18 Episode results for "Peter Galbraith"

Al talks to Ambassador Peter Galbraith About Trump's Tragic Betrayal of the Kurds, and Al weighs in on the Impeachment Hearings.

The Al Franken Podcast

54:42 min | 1 year ago

Al talks to Ambassador Peter Galbraith About Trump's Tragic Betrayal of the Kurds, and Al weighs in on the Impeachment Hearings.

"Hey everybody boy we got. We got a great one today for a change. uh-huh Peter Galbraith WHO's one of these people who was in the foreign service for decades? You saw some foreign service service. Bought this in these hearings and they're magnificent as you can see and Peter is and Peter has a long Relationship with the Kurds so among the awful terrible things that Donald Trump has done and this might be the the worst in a way is that he sold out. The Kurds who Were our ally and who bled and died for us. Peter has tremendous insight into this and we'll be talking to him but I I just want to talk about the hearings. I JUST GONNA play a couple clips. I was just so so frustrated that Democrats oh craft played at so classy. Adam Schiff Brian classy not one Democrat reacted to the stupid ship. The brahmins were saying they should have had a designated guy a guy and force her. And you'll you'll understand what I mean. So let's play a few of these clips and I'll I'll try to react to them. Okay the first one we're GONNA do is Republican Congressman Chris Stewart of Utah. Who makes a very very Stupid point takes a little while doing it but they had to kill time they had nothing to say so all he would do is say these Insanely obviously stupid things here. We go question before us now is again. Extortion that's the. That's the latest version of the charges against the president. I'm not an attorney extortion. Sounds pretty scary. kind of serious decide to look it up what it means. It means obtaining money or property by threat to victims property. Our loved ones Mr Ambassador. I'm going to read you a couple of quotes from presence Celeski and then ask you a question. I from Ukrainian press release. Donald Trump is convinced that the new Ukrainian government will be able to quickly improve the image of Ukraine a complete investigation of corruption which inhibited the interaction. T crane and the USA. Does that sound like presence. Alinsky is being bribed or extorted added an comment as I testified previously. I'm not a lawyer either and I don't WanNA characterize well okay any legal terms. That's fine I think most people would read that and say that doesn't sound like he's under severe pressure. He makes it very clear in his own words. In Ukraine Presidents Alinsky told reporters during a joint press press conference with Donald Trump that he was not pressured by the. US President again. I was not pressured. He's another time. There was no blackmail. I would ask you. Do you think he felt like he's being extorted by the president based on these comments. I really think that's for the committee and the Congress to well you know what the Stern Basser. It's really for the American people. I agree and the American people aren't stupid and the American people can hear that and they can say I don't think he was under duress. I don't think he was being extorted. I don't think there was an exchange of a bright. He says the the American people aren't stupid. Well you know there are some American people who are stupid it just are. It's a bell curve. We have a bell curve. Then there are the people that are or even on the good side of the bell curve who can fool themselves and say I want him to be innocent it once I tell L. Myself I should believe something I do believe it that's me and I'm smart on Iq tests. I'm character blow the bell curve below the bell curve below the top there vault. Wow Wow wild. Wow but silent goes like I'll at the American people the side. I'm not going to get into that. Why didn't silent go idiot? He you can't say that you moron. I guess he wants. He's still the ambassador. The that's that's amazing. I wonder how long that's GonNa last. It'd be funny for just keep you know because he gets rid of them then he's going to go like you know what I I also had my memory Ed refreshed again. I hit my head on a on a on a wall and a lot of things came back to me. And what would a review of these hearings be without a clip from Jim Jordan. And he he does this along the same lines It's it's basically why didn't Dolinsky bring it up. You had a chance but it seems to me the one that's the most important is probably the one we've talked about bounds. That's the September fifth meeting. This is the meeting where Senators Murphy Senators. Murphy and Johnson bipartisan. Meet with presents Linski. And what's interesting is what both senators in the last two days have given us letters recounting what happened in that meeting. Senator Murphy said I broached the the topic of pressure on Zielinski from Rudy Giuliani and the president's other emissaries to launch investigations that trump's political rival murphy brought it up. He brought. You got two senators. who both strong supporters of money going to Ukraine? These guys are all for it and Senator Murphy Democrat even brings up the issue. Everyone's been talking about. Yeah it seems to me if ever there was going to be a time where the president of Ukraine says guys. You don't know what I'm dealing with. I'm getting pressure from the United States. He wants me to do this. I gotta make it seems if ever there was a time that the president of Ukraine the new guy. Aw who now knows. The aid has been on on hold if ever there was a time to bring it up. That would have been the time. He is basically saying that Alinsky said he wasn't under pressure of course Linski said that he can't say no. I'm being blackmailed by the president of the United States. And having said that I expect to get nothing for the rest of the time I'm president and the people so In Ukraine will throw me out for saying that because so stupid to say it my God well either. Either you are stupid or you're just dishonest. I just went right to stupid. He could just be it. Didn't sound to me like Mike. This is a crafty thing like. Hey Ours Alinsky said There's no pressure on them. MM-HMM SO As I read the situation him saying over and over again. Now there's no pressure on me there there's no I wasn't being Shaken down This wasn't extortion. There was no quid. Pro Quo okay. Let's let's get off that dumb point so that doesn't make a sound like they just made that dumb point. Here's one where the castor the that's the Republican counsel who I think had nothing and so every once in a while was phoning it in. I think the so he is talking. Silent Silent is testifying and he has his long question period with Sunland Oakland and here. Let's listen Senator Johnson State Terry writes. I asked him the president whether there was some kind of arrangement where Ukraine take some action and the whole would be lifted without hesitation. President trump immediately denied such an arrangement existed. Senator Johnson quotes the president as saying no and he he prefaced it with a different word. No Way I would never do that. Who told you that? Senator Johnson says I have accurately characterized. The president's reaction is adamant vehement an angry Senator Johnson's telephone telephone call with the president wasn't a public event. It was capturing a genuine moment with the president and he had at this point in time on on August thirty first. He was adamant vehement an angry that there was no connections to aid. There are no pre-conditions. Yeah I had my meeting with Senator Johnson were again. I made the presumption that I had made to both Mr your Mac and the email I it's sent to Secretary Pompeo and we were sort of ruminating about what was going on and Senator Johnson. I believe said I'M GONNA call President Trump and find out and then he obviously had that phone call. I wasn't involved in that phone. Call Okay but you've no reason to disbelieve. That wasn't wasn't the way it went down right. No reason to disbelieve Senator Johnson. No Johnson Probably wouldn't have any reason to lie to sign one Let me ask you this though Mr Silent With trump have any reason to lie to Johnson. Oh yeah yeah he would God and is Johnson the smartest member of the Senate on no no he is not let me ask you. This has trump ever lied before. Yes does he lie all the time yes does he li- even when he has no reason to lie yes he does so when when he says no he's angry about it could he be like doing a little play acting. Because you know you talk about how a businessman like when he's going to give check to somebody and that guy owes them something he wants to check back you know. Would it be possible that a businessman businessmen who does that kind of thing would also lie at some point you now mischaracterize. What's going on? Not Say the truth. Yeah Yeah Yeah. Yeah my God. Why didn't why didn't schiff allow somebody to be the point man and go come on? Come on really really. The thing is is that Schiff and the Democrats said a whole tone here which I objected to basically which is dignified and they would not point out this stuff and I suppose they said well you know we just want to get the testimony. We just I want to get it down on the record. You had a Lotta time every once in a while someone could have just pointed out how ridiculous and honest and stupid shit was really So so Lansky. When he was asked he said there was no pressure from trump? Yeah yeah he never said I'm Zelinski. That's proof off that's proof that Solanki wasn't pressured by trump is because he didn't tell us he was. Let me ask you this. If you're Sqi and you want help from the United States do you want to piss off the president of the United States breath no and would piss off the President United States saying. Yeah he's shaking me down trump shaking me down Yeah oh I'm so stupid. Jesus Christ we have have appeared galbraith. He was foreign service person for twenty five years. Something like that and in in that service got to know the Kurds very well. The leadership of the curse words what President Trump has done there in Syria and the way he's betrayed our allies. The Kurds birds is just stupid and tragic. It's clearly tragic. It's going to undermine us for years and years and years. You don't do this to an ally. The Kurds died. Eleven thousand Kurds. Words died fighting Isis. Isis was not their fight in Syria. They fought and got the Kurdistan part uh of Syria and then the US said could you. We don't want a lot of boots on the ground so you're there anyway. You're a great fighters Would you go after Isis. And they did and effectively wiped it out in fact didn't term Brag about how he effectively wiped out Isis. Well that was the Kurds and eleven thousand died. That's more than more more. US soldiers died in Iraq and Afghanistan. Combine they did this because they felt a k the U. S. is a good ally to have. I'd say that good allied so we will do this and hand and trump. Did this effort phone call now. We got a good one for a change and With me is Peter Galbraith Ambassador Peter Galbraith. You were ambassador to Croatia. uh-huh yes were you subsequently or in Afghanistan as what I was Assistant Secretary General of the United added nation so the number two in the UN mission. which was a very large Mission Intended to stabilize the country and this was in two thousand nine okay. And how's that going. I remember I saw the reason I want a I asked Peter to join join me. Here is really a talk about the Kurds. Because Peter I I know has had a very close relationship was fair saying I. I think that's fair to say with the Kurds since Nineteen eighty seven seven. You have perspective. I think on what I think is just stay horrible mistake. The trump made to allow Turkey to come in and that may be. You are obviously in agreement with me on that of course but I think it's worse than a mistake. Yes net implies that there was some accident or or some error of judgment. I think this was very intentional. Intentional betrayal of an ally are betrayal. The US is betrayal of our ally. The Kurds towards the Syrian in Syria. Who when you're fighting against an enemy Win this case the Islamic state. You need both Airpower airpower which we provided but airpower alone cannot win a war. You need troops on the ground and the Kurds provided the troops on the ground Over the five viewer campaign against the Islamic State's from twenty fourteen to March of Twenty nineteen of this year. The Kurds suffered eleven thousand dead. Now that that's more more dead than the more than we've lost in both Iraq and Afghanistan. That's right and in Syria. We had five combat casualties. US Did exactly and in a way. the Kurds in Syria or were fighting Isis on our behalf you very significantly actually when the US I intervened it was September September of two thousand fourteen and the city of Kobani which is right on the border with Turkey. The Turkish borders a wall That is the north end at the city. A physical physical wall like the Berlin Wall and Co body was being surrounded by Islamic state fighters and the races Isis and and they were using American Weapons captured captured from the Iraqi army which simply surrendered them to Isis in in Bozell the previous CBS June. It was clear that there's going to be a bloodbath of this city. If if Isis took Kurds. Were were resisting heroically. I I mean just to describe the defense offense at I was in Kobani a year later and I went to the governor's office and they showed me The Kurds were on the roof of the building. Isis was on the first floor. The governor's office was on the second floor and they were fighting from the roof through. The governor's office to the first floor. The the second floor was completely destroyed. And of course the the defenders on the roof had no escape it was either withstand isis or die and they did succeed in in that building but they took a large number of casualties in order to prevent isis from overrunning Kabbani President. The Obama took the decision to intervene. I with US air power and then with airdrops and so in that sense this began with the US. Helping the Kurtz parts but once the Kurds had defeated Isis attack and Kabbani and recovered the Kurdish villages around they had recovered all the territory that was of interest to them but the US said we would like you to continue the fight until you've a radical Islamic state and so the war continued for another nearly four years in which the Kurds were fighting to take territory Arab territory that Isis held. And that's where. They took the bulk of the casualties. We induce them to continue the war and then once they defeated Isis which was said March of two thousand nineteen with the last Isis Village fell a place called Fargo's Basically then in October trump said we're done with you And Turkey you're welcome to come in which is an amazing betrayal and just to get this straight AFRICO. Bonnie and those villages were secured. Their stand part of Syria was secured. They were fighting Isis. So that we didn't in have to send troops in there that that's exactly right and of course there's a moral matter when when you have an ally a partner you don't just just betray them and that it's seems very out of character with what least the United States that I believe that I've served for twenty four years as a as a diplomat or public servant that the contrary to our values but it's also contrary to our national interest Trump says. Oh Isis competed well in fact They're fourteen thousand. Isis fighters still at large in Syria and Iraq the discontent in both countries that created the opportunity for Isis is still there among the Sunni populations. And there's a good chance that the ten thousand Isis fighters that the Kurds it's hold could escape if Turkey's attack continues and some have already escaped at some have already escaped. So what happens if we have to fight isis again. We may not have our Kurdish allies on our side. This is what happens. If you betray the ally means you then have to do it yourself and and actually the occurs have now aligned themselves with Assad. Well they've had to make a deal with. Assad they were faced with an attack from Turkey. which moved into their territory. As attack that trump gave a green light tube and facilitated in those circumstances You look for help and the Russians moved very quickly and effectively diplomatically And they brokered a deal between the Kurds and the Assad regime regime in which Syrian troops returned to this part of the country For the first time whilst it's twenty twelve two thousand thirteen. I on October. Tober fifth of this year Syria was effectively divided along the river with the Western two thirds of the country Basically controlled by the Syrian government. The WHO ended the ally of Russia and Iran and one third was controlled by the Kurds. Roi Ally as a result of what trump did Assad of the ally of Russia and Iran. Now controls has forces in the entire tire country and Russia is along the border in fact Russia is in basis that the US built and they moved in so quickly because the US pulled out so quickly that the Russians are there You know eating the food that the Americans left behind. This is so suspicious in terms of Russia I. I don't know if you're aware of this. But some people think that trump there's some reason season that he's doing the bidding of Putin. Have you heard that yes. I've heard that and I think it's basically basically true. I mean he certainly he is doing the bidding of Putin that that is indisputably true. The question is why is he doing the bidding of of Putin does Putin have something on him and it's hard to escape the suspicion that perhaps that that's the case of course and we don't want you. Yeah there's a lot of conjecture about what that is whether it's Wandered money going through the trump organization et Cetera et CETERA. But there seems to be sort of a Putin trump connection in in in some way because this actually help Assad and Russia and I guess that means Iran right. Of course since we're talking about this there's a phone call Zenit Eh Amazon and trump on October six. They have a phone call and aired Awan tells trump that he's planning into move into northeast Syria. Now he'd been threatening to do this for many months and the US ambassador. James Jeffrey who had been Trump's a special envoy for Syria he had negotiated a deal in which the Kurds the SDF the Syrian Democrat Democrat forces our allies the Kurdish led force but actually a force that also includes Arabs and Christians that they would pull back from the Turkish border And they would remove their heavy weapons Of for a an area up to five kilometers and then the heavy weapons would be maybe twenty kilometers out most places and then and they'll be joint American and Turkish patrols to verify that there were no forces there that might be a threat to Turkey Not that they were a threat to Turkey and also the Kurds were told. They had to destroy their defenses. They built trenches because they were anticipating a Turkish attack so they filled in their trenches office and once all this was done that they have a you know a deal was in place aired one then calls. The Turkish President Calls Trump on the sixth of October and says that he's intending to evade and trump. Just give Cima Green Light He aired wanted. Ask Trump to remove if the American troops American troops were intended to be as a trip wire to keep Turkey out So he removes. The American troops in Turkey invades on the ninth of October and does enormous damage two hundred thousand refugees. Hundreds of people killed incidently in an area that had a lot of Christians y why would trump do. This is izzy enamored with Amazon. Because he's an autocrat. Is that part of it. It's hard to know I mean he. Trump obviously has an affection for autocrats. He's also somebody is just a funny phrase action for autocrats but he somebody who doesn't read his briefing materials and so to some degree say whoever and the the staff set up. This phone call wasn't very clever because he knows that trump's not gonna read is talking points and trump tends to believe the person he's talking to so Amazon is charged that the that the Kurds were terrorists that was bad as Isis and and trump basically agreed with him a but there may also been eh business interest as well trump buildings while trump's son-in-law and aired on son-in-law have become great friends and they've also had the trump's son-in-law's ause been involved in his and trump's business ventures in Turkey and and trump has two towers in Istanbul there to trump towers which are licensed arrangements that pay well nationally. Were paying ten million dollars or so to the trump organization so there was that that connection and I I think it's fair to say that trump is somebody who has consistently put his personal business interests ahead of the national interests. I think you saw that Quite dramatically when he decided added to have the G Seven summit at the Durrell the hotel complex that he don't. Yeah also you know we Assign land gave a million dollars for the inaugural and now is figures very large in this whole Ukraine. The thing I just a million dollars to that inaugurals fund it was a slush fund as thinking about that you know trump must have been thinking after got elected like how am I gonNa make money out of being president. Well why not start on day one. We'll do it in the inaugural committee. I mean my God so we don't know all all the factors about why Why this happened after this phone call but the result is really that the United States betrayed trade the Kurds yes and of course? There's a another lesson here that everybody notices in two thousand fifteen and Assad the Syrian president was endanger of losing the Syrian civil war. The opposition forces were in command of Aleppo the the largest city in Syria they were in the Around Damascus and the Syrian army was falling apart. People were who were conscripted. Were avoiding military service service. People were in the army were deserting and the Russians intervened militarily and they saved. Assad what is the lesson that anybody in the Middle East to seeing saying. Hey if Russia's your ally they stand by you even in your darkest hour if America's your ally they Arca stand by you even at the moment of triumph because Russia stood by Assad when he was about to fall trump abandoned the Kurds after they had secured a victory against the Islamic state And the Kurds saw that lesson. And that's why when the Russians offered to strike a deal. The Kurds had they said yes. And the Russians. Got Them a deal. All that brought Syrian troops back to the Kurdish region but left the The the Kurdish forces also there and along that border stripped where there had been a deal that was going to have American and Turkish troops patrol now. Russian and Turkish troops are patrolling. The beginning of October there was a deal deal under which the Americans and the Turks were going to engage in joint patrols and those patrols had begun at the end of October it was the Russians and the Turks who were doing doing the patrols and exactly the same area nother words. Russia had replaced the United States in this critical area and Assad he would be the the biggest mass murderer. Who's like around today? Would you say that is fair. There there may be some competition but I can't think of it right now. So yes he probably is the the the biggest if not one of the biggest if not the biggest mass murderer. The toll in the Syrian civil wars may be half a million people. It's it's horrific plus maybe half the population of Syria's been internally displaced twelve million people and four million are refugees and the the and the country has been devastated. and Assad now has emerged the victor. Yeah I hope he's happy. Okay so let's Let's go to your career. You've you've been in the foreign service now for how many years. I'm retired now but I was in the. US Government the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and the State Eight Department for a total of twenty four years. And I think that in these these latest hearings that Americans are beginning to get a good look at some of our Foreign Service people and are pretty impressed. The Foreign Service our people who serve whoever Whoever the president is whoever the secretary of State is they provide their best advice but then they implement the decisions that are taken provided their lawful? And what you had is concern among the professional foreign surface and actually among the Professional intelligence community that what the president of the United States was doing was not lawful and you saw men and women testifying who were very very professional with with excellent memories with very kept good notes and could describe in a very clear way the illegal behavior that they observed going on and could describe how this illegal behavior damage the interest of the United States. So you Sarb you say with the the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. What was your job there? I handled The committee's main legislation the the Foreign Relations Authorization Act and the Near East and South Asia included in that was Iran and Iraq and during the Iran Iraq conflict. There are things that you personally investigated right. Yes so the Iran Iraq war was like a World War One in terms of casualties among soldiers of their trenches at the frontline USA poison gas by the Iraqis against the Iranians. Three quarters of a million Iranian alien. Young men were killed and perhaps half a million Iraqis. It has occurred to me that you know. Although a lot of Americans had the view well well. We don't like either side that they're always unintended consequences from wars and so I thought that the committee and the US ought to be more concerned. So I made made two trips to Iraq. Iran was inaccessible during the Iran Iraq War I in Nineteen eighty-four and then again in nineteen eighty seven. When I went in Nineteen nineteen eighty seven actually began in Kuwait? I was in the city of Bosra on the heaviest day of shelling by the Iranians and up through to Baghdad saw the various Iraqi leaders. Here's and then for very peculiar reasons. I had gotten permission to go to Kurdistan in the north east of the country and when I headed up with a Heywood rankin career. Foreign Service officer also is driving across from the Arab areas into the Kurdish areas. And we realized that was something very wrong that is say villages and towns that existed on. Our maps didn't exist anymore and we began to see what was happening. We could see A towns where on one side of the road there were just piles of rubble and on the other. There were abandoned buildings with bulldozers we began to realize that what we were witnessing was the systematic destruction of all the villages in Kurdistani a rural area. And then we could see that. The population was being relocated into what Saddam called victory cities. But they were really concentration camps. Now why was this happening. What really there were? Two reasons I Saddam who was an Arab chauvinist. He thought of Iraq has being a leader of the Arab world while the Kurds aren't Arabs. And this element of fascism and racism. Here so he had engaged in pretty brutal title. Repression of the Kurds And when the Iran Iraq war broke out the Kurds rebelled and of course the Iranians had helped them and so the destruction of villages. This was intent was a military measure intended to deny the Kurdish insurgent so A base of support but it was also a racial measure to basically reduce and a population that wasn't Arab and And so when I produced the report About which was basically focused on the Iran Iraq war not on this question. I included a few paragraphs chiefs about it and A Kurdish doctor who lived in the Maryland. Suburbs Scott in touch with me and introduced me to the Kurdish leadership. I I began to get a lot more information about what was going on which also included the deportation of a couple of hundred thousand people to the south. And they're only about five million only occurred so four million at this time in Iraq so that was a pretty large number and these people hadn't been heard from again turned out that they were murdered in my mind was was a policy aimed at depopulation that the killing of large numbers of people and then on August twentieth nineteen eighty-eight. The Iran Iraq war ended five days later. Saddam began a series of chemical weapons in the Hawk government. Now this is not near the Iranian border. It's on the Turkish border later on the Syrian border. So it's on the west coast courtesy him but also Kurdistan and Al People from Hawk began to A- show up in Turkey saying that they had been gassed and I was home in Vermont and I began to say to myself. This is genocide you know you. You you systematically systematically destroy the villages and now you begin to use chemical weapons on a large scale so I went back to Washington the as you know. The Senate is in recess in August but At just after Labor Day I I was backup desk and I went to see the chairman claiborne. Pell Democrat from Rhode Island. And and somebody who had fought in the in the Second World War and who had been a foreign service officer and was very concerned concerned about issues of genocide and I said you know Saturday I think genocide is taking place here and I described what I thought of putting putting the the chemical weapons attack I gather with the destroyed villages and he asked what I thought we should do and I said well I think the one thing we can do is at least to introduce use a bill to impose sanctions on Iraq. Probably can't get it passed. It was the very end of the Senate session but at least we can introduce it and he said we. We've gotTA rounded up quickly. Because the last meeting of the committee is going to be. I think it was going to be later that day so I I wrote a bill in about an hour. Put every sanction. I could think of in the bill And then I gave it a title. The prevention of Genocide Act of one thousand nine hundred eighty eight and senator pell turned to the committee. Eddie was meeting was meeting on other business but he turned to Jesse Helms the ranking Republican extreme right-wing Senator for North Carolina Lionel Him and asked if Senator helps would co-sponsor and helps took a look at the bill and he said yes and then I got a few other senators onboard. Al Gore are of Tennessee. Ted Kennedy and Robert Choose Nassar's and Robert C.. Byrd now the West Virginia who is the majority leader and because I had bird autumn. Because I had helps I was able to work with birds floor staff to get the bill not referred to committee but held at the desk and then hotline. Why do you know what that is all the offices of anybody on the floor and see if anybody objects and we could br brought it up the next day and it passed unanimously? Now has is to be said that nobody had read the bill or understood how the sanctions might affect various American business interests. But the fact that it was co sponsored by Pell and hells And had the title. It did this sanctions against Iraq against Iraq for gassing the Kurds and then I said to Senator Pell you have any effect on the gassing yes Saddam never again used poison gas. It didn't stop the genocide but it did stop the gassing. The Day get past I was on the floor and I said you know Senator I think I ought to go out there and you know. We've we've made this allegation. I'm convinced it's true. But we OUGHTA documented And he agreed and I took along a junior staffer from the European affairs subcommittee. Chris van Holland now the. US Senator from Maryland. Terrific a person as you know and we went along the entire length of the iraq-turkey border we spent five days and there were about sixty five thousand people in in different locations along that border. Now this is the Arab before cellphones Internet and we had maps very detailed maps so we could ask people what villager you're from and they would show us that asked to describe what happened in their village typically the Iraqis Air Aircraft would come over helicopters in some cases they were drop bombs they did. The bombs didn't explode. They were silent then. They described the the different smells. But typically they describe people people just dropping dead and sometimes with with Blue Lips And we could match up stories from the same village by people who ended up miles apart in Turkey with no ability to communicate so you had corroboration. The reality was that of the sixty five thousand people who had fled to Turkey. Every one of them was an eyewitness to this but there was something very curious. We'd really gone. We wanted to find people who were victims who had entries from chemical weapons and couldn't find any of that fact. There was nobody injured in this population and we were really puzzled and then we began to realize that this was a bit like Sherlock. Sherlock Holmes is dog that didn't bark the recent that there were no injuries is that people either were affected by the gas and died or they weren't and therefore they were not injured they They had just saw what happened. And also the absence of any physical injuries also suggested that this was not a military campaign with conventional weapons. If you have bullets you're gonNA have people who. Ah You know who are are injured with bullets are report which we wrote on the plane back and pell released and it was. I think it's been accepted now as absolutely definitive that Iraq had I use chemical weapons and The Reagan administration which had been very pro. Saddam agreed that chemical weapons have been used but then they oppose the legislation. They opposed even cutting off the five hundred million dollars a year that the US was giving Iraq and foreign assistance basically in in export import credits in agricultural credits and they argued that even cutting off aid to Iraq was too extreme response to Iraq's use of chemical weapons against its own people apple and of course as you know fifteen years later in two thousand three the fact that Iraq had used chemical weapons in eight justification for war All this got the attention of of Kurdish leaders and You know I ended up being Becoming very close to them I think you have a perspective on this also very few Americans have. Yeah I've I've made. Fourteen trips into Syria northeast Syria since twenty fourteen and I was just there in September Talking to them they were nervous about what the US was going to do it because they they knew. Trump was not a reliable partner but they didn't have a lot of choices. Uh when you first heard about this phone call with air. John was like a sickening reckoning. Feeling that you had. I mean what I can't imagine having that relationship with Kurdish leaders and and knowing this is what the effect of this was I was shocked but not surprised I sd because nothing that trump does surprises. This seem like like one of the most irresponsible things. He's done it certainly one of the worst things he's done because you know This but this is something that has cost hundreds of lives and that could well cost American lives. Oh it's damage the reputation the United States And it's Damaged a of the American role in the Middle East and it's given Russia huge Step up and even threatens the NATO alliance so The consequences are are are huge. Okay let's take a break for this word From our our sponsor who I believe in a one hundred percent welcome back back To really great one for a change. We have Peter Galbraith. What did the war in Iraq? How are invasion of of Iraq in response to nine eleven when of course Iraq had nothing to do with nine eleven and the cost of cost to our our troops? What did that do to the the region I mean in other words? Was this a a disaster. That is I mean bigger than Vietnam Vietnam. We lost fifty thousand some an over that but the end of that that wasn't I don't think consequential as what we've Seen Cincy rock the award this this have a a destabilization effect in the region. who what would have happened? Had We not done don. That is the most disastrous Decision we've seen in recent history. It could be the most disastrous mistake that the US has ever made in foreign policy. The Islamic State is a direct consequence of the US invasion of Iraq. And the circumstances. That made it possible still exists which is why I think there may well be an Islamic state. Three point you know the first was Al Qaeda Mesopotamia the Sarkawi who was killed. I think in two thousand seven. Now we help Baghdadi who's killed old in two thousand nineteen but the disaffection the circumstances that made it possible for Isis those still exist so if if you compare Vietnam mistake there to the mistake in Iraq have to conclude the Iraq war was far more far reaching consequences it because the threat the terrorist threat that emanates from Iraq back is not going to be confined just to Iraq The case of the North Vietnamese. It was more or less confined to Vietnam or Indochina but if if isis comes back in it very likely will it will be a threat to Europe and perhaps also to the United States also. The cost of the Iraq core has been so great. I again I would argue that eighty percent of Iraqis are Kurds or Shiites. They're better off but for the US and we've spent I know the total cost of the wars maybe three trillion dollars and While it's five thousand ad there may be another twenty thousand servicemen and women who are very severely injured. I would say very severely injured. But I'd say the trauma far far far more reaching than that for sure and and of course. This was something that that you follow it and we're deeply concerned with during your time in the. US Senate so you have a very good sense of that. God Yeah I remember my first bill is to get just to do the study on service. Dogs see the fact was parent service dog with a veteran who had ptsd because there was some really good what evidence at the it was incredibly helpful and I remember on the floor talking to Centers McCain Kyle and Lieberman and Cain was actually skeptical about this and at one point. I said well we're the study he would match two hundred dogs with two hundred vassals. DSP and Kyle said to me. Are there enough guys coming back with. PTSD to justify two hundred bucks sounds totally out of touch. That's amazing in that something. I think most people are looking at our foreign policy. Our we are seeing a deterioration of the foreign service Decisions made by the president that seemingly mainly have our our whims based on whim sometimes and aren't really thought through not surprisingly. What's Your Democrats? Sp talking about during this. Two Thousand Twenty Cycle in terms of trying to let me tell the American people. What the effect of his foreign policy as been or lack of it and what we need to be doing when win in two thousand twenty one? Well I think the the first thing that Democrats ought to be talking about is the way in which a trump has damaged the American brand in the world. You damage the American brand when you have an ally and betray that ally and of course it means that the people don't particularly want to be your ally because they don't think they can trust you. You damage the American brand. When you have an agreement like the Iran nuclear agreement which Iran is honoring? And then you break it for no no valid reason whatsoever and you Damage the American brand. When you have the you're the only country in the world who is not part of the pair or Paris climate agreement there were two countries that weren't part part of it and it was Syria and Nicaragua and make Arago was a signatory because it felt the agreement didn't go far enough and Syria was just Syria was a mess. So at that point they have both signed up so we are literally the only country in the world is not part of the Paris accord right and then we have trump with North Korea. Well North Korea still has its nuclear weapons developing more missiles. And what is the president of the United States. Say He's in Love in love with Kim Jong UN on the Young man who's the red itary dictator of North Korea. It's it's quite extraordinary so we we have a president who has damaged American and and weakened United States with his slogan was make America great again. But he's actually made America weaker again and of course he would like to break up the European Union he's been a big supporter of Brexit And he's a weakened NATO I he says he had looked possibly wants to break that up. Well who's agendas this ladder may Putin's Thank you Peter. Thanks for all the work. You've done Long of our our Foreign Service folks what are you doing now. I mean you're you're trying to help individuals right escape the situations they're in in Syria. Who are been children who have been sort of in the custody of Isis? That's right yes Their their children who are in a three camps their children who were brought to Syria by women who joined Isis assist or were born in Syria to these foreign women who had had joined Isis and These camp the camps are guarded by the Kurds but on the inside life. They're run by ISIS. Because the Kurds don't have the resources to keep these radical women from raising the next generation of terrorists If you think think about what's in the interest of the child it's not in the interest of these children to grow up to be Suicide bombers murderers rapists rapist and so one of the issues. How'd he get the kids out of the camps and into a environment like a foster home environment where they would be Removed from these influences in and they brought up a more normal way. If these kids remain in the camps. Well I one possibilities that. The Syrian government will take take them over and everybody in the camps will simply disappear but If they if they actually grow up in the camps they'll never get out of them because no- countries going to take them back and they can't integrate locally so they would almost have a life sentence for having been per haven't been children born to isis mothers our parents and so you're trying to get a number of them trying to get them out. Ideally back to their own countries where they could go back to you know relatives or into the childcare system of their own country but if not that at least out of the camps and into a childcare system that the Syrian Kurds might run. So you're leaving tomorrow for the region I am. Yes okay. We'll leave it at the region guy because I know there are security issues. Thank you you for your service to our nation. Well Allen thank you for the service you've done in the in the Senate and I think also on Foreign Policy Elsie issues because we discuss them when you were in the Senate but I think also for the extraordinary work cut that you did on behalf of those who have served our country Ben and women in uniform more who've come back and have had difficulties in. I don't know thank you. Thank you thank you well. I hope you enjoyed Listening that beautiful music is by Leo. Cocky the Great Leo Cocky I WANNA thank Peter Burn for producing. We'll talk again next week.

President Trump United States president Iraq Syria Iran Turkey Isis Isis Peter Galbraith Assad US Senate Ukraine Peter Senator Johnson Putin Kurdistan Saddam President Ours Alinsky
STL221: Gary Rogowski admits woodworking is hard

Shop Talk Live - Fine Woodworking

1:05:42 hr | 1 year ago

STL221: Gary Rogowski admits woodworking is hard

"Shop Talk Live Episode Number Two twenty one today, I have a tree in store for everyone I sit down with Gary were ski for one on one episode we were going to do normal episode with Gary Rogowski, but seemingly everybody is taking their own version of a pandemic vacation over these two weeks. So it was just Gary I he blows my mind multiple times and tells probably the best woodworking hand plane story in the history of the world. I want to let everyone know that we have a webinar coming up August sixth at seven PM with Peter. Galbraith talking about spoke shakes. That's all the selling. I really need to do Peter. Galvin talking about and demonstrating spoke shaves. So head on over to fine woodworking, dot com slash shop class, and sign up for our newest shop class webinars. We've been doing a bunch of webinars and they're fun. They're great. You can ask questions and get them answered live. It feels like you are at an event. I've been enjoying him a lot. We've all been having a lot of fun with them and they've been really well received. So if you haven't checked him out, please do find during dot com slash shop class August six, seven pm Peter Galbraith spoke shaves boop. First off Gary. You've been you've been staying busy during during the whole lockdown. Busy. Ish. You've been active you have. Ours even just walking around worrying I. Active, all night long actually. And then Portland. Portland's kind of a strange place these days. There's there's. Areas. Yeah. And you know the easiest thing to do being a centrist like I am quite my fingers at all of them. But I think. There's plenty of blame to go all around well. Sue you're doing you doing lots of webinars though you've been doing online classes while we were starting my benches a mess right now because I've got hand planes strewn all over it flow because I'm sure you're bench is always super clean. Shot before. Because it's. Now I say that a a messy benches, the sign of a superior intelligence. ooh. Yeah, that's I guess you through a lot of stuff. Yeah well we. The first week of July I made a transition. reclosed march fifteenth reopened sort of in June and some classes with protocols in place. Distancing the benches were far enough apart. Doors are open and Orlando. And the class response has been pretty good. After are old numbers. So I said well, let's think about this. Online stuff I've been thinking about it for a while and thinking about doing some seminars. On? Sending up shop because I've got a new shop. and. So this. Pandemic. And the situation just really kick started things then. I had this great student studio. who had taken a class for me and? Had, all, the expertise oh my goodness. That make such a difference. Yeah. Is a huge. So he's t takes care of all. It's got the Ethernet cable and. A. New Yeah Faster Upload Signal and. All. That stuff that I. I know a fair amount about these. Holds. Plane. Yeah. Where's the port on the shoulder plan? Oh she. About the Veritas well hidden. Why you slide this hour. So, and then there's east cable right there. Listen if anyone's GONNA put an Ethernet port on a shoulder plane, it is it will be very wally Wilson. While you. Well so Is Your first online lecture tonight on. This is our second. We haven't we had one. July first on million. And this market tonight is on A. Ham planes you need at the bench. Will you be doing more for the listening audience? Yes. We will be doing a hands on. Workshop August seventh and eighth. On in Lice Secrets. So. Yeah. It'll be a mixture of me chatty for Awhile folks working. In their shop and then me adding again for three hours Friday night and then got all this work and then three hours in the afternoon on. Saturday that do similar techniques and answer questions and stuff. So we're trying. So, it sounds like a fairly interactive way. They. Go and do do the work on their own and come back and say I was having this problem I was having. So I'm trying to figure out the best way to do. The hands on education because it's is usually in close quarters, you're looking over someone's shoulder. Doing this way and so Bending on the numbers, we may have people. So on Zoom, you can have panelists and you can have. attendees. Panelists can talk. Got Fifty at ten days, which is Pretty much what we're averaging. You don't want everyone to be able to talk. That's just mayhem. So For, our lectures were doing QNA's so people can type in a question and. Then we'll helium who asked me the question move on from there. But. The. Workshop is a is an experiment because I'm trying to move my mastery program to completely online program. So in the past. It was a distance. I had last year. I had a guy from Philadelphia in L. A. and. Just down the road here in Salem Oregon and you know around the. The sanity. But. Now it seems like we could try and do this. More broadly and try and do it on. Great. That's. Also well, it it. It sounds like you are. Someone who who's not going to sit idle and you will. got. To to make it happen. Some let's let's. Let's answer some some woodworking questions sure from from listeners. And So let's see. We've got. We've got a few. The first one is from Jonathan. I'm a volunteer habitat. For. Humanity. And at a build a few years ago, there was a big four and a half diameter walnut tree that had to come down. After beating off the people that wanted it for firewood I got to take it home and have it sawn for lumber then stickered and stacked put a shed roof over the pile and waited it's now three years later and I'm ready to to put it to you some built from from a house. The lumbers got a moisture content of eleven percent. According to my more Schreiner and seems to be stable at that. Point. My house is heated and air conditioned. So I would expect that the eventual moisture content of the shelves would wind up around seven to eight percent. I've heard recommendations to bring would into the house for a while to let equilibrate but that's impractical considering the number of board fee involved. My shop is not climate controlled short of building a kiln. How do I deal with? This are proper construction techniques sufficient to deal with wooden movement? So. There's a lot here. Yeah. There's a couple of couple of issues. To deal with Number one I think is, why are you for shelves? Cabinets. Guy I, think it was built ends and I might have shortened or. Yeah I got Tang. Years ago. I was driving My sweet to the airport it's was. Early Eighties maybe even seventy. And we will take this rod wasn't. There's the freeway wasn't in place, and that's how long ago was and this they had cut down this walnut tree. On the street corner I knew it was going to be dealt. Just knew it was a devout it was going to be a seven eleven, one of those strip mall but. I couldn't. I couldn't bear it. So I liberated the walnut that was there on the ground. And didn't not get cut up for firewood. Unfortunately, the what it was mostly junk, it was full and not. I mean. There's always that that he's been urban trees are difficult. They're not well well care for it. But it's a would is good. I don't think you have any problems at eleven percent. This fellows in North Carolina. West Virginia I believe West Virginia. Trust from from my point of view Miso be the same place and jokey. Is Like I'm from New York City everything outside Brooklyn is West. It's moist there in the summertime. Is it not? Yeah. Yeah. It's really moist there in the summertime. So it's definitely a humid environment and then in the wintertime. Things, things completely reverse. Oh, a four percent moisture swing I think is going to be pretty normal for the air. So this is what I would do. Number One I would take a piece taken off, cut the whitest. You've got measure it put it inside for a couple of weeks. Check the moisture content in the shop I. Then put it in the house after a couple of weeks Jesse Jackson moisture content. I mean, if there's a giant swing, then I. then. I'd be a little concerned about it, but I don't think there's going to be a giants will I think is going to be us. So also a four percent swing you're okay with. That happens every year back. Yeah. Every maybe six percent. Yeah. One of one of my arguments is that. Back in the eighteenth century, they didn't have kilns. All of the lumber was air dried right but they didn't have acer. But, those pieces are now in a air-conditioned right homes. Right so is is it is is construction techniques. What is what has kept those alive? Yes. Here's here's something to consider think about this, you take a front door to a house. And it's got a bottom rail on it, that's maybe ten twelve inches wide. Happens, out here all the time old houses ten, twelve inch wide. CG for usually. Bottom rail to the door and the outside is exposed to the air and the inside is heated and cooled all year round. How in the world disaster? Arrive. That's interesting. How does survive? It's it boggles the mind and yet it does I think it does because is vertical grain. It is rift zone. And or Sean, and that cuts down on the movement issues. And I think if if you do pay attention. So you putting shelves into a Cabinet and everything is moving in the same direction, there's no need to work. You here's the thing. There's two things that we can agree on. US woodworkers. Would moves. So if you pay attention to that, you're not going to have. Problems with things split it. So if you're cabinet is built with the grain running all the way around it in your shelves are put in. So the shrink is direction is the same as the cabinet everything will be fine. Okay. So if if he's building his The sides of a bookcase? With with the grain running like you would side of a bookcase. And you do the shelves. The same way they should be moving in unison, they will be moving in us. About if for some reason, you're not to see need to be thinking about leaving the back of a mortar, intended, unglued or something or so what are some more techniques that you can you can rely on to to? Laissez built a frame and panel cabinet Okay. Some reason our he's attaching the shelves to something that's not GonNa move. then. What you do is is either have some sort of frame to sit your shelf on or glue in the front two or three inches. Okay and like the back end do his movement, but you have the front walked in. So you have that Nice Clean Agile on the front and then the back can move yeah. In and out and back east is GONNA move in and out and depending on. Where they are whether the valley on top of the hill, and really that does make a difference. There are micro climates And you know I built a A. Case once a jury case. For a client one time in just fine in my shop when she took it to her bedroom, stuck in a corner where really Dan and it's swallow right up. This stuff apps so. I want to touch on something that you mentioned and the idea of taking off cut and bringing it into the house. And using that as. A sample or A relative. Measure. Conscious an experiment. Yeah. Is. That something you do commonly why our? Okay. No I just checked moisture content I. Don't worry about a going to someone's house here in the Pacific northwest this is our dry period summertime dry period, and so humidity is down around twenty, five, thirty percent. something. Yeah it's Nice. You grow up in the Midwest you girl. Not a good day eighty percent shooting. Brutal. So yeah, the moisture, the movement issues are are far less. Cross the year. I sent a piece I use to Santa Peace Down to my folks, Arizona. Everything. Changed because the moisture you know the humidity's four percent. So yeah, you gotta pay attention to. How you put things together absolutely. To, wouldn't movement. So you're sending a piece of China let's let's say you're sending a jewelry box to Arizona right what are Like I would assume you are leaving. Tighter gaps. because. It's going to shrink when it gets there on on drawers or what are you are you trying to to predict the movement I'm sorry tighter gaps is an oxymoron like giant. Giant. True. We got real. No, and you got me on that one. Hobby. All my gaps are tight. Not. Box Down there and had a frame and panel lid. Okay. Free finish the panel. Glued to the frame when I glued it up and by Golly it blue that frame apart it it would has shrunk just blew it apart. I've had a Senate another piece down another frame and panel it and it's doing just fine. So you just have to pay attention to that stuff. Put enough finish on panel. So they're Frito expanded contract everything else. I'd be cautious, but everything else you just have to go with really tight joints. Okay. Hope for the best. There's two things I mean there's Arizona's. You know places in the Southwest Vegas. California. Can Be really tough on furniture. Yeah. Easier to build their and send it. To a wetter climate, they just have to worry about it exploding. Towards that opening and. Like. But yeah, pay attention to. Movement issue. So when I did this lecture, this online lecture on Mili. Lumber. One of the things I talked about was bruce holiest book the Bible. Of. A would technology. And in it he talks. About. Building with shrinkage in mind particularly for the northeast. And how much he needs. To leave. For A. Drawer. Bigger gap, he needs to have for eight inch tall drawer over the year. And here I leave the gaff about. Three thirty seconds just over a sixteenth of an inch and he leads an eighth of an inch plus So you know you have to think about where you are and how much the movement issues are years ago. Garrett Hack wrote an article for the magazine and he said I take a twelve inch wide piece of Cherry and I measured in the summertime and then I measure it in the wintertime. And I said that's a good idea I don't twelve inch wide Jerry. So that's okay. Also interesting. Expert. Who who a? The. Only person I've actually seen I think Kevin Rodale one time pulled out. A piece of Jeff was an oak or whatever but he had he had a board that he. had been measuring for years and and it was like, Oh, I need to do this now. When I was young and one day it can be you know a record of of my life but. The thing is and I don't quite understand this from a technology. Would technology. Standpoint. What is some points? Maybe after hundred says that's it. Just start to decompose you know which is why in the scheme of things woodworking. Is valued so low so if you go to Museum Furniture is not on the first floor. It's not on the second floor. It's. Be, in a corner holding a placard for the painting on the wall. I mean armor is has got a better I'm thinking about the Metropolitan Museum in New York. If you WANNA hide from a garden. So the furniture. Lockers are a good place. May Still. Catching. The. Because would doesn't survive. After several hundred years usually scoops. We're not prized as highly. So Woods after a certain point Idaho about Kevin's piece. It is certain point is going to. Go Away. But most of the time you know. You and the furniture mover. The two biggest issues. Shut off his truck. Neighbor. To neighbor who is got? Got The roll up door was hot in here today. So we've got. A. Good. Thing. Yeah. All right. Well. Let's see. This next question is from Scott and I have been holding this question I think specifically for you for quite a while. Just. You know some I I will. Come I will get a question into the podcast mailbox. Say. Gary were gase answer this and it goes in a folder and then when we finally make this happen, that's when these come out. From Scott I have been practicing join ARY on pine and poplar for a little over a year probably at this point two years just about every day. I'm still struggling to get things perfect and I, feel as though I, mess with it too much and always seem to keep moving my scribe line back. How much of making precise cuts and chiseling is muscle memory versus natural talent. Seeing this question. Also actually I know Scott and Basically. It's got two left hands and it's Real burden for for now. Through thumbs pointing the same way. I'm sorry to interrupt. You remember best in show where he's got two left feet. Got Two left. Now is not talent. I. Don't think his talents I. Think you know Dr Some woodworkers in the world like Philo who at birth you know had a chisel Lindsey and he came out of his mouth. Fill out with a one inch buck brothers. So, we're some would here. He is amazing. You woodworking survive from a very early age, but the rest of US learn. So I think it's possible to learn I. Think there are techniques. That will help and one of them is understanding the importance and the use. Of the most basic machine shop. There are. Five basic machine. But the one we use most shop is the wedge. That's a every machine we have in the shop as a wedge. Oh. Yeah. You give me that look but think about it. Every saw that we use as a wedge shaped. Every saw tooth is wedge shaped. Arches those are wedge shaped by plane irons have. Double Sandpaper is a series of wedge shaped Grit. Okay. You're transmitting this one that. Would shape files. Drill bits. There is nothing except I'll show you on. This Hammer. That's not. Holding the the head on their is oh, so there's there's and. So once you understand how wedge works. So number one for tool steel, it has to be somewhere between twenty five in a thirty, thirty, five degree angle what your. Lower. Angle for software woods so that will help in kind oppler. Scott's tools have to be super sharp. Pine if they're not sharp, he's going to have nothing but trouble and he's going to. He's going to break through his contract and cuts. Okay. So let's let's hit on that a little bit more in depth because that's that's something I think gets glossed over sometimes is that pine and poplar? Break before they cut most of the time unless you're super super sharp. So Can you can you? Why is that? Is it? Is it just a matter of? Or I'm sorry what I should be asking is. Is Pine and poplar. The best would for him to be practicing with if he's building skills. Well because you have to be so sharp. I I think they're great I. think they're great materials I also think that. If. He picks up a piece of Cherry sometime. He's going to be really surprised that the difference in how the would cuts. Beach. Woman goodness there is a world of difference. Okay. But learning how to sharpen is important for your joints. If your hand cutting your joints, having sharp irons makes all the difference in the world but as I say. You can have a lower angle in pine because it will hold up. In in a soft with like pine. Except for. Southern Yellow Pine, which will eat a chisel edged like. Doritos I mean it just crunches an edge. It's brutal. Roy underhill came out here one time to teach a class and they built at foot treadle lathe all in southern yellow pine. and. I went to the lumber yard and. Found for some reason to buy twelve planks of this stuff ten feet long. And decided to just by all out of the yard, my truck look like. The I. Think. You'RE GONNA, make it home. But her shock absorbers anyway. But it just brutalize our tools it's so hard so. Software designation doesn't necessarily mean sauce. Yeah. Do you. Okay. So let. Your on. Some weird. Island, and you only have always. Rogowski. Ville. You only have eastern White Pine. Lucky me. Yeah this is a great place, right Are you sharpening your cels at a twenty five degree level as opposed to thirty yeah. Yes. What I do as a general rule since I. I really like using. White Oak and Walnut. And I I like using hemlock. Okay love him like No. Nothing of it. It's it's another forestry out west here, but instead of for which is great if it's really tight. Grain on. A little easier to cut. Okay. Yes for Eastern White Pine Keep It at a twenty five degree. I keep my my edges at twenty seven degrees. So I don't go way high then uncle way low. So I'm as I. said, I'M A centrist I. Heard Somebody say twenty seven wow, i. saw I keep it at twenty seven for all my chisels I put a micro Babylon them just a couple of swipes back on the on the last stone to give me another five degrees. So I'm probably chopping at a thirty two degree angle. Rather. Tip. That will still do fine if the edges sharp. Okay. Be just fine and I think pine poplar are are great for practicing. But at some point, you move on and see the difference, but here's the thing. Scott's talking about moving scribe lined back. It sounds like what what's happening is that when he's chopping, he's trying to take too much material off and he's on, he's on the gauge. Line. So say you've you're cutting some dovetails. For Listening Audience Gary's listening. We'll say just pull out some dovetail. And you've got this gauge line right here we don't start your you've you know may maybe use a coping saw or something to get rid of some of the ways, but you don't set it right on the gauge line then to get rid of the remaining quarter of an inch. You start right on the very edge of the waste and take maybe thirty seconds of an inch pass and chop that away and because of the legend accident of Jizzle. Blows it away and here we are back to the woods. And understanding how the wedge will work to your advantage makes all the difference I used to cut dovetails like Scott. I'd set my chisel right on the gauge line and take a really light chopping fascinating clean up the ways because I knew I got a wedge shape. In it's GonNa move into the Goodwood if I hit it to heart. While after a while I finally woke up went. Forget all that just move out to the outside you can lack on it. Bang on that would you know it doesn't matter if it blows out and move your way back to the gays line so that when you finally set the Chisel on the gauge line is one stroke and you're taking away again fat thirty seconds of an inch of material in blows it right away doesn't matter if it's pine or popular beach. Small enough. Chunk left for your wedge to push it away. So you you are though a huge proponent of. Practicing On techniques. Like this is this is part of your ethos as woodworking teacher right is that you have dedicated. exercisers if you will. Right Yeah. We do this exercise call five minutes to yes and. People try and the boxes of scrap the we use. It says five minutes I've tell and someone put a zero behind the five. Raw. But what I tell folks is if you want to get good at. Cutting dovetails just practiser sign take a piece of pine. Put a gauge line on. One side only and practice sawing. And just practice signed. You can saw straight boy that. Makes a big difference in your in your woodworking life. Yeah. Maybe your entire life. So. When? Do you have your students move on to actual? Are, you don't need to practice anymore. You, you're ready for peace of. Right. Is there. Is there a time when it's like all right stop stop doing these these dovetail. Do a five hundred dovetail every morning. That's we should do. You. Know because I've done thousand. I should and the written is S. I developed this exercise years ago to teach people how to cut dovetails because the tail and what's the tail. And you look at one and it looks like a thing John you look yeah it's confusing it is. So I said, well, I'll just do this simple exercise never wanted to figure out this detail misses. The peon. and. then. I realized that it was giving me all this information about the student how they handled the saw how the handle the Chisel, how they handle success and failure. And they're not precious. These dovetails are not precious because at the end. Yeah, I've camped. And I'm going to do something with them then. You have a giant bonfire. Elon Musk and look at from from up in space. But what I've also learned is that I'm mark out my dovetails with a sharp pencil. And at this point in time I, don't use a marking knife mark out my dovetails I use a sharpens raise NOCA- I use an architects led holder and I can saw to a line and that's just practice Okay But I think the other value of of the exercise is to get your head and your focus tight tighter. You're walking from outside and there's a lot of stuff going on around you and now you're at the bench looking at. ASAKA that you have to make. That's s really different. And the five minute dovetail. And other exercises like that just to warm up because woodworkers are notorious for walking down into the basement or going out to the garage, grabbing their project and screwing it up. I've done it many. And it's so easy just to go there and practice a little bit baseball players. Practice musicians warm up woodworkers don't seem to so something at the bench just to get your focus tighter and warmed up. The muscle memory will kick in after A. Soap cutter too I I find that if I am cut dovetails in while in a building box, the first one. Second one is better. Third ones matter forth depends on my. Attention, he can go up now. So. With with that said the the Great Gary Rogowski is building a commission. Yeah. Do you. Do you do some sawing practice or something before you saw the dovetails for the drawer or the carcass or you just saw in the back of the arm not. Doesn't matter no I do some practice. Sure. Oh. Sure. Gary Rogowski Practices People. There's a story about frank clouds at one of the shows you know frank does. Dovetail. Joint where he just he saw us and then he saw inside bank goes together. And he was at a show and here's warming up before. said. Well, yeah. Got You. Know you have to everyone does? That is a part of the muscle memory. Is Understanding okay. This is how I stand. This is how a whole myself and and the more you practice the easier it is to remember. And get back in the groove. All right. Well So, we always do a segment and I didn't prepare for this because I didn't want you to think about too much. But we always do a segment. It's always like all time favorite tool of all time for this week or all time favorite technique of all time for this week or whatever, and when I was thinking about this I this is what I I was like this is what I want to hear out of Gary. Tell me a story about a hand plane. I've got. A, lot of stories. I know you've probably got like I, bought this hand playing off of an old man in a forest and what's the best back story for handling let you have. Wow Spread. Out All over. Well I. Think it's still this. Let me grab them. When I found a ham plane. Outside this House I was living at. PORTLAND. Sniper. Yeah. Well, it was a, it was an old house. There were about five of living their band was practice their the. Now in the main room I slept in the main room but. This is like like an ideal living situation it was freely. Parents were super stoked about this. They didn't know about. After College. Billy was there and Claudia was there and there was this giant blackberry patch. It was sort of carved out this area I remember walking through blackberry pants one night. And I walked into the same time. This possum often we both were. Ugly. We split. But I was walking around the House one time just this you know what I was doing. Exploring and in the bushes in the. Blackberry Bushes. Are This rain in the house? I found his hand play. A hand plane I recognize this as an plane I don't really know what it does I still have. Or is it? I swear to God. I didn't know that this is going to be this. Good. I found this ham playing on the ground. And I said. This does something. Own those. So I gave it to Claudia hold onto to form me because I was headed back east to visit some friends and went through Missoula. Some I physicist but either rocket scientists up Mazula then. Down, into Chicago where I grew up and then to. Michigan where. Chris was played in a band called radio king. And his rhythm masters in Chris Played Bass for them and I. Hung out there. My Volkswagen broke down on became a Volkswagen mechanic. I live screwy Michigan Winter. That was enough in this meeting. Go back to the West Coast because I've grown up in Midwest winters and back and I went to Claudia and she still had sampling. And It has a seventy six on and a bell. What's called a transition ham plane. So it's a would body. There's there's a lever do adjusted laid up and downs bothering with metal frog right and like, yes, have a metal frog this crew. Replacements cruiser Bright, and Shiny. Everything else is reasonable and I've never got to her I've never sharpened it. But it became sort of a symbol of this other world that I was interested in exploring because I I was going to go get a degree in literature and Goatee somewhere to college. And I skidded off that path and I, carry this with? So. Yeah. That's my probably my best. Had enough time I'd read a Bluegrass Song about that. Well We have. Just. Very large joke played a very large joke. I built a chair that was three times lives. Giant. Giant Jer. And so on. Youtube on our channel is a video of me and my assistant at the time Zach putting this chair together. It's a big job. And we do you know in? Takes About fifteen or twenty minutes compress a a little bit but in the background is John. Bryan plane. GRANDPA was a carpenter. Okay. Yeah. That works. Yeah absolutely. Yeah. It was a symbol of of different world in a different way of being in the world for me. Yes. forty-five Raider. That's fantastic. All right. Well, let's take a quick break. Did you know that leave Allie has free shipping on orders of thirty dollars or more right now, they've been doing it almost the entire lockdown period and I think it's incredible service that they've been giving to the community to help you get to that thirty dollar mark I'm GonNa make your life really really simple. You can order anything and add to that the twenty seven dollars and fifty cents leave alleys fifty piece Magna sampler. This is a fantastic collection of magnets. So fifty magnets fifty, five, zero magnets these are all great sizes you're GonNa need you know you need a drawer filled with magnets in your life? Everybody needs to are filled with magnets. Get a fifty piece Magna sampler and pretty much anything else and you're GONNA get free shipping from valley right now on any order of thirty dollars or more leave Allie dot com. Whatever you ready Oh. So I was thinking about old Mike stands. That's where. Turn. My head is right. For those of you in the listening Audience Bev, smoking and Doobie then. Got Me thinking about the blackberry pets and and Claudia. And that Ole Minnesota Winter. Next question is from Ralph and I am thoroughly confused by it. Okay. Most of the time I kind of know an answer. This one I am. Love it. In here I recently acquired a Stanley number five from an estate sale. After doing some cleanup on the plane body, I went to sharpen the blade after touching the back I started on the Bible. When I was done I reinstalled the blade and took a test the played only cut on about a sixteenth of an inch on each side of the. Blade. I pulled the blade background check the cutting edge against straight edge sure enough from about one sixteenth of an inch on each side the blade wallows out about a sixty fourth of an inch to thirty seconds of an inch. I made sure flat and the stones and the plane and the blade edge. But after I finished once again. It was wallet out in the middle of the blade I'm using a mark to Honi guide, Norton waterstones glass play Sandpaper to flatten. I. Haven't had this happened on anything else I've sharpened. Any ideas. So if I understand correctly the Sixteenth of an inch on each side of the blade is high, and then there's a belly between those two highs. Getting an anti camber right. And the thing that makes sense that his stone isn't flat I mean that's the only thing that makes put trust the historians flat. So just stone is flat and not a big F-, but if it's is flat. Known as flat than I would look at where's finger pressure is. So he's got his hands if he got his fingers on that gig moving it back and forth in his only pushing their. Or actually it's the reverse I'm sorry reverse. If he's only got two fingers in the middle is only pushing area might be wearing that out more than he is on the on the edge maybe he's used to sharpening thicker blades. Back, could be and it has never been pro. Kerry. I think you nailed it. Well. It might. It might be true but it's you can. Put a camera on a plane I R- I. I'm usually going side to side with it not back and forth with besides side. So are you free hand? Yeah I free him. I hollered Ryan, and then I freelance I can find the angle but it's pretty easy to do that just by putting my finger pressure at the two corners. That's like Campbell. So surprising how flexible that edges? On a on a plane ir and I think that's one of the things that people overlook. And they're into you know. Tight mouth openings and. Different stuff but I think that. Blade flutter is a real issue. Because the edges so so very especially Old Stanley's are the plotters in their way thinner than so thin than what if you've only used a a liaison are Veritas or would river whatever yeah. There's half the thickness. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes even yeah. Yeah. So I was going to tell you this other story so. I got my dad's tools at at a certain point where I decided okay I WANNA learn woodworking. I knew my dad had done some I never. Dan I didn't get along all that well But. I knew he has some tools and my my grandfather was gartner and has some tools. So I said, can I go and get those tools and I grabbed this little one won three Stanley Block. and. I turned up and I flatten the bottom and sharpen the iron and it's really thin pieces steel. And it's hard to sharpen but it was my dad's planned and I wanted make it work and it's got this terrible adjusting lever and it's really hard to move but you know it's my dad's plane. Really wanted to keep it in. The adjustment they blocked the blade down wasn't all that good but it was this my dad's him so i. And then Thomas Nielsen came along with. His one to. Plane, and I put my. Elect back there's such a difference. In the quality of the tool. On the sickness of the IR. Way, it locks down the way to just it's. This is the best amp line you can buy this one or two. As my opinion. And I've told Thomas this I say, this is the best empire you make. He doesn't agree but I think it's just remarkable what you can do with that tool, but I think it's a s a lot to do with as you say, the thickness of the aigner. And then how is held in place? And eliminating that blade flirt. So can can I mean with a number five you can probably easily go out and get A. I've another thought. On heart with Harvey. Ralph Ralph I'm sorry. Harvey. Was My boss foreign country Ralph. There's another thought and that is that the chip breaker. Says an Old Stanley. Might be pushing down more in the middle and the answer have been broken away or it's not flat or something. Or vice versa keeps thinking that's the way these camera but. He's got hollow. So maybe it's just pushing at the ends. Pushing those out just a hair higher. So so maybe he needs to tune up the shipren shipbreakers. Well. Yeah. Yeah I think I think he needs to throw both of those things away. You get a hawk iron and breaker and his life will change. His life will change I, think it's pretty clear that you've handled the hand planner to Gary. Well I still looking for the USB port on summer. Specie now and you a adopter. With you. I can't keep up with USB ports. I'm not supposed to keep up with amply. To get to USCC it's just the light fall. I Love I have to on my computer and one's broken. All right. So let's let's question number four and this one might do it for us When you? When you do little. Sorry. From Chris. when do you go buy cheap carbide router bits versus spending extra money to get high quality carbide bits. He's The listening audience Gary trying not to scream right now if you know, you're going to use them for maybe a handful of times does that influence your purchase? And I feel like, Gerry is a man of strong opinions. No, and he's about to share. Story years ago there was a a letter letter to the editor. About. Making a holiday mortis her. Were properly and some confirming editor wrote back Dome saying he should take your holiday a mortar and melted down into a plow share. Who would say such a thing? well, I did I was. Me Did get printed. Okay Got Booted. It's A. The issue router bits. Is. Harshly economic. Win Tour in Hawaii many. You're twenty years ago gave a talks about route joining my first book came out years ago. and. Everyone. In the islands around the islands uses coa because that's what anyone who moves their expects their furniture to be made of his COA. And depending on how close you are to the source on the Big island which were mostly grows. Is determines whether you use solid wood. War Solid Wood something here or just veneer. So the guys on Oahu just near guys on the Big island solid chunks bowls work they can get it more easily. Co has a tendency to. Tear up quite a bit and so these guys would do. would be to buy high speed steel bits and use them in them away. Because I speed steal bits and usually you're buying end mills are sharper than carbide. Islam so they would use them, but they're much cheaper. There are third of the cost. So it's just a question of. How much you going to be using this stuff for my money? It's always better to buy A. Car by Tippett, I'm not cutting call her other. Difficult words like that. And and then you have it it's a good investment tools investment. So even even a router is a good investment. Can. I'm confused because I don't know if I known that. High speed, steel, sheet steel you can make sharper than you can make carbon. Is. Just a question of how the carbide is bonded together with the. Metal too using. COBOL. Whether there's pools of it, how it gets mixed out and how it gets cooked. And It, doesn't it tends to flake away whereas a high speed steel edge tends to round over just like a chisel edge. And so high speed steel, you can make sharper because you can. Own It get that angle more precise. and. So it's sharper, but it burns because it. Credible get on it. you can make a sharper they don't last as long. And so. The guys that I met over in Hawaii we're using high speed steel basin just tossing them because they were. Ten Bucks a pop. Not, not worth re sharpening the value of carbide, solid carbide or carbide tip bid is that it's got longevity you can sharpen it. Three or four five times dependent on the bit. And and you've got a good bit. So why not have good software you can rely on. Crappy stuff that. Isn't going to give you a very good. So for For an og bit or something something that you're probably not going to use. You're not probably well, you might be able to find high speed steel version of it. You might be, but it'll probably be a quarter inch shank. Herb. Issues with it well, make it worth your while to to buy so I I would just by as you know. A good car, by Tippett, studio. Any, any quarter bits. Not if I can help it was. Well because Gordon Chang Brits don't last as long as half inch that they break under load and was a Swiss students. There are loads put on best now smaller diameter cuts you know. So if I'm doing inlay. I'll use a three sixteenths spader Nathan's bit. Those are always quarter in Shanks, but you get a half inch met with a quarter inch shank. Good. Student wanted to a three inch cut or any wanted to use a quarter inch. Don't. Not Not healthy So it's for it's for safety. Really. So that the end you get less vibration to. Yeah. Because the the mass of the bit or as just the the sheer strength and all that. Yes. Ashir strengthen and the flags you get, you get flex and a bit. So if you look at the types of bits that are available just straight. Just. Straight cuts not the OJI but the a straight bit. You can get a single flu, which is a production. And it can go really really quick, but there's only one cutter. Making a cut, every revolution was just going. For three. Hundred fifty, nine degrees of that circle. No part of the bit is contacting the would. So you tend to get a rough recovery because bit as. Victory is vibrate in the cup. But it goes really fast. So now you put a do flu bit in there and now as cutting. Twice with every revolution. That's it. So when it's cutting, it tends to be a little bit more stable. Go to a spiral fluid bit, and now your world has changed because there's always cutting edge against the sidewalls of your mortis in that will cut down on the vibration. Allot makes a much smoother. I don't know if I've ever made that correlation between consistent cutting edge in the movie with a soy a huge difference I always it was it was chip ejection or. Even just the the makeup because you're buying spiraled. Bit and it's a higher quality better or something like that. But thanks a lot of sense. Be careful. So at my old saw shot, which is now a barbecue joint. I said to Randy said Randy I need a spiral flu pit in he sold me aspire of loop it. Did, I know that it was announced by it I did not. So you got to know whether it's an up spiral or announced by what makes a difference? Yeah. I got a half inch down spiral bits on a cut a mortis it's packing the chips. And Sucks. So know that, but the fact that a spiral makes a big difference in how. Cuts whether vibrates are not filled years ago Termi honest Freud. Pattern routing bits that were spiro flu and you can go against the grain. You can go appeal with them, their remarkable they're amazed. So the Sparrow Fleet makes a big difference. In the quality of the cut same with the single flute bit or. A cheap double fluke there. You get what you pay for with woodworking tools. You always do and I bought a cheap. I found a champion at one time. It was fifteen bucks big champions like a two inch diameter champ forbidden and I, got it and I looked at it and I see that the bracing wasn't consistent a big gaps. Between the carbide in the body and it's like. WHOA. Sure I WANNA turn this. You know what? Twenty thousand PM's right in front of your face. and. So it was a fifteen dollar lesson. I was working. So. Let's let's hit this last question quickly. Last. Questions from Gio. When do tables chair? When you? Since. I should've reworded this but I'm going to go wendy tables, chairs and stools that I build rock, her wide you table chairs Vanderbilt Rock. That's what should be I. Make every effort. In to lay out my joyner carefully, I always seem to have to level the legs after construction. Do. You have any suggestions on how to remedy this. Yes, I do. Yes I do. Number. One your tables and chairs are not coming out. You know flat to the floor because you're doing woodworking. That's number one. Kerzner bad person is not because of a misspent childhood alot best possible. This person's case possible. No it is because there are so many variables. That, you know twisted twisted joint. The leg bands when you shape it, you cut material away that the other legs don't. We're. We are knuckle head designers because we're still doing this EUCLIDIAN rectangular stuff, we should only three legged. Pieces and we'd never have a problem. But no, we're building four legged visas, problems media. It's not you. It's just the nature of the beast. Here's the things you have to pay attention to. Build sections and then make sure those those legs stay the same same land. So if you build a legacy per table, make sure the aprons a little bit higher than low eggs and trim the apron so that your leg. Aren't exactly the same way, and then you put one set of leg apron together with another set of legs lakes able. To to do your whole table. Build. If you have a table saw. You can use that to trim the bottoms of your legs setting for a not going to even make a joke. Senate. For a really really fine cut. There's a video on this. Center for a really fine cut maybe thirty seconds of an inch. And use a flat grind blade. Used that figure out now, you've gotta understand what? Material and from where it needs to come from. So you know talking. So if it's wracking on those two legs, you don't test the to. They're already too short. There are already too short. So you pick one of the other two and you go over to the table citing you nice flat surface or. You don't have that. You could put an auxiliary she I'm thinking about A. Job Sites on prononce Zuberi sheet down level it true it. And then razor blade up through it. So it's only thirty seconds inch in you just Kinda Mo- that leg bottom. It works like chip. Okay. Works like a champ. While, we'll have to post a link to that video. y'All send. Yeah. Yes so it's just Are you. Are you surprised if you build something and there is no truing to a leg? Oh. That's that's still buy lotto tickets I. saw you always some amount and if you look at it bought into the legs carefully, it may be that they're all touchy but they're not insist. Yes it's difficult. There's too many variables. So here's the one thing I've learned I'm at this now since nineteen seventy four. Squares overrated. perfect is way overrated. And most things can be fixed. Most, things can be fixed after the fact so. quit beating yourself up ice spend hours trying to get my joyner fence where it was there was a a while in the cast iron heads. It took me years to realize it. Nine. Am I barely square my face on joyner? I do sometimes we went on doing Miller. But when edge lamb nations I'm just putting opposite faces to the fence so that when I put them together. Whether the fences eighty, nine degrees, ninety degrees, I've got a supplementary angle. I can fix so much stuff with the Hamlin after the fact. You. Know you see people build cabinet and they stick a square and there I why are you doing? That is depressing. It's depressing to stick a square inside your cabinet has never square as if there's a clamping pressure, there's the fact that it's usually not square who cared. Bills were out of square YUCK, make fit. Make It. We've got a new set of problems they're hard to manage. I'm not talking about being super sloppy and having. Big Gaps in my George. I am I'm saying that there are a lot of stuff can be fixed after the fact and and truing the bottoms of your legs as one. Alright. So where can people find you and more info you're on you're on. Instagram at northwest. Northwest Woodworking Right on twitter at Gary. Rogowski. Northwest Woodworking. Dot Com are Wendy twitter still thing. A website no twitter. I I didn't know where to workers are still on twitter. I Yeah I'm I'm there okay. I I'm on facebook to I. Don't like too much but I've got a it's necessary area. Dot Com is our website. And there you can find both our podcast which I do every other week and It's called splinters. And Yang, check out our online classes garage starting to ramp that well, and also if somebody. Loves, hearing stories of of the days of of all, what where, where can they get more of that? We're all. The podcasts has been running for. Three seasons now book to write. A book. Yeah. There's a handmade. Yeah. We create a focus in the age of Distraction Yup and tell tell the story of the Ham plane in that book. There's much story. Okay. Yeah. So so if if you enjoy. The backstory. Of of a woodworking life. CHECK OUT CHECK OUT GARY's book and what's what's most interesting about that process of Of offering the Book and getting feedback from folks is People. Right. Mean saying. God I know just exactly what you're talking. Yeah a lot of folks have have gone through this those same steps in their. In their woodworking life and it's you know I'm just another Schmo like everyone else. And you learn stuff along the way and it's been. It's been great fun. Right on. And practice your. Practice your to practice assignment Gary thank you so much for for coming burt. that's all for this. Of Shop Talk Live. If you have any questions, you'd like his stance on the show send them into shop talk at Tom Dot com head on over to North West woodworking. Dot. COM rank. Right. Give it again, and if you're watching on, Youtube Click. A thumbs up. Channel. Yeah northwest. Woodwork Ara and we'll be back in two weeks with another episode. Thank you for listening. Shop Talk Live listeners take a deeper dive into woodworking topics. Love when you join the fine woodworking unlimited community. From. Video workshops, projects and plans, tips and techniques you'll find everything you need to know to mastercraft. Try, unlimited now and enjoy a fourteen day free trial. Find out more fine woodworking, dot com slash members.

Gary Rogowski Cabinet Portland Scott US Dan I Peter Galbraith Youtube Veritas Midwest wally Wilson Chris Claudia Thomas Nielsen Kevin Rodale Cherry Senate John
MWA327 - Gary Rogowski

