the show. We have influences and who we all still right now. Look him to dress for radio where we will take you through our OT d that is out fit of the day. I am in my typical neutrals. I'm kind of like a soccer mom with a secret punctual for Zimmer. All I'm wearing about relaxed fit old school flares by far shoes. Truly, Monaco, what he means shoe, the fashion thing get cash singer. That's just shoe. I'm wearing loose-fitting comfortable Santos cashmere sweater away, acne t-shirt, a Wolford bra academies. Not wearing a bra. I'm french. I don't wear bras. Come on. I'm wearing what's my wearing. I'm kind of like you. I am wearing I'm wearing black converse. Like the kid. I talked to the soccer veg. Oh, yeah. I'm wearing vintage Levi's my five once the never come off really under tuck, neck JJ, s Lee. I think we actually quite similar today. We do I've got about fifteen more layers than you have also got my biggest coke Copenhagen coat in case. I get cold, and we're going to post these a little bit later because if you don't Instagram something has it really happened. So we'll talk dress radio look up all of our radio fits under the hashtag dress for radio. Let's take a look at something. That's really stood out recently because I feel in sometimes in fashion things can get a little bit repetitive. Not everyone takes risks. Do they know? And you're watching like all these campaigns in ads and on closing. Coming your way. And this it's it's not that often that you see something that Radi stays with you. Right. Talk about risk, takers. I have one full you. It's not like super reason. But you know, just before fashion week Kenzo Kenzo came up with video. Yeah. The video to Kenzo welts by Jones. Absolutely. That really really Stavish show that is the best fashion video I've ever I mean, it's actually better than most music videos that I've seen it had an element of Beyonce's lemonade just like letting go being yourself. So just for listeners who haven't actually seen this video, and you've got to go look it up Margaret qualley, who's this wonderful actress, not your typical fashion girl, not a model, but incredibly expressive face, very beautiful. She's sitting in this, stuffy, black tie dinner. She's in beautiful Kenzo gown, and she's kind of trying to keep yourself awake. And she gets up and politely walks out as if she's going to and then and then the magic how it's like she's possessed. Kind of alias, actually. I think the tune is cooled mutant brain on. It's what I see. She kind of. She completely moves out of this the role she's playing, you know, this this this is a lovely event, and she tons instead into the role of of hustle like running around the room on bay. Don, saying how is in every direction she she's got like actress St. shooting out of half Inga. He's audit. I don't know. It makes you just want to let loose and see how it feels. I don't know. I absolutely loved it. And when I think is wonderful about it is I need. I know I can totally relate to that feeling of when you're sitting in a stuff you've been after dinner. It's going on trying to behave yourself. You're dressed up and probably in your typical perfume ad suddenly men would appear man, and he would take our way they'd fly over the roof. But that's not what happens here at all. She goes out, and she allows herself into her own mind. She also turned herself. That's what it is. And I it was just so real the they they really killed it on this one. I think everybody seemed to agree that it's the best thing. That's come out in a very long time with actually now, we'll have oh Kenzo Mexi Gasol. In Paris, Monaco, met with Alicia weight from the popular watch brand Lawson Jennings. They are known for having launched and grown using social media as sole marketing tool, so the it's so nice to have you with us. Thank you very much. And I am very much looking forward to hearing the inner workings of Larson Jennings. Beautiful watch brand that we've all been following on his and everywhere else for a while. Now, how many years has it been going since April two thousand twelve such four Nafi is now you've been around pretty much since its conception at which point your bread had a very unique online marketing strategy using Instagram. Join Itami a bit more about that. Yeah. Sure. We launched around the same time Instagram loans itself, and so all kind of marketing strategy is growing and same way. And as many times as in scrums has we've. Changed all stretchy multiple times long way building with the with the ambulances and goes with it. We was it a leap of faith at first with Instagram. Like, do you guys must not have been it. Did you have an idea of how big it was going to be? Did you guys see into the future? Absolutely. No, I been working telegraph three or four years beforehand and journalists fashion could see how influential bloggers becoming how influences becoming kind of nuanced and streets was kind of changing. And so when I left and of welcome Lawson Jennings. One of the first people I decided to reach out to you was some bogus come cross on metropolis. Telegraph one of his Cami it just started from that. We reach out these people that great style really kind of married really well with Jennings, and they just those money involved very much just guiding process. So let's see what's next. Have you guys firmly hitched your wagon to Instagram or do you think some other form of social media? It's going to take over as in. I'm gonna go the commercial way of Facebook. And there's going to be something new tell me what you think. Tell me what you think. Absolutely be something. These and scream is still incredibly important for us. And it's a great way of showing around you all what you're about. And so constantly be dating and making sure updates as the Brown does. Well, we see have interest in making video we have our own studios sectionals website, where we see our own content from we have styled pinch wrestles snot CIA, we'll building channel by channel as channels themselves. The bottom line is that social media on this new Martinez changeable and will alter every few months, so we just have to keep up with it. Let's see. Thank you so much for taking the type shock to me. Thanks for having me. Right. So this segment is called ATO on toast, because we are have a on toast. We feel that we need to bring you youth new things to Instagram. Tines genyk, see another acai will. I am. No throw Hebrew finish. First of all. I mean, it's it's kind of weird because I don't know about you. But I definitely more drawn to eating establishments with strong interior, design components and beautiful plus mall. Okay. Okay. Okay. So food is not the only thing you can Instagram. It's pretty hot Instagram a plate of food and make it through the way. I also find it really annoying until they've taken a picture hashtag camera eats fuss. Monica come on this is one of the basic rules of living nowadays. So where did you last take a great photo of your mail my food over the? I think we're gonna go for places food in the interior. Okay. So I have I have I have one for you. There's a place in Paris cold poets, which is its muscle. Which is I think it's fairly new. I mean, I'm not in Paris too often anymore, and I do feel a little bit like a tourist Mina says he when I do go Botts. We went lost time. I was that first of all the interior. I think it's an old charge will something had like mosaics will around frisks gold. Like, oh my goodness. It was absolutely stunning. And then the ball is an old like CLYDE don't even know how to describe it. It was so beautiful. It's really interesting because in Paris. So on the one hand there's these incredibly well designed with great food as well. And then you also can go to these tiny little old fashioned decorated charming places, of course. And I remember we were taken by a friend who was a chef at do the to that pizza place in the eighteenth. And he is going to kill me when you want to go. We're not supposed to say this. We're say it's tiny. It's called pizza began day. It is the most chiming. It's by these. I mean, I don't know. How many times will listen to us like peace on listen. It's but it's probably the best pizza. I've ever had in my life. It really like there's more table. Yeah. It's tiny. In the restaurant, and they all making the food on your lap. Like, the the oven the pizza oven is literally next. You're stealing. Eating. I was like nicking it off the pizza before he was bringing it to us. But the food we ordered. I don't know how many times might have been five of us. I think we will did like nine Pete's because he wants to try them. All it was fantastic. I one of the most was during fashion week actually was one of those what we do during this is what we do drink -solutely. Yeah. So let's talk about influencers and influence on the way that we know consume it. So for me influencing an influence on social media has become this wide-ranging thrown on because whereas ten fifteen years ago people looking for inspiration in the fashion world would have to go and look through fashion archives. Maybe go to a library, if you speak essential Muslim students, and they're obsessed with it a lot of people who can find their curation of influence through Instagram has they discover and they see that their followers follow. And you could find, oh, you know, like archive pictures from ninety Peter Lindbergh that have an incredible amount of influence on designers today in their collections. Just as even the way we're dressing ourselves. I mean, I think if you see a beautiful picture peach limbo like with a shut off the shoulder. Russia would not it's spy you to not button up your Shas, and where it off the shoulder. And this kind of inspiration is endless you can find anything. And I mean, while I'm sure some fashion students still do go and actually look up these references in a library. I'm pretty sure most people, and you might be in Timbuktu, and you can still be part of the fashion dialogue through your feet. We're going to speak to Margaret saying now someone that I actually befriended on Instagram, and I'm sure lots of you follow as well and get to a little bit more about what it takes to be very successful Instagram ah, so just bumped into long lost Instagram friend, Margaret, the people that I met on Instagram. We did we did it on. Long. Now, we have actually what originally struck you about Margaret's Instagram puck captions with really funny on point. But also like if you've been on have feed, it is an extremely colorful original one of a kind Margaret I feel that you were super head of the game. When a lot of people, including bloggers were really using it as kind of like a window into like that blocking world, you really already were treating it like its own editorials of entity. Thanks almost feel like we should be talking to you, not just from the influence a point of view, but actually from like more of a business points few because you'd be advising bronze on why. It's so important to have a strong Instagram profile, can you please through what you would recommend Brown. If you're working with them. Really? I mean, interestingly from my side, I'm always telling brands not to invest in individual Instagram purse. It's about is not about buying engagement old by. Buying the numbers for like a quick flash. In the pan, your Instagram is a branding exercise. It's a free branding platform on which you can really establish like art direction. You know, the types of people that you want to be engaged with like if person is going to happen. It needs to be as part of a broader project, and that needs to be a long term relationship the brand has with the individual. So that it makes sense as a story to the consumer and they need to be right parson. It can't be like, oh, she's got one point one million followers. Great like wagon, get all these people. Incorrect like who is the demographic? You know, it's so useful. Have all those insights. Now, what is age bracket? What is the product that age racket is focused on if you give a bikini model on Instagram like a womenswear label you will sell none of the things because all their followers thirty five plus year old men who just thinks she's a bay. So like really the genius campaign is an aftershave campaign like debt is where you're going to sell aftershave like you are not. To sell luxury women's on a million follow the tunnel question. Isn't it about like the amount of full of actual engagement? Like, it doesn't matter. If someone has gotten thousands of millions of followers if engagement is not strong, right? And the sermon variables like having to study that consumer and be like, why do these people fully these person? Do they follow them to hate them in which case, you really don't want to engage with that person? Do you for that? We don't talk about very all exactly. But actually guys I just want to interject here because I won't for our listeners to fully understand. What do you mean why is engagement so portent for brands? It's a long jetty thing. It's not about. Oh, right now, we have two million followers. And that's so great. It is not about the number. It's about what they know about you. Are they going to stick around? Are they going to repeat visit you'll product you'll website, you Instagram time after time and become loyal customer. You know, it doesn't necessarily. Remain. They'll like buy a bag of Mont, the whatever it is. But they'll be a consumer advocate and all throughout consumer history. Whatever all throughout the past couple of decades, huge advertising development. Consumer advocacy has always been the Merced valuable is not necessarily about the platform, which your kind of disseminating your message. It's about is somebody going out and telling their people who would also be Tago market about why the party, so great. Why this great have you seen these isn't this interesting what they said they arguing with each other about, you know, the value of x y z are they promoting it to their friends like, that's what's the most arguing their friends tardily. They are they telling all the people about it. And that's what's going to get you long-term coverage. Thank you so much Margaret for sitting down with us and taking time out of your clearly completely hectic and amazing schedule. I am going to tell you a beautiful story Instagram, an inspirational story, there is an aspirational story. It's aspirational, it's inspirational and it's about Instagram. Are you ready? Yes. There's this girl called Lauren who I've actually met now. But I haven't for ages and I've been following her. And so have you and her handle see underscore L? Oh, she is the most wonderful people say curator like it's this like a fashion curator is this totally Wankhede. But actually, she finds the best images on Instagram in the fashion conversation and brings them together and every morning you wake up, and it's totally won't. She has. I think is is originally I think like with tumbler on Instagram people tend to like post the same thing a lot, and you tend to see the same images again, and again, and again and her feet. It is completely completely original Gino, what's wonderful about that. She is a very young student of graphic design. I believe she may have just graduate. It'd now and yet that it's a happy ever after story. She is now doing consulting for some of the top fashion labels all of the big dogs. The industry of been looking at biggest dogs looking at her account for the past year. And she really just started playing around started posting just screen grabbing things and reposting them and look at how influential she has now. Thank you for tuning in to our first episode of fashion, no filter next time. We're going to be talking to some of the beauties who have been traditionally seen and not heard there the clever models. Thank you to quote, hold for making this first episode possible. My Instagram is Monica Inle, and my Instagram is Cammy sharia. No filters. Assam fry limited production. Have this ongoing campaign that socks and sandals should be acceptable.

