20 Episode results for "Peter Gray"

The 'Unschooling' Movement: Letting Children Lead Their Learning

On Point with Tom Ashbrook | Podcasts

47:58 min | 1 year ago

The 'Unschooling' Movement: Letting Children Lead Their Learning

"From WBZ Boston and NPR. I'm magnavox for Birdie and this is on point at first glance it sounds like the perfect fix school a place where the magical joyful energy of childhood is allowed to roam grow and explore unfettered. No rules no requirements. No boring routines. That can kill a child's love of learning. Well it's called on schooling kind of like a super size Montessori where kids have one hundred percent percents control over what they do even if it's something that looks one hundred percent not like learning organic gardening or building rockets just watching TV whatever. It is one hundred percent the child's choice. But is it a good choice this hour on point getting schooled on the unscrewing movement. And you can join us. Do you have experience experience with unsettling what does it look like for you as a parent. What was it like as a kid? Why do you do it? Does it work. And then there's this what about all those things that typical schools schools offer socialization exposure to new ideas and subjects. Even if a kid isn't interested at first what about focus and rigor and discipline. What's wrong with all that? Can you get that in unscrewing. Join US anytime at some point. Radio DOT ORG or on twitter and facebook at on point radio and before we start. I just want to give a tip of the the hat to the Boston Globe magazine. They recently wrote a piece about unschooled. Where the inspiration for this hour came from the author of that piece of fortunately was unable to join us today? But we've got a link to the the globe story at on point radio DOT ORG do check it out well joining me I today from Philadelphia is Maliki digs. She unschooled her eleven and thirteen year old daughters. There's neither of whom have ever attended a brick and mortar school. She's also the founder of ECLECTIC learning network a secular black and Brown centered home education. Patient Network Maliki digs. Welcome two point. Oh thank you magnetic. Thank you so much for having me today. It's great to have you so so first of all walk us through a typical day for your daughters autres. What is what do they do? When they're being unschooled? You know for me. The the short answer is everything and nothing Every everyday has a different tune and for for our family on schooling or self directed. Learning is something that we've embraced over the years and it allows them the freedom to be able to explore ideas thoughts Whether it'd be read a book or maybe start off and kick off the day watching television either way. It's it's their decision. And my focus becomes to guide them through whatever decisions that they make to ensure that their experiences fruitful as they would like it to be so I I think the sounds Quite revolutionary or at least very unfamiliar to a lot of people who might be listening so I mean if you could just sort of take us down to the level. I love what you do starting in the morning when when your girls wake up. How does the schooling day begin? It totally begins with freedom. I mean they are morning morning their morning. Folks I am not At eleven and thirteen they are able to prepare their own food. So you don't have to have that stick of own on the meek get up and Cook Breakfast for my daughter's this morning that's not our case So the beginning starts off with a meal Just actually as I left today they were cutting up some and peppers to make omelets for themselves. So that's how they starts and it just progresses from there whether it's they have maybe some workbooks that they're interested in and I I think there's a misnomer when it comes to schooling is that young people don't use books if it is their choice Most definitely and that's one of my daughters. Does she enjoys he's reading. And engaging in workbooks and learning about different topics of her choosing where my other daughter is very much focused on the humanities and she loves music and dance and drumming so that they could start off pretty clean and it could end with everything in truly nothing so it that really is how the day is and so. Is this taking place all inside your home because one of the things I was reading about in the unschooled movement is that there are some places where there's an unschooled center for example where families kids can go to whether everyday or part of a day to give kids more more different opportunities or different tools. Is that kind of thing. Oh sure they're definitely sensors My daughters do not participate in them for us are censor is our city so we will explore floor. We will explore a museum. We will take a ride and go grocery shopping. That's all a part of our learning experience for us now now. I presumed that were you when you grew up where you unschooled as well or did you go to a typical have typical education experience. I went to a formal normal part of formal education I'm a product of the Philadelphia school system so for me this was definitely groundbreaking and and new to me but the the pedagogy of unscrambling is not. I mean if we're looking at indigenous education this is how young people learned well before there was an institution of compulsory education or brick and mortar spaces. And so why did you decide to go this direction with your daughters well initially. It wasn't something that I knew about and I I was gonna take the typical route and do formal education for my daughters and like many parents. I moved to predominantly I moved to a neighborhood where the catchment will would kind of secure providing quality access to education for my daughters and what that means in many areas. That if you are a person person of color as our family is you many times have to move to a predominantly white area. And that's what we did and I wouldn't because I really wanted to ensure sure this quality education and I did that and when we got up to the school to enroll my oldest daughter It was it was a very difficult moment because because the the principal did not believe that I lived in that area and she asked me for proof of identification and Several things that that word humanizing and oppressive and just marginalizing as a whole and that was really the beginning for me. I see okay. Well so Malaika what would you. How would you respond to a to this question? I'm sure figure out the right way to ask. Maybe I'll just go ahead and ask it I I I can hear that the your daughters have incredible freedom. It's totally self directed and what they want to learn every single day and that's quite inspiring but on the other hand and I'm not risking denying them things by by letting them be so self directed that they might experience in a in a typical school. I can imagine that there are some listeners out there who say who might even go so far saying you're perhaps neglecting them by not giving the giving them the opportunities that come with regular schooling ruling. Well I guess the question becomes what is it that comes with schooling that I would be pulling my young people away from and I would also pose that question back to who an individual who does and their kids school What is it that they're being? What is that what is it that's being neglected on either end There's always he's GonNa be something on both sides but for me Their experiences the idea of choice and freedom not sure why that would be considered something that would be a negative give and they are assisted in guided in all sorts of ways that allow them to experience real time consequences to whatever they engage region There are a part of organizations girls leadership and empowerment organizations where you know the whole. The taboo term of not being socialized is a completely myth at least for our family and their engagement is there. So if if it's about being in a classroom that's over crowded tests Teaching to the test or prison pipeline mythologies than I am happy to remove stories from my daughter. Yeah One more quietly in Pennsylvania. Are you required to report to the state Every year about since your children are all right home and not in a typical school. You're required to sort of give them progress reports on your on your daughter's development or education you have to submit a letter of intent educational object is to the school district Every year and they're they Homeschool students here also have to follow the same standardized testing Families Families can opt out if they wish. That is not something I opt out of and I am anti test but I do understand the realities that are outside of our family and I I feel that my daughter seeing these assessments and with this language is outside of our home is really paramount. So that when they do explore they know what they're walking into so so they do take standardized tests. How they how they done in those tests? Oh they they excel on on all counts My oldest daughter is she's thirteen but based on the testing of she falls it about saw a sophomore junior in high school. Okay well Maliki Digs Exa- joining us today from Philadelphia. She is a mother who unschooled her eleven and thirteen year old daughters and she's also founder of the ECLECTIC learning network. And we're talking this hour about this concept this idea of unscrambling And it's as far from a typical school experience as you could possibly imagine me. Hang on here for just a second because I want to introduce into the conversation. Decision Peter Gray. He is a professor of psychology at Boston. College he's also considered to be one of the intellectual Gurus of the unscrewing movement movement. He's CO founder and President of the nonprofit Alliance for self directed education and author of free to learn. Why unleashing the instinct to play? They will make our children happier more. Self reliant and better students for Life Peter Gray welcome to on point a very happy to be here unscrambling. How long has it been around well? The term was coined In the nineteen seventies by John Holt. Who in some ways as the guru of on schooling I have to say on. Schooling is not my favorite term. Because it's kind of a negative terms it says what you're not doing right and it tends heads to put Other people on the on the defensive Oh you're not doing school. You're not doing what we're doing and instead of saying what you are doing and so I kind of prefer first term self directed education so that that's why we call ourselves the Alliance for self directed education. So it's not that we're we don't believe in education right. We believe in education. We just think it works best when children take charge of their education. And the other reason that I don't use the term on on schooling For in my own writing So much is because self directed education can occur in a school like Seta So oh there are schools for self directed education. They're not schools that give tasks or that have a curriculum their schools where there's all kinds kinds of opportunity for learning interacting with other kids. They're adults to help me if you've gotta ask adults to help you. But they're not GONNA they're not gonNA come to. Oh you and say it's time for you to do this or that. You have to go to them and so much of my research has been that kind of setting. Well I WanNa talk with you and me more about that when when we come back. I'm going to stick with unschooled because that's how we're framing this hour. We're talking about the unscrambling movement to or self directed education as we. I just heard Peter Grace say and what an education looks like when children are one hundred percent in control of that where the positives were the potential drawbacks. I make Talker Bardy. This is on point. We're wrapping up twenty nineteen on pop culture happy hour by looking at everything we saw and heard this year and choosing just fifteen favorite different. Things could be a song a moment a movie. Anything we think is the best of the best of the year here are picks on pop culture happy hour from NPR. This is on point. I magnitude party. Were talking about the schooling movement or the totally or allowing kids to be one hundred percent self directed directed in what they learn and how they learn it. And I'm joined today by Maliki digs. She's a mother who on schools eleven and thirteen year old daughter. She's founder of ECLECTIC click learning network. And she's doing today from Philadelphia also with us as Peter Gray. He is a professor of psychology at Boston. College Co Founder and President of the nonprofit Alliance for self directed education and the author of free to learn. Now Peter Gray. I still have some sort of basic questions about how on schooling or self directed learning really works because it seems as if it requires or perhaps its success is based on how self directed a child is and I'm wondering what about all those kids. Who if they are really given the choice to do anything they want all day long would just opt to turn on the TV and sit there for eight hours right? Well you know the kids that we see who Sit There for eight hours turning on the TV are are largely kids who are going to public school. They're coming home and sitting and watching. TV right so this issue of self directed. What is it being to be self directed directed I I'm an evolutionary psychologist. So I'm interested in human nature. The nature of children look at little little kids. Have you ever seen a little kid. Who hasn't yet gone to school? WHO's not self directed who's not just curious and playful and eagerly hey doing things they're exploring the world almost from the moment they're bored they're looking around? What's out there? What's new? What can I learn about think of all all the things that children learn before they ever go to school and this is not this is not just some children that learn it? This is essentially all the children. They learn their native language. It from scratch they learn an enormous amount about the physical world around them and the social world around them. So unscrambling is this. What if we just select them continue to do that instead of put them away where their own questions? Don't count anymore where their own play. Hey is considered at best recess which is increasingly being taken away rather than a way of learning where socialization is almost cut off. Because they're not really allowed to talk to one another to cooperate people talk about socialization being missing if you're not going to school what kind of socialization and truly as occurring there so we send them to school and then we wonder why they're no longer self-motivated right. Because we've we've taken away. The basic motives for learning curiosity playfulness the ability for me to something here for a second. I thought I had read. Read the quote from you Perhaps actually in the Boston Globe piece. Where haven't you said before that you believe that really basically all all kids should be made to learn is to learn how to read and and maybe some Some arithmetic and leave the rest of it up to them. You know this was a misquote. Okay I tried to get them to change that and I sent a correction that was published two weeks later. That was a complete misquote. One of my own research has shown that children holdren learn to read without direct instruction when they are allowed to learn to read in their own ways at the time that they're motivated to do it they may ask for some help but nothing like the kind of destruction and I have yet to see a child who's been self directed education who has an eventually actually learn to read. They learn to read a very different ages. Well so here's why I'm asking that question because if we're leaving One hundred percent of what a child learns up up to that kid. Don't we take the very grave risks that they're going to choose things it might while it might fulfill them It isn't the entire suite of what they need need to be successful happy citizens of the modern world. I'm thinking what if a kid doesn't. We can make an argument that they're not learning these things in school right now but I'm GonNa set that aside but what if they don't want to learn things like civics or how government works or they don't want to learn about history or they don't want to learn about You know financial issues etc.. All things that I would argue are really really important. to to living in the modern world aren't we sort of setting them back by not giving them at least the opening the door to these things to them. Well you know peop- if we make make people learn things if we if we require them to learn things the first question is are they really learning it are they learning at in a way that is meaningful that stays is with them. So let's take civics for example so in schools we deprive children of all their civil rights. Literally we deprive pry them of their civil rights and then we lecture to them about civics is that a real civics lesson or as a better civics lesson to say. Hey you're you're grown up in a democracy you're growing up in a world where you are responsible for your own life you are also responsible for other people you you. You are also free to choose your own path in happiness. Isn't that a better civics lesson than a lecture on it you you are living it in. What though that that you'll have ultimate than total freedom for your entire life which is not true? We all have to live in a society back but you know something yes. We do have to live in a society and children who are growing up in charge of their own lives are experiencing what it it is to live in a society. They are learning how to live in a society and it's also not the case that there. Nobody is totally free. Nobody can do things that break. The the law you know there are many many students who are in self directed. Education are going to learning centers or schools learning and they make rules. They make the rules democratically. There are lots of rules. You can't litter you can. If you take out toys you have to put him away. You can't their rules against bullying and so forth but they are democratically made rules and isn't that a better civics lesson Maliki digs. You've been patiently listening here and I WANNA get your view. What what's your response to my question? I can hear that. Perhaps we're we're at risk of not introducing important lessons or or subjects to children if they're totally self directed. Well I'm for me. I I question what the word introduced me so in in this context because introducing if I'm looking at it from a school perspective there there's indoctrination that comes from that and for me as a self directed and schooling parent. We can introduce but there is no indoctrination. There is no forced to take that on. So you know the idea that these things will not be introduced or seen or felt is something that I don't necessarily surly agree with. We could go to the Amusement Park Nets physics at its best happening in motion for them to experience what that is for them when they're already and whether politics all of these things are very much important but that happens at the playground There's issues of race. I happen everywhere we go. That is not something that is specific to going to a traditional schooling setting. That's everywhere so my daughters are huge into making sure or that. Their identity is affirmed everywhere that they go and they also participate in actions that create inclusion and diversity and equity so that has nothing to do with school well Malaysia. And Peter. You can imagine that we have a lot of guys who want to join us so let me just get a couple of them in here. Let's go to Alex. Alex calling from Big Sky Montana. Alex you're on the air. Hi thank you so much for taking my call. Great Conversation Today You know I just WanNa say hey that I am thirty eight years old. I was raised in the Massachusetts Public School System. In my parents absolutely practice. Something very similar to this unscrewing or perhaps Free range parenting. And certainly they didn't call it that but the ethos with very similar You know they would pull me out of class to go to a museum. Go see a movie. Go see family or friends. If I was in a class and had completed my work early or just in feeling gauged with the lesson lesson of the day they would Have moved over to another class and on some occasions even take me to another school across town to do something over there and you know I. I can attest that it absolutely bread. A sense of curiosity playfulness. That is with me to this day. But there's a double edged sword that I think Anyone should really consider if they are thinking about pursuing the style of parenting with their own children and that is You know in the career front. I have just bounced around so much Chad Work in agriculture and aquaculture. I've worked in the record industry. I've dabbled in journalism. I worked as a companion to People with mental health issues all manner of odd jobs carpentry landscaping. What have you and you know? I'll hear comments sometimes at a cocktail party or something thing like. Wow you've done all the stuff you've the country you traveled around the world and you know it feels great and I feel great to have this sense of curiosity and playfulness. I'm hearing a the button. Come on yeah. There's a really big but you know trying trying to explain a patchwork resume to a recruiter is really difficult. Occult and I guess yeah I guess I would just say that anyone who was really thinking of raising their children in this environment you have to temperate with some sort of long tournaments and about Stick to miss about working through something that maybe doesn't interest you engage you understanding that the job you want want may come down the line you may have to do a few jobs within an organization to get some structures some focus yes structure focus this determination. Well stick to it and this is what you said Alex. Thank you so much for your call. Peter would you like to respond to that Alex. Thank you for that I I'm by nature skeptic. I didn't come into this area believing in it necessarily I wanted. I I My conclusions solutions are based on research. So I have done several long term studies of people who have Done self directed education. The I study was graduates of the Sudbury Valley school which self directed education but more recently a study of ground on schoolers. So these are people who grew grew up. UNSCHOOLED didn't go to the home. School like Maleek says kids And I've asked them about their careers about their life. Did they go on to higher education and saw and so forth and all in all they have done remarkably well Those who've wanted to go onto higher education haven't had any difficulty doing it They somehow get into the college that they want to get into and then do well there. many any of them have gone on into careers that involve passionate interest that they developed in childhood through their own in play an exploration. Something that kids in typical schools don't have much time to do so they've developed real interests and then they've pursued those those interests as career did your longitudinal studies will track or find People for whom it didn't work on schooling didn't work because they needed more structure around in in this particular study there were seventy five Adults involved who had been in school in response to our question bastion of All in all. Are you glad that you were unschooled or would have been better. There were three who would have preferred to have been schooled in all three. Three of them came from what I would call. Dysfunctional families They described Having a mother who is depressed and felt felt that they were being kept home largely take care of their mother they were all women. All of the others said that they were very happy that they'd been on school they would unschooled their own children And and those who had children were in fact on schooling their own. Well you know a Malaika and Peter. I WANNA get one more voice in here joining us now from Madison. Wisconsin is Michael Apple. He's a professor of curriculum and Instruction and Educational Policy Studies at the University of Wisconsin Madison. Listen he studied and written about homeschooling extensively. Michael Apple Welcome to you harmon notes Good to be on point. It's great to have you You know a Thus far in this conversation it sounds like On schooling is this a educational ideal that we should all be aiming for. But I I suppose I'm a part of me is still resisting the notion that it can be so simple. I mean wh wh what's your take on this is self entirely self directed learning indirection. All kids should be allowed to go first. Let me say that I have sympathy of what Especially is trying to do. And I have respect for Peter's eaters work as well but I think that it's actually. It's only a small percent of home schoolers that are doing this and the research on it. It's actually quite limited mostly limited to middle class people And we have to remember as well that if you're going to go into this you need to be fully dedicated and the vast S. majority of parents are working two jobs They're being Not just unschooled but de skilled in terms of incomes with with incomes falling within minority communities. And because of this. I am a little more skeptical about whether this model I would like most people to follow And I must admit as a parent of an African American child myself. I am not a romantic about what goes on and I have again a good deal of sympathy but Monica is struggling thing to do and I think successfully but to me the issue is what we do collectively. The vast majority of children in the United States will never see a self directed learning program or an unschooled program. They will go to regular public schools. which by the way? We're victories. Not only defeats African American. Latino and indigenous people were forbidden from going to school. So let's remember that the school is the last truly public institution everything else is being privatized and there's massive attacks on teachers and schools turning them into voucher plans and for profit schools and to the extent that the unscrewing movement grows it. It actually unfortunately and certainly not consciously on the part of its participants it contributes to the attacks on teachers and schools and it will lead to defunding defunding of public schools. which will be a disaster for many many more children who then we'll see and on schooling the Michael Apple something because earlier in the hour repeater gray said we could have more self directed learning in regular schools here? And that's what I really want to ask. I want your take on because because it seems to me that We we have a lot of schools moving in the opposite direction that the education is more controlled disciplined more disciplined as a more foundation. It's a foundational aspect effective. What a child experiences? Every day I mean Malaika talked earlier about the prison to school the school to prison pipeline. That children are given less and less and less choice even though as parents. We naturally see that when they're given more choice they're happier. They're more engaged. Why can't we have at least some more project? BASED PASSION CASH ORIENTED SELF directed learning in regular public schools. I agree totally with that position. And it's one of the reasons why to me. The alternative is is not to denigrate on schooling. But to refocus our the question into what you're saying which is where are the places where there's been lasting transformations formations of real public schools. So there's a group in Milwaukee that is now national nationwide and now international called rethinking schools which is taken that issue issue and tried to run with it. It's got parents teachers kids writing for it. academics occasionally writing for it and also building schools that are much more more responsive to religious differences to to fight against the racial ization in school and certainly to fight against the over testing an in court. Michael Apple Standby for second because we have to take a quick break. We're speaking about the UNSCREWING movement. And what that means when a child is allowed to be one hundred hundred percent one hundred percent self directed in what they learn and how they learn it. Michael Apple joins us. He's a professor. At the University of Wisconsin. Madison Maliki digs is also also with us. She's founder of ECLECTIC learning network and Peter. Gray joins us as well. He's a Boston College. psychology professor and Co founder of the nonprofit Alliance for or self directed education. We'll be right back. I magnin trucker Birdie. This is on points on Sheila's phone is supposed to ask questions but but when she starts asking it questions it sends her poetry secret dwelling place mysteries held in the time other planned. What happens when you treat artificial intelligence with love on the new episode from NPR? This is on point. I make Meghna trucker Bharti. We're talking this hour about the unscrewing movement. And I'm joined by Maliki Digs Peter Gray and Michael Apple and I should let the three of you know that the comments and calls her all Pouring in we pick these topics that we should talk about for two to three hours at a time. But but we've got some pushback coming in online for example. Joe Oh American Sent us this tweet saying this. Sounds like another progressive concept that will result in deficiencies in knowledge a greater dependency on government. Just more collectivism them packaged as social improvement on our website. On Point Radio DOT ORG. Kathy says Kathy. This isn't a response a response to something. You said Malaika Kathy saying no an amusement park is not physics. Physics is the math and process that results in a safe and exciting amusement park ride. Kathy thinks this sounds just like whoo nonsense maluco. Would you like to respond to that. I mean for Kathy. Then that's that's her position and I totally we respect that For me I see differently. And that's that's what makes us unique and the biggest the biggest thing about this about exploring flooring what learning is is the liberation of being indoctrinated into a system that wasn't built for a person like myself it was not built for for me to truly explore and be innovative and look at this as an opportunity to really shine. And that's what I'm allowing my children to do whether it has has an effect that may be viewed as negative or not. That's you know how anyone feels is. None of my business is pretty much model. I follow so as much as I appreciate. Appreciate her perspective That's that's what works for us and my children are learning and growing and thriving so it doesn't matter to me and they also have another comment here facebook Jennifer Russell says formal school doesn't teach children socialization Jennifer says. It teaches them institutionalization. Let's go to Stephen Who's calling from Florence South Carolina Steven. You're on the air. Thank you very much my questions. I hope aren't too simplistic but if you could could tell me. What sort of things should I look for in my child to see if he's a good candidate for this type of learning? At what age should it begin. And what sort of parameters or boundaries are needed if we go into this sort of in educational Process Stephen First of all. I'm GonNa tell you there is no such thing on this program as overly simplistic question especially when we're talking about education so I actually thank you very much for your call. Peter Gray. Do you have some answers for Stephen. The question well when to begin it begins at birth. You can't stop it from beginning. Birth children are beginning to self educate. As soon as they're bored they're learning constantly. There caused learning so one of the questions that I've been interested in my own research is there. Are there some children who are more cut out for self directed education than for others and and this many people think well some people are sort of self motivated. They can take control of their own life and so on. My experience has been that little children under all self motivated and that doesn't end if we allow to continue it does not end if we allow it to continue. I think the I think the important shorten thing to ask for. Anybody who wants to take this route is am I capable of trusting my child. Am I capable edible of allowing my child to learn what my child wants to learn. Even if it's not what I think. My child should be learning at this point point. You have to give up a certain amount of sense of control now. The truth of the matter is in my heart and the hazards described. Have to give up a certain certain amount of sense of control. You have to trust the nature of children. I have learned over the years to do that because of my research. Search that just because of my own experience with my own child but because of my research with many children and because of my research into the history of humanity throughout almost all of human history children always self educated. We'd never had schools. We never had as so children come into the world burning to educate themselves. We can't stop them from unless we lock them away in closets and so. But here's what we have to understand. We we are now living in a world where there's way more knowledge out there than any of US could possibly learn and who's to decide what's what's most important for any given child. Don't we want people to grow up learning different aspects of that knowledge. Why should everybody? Eddie learned the same little slice of all the knowledge and skills and information that schools have decided. This is the slice. Everybody everybody should learn. Yeah you have to trust your child. Your child may not study physics. Maybe your child will study art history or whatever else maybe would never career general's job I mean isn't that yes. Your child will have a job and the reason your child will have a job is because because your child has learned to take control of his or her own life. My what my research shows. Is that the graduates of self directed. Education are doing very well in adult life. They're not having difficulty getting jobs. Let me get respond to your Michael Apple. What do you think well I I appreciate it? It's been said that I'm GonNa ask what are the characteristics of the children but if the parents do we really want a society in which we say that children ars simply the property of their parents. When there's a growing movement in the United States for instance of anti-semitism of Anti you know clearly racist kinds of things and I don't want to Romanticize parents at all. I want to be very cautious about this because again I think parents have an ethical responsibility to be the best that they can for their children. But I do think we want to look around us right now and ask very serious. These questions about what is being taught. Are there any end limits. Are We romanticizing the situations That that we're putting parents in so that's my first my first response. The second is We have to ask. Do we want Simply to have a society the in which children are simply seen an parents having no responsibility whatsoever for the larger society. What can we do to make more certain that the vast majority of children who will go to public schools actually yet the kind of education that has many leave the characteristics? That movie Ken to Your Right. Well Michael Let me let Peter. Graham Melita respond to that. But Peter go ahead I. I think that's a wonderful point Michael that you've made and it's something something that I've given a lot of thought to concern to let me be clear. I do not think that home based on schooling is the solution. Listen to our national educational problem. I think it's a great solution for many many families. It's clearly a great solution. As far as I can tell for for me and her daughters is clearly a great solution for the many families that I have studied. It works very well for them and it works very well for their children. But I don't think it's the solution for everybody. I think is probably even a minority of parents. Who should be doing this but what is happening and what is going to be eventually? The educational solution is we're developing more and more learning centers and schools calls for self directed. Education is not happening within the public school system because the public school system has too many constraints you can move a certain direct a certain certain amount in a progressive direction. But then there's always the pushback to go back and the other way ever since schools have become compulsory. We've had progressive educators trying to push it one way and that gets pushed back the other way it's happening outside of the public school system but it's happening in a way that it could eventually become affordable to everybody and I would love to see public support for this right now. The Alliance for self directed education is trying to bring public support for centers centers for self directed education. So that children can be away from their parents. They could be in a center where they have to learn the kind of community skills how to make AAC rules how to live by rules how to get along with people who are different tribune have different ideas from yours. Different ideas from your parents. I think this is all part of education very very important part of education but it's not incompatible with self directed Education Maliki digs. LemMe just dovetail Michael. Apple's basic question with a comment that we've received moved from Someone's calling themselves TAC TAC driver. Who says that externally imposed curricula are important to the preservation of shared culture? That for the sake of our nation Shen all students should master a common set of basic intellectual tools and therefore values. I mean that gets to sort of what Michael was saying. Are we at the Risk of idealising the capabilities or even the objectives of some parents who want who are engaging in something something as radical seemingly radical on schooling one is not radical in my opinion I feel like this has been don well. Before as I stated earlier before this idea of compulsory education even came into deal Also when it when it comes to the parents that for me is my biggest focus I agree with both Michael and Peter and when you take this journey of course you want the best things for your young people. Of course you want them to thrive in shine in the best environment possible but you have to include yourself in that equation of learning and and if you're looking at a pedagogy or method that is outside of your own awareness. You have to take a moment to really look at how you've been conditioned to learning and what that that impact is going to be on your young people if I carried all of my formal education Conditioning with me. Which I definitely did in the beginning? This was not some easy transition that I went through. This is a constant state of deconditioning myself from formalized education the idea to allow my children the time and space to say. Maybe it doesn't have to be Sola near maybe I can explored in this way and still come to some type of conclusion for me. Mastery that for me is a lifelong endeavor so to sit here and say well in the fifth grade you need the master X Y and Z. There are plenty of things that I was was introduced to in brick and mortar school. It might earlier years that in no way I retained either because the presentation was not connected well to how I learned and I did not engage but over the years that changed so for me one the parent and where they are there has to be some self discovery. That's in in their some time to observe your own children and yourself in these spaces to be able to define what the next moves are going to be not a cookie cutouts. Well you know what I have been neglecting our callers. So let me at least let one or two of them in before we run out of time. So let's go to ellen WHO's calling from Binghamton New York Ellen. You're on the air. Hi I just wanted to say that kids growing up this way do not live in a vacuum. So they're exposed to neighbors and friends and an and other people in the homeschooling community and simpler so our kids grew up on schooling. We called it life schooling and They're thirty eighty three in twenty nine now. One looks at an Ivy League school and one middle manager at a at a very well known company and They they they interned with neighbors and friends going to work they. They participated in classes that they they wanted to do when they were Young Middle Teenagers. They took a programming class at At a local college so they had a lot of opportunities and diverse diverse experiences. You're saying Alan yes. But they're not they're not in like a cocoon like as they get together with other people core Anthony Books or watch. TV they're exposed to CSI or or or The neighbor that does engineering hiring. Well what is that and they wanna know more and what took us to this is exactly what one of your guests that we saw the nature of the two year old where learning is the greatest game in the world and we didn't want it to stop and it didn't Right Ellen. Thank you so so much for your call Michael Apple let me turn back to you because there's something that's come up once or twice what had WANNA get wanted to talk about it a little bit more that as this right now in this moment You know barring the change that Peter Gray wants to see it feels as if unscrambling or self directed learning really really advanced advantages families. Who can afford it right? I mean we just had our caller said that her kids were able to take programming classes etc.. Ideally these are. This is one thing that public school is supposed to provide. It's supposed to be the great equalizer so that these opportunities aren't only for the affluent or those who can afford it that kids any level if they wanted to learn programming could get those things in a school setting sure well. I think that people are responding to. We're very religious. We live in a society that is more segregated now than it was when we were like South Africa when we had basically Jim crow rules in many parts of the United States so again we shouldn romanticize what's going on but at the same time there's no doubt I think that What we want to see is schools that are responsive multicultural powerfully anti-racist and also provide? Oh I'd spacious for students to self direct and. I don't think that's going to happen by individual parents leaving schools but we do know and it's robust research on. This is that social movements with parents community activists educators administrators and progressive members of the business community together other push schools in particular directions. And I worry when I hear all these stereotypes about public schools An example would be something like this these poor children who go to public schools and then come home and watch. TV for eight hours. I have very very little experience. Have seen gene and I want to. I want to be very very cautious. We can't control the uses to which movements such as unschooled in your self directed learning or even home. homeschooling can be put right now. We're in a situation where there are so many attacks on anything that is called public that if individual parents masses of them withdraw from public schools. We can predict with about one hundred percent certainty that we will see. Even more the problems in public schools and Peter are accurately portray. Well we've just got thirty seconds to go here and I should underscore that at this point in time as we said earlier in the hour justice does tiny fraction of people. Who are actually doing this? But the Peter Gray policies that we have about thirty seconds. But your last thought today first of all I'm just delighted to have been on the program with these other people Great ideas this is Let me just give a little statistics at the end about the growth. Savan schooling that as a matter of fact On schooling is growing and at and homeschooling has been growing but with in-home in home approximately three and a half percent of American school. Children are currently being home schooled and Something like twenty percent of them are now being unschooled so this is a large number in his groin. Well Peter Maliki digs and Michael Apple. Thank you all so much for joining us. Today we did a lot of learning. I make Chakrabarti. This is on point.

Peter Gray Michael Apple Peter Gray US founder Malaika Kathy Boston NPR Maliki Philadelphia Boston Globe magazine mortar school Madison Maliki Stephen Who professor of psychology professor twitter Alex Maliki Peter
A major pro of Homeschooling is being creative and considerate

The Homeschooling and Liberty Podcast

28:23 min | Last month

A major pro of Homeschooling is being creative and considerate

"Hello good morning and welcome. My name is graham. And i'm delighted to be with you all today as we start these journeys into asking what it is to be really free free from constraints and conformity free from constant testing and peer pressure and free from unsafe and uninspiring school environments. Free to let children explore the world around them through play cooperation and inspiration free to let children learn naturally following their eight curiosity and then this creativity recounted that learning isn't about going well at school. It's about engaging with you you. And i will carry you miss around as we continue to live in truth. Many of us has faced. Unrelenting fee is over the last year that have and continue to test the very essence of our being as parents. It could be said that having the innocence and curious nature of a child to reflect upon in these challenging times can make the outside traumas thirty of our attention yet clearly they cannot be ignored when infecting so many parts of our daily lives. We are reminded that the path of life can be winding and we are not promised anything in our time here as listeners to the show us parents awake to the idea of freedom and setting life course for our children to live in creativity and joy. We can seem odds against the unrelenting fear and control seen in so many families today that is why it is fitting and a pleasure to have our guest today. Shine lights on the very fundamental ingredients needed. When pursuing a life of truth harmony and liberty that is the value found involuntary noncoercive ways of living. Today we welcome schuyler collins the man behind the website everything. Voluntary which expands all ideas of constructing voluntary society that will ultimately lead to a peaceful and prosperous world. We are also longing for scarlet. Takes us through his journey of realization of changing his parenting style of punishments and rewards to building family relationships of peaceful respect for voluntary injury actions. We see how children's automatic response is becoming autonomous critical thinking individuals with a sense of self direction and self reliance so much needed in today's road. This is our time to change course of the overreaching and never ending control. Systems offered today with threats of violence if we dare to us questions and make decisions for ourselves based on personal responsibility and local community outlooks so please stay strong and stand shore and if he can share these philosophies with any questioning how society has become this maze of fear and distrust. And what we can do to raise the next generation of self-governing thoughtful and free human beings. Thank you for listening. So into the show shallow. How you doing today turn very well. Thank you so much for inviting me on. We just like to start off by asking our guests if amy at parents looking for alternatives to the current school system. They might not completely happy with that. Just looking back on your own experience. How'd you look back at. That was mixture of positives and negatives. And what's most useful things you find us today. Well probably you know the the skills. I learned early on reading writing arithmetic. Probably i mean a the skills that i used today. You know especially in the as far as my job is concerned are skills that i taught myself really outside of school in a lot of that has to do with computers. Computers were not really a part of my schooling back. You know late late eighties through the nineties. I mean once in a while we got away from the classroom and got to go into the computer lab and play games like oregon trail you know but that was that was very minimal thing and so when we got our first computer i was about. I think i was about maybe twelve years old. You know. that's where the auto data to them in myself really sort of lawsom than a explored it. I broke it a few got in trouble for that but really just was able to figure a lot of stuff out and that's served me very well as far as my schooling experience you know. The the best years were probably the earliest years I think you know preschool kindergarten. First grade second grade and then at some point you know it. It became less of a place i cared to be. I'm particularly through middle school and high school out. We're not very good years for me. It became a chore. It became you know me having to go and do things. I had no interest in and having to you know. Take up a lot of my time with homework. Testing turning things in you know your standards. You know what what school expects of you and it really It just was something. I looked less and less four to every day and every year And my focus. My interests were definitely outside of school with with other things going on. I mean especially as i learned to drive became interested in cars and kind of you know explored that sort of thing and schooling really. I mean i any any opportunity i could. I could take to where. I could structure my day around things that interesting such as computer classes in this and that i would i would do that but even those were well well beneath where i was at you know skill wise and and so they really just became easy grades from a and the really wasn't any challenge there and i guess you know being able to meet people make friends. I guess that's probably one of the positive aspects. But you know i don't. I don't see how schools really required from that. Is just sort of a circumstantial thing i guess. But she'll she'll and you've unschooled your children from from the obsolete beginning or if they have had any Attendance in public schools. Yeah my my son is my oldest is twelve now. When he was six we did put him in a preschool that took place at the local elementary school. And he he did that for a year and then it was over that next summer that i had discovered some new parenting practices and kinda did a one eight pm on what we're doing in the home in regards to that and there discovered you know the the schooling world and there's a little bit of a processor that we can get into but so he ended up going to. He was accepted into a dual immersion program with english. Spanish and spanish is actually his first language. My wife is from mexico and so the spanish but we always spoke to our babies in the nasdaq up. Eight adopted both languages and so being in a dual immersion. Kind of helping to keep that. Was you know it was. It was an interest of ours at the time so he was accepted into that and he went to for a week and then we went on family vacation and it was kind of during that time that my wife and i decided to give them the option of either staying home and we would go on this on schooling journey or he could go back and you know so. We posed the question to him. Left it up to him and he goes to stay home. And and that's that's what started that. Do you remember any of the reasons he gave last time. Yeah he was over that summer that he started to learn how to use the computer to play games like minecraft and roadblocks in some of these things. So i think the prospect of being able to explore that as much as he wanted instead of going to school and sitting down and i think it was a real big part of that poll to stay home knowing that he would he would have unfettered access to that sort of thing drawing right and going back to your decisions to on school or your immersion in the whole world of the philosophies is there any place you remember you started. Anyone in particular really grabbed your attention. Yes certainly it i. I would say that that. That leg of of my philosophical journey that i'd been on over the last fifteen years Started when a friend of mine introduced me to a book by alfie. Kohn titled the unconditional earth's gives me titled unconditional parenting and. It was that book that was instrumental in getting me to to Look at how. I was raising my kids and at the time i was i was raising the particularly my son. I mean my daughter was only about one or two so she was just an incident coming into toddler. Hurt but with my son was very Authoritarian at times and then playful at other times. That's just my personalities playful but i was raised authoritarian so that you know when when you know toddlers and growing children's start to cause frustrations in parents as as as they do you know how you were raised sorta starts to come to the surface and those are the rules you reach for. So as reaching for timeout so's reaching for spankings and reaching Just yelling and raging. And and i didn't i didn't like that and it was actually kind of incite me. It was. It was in conflict with some other principles that i held so when i when my friend introduced me to alfie kohn and i i read that and he also had a dvd presentation that he gave. I guess to a group of parents on the on the book as well and so we bought that my wife and i watched that together We read the book together. And that's you know just the practical arguments that he gave against these authoritarian and punitive tools is really what changed my mind and so now going forward you know like i said it was one eighty. We weren't doing that anymore. And you know we were looking for you know other other tools to help us in that regard So i think doing that was a very beneficial thing and it. Was you know now that we were in this mindset of not using punishments and not using rewards we came up against the idea of schooling which you know a big component of that is you know threatening punishments and promising rewards. I mean so you know. We're doing where we made this change at home or doing things differently and now we're going to send him to a place that's going to go back to the old way and and so that conflict is is really what got me looking at alternatives to You know the schooling system. Roy and i know everyone can definitely go to your website. Everything voluntary dot com. There's a whole host of articles from such great authors. Was that was that a natural progression as you continue. Join school journey. You felt that that was needed just to have one place to put all this together. Yeah exactly it was. It was really after that time that i decided to embrace peaceful parenting Which is not authoritarian approach to raising kids. It's kind of peaceful parenting. I mean. I guess there's some other names for respectful parenting As well as the schooling. That i decided that you know that together with my political and economic views really kinda makes it all all into one complete picture Around this idea of what's called the voluntary principle so i. That's when i decided. No i wanna make a website. I want to have resources for all these things from the apparent in the schooling to to the economics and the politics the philosophy side and just have sort of a central location where people can be introduced to this and if there's somebody coming from the philosophical political side than they'll be introduced to the parenting vice versa. He's coming from the parents you going. You know maybe they'll get a little bit of The philosophy and politics. Yes not that stephanie. Subjects you go into site thoroughly on the website and parents don't see the the correlation indeed needs to understand how we educate and raise. Our children is is so entwined with philosophy of the of the voluntary principle if if no one's ever heard of this all too familiar with the term could you just go into more detail for us. Yes absolutely the voluntary principle is very simple. It's it's the idea that all human relations should happen voluntarily and by voluntarily that means by mutual consent now. The voluntary principle has applications in all sorts of things like i said it has applications in the political realm and how organized society it has application in the economic realms and how we allow businesses to and trade and exchange to take place and it has implications in the parenting realm as far as how. We're raising our children. And i think that win. The voluntary principle is violated when people are using coercion and aggression towards towards each other. That's where you start to see problems in society particularly when these when this principle is violated in how we're raising our children. I think that when children are raised in authoritarian environment Whether that's you know hands off or if if it includes spanking that tends to create trauma and trauma crates broken. People and broken people are much more likely to use violence and aggression to meet their needs as they get older than people who did not suffer those things and so i think it's extremely important that the voluntary principle is observed in practice in all realms of life. Right right yes. Oh so true. Ring so true. I just wonder when you made that. Change with your your son's upbringing wizar- a change in him do any rebellion when he suddenly could have all this freedom that he pops didn't have before. No i don't think so. I mean he's his personality rise. I mean he's a he's a fairly playful person. He's he's hasn't really. I mean. of course there are times where we disagree on things in it becomes sort of either negotiation or frustration. The other side and it's just a matter of sort of trying to avoid getting angry and and instead listen to one another and just really talk about and that's that's really how we do things now and so as far as any sword of rebellion. Two things Now i i really didn't see much of that. I mean it was you know. Of course he was totally happy for me not to be putting him in time outer spanking him anymore. So you know. I i don't. I don't think that there's really been an issue with that. Okay and maybe somebody who's are aware of unsettling philosophies on your website and understand you do practices if the idea of radical schooling so just wonder if you could give us more of an idea of how that looks in day to day life to to have any curriculums you follow all there any kind of objective settle. How do you sort of see your date. Stay short yeah so when it really the difference between homeschooling and schooling is is a matter of you know I guess you could say parents. created structure in in the you know what activities their kids are doing and whatnot on schooling. Really kind of freeze that up. And if a child you know really want structure once the parent to to to create structure. Then that's fine. it's not. It's not against the rule so to speak and there are children. I know people that are that way. And they really thrive in instructor versus not not having such a clear direction and things that they want to do. radical in schooling really takes the principles of unsettling To a different level now level being other things that go on in the child's life such as at times you know what food he eats other areas where he has Ability to make a choice over what he does or what happens to him. So it's not just concerned with the academic so to speak. It's really just everything that they do. Applying the principles of unscrambling which are interest based letting the child lead helping them understand You know what the consequences of our of whatever choice you happen to make but still allowing them with with you being there to shield them to some extent to the bad consequences And letting the make those choices and learn from that. You know really allow them to do that. Not just academics. But with all areas of their life is kind of what i would say schooling as compared to just on schooling where maybe the parents still does exercise some some controller some some authority over bed times mealtimes what they eat when they eat it how much they eat. You know that sort of thing roy. And that summoned the you'll you'll children of a full into naturally. They've never i think a lot of parents listening might think well if you don't have guidelines of what your kids eat they're gonna have a terrible diet but we. We had dr to ricky on the on the show and he he explains it does exactly that to his daughters who have a more balanced and he does his arm new. See with your children as well. Yeah their diet certainly balanced and they're they you know we don't control how much candidate how much ice cream they eat. We don't control any of the And you know. I don't i don't know if we're just an exception to the rule i don't think so but they don't ever go wild with facts. Have halloween just happened. They got a bunch of candy. They ended up selling half of it. Who needed candy for her own trick or treaters they trunk retreats a few days prior so they had a ton of candy before halloween so she they sold off to her than the rest is sitting there and they may be pick one or two pieces a day every year over the last five years we end up throwing away most of it because we we don't restrict it There aren't other areas of the life their lives that they're trying to escape from and so they don't go crazy within as far as the rest of their diet. I guess our only concern right now and and it it. It might not even be a rational concern is that it doesn't seem like they're eating enough. That are very skinny. And it's just one of those things where it's like you know. We wonder if they're eating enough. They have a lot of energy. They're very happy. So i i think we're okay and they just don't really have the appetites i you know and i don't know if just not really you know being out forced feeders so to speak has contributed to that or not. But yeah. that's where it is. I mean there are times where they tell us. They're hungry than they end up eating a you know a lot and then other times where they're just not hungry and they don't eat so it's it's interesting it's not. It's not really an issue. But i think it's it's not an issue because as parents we've just step back and said we're not gonna push them and force them to eat and that sort of thing which is which is what you see everywhere. Yeah absolutely is the same for bedtime. Is that kind of just organically happens where they just put themselves to bed. Yeah we have kind of an interesting lifestyle right now where we do rent out our primary residence through airbnb and so we're not. We're not there too often. And even when we are. We've we've kind of done the the single bedroom bed sharing type of Practice and so we were always you know we've for the last probably five six years. We've kind of done that. And so we we watch a couple of shows together as a family you know around you know we try to start around eight thirty in the evening And you know we watch shows that everybody likes so it's you know there's that intrinsic paul to come do that with us if somebody was really into something and they didn't want to leave it then we be okay with that. We try to watch his show that they maybe don't like as much they don't care if they miss an episode but we'll we'll do that will spend an hour an hour and a half watching some shows together and then we just go downstairs. Get ready for bed redistribute and we just we just go to bed together. That's just kind of how it's it's always been now. There are times where You know when one of my kids will have a friend sleepover and they'll just stay upstairs and be able to do whatever as long as they're quiet. They can stay up as long as they want. You know either either game or watch. Tv or or whatever it is and then go to bed on their own so and sometimes they do that together anyway. So if the family wants doctrine these principles from from very beginning to think you might be hard for kids to to adjust to that horse. Some in just maybe a transitional and then the kids would learn. Okay now now. I need to put myself to bed. I think the difficulty would be more on the parents side on the children's side. I think you know. At least. I remember growing up and i i see in my nephews. Whenever you know apparent comes comes saying you know. It's bedtime. You need to put that stuff away and get ready for bed. The kids always kind of opposed to the other let. It's only because either involved with something or they just do not feeling tired and they don't want to do it but since you have to get absorb for school they have to do it so you know. i think. I think the children would be would be fine. I don't think it would be difficult for them to to not be forced to go to bed early. The parents may have more the challenge as far as You know when when they do need things quiet. How can we negotiate with their kids and help them understand that And make sure that we won't be disturbance or things. I think the i think the real challenge would be on the side of the parents. Not so much for the kids. Yeah yeah that makes sense. I see well. that's great. I was wondering just to to to end. If you've got any advice for parents to be looking for alternatives and they might have started this journey they might have. Some fears or their family and friends might be doubtful. This is a realistic way to to to live and just more overwhelmed. But it's Hearing how hormone your family life sounds. It's yes really inspirational. Just wanna be any advice. The parents looking for alternatives. Well i would say You've got to two things. And doesn't i don't know maybe for some people. That order makes a difference but for me it was you know i came to an understanding of the principles first and then i sought the experience in terms of meeting other schoolers. Meeting families meeting kids. Meeting adults were raised. This way and sort of you know getting comfortable about the idea or you could flip that around and just go out there. Find groups in your area go to go to the meet. Ups talk to the parents of the kids. Talk to the kids. you know. there's there's plenty of ways to find schooling on schools. Who are either in the thick of it or were raised this way and really kind of get their experience from them and just really understand it from that personal level and then maybe after that you read some stuff in. There's any number of things that could recommend in that regard. Yeah that'd be great if you could just give us a couple of recommendations absolutely On the parenting fried. I highly recommend. Unconditional parenting by alfie. Kohn that's that's kind of a foundational level Introduction to not using punishments or rewards to manipulate and control your children from there. I would spring into a book called parent effectiveness training by thomas gordon. That's more the how to implement peaceful parenting principles. You know what you do once. You get rid of the old tools. You're looking for new tools. That's the book i recommend to that. So that's those are the two parenting resources i recommend. That's great and oversee you'll website. Everyone can go there and your costs. Can you just dump giving your contact. Details absolutely everything. Voluntary dot com. It will redirect everything dash voluntary dot com. But it's pretty easy to remember everything. Volunteer dot com or scholar. J collins dot com. There are links to get in touch with me. If you'd like i didn't wanna say also on the unscrewing side as far as resources. A highly recommend free to learn by peter gray. He's evolutionary psychologists and has been promoting this idea of self directed education for very long time. It's fantastic book. It part of the book looks at our evolution of species in how integral and important. The practice of play isn't childhood developments. Highly recommend that the second thing is the collection of books by pamela lereah on on schooling getting into practice and you can find that out living joyfully dot ca. Maybe in the future you come back and give us a overview of the of the books you've written as well. The testimonials of the unschooled sounds fascinating. So thanks for your time today. Look foods speaking to you again. You're very welcome. Thank you for having me a hope. You've got as much out of that talk. I did an excellent introduction to where we are now and where we could be. Please check your inbox will be back in touch very shortly for much more inspiration few to start your journey into home. Schooling child led learning and liberty. If you have any families looking alternatives to school. Please give them our information. Homeschooling and liberty dot com and they are more than welcome to join us on this journey. We'll see you real soon. Cheers beckoning now carlinhos. Where this you saw gotta assume as to say god you law got up. I every time she will catch you. And you saw steph winning le gay and we ask yourself this question. What is so amazing and one government run schools that you would send your children to be taught by essentially a curriculum over which you have no authority or control. How would you like to be a part of your children's learning you. A part of your children's learning colors how she ties her shoes. What is a butterfly. Why mommy loves her. Why would you not want to be. Continue to be a part of that. Look at what you've been told for so long that you'd have to say well. Maybe maybe they're not right. And maybe your instincts are right. Unlearn those things about human rights and endowing children with dignity and agency and tawny and then guess what as a side benefit it works.

schuyler collins local elementary school Kohn alfie alfie kohn graham amy oregon mexico Roy stephanie trauma ricky roy thomas gordon paul pamela lereah peter gray carlinhos steph
Uh-Oh, Here Comes Summer (with guests Ashley and Keri from the Momtourage Podcast)

What Fresh Hell: Laughing in the Face of Motherhood

54:24 min | 1 year ago

Uh-Oh, Here Comes Summer (with guests Ashley and Keri from the Momtourage Podcast)

"Hello, friends. It's Margaret. Wanted to stop in and tell you that this week's episode was recorded before the death of George Floyd, and before the events of the week that followed and said that is why you won't hear any current events referenced in the episode and we wanted to check in because we realized that it may sound a little tone deaf that we're having an OMG here comes summer conversation in light of what's going on in the world. Next week we will be having a conversation about race with our guest Deborah Porter, so we hope you'll tune in then as well. Thanks guys. Thanks for listening as always. The summer of nothing. What fresh hell laughing in the face of motherhood. That's a hard pass as it turns out. With Margaret Abel's and Amy Wilson. What is a weekend? A podcast that solves today's parenting dilemmas, so you don't have to. We've already done this summer. HELLO WELCOME WHAT FRESH HELL! This is Margaret and this is amy and this week. You guys are all here. Come summer. Oh, here! Come saw Moore. I'm not sure how I feel about this I mean as we say, there's a great line Downton Abbey where the guy who's like Kinda commoner is like well. We do that on the weekend and Maggie Smith plays. The Dowager Countess is like what is weekend. She's offended by the idea that there's a weekend. Weekend 'cause they don't work and I'm like what is a summer? I don't really understand how it's going to be distinct from my current fresh hell exactly like if we're supposed to make Wednesday different from Tuesday. In order to get through this time now we're supposed to make August different than July. Apparently exactly it's going to be all the fun with more of the cranky heat, amy. It's what Michael of the Washington Post called the summer of nothing. Better than the summer of the Shark member, there was a summer of the shark I'm I yes that was exciting? I think nothing's better than a shark. This is also turned out. That wasn't thing and they were less shark attacks that summer the regular it has been like the long slow like up. This got canceled up. This is getting canceled well, we might be able to do this. Parents will let you know. No. No, that's also been canceled. No, that's that's a hard pass as it turns out I. Mean in some ways that's been the good news I've said before like the russillo rolling nature of it has definitely primed us for like. I guess we'll just accept idiots fate like just a puppy that's been kicked one too many times. I know I didn't deserve horseriding Camp Yep. Yeah, we're like we're a Hunka but summer I. Did say recently to my husband that like my kids were out of school. I guess like most people second week of March, and then it's know whatever heading into June. We've done a summers length of laying around I said. We've already done this summer. Yep, like a full summer. It's already been two and a half months, and now we do summer I. Think it will be a little bit better. Okay, give me hope why I think the structure of home schooling has been great by. By I'm hoping we can keep some of the structure of homeschooling by doing some like camp like activities on Zoom and such I think we were going to set some very strong parameters around screen time one of the things that has made our home. Schooling work really well is no screens nine to three, and so I think we're going to try to implement that for the summer, and then I don't know I think it's GonNa be really chill and I think my kids are going to have to figure out how to play I. Think we will end up probably coren teaming with my sister and her kids a bit so that my kids will have someone to play with. And so I think it's going to be better. That's all that's my final statement and I'm sticking to it. Yeah, you're just sounds like you're saying you'RE GONNA. Fake it till you make it. No I mean I. do think that I will say. We had a full month of forty degree rainy days in March April here in New York and that was soul-crushing like the fact that I can go outside onto my lawn. Put headphones in and ignore. My children makes my life better than being stuck in an open floor plan house with them, which I was for a full month, and so the warm weather is happy eating outside being able to Grill A. A Burger versus like what's for dinner? I don't know I think it's going to be easier. Yeah, it is easier to be able to go outside. Except for some people you know. I have a friend who lives in Saint Augustine Florida and she just was putting up instagram like Oh, here comes summer now. What are we GONNA do? It's going to be too hot to be outside, so it's funny bigger what you wish for right good point because my people from Texas when I was on. What's really hard is it's thirty eight and raining and they'd be like Oh. It's beautiful here. It's eighty here. Call me back in July friend and see how you're doing. It's hundred ten at least here. It's like eighty five. You know right I think it's hard, because usually for us as moms over. Just GonNa. Let it all hang out. We'll sleep in. We'll do whatever it's. The summer camp calls ten for two. Which means you know you work for ten months to get that two months of perfect sweetness of unstructured having fun right except this year, it was not ten for two. It was September two. Two six for six, and it's feeling stressful. Well I'M GONNA push back a little bit, amy, which is usually your job? You're usually the pusher becker around here. Oh, I disagree, but pushback away. I think that Lee. Homeschool has been hard for my kids and I think the end of home. Schooling is going to be kind of a welcome relief and I. do think there is an opportunity. I'm not saying it's going to be all you know popsicles and firefly's, but I do really see A. A possibility to have a pretty old school summer like my brother and sister and I. We didn't really have very organized summers when I was growing up and we explored. I will say my kids are great age. They're like eight nine and eleven, so they can all ride a bike. They can pretty much all we can go on adventures. We can go hiking. I think it's going to be old school and they have peers I mean the pierce thing. New York is still pretty strange because like. Like I'm not super comfortable with them. Hanging out with your friends or by peers I meant that they have like modern either I mean you don't have a summer camp. You have three kids that are within five years and so hopefully sometimes entertain each other oh. Yes, good point! Yeah I mean and I'm kind of hoping that as the opening up hopefully starts to go well, we could. Theoretically I will get together with their cousins like we can be a unit because we've all been quarantining. Hopefully there will be a little bit more approaching for peer interaction because they're a little tired of each other as pierce. Yes, I have already promised my kids at some point this summer we will figure out somebody we have. Cousins who are close in age. My oldest is a high school junior who hasn't seen his friends at months. Okay, WE'RE GONNA. Have like one person who it's okay like one at a time. You've to figure out these sort of grey areas to have sort of Camp Your House I. Mean Even Camp Grandma is. At least questionable for some of us this year. Well, yeah, especially with older people and the thing is your kids are good age and my kids are borderline, because even my eight year old I'm like six feet apart. She isn't what six feet is. She forgets she's a hug her so i. worry about it and then with a two year old. There's no way that you're going to say like. You have to say six feet apart from every other two year. Two Year olds jobs is still lick. Each Other's faces basically. Right and maybe that's okay, right? We're figuring all this out as we go, but it's just a little bit more work for us. That's what I'm dreading. It's I. Think I'm dreading. The uncertainty of will this work, and will this be okay and I'm planning my summer so far right now. Around my high school junior, who has to take tests for college and also has an internship that sounds like it might be happening remotely, which is I guess better than not at all, but it's the uncertainty of it gets to me along with the nagging notion of they are supposed to do something worthwhile with this time. What have? Have you done with this time. Maybe the answer should be nothing. Oh No, they're not knowing I reject this premise. Yeah, well. It's different for a seventeen year old a seven year old I mean they're supposed to survive a global pandemic, which is more than anyone. Their age has ever been asked not ever in the nineteen, thousand nine hundred. They were still asked to do it, but it's more than a lot of people have been asked to do and like as we say in Texas calf rope. You're done league. That's all you have to do is get through it. I think I'm morning a little bit of like. It's the pattern you know. It's that summer means something very different, but you flip the switch, and it's a totally different way of being in its ice cream for dinner, and at staying outside, and maybe some of that stuff can still exist I'm sort of getting a little stuck morning for what's going to happen this summer. Instead of what still can happen I feel like for some. Some wish for summer it is easier for me and I do feel that feeling of like I grew up with a very specific kind of summer, which was like my brother and sister, and I- exploring in the woods, and we went to my grandma's house, and we live near a beach that we could walk by ourselves, and like finding weird shells and making up weird games and. I feel like I have always felt a little bit like I hate this summer where I'm like. I am bad because my kids are kind of lounging around and other people are sending their kids to like the metropolitan. Museum of Art Camp where they're. Learning about art on this very deep level, and my kids are lame and I kind of feel like. Here goes my summer. Baby like I'm not excited about quarantine. I hate not being able to see people I absolutely hate that like one of the things that we cherish the most about our summers is that it's our time to travel and see all of our family, and that's not going to happen this year so like there's a ton of stuff I'm morning for, but like the kind of innocent verb song version of summer, and maybe it's an illusion, and maybe we'll all be miserable, but I do Kinda feel like. Let's lean into the opportunity to lay around on a blanket and read a book and having an old school seventy style summer, so can I tell you. You what the definition of summer should be by a child psych? Who spent a lot of time thinking about this? Peter? Gray I mean you. Can you like it? Okay, and this is not. He is the author of a book that's called free to learn why unleashing the instinct to play will make our children happier more self, reliant and better students for life I can even leave off the better students part for you. It's an end in itself. Yeah, so this is what he says. Some our goal should be in these by the way our goals for a summer that are completely independent of this moment. This is what he was saying. Summer should be before any of. Of this happened that the primary role of summer Peter Grey says is to experience the real world and get away from school. Okay, so that gets a little complicated because they have been away from school, and it's not the real world, but the other thing. He says it's a time to explore your own interests and work on your hobbies. The things that poetry tells us are good for the human soul. Searching the CO for the kids is to explore their own interests, and I think I'm stuck on this because I'm always stuck on this stuff more than you are, but it's also with older kids I am supposed to get them to explore something you know not dislike. Dislike stand that until two PM and younger kids are more likely to go outside with a sticken, you know poke at an ant mound, but an older kid to get them off their phones and engaged in something is a little more tricky, and yet I think important for their wellbeing, being very important and a problem that people have literally only worried about in the last twenty years and part of that is because the technology wasn't the same. It wasn't hand-held before right so like our parents didn't really have to worry the hedge worry about. It's like watching too much TV. And that was easier to control because first of all the I nothing good on during the day. And we would still watch site one life to live when we're aid and be like I. Don't know what this is, but it's better than being outside, but certainly the idea of like this curated experience that we create for our kids is a very new idea, but you're right. A lot of that is because it seems like the other option is like sitting in a basement on Sunday. Sunday shooting on fortnight. We don't want our kids doing that all summer. Know what else has gone away for older kids is lifeguarding jobs and shops closed and you know they. Oh, I don't know the camp counselor thing that they were going to do most of them from most of our older kids whatever they thought they were doing. This summer has gone away in his being replaced with. More time looking at mom, which is not good for either one of us, not going great actually for anybody no I. Mean I. Go back and you know guys. I am the least like pollyannaish silver lining. This would be okay, but for some reason summer is getting me on this level of like what if this was exactly what was supposed to happen for? My kids and I don't say. Say cavalierly because like I. Don't believe this was supposed to happen I don't believe there's a reason for everything I. Certainly see the like horrible tragedy that has affected people. I love dearly within this whole nightmare, but what if is the summer your kids need and it's not that it is the summer my kids need, but approaching it that way. It's like yeah, you know what it might be. Be Good for my kid who placed too many video games to really have to figure out what it feels like to be bored, and what's on the other side of that like in summer makes it easier. I understand why they don't want to walk around in circles in the driveway. Like one of my kids there daily sat outside and talked to the cat for an hour in the driveway. Driveway and I was like I could not think of a better activity for that kid, then sitting outside of Tonkin the cat like they wouldn't have done that on another day. I absolutely agree with that. That is a good use of their time and I guess. I'm worried about like I'm going to get them to do that, but getting them to do that is maybe giving it the space. Space to occur. Maybe that's all that needs to happen. and You I. do think it involves giving giving them the space to a car with older kids has to involve nobody including mom in this house looks at a screen between nine and twelve and three and six, or whatever it is like it's very easy to be like. Let's have a seventies childhood where everyone's free and ride their bikes. Bikes, it looks for aliens first of all. It's harder to do that now. Because my kid was getting more independent writings, bikes places, and I have cut that down because I feel like it's too much for him to manage. When do I have to put a mask on what's happening like the whole quarantine rules? That's over his head. He's eleven years old I would trust him on a regular. Regular Day to go ride his grab a piece of pizza, but I. Don't feel comfortable personally with him knowing like a put mask when I talked to somebody, I wash my hands after handle money, so he's lost some of that freedom, but I do think if you can say there's no screens. It just forces a whole different life interaction and for me. The pressure has gone of like, but. But should my kid be really talking to the cabinet driveway for an hour, or should he be enriching himself at some mystical camp? I think that the answer is talking to. The cat might even be better. Take a break when we come back when it'd be talking to Ashley here in Smith and Carry Sotero from the montage podcast on the other side when it talks about free play and. That could be the best thing for your kid to have the summer. School is about to be out for the summer and I have no idea what my kids are going to do all day. I mean didn't love the worksheets, but now I'm kind of wish. I was nicer to them when they were around amy. It sounds lake. You need an activity for your kids. That will completely absorb them without requiring your presence or assistance. Yes, please. Ideally this activity would be superfund and also teach them about science technology engineering artwork math I. Think I know just what you need. Oh I thought you might, can you? We Go, OF COURSE HE WACO sends your kids super cool hands on projects and toys that are engaging enriching and seriously. Seriously my kids love Kiko projects so much, and so do I, and here's why there's no crying. There's no fighting. The instructions are easy, and they can actually follow them. The boxes contained everything they need, and then they play with the thing after they've made it. It's a win. Win Win, win win, guys, absolutely! Each Kiwi Co box is designed by experts for age groups from. From babies to teens, and they come right to your door once a month. Is there a Kiwi Co daily subscription? Because that might be summer camp at my house? Give it a shot visit Kiko dot com slash motherhood to get a free trial of Kiwi Co. re that's K. I W I C O dot com slash motherhood and get your first month of Kiko free. Bomba's makes listen up the most comfortable socks in history of feet. That's a long history. Amy Tommy something I. Don't know Margaret. Do you know right now I? AM wearing my try block Marl Ankle Height Bomba right this minute I did not know that, but I believe you because I hear the comfort in your very. You people out there. You might not think socks matter. You might think socks or socks, and that would tell me that you have never worn bomb. US Bomba's has rethought all the little details of socks to make you more comfortable I'm glad someone is thinking about this. The cotton is snugly the toe seam non-existent. There's a part across the middle. Hugs. Your arch guys I don't know about the technology. Only know is Bomba's are here for me and I love them even better for. For every pair of Bomba's, you purchase, they donate a pair to someone in need. I mean we're talking thirty four million pairs of socks and counting through a nationwide network over three thousand giving partners give a pair when you buy a pair and get twenty percents off your first purchase of Bomba's at Baba's dot com slash laughing. That's B. O. M., B.. A. S. dot com slash laughing for twenty percent off your first purchase. Bomba's DOT com slash laughing. Hugs for your feet. So today we are psyched to have the CO host of the MOM Toroshin podcast with US Ashley, here in Smith who is the mom of a two year old boy, and carries a is the mom of a one year old girl. You guys might remember Ashley and Kerry from the Scary Mommy speaks podcast. And now there's mom garage welcome. Ashley and High High Ladies So. Actually you go first, tell us how things are going, and how your summer is shaping up or not. So far the summer has been very contained my home and that has presented some very interesting obstacles. You know having a almost three year old son, who just wants to get out into the world and be crazy and play. We're very limited in our home so I. Have to say we've had a lot of debate. Voting and way in on worse case scenario during quarantine and single child between the ages of two and four always comes out on top so congratulations. You are the winner of worse. This is really a encouraged. My husband and I to finally tackle are pretty large backyard. That is basically a garbage pile and. He's zoo for. Wildlife as it going. We haven't done anything. Talking about it is the same as working on. Our Philosophy? Bought a jungle gym for the inside of the House actually. It seems like training. Feral cats could be a great summer camp activities. They have names. That's half the battle all right. I mean when the kid grows up to be like the lion Tamer at the zoo. Look all worked out just fine Carrie. How's it going for? You pretty pretty okay. My daughter is almost two now and things are getting weird but I'm not sure if they're weird because she's almost two or because it's quarantine. It's really hard to tell could be both could be. Getting Weird. She's `binding. Throwing things and she's exploring her independence in all the amazing race, and all of the hardly annoying. Days we call that Tuesday. I'm really over the throwing of the food I'm really over that. Yeah, that's not a great face. Last week's episode was called the Great Regression, and it was wide like all of us including adults. Every kid is regressing to earlier behavior and a two year doesn't have that much runway for that, but it's you know it's going okay, I'm really lucky that we have a place to stay. That is not Brooklyn. New York right now and so we take her to the beach every day, and she can run all that energy out and eat the. The sand and then go to sleep. That's pretty heavily. It does seem to me like atmosphere or environment is huge right now and my husband and I. We have eleven nine and eight and our whole game plan. Every day is like. Can we get some sort of inflatable pool? It's gotta be something other than play for it and I all day, and then punch each other in the face and gets into your rooms like that. That can't be what we do for two and a half months. You know what I'm actually for real concerned about. Me and my cousins, my cousins are all my age and have kids. We all have kids around the same age. All of us have that the amount of amazing activities that we are making our kids every day like every day is some sort of amazing Montessori homeschool challenge and our kids are still getting bored after quarantine. Are Our kids going to expect to be this amazing all the time? Because even being this amazing this creative. They're still board. Right Really Nice my kid gets the IPAD and I'm just like all right figured out that stunned silence you heard was like amazing activities. That's number. One that's right and the problem with a two year old is that if you don't keep them entertained, they like take lightbulbs out. Eat them is stand that the dilemma with a young young kid is really different like a board. Two year old is a different problem that aboard eight year old. Yeah Oh. Yeah, the issue is that we've had some are already right like we're talking about this earlier. That summer is usually a time for letting it all. Hang out and doing whatever and lying around, and if feels different this year we did that already. That was March May what. What is June July August going to look like. We can't just keep doing that for three more months or can we I guess my question for you. Ladies is when homeschooling ends for the summer, or maybe it has for you already. Is that going to be better or worse for your situation? In good question one? We debated quite often. I think it's going to be both of course like I really love the structure that homeschool gives day with kids. We do nine to eleven one two three. That's our homeschooling hours and my kids are fairly independent so I can kind of. Duck out of the experience I'm not sitting over a kid like trying to teach them for four hours. And then we have managed to make eleven to one recess no screens, and so the greatest thing that homeschooling gives us is nine to three no screens in my house, because otherwise my boys would play fourteen hours of forty nine hundred. Screens for a good cause. Yeah, there are unscreened, but their undoing their schooling. And even if like one of them is sneaking a little youtube in between classes like too bad, so sad I don't really care, but it just it gives the day a shape and I am for sure worried and I am to some degree considering telling them. The school didn't end and just kind of keeping going. You're like now. You'RE GONNA, Watch this Werner Herzog Documentary and write a book report about it exactly like whatever it takes to get through the day, but no one either kids are showing up in the zoom classroom. Yes, the new structure now you only see yourself. That teacher looks like Mommy and a wig. Talking about my my kids. You know pretty busy all day from nine to three, so that's heavenly I mean I'm sure you hear that. As the parents of toddlers are like what like my cancer should've at their desks busy? They need to know what they're gonNA have for lunch, but other than that. They're on their own, but then my evenings turn. It's it's study hall and I don't understand this problem said and I can't. Can't think of anything to say for this history paper, and that I have an evening thing of that so far it has kept three PM different from ten am Margaret and I talk about this every week. Like you have to make Monday different from Tuesday right now three PM is very different from nine am in my house, but it's about to not be and I think for a week or two it's going to. To be okay to lie around, and then the things they were planned are yawns, so do we softened into that and five months of lying around or do? We can make up new stuff it's it's harder to lied. Older kids is what I'm saying. There's two things that you just said. That gave me like hot sweats. One of them was when you said problem set. I'm not looking forward to when I need to help. Help my kid with math of any kind. It's really bad you. You're dead on with that fear, because let me tell you I like literally had my one armpit, which is anxiety armpit just full on started sweating dividing fractions. You're like got nothing for you. Can you know math? No, my, that is definitely going to be my partner job. He likes the maths, so he's going to do the maths with her. The second thing that you said is the sheer amount of technology that you have to have to have multiple kids home schooling in your house. Yes, and rooms with doors, and that kind of thing which depending on your living setup gets complicated. Might my school sent home a Google? Survey all the parents because it was a good question to ask like how many kids. Kids are in your house trying to work right now. How many computers do you have them to be sharing or not? Sharing Right now? And that was real good questions, but I'd let it should have like how many rooms with doors closed. You have to put these kids, and because there's a lot of like I'm in math class. Can't you see that it's like? Okay I have to make myself lunch and you're on the same place. It's lovely tip, although it's coming probably too late for most we had a computer that used to be my mom's computer. And now it's ours whatever old laptop, and of course the kids were hearing it by the screen, so screen fell off, and I called the school and I said. Do you have loaner laptops like I? Really don't want to buy a fifth computer. It's not in our family budget and there's almost no other time of our lives where five of. Of US will be working on computers at the same time, and they gave me a loaner laptop from the perfect. Now you don't need a ton of computing power to sign onto like Microsoft forms and fill out. You know your math test. You know when I was a kid. My mom used to have workbooks ready for me every summer I mean up until pretty much my teenage years so i. do recommend that for your kids I hated every second of it, but kept me busy. Did she create these workbooks from scratch or She would go out and buy them very interesting. Yeah, so I. Remember like learning about king. Tut over the summer and then you went to theater school. This turns out. Guys get workbooks all their lives and they become theater majors this. My my mom can sing the same song i. do think that's one thing that's harder for older kids than younger kids like everybody's heart as hard right now, but my my older kids things they have to get done. The summer like someone wanted to catch up on a certain subject. Someone else has to plan for their college applications. It's. I am going to be cracking the whip in a way. That I wish I didn't have to. Because that's not gonNA make June different from April this year. It's been mom's standing over them. Saying you need to get this done for a long time already. To do about that you know I mean. Thank God I. Don't have older kids. Because at this point I will have an older kid at some point. Hopefully God willing, but I don't have the emotional maturity right now in quarantine I think emotional maturity in general, but currently my mental state in quarantine does not have me able to have the mental maturity to deal with my kids being completely. Heartbroken and let down that summer and all the things they'd planned camper trips with their friends or beach, or whatever that's not going to happen I don't know how to hold space for that. Because I'm feeling like a kid. One hundred percent disappointed about my summer plans are cancelled. Yeah, I feel like I'm being a baby about it. I feel like the only upside is that it's been such like it's like a glacier coming through. If I had to sit down my kids, it'd be like our trip to Disney world. We were GONNA do is canceled, and you're not graduating fourth grade and. And Revolutionary Days canceled and we're not going to. Texas like if I had to break any one of those pieces of news, but it somehow like the boulder. Would you agree aiming like? It rolled so slowly that we've just gone to like depressed acceptance, we never really add like mind blowing horror of it all. It's been like we're just like okay. I accept my fate. I'm actually feeling kind of differently than all of you I. Think because my husband's working from home and you know otherwise we don't get that much time with him and I feel like this is the first time where. Where if we WANNA come down to Delaware and stay with his parents for an extended period of time, and take advantage of a yard and a pool and beach I actually can do that for the first time since my son was born so there is that little upside for me. No I'm glad you said because I. Think it's a really good point. And I've talked I was just talking to a couple of friends the other day, and he works like travelling overseas constantly like in China business that he's always away, and we were complaining about how horrible it was and they were like. Like you know what we kinda like it like. We're all home jar. He doesn't have a commute he gets. He breakfast for the kids then he's only gone for eight hours a day. My husband worked from home before this started. We both work from home so I, feel like for us at just messed up. What was great and so I can see where if you had a really busy lifestyle before, and even for us, I mean there has been certain certainly I do not miss when calendar thing pops up and it's like boy Scout Meeting at eight. PM Tonight. I'm like He. Finally, glad, I don't have something you know there's a lot I don't miss. I agree with you on that all right so practically. What is your summer? Look like what is your days? Look like? Are you panicking and making plans or you? Just like we'RE GONNA? Play it as it lays so my day pretty much consists of. Being a Gora phobic and not leaving the house as much as possible and. Just, trying to keep everyone safe at alive and cooking a lot because. It's the only joy I have in the day. Right now is just eating. Then I started to gain too much weight so now I've been trying to work out in the morning to kind of offset all the eating. I do the rest of the day. You are on the exact corona virus like life curve, basically like yeah, it's eight we bait. We ate too much now. We're trying to exercise more. And I will say because a lot of our listeners are over the country I. Feel like a lot of people as all New Yorkers here. It's a very different experience for people in different parts of the country, so we accents that people are like why is going crazy about this thing and it's like well because we live in. New York. That's why guys are looks like hopefully finding a home and spending time. We can't spend where we are right now. Quarantining we, we have to be out at the end of June, but this is also my family's from, so we're currently so wonderfully not quarantined in the same house as the rest of my family, but we at the end of June that will change, but hopefully come back and forth so that we can do things like walk on the beach or play outside and stuff like. Like that and try to normalize it, I. Mean Really. This is the first summer my kid remembers I. Don't want her to be completely shaped percent by this virus. I mean she is going to be. I would like to have her. have some like regular life stuff and we can definitely for sure. Tell you as the old locks parents of this group that she won't. Won't be yeah I mean you got a long way to go? This is going to be such a blip on the radar every year. When you've got those little little ones, you're like. Oh, this is the formative and like their formative, so don't worry about. Take out your worry, less and Ashley. What about you summer to be completely honest I'm I'm a homebody and pretty much? Much always have been a homebody so being home. A majority of the time is an issue for me spiritually like in my soul I enjoy it. It's introverts paradise. That's what people give saying it really is. We'll probably be driving down Delaware pretty often and really just splitting up our time there because my husband can work anywhere where there's Wi, fi, so can I and. Just really taking advantage of being able to spend extended periods of time with both sets of parents and our kit. Okay so Ashley tell us a little bit about the montage podcasts. It's about where we can find it. Oh, the mom trash podcast is just just about two MOMS. Who are trying to get through. We want be each other and. Support System, so where your mom crew your weary. Are Your mom trudge? You can find us at mom trash podcast dot com on instagram at mom triage podcast and we dropped new episodes every Wednesday Hump Day failure Wednesday skies. You lucky dogs actually and Kerry thanks so much for being with us. Thank you ladies. Thanks guys. One good thing that's come out of this crazy time is learning that something's can actually work pretty well online when you can't be with your doctor. Telehealth is a big help, and if you need to talk to somebody right now, better help is there for you with licensed counselors who specialize in depression, stress, anxiety, trauma and family conflicts. In case, anyone is having any of right now and no matter where you live, you now have access to therapy that is completely confidential, and which meets your specific needs. Fill out the online questionnaire super easy by the. The Way I've done it and better help. We'll match you with a counselor. You'll love then you connect on video, phone or text. 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You'll never have to worry about alone time again. No Mommy is in the bathroom I will be out to help you learn the three parts of government as soon as I review message potato facts with your brother, you'll be too busy engaging in a never ending slog that combines the worst parts of parenting with the most painful aspects of teaching for five epic days a week, honey. Honey I'm just saying I think it would be better if you put your thesis statement here at the top of the paragraph law. Why do you hate me? You'll be more involved in your children's education than you ever thought possible Oh. Sorry for walking by in the background at the second grade zoom guys. I didn't realize that was happening this morning. Is that Balmy drinking beer? Mind Your Business, Susan. Susan I'm having a bad morning. Okay and kitchen time you'll have plenty as you find yourself trying to push aside the simple terror of our new existence with skull, baking all while attempting to produce three to twelve full meals each day. How could it be time for lunch? I haven't even finished the breakfast dishes yet. Did someone say quality time with global pandemic? You'll have nothing but as you spend. Spend twenty four hours a day seven days a week with every single member of your family. I don't know where the video controller is. Ask your brother. I hate this. House Terai Global Pandemic Oh my God. You're elected type for the rest of the day. No, no, no, don't bother knocking on the windows. I'm putting on my noise cancelling headphones global pandemic coming to you now through possibly twenty. Twenty one. Oh Amy that takes me back one year old going onto and a two year old. It takes him back somewhere I. Never WanNa be again. It is a different kind of hard right I. Mean I am focused on like Oh. How do I get my teenagers to want to do something who never wanted to do anything? But at least they're capable of self-absorption. Even if it's not something, I want them to be absorbed in Oh God. At least it's not like a sweaty two year. Year old and a diaper. That's no fun right and that's going to be hard to I. Think the good thing about younger kids is that they don't know? It's supposed to be different, and it's one way that it's easier. You know your two year old doesn't really know you usually fly to grandma's for two weeks, and that's not happening this year, and so you can let go of a little bit of the Aga that. That's not happening this year because the kid is with. And he saw butterfly. You know in bed. They live in the moment. The older kids that are more caught up in like. Oh, the stinks was. This is how it's supposed to go, and it isn't and I will say I never liked to advocate for spending money out of problems, because people have really different income levels like you don't know like I don't like to just. A plane ticket like who knows what people are able to do, but I do think this is a good summer, and my husband and I have been talking about it. We are not paying camp fees this summer. We are not paying for some travel that we usually do this summer. And so we are investing in some backyard equipment that we hope will help fill the days and so I think even like I see on instagram or other places like a big Tub to put the two year old in in water, you know and. Just whatever it happens to be I would build it so that it works early on as much as possible and sometimes it's hard to know, and you can spend a lot of money on swing set in. The kid turns out to just like to eat grass, and that will happen, but I do think if you're looking at the long empty summer I would try to think and I will go back to my friend the slack line. We still are playing with ours. It's pretty inexpensive. You just need to trees and then. Then it's like these ropes. It's not an expensive thing. Tell everybody what is because I. Feel like I didn't really understand it until I saw a picture of I can put a picture up in the show notes. Tell us what it is. It's to like picture a belt vinyl belt. It's to vinyl belts that you string between two trees, and then you hold onto the top, and you walk across the bottom like a tight rope, but then there's one on top to hold onto and like my kids now like can do. Do flips on and it's a pretty cheap investment like it's one of the things that gets the most use in our yard. We put up a zip line, which was a little bit more expensive. My husband's an engineer, so he was pretty much build it, and so we just needed the parts of a little bit more expensive and the slack line first of all, it's more active as if wind you're sitting and a slack line. You're kind of doing gymnastics on and I will say we now in our backyard have A. A swing set a ZIP line, slack line and a tree house, all of which my husband basically built and their board of them. You can't spend your way out of boredom. There's no way to do it. I don't care if you're like the richest person in the world, and you're like J. Lo, and you've nine pools and separate house, and all sorts of in your backyard. The kids will bore of anything that's out there, but it might be a good year to invest a little bit in like anything you're thinking. Thinking of getting little kids, my kids would get hours out of water table, just table with cups and water. You don't even have to buy one I think they're pretty cheap like you could make one. You know just something. That's an activity outside I. Think Helps Out so the slack line makes me think of I was looking at the back at Peter Gray. We were talking about in the first segment. Who is a child development psychologist who specifically talks about play and free play and how kids need to do as you. You, said go right around on bikes and look for aliens that we need to get back to that for our kids. And he was saying that separate from this whole moment that we're in, but I think the moment that we're in offers this opportunity, so he talks about what's good free play, but he says that good free play. One thing is that it should be physically challenging the slack line like it's a little bit hard. It's hard to get their balance. They have to really concentrate while they're doing it and. And they may little kids by doing things that are a little challenging climbing a tree. They're a little scared there. Little this. They're pushing themselves to the edge their feelings about those things, and then they're regulating themselves. They get much more emotional growth out of that than they do. At of mathworks shape because they're figuring it out themselves am I. Brave enough to do this. Can I do it and then they do yeah I mean and that is something that we've lost and I. do think that like there is a. A return that is not to be squandered this summer and I'm trying to lean into it, and it's easy for me to say because my work is easy for me to do from home. And my husband worked from home before this so like it's challenging for us to work and have the kids around, but it's set up pretty well for me and like we're in a pretty good spot where we live. It's really different from my friends who are living in apartments in sitting like it's like it's great, you know. But in the situation that I am in I am a huge fan. I realized like I have a theme Matic love of stories that are about things that happen to people, and then they find like their true selves in that place, so the book Bel Canto know that Book Yeah I. Do Bouts Better Group that's. These relationships developed and we're watching sang last week. S Creek the show that I can't say the first word of because our podcast is rated clean. People finding their real life after the event they wish had never happened to. Them is a theme that I really like in movies in literature, and I'm trying to bring that heart into this experience, a little bit like what life is waiting for us on the other side of this bad experience, and the not knowing like I don't know my kids are going to do this summer, but the not knowing is the point because it's free play, and they're going to figure it out. Themselves might not knowing has to go along with that none of that. To anxiety around it and the frustration around it and we all feel so frustrated. 'cause like one day. It's this information in the next day. It's that information and everyone's kind of like I want to know what's going to happen. What are the rules? What's GonNa? Be Happening here there and everywhere, and the fact is. We don't know and so like this is the other side of the thing is just living in this kind of unknown place, and it's terrible, but my guess is if you. Put the right kind of goggles on. There's a lot of learning and gifts on this side of it. So can we talk a little bit about what Dr? Gray says about free play like what it is 'cause i. think like what he was saying about. It has to be physically challenging. Yes, because I think the definitions helped me sort of figure out one that this is worthwhile and to that it's okay to figure this out, so he says that free play is something that a child undertakes himself or herself, and it's self directed. It's it is go out and play. It isn't why. Why don't you play with this activity? That I've curated you right? Why don't you cut these things out of construction paper that I'm handing? You really is figure this out and the other point of free play. He says it has an end in itself. It's not part of an organized activity like your kid is talking to the cat outside talking the cap voice because he wants to. It's not a means to an end. It's completely self-contained, so those are two things about free play that make it seem a little easier to me and another positive of summer and free play is like. Like. There's tons of schools now. That are basing their curriculum around free play and tried to teach these skills to kids like you're getting that education for free this summer. Guys like it's free play and I would say for us. The biggest rule around free play is that come in his latest possible, and this is a really hard thing for me and I think it's a hard thing for you like my son. The other night decided he wanted to make an apple pie for his brother's birthday, and he hasn't really made one before, but he's cooked enough and he's a boy scouts. Scouts who knows how to use a knife and stuff and my husband and I both happened to be in the kitchen. We were kind of supervising, and my son would say cinnamon and my husband would go to the cabinet and grab it and handed to him and I'm like you can come in later destroyed that he can find the cinnamon. He can find it like the more we're around. The less he will make an apple pie because it will just become like we are facilitating the experience of an Apple Pie, being produced, and so we just kind of had to check ourselves. Ourselves completely stop interacting, and he found the cinnamon, and he found the measuring copy was measuring stuff out, and at one point he put got a cup of flour, and it was like a Heaping Cup was like. No, no, you've gotta I saw he was about to say. You've got a score at first and you know off the top okay, and then at one point he went to cut an apple, and he was about to cut into it and I could see his fingers. We're like right in line with the nicely. He was gonNA cut through to his fingertips and so I. I jumped up. No, no, you've gotta be careful where you got to be really wherever your hand, but the latest you can come into the story because I think free play becomes like well. Dad and I will build a giant obstacle course for you to free play on. That's right. Free plays. The kids build the obstacle course they have the kids come up with the game. They arbitrate the rules they have to gain. They gain a sense of mastery, right? Your son is going to have much more of a sense of mastery over his world that he found the cinnamon or that. that. We're talking a couple of weeks ago. About when might teenager changed the light bulbs? The recess light bulbs in the kitchen ceiling, and was still blighted with himself and that I let it go on. It took a lot longer than it needed to. Because I wasn't there to direct them, but he did it all by himself, unlike he thought he was hot stuff for five seconds, even though he's a cool cat now and it is letting them do it. Themselves leads to greater feelings of confidence. Not The that like he's making apple. Pie because he wants to. It doesn't have to. To be so he can go on top chef or that he becomes Baker when he grows up. There is no and other than his feeling. Proud that he figured something out. So the more you leave Malone alone, the better it'll be. Yeah. There is no end other than having a successful conversation with your hand. There is no secondary expectation there I mean hopefully a good pie i. mean I hope it was a good in the end? Yeah, the pirates delicious, so there is a secondary gain. Oh, see. We just finished the Book Bridge Too Terribly Theology Remember that book. Yes, I do. Oh so good, and it's so I mean I kept almost stopping because it's a very tragic story, and I was like. Don't think my kids can handle it, but I had a vivid memory of reading it when I was in like second or third grade and I read it with my second and fourth grader. And I plowed through it, and they loved it although they found it very upsetting, but it's fundamentally a story about two friends who create this magical world in the woods, and they're a little bit older, but. It was like a good chicken for me. That book like right. There is no better education you can gatt than making up a magical world in the woods with your friends like that's the most enriching activity you can engage in. Yes, and I will say we like urban northeastern people, which you and I both are are explaining something that I feel like my relatives in Texas are much better at I mean they just like? Grab the cooler good out of the creek and the kids play all day. You know I mean they're much better at like. Wait a minute. I'm failing because I'm not at a stem class, right? Right now. I feel like they're much more in touch with. Let's have a roving in roaming summer Melissa, Bernstein, you know Melissa and Doug Toy Company s she wrote an article, but I'll put in. The show notes about you know free play in kids. And she called it what she was trying to. Capture was the siblings on the sidelines syndrome by which he means like you. Take your kid to the weekend soccer game. The younger kids are on the sidelines. She sort bemoans that now more than our screens than there used to be, but that the point of the weekend soccer league the kids who are getting more out. Out of it might be the siblings on the sidelines. who were like? What's your name? I went to a phillies game when I was a child with my parents and I, remember them laughing. 'cause like I made friends with the girl sitting behind us, who was a stranger and we played barbies. It Mike I was turned around with my seat, and not even watching my first major league baseball game, but it was total like i. was completely engrossed, had a great time playing barbies with the kid, and that is more valuable than the soccer league. I thought that was really eye-opening. That is such a good lesson and I'm. I'm glad you told that story. Because it encapsulates perfectly, and it goes back to your point, which is you? Don't interrupt happy child and like I. Think most parents would have been like stop playing barbies. We're here to do baseball. That's what this is about right and like. It's so nice that your parents were like Oh. This is what this kid is into and I think you know know. We're going to play horse as a family now, so stop talking to the cat. That's an instinct to have to watch myself, and it really is just like what's the next fun thing it's up to you. Watch a couple episodes. For, but I know you recommend that all the time because it really is about like summer, and the gift of summer is imagination and downtime. The gift is not like finally a time to learn stem no fence stem I love you, but you know it's enough. Do want to hear the last thing about free play. That's good I think it really helps with this momento. Yes, flat, free play help protect kids from anxiety and depression. Because this is Dr Gray again? Those who believe that they master their own fate feel more confident, so your kids will not be anxious while they're playing with. The cat were making the Apple Pie, and they control their own world, and it makes them feel better about themselves, which leads to depression and anxiety, and that's something we could all use right now again. That's not the. The reason like go make an Apple Pie, so you won't be anxious, but isn't that Nice? If it's a byproduct and just important skill, you know like conflict resolution is a big important skill. One of the big things I've learned in quarantine is intervene during violence with my children like yeah I could arbitrate eighty six arguments today, but I have forced myself to stop intervening and. It's also like people I know my middle child, not surprising these kind of the mediator and you know but i. hear them so cussing. If I'm comes down here, she's GonNa make us turn off, so get it together. Their mediating their own disputes. You know and I think listen. It's GONNA be tough. It's going to be hot air. Conditioning doesn't work well on my house and. And I'm not looking forward to it guys, but it's not going to be fun, but I think there's stuff in it. If we just look for that stuff, the kids are going to be forced to do more free play this summer, but free play is not all bad, and so maybe we can back off and let it happen and see what happens. That's my plan, yeah. Yeah, and take it day by day. I mean we're already? What is it you know we're couple months into this already and like we got a couple of months maybe more to go of figuring it out, so you know it's just high five yourself every night when you're like Wednesday. Done like you're getting through the day. You're winning it. That's my philosophy and your kid playing. Playing with the rocks driveway is happy and learning self control, and they're gonNA be better off. They're going to be better than at the summer camp. Maybe a little bit I mean it's easy to say, and it sounds really cliche in pat and someone annoying I. Realize but I actually believe that to be true so there I solved. We're about to find out you saw. Yeah. When I'm hot and miserable, but listen I'M GONNA try. GUYS WE WANNA. Know what's going on. What are your summer plans? What's the one thing that you have in your backyard that your kids love playing on? It's not expensive, so don't be like my third pool with an indoor waterpark, not interested. We can't afford that I'm talking about an investment piece that is working really well for you. GUYS COME TO FACEBOOK DOT com forward slash. What for Shell cast and tell us all about it? We're. We're also on instagram. What fresh hell cast were on twitter? We're on Youtube and TIKTOK now. You guys were on. tiktok were Oldie locks on Tiktok. How did this happen I know free play how it happened. We also wanted to thank the Maharaj podcasts we wanNA, thank Ashley Carey for being with us today. There show is hilarious. Check it out and guys. We will talk to you next week so long. Talk to you next week.