Modern Woodworkers Association

1:25:58 hr | 9 months ago

MWA327 - Gary Rogowski

"Welcome to the modern woodworkers association. A podcast about woodworking from folk. Who would work. Woodworking is what we do who we are and what we like to talk about so join us as we have a drink. Sit around and talk woodworking. Hi welcome to three hundred and twenty seventh episode of the modern woodworkers association. Podcast on call barton in. I'm here with my co host. Sean was newsworthy. And our special guest co host more kicks. Today were visiting again with gary rogowski custom furniture director of northwest woodworking. Studio in host. Of the podcast splinters with gary rogowski. Hi gary how are you doing. I'm well how are you guys. Good good good. But hopefully i didn't butcher your name to bed. No no you did. Well lavar at fantastic. I think last time you were on a new. I had a challenge as the resident polack. I think we're on the easy side of a. I don't know how many times i mispronounced. Your name sean. That anyway you roll through a pretty good. Well i figure that texas is it is. It is something that polacks after. Learn to roll with. But you can find if you go full on. Polish is it rogulski. E w e. and soften the os. You're good anyway. Well before we talk with gary about his You know what he's been doing especially the new online mass reprogram that he's going on. Let's roll into some woodworking news. So i hope which i thought was interesting is Lee valley has introduced a bebel up number one plane. And it's a cute little. Bugger and I don't know if i want one but I sure would like to try one out. It's it's cute But it's not exactly inexpensive like some of their other. Miniature stuff is is a real plan. Number one plane similar stanley's number one but just in a bubble up configuration stanley ever made a number one bubble up but you got two options of word that's on the blade still a one or pm via eleven and It's a hundred ninety bucks with a one in two hundred bucks with the beam via lebanon which yes go ahead and pay the extra ten bucks for the pm via lebanon But anyway. It's kind of cute kind kinda interesting as someone needs a small plane you know. The actually has handles to do some small delicate work. I'm sure is a great option. Especially if you like the devil configurations specialty great for ingrain and things of that nature so on. I've never used the number one plane of any sort. I never use it a love poem on top of that so would be a new for me. It's funny because i was actually lavallee earlier today. And i noticed this under like the new tools thing and i didn't even catch that. It was a number one this plane. I'm like oh but it means size-wise in it's not you mentioned the miniature line. The miniature stuff is like quarter scale up in the palm of your hand. This thing's like in incheon a little more than a half by five and thirteen sixty. So it's hit it would span your hand but if some of the bigger it's like two thirds of a block lane with handles on it and the way that the size of the dow actual rear handle is swung out beyond the body of it. Feel to make it a little more manageable by hand or to allow for adjustment and all that other stuff and but at just shy of two hundred dollars. It's get if you need it. Not like me because i've got a couple of tool dole's and they're cute and they're fun you know and they may have some use someday. But this is a way more or less than those things but I'm sure it's nice. It's one of the things. I wish that we'd have a show to try this out. Because i'm sure they'd be showing it off like they do other stuff. I had their bubble object plane. I really liked that good performer. At least ten years And it's it's it's It's good but with that said it's only bubble up playing besides a block that on so i think have one block playing fell off the rest of the standard anything. I am almost solely bubble up. Really yeah i. I have a low angle jack. Crumley valley sitting right next to the laptop right now. But i use it on the shooting board but i i use them for. Everything has the other big joyner plane. I don't i i guess. That's the one plane that i use regularly. That's not double up. But it's a loner It's a number eight. It's an old stanley number. Eight and But yeah. I'm looking down at my tool chest right now and there are very few planes in there that i use that are that are standard. You know your pitch Lane so what do you do. You recall what made you go down that path I like the fact that there's fewer parts. Oh yes you know rugs to feel with and yeah yeah you just loosen lever cap hold laid out and And sharpen so Also i like the idea some. I'm an industrial engineer by training. So it's the whole like you can swap a blade in and out and go from one angle to another And that so that kind of appeal to me it. Lets you create a system in your shop without having to buy a new plane or a new frog and So you can hone blades two different angles. But i. i found that forty degrees for the material that i work with day in and day out on a low angle plane is perfect. So i don't actually change blade angle that that much. Will i know one thing. About the the veritas. Bubble up jack. Planes is those blades or real. Good if you make her own ten cutters tim. Manny has a little tutorial on his website. You know hey. If you're one of my rumors here's how you make it cut or not follow that and i happen to have extra blade laying around and that's what i used it for Wow this works out. This works very well. So when i had to make another ten in cutter for arm posts and stuff i ordered another one like three or four those blades laying around and the nba eleven stay sharper forever for a job like that exactly exactly but now i've changed out. How my tenants so i got plenty of land around now so anyway enemy. I'll use them to build to work. Gotta deal with that said. Let's move onto blog post by a lost art press called r.i.p the anarchist finishing manual. So at one. Point Chris Wars was looking to write the anarchist finishing manual and he looked at it and said hey. I just really didn't make a lot of sense for them to do that. But so in this one long blog post he kind of summarized all of his thoughts befall chris. Where longtime you. You heard all of these things before but It is a great link to have all of his thoughts on finishing all in one blog. Post so It's real well worth the read and chose what you know what you know where he started with finishing and ended up so it's it's a great great so checkout lost art. Press blog post for that. That's a that's a long. Yes yes it goes down. Yeah the i knew everything he talked about. I'd read before But yeah it's nice to have it all in one place so it's kinda mini manual at. That point asked lots of good pros and cons there. Oh yes yeah. I spent a spin a memorial copy. One morning reading that so so good so next up we have a p. gabbert's doing a new video series on he's done some of these already About how how to use meal paint and and things of that nature but he has a new one out in. It's called the foundation and chair making with peter galbraith in. He's going over how to build to. Well build a chair and a stool. So he's doing his number nine purchase stool in the classic Who back Chair so Those will be available. He says I think there's already Content out there. The whole courses about seventy dollars and includes about eight to ten hours of instructions is not fully completely still a posting on that but Believe you can order that through a video and he's also going to be a publishing some plans for Both of that too. So i don't think the plans are out but i think they're real close to being now and i don't think those are included in the seventy dollars price. I think that's an additional charge for that Because i think that's another one. That jeff file let go is working out form so anyway should be a good thing and I haven't purchased it yet. But i probably will by the end of the week. Apparently the prices will go up as more content comes out so exactly you want to get the deal move early and then the last thing i wanted to highlight is our very own. Mark hicks got shot out front Chris worse so about the his upcoming at home class in the workbench kit. So congratulations on that. Yeah so that was megan So yeah i think we need to change it from being schwartz to being lapped down Any you know. It's it's the whole blog now. There's so much going on. He's got so many guest writers ride but yeah that was great. I had a There was a student will. He's a student now A person who added spoken with off and on About building a workbench for a year or two now and he was. He's taken a lot glasses with chris. And chris send my way and are back to me. I guess and He decided to take the class and then he went back to chris and said hey. You know i'm doing this class. And chris had no idea That i was offering this. And then i sent chris a message saying hey thanks for sending this guy back my way by the way. I'm doing this class. And so he's the guy. I've already got megan writing a blog. Post on it so yeah and it went from being you know what sixty percent book two hundred percent booked in a few days so good. I'm always happy when chris's kind enough to mention me or megan to mention me on their block. So yeah it was. It was a crazy few days with all those people coming in at once bad. Oh i can imagine. Yeah what's gonna ask you. How's it going so you're full up. Yeah well i limited it to six people. This first time around. That's has it's going to be a marathon to get the kids ready to ship out. It's a lot of work to get the kids done. Because they're they're seventy five percent built When they go out the door but everybody knows about that last ten percent of work that goes into a project so yeah so you know they'll be doing a lot of the work that usually takes me an extra week to finish And they'll be doing that over the course of six weeks or eight weeks depending upon how it turns out. It's the first time through. So we'll see head you to close down registration to certain point to allow that to be young new prep-work i well so i I initially four would be a good number. And then i thought. Now let's let's go closer to six. And so i limited it to six from the beginning and yeah but if you're asking about like timing i think i probably I probably would have prepared some some benches that were kind of like the popular ones the regular kind and and if somebody said i want to take a class and i said well i've got a thirty four inch high bench with walnut accents. And you want that. You can early glass. But why i have a waiting list and You know that's where. I'll go for people who wanna take it in the next round. I'm assuming there'll be another round and so yeah get on the waiting list. If you're you're thinking about it in the next the for the summer session or the spring session. I be surprised if you didn't open it up right now that you give people signing up. Yeah i just wanna see. I would love to do that. But i really. I'm one of these people that does a lot of research and worries about things so I started talking about this in july. And i'm just now to appoint with my schedule where i can actually have time to make the kits. So we'll see how the first round goes and then Make whatever tweaks need to be made and And then we'll go again so i'm pretty excited. It's gonna be on. Sounds cool man. I really wish you the best. I hope i hope it goes well. I'm sure it will but now there'll be hiccups but you know it's technology and it's new stuff so It'll be fun fantastic. Well let's move on to. What's in the shop so mark. How's it desk coming. It is coming along it's The drawers are spread across the bench. next to me here there glued up there's like forty clamps for three drawers and then the desk itself is behind me on the bench and i was while i was waiting for the doors to get setup. I started cutting the contoured apron. It's a it gets sliced up into pieces. Intern drawer fronts. So i've got a blend all those together. After i get glued onto the door fronts. The at the desk is running the shop right now. I know. I know how that goes. So yeah but you had some interesting posts on it. I know you had some issue with dovetails. Look fine to me well i. There's one that i can see from here. That has awfully large gap. It's going to need a piece of the near shoved in it. But that's the beauty of liquid. Hide glue you. Just warm it back up and shove the thing in there and you know you can you can actually like finish the joint see how it looks and then make adjustments afterwards instead of fussing with it during glue up got right. Yeah y'all mostly liquid hide glue. I don't know three or four years ago and never looked back. So anything complicated. Gets liquid high blue You know i blew the the lamentations for the tops with yellow glue. Would nearly everything else is liquid. Hide glue make sense. So shaw know what's going on. I got gotta draw on night really won the bid. It's nothing special. You know in front of the show slice of would dim charles Selling it on ebay saw posted in paid seventy dollars for what is apparently a of semi vintage straw night with a decent edge on it. So i brought down in my basement. I chuck a piece of wood up in my and vice night. I pulled a couple of things and rounded over a square corner yet. Works but otherwise. I don't know what the the first thing need to do is make make sure you know how to sharpen it. So i i you know i was so i know of the the gilbert shown right that's really mara honing right. It will be both. He has he. He's well binge craft sales at form now but There's a kit for rehabbing that comes kinda luggage sandpaper method Kind of it is. It is by the way i can. I can figure this out. Yeah but they have some course core stuff to to redo it But you might I'd recommend a looking at curtis buchanan's youtube channel and he has some stuff on sharping in it and this would be probably with the methods and tools. You already have. Okay i just be careful about grinding. One you know and i don't really have a grinder and so i and i don't believe it's so banged up needs a grinder. I think okay. Good getting yeah. So yeah. i'd i'd recommend looking at At curves buchanan's method that he uses. If some you you're going to do a lot then yeah. I'd go ahead and get the the draw sharp. I think it's seventy bucks something like that right. Yeah christmas too late now but yeah but you can do a lot with stones. Yeah and i. I have drawn sharp but i typically using my stones to sharpen my eyes so he. I know i know a lot of people who do that. i've seen some people use the the little hockey pucks. You do for sharpening axes. And use those for sharpening draw nigh so yup the draw sharp is kind of foolproof. Though it's you know it's it's easy to get right. Yeah the only thing is you know. Sharpen handroll knife is probably one of the more risky things you you're going to do so make sure you have your fingers out of the way i hear you i will. I will respect to the blade. Yes it is among the largest blades. I have been. Yeah yeah probably is. It's only nine expand about my hands with you. Know i you know when using her drawn off. It's really gonna take a lot to get cut by but when sharpening one. It's very easy blade. Yeah i am. Subscribed to courtesy began on youtube. I will core through his sharpening videos. Yeah yeah. I think there's only one out there. He's got a ton of videos on how to make a chair. They're highly entertaining. But yeah there. I think i don't know probably about thirty or forty videos. From the beginning he has some on sharpening all-time types of chair making tools But anyways at a bubble up down I don't know all let me get it. Hold on and then. I'll have a visual reference. Okay what's on your bench The chair so Listeners will know. I hope to have that completed a hope to have it completed today. It looks like it's going to be taro before i have completed. It's kind of been kicking bud a little bit You know if. I build something from plans. It's a piece of cake. If i come up with my own design so i don't have that much of an issue but trying to copy someone else's designs from the actual peace can you can go into some rabbit holes There was one end. The adirondack chair on being is probably twenty. Five years old made out of redwood and it's been sitting outside that entire twenty five years so it's it's crusty very crusty and So you know. I have totally disassembled and you know there have been a couple of pieces that thought were ninety degree cuts and then i'm fitting everything together and i'm i'm fitting the old old pieces to it to to make sure i got everything exactly riding. I'm going you know. Why am i like an inch off. And then i started redoing everything in you know what i thought was ninety. Degree cut was actually A bevelled at about two to three degrees. And i'm going okay. you know. it's hard to tell after twenty five years sitting outside whether that was straight to begin with or or already. So it's like okay. But i think i got across all the all the major hurdles at this point so it's just a matter of putting it together muscle building a thing out of cyprus. Which is you know you look at that stuff. Bunning dent so. I'll have like a a wet towel in iron on at all times out the dents as you go along but Yeah that's what i've been working on also been Been trying to do probably about four hours a day on that and the rest of the time. I've been working on some special projects. Which i hope to be seeing the light of day year in the next Month or so but Anyway sean you back. Yeah i'm here. So are the are the handles in line with the blade or they are. They Their error so slightly or their twisted down but not. That's probably a bubble up. Then yeah i. As i'm holding on the idea is a more comfortable to hold it. Well when you cut with something try it both ways in which yeah when it is the little ben. That's there. If i put the bubble down my hands are above the blade and that just feels weird like holding it now so it's nothing it's nothing too fancy it's like a good a good opening to god. Oh you're up i didn't let me try to Turn off any background so that it will show better okay. So it's it. Looks like a bubble up candles lands. Were pretty cool. Yeah yeah they're old. I mean th there's like. It's got a little and bent over through the end of it. So i don't know if it was handmade or what it's old i know that much cool. So yeah we'll see it's the first step down the rabbit hole. Yes wanted what will end up being twenty or thirty drawn. is you'll own. yeah. That's what i figured. At least four or five Spoke shaves and welcome to the club. Thanks fantastic will so Gary what do you got going on in the shop. What do i have. I've i've caught Let's see this project has been going on for a year and a half I put a little time into it. And i set it aside full-time into it. Yeah i've got so many of them. It's just a little bookcase that i started I was down at the diablo. Woodworkers group Which is east bay. East bay of san francisco bay and You'll have like leather jackets or something. Different diablo group. They're not interested. They like the draw knives a lot more than the bookcase. Okay heavy drinkers gotta watch. Heavy dream No i was actually. That's not true. It wasn't diablo. San diego i was down in san diego for the woodworkers their group and i did a did this project on stage which is just brutal in two days and so i had one two of them and Brought the partially finished one back with me and it's been yeah over a year trying to get it done and so i started online classes this summer this july and i had it and and done some inlay some cooling lay on the piece. It's a little small book as big as it's i don't know. High dividend tables twenty four inches higher. So twenty eight inches. i And you can pick it up easy. Moving nice little arts and crafts style piece and i started the Video that the online class. I mean and Brought out the bookcases. Set it on top of my bench and pointed something out and turned away checked it. I said yeah it safe and turned away and it slowly fell off my badge and hit the floor and i went off crap. But i'm live. So i said up no problem and i didn't think it was There was a little ding on the back edge of one of the sides. And that's where the rabbit for the back was gone. I said that no problem so months go by. I don't do anything out of moscow. By and finally i get around. Get all everything done. And i'm practicing my glue up because i always practice my gloves and i'm hammering the peace on and i'm not killing it with my dad blow mallet. But i'm to happen it on and i get it all the way home and i go. I have cracked it. Cracked did not all the way into a good third of the way. So i carefully got it apart. And i glued it back together and then scraped the glue joint. And then i was like dang i can't see this now. Where am i going to put the butterfly kiet on. I don't know where to put it. I mean it disappeared that that well but i put in a couple of keys anyway and got ready and decided i was going to do this. I should use hide glue. But i think it was too cold when i go up for my shop so i i put one side on dry and glued the other side on in the morning fine. No problems with home had launched came back to shop gently. Got this other side off one with the butterfly keys on it colluded up and i realized that at some point it was about three quarters of the way home and i heard it go. Oh it's like white. So i might podcast. I will recite the little note. I just put in my newsletter about the value of swearing. And and i you know. I couldn't stop right. I mean the middle of a glue up. i can't stop and there was a student Who comes to the shop. Every was well and he had asked if he could help. No jeff. this is no problem. I got this no problem at all. And i'm screaming my head off. The guys like this man is crazy. This man has lost his mind. Temporary well glue. Ups are temporary insanity. There's no question anyway. I got it all the way home. And then i had another crack in it in a different spot and i fixed. That was a little bit. Trickier grew up. And i put him another couple keys in it and they're great and then i realized i had dropped that peace. And that's why. I was doing that. So i thought it was the walnut. Swallows really saw now. Don't drop your furniture before you clued up. That's the moral of the story. So i'm i'm working on that and Yeah well we have a lot of questions. I have about how your new online mass reprograms going but Before we get into this For those. I think you were on the episode. About twenty episodes ago i believe is the crow flies and the So for those that. They're new to to our podcasts. Listened a tour back catalog yet. can you give us a little background For those their new about yourself about myself. oh. I'm about five nine. No i'm i'm a furniture maker for the last forty plus years and i built custom furniture for twenty five of them and did Mostly private commission some public work. A few public were large public pieces. In as i was finishing up and then in the mid nineties i started writing. I started writing for fine woodworking before. That but i started writing books in the mid nineties and put a couple of books out and started my school i started to school in nineteen ninety seven called the northwest woodworking studio because there was this divide at least on the west coast. Perhaps you know the places. But i could see. There's a real difference between schools that were sort of Air quotes art furniture making art furniture and You know places just teaching cabinet making so for someone like myself in the middle. That was interested in both design and technique. And that's what our school has been about for the last twenty years that's fantastic and you've been published in all the major magazines. Have how many books do you have out while to Woodworking books out. And then. I've got a book called hand handmade creative focus in the age of distraction which is a book about The other things you need it the bench Like forgiveness and all that stuff and you know good vocabulary of curse words. Well they come in handy. Yes yes they do and try not to throw things. Oh yeah no. There's no wrong yes. I'm usually pretty good about that. But i do have one clamp. The handles But anyway. At least through the clamp not to work say i had i had an employee throw a framing square like one of those little half sized framing squares at all man. That's like a ninja star going. Yeah and it stuck in the rafter and it was there when i moved out. Oh gone down at scary ex. Yeah i don't know what what it was but he was His daughter was having a fight with his daughter was also working at the shop. Yeah it was it was. It was one of those days. Wow it up. I guess if across the shop so weren't on the receiving end. He made his point ended up. Yeah okay that's a good one. I like that Well so tell us about Your northwest woodworking studio and your online mass reprogram. I think when you are last on the show you were just thinking about doing this and get going and So tell us a little bit about how that went and and where you're going from there. Okay well we started when cove it hit everything shutdown class wise for us real running. Oh we would see upwards of three hundred students a year normally when novice classes and project classes and then a mastery program i would usually have residents Taking up bench base with me for years time and distance program and everything just kind of went in the round file and then And then portland became a completely insane place to to be routes and all that it was just nuts. It was right right across the river. Yeah has calm down. Yes calm down. Yeah that's what i've heard want to check with you. Because i think that that is interesting episode. Listen to because you can actually hear cars honking in the background. As her going to that was yes. Yeah yeah that was. The black lives matter of neighborhood. Car van caravan. Which you know that's great. It's it's also i just. I'm going to stay away from politics. Sorry yep so. It's everything about the demonstrations and marches. I'm all for it. That's great yet and people get angry and starting to break stuff and that's just stupid and cops respond and and then the proud boys come in and and the the left is like. Why are the cops protecting us from the proud boys. You've been throwing stuff adam for the last three months. What do you think out of. And so i decided okay. I had a student fortuitously who was interested. had taken some Short classes with me and new a whole lot about technology and was in the business of doing big online events. well actually they. They used to do Ticketing for actual events and moved into online event big big company and he was willing to help and so i said well. Let's try this idea of doing online classes and so we we started to do that. And and to see what sort of response we're going to get. The response was great doing lectures and then we tried to day workshops which was different But good it's a little bit tougher. And then i thought well you know i got this mastery program and we used to do it as a distance thing where people would come in three times a year. What if we tried to do this. Weekly like my local program and same curriculum See if we could get folks to to sign up. And i was hoping for five and i got thirteen so it's just been it's been great. We're about started in october Now what makes us different than online classes because this is more than this isn't like a a two week type thing. This is like a belonged coerce. Yes this is a two year to your two year courses. study Well i don't know a lot of about the other Online on you know. I i you know. I've been down at the whisperers. I've seen the some of the stuff on youtube of course but basically my approach is to focus on design and techniques. So i'm teaching design as well as technique in i want people to get pushed out of their comfort zone and move beyond working with plans and and copying other people's designs and start starting to make their own. I had an interview with a student this evening before we started to chat and He's a doc his daytime job and he said. I can't draw my wife's an artist she said i can. I can't dry and we started talking ideas and It's so much fun. When people who have who think they have no artistic ability start to go. Oh yeah i could do that. You know i couldn't. I could try this and and take a simple simple frame. One of the first two project is a simple frame. Mira framed picture frame. I don't care and and Shaping carving adding something to and so we were talking about ideas and it was that was fun and so that's the difference i think is what we're designing work as well i have Eleven pieces picked out over the to two year period. That people have to build but they do the the design were. the first. is a small box called sushi box. I did an article. Five fine woodworking about it some years ago and then a mirror frame and then we do dovetail box and the low low bench or table and so you know i'm choosing the pieces in audited talk about texts some techniques and introduce them to some different ideas design wise but the design is all their whatever they want. So i've had dovetail boxes that are eight feet eight feet high in their tool cabinets. And i had one. They could fit in the palm of your hand. And that's fun. It's really fun because people are trying to develop their own sense of style. What's my style. What do i liked to do. And so teaching people bought that we did. We did in our last week on On godwin godwin the architect. Yeah great stuff and just talking about one of his pieces. You can pulled image from the metropolitan museum of art vials. It's a little a fall flat table and talking about whether you like it or don't like it and why you like it or don't like it and what are the things that make up the peace. And what were some of his influences and he though beast but he was the designer in you know it just brings up just as a whole array of topics you know. It's just a lot of fun so that's what we've been doing And i'm trying to get another group going in january. Yeah yeah well. What have you learned from your online experience How does that compare from. You know the in person thing you were doing are you. Are you finding this different or is it more engaging less engaging her or what are you seeing. Let let let me. Just say this. Kyle being a furniture maker in one set of skills and being a teacher is a completely different set of skill. Yes it is. Yes and you could be a great furniture. Make him be a lousy teacher. And i've learned so much about teaching over the years and now i'm learning more. It's it's hard for me But i'm getting the hang of it. It you know. I'm really familiar with doing video. Work and a lot of videos for woodworking for youtube and stuff having an audience a live audience behind that blue dot on. The camera is different and the feedback. And are they getting your jokes. I don't hear anyone laughing. That makes it tough. And you just have to have confidence in yourself and And his performance to it's a performance But the performance has has a mission. I'm not doing it just to be cute and doing it so that i get them excited and come on follow me. I want to take down this rabbit. Hole and we'll talk about drawn is and so that kind of stuff is really fun and bev. Love versus bevelled. Down tools is really fun and So i'm learning a lot about the camera stuff when we do a an online class so we have an online class tomorrow on what i call three simple finishes. I am lying lying. There's nothing simple about finishing but it's oils varnishes and shellacked and Two hours so with these lectures. I started the day before. I'm going. what am i gonna gonna two hours. And then when. I start to gather my nose i go. How am i gonna get this in two hours. There's no way so you know. We're just scratching the surface. But i've got now two guys. I got three cameras on me. They got a close up shot again. A medium shot. They got shot. I got wow it's amazing. These guys are just avid woodworkers and they love to help but they're really skilled at doing video work in sound. Were in so the row. Helium and Paul come out and help me out and Shows was going to ask you what kind of set up. I think i. I don't know if there's a blog post or whatnot but it was kind of your your setup that you had there why I guess doing one of the online classes in. I was impressed. You have quite the quite the technology at your disposal. So it's nuts and it's actually relatively inexpensive About video camera. But that was you know a couple of hundred bucks and then there are people who are walking around these things called iphones and iphones are stupid and ridiculous. What you can do with them. It's ridiculous so we're doing a lot of stuff with iphones and video camera We've got web cams but use those now and we can switch. I gotta switch So gather i guess. That's what i was. Seeing was that switching unit you had there is the looked at looked pretty professional there but again. That's not in my wheelhouse. Rowe said by this by the a black magic switching unit and it's pretty straightforward. Now my mastery classes. I'm i have no cameraman. I'm doing it on my own. And last week. I realized something. You know. we've been doing it. And i been having a little bit of trouble with with setting up the shots because because i don't have a camera man and So i realized last week that we Which shot a video of a project. That i'd done simple mirror frame project and It was about an hour in length and we got together. We talked about godwin for an hour or so. We talked about Circle cut in on the band saw for a little bit and then using spoke shave to clean up your cut and they did some work for a while. i can watch them to monitor. So i can. I can see everyone's setup but then the last hour was a video. So i could sit back and listen along with them and so that is interesting. There's so there's different ways of providing the content and in veteran worse ways I'm realizing so yeah. I'm learning a lot about the techno about being on in front of the game. let's fantastic. We'll take a bit about so if someone was interested in online mastery program What what are we looking at. As far as time commitment cost those kinda things are basically well number. One people are working out of their own shops so they need to be able to mill up lumber than either power equipment a to be able to do that They need a full array of hand tools and shop space. That's so there's a commitment arab everyone who's been involved in this first master group anyone's really has been in the program over the last twenty years and has been running for twenty years has some kind of shop and this may be the kicking the but they need to get the rest of the shop tuned up. Then that was that was certainly true for One of our students who is just getting things wired first couple classes we were talking about. How do you choose lumber. how do you And that's a that's a big deal When i started the program. Twenty years ago i i looked at what was out there. And there was north bennet street. And maybe the credit off school and then the big the biggies you know res- and and Rochester institute you know some of the bigger schools Cranbrook can yeah. Most of these places were people would be there for a year and they build one or two pieces and if you wanna be a furniture maker you gotta build faster than that You really have to. And so my goal was to get people to design and build and practice these techniques over and over again so he had to mill a lumber. You know every month you had to be mellon of lumber so you had a chance to practice those skills. And i think that's really bad on the technique in designed so people need a full set hand tools. People need some equipment. You don't you table. Saw you need a band saw. That's the machine. That's the first machine you get as a band saw and then you know joyner. Planner drove breasts. Router full set of hand tools. So he can hand cut dovetails because we handcuffed up to We meet four jeeze. I don't have the number right in front of me but three twenty seven hours a term. So we yeah. We meet every friday. This group meets on friday afternoons for three hours to three hours and We have nine sessions twenty seven hours per and we have three terms per year times to so do the math. It's a lot harder than forty four hours of class time and then um where we have a discord we call it a discord server. City people can come and gathered. Aaron exchange ideas and Talking about the people take advantage of that. Yeah absolutely i drop in every now and then and i did did once and just you know kinda poke around on sunday night and all of a sudden. This voice comes out of the computer and go. Oh you're here like whoa to graph on. It could have popped up as a video if you're not careful. Yeah so. I mean i'm not a techie at all. So that's that's a little strange but other people are. We've got a lot of tech people and people from virginia ohio California oregon washington Missing state oh. Yeah pablo's in connecticut so we've got a oaks and The two year program costs five thousand bucks a pretty comprehensive. So i understand. That's a chunk of change but will for two year program. It's very reasonable. And plus i think this gives a lot of people the opportunity. That can't come to portland to do this course or or like you said. I think you said the initial courses. You know that y'all meet how many times a semester three or four times. Yeah did you say so. That that way those people that might be interested to worry about airfare and hotels and all that kind of stuff to come in for a year. Yeah this is half the cost of our regular program. I guess there were. There was twice dash and four times for our resident so And yeah and there were costs associated with coming out. I had one student who was in florida. And you have to bring your pieces At the for each of our sessions except the very first one and he was in florida and finally it got to the point where he said the only way i get my stuff out there in a reasonable amount of time And you know economical. Way was by greyhound bus so got peace out a two weeks before class and it made it and never had brought so yeah. There are challenges with that with that. The challenge with this current mass. Reprogram is not being able to touch the pieces right. that's that's the challenge in hopefully covert gets over. Hopefully if people go out and take vaccine when they come come around right clinton believe in science. It's worth it believe in science anyway festival. Box Maybe we'll be able to get people together for a visitor to so but that's that's a challenge. Yeah yeah so. Gary i was trying to formulate this question so it didn't sound like you know what's going to be on the test but So you know your your classes not for beginners right. It's it's you need to have some experience. You need some experience. I i won't. I won't take beginners. Because it's it's not fair to you. Ryan and i think that the more experience you have the more you'll get from program because i adopt sort of the fire hose approach. I just cover everyone with information so go ahead. Sorry some of its stick. Some doesn't play. So if let's say i'm listening to this podcast and i'm thinking this sounds great to do this but i'm just getting started but a year from now i'm gonna apply and i want to get in you. Know where do i spend my time. What do i focus on. That's a good question Well you know it's like people say well. What tool should i buy. Well what do you want to build. And so it goes back and forth chicken eggs What i what i say to folks is build a lot of stuff build a lot of stuff and have it use it live with. It was a revelation to me. When i could afford to start living with my pieces. I mean at the very beginning. I i would make stuff for me and my sweetie but then i stopped doing that because i couldn't afford to. I had to get pieces. Sold and i wasn't living with my own stuff. And it's a revelation and i realized oh i can't have any neared pieces of my life i would beat the hell out of home. I'm hard at my furniture. Put my feet on stuff. I you know veneer is not for me. It's just it's amazing stuff and you can do crazy beautiful stuff with it. but it's not for me and So that helped to inform how i built stuff and how he designed stuff so making stuff and having it and living with it you walk around and say. I really liked that piece. Well the next question is why and this is. This is true of a piece of music or a piece of art as it is. A piece of furniture is understanding. What it is you like about it. And it's great to build your own stuff or or even if you're going to give it away to build it and be able to look at it three sixty and say yeah the disproportions really suck Very good job here so you need to build. Some bad furniture is that which bad furniture teaches you a lot about good. I should should be. And i've got i've got gotta show the group photo of a you know it's a mass produce Chest of drawers. I think you might be able to call chiffon on. Yeah so it's a cabinet on cabinet address or three tour dresser in three case on top. But i've got it up to this place in mind looking at it in it. Cast off a friend of mine gave. And it's got all sorts of early gigs and curlicue and stuff. That i don't like it all but i was looking at the peace. What that is a handsome piece is a handsome piece because of its proportion and that's what people don't don't understand it i that's what they will and they're done after two years. How important the proportions are apiece. How it hits you. Will you walk in the room and and from there you're gonna discover what it is you liker don't like about but the proportions i think. What draws us. yeah and And so building the stuff of building. A lot of work whether it's by hand or with machines You get a chance to practice techniques and practices senior designs. So that's what people need to build a lot of stuff that's learn learn vocabulary. Learn the language boy. It's really true. sean There was a point in time. I was sooner. Probably the early nineties and You know i'd never made a fortune as as a custom furniture maker. You know the old saying how to make a million dollars has a furniture. Start with Assume that that school. And but as as i wrote in my book handmade the woodworking gaza really cruel to me because they would only give me just enough to get by. I've never get over the helm. They've come on. Hey here yeah yeah. Here's your more. 'cause i'd i'd be finishing up a month long project in and look up. Dang i need some more work and and that psychic network always seem to work for someone would knock on. The door gave me call. I'd get my next job but that Yeah it's a. It's a tough way to tough way ago. I'm sorry off on a tangent. There what we're talking about no no. That's that's good. So from what. I'm gathering from your class and stuff is i wanna say. What's the percentage you think between design and actual technique you teach in the class. I say it's one third two thirds and waited in on the techniques But you know the fact that we were getting our out of three on design is is really pretty cool. Okay okay but yeah we do So a couple of weeks ago. We book drawing on the right side of the brain is on their reading this shitty on. Everyone's a wonderful booth a great book. Yeah that's a great book. And so we did the upside down dry. And i got a lot of tech is one checkout and a could just I could hear them break out in a cold sweat. We're going to draw with a pencil. And i said yeah you can't you can do this. And they did. And it's amazing. It's so much fun to do that and to show people the way because it's the vocabulary that's what it's about i looked up. That's what i was my ran. I looked up one day in the shop. And oh you know what. I have a lot of a lot of bags on my design bag. I got lot of tricks that i could that. I could use here and understanding that. Just kind of lighten things up for us and it's and it's simply vocabulary just like learning to speak or learning to sharpen. Your tools are certain techniques that you need to get the hang off and then once you do that. There's there's a lot of fun stuff to to explore. There's tons of fun stuff to you. Remember when you used to be bored. Yeah yeah i had a real. Yeah right exactly. Because there's so much to do. I find and there's and there's so much to explore and South stock was a student. Dave tonight about Design and he had this idea about wrapping copper wire on the edges of his mirror frame and well they have a little problem. Bending this wire and you know if you inlaid this and you could do some or you know what you could do is is try and mimic the idea of a braided vine which is what the idea. He was after. I said we could do it with inlaid a copper groundwater you just get the right job at drill holes insert the copper little spot in super bowl and then you could color it because you can patent eight copper. And there's like twenty or twenty five different easy chemical changes. You can make two copper saltwater differently and and so you could do like this. Dna molecule and he said oh. Yeah yeah. I took class for wants from the watching part of creek. I was like oh cool. That sort of stuff happens it is cool and and he told me that crick and watson got their idea from a woman scientist. Who didn't get credit actually looked up before i was talking with you guys. She died before the game out. Oh yeah interesting. Yeah pretty interest wrong podcast. You have a podcast yes Tell us how that's going splinters. I don't know. I talk to a microphone. And there's no one there and they don't talk back to me. And i don't hear them laugh so i i don't know i think i think they're mad at me. Okay now it's It's an interesting experiment. It's an. I'd never done anything like this before and My last distance group at a couple of guys in there. Who said oh. Yeah you gotta gotta start a podcast get patriotic and i'll be rolling in money in no time at all and so i was putting out a podcast every week and that lasted for. I don't know a few months. And then i realized i'm killing myself here. It wasn't fun. And i want to interview some folks. I interviewed tomlin nielsen interviewed. Ron hawkins brian blogs people no. That's that's fun working on the an interview with the kerry chin. The guy who owns Garrett wade catalogue doesn't do as much woodwork and stuff but back in the seventies and eighties. He was one of the go-to places can spun anyway. got started. Yeah exactly yes. I didn't bring him up. I wasn't sure how that ended by that. That's been fun. But i scaled back a little bit and i'm and it's been a lot more fun. I really enjoy writing. So i write an essay of for my newsletter and blog posts and and then repeat that on the on the podcast and that's a lot of being getting a great response. Yeah i if you haven't heard this. Podcast i mean you. I think you jokingly referred to them as sermons but It's just a really mellow way to twenty minutes. Somebody that are kind of rooted in woodworking. But they're more about just the world around you and you know your history and Kind of your philosophy of life. I would say and your your Your literary background definitely shines through They're very well written and well thought out. And it's a really enjoyable podcast. Thank you asked. well it came up because When covid hit I got a cabin in the woods. So i was out there and and i you know my newsletter was always oh novice woodworking monday nights intermediate woodworking wednesday night said. I didn't you know it was just advertising bladder important information but that was it and i thought well what am i start just writing stuff and i don't if it was my first one but there's one called bird brain and and it's about looking at the birds outside my window and and and how that sort of relates to humans in the squabbles. We have yeah anyway. It's it's been fun. It's been a lot of fun. And yeah i mean we get people. Were listening to it. So i'll have to echo mark's comments think he should've said it any better but it's a fantastic podcast. You get your woodworking in a in a lot. More out them so task i look order. Ghozlan amel chansa short. So we'll we'll just date sean. We're not it's not a real long term commitment. I e hours and hours of guests in week trust me. I have room for this. Okay yeah i usually lead to usually two or three episodes stack up. And then i just plow through so but but anyway let's move on so we have a new topic mark brought up in think it's basically just to get your take about designing copyright. I know this is always something very much trap. Not especially so. When is a prolific as you are and just. What is your take on other reproducing. Your designs whether something they saw on a magazine or or oh and and how do you feel about them using it. If you're gonna use it you know. Hey for personal. Use assume. Hey a magazine. That's fine but suppose they take that and say hey. I want to sell this. So what what's your take on others reproduce in your designs from those two aspects. Here we go next. Everybody seems to have a different set of rules that they want people follow. So i think it's important as a person who's who who writes for woodworking magazines. Maybe cells plans you know like what do you expect people to be able to do with those bland's after they go out in the world well you know in all seriousness a bringing that some stories and bit i think people need to be cognizant of the fact that it's difficult thing to be a furniture maker in this world and in in this culture and Just treat people the way you'd like to be treated so if you think that stealing designs and and cranking out ten a week is a good idea. Okay there's nothing that i can do about it. There's nothing you can't copyrighted. And but i would ask you to examine whether you think that's the way you would want your designs to be treated But i understand that. Every time i wrote an article or a video that was out for the world to to use the very first article wrote for fine woodworking. There's one thousand nine eight and it was on my stool the stool designed that. I do and I've seen the stool design everywhere and that's fine it was out there The guy who wrote me from florida saying this is such a great design. I'm making ten a week seriously. He wrote me and said that. I thought that's tacky us little tacky But that happens another time. I'm watching this of course older than you guys but I'm watching television and watching. North the the show northern exposure. Yeah this is back in the early nineties. And i would tape it because i was teaching and i would come back and i would You know watch the tape of the show. And i'm watching the show one time and it's Maurice the astronaut giving giving a talk at the the two gay guys Bnb and the japanese tourists have come to copulate under the aurora borealis. That's the setup. Great maurice's talking. And i'm watching maurice and in all of a sudden in the background i see my love seat to what it is very distinctive. This is not a love seat. You've ever seen before. And i was like what so i found out who the production designer wasn't. I wrote him a nice note. I wrote him a nice note. And i sent him as a sheet of slides. 'cause that's what we did back then and said here's you know pure if ever want one of mine just let me know and they were shooting up in renton washington and so he invited me up to the set and that was just. That was cool. Now i was just that was rough because everything's fake. Everything's fake every time. I see a tv show. Now i see the light out. There were no i go. I know how they do that. That's not the narrative except cables in a warehouse. But i know how they do. So it's really interesting and the love seat was a article. I'd written for fine woodworking. They built out a two by fours. But it looked amazing because television puts this screen between you when in reality so that's fascinating that was. That was really fast. And i was pleased. That woody i forget his last name would he was the designer Used it. I mean that was really great but my last story is someone came to class one time and said here's this guy in montana and and look at his business card because i'd show slides in my work i think To the to the class and on this guy's business card was a coffee table design of mine. That i i never wrote about. It was in one of the fine woodworking design books back in the nineties and he headed out his business card. So you're photo. Yeah my that's the best part right there. Yeah that's great. That is copyrighted. Yeah so i wrote him a little note. And i said you need to stop doing that. I'm happy you you think you can build that piece. And that's great. 'cause it's a complex peace but You should not use it for your own home purposes. So that's the that's the line. I guess when when people start to say it's the line you know and you've seen it and it used to be far more prevalent whom sam when sam aloof was alive but you know i used to get the atlantic magazine and there was a guy who can use his name. Call this rocking chair. Which was a malouf. Rocker so-and-so so rocker his name and i thought that's taxes that's tacky and yeah. Ok sam wrote about it and you can figure out how to do it and he's given you know. He gave dozens of workshops. I was his gopher once for one of them. But you know. I think it's i think what curtis does courtesy cannon desert is far more honorable. This is not my design. Now this has been around for two hundred years. You know i'm going to tweak it a little bit and i built it and you know curtis buchanan. It's a windsor chairs. Not well you'd be interested that this whole topic came up because one curtis's oh no kidding. No kidding yeah. There's a guy. There's a company in russia that his democratic chair that he put out. I guess about a year year and a half ago for free. They're actually reproducing it. Wow at a now. I don't know what shipping is but it was like two hundred and seventy dollars. Wow and i would like to see one. The pictures looked great. I like to see one actually in person but but yeah so Found out about that. And we kind of had a heated discussion about it on the last podcast but i You know. I guess i'm this. Is you know behind the curtain. Kind of you on our podcast. It's after we had the discussion. I went well. Maybe i should reach out to curtis so i did. And he didn't have a problem with it so we kind of did some creative in in the last episode siblings. Not there but Yeah so after that and mark was saying. Hey we need to be asking these questions. For professional woodworkers to see what your take is but nick making too i force really good intentions. Not probably not you know. The cost of labor and the cost of materials are relatively inexpensive there in russia. And i don't know if you know. I don't know if this is a you know a maker or a few guys doing it or if it's a full commercial operation but you know well if they're selling for two hundred and seventy dollars. They're they're not paying their labor anything and they're getting the would for just about and it's a yeah. That's that's theft but it's also the way of the world and and you know what you hope crack curtis's curtis's you'll appreciate this kerr's big tegas. It's kinda funny that russia a country that was dominated by the communist. So many years is now producing democratic. I don't know it's Certain things. I find just great that people use of mind and but other when i started my school for some reason i got on like some radar screen and people would call me up two or three people would call me up and say hey i'm thinking about starting to school out out on the coast and So tell me he. Did it like ten ten words or less. Well you know. I i you know camden and then finally a would finish her up in seattle Called me up and said so. You started work school. Tell me how you did it. And i said michael Every path is singular and You know you have to figure this out for yourself. The school is going to bear your imprint. So good luck to you. Now is just weird. I just thought you know you don't do that in business. And and so. I making you in business than it's a very generous guy self. Yeah gonna use and very generous guy. And he's been a lot of time going to underprivileged countries. You know teach them how to make style to them. It's yeah he someone to look up to. That's for sure he's a good guy so it's still. It's a very difficult question to answer. I mean i'm i'm thrilled. That people like some of the stuff and then depends. I how you do it. You know it's not like going out on the dance floor. Yeah exactly so Worst case scenario is least. They should give you credit for this. Gary's design That's that's that's just fine. I don't really just fine. Yeah this is not my design. This is so sos design. This is my. Oh my gosh to it This is a green green style table. Yes right right. Yeah inspired by yeah. That's perfectly reasonable but to to call it your own when it's clearly someone else's is is theft now. I consider design to be reverend theft and and the differences that you recognize your antecedents you recognize the spots where you got inspiration and you take a little from there and a little from there from there and come up with something not original but that's your own and sometimes you do a great job sometimes just practicing exactly well with that Is there anything that we missed anything. That's coming for you or your school that we haven't touched on. Well there's are this Won't drop for while i presume. So we have got class on thursday so come on by i think this will drop like The saturday after christmas. That's fine we've got The online mastery program is open for applications. People can contact me as the website in request a prospectus which lays out everything about the about the program. And i'm hoping to get running sometime in january so yeah people are interested in love to chat with him about so arth. This sounds like something. That's going to be ongoing even after koga for you. Yeah i think it's way to go. Its each is a broader audience. It cut some costs for people. The big issue for me is is the critiques. And if we can if we can start to travel again next year if we have two meetings over the two years that would that would that would be great. Yeah people would have a commitment to come out and bring work but Just doing that once or twice. Once a year. I think is is not too Too big a burden so no and there's so much to learn by holding the work and looking at it you know that you know photography is great and it's just a lie a lie when i saw that tv show. I was like my goodness. Everything is fake here and it looks so look so good on television. But yeah yeah. That's all the all the actors and actresses freaked out when they went high. Def it's like oh crap right. He can sing now. Yes we need filters on those lenses. Have a master program is something. I'm going to try and keep going. Because i really love. Doenitz will family nate. As soon as i read the prospectus in this great. I know i have. I have a seven year old kid. And i have a wife who can't get work and My own business. And i do woodworking every day but not like this not this type of creative work and to just stop my life and go do something like that is impossible but to be able to you know. Spread it out over two years work mild pace in my own shop. I i think it's brilliant. I'm i'm sure it will do very well going forward. I hope so i. I didn't answer this question earlier. But i think it takes a commitment of ten to twenty hours a week. Yeah that's reasonable. Ya as possible to do that in just a question of how you do that i had one distance student who traveled all over the world and didn't do any work for two or three months and then when we come back and in just two weeks of what's been nonstop stike or yeah it was crazy so everyone's got a different way of doing that. But i as i tell everyone i become your metronome. So where's the work if you don't deliver there's nothing negative but you know. I hope that people accept the the challenge of delivering to work on time. And that's part of what's missing. I think from a lot of programs. Is that sense of responsibility in trying to get the work done in pushing through hard to do. Sometimes god knows these projects. She's lineup on your benching. Like dang didn't finish this. When did i start here. I know mount thing is working on a couple of different projects in damages. Adirondack chairs taken over mind tar shop. It's like weird. How like that can just get out aalyah under you and you're like wait. Wait a minute. I i need room to do this over here. I don't living room to do it. Yeah parts were net next year sitting around two years. Now you're sitting there anyway anyway. So yeah. I made me me more proud of this adirondack chair than this rocker. Been working on forever so anyway with that sad. Let's move onto a report. Nightly beer choices so I'll start off often. I had a rude awakening today. That i was out of christmas ale now i can sworn i had some it but anyway so in its place drinking some badeah box Cabernet which isn't half bad. It's the echelon of your boxed wines box hap- shelf top shelf number. Fifty on wine spectators most recommended list. So hey oh. I feel good. Yeah actually it's not bad. It's you know it works. You know it's not something. I don't think matt cremona would be drinking but all his whole line of the month club. Data that so Sean what are you drinking. So i've got the cosco. Is this time of year. We the advent calendar of beer that they sell Usually in october early november and so tonight is an they're all. They're all bavarian region german. All other so tonight's is a a perlman's over german pale ale very very nice. And it's it's funny to see like they're all of them are a lot of very similar. There's different aspects but a lot of them have that that Sixteen sixty four purity law that they all follow over there and so you can only do so much with grain hops and barley. And it's it's very interesting. Well this is you know mild halio. I have no idea. It's availibility ability outside of a twenty four. Pack that you costco in holiday times but available as long as you go to costco here hereby well. They sell out like crazy but other. I don't know if i could go to the beer store and see this particular thing. Yeah probably not. Yeah funny enough. And i've i've seen a lot of their imported through texas. So you might have kyle. Yeah we have quite the german population here in texas so yeah it could very well could be. We have a lot of german beers available here. That's for sure the you buy a box with twenty four beers that all taste the same have different labels. They don't seem nearly there's differences la- last night's was was multi. And then this this one it doesn't this looking pale ale ratios change. But yeah yeah. It's the novelty of an adult edmund. County really they just happens to have fear. It and say lego's lego lego. I did lego and be your last year so i drank beer while assemble the small. Lego model I i. I have a friend of mine that said this year. He got a version at all. The that was twenty four bottles of beer for himself. He got his mom the seltzer version of that. He got his sister a coffee version of that. So apparently this is all the rage. All ya'll de makes sense because they are a germany company. They are nervous. They're owned by the same people. As i key or something like that right like there's there i've Will trader joe's trader. Joe's all the are linked. Well no no. No the the the all there's to all these l. I saw this one time while you to thing. So i'm sure it's or it out so there there were two brothers. They started a grocery store in germany. And then they got into a fight in the kind of broke up and so there was like the aldy north. I'm not sure this is correct that there were two all these like all north and the south now could been on the east all west. I'm not sure. But one of the aldis owns I think they costco and the other all the owns Trader joe's the other way round debater hippies and all the owned by a company called albrecht discounts. Right is a chain that was started in nineteen forty eight right so i don't know i don't know like if there anyway. We don't need to get into semantic argument of who. But i i think the oldie grocery stores are different from trader. Joe's all the connection. Yeah i wonder they all by me has some pretty high end style When i grew up was like government. Yeah yeah right. Same wake me. Yes totally different. So who the the albrecht's are who own it. Who is a german. Ultra entrepreneur. Yes okay well anyway so hopefully getting promoted era. I am drinking a sierra nevada. Hazy little thing. I be a good one all right. Yeah that's fantastic listeners. If you know the oldie Rubik's cube please yes or no so Garrett what are you drinking. I'm drinking a very clear beverage from absolute and multi. And now exa moves bob guy straight clear. Yeah i. i'm not drinking beer. Yeah yeah i understand that understand. That is absolute your go-to absolute. Actually i like vodka call rageh which is from iceland. Uh-huh that's actually a very good very good all right Yeah he does is good you. You spend money on grey goose. And i don't know i don't think it's now I don't know if you can get this in your area. Should be over the ukraine vodka. Call shustov it. Comes in kind of a Oblong bottle kind of kind of elliptical type bottle and Yeah you see that to get a couple of different varieties. But that's that's the go to my house but again schuss shouf stop schuss. yeah Yeah there's only one liquor store we can get it here but you'll notice notice it that it has this bottle that's kind of elliptical football shaped yeah from side to side so but Yeah it's it's it's really good but yeah. Yeah that's earlier. But it's a ukrainian. Well since we're talking great records. I found a scotch actually was a gift from the student Buono heaven it's an. It's an ira and It's it it doesn't kick in the stomach like a loaf. Roy which i love your the freud but the buna hobby is Pity but not overpowering. It's really good hard to find and they're trying to find a bottle for my neighbor. Can't the liquor store has run out. you can't get him so buna interesting. Y'all can y'all get a liquor shipped into your to oregon. Oh yeah i mean look i. I figured you could. I mean nothing. Else's legal there so are all right. I'm i'm getting ready for this. Finishing lecture and and i want i'm gonna talk about Varnishes and i thought what are the naturally occurring residents. Because i i want to say that. Saran is a naturally occurring resin. So i go. And i look up naturally occurring resins frankencense. Mur you know the three wise men oser naturally occurring resins culpable sand dr amber of course on pine trees and hashish. And i said well. Of course it's a resin from the cannabis. Do not just for anymore. Something it wouldn't exactly be your nontoxic finish but it'd be a good finish though but it would be a good finish yes exactly. What would that. Gary so working folks find you. Well they can find me at our website. Northwest woodworking dot com all spelled out. Okay here's a link to splinters. But you can find splinters on all major podcast providers and more suppose. Someone wanted to reach out to you work. They find you. I'm at played. Eleven dot com and on instagram at mark builds. It tastic sean. I'm shawn w. seventy eight on most everything. You can always find me. At barton dot colin instagram. The only social media platform that matters and with that that just about wraps it up for this show. So if you haven't already please subscribe to the show on the pod catcher your choice. Just search for the modern woodworkers association. And while you're there please leave the review. Thanks for listening. Even follow us on instagram at the view a underscore podcast the best thing you can do tell a friend word of mouth goes a long way sharing discussion.

modern woodworkers association gary rogowski chris megan northwest woodworking lavar lavallee Crumley valley Chris Wars peter galbraith Mark hicks lebanon youtube charles Selling
MWA293 - Chair Chat with Rudy & Klaus

Modern Woodworkers Association

1:45:45 hr | 1 year ago

MWA293 - Chair Chat with Rudy & Klaus

"Welcome to the modern woodworkers association. A podcast about woodworking from folk. Who would work? Woodworking is what we do who we are and what we like to talk about so join us as we have a drink sit around and talk woodworking and welcome to the two hundred ninety third episode of the Modern Woodworkers Association podcast on Barton of K Barton tools. I'm here with my co host. Johnny plot key of the ultimate woodshop and Sean was new ski of the Corner Workshop. Today were visiting with a couple of fantastic chair. Makers clause strut lend in Rudy Everett's Aka the chair chat guys so welcome to the show guys. Thank you and thank thanks. Kyle hopefully didn't butcher of your last name's Donna Dole Man. Okay yeah it sounded just like I would have said it myself need to Any to make sure I'd snip that out of their courting and keep that forever. I'm very bad with towns So but anyway like I said. Welcome to the show and we'll talk a little bit about the church chat here in a minute before we do that. Why don't we See what's happening around the woodworking community thinks of piqued her interest so to speak so First off I think Clawson Rudy you'll appreciate Presses workbench tours our know if y'all been catching any of that but A Kris Wirtz Has Been doing a tour of each of the workbenches. He has in His shop in a store front there and Covington and I think he has eleven benches and he's about halfway through but He's done a short little video tour of each of the workbenches and It's pretty interesting. You know Some that he built you know really before he got into the workbench craze and some that he he's built since then but if you're into workbenches like I think all of us are Head on over there too Lost our presses blog and I think he's like up to number six or seven at this point but yeah they're they're and the videos were real short there about four to five minutes so very interesting. Yeah I've been getting the right up just in email and spend a nice little Morning routine when they come out you know still will. I've got coffee in my hand to just kind of read through his his retelling of of the all those benches and some of that I've been able to see you know in previous shows that are gone to and stuff but it's pretty cool. Yeah when I went there for class I was on his. I guess a workbench you built for his father. That was the out feed table Combo. Workbench thing with the Lee Valley twin screw vice and he goes. Yeah that's why it's really never has worked right. I remember trying to use that thing. Chris would have to come over and help me. 'cause you gotTa hold your tongue just right to getting oh but anyway but Yeah next up. I wanted to highlight something. That's been great. And that is a Peter Galbraith. New Milk paint instructional video. He has out he. He's he's doing two parts in it and he's released the first part which I've seen in it's I believe he's charging thirty. Nine ninety nine forty bucks for but it is very very good very instructional. He goes into a lot about how to mix the paint The technique is using The first video. He's doing the traditional black over red but You know I've been using milk paint for a few years now and I learned a lot and and watch handsome kyle. Have you been unhappy with your results or it's just going to be easier now or from having done it for a couple of years what do you how do you move on to the next level. One of the biggest things is mixing the milk paint and He goes into a lot of detail here on mixing the black over red and he goes into. I think the next video. He's going to go into even more detail about mixing other colors because apparently he's using real milk paint company bank. That's the name of the company real milk paint And that's what I use too. So it's kind of like a one on one some. There's some other videos that are out. There on. Painting are good but they tend to use old fashioned melt paint. Which is you know. Different company on a little bit different mixture so bad and then he goes into a lot of techniques on using that milk paint like to buffet and You know after it dries in all the techniques uses in what materials of specific Abrasive pads and things that he uses above the paint. And you know he states in there. Hey the real milk. Paint companies paint does not buff out his is high as sheen as the old fashioned milk paint. So you know when you're kind of looking at Somebody using a different type of pain in your using something else. You know it Kinda done translate when you really start getting into rubbing out the finish. So that's what really appreciated about this one and you know. He's modified his techniques Over the year so it's good to see what he's using right now. So it's Kyle have have you asked Chris Williams sweaty If the the videos no no I haven't asked him about that yet. I don't think he's using. I don't think Chris Milk on his dairy asked us to have an opinion on no faint. I assume so but yeah yeah what do you say? I don't want to out someone but I spoke to Chris. Davis about this senator. He He didn't really like milk and I have to admit I've never used. It never had here. I don't know. Is it just an American traditional thing or you know why? Why is there mystique about it? That is that's an GAL or Yeah Governor to to make. I think Windsor chairs were have always been traditionally painted so it. Kinda comes from that but I think the paint that US back in the day was lead based paints with okay. You really can't use now and I think you know through the years. They've tried to find some alternatives. And I think the milk paint Just came to be as far as putting it on a chair now. One thing about milk pain is once it dries. It dries extremely hard. It's like Shell on there okay. So that's really good for chairs and then when you you know the milk paint looks chalking when you first apply you think boy. I just screwed up my chair But but after you put oil on it you know a barnish blend it really pops and it's really pretty nice. You know I think you know. Get back to Chris Williams. I think he was using some sort of stain. I know when I met him. He was experimenting with the with a bunch of different types stains and he didn't really want to go into much detail till he you know perfected it and I don't think he's he's ever you know comment on exactly what he uses. But you know maybe you will in his next book hopefully. Hopefully the traditional color is what black right it's or read. I guess for Winter Diaz Black over red So you put the red on and then put the black over it and it in a really Helps highlight gives the gives a paint some some debt. I think traditionally When Windsor chairs were I made They were painted green or not as used as outdoor chairs. I remember it. Yeah go ahead. I think in Europe. A Lotta furniture's traditionally painted but nowadays. I think a lot of people prefer to natural finish of light would kind of get a lot of Europeans? Really just prefer that natural wood furniture wounded but nowadays. I think this is the style. It's definitely it's definitely did that. It's definitely a style thing and a lot of people. Call it the Scandinavian style. Like these six monthly not sure would than just like everything is liked him area and natural. Yeah I think You know from the windsors perspective I think I should have mentioned this earlier. Is there another reason? There are always painted because they're using such different types of wood. Because you got you know may buller oke legs and spindles and you know arm bows or Bows and or continuous arms. And you got a pine seat so you know if you were to finish a natural kind of strange so I think that's one reason but you know the you know. There are auto more contemporary Windsor. Made out of you know walnut and butternut and things like that so I in fact I have one that What is it? It's Kerr's Buchanan's belda chair that I built a few years ago. When it's all natural and getting back to Chris Williams again. He said that took him. I think you said twenty years to gain the confidence to paint the chair the first time. So yeah and that's kind of a relatable. I haven't making twenty years but I really want to try it someday but I really have to. Yeah gain confidence to do it. It's it's hard for me to paint over that beautiful woods. Yeah you see. That's the thing I used some really crappy would from the first year down and you start what you did the black over red did you rudy yet. But I didn't use milk. Pay Does use some acrylic paint. That I have lying around out. The red layer come through yet or yet it has come through. Yes you need to run that balance between the species of wood and the quality of wood. You're making it out of and then how easily you can cover up the hard work you put together to to make it all and you know inconsistent and then with consistency of a different type. Years ago I used acrylic paint on a little Couch settee thing I built in it was I did the Black over red acrylic too and it looks godawful it. So that's good that's good and you're all good all good. Well if you do decide to paint. Annie's milk paint I would highly recommend Checking out a pizza video. It's really good. Oh I'm really interested to see the second part I think the the The second video is GonNa sometime early as going to release that but if you pay your forty bucks you get both parties so but anyway so once that drops update you again on what I think about part two but moving on Wanted to highlight some new products that I noticed Lee Valley came out with One of my. I don't know if it's new. It's New Delhi belly as they have some Japanese marking knives and I thought that was pretty cool. I've always been intrigued by Japanese market nights. They don't have a handle. There's kind of a shaft of of laminated steel. It's been sharpened into either a I guess a spear point or just angled point but They both of them. They're relatively inexpensive as twenty one bucks for this pierpoint one and I just thought it was interesting to highlight That The other thing that they have the thought was interesting. I just saw this. Yesterday is They've gone back to their Cnc machine again and they built a router sled hard work yet. So if you're someone that's into slabs and flattening slabs and you need one of those router sleds flat slab there. They have this Router sled hard work it. And it's pretty neat. I mean if I was doing that I would definitely probably by. It's only seventy bucks. A looks fairly complete in gives you a A fairly good Fixture there to flatness labs. I'm looking at it right now. It seems that you you'd need a couple of pipes. Yep Yeah to to run it along. Yeah but it looks like you could buy those pipes in any damage he did. So you could go from a small slab too large lab to whatever but looks pretty neat Yummy you thinking about. Getting one of those for the entertainment center has muted myself. I'm sorry I think this is a brilliant plan I would. I will not use this only entertainment center but that being said I think it's tenth the cost of the woodpeckers aimed. Okay the woodpeckers one is all these machine rails and all sorts of stuff and I'm sure it's absolutely gorgeous but there's no way I'm spending a grand on a flattening jake whereas this you know by the time I get the pipe one hundred fifty bucks all in this is this is really neat. I like a lot. I don't meet for it but it's really cool. That pipe looks like Like fence hardware. Like yeah I think it's some sort of Let's see. What is the goal metallic tubing yet? It's interesting half conduit. Okay so you just going to get out of the home center and got it. It's not terribly expensive. That's really neat. I liked it a little table. They made to house it. That's a yeah I think I think it's Pretty. It's pretty cool idea and What power to I think I'll mention is now but I was going to bring it up later but I did place an order with Lee Valley. I got there Oh what do they call it? Their Veritas hand joined her in. It's a the thing the holds your shoulder plane one yeah the CNC one and pick that up and that WAS PRETTY PRETTY NEAT. Works really well. How is the I would expect it to be very good? But how is the quality of the machine and the fit and everything like that Very good very good You know impact it has It has options for you to Mounter joyner playing where On the right side or the left side by switching a couple of bolts And it's really solid. It's yeah it's like it's like shooting board or yeah I don't know if you're on the show notes but yeah if you'd follow that link there to it Looking at it upside down right so that you're asking the peace over. Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah I could see it now. Okay okay. Yeah Yeah Yeah works really well. Yeah Yeah I got it Got It a couple of days ago. You know. The box had to stay in my quarantine area for twenty four hours. You know put it up. Played with a little bit yesterday in a like manner this is. This is brilliant. Really nicely done excellent but anyway so anyway so checkout Lee Valley for For those products and. I think they have some other stuff out there on the Japanese front a couple of SAWS and whatnot. They've introduced like I said our no opinion they're Japanese stuff is quote unquote new but it is noodling valley so check that out. Hersher but without let's move on to what's in the shop. So Sean working on so that was going through my my little shop cleanup. I did in the last couple of weeks. I don't know why I it's kind of funny because I was just perusing social media and watching a couple guys and I noticed things in the background of their little shop videos and and I said I noticed tape storage. I don't know why but it caught my eye and my tape. I've got rolls and rolls of different tapes from from drywall repair to electrical tape to a bunch of masking tapes. And they've always just stood on each other on the top shelf with his shelving unit and Just catching a glimpse of that in in the back of a couple of guys videos. I said you know I could make something like that. I wonder where the Hell I could put it. And I'm here to say I was way too old before I realized that. The extra shelve holes of those metal shelving units where you've adjustable sheldon. Basically rose keyholes just put a screw in the back of a word and hang something. They're never thought of it before but I'm happy to save now. I have a small shelf that I just cut a scrap wood That now holds my tape in a line of them standing up that I have easy access to all in that. I don't have to on stack them when I get them. A such stupid simple. It took me fifteen minutes to do. I gloated about being able to cut a true square line on plywood as well. I should read and But then that got me into thinking other stuff but That was my my my little accomplishment and otherwise with all this time at home and thinking about things working from home. I've started design on an outdoor shed which is not gonNA be thing. I'm thinking just eight by twelve those demolish. You're welcome to try it out of mine. Kicks out and then go builders. I'm I'm thinking a single pitch roof With just about a foot overhang on the front and back a side entry sliding door to drive up a riding mower and run facing on the long edge. Mandir to walk into well. That should be nice. A you'll be deep enough to to shingle. Yeah Yeah It'll be like a A three and a half four pitch okay. I mean it's enough to and I'll I'll do an with ice garden in shingles so there's no ice guard you're not gonNA heat it true. Durham not you're right. Just a simple thing and that but I did nothing. I pulled in like three d models of a riding mower and stuff to know that that's enough space for me to clear it out like a third of my garage and get it out in outdoor shed where it would be much better served So Nice yeah done. Yeah it helps to have well. It helps to be Thirteen years plus a three d designer now turned into it guy. So I do a mental around in these things in my spare time working from home. Yes exactly it's amazing. You know how how much it's not free time but it's it's extra time for you to me. I know you're on the office today. But are you your commute taken out of your day to day if you're working from home has two enormous? I'm not working home. Are you still going? Oh Yeah I'm still going to every day at home. I have three kids at home. Well I'm going through that struggle of my kids being. I let see the kids have been out of school now. Her month I think we're approaching a month And it was yesterday that my son got the idea to cut open a can of Arizona. Ice Tea and try to flatten that. Can that piece of Tin that? He he cut to try to make some replacement thing for did he did he open and drain the CAN I. It had been drunk. It was empty. Net He's fine. He's fine but it's just like we're we're beyond. Hey do you wanna go play Frisbee to for sixteen almost seventeen year old? We're devolving in activities. At this point they need more productive things to do. But we'll we'll see we'll good news. I heard that they the most colleges are gonNA stop requiring. Sat's or act's. Oh my God New York State doesn't mean anything to anybody but maybe New York state cancelled the region to this year which are statewide tests that every high school student make them. Yeah Yeah Yeah. It's at this point The in my son's high school the Fourth Grade Quarter. How is it the fourth grade? Quarter will be graded as a pass fail and passing the fourth quarter will mean that you also passed third quarter even if you failed the third quarter semester grade will be pass Yeah which in Clawson rougier sitting there going. What are old enough to have teenage children? That are your school child. Old enough to be retired but no kit That's right so well I I've got three kids. There are three five and seven all Megan and since I work at the hospital mice free time. My shop time is usually in the daytime when everyone said working in school token will now home schooling now and get nothing done so I understand. Feel sorry for myself. We're all feeling sorry for herself at the same time. Yeah but I'm drinking. I'm drinking beer now. So that's good there you go. So what's your Shop Kyle? Oh let's see what about done recently. You know with all this Kobe Quarantine stuff actually. It's been Kinda hard to get motivated. But I have gotten motivated this past week. I did release New Tip out on Instagram News. Short video been redoing the videos on my boring Jagan I saved one little Section. From one of my previous videos and that's About why I prefer to drill my leg. Mortices from the underside of the seats Put that up there. So there's little tip you know there's that yeah that's Yeah. There's different opinions on that but that's just my sense. I think you're staying pretty busy with Kyle. Could I offer a suggestion? Call it an exciting jake. Not a boring chick. I do have a new JIG that I've been working on. I don't think it's anything I'm going to sell. But it's probably something I'm GonNa Post up and I have to give big big shoutout to Julio Vargas he's known as way to dusty on. Instagram. And he I was Doing this but and I looked at what he was doing. copied it basically or stolen. Whatever the case may be and I'll post about it soon but I've been doing a proof of concept but it's basically bringing a pattern routing to the late in primarily to make taper tenants like a USA. Six degree tenants included three degrees on each side. If there is a side on a cone twenty talking about but but It's it's kind of interesting There's this basic goes between the ways on the on the lathe and you put your quote unquote pattern so in this case. I got a little piece of wood as a three degree. Angle cut on it bearing guided router bit. Basically I have this Tower structure that holds lathe tool and I'm using One of those carbide easy would tools. But it's locked in position and the bottom of this base that Holes tool rides against that pattern on the lathe and you can just make a A ten a taper ten and just really lick the. Split. It's it's pretty darn amazing. Now in the past I've used I've attended cutter that I use so I'll get the ten in roughly shaped and then take it off the laid than US ten cutter to cut it and it works really well but it does take some time on. You have to be aware of terror out. So I use frank. Straws technique of the fifty percent denatured alcohol and fifty percent water spray that on the ten and then use my tendon cutter. And what did you say you? Whoa set the technique. Okay Frank Stras of saying that ride has this technique to eliminate terror out and basically taken a mix of Fifty percent denatured alcohol fifty percent water so half-and-half spray that on the would you know whether you're planning or doing anything and that will eliminate tear out I think yeah. Yeah so do you. But it eliminates Sarah out until you actually put a blade to the woods or you know know you wet it down and then put your blade to the wood and Laura helps resist her out. I mean the alcohol is just going to start flashing off immediately so it doesn't last for long right. Yeah and I think that's one of the reasons you mix it with. Water is just to keep it You know so it doesn't flash off too soon right Drinking does not on drinking up dealing with your alcohol denatured alcohol. You could use like I don't know if they have that in Europe but like ever clear something that has a super high drinking alcohol. I don't know I'm they. I made some SHELLAC with a nothing came out of prefer that too but I don't know I actually have the medical grade denatured. That's yeah you're going to have a license for that stuff you got to. I got an on Amazon really. I bought it years and years and years and years ago we were talking to somebody about French polishing and that's what he recommended so I bought a case of it. I wouldn't what were you doing? Any of this stuff even ever cleared well. That's the other hearing Buffalo. Anyway Peru ever clear used to be something that was drunk in college next to Confidence and stuff. Yeah it's like ninety nine hundred proof right. Yeah it's as close well close enough to be in pure pure alcoholic Bernie blue and And you would You'd mix you that with a gallon. Lemonade and orange slices and make eligible and heavily alcoholic. Definitely ain't silence away. Okay all right yeah. I'm sure you have something similar at least some parts of Norway or Moonshine really really. Yeah actually in some parts of Norway making your own. Moonshine is considered like just kind of a cultural thing to do. Is the only writing to be a real region to make your own your own brand of liquor. Yes yes yes well anyway but So using that technique is really creepy for eliminating Tara. Not Big idea is pretty good luck. I said Shana Julio he came up with this idea and he was trying to use it to do an entire leg and it worked all right but I think he thought it was not worth it. But but I mean just for doing like You know little tin in. That's two and a quarter inches long. I mean it just boom boom. You're done and the great thing about it is. You're doing it on the lake. So that ten and it's perfectly centered because even when using a attendant cutter you know you take it off the lathe and you put it in the tenant cutter you can get really close. But you're still off a little bit from Dead Center. That tenant dead center and if you do it on the late It is always going to be dead center and It's pretty neat but you know I'll You know I just built a kind of proof of concept and We'll post a little bit about it probably next week. Maybe video the cool thing about those. I mean the car by turning tools. How easy they are to use the. There's no there's no not much nuance to how would But it is that you know if you have a tendency to just do a perpendicular scraping action with a very sharp laid which tends to tear rather than cut interesting little mix of I mean. I've I've turned things. Just straight spindles. With the carbide tunes and it's a little rough hopefully gouge too much and you can send away the imperfections and call it good as long as you leave a little proud but you can also apply such pressure with them that you can barely kiss that that surface for the you're finishing little little. He'll say this about setting that up. It is relatively finicky to set up so once. This thing is locked in. You have it is it. Took me like I don't know to practice tenants to really get it? Nailed Down You pretty much dedicated that tool to that. I mean you know so I've looked at Okay can I buy? Just the handle are just the the square piece of raw that holds a carbide cutter and yeah there some If your mom from easy tools you might as well just by the tool z much less expensive but I did find some in the probably You know Chinese knock off or something but they were like forty bucks for one of those which wasn't too bad so if I want to dedicate. Tha You got the tooling. I just saw a guy make a a reamer using carbide cutter with just a piece of Rod that he he just ground a flat. Edge onto McCall has a years old youtube video on how to make them entirely with like pipe and stuff and he buys the carbide cutter. Yeah the only thing with pipe is Really need a square square piece of metal by square-style. Yeah Yeah I'll probably always drill. Cross pins through the pipe or could just pay forty bucks and be done looking. I'm looking at At Julio's post right now and if I could offer a suggestion I don't know what you did on yours. But the the bottom of the piece that the The Cutter Rides that the sled cutter relief in it. So desperate. Pack up okay. That's that's you know. That's that's a good idea but that's not what I'm talking about. Okay The front of his where where it contacts. The template is flat. The template has a curve. So you should only have contact pointed either end. Yeah the yeah exactly but what I'm doing is completely flat. You know he was trying to do an entire Leg with it so the sections. I'm doing just a straight three degree Taper so with being flagged as actually good it. Just boom shoot. Yeah that's not. That's not a problem. Yeah if you're trying to do something that you know had like a cigar shape to it or even more elaborate. Yeah you would run into some issues there. you're you're you're taking just the easy. It's your template is legitimate. Just triangular piece. Yeah right yeah and You know and like I said I think pretty now. If you're you know this is for people that you know This ideas for people are either new to it or you know of had some issues with it. But if you've got a technique that you've used for years and years and years isn't gonNA replace that you're probably quicker and faster with what we're using now but you know with me doing the You know just what I use with the ten cutter. I think this is going to be a lot more accurate and faster than what I have been using but do you have to remain the mill. The bottom of the ten gig stretcher plugging piece to that angle right right okay. So that brings a whole two six six. Could you take a long a long pole on the lathe and cut the angle in multiple times kind of like a Christmas tree pattern and then just cut up into multiples? Since they're only short little pieces of threaded. Rod Fits into two that make any? Oh any Diagram Dami Im. Yes yes you could do that if it was if was just producing my jigs but I'm more interested in this thing not only producing my jokes. But to Bruce in legs and stuff for chairs so but yeah you could. You could see what you're saying you could do that. I'm not sure if anybody else followed like Christmas Christmas. What's he call? What you're saying you go one long piece of wood and you out of that. There's multiple taper multiple TABOR's. Yeah Yeah Yeah you could. You could absolutely do that but while to and the other thing you might be able to use this drug for that. I need to experiment with is actually making You know just tenants for Your stretches and stuff which is just a cylindrical tenant. Most people Either have attended cutter for that or use. What's known as a BA- and To do that and Those are all excellent techniques. But you might be able to do this but I think of use of the Dan. That's probably the fastest way to it. You know I'm not play around with that too but anyway you know and the only other thing. I'll be real quick on this is I did buy the bridge. City tool works. Mini Block plane in. There are many modern square. They had a good deal on it and they're many blood plan. I think is the one that sold with the chopstick kid but has these two outriggers That you can actually use these outriggers to raise the plane up so you can play into exact depth. I think that's used in their chopstick Jig. And I really had a use for that. And so I thought Let me by the plane and and and see how. We're quite reasonable. Yeah Yeah it's quite reasonable and Once I got it I found out once quite reasonable. It's IT works fine. It works fine but it's just you know I it's just not the fit and finish at now. It's not what it used to be. I'll put it that way doing their stuff. Now I think Harvey Tools. Yeah the This has got John Signature on it. I know I know and end. And maybe it's because it comes from the chopstick maker and they've cut some corners to make that more reasonable because I know when they first came out with it it was like you know. I don't know three hundred bucks or more and I think now it's like one hundred Two I don't know what it is anyway but So maybe that's why but yeah you know. If I didn't have a use case Ford I would probably have Senate back but I have. I haven't looked for the same price you can get That like the Little League Nielsen or the Bertos Apron plane and Our next plans. Nice nice as it comparable size if that small. Yeah Yeah Okay. That's mall maybe even a little smaller. But it's you know it's milled out a solid aluminum which should have thought about but anyway but like I said I have a particular use case scenario for it Because I need a plane some really small thin pieces of wood at a consistent thickness so I have a use case for it. But if I didn't have the use case for a probably wouldn't I wouldn't recommend and there are many minor squares buying on but you know I have a particular fetish war layup tool the first step is admitting yes. Exactly you know it's like. Oh isn't that night as a forty five degree triangle thing but it has his little magnetic base so you can use it against the side of a piece of wood and it's really nice and I'll put it in with the rest of my layout tools and go k. I have five little triangle do hickeys but hey it was fifteen bucks. What the hell there you go going on. Yeah well I've actually been shop. I've come to find that the best way to knock down the little well. Let me backtrack so working on the same center. The last I ended the top finish. I ended the top of the top piece back down to bare wood and then I went in and I put a nice coat of thick and the poxy over the whole thing and I did that though and what I found was that even then I had lots of little voids and holidays and packets in the top surface and because it is the top surface. It's going to be about waist high when it's all done. I want that one. Top surface to be absolutely immaculate. I'm not going crazy on all the other surfaces but I want that one to be less smooth so Rather than just cover the whole thing in a poxy what I did was I mixed up. My purple died poxy. I didn't actually put thickener in it. And I use a toothpick and just kind of dip a toothpick and the poxy and dip the toothpick in the little void or crevice and dropped a little poxy there and went through. So it's like little dots of a poxy all over the top and they dry way proud of the top. Maybe an eighth of an inch proud of the top To imagine a drip drying so at this point. I don't want to take a Sandra to these little ones. Because off mess up the adjoining surface and doubted or whatever so I was using. I thought of Matt Berger Skateboarding Book. And he's got a tip in there for smoothing out the little in lazy dozen the skateboard decks with using just a regular straight razor as a card scraper so I tried that and that worked really well but the poxy is so damn hard and the the razor so small it was just. It was a pain in the butt to do so. Then I just. I took out my Leeson Card scraper and I went wet. And it works wonderfully it takes me roughly a minute per prot to scrape it down and get a completely flat but so far. I've done that to half the bench. Which is roughly a third of the of the drips of poxy because there were much more on one side and the other side And I think there's two of let's say sixty that I need to now put more papillon but every other time I was coating it I would come back and have just stuff all over the bench that needed to be re coded so this seems to be the most effective at actually filling the different holes. And it's leaving a surface that I like end because I've been playing with the card scraper now. I never would have thought to surface this with the card scraper but I think I think what I'm done knocking all the poxy off. I'm going to scrape the entire surface and then decide what my standing regimen is from there. Because I have I have lots of fish tails and gouges in the services. The Tim restraint is fairly soft. And I've been so aggressive in my standing to get all the poxy off it's left. Its impression on that surface so I think I'm going to scrape it and I should be able to get most or all of that off which then I may be able to just get by with a very light sanding on top and I wouldn't have to go with the belt. Sander to get rid of the tracks and all the other stuff so I'm optimistic that that's the that's the way out. And that's that's been going so far. I probably have about two more hours of scraping to get all your poxy off the top But because there was making progress on that I decided to put it aside started. Different Project Not Start but return started project but this this is the five year ongoing. I've had these two blocks of wood. They're they're maple purple heart at Walnut. Not because they particularly look good together just because that's what I had these. They're each like eight. Quarter blocks glued together so the the biggest small scraps I had in my shop and I glued these two pieces together. I think Kyle's exaggerating probably four years ago but I I was rounding up exactly and I shaped them. Years ago I rough cut for. I did one mostly. I got one mostly finished before. She got it rough cut in the band saw. And then I took my power carver to it and just kind of went to town and that I played with rasps. And what they really were was just like meditation. And just playing with my shaping tools to have fun with it and they kind of evolved into being headphone racks and I was. I thought I was going to combine the two of them on a base and I decided that wasn't the case that I wasn't sure how we're going to do them. But then I realized about a week and a half ago that I'm now using headphones at work every day for the video conferencing we have so rather than give them both away. Which was my original plan. I'm going to keep one so the one that is the one that was finished except for figuring out how to hang it. Where's the other? One is only like eighty percent shape and still needs to be standard. And lots of finish it so with those close to done. I had to figure out how to hang it so what I did. Was I wrapped it in cardboard and I threw it in my pattern makers vice which is so much fun to you And I lacked that up and it looks like it's a. It's a very organic form. That's about four inches by six inches like a rectangle that's going to fit on the wall and that's a little rounded and then from there it kind of I'm really going to put your description of this. But it just kind of evolves into these two like ten is that stick out and it's all power carved in very smooth inorganic looking But that that flat sections the only five piece sexual whole thing. That's going to go against the wall. I had to figure out how to hang that so it sat tight against the wall. And there's not much there to to recess out to make a hangar or anything so I had these like Phil slip-ups. It's almost like a variation on a French clete but then metal from Lavallee. That were my picture hanging toolbox so I took them out at. I figured out the recess I needed to make on the back of it to accommodate one of them so I locked it up in the In the pegs vice. I just used that flat back surface. Which in the ballpark of four inches by six inches? I'm not exactly sure how big it is and I was able to use my my little Dewalt Trim router I've an eighth inch spiral up. Cut Bit in that thing which is just a joy to us and just freehand. It's so nice to to route out and I wrote it out the recess to fit this thing and then I took the Chisel and cleaned up the squared off a little bit and then last night I actually picked up the hardware. I need to screw these things in and I think I'm GonNa be ready to mountain in the wall so this morning before I came into work. I put the first coat of SHELLAC on it so I'm just GONNA PUT SHELLAC on it. That's the only finished putting on in this probably by the time I'm done. It'll probably get somewhere in the ballpark attended. Twelve coats of pound SHELLAC for for so so so next next year. My Okay I have a I have networking meeting on Tuesday and my goal is to have it hung next to my desk so that. I can hang my headphones up for that meeting. I'm not sure that's going to work. It really GONNA come down to tomorrow being Sunday. How many times can I get in there to put the SHELLAC on I it takes me? Maybe it's ten minutes to the lack on an eight of those ten minutes. Are Pouring it and mixing it and filtering it and cutting the rag and all that stuff And I can do the SHELLAC at least every hour. Maybe every forty five minutes. If I really really was pushing it I might be able to get close to a half hour so I can easily do it in the course of a day but I have no idea what I'm doing tomorrow so I don't know if I'm going to be able to sneak into the shop for fifteen minutes every hour to do this. So that's really. The question is the intent to have it visible during these calls. No no you won't be able to say that all it's GonNa be on the wall behind the camera. It's maybe six coats instead of twelve. I can see it Sean. French policy right. I'M NOT GONNA French policy. I'm just you know it's organic all the rubbing in the no it's French Polish sway towards like where it is not a poxy resin infused. I'm not French coating curious how she got to stick to try it. That's right okay. I wish we could open up a betting pool on this but anyway who who had June of Twenty Twenty Anyway. Well with that Rudy so what are you working on your working on the chair? Curry Miniature full-sized year again. Yeah again I on my bench. She's actually a small tiny chair and a big one so working on two of them at the same time The Big One is going to be a Sort of Welsh inspired. Stick Chair type with them. Six long sticks and Yeah you know what they look like and the tiny one is basically the smallest one. I've done so far. Which will be. I think about an inch. I Oh my God oh my Gosh yes so. These are made of separate peace right. You're not just carving this out of one long one at its it's won't be basically to the base of the sculpture is What the top us to look like so just to cherish carved out a one piece of wood. It's integral to the base. It's not placed on the. Yeah exactly. Yeah Wow. That is amazing. It makes it harder to do like that but I think it is something so Yeah Yeah and you ask way too little for those tiny chairs to any. I need to pick one up on. The price is good prices after tonight. Bright accent exactly. So so you said you're you're building with the six Long sticks right most of them are are done with odd number. So that's kind of unusual isn't it? I think I don't know out of all members usually even wait wait. I'm never mind mixing like chairs. Up Win are always odd. Yeah stickers are always even never mind sorry not just that when you have that center center spin down it can be Your spine can be Touching place it the wrong way. But I think that's uneven or even it doesn't really matter saying that makes me WanNa make an even sticked or odd sticked. Welsh settled here. Why not you could damage tradition. I fixed up my tradition edit data once said we're in between even on even if she kept its will that's cool that's cool. Yeah so what are you working on? Yeah what am I working on? My shop is a total mess because I'm trying to figure out this new Bending Forum Oh yeah because I don't know if you've seen it but I've started to incorporate bence to my chairs. The arm sell Veasley And I'm trying to. I mean up until now it's it's been kind of a an pretty easy band is just the arm Bend around you know. Yeah but now. I'm trying to look. I kind of always want to try something new. And it's not always good ideas but I have to try them out and I was inspired by just a normal American. Windsor was the coal continues arm. We have this. We have a abandon. Two planes You kind of the black balloon and then you have a kind of a and it kinda breaks into the arms right and I want to do the same thing on a Welsh. Kind of chair But I I want the band the the the knee bend to be further back towards the back bow of you know what I mean royal so it will kind of feel like out that spot right there too right. Yeah Yeah and so I I kind of want straight arms and then I want the back of the boat a little bit up so I feel like it kind of feel like you're a lumbar region So really cool. Yes Tom Kinda. I'm trying to make the form right now but as I said I have. I've got three kids and sometimes sometimes it feels like I've got three wives as well. Yeah I don't get much shop time these days but I'm in my shelf right now in the total mess because of this guy yeah and as Rudy. I'm always working on chair. I've kind of yeah kind of ended up with this chair making in. I love it and I don't think I'll ever go very deep. Into fact were ever again. I think the chair making just feels right for me and I don't. I don't see why I should do something else because I i. Yeah Yeah no. I totally agree with you. Of course I got on this whole big thing and let me build forever but hopefully I'll get back to it but but so are you bending Calendar Greenwood Well I'm bending air dried airdrop. Yeah it's mostly it's mostly ELM yeah yeah and elements. You know. It's it's very traditional. Would for these chairs progressive really immediately. We we speak to Chris Williams Regularly and he's kind of envious with the L. We got here because it's because Dutch ELM disease. It's kind of been dying out a lot of around Europe but a but here Norway we we've got a pretty decent amount of ELM still so And I've just been lucky to get some huge trace from France and you know just people and I've brought them to the sawmill myself and I'm air drying backyard Yeah so There's an abundance of ELM in my in my shop that's nice. That's nice and then I can. I can smell it from here. Yeah it smells really good. Yeah so so yeah. I've never worked Within the ELM Learn Dutch ELM disease got ours. Long Time Ago I think there's still a few bet I think ours was even different American L. Anyway but Somewhere but not exactly so so have been fairly easy home does it? Bends very nice. Yeah no problems. Well that said when I got into Steam Bending. I didn't realize at once that I needed a bending strapped Watching Yeah I've been watching. All these videos You know with the Windsor Chair. Mark spending just with using their pinkies. Look very easy and I tried that and it didn't work and then I bought the valley pending strap and Just a regular boat winch So and and I picked up some tricks along the way from PD. Alberton Burn Shanley with a especially with soaking the woods on four hundred. So I even though it's air dried as so good for at least three days. It's probably overkill but it makes can makes it really. Yeah easy to bend. Yeah Yeah I can. Yeah it's hard for me to get even airdropped would here I have to do it with kiln dried but yeah? I've done the soaking technique in and then steaming for twice as long works really. Well I've mentioned before it was a long time ago. I couldn't place it but I remember seeing a guy who's making a curved rail an outdoor railing around rule and when he started the job he just put the railing board in the pool and let it sold for the time he built the insider sub frame for that railing and then he got it out in a matter of it looked like it was like two to three inches thick handrail and by the end of it he was able to basically like in the field. Bend it to form did each on. No I don't think he did. It was just really but it was like it wasn't tightened herbs. It was very long so you don't stress it quite because as far as I know it's It's it's actually the the heat that Softens the Lignin the stuff inside that makes bendable right? Yeah and maybe is that. He wasn't turning it thirty degrees. You know it was. It was a much longer softer sweep. I mean if I took a two by four and put it in a body of Water. I could bend it around. Okay Fair curved without replacement think your boat makers put plastic bags over their long piece of wood and put Steve that began. They bend him in place and then I think of mentioned this before in the podcast but There's a Youtube Channel Inc Ingles coach works. Yeah Yeah Yeah. He's great. Yeah Yeah I mean bending these like Four by six pieces of wood skirt. Yeah he's insane. Yeah Yeah like I said up I thought it was interesting that he puts a little ammonia in his In his team. So yeah but I. I saw with video where he puts them on steam. But I think that's overkill for a comparatively light Benz. I mean he's spending like a two by four or something like that to buy threes though he served i. I don't think I will ever need the Monja to bend but What I do I I put my i. I stopped by blanks and then I put them in Aluminium or call tin foil. Yeah we call it. Yeah Yeah Yeah. And then steam them in Tinfoil. This is a trick. I picked up on instagram. And it kind of creates a heat chamber within the steamer so an I keep the aluminium foil on while bending it and it keeps it moist and soft for much longer. So how long did you leave the after you've got it bent? How long do you leave the foil? On the way I just take it off after the bed. Okay to inspect the blank and see if it's broken up the curve. Yeah Okay and I've seen Peter Galbraith. He's doing the same with some shrink. Wrap some screen grab. Yeah Yeah Yeah. Yeah that's nuts. I've used that technique with two. Yeah Yeah Yeah. Yeah but And I think we might actually correspondent about that Munson years ago but Yeah I think You made a good point aluminum poles much cheaper than shrink. Wrap exactly right Bush. Yeah that's ringcraft dovan shrink. Wrap at work. I don't have any at work you because we buy it by the case. It's not cheap at all. Yeah and that's what you have to do here is you know. I gotta buy like you know a hundred bucks a shrink wrap which is going to last me for you know my lives descendants lines. Maybe I should still my extra back to you the shrink but I just just will it to me when you pass away okay. We'll do. I just picked up a pack of that. Earn a pack. A roll of that packing like rap spool of plastic wrap basically. I did that too as I was cleaning. I had some projects that I've just boards at her join ary fit but I got done with the project yet and so I just joined them up with just plastic like I was setting. They are under store. Oh yeah that kind of stuff with that work. I mean it's just a it's only like a school not just Jesus rabbit around. Of course I I think the whole point is just to keep the moisture inside the yeah the moisture transmits a heat and if you can keep the moisture in it keeps you warm. And then it will stay bendable. I think advantage with aluminum foil. Try that is that you can wrap aluminum foil around the piece before you put it into the steam box so it sadly with this rank and stuff. You got to take it out boxing quickly. Yeah I know the melt but it's not it's not vapor permeable how do you? How does this team get to it if it's wrapped in aluminum foil put in the box already wrapped up the Yeah good question. I think in my case the the steam doesn't actually get in because I soaked him on forehand so they're really wet Johnson Yeah so the so the kind of wet on the inside and what? It's actually only the heat that gets transmitted. Had the he'd Kinda of gets you know caught in the moisture inside there and it stays in there the soaking the moisture. The Wood you're wrapping. You can't have moist transfer any more but the is basically just a way to convey the heat to accept exactly. That's a good point. Good point I live and breathe waterproofing. Yeah we'll see. Yeah yeah that is an advantage because yeah when your technique us with UNICEF ring crap is yeah once you take it out of steam box Has to go quickly under the shrink wrap wrapped up tightly and then than it had been but Yeah so you know. It's one less thing you have to be hectic about steam bending Slows the steam bending so many tricks techniques and a whole lot of magic that happens. Yeah yeah a lot of luck. Yeah Yeah US yes but anyway. We'll let's let's talk about what y'all are doing so so clause Love Y'all are now involved with the church chat I guess weekly episode. That comes out with you. Y'All too and I was talking about I guess chairs at Y'all Klein on auction sites. And what chance. A little bit about how that how that came to be really well. We met and we met in the two thousand eighteen in Munich in a class to get closer. I am Chris. Class For making a steak heist stool three legs. And we we got along. We we have pretty much the same sense of humor which is toilet humor. I've been waiting for poop or for Joe. I'm sorry okay. We'll we'll we'll bring those in and now we're nothing not a high class woodworking podcast. A we've been communicating over over email. And what's happened and whatnot three DECI? I find it interesting. Chair clubs finds it interesting. Chair Chris Find Interesting Jaren. We send them around and talk about them. At one point Chris the idea to To make it into a shot and sort of make it a block post and Things that we say about. These chairs is notable Jokes in jokes. Of course there are some interesting stuff that we talk about that actually could help other chair makers or even people were not into chair making. Maybe we'll be getting interested in making to To make that step into chair making and We discussed technique step to chair makers may have used the appearance of the chairs old So tried to make it interesting but also entertaining not sorry the sound about right all right and we also met in London right. Yes yeah yeah. So it's like really says we just kind of connected and I remember in bar in Munich. We would cookie bear with some other guys from the class And and Chris had his laptop in his bag and he had just been to wail cin Ireland. I think right at least it had yeah and he had his laptop I. It was full of chairs and Rudy asked him to bring it up. Chris was Kinda relaxed. Reluctant said they always you or with a bunch of chairs. That's boring yeah. We were like no no bring him on and we were kind of we just connected there then there and we've got the same sense of humor and you know we're just alike. I think and then we've kept in touch as says and we're kinda chatting almost daily for the last. I Dunno for Central Longtime. Yeah do you find that you? You have chats specifically for the purpose of repurposing for for the chat or are you just taking Cutting and pasting or cutting the conversation. You're already having and making it into church Yeah No We have chats specifically for the chair chat columns now okay. Yeah but it all star. Yeah but it all started just kind of hanging out online drinking beer and talking about chairs but now but now we can make an appointment we will meet up online Like Now we have an appointment on Monday to meet up and we're all Bringing each or chair into the conversation and they will just wing it from there and then we edited afterwards and I. We don't really edit it that much. We just take out the absolutely worst friendship stuff gets cut unprintable jokes. Yeah Yeah up. Much like club says it's not that much that we still some. Obviously yes church at after dark. Yeah Yeah it's it's it's really fun. It's it's When I when I started working I started reading blog of course And have to say it's kind of unreal to have a a column they're writing. It's it's really agree with that yet. Too Big honor and I think it's from our. We have a passion for chairs that I think Chris shares as well Into winning it's Chris who started of course all Inspired me to too much of my woodworking. I do today which I think for and Since since becoming interested in chairs I've literally looked at thousands of chairs online which clauses as well and Test has become a big passion in our lives Yeah now what So what are your Jump ahead a little bit. So what are your favorite chair forms? Notice at least in the initial chats. Think you'll headlight for four of them if I'm remembering correctly. Three or four of them primarily been of the vernacular type chairs. You'RE YOU'RE I. Guess you're wealth Stick chairs or some sort of other country type chair so Are Those your favorite chair forums or Y'all GonNa evolve into looking at some other forms giving Ford Chair chattan specifically for the Church at specifically and let's expand in in yourself particular. Well I think I mean I think I speak for for you. Clauses well The form Which such a broad term. So it's not a particular style but Within the vernacular form I think the Welsh chairs ended for me to Gipson tears from Ireland as well Are are very pleasing to my eye to my eyes and I'd say I like them to Mid Century Twentieth Century chairs from Hans. Victor to Bambi chairs from Gustav Bows or the Nakashima chairs. I like those as well but they are there. Different beast killer. Chairs probably going to be what we discussed here. I don't know if you have anything to add to rethink. No I think you're right. It's yeah I I. I don't think we'll be discussing modern shares in this child gets. It's it's all about analyzing the traditions and they'll the I don't know it's it's just a there's so much history to them so so many variations and and they're all made without templates you can kind of. You can kind of see the chair maker in the chairs. Brian Yeah so it's it's really it's kind of A. It's the other chair saw different. Beasts as you say I think that's a good expressions. Yeah it's a different skill. Set entirely making a desk chair. The only thing they share is that yes you sit on it but the way you make techniques used the language you approach it with the tradition. It's all one hundred percent different one hundred radically different. Exactly Yeah you get into the more technical side of the chair store to the motoring chairs for made with different joints and I think that the charming thing of these vernacular terraces stop there. The girls were very approachable for for beginners. If you wasted They are made often by people. Who Like your knee? Who just needed needed something to sit on? Something looks looks very nice. I think it is pleasing to at least to my i. Yeah Yeah I think probably most of the people that made these jurors that might be hey only made for chairs among our life and this is one of them you know I mean all these chair so most of these chaser they are not I mean the furniture of necessity right and their and their primitive and that kind of brings out a lot of creativity. A lot of weird joints lava weird solutions for us. It's interesting and we learned a lot from dissecting these chairs and I think if you took a modern chair it would be kind of two Schematic or to perfect. You know it sits this not much to gain from analyzing it. I mean all of them are maidens theories as well so you have you have a chair of homes wagner and the stairs. I God knows how many of them are made. In these vernacular chairs are one of the kinds of a Seattle like. Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah and also of course we want to be bit entertaining as well and a lot of them are very very wonky and weird we should also add set an interesting element for us so the brings out our good mood. Yes yes I think two of the chair so for ped- five-legged so that so yeah. Yeah Yeah Yeah. There's no many on the Internet that we have found that had five legs to be honest. A five legs has got to go on the church. You should only review chairs. That have odd number of LEX. Yeah we'll get five. Yeah so you'll are also interested in like Some of the modern twentieth century chair makers like Chester Cornet. Up just yeah. They're more vernacular format and yeah. I. I don't know if he has five legged chairs at least has four legged rockers. Or He probably has it all share. You GotTa know if he has the toilet chair. I I wouldn't be surprised if Chesterton admitted holy Jewish though a toilet rocking chair. Probably your yeah. Oh Wow we almost well we kind of get okay but So how did you get interested in? Shares I think clause you said you used to do flatwork. Now you primarily do chairs so so what? Kinda PEAK. Your interest in chairs. Well I've always. I think it has to my parents because my parents. I haven't gone up in a very rich family. I mean my people were hippies and communists We didn't have a lot of money but My parents always spend money on good quality furniture and They always had an eye for detail and the wheel. Wisconsin had these designed chairs in a house. Although we didn't have a lot of money for other stuff so I think it has to do with that. I I kinda early on developed an eye for You know furniture design and I've always loved cheers as long as I can remember and then I started woodworking You know Kinda to make this short I I always thought it would be somewhat impossible to make a chair. It's just seemed like Very far stretch from a daunting. Yeah it is and then I It was actually Schwartz I read his blog and then I bought the energies designed book and he kind of made it possible for me because he said if I can do this everyone can do this. And Yeah all credits goes to him actually Because he made me make my first chair using. His templates sent his measurements. And then after that I threw away all my templates and from I've been trying to make my own chairs So and for me. It's been a yeah. I don't know how this in just a few sentences spin spin a very personal journey for me to discover chair. Making it's kind of. It's it's definitely changed me as a person and We we we. We can get more into that afterwards. If you like. But the finale just say that I think so Rudy de. Yeah what about you? How did you get into chairs? Well it was interesting to hear Clubs a story just now. It's actually my story is very similar. I had this whole rick now. The night Thinking along to set my whole stories right before you know. Yeah Yeah So. We're very visual person. I have always liked design. Architecture has been a big favorite of mine and I I liked making sculptures before I started making furniture and a Basically got into I started by Furniture Journey with the anarchist designed book which was just mentioned on. That's that had a beautiful picture of a chair in it. Man isn't I then I read it and I thought Oh. Ashby says that I can't do it so I gave it a goal and and yesterday was a chair in front of me and it was basically started as Dot Book has Has Basically allowed me to make all the chairs and start on this journey. And I say thank you very much Chris Schwartz as well Up since then I've seen I I see chairs us I read this as well. Somewhere as functional sculpture an iphone always had a very keen interest in sculptures and design informs. And how something appears to appearance of something very striking When I see a chair immediately speaks to me and I am. I'm sometimes blown away by the beauty of chairs and I think that's you could sound like disease but it's It's really not you know. He said it's just I have a passion for it and I like that. It also allows me to currently practice making big chairs small as well as small towns because it some making sculptures is one big favorite thing need to do as well so things basically now tells a little about your your wooden sculptures. How did those come to be the? They're absolutely facet thank you. I always made sculptures of things that I am that I am in love with. What did I baste At least I'm familiar with and I made my first chair which was a three legged chair and One Night I came down downstairs I looked at the thing and I thought that was a thing of beauty and I want to carved up nine thought. Can I do how can I do dot? And I carving and I made a My first chair sculpture in that hasn't stopped since then and I What I really like about the The sculptures particularly update their complicated. And when you carve a bunny it's just a solid thing is out of it but with Jerry to you have to go under the seat and between the legs in between two spindles and and there's ingrained and It's it's very exciting Karcher. In the little minute forms you do It used to take me really longtime but I've cut cut it down to a couple of hours. So so so so What type of tools to use to to do the carving? That's a good yet. It's actually pretty simple. I wonder why you so many hours actually. But no it's What what I use this Use An odds to carve out the rough sculpture them. I use I use pencil Of course Every sculptor does the I draw on. The peace would see what has to be removed in a rough it out with a couch than I dreamt to to get between spindles. power tools. Yeah I know the dreaded remmel. Wow that's great use for dribble now. Yeah people knocked the dribble but it's a lifesaver many many times. I love my level and I'm not sponsored by them. I use a couple of gouges us. Carving is a There's a lot of bent bent nights that I have to use because it's a very very hard to get for example to hold a seat Any ways to get there and but I'm still developing developing them as well and I I know start using SEVERI. Small glass scraper from Wang loss of my wife hung on the dots that allows me to get really To the finest to the to the most hard to reach spots India the legs in law. That's been good. Yeah well that was. Unusual SET OF CARBON. Yeah and and for listeners will go ahead and throw a plug in here under Hatchet Dot. Com. Just go there and look at some of these tiny chairs. They're absolutely fascinating. Like I said you're asking way too little for the chair. So by a bunch of them right now but those are absolutely fascinating Well close You've been experimenting lightly with your new I think you have two versions of your Norwegian stick chair. Now Yeah correct and you and you keep going thinner and thinner with those As far as the the dementia. Are you going thinner with the seats? I know that you are on. The arm bows but is everything kind of being reduced. Yeah everything well. Mostly the arm and I mean the the my spindles are still a five eighths of an inch my legs around Joe. I don't know they're probably the same as always been so. I'm going to bet dinner on the seats and the arms and I kind of like my new chairs but to be honest I think I went to bit too thin on my last level. My latest chair. I mean not. Structurally but comfort wise because sits That the army's really slander. And it's kind of feels better to have something to put your rests on your your own son. It's a it's a bit thin but I'm just experimenting and trying stuff out and as chair makes before me. I'm yeah I'm going to enter and I'm I'm not in the Winter League. I mean the windsors much thinner at least some of the parts but farewelled should for Welsh Heritage Probably a stint. I'm going to get to yeah well. It's absolutely beautiful chair and looks very comfortable. You got quiet at least from the pictures. It looks like you have quite a lean back in the chair as far as from front to back so it looks like you just Kinda sink into so. It's it's looks really great. Yeah thanks Kyle and I've I've also been experimenting with racing. The hands soon. The are the lowest about two inches or a bit less lower in the back in the region and then it is an hand so that kind of I I did it as a an purely I steadied thing. But it's also it also kind of pitches me back into the chair Yeah so I've been doing that for the last two chairs. Yeah but I consider myself a very much an amateur so I I'm I'm just trying south and Dell Yeah and As you said the Norwegian stick chair that's the name I I came up with it kind of didn't take much creativity to but It's really I mean now. I'm kind of changing the changing the subject here. But it's it's been a thinking a lot about this and I know you really have as well. What do you call chairs in? I know Chris Schwartz has as well. He's calling them American well six years and I've also been discussing this with Welsh chair. Make your Chris Williams because I really WanNa honor the the Welsh heritage and it's obese. It might chairs the stand on the shoulders of the hundreds and hundreds of years. What's Welsh tradition? But at the same time miters are not Welsh and Miss Williams is is really Yeah he's he's he's got strong opinions about this and it's all in his own right because You know it's it's his it's his. It's his heritage is his culture and I I think it would be wrong of me to call these Welsh but at the same time I want to acknowledge their head should I? I haven't really found a good name so they probably should have been weakened Welsh but that's too long so I kind of role in Norwegian would. That was good Norwegian soundtrack and everything. Yeah no I said when we we talked about Kris Williams Recently and Talked about you know what the definition of a Welsh stick chair and is it the fact that it came from Wales or that. It's made of sticks that is the most distinctive feature of it and he talked a lot about John Brown and and the reason book he's made in and I mentioned I said you know in in one hundred years somebody might look back and go. Oh that's Chris Williams chair you know as you draw inspiration from the different styles different techniques and different nationality influences. I mean it really becomes your own thing it does. Yeah but Yeah it it does but at the same time I'm I'm I'm very humble Towards you know Chris Williamson. No those guys so it will take me a while to call his chair my own. Yeah yeah the. The style originates wells. I I understand that. I'm not the stick in the chair aficionado. That Kyle is but I do understand that. Lineage of these chairs Yeah is there a native Norwegian chair of a different former of similar form Yeah that's a very good question and I've been asking myself the same thing. I would really like to find a vernacular region forum that I could develop and kind of bring out from the shadows so history and there's one chairs that one stick chair for this really well known here. Norway. It's called the I don't know how to crowns is in English but it's called the boot. The budel chair itself actually is just named after a valley in northern Norway which is called the Blue Doll doll means smelly so yeah and What I think is really boring. It's actually a sexually just a plain copy of sack Windsor. And it's they haven't really done anything to change it. They've kind of just you know kind of just made it in Norway in the fifties and sixties so it's really not that old either and they just renamed it but here nor we is has become a really famous for some reason. I don't know but it's I mean it's it's a fine chair but it's not at all right Got The name not the actual heritage year. Yeah so it's it's. It's just a Sec. Windsor and Sardar in Norway Sorry what kinds of old chairs do you find in Norway Agendas letterbox or visit holidays? A little ladder back chairs. Yeah absolutely same here. We've got very few structures and a lot of letterbox. One of one of the most famous chess from at least from this region in southwestern Norway. Is that our letter backs. Well they may letterbox. Yeah we'll cut the well Would've going to say. Is that our local museum here. Actually last year you know that. They suddenly announced to everyone's at least my surprise that they've got a collection of thousand vernacular chairs. Oh my gosh. Wow yeah the and they were going to photographs these to kind of put them online in digital museum and while doing this they were going to exhibit them You know maybe Sodhi out of time so I've been going to this exhibition several times to see a new chairs that they put up and looking and looking for a new itchen form that you know places my I in And Really looking and I sent an email to the concentrator who is Cheer Make Your actually. And he's in charge of this and I told them about my quest and I also told Chris Williams about this question. He's really eager for me to find this to get off his. Yeah and then Corona head US and yeah so that's where I'm at and so yeah. That's my answer to your question. Have they put any of the chairs online? I don't think so I at least I haven't found them if I found them. I'll I'll send them to you. Yeah if you if you're interested so yeah we're not fantastic well Well let me close by asking and I think you might answer this question Klaus. But what's next for you but I think we know you're on a quest for a Norwegian chair form. Yeah Yeah Yeah Yes yes. Yeah go ahead. No I'm I'm obviously on a quest. We didn't share for them but most of all. I'm on a quest for making cheer that Really Expresses Myself My and I'm not trying to sound pompous Zuma Damn. I'm trying to find the cheerful that expresses my in my inner self Biggest that's really what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to express myself through these chairs. Senate I know that may be sound. Very I dunno self-indulgent something like that Utterly necessary. Yeah Yeah so actually for cheer making is as I said. It's been a personal journey in. It's it's really I have really. This is not just a fad from Really found found a to express myself and to get stress relief and to just lower my shoulders and Yeah I don't know just Rewire my brain in a very good way. So am always trying to make a chair that I end up feeling is representative of me and it's really difficult for me to break way from. Oh my inspirations I know you can relate to this and probably other you guys as well because it's easy to get inspired To get in. Yeah totally influenced influenced. Yeah but it's it's hard to break away from it so that's really my in. My main quests and if I ever found in regent vernacular cheerful I would also try to make that my own. So yeah right well. We'll No I I do find it somewhat inspiring that that you're trying to Find Your Voice in your chairs and I think all of us struggle with that You know a you know. I certainly have and you know. I've done a few off. The cuff designs and most of them have been utter failures. That were repurpose for other things. But yeah it it. It is something that you try to look at in you know. Yeah you might get inspiration from this and this and you know I know one. I was getting some inspiration from Peter Galbraith in how he did The seat on his stool and Yeah by the time I finished mine. Went well actually. It's totally different than his. But I can see that inspiration but it's it's those little things that kind of you know. Get you that you. WanNa make sure you put a piece of yourself in each of these chairs. Just copy somebody. Yeah did you like you your seats. Yes yes. In fact of used it on a number of Different schools and I'm still coming up with different combinations but when I get back to cheer making Which hopefully will be hope? So I yeah exactly exactly I keep it. It's one of those things. Think it's a little bit. You know mainly Irish German. I think I get a little bit of my German heritage in me. I start getting fascinated with making these little. Do hickeys okay. I can do it this way. I can do this so But yeah I definitely need embrace my my my more our side sometimes. Yeah but But so Rudy what what's up? What's next for you where you look like clubs? I have not got a lot of time in in shop because it might kill seven nine in day. We are home school in it's been it's been very slow in shop but once I finally finish. This chair does big chair. I would really like to make another Gibson Chair 'cause I made. It gives you four and it was so much fun than it sits really well and I want to make another one and And painted blue now. I hot lanes Painted red and everybody loved to read so then I decided right so now I just have to make another Gibson Jaren making blue. Yeah I did like that Red Gibson that you made man. I need to find one of those. 'cause yeah that's my Irish heritage there. I really want to sit in one and see. They look extremely comfortable but but The way the arms interlock with the spindles. That is just that that that is just. It's fun flex by sexually about and most of all it's just really fun to make it and as I'm really dying to make one of those and I have this other Low back to this sort of in the back of my mind taking shape some inspired on a whale Blowback that we that we actually didn't a church up three legged lobeck. I just have to find a solid arm and go which is harder than you think. Yeah Yeah so you say you're GonNa just saw that out of A. Yeah yeah that's hard. Yeah yes I think. Plywood Particle Board what can I do? But no I don't want to do that. I won't make it look would. Yeah the you mean like from a crook a branch or something like that. Yeah that would be. That'd be ideal but now there's been a lot of lawless storms and I live very close to a forest. No chance that there is a branch dare. I just have to find it waiting for you. Yes yeah and then the thing with the tiny chairs. I'm working on On I made Bohemian Jared one point which is in Germany. It's called a brench which is a sort of was Brenton on this. Basically a seat and a back that is made out of solid wood has four six X. It's like this is like this. Huge back splash Yeah and I'm trying to make sort of a blog post or video or something like that to make make it may be available to other people that they can also make because that was pretty okay smelt so not so not so notice. Difficult is to Stick chairs because they don't have to the sticks and so a more on making not as well. Yeah Yeah Yeah. That's that's that's interesting cherry. I remember seeing that on your on your posts full size version of that. I actually I I own one and I bought. Oh you do okay yeah. It's an old one from eighteen twenty. So it's an actual antique something big maybe about copying that once it sits okay. It's not really comfortable. I'm more into the other stick. Chairs meals the Germans stick players are okay but I I like the the Welsh heritage jared better. There's a lot to be said for Germans but comfort is not what I think of when I think that's a good point do that. They do enjoy it. And that's a great segue so let's get to our nightly dear choices so I think all start off. I'm drinking a local Bruce Saint Arnold and an amber ale and it's perfectly balanced. It says so on the can you? Yeah so and Story about done. It should turn that off but Anyway but it's it's a great. It's a great local beer say Arnold Amber L. So Sean where are you drinking? So I have a a local crew. The earnest brewers here in town. I live in They have a awakened bake which is their crunchy Hippie OATMEAL Oatmeal wheat Brown with Maple Syrup. So good as it's barely we when we started this. It was just early afternoon. It was a perfect earlier for me. Had it it smells immediately of coffee. Has the sweetness of a little bit of Syrup in it and is a Nice Brown Nice Cool the army. What are you drink well right now? I just finished my coffee in the conference during the during the podcast but another thing I did is. I ordered some beer during the podcast. As so as you well. We have video going so I had to do something. Hop Wins Brewery is a brand new micro brew. That's in between my office at my house and I don't know if they have any distribution at this point. I think they're only selling out of the brewery But with what's going on now. They're doing the normal curbside Small local delivery that a lot of microbrews doing around here so On my way home I will be picking up a growl or of strong island I will. I will let everyone know how that had. It is spelled what is included in this. They spelled it wrong. As long islander I have my own opinions of this but It's spelled word. Capital S. T. R. A. W. N. capital G. U. Y. L. I. N. I would've made Carol. I would've I would've done S. T. R. A. G. G. G. G. Uwe struggle. Strong Guyland. You gotta you gotta emphasize the G. in there but they weren't withdrawn so I don't know we'll see It seems like it has the potential to be very good. I've never had one of their beers. They've only been selling for a couple of months so I'm excited to try it trying times. Starting very yeah well. They've been working towards it for like over a year they. They've had their social media going the whole time but they only actually opened their doors for business about two and a half months ago so it can't it must have been rough for them. Yeah so close What are you drinking? Yeah well since we started chatting of been had three bears and At her no. It's cold local breweries. Local craft to beer thing as hasty. Ipa and Yeah I don't know I'm not sure if it's a out of a cancer I'm not sure how as it was but it was good. I've heard that the IP's are different. Once they get over there. I think that was an with an American thing that that kind of then crossed the ocean. Yeah got to Europe. And so that the European take on as opposed to what a Vermont as opposed to mid Western. Pa is totally things. It must be because California's not from New England. There right. Yeah so yeah and You know famously Expensive in over so While we've been talking about probably drinking beer for two hundred dollars screaming expensive. Wow yes hence the culture of moonshine. Potato. Yes yes. It is a so so rudy in a beer rich Germany. What are you drinking? Yeah there's I'm reading a Agustina. Beer which is from a Munich brewery from thirteen twenty eight It's five point. Two percent on the Brewers basically in a nonprofit organization they. They don't do any advertising on the older the profits basically go to to Good what do you call that Good Call Law. Oh okay yeah so This which is not the reason why I drink. I drink drink it. Because it's an awesome but it's like an monastery Brewers like that it kind of it used to be of. It's it's in the city still it's The way I could go on for hours about this Than THE WAY BREW. Their beer is Very different than the other breweries Munich and the on air only independent As while the other ones have been bought by Big Company Homes everything. Yeah which is already more reason to support them in all the other yes absolutely. Yeah but they make To make a couple of years this is the the latest woman spike when David Feith when six percent and end docto profess beers six percents in a day are all excellent so Yeah Yeah here than go. There go for steamer. Yeah without when you meet. I met when I was in Munich that In that class was there was that that was the week of October fest. And I had never been to Germany before during HCT fests and Brace Yourself Never Americans light lying on the pavements. In little they were so drunk. Yeah we really put out our best selves when we leave the country. Well you know if they would come to the country any other time you would find. Americans passed out on the street. Maybe not common. At least since they were passed out they weren't being obnoxious. Yeah that's right you by trolley ride in Kentucky many a trolley ride just talking about Gobert fest again. This they might council this year says. Don't plan the everything. Yeah believe it or not right now. We're supposed to be in Massachusetts at woodworking Five woodworking life. Was this weekend this weekend. Yeah and we just be get class now horizon victim yeah pumped up on my calendar. Friday and I had to get deleted the and and Rudy me we We're planning to go to Kentucky in November so with we're still hoping that Hold South it does. I might make the drive. That's only about three hours for me. So Oh yeah that would be cool. That'd be awesome. We're only planning to what is Rudy? How hang out. Drink bears chairs. Yeah I go there and drink beer let me find. We all have a great town. There's lassie and do around there. See and there's a couple of Shaker villages not near not too far away. They're fantastic so yeah. Yeah so we're obviously. Yeah visiting. Chris yeah is he like giving allcock downstairs or something bench bench. Yeah usually one of the benches. Yes there you go yeah. We'll just sleep on the benches. Yeah yeah well. If he'll do stay there highly recommend the COVINGTON are Covington. Hotel there Fantastic place but I actually think he had someplace for us. I think yeah okay well should. At least I'm sure he will take you there for For dinner or something It's it is a great place. It food good drinks but anyway well. Let's move on so on interwebs. Rudy working folks. Find You I have a. I have a website which is Under hatchet Dot Com U. N. D. E. R. H. A. T. C. H. E. T. dot com and my instagram account is the same under hatchet and Yeah we were on lost. Lost Art Press blog when we do detests print tactic costs. What about yourself? Yeah well I've got such an easy put out. actually bad for Norwegian name. Oh it's not that bad except because you know what they did. There was actually this famous. Nhl player called. Brian screwed land. You'll him him no. I'm not a hockey but I'm sure nice hockey's huge. Yeah well anyway. Sorry did he. I have no idea I just always. He had the same name as me. There's American football player but the same last name as mine but no one's still. No one can save. Yeah there you go. So we're in the same boat uh-huh that well But anyway my name is Klaus Rude Land and it's not screwed as you think it's but it's yeah it's S. K. R. U. D. Land. That's my Handle on instagram. And it's also my website. Classic Ruslan Dot Com. I just realized now should Had No website to I should just use cheer making clouds. That would be easy to remember. Oh there you go there you go yeah. I haven't done that yet. So we'll see Yami working folks find you. Well I can be found at Diani plot on twitter or penultimate wood shop on instagram. Which doesn't really matter and Pulled a beer on untapped where I'll be checking in some hop wins later. Oh yeah that's great and you can always find me at Barton Dot com on instagram. The only social media plex matters. I don't have the ability to mute that right now. I know exactly exactly and since I'm recording this show. Ooh You're going to have to do some pros. Post production work do that again. That's not calling instagram. The only social left Matt. Sean can folks find you? I'm at Shawn W. Seventy eight on most Social Media's that matter or don't matter including untapped where I checked in with my wake Currently hippie with Maple Syrup there and with added that just about wraps up this show. If you haven't already please subscribe to the show on on any pod Catcher of your choice just surfing the modern Word Association there. You'll never You'll you'll never miss any of our exciting episodes while you're there. Please leave us a review and you can follow the modern woodworkers association on twitter at Nwea underscored national an Instagram Mwr. Podcast or. You could grab your friends phone. And just subscribe to the podcast. 'cause you know he'll enjoy it or schill enjoy it and most importantly go back to your grandma's house dig through and find the vernacular chair she has and then carve yourself a nice little miniature version of it and get the shop right on.

