18 Episode results for "Pera"

ISSCR 2020 with Dr. Martin Pera

The Stem Cell Podcast

25:22 min | 6 months ago

ISSCR 2020 with Dr. Martin Pera

"This is the third in a series of three stem cell podcast episodes from pious as cr twenty twenty. This time talking. Dr martin everybody. We are dalen and a room. Welcome back to the stem cell. Podcast where we culture knowledge and stem cell research by talking to some of the brightest minds in the field. Hey everybody just a quick note about today's recording the interview with dr martin para from the twenty twenty. We did have some sound issues there. Some hiccups in the audio we apologize. We know it's annoying. We hope it doesn't detract from your experience. This is the third in our series of three is twenty twenty episodes. You all know by now that are ruined. I attended that virtual meeting it took place at the end of june. We're here today to talk to one of the researchers who presented at that meeting but for those who weren't able to attend you can catch up on everything. You missed by watching the daily videos that we released throughout the conference in which we summarize. Some of the hottest talks presented each day to watch visit stem cell. Podcasts dot com slash. Iss cr twenty twenty. Today we have dr martin para from jackson laboratories on the podcast to discuss the research presented during iss. Cr twenty twenty. He talked about the unique properties of a subset of human pluripotent stem cells. With high capacity for self renewal. We're gonna talk to him about that but before we get there. Take your human pluripotent stem cell cultures. Further with 'em teaser. Plus from stem cell technologies the most widely published medium for feeder free human es and apsl maintenance is now formulated with enhanced performance and versatility mt plus reduces medium acidosis for more stable cultures. All weekend long to learn more visit. Www dot stem cell dot com slash. M teaser plus all right guys for episode. Three of the twenty twenty interviews. We have with us. Dr martin para whose principal investigator at the jackson laboratories para two main areas of research using pluripotent stem cells. They look at extrinsic factors that regulate pluripotency lineage specification during early human development also interest genetic factors that influence regeneration repair in the central nervous system. Dr pera thank you very much for joining us today. Thank you so we'll get right into dr pera. Both dalen i attended your is cr. Talk discussing your recent paper which is focusing on a subset of human pluripotent stem cells with a high capacity for self renewal. And this is something. That's become a bit of a hot topic in our field. The idea that a even theoretically homogeneous population of cells. There's more homogeneity heterogeneity than we thought right so if all of our pluripotent stem cell cultures. Have these high self renewal capacity cells as a subset. The natural next question is how can we harness them to actually improve stability in differentiation potential over cultures. So tell us a little bit more about these special cells in our in our cell cultures. Sure we model got interested in heterogeneity and stem cells. Some years ago and over the years we've tried to dissect this using a range of different approaches. Biological lasts as matab. Lomax transcript dome makes you happy. Genetic approaches and it's clear that the subset of self renewing cells in human pluripotent stem cell cultures is a minority with some very special properties and in latest. Work we try to understand where that population mapped In terms of Primate embryonic development and it turns out it's closest to an early early post implantation state but as i say the population is minority. And so what we're trying to do now is to explore whether we can stabilize that state more because what you have at. The moment is a very dynamic situation where cells are beginning to be lineage prime beginning to head down a pathway towards differentiation. Probably going through a lot of epigenetics and we think things might be improved if we could further stabilize those cells at the top. So that's what we're working on now. So dr you know. Heterogeneity is to your and single. Cell genomics has really elevated in the head originating these cultures. But i feel like we've been observing heterogeneity and in some cases i guess ignoring it or kinda like sweeping it under the rug since the beginning. I mean you were among the first to derive human pluripotent stem cells. And i think you would agree from the beginning. We could see in self renewing conditions that there was a lot of heterogeneity just to look at it. So is there anything else like that that. We've been observing something that's been right in front of us that you think deserves or needs closer attention. Moving forward like the heterogeneity. Yeah i would say that Another thing we tend to overlook. Is that i think even during routine passage with relatively gentle techniques. There's an awful lot of cell death going on. One of the most informed of things we did in my lab was just to take some time. Lap time lapse images of cells immediately after passage. And you see some incredible things going on you see colonies moving around merging colonies just going extinct. And so what. What i would say is in that early early period. Just after you subculture the cells. There's an enormous amount of attrition. And i don't think we understand that adequately either doctor. You're an expert when it comes to all things potency and all things stem cell culture. But i wanted to ask you about toady potency to and this is of course a topic. That was covered. A little bit of the is cr in particular by janet. Rawson has been hunting. For toda potent stem cells that are equivalent to these to seize cells that exist after the first division zygote and of course toady potency means that these cells are gonna have the ability to give rise to the somatic and extra embryonic tissues to so the question. I have is pretty. Do you think we'll ever actually be able to isolate in. Maintain these so-called toady potent stem cells. And what obstacles do we have to overcome before we can make that happen. That's really the kind of sixty four thousand dollar question in the field. At the moment can we stabilize toady. Potency and there have been some very strong efforts. I'm sure most people will be aware of. But i don't think Anyone has nailed it just yet and the question is Mammalian element at this stage of the blast is clearly regulated. The cells can two different signals to do different things. It just depends on whether that very early state is something that can respond to external signals that will ultimately amplified and keep it in one place. And i'm a little. i'm. I'm a little bit agnostic about that. I'm not sure whether that's possible or not. Certainly people will. I suppose continued to screen a lot of conditions and perhaps small molecules etc to see using appropriate reporters to see if this state can be captured. But we have to remember that there may be a lot of synthetic states that can be captured. That may be a little bit different to. What's real. And i think janet ross point was really to say what we have to have pretty tough criteria to divine such sal and and let's be clear about what those criteria are so yeah just stay on the note of todi potency minority site to receive the momentum award at this year's i assess cr much desert in in my view is i think he deserves a lot of the credit for making germ cell derivation a reality from themselves. Something i think many assumed. At least i can speak for myself. I assumed it'd be on par with the challenge of amount of poetic stem cell generation. Which were still not quite there yet. Although exciting news at this year's meeting in that regard but minori was very cautious in his assessment of the clinical translation of that technology specifically and. I think it's for obvious reasons. We're talking about the germline here. And that deserves special attention and special scrutiny and extra care but speaking to other less fraught cell types or tissues. Do you think we're ready for prime time. What sets intense. That do you think. I mean it's been twenty years now over twenty years and i think that a lot of people predicted Near -cations and i think now we're suddenly really on the precipice of it but is it. I mean maybe there was that same expectation. Ten years fizzle. Do you think that we're actually now really on the cusp or do you think that we need to really Stall our enthusiasm and take care in. The vein of minority sites. Conservative view is dealing with assault type. That has some profound ethical issues associated with it in terms of an location to say nothing of complex of getting a cell safely through my up in genetic intact bashing with respect to some of the other applications. We we've heard about many trials going on now My own feeling about these trials. I was very pleased to hear my former colleague. Ben rubin off from israel discussing their progress with degeneration other groups are are making good progress in that area as well. my feeling. Is that many of these early stage. Trials probably won't lead to cures. They'll probably raise as many questions as they answer Concerning how stem cells what they actually do. What what their riveted do when they're put into a pathological environment and you know to what extent they they actually undertake functional replacement a missing cells but to me it's essential we're doing these clinical trials because otherwise we're never going to find out where the gaps are and what we need to do next so i'm very glad to see them proceeding ahead. I'm prepared a will percents. There will be setbacks are steps we have to take. If we're ultimately going to get to real cell replacement therapies so there's translational side of things was of course a big emphasis at icr. And as we mentioned dr saito received the war to at last year last week's sizes cr and you're of course the editor in chief of the official journal of the a cr which is stem cell reports. And of course over the years there has been an explosion in the number of stem cell centric journals but stem cell reports has remained pretty constant in terms of really quality basic and translational stem cell science. It's also open access which is of course the wave of the future when it comes to scientific publishing so as the editor in chief of stem cell reports. What's your vision for the future of this pretty foundational journal in our field. Well of course. I inherited journal from christine marie. Its founding editor. And i inherited a going concern if you will. Christine get did a great job. In terms of getting the enter colleagues did a great job in getting the journal off the ground. I think as we go forward we we really will see more applied and translational research. I'm hoping we're we're beginning to see that already. That can range from disease modeling and new approaches to drug screening functional. Genomics right through to clinical trials. But i think as i indicated whilst it's great to see these applications moving forward we've still got an awful lot to know about the basic biology of stem cells and how they behave and the basic biology of tissue repair and regenerate will continue to have a very strong effort to attract great basic sciences. Well room mentioned Your role there and we as scientists and you know in society we have the pleasure of straddling kinda shift in science communication and information. You know you're open access over there. There's also these pre print journals. I've heard some rumblings about there's this thing out there about call tweeter or something. I don't know it's a real world wind. What's your level of add up adoption of all these. Various modalities is it like The proliferation and application of tech and science you have to evolve or become extinct are do. Are you pretty traditional old school. In your communications. I followed pre print servers. I think they're a great place to see merging information. If i see a pet. I recently learned how to tweet the journal. Thought it would be a good idea if i did so so we try and go out of our way when we see an exciting reprint two to draw attention to it so i think these things are really valuable and i think they just helped to heighten awareness of what's going on in a very rapidly changing fields so we keep an eye on all that stuff and we try and keep up with it though i have to say it is challenging certainly challenging. But let's let's help dr parag at his twitter followers up. Its artan para jacks for all of you. Twitter's there and shifting gears a little bit dr perez at the jackson laboratories which is evidenced by your twitter. Handle and the jackson labs for most american. Biologists is known as a place where their mouth strains come from right. But it's way way more than that. It has such a storied history when it comes to human biomedical research in genetics. And actually i. Was there on vacation in bar. Harbor maine with my wife a couple of years ago and i made sure that we actually stopped by jackson. Labs just to kind of soak in the ara. And also. Because i'm a huge nerd who visits laboratories -cation. So you haven't been at the jackson labs for too long but what drew you there. And what makes it such a special place scientifically in your eyes. So that the particular reason i came to the jackson lab was a few years ago when i was working at melbourne university. A number of were talking about an initiative around traumatic brain injury so speaking to lot of neurologist neurosurgeons neuroscience is to tell you ration- if you look at to patients similar age similar health status similar brain lesion often you see that one obtains achieves the better functional recovery than the other and when i asked the courts about this they said well we don't really know much about it but we're very very interested in it because we're beginning to appreciate how recovery varies in how important that is the patient outcome so i got the idea. Well maybe i could use stem cell dish to model some of those recovery processes and unfinished and some of the genetics behind it. But i also cried to me that really there was only so far you could go without. You'd need to go to whole animal models. And that's whereafter conversations with nadia rosenthal. Who became. The scientific. Director of jackson was then one of my colleagues down in melbourne. I decided to move the lab appear and have a go at looking into that precisely. So we're using a combination of in vitro human functional genetic genetics along with mouse embryo stem cells. Which i would say greatly underrated source now those in combination and then through moving through to the in vivo situations so that's general idea of what do here the jack sets the. Jags now has a real emphasis on using mouse models to understand human disease to make the crossover between human genomics and mass genomics to build better models and There are also a taken a big push to exploit cellular resources in vitro resources as well. So it's kind of a great situation so this may be a little bit redundant here because you did a good job at answering that back question to completion but it goes back to this idea of the evolving role of the mouse. He said that malcolm brown stem cells are vastly underrated as a resource. So i think that's part of what you're getting to answer this question just to circle back. you know. The first bone marrow transplant the defers bone marrow. Transplants in mammals performed at jackson lab so arguably this is the fertile ground from which the entire stem cell field has grown But you know like a ruined said. It's also the world source for more than eight thousand strains of genetically define mice right so you just answered how they're trying to incorporate the disease understanding disease in humans and beecher mouse in vivo genetics. All this But also impart you think that your migration there someone who has a strong emphasis in human embryonic stem cells from human pluripotent stem cells. Either institutionally jackson or more broadly in the scientific community is part of an expansion kind of beyond our transcending mice as the preeminent model for addressing human disease. And i say this because at the isis cr as well as i that we're getting into all these compounds assembly organoids models where it seems like you know it's no longer. There's a lot of benefits to looking at it. There's in the physiological context of a living organism. but it seems like we're addressing questions that were beyond imagination even a few years ago. So i think the real future laze in lies in exploiting both and there's no question but that the in vitro models and and i've been an advocate of that from day one. I always saw that. One of the biggest. Contributions of blurring bucknell stem cells would not be too transplantation medicine but in their uses research tools. For all of the things that we're doing now that said. And i've been a proponent of that approach entire career i do recognize as i think most people do that powerful though these models will be they will never completely and intact organism and so What what the jackson particularly trying to do is to move away from the use of one strain. C fifty seven black genetics and of one to incorporate in a lot of mass genetic diversity into what it does and thereby the already strong evidence coming from our lab and from others a not my lab but the jackson-lee other labs that shows that by using mouse genetic diversity brive at better in vivo models of human conditions and so that's another thing we're very excited about and i think that you know it's it's it's very shortsighted indeed to to assume that we're going to learn everything we need no by look so culture uncles or organoids models powerful though they may be well certainly. There's a lot left to be to be done when it comes to the basic biology of stem cell pluripotency. And perhaps some of these models are going to help us better understand that as well and so thank you so much for joining us here today. Dr pera and before we let you go. We're going to ask you a couple of science peripheral questions to kind of help. Our audience gets no you a little bit better so starting off. What non science book are you reading that you've read. That is really great and that you wanna share with our listeners. So just recently. I read a book called killing comandante. Tori by haruki murakami the great japanese novelist and i just love his work. He puts or very ordinary people in ordinary situations and suddenly. They're going down very very strange pathways and it's fascinating. There's a lot of philosophy in it great storyteller and on top of that. He's fascinated with cats and jazz. You're not the. I guess who's recommended that particular author so I guess great minds are total maniac. Insane scientists think. Oh like it depends on how you classify There the next one last. We love this. I think you know rare that a science is willing to put himself out there. But you know you can do whatever you want at this point in your career. Tell us what was your greatest science blunder. Okay well that that's an embarrassing. What i would say i say. This quite seriously was a group leader at the university of oxford in the mid ninety s Being relatively young and foolish. I build up. A scientific portfolio that consisted solely of high risk high payoff projects with binary outcomes binary. Meaning i the you get the answer and is fantastic. Or you don't and you have nothing and those two projects. The first one was trying to purify growth factor that did for human cells. What lift does for the mouse. We had human terror carcinomas that were feeder dependent. This factor substituted for the second project was trying to isolate human pluripotent stem cells from either the blast assist or fetal germ cells within the timeframe of our grant there. We failed at both and what he told me was in. It's probably good advice for young people. Definitely take these projects on but make sure they're not the only thing in your portfolio Wow that's a bit is in there. Thank you for sharing for simeon. Now reframe every single project. I thought make sure i don't have binary outcomes except a few a few. That are pretty. You know straightforward. Yes you got. You gotta run the shop right. But you're no stranger to risk. And i think you're an inspiration are listen to someone who's it's nice to know that you've taken big risk because you know some of your wrists have paid off and In a careful way. So i've always admired you as a scientist in the mount alone. Thank you so much for sharing those insights with us today. Dr pair will hope to have you back again sometime soon. Thanks very much pleasure talking to you. All right guys that brings us to the end of our show. Don't forget to subscribe to our newsletter at. Www dot stem cell podcast dot com to get a summary of previous episodes also links to all the interview notes. You can also reach out to us on twitter at stem cell. Podcast or by email info at stem cell podcast dot com with feedback or to suggest guests. Thank you so much for joining us for this episode. Be sure to check in with us in a week or two. We'll have more for you.

dr martin para Dr pera Dr martin jackson laboratories apsl Dr martin para jackson laboratories para dr pera dalen sixty four thousand dollar janet ross jackson Ben rubin dr saito twenty years christine marie Lomax Rawson dr parag dr perez
ACES and Trauma Informed Care Part 2

Second Opinion

03:20 min | 5 months ago

ACES and Trauma Informed Care Part 2

"Visit Dr Michael Wilks with a second opinion. Last week I introduced you to brandon a seventeen year old with significant adverse childhood experiences or aces. For most of his life, Brandon's parents were both addicted to methamphetamine and he grew up surrounded by violence and extreme poverty. Robust research has shown that ACE's or a significant risk to both physical and emotional health now, and as brandon grows older. So, now, that Brandon is a young adult, how can we intervene the emerging field is called trauma informed care and it seeks to address the root causes of aces offering trauma informed care is a national initiative aimed at understanding how healthcare settings can improve patient outcomes. I spoke with an expert who is trying to teach clinicians about this new approach, her name. Is Gionta Para May Swaran I. Go by Dr Pera I am a pediatrician at one community health. So what is trauma informed care? So trauma informed care is using some fundamental principles to help someone understand their own trauma traditional approaches to carrying Brandon would address each of his medical problems. His substance abuse is depression and his stomach pains separately trauma informed care is. Broader. So with Brandon what I would say is I giving in creating a safe space for brandon to feel like he's a human being and he's not a list of diagnoses and not a list of events that happened to him as a child. Dr Para feels the key to trauma informed care is a team approach so that no one person is responsible for. Providing all the services to any given patient. So there is the integration of the team with mental health case management, Primary Care Resources to the community. Now, you have an integrated team to be the cure team foreign individual versus a primary care physician feeling like if I open Pandora's box I have nothing to offer but trauma informed care requires a recognition that ISA's. More common than we admit part of the education and awareness is to explain a how pervasive and prevalent aces are. This is not in one gender one, race one, ethnicity, one group geographically, these factors do not play a role it is very pervasive as Dr Pera works to train health care providers at all levels. She's teaching that trauma informed care needs to focus on. Creating time to screen for early trauma creating a safe physical and emotional environment assuring that medical staff avoid creating secondary trauma and then creating care teams to support people like Brandon. It means moving from a medical organization to a healing organization that is reflective rather than reactive and that is committed to growing safe and healthy communities. This is Dr Michael Wilks with a second opinion.

Brandon Dr Michael Wilks Dr Pera Primary Care Resources Dr Pera I Dr Para ISA methamphetamine ACE depression seventeen year
Joe Pera

Adult Swim Podcast

45:02 min | 10 months ago

Joe Pera

"Max Do you know the long term effects of Jewelry Probably Cauliflower Lung Cancer? Your lungs scab over my dad has only one nostril now but that's normal cigarettes. Nobody knows other relative to new. Nobody knows a long-term effects of jewelry. Text Ditch Joel. Two eight eight seven on. How do we find out though if people quit? It's none of your business. It's free it's anonymous. It's not an APP to program. Nobody knows the long term effects of jewelry text ditch jewel two eight eight seven nine ditched jewell. What's the number ditch? Jewel eight seven nine. That's right kick that bogus habit in the throat from Atlanta somewhere near William Street. But not inside. This is the adult swim podcast. I'm Matt Harrigan here with maximum as going. I'm Max you could call me Max then please look at me in the eyes on this week's adults in podcast Joe Para but first let's check the PODCAST MAILBAG. We end done a podcast in awhile since the end of last year. The Rick and morty companion podcasts which by the way are set to resume people have been. Sending requests comments concerns criticisms adults from podcast at. Go Dot Com a chosen one to read today. This is from Zong Yuan to dear manager. Hello we are zongyu on Green. Shell Egg Sales Company Ltd. Our company mainly deals in Green. Shell eggs goose eggs. Wild eggs triax ordinary eggs and other products are products of the highest quality. All of which are passed the national standard detected. I really hope that your company has the opportunity to cooperate if you needed. Please reply to us as soon as possible. Thank you the best regards and I got no right here so I'm going to respond to this. Oh okay sorry. What is the price? That's so weird Matt. Go 'cause I got a letter dated from two weeks in the future. It's covered in mustard and it says what is price. Wow that's the only fan mail I got send. Us requests comments whatever adult swim podcast gmail.com. We'll get to them earlier this week. A lot of you watched the premiere of the new show from Tim and Eric Beef House there was a Hashtag released. The beef campaign The network released beef hash so weak early. They kind of den. Yeah there's a fund stunt. They pulled the curtains of the beef house opened. The re re there was a meet of the beef inside pretty fun for people who like watching shows. Yeah wasn't planned. It was just something that sort of came together and turn turn into a quickly hastily-assembled stunt that I think was brought some nice attention to the Xiao. You Watch it. Oh Yeah. The thing about beef is sometimes. If you leave it can oxidizing. You'll get gray parts on the beef. That happened to me with head. A bunch of Morton Della did I turn. Quarantine had to talk beef house premiers this Sunday. Twelve fifteen march twenty ninth this coming weekend along with another new show three busy. You know anything about that. I know that someone on facebook who didn't like it called it three busy bridget's. I thought that was funny. They like it hasn't come out yet. I guess they don't like the clips. They're showing. I thought they showed a real good clip recently. Which was the the crazy guy telling them? They're going to get their tubes tied for the mess they've caused and one of the girls like he's always nice to us. Debra Debra Debra three very busy women who are all named Deborah this comes from Amy Poehler Company. We'll talk more about those shows be fastened three busy. Deborah's next week today we're gonNA from Joe Para. I talked to him a little while back now about his show. Joepat talks with you do you. What do you know about Dzhokhar talks with you? Max? There's a pacing to it and there's a pacing to his voice that he really has. He's really like this in some ways. Yeah I know in part of your interview Matt you ask. Where's the real you begin and end I said but you know exactly what you say and There is just a unless he's so veiled in nonsense. There's a truth to this pacing voice and there's a pacing to the show that really differs from. I mean other content we enjoy. That's more fast. Paced Ball masters or reality shows aqua teen. That's just boom and certain ways that's like trying to grab a part of your brain appeal to it Joe Peril lets you sit in the mellow of the moment. And you still are laughing at some absurd moments and it's weird how effortless it can sometimes seem I mean. Of course there's a lot of thought put into it. I feel like adult swim in. General has a lot of instincts to a term. I feel like you've used. And maybe others to blow things up and Go so unexpected and Subvert yourself which is a great instinct and I do think Joe. Pera does do a lot of subversion but he does it by like not necessarily blowing things up you know by embracing the mundane again some. But I feel like that's almost patronizing to call it the mundane you know so. It's hard to comment on it without seeing seeming. Like I'm like look at this quaint man just talking we enjoying it because there's a deliberateness to it. There's a thought process. And there is a subversion that comes from the juxtaposition of language and themes. But there's also gesture instead of blowing things up it. Sometimes when the most successful episodes of the first season was the one where he just loves watching listening to the WHO. Yeah anyway here is my chat. Joe where Where are you from From Buffalo New York Joe Para what do you tell people? Your job is Comedian comedian. Yeah first and foremost I depends on who I'm talking to. Sometimes I'll just raider is When you say comedian that opens up ball. Whole Bunch of questions Is Kinda funny yesterday? The the heat is off of my apartment so we came by to to to fix it the gas leak in my home and they were Disconnecting the stove ignite started talking about him about How I do comedy. It's nice for for for People usually have nice things to say and talk about their favorite comedians. But a lot of time The kind of I don't know it all depends but the yesterday he had heard a joke on the radio but he couldn't remember what it was or who had said so he just kept going one of the Best Best Best. I've ever heard and I was okay. I couldn't even say I'll I'll have to check them out or I'll have to look the personnel. Because I had no idea I just had to take him at his word that it was really good joke. He didn't tell you the joke no he couldn't remember so. Do you feel pressure when you tell people that? You're a comedian. You have to be funny. I used to feel more pressure but now say you know I'm I'm not funny all the time and then they won't expect anything funny. I guess it comes from years of conversations. I think it was tough. I don't mind it now but WHO's toughest when I was just starting out an ahead though is in New York and you know you go home for the holidays. I think a lot of COMEDIANS experienced this. Put Your family members s you. We've been up to in a tent up and they say oh would shows if you've been on or would serve the what can I watch all I? I just finished a youtube video but I swear him a comedian. I you know you'd be doing stand up. Open mics every night. And I think that that makes you a comedian. But if nobody's heard of bungles den which is a true venue here in New York for a while if known and does her two bungalows Dan. You don't want to say. I do comedy bungalows Dan and There is is a couple located question the not always but now. He's having a comedian. The to the House Steve Bernal time. And they don't believe you idled. Sometimes they believe me. He's actually except for one talking to Martin Short because he also knows Steve Martin you know Joe Para talks with urea surprise to be to think you were going to do this. I wasn't sure I guess we made the first season with the you know just thinking that if we only got one chance to make a television show we're gonNA make it as good as we could and then be happy with no matter whether we get another season or not so Getting the season with such a nice thing that me and all my friends could continue to work and we had the same theory. This one alcoa make this one better. Because if we don't get another chance to do it again we wanna make this one as good as possible too so I I do feel very lucky to be here and as a kid. Did you think you were going to grow up and be doing? This is something that you saw yourself doing. I guess from a certain age on a I always wanted to do it. I was never like a class clown or anything or the funniest class. I would But I don't know I I didn't share it with a lot of people When I graduated I just started doing. Stand up a figure it out from there. W- how do people describe your or? How would you describe your sensibility? That's the question I like less than than telling people. I'm a comedian. Yeah here why? Because it feels like pigeonholes describing what something tastes like. Yeah except for you're describing. What you taste like weird is easier as just What what do people people? You're you get irritated when people can't imagine you irritated but when people Ask you that question. Why no I guess? It's I don't know I s I'm sure like if I'm talking to a I don't know A lawyer or bus driver asks them very obvious. Kind of questions about the. They're lawyering or bus driving and I'm sure they get a lot of the same things to So I I'm not irritated. I just kinda skirt around it like trying to now. Yeah you did a Nice Job. Skirting around thanks. I should've said walk us through your arrival at the network. How did How did you get on the networks radar been doing a STANDUP Show called Joe Peres. Talks SHEET ASLEEP BECAUSE MY FRIEND NATE. Fernald said the my my comedy is so mild I should make a tape of Be for like a cassette tape where I talked people asleep and I've been doing a stand up. Show to develop material for it and Camera and Tang Development Guy was in town. I met him for a a coffee and I shared the idea and the I. Yeah who is Interest? It was a fun meeting. He came in with the skateboard and I was like. Oh boy I. I wonder if he's going to like this and that puts on your heels a little bit well. I don't know the old I'd never was a skateboard grownup. A couple of my friends skateboarded and I would Rollerblade down but I definitely knew that that was to to rollerblade was not nearly as close to skateboard But He did he really liked it and then. I wanted to make sure that the concept was totally sold so I went home. And I a repurpose old animation from over the weekend and did like three minute version which I sent to him and Walter and they liked it and decided to give it a chance in the the four. Am infomercial spot. Over the next three months we made the show and that was the first thing. They did Did you stay up late and watch it? Yeah I think I I must have. Fallen Asleep is inherited for. I think I've I've my friend invited me over to watch it and I think I fell asleep for maybe one. Am to three am and then they shook me in the they said. You GotTa Get psyched up your your show on TV and then you turn it on and you watch it and it goes buying eleven minutes. Yeah that was that feel. What's it like Dandy? Is it anticlimactic? Are You wide awake? Well by the time you finish working something you've seen everything you've seen it so many dozens of times and every little detail and you don't really want to hear your voice for look at your face but it's there's something nice when it's actually on TV and airing for the first time was really exciting. Not a huge fan of commercials but when you watch you know see commercials Dr. Before and afterwards and then with the lead in it does kind of feel more like you know like you're watching it with everybody for the first time on regular. Tv is kind of a cool thing as opposed. You know. I like to Internet but I watch a lot of stuff on the Internet but known that other people are watching. It live with you. The exact same time is really a special thing. How do you? How do you pick your? How did you pick your cast members Close friends from From the performing really connor is an old friend. I think conor o'malley. He's one of the funniest people I know. And we've been writing together for years. Joe Firestone. Same and with the LAKOTA. He's not on the show as but she makes an appearance but he's we've been friends since high school and Who also the MARDI SCOUSE He directed the Christmas special Her us for performers Most of the main roles on the show. Also right the show and then The other ones I it just makes a lot of sense like Joe. Scott who plays Connor o'malley's wife on the show is just a excellent actress on top over performer and she actually thought that we were kidding. When when we cast during the Christmas special because it was such a fast process. She thought that was a joke. We told her about it a month before that. We were hoping that she'll do it. And then all of a sudden somebody reached out to make travel arrangements for her to go to Michigan. And she she rise. There was a real thing She's an old friend. Connors and Marty's from from doing Improv in Chicago. I remember at the conclusion of the first season. I think everyone was real happy with the show and and their reaction to it and I think I remember correct me if I'm wrong that you didn't jump into the next season immediately and I think that was a surprise. You want to wait for the seasons to change kind of soon to be totally unusual. Well we shoot it in Milwaukee in Michigan and Work you know there's nothing you can do about whether there so we knew that we When it got cold we started with by filming. The the the the fall drive episode On toy think hallow- Halloween Day or the day before because the fall foliage turns so fast there that If we waited another weekend it was going to the there would be no leaves on the trees at all. So we rushed the writing process to get that done and pre production and we were like we gotta get the fall foliage guy get the fall foliage and then it actually snowed that we can with the Pumpkin in the woods. But it kind of was nice that That over the course of the episode which free shot in two days back to back you could see. The weather changed so drastically which is really what it's like up there and But it was a good lesson like is this very cold and kind of hard to shoot and focus when it's twenty thirty degrees outside guy. Shoot a scene so We thought that not only for the story but just for the sake of not putting the crew outside for twelve hours and twenty thirty degree weather We should wait for the spring those also at the Like now me and Marie were kind of direct. Murray Scouts Ball is the direct trade does all the episodes and also he had. It's the show With the Himself there's another editor would conway put. We're just very tired. And who we thought that it would be good to gather our ideas and And and I I did stand up tour over the summer to help get some new ideas to and get writing again and I think if we just entered into a new season without pets It wouldn't have been as good for a bunch of reasons but mostly there is for me. Stand up as might creative engine. And if I'm not doing it I think the quality of my work slide so I hope that now that we're done with this season I can get back into a full-time and An rating jus- jokes for the sake of writing jokes again zits the most fun. I think that that's where the good ideas for hopefully another seasonal come from so you do a lot of the writing for the show on on stage doing stand up some some last. I think it was more for the first season. I had more ideas that I brought from Earlier stand up. It's like the Episode seven where. There's the fireworks seen in the stages of watching fireworks There was a standard bit. That had those then put into the show but Like a lot of the stuff house able to workshop on stage and I did a bit for season to put just because it was so much a bigger and we had to the we did more episodes it was just it was Need to kind of take more of a leap and not be able to workshop at onstage. Even I I did some but It was different in that way. You put a lot of sort of well known music. I mean a couple times in your show. Is that stuff that you like or is it stuff that you just put in there for comedy? I mean I I kind of like era most of the stuff in the show. It's a lot of like the the WHO song in particular. How much of that cost to the network to put in a? I'll go ask Keith. Yeah maybe it's better that I don't Wanna I don't WanNa say it was a I got really I mean. It was kind of a Hail Mary that we through bulletin being able to to use it. 'cause it was in the script from the beginning and was it a pain to get somebody went to a p towns they had to go to. Pete Townsend's Assistant get fairly close to him or manager and sign off and I think by curious if he ever knew about it or does know about it to this day but somebody very close to him. Head the sign offs on top of the I. Guess the the money the Somebody had to get permission and get through them. So we've kind of looked out. There's a really funny interview. He just did with the high think. Pbs were. They asked him about touring at age. Seventy and he said the more or less Hughes honesty's I don't enjoy it. I do it for the money so he gets the nose of fetal even like the show so we got some money for you and he said okay. Did you see them when they came through? Just recently I know I went song here in Atlanta our they. I was surprised that they didn't suck. I thought I thought it was actually really surprisingly good. Yeah wow the apparently Roger daltry is still very much into it and everything but I guess it's as long as you couldn't tell Pete Townsend not into it. I couldn't tell I couldn't. There's no we can get on that stage and Play music like that. And not the within like at least halfway through the concert not be a little bit into. Was it a pain to get a mighty Quinn? No I mean The producer never said that it was difficult so I assume to kind of happen fairly easily. I don't know how how hard I don't. I don't think it was as expensive because we weren't playing it. The kids her singing it also. I don't know if you haven't seen it. You gotta look it up There's a video of. He appeared on Pawn Stars. The television show Bob Dylan Bob. If you search on Youtube Bob Dylan Pawn Stars five minutes segment or Choummaly. Goetz's Bob Dylan record. And he goes. I heard Bob. Dole is playing in Vegas tonight. I guess I should go out and try and get Bob Dylan to sign this record. And so Charlie goes out. It's like a scene of him wandering around behind the casinos. All of a sudden Bob. Dylan's right there so it must have been set up in advance. But he just because i Bob Dylan at Bob Dole turns and talks with Charnley on pawn stars in any signs album and then Y- was amazing that he wanted to appear on the show. Because I don't think accident Kazoo is set up. I'm GonNa go find Dylan. I assume he knew they knew that he would do it. And do WanNa know the ending. Yes so chummy. Brings the record back to the store and the I forget the name of the bald guy with the facial hair. But he goes wireless amazing. You actually met him and then he says can you shortly the record so we can sell it. And it says to Chummy by Bob Dylan and he goes. Oh come on. How are we ever going to sell this record when it says to me the one else the world has named Charlie Spoil? It was definitely worth watching. Do you ask the network. Can I make more? Do they come to you and say hey? Can you make more? They wait and see how they do. How does that work for you? I have no idea I really don't I don't know how all these things work. And how did it work last time for the after the first season it was very nice? basically it was the add screening one night and then the following day. We the up fronts where they do Wait they they pitched. The show is to try and get the advertisers on board so all. Tbs The at TNT. Ed Adult Swim puts on a big a big flashy show for all these people in suits and The screening was the night before and So I was a couple beers in those little hungover and down the red carpet The executive Came up to me and said congratulations more or less how we were interested in doing more episodes so then I I went in. I watch CONAN. O'brien interviewed shack. Onstage WAS SURREAL. Just sticking way this you know. I was just So so happy knowing that My friends would have another seasons of four. Can we continue where we left off? Knows the weird weird bunch of emotions and you know. I don't know I don't really do the don't Deuce Parties are celebrity. But there is a you know like all the people like Is Weird 'cause they all the networks bring out the stars like Tiffany Haddish. Was there a and the you know shack was right there. The very surreal morning. I don't know how there's a very funny photo maybe cameron can send it to you but I was just Kinda like hung over. I didn't know what to do with myself on the red carpet. And somebody says community we WANNA get you a photo and it's a photo of. I didn't even know who visited. But it's like all the top executives from the network glued the president plus late shack. Tiffany haddish Anderson Cooper Chris Pine and a Amy Sedaris and I just had no idea what was going on and supreme good for the new Oversaw the most ever again. What are some things that are safer than other things but are still not safe? It's like a riddle getting shot out of a cannon safer that it's it's not safe but it's safer then falling off of a bill subway surfing broader example running at the pool. It's not safe. It's safer than running at a train. Yes vaping be safer than smoking but that doesn't make it safe. No you see my analogy. Absolutely vaping might be safer than smokey doesn't make it safe text ditch. Jewel two eight eight seven nine tax. Does it ditched jewel? The eight eight seven zero nine eight seven or nine. Stop pretending it's that it's so much safer than cigarettes that suddenly okay to do it. No it's not suddenly okay to do it just like it's not suddenly okay to go punch your neighbor. Just because you're not also shooting them in the kneecap thank you Tacoma. Fd All new Thursday's attack on TV. So what's your your friends can turn people onto who might not know. I don't know everybody on the show I guess Conroe mail is so funny. Damn who been my old friend. He's very funny. He's got some great videos And then I guess a Carmen Christopher's in one of the episodes he's an old friend of being Marty's and I I met Mardi the director because he did a film short film with Carmen. That was so funny I had to reach out an email him when he was living in. Chicago is called. Forget about it. And it's like a kind of a take on the Donnie BRASCO Movie but is a sort of funny short film. That takes so a turns. I'd say John Reynolds isn't it to anthem is very fun to that. Carmen was able to do the episode this season. And the me him. Martin were able to work. Together is just. I don't know how is so one of the funniest videos I've seen forget about what's going on these big late night talk shows. It's fun. I hope it goes well but I I don't know Ivan there I'm filler lucky to do it but I never watched a ton of talk shows growing up rather watch you know actual not comedy Stand up as opposed to people chatting Deniro on the show. That was very funny Yes my my parents came and I his. The rooms at thirty rock are much closer together than like at another studio just because it's not a very big space. So they had my dressing room right across from Robert. Deniro and my. We didn't tell my dad that he was gonna be there as like a surprise but we didn't expect him to be right across the hallway. So My Dad. Kinda sat at my dressing room just Kinda like looking at across the hallway thing for him to walk by or do something and it was really funny. Yeah Yeah it was. At a certain point. I asked the producer of the show of it would be alright if I went in and just introduced myself and I brought my dad's because I he watched the Irishman to two times this past week alone. Not Kidding and so I went in and I said I don't WanNa bought you too much but it's wanted to say hello on comedy on the show tonight and this is my dad slash agent and he was nice and then he Yeah that was a nice nice very nice he said I don't Who was you know? He didn't Get angry or anything. But I don't want to bother him I just you know. He's one of the greatest actors of like the last fifteen years so tonight I would've surreal. I would have felt bad to not done and my dad really loved it. He said The only thing you can do you do anything you want. But just don't quote his movies to him and he didn't so I think the is yeah it's just hard to know. This happened before us now. To be is not bad. It's just hard to think of what to say when somebody coach your own thing to you lead. It's hard to you know all you can say this Yup I wrote that. Your parents must be proud. They must it must have been a thrill for them. I mean they. They love the my dad. Got To be Robert Deniro but but You know the very worried for a while but it's easier I don't know when stuff why Kendall the late night stuff happens. It gets easier thing you know. They they know that you can make a career out of it. This is my parents. Were really hard in the definitely You know the idea of being a comedian is not Yeah it's just a little bit. There is pretty far out from from. One is a sensible job path did it seem frivolous to them or were. They worried about you at the beginning. Yeah coming to New York definitely. I mean the fled some. Yeah just lean years not make money you know working all sorts of jobs to pay rent so is they've was they were never for like done. Never said don't do comedy the fact that I would say their their support supportive of it. Tears worried and yeah still weird doing comedy for my parents. Did they think you're going to have a different path or did you talk about a different path I think they were a little nervous. I studied film at school but So that was probably going on all in to begin with but The the yeah. I don't know what else would happen. Have you had some Significant creative rejections in your in your life. Oh yeah yeah it was dave. I haven't really thought pack on all my my comedy years but Stand up his little bit different than than the other performers Took some time for for for for for people catch on and trusted and I did pitch the talks. You this sleep animation to a Another place and they thought that it would be a good is like a a three minute. I think they said NYQUIL or robitussin branded content so To be able to you know be given the trust to to make it into a longer show and be given the opportunity to kind of go with our ideas pretty rare. I think I feel really lucky that the adult swim. Let's do it and kind of pursue the things that were the ideas that we have in the way that the you know shoot side is the best is opposed to try and the fitting it into the or being like another TV. Show but Yeah it was harder to you know to get them the EBA despite the slower pace that it could be funny and make dot in slash easiest for places to Digest One of the. I guess it was a bummer. Me and conner had a a web series called how to make it in. Usa replaced my agent and It's and we basically made phone calls to cruise lines trying to get them to book me kind escalated we went and tried to get into the CBS building. Talk to was will invest before Before he got me too but but The we we pitched that and we we really hoped would go through on that the fact that it it we thought we were going to make it a and then it didn't happen. That was a pretty big bummer Put it's all it's all part of it. I don't know do people come back to you now and say. Oh we changed our mind. No no I mean it is just mostly bomber brick is. I think that they're really funny. Show because he's so funny and founding sweaters lime sulfur to the wardrobe people could bring it to you. I do have a bunch of bunch more like half my own half from wardrobe and then at the end of the show they say I know you like this. You WanNa keep it and then I'll wear it in the in between seasons until I were on the next season shop online or do you go to stores to buy clothes. A LITTLE. Bit of a mix. I've sweater sometimes quota lands DOT COM. I don't want to advertise put pretty easy. All stuff is pretty affordable. I don't want a fancy clothes. I just want pants and shirts advertising. You just happen to like land's end in a somehow is always fifty percent off. I don't know how I don't want to think. Oh yes bad to think about. Who's making the clothes that they're always half off but I don't know is very hard to find a closed. Let's not dismayed ethically. I don't know I world closed for a while Some of the shirts I had cousins older cousins. That dress really well in high school. So I got there hand-me-downs when I was in high school and some of the shirts and sweaters. I still wear today. Is there an episode of your show at the People? Who Don't know your show that you would say. Watch this I I think the easiest way into the show is probably the the the Baba o'riley your Joe Payer Reach the church announcements episode from season. One by think Joe Para takes you to breakfast from season. One Hand is a People seem to like in. I don't know none of them are hard to get into but Grocery Stores Pretty Fun Straight Four Episode. Kind of in the I don't know very. Is You know one location. I basically talk about groceries Dole time I think he's pretty funny was written by Connor I I I think it's a good way into the season. If people have been watching yet do you feel the pressure to conform? The showed to what you already have it as or to evolve or does that even come up. We tried to take it in different directions as time and grow it and spend more time with different characters in the the worst thing to me would be if the show. became predictable or You know even we tried to make every episode feel different than is in addition to be in its own subject matter and also unexpected and and While still kind of keeping the tone the people like the show for help or that is you know the type of comedy I I do put. How are you asked to give advice to aspiring performers? Sometimes what you just as you get good advice from somebody. I actually wrote to Christopher guest when I was in senior in high school and he wrote back and he said the the ask them what. How embarrassing now but I asked him what the secret to being funny was. He seemed to be everything that I saw was so funny and he wrote package just said do you think is funny. There's no secret and I think that that yeah. I think that's great advice and kind of really just follow your instincts do that combined with By their get as much time as you can if you're live performer. Or making videos or films just make his many as you can will or at least you know in care about every single one that you do and will listen to the audience feedback to two degree But have about doing. I don't know there really is no secret than hard work and and doing what you think is funny. Do you have a dark side? Do you fight with anybody. I WanNa talk about the head on the podcast specifically who seemed like such an amiable guy. I tried to be a dark side. I think everybody does this. I guess how we deal with it whether you take it out on other people or not or you keep it inside. Take it out on yourself. I don't know well. Thanks. Don't take you. I'm glad we finally do. Enjoy the rest of your dad helped there. You have it I liked. How a there's a few things he didn't want to answer. Yeah I like that I also by the way did this Remotely usually they're done. I was going to bring that up and that probably made it strain so you can't look in their eyes download. The APP visited Dot Com to watch. Joe Parrot talks with you along with lots of other free stuff links to some of the things we were just talking about. Don't forget we offer live interactive streaming shows last dream on the left truth point as seen on adult swim blood. Feast where you do the New York Times Crossword puzzle every day. Of Course Fish Center stupid morning bullshit. One way people like to watch these shows is on the adult swim APP for your phone TV that way you can watch Joe Para on Roku Amazon Fire Apple TV android. Ios And you can always chat along on Adilson dot com slash chat music. From this week's podcast attract called fo Sho by delvin Lamar organ trio visit the delvonn. The Mar- Organ Trio Dot Com and support live music. Send your requests comments concerns. Criticisms pig offers noodle podcasts A FEMALE DOT com. Thanks to Dave Bonner with Christina laundry for putting this podcast together. Thank you for listening to me. Thank you Max thank you Max. We'll be back next week. Everyone's capable of putting down their phone. Well because they'RE GLUED TO OUR HANDS. They're not but they are. My eyes are glued to okay. Boomer you're on it. You're on a more than I am because I have a lot of people. Give me attention and I wanNA give them attention back. And it's also a compulsion if you have a jewel compulsion you can put it down some people addiction ditch Joel. Two eight eight seven texts that they'll and they'll talk to me. Yeah I'm GonNa do it just to have a new friend three synonymous not an APP. It's a program. What was that that number again? Eight seven zero nine text. Dick do know. Try Practice. Text digital the eight seven zero nine that's it.