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Lenore Skenazy

Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

2:06:23 hr | 9 months ago

Lenore Skenazy

"Are you ready to do this ball ball bone bump ago bum-bum-bum-bum-bum-bum-ba Blah. Blah Blah Blah Blah. Blah Blah boom boom boom, boom boom y'all ready for this. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome to armchair expert I'm Dan Jeopardy I'm joined by Monica Monsoon. Emmy nominated miniature mouths. What is your Starbucks Cup say is your name Poser when you go to starbucks, do they ever mess up your name Oh sure yeah. Yeah. They pet Dan DAB. DAX. Da. CK. Dak.. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of different ones e-e-e-e-no. My move for that is just like whatever they sag. Oh Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is so much quicker. Imagine having foreign name like Monica. Well. Okay. Today we have a guest that we've been wanting to have on now for a couple years because good old Jonathan recommended her and we finally made it happen. Lenore skinny. She is a journalist. She spent fourteen years at the New York Daily News and two years at the New York Sun her column Y I let my nine year old ride the subway alone and book free range kids launched the Anti helicopter parenting movement currently the CO founder and president of let grow with Jonathan. Their mission is to create a new path back for parents and schools to let kids have some adventures develop more independence and grow resilient I dig her message. Did you yeah and it's scary. You know I don't have kids but I Can See really having a hard time with this with giving them independent is yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I'm very pro it and I am committed to challenge even myself in this arena. K. K. pleasing. Joy lenore skin easy. We are supported by Brooke Glennon falls right around the corner and what better time to refresh your space than a fresh new season. We're talking all new super soft bedding towels and even loungewear because if you're gonNA sit back and admire your new digs might as well be insanely comfortable doing Brooke Linens Labor Day event is happening. This weekend featuring everything you need to outfit your home this season at a fraction of the Price Brooklyn selection is so versatile cool sheets, cozy sheets, plush towels, different colors, imprint my number. One attraction to the product is how good I feel nude in all of their stuff nude in their towels in the sheets nude in the loungewear the bathrobes just heavenly against my skin. Yeah agreed. Now, this year's been teaching us a lot among other things I've learned what a different quality comfort makes in my daily routine. That's what Brooklyn incomes in their labor. Day event is coming up this weekend and it's a big one. Don't miss out on big savings on all things, sheets, towels, loungewear, and so much more, and if he can't wait, you can get ten percent off your first order in free shipping right now when you use Promo Code Armchair only at Brooklyn Dot Com that's B. R. O. O. K. L. I N. E. N. Dot Com Brooklyn, and everything you need to live your most comfortable life we are supported by hellofresh get fresh premeasured ingredients mouth-watering seasonal recipes delivered right to your door with hellofresh Number one meal Kit Monica. What did you make? I made a chipotle black being Taco Oh my God they were so good a handle radish and was very feisty. Was You have I had a pub style shepherd's pile. Of course he did White Cheddar in time. Mashed potato. Oh Do I love Shepherd's pie now hellofresh offers convenient delivery right to your doorstep for easy home cooking with the family. The recipes are easy to follow in quick to make simple steps and pitchers to guide you along the way you can save forty percent by using hellofresh versus shopping at your local grocery store, and it's more convenient to they offer. So many delicious options every week to help you break out of your recipe Rut and try new things including low Calorie Vegetarian kid friendly recipes go to hellofresh dot com slash. Eighty and use Kodak's eighty to get a total of eighty dollars off your first month including free shipping on your first box. Additional restrictions apply please visit hellofresh dot com for more details. That's eighty dollars off your first month and free shipping on your first box. When you go to hellofresh dot com slash DAX eighty with Kodak's eighty. Okay. Now, I wrote out your name phonetically. So I'm dyslexic just to give you a precursor so. That's on me. That's not a new but I wrote it out and I wonder I don't know how to write phonetically but I have my own system but lenore skinny I, do I You write it I wrote La Space and. Space S. K. E. H. Guetta and then space in A. Y.. Z.. Y.. Wow That's it. I could get a job at webster breaking down the I think it's calling. That you're pasting your time. First and foremost. How are you doing nervous to be on your show but in general pretty good. Oh wonderful and why are university on our show I feel like I should be flattered for that. Yeah. You should be flattered, right. Because contributions to your I'm doing podcast last week I think we had five hundred listeners. So I'd say yours is a little bigger. Nervous, but that's all to be credited to my wife. People are very interesting. Launched this show with a big fight between us and people seem to like that. It's a union thing where are you from originally suburbs of Chicago? Fellow midwestern. Yeah And what did your folks do? A homemaker she started out as a social worker and I think for the same reason I started out as a reporter just really wanted to be able to like you to meet people and find out what's going on in that house in that House, and my dad had a furniture store and he loved playing tennis and when I when he was fifty, he sold the furniture store started in indoor tennis club, which was totally fulfilling to him and he ran that until he died around age ninety, did it have the big inflatable domes over? One structure I still don't understand what those domes are. It looks like a Bouncy House. Yeah I. Think they're much cheaper. You just inflate them with air like the Pontiac Silverdome and then you're good to go. I think that's my understanding of. You're good student clearly if you got into Yale Yeah and stayed in. And what was the driving force? Was it just your own interested in achieving things or where you driven by parents? You know it was so long ago that it wasn't a thing to start thinking about college until like junior year of high school in New York there was that mom who sued the preschool where her four year old was going to school because the kid was in a class with two year olds he's like, how is my kid going to get into a good soul? My guess she's being held back by this two year old morons. Kid should be stunning the constitution or something. But back in the day, start just went to school and then eventually met with your guidance counselor junior year and they said time to start thinking about college and you did it wasn't a long term plan. I'm in lockstep with you on all the free range parenting in your luck grow foundation. We had Jonathan Height on two years ago and he brought you up and then we referenced you without learning any more about you just simply what he said we parroted everywhere. Kicked down but I'm also aware of my own why I think I'm predisposed to embrace it so much which is I had a single mother raising three kids who was building a business and I had an inordinate amount of free time and responsibility, and then my mother also was very generous and she let me take road trips at a young age as long as a budget and the map and the whole nine. So I just happen to have loved that upbringing. So I wonder if I'm a little biased in that direction, and then of course I'm curious if you were maybe bias in that direction where your parents abnormally trusting and. I not surprised that you're bias in that direction. I'd say everybody over thirty or thirty five grew up the way you're talking about maybe not on the road trips maybe not in the mid West. The you know what? We now call a free range or electro childhood was the norm back. Then when I was five in the suburbs of Chicago, I was walking to kindergarten right? It was just normal and it wasn't like my mom was daredevil are that she was like you know I'm going to show the world that my kid is independent. It was just everybody was walking to school and the weird thing is when you got to the corner, there was a crossing guard and the crossing or do you remember this? The crossing guard was a kid. So. Somehow fellow kid was trusted with getting you across the street and what did they have to stop traffic was a sash. Orange Day Glo Sash I'm not even sure they had dayglo back but he? and. I don't even remember a stop sign well had them in my neighborhood, but he got increasingly heavier the longer you held it and most the time it was employed in their in their duties. Left on the Kerber Down Yeah for all the traffic stop in good that. Can I, tell you one strange story about me and the crossing guard. Love to hear that I married him. Oh. Not then. How it wasn't like. Okay. Let's meet up again and it wasn't like he was an older man he was ten, I was five. Stock him it wasn't man in a uniform I, gotTa go get him. It was just that we realize actually after we were married years later. He mentioned that he was a crossing guard. I'm like where and he said the corner of Ramona and look like a great obviously you. Safely can't be alive so you can marry me twenty years later. That's so great. Well, I try to explain this to folks in California because most people that are either from California or have been there for decades like I have, we have an enormous immigrant population that does most jobs like boy gas station attendant seven eleven employees. Blah. Blah. Blah. I'm always reminded and shocked when I returned to Detroit, the whole city is being run by teenagers. No one wants the total gas station shift after five PM. So you'll go in there at two in the morning there's a sixteen year old Ryan or I'll go to dairy queen and there's like three thirteen year olds running the whole, and then of course, the grocery bags are twelve and thirteen year olds I think a lot of people don't have that experience if they live on. On either coast maybe that teenagers are running tons of businesses around the country when there's not a cheap immigrant labor pool, one of the things they think about it's not just Jonathan Height that started like Bro with me it's also momentum. Peter Gray. He's studied the importance of free play in childhood, but he also is a psychology professor and he talks about how kids today especially, teenagers are often depressed and anxious and you've probably seen it. You guys are both nodding in unison. Sex to well, that's at least something that they can do. That's grown but everything else that's grown up is not there for them they can't have responsibility they can't drive. They're not expected to do most things other than to be students often and pretty demoralizing when you feel like you're just feeling your oats and you're ready to take on the world and you're told I have to sign, you're reading logs still I mean how how could you possibly feel empowered when you literally aren't because you can't earn money and you can't get around And, your parents don't want you going out by yourselves and the malls don't want you in the malls and pretty soon you're just stuck doing your homework going online. That's the demoralizing experience I was wondering how did this transition happen because my parents are incredibly fearful and I had a job when I was fourteen if they have kids now they would act so differently. So it's clearly societal cause they themselves are fearful. Yes. Yes. It really is society people always think that minority anti helicopter parenting person and first of all part helicopter. Don't blame parents because like you're saying they were parents to you when you were seven now instead of whatever age you are, they would be wondering, Oh, I, don't know if I can let her walk to school and I'm just going to sit here while she plays to make sure that nothing bad happens. So gradually society started thinking of all kids is in danger all the time that's like the shorthand for what I can say it's like we've come to believe that kids can't do anything on their own. Safely or successfully. So there always has to be an adult there to make sure they don't hurt themselves to make sure that they get the most out of it to be the teachable moment and the best example I can give of why I don't blame parents but I do blame parents, which is appearance. Magazine is an example from Parents magazine, which is that they had this article a couple of years ago and how to throw a perfect play date, which is already where we are as this his high. Yeah Ari problematic you're an anthropologist years an artifact from a culture that says that parents need help doing something as basic and something that actually parents didn't use to do. It was kids who would go outside and find their friends or call them oppor go to their house, right? Yeah were instigating all that right. So now it's organized by the parents and the. That a reader asked Parents magazine was my kid is old enough to stay home alone by herself and often does my run an errand but now she's got a play date over. Can I still go to the dry cleaner and what had parents magazine set? Why would be cheating because I've watched a lot of your interviews so I'm Gonna I'm going to say Bryant A. With Monica Monica while. Being say. No. That's so irresponsible why what could happen if the parent isn't there drowning choking cutting each other's hair to short rule? That's Great. Yeah. Oh. It's much more in name than that. Right? It is well when they first of all, they came up with the kids could get hurt physically like you're saying, you know they gave an example of some kid who wants put some macaroni and a microwave and when she took it out, it was too hot and it fell on her and she had to go to the doctor and they were so desperate to find an example of a kid being physically hurt that the example they gave was while the mom was still home but in this case, the mom had been in the backyard. So already you're hearing that it's not even safe to be in the backyard when your kid is. Also, add to you what you're saying that notion that among two kids that neither one could dial nine, one one, I mean, what is the parent GonNa? Do we're acting like all parents are medics or first responders are doctors? We do the same thing the twelve year old pick up the phone call nine, one one, and we'll get have help arrived and everybody's. got a phone I think the implication there was that you would have put the macaroni and cheese in the microwave you would have taken it out. You would have blown on it till it was the exact right temperature or use one of those spoons. Have you seen those baby spoons that turn a different color? The food is too hot because you couldn't possibly out. Yeah Yeah. No kidding. So a they could hurt themselves physically but then the magazine also said, and what if there is a statue you wanna be able to jump in before anyone's feelings get to hurt and to me that's the Rosetta Stone of this culture that we're talking about because it is implying a couple of things. One is that a spat is unusual or terrible to is that your kid getting hurt is something that should never happen three. You should always be intervening and four. What if they do get hurt? What is the implication? The implication is that they will Be So hurt or still traumatized, or this'll be such a terrible experience that you will have failed as a parent because who knows how that's going to affect them. Later on, you should be making sure that their life is a smoothie in Nice and cool a no chunks and kind of healthy and kind of Yucky, I'm not a smoothie Fan. Otherwise your kid is going to be damaged and it's all your fault. So when you're asking how come your parents Monaco would be scared today, it's because the Bible of the parenting world and we don't even have our grandparents. Around, to tell things, we're living in little atomised talks with the nuclear family. So you're you're looking to the experts to tell you what to do and they're giving you this advice that I think they pull out of wherever that just says, don't let anything happen never and actually one of the things in that same article was your daughter's going to have an overnight at a friend's house. It turns out that the friend's father is divorced. That's the only that's who's GonNa be home and parents magazine says, don't do it. You have any worries at all don't Let. Your kids stay over and so once again, all the single man, the single dads are written as they were only held in check by their wives and without a wife, they're they're gonNa comment attack the kids. So it's just as scary world filled with flaming cheese and hurt feelings and scary parents and that's the Diet that we've been fed over and over and over again and when people ask me like, would you let your kids play outside or walk to school or whatever I say yeah and then they often they bring up an example from like law and order. Or a terrible case that happened twenty, thirty forty years ago and why aren't you thinking about that I considered a mark of good parenting and kindness to be going to that worst case scenario I I got a ten trillion things I wanna ask you one is there must be corollary between the time invested as as we've evolved society towards less children more concentrated effort in more capital being spent on each child those must correlate. Is that 'cause -ality, I don't think that's a question. We can actually determine I. Don't think the parents cared less when they had more kids back when child mortality was much higher. I'm sure they were more resigned to that horrible fact of life but I don't think they mourned less. You know when you have a few kids have is a lot of resources and I feel like that's the correlation that I think I can make which is that if you have two people working. And maybe one or two kids. That's a lot more money per kid that you can span than if you had a dad working and six kids, and so the marketplace knows where dollars are m dollars are out there to be spent on kids to make sure that they're safe. You know if you can scare apparent about something happening to them, I mean, there is one thing I hate using the name. So I'll try to come up with a fake name. Let's call it the gopher. There's a little device called the gopher, which it really isn't called. It's an electronic sock that you put on your baby when they come home healthy and everything fine from the hospital and it measures they're hall their temperature, their movement level, and their blood oxygen level. Okay I'm going to ask you guys what's your blood oxygen level I hope above ninety, seven I. Now because you're Mr like. As Monica. And you can't use his number by the way I only know this because of covert I know when you're supposed to get yourself from oxygen or some breathing. It's really high though that's the other memorable thing about that numbers. It's like anything below like ninety four you're in trouble I would think doing anything ninety, four percent efficiently your goal. But actually like your dad by plus. Yes, exactly. saw those numbers I was like Oh wow. You really gotta be perfect at this oxygen level thing one other quick question along the investment question. Do you find variation socioeconomically and the thing that immediately popped in my head is I just heard this interesting story about how largely white affluent parents have pulled their children out of football but you're seen still lower income minorities at the same. Rate because again, the reward is so great for them in that position that they've determined it's worth that risk. Wow, I hadn't seen that I have no doubt that there are variations of every stripe among different groups of every stripe by the statistic that most fold Mu over a guess was the New York Times article like two years ago and it's not the only paper I read that. was on the front page and it was the pain of intensive parenting and one of the things it quoted was a study that was done across the economic spectrum right in a rich to poor black to white you name it and one of the questions on the survey was you're making dinner and your kid wants you to come draw with her what do you do and? Across the economic spectrum, the the most answered answer was you drop everything and go draw with them because it's so important to support them show that you care and spend time with them and role model and teachable moment and this and that, and I, thought you know a teachable moment is like you draw you know I can't wait to see what your job I'm making the Spaghetti. So, this internalized thing is sort of parents magazine model of what it means to be. A good parent is to drop everything you're doing and there are other studies that talk about like how many more hours parents especially moms are putting in today. Then Monica your parents did a generation ago to the point where among college educated moms and I wish I could remember the number for among non college educated. Bob, college moms are spending nine hours more a week than moms were in the seventy I quote that all the time. I love that I just said that this female friend of mine who was kind of feeling guilty I said, I guarantee you. You're spending more time as a working mother with your child than any fifties housewife did just know that understand you're probably doing much better than you think but yet this collective guilt and shame is so toxic. Happy that you quote that statistic because it helps sort of has to get out that we're just asking. So much of ourselves particularly of MOMS, and first of all, there's something lost to the kids when they are constantly you now under surveillance and constantly helped and assisted in size Rebecca Tracer wrote this book called all the single ladies and it was about how basically a lot of the social movements throughout American history were spearheaded by women who weren't married because they didn't have the husband and they didn't have the kids they didn't have the. Kids that they had to take care of and the part that struck me is so interesting is that she said that once the industrial revolution came along and there were the first labor saving devices ever for like a washing machine, you know a an automatic wringer or something like that or maybe a vacuum cleaner just when it got a little easier, what happened is all these books started being published about how to make the perfect home and one of the coaches like there's more to setting the table than you might think an idea. You Know How many folks you have to do and don't forget the place mats and starch the Linens and this and that, and it just felt coincidental that just when women were getting a little bit of free time and maybe could use that to evolve or work or do anything other than housework housework became more demanding and to me I've always. been a little suspicious that just we've talked about the seventies. That's just when women were starting to come into the workplace as women have gotten further and further along where the majority of people in college now, and we're doing better than ever. Suddenly the demands of parenting are outrageous better sit through every soccer practice and if you have three kids while you. Better, make sure that they have it on alternating days or else go from four in the afternoon to nine at night and watch each of them because it's so important that you're there for everything. It's like isn't it a little odd that suddenly were expected to do so much more just when we were getting ahead so I have this weird kind of. and I wonder what your opinion is. So I'm raising two daughters and so there is a little compass in my head right where I go. I'm basically establishing a relationship that they might try to replicate later down the road with a significant other and so if if what I'm setting up for them that I will be endlessly enthralled with whatever they do. And then I will want to just stare at them while they doodle. Z. I'm setting up an expectation for them and I'm just being I think realistic about what's in the marketplace for them there's no dude out there. That's ever GonNa Stare at them knitting and be thrilled you're ready for another role. Let's see how it goes. I don't want to mislead them into thinking. They'll be another man out there or woman that's going to be this excited about every little thing. They do I think it'd be false advertising misleading and I think I'm setting them up to be completely and wholly unsatisfied in any relationship because the relationship should just be the other person's spectator while you do whatever in person. Cheers so. When I'm trying to figure out what I should do I'll go what would I do this in a relationship and I'm like never now I would never indulge my wife like this. What do you think about that as a barometer I, think that's really interesting. I had a friend who wants pointed out that we keep talking about parenting parenting parenting, but we never talk about wiping. Or husbanding, and maybe we should be thinking about our parenting in terms of what does it mean just in terms of a normal relationship do you have to high five everything that they do do you have to give a gold star? You know you have to comment on everything I was just talking to some genius in parenting world. Forgive me genius I can't remember who you work who was saying one of the things that driving his crazy today is the fact that we ask them questions all the time Oh are you drawing? Is that a cat? Aloe I loved it. Yellow is at the same color as the sun and the kids are like, can you let me drive? At yellow because that's the only Crayon I have and there's something where I feel like once again, I don't blame parents because this is a model that came from somewhere that we are all doing that we think is showing the kids that were paying attention that we love what they're doing that we care and what a strange idea that they wouldn't think that we cared or loved them unless there was a constant stream of interacting and. Cheer and Fascination with the Yellow on which none of us really feel. I agree with you in your also it's very interesting because they're much smarter than you are ever giving them credit for. So they are at some point they're gonNA attack. No one gives a shit about what color some implicit in it is like, Oh, well, that was kind of fake. So part of a relationship or part of interacting is kind of A. Yes. So I have I only have a few rules in personally for me, which is I. Don't laugh at my kids unless they were legitimately funny but I think it's because I'm a comedian and I'm like I don't want to miss them I don't want them to think they've got material. When you're funny I'll laugh I'm not gonNa just placate you because how on earth are you going to learn to be funny if I'm laughing at every Shitty joke, you have you know I'm not meaning just you get a laugh when needed some. Yeah I don't know but I do want to say it's all beautiful right at the bottom of all this is we all want so desperately to do the best job we can and it's very sweet of US I don't think you or I are casting a judgement to anyone who's listening right now going shit just said Green Beautiful Green. It's Beautifully inspired thing it's just you gotta question what is most effective for turning out an independent autonomous adult who can self regulate and control? Yeah. Really and be perfect at everything they do and have fantastic relationships and never be disappointed. Let's say now. That, we can't do it. First of all, like I was just saying like parenting the idea that you can create this perfect creature by doing everything right and by not saying I see you're using yellow but on the other hand also letting them know that you approve and not praising them too much but giving them enough attention but not so much attention that big hat or so little attention that they you know hitchhike at four to go to your uncle's house. So there's no right way to do it and I feel like we are in this extraordinarily judgmental time and I hope I don't sound like that. Too because the whole idea is that none of us know exactly what to do all I can tell you is that society this culture has made us extremely conscious of everything that we could be doing wrong and extremely fearful that somehow our kids aren't safe which has led to this overprotection and I'm just trying to hold back is second and say you know our kids are going to be mostly okay and when they're not okay it's fate or luck and I talked to I don't know if you want me to go into this whole sidebar on religion I. Love Talking about religion go ahead the ANCHO Major. All right. So let me lay this on you. It's not that religion doesn't exist today. Obviously, it does but it actually, this is the theory of Allen Limits who's a professor of religion at James Madison? He says that religion still influences our lives and our decisions but an ever shrinking sphere. Religion decide what you were wearing and what you were saying and what you were reading and how you were raising your kids and what you're eating. It was like it covered everything and now gradually sort of just our spiritual life for many of us and so that left this whole swath of life's decisions to us, and so we don't actually know what we're supposed to nobody knows exactly what they're supposed to do as a parent. So we read all these magazines and we listen to the experts and we read the studies away scientists taken the place of the religion all just read you can't possibly use. A Plastic Cup, it'll give them this or you can't possibly let their lunch up too much. They'll get bacteria or whatever everything a study and your whipsawed because the studies come out and you have to do this, and then you have to do that and the worst part about it is that if you think that there's God's plan, right or somebody is watching over you or fate is fickle. Then is something bad happens. It's like it wasn't on you right? Right. It was God's plan and we don't always understand God's plan right and so there's some sympathy, right? It's like there but for the grace of God. Go I right on. It's just an expression but if it's all on you that if something happens, it's immediately while she wasn't paying enough attention or she you know it's all her fault and the other thing that this professor said is that religions are smart enough to say that perfection is just not possible in this existence, right? So it's Karma will come back later it's heaven or hell it's Judgment Day but if you think that perfection is yours to create on earth are stuck trying to make every birthday the best birthday trying to make every soccer game a winning game, which is why everybody's getting the trophy every car ride you had a good talk and You really got some place and every song you sing along with because that's the kind of family are everyday's Disneyworld. It's it's impossible and that's what you're supposed to feel and you worry that if anything goes wrong, you won't have the support of your fellow humans because it will just be judgment well, and there's nothing I have found there is no topic that is dicey to get involved with then parenting with other parents because we all feel judge and I think one thing that's really relevant to recognize which we've talked about. Before your children are an extension of your own ego and it's really really important I think to monitor that stay tuned for more armchair. If. You dare. We are supported by. We all shop online increasingly. So I'd argue during the pandemic. Yeah, and we've all seen that Promo. Code Field Taunted US AT CHECKOUT RIGHT? 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I didn't have anyone with me was just her and I but I had to do interviews sporadically throughout that period and I found that when I took her to a news station or whatever that because people were excited that I'm there. Because I'm on TV they were then very excited that she was there. So she was getting an amount of attention that is just abnormal for a child together right and so her response to it was to talk in baby talk and for the first two days of the trip I I didn't realize it at the time I was personally embarrassed that people thought my three year old spoke baby talk, right? So I kinda I'd be telling her like your normal voice or. Maybe answering the I kept trading, encourage her to speak normally, and then all of a sudden occurred to me on day two of the trip I'm like, Oh, this is this is my ego. I'm embarrassed that my kid who represents me speaks baby talk and I'm afraid all these people think that I've taught my child how to talk and I was like that's all my baggage. This is a mechanism she's created to help her deal with this abnormal situation this works for. Her. And they just stayed out of it but it was really hard and recognize that that's how frail my ego was. It's hard not to feel frail when it's your kids and especially if it's not just a question of being embarrassed for your kids if you're worried for your kids or sad for your kids, it is a you know it's impossible not to feel bad let's just put it out there. Yeah it's it's really hard. I'm wondering, could you walk us through? A couple but like let's let's just I, acknowledge the historic role of children right I personally grew up in the Midwest. So Ida Detest Cornet twelve in the summers and I remember maybe eight years ago seeing sixty minutes piece about how we need to get these agricultural laws to not include children and the way it was presented and I love sixty minutes. I was like, Oh, if I had not had the experience where I'd to tasseled Cornyn wanted to and it was a right of passage in my family and I earned a bunch of money I could never earn it twelve. Had I not had that experience be watching this going what the fuck we still child labor. Sign you know and detestably now? Think twelve year olds right I was just kinda shocked with that. I just luckily had an experience with it where I was like, Oh, I can't really trust that. But you know historically right children have held jobs, the children they were responsible for a ton right were an asset. You know there's the expression now that they are economically worthless than emotionally worth the time. But of course, you would have a lot of kids. First of all the other thing that's different is that we choose to have the kids write it used to be the kids came along you got married or worse for the women who weren't married and along came a kid and it's not like you were saying this is key. Stage of my life and I want to have somebody I can share it with and teach, and it was just along came the kids and so that was maybe one of the reasons that we weren't obsessed with parenting because it was inevitable. It wasn't this the life I certainly chose to have my kids. So they were valuable and as we were discussing earlier, it's not that you wouldn't care is they wouldn't die, but it would have A. Lot of them and a lot of them wouldn't make it. I was reading uncle Tom's cabin finally last summer and one of the characters there's a runaway a mom with her child who's like three or four years old and she ends up in a quaker house and the quaker mom goes and opens the drawer and Harriet Beecher spouses the drawer that all of us have the drawer of the clothing of the child who died at A. Certain age and this mom, the quaker mom gives the clothing, the runaway slave for her three or four year old. But reading that phrase it's like I didn't realize everybody has a drawer like that one hundred or two hundred years ago because you knew going experience the worst thing. Maybe that's what steeled people a little more not didn't hurt as much but that we were all going to go through this and if you want to be a Parent or you are apparent your info four devastation, and now we hope that we're not in for devastation. I sure hope none of us are in for devastation I. Hope our listeners are devastation but some of us are, and now that just seems weird and it must have been your fault because the rest of us are not devastated. Yeah I think Abraham Lincoln right here I know for sure they were dealing the death of one child but. The second. Three out of four, did not make it to adulthood and nobody said Wow why a bad dad did you see what Abe is doing all my God. alcott myself. In this group I don't think a modern parent could hold a job having lost three of four children. I couldn't go I mean that's how much it's evolved dry. I there's no way could be running a war right? I don't know if they're all dead by the time he's running the more but that changes your level of investment, right? So if you know that it might. Not Make it or they're there to tassell mourn whatever you're. You're maybe not thinking I should ask a Lotta questions when they're so that their brains star like I think a lot of this has to do with science on cognitive ability like I think the reason there's all these questions and you've got to be interacting and stuff is because parents feel like that's going to develop their brain. and. I think. There is science on that although I am just saying that I don't know that for sure. But I feel like they think like if you ask, why did you pick yellow? It'll make no start thinking Oh, why did I pick yellow and then that will grow Their cognitive ability. So I do think it's an investment. It's like I'm going to do everything I can now so that they can have the best future possible even more than danger I think that's the intention, and then the question is what's the outcome, which now there seems to be a lot of data in on the outcome of that which you know a lot about. Right I do and once again, I want to preface this by saying like now it's going to sound like this was the right way, and this is the wrong way, and once again, there isn't a right way a wrong way. I'm just trying dial back a little bit of the anxiety and that doesn't mean that I'm not an anxious parent myself about exactly the right way. To do it and monarch I think you're talking about there was some study that said kids in affluent households here three million more words by the time they're out of diapers then and then less fortunate kids and that's how they get ahead and so that became this. Oh my God I was talking to a lady who ran a daycare center in Oregon Washington and she. Got Demerits for some thinks that the daycare center had an and this is the idea that you can be perfect and there's a recipe and one of the reasons she got demerits is because sometimes when her daycare workers were changing the kid's diapers, they weren't logging it as they did at see I'm taking off your diaper. Now I'm taking the tape the tape makes us out. And the other piece of tape makes us on ch they sound the same because it's two sides of the same type or which side the right side begins with our and the left side left begins la La La l. you know and I thought what could drive a human being crazy I mean whether the kid is being driven crazy or the poor daycare worker who has to be a midnight DJ talking you're filling the air with a two month old the entire time, and this gets back to the whole idea that first of all, we're using science instead of any. kind of intuition in terms of how we can be raising our kid and that there is a perfect way to raise the kid and then what I really see happening is that we just don't have any trust in anything except ourselves like we don't trust that the kid would be curious on their own or that the kid is absorbed maybe that's good enough or if the kid is playing with her friend and they have this squabble that they can figure it out or if she does come home in tears that the next day, she can go back with her friend and. They can be playing tag again it's like nothing happens successfully nothing happens at a high enough level unless we're there and I told you Peter Gray is one of the co founders of let grow and the talks about the importance of play and when kids are playing and adults are organizing it. They're always they're cutting to the chase like let's get to the play part. Already you know and my friend had his son at a playground, his ten year old son and it was two hours and the DAD said, okay come on. Let's go home been two hours in the kids. Said Dad had. Now we're just about to start a war. So two hours had been spent in angry negotiations. We think that's not fair. That's too far and your team is better Hachem I don't get to wear the green shirt or whatever it is, and if there was an adult, they're making it a perfect experience. You know like smoothing it out and getting to the fun already so that you don't waste two hours just angry with your friends and there might be some hurt feelings. Those two hours were the important part of the play has learning how to get along compromise. Dating, yes, fairness this isn't working. Let's vote. Is this fair I mean like I really think it's the fundamentals of democracy are learned when you have to make sure that everyone is having a good enough time that all quit and go home they oddly mirror the early hunting and gathering societies and that kind of egalitarian because they are operating in and around without status kind yet. So if one person's Alpine it and two other people can band together and overthrow one Alpha like it keeps it very gala -Tarian but we're probably inclined to get in there and make it lasts with good intention. We just don't give credit again to anything that's going on. That is just happening between kids unless we see that it's building their vocabulary or making the day super fun or making sure everybody feels okay and it's funny. You mentioned the hunter gatherers because you would with your anthropology degree but that's what Peter Gray has studied. The most other cultures don't even have the word for play because what kids are doing is they're watching somebody make an arrowhead or somebody make a pot, and then maybe they have a little bit of flint next to them and they try to do it and play is being engaged in something. That's interesting unusually what kids want. To do is have fun with their friends and also try to become grownup they WANNA be big. So soon as we brought this baby home from hospital, you're naturally you have some anxiety about keeping this little subway sandwich healthy. So you can't tell you how many times in my head I replayed this film we watched while studying Papa New Guinea I remember even then being shocked with like the kids were on their own and I'm talking there are two year olds attempting to climb a tree and there are three year olds high in the tree and had I not seen in saw with my own eyes like those kids didn't die crazy percentage like they. Know How to do that, and I was just constantly when I was trying to propel myself or steel myself into leading Lincoln climb on Shit and fall on stuff just like just remember that video you saw and all those kids you know made it at the same level, but I just want to say because I think it'd be really helpful for us to kind of maybe dispel some of the things that we fear. So your list of things which I love is fighting the belief that our children are in constant danger from creeps. Kidnapping Germs, grades, flashers, frustrations, failure baby snatchers, bugs bullies men's sleepovers in the perils of a non organic grape I. think is brilliant. I. Just want to start with one again, I learned it in anthro but I had this class on witchcraft and the teacher happened to say how many people do you think have been poisoned by Halloween candy or received a razor blade sharp sharp object, and now my childhood that was already happening they were setting up like scanning at the fire department and school would host a silly trick or treat thing. Guessing. Thousand. Of she said, there has never ever ever once been a case of stranger pudding poison or a sharp object in Halloween candy. There have been sharp objects in poison put in by parents to injure their own children. There's never been a stranger that blew my mind. You've other stats like that over these kind of legends we all live in fear of that aren't. Even real. Yeah I do. But I I WANNA talk about the poison candy for a second 'cause there was the one case and it was a father in Texas who had taken out three not one not two but three insurance policies on his son and he put strychnine. Pixie. Stick and sure enough the kid died and this was quickly discovered because nobody else. Is Dying from poison candy. But what's interesting to me is he like you before you read that statistic must have thought Oh there's so many kids getting poisoned every Halloween you know what's one more just throw it on the pirates another Jimmy and it's too bad the from Texas this year. So really he himself had ingested as it were this urban myth that. The kids were dying right and left from Macabre neighbors who gave poison to the kids that they said, hi to rest of the year and then didn't even have the fun of watching them ride in pain and die because the kids were back home. That was always my point like who who commits a crime they can't witness. I don't get it right? It's. Talk about miss that now that there's all the injectables and gummy bears with hot them that breezy adults are giving his like. Are you kidding? That's expensive. There's no upside to giving this away. Maybe they're just isn't I'm trying to think would there be an upside knowing that some kid was getting high on Gummy bear someplace far away I don't think so unless you witnessed it and then they fell in the bathtub and then they you know if they did something funny that there was some story. Throw capital. Yes. Yes. There's nothing wrong tack. Sponsored by the neighbor that's right Y- other boogeyman stranger danger is a terrible idea. It's a terrible notion that has colonized our brains and I think in part is because it rhymes. There's actually studies done that when things rhyme, they seem more real and the vast vast vast majority of crimes against kids and I don't even like thinking about crimes against kids are perpetrated by people they know. Right. So the idea stranger danger is first of all, pointing you're in the wrong direction and secondly taking away somebody who could help your kid if God forbid you know your kid is walking down the street and there's that White van which by the way I think white fans must be like ten percent of all cars out there anyway out the. White van is following him really slowly, and the guy is saying I've got a puppy got candy got balloons at which point if the kid has been told don't trust any strangers he's stuck. But if he knows that most people are good and he sees somebody across the street and she's getting her mail from her mailbox or he even a he 'cause. I think most he's are perfectly great to he's raking leaves you run across the street and you stand next to that person and you say there's a creep in van going by I'm just GonNa, stand your or on the street you run into a store and say, I'm GonNa. Wait here I use your phone and I don't even like the advice that. Sometimes given that says race safe stranger because I don't think people turn into unsafe strangers just because a kid says, can I stand? You know all you could stand here but now that I have you I guess I'll kidnap you I mean it's unusual to think that it would be weird that the guy raking leaves is going to murder you you know. He's in cahoots with the gentleman and the White Van. Gogh Warsaw Lenore, right right. Right. So you freak him out and then he'll come. I'll get the rope like A. Step. Did you cro- yeah. We're obsessed with, HOW SMART CROWS My husband will bring in the crow box. That made a crow box, train them with the CHEETOS, so they start coming. I could just get the cheetos easily and then there's a little cover over the cheetos box and they have to stand in a certain place and that. The. and. Then finally they have date there's quarters on the top and they realize like, Oh, I kicked in the quarter and the box open, and there's all the cheetos and then finally you make them find their own tim quarters and quarter like a vending machine. That's. Obsession. Is You want to hang out with your husband Valley. Oh. My goodness what are the odds of this? They're in the millions to one so this is the crow box. This where the cheetos would go. Top across there and the away. On and this is an easy place for them to stand and that. Cover the entire ground like they're cheetos. So they get used to coming to the CHEETOS air and they think that grow their. Own Snickers Farm, and then it turned out that where was spending our summer. We see crow like once every eight days. So it's perhaps not the right place but yes, fabricate that whole thing or is that a key? There's some parts that you get. That are made from Three D. Printer, but you had to put any took him like we have to grows at seem to be taking up residence at our house and I love. Cros. So Monica have been trying to think of what eight step problem we could do that actually benefits but seems like your husband's heinous figure out how to get rich is actually not his genius neighbors genius. So you have to have on your podcast. Next is Josh Klein jace call our local genius do you know him? Okay Google Josh Klein and crows all we ne- we. Josh. So we're GONNA earmark that we're going to hang legit. Okay. What were we talking about before the crew cab? Crows, how to raise itself self-reliant Independent Crows I remember what we were talking about we're talking about boogeyman. Because I did want to own one of my own that in anticipation of talking to you I agree with you across the board. But the one thing I thought of is you know the numbers for be molested again, this is very ego centric in that I was molested. So I have a unique I for. Oh, that's okay. One in five is the least estimate. One in four is another one that there's some consensus around. But let's just say twenty to twenty five percent say far too many. Yeah. Yeah. Like a staggering amount epidemic. At that one in anticipation of talking to you I was like that one is the one I still am crazy vigilant probably overly vigilant about but I anticipated your retort and I feel like you'll tell me. Yeah. But it's ninety percent of that is people you know our trust would that be your response it wouldn't be dismissed it would be I would give you a tip that I think is really helpful. Please by May you know all my information is not right out of my brain. It's just from talking to other people. anyways there's something called the three Rs and Because yes, the vast majority of crimes against kids including molestation will because not by a stranger. But by somebody they know teaching your kids stranger danger is not going to help them as much teaching them the three RS which are recognised, resist, and report recognize you teach your kids and supposedly you can start this as early as age three just like you teach kids to stop drop and roll is not going to make them terrified that any second they might catch on fire right? It's just good advice. So recognized nobody can touch you where you're bathing suit covers on. That's okay. Resist anybody bothers you you don't have to be nice. You can kick run scream pull their hair hit them resist because that really will help you in a lot of cases but then maybe the most important one is report and by report I mean tell your kids that if something happens to them that makes them feel bad or sad they can talk to you about it and even if somebody says, this is our secret you can tell me and nothing bad will happen to I won't be mad at you. I won't blame you just tell me and I'm here to help you and there's no secrets except for fun secrets, there's going to be a party in our surprise party for mom. And recognizing like a kid will definitely know then this is wrong and resisting is good but the reporting ideas so great because it takes away the secrecy that a molester is depending on its his best asset is like this is our secret don't tell your mom will be mad at you. You know I'll kill you. If you tell you can always tell me and it'll be okay I've stumbled into that. I've said them yes. You should never ever see another adults genitalia on there. There's no reason for adult to have their penis. So they're regina out around you. If it happens I, want to leave that area. And then I get to the secrecy part and I. Go you know nobody can kill me I challenge him if they say, I'll kill your dad if you tell bringing on I can't wait. To tell them like it can't. Send them my way. You're right. You're right you. You're not always going to be there in two. To not give them the tools to to navigate the situations seems like probably the most vulnerable you could make your case. It's not only that you're not always going to be there. It's that you want them to have this power right and you feel less terrified if you've empowered them this way because you've given them a very practical roadmap for how to stay safe and if God forbid that doesn't happen, you're still not going to blame them and you're not going to blame yourself because you've been. Doing what you cannon the other thing is that parents are so afraid that something bad will happen to their kids at their with their kids all the time you sort of have to recognize that most of the time they're going to be okay and you're going to equip them to rise to certain occasions. Obviously, I'm not blaming anybody forever being molested and I think it's also relevant to bring up so that people have it as control in their head, which is the chemicals in your body for fear. Are Stronger, they're stronger chemicals than than the reward chemicals, right Cortisol and adrenaline. So that is something everyone should be aware of like, Oh, I'm having kind of an outsized reaction to this and that's by design. So I don't eat. Eat, poisonous berries right. You must run everything through like this little reduction motto you're like Okay I'm very fearful of this. It's probably worst case scenario half as bad as I'm fearful it is just minimally probably how do you help our parents work through that? First of all you're totally right about the different chemicals also not only does risk loom larger then reward, but we also have very little sense of how we will be able to recover from anything bad ever happening. We assume that we never will and actually were more resilient than that, and so our kids, which is why going back to that parents magazine example if your kid has a spat with a friend, that's not the. End of her relationships with the world or even with that friend she's going to recover but we don't realize that really the fear and the anticipation of misery could be far bigger than what the actual cases but in terms of poisonous berries and a lion that's interesting to me because until we had photography until the modern era, the only dangers that we were exposed to were real dangers in our neighborhood an immediate threat that Bush don't eat from that Bush I saw Harry eight from that Bush and he is no more and Lyon climbed the tree lines can't climb trees right? The females can't the leopards take their prey up there because the lines camp but the point being that. Very recently all the dangers that we were warned about or that imprinted themselves on our brain terribly scary were local threats that could very well happen to us. Now. You know you're seeing the worst stories from around the country every day you know a horrible story that happened in Florida and you're watching in California a horrible story from thirty years ago. But now there's a mini series powder it, and so it's back on your screen. There's a frequency distortion, right? Even I succumb to some guy rescued his three-year-old from amount line in Northern California and I'm Larry like, yeah. I gotTa have my plan of Defense because they're mountain lions where we Live, of course, this is like one attack in probably forty years on a child and the child didn't die because to your point. You're not ever learning the rule. The news doesn't come on and go ninety, nine, point nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, percent of people didn't die today, right? That's not the headline, right? It's nice. It's the exception to the rule that makes lines and it's misleading it's very misleading and the backstory for as you know is that I let my nine. Year old ride the subway alone and afterwards, people would say to me like don't you watch law and order it's really really relevant. Yeah just. So in order of events, you your nine year old had expressed some interest in doing this and you talked over their husband and you guys live in New York in you let him ride the subway and then about a month and a half gone by, and then in that time it had come up between parents or whoever else and people. Were shocked to the point where you thought Oh, I'm going to write an article about it. So then you wrote an article five or six weeks later, and then it became a big star, right? Right nobody my friends didn't really care but yet nine year old very interested in public transportation. That's what we're on all the time because we live in New York City has an older brother who's eleven who didn't ask to take the subway at age nine now he calls himself control. Group. She snarky anyway. So yeah, the the nine year old was pastoring I would say you know this is something I'm ready for he never said it in those words nobody talks that way when they're nine but he said, you know I wanna do it. Can I do it and one sunny Sunday? I took him to a department store in a nice part of town New York City and Let. Him Take subway home to us and in the aftermath of that after wrote the column about it and was on a lot of talk shows people would reference things like the one about the horrible story of the Kid. I don't even WanNa talk about it but as a kid who was stolen from a bus stop in one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, nine, and this was two, thousand and something. And because what you're talking about how your brain find stories it's the availability heuristic you've heard of that. It's how easily available story is to your brain and how vivid is because there's pictures there's videos that go along with it in your brain makes you think it's more frequent, right? Your brain isn't going like well, that was seventy nine I wonder how many children have been born since then Which I actually have done the statistics one, hundred, eighty, million children. Thank you since then so you can't imagine one hundred and eighty million kids waiting at a bus stop you can only imagine the one kid who store you know, and so that becomes your guiding principle like well, I don't want to be like that. It's like the extreme odds are that that won't happen stay tuned for more armchair. We are supported by Article Do they make delicious array of furniture? 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Now, there's a three and one x fully made of red t and see we'd extract. Caused boxes shipped to your door free and the experience of receiving it is one of the best parts it's just like Christmas arrives, right? Yeah. It's so exciting when that box comes your or did your birthday is I encourage all armed cherries to go to 'cause box dot com and use your Kodak's to get twenty percents off their first box that's caused box dot com slash decks go there now and enjoy the splendor. Will. You run Monica through the question of if you were to leave your child unintended outside Sure my favorite staff Monica. If for some reason, you wanted your theoretical child to be kidnapped by a stranger. How long would you have to keep? Let's call it a her. Okay. How long did you have to keep her outside unattended for this to be statistically likely to happen? How long would you have to keep the kid outside without you watching over her for her to get kidnapped right five years first of all I. GotTa. Say I love you for that because so many people say five minutes role I'm also aware that I'm going to get trapped way to own your BIOS DAX. Would you like to give the actual none what I was hoping you'd asked me well those because I'm devious. I was wondering if you're GonNa ask me this and then I already knew the answer and I was Gonna go man a lot like, say like six, hundred, thousand. I was GONNA come close at six hundred. Seven hundred seven hundred fifty thousand years but I guess six, hundred thousand. Years really going Berserk. Five. Kids a year. Yeah. So wow. Seven hundred that's insane because it's like how many powerball tickets would you have to buy to be statistically likely to win a powerball but the thing about playing the lottery and the thing about worrying about kids that we go to you know we know the picture of the person with giant Czech and we know the picture of the missing kids and it's very hard to square that with reality and I remember long ago somebody wrote to the blog and said I don't care if the odds are one in a billion, that's not a risk I'm going. To take, and that is upsetting to me because first of all of one in a billion aren't odds, I mean it's a billion to one. It's just incredibly unlikely that you will be the one and then there's the assumption that there's a not opposite side like I will take zero risk and like there's nothing that zero risk unless they're living in a house that's carpeted and one floor, and all the food is put through a food processor before your kid drinks it and you're making sure that the straw has I don't know cushioned tip and there's No allergens and there's no stairs to fall down and there's risk in everyday life, but it's very minimal and somehow when it's a risk with you sitting there, it's not considered a risk, but it's a risk and you're not there. We're back to this God thing why weren't you watching over? It's all your fault. So no matter how much you can't predict something bad happening if it happens when you're with the kid, you get a pass if it doesn't if you're not there, you're evil. You're. So right this I think is very consistent with just human. Thinking in general, which is highly flawed. The thing I always spiral about if avoiding death is the PECs of our concern which I would argue it should be avoiding death the notion that we would prioritize three trillion dollars of our resources to fight terrorism, which is something kill one in I. Don't know what it is. Two million people verses how many people will certainly die of cancer or heart disease. It's such a staggering difference that you have to meet like. Wow. So I guess the way in which we die as heavily biased are here at how we're. Going to die it's a cognitive hiccup. It's one that has to be recognized not rooted in anything sane. So when you're pursuing the protecting them from a one and billion odds, what most certainly is happening is that time you're not preparing them for the thing that is a forty percent odds of that happening to them right now, what we were talking about that earlier when we were talking about stranger danger versus teaching them the three RS three hours you're preparing for something that is statistically far more likely than a stranger kidnapping your kid off the street. It's usually what we're of his dramatic and once again, we're talking about the availability heuristic which such a terrible word for how easy it is to picture how many times did you see the Twin Towers falling each time? Your brain actually registered that as another time not in it rationally knows that those towers were the only two there were thousands of them, but you've seen it so much and it's so easy to think of and you get so angry and there's someone to blame versus heart disease you and heart disease his longtime from now and it's Gradual and you can't picture all those people at the time didn't put their pictures on the front page those we have lost. So we really get this very skewed picture and what we've got a really skewed picture of lately is that our kids are in danger whenever there at the bus stop whenever they're walking to school whenever they're at the park, and so that has changed childhood to the point where there always has to be somebody with them, and if you ask about what are the other facts of this, what are the unintended consequences than we? Get back to the idea that kids are kind of depressed and kind of passive and kind of anxious because they haven't realized that they could deal with a mean dog or gotten lost and found their way back or fallen off their bike and had to come home limping, and if you don't know that you can handle anything because there's always somebody there intervening and helping you that is a disempowering distressing demoralizing weight live right so I wanna make a quick analogy maybe that I find helpful which is the amount of fear and thought and energy put into. A napping or molesting or this or that right? None of that thought none of that thought goes into how am I gonNA drive the car today to school. Now driving the car to school today, it will be the most dangerous thing. Your kid does improbably its entire childhood and no one no one lives in fear of driving their car. So the question is why and I believe the answer is because it's a necessity they've gone you know what? Whatever that statistic is fucking dry kid to school. Right so once it becomes, I, have to I think you right size. The fear of the outcome you're shaking your head no, shaking my head. I'm interested in that first of all, it's not an assessing often people are living. So close to the school that the kid could walk two blocks, there's a school in Kansas, the superintendent Moscow Kansas I got in touch with me one of the kids to start his students to start doing things on their own because he said from his office in the school on the town of four hundred, he could see the kids houses and yet the parents were driving them to school. So that's not necessity. So that's a little misconception. But why are they worrying about kidnapping and not driving and I think it gets back to what we were talking about earlier with the expectations for MOMS and stuff is that if your child is kidnapped, it's 'cause you weren't there. So you get no sympathy you should have been there. Why weren't you there? It's all your fault. If you're in a car and you run into a light pole or your t-boned by a drunk driver at least she were there. One thing feels avoidable. One thing feels unavoidable as far as like how much gail you're gonNA take on and chain, right but pie guilt is because we're you present or not, and you're supposed to be so present in your kids lives that nothing could happen to them if something happens to them while you're present well, at least you were doing what you're supposed to do. Right so you were with the kid it's just too bad that there was a car accident, but you were doing your job as a mom by letting your kid. Walk the two blocks in Moscow Kansas to your school. Yeah. The I was going to try to end that thought was just simply everyone even if they do have to drive to work. Okay let's say it's Cecil drive to work. So they're not worried at all about driving to work, but they're very worried about terrorism and the explanation I believe is I have to drive to work once I've decided that it's inevitable. I'll be driving a car worrying about it is a waste of time I'm going to have to. Do, a write your brain recognizes that that that would be a waste of your fear because you're gonNA have to do it regardless whether you want to or not. Now I, think if we were to recognize the necessity of our kids learning the skills that will help them navigate the world without you. If we saw that as a foregone conclusion that they have to have these skills, they have to learn to navigate the have to learn to talk to people they have to learn to get over heartbreak bad grades. Here. If we saw that is inevitable I, think we could build on it in the same way that we build on relegating our fear of driving to the stratosphere. I. Totally love that framing. So let grow we have a slogan we have a bunch of slogans. One of them is when adults step back, kids step up but really our tagline or whatever is independence is critical part of childhood. We've thrown it out the window because it seems so much less important than being with them all the time either to say the three million words war to encourage them or. To make sure that they're safe and independence is this eaten Miss, building block of who you become and to ignore it because we're more afraid of the equivalent of terrorists, which is the kidnapper or a bully or something untoward happening to your kid it's like not feeding them. It's like not giving them air was always a part of childhood like when you were talking about the hunter gatherers, the two year olds shimmying the tree trying to follow the three year olds. There was always an expectation that kids could do somethings on their own they were going to get into scrapes. They were going to have some disappointments and betrayals frustrations, and that was to the good not something horrible happening to them not a real trauma but the give and take of learning to get along in the world I was Gonna read you one seventh grade teacher on Long Island did grow project kids are sent home to do something on their own, and that's to push the parents to let them go and do something. But I wanted to read you what these saddened graders which are twelve and thirteen year olds run on a little sheet of paper what she asked. Them. Is there anything that you were hesitant to do? So troubled thirteen year olds I wasn't comfortable going into a crowded store with a bunch of strangers without my mom I was hesitant to use a sharp knife as my parents had never let me I I was hesitant to try walking my dog along because I was scared he would get loose from the leash. I was afraid to climb a tree these different kids I was afraid to try doing a whealy on my bike because I was scared I might hurt myself I was afraid to try and cook because there's And I could get hurt. So these are parents who have kept their kids safe right safe from the haven't been kidnapped. They haven't been taken in a terrorist attack but to not know how to use a sharp knife must feel pretty damn bad. If you're twelve or thirteen years old and you're looking at, wow, these adults can use sharp knives but not me what I hear in that list is these kids feel so vulnerable, they're afraid to go into a store they're afraid to do this, and then whole point was safety to the opposite they feel incredibly vulnerable. The same truth with when you talk about, you know psychologists use a technique called exposure. If you have a phobia of something like you're afraid of spiders and then they now you're in the same room as a spider I've been pitching immersion therapy for Monica snake fear. Well, you don't want to hear the details in the emergent their. Emerging Their Bruce anyways. Yes. So what you've done is you've created kids who are safe but who don't know that they're safe from anything I, mean they're afraid one kid said he wasn't this was an affluent suburban part of Long Island and the way I describe it as the French bakery is across the street from the olive oil store. So you know. So but one kid wasn't willing to walk to their because he had to cross over the train tracks and it's like the idea that you couldn't look both ways and listen you know and be aware enough to keep yourself from walking in front of a moving train, which only comes there. Once an hour is distressing to me because what the parents have done is crippled their kids they have removed like Jenga all the. Bravery curiosity the courage the will to try something new and it's this rickety structure that's left that thinks I can't use a knife. I. Could get hurt. Why have we done that and and you asked at the beginning how we get this point? You know we've really been taking all of parents playing upon their fears whether it's because we want to run an article that will make you buy the magazine like you know these things are. Going to kill your kids or you want parents to buy the baby kneepads, which are a real thing the third guards which you put on your kid when they're learning to title all, we had a big war at my house. I didn't WanNA order but pads when they were learning roller skate none none your is a pad. It's been designed as a people person to be your pad you. We don't need an auxiliary pad I didn't. Actually know but ted. So this is an informative conversation for me. Well, okay. I have a personal selfish thing I want your opinion on and this is to persuade my wife I notice this pattern on where all of a sudden she enjoyed kicking the soccer ball right and she wanted to do with me in the driveway all the time and I loved it and she loved it and we were doing it every night and then almost. Oh she liked soccer. Let's. We got to sign her up for a soccer team right? So we signed her up and then she doesn't enjoy it right for any number of reasons. Then it becomes as big ethical dilemma of we'll. Now we're going to teach her you know she's committed to something she must follow through bubble. Then it's this whole other secondary thing and then she likes gymnastics she's doing cartwheels about. Well, we gotta get on and I've started to favor the opinion of like is it okay to just like the fucking thing and not get an expert involved in? Not achieve some strata of accomplishment and then a company with the trophy like don't we turn these things that they like into this really weird architecture of attainment I don't love it. What are your thoughts on that I think you just articulated everything that I think the idea that something taught to a child by an expert is better than a something that a kid just likes to do and practices and does is false unless you think your kids are Olympia olympics-bound, which I don't why reason that sometimes put kids and things is because there's no kids left to play with. Play soccer. She's playing with you or nobody because everybody else's in their soccer league, but I was listening to your interview with. I can't remember was Jessica Lahey or Jonathan Height and one of the other that was talking about intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation and what you're talking about with your daughter is that she was in love with a soccer ball and likes tumbling and she likes doing cartwheels and she's doing them because it's fun and she's practicing because she likes getting better and that's intrinsic. And extrinsic is out. It's Thursday four get in the car we gotta go get to Olympics or whatever gymnastics, and then somebody saying you know we have to start out with fifteen jumping jacks and it becomes a class. It becomes something. So external and wants to get Peter Gray site to study where they asked kindergartners who were given a day of there was circle. Time when everybody shared something and there was reading when the teacher read Aloud Book and there was finger painting when everybody got to finger paint and there was recess and they asked the kids at the end of the day what was working what was play and play was recess and everything else was work because an adult said, now we'RE GOING TO BE IN A. Circle at adult chose the book and adult decided when it started and when finished, and now you have to finger paint with light finger paint or not. So what you're taking his play and you're turning it into nobody would call it work but there's an adult they're you're sorta getting grades you managed you know you're expected to attend. They don't have agency anymore, agency. On the playground, right right. So to me, you know some of childhood can remain childhood without it being taught to them and one of things. That's interesting me lately, and I'm going to ask both of you this question and I don't have a total theory yet but I feel like if you have enough free time in childhood, you discover something that you like to do that. You might still be doing as an adult if you're lucky if you get to pursue it, is there something you? Did as a kid that you still sorta see yourself doing some activity that turned you on Oh a Monaco first acting I started when I was in ninth grade I, guess wasn't wouldn't be kid necessarily no, no vector counts right like thirteen fourteen. So that's still happening almost everything I liked yeah in elementary still do like I raced BMX bikes, announced motorcycles, and a all my hobbies are virtually whatever adding horsepower to fifth grade thing was literally yeah they can I play devil's advocate on this. your role I disagree I really disagree with this because I think it's really you know we had just had Angela Duckworth on Grit I really agree with her on you should be having challenges that are just above your level so that you will attain those with hardware and then you will feel the reward of hard work and I think that is so crucial and it doesn't mean you're going to be doing gymnastics forever. It's the goal of just achieving the next step and what does it feel like to achieve the next up what in that for me is empowerment? It's like, Oh, I wanted something and I worked hard and I got it. But that's not in opposition to what I'm saying and I don't think well, she's saying. My Bmx bike there was just a field and there were many jumps in my goal was to get to do a double and then do a triple and then to get higher and then to learn to spend the bike, but there was no adult saying, okay decks. The next step is this like I still was setting goals for myself but they were my goals I was accomplishing them but it depends on what you're doing right as someone who was a cheerleader I would not feel comfortable being. Go, learn how to do about cancer on your own. That's not a good idea right but the question was, did you drive it? Did you express an interest in learning that back? And then go to an expert that could. or Did your mom say no, Oh, you like rolling around. You'RE GONNA learn tobacco handspring. That's how you accomplish this person's going to do it, and then the they're in charge you're done thinking yeah I agree it should come from the kid for sure but I also think it shouldn't be like go on your own challenge yourself or all be the teacher today for you that will help you with your back handspring outsource that to a teacher if they're interested but I yeah, I agree don't just. Throw them in any old thing right there could be things that kids do WanNa do teachers maybe they you know they like drawing and they wanna take a painting class. I'm not saying don't enrich kids lives and ignore all their interests, but you don't have to take any interest and turn it into a thing that is supervised in structured by an adult. That's not necessary and when you think about the history of the world, my favorite do know what Albert Einstein did as a kid for fun tennis. Probably did both of those but what he spent a lot of his time on according to wikipedia is building houses out of cards, card houses, which you can't. First of all, they didn't throw them into Card House school, which is probably good but sadly, it looks like a stupid waste of time. Right? Why is this kid? He seemed smart or maybe he seems dumb is just there in the corner with a deck of cards, he's not even playing cards he's not multiplying the numbers of the cars he's just trying to build something, and then you think like while what was he doing? He was learning a little bit of physics patients. Frustration, tolerance, you know they always fall right so kids can like meander too weird entrusts things that seem pointless things that might seem a little dangerous and not terribly dangerous, but a little risky climbing the tree and they will keep pushing themselves because that's what interest kids, right it's no fun to keep doing the same thing that's why we all hate playing go fish it's boring. We know how to do it already. So I won't worry that a kid who likes flipping is going to level out because they don't have a teacher but if they wanted teacher and they wanna go to the next step and you could afford a teacher go ahead. I think that's my thing is just letting them drive that I think the better move would have been to let my daughter play soccer as long as she wanted, and if she said I, want to join a team because my girlfriend's on one. Then now my only push back on all this is, and I actually don't think it's what you're saying but I think for someone that might interpret it this way I want to call it out, which is I. Hate all parenting advice because to me what I hate about it is I have two daughters holy. Shit are they different? The first one learns to ride a motorcycle at three years old the second. One. I was nervous. If she just crossed the living room, you know she had his big old had and not as coordinated she had stitches before she was to the other one. I. Still have yet to see fall of anything and she's seven. So they're just dramatically different. Clearly, I need to have two different game plans for these two kids but I don't think years ignores that but just address I don't ignore that but I actually think that you have the same game plan, which is see what the kid is like right roll with that. So that doesn't strike me as two different game plans. It's just like okay a little more supervision or you know. Whatever you're GONNA do you don't have to do the same thing with both of them and I think that actually recognizing how different your kids are is a way of. A little bit as a parent to because you can see that it's not your parenting that made her coordinator uncoordinated right or enough soccer or hate soccer or reading or not. I mean it's just they come with a lot of parts installed already. Yeah. Okay. So now let grow is the foundation that you have with a few other folks and there's a different components of it. Right so I I don't know if you'd call it a curriculum, but you have advice for schools who want to get involved with let- grow. Yeah right we have a couple of school initiatives yeah, and they're free. One is electro product is the teachers send the kids home with the homework assignment do something on your own, and it really is to make sure that parents finally let their kid use a knife or walk to town or make dinner or something like that. Because for ten years before I started like row, I had started free range kids an electrode around the country talking about why have we gotten? To the point where we don't trust our kids to do anything on their own and everybody would not along and nothing changed it's really hard to be the one to send your kid to the park. When you're worried that you know your neighbors going to say, that's wrong and somebody might call nine, one one and your kid won't find anyone there to play with. So if everybody had a school. All the kids from kindergarten up through fifth grader even up through eighth grade like with this middle school are sending their kids to do some things on their own. You're not crazy. In fact, you have to do it to fit in an towns that have done this. We've for great stories about kids now being outside on their own again like riding their bikes and skateboards roller skates you see them. In the park and they're not all in a uniform. So when a school classroom or better still on entire district does electro project free free free it really changes the kids, the parents, the neighborhood. So we recommend that because how you'RE GONNA get culture change without changing behavior if you're an administrator and you happen to be in the show or would people go to get involved Oh my thank you DAX. To let grow dot Org, and then you can look up in the school section and the other let grow initiative for schools that we have is the let grow play club, which is the school staying open for free play before after school mixed stage kids a bunch of junk around and call it loose parts but is really just junk there's balls, there's jump ropes, there's cardboard boxes there's old long horns whatever probably lawnmowers bad idea and kids can just play with them and what's really great is that mixed age play turns out to be something else that. We've taken out of kids lives right. If your kid is going to gymnastics, she's not going to the five through fifteen year old gymnastics. She's going to the five and six year old gymnastics and I'll tell you this study that was done at a school that was doing the rope play club before school all these ages would mix together. First of all, we went and interviewed the kids. One Kid said the most poignant thing to me, which is I said, how is what do you like about the play club and he said well, now I have friends. That's a really big thing, and and one of the reasons is that if you are the awkward nine year old at school but you're the one who comes to play club and you give the five year old piggyback rides and then come to school the next day and it's like they're. Recess so it can really change your entire. To hate school, and this is a way to make some of them like it and I wanted to say something about the liberal project to which is that kids who might not be doing well in school we did this a title one school. A title one is a lot of low income kids at a school and one kid came in every week and he was working on his ambitious vehicle which was taking. Yeah he's really adorable and was taking. Yeah. So anyway, she was taking this little tykes wagon and trying to figure out if he adds noodles to it, will it sink and then it was listening to this little kids but hang on his stories every week like how is it going this week and well, it got out but then it started to sink and I had a weighed in and get it, and this kid is not necessarily you know Mr Math Mr you now spelling bee champion, but he had a way to be doing something. That his classmates and his teacher recognized as education as learning as succeeding, and so this was a way that all the kids could succeed. Even the ones who might be really struggling with the worksheets and it was so transformative because school is really narrow. What it's teaching is academic but kids are really wide and they like their BMX bikes and they like doing their gymnastics and there's no way to credit that in a normal course of the day in the grades and in the report card but so. This is just a way of engaging the kids and celebrating the fact that they're Quirky Mike. We studied this now what all the weird do things that kids were learning during Kovic because they had no school or they had limited school there debris hair three D. printing how to dress spongebob how to clean the toilet. One of the girls that I learned my sister had a boyfriend. Dogs are colorblind I made noodles, I. Mean Kids are a lot more than reading writing and arithmetic, and it's really hard to see through the traditional curriculum. Girl project is just as simple way for the parents to get away from the kids for the kids to find their new interest for the school to see the kid as a whole person and for them to go off on their quirky thing like you with BMX bikes inaugural motorcycles guy you know you have to have time to figure out who you are in a little bit of arms up the only thing I was really interested in was making kids laugh and Raj Shah, and I'm literally doing that's my fulltime focus still. Yeah I. Think it's important for for me to say one more thing the in defense of the Moms I. Think the reason they WanNa put the but pat on so often because they know that when the kid falls and cries and runs to mom mom has to deal with it. So I think for so many moms it's like I just want to prevent this so that I can have an hour or I don't get run to every five I know this is cycle I was gonna say I was GONNA say my argument to that is don't placate. It don't entertain it. You know when your kids hurt hurt and when your kids not her I think we can delineate when there's a real issue when there's not and if you give very limited attention in my opinion, their little social creatures, they want approval. If you don't indulge it, it diminishes quickly. Okay. I'm going to be the peacemaker here because I'd say you're both right and Monica certainly when they're that little that they're wearing a but pad and let's hope it stops at some point you know you probably are around them and it. Probably isn't tone of pain to deal with crime. There's just an article in the paper today about how we're hard wired to like for the crying to really just light up every neuron and our brain. So one of the things that the grow project and me just talking about childhood independence is doing it's like you have to be away from them part of the time because when you're with them, you will be running when you see them her then you will be saying, Oh, I, see you're using the yellow Crayon and new we'll be saying Let. Me Play with you now to by the way. Great advice for parents that I heard recently that I love which is don't try to make a happy kid happier. Loving home isn't that great? Tries that all the time? How can we turn this up a little bit? Already Fun and now I'm going to put you on my shoulders. So it'll be even more fun. The craving cycle, we introduce them to my kids are in their early twenties now so they shouldn't turn it off if you're listening to this podcast kids. Because when I'm crossing the street with them, they're twenty two and twenty four, and I see them like looking down at their phone. It drives me crazy because like you should be watching you know look both ways and I treat them like they're three year olds learning. You know how you know what is the car and it's because I'm with them and I know that when I'm not with them, I got for I. Hope that when I'm not with them, they're not looking at their phone crossing the street because they have to take. So if I'm not with them I'm not worried and yeah, they somehow crossed the street for all these years and I haven't been with them all the time. So as long as you're spending so much time with them and we just talked earlier about nine hours a week. That's an entire workday with your kids all the time that's more time for you to be worried and harassed and sad and put upon at covert into the mix where I'm now with them twenty, four, seven for five months straight I mean that's normal. That's you're talking to me. Your Hey. We're all enjoying this break. Yeah. But I think what happens when you're a parent Monica and you've witnessed too because you've been around my kids as much as I have you get a glimpse into their real life often you look out the window in the to are plane and we're nowhere to be found right? Maybe they think we're still sleep or something and I watched them navigate situations over and over again that they would. Not, do if I was president or my wife was present in increasing order less if I'm present because they know I just don't go down that road a lot. But by God they work shit out in fact I'd argue they get along a lot better when we're not around, you see it all the time. You'll catch him out the window. You'll see them on the roller skates each it fall get up and there's no crying because we're. Not. There is one type observed that you have to recognize the many dynamics that are going on. Yes. Kids are always gonNA, fight for your attention or at least that's what I seen in my own life. So it is easier if you're not there and it is giving them these the chance to develop those skills as opposed to outsourcing the argument to you bring us back to the parents magazine it said you should always be there to. Intervene that's crazy. Culture sized talking to a professor of education wants who took twelve Grad students over to Scotland and they were watching the kids on the playground once again, mixed age during recess and afterwards they told her it was so extraordinary what they saw and she's a well what did you see? She said while I saw could fall down and none of the teachers went to the kid and the kid just got up and kept playing. and. I mean the fact that that's become an extraordinary like a weird sight. Antelope walking down Rodeo drive you know it's like, wow I haven't seen that before it's like there used to be a lot of hopes there before we paid the place. But in any event, there is something to be said for adults stand back could step up I. Love It. Now quickly because one element of this, that is serious, which is and you ran into this yourself, which is you're you're allowing your kid to further explore the mass transit system and he's getting better and better in. The only real stumbling block was a train conductor refuse to drive the train because he was on without apparent and then instead of calling you, he called the police. Now the police are going you and that's happened twice. So there's even been crazier examples of people being arrested and or assigned work release and all these weird things for basically just letting their kids act like I acted in one, thousand, nine, hundred, three. So on the legislative side, do you how do you guys provide help like there's? A Utah, Yeah Tell You about the Utah Law which is so fantastic is called the free range parenting law and it says that giving your kids some independence letting them walk to school come home with a latch key play in the park can't be mistaken for neglect if you want your kid to be doing that and your kid isn't the three year old you know if it's reasonable and statistically safe like once again, it's not that nothing could ever happen but it's extremely safe nonetheless to let. Your kids go play in the park that should be a parental choice, and then as I studied this issue more, I found out some really awful statistics in terms of intervention, which is that thirty seven percent of American kids will be visited or reported to CPS at some point, which is just excessive and it's because people don't know when to call and by the way if you're African American, that's fifty three, percent, fifty, three percent and a lot of times it's because of mistaking poverty for neglect. Kid Your eight year old is home with the five year old for two hours after school because you're working two jobs, is that neglect or is that you have your kids rise to the occasion do something a little old fashioned, which is the older kid watching the younger kid why you work so you can put food on the table. So we've been trying to pass a similar law which we now call the reasonable childhood independence law in other states and we we were. So close in Colorado we had bipartisan support it was literally. A Republican Democrats sponsoring this law did sail through unanimously through the House in Colorado is a week away from passage in the Senate when Kobe shut things down and similarly in South Carolina had passed unanimously in the Senate and it was about to go to the house. So we're hoping that when everything resumes that those two states will pass it and we've had interested in a bunch of other states too and we Can't handle every state at once because it's us you know it's let grow providing information and testimony and contacts, but we are hoping to pass it in another six or seven states this year and I think it's still wrong to neglect your kids and it doesn't take that away from child protective services. It allows them to concentrate on actual cases of neglect and not some mom who led her kids walk home from. The park or play in the park you know on a sunny day while she was working her job. Hopefully, we will pass these laws in all fifty states that say neglect is neglect things happen sometimes and your parent, and it's happening on the fly and to think that every moment has to be perfect that you would always have everything in control is unrealistic and here I'll tell you story. So there was A. Guy In England and he and his wife read a POB and the wife laughed, and then he left and then his daughter who was I think nine or ten came out of the bathroom and said, where is everybody now you could say that these were neglectful parents but actually it was prime minister of Britain all the prime minister right before this one, I can't remember why arms Tony, Blair. Yes it was Tony Blair. Tony Blair and they both thought that the kid had gone with one or the other of them. So you could arrest him and say he left his child in Pob. An unsafe thing. There's alcohol strangers they were in the bathroom. God. Knows what or you could say these things happen. So I really want us to have a system that might get a call. There was a kid in a pop. It's like well, what happened and you find out the story and you go that's not a story that's not neglect their kids sometimes get out at night a three year old who you don't realize they suddenly have learned. How to turn the DOORKNOB and they go, they're wandering. That's not neglect that's like things happen be a good Samaritan and bring the kid back. Don't call nine one one and say put my neighbor in jail that doesn't make any sense virtually a year ago right now we were a similar situation where we have these two families we pod with and we always travel together and a two year old just left one of the houses and walk down this very, very long driveway in just was in our house like trying to wake people up and stuff it was on his own for I don't know two hours ago Nobel. And then the rest of the day were just like Oh, my God he was. Like? y'know neglect happening just like some shit that happens. Right I feel like the public is on such high alert with this same fear that we have that Oh anytime kid you know by themselves, they could be kidnapped or whatever, and so judgmental that it turns into a nine one, one four also people are told if you see something say something nobody's ever told what something is you know if you see a two year old yes. I would try to figure out whose kid it was but if I didn't no, I would call the cops but I would not want the cops to think, Oh wow I can't wait to arrest that mom it's always the mom. Think. Let's find who this kid belongs to. Let's help her install a lot. Even Tony Blair story. So it's so rife with all the different status issues. So yet because it's Tony Blair, it's kind of a charming funny story that out now visit low-income couple they would be delinquent parents who are addicts and pieces of shit imagine if it's a single mom. Yeah. Well, Lenore what a party. And I think everyone should petition their school districts to implement the Latte grow policies I. think that would be a great idea. It's not just for schools you can go to let grow dot Org and Click on the independence project the let grow independence kit I mean it's basically modified for home use since so many kids are home at this point just another thing I'd like why independence is important and how you can step back and here's some ideas for your kids can do and if you want to share pictures or stories, please do but it's it's free against the Leckrone Independence Kit and the best part is I watched the outcome of many of the episodes of your TV show everyone. ITV's show girl I do my homework listen I not not real time but in my preparation of talking to you. Yes. But all the parents are they're happier the kids are happy. Everyone wins I wanna add that I'm shocked that you could find them I mean I can't find my episodes from my TV show crafty with the Google search. Enjoy the rest of your quarantine we love talking to you and I hope we speak to you again and all your the people you ve recommended. List imagine. Thank you, Monica. Bay Care, and now my favorite part of the show the fact check with my soul mate Monica Madman. Told Dr Ryan that I've been. OUTTA. My sling a lot at home. And he said no problem that's great. I thought it was going to be in trouble Thi-. You're breaking the rules. Yeah. I had an admission to make and he said no brown just don't don't be a knucklehead about I try to bench press or anything. I haven't done that. Now I did hang out some squats yesterday but that was very conservative. Yes, allowed or go to say that's the worst part of this whole thing is being out of my exercise routine. You'll go on walks yeah. I need to do that. It's been so hot. TREADMILL. Oh, speaking of which you know your treadmills on my porch it is. Oh my goodness. Should we set it up in here? So. You can be on it while you're doing the fact check. I wonder how loud it is omitted to whisper. Quiet. Small home it was I spent upwards of forty five dollars on it. Thank you. I really went for only like Gosh. It's too much. You know. We. Really go over the top. Momeni five dollars. Much cheaper than the white Mercedes I've been trying to buy you. Do you think if I say white Mercedes on here, enough times that they will contact us and give you one. Or I cut it out the last so. Why me? Sound spoiled or Snooty forget why we lose perspective we're kind of bad. Are We've been now you don't WanNa. Be Bad. You gotTa Live Your Life you know. Limiting sent. Well. He's always like well, this is the people will complain about something in their life, and then someone else will go like you could have heart disease. You know there's always something worse. They shaming people for having problems that are not as significant as other problems. Right people are just people put them on a in paradise on an island they're going to find something to ruminate on. It's just the nature of humid. Sure. That's true but it is still important to have perspective. Yes. You're complaining are feeling low with the condition it's not actually I don't think it's objectively related all the time to your actual situation it just human nature. To spiral about things. About things to make a big deal out of nothing. Yeah. There's people sitting around worried about getting attacked by bear is going to happen to them e do you worry about getting an I think about about two times a week or you do I never using of other things like that? No not like that, not a bear but a human you'll. Murder. Human Murderer, kidnapper taking you. I used to think about that a lot I don't really I don't think that much about murderers anymore is that since you got black belt in Jujitsu that Y. Yeah you feel capable. I would love to have a black belt in Jujitsu you'd be great at it. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of aggression. You know why you'd be great at it is it's a all the martial arts. It's the most rain heavy one L.. It is. It's more of a mental discipline Austin. Well, it's all about not exerting energy and letting your opponent, get tired and just weathering their barrage of aggression and learning to do that while keeping your breathing low in maintaining your energy. So there's a whole mental aspect to it that. You know it's a thinking man's martial arts thinking woman's Yeah I like that and it's all about like it's not about strength. It's about leverage you know and using their weight against them and stuff it's very tactical that sounds physics related which I'm not but at you never have to use a calculator during it I'll look into it. trig calculator people would get the size of a microwave oven I guess you would probably that was probably just in my era graphic calculator I don't really know what I'm talking about I. Just know that at a certain level of math in high school, I had to get some. was about his size of your laptop and it had so many weird symbols of blondes on. It reminded me of trying to learn how to read music, which you know how I feel about that Cher. System. Yeah that stupid fans a bunch of hieroglyphics. Shoes ABCD listen that's called a graph. Calculator is graphing or graphic I think graphing unkind yet graphing calculator groping mind was not as big as a laptop. It looks like this. Their new or now you know smaller and newer now. Like. There's like this big. They're really enormous. I loved it. Oh, you did. Yeah. kind of cool. Having that calculator. Sure like you had a real nice piece of hardware. Yeah. To me. You know I dropped out of video games when they're became more than two buttons so I loved Super Nintendo. It had a m B. and then up. Up Down left right data joystick. No no, it just had a thumb. You know Eros. Okay. Yeah. Up Down left right left right Aba I think was the code to get unlimited lives in Contra anyways I loved it and then the new one came out and then there was a pair of buttons on both sides at the top and then now maybe four buttons and then a joystick. Era and too much for me. Okay. I was like this is too many buttons to keep track of, and then I fell off and I'm kind of grateful that that happen this is surprising because you like gadgets jets weird I have a very small threshold for too many things. I E that calculator way too many buttons K. Okay you've a lot. Of our out. I got an axe to grind today. Lenore lenore wouldn't interesting person she is. Yeah. She truly is, and whether you agree with her or not one must respect the bravery of being. So against the grain and having the confidence to stick by that opinion, I think there was so much societal pressure against her I. Oh, it's funny though because it's against the grain but just twenty years ago it was not against it was totally normal commonplace in place. Yeah. It is weird but I think especially when she was on the news in the headline always said like world's worst parent and stuff like that. The calls the name of her show Yes yes. Well actually it's called this is a fact actually it's called world's worst mom world's worst mom cineplex produced series that aired on slice TV and syndicated by TLC international based in Toronto. The show features extremely overprotective parents and their families, and then she works with the parents to help get them outside their boundaries and conquer their fears. She's seemed Scandinavian to me really well, I have this stereotype about Scandinavians that they are not afraid to do something that is unpopular. If they think it's going to have a good result they seem pretty fearless. Interesting stereotypes well, you just like the highest opinion you could possibly have of any culture we have with Scandinavian culture will be always always win the happiest place on Earth twins. So there's like data I have a friend. Jazz. Lived in Sweden for quite a long time and he says yet, there's a lot of wonderful things about it, but it's also it's very bland. Wouldn't really like it? Well, I've been there and I like to quite a bit and also he's got so much accompany internal battles going. It's not like he was on vacation they're. Separated from his mother be and he's he was an outsider. So there's I. Don't know if he's the best person to you know evaluate I. Guess but he was just like, yeah, there's not movies I don't know he just he he said that he thinks if we live there, we would find it fairly Bonilla. Okay. Yeah. Right. Are accepted challenge. Move. There have fun. You don't WanNa come. We'll look the the weather is very. Off Volatile Yeah Yeah I mean the fact that it's it's dark all winter things I'm already out your yeah. But the fjords boy they're beautiful. You set your sights on those fjords boy. There's no looking back. Okay. So her father ran a tennis club you asked if it had inflatable domes. What are those domes for they are for weather speaking of weather Nyein. Need to have a sound effect for tying. You should we should have sound effects. This is something I was suggesting about two years ago. Remember when you get a little pad okay. Get me a cat and I'll. I'll use a timing thing that's going to be the one needs to easy quick. Okay. Yes, that you don't have to rely on weather conditions, you can play tennis whenever you like germ. So she talks about when she was in kindergarten and she walked to school in the crossing guard was wearing a day Glo mass, and then she married him which is so exciting for cute I have I'm Mary, my crossing guard do you remember who was of course? Not It'll come out over time that he he crossed guarded. All My street well, if you are the crossing guard and you have a memory of young Monica Platinum. Just. So we little creature this small. Yeah. Cut Damn I would kill me that little girl because sure you were still super opinionated in Bossie. Depends on what grade you got me like if you were the crossing guard when I was in first grade, you probably have a low opinion that was my rough year. They Stole Sand Art, and cookie. Right you're kind of. You're an outlaw that year I think that was the year or maybe it was kindergarten. I was really mean to the boy sat next to me. Then, his dad visited and he was really cute. The Dad was yeah Oh and so then I was being nice to him that day because you like the Dan. My God. You're so interesting some basing was he forty years older than you probably know it was if I was in kindergarten, he was probably like truly at that. He's probably in his twenties. Yeah. Like a young Ryan, Hansen, D looks like Ryan Hands Him. No, he was black. And Ryan is is not black not that I know. And he had a believe like a moustache, I liked a lot. I think I think if I can all my gosh. A mustache what kindergartner likes a Mustang I did a show avalon he's had one before okay. I don't think he had one at that time. Maybe you missed your dad's moustache he had had in shaved off. So no one time we went over to my dad's house on the weekend and he had shaped his whole beard off and I was like, no, no, no, no, no no no. Thank you. I did not like it when you did yours and Delta. Article. You don't look like my Daddy. How does in the parking? Lot of Myers. Thrifty acres in Michigan. Hot, you shaved it in the parking lot. Yeah. It went into Myers thrifty acres and I bought a battery-powered shaver in then I went outside and I I I stood outside the car and I looked at my reflection on the passenger window and I just shaved it all off and then I got in the car and I turned in look in the back seat and Delta who looked at me and she started crying that is a shock I. Mean. I. Thought you just like did it in The hotel room and she was there no, no, I did it did it right in the parking lot. I bet if you were watching that, you might think that guy murdered someone and now he's trying to like change his appearance I. Find it very odd that you did that in a parking lot. Really I was in a hurry to get that thing off my face. Clearly, I do that where everything's just honky Dory and then I wake up on my all my God, I got to get rid of. It's like an impulsive. Okay. Yeah. Back to the day GLO okay. She didn't choose saying did it exist back then the colored Dayglo Dayglo like you know dayglo yellow yeah Dayglo Orange Dayglo Color Corporation. Oh, it's a corporation yet corp and it was founded in nineteen forty six. So it did exist at that time. Okay. So she mentioned a New York Times article called something like the pain of intensive parenting, but she couldn't remember the exact title. It's called the relentlessness of modern parenting and feel free to look that up in in that article. Tie in Ding. The survey found that college educated moms or spending nine hours more a week with their kids than a generation ago. That's what Lenore said, and then she mentioned she couldn't remember the number of hours for non college educated MOMS. So in the article, it says the time parents spend in the presence of their children has not changed much but parents today spend more of doing hands on childcare time spent on activities like reading to children, doing crafts, taking them to lessons, tending recitals in Games and helping with homework has increased. The most today mother spent nearly five hours a week on that compared with one hour forty, five minutes. In Nineteen, seventy five and they worry it's not enough. Leisure time like exercising or socializing, it's much more likely to be spent with their children than it used to be while fathers have recently increased their time spent with children mother five minutes a week to eleven minutes a week. Is. Still significantly more. but I looked in the article and I didn't see numbers for Non College. Educated MOMS in that article and cry okay. She said three out of Abraham. Lincoln's Ford. Kids didn't make it to adulthood, but she wasn't sure if they died while he was fighting in the civil war. So the civil war was, when do you know I think the civil warm just I'm guessing here I think I, WanNa say eighteen, sixty, four, eighteen, sixty, one to eighteen, sixty, five. Oh. That was one. Time. Thank you. So his first son lived a long life. The second son Edward was born in eighteen, forty six and died in eighteen, fifty, four years old and what is believed to be Tibur Kilo says. The third son William Nicknamed Willie was born less than a year after Edward's death died at age eleven. While the Lincoln's resided in the White House. Oh. My God. So that would be at the beginning of the civil war, right? So if it was less than a year after Edwards, deaths would have been an eighteen fifty or eighteen fifty one than eleven years of the civil war eighteen sixty one. Okay. So that that was then their youngest son Thomas known as Tad eighteen fifty three, he outlived his father by six years. Oh, he died at eighteen. Oh my God. Poor Robert Robert, all his brothers died, and then his dad. Shah. It's a miracle that a Lincoln was able to do anything because he had. That disease you think he had all know the he had it everyone There's consensus on that. Remember we looked it up and we couldn't there was no that was a fact. You know he had any who he had terrible depression. Had humdinger disease. What is it call? 'EM MARVINS. Yeah. He had. Marvin's three of his children died in his wife. She had horrendous depression is well I mean. What is seeing there in the White House I it's. It's unfathomable. What would they win through? So K. based on Lincoln's unusual physical appearance. Dr Abraham Gordon proposed in nineteen sixty two that Lincoln Marfan Syndrome testing Lincoln's DNA for Marfan Syndrome was contemplated in the nineteen nineties but such test was not performed Okay okay. Okay. Well, anyways tons of depression lots of children dying and then ultimately assassinated while watching a play I mean what? God? My goodness that was his reward the think about the legacy still was able to do that speaking of horrible sadnesses Chad with men Oh. My God. Yeah. Colon cancer is that one. Yeah and he had it for four years and no one knew and he was doing all of these projects he knew though. He knew he was like inbetween treatments, doing projects and Oh my gosh you. They have one of those in the canned you know. I. Don't know it was enormous Black Panther is such head. They clearly were making more wonder if they already made one. Announced another. But I don't know that they shot it. Yeah. Oh it's so so sad. Admirable I mean just like pushing through and that kind of way like Obama posted about him and just ended basically by saying what a powerful use of his years. Yeah. I always urge that it's not a popular opinion but evaluating the life not by its longevity but by its yeah potency the ride yeah. There's a ton of lives that ended in their forties at I would prefer to have over many many lives I went to a hundred. Yeah, I know. That's not to say that it's not heartbreaking and I want to add a weird. This might sound insensitive, but it's incredible that he was battling and and was also in the physical shape he was in I mean he was so fit I think there was something about he did an award show or something and he was really like gone. And everyone was like commenting on it. which also just goes to show like everyone just wants to rip on other people they don't even he has cancer breakthrough, right? Right. Okay. So so she asked if lions can climb trees and you said the female ones, can you seen him? Okay. So the lion is able to climb trees but has limited to the lower branches. Line is large and bulky gravity gives these cats a much harder time by and large prefer to sleep on the ground although a couple of price throughout Africa have proved they are fully capable of climbing up but couldn't find any gender I looked at a lot of the reason they can only go to the lower branches is because they waste so much way females weigh three hundred pounds in the males weigh four hundred and fifty pounds so I think that there. Similarly rang tans, the males live on the ground and all the females live up in the canopy males are just too heavy and aggressive. I, Love Ring Itunes but those males are naughty. Don't they like throw poop people will know they rape. There's of rape among rang tans and what's really interesting. They've tried to study the the female can still select which mel they get pregnant by which is this great mystery. But then they get raped, they get raped. Yeah. They pretty much just stay away from those big Dingus is down on the ground but the the the female Ryan are so fucking cute and smart capable. To similar mealy air. There is a orange tan orphanage in either Borneo or Sumatra. That's where they live those two islands they have chores, and then when they complete their chores, they get to select from one of hobbies. So they have to wash clothes. So there's all this footage of them washing clothes. US and then the one I watched the two orangutans favorite activity was canoeing. Washing their clothes, they got to go canoeing, and then they just canoed out into the middle dislike and then just started hitting each other with the oars. Oh. Great. That's really cute. Did you ever see the Julia Roberts documentary about Iran's she was at that orphanage in she went there was a big male and they're fucking big the they're above three hundred pounds as well and she got close to on and she was just sitting and everything looked peaceful and then he just lab. By the neck. So fucking scare. And then the dudes ran in and started baton him around to get him to release her but it was. Our quite scary. Yeah, you don't WanNa mess with those. Boys. I do think would. Yeah. Oh God was were fine. Okay. Okay. Moving. This is kind of a dark episode between Abe Lincoln and then they're rang a Tan. Chadli and Chadwick. Yeah, okay you said I think there's a woman in the Netherlands, has a video where she gives you a drug after you've been exposed to something scary and then you're not afraid afterwards this was in relation to emerging therapy maybe she said it I, think she did I that doesn't sound familiar to me at all. Okay. So Merrill kint notes pronounced marijuana. nope. Narrow Kin. Is a professor and researcher with the University of Amsterdam, and she's developed what she calls the memorex method for phobia sufferers. This method is based on premise from McGill university researcher, Kareem Nader that our brains re save memories and that these memories are malleable. So Kim explains how our method works. I we trigger the fear memory by exposing people do a situation or stimulus that they fear. Your case snakes F-. Yeah kin then add something new to the experience such as challenging a patient afraid heights not to close his or her is this is a signal to the brain to the memory. She says the memory traces temporarily in a destabilized state usually that fear memory would be re saved in the brain overnight as the patient sleeps but can has found that if the patient takes a single dose of a Beta blocker. Pran, and all your pro Pranjono law called panel. So hard to. Pro Brands. Jennings. Up. Pram Rawal. It's PROPRANOLOL. You think you're getting closer to it. Closer. Program wrong propranolol. Okay. So anyway, single dose of a Beta blocker called propranolol after the memory is triggered, it disrupts the re saving process propranolol was originally developed to treat angina not vagina that's a heart condition. Yep. Yeah. But it has since been used to treat many health conditions including tremors, cardiac arrhythmias, and since it lowers heart rate and blood pressure anxiety. If the treatment is successful. The memories altered as the patient sleeps and a strong response will no longer be triggered Zir results is that is at work I doesn't theory or does it work? She thinks that works in k.? Even. With a snake in your bottom. We'll have to test it out to test. Amsterdam. The University of Amsterdam. Arizona, state has a reputation of being a party school but when you imagine the Amsterdam University being the ultimate party schools. Yeah. But they're just used to it. They're they're not going crazy early are not it's only the American dingus. That are like falling about the streets and stuff. Yeah. I was one of them at one point two. Did you get Shitty when you were there? Did You Did. You marijuana and stuff now just drinking drink you put. You here you know sticking Tamara Sobriety worth it. Also it is and I quit dipping tomorrow you can do it. I'M GONNA do. Not. About it. Yeah there's a free range parenting law in Utah, Lenore talked about and that was enacted in May two thousand eighteen. Thing Tien. Born. It really wasn't a Tien and just wanted it to be. Yeah. I'm. GonNa. To get better at times you do a great job. And that's all for Lenore oh it is. Oh. I took a screen shot of it, and then I meant to send it to you but now just read it out loud that with the personal get credit for because it was a very funny joke. Okay, you ready. is about you. I'm scared Gary Howard. On instagram fantastic episode Jason Bateman is alleged congrats on sixteen years bub-bubba when Monica's P baby gets in trouble does she say urine trouble? Urine trouble. The Rate. That's a really good Gary Gary really good job. Thank you. There's a lot of people out there. That could brighten film and television. Agreed that's the upside of that. Internet there are in trouble is definitely. For sure as really. Good. Okay. Great while I. Love You and Happy Birthday. Happy Sobriety Birthday to you. Are you gonNa try to not drink tomorrow on my birthday supposed to win off Oh right? You're gonNA slowly do it maybe just like five or six. Okay Great. I'll do half okay. To. Love you.