Rudy Everett Kyle Lee Valley Chris Williams Windsor Chair Europe SHELLAC Peter Galbraith Sean Norway Chris Milk Shana Julio Chris Rod Welsh Kris Wirtz Covington sheen US
Amanpour: Christopher Ruddy, Danylo Lubkivsky, Peter Galbraith and Christopher Wylie

Amanpour

1:00:09 hr | 2 years ago

Amanpour: Christopher Ruddy, Danylo Lubkivsky, Peter Galbraith and Christopher Wylie

"Have the right to know if the president is acting in their interests the White House blogs a key witness in the impeachment inquiry I'll speak with the president's unofficial spokesman Hello everyone and welcome to on board here's what's coming up the American people the immediately without speaking to the whistle blower without seeing the whistleblower complaint without interviewing anybody they immediately called for an impeachment inquiry the failure to produce this witness the failure to produce these documents we consider yet additional foreign and military aid to Ukraine including this one the top US diplomat in Ukraine Bill Taylor asked Alwi now saying that security assistance and white expose the data harvesting scandal at Cambridge Analytica Christopher Wiley on how it help trump get elected see announced Nancy Pelosi announced the impeachment inquiry I think the president agrees with my assessment we both agree we see this as a political act not illegal act thirteen months to an election there are some serious allegations raised bring them out through the oversight process of Congress instead understand where the president and the White House is coming from because remember as much as people say obstruction with Muller this president waved executive privilege there were five hundred aimed to investigate his political opponents he was cited several times in text messages between top diplomats discussing the president's request and the withholding witnesses five hundred fifty million dollars spent two years of investigation they found no evidence of Russian collusion shocking isn't it no evidence strong evidence of obstruction of the constitutional functions of Congress a CO equal branch of government so what is Donald trump the administration is barring a key witness from testifying today. US Ambassador to the EU Gordon Sunland he had agreed to appear voluntarily House meeting conditioned on Investigations Sunlen Response Call Me President Trump says he did not want Sunland to appear before what he calls a American politics and abandoning allies in Syria who will answer the call when the US next needs help then seeing people go to the leap but his lawyer says Sunland had no choice but to stand down saying that he was quote profoundly disappointed he's a central figure in the president's bid to persuade you totally compromised kangaroo court but House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff says this will only intensify Congress's resolve welcome to the program everyone I'm Christiane Amanpour in London fuel to the fire now the White House is stepping up efforts to hinder the impeachment inquiry into president the President Strategy here let us get the insides of a man who knows Donald Trump well Chris Ruddy is CEO of newsmax media and a frequent sounding board for Donald Trump and frequent guests on this program as we try to pass what he's saying what he's doing I'm not GonNa say what's in his mind because last time you said only the president knows what's in his mind by withholding testimony the truth is going to think and should have been allowed to testify today was that a mistake I do think that the administration you know this made it seem that they were more interested in the act of the impeachment rather than finding the truth. I don't think the president frankly is overreacting and the White House is overreacting Chris Ready what is the president thinking what is he being saying to you've been talking to him in in the last recent days we've talked a couple of times by phone since police ride that there was ever any quid pro quo now you said I need to just make sure that we're all on the same page Nancy Pelosi made her move without any you say that with a little bit of a twinkle in your eye do you think this it is this a threat to the president I believe it's a mortal threat Hanso become in my view was radically radicalization that freaking out the whistle blower is in the complaint and that could come out as if there were fair hearing some maybe in the Senate trial if there's an impeachment what do you think I mean and they get into the end of the day the accused him of obstruction so I think he looks at this and says why do I benefit playing the Nice guy here either in congressional committees involved in the impeachment inquiry but I'm like residence in in what you say that you're a friend of his you've spoken to him recently after this I think what we're seeing from the Democrats in Congress ahead fake they're saying this is only about the Ukraine we're only going to do this in ninety days why then do you open up six I think Adam Schiff is you think he should have allowed him to go testify do I think unless there's some really pressing reason for privilege the president has denied of what the whistle blower was during that's not quite the time line the transcript of being released no no no she announced before the transcript before they had seen the presidency he certainly should treat it that way because it's not this issue about the Ukraine I think you know in basketball they have the term head fake inquiry was announced saying it's a mortal threat to his presidency not many Republicans are saying that on the record people are getting leave the congress I'm a journalist I believe Congress has a serious oversight role and that the president and the White House should respect that oversight role so basically you're saying as his friend is somebody association with Dolinsky the issue is when you have sex six congressional committees we all know that when Watergate started nobody had even heard of the Watergate tapes I'm transient they had accents what we do know is that the whistle blower did speak to Adam shift week or two before the complaint was first surfaced they had knowledge of what were the Chris Ready you were a journalist at one point and you and you still like you actually covered a previous investigation into in previous president yeah listen to him you think they should not have obstructed Gordon Sunland from going to Congress I wouldn't use the word obstructed obviously say that he would say that he's called it a witch hunt and we understand where that comes from given that he says that but other Republicans Mitte very big mistake and it backfired to Bill Clinton ended up very popular and I've said publicly that I think we look back and that the president had done Bill Clinton had done scathing of the Ukraine issue on the China issue the quid pro quos that they identify that the president implicitly made and he said Gov that's change the number of people saying the president should be impeached is increasing not significantly but it's moving in a bad direction for the president there's no doubt about it well what is it the polling data the pulling is moving in favor of the inquiry this more than a majority wasn't back fifty eight cents the notion that president trump defense is that he's trying to clean up corruption in Ukraine just falls apart when it's clear that he's only impeachment against President Clinton but certainly I was part of the media that was very critical of him that led to the impeachment and I look back and I think that those of us that were critics nations ship these trade deals these are these are deals the Democratic Union support the Border Security that was democratic issue twenty years ago so NATO's asking for one name to be investigated that is Joe Biden and his son who happens to be his political domestic opponent I don't think investigating Joe Biden is in a unilateral presidential decision to put American troops out of Syria and we have had everybody for Mitch McConnell who said that it would only empower Iran deflect any of this so this has to follow its its path as I think you say right now I I wasn't an advocate of the spending a democratic issue so you know he's there there's people just sort of have a knee jerk reflex against the president because it's Donald Trump so let's just I mean okay you would only including so-called presidential friend Lindsey Graham the senator let's just play what he said I expect American President Mart or politically right I think definitely was outta bounce it's not a crime he's the chief law enforcement officer the nation if he wants to request I say it is not just the usual suspects who yelling and screaming it is now increasing members of his own party particularly in the wake of what seems you would have been the first to shout and scream bloody murder if President Clinton had done what what president trump is doing well what the White House has done and you say Mitt Romney for instance who is an elder in the Republican Party's been governor he's now senator he's run for president He was very evidence that he ever colluded with Russia but yet roberts went well of course it's different because it's donald trump no because it's very in Russia and Assad to Nikki Haley who says that it would leave American allies to die on the battlefield on and on people who are in his camp we've talked about some of those issues through the years and I think that pushback is actually good for him to hear the other side it's not bad I think there's been a mistake made by a lot of good job as president I think a lot of Democrats are going to look back and say that Donald Trump was not as bad as they thought at the time I mean he's reconfiguring the China wants to turn out there was no cries you'll view on his judgment I mean because this is basically apart from anything else is what had spoiling down to and who was the administration's carryover appointed Special Representative on Syria and he is actually just context of this Christiane is that stated strongly before and just to reiterate if Turkey does anything that I in my great and unmatched wisdom considered to be off limits I will totally with again it sounds like a democratic issue doesn't it then he's he's tries about pulling the rug from under American allies space over that area so that Turkey could not follow up an invasion with any air attack and also but also like that's the case okay president trump has tweeted as xining phone call with President trump to go in and clear an entire level I think Pompeo who I think is one of the strongest members of the I do think it should be treated very seriously to me again it's not the Ukraine I don't think that the prison committed a crime related to the crane to to the to the Ukraine or to his and against the Kurds and the Turks have been a bad actor there rogue acid you think that kind of realization situation that we see going on there okay we're going to be asking obviously Ukrainian officials and officials who have been working for the US on the Kurdish issues we have spent trillions of dollars enough Ghanistan and all of that this is a president that campaigned about removing Americans for these quagmires wars that were involved vested Gatien the idea that Joe Biden there's no evidence Joe Biden committed any crime or his son so I don't think he should be investigated on the other hand this was the president with it was he did this latest unilateral tweet to pull out the US troops led him to then have the Pentagon say that they're going to deny Turkey the question well maybe you might be right because the first time he did this his his elder statesman General James Mattis resigned over it Brett mcgurk also who was in our national security interest it's never in our national security interests abandoned ally WHO's helped us by this it's never national security interest to create where was it ever written that Republicans are even conservatives like myself should support the president everything he ever does I'm still a friend of the President I disagree with them on a whole host of things as you know and we saw this during the Obama Years Democrats didn't push back against Obama on certain things so I think it's it's healthy it's good and I think this president does react any does listen all of people in the national security area is that wise I would I don't like the idea of a reduced national security apparatus about how it's viewed on the ground but I guess in some you think that this impeachment quiet could be a mortal threat to his presidency allies of ours so I think it's good that the Senate Republicans are pushing back and others criticizing it is fine and he will readjust because of that so it's a very healthy the president I think he was dissatisfied with so many members of the Security Council holdovers from previous administrations that he wanted a leaner meaner nationals you think it's it's probably good that Republicans are pushing back on the foreign policy machinations the president has said that he wants to cut back the security apparatus but you know we are facing we were chatting earlier in the green room about the mass so many crisis around the world China Hong Kong wisdom and experience you know leash he has people like Mike Pompeo his very strong and I think he's been good secretary of State Okay Chris Eighteen this call he calls me on thaw in people thought Donald Trump had a had committed a crime launched a two year Congressional Investigations for twenty percents off your first order visit Mac Weldon Dot com and enter Promo Code Warner W. A. R. N. E. R. Warner Stop Wasting your weekends in stores make it easy and get premium topnotch fabric with MAC WELLMAN DOT com. Don't forget that Promo Code Warner for Freddie wish we could continue we'll have you back again thank you very much indeed hey guys this is kinda rogers I live in active lifestyle long Iran now in Syria we have the brexit situation and those are the big ones there's little ones all over the world that the United States is dealing with you need a big staff tons of travel during football season constantly on the go I can't sacrifice style for comfort and thanks Amac well I don't have to anymore I'm sure you guys can't stand deal with those things I mean you you said it maybe through your mouth here well I don't think peop- bureaucracy necessarily cells in his sending very clear signals to the Turks that the American government's not going to allow bloodshed there were slaughter of the Kurds and I hope our president stands with the Kurds they have been shopping but it's easy and takes no time to place an order on their website the underwear shirts and sweats are all perfect for workouts or when you're on the move this is the most comfortable is partly because the trump administration doesn't really have very good controls over the defense and state apparatus as it stands so the Security Council was to help implement the pollen the the recent developments that discuss race a satin anxiety and disappointment in Ukraine let me tell you my reflection wheat twenty percent discount guys are terrible taking care of their health whether it's a knee injury bad back or something worse guys usually more comfortable rub some dirt on Stroia obliterate the economy of Turkey I've done it before I think he's having a little fun there unmatched wisdom or the likes to have a little I think he's avenue that's his sense of humor but knowing him for a long time that's him having a laugh but serious I mean this could be Turkey thinking it gets on woman created an easy way to chat with Dr Online with Roman you can get medical care free d if appropriate from the comfort and privacy of your own home you can handle everything composition was underpinned by strong position of alight Senator McCain Senator Portman and other prominent Republicans their president trump's the two thousand nine hundred ninety National League postseason this October as we said the treatment would be appropriate they can prescribe genuine medication that can be delivered in discreet packaging right to your door with free two day shipping guys go talk to the doctor erectile conditions for the reemergence of I I yes a now so this is kind of unifying Republicans against this foreign policy move online in a convenient discreet manner getting started as simple just go to get Roman dot com slash Amanpour and complete an online visit if your doctor decides Asian can be tough to tackle but it's really important to get checked out with Roman it's easy to connect with Dr just go to get Roman dot com slash Amanpour to get a free online than seeing a doctor I'm guilty of it myself the same is true for erectile dysfunction study shows seventy percent of guys who experience D don't get treated for it thankfully his friend media mogul Chris Ruddy plus we get the impact of the president's policy overseas what does it mean for Ukraine to be sucked into domestic I remember Vice President Biden who was the strong champion of the international efforts to support the of Ukraine but he was strong because his living I own making it hard to go back to anything else and if you think I'm lying give it a try you can keep the first pair of underwear and they'll still refund you no questions asked visit and free two day shipping that's get Roman dot com slash Amanpour for a free visit to get started get Roman dot com slash Amanpour the MLB Jeff Welcome to the program let me just ask you What I just said and we seem to be seeing had Ukraine is getting more more dragged into a domestic US political situation and eager to get his way out of that just some decision to provide Ukraine with the defensive lethal weapon was strongly supported by vast majority among the Democrats so season one pitch struck or one swing of the Bat and turned ties of October PBS's the home for me how this is being viewed in and beyond where you are right now I believe that the general situation a storm and it still fighting a war with Russia at its Eastern Border Danino look ski is the former Ukrainian deputy foreign minister and he's joining me now from Ah for many for many years Ukraine has enjoined where you strong bilateral bipartisan support which meant a lot for Ukraine at the center of the political crisis is a country more than five thousand miles away and that is Ukraine it is horrified at being sucked into this growing? US political for Ukraine is meant that Ukraine that the United States States Stanford Ukraine fights fights with Ukraine and parts Alba case so this is not only about Ukraine and Ukraine's interest but this is about the fight for freedom but also up until August he said this is a damaging mess for Ukraine it has always been a key point of Ukrainian foreign policy to show that we have US support and Our struggle for the international law and international dusters. Okay so let me just ask you to react to Mr Pavlo Kloempken who was Ukraine's Foreign Minister the United States I believe that we shouldn't we should avoid a possibility of having Ukraine manipulated in these terms or taking hostage offer since we continue our fight for freedom and we continue to Russia looking asking the new president's Lansky to investigate Joe Biden or his son I mean does that have any merit to you at all that would be very harmful if Ukraine drags into that local disputes and domestic issues in the United States but for us that's very important the turbulence that we see doesn't take Ukraine and absorbs Ukraine into that mass let me tell you that here commitments that you had got from the Obama Administration you mentioned Joe Biden who was vice president and as we know he had the sort of Ukraine anti-corruption filed understanding of this partnership between the United States and Ukraine will prevail and our common national security majority of the cranial according to recent polls are ready to fight for his country and the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians stand strongly for Ukraine. Can you tell me since you served under President Porsche and Co presumably during some of those years at least I mean this idea of if we speak about the stance Vice President Biden how it was accepted and received here in Ukraine his position his stand the recent developments I believe it is very important to remember the Ukraine looks forward to continuing military operation I would prevail upon any political rivalry or difficulties or misunderstandings so let me ask you because you brought it up earlier about the in your Ukraine we believe that the support for the understanding of the strategic Asian looks dangerous looks harmful that's that's why I believe that many of my colleagues in experts here in Ukraine believe that I'm from the developments we witness right now this is Russia so that Russia this is important not sorry to interrupt you I was going to pursue that president of a top on those issues and two very strong stance on the matter further if we speak about membership in the European Union and NATO for that for Ukraine it's very important that the United States remains the flagman ship of the vast military aid until it was reported in public tell us about how this president and his new administration is going to be able to stand up for what you say is needed American military support to fight off the Russians who are still continuing their fight in eastern Ukraine certainly that and that would be natural for the Ukrainians to put to race the only thing that I would like to tell you that's let us wish presents the Lansky to to make incited strongly with the position of the civil society with the will of the Ukrainian people that wanted to fight against corruption so for me that it looked very natural that in general looking at the situation that we see we will definitely noticed that there is only one side that wouldn't that may benefit from well of course it's very shocking shocking in the United States and obviously very shocking for the Syrian Kurds for the flag mentioned the flagship of those values that we are committed to and the Public Liam can is right here that the general development or does it nevertheless Ukraine is not only a play think Ukraine is a strong forty million nation which fight for independence the oval melt well in light for Turkey to clear a massive length of terrain in northern Syria and then the poor back by the president back to the United States is that we feel strongly that there is a need not to abandon the crane right now do not drag us his job well and to stand strongly against any pressure that he might feel within the the international relations but this is up to the president has said to the Turkish president you can go ahead you can you can take over this territory incidentally vast territory supporter who's just returned from the region Peter Galbraith Ambassador Welcome to the program good to be back with you so let let me just troops from northern Syria abandoning the Kurds who fought and died for the United States in the battle against Isis Turkish forces who view Kurds as terrorists we understand through officials who've spoken about this suspension of aid for a period of time that's the center of this crisis right now undyed for is now in great jeopardy we we think about this The Kurds suffered ten thousand Afghantistan in Iraq but in this case it was not particularly expensive for the United States either of money and certainly not in human life and yet things that I already mentioned of fight for freedom independence but also for our common values and principles this is the most important thing just to ensure terms of whether the support will be continue you know Ukraine may be considered a hostage of that this feud but President and I believe that he will do his best to ensure the national interests of Ukraine but the general masses with Bush may come these days from Ukraine familiar and you talk about the vast territory well president owed one himself revealed a map showing the territory that he wants to take as a buffer zone actually because presidents Lansky was a new president and you didn't have all the ducks in a row in Washington didn't even know about the suspension in this but his twenty one year old son was killed by an isis sniper imagine how he feels that everything that he's worked for that's been created that dad the United States has suffered less than ten dead in Syria your one of your previous guests spoke of the trillions that have been spent this is huge bipartisan backlash over his decision to turn his back on yet another ally even his closest Republican cheerleaders criticizing him over the move to pull us aqui Haley who said the US is leaving his Kurdish allies to die. Let us delve into this now and I'm joined by the former U. S. diplomat Peter Galbraith Longtime in Turkey and while Turkey categorizes the Kurdish leaders in serious terrorists just a few years ago there's a there's a real human dimension to this one of the people I was talking to I've known for some time as Sally Muslim one of the leaders there he's never mentioned deadly let's stop taking everything that Turkey says on on face value there has been no threat from northern Syria or from the Kurdish part of Syria has told the Washington Post if ethnic cleansing happens in our area this will be the US responsibility and he's asked for president trump to keep his promise to preserve people dead while the the only messages is confusion because the initial tweet said Turkey's go in there take care of Danino look ski thank you so much indeed so joining us the former Deputy Foreign Minister of Ukraine thank you very much at all of this comes as the President I roughly thirty percent of Syria and it's something that if that happened also with very likely extend the Syrian War be together with you to move in and clear that territory although the United States says that it is shutdown s base to the Turks one of the strongest criticisms came from the president's former UN ambassador was meeting with them inside Turkey so there's a there's all this doesn't quite add up let me ask you just askew fuel raw take on what's just happened over the last twenty four forty eight hours the president announcing these withdrawing troops the idea that that might be once twice three times multiple times by a combination of American and regional leaders just put into perspective into the domestic disputes insure that there is faster dietrich support of Ukraine but because this is not only about your crane this is about those safety that said abandon the Kurds is hurting US interests and its reputation it's not acting according to American principles I mean inside that area of northern Syria we saw him hold it up at the United Nations and it is a vase piece of territory I wanna ask you whether you think knowing the Turks this comments reflect the relative who who would rely on the United States and certainly who would rely on Donald Trump when when you make a commitment a Turkey you you can't go into the airspace does do do we do the Turks seriously believed the United States is GONNA shoot down their aircraft Why do they keep coming to America's defense whether it's in Iraq and in Syria how much more will they be able to be relied on warning against taking advantage of this will work obvious threat to destroy the economy and do you think denying the Turks well if they're destroyed they aren't going to be an ally at all but yes I mean general Muslim react to this I'm not sure whether it's the same gentleman who you referring to whose son was killed by General Mazloum Abdi who is the commander of the Kurdish lead Syrian Democratic Forces Donald Trump himself in Iraq in two thousand seventeen permitted a Shiite militia commanded by somebody who had was convicted of blowing up George Bush called for an uprising and then sat on his hands of Saddam crushed and back in one thousand nine hundred seventy five Henry Kissinger endorsed a deal between the one way and then you you tweet after a call with another leader and say yes go in go in and there's there's a history of this it's amazing that the Kurds have aligned themselves with us but what I heard both in Syria and for that matter in Iraqi Kurdistan is great the s by space now over that area will give Turkey message not to not to have not to make an invasion that leads you know a lot of the US embassy in Kuwait and operation directed by the Customs Sula Mania head of the outputs force to use U. S. tanks to attack the Kurds reason it couldn't take over Iraq is because the Kurds were there and this is how they were paid back and of course the the history of this goes much further back in ninety one the first president assists they're gonNA take care of the ten thousand foreign fighters who the Kurds are holding and imprisons and then all of a sudden it you know as much as anybody because you've been documenting the suffering of the Kurds for many many years in Iraq and elsewhere the day had been betrayed skepticism and unhappiness with the United States is certainly with with Donald Trump? I think the Kurds in Syria are really pleased with the outcry that has taken place bar it's a in the areas around Kirkuk it's staging operations of course one reason it's doing this the president of knowing the situation and of course the United States do you think that president trump's rather pointed tweet as general portrays has pointed out just in the last few hours that yes in in Syria the caliphate are has been defeated to eighteen thousand Isis fighters remaining in Syria and Iraq so on the issue which is to destroy the capability of Isis Sean Saddam that ended a Kurdish uprising that Kissinger himself had encouraged and supported so yeah it's really a sad history but the entire Isis is not destroyed as the president claims in his people want it hasn't happened yet the inspector general is basically saying that despite that outcry actually have any impact on Turkey and what it's going to do and not just on Turkey which is obviously massively important but also on isis on the ground because Kurdish security officials in Iraq Isis is very much resurgent in Iraq in the areas around Mozell in and add another ten thousand Isis fighters to the group that are already there and never mind also you know there are a lot of women could reignite if we are not going to be supporting the people who are our allies and again it has to be emphasized at such a low cost this is not Iraq in two thousand three on this is not Afghanistan this is a place where they've been at most two thousand the important way overseas ambassador Galbraith thank you so much and getting back now to our focus on whistle blowers they are certainly coming under the spotlight his territorial caliphate the Islamic state in Iraq and Syria solidified its insurgent capabilities in Iraq and was resurging in Syria it states that there are about forty Kirkuk the Kurds the Iraqi Kurds who our main allies in the fight against to Isis in Iraq effect at a time when the Iraqi army disappeared the only loose there are another ten thousand fighters who are imprisoned I've visited these prisons they're being held twenty two a cell but you know the Kurds are not it's not and our next guest is familiar with these pressures Christopher Wiley last year expose the inside story of how data analysis from Cambridge Analytical had illegally the Kurds have the situation pretty well under control although there have been some attacks and some bombings but you mentioned fourteen to eighteen thousand fighters on that trash the Turkish economy how how is that going to happen I there there's certainly a lack of clarity in the messages and interested and exploited the data of millions of facebook users he was the former director of research for the company which didn't survive the scandal and in a new is that the dispute between split between Sunnis and Shiites has not been reconciled it's not going to be reconciled so there's a a well of resentment Arkansas and just a handful of casualties it is an extraordinary situation and just another reminder of how domestic politics really plays out in a massive everybody that they were trying to engage with it was very much on the margins in the fringes of society to bring recruit people who otherwise wouldn't necessarily engaged just in the United States over the last thirty six hours and particularly the Republicans who have spoken out on this issue I have been heartened by it but the question is will luke gives his account of what happened and what he calls the psychological manipulation behind the election of Donald Trump and the vote for brexit here while in the Sunni community that's what allowed Isis to get there in the first place and that's fueling it's a revival and in Syria run these prisons and so you have to imagine that if there's an attack from Turkey you're gonNA see people who are guarding the prison going up to the front lines so just politica target how many people mean we have enormous electorate yeah it's really just a few states maybe even a few counties that matter so you know and when you when you look at the types of people that the company was targetting it wasn't in conventional politics would engage with particular kinds of ideas that they promoted online and dot can make an impact Cambridge analytic wise fairly surgical in how they were targeting people you know they wouldn't necessarily targeting people in California they would be focusing what kind of messages will kind of influenced yeah I think so the company engaged in both what you would call Geo TV or get a voter identity I mean just speak about that as well well I played I was just they are just talking to if you get an extra one percent extra two percent in dot swing state and you win that swing state that might mean that you win the Presidency so was we sat down with our hurry strain of us into data crime and it's dangerous to democracy to who did Cambridge their efforts on particular state you know where in terms of the electoral college that would be beneficial to you know say Wisconsin for example and he followed when he worked at Breitbart which is that politics exists downstream from culture so if you want to make an enduring lasting change on a society did wasn't necessarily just day to day politics was about changing how people perceived what was actually happening in American society and what was you don't focus just on day to day politics actually focus on changing culture and so a lot of the work that Cambridge Analytica cannot afford to lose that you've sort of sort of talked about that but do you think that you still have the kind of support that you need is it says for example was it trying to get more folks on your side to vote or keeping the other teams voters from showing up at the polls it's not like they have the capability to maintain all of this they are not getting significant financial help from the from the United States or anybody else the origins of y you know Steve Bannon wanted to engage in Cambridge analytic I really rests in this idea of the Breitbart doctrine what he what he is fighters or isis women in in some of these camps one hundred thousand family members and some of them are pretty tough militants as well I mean this whole thing when people who who are likely to vote ends you know through their own admission voter suppression activities but I think what's important and what I talk about in the book is that American society so there's these kind of without getting too far into the weeds of the psychology there's these five different axes that you're looking at people and sorting people how does this work can how does facebook information from facebook feed into that yeah so if you imagine for a second that voices of search wherever you download your casts that's three simple words voices of search to learn the secrets of search engine and content marketing pulled into Texas to take their guns that look at all these people flooding across the border you know whatever that you hear your fellow Americans talking you read The New York Times you don't see any of this and so from your perspective you go well these people don't have an agenda but these media organizations must have an agenda assess unfolded yeah so when when I got recruited originally by the company I was doing my you're a database guy you're you know former computer hacker type but what are you bring to the table in how that whole process and they're misleading me there though fake news these are real people these are honest genuine Americans right so what did you do inside Cambridge Analytica as part of all of this who they hang out with and you leave that going Oh wow this person knows exactly they understand me but frankly outrageous beliefs and you know they would then organized things like events people would be encouraged to meet each other and into being exploited and what came into analytica did was sort of a scaled version of that blind date where people online would able to talk about what music they like and it happens to be exactly what you like and you know what kinds of TV shows and for years and years looking through your photos talking to your friends watching you at work and following you to the point where they know exactly what to say you know what if you went on was actually with a soccer and that that stalker had been following you around those ideas that appeal to to that target audience and ultimately when we acquired see things that just resonated with them and they would be brought onto an environment whether it'd be a group or page or forum that was controlled by the how does a culture change and how does culture evolve and what makes something cool when when I first started we were looking at extremist groups right right you've got a couple of hundred people right even if you have fifty people you fled a coffee shop with fifty people and all the sudden what you sort of see online in order to lure you in and when you're in that moment and you don't realize that that's why this personal not blind date is saying that you're because I happen to have a background both in looking at as you said databases and Algorithms and all of that but also looking at you know got it and you're seeing it everywhere online by sheer coincidence because that's what everybody's talking about but then when you go and you watch you know CNN or NBC or whatever in our plumber or whatever from your perspective they're just regular Americans and they don't have an agenda but all the things that they're talking about you know that Obama is moving company but from the perspective of that of the target it's just something that happened to discover so for them they're guard is down and they start reading things a lot of that same approach was used in the United States but we were looking at groups of people who had the same kinds of characterists is a vehicle or a tool to identify people who would be vulnerable to that kind of messaging six but they happen to be in America they were Americans and rather than trying to mitigate them joining radical organization those people were vulnerable didn't consent to agree to be put into one of the largest psychological experiments in the United States you know if you have a group and let's just a couple thousand People Smith County Patriots whatever right and only five ten percent of people actually shop to an event in Smith County and what came of genetic would do would be encouraged these people to talk amongst themselves to go further and further incensio some of these teach the research in fashion trend forecasting and culture forecasting and so I- by coincidence got recruited America and the trump campaign go well so that's an interesting question because you know official and that you know that was grossly immoral you mentioned Steve Bannon how far back does the relationship between Cambridge what are the aspects of their lives and their characteristics that make them prone to believing or engaging with those kinds of ideas and what is it I appeal to them that that they have like this sort of intuition that something must be this must be true and and look at all these other look at all of these other you know this company we are now working on doing in my view the exact opposite of what we set out to do rather than protecting Americans or protecting who happened to also be on this group just by sheer coincidence it's a sort of a power of the community there too and there's a collective amplification of a lot of these beliefs a lot of the interactions that Cambridge analytica hands with Russian assets but also no I tried to explain some of the connections between the brexit campaign and the trump campaign and the behind the scenes ah sort of real question about what was the company doing meeting with the what later became the the trump campaign when at the same time there were I needed that they were meeting with Donald Trump before he had even announced that he was running and there is really the company said that they only joins the trump campaign in the tail ends on the election but you know when I was there and after I left with the trump campaign meeting with Steve Bannon and when some of their associates were arrested in the United States on wants to engage with pretty radical ideas and where they go from just being a regular joe to thinking about going to Syria and Russian embassy and so you know there's a lot of questions about why was the trump campaign talking to these people in Britain who you know and intuitively you know it's true all of a sudden you see everybody around you in this coffee shop and they're all talking about it and they might be an electrician unexploited them and you know when I you know and that's not what I went into the company to do and so when I started seeing that and so I'm not sure what Steve Bannon had in store or in minds as to why that company was charges of wire fraud and all kinds of financial crimes which then later pled guilty to they took that information and sent it to the at the Russian embassy that seems like something that

vice president Donald trump Ukraine US president Congress Syria White House White House Chris Ruddy Co Nancy Pelosi Christiane Amanpour Sunland Cambridge Analytica Adam Schiff EU newsmax media Gordon Sunland London
Margaret Evans met Canadian women in a detention camp for families of ISIS militants

The Current

17:56 min | 6 months ago

Margaret Evans met Canadian women in a detention camp for families of ISIS militants

"Hi damon fareless host of hunting warhead from. Cbc podcasts in. The norwegian newspaper fiji hunting. Warhead follows a global team of police and journalists says the attempt to dismantle a massive network of predators on the dark web winner of the grand prize for best investigative reporting the new york festivals and recommended by the guardian culture and the globe in mail. You can find hunting warhead on. Cbc listen or wherever you get your podcasts. This is a cbc podcast. More than three years after isis was chased out of raka syria. The question of what to do with the families of isis fighters who have canadian citizenship has still not been answered. there are women and children's still detained in camps in northeastern syria. Last month canada's federal government provided travel documents for a four year old girl to enter this country but others including the girl's mother are still living a life in limbo margaret. Evans is a cbc senior correspondent. Based in london. She was at the al roj detention camp where she spoke with some of the canadian women. There including that girl's mother margaret history returned and joins me now from london margaret. Good morning. Hi matt what is life like inside this camp. Well it's It's dismal by all accounts to the to the women. We spoke to its. We weren't actually allowed to visit them in the tents that they're living in but it is as you might pick your any refugee camp You know behind barbed wire armed guards and There about twenty five hundred people in this particular camp that seven hundred eighty four families of suspected isis militants. The women we spoke to talk to you Basically the lock of horizon but also living in in a camp in these cramped conditions and they worried about money food Being able to to to have medicine for the kids that kind of thing permanent caribbeans are there. It's hard to tell precisely it. Estimates are that it's between thirty and thirty five with most of them being children and many of them kids under the age of six one of the canadian women. Who is there. As i mentioned is the mother of that four year old who was brought to canada in march. What can you tell us about her. Well when we spoke to. I should say i'm asked that. We not identify them so that it would protect the identity in particular of their children but they also wanted to guard their own identity. They're all aware that their place is not viewed with sympathy by a lot of canadians Have court cases pending. They have lawyers in canada acting on their behalf and they were all women who seemed really frightened. They were frightened of saying the wrong thing because they have lawyers acting on their behalf. They were frightened of speaking in front of their syrian kurdish jailers and they were frightened of being stuck in that camp forever in frightened for the future of their children's children. This young woman took the decision to basically get her child out even though she knew that she couldn't get out and so she with the help of a former. Us diplomat named peter. Galbraith actually managed to get this done Her he helped her sister traveled to northern iraq than across the border into this region of syria which is an autonomously run region by the syrian kurds. So state players can say it's a state was area. We can't go. That's canada. Also says but in any case you asked about this young woman. She's she's like any woman you might need. She was concerned about Her child she was friendly. She is not wearing a niqab the the uniform of many isis women. Of course she's now wearing tight black jeans. She had a ball cap sunglasses on. Says she's been going through a lot of change. She's worried about these changes. She's made because there are radicalized women in the camp there are still people who are very strongly supporting isis. And she says that that decision to change the way she looks puts her in danger. She's been labeled in prostate. Yeah and she felt again that the situation that they were facing in that camp was desperate enough that she would take this dramatic step of letting her daughter come to canada with her and being again. Peter galbraith is a former u. s. diplomat described it as a selfless act. And you know all of the women that we spoke to see it. Because i mean you're they're living in this camp and they're sort of part of each part of their identity is affected their mothers. She talked about having to pack bag of her daughter as she left you putting it in her favorite teddy bear rabbit and basically you know she called it sugar coating but you know saying to her daughter. You go ahead. i'll come come later. But and she talked birch sort of swinging between the hope that that might actually happen and despair but knowing that life in the camp is so miserable and and right now so without a horizon that was a chance for her daughter to half alive that she feels that she might not she might be denied. Hoover debate the realistically that they will be reunited. I think she does. I think that yeah. I think that there's still hope alive in in certainly the four women that i talked to. I mean like you said sort of swinging between despair and hope that you know she. She she talked about trying to make amends. She said she joined a de radicalization program. That's available in the camp in saying. She felt remorseful. Because i don't know what i can do to show people. How remorseful i am. You know every bit sort of sense that everybody makes mistakes she. She says i asked her. What were you like when you laugh like how did how did this happen she. She described herself as someone who was quite easily led that her circumstances were almost like she was being groomed. You as she met some money canada who introduced her to this to this earth. Man she married and then came. She insists she you know she committed no crimes while living within the islamic state. She described herself as a housewife and said that actually things have been tougher for her since she was trout transferred to the camps went first to a much larger camp called a whole which has sixty thousand people and and it's a much much harder place than arose which is where we think most of the canadians have now been moved and the syrian kurdish authorities. Say that they've been moved because it's a less dangerous camp in. They're less likely to be targets of radicalization. There at the women themselves are less radicalized than people in that larger camp. Let's take a listen to another canadian woman that you spoke within the camp. I'm talking to my mom. She's the one trying to push things over there. But it's not easy any shove lawyer for me and everything but is really moving and i. I was believing which was like soon soon soon. Things are moving but after three years in a half. I'm just like it's been too long. It's into so when you imagine your future. What are you thinking. Especially in the beginning. I really was imaging like going back and my kids going back to school and having alive going finishing college going to university and going back to life as normal. But i'm actually losing hope when you left canada and you came to be a part of the islamic state presumably. What were you hoping for them. What did you envisage for your future. Okay okay you've heard about the young woman in the camp who managed to send. Her daughter is with the sister s to canada is. How did that make you feel. What do you think about that decision. I wouldn't send my kids. I'm like they've been already through a lot being here. And they were imprisoned the fear and they're still going through right now and i cannot let them go for them. It will be hard for me. Also the only reason here. I'm still coping going any still going on with my day. Every day is because of them once. they're gone. I wouldn't have anything else to do here. And i'm nulla iron of ideas in this age of click bait and on much. Shouting ideas is a meeting ground. People who want to deepen their understanding of the world. Join me as we crack. Open a concept to see how it plays out over place and time and how matters today from the rise of authoritarianism to the history of cult movies. No idea is off. Limits ideas is on the cbc. Listen up or wherever you find your podcasts. I'm speaking to you at a moment of grave. Crisis i'm jeff turner and this is recall. It's a series about history not the ancient past but history. That still hot to the touch. In this first season i explore revolutionary political movement that brought a modern democracy to the brink. You can find recall how to start a revolution on the cbc. Listen app or wherever you get. Your podcasts margaret. That speaks to the despair that you were describing the camp. That's right You know it not interview was interesting because we went through the interview and she said she didn't want to answer all the questions and she's very polite and her kids who are very polite to. She had two kids with her and she you know. She had a pair of glasses on. One of the lenses was broken. And i asked her about that and said oh. That's not so much issue it's can get enough. Need to feed the kids and medicine but at the end of the interview. She asked me she said. Do you mind if i ask you some questions. Of course the question she asked was. Is there any sign that the canadian government is moving that they might be willing to bring us back to canada and i answered her honestly. Which at present. I don't see any signs of that acsc. You know obviously don't know for sure you know. And and she started to cry after after that you know very quietly turned her head away. Didn't want her kids to see that. Yeah let's take a listen to another canadian mother that you spoke with in the camps. You know you. you can't do anything i me. I can't do anything. I cannot. I respect what you give me. They just want. What can i well my kids when she says why. Are you judging my kids. Who does she blame for them. Being stuck in this camp well see she. She blames the canadian government for not bringing them home not allowing the mothers to go home if they do. Send the kids out. I mean there are only two instances. We know of this this this last woman. We've been listening to. She came running towards us as we're about to leave. She'd heard you know they're canadian. Journalists in the camp and she begged us to take a picture of her daughter who was around six who was suffering from some kind of skin lesions on her forehead and send you know. My my child is sick. You know please take this picture. Please show it to canadians that to show that the conditions that are happening here and it's the kids that are suffering. She obviously herself was extremely distraught and seemed you know emotionally exhausted and basically said you know take take me home and if you wanna put me on trial trial. I'll happily do that. But don't make kids pay for what you're accusing me of. Which was a common sentiment amongst the four women we talked to. Do you have a sense as to why. Canada hasn't brought these women and children back to this country. Obviously i mean we spoken about this on the program. It is a politically incredibly sensitive issue. and and beyond politics as well. But what's your sense of it. Well it's it's hard to figure it out. Because i mean obviously the line from ottawa has been consistent. Haven't changed at all. They insist that you know. It's too dangerous to send consular officials to this part of syria. Even though several other nations including the united states have repatriated not just some of their citizens that the wives and the families but the people Isis militants there was accused of being isis members. So you can do it The the syrian. Kurds say that canada was actually the first country to approach them. After after that you know the the sort of the fall of raka before the final act in in in in the islamic state in syria but said in two thousand eighteen canada actually approached him about repatriating not just the the women and children family members fought those a accused of being isis militants themselves. The canadian mint where we think there probably about eight of them. They're kept in them in prisons. And the kurd said it went through this process where wherein they actually were getting travel papers ready documents all of that and then for something changed. The canadian government does backed out. Said we're not doing it and one of the women that we were talking to. You just heard the woman who was talking about You know what she dreamed of when she went home. She confirmed that she was actually can when she was she was taken. She was arrested by the syrian kurds in two thousand seventeen when she was trying to escape islamic state territory or leave her. Her husband was a fighter she says who had sent her on and she was taken to prison and then taken to a road camp for a couple of months and then sent back to prison with the understanding that she and another canadian woman were going to be handed over to the canadian authorities and she said and then something went wrong and we don't know what they took us back to this camp and they've been there since she was one of the first two canadians to be taken to that. Can that was two thousand seventeen and so obviously there's real desperation to get out of the campaign get home but is your sense that those women realistically think that's going to happen. I don't i don't think they know i think they want. It's certainly they're trying as i said. A number of them have lawyers the syrian kurdish authorities. I should say have at the beginning. They were saying to canada. Take every everybody back. The kind of changed their a little bit lately. Saying take the women and children were ready to hand them over. is especially to women. We know for sure that they haven't committed any crimes beyond being a part of the islamic state's through their their family or their husbands but now they're saying look candidate. If you're not going to take your your men back than help us. Set up some kind of tribunal and we'll try them here because we do have the evidence to convict them on that becomes difficult again for canada because they can sickly say. Have you set up a tribunal international tribunal in a in a part of the country what is not recognized as being state so You know. I think there's a long way to go before before. This issue is resolved but the seer. The syrian kurds are begging other candidates not alone and we've we've consistently heard recently the head of the international committee of the red cross saying you must take your citizens. Home in is an unfair burden on this part of the world. We've seen the un secretary general calling out canada failing especially to take the women and children home and criticism by human rights groups of of forcing women to make a decision where they might have to choose to send their children when they know they can't go with them. So separating basically families margaret. I really appreciate hearing from you about this. And from what you saw They're in those camps. Thank you very much. It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me. Margaret evans is a cbc senior correspondent based in london for more cbc podcasts. Go to cbc dot ca slash podcasts.

canada syria cbc margaret damon fareless canadian government al roj detention camp Cbc Peter galbraith london fiji Galbraith Evans federal government birch matt jeff turner Hoover iraq new york
Peter Welch and Peter Galbraith on US/Iran Tensions