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Can Gavin Wood's Polkadot 'Make Blockchain Great Again'? - Ep.202

Unchained

1:22:01 hr | Last month

Can Gavin Wood's Polkadot 'Make Blockchain Great Again'? - Ep.202

"Hi everyone welcome to unchain. I'm your host. Laura shin this week on the show. I have a fireside chat. I conducted with parody and polkadot founder. Gavin would at the pogo dot c. Coated conference last week. Gavin answered my questions while sipping whiskey which those of you watching the video will see in this episode. We discussed what his vision was in creating. polkadot what kinds of pera chains he expects will be created there and how he believes polkadot can coexist with a theory him. We also discuss. Whether defy like compose ability will ever be possible on pogo dot weather dot security and parodies history with security lapses and how that could affect polka-dot since all chains share security provided by the base layer. It was a fun and fascinating conversation. And i hope you enjoy it. Crypto dot com. the crypto. super app. That lets you buy earn and spend crypto all in one place earn to eight point five percent per year on your btc and more than twenty other coins. Download the crypto dot com. Now to find out how much you could be. Earning one inch exchange is defies leading decks aggregated that discover the best trade practices across all exits. One inch was launched in may twenty nineteen by two white hat hackers at east globals. Eighth new york hackathon. One inch has reached almost seven billion dollars in overall volume in just over a year. High gavin nice to see you again likewise all right. So let's have a discussion about all things polkadot. Let's start with a really basic question. What is your vision for polkadot. When you conceived of it what problems are you trying to solve. Well there are many answers to this question. It's it's an interesting one in many respects. It was a very abstract thing that i wanted to do. When i started polka-dot it was a really just the push to become more abstract more general over over what it was that we were sold. Ing was that we were producing. So it's like you know. Bitcoin started off with a very basic scripting. Language theorem sort of introduced this much more complete means of of scripting transactions. I'm really with polkadot. It was trying to create something that produced like an even more general model for how How how it can be extended how things can be added and then on top of that. It was really also trying to address this fundamental problem of scale ability like how do we try and push through more transactions. How do we take advantage of the fact that there's an awful lot of workers out there on the network but it's so wasteful to have the mole working on the same thing So it was. It was these twin sort of topics. These this generality and and scale ability and really the division was was just to sort of make blockchain great again. Can we take blockchain to. It's you know a step further Can we actually address some of these really important issues. That we've always known have existed you. You can go really quite far by five ten years And see that people are already thinking. Well we really need to like you know. Process different transactions on different notes. We really need to be more general on it was yeah it was really just. How come we can. We bring this forward. Can we be more general coming process more transactions on different mental. And when you say the words general and abstract. I'm not really sure what you mean. You've also talked about how polkadot is a meta protocol. Are those concepts related. And can you explain what you mean by that. Yes they are they are so metric protocol is like a meta means of after or beyond generally used to mean like the next step down past this concept. So it's like you know A meta protocol is a protocol that govan's another protocol a protocol on which she complained another protocol. It's like a a protocol of appropriate or protocol of protocols. And what i mean by medha protocol in this sense really is that it's an underlying kind of much more basic much simpler protocol on which we build what we would normally consider to be the protocol so to take an example The protocol of of of bitcoin is while we send blocks around in these blocks when you execute them When you when you interpret the blocks all the transactions in them there are you know. transactions with like some script but basically most of the time it means. Send these bitcoins to these addresses and dots. that's a protocol. We led the nodes of the bitcoin network. Understand how to interpret these blocks right language. Basically but it's very difficult once you've set that language is kind of set in stone. It's very difficult to to alter it to change it to introduce additional features to fix books And you know it's like it's it's very rigid. A meta protocol would sit underneath that protocol. Define that protocol and the nice thing is that because it's defined in terms of this meta protocol open. You can change it quite easily. Can you just have to obey the rules of the meta protocol and then the main protocol can can adapt evolve over time so then the question is why is that what you know. What if you need to adoptable. It's on the meta protocol and the the idea that is that we make as simple and as as abstract as possible. We take a pre existing technology. Something that has already kind of been rated through something. The very people from many different sort of stakeholders have already argued about and sorta come to the decision that this is probably the best thing that does this kind of meta protocol this thick stuff and what we did was well. We chose basically webassembly because webassembly is like an industry standard. It's been iterative on. It's actually the already two separate technologies one built by missoula built by google. A sort of been s- plunged together into this into this thing webassembly so it's already got a lot of ideas it's already had a lot of iterations. It's unlikely that ever really get any to change it. And therefore it's it's really good foundation to build our stuff on met this meta protocol and then we just have to define everything else in terms of that. And that's why the protocol comes in so the real polkadot protocal para chains and governance and balanced dot protocol staking. All of stuff is the polkadot protocol and not stuff changes over time but it's defined in terms of the matter protocol that doesn't really change over time and that's that's the stuff that we the we make sure that we've got this tried and tested Very sort of well understood well-known Technology in like so. Yeah it's it is a lot about being flexible and abstract because this top level. The polkadot protocol is not very abstract. I mean it powertrains a pretty good but there's still a very A very specific way of having different sort of shards every specific way of scaling there a specific way of Like having a market mechanism to claim them. So it's it's still like opinionated as we would say there's still a lot of opinions involved in it whereas the webassembly isn't very opinionated. It's not even our opinion it someone else's google's and missoula's and microsoft and all of their opinions really we just said right. Well you guys have had time to argue about whose opinion is best. We'll take the answer news it because we don't want to argue we just want to have something that's stable and that's that sort of because of that it's a more abstract level that we can build things on so there is this like these jewel levels the matter protocol. Abstract very general doesn't change very much and the protocol much more much more opinionated more specific changes a lot because we don't out pins are always wrong in the fullness of time opinions always on the always need changing design always needs changing it. It's a rates over time and we want to allow ourselves to evolve. And that's why having these two separate protocols that met protocol and the bottom. The protocol building on top of it is Is how we achieved that. And it's the same with with It's the same how we get from bitcoins with areas to polkadot there. Is this idea of like well with with bitcoin. It wasn't really programmable with theory. I'm it was kinda programmable be at this very limited computation model with gas and dynamic gas pricing on dynamic accounting resources and limited memory and storage and it was all very expensive and dot oled that changes with the computation model in pawtucket because we have para chains which had much more abstract much more general in that. They're not just the smart contract a little bit of code The the sort of keep some records maybe people's balances but raw an entire block chain the basically kind of do more or less anything that you can imagine a blockchain to do. I'm that that's a much more abstract for. I'll give you a concrete reason why it's an abstract thing you could easily implement a smart contract inside of a blockchain the already are blockchain's the edgeware moonbeam a few others. You can't do it the other way round. you can't implement a blockchain inside of a smart contract. The because there's just not enough computational power it's like you know it'd be like china shove shoe inside of it doesn't there's there's no one can contain the other can't contain the one and and that's that's why we can say well look polkadot in the power chain model is more general than this contract model. Now doesn't mean it's better for all use cases in all circumstances but it does mean that anything that you can do in a small contract you can do in a para chain and but not the other way round. There's a lot of things that you can do in a chain or the at least at the very least would be extremely difficult to do a small contract and you also have para threads. Can you define those and differentiate them from the parent teens. Yes oh power chains as a term it sort of evolved a little bit over time but broadly speaking para chains are these these slots that like Does some number of them and a little bit like a m- compete like computer. 'cause so you compute is a bunch. Of course i mean this this will not on a thing has full but some of them these days have six eight or even more and the 'cause compress a particular application at once so if you've got a bunch of windows open then it might be that one of the causes doing the video playing in window. The core is helping you browse brenda the email in another window. And i know the core is playing your music in the background so they can do different workloads. Basically power chains are alike this but for blockchain. So they can do they do different workloads. One of them might be processing. Contract transactions another might be processing balanced transfers like bitcoin transferred transactions. Another might be doing governance and other what might be calculating the optimum staking situation is so it can do each of these. 'cause each of these parrot parents can do different things at any given time and we measured time in terms of blocks. So it's like this particular block block number one million four hundred and seventy thousand two hundred and ninety three is doing this it's doing it's staking para chain got a governance powertrain. It's got a two or three contract prior chains now power threads when we say right. Well this application doesn't need to be processing transactions literally every block maybe owning needs the process transactions. Every ten th block right so instead of a happening every six seconds every minute now. That's perfectly reasonable. Bitcoin doesn't process transactions. You know some of the time takes an hour before transactions. Go through you know on average should be about ten minutes so it's not unreasonable to expect that probably one block in every ten is sufficient for quite a lot of use cases so then we say right well rather than having rather than having this application just constantly always taking up one of these processing slots even maybe it's not that many transactions the process instead what we do is we say right. Well you don't get any like by default but when you're ready to process some some transactions when you've got a and important enough for they've been waiting long enough or whatever then you pay a bit of money but only a little bit and and they get processed you sort of just push them book onto onto the polkadot network and you get a block. There's like you get in one of these polka-dot locks you get your block being processed you get your block. Transactions through give an example of how. Bitcoin only has a block every ten minutes. But what types of projects do you see as wanting like you know to be on a pair of threat as opposed to a pair chain. Can you give some examples. There's a few so one of them will be an oracle so you can imagine there will be some oracle situations that feeding and data from the external world now feeding in a load of data. Every six seconds seems overkill for a lot of talking whether data you don't need to update the weather every six seconds right. Maybe maybe once an hour. I don't know once a day. But yeah definitely. Not every six seconds Five hundred raindrops falling. Four hundred ninety three maure drop civil no so we can imagine the actually with whether it's like know maybe once an hour months every half hour tops and maybe it doesn't matter whether it's literally thirty seconds to the thirty minutes to the after the last that they maybe it's okay for it to be like the thirty one minutes after the last date. There's no huge a huge time deadline. And that would be a really good one for power threads because you know they would just basically have Some amount of of of Of money of tokens whatever that they want to pay in order to get their new block of weather for that date in and then they just wait until the block chain of polkadot is sufficiently unused underutilized and then the their block will go in a little bit like how transactions work in bitcoin and a theory right. Now you've got your you've got transaction fee and maybe it sticks around for block two or three until the minor picks it up because there aren't enough other transactions that paying more so very similar in that regard basically a an adoptive market another use case would be a regional applications so it could be that that has like a us centric or a china centric insurance on. It's like look. People don't claim their insurance mostly at four. Am right mostly any any shit. Going down happens of foreign. Perhaps but the insurance comes a day or two later in daylight hours and so realistically for these kinds of of of regional daylight our use cases. You're going to have like eight ten hours where it's it's people are gonna use it. It's gonna be transactions but the rest of the day the rest of the twenty four hour period. That won't be very much going on and it doesn't make sense therefore to have a have constantly sheduled para chain slot if sixty percent of the time. It's not being used no transact anger and what about pera chains. What are the types of chains that you are envisioning will exist. Well i mean it's going to be an ecosystem. There's going to be a lot of a lot of different things old kind of helping each other to add to to get to the end use cases. Something that seems pretty clear is that we can't jump. Pass this stage. The magic of blockchain isn't really in delivering a specific use case really. Well we've had a lot of time to do that. And nothing's really come through one or two minor exceptions but more or less What were we have seen. Huge hugely promising developments is in the emergent effects of being able to combine multiple use cases the the multiple applications. Let's say multiple solutions In an environment where they can They can form symbiotic. Relationships built on top of each other. I'm provide a composite solution. That no one ever really designed but the the nonetheless you know Fulfill some goal. So you've got the flash loans. You've got like paycheck loans. You bill defy thing happening at the moment. That's that's kind of where. I think where blockchain is is able to provide a a good step forward in providing these Tressler environments why people can be very experimental and deploy interesting use cases the implicit applications interesting bits of code the build upon the form symbiotic relationships with pre-existing bits of and allow others to build upon that So this this is what we call composition and what we call emergent fact and i think I think that's really where things are going to go. So what what kind of parrot change. I mean there's going to be para- chains that want to specialize in smart contracts and for sure just because they're an easy away of developing and deploying stuff than a full-blown blockchain though. Interestingly enough not that much easier. I think we're going to see different Different blockchain's the come with a kind of niche niche applications that they provide plus a small contract component that allows people to sort of extend those applications so at the moment we have in chains like a theory and we have a lot of a lot of smart contracts deployed into them. Each one fulfilling particular niche but none of them have proof non particularly performance on them. Scale well none of them. Really utilizing the computational power of the machines. What i think we're going to end up with is having The smart contract environment primarily used for extent extension act extending the functionality of things but where the the blockchain itself provides the sort of really bread and butter lock for you know doing flash loans for doing the centralized exchanges for transferring funds for governance voting functions. This is this. I think is going to migrate to a more fixed. Part of the blockchain like basically what substrate provides to and the. Yeah the the small contract the sort of fastest fast ration- on contracts where people can develop and deploy very quickly will will be football experimental extent. Extensible stuff so we're gonna have a lot of small a lot of different flavors smart contract chains doing things. You know super diverse stuff. We're going to have oracle change like you're going to be changed the sp- very Specialized to just have data pumped into them. They'll be changed the actuate stuff i think. So you know slack it. I don't know they don't really doing much anymore. But as far as i know. Sorry if you are going. They were hired by blockchain. Llc right so but good example of an actuator weather actually the transactions on blockchain having effects in the physical world. I think we will see these kinds of these kinds of things growing. You know whether it's i mean. Maybe it's home automation. Maybe the a blockchain the transactions like termi- onto my off and the advantage of using blockchain as you get like an indelible ledger of who told your lights to turn off making it sort of more secure making you know but regardless you know actuation blockchain's may well become a thing. I mean obviously those Things like consortium blockchain's blockchain's the powertrains that bring together of a sets of blockchain's we're gonna have bridge chains that allow blockchain's to connect pirate poke and the connect to other networks. Yeah i mean there's there's going to be a law okay. Well one other thing. That i was wondering parashin says when it was doing the research for this i was kind of interested to see that they have expiration dates unless they're extended and if they do expire they go through this retirement period and those who contributed to the crowd get their dots back but just wondering what happens to the smart contracts and other apps on much pitching because like on a theorem. These programs are usually unstoppable. So for instance in oregon will always have a price so in the case of these machines would simply not bills things on pogo dot. Such as oracle's or any other functions that they would expect to exist beyond that time horizon of like six months or two years or whatever it is yeah well okay so the retirement is is an interesting thing so it back to three years ago. Didn't really have a great answer to this question. It was sort of like well if they useful than they'll just have to pay but yeah about a year and a half ago came up with power threads. I think it was a year and a half ago maybe a year ago. Yeah twenty twenty year ago. I'm para threads as i mentioned these pay-as-you-go as you go blocked page ago. Powertrains right. so it's like they don't. They don't do much unless you saw from them. But you only pay for one block time so you only need a few transactions that are Willing to you know paying enough that the rest of the polkadot network doesn't desperately want to use all of the power thread slot and to give some i would expect. They'll probably about fifty free slots for power threats. Every six seconds. So i think with the calculations are done. It's like for for each power thread. Get one block in every ten minutes. Then it's like you can have the three thousand ten thousand or something Power threads that are kind of mostly active. So it's gonna be reasonably cheap. Now the idea is that when you're block on your para chain if you'll paraty in is sufficiently unuseful that you can't collect together the funds for renewing your slot. And it's not that this happens overnight right you get eighteen months in principle you any an eighteen month grace period so you got one and a half years to convince people to make your token worth enough that you can swap enough of for dots to pay for your power chains to lease out your parents now and eighteen months to actually secure that next six month period. So you'll you'll know very much ahead of time if this is coming but that said suppose for some reason. You just can't scrape together the dots. Then you don't just disappear in a puff of smoke with all of your oracle data or anything. Your chain stays active like it sticks around. It's there an oracle would tend to use passive data transfer which basically means you look at the relay chained to see what the last block was fiat for that particular chain. And then you get one of the colitis one of the people who has the blockchain and its information to give you a proof that you know. Hey what was the gold price. Most recently come out with a proof that will use the data on the poco. Don't really chain plus some extra witness some extra data and the fits alongside that and you put them together and you can now be sure that the price of gold according to this powertrain was such and such now This will still work. So in oracle chain wouldn't actually stop working now it just means that that updates wouldn't necessarily be every six seconds it will be as often as as willing to pay for its updates and that's that's basically how it works. It's like you know when you've had a mobile phone contract and it's like you know you're paying per month and you're paying like fifty dollars a month and it's like in the beginning it's okay. But then it kind of drags on it drags on and you're thinking not actually using this fifty dollar a month subscription that much. It's not that useful to me so you you tell them. Look i wanna cancel my subscription. They're like oh well if count persuade you not to keep you subscription then. I'll tell you what you can keep the number. But you'll go on like the pay as you go tariff right so basically just make sure twenty dollars on every six months and you'll be fine. We'll keep you number. Activity can still receive calls and basically it's exactly the same with polkadot if once once your subscription ends if it ends then you just go directly onto the pay-as-you-go version tariff and you you can still keep your chain going. You just have to pay per block. Okay and do you get finality with each block. It's the same is executive in technology. Like okay so one other thing that i wanted to ask about a lot of people. I solicited questions on twitter and people were curious to know how the pera chain will be run and when you'll have them well interesting question i it's it's really difficult to say because our the auction para chains. I don't really want to start the auctions or power chains until pretty solidly shawl the we know when the pirates are going to stop because as soon as you start the ocean you taking people locking up that that dots and it's like well. Yeah they might be next week. It might be next year. It's not a great like things to be locking your dots on right so Powertrain options are going to start once we once we basically have tested para chains on which have network. They're they're also know kasama polkadot would be them out to kasama i because polkadot we. We don't push code on. That is an audited externally by our security company so kasama will be on audited code. That was still reasonably. Sure is okay. But you know it's just for an listeners. Who aren't sure what kasama is is the test network. But there's actual real value being staked on it and the token the assem token has real value so The incentives are all there. And it's like a kind of a true test environment at where you can actually see how the incentives will affect the ecosystem. Well but so before you get into all that like do you want to also talk about the Candle auctions because i think people would be curious to know about those sure. Well now basically the way that the the these auctions work is is that we we didn't want to blockchain's necessarily are these like super open and transparent things everyone can see what's going on all the time and what we what we didn't want was to. Have you know this this game this this sort of auction game where it. I don't know if you ever use the ebay use these days. Everyone just amazon. I'm used in years back in the early days of web. Two i was. I was an avid e of two thousand. Five ish two thousand seven that's of the and and inevitably happened was the last sixty seconds. The price of five dollars slowly climbing up from three dollars three dollars. Forty three five to like five dollars and then the last sixty seconds it'd be like ten fifteen fifty five hundred. It's like okay so it was a ten day auction but actually all of the important bids happened in the last minute now. That's a pretty standard kind of game. Theoretic thing to do you. Basically hold your best bid for the very last point in yorkshire and it's it's kind of rubbish fr- to do that for blockchain because it means you it's not great price discovery people if you hold it for the last minute. Then it's like you might not get it in a miners. Validates can kind of keep them back you know and and if if a few bad validates happens over the last few blocks than maybe a good price when we'll we'll get choked for for about one It's it's sort of fraught with problems. What so what we wanted to do was find a solution for this. It turns out there was already a solution for all history has provided as one so these auctions called candle auctions that the named so because they basically the oceania had a candle next to the calmly was let the beginning of the ocean. People could could could put bids in was an option so anyone can bid anything anytime as long as it's higher than the previous highest bid but when the candle goes out then regardless of whether anyone's go any more bids to add That last bit is the bit. That wins yeah so it's a really good way of making sure. The auctions don't go on forever and there isn't like a group of people like a cabal of people with much higher bids that are just waiting and waiting and waiting until everyone else's is do nothing now. The problem with candle auctions is that e can't handle on a blockchain you even put like an abstract representation of a candle on blockchain. Because you can't end something randomly very very easily. Basically to end something randomly. Someone has to know when it's going to end cause somewhat has the model councilman has to be the the generator for the candle is life. Is the flame gone out yet. And if someone's the it means they got an advantage so instead we do is clever thing where we have a retroactive ending. So the auction ends at the end of some our. My time is broken up into ours and the end of our. We say the auctions ended. But it doesn't literally end that our instead. It ends at some point in the previous hour. So we know it's ended sometime in the last hour but we don't win yet and then we choose a point randomly in that last hour and that point is when the orgeon ended which means there have been possibly other higher bids that have come in since that point because at the end of the hour right but we discussed them and what this means is that even things like smart contracts that you can very easily predict. The behavior of can still have a good chance of getting a a slot. Because even though i might instantly see the smart contracts bid and then bid one hire in the next block it con- it might be the well then. This contract may be bids up in the block after that. And i did so i might be a bidding war with a smart contract but that still means that every other block the small contract will will be the winning one at that point and then it's like a fifty fifty chance whether it's the smart contract told me because it's a block chosen at random in the last hour so it might be. One of. the smart contract was winning but it might be on where i'm winning now. Normally you won't be able to do that because I would just always be checking smart contract bidding one up and by the time ended i would i would be bidding one beyond the contract but because we end a random time we can. We can avoid that. 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Btc and more than twenty other coins wants an app. You can apply for the crypto dot com medal card which pays up to eight percent cashback instantly reserve years now in the crypto dot com app and one other thing that i was curious about. Is that each pair chain is paid for via this auction. And as far as i understand there isn't payment for gas metering. So then how do you prevent dido's attacks on a specific parent chain. Yeah it's Basically we leave as a problem for the powertrain. It's we don't want to force power chains into a particular model for how they measure or charged for transactions. What we instead do is say look enough. Violators agree that your block. Your power chain block. is verifiable holiday to execute -able basically can be can be could be Run in a particular period. Two seconds i think at the moment so it's like a third of the six second block time and as long as that's the case then we don't care how you how you how you manage your transactions you manage your users you manage any of your blockchain logic to make sure it fits in the two seconds. If for some reason it doesn't then it's the block isn't going to get in. Maybe you're next block hill get in maybe some some other kalita. Some of the block producer will come up with a block. The the takes less than two seconds. But the point is that We don't want to be more abstract more general so a more general way of the counting gas which is a very specific way of working out how to make sure that blocks don't take too long you don't get a more general way is just say well. Well we don't care like as long as it happens in two seconds. We don't care. How are you managing so alternative. Ways of managing would just be voting for example or to not have transactions or half transactions but have a very simple way of measuring not not gas just saying well. there's only one kind of transaction transferred transactions so it might be like a plasma kind of chain it's just super transfer oriented and we we. Don't we know that every transfer only takes how ever many point one milliseconds something and we. We just make sure that you can't have more than twenty two five ten thousand and twenty thousand twenty million twenty thousand twenty thousand Of them in a in a in. And then you don't need gus county. You don't need dynamic resource Measurement now of course for smart contracts. If you wanna have smart contracts be very general. I'm very deterministic beneath. Probably still want this. But the point is that you don't need it in every circumstance and there are lots of use cases where you know but more simple than the smart contracts use case where a you really don't need that level of complexity and the performance hit that you take from it so by pushing by allowing blockchain power chains to decide their own way of being of keeping this to second enforcement We allow them to all sorts of of more flexibility and potentially performance benefit. Okay you've come up with a concept called initial parachuting offerings. How do these differ from initial coin offerings and also in particular. How do these avoid the regulatory problems that ics had in the us. Well we we. We don't really. We haven't done much legal research on on. I mean i think we're trying to peel or something power chain lisa offerings but anyway is already upset. Then it's like trying to not sound like but anyway yeah. Can you describe what they are. But yeah so. I the thing about power chain leases. Is we call it. Like crowd loaning so it's like crowd funding but instead of instead of just handing over your your your hard earned cash and getting something back maybe a product or token or one of its only alone. So you lock your Your thoughts or your kasama same for some period of time and you can choose like you know ahead of time how long it is so that you don't choose yourself rather the the team chooses might say well. We only did it for six months. After six months will have launched our token. We'll have a we'll have uses will be very clearly a good use case and we will then work out other funding mechanisms. Probably selling our own tokens into market. It is and for dots and then using those dots. That would be pretty obvious way of doing but that initial six months you probably you may well need to go to go to others go dot holders and say look you know loners long as the dots release would you please. And that's what this is for so it's crowd loan asking dot holders to put the dots in for a fixed period of time now. This loan this crowd loan is kind of like staking. Its handled entirely by the poco relay chain and then probably over time that will migrate into power chain. Because we don't really all of this complex stuff on on the religion but you don't have to trust the team with a that's the main thing right. You're loaning the dots into polkadot. The relay chain. And it's they just kind of reserved. They don't even really leave your account but still kind of on your account on the certainly still on the chain and you can always check the logic of the chain to see yes. They're very much associated with the account. You have three and a half months to go. Then they'll be back spendable by you from your account on it's Yeah it's like it's a bit like using the staking system. The only difference is not producing any returns like the do with staking system but presumably the team. That is the ask you to loan these these dots for their initial para chain that pertain lease planning to reward your contribution you alone with well. I don't have something on that chain. Perhaps one might imagine some of their own tokens. But i mean. I don't want to the straitjacket these guys. Maybe they've got some other thing going. Maybe as not chain and they're giving you a free tickets to a gig. I dunno but could be all sorts of things so yeah main main takeaway is there was no transfer for value and this right then all the teams and getting anything from from the crowd right. The crowd of just kind of looking up tokens with a guaranteed guaranteed by the protocol. That these tokens coming back in a particular time period now again. We haven't consulted anyone of any notes legal or otherwise on this and how it might be different but in my layman opinion I i would think that the having you know having just that literally be looking up. Some tokens for some period. That you definitely get back later with zero risk. Zero additional risk isn't really kind of anything you know it's it's like shaking and that's not really a thing right. It's rewarding is a thing perhaps and might have some knock on effect but but locking up. It's not a thing as opposed to value transfer into some other entity. Which very much is a thing. That's a definite thing. So i think by moving away from the value. Transfer interests into a guaranteed lockup situation with a guaranteed return. Unlock date. I think that may well Move it into a to be viewed by various organizations as a as a non oven basically. Okay well there are people who work at the sec. Listen to my show so we may find out so dot has unchained governance. Can you do a brief description of how that works. One that i find interesting about it. Is that proposals that pass get automatically executed and your theory is that this will prevent forks which i find fascinating so maybe you can also talk about that sure. Well okay. so let's let's let's move. this from. the meta pros was mentioned earlier. This meta protocol right webassembly. This light low level language basically machine language on which we can describe and define the polkadot protocol on the kasama protocol and the at joy personal the movie the centrifuge protocal. I call it. Practical all these protocols and they're all built on this matter broke goes webassembly based metaphysical. Now you've got a problem. The problem is how do you know when to change. Vertical like what governs that. What decides that so you can say well you know there's there's A team and the ceo and the a key and they can just change the protocol with a key. But it's not really the spirit of decentralized blockchain scene is very good on stuff and of course it has big problems which is well what if the ceo loses thinking. What if the year goes mad so we need a better way normally decentralized decision making criteria so we have multi signatures. We have voting. We try and bring out. Plural is the mechanism. That's all that's all well and good. But then how do you make sure that this mechanism is respected. Like if it's more than just literally a single key that is trivial to sort of respect and you can build it into the software for example. Then how do we ensure that everyone is on the same page. We have this consensus problem. So this is why. This is another reason why we metapolitical. The meta protocol allows for us to alter the protocol according to the rules of the protocol. And that's why we have this the governance shore but also the The enactment all the decision coming from the governance. We have like you have this this situation in the in the us at the moment with a lack of consensus on the one side which is most of the news outlets out of seventy four percent. Eighty percent of the population and I don't know a lot of a lot of people on twitter all saying well obviously joe biden when the election and then on the other side. You've got you've got the president himself and a lot of a lot of voices behind him. Say well actually. No didn't trump won the election where we have a lack of consensus over the government's process itself and this this obviously is problematic and kind of problematic kind of kind of one of the ways because the reason it's problematic is caused the it's not clear people are asking well what exactly governs the transition versus. How do we know when like who should be an expert if there if there isn't consensus who make sure that the government is indeed the government that was that was elected if we can't decide who was elected and that that isn't just whoever's in the white house cubans well doesn't seem like what if what if the doesn't want to leave the white house that what happens. We we have this constitutional crisis and and this is why we need to. This is why it's important to have an absolute nightmare like we. This is why it's important to tie the enactment of the decision to the decision making process itself and make the decision making process. As sort of the enforcer as it were or at least part of the enforcement now do we don't like there isn't like an independent election commission that has the power to to put to. Both you know managed the election and put in the new president that doesn't exist right. it's sort of the old president just should gets out of the way. It wasn't really answered by the people who drew up the constitutions. Of course the old president should just get out of the way. I understand the analogy but just yeah so anyway. The tying together the governance the decision making process and the means by which the decision off the that comes from that person should be enacted is is really critical in any system whether it's spoke at all or anything else and that's what were that's what we do and the reason that we can do it is because we have this meta protocol lamp. The metaphorical doesn't change but it does given and execute the decision making process. So it's like the metapolitical is the thing that sort of runs the governance systems people. Vote on what they think. The next iteration approach be or should do or how it should change whether books are fixed where there should be other should be. I don't know rescues or any kind of re remunerations compensations out of order transfers. Whatever it is but they that that metapolitical laya also givens. What the protocol is which means it can enact any of those decisions I mean any any. Maybe i don't wanna i wanna time myself with words but like most the vast vast vast majority of protocol changes that that we can ever envisage the need to do this meta protocol layer can allow for them to happen and that means that we never come out of consensus now with just the compared to other blockchain systems. You got folks so your hard fox. That's how we change the the the means of consensus. That's how change the protocol right. Now the problem is that what if what if what if we can't decide on what if i don't know fifty five percent votes to go this way. Forty five percent votes to go that way. What does it mean. We should go with a fifty five percent. But theoretically i means. Yeah i guess depends. What's the governance mechanism. What's the decision making criteria if there isn't one if it's like We consensus then. Then there's no way of deciding you're in this kind of grey zone where yeah there's a. There's a majority of the strict majority but there isn't like a way of actually deciding because no one's actually agreed on how we decide. And that's that's you know famously happened with the classic with ethereal. At the time there wasn't a kasich and percent of the voters at least wanted to do the rescue ten percent didn't and the thompson who didn't carried on regardless and hence heath cross it was born on. Its these schisms. I mean you can argue. You can argue schisms or a good thing. I mean i think it's a very very questionable position to be in for sure schisms and not a indefinitely. Good thing because you you them into a thousand brazilian fragments. Then of them are going to be known them gonna have any uses so obviously. Yeah maybe some things do get sufficiently beg the so many differing points of view will maybe two very large camps that are sufficiently different in our outlook. You do need to do need to fragment a little but schisms cannot solve everything and if the they solve anything and it's this is the way that we avoid schisms by allowing people to come together to have a forum where opinions can be add and then to have a decision making mechanism that everybody buys into an everyone is behind the eventual outcome of. That's why that's why democracies have not schism discussions over the centuries that we've had them it's because we have you know we have elections and people accept the you know in an election. You have you have you vote. You have the time to forum. You have time to ask your opinion. You have the time to listen to others opinions. But at the end of the day your vote and then there's an outcome and if the outcome isn't the same way that you voted it's like maybe next time but process let's also talk about security parody has a history of well-known security lapses namely the hacks of the parody multi wallet the first of which resulted in the siphoning of funds for some major issues and the second of which froze half a million now the security for polkadot will be managed by the base layer chain so if something goes wrong there than the security for all the parent chains will be at risk. What do you say to people who are concerned about the security of of polkadot as a company and as team We have altered quite a lot since way back when we were doing The poverty wallet. I mean most of that code was done in two thousand sixteen ish and poverty at that point hot. No we will. Just get giving out free software. It was like coding. This stuff under the gp al no warranty. We didn't have the resources to be doing. You know huge amounts of auditing. We didn't have the resources to be paying very expensive. I would add. External teams extended experts at security to be looking at so really it was like a quid pro quo. It's like look codes here but you've got to kind of look at it now with polkadot. That's obviously changed a little. We we have had some not insubstantial income from the From the crowd sale The ball private actually sale that we've been doing and so it's with this We actually have the resources to do Sort of proper both internal audits which is actually think really very important and often will show because people internally have usually a deeper understanding of technologies involved often show like some of the more tricky books but also external audits. I the polkadot Code base itself went through. I think four separate external audits from four top tier am security auditors including one which was a red audit. So it's like basically this this top level attack team who were just. They're attacking attacking summer. Actually there are actually trying to. I don't know if they were. They were gonna black hat. Take it down but they were. They were attempting to find holes in it right and you know. Ultimately the delivery of software comes down to confidence. How confident argued that. What you're delivering is reasonably book free and you can never be one hundred percent confident it. It's too complicated. It's like i mean spoke at all in particular is really quite complicated more so than theory but regardless it's still even even even a theory even like relatively constrained pieces of software contain books built by people on people make mistakes and people make mistakes when the looking other people's stuff and teams of people make mistakes you can keep up one hundred codes and ask them to find books in particular Piece of software. But you know that will that will probably be books left after all one hundred of how to look at them if you are on utterly mission critical systems programming then you'll probably have multiple teams each independently implementing stuff. And you'll you'll have some way of like combining all of their implementations such that any individual book doesn't actually result in in in the problem manifesting itself now and that's that's also an avenue that we've gone that we have to external teams So not parody. Other completely of the teams chain safin sarah mitsu that are implementing polkadot in independently from us. So we're going down that route as well we've got like huge amounts of external audits We have a continuous external audit process. So we actually have a company one of our basically the security company that were one of the four th that we had audit polkadot in the first place constantly. Auditing the polkadot. Kobe's constantly looking out for books checking new code. We have a rule. The basically no new runtime code gets into polkadot unless it's been audited the only The exception to that is if it's like really trivial like basically a number changed or some variable was renamed but basically old code all significant changes that go into polka-dot thirst half they get audited. Nothing goes on the chain until it's been audited. So i mean while i can't say well polka dots book free because it's a huge piece of software made by humans. It's we saw now taking every precaution. The we reasonably can in order to make sure that that doesn't happen now on top of that we also have which means that In principle if we can agree that this was a book and it's it really ought to be very clear very clear manifestation for example. Someone's funds get locked indefinitely and you can't. You can't unlock them directly. But it's very clear that is their funds. It's very clear that there's one key and only one key that controls these funds. Then it's and you. Can you know and the governance of polkadot. So the the assembled stakeholders whether it's through a referendum or via the council in polka dots governance cases like both asked via the council into a referendum that everyone gets a chance to vote on it if the assembled stakeholders decide actually yeah. We should fix this. We should you know whatever. Unlock these funds. Transfer back or whatever it is then it will happen and that can't happen on chains without governance. Yeah sounds like this is born out of your experience. You'll have our Drivers yeah so speaking of a theory of if you're obviously is the leader at the moment in kind not maybe exactly the same space that polkadot compete but very similar space. How do you view polkadot as coexisting with volume. I mean this depends a lot on on the driving factors behind a theory. I said very early on In polka dots. I think is like twenty two thousand eighteen. It was the denver. The dot com Polka dots a bat against or verb at against blockchain. Maximum like really with polkadot. I wanted to make a network of networks. I didn't want blake b. I want to try and solve all of the problems with one. China think theorem certainly some of the some of the narrative surrounding a theory is less should only be one blockchain though. Do you have ever needs to be one chain Theorem at aaron confessed everything. That's not a narrative that i ever really bought into And i don't think it's a super sensible narrative. I think I think if if ends up becoming a a chain that is sort of bridgeable I think I think that it's a very good chance that polkadot theory will just kind of happily sort of coexist with logic and value flowing between the two very easily now looking at some of Already looking at each twos sort of specifications consensus mechanism and how it might eventually pan out because of course eath to is Only has its beacon chain the moment. So there's no there's no state transitioning really on it. There's no the suddenly shots or anything happening. In that regard so still a long way to go before we can be sure precisely what eventual technical architecture will be but my hope is that it will become it will become something that we can very easily interface with and then from in that way half the to cooperate and and former sort of much bigger ecosystem. Yeah i mean it's already. I feel kind of rolling out the red carpet for builders and users currently on a theory because moon beam has these unified accounts which let people use their theory. Mattresses on polkadot. They also have the same tooling as a theorem does and substrate of course makes possible. Use the exact same code that adapt has on a theory him but on polkadot. And yet as you pointed out there is this strain of tribalism or even maximalism. Maybe you might say in theory. And so what do you plan to do. A theorem users and builders to polkadot and overcome that tribalism. I you know one of the big pushes of polkadot was bridges on. I mean this this this predates polka party. The did the poverty bridge a like a while before early. Two thousand sixteen we started work on remember rightly so connectivity trying to bring together different chains disparate systems into into one functional. Economy has always really been something that i've been interested something that parity the policy of wanted to do and You know i really want to. That's really one of the key features if you like of pocono one of the things that it was designed around. Pocono really isn't fundamentally of bridge. Bridging thing it is something that bridges can very easily be developed on four. And something that we're already doing ourselves. So yeah i mean i. I hope that bridging. I'm compatibility will be very key factors in In in basically creating a more. It's not. It's not about drawing people over necessarily but creating a more let's say fluid ecosystem grazing a a very fluid matter ecosystem of blockchain so people can deploy an application in one chain but not be constrained to that chain too then maybe deploy a sort of secondary application in another chain and become multi chain up kind of like a multinational company. You know the the the more that we can do to ensure the chains are the applications that teams don't and not bound into just the single blockchain the better and that's that's obviously very important for polkadot as we are coming up this as a as a as a you know a really chain whose main reason of existence is to connect all of these little para chains and an also external trends. And no would you ever do anything. Like i dunno liquidity mining or any kind of incentive to attract people to polkadot Maybe we'll see at the end of the day. Polkadot can only exist. if it's useful for it's become useful it needs needs teams. And so it's not that i i don't want to like i don't want to pretend that you know it's Polkadot sort of buddhist monk of the ecosystem that sorta just gonna take a beating and keep them smiling. Not really but but i think there is a I think there is a sort of middle ground. A is very let's say mutually enlightened self interest position that allow that allows us to allows basically all of the chains the sort of come together and Cooperate coordinate their ecosystems and allow free trade allow allow people the opportunity to to move around allow teams the good teams to deploy across across chains across power chains across ecosystems. So i i don't wanna say that we're not. We're not going to compete. Of course countries within the european union compete in many respects with each other. But you know there are. There are still really valid reasons for the european union to exist. And i think the same is true for different for an ecosystem to be built a multi chain ecosystems go so there's also a trend toward transactions that are composed of all at least in the world and by that we mean that one transaction can include multiple contract calls within a single block but as far as i understand it in polkadot when you send messages between para chains. They can't happen. The the transactions can happen in the same block so there can't be these instantaneous contract halls across shards and not of course then breaks compose ability. And so you know there are a lot of things. Like flash loans or atomic swaps. Wouldn't really work. Cross chain is composed ability. Something that polkadot is working toward. Yes so those two main the two main things so that dot on the face of it is is right but there's a couple of a couple of mitigating factors to this one of them is that compose ability is likely to be mostly a thing within a single chains ecosystem so tightly bound smart contracts the do things like flash loans are likely to be within the same defy ecosystem moonbeam collar or whatever it is. That's that's that's one of the reasons why you would want things to be constrained within a within a single trade now the other the other mitigating factor is ultimately. What we want to do is have a synchronous contract calling now. This would allow basically is for in the in the programming model in the execution model. It would appear as though when you when you send a transaction off it sort of comes back instantaneously when you send a message off to make a flashlight on whatever it is it comes back instantaneously but in reality it gets the sort of executing context the thing that's the thing that's like taking the flash loan actually is halted is paused for a little a short period of time while the message goes away onto perhaps another chain. It gets executed. The flush learn comes through it goes back again carries on executing and so now this requires some some interesting and not entirely trivial alterations mutational model and we just be clear. Then that takes three blocks and so it's like an eighteen second transaction yup. Okay i mean it may take depends whether it's going all the way into another powertrain or whether staying within the powertrain but the it may take one block it may take to make three. It's it depends on a few factors but it made it. Maybe as much as three now this. The flash like it's not clear precisely what the use cases will be if it's a theory style flash low and then yeah maybe you do want to have it on the single chain. Now it's worth pointing out of course that all all multi shot architectures. We'll we'll have this issue like all multi shot architectures that expect to be able to call across shards as easily as they call into their own. Shot will will have to deal with the fact that going across the shot introduces latency. Can't be handled within the same block So it's not clear how other multi shot architectures like to a handle this either if one gave everyone a free pass because it's not scalable. Yeah if you so if you if you constrain everything into the same blockchain like wanders then problem solved Which is the position that moonbeam caller and edge were already in on polkadot. If you want to spread things out between chains operate in parallel to each other and therefore cat scale ability then you will have to deal with the fact that things don't get process. There's a hole in one block and That's just the that's a fundamental with computer science. Logic max you can't you can't get around it by some clever programming trick but if you introduce things like asynchronous calls to it then you can kind of massage. The situation bit mitigate some of the issues that you might face if a component the composed with of the chain now. The only other thing is that compose ability doesn't just compose abilities about being in the same execution environment. There are all sorts of ways of composing things. That don't require that example when you want to do an insurance contract you need. An oracle for whatever. Physical phenomenon is ensuring against the sure they that oracle doesn't need to be on the same chain as the insurance contracts. It's enough just to provide a proof from other chain that the ensure that that oracle said that the weather was really but there was a huge storm. Houses got knocked down in your area like that can be done. As a proof you feed onto the chain the is the is providing the financial compensation. And it's enough right does no need to be on tonight. It's only this specific. Ethereal sort of defy where they've made use of the fact that it's all on the same chain and therefore you can do this all has to be done within a single block very easily. That's not limit as not fundamental limit. Compose ability can happen even if it doesn't all happen in the same lower. The web for reform nation has thirty percent of dots. and i'm not sure what amount parody has some. You can fill us in on how the web three foundation and parody plan to use their collective stake within the network. Will you participate in parenting auctions. For instance. I don't think so i we don't have we don't have. We have less than that. I don't have the numbers to hand but it's not. It's not thirty three. Well i i mean according to massari that's where i got the thirty percent from three hundred and it was like twenty nine point seven percent or something well we we A lot of thought has been like so that thirty percent figure from the original The original document has been eaten calculated according to the current supply. I did the math on my phone. Okay the current supply math is but it's substantially less than than thirty percents Caused some of that went to Companies doing that building polka-dot like piracy some of that But also like you know chain safin and some of it went three to grant companies some went through to auditors isola- very isolated that we have as are the software agreements So and then. Of course there's employee by in schemes and all that stuff so that that all comes out of that chunk of but anyway aside from that we don't plan on on putting a para chains like purchasing power chain leases with it. It's not that's not really what we're what we're in for. That's that dot. The foundation is keeping is really just a long-term alignment mechanism so the foundation like has benefit if tokyo does well able therefore to do more and the main thing. It's it's it's it's going into grants it's going into keeping the foundation running which means you know managing Various ongoing legal and regulatory affairs continuing to manage things like adoption outreach. And what kind of stuff as well as research foundation runs its research off it The that's the main thing it does do staking but actually relatively little these days It's Most the dot dot most of the staking about the vast majority will end up going to the polka dots The one thousand validates program so basically trying to get as many validates as in as possible. Bill really a validation and which is will soon be if it isn't announced yet. Soon be announced. This right on the cusp and the kasama very similar to kasama so the foundations. Kscm stashes also much engaged in the one thousand validated program. Yeah and it's really we we try not. We don't tend to vote either. If a vote is down to the wire then we'll probably take a tiebreaking position but we try and keep We try and keep our dot out of the an kasama out of the sort of general sort of governance. Okay so we're we're basically at time. But i'm gonna just ask you two more questions and let's we'll try to speaks in june. Before polka dots may net launch preliminary draft by the crypto ratings council gave dots a higher risk of being labeled securities of four point. Seven five on a scale of five with five meaning. The asset has quote many characteristics trawling consistent with treatment as a security again. This is preliminary. There hasn't actually been a formal rating. That's been issued. What do you plan to do to address. The possibility that dots could be deemed a security. It's opposition but dogs are absolutely not a security and Very clearly a utility like use them to get power trades powertrains over very clear utility So we know there is no way that we could imagine a world where dots were labeled as a security the You know these guys take into account loss of factors one of which was that the dot network was not live at the point that they that they Publish this pre publication non opinion And not may well have contributed significantly to this to this not quite school. I i would expect that any later. Reasonable appraisal Particularly wants power chains are launched will be quite different polka-dot enables public and private chains to interact with each other and china's blockchain based service network recently adopted polkadot. How do you imagine it will serve the enterprise world and how will being on pogo died. Which has this ability to communicate with public pair of benefit. Enterprise blockchain's i think. Connectivity is super important for enterprise enterprise blockchain's now. I think i might be with a lot of enterprise people. But i'll tell you why enterprise is a great the internet's of the early nineties. They they have a very clear value proposition for enterprises in this in this world right now in this sort of traditional mindset. It's like yeah you know you can track all of the internal transactions. I can make sure no one is is cheating on that that audits he can very easily order everything that's going on within a company and And that's that level of transparency is very Can be very sort of Persuasive especially when the when you're someone at the top to make decisions and it's taina difficult to see below one level of management below. You dot will work. Initially in the same way that the old intranet allowed office memos to go back and forth much more easily than farting around with bits of paper. But what really made internet's be useful is the fact that the internet was eventually connected to an internet that allowed offices of different companies to send memo memos tweet email and then they start to be able to advertise through each other the worldwide web and they said to be able to interact with consumers via the world wide web. And to be asked. This is this was a super important progression and we wouldn't have had the later stages without the first state. So i can imagine that enterprises sukey building blockchain for that that company. Maybe that multinational lots of different sort of arms maybe a conglomerate. Maybe it's actually different companies but the same overrule aligned incentives. Maybe the overall owner the same. Maybe it's between a consortium so no no real align incentives but a general assumption that you kind of looking in the same space and probably do won't to sort of communicate with each other a lot but when we eventually get to the point that companies are offering their services through very minimal cost Extremely agile transaction based network that doesn't need any certificates or a middle man or any additional visa fees or anything like this when it's literally just business to business doing microtransactions with each other. Maybe it's for data maybe it's for permissions to use some particular online system. Who knows it doesn't doesn't really matter. But when we get to this point dot. Connectivity will be priceless because it will allow composition of solutions and as we saw with defy composition of solutions is really where the goal is to be all right great. Well this has been such a fabulous discussion. And i hope people. I did see a few questions about kasama. i'm just with so much to cover. We didn't get everything quickly. But i did say it's like the test network. And there is actual value with their own tokens so I you know hopefully people can read more about it is it is very interesting. That polkadot has a both of these networks live event. Thank you again so much. And i look forward to seeing what happens on dot mike. Flora is interesting took.