Monica Monica Parents magazine DAD Jonathan Height Chicago professor Lenore Brooklyn New York soccer starbucks Kodak Emmy Peter Gray California Texas New York Daily News Dan DAB
Here There Be Monsters | Ep 20

The Strange and Unusual

53:25 min | 1 year ago

Here There Be Monsters | Ep 20

"<music> she called the monster that lived under her bed self are is because at night is sometimes stood staring at her from a shadowy corner with is is bright a silver. That's what she told me one night several months ago a night that will now forever haunt me. It was late pass my night and I was asleep in bed. When I heard a voice whisper in my ear monster bed with my brain still hovering in the hazy fog of sleep I managed to respond with only a confused <hes> here's a monster under my bed? It was staring at me from the corner corner by my closet and it Kinda floor and crawled under my bed I side round my is an pulled myself out of bed which was becoming an increasingly difficult task with my ever-expanding pregnant belly. Let's go have a look then. I don't WanNa go back in there. She protested fear evident in her voice. There's no reason to be scared. I'll be with you. She took my hand squeezed it hard word and walked with me back to her room. I settled on her bed and padded the mattress beside me come here gracie sit down. Tell me about this monster as she scooted next to me and rested her head against my arm she explained the monster has these bright silver is and she's a woman but she's also kind of a bunny. She has long white bunny ears. Silver is that's interesting and bunny. Ears doesn't sound like such a scary monster. Bunnies are acute. Aren't they know not this one the only part of her that's a bunny is her ears. The rest of her is scary <music>. How so her skin is like all gray with roses and it's peeling I could even see some for skeleton her hair's long and black and really messy she had on a dirty dress tonight down I think under feet or covered in mud and she told me she will eat me soon? Let me check under your bed and see if she's still there. I got down on my knees pulled up to bed skirt and I looked nothing there of course commute gracie see now monster. She reluctantly join me on the floor and cautiously peaked under the bed any monsters I asked she I shook her head now. Honey there are no monsters in here. I think he must have had a bad dream or something and you can see. There's no monsters here right now right so let's talk you back into bed. This gracie's face dropped as her breath began to automate quicken. I can't stay here would if she comes back after leave. She told me that soon she'll eat me just as I was about to tell her that I thought seven was a little too old to believe a monsters and to reassure her that she was perfectly safe with her father and I just down the hall from the corner of my I I thought I saw shadow sway in darkness and sudden flash of silver. Do I tell myself it was only an optical illusion and power of suggestion. It was at that moment. I decided she'd be sleeping in bed with me that night. Then a couple of weeks passed with no mention of silver is leaving me to think that perhaps apps Gracie's monster had been a one night phenomenon but I was wrong. I was again woken from my sleep with her whispering voice informing me that the monster under a bed was back again this time I am I didn't get up. My pregnancy was leaving me in an overwhelming state of exhaustion every night and I couldn't bring myself to open my eyes. I simply made room for her on my bed in went back to sleep the next morning my husband Jack back asked me why Gracie was in our again. It's only been twice. I said but she's never done it before now. She thinks there's a monster under her bed. She was scared so I've let her sleep in our room a couple of times isn't she a little too old monsters he asked I don't know if she's too old or not but it's very real to her. I wonder he said if she's already starting to feel some jealousy about the baby she she might just be trying to claim your attention. She really is scared out Jack. I'm sure she is but maybe it's been brought on because of the baby like her mind is created a monster to help her deal with what's happening or something I no no and any. She's always been sort of coddled. Don't you think maybe it's time to push to grow up a bit. It was true I'd always sheltered gracie from his scarier things in life but I had good reason because after all we lived with a dead Jack was mortician and we lived above our funeral home and I was determined to never let my daughter's dreams be filled with thoughts of death and corpses news so I kept her from it. She had a vague idea what we did but I never once allowed her to enter our funeral home. Downstairs Templeton funeral home had been Jack's family for at least one hundred fifty years. Maybe maybe more and Jack had grown up above the funeral home to our place had always been his home but unlike gracie he'd been allowed to be involved in help in the family business from a young age. The practical side of death had been part of his life since he was a toddler which he believed taught him to be less fearful not more so and he thought it might help to expose her a little more to death than she had been to help her understand what we do to have it all explained to her. He believed that perhaps it was due to the mystery of it all that she becomes such a frightened child. I agree that he may be right but still I felt protective and hesitant. We both agree that it was probably best that I be away during her first visit downstairs so that my anxious anxiety when affect her experience so one day while I was out running errands Jack took Gracie to the funeral home for her initial visit he carefully kept the dead hidden from site as desensitized as he was to at all even he understood that her first exposure should be done very carefully even so with carefully thought out ground rules set when I returned home I found gracie completely inconsolable sobbing my husband's lap. Jack Silently motioned for me to come with him to our bedroom after explained to Gracie. We just need a couple minutes alone. He turned on T._V.. For her which was enough of a distraction and comfort for hurting momentarily calmed down enough to be left alone what happened I asked as soon as he closed the door behind him. Everything was going really well. I I took her to the arrangement room next plane what we did and how in that room mommy or I meet with the families of those who have died two range funerals. I told her how we help people who are a lot of pain that we guide them during a very confusing difficult time. She asked a lot of good questions any she liked that we help people was really interested in hearing more about it then. How did she ended up like this? I pointed toward the door. I'm getting there so I continued the tour for her first visit. I told her I wouldn't take into into preparation room because it might be a little too much that would come later. I took our to all the other rooms though I even showed her the room of casket displays and she wasn't even phased by it. I was actually kind of amazed she was doing great but then the phone rang in my office. Oh no I said as I put my hand my forehead I know I know but we were in the chapel time the most peaceful room there and I asked her to sit there and not leave until I came back told her I just needed to take a call really quick. She said okay I left her there. I was on the phone for maybe five minutes and Jack Speak. I knew that meant more like fifteen minutes but I didn't argue. I can't mouth shut as I just wanted him to get to the points and then I heard her screen from the preparation room something had startled her and I thought oh no. She's uncovered a body or something but but she hadn't she was sitting in a corner. Just rocking yourself crying. I don't think even noticed there any bodies in their everything was still carefully draped and she didn't appear to have taken any notice so what what happened. Jack continued. I picked her up and immediately brought her back upstairs and then I asked what happened after taking a few minutes to calm down. She finally told me she saw a picture of silver is in the prep room. What pitchers in there yeah I know and that's exactly what I said to her but she insists she was in such a state and releasing to believe she saw this pitcher? I've been in and out of that through my whole life though and there's nothing like that in there what do we do. I asked feeling suddenly overwhelmed and at Moss well now that your home and you can be with her. I'll go have a look around the prep room just to be sure leaving the bedroom we found gracie asleep on the couch. I sat gently by your side and began googling child psychology websites on my phone desperate to just feel like I was doing something so an hour after he left Jack came back upstairs he looked exhausted as reported that he looked everywhere practically turn the place upside down but found nothing that could explain Gracie's account of the Pitcher of silver is following week was the start of Gracie's break giving us the perfect opportunity to have her stay with my parents in their country home for a couple of weeks. She needed a break from whatever was causing her anxiety and we needed time to figure <unk> how best to handle the situation without adding any additional trauma. My parents were this warm affections where people who had a way of making everyone around them feel special important especially their beloved only grandchild Gracie A._C.. They were exactly what she needed in that moment and it seems to be working because during our nightly phone calls she sounded so carefree so happy she sounded like my old gracie she wasn't having having nightmares and there were no monsters under her bed there. I was relieved but also I felt a pain of sadness that she couldn't feel that way here with us. A couple of days after Gracie left Jack had a fly across the country to attend a funeral industry convention. I was alone in our home and left to run the funeral home on my own for the first time of course after all these years I was used to being around the dead but I wasn't quite as acclimated committed to it as Jack and I found myself feeling more jumpy on edge than I expected so I kept myself busy all the time to chase away the shadows. The House had never been more tidy restless late nights were spent scrubbing toilets and tiles cleaning out my 'cause it and drawers dusting ceilings moldings and sometimes just running the vacuum to break the deafening silence during one of these seemingly endless US restless nights. I distracted myself by doing laundry after having pulled a pile of Gracie's freshly laundered closed from the dryer. I put it in a basket and carry it to her room. As I opened the door I was met the darkness that unexpectedly sent fear proclaiming over my flesh. I rushed to switch on the small lamp on Gracie's bedside table. The light shone was just enough needed to complete the task folding clothes and putting eating them away but most of the room was still left in a thick for boating darkness the shadows remember racist corners of her room seem to threateningly gather and grow denser before my eyes I felt a little silly that as a grown woman woman simple thing like dark frightening me so I shook it off stood beside her bed again folding clothes using my belly as a makeshift tabletop caught up in a repetitive tasks. My brain thankfully went into autopilot. Pilot I began to relax and even laughed at myself for letting the dark scare me but then I thought I felt something brush against my ankle from underneath the bed I paused for a moment gracie shirt. It left dangling across my belly cy body froze. I'd experience this station pins and needles often during pregnancy though so I thought that must be all that was relaxing again I contain folding but then a couple minutes later I felt a touch of a hand at least sweeping across my ankle. I quickly lifted the bed skirt looked under the bed and there I thought I saw the glint of silver the crank for a moment reflection of small bets island before disappearing my heart begin to thought against my chest and I suddenly consumer category breath. I dropped the laundry basket fund the room and slammed the door hard behind behind me after that I stayed away from Gracie's room but even so each night I heard sounds emanating from behind her door. They were disturbing sounds sounds. I couldn't easily explain away low moans creaking footsteps and at times what seemed to be the sound of a person scuttling on all fours filled my nighttime hours with dread sleeping with my ear buds in my podcasts turned up is not as I could handle during the day running if your home my mind off of things especially when our employees toys were around after everyone had gone home what night I was cleaning up the prep room and getting things set for the following morning. I never really did like banging prep room on my own and the two bodies laid out next to me certainly didn't help nope. I kept thinking I saw a slight movements under the sheets covering them as a harsh light shadows of the room played tricks on my mind I quickly began setting up tools for our embalmer to use the following morning. Am I rushed to finish the task. I dropped a packet of I caps II needle injector on the floor. I recommended myself for being so clumsy. As I bent down I was about to stand back up when I noticed something something so small so inconsequential that it shouldn't have caught my attention but it did sticking out from between the wall length drawers and a floor was it tiny corner a paper just burly picking out barely visible at all and if I weren't careful plying it out it could easily be pushed back under using the nail. Oh my pointer finger. I delicately slid the paper toward me. I sat down on the floor arrested my back against their doors. As a mysterious feeling of apprehension filled me I finally looked down and saw the name Amina cost US spelled out in cursive on the back before I turn the paper around it was a pitcher after an old pitcher and it was a dead woman with messy black hair around her head was tied a bandage to keep her mouth shut the end of the bandage rested on top of her head like to floppy white years ears and honor is to keep them closed or two silver pennies so I whispered this is a strange unusual podcast with Allison Hawks and welcome to episode twenty here. There'd be monsters <music> on an unusually brisk winter day in early February of nineteen sixty four Zhongjie asterik strict was hiking through the countryside in the southwest of France and as he walked along his route he suddenly noticed a trail of fog coming from the direction of the limestone cliffs that dominated the Right Bank of the river lot unable to resist the beckoning swirl messed he followed it until he found himself at the entrance of a cave and as a speleologist a cave explorer his curiosity was peaked returning few days later with a friend and fellow caver Zhongjie was fully aware that they were up against a significant challenge the entrance a tight squeeze and situated between two sources of water. The cave was not easily accessible and once inside side they found the exploration wasn't any easier the caves low ceilings made crawling assess ity and the two men crept along the rough terrain for two hundred meters or about six hundred fifty six feet until until they finally emerged into a room that was tall enough for them to stand within the stamp dark room deep within the cave anxious to view their surroundings. The two men brought their lanterns up to their is and what they found and was astonishing the rooms sloping walls were covered entirely in strange ancient engravings prehistoric cave art was not unknown in nineteen sixty four beautifully rendered scenes depicting affecting mostly large wild animals have discovered decades before but these figures were different. These were bizarre anchor task these were unrecognizable and they would come to be known as the percocet monsters the engravings found in the Progressive Cave covered the ceiling and the walls and unlike previously discovered cave art. These creatures were like nothing found in nature their bodies have been twisted and reconfigured into bizarre composites often mixing human an animal traits into a single beast beaks horns antlers were found protruding from humanoid forms with one figure having its head replaced by a snake legged tube emerging from its shoulders these unnatural creatures further devolved into depictions of heads without bodies and bodies without heads what made this discovery even more curious where the great ranks taken by those who created them to keep these monsters hidden and difficult access of their Percocet site and Steve King author of Cave Artists wrote quote it must have been not only arduous but terrifying to penetrate the my choked passage low constructed and in places Steve or punching equipped only with a primitive lamp which could easily blow out in the prevailing drought one can imagine that the Paleolithic explorers crawled into room for half terrified half triumphant either Chima in reaching such a deeply hidden gallery and quote further having sneak through very narrow passages meant visitors to the monsters risked their very lives as a k. was always under threat of flooding these monsters were not meant to be seen by just anyone one theory. That's been put forth is that this was meant to be a sacred place a secret sanctuary where rituals performed so it was to be visited only by the chosen view but additionally I find these hidden prehistoric monsters fit with the monster narratives throughout all ages because as I found and in my research monsters were almost universally believed to live in outlying regions deeply hidden until they suddenly attack some unsuspecting human population but whatever reason these K- monsters recreated along I'm with additional finds discovered throughout southern France in Spain and why they were engraved in the places they were no one is quite sure what function this art served regardless of their function however there have always been monsters in his book marvels of the East study in the history of monsters art historian Rudolph with Cower wrote quote monsters composite beings half human half animal play a part in thought at imagery of all all people at all times and quote in Nineteen Ninety six it was determined that the produce it monsters were approximately thirty two thousand eight hundred and fifty years old much older than anyone initially imagined confirming that monsters truly are as old as civilization itself. The human mind has always needed monsters. They've acted as embodiment of all this dangerous and dreadful for us. They ban the super human creatures. We've utilized to rationalize the unknown powers that control our lives in the dying days of our species we needed something tangible to explain threatening forces of nature and we needed a continually medicine presence stocking us just outside the periphery to serve as motivation to master the frightening forces and compulsions within our own psyches in modern times monsters have been woven into our pop culture as mere fanciful sources of entertainment so much so that we've come to take for granted that for thousands of years our ancestors believed they actually did exist and as we wash their gruesome forms flash across our movie T._v.. And computer screens rarely do we ever her contemplates. The psychological meaning of the monsters appeal and its purpose to people throughout the ages as a human race emerged we weren't I like children in the dark afraid of what maybe lurking under our beds and just as the world is unknown and scary for children so it was for our most ancient ancestors combined with our lack of understanding of the world around us at the time humans were also built with the unique skill of complex imagination. It was probably inevitable that unseen monsters would come to fill our dark places and for the purposes of survival it suits us to assume a threat in places that are murky and unknown it is due to our ancient ancestors success at survival that we are now born with a handful of innate fears via evolution from birth were afraid of falling from great heights and we fear law noises but also among our earliest years is fear of the dark fear of being left alone in dark is with us right from the beginning. Peter Gray Psychology Professor at Boston College stated quote. It's no surprise that infants have some fear of the dark throughout our evolutionary history. The dark was dangerous. Humans rely on vision above all other senses and dark placed us in great danger for thousands of of years it follows a healthy fear of the dark and the monsters at Prowl at night is deeply ingrained in the human psyche and quote monsters have clearly been ingrained in the human psyche because every culture on earth has had its own monsters. They've never been confined to a single people or tradition. These nightmarish creatures have managed to haunt populations the world over and strangely despite our anciently disconnected cultures are monster share nearly identical themes and stories across the globe are monsters may differ and size shape and appearance but as represented in Art Folklore Literature and and myth they are essentially the same today we use the word monster as a sort of blanket term to describe whatever we find horrible repulsive or threatening but historically a monster Israel was a creature that met specific qualifications monsters were mythical and supernatural. They transgressed the laws of nature most often they were a natural hybrids horrifying blends of varied it beasts which often include a mix of human and animal monsters were fusions that resisted categorical division and this included strange composites of living and the dad as well as human metamorphosis. Purposes as seen in the Werewolf for example monsters also always had certain characteristics in common which included aggression abnormal size which generally meant gigantic evil intent deformity powerful strength a propensity toward violence and a desire to kill and consume humans to understand the origins and the evolution of monsters. We must go back to the beginning to the word itself monster originates from Latin word monstrum which literal terms means omen or portent monster meant are being or object that was an omen are warning of the will of the gods this entomology conveys the complicated and divinely appointed society a role of the monster monsters though ambiguous and unpredictable are demonstrative as a portend reveal and make evidence all that is hidden and repressed often and comfortably provocatively so and it is because of their critical fundamental role that monsters rose with a dawning of humanity humans began their first tentative steps into cosmology questioning the origin and evolution of the earth and universe mythological and religious beliefs developed as responses to those questions universally delay an independent of one another creationist were conceived of the world over and with them came the monster images and sketches of bizarre hybrid creatures have been found in some of the oldest fragments of religious art in ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia some of which include written descriptions of these beasts and their corresponding stories stories that make clear monsters were believed moved to have played an integral part in the formation of the world but the monster didn't come alone the human mind seemingly hardwired for binary thought needed opposite a monster needed a nemesis my sis and this came in a form of a hero and these mythological stories the hero and monster come as an intertwined inseparable pair. You cannot have one without the other and here's job was to literally clear the way for humanity by taming the monster and this way the hero was the first creator of social order for humanity at the formative stages of the world's civilizations monsters heroes were summoned to execute these same functions worldwide and these epic battles of good versus evil embodied in the forms of the hero monster played out the same way <unk> almost universally the monster usually remained in its layer which lay hidden in unseen dimensions occupying dark mysterious rooms where most people feared to tread monsters resided added in places like mountaintops dense forests remote wildernesses jungles or deep in the bowels of the earth often they could be found in secluded watery places including oceans swamps marshes marshes and dark bottomless lakes though the monster usually kept to their isolated territories there were times when they came out from hiding to terrorize humankind often the emerged during the darkness of nights or during dramatic weather events or natural disaster and when they did invade our domains it became necessary to fight back resulting in what's often referred to as the combat myth the combat meth always consisted of three parts which repeated over and over again I the monster appeared to an unsuspecting population news of monster siding spread with reports efforts being ignored explained away or simply disbelieved. It's not long however before the monster unleashed powerful and unmistakable acts of destruction at which point the community finally comes to terms with the reality body of their dire situation and then finally the community comes together to gather strength as they assemble the forces with a hero stepping forward and taking charge defeating and slaying the beast this is followed alibi celebration after which normalcy returns this is all of course temporary however and a monster or it's kindred beasts eventually return on the cycle begins all over again beowulf written sometime between the eighth and ten centuries the believed to have existed as oral tradition for centuries before that is one of the first recorded examples of the combat meth the story set in Sixth Century Denmark tells of a monster covered in for and standing over ten feet tall called Grendel cursed descendant of the biblical figure Cain grindal lived in a dreary marshland with his mother on the cloud Mr Moore's but not so far from the Monsters Lehrer King Horse Gar ruled his kingdom from the Great Hall of Heroes where he shared his wealth good fortune and love of merriment with as men every night treating them to gluttonous meals and strong drinks as jubilant music played. They're boisterous. Celebrations did not go unnoticed however as from the depths of his lawyer Grondahl grew angry with envy and bitterness and tell an all my rage consumed him aw when finally on emotionless night Grendel could handle no more king at his man slapped grindal crept into the Great Hall and devoured heard several other kings men before consuming their flesh he rent them limb from limb really to satisfy his wicked pleasure grindal who could not be killed by human weapons return turned to the Kings Hall to attack every night for twelve years until finally a young lawyer from the land of the gates and Southern Sweden named e Beowulf her news of the seemingly unstoppable menace and resolved to take on the daunting challenge himself he and his band of warriors splint sale to Denmark where they were welcomed with feasting in revelry in the Kings Hall as a night war on what are the kings men no doubt emboldened by his intoxication began to taunt Beowulf for having once lost a simple swimming match calling his abilities into question the atmosphere thick with drunken testosterone-charged thrown charged swagger bolstered Beowulf as he responded to the criticism with a boastful tale of having once fought and crushed several sea monsters in a single battle but as night began to fall and sobriety sobriety returned conversation died away as bail wolf and his warriors took strategic positions in the darkened hall preparing themselves to ambush the monster soon granville craving and other blood feast dramatically burst into the Kings residents the door from it's very hinges before anyone had a chance to react Grendel Kat rushing his guns in coping Meghan down with glee insatiable appetite. The monster snared another victim but with an iron grip the victim grabbed monster back it was available unprepared tale of strength and momentarily stunned the monster tried to shake free of heroes cultures but to no avail bell wolf was unlike any other human he didn't counter before as struggle aw beowulf loosened his grasp on the monsters arm rental strength began to Wayne and in a last ditch effort to free himself from bailiffs grasp grown no mustard all the strength he could find left to yank his arm away way but as he did so bail wolf still hold on tight ripped the monsters online with a great death wound gaping in his shoulder granda fled into darkness of the night and returned to his layer for he collapsed into his mother's arms and died following his triumph Bay will probably Hong Monsters bloody arm and shoulder on the wall of the banquet hall and there it was admired fired as all gathered to celebrate the monsters death the trunk invest activities were a little premature however because as it turns out monsters loved their children to and Greg's mother having watched Asher sine die a slow painful death vowed revenge and following night slept and to the Kings Great Hall and killed one of his men UH realizing she would inevitably return beowulf prepared himself for yet another battle unexpectedly however she turned out to be an even more difficult vo than her son and as she gained gained an advantage she lowered the hero back to her watery layer where the battle continued on her territory but in the chaos that ensued beowulf noticed a huge powerful sword stashed amongst the monsters belongings and it was exactly what he needed because as he plunged into her the life drained from her eyes and she was no more UH milling about at the water shore bail wolf's band of Wires Ana kingsman anxiously awaited news of the battle when suddenly they saw a welling of blood waves of Death Gore rise service an emerging victorious bail wolf broke of the water with only the hilt of the source dole grasped in his hand as a sword itself had melted monsters noxious blood bay overturn the conquering hero the Kingdom rejoiced and King showered him with gifts and praise having proved a formidable warrior and leader bail was made king being to his people upon his return home and there he ruled wisely and peace rained throughout the land fifty years after his battles against grindal on his mother however Powell was once again called called forth to slay a monster a slave had found a sleeping dragon carring. It's mountain treasure and giving into temptation he stole one of the Dragons Golden Cups the dragon then awoke and having discovered the theft his retribution was unleashed across the land scorching all before him with murderous flames bail at that point about seventy years old old and abandoned by his fearful warriors met the dragon to do battle alone despite his age of manage to overtake the Dragon and sleigh him but not before the dragon sunk sunk has been amiss teeth into bale of snack fatally wounding him but this lying the dragon he still merged the victorious hero because all the dragons treasure now belong to his people bailiff's grateful subjects built memorials and Statues in tribute to their kings bravery kindness and generosity many any elements of the hero and comments are clear in the tale of Beowulf but it is far from being the oldest of these were aware of for that we leave behind northern Europe Dylan to bail wolf for the continent of Africa. Written by ancient Egyptians the book of overthrowing pufus tells of a giant serpents and all powerful beast and enemy draw the Sangatte called a pufus. He was very embodiment of chaos awesome. Evil stories of pufus often included a hero. The world's first now monster slayer called Egyptian seth who was repeatedly called forth to battle the beast and save the Kingdom the book of overthrowing Pufus. It's a sacred text kept royal temple contained rituals spells used to defeat the monster priests and lay people alike participated in rituals meant to call forth heroes in order to destroy the beast waste and protect raw but as the case for all mythological monster hero narratives no matter how many times oppo focus is defeated he rises to life again making the magical rituals contained in the book necessary to aid in spells and rituals ancient Egyptians created small wax models of the monster which they ceremoniously spat upon burned and mutilated these rituals were used in times they felt endanger singer storms or overcast cauda days or often thought to be signs that encompass was gaining power but solar eclipses are what they feared most as they were taken to be an indication of Roz demise but through their originals they helped restore order and banished chaos as was made evident to them. When assignment made it appearance once again the Thalji has given humanity a sense of control in unpredictable uncertain certain world mythological metaphors for chaos struggle and the unknown monsters represent all that is beyond human control making them a critical element in our stories in rituals anthropologist Claude Levi Device Strauss wrote? The purpose of the mythic narrative is to make the world intelligible to use magical means to resolve the contradictions of life historian Norman Cohen who wrote a study of epic `euromyths indicates that social systems bolstered by religious structure relied on an allegorical origin myth of a man battling a monster the hero God representing unity and a civilising force battles and defeats the the threatening chaos monster by conquering a monster societies emerge and flourish as humanity become airs and masters of the Earth Monster Myths justified humanity societal structures and his domination of the world they came to the conclusion. The narrative of the combat meth is virtually universal to also associations as our founding principal and origin story and while monster myths have always been part of humanity's narratives additives in explaining trying external world Dave always been about our inner demons as well one of the elements mystery available if that I find most interesting is that bailiffs most life-changing battles does the battles which elevated him to mythic heroic levels both took place in a monsters layer monster layers are dark borderline places. They are set apart from human communities. There are places we are not meant to go. The monsters layer is limited space in between space. A threshold order is dissolved in limited spaces and roles can be reversed. It's a place as a transition and not knowing and limited spaces. The future wants taken for granted is thrown into doubt we emerged from Limonov spaces transformed for better or worse and when entering the forbidden monsters layer it as if we momentarily become part of the creature and risk becoming a monster as well as Frederick Nature wrote whoever fights monsters should should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster and when he stare into an invest the abyss stares back at you. Sigmund Freud claimed that demons monsters and spirits were projections of primitive man's dance emotional impulses these impulses were then personified and populated their world and through them. The primitive man rediscovered the inner psychic processes outside himself in other words. The call is coming from inside the house. The monster has been inside you the whole time socrates believed the human psyche was made up of three basic functions reason emotion and appetite and in order to obtain a healthy balanced I psyche we must cultivate the harmony of reason of emotion over appetite and this was to be done he said through nurturing good habits and by avoiding indulging the wrong appetites otherwise we'd run the risk of becoming having monstrous. I performed in four hundred thirty one B._C.. Euphrates tragedy media tells the story a media a woman Mary to Greek mythological hero Jason they met when Jason had been sent to capture the magical golden fleece from ideas father having immediately fallen in love with him she helped Jason Escape with her father's lease at the place opening years had passed since that event and a couple were now the parents of two children living in Corinth despite their years of happiness together Jason Informs media that in order to climb to political ladder he has proposed or the daughter of the king of Corinth and that media must leave their home with our children before she leaves she confronts Jason to remind him of all that she has sacrificed for him and to mention that as a foreigner in Greece she would not be welcome to live anywhere without him. Medina's proportionate anguish and desperation nation is met with chilling cruelty. I chasing remains unmoved called an unrepentant an face of his wife's. Please Medina eventually finds refuge with a sympathetic individual and from there you're she begins to plot hurry vantage as her plan take shape in her mind. She indicates that she is aware that through her pain at Jason's betrayal she has transformed into a new sort of person that her passions winds have turned her monstrous when she says in other things a woman maybe timid in watching battles or saying steal but when she's hurt in love her marriage violated there's no heart more desperate for blood than hers. The Pot she has conceived of is a heinous one and for a time she struggles with her own internal sense of good and evil between the metaphor ick hero and monster between the Angel Devil but ultimately she surrenders to our inner beasley passions and impulses and says the evil done to me has won the day I understand too well the dreadful act. I'm going to commit but my judgment <music> can't check my anger and that incites the greatest evils human beings can do media presents Jason with wedding gifts a crown and a poison soaked robe for Jason's new bride and once wants his wife to be drapes her new robe across her shoulders her flesh begins to burn and melt from her body her father and his attempts to save her falls victim to the robe as well in one swoop media has wiped out Jason's ends bride and her powerful father but she's not done not yet her monstrous metamorphosis is not revealed until she murdered her own children in order to punish Jason and when he learns what she has done Jason reveals that he no longer sees media as a woman or human but as a beast when he says when you married me and wore my children and you're lost for saks and our marriage bed you kill them. No woman Greece would dare to do this but I chose you as my wife above them all and that has proved to be a hateful marriage. It has destroyed me. You're not a woman yeah she line. Your nature is more bestial and see the task and monster to play ends with Jason Still Confusingly on self-aware seemingly unable to admit or recognize that in having given into his own inner demons he he had been to one his trip media of her humanity in the first place but I digress among the main themes a media one is the idea that within us our forces that are essential to our psyches forces that that also feel foreign an alien to us conflicting with are perceived sense of self ancients and their developments mythology and stories made attempts to put towards a narrative away of processing our internal forces passions which at times felt monstrous and the book on Monsters Stephen t asthma wrote quote marrying that external struggle and insecurity is the pessimistic internal world of monsters desires cravings fears anxiety so powerful as to make us feel alienated from our very selves and quote monsters have been fundamental to our development as a projection auction and representation of the otherness with N._S.. But they don't ever really go away we may battle and conquer them when our monster emerges but like all monsters of the mind it remains immortal and will always return particularly when we are dark places both metaphorically and literally because when are primitive fears of all kinds of triggered we make monsters they scratch at your windows at nights loom in dark always hide behind closet to ours or like Gracie's monster silver is for my story. They may lurk under your bed. Once a monster has been triggered once it's made itself known it will always reside in our memory just as I still always see buddy Mary in darkened mirrors it may be no longer than a split second but for me she will always be there. It is partially due due to a phenomenon associated with false memory called boundary extension. The human mind is bill to see what's not there. It's built fell in the blanks. If for example I were to show you a photograph of a house but the pitchers been torn leaving oil portion of the house visible your mind will create a mental image of the rest of the house an effort to extend boundaries of what we see until it matches our expectation so it is with monsters once you've seen a monster dot darkened corner honor your mind will fill those dark spaces with monsters once you've seen a monster and night darken corner of your bedroom. It's nearly impossible to ever be entirely rid of it. Your mind will fill in the blanks and remember another episode by me coming close. Don't be so fast to assume the monster is going away once. There's always come back after all and I'll not be letting you forget about them that easily because you see my strange unusual friends this is only the first a series of episodes about monsters and after this one the monsters become more specific and horrifyingly clear so get talked in pull up your blanket turn out the light and hold that monsters hand under your bed real tight because for now humans resistance to monsters is futile until next time you can join the strange unusual oh podcast on instagram facebook twitter links to all those can be found on the website the strange and unusual podcast dot com and also I really appreciate if you could take a moment or two to rate and review the podcast as that's what helps it grow and helps make you going. I'd also like to quickly mention that a great deal my research for this podcast came from the books monsters evil beings mythical beasts and all manner of imaginary tears by David Di Gilmore you're and on monsters and a natural history of our worst fears by Stephen t asthma. I highly recommend both fascinating stuff and for this series on monsters. I feel like I've read a million bucks. So in the upcoming episodes I will be recommending more books but for now remember as Po said there is no exquisite beauty without him strangeness and the Proportion So stay strange.

Gracie A._C Jack Speak Jason Escape Greece Steve King Medina instagram Templeton funeral US Peter Gray Norman Cohen percocet Sigmund Freud Moss Mary Po Europe Amina
250: Nir Eyal | Control Your Attention and Choose Your Life