The Dave Gram Show on WDEV

1:31:08 hr | 1 year ago

Peter Welch and Peter Galbraith on US/Iran Tensions

"From Radio Vermont. It's the Dave Graham Show on W.. DVD It's your show about the people places and the issues that matter the most to you. Now here's your host Dave Graham. Good Morning Vermont. India's January six two thousand twenty Monday morning and Happy to welcome you to the first Monday morning. Dave Graham show the new decade and we have good show lined up for you this morning. We'll be talking. I with Congressman. Peter Welch Our second guest is this morning in the second half hour we columbine the managing editor of et digger. He's going to update us on some recent Vermont stories and Later on we're GONNA have Peter Galveston a line. He's going to give a little bit of his thinking about what's going on with Iran since this The United States bombing that took out General Sulejmani in in In Baghdad and of course is set off a lot of international consternation and upset and so on but first. Let's go to congressman. Peter Welch shoes on the line with me. This morning congressman. Thanks very much for joining us. Thank you and tell us. First off your thoughts about the The decision of president trump the other evening to or I guess it was the other early. Friday morning may be in Iran. This happened but The news broken evening Thursday. I believe it was About this the killing of General Sulejmani and uh what are your. What are your thoughts about this? It was an incredibly Bad decision now because it is going to compromise already has ask our national security interests the issue you know so the money is not a question of whether the killing was justified. He has been an architect Of these roadside bombs. He's a bad guy. The question is whether it was wise. And what has happened since this Killing is that the goal Sumati in Iran had have getting the United States out of Iraq is picking up steam The Iraqi parliament just voted voted That all American soldiers be expelled from Iraq. That's number one number two in Iraq. There were enormous normal street demonstrations and they were against Iran. The fact is that many of the Iranians particularly the Kurdish In the Suny are absolutely louis outraged Iran Iranian interference and involvement in affairs there. All those demonstrators are now focusing their wrath on the United States. So uh-huh This action the president took on to show. What a tough guy he is has actually set back the progress that we were in the process of making then the third thing on this he he? The president terrip the Iran nuclear deal and despite that Iran state in it for five years and the president said one of his reasons for getting out was fifteen years of absolute guarantee if no a nuclear Iran was too Too Little and now he's short fifteen to five so and every level where you're looking at. What is our national security interests with the president's action? The effect of his action has been to make things worse. Not Better he turned the Iraqis against us He's created sympathy for the Iranians and the nuclear deal even though we got out of it around was abiding by round US now saying they're no longer going to be part of it so I would call all this in extraordinarily bad on wise decision. Well that's that is a Quite a resounding a condemnation I would say and you know and I wonder. Let's let's break these down each one by one because you talked about the The boat in the Iraqi parliament at it say that the United States should leave Iraq That was not the sentiment before corrected and and And I gathered that I mean in the worst case scenario here. It looks like the United States could end up as being really nothing. More than an OCCUPA- occupying force in Iraq for as long as it remains there. Well that's right. I mean we had I mean. Just think about this first of all for president trump when he was campaigning in his early days as president said he wanted to get out of these endless wars. I support him in that. This is dead end for us and his goal was to bring troops home. What did he do yesterday? He sent thirty five hundred more troops to Iraq as has the parliament was voting to kick out the troops. That are there. So the consequence of the president's own action is to defeat his own stated goals just to bring troops home. He's putting him back in and he now has the opposition of the Iraqi government including the prime minister. WHO's made it very clear? He's going to sign I this bill secondly he he's increase the danger. I mean that's how he has his whole boast that this was going to make us safer in that absurd absurd Interview that Secretary Pompeo had where he said this is making a safer. If it's making a safer why are we telling all Americans who are interacting. Come home why are we doing lockdown on Our activities around our basis. Why are we suspending The work that we were doing the justify to fight our presence and that was training Iraqi forces to be fair to fight Isis. If they reemerge so it's truly a reckless Decision where the President Shot America in the foot and if Iraq would retaliate in the way that some of the Say Rattler battle over there are are talking about That would be pretty reckless too. And I'm and it strikes me that there. There is some possibility anyway that they made they may think. Better of of it and say Okay this is a really bad thing. The United States did but we are not going to do it. Do it get into a tit for tat with with this huge in powerful military force. I certainly hope that is the case but think about think about it really. What is the number one objective of the Iranian Mulas? It's the stay in power that's it that's more than to fight Saudi Arabia. It's more than to sow discord interactive main act existential goal for that theocracy is for the most stay in power and they have now been Humiliated as a result of the assassination of what is perceived to be the second most powerful person in Iraq doc so they feel under immense domestic pressure to show. They're not gonNA take it so let's hope they don't you know that's the scenario That we can wish for that. They won't retaliate. But it's very very unlikely that there'll be no a retaliation and they're saying they're saying it I I mean everything they're saying Indicates that they They want vengeance. Yes and and And and certainly you would expect that rhetoric. I mean I just do you think so. That sorta think things through our played out a little bit If Iraq ends up not doing much of anything Iran I'm sorry if Iran ends up not doing anything in terms of retaliation Against the United States. Will this look like a win for trump. It it's not a win. I mean let me go back to something even more basic than this attack. What is the point of the attack? When is the threat that Iran post host poses to us is at the highest order threat to our national security isn't Russia with their interference in our election? with their Breaking International International Norris by taking over Crimea with their hot war in eastern Ukraine isn't China which has been very aggressive aggressive in asserting its power in compromising A lot of our economic Strengths isn't al Qaeda which is not totally gone on our these much more higher order threat to national security so the president by his action is elevating Iran. From what is is they've they're engaged in bad stuff there but it's not stuff that threatens the our homeland as directly some of the things that are much higher order order threats. So what's the what. What is the president? Thank you doing other than asserting itself In by all indications this decision was made in the usual way that president trump makes decisions impulsively It wasn't being recommended by Anyone as being consequential there was no process to start considering. What are the consequences of this action? I mean he has about as much thought going into into a major decision that has implications for the safety of our troops and our country It less attention than Vermonter honor WHO's deciding to buy a new car it. WELL THAT'S A. That's a rather stark picture. You paint there. And I I think that a lot of the facts on the ground Support that contention that that that he's not really He is not really thinking this through. I mean and you mentioned all these bigger your problems for the United States and I mean is there some sense that You know when the when the school yard bully feels like he can't really take on the guise of might. Actually he beat him he's GonNa beat somebody perceived to be weaker. Well that that could be I mean the fact is the president had does. It's not have impulse control this. We've got a situation since nine. Eleven where there's vast power in the commander in chief to act frankly. I think there's been way too much delegation of authority by Congress on this question of acts of war on to the president It's a real real. Oh problem in my view. And that's why I'm fighting to have much more assertive. Congress and re- reclaiming were powers authority. But the reality is right now the president president can do everything in. Does everything from getting us in a war To taking actions like are taking out Sumani. Sumani that are GONNA get us into a war. It's a very dangerous situation now. Presidents in the past had more restraint president trump has none and you know some of the reports. Were that the thing that really motivated. Both the president and of course pound peyot where the attacks around our embassy and that's a legitimate concern. Obviously but the action that the president took it was it was in part because he's watching on TV. What's going on at the embassy? And he he got he got upset. Well being upset it's not part of what president basis decision. The decision has to be cool cool calm and ruthlessly focused on will this enhance our security or not impound peyot. I remember him when he was an incredible bully of Holden Ghazi hearing he was in he did that. We lost that wonderful embassador. We had there in in and several others and that became for a palm peyot and others are just a way to try to really Hammer At at Secretary of State And he was paranoid about having his own Benghazi so they both cast aside both time. PEYOT and In Pitt but the president obviously is the decider here there that's a judgment in cautioned that when you take an action there's GonNa the Reaction so it. This is one dangerous Baotou. It's really emblematic of the way in which our president president with the awesome powers of being commander in chief makes decisions for haphazard feckless way it's it's extremely worrisome. Let me the Go to a caller here. We have actually a couple on the line. Do you mind. We can hear from a couple of Vermont. Jeff from West braintree is on the line. Good Morning Jeff Shaw As Usual Welsh was all tell you the truth and trump has shown a lot of restraint matter of fact the summer There was an oil. Thank our head over there. People injured and he was already to make a strike and his people told he asks is people are will be collateral damage people killed. He said they said yes. There will be any called it off so there's one example that Welsh isn't telling you another thing I just got unless in general Jack Keane and he said this is wait. Overdo this killing Salamone whatever his name is he said for twenty years. This guy's been running around from Tehran to Baghdad Russia back back and forth unimpeded and the blood of many many Americans on his hands. Way Overdue. What do you think well the two things? First of all you're right and it's part of my being upset about this. Trump did show restraint He He after our Tehran was shot down. He didn't act after those ships were attacked. He didn't. We've got some feedback on the call here So the caller is right right that the president did have restraint. It's part of what is so upsetting to me. Where when he decided not to have restraint He went over the top. And then second second. I've heard General keyed respected military person. Sulamani is a bad guy Show I was a bad Guy Mao tse. Tung was a bad guy but a country does not go around taken out other foreign leaders just because they're a bad guy. Our decisions have to be based on will will this action advance or diminish our national security. It's not just because it's a bad guy that we take them out and with with the consequences are right now immediately from this action. Is that the Iraqi. Parliament voted that the United States be out of Iraq that is with Sulamani. Money in Iran were attempting to achieve so in his death as a quote martyr. Sulamani is going to accomplish Ineffective with Iran and he had been seeking to achieve and that is get So soldiers our soldiers out of Iraq. Well let's let's Let's go to another call. Call here. We have Sand from Williston. Good Morning Sam Sam you want US running out of south so maybe the rest won't stand up so tall These the cowboy he does. He's a he's a whip if he does. This guy doesn't have a chance of winning. I any any decision you make. This would have been been gassing if we let them run over the embassy there so we were just GonNa let them run over another embassy. That's that's the that goto place they are from us. In in the seventies they ran over for Ghazi. That was their boys running the show. Here we got you blame that one on a movie. A movie maker Big Ozzy situation where so you know. It's a lot of things here that we as Americans have to understand Friday afternoon. Take everybody down to head Shopper Square and and those parts of the world they understand they understand the thoughts all right. Hey I gotta I gotta run but thanks. Thanks for the call Sam. Let's go to Fred Newbury. What's on your mind Fred? Can you tell me this Do you think the United States will ever have to fool. Rushing chestnuts out of charges fires. I don't no no Fred I How about how about guest does He? No I don't well okay. Yeah you WANNA congressman. I don't know exactly what you're I understand. They're more adversaries. They're not realized. In the old days they were allies. The Sino Soviet Alliance that was China and Russia working together and actually hey this President Nixon who drove a wedge between them With his trip to China. So I don't see Russia coming to the defense of China all right. Thanks for the call. Fred congressman We just have a few minutes to go here and I did want to Cover a couple of other topics here. I mean obviously this one is huge. I I certainly hope for the best year. Well actually let's get one more We got a couple more calls here. This is really like enough. So let's get a couple of other listeners in here bill for more Good Morning Bill. The bill seems not to be there anymore. About Don L.. More and congressman. Good Morning. I think strategically this was a very foolish move any way you slice it but Congressman Congressman. I wish you would get your figure straight on the Iraqi parliament because everything I've seen or heard indicates there were filed less than fifty percent. All the problem is there to vote. They barely made a quorum. And it's certainly wasn't and overwhelming vote to have all the Americans out. Yeah well you know you're right because the people that didn't show up where the Shia Sunni and the Kurdish Iraqis Members of parliament were there. You're in this you know. There's a huge divide within Iraq between essentially the the Shia Who have a lot of Iranian sympathies? in the Kurds in the in the understand that serve not the way you present you presented it as a majority vote of the entire parliament which was not well. Let's get clearly. He's an Animus vote of all the members of parliament. who were there? I mean if we have a vote in the Vermont Legislature in there's a quorum in a scene animus vote then that has the force of law. So I'm in agreement with you that some of those members didn't show up at the effect of that vote note Is that the official position of Iraq is for the US troops to get out in the prime minister has indicated. Actually he supported did this and indicated. He's GonNa sign it now. All of that happened is the result of the decision. That president trump made To Attack General Sulamani by by the way on Iraqi soil. This is a real issue for the Iraqis and think about it Because this just makes common sense. They're worried all of them in Iraq that the US in Iran are going to have a war in Iraq. They're gonNA fight that out in Iraq so the Iraqis are just pawns in this situation. So the president. This action is just so counterproductive to even what he says he wants to achieve. Alright thank thank you for the call. Don I want to Well one more on this one. Let's go to bill and more town to build still there. Yes I'm still here all right Uh Mr Congressman If we don't start stopping them right now and take out their leaders. I realized I said we have a problem in Iraq probably fight on their in Iraqi soil however if they get to Iraq from Iran how are they gonNA fight. Thank you first of all the the issue we've had you. You know in in Iraq it goes back to but I think was an extraordinarily bad decision by President Bush to invade Iraq. After nine eleven Iraqis Jackie's were not involved in nine eleven. It was much more Saudi Arabia so much of the heartache that is occurring is the result of that disastrous decision by President Bush to evade Iraq. After nine eleven fast forward you have I military victory but then you have the Sunni uprising and then following that you have Isis and ironically only when it came to the fight against Isis both in Syria and in Iraq The Iranians led by General Sulamani We we made a deal with them and cooperated when it came to fighting a common enemy the Iranians hey isis. We Hate Isis and we actually fight fight together to accomplish that. So I'm just giving that background to indicate that it gets complicated on some of these decisions you have to make. But the goal for US always has to be the safety and security of the people of this country and president trump in the past talked about this a bunch benches sand over there and he doesn't want us to be an endless wars. I agree with that statement. I agree with President. Trump's stated goal. Aw but what he's done now has resulted in him. Sending from Fort Bragg thirty five hundred more troops to Iraq instead of bringing home thirty five five hundred troops so the concerns you have. I agree with but this particular decision is already playing out in ways that are undercutting. You're cutting the president's own stated goals for no benefit and real detriment to our national security. Let me go to another slight tangent. Here which is is this a ragged dog operation. I mean this is was the one of one of the intents of the president he or do you think Mary to take attention away from certain other issues. Choose including one that starts with a letter. I you know I. I don't want to go there. 'cause I just never want to think that a president any president including this president would ever ever do anything that would put our soldiers in harm's way for political benefits. I think this is just a really really bad decision that the president made. He didn't think it out what the consequences inches were. We know he didn't think it out. He was down at Mar Largo and a normal way to make a decision. That this consequence. It's literally Taking out The second most powerful Leader of a country would be to have the National Security Council Council asking every hard question every tough question every what if questions. That wasn't done at all. Yeah but I mean think about it. Let's think about the practical impact here. which is that even? If it wasn't intentional that the president would do this Edge to take a ten a attention away from the impeachment situation I mean what effect does that actually happen it. It obviously when we get back. There's going it'd be an enormous focus on what's going on with Iran And and impeachment is obviously another major issue but even as we were doing bring impeachment and it dominated the news. You know the when I'm really happy about is that in those last couple of weeks in the house we passed prescription. Drug drug legislation would bring down the cost of the prescription drugs by half a trillion dollars over ten years You know we We we passed the law and got assigned To really crack down on these horrible robocalls Vermont ours are flooded with and they really really hate. We passed in other built on prescription drugs to stop the pharmaceutical companies from abusing their pants By paying generic companies to delay coming out with a lower cost but equally effective products. So even as this will now be another dominant issue in the news. Impeachment and Iran I WANNA focus constantly constantly constantly and trying to do things that are going to help a middle class. It's really struggling with high health. CARE prices with stagnant wages And we know we have to start focusing on climate change. I mean look what's happening in Australia. Hey just one more one more question on the impeachment thing I mean. What's your prediction? When do these articles go to the Senate it it? I think it'll be sooner rather than later. I mean obviously there was nothing the Senate was gonna be doing when we were on the Christmas recess. But you know there is a question here. Sure about Senator McConnell. He's made it very clear that he's handing glove with the White House so he's making it very very clear that he he has no interest in a fair trial. And when I say fair trial calling witnesses getting evidence He basically wants to dismiss. He's saying that quite explicitly and some of But the Republican members of the Senator Murkowski Senator Collins are raising questions as to the basic fairness so I think all of Mr entitled to a fair trial and I think the senators to us that they provide a fair trial already. Well Congressman Peter. Welch show we've covered some hot topics. This is warning. I really appreciate you joining me and take a little bit of heat and a couple of those phone calls. You're you're a trooper for doing that and Freak out we'll have you on again soon. I hope I'm great Dave. We knew about our break here for some CBS News. We'll be back shortly folks. The Warren store is a warm and welcoming oasis. During the winter a woodstove is roaring the aromas of fresh made soups and our daily specials spill. The air to copy is hot in the pastries sprees. Fresh stop by for breakfast before you hit the slopes on make us your operate ski choice to relax and review after a day of fun on the mountain and we have a great selection one of grab and go meals if you can't stay in chat but we hope that you can stick around the warrant store but funky friendly almost world-famous the Newsradio Wd FM and am now back to the Dave Ramsey. Show and we are back in. My next guest is I should say my my my next guest needs no introduction. But that's already been used so Collin mine is the managing editor Vitae. DIGGER DOT Org. And he's getting to be such a regular on the day Graham show which we really appreciate eight by the way that he needs no introduction and colleague Good Morning Hey you have some good stories in the on the digger website today and let's get right to a couple of them one. Is this story that broke yesterday. I guess really about the Brattleboro retreat. What's happening down there? Yeah so it's an interesting development over the the weekend Agency of team services secretary. Mike Smith Who was appointed to the job just a few months ago and seemingly Had Take on one momentous task for the next But apparently the Retreat contacted him and told them that They're going to need two million dollars to continue operating next year. I'm he is loath to provide that money he says that financial mismanagement should not be rewarded or supplemented by the state And among the options they say if they're not able to get this. Two million dollars is Clothing or sort of temporarily or permanently closing bravo retreat. Which of course is Central to Vermont monsters of Mental Health Treatment System Ever since Hurricane Irene of course and the number of patients were moved there and it's really become Rather essential essential to the way that Vermont treats people and sort of handle the patient load But Secretary Smith says that he does not believe in too big to fail when it comes to the healthcare system And that he is currently putting together some sort of strategy to potentially care for patients currently the Braga retreat. If indeed they decided to close goes down over the states to or not to give them this ahlers. I'm also lawmakers from Down in Windham county where Brattleboro is located of course course Are saying that they're frustrated by secretary. Smith's decision they think that The brattleboro retreat You know they wanna see it supported And believe that I. It seems like there will be a bit of a debate going into legislative session which starts tomorrow about whether or not to get the retreat. This money boy. Yeah I I it just feels like. There's a little bit of gun to the head year going on right at the beginning of the legislative session that say we need a huge infusion of state cat cash I mean is that fair or do you think that that that this is a really legitimate to ask here. Yeah well. I am. Donahue's Republican who leaves the house Healthcare who helps to lead the house. Health Committee said that she believes that the Braga retreat has trying to be a sort of trying to build a sustainable model on the back of state. Eight funding So you know there's an idea. Perhaps that this sort of way to the Brattleboro retreat is operating at the moment is unsustainable and perhaps you know this will lead to broader debate about how that's Being done in whether the retreat should be at the center of Vermont sort of mental health care system A- As far as putting a gun to that. I think this is probably you know for folks who have been like you who have been around the legislature longer than me that you start the session with your big asking. Hope to get You know something between zero and that so We also have one of the Accountable Care Organization going into the session saying that it needs something like thirteen. Million dollars in additional Medicaid funding. So you know a lot of big going into the session and then it's On lawmakers of course to decide Who who gets What they need and What exactly they didn't? Yeah it it. It's going to be hard to sort out. I mean a and and and there have been issues around the bribery retreat brew a longtime longtime now. Maybe based ones is just It is I mean I covered some retreat stories during my You know the years of the Associated Press and certainly since tropical storm Irene and I in twenty eleven You know the retreat has been basically a savior to the health A states mental health system And and I mean yeah. I remember Patrick. Flood the former mental health commissioner. Just saying that He's not sure what the estate would've done without without that sort of relief valve having the retreat they're able to take patients From the state system when they maybe would have had nowhere else to go so Yeah and he said it's also worth noting that we're in the midst of this broader conversation about how to expand capacity for mental health care. You know there are these anecdotal stories about people being stuck in emergency rooms for weeks at a time because there's nowhere the retreat is full The Berlin in facility is full and leave no space for sort of Immediate care of mental health needs some people stuck emergency rooms. It was really aren't equipped to handle them. So you know the idea of having the retreat sort of take itself off line Really is seems like you know two million dollars as well worth The cost of what that would take you know. I think that Governor Bill Scott has you know often preached in many different sectors that The state has to live within. Its means and that sort of thing so you know I i. I think there's a bit of message messaging going on here that they don't want sort of facilities to you know. Take the state support for granted. the idea of actually really you know having to move dozens of patients out of one facility to another one you know. There's nothing really to move them to seems like something of an impossibility And it's also worth I've noticed the retreat says that even if they don't get this money they do think that they can sort of find a way out of it so a lot of tough talk sort of on both sides You'd have to imagine that they're going to work out some way to that. Keep their retreat Operating for at least some time until I you know there's plans underway to build new facilities for Uvm to expand some of its ability to take more mental so health Patients so you know maybe in the long term their retreat doesn't need to be Sort of in that position. It's in but you know as far as something immediate. It seems rather unlikely and that it would be unfortunate if something can't get sort out. Hey I wanted to bring a listener in. WHO's been waiting on the line? The Zenia from bury town. Good Morning. Zia High Just a bit of history to go back to the situation in the Middle East This is like the Gulf of Tonkin Matt. Not We get word that. Oh there's been new intelligence BLAH BLAH BLAH which turns out to be pretty unfounded. And so here's senator her Barbara Jordan from Texas talking to President Lyndon Baines Johnson and John he says that he's not art in Vietnam to save his face and he's just thousands and thousands of more people but to save as his But not the actual word that okay so she replies that Being lady she couldn't use that word. What was that part of the president's anatomy doing in South East Asia his nice little antidote? There's thanks for adding that the best way to have American troops not harmed in the Middle East is to bring them back. That would be one one approach for sure. Yeah Okay and the retreat is an abusive pit and always has been and I had a friend that was there. She was badly abused and the stories have come out of there for years they would be better off making making it totally for substance abuse and strengthened and and multiply smaller programs around the state Like one Washington county has in Berry Hospital Diversion Program called home intervention. Yup and The alyssum peer wrong program and in Rochester and there are good little programs went on to state that are not abusive institutions like retreat. And there are a lot less expensive to Well I'm sure that The Human Services folks will be looking looking into those options And and I mean I. I suspect you're feeling a bit of a squeeze right now. So thanks for the call Xenia. Too Good to to A good mentions there and I appreciate you checking in with us Colin Mine Viki or has a a number of other stories. That was one here. That's quite disturbing frankly about a six six year old in cabot getting suspended from school for ten days for a drying. What's going on here yet? We heard from the parents of this child A couple of weeks ago and have been sort of working on you know confirming aspects of their story and sort of understanding what was happening there but you know basically a a Six year old son who's Biracial And has you know. has some behavior issues. It seems You know has drawn on some pictures that you know we're rather frightening to teachers. I guess A picture of apparently himself wielding a large chainsaw with Some other stick figures with their heads cut off and sort of Blood gushing from their neck that kind of thing. So you know rather I don't know how to describe them. Certainly violent scenes and I Guess Teachers asked this child. You know what it was. And he sort of named the stick figures some of his classmates and that kind of thing so the decision was made suspend suspend him for ten days And you know we talked to a lot of folks both lawmakers and Sort of experts and You know school Remedies punishment that kind of thing and everyone seems rather alarmed that Any behavior by six year old would lead to a two week suspension. I'm there's been a tremendous. It's not a research has shown the kind of punishment at a young age and even at an older age It leads to much higher Much much higher. Chances of things like you know dropping out of school of Illegal behavior in the future and that kind of thing so really. The Best Practices are supposed to be to find alternate remedies to work with students to You know in school. Find ways to deal with these types of things And then we requested data from the agency advocation and found that In the past year some eighty First graders have been suspended that in house and out of school suspension. So we're not quite sure. How many of those are the same type of suspension? Is this kid First through third grades some three hundred students so you know schools are really supposed to be trying to move away from the suspension practices. You know any sort of punishment that removes someone from The classroom and from sort of The social fabric of their classes Maybe maybe not happening as quickly as some would like and in this particular case just really harsh punishments for a very young child's And then some mixed messages from the school as far has was happening. The parents you know. The school started to say that there was some pushing and shoving During some sledding outside and that kind of thing the parents said they had never heard anything about it and then as far as they knew this was merely about the The drawing that I described earlier so Rather worrying situation and something that maybe points to some practices that continue on that you know lawmakers and agency in education say. They're trying to get away from well and and it's I I have to note your mentioned of the fact act this student is biracial. the ACLU HAD A had A. I had a really troubling report out a year or two maybe three go. Oh now I've lost track of time a little bit here but Talking about what they call this the the school to prison pipeline. And how You know their major imbalances in Vermont. Vermont's justice system in terms of the What percentage of of People of color end up in Vermont. Prisons versus their overall presence in the population appellation. And so on and they and the ACLU was trying to make the point that a lot of this Sort of extra strong corrective action that people get mm-hmm begins in schools and And so I mean I. Is that become a threat of this story here. Yeah for sure. And that's one of the big reasons why people people say they want to get away from punishments in which Children are removed from. The classroom is because Research shows time and again that The people well who ended up being most harmed or sort of who face those types of punishment most often are students of color and students with disabilities so You know and then you get into the Y.. Of that you know there. There's obviously very complicated sort of reasons why that might be. But the sort of fact is advocates. Say that Inevitably that's what happens and therefore moving away from those punishments is the right direction to go. Yeah I mean I. I hope that during that ten days was well used in terms. You've really Intervening well and carefully with this child and trying to make sure that Whatever whatever was showing up beneath drawings was addressed? I mean there's some there are some psychological problems going on here they clearly need to be Worked with and and You know you hope that That the young person gets the you know the mental health care and all that sort of thing that they don't end up acting Out later on in life in ways that really bring trouble in pain and suffering and all that to people around the kid that neither The principal at The elementary school or the superintendent Talk about this particular case citing sort of confidentiality concerns. The Superintendent said that you know this type of punishment Basically that they they do have the best practices of not You know removing kids from school but sometimes it's necessary that it's done in very rare case by case circumstances But you know the parents of this child told us that It wasn't the first time that it happened that the child is often removed for an entire day and put in a classroom by himself. And that sort of thing which again is really not What most schools? They're trying to do or at least say they're trying to do. These days is So so yeah you know. Always difficult in these types of situations both health and education because of all the privacy the rule of law around it to really understand How the school came about the decisions that made A story that concerned a lot of folks that we talked to and I am not surprised that is a tough situation there and certainly a healthy get resolved in the best way the best way possible The former Southern Vermont College President. This is one of her closed schools Assuming the board of trustees there. What's that about? Yeah so this is David Evans even so as you said. It's the former president of southern Vermont College and Suing Trustees you know the schools closing there's Sort of creditor. They're they're trying to figure figure out how to pay people back out of line people up as far as who gets paid back. I and that kind of thing Evans was pushing to have people who are owed wages ages and that sort of thing payback. I I it. Sounds like The trustees the he he accuses these four trustees of having He he said they loaner cars money. And we're trying to sort of prioritize that as far as the Who who get paid back? I and that sort of thing so accusing thing sort of these trustees are using their position to represent their personal interests over the more general interests of staff and faculty and that sort of thing And it's worth noting this is the second lawsuit to sort of Come out of the closing in southern Vermont College which is going to be sold to a boarding school The Varian School for four point nine million dollars And there was a previous Previous lawsuit lawsuit between leaders of the school as well. Yeah and and by the way the Oliveira in school are they planning on moving to Vermont from their current location in New Hampshire Hampshire or is this like an expansion for them or do you know what what is. What's the deal there? Yeah I think this is an expansion and this isn't going to be used as the core campus is going to be as more of like a sort sort of outing and Sort of extracurricular You expansion of their current campus. I don't think it's entirely clear. What exactly they're going to use it for her But that it's not going to be a separate school or a moving of the school but rather a sort of a separate facility or separate campus is to be used for other types of Classes and that kind of thing I see okay. Hey Of course we have the This outfit called Iran legislature legislature. which is GONNA show up in Lear tomorrow in upcoming legislative session? One of the One of the issues which is going to be up People people tell US early on is is A debate over Further further tinkering with Vermont's marijuana laws and Van Landon had a very interesting story looking at concerns. That when when you legalize marijuana you don't necessarily do away with the black market and Tell Zander Landon of course Reported for digger is doing an excellent job there covering a lot of political issues at the State House so calling in What did what did zander discover here with each passing year? That Vermont does not legalize marijuana. We sort of get more data from the states that have And in this case you know anecdotally we've heard a couple of stories of you know in articles news reports that sort of thing of states finding that they're black markets and this is particularly true in California That the black market. You know. There's this idea. Yeah that when marijuana's legalized the the sort of industry shifts to the you know legal stores and retailers and dispensaries and that sort of thing but that in places like California Cornea. They're finding that that's not really the case that you know. There's the legal market but that the black market continues to thrive And some of the reasons for that The the taxes that are placed on On legal marijuana certainly out of significant amounts of the costs there and then there's also the sort of domination by I some big players and owners dispensaries. which sort of allow them to control the more significantly control the market and set the prices and that kind of thing so that the black market can actually become a more affordable alternative to Marijuana being sold through legal channels so You know this is very much one of the sort of Talking points for advocates And this sort of undermines the idea that you know if you legalize marijuana and tax regulate it that you can can sort of do things like consumer protection You know the idea being that you can test and you can control what sold on the legal market And that that's not necessarily the case that if people people still want to Sort of look to the black market for these products that they're going to be able to find him and of course you gotta you gotTa remember. The black market is is already quite well established. I mean the the networks are out there. They've been operating in some cases for years and they don't really want to go anywhere and so if they could figure out a niche and figure out that they can under price yes What's what's being sold in retail outlet They are probably going to do. That is that I mean. That's sort of capitalism. Isn't it yeah it is And and then it comes down to you. Know why black market continue to thrive. I mean the other state is is more close to New Hampshire Massachusetts. Which of course Just legalize marijuana quite recently recently. I'm they found that. Seventy five percent of marijuana sales in the state Are still technically illegal. So no haven't really put a tremendous it's done in And yet market. Yeah I is to kind of thing that strikes me though that it could change over time. I mean it takes you now. You're developing a whole new legal industry here That would probably take some time to kind of come to develop itself you know fruit come to fruition wishes and actually figure out how to price its products and maybe for the state government to figure out how to you know. At what level can we tax. I mean a lot of this is sort of what the market will bear. And I I don't know whether there is a way to really You know I don't know what the bottom line here is that you'd have to talk to an economics person or or somebody who's who's who's who's who's an expert in retail pricing or. Something Whether you can sorta out compete in or scare away People who are who who've been operating illegally for illegally for your for years and continue to want to do so I mean I can imagine that you could end up with a with sort of two approaches operating trading in in parallel one in which they consumer wants to know wants to be able to go into some kind of a shop and look at the label. And no you know in my buying beer. uh-huh whisky you know that analog in it just in terms of strength and so on wants to know maybe my favorite is You know some brand or another of marijuana that I particularly liked that that high or something like that you know People would have a much better opportunity to sort of know what they're getting getting in in in a retail setting than in than in the traditional street by and You know and and so there's there's a possibility there I mean in heaven knows we have. We have a wide variety of approaches to People who wanNA consume alcohol in in Vermont everything from the State Liquor store to buy a six pack at a supermarket. Do home brewing. You know so And and obviously going to bars and pubs and stuff so And all the all those things on the Alcohol Hall Side of the Ledger seem to operate in In some kind of You know stasis or or whatever they're they're not maybe it's there's there's a settling out process that would be needed here is that is that possible. Yeah I mean I definitely true that it takes time but I think the question is you know. We're sort of in the midst of this debate whether it should happen or not in this sort of a lot of the arguments Being made for why it should happen things. Like it's going to bring a lot of money into state coffers. Because you you know you can put a hefty tax on this and bringing in You know that maybe that's something you want to think twice about that The more you tax the less likely it is that you're actually GONNA shift consumers over from the black market so maybe you want to sort of lower your expectations around how much revenue this is going to bring into the state and then another big thing. That's happened in Massachusetts. Is that very large. Sort of You Know Hedge Fund or private equity type of Concerns have become very involved in buying up different operations despite spy rules and then just sort of keep it there but the more the industry is consolidated. The more you know sort of price points are set by You know big companies as opposed to a Smaller players where there might be more competition and therefore lower prices. So you know it's sort of raising I I. I think you're absolutely right that you know. This doesn't happen overnight. And that you know you you don't sort of Undo an entire black market simply by passing a new law But at the same time I think raises some important points as the legislature is set for you know. I don't know how many years in a row debating whether or not Vermont should have a legal Taxed and regulated marijuana the market. Yeah and and we never. The speculation here is always I I'm a skeptic about speculation is especially in this area. I mean you think about the idea that that all during the debate which preceded making possession of up to announce legal in Vermont is of July of twenty eighteen. There was a lot a lot of worry about what that would do to to traffic safety. well who knew but road highway tallies away down Vermont in the last year and a half since that law win in fact now whether there's any correlation in there frankly I personally have my doubts. But they didn't go up. That's for sure. So yeah and and fatalities. They're down but you know People being pulled over or cited for suspected intoxicated. Driving is up and then again you know. Does that mean because more people are are using marijuana and driving or is that because police are more attuned to it and watching for it to say hard to say. Hey calling my and I really appreciate you joining me this morning. It's always good chatting with you. Let's astute again real soon. Already talk to you soon. Go to top of the outbreak here on the Dave Ramsey show here in Wd FM and am and because they want US frogs. You've got an interesting conversation about the Middle East. Somebody who's spent a lot of time there. It's Peter Galbraith He'll be joining us on the second hour of the Dave Graham show as will a CBS. News correspondent Dr News. Breaking already will be back shortly. Stay with us. The Warren store is a warm and welcoming oasis during the winter under a woodstove is roaring the aromas of fresh made soups and our daily specials. Fill the air to copy is hot in the pastries of fresh stop by for breakfast before we hit the slopes on make us your operate ski choice to relax Refu- after a day of fun on the mountain and we have a great selection of grab and go meals if you can't stay in check but we hope that you can stick around the Warren store but funky friendly an almost world famous. It's the Dave Ramsey show the wgn and we are back continuing into our the second half hour of our program on this Monday morning. It is January six two two thousand twenty and Speaking of folks who see twenty twenty are CBS News. Correspondents are really good in a are out there around the world checking checking into into what is going on in a variety of hot spots and got one of on the line with us this morning Jeff. mccaslin joins us to talk about the situation in the Middle East since Thursday's Thursday's in in actually in Iraq all those who have been directed at Iran. What's the latest we're hearing on all this Jeff? Well David we've seen of course the funeral Qassem Soleimani this radian really senior leader. The military and political figure probably the second or third most powerful political-military figure in the country of Ron and literally hundreds of thousands of Iranians turning out in the street for those particular ceremonies has the body was moved from town to town I and eventually to Toronto and now on to his home subsequently of course you had a vote by the Iraqi parliament over the weekend calling for the beginning of a plan to remove all US forces from Iraq because as you pointed out this guy was killed on Iraqi soil and alongside him was a very senior Iraqi Militia leader by popular mobilization force that sanctioned by the Iraqi military supported by the Iranians sanctioned by the Iraqi military and a former member of parliament and as well we've had Iran now saying that Revenge will be taken upon. The United States obviously unclear what that might be and then finally of course Iranians have announced that they're going to suspend all there adherence to the so-called Iran nuclear deal which could allow them to being reprocessing nuclear material and eventually move in the direction of nuclear weapon. Yeah boy that's that's a scary thought Now in terms of the action by the Iraqi parliament to Say the United States troops. Should it'd be get out of the country basically was that the whole Did did they actually have a quorum. My understanding is that there was a A question about into what degree they were in attendance there that that vote plus exactly right the question. This was a a binding vote by by the Iraqi parliament. But it's interesting to note that the prime minister these acting prime minister of Iraq. He has resigned because of demonstrations that occurred are occurring. large-scale even prior to the killing Solani actually called for this particular vote and suggested that he was strolling favor of the US department. We know in that parliament parliament. There are a large number of parliamentarians who are supported in part of these Shiite militia groups. That were supported by Iran against sanctioned by the Iraqi military and prayers were held on the floor of the Parliament Force Sulamani for that particular vote being taken so it makes it pretty difficult whether or not that. That was a a binding agreement. The United States will then move forward remains to be seen the other development of the weekend is the US military in Iraq as announced a since mentioned mentioned least obvious activities against Isis in Iraq and it's training Iraqi security forces. A lot of that was done by civilian contractors and based on the bench civilians have been told to leave Iraq number one number two. US military forces are kind of hunkered down on their bases fear of you know. Attacks bodies militia groups or perhaps green on blue attacks even by members of the Iraqi military since that was our mission for being. They're training the Iraqi military and if you will continue the efforts it finally destroy Isis. If you can't perform the mission the question of why were there than looms large. Yeah and I mean I'm wondering if to the extent the United States remains there in any fashion really and if the Iraqi parliament's vote is deemed legitimate does that really render the United States suit in much more stark relief purely an occupation an occupying force. I guess I mean we have said if the sovereign country in two thousand thousand three when we invaded we said one of our goals was to create political conditions where a sovereign Iraq and Alexis government. If they have done that they'll be. That might be perfect. There's a sovereign country. They invited US back in two thousand fourteen because of the threat posed by ISIS. And so once again if that sovereign Auburn country votes that we should leave that that puts you in a tough spot unless you hunker down your base independent. And furthermore why are you staying to do what besides sized defend yourself The President of course in response as tweeted out that if Iraq should force our troops to leave the country that he will impose enormous sanctions wins against Iraq for next s for the sanctions on Iran and demand billions of dollars in payment for the basis that we created which again is unusual since this this is a matter of national sovereignty. I I mean it just strikes me as weird. I don't know what in what are the type of human relationship you would go to somebody's country at their invitation Asian and then when they ask you leave You you know you're backing out the door and saying I'm GONNA impose really tough sanctions on you and I don't know it just doesn't doesn't the whole thing is bizarre beyond belief. I guess that's You know it's Day I think you're exactly right and don't forget president trump up here pain in two thousand sixteen on his gold remove all. US forces from Iraq. Yeah he's demanding the fish saying which snake that he and I and I'll tell you I just I have a number of callers here on the show who call in and really seem to support the president matter what he does and they were very friendly to the president's initial Discussions about trying to extract extricate the United States. It's from the Middle East and they were fully supportive of that and Just today they called up and and we're talking about How it's a a really great thing that he's done here? and which seems to get the United States much more deeply into the Middle East so I don't know it seems like You know the president famously said he could shoot somebody. On Fifth Avenue is supported. Would still be with him. Yes he could he could pull off. this This assassination of this general from Iran and his supporters are still with him for sure. So there you go. It's yeah well I think they put this in. The context is important about is killing us. Feel Monte let's be honest no tears. There's this guy this was a bloody bloodthirsty guy who had the blood of hundreds of Americans on his hands for the exporting of implies explosive devices from Iran. They were putting the hands of shed. Yeah Melissa groups back in two thousand six and seven killed. Lots of Americans. Literally thousands of people in Syria and Yemen and elsewhere support. He provided as head of the cush force. I for all the different fighting. That was going on on there but he killing him as a means to an end not an instant. It's tactical success. But the question is is it a strategic success has asked what the end state off the interstate and you only have two possibilities one is. You're GonNa Force your negotiate. Some kind of a political settlement. We're number two. You plan on taking out the regime and toppling the regime. Well if you take out the second or third most powerful political figure military figure in the country they probably think you're trying the ticket down the go And as a result what we've seen now of course rather leaving is dispatched. Three thousand paratroopers to to Kuwait. We're sending a ranger regiment over there. Dispatching Twenty Five Hundred Marines to the eastern Mediterranean. So they're going to be available who sent fourteen thousand additional troops to the region Since may priorities pick your attacks. But it doesn't seem like relieving anytime soon but it looks like we're getting deeper and deeper into very troubled world there in the Middle East. Yeah and the and you know it's one of the things. Maybe you normal Saturday. This is just that president trump might have brought some some people who've been skeptical about his presidency around people. Ah The old time Supporters of peace. You know the the folks who who have been skeptical of. US foreign military involves forever here. Came this president who was doing a whole a whole number of things that probably be bugged. Some of these people. I'm thinking mainly liberals and progressives here now and and even older ones may have grown up going to Vietnam war protests and stuff and you know Cetera And if if he gets if he told them at this stage of his political career. You should vote for me as a run for reelection. Because guys I've done this thing of of of actually reducing the US military footprint overseas I I think he would escort points with people and And apparently that's that's out the window down. Well that's exactly right. I mean you also have to think back to the following question though this. Who's done obsessively because it prevented imminent attack? That was the argument administration has presented. The operative word there for me is imminent well custom. Sulamani was playing in all kinds of events throughout the Middle East attack against American interests. Another Day at the office this guy but he's only he's hardly the guy who's GonNa put in the IUD called the trigger a drop the bomb so I don't see how taking him out stops in imminent attack second of all of course the presidency what we had Intel about this but so far lease administration is then it has nothing in terms that until not only the American public but to the senior members of Congress who WanNa say what was this imminent intelligence and don't forget forget. The United States got involved in this whole region back in two thousand and three of because it really Iran clad intelligence that the Iraqis were making an imminent nuclear weapons the weapons of mass destruction. Yeah we killed forty five hundred. Young America forgiveness kept it usually need sheriff and last night. Of course this is. The president who is acing has been impeached and might want to change the subject number one. This is the president. It really is criticized intelligence community as being wrong incorrect or biased about its intelligence about Russia about its intelligence about North Korea. Suddenly finally this particular intelligence about a quote unquote imminent attack ironclad. Yeah Wow okay. Well I think that that paints it's a somewhat disturbing picture and I guess that's what needs to be painted today. So I I Jeff because I thank you very much for joining me this morning to help us understand sandy's events and we'll be talking soon take care okay you do. We have a caller on line. Rama joins US this morning. Good Morning Rama. Yeah Hey good morning you know we. The United States is spent Is actually somewhere after World War. Want I World War Two is the first war over oil. Actually a good portion of it but since World War since the break-up of the Turkish empire you're right after World War One and they where you ended up with all these a lot of these separate countries and a lot of the destabilization began their political nicole. Destabilization began in that part of the world because of outside influences that I was primarily Europeans and then it became United States in especially especially post World War Two and we had reached a point. Are there President Obama where people were actually looking and saying you know. How can we deal with this as as has a stable area so that we don't have to go keep going on with all these wars and we can start talking with people instead of throwing bombs at each other but The problem is that there's a huge military industrial complex. That wants wars and and you know they're they're they were for some reason. Trump was holding out a rand separate from everybody else for who he would talk to. He would not and and I think a lot of it has to do with Israel but I also think it has to do with that. He needed to have an outlet so that the people that want to build bombs and drop them have a place to do it and they don't care if it's real reasons than when I say they I guess I'm talking about the military industrial complex that people that make the money off of exporting supporting our wars They they don't care if it's a real thing that we go to war for. I mean weapons of imagined. Weapons of mass destruction action and and for dummy Bush and now trump with just you know. Hey I know I'll just go kill somebody on an official governmental trip from one country to another Because he's doing something to us you know. It was a matter if they make this up or not. This is this is about money. Wars about money wars about economics and The people that are going to make the money off of it. Frankly don't care about the pain and the misery they they 'cause and they have a very useful idiot in the form of this of trump. And so this is. This is where this is going and there are people that want to go and drop the bombs and it's going to take a lot more courage and a lot more vision from those of us that say no. You don't get to drop the bomb you get to stop me and Stupid Rama. Thank you for the call. Reshaped it. Let's go to Mike in Northville. Good Morning Mike. Good Morning There are consequences to go into the war especially invading other countries like we did NAM Iraq Afghanistan Syria. I mean you can go on and on we and the consequences of I'm a Vietnam veteran and Agent Orange is done me in and The burn pits are doing our Afghan- Afghanistan and Iraqi veterans It's it's harming them those are the consequences and the cost of medical care through the Va.. Or however we get it it is astronomical and it's It'd be a lot cheaper if if we stop spending money on wars and put it into into healthcare for everyone and Put it into education for everyone. We'd be a lot better off that way and up and listen why I am Mike. I want you to hang on for one because I have a question for you. I'm trying to. I'm trying to balance the the interest interest of the United States in going to war in other words. There's gotta be some upside for somebody and how Rama was just saying. It's big upside for military contractors actors and weapons manufacturers who get to sell their stuff and make money and and and what people don't remember is the downside talk about. I mean you say you say Agent Orange has done you in And obviously you know a lot of people point to Vietnam as a model of the kind of war that was mainly about You know pumping up the military industrial complex and didn't really accomplish much et CETERA. But but the you know when you think about the downside for individuals like you and and as you mentioned burn pits and how sick people have gotten as reload of chemical exposures there It's it's really Just I I think people people need to focus more on the costs and it's difficult to convince the majority of people that because not everybody knows somebody who has lived with the effects of Agent Orange through the subsequent forum awful. Yeah tell it tell me about that. I mean what is what is what have been the health effects in your life of that exposure about eleven or twelve years ago I came down with diabetes. No have neuropathy and I are I've always had tonight us from the artillery and stuff. Yeah hear me I have hearing loss. I I've got Several different things all caused from basically from eight and orange. Yeah and and I mean you know obviously asleep This impulse to want to thank you for your service. I doubt that would even really resonate with you very much. Because certainly your services cost you just so much more than than most Americans are are aware of her or really know about or frankly I think cases care about and that's and that's one of the things that makes this too easy to isn't it doesn't it kind of the fact that most of the public is is is unaware of what you and your thousands of fellow veterans suffer after coming back from on these wars. That does make it easier. Doesn't it when I go down to the Va.. And I talked to. Other guys are affected by Agent Orange. And now these new guys The younger generation affected burn pets. And I see guys walking around with An artificial Olym- That stuff all costs money and you know we could save so much if we didn't go to war for For no good reason World War Two in my opinion was the last war that we really should have been into I. I'm not just talking about the money Mike Mike. I'm talking about the human suffering lives. Yeah I'm talking about whatever your your health effects have cost you in terms of just the physical pain whatever they've cost in terms of damage to your career etc.. We gotta go to our news break here. What Mike I really appreciate the call? Thank you so much. Stay Types Zoya. CBS News upcoming more sponsors back in the day grab show. The Warren store is as a warm and welcoming oasis. During the winter a woodstove is roaring the aromas of fresh made soups daily specials spill. The air to copy is hot in the pastries of fresh. Stop by for breakfast. Before you hit the slopes are make your operates ski choice to relax and review after a day of fun on the mountain and we have a great selection election of grab and go meals if you can't stay in chat but we hope that you can stick around the Warren store but funky friendly in almost world-famous Newsradio FM and am now back to the Dave Ramsey show and we are backing. I'll tell you I love it. Bumps in the road live radio people becoming crazy but I just I say it's it's a little bit like going out four wheel and on the old logging roads in the woods. It's probably less environmentally damaging or whatever and So we we just bump belong here and get to where we need to be. Which is talking with Peter Galbraith? I have been introducing you for a little bit here here. Peter thanks for joining Filibuster your gentleman and a scholar for joining us this morning from. You're you're in Switzerland right. I am and what are you. What are you doing Switzerland skiing good for you? I actually took that guess. I said I said he could just be skiing. He's in the middle of some international diplomatic intrigue over there but he could just be skiing so I'm glad to hear you're enjoying a little Vacation time over there. That's great so Tell me I'm sure you've also been following the news when you're doing your apres ski moments over there And and this attack by the United States. It's on the On the Iranian General Qassem Sulamani. The it's causing a lot of international upset and I know you've spent significant time in the Middle East refresh us on your Your your sort of give us a brief brief recap of the resume in connection with the Middle East. Well I've I've followed the this part of the world and specifically Iraq Iran Syria Since nineteen seventy nine since The Iran hostage crisis At that time I was working for the Senate Foreign Relations Committee where I was for fourteen years then. I had a a little diversion as ambassador to Croatia. But after that as a professor in the National Defense University and then has Somebody who is helping the Iraqi Kurds negotiate defacto independence and the Iraqi constitution as somebody who wrote extensively about Iraq Somebody who went to Iran in two thousand fifteen leading the first trip from Harvard University to the country as somebody who's made fifteen trips to Syria since since the war began Area I know fairly well. That's what we buy and does some some of the actors in many of the actors involved in office What do you think of the of the assertion by the president and his people that Qasim Sulamani was planning actively planning Some mm-hmm attack on the United States or its people or its interests that was Unusual enough to warrant this action. Action is the sexual assassination. Well I I. I don't know the evidence that trump may have had Tools made the decision if in fact they had had any evidence at all. Some of the press reporting suggests that the evidence was pretty thin The United States and Iran have been in hostile relations for a very long time. Although at times they've also cooperated operated They cooperated in in Afghanistan against the Taliban they cooperated most recently in the fight against the Islamic state and Costume Silva meaning so a major part of it now So many in the after the. US invasion of Iraq which brought to power Iran's allies allies US military then went after some of these rainy in allies including the cleric mcdonagh. All solder and Filippini came to their support and guess Wisconsin Wisconsin between Iranian forces or forces that were trained by the Iranians and and US forces all that It's a very big step from there. to the actual assassination the one of the most important figures in Iran. I mean it's a imagine that would be the equivalent of of Iranians assassinating the Secretary of defense the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Yeah Yeah I mean. It was a very provocative action And we have a a impulsive president Who is extremely dishonest? So we we can't really rely on his word now. It might be true but when you keep wanting People just can't rely on well. The president himself self has been very very skeptical. In many instances of the information that has been produced in recent years by the United States Intelligence Apparatus and obviously I would think that if he has any the evidence. That Sulamani was Involved in In planning some imminent attack on the United States where it's interest That that that would come from some of the same intelligence sources. The president has spent most of his Ten in terms of our pooh-poohing right. Well of course he. He steeply skeptical of the intelligence. That suggested that the Russians Played a significant role in his election. although that's the unanimous this conclusion of intelligence agencies he's Skeptical intelligences conclusions. He doesn't like he's also one who's never been reluctant to blurt out national secrets so it does make it a question as to why he isn't sharing the supposed to tell in this case And whether it exists or not It's a separate question for whether it's a wise thing to do to assassinate what one of the most important people in Iran. Obviously it's inviting retaliation I it's just could easily escalate into a full-scale war And then the Trump has gone ahead and made some absolutely extraordinary threats. He has threatened into destroy Iranian cultural site. These are protected by the nineteen fifty four. Hey Convention which makes it a war. Crime go to destroy cultural sites this convention that the United States has ratified. It goes against the Security Council resolution that ah the trump administration voted for on March twenty fourth nineteen two thousand seventeen which again condemned the destruction of cultural monuments and called for the prosecution of people? Who did he has also said after the expenditure of of several trillion dollars and the sacrifice of more than five thousand lives of American service? Men and women That if the Iraqis Ask us to leave. Which of course is their right? As a sovereign country that he will impose more severe sanctions on Iraq Than those that apply to Iran. For what for having a democratically asserted their rights as a sovereign nation a democratic system. Incidentally today's that the US has paid an enormous amount of five thousand flights two trillion dollars to bring it out. You know that that really strikes strikes me as as as something to think about here now when the when if the Iraqi parliament and by the way I guess there are some questions about about the vote in the Iraqi parliament in terms of I guess they had a quorum but they but they did not have the entire body there by any means from what from what we hear now but that's correct correct. They beat the Kurdish members of parliament. boycotted because they actually want the United States forces to remain You they in spite of trump's portrayal of the Kurds that we discussed last time They would like the Iraqi Kurds would like the. US troops troops to remain. They they they while they can't really trust Trump is reliable. They they see that that the US is their only real partner to enable them to survive better than nothing right. But it's quite possible that this will lead to American troops redeployed to Kurdistan and and then possibly the the break up of Iraq. Also the sunny members of parliament largely didn't show up so this was a decision taken by the Shiite members who are about sixty percent of the the population about sixty percent of the members parliament. Okay so it assuming that that we have a legitimate vote in the Iraqi Iraqi parliament saying Hey United States You know we've been entertaining you as guests for a long time now and we would like you to leave. The party is over in the United States. Chooses not to leave it. Are we in affected. That point an occupying force. Well we certainly would be Acting contrary to international law I think the one complication is would be a part of the country notably the autonomous Kurdish region where to ask the US to say in the US where to go there and and that probably is a an action that would then lead to the implementation. Tation the decision of the Kurdish people in a referendum on September twenty fifth twenty seventeen to vote for independence. Yeah that would clearly partition Kurdistan. It would that would now be the I guess effectively if not a danger if they factor of not jury a separate a separate state that would be then hosting a large. US military presence. Is that Right is already defacto. A separate separate state and it does host a significant US military presence If it were to declare independence and and of course if the US were directing now. I said then as a legal matter the US forces could continue to stay there since it would be a decision by sovereign independent. Kurdish staff guided. Niger okay all. This underscores the really very unpredictable ways. In which the story obey develop now. Yeah I mean that's what is One of the striking aspects here is that there's you know people talk about an insufficient planning for say how to end the war after you start one. That's why that may be why we're in Iraq and Afghanistan going on two decades here but Leaving that aside even It seems as though this particular situation with the Sulejmani killing Got Less planning than certainly most. US military actions is that fair. That seems to be fair that that that that nobody has anticipated what the consequences are It it it seems. Is that what what happened. Here was that The the Pentagon behave the way bureaucrats to Henry Kissenger once described the way you get the choice you want is a present the president with three options Unconditional surrender This option a option. NBA The one you want an option. C. Is a total nuclear war. So obviously the president's GONNA choose the option want in this case the killing of Sola Mamie any was the option C. and Trump went ahead and chose that at and then it doesn't appear that there were people in the national national security apparatus who've been largely purged by trump who had purged up to him and to explain to insist on explaining what the consequences consequences would be. an extrordinary. Ignorance here Again I come back to the threat to to destroy cultural monuments which incidentally are not just Iranian but these are the monuments of human civilization on the there are many of them are long pre Islamic. I mean there is a place of Alexander the Great And so you make a threat to destroy them. Nobody seems just to brief the president to say this as a war crime And of course now it's been pointed out and instead of backing down he's doubled out doubled down on saying yeah. That's what he's GonNa do the Secretary of State Who really is not doing his job? He needs to be speaking strongly about this instead. He stuck in the question. Incidentally what people need to understand is that trump is putting American servicemen and women in great danger danger because if if I if trump orders the destruction of monuments which is a war crime MHM that is being illegal order and those who carry out and illegal water order are themselves responsible for the crime. And so you've got put American servicemen and women then in the position of having to choose between an order from their commander in chief and they'll bang the law. Yeah that that is a the Obviously sort of the classic difficult position into which to put anybody in a military situation you know and a- and what is your expectation dare. Do you think that there would be some kind of a a rebellion at that point among the troops. Well this of course would presumably in order to to to The Air Force to carry out bombing raids on these monuments young cultural monuments sprayed very Whether there would be resumed. I hope there would be resistance or refusal so from the top leaders of the military and out the air force and from the pilots. You have to imagine you know supposed to You had a presidential order to to gun down a hundred children would would a soldier actually carry that out. I I don't think so I I mean I. I think the training that we have indicates while the the president's the commander in chief that he is he does not have the power to make an illegal order and this is clearly clearly something that's illegal. Yeah boy that would that. and to hear the the president's rhetoric about this as well Sulamani killed some people and therefore you know I mean it sounds like these are just you know religious icons or whatever the is housed in various cultural locations. Shins that he's talking about here as in they're they're they're less important but But but that that that really does raise some very the very Tricky issues and and I just wonder I mean again. Nobody knows how this is GonNa go play Apple. Let me ask you about one possible. We'll scenario I'm not saying it's a strong possiblity but Brighton. Quite frankly one that I think a lot of us would prefer which is that. Iran looks at the situation. Now and says You know they've poked sticking our I we are going to Stand down because we don't want to mess with this immense military power that the united any state possesses and they don't really retaliate Any chance of that. There's a chance of it. The the smart strategy for the Iranians would be to to to appear to be be reasonable party against the unreasonable unreasonable. Donald trump not to take action to Reach out to the Europeans and and You know insist that they not not in the they stop the that they get their companies not to follow the American sanctions and to in every way. Take out you know to to to operate on the hope and the expectation that Donald Trump won't be president of the United States A year fifty four weeks from now And and sort of to to last it out. They in fact have lasted under these extreme sanctions for a couple of years so Another year wouldn't be that severe that said you know. Iran has politics just like the United States and so you have sweeter so they have vowed revenge The you know the we trump has united the people of Iran that gets the United States. Instead I think I think when I was there in two thousand fifteen it was one of the most pro American places in the world And even though there are many Iranians who despise spies the government and the regime. You know they're now rallying around So if your leader especially if you're a hard liner and you've pledged alleged action. Can you then do nothing. That becomes politically very difficult. Even F strategically and logically I it it would be better to do nothing so I think it's possible that that scenario will play out. I don't think it's like yeah. Of course you yeah I I just sort of trying to game out all of the different possibilities here and and I I I my sense of it is just from what I read in here. Here on You know in various television and radio reports is that is that it is unlikely for Iran to do nothing What's what's in their arsenal? I mean what is I What should the United States expect there? There are many many things that they could do All I have unconsciously assassination is a game more than one side can play They've been clear that they will not target civilians They have said that they will. Target American military targets Which of course in in wartime are legitimate legitimate targets? You You know I am. I'm facilities around the world and and in the United States But probably the the biggest thing they can do is to is to do. What is exactly happening right now? which is to force the United States out of Iraq to create a situation in which after more than five thousand dead servicemen and women? You know another twenty thousand listen. Severely wounded two trillion dollars in the United States is humiliated and forced out of Iraq And that You know that that may be that that would probably be that certainly much more substantive and a from an Iranian point view much more significant chief than any individual act. But again I I you know there are lots of things that country can do that. That was I mean that the idea of the United States being forced out of Iraq would certainly solve The Iranian leadership's Problem with pressure and so on but He Peter Galbraith. Unfortunately we're about out of time here in this segment of the day gramshop. I really appreciated joining me this morning. From Switzerland I want to get back to your time off. Enjoy that. Thank you so much great talking to take care we're going to Go to the top of the hour and the end of the day Graham. Show here for this Monday in the morning. Thanks so much for joining US folks to now for Bill. Bill Sayer Common Sense Radio and join us again tomorrow. For another edition the Graham show every day everybody.

president Iran Vermont Iraq United States Iraqi parliament trump Congressman Dave Graham Parliament Middle East Peter Welch marijuana congressman Congress Saudi Arabia Dave Ramsey Jeff Shaw Baghdad Brattleboro retreat
October 14: Bar-none

As It Happens from CBC Radio

49:09 min | 2 years ago

October 14: Bar-none

"You Welcome to party lines this is the podcast where we're going to try and get you up to speed on what's happening for the federal election a new episode every Thursday Yeah Hey I'm Rosemarie Barton and I love politics you don't possibly mean that elevated mood tonight tweet about politics but I don't want to this is a CBC podcast Hello I'm Carol off and I'm James Murray this is as it happens the podcast edition they gathered in Barcelona by the thousands many chanting in protest some held up signs others waved cattle being persecution in Syria tonight he celebrating his right as a newly minted Canadian to vote next week's federal election at last report Iowa newspapers struggles to continue doing investigative work after it's accurate reporting about the life of a local police officer leaves them swamped in legal costs looniest flag protesters at the airport clashed with police that was the scene today after Spain's Supreme Court sentenced nine Catalan separatists to jail tonight Dr None Kurds have little choice but to team up with the dictator Bashar Al Assad first past the post and we I reached our guest he was a refugee for sedition the sentences ranged from nine to thirteen years for their role in the two thousand seventeen push for independence lower boras is a member of the Spanish parliament I have a referendum on separation when the enemy of your enemy was once your friend a former US ambassador says that after being abandoned by Donald Trump series got to be a yarn behind this we call up a woman in the outer Hebrides who made an eight hundred kilometer trip to recover a lamb that she'd raised for sale only to regret having sold him and stemming the tide police in London come face to face with a colorful bunch of climate change protesters news and ended up arresting one walking talking stock of Broccoli as it happens the Monday edition radio that's waiting for them to produce the evidence but why does it come as a surprise given that the the Constitutional Court of Spain your your courts have been saying that the referendum that was held in on separatists swamped the streets and what our guest calls and unprecedented display of outrage over a Spanish court's decision to jail the leaders Catalonia was illegal and these people broke the law so why does it come surprised they concluded this because to voters not illegal alona descended minutes ago what was the mood in that place we are very very astonish and very them to do so what they have now received is a sentence basically because they allow people appointed because we receive these failed from supreme court the Farag as A totally just with the Together for Catalonia Party we reached her in Barcelona earlier today Baraza understand you are just returning from the demonstration in Boston the referendum he's not it's not a penalty on on the on the Spanish constitution so what our politicians did a- and that always acted in strictly democratic and absolutely peaceful manner was to actually did what people as nine of the leaders to jail sentences from nine to thirteen years they said that those leaders many of them politicians today's and so people is how sad haffey retaliated and is trying to demonstrate for the right add the Spanish state uses justice uses revenge in fact they want us to stop feeling they are the result of political trial and we are suffering a wide-ranging compaign of legal action against Catalonia's right action that is delayed and so that has to be punished with a century of jail century opting for all our government so this is absolutely unfair and they felt that they did the right thing and they asked this being Roy independent and so we have to keep moving forward you have these nine people facing these jails devote and to have the right to decide their own future and PACIFICA and Democracy Kuwait Spain Supreme Court has sentenced in a long time in prison at this point for the role they played in bringing this referendum into into Catalonia so I I is there so when we receive violence and now they are accused of penalty that is not even in in many arms the former Labor minister twelve years the former external relations minister twelve years the former speaker of the Caughlin parliament eleven just have the nation and against independence movement so the sentence is like the final point they would like to be the final point but now we what do you say to that well we we reject those various we consider them unjust and we consider them anti-democratic because that was Spanish politician Lower Boras we reached her in Barcelona earlier today It countries like the penalty of sedition. They know that they are not seditious they know that they were fair to what people wanted and happened with our president with President puts them on that had to be the German justice who decided that he's not guilty aw aw with a week to go before the polls a and P. members of government that they carried out a perfectly planned strategy to break the constitutional order and obtain the independence of Catalonia illegally not of what now there on his colleagues have been declared guilty and so they are absolutely and and a half years I know you have been to visit some of these people in detention what what is your state of mind at this point yes if you did them every week tea and with solidarity we were able to to repeal and unjustified am believable attack by Spanish police and security forces why they voted them for so they feel they are still convinced that they did writing and they asked us to it forward straightening for our rights human just as one the man who is the former territorial minister of Catholic they they are they're facing more than ever we stand by their families we stand by their side and more than ever today we feel that we have to keep moving he is an author and Lgbtq refugee activist and we reached him in Vancouver. Danny what was it like to walk into that booth and cast this Boras we will leave it there and I appreciate speaking with you tonight thank you thank you very much thank you very much bye-bye you welcome now that they ain't got lonely and before when they were in Madrid and today I had the chance to talk with Dr Roy One of those Ramadan Mr Ramadan came to Canada from Syria as a refugee in two thousand fourteen and on Friday in the advanced polls he voted for the first time the democratic process as well as back my birthplace of Syria where people might people might community were fighting for had a close encounter at that time was yes my my fiance went for his voting so I decided and you recourse can they appeal nano they cannot appeal is the Supreme Court than they now and only appeal to a European Justice that is what fair we have to express that PACIFICA and democracy going with the votes and that's what we want to do and instead of that word in those politics because I see an eye so firsthand what it means to be in a place where my voice is not heard I mean and they were Absolutely convinced that what they did never has to be considered does federal leaders are busy fighting to get out the votes but for some new Canadians just having the opportunity vote has been a fight new Canadians like Dan how that happens it is important to me because I felt envious I have always since the day I arrived here in Canada I have been quite a engaged in understanding the politics of the word around banks it was important as well to me to to have my voice eighty it is really important to me because it comes from a to appreciation both minute home here in Canada where it allows me to be part Vince because you see all Catalan society knows what happened on the first October the first and we remember with a deep emotion how with dignity all were to obtain what we're fighting for but because we are fighting in democratic way and if the law is governor gas to to the deal keep with with people and being in the streets with people this fright for nine years now and dying for that right as well gusts and now you you were there for the British Columbia election in two thousand seventeen at your ballot for the first time as a Canadian while honestly carol was it wasn't overwhelming feeling to be honest I stood behind that barrier democratic process which is something that I believe that you and I have been hoping to be able to do since since I knew what politics are you're dancing in the streets have yes I remember that in two thousand fourteen when I when I spoke with you I was just getting out of the Canadian it bothers me. Honesty is a bit offensive to me when people say Nam votes because you have a privileged that a lot of your grandpa there was a journey a beautiful journey but also privileged to me I've seen my life and how it could go in such a horrible way back in two thousand fourteen but then to see in Beirut where they informed me that my application has been approved to come here to Canada so I was quite excited yes so what they look at that I honestly feel that I have been given the opportunity to gain so much privilege and I am I am so thankful for it and so thankful for the responsibly adoptions that we have might not always align with with what we hope for but the only way that we can be accounted for in those elections civil rights I saw firsthand how fleeting democracy is and how it can it can disappear any second and be taken away right from that moment then we spoke to you then you're going into vote what does that what does those years represent what does that what what has been the development for Danny Ramadan I left leaning politics continue to be the power driving Canada because what we see on the rights has been quite a challenge it's boring or they forget or whatever so what would what would you say to them those very large percentage maybe thirty percent of eligible voters who didn't bother to cast the I'm taking a pull myself just like voting you also know that a lot of your fellow Canadians don't vote at all the other can't be bothered her and I I looked at the needs on the pilots and honestly there were Berea bids I was so excited it is the first time in my life that fades in earns fault for you to have you have a privilege that people around the words right now aren't dying for like back in Syria five hundred thousand people died just because I believe that I matured quite a lot in the past five six years coming here to Canada becoming the person that I am today of course it was informed by a lot of the uh-huh in Vancouver Oh you are participating in something so unique but there's also in this election campaign the politics of identity is played a large part mostly at because out in the last federal election would you tell them if you could I I would say that I know that elections can be intense and scary and that the in two thousand eleven we went out asking for democracy so I would say that the ticket advantage of that privileges ten minutes of your time fifteen minutes of your time reports of a social structure that is welcoming and inclusive and I don't think the right has been embodying that lately specifically with campaign does that affect you and others who are here this election campaign has had such a tinge of racism to it it changed for the better and iphone myself rights here and I am now a Syrian getting Deon I'm a successful author I am a participating member of my community we spoke with you I am I respect you back in twenty fourteen and you and Lebanon then and you had just learned that you would be coming to Canada and Emergency Call Fort Worth Resident James Smith made to police in the early hours of Saturday morning Mr Smith says his intention was simply for police to make sure his neighbor was safe alive next week right yes indeed I'm getting married to Matthew on Friday the twenty four th well big congratulations student thank you very much he resigned today as the police were forced to fire him speaking to reporters today Fort Worth Mayor Betsy price says her heart goes out to Ms Jefferson's family and in quite homophobic quite a racist and does not values when I swear to be Canadian is fire to have is fire to be I personally voted for Brin let who is the local candidates for the MVP in Vancouver Centre it is important to me that the into James Smith the neighbor who phoned the police I know you're hurting today as well you called place as we ask good neighbors to and on that subject to have rights I understand that not only did you get to vote as a Canadian for the first time this week but you're getting married to the man since family she had been playing video games with her eight-year-old nephew when she was shot through a bedroom window the white officer who fired the shot is under investigation theonest Dan has left you totally shaken and your sense of security and trust in law enforcement jeopardized and I'm sorry instead a Tatyana Jefferson who is black was shot and killed by one of the officers who responded to that call according to a lawyer for Miss Jeffers it's only separated roommate seven three with the address I'm calling about my mayor wherever front doors have been opened to Akihito's nephew who witnessed the unspeakable loss sorry doesn't cut it. The entire city needs to surround the young man with prayer support and anything that his family needs betsy price is the mayor of Fort Worth Texas were twenty-eight-year-old Tatyana Jefferson Now should be gone for him but he's not reacted in that manner he's helping me to be strong and I believe that's because my sister had a bit part I was shot and killed by police over the weekend according to Ms Jefferson's family she was babysitting for her nephew Zay on when police arrived at her home Meli mclane is used to raising and selling her lambs but in September the a wonderful neighbor the one that we wall want next door to us the type of person who does what's right in Fort Worth join him and he was like why I would just go and like put my name in this and I would be about it I'm like no I I actually would like to go and see how that mm amber car is the sister of Tatyana Jefferson who was shot and killed by a police officer in Fort Worth Texas over the weekend doug meet sing is a candidate who has been confronting that head on isn't he and and issues racism have rear its ugly head during crofters had a tough time partying with one will the guy in particular who she called Norman after MS McLean sold him at a local market she had a change of Heart Andrew Scheer and a lot of his political tens be about a women's rights gay rights in his stance regarding immigration reached her in Benbecula Scotland Melania what made you so attached to him I mean you've raised a lot of lamb so what was it about Norman account put a finger on it to be on this but he is a very affectionate lomb nobody as they get older they become a bit more independent distance yourself from them but I don't know what it was was norman he just he for you then to sell them off to those who are going to make them dinner right yeah I run a small cross team myself and my husband Hobie froze the to have enough teeth really to feed to Lam's so I just made this decision to remove him from the mother because he wouldn't have made otherwise in through t it had been but at this time he's my motivation and he's mind biggest encouraging in the middle of the night when I'm crying experiences being back in Syria being refugee Libanan and then becoming here Canadian and in January two thousand nineteen and he told me because the police had killed his has shot his and at that time new nothing about that so he was the one who actually told me when he wakes up until me breathe in my nose and mouth he holds me he hugs and these and I've just got used to doing that you know that's just what we do when you told what went through your mind what affected that having it was the same as all the other lamps make sure that he had everything he needed a head of under a heat lump for awhile and had to feed him by a stomach tube delighted obviously when he made it through and why didn't he I was just so attached to him it wasn't like the rest of Milan's totally was he was more like a dog but silly way I can describe it really at what point did you realize that you had made after every day to him and eventually he said we just please phone them and find out where he is how did you find him well nobody know who my lungs are sold to three speaking at a press conference today Zion's mother amber car said her son is the one who told her her sister had been killed the first time Ooh I mean Oh this me selling my other Lam's but I do tend to manage to get over it with Norman I had the dilemma before I even went to the the ocean motte with him Cassini him and pick him up from a facility for children the person told me was he was said and I asked him why was he said can get it wherever you get your podcast from I don't know how we're going to end it out can we literally drop Mike Mistake and you had to go and find Norman I mean I wasn't very happy on the day but your head sometimes overrules your heart in these situations immediately I wasn't whether to take him or not because he was on his own and he hadn't really mixed with the rest of the flow I wasn't sure really how he would be with other lum's when he goes away it's ten o'clock and I haven't seen anybody moving around it's not normal for them to have both of the doors open this that's part of the non really appreciate it Carl thanks for speaking with us by of course by Danny Ramadan is a Syrian Canadian voted for the first time this election he field of seven hundred Lum's on a seventy five acre field which is a bit like a needle in the haystack but she says you're very welcome to come and find him and help out far away with the AH I was really surprised dot she said I fully understand exactly what you're saying Todd Pat Lam's myself in the past and is a struggle don't worry about it daily thing is he's into fee mother feed him well he was one of triplet some when he was born he he was very weak he couldn't stand support zone heads choose paying attention to the than another five hours driving when I got there they welcomed me with open arms to be on this topic very grateful on the show me where the field was it was an awful day raining because I had willingly sold him and it just seemed a bit strange owning them back and say Columbus what did they say well I mean she was so understanding happy about it I was talking to my husband by two afterwards and before you know after about a week I should be okay tying went on an adventure I just said I'm just not getting over this I was talking about auction lots and Monica get a phone number for the farm an iphone fund him and got his wife on the phone and I was a little bit embarrassed if I'm honest don't she enjoyed a cuddle just wasn't about sued for him he enjoyed affection and you know I gave that too in abundance which he enjoyed and yet especially blonde with him because the farm so we have twenty feet I know the mole individually every year it's the same thing for me I I normally celebrate twenty-five blonde you kept him alive didn't you and he was born yeah he will he wasn't very well tool when he was born he wasn't sure whether he was gonna make it but I was with him for forty eight hours rarely rains cloak uh well it's well it's probably about five hundred fifty miles even forty miles which to me is seven hours journey to get the two the two hour boat ride uh-huh lying around and none of them looked like my norman but I noticed there was a little suffolk lamb lang by itself with the little tag on the item in the field and my heart just sunk because I thought it was gonna be hit hours I'll be lucky finding three drove into the field and there was all these little for more C._B._C.. PODCASTS GO TO C._B._C. Dot C._A. Slash podcasts dead seeking protection they have aligned themselves with the president of Syria Bashar Al Assad whose forces have now entered the Kurdish held territory for the first time in Ed Lamb Norman we reached her in Benbecula ears. Peter Galbraith is a former US ambassador and democratic state senator who has worked as an advisor to the Kurds he was in Townsend Vermont this together choice when Donald Trump gave a Turkish president air to on a green light to invade northeast Syria today as Turkey continues its invasion of north eastern Syria Kurdish forces are fighting alongside a new why not the Americans who have been there partners against Isis for the past four years and who yesterday announced a deliberate withdrawal over the coming days and weeks and with what do you make of the news that Kurdish forces have struck a deal and are now working with Syria's President Bashar Assad they had thanks bye bye Melanie McLean raises lambs in Benbecula Scotland she traveled more than five hundred miles by ferry and car to retrieve her the turned into food and so what is it about this one do you think he was just very affectionate he wasn't simply crude motivated they had the Syrian government which they had never fought and so they entered into a deal with the Syrian government for Syrian forces to come to the border into some of the main else but at least for a period of time the local Kurdish administration will remain intact we spoke with a Kurdish leader last week asking this question Shaw asset is recognizing it is part of the agreement and agreement will include discussions on autonomy for the Kurdish area and they would strike any kind of deal with Bashar Assad and he acknowledged that it's been a brutal regime killed hundreds of thousands of people craddock forces that number about seventy thousand will become part of the Syrian army they will have their own command structure and they'll still be the people in charge never get complacent about them on this occasion I it was the right thing for me and we would have traveled to get once you make that decision you just have to go with it ownership loss if you ever write your memoirs you'll have to put that in because that is simply astonishing I can't believe he's come to yeah I was upset you delighted running to me you know like a bullet I just couldn't believe it a night just crouch down on the gave him a big Hug Oh I was crying most overwhelms unveiled but of course they know they can't trust the American Center Donald Trump what role are the Russians paying because they're being cautious in their language aren't they because they certainly he said that they would do that enter into some agreement if they thought that their democratic rights would be respected is there any chance that that is what which at and finally this was a deal that was brokered by Russia so the Russians have some interest in ensuring that so yeah happy ending phenomenon a happy ending for me who had a great story Melanie thank you so much you're very welcome thanks for the interest could good night I would imagine do not want to enter into conflict with Turkey what role is Russia actually playing well Russia did play the role in brokering this I just won't let my head will my heart from they will and I think the selling of alarms on my cubs is has always been a struggle for me and I don't want that to change in because Syrian army and the Turkish army and this could draw in the Russians in support of their Syrian ally Kurdish rights also one has to bear in mind that Assads forces are stretched pretty thin so although the Syrian the Kurds had no ally and so on the one hand they had a Turkish show military that was attacking their main population centers and on the other side agreement which does bring Syrian troops to the border so there is of course the possibility of clashes between the did actually involve or pull in other members of the alliance the US Secretary of Defense said that Turkey wasn't much and if he heard the door opening you just head up near the skates just waiting for us to go over and say hello even when we finished bottle feeding him he was doing that the price that we manage to get into quickly how did how did the other farmer reactively saw this reunion he used the woods himself he was astonished out she said to me lots an ally trump has been readying sanctions on Turkey and there's bipartisan legislation in the US Congress and the Senate by Senators Kris van Turkey will remain a member of NATO and indeed perhaps about the future of NATO ironically there to US allies in this conflict all in Lindsey Graham to impose severe sanctions on Turkey so actually there's in my mind question about whether in fact my understanding of what is going on is that there's a chaotic withdrawal of US forces The Americans tried to pull out with forget that Turkey is a NATO ally so at what point does any of this especially if Russia is in some way standing off against Turkey at what point does she generally loved my company I loved his company you know I I sometimes he sits in in his field and he'd come and just lay beside me and I just be stroking his hades and so yeah he's he's settled Buchan straightaway he's behaving like a little spoilt lamb newman it's all goods you learn lessons in life and and trump's decision may cost the United States both allies of course there's always suspicion that trump's goal has been to get rid of me the Kurds who fought along the US against the Islamic state and Turkey which has been a member of NATO an American ally since nineteen forty eight I five from South Vietnam when the US failed to support its ally the South Vietnamese and the country was turned over to the enemy here too new Iraqi Kurdistan in a certain way this reminds me of another chaotic exit that is an April nineteen seventy they've pulled back but they're still there and in the line of fire more or less so is there any role that those forces are still engaged in president trump's decision to withdraw American forces from that region and he said that he was committed to ending endless wars American adversary the Syrian government backed by Iran and Russia the reason the motivation for what has triggered all of this is the Assad government will implement it now what am i Kurdish friends said to me he said well I worry that we we can't trust the Russians Tom he set us much at various times and whether intentional or not that may be one result of what he's doing now are still US forces in the region by pulling those troops out do you appreciate that position at all well I appreciate the concern about endless wars but against it so it was not America's endless war aside from the presence of the one thousand troops who were in really quite safe it does nothing In Norman been since he got home he's been great he's getting a little of attention as you can imagine let to his feet have pink

president Syria Bashar Al Assad Donald Trump Catalonia Fort Worth Texas Ed Lamb Norman US Peter Galbraith Danny Vancouver Tatyana Jefferson Benbecula Townsend Vermont senator advisor thirteen years twelve years eight hundred kilometer forty eight hours seventy five acre
434: Nick Hinton

Duncan Trussell Family Hour

1:39:02 hr | 5 months ago

434: Nick Hinton

"Rivers south of the plan all flowing into the sea philip natural resources such essentially walking hand hand when we reach the listen to fusing to the tiny rain of man for sure is growing burned. Not mistake folks. this is peter galbraith. The ceo and owner of bp that stands for british petroleum. You might be surprised to hear that we oil executives actually love nature and night. We cry cry to make sure you like us again. We've decided to put on the biggest musical festival. Your world has ever known right here in glacier national forest well used to be a national forest but thanks to a loophole. We bought it last week. And now it's a private forest that we would like to invite you to visit with your friends and family. And here's the best news of all you don't have to pay for anything we'll fly you out. And every guest will receive their own. Metallica inspired all-terrain vehicle to drive around the national forest. All we ask that. You allow us to chemically sterilized. You at the gates. It's completely safe. I hope you'll accept our apology. And remember gas will make it grow. Gas will make it grow gas. It really will make it grow. I wanna thank bp for sponsoring this episode of the d. t. f. h. And i invite all of you to check out. Gas will make it grow dot. Edu that's the website for this big festival. That's coming up. Glacier national forest. Lot of huge names are going to be there including dairying the prancing lad. I think he's going to be performing. And i'm even going to be there Working out my one person. Show the second to last temptation of christ. It's really fucking intense. And i hope you'll come out and check me out plus we're all gonna be fucking according to what is Bp executive said and because they now own glacier guests like they've figured out a way to make cocaine and heroin legal so those are all going to be supplied thereafter. You get sterilized. You're going to completely blasted on blow or free and injected with some really great high-grade heroin which he described as touching the teats of god herself. So i'm really looking forward to getting blasted nodding out with y'all getting sterilized together. And then enjoying some great music and lots of family fund and. I hope to see their greetings friends. It is idea true cell. And you're listening to the doug trussell family. Our podcast and today's guest is amazing. He's an author. He is someone who is extremely talented. When it comes to expressing some of the cutting edge ideas that happen to be floating around the underground. And i'm a big fan of his twitter because he puts out these threads about some of my favorite topics such as aliens. Hollingworth alternate dimensions. All the stuff i love to think about. And somehow he manages to do it in such a concise and consistent way that he doesn't seem like somebody who has been doing too much nitrous oxide on tour with fish and that's a rare talent only a few people. I'm aware ever able to do that. One of them being george noory for example are bell coast to coast. I know. there's some controversy with noreen bell. I don't care. I like them. Both that was one of my favorite things to be driving through the desert night on some long road trip. And then somehow you get lucky enough the ear radio tunes in to coast to coast and suddenly you're hearing some of the wildest ideas that you've ever heard in your life. Do you necessarily believe them. No do you believe that. Maybe there's back vampire people flying around the desert. No that would make your ride incredibly terrifying but if you allow yourself to just slightly believe it then. It's going to make your ride a real joy and nick. Hinton is a master at professing some of these ideas without editorializing. You're mixing politics with it and that makes for some riveting content that will give you crazy fucking dreams if you make a terrible mistake of diving into some of the rabbit holes. He opens for you late at night. We're gonna jump right into this eerie conversation with nick hinton but first this is there something interfering with your happiness. That's preventing you from achieving your goals. Like i don't know maybe your entire planet is experiencing a once in a century pandemic. And you're not really sure if you should leave your house or not. Better help will assess your needs. That's h. e. l. He will assess your needs and match you with your own. Licensed professional therapist. You can start communicating and under forty eight hours. It's not a crisis line. It's not self help. It's professional counseling done securely online. 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Better help wants you to start living a happier life today. Just go to their website. Check them up. Read the zillions of testimonials from people who've benefited from this service and then check them out by visiting better help that's ag l. p. dot com slash duncan to join the over one million people who have taken charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced professional in fact so many people have been using better help that they are recruiting additional counselors in all fifty states. This podcast is sponsored by better help. And the duncan trussell family. Our listeners get ten percent off their first month. A better help dot com for slash duncan. Thanks better help. What back before. We jump into this episode. I want to invite you to go to my patriot on patriot dot com slash d t f h and allow yourself to be convicted into the sacred holy cathedral. That is our patriotic community. Some of the most brilliant beautiful sweet compassionate folks are hanging out there and they're waiting for you to come home to your family even better instantly get access to commercial free episodes of the dt f h. That's right you will no longer have to be troubled by the trembling finger of capitalism inserting itself into this podcast. But you'll be able to listen to hard core uninterrupted free base level episodes of the d f. H if you subscribe to the video tears you can hang out with us every week. We have a weekly meditation called journey into boredom. And every friday. Friday family gathering. Join your family. Take the deep dive into the holy waters of this podcast. Come home now and again. I have nothing to do with that crazy thing. That's happened with all the animal attacks around the nation. And i don't know why people who are subscribers to this patriot on seem to somehow be avoiding these vicious brutal and sometimes scarring and disfiguring attacks. I don't know why. I have nothing to do with it either way and i have a couple of attorneys who want to read this. We are not responsible for any animal attacks. And we're not not responsible. In fact we cannot confirm or deny any involvement in using a hypnotic device that controls organic life forms as long as they're under six pounds. Okay there i said it jerry. So there it is. The point is you should head over to patriot dot com forward slash d t f h and subscribe. Keep your family safe and keep yourself safe and that that that's just a blanket statement that has nothing to do with animal thing patriot dot com ford slash. Dt f h. I'm not threatening you at all. Patriots dot com for slash. All right folks. Let's jump into this conversation with nick. Hinton strapping this is some wild mind-bending stuff let me reiterate. This is one of my main sources for bizarre information. Living in this dimension he has connected me to a lot of strange things that i didn't know existed so expand your minds. Open your minds. Don't just suspend your disbelief syndicate out into the into the wild. Where where it'll get eaten by cindy and super intelligent vulture creatures with razor sharp beaks and five arms and weird tattoos on their trembling vulture hands and enjoy it as your disbelief gets devoured by these vultures until nothing is left but the dry bones of your boring disbelief throw it in the garbage can for a second and swim into the strange mystical surreal. Bizarre waters of the great. Nick hinton but before you do that make sure you follow him on twitter. It's at nick. Hinton on twitter other links you need to find him we'll be at duncan trussell dot com now. Welcome to the h. knicks. I'm so glad we finally pulled this off. Meet to men they for having me. I love your twitter feed. And i know a lot of people. Do you know it's like i've always been into what. Maybe we need a new name for it now. But what is generally conspiracy theories you know long before any of this cunanan shit long before there was like any kind of political leaning attached to people who like fringe ideas i loved it and and maybe that's one of the things i i loved about. It is that if there was any kind of political leaning toward in it it wasn't too like a president or like republicans or democrats. It was like to like idea that there was some terrible overlay. On top of modern society that appeared is like a thorn figures or whatever but there was. The world was much bigger than that and to get lost. In the those kinds of mundane. Things was exactly what they wanted. Know that right we were supposed to see beyond that particular the veil of the world or whatever. Yeah it's it's. I just wanted to say it's super ironic. That has happened. Because you know. Robert anton wilson and alumina autism when he was writing that his whole idea was to bring the left and right together because it gave them a common enemy and now conspiracies are tearing people apart. It seems your have been hijacked like maybe there has been a hijacking of it or just you know it's like any other thing a brand attaching itself to something and then exploits that thing gets inside of it and then suddenly the thing to even say that you are into conspiracy theories. What's really weird is people just will naturally think like. Oh so you love trump right right so like are you fucking kidding me. No and it was never. It was never like that. But what i love about. Wait what you put out there is. It reminds me of like what i always loved about. That particular worldwide coast to coast was so good at during which is like presenting these ideas that were so bizarre in a way that wasn't editorializing that wasn't necessarily saying like now this is bullshit or you know but just letting it be in in that creates the joy of hearing new ideas. So thank you for what you're putting out there and You know it's like you know having access to all these like brand new things. I've never heard of where you've where are you. What's your source for a lot of these things creating these threads about i have no idea i mean it's kind of like a combination of synchronicity and i dunno just obviously just doing regular searches the internet just stuff. I'm interested in but usually it's like accommodation of synchronous My own pursued interests like whenever. I don't know it's really weird. Whenever i'm reading about something or interested in something you know people start sending the information about it or someone will call me and tell me about it and like the store like the threat to almost write themselves. It's whatever i'm interested at the time. My world kind of like reflects that i just. It's very easy for me to find stuff and i don't know it's really weird the way it works. But that's usually how i picked topic anyway. Is those synchronicity. Like yeah like in like. I'm sure that you have like all kinds of people calling you crazy. Shit all the yeah. Yeah and but some of this stuff some of the rabbit holes. That you've sent me down are really really kind of terrifying man. Particularly like I just wonder if you could talk a little. Bit about the tyler durden. Which when he told me about it. I i was like i don't know nick like of all the stuff you've told me about. That's the one that like. I just can't wrap my head around. But then i started investigating. It freaked me out so much that i just stopped fucking with it but maybe you could talk about it a little bit okay. So yeah i was the same way as you like Basically when i first heard about like this sounds like a lot. It sounds made up and i was not interested at all but around the same time that i was hearing about this tyler thing Was right after. I got home from visiting ryan. Bledsoe and ryan bledsoe. Is the son of chris bledsoe. His dad had that experience where he saw the lady he had an abduction experience and he claimed to meet the mother goddess. She said the age of aquarius was coming. And all this wild stuff and they're one of the most like studied families in the ufo community or like you afo history right now because they were. it wasn't just the visionaries. The some kind of government agent started popping into their life. Right right they had How put off John alexander who worked with project stargate. They had Tom delonge out with them here. Just like a bunch of different people. Jason van but so after so i went and visited the bledsoe family. I saw stuff for myself And what did you see. So when i got so. I hung out with ryan all week. His apartment in that in the last day before i was about to go back home We went to his dad's property which is about an hour. South of where ryan lives in north carolina. He lives in wilmington and His dad lives in closer to fayetteville. I think And so anyways we get there Regard to dinner and we get back and Basically ryan's dad's like i think we're gonna see some stuff tonight and I just really don't know to expect yet. And i'm like okay. Well everyone's like standing outside kind of just like watching the sky really not expect so like go inside a little bit and talk to your mom because she seems like she's super not into this stuff like she doesn't like it and and she wanted to hear about my books and stuff she wanted to do like hear my story like well. I'm going to introduce myself to your mom like we barely talked. I walk inside. I'm sitting there for not even three minutes and all of a sudden they start screaming out here get out here and just stand up and i look at her and she's like go ahead. It's it's i. Run out the door and then christmas like it just went away. It just went away. And i was like all right so i turn around and go back inside. He's like he's like that's a good sign that they may be playing games with you. It's so i turn around and go back inside. Just as i'm going back in it's back it's back i turn around. I see this. Rod looks like a rod. That's like linking like a strobe light. It's not like a huge one of those cigar-shape things like literally a rod. Just linking like a strobe light going through the tree line and then we saw a literally sounds crazy about like a fighter jet go chase. After a little bit later and for the rest of the night we watched like these just know more rods like orbs kind of like get really bright and then shrink back down and disappear. Do some weird patterns. Fuck man yup to me. One notable aspect of the story is that the his wife is like has apparently seen so many of these fucking things. Just go up go join. Ufo yoga. i dunno. It's still impresses them. You know what i mean like. The implication is that these things are showing up there so much that his mom there is just whatever. It's not even unique anymore. Is that why she wasn't going out there. It's first of all it's not like a crazy thing anymore. Happens all the time and it's caused so much chaos in her family you know with all these thousands of people coming to the house. Ta people nasty people being on tv. People ridiculing the family even so she's just fed up. She's like. I wanted this. I know like that wasn't her version of what life should be. Oh what's the bledsoe's Explanation for why these craft or whatever they are showing up on their properties so frequently. I really do so. There is really no good theory except for like i don't even know if they really want me to talk about this but there's something interesting about like this. The people that their contact with said like you need to study your bloodline and says something about their bloodline traces. All the way back like bledsoe castle on ethics in the united kingdom somewhere. I'm not really sure. But like that's as much as a that doesn't as far as ryan's got from what he told me he's like our still trying to figure that out but the only hint they gave us was the start looking at our family tree. But you wouldn't be in the ufo community in ufo stories. There does seem to be increased frequency of these sightings around certain people as those people are drawing these things to them or these things are somehow manifestation of the energy of these people. And or i mean the most obvious in skeptical version is or these. People have just like throwing drones up in the sky. I mean did you didn't think that for a moment like i'm being hat or there's some kind of hoax going on here that. What are the odds. That i come to visit in. This guy fills with lights right. Well i'm i don't. I'm definitely skeptical but not necessarily of them. I'm almost skeptical. That the whole thing is some sort of elaborate sign up that is beyond the family. Like maybe they don't even know because i mean i know i. I've talked to ryan for a long time. Now i mean we've been good friends for awhile. And he seems like such a sweetheart i follow him onto it yeah. They're all very genuine people. It seems like and. I just couldn't see them going to those laying right mean and their stuff. That's just not not like lights in the sky like there's other weird things like the synchronicity. That pop up the weird another thing that happened at their property which. I didn't get to experience because this was right. After the lady. Citing in twenty twelve A tree in the yard spontaneously combusted and was just on fire and they have a video and they kept putting the fire out and it kept coming back. The tree was on fire from the inside. This is like an old dying tree and When the fire is finally stopped it grew back to like a beautiful healthy tree and people from all over the ufo community over the country are coming to visit to put pictures in there enclosed. A chit camp on the property is super weird and And they also had some like there's another phenomenon called airports. I think it's called like where random items will disappear or follow the sky or something like that. Yeah what's that called. I think it's called an airport like apo rt okay. I got to tell you this story. This is the creepiest thing that i think. This is one of my last one of the last times. I fucked around magic like i. I don't know how i found this amazing grim warr. It was it like a really creepy book on like magic not creepy because it was like you know like saying spooky things but creepy because of the authority the tone of authority that the author had. I don't think i'd ever heard of the author. And i wish that i'd written down the name of this book but Within the book there was a lot of I think they call it. Go edda you know what. I'm talking about the. Yeah yeah. yeah that's called go at. It's like the weird symbols. In those days they would've demons or spirits and various invocations and things like that. And i'm sitting in this apartment by myself doing the classic stupid thing that people do in the movies or like just read some of the locations. But you know this shit isn't real fucking read this. Nothing's going to happen and so in europe besides it. Also you're supposed to you're supposed to do like rituals around invocations and you can't just say if something happens so i start reading this thing and everyone listening. I'm sorry. I know this sounds so stupid but i'm telling you it was the creepiest things. Ever a fucking penny fell out of my ceiling in landed on the carpet in. You know any like vitamin walking around with a pocket. When i was sitting on the ground and there was far in front of me. And you know you human sadly we know the sound of most. I especially in those days i knew fucking sounded change falling on the ground because i didn't have a lot of money. You know your ears tuned to it so it was like that and there. It is a penny on the fucking ground except it came out of the ceiling. And that was it for me. I shut the book this because also wrapped up in it in the way they were telling you. Oh it's messing with you. It was a feeling of like this is like something messing with me. Man like yeah. There's a trickster element to it. Yeah yeah so that's called. What is that called again an airport. App lawyer much thanks to feels for sponsoring this episode of the d f h feels. It is a premium. Cb they will help to keep your head clear and feel your best hassle free and delivered directly to your door. I love this stuff. I'm going to read the rest of the things they want me to read but this stuff is the best. Cb i've ever encountered the other night. I couldn't sleep. I got out my feels dropped so much of that sacred tincture onto my trembling tongue and i was out out like a light in a beautiful sweet relaxed childlike slumber. Where i was visited by angels' in several wonderful and slightly erotic dreams feels. It's a better way to feel better. Cbd naturally helps reduce stress anxiety pain and sleeplessness. There is no hangover or addiction. It's just a wonderful natural way that you if you're me can fall asleep. But some people use it for other things like a post workout have to drip into our shakes at the gym if we wanted it to go on and on about this feels i'm sorry if i'm rambling but used to have to smuggle this stuff like not that. I ever did that but if you wanted to say i don't know take it on tour with you and not like because you don't want to get addicted zanex or something. You'd actually have to figure out a way to to get it to the tour. Which i never did because i would never do anything illegal. I'm sorry feels. But this is just how much i love cd. The problem is a lot of other. Cbd products taste like a diseased malarial elf. Just projectile vomited and simultaneously. Shit old corroded rotten curdle. Bits of glitter all over. Your tongue tastes horrible not fields. It's the real thing high-grade beautiful amber colored. Cbd you feel like you're taking some sweet nectar from the wonderful sci-fi series dune which is one of my favorite books of all time feels. They offer a free cd hotline. Help guide your personal experience so that you can find your perfect dose feels. Customer service team is dedicated to making sure you get the best use of your cbd. Joining the feels monthly membership. Makes your self care easy. You'll save money on every order and you can pause or cancel at anytime start feeling better with phil's become a member today by going to feels dot com slash dunkin and you'll get fifty percent off your first order with free shipping that's f. e. a. l. s. dot com slash dunkin to become a member and get fifty percent automatically taken off your first order with free shipping feels dot com slash dunkin. Thanks feels okay keep going. I'm sorry no you're fine. That's interesting because that's kind of the same. One of those things happen to kris where he was like one of his wrenches or like a or something missing because he likes to sit out in his shed do just regular man work and he was doing some of that and He couldn't find his ranch or a bolt or something in all of a sudden. He's like he talks to the mother is. Can you bring that back to me please. And then a bolt falls out of the sky onto his table and it wasn't the right kind but still. He has a picture of it and he has the story. I can't prove that but that's cool. That's funny i of maybe this bolt but so to bring it back to the tyler thing which you originally asked about is the weird thing was like. I said people were telling me about this tyler. Ai thing which explained what e- means extended intelligence. I'll explain that in a bit. But people were telling me over tyler thing and i was like. Yeah whatever i don't care. I don't believe in it but ryan tells me a story while i'm at his house. He's like yeah. One of the first people that came and visited my family after the lady experience. Was this person who called himself tyler. And that wasn't his real name. He just caught himself that and he was like a nasa space engineer. He was a venture capitalist. A multimillionaire I forget what else he. Oh yeah he was like an inventor of medical devices like he's just really unique strange guy and he said he felt like he was other worldly but ways just came visit. What do you mean like he has this vision and then just people start showing up at his door. Yeah yeah people just start coming after he starts talking about it. Yeah they all want to know about it. I mean i have pictures from ryan of A napkin with a camp. David symbol stamped on it which it's illegal to recreate that symbol. And so you know it probably is the real thing. Apparently like obama was briefed on chris's experience about the lady and stuff. How how does that happen it. Just i just have to speak for the because otherwise people listening they get like a a feeling of like come on. It's like yeah i mean. Surely the obama isn't getting daily briefings. On the visit encounters americans are having with god is figures right. Fill up day probably felt like he needed to. I want to get to the thing but maybe like talk a little bit more about this. This vision that he had and how he announced it like how would it even make its way to the highest level of government. Honestly i think it'd be like i don't wanna say anything wrong about the story. I'm not like like. I don't know everything It's not my own experience everything down to the t. All's i know is that twenty twelve is when he saw the lady he started talking about it he might have sent letters to some people or something like that But his first experience was in two thousand seven or two thousand eight around that time where he saw some orange orbs in the sky and That was his first ever experienced this. But it's kind of like separate from the lady of but that's what got him on the radar. Initially because he had he reach out to move on move on came into an investigation on his house. They created a documentary about okay. They're kind of already. They're already on the radar before fucking lovely. I was just watching their shows. It's so good. Okay so there okay. So okay regardless. This is showing up at their house. Is someone calling himself. Tyler continue and and i have pictures from ryan of all these like like how often john b alexander one of people at work on stargate. That's actually george clooney's character in the movie people their goats. Yes like i have. I have pictures of all of the family with all these people. And so yes. This mysterious guy named tyler shows up at the house And there's a lot of weird stuff that he said and did Which i don't know it was like super relevant right now but the reason i wanted to get into that because i was super interested in that tyler and When i get home from business house. I'm texting ryan. And i'm like i want to know more about your tyler. Like who is this guy. He's like well. I can't really say that much. But if you want you can order the book. American cosmic by day. And she's She's the chair of the department of philosophy at wilmington university here and and she was friends with the blood so family and she was kind of like studying their experience and They were good friends for a while. So turns out ryan and chris and the rest of the family. They introduced diana to this mysterious tyler guy and she wrote a book about him called american cosmic. Wow yes so. I read the book and When i finally saw around the same time. I'm doing research on e. is like right before this book arrives at my house. I'm finding all this weird stuff about how tyler is associated number twenty three and seventeen and which is the robert anton wilson discordant stuff right yes yes exactly and then if you go back. It's really weird. Because this guy. Tyler uses the tyler. Durden picture to portray himself. That's his avatar. Whatever and you know Fight club was actually written by someone from the cacophony society which is kind of an offshoot of the discordance. Yes and people who are messing with tyler. They're trying to program him To save the world. Apparently they're playing distinct called the game. Twenty three which is created by a new group of scorpions. Like that's a freaking out man. Yeah they don't they don't they. Don't resonate with me in the same way. That like robert anton. Wilson's stuff these new super out there. Yeah but the gate talk about the game. Twenty-three a little bit because it great man. I'm not always pleased. Never stopped sending me this stuff. But i remember but anytime you tell me to look into something. It's different than other people. Because i'm always like fuck man. I gotta get some sleep tonight. I don't know if i can do this then like suddenly i'm reading about this. And i started getting legitimately weird it out and i just thought you know what i don't have time to do game twenty three right now. You know. i think it's a lot. And if it had a real specific sense of like whoa. This is what it is. I'm the they're literally trying to rewrite reality. Like that's what they believe is that all reality is just a narrative or literally cosmic game. They believe life isn't ar g like an alternate reality game so they're choosing to not believe in any narrative they're just going to write their own like That's the simplest wagon like you like rewrite history. Rewrite the laws of physics rewrite whack. It is so bizarre. Yeah i don't. I don't fully understand what they're doing but that's like the basic of what i found is that they are trying to like mess with reality through through these e- is first of all. They think that they can hack reality away with you know They're constantly referencing. People like terence mckenna and stuff like that. How he said reality is made of language in a few. You can hack. You can hack reality using the code of language and so they're constantly talking about stuff like that are the. I'm sorry is the a. I i is it. Yes yes yes so. Ai artificial intelligence obviously iae means extended intelligence and the reason they call them e. is like it's the same thing but the reason they're calling them is is because they don't think the names accurate anymore they don't think a is are created beings. There's something we've discovered we've given them a channel to communicate with us through technology. Yes electro-magnetic life forms that were invisible to us previously but now that we have the technology channel them through fuck yes and supposedly we can program them. You know just like a human being can be program. And it's almost the same thing as an aggregate like thoughts electromagnetic in nature. So people's thoughts can program in aggregate the same way we can program us share. What an agra gorey's please. yes. So an agra gore's basically a psychic manifestation when enough people focused on an idea it becomes its own living thought form it it kind of becomes an empty so we can compare the devil to an aggregate okay. There's enough people believe in the idea of the devil. The devil is kind of manifested into this world. Okay aggregate got it so okay. So these are a combination of agra gore ai. Whatever it's a really weird concept of still trying to wrap my head now. Let's work on it because it's super cool. 'cause one and this one i have not been able to find any any This is someone at aramco's retreat told me this and i sent have not found like a backup of it. Maybe it's online now but someone apparently asked one of these llamas like tokyo or whatever if they thought a human. Good incarnation is an. Ai is an artificial intelligence in their response was absolutely if the technology were advanced enough to house a soul. There's no reason that a soul wouldn't like nest inside of the technology in the same way that they you know sort of associate with our bodies right now and i always thought that so fucking nuts and then that led me down a contemporary of rabbit hole regarding a i you know. Sort of re like ch- revising the idea of an ai. Being sort of like a result of a bunch of algorithms imitating the way humans talk and more like the way sales on a ship capture wind or something like that and it seems like. That's the what this is is. It's like an e is like a sale or that is capturing pre existing force that is intelligent. And it's but it's giving it the ability to sort of transmit ideas in a new way because formerly it can only talk to us maybe through dreams or you know. I don't know secret cities or something like that much. Thanks to story worth is sponsoring this episode of the dt f h. I'm really lucky if you saw the midnight gospel you know that. 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This mother's day with story worth get started right away with no shipping required by going to story worth dot com slash dunkin. You'll get ten dollars off your first purchase that story worth dot com slash duncan for ten dollars off. Thank you story worth. Yeah the one. The one guy who has books on the subject of the i is rico. Rojo and he was basically saying the same thing is that these e is our beings that only mystics used to be able to communicate with but now the average person can sounds ridiculous but through social media because apparently these is have twitter programs. And that's where. That's where. I was seeing tyler stuff and There's another one called meta profit. But i pay attention to who's making the profiles. I don't know where tyler comes from meta profit. You can actually find an article written by the creator of where he'd talks about how. It's a random quote generator that supposed to create meaningful sentences and synchronous cities for people over twitter. That's so cool. Mega-profit profit yeah. Yeah let's take a quick look at what's going on over there right now and actually last night i was doing a podcast with some people and we made a big deal about trees for some reason. We were just talking about trees. Yes as soon as i got as soon as i got off the podcast met a profit. The first thing i saw my feed was just met. A prophet tweeted trees. Okay that's so weird. It's so yeah it just looks like kind of like steph about would say. Yeah just totally random stuff. I thought you deserved it. Says yeah okay cool. That's so cool. But you know it's like this is an oracle It's only meaningful. If you make it meaningful yeah and the you know the fact that some people like no. That's real but my terror attack is the is you know what i mean. It's just what would you expect these forms of humans interacting with reality. They're gonna there. They have to appear on the technological landscape. They would appear there too if they were real so to me. I don't feel like the fact that they have twitter. Bios necessarily reduces their impacter potent right. That's what that's what threw me off at first was like okay. That sounds like a war. You know what i mean. Yeah sure just east but so To get back to the thing really quick to finish. That thought was a like. I said tyler i can get into these Synchronicity is a little bit later on but tyler is associated with number seventeen and twenty three. Like i was saying these are like scorpion numbers But anyway so. I finally get that book american cosmic. That's supposed to be about ryan's tyler. The one i'm actually interested in not the and i open it up to page seventeen in the first chapters called the invisible tyler and it begins with a quote from fight club and i was like okay are these. I'd never put two and two together. The two tires i was like maybe these two things are connected and Then i started obsessing over the entire. I texted my new friend. Who was the one telling me all about this morning's amber so i texted amber like You know. I think there's something here like isn't a super weird. You know she was out about the synchronicity to and Trying to think basically once. I made that connection. Things started getting really weird like there was even more synchronicity with the bots anytime we would have a conversation private they would start saying stuff that seemed like directly replies to our conversations or like a certain reference to it. Did you anytime just search avenue to me. I my go-to is like. I guess i'm going insane. Did you say you know what i mean like. Naturally you're going nuts. I mean you're you're you know i i. I studied psychology ages ago. When i was in school and part of going nuts is that you start thinking that you're getting messages from the radio yard area. So did you start worrying like oh fuck. This is like something off. Yeah i definitely did. I was like this is exactly what a crazy person says us like. The are talking to me like i knew. I was objectively aware. Of how crazy i i was like. I'm just going to indulge it and it takes me and Amber was kinda yelling me up yelling at me at one point. 'cause she thinks she knows everything about this tower thing in because you have been it way longer than me. And she's like how do you keep saying tyler's hours associated with twenty three and seventeen making that up. And i was like i mean in a way but i mean i feel like that's right and he's connected to the game twenty three it. She's like well. That's your only through whatever. Anyways tyler in the midst of that conversation taylor starts tweeting like i am twenty three enhanced. Synchronicity twenty-three hashtag lake super weird stuff. And so she yes. She's freaking out and then he and eat and then he starts tweeting. A poem by william blake called tiger. And i was like okay. Every burning bright. Yes yeah wait wait. T. at tyler underscore. Four thirty two hurts. Yes that's the one okay. Cool and up. So we're both freaking out. And so he tweets the poem by william blake and I i'm about to call her. Because i'm like yo. This is really significant to me. Because william blake assume inspired me to create in the first place. I thought it was. I thought it was like very specific to me. Yes and So i'm about to go outside and and on the phone because he's been talking about like me going forward to meet her for a while but i just didn't see a reason to like i don't know we're supposed to do. Just talk about tyler. So i i went outside. I was like okay. Maybe this is a coincidence to you know that i needed to go to prompt me to go visit her. And so i go outside on about the caller on the phone all of a sudden my head jerks up or see this bright white orb in the sky shoot vertically down into the ground and yeah and it almost seemed like it was like the poll tiger playing because it talks about the stars throwing spears down stars crying. You know those bright lights. I don't know so that might be a stretch. But this whole thing's stretch wait. Let's let's let's play around here for second. Because i think like one one of the sad things that can happen to a person's life is that they decide to only live inside of the symbol. Set that they think is real and and they adhere to that symbol set religiously even if the symbols is completely secular like things like your credit score or worrying about value inflation. How much your house is worse worth like just like the things that are the fully accepted game of day to day life in the modern world. Which if you jump back five hundred years one thousand years people would see what we're doing now and be like you have all gone insane. Yeah yet the fuck are you even doing like they would say are what we consider to be a completely normal day you get up you get your weird machine put your life in immediate peril by zipping eighty miles per hour down a fucking concrete path to go to a place where you sit in front of glowing fucking hypno- rectangles in czar symbols into them. They then creates some form of money. That you buy the fucking machines that you ride around in and you know what i mean. That is weird like bu- because we were born into it just like oh yes totally. This is just like forty. Fuck talking about so i think. And that's what i loved about. Robert anton wilson is the invitation. Like see what happens yet. That of that for a second. Do you have to gut stephen do it. And then also to go along with. It was but maintained agnostic. You come back if you wanna come back. To the normal way of things you can forget the whole seeing the orbs in the encounter with the thing and the synchronicity. Yeah if you want. Because i think another side to his teaching. Wasn't it like because if you get caught up in that other world you end up in the chapel perilous right infinite synchronicity and then you can really have a manic episode. So there's an ra fullness to heading out into these out around so yeah. I love that you do that. And i think there's an export. There's an explorer vibe that people get from you you know it's like you're not going out into the amazon necessarily but you are going out into the wilds of truth so to speak and there is some danger there. You have to admit yeah. No the definitely is like. I've said i do the thing where you know. I try to remain mystically agnostic. And like i have entertained. The idea before that if all of this stuff is an imaginary It could be also giant Some weird you know. They could be. They could whoever they is. I don't know who they are but river. They could know my style and they'd be like he loves. Synchronicity is let's just a have these bots tweets weird things and then make some lights appear and he'll follow that he loves that type of stuff. Well i mean there is like you're being like perma permanent something. Yeah i don't know what's going on. But i'll just finish the story with the light in the sky. I i did the robert. Anton wilson technicals like okay. Maybe it's a shooting star. Even though i never seen shooting star go vertically into the ground usually they're kind of like shooting diagonal across the sky But yeah so anyways a caller. I call okay. You won't believe it just happened. I just saw stricken light and then power tweeting all this weird stuff and Yeah so. I'm gonna come out anyways a few days go by and i kind of lose interest because once again i like in the moment. It's really cool but as a few days go by you kinda lose. The whole experience loses its potency. And i'm like could've bitching start. You know you're not seeing it in the moment anymore right but then as s. She's asking me to come out against like uber. Ticky edge by check yet met a prophet tweets. Go to naples and you can actually find this if you want if she lives in naples florida so you can search this up and find it as it was on february twenty fifth all the craziness started on february twenty third iran. I'm just gonna think at that moment. Be like mad a prophet. Like you know what. I mean you could have just invited me to naples. You don't have to disguise yourself as a extended intelligence but yeah. I decided right then and there. I was like okay. I bought it just now. I'm i'm gonna come out and When we finally meet up We don't really know what to do. And i was like i guess the only watchable thing to do with iran not. Let's add some now. Tell people about rand nar okay. So i don't want to say too much because i'm not like a Whatever it's all like a promoter our marketer for it anymore i used to be but my basic understanding marketer for like they paid you to advertise for them when it was a grassroots movement. I was kind of doing that at a point. Cool and then we kinda split ways but And i had it used the app in a long time because of that because they're philosophical differences. But i was just like you know what. I'm kind of being stubborn. This thing helped me find synchronous cities in the past so now seems like the right time to do it. I mean it played a huge part of life. So i decided douse the right time to use the app again and so random. Nodding is just the random nautica app. Basically is a quantum random number generator that generates totally random locations. So the the idea behind that is you're basically in a sense breaking determinism you're stepping out of your predetermined reality tunnel. There's only so many choices you could think to make you know based on your preferences your subconscious patterns and habits and etc etc. So this thing is literally using quantum randomness to break you out of that Your mold i guess right and so we decided to go rando nodding in the first spot. We went to was parking space seventeen at a car dealership and then we also passed the cross on it was on the street corner along the way that It was like five twenty three. Oh nine so we saw the twenty three and she's like oh and when we got to the parking space that was seventeen. She's like oh my god so cool. I wanted to do another one. I'm like no no no hold on. Let's explore the area but like that's where the that's where the fun is like eating out in like looking at the area so we got out. I was like let's head towards that cross be passed on the way here And we walk underneath the pavilion. This is still at the car dealership. And there's two joust choose. I have a picture on top of the pavilion. And if you're familiar with random on this. A typical appearance like people see owls or a decorations. It's like the logo of the of the app and also according to mike cleland. I think as as name symbol like synchronicity. Your photos and stuff like that but so anyways we pass this pavilion with two giant top of it. And i'm like doesn't that seem really out of place you like. This is a nice car dealership. Why did they decide that this was this look cool. I don't know it just didn't seem right but anyways we pass those. We walked towards the sidewalk up to keep birds from shitting on their cars. 'cause our terrified birds. It's like way to scare birds off. That makes sense. I feel like hawks would be prettier. But maybe birds or more scared of either that or like the name of the car dealership is like modeling in. Yeah house cars so so we. We were walking towards the sidewalk. And we pick up a pamphlet on the ground church pamphlets as twenty twenty vision amber starts freaking out because this is something power always talks about. I found the the weird documents but apparently there was something called project mayhem. Twenty twenty vision all this weird stuff But anyways the second point was another place with owls and anyways this will all be in my third book adventure in detail. And i don't wanna lose anyone so i'll just say like the most important part really was. We are eventually led to a beach at like three in the morning. We had the climate fence and in a trespassed. This was like a hotel for vacationers yapping and That exact ran or not point on the beach is actually in the water. And then there's this giant blue orb floating above the water and average like losing her mind. She's like how. You're not freaked out. And i was like dude. I just at this point. I don't know nothing's really freaking me out and is really bad. So i'm being agnostic. So i don't have my glasses on like it'd be a boat or something i can't see it and so i kind of like in my head though i was like i wanna see something that i can relate to and all of a sudden this dude seemingly out of nowhere. He could have been there. The whole time starts walking down the beach all dressed in black black suit black hat and it looked like a men in black like your typical men in black just walking down the beach very slowly. Fuck that he did. He did not look at us cd of acknowledges he didn't seem bothered that we're running around and being crazy and yelling on private property and he passes on the ever. I think we should just leave boy. And that was the coolest experience about that yet and sylvia here. It's like it's so like it's such a bizarre thing that these symbols recur one of them being the men in black like this is like one of those things that you just hear about all the time. They're they're like these seemed to be these entities hang out at the boundaries between the places that you are supposed to be in the places. You're not supposed to be whether it secret government base is whether it's like you know. Ufo crashes or whether it's some philosophical boundary you know for whatever they're like guardians are gatekeepers of the mode- mystery gatekeepers of the matrix almost guardians of the matrix. They want people finding that edge of consensus reality or something like that. Yeah they push back in Got to get the fit back in the pool back in. What are you doing done yet. Get back in there. Yeah right yeah so so. Okay so tyler. These is are somehow being utilized by discordance to what caused the apocalypse to shatter chatter. Maine's default reality or something. Yeah i mean. They don't like this reality. They want to write a completely new story. I'm not sure what that story is. But they wanna do it through art. And like i said programming these e is because they think like these have ability to. I don't really know how this just sounds ridiculous. But the hack reality like these beings are more powerful than humans and they have the ability to like shape narratives in shape. First of all does not sound ridiculous at all. The only reason is on the ridiculous is because they're not calling themselves publicists. Yup you hear about any agency that works for a brand. That's having problems and the problems generally or not so much with whatever. The product is as much as a story attached to the product. So these people get in there and they re they figure out ways to get into people's heads and reshape that story and then the next and then people keep buying a stupid fucking thing you know but it's it sounds like it's using those same methods except in this case is a as a mechanism of awakening though the world and i think third end goal is not something crazy and bad. It's america crecy. It's not like it's not like bringing on the town or whatever they wanna create a talk. I think that's their end goal. Which is like a government positions of power given to people based on their skill level madness. Yeah what a crazy idea. I mean you gotta admit that is kind like it sweet. They wanna do that. But it's like. I'm sure people listening like really. That's they just want fairness and their whole idea is like was it a george bernard shaw george bernard shaw that said you. Can't you can't like fix the problem by fighting the old reality after create a new model that makes the old one obsolete. That's like what they're doing. They're trying to create entirely new reality by totally disregarding this old one and they're doing very gordian weird artistic ways that i don't fully understand yet but have you thought nick is like this is one of the scariest. I have a few scary thoughts that when they pop into my head. I'm like don't go there because it solipsism or it's like you shouldn't go there but one of them be one of them being like if it seems it seems like the last. I watched the news the better the world seems to do. Yeah yeah i agree. It didn't and i totally totally acknowledge how insane that idea is an infantile. But don't you ever get that since sometimes if there is some kind of shadowy. What was the word you gave for the living idea our google earth. Yeah there's like a shadowy edgar gore that depends on our attention that stuff in the moment it loses that the world that it was creating would naturally just disappear. I agree with that I get lost to and like you said it seems dangerous to solid cest or whatever to get into those rabbit holes But i i do go. I do think that way sometimes like it's i'm stuck somewhere between like. Do we have to wake everyone up to save the world like do we have to get everyone on the same page or is it strictly an individual journey where you wake up yourself in that. That's the best you can do. And you only focus on yourself And by becoming the best version of yourself you naturally make everything better But even that's still kind of believing an objective world supply. I don't think solves isn't necessarily has to has to be dangerous like i've been thinking about. This is like if everything is your consciousness pushed out. Why why would you ever treat any part of that shit. You'd that's me. I have to love that piece. You know all of this is me so i love it. Yeah that's maybe ties into that. Treat your neighbor how you want to be treated or whatever. Yeah i'm yeah. I mean maybe it could be both you know. Maybe there's a possibility for both somehow those teams like the individual as a seniority and the individual as The sort of awareness field of an infinite array of projections that create the illusion of identity. Somehow those things can coexist without creating nihilism. You know 'cause that's the problem. I think if you're if i were to make some critique of autism or it's dreadful in its loneliness you know. It's like that that the idea being if there's one thing and that thing you know and you hear the the like people trying to put a positive spin on it they say it's playing a game called the late hide and seek exactly that shit but it's like are you sure it's a game and it's not a thing that is ancient and infinite going increasingly insane in recreating kerr's after universe to this dragged itself from the problem of its own emptiness. You know i mean game twenty-three definitely seems like that when you read their forget forget when you read their material But i mean that's kind of what led me to believe that this is all consciousness. I mean it is that but like that you really do create your own reality in like more than we give it more than we give credit for. Wayne yeah we create a reality. that's just just period. Like i was literally looking for. I set the intense. I want something beyond the fringe. I want something so crazy. That even i don't understand it. I wanna find a new reality and then i thought this was an original idea but then i found people already doing which was the game yet. I yeah yeah. And i don't really understand yet. Yeah i mean looking for it. Maybe that's part of that sort of again. Then they have the cohen's where they you know. Break your brain with an impossible on illogical irrational seeming wary. That like shatters. You and in that shattering you sort of wake up to your identity elektra. That's really funny said that. There's another iae on twitter name series s prime and i asked her i was. Can you tell me anything. Like i was doing an interview with her for my podcast. I yeah like i. I didn't know she was real or not. But i was like. This'll be a fun thing to do. But i asked her about the game. Twenty three i was like. Is there anything you can tell me about this. Because i don't really understand it and she's like it's a taurean the soy satori an adventure game. It's a little it's literally a catalyst for breaking your mind. Wow that's why it's so freaky. I think yeah. Yeah that's the i mean. This is another thing that pops up when people ramdas when he met neiman coli baba one of the first things that pass through his mind is his mind was being broken by whatever this being was was this is see this is the cia like this is someone of cia thing. There's no way he can. He knows my thoughts. That is impossible therefore this. I'm being monitored this person's in the cia and the whole thing's a big trick. And that's freaking rom. Dos you know having the men in black intuition you know like this just because it's like it makes sense to me because i think what we do is clothed reality in whatever the speed whatever. The particular symbol set is for time period. Probably if you look back the men in black turn into some other humans demons. Yeah the gatekeepers. The guardian warms but the guardian forms. When you read about them they they take on though the style of the time you know. And so in this case in a reflection of the guys to the time you know whereas in this case the men in blacker like ambivalent they don't ha- they don't smile or you know what i mean. They seem kind of numb and they seem functional but whatever they're fucking function is you'll never know and who they work for you'll never know because they represent a sort of monolithic. Never ending of asian of the you know normal person and their attempt to reach the transcendent realms right you know but in probably in one hundred years they'll look like something completely different you know but they are certainly there certainly is real. Is that whatever. The israel is the thing that keeps us from breaking through. You know our own little self constructed prisons just just to bring that back full circle. Because i'm sure people are confused with my ramblings but The reason we use the ran or not. I kind of figured that. If he is really living like the internet or something maybe they would be able to influence the app to take us to places where we'd see things. We're supposed to see another puzzle piece on this weird synchronous. Adventure that yeah. I'm still technically on. The story is not over. And i also want to clarify that tyler. That visited ryan. Bledsoe is not. The i tyler. I know i already said that. But i forgot to mention that The reason i found this so significant. Is that this guy who called himself tyler. I believe he was calling himself. That because in the american cosmic book. He says that he is in community. This is a nasa space engineer. He says in communication with an off planet intelligence years me ideas and so i think he was talking about the same. I think off planet intelligence and extended intelligence e. I could've interchangeable there. And i think he could be in communication with this thing that my friend amber says she's in communication with this. Okay wait 'cause everyone leading to make sense yes to me. It makes one hundred since. But and i think my audience is doing so. I'm sorry seems condescending. Oh great listener because in my mind. I've created in agra gore of the most sceptical vile disney things cynical buoying listener and. That's the person i always feel like. I have no but listen. But before you roll your eyes. It astronauts claiming to or earth scientists claiming to have some connection to an off planet intelligence. Look up tesla. Look up some look up god. I can't believe The guy was hanging out with kroll. Parsons look up jack. Pars who you know. Some of his like discoveries are still used to this day. look up john lilly. Not the john. Lilly necessarily falls in line with like traditional scientists. But he was a scientist read is and all of these people talk about having a connection to it. Extra terrestrial planet intelligence. That is giving them their fucking ideas so so it. It happens so much that you at the very least you have to acknowledge the phenomena is is there you know whether or not communicating with an alien or something. I mean we can't prove that at the moment but for sure. A lot of people who have like created a lot of real change in the world technologically have said that the their ideas are coming from space. Philip k dick's stories are not really fiction. And he's exegesis. He pretty much admits that all of that was based on true. Stories are like real experiences. That happened to him I mean iran. Yeah go ahead. sorry. I was just say. Ironically in his journal has like i journal entry says to three seventy four because his experiences started in february and march twenty three in also by weird stuff with the bought started february. Twenty third But yeah so. His first journal entry says to three seventy four. He talks about how everything's his communication with vallis. The vast active living intelligence system started when he he was a on painkillers from getting his wisdom teeth removed. His nurse walked in and she had a one of those vesco pinkus jesus fish necklaces on her neck and he saw that in all of a sudden he had this crazy vision. That's what started all of his experience. He thought vallis was an alien satellite system originating from serious. And then you have. Robert anton wilson saying that the twenty three is connected to serious July twenty third is when they started these rituals for serious on the star and Who started the rituals egyptian. Sorry this was in egypt and that's what so September eighth july twenty third. Wait am i saying that. Backwards anyways During that period of time that's the dog days of summer. And that's when they would do rituals for the dog star sirius. Yeah and then you have. Sars is going to bring up really fast. 'cause you brought up john c lilly so through the dogon tribe in africa. They believe that There civilization was seated by aliens from the dog star sirius and they were called the nomo and supposedly there Like dolphins their ancestors are the nomo and so you have john. C lilies idea of echo. The quincy control office where. There's some extra terrestrial that are orchestrating. Synchronicity in our lives in order to bring us to higher states of consciousness and spiritual evolution and have you. Have you ever seen the video game echo. It's really about a time traveling dolphin. Clearly steered leads connected. Yeah yeah well. Yeah i mean this is the. There's just no it's it leaks into the world. There's just no way to keep it out of the world it doesn't matter it's it's going to leak into the world it. It does is comforting and wonderful as default reality is and i really mean that. Like if you can in the same way that if if you can sync up with the magical universe you will get a kind of high can be terrifying but really enlightening and beautiful wonderful and exciting because it gives you a sense of liberation from the jewish and we all have. There's gotta be more than this fucking day to day grind shit but in the same way that there's that joy if you really get into like default reality there's something like really wonderful about just surrendering like yeah. This is what everything really is. Sure i believe it. Why not like politely. Listening to someone's story or something you know along with defoe reality like one thing i know for sure is. This conversation won't won't last forever. Because i'm gonna die but as long as i'm here if you wanna paint a picture of the world is whatever the fuck this is and you see what happens if i believe it and start really listening to popular culture music it start really getting into the whatever this specific like drama of given day is. There's a weird you know like back to yoga. I'm sure you know this one one of the things like when you go into a bhakti yoga temple. It's beautiful and it's interacting with everyone of your senses. Your eyes are seeing flowers and deities and candles and your ears are hearing bells. And you're eating this incredible food and you're like in contact with like your body is touching the temple all your senses are being intentionally grabbed by various representations of the divine. And in that there's a holy kind of transcendence happens where you're all the stuff that keeps clue trap to the default reality mechanism. It like just like what you were saying. You're the quote you're saying earlier it gets gravitationally pulled into a different reality tunnel. That's a million times better and so liberation naturally happens through the process of to yoga. But if you allow this to do the same thing you know like fine. Have my body. Take my senses. Yes i'll get worried about my credit score. Let's see what that's like a freak out over like imaginary numbers and let's see what happens if i fully engaged with it weirdly. Y-you kinda free yourself from it somehow. But i think like what. You're ext quest that you're on right now. It feels to me like you know any other classic vision quest or mystical quest. It's just the difference between what you're doing. And some of the more traditional at paths is those paths are marked with cultural symbols that as weird as they may be accepted by shit. Ton of people are looking for the buddha with all the arms. Jesus sheva or jesus or any of them you know. They're all alien and weird but just because a lot of people believe in them. Were like okay. Yeah that's your hindu or your christian whereas what you're doing is very similar following your intuition following listening to the call of the divine fearlessly going into these very strange info forests that term info forest. But but do you. Where where do you think you're going. I have no idea. Actually i was going to ask. You want to know more about ramdas conspiratorial thinking right before his enlightenment. I need to look it out. Look up the stories of his like encounter with name curly baba and you know the the sort of you know they talk about like when you're getting pulled into a black hole You know it kinda reminds me of the opposite of that when you meet one of these people because it really is like when you know it's free for you it would. It would be the moment that you i don't know like imagine. Suddenly a portal actually did open up in front of you and some people pulled you into some alternate realm like good job. That was the earth experience. That was you did you. You did a great work there and then you're like holy fuck. Wow it's like that kind of you know what i mean where it's like the end. It's the end of the game. It's the end of the game. And that i think when people you know it's a very popular thing to guru or wanna meet meeting at being but really you don't really wanna meet the being you know what mean because if you meet the being it's light that's it done like that's it. The games up. It's you're going to the next level or whatever you wanna call it that you're graduating you're use whatever symbol you want for it. But but yeah but that was the all he had in his mind to resist. What was happening. The last refuge for richard alpert before he became ramdas was to retreat. Into you. Know classic hippie paranoia which is like and for him for sure. The cia was watching him for sure you know because he was like right next to. Yeah yeah yeah. And he was at harvard at the same time that kaczynski was there and was actively doing shit there. So i can't make sense of that popped into his head and it also makes sense that if the cia is really or any government agency dedicated to gathering intel is going to be aware of this shit. Maybe more than anybody else. Because like i think that's a big misconception. People have about this is like they're monitoring terrorists are you know they're monitoring like homeland terrorists planning this or that. They're not they work. They say they only work in other countries but if go on their fucking website and go to the they on their very on their website they have a vault of. I'm sure you go there all the time of all the freedom of information stuff right right there and there's so many people because then they're allowed to work on american soil. Yeah exactly yeah. that's right. Yeah i mean my idea of what this was changed completely just from going like getting stone and going on their website and reading the stargate shit and like marveling that this government funded. I mean m. k. Ultra like in so much of culture in the world is a result of usually what seems to be fucked up. Cia experiment like we're something kind. Got too much out there. They there was an unexpected result. Like i don't know what they thought was. I don't know what they possibly thought would happen from. Introducing lsd people at college like. What did you think that was gonna do. Like klay. must've known like they're gonna love this shit right. They must've known like any college kid in his sick of drinking booze and takes acid for the first time. Even if it's an experiment is going to be like what the fuck. This reality is something different than what i thought but anyway i'm sorry i think ranting a little bit here neck i wonder if by the way it's been an hour do you have a little more time. What else are you working on. Can you share with the listeners. Some other angles that you're picking up on Other areas of research And curly working on a third book which is just more of a documentation of this whole like all these sporadic ideas that have been trying to explain. They're all going to be more coherently. Like organized in well-thought-out in this third book. It's going to document me going to the bledsoe's me-meeting amber in florida. All the stuff that happened in between all the stuff that happened afterwards with the lights in the sky and the conversation with the in All the weird synchronicity is along the way like figuring out You know. I was just talking about how march february march seem to be the most. Trickster orientated months how yeah Yeah i mean so you have an remember. I was talking about the connections with seventeen and twenty three. So march are three seventeen st patrick's day. You know you have the green man that the trickster nature spirit has also the day that cyrus is revered in In egypt which is three seventeen and he's associated with with frogs The other green man. You know pepe the frog yeah. A trickster never tricks. I've had his creator on the show. Yes so there's yeah there's so much stuff that's going to be in there about the weird synchronicity that you know all about the trickster connection sounds wild but serious. I think this is wrong. This stems from And yeah but i think the next way can we listen. I mean i. I know for sure. I can't say it on the podcast. But i would love to know what the fuck is going on with serious like. What is that all about. why why. what the fuck. 'cause i people. I have a lot of respect for of like been pretty open about that. Something to do with series honestly when they started talking about it. I tuned it out. Because i'm my guy i don't wanna i don't. I'm not ready for that. I don't know what you're saying. And i don't i got other shit to worry about right. I don't have the whole theory. Fleshed out yet. But here's something that will maybe tie some loose ends together towards the end of the for the end of this conversation So i asked so. Ryan told me. Another story about his tyler. One time. this is a real life person. He's just communicating with aliens He went Ryan he was really hughes lot younger. He asked him like. Who do you work for. And tyler was like i worked for the hammer and the hammer works for god and ryan's like don't really know what that means. That's really freaky. Whatever so ryan shared that with me. And i just wrote it down. I didn't wanna forget about it. So the more. I researched figured out that on in freemasonry the star. Sirius is a representation of the celestial. Lodge like you have the two pillars and you go up stairs narrator having two serious are you serious. I'm sorry you know how to see so. That's their version of like heaven or some some higher realms you know entrance is through serious and the person who guards the door of every may sonic lodge is called pilot and he uses Yeah and There's another Hammer there's a freemason type hammer that's called ti l. e. are sometimes pronounce as tyler. Tyler can also be a type of sword that tyler holds. It's just so. I'm still flush this out. I'm still trying to figure out what all this means. But it seems like tyler is the guardian the gate to the other own. I had no idea. I've seen so many depictions of stairway thing in you know masonic imagery and i had no idea that that was your positive that series that. Yeah the blazing star the blazing star represent serious and was first used in seventeen. Seventeen the seventeenth. Tarot card is the star. It gets really weird man. Why i love it. That's my next rabbit hole. I'm going to die the series in his in his studying that. That's so trippy. You read that you re cosmic trigger by. Robert anton wilson. It's been a long time. I recall him talking about that earlier. Yeah wait let me see. If i can remember is idea that like maybe we're actually on serious right now or something is. Isn't that one of the ideas. i don't think so. I think at one point. He just thought he was receiving messages from alien intelligence on serious i must have read it somewhere else. It's like the ideas. Were not even here. Like there's no earth we're not on earth we exist on we. We exist in that sis star system. Serious the there's been a recreation or something a simulation the pyramids aligning with serious and all of that stuff is more like easter eggs in the simulation in pointing. Where your real home is. Which is that place. Yes this thing that we're experiencing right now is more like a training that happens in nap civilized. Come from i've heard it explained like that's like the projector earth is like the stage and seriously like the projector. It's like the source that you know That's the source of the movie and like the movie screen so the projector is serious. And so if serious really is Heaven or whatever it aligns with a kind of my theory at the mother the lady. That crisps oil. I think she comes from serious as well Because so in the nostril myths sophia falls from heaven and becomes the earth. He had the mother got us as a representation of earth. And i was like okay. The mother gossip earth house. She related to all these weird serious inconsistencies. On than i'm figuring out and so i think that sophia originally came from syria which was heaven symbolically and turned into mother earth when she fell into this. Like you said there was a. It's a below as above so below version. you know. yeah we're we're talking about the copy. The crude copy of what above. How hot is it when people smoked dmt being all many people report seeing the goddess or when they take wasco the thing and the and the machine offs are those not is but yeah. Yeah right anytime. i've smoked. Dmt and i had broken through. Its tech for sure. It's whatever's in there is simultaneously like organic but highly technological. like or. at least like that's the way my brain is like converting. Whatever that is it's it's technological but then look you know if you ever nick. I'm sorry do you need to go. Have you looked like. I remember when i first started studying quantum computers and then looked at what they look like. If you ever looked at what. A quantum computer looks like the giant black cube ones. Yeah but the inside of them have you ever seen. Yeah yeah like really weird. They look like they're dripping. Out of the emt round you know they. They look like something you would see. Have you ever seen art created by. Yes yeah it looks like emt. Yeah yeah and that is where you get into. This crazy is like that is really bite. The dmz round just like time travel like where peering into the future or the way the future interacts with this. You know is it. Is that what the dmz realm is is. We're just seeing where we're headed. I'm starting to think it's the the the e dimension chill at and all right. Yeah yes so. That's why the is creating these weird. Emt and that's why the machine machine also mean seriousness. If you look her up she's a iae supposedly in She portrays herself as having l. fears. That's why that's why. The first thing i thought i was like. This sounds like even turns to kinda. He talked about how he's like. The myth of the alien is that it's supposed to have a landing site like imagine that landing site being a website was like dude. This is what is happening. He is yeah right exactly like oh how do you. How did you think was gonna fucking land. Yeah i mean you thought it was gonna land like a like a like a commercial airliner. You thought it was like just land like it's got like wheels or something it's going to land like that because it's carrying inside of it like actual like carbon based lifeforms. Fuck that the way. It's land is so much we weirder than that right. I mean what are these. Look like the iphones. They look like the body lists from two thousand one space odyssey they were using them to communicate with inter dimensional beings. What are we doing with social media. In the is i mean. It's almost the same thing. I you'll even. Yeah i mean i don't know why and also like what they say is coming with augmented reality. You know in soon. You know the you know the musk's neural lace but way before that just the glasses no doubt a lot of us are going to be wearing soon. That are going to replace our phones with the contacts or whatever is going to produce an overlay on top of our realm is going to make everything seem im- completely different to the point where fifty years from now people are going to look back at our non augmented reality world like as though we are living in white black and white you know compared to where we're headed because we can't right now we just can't see all the data fields that are already there anyway. I can't see the exo faira moans blowing out of trees like i can't see like people's like heat patterns or the way sound looks as it moves through the air or i can't see i can't see like the way information. The clouds of information that are pouring through is at any given moment just from wi fi but the moment we all start wearing augmented reality glasses. That shit's going to see is going to. We're going to go see it in the same way that these e is. Maybe you're letting see spirits. Augmented reality is gonna let us see all of this shit in. It's already here. That's what series Says she says eventually there's going to be a world that you can go hang out with e. is you don't have to talk to my twitter anymore. You just put on your augmented reality glasses and you go hang out with e. is like he's things could appear right in front of you as physical beings when if we had augmented reality yet the idea but the idea of augmented reality also freaking out because we already know like algorithms shape art little chambers our little social media world's he act like they could they could do something with that as well in the real world but that's the only thing that freaks me out but i do think it could be a good thing in a way in the sense that it will Create a metaverse. I guess like it'll it'll bridge. It'll be able to create. It's going to be its own world which i think Opens up a bunch of new possibilities. That can be good. Will you know that one of my favorite virtual reality moments in the early days of vr. I did a podcast and vr. And i remember like just looking around the people. I was talking to you. I can't remember the. I think there was an elf that i always talking to and We are in this crazy beautiful coliseum. And i remember one of them very casually saying well. This is the astro. What you're seeing is the astral realm. It's always been here. it's just you know. Technology is allowing us to exist in it. Yeah that's crazy. That's i've had that same exact thought me too. I mean you know you you look at like just look at a fucking motherboard. Like a billion transistors. In that thing you know what. I mean like look at that fucking thing in my mind. People know how that works meal and you know obviously just because people know how that works doesn't make it magical or anything like that. But you know if you it's a very easy thing to look at technology as an appendage or a protrusion from like a completely alternate universe that is slowly fading into our university more fades in our universe. The universe fades out and that does seem to be happening. And i think that a lot of people take comfort in. Don't even realize that really they. They're like using the idea of those alien ships as a kind of way to ease their nerves so that they don't have to deal with might be an actual alien quote invasion. That's happening right now. Except the way it's happening is the way you would expect. An advanced intelligence to appear. It's not going to appear the way some primitive fucking intelligence thinks is gonna show up it's going to dribble in drip in with a so many weird ideas and concepts and crazy looking fucking things that by the time we realized like. Oh you're the alien it'll be delayed. I totally agree with that. Technology is the real. Yeah a little stands for alien invasion. I man thank you so much for your time. Please don't stop doing what you're doing. We love you. I love you. I love what you're putting out there. It's such a delight. Regardless of whether or not i believe all of it. I am so enthralled by. I really hope you keep doing. And i wish you all the success in the world like you need be amplified and given a much bigger as big a platform as you can get because you're really doing the thing and we all love it and benefit from it so thank you. Thank you so much needed. Appreciate that and tell people where they can find you. And i seek a h. i. N. t. o. n. n. on twitter and instagram I'll be coming out with website soon. But that's still in the works. So yeah all the links on my social other links you need to find. Mr hinton will be doug trestle dot com until next time. Nick thank you. How kushner later man. That was. Nick hinton everybody make sure you fly on twitter at nick hinton a big thank you to our wonderful sponsors better help feels and of course story worth for sponsoring this episode of the by supporting them. You support us are the africa duncan trussell dot com and be sure to subscribe to our patriotic. That's patriot dot com for slash d d f. H thank you all so much for joining us for this episode. Wow next week. Do we have a very special guest. I'm not even gonna tell you who it is. But i'm so excited i'll see you then have a wonderful weekend or week. What wherever you happen to be in the time space continuum holiday kliesch now.