Instagram Paris Margaret qualley soccer Monica Brown Lawson Jennings Lynn king Kenzo Kenzo Cammie sharia founder Spiratou Monica Inle London Monaco north Woodland Radi Kenzo Mexi Gasol Levi
'A Star Is Born' - Matthew Libatique

Behind The Screen

23:21 min | 3 years ago

'A Star Is Born' - Matthew Libatique

"Zooms good. Burning. You get me. They on kitchen Bradley Cooper recently made his directory debut with stars born in which he starred with lady Gaga to make the film. He went in search of a cinematographer and on Jennifer Lawrence's suggestion he met with Matthew liberty who became his director of tog Raphy. I'm Carolyn Giardina and on today's Hollywood reporter behind the screen podcast. I'll be talking with Matti about the making of stars born. Mattie, earned an Oscar nomination for black swan and his credits. Also include requiem for dream pie straight out of Compton, the fountain inside man and iron man, Mattie. Thanks for joining us. Thank you many. In this case you worked Bradley Cooper on his directorial debut. How did the two of you meet? And what did you discuss about your approach to the cinematography? Well, I was introduced to through Jennifer Lawrence. Actually, I was working on mother with their near now ski and it was in Montreal. When I walked on the set one day Darren told me that Bradley was looking for a DP anyone to fly up to Montreal in visit me as he wanted to meet with me on Jennifer's recommendation. He didn't end up coming up, but we wrap soon after that. And my got a call from him and he wanted meet up. So I went to his house talked about the film, and we hit it off right away. And we spend 'bout you know, now and a half at his house as chatting about what we thought this story could be a lot of big concert scenes, and I know that he really wanted to create the feel that people are on the stage with the performers could you talk a little bit. How you approach it was his initial idea we had talked about initial conversations about how we were going to approach those stage performances because we knew we had numerous stage performances. I knew even shot at stagecoach and you shot during the Glastonbury festival. We shut. In between acts at stagecoach and in-between AXA Glastonbury, which was I guess at the time it was very anxious filled. But in retrospect is a thrill, and it was a thrill actually be on stage. It's the closest thing I've ever come to being a that person. But one day during prep we spend most of our time prepping at his house, actually, I wouldn't go to the office. I go see him there because he'd be working on music in his home studio, and and, you know, working on his voice working on guitar. So I'd go there, and I just sort of hang out and we'd have conversations and he. The memory had about being a Yankee Stadium seeing Metallica and sort of the feeling you had being near where seeing their perspective in place like that. And how Smalley kind of felt you know. And I think that was something he wanted to convey to the audiences you he said, what do you think if we just shot from the stage, never saw the audience's perspective. I was game. You know, I had shot straight outta Compton. I had done other form Ince's in previous films, and it is your sort of your standard view towards a musical performance is to do the presume. So I was all for trying something different it worked out here. And it just sort of spoke to the subjectivity specifically with Alli lady Gaga character in that first time she sing shallow on stage. I think we, you know, the concept born from memory, I think came to fruition when we actually shot that particularly. How do you the shooting of those scenes they hand held partially hand-held, I operated a hand held camera on stage, and I shot most of the close ups specifically with Bradley because I wanted to I'd spent so much time with them. And I'd watched him work on his music and his character physically. And you know, in terms of his musical skill that I felt like I I was sort of connected to what he was doing. And then, you know, like in any film. Oh, the camera operator and the actor sort of build over time they build sort of a synchronicity kind of like it's a kin to a quarterback in a wide receiver just knowing where each person's going to be at any given time and being able to react to them. So I opted ahead held camera. And I also had a couple other cameras on stage typically either hand-held or on steady Cam or movie gamble. So we always in a way we had the camera. Whether it be a steady camera hand-held are. Moby? We always had the ability to adjust, and it was incumbent upon myself and the other operators Chris her and Scott Sakamoto, and Chris Mosely they had to be in tune with the performances so that they could react accordingly. We had blocking specifics, but their general, you know, if she if she wanted to move away, then we need to adjust to her. If Bradley wanted to move certain way, I wanted just to him. So that was sort of the way I approached it some pressure because as I understand it on Glastonbury. You only have three minutes three. We didn't know that until we arrived that complication of having the set be completely incorrect when we got up there because Kris Kristofferson ironically was the act that we were preceding before we shot, but he was doing a performance with literally four other people. And there's too many mikes onstage, Bradley, and I ran out and just dropped the microphones down. We didn't move him. We just dropped him down. So. We wouldn't see him. And I myself I had a hand held camera. And I sort of navigate around these microphones that were on the stage floor, basically, we couldn't that's the one time. We couldn't get through a whole song. We hit the sorta specifically get through horse inverse, and then do it one more time. So we were in a mad rush. But it was probably the most thrilling part of the shoot for me. And then looking at the film in its entirety. What would you say was the overall approach that you and Bradley wanted to take because you had again, a lot of quiet scenes, the approach really everything was born out of trying to make these two characters as real as possible in terms of we had to invest everything we could cinematic to make sure that that felt like that relationship was real the actors are doing their part and Bradley had the added advantage of being the lead actor and also the director. I mean, we spent most of the time just trying to figure out where to put the camera in terms of what would be the right place to catch the emotion. So we knew we wanted to be hand held. We wanted to be kind of intimate and subjective on stage. Kind of ended up carrying over into the dramatic the narrative scenes, and then we sort of maintain that kind of approach. The camera was loose anytime. We were sort of in tighter shots. The camera was loose and had a fluidity to it where we could transition from one actor to the other if we were inspired to do so because something happened organically, and sometimes we do to cameras because we would want to just stay focused on each character. And then when we did our wide shots, it became our watch outs. Or more of the space that they were inhabiting being part of the character. So I have to hand it to him. He didn't come in with a shot a boring shot list. You know, every time we were about to shoot a scene. It was an amazing process to actually think about it because we both were in two, and it wasn't just us. I mean, he's got this infectious quality as she as an artist, and you know, it sort of infected the crew in the best possible way. So everybody was kind of into with what we were doing and what the important. Sense of giving the actors not just lady Gaga, and Bradley, but everyone, you know, Sam Andrew all of them had had to have a safe space. You know? So they could be the characters they're meant to be. And then they could explore you know, we had to do two takes or Fred to do ten takes. There was no negativity. And I think that comes from the top it comes from Bradley sort of attitude towards, you know, how you approach is trying to shoot a scene is the same way he approaches China craft the performance, it's like, that's awesome. But about this way, or you know, something's wrong. What is it? What is it? What is and not being rushed by time. Even though we were rushed by time. He never succumb to it. It's nice to have that leadership even as cinema Taga for Yosso used to maintaining pace as much as I was technically trying to make it a safe space for the actors. He was actually making a safe space for me. Now there there's one scene during which lady Gaga character. Allie goes to photo shoot. And there you are as photographer. Yeah. How stretch how did you get that role? I asked one day. I said we're talking about the scene. I said who's playing the photographer because I thought it would bring a ringer somebody. You know, we'd seen Peter Lindbergh onset shooting who's a legend absolute legend, influenced me, and I I figured we'd get some, you know, heavyweight photographer curious who might be the in Bradley said you. Are you serious? And then I thought about it. You know, I I had hosted the AFC awards three years in a row and the first year in the first year, I did it. It was kind of a rush actually, you know, sort of exercising different muscles and doing something different. But this was altogether different than that. When I do the AFC awards, I host its I I look at the audience, and I know that I know everybody out there. But there's something different to being in front of a camera. And if you over think it, you know, so he just said be yourself. Just be you. You know, you're not playing anybody but yourself so that may be filled easier. I even found the Cameron once you know, 'cause I knew the blocking anyway, so I myself accordingly. Was that the first time he did a cameo? Yeah. It is. Although there was a written line for me. I didn't remember it. So I just sort of just improvised. No Anderson there actually, a number of crew members that had cameos in this movie who some of the others. I think the only one I remember in the film that's still in we shut numerous cameos from our crew, but our property master, Mike Sexton was the doctor who injects Bradley as he had some, you know, a bag of pills or a prescription. Let's say he was in. We had our script. Supervisor Lynn who was also in the film. But I think that part got cut out, and then our first AD Shelly Ziegler was also in the film in an section. She might be in at the tail end around the time that Gaga played in the form. She's a stage manager so everybody had to play a role, but it was within our zone. Favorite scene in the film? You know, I've been asked that I gravitate towards the exterior parking lot at the beginning of the film because the whole secrets from the time he asks her out at the club that she's performing at to going to the cop bar, and sort of having that sort of get to know you chat, and then the supermarket, and then it culminates kind of in the parking lot where she sing shallow for the first time to me. That's exemplifies what it feels like to go on that magical first date. Right in this psalm Lee of the day. What? The. I love that scene because there's so many things going on. I love the location of the light. But performance wise, you know, they're getting to know each other. But you have the sense