The Jordan Harbinger Show

1:02:45 hr | 1 year ago

250: Nir Eyal | Control Your Attention and Choose Your Life

"Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. As always I'm here with producer Jason Filipo on the Jordan Harbinger show we decode code the stories secrets and skills of the world's most brilliant interesting people and turn their wisdom and the practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you near Near. Iowa is a behavioral designer in fact. He started a little off on what some might call the dark side. He was helping companies design products that keep users heavily engaged sometimes sometimes a little too engaged now he helps people like us design our own behavior using the principles of consumer psychology in other words. If you want to change inch make or break a behavior pattern or habit near is your guy today on the show why your phone might be ruining your sex life. I'm actually quite happy to blame my phone for my sex life issues. If any disgust why outsourcing things like parenting to the ipad damages our kids psychologically that should come as surprise to nobody but we'll get into why this happens in how how we can avoid it other than just not using the IPAD and it turns out that some people can multitask probably not one of them but you might be it has to to be done in a certain way and near calls. This multichannel multitasking will outlined that for you here on the show today talking with near is always enlightening always fun. He's good friend of mine and he has been for years. I think you'll really dig this conversation. If you want your own friends much like my friend near well I used systems in tiny habits to keep in touch with a huge the number of people and reach out to people. I admire teaching you how to do that for free. Over at my course six minute networking again that's free and it's at Jordan harbinger dot com slash course and by the way most of the guests on the show they subscribe to the chorus and the newsletter so come join us. You'll be in great company now. Here's near Tom Near. We have a lot to talk about but what's fun is pre show we were just talking about getting worked up getting stressed out and you'd ask me if I wear any sort of wearables wearables because when you feel stressed out or you get worked up about something you're wearable will tell you that you're running. What's going on here because I have the same problem with my Apple Apple. Watch it. I'll be sitting down on the couch and I'll get an alert like oh breathe. Your heart. Rate is pretty high and I'm like Oh. I'm scrolling through instagram. Maybe I should close this happen if it thinks I'm out for a jog log basically if my heart rate is elevated while sitting on the couch looking at social media. There's something bad going on yeah. That's exactly right. I mean this is unbelievable revelation. When I looked at my phone I I look this APP where the owner ring which I really like but it's supposed to do sleep tracking. It's not supposed to measure your heartbeat all day long it does but that's not really what I use it for a supposed supposed to say you went on a run terrific. Here's how much exertion your heartbeat showed during the run but then I noticed once in a while I'd have this weird spike in the middle of the day I didn't go for a run and so when I looked back on my schedule would be during a podcast interview or some contentious conversation I had our debate with someone when I got worked up so it kind of makes me more aware of physiological effects of stress and it actually does relate to distraction to some degree the subject of my next book because I talk a lot about what I call. Internal triggers these uncomfortable emotional states that prompt prompt us to action and so that's a really good warning sign when you see your heart rate increasing when you see stress happening in your life. The born question we need to ask is what we do with that stress. Pressing people have been finding all kinds of ways to deal with it whether it's relief from booze whether it's relief from exercise whether it's relief from social media we look for relief we look for emotional pacification the different kinds of ways relief by drinking booze. You mean not relief from drinking booze right. Yeah is the really for a lot of people right that ruses the relief not yeah right and especially because I opposed it with exercise right. How can that be. How can you put booze an exercise in the same category and it actually interestingly enough it gets to the core of I think some of the ridiculous commentary we've had lately around how technology is hijacking your brain and how it's addictive and how it's so bad for you know people calling this tech Lash and clearly there. Are Some people people who go overboard to the point of addiction but it's not about the behavior itself. I think that's something I feel pretty strongly about. I WANNA get the word out around there is that you know if I told you hey I'm going to start with this new routine of running a good idea dorn. Is that a good idea. He said Oh yes you're running. That's great but if I said actually you know what I want to tell you something you know. The reason that I love running. Thanks so much is because it's the only place that I can escape my crazy home. Life and my kids are driving me nuts and my job is awful. Running is the only place I can escape. You might say Ooh. Actually I'm not sure about that. You might want to deal with these problems in your life. I know that if I said actually I used to drink a lot and the replacement for finding relief def- through booze is now getting run more. I can zone out and get a runner's high. That's the only place I can find relief. Will now you might say oh actually that's a lot better. That's a lot less harmful than what you used to do in in your destructive relationship with alcohol so it's never as simple as casting what I think. A lot of people do these days of like this moral hierarchy of video games bad social media bad but other other distractions. You know me watching football. Okay that's fine. I can spend four hours on the couch watching football that somehow morally superior. I think we need to keep stuff in check and make sure that we understand that anything that we content that is in accordance with our values is perfectly fine by. I love this quote. The time you plan to waste is not wasted time while that was one of the main takeaways that I got from you you last time we talked distraction being an easy way out and Planning for distraction. That's a concept that I wanNA touch on your first concept that we've talked about in the past. It's time time management being pain management and everybody loves to talk about these sort of we have productivity porn right. I've got to do is so then at Xavier's into my Google calendar under which sends me a reminder. Send me a push notification to my apple. Watch and it's like cool except you're still going down the rabbit hole for four hours in the middle of an afternoon afternoon then going. There's not enough hours in the day right. It's not really going to stop the problem or solve the problem of not doing what we say we're going to do. That's absolutely right distractions an easy way out when our willpower is at its lows which happens every single day to a lot of people. We've gotTA find a way an outlet for behavior that we're going to engage in to deal with. Discomfort Britt escaped from an unpleasant reality unless we're on Easy Street and we've got twenty million in the bank never have to work again. Some of us are going to get distracted. Feel guilty about it. Try to find a system around rounded and then not followed the damn system right yeah. I can't tell you how many people I've met learning about productivity as a distraction they're going down down the rabbit hole of productivity tips and tricks in life hacks and they are doing they don't realize it but they're doing it for the same exact reason that someone might watch a youtube video or play video game or go on social media. It's the same thing because I think one thing that's been missing from the conversation. I want to add my contribution in writing indestructible. Is this idea that we have to come to grips. Is that all behavior. All behavior is driven by a desire to escape discomfort and when did this research you know told me five years to write this book because there's so much research out there a lot of misinformation out there a lot of folk psychology. I had to wade through to figure out what's true and what's not one of the most popular notions is that motivation is about the pursuit of pleasure in avoidance of pain. We call this. Freud's royds pleasure principle and that's not true. It's just not true that neurologically speaking it is pain all the way down and you realize that it's kind of like unplugging from the Matrix you you see the world a little differently because you realize that wow if everything is a desire to escape discomfort then that means that time management as you said is pain management you can try every tip and trick in the book of all the books but if you don't fundamentally understand your emotional state if you don't understand if you don't realize that procrastination that distraction action is driven by the desire to escape some kind of discomfort and you don't have the tools to deal with that deeper discomfort you will always get distracted from something so that has to be the first place to start in their two ways to go there so one method is to actually deal with the discomfort and I don't think we talk about this enough. You know a lot of activity books especially lately. We've really swung into this field of meditation. I'm not anti meditation. Leave very very clear. Meditation is wonderful if you do it and it works for you. Keep doing it however however I think recently. We've gone a little overboard that some proponents say that meditation is the problem for everything right. If you feel bad anytime anyplace we'll just meditate your problems away and sometimes you know what they'll tell you is as opposed to don't just sit there do something what the proponents of meditation will oftentimes says don't do something just sit there and that does have a place right. That's great to do for these problems. You can't fix but let's not forget if it's a problem. If it's a source of discomfort that is persistent in your life that you are escaping from and you can't fix it for God's sakes. Fix it first right yeah so that's why talk about like in the workplace in your family situations. There are problems that we can fix but of course where we can't fix those problems albums a source of discomfort. That's where we need these techniques to cope with the pain. So what do we do in terms of trying to solve this problem. I mean you've got the indestructible model. Can we dive dive into each element of this. I think that's the obvious places started 'cause people right now. They identify with the problem. That's not the problem is not having people go gee. That ever happens to me right the opposite. If if you want to people who don't get distracted and never find yourself off task and you do everything you WanNa do every single day and you finish all your to do list. This might not be the episode for you but but if you're like I was that I found myself constantly distracted from one thing or the other. That's who I wrote this book for. I'll be very honest. I wrote this book because I read all the books I could find on this topic of distraction and they all told me the same thing. It's technology's fault. Get rid of the technology do a digital detox thirty day cleanse. It didn't work and it doesn't work for the same reason that fad diets don't work because I I used to be clinically obese and now I'm not anymore about eleven percent body fat and I finally figured out how to take care of my body in a way that's consistent with values but I would do these fad diets right thirty days no fast food and then of course you know what happened on Day thirty one big Mac o'clock yeah exactly exactly and so it's the same thing with our technology. If we don't figure out why why we keep getting distracted we will always find something. We think you know Zuckerberg says you know what I got enough money. I'm turning facebook off. Okay no more facebook. Do we think that people are going to start reading chaucer and Shakespeare in their free time of course not we're going to go back to all the things we used to do to get distracted gossip and the news and soap operas all there's always been distraction attraction socrates and aristotle. We're talking about this twenty five hundred years ago how distracting the world was back then so distraction is nothing new. It will always be here. You happen to know were they. Oh man a dish one symposium after another and I keep getting carrier pigeons interrupting my work like what were they complaining about back then yeah this new technology that was going going to enfeeble men's minds according to socrates of the written word. Oh Wow this was a horrible technology that they complained about saying real. Knowledge should not be written down. You have to have it in your head and in some degrees there right the ancient Greeks could do things that probably we can't do today. They can memorize kinds of stuff that we just don't have a need to do. But of course it's ridiculous to say eight at the written word is somehow an evil technology and by the way this trend this pattern verbatim repeats itself with every new technological revolution. Whether it's the printing press radio the comic book the Pinball Machine Video Games television. I mean literally the same script of people panicking. Some people find that they can make a lot of money money off of causing this kind of panic and fear and so that perpetuates of course in the media the media loves perpetuating fear and loathing around new technologies especially when the business model threatens their existing business model and so it's the same exact script. That's really funny. I think they're right though anything that's not in your head. You can't really apply but they kind of missed the point on in passing things down. I guess they assume everybody had to go to one of their schools in order to really be able to learn and apply knowledge which is funny so they're not wrong in that respect. I can just imagine these is to dude sitting around drinking watered down wine in their togas and being like they're almost eighteen books coming out every year. Now how are we possibly. I said well. How are you going to read all of that. No one's going to be able to keep up with this and the kids these days with their written work there papyrus walking around with their head the papyrus yeah exactly exactly you're right in in many ways. They're not wrong but there definitely is a price to this stuff. Sophocles says that nothing vast enters the life of mortals without a curse that was twenty five hundred years ago and he's right of course every new technology is going to come at a cost the idea here. I'm not protect her. Anti Tech what I think we should do is I am anti binary thinking I am anti everything in societies days is good guys versus bad guys and that's not real life. You know if you want good guys versus bad guys. Go read a fairytale. That's not reality. Reality is nuance and so does social media caused some problems of course it does have a lot of benefits of course it has benefits. A lot of people forget you know my first book hooked is about how to build habit forming technologies habit forming products not about how to build addictive products addiction something very different but I chose does a very specific case study for that book the last case study in the book. There's only one case study. That's devoted a whole chapter devoted to this one case study and the case study is devoted to an APP that is one of the most popular APPs in the world. It's not a game not a social network. It's the Bible APP. The Bible APP is one of the most widely used APPs in the world and it actually uses many of these same techniques that I talk about in my book. Cook these Behavioral Design Techniques to create habits for people who use the Bible APP is actually funny story. Bobby Greenwald the CEO told me that one of his users of the Bible APP sent him an email that this gentleman described how he was on his way into a strip club and and the Bible APP had a notification just in that minute you know he received a little Ding on his phone from the Bible App and he looked at his phone he said Oh my God the Lord is trying to tell me something and he walked out of the Strip the club and didn't go in and so the reason I talk about this one particular app the reason I didn't use a social network or a gaming company as this example will of using Hook model is because how you think about the Bible App what you think of these techniques if you think the Bible is a force for good in the world that Solis and brings brings them together then you think the Bible App using these techniques is wonderful but if you think that the Bible is something divisive that it causes division based on -Tarian ideological grounds then you think that it's not a good thing and of course the same exact lesson applies to various technologies like social media like the gaming companies. Is there a lot of good of course. Is there a lot of bad of course because it's huge it's something vast that has entered our lives and we now need to figure out how to get the best of these tools without letting them get the best of us with the Bible Apple App. It's funny because it's like. Whoa the Lord trying to tell me something what if they just program sin zones into that thing and it's like your location says you're dangerously. You're a pretty bad area buddy in your at Deja Vu. I'm just saying it looks like you're at deja-vu right. You might be at the spearmint Rhino. We're not sure either way. Here's a Corinthians ends. You might want to just review that real quick before you make your next decision. I wonder if you get points when you check into various churches. It's really an example of how you can use use this stuff in many different ways. Paul said that when you meant the ship you invent the shipwreck. I'm not a tech apologists. I think that there are all kinds of bad things that can come with these technologies. I think we should hold tech companies companies account for their monopoly status incursion but when it comes to this one particular idea that technology is hijacking brain that it's addictive that it's controlling you this the needs to be stopped because it is so inaccurate it is not based in any science and more so the really hard part here is that it actually by telling people all that technologies hijacking their brains that it is addictive and by the way I'm not saying it's not addicted to some people. Some people do become addicted. Look some people get addicted to alcohol. It doesn't make us all alcoholics. Not everyone who has sex a sex addict of course some people do actually become pathologically addicted to these things but this is one to five percent of the population the the harm done here. Is that when we tell everyone that they're addicted that these tools are controlling. You and your children people make it true. It's called learned helplessness so when we a spouse this message that it's hijacking your brain we are actually playing into the hands of the very companies who make this technology because people say oh. It's nothing I can do. My Kid hit X. Crazy that's because a fortnight not because of my parenting or anything that is going on the kid's life. No no no. That's four-night doing it right or to ourselves right when we say I just can't stop those geniuses is. Are you know built these algorithms that make me do stuff that's BS. We need to realize that there's a lot we can do right now to put the stuff in its place. You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest near. AOL will be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Zoom. When you use zoom every day is a little better zoom video the communications with the Web's best reviewed videoconference service used by millions to meet one on one or hundreds at a time zoom videoconferencing? Lets you connect face to face with anyone across town or around the world with flawless video clear audio in instant sharing of files video anything basically and you can connect through any device desktop laptop. Stop tablets smartphone or conference room system zoom videoconferencing zoom rooms zoom video webinars in zoom phone put state of the art tech at your fingertips and lets you do business business the speed of zoom look if you're not using zoom video communications. The only question I have is why not I'll make it super easy for you visit Zoom Online and set up a free account today. Try the most affordable and most reliable video communication solution on the market meet. Happy meet happy with Zoom. This episode is also sponsored sponsored by better help. I love better help online counseling we a lot of you've been using this and saying how awesome this was either as an addition to your current aren't therapy as dipping your toes in the water therapy as your sole source of therapy better help offers licensed professional counselors who are specialized issues like depression stressing anxiety relationship sleeping trauma anger family conflicts. LGBT matters grief self esteem and more some of us. We have all that stuff. You know no judgment connect with your professional counselor in a safe and private private online environment. Everything's confidential. Everything is convenient. That's what I'm saying. I mean you can do this in the car in the parking lot at lunch from work. You don't have to drive across town fight traffic. Get to your therapist office. Wait in the waiting room. Tell your boss. You'RE GONNA be late for some you can schedule secure video or phone sessions. You can chat and text with your therapist and if you don't like your counselor you can get a new one at any time. There's no charge for that and this is just massively convenient. I think more people need to do this. Jason Better help as a truly affordable option for our listeners in get ten percent off your first month with Discount Code Jordan. So why not get started today. Go to better help dot com slash. Jordan simply fill out a questionnaire to help them assess your needs and get matched with a counselor. You'll love. That's better help dot com slash Jordan. Thanks for listening in supporting the show and to learn more at links to all the great discounts you just heard from our amazing sponsors visit Jordan harbinger dot com slash deals and don't forget we have a worksheet for today's episode so you can make sure you solidify your understanding of the key takeaways from near. I al that link is in the show notes. Jordan dot com slash podcast. If you'd like some tips on how to subscribe to the show just go to Jordan harbinger dot com slash subscribe subscribing the show is absolutely free. It just means that you get all the latest episodes downloaded automatically to your podcast player so you don't miss a single thing and now back to our show with near ear I l what is it with the kids in the ipads right because I know that just sounded like an eighty year old man but I'll tell you right now now that I've had a kid people are like Ooh you know. Don't get too much screen time but I see other people being like y you gotta bring the IPAD. That's the nuclear option but I also see other people who just give if their kid an IPAD and they go you know he likes to watch stuff while we're out however I can't help but notice and this is not scientific right. There are plenty of kids that develop different different ages. I can't help but notice that the three year old that's on the IPAD for four hours a day doesn't talk in complete sentences and has a lot of temper tantrums and again small sample size but the kids who are made to sit with their parents and eat dinner and talk and play with the adults are much more mature. My sample size of this is like half a dozen but I still can't can't help but notice that I notice now as a new parent that scares me because I can definitely see myself being like. I just need five minutes without him crying. Give him the IPAD and then two hours later. I'm like this. This is great. I just took a nap but there's a reason that it's easy and it's kind of what he called like. Robbing Peter to pay Paul bread works now and then suddenly in three years. I'm like why can't my Mike Kid have normal social interactions or why does my kids scream and cry. The second thing is pried from his grasp. Just eat a meal and can't go to school. Like what am I looking for here. It seems like this is a problem so what we need to do is to think about this with a harm perspective as opposed to fear perspective. We need to ask ourselves what the cost cost. What's the price of kids using these technologies as well as far selves as well. The evidence doesn't show that this stuff are brains than than it's hijacking our brains. The evidence just isn't there and the same goes for our kids. We know that studies find that normal amounts of screen time are not deleterious to our kids wellbeing. No Oh study has found that two hours or less of extracurricular screen time that's age appropriate content right. We have to remember age appropriate a lot of kids. I wouldn't want my kid to see at various ages just because she's not ready for it. I wouldn't let her walk into the Public Library and just take any book off the shelf or something. She's just not ready for at that age so it has to be age appropriate content but we know oh that around two hours or less doesn't seem to have any negative effects now below a certain age the American Pediatrics Association tells us that kids shouldn't have exposure to these devices in screens below although I think it's around two years old we don't use our IPADS as an nanny. Some of my daughter's first words were IPOD IPAD. Oh my gosh and she would enter into these fits. It's you know give me that. I bet she would go crazy and we had to figure out a solution so the good news is there are solutions. We have to find a metaphor to understand this stuff and so good. Metaphor is swimming pool our swimming pools dangerous. They're incredibly dangerous. Kids drown all the time in swimming pools but do we keep our kids from ever enjoying the fun of diving into a pool forever. No we teach them how swim and so what we did at five years old was we sat down with her and we told her that the cost of using these products is the opportunity cost and nothing more. It's not melting your brain not dangerous. We don't want her to get some weird. You know negative associations. She needs these devices in the future. They're going to be increasingly important right if you're not online. You're really really falling behind so we want her to have a good relationship with technology but we told her look the cost is you can't spend time with. Mommy and Daddy while you're on your IPAD watching a video. You can't play with your friends. You can't read the book that's the real price. Is this opportunity cost and then what you WanNa do is empower them to take steps for themselves to put the stuff in its place a a lot of parents. Bring down the hammer and say no. I you're going to use the devices when I say you can only go on Youtube type in parents smashing ipad or parents smashing mashing xbox. You'll see thousands of videos of parents teaching their kids a lesson by smashing their device and of course digits that doesn't teach their kids anything but how to have a temper tantrum turn themselves yeah exactly yeah you see those dads that are like. It's like a freakout reaction video and it goes. Let's like my dad's about to run over my brother's playstation games with the LAWNMOWER. Look at this guy who's going to the Games of the lawnmower and you just see this kid have a meltdown in his brother's like secretly filming it. The underlying psychological phenomenon here is a little bit. It's sad yes. Some of those are fake but these are truly addicted. People I mean this is a public freak out of the parents and it's a parenting failure of course but to see some kid just breakdown in a lump of flesh in crying because of this is really sad like that's real addiction. There's a real brain chemical issue happening when you I feel like your life is over because of this right and I get the kids overreact but this is bad there obviously lacking some psychological nutrients you put up they require if this is causing the net much emotional damage so kids are a protected class. The advice I give to parents is not going to be the same advice I would give to their kids. Kids need special protection. One of them is that we as as parents need to stop using these devices as Johnny's all the time right so when we travel for example hey that's fine if we're an airplane and there is no opportunity cost to using that device right. Where's she going to go. She's on an airplane. She can watch whatever she wants but we had a conversation with her and this was five years old. We had a conversation with her and said. How much screen time do you want. What right here's the cost. The price is that you can't spend time doing other things what's good for you and she kind of looked at me and she was like really. I get to decide and I thought she was going to say like all day and here's what she said she said two episodes to meaning netflix episodes so that's about forty five minutes and again. There's no studies that show that age appropriate content in two hours or less has any deleterious effects so I said sure okay forty five minutes. That's what you yourself want. How are you going to make sure that that's the amount of time you spend on the device nice. I wanted to give her the power and I'll tell you why just a minute why that's so important so by giving her the power. I showed her tools that proved to me. She was ready to dive into the pool right the way you know. A kid is ready to dive in the pool is can they play in the water safely so I wanted to see at five years old if she knew how to make sure that she could turn off the device at that time was up because I didn't WanNa. Take that device away and this is a mistake. A lot of parents make they take the device away why the devices come built in with tools to do do the job for you. So what did she do at the time this was when she was five years old now. There's a very easy way to do which I'll tell you about but she would go to the microwave. We used to have this microwave that was on the counter top level she she would put in forty five minutes into the little timer the microwave had built in and then when the timer beeped time was up and we told her look if we find that you can't regulate yourself that you can't can't use the timer and stick to it then. We're going to have another conversation about this but until this day now she's eleven years old. She still does that now. She doesn't even either microwave now. The technology comes built old in with these tools apple screen time will shut off certain APPS after certain amount of us so now. It's not big bad daddy having to be the bad guy the HAP- does it for her because that's what she set the timer to do. What we find is that throughout the annals of history parents have complained about their kids being crazy right. This is nothing yeah in our generation was video. Games was melting our brain and television and heavy metal at the comic books. I mean the list goes on and on and on and this this is a phenomenon whereby we parents want something to blame desperately. We are so desperate to have something outside of us. That helps us say you see my kids are acting crazy because of such such the problem is when we jumped to such quick conclusions and this is kind of a theme throughout my book is how we jumped to all these conclusions with all sorts of distractions. The problem is we never get to the root cause and so here's the real root cause the real root cause of why kids over us these tech distractions attractions is because they're not getting enough of the psychological nutrients. This is called the needs displacement hypothesis so there are to researchers who have been researching the topic of motivation since nine hundred seventy s by the name of Desi and Ryan and their self determination theory is the most widely studied and widely accepted theory of human flourishing wellbeing in motivation and they say that every human on the face of the earth needs three things. I call these psychological nutrients. I like the metaphor with food right at three macronutrients of fat protein and carbohydrates welfare psychological well-being you need three things competency autonomy and relatedness those three things you have to have or you will look for them somewhere aware just like if you don't have enough protein Caracas fat. You're going to look for them somewhere and so when we think about our kids lives these days okay. Let's take these one time competency one thing that has correlated with the rise of anxiety depression even suicide among teens. Yes one of those things is that now we have digital technology that we didn't have before we also have another correlating. Factor is the rise of standardized testing kits. Today are tested all the time these standardized tests teaching towards the test tells a significant portion of our children. You are not competent again. How how do those tests say. You're not competent when you're tested four times a year as students in Philadelphia. There is a kindergarten in Philadelphia tests kindergarteners four times a year on a standardized test. If you're not one of the students that does well on these tests. What message do you get your not good. Oh Yeah if you don't do well on it because I remember taking from Michigan and we took the California achievement test and I'm not sure why maybe California got those things I because this is the eighties and I remember taking it and being like I don't get with this is at all and they're like just do your best. There's no grade and I did okay on it and I felt great about it but you're right. If you got like thirty the eighth percentile or whatever however they measure those things you'd feel terrible about yourself exactly when you look at the countries that have the best educational systems in the world particularly the Nordic order countries they don't do this. They believe that childhood is for free play not testing because they don't want kids to get this message. That learning is about being incompetent open it. They don't want that message to be conveyed to so what kids do when they don't feel competent in the real world and we all need this by the way adults as well. We need this feeling of competency. What kids do and they don't feel competent? In the real world well they go online and you can be the master of roadblocks or minecraft right now. You're the God of that universe. You feel incredibly competent because you've mastered this environment and then autonomy we know that children in this country have ten times as many rules and restrictions placed on them as the average adult twice twice as many restrictions on a child today as an incarcerated felon so they're only two places in society where you can be told what to do what to think where to go what what to eat who to be friends with hat address at school and prison and so is it any surprise when our kids have no agency when they have no autonomy in their lives when they're constantly constantly being told what to do all day that they rebel and by the way this is why teens have rebelled for a very long time the differences that today kids by rebelling. They turned their technology would you hey in our days. You know what we did. We we vandalized stuff. We like rebel. You know a couple of weeks ago. My daughter watched this American classic movie American Graffiti. I don't know if you've seen this. It's I think it came out in the nineteen American graffiti. It's this is the movie that they've based happy days on okay. It's all about the good old days when kids were good at squeaky clean. No Oh the movies horrible the movies about how kids drunk drive and drag race and get into accidents and all kinds of trouble because that's what kids did to rebel back then now today day the one of the stats. We don't talk about that. Kids today are safer than ever. This is the safest time in history to be a child in America. It's great. That's good news. Everything's gone down true and see C murder. Rates incarceration rates drug use. Everything has gone down with one exception of suicide. Everything else has gone down to record lows part of that is because guess what if if you wanted to invent a device to keep kids off the streets off the Rosen safe behind doors. Hey maybe these digital technologies aren't so bad. It actually does have some positive effects that we need to understand as well so a back to that idea of autonomy when you don't have a sense of control of your life because you're constantly told what to do in school all day where you go. You go play minecraft. You play four night because there you feel in control. You have a sense of agency in purpose and then finally relatedness we know since the nineteen fifties this is the work of Peter Gray great we know since the nineteen fifties play the amount of time kids. Hafer play has declined dramatically used to be that neighborhoods in America would sing with the sounds of kids. Playing playing doesn't happen anymore. Either are kept indoors because parents are freaked out by the media about stranger danger and kids being abducted or they're so hyper scheduled with Kumaon come on and Mandarin and swimming lessons that they have no time to just play and so that sense of relatedness goes unmet plays where kids figure out their place in the world right. It's one thing if a parent tells you something it's another one of your peers says chill out. If you want me to be nice to you you have to be nice to back and so where two kids go if they don't get that in the offline world they on social media that's where they can get. A sense of relatedness is through social networks so we have to dive deeper into the root cause us of why our kids do these behaviors without just looking for the scapegoats. The proximal causes versus. The root causes are so we got a bunch of kids stuff that I think surprises no one and a lot of people maybe if they don't have kids like find. Maybe I'll tune out. Maybe I'll remember this later. However it's not just kids that are getting distracted and that are getting screwed up by technology especially unmitigated or unlimited technology? If you're like me. You've got your phone near your bed and I'll tell you right now. There hasn't been a night where I haven't been like why. Why am I still on my phone. Or why. Is My wife on her phone. Now we have a baby so she's up at night scrolling through instagram. 'cause she's feeding the baby so it's forgivable but before. I'd be like hey can you. Turn your phone brightness down on and bed right. This is ridiculous. We should not have this and you've brought research to the table here that says a third of Americans would rather give up sex for a year versus is partying with their phones for that long which is crazy so I may be drawn bridge here that doesn't exist our phones messing with our relationship our intimate relationships with our partner well. I think phones are messing with a lot of things if I'm having to play. My sex life on my phone is what let's let's go back this. It's certainly a tool. That will justify behaviors that you might later regret. I'll say a kyle ever that the good news is that we can do something about it and this is certainly hits home for me. I remember a few years ago part of the reason I wrote this book because I was struggling with distraction myself in many ways and I remember my sex. Life was really suffering for it. I've been married almost twenty years now. I'm happy I have any sex life but at the time it was even worse I remember we would go to bed and my wife would fondle the iphone and I would caress my computer as opposed hiding intimate with each other that sucked right right that was horrible and so we took a step back and looked at some of the research that I've done it up until that point in researching this book and we took some steps to figure out what to do about it and so that's where you can really follow this four step model so the four steps. We didn't get to earlier actually when it comes to. How do we actually become indestructible? foorsteps quick number one is to master our internal journal triggers understand what we're escaping from. We need to understand that any distraction not just tech distraction whether it's television whether it's too much booze whatever might be any distraction is an escape from uncomfortable uncomfortable sensations kind of uncomfortable feeling so we have to dive into what exactly were escaping so that's what we have to do to master those internal triggers then the second step is to make take time for traction plan our days or somebody else will that these days we have no right to call something a distraction unless you know what it is distracting you from and this very simple principle just making time in your day for what's important for you is absolutely critical. Can we can go into more depth on how to do that. The third step is to hack back. These external external triggers right. I'll be the first to tell you. I'm an industry insider. I know that these devices are made to get as much of your tension as they possibly can. That's their business model of course is that what a surprise to anyone right like John just facebook that monetize that way. Sotos than your time so to CNN's everything every media outlet monetize by turning your eyeballs into cash but the good news is again. We can hack back. We don't have to be mindless observers here. We can do something about this and it's actually not all that hard and in the fourth step is to make what's called a pre commitment to prevent distraction with packs. We can take steps now to make sure we don't get distracted in the future. If there's one thing I really want folks I remember is that the antidote to impulsiveness is forethought so I don't care what Algorithms Google develops what. Ai Whatever happens that makes these things so engaging in enticing at the end of the day from every technology I've seen today. Maybe they'll invent something that plugs into your brain at some future point but that's science fiction as of today for right now. There's nothing that we can't plan ahead for nothing. That is one skill that we as Homo sapiens have it no other animal in the face of the earth has is the ability to see the future with high hi fidelity and so we can plan ahead right if you're waiting to go on a diet but the chocolate cake is on its way to your mouth on the four. It's too late. You've already lost if you're sleeping ping next year cell phone. It's too late. They're going to get you these. Things are designed to distract you. So how do we work our way through this model so we have to first master. Those internal triggers understand what is it that we're trying to escape from for me it was that I was stressed about work right that I had trouble stopping checking email checking my devices because I was was worried about you know what if somebody needs me what if something happens and I need to respond urgently but then the more I learn tactics to cope with that discomfort. I learned that was irrational that you know nothing it. Is that urgent that I can't wait until tomorrow morning that I deserve. I owe it to myself to have quality sleep so that leads me to the next step of making time for traction so so i WanNa be clear. I'm not imposing my values on anyone. I want people to live their values now. One of my values is to be the kind of person that takes care of their physical health right values are attributes of the person you want to become and so one attribute of the person I want to become as I want to be the kind of person that takes care of their physical health and we all know the research is it's pretty conclusive at this point. Sleep is important but I wasn't getting good sleep. I also wasn't getting good sex because I wasn't going to bed. I kept on my devices and so this idea idea of making time for traction meant that I had to put time on my calendar to not only sleep but time to prepare to go to bed is so is literally on my calendar older go shower. It says that because I had to back into okay if I want to be in bed by ten PM that means I need to start showering and get ready for bed around nine thirty so that stuff is actually in my calendar calendar for less than fifteen minutes. I don't put it in by put in for about thirty. Minute chunks is a good increment and this is for all different areas of our life not just when it comes to getting to bed on time but anything that is important into that is consistent with our values whether it's exercise whether it's reading a book working on a big project spending time with our friends family kids that stuff actually really does need to have time in your calendar or just won't get done and then the third step so hacking back these external triggers so this is a simple one. Sorry Jordan here you gotTa take my advice. Just don't have your phone in your bedroom and not only that I advise no screens in the bedroom not only for you and Jen but also for anyone out there with kids. There is no good reason that a kid needs have have a television in there. Yeah I agree anything. That disrupts sleep for a child is just not necessary. Asleep is so important. We don't want screens. We don't want ipads. We don't want phones in their Aram's at night. You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest near. I L will be right back after this. This episode is sponsored Ronsard in part by Biz Council. One of the first things business owners do when they finally make lots of dough is hire a lawyer or law firm on retainer good news. That's what Biz Council ansell does. This is a genius fricken idea that I wish existed when I started my companies Biz Council. 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We really appreciate it now for the conclusion of our episode with near L. Let me throw this at you though so no phone in the bedroom what what if somebody does need to get a hold of you urgently then what this what my wife says right. I'm happy turning my phone on airplane mode and she's like no. What if someone needs to get a hold of us and it's emergency and I'm like. I have no good answer for that because we don't have landlines because it's twenty nineteen. What do you do. Do you have somewhere near you that if the phone rang you could still hear it like in the room outside of your bedroom. Yeah I guess the answer. Then what is leave it in the bathroom adjacent turned with the ringer on or something like that. I guess I don't know the the real cost here for the one in a million chance that something really does happen in the middle of the night right that you know. Oh my God your house sunfire which issued no because you're in your but let's say there's some kind of really traumatic matic event that happens in someone needs to get a hold of you immediately remember. You're paying a price. You're paying the price from checking instagram every frigging night for that one million chance that someone one might call you if something terrible happens a little ridiculous. I don't think the cost benefit is worth it but let's say you really need that peace of mind. Here's what you do you charge your cell phone in a different room. Turn turn the volume all the way up on the ringer and then set it to do not disturb while driving the do not disturb while driving mode works like this when and someone texts or calls you it will send them an auto reply. You can customize anything you want. It comes default and says I'm driving if this is urgent text me with the word urgent. I've customized it so that says I'm indestructible. If this is urgent text me with the word urgent if somebody takes the time to type the word urgent that call call or text message will come through and the phone will start ringing but if it's not urgent as ninety nine point nine percent of the time it's not urgent. It'll just wait for you until tomorrow morning so that's one hacked to give a try. That's really cool. I'm doing that because I've also been getting a ton of those spam calls. Oh I got another solution for that okay. This was killing me. Oh my God I get four times today these Goddamn robocalls so this is another way to hack back your technology right. We can hack these tools in a way that these folks trying to get our attention to hack our attention canting about there's there's a great APP called robocaller. I have no affiliation with him whatsoever. I just really liked the product called robocaller. When a robocaller 'cause they have this database. That's all connected with all the users who we used to have these phone numbers in a registry and a robocaller calls your phone. It plays a fake message and you can record your own message. So Mind Says Alo- ALO- Hello the Robo callers will either hang up in which case. You'll never get the call or once in a while. You'll get somebody who start responding to it and then finally figured out wait a minute. This is just recorded message and then they'll put you on the list of don't call this person. He's Jerky as recorded message. That's GonNa waste our time and it works like a charm. I get zero robocalls anymore. It's wonderful so this is a great way of hacking back technologies awesome. I've never heard of that in my life but I love the idea is that there's some way to waste their time. I'm as well doesn't it though tell them that. It's a valid phone number if they call back they're going to get the same recording and it's so they can just call all day yeah exactly exactly. It doesn't bring your phone. It goes straight to robocaller by the way we can also do some of these same hacks you know we forget as much as we complain about these tools being so addictive and hijacking our brain etc that rubbish rush. There's tons of free tools. robocaller happens to be something that has a a nominal fee. I think it's a few bucks in his a free tool for example one thing that I found wasted so much of my time was when I would read an article online right. I go read something online just for a quick sec and then I'd find myself falling Internet rabbit hole of you know one article after another another article after another article so I made myself this rule that I never read anything online. If I see an article online I use an APP called pocket to save it to my app on my phone and then when I'm in the gym. This is called temptation bundling so this is a triple win here. When I'm in the gym is when I have this other. APP called voicestream stream that will play the text of those articles for me right. So what did I do. I reduce the distraction of not doing something I didn't want to do when I'm reading articles online and now why also have this incentive to go to the gym to go on a walk. 'cause I get to listen to these articles played to me right. So that's another example of hacking. I just got voice drain rain because I get galleys all the time from companies and they're like hey. Will you interview this author and I'm again. I WanNa read the audiobook. I want to read the whole book and they're like well. Here's a PDF jeff like look. It's GonNa take me fifteen hours to read a pdf in four hours to listen to the book. Send me the audio and the like here's the problem we don't own the rights or here's the problem he's in studio with now and we can't get it to you until the day before the interview and I I'd been doing a lot of okay block off the whole day before I interview this guy because I've gotta read his his whole eleven our book and do all of my research in prep and everything now I found out about voicestream and willing to it in the show notes. They'll send me a PDF. I dump bump into voicestream. Here's the thing I think it's for people who are visually impaired right so it's really good at being like Oh. That's a margin thing oh that's a footnote ignore that and they have better than Siri voices that premium that are like fifteen bucks and I think you get one for free with the APP and it will read you anything so yeah dumping an article in from pocket or just dumping a website in there is great and it syncs with clouds so if you read on your ipad and then you take your phone out for a walk it's not like Oh. Let's start over and you can pick how many words per minute it reads ad so yes. I was just GonNa say that I listened way faster than I read. The average person read about three hundred words a minute but I've got voice room cranked up to about five hundred words a minute and still sounds fine. I can understand it I can't do that. I'm taking notes and stuff so I do like to eighty but I'm also very slow you know. I'm not reading articles goals either most of the time reading books but I cannot do that. Believe it or not. I listen faster than I read too and I listened at two eighty which is like two x plus but when I've read I'm that person who will read you to page. Get to the bottom of the page. Go Crap. What was it the top of the page when I was in law. School took me ten minutes to read a page. I'm not even kidding granted their legal cases but man. I was so distracted tractable. This has been a game changer for me in many many ways. I didn't even think about dumping articles in there. Though that's brilliant yeah oh I do that all the time and I saved so much time not reading articles on on my screen because of course you know the New York Times Atlantic all these publications great content but they are designed to get you hooked just as much as the social media companies are they design them to keep you reading and reading and reading so you don't have to sit there without knowing what to do after do save it and hack back so that you're not wasting your time. You're reading these articles on your schedule. Joel not on the content maker schedule. Oh by the way one more thing I wanted to add with the story of my wife the fourth step preventing distraction with packs. This was probably the most impactful the technique we use patio. Act Right Packs Right Agai okay so there are three types of pacts an effort packed a price pact or an identity packed and so the way the three packs work. Basically they're all pre-committed. There's something we do now to make sure we don't get distracted in the future so what we did we use an effort repacked effort pack says that you put some bit of friction some kind of effort in between you and the behavior you don't. WanNa do so the behavior we didn't want to do was to use devices. This is at bedtime wanted to go to sleep and maybe have a little snuggle time as well. So what do we do. I went to the hardware store and I bought this five dollar outlet timer and this outlet timer will turn off off anything that's plugged into it at any time you set and what did. I plug into it my Internet router so every night ten PM Internet shuts off now. Of course I could turn turn it back on. If I really wanted to write I get underneath my desk and fiddle with the router and you know get it started again but it's a little bit of friction little bit of effort that reminds me. This is really what I WANNA do. With my time. I don't WanNa get distracted. I WANNA start getting ready for bed and have some time with my wife and so now actually there are devices that has built in the Eero router that has this exact thank built in and you can actually turn on and off certain devices based on different times of day. That's how we use all four techniques to solve this problem with distraction of mastering the internal triggers making time for traction hacking back the external triggers and then finally preventing distraction with Pat. Does the router thing let you turn off device. Internet so hey you can't connect with ipads but like maybe bureau alarm system and all that can still be online or your cameras absolutely yes so that's why we stopped using the outlet timer because they couldn't do that. It just turned off the router it for the the house. There's a many products now circle eero many routers now that you can say okay. I just want you to turn off my laptop my phone Internet access but not home security system or the other smart yeah yeah because I'm like our lights are on hugh and I don't need to like deal with Oh. You were off line. All night on your camera turned off. That's just such a huge pain. You know what's so cool about it. Though oh to it conditions you so that you don't at first you have that feeling it's ten o'clock. I can't use the Internet anymore but eventually it starts conditioning you into saying oh it's nine forty five. It's nine. Oh you know you start realizing okay. The Internet's turn off any minute now. Let me just wrap this up real quick so that I'm not surprised and you actually start getting this much healthier routine around using your technology in it last but not these. I know that one of my biggest pain points is always email. Other people who run businesses run have media stuff like me are like why do you answer all of your email and the answer is because 'cause I prioritize fan interaction pretty highly. It's one of my top priorities actually because I feel like interacting with people who engage with what you create is how you create super fans and people oh that will listen for a long time and give you good feedback so that you can get better you know it's important and a lot of creators ignore it. They actually elevate themselves above engaging with their fans which I think is kind of garbage edge or they do like do one hour of a month on periscope. It's like I don't know I don't really see myself doing that. However I do end up with seven hundred emails in my inbox that piled silence over a week or two that need to be replied to and there are a lot of tricks. I know you and Shane Snow who's also been on the show came up with to reduce email time by quite a bit. Can you dive into those a little bit. You're the one who's got formula for me. I just Kinda go. Oh don't look at it until next week. That's not really a good strategy yeah. I think we can do better than that for you so I think we'll we start. Start is to break this down to first principles so let's do a little math equation here. The total amount of time spent on email is a function of two things the number of emails you get times the number of minutes. you spend per email so. I Call This T. N. T. Total amount of time spent on emails a function of the number of emails multiplied by the time spent Karima so in order to reduce the amount of time you spend on email. You have to do a few things right. You have to reduce the number of emails you get as well as the time spent per each and every message passage now using these techniques. Shane was my guinea pig and he said that using these techniques he decreased the amount of time he spent on email by about ninety percent so there's a lot what you can do is is in the section on hacking back these external triggers. I'll give you just some of my favorite techniques. The first technique I love it really changed my relationship with email. I'm so much more productive active four is when you actually look at the research on where people waste time on email. It's not the checking. It's not the replying it's the rechecking. That's the time way and why does this happen because e mail us it. has this variable rewards mechanic right the slot machine lake nick psychological phenomenon where every time you check him. What did I get an email is a good news. Bad News is it urgent and non urgent all that provides variable reinforcement that habituated choate's us to check in check in check and check the new rule is going to be that every email you get. You only touch twice. The first time is when the open it and the second time is when you reply to it so every time you get an email. You have to do one of three things to it. You can either delete archive it. If it's nonsense or you oh you label it with one of two labels. Many people use labels incorrectly. They label things base by subject matter. I think it's a big waste of time because search functionality so good these days. You never really need that folder type label system. I think it's a waste of time instead. I want you to label each and every email by the one thing that matters in that email from a time management the perspective ask yourself when doesn't need a reply so then you're categorizing into two categories of does this need a reply today meaning. It's kind of urgent or can it wait this week so either today or this week then back to step to that. We talked about around making time for traction. You need time in your day for email checking checking so every night I have an hour and a half to only answer the urgent messages. Okay only the things that need reply today so my email inbox you know goes down dramatically in terms of my workload every day because I don't need to answer every email. Why am I wasting time on emails that don't need a reply right away only reply to those emails that you've labeled labeled as emails that require a reply today then once a week. I call it message Mondays. I've got a big old four hour block to just plow through all those emails males that can wait till the end of the week and this is effective for a couple of reasons one. We know the data shows that were much more effective at batch processing tasks especially email. You don't Wanna a check email all day long. You WanNA process them at your desk much faster. When you have all ten fingers oppose it just two thumbs on your phone and you flush through all those emails for the end of the week and second. This is a big one. You would be amazed how many emails when you just let them wait for a little bit. Take care of themselves people figure out their issues for themselves the group figures at the solution they're looking for or it's just crushed under the weight of some other priority and it's no longer important so many of those emails that you would have otherwise replied lied to earlier in the week. You don't need to reply to them. If you just slow it down instead of this ping pong game shooting emails back and forth and back and forth we can slow that down the game a little bit right so that we receive fewer emails every day remember. If you want to get less email you have to send less email in every unit of time for every day. That's that's a technique that really will reduce the amount of time you spend an email every day's labeling those emails making time in your calendar to only answer the urgent ones every day and then batch process the ones for the end of the week. I definitely have been guilty of prioritizing email or putting email on the calendar and then going. Oh I'll just take a call put over that e mail slot and then doing that over and over and over until I have an insurmountable mountain of email the other thing that I've done that actually did work aside from scheduling. Maybe half an hour a day because you can plow through seven hundred emails pretty damn quick. If you have half an hour a day. You'll get it in four or five days which sounds like a ridiculously long time but actually I have a plug in for g mail. It's called something I'm an inbox pause or paused remember delivery and it's actually quite useful because what happens is when you send emails. You can send emails as much as you want. The problem is then people start replying right away and you go oh every email I send someone goes great looping in my assistant a assistant here Jordan Goodman and then you're like oh my gosh. I just send an email in two came back back. This is like a boomerang that has babies so I paused the incoming e mail and then when I send the email it's fine and then after that accession I can pause it. Yes closed the email window and yell have ninety one come back but I won't be answering them during that same session making it feel like I'm drowning exactly not only can you pause the receive but you can also use sen later. Is there anything worse than that email that you get on Friday afternoon at six o'clock. You get a darn email that you're going to have to reply over the weekend right so this is where we have some etiquette around our email. We can send later. We don't have to it. We can get that email inbox but doesn't mean that we have to have it sent and received at the same time you can use this and later functionality so that the person receives it a little bit later so you're not constantly playing this email ping pong game and then there's one thing I wanted to just say real quick around you know when you schedule time and yet you find yourself scheduling over that time that happens to a lot of folks it is a very common circumstance now the answer to that however is not to give up on the system the the answers to understand where the system breaks down because you know if you're anything like me. I would constantly distracted by the same things again and again and so what's that quote that insanity. He is doing the same thing and expecting different fake. Einstein quote yeah the fake Einstein who knows who set it. This is what I'm trying to answer at least now. You can have a system to understand that there only three reasons why you got distracted either. It was an internal trigger an external trigger or a planning problem so that next time you can do something about it and so this is what it means is to become indestructible. It doesn't mean you never get distracted. That's impossible it means you strive to do you say you're going to do you get better at managing your time and managing your life near. Thank you very much super useful of course but you know it's funny. People always think well I do this or I don't have a problem with this but this is the boiling frog with email especially with devices in the room as well because you think I know not to have my phone in my room so it's okay if I have my phone in my room right. I know this is bad for you so I'm since I have an awareness of that. I'm mitigating negating all the damage done by that nope or like. I know that the ipads not good for the kids so I try not to give it to him but then it's like in the moment at that restaurant during that temper tantrum you're like okay screw it right and then it becomes easier and easier to break that rule as you do it once or twice. That's right and we look. We don't have to do all of this stuff right away. The idea here is that the strategy edgy is more important than the tactics tactics are what you do strategies why you do it and if you actually do have a firm understanding of the strategy of the four parts of why we get distracted distracted. You can take steps to mitigate that distraction but you don't have to do it all at once remember. Becoming indestructible is striving to be the kind of person who says what they're going to do doesn't mean and you never ever get distracted so we can start taking some of these steps in various areas of our life. We don't have to do it all at once great big thank Hugh too near I l his book is called indestructible. His other book is called hooked of course will leave that in the show notes for you reaching how to connect with great people much like near and and manage relationships using systems in tiny habits to keep in touch with those people that courses called six minute networking and that's over at Jordan Harbinger. Dot Com slash course procrastination leads to stagnation when it comes to your personal and business relationships so don't do it later do it. Now you gotta dig that well before you're thirsty. Once you need relationships you're too late. Besides it's called six-minute networking for reason it takes four minutes or five but five minute networking was taken so we got six minute networking. That's how this works. I wish I knew this stuff twenty years ago so again. It's all free Jordan harbinger dot com slash chorus and by the way most of the guests here on the show they subscribe to the course in the newsletter. Come join us. You'LL BE IN SMART Company. Speaking of building relationships you can always reach out and or follow me on social. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both twitter and instagram and I'd love to hear from you. This show is produced in association creation with podcast one. This episode was co produced by Jason to Filipo Jason Sanderson and Jen Harbinger show notes and worksheets are by Robert Fogerty music by Evan Viola Viola and I'm your host Jordan Harbinger our advice and opinions and those of our guests on their own and yes. I'm a lawyer but I'm not your lawyer so do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show and remember we rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting which should be in every episode owed so please share the show with those you love and even those you don't in the meantime. Do Your best to apply what you hear on the show. You can live with you. Listen and we'll see you next time.

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Episode 47: He Shoplifted How Much? / Ministry of Darkness - The Lighting Industry News Brief December 14th

A Light Read Read

09:59 min | 5 months ago

Episode 47: He Shoplifted How Much? / Ministry of Darkness - The Lighting Industry News Brief December 14th

"Hello it's monday. December fourteenth and that means two things happy hanukkah and it's time for the lighting industry news brought to you by keystone technologies and their exit outdoor fixtures three types of wall packs traditional. You got full cutoff. He kind of very small one. You got low profiles these are all colors electable so you save on sp sku save on space and you can set it on the day. So you don't have to worry about running around dealing with client problems and they can be built in with photocells on most models that's keystone tech dot com or the link in the description if you please new england lightbulb thief pleads guilty justin farren. Tino stands accused of shoplifting. Four hundred thousand dollars worth of smart bulbs over the past several years The guy is expanding their okabe. Larry the i l. v. document has been updated this year landscape forms has acquired lull. This is a michigan lighting company. Buying a minnesota outdoor furniture maker dally has joined the ip bliss. This is a new market interest group for home smart technology. Get a grip on lighting. We have episode one sixty five talking about one hundred fifty year old company. Cnn robinson and peter gray and how you can stay relevant l. after all this time d. r. horton homes go exclusive with deco lighting. This is a contract with the homebuilder. That'll go live in february. The uk is actually calling for a minister of dark sky. Similar to south korea and france. Now co is moving there l. m. and m. magazine online print version goes out. The last print version is already out. orion extends forty million dollars in retrofit. Deal this turnkey work in wisconsin. Nietzsche is getting to be circadian. Entombing game with a dynamic lighting system signify is expecting growth this year after years of decline. The tsmc will outsource to episode star. This is a gone on silicon. Deal a strong lead is posting order. Strong orders through the first quarter. They provide solutions in china Gm lighting has a new website. It's nice it's mobile. Friendly rexel has partnered with retro lux. This is the audit and product catalogs now on their platform. My supplier in georgia is still providing p eve and nine months out good for them Led requirements in california may harm cannabis. Cross this is in response to amendments to title twenty four robertson motors sues cooper for half a million dollars over warranty issues. Even though it's like a bad sensor problem and they're suing for new fixtures and the installers don't come up in the suit at all and that's odd read more about that both sides of the clearview and kennel settlement claim victory because that's how settlements tend to work like clearview gets to win because they invalidated kennels patent and kennel wins clearview scott gonna make uv parts. It's all good light. Avation will continue in january. Is virtual event at what happens after the spec is written will be hosted on the seventeenth. That's a panel discussion and recapping presentation on budget friendly code. Contrived control complied controls. This is dave speaking on a number of applications topics in market predictions industrial dis as a marketplace where we will reach twenty billion in six years location analytics which tends to rely on led bulbs sensors who will reach twenty seven billion by twenty twenty seven and solar street. Right lighting will grow by four billion by twenty twenty four. An rep agencies. Legrand is expanding their deal with hasley lighting and power to include oklahoma and southern louisiana and legrand again naming specification. Lighting is leading sales reps for new york and new jersey in recommended reading reading. We have steve mesh on programmable. Led drivers dave schiller in one carlos blacker on twenty twenty one utility incentives nine experts on selling human centric leading gabe arnold on micro grids best practices for circadian letting at home tam lights colin lawson on lighting systems in hybrid. Work carl linden on the correct use of uvc disinfection and seven tips for a cannabis culture of cultivation rapid fit research and develop meant nasa along with the crew of the is f. I s. has taken actual photographs of how bad light pollution is over india pakistan and to bat circadian disruption is a cancer risk. This is from the international journal of medicine and lg has created a transparent oleg door this is obviously for displays but it looks crazy we might live in the future And local news events schedule on will update their streetlights. Ontario is creating a new joint program for training. Apprentices hillsborough county florida's upgrading. Their street lights and pi farmers are offered efficiency. Incentives loomis brands is expanding and adding jobs there. Cuyahoga falls ohio their distributor. And they're hiring. Forty people to parks in the uk have achieved. Dark dark skies. Status yorkshire dales north york moors. Kozushima is recognized as a dark sky. Island this is in the eu archipelago not far from shimoda. It's the second dark sky. Place in japan and voyager park in duluth is dark sky park place. I for minnesota in project hatbox and oddities. You can build an hindi little add on for your little smart speakers there. That will let remind you when it's listening. You can build a transforming route. Work light with help from chris committee and how to fix your broken holiday lights. I think that might be relevant right now. And in people news felix leading is added. Martin valentine managing director that has been the lighting industry news brief. I have been scott walker. This is brought to you by keystone again. Lincoln the description. If you please and enjoy the music intrusive enjoy your time with nailed. Enjoy the week. Have a good one overby chad. Can we ever go do.

keystone technologies justin farren Four hundred thousand dollars okabe Cnn robinson forty million dollars rexel robertson motors peter gray scott gonna Tino dally tsmc hasley southern louisiana horton steve mesh dave schiller new england carlos blacker
How Free Range Parenting Works

Stuff You Should Know

54:05 min | 2 years ago

How Free Range Parenting Works

"Steffi should know is brought to you by spit an iheartradio podcast with twenty three. And me spit explores the power of the knowledge inside all of us are DNA join them as they start to explore what it means to understand the future of our health and wellness guests and experts get personal sharing stories about what it means to take control of their health and how they committed to a new way of living through data. Welcome to stuff, you should know a production of I heart radio. How stuff works? Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh clarkin. There's Charles W Chuck Bryant and Jerry over there. And this is stuff, you should know about kids. Can I see away right off the bat here? I presumed you what? All right. There's a couple of CO as I want to issue one. We are not telling anyone how to parent their children. Indeed and two we realized that the whole concept of free range parenting. That will follow is comes from a place of extreme privilege. Yes. To be able to entertain the idea free range parenting comes from place of extreme privilege. Okay. I can I meant that. Or should I wait until we talk about that part to kind of amendment now you get minute. So so to me free range parenting having the freedom to free range parent as I what I saw it ties in with parenting. That's already being done by people who might not have a choice. Are you saying that the the the the ability to choose whether you want to free range parent or not is privileged? Yes. Okay. Yes. Agreed. I gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and again, we'll get into that. But we'll get into that at the end. But I just wanted to go ahead and lead off because a lot of privilege involved with being able to say, you know. That you want free range parent. Are you going to are you going to land one way or another on on whether or not I support free range parenting? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Emily, and I don't title it or say, hey, I think we should do this as a style. But we as it turns out are sort of dabbling in free range parenting a bit as much as you can for three and a half year old. So you're listening to your instincts. No, I've never read a parenting book, not knocking them. But I've never read one we parent by instinct. Uh-huh. And our daughter has always had a lot of room to free play an explorer and figure stuff out on her own and fall down and get back up and all that all that stuff. Okay. I'm reading between the lines. You guys haven't decided yet. All right. So ready for your age parenting? Go, okay. So do you. Remember when we were kids Chuck. Yeah. Back when we used to hang out when we were kids, and we would go ride bikes together like sunrise, we had no idea where we were going to go. But it might involve a swamp can involve glacier, there may have been like rail writing hobos that we shared lunch with who knows what the day was going to bring, but we were up for all that and may or may not have engaged in any of that during that day, and then at the end of the day around sunset, maybe a little later, depending on whether it was summer, not we'd ride our bikes back home say see you tomorrow, go to our respective houses. And then talk the night away on our soup cans. That were connected by a rope. And that was her childhood, right? We turn the sure I have talked about my childhood. Some growing up. You know, I grew up in the woods, basically on Mike and couple acres of land. With a creek and forest not in a subdivision. But on a street with like seven houses in the woods, right in my mother, had a we had this giant iron bell probably about eighteen inches across the on mounted on a big like telephone pole. Yeah. Kinda right beside our driveway in. She would at the you know, when it was dinner time in the evening. She would go pull that bell. And you could hear it from like a mile away this the bell tolling. And that's when Scott ni- where like, all right? We, you know, it's time to go eat after having been out all day long with zero supervision, and I had a great mom like she wasn't neglectful or says just how it was done. Yeah. Where you allege key kid. I know your mom was a teacher. But did she say a home with you? She didn't go back to teaching. She she quit teaching to raise kids, and then started up again when I was like, I feel like eighth or ninth grade or something like that. Okay. Yeah. My mom took off until I was. Like six seven, I guess like kinderg-. No. Maybe she's still around a congratulates about first grade when I was when I started school, and she was like, okay, I'm going back to nursing and then after that point I was a latchkey kid for like the rest of my life. But I had like older sisters who would be home around the time. I would and but I had like my own key to my house that was just a couple blocks away from my school, and I would walk myself or ride my bike myself. And then it'd be home by myself, if my sister was doing something else for a couple of hours until either my mom or my dad showed up, and I think I turned out pretty well too. So that I even had a house-key ever. Well, you guys probably didn't lock your doors. If your mom ring a bell onto telephone pole. The call you in for dinner. I don't think we lock our door. Okay. But, but you were you had free range literally of your your house your yard the woods around you. But here's a really big caveat. From what I've seen. I think a lot of people who are like. Who who aren't familiar necessarily injury free range parenting assume that we could have done anything? We wanted then gotten away with it because we were we had overly permissive parents. That's not that's not the case for me. And I would dare say that wasn't the case for you as well that we actually had plenty of rules and structure, we were just also given a lot of freedom to to do things within that rules in structure, including geographic freedom right for. Sure. Okay. Yeah. So that is what I thought all kids had up to this time. And I knew that there was like such things as piano, and Mandarin lessons or Mandarin classes that kind of stuff like things that kids were taking more more, and they were really busy and stressed out. And they had like like iphones at age seven that kind of thing. But I still thought that this happened. And I was really shocked about shocked as I've ever been in researching and episode of stuff, you should know to find that that is not the case. Case that not only does has this been kinda squeezed out by other activities. It's actually become criminalised behavior by society at large among the parents who are raising children today. I was below away to find the side. I really legitimately didn't know. Yeah. I mean and getting back to the activities. You know, I played soccer in high school. And then I did like church sports, which there's not a lot. I mean, I think we did like maybe one basketball practice a week is. So it wasn't like everyday practice and stuff like that. I never took lessons of any kind like I taught myself guitar and all that stuff. So like, I I don't think I literally ever had a structured post school activity in my life. Yeah. Did you say church sports? Yeah. Played church, softball and basketball. Did like everybody win every game. No. It was actually fiercely competitive. Oh, I'm just kidding. No. No. It was it was legit. Like we had a pretty good basketball team in in the league was pretty impressive to. Yeah. But yeah, I I don't I don't never signed. I never had a single class. Like, the idea of my mom having been like, all right? I'm going to take you to your violin lesson and then on the weekends. We have gymnastics and. And whatever else people are doing these days was just it just we didn't do that. She was just like a play. Right. So so there has been we'll talk about all the reasons why. But there has been a movement away from the kind of childhood we had a very pronounced one. If you if you look at, you know, cultures pendulum swinging one way or another it is swung very far the opposite way to where kids lives are structured down to the minute where they have actual calendars and schedules that they have to keep up with because they have so many things going on. And I and there has come about in reaction to that. An antithesis, basically, and it is nothing more than letting kids grow up the way that you, and I did and that and it has become so novel in the face of of the world in the culture that we have in raising kids in the United States now that it has its own name. It's a movement they have to go to court to defend themselves. It's so weird. But really if you strip it down and look at it all they're doing is raising their kids the way you, and I and and Jerry, I'm sure was was raised. Well, yeah. I mean to a certain degree, but the whole idea, and it's not just like I want you to grow up the way. I did. It's what it really is is an argument that says, you know, what? Kids will grow up healthier and happier if they have freedom to play and they have freedom to fail and freedom to get in a playground scrap in to work it out with another kid on their own and figure things out for themselves. They will end up better people because of this. It's not only or I have nostalgia for my childhood it, it's an, and you know, there's a lot of research into this now or some research that says no what we're doing is is trying to make better future. Adults by not hovering over my child, scheduling them to death and. You know, every time they fall run over pick themselves up, and like in, you know, rock them to sleep. You know, if they get a boo, boo. Right. So I sound so judgy. I don't mean that. Well, let's let's just take a second. Let's take a break real quick and like ourselves, and then we'll come back, and we'll really get into what for your age parenting is well now. Road driven in your one. Learn thing or two from Josh John did stuff, you should know. Right. Hey, everyone. I wanna talk to you about Boll and branch B O L L andbranch yet. Bollandbranch means getting a great night's sleep is easier than ever because they offer the world softest sheets, which I mean, there's not too many things better than that. That's right, man. Everything they do is designed for your comfort from their one hundred percent organic cotton signature soft sheets to their cozy throws to their plush plush towels. Yep. Emboldened branch products are designed with you and your families comfort in mind, which is why they have thousands of five star reviews, and they're even loved by three US presidents, and we're not going to tell you who they are. So Boll and branch wants you to love your purchase. So they offer a no risk thirty day trial and free shipping. We doubt you'll want to send them back because once you sleep on their sheets, you'll never wanna sleep on anything else. But still so just go to bollandbranch dot com today for fifty percents off your first set of sheets, that's B O L L, andbranch dot com. Using our promo code S. Y S gay. Okay. Chuck. So I think you demonstrated something that has has made free range parenting. Very unpalatable to a lot of a lot of parents who don't raise their kids their way. And that it seems to be a reaction almost an in your face to some people reaction or judgment of that helicopter style parenting where you're always kind of around your kid, there stare entire life is very structured and supervised including playtime and that free range parenting is meant to be a reaction to that. And in some ways, it is a reaction to that. But it also stands on its own. And if you step back and look at it and look at free range parenting, not as a reaction to helicopter parenting, but as its own thing is as philosophy for how to raise a kid and you strip away like the judge Innis and all that stuff it holds up to me. And like, you said there's been a lot of a lot a lot more study recently. But the whole thing really started back in two thousand eight. By journalists. It wasn't a child psychologist. It wasn't a child development psychologist. It wasn't a child development child. Analysts psychologist. None of those things may that lasts up, by the way. It was a journalist named Lenore skin Ozzy. Yes. So she is in New York mom in in two thousand eight she wrote a column for the New York sun called why I let my nine year old ride the subway alone. She was in a store one day in Manhattan and her son had been badgering her to be able to ride the subway and bus back home by himself. And finally one day. She said all right great. Let's do this. Here's a subway map. Here's a subway card. Here's twenty bucks. Here's some change for payphone have at it. The kid made at home, and she said he was quote ecstatic with independence what a great. Yeah. In like, she got a lot of blowback from this from like, the judgement goes both ways. I mean, there were people that said it was neglect and abuse for her to do this and let her kid ride the subway alone. Oh, yes. Yeah. If you had to divide the two sides up and start weighing which one was a little judger. You would definitely your hand would be much lower holding the helicopter parents. I for sure. Yeah. If you're a free range kid proponent or you raise your kids following that. There's a whole burden ole social burden that you have. In addition to the burden of raising your kids that you have to put up with for sure. Yeah. And I should point out to you real quick that it all depends on upon your kids who I don't think they're any sweeping generalizations. Sure. My daughter has always been very just instinctively kind of safe and smart about stuff. Yeah. Other kids in her class are just like little wild bandies. And I would probably be a lot more worried. If she was the kind of kid who has an instinct to like jump out of a tree instead of like back down very slowly out of a tree. So right. It's all it's all different depending on your kid. You know or a kid who like can't seem to shake being totally fascinated with matches or knives or something like that. Yeah. I think it was a really good point. Like, it's you shouldn't sweep or generalize. But I think that's an even larger point two people should be left to raise their children how they see fit. Yeah. Given a certain amount of trust invested in the parents that the parent isn't going to harm the kid or harm come to the kid because its their parent. Right. Right. Okay. So this whole thing started with Lenore Skains e and like you said, she got a lot of blowback. But she also got a really positive response to X actually parlayed the whole thing from that New York sun article into a blog that she called free range kids. So from what I understand she coined the term free range kids and started writing about this stuff. And at first a lot of it was just like, it's it's good. It's on its face. It's obvious that this is how you should raise a kid kids need play they need to learn how to pick themselves back up when they fall down. And not only that you're doing a disservice to your kid when you pick them up after they fall down because they're not learning how to get back up themselves and over time, it kind of went as people became more and more enamored with her philosophy or this whole free range kids idea more child psychologist started weighing in and the the whole movement kind of took the shape, and they figured out that four apparent to kind of see the light as the as far as they were concerned, they had to I change the mindset about what kind of world they were raising a kid in. Because if you're a free range kid parent, you probably don't feel as threatened by the world in general as say a helicopter parent would outs for outs. Yeah. For sure I mean, wh when when parents have experimented with us. The. The changes that they've seen in their kids have been pretty striking. If anecdotal there's this one woman. Dana Bloomberg she's a school counselor in suburban Chicago. We should also point out depends on where you live as well. If you lived in a very safe suburb or way out in the country. It's a little different than a kid like in the middle of the city or something like that. But she gave her kid. A lot of free range starting in the second grade and got some neighborhood parents involved in letting their kids to it. And they said before you know, it they had this little, you know, little gang of kids kind of touring around the neighborhood are on their own. And she's getting all these texts from these different parents saying like what a big change has happened in their own kid, one parent even said, it was life changing for her daughter gave her a nuisance of confidence, and that sort of what the free range thing can look like. But like you were saying it all comes down to a swatting appearance. Fear. The biggest fear which is my child. We'll get abducted or my child will get there'll be a sexual predator to target my child or heaven forbid my child, we'll get kidnapped and murdered right? Because you can understand and it's really. To fault somebody who doesn't want their kid wandering around by themselves because they're afraid that something really bad is going to happen to their kid. So kind of the first step to to adopting like a free range kid attitude is to adjust ING how you see the world. And they think they think that with there are several things like if you really fascinated me, I love cultural changes, especially when we can point to different things. Yeah. Seemingly unrelated things that all kind of converge. And this changed the world in ways, you never think of that seems to have happened to produce today's Hilliker parents, or at least to produce the level of of fear the climate of fear that the world is an inherently dangerous brutal sadistic place that has that were children have no call to be wandering around themselves that that is actually you can trace that back to a convergence of. Things that have happened starting in the late seventies and early eighties and in particular, there was some high profile. Child murder cases, basically that all kind of took place between nineteen seventy nine and nineteen Eighty-one. And those really changed a lot of parents minds about things. Yeah. In New York. The very sad story of six year old Eton Patz disappeared and was later found out to have been murdered John Walsh, very famously his son, Adam he's the one that does all the TV shows. Now, I think he's on the hunt on CNN now. Yeah. And really made this his life's work, but his son Adam disappeared and died in nineteen Eighty-one. Obviously the Atlanta child murders from seventy nine to eighty one and this all converged around the same time. Like you're talking about this. These these strange things aligning cable news coming out CNN was launched in nineteen eighty. So all of a sudden you have parents that are getting this. Kind of constant flow of fear from the news about their children. Right because so if a prior to cable news twenty four hour news, if something happened to a kid somewhere in in some states, maybe if it were just particularly egregious or outrageous or everything was kind of set up and just the right way. It would capture the attention of the national media, and you'd hear about it around the country, but that was really really rare. And then second to that the other place that you would hear about child abductions child merger murders horrific like accidents that befell child would be locally, right? Like on your local news that maybe maybe expanded to a region, maybe the state, but it was pretty localized. And so if statistically something like that happened fairly rarely you weren't going to hear about it, very often. And so in your mind, it was a pretty rare thing, and you weren't afraid of the world in general. But what a lot of commentary. And a lot of well, some of the people I ran across in research propose is that with cable news that potential pool of horrible things that befell kids to talk about expanded to the entire nation. Not just local not just regional or even state the whole nation. So now all the bad things happening to all the kids around the nation was potential news fodder. And so when you were watching CNN, it seems like every other story was about a kid who had been obstructed and killed or sexually assaulted or any number of horrible things. And there's really no way to put it other than that that kind of stuff keeps people glued to their televisions. And so it's really in the best interest of news networks like CNN to feed people that because while you're glued to your television. Your also glued to the ads that they show too. And so from this model came a climate of fear that a lot of people point to is like this is the source, and it's. Just CNN CNN gets pointed to because it was the one that started it all that was Ted Turner who came up with this and started the first twenty four hour Cable News Network, but all cable news is guilty of this and became guilty of it pretty quickly because that's the model of cable news, and because cable news laid that foundation and showed like, oh, you got that kind of you can really make some revenue nightly news tried its best to resist that kind of thing. But it kind of had to follow suit a little bit too. So we become more sensational from the eighties onward as well. Not nearly anything like cable news. But compared to how it had been before it was much more sensationalized because it was following the cable news model and all that put together created the nation of why people are just scared to death about the world because we we think that it's way more dangerous than it actually is because the statistics are inflated by hearing about this stuff all the time. Yeah. And there's another couple of things that contributed that skinny pointed out one we live in what she dubs an expert society. So again on cable news or on social media. Like everywhere you turn. There's another expert coming out with a new book. They're trying to sell basically telling you how you're doing it wrong as a parent how you should do it. And then the whole fact that we live in a very litigious society now. So what if I wanna free range parent my kid, and they go down and get their friend out of the house, and they're riding bikes and one of them gets hurt like their parents going to sue me because my kid went and lured them into the the mean streets. Right. Well, yeah. That was another thing that happened Chuck in the seventies. The idea of negligence became really big. And there's what's called the torch revolution to where you went from. Well, you know, your kid was your kid. No, you're the the other kids arm was going to get broken. So you can't get sued for that too. To know that was negligent, and we're going to allow that and more and more case law expanded to to to make people think like lawyers because of it to to your kid was I mean that must have been thing. Because did you ever have the the lawsuit threat from another child? Yeah. That was such a thing. Like, yeah. I'm gonna I'm gonna kick your butter whatever like oh. Yeah. Well, my dad's gonna sue you for all the money. You got. That's right. He's a dentist. That's so funny man to think back in the seventies children threatening lawsuits. Forgotten about that for like, ripping their shirt or something any number of things could could generate a loss. Yeah. But in the end skin easy says, and this is I think a pretty relevant quote. She said all of this stuff combined has convinced parents that they have to be both omniscient and omnicompetent because of fear and monitor every single move that your kid makes. So let's take a break, and we're gonna come back and talk a little bit about the the facts about whether or not your kids are really endanger out on the streets. Right after this. Well now here road trauman. Chalk one learn a thing or two from Josh. Stuff, you should know. All right. Attention everyone. Stop what you're doing because it's time for stamps dot com. That's right. We know you're busy. And you know, you don't have time to go the post office. No, get it to real hassle. That's why stamps dot com we'll swoop in on their white horse to save the day. Yep. Stamps dot com brings all the amazing services of the US postal service right to your computer. Whether you're sending invoices or shipping out products. All you do is use your computer to print official US postage twenty four seven for any letter any package any class of male anywhere. You want to send once it's ready handed off to your friendly, mail carrier or drop it in the mailbox. It's that simple. As right everyone. Save time and money to day. Get a special offer that includes a four week trial plus free postage and a digital scale with no long term commitments, just go to stamps dot com. Click on the microphone at the top of the homepage and type in stuff that's Dame's dot com. Enter stuff. All right, Chuck. So like we were saying to to not be just scared to death because you're letting your kid they walk home from the park or something like that unsupervised, you you have to go through a change in mindset like you have to stop seeing the world's very very scary place, and sometimes statistics can be actually kind of comforting. So the free range kids movement has really, you know, made one of its foundational support poles. And you'd think I would actually be getting better at this all the time. But. Influx he stumbled through something like that. Anyway, they talk a lot about statistics and crime statistics related to kids in particular. And when you look at them and the cold hard light of the day. It doesn't seem like it's a very dangerous world after all right? If you look at the numbers, the National Center for missing and exploited children says that just one percent of the twenty seven thousand missing children cases are non-family objections and that also includes like, friends and acquaintances. So if you're talking about literally a stranger targeting your child and plucking them off a playground. It is exceedingly rare that that happens. Yeah. And so one percent is non family, right? Right. But that also doesn't even break down like if it's a friend or an acquaintance family or something like that. So we'll strangers snatching your kid rarely rarely rarely happens. Yeah. So even even that, even including like friends of the family somebody who's not a direct family member, but known to the kid a non stranger that's two hundred seventy kids at the app in two in two thousand seventeen out of twenty to twenty seven thousand I think which is that's awful for those kids that they were kidnapped. Right. There's that's that's another thing too is when you throw statistics like this. It's really easy to be like see that was it. But you're you don't want to do that. Because to those two hundred seventy families that that's that's all that matters. And that's really important to remember as well when we're kind of tossing out these statistics to. Yeah. And not to make light of family abductions, which is sure you know, ninety one percent of objections those are horrific in traumatic as well. Yeah. We're just talking. About the bare bones of like the fear that if I let my kid go to a park strangers going to pluck them, right? Right. So so so even that even if you look at its twenty seven thousand out of all the kids in the United States in two thousand seventeen twenty seven thousand of went missing in two thousand seventeen and the vast majority of them ran away. So if you're worried that your kid is going to get plucked by a stranger specifically out of a park somewhere because you let them go to the park with the free range parenting. People are saying if you look at the six the chances of that are so small that it's actually not worth limiting your kids freedom of movement because of that outlier possibility it just doesn't it just just proportionate response to that risk is what they're saying. Right. If you wanna talk about the worst thing that you can imagine which is a child murder from nineteen eighty to two thousand eight. Statistics about murders of children under five years old sixty three percent of the time. The parents are the ones who did it followed by twenty three percent. So that's eighty six percent total twenty three percent or male acquaintances. So like, you know, mom's boyfriend or something like that seven percent or other relatives. So only three percent of all murders of young children are strangers. Right. So again and again dress. Where addressing the fear of strangers doing something to your child not making light of these other statistics and their parents out there who are like good. That's enough. That's the fact that happens the one kid makes me want to protect my child and make sure that they don't do that. Okay. The you're the parent. You're you're raising your kidding that that way I understand. But again, what the what the free range kids people are saying is like like is it really worth that? Like what what about that is is? I mean is really worth that kind of a response, and we'll get to we'll get to that. Because you could say like if there were no negative aspects of of completely in -sconsin your kid in protection than the free range. Kids advocates wouldn't have anything. They could be like. Okay. Well, whatever that's what you're doing with your kid. But there's suspicions that they that actually is detrimental to the development of a kid protecting them from everything at all costs. And I. Think that's one of the big other foundational platform post tenants of the free range kids thing. That one was for showing off. All right. So building on that like like you were saying there there has to be like in order to get appearance on board with a free range parenting lifestyle. It's not just a wanna be lazy. Or I want to go back to my childhood. It's apparent who thinks there are actual benefits to doing. So outweighs the risk like you were saying of the three percent chance or the one percent of the point five percent chance that something's going to happen to my kid if they're on their own there is evidence, and it's growing and growing evidence that all these efforts to schedule all these activities for your kid are overlooking one big fundamental element of raising a healthy well adjusted child that seems to be getting lost more and more which is something called free play. The American Academy. Pediatrics has a report out the said that free play. Emotes social sorry. So she'll like it the new the new ways saying. Social emotional cognitive language in self regulation skills that build executive function and a pro social brain and play his fundamentally important for learning twenty-first-century skills like problem solving collaboration creativity and executive functioning skills that are critical for adult success. Right. And they through that last one into be like, well, okay. Maybe plays. Good. But it's not gonna help them in life. And they're saying, yes, it will actually help them in life, and that by keeping them from playing you're basically creating a little adult from from the nursery, which is interesting to be Chuck because prior to the nineteenth century when you were a kid starting around age five or something you you had a job if it wasn't around like your family's farm. Maybe you're helping out with the wash your mom took in who knows? But then you like there was no such thing as childhood, really. And then we moved away from that. And we developed childhood. And now, it seems like. Moving away from childhood now, we're taking kids and they're not they're not working on the farm. We're making them little CEO's and marketing directors brand managers and stuff like that. But they're they're losing their childhood in that bargain is I think what what they're saying and from place specifically play helps, but it helps also like just in and of itself for its own sake. But it also helps eventually down the road. It's an investment that will pay off. I think in terms that helicopter. Parents can understand. Yeah. Th there's another guy named Peter gray. He's a developmental psychologist. He has a book called free to learn and founded a nonprofit believe with. Yes. In easy called let grow little play on words there. Yes. And he basically says that you know, if you look back through human evolution children. Their education was through play with their peers. And if you look at societies and cultures in the world today that I mean, how would you classify these cultures traditional societies? I'm not sure maybe, but they say that that children of these cultures that still play and explore freely. If they're left to do that they will do so into their teen years like that is their natural instinct is to be among their peers free playing right. And so I think one of the problems that helicopter parents have with the idea of play is that like it's it's a waste of time. The kid could be learning like cello or doing math flash cards or like creating a better foundation for a better future for themselves. And that if they're not doing that they're falling behind, and so what Peter gray and some of his Ilker saying is like, no, no no play helps develop. Child in ways that no other thing you could possibly come up with their supervisor get them to do can because this is what we've done all this time. And this is how we built society is letting little kids playing figure things out on their own. And he says that if there's a parent around if it's supervised if there's apparent even within like eyesight or earshot or you know, there's a apparent watching. It's going to be different. It has to be unsupervised unstructured play. So that the kids can be left to make their own rules can can be taught by the group that, you know, actually, no that's not really fair or it's not really cool to take the ball and go home because you are winning. That's how you learn that stuff, and those are good things to learn that makes you a more socially well adjusted kid, then probably learning cello is going to. Well. Yeah. I mean, you can try and teach your kid by showing and by telling as much as you can as a parent, and that has all valuable. But nothing will teach a lesson to a kid like learning it through experience with their peers. Right. And I remember myself, you know, when I was a kid like, the the biggest lessons, I learned were were lessons that I learned among my peer group, you know, like tough hard lessons that a lot of parents. I think trying even shield their kid from 'cause it's tough stuff sometimes. But and you know, you don't want your kid to suffer traumas and things like that. But and not to sound like a parent from the nineteen fifties. But that stuff does help build your child's character. And I mean, I guess that sounds sort of old school. What it does is? It helps them. Learn how to regulate their emotions and out of fit in with their peer group, which is in turn going to be eventually just society at large. Right. It's funny. You say that that sounds kind of fifties. Because this whole idea of like free range kids is kind of based on the philosophy of doctor Spock who is like one of the first experts one of the first child experts that America ever really paid attention to and he wrote a book in nineteen forty six called the common sense book of baby and child any basically saying all the stuff that free range kids parents say is like let your kid play. Let your kid like learned through their own their own way of like exploring the world like let them take risks. Let them be themselves trust your instincts as a parent. And so this free range parents seem to be kind of getting back to is like the doctor Spock school of thought Benjamin Spock, not the other. Spock not live long and prosper Spock. Did he have a first name? Oh, I don't know, man. I didn't watch Star Trek. I didn't either this late on us million. People are going to send Email we're waiting. There's something called the internal external locus of control scale to it's an odd name. But this is been around since the nineteen sixties, it's psychological indicator scale in these days since the nineteen sixties there's been a big shift in the scale and how teens report themselves and their internal control in today. Teens report very little internal control over their own lives and gray believes in. I think he's really onto something here that these high levels of anxiety and depression among kids, these days has a lot to do with that new things is directly related to the decline in free play over the last forty or fifty years, right, which I want to say like this. This is. One psychologist opinion. It makes a lot of sense to me. And I'm sure it does to a lot of people. But there's you know, this is not necessarily like like gospel truth or set in stone. It's the jury is still kind of out, but there's a lot of evidence out there that does seem like over protecting your kid can stunt them in emotionally or developmentally. And then letting them go be themselves in in learn things on their own learn that they can pick themselves back up and still survive in failures not the worst thing in the world can actually help them develop. The this is it's just like we routinely shoot holes in in social psychology stuff all the time. And we do it gleefully. So I don't want to go the opposite way. And just be like, but this one's right because we agree with that's not necessarily the case. And I'm sure a lot of people disagree with it. But I tend to kind of favor that that mentality. Probably because that's how it was race. Yeah. And like I said it does sound like I am from the nineteen fifties to say that failure breeds character. But you know, it really does sort of simplistic way to say it, but when you fail you, hopefully, learn something and build on that. And that does build character. Right. So literally one of the things they call that is the dignity of risk where you are showing your kid. I'm I'm letting you go figure this out on your own. And and another big misunderstanding with free range. Parents is that they use just go from zero to walking, you know, taking the subway in New York at the flip of a switch. That's not how it works. You you slowly build your kid up for this. You know, the big thing that you write an article about, but there's you know, dozens or scores or possibly hundreds of little little interactions that you're having to kind of make sure that your kid is up for this. When they're finally when you decide they're fine. Ready to and it's not just like flipping switches, very kind of thoughtful in protracted and plan but not necessarily shared with the kid. That's planned paying out of trust. So that the kid can show. Yeah, I'm ready for this. I know what to do. I'm not just going to like ball up on on the ground in the subway, and and start crying until someone calls nine one one and the cops come get me. Well, yeah. And I'm sure when she sent her kid on on the subway home that very first time. It wasn't just like all right? Here's the stuff. See you later. I'm sure there was a very serious talk. Like, all right, dude. I trust you. I'm letting you do this. I know you know, the way we're going to give this a shot. If I see you on the news in the middle of Times Square. Like, you're going to be big trouble. Right. I'm sure there was a lot of thought in talk that went into that. And you know, what I'm saying? Yes. Oh, totally and kids. Get that stuff. You know? Yep. For sure hits smarter than people give him credit for. A lot of times. I think it's interesting when it comes to the law because it's such a new thing in Utah last year in two thousand eighteen became the first state to pass what was called a free range parenting law where basically was just sort of redefining what child neglect was in Utah. I thought it was going to go the other way when I was reading this. But it actually went the way of sort of encouraging or being behind free range parenting. The new definition apparent cannot be accused of neglect. Just because their kid is going to a store by themselves. That's down the street or playing outside alone or biking to school on their own or at home without apparent there. If there are minor which is pretty interesting. Yeah. I thought so too. But most free range parents are like how we don't wanna live in Utah. So hopefully, our states will all come up with similar laws that decriminalized free range parenting because in a lot. Of states things like latchkey kids are illegal like you can have your kid taken from you. If they are latchkey kid under a certain age. I think in Washington you have to be fourteen to be left at home alone. Like, you you could lose your kid. So there's a real problem with trying for your parenting because part of this helicopter, parenting society is also helicopter village ING, but rather than picking up the phone and calling the parents whose kids you see wandering alone down the street like you use it would have done now. People just call pick up the phone and call the cops and the cops respond, and they take the kid to child protective services, and the parent has to go down and explain that they will never do this again in the very very sorry or else child protective services will take their kid from them because most states rule on what's called the best interests of the child, which is totally subjective is completely not based in any actual case law necessarily. It's just does the child protective services person think that that the the kid is smart enough to walk from the playground to the house. No, okay. Well, we're taking your kid maybe permanently. And so it's it's really risky to raise your kid this way because people will call the cops if they see your kid walking down the street and real trouble. Your your parent ship of your kid is in jeopardy at that moment, which has got to be one of the worst things that could possibly happen to parent. Yeah. And this is where kind of we get back to the place of like, this is a privilege has a lot to do with this. Because when it comes to the law and children and child protective services, you are way more likely to get a visit from child protective services, if you are poor or if you're a person of color or minority like they may write an article about you in the local magazine. Praising you if you're like a white suburban parents of middle or upper middle class right for letting your kid free range around. But in the case of like, Deborah Herrell in two thousand fourteen in South Carolina. She wasn't like, oh, I want to be a free range parent. She's like, I am a working mom, and I worked at McDonalds, and I'm finishing a shift in my nine year old daughter is playing in a park nearby until I'm done, and they sent her to jail for a night and took her daughter for two weeks away from her. Yes. Seventeen days. Yeah. So it is very much a case of privilege to even be allowed to do this without getting a visit from child protective services, right? So skinny and and some of the other free range parents say, right? This is why we need laws that are much more common sense and decriminalizes kind of behavior and put the trust back, and parents to know that their kids are smart enough. Or if they think their kids aren't smart enough to be trusted with that kind of stuff? They. They wouldn't let them do that. They argue that this would benefit everybody. Whether no matter, you know, whether you're minority or whatever socioeconomic status you have which is which is true. That's a pretty it's a pretty sensible it sensible. But I think that that kind of underscores the larger problem, which is, you know, like, some people don't have the choice to to get child care if the school suddenly cancels class like you just can't afford it. What are you gonna do? And then your your work says, well, you can't bring them here. This is work. You know, what what can you do? Hopefully, you raise your kid to a point where you can trust them to go play, you know, next door at the playground or something like that. But that doesn't mean that you're not going to end up in trouble with with the authorities. So it's a sticky sticky situation that we're in to it is in you know, again it depends on your kid. It depends on where you live like in my brother's neighborhood if I lived there, I would let my kid. Go out and do what she wanted when she was like seven it's just so safe, right? And kids are everywhere on their own doing stuff very much. Like, it was when we were kids at my house. I live next to a super scary. Busy street like I would never let her out of the front of my house, but even at three and a half, we let her go in the backyard by herself and do stuff all the time. Right. I mean just this past weekend. I she was out in the backyard and with the dogs, and I went out about a half an hour later, and she was walking through the garden with a watering can singing, we will rock you. And I was like all right. Everything's fine. But again, she's in my enclosed back yard wasn't sweating it. I would I would never just open the front door and be like go have fun memorial drive's. Right. There writers are going right? St. miles an hour. But that's the point. It's all context, you know, like, you would have had to worked up to that point. She would have had to have shown you that? She was able to be trusted with that busy street. And maybe she'd be sixteen before you would. But that's that's the point. It's all it's all on its context. You know? Yeah. And you know, again, just do the best. You can it's hard there a thousand ways to do it and everybody thinks their way's the right way. That's right. Also, just before we sign off. I want to say I didn't mean to pick on kids who take cello lessons cello, by the way, my favorite stringed-instrument, which means it was the one that was easiest called the mind. That's why kept bringing up the cello. So all you out there learning cello hats off to you because that's my fav- string instrument. What if if yo yo Ma just been free plan? But I'll bet you did free play biddy to both. And if he didn't Abedi regret. If you I know more about free range kids, we'll just go on the internet and start reading because there's a lot about it. And since I said that oh also there's a pretty good article on house affects you can re to since I said that it's time for listener mail. All right. I'm gonna call this desert flooding. Hey, guys. Listen to the podcast this morning on desert survival and live here in Phoenix. Arizona and have for nineteen years in the flash flood issue is real even a metro Phoenix. They have a stupid motorist law here. And that's capitalized in quotes. She said, and she said after enduring or heavy rains, a lot of washes filled with running water a lot of the washes have been paved barriers will be put up when they flood even if the water is only a few inches deep. But there's always someone who decides that they're SUV or truck is not enough to get through and their rescue is always on the nightly news. Oh, man because they have to pay for it. They actually have to pay for the cost of their rescue. Sometimes he stared doubles don't fare too. Well, actually lives have been lost in less than a foot of moving water in a watch. Yeah. I believe that I've heard six inches. Yeah. And she Theresa hin berry closes by saying this. I do so enjoy your podcast. Nice. Thank you Theresa. We'd do. So enjoy your emails to. Yes. I like the way she put that. Yeah. If you want to be like Theresa and impresses with your verbal or written dexterity. We'd love that kind of stuff. You can go to stuff, you should know dot com, and you can look up on the social links. You can also send us a podcast like Theresa did to stuff podcast. I heart radio dot com. Stuff. You should know is production. I heart radio how stuff works for more podcasts from my heart radio. Visit the iheartradio app apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hi there. It's me Josh Clark. And I'm coming out into the world on a solo tour. I up Minneapolis in Washington DC for the better part of a year. I worked on the ten part podcast series the end of the world with Josh Clark. If you haven't heard it. It's high time you did. It's available everywhere. You get podcast, and I hope it will not your socks off. But even with almost seven full hours of talking about existential risks and how we can save the world. There's still a lot more to go over. So I've created a live show to keep the conversation going whether you've never heard a second of the series, or you've listened to ten times already the live show will still get your brain juices flowing and plunge you into the end of the world. So come see me. I'll be at the Parkway theater Minneapolis on June nineteenth and the miracle theatre in DC on June. Twentieth. Tickets are available at the Parkway theater dot com and the miracle. Theater dot com.

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Unschooling School with Heather MacTaggart