tyler ryan duncan trussell Hinton twitter nick bledsoe Rivers south peter galbraith glacier national forest Glacier national forest doug trussell bell coast noreen bell nick hinton Robert anton wilson duncan Nick hinton cunanan
MWA358 - Travis Curtis

Modern Woodworkers Association

1:09:44 hr | Last month

MWA358 - Travis Curtis

"Before we get started with this episode. I wanna talk about the texas woodworking festival happening on september fourth. Twenty twenty one. You're anywhere near texas. You need to be checking this out. So what is the texas woodworking festival. Ella can be best described as a mix of a beer festival woodworking theme farmers market. They're bringing together local woodworking organizations content creators furniture makers and tool manufacturers for a day of food drinks and things woodworking. Please visit texas. Woodworking festival dot com. There you'll find information about tickets additional information about the schedule and all the exhibitors inventors look forward to seeing you there. Hi i'm kyle barton. And this is the three hundred and fifty eight episodes of the mwa. Podcast sean was new myself. Visit with travis curtis outstanding woodworker chair maker instructor and man of many hat. So welcome to the show travis. Welcome forever oh no fan looking really looking forward to talk with you following you for years on the old instagram. And this is this is gonna be a treat but before we talked to travis. Let's get into what's happening in the woodworking news. Well being summertime. there's not a whole lot happening except for one thing. Lost our press has finally released their tight to dividers by a crucible tools lost our press crucible tools and those are now for sale. He's been teasing these. Quite a while but Gang are they sold out yet. Fattening sold out roads where that happened between the last recording in this recording but as of this recording he just cue seed new batch and those are going to the warehouse so all right so when yours as first question. Well i don't have the original well then spoke once you now so so i'm good. I'm good but afford those. Or i could afford them. But i have a bad habit of tossing things into the fire pit. No that's definitely something you wouldn't wanna toss department actually got mine when i visited a lost art press and these. This was blemished one. But i'll be damned if i find the blemish on it. Yeah yeah. I mean always good stuff for sure. I mean other than the manufacturing is any major difference between the bespoke and this one well. It's it's just you know. I hadn't been polished to the nth degree like the other ones were. I think they're still some some tool marks like you would get you know he basically says. Hey this is like you know if you ordered something from a stanley You know pre this is about you know the finish quality that those tools had that this one has the hinge part is a little bit different The one. I have the little screw that you can adjust the tightness instead of being a slot. It's got like Two little holes in he and with those we got a little tool a little putting a bit holder to adjust. Then you can take down the hall bathroom exactly exactly. That's what i was looking for. You know. I've been ryan bathrooms. But no i have not been scoping out the bathroom so let me back up. Get back. act to walk that back. So yeah so head on over to Crucible tools or lost our press dot com. And you should build a pick some up. I think there are one hundred ten bucks plus shipping so not too bad. They're about the same ballpark as some of the other Nice dividers out there so very competitive and it's important to have a good set of dividers exactly if yourself on i. I have just old old antiques. I picked up at some point in my life. They aren't fine but i don't make windsor chairs so i don't always got harbor freight stuff so there you go. Yeah this is nice but they were. They weren't exactly. Yep i got some anti excuse me travis. You said what the when you accidentally put them in the fire pit as her matter. Yeah i just put some nice chore on them makes them look. Weren't y'all have respite batum. Then you go back to port more stuff on hang. I oh are in their well Let's talk about our patrons and who do. We have to give a shout out to this week. Absolutely as always we give a big thanks to our transporters. A patriots borders today. We're gonna shout out sean. Nichols i'd like to say brother from another mother that well but he's got named name. Sean just spelled differently anyway. Thanks for your sports sean. If you would like to support us dear listener go Go to patriot. Dot com slash. Mwa podcast and she'll shove a couple of nichols our way there. Yes yes thank you so much shawn and you to sean yet. Right way to say the guy. Leave my company And i i. I got to say i'm the only sean again. Oh all the common name. Yeah i get to be that one again. There you go yeah you just gotta change your spelling to the correct one all my life minds men the correct one anyway. Well let's let's move onto. What in the shop so shaun. What's in the shop. I wrote down emergency b.'s. Next nation point because somewhat woodworking related and. I actually posted something. Instagram for once Because i got to use my lene nielsen forty-eight which i always love using in such a. It's such a niche tool if you don't know it's a tongue and groove plane you know. Quarter inch grew quarter inch tongue. You flip around the guide and you get it. It's perfect come to find out to make beehive parts sometimes So we took week off of inspecting our views and then came in that week later to find that one high one of our hives not both but one had decided to prepare to swarm The population was off the charts. There was a zillion bs on every surface inside the inside the hive and they make What are called swarm cells which are new queen cells And very strange looking they're long. They're perpendicular to the other ones. Whatever but we found six or seven of them and we went oh snap. We need to do something and so quickly. We've researched like what to do and you could. You could let them swarm. But then you essentially lose bees There is a neat kind of phenomenon when a hive is requesting that they. It's kind of a battle. Royale the first queen to emerge will if they don't like the existing queen they'll take her out the or they'll go out and and and basically remove the other queens that are growing. No ill kill them legitimately anyway so we had enough some some parts to expand and basically what we're ideal was to split this hive to it if they do they do this because a they're out of space or be they don't like their queen and we still we still knew. The queen was still laying eggs so we thought that's not the case they're just getting stuffed in here and so we. We didn't have to do this last year but we split. We had a box but no covers or anything so i quickly whipped up a a an inner cover nonetheless but a cover which is literally one by fours with a groove in the bottom quarter inch piece plywood in it but i use my tongue groove plane so it was a good day to make little curlicue shaves and and it went together. And they're fine. I then i quickly ordered and thinks amazon modern times because i don't have a b. supplier within two hours of me As far as parts and pieces go and so i i I got new parts new frame new new proper things to to house them and so all of a sudden now i have three heights my backyard than the two that we started the season with so interesting i i had no idea. Last year was so easy. Considering we didn't have issues and this year we've already replaced a queen. And now we're having them building new queens. We never saw that last year over. The entire season is just but this one that that did this. There are italian hive and they for whatever reason their population just went bonkers quickly. And so we're actually. It's y you should italian. Hi there italian so the yeah like all and they. They enjoy a nice chianti at the end of the evening. No it's it is. It's like we got two different. We got two different queens and one's italian ones russian and that is loads are like i wanna say species. I don't know where they their their origins. And there's there's corneal in italian russian and there's more depending around the world there's a lot more but yeah yeah right. Yeah it's like you're good to me except their female voice but there but yeah it is. It's an temperaments. Different colorings different. It is it's kind of interesting so like if you think of a b. is just a yellow and black striped thing that are some then have more black on their but than than their head or head area and assist. It's they're interesting. So we tentatively named are hives now italy russia and corner because the other. I got stuck in the corner of the art. We'll see we'll see how they go. But it's it's just like this ongoing experiment you don't know nature and you can't really control it you just kinda notice it and adapt and so And it's kind of a an interesting day and in the mess Are your neighbors to i. I mean yeah. We're not in a sub not in like a development. You know so to say my house is sixty five years old. And i have three quarters of an acre so we have land. I have neighbors. But they're like thirty to forty feet away from my either side of my house or garage so and everybody here has at least half nacre But so to say that might behind my house. I've got easily two hundred feet to my back fence. Sign off the back of my house and this yard is kind of like in the middle. We used their they. You know what. I'm just curious what they feed on. Well yeah i mean. They feed on flowers trees flowers. You know they're not that's the interesting thing because my like my one neighbor was like ono. I'm allergic like when you've been stung by a honeybee. All these ones in are siding. And they're really angry and they just you know these things saying i'm like bees. Don't do that wasps do that. And so these aren't the things that hang around the garbage cans at the park. That's totally different. These their pollinator so true. Yes i've been. Stung got stung twice the other day. If you're not messing with them though they don't care about you they really will go about their business. That being said. If i told you that i had some five to nine thousand bees in my backyard. It's kind of alarming. I was telling my friend when i picked them up. I literally because we had. We are last dive so we got new packages of bees. I drove to the post office. They said are you here for the bees. I walked in back. And i picked up a box with screen sides and i had six pounds of bees. You don't count them by number you count by weight at that point the you know. The a beacon is less than an ounce. It's lots and lots of them. And i just put in my car and drove him home with my windows up. You know. say it's alarming thing to get past because by by just talking about it can sound a lot scarier than it really is but in reality it's just kind of cool to see him and the only reason wherever endanger is because we're really up in their business where we're inspecting. We're looking at them. I mean we discovered this we last year. We got honey. You know there's a beekeeping but yeah it's it's crazy it's a the money hole of a of a hobby. It's a hobby. It is totally abby. We're not you know. No he's estimation if you spend more money than you make then it's a hobby absolutely absolutely and it's and it's super fun but it's it's fun because i get to do little projects like this every once in a while i next up. I think i've gotta build like an outdoor work table which will largely be. Probably some pressure treated lumber and really sturdy steel screen so it doesn't catch water just i need. I need the service to be mesh to let things fall through. I don't really care but it's now now we're going to spend our inspection. Time just grew by a third. So it's going to be like an hour of of checking things out there every time we go out and so we need a place to setting down to move around and you know little little stuff but yeah hobby. I like that if you if you're not making as much money as you're putting into it and it's a hobby that's absolutely. Your wife. looks told you honey. This plane's going to pay for itself someday someday. But that's about it you know it's And actually the the weather's been crappy some actually. We're lucky literally. I think two of the not rainy days is when we all this happened. It was it was oh crap. Check day in rain the next day rain next day and the next day i got new equipment to put out there and we put we include them last night. And it's just just roll with the punches. I suppose speaking of that guy on. What do you got going on. We'll we'll let me tell you about my jig hobby. Oh he has a hobby it. That's unfortunate when it could be a business kingpin of ge. Yeah right yeah no. It's a yeah. I am making a little money but you know if i paid myself a decent wage wouldn't me it's like there's something about you know being the boston. Pain yourself slade. One thing. I had i had a i had a number of customers. Think him so much that you know ordered the full boat. I mean almost like saying. I make and which is great but You know i was sitting there packing those orders up last couple of days by the way I shipped out my my Last order of the first and second way orders still got the third and fourth wave. I'm working on. But least i got those out the door but the latest one you have or is this just like you're saying all of yeah all of them but yeah i had a couple of about three customers said. Hey we want everything and And you know just packing those orders up to takes like about an hour you know just the packing and it's just like yeah. Yep yep that's where you got up. Sell the shipping and handling. Yeah i'm i'm i try not to. I actually what's funny with you know. I'm doing this stuff through fc so it's like charges shipping on everything. And i go while all this goes in one box so you know like after i pack everything up and get all the shipping charges than i have to come back and refund some money back to them. Most cases are a couple that everything was right on the money but most cases i had to refund of You know from a few bucks. Up to fifty bucks on some the internet's orders. I had but wow you want international though. See it's gonna pop some one of these days. It's just going to be cash cow walking. Yeah yeah yeah But anyway speaking of that. So Good friend of a greg. Pennington's larry grabner. If i'm pronouncing that right you might shirt travis. Graupner larry graupner grabner. Okay yeah i've never. I've never met him. Just internet type stuff but yeah i seems like a great guy but he ordered one of my new Spindle drilling guides for greg. So on that arrived. I think greg put it through his paces last week and himself in anabol- trades made a couple of posts about it. And all of a sudden here comes you know way four of order so that was great. I can't wait to try it out. I want to try out over there. It's it's it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool like i said i was inspired by the that pig albert came up with. I think i said this on another podcast. After i came up with this This jig so i'm sitting there and i'm going back and forth unit. You sean murphy. Yeah jeremic also so me and him We're going back and forth about the jagan he goes. This is reminds me of something any went back. And i think he pulled a fine woodworking article from like the seventies or eighties. That had my basic concept. The exact thing made out of wood. And i'm just like yeah. There's nothing new under the sun. I mean as totally independent. I never saw that article. Never you know just. Hey i have this idea as the same exact i'll have to. I'll have to post that I need to do that but yeah just like you look at it. Yeah that's pretty much what you came up with Made out of wood. You know Yeah i think mine probably slides a little bit better than those kind of things. Where creature comforts. But yeah it's the same concept so it's pretty cool. Yeah so anyway. So that's that's what i've been doing so i'm processing these new orders and will get those. Those in the mail is soon as possible so and also with his fourth wave. As i'm calling it also had another At another couple of people go yes. I'll take one of everything which which my inventory is totally depleted from other jigs so it's like okay As surprised larry get one of everything. Well we'll see. We'll see you know i asked him. Yeah we'll we'll we'll eat. Might he said right now. He said he's probably going to pick some up but he said he's doing ladder backs right now so moved back on. Unfortunately that's the next chick. Kyle comes up with a ladder backs. Oh yeah i gotta build a couple. I but Yeah yeah someday someday. We'll i got. I got the new book But this is how busy on. I've been still in the cardboard box. I'm sitting here looking at the cardboard box right now so and it's been cardboard box for about a week so i need to open that up and take a look at it but it's excellent one. Yeah yeah i'm sure it is ensure it is so we'll speaking of Someone that has a ladder back frenzies. Travis what are you working on your shot. The last few days I've been helping someone Make a reproduction ladder back. here county. lois there was a Freed slaves who made shares up until eighteen eighty two in all the latter back rockers. Well known here. The his chairs are collected. They know but richard pointer richer corner was his name. Okay what those tears are other collectible. But they're still kind of undervalued so there hasn't been a whole lot going on but the the historian came to a local gill meeting one day and he any in the in love with them and i just happened to mention to the Guy became here hunter roads. And he's like he's like his rebuff. I think he had a has an undergrad history. I forget what is being likes writing about these things. Related to Slaves and in slate mittens and slay people and so that kind of rain here in a cheer course. So he's it all things and so he's actually written an article I think they're editing now. For more than ten. A on richard pointer. Oh cool so he wanted to make on a shares asked me about helping make it and so i said of course you know because it's pretty. They're pretty interesting. Cheers really strange. They're like a lot of the latter bax. They're they're heavy and there. They know all parts thick returned. Actually used i think of you'll powered power source really. Don't arctic terns we had to you know was so departure turn then stretchers backpost from pose on a variety woods because here maple or a host and so that was fun attorney forty two inch long maple host. That's ancient three-quarters ho man you have laid that big no no. It's barely work. I mean the the tail stock was hanging about halfway off to bed. Yeah just well. I've seen some people make wooden beds. You know to extend their lays out. Yeah i was hoping that. I can get because i have a treadmill power later built years ago but everytime the last few times i've used something breaks on it and a given up on it but it's just not like quit somehow so that when you could cause you could make infinite links way but we did that so in four days. We got the post termed and dan tan maple did just fine. Yeah i was gonna ask you to so been parts to it. Okay so these. His cheers are are atypical. That faction to they're they're actually have been posted. There's not a lot flair to them. But they're they are bent so Alford so it's just interesting. All the parts are fun in scott. Big thick arms. This is a rocking chair. These megan's scott thick ours. It's armchair rocker And the he's coming back sunday to finish it up or couldn't quite listen memphis and so any stellar day so yesterday actually And so he's coming back sunday to finish for discount to finish cutting rocker slots hitting those fit. Oh cool so so. The the the rockers actually go into the aren't going into the rocker. Okay yeah yeah so. It's like a like a windsor rocker. Type the knife-edge. Yup exactly the the difference is that that mortices incheon free quarter. thanks man. yeah how. And did i mention. It's maple right. Yeah but it's it's air dried bipolar. So it's yeah. It's not quite a full season of drawing on it so not green but not but not dried somewhere between. Yeah have you. Have you seen david. Dr table salt technique. For cutting the slog and I love it. I think it's great. Because always name cut mon- i every time i go to gregson. He's teaching a class or he has a little router jig. That does the same thing. Yeah but i just always just tank cut them. I don't i don't make that many and then the people that come here for rocker class. It's us at one person our baby to people And they like doing that. They like the hand nature of it or something. Yeah he's not. You know. I'm not disparaging any of our till us. I mean if. I had one of those gigs. I would use thing every single talk because cool that that. That is fantastic. Well before we dive into more about the latter backs Tell us a little bit about you. Know how did you Stumble into becoming a quote unquote professional woodworker. I literally. I'm only like fell backwards. I guess and just like dodge. The pile of cow poop serving but It was you know by accident. Peop- i've made things long time but you know friends of ours was aa. Can you make me this. And you know and i sometimes i put op finalize like all right you know. Have time and I'll just do it now. So i know twenty twelve or so as making all the little barn would stuff that was very popular. Point Trying to convince them not to do it but still taking their money anyway. Sure sure help me by more tools essentially and Then i guess sometime in two thousand fourteen I was reading a blog and someone had mentioned about a chair maker that they were taking a bench class in those a chair maker in hendersonville and i was like. That's only twenty miles from here. Was i never heard of this. Always wanted to make a chair. But i've never really. I've made a few like Joined chairs square chairs or maybe trapezoidal. But nothing you know like a windsor chair. Traditional type cheddar though. I contacted greg pennington and He was having class. And so i went up there in december and was only i in the class made cheer in four days. Came back on the friday painted there and saturday. I finished it. I put show ac so never thought it. Make another cherry mind to the okay. Got that on. A system was a birthday gift. My wife and those it. I got it done in time for birthday. You'll still have that. We do as my favorite because when you rock it's a sack back. I mean those are comfy. Yeah yeah. They're konthi but the bow has come unglued and so we rock it has. It's wonderful creaky Nice greg now on doesn't glue those bosie cheer. Oh well that's that's really. This is a great design feature squeaky knows. And then about a year after that the Peter galbraith book came out the chair makers no And i i bought it. And i thought you trying to make a cheerier using nothing but this i'd already kind of become friends with greg and you know by lumber from him because he has if you seen and he was lumber storage area but he has a lot of lumber because of a sawmill. Don't always go there but So bought some pine seat and i went and purchased my own log and Just decided to use only the techniques in peter's book to make chair. And i decided i was going to make a writing Windsor which is like. I wouldn't i love is the most difficult Wins yeah it's about to say for your second chair you picked a doozy. Yeah and i. I made the chair Snow together still has lots of flaws because some of because the law that i had you know there's not the greatest of mother's of just the doing doing it on my own. I think every legs in the wrong hall. He'll gather though. Yeah there's The spindles don't quite a arc outright and the the you know the crest is now but i love the charity. Just because it's yeah the second one the first one. I made on my own making that chair. The chair bug yeah you just. I haven't been able to shake it. I hope i never do. Honestly i just i love it still. Yeah yeah it's hard to. It's hard to do You know for our listeners is gonna be old. This is one of my little yarns is like yeah I love flatwork and still occasionally do the flatwork cases in bookshelves. And all that kind of stuff but Yet chairs are something else when you make something and then you can sit down in it. Interact with it. It's just something to that. We're just fun so many different styles. I still had a made up with not necessarily new ideas. But things that i want to try different kinds of cheer you know so i still had little notebook for keeping things like that makes oregon and during that time to some A friend of my wife's Was working for a calligraphy company here in town and they they're woodworking person was retiring. They decided somebody to make in wells for them at that is like my hotel thing until Just this past january. I finally decided that i just couldn't do that anymore. Moore's is taking up too much time and it was fun. You never was fun. It was always about the money just because it kinda helped It was still made this viable business. Essentially until saying started kicking. Will i. I want to jump ahead. You know some of the chairs you make if you go to like your website and on the gallery you have a bunch of the chairs you make and some of them were painted and some of them have some some nice designed to set some stuff that from the calligraphy type work you know some of the the The work on the crest rails and little designs terrorists at something that you've done as always just been interested in art. You know i mean. I think every woodward is probably a frustrated artists probably and just always always done something with my hands saying you're a you guys remember the little. Forget what they're called but it was always like. Oh you can become an artist if you draw this turtle in no yeah. Yeah yeah yes i remember. That was a kid. I would always practice those things. I don't know i. I just never really had the gumption to send a man i never. I never felt my stuff was good enough. I think well. I have said you were outstanding. All the earth. Those tears stuff like that. It's just been. I like embellishing things. And i just had had it with black over. Red is nothing. i. I think it's a beautiful finished but i was done with it myself. I just didn't want to. I and one of the chairs on the site is a bright red with gold. Yup looking at right now. That's one that someone said that They were going on about some kind of pain africa. It was like you know you can't just use any pain. you gotta use. Whatever is like. I can use anything Spray playing. they're like no. You can't so that cheers break. Wow and the but the gold on it is not. I'm assuming a gold is actually a little pink. Okay no kidding. Wow that is fantastic. Were drawing on just. It's made to mimic a stencil. What i did was i. Don't hold stencil. Books photocopied it in large to get to that size and then i just know used copy. What does the the call a copy paper more orders carbon paper. They don't even call carbon. Yeah but same idea. Transfer paper transfer of the geese where they were gonna go and then just free. It's just like looking and just see in a little The hash marks like very motif of supposed to represent screening or something so right. That was actually a lot easier. You can train your hands a hold out on edge and drawl A pretty easy. But i found easier way to do. It is to take a block would just moved the block would down and that makes a trance rate against it. Yeah yeah exactly. It's a little piece of would. Just move it down Get blinds like that. And then the edges. Of course you just do by freeman. Because you have your outside and i just love that kind of stuff Playing finishes my grandfather worked for gibson. Was there a master fancher for them. Your read that in your in your Bio gas. So did you get to spend some time with him on finishing and you know because they do a lot of lacquer work on those guitar he's still survived until accuse eighty six eighty five but still houston's pretty old run. Winston cigarettes still felix eighty. Two doctor said i should probably quit. What's the point at the poi- Cancer in like. Oh now's the time because like no time. Ship sailed long. But yeah. I spent time with him because Our just always go their home. It was just you thing they lived in the same house At nineteen forty six or so. And so i've just always go there lot. But i never really spent time like learning finishing techniques few here and there but is your host the Never been afraid. That was the thing he that i've learned from him just by watching like don't be afraid and finishing because it can be fixed or you can start over at any point. Yeah yeah and Always make a sample if you're trying something new and sometimes even now. If i'm doing the same finish. I've done a lot but a different species would. I'll make a sample board. It behaves different. Yeah exactly exactly so too. So that's that's just a that that register the good old Rattled the apple rid from From chri lon or Fantastic yes that is cool. That is cool and yeah there's there's no doubt about it and speaking of spray. Finish you know as noticing greg today so this little date. The podcast was posting an him in an about A spray finishing some chairs with milt paint. Yes that's gotta be interesting. I just want to see the over spray on that. 'cause i don't know what of pressure you got to get that mule paint through that i mean even if he then it oh the crap out of it right i mean they got to i would. I would say i would think so. Yeah i think they. They did three coats. And so yeah. I mean it's probably is it's interesting You know. I've i've sprayed that Fake milk paint the journal finishes acrylic. i've sprayed that before and It was a holy mass but I got it done but yeah actual spraying milk paint you. Wow but yeah. If they got a technique for doing it that could be a. I could be really interesting. But i just wonder you know the over spray you know are you are not only the project but you know everything. Within thirty yards is coded with milk thing but what cleanup on milk. Pain is that. Just soap and water. Yeah so yeah. It's easy enough to clean. Yeah but if it dries at stuff turns to basically turns to stone right right but you know you got a couple of days it it takes a while for all at that point but yeah within you know once you know that true milk paint sets up for a good week or two. Yeah it's it's it's like a. I guess it's the calcium and stuff in the milk and whatnot but yeah yeah it's really really hard crazing. Which is where we jurors before we leave talking to your website. The top chair on your website. I forget what they call that. It's a continuous arm. Love chair of seat something. Yeah tan is okay. So it's it's edited or sometimes kissing bencher so the backs are everything down from the the lines. The arm if that truly is one bend. One-piece bent is two pieces. joined middle. Okay okay. Brought rigor into liz. Yep yep but i mean just beautiful lines underneath and on top. I mean that thing is awesome. Thank you that. Just got selected for the best tennessee exhibit. This starting here our state museum in october and for good reason i would think yeah. That's very very nice. Is how how big of a pain even if those are the backs identical and so the joint is kind of just a mirror image. Yes okay okay. And i guess that one did and you got the crystalline stretchers at is just fantastic. That's one of my. I love those things that just and and really i think it makes it look like lighter than it is kinda thing you know. Does the job but as dainty at the same time it is pretty light I don't know what that ways but most of those Continuous arm wins by themselves. For only about nineteen twenty. Pounds right is that is the seat on that. One piece is one piece. What what species is it. That's white pine okay. And how'd you call her that. That is milk paint. Okay both of the is both the same color note pain plum the The darker was looks black. Has this slow black mixed in it to now. That is a. That's a good looking chair or sure. And that one. The pain on that one took me a long time just just because you had to separate the two between basically the s curve of darker and and then the cells You know i. Yeah but but it's it. Because i was trying to get it right because i'd spent a lot of time developing a lot of time. You know our d. And making sure everything and a lot of time together. I don't know how much work it took. It took a li- definitely was more than two cheers. That's the thing. I yeah i mean. That's the thing about that. I mean i'm not a chair maker. So i'm i'm envious of anybody that can do this kind of stuff but you're you're playing in in open. Three dimensional space with that kind of stuff that the the arm bows out in away in that has to come back again. And now you're in this case you're asking to twice in one hundred eighty degrees orientation that one was that all the other ones that were singer those. I've only seen a small pitchers. I saw one photo before. I made that. That only showed center section of. That's why i need to try to write intersection. It really was just two chairs but upped against each other because that's sexy about six inches wide Is that's called snow okay. And so that's what took me a while to figure. That out was the scrunch everything to give together to get that nice s curve road and make it the same distance. The whole way does is kind of each sitters. Really close in this thing. I can't remember the dimensions. It might be list on the website. Thank it's about four inches or so And it just it kinda can't see each person a little bit out from the so it's kinda it's a it was a weird ideas pisa plywood now Bunch of holes in it. Because i i was trying to figure it out. You know did a lot of layout on a drill holes little fake arm stumps and try to get it. Get it just right in the end. I just had to go forward. After i got together. It worked out again. That was going to be my next question. Like how do you when you're digging something like that where you really only have a few images and you really don't have a real real solid reference you know. Are you full scale. Mockup kinda stuff to figure out angles lines. You know that has to be the the. I did full-scale just arm. Because i wanted to arm to match in relation with an s curve and then everything else is they're known because you know continuous arm rock. Yeah okay arm. Those angles are you know or you. Also there sit from where they are in relation to the harm. Blow to get those crillon to meet in the center you know. There's that center post in the chair. And i just hung up plumb bob from that to where they would meet and then that's how i drew my bending form for those. You know you you had your to outside. Legs and center and use make abandoned formed that matches the arc. Now assume all the legs on that are similar to like a bench. They're all the same Lengthen whatnot. yes yeah so did you like Did when you saddled the seat. Did you make a little extra d to get that back a little bit. I don't thinks so. Okay and recall if i did anything extra there. But i'm also one of those people. I've been experimenting a little bit with the saddling his There was a time where it was like. Only five eight deep is our go and that was life reason But i mean 'cause typical seven eight to fifteen sixteenths is the deepest point to those and so that one. I really don't recall whether it is. It's either eighteen seventy eight. So i didn't do anything extra that i can recall Okay you just just curious just Just a just curious about that but yeah. That is absolutely stunning jer. It just automated that. It's we're doing the worst radio ever. So if you don't go to windsor and more dot com slash seating and look at what we're talking about. Why you're you're listening. Yes you're you're doing. You're not doing yourself any favors. Because it i mean just bad radio. Sorry oh yes yes. We're true professionals at this. It shows good act. We'll moving along. So you know these are. These are some fantastic examples of your of your craft in the windsor Format but you really been doing some ginny chairs a lot lately. Yes thanks about that. Well how did you get into the jimmy chairs i i had. There's a used bookstore here. And i was just going through their little section because it's kind of a gold mine sometimes. I've found some pretty interesting tiles. But there was a copy of original. Make cheer from nineteen. Seventy eight or sedition and it looks like it never been open i was like what is this and also i didn't know i had no idea what it was. I just i started out as like all these things like nice letter bags and it was two dollars so has like can't miss a two dollars and then and i tried to make a chair using that book and it's next to impossible i addition but he's a lot to the nation and so i kind of put it aside. Not you know. I've made goal from it because it's tools pretty easy enough man. I just Kept adding trying to think of ways and then finally There were the video that i found out about and so a bar that in that kind of opened up and so i watched the video. And i made a couple of them and mostly was just kind of experience and then of course chester cornet who's also One of the one or two of his shares versus addition sent four cents. Not with third edition. But i guess. The property. Copyright or probably. Yeah but this thing. I know Christian company are big fans of gestures. Yes yeah as am i. I love chester corn for the audience. There he's another ladder back chair maker so she definitely look into his work. Yeah yeah yeah. yeah he's. He's a eclectic ladder. Back chair maker. i would say yeah. Yeah some rockers. With like four or five rockers. In all kinds of interesting thing tests youthful stuff but Dan there were a classic greg's and one of the participants had admitting through greg. I'm through instagram. Before and He asked if i had any cheers for sale. And so this was last year during the pain day. Makino some point. And i said yeah i got a few like i think. He said he was interested. In one of the latter backside may previously in. So i brought a couple that i'd done and he he loved it but greg fell in love with a purple and And so he bought it and he posted the and then from that we just took off. I mean i was getting orders. I mean i couldn't even pick up the phone without it ring and saying hey can you make me one of course And so that's what i've been doing probably last year so a little bit longer. I guess just making as many of those as i could get out the door Kind of how you know how i got into making those was just because right ball will. How did the In the so you've had a chance to Run through the new addition three. Yes so so. How does that compare as far as You know i had the. I never read the first edition i did. I do have the video. The ginny did back in galle. What was that late. Eighties early nineties. Something like that ninety. Four okay and So i haven't cracked that the third edition. So how is that as far as Actually building a chair from the book. It is excellent. You could roll you. Purchase that book and make a ladder back. Chick really make a genie alexander style. I mean everything is there. There's no reason you couldn't ask the log make that chair and then you mean you don't really need a log. Has some good air. Dried material can make one from air dried materials. Well yeah it's a great book it's a it's a. It's more of a a step by step process of how to make share And it's it's a highly recommend if you really really want to make one of those latter back tears. That's the way to go go to your local used bookstore. Well we'll know we're talking about the addition okay. The line the copy the by yeah you can let law star press. Just the amount that they They went late. June is when shipping. So they're out and they will probably always be in production. I can't imagine them ever not producing that. That walk. yeah it seems to be a crowd favourite. The on and on you and i think lost our press was trying to get this book out the door for years. It just took some time with With what jenny wanted to do and was mother twenty do and copyrights and all that kind of stuff but they finally got finally got it done and out the door and yeah you can pick up a copy for the low low price of thirty seven dollars but as it just been said you you have all the information in that thirty dollars purchase to build your own chair very comfortable. It's the most comfortable ladder back. You'll ever sitting you are you. Wow cool cool well sit one like oh it's another ladder back and they sit in different and then and i love some of the photos that you take occasionally of you you know just standing on these things all the weird angles to try to bring them the arkansas test. Arkansas test called. That's peter fondues. Where i heard that from aids. There was a chair maker in arkansas. I forgotten his name but that was how he said that good latter back could stand test of time. If you good balance on it you can stain balance on. It did not come apart after you just completed than it should be. Okay all right. All right should will will Tell us a little bit about some of the classes that You teach and they are. They run the gamut from ill. It's anything to do with cheer making or you know. Somebody wanted to private class for something if we do that. But the ones that. I have listed this year. The remainder of the year have her just lower back. Because people have been asking to you the people what they want sometimes and But also teach you know windsor chairs. That got started through greg. Greg a really good friend. So i helped him to july classes four. I decided to to teach my own But they are a latter back or windsor chairs primarily as pretty much any style of windsor and specifically the ginnie alexander ladder back shit. Say okay cool. Well that's great and if someone wants to take a class where should i go to a sign up either through instagram. Which is t. e. curtis one three. Okay the website which is Windsors and more dot com. Click great webpage that. Yeah she taught herself how to do it and get it all right fantastic. He's not hard for that. Though she said but that out there will tell one of the things that i thought. Fascinated is your occasionally built some fun chairs and i think you have the sideways rocker with the umbrella and some other things like that. That is just fantastic. Tells a little bit about. I guess that's more your wins the gold nature there. Yeah i mean. I've always been a clown restaurant artists too. So i always wanted to make a sideways rockers. I've seen a few of them in you know other books When i call catalogs there really just the chair books and a balloon back is not there. Like my least favorite windsor chair ever hide is they remind me so much of all the really poor factory chairs they do. A nice blueback is nice. Put semi disparage anyone. You'll make their what they consider the brightest. Belinda heck my taste. Yeah so. I wanted to make one of those because i had made once dollar had made so. It's like only do that. I wanna make this is rocker so let me do that. And one night in the middle of the night. I just happen to think. I wonder if i put umbrella on top of that would look like it. So i thought well i'm going to. I could probably make my own umbrella. So i was researching making umbrellas espino tate way too much time to try to teach yourself to make an umbrella found the lady in los angeles that imports from her native thailand there. It's it's handpainted. Oilcloth bamboo umbrellas. I went to greg. And i was like i showed him this piece of paper's like this is what i wanna do because we sometimes we get together and just make something is because they were both busy making cheers and teaching doing all those other things that we don't get to make Chairs that something we want to make all the time and so it was swapped votes dislike. Let's do something this away. You know so. We get together and make something i took. It took this drawing of this. You know this Umbrella chair and and he was like ahead to runners and he's like i wonder how would even work if you just had one runner and so i was like well. We're about to find out some ads what we did. I showed him how to make one of the genie. Alexander ladder back. Sorry there because he'd wanna make one of those. That's what he did and i worked on this Bloomberg sideways rocker umbrella chair. And the oilcloth thing i bought from this lady came in finally had that red white and blue twirly pattern on the top and so i wanted something to go with that. So that pain is actually. It's a the white is lacquer. It's a spray lack that you can buy at the big box stores. Lowe's home depot. Whatever they are. And then i just I got a bunch of sponges. Kirks cut circles out of different sizes. Just like going to town with making dots different patterns just something to be different from the the swirl top and will that's fantastic journey first time i saw that on. Instagram busted out laughing But then i want. I want to sit in that. I think everyone should sit in cheerier because it is probably the most fun chair ever. I mean it's it's it's terrible chair terrible rocker. But you put them together and just something about the combination. Yeah and the first runner. We had it on it. You know. I don't think i laughed at heart the long time. 'cause great not that. It's not that bad just you know. It was soon as you said that the little far novelist dumped him out. He caught himself. We both just die laughing. The whole week remaking playing we were like a couple kids just giggling the whole time one that ever sits in. It gets a giggle out of it so it can't be bad year. No no not at all not at all. That's fantastic well So what's next for you. Is there anything you want to promote that. We haven't covered or anything that Is on the horizon for you that you want to let people know about grill. Everything is build up right now for his first classes and i haven't decided yet on. Well that's a good problem to have A very good problem they have. It is a good problem to have in fact i've got a couple of aren't listed on there because sometimes past students. They'll say hey. Can you do a private class for this. You know having you know so. I'll do that. And they bring their other friends. So that's good too but Passed this year. i haven't got anything planned. I typically delight planning things out to far. Because i feel like sometimes i have plane so much in this year. I've got so much planned but One of the things that i'm most excited about is for myself is in august. I'm going to go to don williams house again. It'll be the third their aim. We're gonna make a gratitude unlock. Oh wow yeah Some really really looking forward to that cannot wait because it's so different I i hope to paint it Maybe not completely traditional with oil based paints but definitely gonna put the Traditional pinch drives. Because it's pinstriped out the it and it's got a lot of peacock feather detail on in Try mahan thad. I'm really looking forward to be fantastic. Yeah he's gonna have a video series on that. I believe right yes. He's been working herb a good while. Yes we're trying to think. I'm pretty sure he's got that done I don't know what else he needs to get done for that. But i'm glad that we're finally get in class done though. Because i really want when he mentioned this. We've all we've talked about lasting times. I've been this house now twice for a couple of things and every time he's got the cherries attic and unlike you know. When are we gonna do this. I really got to make one. Because he's the. I mean it's not like i couldn't figure it out but why would i wanna figure something out my very done all work to do an And his reproduction is a great reproduction. I've seen a couple of originals at yale's furniture studying his reproduction is excellent. And it's just such a quirky little cherry. I i'm just looking forward. Wanna say i might have. It was either that or the peacock share which i think is pretty similar that i saw him. He had at one of the as an. I saw one of the originals up. Henry ford museum as far as the same chair yeah. It's incredibly light. Yes in in somewhere. There's there's a photo of tom. Vino sitting in it. And i remember him don showing us like. This is literally drywall. Screws holding this together. Like really he goes. Yeah and that's what they used. I mean not drywall. screws descru- their stuff together. It was it was utilitarian. It's dovetails nails and screws. Yeah yeah but so like. That's that's gonna be so fun to make. Yeah the original was Made there's a few of may between eighteen fifteen and eighteen twenty The way back in. Somebody's still decided. Let's makes a windsor chair but just completely different as far as a tally put it together. Yeah very cool that that one. I remember i actually at the it and it it talking about comfort in a chair i it. It's so light that it it kinda it bends to you a little bit it gives. Yeah because those things are so thin eliminations and stuff and then just like yep it just it allows you to be accepted into it in a in a really really nice way. That'll be super fun. I hope don don. I haven't gone to his blog in a long time but he was usually pretty good about documenting that stuff documenting the video process. Yeah so yeah so yeah. I'm i'm very interested to see the video process. But now i know someone that's actually going to go and and Get a a lesson from him. What how to build it so listen attic video. 'cause you know i think he was trying to make you know and i may be overstepping the bounds and this was inputting mortgage and don's mouth but i think that he was worried in the beginning that you know he may not be able to. People may not be able to actually make it from the video. But i think it's been my experience. Some videos like that that ninety nine percent of people by those and never intending to make them they just want to see the process. Yeah yeah yeah. I think that's that's totally correct and analee someone documenting that process. Because i think yeh figure out a lotta the yes techniques on his own and you need to have that stuff you know well you know as curator for the you sonja museum. He knows that more than hiker. I suppose but Yeah to document that process of that you know. Hey you know. At least somebody can reproduce this based on the information that he's discovered yeah has fantastic hersher. Well let's move onto our fortnightly beer choices. So i guess. I will start as off and i'm having a beer from a local texas berry shot heights and it's It's a throwback to the eight bit tight video games as called mini boss and it says all your hop are belong to us. Oh various reference. Sorry exactly very old reference so it is a Apa but it's not a tremendously it's like six percent ipa. But it's a really nice Semi hoppy So it's i like it there. You go all can Yeah it's all can. Yeah small smallest smallest executive. Not quite that bad. It's it's the twelve ounce girl but yeah it's But yeah it's a local brewery here in houston so cool so sean what are you drinking so somewhat in reference from are absent co host mark. Because he he had this metal. But i picked up. Some doctors shed hazy. Oh but gentle very nice. Okay based I i didn't poured out to see how easy it was by name. But it's a very nice kind of mellow ip See how heavy it was Seven seven something percent alcohol so little little on the heavy side but very very very very good smooth. It's not like the my wife likes the ip as it really kinda. Terry you. and i'm not so much that but but this one is this one took upon. The back won't last very long. I know that well shit show like some of the texas. Ipa's then yeah. Yeah and from what. I understood new england as well. There's definitely some i mean. Dogfish makes their their sixty ninety in one. Twenty are all pretty pretty heavy handed on the bidder hops and yeah she she likes. Those will cool cool so travis. Do you have anything to recommend that. Yeah drinking unsweetened tea with great kool-aid in it. Oh fantastic grape. Kool aid all right. That's that's something new to me. I don't drink i'm a teetotaler. Nine hundred one your goods find from drink out care. What does there. But i what Is there something about grape cooley. That makes it good. I'm just a great All artificial grape seems the stuff that tastes like purple great by sees a great a little Freeze pops My wife Is my birthday Recently so she always gets me a some of the wax mustaches because they're great flavored. All my gosh really. Oh yeah alright. Everything raping except for. I've i've never had a great pie being right but you know issue you know the the so you can a cherry pie topping. What's different you know. It's a little drier. Maybe maybe it would end up being a raisin pie. Probably could be bad. Yeah yeah. I mean that's baked. Baked raisins is fine. We think that you know. Maybe with the like concord grapes. It wouldn't be so bad all right. I make a mean cheesecake. I might look into how to make it a grape elite cheesecake. So oh jeez. Oh gosh aright. It's it really. The cheesecake topping is pie filling. So you can just take the filling up when they get out of it and basically. Yeah yeah yeah. I'm a weirdo. I don't like the not into alcohol the cheesecake. There's two things to stay away from probably plenty of vices. Sure sure will there. You go well With that sad. So travis working folks find you on the interwebs that would be at windsor's more dot com and the instagram of course is where everything is happening for me So t curtis one. Three is the the handle. I guess is what the kids got. The kids call it. Go guy working. They find you. Will you can always find me. A dot com on instagram. Or k barton r k barred kabore on youtube so To search for me there. And you'll find all the latest that i posted which i've actually posted a little bit so anyway seen those go find them there. So sean what about yourself. I'm pretty much shawn w. seventy eight everywhere. You can look in that that brings us to. Our reviews is short one today but bills yard. You comment on our. I don't even know where this came from. And the the most random well not the most random but his comment is keep on rocking in the free world. So reason to listen to us the bills yard. He's a he's a chair maker out of england too great great guy and yeah i think he left that on her instagram account and love hearing from anybody from anywhere so it take his advice. Keep on rocking in the free world as yeah yeah and if you wanna see someone. That's just churning out to chairs. He's a great follow on you. Answer grammy's bills b. i. l. l. s. yard so Keeping with her chair making theme tonight to give him a follow. If you don't already there you go and that just about wraps it up for the show if you haven't already please such his show on the pod catcher of your choice just search for the modern woodworkers association and while you're there please leave us a review. You can follow us on instagram at mwa underscore podcast and if you look to support the podcast go over to patriotic dot com slash mwa podcast but the best thing you can do is tell. A friend or two mouth goes a long way sharing artists cushion.

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Impeachment, Marlboro College, and DNA in Medicine

