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"pete palmer" Discussed on Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast

Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast

07:45 min | 1 year ago

"pete palmer" Discussed on Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast

"Our piece? So I guess like what a, what a thorny ethical question to put to me at ten 59 a.m. on Friday. Yep. So I guess I would say the following, which is that the way that I think about baseball record keeping, particularly baseball record keeping from prior eras, and it's not like Clemente's career happened so long ago, but I don't know, maybe I think about this differently than you do, but I imagine that the further back in time you go, the more wiggle room for mistake there might be in the record keeping of the game. So I don't know that I necessarily would need to correct this. I guess we also have to contend with the fact that, like in any career, any storied career, you know, there's probably a guy who is benefiting from a, for instance, a batted ball that was called a hit in his favor, but could have been deemed an error, right? And then it wouldn't have counted, and what often happens is that we don't have human tragedies intervene quite so precipitously so that you are done right at 3000, where you have wiggle room to sort of absorb that error. This is a, I'm talking to avoid answering the question. Is what I'm doing? 'cause I don't know what I would do with this. On the one hand, I don't know what historical value they're necessarily is to correcting it this way, but also it's not as if Roberto Clemente's legacy hinges on him being a 3000 hit hitter, right? His legacy in the game, both on the field and off is not, you know, it's not as if we only care about him because he has 3000 hits, and if it was 2999, we'd be like, oh, that schlub, right? His impact on baseball as both a sport played on the field and a cultural institution transcends his hit total pretty profoundly. So I don't think that correcting the record would really diminish his legacy in any way. And I am a fan of precision. I think that we should attribute we should accurately represent the stats that we have because they are an important part of our historical record beyond any individual player. So I don't know, but it also feels like kind of mean. Sorry to swear. You know, like I wonder if what questions I would ask of the writer who came to me with this to be like, but why? Why did you go? Do you have to? Looking for this. Why was this a thing? I mean, I suppose that we can attribute a more generous motive to the writer and say that they simply stumbled upon something like this. But also what archival evidence would you find that would make you confident that your conclusion around this is accurate? Right. Yeah, I don't know if you could find it in newspapers dot com. Maybe you looked at game logs from the Hall of Fame or something. There are some famous examples of records being corrected as you alluded to earlier. And there are some famous numbers that have changed and they're races that have ended up going the other way long after the fact. For instance, I think it was Pete Palmer discovered that he had had a game double counted. And so he had more hits than he should have. Right. And those hits were eventually taken away from his total and that also would have changed the outcome of the 1910 batting race. Would have won that instead of Taika. So there are examples like that and I think if you know about it, I think you have some obligation to change it, I suppose. I mean, first of all, just like as an editor, I guess your fiduciary duty to fan graphs of attracting an audience I think that people would read this article, there'd be a lot of interest in it. Not necessarily your number one consideration. But this would generate a lot of attention. It's newsworthy, I think. And also, as you were saying, I would probably encourage us to care a little less about these arbitrary round numbers. So, you know, I know that the 3000 hits, milestone means something historically, obviously, and it would be a bit of a bummer if you had to retroactively take someone like clementi out of that, especially because of the circumstances, and he's right on 3000 hits. And he ended up on 3000 hits. But look, as you said, it's not like he's any less great player or person. It's not even like he was just scuffling along to get to that last 3000 pit. Right. Some people have, and then he retired the day after. I mean, he was still an absolute star at that late date. Even though he was in his late 30s by that point, he was still a great hitter. There's no doubt that he would have gotten many more than 3000 hits. So just the fact that his life was cut short. I don't think that has to take away from his legacy as a player or anything. So just in the interest of accurate record keeping I mean, I'm not saying I would be thrilled to break this story look what I found so we can finally take a hit away from Roberto Clemente. I mean, I would not be overjoyed about that. But I think just in the interest of balancing the books and being intellectually honest and consistent about things, you know, you can't put your thumb on the scale or take your thumb off the scale if it should be there. Oh, I would be so nervous before that piece went up though. Oh my God. 'cause it's like, you know, you really. You really wanna thread the needle on that because you're right that people would want to read that story, but you wouldn't want to take delight in it. I don't know. It's just such a strange publish apologetically. Like, sorry, everyone. I don't want to do this. Yeah, hack Wilson is another one. His famous single season RBI record, that one he had an RBI taken away from him from that 1930 season. He went from one 91 to one 90 long after the fact after an extensive review and sometimes people have been hesitant to make these changes, but yeah, you know, we have a commitment to accuracy. So and also, I mean, I guess if you're taking a hit away from him, then you are saving some pitcher who allowed that hit in theory, maybe. I mean, assuming you have the double entry bookkeeping going on, then there's someone who has to have some cost on the other side. Yeah, I just, you know what I would do? You know what my approach to this would be bad 'cause it is like I think that we do get too fixated on these round numbers and I just spent time talking about how Clemente's legacy far exceeds the number of hits that he has. But I do think that this is the kind of thing that people take personally. He is so important to so many people. And the milestones are a part of that even if they aren't the most important part..

baseball Roberto Clemente Pete Palmer Clemente Taika Hall of Fame clementi hack Wilson