Humans Rising Podcast

1:02:17 hr | 9 months ago

Unschooling School with Heather MacTaggart

"Welcome to humans rising where we have conversations to raise awareness increase well-being and unleash your creativity and today I am talking with Heather McTaggart who has been working tirelessly for the past twenty three years to change the education system and to create a system that works for people and doesn't block our creativity in our ingenuity and so welcome heather. I'm so excited to have you in this conversation today. Thank you. I'm very happy to be here. So Heather McTaggart it's up to something truly remarkable in this kind of historic moment human history with creating unscrambling school, and so I'd really like to learn heather. How did you come to co found on schooling school? What is that all about? How can how can people get involved? So tell me what is unsettling school? So, unsettling school is really a movement, a gathering place online, a set of resources and an a community hub to help put power back where it belongs and that's in the hands of learners and and their families. and to say, okay, we have the public education system. It's full of resources and materials and and caring teachers. Why don't we use it? So that it benefits kids why don't we use in the service of kids? And what this is about as kind of Creating that idea in people's minds and having them say, yeah why don't we do that because we don't like a lot of what's going on right now. So let's say, sorry, we're in charge and we are going to insist that the publicly the public resources be used for the good of children. and. I think that that's remarkable. Because most people just look at the institution of school. And feel somewhat distanced from it. It seems like The institution has done a good job of telling parents that they do not have the know-how or the capacity to educate their kids. So they kind of trustingly just hand them over to this institution and you're trying to wake people up to a different understanding. Absolutely. Not only do we hand over we? We tend to think Oh teacher said this I must do it. Oh, the system thinks this. We have to do this Oh if you don't get high school diploma, your life is ruined. Like. These are dire things that that we've we've somehow mostly bought and swallowed and. Most, of them, you know we stayed on the website. It's nonsense. There's a lot of a lot of what we believed it is just nonsense. So what do you think is the some of the strongest beliefs that are just keeping the system frozen in place you know frozen in a way that really doesn't serve children. Well I mean all of the structures are self-reinforcing. So all of the. Fair bit of them or the sex act the same things that Dominating cultures have used to call colonize different places. So you take children away from their family. First of all, you divide them by age groups so they can't really learn from each other because they're only with seventy seven-year-olds you provide information that says there's a right answer and a wrong answer. So you're not allowed to be yourself and think differently, you have to just follow the the wrote progress that we should all do the same things the same time, and that there is a set of knowledge that if you have it, you will succeed in line. And none of that is true. Now none of that is true. In fact, it seems like by forcing kids just to sit still in process information, they slowly lose their they don't lose it but they lose the connection to their imagination and their creativity in their problem solving So yeah that is interesting when you start looking at schooling as a process of kind of colonizing individuals colonizing the mind. And we're just kind of complicit if we keep sending our kids to that system. Well, and the problem is that not everybody can do cannon school not everybody can home-school not everybody can find a really cool alternative like Sudbury valley or an agile learning center and send their kids there because there's an economic factor and and and also you know a double single parent factor So we we were going to in the long journey. If things I've tried to get the education system to change including here in Canada having meetings with multiple ministers of education multiple directors of education. Now, at one point, I had a handshake from Minister of Education for a province in Canada saying will have a contract in place, we will work with you to change the system. That was fourteen ago. In I've tried everything else we've run projects on on first nations reserves with first nations communities for ten years showing that alternative methods do work. But the problem with with that kind of work that. Most the. Situation in most reserves is not healthy. You know it's not a good situation so you can't just create a little island of of academics that works in a sea of a community that is full dysfunction. So you know the the and the part of the reason for doing that was to say look at. There's been a lot of damage done here and we all need to work together to to create solutions for that and while I. Still believe that is true. I think that we have to change the education system writ large in order to solve some of the larger problems that we've got in the world today and both in Canada and the US and in Australia and. New Zealand you know the situation with indigenous people is a big issue and and it behooves all of us to focus on. But you know maybe we need to get kids educated and different way in a way that hasn't killed their creativity and ingenuity so that they can figure this out because we're doing a pretty bad job of it as the adults. As the Huddleston the room we have not so visit all. Exactly, I don't think most people connect the dots between the problems that we see in the world and society with the way that people have been I don't even want to say educated not educated at schooled. And they just they think, oh, well, you know more school better. Count. Exactly. Exactly. So you know the I I love all the alternatives that have that have sprouted out. But when I tell people that you know Sudbury Valley school has been around for fifty years with phenomenal results and spawned probably four to five hundred other kinds of similar schools around the world and yet most people don't know about it. So how I mean us in our bubble, the bubble that you are in, we know all about this and we have so many friends that know about this but then you talk to. Just. Somebody randomly and they have no idea. They don't have never heard the term self directed education or on schooling. And so if we don't if we don't somehow. Really, seriously moved the needle in public education I I. Think it's it's hundreds of years before we have enough independent schools to actually make a big big change. I agree because I co-founded a Sudbury school in two thousand four and we ran for several years but could not get it to a point of financial sustainability. Because there really is this monopoly of the public school system. It's compulsory. It's required by law which a lot of people think Oh, you know they have freedom while you know it's it's you know you will get in a lot of trouble if you don't educate your kids in an illegal manner. So tell us more about the unscrambling school movement. Because as you said, you know you're not trying to start another private school or learning center. You're really trying to fundamentally change this system and empower communities to change the systems. So how how does that all work? Where you're right empowering is the is the correct word because what we're we're trying to say to kids into parents is this is your system. You pay for it you attended. So, get educated in terms of what does this all mean and You could spend several days on the unsettling school dot com website and learn all about you know schooling and self directed learning and how the brain really works in find the research and all that. So that's really the first step. We want people to understand what's out there and understand that there is an option that is not only viable but much much better. And so once they understand that than what we're saying with unsettling school is. Fill out the paperwork to become a free learner. And a free learner is somebody who's decided to take responsibility for their own education within the education system. So we have quite large section under the Free Learner Tab. And colonie. We've developed something called the Free Learner iep individual education plan. So. We are in a sense co-opting some of the terminology that's commonly used in schools so that educators will understand it. Oh, they've got an IEP. Yeah, I guess. Against we have to I, guess we have to listen to that. But this is an EP that is is determined not by some outside expert, but by child themselves with support of their parents. And it says here are the things that I'm going to participate in school. So for example, I love science class. And I. Love Music But. I have no interest in English literature and I don't like the way gym classes. So I'm not gonNA tend those clauses. And instead when classes doing something. I'm not interested in I will go to the library and and read up on on science material or I will stay in the art room and continue with my art project. And The the Ip also has pretty large section free learn I P for responsibility. So we say on the website with with great risk with great freedom comes great responsibility, and if you were going to take responsibility for your education than that means that you also need to be responsible for yourself in the context of the school community. And just because you don't have to do the math lesson doesn't mean you can pester her the living daylights out of the kid beside you who is doing the math lesson. So. What we've tried to do, and this is A. This is like a living system. Right is is not okay. It's done. Everybody go doing. This is we've got tools and resources to help people, and what we hope happens as people engage in this, declare themselves or their child to freelance go in and have conversations with the school says I'm a free learner. This is what this means. This is what this looks like. Then, they will probably Oh if I'd only had this or if I'd had the answer to this question and that might have helped me. So that's where we have a lot of feedback opportunities on the on the site to get in touch with my phone numbers there anybody can call me anytime I will help walk them walk into the process. So that that is really kind of the core of it is to To realize that we have agency. And that we don't need to listen to a system that has told us this is what you must do. This is the order you must do it him. Brilliant? I mean I've always thought that every person should have an individual learning plan or you know as you say. E because we're all wired differently, we come in with different gifts and different talents and to March kids through a standardized curriculum at the same time in the same pace it, it doesn't make any sense it really doesn't but what so this is an opportunity for K. through twelve students is that right? I mean certainly university student could take the same type but that's not where we're going at this point. It's closer to what university already is right. If you're taking a class and you hate you, you you you to quit and go to another one. May I think this? This statistics are something like one hundred and ten percent of kids changed their major in university. That's because several of them, change it many times. Right. That's okay. And so I can see how this would be pretty smooth for elementary middle school went. But then when you hit high school, every state has their graduation requirements. So as you're putting together an IEP in the state island, you need four years of English in three years of math and three years of science. Are you helping the families, the individual learner figure out how they would meet those requirements in a way that really honored their interests and you know how they how they like to learn. Well, there are several ways to go. So I mean some people may say, okay, how can I do exactly that how can I still meet the requirements but do it in a way that works more for me? What can I negotiate with the school? You know we we all know that in life negotiation and persuasion are incredibly important skills to have and we don't provide enough opportunity for kids to practice those except for you. Know at home and I'm not gonna eat that and this is going to bed but it put in school. It would be where the stakes are higher and where it's not your family to learn how to become good at saying this is my case and this is what I want in persuading others to to go along. So that's one route, the other route in, and there's a pretty significant section about this on the website is. A high school diploma all. and. Are there other ways to demonstrate that you have the attitude skills and knowledge you need for whatever is next in life for you? Other than. Diploma. And Short answer is, yes, we have. We have also outlined the process of what we call a free learner diploma. which is really an exercise in readiness. So we sort of outlined a process where you say to yourself am I ready. And and it's a little along the lines actually modeled on the subway valley kind of thesis Exit Diploma and and that the student would create a thesis that demonstrates that to themselves and to the world that they are ready for whatever's next in their life. And then to assemble a committee that of people that you admire and respect that are going to read that these and and question you on it like like you would do You know when you're gets challenged if you're in doing a PhD or something like that. So it's a if you look at it, it's a pretty darn rigorous process and and that means it drew as the as a young person have to know what is next for me and and I sure that I have what I need to get there, and if you don't then to go do that. So in some cases that might be, yes, you do need a high school diploma. In other cases it may be take some open university courses prove that you're already at the university level and use those courses to transfer into a university or college they want. and. That's just one way I believe that there's is on some of the websites we reference or something eleven different ways to get into higher education without a high school diploma. seriously. Think that that's you know it's that's the big kind of carrot and stick that also keeps the K twelve system frozen is once Harvard said while you need Algebra, one and geometry and Algebra two like all the other universities followed suit and it became high school requirements and people are. So I mean even in middle school they start telling kids you've got to do this or you won't get into college and if you don't get into college while you're going to end up homeless in a ditch flipping Burgers, it's it's it's just so much. So fear based, but it's completely fear based and what I found because I've I've tried as a for over twenty years to unravel this. What I found is everyone blamed everybody else So the high schools, the school system will say. We have to do this because this is what universities or colleges expect. And you know or the ministry, the ministry, and then you go to ministry and then they say, well, this is what the colleges want, and then you go to the colleges and they say, well, this is what the high schools give us. It's not really what we want, but we have to kind of use their terminology try to get what it is that we really want. You know, and then you'll have universities saying, well, this is what employers want her you know what society expects. There, they've stopped singing that tune. Because I think they've realized that you know the CS Caesar, what we're now saying the six cs or what's really important and we're not we're realizing when the World Economic Forum realizes Jesus not not the skills that are coming out of of the regular system then maybe that's another. You know another opportunity to say look at this differently. So what are the six C's So the four that are generally recognized starting to be more recognized our creativity, communication collaboration and critical thinking. And when you extend a little beyond that because that's that's all quite of individual focused. the other two are compassion and community. So, they add up to you know if you could say as as a mother that your children had those. Sees you'd be pretty darn happy. New having followed the self directed education route. I can confidently say that they do. at I do I can see that the school system not only does it not foster these foresees but the system in this structure really prevents a lot of it. I mean communications you're not allowed to speak. You can have numbers stations, you're not allowed to collaborate that's cheating. Right, answer is you know the antithesis of creativity. So. Yeah. That's interesting that but how do people you know stop just talking about these foresees actually change the system to promote them I. Guess that's what unsettling school is all about 'cause 'cause we know that the way to do that is to let kids learn what they're interested in. To provide the beautiful environment where they can educate themselves. You Know Been Peter. Gray. How many times does he need to say this that we are biologically born to educate ourselves? And and driven to succeed in the society into which were born. And all we need is nice access to the tools to do that and supportive caring. Loving people. We have all that in schools. We just need to say you know what we insist that we be able to use it for that purpose. In the service of the Child Not in the service of a system, which is how it seems to be running right now. Well and I. Love that this movement is uniting learners, parents, educators, community leaders towards the service of what do children need to be ready for what's next because when people are honest they don't know what's next. No they absolutely down I? Think they're very recent report saying that I think this was out of Word Economic Forum as well. That something like sixty for kids entering primary school right now sixty two percent of them will be in jobs that don't even exist right now. So, how can we possibly say here's the curriculum. Here's what you need when we really we have no idea. Right, and how can we burden adults to continue pretending that they have the answers? I, mean they have to stay you know step into this role of I know what you're going to need. You know fifteen years in the navy can't possibly but I think what what it comes down to for me and I I would think for you as well. Is that the understanding that children already have everything they need inside of them to become the best versions of themselves If. Meant and as you said, we're not saying we're just GONNA like throw them into the school building. Go. Have you know it's Not Lord of the flies here. Right it's we're still having mentors and support and guidance and resources, but it's being chosen by the children right rather than being forced upon them absolately and I'm so happy mentioned Lord of the flies. You probably had this experience when I read that in school it made me so angry. Because all I can think of this this is absurd if I was on this island, there would have been a little area that was safer for younger children to play with. There would have been a teams organized for WHO's doing fishing today and who's doing the WHO's it would not have looked like that. And I don't I don't move. You saw it but in the Guardian in the UK excuse me. There is a story called the real lord of the flies. And there was a group of kids that set off from one of the islands or near sorted in Tahiti kind of area and they they took a book about when they weren't supposed to end. They got lost and they were marooned on an island much like this. I believe it was eight months. And when they were found. Nobody was dead. Nobody was injured. They had taken care of themselves taking care of each other there was it was a multi age group it had operated like a perfect little community. And it was all boys so. Even while little boys can be. Together and not and not run into this so. That whole idea in fact that you know the author of that was was a very depressed man and so he gave a very depressed version of of humanity and that's that's not what kids are really like kids given their own druthers will will figure it out because as you say, that is that is who we are. Right but but I think that's the belief. Okay. If you let children direct their own learning if you let them follow their interests, they're going to sit around and eat twinkies and play video games and not add any value. Oxygen Myth. It is a complete toxic man. I read. So many things lately, I can't remember where I read this. I. Think it was the gracelands work and she talked about study that was done where. Kids were allowed to eat whatever they want to on each plate was the Broccoli and the the piece of fish and the piece of chocolate cake at the same time. And they found that after they done this for a while, kids went for the Brockley just as often as they went for the piece of Cake I. So they they I call it the allure of the illicit. When we make something illicit like chocolate cake or you have to eat your vegetables I or you can only have so much time on the screen or you can only play video game for so long then we want more and worth that because who it's naughty. when we take that away. Then you know your natural instincts I mean we need to we need to move around. You know sitting all day long and just at a screen is not natural but when there's nothing Forbidden about it. It becomes less sexy. And And kids can move back to who they who they would naturally be, which is hall bounced. I know we like, I see adolescence because I have to and they want to do real work they want to add real value to society. They don't want to be locked up doing make work or being forced to compete in this artificial academic game. And you know adolescence didn't use to exist right? It was invented. Well you know the interesting late because we were talking earlier about book that I wrote many years ago with John. Abbott. From the from the UK and one of the main points in that was that adolescence used to be a time where I mean we do know that brain. Wise. You know it's I believe twelve percent of the connections that had been established in childhood are are breaking apart in looking for new connections and that's there so that the human species progress and be different than the previous generation. You know we don't we all say that we want our kids to be like this but none of us will say, Oh, I, want to be exactly like my mother you know we. We. Matter. How great my mother was. So the purpose of adolescents, actually differentiation from your parents so that we could go on and do new things. You know when we when we all came from the, you know the Fertile Crescent, you know you the tribes there only were in a certain area. It was adolescence that said, you know what I WANNA go further no, no, no, it's dangerous. We don't know what do you know what to batum going? And there's a there's a belief that that's how humanity spread around the globe is with the sort of unrest and the desire to do something different and. Maybe, even dangerous that the kids have. So, one of the stories we're talk about is that there's a code in in British Columbia puget sound. And it was named after one of the captains of the ships that came over from Britain and the first time that this boy Peter Puget came he was twelve years old and he was a cabin boy he was a a servant. By the time he was fourteen, he was the captain of the ship. Wow Fourteen. I mean there's a reason kids can't sleep at night is because they're they're meant to be up like watching the flock to make sure the wolves don't come. Mean these things you know these biological things are in this There's people that research indicates that we're you know we don't change genetically it takes ten thousand years you know for a genetic change. So we are still all hunter gatherers. And our instincts in our even our is our you know men's and women's is different because. Of of the different roles that people had for so so so long. And so to say, we shouldn't. Let Adolescence to real things is absolutely against their nature. That they should be out there. That's why they're so interested in sex drugs and rock and roll because we won't let them do anything else. But. If we had jaw if they had jobs that they could go work like that's another thing to think about down the road is, how do we change these age restrictions? You know kids if they're able should be allowed to work not forced to work course. Age restrictions were put in her kids own good. And that's why we've got a lot of education just rights for your own good but times change. We need to change the structures because end up hurting people's that are helping. So, if we could. Face the you know the natural inclinations of these these young adults sometimes called adolescents these really. Creative. Restless. Young adults if we could. All of their capacities versus what we're doing now, which is just reinforcing the status quo. you know what would that, what would that look like and because you're saying, okay, you don't really need a high school diploma and you know I I agree there's the I. Think it's called the mastery consortium, which is the top tier of private schools in the United. States are ditching the gray based report cards and showing mastery and competence in portfolios. But you know it'll probably take decades before that would trickle into the public school system. But to see those are those are the institutions that are creating the I. Guess Leaders, future leaders and A. See. The futility of this subject based learning in the grading methods So if if if a community said, you know this sounds really great I want to approach my school and see if we can create an environment for free learners I want my kids to be free learners As you said, you go to the website do start having conversations with your friends. I. Mean because the one thing that I read also an article by Peter Gray psychology today recently, that was saying that people because we're social animals we want to be perceived as normal. Even if I see that my kid hate school that their their love of learning has gone out of them they're the spark in there is dimming I'm still going to do what's normal how do we make on schooling school the new normal I guess well, I think we start with the people who don't care. We. Don't care. We don't care about how they look. So we we don't think this is a movement that is going to catch on overnight with everybody. We think there's probably about one percent of people who are right who right this very moment are absolutely ready for this. And their kids who don't care what other people think about them in the same way you know that the peer pressure is like I don't care. You know I'm GonNa wear it. I'M GONNA wear my hair. You know in five ponytails to the top of my head today and I don't care if anybody likes it is that kind of kid that is is going to be brave enough to just say free learner great parents. Let's get on board. Let me do this. And, it's also going to take a certain kind of family world says all right. This is you know we understand the research we booked at this. We know schools not not serving you the way it should, and we're we're behind you. And then we we really strongly encourage this try to find other like minded people because when when you've got groups voices amplified. Now do we think that there's towns or cities here and there or schools here in there with? A single child has brave enough to do this on their own. Yup I would have. I would have done it. No problem in my mother would have been behind me. And I wish I had thought of it. Then 'cause I found school beyond hellacious. So. But really the the the way this is going to happen as a movement is if people joined together, people start having friends over for coffee and talking and saying, Hey, you know we're thinking of doing this with. You know with Georgie what do you think and having conversations in and saying, Yep, let's let's go all in and meet with the principal in a group of five of us. Or Group of three. Right. That's more powerful. Well. On the truth is there's never been a better time for this movement to just you know expand Decades of research that come from psychology and neuro science and biology news. You said that just show that unions are designed to be free learners. that's the natural state It's they're not designed to be these you now computer like information processors. So I mean but do you appeal to people's you know rational thinking with the research or do peel to their emotional understanding of the kids not happy as you said, school for me was very hellacious to I was a good student, but I was just ordered to tears. Yeah. So I was at the other end, I was a bad student and frustrated. you know the The the kindergarten teacher said to my mother. Oh Heather is brilliant. She should really be going straight integrate two by two they hit on heather is an imbecile we to might end up in an institution. Literally. That was said to my mother and I didn't learn to read 'til grade six I. Mean I just had one issue after the other but for some weird reason. I. Knew In my soul it's them. Not me I'm fine. I. Mean I felt bad. I felt I was taunted by other kids and that kind of is I'm not wasn't doing what you're supposed to be doing but inside me I didn't I didn't feel diminishing I don't know if that's because. I was born like that or because I had a loving supportive family in. A day of hunger in my life and you know in many things of being born into privilege situation. So. And other things that I was good at our dance and I was cute. So I you know I got good feedback from those things despite the fact that my. My marks? Beyond. Abysmal and then it all came together and university. I got straight as so that like how does that make sense? I barely got there. And then I get straight days. But I think it's because I was interested in what I was studying. And and I was much more in control of it. So why the heck are we waiting for that long? You know why does somebody have to be eighteen or nineteen or seventeen years old until they can really truly pick their courses in the areas that they're interested in. It's It doesn't make any sense now it doesn't make any sense, and so you're. Saying when you don't really need a high school diploma I, guess that of course follows on that you don't except for maybe a few. Professions need a college degree and I see. Kids all around the United States saying I'm definitely going to defer I'm not GonNa, go to college or university in this crazy situation So if you if you start with what's next, what do you WanNa do and you reverse engineer it seems like the Education Catholic so different doesn't it? Absolutely and I love that term reverse engineering you know and I think that everybody should should think of their life in that way where do I think I wanna go and how do I? How do I you know backwards design a process that might get me there. And I don't know if you'd heard. Peter's great talk at the Arrow conference earlier in the summer. and. His new book is have sections around. You know what are we actually biologically designed to do different sort of phases in our life? And talks about not going directly to university or college, but instead have period where you try on careers. So if you think an Meyer you mean would be, let's do this. When kids are thirteen, fourteen and fifteen, they don't even need to wait till seventeen eighteen. So if you think you WANNA be a doctor. You. Know go go find a hospital or a doctor's office where you can volunteer you know take people's coats, bring them glasses of water do something so that you can be in that environment and see if you like it or not. because. That's a whole lot of education to find out I. don't like hanging around sick people. That is yeah. That is exactly right and I think everyone did take that approach and it doesn't mean that what you think you WanNa do when you're fourteen seventeen eighteen is going to be your your life because. I think that's the other myth like lives careers, their linear I loved I read a book by Catherine Bateson and she was talking about your life is like a quilt and you're working on one patch at a time but you don't know where how it all fits. But at least if you yourself in the direction of your dreams and and your courageous and you don't feel limited by other people's negative opinions of you know something. Going to happen I believe. Absolutely. I love. That's a wonderful analogy. Life is a quilt teach at a time. I mean, if somebody had told me when I was in high school that I was going to end up in education, I would have said you're out of your mind. Got Is not going to happen. So you know the thing is not to try to figure out what the end goal is but really what's next and what what do I think might be next so I think might like to be in the medical profession. So let's try that on. Okay. Now I don't like that. You know but while I was at a doctor's office, somebody came in and was building a new wall. That looks cool. I think I might like to Gartner well, let me go see what that is like and to have that experimentation period during the teen years. with real work and real things. So you can. Figure that out and then you might say, oh. Wow. I need to take biology and chemistry in functions and you know things how can I do that? Is that, of course being offered at my school? Do I need to go online? Do. I. Need to hire a tutor need to work a part time job so I can hire a tutor like how? How am I going to do that that exercise of problem solving? For how you're GonNa get what you want. Is, exactly the kind of skill we need children to have as they enter battle. You know that is exactly right and then if you are doing biology or chemistry because it's part of your path, it's going to be meaningful. You're going to remember it. You're GonNa not just forget it after the test. And you know it reminds me of what's taken. You know you know go in the corporate world everybody's talking about design thinking. I that's just an it's all about fail fast and iterative end. So why aren't we doing that with our own lives because our lives are so much more important than any product or company? Yeah Yeah, exactly it The whole idea of failure. You know that that is perpetuated as a bad thing pillars a great thing just just as you say, do it faster? Dry. doesn't work do something else. Let's do something else. You Know Ed being able to drop out or opt out or decide. You're not going to stick with something in school is a good thing. We have this false notion that Oh, well, they don't if they are made to take certain courses how there and learn to stick something out. Well, you learn to stick something out when you're passionate about it. You know I am not a techie person at all. It is not a natural thing for me. The little animated video on animals are not a writer. The. Little animated video on the beginning of the schooling school dot com website, I made it. I'm a little self I learned how to use the program I. Did it. It was frustrating and many bad words were spoken aloud in my in my kitchen but I did it. Because I needed to there was nobody else to do it? So I did and I figured it out. and. That's what that's. What creates stick stick with it is you have a personal need to do something. Right. Right and that's true self agency. This needs to get done on going to do it, and so I loved on schooling. So website you're inviting people to be responsible subversives. Particularly Educator so The Responsible Service Responsible. Subversive is actually a term from my book with John Abbott which is. A quote is from European situation where. People were trying to get out of the Soviet bloc and they would act like good civil servants every day, but then at night dropped leaflets. Out of out of window so they would be caught by the wind and distributed to everybody to say, we need to change this regime. So we Kinda keep the lights on, but you work for change. And and we know while, for example, the the group, this sort of the core group of six people that have been that are north, American wide and and dairy a hand from England. between those six people we have two hundred and twenty nine years of experience in the education, system? At, every level. In in forty five towns and eleven countries. So, there is there is depth of experience there in terms of what people have seen and no, and and this group has said you know what? This is the way we think the change can happen is we empower we empower students we empower parents and we let teachers know look this is a great thing you can come along with this. Because there wouldn't be so many in our core group is on the only one that didn't go to teacher's College. So it's all people who have been in the system and know that needs to change, and we know there are lots and lots of them out there. And so you know one of the one of the reasons you often hear teachers say well, I can't change because parents are. You know they're they want more they want higher standards. They WanNa see those marks on the report card they want their kid to. Go to Columbia. They want these things and so we have to keep toeing the party line. Well, be very, very different conversation if that's not what parents were pushing for. You the educators they get, it would be able to say, Oh, this is great. What can we? How do we support you? How do we help make this happen? How do we spread? So the opportunity for learners is to become free learners the opportunity for educators to become a responsible subversive and so. On the website on your website is there a path for educators to follow as well? Then? Yes yes there is in its under the it's on the far right tap and it says educators, and then it goes into responsible subversives and and and line educators It is also a section that that we we would like to do more on it. It gives them links and other support and resources and other books that are in along these lines. including a new one that has recently out called transforming. Education by Wayne Wayne last name suddenly out of my mind hold on I will I will get it again in a minute will say say, but transforming transforming education is is the book and it's very good in it is really you know for educators. Wayne Jenex. Yet because what I've seen in public education is you'll get kind of an enlightened principle that will join a school and have a big vision of transforming the school and will do it for a few years and then the principal moves on and other person comes in and all of the changes than. Undone. So I think that's the challenge is if the system is so rigid. And everything that's done serves that rigid system but which are really calling for is okay. This system was designed to serve people you know. Our people. And the people need to say, Hey, it's not serving our needs exactly just stand up and say, no, we don't accept this and I mean I think there are. There are probably very few exceptions where reasonable people come together politely but firmly and say, this is what we're doing, and this is what our child's doing not doing. This is what art our group of children are doing or not doing. You're not gonNA have police come in and arrest five families. Because they've not been, they've decided to opt out of the standardized test. there. Is Fear of that kind of thing. But I think the ditch I mean certainly, candidate would never happen ever. And I, even I think even in places So unlikely especially, if you have a group, you know that saying this is what we believe in In fact, it would be super media attention. University positive way. To have to have that happen because. That's The the system. Is You. Know there's no such thing as systems there's only people. and. Collectively, they have bought into a certain way of thinking. and. In almost every while I think in every every school in every school board and ministry across certainly North America there is somewhere a statement that says, children are the center of all we do. I've never seen a place that actually operates that way. In the in the regular system. So what this is saying, okay, Great. Find find a line in your child's school statement find a line in the Ministry of the board that is aligned with what we're talking about and go and say, Hey. We've decided to operate according to this. because. Ultimately, I, mean people go into education because they love kids and they care about them. And then they get caught up in the rules and the regulations and the structures. And I think it's very freeing. This is a very free concept for educators as well. For many of them. And and then if they have the support in the encouragement and the the nurturing of of kids and families. Then, they'll be able to. You know exercise. Very. Interesting freedoms themselves. When it seems to me that it comes down to a conversation about values. What do you value? And when I was trying to start the charter schools in California, I would go to multiple school board meetings, and the only thing they ever talked about was test results in money. And I don't think that most parents value that. I think that they would prefer the well being of their children and when I look at the skyrocketing. Rates of anxiety stress depression suicide in high school, and college. I think we'll. We're definitely doing something wrong here. And and we know it's getting worse. I. Mean it's it's what is it eighty percent up from from the fifties? I mean. It's a huge huge problem. And Peter Graves research indicates that it is absolutely correlates to a lack of of free play time for kids and only increased schooling but increased school is ation of everything. So you can't just have a kid group of kids together a in a street in a block off the street and they start playing soccer or baseball or go to their local park and do this because everything's organized. Everything's. You. Now, what are you doing next and there's no freedom and and you know the the belief that child is going to be abducted at every turn is. Absolutely incorrect belief. We know that statistically the chances are unbelievably minute. But we've we've reorganized our whole society around us. So what do know though is that that schools are safe places. and. So if we just change how we look at them. And how we take advantage of the Services and the resources in the environments that they provide than they could be places of free play. And exploration and gathering together with kids in multiple age groups and. Saying to an adult in the room or in the in the building hey, we all Wanna learn about Who who's, who's an expert on amphibians that can come talk to us about this? These kinds of things would obviously they would. They would come up naturally as you've seen with your with. Home School Your Kids I love the story about your. Own Daughter, being so interested in stem. Royce, what about stem will you know lots of people are interested in stab you can't make somebody who doesn't care boats damn interested in it simply by forcing them to do it. Now, I mean, it was incredible because I just get all these bashers science books and she was maybe five years old and I walked by the bathroom she standing in the bathroom looking in the mirror and she had just cut her arm her hand and she looks in the and he goes B. Cells T. cells get to work. He'll this cut. Old. She was like four five. Stephen. And I would if I sat down and said, we're GONNA study biology and how the human body works today she been like why thank you? Well I I I totally understand that my son was as a little boy, very interested in bugs and in nature and leaves digging in the dirt in all these things and I thought ha after too artsy fartsy. I'm finally going to get a scientist and No. He is soon as they started learning about it in school. I'd say, Oh, you're taking signs. It must be pretty cool. He said no I. Don't like it anymore. It just killed this sort of the repetition in the memorizing in the the structure of it just killed his interest, but it's date killed. It's not it's not ever come back. You know he's twenty six. So, it can can really do damage and I thought that there was. There was a natural. Inclination to that. But you on fifteen years of schooling, and that can get rid of anything. It really can can squash any passion. Ever had I love carole black talking about how she had to keep all of her interests and passions out of school so they didn't kill it. And what to what you're advocating for on schooling school is not just that they're using the resources in the facilities at the schools like. Ours, but they could actually Kinda I duNNO CARVE OUT A. Mini school within the school or I'm trying to envision how this might work in a community. That's do this. Well. So the school within a school concept is exactly where we think this could go in fairly short order. You know if you had ten twenty kids in one school that were all declared free learners and you know we're we're picking and choosing what they were doing or not doing pretty quickly the school would say I. Don't we got fewer kids in class or we've we've had to rearrange how the sort of the the movement of kids. There's X. Room over here. Why don't we make that the Free Learner Room? And you know we can books and computers in resources and things in it, and then it's who are free learners and they're in a class that they don't Wanna participate and they can just go to the free learner room. You and then that kind of thing would spread and spread and spread until we have a point where half the school is operating on a regular basis. and. The other half is operating is free learners and but the great thing is that the free learners will opt into the classes being taught in the regular system based on their interest. Along be pretty quickly, the system finds out known seems to be opting into this class. I wonder what that means. Maybe no one cares or maybe this teacher is doing a horrible job and everybody's over here. You know in Mrs Fields? Class. This must be really right. Now I mean that is so exciting to me I mean just thinking about those three things if you had every kid in the school to a free learner plan if they were able to opt in just to the classes that were interesting to them around their path and if there was a free learner room, just those three things would I think create so much transformation and so much good for the and also for the teachers who would be like I'm not enjoying teaching this class at nobody's interested in. Let me do something I'm interested in teaching. They have passions as well. We'll have absolutely and you know the anxiety and depression rate around. Kids is not dissimilar to teachers. I mean, it's a very stressed group. You know there's there's there's research on on not the increase in that in exile and depression amongst teachers because it's tough you're constantly making people do what they don't want to do. As. Being the poor the poor woman that hands out the parking tickets. Everybody's mad at you all the time. Yeah. No a woman reached out to me is living in California just went back. Teaching three days of kindergarten a week and she said I need to talk to you caprice because the level of control that I have to exert is just killing my soul you. Want to be doing this so. Don't with a wonderful description everything I needed to know I learned in kindergarten. We can't say that anymore because we've school is kindergarten. Move wrecked it. It's A. Horrible that was the final Straw for me. I mean, there's there has been a movement instantly on -Tario and other parts of candidates kind of undo some of that you know in. Free. Plane Things. There's still a lot of structure and they're still an unseen report card. For a child in kindergarten. Thank you. Spend X. amount of time can build a block stack three blocks high you know. Good Grief Child had a good day today they get along well with other friends. They're fun and inquisitive done in your report card. Right to if yes, I mean back to values if we wanted an education system that preserved children's wholeness, their wellbeing their curiosity, their creativity, their imagination like all of these things that makes humans. Amazing. I. It would look completely different. So it's really what do you value? What do you want for your children? At. Talks mainly to homeschooling groups but the main thing they say is they just want their kids to be happy. And we have we have not put any value really on that at all as as as a system you know think. At all. I mean my my middle daughter. Who really is a big part of my? My empathy, you know my sort of motivation for all of this because. She had some of the same issues that I did in terms of not doing the regular things at the regular time. And remember her in tears and Mindy Sang. Honey. This is not you. It's them. It's the system. You're fine. You're great exactly as you are. You know but system, and that's what Mommy's working to do and I heard crying Tang. Can you hurry up? in an and that change did not happen and she struggled and got went down many bad roads because of an and then sort of woke up one day in eighteen year old and said, I'm going to you know I'm going to get my life together and. She's Malia at the top restaurant in Canada. And that takes a lot of studying. A lot of study to know you know where does this great grow in wet grade Bizet and what's the tear Laar and all of that in chemistry of of the soil and all these things that she had absolutely no interest in when somebody was trying to teach them to her. When she decided, she was in control and realized she was in control she was. She was rabid about it. You can barely have a conversation with her because she was so busy studying. And I thought why? Why did we have to go through all the hell that we did for her at in Herat lessons? With with other people telling you what to do an assistant said you're stupid. Skipped over that. Part. And Anger on grey to straight to a you know a life she was empowering herself to do things. Yes I mean I talked to Kirsten of Olson in wounded by school where she said out to Salo how did all these wildly successful people like what did their school experience do to prepare them and she found the opposite that they just survived school and they were all wounded in different ways. So I think it's it's really time to have this conversation about the damage that schooling is doing. And that we have the capacity to create a system that works. and. Know who cares at the textbook manufactures GonNa make as much money or the testing system in a company's market 'cause I point out in my book at one point three, five, trillion dollar industry here folks that were trying to disrupt But it's time I don't I agree we can't wait another generation for the. No and I will not I will not allow my as of yet unplanned unconsumed an unborn future grandchildren participate in the system visit is. I am rabbit a vote about helping to create opportunities for doing otherwise, and you know as as much as there are many really bad things about coded and people who are are suffering because of it. There are also opportunities because it is a disruption. So wire why not seize this opportunity so okay, we can't send our kids back to school as usual. Good. Good. How else can we do it? And and what and what can we learn from the unscrewing movement about how do you have kids come together at certain times but maybe not all the time how do you distribute them? More widely widely over the over the school building. You know if we if we just said this year know what? Twenty, twenty, twenty, one we're just GONNA take a year off of curriculum. We're just GonNa let that one thing go maybe except for kids in their grade twelve year is that might be a bridge too far right now but we're just going for the rest of the systems were just going to say we're not GonNa have curriculum or let kids. Gather around themes and ideas and areas that are of interest to them. And the teachers that are around are going to support them either online or in. You imagined that just changed that that would have the depressure that it would take off the system I'm actual sorry for the administrators and the teachers that are trying to do the normal thing in a situation that is so far from normal. Because, they're still trying to say, okay. But what about math twenty and what about this class and what about these outcomes? Just. Let it go. Let it go just for this year. Let's see what happens. Yes if you could just let it go for one year, trust that humans are designed to learn and the natural learning process is beautiful in Tis not need to be controlled Ben. Amazing things could really happen. It's in some ways you think okay maybe that's it. Maybe there there's some there always are silver linings to clouds. No matter how dark clouds are there there's always an upside down. And and can we look at that? At. That situation that we're in now and say, all right, how do we? How do we really? Step back. and think about what's important here and I've seen sort of good evidence of of ministries in boards coming out with statements of saying things like let's focus on on health and well being of kids right now. Let's. Really put that is as what we'RE OUR OUR MAIN PRIORITIES So. Great. An what we're. Hoping to do with the idea of of people being designated free learners is to. Expand on that. You know this is my and even if parents said, you know what? Let's try this for year. Let's start right now for year because we're going to school as usual is tough. So we're going to be free learners and education. This is what we're going to participate in non. And I bet we'd find a lot of teachers coming on board and saying well, okay, Great. These these fifteen kids are taken care of in this way I'll support them much easier to support them in conversation groups online. and. And some things in person than it is to try to run thirty thirty five kids through the same thing. Every day. That's true and I know that these kids are just really really starving to have. Conversation in connection said that would be even if just started with fifteen kids I I agree and Well, thank you so much heather I'm appoint people to the UNSCREWING school dot Com website where you and your team with two hundred, twenty, nine years of experiencing education have put together really a phenomenal resources and and as Heather said, she is available of this conversation has sparked your curiosity to reach out to heather or someone on her team directly, and they will guide you through the process of bringing unsettling school into your your local school, your community. Absolutely. R K will thank you so much heather and if you've enjoyed listening to this podcast, please subscribe to let me know and people find me on Itunes if you leave a review and they can learn about it and I think as you've seen what we're talking about today is is very important and we wanna really really you know help people like heather expand their impact. So thank you for listening. Thank you.

Heather McTaggart Canada Peter Gray United States UK California John Abbott Sudbury Valley school principal unscrambling school movement New Zealand Sudbury school Minister of Education Sudbury valley Huddleston Harvard Gartner Guardian
What Are Colleges Doing to Control COVID-19 On and Off Campus? 2020-09-01

The Takeaway

45:15 min | 9 months ago

What Are Colleges Doing to Control COVID-19 On and Off Campus? 2020-09-01

"Support for the takeaway comes from hint fruit infused water with no calories or sweeteners. Hint has over twenty five flavors including watermelon water in stores or delivered from drinking dot com hint water with a touch of true fruit flavor. Higher Learning. But with higher risks, the return to college campuses across the United States students and their families in many cases really wanted to go back to campus and I've talked to many kids at schools that are exclusively online who were grievously disappointed. I'm Tansy Vega in today on the takeaway for Tuesday September. First, we'll talk about why the pressure to reopen colleges. So present plus the director. Of National Intelligence will no longer give in person election briefings to Congress, and he says leaks are to blame leaks can't be the only explanation because there were leaks early on in the summer but they continue to schedule in person briefings with our members of Congress. Even after those leaks had occurred also will talk about being unschooled and what it means in the long term. So let's get started. It's September first and in any normal year that would mean college students around the country would be settling into their fall semester. But as we know, twenty twenty is not a normal year many reopen colleges across the United States are struggling to prevent the spread of Covid. Nineteen thousands of cases have already been detected on campuses last week, major universities like the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and the Michigan State University reverted back to remote. Learning while the University of Notre Dame suspended in-person learning for two weeks we've been hearing from students and professors on how their schools are working to limit the spread of Cohen Nineteen at eight seven, seven, eight might take hi this is Gillian Roth while I'm calling from St Louis Missouri I attend community college part time since I work fulltime the campuses requiring math and they've implemented a health survey mobile APP for when you have to go to campus. As far as my campus experience, I'm not nervous about in person classes because I know my class size thirty small I think we have ten in our class and knows a rumor meeting in it is large enough to accommodate appropriate distance. This is Eric in Tampa I am an adjunct at a major university and we have already started on campus. We are exercising social distancing and the wearing of masks we have protective shields around campus and of course, sanitizer dispensers everywhere. However, I don't think that will be on campus for long just because of the nature of. The students and that you know unrealistic sense of entitlement. A look at whether it's actually possible for colleges to prevent the spread of Corona virus cases among their student bodies. I'm Vega and that's where we start today on the takeaway. Join me now is Mona Heart Collis national correspondent for the New York Times Covering Higher Education Mona. Thanks for being with us. Sure. Thanks for having me ten Zena. Also with us is Angela Clendenin Assistant Professor in epidemiology and biostatistics at Texas Am University School of Public Health. Angela. Thank you for joining us. Thank you very much. So antimony. What are some of the most common guidelines with the understanding that each school is different in different states are doing different things. But what are some of the commonalities that in terms of what colleges are issuing students to prevent the spread of covid nineteen? It depends to some degree on the size of the college and the wealth of the college and what they can afford to do but. I, it's pretty universal that colleges are requiring masks. There were some exceptions to that on and the public outcry was pretty loud. So from faculty and from community members so I think that has changed. Some are doing testing. Of everybody universal testing and testing more than once or at regular intervals. Others are doing what they're calling surveillance testing, which is more random testing of the population or they're testing only when somebody reports symptoms. So there's a there's a range there but masks and some degree of testing are pretty standard quarantining. Also kids are coming from all over the country too many of these colleges. So making them stay by themselves for two weeks as also sometimes part of the entry ritual. Angela despite everything that Eta Mona just laid out though we're still seeing. Cases of Covid nineteen on college campuses. So the disconnect here. Ceo I think largely, the issue is college campuses have the ability to control the their environment that's on campus. So they can make certain requirements of students who live on campus they can control and disinfect the classrooms and the spaces in between buildings. But most of the transmission is happening when those students leave class and they're going off campus, they're going and hanging out at large gatherings and their homes, their apartments wherever, and they're not following the guidelines that they follow in their on campus, and so it's that individual behavior aspect that one of your callers mentioned that is really leading to a lot of the continued transmission on college campuses. Animal why did you know I think there's a lot of questions about just the public schools and younger students in terms of opening and not opening and allowing. Parents to have a break from younger kids. But these are college students. Why did colleges? Even. Attempt to you know reopen for in person learning given the you know high rates of of susceptibility to covid nineteen if the guidelines aren't followed. I think they did it for a number of reasons one was Financial but I'm not even sure that was a a major reason because summer saying they're they're losing money by opening because of the extra expenditure of attempting to say stay safe. But you don't want your students to say, okay. If I can't go to campus, I'm not going to enroll which could happen and has happened to some degree. The other is consumer demand students and their families in many cases really wanted to go back to campus and I talked to many Harrison kids at schools that are exclusively online who were grievously disappointed that this was the case. So I I think they're also trying to meet that kind of consumer. Demand and most of them are doing it in the minimum away. They're not inviting everybody back there inviting maybe forty percent or thirty five percent in some cases, sixty percent to live on campus or to take in person classes. But at the same time, many students are returning on their own and congregating in the nearby community even if they're not taking classes in person or living in a dorm, so kids to want that. Angela are you hearing anything from the faculty at Texas Am or other schools about you know how they feel the administration is handling the situation because the faculty are also at risk and and so are the workers in a lot of these schools So for the most part, you know taxonomy university has put a lot of safety measures in place specifically for faculty they also allow some faculty. If they are in a high risk category they can fill out an accommodation form and be able to teach completely online a number, the classes that are very large like large undergraduate classes that can't be accommodated in any of the buildings went all online. So I think you know it's a conversation that you hear quite frankly there are people who are very concerned about coming to campus and teaching face to face even with safety precautions whether that's because they're in a high risk group or they may be around people who are high risk. But for by foreign large everybody seems to be following the guidelines that they've been given and we haven't heard a lot of rumblings and we're about two weeks into school now. And Mona. Do we think do you think we'll be seeing more schools cancel or suspend in person learning as the semester starting to get started over here? Well, that's sort of the million dollar question. All these schools are trying to get through the semester until Thanksgiving and then send their kids home for the rest of the semester until the spring begins and there is a concern that there may be another wave or that flu season will bring more of the coronavirus as well. So it's not clear but Notre Dame and UNC and some of these other schools have now conducted kind of dress rehearsal and it has been bumpy. They found that that students arrived on campus already infected a symptomatic didn't know they had it and a small number of infective student. Infected students can quickly radiate out through their concentric circles of friends and acquaintances and strangers into a larger outbreak. So Notre Dame kind of quickly nip that in the bud by saying. Okay we're going online only no more in person classes for two weeks, which is the standard quarantine period. Until we get this under control, their infection rate is not zero it's declined started going down. So they think that they have made progress there are gonNA come back. So it's kind of a learning experience, but these schools also I think have been a little bit surprised by how tough they have to be in some. Cases everybody all the students are signing honor codes saying or or if they're not signing them, they're required to abide by them saying we're going to follow these corona virus rules but not through any any kind of malicious intent you know students are young and exuberant, and they forget and they party and even a small Pizza Party with your friends could turn into a a vector of infections. So so it's been hard. An animal is Our coronavirus test available on college campuses. I mean that's also been an issue because the time it takes to turn around test results was lagging quite a bit and so almost you know people were wondering is it even worth getting test but that that aside I, mean, can students get tested at their college health? Services Office for example I I think for the most part. They can I I would give the colleges credit for being very well organized on that you. Know University of Kentucky hired a private contractor to do the testing because they they couldn't get enough testing from government sources and state and local end. You know who knows where else but they've done the last I looked something like twenty, two, thousand tests. It's an enormous number. There are places that expressed. Doubts about their ability to test everybody like University of Florida. They just didn't have the capacity to do it. So that led to some outrage in in Gainesville in the local community with you know Acidic Commissioner saying that they were they were being naive but yeah, colleges worked very systematically and very hard over the summer to make sure that they were prepared for this and most of them have like a practically military grade plan. So it's not that testing or the infrastructure particularly it's the. Vagaries of human behavior. I, mean, people just don't behave the way you expect them to behave at Syracuse University they had to immediately suspend twenty three's freshman for again just exuberance you know they were they went out and a few kids started roaming around campus and then more showed up than the large group was roaming around campus and who knows what they thought they were doing they were just celebrating. Being there but it was against the rules. So it's the human behavior factor that's been really tough well in addition to that Angela I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this because these are young people but for the most part they're adults and they are not living in a bubble what happens on these campuses I imagine could also spread to the surrounding towns and cities that some of these colleges. Are In. So are you concerned about that? Not just the spread on campus, but also how this could affect people off campus? Absolutely the thing about coronavirus in a community is you don't know who has an underlying health condition that it might make a case of corona or covid very much more severe for them, and so the students are not confined to campus as you just mentioned, they go out. into the community, they're eating in restaurants they are engaging in recreational activities, their shopping alongside some people who could be quite frankly at very high risk of severe disease in. So you do get concerned about the impact that it has on the community. When you do bring students back despite the fact that you know we're talking about again young young people it feels like the the way that corona virus. you know you stop the spread of Corona viruses by a community effort. Not, just on campus but by having people apply those standards even off campus and I just wonder you know, is there anybody who's responsible for? This should there be a super spreader outbreak. You know as the colleges, the students is at a local government I mean, I'll be honest it feels somewhat irresponsible. So, most of the communities will also have some sort of like mask mandate depending on their burden of disease. So here in Bryan College Station both our county and our cities have masked mandates. But what we're finding is that communities don't have the law enforcement capacity or have not been willing to enforce some of those mandates out in the community. So you still have students gathering in large groups even though maybe the state has a mandate that no groups over the size of should be congregating without masks and somebody can call the law enforcement to go and break up the gathering but law enforcement capacity is also an issue in trying to enforce those types of mandates out in the community. And Mona in terms of where colleges go from here, our schools being transparent enough with the what they're telling students and the public about cases that are emerging on their campuses. Yaw Hate to I feel like I'm sounding like a school cheerleader here. But on the Transparency Score, a number of schools have what they're calling dashboards, which I was startled to see. But you can look online for your university dashboard. If you're a university student, it tells you things like how many people tested positive how many people were tested that week it's it's got all this statistical information on it. So I think in their own self defense, they're being quite transparent about this because. To do otherwise could be very damaging to their reputations and their reputations are are everything. You know if you have a a big outbreak in your campus or you know infection spreads to more than the one percent or two percent where it generally is now and you're gonNA be in trouble, people are going to lose confidence in US and institution. So I think there's an incentive there to be transparent to be cautious be stern. And Motor harder call us as a national correspondent for the New York Times covering. Higher. Education Angela Clendenin is an assistant professor and uppity meteorology and biostatistics at Texas am university school. Of Public Health thanks to you both. Thank you. Is Thank you. You're welcome. Twenty twenty is on track to be one of the hottest years on record but the exposure to this extreme heat depends on where you live the temperature of one neighborhood could be as much as twenty degrees hotter than another much like with covid nineteen communities of color are disproportionately bearing the brunt of this temperature disparity. One recent study indicates that this. Might be by design earlier this year researchers at Portland State University and the Science Museum of Virginia Link temperature disparities. We're seeing today to racist housing policies from decades past, and now we turn to the authors. One of the authors of that study Vex Sean does is a professor of urban studies and Planning at Portland, State University, EVAC. Thanks for joining me. Thanks for having me. So in the study, you looked at more than one hundred cities in the US what's the degree of difference in terms of temperature between black neighborhoods and white neighborhoods? So across the country we. We survey about one hundred, eight cities, and systematically we were finding that there was a pattern of about five degrees of difference in terms, of Fahrenheit, that across the entire country and in some cities that difference was upwards of thirteen degrees Fahrenheit, and so what we're seeing is a real disparity in terms of WHO's getting exposed to this extreme heat. And are there differences that are more pronounced depending on which cities were talking about like where are certain disparities more striking from geographic standpoint? Right so this is something we're still digging into. This is one of these Corlett of studies were just looking for really broad patterns in one of the things that emerged for us immediately was that ninety four percent of the cities that we looked at had this pattern where historically red line areas where always hotter than their non redline counterparts. and. So this history of disinvestment that had occurred in these redline neighborhoods was very stark and very easy to pick up in this kind of a broad survey of cities Geographically, we're finding that there are several cities that really ranked in the top of the city completely coincidentally the city that I live in Portland Oregon, which is an needless to say been on the news a lot lately ranked number one on that list, and that's where we saw the temperature difference thirteen. Degrees Fahrenheit and so that that really got US thinking the next city was Denver Colorado then came Minneapolis then came the usual suspects that we've heard a lot about in the news in terms of Baltimore and Jacksonville and Orlando and and Chicago as well as Philadelphia. So there are these set of cities that followed the the top three. So we're really starting now to look into those specific cities why their ranking so high what happened historically, what were some of the local policies that occurred? That created this massive disparity in terms of heat I mean you're talking about disparities within the same city, right? These are neighborhoods within the same city. These aren't from city to city even correct. So even within the city, we have certain areas that have had massive freeways go through that have had large public housing complexes that have had all kind of permissive. An undesirable land uses go to these neighborhoods that were historically redlined over the thirties, forties, fifties, and sixties, and all those things that the wealthier often wider neighbors didn't want ended up in these neighborhoods and that's where we're seeing a lot of his disparity. Leave Act are there other WANNA get back to sort of how this happened like y what explains the heat disparities you mentioned things like freeways. But what about things like trees? Right. So we started A, we've been conducting these campaigns where we go around and work with community organizations to go and collect temperature and humidity measurements throughout the country and one of the things we started seeing as we were going about engaging these vast kind of cadre of volunteers to collect these temperature and humidity measurements at very fine resolution very Really granular stuff we started seeing that the neighborhoods volunteers would comment to us that the neighborhoods they were driving through just had many of them had fewer trees had very different land uses, and so we started looking at this in relation to socio demographics who is living there, and we noticed that there was a very clear pattern of lack of tree cover. In these locations and so what happens when you put a freeway down you put a big box big box store down with all that asphalt parking lot that really seals up the ground and there's much less space for anything else that can go and so you're kind of squeezing out trees in the sense of putting down all of this asphalt these big box. Stores, these freeways, and so what now communities have to do in order to be able to cool their neighborhoods with trees is work even harder to now tear up that old asphalt up that concrete and I'm in touch with so many planners and urban foresters that are talking about how do we expand canopy in places that have so much surface ceiling of asphalt so That's the one of the biggest conundrums that we're faced with now is that these historical planning and design policies went in place in such a way that they really make it even harder now to be able to cool those areas as opposed to the non redline counterparts where we can get treason much easier today, and so we have a lot of work ahead of us and be one of the I wanNA make sure we get this and we've got about two minutes left here but I'm curious about the health effects of heat particularly in the communities that you're about I I grew up in a community such as this, and so I'm wondering is their physical or mental health issues that happen as result of extreme heat for people who live in these communities. Oh. Absolutely. It's one of the silent and most discriminating killers that we know of at this point it's outside. Of Kobe it's been one of the largest killers in terms of natural hazards that the US and many places around the world face, and so what happens is it's often identity a heat as a heat wave comes through which growing also intensity duration and frequency around the country. It essentially is affects the body through physical physical response. So this is your ability to thermo regulate. Once you reach that thirty seven Celsius or a ninety eight point, six Fahrenheit threshold in your body's not able to sweat and get that heat out it starts certain organs start to fail, and so what you start seeing is those that are most vulnerable especially those that have pre existing health conditions which Kobe and many other health conditions would challenge them to be able to come through a heatwave well if you have pre. Edition if you have a lack of AC or ability to run the those are really really pernicious. experiences and conditions that would expand and deepen the likelihood of mortality or morbidity. So. It is a very intense. The shonda says a professor of urban studies and planning at. Portland State University thanks for being with me. Appreciate that thanks take care. Welcome back to the takeaway. I'm Tansy Vega on Friday director of National Intelligence John Ratcliffe informed Congress that his office would no longer provide in person briefings about elections security the announcement came despite bipartisan concerns that the twenty twenty election remains vulnerable to foreign interference including from Russia I'm going to continue to keep the promises that I made I'm going to continue to Follow along going to continue to keep Congress informed. But we've had a pandemic of of information being leaked out of the intelligence community, and I'm going to take the measures to make sure that that stops that was ratcliffe speaking on. Fox News this weekend about his controversial decision joining me now isn't Tasha Bertrand National. Security correspondent for politico. Welcome to the show. Natasha. Thanks for having me. Also with us is Ryan Goodman, the editor in chief of just security and former special counsel to the Department of Defense Ryan. Always good to have you on where to be with you. Natasha. You and your colleagues at Politico reported the details of Friday's announcement Early, what was the reaction to this news and what's it been like on Capitol Hill? Yeah. So it's been pretty split along partisan lines and the acting chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee Marco Rubio issued a statement supporting rackliff decision and saying that it was because of leaks coming out of Congress that the Intel community had essentially been forced to make this decision and the vice chairman of that committee. The Democratic Senator Mark. Warner released his own statement saying that. It was outrageous and that it was pretty unprecedented for the Office of the Director of National Intelligence to say that it was no longer going to provide in person briefings to the intelligence committees, which are their direct optique bodies. So it's been divided sharply, but the consensus among intelligence community experts and people in the National Security Community at large is that leaks happen and that it's always been their responsibility to brief their oversight committee's on these issues especially with a with an election about sixty six days away. What's really driving this change? Yeah, it's a good question because leaks can't be the only explanation because there were leaks early on in the summer, but they continue to schedule in person briefings with members of Congress even after those leaks had occurred and there were also reports that there were confrontations between members of the intelligence community and democratic members of Congress, who wanted them to be more forthcoming in their assessment of Russia's interference in the election this time around and Russia's motives. So I think that this. Confrontations that were occurring between bill of Anina, top counter Intel official in the US who's responsible for leading this briefing's and members of Congress who on the one hand were trying to push him to reveal more about Russia, and on the Republican side, we're trying to get him to speak more about the threats posed by China really prompted the until community to step back and say look we don't. We don't want the these kinds of confrontations leaking out it makes us look bad. So that's part of the reason Ryan the Intelligence Authorization Act requires briefings to Congress on member on matters of national security. Is this move even Ligo. My view of it would be that it's at a minimum of violation of the spirit of the law. And then I could see a different minds disagreeing as to whether or not. It's a straight up violation of also the law says. That Congress. Must be kept quote fully and currently informed and quote by the intelligence community and this is the reason that speaker. Pelosi and Adam Schiff in their statement said that ratliff action of cutting off all in person briefings was quote unquote an abdication of the lawful responsibility to keep Congress currently informed. So they're they're invoking the law. And you know I also did read the statement by Senator Rubio to be referring to the law as well in that regard because he in his statement differently supports wrapped live. You know that's the crux of the question can congress really be informed in a timely manner if they can't get a face to face interactions where they can ask questions in real time about issues for turf occasion purposes or otherwise, and all they can rely on is the administration saying we'll get back to you in writing. Ryan. The distinction here is that they will provide briefings, but those briefings will only be in writing what is the importance Ryan of Im- person briefings. So I think that the importance of in person briefings is really highly valuable in that it can get at the truth in a way just like in law and in trials cross examination is the most effective way getting at the truth. And that doesn't even have to be a hostile witness. It could even be somebody where you're trying to get at points of clarification. So that's just one part of the exercise. So I think of it as imagine if the president who gets. His in President of future, his or her presidential daily briefing, which is in writing and then has questions they come in with the written product but then the intelligence community is ready to answer any questions that the president might have. If the intelligence community said to the prison on, we're GONNA, put that in writing and we'll get back to you in writing. Nobody would call that a fully an informed briefing and the president would be irate like how you How can operate if you're not going to answer my questions clarification that I need to know kind of now? Another part of it is just imagine the product that's being written inside of the intelligence community. If they know that, they'll never have to face that kind of scrutiny if they know that they'll never have to answer questions by members of Congress going back and forth in real time so that if they don't answer it riot or they try to wiggle around it, the member of Congress will follow up. Then, they know that they can just submit the written product and never have to face the kind of oversight I. Think it changes the nature of the written product There's even in sociology of organizational theory that talks about if an individual or organizations within an administration know that they're going to be scrutinized at the back end. Their product is different. So when you lack that level of oversight, I think what we the information that is getting to Congress is going to look very different, and then the last of course is that it's a bureaucracy. So if they're going to put things in writing, it's GONNA slow matters down I think that's why some members of Congress have invoked this idea of why it needs to be in real time in person exchanges that they also have relied upon across multiple administrations to kind of get at this information. Natasha, we've covered the Senate intelligence committee's recent report bipartisan report. I should say on Russian interference into the election. Can you remind us of some of the top line concerns about election security particularly when it comes to foreign interference Russia correct. I, mean there are concerns here about other players like or Ron Yeah? Yeah. Absolutely and to be clear when you speak to members of the Community National Security? Community. They do say that they believe that China poses the greatest long-term threat to you know not just election security in united. States, but the national security more broadly of the United States, So they compare China to climate change and Russia to kind of a hurricane. So Russia, being the more acute threat especially when it comes to election security in China being more the broader long-term but with regard to Russia the the concern still stem largely from counterintelligence threats. So the the ability of the Russians to kind of infiltrate and co OPS. People who might not be witting or unwitting in terms of promoting their propaganda disinformation or trying to so chaos and interfere in the election in that sense of disinformation and the campaigns are still a very large concern Another big one of is tampering with election infrastructure. The intelligence community has said that they have not seen nearly the level of activity this time around that they did in twenty sixteen but there are also the to admit that they could be missing something that dis- level, the the reduced level of activity that they see maybe being replaced by something else that they're not seeing There is a lot that still unknown and there have been. members of the Intel community who for years ago. Suspected. That Russia was actually pulling its punches and was holding onto certain material that it could then use later to undermine other either the democratic or the Republican candidates in order to just so chaos. But this time around what what they're seeing is that the Russians are trying to help trump again when re election and that is something that because. Of these person briefings that the members of Congress were getting up until recently, they were able to force out of bill of Nina, the top counter Intel official by pushing and pushing and pushing and saying, okay, what is the? What is your real assessment here of Russia's motives? He finally acknowledged that Russia is trying to undermine Biden and boost the president's candidacy so. The biggest concerns remains about these foreign actors that are working at the behest of Russia to push this information into the mainstream, and that of course is being aided by certain members of Congress who are laundering this information through their committees through certain investigations of the Biden's. And Ryan? Are States. Prepared four, any type of interference right now I mean the the you know in addition to the challenges that we faced in two thousand, sixteen You know we are now dealing with a coronavirus pandemic with the issues of mail in ballots but actual. Voting Technology was an issue before this this election. So our states prepared with their own security infrastructures from what you can tell. So it's difficult to know I mean they're definitely more aware of these kinds of threats than ever before. especially. Because of what we've learned from the two thousand sixteen election and thanks insignificant part to bipartisan work on the Senate Intelligence Committee that is highlighted these kinds of concerns. But what has been lacking is centralized focus in a priority by the federal government coming out of the White House, which has not given this kind of attention to the states that they've asked for in terms of information that they can have. The problem here is leaving it up to states more to themselves. Not The right path that anybody would want to approach this to be the most effective way forward, and that's been a complaint over the last three years because they've been trying to prepare for this since the lessons that have been learned from twenty sixteen. While this is something we're going to be keeping a close eye on Natasha Bertrand the national security correspondent for Politico and Ryan Goodman is the editor in chief of just security. Thanks to you both. and. The school year gets underway concerns about safety of in person learning remain recently covered on the show that some people are turning to less conventional ideas, including learning pods where parents or private teachers oversee a small group of students. But for families considering other out of the box approaches to education. One option is something called unscrewing. It's a method that lets kids lead the way allowing them to shape their own curriculum and learn at their own pace on schooling. I emerge in the nineteen eighties when a Canadian filmmaker and writer named Astra Taylor was growing up and she's written about being unschooled by her mother and she told us why being unschooled was. A better fit for her I was very grateful to be unschooled and to kind of be left to my own devices and to not have to experience what I felt were now the problems with school, which was you know that sort of in this arbitrary group. Okay. So we're all eight. So I'm in a room full of eight year olds and being told to learn according to very formal schedule and someone even at eight years old I would get really into something and I would want to do it for more than forty five minutes or maybe even more from the more than the whole day I'd Wanna be able to really get invested. For more on this I'm joined now by Peter Gray Research Professor at Boston College and author of the Book Free to learn Peter Welcome to the takeaway. I'm. Glad to be. Here. Peter. What's on schooling? Really. So legally to on school, you have to register as a home schooler. So from a legal perspective on schooling as A. As. A way of doing homeschooling. And what it really means is that you if you're the parents you have decided to trust your child. Direct his or her own education that you are not going to require a particular curricula Moore. Going to worry about testing your child, you're going to really trust your child's instincts and desire to learn. And allow your child to take charge of of their own education. That's really what on schooling is now does that include is that sort of additive to things like teaching your child how to read or or how to count or doing basic? Things that we need to survive in in in the world today or is that Also something that that kids can can direct on their own. Interestingly that's also something that kids learn on their own. It's very interesting I've actually done a little study by surveying on schooling families about how children learn how to read about how they learn to calculate with numbers. And is very interesting that many families don't even know how children learn to read. They just picked it up. You know just the kind of the way they learn or language. One interesting thing is that children learn to read if they're unschooled at very different ages, some children learn very early some children learn later but I have yet to find and I've done quite a number of studies yet to find any child at an unsettling family who did not learn how to read. And most of them were not taught in any deliberate way. What's the appeal here for parents and and and I guess the bigger question for me is doesn't that require a certain amount of attention parents and maybe even this is a word that gets us a lot privilege to be able to stay home and I mean a lot of us are staying home because we have to. But but sort of doesn't that require just a level of the ability to to school your kids that not everybody has. I I wouldn't recommend on schooling or any kind of home schooling for every family I don't think it's the solution for every family I don't think it's so much income. I think it has more to do with. Is this really what you want to do is this your priority. the What. There's not a whole lot of data on this but the only two studies that I'm aware of that looked at the income level of people doing on schooling. Indicated that the median income for people doing on schooling is less than the median income for the nation as a whole. So you certainly don't have to be wealthy to do this on the other hand. If you're in great poverty if you're a single parent having to work on schooling would be very difficult There are however a growing number of learning centers for people doing home schooling or schooling where your child can be out this learning center during the day if you're working and the and the child and it's ended if it's an on schooling oriented. Santer. it follows those principles there may be courses, but it's your free to take them or not take them. There are adults there who. Are. Literate and numerate There are other kids there to play with. Most of these involve some tuition but a growing number of them have sliding scales all the way down to not to issue at all if you can't afford it. So there's a growing number of means. There's recognition that if we want this to be available to everybody, we have to find ways to make it possible for people with with low income and families where there can't be somebody home during the day. One of the things that interested me about this topic is looking at instagram and sort of finding out that there are parents particularly parents of color black, and Brown parents in particular who are starting to at least from what it appears to get interested in this in this as well. Are you noticing that communities of color are starting to embrace on schooling? Absolutely there's a growing number many are talking about it as part of a General Liberation Movement Many. people of Color feel that their children are being discriminated against in various ways in public school. they're taking their children out because of that and men, and within that category A. Certain number are choosing on schooling There's a number of African American leaders, black leaders of on schooling movements currently in the United States. I'm sure there are some parents who are thinking what happens to my kid if I let them direct everything at the end of the day that they grow up to be okay. Do they grew up to go to college? For example? Are there are they able to you know manage in sort of more structured educational environments as they get older? Yes while I was curious about that I a few years ago along with Professor Gina Riley at Hunter. College I did A. Study of grown on schoolers, we. Seventy five grown on schoolers we looked at Their life as a adults and also talked about what they had been doing when they were when they were young people being unschooled. And we found that more than half of them had gone onto a bachelor's degree. Some of them had never been to school before they went on to college yet they got into college and did well there. the they were. Wild employed one of the most interesting findings from that study. Was At for well more than half of them, you could see a very direct relationship between passionate interests that they had developed as children and their careers. So because they had plenty of time as children to to play and explore and discover what they liked and become good at that, they were able to go on to careers that they greatly enjoyed. Peter. Gray. Is Research Professor at Boston College and author of free to learn Peter thanks so much. You're very welcome. And that's our show for today. Everyone. Thanks so much for listening. If you miss this show or you WANNA listen back to any of our other shows, you can go check out our podcast at the takeaway dot org or wherever you get your podcasts and also don't forget to call us at eight, seven, seven eight might take or send us a tweet at the takeaway with your thoughts. I'll be out for a couple of days. I'll see you back on Monday. Thanks again for being with US I'm Tansy and Vega, and this is the takeaway. You.

Congress United States Russia Ryan Goodman Senate intelligence committee Angela New York Times China Mona Heart twenty twenty Peter Gray Portland State University Tansy Vega Intel president University of North Carolina University of Notre Dame director Angela Clendenin Assistant Pro National Intelligence
Children And Play, During A Pandemic

Radio Boston

19:07 min | 11 months ago

Children And Play, During A Pandemic

"Summer is here. The ninety degrees didn't tip it off. It also means school is out and parents are looking for fun things to do to keep those kiddos entertained, and if you're like me, I'm guessing you're asking some of these same questions. How do you make summer vacation fund in the middle of pandemic? Everything from trips to playgrounds team sports play dates all kind of underlined by this theme of what's safe, and what's not and I'm sure you've got your own questions about how to handle summer vacation with your kids. We're GONNA bring you. Great guests to help answer those so go ahead and jump on board. One, eight, hundred, four, two, three, eight, two, five, five. That's one eight hundred four to three talk. Joining us now is Dr Rick Molly. He's a senior physician in pediatrics in the Division of Infectious Diseases at Boston Children's hospital. And also a professor of Pediatrics at Harvard Medical School Dr Mollie Welcome, Radio Boston? Thank you for having me? And also with us is Peter Gray. He's a research professor of psychology at Boston College author of free to learn and founder of let grow a nonprofit. That promotes child lead. Play Peter Welcome back to you as well. Very happy to be here. So Dr Mollie. I want to start with you and ask you kind of where kids fit into this pandemic. If we go back to. When we first started learning about corona virus, there was some concern that they'd be so called super spreaders. Have we learned any more about the role? Kids play in spreading Kurna virus. I think we have although there's still a lot to learn at the outset of the pandemic. Exactly as you said, most people really thought this was going to follow the same pattern as other common respiratory viruses like a flu where children are really unfortunately, the main vectors of transmission, and so a lot of people were worried. That was going to be the case, but we had read reports from China that really indicated that children were somewhat wore likely to resist the negative consequences of disinfection and not get quite as sick, so that was the first puzzle. The second puzzle was that we found. Found out from other countries like Iceland and and Israel and other countries across the world that not only were children less likely to get sick. They were also less likely to even catch the virus in their nose, and therefore less likely to spread it now it. It isn't to say that they can't get sick from the virus. We certainly have unfortunately many examples of that, but they do seem to be more resistant to getting sick, and they also seem to be probably more resistant to serving as ping pong players to spread the virus across their families or other members of the community. It's really interesting. I've got a son who will be five this summer and so I can tell you firsthand wearing masks washing your hands. It all looks great on paper. That can be a real challenge. Actually on the ground kind of any general advice for parents in terms of how to keep your kids safe as we're starting to enter the summer months. It's very interesting and important question. You're asking I. Think we all recognize that? Our dream of running around in a park on the beach with our kids not involve them wearing masks, and and stings exceeded away from from other children or other. People even you know and are friendly with. But I do think that we have to take a certain amount of precautions, because even though children are less likely to get sick and less likely to transmit probably bay still can get sick and make still probably spread the virus, and therefore the recommendations we make is to if the child is old enough like your children old enough to understand what we're trying. To. Explain to them that you can have fun. You can be outside. In fact, we want you to be outside, but we want you to follow a few rules that did not exist until six months ago and those are the rules of staying a little bit away from people who are not directly in your family unit, or in your social bubble, and also, when and if the child is willing to wear a mask so that they do not infect others and I think that's a very empowering statement. You can make to a child to say that the reason they're wearing masks is to make sure that they're keeping all the other people safe as well. It's a great way to look at. It Peter I want to bring you in here and and we are going to. The solicitor calls and questions as well one, eight, hundred, four, two, three, eight, two, five five. If you want to join the conversation. Peter I mentioned in your intro you. You've spent your career researching play. Can you talk a little bit about the importance of play in a child's development? And what have you seen in the last few months during the pandemic? Play as crucial to children's development and much of my research shows that over the last few decades our children have been very play deprived We put the spent so much time in school so much time at homework after school so much time in adult directed activities which are not fully play play as activity that children develop themselves. Children take control of themselves. Where children learn to be independent and solve their own problems, so I've done a lot of research that shows. that as we as we deprived children, more and more of free play. We get more anxious. More depressed, less resilient children we have. Huge increases in childhood suicide over the last several decades, and the which of course is just the tip of the iceberg And what my research suggests, it's because children are so often in stressful competitive kinds of activities such as school. And have so little time to adjust really be children. To play. So what's interesting right now? Is, all these things that have kept children's so busy have been shut off. And what the consequences of that well the LET Grillo? Nonprofit which have apart of. has recently completed. A major survey of families across the country surveyed eight hundred families pretty well balanced for socio-economic group geographic. Placement and so on these are families that have children between the ages of eight and thirteen, and we asked a lot of questions about how. The parents are coping the questions to the directed to the parents and questions directed to the target child within the family. Let me just give you a little bit of the data. The data were surprising even to me. And I think they will be even more surprising to others, so one of the. Was to the children. Are you more calm now or less calm? Than you were when you were before the before the school closures forty nine. Said more calm. Twenty five percent said less calm and the rest said about the same the parents, the same question, forty three percent said they are now less stressed. Twenty nine percent said more stress. The others said no difference now. Here's something that you know you introduce this by saying. Keep kids entertained. The interesting thing that parents are learning is. They don't have to entertain their cats. Kids are pretty darn good at finding ways to entertain themselves. It took a while some cases up. They were bored. Boredom is a good thing. They figured out what to do, so we got responses from the kids saying things like. You know I've owned a guitar for two years and I've never had time to learn to play it. It I have learned to play the guitar and you watch on Youtube played the cutter. We've heard from many kids who are riding bicycles for the first time a match that we were growing a generation of kids who aren't learning to ride bicycles because they're kept so busy, also because we're so afraid, they'll get hurt out there in the bicycle well, the traffic slow down for a while. Kids didn't have much else to do. This is a safe way to get out and play so. I've heard from parents. I can't buy a bicycle. There's a run on bicycles you know so. There's an interesting phenomenon here I don't want to say it is interesting I don't know obviously. Obviously and obviously there are family suffering. Obviously, we probably didn't hear from the families that. You know that you just hate one within the family. You don't want to be stuck at home with their. We probably heard from the families who are coping a little better than some of the other families, but what's really interesting is these these parents are saying I am impressed by my children. They are. They are more responsible. They're taking more control themselves. Many of them are doing homework. They're asked how it is interesting. Housework that I didn't think they were capable of doing. It is interesting that A lot of what you're talking about obviously sounds great, but there is a privilege component here to right not everybody can go out and buy a bike or has space in a backyard for kids to play or. You know maybe parents who are frontline workers who are still having to go into the office and they're trying to figure out childcare situations. How? How are you thinking about that as you're processing the data? I think that's a very very good point, and it's it's It's hard to know but what I can tell you. Is that the problem that existed before this pandemic? Is across social class. It's across race. Children have been suffering because of deprivation of play. and. Primary reasons for the deprivation of play is not having time to do it, and because we're living in a world where people feel that, it's unsafe for children to go outdoors. We've exaggerated the dangers and this is across social class. There was a time a couple of decades ago when this was more common in the. so-called more privileged classes, they were more overprotective of their children than within then and then people who are economically less less-privileged. Now. This is across social class. Partly because people are afraid, they'll be arrested if they'd send their children out to play. A buzzer can of worms. We could get into another time I do want to make sure we get some calls in here, so let's Let's go to the phones seibu in Sudbury. is on the line welcome to Radio Boston Seibu. Thanks for having me my question in this context kind of maybe. And and I'm hearing all the benefits and I think I agree with with some of those things that that are intrinsically happening with trying to expand. Ways that children are staying busy My comment would be you know I'm very personable person and I like to think my son is four and a half is also developing to be the same way. How do you start to explain some more of the uncertainty around just running into folks say in public areas where you are trying to get outside That's kind of my first question, and my second question is in terms of. How do you keep your so more? The the flip side of that your private circle? How do you sort of ensure that folks are taking it seriously? You know the virus seriously and being able to interact with them. both indoors and outdoors right because some are summer will come to an. Thank, you yeah, that's a great question documentary. Let me bring you in on this. Because I think socialization obviously has a number of benefits. But how do you balance that with the health concerns? Yeah it's it's a challenge. We've all been facing I think it. It's helpful to remember that even know. We can't put a number to the risk that is associated with for example crossing somebody in the hallway, or or on the elevator, or even in a park, just running into somebody in sort of even bumping into them, and then moving away. It just doesn't seem likely that that represents a huge risk of transmission, and therefore when one tries to explain to children depending on their age, of course, what should or should not be done I think it can be done in a way where you're trying to explain to the child that it's important to reduce those interactions to limit that type of. You know close contact if you will with somebody that is not part of their family or their social bubble, but without giving them this fear. This thing Zaidi that all of a sudden they've entered some sort of radioactive zone when they're in in the face of someone that they don't know I think that really can help quite a bit to reduce the anxiety in frustration that people might have. I do think it's absolutely critically important that we take advantage of good weather that we take ring kids outside that we we re engage in the type of activities that make our kids healthier and happier. Without creating the sense that just because you're temporarily in very briefly closer to someone. Then maybe you and I would like for a child that that is going to represent a significant risk. Yeah I'll go back to the phones at one, eight, hundred, four, two, three, eight, two, five, five Danny in Cambridge. You're up next. Welcome to the show, Danny. What's on your mind? Thank you so much for taking my call I'm a question for your gas. I have a twenty seven month old and forget about the fact that I can't get this kid to put on a mask to save my life. He hates when I wear my mask. It really bothers him and my question. Speak of I. Language I got an eighteen gets during the say cries as soon as it goes on. Each us, it's awful and you know. daycares are opening back up. Our daycare centers opening back up at the end of July, and I think the thing that concerns me is I know that developmentally small children are really reliant on facial expressions. And what scares me, you know. What is this going to affect our children developmentally when they go back to daycare? And you know their teachers all have face masks on you know. How are they going to be able to read their expression to connect with them to form those bonds and those connections that will affect them for the rest of their life. Is this something that I mean you know? Is this something that we really need to be concerned about and if so? How do we mitigate that? How do we rectify that at home? Great Question Danny I'll throw that up to either you Rick Molly Peter Greg whoever wants to have thought to that which which bay surprise some people. You can see facial expressions on zoom or on the computer. So one possibility is with little kids. Let them interact with their friends and other people over the computer. At least not, it's not perfect it doesn't. It doesn't take the place of physical hugs. And jostling all of that, but at least it's If you're concerned about losing the opportunity to respond to physical expressions, you know of course during this time we've all been on Zuma heck of a lot more than we ever were before and I think what everybody's finding is. It those computer of when you're when you're looking at one another. It's It's certainly better than being on the telephone. It's It's you're you're interacting. With go back to the phones. Here revealed in Cambridge up next Ravizza. What's on your mind? Hi Thank you for taking my Cole. I WANNA ask Dr Mollie. He mentioned You mentioned a social bubble, and I was wondering. How many families do you recommend to connect together to form that bubble? It's a great question. Dr Mollie. What do you say? You know I think like anything. It's a matter of knowing your. Your friends and the members of your bubble in other words. If you sent to me, I have to families that I'm very close to, and they have kids and we have all pledged. To really only see one another and nobody else. And that could amount of age. Have a couple of kids. You have a couple of kids that can amount to like a pretty big group of people but as long as everybody is respectful of that contract. To the extent possible, then I think that's not an unsafe. Situation what you don't want is a situation. Where for example, your your friends are part of six different social bubbles sort of jumping around from one group to another in another because then unfortunately. The whole contract is basically void as far as I'm concerned and so more than the number of families that you're willing to include. I would consider it using your own judgment of how much risk you're willing to take for yourself and for your families, for example, restaurants are now. Open indoors outdoors. personally I think it's very rational to try to decide for yourself whether you feel more comfortable with people who are going to be for example, eating outdoors at the restaurant rather than going inside, and that might be a way to judge whether people in your bubble are respecting that same degree of risk that you're taking on for your own family and that might help you decide. Go ahead go ahead. I was GONNA I was GonNa tag another on. We don't have time for any more calls. But the Karen and Carlisle was gonNA. Ask about her fifteen year old, and whether they should be babysitting small kids. I'd imagine your advice is something. Similar lines understand the family's. You'd be working with how they're approaching the situation. Yes I think you're absolutely right. It's it's. It's good to get that information. These days fortunately, it will not be viewed as being intrusive to ask people how they are managing the pandemic. Actually, it's a very interesting conversation I think you know people learn from one another that way what works what doesn't what makes them feel comfortable and I think if somebody wants to have a job such as babysitting, it would be very important to understand what the other family is doing. Let's talk to Rick Molly senior physician in Pediatrics in the Division of Infectious Diseases at Boston Children's Hospital and a professor of Pediatrics at Harvard Medical School Dr Mollie. Thanks so much for the time. My pleasure. And, also with US Peter. Gray reports professors psychology at Boston College. Author of free to learn and founder of let grow a nonprofit that promotes child lead pay a play Peter. Thanks so much for your time to. Thank you for having me on.