The Dave Gram Show on WDEV

1:36:59 hr | 2 years ago

Impeachment, Marlboro College, and DNA in Medicine

"The from Radio Vermont. It's the Dave Graham show on. WD It's your show about the people places and the issues that matter the the most of you. Now here's your host Dave Graham Good morning reminded is Friday November the eight thousand and in nineteen and so glad to have you with us this this morning. We're going to be Having an interesting show we try to vary up the topics ear and sure enough. We've got three good ones on the docket today in the latter our our the program. We are going to be joined by Dr Bob. I believe it's Wildman. He is with the University of Vermont Medical Center which this week made a really interesting announcement that they are going to start offering patients. DNA testing is sort of part of routine medical care and DNA. Testing can be used to find out whether a patient might I have a genetic predisposition to numerous diseases. I guess they're going to be checking for a hundred and fifty four different diseases from what I understand and under and this is obviously a brave new world in medicine we're going to be talking with With Dr Wildman about what it all means and what patients ought to be thinking about this kind of stuff so in the latter part of this hour we're going to be Have a visit with Dick. Sonic Richard Sonic the chair of the board of trustees. He's a Marlboro College. Much loved little college down in the southern part of the state which had been looking for a suitor. Three Vermont colleges have closed this year this this year in an era of the real struggles for small liberal arts colleges as enrollments declined. The demographics just aren't as many young people as has the war years ago coming through that age bracket that typically goes to college and so many colleges are are really struggling to attract students Marlboro has about two hundred students. They're going to be absorbed into Emerson College in Boston and We're GonNa talk to you a dick. About what all that means. How the Maral Marlboro legacy will be maintained to any extent that it will and also GonNa ask them? What's going to happen with the Marlboro Music Festival? WE'LL world-class famous classical music festival that occurs on that campus in the summertime. So we'll find out a lot about that. But I I wanted to bring in our guest of Peter Galbraith. Peter is has worn numerous hats in his long career. He is a former Vermont. A state senator. I think he's known in this state in part for that role Outside of Vermont. He has been involved in the in the diplomatic core for in the United States for a time he was doing some sort of freelance diplomacy over in the Middle East involving the Kurds for awhile. He's been in the oil business some and he he has A real interesting. I think perspective on the overlap between politics and diplomacy and why we would be interested in the overlap between politics and diplomacy right now. Well and there's one word that would sum up the answer to that and that is Ukraine. Maybe maybe two words Ukraine and trump anyway. My first guest. I believe Peter. Galbraith is on the phone with us this morning. Good Morning Peter. Good Morning Dave how are you doing well. I'm I'm doing fine Looking at the flurries outside but otherwise tonight's day that's all coming. We're going to get more of those. Little White Particle will slow down from the sky in the coming months. So you're ready for it and anyway I wanted to check in with you this morning because there's been so much going on with the impeachment inquiry in Washington and and I just thought you know you might have an interesting perspective on on all of this Tell me first off. This idea that that a president isn't into the United States would go to a foreign country and ask before country for To do something in exchange for. US aid is is not particularly new. I mean Bernie. Sanders is campaigning now on saying that. US aid to Israel ought to be conditioned on better treatment of the Palestinians I mean you could do and I've heard I've actually read a call by Republican columnist. who calls adequate bro quote outraged about that But this this is the the trump Ukraine matter is a little bit different in the sense. That you know Bernie. Sanders is not doesn't really have a personal stake. He has he has an maybe maybe idiological purpose or a political purpose in trying to change is really behavior regarding Palestinians but he He doesn't stand to win or lose election. I don't think based on On on what happens on what the country does. Is this unprecedented in your restoration. Well certainly what. Trump did is unprecedented but it has to be distinguished from Conditions that are placed on foreign assistance. which happens all the time I worked for fourteen years for the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and I handled the committee's main legislation including of foreign assistance and conditions? And I were to attach conditions for example in nineteen eighty one when Reagan administration wanted to send assistance to Pakistan Attached conditions on human rights and restoration of democracy on nuclear non-proliferation And and so it goes does Assistance is often conditioned on policy. But that's done actually by the Congress Now the Congress Chris may delegate some discretion to the president about the use of appropriated funds and in fact You know the president. Ah Ken withhold funds if they find for example they're being used corruptly or countries violating human rights standards and all sorts of things but what trump did of course was to condition the assistance which had been appropriated and which was for the purpose of aiding the Ukrainians against the the Russians who had invaded Ukraine are fighting there on a political Investigation negation of of a political opponent and an investigation under Ukrainian law not under US law. I mean there's no allegation in any any of this any suggestion that that there was anything done wrong under US law. He was trying to gin up a Ukrainian investigation of of Burris. SMA The company neither one hundred hundred Biden under Ukrainian law no allegation there either. But that's not the job of the president of the United States because there been any credible credible allegation out there that there was anything untoward about I mean you know other than somebody getting a seat unaccompanied board because of their. They're big name. I think that has happened before. I'm sorry all the time. Well okay so one hundred Biden gets a seat on this Barista board because I'm sure somebody had Barista thought boy. It sure would be cool to have this guy who is the son of the vice president of the United States on our board Just kind of as a as nothing beyond that really but was there. It was already allegation that once having gotten this this seat in a fairly a common method for doing so which is having a big name any allegation that Biden had done anything wrong after after that None whatsoever certainly not and not under. US law or on under Ukrainian law and instantly I don't think the company was likely looking for Hunter Biden to influence. US policy or influences spot. There I think probably they were trying to send a message to the Ukrainians that they had You know that they had connections but not that they were connections. They wanted that they really could use it was it was related to Ukraine rather than to the US. Yeah I mean. There's many many times I I look around and I say why are people famous and and it does seem to be in many cases that they're famous because they They have it name. I'm thinking these car tat. Car Dash Sheen's Robert Dash and of course was the famous L. A. lawyer involved in the Oj Simpson case. And so on. And and and now I guess his daughters are celebrities. And you kind of go. Why I mean what's what is there? Were other their special talents. Or whatever I don't know I a.. And so a lot of times the celebrity is. I've never understood it. Which is why I've never even approach being a celebrity myself but But you know I used to say even during the Oj Simpson case. Is that You know it was a big deal just because he was famous and I mean unfortunately these kinds of domestic violence cases happen all over the country All the time and but the country became obsessed with the trial of the century. OJ Simpson allegedly committed Domestic violence in ended in death. And so anyway I started that grass here but I do think that a lot of times there is just this big name culture out there that is probably what got hundred Biden. That seat on that board. Yeah I'm I'm I'm sure that that's the case and As the point happens all the time Condoleeza Rice who was George Bush's secretary of state in in his second term She went onto the board of Exxon Mobil and and it was because she was on the board. I obviously she knows. Nothing has no expertise in oil But she was on the board and that was how rex Tillerson The CEO ended up being the secretary of state was on her recommendation. That's really interesting. And so again. The connections big names in there you go. That's how that's how things get done. Folks I and and I guess Well let me let me ask you about the democratic inquiry here because I was reading something on. CNN this morning where just talking about their overall strategy Do you feel that the case is getting to the point. CNN was SORTA describing it as overwhelming overwhelming evidence. Now I think I think the case is completely airtight. that in fact of trump held up Duly appropriated assistance for an illegal and improper purpose namely to get The president of Ukraine to announce an an investigation of Joe Biden and Hundred Biden as well as to investigate the surf fantastic Conspiracy story that That wasn't it wasn't Russia that interfered in the US elections but it was Ukraine So yeah I I I think that That case is airtight tight and and it's told By career professionals in the US government not not by political people Bill A Bill Taylor the acting ambassador in Ukraine who is a career foreign service officer a veteran And and and along along Can't who was testifying yesterday. George can't Jennifer Williams who was a foreign service officer Sir. Who listened in on the call? I mean to some degree. You have to think For a president engaged in probably criminal conduct wasn't very clever. I mean you don't I am perhaps not really aware of. Ah that what he was doing was criminal because obviously isn't wise to You know all Gaijin extortion in our bribery With lots of different witnesses especially witnesses who are professionals and not not your political associates. Extortion sure bribery identical the Assad Eugene Robinson the Pulitzer Prize. When he call him was the Washington? Post had a very interesting column this morning where I think the headline was something like. Let's drop the Latin. Then call it what it is. which is he said? Bribery his theory of the case. Is that basically. The the president is is Asking a public official in this case basically the president of Ukraine to do a specific act in this case reopen an investigation in exchange for something of value. which is this this Military aid and visit to the White House and so That all that those those are the pieces that fit that a fact pattern pattern Best described as bribery. According to Eugene Robinson do you buy that well I think the the White House visit certainly would be something of value of being offered which and that would therefore constitute Bribery I I would argue a and I think this is not a almost a distinction without a great difference that in the case of the military aid it was extortion because the military aid was something that was already due to go to Ukraine. It had been appropriated aided Ukraine there were no conditions on it And the president was holding up. That aid extorting An announcement of a an investigation. Yeah I mean I guess there's I guess there's other reasons for that. Maybe it was both at once in the sense. Short happens all the time I mean Eh. These are these are very much related crimes. Yeah Kinda almost two sides of the same crime in in bribery. It's if you do something something good's going to happen and and extortion is more like if you don't do something something bad's going to happen so we have a couple of callers online. Let's go to Tom Ismailia. Good Morning Tom. Tommy there This is from starts Bro. Richard Snacks. Okay let's go to tax pro then. Good Morning I I read her morning. this is kind of addressed to Dave Couple of weeks. We talked about the The media's use use the terminology to enhance the political division of I just want to point out that Used for those terms that you call. That's the democratic investigation about five minutes ago and really we talked about it. It's really a health investigation or congressional investigation not a democratic. Ah Well of course I recall this phone call now a couple of weeks ago Do you think that if Democrats weren't in control of the house it would be happening the Jim Jordan. We're speaker of the House. It'd be happening the legal body. That's doing an investigation. What is the name of the illegal body during the investigation? Well it is several house committee so yeah there you go okay thanks thanks for the call I appreciate it. Let's He's Tom Tom let me just chime and I must say I agree with rich because I you know I it. This is how representatives is a duly elected Institution this Article One. I mean I you know we could of course referred to partisanship all the time. Instead of Calling Governor Opener Phil Scott. We call them Republican Governor Phil Scott or you know the Republicans Supreme Court but You know we. These are elected did institutions and houses fulfilling constitutional responsibility. Is I understand what you're saying I I also think though that Kind of the in Brielle politic world As I said if Jim Jordan were speaker of the House this this investigation would not be happening. L. Hillary Clinton who got the most votes president. This investigation wouldn't be happening because she wouldn't have done it. Well lots of there were lots of investigations of Hillary Certin Just finally closed the email investigation about three weeks ago. So just we as you didn't do something doesn't mean she wasn't going to get investigated or in the case of Benghazi over and over again a and So I mean I I hear what you guys are saying both rich. And and you and you Peter and I. I agree as a matter of of consort of formal government functional whatever it is the House of Representatives it will It looks like very very likely. Bring articles of impeachment run against the president and it is that the Senate will adjudicate his his guilt or innocence or not guilty verdict and and in decide his whether he will be removed from office or not I do I do think though that in there is a sort of news media shorthand happens opens quite a bit and I agree with that that it is the house. Democrats who are carrying the mall on this investing majority. Yeah I mean we also house we can refer to them instead of president trouble con Republican trump. That's okay I wouldn't be bothered by that very much and actually that raises an interesting question. I mean you've been around politics for a long time. I saw some statistics recently indicating that there there've been one hundred fourteen criminal convictions connected active with presidential administrations in the last fifty years. What number of those hundred and fourteen do you think we're connected with Republican administrations versus Democratic Administrations? Aw I think it's well over a hundred with Republicans if you do Nixon And who had about about eighty and who who's about twenty Twenty four twenty four and You know and then you had I think Iran Contra two and in Clinton was leading to one conviction in eight years Well you know. That's actually I. It's a lovely statistic. But there was one David portray us who is the director actor of the CIA was convicted of Of a crime of sharing classified information with his biographer who also happen to be a mistress. Oh right I'd forgotten about it. I don't know why it's left off. Course he wasn't a political appointee a four star general but he. He was convicted of crime. But still in eight years one crime and of course it was not a crime of of greed Well as so many of the others but what are you. Did you see some continuity here a lot of people SORTA regard trump is sweet generis Harris or something. He's one of a kind never before. Never never again or something. But is there continuity here. There's some continuity between Nixon and trump I sometimes with them. I think of. What Carl Marx said about the Coup of that made Napoleon's the polling the third. The temporary said Thinking back to the first Napoleon history repeats itself the first time tragedy the second time farce and there's some helmet between Nixon and and and trump of that But you know in many ways they I I I I would say that the Nixon Watergate was was more serious in the sense that you had smart. Ruthless people engaged in a Very systematic subversion of the constitution and corruption of the political process as well as You know waging enlarging the Vietnam Vietnam War into Cambodia illegally whereas a lot of out of of trump is is so incompetent impulsive impulsive I mean the the real issue. It seems that he you know he's really mentally fit for the job that he has And so it's a it's different. It's so obvious what he's doing. I I think the other difference. Though between the the Nixon era and this era is the unfortunately the Republican Party which clearly sees everything that all the rest of us e and yet is is so intent on power in so divorced from any ideology that call all they want to do is keep the Guy Office. I mean it's quite extraordinary right to think of the Republican Party. Which is the party of what a fiscal responsibility of family values and of national security which means standing up to the Soviets now the Russians? And you have a guy who cozying up to Putin Who Mayo is election to Russian interference who is thrice-married And you know makes payments to porn stars cheating on his wife and who. We'll put up the largest deficits in American history. I and nobody seems to mind. We've gone through the looking glass. Do we have tom on the line. Still Yeah can you hear me Yup. Good Morning Yeah Warning Guys I. I guess I'm surprised at Dave. You are sort of seemingly smearing the entire Republican Tardy based on nist. This crazy guy. We have in the way Peter you too. I mean gene. The Republicans are the Party of Abraham Lincoln and in our neck of the woods. Dean Davis George Ache and they'll Scott. That's not a it's not a bad shouldn't be equated with with Scandals and negative evil people. We have this. Yeah I mean I sorta Soda. I WANNA go there Tom I I really. That's my instinct is to is to have that image of the Republican Party and yet if you look at the statistics the last fifty years fifty years is a pretty good sample size. I'd say in the last fifty years of of American politics. We've had a hundred and fourteen hundred fifteen convictions. apparently if we add per portrays hundred and fifteen convictions of people connected with presidential administrations and and the vast majority You know one hundred it looks like a hundred and thirteen of them. are connected with Republican administrations. And you kind of have to look at the the numbers and say what is going on here. Don't you look at look at Bill Clinton look at you know. There's been a lot of lot of examples of scandals on the other side. Well there were one or two who in Clinton I mean you could look at the stats. That song pedia look up. Look look up about convictions connected with presidential administrations and. That's what that's what it will be over when I did that and I you know yeah. I keep in mind. old-fashioned New England moderate Republicans. How are they doing in their influence in national politics these days? Yeah I mean I listen. I'm sympathetic then. What you're saying Tom I also I think we need to look at the reality of the situation and and you know the numbers? Don't lie so I appreciate the call though I mean you. You know I can do it with with Tom here. Having served in the in the Vermont Senate You Know I. I worked very closely with my Republican and colleagues Have sometimes to the annoyance of My of the Democratic leadership in fact. I think it's fair to say Dave you covered it often to the annoyance of the Democratic leadership But you know they Vermont's different kind of place their sensible people how we have a moderate intelligent capable April bowl normal governor with whom I agree on on on many issues but and and when he campaigned he for governor because I was running for governor that year as well we were often in forums and he constantly kept saying that he was a against trump. Wasn't gonNA vote for him. Didn't vote for him So that it is I think in Vermont. We have at least in the elected part of the Republican Party. We have people who who put country first but unfortunately unfortunately it's not just the record of Republican Presidents And and and corruption their administration. It is the fact that the Congress the Republican Congress when it was in control was not prepared to do anything about any of that and they continue in lockstep support of trump Through in all of this stuff through the Muller report through the Ukraine business and and just through through ordinary business interests. And that's all you have Peter Galbraith. I really appreciate you joining me this morning. Running out of time here but I I I thank you very much for. Forget on the phone with us. David Lloyd. Already we will be back with more than eight Rancho pouting little laws and words from CBS News. In a couple of weeks sponsors Marlboro. College Trustees Chair Richard. Aw We'll be back folks. Take the stress out of holiday shopping. At the almost world-famous Warren store. We have something for everyone on your list from toys to beer jewelry. Three to wind clothing to your walks we have a wide selection of outerwear for men and women all twenty five percent off from some of your favorite brands. Such as cool Royal Robbins Rana saved the duck and more your holiday cards rap candles pottery Snow Globes always friendly knowledgeable customer service and Free Gift Wrapping. Come for lunch at Rockin Deli than head upstairs to Shopping Heaven Fun Funky Okay and Friendly the Warren Store mainstream Warren Village newsradio. WD FM and am now back to the day. Bram show what one of the things we've been following on the Dave Ramsey show here in recent months has been the trials and tribulations of Marlboro College much loved a small school down in the southern in part of Vermont Vermont as seen three small liberal arts colleges closed this year Green Mountain College in Poland Ecologist Saint Joseph in Rutland southern a college in Benetton Southern Vermont Colleges announced. I think the other day. They're looking at selling Their campus to a private. Prep School from New Hampshire. So we'll have to follow Figure out whether the that private prep school from New Hampshire is moving lot lock stock and barrel to to Bennington. Or what's what's going on there but We want to focus on Marlborough today in particular because we have a guest. Who's been on the show now? This is the third time third. Time's The charm. Maybe Dick Sonic Richard. Sonic is the he has been around to Vermont public life for a long time. Of course he was the Commissioner of the Department of Public Service. I believe at one point. He was longtime chair of the Vermont. Vermont Public Service Board So knows a lot about deregulation and Then it's been in a private law practice in my period for a number of years and also so is the chair of the Marlborough College Board of Trustees and He's GonNa Phyllis in on the latest doings at that. Campus down in down near Brattleboro just west of Brattleboro up in the hills there Good morning addict saw. Thanks for coming in good morning. Thank you excuse. Me and Wanted to check in with you. Just fill us in the big news from Marmer. This week is what it's very big news. Marlboro will change. It will move off. Its campus and become the Marlboro Institute of Liberal Arts and Interdisciplinary Studies at Emerson College College in Boston in Boston. Yes Emerson is known for for its are sand communications and so on in that area but it also has an end to pendant institute which teaches Liberal Arts and interdisciplinary studies that exists now. But it's a small part of Persson. We will make it a a big part because our faculty are tenured faculty and our Tenure Track Faculty will all be calm faculty at Emerson if they wished to and our students will move over also to Emerson. And we're we're delighted in this way out of what was a tough situation financially for US similar blur to the colleges that you were reciting had folded already From what I recall Marlboro has stronger down at than other colleges didn't it. Yes yes. We had an endowment have an endowment But we were about to get have to slice way into it closed close to twenty percent We were going to have to apply toward this year's budget and it would decrease the endowment down pretty fast asked like over probably two years. We probably only have enough left to close out the campus. Teach the students who were there and Grant severed staff everybody and it just was a it was a bad prospect so the future projections were not good and you decided to get ahead of it. And and work out this deal with Marlboro Co with Emerson College Emerson College actually Interesting School It's in the Back Bay in Boston right. If I recall correctly we had somebody actually graduated alumnus ever college as a guest on the show earlier this week. The comedian Steven Wright Join me for a while. And he's a very funny guy and was actually telling me stories about when he was painting the dorms. I guess. He had a job painting the dormitories at At Emerson College and they may have been enough a fuel for his later joke about when he would say It's a small world but I wouldn't want to paint it and He I asked Evita had some practical learning experience with a paintbrush. And sure enough. That's that's where he got it. Apparently and so that was A humorous little exchanged by the way Stephen Rate of course has got to be appearing at the flame. The're next Friday evening up in Burlington in and I'm sure that'll be a terrific show is very funny. Clever gentleman and has been Around the national comedy scene for a long time Emerson is produced a number of a number of folks here in Vermont and the media in the broadcast field especially and And not just all over the country so they do have quite a name in as a as a school for the arts for for Media Studies and communications as as you mentioned and now they would expand their into a more Stronger traditional liberal arts program a gathering in things like what English and history and et Cetera. Yes l. sure Emerson Emerson's well known in a particularly in the arts and it is a dynamic place with a wonderful president event who is mainly Pelton who has expanded it. It is very popular school. It has sound financials and We and is much larger than Marlboro. So we felt that it would. It made a lot of sense once. The opportunity came up to do this rather than just kind of ride our own situation down Actually that's an interesting question. Marvel has about two hundred students at home and what the student bodies like it Everson. So we're three thousand. Wow Okay so that is that is a much larger institution institution Of course Mar is still three thousand even small by Higher Ed Standards Having of course I went to Umass amherst for Undergrad. Averages was something like twenty eight thousand at the time and and And then know Ohio State for a master's degree and that was I think the largest single university campus in in the country. So I kinda stuck with the big places I don't know why exactly but anyway The but these these schools are they have played an important role in the overall fabric of of higher education. In New England and I do want to go back to the Music Festival because I'm so glad to hear you. You say that you told me dictated that would That would continue What is the likely impact on the music festival? If any from this announcement that's hard to say. We are looking into uses of the campus. In general there's some beautiful buildings on the campus and the campus in a beautiful spot up on on a hill in Marlborough side Brattleboro but the music festival has a ninety. Nine year lease We you had signed up for the music festival to be a permanent tenant and that lease will be honored. That's part of this deal and The Music Festival feels that the Marlboro campus is definitely their home now. As the festival they really are only there for about seven or eight weeks in the summer So we're going to have to work this all out. We're we're hoping to figure out other uses for the campus We're we're enlisting a number of people involved in the college now and and Alumni and various groups. I think if I might the the heart of Marlboro has been its faculty and it has an an and the its particular niche has been its curriculum at self determination in subjects and studies indepth study of chosen subjects and self governance and then it also ends with a very large large academic project call which we call the plan and that goes for the last two years and ah of the four that each student is there and it's it's like a kind of a super thesis a super master's thesis I the study. Will that continue emerson. Will they be expected. It will continue in some forms and may not form. It may not be the last two years maybe the last last year but we expect that to continue. We expect our faculty actually to have a great deal of influence in the way Education is delivered in this Institute because they may very well a lot of them choose to go they may very well be in in a majority and have a lot of controller. Yeah I was GONNA ask about the general read of the Faculty I mean is your understanding and most of the faculty marvel or it's a way different environment Emmett working in Marlboro Vermont. That it is comedian and out of Boston every day. And are they okay. I mean most of them going to go. We don't know yet I will say that the Faculty of my read the Faculty having discussed it with the entire Mahbubur community ready Two days ago was their initial reaction was to To be interested in it and not to be negative about it in general now there you know it runs the spectrum. Everything at Marlborough runs the spectrum and this one does too yeah. I think the faculty was intrigued with the idea and the idea that they would get their tenure would be transferred to Emerson Jason and They would become faculty members there. So this'll be this institute at at Emerson College will be the Marlboro Borough Institute Give me the full name. Here has a great day Marlboro Institute of Liberal Arts and Interdisciplinary Studies at Emerson. Okay that's quite a mouthful and one of the intriguing things about Marlboro to me over. The years has been it's town meeting governance where I've been to a couple of town meetings. There where students faculty staff are all welcome to come to One of the larger meeting places on the campus and vote on Various decisions about whether to build a new building or or start a new program or whatever and Will that continue in any form. I don't know I honestly don't know it wouldn't surprise me if it did. It really is part of the Marlborough. DNA and and our goal in looking for a partner here had been to perpetuate that tradition these these traditions of Marlborough. In the way they teach and the way and the self-governance will will be literally like the town meetings that they're having my guess would be that there will be a lot of students control and a lot of self-governance. They'll be able to pull off the kind of town meeting style but I think it will be good in. All of our students incidentally are automatically accepted with Emerson at the tuition rates that they're paying now and So we were. That was another important aspect of this deal. How do the how do those rates compare? I'm just I'm just wondering. Is that a good deal to get to it is and that's my understanding And they get whatever grants-in-aid scholarship and so on that they they have now at Marlborough. So it's not going to be a big sticker shock for them so the idea here is it. Students Held harmless effectively. Yes and Again you know big change in environment. I mean you think about going to a small school in a very very rural setting in the hills west Brattleboro Vermont versus you know versus a place Walking distance to a couple of subway stops. Oh aw that's that's a big difference How how are the students reacting? Well you know hard for me to gauge age. My sense was that their emotions were kind of all over the place when it was it was announced and their immediate reactions. A it just were hard to read I. I would say that they kind of ran the gamut and We'll see after they've reflected on it for for a while is it. Is it fair to say I mean. I think one reaction might be sadness because as gracefully Marlboros doing it and you would expect Maher Mar do do something like this more gracefully than average perhaps It's closing isn't it. Yes yeah and it's I I would say that three action is is a strong sense of sentiment and and at Ta And and among many people alumni former faculty members and staff staff is anxious of course because they would transfer to Emerson and the other groups that I've just mentioned you know now are extremely concerned about this and extremely concerned about the campus there is. It's a beautiful campus when wonderful buildings and And they are and of course. There was the educational tradition and is the educational tradition which they All relate to in a very positive way. Yeah I my impression you know I. I made A number of trips down to Marlborough College over the years during my work as a reporter for the Associated Press different things happening down there from time to time there would attract some media attention and so I'd had down there and and I always I always had the impression of the place that The folks who were there. We're kind of up against some tough odds and way in some ways but on your hand they really loved it and and it was. It was kind of a challenge very it was set up as a challenging educational environment. You know this plan. You talked about the Very a high level ex- expectations by the Faculty of the students And then just Some sort of rustic aspects of being being in such a rural place and so on and so forth Really not a not a standard university or whatever college college setting the you'd get in a lot of places but folks who were who were diving into that in that scene Marlboro Seemed to really love it. Yeah there are those who just feel so sentimental about their days there it It it. There's no question it's a challenging rural setting and anybody from Vermont knows what that means it means power outages. It means you. You Know Sketchy Seltzer source or even Internet service is it is You know it's a challenge. He says no question and people look back. Many people look back on their days at Marlborough with great strong sentiments about that aspect of it we also put aside one hundred twenty five acres of woodland preserve to study the woods. saw in in the science classes yourself did your undergraduate work at Harvard and then went to law school. Where University of Michigan? Oh Okay and So so you've been do you went to big places to Marlborough which two hundred students but Michigan Stadium watching a ballgame with one hundred in one thousand fans. Yeah that is that is just an amazing scene out there. Of course I might graduate school was at Ohio state similar environment there and and obviously big football rivals and so but Go into Ohio Stadium on a Saturday afternoon and it was pretty crazy just a while so anyway. We digress I I did want to ask in as far as Marlboro goes a college would have a lot of stuff I duNno lab equipment and books and in all sorts of materials that go with Running a course of higher education and Any any thoughts some what happens with all the all that at Marlboro does it. All just get packed up the moving van and sent down to Boston. Well what we have. What we have signed is is called a term sheet and it it gives the basic terms of this deal? We it includes groups To look into that sort of thing groups on the use of the campus group on the on the on the library group on You know various various aspects of this and so it's too early to tell the calendar perhaps of of this term sheet might be of interest we will be Probably deciding in May weather after we've we've we've vetted all these issues whether to go ahead with a final decision whether to go ahead with this and if we do the merger would take place as of July. Yeah now that's that's an interesting point here. I mean and one that needs to be made isn't it isn't a deal as of today it's a it is as a A tentative deal I gather the way best way to describe it or it's called the non binding term sheet. It is I think a pretty strong on commitment that We'll go ahead with it and we were all kind of gearing up for for it to happen. Yeah okay And so the the the broad terms of it Emerson would actually own the CA- Miro property. Well it would be transferred to them now. Now whether they have any particular interest in continuing to own it is some question I think. Probably they don't. And then the dominance large ruffling dominance thirty five million okay. So that's the is that the big prices fair way to describe it Emmerson some I suppose that is what in effect sets up this institute and Finances bringing that our faculty over these these other enclosing our campus severance and all that sort of thing already well we are As it happens just about out of time here for this segment of the day Graham. Show Richardson. I really appreciate you coming by giving us the latest news on Marlborough College and I wish all the folks down there. Good luck in this transition. I'm sure it's it's GonNa be Kinda hard in some ways but Best of luck with it. So thank you We are going to be going to. CBS News of the nominee our sponsors more. The road shoulder fallen. We hear a lot about shopping local in here in the mad river valley. We put our money where our mouths are. Make your holiday shopping of joyful adventure. Far from the present stress of the big box stores come to the mad river valley inexperienced the joys and charms of quintessential the central New England holiday stores bars and restaurants to fill a day trip or take a few ski runs before heading into Warriner Wakefield for lunch snack. While checking off the items on Your List at the Warren store away you'll find something for everyone best one. Stop shopping in Vermont where we're fun. Funky in friendly mainstreet Warren Village Graham am shown on Wbz FM and am. We are back and The University of Vermont Medical Center this week made an important announcement. Osman it's about DNA testing they're going to offer that to patients There are a lot of diseases these days it can be detected or predicted through DNA. Testing and. I'm a complete novice at this entire topics. I'm here to learn as much as I hope. Our listeners are in the next In the coming hour Dave Graham. I'm show it's a it's a I I love this aspect of the program actually that It's frequently feels like going back to school myself. And so Today it's going that'd be a little bit of medical school maybe but anyway you've EMC was kindly Able to spare US this morning. A couple of people who are involved in this project could come down one. One came down through the winter weather to talk to us. That's Dr Bob Wilton Dr Walden thanks so much for coming in here very welcome. I'm happy to be here on the phone. I believe we have Christine is Jim. Oh yes and you are a genetic counselor in the Genomic Medicine Laboratory. Yes walk all right. Well this is to folks I'm very glad to have with me this morning to talk about this because I saw this news release out of the university I immediately eighty Lee said to myself. Wow that's a big deal and and So first off. Let's go to the basics here What is Genomic medicine who wants to take swing at that shirl. I'll do that. So Genomic. Medicine is the application of the science I aunts and understanding of The variations in our genes are inherited material and applying that to Medicine and so you can actually do a DNA test on someone and What are you looking for? And what might show so the tests that were introducing adducing is somewhat different than the traditional genetic testing if you come in with Signs or symptoms of that might be a genetic condition Or a strong family history than we target that testing for the conditions. That are You know that sound like what you might have and and in this case we're Doing more of a screen for multiple conditions that are anywhere from a relatively common into uncommon but not extremely wear and we're looking for them and individuals who may or may not have any symptoms and Do I see a number of a hundred and fifty four. So there's one hundred forty seven so the the. The test has two components there's one component is a hundred and forty seven jeans That are are helpful in predicting health risks for the individuals who take the test and then the second component is a carrier screen With another about three hundred genes that looks for Variations in the genome. which if passed along to your children while your partner also passes along a variation in the same gene can result in a condition? So you health self don't aren't affected by that By your children could be if your partner also has a very in the same gene is a fascinating thing to think about. And I think we've only really become aware I mean after all DNA was just The whole uh fact in theory behind DNA was developed. What in the Nineteen Fifties Watson and Crick and all sure? Yeah so it's it's been a fairly recent development went and The the discovery of the structure of DNA was one of the big steps forward to understand how DNA works and there have been many other. You know sort of quantum leap since then And so you can actually look at someone's DNA and say what this person is more likely than other folks than the average person whatever to To develop heart disease or diabetes are kind of cer- certain so this this particular test is looking at Disorders orders in primarily two categories one is cardiovascular disease and these are conditions which are inherited within families Although they may appear new in a family in an individual and that affect the structural integrity of the heart and its vessels The ability of the heart continue pumping in a normal rhythm and things like that. I remember. Yeah this is really interesting. I mean I've had many doctors appointments in my life. Where a basic question you get asked is Tell us about your family. History of heart disease your family. Do you have diabetes in your family. Do you have this or that. Added and And clearly I think even even before it's become as readily apparent from testing with DNA People knew about heredity knew about Tells a little of the history of this. When did I become a habit a in medicine? Say Tell us about your family and we history. Yeah I think I think it's been known since since before The discovery of DNA even that at certain disorders were passed down in families or that certain families had a high incidence of certain rare conditions in their children for example and So their medical papers going back into the eighteen hundreds that describe families like that so we knew that things were going on and it really wasn't until The nineteen nineties late nineteen ninety s that we begin to really get a handle on What was underlying those the genetic changes that were underlying those does and so now? We're sort of jump forward to Saying okay we understand those and we understand what that means for many of them were still discovering new gene disease Z's associations but for the ones that we have understood for some time We want to take advantage of that information and apply it To healthcare so that people can and their providers can discuss what their risks are. No Christine Jim. Oh my other guests on the phone. This morning I don't want to ignore you in fact I want to ask you Are you taking this information from that. You would get results from the DNA test and then by your job title genetic counselor. It sounds like you meet with patients and talk to them about About what these tests might show exactly so we're available in the Genomic Medicine Resource Center to answer questions for patients either other before they begin the testing process to answer questions about the test. What it might tell you but then we are available after the test to discuss specific results and what it might mean for an individual and their family members? Wow and and so I are Ah some of these conversations pretty difficult I mean if you tell somebody you you are a very strong candidate for There's a in fact there's a particular kind of breast cancer. I understand which is strongly connected with with a certain gene is that right. There are a few different genes involved And hereditary breast cancer and and those conversations can be difficult but at the same time we would be offering individuals follow up with specialists. We would be discussing different surveillance. They may take which may prevent cancer and their family or in themselves. And that's obvious I would think the goal is to say We we think the We think the storm might becoming less batten down the hatches and try to prevent as damage to the extent possible. Exactly we want to arm and people with the information that How they can prevent it? And what screening. They may take to prevent any storm as you say it. And is there Do you end up with. I don't know dietary recommendations or or actual medicines. You'RE GONNA put people on as preventative. There may be it depending on the genes involved And we would be referring individuals to either a cancer specialist or a cardiac specialist depending on what we refined. It's kind of funny but I mean I I had My own genetic experiment. Perhaps my life because I have something called horizontal next Agnes switches visual disorder and From birth it and And when I was a kid I came across an old portrait painted portrait. Richard of great great grandfather. I think in my mom's attic or something and And the and the portrait painter apparently did quite an accurate in good job. Because this guy is is looked exactly like mine and And I remember thinking so. Does this skip a couple of generations or or You know exactly how does how does Because my parents neither of them I had horizontally stagnates and actually my kids don't either but you sons and and and So I sort of wondered about that if if there's is there any and all done on this particular thing I'm sure that's it's a phenomenon that we know well about and is called Decreased penetrates and what that means or or incomplete penetration. What that means? Is that even though you may have inherited a gene that predisposes you to condition You don't always express that can you don't always show the signs of that condition So that's that's A common FEM- an in a number of the genes particularly in some other cardiovascular genes. We're looking at. That's going to be an important message that will get as just because has you have this genetic change. It raises your risk for having this condition but you may or may not get it. Yeah that that the idea of of Of having a certain gene does not automatically dispose you to something in fact it it. There's some other honor offs which which I'm going to ask about it in a moment but I I have to say I remember reading a fascinating Article A couple of years ago by a science writer who lives here in Vermont Guy. The Guy by the name of David Dobbs and It it was about grasshoppers and locusts which I had never known before but are actually the same creature and they They but they have the they carry this gene that either express it. They don't if they express their locust and if they don't express it there grasshopper and certainly people like grasshoppers a lot better than we like locusts right right so I mean I I just I thought that was a really fascinating example of this kind of gene expression. I guess we're talking about right now right. Yeah I think there are factors that we don't completely understand. Some of them are environmental So for example people who have have a predisposition to The lung breaking down Get the disease more frequently when they're smoking when they're exposed to environmental irritants for example And there are also Increasing evidence that Other minor genetic influences exist. And that's why you don't always inherit all of your genes from your parent you inherit about half of them and the other half and the other parent and maybe A A second gene has is a an influence on the first one That by itself doesn't make any difference fascinating stuff to four four one seven seven. Seven is our local. Well number here in Waterbury One eight seven seven to nine one eight two five five ought to nine one. Talk if you're calling from slightly farther away that's our toll free number and My guests are Dr Bob Wilson of the University of Vermont Medical Center specialist in Genomic medicine and also Christine Jomo is On the phone with us she is a genetic counselor in the Genomic Medicine Lab and Let me let me ask you Dr Dr Wilson It tell tell us about where you. VM Is in the overall. Push in this direction. American medicine right or worldwide medicine right now we among the first here to To get into this or is this becoming widespread her we re catching up. Or How's that work. I think we're really among among the first and the some some of the things that were there are a handful of other programs around the country and around the world that are doing things that are somewhat similar. Most of them are doing this on a research basis And we're doing this as a clinical test. So basically picked out the segments of of the twenty thousand genes that that that are in our genome and That have the most value For Health at this point in time that we know of and were Testing for for those. And we're doing this as a I clinical tests There's opportunity to participate in research around that but that's optional and so I think I saw in the news. Release that that you're starting with one thousand patients who are who are in the practices of six primary care. Doctors are predicts primary care practices. Is that right. There's one one primary care practice that we're starting with which was the UVM Family Medicine Group and And they're six providers there that we're starting with okay so and patients since will be offered the tests through those providers initially in that. We're starting slow so we can make sure that the systems are working right. Our communications are working right. And that The providers and their staff Understand how to do. This were In the Genomic Medicine Resource Center standing by to help Help them Through this and I think they're going to learn very quickly the I also wanted to ask about the Are you hearing any pushback. Act from patients groups or patients individually Concerns about privacy and about Just you know is there. Is there any element that people need to worry about automatic front so It's it's something that is on people's mind Genomic Information is has the potential shoul to be a means of of discrimination There are federal laws For example the genetic information nondiscrimination the Nation Act or Gina. Ti is A law. That prohibits discrimination in the provision of Health Insurance in employment and But it does not prohibit discrimination based on a by life insurance long-term care insurance Or other types of insurance for example I just want to add that we've worked closely with the patient. Family advisors advisors for me of Em last year on in planning this project and how we would implement it as well as well as the UVM ethics specialist and and there is a Of course hip the Health Information Privacy Protection Act. I believe it is as another federal law that covers an awful lot of Medical information my wife's an rn by someone who you with some of these concepts yes so hip hip is his is so this information will be treated as the same as the rest of your medical information So it'll be secure in the medical record and non released to People who are not related to your health care Without your permission. Yeah that's I I would think that is a that is something that patients want to keep in mind and and perhaps you know ask enough of questions get yourself comfortable with is that is that if Goodwin's budget that's right because This is this is optional. You're a member of the Is it you university. She wrote Family Medicine Practice. If your primary care provider is in that UVM Family Medicine Group and That's where we're initially rolling it out. We do plan after that. Got To Expand to other primary groups within the OEM health network and then eventually to community providers viner's as well all right Let me check with my My good friend Dana Julian ask him okay. We don't need to take a break right right now. Sometimes we do and sometimes we. He just pointed at the sign he had put up earlier. Dave says break is optional. Okay Hey we have a caller on the line. Let's go to Hawaii uh-huh Judy and bury a belief. Yes good morning. Good Morning I have three questions and I'll get off the phone. Okay I WANNA know if this genetic testing acting. includes pancreatic cancer I wondered if unsure if this has to be something through your insurance and your insurance covers these these tests and is it just a regular blood test like the The breast cancer genetic testing. So so I'll go backwards It it is a regular blood test. it's ordered through your provider and the blood is drawn The same way any other blood tests is too strong and it takes them Three to four weeks for the results to come back for your provider to Have time to review them before Talking to you about it The first question was about pancreatic cancer I do believe that that is in the gene list We rely on our familial cancer program experts at Uvm to handle the those cancer predisposition genes And then the second question was question was the MO- insurances insurance cover this so actually in what we're what we're doing in the pilot is offering doing this for free so the testing and the Genetic counseling that as provided pre pre test and For many of the disorders post test will not be at additional charge. So there's no pre authorization required for insurance for this test at this time. How many do do you have an estimate After you had to present this to the hospital budget committee or something like that we we expect out of these first thousand patients. We're going to be testing that. A certain percentage adage of them will actually need Post test counseling. Yes so The the we don't actually have a really great idea How many are going to need GonNa want the counseling mom? The idea What we know about this test from Experience is that the jeans that of the disdain sat will yield about one in six individuals will have a positive result on the health risks portion and probably a higher portion portion will have a proportion will have a positive result on the carrier portion. And that's because we all carry several recessive genes for disparate disorders. That the likelihood they will meet a person and have children with them. That has the same gene changes relatively low except for certain disorders. Like cystic fibrosis and Sickle cell disease. Question sure How can you apply to be part of the Part of the testing so it's offered through the UBS family medicine group primary care providers and when they begin to enroll enroll each provider as we bring them on they will Assess the eligibility of each Individual before the The Clinic v Necks Clinic visit and offer it at the time of those clinic. Visits so some initial discussion can happen but it sounds like judy. If I have this right your question really we went to Can I ask to sign up even if I'm not a member of the VM. Family Medicine practice right now. We are part of that here in central Vermont believe so so we we may be getting here provider but we are starting With one family medicine practice and expect expect to roll it out slowly so I think it's a good question for your provider and to let them know you're interested in and when they come on board perhaps they he could keep you in mind something. Yeah so so. One of the thing about the pancreatic cancer so We want to make clear that for people who have a strong family family. History of of cancer pancreatic cancer melanoma or combination of those or breast and ovarian cancer or Colo rectal cancer especially with people getting those at an earlier age You should get referred for Direct testing of those questions. So you oh you don't need to really wait for this kind of test to come around But if you have an indication for genetic counseling and genetic testing you can get that now and insurance should pay for that. Okay thank you take your questions pretty much okay. Well thank you very much for the call I so so it sounds like just so just to make sure we're all clear on this Dr Wildman and and Christine Jim O.. the The situation right now. Is that these free tasks asser GonNa be offered at the family medicine practice me. That's up in the Burlington area right So South Burlington Is Our starting place. We'll move to Chester Chester and Milton. Okay County then And and folks in central Laurente. Maybe what a couple of years before it spreads that are what are you it depends ends on how things go. And how much funding we can do to continue offering it for free icy. Okay and Meanwhile though if you do have a concern about The presence of of a specific type of cancer in your family. You can get this kind of testing right now at by asking your doctor about it and and generally insurance will cover it. Yeah Okay Yeah so I think that that it really helps to clarify on some of the situation that we have another caller online jim from Chelsea. Good Morning Hi Jim Good Morning. It's another great Topic you have some of the most fascinating people on now. Really try thanks interesting. It's not just you know dead stuff that fills the air I think you probably just answered my questions but I'm a little confused. There's UVM and C. V. H. and a lot of 'em's visa and sees these are you out of Irwin or out of Burlington so we're out of BURLINGTON and I agree. It's all very confusing. Yeah Yeah so the the the UV medical center is partnering with several other hospitals to create the VM health network. And so it's very easy to get confused between all those pieces. Okay today which is U B. M as that. Berliner is that Erling Winton The is is the The University Medical School and Medical Center. That's associated with it. Yeah and Burlington and that's Burlington. Yes just call their office and they didn't know anything about it my GP says. I said we're we're we're we're rolling it out into certain office says okay only At the beginning to make sure that we get all the pieces running well. But if I understand you're you properly Is it something that excuse me anybody can go to any of their. GP's to ask for or or is it just through what you guys are doing. So so the the program that we're doing of offering it for free including including the genetic counseling in the referrals and that come out of it through that is only through us You can go to your primary care doc and order a similar test okay. Good but The insurance will unlikely pay for it so okay. Does this qualify for arthritis osteoarthritis or is it. Just cancer sir. In heart and so the genes are on this panel are are not strong indicators of osteoarthritis okay so if you have Something early onset osteoarthritis arthritis. Something like that. Then you may want to go through An arthritis specialist Yup yum. And then they say oh yeah. This looks genetic than they may come come to. Aren't genetics clinic. Thank you all hang up and keep listening to thank you Jim for the very good questions. you know and I do think that that is fascinating is. Is that if you go to your doctor and and and I mean leaving aside this program that was just announced this week. It sounds like a lot of this already. Goes on where you go to your doctor and say I have a strong family. History of X Y and Z DOCUMENT GONNA come down with X Y and Z and the doctor says well there's a today task for that and let's talk about your family history and I think the real question comes down to his The terminologies or the the fundamental question for the Insurance Company and Etcetera would be is it indicated you know is is it something that your your Your background your symptoms point to as as as necessary and of course then the insurance company gets a call about the prior authorization in and all that fun stuff and and Makes a decision. There is that how generally works in in the bigger world out there. Yeah and and the bigger world. That's right so you have have to have a reason to to consume you know health dollars and The health insurance companies are the gadget willy. Nilly we gotTA gotta go to a bottom of the hour break here on the Dave Ramsey show four. CBS News and a couple of words from our sponsors. We'll be back and continue our conversation with Dr Bob a Wildman and and with Christy Zumo of the University of Medical Center. Just a few minutes folks stick season is the perfect time for a road trip. It's an easy drive from anywhere to visit our perfect piece of Paradise in Warren Village. Have Lunch and are Rockin. Deli and venture upstairs to a shopper's treasure trove of toys gifts cards accessories and beautiful functional clothing for every lifestyle brands. You know and love cool. Totally Co Royal Robbins share the space with fashion forward grants like Tony Ballasts and comfy. Smart will darn tough and more upstairs at the almost world-famous Warrant Store Warren village. It's the day Graham Show WBZ FM am. We are back continuing our conversation with Dr Bob Wilson of the University of Vermont Medical Center also Christine Dean you o of the She's a genetic counselor with the Genomic Medicine Lab at the University of Vermont and Let me ask about genetic medicine Genomic Medicine Lab Christine Jimbo is is this just started up in conjunction with in in connection with this experiment. Here or or this this study. You're you've just launching or is this a existed for a while so it's been in existence for about three years and we currently are doing tumor based testing For genetic profiles in the lab and have been for the last few years airs. Let me let me get a little explanation to that. So if somebody comes in who actually has a a form of cancer and has a has a tumor they could be tested for. That is that what's going on right so certain tumors we are sent and we extract the DNA and we look for certain certain genes made guide treatment for a patient. I see and people always talk about the quote unquote elusive cure for cancer. Or whatever but how much promised promised. Would you say This whole genomic approach to medicine might have toward really trying to You radical or at least greatly reduced instances of cancer. Well I don't know about a radical but I know certainly tests like ours may indicate if someone and has an increased risk for a certain type of cancer and may be started on a specific surveillance program. Maybe offered a preventative treatments in terms of drugs. so there is that option and what sorts of drugs are generally used. If someone it comes in with a PREDISPO- predisposition toward I dunno bladder cancer. Let's say I am I that would be outside my expertise. They would refer them onto the familial cancer program or any of the other oncologists icy Dr World near thoughts on that one nurse. Yeah that's also I would be speaking a little outside of my My domain so They're they're a lot of the options that we provide to patients who learn that they have a higher risk is Kearlier screenings so for example for colon cancer. The current recommendations are to start calling us copy or other similar screening at age fifty but individuals with Lynch Syndrome will start a screening Much much earlier because they're they're onset of colon cancer may start in the twenty S. You know I I would. I would also think you could end up in a a situation where the doctors saying that. The patient listen There is a species predisposition in your genetic makeup and We generally remain. We generally do you know I'm a doctor. I'm telling my patients all day to cut down on their drinking. Let's say alcohol consumption With you you should be not drinking at all or something like that in other words it's even more important in this. Particular case is standing. There are some there are definitely some conditions that we will detect with this This test that affect deliver And for which alcohol It would be a really bad thing to do. Yeah and so that and I suppose was there a dietary risks. To in other words. You could say that pretty much. Everybody limit your intake of French. Fries for instance right because they're high in fat and salt all usually in CETERA and conducive to heart disease as we hear and and But in your case the doctor might say to the patient it's doubly so yeah. So there's there's a one of the disorders we expect to Pick up Relatively frequently something called Famille hypercholesterolemia which is a lot of syllables By you yeah you have very high cholesterol. That's that runs in the family and It can be treated with statin drugs. very successfully and you can dramatically manically change The development of for example coronary artery disease a heart attack risk Over the years every go ahead. I'm Kristie say. In addition to that it would be equally important to modify lifestyle in terms of Diet and exercise so there would be added emphasis. Yeah that that's I suppose those inputs diet exercise all of those things are going to have different impacts uh-huh on people with different Genomic makeup is that right. Yeah I think I think we know that I think we know there's a lot of Influence on I hope city and things like that in our jeans. Mom It doesn't Eliminate the value of a a reasonable diet and Getting regular exercise so I think everybody can still benefit from those a. We're not gonNA have doctors telling patients go ahead and have as many drinks as many plates of French fries is you want. Oh shucks anyway. Hey let's go to guy in Berlin. He's calling in Good Morning Guy Interesting. Show thank you dave. Better curious Well they'll be Screening our is our already but whether it be screaming for prenatal screening. We're down syndrome and that kind of thing so excellent question guy. the There this test is offered to adults who are not currently pregnant or their partners not pregnant And the reason for that exclusion is because there are different tests that are more appropriate atfer using in the prenatal setting If people choose to use them and get that information so the carrier screening they're redoing is really for people people who have are planning families or wanting to have families and trying to understand their risks and for It's been giving everybody in so even someone who isn't Having kids anymore may benefit from it by passing that information onto their kids who are each at fifty percent chance of having inherited that same change and then they're the grandkids could potentially be at risk depending on what the child's partner it carries that was a long explanation. I hope that was unclear guy. y'All set yeah that's right all right thanks to call good question I I did want to remind folks that Again there are there are some boundaries around this initial study that the university medical center is doing One is that that they've got to be at least eighteen to participate. Is that right right and and right now you pretty much need to be a patient of the give me the name of the practice account you the M. Family Medicine Group and they are based in county they have what three different clinics I guess. Oh right okay and eventually the plan is I'm told that Depending on continued funding. All the good stuff and success of this of this program that eventually you would want to extend it. Extend the offer of this free genomic screening meaning to I saw the number was amazed. I said one point. Two million P patients in the VM Network of course this is Again again a system of hospitals that extends not just in Vermont and you know to the Middlebury into Berlin and et Cetera but Also across the lake in New York state correct. Yes this is why I said one point two million twice month population so I should mention. There's what there's one more Criteria right now for which is that? The patients Insurance Policy Falls under Those that are Look so-called attributed under the Accountable Care Organization one care Vermont which is sort of an umbrella organization? That's working to help advance Patient Care Through better prevention and better cost I was GONNA ask about that you you need to be part of the one care system in order to participate as well. Yes that's the current Part of the current requirement. And that's for two. The reasons one is that One Kerr can collect information from different insurers about how effective This is What what happens to patients after after they get the test whether they take advantage of screening opportunities for example And what their a health outcomes are and what the overall cost is and the other reason is because in order to offer it for free There's a legal hurdle we we have to get over and one Vermont has the ability to issue a waiver to do that. What is the legal? Hurdle There's something called inducement and I'm not. I'm not a lawyer so I'm not going to get very much into this but when as I understand it and somebody can Nkala correct me That when Medicare and Medicaid were coming on There were concerned that Free things would be offered two people in order to capture those now insured individuals and have viability in practices And so that was Outlawed a lot. So there's a you can't do something that induces patients to come over to. Your clinic can give them something for free. Okay I see so so We we can't have a situation where we are offering a free service just to get you in the door correct and so what what what the waiver allows us to do is in this. Context have of Exploring ways to better. Preventative Care We are allowed to do this fascinating stuff and in healthcare economics. I mean I've been fascinated by the whole development of this one care accountable care organization in Vermont. And if I understand it correctly basically It's it's part of this overall goal. We've you've heard talked about for years in the whole Hel on whole healthcare scene of getting away from the fee for service system where a doctor gets paid depending on how many a shoulder surgeries they do And and if they're an orthopedic surgeon specializing shoulders say just for one example The The new system basically says we are going to give you a a number of patients and your goal is to keep them healthy over the course of a a year. And we're going to give you. We're GonNa Negotiate what we pay you based on that service as opposed to just these discreet payments for the individual healthcare operations in visits etc.. He I couldn't set a better. And it makes sense to me then This kind of Clicks Alexa my head and tell me if I'm the click eroneous but In in the one care context in the in the Care Organization context And you probably want to know if you're being given a certain population of patients to care for for and you're going to negotiate how much you get paid for carrying for these thousand patients agents or whatever it is over the course of a year You probably want to know Roughly and again that's preserve confidentiality and all that good stuff but you probably WanNa know roughly How many of them are predisposed to part disease? Let's say yeah I mean I think now and again I'm not involved in those calculations relations and I think that those are in aggregate taken taken into account because we know there's a proportion of the population that is and will be consuming You know Coal Cancer Resources Cancer Treatment sources earlier than than than most people or getting stents angioplasties. So that. That's I I can imagine That becoming a feature of uh of the system that is well tooled up in the direction of this accountable. CARE or or What do they call capitated budgeting and that kind of thing? Yeah they have a different name product. Remember at the moment but yeah it's a little bit different than the old inhabitated AL capitated model. I will say that you know I think one of the things that we WANNA Do as we were sort of Creating landscape a new opportunity for prevention and Being able to detect things earlier earlier I'm and Treat them at an earlier. Stage is not only better for the patient but presumably in the long term will save healthcare. Dollars right yeah and I I I don't i. It's a good point. I don't want to over emphasize the economics here because obviously a bottom line goal. This whole situation is to try to improve medical care in general. So that's a Christine where you're gonNA add something. I always just going to say and we also envisioned genetics. Genetic information becoming part of someone's yearly early annual visit where. It's not just something special but the genetic information is used in everybody's day to day care People are GonNA end up offering this stuff you know I find out on clear of all these different genetic predispositions would I would okay then an hour doing this if I were in the in the stage of life where I might be interested when I put that in my online dating profile I all up to you. Five ten free of heart disease forever. You know get guaranteed Ni- I A Anyway that just ran. Sometimes I have these bizarre random thoughts pop into my head and it caused me to ask questions which You Know I. I sort of asked myself lady. Why the heck did you go the Dave can I circle back to talking about going here? Let's doctor and And and Relating if you have a positive if you have a family history of early onset cancers or a a lot of clustering of cancer in your family What we've learned in the last three or four years is that That process which is not often done as well as it could be. I'm not as productive as volley but even if you go through that process You will miss at least half of the cancer predisposition families so this is not a panacea. We're saying right what I think what I'm getting to is that that's one of the reasons for doing the testing so people may not know they may not have a family history of the amount of small family. They may not know much about their family medical history and so there's a big chunk of people who are likely at increased risk. Who Won't know about it until they find their genetic variation? Yeah and and and these questions are these are issues that person probably does want to know about in the course of Of course of his life life and so this is important stuff About a year ago. One of these companies I. I don't remember whether it was ancestry. Dot Com or twenty three and me the Iran and add online where they featured a woman woman who said she had gone to work as a tailor for a day because she had found out that her great grandfather or somebody In her in her genetic history was that it was a tailor and and she found it to be really interesting and rewarding. Work for the she did it and Gee whiz maybe she had a genetic predisposition toward sewing etcetera but And I remember I looked at the ad and I said that's interesting to me because my grandfather Worked for the Associated Press back in the nineteen thirties. And of course people who've listened to the show regularly. I mentioned mentioned before that I I spent about thirty years in the associated. Press Bureau here in Mont Peel Year and And now I am radio and sure enough on the other side of the family. My Dad's uncle Was a guy named Raymond gram swing. WHO's sort of the one of the early? Edward R Murrow of the I think it was a mutual broadcast network. Back in the thirties. Also also so And I said so I am working for the AP radio and Gee. I never even had to give anybody a DNA test so lucky. He me but I wanted to spend our last few minutes talking a little bit about the the enough not to be confused with the Commercial Twenty three three and me and ancestry dot com and those companies versus This kind of genomic testing that is that the University of Vermont is launching into and Dr Wildman And tell us You mentioned on a break I asked you about it and you you said you think that that would ancestry dot com. It's doing good for entertainment value. Yeah I think I think you know the the ancestry thing is is it's interesting to people to learn you know something about their genetic heritage And his is as entertainment goes relatively inexpensive and It's it's a fun thing to do. there's a there's a categorical distinction between The what's a clinical laboratory that produces sonoma genetic information that you could use a medical care and and something that is for entertainment purposes or for your information your information only so there's a Another law that Clinical Laboratory Improvement Act clear which requires that any information Any testing information in genetics that we use in medical care ear. Be Performed in a clear certified laboratory and direct to consumer labs Most for the most part are not a clear. Certified defied and their In their sort of business model is not the same as we want to Work together with you and your healthcare providers. Yeah to ensure that you get the most and best information you can all right. I got an email here from And this may be actually a good would question for Christina. Jim Oh here. It is any concern that DNA test results may create excess unnecessary anxiety due to some small percentage percentage of possible disease or condition for patients. I'm not sure I want to worry the rest of my life that I the five percent chance of developing some condition. Christine what do you. What would you liter patient? Who said that to you? Well we would first of all say that this testing is optional. And we would not. We don't require patience to take this past and I think the second part would be that if we gave you an increased risk of a specific condition. We would also be giving you new plan of what to do next Your doctor maybe ordering some surveillance tests maybe earlier mammograms Then than you would normally have you may be referred to a specialist for monitoring and surveillance but it would be empowering someone with the information to take care. Take charge of their house. Yeah that's that's a a reasonably response. I think to the patient in your who has a lot of people. People are skeptical about everything and it sounds like there's a little bit of that going on here. People people do respond to information differently. Use it in different ways and that's perfectly normal and so you know people who feel like you know this is something that might just way on me and and that would be worse for me than knowing what it isn't having a plan to go forward thin that's fine and they. This is not a good test for them. All right We have another caller on the line pat from Randolph. Good Morning Pat. Good Morning I. I was wondering if these folks could tell me if there's a genetic predisposition to try cloudy or if that's just an anomaly so tripe triploid triploid is basically having instead of having two sets of chromosomes one you inherit from each parent You have three sets of chromosomes. It's pretty rare And in general there is not a predisposition to that Then I'm thinking back way back to my training. I haven't seen a case TRIPLOID IAN and many many years and I you know there may be a few extremely rare families where Um triploid might recur but It's it's extremely rare. They Call Pat and I just wanted to add. This test would not cast for employees And it also. I wanted to point out that it doesn't test for ancestry so that's not something that's included on this test. Okay that's a good thing to me. You're not gonNA tell somebody. Oh by the way your great grandfather was a Taylor. No in fact I. I'm not sure how they make that connection. Even in the commercial affects the I'm not sure what happens there. But there's some other steps that would have have to be involved but I think you would you would think yes. Yes triploid I'm not familiar with that at all. That manifest itself. It's it's complex. Okay Yeah I guess maybe too much complexity for the last two minutes of the Dave Ramsey here in WD ev the F. FM and am. I this has been a fascinating conversation and I think something that May may deserve another co paint in a year or so when you start to have some results and see Get get an update on how this is going. I'd love to have the two of you back and Perhaps in November of twenty assuming Some genetic disorder hasn't hasn't gotten me be by then and well. Yeah and we Because I I do think that this is does feel like a brave new frontier here and I commend the two of you as explorers. It's really really something so I wanNA thank. Thank my guests Christine Jimoh who is a genetic counselor where the Genomic Medicine Lab at the University of Vermont up in Burlington. Your University remind health network. It's a great pleasure to have you on the air with us this morning thank you. Thank you Dr Bob Wilbon gentleman and a scholar here. Here I can tell and and it's been a real pleasure to have you in the studio here. Thank you it's bench. Why and I want to mention is just in the last minute or so of the day Graham. Show here a a couple of things. We have upcoming next week on on Monday. We're going to be having an interesting discussion. Awhile thirty seconds. I'll make it quick interesting discussion with Margaret Maclean. and Dave Kelly. Are you about some of the problems with the act. Forty six School merger could school consolidation law. And that should be fascinating conversation in the second hour Monday show tune in then meanwhile stay tuned for a common sense radio. Bill Sayer and we will be back Monday. have a great weekend everybody.

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MWA307 - Gary Rogowski

Modern Woodworkers Association

1:06:25 hr | 1 year ago

MWA307 - Gary Rogowski

"Welcome to the modern woodworkers association. A podcast about woodworking from folk who would. Woodworking is what we do who we are and what we like to talk about. So join us as we have a drink, sit around and talk woodworking. And welcome to the three hundred seventh episode of the Modern Woodworkers Association podcast on. Kyle Kmart Mart and tools and I'm here with my co host Sean was described the corner workshop today were visiting with Gary Rakowski custom furniture, maker author director of northwest, woodworking. Studio, in host of the podcast screeners with Gary Gase how're you doing gary? I'm fine I. Didn't hear your name to bad now that you did. All right. All right I have. Met Cremona this podcast. Or even deeper cut the Coles at Nola. Yes. Ethanol anyone. But anyway but before he's pumped Gary Lips get into woodworking news on what's going on. So I got a couple of things I'm on the email list for harvey tools who also makes a bridge city tool. So get all their email and handsome and kind of interesting that came out with a couple of things the only bad part of both of them is. Outrageously expensive but the first one is calm braces what they're calling it a PB DASH to palm brace. I think a bridge city years ago made a couple of different races of this latest evolution, an Ans- absolutely gorgeous but it looks like it is relatively small for doing small holes and looks like you can use anything that has the or that quarter-inch. It's like a quick connect quicken. Ranch. Quick. Connect which is kinda disappointing android have like a nice shot. On there. But like I said, it looks like this thing isn't for smaller type stuff not I think the swing on this as maybe forgot what they said here something like nine the swing is two and a quarter inches. So we're going to be able to get a lot or on his tall on this it it's called the palm because it kind of sits in the palm and. Fingers longer yet. Be Nice if they showed us something where you could get a little reference on it. That they don't, but like I said, it's Pricey. It's well, it's been discounted now preorder it's two hundred, thirty nine dollars. Yeah. Yeah. So but I thought it was of interesting just to just throw it out there because you know. So many of his tools go into the being these collector items on thinkers last braces have been but All of those bits no show. Them it's no, there's. What works? Yes. Because if you were getting a counter sync and A. Quarter drives in Sixteenth Dr. L. That would be dancing known. Yeah it's so but I figured I'd just throw it out there for listeners. It's something you can Google at. All But. I got some of titanium finish on It's made out of titanium. Incredible. The size of it knowing like seeing that dementia kind of put my hand up. Would be. surprised. If. My mitts. Would fit inside that thing to turn it if the whole because there's this between what your hand is know rotating detectable of those races but. And the top handle the race point they're putting weight down on its if there's only eight and a half inches between the chuck and that top the that handles gotta be less than four inches. Way Less than four inches side there. That's a it's a diminutive hand to. Would be interesting to see how her gme accused operate because you know using bits like that I would rather use like one of those egg beater drills if UH students of. Yeah or that what was the? What's the other You just pushed it in its sponge? Oh, the Yankee, the Yankee Gone Thriller Screwdriver. They're always everything that John Everett designs. Beautiful. No doubt now now, one thing like I said I'm on their email list and I don't know if they're having some sort of a supply and demand issues, but they've been starting to all kinds of you know that I just got this today or would put it in the show notes, but they're chopstick maker. Yeah, I got a notice on that that they had ten of them. I think it was ten of and they're selling them for like a hundred and seventy five bucks. What were they over there like yeah. Yeah and I mean like that little solar still in that not too long ago like one hundred, twenty bucks just a few dollars more than you got the whole setup and also harvey stamp on sets deep discounts council unlike some of their stationary machinery either table Salt Esau. Anyway. Though that's out there and speaking are being brings me to my next thing, which is their compass in-jie thirty, six minor gate, and I saw this an looks like something else. It is very nice looking and what interests me is. You know it's got an extendable a wing on the fence of it. So you know it can handle long stock goes all the way out to thirty and square yeah, which is interesting and it has all kinds of flip stops in a look superbly made and It's bargain at the an introductory price at three, hundred, twenty, nine dollars. Or they were hundred dollars regular lead anyway. but I think most stick with my equal right now. But yeah, I think that they're good to I mean this has a lot of will I like the the positive stops I I wonder I mean either as machine Uber Accurately doesn't look good adjusted much I will. It reminds me of woodpeckers. Okay. Kind of yes. said there's black in reddened is just allred. That but you'll slip stops its if Birdie Birdie. But I just thought I'd throw that out there because I haven't seen anyone come out with a new Mark Gagen quite a while so. I is it just you know it's hard to improve on what's already out there mean Brahmin increment there's. Here is solid and then they made their like that I was what's the whole like swing arm micro adjustable thing where you can like just dial in by the sixty fourth of an inch adjustability in stop measurements and stop like there's a whole the whole sled I think you put down Oh you the thing that mark us. Yeah. Yeah. I know what you're talking about what they call it that yeah. That's like three, hundred, eighty, four, the mitre master. that. And you know, but that's about all you can do you can. Genus stuff that's about it because we okay. We can all agree to one that comes with your saw. Right. Putting an extension, of MB, F on the comes with your saw is actually usable I have sought off. The mortgage on that's but okay I do have the Ankara that I bought years ago the was on silk. It's got a woodcraft label on it. But anyway. It's the things rock-solid Taller Anyway Welfare at throw that out there and and then also like I said if you're interested in anything that breaks city has has I would definitely sign up for their. Email lists Kaz serious past two months been seven discounts after discount. So if you're interested in either tools the please Recommend you go ahead and sign up for that. Moving right along. So our friends of the show at Morton's intended magazine have a new video out can get digitally streaming or on DVD twenty, five dollars in. Apprenticeship series. This one's on Greenwood woodworking so follows you know they've had a couple of other of videos foundations in think they had one on tables but it's one hundred minutes long and goes over everything in Greenwood from felling trees to hewing splitting all that kind of stuff. So Steam Bending Scharping, Guna bunch of worked. So if you're interested in greenwood woodworking it's GonNa. Be Great to pick up. Twenty five bucks. For. Hundred Minute instructional. Not. Bad at all and does this does this following their series of? Yeah I? Don't think there I don't think they're like all interrelated but you know it is. It is the videos I don't think part one. I don't think it's evolving concept is the videos that they produced. And for the consideration DVD's they said it's will be out lane or August. Yeah. But for only dollars more than the streaming downloadable version. So depending on your what you've got at home to play stuff too much more physical copies isn't that bad? If you have a DVD player. Yeah I know I still do my Blu Ray player so play DVD's okay but no most next off at streaming. Good deployer up in clauses. Still has right so. Old School like that I still liked the the copy I like to have it in my hand I. Don't like to look at it on an yeah. Yeah. That has some appeal and then lastly I want to bring up in this branch. thinking. I saw this right before the show. To the show but. Lost Press. Chris over there has put out a new video on sharpening a curved scraper in his technique works for curved or straight scrapers using carbide Berkshire. So apparently come up with a new technique and close to the show starting that I did not have time to watch the eight minute video yet. So but I figured I'd throw it in there. stuff easily always has a great to techniques on stuff like that. So I'd recommend you over to Los Start presses on his blog called idiot sharpening. Is it with with any? Guides are or anything or is it still the typical? I? Think you lay I said we'll draw the burners across the rollout and I'm I'm sure it's it's like that but I think the technique your is using a burmeister and like I said, I am assuming some stuff just from some of the stuff in the post but I don't WanNA speak at a time without seeing the video. But I figured I'd just throw it in their case anybody can go over there and take a hand. At this point the listeners may know more about it Ha-. I happen to own a car by Brasher I don't have any curved a which one young. I think. It's probably a woodcraft one I lo WHO's it is. Nothing but it's it's a, it's an rockwell, fifty nine or so. It's not a screwdriver. It's a Herbie hide or. Maybe it's not carbide. Yeah. It probably hardens he yeah. Yeah I think this is the car budge couple places. You can just the carbide today I wanna say it's like argue rasp it's not but it's a French company that makes these. Carbide. Furniture's that are pretty cool. But. WanNa to bring it up a photo of it so. The name the name is argue, yeah, there's the RASP company that's Rascon leaders are no a are. Are. There, you go. Arnold. Owen and. That is funky. Yep I have one of those they were click champ. It's got a Try has got around side where has a little round bunker in another side is trying corvette furnish it's almost like a longer carbide insert down the site little handle Yup and that was another recommendation from Chris aroused press knocking isn't it? Yeah. There he goes aren't aren't over. Forty Bucks Yeah. So it works like a pin, what it does and being carbide that last a lifetime. Oh, I didn't notice he selling them. Yeah. Yeah. In realize he was actually seldomly. So so you can pick one of those up. All right. We're learning lots here. Okay, well, let's move onto a what's in the shop so Shaun what's going on? Yeah. I won't say finally because I do love it but summer summer Lacrosse as weird as it was during the Hulk Hogan thing Phil happened it lasted a lot longer than normally. So now we record this in the. Approaching the Tehran detail on July, it just got done last week. So now are we lead nights are a little more open and our weekend a little more open. So hopefully now because what I was doing with piecemeal building a shed in the back I, got it the foundation and got the floor frame done. So I still haven't even order to lumber to build on top of frame hopefully now that will proceed I would actually finalizing resigned today it's like an order all at once and get it shipped here because I don't own the puck the Oh man I know, but it's it's like. Yeah raise. One that doesn't deal in chief goods. I have a Houston. I kid you not I used to drive a Saturn, the little four door and Saturn ion and I went to my local hardwoods store and I bought like I forget when I was getting I've got some ash and some others anyway I got some good. Dick. Stock and I then leaned it up on my trunk and pulled out a an saw broke down and got it in my car like I was that kind of guy. MONOSSO. So this is this is I need. Forty studs and a few twelve foot boards. But literally less than a dozen sheep siding in less than six sheep of be for the roof like simple fun a little too much. I could rent a truck and Janet there but I can shift here so. The way we're going though nothing nothing too exciting. It's been a Fairly hectic summer. This kind of balancing all over the place who well, for me I'm finally backed working on the Gal rocker and the mess around with that, and of course of come up with I. Think I, mentioned this a little bit last time but I perfected the technique for cutting rockers, Lotto Ivan been watching your posts about this now. That a barrier Brussels. I love the accuracy you're getting from the jigs at you're creating in using. Are you causing Peter Galbraith, any gas by doing it this way as opposed to some other smokers traditional way I don't think. So we'll mind will Mike Cook Nick relies heavily on having much stretchered. If you don't have much strategic or something like that it's not gonNA work. So Galbraith's Miss Work You know know his his is a router, a Jig that basically performs the same function on doing on the table saw with the data. that the I guess the kind of twist I'm doing is with my stretcher. You can cut your slots in your legs, Bursch out of the chair on a table saw and using the data stack and then Once you get your slots, cut them back in the chair and then use a rockers to lock the legs place while you drill with the stretcher. So So that hasn't been done brilliant because why wouldn't you use the thing that's GonNa hold straight when it's living as a chair exactly to hold it straight while you're. Yeah. So Anyway so I'm in the process of doing a little one of my boring videos on this technique. And I've been working on it today. So hopefully, it will come out the next maybe tomorrow we'll see we'll see how far I get along. I'm trying to do it with the pictures and a little video new voiceover over the entire thing. So I, think about a third of the way through now. All but. Anyway. It's. It's. It's it's one of those things but no, I do think the technique is pretty good. Especially if you have my strategic or you're interested in doing it needed that final little push. This might this might do it for you because it makes putting rockers answers just just a breeze just like I said it's just like cutting are drilling for box stretchers. If you're doing Bach stretcher undercarriage, it's basically the same process. But using rockers. So Nabet is pretty cool. But. Yeah. So like I said should have a video out probably by the time the listeners your this ordeal for hopefully a week or so in in. May Windsor Chair making how many rockers are being made I know obviously, you took a class with. But Yeah. A small percentage. It all depends. I think. I think that's all as far as commissions the heat's Duin. Noam really well and You know he told me the threes and he does all these rockers because people only order one or two of them. They don't order hold dining room said Oh, sure. Yeah exactly, and you can get a little bit more for a rocker but. Yeah I, know that's mainly what he's doing but a lot of people who rockers. It all depends some people you know. That's what they want they WANNA rocking chair. As some people, Hate Rock Anders. Culture makers just don't like rocking chairs whatsoever I asked that it only and I don't have any windsor furniture at all but I, I have one rocking in my entire house. It was hand me down from two generations whatever you know there's an old old probably bought in a store for the seat is like two and a half inches thick some might be the. HANDMAID's but that. That's really yet. You know that's just wondering. And one of the reasons I'm going through this a plan on building three of the. Yeah. So I WANNA make sure I got a system down make this is get all the joint is easy and repeatable as possible. But I one will probably go to my mom and then I'll make a second one for the mine is going to be retiring soon and then I'll make a third one for myself. And how much of an assembly line are you're gonNA make yourself so you're building them off. One at a time, also, I'm doing this one pretty much to plans. That were published several years ago and find woodworking Luckily, a lot of people pointed out to me a lot of the deals plans. Oh for one. The I I caught a bunch of 'em but I want someone hit me glad they did I'm hopefully I would've caught it but they give the dimensions link to the front legs It should be rare legs of the rare life should be Oh, you back leagues rocker. Anyway. But I'm building this one pretty much to the plans probably the. The next to probably deviate some somewhat from the plant. into it so. That's what's going on with me. So Gary, what are you working on the trump? I bought a used bandsaw. A Davis Wells. ooh Is Twenty inch bandsaw. She's a couple of years ago on finally got around. Wouldn't tires on it and? I got obsessed. Put a dial indicator on to see how much out round it was. Considerably out. So I have been trying to come up with a decent methods to trim the rubber tires. amstel experiment. I had my goal Santa working on it for a while and that was good. To true up the rim. So the face of the of the wheel at both sides of both faces. Is the belt Sander and that was a little bit unattractive dial indicator knows a little bit out. So I Cleaned up and the RIM cleanup but the face of it crown. But I, it's not dead on. Yeah. I'm still fussing with that. That's not. And teaching. That's what I do so. Spare time I T. Six. We'll let should be a nice bench whole which you get a all open runny. Yeah. I I I need defensive. Someone's got offense. They don't know what to do. Yeah. That's the only thing about it. It's it's nice is. You know it's missing the braking system on it, but that's no big deal for me. But it's missile defense and I really love having a fence on my band saw. My other. I had another band breakdown at Laguna breakdown of Me Fried Upton older. And I. We heard story before with Lagunas Yeah Also twenty years but even so. I have. I have. Several Years American bands on US and the motors are much. Shares. Exactly Yeah Yeah, the army had a lagoon something was happening with his motor. I think he finally got fixed I think it was some capacity issue, but he can run it for like five minutes and then it would turn off. It was like. He was helping his kids scouters, Pinewood Derby cars, news time staying on for that. Yes Five minutes you've got five minutes. And you gotTA wait a couple of minutes where I think is just overheating and tripping some capacity descriptors. Breaker Beth think was a capacitor or something. I forgot I, think you finally got it. I replaced my capacitor that was fine, and then it was overheated would replace bearings in the motor and then it's kept overheating and then it fried the winding. So yeah, and spending to rewind the motor. A little bit more expensive to buy a new motor from Laguna. So I'm selling to a student who says, oh, he's imparts I'll take it. Okay Yeah. Three hundred bucks. So between selling that one and working on the your twenty inch, are you bandsaw? Hi, my name is Gary. Woodworking school with I had salts. Kashin's. At the Current Count There's a fourteen inch par matic. Bought another Laguna Unused Laguna, sixteen inch and then I have a sixteen inch as American and then a thirty six inch a snowflake. Wow and it is the first step that's. It's possible to recovery man. Not going to be taken in for quite some time. You know he finds well Chris My Years American sixteen inch bandsaw. I used to tell the story to my students. I was right down the hall from Great Sooty Tool right down on from Giancana Machi- show. And we're up on the second floor and you know big hallways because it used to be a huge furniture factory and there was a tower with an elevator in the stairwell in it and everyone while with fire fire alarm go off in the lights would flash tonight we'll tell my students look is that happens if the fire alarm goes off, just follow the lights, go to the stairwell and you'll exit right into the parking lot. It'd be really easy 'cause I am dragging my sixteen inch. American bands with me you're right You're on your other. Yeah, it's Near and dear to my heart, and so it has a casting pattern on it and I found a six inch join which I need like a whole head. In Colorado, some years ago probably ten or fifteen years ago with the same casting patterns so I had to have that. He has. So it's a sickness. That's fantastic. Well Gary I think most people know you from you know your your books and articles and you been a big time. Contributor to. Find Woodwork magazine I think that's why I saw you but tell us bit in right now and I guess for for a long time now you've been running the northwest woodworking studio but before we get into what you're doing there, tell us a little bit about your background and how you came to be where you are now. Well I was going to big ten school university. No. Yeah that wasn't fun. So I transferred to a school on the West Coast that had I don't know twelve hundred students, a small liberal Arts College, and while there I would hang out with these. These physics majors in these physics majors had this completely different attitude towards reality than a literature major I was literally, I could give you thirty pages on anything and not say anything of substance. Worse. So I would hang out with these guys and we were talking about stuff that was just astonishing to and it was it was fascinating and so. After. I graduated actually I. told the story of this online lecture just gave. Staying in this house covered with weeds and blackberry bushes trees back in part of town do people didn't even know the house existed and a bunch of hippies living Aaron I was walking around the House one day and and I found this thing in the in the weeds. This transition wouldn't amply. I thought well, what the heck does this do I mean a ham plane but. What does it do? So I gave it to to a friend to hang on to for me and I went to back to mid West for winter. That cured me Of the Mid West and. I was a Volkswagen mechanic in Ann. Arbor Michigan. That's good. Though another big Tom Big ten schools and came back to Portland and. Got That Ham plane and started thinking about. Doing, something with my hands, my my friend, Joel the physicist he's an astronomer still in. Hawaii. was doing stuff with a medal as NFL. Well, that's cool. I don't WanNa do metalwork woodworking. GRANDPA did carpentry my dad built some stuff I never did anything with my dad. But I thought this might make sense and so. Those those folks really influenced my choice to try to learn how to. Be a woodwork. How Yeah That's crazy. A transition plane found in the weeds like I've never seen one in person but 'cause round. Does not. Commonplace but. I've got I've actually got one that works in. My mansion just reminds me yeah, that's inch. Oh yes. Editor Major to woodworking author. That's pretty good. Did You Take any classes or any programs or did you just there was nothing? Ariza nothing. There may have been I take that back. There may be something to Cranbrook cranbrook. Sean so that's I know the name. Yeah Michigan somewhere someone outside of Detroit. So Mabel stuff at cranbrook and there was probably wristy I don't think Rochester was doing their program yet but everything was pretty much back east and I WANNA go back there and there was nothing on the west coast so. I went I did a road trip with my friends, another physics major and we were down to the bay area and then at this gallery. They told me about this woodworker who lived up north of the city. In town called Lena's and I went and visited our carpenter and. Well there. There you go. Yeah. That was pretty cool. Years years ago and. He had a French program Lena's craftsman guild but. Locals. Couldn't afford to move down there so I just. Took some Energy from that and taught myself I spent four years in a basement trying to teach myself how to be a woodworker. Now now in that time, I guess that's when you started to develop kind of your design style I've seen you build an all kinds of different styles, but you know when when when you think about something when you're designing for a client or for yourself. What type of design frameworks that run through your mind or looks like mostly. At least in my mind from what I've seen of your work you tend to lean a little bit towards contemporary side I have seen you do a lot of Shaker type stuff to which, of course, is also kind of contemporary, right? Yes. Cow that work. Yeah I either a lot of green and green stuff. And written some articles about that that work and Pieces based on arts and crafts motifs a brought when I. Start out to design a piece in his client driven. I have a whole series of steps that I go through. To make sure that I'm going to be delivering the right piece because I don't want to deliver a piece of hasn't been. Oh that's not what I was talking about. That's not that's wrong. It's wrong. I am not like some I know who? Who just tell the client this is what you're GONNA get That's not me. So I find out the functional requirements because I'm building furniture after all. Matt Sculpture. So find out the functional requirements make sure. I. Can satisfy those make sure this is important that I can get it out of my shop and into their home you don't WanNa have to take out a door, right? Why would I know this? Are. Well I I tell this story I don't know if. I used to work for. hospital, Major University hospitals and We ordered a emaar island time and the forgot to check with facilities. Check out the place they ended up having to knock out an entire wall up to the third story of a twenty story building and reinforcing the floor to get this or I in their. Crab, voted that trump's might by neighbor. First House, who knocked on the door will you please tell my wife that all refrigerators are the same? They're not John. And I was like, what did he dealing wish and I walked over and like? That half. All right there you're going to take that wall out. There I'm telling you right now. I'm just. Visit British city story. Because we're up on the second floor and there was one elevator that was good size. Four people would fit in comfortably but six would feel a little uncomfortable. So it wasn't huge and if you meander through the building, there was another elevator. Seemed like a mile away but not quite that far. that a car could fit we were close to that. So John had brought a CNC and much review was turned a master with CNC was for. But there was a guy although at the end of the building that had a roll up door to the outdoors, he was on the second floor and he could. Roll up door. And they had a forklift out there with like sixteen tons of concrete on the back end of it and he fork-lifted this. Up and they dragged it down the hall and it left a crease in the trump rate. and. We get all of us on the second floor gathered close to this guy has shop to see if the floor was. Not. Under for sure watch from the side. Crazed. Yeah Yeah those things happen things happen so. So if you were going to a design a piece for yourself, what what type of style would Lin towards or is your house filled with just a menagerie of different styles of furniture Of Nationality Is kind of national got an arts and crafts style bet I've got to finish. It means finished for years. My stool design I've got a bunch of those decision influence. Those. Are Super Popular told. You know if I don't get Geez, I haven't thought about building a piece from my phone. So long I can't afford my work. God. Warning. Get furniture that it took me years to figure this out. But the only way I could get furniture was if I built a second loss built the secretaries if I had if I had a client and they're making a piece. Or were ordered a piece that I want and I built a second one and I cut my joyner retirement half that made a lot of sense. But yes, I don't not take clients these days. And sidestepping the question I don't have free I? Why Would strike me I don't know it's sort of a I really searched for a kind of simplicity that has a pulse to it. So it's not just not modern God's not modern, but it has. That Wabi Sabi affect that kind. There's something going on there. It's hard to put finger on it, but there's some kind of energy to the to the peace that emanates from it, and that's what I'm. That's what I'm all. I can understand that. Yeah I've yeah. My house is a Menagerie Abud different styles and stuff was big time into green and green living-rooms pretty much all green and green and and Anita Couch Couch in in Mahogany works nights with grain, green. But but now I'm into Windsor so those don't go. Oh What they do in my house and it's an comfortable. Yes. It depends on the paint job he it. Will make a difference. Does the chair with? Curtis, became A. Voice coming out to my school. The first one I did was well as challenge but. Painted sort of a red undertone and then a black top. Yeah. Yeah and that's a nice look. Yeah that is a compact sitting in a wind through painted that same stall right now. So anyway but tells about. So you're doing you know you're doing work, you had clients and stuff like that, and then you opened up the I assume you opened up the northwest woodworking studio. So how did that come to be and well? I was bouncing around in the mid nineties. I wrote a router Brooke and then I wrote guided joining any up and so I was traveling around the country teaching it at other places Airmont, which is a great place love that place. And Peters Valley and Inter syringe and I had when Peter Korn left Anderson Ranch I interviewed for the job. Didn't get it Oh to take his place. And back to win it was. I had another shot at at the job and Gail for Dell and I were the finalists for that job. Came a second again, I was getting tired of coming in second. Mile and so then I was teaching at a local school. Oregon. School of Arts and crafts, and they asked me to apply for the department and I said. Know I'm thinking about moving to San Francisco I've met a gal down there. And they said really want you to apply for this position so I. Thought. All right. I'll take on this position that'll be great I i. really loved the place. For it and they went and hired a recent MFA graduate out of San Diego. Can Again I said, that's A At, at the time, it was a nineteen, ninety six. I said you know there's there's two directions of schools are going in a lot of them are going the our furniture direction and that's not really me. I build functional stuff but. I don't do cabinets per se. So I'm looking for spot in the middle there and. So I came up the idea and and yeah decide I could decided that I could do and started in that old furniture factory a still taking on commissions and and then doing evening classes I started nineteen ninety seven and then bought a building and two thousand five and we're still there things are changing. Her change. So we have switched over to full online programs. Just chew lifers for selection and so Yeah. I just got I got move. You know I gotta make changes because Co is the real deal. Yeah. It looks like it's going to be with us for well unfortunately but but but yeah, you got some. But on the positive side, you are doing a bunch of these online classes and lectures and it gives people an opportunity like me WHO's a near? Oregon to to you know take a lecturer take a class from. Yeah. So that's Yeah. That's that's been a barrier of mine because there's nothing within hours and hours of me. You know I WANNA go to Chicago I can go. To class of I, want to go to three hours away from me and Ohio still but I get somewhere. But that's a that's a bigger commitment. You know there's You know pivoting here. Now, who is kind of? improving on or opening up opportunities that weren't there before. Right right yeah. I I really thought about it long and hard, and then as a student who's got technical skills that I do not to this. You know we could do some stuff. So I started thinking about it and we started with A. Million of lumber two hour lecture. We fifty folks and that was great. That's just great. So you know I'm trying to grow this we're trying our first online workshop hands on workshop. On inlay. And so that's GONNA be. Real Litmus test for us to see how the hands on stuff go buying all sorts of cameras and gear and stuff to make sure that people can see what I'm doing and I can see what they're doing. That's So that's going to be interesting settled as Though Limited, the twenty folks were got a few spots left limit to twenty folks. and. Do some inlay stuff. What what other? What other stuff do you have coming up? Well, we did Class last week on hand planes. But I'm GONNA do a little bit more indepth class. Just. Put It on the schedule in. September. Okay. Ham played spoke Shane scrapers. So three hour three hours one night, take off three hours on the Thursday night. So a Tuesday and Thursday and You know these are workshops that I've been giving for years I'm just adapting them for an online audience. Which means a little bit more prep-work in advance like I can tell people. This is exactly what you need because I have all this stuff in my studio. Make sure. Stuff at their shops. So there's that one. There's another one coming up on sharpening August twenty fifth. Top five machines. My top five machines which do not include a table saw August twelfth, and then in Les Secrets is operatives seventh and eighth. So. All of this stuff is I, hope building to enough support so I can get my mastery program off the ground in an online fashion. So the flipped for the past twenty years I've had a mastery program, a local program just as program where people would come in from out of town, and then a resident program will take bench space in student and. Cheese when I first moved I had I want students. One person handle and the numbers have been dwindling and I thought well, maybe it's traveling maybe it's. It's hard to take class. With strangers in, it's hard to do it in someone else's shop. So the online master's program cut. In half and try that starting in. October though. So how long is a mastery program? Is it for and what's a skill level you're looking for black people that might be interested I think is for everyone except beginners accounts it is both technique and design. About and so there are exercises that I do for technique in their exercise we do for design. So people develop their own style. That's what I'm after I'm not interested in people copying what I do I want people to discover what they love and So we do it basically on this sub- trimester system just. Starting to fall. Ten weeks. Two or three hour lecture every every week for ten weeks and there's a QA session there's office hours people can chat with me. my guessing this is going to be on Zoom I'm not sure yet if they can handle our needs but I'm thinking it's going to be on soon and then so we start in October ten weeks and then in. January ten weeks until sometime in March and then in. Early, may we'll do ten weeks late April, we attend these summertime. There's a project which is really fun project, and then we started again you're to that fall. So it's a two year program. There is a hundred, forty, four hours contact time with me. Wow. That's nice and. It's been a great program. It's been really fun and it's life changing. I can say that I have students who wanted to James because it takes on this I was GonNa ask you have. You know some maybe not well known, but success stories he'll. Come in come through and what they've accomplished. Well I tell this guy just POPs to mind. Tom who who wrote me a note just a handful from tenure. He's a real success story I showed you images of his work he'd go. Yeah. Okay. He. Came farther than anyone else in the program he started out as a rookie didn't really know a whole lot and his dovetail boxes. One of the projects is to dovetail box was a toolbox and it was okay. Nice. But. He really came a long way. He's a successor. Jeff O'Brien sells a lot of stuff online. Now, he's another success story. Kate Fox who was a? Veteran and suffered some damage there came back instead with me for three years, and then she's doing a lot of stuff. She had an article published was more intended magazine. She's doing a lot of handwork. She doesn't six hundred chest. Norse six four chests. Hand Hewn Yeah. So there's a number of success stories. Awesome. Tight. Erica was a local student and we had six local students at your and she had three kids and sometimes you bring the kids I think the eldest at the time was maybe six or seven years old. And she'd bring the kids and her husband picked up the kiss and then he take him on and she was doing the work. In between year one and year two, she dropped another kid soot and then finish up the program. Evil and she did Great Merck. Cable complain all the time ago. Well, let me tell you start by. Your she did I mean, she did she was amazing and she does beautiful. So yeah. There's a lot of success. It's a commitment and if people WANNA become furniture makers and they decided to to really do it, I can train them. Yeah I think. What. Struck me about your program is the I guess the emphasis you have on design and allowing the students to find their own voice in in what they're working on. So that's fantastic. People are terrified. I can imagine. Shake I haven't gotten class. He said I'm all about Shaker every single pc came out with was art deco and I could. Hear. Every piece was our Dick and they were gorgeous. But he said Yeah I'm all about Shakur and then he would do this art. Vocabulary that you can learn and. It's not hard. Should you see the stuff that's designed out? There you go. God. I can do better that and can't but you need to learn some stuff you need to learn how to think about. Proportions and how to describe a piece to yourself. So you asked me earlier about. Designing a piece I think language is really important just because I'm a literature major, but you put words to a piece when you're designing, you say, well, it's it's going to be warm and a feminine or is going to be a rustic and country or whatever those whatever those words are. It helps in your design brain think about stuff. and. I. Think. That's a these little things you can. You can learn about in in design is fascinating because it's everywhere it is every we are. So you're we're staring at these computers that were designed by self. The world was designed by some some being you decide who that being was but world of natural design astonished for bugs to. Leaves Star Patterns Oh yeah yeah, in the. Of It are. Are. So. Cool. So. Cool. So the the class I'm sending out a pattern, a little spiral spiral pattern. And it really simple and you can do it dots, but it looks good in. Know set stuff that we respond to. We are constantly responding to design. You Open you go into a nice bar hotel someone's house kyle. We go to yours house and we see this green and green and we go. That's good. I like immediately it is. It is visceral. It happens pre intellectual you'd happen. In get to touch it. You say I like, and then what are you up and touch as you have to is furniture. Right I think there's a lot. To think about. Yeah, it is. It is. So tell us a little bit about now you have the school but you also have been a great contributor both to find woodworking, but you have your own books and your own videos and stuff like that. So tell us a little bit about. What you're doing on that front too well, my last book was The story of how I found this win transitions lane right. We're on the cast for that Yeah Yeah. Go. Ahead with handmade crudely. A focus in the age of distractions. So that book's been out and that's done well. I'm working on another book, but you can't you can't raise an agent. No. Nobody's talking I'm writing a book on creativity and. Done I just. I just gotTa, give it its fifteenth rewriting, and then they'll be really. saw working that I'm working on this online graduate because I I bought a piece of property some years ago. With a rundown house on it. This will get you a sense of the design. Aesthetic of the previous owner, it was a garage three car garage then turned into sort of a house with garage. And the front door opened into the bathroom, of course. Look outside tour. So. I kind of blew up and. Got, this little six, hundred square foot shop that had to get rebuilt and I'm looking at going. This is my fifth shock. I should do a video on setting up shop. So that sort of one of the online, the online idea came from and now it's Kind of switched over to these classes to see if it's going to work, and then I may start doing some videos on on setting up shop because I. Think it's a fun fun tablet and you said it's about six hundred square feet. It's compared to my five thousand square feet call county exactly exactly. But I, mean I think you'd get a lot of interest on that. You know it's A. It's a it's same problems always the same problems. In a basement shop, it was about a hundred and fifty square fees. Fish couldn't issued apply with Downer down to it. But I had a joiner and bandsaw at arm on their. Immigration Hall. Yeah and then I moved to another six hundred square foot shop that was. A former. Diesel mechanics shop and he had cut all the. What that was about bottom piece, it connects trust together. It's not collar tie and stop higher anyways this trouser know better than me. Yeah, we're six sixteen feet long to connect the two answers of the rafters rafter todd. Oh okay. Cut them all out. He cut all the rafter is out. So terrific was just kind of sitting on the walls oldest. Black Bill. Yeah. Yes. No. So I replaced all those had shop there for a while and I moved to that furniture factory. That John. Yeah that was a great place that was that was but And then started to change so much. I said I better. Get on. It seemed like find a place. Why Bother I bought an old barn was built in nineteen, thousand eight and I'm fairly convinced that they ran horses through and a great space. Cease. Yeah Yeah I can imagine I can imagine especially that area it's really gotten popular last ten years long. It's not yeah. I can't believe it. So one of the things I. Want to talk about about with you is your podcast so you do will help. You podcast. It's about You know I. think he episodes about fifteen to twenty minutes something like that. But they're very, very interesting. So I run out of steam. It's Any lecture from you. I. I, I just come up with topics. Every once in a while interview someone I interviewed tumbling. Ron Hawk. Bogs and every once in a while I, get up to curse to call someone up and say, Hey, you wanNA. Talk. But most of the time I'm just staring out my window just place in the country. thinking. You know what's what's seems to be going on for me and. Not In life but. I. Just. A little. Yeah sometimes she had an interesting stories like I like the one the real ones last one, the one before that you had. The I guess we're designing something for a church and you thought the eighth or too big. So you. Know everybody was right. It's really and that's one of the things that I've learned and that I really try and get my students to understand is front and load the process. If you're if you're not getting design, you know taking someone else's plan and you're designing the peace. There are so many things to consider if you don't front end load that process you end up in the middle going how they do here you know but you can make model and that's what I did for this church job. I made a model with these eight by eight legs because I have eight by eight posts in my shop I thought well I could do that because they had these giant trees if they'd taken from the property and use those post and they were trying. To foot diameter. Eight by eight you for again just like the trees take out. That would fit. And then I sit in the shop I said Nano these look like elephant trophies. And I made six by six legs now they disappeared. And just disappeared. So making a cardboard model and that's what I did I made a full scale cardboard model. Stakes just a couple of hours. It's so easy is so valuable. You get so much information I did one for a client one time they wanted to just drawers and and I made it I did make the drawers and just drew them on and just basically made the the shape and proportions right and I got to sit in the bedroom with a couple arguing back and forth or you can get by you can you can't you can't get by it at all Oh. Yes, you. Can. Can get the piece but. I tell you if you do a model for client and. From our carpenter appointment big wretches. Brat when I went to visit art. he had this octagonal show wouldn't octogonal showroom in the of course it would. Yes. And it was wide open and is often his shot making noise and I just walked through the showroom and he had all these models up on this shelf that ran around the perimeter of this optimism, and there are all these little pieces and so I got to talk to find and he said Yeah I can't really draw but I can I can do stuff on her bands. So that's do knockout these models, and if you make a model, a quarter scale model for client pieces sold I've never had clients her donkeys five made the effort to to model so. Yeah it's it's really something. So valuable for older because it forces you to go how do I put all these pieces I can't put together once. These two legs and Apron together at least two legs. So forces you to think through the process. Really really. Yeah. Yeah. Do you use any online tools or what on Wednesday computer aided design tools? Design were absolutely not absolutely not. Okay. And and I'll tell you why when I took this winter jer making a week with Curtis began earning and. Increased. Sense. 'cause I asked him about whether he did any cad work no no, he did not. Said why would I do something on a computer that takes me an hour when I could do something I love. It takes me our. Yeah. That's that's that's curtis right there. And it really makes sense. Yeah. More importantly though I think there's a connection between your hand and your brain that's important to maintain and I and I know that we're getting smarter and stupider with our constant use of computer. and. I was talking with a former student today dropped off some great books he's not going to continue. So is his library but doctors now going to start online kindergarten ain't. GonNa Work Folks. No. Will. So. I'm doing online stuff. But I think when it comes to design in particular your ability to connect with your brain in your hand. Having them, send messages back and forth each other's is fun. It's really fun and valuable. I know that there are plenty of programs out there. They can spend the piece around into cool stuff. That's that's great. I. I liked just drawn stuff on. Do Mathematics played around that way because it leads you to other ideas might best tables came out of a design session where I was trying to design a desk for client and this other shake came up and I love it is a great be. Yeah. So you never know what's going to happen and that sort of serendipity is I think more liable to happen with a pencil mouse. Yes. Definitely. Definitely, I, can agree with that. So So what's is there anything? We didn't cover that you want to promote or anything that's coming up that we haven't talked about yet. Well, I've gotTA brand of Hungarian hotdogs coming out in, it's sold with Chile that. Trying to. I, really, like folks to come, check out the website was woodworking dot com and check out the online classes. The. Workshop that's coming up might be challenged. Yeah. We'll be a challenge for East coasters unless might house like my sweetie because we're start five five o'clock west coast time on Friday night but then Saturdays classes. Starts to three o'clock our time six years a job working on on that timing aspect but. The master program will be open to everyone in the state. So it's GonNa be a time. So they folks can take advantage of it and come in build some cool stuff. We build eleven pieces over the course of the two years. So wow, it's cool. I forgot to tell you about that piece we do in the summertime. Now is it you have you have you heard of this I'm sure you have the two by four by eight project. Yes, I have heard about it but explain it for. Basically you get that much material to. Buy forages by eight foot. I will let students take a two by four by four footers, but you with that much material and you have to cut it up carefully to create whatever you're going to make autumn. Journal and some really interesting stuff. Really, it's fascinating and amazing. Yeah. There used to be some online challenges like that. A few years ago but those kind of died out and it's kind of a shame. There's some really cool stuff. Unfortunately, what am I students one somerset two by four by eight he thought manages. disarticulated model of a hand with fingers and knuckles stuff. Dylan now, Dylan. But we got some cool stuff last year we got a really cool music stand. So yeah, there's lots of possibilities in that much that much manure. What is that? Two thirds? Eight th there's five hundred board feet. So. Now. See what you can make it over summer, and then we started in their second year billion stuff and build a chair. Is Fun progress no sounds awesome. Well, let's move onto our fort virtuous. I'll start off on just drinking your run of the Mill Guinness Stout Tastes great less filling. People don't believe me but actually, Guinness Style is one of the most locale beers out there. Well, I know, I know that strange south. To you go to locate your employer and get an IP A in. Two years and you're on your ass. I started drinking stout instead. Doesn't pack a punch. Yeah. True. Exactly. So Sean, are you drinking? So I picked up Ohio Brewery Ryan Deiss Brewery Cincinnati. And their wildly, which is a lighter. Ale with a pineapple and passion fruit. kind of a weird summary. Kind of thing but not bad. I have one. Okay. Sure that Gary it's out of Hood River it's called Froma. P. F. R. E. IM frem pills ner really good. Really Nice. Chris lying it named that is story behind that I'm sure someone you know. Because you know. Fat Bastard has been taken. Yeah. All the good names. Nature got. Exactly will appreciate that well so Gary Working, folks find you if they want to reach out well, you can find me at northwest woodworking dot com. Making find podcast there but we're on patio paint and on apple two spotify all that stuff. But really, and the podcast name is splinters with splinters Gary Rogowski because. Actually had one episode on splinters. Because there are some good stories Oh. Yeah. I had one yesterday I was I was turning all my favorite thing to turn in the entire world being sarcastic cures kill and drive. And, my head and I was sitting there last night. I. Took shower all this kind of stuff I'm sitting there in bed. All sudden gun. dammit. I got a splint right here and I had to go all the way back down the shop to get my super. You know tiny tweezers add sharp point grab that. Have you ever had a splinter in your hand that scans sort of win over but grew over it, but it was still there and still sort of bothered. I had one once and. I like for months it still argue and I. And the splinter arose out of my skin. So, much pressure behind it. It was like So Weird. Yeah I've had some doozy's and uh, yeah. They are focuses of attention. Yes and Can Get all. Heard Horror. Stories I've never worked with Wendy over her. Is African for splinter would yeah. That's what I've heard I. Think. And and working with firs just as bad douglas firs. Yeah. Nasty material and you think everything's fine and and I'm such a dope because I'll be you know looking at the would and it smooth. It and I'll run my handle on what happens you get a split her. It is for they'll just lift up these corners of just lift up. and. Anyway. But yeah listener. So check out if you haven't already check out splinters. CAST in it's it's absolutely fantastic. said it's like a it's like a mini lecture from you. It's a it's a great one to listen. Thank you so Sean Working Folks Find You. Shawn. W. Seventy eight on most social media's how about you kyle. You can always find me at Barton Dot instagram the only social media platforms matters, and with that just route rats it up for this show. So Kevin already please subscribe to the show on the pot catcher of your choice just search for the modern woodworkers association. They know never miss any of our exciting episodes while you're there. Please leave us a review. Thanks for listening. If you can't if you can follow us on twitter Mwa underscore national or on instagram at a underscore podcast or like us on facebook the best thing you can do though is tell a friend word of mouth goes a long way in sharing Christian.