blockchain blockchain six seconds One inch one inch oracle Bitcoin bitcoin Laura shin polkadot seven billion dollars five ten years medha ten minutes Gavin pera missoula six months thirty one minutes eight ten hours
Your Time is An Account With An Unknown Balance

Developer Tea

12:57 min | 1 year ago

Your Time is An Account With An Unknown Balance

"Each day you are living piece of your life if you were to think about time as a currency your currency is always flowing out you have an account and that account has a certain amount of time in it but you don't know how much is in that account and so it makes sense to spend that account in a way that feels purposeful to you. That's likely why you are listening to this. Podcast in the first place because you want to do something. Meaningful purposeful fulfilling. Whatever word you use to describe using that time in a way that you don't feel that you've squandered it in today's episode. We're going to do three things. I I'm going to share a concept the you can carry forward with you into your career and the rest of your life going to give you one exercise that you can try and finally. I'm going to ask you one question. All three things are pointed at helping you find ways to spend your time more purposefully. My name is Jonathan Control. You're listening to develop not go on the show up driven developers Accu- find clarity perspective and purpose in their careers. I WanNa get something out of the way here. Because I think a lot of people take episodes like this and they forced them into a reasoning or justification for trying to optimize every single minute of their lives for some kind of output. This can lead to overwork. He can lead to a lot of anxiety about the fact that we are limited on time and it can lead us to live lives that we ultimately don't even like very much. There's a difference in living a life. That feels purposeful feels meaningful and living a life of scarcity. A life of scarcity is driven by the idea that everything is running out that. There's not enough of anything and we have to fight to be able to have what we need or what we want. And the Intro of this episode depending on the way that you relate to this idea the answer to this episode might trigger that built in model the you may have of scarcity that scarcity mentality that you might already have and this is not the intention of this episode instead and winter to think about your time as something that is abundant not scarce. And not in the sense that you have all the time in the world but rather that each moment you do have is full of potential and meaning and every experience you have in front of you and every experience that you have behind you you can find meaning in so a lot of this is about how you relate to those experiences more than it is necessarily about changing those experiences so with that in mind. Let's jump into the first concept that I want to challenge you with today and this is a model of thinking that you might use when you're prioritizing whatever it is that you're going to do a given day or even a larger level on a quarter or a yearly basis and this certainly applies across entire decades of your life and it's very simple. The concept is this. I do only what only you can do. Think about this. Her second I do only what only you can do. So it's helpful to sit down and think through this may be right out notes a framework of thinking about all the different roles that you fill in your life and in each role. There's likely something that only you can do a lot of things that only you can do are related to taking care of yourself for example. No one else can exercise for you. No one else can learn new skills for you. No one else can fill the shoes that you fill in all of those key relationships in your life now not everything They only you can do is worth prioritizing but the things that only you can do that are important are things that you might consider to be higher priority. Some of the most consistent advice that you will hear from people who have reached high levels of success is that they wish they had taken time to do exactly this to take care of themselves because no one else can do that for them to spend time in those relationships because no one else can do that for them and this isn't just limited to your personal life. This isn't just about this isn't intended to be a motivational speech to go. And get you to connect to those meaningful things in your life. This can also be about the tactical things the work in your life for example unless we totally changed the model of this show. No one else can record this podcast for me now. Here's a bonus. Thought that you might want to consider when you get this list nailed down of things that only you can do. It might be useful to you to consider if there are too many things on that list or they're things that don't have to be on that list in other words. You might have things on this list. That are not fundamentally restrained to only you. They may be elected restraints things that you could delegate if you were to prioritize this list and cut out the bottom half of it how would your life change? Admittedly this is an over concept. The contributions that I provide in my day to day job. Someone else could probably do that job. But that doesn't mean I can simply cut it out because by doing that job. I am doing something else by proxy that only I can do but this model of thinking does reinforce some very important thought patterns for example. No one else can enjoy your life for you and this is kind of the point of thinking in the scarcity model and squandering our time only to work sometimes the resource of time. That's flowing out of that Undetermined account that. You have sometimes. The best thing you can do might be considered totally unproductive. We're GONNA take a quick sponsor break and then I'm going to come back and give you one exercise and one question then. We'll hope you think about your time a little bit differently. Today's episode is sponsored by oxy. Labs oxy labs provides a real time crawler a web scraper residential and data center proxies labs now introducing next generation residential proxies a significantly improved data gathering solution with the next generation proxies you get thirty million global. Ip actually over thirty million global IP addresses these are resource-efficient and everything is handled on oxy labs side for example user agents and IP rotation. All of this helps you keep your scraping live. However you are gathering your data through scraping oxy labs can help oxy. Labs provides deep understanding in knowledge on how to acquire web data as a service. They have dedicated account managers for every client. And they're already trusted by over. Five hundred companies for initiatives like sales intelligence market research seo monitoring and more visit oxy labs dot co slash developer. Tha that's oxy labs dot I O. Slash developer T to find out more about the services and apply for a free trial of the next generation residential proxies thanks again oxy laps for sponsoring today's episode of Developer T. So I have an exercise and a question to ask you to help you think about your time this account that we've been talking about a little bit differently. I I want you to think about your day the day this coming up today. If you're listening to the morning or consider tomorrow below your calendar if you can and figure out the different transitions that you're going to have for example. Very simple transitions might be waking up and getting out of bed for me. One of my transitions is going downstairs and making some coffee transitions between meetings or from lunchtime. Back into work all of these moments that are kind of between events in a given day and everyone has different transitions. Another important transition for me is the moments between When I get off of work and when I pick up my children from school and these transitions are critical. Because so many times we mindlessly allow our thinking and our kind of trailing thought processes to leak from one event into the other and so not only are we distracted by whatever it is that we were doing but we also can't bring with us the right mindset for the thing that we're about to do very often. This is why things tend to go faster than you expect him to. Because by the time you are present by the time your mind has caught up to the fact that you're on to the next thing it's time to prepare to go to the next thing. So here's what I'd like for you to do as an exercise and you can practice this now. Consider this episode this podcast a transition from the first part of your day into the next part of your day. Take a moment to totally calm your mind. This is not the easiest thing to do. It's it's hard to stop thinking about. Whatever it is that you're thinking about but try to let this thoughts go and be mindful for a moment if you've ever practiced meditation. This is kind of like a mini version of that. So what does it mean to be mindful while one way that you can do? This is to focus on releasing the muscular tension. In your body. You can start with your feet where you can start with your shoulders or your face and once you become mindful of the tension. That's there you might be surprised that you're holding that tension to begin with other mindful techniques are focusing on the breath or perhaps of visualization. We've done visualizations on this show before but it doesn't have to be a prolonged thing really. You're just trying to kind of clear your mind so you can ask yourself this question and this is the question that I'm going to leave you with in today's episode. The question is simple. What do I want to bring into the next part of my day? What do I want to bring into the next part of my day? This can be feeling sick. Can Be emotions as can be energy and excitement. It can be intention very rarely. Are you going to say that you went to drag along something that you've left behind something that you didn't finish that's lingering in your mind very rarely? Will you answer this question by saying I'd like to continue thinking about something else? Most of the time. If we think about this question we really do want to be present in the moment is how we arrive at an abundance mindset rather than a scarcity mindset. What can we do to make the most of the next moments Pera lives? Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of developer. T thank you again to oxy. Labs for sponsoring. Today's episode had Vertu Oxy Labs Dot. Io Slash Developer T. That's all one word. Oxy LABS DOT IO slash developer t to find out more and apply for a free trial. Today's episode was produced by Sarah Jackson. My name is Jonathan Cottrell. And it's all next time. Enjoy your TV.

oxy developer Vertu Oxy Labs Dot Accu Jonathan Control Sarah Jackson Jonathan Cottrell Pera
36 - Eastern Washington and More

Lumpy's Sports Show Podcast

14:39 min | 10 months ago

36 - Eastern Washington and More

"They what's happened in everybody. Welcome back to another edition of Lombi's sports podcasts. I appreciate you all listening each week. That you do. This week's episode will be another Washington Football podcast for the most part along with some college football So we're going to get right to the show so this week's eastern game. I did not watch. It was on local TV. But I was busy watching the huskies. I don't have the channel that the eastern game was on. I was not in person this week as it was miserable. Here in Cini area Thirty five degrees in snowing and I stay the hell away from those types of games. I'm a warm weather person. It was crazy cold and snow like I said for a game in September This is the first time in almost one hundred years at Spokane area has gotten snow in September. That tells you thanks so out and Chini. Thirty five degrees snow in twenty mile an hour winds doesn't add up to very fun time watching the game and it was a struggle for the teams even though the final score being thirty five to twenty eastern over number twenty five. North Dakota It was still just reading about it and and listening to some of the the postgame stuff that I did. It didn't sound like the most exciting game Because of the coldness there wasn't a lot of Passing going on. Say especially from eastern side Barrier only had a hundred and I think it was forty three yards. I saw on fifteen total passes. But you know from the weather So in a in a nutshell eastern they jumped out to a twenty eight to seven lead at halftime and that was in in particular because of overall North Dakota head six turnovers and gave up five sacks so a lot of the times in the first half the offense that has been struggling for the last two plus games overall Was able to make some short short field touchdowns in the first half which is good to see. I mean lease. They capitalize on the mistakes of North Dakota but the score up but after that they were outscored. Thirteen seven second half another stagnant offensive show in the second half But they kept pounding the ball pound the ball. I mean eastern didn't give up a turnover so that's very cool. That's very good offensively in this weather to not give up a turnover you know. It's a little bit harder to do. When he only throw fifteen passes but as much as they ran the ball That's cool to see. That's the ball. Production is Very good to see out of them Like saying they ran the ball in the team ended up with two hundred eighty four yards rushing. Kester had one hundred thirty four yards on three touchdowns very good very good impressive running day for them An Pera Pera Pariah. I'm not sure on his pronunciation. He said a true freshman that got his first role playing time this year. And he he ran for one hundred twenty nine yards and a touchdown. So that's good For from all reports it sounds like the offensive line and defensive. Line were stepping up. Which they've struggled mightily Especially in that Idaho game it was. It was rough There's no running game for to say and the pass protection was was pretty bad unfortunately so it was cool to see that a the head. Two hundred eighty four yards rushing is usually means that your offensive line was doing that part of their blocking scheme very well and the D. Line five sacks the defense in general creating six versus very positive and very cool. He's got figure out what's going on the offense overall They they just kind of. It appears to fall in and out of it depending on which half the half of a game that that they struggle so. I'm not sure what's going on with that so very exciting that you know filing planning Big Sky Competition which. I'm going to rant on that for minute. How the Hell is North Dakota Conference game a team that is realistically playing the Missouri Valley Starting next year. How is this game conference game in the Idaho? Game is not common sense tells you that it should have been the opposite way. But whatever we move on just stupid. How the Big Sky figuring out what was accomplished camera was not not just for Eastern. But for everyone in this conference North Dakota's plan. I think I read five. Big Sky Games because of the scheduling. In in the time it takes to trance transition in and out of upper levels and different conferences. But it's baffling but eastern one or no big sky super good We're like that Time to get rolling through this conference and still have a shot to go through the playoffs because if they struggle and conference games It is going to be damn near if they if they lose one. Maybe one game they might be able to get away depends on how many teams go into through conference season with one loss. Because there's thirteen team still in this conference and so not everybody plays each but everyone and it's just goofy so you could have a bunch of one loss teams that don't make it to the playoffs and in two thousand fourteen playoff. It's pretty hard to do. The Big Sky Downs. Get quite a bit of teams into this. So I think they're still going to be okay to three now overall record one oh conference but they in my opinion they need to went out and I don't think it's impossible to do. I think you know coming up next week. They're they have northern Colorado. They're not good. In my opinion there one in four overall WANNA know the conference. They had a tough but they didn't play last from what I my my little book so obviously the one conference game here a couple of weeks go up after. That is the big two weeks later. They're at in Missoula against the University of Montana in to me. Safar Montana State is gonNA be okay so far from what I can tell. Montana might be the took the team to deal with in this conference Davis is for some reason struggling. They they were picked to be really good but they're they're struggling. They lost big time to Montana over the weekend down and Davis their their struggle thought to me if they win Montana and close out. Cal Poly will be tough game. Northern Arizona shouldn't be because it's up here It's always a struggle. And they played down in flagstaff. Idaho State is God awful so it doesn't matter where you play the game could be on Mars and doesn't mean aswell open by Eastern. If or let's say this year might be struggle but it should not be everyone else beats the hell out of them except for Portland State. I should say. And that's the last game the Damn Cup Game Portland State. Should cal poly might be okay. It's down at poly and that could be a tough one but they should win out except for Montana. You know especially beginning this season. They're they're tough schedule. Would have been Jacksonville state in Washington. I don't know how to and three right now. Jacksonville state is a good team. But they had that game on there should be At least three into you but they realistically should before one going into this. So there's some stuff going on the schedule definitely is in favor of eastern. If they play like they can but we'll see they can't afford to lose more than one game in conference and still hope to make. The playoffs might be one of those years. Where just doesn't workout but yet to see the the rest of the big sky this weekend northern I'm sorry northern Colorado. Beat I'd help aired earlier on Idaho cannot back up their big win. It was on the road. but northern. Colorado did that Montana State beat northern Arizona. That's where I think it'll be Montana. State Montana being two teams that eastern has to battle with. We were just going to be good but I'm not sure how how how great they are. It'll take a couple of weeks into the the conference schedule to figure them out Idaho state crush four state. I haven't been able to see my the team. I watched growing up when they're the D. to school but they got cry crushed by state and I don't know Hauer why all of a sudden they're so so bad in the conference. This is a team that only lost by like seven points to Arkansas at Arkansas. And they got throttled. I think those by twenty five to thirty not sure what happened with you'll vikings. I don't know if they had injuries. I did not have time to do a lot of details kinda sad. I like that school. I wish they could get some success. It's the biggest school in the state of Oregon. But it's basically a commuter school and its struggle for sporting programs. We beat northern. Iowa is always a good you know good conference way and to be to Missouri Valley School. Then cal poly be beat up southern. Utah. Pretty good so I think it's A. We're getting into the conference schedules for everybody. Every team in college football But especially excited to see Big Sky and how it all shakes out the one conference outside of the big pack twelve as a trainwreck except for the HUSKIES and maybe Utah. But that's a train wreck that's GONNA be Weird Conference this year. They're gonNA beat up everybody. I'm not sure if they could just not being a major ballgame just to save face. We'll see but I'm excited for Big Sky Conference to get go and get some teams. We know about and see what shakes out so my game of the week this week overall called football was university Washington versus USC. The game was up in Seattle. It was an interesting game. You know what I'm talking about three days later too so this is all off the cuff Washington. Like we've talked about in a prior. Podcast has I mean they got to find someone that can catch the damn ball. Jacobson throws a horrible. That's for sure but how I mean. They can't catch the ball. I if this game was down in. La I'm not sure. The huskies went in. I think overall they're going to be a better team than USC. That could be a little bit of bias as the fan but Usc has questionable. Coaching Washington got two turnovers. That turned into a couple touchdowns early and just some weird call from where it calls from a clay Helton as a coach and Washington ran the ball pretty well. I mean they played a solid game. Wrong they just. There's something missing with his team. That hasn't been there through the Browning Years Essentially I like Jacobsen. He's going to. He's got to be one of the top Top candidates in the NFL log on. I don't think go number one or anything like that. But I believe that he'll be a top prospect. Who's got a cannon for an arm he can fling it but those receivers aren't catching it. It's crazy game after game. At least three or four or five drops cost them. It was good to see back running the ball out guys super fast and their defense was not bad. They gave up way too many running yards this week but USC forget the name of the one of the running backs. She's a bowling ball man. They come to him. He was he was. He's a grown man. Running down the field and breaking tackles and they give up two hundred and some yards on in rushing which is surprising. It's been awhile since I've gave up that kind of rushing to To a team so surprising but main thing is GonNa win and move on and so it wasn't the most entertaining game but it was my game that I picked for the game of the week because it was a big pack twelve game and so we'll move on from that in huffily. The huskies keep it. Keep improving and and find some receivers. They can catch the Damn Ball They ran a weird nevertheless they did run a weird trick play that ended up being a fumble. I'm just poor timing execution. I do like that. Peterson still runs. The trick plays Miss kind of built a legacy of that. The guy is did not execute it and it seemed like kind of an odd time for that play. But I'm never gonNA. I'm not gonNA be ever to critical of guys trying to do things outside the norm. I appreciate that kind of football. Not Kinda thought The huskies come up with Stanford DOWN ON THE FARM. And that's always a tough battle but the data that's a game. They should win. Stanford is struggling very bad. And it's a game. I gotTa Win all right so the last thing I got for. Everybody is the next few podcasts whether I do now but the next few pockets you'll hear from me. We'll be about the rugby World Cup as I'm going over to To Tokyo and Japan to visit and catch you in some games. It'll be I'm excited for that. So if you're into that stay tuned for those and you can follow me on my social media stuff. I'll be posted some stuff. There on twitter and instagram both are at sub lump. So check that out for some some hopefully entertaining and cool content from Japan and Rugby World Cup. Thanks for listening again piece.

Montana HUSKIES North Dakota Idaho Big Sky Washington football USC North Dakota Conference Colorado Lombi Arizona Spokane Cal Poly Portland State University of Montana Cini Jacksonville Chini Pera Pera Pariah
Hull York medical school uses manikins to simulate patients

The Science Show

09:09 min | 2 years ago

Hull York medical school uses manikins to simulate patients

"On. Jimmy. Ones. Make sure standing next to patient in sort of trolley covered in machines that go ping. It's infect manikin and the building I'm in in the university of hull demonstrate semester, incredible range of how technology matches the patient. Julie, your the dean here, give an idea of some of the amazing things that you do to bring the technology to the medical students actually into various other people trading. Well, the real recurrently stood in is an operating theater with all the equipment. You would find any type of operating theater in hospital across the world, but actually them within that we use mannequins that have digital capacities to respond to the things that the students do to them. We can link them up on program them to respond in certain ways as if they've got certain conditions, the physiology can change the radically, but also they can talk back to the student. Yes, that's true. Student can ask the mounting questions and the manner. Coon can respond, and we're able to do that in a way so that the shooter comme ke- that relevant to the situation. So the tour is actually controlling the responses that the mannequin makes dependent upon what the students do. So it says close, really, as we can get to a real life scenario without it being a real life patient. So it's a safe way for the students to learn. They come do something wrong and learn from it without having really severe consequences that might happen if they were out in the clinical environment for real small toothy manicheism robot with a. Are you actually have skilled scientists Dr almost like a ventriloquist dogging through the mannequin? Yeah, that's up -solutely. Right. So the Tuta, whether they be a nursing tutor, medical tutor can be at a distance away from where the students are actually around the bed or the operating table learning so they can see what's going on. So they know how to respond, but actually. The student doesn't know what they're going to say, and they are obviously assessing what impact the students actions are having on that mannequin in order to inform their responses took them what comes next in the kind of caregiving scenario hoping that they haven't done anything so severe to the patient that it's an retrievable situation when the Queen came. Did she actually question of the mannequin? Yes, she did us question if the mannequin she was interested to know how we were able to get the mannequin to talk. Obviously, we gave her the same expansion that we just give new. But yes, she was upset fascinated by the fact that this mannequin could actually respond to the question that the students were asking. We won't the particular person next to me in bed the model. Obviously it's been under anesthetic, but your own field is looking at the ways in which people women can respond to having babies at astounded. Find that mental health is the biggest morbidity or on wellness assoc-. Aged with giving birth with being pregnant in the modern world. How come? I think this probably a number of reasons for that. We're in a society where mental health problems are generally more prevalent than they've probably ever been. That's mirrored in childbearing population, we are better at identifying mental health problems. Now, I would hope that people feel more able to disclose mental health problems now stigma restore there. But it has definitely reduced compared to where it was. Perhaps twenty years ago, practitioners are becoming more skilled at recognizing, I think, to some extent as well. Childbirth is now much safer. So there's more space if you like to focus on the emotional context of pregnancy and childbirth a. not just the physical context tuned reges ago. The thing that people are bothered about was making sure a woman survive childbirth. Actually. Now we're in a situation where fortunately not across. The world equivalent late, but in many places of the world, childbirth is very, very safe on the risks of mortality are are low. So you think the people will be less worried you would. But I think society is more worried generally, as I say, gives space to think about the other thing. It's not always about gonna live through the birth, but it's about how am I going to financially fall to have this baby? How is my family going to adapt to this? How am I going to manage work and motherhood were comparing hood. So there's a whole set of more social issues. I think that people now are more concerned bound and spend more time focusing on. There's a lot of pressure as well to be a perfect mother and show how are you following it up here. So we're doing a whole body of work here. We've done a lot of work that's linked to service development to support women who have mental health problems, either existing or develop risk during the pregnant period. We have done a lot of work around trae. Meaning of practitioners, midwives, health visitors, doctors. We've also looked at how we screen these women have we got the right tools to identify what it is that they might be risk of whether it be depression, anxiety, fear of childbirth. And so we've really done a lot of groundwork when now moving into really looking out once people get into services, what happens if they don't attend, what difference does it make? And then we're also trying to look at now some of those smaller groups who are quite vulnerable for different reasons. So a piece of work is around women with Pera Pathum cardiomyopathy very unique pregnancy related condition, but very life changing sweeping, working on quite innovative, statistical methodologies that allow us to work with small groups rather than necessarily having to have the huge numbers you'd normally have to have to be able to get significant results myopathy. In other words, they didn't know that the head heart disease until they pregnant. Absolutely. So these. Women have lived a perfectly normal life. They've heard no indication they've got any heart condition at all. They enter pregnancy. That pregnancy is often quite well. And when they get either to the very end of pregnancy into the labour period of very soon after they become very, very ill often, they end depend intensive care units. They really do become severely ill, and then they come out of that. Actually being told that they have this significant heart problem that they didn't know they had before they became pregnant. And so as you can imagine, the potential psychological impact of that, we think is probably highly significant are nobody really there is work going on around it and the cat, the potential interventions, but very, very little. What will no work actually today on the psychological impact. And that's what we're interested in trying to midwife long before you became a professor. So what you have could personal understanding of what you're talking about here. I'd like to think. So I'm a midwife found a mother as well, so I can come at it from two perspectives. So yes, childbirth is meant to be this very positive, happy amazing event and for many women is, but for some women, it isn't. We need to understand more about because it is a really significant life event, and it has implications not just for that mother in terms of her mental health, but also for that child and those implications a long-term. There's evidence now really substantive evidence that demonstrates the impact of mental health in pregnancy has really far-reaching long-running effects on child outcomes right into our lessons and even into adult hood. And so it is a really, really significant issue, not one, I don't think we can afford to ignore one last question. What is brain fog brame folk brain fog is what some people would refer to probably as baby brain. Is there any. Actual cognitive deficit change that goes on foreign woman in pregnancy that affects her psychological processing, either in pregnancy are in the early postnatal period that impacts on her ability to function to decision may. I don't say banal that sounds really, really common all well, that's what we want to find out. We think it probably is quite common. What we don't quite know is what the mechanisms are that underpin that, and I'm lots of women will describe it. We've got to think as well women very fatigued. So there's definitely some into tiredness, lack of sleep and all those things. But actually that probably is something psychologically mechanistic that's going on. We want to understand what that is, how it affects women differentially on really, what does it mean? How important is it? Professor Julie, Jimmy dean dean of the faculty of health sciences, university of how.