Rick Molly Peter Greg Dr Mollie Peter Gray professor of Pediatrics Danny Boston College Division of Infectious Disease founder Boston Children Dr Rick Molly Boston Cambridge professor of psychology Youtube Boston Children's Hospital Harvard Medical School flu Peter I China Harvard Medical School Dr Moll
Maggie Dent: What Teenage Boys Really Need

ON BOYS Podcast

46:34 min | 6 months ago

Maggie Dent: What Teenage Boys Really Need

"Hello and welcome to on ambroise real talk about parenting teaching and reaching tomorrow's men the podcast that explorers an explains boy behavior. Where your co host. Jennifer l w frank and janet alison join us as we discuss some of the most compelling issues facing boys today our goal is to equip you with the information and support. You need to help. Today's boys grow into healthy. Happy men what words. Come to mind when you hear the phrase teenage boy. I know one of the first words that pops into my head is messy and that probably has something to do with the fact that i am living with teenage boys and then i also think frustrating stinky other words that frequently pop to mind for people are lazy unmotivated moody and even though we don't admit it. Dangerous is a term that so often is har- perception of teenage boys. But please remember inside. Every teenage boy is a four year. Old who is confused about life and desperate to know that you will love him unconditionally especially when he cannot love himself. Those are the wise wise words of maguy dent. Who is joining us today. Many of you already know maggie. She is well known in australia. She is commonly known as the queen of common sense. She is in my mind in in janet's mind one of the world's foremost boy expert and just amazing human beings. Maggie is joining us today to talk about her latest book from boys to men guiding our teen boys to grow into happy healthy men. That's the goal. The question is how do we get from those moody stinky messy frustrating thirteen and fourteen year old to a happy healthy man. That's a tough road maggie. And i'm lucky. I've got four of got there so my credibility squad on and they do and what's really interesting is that three of them announced daddy's and that's when you know that you've kind of done a pretty good job. My gosh in that twelve to fifteen. I would've thought i'd failed miserably as a parent with old at the things you've listed including why's that milk still on the bench overnight or that empty milk jug is back in the old war. Why you always opening the pant for dole and the fridge door at ten o'clock tonight. I haven't been shopping. Came in their mine. Came down at one. Am to check the other day. I happen to be up way too late. And i'm like really apparently that snacktime now unaware of this yet. The the time has altered but it isn't it so interesting particularly for for mama's you know like i work a lot with boys and men and i did serve. I allotted them which is why they are voices was so important to me to make sure i wasn't just a woman making it up. It was the voices of complete confusion during this window about things that i had never given thought to now. I have taught them to fifteen years. Before i became a counselor of six or seven years full time and i didn't know that under that mass that you often say in a classroom which can be anything from a smart aleck to the class clown to a sporty jock to a bully is really a confused boy. Just hanging on for the ride faking that. He's okay but really driving a lot of anxiety and terrified of mucking apple filing in front of particularly his peers. Let alone the teacher. I think that is so important for us to keep in. Mind that what we see that presentation that we see in our homes in our communities in our classrooms. That's not necessarily who that boy is inside. And it can be really hard to let go of your perception and be open to there being more but when we do i think we can be more compassionate and meet them where they're at you do realize that boys have always been Sparking to more harshly punished more firmly. And also there was a kind of perception out there that you weren't firm and punish i just end up terrible so they think shamed much more so you know a part of them is just being given a really tough ride to that point so one of the strategies talk about a guyanese had we have those conversations and there's a whole chapter on that which will touch some of those things but recently i've got a message from mom and dad who had read the book who had a fourteen year old. That was just ever getting into trouble at school. That had grounded him guided him removed. These devices being taken these phone off him and stop dame like they've done all the traditional behavior things and he was just getting worse and worse and anger and more disrespectful. And i had suggested in there what you try. Kindness and taking a walk so the next motivation from school. They went for a walk with him. They walked down to the local machias. Got a bucket of chips. I that And then on the white heim had a conversation where he was able to explain some of the things that were happening for him and finally being heard and the dead said who would have thought a walk and a bucket of chips is done more than everything we've tried in the last six months and not only that the boy is up. The next day actually wished his parents. Good morning right. Soak that in listeners. To stirring that it is the power of connection the power of listening the power of getting off our high horse that it has to look a certain way and be a certain way and just slowing down and arrest mummies way. Just think new ny that you just don't listen right. Well it depends what they're doing in the moment because there's so much better it's single focus so if they're whatever it might be if they ating totally in that moment if they watching tv undefined the in that space that often do not here and it's not deliberate or intentional and yet we read that as that don't we then. We stopped the nagging nagging. Which because they've learned to tune out from because of course. It's been happening for years if you walked over and rubbed shoulder. Yep refugees hair giving magento punch on the arm and ask just like it is. Somebody loves sure to introduce the dishwasher mighty. It's such a difference. Isn't it that whole. They are not intentionally ignoring us. And i think. I wrote it in that god pace that apparently went round the world like i think three hundred thousand people read it in about five days i was very much like nagging is like shouting into avoid yes. It doesn't work. Even fee goes however fee boys again. They've been conditioned to again. I've heard all this. It's it's not helping me. And i have no idea what i've done wrong already. Already done something wrong. And it only serves to raise our blood pressure. They feel when we're angry at them. They feel when we disappointed and it hurts them deeply in here. We don't think that they are sensitive. They just because they can't articulate it and they've been conditioned not to with their feelings. My goodness and i share this story about the fourteen year old boy who tried to end his life when mummy frozen out after poor report card and just didn't talk to him for five days which is something that we have a tendency to do. When we're a bit annoyed hey thought she had permanently stop loving him and he said i didn't wanna live in a world without my mom's love i'd prefer to leave this world. Now that's the depth of sensitivity and emotional vulnerability that we have to be much bigger people without prefrontal lobes to recognize that. What i'm seeing on. The outside is not necessarily what he's going on the inside that they desperate fraut connection and knox kicked saying. Can you tell them show them. You love them especially when they mockup over and over and over again and that jumping on their brother from the top. Bunk was not an intention to her. The brother was actually intention for us to have fun. It just seemed like in the moment. A really good idea is an intention to connect. Yeah it's connecting rough and tumble rough housing. And yet we keep on making them wrong for it and yet in amongst all. That was weird. I learned there were boundaries around the rough housing. So you know that play code which talks about if they haven't been immersed enough with real play in a real world with children that guy. Hey no that was too hard then. I can't read facial expressions is as how late teens and early twenty boys if they're allowed back out industry So let's talk about that because so much of it is about that the bumping up against your friend your brother which you've probably seen your brother a little bit too much in the last eight months and this deep need for connection not only with your parents your peers. What do we do for our boys in this time of isolation and fear about being together in huge because in that window of thirteen to fourteen years of age in those classrooms. My goodness it was like what happened to that. Beautiful boy from nostra. The esscalation of groping slapping the throat tunneling sitting on shoving was just palpable every year. So you kind of had to figure it as an educator akeso there must be something developmentally going on in there and we can talk about it through biology and near signs out. Challenge for all these guy when they unable to do that. This is how boys physical. They only want to do that. Behavior with the boys. They like have affection for And you know different times when they've been separated that's why they wanting so much more to hang on line and i'm loving hearing about zoom pizza parties and zoom konin movies together. Kind of he'll be a boy in the background fighting. You know and it's not to be disrespectful. He wants to make his mates laugh. 'cause laughing is a why i feel deeply connected you know. They don't wanna shout and shame and they say cheap bro. I really love you. Like girls will so again that sort of behaviour. How do you do that in the digital space many of cost do it through that guy. Ming we know that there are. There are some challenges amongst that because in the heat of the moment you'll beautiful boy can turn into a lesson well behind boy and the language coming out of his mouth is not what you would want but yet in the boy space in the midst of the context. It's probably not a sign your son's going off the rails and going to be an awful human being way. I know many parents have had to suffer boundaries because we do know this is about their mental health. The mental wellbeing my challenge view is the uncertainty of how long they're going to still be unable for the boys to rake connect so one of the things that was happening here when we had shut down they were able to get outside for an arrow to die so that will actually on local basketball coach. Dying remade apart iran basketball. That were on skateboards to made his up and down the street. They were out there climbing trees so we had to look at a context where it still philpott. We would doing stuff together rather than just relying on the digital spiced some that. Were you know. I'm throwing basketballs cost the streets or bouncing sure sugar and then of course they have got the sanitizers for when they come in. You know the end of the day. I think we've got to really look at the price that many of our boys particularly in that early window. That's the vulnerable window. with the more confusion. The more forgetfulness the more raging hormones. the more Zits the more embedded behaving penises. That you can ever put into at a three year window that they In need of profound mosa connections. Us parents i believe has to step up and sealing some of that ridiculousness you have to fill in some of that Of may it would have been easy. Because i'm a basketball tragic so massive voter every house even today and i would just have ten fifteen boys out the like just something around until we can do those things again where to our boys feel i belong by is connected because they are pushing away from mom and dad. That is what they biologically meant to do. And that's the role of where the lighthouse vegas will. The lighthouse figures can't get their ride. This significant adult allies from teachers to coaches to in any community with those people. And i know there's valiant teachers and coaches who are doing their best to connect with the kids in facilitate the kids to do what they can under the restrictions. They have but it's hard and it's and there is this whole thing about validating a guy that we are in something like what was a world war except we're not shooting each other. These avars doing it for us in the fact that we need to talk about those stories of human survival and recovery and particularly around here. I mean one of the boys in main thing that we need to keep reminding in the still biologically wide to be the mammoth hunter and the cyberspace tiger killer. We need to call force that part of them and you know what ways can you the out there ready to do the right thing to look after. Keep an eye out for your friends. You will not jane that few oscar boy. How he's feeling you'll get great not want to if you ask how they've friends Them struggling with You will start to get a conversation and then the boy will move away and think how he is you have actually got into his own sense of wellbeing but if you ask me he's not gonna tell you right now because that's too quick question but i'm going to go away and think about it for wall because i like to dog bit data more can respond and also he then starts looking a bit more out for friends and that's what they are really good at doing. How do they any har- but not themselves. Let's talk a little bit about teenage boys boys in general but especially in the teenage years they really want to do something of use in the world they want to make a difference and due to the pandemic most of them right now are parked in front of computers doing online learning. We can't change the pandemic overnight. This is where things are at but how can we. As parents in concerned family members educators. Help our boys under these circumstances still contribute to the world because that's so important to their self worth which i want to get into next yet. There's no question that that is important. I think this brings up that saints that if you want to raise a boy to be a really decent human being later in life you need to marinate them marinate them like you would pace of mate in american height with theresa goodman right. Just men and brags. Now there are lots and lots of stories online that Macos they don't always go no way to look for and when we bring those stories up and of course quite often. They can connect with that particular boy. That's now a man We have two beautiful men in our country who will eighteen nineteen when they set up what code orange sky and it is a mobile washing thing for homeless people to wash the clothes that they were doing social work. And the whole thing is always orange chase. Sit everybody around while you're washing getting done and it was about the connection of humans. It now is all over australia. It's actually now spreading to parts of the world as of two boys who technically should not have a complete pre from lobe right in the mid twenties. When we show that an app boys can step up with go to fifteen year old boy necessarily strategy that when he was twelve. We have a terrible drought. He started five of farmers sa- five dollars donation towards farmers. Now he's now fifteen. His rights like ten million dollars or something and he's now doing something else. He's joined with lego to create a. You know like this boy. And he's you know he's not your shining as best looking sporty dude. Hey boy who saw something that he thought he could make a difference with. Obviously it helps if we have family members that support us that we need to let those sometimes the big idea. Sometimes they're not big ideas Even just being able to watch out for your own elderly people in your straight little things change and when we made that jen so much more not just about. They're building their self worth but we need it to Waken the influence of all the negatives search online whether it's law beheadings or its gaming and you know all the things that are encouraging them to be disrespectful particularly pornography so if they keep watching that then we shifting that moral code inside them into something that nobody wants you know. Our job is to marinate them with the opposite and give them opportunities. And we'll say i would have a competition in my house about. What can you do that. It's going to make the world better in the next three months seriously between you because it's a competition it's a sign from me to strive to beat my brothers. Would you coast as you know. Is it motivating totally motivating but you do motivating towards good. Yes and i think. That's that's the thing that draws boys wise. It misses the point. You're going that boys and men tend to need that external experience or that event which which they then judge themselves and go. Hey did good. I can feel that me. Yep the close taken seventy those away so this forty kids can't go out and do that. We the music kits are oversee doing online but not able to be extended as much as they were before those who loved nature out much so they losing the things that were filling that cop and low self worth and low self. Esteem is coming for teens but for our boys. What's that external thing. And this was whilst encouraging australia boys to learn really good cooking. Nato learn how to make this salad or cook. The pancakes really good or to bike. Something you know a curry but you have to do it really well. You've got to practice it. Yes so that in our family light. You're going to be seen as the expert of that dish. Yeah and it doesn't sound big but for a boy in a to be recognized that is constantly fading that sense of so forth without having to go punch. They bra jumped when hit or something. Yeah when you said marinate our boys in stories of good men that really struck me because if we don't make a deliberate effort to do that i really feel like our boys right now especially the teenagers who are paying attention to the world. They are being marinated in stories of bad men. There are lots of examples of men behaving badly that have made the news all over the world in recent years. It's out there it's real. It's true but if that's what our boys marinated they start to feel like the message is being boy isn't good being a man isn't good and that can be so harmful to their self esteem and to their relationship with the rest of the world boys who begin to believe that who continue to internalize that as teenagers. Those are the people who can become dangerous. Men said that window. I have seen really will rise boys from loving homes even himes with a faith who get lost in that window for fourteen fifteen sixteen because of exactly those things and many of them whether they were you know following sporting heroes that behaved appallingly or just other world leaders. That were behaving a windy. It's how much you get exposed to that. And because many of them are running around on digital highway without us in you know knowing way thy it is it has become very difficult in. It's one of the things. I've been speaking of a bit lightly with had some really badly behaving Boys in the following year of school here Setting up some really pulling individuals pranks that were of a different nature to what we've ever heard before they were know and at some said it was because they're in privileged schools but it is because of this the culture around them is what are they exposed to now remember a boy will go and join a group he feels will help him look accepted and values of confident with these sporty days over the the brought kids over the kids way. Can i fit. And if you're welcome into the ones that are into smoking poor misbehaving badly and being delinquent you will go away you can belong is drive. That is so strong in adolescence. Which many of us don't understand that we were a little bit the same and then i'm working out. Who am i before you know it. If i'm getting kudos for throwing rocks at streetlights then i'm getting my kudos. Make me feel good. It's not what we would want but internalizing it's something that in that little group it becomes a thing so you know that is one of our big concerns and i. I know that there was some advertisements. Did in australia number of years ago. Trying to discourage change from excessive alcohol consumption and it was respect yourself which sounds fantastic but they had always visuals of teenagers. Vomiting in the straight vomiting toilets falling staggering live at the place which for mature prefrontal lobe is well. Yeah that's not respectful for attain going. Wow look at that fun. That's so cool. Yeah white to get that smash so the whole thing had the complete negative because we have to recognize. They see the world through a lens without that mature prefrontal which is gradually growing. But we can't command it to grow and it's through the constant coaching from good folk with particularly the the ones who are not always mom and dad could seriously i mean there were times i know my boys gon na. You've told him to some of these. Xm an i'm telling you again. I am also opening an uncle or one of your teachers at school. My also had that conversation and it's how we had those conversations as well. Which is why i wrote such date chapter about communication because they actually do. They are hungry for connection and communication. They actually ending the survey the number of men over thirty who expressed a need to have become visitations with their parents about pornography. six You know like all sorts of things that the parents have spent all night. There's a book or you know. I'm sure school covers it. No right now. It's our job to talk about. Porn sakes alcohol drugs everything out job and then hopefully other stewardess. Well because we know the impulse the impose for them to do something. Lisicki create such a high. You know. And that's what i did it and why waited some of it as well but in today's world the risk for i had quite a few trips to a stitches and we didn't break too many binds but i kept thinking on the way they did she think to befo you lift off that enormous rock really because that highest self-copy hood because the boy gus men this has gotta resources and of course. You know dodd into the brian stuff way. The gabba gets turned off. And you know that that gamma amino be tracking acid which is an inhibitor to impulses. It gets turned off as they step on that bridge to manhood and then they had the surges of testosterone which increases how much impulsive gotten much energy and the hunger to do something ever on guys man. That was good. When you're bonded together you get to understand it. So when they've hurt them so or broken the window or got into trouble for something we need to recognize. This is developmentally a lot of reasons contributing to that having the conversation that these are the reasons your not bad. You're not stupid. What you've done was a poor choice and you will get better at making better choices particularly when you get hurt because ended the natural consequence doing that. Why don't we round them and guide them off to woods already bathing themselves up. United janai beating themselves up for being so stupid so the last thing i need is the people who are bison the world to jump onto the sign what they actually need. It sounds counterintuitive. It's tenderness. I know when my boys have sometimes had that outbursts made that. We wish they didn't which probably discharging some of the stress from the school environmental life. I have two ways of responding is a mature grown-up who loves them or detain in me. Just decided that boy. That's the truth. Responding as an adult as maggie says or as our teenage self never our finest moment as parents. We will pause for a moment. I wanna share with you our resource that will help you be the head parent instead of that teenage self. This message from jennifer jen once again. Monday morning comes and i see your building boys bulletin in my inbox and i cannot wait to open because i know inside. There is valuable crisp. You created information. That would take me hours and hours to find. And first of all i want to say bravo. Thank you and second of all. I want to tell our listeners. About the building boys bulletin. Thank you so much building. Boys bulletin is my subscription. Newsletter comes out every monday morning. And it's got a inspiration from me. It's got links to articles about boys and raising them and educating them with all of the great stuff pulled out already. Because i know that you do not have time to read all of those articles. It always has links to our latest on boys episodes links to relevant building boys articles. And it really can help you build your relationship with your son and more effectively parent him. So i am offering a special. This month of. We love our listeners in everybody who has joined us because they wanted to hear maggie's wonderful words of wisdom still. I am offering a special discount through the end of november. If you subscribe you get twenty. Five percent off. The yearly or monthly subscription andhra australian listeners. With twenty five percent off that comes to just about sixty dollars australian or if you go monthly. It's about six dollars a month australian. I consider it a very worthwhile investment in europe relationship with your sons and frankly your own sanity as a boy parent absolutely and it's such a time saver. Jen how do i get that discount. The easiest way easiest way is just to go to building boys dot net and when you see subscribe go there click on that. Enter your email address choose. The paid subscription has to be the paid subscription to get the weekly edition and you will automatically get that discount if you subscribe by the end of november gen. That is an awesome resource and i encourage listeners to take advantage of this discount that you're offering thanks for being so generous. I look forward to sharing as you know. I always have a lot to say about building boys at. It's all good. And i'd often go down and knock on the door about twenty minutes later. Let myself come there and have a cup of hot chocolate non-squeaky biscuit cookie that in shove the dogging shut the door and walk away because knife what they wanna know a waste to like. Then this compensation what is triggering once under. Because that's what. I wanna do a woman. This is different from how most of us were parented. Saw parenting done from what we think. Good parenting looks like there is such anxiety in the world right now. We really want to raise good men. None of us want to raise the disrespectful jackass. That is our big fear right and so so many of us are afraid that if we let that stuff go or we don't get on them that that's going to be the outcome so to think that the thing i should do instead of telling him. What a disrespectful jackass he is or what a jerky was. You're telling me. I should give hot chocolate. I'm sure that you have gotten resistance from parents on that idea. Well they it's interesting because there's that kind of saints that yeah that's seriously that's ridiculous is condoning it. And then they'd given it a guard as we have to give it a guard because as soon as there's inactive tenderness at boys hots melton warm back towards us and i hit one of the things i keep saying you tell them even when you really think they don't deserve it but every now and then just telling me i love them is one thing but showing when we show them with that warm. Warm rubber the back from me. I'm i would do things like you know. Prepare a snack on you that lot. Particularly after winning twenty four hours of having something really difficult. Because that's when we know they re grouping wishing i hadn't and sometimes that's when we can say in at wasn't yesterday wasn't one of your best moments was it and now sorry mom that's it twenty four hours later. He might get that but also i would try to on the foot sometimes all lane on them in the kitchen just laying on them and other ouch. I'm not always using woods to shot in connect And that's why. I keep saying really badly but every now and then a well-timed fought in year. Teenage boy can actually rig build a bridge. Yeah that they feeling is there and they want sweat. They know that you still love them. The chances of them listening to you the chances of them coming to you when everything is going awful a so much higher you know. That's one of the things around. So assad right for boys and men Is they would come in that moment because they don't wanna see the look of disappointment on our face they don't wanna let us down again. We need them to know that we can love them fiercely through anything and we will be there so they can lean on us. But how do they do that. If all they're getting is the tough love is the firmness is that inability to let you know as to got you. The hot chocolate says is to love you. even though i'm not really happy with that behavior annoyed that they already know that they wished they hadn't done that. And i think it's that that shifting of that mindset. Oh my god. Mike crying every now and then because he's messages nearly every day now With boys who are actually picking the book up to raid pots of it. Because i didn't know that they. Brian can help them. Make them feel more forgetful. And they've already lost the backpack on the bus with the medicare and they find and if invading themselves up dying huckabee so stupid. Like what was i thinking but that got pruned off so when we help them better understand themselves while way learning to understand them you can have that relationship where i really didn't have that many moments. I did with my tourist boys because of course united they gonna also brought more often and i think i know everything. I'm they disagree with you boundaries. The two lambs with the easiest boys ever And so i look at that. But i also know that we played a lot of basketball when our crabby or having a fight with each other i'll go back outside with that oil. I took them surfing took to the beach because that was mother night to correcting stuff. Then yeah they. They don't have an intention. I really believe we misread that that. The aggression violence. We talk about so often. It's an an emotional stuff. That's coming out and i have no other way to be able to express it so physicality if we can get rid of it before there's a big emotion that needs it all to come out towards something we're doing them a favor and i'd the last thing i needed when they were named was getting out of bed at five o'clock on a saturday morning i was teaching fulltime to take them and they might thing but what i saw after that what i heard in the car on the way home was just the happiest teen boys you could even ever mate and loss for and that was worth it. It was the best natural high ever And so again. Whatever it is that spock do everything. It can to nurture it and that song. No it's difficult with your shutdowns and things bank difficult look at it. What is the spark. We haven't found a spot. I'd like to look at the you know. Multiple intelligences map and heaven. Little look and say which of these is my son naturally. Good at good at the things that make you go to school. Has he got some other talent. We have into yet. Is this something we need to discover for him. Which is kind of why i love them doing. All those options at school can't do either created. My boys not got a creative bone in their body. None of them seriously arts and crafts. We're never that went on in my house either. One of them maggie klein mug. Here it is behind me. Look this it's the most funny. Wow it's really thick. I lived paying his son proud of that. Hey said it was the best class in his life and you know why because fourteen clay fun. It was a mile lot teacher. He said i'm giving all of you bait. I just want you to have a guy there the instructions on how you make a mug we what music would you lock in the class. I wanted to be a great place. It wasn't worth the base seriously but one day he had like almost influenza and he was going because clay was on. he's. Fizzy is now trying to do emergency medicine. So he's a bright boy but that was the cloths indian nine. That guy he munaf join juice. Wanna kate going to school because everything else was a warring. Yeah oh my gosh listeners. I wish you you know by now that we record via soon so that we can see each other. And i wish you could see a. Are you know maggie. You're talking just nodding our heads up and down up and down agreeing with everything that you say and you put it in in such clear terms and endearing terms. It really is fun to hear your stories and we know you raised for amazing boys and the proof is in there one year. I had a nephew so i had five boys. I taking down to eleven and gaza had to shop. Every day writes all their friends with aris. Well so it was like eight loaves of bread in the phrase that just in case i had another load of friends. Come you know as hard as that is to deal with at the grocery store. And you're tired of going back and forth is a really good investment in connecting with your kids in getting to know their friends and i have to remind myself of that sometimes because i get so tired of going to the store and did i not just by you chips. And what are you doing with this stuff. I'm one of the tapings at comeback in the research of seventeen hundred men. When i asked the question who was the most significant person in your life as you were going over the bridge demand. Who was they. My significant person fifty six percent said they mum so i need to let you know. I know journey to manhood in. Yes they they definitely benefit from the influence of good men but when things were tough or when they needed someone to help them understand stuff having a mum that could listen. That could kind of be there. You know like i said the adult ally. They scifis was huge. And that single moms solo moms can rise awesome awesome boys. We don't have to think that if i haven't got a good man not going to work out k. Because the research shows really clearly that boys are watching women and men and looking at the attributes of us go. I like that and you know. I had the the baki story with our stopped one by this boy. That was very man. That was very harry and scary. Who said do you remember me and long story short. Basically i had taught him in a year where i decided not to punish students my new boys who turned up without this stuff like you pick out as at the back of the room piper and got on with their work and he said i'm do you remember that year. I was so glad you did that. How often i needed it. And i said you did need a lot in you. And he said so that year. My mom was an alcoholic and she was on a lot of to my hands. And if my name was on a bender islip in the park. But you'll classroom was the only one i turned out with and i got the same. Welcome this same. Hello the same encouragement it was my psych displaced my whole year and i i learned kindness of you. I know i look tough. Yup he had lemon tattoos and he said that my girls. He's got three daughters. Call me a marshmallow. Because i hope it meals on wheels and i volunteer to help in the elderly. And you're the person who taught me that not wanted to stop. Thank you forever. And i ended up hugging this sparky in the main street and people thinking maggie dance lost the plot completely. But as i drive home that digest. That was. When i realized that. I'm i thought i had missed that boy. Because i didn't have that. Profound connection I didn't even know his parents. I didn't they never come to anything. I thought i'd missed that boy. I hadn't missed that boy. You know old to know we influence the sacredness in the gentleness and attendance about boys by out actions even a little bit distant and that we all have a part to play. That's what i call the collective with all got to step forward for all apple is not just the ones that we've given birth to eliminate house. I think that it applies so much to those fifty six percent. Who said that their mom was there person because i would be willing to bet my life on the fact that That wasn't necessarily easily apparent as they were going through the team years. There were times when that mom felt like she was failing miserably. There were times when that boy told his mother sneddon she was terrible person and all of i hate you exactly. That's normal. it sucks it hurts. You will cry. it'll happen again in. It'll happen again and this is where you need your friends to talk to. But we are making a difference. Yep we are making a difference. We can bring this full circle because we started with words to describe teenage boys and we said no stinky frustrating. A megi you just said and reminded us use the word sacred gentle tender that is teenage boys also and if you want to connect with teenage boys helped them become goodman. Remember those words. Remember those words. And allow maggie's words today to wash over you in those tough times and encouragement and hell take a chance. Slip him a mug of chocolate. You have nothing to lose by trying it because whatever you're doing right now has gotten you where you are right now. Do something different yet. Absolutely and again the the hungering adolescence to belong somewhere inside. They families great but outside the family. That connection might mean that you have a law bodies sometimes in your house and that you are also co parenting those in your house and that's what you'll get louder one a now overseeing. They thirties and they've had weddings. They might have come up and shake things that have happened in our house that i couldn't even remember that have stayed with them. Let's that ten us jin. They remember acts of kindness. Necks of goodness. Like you wouldn't believe whereas you know as females. We remember everything. Generally avoid remembers the kindness. Because they don't get as much of it as they'll go through so a guy named it is the goal that hides underneath that conceived. Look yeah oh my goodness how maggie. You're amazing if you have not picked up a copy of make us book from boys to men guiding our team boys to grow into happy healthy men. I strongly encourage you to do so Before we got on she was telling us about how an initial runs had already sold out. But don't let that stop you go online order and may be reminded us of your website because you have so many fantastic resources on there for yeah i am and also the audible version is out there in the book but the it's on a ship. It should be an american shortly. Okay so maggie dot com. I'm really committed to free information as well So there's really significant. There's a section of of course raising boys rising adolescence which you will find really significant blogs. That can help you my youtube channel of short videos. everything from teens Totalism everything in around behind so there is lots of free information just google. My boys can't believe what happens when you go their mother's name some gen ryan voice. Because they're teenagers right now. Maggie they know. Exactly what's going on and also i have a parental as anything. Podcast do the ceo the here which is available. Wherever you get your podcasts equally sized thing half hour. Quick common sense and i have Explored lots and lots of things that will make sense to every parent out there in the world. And then i just want you to know that my heart is with you will in that beautiful country of yours and i think you maggie as our hearts are with you and your beautiful country in jenin. I have a dream one day. We have a dream we doing. Ceo we are coming. Were coming maggie. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with all our work to well. We're we're all here as boy champions. We We hope you enjoyed this conversation with maggie as much as i did and i know that some of you are struggling with your boys with your tween and your teens and i want to share with you this message. Are you worried about your teams mental health. We have talked a lot here on boys. Well mental health concerns anxiety depression suicide prevention if you think that your team might benefit from some professional support go to teen counseling dot com slash team boys team. Counseling connects your thirteen to nineteen year old with a licensed professional counselor and all counseling. Sessions are done via video conferencing or the phone. Your team can even text when they need extra support and the best part with team counseling. You have access to expertise. That might not be available locally. You can choose a gay therapist. For instance or a person of color on boys. Listeners can get ten percent off their first month. Sign up at teen counseling dot com slash teen boys. Thanks for joining us today. This is on boys real. Talk about parenting teaching. In reaching tomorrow's men we are your co host. Jennifer l w think of building boys dot net and janet alison of boys. Alive dot com.

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State Report On Outbreak At Holyoke Soldiers' Home Describes Conditions As A 'War Zone'

Radio Boston

47:55 min | 11 months ago

State Report On Outbreak At Holyoke Soldiers' Home Describes Conditions As A 'War Zone'

"A scathing report out today details Governor Baker calls an abject failure of leadership in the handling of the coronavirus outbreak at the soldiers home in Holyoke late March here. He is speaking at a press conference earlier today. Is this report reveals? Errors were made at the holyoke soldiers home before covid nineteen. More hours were made in preparation for Covid nineteen and still Maurer's were made during the homes initial clinical response to the pandemic in March. Wbu Ours Mariam. Wasser has been following the story and joins us now. Hey, Marian. Across. So. There's some pretty tough stuff in this report. Can you give us a sense? What were some of the key findings that were released it? Short so this report I'm and just a backup for a minute. This investigation was ordered by the governor in late March after came to life than a number of veterans had died in the holy soldiers home, and it was unclear why people higher up in the state didn't know about what happened. And if there was a miscommunication or some sort of cover up, which something people were talking about so this report that came out today first of all, it said there was no cover-up into the outbreak, which is something that we are looking for looking to to figure out But more importantly, the report found that the fact that the outbreak occurred is in itself an indication that the management team in State Department of veteran affairs failed. But I'm GonNa read a quote here from the report, said some critical decisions made by Mr Walsh, and he was the home superintendent who was put on administrative leave and his leadership team during the final two weeks of March twenty twenty were utterly baffling from an infection control perspective, and were inconsistent with homes mission to treat its veterans with honor and dignity. So, one of the most. Yeah, I know. One of the most striking example said by report is something that we have reported on in the past, which was the leadership's decision to combine two floors of residents in late March in on Friday march twenty seven. And this move they knowingly combined two floors of veterans were some had tested negative and some herbs some were presumed to be positive and had tested positive with patients with residents that were showing no symptoms so they they mixed presumably covert positive cova, negative patients and said that they did this first staffing shortage reasons. So. Here's what the report about that. Rather than isolating those with the disease from those who are asymptomatic, a basic tenant of infection control the consolidation of these two units resulted in more than forty veterans crowded into space, designed to hold twenty five. This overcrowding was the opposite of infection control instead to put those who are asymptomatic at either instead it put those eysenck dramatic at even greater risk of contracting covert nineteen. So beyond the consolidation. For jump in the report noted six substantial failures by the leadership team there. Was Not isolating patients suspected of having the virus, not immediately testing veterans who showed covid nineteen symptoms waiting too long to close common spaces in the home, rotating staff among units, not having consistent policies for personal protective equipment, and failing to properly document the problem and keep records. So much of what you just outlined. Four seems so. The wrong move when you're facing this kind of pandemic I know that the report included some thoughts from staff. What? What were some things that staff were talking about about the situation? Yeah so. Staff and Steph was worth things that we have reported in the pastern I've talked to staff but I mean they. You know there. There's lines about in there about staff being traumatized from the decision They talked about feeling like they were walking people. To let's. Okay here's a here's a quote on a recreational therapist who is instructed to help with the move said that she felt like she was quote. Walking the veterans to their death in the veterans were terrified as neither social worker felt like moving. The felt like it was like moving concentration camp where moving these unknowing veterans off to die. And other people said you know. I'll never get these images out of my mind what we did. What was done to this veterans? These veterans? Where's the respect dignity for these men I mean Stafford been reporting all along. They've been horrified by the moves. That management is asked them to make. That some of the things that they had to do. The pretty staggering to see all that in in one place and as I said, it's tough stuff in there for anybody I'm sure family members of veterans who lost their lives to covid are having an incredible tough time to to read through some of this. Had a chance to speak to any affected family members. I did I'm. This afternoon I spoke to a woman named Cheryl. Mallory notes in her. father-in-law died from cove nineteen. Because of this outbreak, he was in the holy soldier home and I believe we have a piece of tape for my interview with her. I'm not surprised at what the report shows. Being someone who's gone on, you know gone in and out of Silla. Lot, We can see that there were definite missteps here and those missteps led to veterans, dying And people need to be held accountable for that. And do you feel like that's happening right now? The jury's still out on that one. You can resign them. Position doesn't mean you're absolve. So as she said you know, this is obviously. It's it's hard to read this report, but a lot of what they is in the reporter things that they were hearing to from from people at the home. That's unbelievable I. I think she meant you ask her about accountability. That's obviously I. Think something. A lot of folks are GonNa be thinking about now is who is to blame for this. And what are the consequences We've got a little bit sound of governor. Baker talking about that the press conference earlier today. Our, administration did not properly oversee the superintendent. And his team. During this tenure, the lack of oversight contributed to the tragic failure to protect the veterans at the soldiers home, when covid nineteen th struck vulnerable patients in the long term care facility. So we know secretary of Veterans Affairs Francisco. You're Anna resigned yesterday. Do we know exactly what led to his resignation and what his rule in this situation was? Yeah so Francisco you Raina. Is. who also has no like that Superintendent of the Soldiers Bennett? Walsh had no medical experience. No, no oversight. I mean no no experience over seeing any sort of nursing home or medical management team. But it was. Bennett Walsh the superintendent of the holyoke soldiers home reported directly to Francisco Arena, who then reported to health and Human Services? and as we found out today, Secretary Health and Human Services Secretary Mary loose sutter's. Asked, you're A to resign last night and he agreed you know emails show that that Bennett Walsh had escalated his concerns, t arena, and it just doesn't seem like you're at their took them seriously brought them to the right people on. There was just a lot of. Poor communication and a lot of bad decision making on both his part and on Bennett Walsh's part that's one of the big big themes of the report. Is that the management team and the leadership at the Department of veteran services just made a bunch of bad decisions. You mentioned Bennett whilst the former Superintendent of the soldiers home was placed on leave. Do, we know. Are there any further repercussions that he's facing at this point? We don't know the specifics yet. Governor Baker did did seem to hint that he was going to be removed from office. When he spoke at a press conference earlier today, but nothing that we can confirm so far He has as mentioned. He has been on paid administrative leave since March thirtieth and a couple of weeks ago at least a a trove of email documents that he said. Absolved, him of, a blame. It's just such troubling observations and remarks from the staff you have to imagine there are a lot of people that were involved in some of the decision making at least Is there any sign of anyone else being held accountable for this? And how will that procedure play out? So when we talk about the management team at this the soldiers home, we're really talking about about eight or nine people, or maybe nine or ten. If you include Bennett Walsh and what was clear from this report is that they were a tight inner circle that didn't talk to. Other people didn't let others in on their decision making now. Process. Didn't take advice from others were at times than DICTA. And retaliatory against staff who spoke out? And we do know that a number of them have been I believe four have either resigned or been demoted. That director of nursing has resigned and then the director of. Medical, the medical director at the home. A Guy Name Doctor Clinton also resigned a couple weeks ago, and the report had some pretty Stephen Things to say about him. He! Talks about how he. Wasn't he was only part time and there's someone quoting. They didn't really feel like he had the organizational skills to lead this older home, he. Just wasn't wasn't up to the task, so so he was out end as the report notes, it's unclear that anyone. Of sorry he he develops symptoms that he thought were covid nineteen on in mid to late March, and took himself to the hospital turns out. He was covid negative, but he wasn't at the home during the worst of the outbreak, and as the report notes, it's unclear that anyone else filled in to be the medical director, so you can really imagine it's the people leading best. There there was no medical director in charge there as a director of nursing and Ben Bennett Walsh, who again has no medical experience reporting to Franscisco Rain, who also has no medical experience? And one other thing that said I. had. They want another thing that I. do want to note is that? We WBZ reported this story a couple of weeks ago, that in two thousand sixteen, the state legislature created a position within the Department of veteran services that was supposed to be directly accountable was supposed to directly oversee, but the holyoke soldiers home and its sister facility in Chelsea. And that person needs to have healthcare management experience. Unnatural was just never filled at Franscisco. Uranium says it wasn't filled because of budgetary reasons, but really it just. This report is just pointing out the fact that it every level. There was supposed to be someone accountable. that. person just wasn't there that that job wasn't filled. and it was just a giant. Yeah Pretty! Gut wrenching to read through some of this knowing it's obviously a life and death matter for so many. I want to ask you for a little bit a big picture perspective here before we let you go, you've you've been keeping up with corona viruses impact in places like nursing, home or senior care facilities. Throw a couple of questions here at you. Have we seen higher death? Count's at senior long term care facilities and the state working to address that, and and are there lessons from holyoke that we can extrapolate to two other facilities. Yeah so long term care facilities account for sixty three percent of all coronavirus related deaths in Massachusetts so I think it's fair to say that they've been some of the hardest hit at facilities anywhere. as turn fires how the State is working to address that They have the the state is set aside at about two hundred and sixty million dollars in a couple of different installments for nursing homes to work on infection control practices to get the PCP they need to bulk up on staffing to test people who need to be tested. And that is an an ongoing process. The State had mandated that all nursing homes test everyone, all staff and residents in in May and the vast majority of nursing homes actually did that then they're able to use the results of that data to either isolate people who needed to be isolated are figure out what to do. And the state also established what it called a twenty eight point infection control plan. That is a bare minimum of of what needs to be. Done in the state has been audited nursing homes and assisted living residences since May And and then a for one that are not passing the audits. They're sending resources and helping them meet these standards, so I would say that the current events can DEMOC has has definitely illuminated a lot of shortcomings at some of these facilities in whether it's. Short staffing or Just at kind of the nature of congregate care in general, a lot of these things have been brought to light by the pandemic and that we haven't seen any. Any sort of long-term changes yet or are big legislative changes. People that I talked to do think that form is coming eventually, and that's something that we should be on the lookout for. ATM So the final question you asked. was there any lessons from holyoke to be applied at similar facilities? I would say. Though. Yeah I mean I think the idea is that you need people who have medical experience in jobs that require. Medical experience and that transparency is really important, and that things can get out of control really really quickly. It's important to be prepared. Hard to process that as we're thinking about seventy six veterans left that let lost their lives just at the holyoke soldiers home. Wr's Mary Mosser thanks for much free time. Appreciate it. In the video, showing the killing of George Floyd there were three officers standing by and watching as their colleague Derek chevelle kneeled on Floyd's neck for eight minutes and forty six seconds. In the weeks that followed one of the questions protesters and activists are asking is why is it that when police violence happens? Other officers are often just standing by and watching rather than stepping into intervene. Here's how Suffolk County District Attorney Rachel Rawlins. Put It on, Radio Boston yesterday. What is it about the police that we allow bad actors to continue behaving badly. A nobody says anything about it and be management doesn't terminate them and see DA's. Don't go in and say I want to look at these internal affairs or anti-corruption investigations in see if we can root out these individuals that are behaving badly or even criminally. For more. We're joined by Ervin STAUB. His professor emeritus of psychology and founding director with mass amherst the psychology of peace and violence program. A Holocaust survivor style has spent his life working to understand the roots of good and evil, and how acts of violence, genocide and mass killings are allowed to happen, and maybe most importantly how to apply what he's learned to real world interventions. One way he hopes to do that is through a police training program that focuses on empowering officers to step in and stop their colleagues from doing unnecessary harm Irvine. Thank you so much for being here today. Pleasure professor style. You've studied police violence in the role of bystanders with includes other officers. Since the Rodney King Riots in Nineteen Ninety two. And yet here we are almost thirty years later. We're still talking about the same issues. Why has been such a hard problem to solve? Then on many reasons for each one of them is that. The police culture is sarge that officers are expected by other officers and by superior officers to support their fellow officer. No matter what the officer So if that officer engages in some kind of unnecessary harmful behavior of your other officers expected either to support it. Actively or passively standby, but not to go contrary it. And that is a serious problem. and. That's part of. Hall police divides the World Between Oz the police. And the rest of the world, and that becomes a problem of course. Yeah, so I know you've developed was essentially active bystander training four police departments after the Rodney King incident. I know in New Orleans. They've they've adapted his training. Under a new name. Epic like ethical policing is courageous. The New York Times describes it as teaching officers to police one another. Can you tell us a little bit about the training? You've developed in in the core principles behind it. Now the training is binged on two kinds of research that I have done one research in laboratory environments like at the university where people here sounds of distress from another room. Crash and sounds of distress. And depending on what that person says, the behavioral, the other person there is a great deal if somebody defines the situation as an emergency as a need for how and cause the other person for how everybody helps, I also studied what happens in? Mass violence, mass, killing and genocide. And that people individual also groups when the GAIJIN harmful behavior, they changed as a result of their own actions, so that violence evolves becomes more intense and it's only. Prohibitive influences like active bystanders exerts powerful influence that stops evolution, so are you to dis to create both an understanding on the part of police officers of what leads them to engage in unnecessary violence of what is necessary in order to inhibit that, and also what are the benefits when they do get so one benefit of course is Sierra Leone's on not going to be injured in hand unnecessarily. And other benefit is elise community relations and other things. Is that active bystander? She saves for these officers from losing their jobs. It also is very important for ethical officers in a department where a lot of unethical behavior that they will be less stressed once you engage them in this training, they see the benefits offered and these New Orleans. They welcomed everybody. Pt and Suzy are sickly participated so I guess my question to that is you've had training like this in development sense the early nineties. In yet. We haven't seen a large number of police. Departments take advantage of something like this. Why why do you think that if? It hasn't received wide attention New Orleans standing because it seems so successful as a lot of attention in the media. And the circumstances are such. The need for it is so crucial. We saw what happened to George Florida. And the the officers remaining passive. And a few days later. There was in the event in Seattle when a police officer was doing something very similar to what the officer was doing to George Floyd meaning on the neck of a person lying on the ground, and then other officer said to him get off, and officer did not get off, and this other officer shoved him off the neck of the person. Save that person's life and probably saved also is fellow officer. Heat is an example of passive bystander, sheep, an active bystander ship, and it is so powerful when you see it in action and. And you know, we can train people not to use a particular practice and make it illegal like choke loads, but that are so many ways to harm people that it's not enough to make a particular practice, illegal or unacceptable. You have to make all such behaviour unacceptable and have to get other officers who are present to stop it, and that could really truly transformed policing in America I mentioned we talked to Suffolk County, District Attorney Rachel Rawlins yesterday, and she characterized Derek Shaw Van, who kneeled on George Floyd's neck as a bad actor. You've dedicated your life to studying good and evil in in so many different contexts including the police obviously. But also as you mentioned in terms of genocide and mass killings. I'm wondering is the ultimate goal. Can you train out bad apples or will? They'll always be bad apples and the ultimate goal is to empower those around the bad actors to step in then is. Only one way to train out bad apples, and that is to create apartment. And this training can do that that make such behavior unacceptable, if a so called bad apple. That other officers will intervene and lot accept such behavior. When the WHO climate in that police humid changes then it becomes much less likely that bad apples do that bad six. So, it's not like necessarily. The nature of that officer will change. But it is the undestanding of their officer of their environment, and what is acceptable and unacceptable. That can change. You say that you know the department and Lowest Departments where other officer remain passive. Anybody's a bad apple. Seeing. An officer do really harmful behaviour to someone when it is not necessary and the remaining passive that means that you had a bad apple, so. This training I believe because some of these people are good people, but the culture and their training, and their experience at all debt makes them remain passive. That turns them into bad up. So we can transform that. We can change that. and. The climate that develops can be transformative. Yeah, that is a big lift that you're asking. In terms of changing the culture across police departments across the country and I'm curious how you're thinking about that. As. We're hearing this national push to to fund or basically decrease funding for police departments. We've seen in Minneapolis. For example. The Department was disbanded to be rebuilt, so some folks are calling for huge structural change You're talking about a training program. I'm wondering how you see that fitting in either is that intervention in the system that exists or do you see that How do you see that fitting into the picture? As we're thinking about structurally how law enforcement looks in this country? What happened in New Orleans Department was really bad in terms of harmful actions. That was a new superintendent. So that's a very big step to how into right Harrison to need A. And the superior. General. So that is already transformational, but there was no disbanding was no huge changes, and then this training came in so if there is the right leadership, and if that is the right training, and if officers who find such cleaning unacceptable, and cannot go along with it, then along the way, if necessary, they are weeded out, but it may not be necessary if the majority to support. Now one problem with police with police units is contracts with police unions that protect officers that behave Bagley no matter what I mean a lot of these contracts don't even a law. Any reports of unnecessary violent behavior, unnecessary harmful behavior, so that has to change and Let's important now. Is it necessary to dismantle police departments for that to happen? Is it necessary on leak for people in charge to be willing to confront these you news and change agreements and contracts so that the contracts do not allow such protection for police officers will behave badly on. Think that that going together with such a training could really do what is necessary I think that if the people in charge of facility are committed enough, if the legislature is committed enough to have community boards that actually have some power and supervise for me is that would be extremely valuable. but destroying could give a long way of the problems professor. Stab you obviously. We asked you here today to talk about a very specific aspect of your research. You obviously have a very powerful story to tell love to have you back sometime down the road to talk more about that. If something you'd be interested in, it will be a pleasure to be back and sent you for having invited me. I enjoyed talking to you. That's Ervin Staub a professor emeritus of psychology and founding director with UMASS. Amherst the psychology of peace and violence program style is work to create active bystander police training to empower officers to stop their colleagues from doing unnecessary harm. Summer is here. The Ninety degree days didn't tip off It also means school is out and parents are looking for fun things to do to keep. Those kiddos entertained. And if you're like me, I'm guessing you're asking some of these same questions. How do you make summer vacation fund in the middle of pandemic? Everything from trips to playgrounds team sports play dates all kind of underlined by this theme of what's safe and what's not and I'm sure you've got your own questions about how to handle summer vacation with your kids. We're GONNA bring. You great guests to help answer those so go ahead and jump on board. One, eight, hundred, four, two, three, eight, two, five, five. That's one eight, hundred four to three talk. Joining us now is Dr Rick Molly. He's a senior physician in pediatrics in the Division of Infectious Diseases at Boston Children's Hospital and also professor of Pediatrics at Harvard, Medical School Dr Mollie. Welcome Radio Boston. Thank you for having me. And also with us is Peter Gray. He's a research professor of psychology. At Boston College author of free to learn and co-founder of let grow nonprofit that promotes child lead play Peter Focus. Make to you as well. Very happy to be here. So Dr Mollie I. Want To start with you and ask you kind of where kids fit into this pandemic. If we go back to when we first started learning about corona virus, there was some concern that they'd be so-called super spreaders. Have we learned any more about the role. Kids play in in spreading coronavirus. I think we have although there's still a lot to learn at the outset of the pandemic. Exactly as you said, most people really thought that this was going to follow the same pattern as other common respiratory viruses like the flu, where children are really unfortunately, the main vectors of transmission, and so a lot of people were worried if that was going to be the case. But we had read reports from China that really indicated that children were somewhat more likely to resist the negative consequences of disinfection and not get quite as sick. So that was the first puzzle. The second puzzle was that we found out from other countries like Iceland and Israel and other countries across the world that not only were children less likely to get sick. They were also less likely to even catch. Catch the virus in their nose and therefore less likely to spread it now. It isn't to say that they can't get sick from the virus. We certainly have unfortunately many examples of that, but they do seem to be more resistant to getting sick, and they also seem to be probably more resistant to serving as ping pong players to spread the virus across their families or other members of the community. It's really interesting. I've got a son who will be five this summer, and so I can tell you firsthand wearing masks washing your hands. It all looks great on paper. That can be a real challenge. Actually on the ground. Do you have any general advice for parents in terms of how to keep your kids safe as we're starting to enter the summer months? Yeah it's it's a very interesting and important question. Asking I think we all recognize that. Our dream of running around in a park on the beach with our kids not involve them wearing masks, and and staying six feet away from from other children or other. People even that you know and are friendly with. But I do think that we have to take a certain amount of precautions, because even though children are less likely to get sick and less likely to transmit, probably they still can get sick, and they can still probably spread the virus, and therefore the recommendations we make is to if the child is old enough like your children old enough to understand what we're trying to do. To explain to them that you can have fun. You can be outside. In fact, we want you to be outside, but we want you to follow a few rules that did not exist until six months ago and those are the rules of staying a little bit away from people who are not directly in your family unit, or in your social bubble, and also, when and if the child is willing to wear a mask so that they do not infect others and I think that's very empowering statement. You can make to child to say that the reason they wearing masks is to make sure that they're keeping all the other people safe as well. It's a great way to look at it Peter I want to bring you in here and we are going to open this up to some listener calls and questions as well one, eight, hundred, four, two, three, eight, two, five five. If you WANNA join the conversation. Peter. I mentioned in your intro. You've spent your career researching play Can you talk a little bit about the importance of play in a child's development? And and what have you seen in the last few months during the the pandemic? Yeah, well, you know play as crucial to children's development and much of my research shows that over the last few decades our children have been very play deprived. We put the spent so much time in school so much time at homework after school so much time in adult directed activities which are not fully play play as activity that children develop themselves. That children take control of themselves Where children learn to be independent and solve their own problems so I've done a lot of research that shows. that as we as we deprived children, more and more of free play. We get more anxious, more depressed, too less resilient, children. We have huge increases in childhood suicide over the last several decades, and the which of course is just the tip of the iceberg. And what my research suggests, it's because children are so often in stressful competitive. Activities such as school. And have so little time to adjust. Really be children. To play, so what's interesting right now is all these things said if kept children's so busy have been shut off. And what are the consequences of that? Well, the let grill. Nonprofit which is part of? Has recently completed. A major survey of families across the country surveyed eight hundred families pretty well balanced for socio economic groups geographic. Placement and so on these are all families that have children between the age of eight and thirteen, and we asked a lot of questions about how. The parents are coping. There were questions to directed to the parents and questions directed to the target child within the family. Let me, just give you a little bit of the data. The data were surprising even to me. and. I think they will be even more surprising to others, so one of the questions was to the children was. Are you more calm now or less calm? Than you were when you were before the before the school closures forty-nine. More calm. twenty-five percent said less calm and the rest said about the same. We ask the parents the same question. Forty three percent said they are now less stress to. Twenty nine percent said more stress. The other said no difference now. Here's something that you know you introduce this by saying. How do we keep? Kids entertained the interesting thing that parents are learning as they don't have to entertain their kids. Kids are pretty darn good at finding ways to entertain themselves. It took a while in some cases they were bored with. Boredom is a good thing, so they figured out what to do, so we got responses from the kids saying things like. You know I've owned a guitar for two years and I've never had time to learn to play it. I have learned to play the guitar and you watch on Youtube plan the cut. We've heard from many kids who are riding bicycles for the first time. Imagine that we were grown a generation of kids who aren't learning to ride bicycles because they're kept so busy and also because we're so afraid, they'll get hurt out there on the bicycle while the traffic slow down for a while. Kids didn't have much else to do. This is a safe way to get out and play, so you know there's I've heard from parents as I can't buy a bicycle. There's a run on bicycles you know so. There's an interesting phenomenon here. I don't want to say it is interesting I obviously lot obviously and. Their families suffering. Obviously, we probably didn't hear from the families that. You know that just hate one another within the family. You don't want to be stuck at home there. We probably heard from the families were coping a little better than some of the other families, but what's really interesting? These these parents are saying. I am impressed by my children. They are. They are more responsible. They're taking more control themselves. Many of them are doing. Doing Homework, they're asked how it is interesting. Housework that I didn't think they were capable of doing. It is interesting that I'm struck a lot of what you're talking about. Obviously sounds great, but there there is a privilege component here too right. Not Everybody can go out and buy a bike or or has space in a backyard for kids to play or. Maybe parents who are frontline workers who are still having to go into the office and they're trying to figure out childcare situations. How how are you thinking about that? As you're processing the data when I think that's a very very good point, and it's it's a it's hard to know, but what I can tell you. Is that the problem that existed before this pandemic? Is across social class. It's a cross race. Children have been suffering because of deprivation of play, and the primary reason for the deprivation of play is not having time to do it, and because we're living a world where people feel that, it's unsafe for children to go outdoors. We've exaggerated the dangers, and this is across social class. There was a time a couple of decades ago. When this was more common in the so-called more privileged classes, they were more protective of their children than than than and then people who are. Less privileged now. This is across social class. Partly because people are afraid, they'll be arrested if they'd send their children out to play. That's a Buzzer can of worms though we could get into another time, I want to make sure we get some calls in here, so let's Let's go to the phones. Seibu in Sudbury is on the line. Welcome Radio Boston's boot. Thanks for having me. My question in this context kind of maybe. And and hearing all the benefits and I think I agree with what some of those things that that are intrinsically happening with trying to expand. Ways that children are staying busy My comment would be you know I'm a very personable person and I like to think my son is four and a half is also developing to be the same way. How do you start to explain some more of the uncertainty around? Just running into folks say in public areas where you know you are trying to get outside. that's kind of my first question and my second question is in terms of. How do you keep your so the the flip side of that your private circle? How do you sort of ensure that folks are taking it seriously? You know the virus seriously and being able to interact with them. both indoors and outdoors right because some are some are will come to an end. Thank you yeah, that's a great question documentary. Let me bring you in on this. Because I think socialization obviously has a number of benefits. But how do you balance that with the health concerns? Yeah it's it's a challenge. We've all been facing I think it. It's helpful to remember that even know. We can't put a number to the risk that is associated with for example crossing somebody in the hallway, or or on the elevator, or even park, just running into somebody sort of even bumping into them, and then moving away it. It just doesn't seem likely that that represents a huge risk of transmission, and therefore when one tries to explain to children depending on their age. Of course what should or should not be done? I think it can be done in a way where you're trying to explain to the CIA that it's important to reduce those interactions to limit that type of. Close contact if you will with somebody that is not part of their family or their social bubble, but without giving them this fear. This anxiety that all of a sudden. They've entered some sort of radioactive zone when they're in in the face of someone that they don't know I think that really can help quite a bit to reduce the anxiety in frustration that people might have. I do think it's absolutely critically important that we take advantage of good weather that we take ring kids outside that we we re engage in the type of activities that make our kids healthier and happier. Without creating the sense that just because you're temporarily in very briefly closer to someone, then maybe you and I would like for our child that is going to represent a significant risk. Yeah, I WANNA go back to the phones. One, eight, hundred, four, two, three, eight, two, five five Danny Cambridge. You're up next. Welcome to the show Danny. What's on your mind? Thank you so much for taking my call. I'm a question for your gas I have a twenty seven month old, and forget about the fact that I can't get this kid to put on a mask to save my life. He hates when I wear my mask. It really bothers him. You're speaking my language I gotta eighteen during the same cries as soon as it goes on. Each us, it's awful and you know. DAYCARES are opening back. Our daycare centers opening back up at the end of July and I. Think the thing that concerns me is that I know that developmentally small children are really reliant on visual expressions and what scares me is you know? What is this going to affect our children developmentally when they look back to daycare? Daycare and you know their teachers all have face masks on you know. How are they going to be able to read their expression to connect with them to form those bonds and those connections that will affect them for the rest of their life. Is this something died? I mean the you know is that we need to be concerned about and if so. How do we mitigate that? How do we rectify that at home? Great Question Danny, I'll throw that up to either you acknowle Peter Greg whoever wants to have one thought to that, which which bay surprise some people you know you can see. Facial expressions on zoom are on the computer. So what possibility is if with little kids let them interact with their friends and other people over the computer. At least it's not. It's not perfect it doesn't. It doesn't take the place of physical hugs and Jocelyn. Jocelyn and all of that, but at least it's If you're concerned about losing the opportunity to respond to physical expressions, you know of course during this time we've all been on Zuma heck of a lot more than we ever were before and I think what everybody's finding is. It those computer of when you're when you're looking at one another it's it's certainly better than being on the telephone. It's a it's a you're you're interacting? Let's go back to the phones here. In Cambridge you're up next Ravizza. What's on your mind? A high thank you for taking my call I. GonNa Task Dr Mollie. He mentioned You mentioned a social bubble and I was wondering. How many families do you recommend to connect together to form that bubble? It's a great question documentary what he say. I. You know I think like anything. It's a matter of knowing your. Your friends and the members of your bubble in other words. If you said to me, I have to families that I'm very close to, and they have kids and we have all pledged. To really only see one another and nobody else. And that could amount of age. Have a couple of kids. You have a couple of kids that can amount to like a pretty big group of people. But as long as everybody is respectful of that contract. To the extent possible then I think that's not an unsafe. Situation what you don't want is a situation where for example, your your friends are part of six different social bubbles sort of jumping around from one group to another and another, because then unfortunately. The whole contract is basically void as far as I'm concerned and so more than the number of families that you're willing to include, I would consider using your own judgment of how much risk you're willing to take for yourself and for your families. For example, restaurants are now open, open, indoors, open outdoors. personally I think that it's it's very rational to try to decide for yourself whether you feel more comfortable with people who are going to bait for example eating outdoors. At the restaurant rather than going inside, and that might be a way to judge whether people in your bubble are respecting that same degree of risk that you're taking on for your own family and that might help you decide. Yeah go ahead, go ahead. I was GONNA I was GonNa tag another on. We don't have time for any more calls. But Karen and Carlisle was going to ask about her fifteen year old, and whether they should be babysitting small kids. I'd imagine your advice. Is something else. Similar lines understand the family's. You'd be working with and how they're approaching the situation only yes, I think you're absolutely right. It's it's it's good to get. Get that information these days? Fortunately it will not be viewed as being intrusive to ask people how they are managing the pandemic. Actually, it's a very interesting conversation and I think you know people learn from one another that way what works what doesn't what makes them feel comfortable and I think if somebody wants to have a job such as babysitting. It would be very important to understand what the other family is doing. Yep Let's talk to Rick Molly senior physician in Pediatrics in the Division of Infectious Diseases at Boston Children's hospital, and a professor of Pediatrics at Harvard Medical School Dr Mollie. Thanks so much for the time. My pleasure. And also with us as Peter. Gray research professor of Psychology at Boston College author of Free Learn Co founder of let grow a nonprofit that promotes child lead pay a play Peter thanks so much for your time to. Thank you for having me on?

officer holyoke Bennett Walsh superintendent Boston Governor Baker Ervin STAUB New Orleans State Department George Floyd professor of psychology professor asymptomatic Peter Danny Cambridge Dr Mollie Covid Boston College Wasser Marian
School just gets in the way of what you want to learn!

The Homeschooling and Liberty Podcast

26:09 min | 8 months ago

School just gets in the way of what you want to learn!

"Hello. Good morning and welcome. My name is Graham and I'm delighted to be with your today as we start these journeys into asking what it is to be really free free from constraints and conformity free from constant testing and peer pressure and free from unsafe an uninspiring school environments. Free to let children explore the world around them three play corporation and inspiration free to let children learn naturally following their curiosity and then this creativity we that learning isn't about going while at school it's about engaging with. You. Carrying you miss around. As we continue to look at creative solutions to conserving factory model of schooling, we are very fortunate today to be joined by special guest sacks back. Zach is the right hand man of is at Morehouse at practice, and so thoroughly appreciate the crucial need for raising innovative and self driven children in this rapidly changing world where the age old obedient memorization for passing tests serves no longer neither student or employer. Zach is a communicator focusing on issues of education innovation and social change. He's the author of the two thousand Sixteen Amazon says the end of school reclaiming education. From the classroom he regularly speaks on issues of learning social change innovation and the changing job landscape. Zach is a crater and was recognized one of linked tins most influential voices on education. In two thousand fifteen he has been published in Newsweek, The New York Examiner Pittsburgh Potisk at the Christian Science Monitor, and the foundation for economic education amongst many others he is also appeared on the Glenn Beck Program and Huff Post live. So definitely delighted to have you with us today Zach how you doing? Hey, Graham thanks for having me on. I'm excited to be here. That's great. Year we've already had such a great conversation with always look one of your colleagues there practice who definitely gave us a lot of inspiration living a life with his unschooled for children and the many things he does is incredible. So yeah, we just like to start these talks going back to your own schooldays and. How you see those overall now with there, was it a positive time and? Successful Entrepreneur. Now, do you find us many of the skills you total picked up back then? You know it was giving a talk last night at a university in Florida about the history and. Landscape round, modern education and schooling especially in the United States, and I'd eventually I was asked about my own experience in school and I grew up in an era in the United States. That was one of the first big pushes towards standardization. Standardisation Education and growing up you know I I was not as again. Right I was not particularly ideological about many things but I remember very distinctly hating those standardized tests and hating how the school would bend over backwards to make sure that. Everything went well for the state based exams in the in. In the time I was growing up. It was the PSA's the Pennsylvania standardized scholastic assessment and. I remember it got in the way of everything else I wanted to learn right in as I got older I. became done I became capable of understanding more why why that was the case y school hadn't incentive to do that and how that in particular would undermine the students actual drives to to be educated to learn the things they wanted to learn so. I remember in school being very, very frustrated by most of that and to the extent that I was actually able to learn anything in school. It was because a handful of teachers that I had who using their authority as teachers were able to get me out of classes that were mostly around test prep, right? In my book, the end of school I actually dedicated to these teachers who provided me with the opportunity to actually pursue the things I wanted to do and learn things I wanted to learn. And to the extent that I I use anything that I learned in school you know I like to joke that you know you see Amigos goes around on the Internet that something like schools should teach people how to do their taxes and how to succeed in their careers teach them that might Oh contras the powerhouse of the cell right and When is when is the average I never going to use that information right and that reflects a lot of my experience with school I accept that I did learn things that were valuable for me were inspite of school not because of school Roy we do hear that message again and again on in these conversations. Just suffocate and not being able to shoot your own entrusts, strict guidelines and. Yeah I. Know in your in your amazing book, the end of school you do go into the problems and. Solutions. Just wanted if you could go back to what prompted you to write that book and Was a place you started this journey from. Today sentiment I started this journey from any particular place. Really it does go back to my experience growing up in the no child left behind era in the United States, and that's the era of the first big push for national standardized testing. Requirements now the talk is around something called common core end to extend that. I AM influenced by specific education policy issues like that. It's more on a macro level of sometimes get asked my opinion specific policy issues like charter schools and vouchers and Carmen core education I I really don't care much for the policy based discussions I. think it's the principles behind. The policy that matters in the principles behind national testing regimens is that some bureaucrat far off in national capital has a better idea of what? Children need to learn the and their parents do than the children themselves do and then what the teachers who are trained in these things. Do So. That that's not really the thing that's operating far back in the background for me to start writing vendors school but. In a more relevant to the actual writing case I was at the time I was working at practice I remember thinking. That I'd interact with of these ambitious young people at the collegiate level and some of them would come into the program some of them wouldn't and I would be shocked by a certain. Characteristics in traits and habits that were not conducive at all in fact, ran counter to success in the real world and tizard accents. Some of these habits you know came from college these would be like certain procrastination habits, the inability to scheduled things well, things like that. But. The broader more dangerous traits like the desire to just get a gold star or jump through certain hoops and never actually ask yourself why are you doing these things? What are the things you're trying to pursue? Those were the things that I realized man this this runs much deeper than higher education. This this runs indicate through twelve and. If started delving into law the literature that's out there John Taylor ghetto is. Very. Influential on my thinking as I'm sure he is for a lot of your listeners Peter Gray who wrote a book called free to learn fantastic fantastic book I read all of their works Iran handful of other people, and I just started writing about the amalgam of thoughts that came out of my mind after processing lot of this information in writing about that resulted in the end of school Roy Yeah it is a fascinating read and very concise and to the point. I. Just wanted to. Could you take lessons maybe they haven't had a chance to read it yet. How you see the solution arising and is the public school system as it stands at some that can be saved doors it best left as a relic of history as it were, and we we just start something new. I was asked last night. They're not always optimistic on the direction in which public schooling is going in the United States and I when I get a question like that just Kinda Shrug I think that the direction which you'll see education moving is that things like public schools they're probably not going away at the end of the day when they are is their jobs programs if you wanted to downsize or decentralize any sort of public schooling regime The biggest thing you're going to have to fight against is all the special interests tied to that you know not just the teachers unions, but also the textbook companies and all the other companies that are involved in lobbying off war compulsory state education right when I think you're going to see though is more that it's going to become a relic kind of like the postal services in the in the United States if you want to get something from point a to point. B. In it's important. You don't send it by the US nervous. US ended by FEDEX OR UPS right. Or if it's a correspondence, you don't write a letter and put it in the mail. You send someone in email or text messenger you give a phone call right which I think is an important analogy because not only do you have direct competitors like Fedex and ups. Help you from a parcel from point a to point B y'all have indirect services. Like, email, which hope you get communication from pointed point eighty, eight, point three or. Other types of services like. Like the fact that I'm able to send a video the Internet out through dropbox or or Google drive, and I don't actually need to like put it on tape. I don't actually have to put it on a CD or be send it through the mail. There's these indirect things that are still playing a role in chipping away at something like the. Postal. Service. Right. I think going to see something very similar in education is you've eventually see a decentralisation and unbundling of education through different ways I think that for professional education, you're going to see much more engagement in the real world whether that's an apprenticeship model or some sort of mentoring model. What have you you're going to see more of that. For Intellectual Education, you might see more and more specialization through learning. Directly from intellectuals once community which you cannot reach out to easily again. Thanks thanks largely to the internet or Thatt's learning through the that your iphone has access to more knowledge than the libraries at Harvard University combined in the nineteen sixties right You're you're going to eventually see these things just kind of crumble away. NBA. Replaced in a multitude of of areas which unfortunately when someone asks me like well, who would replace the schools? It's like well. Who would build the roads? It's a it's not a satisfying answer to a lot people because what they wanna see they wanna see a nice clean tidy answer. It's like. Well, this specific institution is going to display schools and no. Unfortunately, that's not how it's going to work. I think you're going to see home schooling in home education continued increase your every year as we have been seeing, you're going to see alternate forms of home education as well like. Other varieties that you're going to see more and more types of schools, academies pop up right and not all schools are created equal in my mind that the thing that. Public Schooling I. AN INEFFECTIVE FORM OF EDUCATION IN MY MIND is not at its school, but it is that it's compulsory right? The coercive aspect is the important here John John Taylor who has a quotation that is something like. When you introduce coercion to education that's when it becomes school right and I think that's an in Gordon to run about. Home Education is imperfect everybody. Just as like going to school course of or otherwise is perfect everybody. Yeah. Thank Professor Boys. Who? Can have on he famous equates they view bureau. Of Education what we're going to be seeing who would have thought Google UH. Just a few years ago. So yeah, it is very exciting times we live in and Yeah. Just the amount of work I, come across yours on on incident it's amazing amount of work UN both is Morehouse have have done and post post Byu both work together practice successfully I was just wondering if you could give our listeners, maybe a students out their ideas for when you when you start any projects, how how did you feel it to focus and develop good goals at the beginning and how do you feel that could relate to students approaching any new subjects? Yeah I. Think this is one of the really pernicious things that if you're going to have a good education regime, right whether that's home education or public education, you need to teach people. How to figure out what it is, they want to go after that and there's a variety of different ways you can do this. I think it important point. This is a point that Isaac and others have made elsewhere. Well, an important point is to really understand what you don't want I but I think you can get really really detailed about that. You can ask yourself, what are the things you? Don't want what is what are the ways you don't want your life to low quitter the ways you don't want your job to look very very granular about that. At the same time, we need to have an idea of what is what is a goal to set people don't like setting goals and one of the reasons people don't like setting goals is because setting goals setting a condition for failure. And people don't like feeling like failures and I'm not someone who really enjoys There's a type of literature you'll find on the Internet I call it failure porn where it's just people writing about like, Oh, I've I have failed at fifteen different companies and here's what I learned. It's like. It's better not to fail than it is to fail but at the same time I think that school in particular. Is is a really. Really. Really treats people to fear failure at near rational level, and that prevents people from setting really good goals and I think that would good goals. Look like is the reason you set goals is really twofold. You set them one to measure your progress because if you don't have a goal for whether it's something you want to learn or project you want to start you can't know whether or not. You're progressing towards that thing, right? Simultaneously. You also said goals because a feeling of fulfillment for the vast majority of people does not come from the achievement of goals it comes from progressing towards the chief of meaningful goals in every word in that sentence is important progressing towards is important the achievement of meaningful goals is also very, very important. So I can set a goal to like count every blade of grass in. My Yard that's not really meaningful goal unless I've got a really weird value system around blades of grass But if I figure out that, hey, getting a publishing a book write with a certain type of publisher telling us. Number of copies getting uncertain interviews is valuable to me because of the impact that I wanna make in my life than I know okay I want to publish the book. Published with an established publisher or do that I'm going to need to get literary agent order get a literary age of going to need to do x. y. and Z. Things. So you said a specific goal, right a measurable goal that can help you figure out whether or not you're progressing towards that goal, and then you work backwards from there into you eventually get really granular level. What are the things you can do right now to help you out towards the chief Novak calls. This process of reverse induction is something that I call him bishop mapping, but it's pretty much just setting the goal and working backwards from the achievement of the goal to where you are. Now I think that there's a lot of goal setting workshops there some better than others but I think that where a lot of them go wrong is that they take you from okay. What is the thing you can do right now to move towards your goal without you starting in working. Backwards from the chief of the goal because there's probably a thousand things you can do right now to get yourself closer to the goal, but there's probably a dozen things that are actually going to be highly leveraged things that are going to get you closer bright. So it's being realistic as well as seeing the the end, the end, the objective not only that brighter taking as you say, from from almost finished to start the first first thing way of looking at it. I know you are of a greater of advocate for entrepreneurs and you do have Your Own scholarship program or grants system. So just want you could just tell us a little bit about that. There slay background for young entrepreneurs and how this was born and how it's developed over time and perhaps any successful. As you can show success stories, you can share with us. Yeah we're while January is going to be the first award of the grant of the grant. So I can't share success stories just yet. But hopefully when we speak next year, I'll be able to actually and the slaves. The slave at grant really came out of two things. One is that I I hold this view of. Civil society that really turns on the importance of people. Being proactive in their communities and I think one of the best ways for somebody to be proactive in their community and actually to their community is by. The launching a business? Employing people and this this comes in part from the fact I grew up in A. At the time, it was particularly bad but it was sliding downhill economically recessed region in the United States. Since the election of the new president my region has actually had a number. features on it because these are the people who traditionally vote one way. But in this most recent election voted the other way. And of course, very, very interesting to people coastal beat to read Politico in Wall Street Journal things like that. But one of the things you'd see is people turn to self destructive behaviors when they don't have the opportunity, and this is especially true of young men when they don't have the opportunity to engage in meaningful work and I think meaningful work is a big question mark of what that means for specific people. But one of the ways you provide that for people as you provide people just more opportunities to work. So to the extent that entrepreneur, a business owner or an investor is a heroin figure, it's because they provide many many people with the opportunities to avoid you know. Malevolent nihilism in their lives. So to to the charitable accent that I wanted to start it was because I saw communities like my own kind of sliding downhill and I think one of the better ways to fix it is not by injecting ton of government money into the region in any kind of way. But actually in people who would like to stay in the region and run a business to do so right secondly, it's because I've spoken to some. People who've done grants and investments in they have said especially for young entrepreneurs. One of the most important things for them to keep at their businesses just having somebody else who has experienced with these things look at their business and say, this is something that I think is worth enough money that I will put some money right so for me to give. You know a couple, thousand dollars to a kid who's starting up a small business or start up I don't care really the type of business it is. So long as it's something that can employ people full time. If that's the thing that's going to keep them. Going after their business when things get tough, I absolutely want to provide that opportunity opportunity to them. That's fantastic. Yeah. That seems like a great. Great. Assistance and inspiration as well. Just to end on short conversation, we've had today Zaken. Thank you so much for doing it. Well is there any voice you could offer parents and students are seeing their education path before them and they're not quite happy with where it's going and they're looking for alternatives than they they won't be starting some new apps like practice, but they've peers or their family might be. They might be phase about them getting out of the traditional motorists. One of you could give any advice to people out there experiencing those sorts. Yeah I'd say things are one is to be intentional Again idea of what you want to go after. Back. Our goal goal setting conversation and if that if you have no idea new seriously, don't see any path of you finding an idea take some time to figure out what you, WanNa do right. This is one of the things people always say, Oh, college they don't say this as much anymore as a couple of years ago when I started doing, this is interesting but they'll say college is a great way to figure out what you WANNA do and it's like no. It's very expensive time consuming way to figure out what you WANNA do. If the thing you WanNa do requires that you go to college great I'm going to say for the vast majority of young people not just you know a handful particular people want to go work in tech jobs for the vast majority of young people that's not going to be the case and I think that the time and money investments, they can take over those four years could be better spent elsewhere if they're being intentional about their education. So be intentional about don't just put your education and put your mind your body on autopilot Secondly, I would say find some kind of role models right like. The people your friends and family you're going to give you push back against. You know taking a gap year traveling starting your own company whatever you want to do they're going to do it because they are going to. They imagine that you're going to be the kids sitting at home eating nachos on the couch for year. Don't give them that opportunity. Shift their frame of reference by showing them somebody who has done something similar to what you WanNa do digging a similar path find that person and use them not just as a role model for yourself but as a model for other people to see. Maimi this is this is what you know. Johnny can turn out to be rather than being cheetos dude sitting at home eating cheetos on the couch for. She does our Nachos some kind of snack that ends knows. Yes. Yeah, that's brilliant. A voice. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Yeah. Just find somebody a mentor seems so important somebody that's trodden the path such as yourself and and all the people that practice it seems to me now will be definitely only four years in such amazing stories coming from they're gone imagine how big that's going to be in another four. So yes, thank you so much. It's been very positive very inspirational talk today if people want to get touch of, you will find out more of your writings, where can they find them? Are they should go to Zack Z. A. K. sleigh back, DOT COM and they should join my email list I e mail that email list regularly with some my best content, and that's how you can actually get in touch with me directly I read every email reply and I try to reply to every email that calls for reply. Yeah I can definitely vouch that. Yes. Thank you so much can. Yeah. Keep up the good work and. Hopefully speak again soon perhaps with more news on the sleigh back grants. Now hopefully, thanks so much. Thank you take. I hope you've got as much of that talk as I did an excellent introduction to where we are now and where we could be. Please, check your inbox. We'll be back in touch very shortly for much more inspiration few to start your journey into home schooling child led learning and liberty. If you have any families looking for alternatives school, please give them our information homeschooling and liberty dot com and they are more than welcome to join us on this journey. We'll see you real soon chase. You this beckoning now. Calling us with as you saw on gotTA. Asked to say. God you a law. WHO got up? Every time. She will catch you and you fall. got. A winning. GotTa take the power. Ask yourself this question what is so amazing one guy a government run schools you would send your children. To be taught by essentially strangers a curriculum over which you have no authority or control. How would you like to be a part of your children's learning? You were part of your children's learning is colors how she ties her shoes what is a butterfly? Why Mommy loves her? Why would you not want to continue to be a part of that? Book at what you've been told for so long that you'd have to say, well, maybe maybe they're not right and maybe your instincts are right unlearn those things. This is about human rights and endowing children with dignity and agency and autonomy. and. Then guess what as a side benefit it works

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EP 106  ELT  Peggy Ployhar  SPED Homeschool Resources

Make the Grade with Dr. Steven Greene

43:08 min | 4 months ago

EP 106 ELT Peggy Ployhar SPED Homeschool Resources

"Welcome to make the grade with the success. Dr steven green. You'll discover actionable strategies to help your student to reach their academic goals to excel at standardized testing into planned for the college admissions process painlessly. And now here's your host. Dr steven green right. Everybody steve green jerk my guest. Welcome education i realize and had to go back and this is the thirteenth education life thursday since we started to be very regular with thirteen. Lucky thirteen peggy about that number dome it then just a couple of things before we get into autism and be very important discussion and let me just. I always forget to say this so if you are watching this listen to this on some sort of life she made you wanna make comments and it no ronald shapiro knows how to do it. Hello ron welcome back. You need to click on a link that basically says i'm here and it's it's within stream says i get it. I think you are slash facebook or something. I probably really should know the link. Anyway let me tell you what's going on makes a great world really really quickly number one very busy time. You're tutoring busy. School is still on this virtual hybrid semi hybrid. Sort of funk. But there's still plenty of work to be done. A lot of students working very hard. I appreciate the effort. They're making willed. Underbody this midterm month. So let's really buckle down focus. Finish this quarter this semester. Strongly if you need help with anything. Mass science all chat. You know where to get the help reach out. I'm here for you number. two we are coming into. The spring is usually notice the spring test prep season even the summer in the winter. Att sat's back on track. Mostly have not heard anything yet about any being postponed or cancelled that nasty stuff. So if your junior or senior if you haven't taken enough. Got buckled down. Get focused getty plant and again. I can help you with all this. Take advantage of the ameliorate on-demand problem sound service. I don't talk that much on here. But i came with this new deal. You got a problem. You want answered. Take a picture of it. Send it to me about that Pretty cool kind of homework help on steroids and finally i decided by popular demand. A lot of popular demand is what happens in my life to offer class on how to teach online. So if there's anybody out there who wants to be a tutor is the world's best job the world's best shop incredible career. I would offer some workshops on how to do it but it's also for people that want to learn to instruct virtually tutoring. Don't think beyond the academic box here. Okay so if you been able to do it are you wanna do it. Not comments email being sent me a carrier pigeon cannon string whatever we got going yeah and education thursday live every week. Mike guest this week. And i be i forget how he actually met peggy. But but we'll get into that you can remind me in my age but really really interesting person. I think you ruger enjoy our perspective. Her depth of knowledge tremendous. I'm really happy to have here Taking are right Jeez a special ed. Homeschool founder sped home school foundation founder. Ceo a leader in special education homeschooling community and frequent writer and speaker on specialize educational. Twenty issues keeping yourself busy past. Thank you were physicist. Yes yes yeah. We got him. Show love to a high paying gig medical device industry to teach her kids at home. And you got that. Because that's the most important thing right. Obviously money is important but family first and on that really got her excited about home schooling so in two thousand seventeen she founded this organization and has been your life's work ever since right for a decade and a half but yeah a lot less than three years. We've but the best part about this. I think is she also like like yours truly the host of a popular podcast and broadcast so we are kind of kindred spirits. Here sorta i gotta ask you the transition in this was this is off script. I know the transition from physicists Know probably a heavy duty very technical job. We work with some real brainiac kind of people. I think it's going to stay at home. It's real children. Who at the time. How old that well. My oldest was in kindergarten and steps. So then i had a three year old and i had my daughter yet at that point. So it's this is a pretty big transition. it was difficult. I expected my kids that they'd listen to me. Like everybody in the boardroom would didn't happen newsflash. Yeah exactly headaches. Fifty year olds. Incredible hulk so okay. Let's do this. You've been doing this some amount of time. We never of people. It's all about experience but So what really made you want to start was being motivated by working with. Your kids was at the connection. Well it was. My oldest is diagnosis on the autism spectrum. Look the school kept. He kept thinking in the principal's office every day. And i said well. This isn't working. Well is it. And fortunately i had a very very caring principal that sat me down and she said i think you just really need to get him tested. We had no idea what was going on with him. He's just he's extremely brilliant but just couldn't fit in socially and and so at that point he was he was just so depressed he adult so much bullying even private school where we thought he was at least a little bit more protected kindergartner gardiner. Yeah exactly yeah he just kept saying i just wanna die and at that point you ask this. This has to be my choice you know. There's there's no other thi- my kids important. You know the funny thing is now. He's turning twenty four in a couple of months and he followed my footsteps and got a degree in biomedical engineering cell. The medical device in history. So votes sure like as a family you took like a eighteen year pause see right income three children do and i'm gonna guess 'cause i my kids they're all different different personalities. Different impact and you home schooled. Each of them going one. What will you need me or the methodologies. You had us with three separate and not spread tremendously. But you couldn't share to needs kit exactly so i didn't being the physicist i am. I didn't experiment when we started home. Schooling i said what what's going to work with. Yeah exactly what's going to work with my kids. And at that point there weren't a whole lot of teaching methodologies being used in the home school environment it was just basically textbooks unit study or literature based and now there's people talking about schooling. which kind of is what. i'm lee more to eventually but But try to each out on my kids and said we're going to pick the same time period and we're gonna try out the textbook version. We're going to try out the literature based version and we're gonna try the unit study version and we were kind of studying around the eighteen hundreds of sailing and pirates and all those things and textbooks did not work very well at all that was quickly thrown out the window and the literature. My kids didn't sit still very well. Either much better than the textbooks but when we got to the the unit study. And i said okay. Here's twenty feet or rope. We learn all the different nights we have now. You can time me up since your pirates as long as us right right. Not so we kinda stuck with it actually. My oldest did unit studies all the way through high school and then slid right into college from there actually went to welding school. First and then. After swelling license went to college but Yeah i think you had some days you might wear pull your hair out but net worth. I mean was this to be rewarded with it so long it was. I mean it became a lifestyle for us which a lot of families will tell you if they do it long enough. You're just get up and go. Well that's what we do. We do school at home and you know we did a lot of subjects together but i did have diverse learners like you were saying earlier and so i did a had to do a lot of one on one work with each of them to to make sure that i was meeting their unique needs. And so that took a little bit of planning and But you know they got used to that too as part of the schedule so talk to the parents out there right now. Two thousand and twenty one. There's a lot more people with home based learning isn't necessarily saints home schooling right because they made hone with a kitchen table where their desk in their bedroom staring at a screen being active bytes teachers But but for the people be more interested in the actual talk about some logistics. You know you need to play it. You can't just wake up and willingness. It's it might work one day but it's not gonna work over a year so what needs to happen. What are the structural logistics. That you can say hey parents if you want to get into this deeply. Here's what you're going to need could talk talk from extreme. Well i worked for two different state organizations before. I formed my nonprofit and a lot of what i counsel parents about was of course the law and homeschooling laws are different in every state and so whatever state you live in if you're gonna choose parent directed home education which is kind of different than the school directed home education because public schools will do schooling in your home but when you choose to cut that tie and direct at yourself. There are laws in each state. They're different so a lot of people will go online and say well. What do i have to do to home school. And they're talking to somebody in california and they live in minnesota It's not the same so so you have to make sure that that you know what your laws are and that you're following those some some require reporting some. Don't some require testing some. don't it's just completely up to the state to set those laws so so that's important and some of them even have required subjects so there goes into. What do i teach. And are we fulfilling that on a yearly basis and then do do we have to build in some sort of measurement device or a portfolio thickets. Turn in for a child. So so you're going to base some of your home schooling on that. But what i was told parents to is. You have the freedom to do things that the public school in private schools. Don't because you have that one on one ability to work with each child and so like for my oldest. I knew he loved build so we did mechanical engineering. When he was in fifth grade. That was just something he loved and my middle child is just creative. Whenever we did a unit study he would make all the costumes so that we could act out. Whatever we were doing and my my daughter's and artist and so a lot of times when she had a writing assignment. I had her draw the pitcher to go next to what she was writing. Because you're building on those those things that they're good at and in it doesn't surprise me that each of them past that were very similar to the things that i encouraged because i i saw them coming out over and over again and you get to know your children. Well when you're with them that long no in your particular kidneys on. I guess would be your husband. Was he involved in. This is what or were you talk for me. Yeah yeah no he. He works long hours and sometimes even in the evenings so teaching was primarily mine but he did allow me some weekends to get away to do some planning for the here. Tell me about tell me about your out your foundation or you're not profit it's sped home. School is the name of it stands for specialized education homeschool so and so we help parents just to. There's no one curriculum that works well for a child with any diagnosis and special needs and he struggled. And it's hard to tell a parent. That and so what i found when i was doing a lot of consulting for the different state organizations of in the same questions over and over again and we wanted to make sure that we had static pages on our website that answered all of those questions so like you can go and to getting started. You can find your state law links you can. You can do all those things. I even have a whole webinar and how to get started home schooling. And even if you don't have a child that struggles it's very applicable and then we have a whole page on homeschooling high school and and so but we also partner with live organizations that offer services and curriculum and other things that are very adaptable for kids. Who have learning differences. And so we're clearly at least in part or resource. Yes yes we we kind of vet organizations and then we've we create partnerships with them and put them on our website and so our goal to train parents and also to get parents the resources that they're looking for so they're not spending so much time on the internet to the great dot net on your page. I don't think so yeah. i think you're going to have. Yes let me. Let me put this on the screen if you are out there in Listener land and you wanna comment or answer your question to stay. You gotta go to this linked kinda get approved so to speak. Thank you ron No comments yes okay So let's let's go to sort of just the parent child level. What would what's your fondest memory. Or i have a whole storehouse of but we are just saying. I'm so thankful that made this decision. Or maybe on the flip side. It's like with the Whatever the cyclotron it is there a highlight that really you know or or a couple that you want to shares kind of these motivational assure. I'll start out with one that the happened kind of when my kids were younger. And i think it really reinforced for me. How powerful home education could be the unit study that was using we were. We're covering russia and so we did a whole. I think maybe multiple years where we just focused on culture and we made the food we did arts and crafts we. You know the whole nesting dolls everything but also we talked about politics. We talked about government systems. We talk about history and There were two really Impactful experiences that my kids had as part of those studies. One was a lunch. I sat down and i had all this mortgage word for my kids and i said you put on your plate's whatever you want and And so they loaded their plates up with treats that normally didn't come into our house and then they sat down at the table. And i said i m mother russia give me your plates and redistributed. The wealth and they didn't think that was so fun anymore. They actually cried. And you asked my kids what communism is and they will. I mean they understand it much better now than just that that experience at the table but it was was an emotional experience for them as to how this impacts people and another experience was. We didn't just read history. My kids sometimes acted it out. Like i said my middle child loved making costumes and so we were studying world war one and world war two and one of the things that happened because the the russian government was so poor They could not buy guns for world war two. They actually told their soldiers to go into the fields. Where the battles that happened in world war one and pulled them off the dead bodies. So they could refurbish giants. Yeah they were because they were so it was a kolden tundra area. The guns were so so my kids reenacted that and as they were doing it. I remember my middle son looking up and he goes. This is really gross but we read it in a textbook. I don't think it would have had the impact. Oriole teams Exactly wrong is great is a great story. No borst for you. I thought wow well okay. Let let me guess you question. Actually by the way education. Thursday peggy plyler ply har- here long history home school in special education bigwig in your foundation resource. Okay all right in a minute but I think what we're starting to see is sort of a kind of the polarization for a long time and that may not be the best towards conditional school home school. they really didn't cross very much You're starting to get a lot more of across pollenisation classically home or starting to be used a little bit. In the being stream of mainstream things curriculum at least in pennsylvania is mirroring the school. You know you're not gonna get the redistribution of launch on curriculum. But how do you feel about that. Trend is that something you additional where you stand on it. I think it is good because people are seeing that education has other options. You know we've always thought as black and white as these homes crazy home schoolers over here and you know. And then these these people that send their kids to school And so but it really there. There's been such a million meshing and and even crossover as we see that more kids have more free time. They are doing unsettling whether we you know planet or not. They're they're learning on their own more than they were when they were in the schools because they have this extra time and so they're learning at home. They're they're basically unsettling when they're not on their computer you know what's interesting is fairly or unfairly one of the big knocks on homeschooling always. Was that the children could lack the socialization. We get in school right in school private school. That was fair writer on fair on share. That was always one of the things that people say. Oh you home school kid yeah you they get to go to the museum to learn about dinosaurs and mike book but mike. It's much better can be more well adjusted socially. That's something he worries about. And you're not really or experiences resource. We haven't gotten that question. In the last year specially but but we find that our kids are much better to address an adult and a child younger than than who they are and interact with much different Different age levels and my kids the same way you know. When we went to the county fair my kids would be talking to the vendors and they would be helping out with the younger kids because we had three foster kids for a while and you know they just got used to that. I don't just have to associate with people. Were the same age as me and and that just became the norm like we had two other families that we shared on schooling with once a week and we mixed all the kids together. That's because we only two to three kids each graciela before odds cool yes exactly question from the audience. Let's see if we anyone address us how well prepared were year students. I presume ron is referring to your children. College versus students who came from elite private schools prep schools public schools for. How do you feel about this. You know it's funny. My oldest didn't want to go to college. He told me that he was very adamant about that. We did unit studies but And he didn't actually learn to retail twelve. The funny thing was that we tested in minnesota and so the next year. He took the test at age thirteen. He actually was reading at a college level within one year span. He actually league graduated cum laude from university of houston in biomedical engineering. He he had a really hard time dealing with some of the students who were typically schooled because he felt that they just weren't in it they weren't investing he had when the signed projects he ended up usually doing all the project himself because nobody just really felt like it was that important. My kids take learning personally because it has been a personal thing in our family. It's something we've shared. It's not just something we do. And i think that makes a huge difference in how a lot of homeschool students approach college. I know i've heard the same thing from College professors to the most of our rather shocked that home schoolers were home school their life. What school did you come from that. You are so different But that's why they are. Different is because they learned to research like my daughter at sixteen. She's been majority of school in her own already. She's just very self motivated. Is there Do you think. I mean obviously this very hypothetical but do you feel if the children had or even want to go on to mainstream school and i don't think you are knocking school. Oh in any level but do you think they would Say this ended up differently or just maybe different priorities in life. Obviously for this into yourself. There was a family culture of education as a priority. You can't the kids enough freedom to orbit still kind of cracking the whip. At least some degree rupture. Did you ever look back and think maybe would have done it differently. I'm fascinated by evidence that you put into this to my my middle one. I struggled a lot because he he basically took over his education about fifteen. He said he wasn't going to do what i wanted to do. And i said well. We have to follow the laws. So how are you going to get these subjects in the state of texas where we live. There's specific subjects. He has to take and so he gave me a plan. He said this is what i'm going to learn and how i'm going to learn it and this is how great me and what game and it worked and so that's what we did. I looking back. I think the thing that would we would have lost. The most is the closeness of our family. Just because we would have been so busy and that you know home schoolers can get busy too. And i have to state that is. I know a lot of homeschool families that run their children into the ground with activities just as much as if their child was going to public school. We chose not to do that. We actually went and lived on a farm for five years in the middle of nowhere and just learned a of different things out to take care of cows and chickens and milk cows and crazy stuff but but the relationship. I have with my kids now that my boys are in their twenties and they want to be home. They want to sit in visit with us. That they both are still living here and working and we like that. They haven't. They haven't decided that they want to break out and do anything different. So in your opinion it's beat the easiest question to answer but Do you feel that your children appreciate all the effort that you put in your next this point my kids all do. My daughter does way before my voice did does because she's a girl and we have a close relationship already but But i i think so. I you know i. My daughter has told me many times about just the struggles that her friends had in. My daughter's also on the autism spectrum of my kids are slightly on the autism spectrum. I guess i would say. I've never had the younger to diagnosed But they have friends that struggle with with sensory issues and being allowed places and in just needing some of those breaks and they see that they can take those when they're at home where there then. The friends that they have that are in public schools. Have a really hard time coping with those things. Were things i hear. I i work with a lot of families especially ones that kids in private schools were around. Ryan was very costly college tuition kind of cost and afford that often. You got to pretty high powered. Parents make bringing home nice paychecks. But at the cost of work long hours or being traveling or often have. I don't say they choose not to but just the reality is. They don't have particularly close with their kids and they don't get along. It's just that they aren't just the sheer amount of time. They have to spend together. You have to spend time to appreciate what i'm doing what i'm paying school. They don't care. I i grew up. I was walking both ways uphill the school yang cliches byrant. You know that. And i haven't gotten to really know my parents until probably my mid forties interesting one more question for you. What would you say is there an age. That is the best place to start a home. Homeschooling like if you have accused in traditional school for certain amount on is there. Do you pull them out then. Home schooled you home. School didn't put them into school. Is is better to start young. And that's just the way that they know it here in opinion about this. You know i think for every child is going to be different I'd say probably not starting their first year of high school. That's i think any any other age. It's it's good as the closer you get to high school. As a closer to creating a transcript. The closer you get to to having to work on different our ally. Some states require report cards. But not many but when you have a transcript you're recording grades to so there's a lot of other logistics that come into play when you home school high school so Diving in at that age is really difficult not impossible but difficult at the younger ages. You can just play and the more you get to know your child. And what they like went feeds them. What insp you know motivates them to want to learn and you can use learning as a motivator. I'm sure you know that stephen instead. Kids some kids just the they are so interested in a subject that they consider that play And so to be able to do that and to have that time then it snowballs as you home school longer because that's kind of what happened with my daughter. Yes exactly. I know she just she just finished college algebra today. We and on of great well. She has enough credits to graduate already. I'm just not graduating. Her shoe sixteen sixteen. She started junior older senior. Yeah a year and a half two years ahead. Yeah she standard yeah she. She's taking fashion design class downtown at one of the the fashion schools and and then she just designed parachute mass marketed across the world. That's actually a company in switzerland. Picked her so yeah. The one less lewis station break your education life thursday. I am fascinated by this discussion on your experience. It's just incredible it. It seems to me that it was a great experience for you. And i hope the message is coming across to listeners. Here is if you do this right. And you have the right resources and you have the right tools and the right relationship with richard miskin. This be like a joyous thing. Maybe that's too strong a word but but it doesn't not to be a labor right does not to be chore all off. Gotta teach my kid today. That's not want want this really sort of beneficial sort of experience. With obviously the kids need to learn the parents get you obviously got a lot of of fulfillment out of this as well to the whole nonprofit to help other people in the same circumstance. We're every thursday. Education live my guess next week. If you remember way back way back to the back to school. Virtual workshop festival september tenth guess was katie. Cape may runs a centers in the city. Here philadelphia here to help teens. She's going to be on next week. Following weekend myers apex ownership academy. We've got some good people coming up if you or someone you know or maybe peggy wants to come back and we'll be against in case live. We've a very rigorous boli be very very rigorous screening process. But it starts with. Send me an email or a message or commenting. And i'll have my people get in touch with you Just you know sort of free free flow here any message. You want to people. I mean i i presume. You're an advocate of home schooling. Who's on the fence should we. Should we not do in. Should i should. I make decisions for my child should i. How much input your gift for. My child obviously teach dependent. But what do you think. yeah in all. It's the one thing. I hear from a lot of parents while i'm just not like you and a half to remind them. I wasn't like me when i started either. I have changed a lot i. I was dealing with depression as much as my son was and it was. We were not in a good place but sometimes we need to break the cycles that are happening in our lives and by making a choice to step out of the chaos and take some time and also you don't decide to home school for eighteen years the first year you start decided to do it for one year. And then you re evaluate and you if it's good for the next year and And so it's not this this lifelong commitment that you're making the parents who are watching the kids sitting in front of a computer for five and a half hours a day. Whatever seven hours a day basically saying learning but they're not getting instruction in a school environment. That's a fair comment and it's not so if the disrespect the teacher but thinking gee maybe i would have been better off if i had homeschool. Maybe better off took him out of school. This year is what. What's your opinion about that. You can teach one one child in ten to fifteen minutes the same thing they do on the computer an hour. Probably the tutoring world right. Because one on one isn't teaching and And then your children can play and they can learn things that they want to learn. You know an explorer and and so if you consider the time you're trading that it has to be a family decision though you know it's if if this is working better because you're working from home Then then make that work but but if you're feeling like this just really isn't working and but i just don't know if i have the time again five to ten minutes maybe fifteen if they're they're older but it's it's amazing how much you can teach in the classroom. They're they're sharing information that repeating it. Kids are interrupting in all. These other things are happening. What's what's what do you got going on this year. Any exciting this we rebranded all of our our my podcast and bragg creek cast iron. Learn about your podcast. It'd be too. Yeah we're empowering homeschool conversations some basically find us any podcast streaming channel. That's out there. But if you go to our website at sped homeschool sp homeschool dot com. You'll find links for all that an upcoming episode. So this month we've been focusing on teaching methodologies and so the first week i interviewed dr peter gray from free to learn that book and then last week we this week we talked about charlotte mason method. And we're attacked but a couple different teaching methodologies that home schoolers us in the next month. We're gonna dive into iep's. Ps which a lot of people don't know that home schoolers can right so we're gonna go through some. How do you write an p. How do you set goals. How do you work with your your child's therapist to work on goals together And so so. We do a different theme every month. We take on your pockets. We're blessed it was not november. Yes that's one of these. I wanted to hear. I really enjoyed that conversation. Anything else. you had an event coming up or anything. I'm speaking a lot of places we'll see if it happens. I mean i think it was on like three virtual conferences alone this week so i know it's thursday but that that can't that's not permanent enough. I think to room with thirty people are you. I'm in houston texas yup south. Dan's but yeah. I'm booked speak in las vegas on april. A couple of places in texas in may then isla and arizona this summer so yeah well this is either keep me in the will share with why folks hagi. I really wanna thank you for taking the time at your schedule and sharing you know some really practical information personal information. It's great steve. Green from the grade. Education lives thursday every week again next week became a and she's a wealth of information very different topic but if you buy teenager teenager he d. Peggy is good for you. She works routines exclusively helping with coping. Mechanism self What was the least what you think about. Self awareness body image. That sort of thing Really talented just opened. Another center is expanding. So i'm looking forward to having her back Master one last question. I ask everybody this nowadays Do you think and this is kind of a serious question. That pressured asked us before. They're clearly been changes in our society and our education system in six eight ten months right. Not all bad. I'm not. I'm strictly limits to school education. I'm not talking anything else in society. What do you think's going to stick. What do you think some good back. You think is anything you're doing differently now because of covid that you you think everybody will continue to do Is there anything once. We get normalized. It gets vaccinated. Just go back to the same old thing. we'll guinea. Gimme report on that. I hope that families will spend more time together You know we almost felt like it was like a forced concentration camp in your home. Yeah and so but to you know to not think of it that way and into instead appreciate those times we have. I know. I struggled with cancer last year. It reset my whole thinking as i looked at my time with my family is very precious. Because i didn't know if i was gonna make it through and You know just a lot of people with a lot of health conditions this year Just resetting What's important and can we keep those priorities. The same as we have when we were forced to sort here you okay. Now i'm in remission. I actually treated it completely natural. There's than some surgeries but yeah. It's not being in the hospital when you have to get cova tests every time you go. I had three. Because i've been around people that thought they were exposed the whole tracing thing. That's not feels weird already. I i could go on another a couple of hours. We are up against it. I wanna thank you really appreciate you coming on sharing with include questions. Please reach out. You know anybody who's thinking about home. Schooling is home. Schooling wants to homeschool used to home school. Try to homeschool chants bell home school. You got really resource. The best resource in the country. Got on here tonight. So we're going to wrap it up here. Steve educational is thursday. Thank you again. Peggy lawyer got it right. I think tom appreciate it. We'll be in touch. Hopefully i'll be back on again and let's get the music on and we are before we even do that. But it became for peg. The studio audience got two people in the cd of your music wrapping up. Thanks again everybody next win and look for her. I canceled from and reach out if you need some help. You've been listening to make the grade with the success. Dr steven green. If you enjoyed this episode. We shared a subscribe for more resources and support. Please visit make the grade dot net.