that this is what you know, if anybody who's been lucky enough to have an evening like this. I feel like that comes across and UT's shadow from a narrative perspective, you tease in the lyrics. Shallow, which you're gonna which are going to pay off a few seeds later. That's to me that's the scene where you sort of believe that they're going to actually get together, and this is going to be genuine relationship. So when they when they stayed together despite so the ups and downs of his alcoholism and his addiction. You believe that there's an attraction you mentioned that you really love the location the lining where was it shot? And could you talk a little bit about how you let that saying that was the big a supermarket in Highland Park here in LA. So it's an east side of Los Angeles are fantastic productions on Karen Murphy found that location. You know, she had decided. That Allie was an east side girl. That's where she lived. That's where she lived with her father. And I thought was a bold in perfect choice. There is many different neighborhoods as she we were looking at and then she sort of zoned in in that area. And I think it comes across, you know, their house was Angelino heights, but this supermarket we were trying to figure out we knew were going to she's going to give us the lyrics shallow. But then that's one of those devolves she stands up, and she her backdrop is this lit- beautifully lit supermarket. And it's almost like she's on stage ready and through his POV, his perspective. We're looking up at her larger than life seemingly in the percents of stage. You know, it just almost serendipitous always reminds me of this photograph by Philip Lorca the court. Yeah, I just every time when I went to the first location scout. I knew that there had to be a frame that look that way, you know, as filmmakers, and we figured out that there's this beautiful frame of her singing the song for the first time with this in Brad likes to say that, you know, a visual kind of metaphor really for her future. Did you go back and watch the Barbra Streisand? Kris Kristofferson version or any of the other. Absolutely. I revisited them before I met him the first time because like, you know, you want to go into the job interview prepared and I remember seeing the Kristofferson Streisand version with my parents at a drive in. So that was sort of ingrained in my memory, but I- revisited that. But then I what I was really surprised by love the James Mason, Judy Garland version, and you could see how different errors handled different stories and similar themes. You know, one of the things that we agreed upon was they're basically the great things in both. Homes. I think clearly because of its modernity I think that the film visually sort of resembles the language of the seventies version, but I like to think that we've peppered in a lot of the Mason garland version as well because we sort of Bradley has a sort of sense of classicism, I guess is the term that framework. She at the beginning of the film. She throws a trash away. And then she walks into that tunnel. And we just hold the camera, and it's just a wide shot that just holds, you know, I think that's sort of Oman to that type of film making where you can hold a watch out. And I think it was a nice mix and then somewhere in between we made our own film. What was it like to work with Bradley and lady Gaga actors? I was incredible. For me. I mean, I'm very fortunate. I've had the great opportunity my career to work with some amazing amazing actors. So anytime you have to people like that they're in synchronous city. It's a joy to watch. I mean, I'm lucky enough. Now that I could appreciate it more the older, I get you know, I could I could. Sort of see a great performance and just be it'd be appreciative. Not worry about the next setup. I had the added value of watching her seeing live because she didn't lip sing she sang and just be mazed by talent. And again, I was going back to the concept of something being infectious when you around somebody so immensely talented as her and so mentally talented his Bradley you can't help but try to up your game yourself. So I credit them. You know, they're kind of the muse for me when you see this film, visually if it works. If it doesn't work whatever works. I kinda credit them as an influence for me a little more detail for the cinematographers listening this Rashaad within area. Alexa, we shot with airy. Alexa, minis with cook vintage anymore fake lenses and cow an a more fake lenses. I mean, those choices were basically the mini specifically was because we wanted. I really wanted a small profile for the camera the way. Bradley was talking about how he wanted to work. It just I needed as much flexibility as possible the lens choices that was a little bit more. Okay. I'll test this. I mean tested a lot. I tested hawk anymore fix. I tested master at a more fix. I didn't go down the Panavision route. And then I tested the cook vintage anymore fix which is the first time I used them. And they they sort of forwarded me, the -bility to have a an artifact like a you're sort of your expected flaring that you'd get from an animal lens also sort of durability and color and dish in that. I really, you know, and I knew color was going to be a character in the movie these lenses sort of did that for me the way they capture color and the disparity between two different colors. I thought was it had a lot of fidelity. And then why pick the cow is because one of the things I concentrate on maybe because I spent so much time with Bradley was how do I build the visual world around this character? So he seems like Abano or seems like a Bob Dylan or he seems like. Kenny Chesney, or you know, any of these iconic people, and I wanted him seem real. So I wanted there to be a specific palette to how we see him onstage as and I wanted to to be a specific characteristic to the lenses, and sort of the dirtiness of it and the cows were older lenses. I mean, this is glass it's made in the nineteen sixties, and they flare so incredibly and haphazardly that I said, this is Jackson main. You know, it's almost like this child like quality that the character has that. I just played into an there's something musical about. There was some musical about flares to me. So I just essentially waited with his character. Which is why picked those and Anamour was something romantic, the just the whole concept of Anamour fake was romantic. And I think the film is romantic, and there's all sorts of things I convinced myself of at the beginning of anything to tell us a little bit about you. You're from New York originally, how did you get into cinematheque? Graffiti, did I get into cinematography? I mean, I a couple of different things, you know. My father was a a lab technician in New York place called Burki film labs, so he processed film. So we had a lot of gear at the house and one of the first times I ever held the camera. He was teaching me out of, you know, the shutter iris and focus, you know, the fundamentals and the first thing you said is he handed to me, and he said don't drop it in the media out of fear. I dropped the camera. So I think that was a good start to my career. And I ended up in college. I I saw then changed my life. I said do the right thing as much as I was attracted to the movie. It was it was really the first time. I was tracked into the Cameron the light. And then I looked it up. And of course, I was a big fan of spike Lee's. But then I was just I wanted to find out who Ernest Dickerson was and that was the moment for me that was the spark to become a cinematographer is I just felt like there's something to this. There's something create if there's. You know, I never really wanted a real job. And I found that not real job to go for what I saw that film. And then subsequently I started looking at different. I started looking at different DP director relationships director DP relationships, and then you go into the whole Bergman Nick fist and the Storrow to Lucci. You know, or even know at the time, it was Oliver Stone in Bob Richardson, you know, and I was just like the people who like really talented connecting, and you know, the rest of this kind of history, and I was lucky enough to find air ops gate and make small little movie called pie. This weekend. The camera mosh cinematography festival begins in bit gauche. Poland and your film stars born is in the main competition heading over you've been going for quite a number of years now, but attracts you to that festival because you know, it's really a festival in its pure science. Can't reminds to me is it's not just for cinematographers. Although that's what the focus is what people don't realize like our celebration of cinematography is also celebration of directing because what we do cinematographers is basically only as good as the vision that we're trying to create through our director or with the director, we're working with. So it is a celebration of them as much as it is cinematography. So it's a slow celebration for me filmmaking. You know, there's no market there and the competition is I don't ever hear about who won that festival. I don't really care who won the competition that festival you can walk. Away with a golden frog. And I you know, that's not what people walk away from that festival with they walk away with this international setting where you're getting the best shot films basically of the year and you're seeing other people's work from Poland from Sweden from Argentina China. And you know, where else can you do that and focus not just on cinematography? But the actual filmmaking at its core. That's why I love that place. I mean, I also just love the Camry of is a part of the AFC. I have you know, I have a lot of connection with a lot of the members. But when you go abroad to this festival all of a sudden, I'm meeting the BSE members. I'm meeting all the eastern European photographers the Russian cinematographers, there's such a common language between all of us. It's a way to appreciate and sort of extend my appreciation to their work as well. I mean, I can't say enough about it. Well, also, you're all on in indifferent. Cities than run trays during the year. And there aren't a lot of opportunities where you don't get together in the same place at the time and conversation, absolutely. Under a setting where there's not a lot of pressure. You know, it's not a market and not we're not being pulled in different directions by our movies. You know, it is as much a place for us to have this social setting where we can talk and chat as much as for watching films. It's all encompassing. And then we talk about new technology. We I o every time. I go I come back, and I've learned something whether it's by virtue of learning from another film, how was shot or just talking to some of the younger cinematographers that are coming out of film school because that's the other element is that you're getting all the cinematography coming out of film school who just came out of film school, and people are making these most, you know, they're just sending cinematography forward. So it's also giving you ideas contemporary cinematographer. What are the trends what are people doing? What's being overdone? You know, Stephanie plays the geek. Oh, I will see their. Okay, maddy. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Appreciate it.