Professor Julie university of hull Coon depression Jimmy dean dean professor Pera Pathum myopathy cardiomyopathy twenty years
Your Path to Effective Trauma Therapy | Dr. Nicole LePera

Do The Thing, with Whole30's Melissa Urban

51:24 min | 1 year ago

Your Path to Effective Trauma Therapy | Dr. Nicole LePera

"Hi My name is Melissa Urban. And you're listening to do the thing a podcast where we explore. What's been missing every time you tried to make a change and make it stick today? My guest is Dr Nicola Para also known as the holistic psychologist. I've been following Nicole on instagram. For a very long time and last season I had her on to talk about boundaries. Today we're here to talk about the various forms of trauma therapy a few months ago after talking talking about my own trauma on instagram again. I received a lot of. DM's and comments asking how specifically I was able to process and move past past sexual abuse. I spent some time really thinking about it and realized I actually used a lot of different therapeutic processes to move through it lots of talk therapy some bodywork energy work the work of Byron Katie. But I discovered all of these kind of on my own except for talk therapy which my parents put me in as a teenager I kind of stumbled in to the rest of them on my own and as a result my trauma processing and healing took took a very long time like a decade. If not longer if I had only had some guidance into the various forms of trauma therapies available I may have have been able to move through the process more effectively of course when I was sixteen. Many of these forms of therapy didn't exist or weren't commonly known today. Doctor La Pera is going to walk us through various forms of trauma therapy both for the body and the mind will talk about what trauma is from from the big t to the liberty which in and of itself may prove the missing piece to help you take the first step towards getting help. She'll explain the importance importance of addressing trauma in the body. Not just the mind. We'll talk about our own experiences of mind body disconnection after trauma and how to reestablish a strong connection through bodywork and specific forms of body focused trauma therapy. She'll also share free in the moment therapeutic practices. You can use to calm an overactive nervous system and move your body into a receptive state for processing uncomfortable feelings. She'll also share what to look for in a therapist and the various forms of trauma therapy that have proven most effective in practice. I've said this often. It wasn't easy to acknowledge my I trauma unpack it and process it but what I was doing to avoid. It wasn't easy either swallowing it. Keeping everyone at a distance feeling constantly Stanley unsafe dawning heavy armor. My hope and having Dr Laura back for this episode is that we give you the permission encouragement support and resources you. You need to take a step whether it's the first step or another in the line of steps you are already taking to move through your trauma in a way that leaves you feeling connected connected. EMPOWERED SAFE and free. This is a good one not always an easy one but good I am right here with you. Let's let's get started with the episode. Dr Nicola Pera. Welcome back to do the thing. I'm so excited to have you doc with us today it is beyond honor. Melissa thank you so much. I love connecting with you and your audience. I say us but it's just me. I gotTa talk like that to us. And and we and you know we're all the universal collective here it's a right. It's very grandiose so I am so excited to dive into our topic today but before we get into the first question I ask all all of my guests and you have answered this once before. What's your thing? My thing is teaching people to heal and to consciously create a new version of themselves It's brilliant I love it. I WanNa talk to you today about trauma and the various forms of trauma therapy that are available today. That can help someone move through move past and and kind of self heal in their journey their therapeutic journey journey. But before we get into that I think one of the things that's really important as to talk about trauma in and of itself the old definition of trauma the way that I used to think about would it when I was sexually assaulted when I was sixteen and trauma was a horrific car accident. When someone died you went to war and you got PTSD? I think we now have a new new understanding of trauma. Don't we absolutely Melissa to speak to your point when you lead into this. You said it's a big topic and I think the trauma that you're very the accurately defining an as it has been defined societally for so long is what we now refer to as the big t trauma the cataclysmic event egregious neglect etc.. We now come to realize I call it the little tea and a lot of us in the field do of trauma and I have now come to realize that once we've expanded the definition as I suggest that we all do which shares in a minute. There's a lot of us out there That have that are struggling from the remnants of some of US age old old very early life traumatic experiences so what does trauma essentially the way I define. Trauma Trauma is just. It's it's an experience that overwhelms your capacity to to cope and when that happens the emotional component your emotional reaction to whatever that experience might be. It can't be properly processed and you become flooded flooded with an emotional experience. Not only at the time but it becomes stored and I call it in the mind body system because I very much believe in no both are connected it becomes stored stored and that's why for some of us. We could be struggling with the remnants of trauma for for decades for a lifetime even so in this more expanded definition. Not only is it those big cataclysmic events that you and many others have suffered. It's also unmet needs emotionally distant parents not being seen heard and valued the unique individual. It's parental Ak Shin. It's a measurement in the child system. It's a lot of more for lack of better common experiences. That many of us US had growing up like I said earlier it overwhelms our system. We cannot process it fully and we carry the multiple effects of US affects of it later later in life with us. So what you just add brings up two things for me. The first is thank you. Thank you for legitimising so many the people's experiences with things that you know no I was not attacked in a in a dark alley in the middle of the night and held at gunpoint. Like these. These things happen to me over the course of my life and I'm struggling to hindle them. You know I was cheated on. I was bullied. I was whatever your thing is like. Thank you for legitimizing that for us as traumatic experiences. Yeah absolutely and I do so. It's not like I said not only because I come to be aware of how devastating some of these effects can be in our physical body in our relationships and our emotional systems. But it can really be confusing zinc's just speaking from my own lived experience. I didn't check any of those. The boxes of the big tease. If you will however I still was incredibly associated. I was disconnected from my body from my emotions. That's what this associated is. I was chronically in fighter flight. I engage in a lot of negative relationship patterns and people pleasing co-dependency and a lack of boundaries. Right so I'm living all of these struggles and if I were to lie if I were to say I didn't try to explore my background thinking desperately searching there must speech. I must find the big bad thing that happened to me. When I didn't? I was really confused. Why am I carrying such effects in my life if nothing quote unquote happened the per se? So that's why I do. Make it such an effort to legitimize and speak of this whole underside of experiences. That I think many more of us are having because it can be really really confusing. We can feel like we're crazy or something's wrong with us because we're not seeing those big egregious things that we've society been conditioned to believe 'cause US experiences were having yes. I think that's so important. I have a friend who was bullied quite a bit in school and I've watched them. Overreact is to what I what I would consider overreact normal social situations today and once I realized this was a traumatic experience. And like this person is now reacting from this place of unhealed trauma. It made a lot more sense. It allowed me to be a lot more supportive and to encourage help but it also allowed told them to feel less volatile and crazy like no. This was a legitimate thing that happened to you that you need to now move through like an except yeah one hundred percent and emotional. reactivity is is a very common remnant that we carry from that trauma because trauma does is it initiates very evolutionary evolutionary based fighter flight response. And unfortunately it's GonNa keep this really simple we get stuck in that response and what that is it's like that hair-trigger acre you know. We're always at that eight or nine so it takes a cliche saying the charlotte broke the camel's back right but we are reactive maybe around the same sort and context or the same sort of issues issues we become hyper reactive or maybe it's really generalized and we're just always on edge waiting for the next shoe to drop and that does cause at reactivity that can be quite it can be confusing for ourselves and we're trying to understand you know what that react where that reaction came from. It can be incredibly confusing in our relationships friendships. Family Romantic mantech partners. Who Don't understand why the I say this way? Why the emotions so big in that moment and it can be really damaging and your relationships in thinking back doc to the way? I've responded to some of my traumatic experiences. I have a hard time telling myself. This is not that I'm reacting in this situation in the here and now as if what happened to me before is happening to me now. And that's not the case and so the person I'm engaging with in this moment is very confused like what are you know. Why are you you reacting in this way and all what? I'm really doing dragging the past into my current relationships which can be very destructive. Yes one of the percents. The other thing that comes up when talk about the kind of this expanded definition of trauma is that. I think I'm right in saying we should not be attempting to compare our trauma to someone someone else's and by that I mean we should not be making are smaller because it wasn't as bad. Yeah absolutely and I think that's internal individual process process at a lot of us. Do I call it minimizing invalidating and then it bleeds out externally to and especially in this climate this incredibly social climate in that at that which is all the world of instagram. Unfortunately a lot of us do find ever available comparisons of other people's stories of other people's struggles and before we know it we can invalidate all of the very real emotions that were still hiring for very difficult lived experience. Yes and I've noticed myself doing that in in the past as well so now that we've opened with this albeit very brief kind of expanded definition of trauma. The crux of this discussion then are all of the various methods we can use to move through and process. The traumas accumulated in our lives. And part of the reason I reached out to you was because in my own experience with my sexual assaulted happened when I was sixteen. So we're talking about like you know almost thirty years ago. All I had was talk. Therapy my parents shuttled me in to see a therapist when I was eighteen years old. We did talk therapy. I felt like I didn't make real progress us with my trauma for like the better part of a decade. I think we have a much better and broader definition of trauma therapy now and I think there are a lot of tools available global. So where would you start in helping people kind of breakdown. All of the different modalities available one hundred percent. I couldn't agree more in terms of the limitations of the more traditional. I'm going to call it very simple. Simply the very talk based model and the reality of it is talked alone. Put it this way not to say or minimize is the hot when I'm GonNa get to these positive effects in a minute but the positive effects of a healthy supportive interpersonal relationship. That's one hundred percent component in the in the healing from trauma but it's limited because of that mind body connection so the new healing modalities and the evolution that we're seeing in the field. The old which is incredibly inspiring to me is toward what I'm interested in the whole field. More globally evolving towards. What's which is that really true? Holistic Listrik approach because like I mentioned earlier with the fact that the that the trauma sort in the mind and body we have to treat them or heal from the mind and body so to simplify. Let's talk from the bottom up from the body right so in in our body when we're carrying trauma sometimes we're carrying actually quite literally stuck energy. We are energetic. Those of the listeners out there who are aware of of Quantum quantum science physics everything in the Universe is energy including eating our bodies energy moves through pathways in our body if ideally if all is going well it has you know kind of just directs itself often we kind of expand energy and you take an energy energy flows freely put it this way when we energy becomes stock which can have which can manifest as physical symptoms as tensions in our body. Some of US needs energy work so we have a whole field of energy work of of rocky of of different energy modalities of Chinese medicine acupuncture acupuncture acupressure where we're quite literally manually trying to stimulate and free up some some of those energy components. Wow I don't think it ever occurred to me that acupuncture I do acupuncture but I don't think I ever made the Association of that releasing saying Yes like traumatic energy one hundred percent and then I mean the deeper. You WanNa go right. There's a whole world of of Shamans and spirit medicine and that kind if energy work and it it's it's integral for a lot of us For me you know I found acupuncture. Wasn't aware really I'd heard of the Meridians. That's that's the lines that energy flows in our body but I started acupuncture when I wasn't really aware of how important it was And it's an incredibly important piece and right there in terms of body. This goes hand in hand energy work than tension and our musculature of our body so some of us are going to need to seek owl. And I've always been a fan of this of the massages yoga the bodywork because for me. I'll against personal example. I carry so much tension in my shoulders in particular from a light a life lived in fighter flight from chronically carrying tension and hunching and just tightening all the muscles in my body that I I actually appear slightly hunch still and I understand that is being just years and years and years of these tensions not being released body. Bodywork is an integral part of my healing massage. Massage is really incredible. I mean if you find the right person who's aware of the body and emotions. I mean the field of massage. Gosh less issues completely expanding where people are actually very much trained now an emotional and massage and musculature. And Maya facial modalities. Is that all at once. You know you can really get an incredible release in the body and then the simplest most common one that also releases these body tensions as yoga. You know whether or not you want to go to a studio pop in going to youtube and just stretching your muscles can go a long way to release some of these pent up store tensions in the body. Okay so I know all of this because I've done energy work I've done ricky. I've had incredible releases from Yoga before I even realized what was happening. I would be in pigeon pose and all all of a sudden something would come up and I would start bawling my eyes out but I think this idea of trauma being stored in the body is going to be new for some people. How am I keeping that in my tissues? Keeping that in my muscles Do you are you. Do you like the body. Keeps the score for kind of explaining that or do you have your own way of explaining cleaning how some of these traumatic experiences can be stored physically in the body. Yeah absolutely I love. The body keeps score. That that for me. It's very I love that you bring that up. I've had two versions of a relationship with that book was as a clinician. Really opening my mind to the mind body connection to the reality that muscle that tensions and emotions are stored in the body and then read a second time several years later as a human realizing that I was kind of a case study in that when I read it i. I was very disconnected from some of the truce about my past that I wasn't identifying with it and so yeah that's a really great book. I'm always giving that as a recommendation. The reality of it is like I said. Our thoughts are emotional. World's transmit messages to our body. They transmit messages. Like I said into our energy system into our hormones and it's the neurotransmitters that were releasing so if worst stock and I want to get to the fighter flight the hyperactive fight or flight to because that's a really integral area for healing trauma trauma but if we're stuck in chronic fighter flight with cortisol raging throw us and all of the muscle tension that happens. Our muscles aren't going to A. B. Relaxing as they need to our body is driven to maintain a balance. So like I when I defined trauma I define it as a an experience. Here's at overwhelms your capacity to cope on some level stresses not a bad thing for our for our human entity or organism. We need it we go. We expend energy. Are Organism organism becomes stress. And then we come back to baseline and our bodies equipped to do that to become tense to fight or flee whatever the threat is and then to discharge charge all of that an example. I guess I love animals is when you actually see after a rigorous or you know an an animal working themselves up energetically ethically you a dog in particular comes to mind because many of us have dogs you might see them shake and that's their nervous system expending that energy Jay so just thinking about it really simply if we don't as humans give ourselves that shake that discharge if the trauma emotions quite literally overwhelmed our system or never shaking that energy our never moving back to baseline then if you compound that year upon year however long you know were remaining stock in this trauma trauma like I mentioned earlier for some of us can be decades for some of us we can be becoming re trigger in the relationships. Speak to the perfect example you offer earlier in our patterns moderns right. We're riding a wave of emotions. That aren't getting that release. That aren't coming back to baseline so before you know it you are carrying in your body and tight muscles goals. You're carrying it in your body and physical symptoms for some of us you're carrying it in your body in gastro intestinal issues in in a million a multitude of ways. Yes you're carrying it but for those of you interested in reading it. The body keeps. The score is is a really groundbreaking booked that illustrates the kind of neurobiology in physiology and all of that beneath all of this. Yeah that was my first intro into it from an educational perspective but I had already experienced it in a number of yoga sessions ends And massage sessions as you mentioned so yoga massage acupuncture acupressure. Where does so matic therapy come in? What is so traumatic therapy? And how does that play into the physical release of tension in the aftermath of trauma. Yeah one hundred percent so somatic. Therapy is is this report. Reconnecting essentially simply the mind and the body together because another byproduct that a lot of us struggle with that. I myself do as well from the aftermath. Aftermath of trauma is becoming disassociation being disconnected from our body or Selma our emotions all of the energies that live in there a lot of us icon. I very warmly and lovingly referred to the place. I used to go as my station when I was on my spaceship. I was not grounded in my physical body. I was not aware of the energies in the emotions. And really the way my body felt at all. So somatic therapy is really marrying the the whole hold we are as humans with yes consciously a mind we have thoughts we can gain insight. We could talk. Things through but healing especially with trauma comes when we reconnect reconnect. That mind in that body when we learn how to for me you know. Get Get rid of the spaceship docket. If you will come back into my body and then learn how to feel in my body understand. That motions are mapping onto energy shifts and changes diving deeper down reconnecting with an intuition to wish in and that internal guidance system so in short somatic therapy is really working to rebuild those connections and integral integral intrical integral part of healing. So like I said a lot of suffer from that disconnect and then just bringing back the topic you offer earlier with relationships for not connected to ourself physically present in our own bodies were not going to be able to motionless physically spiritually connect with another human. And I've lived this because I wasn't connected to me while I desperately shortly one it depth of all sorts in my relationships I found myself coming up short. Obviously when I was much younger I would point to all my partners who are not the right partner for me and this is is why I gave me what I need and as I've gotten older I've come to realize that now Nicole. You are disconnected. You don't you're not connected to yourself your emotions your intuition so how going to bring that to someone else to connect with. Yeah you know your spaceship was my movie screen I would disassociate By watching what was happening to me on a movie screen so it wasn't happening to me in my physical body. It was happening to like that girl who look just like me on a movie screen. It's I haven't actually thought about in a long time one of the most difficult questions for me to answer a few years ago when I really started digging into my trauma was when I would explain that that I was feeling and emotion or that I I couldn't explain the emotion the question of where do you feel this in. Your body was like impossible for me to answer now I find. It's one of the most helpful questions because different emotions feel differently the other day I was in a session. And where do you feel this in your body and immediately I was like it feels like someone has struck me a rusted iron skeleton and I can't I can't move and I can't expanded I can't grow and I can't breathe and like that was a powerful powerful realization for me but that's that mind body connection that I couldn't do a few years ago. One hundred percents the reason we are disconnected. Because we're in an overwhelmed system and when we are experiencing an acute any sort of stressor put it this way way are battling in evolution. We're not battling but we have have to consider for this way the evolutionary part of our brain that calls the shots in that moment the there's a part of our brain the LIMBIC system. That's actually responsible for fight flight or freeze So we don't really get a choice when we're living those acute traumas even though the more Chronic ones as you know in that childhood home with an emotionally distant parent or having way too many apprentices roles as a child we just are we exist list and we cope with it to the best of our ability and what happens is our fight or flight response takes over and that's incredibly disempowering as we age because as we age we have many more options in terms of emotions. So beyond the point of where do you feel in your body becomes the question over time. Well what do you do with them. All right right. How do I take care of myself when I'm having an emotion? The beautiful part of evolution is we didn't. We didn't have to decide to take care of ourselves. When we were ill-equipped our brain did did that for us? It took care of us in the best way that it can but of course as we age and as we develop emotional maturity and relationships. We want to populate a more expanded banded toolkit so for a lot of us it means shifting from a disempowered place of every time I'm triggered into my fight or flight response which does happen to many any of us even years after our trauma to okay. I know how to feel emotions. I know where they are in my body and furthermore I can teach myself how to regulate my stress and how to soothe my emotions in a new way and shifting now into a more empowerment space and that is such a powerful experience in such a wonderful wonderful feeling are we so. Are we still talking about the various body focused therapies or are we now talking thing about the mind the kind of trauma therapies that you can do for the mind to kind of connect those two yes. So it's just wrapping one more body based therapy before I kind of go in terms of the mind find because the first the foundational step to get to the mind to get to those more mature coping tools if you will is regulating our nervous system because because of that fight or flight response in the evolutionary basis of it it's regulated by our nervous system and to really keep it short and simple we have more or less to nervous systems one. That's called fighter flight. It's quite literally re the sympathetic responsible for activating us for fleeing or keeping organism alive. The other one is called the power sympathetic Ed Gore the rest and Digest nervous-system. What happens as a result of trauma for most of us? Is We become overactive in that. Fight or flight response why we feel emotionally reactive. If hyper vigilant waiting for the next you to drop and furthermore so to before we can even talk about what to do with the different type of feelings were having we have to tame that overactive fight or flight response I so polly Bagel work. So polly Vega work is. It's a big nerve that actually helps us to successfully use both of those nervous systems when appropriate breath work is yet number one thing I always talk about because it's the easy the manual way to build in some of this nervous system based regulation into our everyday. I recently took a picture for media wearing a fitted white turtleneck. The Bra Gra I had on underneath was a few years old and it probably fit when I bought it but my body has changed after having a baby and starting a new fitness routine. What fit then? An doesn't fit as well now. In the photo you can clearly see my bra line and a couple of weird little bulges here and there and I definitely remember feeling uncomfortable all all day the thing is I hate trying on bras and I feel like if left to my own devices. I always come out with something that kind of its but not really. That's where third love comes in. Third love does browse differently designed with measurements from millions of women. Their bras styles are made to fit you with over eighty different different sizes based on breast size and shape. I took a quick fit finder quiz. That helped me determine perfect size for a Bra. That's comfortable. Hugs all my parts perfectly and lease smooth under clothes. Plus they give you sixty days to wash it and wear it. If you don't love it return it for free thirdlove knows there's a perfect For everyone so right now. They're offering my listeners. Fifteen percent off your first order go to third love DOT COM slash. Do the thing now to find your perfect fitting Bra and get fifteen percent off your first purchase. That's third love dot com slash. Do the thing for fifteen percent off today. I saw video that you did for stimulating. That vagus nerve. Is that what it's called the Vegas. Yeah the vegas singing. I'm singing in. Mike does so much more now because of you but you mentioned gargling you mentioned singing. I'm all things that you feel really good but also can actually stimulate that got nerve and kind of put you more into that Paris and pathetic mode also a huge fan of breath work. Is this word tapping could come in as well tapping tapping is a little a bit of marriage between this but more of the energy moving when you tap your tapping Meridian's so by manually so whereas acupuncture it'd be a needle Even just you can do it yourself. I actually video while ago emotional focused. EFT It's a great thing a term to Google because there's a handful maybe two handfuls even honestly of points on your up. You're a leading down to kind of your chest bone area that hard to memorized but you could just pull up a video or A. Little schematic amine and see where the TAP. But that's moving of of that energy but I love that you checked out that vagus nerve video so the reason why it's the the vagus nerve is is literally connected to the back of our throat. That's why gargling singing anything. That manually stimulates at back of your throat areas touching the tip that vagus nerve. Yeah I thought that was you know. I'm just I'm all about the small easy things you can do. In the moment you can breathe in the moment element you can tap in the moment you can saying. Probably if you're at home or in your shower and your car in the moment I like you know that there are things that I can do right now now to to recognize okay. I'm in the state. I WANNA shift my state. What are a few things I can do? And just to close my eyes and take a few belly breaths. Concentrate on a particular breathing pattern at work so so well yes one hundred percent so so the to the note of breath work. There's a million different types of breath work practices. But because I like you. Love the daily. The approachable approachable. To how do I fit it in my day. It can be as simple everyone listening as deep belly breathing as breathing and I say this. It's simple but difficult because most of thus have evolved to be a very shallow chess face breathe by the time we become an adult so it takes a little bit of conscious effort putting a hand on your belly quite literally inflating until your belly expands and then a nice low out breath so that can be done. I do it all day long every no doubt you know my partner says something to me and I need a minute to gather myself before I respond and I could just be giving myself too deep valley and I don't respond in that clip away that emotional way Lang's -iety is creeping up. I mean in speaking right. I'm getting ready to go onstage. Couple deep valley breath no one has to know and it goes a long way. It's one of the. It's one of the strategies that I've recommended in in my whole thirty bucks. Where for some people being presented with food or drink that you know isn't serving you and that you don't Wanna eat as executive producing especially if the person expects you to eat it or you don't have a strong boundaries that so those one or two breath can really help you remember your self care remember the boundary and find like a nice polite way to decline? If you choose to so I think it's a fantastic tip. That's a great summary of body work that can be done and I think that could be a huge missing piece for people who have just been doing sort of Trauma work focusing on their brain. But there's also a lot of different modalities that you can do in therapy that focus on Whether it's prolonged exposure or stress inoculation training there's e- MDR. There's cognitive processing therapy and cognitive behavioral therapy. I got a little confused when I was researching. What are some of the best strategies that you've found yeah one hundred percent so to speak to the DRP? Because that in my opinion is is impactful and impactful practice Going to an EMT are trained clinician. Because all of our brains but this way store memories so if we can look back and envision pass first holidays things like that. We have a snapshot picture of it to keep it really simple trauma and big emotions in this way are sort differently. They're stored in in an emotional center of our brain in our limbic system mm-hmm and that's why so the most intense experience of this is when you hear people talking about flashbacks when it's as as if That thing that happened however long ago is happening again I can smell it. I can hear it I can. I'm their viscerally. And that's the nature of how all trauma most is stored in the brain it's stored in a very emotional center so it needs to be dealt with a little bit differently so any listener out. There are specially if you're having those kind of nightmare flashback type experiences. MDR's definitely path to pursue and it stands for eye movement meant desensitization desensitization reprocessing. Yes so that's exactly what it does so it it helps you to bring the traumatic memory back to a natural point join of resolution so that you can process it like any other memory essentially works with movement so it moves it from like being in a super emotional state to where you you can just sort of observe it and I love it. Okay all right that makes sense what it percents so where you can like any other memory where you can become more or of an observer I love as opposed to an active participant. As if it's happening happening like I said not only US revisiting visiting that very real like for you. You know sexual trauma or whatever it may be. That's happening in those in those small. Little T. ways as well when my partner says that thing and it might as well be my mom saying nothing to me and now in a sense before you know it I'm reacting. Is that probably more along the lines of how I reacted. When I was young child with not the most mature coping mechanisms? I keep I scream. I'd associated attach as opposed to the much more mature adult. WHO's able to separate observe understand that this is not what's happening in this moment and then give me access to a whole other range of coping skills and for some of us? EMC are is a path through. It's not a quick fix fix it can alleviate a lot of I think the stuck point and especially the flashback memory but then I think this is where we're going to go into speaking thing about now then there's still other probably modalities that one could pursued a really obtain the deepest level of healing around trauma. Okay perfect so let's let's move to those then. What are some other forms of mind therapy or cognitive therapy that you recommend absolutely so anything that involves developing emotional channel resilience so that ability back when I was overwhelmed to cope to empower myself to understand now that I don't have to be overwhelmed again? I can develop the new tools new ways to regulate my stress and my emotion so anne sort of emotionally focused. Therapy can be really intricately literally integral important so where I simple steps though. Not so simple in application in terms of our emotions right. Can I connect with the body. The name and the the fact that emotions map on I can feel them in my body can sense the energy shift. So can I connect and identify can can I label and know what the feeling is. Can I do. I have an emotional vocabulary. Put it that way because not only that's helpful for two reasons my emotional vocabulary so if I know that this event caused me anger I might have a bit more clarity on what happens next for what I need to choose to happen. Language language around emotions is also the currency so if I want to become more intimate with any relationship I in right I can share what I'm feeling and a common language with someone else so it's can. I almost like identify touch my feelings. Can I feel them president. Can I give them language. Can I understand them and gain the understanding that they have are offering me because I do believe that our emotions are teachers if we can identify them and understand what they're trying to teach us and then the third step is what do I do. Can I learn how to a tolerate. I kind of put emotional coping into different categories. Can I just learn how the tolerate feelings because I assure everyone listening one truth a lot of us do not give ourselves the opportunity to know this truth. Feelings have natural endpoint emotions. Come into our body affect our bodies and then they go if we allow them. So can I learn how to what I call distress tolerance. Can I learn how to ride. Ride the waves of my emotions. And then can I- populate an adaptive emotional toolkit. Can I learn new things that I can do to sue. Then these are going to be you different for each person and this whole process right. Can I connect can identify. And can I soothe is a process. So back to my spacious spacious. It took me a whole hell of a long time listener to land my spaceship when I was there. I know idea it was going on this earth body that I was given I was like Whoa. What is this let alone? Name commit and differentiate between feelings. I still have. It's funny. I saved a mean a while ago of this emotional wheel and I have never seen so I mean I've heard of all of these emotions back back. Can I actually identify them in my body. And that's what I feeling then now is then. By the time I set sail on that ship. It's like okay. Well now what do I do you about them. So yes easier said than done. You know what I mean but definitely the process in a nutshell. I feel for a couple of years. I had to emotions which were angry or fine and I love my were okay and not. Okay Oh gosh the big game is just around the corner. which for me means a party with friends epic commercials and most important wings? 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That's butcher box dot com slash. Do the thing or Promo Code. Do the thing at checkout. How would you go about finding a therapist purpose? Or what kind of questions would you ask therapist to know that developing emotional resilience was part of the work that you would do together. A lot of therapists will talk about in doing emotional focus type of therapy so any therapists that speaks of that were earlier. Somatic work emotional focused work and more and more therapist. Therapist are starting to talk about doing that side. Mindfulness based therapists can even be really really helpful because mindfulness is awareness and one the things we become aware of when we practice. Mindfulness is the body so any therapists at advertisers or speaks of mindfulness base works. Somatic were emotional. Motion focused work is probably going to be the the the route to go down to get the most benefit cvt tends to be a little. It'll more focus in the cognitive brain thought process which like I said can have a place but we really need to dive down a little deeper when we're talking being in healing trauma something else. I wanted another term that I just want listeners and it just popped up. We talked about it earlier but thankfully some therapists now are even advertising advertising or kind of stating that some of the work they do is polly Bagel informed so I bring this up now because with a poly bagel therapist. Sometimes the work work is actually co regulating that nervous system in the moment. So anyone out there if you have your hands on her of access to someone who is polly Bagel informed and that would be my number one suggestion because that's going to be a person who can help you to regulate your nervous system to evolve into that safe relationship that will then expand into your relationships outside of the therapeutic context are there any other modalities or any other sort of. I don't know things we should be looking for in a therapist therapist or Practices I think the most the most important piece and this goes back to this idea of relationships in interpersonal effects that trauma carries within us the one of the most important things that I always suggests everyone look for in a therapist. Is the nature of the connection between me and the therapist or client or patient and the therapist because we are interpersonal creatures. Melissa and we need relationships to heal and because of the nature of trauma more often than ny are. Our relationships are affected to the extent that we tend to miss perceive the concept of threat and safety in our relationships in particular so whereas it starts with that therapist relationship is possibly for some of us being the first positive supportive relationship. We've had in our life. We want to expand that out but that first relationship of safety isn't is incredibly incredibly important so the suggestion I always give everyone and I know it's time and effort in work and annoying. Maybe even tactical go vet therapists but really defined person that you could granite. Relationships don't happen overnight but a person that you can imagine yourself evolving into a trusting relationship with I think that's incredibly incredibly important. Because there's so much healing that can take place just in the context of that safe relationship or a relationship that over time you come to deem as safe. I could not agree with you more. I feel like in my my own experience. Finding the right therapist was like seventy five percent of the work meaning. I finally found the right person and I felt safe. I felt protected. I felt led and guided. Did he also didn't take any of. My Shit was incredible because I was definitely running over every other therapist I had before him but finding the right person I feel like unlocked my potential to do this work so I think it is really important to spend the time and make sure that that connection is really good. Yeah it's integral. I could not not agree more so that could be different. That's where it gets. Individual is that's different for everyone used by so whether it's someone like you out there listening I want to call me all my shit. You know someone might might want someone a little more. Just whoever it is for you that you can imagine that connection developing that's the path that you should pursue exactly. There's one more area area of trauma therapy that I wanNA talk about and you are the perfect person to talk about it. Because you're a patented. How shag is self healer and I feel like there? There are things that we can do in our own lives like repairing tting setting boundaries. Exploring self care that can absolutely prop up all of this incredible incredible work. We're doing with our mind body one hundred percent. I love that you brought up repainting Melissa and only because I I love the topic. But that touches all of these areas right whether we're talking rebuilding that foundational balance in our bodies so for some of us that might mean changing our lifestyle habits like you said putting boundaries on ourselves getting the sleep that we need getting you know to speak to your the nutrition in many ways that we need. You know making sure that we're setting our body up which might mean changing the conditioned lesson or rules that we have lived upon a lot of us are taught how to care for our physical body. Some of US directly with direct messaging typically in our caregiving environments some of indirectly. Just what we saw people around us doing. How did they eat? How did they sleep? How do they navigate stress so when I talk about repainting having some of us are becoming aware of those older condition patterns that aren't serving and changing them and a lot of it has to do with the physical body also engaging in a daily consistent practice of breath work can go in along? The lines of your repainting journey was definitely part of Mayan. Another big card. Every parenting is learning our motions. All that stuff we were talking about. Emotional competency and resilience again were modeled. Our emotions in as very global category from our earliest relationships we see people having emotions. Maybe some lesser given direct messages about emotions. A lot of us are given messages. which are okay which are not okay of course really simplifying some of these message indirectly? Where just we just don't talk about those things? So how how is a child. Am I going to know what those things are. How to navigate those things those things being my emotions my natural emotions that I'm going to continue to have into adulthood so when I become an adult all re parenting? That's what that really is relearning. I unconditionally some of the unhelpful patterns around emotions as well and relearning some new. You were more helpful patterns And you have so many resources on repair ending on your instagram. Feed and your Youtube Channel. I think the idea was very new new to me until I started following you and then all of a sudden it made so much sense I I think to myself when I put myself to bed early. 'cause I've had a rough day and I know I need a big night of sleep like this is is repairing Ding. Yeah it's time for bed. Melissa yeah absolutely and I talk about it often unless it because when I when I introduced what I do you know one of the things. They always say that. I offer people the tools to do at least is to consciously create a version of yourself a new version because the reality of it is what we are many of us at least as adults are living or all of these condition. Habits patterns believes emotional loops that were just stuck in. And that's not this concept authentic sell. That's not necessarily who we are as Howard living. That's patterns and conditioning that were evidencing in the world old if you will on any given day but we do have so back this idea of self healing in this ability of conscious creation as an adult. We really can reshape. Whether it's our daily Ellie lifestyle habits or the way we navigate our emotions we can empower ourselves to create. That new version is much more in alignment with who we actually are are authentic self. That's been there all along but again that just was not attuned to as we needed it to be This is been so informative formative for myself as well we have. You've recommended so many incredible release specific strategies. My show notes are going to be very detailed. I WanNa make sure that we get all of this this stuff right but I do WanNa wrap it up with just a very simple the end kind of end of podcast question. which is what's one thing you could recommend to listeners out there right now? who were ready to do the thing yes to do the thing? Do those deep breaths. I mean I cannot. I almost listen nonstop record on talking about these valley breasts in there so small and they're so simple but they go such a long way so for some like I said it's retraining squarely the way we breathe down in that deep belly area. Just try it out. Try it laying in bed tonight. Try It when you feel your heart rate starting to amp up with stress. Just try and then tune in to how your body feels so remember to hand on the belly right in the nose. And the mouth whatever's most comfortable inflating leading that belly all the way out and then a nice slow deep breath out and tune in to how you feel because that the beautiful part about breath away to Melissa and not elites it's impactful. That's why I'm talking about and many must need to regulate our nervous system is one of the few holistic tools that I can feel the effects of quite soon after a lot of the things that I'm talking about you know you have to do it consistently for days or weeks and then you get to feel better. This is one of the ones that you can actually feel the calmness in your body almost almost immediately so to do the thing do the deep valley breath thing. I'm doing it right now. I love and centered and grounded and people listening. Learning can do it right now. I love that so much Dr Nicola Para Oh where can people find you because they're gonna WanNa find you do come on over so my main hub of them always shouting out as the instagram. It's the dot holistic dot psychologist and on there. You will find a link tree with all the goodies. I don't always giving out an the email lists with a pdf for something called future self journaling so jump on. See what that's about for those of you don't know and also a youtube channel in all for those of you who are youtubers out there and prefer the video option at the holistic dot psychologist but really instagram is the place to go. I'm on their daily. I'm very active active and all the goodies are coming through their antastic. Yeah I'm a big fan of your youtube channel. Also thank you. Thank you so much Dr Nicola Para the holistic psychologists. Thank you so much for joining me again on do that. Of course thank you so much as always. Thanks for joining me today. On do the thing you can continue the conversation with me at Melissa. You on instagram. If you have a question for Deer Melissa or topic idea for the show. Leave me a voicemail at three two one two zero nine one. Four eight zero do. The thing is part of the onward project family of podcast brought together by Gretchen. Rueben all about how to make your life better check out the other onward project. podcasts happier with Gretchen Rubin side-hustle school and Happier in Hollywood leeward. If you liked this episode please subscribe leave a review and tell your friends to do that. They see you next week from the onward projects.

US instagram Melissa Urban partner youtube Dr Nicola Para polly Bagel Nicole Byron Katie Dr Laura PTSD Doctor La Pera Stanley Google MDR Ak Shin
Keep Your Data Kosher - DTNS 3818