Dr steven green autism ronald shapiro Hello ron peggy sped home school foundation steve green russian government borst peggy plyler mike book gardiner minnesota Homeschool russia ron headaches byrant sailing
Life is the curriculum, trust, choice, responsibility and accomplishment are the values

The Homeschooling and Liberty Podcast

33:23 min | 8 months ago

Life is the curriculum, trust, choice, responsibility and accomplishment are the values

"Hello, good morning. And welcome. My name is Graham and I'm delighted to be with your today as we start these Journeys into our skiing what it is to be really free free from constraints and come back, T free from constant testing and peer pressure and free from unsafe and uninspiring school environments. Where you let children explore the world around and through play cooperation and inspiration free to let children learn naturally following their innate curiosity and then does creativity come to see that learning isn't about doing well at school. It's about engaging with life with you and I will serve you and I woke up carrying you message around lighted to have with us today a very special guest who's going to take us through the Sudbury School model for anyone out there looking for alternate choice is a fascinating Avenue to explore the subject schools for anyone not aware. It's where life is the curriculum children learning to read without being taught every student free to choose how they spend their money. No compulsory classes absolutely no exams and every student has a vote on how the school operates and does sound fantastic to me the suburbs philosophy acknowledges what research shows wage. The people learn best when motivation comes from within rather than from an external Source, whether it be parent teacher or national curriculum and Jeff is going to take us through this today. He is founding member of the Hudson Valley Sudbury School his backgrounds in computers where you work for over 30 years after graduating from Cornell, but back in 2003 his life took a slight Edge and when he and his wife were looking for suitable school for their three year old and he realized quickly that there was known no suitable option that was inspiring him in his area. So he after a walk in Civ amount of research into the Sudbury Valley School found out this is exactly what he was looking for and he went on and actually set up the school. So we're delighted to have him with us today. How long Mister Collins very good very good. And that was a great introduction to the Sudbury model really excellent. By the way does seem extremely Innovative and some in the signs sure all the kids get a lot out of just going back. We are star guests wage. Back to their school days and how they see that now and what they find useful and any positives or negatives from their General overall schooling experience. All my schooling was very traditional with typical public-school. We we fairly small school though. So I think that has advantages over from the larger public schools that we have what I found there and bought a part of the reason that I realized. I didn't want the same thing. My daughter was I was often very bored because I was able to go much faster than the general pace of the classroom and I found myself really not having put a lot of effort into it and resulting in the, you know, pretty much my time essentially in classroom being bored and waiting for things to to move faster. And another thing that happened to me was you know, as a high school student it became really clear to me that my thoughts and opinions didn't really matter what really matters job. was whether or not I could accurately Echo what my teachers were telling me that Echo, so An example of that is when I was doing a paper on Shakespeare comparing Shakespeare plays. I had some thoughts about original and not necessarily, you know, not necessarily A Break 6. But the fact that I couldn't really express my thoughts or ideas in the paper and going to be some marks was indicative to me that they don't want me to think I don't my question is want me to repeat back exactly what they tell me and that wasn't what I wanted either. So that was kind of a turning point when it realized that you know, what took more to education than just what we're getting now, so You know, I look back on that incident when I was deciding what I wanted my daughter and I didn't want that can't that that's part of the rationale for looking for something new. Right? So you'll Journey off much was inspired by your your daughter becoming school age. Did you look at any other Alternatives apart from the Sudbury? We did you looked at the typical one to let the world or for the Montessori and those, you know, nothing wrong with those but it just wasn't are fit for us. They seem very obstinate in their approach and philosophy. It's they're both created a long time ago and haven't really changed much since then and they didn't seem to reflect the continuing Evolution that we as a people are going to they don't mean that as a criticism. It's just that's my observation. Right? Right. Sounds like you have researched this very thoroughly. I mean feel you be excellent person to ask if you if you can suggest anywhere for people to start to understand this philosophy. It might sound strange the Democratic school. Once you're going to get into that in a minute. That's just where where's a good place for parents to start the might be looking for Alternatives? Well, they can check out our website which is separate school.com. There's a bunch of papers and blogs and articles on that. They could almost anything ever written by dead. Professor Peter gray who is an incredible advocate for Democratic education including Sudbury School model. He talks a lot about play and how long is incredibly valuable human beings but undervalued and under used in public education and to check out the Sudbury Valley web app, which is the original cyber school that said well. Org and there are numerous numerous Publications on Sudbury model there a little bit hard to talk to some of them are fairly old. But if you search on any book selling web site, you can probably find something to type inside very very Valley model or Sudbury model. That's great. Yeah. I've had a look at the website as a whole host of articles there to get get interested in and how did the actual formation of the school come about did you was it always something you thought? Possible. I mean it sounds like a huge undertaking to start your own school too. So if you could take us through you know, how is it born and as it changed over time and what are your sort of current goals for the school? So it was you know, I didn't grow up things against part of school that that would be a little naive I but there was a time I thought it was three and there's just nothing out there and you know, fortunately my wife and I had the resources to be able to undertake something of this size and magnitude and so long with those those resources that we happen to have because you know, it's really successful in the tech world. We just set out and do it and started and we had no idea what it involves Thursday. We had the first do research of what it takes to start a private school in the state of New York in each stage different. So, you know, we found you know on a website how to do that in New Jersey. What the process was we talked to her friends or neighbors or parents of children that are. You know that our daughter new and socialized with track them interest somewhere most warrants eventually. We got a we set up a meeting in our town in Woodstock New York and invited the public put an ad in the paper saying please come find out about a new alternative school starting in New York starting in Woodstock without any more detail in that we didn't tell them what the school is about to you know, philosophy was in the ad. We just wanted to get them there. Right and we had over a hundred and fifty people show up to find out about this unknown school. They're going to start in Woodstock and to me what that image is such a a lack of Options and such a need for different options in such a desire for something something totally completely different that that many people would show up and you know, of course when we describe the school, you know, some people wanted that kind of philosophy of education some didn't so only wanted to to look upon his group and we ended up with about wage fifteen people working on it. We had someone from NYU education department call us up. She was getting her degree as an undergrad undergrad. She joined a Founders group home cuz it's something that they really want. So from that point on it took about Three years. The biggest challenge is getting a building frankly. There's State codes local codes. We ended up having to build a building a committed, you know satisfactory for us and that process was what took the longest was getting the building actually built and the design of that is intended. I should be like a large house instead of like a school cuz we want a feeling within the school of community of family of social structure. That is Natural instead of forced so, you know, we have a stroke. So it looks like a like I said like a house instead of like the school building and then in 2004. We open up the school. It was in June June fourteenth two thousand four and we opened up for this two weeks. It was the end of the school year. We open that date cuz that was the date. We got the building permit for the you know wage occupancy permit and those two weeks. We have 25 kids and then we open in the fall and we had about thirty five kids. We both kind of stay between 35 and 45 for a few years and then we started to grow our about 65 to 75 kids. Wow. Okay, as far as what we see into the future that you know, we want to continue expanding this model not just in our local school, but more globally, you know, we see such a demand in Need for suck. Different again stuff for everybody, but at least it's an option for people who want to enable their kids to be in a school where they get to choose what they do. They get to have the trust of the staff and the people around them that they can accomplish what they need to accomplish without being coerced and that's you know, that's really our long-term goal is to create this understanding this kind of model Works to make it available for people that want that and to make it part of the mainstream conversation of Education, which it isn't dead. That seems to be the thing that is yeah, the biggest takeaways the people have gone through the school system and how confident and creative and self-reliant. They are these schools. Definitely a now proving after this. Is it thirty years? They've been around now we yeah, they've been around since nineteen sixty-eight was the initial found in school. So it's 50,000 years almost. Yeah. Yeah. I mean just for any parents listening out there they might think well, there's no rules to how does any learning get done. What what is the most common misconceptions you I'm sure you had the same things pretty much about such freedoms or lack of rules. What would you say to parents concerned with those? Well, I think there's a couple different ways to answer that one is definitely rules. There are definitely rules of behavior in any Sudbury school. There are laws. In fact, we have, you know, written law book saying what rules of behavior are within the school. And those are enforced by the school itself. They're not so it's not like you, do ever you want to do it doesn't matter. No one's going to care what you do. That's not at all what it's like off the difference though is that our laws are actually written down so that you know exactly what the laws are and because it's a democracy the kids are part of creating modifying am moving changing those laws the part of the process that goes into making the laws instead of just being subject subjected to the laws. So if you want to really involve someone with understanding what the behavior needs to be the best way to do that is to have a conversation and to engage them in making your own laws. So that's the real difference between Palm. Can you come you go into a school where you're told what to do versus you go into a school where it gives the federal laws are currently exist and you have the rights to make a motion wage. Changed a lot. And if you can argue that the law should be changed effectively. You get the votes the laws changed, right? So that's that takes ownership over the laws or rules. Once anyone has ownership to feel more responsible than respect those laws more. So the laws are obvious allows you typical like no hitting anybody. No bull. No no abusive language that kind of stuff found two really small ones. Like you must pick up after yourself. I mean that's that's pretty important in a community where people have to have to live eight hours a good, you know, when to pick up after themselves, so it's kind of things are typical standard laws and Sudbury school they're enforced and they're enforced by a committee of people includes primarily students and then one staff member on the staff member changes, so it doesn't it's not like the staff members in charge of the students actually charge of it. The staff member is a spirit represents dead. Their point of view there's no again. There's no veto power just happened doesn't have control over what happens there. Just a member of the community and has a member of the community or part of the justice system. I'm just going to say the system is run by students. They decide you know, what happens investigate whenever something says there were some reports saying that they think when they have broken the law, they investigate that report to find out what really happens what really happens they see if any laws are actually broken and if they're not sure they say Hey, you know, you broke a law, do you plead guilty or not guilty and typically the student pleads guilty. And by the way staff can be charged to and once they played in a sentence which corresponds to basically what they did. So for example, if someone littered like if I left my coffee cup lying around I could be charged a littering I would probably I definitely feel guilty cuz I'm sure I left my coffee cup around all the time and I'd give a sentence typically of of cleaning. I think that the garbage get related to what we what the what the what the law was that got broken. So again, it's not, you know, it's not crazy kids all over the place running around and its people in a social construct understanding what it takes to make with a group of people who live together work together and always together be able to manage their environment. Well, it's really a kind of a laboratory for creating a social. Social grouping would like to refer to it as our little village. Right? Right. That's one of the biggest things I took away from from the the research. I did on your on your webpage the the the emphasis on responsibility. It seems you're really creating such self-reliant and responsible children. I mean, it seems so such a massive shift away from the public school model. I mean, do you see any change options available for the public school model or is it something that just needs to be kind of money put back into history as something that was tried and now we've we've moved on and definitely through the Sudbury Valley model you can see there are much more creative ways of making children have opportunities to find their passions. Yeah, but the first thing I want to do is I want to distinguish between Public School modeling and the public school. The model of the education we kind of conflate the two when we say public school. And I mean we think of you know, what we experienced the public school model and United States, which is a compulsory education compulsory curriculum that we could is separated by age separated by grade level and have to take tests order to proceed along the hierarchy of grade levels. That's the model of Education. The public part is the financing of the education and those really two separate things. I like to keep them separate. So when I talk about you know what I think of a public school, there's this one is publicly financed but to it's a compulsory educational system. I love the public idea. I love the idea of public financing of Education. It's really important that we have that I don't loan no idea of compulsory education. So if we can have a public model publicly-funded model where there isn't compulsory education, that would be my preference now getting away from compulsory wage. Patient is a very challenging thing for us to do socially cuz we're so sold on the idea that the only way to educate children has been part of our culture for over 50 years. But if we look back and look at why we have this kind of educational system. And again, it's only a hundred fifty years. It's not what we had two hundred years ago. No not home educated two hundred years ago. It's it's relatively new in history of humankind and its it was put in place around the 1850s people probably know this to do some research and find out it's been placed around the 1850s. It was built on a Model was first developed in Prussia. The reason the prussians developed. It was a lost the franco-prussian war and they couldn't understand why they lost home or to the French. I don't you know, I think in Spanish, but question software much better fighters in the French War. They could have send why they lost The realize that they lost because their soldiers were not adequately taking orders from their commanders. They didn't have the accurate structure. So they build schools public schools are better trained soldiers then during our Industrial Revolution. We needed Factory workers. We had a bunch of farmers. We weren't very Society were mostly Farmers off. We had to come up with a way to take these Farmers out of the fields and put them in the factories. If you think about the life of a farmer versus like effects or cuz they're very different with a farmer every day. You're out every day you're moving around every day, you're doing things that are creative and engaging and things that you know are life-affirming you're growing things the factory worker. It's almost the exact opposite of that you inside all day long, you're sitting at the same station every day the same thing over and over and over again, which way the train people to come from the farm to go to the factory worker and yep. is not an easy training so, you know, the industrialists in the late eighteen hundreds came up with papers just crush and model just bring it to the US and they did in our educational model has not changed since that time if you think about it, our school is like a factory work, you know, you come in you sit down the same thing pretty much over and over again be told what to do you follow instructions you have little autonomy and you have to just move from one thing to the next whether you want to or not dead and it's a perfect model to teach people how to be Factory workers, but what's changed and what is so much Upset and why it's not working is we no longer need Factory workers. We've changed a model of our economy has totally changed Factor working is going away and it's becoming a more creative Society Society where we need people to be able to think for themselves to innovate to self-motivate back to persist when they come across problems along the way and do this all without someone overseeing what they're doing. That's again, that's like what degree in society was and fifty years ago, but we treat teaching Factory workers not we're training people to factory workers not innovators. And so what needs to change is that understanding and will it change? I don't know, you know, I hope it can but we're so stuck and what we're doing must have such a mindset that off what we're doing is right because it has been right for a long time. So it can't get away from that. If you look at the you know, Broad Street educational reform all about doing the same thing over and over again, we've been doing the trying doing a better we can't be doing that. We have to find some way to do it differently. And you know, I'm not wage we can't do that then setting it's really tough to change such an embedded model that we have felt. It worked. Another thing that's interesting about education is the people that are Educators and may develop educational structures almost always come from what did they need to learn how they need to learn it when they were in school. So oftentimes we're about twenty or thirty years behind we're really are where we need to be. So right now, you know, we're designing educational models based on what needs to happen twenty years instead of twenty years in the future. If you look at what happened twenty years ago to look at that cap of twenty years. Everything is accelerating so fast that we can't even Envision twenty years in the future from now and if we can we have to realize a couple of things one is it will be no jobs in factories that were taken by robots. I mean, no jobs involving driving cars or tractors or Plains could be taken by robots. We know jobs that exist today that are robot can do So humans will have to find something else to do than those jobs and we need to we don't know what those are. So are we training people do their jobs wage will take over another, you know aspect of what I think needs to change. Absolutely. Yes. I mean the thing the next thing to be lost to be the accountancy in the finance all of those jobs. I imagine very shortly be automated. Yeah. It does seem to me that the compulsory school education is is definitely looking backwards not forwards. I mean so much to take away their for for our listeners if if parents listen so unhappy with their current education of their children and and they're looking at options, maybe homeschooling unschooling and they've just heard of your your model as well. What what would you say to know? They've got fears that you know, them are family and friends are all in in that system and they might you know, they might have some some doubt. What would you say to them? I would say that the dogs are useful. You really good. I like the fact wage. Like parents to come to us that acceptable is that means that question, you know, if if they start to question what's going on with their kids and the kids education. I really enjoy that because that means they're aware that they have the options in the world to be able to question. So definitely love the question, you know, as far as what those doubts tend to be home to be things around all my kids not going to learn like it's not motivated like it's not able to do this might be great for some kids, but not my kids. Well, my kids are going to keep up with other kids as far as what they know and how much you know, and some of those are inherent parent fears. I'm a parent. I have those fears. I mean every parent's going to have those fears right? But the reality is that if you look at kids they are inherently motivated. If you look at child from the age of birth to five years old when they enter school they are motivated every month. Single step of the way and motivated to learn how to crawl to learn how to walk through how to talk. They motivated to become a most aware as they should be in that motivation is to kind of track that through to once they enter compulsory education school and motivation starts to die because they no longer responsible for their own selves. Someone else is telling them what to do and have actually seen kids come to our school that have been in a compulsory educational model for a long time and then in the quote not motivated unquote. They don't know what to do. So in fact, they do nothing for a long time like months and they finally realize you know what no one's going to tell me to get off my ass to do something and I'm bored out of my mind. So I'm going to get up I'm going to do something that could be anything but that first step of taking charge of your life. Is what we want cuz after all what do you do when you're twenty-five and out of college, you need to take charge of your life. No one can tell you what to do. You have to learn that early or not lose that ability that we take away from kids by putting in the system. We tell them all the time what to do with if you think about if you tell a child what to do for twelve years for sixteen years if they go to college and then expect them to go into the world and decide for themselves. That's that's kind of crazy. Like we say do this do this do this, Okay. Now choose what you want to do. That's a crazy crazy way to educate kids and yet we do that. So that part about the motivation thing I can you know, I can just say look they are motivated and doesn't make sense that if you want to motivate it adults. And then an independent adult to have them be able to motivate and be independent as their grow. The other part that we hear a lot about is Mike is the same the same level that they're friends and reading and writing or math arithmetic and yeah, that might be true. You know, how may times when not at the same level cuz they're not forced to do that, but the difference is When they choose to do that thing whatever it's reading or writing or math is some other academic Pursuit. They do it much quicker and with more attention reality and with better recall than you do something if you're not if you don't want to do it. So for example, we do for math we do in compulsory schools or do math from probably kindergarten where they learn numbers up to grade. I think it's eight or nine based off that before algebra. So it's an old time is addition subtraction multiplication division things everything before algebra. Take just like eight years. We can do that in 20 contact hours for acai berry School eight years of education and twenty hours when a kid wants to do it right back if you talk to any teacher. Yeah, they say, okay the first half of every school year was reviewing the last half of last year. Then we got like two weeks in the middle. We do have new stuff and we have to start preparing them for the tests. I'm ready for next year. There's not a lot of learning going on in that 40 weeks of school. It's it's you know, there's really not a lot of Education. It's disciplined. It's memorization and it's getting prepared for something all the tests. It's going to then recall memorization. So it's not something to lose too much just have to say yeah. Yeah that's amazing reading and writing. Yeah Reading Writing the same. I mean, I I've seen kids my daughter included never had a reading class. My entire life was never taught or a faith and didn't read until she was nine. And you know during that time we would read to my wife out to eat here. And then one day, you know, I'm tired of not knowing how to read so she picked up Harry Potter and read it off like it was it was Harry Potter was a book that was interesting to her and she heard it enough times must reading it to her that she kind of knew what it was, but she could work it out. So she taught herself how to read that's amazing Harry Potter. You know, none of this, you know run the Run seeds, you know, the whole boring stuff that we trained kids on reading that they don't really want to read she went to her about it. It's fun. If you've not the only kid in our school, which first book was Harry Potter, right? That's amazing. Yes. We got hopefully having another couple of guests on the they've got their own stories with them as well up to 11 sometimes and then they're reading, you know, the great works from straight into something that they find they're so interested in that's so that's nice to hear. I think overall this has been such a positive chat today and if people are interested in learning more, is there a website or email address you can give them to the website is Sunbury schedule this u d b u r y School, the email address is office at Sudbury school. And again, it's s u d b u r y we often think people off. Sudsbury or some other name, but it's Sudbury percent. That's great. Well, thank you so much for your time today, mister Collins, and hopefully maybe with chats again in the future about more the day-to-day mechanics, or maybe even speak to a couple of your students that might be great, Thanks very much for your time. Thank you. Thank you very much. I hope you got as much out of that talk as I did an excellent introduction to where we are now and where we could be. Please check your inbox will be back in touch very shortly for much more inspiration for you to start your journey into homeschooling child-led learning and Liberty. If you know of any families looking for alternatives to school, please give them our information home schooling and liberty.com off and they are more than welcome to join us on this journey will see you real soon. Cheers calling us whether you saw only got a son has to say what God you gotta put yourself in every time she will catch you when you fall you gotta love yourself from winning. Love yourself to your voice. You gotta take the power back. Now ask yourself this question. What is so amazing and down and government-run schools that you would send your children. There can be taught by essentially strangers a curriculum over which you have no Authority or control. How would you like to be a part of a children's learning you were a part of your children's learning was colors how she ties your shoes. What is a butterfly why mommy loves her? Why would you not want to continue to be a part of that page? Look at what you've been told for so long that you have to say. Well, maybe maybe they're not right and maybe your instincts are right unlearn those things. This is about human rights and endowing children with dignity and agency and autonomy and and then guess what as a side benefit it works.

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Is a college degree still relevant in our ever changing world?

The Homeschooling and Liberty Podcast

28:08 min | 1 year ago

Is a college degree still relevant in our ever changing world?

"Hello, good, morning, and welcome. My name is Graham and I'm delighted to be with your today as we start these journeys into asking what it is to be really free free from constraints and conformity free from constant testing and peer pressure and free from unsafe an uninspiring school environments. Free to let children explore the world around them through play corporation and inspiration free to let children learn naturally following their curiosity, and then this creativity recounted that learning isn't about going well at school it's about engaging with. You you. Carrying you miss around. In today's show we ponder a different future and go to the heart of the matter and asked what education could look like in say five or ten years. We ask you colleges for everyone and what employers are actually looking for in today's ever changing market can the years of debt obtaining a vague degree to pursue a career that may not even exist in a few years ever shadow of? Varied work experience demonstrating dedication innovation and hard work from a young age can home schoolers and any student for that matter stop building their online presence. Then seek out companies that may take them on as an apprentice in businesses. They already have a deep understanding of and interest in. Well, today's guest has spent many years questioning these very topics. Today we welcomed the endlessly positive and always inspiring Isaac Morehouse. Isaac is the CEO of crash, the career launch platform and practice a startup apprenticeship program. Isaac founded practice back in two thousand thirteen with a now proven track record of hundreds of students gaining guidance to pursue careers they actually enjoy. So massive. Thank you for joining us today. Isaac. Hey. Thanks so much for having me grandma I'm really really thrilled to be here. Love what you're doing. And you to start off by telling us a little bit about your own schooling I'm looking back. We just like to get an insight into how you look back on that. Now I was positive or negative experience and juicy. You use any skills from those days helping you today in your entrepreneurship endeavors. Yes absolutely. I have very positive. Educational Experience. So my my mom home-schooled me and my two older siblings and my dad was in a car accident when I was three and has a closed head injury. He requires twenty four hour care and he lived at home with us but there was always home health aides in the house to help out with him. So essentially my mom was you know not not only a single mother but actually raising three kids as well as taking care of a disabled husband. And they had decided to home school us before my dad got the accidents just because they didn't like. The things that were being taught in the quality of education in the public school system and the private school system is. Often really similar but also really expensive meds an accountant he was very cheap. And they and my mom was a teacher had had taught special ed in in loves teaching. So they had love this idea. So after my dad was in the exit, my mom's stuck with it. And we had swerve by necessity because of you know my mom doing this alone taking care of her husband we had a very unstructured schooling experience. My mom did not think this was good. She always felt guilty about it. She felt bad, I mean we had home school classes. There was a big home school community where we grow in West. Michigan. So we had some classes in coops and there were. Sports teams you know basketball team in some of that stuff, and we had a quite robust social life based around your church and home schooling groups. But in terms of like sitting there doing subjects and homework curriculum, you know she would go to these curriculum fares by a bunch of stuff. Get all excited and we just never do. We'd kind of because she'd get busy and we'd all like scattering play Lagos. Until she came back and said you're supposed to be doing and so She always felt like it was not structured enough. We should be doing all this stuff. You know we we knew some home schoolers who were doing like Latin and Greek and all this highly structured, and we were not in effect it was unschooled. So we had a ton of independence and you know the need to sort of take care of ourselves in many ways and a lot of responsibility. So household chores, things like that making meals and laundry. You know I i. we had different jobs, paper outs and stuff from a very young age, and that was that was always something that was emphasized and again partially because it was a necessity, my mom needed help with a lot of this stuff with my dad not being sort of you know in the picture of needing help as well. So might my childhood was a very short of? Wild. Almost chaotic at times mix of interacting with a lot of different people doing some classes in some clubs and submission trips and stuff with church and very little structure in the schooling curriculum side a lot of responsibility with chores and sort of work and things to do in. I cannot ask for anything more I. Think it was a really great combination, my Sophomore Year of high school my. Brother and sister were both out of house most of the time with jobs and things and I. I was Kinda like stuck there and feeling lonely and a couple of my friends went to a small private school to play on the basketball team here because it was better than the home school team, and so I decided to go join them for a year and went to this private. School for a year and it was fine. I had a fine experience and enjoy the social aspects. But I remember feeling like man, this is so limiting I have to be here everyday the same hours every day I have to be on the same pace as everyone else whether or not I need to. You know we're all just sort of tracked here as if we're all like uniform widgets. Can earn money during the day which I had sort of been accustomed to. Sort of flex things in Taylor them to my own schedule It just felt really constraining so. After that, I went straight to community college and Kinda work classes around my work schedule and. Know. Sort of got regained some of that independence in my schedule. So I loved the way that we were sort of unskilled and I think my mom felt guilty about it for years and now that I think all of her kids were all unscrewing our own kids and we all have a more radical version of home schooling. I. Think she now sees Hey, that actually might not have been too bad. Roy So she was almost a pioneer at the time of unscrambling yet. Dental Phya near. Yes. That's great. Yeah. So When you decided to carry their own in your own family. Did you have any sort of philosophies? Did you study any in particular is there anywhere you might recommend people to to look into these audited just naturally come about that. You would carry on having your kids on school. Yeah. Not surprisingly wasn't natural because I didn't. I didn't internalize my own experience as unschooled I had never heard that phrase before it was just homeschooling and we were sort of you know not all that structured. So when we had our own kids, our plan was to home school that my wife had had briefly home schooled for a couple of years and loved it, and then she went to school and she never really liked school it just especially high school she just Kinda Kinda hated actual in. So we decided we want to home school we both had positive experiences with it. and. So we started with all kinds of curricula like really structure like heavy duty curricula and it was brutal The first few years my wife was just like kept paring it down more and more because it was just constantly with my son and try to get him to do it. We knew he was really bright verbally and things, but he didn't he didn't WanNa read wouldn't. He wouldn't learn to read and we knew he could and it was frustrating we're trying to do all this stuff. After a couple of years of that and it just wearing us down. I you know I had read John Taylor Gatto dumbing us down and I had. I sort of just internalized that as a reinforcement of things I already knew about the public education system just how how bad it is and how you know unhealthy for kids in many ways and for learning. But the more I sorta let it sink in a realize that a lot of those same structures. A lot of the default method of schooling is basically just mirroring the school structure, but in the home and I had sort of unwittingly kind of continued with that, and then I came across the Sudbury Valley School, which I had never heard of before in someone's told me about this and they said we. Had moved to Charleston they said we WANNA start a Sudbury school in Charleston. So I went and started looking up the Sudbury valley school and I read everything I could get my hands on about it written by the founders students and I happen to be at a conference where one of the founders Daniel Greenberg spoke it was a panel with a Sudbury school a Montessori School in like a very traditional like. Preparatory now, private school and they each gave their sort of approach and philosophy and I was just blown away between that and reading about it. This sudbury approach of basically just let kids do whatever they want to let them follow their interest and really it's the parents who struggled with that environment not the kids the kids sort of after a kind of a period of realizing that the parents are not. Bluffing that they really can pursue their interests they end up teaching themselves everything everybody at the submarine school taught themselves to read eventually some at age four sausage thirteen, and by by the time they were adults they had no difference. In fact, the girl who didn't learn until she was thirteen one, some sort of literary prize in adulthood, and just this pressure to like have kids learn certain things at certain times. It all sort of faded away. It was like the blinders fell off when I discovered the Sudbury Valley School, and then I dug into John holts ends. Peter Graves book free to learn, and it just kind of reinforced over and over again through examples in research that this in fact was the right approach for us and we basically went hand off full unscrewing from there on out Roy. So you much brought the Sudbury modal to your to your own home. That's exactly it, and we've we've kind of looked to to start something like that here. But it's sort of been. You know. Running practice I don't have the time to go full time to start a Sudbury school. So we've kind of done a hybrid. Our kids are unschooled at home, but we try to get together with other unschooled do meet ups in coops and we have a sort of a once a week submarine style thing that rotates location so that so that they can get interactions they're not just here at home with us, but they still have the ability to kind of how they how they spend their time. Yeah. That's fantastic and the rule quite happy is any of your room. Expressed an interest to go to any sort of school they really haven't. So my daughters who are six and almost eight they are running around playing with kids in the neighborhood all the time and pretty much all the kids in the neighborhood go to school, and so they wait until school gets out and then they play with them, play the weekends and and you know they'll play school sometimes with their friends and stuff and I've asked them by because I never want them to feel like we forced them to. Not Go to school. You know do you want to go to school? Would you be interested in that and they always just sort of say like if they were like, no, I'm terrified of it might be a little worried that I like you know somehow indoctrinated them with some unhealthy fear of school but they're always kind of like, no I think I like being at home and you know being able to hang out was you know kids that go to school sometimes and you know they played sports and there's different. Different activities in things. So thus far they're all very happy with it. I'm sure we'll get sign a little bit about the family sort of makeup but do you think there's any essential ingredients I'm here community coming through again and again any other structures or just qualities within the home that you might think maybe not all families could underscore there any sort of limit limitations you see or necessities for a family to have one school. So I honestly really don't and let me and let me explain that by. Saying it's always a question of compared to what. So if you say compared to the ideal scenario for my kids, can I provide an unschooled environment that meets that will know none of us can. There's always there's always a better version of us or the resources we have where the schedule that may provide a better environment than what's possible but compared to the relevant alternatives I think on schooling is pretty much always preferable. So the relevance alternatives especially, you're talking about putting them in a school system public or private. It's almost sort of like. Well, it can't really get much worse and I don't say that to be sensational. I'm not trying to hate on school I don't think people have bad intentions there by any means, kids go through school and and you know it's not like they they don't survive but I think when you look at it, you start to look at the research and you start to look at the way that kids are sort of quote socialized in schools that the the impacts of bullying or just the. Conditioning them to blindly follow authority punishing entrepreneurship calling it cheating. You know constantly strive to like dictating every part of their lives to where you have to ask permission even go to the bathroom. That's all like unhealthy stuff that's being inculcated in children, and if you do nothing more than remove that. And and provide nothing else in its place. I actually think you're still better off. So it's not great compared to the ideal but I think it's better than the alternative. Now, what are some things that I think are really important you know? Had allowing your kids to have access to as much of the world as you can. So the natural world. The world of ideas if you have books around the house or the world of commerce, if you you know work from home or you have, you know you're out and about engaging in business with your kids, you know even just as a consumer or you know people that have businesses kind of leading the MC. So they're not they're not sort of cordoned off to hear kids you stay in the pretend world until you're a grownup and we'll go off and do mysterious things. You don't see her understand in the GROWNUP world letting. Them kind of be a part of the actual world as much as possible. But the key ingredient I think is not having stress and burdening your kids with your own fear and expectations, and that is very, very hard because even when you read all the stuff and you read about how kids with you know twenty hours of focus, learning can learn math and faster than they could in ten years of unfocused teaching you know forced upon them and all this stuff and you know it's true and you've seen some case studies and you. When you're in the moment, you get panicky feelings frequently of like, okay my daughter's eight. She still not reading she still not really showing she's kind of interested she does, but she's not really should I be freaked out her friends have been reading for two years Sean. I'm embarrassed right and it's really hard to not let that come through and make you sort of be of divided mind and believe in theory in this unsettling thing. But then when you freak out, you just start imposing arbitrary rules on your kids and then they're all confused. So it's really key to just. To Really Trust your kids and to trust the process even when it's not perfect and it doesn't look like the ideal you imagined and. Kind of let it. Let it be that big ED trust children. I, think those the big takeaway from John Holts just see the Roy Entrepreneurship and in a massive shift away from the teacher led learning across the board from from schooling all the way fruits university. I. Just want. You could just us a little bit about the starts of your vision for practice how it was born. Yeah. You know I felt like college was a complete waste for me not in terms of you know there were some classes in books that I found interesting and and you know some. Social Components that were interesting and enjoyable but none of those required me to pay tuition I go sit at you can go sit in on college classes for free no one's GonNa stop. You know I was going to say you're not allowed in here until you're reading. So if you're really interested in the ideas learning the lecturers, even the social component football games, whatever none of that requires that you pay money and lock yourself into four years or five years and get the degree what people are buying is. The piece of paper and I like everyone else some fifteen years ago when I when I went to college thought, you just have to have it to get a job because everybody had told me that my whole life got have a degree to get a job and I felt like this is so autumn working to three days a week to pay my way through college and learning so much on the job and making pretty good money, and then I'm turning around and paying all to the institution were no one. Seems to want to go to class they cheer when classes canceled their half hung over most of the time the professors don't seem to enjoy lecturing that much none of the stuff learning interesting or relevant except for the few things that I'm already reading on my own and I'm buying a piece of paper that basically says, I'm no worse than all the rest of these people that are sitting in class with me I thought. Well, that's not a very strong signal like that piece of paper alone no one's. Going to say, wow, you have a BA from western Michigan University let me cut you a check. You know I'm GonNa have to do something beyond that to prove my worth and then I, started to realize well I've got to do something that's more valuable than the degree anyway if I do that doesn't degree the degree suddenly become irrelevant and there's an analogy here I have an associate's degree but once I got a bachelor's degree no one cares about the associate's degree or a high school diploma likewise once you. Have a year of interesting work experience or projects under your belt. One cares about your degree either and I had this realization and it really hit home and I kind of didn't know what to do with it for several years. I kind of thought about different ways to have alternatives to this. But took me about a decade really of of working in and around higher education with students, and then with entrepreneurs to let it sink in when I started doing fundraising for non often a meeting with all these. Successful business owners and founders, and they were all telling me that their big pain point is they can't find enough good people to hire and they also they don't care about degrees and pretty much everyone. If you went to their jobless things, they would say requirements it would say degree but it wasn't actually true. It was like, yeah. We're sorting through a bunch of information and typically people with a degree are on average better than those without. But that correlation it's not quotation and we don't like if you can. Prove something better. It doesn't really matter. We just want good people. So I started talking to him and realizing, and there's all these students that have degrees in debt and they said it can't find jobs are getting jobs at restaurants that they could gotten degree in the first place and they have no idea how to go create the value for someone and sell themselves to a business and an open up opportunities, and meanwhile the Internet is just blowing up everything making it easier than ever to start a business. To freelance to demonstrate your skills to accompany, and so we created practice to provide really a better way. It's a one year program six month professional boot camp that teaches you how to market yourself how to not only build skills but catalogue and demonstrate your skills through projects that you can tangibly share creating a digital footprint so that when people google you, they see a wow, this person built this marketing campaign and they did this and they've got this skill and here's something they designed and teaching you how to. Do value propositions to companies to sell yourself to say, Hey, I built this for you. I would like to work for you. Let me work for free for a while. Let me show you this and open up opportunities in the second six months. We actually place you in an apprenticeship at a startup into paid apprenticeships. Or you're doing real work in the real world and getting your foot in the door at sort of your first step in at the end of the program ninety, six percent of our graduates get a time job and very few of them have college degrees. So and most of the jobs are getting our our jobs that you know supposedly require degrees but they're figuring out how to build something better than degree hunting jump in and actually demonstrate their skill you know sell themselves. That are relevant in the marketplace instead of hoping that a resume or degree does the work for them. How would you say the real skills practice brings out in graduates from the program That's a great question. So we we focus primarily on sort of non technical talent. So that is you know if someone's really dead set on engineering or computer programming and sort of those hard skills. Weaken. We occasionally work with people that we can help them sort of beef up their soft skills and give them some broader experiences but we tend to focus on people who are kind of like me like jack-of-all-trades sort of generalist usually people, skills, types soft skills. Communication skills maybe interest in sales or marketing or of operations logistics, stuff behind the scenes and the main things that we help them with I think is I realizing that sales is everything and you have to understand sales including selling yourself dulling? Your. Experience really how to how to own your own brand to think of yourself as your company and I. Don't mean that like a cheesy way like I know there's a lot of you know sort of self promoters that have Plaka cheesy brandon doesn't have to be like that. It's really just a way of senior reputation what what is it that people find and see and think about you win encounter you in a professional context or don't they think of you at all which could be a problem. And then you're you're sort of communication skills. How to master email, which is actually really hard for a lot of young people but incredibly important how to get things done consistent basis turning creativity into discipline not something you wait for in hope that it comes but actually taking charge of it really learning to build your own structure to set your own goals and go after them instead of like following somebody's preset path and hoping that it works out. And then know the experience at the business partners can be wide ranging, but it's it's very tangible things like you'll learn how to. You know go through a a sales funnel, do cold emails and talk to potential clients and get them scheduled on demo calls and get them to to purchase the product for the company you're working for or to you know, do you know financial projections or to do to build the lead capture on a website to get more people to opt into you know an email list or something like that whatever whatever the companies are are hiring for in those apprentice ships and we have a pretty a pretty wide range, but it's our graduates have been. Very successful and the biggest thing I think is that they it helps de school their minds and help them realize that they're in the driver's seat and they can create opportunity for themselves and that mindset that's the hardest part of the program. It takes a lot of work to sort of breakdown that sort of telling me what to do and how I get an a mindset. But once you do. It's also. The, biggest reward. So do see naturally the somebody coming from an unschooled home background might excel more in something like practice. Absolutely we found that people. Yeah. There's sort of two categories people who are home schooled and especially the more independent. That is the more like unsettling at is do very well and have less difficulty transitioning into the program and another group of people that does really well those who have parents or relatives who are small business owners and they've kind of been around entrepreneurs before and they kind of understand the need to create value rather than just you know please customers rather than just chasing credentials. So yeah, that's definitely helps. For for people entering the breakfast program Yes so many success stories from the employers and graduates alike Ya. As, much as we can grow we. WanNa grow. We. We feel like there are so many people for whom. College is really a waste of time and the ability to jump into something sooner is there but they need a little help fanning that entrepreneurial spirit into flame and kind of being shown the ropes, getting some coaching getting some a little bit of structure to help get them going on building their own projects in opening up opportunities and connecting them. To our business partners is great network that we have. We can SORTA vouch for them and say, Hey, let this person apprentice improved themselves. So the opportunity is huge and I, think more and more young people are awaking to this are waking up to this facts. So we our plan is to grow as much as we can possibly grow. That's fantastic. Such. positivity. Thank you so much for joining us today. We just generally ask our guest to give any words voice to two parents may be unhappy with their current children's education that public school system or whatever it might be. They're looking for alternative you. There's a good place to start or how they go about the idea of taking a off public schooling. Yeah I would say break it down into a smaller smaller decision. You know don't don't look at it as once and for all the question of my child's education, which sort of implies like their success in life as a whole it down and say what if for the next year? For, the next year, let the kids come out of school and let them do a much more self guided. You know experience. Let's let him on school for a year and let's see what happens and you'll be amazed. They're not going to get really far behind or have any major problems they end up going back to school. It's actually not that hard to get caught up to speed. But I would say, take a year tell that to people were interested in practice and they're not sure maybe they want to go to college take one year and give it a shot and let yourself experience something different and see if it fits in. I'd be shocked if it didn't but but I think breaking it down. And I would also say free to learn by Peter. Gray is a really great book to help you kind of to alleviate some of the worries and fears about unsettling thus. Great. Well, thank you so much Isaac I'm is there any way people can gain touch of you if they'd like to maybe find out more about practice or contact you directly you bet I'm GonNa give you the practice website and I'll give you my personal website as well. So the practice website if you're interested in learning more about this apprenticeship program go check out discover practice, dot com you can. Download our program guide. You can browse around and see what we've got there So discover practice dot com, and if you WANNA see I've got my books, my podcast and blog regularly over at is it morehouse dot com you can learn more about me and what I'm up to their yeah like in definitely vouchers a great place to go beyond teens and inspired. So thanks once again Isaac and maybe we speak again in the next few months practice is progressing and hopefully speak to some of your success stories as well would love to Graham. I hope you've got as much out that talk as I did an excellent introduction to where we are now and where we could be. Please check your inbox will be back in touch very shortly for much more inspiration few to start your journey into home schooling child led learning and liberty. If you have any families looking for alternatives to school, please give them our information homeschooling and liberty dot com and they are more than welcome to join us on this journey. We'll see you real soon. Cheers. Beckoning now. Calling us with as you saw. GotTa. As to say. God You law. Got Up surface every time. She will catch you and you saw. Self within. Love. You. GotTa take the power. Ask yourself this question. What is so amazing and one got a government run schools that he would send your children. To be taught by essential strangers a curriculum over which you have no authority or control. How would you like to be a part of your children's learning? You were part of your children's learning is colors how she ties her shoes what is a butterfly? Why Mommy loves her? Why would you not want to continue to be a part of that? Book and what you've been told for so long that you'd have to say, well, maybe maybe not right and maybe your instincts are right unlearn those things. This. Is a about human rights and endowing children with dignity and agency and autonomy. And then guess what as a side benefit it works.

Isaac Morehouse Sudbury Valley School Sudbury school basketball John Taylor Gatto Sudbury school a Montessori Sc Graham Roy Peter Graves John holts Michigan Lagos closed head injury CEO Charleston western Michigan University accountant
Hour 1: Dugout Fights

The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz

34:40 min | 1 year ago

Hour 1: Dugout Fights

"The Dan Le Batard Woodstock Gotcha podcast is brought to you by the capital one's ever card or four percent cashback on dining and entertainment do percent grocery stores of one percent on all of the purchases now when you go out you can't Jim what's in your wallet terms apply. This is the Dan lebatardshow with his two cats podcasts. I think maybe I'll start every show this way from now through the end of time the thing that STU got says as the microphones come on on our show had started but he feels the need to launch something into the shipping container right before we started. That is an interesting anybody today. He just shouted. I heard Rob Dibble this morning. You have an illness I do okay. You've got like a sickness. There's we've got a diagnosis you I what is the context of you shouting at them. I heard Rob Dibble. This morning. DEB's the open there had robb Nen. Mike was talking about Rodman and I just wanted to let Mike now and I think everyone was excited that I heard from Rob Dibble this morning. I'm certain everyone was wondering what happened. The DEB's used to work at the network. Now works at a local affiliate offered didn't get into if I would Lou Pinella. I I believe he did legendary fight. Why were you listening to local Hartford affiliate because I was listening to Golic and Wingo on the drive in they have this eliminator pool going on which I am a Porta Lord of and Rob Dibble is also a part of it and so dibs had to make his pick and therefore I heard dibs deb's. Weren't you concerned all right. Thanks Gotz. What's for all of that. feel free at any point to do your actual job here when the microphones go on deflect on him you went there. It's not well no because it's distracting. It's is not merely that he doesn't do his job as the microphone start. It's that he keeps you guys from doing your job because he's shouting things like that into the other room home that require explanation. I want to know from the room. You guys heard it. There was no back and forth the show had already started. You guys tell me what the honest reaction was in that room to him shouting and right as we're starting to try and do our job you guys tell me what the honest reaction was to to hearing. I heard dibs this morning. I had them tuned out. I didn't hear it at all. Is it the same for all of you know basically yeah. I thought that he said I heard rob. Wriggle this morning and I got really excited and then I put it together. Oh he said Rob Dibble and I was less excited but still excite thank you greg's small washed over my face because then I began thinking about the time the Rob Dibble Panella fun club Noah. Can you imagine if that happened today and now I'm watching the video and Pinella was about to get dragged. That's why I do it data listen. It's just a conversation amongst friends. I mean you do join the break me in this room but I'm telling you. There's a bond there that cannot be broken for. Roy Who don't listen to you. That's the bond they've learned to have. The Room has learned to tune when you out the other one. Here's your wrong and one of them is just sort of grown immune to your perpetual peppering. What are you watching. The fight in. The billy says he's never seen the follower you ready. Eddie Make Billy Billy hold on a second calling on you to Youtube and and watch this fight between Panella and Panella and and Dibs. I want you to watch this and I want you to imagine what it is that it would be like if today something like that happened and a hurly-burly managed hurly-burly with a burly manager Lou Pinella he perpetually as a player had the red ass like always did just perpetuate the man he was. He was always mad at everybody and he decided he was going to attack one half of the nasty boys. Things made me laugh at us. PENELAS is in full uniform dibble's in tight blue jeans is a guy wearing a flexible four fifty four shirt and at the end Nelson you won't between like a man sweet low and is that Eric Davis David Eric Davis one of the great I think rookie seasons of all time and then kind of claimed out afterwards sweetly ironic nickname for Lou Pinella. I don't know how he was it as swing because he was a very solid three hundred header the today in today's Day and age didn't hit enough home run for size in today's Day and age. You wouldn't be much of a player certainly that body type wouldn't play much I today I don't think and so he decided that it was a good idea to just charge headfirst into his crazy reliever who was standing in front of his locker. It's like one of those like calling a big guy. A heavyset guy slim one of those sarcastic nicknames then went down the Google wormhole and I found like why was tiny archibald called tiny was he tall or actually tiny and he was six foot one. Same size is Bob cousy. So why did they call him. Tiny right was speedy claxton fast. Ask You was yes. He was good jobs. Guys excellent work. Thank you for confirming a report by the way suite Lou Dan just to ninety one career hitter sixteen seasons in the majors had one hundred and two home runs so it was a sweet sweet Guillermo. Did you see have you remembered Penelas throwing of second base when Matt Umpire you do remember that when he was a manager. We were talking the other day about it. That's the part of baseball that I miss. The most is the fact. There's no arguing with umpires anymore because of replay review like that is the one thing aside from the fact that like whatever they're looking through very slow things in any call that could go either either way. It's like super precise now. Aside from that replay has ruined the fact that you can't have managers run on the field more grab basis throw base you missed. We all miss that don't even know it was one of the things in the world it was one of the best old man dressed like the athletes running out onto the field to argue a call that was rarely overturned but I feel like Garron Boone and Brett Gardner had been arguing with buyers the entire season. I mean Bobby Cox would be thought of so differently. If he managed in today's era he would just be a frumpy old guy as opposed to the fun guy. That's GONNA get ejected seventeen times. You miss it to you miss. I do put it on the poll at Lebatardshow talk show. Do you miss the arguing with umpires. I always wondered with Bobby Cox going out there. What is the things that he did because there was always one thing thing. Where was like oh it had to be a word? That's what I'm saying. The word was wondering what that word was when he decided now is the time to drop this wording because you'd see goings and the empires putting up with it and he gets the point and it's like you're out of here. They're held there something absolutely an unwritten code between UMPIRES and managers. I think it was it Major League that chronicle this or or was it. Was it a different movie that there are certain words. You cannot say to an umpire for some reason. I don't think all Durham is what it was all right. The wormhole continued and now I'm just watching Carlos Zambrano highlights. This student was out of concern. uh-huh penelas telling you to calm down is that almost killed Michael Berry. Is that who we think of when we think of dugout fights is Carlos Zambrano the first Guy Ah paypal bond powerful bond PAT dugout fights jeff can't Jeff Kent is a good one. Jeff Gant is the guy I think of dugout fights her her status. I don't think about this for a second. This is a good conversation right here. Word Association Baseball Player you associate. We dugout fight because Papon absolutely is one Chris. Davis is one Zambrano was certify ably a crazy just watching a video of I am throwing out an empire out you search for Billy Martin and Reggie Jackson the first I get in a dugout fight because I feel like at the time like that's not something that you do is disrespect your manager rate. I feel like before there was more. That's a good question. I'm the thinking of George Brett but that's different. That's him exploding out of the DUGOUT. Holy Difference doesn't the United States at Tortorella mix it up. No I haven't really hasn't I remember him vividly trying to go at another coach like trying to climb the glass and fight another coach on the opposite side. yeah those coach. Orissa's coach fights in hockey. I'm surprised we don't see more bench like their own team fighting each other and hockey because they're so like aggressive on the ice but you don't ever really see each other I in practice that happens in practice a lot actually interesting hockey analysis right there at the end. Did anyone have an answer to my dugout. Fights question what we were talking about. George Brett incident was protested right and I'm pretty sure that they said you know what we were wrong and they restarted the gay day. Yeah I think Don Mattingley Bingley was playing second base in that game. They restarted the game they play. They absolutely made a different ruling in the Pine Tar game and made the Yankees Royal. Play the bottom half of the ninth inning. Roy Roy totally undersold the United States Torella. Dude is a serial fighter. I'm watching a video which he's in a tight hallway going at all the Calgary flames. Rg Glad I brought up deb's apology and I have the first fight dugout fight going back to nine hundred seventy four. I'll keep searching Stugatz here. We all love night out whether it seeing our favorite band inversion or being there in the crowd that year on our favorite team with vivid seats rewards loyalty program you could attend the concert or show of your choice and earn credit toward your next live event vivid seats as the top source for tickets for all the live event you want to go to you could sort by price in order for seats in the section in a row of your choice all vivid seats APP. It's very easy to make things even better vivid seats. Now has a loyalty program that allows fans to earn credit the back. All you need to do is use the vivid seats APP to purchase tickets and start earning today. Go to the APP store or Google play and download the vivid seats APP. Fans are automatically. Karol vivid seats rewards loyalty program. Every purchase backed by a one hundred percent buyer guarantee from the biggest concerts and games of the hottest theatre shows more vivid seats besides it all download the APP joined the Vicki's rewards loyalty program today make a memory that lasts a lifetime and let the vivid seats APP help you get to your favorite live event. Johnny got a twig offset when he was three and from that day on he was hooked all he wanted to do was Gulf Gulf Gulf. He'd be on links before school after schools all he ever wanted to go pro and then one day when he was holding his grandson and thinking about his twelve handicap. Johnny realized it just might not happen for yeah but you know what did happen for him. He switch to Geico and saved a bunch of money on car insurance so that was good and so was hanging out with his grandson Donlevatar on Libertad. I would absolutely take down my own school as a journalist. If I find out that there was financial aid problems. Are you kidding me. I'm not hiding that story. I totally leverage that information for money. Felony Blackmail stugatz. He's gotta be the Radio Personality in America who freely admits yeah. I'd commission said so he's got good. You got to go. All the other spots have been taken. He's like serving the landscape on. Where can I plant my flag. I got this one like nobody else wants this. Why is there no one here. Wow this looks like such a great land. I could just claim all fraud and crime worked out well for me. DCC Donlevatar show with within two guys on ESPN radio so we've got some Rambo less blood critical reviews in already Freddie and there seems to be a bit of Gulf between how the audience feels about Rambo last blood and how the critics feel about Rambo last blood the movie nation Roger Moore Movie Nation Calls. It a fastest snuff film fascist fascist. Excuse me sorry about that. Everything goes a fascist fascist snuff film Evan Doc- of the Midwest Film Journal calls it a grim and nihilistic swansong for America's former jingoistic poster your boy questions the cost of hyper-violent rainbows anaylyst the hell of these words and with these people Andrew Parker of the gate says last blood the promise a grand sendoff to one of cinema's most iconic action movie characters but it's not much of a Rambo movie. Sam Adams of slate says you might not think in ninety nine minute movie could drag but boy does this one. What's the audience that Robert hold on a second Robert Kolja writes in flickering myth. The only thing that death is coming for is the Rambo Franchise itself. Rohan of the Muddy Anti Hindu Times writes loud full of hot air but perversely watchable Sylvester stallone sequel might become. Ah Donald Trumps favorite movie rambling blood features what is easily the most violent movie scene of the year. It's awesome. That's according the New York Post Reputable Peter Gray of Brisbane Easter rights right now John Rambo. We've all had enough a we've had enough of you. That's got enough of Kevin laforest writes. The Third Act is wildly intense and insanely violent and you can get the full full review and friendship. You want it. Nice laforest Brian Orndorff if a BLU ray dot com rights essentials are accounted for giving stallone another chance to play in John Rambo's frenzied sweaty world of regret and revenge. No you're already going to see this movie but I think I got the review. That's going to make you see this moving. Okay mmediately regret and revenge though that is so Fred Topel of Showbiz cheat writes. It almost has to be the last blood because there's no more blood laughing. There's always more blood and Luke Parker. We've got this covered says last blood proves that at the time and place for mostly muddy military machismo as long as has does a lot of alliteration from that guy here is Kenneth Turan of the La Times a surprisingly brooding examination the nation of a warrior in winter dock a dark story of a beserk who can't can't let go that's in its own way bleaker and more despairing than we may even be expected. Scott Mendelson of Forbes tries to make this sound bad because it was a negative review but he writes. It's taken knock off with John. Rambo arbitrarily thrown into the mix that sounds amazing really let it on the poll taken spin off with John Rambo thrown into the mix sound amazing a grant Graham Tuck it of stuff dot com rights as it is. The film is a Lazy Z. Mass with no real reason to exist. Okay grant same as US stuff it off it. South US magazine. I'd say that's right. Dot Com not stuff magazine on the audience gives it an eighty two percent rotten tomatoes and that's that's all I care. That's what you want Chris or listen. If I went with a credit score I never would have seen rocky four seriously forty percent that but the audience eighty percent I'll trust the audience thank you yeah. I'm reading some of the audience reviews and it's exactly what everybody is looking for pretty damn awesome for what that is. Great character revisited exactly what I expected exactly what I wanted to exactly what I paid for movie is so awesome and it's the most emotional film I've ever seen. Go ahead and put this on at Lebatardshow at as well when you want critical all reviews from rotten tomatoes on Rambo last blood. Do you want them from the critics or from the audience. Why are people saying this is bad? There seems to be one hundred percent masculinity zero percent soy according to Nathan H. It doesn't snooty critic walk into a movie like that knowing he's GonNa give it a bad review. Doesn't he or she. I don't know I don't know the the answer to that wonder if movie critics popcorn while they watch movies. Why wouldn't they think I picture they have no pad. They have classes that they continue. Can you to work against their nose. They have like this face. Just like this achey face. The whole time like impress me impressed me movie. Rambo last blood has made for people who listen to Beethoven's fifth symphony while binge-watching mortal combat fatality videos. We've got some critical reviews here of stugatz appearance on around the horn yesterday we'll get to those next eight t h Donlevatar fired towards Stugatz three years of your life will be spent on the toilet these lebatardshow with the two guys on ESPN radio ESPN radio is presented by Progressive Insurance guests on the Dan Le Batard show appear via the Shell Pennzoil performance line. Prep your engine for winter with pennzoil synthetic motor royal. The first motor oil made from natural gas not crude oil. The proof is in the pennzoil. Here's your sportscenter update Thursday night. Football Jaguars defeated the titans twenty two seven the jags is defense sacked Marcus Mariota nine times for a total loss of fifty five yards. Jalen Ramsey says that his dissatisfaction with the Jaguars for an office has led to his trade request. He said quote some disrespectful things were said on their end that made me definitely walk out and call agent as soon as I walked out and I told them I said it's taught John. My time is up here. In Jacksonville I want to ask for a trade ad finally there are two point nine billion fewer birds in the US and Canada now then fifty years ago nature valley sweet and salty bars or the indulgent break you deserve your day. Have you tried the dark chocolate peanut and almond almond flavor now that's a sit in the dock and taking moment kind of bar nature valley sweet and salty bars for all the latest headlines. Information tune into sports center on ESPN radio all throughout the ED redoing the World Bird Census now. We've been doing it for twenty years. No one's with aware that this happens what do they do. They knock on nest. Hey how many how many baby birds you have in there. How on Earth do they know that there's two point nine billion last birds now than there were twenty years ago or fifty years or whatever the New York Times spoke to researchers who have studied this and collected a sample over the course of fifty years in Canada and the United Sates Yeah Bird Census. How are they keeping track of. All these birds you you can show me five birds and they could be five identical birds you bring out one bird five times and I wouldn't know the difference would you. I want someone one two two three four and they want. How are they keeping track of all these birds he does bring up a good point in that a lot of birds look the same so like our birds able to look at other birds never get very close to a bird though I mean if I'm dating a bird and I'm a bird. Do I sometimes get confused. I used that another birds my back. If you were dating a bird I would hope you were a bird. Yes otherwise I had to clarify at Lebatardshow on twitter. Here's how you vote on the polls. I WANNA put up there. Who Do you most associate with. The dugout. Fight is it Chris Davis Jonathan Paople Bon Reggie Jackson Carlos Zambrano Jeff Cantor. We missing anybody from this list. Chris has done a deep dive on research to find out when the first dugout fight was between between teammates. Were you able to find any good information Chris. The earliest dugout fight that I found was one thousand nine hundred twenty two the Yankees Babe Ruth. The manager was Miller Huggins at the time now. They made the world series this year when I'm seeing that there were multiple that year a lot of Babe Ruth was feeling himself and there was a lot there was some a beef between the manager and the players huggy bear yeah I also learned in my research that in one thousand nine hundred seventeen with that while he was pitching for the Red Sox Babe Ruth once after throwing walking guy that he he didn't think should've he punched empire. I what did they come down with as far as the suspension. I'll look it up no. Let's find out actually that had a glass of Scotch. That's what was such a great question. What what was the suspension of Babe Ruth in one thousand nine hundred twenty two twenty by twenty two was the dugout fight seventeen was when he punched in empire. Okay okay all right. Let's find out what that suspension was and in the interim allow me to read some mockery of Stugatz that has come here via the Internet he he is also not shaved today as an endorser for dollar. Shave club and I'm telling you. The people were concerned yesterday when they were watching around the horns. Do God says arrived at at the height of the sports entertainment ladder the place he's always wanted to be fought for years to be on around the horn the glamour and pageantry of mainstream television in the middle of the lineup for the worldwide leader in sports and continuously looks like a Hobo. We have an update on the two thousand on the nineteen seventeen. Babe Ruth Umpire a punching incident so he attempted to punch the empires jaw but instead it was a glancing blow blow that connected with the Umpire's ear ruth was fined one hundred dollars which the equivalent to sixteen hundred dollars today was given a ten game suspension and was forced to give a public apology. I that is great. What do you think this suspension would be today for bunching and I'm Byron the ear while trying to hit him in the jaw. Ah just be forever just forever. Does it depend on the player like the Babe Ruth of today. What if he does that. How how much how many games did Roberto Almar get for spitting on an umpire for merely spitting on an umpire in the glory days of the nineties and how much did that? Wasn't there a guy who yeah WAS IT Delmon Young. No I don't WanNa smear somebody here who met through a bat and an empire through a through a bat an umpire but I'm not sure if it was delmon young or not Mike and Billiard just riveted here. What are you watching. Mike what there's no footage of this in nineteen seventeen but I'm reading the quotes of Babe Ruth and trash talk was just so much more sophisticated back then today would just be a bunch of f words now there was one I believe but if you go to bed at night you expletive you could keep your eyes open long enough in the daytime to see one a ball goes over the plate at such wordy trash talk coming from the mound and he's like I'll punch out punch right in the jaw simpler time like so explain this to me. Stugotz because I want to understand what's happening. Okay via twitter. People are watching you on around the horn. It was a threat they were having a a discussion. He's like if you throw me out punch in the Jaw Piran Them Babe Ruth punched him in the job after he got thrown out by game suspension follow more five five the national controversy. Oprah weighed in on the way like an extra year to get into the hall of fame the friends now by friends Roberto Alamo Friends with the Empire whose spacey Spit Spit in the next season. He actually shook his hand and then they became friends. delmon young did indeed throwback got fifty games for fifty games for throwing a bat. I feel like which one's worse though punching in the face and hitting in the ear is worse than both spitting in the face and throwing bidding is just so I I would rather I would rather you punch me right here. Then spent my I think the bats the worst of all three that's that could be a deadly weapon was John Hirschbeck by the way all right. Hold on a second here you guys all disagree on which is the worst of these put it on the poll. Addis so much worse I'd lebatardshow which is worse which is the worst behavior from baseball player punching umpire in the jaw and hitting him in the ear or trying to punch an empire in the jaw and hitting him in the air throwing your bat at him or spitting in his face because we don't seem to everyone disagrees on which is the worst thing here spending the worst for me. It got a five game suspension even with the century later of inflation on what punishment should be Alamar got half as much as Babe Ruth did you guys have to watch the video because the umpires so he's arguing balls and strikes and then he walks away he's out of the picture the umpire throws now and then you just see a bat flying back into the picture. It's amazing. You have to watch it. Oliver actually appealed the suspension two games on marriage. Shell hit John Roseborough in the head with a bat. That's correct that is correct suspended eight games and find what was then a record seventeen hundred fifty fifty dollars which is fifteen thousand dollars today. He was also sued for one hundred ten thousand dollars. That's bad came with a lot of force scary scary. Thank God that umpire was wearing protection. You see what happens. NFL when you give us jags titans paid payday it is I'm going to get to these people. Insulting Stu gods his appearance trying to get away from it the three here. They're just three that I've seen in the last two seconds but people were pouring in with their insults for how you looked on around the horn yesterday. We'll get to that next donlevatar. I have to have a testicular ultrasound. How does this work. What do I have to do do with whom into the room walks a bear of a man he's been dealing with testicles for damn near three decades. I'm terrified stugatz. They have to get on my back. Throw my legs up in the air. Where's my left hand. Go Yeah. I need to Cup my package. I'm saying to myself as I'm I'm doing this. It can't get worse than this. He looks me straight in the eye for the first time we're about to get started and he says I am such a big fan of your TV and radio shows dude. That's the time you choose to tell me that but you're laughing. I am laughing. I'm also mystified. I'm vulnerable. I'm still scared. It sounds like he had a ball. BCC Lisa Libertad show with two guys on ESPN radio so as we were mentioning Stugatz has wanted for years years after much complaining on the air. feuding with media members not understanding why his gas bag ways are an accepted on around around the horns gas bag show. He is now regularly on around the horn. This is something it's fair to say right. You have wanted for fifteen to twenty years. You've wanted this I liked the show. I thought it'd be a good platform for me. just a little window by myself little room just being able to say whatever. I want to say I didn't realize how quickly you have to give your takes and you have to actually have facts for Tony to give you points That's a committed to get used to but yeah I really enjoy it like I love being a part of that show show. I'm guessing you would never know it by my physical appearance but I do love being part of that show. How long has it been on the air. Has Indeed been fifteen years. It's it's pretty close to fifteen fifteen years and so still got and Mike. Can you help me because I'm I'm at a genuine loss for this are there a whole lot a lot of people at ESPN who don't bother to shave before going on television because we have the thing about this. Is that not only only do. We have dollarshaveclub as a sponsor. We've got a room upstairs with a bathroom and a shower where if STU got cared to groom himself even a little little bit in the realm of hygiene. He could do it very easily similar rooms in his house. It's not a special thing that forgets on the way I'm saying we've got we've got four him like literally ten steps away a place where he can look less like Hobo. Oh Mr Pot are you you planning on getting a touch up today. Because at beard is looking a little unkempt I had learned to shave around the beard. I'm asking you forgot this week. I am asking him specifically to give me people on television who are willing on ESPN to do it with stubble because you tell me if this is what I'm giving locks Kellerman damn good job you go there you go as he grows into a foot but right now. He's got stubble working right now as as we speak. I think that's just ten. Am Shadow for Max. I think he has that thing. The Kurt Warner has where he has to shave every three hours Michael Collins mccollum page. We go greenie phase. Greenie had stuff as you're right. It was one of my favorite phases. North Carolina phase people writing these things about those people okay because I it's not just ah this tweet from Ivan Santana saying the obvious. Wow stew looks really really unhealthy. It's also Stugotz looks like he just got off an all weekend bender in Vegas for his Ath appearance Yeesh I'm watching STU gods on around the horn and he looks like the Ashtray on a riverboat casino value stugatz looks like a junkie they brought in from the streets to give sports steaks and finally my aunt aunt and uncle are watching around the horn and they said if STU gods. He looks like that guy who slept in his jacket. He looks like he needs a cigarette. The lighting was a little bit weird. Yesterday I mean we're doing it in a new room a new closet I. I wasn't certain if the camera was on plus. There was a very very good looking paddle. The ice man was there with a clean shaven phase had mean she was there as well and yet Clinton Yates at. I mean that's tough was. Is it a lot of good looking guy to begin with you. Put me those three. I'm looking at a clip from a of you from yesterday and I guess it's because I'm looking at your face right now. which is way worse but you didn't look that bad is okay thank you? I mean I kind of like the five o'clock shadow. I think it's a good look for me. It's why keep going with it. You know the problem. Tony Reality Really puts everyone in losing position because he's so good looking like he should be a lot uglier in that role so that everybody looks great by comparison. How did we omit Tony Reality from our conversation the other day of people at ESPN who would be great at hosting game shows. How did we did. We met him from people that can rock the five o'clock clock shadow well on television. Marty Smith was left out of that list to I think raise it. Can you guys help me with this. Though is this a five o'clock shadow like I don't see other people being told upon five o'clock shadows. Hey you look like a riverboat Casino Ashtray. He's got an expert. He's let it go a little bit. I have yeah I agree. TRIMs is up right right so it's different. Greenie does not trim his up. Someone does that for what we're really talking about. Here is the neck hair because obviously like. Dan has his beard but he cleans it up on the neck. We're talking about the neck. What we're talking about is not looking like a Riverboat Casino Ashtray. It's really one of the worst insults I've ever heard. I think the physical appearance I'm not saying that. The Standard is very high like you guys keep arguing. Hey some people do five o'clock shadow as anyone saying Michael Collins he looks like the Ashtray and a riverboat casino. Is anyone saying Max. Is anyone saying it of Mike. Greenberg is anyone worried about the health of these people based on the the grooming or lack thereof on their fangs generally worried about to Gaza's health so you kind of look like what you ingest thank you. It's fuel. Yes I put my body through. Its bid a tough forty five years there. Can you explain to me though honestly I just WanNa understand stand because you've arrived at the pinnacle of where it is that you want to arrive yeah. Why not buy a few jackets that don't look like you slept in. Why are you bar uh. Why are you still borrowing is. He's jackets on television. It's more affordable. You also have to consider this look. It's his personality and his demo much better. What is he trying to do really by being a clean-shaven gentlemen on around the Horn appealing to opt trying to be because listen. It's the journalism show. There are journalists on there. I'm trying to be the anti journalists. That's what I'm trying to do. Drug Abuse to God's okay. I'm sorry I hadn't realized that you were being Daniel. Annual Day Lewis here in terms of a method actor instead of simply too lazy to shave. I didn't realize that you become a walking to Phoenix in terms of leaving leaving your acting lie. I thought it was simply that you forgot to shave. Don't generally care or cheap. It's not no it's because it's yes says you slumming with the Hobos. You spend all week right with the sleeping with oboe is just to get integrated ED actor again. The proper look. Tim Kirch is GonNa Join US next. If you WANNA get in here seven eight six four five six four eight three seven.