Bradley Cooper lady Gaga director Compton Kris Kristofferson AFC Jennifer Lawrence Montreal Allie spike Lee AXA Glastonbury Mattie Matti Oscar Carolyn Giardina Alexa Barbra Streisand BSE Yankee Stadium
#163 Elton John, the one who got away! Nearly

Photography Daily

30:48 min | 9 months ago

#163 Elton John, the one who got away! Nearly

"Photography daily. It's genetic start to the week with headshots portray photographer to the stars in l. a. beyond calmer l. a story about seizing opportunity and running with it an audio workshop if you will to and out to work with a real range of personalities in the studio offering clients like the fact that we tried and play these photographer who likes to experiment casting aside the rule book for trying anything new. I believe it's so much more fun if you find stuff out yourself. You're so excited. Art is all about surprise beyond learned early on the working very personally even with the biggest names was a much better way to produce pictures. He managed to successfully avoid the onto roche. It's way more fun in place for when it's just two people who know each other without this importance of. He has a set of rules for how to talk with his more household familiar cities. You never talk about celebrity stuff right out the gate. Because see i know oprah. I feel like i'm not on with these when you do start to shoot. The experience comes before anything else within his studio people. Don't remember the story you tell him. Want not what you say on their. Remember how the felt in your presence. This is a show pace standby. Remember though because it's one of the most powerful pieces of advice in two seconds i've ever been given yeah network is your network book collectors. Look away now. What you're supposed to do in the photo book. Don't put it in shelf page out. Put on your fridge because then you really love a photograph. Talk about what. He's learned in two decades of photographing people day in day out. You become quite a psychologist to be honest. That's for sure like in terms of especially when you work together how to create a great atmosphere where people come cloth playful and open to suggestions. The whole interview starts in a way not yet begun interview. Actually ever stories of life told by photographers and today that photographer is beyond colorado. We are then the week leading up to christmas and how things can change in a matter of days. He sounds frustrated. I am on fridays photo. Walk i was feeling just a little down in that. We just entered a strict lockdown style the tier system and then a day later our prime minister took to the television screens and took us down a further level again to a new system effectively called cancel christmas. We're in the valley where three miles down the road. It's about as open as it can be with restaurants still serving eggnog. A table and families able to get together on christmas day itself and today of course we awake in the uk at least to europe essentially closing their borders to the uk over this latest strain of kobe. That's taken hold. The second wave was expected to be tough but this one is particularly difficult. So i'm pleased to be starting with a little energy this week. We need it and we'll meet a young cymru in a patron mentioned this morning to start with for andrew clock. I'm just an amateur photographer. He writes sue upgraded my camera from an old cannon g ten bridge to a fujifilm x t three at the beginning of the year for my fortieth birthday and of mainly just been shooting locally this bits and pieces that catch my eye as well as my wife and my young son hoping to improve my photography number one andrew. You'll never just anything. You're a photographer on. I check tom. Graham at clark. Gmt photography which shows me europe proper lover of nature and are popular linkup on the show notes to dan. Thank you for your support. Truly and what. We're talking insta. I saw the following quotes on masan. Harriman's instagram today. Remember miss on a guest. Not so long ago i following photographing the cover story portrays for british vogue just three years into his career. It's a quote from f scott fitzgerald for what it's worth. It's never too late or in my case too early to be whoever you want to be. There's no time limit. Start whenever you want. You can change or stay the same. There are no rules to this thing. We can make the best all the worst of it. I hope you make the best of it. Abc things that startle you up. You feel things that you never felt before a hope you meet people who have a different point of view. I hope you live a life. You're proud of and if you're not hope you have the courage to start all over again. For what a quote unperfect. I think for today's feeling also. Today's show is supported by the camera. Professional people mpp dot com the number one platform for buying selling and trading us gear in the states and europe. I know the odd fund how to promote something. I don't know haven't passing a used on this channel. Another history of using 'em pb to buy and sell and trade gear taking away the the nightmare scenario that some trading platforms have. We just don't know what you're getting. Have no guarantee often the uncertainty that the kit being advertised as the kit. You'll actually get and that's the thing about 'em pb when you buy you can click on an item and have a look at the actual thing you're buying 'em pba dot com. So i want you to meet the photographer beyond colorado who traveled from germany to the states to find his creative fortune. I think you can say. He found it an energetic enthusiastic committed of photographic experiment the type of creative who embraces throwing off the shackles of procrastination and actually the fact that he was running late the day we shed. You'll dr chat because of la gridlock on his way into the studio. Well that were left early because we caught up by zoom in his car and i have an aunt interviewed anybody in their car yet. We just chatted for five minutes as he weaved his way in slowly. And i press record. Just because really. I'm glad i did because i think this is a fitting way to introduce you to part one of two parts trust this a next week talking to a photographer who doesn't do things the way everybody else does beyond comrade to start with in his car back in the day. I was What they call it guerrilla shooter so shooting. Sure you're familiar with that term. This means you're just street and you just looking for good stuff. And that was the first fifteen years of my life i would just so these people in my i had an orange car in orange folks. I know about it. I love that. I love that thing and it was was being a beetle. No it's a call thing it's recalled the thing the thing and it's it's a. It's a volkswagen that they manufactured in the sixties and early seventies for the german army. And it looks like a kind of sort of like a beach buggy a little bit and you know you can even put the window the front windshield down. And it's a convertible. And i shut this thing for fifteen hundred bucks an i thought. Oh this is a fun car that was orange little beat up but everybody loves it. In fact it's trade. johnny. Knoxville was the first guy that you you photograph for news i. He fell in love with comedy. Yeah that was great. That was exactly down his alley jackass gang they will all about like punk rock kind of whatever is like oh this is great and so did many many many of my other clients. They just like love the fact that it wasn't this glamorous. We do this i just liked. The cowboys was still inspired by corbin. Back in the day you know when he had a star trek stuff. I thought god this guy just goes out with his camera and he has many one assistant and if you needed light. He had a flashlight on the star. Trek book was really done. He called himself like barefoot. Walk thought okay. If baffled walker gets all this beautiful stuff done why would i like. Why why. Why do i not try this. Why why just do the boring. what everybody else does. Let's see how creative you can be if you just go out and see what's up and so that became my philosophy early is that's when i would just hop with them in my thing which i always sounds kind of funny. Let me throw your my thing. What do you mean by that. Well it's the name of my car. I do that got but it broke down on me and it was. Sometimes when you in downtown los angeles you have got all the clothes in the back of the car and then it breaks down and other guy in me will waiting for a company to listen. We've got quite funny little. It's almost like a Jimmy kimmel sort of sort of Pre recording to the actual interviews net to talking to you and your car. What are you trying. Now you'll call. I'm sorry to be really personal but it looks like you. You're driving a wreck. It feels like you know how some podcasts start which i love when jamie fox is not really aware that is already recording and we do it already all right. That's what i'm looking at utah. And this is the low above. You had it. Looks like it's it seemed better days. Yeah just the caught by the way. I wonder why was in that zooming right now. Well you didn't do this home. Kids don't do it at home. Works driving boxes in the back. The the the lodge mckee boards. That i just bought i signed it pia. No and this is a yamaha. P. n. it just arrived the came a new hobby. See i'm i'm fifty now. This is the time we want to work on my brain. I can tell really that. I need to do something to stay. Chart and research says that the best thing you can do is learn an instrument and piano something that always loved. So i've studied piano in april march. Those were the two months where i seriously had. No photo shoot knows. Everything was on lockdown. And i thought that now's the time to start piano even fell in love with it. And what do you like. Could you play well yet though. I don't play well yet. I play like you have jam box. The prelude eum from the first one. So that's the one i can. Do you know. I'm not really a fancy piano player chopsticks now. I can see we've arrived at. you'll studio. This looks very flush. Look at this. That train has arrived attending. What should we continue when you're in there. Don't open up into it. Used the same lake again. Same i'll be waiting here coffee. Okay good so here we are. We're in your studio at last. Let let's start by talking about somebody who appears on your rather prominently. Top left one of music's biggest stars said elton john. Now i met sandton in a very different guys as a broadcaster many years ago now that stage of his career he was a very different character but by all accounts. He's changed very charitable. He's generous he's great to work with. How did how did you find him. So this went to a john Syndication agency and the reason was that his showed the red piano. This is a show in vegas. So he did it for three months then. Selene dion did her show. So these guys would switch at caesar's palace and so the plan was that the red piano show will be performed on the most memorable spots all over europe. The eiffel tower the brunt booger gauge. So it was a big deal and that morning. What when i want should shoot him. The whole deal went sour fell through. I wasn't the only one. And so i had a guy. He not fix or something but he was kind of in charge of He was the middleman so to say a german guy and he said oh and so are they in vanity fair italy home home. I god i hope this goes through right or no. Let's get some photos out. Lp likes you because that's the only way we can get in. He says it's all about energy. Let's feel as out so we're waiting and it's kind of. It was really like that. He walked around. You can say nah. He was just a few people that he would be open. Oh so he walked into the room and he looks around. He selected up like he could tell him and his manager. That were there at caesar's palace and they're like okay. Okay okay okay. So five minutes. I envisioned shoot completely different the night before. Romantic fantasy is and he's like okay students and he was actually nice. Considering the circumstances by professional videos he actually was nice. I think that would have been would have been a time where he perhaps within the being charitable is. He's a huge collector of photography in on and really interested in the in the craft and the story behind the patriots self. And i was going to ask. Did he ask you a lot about your photography as you're doing it doesn't it doesn't sound like he off. This conversation. Did not take place bummer. I was really bummed out the only compliment that got from his manager than they went on. And i was sitting next to the manager looking through the this playoff. My of my nikon. And he's a really good awesome. Good great job. I'm like okay thank you. Well that's half my interview on before we get a little more detailed. I'm my i want to know. We kind of tackled this a little bit in that. In that moment we had routed the start. The interview. Which i think i'm going to play out. It's a bit is a bit strange now. Because i'm thinking will i will not play that but but have to now because mentioning it I think the imperfections always. Yeah definitely do that. Now you will refer to as the crazy german Right at the start of every day and as as a touchstone johnny knoxville was. Your was your first celeb- Giving you a crazy german status. I'm sure that that went very very well. But i want to know how how this crazy german actually ended up in la. So i studied. I went to business. Fraternity was just a hobby. So i was just the normal middle class child. Nothing out of the ordinary lake. I didn't go through major. I'm our anything i've just you know. Listen my life did photos as a hobby and did not know what to study. So i went to business school because i noticed like every more on i knew would has so. Let's go to college since needs free