Daily Tech News Show

31:50 min | 7 months ago

Keep Your Data Kosher - DTNS 3818

"Coming up on. evernote former CEO helps. liven up your video conference. Thunderbolt four could w four K. monitors, and as we work from home and become our own it manager Seth Rosenblatt keeps us all that work and personal data, separate and secure. This is the daily Tech News for Wednesday July Eighth Twenty Twenty in Los Angeles on Merit and from Studio Redwood I'm Sarah Lean Salt Lake City I'm Scott Johnson. Show's producer. As I mentioned joining us from the Pera. Lack Seth Rosenblatt back on the show. Welcome back seth. I everyone I'm here in Sunny San Francisco. It's good to have you sunny. Cisco it's an sign. Or sign of the apocalypse. The. we were just talking about our favorite pizza and pizza chains on Day Internet. If you WANNA get that wider conversation, become a member Patriot dot com slash. Let's start with a few things you should know. How Samsung announced its galaxy unpacked event will take place on August. Fifth at Ten am eastern time. Samsung is expected to announce the new newt phones, and a follow up to the galaxy fold and galaxy flip arm announced plans to spin off its two LT businesses to Softbank which arm back in two thousand sixteen Armel instead focus on its efforts on the semiconductor business. Pending Additional Review from the company's board plus standard regulatory reviews arm says it expects the shift to be complete before the end of September, it's pretty quick. Company will keep its business on the compute IP aspect of the L. O. T. I.. O. T., Internet ethics, say L. Sorry. Internet of things that. Crazy T. News report Samsung may not include chargers with its smartphones. Starting in twenty twenty one many people have compatible chargers, and the move might reduce some costs. It would also reduce waste as some unused chargers get thrown away and put Samsung in the same boat as apple, which may do the same thing. Linked added a new feature to user profiles that lets you record a ten second audio clip of how to pronounce your own name actually would come in handy. Connections you'd want to be polite. Recordings can be added through the ANDROID and Ios APPS, and played back on mobile and desktop popular game. Steamer Tyler Ninja blevins mostly known as Ninja notably left, which for Microsoft's Mixer Service? Before mixer abruptly shut things down, but still paid out his contract to fold into facebook gaming, he streamed a fortnight session on Youtube Wednesday kind of his first big return along with fellow streamer Dr Lupo Tim the tap, man and courage. Hundred Thousand People Watch that stream This is Ninjas next. I ever see on Youtube. Although no potentially exclusive contracts were announced at this time, a job listing from twitter indicates companies building some kind of subscription platform. The job listing says quote. We are a new team. code-named Griffin. We are building a subscription platform one that can be used by other teams in the future. This is a first four twitter job. Listing does not suggest what kind of subscription service this might be. This I really WanNa know. Oh Boy, do I wanNA know Reuters reports that the Federal Trade Commission and the US Department of Justice are investigating allegations. That TIKTOK has not had not fulfilled a February twenty nineteen agreement to protect user privacy specifically in that agreement tiktok promise to delete videos and personal information about users aged, thirteen and younger among other promises Tiktok Talk says it accommodates users younger than thirteen in a limited APP experience with additional safety. Safety and privacy protection and Microsoft announced several new features for its teams product together mode for instance participants on a shared background ideas to try and make you feel like you're in the same room. Dynamic gives moderators more control over how shared content is displayed like you can put pat from accounting and their spreadsheet in front of everyone and teams is also getting reaction emojis poll questions photo in video filters and more. All Right? Let's talk about a new way to video conference. Well. You're not going to believe me, but the name is it's a virtual camera that can be used with zoom Google Youtube and other video streaming services announced its private Beta private. Beta, Tuesday. This is headed by Phil Lipton or Liban Rather Co, founder and former CEO of evernote remember get your whole elephant their members. Everything goes beyond similar services that lets participants change their backgrounds, but also manipulate deck slides and zoom in and zoom out of a participants image itself to control the focus. Focus of the frame, not unlike a more traditional newscast. If you will also also allows interactive presentations It says it includes recorded video slides. It could be advanced by the audience overall played in paused. is invite only for right now back Metro S Catalina with mobile and windows versions expected in the coming months now the name may be ridiculous, but what I saw on that video looked really cool and very promising. And I don't want to laugh because that's the name of the company and it is a pal. Andrew so I will give it that. One on two on each side of the yeezy easier. That's eight and Phil Living. He kind of made fun of the fact that he's like. Name we know it. You can say when you're chewing foods and without having to open your mouth, so it's like you know they're. They're just having some fun with it. It's probably something about the fact that there aren't a lot of names things anymore, but this aside. This is very cool, and it's not that mean listen. We have experimented with a variety of meeting style software for for this show I've definitely done group zoom calls, and some others for you know maybe family and friends related stuff, but nothing that really. Struck me as Oh I could do a fun youtube. Creative show using these tools based on what I've seen that seem pretty easy, not that you can't do this in other ways, but it either requires production or more kind of clunky measure, so it's invite only I, asked for an invite I'm on the list. Who knows when I'll ever get it, but. But, I'm looking forward to trying it out. Dear Phil and we will all use it on an episode of daily technical show. Their mind. Get us at the front of the back, not only that I was thinking about this from the creative perspective of like somebody who's trying to live stream on twitch all the time I control. All of those aspects of this tool is simple enough to use. It changes the game for how I can do that stuff in real time, but I have questions about platform. Will this be virtual camera? I can use an any software like oh, BS stream labs like that. There are a few few little dangling things that I want to hear more about. Yeah they I mean they made a point of. This isn't convivial conference software itself. It's stuff you used to put your image into Zoom Google meet and Youtube which does virtual camera, but also I've used those kinds of things before, and they are buggy as all. Get Out, so man I mean snap snap camera. I'd be using snap camera right now if if it didn't you know pooped the bed every time. I tried to do it on top of some other service. I'd be a rabbit or Rainbow is or something I don't know. Are they. Are they just looking for Free Beta user if For Free Beta feedback right now when it come to be in the autumn, it's going to be a free model I think. Yeah. Wow. So. All Right Ready! We have some more people saying civil rights, experts Laura, Murphy and Meghan Cassese released in nine page report on their independent audit of fixed books, practices and policies. facebook asked them to do it, but facebook didn't have anything in the making of the report. The audit notes quote. This report outlines a number of positive and consequential steps that the company has taken, but at this point in history, the auditors are concerned that those gains could be obscured by the vexing and heartbreaking decisions. FACEBOOK has made that represents significant setbacks for civil rights, so they're saying facebook did a lot of good stuff and then the decisions they've made most recently regarding particularly certain posts including post when the president. Disappoint the auditors also. In. At the same time as this report came out, leaders of the groups that are promoting an ad, boycott of facebook met with Mark Zuckerberg and called the meeting a disappointment. Jessica Gonzales co-ceo free press said the group's quote didn't hear anything today to convince us that Zuckerberg and his colleagues are taking action, and this group very particularly has said. We want facebook to do more so again. Kind of echoing. What's in the report? Maybe what they've done up until earlier, this year was fine, but we need them to do. More and facebook doesn't seem to want to do that. One hope people might have is that the Independent Oversight Board that facebook is setting up might help with this because that oversight board can take appeals from users about moderation decisions. But that Oversight Board announced today that it will not be ready until late fall. Likely putting it after the US presidential election, so it's not going to be around to affect this for a while so so really. What's going on here? Is facebook digging in? It sounds like to me and saying we have done what we're going to do and we're. We're not willing to take this any farther at the moment. The takeaway for me was. Not whether or not they should, or shouldn't or whatever the political stance of the of the of any of the parties are. It's that. The statement here seems to be. Hey, we're cool for now. We're not gonNA. We're not going to move in too many directions. We're going to kind of be facebook the way we WANNA be facebook. Is this for right now and you're not gonNA come in here and tell us any different, and just totally surprised by that You know they probably don't WanNA swing too far in any direction at this point. Every company is going to reach a line where they say well now we would be interfering now. We think we would be doing more harm than good. And this is where facebook thinks it's linus. Well, we I mean we. We've what we've seen over over the years. Is that whether we're talking about facebook or twitter? or any other social media service that they don't make changes unless there is like a Howitzer, pointed at their head and I'm not particularly hopeful. you know that that the changes that facebook does feel compelled to make at the end of whatever gun is being pointed at them. are compelling because what we've seen as they take these after the fact actions right? They only started doing the most Gentle of reviews of posts after the two thousand sixteen election, they were doing a little bit before, but it really wasn't until after, and everyone was very upset with them for how they dealt with things that were posted on facebook or ads that were bought on facebook We're still fighting with facebook over ads. Even when twitter has said actually you guys all right? We're going to make some changes, so I'm wondering if one of the things that may be more impactful. Is a is some kind of regulation that says that social media companies must make user data portable so instead of saying. People are locked in and you're GONNA and we're going to regulate how you deal with people in you know. a consumers internally on your networks. You just have to make it so that Peop- The consumers can take their data elsewhere You don't like facebook. You can go to I we. Can't remember we be or whatever the you know. One of these new social media startups are just so that they have a little bit of a leg up right so that so that you can say hey. I took my data. My friends are gonNA. Take their data to and we're all going to be here. Things that we posted in the past. Yeah, I don't know if it would take regulation. We're seeing facebook. move toward transparency so continued pressure. Mike it than there what I would really like to see regulation or not. However there is the ability for. Something like mit solid to catch on and say your data will always be yours. No matter where you are, and you can decide who has access to it, and who doesn't and change those permissions you go on. well something that might be good news. A little bit more across the board is that qualcomm announced the snapdragon eight sixty five plus chips, plus versions of snapdragon are usually higher clock versions offered often targeted at gaming, the sixty five plus ten percent faster with a three point, one GIGAHERTZ CPU and a GP around six hundred sixty megahertz, the plus also adds fast connect sixty, nine hundred, which brings peak speeds of up to three point six gigabyte. Per Second and Wifi six EAS expanded spectrum, making it work better in crowded areas, and that's actually a really big deal depending on where you are Lenovo and will release products using the Snapdragon, eight, sixty, five plus an ACO unveil the ACIS. Are Og phone three using this new chip on July twenty seconds. Yeah, so I mean this is if you're into gaming on mobile and having more powerful gaming gaming gets better and better. These plus releases of snapdragon are news. The previous plus round brought brought a lot of game focused stuff, and this one is no exception that five six east stuff's. Though we'll, we'll have a an episode, explaining Wifi six and sixty coming up next week on, know a little more, and that really will do a lot in areas where like a stadium where they provide free Wifi. You got a lot of people using a lot of data at once in a small area is going to be great for that. Yeah well. Especially, the VR at a an advancements were making in portability in size and speed graphics capability, Vr, going to benefit a lot from. Nine to five Mac reports, references and code for Iowa's eleven Beta to Say for him. That's Weird I. was working Beta to a lot of numbers to function to let Iphone user scanning Qr code to make payments with apple pay. The feature doesn't work with an image. doesn't work, but an image gave instructions on how to use a QR. Codes could be used to generate or could be generated by the wallet. APP itself the feature is in the public system API. Implying will work with third party APPS so get ready to do it like the rest of the world been doing it for a while on man. I, you know. It's funny. We were talking before. The show is like there were a lot of breathless like look. What this hidden new functionality and I was fourteen is going to offer people just because it wasn't part of the stage. Keynote from WTC, but it's not. well first of all I think it's great idea. It's not super surprising because I am an. User of Apple pay at a select few places that take it it. There's sort of a point of sale thing to deal with. I'd notably where I used to live had a grocery store that was just like the best in every way possible, but the only took Samsung pay, and it was just like the bane of my existence, and you know there is. There's a little bit of like especially not wanting to touch things as much as possible I've really thought about this in grocery stores, but. But, just anywhere lately as like just you know being able to scan something with your own device. You know you're there. You're wearing your mask. You're not punching in a pin number or otherwise touching something just adds a little bit more security that I think is is the timing is is very ripe for this sort of thing, and it's crazy that this hasn't. Hasn't happened like I, know a friend of mine who run small businesses in San Francisco and they have store fronts, and whatever where they have to interact with people on a regular basis are very very anxious about dealing with cash, even though there is a problem where you know, you can't ban cash, because there are certain people who only have cash the vast majority. Majority of people who do have smartphones should be able to use them and why apple and Google and Samsung pushing as hard as they can to get you know device, compatibility and cross compatibility into stores and say P is just utterly mind boggling. This is such an incredible moment for them, and it feels like you're watching the ball roll down the gutter. QR codes would be a way to expand accessibility for Apple Pan right because you, a merchant wouldn't have to get new equipment that works with NFC if they've got older equipment, it's a lot easier to set up a Qr Code, which is why it's the predominant way to pay for things in large parts of Asia. China uses the QR. Code System. In fact, there are places. I think it was on the Phillies Club. I heard they were saying not using qr codes to pay for. Things seems insecure do a lot of a lot of. Right core, just like just a very clunky way to do something where there's already solution. So what we've seen if I can hang on this for one more second is that it's often credit card companies that have been the blockers to tech adoption in the US or at least in North America where they're reluctant to to go. You know for a chip and PIN cards reluctant to go for TAP to pay with those cards, even though Europe and Asia, by and large have had these services for for it for ages so I I. I mean I haven't done any any reporting or research into this recently, but I'd be very curious to see if we are seeing blocks from mastercard and visa and other payment companies. Yeah, it's A. It's a fair question. I'm curious as well. and last as the US before standard is about to launch with most of the advantages of thunderbolt, three inside Intel released specs for thunderbolt four. which adds things that US before won't have? It is the same speed as both thunderbolt three and us before at forty gigabits per second, but it can run thunderball. Four can to four K. displays supports PCIE data speeds up to thirty two GIGABITS per second. That's twice thunderbolt three and you can have a cable that's up to two meters long. And dachshund monitors with up to four thunderbolt four reports. That's up from two that you can do with thunderbolt. Three Hundred Bucks thunderbird four will use the USB. Still and support USB four and require at least one port on a computer support, charging and wake from sleep by keyboard and mouse, when a computer is connected to thunderbolt duck thunderbolt four also requires as protection against direct memory attacks, something that was optional thunderbolt three. Now it's required if you want to call thunderbird four and the controllers, which were until makes its money will ship to manufacturers later this year along with Eleventh Jen Tiger processors. Right? To get a machine that can have a pricey thunderbolt four controller at the sound I want it. Yeah, well. The funny thing is the only advantage for me and I'm using thunderbolt three lot for a lot more stuff than I thought I was gonNA. would be extra display, but right now. I don't think I need an extra four display so obviously somebody needs this, but weirdly I'm kind happy to hear that. The forty gigabyte per second speed is still. The same and I'm still okay I'm not completely obsolete for the next to you. are going to look at this wonder if apple moving to arm will also just moved to us before, because even though thunderbolt four has some advantages, not huge advantages, and it certainly cheaper to just us open standard of us before than it is to pay until two licensed thunderbolt for. Hey folks! If you want to get all the tech headlines each day in about five minutes. Be sure to subscribe to daily. TECH HEADLINES DOT COM. All right more people working from home. More people have a mix of work and personal data sloshing around on their devices and their networks because of that, and that's something you need to keep an eye on seth. How can we keep our work in our home data separate and secure? Well if you've got enough scratch, and you don't mind the effort, create an entirely separate network. Get entirely new devices and you know. Don't don't mix your your home milk with your work. Meet keep a kosher, but that's not really feasible for just about anybody so barring that you know. This is something that I've encountered a lot of different takes on from cybersecurity experts as with most things involving Cova. People are You know figuring out what the New Paradigm is. In real time so things that people were were advising early in March probably have shifted a little bit as we've settled into this constant work from home situation I think one thing that a lot of people working from home really need to think about is. Is How Older Home Wifi router is? WIFI routers are terrible. I wrote a story back in two thousand Nineteen on new research, then showing that Wi fi router security had actually decreased from the early ought to the late teens That's not good and yet you know we do now have WIFI routers that will have a patches You know updated automatically a lot like your phone or your computer does and that's really important. The get into new WI FI router. Absolutely make sure you're using two factor authentication on all of your services make sure that when you're using it that unless there's no other option than the SMS texted code for your two factor us, an authenticated APP, or ideally a be key or titan key something like that use a password manager I. Use One Password I. I use be key an Aussie as my authenticate or have these are all things that you know we've been hearing for years and and good it departments you know in in from employers will be mandating but it's really more critical now than ever you know. Especially as people are working from home and are looking at data that they're generating for their employer you know as as. You know potentially. mission. Critical data for their careers So you need to be really careful about how you deal with things. A VPN is good, but not the only thing that you need. Yeah I. Think a lot of times. VPN Had the Arctic argument with VPN is a little bit like the argument with masks. It does protect you, but it could also give you a false sense of security. You need to do other things along it right. You need to wash your hands in use a password manager. So, if and social distancing yeah so. Definitely does the data. What about if you mentioned the router like? If I just bought a newsletter yesterday I'm probably in good shape right but. Whether I need it or not. You know I mean for for one thing if your router one of the challenges with routers is that they're pretty simple boxes they they're not terribly expensive to make their commodity items, and they last forever right? Most WIFI routers will last a very very long time and just because you bought it. Even yesterday doesn't mean it was. It was made this year. It could have been sitting on shelves for three years for five years, and so there's extra due diligence that people need to do consumers need to do. Do before buying new router. There's no question. There so making sure that the router has been made recently that it has a that it supports automatic updates that you will get patches. The patches are made in the first place. and there's talk in the cyber security cyber security community about making something like an energy star rating, some sort of basic minimum standard of security that can be you know stuck onto things that you know that you're going to be getting patches on a regular basis that. You're going to be getting security updates for X. period of time, and that will of help consumers I think if and when this thing actually happens. figure out what the lifetime of these devices really should be right now. You've got to really be cautious when you're buying stuff. Check when it was made. Check reviews and it's and it's a lot of burden on the consumer, which is unfortunate and I feel like this is a place where enterprise it can step in and start making recommendations. Yeah, I mean I I as somebody who I. I had links router that worked until finally I had a comcast. Connection that the links EST redder simply couldn't deal with. I'm going to get a new router because I want you know throughput to be as good as possible, but you know I didn't really think about any of that stuff, because I was like I used to have it. It's fine, it works. Plug it in, and you're good to go. I wasn't really at the time doing work from home, so it mattered less, but the security issue is still the same. Yeah, yeah. I mean I i. actually think that more and more people should be asking their Their employer's it department for advice on these things see what they recommend and if they don't have recommendation you know, get get some of your buddies at work together, and and have people you know in on a group email saying you know we're not coming back to the office anytime soon. we need guidance on this you know. In depending on whom you work for. Maybe you know if they're providing you with a phone or a laptop, they should also be providing you with a Wifi router. Certainly they should be providing you with a enterprise level password manager support two factor authentication keys. These are not expensive things for for businesses, and they will go such a long way to protect incorporate data. And even if they don't have the budget to replace all the routers, helping you assess whether that router is. Not as important, yeah, absolutely absolutely. Well one thing will provide you with is some pretty great discussion in our discord, which you can join by linking to a Patriot account at Patriot dot com slash. DT, NS. Let's check out the Mellberg oh. Let's do it. We got so many good meal bags. Thanks in advanced everybody who sent in cat photos and also a lot of dog photos because I asked You, and your great Gary wrote in, said your conversation with Kirstin Brazier yesterday reminded me of some frustrations of Mile Job until about three years ago, I did technical support for an unspecified company that manufactured secure console servers are the folks from? From utilities military organizations city state and national governments, financial institutions, Firma, suitable companies et CETERA that all call us about how some new CV had just been issued had to be fixed right now, unfortunately given the highly customized firmware in our products, upgrading to a new version of SSH, usually took around six months of engineering work, luckily for us at the time, none of our competitors were any better dealing with security issues. Most were worse than there were the folks running ancient Vienna systems or something from the same era that we're trying to meet modern security requirements, so we no longer have products that communicate. via X dot, two five lat token ring, nor do we know of anybody who does I begged and pleaded with upper management and engineering to make our current and future products easier to patch until the dad retired and it was frustrating. Kerry. Thank you. For sharing your pain, we totally get it. It's good stuff. And unfortunately like his experiences stuff that I hear all the time all the time from from people who are either security experts or working in security engineering It's it's a real real challenge you know. Well, yeah, especially, when someone's like this is broken where? We have to work and you're like well that. Can't happen, tomorrow. Already hard like I was just thinking about this already is to get done before in the before times, and the before pandemic times imagine trying to have this stuff. Get done now like there's no feels like urgency gets pulled out of the sales a little bit. Also a bummer, but yeah I. Feel for him. This reminds me the old offices as to work in. It's giving me flashbacks. Well. If, we're in the after times we still have patrons at our master and grandmaster levels, and their great including at or Hankins John. Johnston and Chris. Smith Hey. Thanks so much to Seth Rosenblatt for being with us today at that so great to have you back. Let folks know where they can keep up with your work. Thank you, yes, you can follow me on twitter at seth are and the parallel, which is the Cyber Security and privacy news site which I founded. Four and a half years ago, now Yeah, it's crazy, we you know we struggle. It's independent journalism, but you can follow us at the payroll tax That's P. A. R. A. L. L. A. X., two great word learn it. Love it and Thank you for having me on. Absolutely also thanks to Scott Johnson Scott. Johnson you've been pretty busy man, so let folks know where they can find out what what the latest is. Going on, and there's always stuff to be seen in frog pets.com but I would recommend right now to checkout support dot, current Geek Dot, com Tom Merritt. Ni- are putting together some of the best work we've ever done in A. Really Cool long-form curated audio format that we're really excited. About can't wait for people to hear this thing We tackle really cool subjects. Have you ever wondered where the word Manna came from or mono- We learned? We have to call it from now on, and why it's so prominent today's video games and board games and things, but back in the day not so much came from a very weird place. We discuss all of. Of that we talk about thirteen men's. We talked about wrestling doug about all sorts of cool things in this first season and right now the kickstarter is going. We're a little over the halfway point of being funded. You can go there now and check it out and see what all the rewards are, and what might apply to you. Check it out at support dot current Geek Dot Com folks, the daily Tech News show masks shipped. It because I'm wearing one right now. If you would like to also be wearing one, you can do so head out to our store and get a Tina's logo on your face daily Tech News show dot com slash store. I can say for sure that Tom we're in. His tedious mask looks like he's Smiley. Very cool effect. Yeah, it's. Kind of. It's almost like a credit thing anyway. Our email addresses feedback at Daily News Show Dot Com. We are live Monday through Friday at four thirty PM eastern that twenty thirty ut, and you can find out more at daily tech news show dot com slash line. Yes, indeed, security week rolls on tomorrow Justin Robert. 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101  3 Rules to 10X Your Business In Any Economy

Early to Rise Radio

41:55 min | 1 year ago

101 3 Rules to 10X Your Business In Any Economy

"Hi, this is Craig Valentine host of early to rise radio. Have you ever wanted to become wealthier healthier wiser or just have more time to appreciate the finer things in life on this show? We reveal what high performers doing every day to be more successful without sacrificing their personal lives early. To rise radio is sponsored by the perfect day formula. Get your free copy of this game changing success guide at free perfect day book dot com now, let's get started with today's show. Chris guerrero. Thank you so much for being on the show with me today. This is going to be absolutely fantastic. How you doing? I'm doing great. Thanks good. My man good, my mess. I've known you since about two thousand and six I think you speak at an event back in the day, and you were on fire back men and you're doing so much stuff right now. And today, we're going to talk about the three rules to scale your business like ten x in any economy because I think we're coming up to that any economy, quote, unquote. So why don't you tell us? Why is this Weiss as possible for any Connie and not just in a good economy? Yeah. That's a good question. You know, I think that. Most entrepreneurs and see does no matter what the size, no matter. What the economy with the industry they're in? They get stock. Right. They get stuck mostly because they're measuring the wrong things in because they're measuring wrong things they can't ever win because their targets all messed up most companies. They look to increase their revenue in these small increments. They believe are what is acceptable cross the board in their industry. Whereas we look to increase our market share because when you control more of the market are revenue scales. For faster we attract better talents, and really everything just become so much easier to grow. I don't think anybody thinks that way. I mean, I'd never heard anybody say that phrase. And so, you know, for everybody listening right now doesn't matter if you're a gym owner doesn't matter if you have an online business matter of brick and mortar companies like idea doesn't matter, you know, Kristie of multiple multiple businesses in many many industries, this is going to work for them. Right. So that's hysterical. Because as you're saying that unthinking I was a personal trainer for years. And then I built a personal training company with almost one hundred and fifty personal trainers up on the east coast, and that I transitioned into the health club industry rights, you said something about health, and I was in the club industry for over a decade where we had we build this chain cl-. Clubs on the east coast. And then I from their sold that company through four and branched off into a partner in venture capital firm. And then, you know, over the years, I've got everything from health company to online companies to brick and mortar companies like the class action noticing firm in the legal industry, and I mean so many industries now, but everything that you said is yes, the answer is. Yes, it works in every industry because every industry is really about the same simple things when it comes to scaling, right? It's about revenue it's about reach. And it's about relationships those three things. And if we focus on those three things always increasing revenue because we can't we can't do more. We can't reach out and touch more people. We can't be happy in our lives unless we are making more revenue right businesses about creating revenue people vote with their dollars. So we want to over deliver all the time team revenue. We always want to be able to reach more people. Our message because that increases revenue increases your scale increases our happiness because we're able to get out reach more people and it's about relationships. Right. You can't do anything in business. You cannot scale. This is a taboo topic talk about, but you cannot scale without leveraging relationships in a good way hundred percent hundred percent. So before we jump into the three rules. Not only have you been in so many industries, I guess you've gone through many economies. So what would you say are some of the biggest mistakes that entrepreneurs small business owners and even bigger business owners make when the economy starts do a her? While so I'm going to answer that two ways, and then let's get into the content because I think it's going to answer all these questions. To the first answer it the exact opposite of what you ask. Because I think it's more important that understand people kill their scale. They literally chiller -bility to scale in good times. Because in good times. They celebrate. When I when we go out there, a good salesperson goes out there and close a big ass. L? What does he do? He goes out there, and he celebrates goes out with his friends and drinks or she drinks. That is the absolute worst thing to do. Right. We want to give ourselves a little bit of time to celebrate just like when something bad happens. Give yourself a little bit of time to mourn, but stay on path because when you win you have this rare chance to create momentum. And when you get that momentum you could become significantly easier to do everything else. Right. So when we're winning we wanna keep that momentum keep pushing forward most people kill their scale because when they start to win during a good economy. They start to celebrate. And that's the worst thing to we. We. Businesses during a good economy because we are not stopping celebrate. Every single time we win in a bad economy. When things get really bad. It's the exact same thing. We want to focus on the right things. We wanna focus on creating small wins momentum with every single piece of our company. We want our sales people have small wins. And we want to celebrate them when they have a small win. We wanna talk. We encourage them when they have a small win. Not set these big ass goals that the can't they can't accomplish because economies not there. Right. Set of smaller goal. Let them continuously feel the wind. Let our customer support always feel the when may let our customer's always feel a win when they are you consuming our product or service awesome. All right. So so let's get into three rules. And obviously we'll start with number one hit me up. All right. So I'm going to start this by saying man, there's you and I both know we both developed multiple companies. We know of there's a lot more ways to grow a company than just three. Things but gun to head. I really need to bring three table. These are the three that I think I would wanna bring to the table for any company. I, you know, I usually work with companies that are already scaling a little bit. But these the Ray will work, even if people are just barely breaking the million dollar, Mark number one. It is more about relationships than it is about sales because you can leverage your relationships to make a million time more sales in any business in any industry in any Konami. The focus has to be on expanding your relationships in that could be legibly prospects with your customers with your employees with your with your with your vendors with your mentors with everybody. Give you some examples that way, see how we've done this in the past. We have relationships with radio stations. Right. We went into real radio stations, not the internet radio stations. We win into their longtime ago. And we said, hey, here's one do wanna create this one little advertisements. And we wanna see if it sells. And and we started with. One radio station. Small local radio station tested out a couple ads on it. And it started working well, and then we sat down with a relate radio station. We said, hey, we've been running this ad for a couple months. Now, I want you to see where running with a tracking Lincoln. We're not running to a fallen support system because we didn't have a call center at the time. We literally had a website, and we were trying to send people to a website with with radio. We would send them there. And we would sit down with a radio station. We would show them. This is how many sales are coming in. And since we did that we actually showed it to him. We showed this is how much you're charging me for the spot. That's just call it allows in bucks. They're charges for the spot. And this is how much we're making. We're making bows of dollars. And if you were an affiliate we'd be paying you playing percent, which would be like, let's just call it two or three times the amounts, but we are paying you now. So we create these relationships over time with these radio stations where now all these radio stations across the nation are literally advertising for us during their remnant time. During time that they didn't have advertisers in there. They're putting our ads in there for free for us and sending us a ton of sales. So. It took a wild get that. So when you are talking about relationships, these are not one hit wonders or not like overnight kind of success. They are hey, let's put the timing. Let's win this personal. Let's talk to them show them proof, and then get them to a stronger relationship further and further down the road. We had a relationship also in one of our health companies that I think, you know, about because you and I had talked in the past about this where? We had a relationship with a NASCAR team in the NASCAR team after building that relationship harder and harder. They were willing to wrap the entire car with our with our brand. So we had our brand our logo on the size on the back on the front of this car during the NASCAR during the tone of five hundred qualification race was one of the races that we ran it in. So I have a question to ask you if you had a relationship, you were you're leveraging radio stations across the nation to advertise for free for you. If you had a NASCAR wrapped in your logo. And I don't I'm not a NASCAR fan. But let's just assume that most of your listeners know more about NASCAR than I do. But I believe that more people watch NASCAR than football baseball and soccer combined them pretty sure that's as the tick. So if you had radio stations advertising, if you had your car wrapped on NASCAR, do you think you'd be able to make a few more sales than you're making right now. And by the way, there is no cost for us for either one of those because we had relationships with those companies so. So the biggest question that I get from a lot of people is well, I live here. And I don't know anybody. And so how how do they do that? So it's it's it's a promise you be on shot of every single person has brothers sisters cousins mother who is a model would be glad to advertise or be a spokesperson for their product. Or has a, you know, a local chain of stores that would put flyers in there, or whatever it is developing that relationship from small to larger to larger larger and what I'm talking about relationships. It doesn't have to be big radio stations. It could be developing relationships with your customers your existing customers. We over deliver every single time to anybody who works with us, and we get repeat buys or we build such a great relationship with their customers that they refer more people to us. It doesn't make a difference. It has you have to leverage your relationships, and we could go even deeper, and we could say here to the very best decisions. I ever made ever in business when it comes. To relationships number one, get rid of the people I had to get rid of the people who were holding me back and replace them with people who had a track record of accomplishing what I wanted to accomplish in my life with with that business. So that one thing of upgrading my relationships made huge difference another another thing with relationships in business. The second great decision that I made was hiring mentors going out there and finding people who had a track record note. Let's define track record if you wanna sales person, you don't go to sales person who was great selling one one one time. They went out there. They made one Big Joe, you don't go to one who made to great sales. If you wanna know how to build a company, you don't go to somebody who built one great company, and then decided to write a book about it or two great companies inside to write a book about you want. Somebody who has a tracker one two three four five times because you know, it's predictable. So I went out there years ago when I decided I'm going to start hiring mentors in every area of my business that I needed to to excel in and when a when. Came in and exceeded my expectations for twelve months or more than I offer them a seat on either my board of directors because wore directors for one company and for other companies that have a board of advisors I over the seat there. Because though now I've got this powerful network of people who can actually help me move everything forward in their being compensated when we move forward. Right. So relationships on every level has been he changed in everyone of our companies. Yeah. Absolutely number very much. Like, he was the mentor thing somebody who has been there and done that who's achieved would I want to achieve. That's my number one rule forgetting a mentor and someone who has experience like you of cheating, so many things in so many different industries at scaling it. So many different levels. I mean, that's a relationship that I am very grateful that have with you. So so anything else on rule number one? No, it's relationships rights. All it's more about relationships. Than it is about sales. That's awesome. Awesome. All right rule. Number two two. It's more about the big decisions than it is about the small daily decisions because you could mess up so much with your daily decisions still scaling eight figure company or even greater but big decisions like. What industry to go into? That's a huge decision that a lot of people have so those big additions play a huge role in the growth of your company. So let me give you an example, when you went very first met, it was right after I think I had gotten out of the health club industry, and I took my knowledge of marketing offline I brought it online I was selling thirty nine dollar e book, and we have set up these processes in the systems in these teams actually help me get out there with no contacts. No idea what the heck to do. I didn't even know I was supposed to be collecting Email addresses when I made a sale online. I was such a virgin with online stuff no clue where to begin no clue about anything. But we were selling these nine e books, and we ended up creating these these great systems and working worked. Really well. And we ended up selling over sixty thousand copies of migrate. I spoken for six days. Three hundred nineteen thousand copies in the first year. We did very. Oh, well, right because we had good systems in place that had taken from the offline industry experience that I had put it online. Now after that. I had so many people coming to me a companies that were both online and offline asking me will how we doing this. How are we getting our message out to millions of people and how we funneling the man in creating these relationships with them and selling them these books, and so we started this branding company the same systems the same processes that. We were using in my company to sell thirty nine dollar book. Now, we were able to help other companies and they were paying two three four five thousand dollars a month to help themselves. So same systems to sell our e book that were now using to sell two thousand hour or four thousand our five thousand our package and then shortly after that we had two guys comes me who were attorneys in the in the class action field, and they said, hey, what you're doing here with getting this message out to all these different people is like light years ahead of what we do in the class action. In industry, and what we'd like to create this class action noticing firm, and we'd like you to be partner in it. So after a longtime of negotiating trying to figure out what the heck a class action notices and how I would fit into this. We ended up creating this company called green class notes, which is now one of the America's largest internet based class action nosing firms out in California's tremendous company, the exact same systems the exact same processes the exact same core. Competencies that we were using to sell thirty nine e book, and then in the branding company to sell two thousand dollar or even more product in the class action. For our minimum ticket is two hundred fifty thousand dollars same processes same core, competency different industry with deeper pockets who could use our services it a much bigger way. Right. So making a big decision really focusing on the big decisions, you could screw up on a lot of small decisions and still do very well. So many people struggle with that though, they. In two ways one. They don't know how to do big thinking. So let's cover that one. I they don't how to do big thinking. How how do we teach that in past that? Geez. You know what? Believe you, and I have a similar trait where we think on paper like I've been I've been taking notes this whole time. If you see me popping down taking knows about what I wanna talk about I-, whiteboard everything. So every single every single meeting that I have with my team, even if they're vendors is on a whiteboard, and if their vendors, and they're not in my office, like our pay traffic people or or another team that we might work with a red design people. I will have them on monitors behind me, and I will have a big whiteboard. And I as they're describing things I have to wipe board it all out. So that every single person over there conc- all the little pieces of the puzzle that go into it. So thinking big is getting the right people on your bus, either camping big with you or can help you in that one or two little areas that they have a strong core competency, and so if I was just starting out in a really needed to big, but he didn't know how to do it. What? I would do is. I would get a piece paper out, and I would try to create his organizational chart for what I want to accomplish. Right. And on top at org chart. I would write down my big and results goal. An underneath that. I try to figure out who I would need on my bus in order to help me recycle. And then try to set up a meeting with them either. Hire them for short amount of time to brainstorm with me or try to create some kind of relationship. They'll help me brainstorm just to figure out all the little tasks that need to happen in order to reach that big goal in order think outside the box and get up there. Because during that rainstorm things are gonna change. They're going more. They're going to become much more clear. So that one goal you put up there may change that it will become far better for you. And you'll have a clear path forward. Amazing amazing. All right. So on the flipside most people don't know how to get out of the little thinking the little stuff that the kind of stapled to you know, when maybe a little bit of a personal story about how you able to do that. Or how you're able. To help other people do that. Yeah. Well, I definitely understand that feeling each time. I changed industries. In the beginning. It was literally like. Looking into a closet a dark closet like I didn't know what I would do after I got out of the personal training industry. Like didn't could not picture myself in the health club industry. What I was thinking about selling that company. I couldn't picture myself doing anything else. I literally didn't know was black in front of me. So this is a this is a case for jumping into the fire and saying holy crap. What do I want? What do I want to achieve what my lifestyle's will look like? And if I can figure out what I want my lifestyle to look like like, then I can figure out very easily what pieces to put in in the puzzle in order to get there. And I'll tell you in my life. I want my life to be relaxed. I love working. So I will work a lot every single day. No matter what. But I love more spending time with my kids. I love more spending time with my family. I love being on vacation era things that I need in my life other than work to make me happy. So my business every single one of the assets that I have each one of the companies that I have is set up to work synergistically reach other. So that each company we create helps the other ones to grow. So that I don't have to get diffused looking at all these different things. I stay inside of my little box by core competencies, and I try to surround myself with people who can fill in the polls for everything else. So that I could stay my happy place. So it's all about trying to figure out what your life won't you want? You elect to look like you put the pieces of the puzzle in place that are gonna get you there. Yeah. You know, one of the things that you Chris talk about core. Competencies more than almost any other person that I've ever talked to. Explain why that is so important for somebody to understand and stick to and then how does somebody figure out and go about deciding what those are. Well, I'll tell you exactly how we do. Figure out exactly what our core competencies are. But why it's important? I. It's important because if you don't stay within your core competence, you'd get -fused. It's important because if you don't stay within core competencies, you are very much less effective in anything that you do. So I understand has scale companies. Right. I understand how to build teams stand build systems when it comes to businesses. I'm good with that. I'm also very good with building culture. Because if you do these three things, right, you build culture with inside your company, if you do it wrong, you screw the culture up. Right. So it's a it's a marriage of these three or four things I'm very much not good at certain things. So if I, but but every once in a while, I will still do them because either I have an ego. And I think I'm good at them or I just want them done so fast that I need to get them done. I'll give you an example. I want change something on my website. Like, I got we've got a bunch of different websites. If I know beyond shadow of doubt that there's a website that I wanna change I wanna test something change some words on it. I may still log in and change it. You would think gosh, this guy owns these. You'll decent companies. Why would even go in there and change of website in the reason is because I think I can improve it better than somebody else. Sometimes. And when I do that screw things up the I've been there's been times where I've literally shut down website by mistake because I hit the wrong dang because I was in there trying to make one little change got frustrated shut the whole damn being that had a call. My tech guy to fix everything. You don't step out of your core. Competencies you figure out what they are. And you stay in there. What makes you super happy? The easiest tool that we use for that. Is it like three sixty review? I say it's the easiest because it's usually not done by you. It's not simple because you do have to get people on board who are smart to help you with it. So three sixty review is like a good dick questionnaire that you give to your employees, if you have employees, I give them to my vendors. If we have good vendors that we've been working with for a long time. I give them with my to my mentors. I give them to my board of directors. I give them to my friends. So any of those that you have in your life? Most people won't have a board of directors. So don't put that on your list, you give them to everybody in if they fill them out truthfully on you. You've got this ten page questionnaire. That's asking how is how is Craig when it relates to, you know, relating to his team is Craig high-energy all the time is Craig this is Craig Craig and then you're for. The time. Greg is definitely not high in energy all the time. Well, that's so that's so we are we work very well together when we talk because I'm super high energy constantly, right? You're not, but you are super graded other things that bring me back up here. Right. So us whenever we get together. We complement each other incredibly, well, which makes us really good connection. Every once in a while to to brainstorm on things, and you have to surround yourself with people like that. But I need to know I'm gonna work with you. But you may not be high energy all the time. So you need to know that also. So these three sixty reviews not only help you with that. But it helps everybody else understand how to work best with you obsolete. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome stuff. So with the big thinking and avoiding the little thinking is there anything else in that area. That people need to understand is absolutely essential. If they wanna scale in any of these communists that we're dealing. You know, I don't know that it relates to that. But I will tell you that very very similar to the banking the questions that you ask yourself, and we consistently inside of every company that I have we instill three questions into everybody who works for us. Number one is what is the absolute best use of my time right now. So I asked myself this question constantly throughout the day. Every single person who works with us ask themselves as question throughout the day. It's Pera tive that if you're going to be on your game all the time you have to know what the best use of your time is right now. So if you're in fact, I've got a plaque on our on my door office door right now that says was the best use my time right now, I need always know that. So does everybody else? So question number one. Because number two is what should I start stop and continue, right? Or or stated another way what's working what's not working. And what do I absolutely need to start doing right now? So what should I start? Stop continue doing the third question is NS this question. The third question is anytime you ever implement anything. So you implement something new you ask yourself. This question are the results better worse or the same right at that point? You will know should I continue doing this right to implement or should I stop it? And try move onto something else. Perfect. Very, very helpful. Awesome stuff. All right so rule. Number three. Chris. Let's third rule then to our listeners can take skill businesses. So we did we did it's more about relationships than sales. We did. It's it's more about the big decisions in the than the daily actions. The third one is it's it's more about culture than is about your employees or your vendors. And I think most companies get this wrong. When I go into a company, whether it's as an owner advisor investor or partner, this is one of the biggest things that is a challenge. Most companies believe that you build a team first. And then you try to build a culture around team. In fact, most executives will try to figure out how the heck he's supposed to build a culture before you even have team. You know, it's however the culture attracts the right people. Right. So culture should. In the perfect world. Always come before team. And the way we do that is we start with our values. What are my personal values? What is the reason why I'm building this company? What is the reason why I want to grow the company? What is what is it that? I am an absolutely not going to going to falter on like, I commit to this this this and this, and I could share some of our corporate values with you. If you want, but you gotta know your values in every single company that I ever go into we have five to eight values that we live by that every single person in the company by if you come into my company, sit down and talk to me for a few minutes, you'll understand some of my values if you walk around to some of our people you just start talking to them at their desk. You will see the same values emanate from the words that they use. It's super super important, we build values I and that filters the people that you attract, and that's one of the reasons why we go into a company I could go into a company scale at two three four times its growth curve because strategic values attract. Right people, and you could experience significant growth by adding just one great person, even if they're running crappy systems, but we can't do you. Absolutely cannot do is grow a company with great systems in crappy people so make sense. Absolutely. So I would love to hear some of your core values, and what you look for in the culture that you want to build around your company's may, well, maybe the company that you know, where you do your consulting. And then maybe in in some of the other ones suit. Yes. So. The values that I'll go over literally I've taken hundreds of hours to clean up and in in creating we try to make the shortest possible. So that people get on the soon as they soon as here, and it's important when you're building your values that the values that you build mean, something they really mean something to you. So you're -ployees to your prospects to your customers to your potential investors to potential companies that may acquire you every single value has to have a meaning everybody hears it, so one of our values, and I'll take this from just one of our companies because they do differ from company to company we give before we take like no matter what what a prospect comes to us. They should know that we're gonna give before we ask anything in return. We're gonna give before we take in every single instance period, the end, and if we have somebody on board like let me give an example, we bring we bring employees yen. We're gonna train them. If they actually earned the right to get hired by us than we are going to train, the we're gonna put a lot of time into training them. So that they are a rockstar before I want them to actually start working and doing their job. And then after they start doing their job after baby two weeks of doing their job. We're gonna bring them back in and we're going to retrain them a little bit. Because the very first training that employee goes ruined any company, they're drinking through firehose. They're just learning so much. There's no way they can retain all that. And really be the best that they could be that company. I want everybody in our company to be the best that they can be. So after they we've trained them hard, and they start working we'll pull them back will retrain them for a little bit. And then then they could be like, oh now, I get everything that I learned in the first training session right now, I understand actually lived it for a couple of weeks. Amend may go back and they can excel. Right. So we're going to give before we take. We next value is revalue integrity over sales. I would give up sale in in a split second. If. It was going to hurt my integrity. I would not in our consulting practice. I would never work with a company that I don't believe is honest, ethical moral legal, and they are really out there to help the greater, you know, the greatest number of people possible. I was interesting that you, and I had a conversation about this recently. I said, hey, you know, what about having this guy's a partner, and you're like, no, no that it's something and wash your hands of it. And you know, could it could have been a revenue stream. But you are not interested in it at all what it was an it wasn't one of those things that you could see you like weighing back forth. There was just, you know, cut drive. Yeah. Yeah. I remember exactly what you're talking about. And the give and take thing. I think that's you know, this podcast is in another great example of the the stuff that you have given just in the thirty minutes. A we've been talking about is like downloading two decades worth of business business growth experience, which you know, most people wouldn't be able to get from ten books. So this is absolutely fantastic. Is there another another core value that you'd like to share the that just means the world out shoot through a few more? We create long-term relationships with our customers vendors ourselves. I look for long term relationships. I don't want an employee for a couple of days at one vendor to come in just do a one time project. I don't wanna customer who's just gonna buy one thing. And then leave right? I want to customers can come in. And we're gonna help change their life or change their business, and I want an and then I will build a friendship with Al Bill relationship with them. And it's gonna be terrific, we constantly grow a reach. Now, the great majority of companies have this stupid value that their constant going to Inc. Increase their revenue or they're they're going to increase sales every quarter. And that kills their growth. Right. No ploy wants to work with a company like that for long-term. No prospect of your prospects. See that your goal of sales. That's absurd. Right. But we constantly grow a reach which means whether a prospect or a customer or employee see or investor see or we see it. They know that we really do want to help the grace people possible in our in every single company that we have so growing reach as we got we will always work to get. Our message out bigger will always reach work to get our a reach up and touch the lives of more people are touch more companies in a positive way. So the better better goal, we seek track records of success over one time wins you when I already talked about that we work as a team, and we judge ourselves by daily actions. That's list of you know, our values for one of our companies. Absolutely. And I mean, just with the number of people that have helped so many different industries. Let alone just. The number of books you sold it's been massive massive impact. So so some of those three rules one more time for everybody listening yet. So we believe it's more about relationships than it is about sales, your you could leverage your relationships to make so many more sales. It's more about the big decisions that you make than about your daily decisions. You wanna make sure you are really walking the right path might you could turn left turn, right? A little bit. But you wanna walk the right path gets your end right and goal. And then it's more about culture, the culture the developed than it is about your employees because when you develop the right culture than your employees will be so much happier. Even if you don't have implies yet, you will attract amazing talents to help you drive the growth of your company. So what are you excited about next? What it you super excited about in your businesses or in some of the businesses that you're working with the trends the opportunities that you see coming where my excited about. Well, will everything that we do? Is is built to help increase ridge to help improve the companies that we work with. So I am super excited about you. And I were talking about a event that we're putting on shortly called built to grow. That's a tremendous opportunity for us because I get a chance to work with small handful of entrepreneurs who are really looking to grow their companies that's one day event. But I'm also super excited like the most juice that I get during my week is when I work with a few other companies in in something called club twenty eight. So for for which I believe, you know, but most of your listeners don't my week set up like this every single day Monday, Tuesday Thursday and Friday every single week those four days, I work on my own companies where nine ninety nine thirty. I look at our metrics for every single company, and I will figure out what what are the red flags were the things that are working. What's not working what we need to stop doing what he'd start doing? A look at our metrics from nine to nine thirty for each one. The company that I my hands from nine thirty to twelve thirty. I am working with teams. I'm literally having meetings with every single leadership team in each one of my companies to help them move forward. According to the metrics that I just looked at and from twelve thirty two three since I'm an employee of every company that I have I'm doing what I do best with micro compasses push things forward from three o'clock on I with my kids. But on Wednesdays what I'm most juice about is my Wednesday. I get a chance to really work with some really high growth entrepreneurs. So that's club twenty. That's the consulting firm that you, and I that, you know, about inside of my company where we work with some companies that are doing they're they're all aggressive growth companies. Some of them are doing, you know, maybe a million or so year. Some of them are doing several billion dollars a month. Right. So there are some huge brands in there. And then there's there's some companies that are just really scaling up nicely. And that's what really juices jazz me. I'm on the phone is called cult twenty eight because we only twenty eight. Openings in there. And I'm on the phone literally from six o'clock until late at nighttime at the end of that when I'm done a hang up with them. I am so juice jazzed excited that I literally have to read a book or talk to somebody over here in just decompress. Otherwise, I can't fall asleep. Amazing now one of the other things this is maybe a little less business related in. How you don't work all the time. I mean that one day you're very very busy work a lot of hours. But, you know, you're like telling me, you know, nine three thirty, you know, pick up the kids hang out with them, man. This is this is obviously a great example of big thinking. But is there anything else that has allowed you to do that over the years? The you know the way that you've set that up. Yes, committing stay inside of what we're talking about hormone core. Competencies as soon as I start to do things outside of my core. Competencies it takes a lot more of my time and cannot be affective at growing companies. So understand what my core competencies are commit to staying in there as much as I possibly can. I do I mess up. I do things because like I said before I have a bit of an ego end and then try to slowly surround yourself with people who can't who have. Great core competencies with things that are not inside of my box. Right. So I stay in my box. I get people who can stay inside of their boxes. And when I leave at three o'clock every single day except for Wednesdays when I leave I know that I'm leaving things in people's hands. That are going to continue to work and driving's forward doing what they do. Best mazing amazing. And they could be vendors. I'm not talking about just employee's talking about sea-level people or or mid level management. I'm talking about also if you have a small company vendors who are super good at paid traffic or super good customer. Supporters super good at whatever getting your word out. Your message out. Absolutely awesome. Obviously awesome. Tell me just I know you kinda glossed over this. Tell me a little bit more about club twenty eight. I think it's so important. You know for people understand like, hey, I love Christmas stuff. You know, what would be a way to to work with Chris? So just a little bit more about club twenty eight how much first attention. They get from you whether the weekly calls or anything else that would be cool. Yes. So if anybody is interested neck on stuff, the first thing, you do just go research me a little bit look on my site. It's Chris Guerrero dot com. It's certainly not an easy last name spell. So search it out. It's Chris Guerrero dot com. Remember if I can spell, it's G U E R R I E R O. And I am thoroughly impressed and honored. I've been wrong many times. Yeah. Chris Guerrero, G U E R E R O. And if you go there you'll be able to see a little bit about what I've done. You'll also be able to see if you click on the tab has results you'll see case studies of people who have said, hey, this is this is what we get out of our time with Chris and clip twenty eight is one day a week. If you have the the if you could if you have a business, and you can handle additional growth, and you could commit an hour a week to sitting down and talking to somebody who's already built many different companies up. And I mean, a literally built a over dozen companies some of them seven figures four eight figure. In a couple of failures. So I've learned some lessons also on the way. But if that's interesting to you than that. It's one day a week. I get on the phone personally with you. Sometimes I invite some of my team if I believe that that is also gonna help push you forward a little bit further. If you need some specialized information that my team has, but I'm still there. So it's one day a week in every single week. We literally had on the phone, and we talk about where you are what you've been doing what we need to do in order to get to next level next week in every single week. We try to scale your company so that between now and several months or year down the road. We are literally collapsing these timeframes and utilizing every tool and every system and every contact that I have to help take you from where you are to the next level. And you know, it's it's kinda fun. Again. We got some pretty great brands in there and you'll see a lot more about it on the site. Awesome. I can tell what you're so excited after you get up those call. So Chris thank you so much for being on here. Now, I will. Add that, you know, somebody can't spell Chris's name just be just, you know, feel free to Email support at early to rise dot com. Say, hey, I want to get in touch with Chris, Chris the Guerrero and the gorilla, and we'll get you in touch with him. It's gonna be absolutely my pleasure because I've learned so much from Chris over the years known him for. I was gonna say fifteen years almost has been fifteen years. It's almost too many to to admit to. So Chris thank you so much being on here. Just downloading your years experience really appreciated. Hey, one last thing before we go anybody who wants to get a little bit more information about me and get a little bit more tactics. If you believe that you've got a company who that's ready to scale than go to the site Guinness, Chris Guerrero dot com. HRIS G U E R E R dot com. If you go there, just scroll to the bottom, and he could download a report that is the latest tactics on what the fastest growing companies are tracking in their business. It's fascinating gives you a lot of great content. There's sales pitch in their ailing just go to the bottom of the page, and you could grab it right there. And it'll show you the fastest growing companies inside a club twenty eight are tracking light now. And if you lament those chances are you're gonna see some spectacular results in your company to absolately, I have downloaded. It was very helpful. So thank you very much. Thank you, Craig.