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Bonus - Dark Sky Conversations with Professor Fred Watson

Space Nuts

44:28 min | 1 year ago

Bonus - Dark Sky Conversations with Professor Fred Watson

"Hi It's Andrew here and as you know Fred Meyer taking a little break at the moment while Fred Swans around the Arctic. We'll be back with the first episode of Space Nets for Twenty Twenty Very soon in the meantime now we thought you might like to take a listen to this episode of the new dark skies conversations. PODCAST is coming soon. It features an interview with Fred. It's a great little background As to who he is and what he does when you've been listening to him for a few years but papal ask a Lotta questions of red and his background so just what does an astronomer at large. Do you'll find out in this interview. And of course you can subscribe to dark skies conversations wherever you get your podcast from so sit back relax and enjoy an interview with Fred On aspects and that's platform and keep an eye out for the dark skies conversations podcast and I'll check you again real soon on space nuts hi with a flick of switch. We turn night today and day tonight. We can change seasons actions and states of mind. Light is everywhere used endlessly and very much part of our modern world. But what is it. How do we use it? And how is it changing our environment and behaviors style field sky used to be our evening's entertainment. Now it's net flicks ipads or even a podcast. When was the last time you looked at the night skies? I'm money okay. And this is doc sky conversations the podcast that brings people and science together to share With me today is a straight his astronomer at large Professor Fred Watson an astronomer science communicator working with the Department of Industry Innovation and science US prior to these outlandish role. Fred was the astronomer in charge of the Anglo Australian telescope at Siding Spring Observatory Australia's largest optical telescope. Fred is known for his award. Winning Books Stargazer the life and Times of the telescope wise Uranus upside down and stock craving so had nineteen years as of interviews on the radio. TV and public appearances and is now heading up some tours around the world with Fred Watson Tours. He's most recently well known freeze podcast series space. Nuts Fred is well loved by the Amateur Astronomical Community but few know of his pioneering work on multi object spectroscopy Oris Fascination for optics and binoculars. He's around knowledge of all things. Light place him. Well my first guest on dark sky conversations. Thanks for joining us for it. Thank you for having made a pleasure to be here. Thank you question has to be asked. What does an astronomer at large actually do hopes? Nobody'll find find out so the job is essentially an outreach education and advocacy role role. It's all about trying to spread the word scientists good for people to let the wider public. Know just what an enormous contribution contribution Australia makes to the world of astronomy and to engage with with the wider community internationally so there is now a lot of international involvement in astronomy with things like the space agency and despite the fact that we Australia now has a strategic partnership with the European Southern Observatory which operates the biggest telescopes in the world on the finest observatory site in the world in northern Chile. Right and so why why is it is it is astronomy moving offshore to Chile for example. A really interesting story and depends on how long you've got. The story. Goes back to the nineteen sixties when astronomers realized that because of the advent of wide body jets and cheap F- F- flight relatively cheap air flights. They could put their telescopes where the conditions were best rather than where the strongest happen to be before that strong observatories we're always in cities. Because that's where I live. So there was a worldwide push to find the very best observing sites in the world In during the nineteen sixty s and that means sites that are dark without light pollution. That's of course a given start with which we might talk a bit more rebel against but also sites which have clear whether a particular sites which are very stable atmospheres a a a low level of atmospheric turbulence and so Sykes were identified. All over. The world. Australia siding Spring Mountain was discovered it to be probably one of the best places to do. Astronomy visible light astronomy Australia. But we now know that some of the other ascites in the world are even better and in particular it turns out that you need a place on a mountain top. Maybe three thousand five hundred meters is kind of twelve thirteen thousand feet on the western seaboard of a continent. That's what you need to get this spectacular atmospheric stability and and the problem is. We don't have that in Australia. We we don't have a mountain. That high on the Western seaboard. I mean we should pay somebody to build one if we could we do that so observatories elsewhere have better sites and that's what's happened. The astronomical infrastructure has concentrated concentrated on those sites principally in the southern hemisphere in northern Chile in Northern Hemisphere. It's principally begawan defer wire which has the best conditions in the world world. And so that's why we engage with with international. So you mentioned there are a couple of times light. The first being that light is moved away from light pollution. So what does that mean to stretch of what is like pollution. And why. Why did you have to move away from it? So many people don't realize that the night sky itself has its own luminosity which comes partly from a AH atoms in the upper atmosphere of the earth relaxing after a hard day in the Sunday. Get excited and they released that radiation after dark. There's also dust in the solar system mm-hmm which lights up the night sky and a very fame background of stars and galaxies. They all contribute to a natural sky brightness so astronomers are always battling thing against that an often what they're doing is studying faint objects whose light is only maybe one percent brighter the this natural background. So they're right down there up against what nature throws at you if you then put in artificial light you lose the signal together. It's as simple as that. So you simply cannot tolerate any artificial light pollution for this kind of groundbreaking research and AH AH. Are there technologies or anything that we can use to try and adapt conditions or is it just simply that we have to have no pollution. Yes it really is. It really is that you can't have light pollution. The problem the problem is astronomers. Look across cross what we call the whole visible wave band so there measurements are made in all colors of light from deep violet and beyond in what we call coli ultraviolet right up the wavelengths scale to red light and far infrared light and far infrared light. Those are. That's what you might say. Covers the the the visible light waves and light. Pollution tends to occupy much of that spectrum for a while there was an enthusiasm among astronomers for what it called low pressure sodium vapor lamps. Yeah street particularly the street lighting getting because they emit light effectively of one single wavelength are in. July's very familiar to people. See You could Aratu Kate so what that's what's doing. He's only polluting that one little bit of the spectrum and the rest of the spectrum is much much clearer but you never get a city or a community community that only has so every wondering outdoor housing lights normally incandescent lights mercury lights all the rest of it. Actually it turns out now so From the Vantage Point Twenty Nineteen that Sodium Vapor Street lights are almost obsolete. And that's for a number of reasons operationally operationally for for for councils and bodies like that that actually operate them. These sodium vapor lights have some disadvantages right. Yeah so I've heard you talk previously about a rainbow of light that you that you can study and you've just mentioned in the band of flight. Could you explain a little bit about the bar. Code of information that you get from from from this rainbow this spectrum of color that you're that astronomers use so. Yeah Ah I mean it's a really fascinating story. Goes back to Newton who a played around with a prison in the sixteen sixty s and discovered that you can shine wide wight light for example sunlight which effectively why even though it looks but yellowish he could pass that light through prison and break it up into this rainbow of colors. uh-huh Red Orange Yellow Green Blue and violet indigo. Isn't there people used to say those indigo as well but it's not really there so the spectrum colors which merge into one another so it's actually a continuum and it was Newton who coined the term spectrum in fact back a little bit later than that in the early eighteen hundreds around eighteen hundred to a scientist by the name of Williston noticed that if he put sunlight through a prism. Did it in a way that allowed you to look at specific wavelengths. Sorry look at specific color. Shouldn't use that. That came later. Williston notice that there were dark lines crossing the spectrum of the Sun and he thought Oh this must be just where these colors join together but ah later in the nineteenth century it was realized that those dark lines actually are the imprints of atoms in the atmosphere of the Sun. Who and the positioning of the lines actually depends on which elements elements are producing them? So what you've got is this array of lines and in the son's case it's it's tens of thousands of them The the early guys could only see a handful but now we recognize there. There are very many of them and each one is the signature of a particular a particular atom elements like Hydrogen Yup. Yep exactly the most. Common Element is hydrogen but we also find iron calcium sodium. All of those things are imprinted on the sun spectrum. So if you use a device vice to to form the spectrum then you can tell with absolute clarity what the sun is made of. So what is the device to ease. It's called a spectrum. Graph actually clean in early days. It was called a spectra scope which is just a something for looking at the word. Scopus Spectrum Spectroscopy. Lets you look at it and the early days when we started the first people who really put spectrum together. We're at the turn of the of the nineteenth nineteenth century so the likes of Williston. Yes that's right. It was actually two German scientists by the name of kickoff onto Bunsen pair of them. They were the guys who really built the first decent spectra scope and they were the people who worked out what was going on in the atmosphere appear the sun and it was actually an Englishman by the name of William Huggins later. Sir William Huggins who tried that technique on the stars ause realized that he could tell what the stars were made of was it. was there a comment that I remember some way that someone said that we would never know what all this that was. A Frenchman by the name of. Auguste comte was a philosopher and in eighteen. Thirty five he wrote in a book no we will never know what the stars are made of. We will never no the densities sizes. We just won't know that temperatures. He said we'll never know these things and actually in that same year. A demonstration took place in Dublin. In fact by a man called Charles Wheat Stone doing more or less the same as it was talking about with Williston but he it was using metal two pieces of metal with the spark passing between them and he realized that if you looked at the spectrum of the spark I told him what metal the electrodes who made of and that was once again building up to this idea kickoff Brunson were slightly later. They were around the eighteen sixties. So comp got it wrong we actually know a lot of stuff about this does go to complete. So what other information does like give us about the universe hard to overestimate what we can learn about the spectrum of objects coming from the universe so not only do you get for example exemplify looking at stars you not only get composition a starts composition. You can also tell whether it's moving towards or away from us and how Fast Austin moving what you did with the radio velocity. That's right that's something called. The radial velocity its its velocity along the line of sight and and so measuring the velocity of a star towards or away from you is pretty straightforward to do the spectrum of a look actually took until the eighteen ninety s before another German called the handle it better fogel time. He was the first guy to measure of raining. So yes you can tell the speeds also you can tell whether an object's rotating you can see that from the spectrum. E can even tell whether it has a magnetic connectic field because a magnetic field actually splits up the spectrum lines Z.. But wait there's because you can use and and this is technology that we really have only we've only had for the last twenty four twenty five years you can use a spectrum graph to see whether a star is moving slightly towards or away from you as it is pulled this way and that by a planet in orbit around. You can't see the planet is too far away to faint but you can see that. This research has allowed us to find exit planet. Exactly what we call exoplanets or extra solar planets and how many have we found. Now it's swell over three thousand the Yes. There is a different method. That's now used to detect them that. The the methods called the Doppler wobble technique the one I just mentioned because the doppler effect another German scientists. This is the effect of the of the wavelength of the light changing slightly by the towards or away from the motion of a star. And but the what happens is if you've got a planet going around to start pulls the star Dr this way and that and the the doppler effect is measurable for the Movement of the story itself. It's a matter of only meters per second for an object. The size is of Jupiter but something the size of the centimeters per second these tiny tiny houses. They're they're not even walking pace. They're very very slow. And yet you can muse light to measure those and so as you're saying I'm realizing how critical technologies with this and how how much information there is that we could about universe but we we're actually impairing these with pollution that's right yes that's correct Having said that all the world's leading observatories and you can these probably half a dozen of them that will be right at the top of the heat there in terms of the the excellence of the sites that they're on they're all protected with legislation to prevent there being undue light pollution and the legislation simply says that if you've got if you've got a development nearby within up to while in in the case of the siding uh-huh Otari in Australia it's up to a hundred kilometers with two hundred kilometers under certain conditions developments within area have to comply with Orwell's observatories all leading. Pretty well yeah. It varies The the major observatories in on the island of La Palma in the Canary Islands. This this grey observatory there in the Northern Hemisphere. The Hawaiian one's the Chilean ones. There are protections which are more or less effective depending on you the local circumstances just like to go back a little bit to talk about spectroscopy again and specifically ask you about your role well in developing multi object spectroscopy. I had never. I know what that is. Please explain an executive order it. Does this marvelous marvelous technique invented by William Huggins effectively the idea of using a spectroscopy for a spectrum graph which records the spectrum originally it was photographic now hold on electrically to workout. What's going on in the heavens? That became very much stock in trade astronomers during the first seventy years of the twentieth century. Words up until the nineteen eighties. It still is but the a big change happened in the early nineteen eighties. Because in the early days you had to meet your observations one star at the time. It was the only way a telescope under spectograph combination could work then in the late one thousand nine hundred seventy s a man with us absolutely delightful name Roger Angell who looked to the heavens German Brit. He works at the University of Arizona Eh. He's retired now. Still one of American astronomer astronomy very favorite strenuous Roger. Angell thought well outside outside the box in terms of how you could use technology to to you know improve astronomy and he got mixed up with fiber optics now fiber optics were until nineteen seventy. Were essentially an entertaining diversion. What what they are is stones of glass very fine strands of what we now use for fines and yes? That's right exactly. It's actually not quite a few silica which is classy. Material material drawn into these fines strands seldom more than a tenth of a millimeter diameter with the hair. It's it's yes that's about twice the width of very very fine. And they have the property that like put light in at one end and it will come out of the the other now they were known back in the nineteen fifties lava lamp lava lamp different ones. And the Yes. That's right all right. Yeah go sorry for my aside. There they were known back in the nineteen fifties these fiber optics but it was only in nineteen seventy that the corning glass works in the United States manage to draw fibers. Because that's how you make them start off with a block of glass and then you melt it and pull it out into these strengths. And they manage to draw fibers with extremely low losses by that. It means that if you put light in at one end most of it comes out the other disruption eruption. Well it's it's attenuation is. The technical is a reduction in the amount of light absorbed by the fiber before that you put light in at one into not tiny dribble came out of the but from nine hundred seventy with these what were called low loss optical fibers that's when they became a potential chill for the communications industry and so Calling it it allows sound and light to pass through it does allow any other it allows. There's light to pass through it. You Can put light in at one end and it will come out the other if you want to transmit sound through it. You've got to turn that sound signal into light clever modulating citing a light source you imprint. A sound wave on through and and that transmit through the fiber comes out the other end. You need decode and you get the sound route. So that's how communications work but astronomers and Roger Angell in particular. He thought well. These things are brilliant because astronomers are always jealously regarding the amount of light that they receive because it is so faint usually we're talking about single photons. Individual particles light so can can we use these newfangled optical fibers and in fact he's first idea was to have many many telescopes smallish telescopes all coupled together with optical fibers. So Oh you gather the light from all these telescopes and bring it back to a single place and you cannot do all the light together on one single object or one single object. That's right but then he turned the idea on its head and realized that with one big telescope which is looking at an area of sky instead of just taking one star or Galaxy Alexey from within that field of view you can actually use these optical fibers to line per fiber on many many objects simultaneously. So let me get this right. We have a field of sky. We have maybe a planet or is that too close. We don't bother with planets looking at enough galaxies and fire off stars and we could have fifteen or twenty items in sky and we could be looking at all of them and getting this barcode information from the stars Civil Tony's because you you can put a fiber on each one and in fact the first one I built actually had thirty nine optical fibers which by the standards of the day were quite quite large means thirty thirty nine objects simultaneously. So what what Roger Angell duty you got a PhD student. By the name of John Hill to work on this build something called Medusa which Medusa head thank you and that had think twenty-five fibers and they tried it out on a telescope in Arizona at the Steward Observatory and it worked. It was a technique that worked really well L. But then astronomers Australia got hold of the idea and in particular an engineer at the Angle Shirley Telescope by the name of Peter Gray. He worked out that you could engineer this thing. In a far more effective way the Medusa I worked with Peter. He was working with the anglo-australian telescope. I worked with a small telescope telescope called the United Kingdom Schmidt telescope which has a very wide field of view and together we produced a kind of workable optical tickle fiber systems for these two telescopes which kind of took the lead in the world on this science. Could you tell us the names of these. Well Peter Peterbilt you built the. What was it called fiber optic coupler psychot- remember the name but it turned into fo cap that was the acronym I built? Something called the fiber linked array imagery for matter which was flare then flare worse built in the early nineteen eighties. It was the first multi-fibre telescope spectroscopy system that coupled telescope to a spectrum graph which was actually stationary in the dome. Now that sounds weird an esoteric but what it meant was the spectrum of which is a very delicate piece of equipment was not riding around on the back of the telescope. It was fixed on the floor and was incredibly stable. And that's so we were the first to do that. So flair was the pioneer. Then I built a second version. Because flair had certain inadequacies the second one was the panoramic area coverage with higher efficiency. which was panache panache? A Well what clearly came next finesse. Until one of my colleagues said Venus stands for fails to interest nearly everyone saves spectrograph engineers engineers well. She called it flat to then evolved to a robotic system with more boring name of sixty F- with one one hundred fifty fibers that was commissioned in two thousand one and now a building an amazing machine called Taipan which uses things called starbucks so each optical fiber sixty had robot a single robot move the fibers around but with Taipan h fiber dopey. Three hundred in the end has its own micro robot round meanwhile anglo-australian telescope back in one thousand nine hundred ninety six built something called to death to the F. stands for two degree field. That's the amount of sky the thing sees in two F. Four hundred fibers but after tell you the aero which now stands for Australian astronomical optics used to be the Australian Astronomical Observatory. Hey always building. A system with more than four hundred fibers for telescope in Europe a European European telescope straight cuts way up doesn't it. It really does punch above its weight with regards to -nology develops right. That's why Australian astronomers Jonas have had such an given where small country because we have this equipment that we build it probably more effectively than anywhere else Somebody said we should call ourselves. Fibers are us. Because that's what we do. We do optical fibers the tech. The technique technique is in use around the world but many of the ones that are used elsewhere ones that have been built started struggling anticipate so just keeping bring on technology. Same here I heard Margaret Atwood before papal. She's the person that wrote. The Maidens Tail Modem Handmaiden handmaidens and. She comment was that old. Technologies have got good use a bad use and stupid. I use that we never considered and just thinking about lights and particularly with astronomy. What would you think the good the bad and the stupid well look for optical astronomy that's visible light astronomy not now talking about radio astronomers rexroad strong because these these are all different disciplines? Although we're all looking at the same things in a different way and often those results all piece together optical astronomers and and they're talking trades light so they are obsessed with light a more especially obsessed with with actually getting the very the best information from lies so the good is what we learn from from the from from the sky by Sifting light through the spectrum and other types of interest yep yep the baddies light pollution. So that's when light. which is it's been used for completely innocent purpose but gets out of hand in particularly in the light plumes of cities and and really goes back to the early twentieth century when councils putting lights with really no regard to what that was doing tonight sky because we simply simply never thought about it was becoming a problem by the time of the Second World War? It's really interesting. Is that in Los Angeles which is very next very very near the Mount Wilson Observatory in fact exceed Los Angeles from Mount Wilson. Where at the time? The biggest telescope in the world was during the second world. War centuries had had blackouts in order to to mitigate the possibility of invasion and during that time huge astronomical discoveries as were made because the the night sky koby seeing properly from moments again So it was inadvertent. So that's the bad side just on that I. I've attended some conferences in the U. K.. And one of the issues that they have when they talk about. Trying to mitigate light pollution the K.. Is that if you start talking to pay pooped in that sort of generation of about turning of streetlights and they feel like it's taking them back to that so I just like the blackout out to do that in blackout. Yes or no. I remember people saying that's true but it's not a blackout. I mean what we're talking about now is good lighting eh because this been huge progress in the last twenty years with understanding the ills of light pollution and not just for astronomers where the where the least least important in many ways of of the consequences of Bob Lighting. I again when I talk to groups about pollution. I often or haven't often and but I have been asked by people worldwide. Do we have to keep the lights down for the astronomers. When you've got a whole heaven stars you know? Why can't they study the start of the left or the brightest star or whatever and I think in some ways we lost that argument where we talked thirty years ago when when the International Dark Sky Association started and it was astronomers saying are we losing our night sky that that story was lost on the general public? I didn't understand the information that you're getting about heaven. That's probably true thing I'm most people think an astronomer is middle age bald man with a white coat. Who's got a long spindly telescope? And just spend his nights looking through uh-huh nothing could be further from the truth. It's all about you know. Well directed a scientific problems. We're trying to understand the universe because that understanding my actually actually turn out to be really useful to us one day and it's it's conducted in a very very progressive ways. Not just looking mistake. The sake of looking were studying and of course. The great thing is that it's no longer and more pulled middle aged man we we are. How far more diverse? So that's the good in a bed. Yeah stupid stupid. Use of technology that maybes. He's come through astronomy through light and and I know of things you talked about. Doppler effect isn't so I actually almost Lump the fiber optics work that I was talking about into their it certainly quirky. Because in you know I in one thousand nine hundred seventy. Nobody had thaw in this direction. It was Roger Angell towards the end of the nineteen seventies. We're thinking outside the box or this to what you could use these technologies for and I do remember number when I started working on this in one thousand. Nine hundred to building flared the first fiber optic system for the Schmidt Telescope. One of my colleagues. Call it what sins folly because nobody believed that it would do anything useful when it would just it was just be. Quirky is like is a bit like back in the postwar period the the then director of the Mount Strong Observatory which was Australia's Australia National Observatory at that time amounts from knowing camera the Commonwealth Observatory Sir. Richard Woolley. Somebody said to him. So why do you think radio astronomy will. We'll now ten years time he said forgotten and I think people thought that about the fiber optics. Where do you think fiber optic million ten years time forgotten? It's not going to be used on. The biggest telescope is already being used on the biggest telescopes in the world. It is absolutely revolutionized the science because what it lets she do as I said we didn't carry through the conversation that lets you look at many objects at a time. Four hundred eighty four thousand on the on the Vista Telescope which is in Chile operated by the Europeans that then allows you to gather enormous data sets of the most intimate statistics of stars and galaxies and quasars all these objects in the in the wider universe. And by doing that you can first of all you can. New Population Census Studies. You can look at the trends. You can start discovering a lot about the evolution of the universe. It's how we know for example old the the the Big Bang model of the origin of the universe how that is almost certainly the the the correct model because we can see its imprint. All over all over the millions of galaxies that we now have three dimensional positions for thanks to the fiber optic technique so it's kind of revolutionized that study but he also shows up the real oddballs. Tell if you're looking at you know four thousand stars at a time. You're going to find things that are very very unusual. And they're the ones that point the way to things like new physics the the understanding that relativity and quantum theory might not be all that there is these. Are Things things that we know the best models of reality we've got that we still but we still find gaps in the what we're looking for is what might be hidden hidden underneath which could lead to all kinds of things like teleportation travel all US grace and it actually leads me into the other question ahead. His real basic one but what is the speed of light. The speed of light is talking about Einstein's we know from him so yes. Is that going back to nine. Thousand Nine hundred five when Arnstein published his special theory of relativity which these who got words. But that's a theory of the way objects move and it sort of built on what Newton wrote in sixteen eighty seven in his book. Doc Principia the PRINCIPIA. He wrote his laws of motion. which which fine and work well until you get near the speed of light? The speed of light was already the well known at that time. Three hundred thousand kilometers per second. How by actually? It was first measured by a Danish astronomer in sixteen eighty seven by looking at the moons of Jupiter a man called Roma he Worked I think he'd Copenhagen studied the moons of Jupiter and realize is the way they behaved as he could see them in. The Sky meant that there was a time lag in the travel. Time of the light from the backside of Jupiter due to the front side of Jupiter analyzed. All that cracking good answer for the for the speed of light is actually French. Physicists in the late nineteenth century really kind of tidy down but what was curious and this is what fed into on Stein's thinking was that everybody expected expected. The speed of light would be something variable so that if you think about the speed of sound earth the speed the sound is carried through and if you're on a moving object like a car and the speed of sound changes for you because it's your station when you have a cargo past you can hear. Well that's the doppler effect. That's going back to what we're talking about earlier but the everybody everybody expected that if you if you say if you were looking at a source of light and that light is reaching you at three hundred thousand kilometers per second if if you're stationary yeah that's fine but the thinking was if in fact you're moving towards that light at one hundred thousand kilometers per second then then you should see speed as being less than or more than what it actually was. It turns out that the speed of light is. He's fixed in a vacuum. Does not how you moving. How the light source is moving? It is always three hundred thousand kilometers per second and one went. Once he realized is that was actually confirmed. By two Americans Mickelson Morley in the eighteen eighty S. The speed of light is in variant and announced. I'm I'm fed into his work and realized that actually the speed of light is almost mystical. It's it because space can vary space can change shape it depending on your motion and time can change depending on your motion but the speed of light doesn't is the is the thing that's constant absolutely constant. Yeah there is. There is a group of small group of scientists. One of whom is based here in Australia. John Webb who's Nelia Leo was somewhere else in the world. Which is why it's called the worldwide web? John Webb is a he believes he has evidence that the speed of light was different in the early universe Looking back thirty point five thirty point six billion years the beginning of the universe was thirteen. Point eight billion years ago to the best of our knowledge and he looks back nearly all that way and thinks he can see evidence that the speed of light has changed. It's a very speculative result nominee. Astronomers believe in but John Webb is convinced without from the University of New South Wales. We'll keep an interesting an eye on that. To see how it progresses. Yeah so when. When was the last time you looked at the night sky last night? Did you look to the stars. And so yeah. There's a bit of cirrus around. It's as long a brilliant night. Yeah look the best time you looked at what. What's the most memorable experience you've had in the nighttime environment? It's because my a life has been in astronomy and it goes back a long way. There are many many That I could that I could talk about one of them was in the mid to early. Two thousand two thousand six two thousand seven late in two thousand and six a colleague of Mine Robert macnaughton in siding spring discovered a comet. That was his job. He discovered comets but This one turned out to be incredibly bright and in the early months of two thousand seven it was just dazzling in a in western evening sky. Not where I lived at that time was totally crews are particular does. Yeah not all of them do some some go around the Sun Many of them are in orbit around the Sun but comics actually come from the depths of the solar system. In fact almost halfway to the next nearest star there's Sort of shallow of these icy objects called the ORT cloud named after a man called Yan art who was a Dutch stronger. In the Mid Twentieth Century must be a cloud of icy objects out there which fall inwards towards the solar system and when they get near the Sun the ice evaporates and they become luminous right. Yeah he was. That's right and that's how we that's how we know about comets but comment one of these. That came out of the Blue Egg. Robert detected it when it was quite faint but it turned out to be probably the most spectacular comet of the century so far it may be the most spectacular for the whole century. It was just so that's one but I I always have very fond memory of a night light. which would have been in the early nineteen eighty s and it was when I was building? The first of these fiber optic systems the flare thing that I mentioned that was a device that as I said used optical fibers to pick the light of stars from the focus of the telescope and brought them the fibers brought them out of the telescope to a basically a little thing that just line them all up in a straight line now we straight line was about half an inch long thirty millimeters or something AH thirty nine optical fibers in it each of them a about a tenth of meter in diameter and it was a crystal clear Leeann. I and I got the telescope all set up until this was right at the beginning of these experiments and I picked up this little fiber AIBA unit from the floor which I knew had the light of stars coming down in the end and I just saw a line of little lights. It'll all different colors because stars are different colors. Color is dependent on the temperature and it was magical. These are standing there withholding style in my hand with with these these. These thirty nine five lit up shining away and it was the real reason why it was. A buzz is because actually quite hard to get light down fibers become very very precisely at that point. I knew I could do it. And I knew the instrument was going to work. Did mazing so just to finish shop like to ask you if you had your soapbox and three minutes if time what do you want people to know about light and light pollution Russian. Okay so this is where I become. Well an advocate. It's not quite activists activism. It's very gentle activist. uh-huh why do we want moderate change. When do we want it in due course? So that's my soap box and what I would tell people will is that he asked them to think about whether light is going. Light basically goes on forever. I mean it does the dwindling away to very faint levels but if you're sending a beam of light upwards into the sky what am I going to do is going to light up the molecules of the atmosphere via and spoil that view of the sky for somebody else. And it's a death by a thousand cuts so individually our contribution to light pollution is very low but collectively when you've got a city like Sydney with more than four million people living there. Nobody thinks about where the light is going. Then you've got a city in which it is impossible to see the stars house so it's just to think about lighting up only what you want to light up. Keep the light below the horizontal plane. So none of it's going going up into the sky and there's a subtlety here. We now know that like that is rich in blue and that's really Dazzling white light that we getting used bright white light emission dial diodes light-emitting diodes. Led that light we now know is not good for human health at night because it fools circadian rhythms into thinking. It's still daylight screws up everything so think about Light Posi answer. Thanks for you time to great pleasure. Anytime thank you. Well that's it docks guy conversations this week. We hope you enjoyed it. We'd love to hear feedback thoughts. Were if you've got any questions about lot. Pollution suspended the name out. PODCAST DOC. Sky Travel Dot Com. Today you or Instagram's is to grandma's at least subscribe to our podcast at I tunes Stitcher spotify or wherever you get your podcast from. And why are they give us a reviewed. Thanks again for me this week until next week Matz Out uh-huh.

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The Ultimate Guide To Unschooling: Top Tips To Create Free-Thinking, Resilient, Creative Young Humans Who Can Thrive In A Modern World.

Ben Greenfield Fitness

1:24:09 hr | 1 year ago

The Ultimate Guide To Unschooling: Top Tips To Create Free-Thinking, Resilient, Creative Young Humans Who Can Thrive In A Modern World.

"Just he's not wearing clothes. I think we underestimate the value of play and the value downtime <hes> in that that is what use your brain rest and start thinking on this episode of the Ben Greenfield Fitness podcast education is being disrupted now. It's like the king who nobody acknowledges learn what they WANNA learn performance nutrition longevity ancestral living biohacking lacking and much more. My name is Ben Greenfield. Welcome to the show. This podcast is also brought to you by organic fi glow. This is a new product from organic. I haven't told you about this very much but it's their plant based based beverage powder that actually allows your body support your body producing its own Collagen for doing things like beauty and anti-aging smoothing fine coffee not only cupped meaning it flavored flavor tested higher but it also is completely completely guilt free and healthy rich unadulterated antioxidant full kion coffee one of the only organic coffees that exists it is something that we tested against and <hes> well for my First Cup for my next several cups. Sometimes I add things like mushrooms and different CA- cows up like that but just one quick shot up you can find podcast not only on Apple <hes> which was formerly itunes I think apple podcast but I mean health spotify flavor which is absolutely wonderful. They put some plant based bamboo silica in there to help support Collagen production. They've got highly onic acid and tremila mushroomed L. hydrate mold mycotoxin free more than sixty other coffees we tested including some popular brands you might be aware of we're actually positive for mold and other contaminants and our recently I gave my twin eleven year old boys river and Taryn the option to not continue to go to the private school that greenlee potent fat loss aid and I personally have a cup of coffee nearly every morning in a fasted state fast twelve to sixteen hours every single day get up have a against forty nine other leading brands of coffee got double the antioxidant levels on average of all the coffees we tested against some cases more than ten times <hes> one hundred mold in lines and wrinkles protecting your skin almost like edible sunscreen from sun exposure and toxins but it tastes a lot better than sunscreen tastes really good raspberry lemon as their main. Tom And you get ten percent off the coffee over. Get K. I. O. N. DOT COM just use discount code be G. F. ONE ZERO AT GET KION DOT COM rally. This is a podcast about the future of education and unscrewing and even if you don't have kids or you're not an educator. I think you're going to get a lot out of this. A Cup of coffee gopher walk come back. Take a cold shower and I maintain like four to six percent body fat year round. I don't put anything my coffee except coffee. Learn a lot more about it. In today's podcast <hes> one learns through experiences through life through play and not through a formal education or slash Ben and the code that you can use over there is Ben G Two zero to get twenty percents off. You can consume this stuff anytime day. Organic Dot com slash not you can read more about our rigorous testing process and also grab a bag of some of the most flavorful coffee you're ever going to taste. If you go to get kion dot com I go podcast one overcast anywhere one of my favorites. <hes> APPs actually cast box which is pretty cool. It's got like an audio search engine that allows Lash Ben. Hey so it's no secret if you follow me on Instagram or listen to a few things that I've said on the podcast before that uh hey so often get a chance to talk education and school but this stuff is important and I think it's going to be right up your they were just finishing up fifth grade in and to instead transition into a form of schooling called unschooled Ling in which in a nutshell although you'll now this podcast is brought to you by one of the best ways to dump copious amounts of chlorine genyk acid in your body. There's a recent study that showed that Clark genetic acid is an extremely hydrate the skin extremely effectively and did I mention taste absolutely amazing like a refreshing raspberry lemon flavored beverage you get as you to search the actual audio podcast not just the show notes and play it one two three four times speed download books etc so cast box checked out twenty percent off of this or any of the fine products from organic by when you just go to organic Fai dot com slash Ben that's organic by with an I dot com slash about creative ideas. Were trying to fill in all that summertime for kids but keeping him busy in activities they need to take ownership of their education and or in a classroom setting per se now these days there's kind of three different ways in education. There's there's home schooling and I was personally home and then there is on schooling and I recently read to really help me wrap my head around how to piece together really was was one of the best guys I ever read when it comes to this whole world of unsettling it's called on schooling to university on schooling to university diversity and this book outlines how unschooled learned through things like play and volunteering and Games and sports and mentorship herships and travel and basically just <hes> life in addition to that it outlines how apparent job is to simply provide in school k through twelve and then there is a public or a private school. You know it's kind of a more traditional obstinately since the mid eighteen hundreds of traditional option you're a good robust education and life experience for my children a very excellent recent and relevant book that really wchs and projects and museums and filled trips and volunteer programs museums theatres mentorship programs apprenticeship S- <hes> Internet the library you humans have been around most of young people have been educated into society becoming contributing members of the sure <hes> schools as we know it today are are kind of the new kid on the block when you think of how long the list goes on and on and it's a very very well written in thorough guide as a matter of fact. It's so good I decided I wanted to get the author on today's show. Oh Judy welcome to the show. Thank you Ben. I'm happy to be here yeah. I'm very excited to have you on. Education is not something that I visit village to gather the children and <hes> keep them busy while we go off to the factories to work and and that established actress to work but then we all have the problem of what do we do with the children so the answer was. Let's hire educated person in the is it on the show quite as much as I visit things like <hes> you know workouts and supplements in in biohacking and detoxification and all sorts inched in the industrial revolution around eighteen fifty where the upstart of factories occurred and parents were shipped off to factories it's of crazy fringe fitness and health and wellness topics but education is something near and dear to my heart and I know that many of my listeners have asked me about in an environment rich in educational resources for their children things like books and videos and computer games and video games and workbooks had been greenfield fitness dot com slash unscrambling to university. That's been greenfield fitness dot com slash unscrewing to university so the group through the family through apprenticeship through <hes> working around the home around home businesses and that kind of changed now the author of the book on Schooling University is Judy are all and <hes> Judy is a keynote speaker she taught for Alberta Health Services for thirteen years and she even founded the nonprofit organizations attachment parenting Candida Association and unschooled she is a distinguished toastmasters she gives presentations all over the world and she specializes in parenting and education. She's been on all data <hes> magazines like today's parents and Canadian living and Parents magazine the Globe and Mail and Metro <hes>. She's a certified Canadian family life educator on schooling candidate association. If you visit her Amazon page which I will link to in the show notes <hes> you will see that she's not only written on schooling university but she's also written a a ton of different books on parenting on discipline on education and beyond <hes> she is of course apparent herself of five children and like the history of schools in terms of win schools at least the modern schools as we know them today when those were established and why can you get into that and <hes> several of those are university graduates who also self directed their own education so she knows what she's talking about people and and the show notes for everything that Judy I discuss as well as links to her books her website any other resources that we mentioned can all be found at all sorts of magazines and TV shows like C._B._C. and see T._v. Global which as you might know by the names are mostly a Canadian networks because she's up in Canada out some of these concepts that you discuss in the book so I think this is going to be a a wonderful wonderful expiration and you know if I could if I could kind of start off uh-huh and I was very intrigued by this concept in your book <hes> with the question about why schools exist in the first place like kind of the first modern schools now they're <hes> definitely authors and experts believe that there was a hidden agenda in that in that <hes> it's a great way due to indoctrinate the kids into obedience in to <hes> understanding a common philosophy am and and the teaching profession is one stressful profession and same with kids nowadays when they go to school they can experience for teachers to their their the province of the system right now and <hes> they're cram between parents and administrators and children experience a lot of toxic stress through the effects of bullying through <hes> an IM- personal curriculum through who expectations placed on them that are not appropriate so where the system has failed us. I think is insisting on a one size fits all system and we know now about learning styles not children learn the same way we know bureaucracy so so that grew and then <hes> curriculum grew the whole institution grew into a education system that was designed to kind of create obedient little factory workers absolutely and not just factory workers but for how <hes> how bullying affects them and how <hes> different ways that kids can learn and especially comes to this idea of sitting in a classroom <hes> in in kind of this formal educational scenario Surrey but <hes> when you look at the modern school system a lot of critical thinking is not encouraged just because it's a huge institutional our life or play and you know as you say in the book I think the way you phrase it is that children are pretty much now viewed based on the modern education system as buckets rockets to be filled with knowledge and in not necessarily little humans who should be experiencing life in perhaps a little bit more practical hands <hes> <hes> kids to go into the military to be obedient citizens and quash critical thinking now I mean you could call it a conspiracy get into into into the failures that you perceive this modern way of educating those failures exist okay sure I see billion dollar industry in one hundred and fifty years in so much that we don't even know of life without school like not if they can choose what they want to learn so it brings out their creativity their critical thinking and the system is set up to not and and not necessarily meant to be you know kind of placed in one classroom and have a bunch of knowledge and facts dumped into their head when it comes to the best way to educate them but can you hands-on way exactly and the more we know about the brain and how the brain develops the brain interacts with its environment. It's not a bucket that you just do their day with you know whether that's with the family and the community or in an institution with peers yeah and you know when when it crammed full of facts and figures it's an interactive organ that <hes> interacts West where kids spend most that has been the norm since the mid or early eighteen hundreds where in your opinion has that kind of failed US lie Fox's body in in different ways and has long term life effects for for children but not just children not just students but the whole system is stressful for ah it's so embedded into our culture our media no yeah it seems insane to even question the fact that a child might learned through apprenticeship cer- mentorships or or encourage individualism because it can't. It's a bureaucracy while I think the other kind of elephant in the room here is the entire digital revolution I mean shopping <unk> disrupted the way we television and movies and the way we digest music and the way that we attend conference and an education doesn't seem ah well actually if if you wanna tie it into health and fitness schools have stress rate and we know now that stress impacts so you know it's disrupted and you talk about this in the book. You know it's disrupted. You know taxi cabs and transportation. It's disrupted dating. It's disrupted okay and I realized that's kind of a loaded question but we have plenty of time on the show. You know you you kind of alluded to the fact that children's Blaine brains are highly plastic and and could use is that a conspiracy theory. I mean like when when we adopted this during the industrial revolution in the eighteen hundreds wasn't originally based on like a Prussian education seem to have changed that dramatically in the era of a digital revolution where Google allows you to learn anytime meaning that perhaps APPs the memorization of facts and knowledge that one could simply look up on the Internet you know as bad as that might sound it could be relatively irrelevant compared who life meaning like right now as we are recording this podcast. My kids are out on the patio at the table on the patio with a general contractor and <hes> a man who is teaching them math geometry and woodworking because their entire math project <music> out there but the numbers of home schooling is growing worldwide across all the countries and and what else is growing is when it when it comes to the way that they're learning agrees with their learning style or their personality type but it's very strange in that so many so many elements of society being with with drugs and substance abuse with peer pressure with a lot of kind of societal issues which influence their decision to a home school myself and times on unfixed as with fix classes and fixed subjects that might not even involve something they're even remotely interested in or something you know when that availability like you said to access different courses not just from the government in your jurisdiction but from you can take a course on coding Jewish in for a good private school where perhaps there is a little bit less of of the bullying or or the peer pressure issues that that Golan read about where where kids can learn anytime any way anything they want that interest them but yet still kids are being forced outing from Germany now you don't have to take the school approved course and it's that open doors that <hes> is incredible really don't seem to involve a lot of those issues granted. I realize some of those things are only accessible to people who could afford to pay the higher tuition direction and whether or not blows over in the wind you know so so that's the type of life experience that appeals to me when it comes to unscrambling but they seem to have evolved the digital revolution yet school seems kind of guess for lack of a better phrase old school control who owns the education right so in the difference between homeschooling is the parents tend to control John however what what really drew Mito home or to unsettling rather was this idea of experiencing experiencing an education through Oh yes school education is it is being disrupted now now. It's it's like the king who nobody acknowledges. He's not consider things but in in my case I'm not as concerned about those things like they're. They're good private schools in my area that really gathered around the kitchen table with mom and dad or Tudor something a little bit different so so what exactly is on schooling. How would you define it? UNSCRAMBLING wearing clothes like it's not I think that was emperor. The emperor with no closing it's not publicly was to spend six hours a day in an institution with a prescribed curriculum that they may or not be interested in but the numbers appearance pulling their kids <hes> on whatever topic we're talking about so the difference between unscrewing homeschooling and school is a matter of architecture. They're they're learning Google sketch up but that is their education and their test is there pass fail is whether or not they're tree Ford actually finishes construction throw the process in the learning and the curriculum where unscrambling is the learner controls all those things <hes> and school winging as empowering the learner to choose what they learn when they learn if they learn and how they learn and we're we're interested in home schooling me for them. It was a little bit more related to some of the things that you alluded to you know they. They both had issues with bullying. Oh well obviously school controls it the difference between unsettling and homeschooling and school is that as you describe your kids back for the summer is building a tree for two. They're building Fort Chipmunk. They're learning trigonometry. They're learning woodworking skills. They're learning design and <unk> out are increasing and especially as kids. Learning needs are diverse and they're not being met in the system. Yeah I mean that's really where where my parents I do think we need to step back here and defined some terms because you were just discussing homes going as was I and this really isn't homeschooling. This isn't like getting a bunch of books out and airtel gaining more experience in other avenues in life and you know information is now available twenty four hours a day and yet kids are still going to school at these fix times imbedded so the learning really sticks and most learning in unscrambling is it's an answer to solve a problem. It's what's their learning skills and knowledge but it's not separated from the contacts. They learned in so there <hes> it's did free learning where you know like I mentioned earlier in the introduction for example once we decided to school I sat river and tearing down I learned <hes> I basically equipped the entire basement this entire room of our basement with every last item that interest where those passions and interests lie right now now is that is that kind of the general concept and if so I'd love more about animal husbandry they were very interested in in American history. They wanted to learn how to beat Dad. At chess you know opening robot kits in in my fear and love to hear you comment on this was that they would just be sleeping until nine waking up and maybe fiddling that they would need to pursue those passions and interests so documentaries and board games on American history <hes> books on architecture learn to program lego robots <hes> they wanted to learn a little bit more about not playing video games but more specifically designing video audio games they wanted to learn how to work with wood and build a tree fort they want to learn more about gardening and raising the chickens and the goat so a little bit Lego kits or something like that and instead it's amazing to watch they're playing with all this stuff all day long especially the things that align with their passions and interests and feeling as though they can take time off until August or September rolls around the school begins there instead every single day in that room grabbing books grabbing games you passionate about everything they wanted to explore and and they they I mean sky's the limit but they wrote down things like learn to to fly drones at a fraction of the cost of what I was paying for tuition even once I once I added up all this stuff I may be spent. Maybe spent a thousand dollars. That's probably about what I spent there around them for when they wanted to delve into it you know a drone and a camera attachment for that drone the entire Google suite on both of their computers so that that's right so all of these little things so once once I gathered all those different things that they were passionate about or interested in what I then went and did the <hes> the different monuments and museums that they wanted to learn more about tons of books like tons and tons of books that they weren't required to read but there were simply there to hear you talk a little bit more about this idea of kind of like play an unstructured time that is the general concept sure and all of the different Lego architecture kits for all of the different American history objects like the White House and the on some of these concepts from your book and spent two days going through with them every last interest that they had everything they were they could learn sketch up and and you know books like how to beat your data chess and you know in the battle chess video game and in a Nicer Chessboard and basically I just alling around with the T._v. or running around outside and laying out in the grass staring up at the sky or you know just like playing with their star wars. That's amazing that your kids are doing that and you've got all this stuff. I sold little cost. That's amazing <hes> for for parents where real world problems and kids apply the solutions through their curiosity so it's basically self directed cost is a barrier for providing bill sings. The new school is the library rate so a lot of libraries have software programs that <hes> kids can they need a period of time to what we call d school so they're very used to sitting down in a classroom and having some coming us and there's no cost for that but what what happens generally as when kids go from school to unscrambling. He's got all this stuff and it's very interesting because every single day now you know we're in the middle of the summer when a lot of kids. Are you know kind of just lazing around. I'm to start owning their own education so we say it's probably about a month for every year. They're in school but for your kids to jump right in I think that's amazing. One spoon feed them information and what to do so so the longer they're in school the more time it takes for them <hes> but they're so it takes a while you know kids me wander round old gay and say I don't know what to do. I'm bored and then gradually just say you know there are times when kids are laying on the grass looking at the sky and that doesn't mean things aren't percolating in their brain gradually they start seeing what's around their environment and their natural curiosity takes over and they they jump right into things <hes> and I I have talking about creative ideas so like I don't know about you but I get my best ideas in the shower because you're you're not concentrating on. It's of free unstructured play and also I mean you even delve into the type of things that encourage children to do that that you can have. I would have thought that these kids need to be <hes> with a Tudor right now. They need to be learning something. This is not benefiting their life in any way all they're learning how to I'm just littered around the garage and my children will will spend two hours constructing these elaborate forts that they paint murals on the side of and actually get into this a little bit in chapter four. I believe of your book all the research behind the educational and life benefits distract their attention from media tasks and instead just let ideas flow freely. It's almost similar to some of the benefits we see from rest and there's now research that shows that not only giving a child the ability to play engage in a large amount of unstructured free time hammocks out on the patio and I have found them like out there just like not even with the book literally just in the Hammock staring off into the forest off of less stress for the child but also the ability to be able to build things like resilience and creativity and problem solving Millau enough time for them to have that downtime not that free thinking daydreaming or time for just unstructured play and unstructured meditation like allowing a child just daydream yes yes there's so much research and unfortunately a lot of parents and society look solid ation and working memory and empathy they've even done studies on things like blood pressure in salivary cortisol and show that those decrease when a child is able to just anything for for me. It's when I'm walking and there's research on this to there's even research on children this whole concept of day-dreaming right like for our kids like we have to whether a child is five or fifteen the play looks different but it is free play very necessary right and I think you is a highly beneficial for building creativity and self directed self education but daydreaming is a sign of better-equipped brain with better like learning consolidation Asia. Play is not <hes> directed by adults so a soccer game is not unstructured play and kids have just free reign and kids are not getting enough of that time. There's a lot of statistics out there and like you said it does benefit the brain the brain thrives on play or going to school or going to activities and as we know the over scheduling of our kids now days doesn't allow especially homework doesn't <unk> tunnels that go in and out of and with multiple rooms and you know part of me probably two years ago would have actually felt pretty guilty. I would look at play and think it's just frivolous. It's it's what kids do to keep them selves out of our hair while you know they're not actively learning something in to do what they want. Manipulate toys crafts but but not directed they just get to do make all the decisions and play on their own in your house like one example that you have is cardboard boxes tape would nails and other building materials well. We have those type of things I think we underestimate the value of play and the value of down-time <hes> in that that is what gives your brain rest and start thinking and in being able to to do almost like progress to other things in life that allow them to take those skills that they developed during their free playing their unstructured due build this stupid little like cardboard four. That's going to be destroyed tomorrow when we need to park the car in the garage and after reading your book and looking through the research and and there's a lot of statistics that you have in your book on this the benefits to it are just absolutely massive not only in terms of mimics a lot of what kids would learn in school but it's on their own initiative the the other benefit to is you know this time of the year is summer your time and apply creativity to actually solve significant problems <hes> l. Yes there's lots of research on a play. The People say oh you have to protect your children from somewhere learning slide so there's research out there that kids lose a couple months of reading meeting of your math ability but the problem with that is that the slide is on what the school thinks the children should know not actual learning so a Lotta Times summer is the best time for kids to they pick up so many new new skills and knowledge when they get to control what they want to learn about and it's Kinda sad because we're trying to fill in all that summertime for like no matter how much they're seeing friends or getting recess or having access to perhaps you know some cool labs or libraries at school at some et Cetera that a child experiences increasingly greater volumes at school eventually sucks the joy out of out of school. Join the episode but I want to interrupt a quite rudely to tell you about life insurance. Many people are confused about life insurance. May people do not understand it and that's where this website one point like this resentment and lack of joy with the schooling process builds up with all the specifically test taking my correct that I that errors or thirteen years old or something like that where the rigorous test taking <hes> quizzes ridden essays right policy in minutes at policy genius dot com just like it sounds policy genius dot com policy genius the easy way to compare they have no extra fees. They have no commission sales agents like many of these insurance companies do just helpful advice and personalized service and they also do disability mhm fits you can put together your own gear their website superfund you gotta check it out especially the customized feature and you also not only get their lifetime guarantee birdwell beach britches my favorite shorts in existence. This is a peril purpose built fabric that stretches with you. They have and you get free shipping for anything over ninety dollars. You just go to Birdwell DOT COM B. I R. D. W. E. L. L. Dot com use Discount Code Ben G at checkout he but you also get ten percent off your first Birdwell beach purchase purchase and lifetime guarantee. I said that twice because it's a pretty big lifetime guarantee and that I read that in your book about just just the issue with kind of the model of here you're a bucket. We're going to dump a bunch of knowledge in your head and then see if you can pass a quiz or test about whether or not they wanted to enroll in sixth grade and it was this idea that there there arises a time I think you say it's somewhere around like early teenage years and by Life Insurance code or anything else like that just go to policy genius Dot Com. This podcast is also brought to you by you guessed it in general exploration where at home you can do that. You have that whole ability to to go where the interest. I think you talk about this in the book and this this was also kind of inspiring to me. It was something I read elsewhere prior to giving my kids the decision Sir stretch which is their four way stretch micro fiber. They've got their Surf Neil nylon incredible durability <hes> as a matter of fact. It's so durable that if anything L. E. Insurance homeowners insurance auto insurance you name it they help you get covered fast so no matter how much or how little you know about life insurance you get the right checkout. That's Discount Code Benji Birdwell DOT COM pick up your first pair of birdies and see why they've been an American icon since nineteen sixty for can one the customized coverage you need at a price you can afford the advisers over there handle all the red tape they negotiate your rate so they beat the bad guy for you with the Insurance Company test on it yeah and and that starts generally around great sex so are you know age twelve and <hes> high ice some people call it high stakes testing I. I don't think it's very high stakes until in Canada U._S. Until they get into the later ten they called policy genius fits in so what they do is they compare quotes for you. You advised to get you covered in minutes. You get quotes from the top insurers to find anything breaks you can send it back to them and they'll repair it but the reason so durable is a fashion this stuff right after sailboat sales but doesn't look like you're wearing a sailboat. Sail looks like you run a bad ass pair of California summertime icon gears matter of fact outside magazine dubbed the Five Oh one of the beach they even do custom ears but it it adds strucks and it changes the nature of learning so even teachers can't meander off if a child if a allies and then kids soak it up and they remember it it the learning actually sticks in their brain because they're interested in it for kids but keeping him busy in activities where they need to take ownership of their education and learn what they want to learn. Hey I hope you enjoyed a group has more interested in something. They have to stick to the schedule they. If it's an exam year they have to teach to the test and that doesn't allow for expansionary you do need to establish some kind of criteria for whether or not education has occurred don't you I mean like I give the example of the tree for you know did and the beauty of that too is there's no motivation problems. You know kids WANNA learn what they're interested in now regarding testing though you has actually occurred if that's important I yes I do believe in standards of but how you get there how a child learns is not <hes> is not important if they acquire <hes> jurisdictions kids can just challenging exams. They don't need to prove they took the course so that's how we can bypass the whole school system and still prove prove our they're learning and through writing exams are S._A._T.'s university entrance in Washington of expectations like I want my brain surgeon to have passed a certain measure of abilities or my pilot they they do have a couple of months during the year where they will need to be reviewing some of the standardized tests materials choir skills and knowledge through whatever way possible but can meet the assessments for accreditation. That's great. I really timmy certified so I I see education going that way. Though where the emphasis is on <hes> accreditation or evaluation Kazan's or the S._A._T.'s and <hes> I know in Canada we have we have grade twelve final exams and in a lot of these standardized tests every year. I'm not saying this to Brag. I'm saying it to make a point but I was consistently the ninety fifth and ninety nine percentile on those tests with very little preparation for I think most unschooled hours per. They're learning <hes> through writing. Final exams may be at the end of grade twelve or university entrance in state for example where we live there is a a requirement that the children do take standardized test each year and that we report their learnings and with a book in a formal situation at the kitchen table or elsewhere insuring that they are able to to pass some of the you know the social studies the history. I think that's where we're heading <hes> just because as we've talked about kids can access learning anywhere anywhere from around the world <hes> but thanks to the state and we can get into some of the reporting recordkeeping mechanisms here in a little bit because I do think those are important. I can comment on how we're doing that but apples in terms of some of the subjects you lay out in the book or some of the activities you lay out in the book of how you would actually evaluate whether or not learning has read the math the type of subjects that are explored on such a standardized tests but you know it's not that difficult either I for me. It was the same thing when I was home schooled and and you know I had to take almost like an elevator they create for the dog. Get up there and you know that that's an example of kind of a almost like a pass fail type of scenario but do you have other examples on of a it's almost like a winch system to be able to get the dog via like a pollyanna rope up into the top part of the tree fort on this like would platform are examples a surgeon or a pilot and then having some amount of resentment because they can't go to college university because they have no history of standardized test taking over them and you know granted. I was doing a little bit more homeschooling out of books than I was unscrambling and so I really didn't even need to sit down and do a whole lot of they want to and and that is correct right unschooled can go to college right of course but I believe in testing by the age of eighteen so <hes> when they get to that point where they want to head into a particular college or university did it get built and can it withstand the wind the rain or anything else that they wanted to withstand or do certain functions of it work properly like they want to build some kind. One thing I disagree with is year by year testing <hes> icy no benefits of that because what that does is it ties <hes> learners yeah and and so I do want to ensure that that there is some amount of formality in place in terms of them jumping through the proper hoop so that they can go to college if <unk> preparation for those tests because I was learning stuff all year long but you know for us there is a time you know towards the end of the year that we do plan on on the kids. Actually being there is no record. They're not able to pass the S._A._T. Or the what's the other one <hes> the there's the S._A._T.'s Ian S._A._T.'s A._C._T.'s A._C._T. Yeah actually making sure they can pass these standardized fast because the last thing I want is for my children to want to go to college whatever to want to be. Let's say using your the parents to the school curriculum rate it. It's very hard to meander when you say oh they got this and this and this this year whereas if I we know how to do math maybe they need a bit more fresh shop on Calculus depending on the program. They're going into rain but <hes> eighteen years Um then at that age they have. They've most eighteen year olds know how to read. They've read lots of books. They know how to write they the bet fortnight and and then they can see on the paper the skills the math they learn the critical thinking the information technologies skills those kinds of things how inter-plays how it comes out from just yeah I know and that's where advocacy comes in in that. If you have a strong homeschooling lobby group kids are labeled truant or social worker shows up at the door and there is a requirement at least in Washington state that they take these annual tests at the dollar G. of education so many many schools do unscrewing in their school and it's just a methodology of education so just doing ordinary things kids do through their play and one of these years. I'M GONNA take every popular video game and slotted in there so that parents here in Washington again. There's twelve different subjects you know math and social studies physical education art etcetera that they are required to have demonstrated knowledge to children learn from minecraft. What did they learn from playing settlers town the board game <hes>? What do they learn from playing? Let's stretch this loop that can lobby the government and say you know testing changes the learning it absolutely does lots of research out there that does says evening about the activities that they've engaged in that day whether it be you know perhaps <hes> river has read a few chapters of common unscrambling or free unstructured play type of activities that would cross over into an in qualify as passing and <hes> if we want to learn what we WANNA learn. We can't be tied to school testing because then so there are many activities that one when I talked to teachers conferences what I like to do is give them a worksheet in your kids reach the age of thirteen they can do eight grades of mass in one year on paper that year because their brain is ready to understand in your learning what the school says you're learning rate and I understand that there are different rules for different provinces and states but keep that in mind that hoops so to speak I gave the example of building the tree for kind of being able to pass as for example math and an art but you have other examples of and <hes> of skills and knowledge and I say okay this is a minecraft game because a lot of teachers are familiar with mine crap and what skills and knowledge what's you know with <hes> advocacy comes change yeah yeah. That's a good point is a good point now there are of course you know asking for some of these more formally defined curriculums. There is so if you look at the legality unschooled is just a methodology Ed's both have journals and they're literally just they're not fancy at all. They're just blank page journals and they are expected to journal every single evening uh when they get that level is far more important than the standard is yearly tests but at the same time I don't WanNa create a situation where my straighted being engaged in during the course of the year but you get into your book about how creative you can be when it comes to jumping through some of these as of a biography of Abraham Lincoln because he's interested in American history and maybe he also read a few chapters of Mark Twain's a Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's court right so stan abstract concepts and and I agree with you that completion of things like grade twelve courses or taking the taking the G._e._D. G._O._P. Ethiopian restaurant and record a podcast on Ethiopian food and then there's chemistry because in many cases they're talking about the way the food was prepared and also so that would be then once. I look at that diary I would be able to when I'm putting together. The records say okay so this was the day that he did history and maybe at the same time also working on the tree Ford so that's math and art and maybe he also worked on the the Lego Kit for the Washington monument so that's more American history and maybe they also decided that that day 'cause they have a food podcast. They're GONNA go to the local. <hes> like the Queen of Ethiopia. Here's gives sheds a lot of chances to play and we know from experience. <hes> a lot unschooled. There's for example when I can see how educational things are that. They don't think are yeah. I mean the the way that we're doing it is the kids gene of a different section of the world and so in one single day there's like six different subjects that were covered and if I'm not mistaken and I believe you talk about some amount of history if they're talking about Ethiopia and even social studies because they're they're in kind of a a different environment where they're learning about the culture and cuisine. He's different. I guess yeah and certainly so when my kids were younger. They were of course up early so <hes> so they would get up and they would needed writing hated and yet we had to submit a writing sample every year which even that was really really hard for them to do if they were all day looked like for you as you were raising your kids and on schooling them Sir <hes> and it varies with each family but there they can <hes> if you just look at a typical unscrewing day you could slot everything they do into subjects right now up by about six A._M. And this is something we kind of transitioned into just this summer. We've just been kind of going to bed when it gets dark and getting up you know soon after it's gotten light so go to the store and they help you figure out the cost of fruits bats math and <hes> I'm not really good at recordkeeping. I figure <hes> but yeah it's turning what kids do naturally through their learning into what looks a really slowly subject matter out. What are you going to make them do that right? So UN schooling is accepting that a child doesn't want to do that. I had four boys that heated in his if a child some of mine were like that doesn't want to journal or doesn't want to you know <hes> build a tree Fort Yeah we we. We're we're our family right. Now is up. We're we're going to bed about nine or nine thirty P._M. And the kids are usually we can't cover everything that's in it at this point but do you have for example. I I guess an example of what a typical day might look like or what a typical her authorities requirements <hes> but if you look at a typical day it sounds like you're doing a lot but my concern forced to do it so we didn't do it but <hes> but even kids that don't want to do what you think looks educational. You can just hold typically by about nine A._M. Our kids already well into the books and having made some new recipe in the kitchen and all over the place but yeah every every family's purpose around ten o'clock and get dressed and head out the door for some activity that day it would usually be later morning video games and board games and books and activities that were kind of qualify as those different activities which is very helpful and again it you know your your books pretty thick we Oldham through the day and slot in whatever they're doing into subject outcomes so for example. Let's say they I'm not getting paid to record. Keep so <hes> I do it on a monthly or yearly basis so I would write that down. Maybe once a month or things like that. Come <hes> <hes> yeah and you know you have all sorts of different examples in your book for for Math and social studies and history and the different kinds of about this in your book to there is this concept of block learning where they don't necessarily need to cover every single subject every day right right yeah Ed Mander Too Crumbly T._v. or legal or you know in their pajamas they would find something to do or play with and I would be on my computer because I was working part time <hes> and writing books so that's what I would do and then we'd probably have breakfast mel in unscrewing. We don't like to separate learning into subjects it. It's all learning but you do have to meet school requirements to our or your every night. We would have a family dinner because <hes> the benefits as you know from homeschooling is a lot of activities now are happening. During the day are there are some commonalities among unschooled hours in in in fact most entrepreneurs don't like to do things early in the morning but <hes> lunchtime then we head back and because I also had babies and toddlers underfoot which is about homeschooling <hes> think and then and then we would have we would have a rhythm to the week like Monday night might be go to the library night as a family teenagers in our house we just have natural quiet time where people just do quite activity like read or <hes> you know watch a movie or something mm-hmm and then they would nab and we don't always have quiet time actually even now after lunch is quiet time and even though I have young adults and yeah such as girl scouts meetings soccer their soccer leagues now happening in the afternoon instead of rushing out the door at dinnertime so so it was a typical day is very relaxed. It's not a and not is very good for naught accumulating and yet by the end of the day typically like eight or eight thirty P._M. By the time we actually gather for dinner but we literally spend like an hour around school. Did you go to preschool. How did you get into post secondary did you? which method did US <hes>? What field did you is? Some of the some of the <hes> particularly intriguing success stories and even research on on the benefits language arts as math is social studies <hes> we're playing games almost every single night at dinner and granted you know a a big part of the unscrewing that we're doing very 'cause. That's one a parent's biggest worries rate so I sent them all surveys on okay. How many years did you unschooled her but yeah I mean that's a big part for us is the family dinner scenario and I think another interesting thing in your book go into and I got all the surveys back and they were either my kids his friends or my friends kids and thirty of them? thima thirty is once my kids <hes> hit late teens and started going to universities and colleges which of on schooling I think it's the team is a called the team of thirty research that you get into yes yes it is <hes> the responded and said yes. This is what we're doing so when I compiled them <hes> all thirty got accepted to universities around the dinner table and then it's pretty much you know dad plays guitar the kids snuggle up in bed with books and we hit the sack right and and I know there's many people doing the kids are also in camps there in different clinics <hes> they're. They're out learning in kind of like apprenticeship or mentorship type of scenarios in the health and nutrition sector will say you should be in that close to bed time but I think the the pros of a family dinner outweigh the cons of a late dinner we're going and I thought okay. This information needs to get out there that you know kids can play most of their childhood and still go onto postsecondary and their friends did too because you tend to hang around with on schooling friends because they're in the same lifestyle is you're right and <hes> I noticed their friends were going and they literally got like twenty different games. Now whether it's it's Card Games or chess or battleship boggle or Balderdash or any of these other things that actually count as language do a lot of great successful things out there too but I am those are documented and other people's books but I wanted to Christie's colleges tech schools and one third were in arts type courses one third were in humanities and successful. That's that's only one measure of success. I mean there's a lot of unskilled workers who go onto entrepreneurial ship <hes> and do is that I just described you know what what have you done today. What are you accomplished almost like a form of self examination? That's typically now almost every single night at dinner because we've literally eight about twenty to thirty have now graduated <hes> their programs so so when people say well show me research that says sometimes we had lunch together which is nice <hes> and having relax station time built in in the afternoon for the evening yeah toxic stress is having a more relaxed lifestyle rate where you do gather as a family every dinner <hes> or lunch of research. Are you familiar with John holts website it is <hes> John Holt G._W. Dot Com yes. Oh yes barrios you not only building the tree Ford but they have a Spanish instructor. They're doing cooking classes. <hes> they've got Jujitsu camp and tennis camp and Jenner's family time in the evenings is emphasized but also it's time for us to gather at the end of the day and go over our gratitude journals in the other kids journals jeff focus mostly on stem and the fact that kids can go to secondary if they want to yeah. There's a few other studies that you get to your book but one one particularly helpful resource that I found it's a little more bent towards homeschooling but it's got a lot of tips in there too and it's chock full. I think the family dinner thing for us. That's non negotiable. It always has been and it's not just because of you know books like you know Cherry Turco's reclaiming conversation in which the importance of family dinners and supposedly one third were in stem courses so we had four engineers in the group and <hes> to this date us. He's he's my hero yeah. He was like kind of the the father of home schooling or at least one of the guys I think I think it was Kinda back in the seventies and eighties who who was a real proponent of this home schooling or unscrewing approach and also just this general idea that children don't get enough unstructured time or so he coined the term the unschooled Ling meaning <hes> not school but it kinda got <hes> delved into this self directed schooler in his methodology philosophy which was amazing. He coined the term UNSCREWING <hes> which the story is that at that time a lot of <hes> schools are incorporating schooling in their methodology they just don't hallway directed learning <hes> area of of home schooling so most people know the term unscrewing and and it doesn't just mean uh-huh he was the probably the proponent of the modern homeschooling movement in the nineteen seventies and and he was an unschooled haul it pat <hes> an is very close at Montessori and Waldorf but I guess the real key to me. When I ask is truly an and you know talking about the stress they feel in the system? I think it just sounds too anti school like I think their schools will always be around around. There are a lot of great schools that really do free learning <hes>. There are a lot of schools at save their self directed but they're not they're only I mean you know free play like it or no classes no activities a lot of kids like your kids and my kids are enrolled in classes only self directed and pace so I don't like the term so much as self directed education but it is known by unscrambling so after use the term unscrambling school is I ask what what do you do as a child doesn't want to do that and so it's mostly much easier to unscramble outside the school system yeah yeah and you bull no think of unsettling. They know what it means <hes>. I don't like the term because when I'm presenting two teacher conferences up playing general purpose life skills because what he says is in an era of increasingly greater artificial intelligence and automation schooling will stick around as the way that we define what we're doing. I think it's so embedded now that <hes> people still use it a lot so when people I'm the seven up commercials came out as an alternative to its main rival and they called it the UN Cola so because the foresees critical thinking communication collaboration and creativity while downplaying technical skills and up nation that one of the most important things that an education should provide for a young human is the ability to be able to deal with change and to learn new things and her now now. How would this compare to like a Waldorf or a Montessori type of education or they incorporating a lot of these concepts or is that also far different than on schooling? He's got amazing resources out there and he is the guru of of this unscrambling movement now. What do you think about that term on schooling? <hes> I mean for our boys to be just absolutely stellar in terms of a host of resources and books yeah yes eat John. Hoult was book. <hes> relatively recently called twenty one lessons for the twenty first century and in that book he argues that that schools should switch teaching what he they are taxpayer-funded. They're accountable to the tax payers and society and they have to enforce a curriculum rate so role is still with the learner so so when my kids decided Nah. I don't WanNa do soccer anymore. That was fine. Let it drop rate so <hes> yeah it's he's well is it co Hirschson or is it not <hes> and most governments schools are cohorts of because or free play and you know he wrote. He wrote the book <hes>. I think that's a G._W. Stands for actually growing without schooling and I found that website is I pieced together the curriculum you know I think a big part of this. I was thinking about this. When I was reading recently a great book by All Noah Harari Wonderful author he wrote a book? What do you think that that you know based on this idea of originally being like a named after uncool or whatever do you think it's silly term or or do you think the term unscrewing his and activities and groups and more formal structured things but the difference is they choose right the control elite changing world and I think one of the better academic benefits of unsettling is this idea that templates and to be able to adapt quickly in unfamiliar situations to be able to almost like reinvent yourself again and again in a rapidly is these days that trump handwriting in my opinion like I grew up learning how to you know handwrite beautifully with the little lined paper but it's like I don't use that who'd instagram or designing web pages or formatting a blog or you know <hes> knowing how to use photoshop on photographs like there are so many skills down and that that's the problem that we we need to encourage that respectful behavior that respectful questioning increasing reliance on automation artificial intelligence in the increasing Repentiti at which job descriptions and end job requirements seem to change? Yes absolutely that's probably one of the reasons I started <hes> unscrewing we need to work on those skills communication but <hes> kids are natural critical thinkers and collaborators and on Pagano round hole and doesn't really know how to do anything otherwise or or perhaps you know figure out a way to to carve. It's a problem if you have yearly testing than you are tied to the curriculum she has kids are natural. Communicators collaborators gene that respectful thinking out of the box because like you said we're moving into areas. We don't even know what we're educating four yet at all anymore if I would have spent that time learning how to program video games and right H._T._M._l. It would've far better served me in today's era. You know kids and I were talking critical thinkers. We don't have to teach them those skills. They from the time babies are born. They problem solve how to get a shape into a shape. SORTER is up the brain for more creativity like yeah. Maybe there's a bunch of truckers that are GONNA be put out of a job by say school are even though their time honored traditions and in this might offend some people. They're not that relevant like you talk about handwriting in the book like Handwriting Skills You know and and compared to like mastering H._T._M._l. Or An and I realize this is kind of controversial but even like getting good tablets in the beginning of today's show. If we're creating a good little factory worker or you know someone who can put a square peg into a square hole and around homeschooling is that my kids would go to school for six hours a day. Learn the control curriculum income home and learn what they really wanted to learn and I thought car the square peg so that it fits into the round hole for example you actually create a child who's probably GonNa be screwed by this. Increase the ability to create original ideas that would come with play or creativity and you know when we look at the way the school heating system is set up you know as you establish right a set curriculum that lead children down this path to a preconceived outcome you know without necessarily fostering art <hes> beauties the troublemakers in school. You know the ones that are critical thinkers at stand up and question things they're the ones that get shut. We want to encourage that and that is one of the academic benefits of schooling yeah and also this idea that some of the skills taught in right like why memorize the path from point A. TO POINT B. in an era of Google maps like there's some things that I think we can bypass that just frees but this idea of just like you know why why memorized trigonometry equation for example in an era of Google. We don't have to teach those skills we just need to get out of their way and not shutdown those skills so the kids who are technology for surgery but maybe those surgeons are going to be freed up to discover the cure for cancer right or go creatively tackle Alzheimer's or lime disease. You know you know <hes> automated driving or perhaps even some surgeons who are going to be put out of a job by the invention of of surgical robots and the increasing reliance on technology playing in backups on the phone where where you're recalling and memorizing different images and sounds and shapes or you know for example we also we memorize any other day about another example like just memorizing stuff memorizing facts and yeah there's some benefits that have been shown to doing things like you know memorizing scripture each day because we think it's important for the spiritual disciplines to kind of you know sit down with something spiritual and devotional in commit that to memory at the beginning of the day but thought this is wasting my time. Why don't we just do this for instead of school instead of sending him away six hours a day but and that's why or or something else that's a big problem? Once robots have stepped in and are able to do the surgery so you know I think we just have to think on our feet a lot more when it comes to education in in in a far different world than the way the world looked when schools were invented back in the eighteen hundreds that's exactly right and that and that's why education needs to any others it just means that right now that is still sorting hat <hes> for you know especially all all the talent is coming from from Asian countries that were competing with. We still need certain credentials to go forward and I WANNA sure people that you it doesn't mean that you can't get a job and do wonderful things. In the tech industry without a degree I mean look at look at Bill Gates and many you can unschooled and through on schooling through self directed learning you can still get what knowledge and skills you again credential. The learning and for a lot of subjects like engineering and degree is the that's change there but right now we're in a flocks where where we're transitioning from more <hes> hands on learning to how do we college and university to a certain extent you know printer ships apprenticeship mentorships life travel etc can can replicate a lot of kids are getting in university as well you know when it comes roll it out grade by grade so for example my seventeen year old great now is studying for the social studies exam his from textbook take that tuition by them around the world plane ticket and let them just go explore the world for a whole year and I guarantee they're going to get a lot more <hes> resilience resilience and self education in a broader more useful education out of a year of traveling the world and they'll also get all of the social life the need to hassles exams to get those credentials you even the most valuable parts of my university education were for example. You know the the summers book that is thirteen years old it was written before smartphones have changed our world and is such a waste of time you have mastered certain concepts because you could do a great deal of damage to society if you have not there are other situations where you know if if my kids life experiences that they might be missing out on you know on quoting in college from from a scenario like that so I think with college he placed on the pedestal that is placed on like again. If if my boys WANNA be a surgeon or an astronaut or something that I do think requires a formal education in proof that you I'm kind of a knee injury and talk back and forth with their coach over the phone learn how they should be training and rehabilitating in the weight room. Take them out to the field. It's too abroad well rounded education absolutely and I think yes definitely Po secondaries and he'd change. They're you know they're they're still quite old school. You're going to a university classroom and a lot of it looks a similar to US thirty twenty years ago where kids wanted to go to school to learn like art or language or go to college you know for an arts or or language or social studies degree. I would much rather <hes>. The learning style has to change from stand up in the classroom and lecture a lot of things have to change. Oh yeah but that's the way it is. It is what it is and and our world can't wait fifteen years to change curriculum it absolutely can't yeah be disrupted because as a bureaucracy it takes fifty nears to change the curriculum and to pilot untested than and for him to to learn this stuff when he could be you know learning how to cold or make an APP or things like that rate that is much more useful ars were go off and do internships or Practica right. I I remember you know sure I took strength conditioning and and period ization and exercise physiology courses sources etc University of Idaho but you know for example one year I went to Duke University and I worked with all the athletes the N._F._L. was sending down their for Rehab Rehab and for training over the summer and for me to be to have to sit down with a linebacker was expected to do or <hes> you know defensive end with some old actually see how they're how they're cutting how they're moving you know design workouts for them to do in in the pool to rehab their knees. Take them into the exercise. That's the only way you can really <hes> you know form formal <hes> accredited you're learning at this point rate yeah and that's probably why a lot pulling out and we've discussed college and university and I don't want to give people the impression that I necessarily think that those either should be says physiology lab and actually see you know the actual oxygen. They're consuming the carbon dioxide. They're producing in a real world format rather than a text book you know and for me in college and so just this idea of practicum 's internships apprenticeships and life experiences as a way to educate a human I just attention to when I was putting together river and terence curriculum and you know at the bottom of the cone of learning like some of the least effective ways to learn. It's like reading watching. I think those trump classroom time there's even a I don't know if you're familiar with with something called the cone of learning but the cone of learning something I paid a lot of and even the summers where I teach kids sports camps you know rather than simply learning out of a textbook developmental psychology for example you know being forced to to figure figure out how five versus an eight versus a ten year old you know would learn how to play a ultimate Frisbee. All of those experiences were far more valuable for you're free to play He. He does a lottery search on play and its health benefits and wonderful wonderful things <hes> learning pyramid exactly and and the more we know about brain science a I mean nobody heard of learning styles twenty years ago but now we're trying to the incorporated into the educational system because like I said you know some parents will always need schools. It's a valid option <hes> but mm strong's work he he wrote books on Multiple Intelligence says and <hes> he wrote a book on schools. My goal is to get parents to understand. There's lots of options out there but Dr Thomas Armstrong are like Tim. I like a Peter Grace free to lert. There is <hes> there's the self directed alliance which is <hes> spearheaded by. Dr Association is a advocacy group to promote self directed education in Canada. Where a formal legal <hes>? I can't think of the name right now. The schools are kids deserve I think <hes> and he it's a book on schooling but how it can be watching documentaries looking at pictures and then as you can imagine higher up on the cone is actually participating in a discussion giving a talk Dr Peter Gray on sharing resources and I'm also for self directed schools so that's very helpful <hes> there's schooling and free play. I think there's a lot of resources out there. Now that <hes> I really liked <hes> Thomas Armstrong's nose stuck in a curriculum versus being out and living life and experiencing education through life which should really truly be at the base of that that just just google on schooling and their WANNA resources that come out now and we're our association on Schooling Canada Association Asian has all the stuff that children learn the the least efficiently through at the base of the pyramid right like reading and watching movies and having their Oh group <hes>. I don't know if there's an equivalent in the U._S. But <hes> the and each country home schooling group on facebook well is the school system in talking to business like do you want kids that can communicate collaborate and <hes> you know put put incorporate so the more we learn the more I hope things change but yeah experiences and the more Po Secondary's talked to do the business community and find out what what they want in and educating students at that level too as put their creativity into solutions bats people talk. I hope the more things change for sure yeah and even more but are there any other favorite websites or books or resources that you would point people towards if they want to take a deeper dive into this whole concept of unscrambling doc doing a presentation teaching experience simulating experience you know and and just life rather than than formal curriculum and you know that that cone of learning which anyone could could google and find an image of is incredibly insightful when it comes to just seeing how humans actually learn and it's Ben Greenfield Venice Dot com slash unscrambling to university and other book that I read that I thought was very helpful called a free to play which kind of delves into this concept of play eh now in terms of resources. We mentioned your book of course we mentioned a John Holts <hes> G._W. Resources and <hes> I will also link in the show notes over at base of the pyramid and all the <unk> starchy carbohydrates should be towards the top of the Food Pyramid. It's kind of similar the cone of learning right like it seems like modern education. It's just it's kind of funny. I've talked before about how I think. The traditional American Food Pyramid should be turned upside down where like the healthy nourishing fat should be at the at the we spoke. There's unsettling group someplace spoke yeah one thing that that I also did <hes> even though again it's more homeschooling oriented than on schooling was I went to my local. You can just Google you know homeschool law and the name of your states and in the case of a Washington state three week braced for that trip and I it all seems to make sense. It's very logical takes a little bit more of my time but you know what I'd much rather be with my kids than doing just about anything. You can't force a child to learn and you can't stop them from learning yes. It's it's crazy you surround them with the resources they need and then watch them so much more real than reading about it in Nevada. It's just incredible so yeah and you were an excellent job. You just remember you care you. Ben Greenfield and Judy Arnall signing out from Ben Greenfield fitness dot com have an amazing week. Thanks for listening to today's Today's show you can grab all the show notes resources pretty much everything that I mentioned over at Ben Greenfield fitness dot com along with plenty of other goodies from me who cover which subjects are required to be taught it Cetera even like preset templates to file a letter of intent to home school or unschooled with your I find myself questioning <hes> my capabilities and whether or not I'm doing everything right but thus far just having done this for the past several months. It's nothing else in this. This definitely paints into that corner quite well so I'm enjoying it and travel is so amazing local community and then the other thing that I found useful on that site was linked to some different forums in the local community like different homeschooling forums for example that education tends to be controversial and <hes> and sometimes polarizing sometimes. I'll say something about you know whatever you know vaccinations on twitter including the highly helpful Ben recommends page which is a list of pretty much everything that I've ever recommended for hormone sleep digestion takeoff and it's it's crazy what happens even even outside the borders of a school so all right well again the the U._R._L. Is Ben Greenfield finished ruling to university and of course Judy's book is a fantastic place to start as well. If you have comments questions feedback. I know this org has a website for each different state that walks you through the legal requirements for your state to ensure that your child isn't labeled as true in to know what kind of annual assessments you need to by into Egypt and they've got all sorts of of Arabian and Middle East cultural books and learning materials are going through in in preparation. God help to make this podcast happen and to generate income that enables me to keep bringing you this content every single week so when dot com slash unscrewing university the book is unsettling to university by Judy Arnall Judy. Thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for having me Ben All right folks. I'm offer things like field trips and other social opportunities with other kids etc so H._S._S. Dot Org was another useful website that I found and what I'll do is all thank you for writing this book and thank you so much for coming on the show and discussing this topic with me. Oh thank you for having the topic. It's it's wonderful to want to make this an open platform open to discussion open to ideas so again. If you have comments questions feedback just leave them all over at Ben Greenfield fitness dot com slash unsettling to university and either judy or myself or both will kind of watch your you have to say over there so judy in the meantime fat loss performance plenty more please also know all the links all the promo codes that I mentioned during this and every episode you listen in be sure to use the links and the show notes use the Promo Code generate because that helps to float this thing and keep it coming to you each and every all kinds of collect all this stuff books Thomas Armstrong and Peter Gray etc and I'll I'll put them all on the show over at Ben Greenfield fitness dot com slash unscrambling twitter or you know talk about you know even nutrition has to be highly dogmatic and polarizing and I realize education had to be the same way as well so I of course talk about it and especially if you're doing it now houses incredible yeah. It's it's. It's crazy and it's it's you know I it's absolutely amazing you know just being able to you know put my kids on an airplane you. I'm taking them to you know we just got back from Switzerland and we're turning around this fall and take him to they just just watching my sixteen year old son. You know Um cry when I take him to. Cow The concentration count and it's so it's it's <hes> The Washington home school law website H. S. L. A. Dot Org and it just

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