socialized education so by the time i graduated i submitted one photo to a reader's contest of the most established german photography magazine. And i thought i would win a roll of film or something and turns out. I won the whole thing so i won ten thousand dollars ten thousand dollars and took the money and right and this happened almost the same time i graduated which a sign of the universe. Okay go for it. So i took the money and use it almost like my own workshop money so because i didn't want to go to school anymore. I've i have issues with schools so i thought learning by doing a new one guy was a music video director in la. That was my only contact and he said well. You're welcome here. You can hang out on my sets to photos and as a that's cool. I'll do that. So i took the money right after i graduated flew to la and would hang out on his music video sets missy elliott tears for fears. You just name it. I've photos of jay z. Before he was a big deal where he was on a video with a band called changing faces chaka khan so many and he would just let me always go on set. And i would just do still to black and white film. Just try to create something cool then. When i was done i went to the labor later on said well they will also curious look can we the photos and like short than they liked to. Can we buy them from you. Sure why not. So then. I made money already. And that was fantastic and learned my lighting through cinematography. Which kind of stuck with me because i liked the aesthetic of a cinematographer to be honest more than most of those big light driven fashion sets. Because there's more subtle waymo backlighting. I love boecklin and this got me into it. So and then. I had my first exhibit in berlin. And i needed the approval of all the celebrities that shot that way for instance and went to chaka. Khan's office to ask Know at a photo there. And like i would like to show this photo. That was a poster on the wall in office. Mike i was gonna ask if i can use that photo. Of course you kids she loves it via you. Think we have it as a poster in the office so that was kind of a nice encouragement. After a while i worked movie sets it a little bit for free. Just said like is much service. I wanna learn. I want to hang out on your set. And i do you get out of it and i learned and i would always hang out with gaffer's and the dp when they had a minute and ask what they're doing so you'll exposing i mean we're talking film days after a while i would like to shoot my own lighting now so this was good and also met of course a whole bunch of actress in the in this world and they said well the photo you taken of the set i can use it as a head shot and i thought they'd shot. That's beneath me. Oh wait that's my shit trip in the guggenheim ran out of money at some point. My my liquidity shrunk to almost nothing with my hitch. It's actually for making good. And i thought okay. Let's try this so you have these extraordinary opportunities to photograph stars night. I know from the graphing axa headshots you. You get to know. The manages of of stars. Like nicole kidman will smith madonna. Who are who are happy to start to test you with their own new upcoming stars like johnny knoxville e. You learn to grab immediately opportunity didn't you you weren't you went over thinking it. You weren't thinking. I better go and study this. Not quite sure. I can do that You grabbed opportunity in the iran. With even when you didn't know how to do some of it. Well i knew what i liked so this is a good good thought. I think if you know what you like an unknown and you know what you don't like your already well acquainted if you know. You're craftsmanship just enough so that you know what to do with which situation you're good. It will take a while at the beginning. I don't like it here. let's move on. Its try and offer clients like the fact that we tried and played in oftentimes their accidents. That helped me to actually evolve on the job not because it was explained to me in a book. i believe. It's so much more fun if you find stuff out yourself. You're so excited. Art is all about surprise. Because if if you already know what you're gonna paint what's the good in painting it so it's the fun is you. Take the photo and you like this came out a little bit different but surprisingly awesome when it's that slick execution that's a little bit the thing that it with advertising photography that i think is part of the lack of the soul. You know it's feels like that slick. Rei we have perfect layout everything. I the photo looks exactly like outed. And it's it's not this on little this now. You don't like an entourage. I know you prefer to work alone as much as possible with your subjects. In fact now i think you've arrived at a stage where we're even the big names. See this studio the driven us to today as this place to go hang out with you and see what you can both come up with and and you've got this great business deal now. Where were they get to use the pitches. You get to sell them. Which is quite arrangement in a time. Where often agents and managers won't want complete control over an image and that's this is dear to my years in headshots because you get a lot of people in the then blow up and it's what you more relaxed way to approach it. You don't have no wait all person behind your back. That's not gonna work for me. You know it becomes very aggravating. So it's it's way more funding place for when it's just two people who each other that without this important i have you become a goto now then in that respect because i'm sure i it it doesn't do any harm to look at your website. And he still. These famous faces staring back. Your old imagine there must be a great many people in the commercial. The think there's nobody else shooting me. Because because beyond shot x one said that's the guy for may nutso everybody. Of course this sure is this. This is how it works. It's really. I love that quote that i read one time. Your network is your network and this is how it works out unite. Wealth is. you'll network marvelous. Yeah and so what. It's the context that use devilish and that people see the process needs to be fun is another thing that's learned people. Don't remember the story you tell him what not what you say on a that. Remember how i felt in your presence and if this was good if you remember this was a fun interview. That was kind of stu again. What did we talk about. I don't remember i do remember. It felt good so seemless for the photo. Shoot doing what we talked about. I know it was funny or light or or deep or whatnot. i really like the vibe. That's crucially important. I think for especially when you shoot portrait. Because that's what you're that's the only thing that distinguishes you from somebody else. Everybody's got the camera. Lights makes me different. What why come to me. I believe is a good a good soil in which creative stuff can grow the. I know you're inspired by the great. That was peter. Lindbergh another german toga. One of fashion's greatest number one seriously is untouched. I remember when i went to college. I had book ten women by this was right up. The pirelli calendar came out and went el mirage with all the supermodels and did these beautiful contrasted black and white triax four hundred stuff. You know really. I think he. He pushed this film. Even stop to create even more punch of it. Love these images. And i fell in love aplastic kitchen. I ripped this book apart and put them everywhere. This is what you're supposed to do a photo book. Don't put it in a shelf. Cut the fan page out. Put it on your fridge because then you really love photograph. If you put it on your foot you loved photograph so much that you want to look at it every day when you have a cup of coffee that's a real compliment to have that name. Whatever brits greg gorman and you got your collection of books how often do you look into them. It's up there. No put it on the fridge. Put it on the wall and enjoying it. I could hear a thousand book collectors of just fooling their chess but Limburg he was. He was very inspired by all. Wasn't a van gogh. I think very very much abstract art. Have you have you. Have you been inspired by that as well or was it really the the great photographers that spot you more photography i again. The most research i've done was when i went to business school in that was in in desert of germany and they have a rate bookstore and they had every blake american photography magazines de all the new issues which our constantly get and i just for some reason that was this love for america already that country where land of opportunity you know. It seemed to be everything possible. There that's live engineer. Also came over here and i studied all these books with these americans. These photographers in this inspired me on the one hand and then the second pride big time was coming to hollywood the whole film world so i get most inspired to be honest. It great dp. I every time when paul cameron for instance when he did man on fire with denzel washington. What great work. I i can watch that thing over and over. The ninety were great music videos. Mark romantic these iconic music videos. Nine inch meals wapner like you just name it. The visual approach of good cinematographer turns me on big time. I mean even now television. I just watched the alienist cry. Every see they're using a haze machine almost in every shut. So i could get myself as tennis. I used that. Because i do see it in in your work if you have you go to your website. You'll see the haze in the background so very dramatic over cinematic fairly inexpensive hayes. Which is okay. Because i don't want the haste to stay in your hours which does other machines that do that. But then if you don't want to work with hayes anymore you're kind of stuck with it. This one cost me like three hundred bucks. Okay i distributed in the room. And i house probably like forty five minutes with it. Sets the background. So beautifully. Off from the donnie love. He enberg inspired set of a set is the best. I love when you see equipment in there. I just love it. And what do you think you've learned about people. You've been doing it a over two decades now you photograph so many. Vip's i entreat snow whether it's changed you much. Oh it gives you a lot of. I mean you become quite the psychologist to be honest. That's for sure like in terms of especially when you work together how to create a great atmosphere where people come clay playful and open to suggestions. How do you create that. You cannot just say like oh. This is what we do doesn't work with everybody so it's a collaboration how you approach that. And i think you. I think your subconscious that more than your consciousness thing when you do this like ten thousand hours the famous complete well so and that's the whole point of his book. Blatant if you do something for ten thousand hours. Inst- your intuition knows more than you actually conscious thinking so. It's not a rational decision. it's rather i. I should try this after in thousand hours of experience. What worked what didn't work so your sense of charlotte that way and i get a kick out how to approach it with people like the more shy person how to create common ground. Which is the most important thing right out the gate. You have to create common ground something together. That makes you a team. That is super important. It's not established. You have a hard time but howdy find common ground. Sometimes when you when you working with these come back to the celebrities over and over no no no. You don't just wear with celebrities but it must be. I was so they must be difficult to to create common ground with somebody who is essentially a product. So this is this is my philosophy. You never talk about celebrity stuff right out the gate. Because i'm know oprah. I know like i'm not on i live with these guys when i can do is is started almost like a like a late night. Show host like jimmy fallon or jimmy. Kimmel you sit down and you shed stuff. This is how comedians create common ground with everybody else. How it is that you picked the wrong lane at the cashier at the grocery store and so simple stuff and with the good sense of humor. That's usually my in. It just talked about something that happened. I got donald trump in charge so there was always something fun to talk about. I mean that guy was just like a wants the a well of should that could you could just crack jokes at this one whatnot like whatever. It is with a sense of humor. It's important that people also ask because it relaxes them. Diaphragms agency of buddy and you relaxed. More laughing is incredibly healing and relax so i'm a big fan of keep it light. Keep it fun and create a common ground with a great sense of humor. And that's why. I love watching as an inspiration jimmy kimmel and and trevor noah or whatnot. Just those guys to see how you. How'd you start a conversation. They all the moss as soon as somebody comes out and sits on this seat. They're not talking about that well to you're absolutely right. And of course when the greatest the greatest city conan o'brien and we'll feral they're just i mean the highest shooting at each other. Love it because if i can with extreme extreme way because somebody might be offended or whatnot. You don't know who's walking in the door happened to me too. That people didn't understand my sense of humor than i. Okay let's pull this one back to five tomorrow. We're back for a snapshot which features a surprise unlike gifts this time of year wednesday as the concluding par with the chiba. Jamie windsor. then. We break until tuesday just to seek christmas music in the show today with some artists. I oh and i look forward to photographing with you hearing from you and talking with you next time. Photography daily is a loading zone production.