Chris guerrero partner NASCAR Craig Craig Craig Valentine Weiss Konami Connie California Ray Lincoln America Joe Greg Pera
327 - 6 Truly Creepy Things that Can Happen While You Sleep

The Savvy Psychologist's Quick and Dirty Tips for Better Mental Health

19:29 min | 5 d ago

327 - 6 Truly Creepy Things that Can Happen While You Sleep

"Before i start today's show here's a quick word from our sponsor. Are you looking for trusted. Self-help books look no further than green tree from bloomsbury publishing. Green tree is committed to publishing the very best and health and wellness with books like sleep recovery time to breathe and fear free food. Green tree will help you navigate stress. Take care of yourself and find a little happiness for thirty percents off your green tree order on bloomsbury dot com enter. Promo code savvy at checkout. Have you ever woken up in the middle of eating a sandwich felt paralyzed in your own bed. Or maybe you've heard an earth shattering explosion just as you were falling asleep that nobody else heard. While there's a name for these strange happenings. In the night there called paris sambas. Welcome back to savvy psychologist. I'm your host dr wu. Every week i'll healthy meet. Life's challenges with evidence based research a sympathetic ear and zero judgment today will learn about pera sonya a truly bizarre set of sleep disorders that are super fascinating and sometimes a little frightening in eighteen thirty three in springfield massachusetts. A young servant woman named jane began to attract attention from the four most medical experts of the time. She was asleep walker and her sleepwalking was extraordinary. She will get out of bed and complete full sets of chores like setting the table arranged clothes. One witness even saw her thread a needle so a cloth bag and use that bag to cook a piece of meat in a boiling pot of water. All in the dark all while she was asleep sadly jane strange symptoms landed her in an insane asylum. The eminent doctors of the time tried all sorts of tinctures medicines and even leaching by her sleepwalking was never cured. She eventually convince her doctors. Just give up on her and she was able to go back to living a quiet life thankfully but jane was not the first nor the last sleep walker to capture the public's morbid curiosity in one thousand nine hundred eighty seven. A canadian man named kenneth parks drove fourteen miles to his in laws home and killed his mother in law with a tire iron covered in blood. He went straight to the nearest police station to confess and he claimed that he was asleep. During this whole event and a later sleep study did show that has brain. Activity was indeed very abnormal ultimately. The jury found him to be innocent of murder. And since then a few dozen homicide cases have hinged on the sleepwalking defense now infamous. What both jane. And kenneth parks experienced were para yes. This is a term that covers a range of sleep and disturbances from the common to the truly bizarre these extreme sleepwalking events that we just talked about very rare. You're incredibly unlikely to threaten needle commit in your sleep. In fact sleepwalking homicides are so extremely rare and they're still doubt as to whether sleepwalking is really what was happening in those cases but some degree of sleepwalking is actually pretty common and so are other para saamna symptoms so today. Let's take a look at them and talk about what they are and what you can do about them. Let's start by delving a little bit deeper into sleepwalking. It's medical name is somnambulent him. If you've ever woken up and found yourself outside your bed with no idea how you got there you may have experienced it. You may even have woken up to find yourself looking at a half eaten cake in the middle of phone conversation or even driving. And that's why sleepwalking isn't just spooky for onlookers. It can actually be dangerous in fact more than half of adult sleep. Walkers have exhibited violent behaviors while sleepwalking. Seventeen percent have ended up with enough injury to need medical attention like one patient in a big study who jumped out of a third floor window while totally asleep. The real 'nigma is that mostly walkers don't feel pain while sleepwalking. Even if they're getting injured so what to do about all this while if you see someone. Sleepwalking gently guide them back to bed. Don't try to wake them up. If you sleepwalk repeatedly talk to your doctor about reviewing your medications or possibly getting sleep study meanwhile you may want to lock the front door hydrocare keys. Put away anything else. That can be dangerous before going to bed and weirdly enough. Sleepwalking can be triggered by strong positive emotions. Of course you should avoid all things joyful just for the fear of sleepwalking. But if you're prone to sleepwalking. Consider meditating and doing a wind down period before bedtime to help you be more even killed as you enter sleep. Now let's talk about a close cousin to or maybe even something that falls under the umbrella of sleepwalking. And that's sleep related eating disorder. This is one someone involuntarily eat food while they're sleepwalking and like sleep walkers. Sleep eaters often also have insomnia and sleepiness during the day. But it's possible that some of them have more awareness during sleep eating episodes than regular sleep walkers sometimes this can lead to significant weight gain because those who have a sleep related eating disorder cannot control their food intake during the night to help yourself with this avoid alcohol and drugs decreased stress and keep a regular sleep. Wake schedule if these don't help asleep. Doctor may prescribe medications or check to see if there are other underlying sleep or other medical problems. Now talk about something. That looks like sleepwalking. Sometimes but it's not it's called a remm behavior sleep disorder or be d for short. This happens when someone acts out their dreams so first of all one difference between rb d. or ram behavior sleep disorder and sleepwalking into that. Rpd happens during rem sleep which you have in the second half of the night whereas sleepwalking usually happens during deep sleep which you get during the first half of the night. another difference. is that during a sleepwalking episode. The sleeper is not dreaming and is not at all aware of what they're doing for the most part. Their behaviors are pretty common neutral but during an rpd episode. The sleeper is dreaming. An acting out whatever is happening in that dream and it's usually a violent action like fighting or running or jumping out of bed though sometimes it can also be a sophisticated action like playing the piano. Usually your brain essentially turns off your muscles. Something called remmy tonia so you don't act out your dreams because obviously this can get you into trouble for someone with rpd. The safety mechanism fails and their dreams spills over into the body playing it like a puppet so what to do about ram behavioral sleep disorder. Well here safety is the most important concern. Most patients have no idea. They were acting out their dreams until their bed. Partner ended up with a black eye or they woke up to find themselves. Terrorizing the dog. So listen to your spouse when they say that you've been acting out at night then consult asleep neurologist. Who can help you to manage your symptoms. Now let's talk about sleep terrors. They're also called nightmares. Sleep terror seem well terrifying. You might sit up in bed or even jump out of bed screaming and inconsolable for few seconds or even a number of minutes. Sometimes people use the term sleep tears and nightmares interchangeably. But they're actually totally different nightmares. Our dreams that are disturbing sometimes scary enough to wake us up in a panic and might even affect our moods during the day. These typically happen in the second half of the night because dreaming happens mostly during rem sleep. I've actually dedicated a whole episode previously to nightmare prevention. So check that out. If you're interested in contrast nightmares sleep terrors happen during deep sleep which is during the first half of the night where there are no dreams involved. Someone in the middle of sleep tear episode is not really awake. Their disoriented terrified and can't really coherently talk about what's happening the next morning. They may not even remember what happened if someone woke you during asleep. Dare you would have no idea why you were feeling so scared. What to do about sleep. Tears will first thing to know is that there are ashley. not uncommon. in young children. thankfully soup tears are not harmful in and of themselves. And they're really more scary for the parents than the kids themselves who don't even usually remember their nighttime horrors. The next day for parents you should not try to wake the child up during sleep terror but instead calmly monitor their safety during the event and act normally during the day. If the sleeper to happened at the same time of the night you can gently wake up your child about half an hour before the usual tear time this can often prevent asleep tariff from happening at all and making sure your child gets enough sleep can help to and don't worry having sleep terrorist doesn't mean that your kid has emotional problems or trauma. They'll most likely outgrow the disorder. So you can finally get some sleep yourself to the next couple of pera. News list are sleep paralysis and hypno- gojic or hypno- pomp hallucinations. If you've ever woken up completely unable to move and perhaps felt a heaviness on your chest and a sense of fear or doom you have experienced a sleep paralysis. Sometimes along with policies. People also see hear or feel things that aren't there. These are called hypno- gojic or hippo. Pomp host nations usually people describe seeing shadowy figures in the room or standing over their bed or spiders crawling on their walls or in their bed. And we've talked about the sleep paralysis and related hose nations in another episode recently including how these experiences have spawned alien abduction theories so check that out. I really love that episode now. What to do about sleep paralysis. And these hoes nations well just like for most other para niyaz consistently getting enough sleep keeping us steady sleep schedule and avoiding substances could help and last but not least. This is a truly interesting and bizarre. And i think my favorite paris omnia. It's called exploding head syndrome. This is where a person hears or feels a very loud noise in their head usually during that blurry period just before falling asleep or just upon waking which i like to call the twilight zone so the loud noises can feel like an explosion inside your head. No there's usually no pain involved or they can sound like a loud banging or crashing a door slamming or thunder or electric crackles and this is a pretty rare and interesting one sleep. Scientists have not quite reached a consensus on exactly why this happens but it seems that stress and emotional tension might make it more likely to occur usually just putting a name to it and learning that the scary experience doesn't actually indicate any serious problems is enough to help so we've cover some interesting sleep disorders today including sleepwalking sleep eating ram behavioral sleep disorder which is acting out your dreams nightmares nightmares and the really creepy sleep. Paralysis and hallucinations go along with them and the aptly named exploding head syndrome. So let's do a quick roundup of the tips that we have for what to do about parasol because usually these are about the same for the different parasol mia's whether you have just one of them or a couple of them experienced frequently or infrequently there are few universal. Things tend to help. Generally speaking parasol can be decreased by having better quality sleep overall or they might be a medication side effect or symptom of a more serious medical condition. Some of these. There might not be too much you can do about them besides seeing asleep neurologist or getting a sleep study to learn more about your condition before some of these you can at least start by trying. The following i ensure safety locked doors and put away car keys. Maybe sleep in a separate room from your spouse or partner and keep sharp on. It's out of reach number to stabilize your sleep schedule. Parasol me as often happened. Because of an incomplete transition between waking and sleeping by keeping a steady biological clock you can actually help your brain to transition between sleep and wake more normally and thereby preventing some parasol symptoms and related to that number. Three is to get enough sleep. Sleep deprivation is a very common trigger for para. Samis especially for sleep paralysis. This might be why students who are notorious for pulling all nighters are more prone to this symptom. Tim number four is a minimize alcohol and drugs substances that affect your brain function which is most recreational drugs and alcohol of course can affect your sleep and even your dreaming tip. Number five is to ask your doctor about your medications. Sometimes medications prescribed for insomnia depression or other psychological disorders might actually induce parasol niyaz as a side effect. There may be other options or options to adjust your medication. They're actually causing nighttime problems for you. And lastly you can ask your doctor about getting a sleep study if none of these other tips help sometimes symptoms like sleep related hallucinations and sleep. Paralysis might actually indicate narcolepsy acting out dreams and having frequent. Nightmares might indicate a neurological or psychiatric condition which also requires specialized care but sometimes paris obviously sleep tears or exploding head syndrome might not indicate anything at all getting a full workout with a sleep. Specialist can help either to reassure you or the point you towards the right treatment initially just an additional note and a personal note to is that in the first four weeks postpartum rate. After i had my baby. I experience almost every single para sonya except for sleepwalking. I don't think i did that but i did. All of the other ones in the book so sometimes just by virtue of having your sleep totally disrupted like we mentioned not getting enough sleep sleeping at different times unusual having sleeping broken up. Can induce these parasol mia's but you'll be happy to hear that after these first few weeks my is completely went away after my sleep stabilized when my baby sleeps started to stabilize a little bit too so now everything is fine. So if you're experiencing temporary paris omnibus due to a temporary change in your sleep. Don't worry too much. This is not a forever thing it'll probably resolve on. Its own when your sleep goes back to normal dabbing said if your paris omnia is getting worse or you just feel like your sleep deprivation is getting worse your sleep disruption is not resolving whether you're postpartum otherwise please go ask your doctor about it sometimes. These pera. Samis like i mentioned can indicate other sleep or psychiatric or neurological disorders. And you'd rather catch out early rather than late and specifically in the postpartum case. We really want to make sure that your sleep deprivation is not getting so out of hand that it's interfering with your mood and interfering with your ability to care for your child and for yourself all right. That's it for my. Psa for pregnant moms and postpartum moms. Thanks so much for listening. Let me know if you've ever experienced a pair samya or any other strange sleep related events that we didn't cover today. Let's continue the conversation on social media. You can find me on facebook and twitter. I'm at cutie. T savvy sake. I'm also at jade woo. Phd we can also keep in touch through the savvy psychologist. Newsletter soviet psychologist is audio engineered by rick. Berg and edited by karen hertzberg as always soviet psychologist is strictly for informational purposes and does not substitute for mental health. Care from a licensed professional. Thanks again for joining me. And i'll see you next week for a happier healthier mind. Checking in is a new advice. Show all about health and wellness hosted by self magazine editor in chief. Caroline kill stra. The show tackles our most personal health and wellness questions. No matter how complicated or embarrassing from vanishing sex drive's to compulsive doom scrolling and from drinking problems too dating with chronic illness. Nothing is off limits. New episodes of checking in from self magazine release every monday subscribed to checking in on apple podcasts. Spotify or wherever you listen.

kenneth parks bloomsbury publishing jane paris sambas dr wu pera sonya paralysis walker remmy tonia springfield Samis massachusetts insomnia paris Paralysis insomnia depression ashley
The Security Spoon - DTNS 3730

Daily Tech News Show

31:23 min | 11 months ago

The Security Spoon - DTNS 3730

"Coming up on why the Messenger. Revamp could mean better code in the future for facebook a smart way to get your local news and security stories from our essay including the man who said his mom to do pen testing at a prison. This is the daily Tech News for Tuesday march. Third Twenty twenty in Los Angeles on Tom. Merritt and from Studio Redwood. I'm Sarah Lane on the show's producer. Roger Chang We're very happy to welcome. Seth Rosenblatt Editor in chief and founder of the Pera lack said the dash payroll x dot com. Welcome back seth. How's it going great great to talk with you all again? We were just talking with seth about Japan and some of the highlights of his time. Living there are visits there. You want to get that expanded show. You got to become a member at Patriotair Dot Com Slash D. N. S. And choose one of the Good Day. Internet tears. Let's start here with a few tech things you should know. Cancellations keep coming. Google announced it will not host and in-person Google I o event on May twelve thousand concern for the Kovic nineteen virus Google's looking into an alternative format for the event however tickets will be refunded on March Thirteenth. If not before facebook and twitter have both pulled out of the South by Southwest Conference in Austin Texas due to concerns although organizers of the event. Say that it is still proceeding as planned in March. In addition facebook is restricting visits to its offices and conducting job interviews primarily by video conference and twitter encouraging. It's forty eight hundred employees to work from home. Put together a whole page of all the Tech Conference cancellations and travel restrictions. If you want to keep track of that Meanwhile Major League Baseball is replacing Amazon web services with Google cloud as its new data and analytics partner. It's a multiyear pact. That now means you'll see this is stat cast powered by Google cloud instead of stat cast powered by aws stack cast of course the service that analyzes player performance in abilities. And they'll be we'll also use Google ad manager and it's dynamic ad insertion feature for the digital ads business for the third year in a row. Foxconn expects revenue to drop fifteen percent in the first quarter shutdowns and travel restrictions related to the nineteen outbreak however the company believes normal production should resume by the end of March Fox Scott operates several factories in China and apple is of course one of its biggest customers sand. It was mostly good news. Google Pixel owners are getting new update features including additional music controls Emoji more photo and video features expanded emergency help features though Google personal safety APP through Google's personal safety APP Google. Play improvements bunch more unless you're on. At and T. Google has pulled the update for. At and T. Pixel four and Pixel for X. L. PHONES. No official word on. Why yet all right? Let's talk a little bit more. About Amazon's plan Sarah Amazon announced that by adding smaller fulfillment centers in certain metro areas. Philadelphia Phoenix Orlando Dallas all. Us cities it can increase same day deliveries in those areas by three million items which is a really big increase because prime now which is the existing. Save Service offers about twenty thousand items for rapid delivery along with groceries so customers will now see new today by tag on items that are eligible. Not all items are quite a few are now. And then there's an overnight delivery option as well so if you ordered something before midnight so you can get it at eight. Am The next morning. For example it's different than one day delivery which they're trying to make standard. We're one day could mean at the end of the day. The next day overnight means you get it earlier right basically you get this first thing in the morning as long as you ordered you at a reasonable hour of the night before which a lot of items where I would I would really prefer that He says this would cut down on fuel use. Because you're ordering from things that are close to you so they don't have to go by plane to get to you except they had to go by plane at some points. I'm not sure how much how much that washes it. They said what do you do you do? You have any feelings about Amazon. Cutting down delivery time given how many packages get stolen How can you tell if they're there before you order it and yet it's not there when you open the door? It doesn't matter whether it was stolen faster now. Ooh That's exciting worth every penny. But Yeah I mean. The the whole idea of these kinds of super huge fulfillment centers which you can't just plop down in the middle of a city. Right you have to. You have to have room for them that the company over time especially because Amazon now has a lot of other competition for all of the goods that you want as quickly as possible for the right price has figured out. You know we don't always need all that stuff in the big old super huge. It's better to figure out. Okay what is a you know? An average customer in Philadelphia. For example ordering enough that the small fulfillment center lettuce stock. It with that. And you know you save on fuel and Amazon is of course pushing its whole reduced carbon footprint initiative as are many other companies. But this is one way that you get there or get closer. A new lightweight version of FACEBOOK MESSENGER for is live rolling out slowly may or may not have it already. The version has shrunk from one hundred thirty megabytes to thirty megabytes and is going from one. Point seven million lines of code down to three hundred sixty thousand. If you remember F- eight last year. They called this project light speed. It was supposed to ship last year but it missed its deadline because it was more complicated than they thought in fact. Vp Of Messenger. Stand should know ski told Fast Company it was like remodeling a house and discovering new problems when you opened up the walls like. Oh there's dry rot crap. We need to rip out these lines of code now. It doesn't look too much different if you get the new version other than the taking up less space launching faster the discover tab is removed. That's one noticeable thing The People Tab gotTa Redesign Inbox read receipts in polls or temporarily gone. They say they're going to come back. But facebook intends to incorporate some of the updates into future android version so the android version of Messenger should get lighter as well what I found most fascinating about. This is not so much that they changed anything in the way. Messenger works It's a little bit impressive that they were able to cut down the code that much but if you read the fast company article it talks a lot about what they found when they focused on this because they had such a huge group of engineers working on this overtime. Allure is a lot of redundant code especially in picking people. They found that there is multiple ways that the code could pick a person and so they were able to just rip all that out and put one object. That said. Here's the people picking code ever. Every call should use that micro services were replaced with S Q light database. Which brought down a lot of the code bases well? I said that feel like this. This is something that they'll be able to learn from other projects and be able to be more efficient encoding in the future. Well one could hope I mean. I think that there's something really really interesting about this. And it's not often that Average consumers gosh encounter technical debt. Right we just know that. Facebook RUN SLOWER. Messenger runs slower or we're having difficulty with an APP. That's just not behaving the way. It should or a website but this kind of technical debt I think is actually a huge huge problem in How Systems and services get developed and the fact that messengers only been around for a white maybe not even ten years as a standalone APP. Five Years Years Twelve so eight years. It's been in development and then they created it as a as they integrated it and then they ripped it out and and and so it's been what less than five years or maybe around five years as its own thing and they were able to shave three quarters of the code off I think that's remarkable and I think we're going to see huge problems in services that people are using that are far more dependent on on their code bases and have far bigger code. Bases Than Messenger. Wins win the technical debt in those comes calling I I think it's really neat. And I think we're going to be in some deep trouble because of one last point on this I think I was most entertained by what should not ski was saying about or not entertained but most interested in Tanabe saying that they really learned better practices to prevent the code from getting so bloated in the future. And I'm curious to see if that plays out if they're able to happen. I'm GonNa need those Inbox read receipts back though. It's very important very important. Passive aggressive friendships analysts. Minke quos and a note to investors saying that his sources indicate that apple has six products coming this year and next year. That will use mini. Led's those products include twelve point nine inch ipad pro a twenty seven inch Matt. I'M ACAPULCO A fourteen point one inch macbook pro a sixteen inch macbook pro at ten point two inch IPADS and seven point nine inch. I've had many many smaller. So they can use more back. Lights controlled local demand better and deliver improved CONTRAST BRIGHTNESS AND BLACK LEVELS. Yeah fourteen point one inch macbook pro. I mean that in itself is is an interesting quo prediction here that good a smaller version of the macbook pro similar to the sixteen where it's going to take up the same size but have a larger screen and just you know better. Look at screens put mini. Led's in there. I I'm not sure how much this matters to. The average person but a lot of people are are screen nerds. Want the best looking screen. They can get and this could help with that. What do we think about pricing for something like this? Let's say all of these products come to add to the price because that's you know that's the consumer is probably well. Maybe it's a little bit like retina display. Where if you don't have it you're like is it really that great and then once you have it you're like yes it is. I'll never go back. So maybe it's one of these things but yes does. Does the price of this better technology ended up being a higher price for a product? It's an apple. Will you notice seth? What do you think I'm I? I hate to be such a Debbie Downer except I hate it but I'm curious to see how many how many of these are even going to ship because of the impact of Corona And Covert Nineteen. I think there's there's just there's so many unknowns that are happening this year because of it even if they've got them designed and ready to be built in the factories maybe the factories aren't going to be able to handle building them Price points could be wildly changed because apple may either WANNA move product or they may not be able to ship enough product And that could affect what they're charging for it. I mean I I have no idea. I wouldn't be surprised in a normal year if they wind if they would wind up charging an extra hundred bucks for for the latest I think historically have sort of what we've seen from them By in terms of like what's the impact this year. I I think it's a lot of who knows. Now I mean quo said that given current situations supply chain. These shouldn't be affected. But you're right. Yeah that's current situation. We don't know what the situation is. GonNa turn into local. Us News APPs. Smart News announced it and has now reached partnerships with publishers and more than six thousand cities. Smart News has a tab for local news based on location sharing from the APPs user articles are picked by machine learning but only from sources curated by a team of journalists. Smart News claims wants to break users out of media bubbles by doing this. The Election News Tab for instance has a slider that lets you choose to see news for each presidential candidate from a left right or centre perspective. You can kind of experiment how that changes what you would see members of the smart news. Engineering Product Data and marketing teams have also gone on listening tours where they go to Minnesota Iowa Nevada and California so far to just hear local concerns. Like what what don't you get from your news. What would you like to get from your news? They're planning to do that for Michigan. Florida particularly for election coverage not just local. These are these are important electoral states. You may recognize there but this is. This is an interesting APP because it kind of to me strikes a difference a middle way between Google news and apples news. So apple's news APP to me is very magazine heavy. It doesn't really have all the sources I want in it because apple hasn't been able to strike the partnerships whereas Google news has everybody in it which means that it's often polluted by a lot of things that are unreliable or click beatty You just don't care about it. Just don't care and smart news. I've tried it for a little bit now. Seems to have a really good handle on. These are good reliable sources that you can trust but our machine learning is good at showing you important things showing you things that you might be interested in reading about today. The Look Angle I think. Oh go ahead. Seth is sorry. I again like these. These machine learning a generated a curated stories. Really really worry me especially with with local news. There were two big reports in the New York Times in the Atlantic at the end of last year focusing on how Disinformation campaigns are pivoting to use local news sites Given how machine learning algorithms algorithms tend to be black boxes that we don't have a lot of independent in insight into we don't have a lot of independent sources looking at how they're constructed I think it's GonNa be really easy to manipulate these. I'm nervous about that. Smart News doesn't just rely on the machine. Learning they have a human team monitoring it and I think that's super smart to say we know. This is a black box and can be manipulated. So we're going to have humans looking at it on on the lookout and I have to say so far. It's better than what you see from Google News. I I hope so. I hope that continues I just I know you know we all know that. That facebook. Had you know people our has theoretically people sitting in on its Algorithm helping curate things? Google is supposed to be doing that as well with Google news youtube videos. I just I'm I'm Very cautious about how we are moving forward and there's not a lot of independent authority saying yes this is. This is being Authentically chosen or being manipulated And it's those manipulations that that worry me because what we saw on facebook is that once somebody gets used to seeing news from a particular source then even if it looks completely legitimate. It can be exploited to help spread misinformation and disinformation And if it's a sight that they're using to replaced local news that they used to have You know but but some big conglomerate pot the TV station or the newspaper and and gutted it I think this is You know a assuming we should be very trepidation about the one thing to remember. When you're thinking about this and sets bringing up some very good things to think about is what facebook and Google news do is let the machine learning spew out the stuff and then the humans are on the other end looking for problems. What I like about Smart News? May Or may not work is that they have the humans at the beginning and they are feeding what they think is good information into machine learning and if we've learned anything about M. L. It's that it's only as good as the data you put into it. Facebook and Google are letting anyone put anything into it. Smart News saying we'll feed. It is a good diet so that it hopefully puts out but her stuff. We'll see. Yeah but it's an interesting thing to keep an eye on him and service. Beaucoup has noted that thirty percent rising payments over the last two months due in part to the effects of you guessed it the nineteen virus in South Korea Hong Kong Thailand Taiwan the Philippines the United Arab Emirates Kuwait and Oman Boca's an online payment system tied to mobile number accepted on many entertainment websites like spotify playstation gambling websites. Use it as well and Google announced. It will make advanced hangouts meat video conferencing capabilities available to sweet and G. Suite for education customers until July. First of this year the features include larger meetings and live streaming and the ability to record and save medians for later. Viewing this is interesting because we were almost saying. I wonder what the rise in remote conferencing software is going to look like. They're probably will be some. But we're already seeing the effects of of of how this works it's good pr stunt for Google but it also benefits companies. That are like we're going to have to make people work from home but we didn't pay for the capacity to have meetings with more than two hundred and fifty people or more than a thousand people live streaming at a at a time and Google is making that easier for them for a period of time with the idea that maybe once the virus scare has passed. You know fingers crossed it. It doesn't continue I. Maybe they can get some of these companies to stay on with the paid plan. The bo-keun Note is interesting. Because we've seen a lot of companies impacted negatively by this But there are also companies that provide a service. You know if somebody in China particularly right or in Korea now. Italy has to stay inside. They're going to look for things to entertain themselves and Boko happens to be benefiting from that as a payment service. Hey folks if you want to get all the headlines. Each day in about five minutes be sure to subscribe to daily tech headlines Dot Com. Well we heard at the beginning of the show of the cancellations of conferences that are happening with the conference. Went on as planned even with a few companies pulling out of it. And Seth you were there yes off. How was the mood there? What was it like being at this conference in the middle of of this kind of concern? Sure I mean I think it was really interesting just as someone who has been going long enough that they hand me a legacy pin every time I go now and I I feel very awkward about that because it's in Think decade or so of of attending these things maybe more And in in the new Mosconi Center you know they. They revamped it. There's now a third floor on the on the south building and and there's connection bridges and everything And so the conference which had begun to spread out to nearby hotels and and conference areas in those hotels now sort of re condensed back into Mosconi. And so I was expecting it to be very crowded and very tight And that just wasn't the case walking the halls Was quite easy The show floor which I really try to avoid like the plague Was Sorry was also fairly easy to maneuver around on And I thought that was Different And I asked the conference if they could tell me how many attendees they had this year. Compared to previous years they have not yet shared that information with me They had more than a few sponsors pull. They had fourteen. I think it was at the last count sponsors. Pull out I think six were from China and the rest were Western Western companies So there was definitely a A different tone on the show floor people were Very cautious about using A hand sanitizer. There's a lot of washing of hands. A little bit of gnashing of as well but there was still some good stories and and one that. I've seen a lot of people talking about the today is The Penetration Tester. Who's Ma his was the CFO at his company and he sent her in to do pen testing at a prison. This is an amazing story. Yeah a lot of fun So so for people who don't who don't know or don't understand why they do. This penetration. Testers are often hired By Organizations can be small companies can be municipalities to test their networks And a lot of that also means going into a physical space and dropping USB keys into every open. Usb Port you can find See what kind of data you can exfiltrated from that And this is usually on the up and up. Recently there was a problem with I think it was an Iowa. A courthouse Where the communication was not great and the pen testers were actually arrested for doing what they had been hired to do I think the case was finally thrown out but this is a very common thing in a cybersecurity especially in this space where cybersecurity and physical security intersect Can you make a fake badge? Can Use social engineer your way into a building Or are they more cautious about it? financial services companies actually tend to be very good about this. They're very worried about you know People breaking into a building especially you know Wall Street Style companies Silicon Valley because Teens tend to be More disparate you've got people working remotely from home from a lot of different satellite offices Tend to be more lax about these things and so There was actually a talk about this at besides which is a RSA Sort of side conference Not officially related to say and So this guy sent his mom in and she was able to To put USB keys on every open computer that she could find She Got In with a fake badge and fake business card Pointing to her son as her manager Which I'm sure Tickled them to no end And he was able to talk about it now. I I think because. Nda had finally cleared on that they didn't mention the actual prison still and has passed away since then. Yes as well sadly but yeah anybody who knows. Daron kitchen and hack five they were using rubber. Duckie's binding right right so it was like Angela from Mister robot like they said Stick River Duckie's in into as many things as possible. It was pretty crazy Also we mentioned the Crook Vulnerability earlier this week on the show. But if you could real quick set. Is there anything that people need to realize this is a vulnerability in a couple of different chipsets? Right to chipsets defected broadcom in Cyprus and The in Cyprus used to be part of broadcom There the Iot Division that got spun out and I think acquired by Cyprus in in twenty sixteen I think it was and you know. I it sounds pretty scary There were there were more than a billion devices affected including Basically everything that Mac May. That apple makes Most of what Amazon makes And as well as Alway routers ACIS routers. A bunch of others The routers I think people should still be very concerned about the Consumer devices that you've got in your hand less so because those have automatic updates or at least they should if you've disabled automatic updates I hope you have a very good reason for that. Please go do your updates Patching is is a complicated business In part of it is because sit devices like routers still to this day. Don't have automatic updates the way that your phone does or the way that your laptop does You know and it used to be a big deal. I remember when browser started having automatic updates. That was google chrome thing And it was a debate. And and it's amazing. How important it but it became. Shutting Down Vulnerabilities But these other devices that don't have auto updates patch you know patch early. Patch often There's IT's one of the core tenants of keeping yourself safe. Finally you wanted to to note a keynote from Wendy Neither From what is she from? Cisco is that right yes. She's a go on she from what I'm reading here was talking about changing up how you don't want to say market but how you how you get people to pay attention to security one of the things that caught my eye was was saying we really need to make user designed better for security so that people want to use it so it's easy to use and I wanna I wanna find her quote here about the spoon. She says what if they design security to be easy as a spoon. We don't need annual spoon awareness training. Well I've I've seen some people leave and I have to say some people wearing a straining and perhaps bibs but but I I you know wh when he was talking about I think is really important. Because it's something that came up at the conference in San Francisco at the end of January with a talk from Leah Kisner Where security products are designed to fail And the fact that we have we continually have to this day. The same problems that we've had in cybersecurity going back more than two or three decades And the disbelief. That it's part of it is because the products are not being designed to be usable. There are being designed for security And that's and Wendy had a great turn afraid. She said that we need to think of security as a service And who are we not not just a service that gets pushed out to consumers but a service that is providing an important need. But something that you don't really WanNa be thinking about right. We don't think about software as a service it just is there and I think the same thing with security as a really important point I hope it's the start of a change in philosophy as to how security experts are approaching the products that they designed Because there's so much failure in telling people you know don't Click on this link in your email and people in this was sort of a shock to me but people have been fired for that It's you know it's really kind of horrific. What's being expected of the average Employees of a company especially now that software is in everything so it you know focusing on this. I think is is going to be huge. It felt like she was saying. Let's stop telling people they should be better at security and make it really hard for them not to be good at security right. Yep Yep yeah well. Thank you appreciate the The updates and and braving conference at this time in our history so far. I seem to be okay. My my dog is happy. The girlfriends seats to not be angry at me for going so there are worse things. Thanks everybody WHO PARTICIPATES IN OUR SUB BRETT? Lots of security stories there every day among others you can submit a story that you care about and vote on others at daily Tech New Show. Dot READY DOT com. You can also join in the conversation in our discord and you can join discord by linke to a patron account at patriotair dot com slash t ennis mailbag Sarah Otani. I'm glad you asked a James wrote in and said the loss of support for Google reader may not be comparable for the prospects of stadia is a conversation we were having yesterday. But James says the drop of support for daydream VR. I think is. I was one of the people who bought into daydream and Google has dropped support. They're no longer involved in developing APPS. They've cut support for the device in their most recent phones and they're letting the platform die. I thought daydream worked really. Well would have done much better if it had been supported by Google better. If Stadium doesn't perform as quickly as expected how long we'll Google's attention span linger before they cut and run like they did with daydream. James that is an excellent comparison especially in the developer. There's there's a little difference in that. Daydream was never marketed. As as much as stadium to the end user but a lot of interesting parallels there. So thank you for that. Also shout out to Scott operations engineer with the Canadian city. Who wanted to thank us for talking about the dangers of improper lithium ion battery disposal. He basically says he primarily deals with landfill operations and the frequency of landfill fires. Being caused by batteries has to be increasing just from his personal experience. He said our last fire. I had the luck of actually being the first person to spot and respond to and the mangled remains make it hard to determine what it was but the number of cells makes me think it was something like a lawn more battery. Pack the ability for these batteries to put out. An extreme amount of heat is impressive especially because it's chemical energy landfill. Operators develop a quick for these things. One of our incidents a few years ago was a Molefi. Pack that was spotted smoking and removed before anything else caught fire. It was able to be spotted among all the waste with really no sign of smoke from the cab of a landfill compactor. While in most industries of fire is a rare emergency event in the waste industry. I now consider a fire an event that is to be expected. Not a potential event So yeah be careful. Don't do those batteries into the trash or there's likely either one literally a dumpster fire. Yeah yes lead early. Hey Sharon to patrons at our master and grandmaster levels including Jeffries oops Michael Capper and Paul Reese also thanks to Seth Rosenblatt for being with us on details today. Such a pleasure set. Thank you so much for bringing bringing the knowledge and letting US know how ours they was also let folks know how they can keep up with the rest of your work. Yeah I'm on twitter at Seth are The Pera lacks publishes on twitter at the Paralympics not hyphen and our website is the hyphen para lacks dot com. We have a weekly newsletter as well Because you don't need yet another website to go to all the time but we appreciate it when you do. Yeah thanks for being here. Man and Thanks to everybody who makes it possible. I do these shows. It is your direct support that provides the vast majority of our budget. So if you want to continue to make this content possible empower other content. We do product reviews with live with it. We do editor's desk for more opinion oriented content. That's all available to patrons as a bonus as thank you at Patriotair Dot com slash. Dt Ns our email addresses feedback at daily Tech News. Show DOT com. We are live Monday through Friday at four thirty. Pm Eastern Twenty one thirty UPC and you can find out more daily technique show dot com slash. Live back tomorrow. God Dr then. This show is part of fraud fans network get more at frog pants. Dot Com club always enjoyed this broader.