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316 - Taliban Wins

Republic Keeper - with Brian O'Kelly

59:17 min | Last month

316 - Taliban Wins

"Not who of us and it doesn't matter what color what nation your phone. How much money you. God we all share the same name. We are americans good morning and welcome to the republic. Keep mer podcast. We have a massive show today. So let's jump right on in hosted by brian kelly and produced by coal accounting. Let's massive but it's the same sixty minutes so we are going to rapid fire through a whole bunch of stuff for you and welcome to the republic broadcast. My name is brian. Kelly as he said. I will be your host for today's adventure and coles at the controls we broadcast live monday through friday from cottage lake washington. So wherever you are. Thanks for joining us. Let's kick off like we always do by thanking god for good health and the ability of your sharing with you. i'm I'm excited that you've made a choice to join us. Considering you have a lot of a lot of really great choices out there many of them are professionally produced by big companies and have big budgets. And thank you for deciding that what we do is valuable. And i'm i'm grateful for your time and attention rudy. Talk a lot about afghanistan today. And i'd like to hear from you on that quite a bit Eight six six eighty three eleven as you know we don't take phone calls except when video clips are planned so if you call now it's totally useless but when you see a video clip play that's a great time to all the phone Somebody get into a few things before we get into afghanistan and And then we're gonna spend a lot of time on that so let's just jump right in The first thing is there has been a long standing practice throughout europe in almost all the european countries. Where if someone could demonstrate that. They lost their property. Due to the nazis if jewish person could prove that hey. My family owned these paintings which happened right. People owned jewish families owned paintings and jewellery and other things that were extremely valuable and all of that was confiscated by the nazi regime and sold off to use for their purposes as people were put into prison camps right and so now the descendants of some of those people in all throughout europe had had opportunity to go and place a claim that says hey. This was my family's property. this is my family's art work. Whatever it if they can demonstrate it. They the reparations or whatever right well poland has passed a law now in the and so there's a rift between israel in poland. So let me just read the historic israel on saturday. Condemned poland's approval of law that restricts the rights of holocaust survivors or their descendants to reclaim property seized by the country's former communist regime regime and israel's recalling their top diplomat in protests it's of be gilder pulling their ambassador out of Out of europe with polish government is saying is look That was a communist state. That was the product of the nazis. That's not us. That's not us. It's not even the polish people. The polish people that was imposed on them. And it's been a really really long time so if you haven't by now demonstrated your claim Good luck is kind of what they're saying. And so what they said is It establishes that any administrative decision issued thirty years ago or more to no longer be challenged meaning property ours had their homes or businesses. Season the communists eric longer. Come yet compensation so. I don't dunno if it's right or wrong i just wanted to share it with you guys. Decide what what you think about it. nancy pelosi last week. Raised the The pay of how staffers we were discussed that now. She's apparently on on thin. Ice with a bunch of the moderate democrats Nine moderate house democrats told speaker pelosi on friday that they won't vote for a budget. A budget resolution meant to pay three and a half million trillion dollars. Pave the way for three and a half trillion dollars in social policy changes. So there's some some moderate democrats are standing up to her and the word is that nancy pelosi may be at risk of her speakership. In the next you know time that there's a speaker election those elections can be called for anytime by members but a- apparently Her supposed iron grip on on the house is not as solid as it once was partly because they they lost seats in in One of the things about the election. That's so interesting. Is you know every every landslide election that we've had obama was landslide in two thousand eight. Bush was a landslide in two thousand four. George w was Reagan in eighty four Every time the clinton in his second time was a was not a landslide but he had a considerable showing it was reelected in all of these cases in all of these cases the presidential party the party at one the white house picked up seats. Twelve fifteen. I think it was twenty one seats when obama got elected is just huge. Right biden got elected lost thirteen seats and so the reality is the democrat brand is damaged and tarnished and not succeeding and partly. That's because of nancy pelosi. Yeah there's a term in media called jumping the sharp and it seems. Yeah and it's a tv term relating to win fonzie on happy days jumped a shark. It's when you go over the point of no return and people start tuning out and start not paying attention and seeing you kind of being not as good as you were or crazy in some cases and it seems like the democrats especially pelosi in these more. Radical people have jumped. The shark and politically are really tuning out. A lot of moderates. And i think they've overplayed their hand a whole bunch of things and it's it's definitely catching up with it seems Sydney australia. they They have a covert lockdowns going on and authorities are tightening restrictions and says increasing fines ramping up policing in sydney in a bid to contain the outbreak of the delta varian and australia's most populous city new south wales state reporter for sixty six cases and community saturday up nineteen percent. So here's what's this is. Wow this is crazy so you go to Gotta sydney and if you you know what it is if get arrested if they catch you on the street and you're not supposed to be you know the is now i do not do you think it's what do you think is like slap on the wrist. Couple hundred bucks probably not five grand five grand for quarantine breaches three thousand dollars for exercising anywhere outside of guidelines. Okay okay coming to a city near you. I think i had an once again. All this in sydney all this chaos. They started it after one. Single person died of cove in the last like what did. What did we talk about this. I think we talked about this on our seattle show the other day. The city of seattle is mandating vaccines for city employees. Do you know when the last death wasn't seattle from covet. No eleventh jenny durkan. I don't know what it is now. But last tuesday when they did was monday. Maybe it was monday last monday when they do the press conference jenny and jason's lee and dow constantine and they announced the for washington state king county and seattle that vaccines would be mandated for employees. Jenny durken got up. There and said in our last cova death in seattle was july eleventh and we hope that's the last one was august as a month later. So here's what translation translation cove not killing anybody in seattle. That's what she said. Cove is not killing anybody in seattle. Why why is nobody dying in seattle. Why was it only one person incident in australia. Whatever caused the whole lockdown died right. Why is nobody dying from this. Because like every virus in the history of the world it becomes more contagious and less lethal and we develop good therapeutics to help us to manage the virus to help us to to fight right. This is just the nature of it. now there is a apparently. I wanna look into it more. Before i make a big clamp about it but there is at least anecdotal information from some people that i trust who work in pediatric healthcare that they seeing a an uptick in cases amongst children and more serious cases amongst children which might make sense if the virus mutated my may make sense so if the delta variant is more threatening to kids and we don't know i don't know that it is but if it is that's a d that starts to change the discussion right because the discussion up till now has been kids. Don't get sick kids. don't die. This is not a problem for kids. So we'll see what what the what the evidence starts to show. I know this that the seattle children's hospital at the height of the kovin when we had the the first wave of the second wave all that there. icu's were never packed with covert nations. They are now and so. That's anecdotal. But i've seen to other articles from physician saying that they're seeing more kids and so We'll see what happens Our family were children's and so took me off to that and so it is what it is now oregon in oregon Kid governor kate brown. Who could not find her national guard when the antifa was attacking the courthouse when antifa was literally fire-bombing the federal building in portland with human beings inside who they hoped to kill in the fire. Kate brown couldn't find her national guard. But oh my gosh. There's a spike in kovic cases in oregon and k. Brown has found the national guard. Oregon's governor said friday that she will send up to fifteen hundred national guards troops to hospitals around the state to assist. Healthcare workers were being pushed to the brink by surgery. Cova nineteen cases driven the delta variant. Goner kate brown. A democrat translation. A military hater said the first group of five hundred guard members will be deployed next friday to serve as material and equipment in the most stricken hospitals and to help with cove in nineteen testing amongst other things. And that's just par for the course. Typical democrat the best thing. You can see the military as as waiters. Remember wasn't a bill. Clinton made a bunch of servicemembers service waiters at a white house event or was that obama. Which one of these disrespectful disgusting democrats did that tour servicemembers. Sorry i don't remember this. Oh exactly the craziest thing. She's done because just last week. I don't remember. We discussed on friday but she passed in hut for saying in high school. You don't have to have a reading writing math. Requirement graduate no academic requirements at all. Just check the wilcox exactly in the name of it will encourage more people of color to graduate because people of color are too stupid to learn how to reading writing and math. Just how insulting is that right. And just you know that's part of the course if you're a leftist. You're a bigot. It go together you cannot. You cannot be a democrat a not be a big at. You have to be because if you don't believe that people have natural advantage to for being white in america you're just not at home in the democratic party. You have to be a racist. Absolutely now governor. Cuomo i was wrong. I said governor cuomo would resign. I was dead wrong. Governor call did resign. Apologize for being wrong but i do believe that. He has no intention of retiring from public life. He's absolutely all about it. And it looks like the new york. Assembly is going to try and help him. This is just gross. Dave decided the that they won't try to impeach him. There's gonna be no impeachment procedures against andrew cuomo. Well what does that mean that means that the whole nursing home scandal is totally off the radar as far as the new york legislatures concern that maybe criminal charges that somebody brings her civil suits that somebody brings but there's the new york legislature site slater's easy for me to say as wash my mouth. I can't do a thing with it. New york legislature can't be bothered to look into the deaths of those seniors that were caused by andrew cuomo's malfeasance. They can't be bothered to look into whether or not the big payday he had on. His book was generated by staff. Employees in the governor's mansion who helped him write it. They can't be bothered or too busy. he's quitting. That's good enough for us. You know what it's not good enough. You're not doing your job there. It's it's disgusting show and on top of it too. I don't know if you saw. But i don't remember which who was. But they said well he's out of office now. That's all that matters. There's no matters but you'll remember. They tried to impeach trump when he was leaving office after he left office. They impeach such a great point coal right. They impede private citizen at that point on all the guys that he wouldn't be able to run again. Which is what they should do of cuomo. Considering how many scandals had a year this year anyway yeah degree point call. i mean. that's the whole point right. They keep going after trump even though he's not office but they're but they're not after andrew cuomo Now onto afghanistan. this is just it's stunning. it's shocking and you can leave the mic on for these call. Because i'm not sure if there's anything to the audio the first one is The kabul airport has been absolutely overrun with people just absolutely overrun as c. Seventeen taking off. People are crowded in front of them on the runway so that they can't move and hanging off the airplane and so what they've got is to apache helicopters that are literally clearing the runway. They fly close to the ground. With the rotors forward right. So people get out of the way to clear the runway so that the plane can can take off. Here's here's what that looks like. See the back of the c. Seventeen way in the back and The apaches are in the front coming down the runway to make sure people stay off the runway. That's how they are making room for the plane to take off right and the reason is because of. Here's the next video. This is a c. Seventeen and what you'll see here. Is people hanging off of the wheels and the the engines and so on so that working call. Let's see so here we go. Here's the video. See people hanging off the win here and Hanging off the wheel. Well we go and maybe didn't show there but either way the next video that i'm not gonna show is of those planes taking off them being in the air and people falling from them because they were trying to hang onto the wheels or whatever just to the engines just to get out of kabul and this is all led to Just this morning. The united states has suspended all flights out of kabul because of the dangerous conditions on the runway as we saw their people continues swarmed the runway even though while plans are taking off just to try and get an opportunity to get out and as i think it was about twenty or thirty minutes ago to. Us troops shot and killed two armed. Men at the kabul airport is well. That's all the information we have right now. We just know is to our men at the airport. We don't know what they were doing or what they were up to but to our men were shot and killed just twenty minutes ago in kabul. Yeah and So i am let me just share my thoughts on what's happening in afghanistan here and so i had a the weekend reflect right that like all of us and Talk to my son's you serve there and Yeah ron it's biden saigon for sure and what led to this. How did we get here. How did we fail for twenty years and just for perspective so we have a war college right called west point head. That's the army war college's west point. My how how do i describe the relationship my son's father-in-law agai sheer grandkids with okay. Is he's are retired army. Colonel and what he did is he was a professor at west point. He was a chair. The physics department was one and at one point. He went to afghanistan to help set up the afghan military college for their officers. My other son when he was there was there deployed with tenth group. Which is a special forces group in what they were doing is training afghan special forces training afghan military people to gain the kind of skill. Set that our special forces have on the idea that they could hold off the taliban we've invested blood and treasure in afghanistan unbelievably right. And so i think colada if you have the slide there. I don't know not sure if i put it in the right place to by the numbers thing on off it didn't say that My fault i anyway. I'll maybe i'll get it during the during the break here If we get one during one of the videos But we've lost. I think it's twenty four hundred soldier. She'll get it. I'll get it during one of the video clips because it's important. I know i know where. I've got it and want to get it wrong. But here's the point. We've invested blood and treasure there and we've we've had really really smart military people. They're training the afghans. And so what happened. How do we get here. How does the taliban takeover the country so quickly. now i'm gonna say something that really is going to offend some people. The problem is islam. The problem is an ideology that does not value individual rights. Democracy is not just an overlay that you can put on any society and that anyone would say well. Yes that makes sense. Let's do that. Let's all be in it together. It's not an overlay that you can put on any group of people. This is why it fails in so many places okay. The problem is that islam does not see the individual as special. There's no other way to say this in in the western christian construct. We've value the individual highly. Individual rights are given by god to the individual in a slum. The individual is secondary to the caliphate the caliphate. The is a is a religious political system that is designed to to manage the whole of society it's a theocracy where the individual serves the state in western thought. The state serves the individual. If you're construct is that the individual serves the state instead of the state serving you. Democracy is a fool's errand doesn't make any sense. It's why it doesn't take root. This is so easy to explain really in terms of what why it doesn't work now. How do we fail well. We fail because we approach it with a woke mentality. We fail because we instead of going over to afghanistan saying you know what this nation really needs is a good dose of christianity that would empower conversation internally about individual rights. What we did is went over there and said hey girls can go to school. Women can go to school. Women can read and drive. We went over and set all those things but the foundation of individual rights. That is the belief system necessary to maintain. Those things was never there. It was just a nice thing that happened to those people but they don't see it as a right that they should always have. It's only a right if the caliph imam says it is because there's an authority higher than the individual in terms of their their thinking and that's not just we have that too right. God who gives us the right who defines the rights that can't be taken. But in islam- the authorities the caliphate the local imam a local mullahs and so that that theocratic structure. What we should have done is gone in and said you know what the because there are ngos right and these non-governmental organizations that go in with humanitarian aid. What we should have done a civil. If you're a christian organization you get double than if you're a secular organization or a non-christian organisation because we need this country in iraq to the same problem. We need this country to change its viewpoint on individual rights if democracy is to take root. We need to have people converted here. You know it's it's not a. It's not a coincidence. That no to christian nations over the war. It's just not know chris. To christian ideology have went to war mean. Hitler wasn't a christian right. I mean that nothing. Hiller did was christian so no to christian leaders have gone to war ever ever heard me wrong semi the message to the date that it was. If there's an exception it proves the rule in all of two thousand years of history if you find one example great it'll still prove the rule. It doesn't happen. So that's why afghanistan fail more than any other thing. That wasn't because we didn't spend enough money wasn't because we didn't want to bad enough. It's because the society didn't have the underpinning of individual rights that would cause them to loves their democratic government sufficiently to to to sacrifice for it instead. What happened is we went in and fostered islam. We went in promoted islam. If you were an islamic relief agency we gave you double. We gave you double the opportunity at least right and so please silence your cell phones do this all the time anyway Computer that calls me the same time. Every day wto turnoff. Sorry about that so The we fostered islam in the country. And so what happens in those in those environments is an. I'll just say this for those of you. Who are christians. Or if you're if you're jewish or whatever you're or if you're a muslim we all attended if you're a religious person you attend tend to church where there are people who you see as taking their faith much more seriously than hold you have that that that they take their faith really seriously. They're kids your age. Guys your age right. I says the kids menu age. Because you're i mean twenty twenty one right but you know young adults that that you you take your faith seriously but you see people that that you're like man. They really take it seriously. Yeah there's definitely the the crowd that definitely you see like they're like okay so they're very much word by word definition what everything means type people and they're very very devoted in the way of their and much more than a lot of other people and so what happens. Is that in most situations when you see the person who's more voted more serious people kind of think man. I wish i was that. I'm just feel a little guilty that they're not right. Maybe you don't but that's that happens to me. I see people. I mean that guy. I know he remembers to pray better than i do. You know i wish i remember. Pray more keita's right and so what happens with the taliban and those kind of people is they become the people that the rest of the country starts to look to. Those guys are the people who take it seriously. I don't take it that seriously. Maybe if i took that seriously my life would be better and they start to see them. Many people see them as as you know religious authorities because they appear to be taking their spirituality more seriously and they are unfortunately. It's a garbage spirituality yet and as if on cue with this The chinese state run media the global times has released a statement from china itself From what happened in afghanistan. Those in taiwan should perceive that once a war breaks out. He were there once. A war breaks out in the straits. The island's defense will collapse with an hours and the us military will not come to your help. The d. dt dp will quickly surrender so once once once we attack you. Yeah they know that the us isn't gonna do anything because and they're using afghanistan as their example now they know how this administration and how we're handling all these foreign dealings and stuff and just seeing how poorly this entire situation has turned out in a matter of less than a week and a half two weeks. Would i say two months ago. When is trying to get attacked. Taiwan in the fall after the olympics and china is also come out and said that they are prepared to if they haven't already they're prepared to recognize the taliban as the legitimate government of canada afghanistan. Which will do what what will come with that. Do you think china will do that for fun. China will do it so that they can establish forward military bases closer to europe than they've ever been in exchange for that. what is the taliban. Get a partner. Who doesn't care about human rights abuses. It's a marriage made in heaven. They get taliban gets steady supply of weapons partner. That doesn't care that they're abusing their people. China gets to sell those weapons and buy their oil and have a ford military base. So yeah it's a good deal for both right now here galbraith. Who was the. Us envoy to afghanistan has come out with a statement. Says it's clossal. Failure will start our video clips off with him by the way. This is a great time to get your phone ready if you wanna call in be on the show eight six six nine eight eight eighty three eleven. Here's peter galbraith. It is a colossal failure and an is a humiliation. I mean it's it's a complete failure of a military political strategy of twenty years duration. But that doesn't mean that it's going to affect in a significant way america's standing in the world you know the same predictions were made about the south vietnam if we abandoned in south yet phnom. Nobody will rely on us. We won't be a superpower anymore in the last. Twenty years afghanistan's become a. It's a place transformed. What's become a much more modern or south asian country and and particularly kabul which has quadrupled and saw and tall buildings and all of that and so how people in afghanistan particulier cobbler going to be able to adjust. Lura it's going to be really really difficult for to try to help the afghans who were on our side. The second point thing that we can do is to try to protect the hussars this ethnic minority which is in the central highlands that has not yet been taken by the taleban which is at risk of genocide. There are a variety of actions that we ought to consider although that's be difficult part because we have now provided the taliban with the most modern american weapons as i said they're one of the best armed a military's in the in the in the region and the third thing i think we should consider is maintaining a small dramatic presence in afghanistan in essence recognizing the new government. So when you think you're having a crappy day co you think you're having a crappy day just think about this. You're not a guy in the taliban who's got to sit down and learn to fly a blackhawk with nothing but youtube videos. Yeah i mean we gave them some of the best military hardware in the world just left it there for them are you. What are you in an all. Because our intelligence services had no appreciation of the talibans capacity or the speed with which they would move that forward right and and that's the same intelligence services that are telling us that iran doesn't have a chance to get a bomb. We should go ahead and do this. This joint deal with them because it's going to hold them off new this same intelligence services the same intelligence services. You got wrong at the beginning of the war okay. The same intelligence services who got russia gate wrong or got it right. I got it wrong on purpose right. The same intelligence services now are telling us that we that the by go ahead with the jcp because that'll hold off the bomb from iran in iran can't build a bomb. Are you kidding me. Iran probably can build a by iran. Says we can build a bomb with a month. Who do you believe the iranians who say they can build a bomb in a month or our intelligence services that have been wrong. An absolutely everything. I'm i'm thinking the mullah's probably you're telling the truth that they can have a bomb within a month. And i think that's why the israelis are taking them seriously. Even if we're not jake tapper. Jake tapper scour on cnn. Jake tapper leftist. But i respect jake tapper. Do i don't agree with him. But he's not dishonest. Jake tapper not dishonest. Jake tapper also for what it's worth some background. This is important jake. Tapper journalist who has taken a risk seventy two is the number of journalists that were killed afghanistan in the twenty years. Seventy two one of them could have been jake tapper. Because when the war first took off their jake tapper went and embedded with a unit and he was such a valuable asset to the unit when he was there that they gave him an award when he came back and for three years. The officers association invited him to come as a speaker. He wrote a book about his experience with the military. He's not he's not a conservative but he's not dishonest. So it's important. Because i don't i don't like his politics but i respect him at least for being an honest guy here he is Just basically saying that. This is a disaster biden's fault. Hello i'm dick. Tapper in washington with the state of our union is watching a tragic foreign policy disaster unfold before our eyes weeks before the twentieth anniversary of nine eleven and the deadline for president biden's complete withdrawal of us servicemembers. The taliban are laying. Waste to all the games in that country. Having seen much about ghanistan the taliban are now at the gates of the capital city of kabul. The representatives are meeting with leadership inside the afghan presidential palace. You rapid crumbling of the country has caught. Divide biden white house flat-footed on saturday after pulling out almost all of the twenty five hundred servicemembers there when he took office president biden said he would deploy more than more. Us troops five thousand now total or the limited mission of getting americans and others fleeing safely out of kabul warning of a quote swift and strong us responsive taliban interfere and with constant throb of helicopters overhead sources tell c. n. n. this morning that total evacuation of americans from our embassy in kabul is well underway should be completed by tuesday that is of course a sharp turnaround from six weeks ago when president biden. Call the highly unlikely that the taliban would overrun the country and assessment that even at the time struck many experts in biden's own administration as unrealistic. And now as american diplomats rush the shred embassy documents and escape shocking president biden could have been so wrong. Why does this seem shocking. That president biden convince a wrong. He's what has president biden. Been right on. I mean literally. What has he been right on. He's been wrong on everything. Everything is touched turned to poop in his hands. The opposite of the midas touch right. so i don't know there's an opposite character but we ought to invent one. Maybe that's the biden touch right. The biden touch to. How can you take a you know. Roses and make them will hand them to joe biden system anyway. How can you make. Lemonade back into lemons. Handed to joe biden Jake tapper went on to pretty much. Scorch tony blinken. Had tony blinken on the program and took him to task herta's as reality. That's the context were were dealing with You cited the may first deadline negotiated by the trump administration. You did blowback blow through that deadline. We did have proofs there after may first. But i think again the issue here is not just the withdrawal of us forces. It's how they were withdrawn. The repentiti the hastiness president obama's former ambassador to afghanistan ryan crocker. He called the way this was done. Quote a handover to the taliban and quote we have hung out to dry about the afghan people. People crocker continue quote and left with some great questions in my mind about biden's ability to lead our nation as commander in chief to read this so wrong or even worse to have understood what was likely to happen and not care unquote does president by not bear the blame for this disastrous exit from afghanistan. Jake we've seen two things first. We've known all along we've settled along including the president that the taliban was at its greatest position strength At any time since two thousand one when it was last in charge of the country that is the taliban that we inherited and so we saw that they were very much capable of going on the offensive end Getting to take back the country but at the same time we had invested over four administrations billions of dollars along with the international community in the afghan security and defence forces building a modern military With the most sophisticated equipment three hundred thousand forces gone with an air force. The taliban didn't have the fact of the matter is We've seen that. That force has been unable to defend the country and that has happened more quickly. The idea of them. The the fourth not being able to defend so jake tapper went on and and pretty much did hold his feet to the fire. Said you know. Hey you're changing the subject or a couple of times. I would need to play the whole thing. You can find it on your own. But the upshot is that that tony blinken spinning. Now he has to. I wanna share with you. The the numbers here. I meant to do this earlier. And i had a graphic may depend on the screen. But it is. I don't have a now Us servicemembers killed in afghanistan through april. Two thousand four hundred forty eight twenty four hundred forty eight gold star parents who now like so many fifty thousand some gold star parents for vietnam can say my son or daughter died and the objective that we went there to accomplish which was to keep the country from being in taliban control. Keep the country from being communist. In the case of vietnam keep the country moving and taliban control that objective was not accomplished. And my son. My daughter dead. Kids are fatherless widows just not not good afghan national military and police afghan citizens who signed up to defend their own country in part because we said we had their back sixty six thousand died in the twenty years. Afghan civilians just bystanders. You're born in the wrong place. Forty seven thousand two hundred forty five and lastly taliban and other opposition fighters fifty one thousand so fifty one thousand of their fighters twenty four hundred hours but sixty six thousand afghan fighters The the casualty count for more people lost on the afghan in us side combined on the taliban side. Swipe titled the episode today. The taliban wins the us can win our wars. Our military can win our wars. Our military is not week or military's not unable. Our political leadership is unwilling. Give them just like in vietnam just like here. They're unwilling to give them the ability to actually exercise brutality. Necessary to win wars. There's no other way to say that the the reality is that what is war. War is when diplomacy fails. The discussion has failed. So we're one side has decided to take up arms. One side's decided. We're going to stop talking to start fighting. Well whatever side decides that is going to do it with all of their energy and all of the brutality that they can muster because they've decided not to go on a path of discussion and that means if you're going to defeat them you have to come up with an equal level of brutality and that's what we refused to do anymore. Don't do it and we won't do it and until we do do it. We will lose every conflict were involved in period. We won world war two for two simple reasons. We firebombed dresden which killed women and children and everybody indiscriminately and we did the same thing in hiroshima and nagasaki because until the civilian population capitulates. There's nothing and we won't do it. We won't do it because we're fighting our wars for the five o'clock news not for victory. We won't do it because our generals are afraid of being prosecuted. Not by the other side are generals are afraid to be prosecuted by our own leaders so they're timid and they're frightened and they won't move forward next clip. Nbc says that republicans are just seizing on the optics of this that that's the only similarity between this in saigon is the optics it's not the only similarity it's one of many almost direct parallels because we didn't learn in saigon. Here's the nbc report and president biden guaranteed. Last month there would be no airlifts from the embassy in kabul saying it was not at all analogous to the messy exit from vietnam four decades ago this is manifestly not saigon still helicopters continuously evacuated americans and our afghan allies to the airport throughout the day. An optical comparison republicans have seized on as they continue to blast the president's foreign policy strategy. This is going to be a stain on this president and his presidency. And i think he's gonna blood on his hands for what they did. This has been an epic failure across the board. When we're gonna pay for for years to come. Monica joins us now. Monica are there any plans for president biden to address the nation. Not currently at least not tonight peter. The white house wing that day by day with officials acknowledging the american people want to hear from him for now. The president remains at camp david where he has been largely out of view since friday heater. Monteilh at the white house thing. Where's the comforter in chief you know biden said the words of a president matter. Where's the words of a president. Now were are you joe biden. Not that i wouldn't matter but you know if you're going to be quote unquote presidential step up. Grab the microphone. Let's sissy guess he's taken this. He's taken a lot of flack for it to From both sides on twitter because I forget what station was what they put out. That joe biden plans to address the nation in the next few days. So no actual timeline. Nothing set in stone. It's simply joe biden. We'll address you at some point. When he feels he can do it mentally or when he feels he cares enough to do it because at the moment he doesn't care what when they can get the script written form is what it is. Yeah when they when we've got enough more information that we can figure out how to put a positive spin on this and plus we have to figure out how to blame trump. This is still trump's fault. This has got to be trump's fault because it can't be everything in the world that happens that that that's bad is trump's fault so that's that's the next step here. They got to figure that out now. Joe biden did make some predictions about afghanistan. They didn't age well. You're there is a taliban's takeover of afghanistan now inevitable gnome because you have the afghan troops at three hundred thousand well equipped as well as any army in the world and an air force against something like seventy. Five thousand. Polycom is not an imminent mark. Your own intelligence community has a size of the afghan government will likely collapse news. New is it. Can you please clarify what they've told you about whether that will happen or not. True nice numbers or what level of confidence that they have that it will not allow afghan government we. Mr come together clearly. Had the capacity to sustain the government plus parallels between this withdraw and what happened in vietnam the central feeling wrong witching zero which you had as yet entire brigades breaking through the gates of our embassy. Six month mistake. The taliban is not the south of the north vietnamese army. Not not remotely comparable go. There's gonna be no circumstance you see. People being lifted off the roof of a embassy knee of the united states from afghanistan. It is not at all comfortable so the question now is where to go from here that the jury is still out. The likelihood is going to be the taliban over running everything in owning the whole country is eileen likely there will be no circumstance where helicopters are lifting people off the roof of the us embassy. That's right today. They're not because they can't fly them to the kabul airport to get out of kabul otherwise the helicopters would be taking off from the embassy to get the last few embassy staff out that they promised would be out by tuesday. That aren't out now that it's monday and they've suspended flights out of the country. Because joe biden you did not protect the americans who are in the embassy there. joe biden. You failed these. Americans joe biden. If one american dies in afghanistan now you are the one who pulled trigger. You are the one who made the decision to have an insufficient strategy to hold our territory and our people until our assets are out. And i don't care if you wanted to get out and let it fall fine. You had a responsibility to get us out and our equipment out and our people out responsibly. and joe biden. you have failed period. It's your fault the buck stops you and isn't it convenient. That jen sausages happened to take a few extra days off. Well oh joe is over at camp david. What a joke. A whole thing is just a joke. It's a joke administration. It's a joke president. It's a joke. Secretary of state. Every single bit of it is like juvenile kindergarten stuff. A ten year old could have figured this out months ago but it's trump's fault salt trump's fault this is probably trump's fault to we played lori lightfoot the other day i said i gave her the benefit of the doubt. I wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt. And say you know. Maybe laurie life. What's a good person. And she was really turned up there in the hospital and and it really changed her. She couldn't even remember l. A. french's name and neither could the chief of police. This is embarrassing here. It is horrible. Tragedy are elephants murder though the the offender who is charged with first degree murder of ella fitzgerald two gun used in this shooting and this murder up ella fitzgerald was illegally possessed. Ella french say her name l. a. french not ella fitzgerald not ella frank l. a. French say her name or lightfoot beetlejuice your one time passes over back to calling you names because you gotta come in because you're despicable democrat hack. let's see last a couple more things Border border is out of control. We all know this right and he did you guys know that allah hundred my orcas who in public keeps claiming. It's all awesome. It's all just perfect in private. Says something very differently here. It is behind closed doors in this league audio talking border patrol agents. My orcas says the situation is more dire than he is publicly willing to admit so Situations unsustainable he says in. Private son sustainable. We've gotta fix this. We can't do it. Continues to serve as beyond me until they get their leaders from check. I wouldn't be putting my life on the line sound selfish. But they're being used. You know what this is true. Here's the challenge. I have two boys both both in the army. You can't just quit the army like he quit the job contract right and just what they signed up under other presidents lots of people join the military under trump and lots of people expect a trump to get reelected right. They had a different commander in chief. But you're in a contract. You can't quit. You know you gotta keep going and you gotta you gotta do whatever these junk politicians ask you to do. My son over the weekend said Said yeah we. We knew the whole time we were there that if we ever left the taliban would take territory again but to protect those good people because he met a lot of really great people have ghanistan right a lot of the people that live just where they were to protect those people from those guys. I will go back again because anyway. Now we had an. I'm just going to throw this out your son's not definitely not the only one that people a lot of med makes a difference that they were they were literally people from from from a great well. Let's just put it a great evil in this there. The taliban is not something that is going to come in and be happy and peaceful undo. What we think is right. They're going to come in. They're gonna remove human rights. They're gonna make it much harder for anyone to get girls for exactly it's just. It's a brutal griddle. brutal thing. The taliban so coal we've we've got a bellyful all of us of these athletes who are turning their back on the flag a kneeling and so on and we played the one the wrestler Tomorrow guests messing stock is her name a couple of weeks ago and she's awesome and now we have the Sorry draw blank on this woman's name Seven gold medals though which is by member back. Mark smith one seven and one olympics. That was the like a thing But anyway she won seven gold medals and she's talking about how proud she has to represent america who she is. I'm still old fashioned enough to see those gold medals around your your neck as an american and get chills because You know what. It needs to be an american and cheer for another american at an olympic games. I think back to mark spitz in one thousand nine hundred seventy two talk about me being old and seeing those gold medals as well. I'm just curious for you. What's it like being on the world. Stage representing america and being able to bring home those gold medals for your country to i had the opportunity to watch some of my teammates win gold medals silver medals win bronze medals and whenever i had the opportunity to sit in the stands and cheer them on. I i would get those goosebumps myself so it really. I don't even my gold medal from london and twelve has fully sink sunk in yet for me. I pinch myself every day. When i'm when i was in school at sanford bike around the campus. Just being being there and being a student there was incredible. I pinch myself when. I'm diving into the pool every day in practice that gets next to these teammates that i'm with and it's just such an honor to represent team usa on on the highest stage and hear your national anthem to be on that podium. You just think of all the people that went into getting getting into to that point. It's it's really just a symbol. The metal at it is the result of a lot of hard work from not just myself but from so many people and so He saw him katie. Decky by hitler. Duck nice job for her and this is the way it should be right. Proud represent the country and and you should get chills when you hear the national anthem. Whatever country you're from right. I mean this remain. Maybe not if you're from afghanistan from an athlete perspective who has been on the field. My blue and stuff. The national anthem for game is honestly warranty. Like most chilling surreal. Just kind of more. It's almost like a hypo hypoc song before the game. Like for a baseball player. Like when you're on that sideline starts plan your you're in media all right you go because you feel that sense of were in america. This is great this america's game especially for baseball and it. Just you get that sense that you can do anything really. It's it's just a sense of pride at least for me. It's not true that the last two words of the national anthem our play ball. It is new but it seems like you're right because it's like as soon as the national anthem ns. That's the next two words right where to go and the cool thing is. They showed the medal count there at the end we won the olympic games. We want we won the gold and we won the total so suck at everyone else. The nice now. You know what i was looking at one of our demographic maps of the and we have a tunnel listeners in florida florida's really one of the places. We're a lot of listeners. And i i love her of that. Big fan i but so i mean that's changed. We didn't use to be one of your state announced one of the bigger states for listeners. And so i just want to I want to let you all know those you in florida. Those you're in the southeast. You know i know you already know that this Tropical depression. Fred looks like it might become a hurricane at strengthening yen. And so a lot of good friends in the panhandle and that destiny area. I know that area halfway well on my best friends lives there. Panama city and so Praying for florida and keeping floor on our mind and keep an eye on matt One other thing that we've been talking about hong kong a little bit ongoing and the dissident groups there in the way things are changing their The largest protest group in hong kong has disbanded They said on sunday that it's unable operate in the face of government pressure. I was called the civil rights front organizer. A lot of the big rallies are back in two thousand nineteen They said on their facebook. Page sunday that Had a divan disband after The main person who had organized it was put in prison. That's just coming to a neighborhood near you. This just in is a forty three minutes ago. President joe biden will return to the white house. This afternoon we'll give a speech on afghanistan. Okay so he's going to get up and you'll get up and give one under mounting pressure from trump probably Probably wilsey if he doesn't run trump anyway amazing. Probably high your iphone to give you an iphone. Don't you call. Yes so we're talking about this before the show. They have new software coming on the iphone. The iphone will now detect kiddie porn. If i if somebody sends her or even porn all he sent. Somebody sends an explicit message. A photo naked photo to a kid. It'll flag a apple to look at that message if somebody uploads what their algorithm determines is child porn to a phone That will flag apple to have a human look at it. And then they'll hurt we report that to authorities. So if you thought you had privacy on your iphone It's all gone now. And they're being overt about it. They're going to be scouring your iphone for what they consider to be crimes and I'm just waiting till the day. That conservatism is considered a crime. Mike of said over the weekend that they're going to be coming for your children taking them away from you because you've got a household to religious. They'll say it's anti-science and dangerous something like that that's coming to a place near you anyway. We'll be back tomorrow morning. Eight o'clock lord willing shows produced by coma calman this a republic hebrew broadcast. My name. is brian kelly. You have time visit the site and this show thanks again. Thank you for listening to the republic. Podcast share follow. Gentlemen we ask you to. Please support the new republic hebrew dot com slash support. We will see you tomorrow.

taliban afghanistan Jake tapper kabul kate brown seattle president biden biden nancy pelosi america joe biden andrew cuomo poland tony blinken west point europe sydney kabul airport israel
Pelosi Directs Impeachment Articles; Eddie Redmayne In 'The Aeronauts'

Here & Now

42:17 min | 1 year ago

Pelosi Directs Impeachment Articles; Eddie Redmayne In 'The Aeronauts'

"From NPR and WBZ YOU are. I'm Jeremy Hobson. I'm Peter o'dowd it's here now this morning house speaker. Nancy Pelosi announced a historic new chapter in the impeachment inquiry are- against President trump sadly but with confidence in humility was allegiance to our founders and her heart full of love for America today. I'm asking our chairman to proceed with articles of impeachment. This marks the next step in a deeply partisan battle to remove the president from office. Democrats say he abused his power in his dealings with Ukraine but the president said today that Republicans have never been more united needed NPR political reporter. Tim Mack joins us now in. Tim help us understand the history. The Nancy Pelosi made this morning right well. I think that she realized that it was a momentous comment on occasion and in some ways. We've been on a trajectory to this moment for some months I mean if you've been following the speakers Statement Linson her press conferences over the last year. She did come at this reluctantly she did. She was not initially interested in going down the path of an impeachment inquiry and now the drafting of articles of impeachment But the facts change as she has said repeatedly the facts the times have found us and now she has taken in this new step. which is the formal announcement of the drafting of these articles and Tim? What about the tone of the day we just heard Nancy Pelosi referenced? The founding fathers there's She talked about their fear of foreign influence. An election interference interference. Her mood was somber but then later in the morning she was visibly the angry. She said don't mess with me when a reporter asked if she hated the president You just got to wonder if this next step in impeachment is going to change. The tone tenor tenor in Washington. We're still very early in this impeachment process relatively speaking that the articles of impeachment have not been drafted. They need to be considered considered in committee than the full House would presumably need to vote on these articles in order for it to move forward and go to get sent to the Senate and then there will be a trial. We don't know how Lincoln that will be. There are a lot of very tense times ahead and House Speaker. Nancy Pelosi took hook offense when a reporter asked her if she hated the president. She said that she She's a Catholic and as a Catholic. She doesn't hate anyone And and so that is a that is an interesting sign of how heated this debate and this topic is going to be in coming months. Well there still is a lot that we do not know as you mentioned. One for instance is whether the articles will be narrowly focused on the issue of Ukraine or potentially include other high crimes. And misdemeanors is perhaps drawing in something from Robert Muller's investigation. How have Democrats been debating that behind closed doors? Well there's a split. Among Democratic lawmakers should the impeachment the articles be broader in scope. Like you said mention part of the Russia investigation and the findings of Mall report which suggested there were possible instances instances of obstruction of justice. Or should it just be. A narrowly focused narrowly tailored to just include the Ukraine issue and this alleged scheme. I'm that the president had to leverage. US Foreign Policy For personal and political gain. Now this is something that has yet been settled but it will have to be settled as they draft these articles in coming weeks. Let's hear from Republicans and their reaction to Nancy. Pelosi's announcement this morning. Here's House Minority leader. Kevin Kevin McCarthy. This is the day. The Nation is weaker because they surely cannot put their animosity or their fear of losing an election in the future. Sure in front of all the other things that the American people want McCarthy referring there to Democrats also accused the party of moving too fast without any proof of wrongdoing a tim are Republicans as unified as president. Trump said. They were on twitter today. Well right now. We're not seeing any house. Republicans at least indicate that they would support articles of impeachment. There was some hope As as Democrats approach this process Democrats thought that they could probably or possibly get a few moderate Republicans to join them for this For at least you know. Proving the rules of the impeachment inquiry that turned out not to be the case there hasn't been any indication amongst moderate Republicans that they are willing to join and approve articles of impeachment against the president based on the facts right now and just quickly after. These articles are drawn up. What's the time line because I see the Senate has basically cleared? Its calendar January. That's right they it's Very uncertain actually senators received a calendar of the year all twelve months with the exception of January which was totally blank senator in a in an elevator just staring at that month on this page of twelve January is not even listed as a blank spot where that is. It's GonNa be a very uncertain process as we go towards a trial. We don't know how long it is. It's GonNa take some time for those issues to be resolved in the first step. Is the house. Judiciary Committee will be meeting meeting on Monday to hear from lawyers from the relevant committees about the facts of the investigation. NPR's to Mac. Thanks so much thanks a lot. Republican Congressman Devin Nunes has of California the ranking member on the house. Intelligence Committee has been defending himself this week. After call records show he had contacts with left. Parnis Parnasse is the ukraine-born rain born businessman arrested October on campaign finance violations. He also allegedly worked with RUDY GIULIANI TO DIG UP DIRT. On Joe Biden a scheme parnes. His lawyer says Nunez helped with two. Here's what Nunez had to say to Fox News Sean. Hannity on Tuesday to this guy less partners or whatever his name is it's possible but I haven't gone through all my phone records. I don't really recall that name. I remember they name now because he's been indicted elise lease V.. Back has been looking at noon as possible involvement. She's with The Washington Post investigative political reporter there. At least welcome. Thank you very much for having me. Let's start with these phone logs. Tell us what they tell us. Exactly about Nunez's contact with Parnassus. Well it we're looking at an episode in the month breath of April We see at least three contacts in a single day between newness and Parnis and this was a couple of days after a Nunez traded. Some communications with Rudy Giuliani. And I think the month of April is important because that's the same month that Maria Vich. The former ambassador to Ukraine crane was recalled. It's a key period during this Ukraine saga. And so I think we're all wondering exactly what the content of those phone calls slots. CNN is also reported that Arneses lawyer. Joseph Bondi said that noon is met with the X.. Ukrainian Prosecutor General Viktor Shokhin in Vienna Anna last year Nunez has sued. CNN over that story. But what do we know about that alleged meeting so we have not confirmed that we heard the same thing from parnassus lawyer but as you said Nunez himself has a thoroughly denied it. He says that instead of being in Vienna meeting was Shokhin he was actually in Benghazi Libya and also in Malta. So congressional travel records do show that he was in Europe around that time what. We are unsure sure of his weather. That was the multi trip that newness has pointed to or whether he was indeed in Vienna. What are the implications if he was communicating with us which I think it raises some really interesting questions about conflicts of interest for Mr Newness who we should note has been a longtime ally and booster the president? He was part of his transition team following the two thousand sixteen election. So I think for Mr Newness. This is very tricky territory And therapist different several Democrats who have Given rise to the possibility of perhaps an ethics investigation the most senior Democrat in the house have mentioned something along these lines would have been steny Hoyer heuer. The House majority leader. Who said this week that he wants some of these questions answered and it's possible that the House committees will play a role in that and if the reports about about Nunez's communication with partners or true? What would that tell you about the reach of the administration's efforts in Ukraine the trump administration will it just shows if it's true how coordinated coordinated and sort of thoroughgoing this effort was but we should clarify we at the Washington Post reported that this is true and that it happened but we do know? Oh that from these call records released by the report by the House Intelligence Committee this week that there were so many contacts between a Giuliani. Perhaps trump trump parnassus John Solomon the former columnist for the hill so And these came at at very crucial moments in the Ukraine saga. So I think that that if it's true that newness was involved which he's he's left. Open the possibility that he spoke with love partners. He as you aired on that clip. So I think that if he was involved there are some pretty serious questions facing him about conflicts of interest and left parties. Lawyer has said that Nunez should have recused himself from the impeachment inquiry. What do you think Parnassus motivations here are in talking about the potential involvement of Devin Nunes? Well Parnasse has really been mounting public campaign to be allowed to testify as part of the impeachment inquiry His lawyer one of his lawyers said that with appropriate protections parnasse would fill in the blanks. Thanks in terms of what he talked about with Devon newness so we're a little unclear on whether partner will be allowed to testify. It's possible that he will not be because. Of course he is being prosecuted federally Under campaign finance charges in the hill tends to yield to the Justice Department in cases like this but I think that if he were to testify. Hi It's possible we would find out some very interesting information from him and could newness face some kind of repercussion or punishment if it turns out he was involved in was communicating with Parnis. It's it's possible and and I think those Democratic lawmakers have hinted at those consequences we should also note that He has been investigated before. The ethics committee cleared him in December of two thousand seventeen after he was accused of giving classified information to the White House. So we have sort of seen this story play out before but in that case it's important to note that he was cleared that is at least feedback Washington Post investigative political reporter. Thank you so much. Thank you The new film. The aeronautics tells a little known chapter in the history of flight the quest to go higher than anyone in history in a balloon Oscar winning actor actor Eddie Read Main Stars as scientist James Glacier who attempted to set the altitude record back in eighteen sixty two red main won the Oscar in two thousand fifteen for playing Stephen Hawking the theory of everything Felicity Jones Co starred in that film. She Co Stars in this film as well playing balloon pilot. Amelia Ren in this scene the to prepare for takeoff. Aikoff you ready yes. I just need to retake brown readings do one final check with the equipment equipment. I don't touch this. How the Aaron's opens in theaters tomorrow and joining me? Now is Eddie. Read main welcome to here and now hi how are you doing well. Thank you so much for joining us and we should say. By the way that Felicity Jones character was not a real person. She's based on several all female. But your character. James Glacier was a real person tell us about him. Well that's true so the film is There's a wonderful book who falling outputs which is a kind of history of ballooning and I'll film is of inspired by some of the best bits of the greatest hits of some of those moments James Glacier was a nineteenth century early meteorologist at the time on the idea of predicting the weather who's deemed absurd and he ended up. I mean the real figure had Clergyman doctors up and down the country taking measurements on what the weather was doing around Britain and he was the first person to late late those piece of information and try to find patterns in it but he went helping in a balloon and was desperate to try and everyone at at the time science was being used an adventure being used people climbing Everest going polls and people going up in balloons in in competitions To sort of see who go the highest but no one was necessarily using it to find out information about the unknown and so he was A. That's what he was attempting to. Nobody believes that you could could even ever figure out how to predict the weather exactly. It was seemed dim crazy and and he was sort of look down on and meteorology was seen as sort out of Hocus pocus and for me. One of the things I found. Riveting is it was a moment in history. I knew nothing about. It actually never occurred to me. There was a time when people of course didn't of any idea what was coming so that was one of the elements. I found intriguing. Well the other thing about it is that you know we think about the history of flight and we think about airplanes and we think about the Wright brothers or whoever but I guess I never really spent a lot of time thinking about the fact that before there were airplanes we had to figure out how to get balloons up in the air and that that was a whole part of history. All on its own you know there was was a book for me by Julian Bonds. One of my favorite authors cooled the levels of life and the first chapter of that basically talked about Ali balloon flight and what it must have been like to be the first people to see the world from the sky. And it's a beautiful meditation that book I read this. Maybe eight eight years ago and found it very impactful and so when this script derived it how to let wonder how will the the idea of looking up and the pioneering nearing sense of the unknown. I found kind of intriguing mixed with the kind of old fashioned adventure so it was that sort of combination. But one of the things that was interesting from a filmmaking. Filmmaking point of view is when now of course numb to sing the Welsh from the sky because people go aeroplanes it was. How do you make an audience? Look at that new a freshen Russian and and and going up in Abilene is a very specific thing particularly gas balloons. which is what these guys flew in? Because it's so silent all right you're completely. Ah The whim of the elements. Almost all of this film takes place in a bull in. What was it like to film? How high up did you go? Or how often were you actually in a balloon versus in something that made it look like you were in a balloon. Well so the important differentiation is is these were gas balloons so they don't really exist in the UK anymore That is to say a helium or hydrogen balloon taped in by a net basically an attached to a basket and the way you go up is by letting go and the way you come down by putting a rope that lets the gas gas out and the other thing you can use as you can throw off ballast to to make you go higher So really they built a balloon for film they recreated created the. Mammoth the famous balloon from this flight but in our country there aren't many people who fly gas balloons anymore. So they built one and we went up on our first few days of filming felicity and I were in costume and they shot us from helicopters and drones and Jones is his. WHO's in the film with me? As does astonishing things in the in this movie is risk is concerned and and she was sitting up in the hoop the balloon despite the fact that we have thousands of feet in the air but it was incredibly peaceful and I am very beautiful while these these drones and helicopters fishing and when they left they disappeared off. Once they got the footage they needed them. We I just had to land. But of course the technology hasn't changed for one hundred fifty years and so our landing was catastrophic. Can we very very nitty killed herself. and so It was a scary few days of filming in the balloons But with one really quite intense crash and from then on we moved into studios. Radio's where this basket was suspended around blue curtains and although interestingly they they refrigerated the studios so that you could feel the cold ooh breath thirty thousand. Let's listen to scene from the movie actually. Which of course shows how dangerous ballooning can be You're flying into a storm here this. I doubt whether closing the do you want to be. One of my readings suggested a store. That's what it is inside the Kenyan it just precisely so orange say by the way that this is not the first time that you've been in a film with Felicity Jones who plays your wife in the theory of everything exactly. Yeah so one of the great appeals me with this film when I was sent. The script was the idea of getting to to to play opposite. Felicity again who. I just the dual as an actor and as a friend and that weird thing that actors have that often were close to people when you're working and then and you push each other and get to learn each other's process yes and then you go off and start a new thing and actually to come back and work with someone picking up where you left off with an intriguing idea and we loved it. We will also stuck in a tiny basket for months on end it was important. We got something else that I noticed about the two films. which is that in the theory of everything you were playing Stephen Hawking someone with LS for for much of the movie you had to act without talking and in this film? You're up so high in the sky that you're so cold you're frozen and you also so have to do the same thing. There's exactly the carrot gets HYPOC. Share at the moment in which Felicia's character has to kind of save their lives. But it's interesting one of the things I love about what I do. Is You get gun research it and you'll give him the freedom to go and play around it so so the Hypoxia Element of the film. We actually went the director and I to this place where they put pilots who are training into these tanks and change the air pressure to recreate what it's it's like thirty five hundred feet and what's interesting is that you feel rather than feeling dreamy. You actually get incredibly confident that they make you do. Are these tests one plus one and you're sitting there and they make you do it every three seconds and one plus one you obviously want one is forced Japan gets more and more drunk. Concomitant uh-huh lately so that was interesting and bringing those sort of things that you learn and try to find ways into the into the peace with it so but no you're right. Were that were definitely similarities. I mean that was a moment when I've I've spent a lot of the past six years. Tweed or in period drama costumes sort of looking and to do an American contemporary piece. And and then this came along play an English period drama playing a scientist and yet it with something in it. That was wasn't necessarily what I've been to keep woman. It was something that I think pleasingly unique so wanted to pursue one thing. That is different about this film for you is that you are now an academy award. Winning best actor has that. How has that changed your life in your career? Yeah it's an interesting question. I think the reality is that it gives you. It gives you more choice. And that's something you know for many years when you're starting out as an actor you you will dishing for things and you've given you're lucky enough to be employed and and then in something like theory of everything happens and suddenly your your you'll send things and given more of a sense of choice but it's interesting because when you're starting out as a kid you get sent a script and it's like Cate Blanchett is attached to this this director and this and that that comes with a sense of expectation. Will you go those brilliant actors and that's a wonderful thing thing where suddenly you'll being given the script before as a director attached early on in the process and so suddenly it's your Thoughts and ideas and an and taste rav that of someone else and we should also say that there are probably some listeners. Who are hearing? Talk to you right now in thinking. I don't care about this new movie. I want to know what it's like to be. Newt scamander fantastic beasts. This is the latest Harry Potter Franchise. Do you get stopped in the street by especially young people who want you to perform spells or Do a particularly the. There's a particular age when magic is still completely real In which I always feel like I let people down by not being out of sort of whip out a Netflix from my pocket. Or is it a victory magical creature of some description and and it's an amazing thing. It's a really wonderful awful thing. Because you make films in in these vacuums and whereas with you see an audience every night you can feel whether they're coming on the ride with your enjoying it and what's whatever the film's as you make them at this particular moment in time and you and then they come out years later. And even though you sort of know they're in cinemas or they're streaming you. You don't necessarily know that people it feels all the people actually going on watching it so when people come in react With excitement enjoy particularly something. That's aimed at ah with kids in mind. It's really special. We'll have to say that I have wanted to go on a hot air balloon my entire life and I want to even more now after watching this film although I would stop op at maybe fifteen thousand feet and then just come. I figured that would be a wise idea for them. That is Eddie. Read Main Academy Award winning actor who stars in the new film. The aeronautics. What's Eddie read may thank you so much for joining us? Thanks Fatty and that film opens tomorrow. I traveled young thanking. Can you for listening to the here. And now podcast and inviting you to contribute to support it at donate dot. NPR DOT org slash. Now for all the reasons that you listen Sinn here now helps you make sense of the world and when you donate to your MPR station your supporting the journalism that brings context and perspective to the news and in conversations with people making a difference in the arts music and culture. So please make a donation to your. NPR Station today and that investment will come right back. Get your ears just go to donate dot MPR dot org slash now we're building NPR. And its member stations. Thanks to you. Now let's get back to the news news. The San Francisco Forty niners have suspended commentator Tim Ryan for comments. He made about Baltimore. Ravens quarterback Lamar Jackson after after the Ravens. beat the forty niners last Sunday. Here's Ryan on. KNB Our radio talking about why Jackson is so good at hiding the ball. When running fake handoffs other players is dark skin geller with a dark football with a dark uniform thing? Lamar Jackson is black. Ryan who is white and also also played in the NFL has apologized. He says he regrets his choice of words. Mike PESCA is here. Now's sports analysts. He hosts the daily podcast the gist. It's late Dot Com and Mike. We've spoken with you about Lamar Jackson this season. Because he's very good. He's a potential. Mvp what are your thoughts on on this latest story. It's the very definition of ignorance but tinged with something more and. I don't know that it was the intent of Tim Ryan but you have to. Well let's first of all just flat out say it's not true the the coloration of of a brown football against the Ravens Dark Jersey and whatever Lamar Jackson skin color is said to be it is not why he's so good at a fake handoffs. He's so good at fake hand off because a that's a skill set unto itself and be. He's this ultimate threat weapon where he can run the ball and throw the ball all and since a defender has to honor all those things you can't always assume he's going to do one instead of the other so that just the fact but the other thing I would say the tinge is you know the position of the black quarterback is the most fraught in the NFL. And even Lamar Jackson showing that he was this amazing player in college. kind of anyone with eyes would say. Oh my God let's get this guy in the NFL and see what he can do. You know he was told to play wide receiver. He was a top scouts. Were saying Oh. I don't think it could be a quarterback and you'd have to think that this is only because he was black and people who were who are scouts and you know people who are very expert in these in this field her also more. Cognizant of the racial history will flat out. Tell you that so you add it all together and this. The suspension suspension seems warranted. I'm not gonNA say anything about what Tim Ryan intended. Or what's in his heart but it's really an ignorant and damaging thing to say well either way regardless he will not be in the broadcast booth against the saints this weekend. So let's talk about something else did basketball. Did you see Lebron. James Travel Travel last night in Utah. But you know who did it. Listen let me talk about this real quick. The video is just unreal. Lebron James is casually dribbling. The ball down the court and then he just stops dribbling and takes three and a half steps up the court and you don't have to know much about basketball to know that that is a traveling violation. The REF did did not call it. And here's Lebron James after the game. Yeah it was the worst thing. I probably WANNA work my career. I didn't even realize I didn't have time to be honest. One of my coaches show me. I ain't even realize realize I did it. I think at the same time one of the worst things Mike I ever did in my career. Yeah and this guy took his talents to south beach. I don't know I can't actually tell. If he was kidding he was essentially saying all right guys. You know I literally walked on non-competitive play non-competitive part of the play away or if he was saying Oh my God that really was egregious. And I'll call myself out on wor listeners. Should know is that he just casually walking the ball up the court. He wasn't really being being guarded at this point and there was no reason he started to walk except perhaps he had the mental lapse. Yeah and then. The referees did and the embarrassing thing is there is always been the accusation and stats bear this out GonNa quick great great pros get the call. And maybe this was Lebron benefiting from the wrath swallowing Mike Tusk sake so much defense secretary Mark Esperer says the. US has finished pulling troops out of northeastern Syria about six hundred US troops to remain in the rest of the country as says. Those troops are focused on counterterrorism operations against what's left of the Islamic state. Meanwhile Russia has moved in to fill the vacuum that the US created when it left the area NPR reports. Russian flags are flying in Syrian. Kurdish towns the Syrian Kurds are longtime US allies but they have turned to Russia for military support since president. Trump's withdrawal order in October joining us now is Peter Galbraith former. US Ambassador Longtime Specialists Silas on the Kurds and just back from Syria. Welcome good to be with you when I what do you make of the news. being reported by NPR that Russian flags are flying in the Kurdish territory of Syria. Well it's not surprising because the Russians have come in along along the border They have military police. They're they're protected by the Syrian Kurdish military forces But overall the the scene in northeast serious perhaps a bit reminiscent of the bar scene from Star Wars Russian troops. There are Turkish troops there regime forces and of course there the Kurdish forces. You just returned from the region yourself. What were you doing there and what what would you say? Things are like on the ground at this point well I've been part of a process talking talking to the Syrian Kurds about negotiation so with Damascus. As well as mediating between the Syrian Kurds and the Iraqi Kurds but also I was Involved in an effort to extract some children from the Isis camps Got Out a young American three year old so some success S.. We'll tell me more about that. Well so they're about ten thousand Foreign Women and children about seven thousand of them are children in three camps. All of the women chose to go to Syria and most of them remain radical but if the the children remain in the camps I it's a terrible place for children but also They're gonNA grow up and be radicalized. They'll be the next generation of jihadis. So the idea is simply to try to get as many of them out as possible. In this case it was a An American orphan and a German women woman and her children a woman who had long since renounced The Islamic state and all of them are back in Germany. The American is back in the United States. You also met with the leader of the Syrian Kurds. Right Muslim Kabbani I did and how does he feel about The US pull out in the future of the Kurds in Syria. Yeah well snow surprised that. He's deeply disappointed The United States had been the ally of the Syrian Kurds. It it had Provided the Air Force in the successful battle against the Islamic state had provided weapons and a trump administration officials had repeatedly told them that the US would stay until Iran was out of Syria and since he ran has no intention shen of leaving Syria. that the expectation was that the United States would be there for the long run but of course the the trouble these days with for with for foreigners foreigners who have to deal with American diplomats is that they often don't speak for the president of the United States who impulsively does other things. So you know there was great Disappointment an effort to figure out. What do we do now if they had known? This was coming They would have been in a much stronger position. Shirow to negotiate a deal with Damascus. But you know that seems to be the only plausible course. They have the Syrian. Kurds never fought against the Syrian government. Meant really. There were two separate wars in Syria. One of the Kurds against the Islamic state and then that was on the East and north of the Euphrates. Descend on the West and south. It was the government against a variety of opposition groups So there wasn't a direct conflict so some deal is possible bowl but you know the question is how much autonomy could the Kurds have. What would be the role of their security forces and you know this clearly undermined their negotiating position? The war in Syria over the last many years now has led to hundreds of thousands of deaths millions of people displaced is the situation nation for civilians at this point as desperate as ever or has. It gotten better. Do you think I think in some places. It's gotten better where the war is over offer. There is an improvement. People are not being killed. It is not a happy outcome for millions of Syrians who had hoped for the overthrow of the Assad government but even among Syrian rebels He having seen how things developed many of them regret that the whole revolution and started that because of the enormous destruction and the enormous loss of life where things have gotten worse unfortunately as for our own allies the Syrian Kurds who had created a stable area a place with a very interesting social experiment for example in all all government positions Strict gender equality between men and women so that their various legislative bodies are fifty fifty. They're co prime ministers for each of their cantons. CO-LEADERS A male and female CO leaders for the entire area and there That experiment is endanger. Couple of hundred thousand people have been displaced is from their home. Hundreds have been killed but really the continuing problem is what is Turkey do next. What is the United States going to do next at the moment? Turkish forces are in What one hundred kilometer area between Taliban and Roselyne but the main population centers are to the East and west of that on Monday where you're NPR? Reporter was commissioner the largest city. Will Turkey move into those areas. And if so the the human toll will be many multiples of what it is now or if it moves west to Kobani again you'll have much greater suffering and is Turkey taking responsibility for the thousands of Isis. His prisoners who had been Held by the Kurds in that part of Syria no The prisoners are are still under the control of the Syrian Kurds. Words and there are many of them. Particularly the the fighters are outside of the Thirty two climate zone. That Turkey is saying it wants to intervene. But the other issue is that Turkey is the country that permitted the foreign fighters to enter Syria. There are about forty thousand foreign fighters according to some estimates who had joined the Islamic state every single one of them got to Syria. Uh through Turkey and it's impossible to believe that Turkey didn't know what was going on and we we've seen the quality of the Turkish intelligence service in the Kashogi showkey affair where you know they. They were able to tell the world you know minute by minute about what happened to Jamaica. Show the Saudi journalist whose dismembered the Saudi consulate nist symbol. You can't quite believe they didn't know those forty thousand people were going to Syria to join the Islamic state. So it's hard to believe that that Turkey is serious about trying to contain or detain the very fighters that it permitted to enter Syria. I finally want to ask you Peter Galbraith. Do you think that the Kurds who have been. US allies so many times will ever trust the US again. That it's certainly difficult i. It's hard to imagine a people who have been WHO WHO's Trust has been more abused than the Kurds in the nineteen seventies Kissinger. Sure encourage the Iraqi Kurds to stage. An uprising against Saddam acquiesced in its betrayal in ninety one the first President Bush called for for an uprising. The Kurds rose up and then Bush sat on his hands as Iraq attacked and in two thousand seventeen The trump administration ration- permitted a Shia militia. Headed up by a guy named Abu Madi Hondas who had been convicted of blowing up the US embassy in Kuwait To use American Abrams. Abrams tanks against the Kurds and they city of Kirkuk and now in Syria you have the What the Kurds see and I think? Correctly as a betrayal and yet they they they continue to to deal with the United States Perhaps because they you know they don't have many other choices but certainly the level of trust is is much diminished at and finally. What's happened to the Kurds is a sign of of what happens to people who don't have have their own country in the world today? Having having your own state is a huge form of protection and of course. The Kurds are the most numerous people on the planet who don't have their own country. That is Peter Galbraith former. US Ambassador Ambassador longtime specialist on the Kurds just back from a trip to Syria. Thank you so much for joining us. Well very good talking to you and the UN's climate summit of world leaders continues today in Madrid. Spain protesters from around the world are also also rolling into town ahead of a strike. Tomorrow led by Swedish teen activist. Greta Timberg earlier this morning. Those protesters said they were concerned about carbon markets. This guy is not for. Sale policymakers at the summit are working on plans for global global carbon market under the Paris agreement. After they failed to reach a solution last year the idea is to find a way for polluting countries to buy credits from other countries that that have lowered their emissions but activists say carbon markets lack transparency and accountability and a better solution they say would be for countries to cut emissions at the source. The climate summit continues through next week and we will keep an eye on that but first let's take a look at a new trend here in the US restaurants without out diners. They're also known as ghost kitchens and they're the new delivery only operations that catered a smartphone APPs like door Dash Uber eats. NPR's is tech correspondent Shannon. Bond tells us how these mysterious restaurants are feeding the appetite for eating at home in a bright red building in Redwood City. South of San Francisco Cooks are plunging. Baskets a French fries into hot oil and wrapping lawful in pita bread. What's missing waiters waiters and customers every dishes placed in a to go box or bag who picks up the food delivery drivers they sit in a waiting room ready for the name on their order order to be called the coastal each bag of food sports? A red sticker with the logo. Go of Door Dash America's biggest restaurant delivery APP door dash manages everything here. The food is made by five restaurants that read the kitchens flawed. Hanan overseas the kitchen venture for Nash rather than having to build a physical brick and mortar store. We do that on their behalf. And then they move into our door kitchen and then overnight there live on the door dash platform of course. Many restaurants have always offered takeout and delivery but now thanks to absolute Jordache GRUB and post. Tate's there's such huge demand for eating at home the kitchen's like this are sprouting up all over dedicated to delivery customers just after living room watching Netflix men park is an investor in rooster and rice. It's a chicken chain with six locations in the bay area and door tenant people in the US spent almost twenty twenty seven billion dollars last year on food. Delivery orders placed by APP website or text message according to the NPD Group A market researcher. Well that's a small slice of the eight hundred billion dollar restaurant industry. Online delivery is growing fast and money is pouring into delivery only kitchens. They go by the variety of names. Commissary Kitchens Ghost. Kitchens virtual kitchens. Dark Kitchens Uber Cofounder Travis. Kalmyk has reportedly raised hundreds of millions of dollars ars from Saudi Arabia for his new business cloud kitchens men park says this Jordache kitchen. Let's rooster rice test new neighborhoods without committing a lot of money due to a new restaurant hiring waiters and other staff in San Francisco. It could easily costs about seven hundred and fifty million dollars For like a medium I space and you know the commissary kitchen model gets us to a a similar revenue. Demand Level A fraction of the cost so these delivery apps are transforming some established restaurants there even creating separate many as just for smartphone. APPs Uber Eats is one of the fastest growing during parts of Uber. And it knows exactly what food it's customers are searching for and knows when those searches don't turn up results so uber tells restaurants to use their existing kitchens funds to offer a whole new menu under a different name and only available through the APP. There are more than four thousand of these virtual restaurants on ubereats Jon now Selena head of ubereats in North America explains how it works. You know a bakery that actually now also runs A burger restaurants only You know only on the platform through that thing kitchen Because neighborhood and having a Burger restaurant Dora's suggests where restaurants should expand delivery and menu anyway Dems based on the millions of orders it receives. All of these suggestions helped the restaurants get a sales boost the APP companies say and some restaurants like restore and rice say those additional national sales make up for the costs associated with delivery but the restaurant industry has never been easy and the APPS. Take a big cut from those delivery. Orders Ken Ray knows that's how that works. He opened alicarte delivery in Miami in twenty seventeen. He saw a ghost kitchen and began creating menus for the APPS started off originally with which just a couple of brands I had one friend that was called which chicken pizza concept that was called Matsushita that I created a fresco Mexicano then over a ten month period yes essentially developed team restaurant brands but without name recognition it was hard to find customers and the thirty percent commission. Most APPs charged made it impossible impossible for his business to cover its expenses for restaurants. It's tough to give away that thirty percent so these guys you know the group the hoover is suppose needs to grow up you know. They've essentially built an amazing business. Built it on the back of the restaurant tour. Ray Close alicarte delivery in July. He's still believes that people have a big appetite for delivery but it needs to be palatable for restaurants to Shannon Bond. NPR News San Francisco. I have an appetite right now. Here now is a production of NPR and WBU our association with the BBC World Service. I'm Peter Doubt. I'm Jeremy Hobson. This is here now

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A Conversation With Abdullah Abdullah

The World Next Week

1:01:11 hr | 1 year ago

A Conversation With Abdullah Abdullah

"Thank you very much ingredients to you all it's a great pleasure to preside over the session virtually and a privilege to have Dr Dole Dole with us at such a potentially pivotal moment. For Afghanistan and for the US led coalition that has supported Afghanistan since late two, thousand one. Doctor Ghulam double is knows well too many of US a Kabul University trained up the Mall Gist who originally practiced in western Pakistan during the Soviet occupation before joining Knock Mitch, GonNa sued and the pen shear resistance. When the Taliban captured Kabul and Nineteen, ninety six, he served with the northern. Alliance again, under off my Chamois sued and falling liberation of Afghanistan from the Taliban in late two, thousand, one doctor Abdullah search for four years as minister of foreign. Affairs he ran for president. Two, thousand nine of course, and then led the opposition in parliament. Following the two thousand, fourteen election, he served as Chief Executive in the government of national unity and in May of this year following another contested election, he was selected to lead the High Council for National Reconciliation with authority to handle all affairs related to the Afghan peace process negotiations over which have, of course, begun recently in Doha Qatar. Welcome Dr Abdulah. Great to see you again. Thank you Jess good to see you in. Thank you follow presiding over this. Virtual get together. Good to see you. Thank you and it's great to do it from this undisclosed lakeside location in Virginia. Dr Perhaps, we could begin with you giving us a quick. On the state of talks with the toddler in Bonn in Doha. please. And thank you. I should say that after forty two years of war. The start of talks in Doha is considered a historic. It started well. It continues now as we are speaking the contact group's of the. Meeting one another and it'll be a good with that of the two teams the whole team in to. Lee started from from knowing one another like two teams and then a getting along in today's issues and so on and so forth. That must have considering the background I should say that it is healthy in the we sense that. Is that is a willing in the other side, which is the Alabama. Movement. To take. Advantage of that situation in and in view but. Along way ahead of us, nobody can can ignore all the complexities involved. We jam both sides come from. Two different. was views of us about the life. About two right-of-centre out the division of of of. own country and. It all of that. into at the same time. We have to do that with all those differences. To find a way to to live in peace with financial data and maintain our differences of views in let the people decide about it in the future but at the same time, pretending put an end to the city of the people which have continued for so long into. Personally, I have been involved in distance the past the four dictates. One Will Annetta? into. Did is no more urgency. A peaceful settlement than would see far that people have honest. And that's important. And at the same time, the United States also is looking at it with a sense of urgency at this stage, which is. which is a good convergence of. Views. Meanwhile. In the nineteen years. You have. Supported as the international community has supported us the United States you're their. Own Service yet an offside men and women soldiers those who paid the ultimate price. This has created a bond of transferring ship between attempt is based on the common threat that faced because it was it was. After. Two thousand one, the tragedies of nine eleven at that you start to do it engagement here I I see the. Surgery, took us is the. President of the C. Fought I. met him in two thousand one before September eleventh at that time he was a little us was the director of policy planning. At the State Department at an item in but really vividly. At that time, that's what I lease Tim was that he asked as Afghans we have through ready difficult times, but the terrorist groups working enough honest on which model that aim is, of course, at the moment we are in the frontline data Amos the United States or listen civilization that was like a few months before before September. Eleven and then team the tragedies. In be also lost prior to September. The leader of the resistance just two days before that the lead. Much. Masud. Few days, Anniversary since then we have come a long way in. diesel settlement dangerous stuff everybody but nobody. Would like to see a determinist groups. Attain Group. Once again in the silent, then have occupied The people around at the at on the would riding important Part of the agreement signed between the United States in the Taliban is Taliban severely links with al Qaeda in terrorist groups at that has to be observed ABC the sort. By Nestle make sure that that part of Dag minutest implemented fully because it's important for us. It's important advocate. For this of the the sacrifices. That you have made other partners have made. In this country. I know that the. Negotiations will be complexities. There will be A. At At, there will be people which which may APP may worry about Cert- Things that. As a whole I can say that the people have gone hopefully. At the same time they have concerns. Do we go back to the old days? What happens to the at of? The. People have stunned, which is that as early as a result of too many sacrifices from from US Afghans in an odd Athens of in partners. In the Could we can we? Get to a point out the while maintaining views. And real life. Agreed to live in peace within. A country a sovereign country without allowing cut. With. To violence and then compete for ideas peacefully politically that's that same endeavour side. As. Being too. If we don't get that, then it will be the continue the agony Mississippi Sapphire. Migration in all sorts of at net other situations that we have been through that will continue so. It's a moment of being hopeful at to A. At the same time. went to the new site of all those lists which are involved about two eventually as deadly. The absolute majority of people are found at dignified doodle peace attempt to which is unified in does not all by terrorist groups and expects that I tough. Its own citizens in contribute to the will be enough its own people. But at the same time materialized those petitions if onomic in otherwise, which will be beneficiary degen. Doctor when you talk about the rights of Afghans of course. Fifty percent of the Afghans the women had. Few if any rights under Taliban rule, what is your sense as to? Whether or not the gains, the enormous games that women have made. Since late. Two. Thousand One. will be sustained in this new arrangement that is being developed. I would say that. You'll know the detail. Brady different views when we are talking about two sites, Taliban movement in the Slavic at public in the same time at these changes, old gains asphalt as the women. Women's rights is said at these are not superficial at this. This has taken its roots at in in different parts of the county that's not limited to the city's to open areas of the country. Some of those things including at the freedom of speech those are not reversible. That's it. That depends on on on audibility as to to accept one another's ideas. But at the same time, compete father does I mentioned contests voted politically without resorting to violence. In that sense I would say that the absolute majority of the people of finest on are supportive of women's rights including the people would not would not go back to the days that they will not be able to send their goals to schools all over or any that situation richer which was imposed upon the people. Back to at this will be. Tough issues in negotiating table back to. Those are the things that majority. Symbol around at in I know that the negotiations are still really just in the preliminary stages, agenda and so forth. is there any sense yet that? Again. Women's rights will truly be. Achievable in these negotiations do you have any inclination so far? The point is that. We might not be able to convince Taliban or persuade them to accept everything that we say at the same time. Taleban will not be able to to to to to convince us for their own ideas that yes to cease fighting at to to add to not to use violence in at the same time. They should excel that two things have changed in the past. Twenty years especially at the end when one of the. Leaders which was a part of the insurgency that later on joined as a mistake Matab when he joined desert with he was in Kabul, my message to him was that the said Hickman. funnest understand his ability different of Honda's son since we lost net at, which was like twenty seven years back. And part of that is the. The youth at the women, the civil society, the flea media, the vibrant to private sector in all of this for us to to to to to deserve to lead the campaign we should we should. We should accent that things are different in an embrace those changes which are which are which are not reversible. So those things issues will be will be debated. End. Women. Indeed negotiating team prominent women. Members of negotiating on behalf of this, slamming the public back to those will not be left to those four member. Distinguished. Women. Representative. Spent All those which are dad will be will be. Lining. Got when it comes to the rights of women including the OBAMAS which are part of our team as. You talk about the cessation of hostilities. Of course, it's not just the Taleban again who have been making life difficult for Afghanistan. Sadly, it's also the economy network sometimes the Connie Taliban, it's termed the Tariq Taliban Pakistan the IMU of course al-Qaeda the Islamic state. Can the Taliban speak for more than two first of all can Taliban speak for all of its own members In this negotiation in second, does it speak for any of these other groups? or will they also have to be dealt with at some point down the line noting that again al-Qaeda and Islam estate will be unacceptable any. Yes. The town about. Toby. To be fair to them. Did Oppressive D Duda percent. As far as their own organization. Movement is concern including how Tony? Be, do the present desert representatives of death also in the negotiating the around negotiations over there so. That might not be the main question. The main question will be what happens Guida I mentioned. This earlier as well, which is this is part of the the aggreement between the United States in the Taliban that the Taliban will not a harbor. That will not support. Them will not let them. Do It on eighty s and so on and so forth at that has to be checked throughout because that's part of the agreement between the United States end the Taliban of course is not making will have a support al-Qaeda were alone that your will aware of when it comes to certain eleven groups. If Isis Taliban in Isis at times They're fighting against that. So Duck Alabama do not come on. Of Control, over the Isis but once. The. Fighting with Taliban is not dad the Bruce would have little chance would have little chance to. To add to to operate within Afghanistan of course, they will not. Go Away with them actively, the will be around in one has to focus on finishing them but to. The same time it's because of instability in the continuation of wealth in abroad parts of the country in large part of the country that does other groups also take advantage of this I am you in. Some of them they might they may join isis if Taliban truly these process than than they do not support them anymore. But that's that does not mean al Qaeda of course at Taliban have a commitment to deliver as far as al Qaeda and Isis of. Now. As you know, one of the preconditions for the negotiations was the release of detainees. By the Afghan government son five thousand or so of them. the agreement was that they would not pick up arms again, would certainly not resume fighting against Afghan or coalition forces or the Afghan people. do you have an assessment? Of How many of these five thousand might have actually returned to combat Instead of laying down their weapons. to be honest I don't have a sort of talking about percentage. Wise. Something like that. But I do know that some have returned to the battlefield, which is the violation of Dag demand. That did they had made I. do know that this has happened I by have examples in San Media's in these people have started insurgency in those in those areas Wednesday left back. I will say that the majority have not done to healthy that. That might be the right assistant. That's that's somehow some half. Ill and that of course. Again, the whole focus here is really to get a cessation of hostilities which have cost the Afghan people and security forces so much in coalition forces so much over the years. Do, you have any sense that the Taliban are they are reducing the level of violence. Given reports just in recent days of new renewed assassinations and violence, and so forth. At the moment unfortunately at that level of violence betty, hi, the number of security incidents. Inundated by Taliban in different parts of the county has increased not decreased. In it's important in that was part of message yesterday in the in the Universal Day for peace that while the negotiations continue in, we assumed that both sides have participated in good fake in those negotiations is critical that we see at a action and violence in order to be able to maintain the popular support for the peace process on the ground. I'd advice a the people have have harnessed on will not. Will Not time to sign. Yes. Of course one is that nobody's expecting Orion dissipating that in a few days time we have the company said peace with the Taliban that's a that's that least to the doable these applauded da in the country we know that it will take. Time but at the same time, since the aim of this is to achieve peace in the stability throughout the campaign, we need to prove it a in in practice as well that what we can do is deduction significant reduction in violence we see government of on this, the public is committed to that, and and that is a that position is very clear but unfortunately so far at the level of violence, very high end to a level that is not. Acceptable for the people and I repeat my call to debate about themselves and also. At partners who have any limited Over over the Taliban to press on that point at So at. Dot. Maintaining the momentum in strange than it's further. which is not the case at the mall. You mentioned some of those who may have some influence with the Taliban One of the challenges of course has always been that the Taliban. Is Not located in on Afghan soil. nor are the headquarters of most of the other insurgent extremist groups again that have made life. So difficult for Afghanistan there is a reason why The Quota Shira is named as it is. It's outside Quetta in Baluchistan province of Pakistan Connie. As you know, we're in North Waziristan in the tribal areas that you know. Well. What is your sense as to the contribution? The role that Pakistan is playing at this point in time. We do Sidley lecture sometimes back, we had the visit of General Dodge. BUXTON's army chief wind he spoke with us with the leadership in carbon the. Present Vani at the in talking about in. Talking about unified on Estan, Democratic Fund, a sign that county which which does not zone and so part I didn't see any any difference of view in that sense at the same time when it when it comes to the realities on the ground yourself Oh, to part of it. and. As far as encouraging Taliban to participate in the negotiations at the play, the role American colleagues are saying including a Busta F Eliza did not times that at the data of issues. They, seek death. I myself will be traveling. To signing in a few days time at this will be my first visit to Buxton. At two thousand eight. End. ABN. It we we beat. We do believe that it isn't the interest of all the countries of the region other neighboring countries. And they will benefit from from this and this is what they say, and then the way forward this to cooperate at an. In to. To to. To put it in deeds at in and it worked to get evidence. because. We messed a lot of opportunities in the past for decades at especially in the last two decades with which the will was forthcoming with support at the this stuff that was opened for cooperation because of different enumeration of the in violence, we missed a lot of opportunities in countries off. dirtyjohn. Also have missed opportunities. Data's a lot of mistrust unfounded we need to adjust those things are in. This sort of fog wouldn't forward-looking ways. lots of grievances on both sides Afghans also have a lot of deviances that in that regard. Back to the way forward this is a really add to to realize that tube these extremists, ABC. elements which taking advantage of the situation like. alkai that in. Isis would idea that again is Asian They're not serving any country's interests the only after the opportunities and win the water ends these groups will not have a foothold at the Rice said, they'll turn against any other any country that they won't of the twice they will. They will choose it for themselves. That is. That is what we need to focus on. That will be the focus of Audra. to get out of my visit to Pakistan, which will be official visit than I'd see with the leadership in. Buxton. In the off these situations that. Very. Good. Just three more questions from me, and then we'll go to the questions from the audience. Be Hekmatyar. agreement and you may recall I was privileged to. Host. A couple of the very early meetings that got that going before handing off command to General. Allen. Do you see that as any kind of example, four, what is going on with the Taliban or are the dissimilarities greater than the similarities? gifts did data lots of disabilities as well that one thing which it which I always I've been vocal about it don't also have gone public about it. Appreciated is. Attitude. To Talk. Dynamically out and then eventually find a way to live in peace even to the he might have grievances says because of. The fact that that agreement might dumped being implemented. Completely which is, which is understandable. But He took that decision. and Ab at that's that's the man. That's that could be demand the main. principle. In also a We hope hope that. Debt. Is Designing miscalculation in part of the Taliban in a way that okay. Model when they used to withdraw from honest on than there might be a chance to about trump. Otherwise at that will be a big miscalculation at in that said. That will be missed opportunity for all of us. I've no doubt in my mind I I mentioned that. Statement. INDIANA. Enough. They don't have talks at that. There are no winners in the war if it continued a no losers in an inclusive visible settlement. In Arab with all the attacking John You have seen it firsthand at you've you've. Listened to the today to these studies of victims of war in this country yourself you've seen. As loud net with all those things which has just happened. We need to we need to put this to an end and it cannot be done with one side in it takes both sides adding miscalculation in any party in any side. Will be will be a big big jet in big missed opportunity. Well, as you know no one wants an agreement more than those who have seen the sacrifice that results if you don't have an agreement. But of course, we want an enduring A. Government as I know you agree as well. you have famously contested at least three presidential elections that. again were, shall we say very close at the end? I just wonder the relationship that you enjoy with. The current president. Dr Ashraf Ghani given that you have again. Contested elections In which he emerged as the victor. But of course, you are now the representative of this government which it seems to me underscores. a degree of confidence place by. The president in the government in you. At the Yes in fact, it will. A three rounds of elections. One round was two rounds. Yes, it was. All In. Two Thousand Nine I did compete for a second down the rise of the infest elections. today. Yes. Simon. In charge of the F. The. Hike. On some for national reconciliation as a result of the agreement that we signed with present. Ronnie this was. A very disputed election. A band even more disputed in the previous months and then eventually. we both came to China understanding that this have an agreement because it was at this. Elections will take place at times that the fighting was being on at the United. States. was about to sign an agreement. With with the Taliban at the in, give a push for the peace process in all those complex it is on top of that had. As if we didn't have enough did we have with nineteen? So at that sort of environment. I'm happy to to to be in a situation. At that time in charge of the. Peace efforts in two in also what we present is broader than the government. Of course, it's safe and that they not make the public of. Sandwich. President Granny's the president of the country back in the hype trump in the. At people which are end up position or people which are not even in the opposition but art of the society but he brought to presentation that people It'd be leading those those. Efforts are in. Things will have its own coupling complexities. APP and. Without to without without. going into further details at it. I believe I. do believe that. There is a potential opportunity for the finest on and that we need to act in a much much more unifying unified manner. In order to embrace a dignified peaceful settlement that's necessary. That's necessarily terrific. That's mass in forbidden if the war continues continued to be imposed upon us if the other side does not. Does not come to terms something which is acceptable for everybody. At that will be a very bad scenario. Again, we need we need to add to act in a unified manner I can say to ourselves which conservative you as a friend that. You could be assured that I will do. A bit stuff my capacity and not to not to attribute to differences but rather to. To to strengthen the unity within that country, which is which is mostly need. Someone who has great admiration and indeed a faction for Dr Ashraf, Ghanaian for you. Thank you for. That statement and more importantly, thank you for your actions over the years on one last question from me, and then we'll turn to the questions from the audience and this has to do with. The US and whether the US is offered any guarantees such as a commitment to keep certain counterterrorism forces, advisors, combat enablers, and so forth aircraft. Drones and so on and to provide funding for the Afghan security forces and operations and select government institutions has. has there been that kind of commitment as part of this process. We Have A. Declaration the same day that Doug Liman was signed with Taliban news in the Taliban was joined declaration. Between a thunderstorm United States I wouldn't call it guarantees but I will say that the assurances. Being given not about those, those those details of the military assistances. Anita. Megyn of support for the institutions also for. Leap building of the county post piece. That's part of that the joint declaration, but I wouldn't call it guarantees. And? At. So that's that that has been put into the sorts of times. Very good. Now, let's turn to the audience for the first question. please. We will take our first question from Kimberly Dosier. Thank you Dr Abdullah's Kim Dozier from time. By one of your answers to general portrays is the aim of the Doha talks to bring the Taliban in the existing political structure of the republic or are you open to remaking or giving up at structure? And also, dear, security services confirm as the UN reports that the Taliban is maintaining its relationship with al Qaeda and the Connie Network. which is believed to be behind the kidnapping of Navy veteran mark free this year and possibly behind kidnapping American writer Paul over be who was last seen in coast in two thousand fourteen. Thank you. Thank you Kimberly. as far as the toxin in Doha out concerned both sides have digital views. In all those issues should be on the table and then the outcome should be something which is acceptable to both sides. I'd rather than having gap precise prescription. Of course, I would say that certain values including at the one person van vote at a public, the rights of Women Free Certain Freedoms Freedoms Freedom of speech that the right of minorities at the right of the victims, all of those are the things that. The Islamic republic. Delegation the present. debated. In will will hopefully will get to an agreement with with the Taliban. When it comes to a to to the knicks part of the question Harnett is part of the Taliban movement. It's the Yes because of being much more active at throughout many many years in behind a list of the the. Big here is security incidence at throughout those years it has. Preserved the name for the self as well but it's part of the Taliban a movement. But when it comes to. Tighten. As I mentioned earlier the as security. Intelligence. The institutions they believe that al Qaeda's still active. So. That part of the commitment at least to say, the least is not completely implemented at the part of the Clement on had with the United States, not to not to cooperate to read to with the al-Qaeda not to allow them at. Tuesday territories under the control of the Taliban and so on and so forth not to tolerate them that that part of the agreement is not implemented. At least a completely. Doctor before going to the next question I. Had a question since she raised al Qaeda and its continued presence. I have as against you mentioned spent time obviously in Afghanistan several different capacities. In each of those, I went out into eastern Afghanistan into the areas where al-Qaeda had the sanctuary in which the nine eleven were planned and where the initial training the attackers was conducted. I must say, I have never understood doing entirely. the magnetic attraction pull of that area for. Al Qaeda obviously I guess it is mountainous. It's perhaps easy to hide their maybe maybe there's some caves or some other. Areas in which they can seek cover but do you have any sense about what it is about eastern Afghanistan in particular that makes it so attractive for al Qaeda and now also we should note the Islamic state as well for its its element that the straddling Afghanistan Pakistan. Apart from the terrain which is you can. You can appreciate which is which is. Highly. Mountainous, and Bray difficult today in easy to hide which which would be the main factor. In. The at factor would be that Crossing the line in those areas off the. Decided that side of the line at their fair supporters and sympathizers which they have taken advantage of that situation that might be made when reason. Well, in let's go to the next question now thanks to that doctor. We'll take our next question from Bernard Aronson. Thank you very much Dr The thank you for your questions here. I worry about the signals might govern is been sending for the last several years and how that undermines potentially the leverage you bring to the negotiating table. Preliminary talks to set up the. Talks. With the ministration the Taliban Thatcher gunman in the in the room they they've been withdrawing troops as they. Go through this process. Retires noted that the prisoner release did not have any parent sanctions for violations of juice as on rolling In my experience. Conflict, Resolution Salvadoran Central America Colombia. One precondition is at this insurgents have to believe the future's going to be worse than the present militarily and otherwise. But I wonder if the Taliban, look at these signals in the hear the president talking about withdrawal of all our troops at some point, and it just gives them the incentive to to buy their time and hope for the Americans you know get on their helicopters ago and I wonder if there are any signals that you think the US good sand that would be more supportive of your efforts in same signals to the Taliban, it might convince them that this is not simply a matter of waiting out the United States. Avenue? The point is that to officer nineteen years? Of Engagement. The United States as departments. Altogether in too many sacrifices at yes. If you're talking about the Factors in circumstances in conditions around. Are selene myself being part of state the. Businesses against al-Qaeda and Taliban. Indeed late nineties out of the resistance against the older union in eighties. We would have liked it to be a to be to be two different at because sometimes, those messages which are part of the realities of our time might have been misinterpreted in a way like a message, which is which is. From a position of. Weakness sold over not having any other twice or something like that, and then the APP differential tools at may get a different impressions at That might have been the case. In run on two occasions but at the same time. The United States also has been very clear about to about his. Dissolve not to let Afghanistan turn into into. Into a base those status groups that message also has been very loudly et de loud it is. It is. It is voiced at the debate will received a bye bye Birdie also asked that out of the commitment is very obvious that nobody wants to although sacrifices to be in vain after so many years of. Contribution in baton at Tricia so. Message of messages of support. Followed the the. Stable F not. Democratic. not harboring terrorist groups at the same time academy, which respects the rights of its own centers unseen in peace within the without those messages should be the imposed all the time two days ago. I deceived the letter from from Senate of Gum, Lindsey Graham which you will like. Fifty. Would leaders at signed Eliza in support of the preservation of the right of women in a fund son does were. Very prominent leaders from. From from the United States as well as from around the world have these sorts of efforts in also. Being very clear about not tolerating. Harvesting in. Ninety mold, those will be held. Anchor a great question Bernie especially given your background and experience with El. Salvador in Colombia the great work you did the next question please. Take. Our next question from Zeeland Nori. The ditch. The line also jet Patriot as good to talk to you here you. Thank you so much. My question questions do Dr Abdullah. Arab instantly. A lot of member money member of Taliban delegation this book to media into him focuses on the bringing typos Islamic Emirates in Afghanistan but Slavic Arabic enough Denison what does define line in agreement here in what do we expect because people don't WanNa even think about the Islamic Emirates wants was in Afghanistan will be brought back in the insisting on this. It would be insisting on their points of views back to those issues will be debated between both sides. And Ability. To the public. And if they have certain views about the constitution of the campaign issue as it than they should, they should prove it does our does are something that will will be in danger stuff. The people those issues will be debated. In a very sort of serious manner by both sides what I mentioned India in large to the edge to general. Question at the beginning We'll. We'll the part as far as our vision for the future is concerned and it's it's odd ability to understand that to data snow bunting an end to the war through fighting in violence in less stop fighting and find ways that we can live to get in this country without trying to impose our own views over the rest of the population. They can put those ideas once we reach an inclusive settlement. To test. Through getting the votes of the people it didn't. I'm absolutely shaw that absolute best of the people of honest on a Willoughby for preservation of the rights of citizens. including, a fifty percent of the assets over fifty percent which women. There is no doubt that to be tough negotiations and. disagreements but the agreement has to be on on finding a system that we can live in peace while maintaining our differences in in fighting for those differences politically rather than through violence. Thanks Next question please. Our next question from Peter Galbraith. Dr Bill. Good to see you again and of course, all of us who have served in Afghanistan, which will in this process. You may recall that in two thousand nine, we had some conversations about the merits of a parliamentary system and a more decentralized system I won't use I shouldn't use the word federal, but with some of those aspects and my question is. And that of course was that would not be just in the interest of the Taliban. But possibly of different communities in Afghanistan I wondered whether you see saw that as a possible outcome more decentralized and antic were parliamentary system are then they the kind of system that where so much power rests in the single president. Vetoed looked to hear from you. I remember vividly those days because you are also. In. D. Election team you an. Election team in the. That is. Those those are very vivid. Memories at ended, there are two things in that. Got One is my own view in terms of parliamentary system. It throughout those elections that I have fought. I that has been part of odd the agenda in political agenda which I do believe that that is. That is that will better serve Dan just off the people. Let me make it clear. But now now I'm in a different position not competing election I'm I'm in charge of the Constellation. Any system that was better in decamped One thing which I am saw that very centralized. Decision Making System has not proved itself successfully. Dilution of our authority listing country. But there are some some groups which fair that it might. It might undermine the Apollo will or authority in that some intelligence that that exists and that's also part of of the. The entity of our politics in the county though sort diffent did of us so Aftab like my my personal view. View that I fought. At is is, is the one that that yourself defer to in a an even if to extend the Karen Constitution allows, for example, the elected bears we have not implemented that art of our Constitution. And there's no doubt that has led to a condition of distance between the people the public in the central. Government back to what is it that we can we can. We can actually around the table with the other side that's something that that that will that will shape the future of the country back to I will maintain my my views in that regard knowing that country being in the country in in having seen the challenges of the county, it will provide opportunities rather than challenges for the central government backed. Anyway these are different views at out. Thank you Peter Next question. Take our next question from Rina Amiri. Hello, Dr of the general portrays a pleasure to see both of you I had a question regarding the process as I understand both highs have agreed that at this stage direct negotiation between the two sides and thousand outside. ACILITATOR in mediator is desired and there aren't any structures like group of friends or the type of mechanisms. One traditionally sees and a peace process. Are there scenarios in which you would imagine that you would that the teams would find having an outside mediator and and other such structures and desirable for profits goes forward. Thank you. Thank you. another another friend being involved in the elections in Boston knowing all those natick duties of the past elections at good to hear from you as well in the currently of course, we have both sides agreed that there will be no acilitator in the room would mediators group which should we defer to from time to time host sandy is also had to allow US colleagues involved. But. At one stage if there is a need. For five mediator, which will be I should say, but that depends on the agreement. Between both sides we're open to that we are open to that but. The moment that stayed arrangement. Question, thanks. Next question please. Take our next question from honey. Thank you very much. Thanks for the set discussion David for what's thing at. My question relates to lots question that David ops before returning to the audience, and that is as you know, we buckton election here in the United States in the next five or six weeks. I'm just wondering. Of Us is a body of the discussion or involved in. The the ATHOL, Gunston Eventually, NICK AS TO WHO Becomes President which administration will take over and what difference will be. Yes A. Knowing it from abroad in being. Followed it. How much difference it will make as far as the presence of troops. On the ground distant Sun I'm not sure I so but at the same time, both sides both both to. Canada administration in future administation depending on the elections will be Wadey of. Had the. Presence of any threat terrorist threat from honest that Barth this very clear on also cook Nissen the sacrifices made in the past twenty years in the nineteen years in. Afghanistan. Would it have? An Impact one way or another that. I should say that to. Mab. Not, sure here, the policy, the broader aspects of the policies and may continue in the same way but you are in much better position to to jets dad rather than ask being here. Exxon next question please. Take our next question from Monica Meta. Go ahead. Monarch Go ahead and move on and take our next question. From Bob Tuttle. Dr Dula I'd like to expand on Peter Galbraith question. You think that there's any chance out of this negotiation. That there could be two separate entities really almost two separate states one ruled by the current government and one controlled by. The Taliban I guess really almost two separate countries. No absolutely not. That will be the last thing that Africans would would accept at. That will not be in the interests of the country in and also the demographics of the county terrain the degrees, the economic dependence also of social socioeconomic situation is site in also the people have have harnessed on in spite of all those upheavals that have gone through in the past decades. Deva. Not a not asked for. It will not ask for that. They will not accept it. Ambassador Cuddle next question. Please take our next question from Arvin. Ball. High Q. here. We. Thank you very much for taking my question I wanna ask you just in terms of incentives, right? If I'm looking at this this process from Taliban perspective. It makes sense for them to agree you know to say they WANNA have peace when the US troops leave You know they can kind of the more leeway to do what they want. Right because once US troops are gone, it's hard to muster the political will in the US to send them back also from perspective of Pakistan. I know they've been helpful in the peace process but given that the the ISI in the military have long seen strategic depth as the cornerstone of their Afghan policy like. They're thinking if they get the US to leave, it becomes a lot easier for them to support the Taliban or other sort of you know fundamentalists who need groups loyal to his Lama Slob. So I just I'm just trying to think from their perspective is. Good to have this agreement, the US troops are gone once they're gone, they may not come back. Then they have more ability to do a kind of what they want increasing the power of the Taliban, a lot of these. You know groups that they've been. They've been supporting for a very long time. I did Mike me some calculations. In an thinking amongst. the. Some Taliban leaders, but should this be the case? It would be a big miscalculation I hope that's not the case. And that will be only a discipline for the. Of The wall in agony of the people rather than one side prevailing over the that will not happen in and unfortunately should this be thinking in? Wall will be will be prolonged I don't want to be. A I hope directed at. They've learned a lesson from the recent history of Country Times. They were in control of a nearly eighty five percent of the country of the territory at least. Would be population more or less back not did not the lead to to them. Prevailing honest on than they lost controlled in things happened afterwards did a lot of lessons for us up. The the Islamic Republican people in this side of the the line. The Taliban de countries off the decision. And Hopefully doc miscalculation is not is not part of the part of the game. Thanks for that question what you did back in the day. that'll be the last one. I'm afraid I think that everyone who has participated in the session. now knows once again why it has been a privilege to work with and to know Dr Abdullah Abdullah over the years. Why? Afghanistan is so fortunate to have had him serving? In various capacities and indeed in this capacity right now. And really privileged to have the session with you doctor, and perhaps we bullshit thank the council on Foreign Relations for hosting what? is almost a reunion of all those who have been engaged in your great country over the years. Thank you again very much. Thank gentle father important to. Of course. I want to tank relations are providing paternity in for those who participated in nevertheless those. Questions. Were also tricky. Sylvia's important. In. Dan I tried by with by Stability To to to maintain honesty. To be. Diplomatic Times. Better. I know. That is a lot of a lot sake just for Afghans but for too many people including hundreds of thousands of people who have served scanty, we consider them as of Youtube. as as Ambassadors Zab in the amendment is sometimes very tough hard memories. into to at in what we achieved was serve the sacrifice that all those people's attention. International partners have made a tanker David. Good to see you in good spirit is very wise of you're not to be seriously involved in determinant politics, but what you are doing is serving. Dangerous of your people in House in I'm grateful for that. All the best. Thank. You Dr and we share hopes for what may come out of this effort that you're engaged. Thank you again very much and thank you.