caesar's palace europe andrew clock masan la Selene dion colorado johnny knoxville scott fitzgerald uk Harriman jamie fox roche fujifilm oprah boecklin german army Jimmy kimmel
No Bad Energy

In The Limelight

38:50 min | 2 years ago

No Bad Energy

"Hello and welcome to in the limelight many pairs entertainment entertainment and pop culture podcast. I'm josh do bof Vanity Fair Senior writer and I'm here with really Miller Vanity Fair senior Hollywood writer on in the limelight we analyzed the INS Canal of pop culture entertainment and celebrity from the past week and the Kardashians to Kate Middleton and everything in between well Julie. This is our our final episode. I guess it doesn't seem real completely final episode of in the limelight confidence staying positive that there's GonNa be another another chapter. We don't know what that looks like yet. It could be a two man show off Broadway or yeah. I have not fully processed this. <hes> we posted sit on instagram. I guess it was a few days ago now. It was on Thursday because immediately after work. Josh had a beautiful going away party from Vanity Fair. It was bittersweet but it was really fun. Any excuse to hang out with Josh is a good one but as we were celebrating all of these amazing comments from you guys were rolling and so it was like you were there celebrated with the main thing and really the comments from across the globe Poland Poland other parts of Europe. You guys are always so great about leaving us these comments and the support you guys have showed and I feel like we were both overwhelmed. It was really wonderful and our producer Brett was there and we were probably neglecting other partygoers because we kept through all the different comments and D._M._Z. emails so so many people emailed and reached out someone it's linked end message. There's really people found ways and mediums you guys are really the best and I feel like Meghan also in a weird way. She knew that this is going to be our last episode for this in the limelight I run because she put out her vogue issue like two days before our last episode which I have to believe this has happened other times to somehow somehow she did have some signs right and this has been the most substantial Meghan markle contribution I think in street it's funny because last week when we were talking thing about having to end this we were saying it was like the ticket when the tig ended and then this is like to me the biggest embodiment we've had since since the end of the return like because there's so much of Meghan writing and we're going to talk about from her British vogue issue and I just wanted to shout out to our follower snarky a key who said just like I want to keep pronouncing instagram handle to the rest of time. Even we're not recording. I'm just GonNa find handles for pronounce. She said Yeah just like men close. The TIG is now co editing the September issue of vogue. I'm expecting the same leap for you both wow that's a high goal for us to reach a high bar Julie. I'm really excited to dig into this whole issue. There's so much content that has been released from this issue already ready. We could teach a full like a centimeter course on this. I'm actually devastated. I will say that I did go. Stop by <hes> this like newsstand near in my apartment just to check to make sure they didn't have it. They don't have it. I know British vogue is sold at somewhere near my apartment but I think it just hasn't come in yet. This is it's kind of wild the scope of it. We knew that she was going to be editing. <hes> issue of British vogue but I don't think we had I at least had a sense of sort of is the magnitude of what this was all going to be like and I guess we should start with the cover. Yes Oh it's a good place start. Yes the star Julia Miller <hes> so they released this on. I think Sunday Megan's kind of statement that she gave about the issue shoe. She says these last seven months have been a rewarding process curing clambering with Edward N._F._l.. British vogue editor in chief to take the year's most read fashion issue in series focus of the values causes people making impact on the world today. I hope readers feels inspired US I do but the forces of change they'll find within these pages and then the cover cover is I'm sure most of you have seen it at this point. It's like a grid of Sixteen squares black and white black and white. There's fifteen women on the cover that Megan I guess with Edward With the team picked it includes Jane Fonda some High Eq Yara Shahidi Gemma Chan Laverne Cox Formula Djamil many any others and in the most Meghan touch of all time I think she laughed the sixteen slot empty for a mirror and eh is that your mental look in that mirror and see yourself which Julie the fact that we don't have one of these right here so that we could take a selfie with our faces for flexes the Sixteenth Bread as a bomber and then when we ever do we do a meet up the next time we do one we are going to have that issue and we're GonNa make sure every single one of you guys that comes to mcadoo is going to be required to take a Selfie and if you do find the issue please just send it to us on our instagram handle. I WanNa see I loved it. The PAL spokesmen actually gave a quote wrote about the mirror. The POW spokesman said Meghan wanted to include the reader and encourage them to use their own platforms to effect change. This is the first issue of a magazine that she's edited and she's kind of injected so much of her own d._N._A.. Invoice the actual writing which I love love. I hope though behind the scenes they had some sort of new not news crew video crew. I would love just like the Amazing Vogue September issue documentary great if they released even twenty minutes behind the scenes low of Megan working on this I would love to see because I feel like she also in the Editor's letter utter discusses how she was like learning all the jargon about magazines. It's almost like a devil wears Prada meads. I don't know what it means but like I feel like you would see I'd love to see her in the editorial meetings like trying to place things on the cover and they were like mapping it out right because I believe that she did a full crash course like wrote. Those magazine terms on note cards like index cards like in school. What did you think of the cover? You weren't impressed by it. Oh No oh I thought it was good. I think I just think that I was hoping she would somehow be in it. I feel like just from kind of selfish standpoint. It would have been fun to see her posing in some way but well. Let's say the this is a good time to jump into this so Edward was discussing the cover and he said from the very beginning we talked about the cover whether she would be on it or not. In the end she felt that it would be in some ways. A boastful put in quotes thing to do for this particular project. She wanted wanted instead to focus on the women she admires so the boastful word obviously got people kind of heated up and a lot of the kind of aftermath of this this cover people have pointed out that Kate did pose for the cover of British vogue a few years ago for in honor of their hundredth anniversary. However Kate wasn't guest editing being the issue so I think ideas that it would have been boastful because she was editing it so that if she had said I wanted to put myself on the cover that would have been seen as somehow right? I I feel like she couldn't win. Easily I agree to and this was kind of the class year agreed and I totally get why she did. This and I feel like it makes sense anyway. Oh Oh they interviewed Peter Lindbergh who shot the cover <hes> he said my instructions from the Duchess were clear I wanna see freckles and he spoke to Meghan on the phone. During the morning of the New York shoot shoot while that was like running through open doors for me I love freckles and he actually shot her vanity fair cover that she did in two thousand seventeen shortly before the engagement was announce so he and Megan have a good relationship <hes> obviously not everyone is in the same room at the same time the New Zealand Prime Minister Who's one of the fifteen women that they selected she was shot over a video feed just kind of interesting and a full said to have the country's most influential beacon of change guest at it British vogue at this time has been in an honor a pleasure and a wonderful surprise <hes> she was involved in the choice of photographer the choice of subject from the Front of the book right to the end and she did this while she was pregnant pregnant from when she had the baby and after she had the baby the she was very involved Julie she was very involved in. I love in the editor's letter how she described ABC how she actually asked to guest at it. I love this editor's letter. Feel like there's nothing that has been more big SIS and we started. It's so Meghan it's like Manna from heaven for us. It's like as if I wrote this on the thing but it's like I WANNA go back to school to like write a dissertation about just this letter her. It's also what I love about it so surprisingly logistic and detail oriented like it almost feels like she's like walking through. Oh how she got the GIG which which I love I love is not get into sort of her themes but it's mostly about sort of just like the dynamic between her and Edward Edward and the first time they met and I just think that's so cool so real it is super real. It's almost like a blog post back in the tumbler style days but it's almost like this is <hes> it was an early January on cold and blustery London Day. I don't even need to hear anything else. I was just like could end there and I think this is perfect. Kid Full Body chills when you read that I sat down for a cup of tea with British Vogue Editor in chief Edward Animal though we have several mutual friends our first encounter had been years in the making I love brings. They have mutual friends like she's really painting the whole picture dynamic and their interplay the impetus for which was my asking him to support organization. I strongly believe in okay so then to summarize a little then she kind of continues to explains that they're talking over a steaming cup of mint tea. I love the details that she throws into this. Of course you know she's going to describe their beverage choices to meet up the next time we meet up. It's going to be over steaming tea with like a dash of Rosamund M._S._n.. Or something a small Dash and then I love that you kind of describes it so clearly that she gets home. It sounds like it's a little unclear what talked about it sounds like he's basically the her to be on the cover at some point and then she gets home and decides she wants to guest edit the issue. She has a great sense of narrative editor's letter to because if you really builds you to the place and then she gets anxious because she wants to attack him to ask if Julius it's like what you were me would do like drafting the tax trying to figure out if we're like up to sending it and then she sends it to Edward asking him she says so. I asked the question actually I typed and deleted the question several times until I build up the courage to ask it Edward instead of doing the cover. Would you be open to me. Guess Editing your September issue loved the directness feel like this is a good lesson for all of us. Yes surprisingly rising. Lee Enough he says sure and then she says the ellipses the dot dot dot that inspires the greatest practice of patients in this digital Era Love Meghan just riffing surfing on sort of like the trials and tribulations of the digital era. I WANNA put a pin that because Josh does so beautifully in his own writing he like picks up on on those little details and emphasizes them in a way just in I don't know articulates them so well but it takes a certain amount of courage to get into that sort would've voice in manage just came naturally to her sweet got to be compared to mackinac die happy now you're. I know I'm serious. Your rating is much better. You've had more practice. No I can only dream so then it appeared. Edwards the reply apply yes I would love for you to be my guest editor amazing response sitting on my so fed