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Ready Layer One: Who Competes With Ethereum? - Ep.174

Unchained

1:03:58 hr | 8 months ago

Ready Layer One: Who Competes With Ethereum? - Ep.174

"Hi everyone welcome unchained source for all things crypto. I'm your host Laura before we begin a couple notes. I I'm doing another survey to find out what you want to podcasts. And how I can make them better. Last year we heard you loud and clear on the news front and so have begun including a weekly news recap at the end of every unconfirmed this year. What would you like to see from unchanged? Please take a moment to fill out a survey so let us know what you like. The show link is in the show notes or you can just to survey monkey dot com slash are slash unchained. Twenty twenty again that survey monkey dot com slash are slash unchanged twenty twenty and guess. What CRYPTO DOT COM has offered our survey respondents a chance to win a medal? Mto Visa Card and CRYPTO DOT COM. We'll stick these cars definitely. Ten lucky winners will enjoy card benefits including free spotify FREENET FLEX and three percent back on all spending and they'll earn extra interest on their deposit and more things crypto dot com again. Take the survey now survey monkey dot com slash rs slash unchanged to twenty that survey monkey dot com slash RS SLASH UNCHANGED. Twenty twenty one. Other thing unchained is hiring. I'm looking for a remote editorial assistant to start working later this summer. As one of my stuff is leaving to go to Grad School. This role handles numerous editorials house from booking guests to proof reading to social media and deals with everything from the show itself to the show notes of the newsletter. If you love Crypto and have journalism experience get in touch. I have a link to the job. Posting in the show notes and the listing is also available on my website. There in explains what you should send in. And how today's episode is a panel from the ready layer one conference with Elliot Police Supervision of near Protocol Sake Mani and of Cosmos Robert Hamper Meyer Polkadot and Arthur Brightman of tastes. We discuss how these layer one chains plan to take on theorem not just with features but in terms of attracting developers and users. Plus we get into a big discussion over whether or not bitcoin and a theory of our direct competitors. It was a lively fun discussion and I definitely noticed that the viewers thought so too from looking at their comments enjoying the seller network connects your business to the global financial infrastructure whether you're looking to power payment application or issue digital assets like stable coins or digital dollars seller easy to learn and fast implement. Start Your journey today at unchanged Dot Stellar Dot. Org cracking is the best exchange in the world for buying and selling digital assets. It has the tightest security deep liquidity and degrade fee structure with no minimum or hidden fees. Whether you're looking for a simple Fiat were futures. Trading cracking is the place for you in response to the Challenging Times CRYPTO DOT COM is waving the three point five percent credit card fee for all crypto purchases for the next three months. Download the CRYPTO DOT com today. Welcome everyone so our panel where we've got a number of founders of layer one protocols which I believe a year ago maybe we were calling them. Theorem killers no. That's the term nowadays Anyway why don't we just Each have have each of you. Just go around and say What it is that you're working on and where you're Sheltering in place from high and Zaki sheltering in place in Palo Alto Organic Cosmos just broken on watching ABC. Right Hi my name's Rob I work on polka-dot which is a heterogeneous charting platform. I'm hunkering down in the DMV in the DC area heroin. Amelia co-founder at near working on which we just released may net and like stage one and then kind of greater decentralize with over this months and beyond actually in Shanghai in China. Hi My name. Is Arthur Braverman founder of potatoes? Chance midnight four Almost almost two years now sheltering in place in Singapore Great. Well thank you all for joining so I actually wanted then all of us to also just give everybody kind of an overview of what it like why we brought you all together. So why don't you each now? Just say what it is that your protocol does and kind of where in the stage of development you're at I can go first so cosmos of COSMA soffer stack for building your own blockchain and so the cosmos hub in a number of other blockchain's finance decks chain Irish net Kaba Terrib- all been wide on the software stack on for about a year. But sort of the two pieces of this sort of Supervision of Cosmos. One piece was idea of you know. Build your own blockchain Any any everyone can have their own sort of customized community driven wear one And then the second piece was interrupting those changes so in the years since we launched Since a bunch of these networks are to launch We've been working on this interoperability framework called ABC. And Right. Now we're in the midst of game of zones which is the sort of Incentivize test net sort of inspired by game of stakes which was sort of the original incentivize test not that Were sort of putting. Ibc through its paces expecting to watch ABC on the cosmas of later this summer. Yes so I I view that. There's there's a design space of blockchain scale ability. So what does is it. It occupies a space Appointing this design space in between something like homogeneous Chardonnay where you have a bunch of different charts all execute the same kind of smart contracts and things and in between something like Cosmos where we have a bunch of different blockchain's that all talk to each other each of those blockchain's has to be fully sovereign. So there are trade-offs to both sides of that design space so we try to occupy a middle ground where those charges are heterogeneous. We have a bunch of different shards. Split up the work between a bunch of different blockchain's the draw security from the same source but those blockchain's are specialized to specific cats. They don't have to bring their own balances. They don't have to bring their own valid or sets things like that. So as any engineer knows the closer can specialized to a specific task. The better your solution is going to be more general solutions or less efficient So that's our notion of Pera Chain. So we also embodied this notion of build your on blockchain bring your on blockchain we built a toolkit called substrate which is for building your own blockchain's writing the what we call it. The runtime the logic of your blockchain and Web Assembly Rust Code and everything else is sort of taken care of. We eat our own dog food in the sense that we've written polkadot using substrate as well so we've launched the KUSABA network which is it's essentially polkadot but it isn't polka-dot so it's a incentivized real value bearing network for sort of putting through our our thesis through through the through the hoops and we're working on deploying. The initial implementations of Pera chains Over the next few months Elia you also have some news. Yeah so as rob mentioned there's kind of a spectrum so we're on the side of the spectrum from Cosmos where we see the world as kind of developers might one specialized solutions but in very rare cases and instead they kind of want speed and ability to go the market if they actually visit building a business faster hands like we actually we think of near as developed platform really targeting kind of people building applications and not needing to think how infrastructure needs works right kind of same motor like aws been able to build a huge business around at the same time to actually be able to serve this developers. You do need to scale platform. You do. Need to solve a lot of of technical challenges. So that's what of interest structures that we building near protocol is is a charter protocol. It'd transplant assembly kind of provides tooling around it and yet like yesterday as mentioned as opening talks We just kind of opened up our main net. It is a thirty right now but the goal like to point is it allows people to start building applications and actually getting initial users and then route like May and June. We're going to be decentralizing. Bringing more val daters on board and over time kind of releasing it to the community I think if you think of is our networks and platforms nearly as technology. You're you're missing the forest for the trees What these things are primarily is they are communities they are the closest thing to them our policies they are essentially political organization and the backbone of SAS usually is a blockchain. It's a good way to do it. Just one way and we're trying to do with stays does is ensure at this you. Can you can preserve that community. You can present that network while being somewhat agnostic to technology and the way you can do that is by having to college can evolve. So if you're looking purely assault obviously software development or very important. You cannot go anywhere. If you don't have engineering good software. They would say that it's you know it's not the end. It's not the end goal. This are not operating systems. They are fundamentally political at. These pills does essentially trying to really tackle on that directly by introducing a means of control by by community of of the platform in how devolves and so has been You Know I. It's been a sniff for many years. Now it was an immediate for almost two years already been US three street protocol upgrades their proposals for the force. One coming and so you called define it as piece of technology itself because it technology can change and so anything. We can discuss in terms of shortening in terms of like into per ability. All of these fundamentals are technologies. But they're not they're not communities and I think that's focused specifically of those. Yeah well let's talk a little bit more about that because you know I kind of made that joke at the beginning about the theorem killers. Which is sort of like this. Just catch all phrase. That was used for a lot of protocols that are working in the same area that all of you are but I'm sure even just like listening to each of you describe what you're working on. Obviously there's a lot more nuance and yet at the same time. We are in this reality. Where kind of like the most used blockchain in this is a theory. I'm so curious to know how you differentiate yourself from a theory him. You know what problems you believe still need to be solved in the space and what you guys are working on an anybody concert we. I know we've been going in this little clock white circle but it can go in any direction. I'm happy to start to you. Know I was I was what does he was reading. It but near which was comedian point and I don't know how How relevant it is today but there was a statement saying look. We've been working on charting and like having super high school ability and then we realized. Hey there's no point in building it's like building the giant building in a desert and so I would say by and large. It might seem if you're really looking very closely at this is like. Oh everyone's using a theory but I was saying no one is using his area Like an unavoidable. So you have certifications. Most of them were going to be around Around lending and and there's not an. There's not that much and so you might be tempted to sing. Like oh well you know they have not been adopted but I take the view. It's not a very very popular in the bitcoin circle. I think that if you if you if you have too much of a platform and technology mindset you might miss that but an executive mainly merry holding a token is using it. If you're thinking in terms of censorship resistant season resistance store a values which are until you what what things are you can try to think of them as guests as much as you want is not the reality that we are today not in not in not in theory of bitcoin network. I think one thing I would do when I mentioned. I don't think he is five even close to like most use blockchain and like I would want to have some data but I think it goes get and then a bunch of father protocols crib like us get used by millions of dollars so get does actually using maintains a data structure which is pretty much blockchain. Eight has cashing head. Yeah so and so in general like and then if we go cryptocurrencies ride. We have bitcoin in in the smart car. Like in this space. Where you guys are playing. That's what I meant like. Obviously bitcoin is but anyway so keep going well. I think it's important to remember how far we are from like stuff. That's I think like like I think. Electric actually has a very good report. Which is actually track down. Also like developers buildings the space and it's like like laughable number ten thousand actual active developers in like whole like smart contracts space right. I just wanted to say I didn't interview with Maria who wrote that report from Russia capital so but anyway keep going. Yeah I'm just saying like ten thousand developers was first few weeks of Google reasons framework. That's kind of the kind of the difference of magnets so I think definitely understanding. How can we bring more developers and like and actually users because definitely agrees like if we have like to developers to come here? We need people to use the stuff they need to have value and you deceive value wiser use so Elliott. Can I just ask you a little bit more about your approach was near because obviously you announce your new funding yesterday? Congratulations in that's the news. I was referring to it. Was Twenty one million and you also want your of with thirty may net and just. I think you would agree with me. Like proof of authority. Seems really appropriate for enterprise blockchain. Where you kind of develop eaters are known. There's a very limited number of them. And so I just wondered like is this your way of kind of targeting a different audience from the audience that like a more public blockchain Leica theory and MS targeting. No I'm into blandness to start on boarding. More and more vow daters pretty much like a month so we have. We actually have forty Valdez running right now on one of our tests across the world which actually is more decentralized at some other public chains right now but yeah so the idea of is really just give developers a platform to start deploying while we're still testing everything and kind of in a way pipeline the validating that you know decentralisation everything works by the networking issues all the things and like Zach can tell how really hard it's this problems are how long it takes to like Dubai goals as the same time already started providing a platform for developers to build applications. We have few developers kind of already have an application and actually serving users right now from that and really wanted to give them platforms that actually like will maintain state going forward all right well so to continue what. I was asking about before just about whether or not you guys are thinking about. How you're thinking about a theorem kind of as you're working your protocols in figuring out which audiences you're targeting or which problems you want to solve or things like that and I guess like in a way Robert Sake you guys. You're really working in slightly different way. Where your just trying to kind of bring a bunch of different types of you know whether it's different blockchain's or I guess for Robert with with shards like you know. How are you thinking about what you're doing knowing that at the moment at least in this particular space is leading well as the others have said like they're leading a developer community which is small relative to the amount of momentum that we want the space to gather in the future and I would like to clarify that? The Concept of Heterogeneous charting is very very fundamentally different from homogeneous chardon because you're bringing in a capability optimization at specialization that you cannot have with homogeneous charting But I mean without a representative of theory. I'm here I don't feel comfortable speaking a lot about a theory so like maybe I'll speak a little bit. More general like how I look at developer ecosystem and developer growth. I mean this is one of the reasons that we've historically and we continue to lead the charge into technology such as like bringing rust into the blockchain space and bringing web assembly into the blockchain space That these especially with web assembly when you have the ability for developers to target web assembly. You're talking about a system of technologies will. We don't have to reinvent the wheel and you've got the strength of the million strong developer community huge source bodies behind it all the browser vendors behind it for formal verification good developer tools for people to write blockchain software languages that they're familiar with. I think is key right that you don't have to learn an entirely new language and rather you can maintain your comfort when moving into the new blockchain space As a as a as a software developer who has previously been exposed to those things so I guess the way I mostly think about the blockchain space in what we're trying to do with cosmos. Is I guess the question. So where theory has been successful is it is been incredibly successful. Sandbox for building sort of early financial primitives and on boarding assets and You know engage in having some sort of baseline of economic activity on those assets The question is really. Is these sort of the theory. Maximal strategy is is the way I think about it is is. It's a point of view. That's basically like well. We can take these successful. Experiments organically grow this ecosystem sort of glue on scale ability solutions as as they're needed and essentially Sort of organically evolve into a sort of global Sort of a a a global financial sort of ecosystem. I guess the the the Cosmos point of view is is that we're sort of missing some primitives there And primitive that. We're missing is basically the sovereign interoperability primitive And sort of not having that primitive means that like you can that these sort of nascent experiments will never be able to grow into sort of large scale platforms. And you know. We've had some early signs that there's like general enthusiasm for this There isn't we don't really sell the Cosmos Platform really that hard. But we've seen a sort of a number of other entities sort of either adopt the platform wholesale or basically adopt the the philosophy and concepts of this of the platform in in what they've built And that sort of seems like the indication that we're sort of moving in the right direction. By introducing new primitive into the blockchain space Which is to a certain extent that that that's sort of like our governing philosophy. I recognize you guys have been saying it's super early. And the number of developers are working in the blockchain spaces is still very small globally. And yet at the same time you know. I think we could say about a theory that at least they do have sort of a network effect in some of you did allude to this Right now obviously defy on ethereal them. I would say you know has a certain network effect at the moment. There's about four hundred million dollars worth of east locks in defy on a theorem so just like in terms of attracting developers. You know if if this theory that has been talked about for quite a while in the blockchain says is true that crypto currencies and block. She networks really are about building network effects. Then how do you plan to attract developers to your ecosystems? There's actually an interesting point that like public blockchain's in comparison to something like libra is actually allowed to link to ask blockchain's right and that's what working was ABC. But there's like various ways to connect which means network effects actually like and bringing people into psychosis kind of benefits. Everyone obviously it. We need tooling. And we need like kind better connectivity. And that's for example. We work in on the bridge which is somewhat similar designed to see links to him and like allows you to locations. They're just US kind of existing liquidity existing Lego pieces from its studio them on other platforms and I know like boycott is doing the same. So in general I think like there is talk facts and there's people who are kind of professionally like building solidity contracts now and are excited about the space. But I don't think like at this point there is like received the cd-rom way of specifically building on this on this specific technology. Right is is winning and I gave his are secure. It's more about like like there's a community of people or buildings financial excited about the new way of building fintech companies and they will be looking for kind of what is the best technologies as they can pull together to build a bad experience for users right and I mean even so what happened. On March twelve spread the kind of spike in gas prices spike in use it pretty much rendered lot of obligations and usable or like the developers end up paying huge amounts and fees. Right because the stadium just couldn't like scale to his kind of very extreme capacity so like there's definitely need for kind of different solutions. I think like even this existing Horta people horrid here. We'll be like extending and I think like jobs apart is to just bring more people who are excited about Fintech and see that kind of this approaches and this technology actually go allows them to get faster the market an Arthur actually. Does that apply to you that you can kind of Inter operate with theory? Monson we to take advantage of the developer activity. They have their. I see how it applies to some of the other blockchain's when it wasn't sure about Jesus I mean you know doesn't have any way of This is what it is so it's easier It's not and the only means that they have to I I said to you to make an attractive to people is going on with gas and explaining why disagree a great boxing. So you know that's pretty much what I can do but I do think it's very attractive. I think the the the spirits and the idea of it is that you can have a chain which is in some sense autonomous it has a internally mechanisms that can make its current over and over and over and the idea of knowing that she can be on the platform knows is going to keep current in such it's going to be displaced by something else. Which is going to be faster over. Scalable it's always always know the the idea of having the means a technology speaking to always be the forefront or close to the forefront is I think pretty comping but in general I think that if the best thing is to have delivered tools that south. That's what it's good bad bedroom. You want to have easy to use. could developer tools. And that's That that's also you know if if you're not you're not an incumbent and much of the which has an effect of of Atheism. I don't think comes from the fact that they have existing. It's not so much as the Fields I think mostly come from the fact that they're incumbent and we're in a space where which is mostly weird. Take all and so you. Comments have a huge advantage so bandage over theorem because they are direct competitors Serum has advantage of is for just because it was there earlier and he's been there for longer and it has nothing to do with. I think the network effect of developers built. It's more of a mind share of network effects. Edyta I'm referring to and I think the ways that you can The way that you can deal with that is by being very focused and by having really good understanding of what it is that you do what it is. It's you're building And that that you lets you avoid a lot of dead ends if you understand know if you really understand your product and I think very few people in this space understand what it is there. What is your building like? They know how to build it the building. Yeah I mean I think I just translating that as yours you know sorta saying that basically everybody should have a vision and and you know kind of keep that in mind while they're building but I was curious to know like you know with pesos. What are people voting on? You know I kind of took a look at it. It looks like it's all stuff's kind of really focused on the protocol and you know it doesn't seem like there's anything controversial happening but I didn't know like aside from that like what else are people doing with with us. So what's actually some controversial? In an upgrade there were some discussions over over the upgrade so that I think that's That's really important and you also have to say the because you know because there is mechanism. It's you don't you should sing the voting against not the decision procedure but as education procedure. In some sense you have some have. Some governance said essentially happened of train. But then you present and you ratify and amazing you know and and basically it avoids a lot of the now you might have. As wise people might push for commercial ladies to upgrade so hard forks. Because they know that you're not GonNa get votes and so you don't necessarily observe it but it has an effect an important effect on on a network. You know I think they're using it as cryptocurrency and fundamentally. I think you're building that form and you're not seeing and you can build a bedroom for operation and not building cryptocurrency understanding what you're building if you're not if you don't think that this is direct competitor. If I say I don't understand it Syria if you don't think that I think they all all Derek competitors and fact that you can build up negation. It's great if she can have applications. You know because cryptocurrencies. Are you know they`re? They're interesting as they store. You know it's the Kozak scum and try and take everyone's money and chasing me one from for Michelle that you can keep your cryptocurrency and that's and that's great that's number one number two. You'RE GONNA make a lot of payment machines all over the Internet. It's completely invisible to us or the substance of network that exist there you want to propensity great if you want to pay if you want to be contract. That's great which is still haven't smart contracting smarter perform form. Let's you use a Away but you're still believe cryptocurrency fundamentally and she don't if you're not seeking evidence currency send you product in response to the challenging times crippled dot com is introducing three measures to help the community. I the three point. Five percent credit card fee for all crypto purchases will be waived for the next three months. 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Language support you quickly integrate stellar to your existing products and services learn more about stellar and start building today at unchained dot stellar dot org. I was so curious sake. Rubber Iliad do you not bitcoin in at the Rim our competitors? Because I don't see it that way at all. Well what I think about is so we have platform technologies each of us have like different platforms technologies but it is somewhat like the the search. Comparative Advantage for token is also Is also sort of somewhat like is like a it's like a different like technological social and technological progression to the white platform evolution my dear coupled because the the token exists within the platform technology. But you have the search for comparative advantage and comparative advantages not zero sum but like there is a relatively narrow space in which to search for that comparative advantage. Right now And that that does sort of render all of our tokens that like into in something of competitive space. Well it's it's competitive but it's not zero sum at least at the moment because there's a lot of room for growth so Like I think that's very important distinction to make. Is that? What one protocol gains is not necessarily the loss of another protocol? I mean once you've saturated the market yes. I think that this would be the case. But at this point We're looking for differentiator that will just exposes to broader and broader markets and bring more people into the space. I think could framework. Is the the Tokens? And and especially like monetary policy is in some way central bank of this like country of you know people in users and developers and everyone was using this system right and like in some way of this -ly every country wants to take over the world but at the same time you know like we actually have countries coexisting to some extent and and the central banks have very different properties around like. What is their economics based on right like look it sounds like Russia for example. A lot of its economy's based on oil versus I gotTa talk about. Us In general rides at the way they economics of the central banks operates can be very different and while at the same time it is money and you know it is like it is what people used for day to day operations so I think it's important to remember that yes. In in like underlying way kind of Flynn agreed is Robin Saturated Market. It will become somewhat more of a competition but at the same time like economic shouldn't be based on very different kind of components and Tila that it provides. I do WANNA mentioned though that like on the government side just to put one thought actually. Don't believe there's a though. Contentious heart forks in proof of stake systems at all because in proof of stake like improve work. The decision of switching to a new protocol is like on minors but everybody else needs to accept the trade like everybody else needs to also chains of binary like because miners can shift and keep and start mining different chain. But if I'm running my no I can start mining the old chain right so it be like natural forks and like mining power. Bruce stake especially BEF. See where we prefer liveliness. You kind of need sixty percent to switch or you need both to be like contentious. Hartford cannot keep the chain that like no changes chain anymore. Because like you don't have a like like super majority to produce blocks in the first place even if like more than thirty percent left so it's actually like and the kind of some bad part about this is actually if there is something like this happens. In both chains modifies our state to produce new folks than the choice is actually not at people's hands but it exchanges hands because the people who decide which one to value in which one has steak is like quiver whoever values it and whoever puts the president which right now are exchanges and centralized exchanges for the most part. So there's a lot of there's a lot of like mechanics as we need to be aware of here. I don't think that minors decided on forty nine proof of work because miners miners have expended. Christine order to To Mine and so they're gonNA Follow Marcus. And market's GonNa follow basically social tenses. So it's a circle where everyone is trying to pick amid really hard to one branch of the fork but it's hard to talk to make credible commitments where there's so much on the nine. It's kind of Jain game of chicken between users. Maybe engines miners. And you get an outcome. Which basically you up with groups having like massive massive leverage just because it's just so anti gold and you have this crazy game of chicken and I have having ognjen governance. Is that you by saying. I also think that even if you have if you have the TI- The technical tea for for doing it. Consensus. You're still you can still have contentious hard because you'll have leaders who decided to go on both ranch and as you know. They can't be slashed Easy to to modify studies at Golden One wrench nature. Not going to be slashed from one to the other and so they'll just a signposts. I think it depends mentality of evaluators if you have convinced that yes. It's important to maintain the network. It's fine but if they the thoughts of Oh just building technology that that your certifications than in other words get it. Then yes it's going to be They're GONNA be on multiple platforms. Yeah I would just add to that that if we just look at history with what happened with uranium classic there were some really small number of minors. Maybe like one or two or something that kept the old chain going. Originally but theme classic didn't really exist until the exchanges started offering it offering trading on it so you know it really was a situation where the exchanges actually lead in the exchanges themselves would say it was the users who led because they were demanding trading in it so just from that one example. I I don't know if I would say minors were the ones who decided but one thing I just wanted to ask. I don't remember who it was. I just wanted to mention like I said miners. I said minors can not do. They are dry but like generally is there was no minor right. They're not being seen him. Classic like somebody actually mind in pro steak like if I decide to four cough attacks right now like it's not it's not like I will not be able to like produce blocks period like oil producing blogs stakes state but you and that is a contentious Hartford at like that's definition of contentious. Hartford to state so like like. That's what I'm saying. There's no zero choice. There's always like like what whatever whatever's a supermajority once or or or nothing. There's no kind of splitting into contention. Contentious like options at the problem is oftentimes. The problem is not as you have a fork. And there's an implicit or a big gash or or something like that because these are generally small. The problem is that the one that becomes a nautical becomes canonical for the wrong visas. And so the problem was. Is that what it's not that you're gonNA have to branch because one branch is almost always going clearly going to branch. The problem is the function that decided. Which is canonical came. Yeah I want to add on this. I mean this is interesting were all I wanted to say is I think that like a big part of the design of I think you know. So polkadot Cosmos Antennas at very least people who have been designed by people who are had were awake around for the blockchain wars of Twenty fifteen twenty sixteen twenty seventeen and so they are informed by like the political process about Cosmos. A year into its life is just kind of starting to experience a world where we actually have like real real politics on chain there are there are real protocol governance questions and These these things are so we're like very early in the maturity process of that stuff and so our experience with this sort of like political systems are white are experience with technology platform and how that affected the politics informed. These like design decisions. But they didn't. We are still yet to know how they play apt. It isn't until you really stress. The system and still there is white tension and contention and like disagreement that we really know any of this stuff and how our our design decisions played out. But like that's like that is where you can kind of the rubber meets. The road on these protocols is is like Whoa is how they're going to process all of these political changes and like how polity how like natural community forms on so we're still very early days in these things but I think that would just generally be like I think something that people kind of miss in the like. This technology is better than that technology. We're trying to operate at the intersection of like developer on boarding community politics on top of the technology platform. And it's only the combination of all of those things that eventually becomes like a significant player not any individual aspect being better or worse. That's actually I feel like maybe what Arthur was saying in the beginning but I find it interesting because I agree with you that it does seem like those tensions from those years have really informed the different design choices that you guys have made. But what's interesting and I didn't realize it's actually literally until we were here talking looming like before when when we were figuring out who would be in the pin light. Didn't think of this but it does feel like an Arthur correct me. If I'm wrong it does feel like and I actually. I think even in this conversation. You've you've already had a slightly different vision was were you the one who said that this is a winner take all space and then the others were like no. It's not was that you who said thought or who said that though I did say that I just because it's winner-take-all doesn't mean that now it's That is negative. I don't think it's now because in the world of program you know most compete against each other competing against anyone giving a and clearly blocked today. They're not start ups but the community and right now the computer anyone's giving shit and utterly against each other was very sad is that I think that the economic insight behind maximum store act and some people use a technique insight as an excuse to not only be on the Internet but like how tribes cultures in violence and I find that up so despicable but inside correct. I think it's way down the line and I I just think it's better to maintain a a A collaborative environments an NC. Who makes it out alive rather than President tried to to tear each other to pieces like that the game we would tear ten years. Okay not now full so I'm curious to know like Robert Sake and Ilias so because you guys had this like slightly different vision that you guys were talking about Do you agree with Arthur? That someday down the line it will become winner-take-all or do you just fundamentally forsee a totally different future where interoperable world that that you guys are trying to build. That's in many ways. Just the nature of things things follow power law distributions. And that when you start to run out of resources competition is inherent. You can see that in many different ways and places in the world and. I don't think that this is going to be Any exception but like the road that we have out before us is One that has a long way to go before we reach that point exhausted researchers and fervent competition at the end of the day though blockchain protocols need to provide value for the token in order to provide security like these things are built off of incentive loops were new issuance. has be based off of demand that drives secured. So there's no demand or if there's more demand for another platform than down the line if there's a limited amount of possible demand than you can't secure all of the platforms or some of them may grow large and more powerful than others But as Arthur says I think that this is really why you know. I'd like to strike the point. That things are not settled right now like the best directions to go in are unclear. And it's really a time for experimentation. It's four projects to do something different from each other. It's one of the reasons that we also are using on chain governance and our protocol because rethink that one. Sometimes the the alternative seems to be as we've seen from history oftentimes just no governance that nothing happens and you get caught kind of obfuscated power structures and your your systems. Don't adapt as the as. They should so a formalized system of government allows the system to doubt bring in new technology but also allows people to just fundamentally put their money where their mouth is and if they want to back a position with a certain amount of conviction that can spend money into can spend time in order to back that position whichever the community decides is the way that it's going to go so my general thought here is that there? I expect there to be fundamental tradeoffs in in white sort. Of what Tokens can be good at. I think they're going to be like sort of politics and governance will will imply that like Not Everything is for everyone And so you know if you are if a token is sort of pursuing this like monitor white basically our monetary vision It's likely to be like a sort of politics. Protocol entered of optimized for that. You know there's a you know. I think all of us are serving definitely building systems. That are more sort of specific And will tend to end up with white unique characteristics and so I just Scott more skeptical than in the blockchain space that you'll follow the sort of standard -nology industry a power law distribution because of sort of scale ability constraints about community is and and And sort of standard practices and around like how. You're blockchain actually works so more skeptical of anything truly achieving like sort of like a winner. Take all space in Elliott. You got cut off early. What were you going to say? Yeah I'm actually was rob. I do think like it will follow power law and Mike. Falling example is countries in central banks. Like you know we do have few superpowers kind of controlling the world in many ways and then there's a few other like sub kind of force in a way. I do like another side of this like this faces evolving so fast and like even less two years. We learned a lot of new things. There's nuked griffey coming out. There's all kinds of things happening all the time. So it's both not the time nor it's unclear what we think right now is the right way. We'll be right way. You know in in a few years. Right like maybe. We'll switch to zero knowledge proofs. Chain right we all just exchange knowledge proofs of flying right like? There's like so many like possible answer. I turned us and I think like US exploring space and figuring out what works down and how we get it to people is important but also like looking forward to new technologies is definitely something like it may reshape completely how we think legs. This will be evolving right. I mean same as before bitcoin. Nobody could imagine this kind of thing like there's a possibility that there will be some new kind of addition that will completely change how we look at us so we should be open-minded about that at the same time. I'm green like we should be moving in like our planners can continue both working as well as continue evolving the protocol and like both feeding closer to like what developers needs what users need and like bringing new technology so. I think governance is very important. I don't think the token colder direct tugging devoting is the best way to do it and I don't think we have a good ways right now to kind of organize it at the same time like I do. Think in improve steak right. Now Val daters are kind of at power one learn other like they are people who running code and they are defining what blocks have produced so like pretty much building from there and kind of evolving that into like operational governance is crucial. And I think I'm here in many ways. Following Zaki in Wisconsin and Donna ready just because like like they kind of gave our evaluators kind of delegates Sousa voting and then pretty much like given day are too much producing blocks and signing signing it run it hardware is like like a reasonable way to to start from but I do think we need to bring more people for actually like would be. Introducing is the other sides of this like none protocol developers kind of community leaders and in other financial institutions as well to kind of manage. How going forward well. That's actually that's kind of where I want to go are depending on the time. This is probably where it will leave off but basically like if we're saying like it's so early in the space that we just need to get more people in. How are you doing that like you? Guys did talk a little bit about the technological things that you think will your technical features that will interest at different developers and stuff but like also there are the community aspects and everything so like just in a holistic sense. Like what are all the different things that you're thinking of doing to bring more people in and to get people to use your networks and And to just get into cryptocurrency and hopefully. This is not one of those questions where nobody has a plan but rebuffing on what's accurate saying in a saying she wants to be something akin to the money. It shouldn't be a political and agree with that but I also think you know the the the protocols themselves should be the best way to be particularly to be very strong against never changing anything but then you give up on innovation and so I think right now if you look at this cryptocurrencies not quite to money and as such they are political project internally go but you have to understand them as political projects and I think embracing that is a is a way of growing is growing communities because that's exiting the nature of the beast. But but how do you bring that message to people out like how do you get people? Outside the Crypto to take an interest in that like like what you just said just seems very kind of internal like not something. Where like what would be your message to somebody. Who's not in the CRYPTO SAFE to be like? Hey come check this out so my point of view is on this. Is I think the next sort of interesting big steps for Cosmos is the Adam. Community is a very crypto native community. But I think that we have participants in the cosmos ecosystem whether you have like the Agora for who are very native to the mainstream job community. They've been of the should have Java scrip- standards working distribute like mainstream distributed competing world. For you know thirty forty years is there a community? That's going to be founded that sort of more. Based that world you have people like region Who are sort of based sort of like the environmentalism sort of Sort of ecological transformation movement so in many ways. I think the way that you get being streamed people to care about blockchain's and the way Cosmos onboard. Those people is the ability to sort of Sort of go and land sort of Social Coordination mechanisms that are native to those community. Is it sort of And bring them and connect them to some of the more crypto native communities inside of the Cosmos. I think it's actually. There's a trend that's happening in real world which is communities wanting to have more control and moving away or like trying to kind of build control outside of big distribution platforms like facebook reddit etc right and like hiker noon is a good example. I moved away from medium so they have more control over their platform of users over physician CETERA and this technology like as part of it provides kind of a substrate for for sounds like how to build a community how to traveled how to align incentives and create economies around us. So I think that's an interesting perspective Daza. Juan which retallack mansion yesterday was around just like kind of Control. There's a liability right. We have huge platforms at now becoming like Zany to like Empha- like exercise control over censorship over their own product and kind of sometimes tense even and like for them like something that actually centralizers control and like in a way removes the need or or bring back to the communities to kind of more. Local governance provides a new way of doing it right but I think at the end. What we do need to do is like stop talking about like how can everybody is blockchain. I do agree that like. It's all about money and politics in underlying way but at the same time like most people don't really care most people like when they use an application right they don't think this is like a sequel application right or a you know like they're just use on -plication like they don't care so it's the same. The dollar is gold backed or not called back. They just WANNA use a dollar by some something that and we need to get to that point where like people actually just users as a function and kind of start operating on that level and like. I'm like I'm originally from Ukraine. Our economy economy sucks like every crisis at hit. Us Hits like Ukraine twice three times more. And I'm very scared of what's going to happen given what's happening was yes right now. And there's a huge opportunity for like this technology and especially money as like a for people to you know shelters their savings and actually like hold up like economic turmoil. The problem is the kind of staff has come down usable like no people can actually like know. Get it on their phones or devices. There's no like markets created in the local countries right so we're GONNA need to really obligation on USABILITY and really object game on like liquidity. Like if you think of like yours d'Ici which is like in a way they'll only right now usable stable coin. I mean I I love maker but like the amount of dies exist in the world is so small that like it's not like really operational like if we think of the tea out like removing all the issues of like you know how it's managed Cetera. Again it's just like it doesn't have the the places where it needs to be read like where people actually have demands dollars and there's dollars there's no way to acquire them so. I think like we kinda need to like start. Investing more in this in this types of things on top of like just making this stuff releasable for people so one other thing. I wanted to ask about was right now while we're speaking we're kind of at the beginning of what will eventually be a multi phase and quite long transition to cerium point. Oh and so even though we were just talking about kind of getting people outside the Crypto sees. And I'm sure you know you do WanNa get developers who are older already. Developing in CRYPTO interested in your projects. And so does that create some kind of opportunity for you like? How do you think the transition to theory? Mta Point Oh well sorta shake up the existing kind of blockchain space. Us May get until sixteen two thousand sixteen. I I remember. It just doesn't sixteen. Was you know it was talking to potatoes and how he had steak and every I remember people say well. Who Cares does this? You're going to have next quarter so what it will be. I think there's a lot of super interesting designing these hear him to point. You know but I feel like gets all the credit of is non of deployment so let's give credit to block shooter out there which are actually starting which are actually using prefer steak which are actually doing this says talking about them well initially carrying on city like. Would you say that most people that are interested in teases just our developers? I didn't have previous experience. In crypto. Didn't come from another blockchain. They just came straight to take us. Most people most people who Interesting days is head interested now had an interest in in cryptocurrencies to begin with although I think we I think more people had an interest in coin any theory. Oh my Second Dempsey. Ya balancing the community that Sayyah. I said I would say that. That's the difference. Oh interesting and what about the rest of you guys like? How are you thinking about how that's going to affect the development of your protocols or interest in them so one thing that I think a lot about with your into point now is a theory? Has Sort of embarked on this strategy? That is very much like okay. We are going to should have ground up design second system. It is an interesting strategy. Because there's an alternative Strategy which is. Were just going to try to colonize our network effects into other people's Technology. Stacks and that would sort of. I guess An interesting an alternative strategy It sort of remains open to a theory him. The option of pivoting. Like if you're in could pivot and decide You know there's a lot of things that we like the near technology stack. It's close enough to if you're point vision. Why don't we just colonize it and then try to bring our network effects over that technology stack it is we are building open. Source Technologies There's nothing that stops any one of our technologies from sort of colonizing. The ideas. Eat those code of other on and I'm kind of surprised that best happens less than than you think so. I think the the most the the way to think about the way I think about a Theorem to point out is a theory of to point out will be the attempt of the community to move their network affects into a new system to take that network effect With them into some new technology. I think the assumption that like a theorem two point that like how that happens is sort of a fixed vision may not end up actually being the case And so it'll be interesting. See what occurs okay. We probably have time for one more person who might want to jump in on that. Yeah it's like excitement in the space and is like has this kind of ring to it. So I think like like from our perspective like we focus on developers we've and and and bringing into users like bringing their product users so I in many ways like like we cooperate or like have conversations is a senior foundation on technology and underlying things. We shared a lot of like indeed ideas like Xikion and polka-dot folks and like I think like on technology side at I think it's it's kind of a in a way like shared mine mine space of assault figuring out what works with dozen how how to make it and I think like on on network effects I think it will be more utility and in some some forms may be like governance and politics but I think kind of like you ity and functionality and getting this to the users will be the like driving factor. I and I think all of us are focused on a different aspect of houses has brought to developers and we all kind of proving that this is the best way or is this is like at least a sizeable chunk of the market. And we'll see we'll see how it will play out exactly. We'll know what works when it's all over all right. Well thank you all so much for joining us and thank you also to the audience and hope you all have a great day and stay safe and healthy everybody. Everyone see guys thank you. Thanks for tuning in to learn more about Elliott postseason near Protocol Zaki. Money in of COSMO's Robert Havemeyer of polkadot and Arthur Brightman of tasers. Be sure to check out the links in this. Show of your podcast player. Don't forget take the chain survey at survey monkey dot com slash rs slash unchanged twenty twenty to have your say and how we can improve the show again. You can have a chance to win a medal visa card that crippled dot com will stake indefinitely and the offers free spotify free net flicks and three percent pack on all your spending plus. Earn extra interest on deposit for your chance to win. Fill out the survey survey monkey dot com slash are such unchanged twenty. Twenty unchained has produced by me. Laura Shin with help from factor recording. Anthony Yoon Daniel US Josh Durham and the team seal K. TRANSCRIPTION. Thanks for listening.