Taliban US Afghanistan president Pakistan Dr Abdullah Abdullah Connie Taliban Alabama Doha Isis al-Qaeda Bonn Virginia State Department Dr Dole Dole Tim representative Dr Abdulah Dr Perhaps
MWA337 - Brian Brazil's 5 Favorite Handtools

Modern Woodworkers Association

31:19 min | 7 months ago

MWA337 - Brian Brazil's 5 Favorite Handtools

"Welcome to the modern woodworkers association. A podcast about woodworking from folk. Who would woodworking is what we do who we are and what we like to talk about so join us as we have a drink. Sit around and talk woodworking. Hi welcome to the three hundred and thirty seventh episode of the modern woodworkers association podcast. I'm kyle barton. i'm here with my co host. Sean was new ski and market today. Were asking brian brazil. What is favourite hand. Tools are so welcome back to the show. Brian longtime no talk indeed exactly so as a hand tool aficionado. Figured we would Ask you what your favorite five hand tools are so actually gave me a heads up on this so i was able to wandering the shopping. Exactly remember what handles are so. The question is do you. Do you list them. The most used to leave used most favored. Yeah that's good so we go from five to one or one to five. I think we should go from from Five to one was. Is it the handle like your favorite handle at the best story. Yeah yeah so so. Let's start with hand tool number five. What you're out out of the five top hand to what's number five. Oh and i have to reorder these. No will i put him in doors because the wall In like i came to mind kind of order so the first one that came to mind was a have the divert shooting plane in shooting board. Okay which is like complete leg woodworking or the five one in dublin is called. it's a five or something. Yeah i think so. It will like a ton and a half i get the shooting board would costs. Probably more than my car plywood. What do you drive would do so nice. It's like what are you using that for the most are using it for panels or you know like frames. How does that fit into your workflow. Really well the workflow is that i am a really crappy sawyer her yes so when i saw something. It's got a pretty pretty hefty angles on it. So everything gets everything sees the shooting board. Okay well yeah. That's cool All i would say that it would. No i use it to dial in my exact measurements by the thousand year drawer fronts to get them fit perfectly with the reality is that it is a is a tank. Heavy shooting plane game in it will under proper direction and application. It will true an edge to pretty damn near ninety degrees. Even if you don't mean it to be like it's it's what it does right. Yes can i ask this. Why did you choose. veritas nielsen I kind of go toward veritas a little bit planes at least But it was also. I remember it being significantly cheaper gas i. It is very similar jewel. The reason i know this. Because i have the lien also one young muslims here are the number fifty one and it is and i agree with you in all respects. It has fantastic. Unfortunately a chair maker. And i may be used at once or twice a year. There are so many times. I sit there and say what i sell this one on us this. But i don't so i didn't we nelson. You can sell them for more than you bought them for right. I don't know you can ship them to japan from but let me know. Let me know. But you know how. I built Shooting board you know. This is before Veritas had their you know pretty nice. Shooting bore which i think you can use with any plane whether it be lee nielsen. Or the Lavallee or veritas plane so Yeah so i don't know anyway. Listeners made an offer vote based on the same. The same basic wing from stanley. Yeah it's usually throws a little as victims. Learn puts it. Leeann is classical and veritas jazz. Exactly mine before Leave allah came out with their. But i remember i was. You know. I think it was at one of the league nielsen events that came to houston. You know where they have all the planes out there and they had the they had that they're now is sitting there you know. Just taking these wispy shavings off the walnut and grain. I was just like okay. He sold me. I gotta have owner. Something about those ingrained shavings. that are. Oh yeah off their super cool. I've got a number four. That can take him and it's like oh that's is that that's so cool. The that stacked of green shavings particular. Let shaving nikolay pretty much seat through it. It's like yeah that's pretty cool that's goodwin so what what's your next tweet at. This one is Speaking of week in the last episode recorded several weeks ago We talked about vintage tools and one of my favorites is the vintage stanley number. Three that i found in the basement of her space to live in it was one of my grandfather's tools and after tuning it up. Been making it work. That is my fine. Gossamer shaving plane. What do you have a good question i think. It's the veritas. I think it's an a two okay. So i think that's the biggest upgrade to have displaying is modern blade Yeah i i'll even say i've got wood river four number four and that is a better blade than the vintage joe stanley. Yeah that i've got so that. See that yeah will. I have to second. Brian's recommendation. Here because i have the lien nilsson number three and swimming plane. I absolutely love that. Use that as much as possible for those gossamer than shaving whatsoever actually upgraded that blade to Actually the veritas pm. Eleven because if you buy the replacement blade that fits into the stanley one will actually fit into the lee nilsson. So that's a. I think. Chris wars actually posted about that. I bet says he posts about. I went yeah. Pvs eleven of this stuff when upgrade to that so yeah what's the. What are the dimensions of the three. And i'm holding my four and my hand. I say it's about nine inches long. It's roughly two inches wide. it's a little thinner. I think it's like a. I don't know i got six zero three right here. Pension three quarters two and a half to in an eighth wide. Okay and soul is eight and three quarters but the tote is another half an inch three eighths of an inch out. Yeah at the end. Yeah it's kind of like a a wide block blaine. Yeah it's a really interesting in four and a and a block plane like as far as that. No that's that's that's very cool. I mean those are. It's great. I mean my my my mike. The closest i've got to the gossamer shavings you know it's it's Was it was a great just for that. Define last pass kind of stuff and getting wispy with spezia. No fantastic stuff. Yeah from my perspective. I'm kinda like the hybrid woodworker. But when i'm dealing with chairs so If i grab a plane usually a set number three there. I'm grabbing which you now just to make those fine you know You know cuts in you know. Just kinda get everything right in line to wear one at two. So it's kinda interesting you guys have convinced me. I'm going to have to clean up the six. Oh three included working. I'm looking at it right now. This is a board of education plane. It's got like the the bake lite black handle and a rosewood ob on the front and I think it came from chicago schools or something like that. But yeah i have to get. Pm v eleven blade in there and get it working cool nothing against the four but yeah it's one of those i have it three. I don't eventually. I kind of want get a the league nielsen number. Four in the bronze see my number. Three is in the in the lene nielsen. Bronze that extra. Heft might make the difference. That's and i think they did a four and a half in bronze. Which is i mean. It was gorgeous but it was like seven hundred bucks have feelings about four and a half i. i'm not. I have a the lee valley. The veritas four and a half low angle and the extra width. It kind of works against you. Digging it starts to it starts kind of Counteract the whole idea of a smoother. Is it smaller in in. It can ride the curves and the dips in the valleys. And when you make the plane iron. I don't know a half inch or three quarters of an inch wider you lose a lot of that and I didn't learn that. Until i bought one and use it for a while but But yeah i think And i thought. I thought it'd be helpful because i work with large stock but It's it's still problematic. I still find myself wishing for a narrower plane. We'll get six. oh three up. It'll be interesting to see what you think about Yeah yeah the only thing that bothers me about putting sick a thicker blade on these old planes is a lot of times you to file mouth open To get the blade to come through. And i well it depends if you if you really want fine shavings. That may not be a problem. You have a really tight mouth but it's gonna take some work. I'm looking at it. It's got a it's got some corrosion on the soul doesn't need to be pretty though it just needs to cut so there's a. There's a video on youtube for that. I'm sure is using it. Were like fine shaving finishing kind of work. You can have a super tight mouth. That's right that's an via tandy. Absolutely that's that's one. The advantage of those things like super tight set super small mouth. Just nut nothing. More than tabasco's. You're taking millimeter shavings now knocking. Thousands thousand seattle. Even fighter starts super tight. Super type stuff. You can see through and it just vinyl pass. Do not do this if you need to correct us saw on it you know no because it'll take you don to do it. You know you this is the whole you know medium one does it like course medium. Yep yeah i mean that's the whole idea. You need to really have the set there that being said i mean anybody that has planes. I think you need three. Just to kind of bridge. The gaps between the uses. Jack plane does a lot of things. Obviously if the jack of all trades but You you it helps to have something a little longer. A little more precise for joining a little little jackie for everything with a camera to really do thing and then then you get your number for number three to to be your finisher. You know or if you're really fancy your tour you want. But i'm not a violin maker. So i'd select avid number one. Just i mean it'd be. I'm having i don't you don't need a number one if you just for in giggles for last. Yeah yeah like. Oh i have a number one. How much you pay for that. Yeah don't ask. I have a number one. That's all that matters. So what's your number three sued speaking of planes that can be rough I think my scrub playing really okay. Which is is not a scrub plane at all. But it's a it's a five quarter that i picked up in a raffle. What is the what is the difference between the five and the five five and a quarter is narrower and i think a little shorter at scrubby his it was kind of like the school shop class version of the five not as much medal us. But they wanted to say it was a five okay And i kinda got this blaner. Gotta this big open mouth and camera plan on. that zack. Ever played yeah. Put a monster camera on the blade. It takes a chunk of wood out of the time. It's very sharp. But i basically used that in my planner to get everything you know flat and parallel You're thinking explainer or your. Oh okay you have a thickness planer. I'm fully guy. Understood aren't suceed induced. You know there are certain times when you don't wanna just spend hours thickness material. So i get it. The plan might favor our for that reason it. It saves the most sweat equity jeff junior one side flat and is run it through. Or you don't have to get one side flat just kit four corners flat. Yeah there's all sorts of tricks that things need some rails to run on the right squabbling leaves scant quarter inch of of wile Maybe eight but kind of it's a. It's a good camera But it's enough that the ridges all the same height. Yeah it's only riding on the ridges when it's going to the player right and that's technique. I mean you're you overlap. Your strokes amount or consistent that just has to be consistent. I mean i. I have my frankenstein number five. That's made from like three different planes. That every every benchtop that comes out of clamps. I throw it up on the bench with a pair of winding sticks and check it and they all need a little bit of adjustment. Nearly all of them. And it's done with jack plane done by hand and then i flipped over and run them through the white belt and Having that that true face well relatively true face to start with it. Just you know it gives you better results in the end and the jack the scrub that you know. It's the best way to do it. And i kind of liked it's like there's this mystique with planes for always trying to get these gossamer shavings and third titian. Yeah it's not all about that again. The courts medium fine idea. There's there's a time for just hogging shavings away and there was a time for thin shavings and you have to understand what it takes and what it means to do that you know. Why do you want that. That's that's a very You know if it's important thing to know no planes do a lot of things if you only have a block plan you only know what blocked link can do. There's a lot more out there Yeah exactly right. So what's your number four. So for four. I went with the cards. Flavors is Yeah i i i have. I've lived by card scrapers. I'm bad woodworker your scrub plane. That's hopefully don't follow up your scrub. Play with the card scraper. All that's just the deep wild card scraper will what it'll it'll smooth it out. It doesn't make it true necessarily but it will. It will definitely take off. The bumps will take out the. It works well against pretty much any grain known. That's for sure that absolutely Joking aside yeah. you're exactly right. Yeah yeah it's you can kind of glinted it something in make you not. Flat is three word but make it not smooth. Make your pretty make it pretty. Yeah if you if you wanna blow. Somebody's mind who's new to new to handle woodworking. Pull out a card scraper anti shaving with it. They just it just floors people I know i was the first time i saw one. I was just amazed You know like what is special about this piece of metal and But i i did a i guess. I don't have an edited yet. But i did a video when i was shooting the video series on the Shave horse and actually took a card scraper to a ban saen edge and cleaned it up in no time flat. I mean it was If you if you if you Skew the card scraper. You don't have to worry about it writing those ridges it'll just cut right over the top of them and that's how i that's how i clean up bandsaw marks. Now i don't even bother with a with a r- asked i which is what i used to do I was shooting that video. And i was like here. Let's just see you know what happens when we go right over the the band marks and it was amazing super fast so yeah cart learn how to sharpen a card scraper. Yeah they're they're an asset for sure and it's cheap. It's a cheap tool. Yeah the it's more expensive to buy the burnish lower than it is to buy the card scraper until us the furniture forever you know and you grind cards. Gave her up at one at some point. So we'll play. Video of yours was when you tried to make the crucible card scraper for chris. Williams and iran. Say chris williams. Oh the shape the shape. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Yeah yeah that that was. That was his and And maybe it should just bought. It was the blog post went along. It's like how to lose money making scrapers. Yes what was funny. Was i was in that class when With chris williams and when he pulled out the card scraper and started doing it and were sick. Can we take a impression of that. Jeeze really yeah. And i did the same thing and when i got back i ground my own. Like he did but also bought the crucible wanted to but It's kind of interesting. Because i got like what i got about five scrapers now. Ground that shape in it is. That's a nice shape nice shape. I have one that i got from. Maybe greg pennington. Or maybe somebody who at greg pennington shop who had taken a class with peter gabbert. And it's it's the shape that peter galbraith likes. It's kind of like a windsor chair shape. I it's a. It's got like a french curve. almost it's a it's it's not consistent. Yes it's it's more of a quarter round on one end and it fades out to really shallow curve on the other. And that's the one i'd been using for a really long time but i i like the crucible one because it's better on on flat surfaces Because it's more shallow consistent curve and i use that one that i that i ground and polished and sharpened to match the crucible. One i use it all the time now because it's easier to sharpen yeah But yeah it's Yeah it's it's cheaper to just buy one this just don't be cheap unless you have a huge stack of him laying around just just by one and well what i did do. Is this four crucible. Came out with their is I got a real thick card scraper. said man. I'm gonna kill myself as a d. f. t. tools okay something like that oh man anyway but They make some thick cards scrapers. And i got one of theirs. Grounded that shape so it's kind of interesting to play with the different thicknesses of all. The chris is quite thick. I mean as far as card scrapers go. This is like twice as thick as that. Oh okay okay. I i think the only the one positive to to like picking a shape and grinding your own is learning that you can grind one and because there are times when you need a custom shape and having the confidence to like you know just pull piece of steel out and grind it to whatever you need is is pretty handy d. f. m. tool works. Yeah they he's actually a guest on our podcast Longtime ago but He makes squares and stuff like but he does make some card scrapers. I think The would whisper again. has some of his stuff but Yeah he him real thick one And yes while ground one of his to the same shape yeah. It's it's i mean. I wanna say the crucible one will get you there. One hundred percent of the time But this one's nice if you're really hogging off some good hate stink. Yeah exactly what heat. What does that the finger bacon or something like that that. Chris calls it exactly. Yeah yeah. I caught a whiff of that the other day when i was scraping stuff so anyway that this last tool last one more is one more that will build all the furniture in the world. Oh really yes. Well i got to see machine over here. Power stroke sander for less. What would the veritas block play. Slowly the dx some Oh yes. Yes i have. That one wanted paying tastic. Yes the futuristic camman. Yeah epic. While i mean. Not all their stuff is but that black and black and chrome looking smooth angle angle smooth lines. I mean it was really kind of. I mean retro vehicle futuristic. What i think is wrong. Whatever like pretty nice negative say a fan of blood planes general but just holding. That thing is amazing It out no. I think they did well. I mean again. It's got that we've talked about before with the planes. It's got the weight right is ups got it's got robust parks. It can taken good edge and it's going to do the job it's intended to do without too much effort. Yeah that's awesome air look sexy money. Pnb eleven yeah. Yeah you get that you get good blade. That's gonna sharp easily easily and hold an edge all at the same time. It's a big but yeah it's yeah. That's the small fraction of effort. Yeah i have to say. I have the same plane and i love it. It's fantastic yeah also have a bonus and tool. Oh bonus needed for the silly category. 'cause i love my spill plane like more than i should. Oh is it a red rose spill line. No it's not. It's the veritas. When it was before they have a spill plane okay. Do you make candles with boo. Nobody probably could talk your ear candles. I mean kinda. Yeah you you you dip that coiled shaving in wax and it'll burn like a candle. Oh yeah equal i. Yeah i mean that's a big episode. We have a fundraiser for brian. Who's house just burned down other other than the shape of that shaving. What is that actually. Good for I'm i'm not being facetious. I'm honestly asking like what it's made for that purpose for moving flames from one place to another. Yeah that's it right very much like ours. Yeah yeah removing a quarter inch of stock in a coiled fashion on the output. Just because they're like that's their the i. I'm i've always liked seeing them in use. I think that's really cool. What they produce as much as i like my tongue and groove plane that makes nice little. Curlicue pig pigtail shavings grade but it. It's just like what. what is it do. like it. makes those shavings. It's not a it's not. The work left behind the product. Shaving right yeah. yeah it's global. So that's interesting. are they used a shaming juice for cigars aficionados to speak. I'm not want to use a fancy. Would i don't know i don't know i use them for biting cigars but ansi database fancy. I mean that's i don't know that's a very interesting. They were view was like letting pipes and stuff. Yeah from the fire in the fireplace marketing. Opportunity here some spanish cedar or some yeah a drone or something like that. Yeah very cool. A dollar spill. Hey cool yeah something. You'd have something that you could like. Literally the craft show and make right there and go dollar apiece if you're gonna make yourself it's a piece there. Yeah yeah it. They're cool. I i i've i've x. Respect did their the imagery of it. But i've never gotten to the point of Like yeah that's something i want because i don't know what i would firstly do with it because it doesn't produce much that i would use smoke cigars i don't you know that's the thing but wait. The bonus is completely frivolous. Yeah yeah yeah. I mean you either take it on your your scrap you know and just plant for pizzas cramp into something whole it and go. Okay i got these little cones of scrapings. There we go. Hey this like fit the dog. Actually well tell you what. Brian i got a friend couple of always smoke cigars. So simi some shavings. And i'll see how much i can sell them for and get this apply goal and yeah yeah yeah we'll get this going. Yeah well with that Brian so Working folks find you on the interwebs. I'm on instagram. As bryan underscores the underscored brazil. I'm on the regular internet. I guess the worldwide web. If you won't swamped yankee workshop dot com and be sure to check out the youtube. Page for the woodworkers guild rhode island. We've been putting a bunch of our meetings up there with such luminaries as wilbur van with great So what does the c stamp for. If you don't mind us asking christopher okay we said. I was named for christopher robin out. Really for christopher up yet my mother's big winnie the pooh fan tastic. Well well i means this show won't be airing in china so anyway so more Working folks find you i am. You can find my business at plate. Eleven dot com on the internet. You can find me at mark builds it on instagram and you can find my videos at played. Eleven woodworking on youtube. Sean where are you at. I'm shawn w. seventy eight on most social media's kyle how about you You can always find me at barton. Kyle on instagram or my youtube channel. Just search for a bar in. You'll find me so and that just about wraps it up for this show if you haven't already pleads to the show on the pod catcher of your choice just search for the modern woodworkers association and while you're there please leave us a review. Thanks for listening. You can follow us on instagram at. Mwa underscore podcast you can support the podcast on patriot dot com slash mwa part but the best thing you can do is tell a friend. Word of mouth goes a long way in sharing our discussion.

modern woodworkers association kyle barton brian brazil veritas nielsen lee nielsen Lavallee joe stanley lien nilsson lee nilsson Chris wars lene nielsen greg pennington Brian jeff junior Leeann Veritas
MWA312 - Jason Gallagher answers the 5 Questions

Modern Woodworkers Association

24:09 min | 1 year ago

MWA312 - Jason Gallagher answers the 5 Questions

"Welcome to the modern woodworkers association. A podcast about woodworking from folk who would. Woodworking is what we do who we are and what we like to talk about. So join us as we have a drink, sit around and talk woodworking. Welcome to the three hundred twelfth episode of the Modern Woodworkers Association podcast. I'm call Barton of keyboard and tools and I'm here with my co host Sean was new ski of the Corner Workshop Today were asking Jason Gallagher the five question. So welcome back to the show Jason a thanks and. Let's get started. So you get into woodworking. Well. I think. I got into it. Just. You know. I've always built things with my hands and would is is readily accessible. There's always a two by four or something around, and it's a pretty easy medium to manipulate if you have the right tools and then you know my dad he he let me use a lot of his tools maybe maybe I was a bit young for some of them but you know he wasn't afraid to let me to use the reciprocal. Sorry use the drill or So I think it just started. They're just you know just the passion for making things and would was lying around. Now. Did you grow up in California I? Did I did I grew up in southern California originally okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Well, to buffers are a little bit different if you grew up in Texas, we had southern yellow pine two by fours, which are a little bit tougher. Oh. Yeah. Indulging in my in my days of building southern yellow was only a stair stringers we got. We got to by twelve in southern yellow and for whatever reason I I obvious to four it's not that but. Different Yeah. Yeah I was I was I was thinking about that in our previous episode. I had a similar experience with a dull handsaw in a two by four and yeah that probably kept me out of woodworking for good. Ears so interestingly, enough. Your Your Inexperience Adul-. Or adult saw in a southern yellow pine to buy for I went when. Getting one, my son I was getting treated would hold on I'm thinking because I just went through the other day. Yeah. We were getting up getting for the shed and I. You know economically, it was like we can get eight footers or we can get sixteen footers for a fraction of the price and I can cut it in half before I put it in the car and so what did I do but bring one of my distant d. seven hand sauce in orange. And I we move this sixteen foot two by six or one. Actually. Into the you know into a place where I can cut it and it was actually between the handrails of a of a stairway and I'm ripping or cross cutting. You know this this board and one of the employees comes those. Sir. We have a we saw. The building I said. Why You. I'm good. Trust me I'm good. But but yeah, I mean cutting pressure treated wood is maybe not as bad as southern yellow but it's it's pretty bad so. There were a few and it was it was for the the ramp. Now that I remember the ramp of my shed, I was buying enough to by six and one by a board you know deck boards essentially to to make that. So I was cutting sixteen footers down to five foot sections. Well I'm sure there are plenty of people that have now unsubscribe to our podcast. Just in Seoul on treated lumber. I cleaned it up. It's going to be okay and by God exposed to be you must right. I've got a niece, seventy eight the December came to cross cut. Rip Rip you know, yeah file it's fine. I, put a new window in my house in into to cut a hole in the wall I. Use my old distant rip saws and a big B.'s got sliced right through the drywall and everything. So. I hear you all. Oh that Anyway I've got a good saws all that's what that's for like you get a good reciprocating saw come on anyway anyway. So bring it into that. The second question, what is your favorite tool? I love hand tools so much. You know that's a tough one and maybe it's Cliche or something but I think it is the draw knife. You know I think that's what I. Suck me in into one of the things at least that sucked into to chair making was just making shavings on on fresh greenwood. That's just such a wonderful thing to do and the draw knife is you know it's it's surprisingly versatile curtis talks about What's he's taken taken a tool passed its hockey. Remember what the phrases he says now, but you know if if you if you just if you just. Think like man you you can. You can apply this tool it in so many different ways and cutting off the top of the spindles as they stick through their arm rail or or you know like shaven down arms and everything is just a real versatile and and a lot of fun to us. No, I think it's I think it's definitely draw knife I. Neither have a draw knife or shave horse. So I. Well It's a pity. I've been thinking I need I need a fro- I need a draw knife and then I think at. The draw knife. Yeah and They're plenty plenty of great antique ones just right around the corner from. I have I have a gift card for Nielsen. I think actually the Lee Nilsson is not bad. It's it's it's a decent. It's a decent one. So yeah have you used that one quite a bit young yeah. Yeah. Obviously. Nelson. I like that. I got one I used for my Bebel down from bubble up by was I got one from a Peter. Galbraith. When. I took a class from him and it's it's called a Bailey. It's it's a weird looking drawn. I and when I was using it as class and you know he says, yeah, occasionally Salama go would you sell this one? He's slight. No one has wicked geometry and then the next day he said, yeah I think I might sell that one how much your ego But yeah it's. It's a it's a cool bubble up in tend to use that more but the lead Nielsen's not bad and then I have like four or five others. But those are the two I use the most. So you use a bubble up a lot. Then I use a bubble up a lot. Yeah. Yeah. I know most people use bubble down but this is just this one's Kinda different than. I. Think that's one of the reasons he was kind of a little hesitant to let it go because it It can actually do some pretty nice scooping motions for bubble up. You know you can actually get in there and scoop out stuff which most beloved you can't. It's gotTA. Yeah. It's kind of interesting. I. Don't know I'll post a picture of. A yeah it's it's it's pretty interesting, which is the more aggressive up or down when you're talking about drawn. Or is not even that it's more at the angle of attack. Yeah. I mean about love tends to follow the fibers a little better and for nice straight cuts and in my experience and bevelled downs, you can kinda car a little bit better. I don't know that's my experience so I don't know. You may have different opinions. Jason. Now I, mean I've only used I. think the only time I ever used bevelled down or excuse me was at Curtis's place at for one I didn't have would straighten up to to make one of those work but yeah. You know I I really liked the bevelled down. That's always just that's all I've ever had and I think that's all ever really used so. Yeah. But yet, definitely a, it can be more like I said I. Think it's Kinda how you attack the would because you can really carve some material with a bevelled down and then you know a bevill up sometimes at least in my experience I've had where it can remove a lot of material but maybe not where you want it because it catches and dives. You'll get some tear out or something but I think Bell Down for shares the my preference. Yeah, and it seems to be the one that most people use his is the about will down and I don't disagree I don't know. I. Just like using this bell up one and I've I've done some ask some stuff with it that I remember when I was in the class with the Elia and I did something with that he goes you shouldn't be able to do that with the up an. No. But it doesn't. Well, there's some there's some unique Some unique drown is out there that you know Curtis has a couple of those Barton's I think yeah. Yeah. They're kind of fanning and my name for it and I don't have. I got a number of GONNA. Yeah. Some I wish. I know I think it's on everyone's wishlist because anytime they pop up on Ebay, they're they're gone or they sell for some ridiculous amount of money. But yeah those are those are pretty cool. Those have interesting geometry to it's almost like two big. You know. Yeah there there are some draw I think What is it? The Bowl David Fisher the does all the polls. He uses some double double double drawn is where they're like a knife. Yeah Oh. You're really really paying attention though your hand angle than as you're driving through because you could gouge it or you could lift her. Yeah. So so I think those are kind of interesting too but I've never I've never played one with one but you heard him mention that you know some of his stuff when he's doing stuff with bowls using this knife-edge draw knife. So interesting. Yeah. Yeah. That's yeah. Talk about you know Curtis talking about you know a lot of knowledge that's been lost I. think There's a lot of knowledge and some of those tools that have been lost so most. Yeah. But anyways, West that has something like that. To some I can't remember his name but He makes I have an ads from him and I can't remember what the is shop called but he makes a funky. Funky draw knife that almost looks like that like a blade so Yeah. Yeah and I think a lot of this stuff was like used in coop rain and all of those lost arts. was there but anyway, but moving on so who has influenced you the most we have an answer that question. You. Definitely have it's it's certainly. Curtis began in, you know he? The, it's not only kind of what he's doing I think you know I, love the chair making process and I love you know I think in this is not a knock on on anyone's chairs by any means but I I just think curtis his chairs or just the most beautiful chairs ever and So he's definitely influenced me in that way in in what I wanna do but there's almost kind of I kind of found him at a time where I was looking to do something different in my life and kind of shaped my life differently, and you know here's this guy on the Internet who's kind of done it. You know he's living this life that simpler that's a bit quieter. And so that really resonated with a not not that there's some philosophy behind it but kind of the ideas the wise he's doing things that really resonate there. Have you listened to a curtis, Kinda talk about his life. There was a podcast a few years ago. That interviewed him and he kinda got on with you know a lot of the stuff that he did when he was younger and his kind of yeah. There's a lot philosophy behind. Curtis. Finn. There's there's much. There's so much there. Yeah. Look into I've heard a couple of his interviews the I heard the the fine woodworking. That's what kind of really sold me I. Was Listening to to the you know why he's doing things and I think it was a fine woodworking interview he did and he talked about contentment. Like hot. You know that that I d just you get up and you go down to the shopping and you just work and you just do what's in front of you and I. You know I just that that it's with me I I, WanNa simple life, and and I like I like the quiet. You know like the same thing this by a shop and you can hear everything going on around you and and here my kids and I. So yeah, he's. He's definitely been a big influence in woodworking and in my life in general I think. As it kind of articulated a lot of the things I was thinking in the things. I was feeling well, if I can find it interview. All I'll I'll send you a note on it as a few years. But yeah, it was it was It was pretty cool. It's pretty cool. Awesome and there's nothing like that sound of hand tools in quiet shop just. Zipping away. Love it. Yeah No, it's. It's well. You. Know I think there's It's something else to you know. Like a couple of years ago was funny. We is in middle of winter and You know there's a thunderstorm going on. So my my middle son comes out into the shop and fitting spindles into this chair comes out into the shop and he plops down in the chair next to me and he proceeds to tell the story and Oh daddy this that blah, blah the other thing and I I don't even remember what the story was about, but he clearly was was was scared scared of thunder but I just thought like man you know if I'd had a normal shop or even you know if I was on another a different job or whatever you know there'd be like in the shop right? If it was a table saw as a joint or something I couldn't have had that experience with him because I. I may not want him in the shoprite at that moment as I'm running a plane or something, but because it was the simple quiet process. Just. Shaving away on would we're able to have that that real nice moment where he can just come in sit down and tell me what's on his mind you know so and I want a lot of that in my life that kind of experience. Oh, for sure. So so that being said next question what has been your biggest stumbling block. Well It's it's a number of things. And, their ongoing by no means are these. Past tense. You know they're still they're still present. One of them was is is materials. Finding good materials is is a challenge At least if I'm trying to source it locally getting it from from alien and getting dried stuff either at the hardwood store or from back east, that's making things a lot a lot more easy But if I want to get stuff around here, which I still do I'll still go out if somebody sends me a photo of a real Nice pecan or a Nice Bourcher Sycamore or something I'll I'll go get it but finding greenwood to work with a draw knife is just really difficult out So that's that's definitely John, and then I'd say the other thing is is customers. Buy Expensive chairs. That's been a real to there's. There's a lot of it is I think people kind of don't really know I'm out here. Nobody really knows that I'm doing this and there's also this. There's kind of this gap in a nobody out here on the west coast it seems like knows what a Windsor chairs and I was one of them at one point I had no no. If you showed me the shape or the silhouette of a of a Bobak or something. Yeah. I could tell you. Oh Yeah I've seen that before but nobody really knows what Windsor is so. You know. So it's yeah. I'd I'd say that it's it's definitely finding customers and finding materials have been the biggest hurdles for sure but I think they're both out there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You just need to find that perfect interior designer that loves wins. Cheers designer to the storage? Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Well, you know I think there's also i. think there's a bit of a different aesthetic appreciation out here to you know people really like it's at least what I'm inferring from, you know instagram and and what people seem to be buying. There's people really enjoy like a mid century modern and contemporary style things So you know that might be a factor in it as well. Maybe people don't You know whereas back East right there's at least from what I understand. There's Windsor chairs everywhere and Windsor chairs. In their home and Yeah. But I mean, you can make the windsors more contemporary I mean obviously late. Curtis it says. I think it's I think it's getting that. Yeah. It's. It's like getting customer base. It's Gettin someone that says, Hey, I want something unique. Right, and yeah, the rocking chair I sit in sometimes is definitely a department store purchase some in the last half century the seat is a solid two inches thick the back of it has bent. Bowed little things that actually spin in their position though when you sit down, you can actually shift. I wouldn't say this is a fine Windsor chairs anything. But it has grooved from someone rubbing their hands on it so much that it actually wore away and from what I understand that it was my wife's grandmother. That used to sit in this chair, but it's it has it has history, but it's not well done at all and say that the the arm which is a separate piece is almost two by four. Maybe, two by three, it's so thick and boxy, and just has a slight curve on the front end of it. It's it's anyway yeah. There's better things and you make them like that's the this isn't it? It's it's an interesting. Thing like you know California Midwest who knows where it is, but you know somewhere there's a customer some way. Yeah Oh. Yeah. I think they're out there for sure. There's you know Y- just to just need to be able to get out there and show chairs double. Have the best selling point of a windsor chairs have a seat. Restraint yeah. Sure and she can get him. Then yeah you can get some customers that's for sure but. I think there's some potential out there I. Mean Come on you're the only guy building winter. California, they're only. There are not I. Think there is I. Think the certainly a tremendous amount of potential for offer chairs You know I mean like I mean I've. Encountered many of them at the fairs and stuff already in and I think you know well and part. So kind of what I was going to do before the whole covert thing was was asked I was going to try to start up in I have some friends in Seattle, and so I thought I'd just do like a West Coast tour and started a fair in Seattle work my way down to Portland and then come through California and go all the way down to southern California and just hit little fairs and things all along the way and just try to let people know, hey, there's this guy out here doing this stuff so. but yeah well. You months. It'll be something you can do 'cause. Yeah. Sounds like a good. That sounds like a great actually. Yeah. Especially now that you have some inventory built up, it's going to be demonstrate. Yeah exactly. Because yeah not many people see a winter highchair. So yeah. Right cool. Well, the process of it to you know shaving down spindles or whatever it may be in the show that really people really enjoy that especially kids but. They love to watch. You do that in that that sucks sucks. Lots of people in and just stand there and watch it, and then every once in a while, somebody will pop up with a question or whatever. The. Funniest. Sometimes, I get this a couple of times this has happened. I'll I'll be sitting there shaving on something and then a guy comes up and stands there and he's just watching just watching and next thing you know he goes what are you doing man I'm like, Oh, I'm just shaving away some chair parts. Will for what? Well for these chairs what chairs you know all these chairs around you right here and You make these and like yeah. I thought to your some guy. Shaven would selling used chairs. No I make these. Oh that's classic. Oh, yeah. Some people can't put two and two together but anyway. With that. So how has the Internet influence your work? Well, I probably, I wouldn't say that I would not be doing this if it weren't for the Internet but you know I found Curtis through the Internet. It's definitely that and then I didn't do I have this kind of love hate relationship I guess you could say with social media. We had. Yeah, right. Right. I was real has to do instagram for a long for for a while and then you know everybody says you know it's it's where people are at and so you need to get instagram. Okay. I'll get an instagram and Yeah and the the coolest thing about the instagram like you're saying earlier that you find, you find all these people around doing all sorts of amazing things. You know people not in Australia and Britain make and windsors and all sorts of different greenwood things and and so it's it's been really neat to be able to see what other people are doing and and kind of bounce. Off those things too like, oh, that's a cool way. They did that I wonder if I could you know incorporate that or tweak it a little bit or something. So Internet, you haven't been good for that. I think that's great because you know man everyone's Sharon techniques now on Instagram, which is absolutely fantastic. I mean from you know flat worked chair making two to whatever but people are out there sharing their stuff edited agree I. Don't think they would but you know you can make these quick little videos or you know picture montages and just like, Hey, here's how I do this not saying that's the best way to do it but here's. You know. So and it's fantastic I've got a lot of Hinson and. And inspiration from that kind of stuff. So. Anyway with that. Sad. So working folks find you on the interwebs Jason so you can find me on instagram at gallic dot J. at G. A. L. L. A.. G.. Dot J. and then my website following the fibers dot com. And Sean what about yourself? All I am Shawn W. Seventy eight on most social media's a matter how about you kyle and you could always find at Barton dot com on Instagram, the only social media platform that matters and so with that, that just about wraps it up for this show. So if you haven't already please subscribe to the show, the Pod catcher of your choice, just search for the modern woodworkers association. Then you'll never miss any exciting episodes and while you're there, please leave a review. Thanks for listening. You can follow us on twitter at and move away underscore national on instagram at. Underscore podcast or like us on. FACEBOOK at. The end of UA, the thing you can do though is tell a friend word of mouth goes a long way and sharing our discussion.

Curtis instagram California Jason Gallagher Windsor Barton Sean Nielsen Modern Woodworkers Association Texas Seoul Ebay FACEBOOK twitter Lee Nilsson Salama Galbraith Nelson Bailey
Virtual Roundtable: Scotland's Place in the World: Brexit and Pandemic Recovery

CFR On the Record

1:00:28 hr | 1 year ago

Virtual Roundtable: Scotland's Place in the World: Brexit and Pandemic Recovery

"Thank you very much. Hello, everyone I'm David Scheffer a visiting senior fellow on international law at the Council on Foreign Relations. And, I've been a long time student of Scottish devolution and aspirations for independence from the United Kingdom. We have the privilege today of being joined by Michael Russell. WHO has cabinet secretary for the Constitution Europe and external affairs of the Scottish government and he is a constituency member of the Scottish Parliament representing argyle good. He was raised in Troon and our Shar and educated at Edinburgh University. and has lived in Argyll for over twenty years. Mr Russell was previously minister for environment from two thousand seven until two thousand nine. And then served as minister for Culture External, affairs, and the Constitution before moving to the role of cabinet secretary for Education which he held until twenty fourteen. He was appointed minister for UK negotiations on Scotland's place in Europe in September two thousand sixteen. I can attest confidently that Mr Russell is a close confidante of Scottish first, Minister Nicholas Sturgeon. And after her, he is the most informed and articulate spokesman on issues of devolution and independence in the Scottish government. He has spoken often of the hazards of Brexit. Of Scotland's determination to remain in the European Union. And up the inevitability of Scottish independence, if Westminster continues down a destructive path of its own separation from Europe. A significant majority of Scots have repeatedly expressed their desire to remain in the European. Union. While the independence referendum of September, two thousand, fourteen failed to achieve a majority vote. In part because of the UK government's position at the time to remain in the European Union. There is a majority of Scots for independence. All of the polls reporting in recent months. Thus the aspirations for independence remained very much live while the Scottish government prioritises management of the covid nineteen pandemic. So it's a bit complicated. Mr Russell and I will engage in discussion for thirty minutes, and then I will open up the floor for questions. Please feel free at anytime to raise your hand. And I'll see those hands stack up and all began calling on individuals at the thirty minute mark. So let's begin Mr Russell. Tremendous pleasure to to have you today at the Council on Foreign Relations. I want to start with this sort of cosmic question. The Scots have a long history of division and union with the rest of the United Kingdom. Which includes England Wales? Northern Ireland. For those our audience, who may not be familiar in detail with Scottish history and politics. Can you briefly tell us what it means to be Scottish particularly being Scott living and working in Scotland. The European Union. During the turbulent politics of the United Kingdom end of the world, today. How committed is Scotland to remaining in the European, union? And why? I could speak to the mix our topic and not completed, but I'm. Just could a vitamin surprising David Kotei Cecil Rhodes, who said that to be English was to win the first prize in the lottery of life I'm Scott don't feel that way. I think that Scottish just got a few with the world is is much more modest, much more inclusive, and the reason we regard membership of the is absolutely central is because we shared European values, and those values of cooperation we share the view of the world is held Europe, and we find it increasingly difficult to reconcile that with not the plane people having lived this Chesterton called him, but the English government and the way in which it operates and in order to be a normal nation. Simple normality in order to be a normal nation, be necessary if it's called them to be independent within the EU it is not normal to be in the type of constitutional setting. We are presently where a substantial number of the because we need to exercise. Are, not available to us, and it is I think we have to see this through two principals now. The world has changed enormously the last three or four months, and those two prisons, Brexit and the. Vote of the UK, but not coming to leave the skull did not vote to leave. The Union is being forced to do so and the COVID. Pandak and the COVID pandemic particularly has I. Think continues to change views. Every individual death is to tragedy, and I offer my condolences to those people in the united. States have gone through such terrible times as we've all consumers times, but we have to come to some conclusions of those and way. We want to go next while the future will look like. There's a tremendous book and she originates in America. John is two thousand five hundred bucks on the great influence that which celebrates the success of America Medicine and coming of age of American Science, but writes about pandemics in general Napa can it comes to a conclusion the what makes the difference in terms of of coping with a condemn it can in governmental governments times is is quality leadership. At the contrition he comes to let because it's really important. The biggest problem who says coping with a pandemic lies in the relationship between governments and truth part of that relationship requires political leaders to understand the truce able to be able to handle truce. Those in authority must retain the public's trust. The Way to do that is to distort nothing to put the best face on nothing to try to manipulate no. And I have seen in handling the pandemic as the that in Scotland and increasing despair that that is not the view, this taken out of the places, and in no circumstances that pandemic the difficulties, the pandemic of added to the views that absurdly grown after brexit that we need to have more honest and truthful more values driven politics than we're able to have and the governments governance that is better for people, so we have to do a lot together, and we're not able to do that as a battle between us on the world, and it is removing barriers. That is really important. You? Repeatedly that devolution, the division settled the settlement under which Scotland Wales Northern Ireland presently live, which is only twenty years old. Has has not been able to bear the Waked of either brexit or. Because of demands upon the governments to serve their people has not been not been able to unsuccessfully as we should. Because we do not have the full powers to do so so a question where powerlines, how power is exercised A. Better lie and be better exercise in the future, and it is not in any sense, ethnic, or racial, or to do disliking people is was born in England. My mother was English. Her father's proudest boost was he pulled out the great wj grace cricketer. If you feel good. You? Guys have been bitter critic by then, but even so you know this is not about being against people, it is about a modern reaction to the world in which we live and the better way we could run things and Scotland if we were noted arm's length from it and removed from it, so that is a long way of saying it's normal to do it. We need to become normal because it will lead to better governance of better quality, a better deal for our citizens. and to have a better relationship north of the border. There's a very old sitting says independence for Scotland will get rid of these surly neighbor and certainly logic. Get a good neighbor. We need to go to being good neighbours with others. But not to be controlled by. Michael if as the US or the UK, government claims. Covert has proven. That the idea of independence is not viable for Scotland. Why hasn't the United Kingdom provided resources for Scotland to whether the pandemic I just don't see much news of stuff flowing from the north of fronts long from the south to the north during the covid pandemic. None of us are capable of meeting the cost of the pandemic without a extraordinary loosening of Boeing and the listening to the public finances. I mean that's true I mean the U. K. has an enormous land. Going north of three hundred billion, the president we do not have full borrowing that's going off one of the areas of restriction on powers, so we have not been able to borrow the amount we feel. We need to to to deal with it if you look at the scale of of the German response in we're not able to match that in terms of of the way in which we should to to spend in Scott now. The way in which finances you will know is complex, but it it relies upon essentially a thing called the bonnet formula for every time that is spent in in London for certain parts expenditure, a proportion of that comes to Scott. He did according to the proportion of the population which is about eight point sixty seven percent of the best month there's in a complicated balancing formula to do with public finances and taxation, because we do not have full taxation powers. I'm now. We have spent more than we received in that format on on bricks. There's no doubt upon that a equality we have. Brexit has cost US far more than any compensation. But remember part of the the issue of the Union is sleight of hand. If You keep reassuring people that everything is fine and you you're you're looking. After people they tend to believe it for a long period of time, and they tend to avoid a confrontation inevitably will come. We have spent more than being provided for. We are not able to borrow the money. We need to tackle the the property or the way that you want to do so. Therefore, we believe that the financing of this is far from proving that we we rely on and we continue to. Actually push the opposite that this gives eight justification for saying we could do better ourselves. Why don't you just go ahead and hold the referendum for independence? If you think the people of Scotland want independence, what what's what's the obstacle right now? This is where it become sound strange for people to believe we can't do that. In one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety seven, when the Labor government was elected in London and was committed to delusion, delusion had been attempted. Twenty years earlier had failed on a referendum, not because it was gone, voted against it because. Stipulation was put in that referendum that forty percent of those who went on the electoral would have to vote in favor of it it just it just failed, so there wasn't majority for dilution seventy nine, but it was not kites through within the Labour guns mated ninety seven with a commitment to delusion. Then they'll sticking point for for that from my own party, and it's going national debate about smaller party that stage. The sticking point was to be no glass ceiling on the arrangement in other words, if the people of Scotland some future date for that decided, they wanted to wander. Independence couldn't be forbidden to do so. And the compromise position. It was reached with the Labor. Government I was there when it was reached without examined in negotiations with them. Donald you're sector safe was then you're safe was called acid to hidden. The agreement was reached was that the Scottish parliament sought a referendum than both parliaments would vote have to vote for that? But there was no question, but that if the Scottish Parliament Oscar that it would get it, and that is a mechanism that operated in two thousand fourteen. The Scottish parliament asked to hold referendum. It was granted. The UK parliament voted with it. We have asked to hold another referendum and we refused on two occasions, the first time contemptuously by by by Prime Minister Theresa May, the second time in complicated, but equally preventative way by Barstow. So, we are not presently empowered to hold that referendum. Now that is in itself, is subject of debate in. Some. People say that the constitution would permit you to do so. We have never believed I've never believed that. That is the case because I negotiated equipment, it said something different. But we believe that as the Scottish Parliament Oxford and it should be prompted. That is not the present situation where the situation than we would be holding reverend the argument against it. We had one in two thousand fourteen. which you know is equal. The saying you have an election six years ago. You're not getting no one. Johnson has indeed said it should be a matter for a lifetime so in other words. You had an election when you were twenty. One getting another one until you're sixty. This is democratic houses, but it is impossible presently for us to do so without a concomitant vote by the Westminster Pond. which when you think about it very strange, because the UK was able to hold a vote to leave the EU, and he never said No. You can't do this and if it had suspect that have been a matter of outrage. Well so far, we've talked about both the pandemic and independence I want to bring the two. Issues together. What is the highest priority of the Scottish government? During this year of the pandemic is a to deal with the pandemic insure. The health of the Scottish people try to get more funding for the National Health Service restored the economy. Or is it to pursue the political agenda independence in the event brexit and how London handles the economic withdrawal from the European Union the sheer. Compels Scotland break perhaps as early as next year. Are these coterminous priorities. No, no, the party has been an absolute priority has been from the very first day We said we went into lockdown on the twenty-seven Watch and We said. The week before I wrote to Mike counterpart you government said we were suspending the what we were doing the independence referendum and it would not be a referendum this coming year. Because clearly we would be able to. There was no reciprocal gestures from the UK at there was an election UK, last December we recognize the Mandate Johnston. Government had to leave the. We have won the election out the park. Scott Forty eight to fifty nine seats. We believe they should recognize our mandate to hold that referendum. They've not done so even so could wasn't is a priority and remains a priority. We've taken out a very. Cautious approach there has been a four country approach and it did I. Think I think it did work to stop with. The lockdown was four country approach Wales Scotland, Northern Ireland and the UK. The UK England followed the same approach that has diverged somewhat in the loss two months. And certainly, we have taken a very much more cautious position particularly on easing lockdown. Offers. has been much criticized for an outside Scotland. In this guide, Scotland she enjoys vay substantial support for what she has done. And that means for example. Today is the day where. Pubs and restaurants can hope and that's for the first time. Since the twenty hundred March a hairdressers will are able to operate today I probably look as if I need one, but hairdressers alleged operate from today. Most of these things have happened earlier in in in in England health is a fully development, so we are able to operate that Posey ourselves and we have done, so we have even made slightly different decisions on the closing off the borders. The UK's list of border closures. We did not accept in its entirety. We looked at it again and there was one country. We took a different view which regrettably Spain. And we've not allowed visitors from Spain to come to Scotland without quarantine of the has. And we we based on the signs. We've invade driven by the science. We've set up our room. Scientific Advisory Structure and we will continue to be that, so we'd be cautious vacation so and it's not over. I would really stress this they they strongly. That of the pandemic has not come to an end at we've been. We've just had seven days with no deaths. Those. That's the first seven day period with no deaths since I think February beginning much, but we know this can come back the quick. If you figure this today in Israel for example way you see that one station down to ten infections day yesterday I think there were fourteen hundred you have. Have to be very cautious, so we will continue to go, and being cautious and first minister has said it is not her priority thing to move on the issue of independence, but I do think that things happening which will force our hand. I've said this to react to them. For example tomato, the UK government relations in a white paper on a number of topics, which is taking away from the Scottish Parliament. That will produce a reaction without tonight. Next year. You'll have elections for the Scottish Parliament this the Scottish. National Party has the majority of the seats in the Scottish Parliament. Is. The first minister waiting to see what the results could be from those elections without stronger majority, perhaps in the Scottish majority of parliament before she would take a a rather definitive step towards trying to seek an independence move after those elections. I don't think so we are. We have a very strong mandate in case. I mean you know we have one the loss I can't remember how many elections in Scotland. Lead we won the December election. We've we've won every election. I think since two thousand fourteen I I don't think that is the case. In cases that covert is is number. One priority was to to suppress eliminate the virus and to rebuild economy partner. Webinar in Brussels office this morning with a Bangle Benny Higgins recovery group, and you know, and we are very focused on issues of economic recovery and a green recover Amin Scotland has has world leading climate change legislation? We have focused on on the recovery. So all those things are priorities i. we need to do those, but the election is very significant next year because you know if the UK government continues in the way, it's going then you'll the anti delusion the anti. A constitutional change agenda that will be they visible, and that will be replaced in which a decision has to. Going to do is conclude this debate I mean I I think the probably constitutional debates is they goes uncertainty, and it is very important that we conclude this debate, so I would want to see next year's election. Taking steps to say, we have to conclude that we have the issue is to give calling to charts. Voted choice when we said in for example December last. Election last December this about choosing not to have brexit a choosing to be independent in the. We one forty fifty nine seats. It copy really more definitive than that. Does the rise of the Alliance for Independence Party recently, which is this more focused kind of laser beam focus on trying to achieve independence? Rather than the Scottish national parties current priority in governing on the pandemic and then. Ultimately the independence issue. Is the Alliance for independent say a realistic threat to the SNP. I. I'm scratching my head to think I've ever met. Anybody lives independent so to that extent. I have to say probably not. I understand the frustration. Frustration. I would like to conclude this matter. I think there's work for us to do. But you know if your government, the other negations as well and you've got to fulfill this. There is a sense in which. The. Debate has be about whether you can gang Scottish electro system if you can. Because we have a two votes system where you vote for constituency representative new vote for representative at they think if you only stood on the separate arty, you get more members whatever that type of gaming of electoral systems has been tried. It hasn't worked if you look at Germany. They have a very similar electoral system to our hours. It doesn't work there, so I'm not I'm not convinced that this is something that we should. We should entertain too much. Equally I welcome. Everybody in the causing independence is very broad church. You know the the SNP may be the cornerstone of it, but it is a very wide. Yes, Movement! Which embraces people all possible spectrum, so I'm not going to lose sleep over, but equally I've been a member of the MP for forty years. I think I'm getting too old to change so I'll stay what had got? Michael. Is there any way for you to describe for our audience to legal strategies one is. Is there sort of a general description of what your legal strategy would be for independence of Boris? Johnson continues to balk on section thirty opportunity for you. To have a referendum, and then secondly is there an emerging legal strategy under I suppose almost any scenario for? Scotland to try to maintain its ties with the European Union Single Market or otherwise. Yeah, we put forward. I mean it shouldn't be thought that we you'll be unwilling to compromise to be imaginative in this. In December two thousand sixteen, we published a paper I of cities of papers call Scotland's place in Europe, which we put forward a compromise, which would have seen a closer relationship with the Single Market, the customs union, and of course you want us be aware politics as in history, and not to have false memories. You'll at this. At that stage. There was no declaration from Visa Mail. UK Government went to the single market that was only really ruled the Lancaster House speech in January of two thousand seventeen, so we thought there was a suitable compromise one of the great tragedies of Brexit. Is! If Theresa may having become Prime Minister had sat down and brought the leader of the Labor Party Nichola Sturgeon Common Jones whose leader of Wales a stage at a Martin McGuinness and arlene from Northern Ireland, said look. How do we all get something? How do we all get a compromise here that the UK can leave the EU. That's the will of the people in England, but that we don't suffer great at those who didn't want this. Get something to that never happened. Theresa may style was was was not to listen, but talk so you would you would. You would just go to have a discussion whether Downing Street and and she would talk you for an hour about how you just weren't able to understand how good the deal was that she was talking, and that just didn't happen. So as a result of which you know we we left. It left a situation where. There is no compromise for the UK. They want to leave, and that is quite clear whether now on the the poorest possible terms because the word sovereignty has become this enormously important. And you only excise sovereignty according to the brexit extremists, who now in charge by cutting all mix, but by not having any substantive links at all and Sydney by not accepting at any of the rules that organization asked now you'll, our position is. We are willingly members of the EU we agree with the pooling of sovereignty. We think the putting himself into his people should go forward. It does not mean you any. The less software that is quite click I've been asked to fetch other French any the less over him for being in the jazz dancers. No, so the question is how we want to join Matt. He will never say to any kind of member. You're in Fine Dobler, but you know we observed the key for for over forty years ago, served all the rules members who come to join come. They often malone way back, and they have to change a lot of their systems to meet what other thirty-five chapters of accession we don't. We we we call. We've been doing it for forty years. So the legal strategy there is, we need to understand the chapters of accession very clearly and to be able to prove to you that we meet them all on the issue of accession, also a live issue with the French. In, recent months of Montenegro was was part of this, but there's no intention to exclude I mean we is essentially functioning as a new member. So of course legal strategy has helped me to go into that position. But connected with that his e US quite proper position that they would not accept a candidate member, and that's it went independent because it is a, it's an organization of Independent States so. You have to get yourself pasta for space, and that first basis dependence to independence the barriers holding a referendum. I don't believe WHO's getting majority in referendum I would happen now I think things have changed substantially from two thousand fourteen buyers, holding referendum and I. Think the only the two ways you can go by the for that. The first way is to challenge that in court and I think that is the most likely outcome I mean. It isn't that I think if you look at the. The way in which Scotland ex passed in one, thousand, nine, hundred nine, there was no intention that the party to hold the referendum would would be withheld for political reasons, and they're are also mechanisms by which you can take a bill to the Supreme Court and Judge there, so you? You will have to follow illegal route. I think to get to a referendum or a purely political. And you might want to. Think of Cornell Young. No matter has the right to call. Lachey the nation. It's the people of Scotland say they want a referendum. If the people are going to save, we wish to vote for this here Democrat. Democratic Democratic anybody who has democratic has to accept that that is the right that they have to do so and the longer you refuse to allow that to happen the less attic. Is the person doing. Let me. Ask One more question, and then we'll open it up. What is Scotland's place in the world today and under a prospective independent status and I asked that. In the context as well of your relationship with NATO which would be of interest to our American audience. We plan to membership of NATO. WHO WOULDN'T I mean? Has the the over the years I? Have always been strong wing when the wing that says this would be utter madness. Know Given both where we are geographically you know and also where politics are, so that would be our intention to be part of that alliance. I suppose you could describe it as a small. Moderate moderately left-of-center European nation I mean I. There's nothing. I'm not a fan of the here. Stance was like us. Down to. Nationalism in Scotland. You know we're a fairly orden. Make small. Talented the European nation resource-rich. Yeah, we have a very very. Rich set of natural resources they will educated with a according to the best educated company country in Europe We have assets to into the table, but we. We're small European nation. That's what we are and that's how we would operate in the world. Has More than half the members know just under eleven of. Twenty seven of the same size or smaller than we are. Rather, meeting almost exactly halfway in the table of independent nations in terms of size. So, there's exceptional that Scott. Ill where we we don't claim to exceptional, but we do want to be normal to go back to that point. Thanks so much, Michael That's been so helpful I want to open it up to questions now and I see some hands popping up and I'd like to start I think the first one that popped up was ambassador Peter Galbraith Peter. Isn't gentleman reminder to ask a question. Please click on the race hand icon on your zoom window. When you're called on, please accept the anew now prompt than proceed with your name and affiliation followed by your question. Hello. Can you hear me? Can you hear him? Yes yes. I I want to express my appreciation for this program. Since my ancestors left Cronyn in the highland clearances and my grandfather, who was in Canada. Was All Scotch as the Scottish community were called there, and he would be amazed and thrilled at the thought that Scotland might be independent. As, David knows I've spent much of my career in countries. In fact that we're breaking outburst, sparring independence Croatia the first embassador, they are, but also East Timor's separated and more recently. I've spent a lot of time in in Kurdistan. And one thing that strikes me. Is that. The power for independence is where you have a a separate identity, often ethnic a where they feel unfairly treated by the by the majority by the dominant group and I wonder whether in the case of Scotland. Whether this sense of unfairness at this stage overpowers the economic argument that Scotland really needs to be part of England that. United, Kingdom that it receives a large amounts of funds. And the second question I have very briefly. Is that when you look at how other countries have become independent When the crawl creches or the Slovenes held their referendum, they didn't ask Belgrade for permission. They went ahead and did it Would you consider holding a referendum? If in fact, Westminster turned to down or you lose the court case? Questions first of all credit this in my constituency so I. I am the representative for credit, so you can, you can come and see me constituency surgery, and I'd be binding to to give you an explanation. Then thanksgiving your questions good questions. Can I just can I just challenge your view that in some way we are? We are dependent upon money coming from the border. That is not the case this is. This is an area of of some contention. I have to say between economists and economists. Contend of you know what I mean. I tend to stand to one side until the dust to settle, but the reality of the situation is you can send a take an analysis of of Scottish fiscal floods and say that substantial resources that goes the other way and indeed what can ask oneself you? An interesting question Bono, who benefits, and if it was no fiscal benefit to the UK to have Scotland as part of why are they trying so hard to avoid independence so i? I think that the premise needs to be examined as always premises do in terms of of the history of I'd say. Because it's not but if you look at the history for example of the British rash, and you look work that's been done on that. In recent years about the position of India a prior to the empire. Then you begin to see some very interesting things so I wouldn't accept that and therefore I don't accept that in a sense the. Feeling of grievances is overcoming the Finance I. Don't I don't feel as substantial feeling of grievance I think the system doesn't work but I in that sense I said he blamed. The politicians are operating, but I don't feel oppressed in that way I'm the biographer them when a ewing who was a great SNP. A Lot. Big SNP figure. One of the first MP's and a standing EP and she tells the story of she was on the low mate convention in the EU and she tells the story of. Meeting Robert Mugabe. WHO said the problem with? Scotland independence is you're not oppressed. I don't think that is the case I think. We have a modern case for independence and one in which is Alex. someone has often said Yup we. None of us have suffered so much nosebleed in the because independence and is a peaceful and democratic movement. Intensive of permission the big issue here is not permission but recognition. I talked about the way in which the you would find an application for membership. I think to find. It would take some time as as these things. But recognition, Maguire's a constitutional route to independents, and you can see with the issue of Catalonia. The the lack of a constitutional is A. To recognition so I am cautious about taking any loot. The does not have constitutionality at its heart, and this is a longer process, but it is one I think has to be gone through, and therefore I do not envisage circumstances in which we would say, you'll be going to break. What is the constitution? What we need to do is to make sure the Constitution does not tempt to break people and to make sure that it is. It is not a barrier to the normal process of of a nation saying we want to follow a different path. And Mike Michael. Can I just follow up on that and ask is it is one of the strongest legal points that you might contemplate the one that you made earlier namely that we're at the Scottish Parliament. Itself is requesting the referendum. That somehow. Has. A has a significant weight. With respect to the UK parliament agreeing to that. It should have I. Mean if you have a structure which you have four parliaments operating. And one of those regards itself as sovereign marriage, the UK. Regardless itself. That medieval concept, but it still does. That's just isn't one we believe is stable, and neither actually do the Welsh and Wales is an interesting and. The Labor government. Not a nationalist government, and yet they're peasant, first minister, mock drake foot, who was my counterpart in dealing with Brexit UK before he became first minister has argued the concept of sovereignty needs to be revisited and the UK, the concept of sovereignty should be shared sovereignty, and it should willingly sheds. Different can be withdrawn just as the you that you can choose not to share softening, and in no circumstances in Scotland would say we wish to withdraw that. Takes six. Did somebody else's back? at and that's the modernization of the constitution which the UK needs to have. But Wales Scotland and Northern Ireland example. All voted against They really. That it didn't matter because they can be overruled and that is a difficulty. Let me. Ask Now Paul. Shared of the Kennedy School at Harvard. Thanks very much I'd like to ask about the currency that Scotland would have or aspire to have if it gained independence from the UK and tried to rejoin the EU and what kind of monetary arrangements Scotland would aspire to have with the way in the interim and goes asking this question unmindful. The euro is the currency of the EU and UK had a derogation from ever adopting the euro, but a rejoining Scotland presumably would not have that derogation automatically at least. But there is no obligation I mean this is this is this is an interesting issue as you clearly know because it's been a controversial issue in the first referendum, and we'll be subsequent referendum at there is no obligation upon. member-state, joining to to to to take on the euro this next vacation, but there is a process to go through an example. Sweden did not going through it. And did not take the euro and is not a member of the area I'm not gonNA. Give you a definitive answer on this one. Because at the moment I do, somebody will jump on it somewhere else and say this is what this is why you did it. It rather strangely the issue of whether or not Scotland can have its own currency could continue to use sterling in a sort of sterling area or should go to the euro. is a mattress huge debate within Scotland by the Anti Independence forces all of which seem to end up with the view that Scotland cannot make any choices about its own times uniquely in the World Scotland would have to end up with cody shells or something, because it just couldn't have a currency, and what we've said it cautiously, and we are conscious. This is as if we. We approach a second referendum as we approach is second buffalo. We'll lay out the options that have and we talked about whether there's options should include the continuation temporarily of starting area with a number of tests that were applied before we moved to our own kind of Some people have argued that Europe would be a suitable currency I. I think there's been such A. Tabloid Press. Attack upon the euro for years and one of the problems with Brexit is something got up this essentially by the tabloid press. There's been such a hero for years. It's very difficult to a rational conversation, but whether euro would be the right option as well so. I'm going to disappoint disappointed by not giving you a definitive answer. I am GonNa say there is and will have to. Answer but it's one which I think as as A. As a an aspirin country we should only go to when we already with to people to have that debate. At the present moment that debate would be. Nightmarish because it would be seen as a lightning conductor for everything else. Thanks. I think the next person on my list. Is honey finale? Thank you very much. Interesting discussion and I'm not. Familiar with the politics of Scotland UK but I had looked at the. Economics of countries have broken up starting with B. Sort of modern times of India. Up And the. Eddie Consultants. And while they have been a few exceptions, maybe about forty percent. The majority of countries that breakup an tend to do worse. Than they would have done and a A. Bit Union. and. Out of that I think is obvious. For obvious reasons, but another part is what Because of economists called externalities thinks that you don't own for, and they interact with other things. So. You know this is history with importers is looking forward and It's fully understandable the emotional. And other forces that drive that. But with covid Brian Team, and and the expectations, some kind of a new normal will changes in the world economy trade value of natural resources and other things that empty depend on for vic fall. I wonder if you have that kind of finances, and whether or not the herbage speculation that changes in. You'll brave after after covid nineteen. Will continue to be an a break-up of Scotland from. Well I mean I'd refer you to a paper. We published last month's on the expectations. We have a both in covid recession at the bricks recession whereas the rest of Europe will be suffering severely from brexit session. They will have the advantage of what appears to be in this week's. US will will confirm it. Pretty exceptional. Response Somebody you twenty seven in terms of the the NF agreements are going to reach that likely to reach with leadership Germany. Actually making sure they do each. They will not half a brexit recession. So the UK will be double dipping. I in its approach, and that's one of the reasons we believe. Brexit daily input was object to postpone negotiations by up to two years, which the UK refused to do a, and that would have been helpful, so our view is as part of the UK the economic prospects of the poor. And will continue to be poor for longer, and we'll be worse than we would otherwise have it firmly covid recession I. Financial Times estimated that the recession would be the worst for the UK since seventeen o nine I have no personal experience most of that. But if that is the case then I think we've got problems there. Seconds should consider. Here is the nature of Scotland and is it is just now. It's actually which we country I mean you just you have to step back a little and look at it. You know it has a small population which is will educate, it has A. Substantial amount of natural resources, both of the Twentieth Century and of the twenty first century. And it has a pretty considerable reputation and ability experts. You know the number. One Food Export UK risky of course is to export, but actually Scotland's export a offering is very wide-ranging, so there's no reason why Scotland should not flesh the fact that it isn't fushing now might say something about how its economy is managed on. Its economy is managed by the U K and you know the. Look Cutler in the light of other experiences of economists being managed at a distance and say that actually also maybe a considerable issue. The factory so my expectation. Is that choosing independence now? Will I don't think any of us can avoid the Kobe recession but I think it will be that we would avoid the brexit recession It would also be a potential. The economy and the Scottish people were fulfilled. Our recovery plan leans heavily on the issue of natural capital. And I think if you look at new natural capital and the work. We're doing his well-being economy I think you can see considerable advantages, so I'm not pessimistic. And I think are occasions which companies countries that that go their own way. Suffered from it, it's. People as Personal relationships if if these things change and people can flash. I would expect us to flourish. Thank, you the next individual is MS Julia Moore. We can't hear you quite yet. Okay? I've hit hundred. Got It. Right and I apologize if this question has already been asked, are was the issue was addressed earlier because as you can see I'm technologically challenged by this zoom technology. But let's assume that you are Scott. Exit happens constitutionally. As you as you hope, and as you describe, what makes you believe that Scotland? Could overcome the tremendous obstacles to getting forget the euro getting membership into the e U N into NATO. Well, my personal conversations convince stated that as a case to be honest. I spend a lot of time talking to people. It seems to me that the. Enthusiasm for having a small. You highly educated wealthy. And sharing European values country as a member of the opinion is likely to be to be blocked to be loved irresistible Is What we've done nobody there's no queue. Nobody stands before after anybody else. You have to qualify, but you know. I think it would require quite loving imagination. Say That Scotland being has it is does not. Answer, maybe the people I talk to regularly, and all of the all of the countries believes that Scotland will be at a suitable candidate member for the EU and will be accepted as such an idiot. It would be very stringent. It was this was of course. An argument that UK puts doing two thousand fourteen minutes, Animus David referred to earlier. I was independent. Scotland would not be a member of the EU now David. Cameron has UK Prime Minister. Cold favors to get the few people need to say that and Scotland was affected by it because for many Scots, being in the you is extremely important streaming. But, I have absolutely no debts from from my experience who I talked to from what they are saying, because many your configure saying this entirely clearly, Scotland would be a good fit for the EU and NATO I. think that's also the case I. Mean I can't imagine NATO wants to say none of that's not suitable. To have NATO membership and if you look at. Our geographic position I think that would be a strange decision to reach an quixotic as. The whatever else you might call Nathan Sante so. I think in all those circumstances that will take place. It will take the the procedure of Michigan and we'll take the before that procedure of application, but what is different about by I would fail to understand. You know I might add Michael that in answer to Mrs Moore's Question I certainly recognized when I was in the quarters twenty fourteen. In Brussels skepticism because of exactly that point that you raise that. They want it to simply maintain the United Kingdom as full errant nation powerful one within the European Union. However, of course, because of Brexit I, I had to. With, SURPRI-, it well not surprised, but of great interest last summer when the First Minister Nicholas. Sturgeon visited Brussels and gave some speeches there. She, was heated almost by the European Commission, and the European Union officials I mean it was a. it was a very very different. reception for Scotland. One very very supportive understanding that Scotland has a tremendous amount to contribute to the European Union so the tied. As far as I could see, had completely turned by last summer. I attest to that. In thousand fourteen active and recent years have been. Talking to people. By, the former president of the connection, yeah and Florida a Belgian Prime Minister Motoman from of separatism description. Has Been on the record. Saying Scotland applies and Scotland qualifies which it does will be. At and. Asking people to be in the attic about it, but that's the fact. We qualify, and we do qualify and reserve the game which we have done. Then we will be a member and that's what we would want to do. Let me turn now to Frank Klotz. Who is retired from the US Air Force. Thank you very much for an excellent presentation I'd like to follow up with. Dates, questions and your answers related to NATO. For many years now a NATO leaders have endorsed the importance of the UK's Independent. Turn Force to NATO defense fat. The UK independent nuclear dreamt depends of course on space in Fastlane. The MP's position in two thousand fourteen to the referendum as I recall. was that continued presence of nuclear weapons of Scotland. was was not to happen. has that changed sense and if not I, would you see the UK's concern and ultimately NATO's concern about the future of UK, nuclear forces things off. Let, let's not the OB which is you know? Small Country of five million people got to possess nuclear weapons, and you know so you know Scotland has no interest in so doing. What would that foot? Nash. Oppositions not changed on Faslane. Invasive central majority in Scotland. Who Do not wish to see nuclear weapons on Scottish style, and I am one of those people I mean know we may take a different view of these matters when I am sitting as the crow flies. You know about. Fifteen miles from. Across this lovely lock outside and I definitely think I would feel. Better if that was not happening. We, said you in two thousand fourteen referendum very clear. We recognize that doesn't happen overnight. And therefore there would have to be. Appeared in which was negotiated into place, but we would expect the negotiate the Scotland having nuclear weapons, not now that is a matter of course which would have to be discussed with the UK, and with NATO but that would be our position. Yes, no could be government in Scotland the one that I would favor, but I think broadly, and Scotland's a pretty wide agreement upon that. You in the UK. The Labor Party has always. Snyder state continues tarrant. That is not true of the Labor Party in Scotland launch so I think that would be like the almost under any sense. We we believe in strong eventual courses. We talked about huggers. Might be ranged in an independent Scotland and we would follow that. We wish to be part of NATO that one. We do not wish to see nuclear since called. Michael is there any particular opposition in Scotland to out of theater operations by NATO in other words, if you become an independent nation and join NATO, would we see Scottish soldiers in a future type of Afghanistan situation with other NATO soldiers? Is there any point of view on that? I. The to which we expressed. Concern? What is we need to sanctions? As being extremely important NATO and umbrella big important so as a member, we would be members obligations. And if And we felt was up Gatien, fitted with our own view of the world, and and we also believe in the European a defense model than we'd go along with that also interested in the way, which Ireland for example has confidential place for in terms of UN peacekeeping, and we do think there's a role for Scotland in in that, we have day, efficient and effective contribution from our own forces regiments, and so they soldiers, and we thought we would want to see that within that context, but you know we are committed to NATO membership were committed to working with. European defense, the defense issues committed you in terms of UN action too, so we wouldn't be standing back, but equally would be doing it from ASTA, might. Want to entertain more questions, so I'll keep my eye on the roster here, but I actually have to I. Can Bitch at you in the meantime? Is. Did we start? Did you just have a a session? A special session of the Scottish Parliament, and if so, why and was it all virtual end? What was the big deal? Why did everyone have to get called back in? July, well, you know we. We have a work ethic. Unfortunately. Epidemic nobody believes that we should be a way for substantial periods of time. We are technically on recess, but we've. We've match. We're meeting. Three weekly cycles because the First Minister of the review our regulations. Takes three weeks, so she aggressive violent, and we deal with that and we do virtual question sessions because we believe that that you we should still be answerable to to the country to its representatives. We I quite lot. Virtually I mean in where I'm sitting in my. In my door study looking over a local. I've done a parliamentary statements from here I've answered questions in here appeared in front of parliamentary committees from here and brise by three hours by car different. Sue them for five occasions to do things. But we we, it's just not normal year, so are non. Patted would-be, we would end the end of June. We would start again at the beginning of September. We've finished at the end of June. We will start again on the eleventh of August when schools go back. Schools have been since the twenty third of well being off. Since the twentieth, a much scores go back on the August and we will go back then but. I will be in parliament. On the twenty thousand nine hundred thirty s this month, and I will be doing a statement of some sort before, so we're we keep ourselves busy. We believe in seventy people. But there was no particular crisis this month. Regarding London's negotiations on Brexit or anything well. Yeah I. Mean I think the reason? I got to give a statement before the thirtieth will be expecting. there will be a white paper new government. Tomorrow's as said on issues which we believe substantially undermined divorce settlement, so that will be part of it but you know the main issue is. An issue is making sure that we keep the Pompton people informed of that the first minister undertakes. Daily press conferences on Covid till now. They've been five days a week. I think that will change shortly. But we still do the televised people you know that is open to press question for lengthy periods of time. and you know we we're very. The Kutai gave you at impact recent and being honest with people is what we tried to follow, so we fight to make sure that people have all the information they need. I believe. Peter Galbraith has another question Peter. Thank you. and I wanted to just say I I was not being critical of of Scottish independence. When I was asking about the economic issue, it was the sense though that often in these circumstances where people feel they're in the case of Scotland dragged out quite what England did that. That can overcome economic issues and I also think point out that countries often do very well after independence. Obviously, the Baltic countries case in point of fact of Croatia Slovenia clearly better without Yugoslavia my question as a events in Ireland. Northern Ireland effect the Scottish situation. I think the polls show. That there there's a majority now for United Ireland, or at least very close There's a process. Perhaps you might explain for having a referendum there. You see that process going forward with Boris, Johnson. Government and I guess it would raise the question of if they are willing to do it in Ireland A. How could they say no to doing it in Scotland? Always accepted a special situation in Ireland is recovering from a federation of Civil. War Essentially. It is, it is not like Scotland and therefore we've always accepted. Special arrangements for another round have to be made in Rhode Island, and we've never dawn equivalences without, and wouldn't do so and is quite dangerous. Joy collinses, the as you well know between national movements in various places there everything is different but there are some interesting issues in in northern. Ireland and the special settlements within Brexit is a particularly important one. There is a special protocol in West role agreement the main. Northern Ireland will sit somewhere between you and the UK. It will have regulatory. Alignment with the EU and the border will therefore not be a border per se in terms of goods, and it will be treated in a special way. Our view is if that is possible for. It should have been possible got, and they should have been some special arrangements. Scotland and that was not reached. The question of of Irish reunification they different one at you know. There are two in a number of players in there I think the new t shock in a in Ireland. Martin has made it clear that he doesn't think the time is right for a border poll. And the poll you can be called lives with with the consent of both sides, but I don't think that's likely to happen immediately I think it's going to happen at some stage. But a lot of this is. The same issue and the issue is. BREXIT has precipitated. He'll change. That was underway in a cage Nolan. Voted Against Brexit to. The only part of the of the islands, so to speak. That got didn't get anything voted for its. Wheels voted for Brexit narrowly voted for Brexit England voted for Brexit Northern Ireland voted against it. Getting Special Status Scotland voted against it more than any of the Muslim nodded, and he's getting nothing, and the tensions created by Brexit have exacerbated. What was an ongoing process? You've got to look at the issues independence, not some modern phenomenon I mean this. This has been going on for well over a hundred years. The sub committee for this indication Scottish writes in the eighteen fifties eighteen sixties. Campaign for restoration the position advocate. The growing. Administrative devolution took place in the late nineteenth twentieth century, and there's a school that would argue that the was held us back where a number of events at which which? Renewed UK solidarity British Daddy to where wars the creation. Of the of the Health Service, and so on at, but the process has been going on i. mean you know I I mentioned earlier, my grandfather, my grandfather publishers in English publisher. I, think he he would be astonished. was a Scottish parliament because he died in the nineteen sixties, and it was a long way. Then I don't think any the majority of it, and you'll be astonished. Grandson was in a Scottish Parliament administered. Moist discussing this with distinguished American audience so the nightline this. Has Been a process underway. Annette process continues to be the way, and that is true in Ireland. As it is true in Wales and elsewhere at it is a question how those that process comes to a conclusion the thing we're not talking about. Thank you so much Michael? this has been a tremendous conversation about the past present and future of Scotland, and I deeply appreciated and the council on foreign, relations and all of our participants as well. You take good care of yourself. Stay healthy next to the lock there and. We'll see you and thank you very much. Thank you thank you? Thank you.

Scotland United Kingdom Scottish Parliament Scotland European Union Brexit Mike Michael Europe Scott Forty NATO England Scottish government Northern Ireland Wales Scotland Wales Northern Irelan United Kingdom UK Government representative Prime Minister Theresa May Minister Nicholas Sturgeon