home. Two dogs nestled across me. I quietly celebrated celebrated when the words appeared on my screen or Bogart reading somewhere good points here rolling down also this would have been a great God for our final episode. Can you imagine imagine if we had finally gotten to reveal the other dog's name which we still don't know Josh and Eric considering a trip to Toronto next month and that at which point we're going to try or oh yes so this could still resolve itself whether if we just come full on Veronica Mars Nancy drew style okay she gets into some deep tig stuff here which we're going that kind of summarized about she wants to grapple with the depth of things instead of the shallowness so this is what she says Julie for this issue I imagined imagined why would we swim in the shallow end of the pool when we go to the deep end a metaphor for life as well as for this issue. Let's be braver. Let's let's go a bit deeper and I love Josh's note in the script or right below this in all caps Julie. Is this advice for US followed by about twenty when he questioned monarchs I think it is I think it's it's nice to go to the deep and we should all be striving for that. Deep End. I know I know I have just say this letter. Vermont did exactly what you said. Earlier made me wish she had some sort of quarterly journal or wait till they communicate with us because I feel like she's like thinking about a lot and she doesn't have any way of expressing expressing it right now because she's not allowed to give interviews or keep up a website or anything and this is like an amazing outpouring of everything. She's been thinking about and again. I'm just so impressed by one the courage she has has to be this open invoke her own voice talking about what she's like think yeah exactly but to be doing this like within her what two years of being a royal when there for so many expectations and pressures again just been again. I love these logistics bringing into the kind of trickiness of like advertiser concerns here which I love even obliquely referencing but she says there's one caveat for you guys through a member of the magazine. It's still a business after all. I I share that to manage expectations for you. There will be advertising sections that are requisite for every issue so while I feel confident that you'll feel my thumbprint on most pages I got chills. Go that far. Please know that their elements that just come with the territory. I just love that. She felt the need to kind of right. Fiat advertisements yeah yeah exactly and then to me. This is the perfect way to end this. It's almost like she's did this perfectly timed up to the end of this in the limelight three years run. I was about five months pregnant with this process began and by the time you hold position your hands my husband. Denial beholding are three month old baby boy is a very special time for me personally family on so many levels working with Edward and his team but during my pregnancy and maternity leave played no small part and that joy is a privileged we welcome and supported to Edward. Thank you for entrusting me with this. I'm deeply honored to the women who've taken my aspirations visit issue and brought them to life post on the cover and Ebook. I'm so grateful your rations homeboy or support support and to you the reader thank you. I hope you enjoy and Julia. I feel like that's like us our listeners if you love in the limelight make sure to check out one of Vanity Fair's other great podcasts little Goldman is your home for Year Round Award Season Obsession from the Oscar buzz that gets started from the moment the ceremony ends to the Emmy contenders. You really need to follow in the era of peak TV each week. Mike Hogan Richard Lawson Katie Rich Joanna Robinson discussed scusi ups and downs of the Oscar and Emmy Races and talk to the people in the running from Russian doll Creator Leslie Hedlund to can you ever forgive me as Oscar nominee Richard. E grant subscribed to Goldman wherever you get your podcasts <hes>. What were you thinking when this cover came through when you first read this essay I loved this essay. I thought the cover is exactly what I would expect the cover to be. I just had a sense who was going to go that route. I Love House. We've just said I feel like it's a pretty open vulnerable all kind of introspective editor's letter in a way I wouldn't have necessarily expected like she gets into sort of what's in the issue but it's much more to me about about her own excitement about doing this and sort of the dynamic between her and Edward feeling a little bit nervous like you. You can forget a feel that <hes> I love it. I feel like our dream would maybe be she did some sort of quarterly issue but like Oprah and Oprah's magazine Dan she was on every cover. Yeah I know I kind of was the only thing that did disappoint me as I was fully just expecting. I didn't necessarily know if she'd be on the cover but I thought there'd be the photo shoot and I was waiting for that. There's one photo of her where you see her. I think it's smart works one of her charities and she's like steaming at coat or something like a trench coat the little bit I don't know but I also thought maybe there is going to be more like I wanted the whole family right. I thought maybe we'd see archie like there'd be a portrait with the queen involved but then her big the big thunder apiece with our interview with Michelle Obama. It was a centerpiece authority of well right in terms of maybe the highest profile page inside book but art. It was the last page right so again. I Love Megan's Intro to this because I kind of make an and went in deep. She described how she was able to book Michelle Obama. She said let me pull it up here. This is so peak Meghan first of all in this page in her vision for the magazine like a beautiful meal. The first bite sets the tone and the final spoonful leaves you satiated smiling and sometimes if you're dining under the direction of forward thinking chef even inspired I that to me. I need that frame somewhere so the Michelle Obama page was supposed to be that final spoonful. It wasn't a huge ask so to speak Megan wrote Josh I aspire for the day one week and also describe our interview with Michelle Obama as not having been a huge ask because the back page of Oh comprises a a few simple questions to garner a few answers tidbits that would leave you the reader feeling all the aforementioned sensations of this analogous culinary experience. She graciously said yes because she's Michelle. She's gracious and then very promptly sent answers because she's Michelle. She's prompt okay. I like that to to her. Way Of writing is a very conversational which I love rights but I also love that. She gives another caveat here and she kind of owns up to what she says says. It's a mistake and this is something that I wish I'm not sure about Josh I could do for so many of my interviews have like a sprawling intro about kind of grace policing. Saying everything I did wrong right I I told I wished I earned a josh. Clap on this final episode means so much I totally agree. I was shocked at how how real was to the rate so the whole point of this was she had these questions that she would thought would may be Garner a sentence or two and she she said I share Megan said I share all this with us of disclaimer of sorts had I known Michelle would be so generous in making this a comprehensive interview my questions would have I've been lengthier more probing more engaging the fact that she felt like she needed to kind of <hes> contextualized her interview view with so interesting to me right so this was done over e Mail Meghan goes on would have called her and included the banter on these pages. The laughs and size is and Ping Pong of dialogue as I chimed in but to reengineer that now would rob Michelle's words of their authenticity which for me is at the crux of of what makes this piece special which is also interesting to me which I was a little confused so she had lunch with her she had lime ashish but then the interview over email right which was a little bit strange but they also have. I'm sure very packed schedule. I I did feel like it was funny. Though that I mean I loved it. I felt like so much of the intro was surprisingly very honest right. I'm a little little bit surprised at vogue kind of let her get that much because I wish every magazine could give that my initially we want Giulinai. Oh my God knows how many interviews we've done over the past six years where seven years where it's like you. There's so many logistical things that go into it but you never put that in the piece listen I was was up late at night before I didn't get as much time to research like we only got twenty minutes or I thought we were GONNA get forty. The publicist called the said this is happening all the time and I kind of love that Megan just put that out into the open and was like now that I saw these millions I kinda wish we'd done a phone interview like I feel like I've had that so many times. We didn't through email interviews but that idea right <hes> and also it is interesting. I totally felt her too because I thought the answers were great they can credibly. I was reading the interview Tribu after because they feel like when you read especially if you know it's like a celebrity and everything a celebrity or it's like something like an email interview. You're not necessarily expecting like like insane depth or like now. These were great female interviews. They're usually just one signed Michelle Obama God. She's so good in her anther meeting. If if there's one person who can ace an email interview was like they were speaking in the gist I guess overall arching theme of the interview was about motherhood and and you know what lessons she would even just the emailed questions Michelle was able to be like very specific and interesting and kind of surprising it was amazing amazing also the last question Meghan ass which was what like she's coming to throw you a wildcard. Let some love you. They'll sound you've ever heard that is just I could so see Meghan typing that was so perfect to me that like all these questions up motherhood and then it was like what's the most beautiful beautiful sound you've ever heard but Michelle Dot wonderfully also I'm so curious because Megan has never edited a magazine whether Vogue was like looking at her questions beforehand like how much they were micromanaging the situation again hopefully that documentary the September issue Meghan markle edition. We'll get into it. I know I kind of wish I mean. We haven't seen the print actual physical copy at but I I wish I had done more hope says more than we would now but like more Megan interviewing writing like I feel like they should have let her even do more right right because I feel like when there have been big starry guest editors in previous magazines you don't get the sense that someone is as invested right and the actual yeah you can really sense here. That Megan was very very very into this like took it super seriously. I see her with almost like she. She didn't just have that binder. What did she have? I can see her plus. I'm GONNA say like she had. We have a thing we had vanity fair where we would map out like where people are all the magazines do it where they map out an issue sort of on a wall <hes> I could see her with that in her home like having someone had laid out for her the whole issue as you could look over each page ah I guarantee she had something like that actually because I feel like I could totally see her. Just looking at the schematics of everything and being like this page isn't working right in bed with hairy. It's still going through there so you think she also asked him other things because he interviewed Jane Goodall Right for the photo of the two of them. That's in vogue folk that I saw posted on the INSTAGRAM's Today <hes> someday when I'm guest editing British vogue I feel like I'm going to recruit so many of like <unk> out like everyone. I feel like it's fun to include your friends in this kind of thing and it's interesting to me like I haven't wow Julie just lit up. We'll because someone sent us a really a good question about this well. No No. I was GONNA say I was for some reason I was expecting when I heard this was happening. Initially that was going to be a columbine columbine. Serena Williams an interview with Priyanka Chopra some style guide with just a couple Roni like I felt like maybe it was going to go through all the people that we know she's close to and at least so far it hasn't seemed that she really did call on that crew which I kind of like actually because they feel like this is showing more that she's not just in doing the obvious calling her friends but like kind of finding the people she wanted to feature right but I was I. I assumed that it was going to be a little bit more of that. Actually snarky Aghast Ski. She said surprising that preowned Code Shobra is not in it considering. They're fifty insurance taking the words out of my mouth but I think she intentionally didn't do right which I appreciate. Do you think it's interesting though that Kate and William not the queen because like we talked about that already. I guess I couldn't really see how she would work them into this though right no. I don't think that's surprising thing but I'm curious what you think. cates reaction is going to be in. Do you think she's going to try to because Megan. Now has the higher profile. This is such a power play. This is something so much much more ambitious than anything. Is that right to say that cates attempted. I mean the garden I guess Sampras. Oh well the garden I guess emphasis what this is the kind of quote that you can't pay for enough for this stuff but do you expect in the next year or calendar year. That kate is going to attempt her own version of this but I don't even know what that would be or look like well Tom. It's interesting I actually sort of feel I was wondering almost like in the other way. If Kate sees this and it's kind of like let her do this kind of thing like I. I don't know not like I feel like it's getting so much press. I know but I feel like Kate doesn't want to do this. I don't know I get this sense that this is very much like what Meghan is excited about your naming mean right que. Did I know I know a few people had tweeted that she gets edited the Huffington Post U._K.. which like I to me the extent taken imagine her doing in this kind of vein? I don't see kate ever wanting to do this. I think that was that fun right. Also she's three kids. She doesn't at the time but case on her game. I feel like we'll see what she does not say they're gonNA do something together. That's my prediction that I feel like soon and we're GONNA see I don't know what it would be that they could do as a joint venture but something like that got him. How amazing would it have been if for Megan's British vo guest editing there've been like a spread of her and kate posing together that would be but I think they're saving that up for after some sort of big scandal maybe when they really need to like bring out the big guns right <hes> we had some really grates against so many great feedback questions comments <hes> I know it really was amazing? I've never felt so much positive feedback in my life. Take that yeah. We're not leading. Uh You WanNa read a few choice. Yes okay from again. This is very difficult. Names Pronounce Ella Milita Nov ick. I would love if you could give predictions for meg and I guess Harry to the parenthetical I guess sorry to for in the next ten years also also please right fantastic literature featuring Prince George Lodhi Louis An R._T.. As teens modeled on archie comics but instead of down by the boardwalk drama we get D- do you think she'll ever reconcile with Thomas. Wow good question I do not what do you you think I feel like if if there was going to have been reconciliation would have happened. I think that if we hear anything maybe she will put out a little gesture like she'll take a baby step seeing if he can handle the meeting without leaking it to press and he's just going to write. I just don't get enough of a a sense that she is concerned about it. You know what I mean like. I feel like he really wants to reconciliation to happen. I sort of feel like maybe she's decided. It's GonNa be something where she just move on. I don't know if you love in the limelight. Make sure to check out one of Vanity Kennedy Fares other great podcasts every week on still watching Vanity Fair senior writer Joanna Robinson and chief critic Richard Lawson discussed the latest episode of the Hottest Television Show. Oh of the moment from game of thrones is controversial finale to the many memorable moments of big little lies Richard and Joanna dive deep on the best television out there and often have conversations with the people people who create it subscribe to still watching wherever you get your podcasts what other expectations I feel like. There's going to be another unexpected for Meghan creative collaboration like with. I don't think it's going to be acting. Oh you mean like she's going to venture into some sort of like right. Maybe she wouldn't be like an beyond unsafe music video but she would do something with beyond say Yeah Yeah. No I totally agree. I feel like she's going to I feel like this British vogue cover to me. Just shows does that. She's excited to have the chance to kind of like innovate in the sense of like what a royal can do and find ways to kind of get the message of her charities across and sort of interesting ways. I could see your coming to like fashion week and doing like a sustainable fashion thing or doing some sort of like. I don't know what the T._v.. Movie version or Hollywood version of that would be something like that a documentary for net flex right about you know like working conditions or something. I don't know like I could see her getting being involved in things Harry's already doing enough thing isn't he. The documentary with is it apple with apple right. Sorry with Oprah magazine get back another prediction action. I think Megan will somehow get back to the entertainment Hollywood route somehow yes they will figure out a way to incorporate that back in to what she's working on now but in a very careful way like she did with vogue where she doesn't appear on the cover. It's not like an overt gray okay. Do you have any predictions for Kate and William though like less. I figured the less obvious there's like. I don't know it's harder to predict them going off the obvious cores I don't I know I'm curious what the fallout is going to be about all the rumors around the Prince William of fair <hes> right. If there's going to be more of that I think it's going it'd be a little bit of a bumpy road for them. Separating from Meghan inherit just because Meghan Harry are so beloved whole celebrity quotient going right right. I don't think that comes as easily for a volume so I can see there being a little more competition more them trying to maybe we have the publ. I don't know the appearances public appearances and it doesn't come I. I hope that there are more tailgates in Kate in the kid's future. I hope <hes> good one. I I also just the fact of like. Do you think George and Archie. I thought it's going to be interesting to see they're kind of like friendship develop right. I hope Charlotte's allowed to wear pants. It's important in the near future. She's always address good one. There's lot I look forward to wait so what other questions people and Camilla I. I hope they're more fun. Camila Cabello Chair <hes> okay. What else do we have have here? That's it for the responses. Well I mean I wasn't going to read all the compliments right on the Michalis just to every night right. <hes> I go to sleep. Yeah I mean we are. I feel like Julia. This has been what now three eight years of doing this. I know it's hard to even talk about. I feel like I'm going to start crying <hes> but we've been doing this a long time and I feel like we've had I feel there's been so many iterations of like the Meghan Harry Dynamics talk about but separate from that. There's like the Sushi Park of it all C._G.. Park of at all even the Balcony appearances just Camilla's clothing choices the random peripheral oils but show up for those invents shallow easy Meg to US always be Magda us like so many little catchphrases Ohio. I'm Nina Hi. I'm Nina when Katie Weaver came on and Doug dug through that Meghan markle or that's a great episode. If you go back to listen to them we had so many good guests so many incredible gas but this is not the end. We're still we're GONNA keep our social accounts active as we figure out what this next chapter will look like so if you're interested in following that with us please continue following in engaging with us. We love getting our takes on all the royal events you know where to find us. We have our individual handle to make sure you're following us on in the limelight right pond. Now I know it's it's been really fun to have a community to discuss. I know and I love the feeling of and I know I think you agree that like whenever or anything happens with the royals beyond say with like our faith celebrities. I feel like people always immediately. Will they tag us and things. Oh you guys got it in a way that most people daily lives don't so excited. It's exciting right totally agree. It's so true it's like I know if I look at my Instagram D._M._Z.. I'm going to see all the the limelight fans who have tagged us. It's very special and we really love you guys. That's been really really wonderful right on a personal level <hes> but yeah keep following that doesn't I can't believe I'm saying this the last episode of in the limelight eight again keep following us on twitter at in the limelight. You can also follow US individually. I'm at truly W Miller I'm Jay do bom for Instagram instagram. We've said it I think but it's in the limelight pod Brett our producer. Do you have anything you want to say on this last episode before we sign off Ah come on over come on over okay so this is Brad our producer faithful producer and you're not a fan of the royals at all but you've been due to listening to every single episode. I feel like the more I learn the more mysterious various all is really. Do you feel like you now have a working knowledge where if you're at a party wants to talk to you Meghan Markle you feel you can at least like convert jeopardy say a word salad of like Maroney and frog more. He knows some key words just like reach into the key word bundle decks and that's that what are you going to miss most about recording with US each week. I think think the same as your audience is just a really fun. Hang out and I feel like Josh and I I think confirmed that the party that we are friends is this official. Oh Yeah the press release going out at the end of the day. How did that even come about? What was the conversation we were talking? I think Josh looked at me and asked and I said yes and then we we made. We confirmed that we that we are actually friends now. They're usually that blunt. When you get to the point yeah? We're actually friends. I guess we're all friends Julia. Have we had that confirmation. Julie hopefully turn to see you get that confirmation but when you when you really really knows they actually want to be his friend well so that was nice and it isn't with me. I don't I believe me. I don't say that to everybody as Julie can attest hanging out with friends and getting paid for it not which is what you guys have been doing well. We are very privileged to have our producer Brett. Thank you our friend and producer. Julie hasn't had that confirmation with you. Ah So we don't know if you guys are friends or at least bridging dynamic. She just got to New York Yeah right right right New York so this this is giving me a whole different pockets would be like Howard stern vibes of lake where they're all just kind of hanging out like riffing on what they did the day before you know any <music> audio project less Lake Howard stern but it's gas well on that note bret this has been a joy and if any of you guys looking

Meghan Megan Julie Kate Middleton Josh Edward Edward Meghan markle Julia Miller Vanity Fair Michelle Obama rob Michelle editor INSTAGRAM producer US Meghan Harry Editor Brett writer Dan she