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Fighting for Life (with Wes Moore & David Lat)

Stay Tuned with Preet

1:18:13 hr | 10 months ago

Fighting for Life (with Wes Moore & David Lat)

"From cafe welcome to stay tuned. I'm PRI Pera is not just about a virus this is about an equity. This is not just about an illness. It's about economic injustice and we cannot pretend like these two things don't exist simultaneously and show themselves simultaneously is wealth that's west more. He's the CEO of robinhood and New York City based Philanthropic Organization dedicated to fighting poverty founded in one thousand nine hundred eighty s robinhood funds community organizations that provide essential services like food banks and shelters it also invests in nonprofits that aim to combat economic inequality to job training and education. More is the first to admit that while philanthropy completed important role in the movement to eradicate poverty. It's not the solution to this systemic problem. We talk about the expanding definition of America's poor. We're government efforts to provide relief fall short and how covert nineteen has revealed that many Americans are lot more vulnerable than we thought. Then we're joined by. David laugh the founder of the legal blog above the law and a managing director at the recruiting firm. Lateral link. Last month Latte was intimated for almost a week after he became extremely ill with Kovic nineteen. He's thankfully on the road to recovery and talks with us from his parents house where he is recuperating with his husband and young son Latte discuss his harrowing experience with Corona Virus and the ways of his life has changed since he got sick the also shares his advice on how to be patient and how to honor the selfless medical professionals at the front lines of this pandemic. That's coming up stay tuned. Hey Stay tuned listeners. If you haven't already make sure to listen to this week's episode of the Cafe Insider podcast. The full conversation is available for free in a stay tuned. Podcast feed my co-host Milkman. I get into who has the authority to do what during this public health crisis. Covert nineteen impact on the election. And what the Constitution advises on the question of presidential succession? We also talked about contact tracing concerns. It raises about privacy. Normally we sampled portions of our conversation but this week we made the full episodes available for free and this time. It's in the stay tuned. Podcast feed if you haven't already check it out and write to us with your thoughts at letters at Cafe Dot Com as always be. Well be kind and be safe this week. I'm joined by two guests. Wes Moore and David Latte more is the CEO of Anti Poverty Organization Robinhood a Rhode Scholar Combat Veteran Social Entrepreneur former White House fellow and bestselling author his two thousand ten book. The other wes Moore is a thoughtful meditation on the life. Changing power of opportunity and mentorship in the midst of the Corona Virus Crisis Robin Hood is at the forefront of widespread relief efforts aimed at helping the most vulnerable in New York City. We talk about whether meritocracy is a myth in America. How to dispel misconceptions about the impoverished? And whether our government has advocated one of its essential responsibilities. That's next stay tuned. Wes Moore thank you so much for being on the show. It's my pleasure. Great great to talk to you so I gotta ask you the same question. I asked everybody these days before we get to all the other stuff. We WanNA talk about. How are you? How's your has your family? How you making out? And then they thank you for leading leading with that We're doing all right I think my my immediate family. I'm thankful because everybody is is is healthy abiding by our social distancing guidelines and that seems to be at least health wise in working working pretty well for some of my no extended family and obviously some people are not necessarily blood related But I very much consider family On on this planet. It's been harder and I think for a lot of people it's both the hard in terms of physical impacts but also. I think it's hard just in terms of the the the mental health the asking people to adapt in many ways And also I think seeing how this plays itself out. It's being so focused and so hard that that I think we all understand in that were infer warrant for long fight here. Let me ask you about work. So we're going to get into a lot of your work and how you're helping people out as the CEO of robinhood. But how before we get into that. How how is that going during this pandemic you know? I mean we're we're in a very fortunate position in the fact that That about three weeks ago. I had the all our offices closed and initially we did it just as a test to see. Could we actually do all of our work If we had to move to a remote status in and we're thankful that the answer is yes we've been able to move organizationally with a speed in a level of deliberateness that it's just been really impressive by being able to have everyone being able to. Even though we're distant being able to stay very close I think about the work rate will do now in frankly as an organization were moving at a clip and at a speed that That even though we're one of the largest nonprofits focused on anti-poverty work in the country that we're moving in a clip in his speed. That's pretty unprecedented in the organization. So we're thankful for that but but I think even as an organization particularly one is New York base It's impossible to separate yourself from. The back of new. York is still very much the epicenter of of this crisis and the impacts that we're seeing in New York and around around the country but specifically New York have just been absolutely devastating. So we're thankful for the team continues to move in nominal move well and at the same time the known understanding what about the nature of this virus in this illness sits on everybody to. Yeah okay. So let's let's talk about Robin Hood. So what does that mean you go around stealing from the rich and giving to the poor have that right isn't that what Robin Hood did. That's a prominent. Did we will allow. We make sure that people understand the poverty is everybody's issue. This is not something that we ought to focus on the level of economic inequality that we have in our societies. Unless you keep everyone up and we need to be able to use every tool to be able to fight it and Robin. It now is thirty. Two years old Start off as an organization initially making about forty thousand dollars worth of grants. Or somebody initial founders. Most of them were in the in the in the area were basically saying and they made a bet say we think that the economy was going to take a hit in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight? Which did but they also said. But you know who this year is really going to be hard on. It's really going to be hard on people who were already living in power and so they started initially making forty thousand dollars worth of grants to initially three different organizations with New York now. Robin Hood has made north of three billion dollars of investments in poverty fight investing everything from education to housing to physical and mental health too early childhood to justice reform to job training programs everywhere where poverty is either the cause or the consequence are places that we will leverage dollars in leverage influence to be able to try to address. And so we have over you know over three hundred organizations in New York City alone that we find community organizations focusing on all those areas. And so that's really the aboard the origins of this by started from the ability to use data and metrics to be able to identify who we thought were some of the most notable qualified unquantifiably most effective organizations in the field one of the things that we invest in can actually scale because I think one thing organization. We also realized that part of the reason that we have the challenges in our society that we have is not because Atlantic hasn't done job is because we're consistently fighting against policies that keep on putting people in achieving people in poverty and then also thinking about it from the respect of how we use other avenues within the work in addition to Atlanta and grant making but what are the other tools that we have at our disposal to be able to create levels of change. Is You know wanting I believe in is that I don't run a charity is I. Don't believe in charity. We run a chain organization. And that's really trying to focus a war guys you some basic questions before we get to the difference between charity and change. I think that's an important discussion. How do you define poverty because I think different people have understandings of what that means so when you're when you say that the organization supports other organizations and agencies that Fight Poverty? What is the definition? It's a great question. There's the federal definition of what it means for people living in poverty and that's for people who for a family of four are are making a little over twenty five thousand dollars or twenty five thousand dollars a year and that's kind of the federal guideline around who was actually living in poverty. Which in many ways I think is actually an inaccurate description and not only just because of the financial area around the fact that this is a number that is hardly move eating since we started first having the initial inception of how people define poverty is. It's also something that I think it's inaccurate because for folks who are making twenty six and twenty seven and twenty eight thousand dollars a year. They're not good. They're not doing okay. It means still means something. Still functionally wrong. Within that system particularly in the fact that many of the people who were talking about who are living in poverty the majority of people living in poverty are actually people who are the working people who are working one job multiple jobs and so really how I define poverty is is how do we expand the definition that is not just about a unitary financial number of point that we can save a person's above it. Fine if orces below at they're not but it's also about this idea of autonomy. It's about this idea of power. It's about this idea of respect. Do you actually have the liberty shoes destiny for your life. Do you have the ability to actually define what success looks like for you and for your family in even people who we find to be in a situation where we're asking people to to sacrifice and I don't know anybody who wouldn't be willing to sacrifice for their children or for that next generation people who say I'm willing to do exit means that my kids can get why the problem is. Is that when we're looking poverty within our society parties become so stagnant so generational so predictable that we're not asking people to sacrifice anymore we're asking people to basically just suffer and so when we talk about what it means to fight poverty. It means really to deal with the immediate impacts of poverty means deal with the immediacy of food insecurity of Housing Insecurity of in of inequitable school systems of unfair wages. We're going to deal with those things that are the immediate when someone is poor and living in poverty. What are the first things that happen in other words as a real life matter? What are the first things have follow as it health is it? Housing IS IT education. How do you prioritize the things that you want to help? Relief people with when they're living in poverty. That's been one of the biggest questions that I know that I've tried to wrap my head around this idea of of. What do you prioritize? What do you focus on? What's the thing that you? If we can address this. We can break the back of poverty in that family and break the back of having to be a generational term is the goal to bring people out of poverty or is the most important first step to cause people to be able to live through the effects of poverty at a basic level of subsistence. Yes Oh in fact. I'll I'll answer that second when I come back because I've never understood this idea of acceptable amount of poverty. That's a societal choice. Society's making a choice as to how much party we will tolerate and it goes back side when people say you know what people will come at me and say well. I believe poverty is a choice in my answer always is it is a choice. It's our choice. It's exciting choice. It's our collective choice the fact that we've allow people we've made this devils deal to be able to say. How much pain am I willing to tolerate in my neighbors before it actually starts impacting me so when I think about what it means to be able to fight encounter poverty? It really isn't just about. How are we making poverty more tolerable or make it you know how do we minimize the impacts of poverty? Because the truth is we don't have to do that. We society could make a choice that we don't have to actually do that. And part of it actually goes back to the first question of so. So how do we think about prioritization? We know that elements become important that we have to make sure that children are starting off from from basis early childhood where we can get all the basic fundamentals in place at a child is being born healthy that when they're entering school they have all the basic fundamentals at coming in with with understanding colors and letters numbers and all the basics that they are going to need an orphan Perform academically. We know we need to address things like absence and we know that we need to address things like this summer learning loss we have to address the health implications the fact that we still have so many children in this is in our society that are suffering from asthma and lead poisoning and all these things that we know how to fundamentally address. We just haven't as large society we know we have to address things like job training programs and also reduce the barriers. That people have even when you give them job training because of a person comes out for example someone comes out of incarceration you can give them the best job training programs in the world but if we still have restrictions as to which jobs they can take then. What's the point of the job training program that we've now given and so we're seeing the way poverty shows itself it shows itself in a holistic way it shows itself where there isn't one way that party shows itself when people say like is it education or health or housing? The answer oftentimes is yes. That's exactly right. Because poverty. In the insidious way the poverty is. It's like water it'll hit every crevice that you allowed access to. It will find out where you're opening. It looks point and it'll basically turn out that entire life situation for that individual and for that family and so because poverty has found its way of being able to make itself present and make itself so deadly and so dangerous in so many aspects in all the various aspects of our live. I really have come to the conclusion that the only way that we are going to address a fundamental breakdown is back she by instituting a fundamental build up in that every that we actually look through that lens of actually being able to bring the back of economic inequality. How do you get people to care about the poor? I presume that the people who are living in poverty vote less probably a lot less They don't have you know their congressman on speed dial. They don't have a lot of influence often. People who live in poverty are out of mind out of sight from the people who have power and influence and and policymaking ability. Is that part of the job to get people to care about the poor? And if so how do you go about doing that very much? So and and honestly it comes back to you know when when people for example when people think about who's in poverty and people say well it's the person living on the street or the person who is staying in a shelter and and those things are all real answer all true but also part of our responsibility is to be able to draw a true narrative as to who were talking about. Because oftentimes we're talking about is we're talking about that. The person who actually is working a job and oftentimes multiple jobs. It's the single. Mom will pick up her child from school at the end of the day. It has to report to a shelter because she's not making enough to be able to afford to keep them in a home is the father who is waking up at five o'clock in the morning to go to his first job in because he knows that the only way that he's going to be able to sustain for ANYTHING WITHIN THEIR FAMILY. It's a person who's serving coffee in the morning. It's the person who's cleaning the sheets at the hotel that she stayed at last night. It's the working poor. That's what we're talking about and so you're right where oftentimes there's this narrative of poverty About who's in poverty wider poverty that is not just inaccurate. But it's amazingly dangerous even before we're now watching a situation where even prior to Kobe. Nineteen you know. We had relatively historic low unemployment rates and and we had people in policymakers politicians who would tout it and the reality is also we had about half of the country could not afford a four hundred dollars shock. A four hundred dollar emergency shot. Well guess what we're seeing that shot in living color and it's a lot more orange adult. It's a lot lot more than four hundred dollars. And so we're watching a you know for for our largest society now. How how destabilizing moment? They now find themselves in. I not only feel like part of our job is a tell a proper narrative about who is actually struggling with economic inequality and who's struggling with poverty. What actually I think. It's a in many ways. It's an easier story to tell because I think people are saying first just how vulnerable a vast majority of our society is and we're seeing what happens when we have systems in structures in place that Protect them and what happens when you systems and structures in place that are not? I wonder what you think about a lot of questions. About how Copeland nineteen affect your work and how it affects people's perceptions of vulnerability and and poverty something that I think has been true for decades and decades in this country when it comes to fighting poverty is there is a perception on the part of some folks or philosophy on the part of some folks they don't get people handouts. The government should not be engaged in the business of charity. That people should be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps that famous metaphor. That has a lot of flaws. And I wonder what you think about added perceptions of that are changing and how you can fight for anti-poverty programs that can avoid criticism of the quote unquote unfair and undo handout. And then second how you square that. In current times with so many people understanding that they're in trouble enter experiencing huge amount of financial shock. And there's a clamor. For essentially that government sending checks no questions asked to people who meet certain criteria. How do you think that all works in the public mind? Yeah I mean I I I I would. I would challenge Who people what people are talking about in terms of government handouts. I mean if you look at it frankly you look at our budget and you look at everything from subsidies and giveaways we we have a whole economic system that is structured on using subsidies. And so I'm not sure would subsidies and some of these frameworks are that we have in place that in many cases are seen anything other than than handouts and so the question always end becomes. Who WERE TALKING ABOUT? Who are the recipients of what exactly these these quote unquote handouts actually are the second thing is there is no more important role of government than support particularly supported the most vulnerable? That's essentially the role of government. Government is there to be able to build a societal structure that supports all people in their hopes and dreams. You know we want to have a government that says this should be a place where ambition and opportunity should actually meet. That's what we're talking about with all these elements and when you're having people who are in who are in vulnerable situations. Amer taking people who are facing and seeming generational vulnerabilities. The only ask is that we can actually come up with a system that gives people an opportunity to be able to both survive and also to strive. When we're having you know I look at what's happened. Even in the in the last the last form of the cares act where the cares act in many ways was a third bite at the apple. The government had to be able to try to stimulate the economy to use the Fed and use US government dollars to be able to keep people safe but also help to stimulate economic activity and the reality is. Is that this idea that everybody is going to receive. A check actually is not true. We have people who were going to receive universal supports. But it's also really important to remember who was left out of that so for example if you are an undocumented immigrant and you don't have a social security number you're not receiving a check coming from the government relaxed version Air Jack even if you pay taxes correct. Zachary them social security number. That's exactly right if your family member of someone who falls data category. You're not receiving a check. If you're someone who is who was below the poverty line or low income and not making enough money to the point that you weren't paying taxes you're not receiving a check in the last version of the cares axelle so it's important to recognize that we're talking about government handouts and people who receiving things undeservingly it's important that data action reinforced the army. Because when you really look into the data and I'm a very data driven person. We are a very data driven organization. If you look at what the data shows us the data continues to show wasn't data continues to remind us that on so many fronts and on so many different levels we have not been able to come up with policies that really and truly address the level of poverty and economic inequality that exists in our society. I mean the American rates of deep poverty for example are unmatched in the developed world and while spending on federal welfare programs has increased relative to levels of the nineteen eighties. The majority of those resources have not reached the deeply impoverished. And frankly this is by design and so the idea that we're just handing money out to people who aren't working or don't deserve again. There is no data that reinforces that argument. So let's talk about certain policies than I don't know how much robinhood advocates and lobbies the government. So two things. I wonder what your view is on. How effective they would be in combating poverty? One that's gained some steam in recent months. Universal basic income advocated by Andrew. And some other folks and then second minimum wage. How do you feel about those things? Yeah so So Robin Hood. In fact a couple years ago. Robin who we actually built out a policy Wayne to the organization and and a big thing was even when I when I came in as CEO. It was important for me to be able to do this because he said you know we have to understand why we have the levels of poverty that we have in the first place. We have structural inefficiencies that we have policies that either need to be addressed certain policies that need to be built up reinforced or certain policies are being proposed that we have to be able to come back and keep from from becoming law and so we've actually built out public policy. Wayne at Robin Hood for the First Time In history the organization and it was crucial to be able to do so because so much of what we do is being able to. Either you know push up policies that could were or combat policies. That don't think about things like the minimum wage the reason that we need to have an increase minimum wage and the reason that we that. It's preposterous that we that we don't have minimum. Wage is in on the idea that we can't continue having people who were working at the pacing capacity that they're working in and knowing that we still have an economic system. That is not celebrating work. I think about the case in my own mom story. I was fourteen years old when my mom got her first job that actually gave her benefits. I was fourteen years old when my mom got her first job. That actually paid her enough that she only had to work one job else. Fourteen years old when she got her first job that gave her stable and consistent hours. No one can tell me that. My mom wasn't working hard but she was just working a series in multiple multiple levels of jobs that were part time jobs. That weren't giving her enough hours. Where she continued to hathaway this patchwork assemblage to try to make sure that she could keep her and her three children. Also that's also. Her parents. Afloat down was our reality. And so if we're not coming up with structures of being able to increase the minimum wage letting people get a fair wage for fair work than we are doing. The same things repeatedly there are decreasing opportunity for people to to move maneuver into a place of actual real prosperity in contribution. You think about things like the you know I i. I love the fact that we have organizations and actually municipalities now. But are thinking about this concept of you the is well. I think about the work of robinhood. Wear you know over the past really over the past three weeks. We've now raised over thirty two million dollars in relief fund. In one of the things I'm most proud of is in addition to the fact that this this capitals come in people. Remarkably generous with a capital already over ten million is already out the door. And there's really two main focus areas that we are providing assistance without relief grant. The first is looking at emergency operation support. Because one thing we're going to see is we're going to watch shifting of the social service sector like we've never seen before and these are organizations that are doing the vast majority of all the social service work in our society. Everything from after school programs to to early childhood supports to job training programs. That's not the government's doing this. These are organizations that the government is in contracting to do the work and because of this economic pullback because of these challenges we're GONNA watch a change like we have not seen before in the social service sector so providing emergency operation support for patients in addition to that the other thing that we're doing is providing emergency cash assistance and it's targeted emergency cash assistance both for the fact that we know even for people who receive support from cares at that timing is going to be delayed because it's going to be at least three weeks before people start receiving checks in addition to that as we talked about before many people within our population who we support our people who are going to be left out of the carriage actor left out of any form of emergency support so we liked the idea and we're eager to be able to get cash into the hands of people at a time when they need it most at a time when there were worried about insight food and Housing and basic survival when you're watching how municipalities are thinking about it now. I'm thinking deeply about Rx example. What's happening in Stockton? And my friend. Mary tubs You know part of the thing that we love as as a lampy is being able to invest in things that we think have the potential possibility for scale being able to invest in things that eventually we don't have to invest it because government. Eventually take it over. I think one of the proudest examples of that you know. There's many but one of the products of robinhood has in. Its history was robin on the forced organizations that invested in needle exchanges and we invested needle exchanges. Before when when it was there was no way. Anybody was touching that they're like you know. What do you mean you're going to give needles to drug users? But the data showing us that actually one of the highest transmission rates in one of the highest means of transmission of HIV AIDS was for people who are changing dirty needles and so we invested in it we investment when no one else would. Now we don't in Neil exchanges knowing that because the government does and we liked the idea of being able to put capital in focusing on things like the cash assistance because we think it has a high potential of even though it's early but as a high potential showing as a way that this could actually scale that people can understand why basic income does matter to people can help give a real measure of economic mobility. I find it interesting that a couple times you have said you don't think of robinhood his charity and I detect. I take something more than you know. The nature of the organization there was something about the idea of charity and the need for charity. That doesn't sit well with people went for a long time and still in certain communities. Charities considered good considered a great thing. It's considered some folks religion and yet you seem to issue that word and I wonder I wonder where that comes from. And just as a prompt for more discussion on this you and I once I think it was maybe a year ago had a conversation about the work of uninsured Ardoz Guest on the podcast sometime ago and wrote a book called winners take all and he and some other folks are making this argument that the people who are of means especially at the highest levels billionaires should not be spending their time giving their money away and trying to solve through private efforts problems we have in society but they should be using all of their power to cause government to change its policies maybe in terms of minimum wage or ub or or. You name it. And they don't do that do you have. Do you have a reaction to what I said? I remember when Robin Hood first contact about this. They I reached out. Said we'd like to talk about becoming Missio Robin Hood and you know and Robin it. Against one of the largest organizations in the country focuses on on these issues. But I remember my first initial gut reaction was now and they actually have a person's Ryan the search disappoint said. Do you mind if I ask why and I said well. There's a few reasons as saying no one is you know we're we're still based on here in in. Baltimore and didn't plan on any intention of being able to move my family from there. The second piece was I enjoy doing before and the third piece was that I actually walked in skeptical of philanthropy. And I say this as job. It was talking about before the my mom gut when I was fourteen years old was from a foundation and I still want to lay. Being skeptical of a wet philanthropy was. Because what I did not want and what I had no thought through this idea of philanthropy was. I didn't want something or this was almost like a hand washing exercise where we're washing our hands up her own complicity of. What's going on and actually I said to them. One of the The people who said. Yeah you know. We've we've done our due diligence and we saw very public in this common and drew. I mean it's it's for years as documented on youtube etc. I know some of the concerns but the thing that I also realized was this was that there is a way for all of us to be able to think about what is our role in creating real structural anti-static change. What is our role of actually being able to both address on immediate human need but also being able to understand why that human need exists inside the first place. I'm not someone who adopts castigation into my standard operating procedures. I WanNa find out what we have to do to be able to bring people together to solve big problems. The measures of economic inequality is a big problem. And I'm not trying to pick and choose who should have a voice in who should not have a voice. What I WANNA do is be very clear about here. The things that we have to do to be able to address these issues here the concepts that we all have to understand that adaptive in this. This is the team that we want to try to build. And I try to do it and I think I come to it and all of us come to it with a real sense of humility about what is the role of philanthropy right. There's a quote that I I keep on my desk from Dr King and it serves as a reminder for me in from anybody else who who comes into my office and it says that philanthropy is commendable but the philanthropists can never forget the economic injustice? The makes philanthropy necessary. Because that's what we're talking about. It's a system of economic injustice. When you have so many that have so little nap philanthropy an important role to play in that I think philanthropy can be catalytic capital. I think philanthropy can help to address very human needs and making sure that we're supporting these community organizations that are on the ground doing the work right now when I'm out whether it's in the South Bronx or South Ozone Cleans or West Baltimore. The people who I'm around. They're not telling me well. We don't believe in philanthropy so I don't know why you're here you know. These are people who often times are very much trying to say. Let's come up with a collective ability to be able to resolve something. That is a structural in a societal. Ill and at the same time though we have to understand that the philanthropic gift alone is not going to get us to any form of a promised land. There's not enough length of Out there in the world in the world for us to be able to tackle these problems that we think that it's just going to be giving or individual gifts are going to be able to get us out there. Cash question about meritocracy. Because I know you've thought about this. You wrote a book. I WanNa ask you about when people ask you about your success in boy. You have a crazy resume. Roadscholar combat veteran all sorts of achievements worked in the White House as a fellow. When people ask you about your success. Do you think you're a product of meritocracy or the beneficiary of luck or some combination of the two I remember when I when I wrote the story. The other wes Moore and it came out now about a decade ago. And it's the store by myself and another guy who actually. We grew up in the in the same area in Baltimore literally. There's appoint living blocks away from each other. And as I received the Rhode Scholarship and I was getting ready to head off to England on this road. Scholarship at the same time he was great and getting ready to start a life. Sentence in prison for the It was it was a botched jewelry store. Robbery ended up in the murder police officer and I've got no him and we became very close. He's now getting ready to start your twenty of his life sentence and it was one of the questions that I think you know. I know I wrestled with and people even the book wrestled with it whereas they said well is this a product of our environments or is this individual responsibility collective responsibility and I think there's a couple of different things in west actually timmy. Off to one of them in a way that I'll never forget I told him I said you know I've always heard this expression that people say people were products of their environments. And you know I've heard that so many times people twice. The RAM is the product of their environments. I've heard so many times I never even questioned it anymore. I asked wes. I said you know. Do you think they were products of our environments? And he looked to me. I think he was in year. Four sentence at that point in legitimate. He said actually. I think were products of our expectations and as soon as he said. I thought to myself is absolutely right that we weren't proxy environments where Products Expectations in. Someone said to me. They said it's a real shame that you up to your expectations and West didn't and I said the real shame is that we both did. We both ended up exactly where we thought we would end up at some point and these messages are being screened to us as children. They're being screened us in their communities that were living in. We're saying everything we need to say to kids about what we expect from them by the schools. We asked him to attend by the water that we ask them to drink by the air the we ask them to breathe. Why the communities that we asked them to exist in in growing living and become adults. And so when I think about you know what was the process from me. I'm always I'm always careful. And cautious where people WANNA look at my story or my journey as a c. He made it so therefore. Why doesn't everybody? My story is littered with luck. My story is littered with people who stepped up and stepped in ways that frankly I think my behavior at the time wasn't justified in deserve. I hurt people would actually did love me so I could impress people that could care less about me but I still had people who were willing to make bets punts for me in ways and in times when I didn't justify or I deserve I also know that luck should not be a prerequisite luck should not be something that everyone should have to rely on and if our society is one that's built on success basis of luck no matter what about luck is who you were born to or that luck is what she grew up in or that luck is know what school you attend. The net is not a society of meritocracy. It's a society where we are continuing to build up by and that's not the society than anybody except how much poverty is result of structural racism in the country and one of the reasons. I'm asking that is in the last few days there has been a lot of discussion rightly so about the death rates among African Americans due to cove in nineteen that on the one hand where the New York Times and other outlets have observed. You know you can be the prime minister of a country in the UK and can cope in nineteen or you could be a homeless person on the streets of Baltimore and get cove in nineteen but the fact is that the rate of death is alarmingly high and disproportionate among African Americans in lots of places in the country including in Chicago at Robin Hood. And just otherwise. How do you think about the interplay between racism race differences and poverty? I don't think you can look at what's happening within poverty rates within our society without also understanding the correlation brace and it just simply means looking at history in means looking at the fact that if we look at the realities of what exists right now the elevated levels of hypertension elevated levels of asthma the elevated levels of heart disease always elements. You know it's important to recognize that those things haven't changed so it's not like it's a new phenomenon the fact that we're like. Oh my goodness you know. African Americans have higher rates than other members of the population. That's been the case. It's not like it's been well you know. It's it's interesting that African Americans are dealing with higher. Loves hypertension yet? That's not anything that's not new news and so when you're looking at something like Kobe. Nineteen one of the things that makes it so dangerous in so evil is the fact that it targets the vulnerable it is vicious towards the vulnerable in the fact that if you get diagnosed with covert and you don't have a lot of the preexisting conditions you a much higher probability of Psoriatic of this not being a fatal occurrence for you however if you're dealing with a pre existing condition or many cases of battery of preexisting conditions than the chances of this being your last moments have become very real and so when we think about how these disparities show themselves as collection different reasons and historical Focus Areas Y. No it's impossible not to look at elements of housing in housing policy has impacted the way people live in the way the people exist. If you look at the fact that you know you have a history of redlining. I'm currently in this in the city of Baltimore. Which is the birthplace of redlining remind people would redlining it. Redline basically putting essentially covenants and restrictions on where people could live where people could receive money mortgages mortgages to be able to live and so essentially it was compartmentalizing. How people could actually exists. And you know when you look at redline communities. It is literally blocks of separation of affluence and blocks later where you're watching dire poverty. That's not by. Accident is because redlining actually determined where people could live where they could buy homes and where they could not buy homes restrictive housing covenants restricted work habits restricting bank loans. We've watched how race has shown itself in the history of poverty within our society ever since the inception of our society. So when you have illness light. Covert nineteen which targets vulnerabilities specifically target owner abilities. It should not be shocking to anyone to see why the African American community the Latino Community Communities that also historically have been in impoverished areas are also getting hit significantly harder by the impact of of Kobe nineteen. I think we're also then seeing him. When we're talking about one of the things we have to address and so gill what do we do? We do have to make sure we're doing a greater targeted efforts to making sure that people are getting tested if you have people who are not those who lack insurance those who lack a universal form insurance. There's often chance that they're not going out and getting screened and tested at the same levels of everyone else. We have to be able to target testing to making sure we know where not not. Just what's happening with them operations but whose health concerns need to get address the second component? We have to do a better job of focusing on education and knowledge entry into communities help people understand the importance of social distancing. And the things that need to happen when you often times that that knowledge share has not been been equal and the other pieces. We've got to address the under these underlying conditions that historically and along race lines. We have to be honest about this along race. Lines have impacted populations civically African American populations Latino populations at extraordinarily high levels. What do you think? The consequence long-term will be for policy and people's desires for certain policies based on this catastrophic experience of the corona virus. Do you think long term. And now it's hard to predict these things but you're kind of in this business that long-term people will realize while we were a lot more vulnerable than we thought we'd millions of people who have jobs and they lost their jobs even though they did everything right and worked hard and played by the rules as Bill Clinton used to say. Do you think people will start to realize more than ever before that? This connection that we have in this country between healthcare and employment doesn't make a lot of sense or or. Do you think that we're all going to go back to the same old ways of thinking a year from now? When we're out of this I am going to do everything in my power that we just do not return to some form of new normal as the old normal was okay. My job and my responsibility is to make sure that we come out of this better that we come out of this more compassionate that we come out of this more humane because the short term in the midterm impasse of this. They're going to be devastating. And we know it. It's not even just a health implications of what we're talking about. It is the longterm economic implications of what we're talking about as well where we really could be watching double digit unemployment rates. That is going to be you know months long but in addition that if we really wanted to segregate the data and look at what we're talking about is for people who are living in poverty it's for people and communities that have already been on the first place. This is going have a devastating impact. I was recently just reading something that was saying that we think the unemployment rate even just amongst the African American community once this is all said and done could eclipse anything that we saw during the Great Depression so we know with a short and medium-term impacts are going to be on the economic implications are large society. The thing that I wanna make sure though is that we're also focusing on the long term and the long term is idea that these things that we're wrestling with right now we shouldn't have to rest with. We should not have to have a conversation about whether or not there needs to be a form of Of of healthcare where everyone has a form of coverage and affordable coverage. We should not have to wrestle with conversation of should we have people that are able to verify full day's work that you don't also have to live under the under the burden of poverty and that it's not just government's responsibility but it's a private sectors. It's not proper providers responsibility. It's all our collective responsibility to be able to do that. We should not have to have a conversation about kids who are going into schools and are still finishing high school finishing high school and are still unable to read write and compete at a level. That gets them either college or career ready. We're looking at that in the state of Maryland right now. Where even on high school graduates. These are people who are graduating from high school that we still have the majority of students that are doing mathematics at less than a tenth grade level. This is something that we should need to be have collected conversation as a society about who are we and we also can hide behind this narrative of we can't afford it. We found money. Now you know we basically more than doubled. The Fed's balance sheet. Within a matter of months we find the capital to be able to provide the support of things that we need for to provide capital for things that we want. Now we have to be. We have to be focused. We have to rely on data and rely on efficacy measures to be able to get us to where we need to get to but also we have to make sure that when these crises happen in these crises will show themselves every once in a while that we also need a society that can be resilient and better prepared to be able to deal and adapt and not survive but also strive out. Can I ask you very concrete? Pragmatic question. it's it's right to ask you but I will anyway. You know there are people. Listen to the show and some many many many struggling. But they're also a number I expect Who are fortunate and privileged? Have the ability to to give to to good causes if someone is is out there and they and they wanna do something and they and they have the privilege of being able to say donate a thousand dollars toward some cause. Some people's lives will be made easier during cove in nineteen Jimmy advice to them how they might donate in a way that effective the advice I would give is. It's important for you to find your passion point. We have a collection things broken things that need healing and need repair. And it's important for everybody to find. What is that thing that makes your heart beat a little bit faster for some people? It's animals for some people. It's the environment for some people. It is seniors for some people. It's children babies for some people. It's poverty for those who want to focus on economic injustice in creating system where we can have economic opportunity for all. I would love to have you all as part of our robinhood team and part of our Robin family but I also know that these issues are hard and complex and the reason. We're still wrestling with them are because they are hard and complex and so I ask that for everybody. Find that things that makes your heart beat a little bit faster and get engaged. Get involved find the organizations that are doing really good work make sure these organizations that have no not just not just internally but externally are proven on a repeated basis to be smart and efficient with capital and are really trying to address the issue from structural races. And then making sure that you're making your voice present that you can be. You can be generous in the way you can be generous but generosity does not simply mean who writes a big check. Generosity also means WHO's willing to put in the work who's willing to put in some elbow grease who's willing to contact whether to me is a CEO or someone else my organization with a really interesting idea or really cool partnership that we might want to explore some of the things we worked on even during this relief process Have Been Not just a capital that we put out but some of the really creative and unique partnerships that we've been able to build because there's not one organization is GONNA solve his problem and so the thing that I would ask everybody to do is find that thing in our society that you know can functionally address an issue and really put work in time into it. Half of all money to in philanthropy every single year half goes into colleges and universities I e Alma maters. Nothing against all maters and nothing against the you know the the colleges and universities that people attend but if we really want to think about what are the big challenges that our society is facing increasing the endowment of your Alma Mater. Should that be at the top of your list? I don't know that's a personal choice for you to make the only thing I ask that. There's a lot of big issues that people are facing right now and would love your leaning. You had a book that was coming out this week and like so. Many things has been has been moved tells the name of the book and when it's coming out yes so the the the name of the book is called five days and it's really about five days in. Baltimore the eyes of a different people and the five days in Baltimore that I capture are related. Five days around the unrest took place around the death of Freddie Gray and this was a you know exactly five years ago that this happened and it was amazing because one thing that I've found even now and what we saw back then is that Freddie Gray died in the hands of he died in police custody and this this was also during a time when this was taking place all throughout the country. Where you know. The The Guardian reported that even during the summer of two thousand fifteen over one hundred African Americans died at the hands of police violence and what was really interesting about it was as I continue to dig into this. We solvent that. What happened to Freddie at that time was about the dangers horrid excessive police force necessitates violence? But the truth. Is that even if you look at the two years before Freddie Gray in Baltimore in the Baltimore region alone. There was also no. There was Anthony Anderson and there was Chris Brown tyrone West. There was other people who had similar circumstances and similar interactions that lead to a similar fate. But there was something else about this about this moment that really triggered something. Different and one of the things are really captured. Me About this story and about you know really wanted to dig into the live in those five days in Baltimore. Through the eyes of these eight people was the as heartbreaking. As Freddie Gray's death was was also heartbreaking. Was HIS LIFE. This was a young man who was born months premature addicted to heroin. Both him and his twin sisters his mother never made it to high school. She couldn't read nor write when they were finally allowed out of the hospital they went to. They moved into a housing project. In North Kerry Street which is in West Baltimore and later on in two thousand nine Actually that house along over four hundred others were involved in in a civil suit because that house was poising them with endemic levels of lead so Freddie Gray at this point he is born underweight addicted to heroin lead poisoned and by this time in his life. He's two years old and so what we're talking about here is. Is that if we think that. This is a story of just about police force in the need for police reform were also missing bigger point. It's about poverty. It's about the fact that Freddie never had a chance. He never had a chance and so what I wanted to show in the book. Five days was that we watched a major American city implode in five days in five days watching Mary a major American city implode because we have yet to deal with so many of the crises in the traumas that still exist within our society that have been generations in the making and so the book was set to be released in mid-april. It's now going to be going to be delayed later all year. And I'm really side of the book. The reviews have been remarkable and an eager to get the book out. Because I think it'll be an important part of a bigger broader conversation at frankly shades a lot of what we're seeing right now when it comes to the response of Kobe. Nineteen this is not just about a virus. Misses ABOUT INEQUITY? This is not just about an illness. It's about economic injustice and we cannot pretend like these two things don't exist simultaneously and show themselves simultaneously. Well West more congratulations on the book. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your service. Thank you for everything you do. Great to have you on the show. It's good talking to you. Thank you so much great in your voice next legal blogger. David Lat joins me to talk through his near death. Experience with cove nineteenth Latte forty four years old and healthy was intimated and in critical condition for almost a week. His story has resonated across the country and the world serving as a reminder that we are all still at risk landon. I talked about the role that he hopes to play. As we move forward telling his story spreading awareness about the virus and honoring the healthcare workers. Who saved his life? We also talk about the risks of being on a ventilator the good side of social media and the Erie Reality of knowing that newspapers were drafting. His obituary that's next. Stay tuned David Latte. Thank you so much for being on the show. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me great to be here. So I've known you for a number of years because you are a journalist. You've been a novelist. You're very complex. Lawyer you write about the law and you've covered things at my office. Used to do and there have been times. I thought well maybe I'll have David Latin on the podcast never in a million years when I predicted that in the early part of twenty twenty would be a global pandemic and that you would be appearing on the podcast as survivor of one of the worst public health. Crises we've seen a century so these these are bizarre times Before I ask you to share with us some of your story I just WanNa say how thrilled I and so many people are that you're on the men that you're back home you being taken care of by your husband and your and your parents. So we're just we're just thrilled. It was I know is very harrowing for you. You A lot of people pulling for you so really glad. You're you're doing better. Why don't you tell us how you are at this moment? Doing okay some of your listeners. Mabel may be able to hear him a little horse that's a consequence of my having been on a ventilator with cove nineteen for six days but this is way better than it's been in the past it gets a little bit better each day my other issue is I get short of breath. I used to be a runner but now walk across the room up a flight of stairs and I'll be panting but I was told to expect this in. It should also improve in time can myself very lucky because my energy level is great and I feel very clear headed mentally a lot of people who spend time in the ICU. As I did for about a week sometimes have cognitive deficits but I feel As trump has ever. I expect a lot of cognitive deficits without being in the ICU. Any period of time at all especially lately. So you mentioned. You're a runner. Let's just go back and talk about how healthy a person you're I I saw you personally. I think a few months ago and you look trim and fit and very healthy. What was your picture of health before you got cove in nineteen so overall it was quite good relatively young Forty four Don't smoke rarely drink a not overweight. No high blood pressure diabetes. Generally when I go for my physical all my blood work is in normal ranges years ago. This was admittedly a long time ago. Ran The New York marathon twice. My knees have gotten a little weaker so now. I don't do that but I still run a little bit and I go to where I used to go to. High intensity interval training classes at the gym three to four times a week so overall going into this. I was in very good shape. The one caveat and it's admittedly a big one is I did have do have exercise induced asthma. If I work out too hard I start to get short of breath but it was not something that bothered me day to day life. I would just take two puffs my little inhaler and I be good to go. It didn't stop me from running marathon. It didn't stop me from these aerobic gym classes so it wasn't really something that bothered me so as you think back and look back on just being a regular person who's following the news in January February early March like all the rest of us were and you're hearing about this corona virus and you're thinking yourself how many people did and my vulnerable given you know my age and given the status of my health. Were you worried that you or anyone in your immediate family was at risk of corona virus or were you believing what a lot of people were saying early on the only people to have any fear were were elderly. People are infirm people so I will admit at early on. I didn't really think that this would necessarily be something that would affect me. That was the narrative early on in the media that it would focus mainly on the elderly or people with other conditions so called co morbidity and being relatively healthy. I didn't think that would necessarily be something that would hit me at seemed abstract. It was something that was happening a lot. Overseas other countries had outbreaks before we did so. It wasn't really something that was on my radar so then you start getting symptoms in early. March at is right. Where did you? What did you experience and then how did you try to get tested so initially this was around? March seven eight. I started feeling fatigue just very very tired going into the Monday Tuesday. Wednesday started getting fever and chills and aches. But I wasn't sure at that point or I wasn't even confident I would say at that point that it was corona virus because at the time there were fewer than fifty documented cases to New York City city with a population. More than eight million. I mentioned it to my husband's act and he said don't don't be ridiculous then Thursday of that week. I got a cough at worsened over the weekend into shortness of breath. And then by then I was thinking you know what I actually might have. Covert Nineteen so. I went to my local emergency room and while you langone on Sunday March fifteen did ask for a test but I was unsuccessful in that people have seen in the news. It's very hard to get tested for Israel shortage of catch too big big problem in this country and I was told essentially well. We'll give you a cold flu tests to see whether flu symptoms are caused by a common strain in effect shows a negative. Then yes. We'll test you but not today comeback. Tomorrow sure enough it turned out to be negative. And they said come back tomorrow which. I didn't really understand because I was sick. Most probably with Rona virus. Why would you want to send me back home back into the community risking infection of more people but I did go back and then Monday? I came back Monday in March. Sixteen partly to get tested but more importantly because by then. My difficulty breathing had worsened. I could barely walk or stand and so you were admitted right away. Yes I was admitted right away. A pretty much gave me supplemental oxygen immediately and in the Er instead of just having me in the general area where the patients are separated by curtains. I think by then the doctors thought I was a likely. Cova nineteen victim. They put me in a separate room. So-called negative pressure room where essentially the air from? That room doesn't go to the rest of the emergency room because of the different pressure because I think they realized I could have gone nineteen and it turned out. I did so at that moment. Early on your into concerned because a lot of people weren't then get symptoms. Then you test positive then you get admitted to the hospital at this point. What your state of personal worry and had your family feel about this development at this point I was actually very anxious because the feeling of difficulty breathing very anxiety inducing feeling as I mentioned I have had asthma. I was worse when I was a kid actually and having trouble breathing because of an asthma attack or because of cove in nineteen not necessarily painful people sometimes ask music painful. It's not painful in the way of getting caught burn but it's like being slowly suffocated and predominant feeling is one of anxiety. Am I going to be able to get enough oxygen into my lungs and so that's the feeling ahead initially and honestly when I got to the hospital I was relieved because they gave me oxygen? I'm surrounded by doctors and nurses. It felt so much better than being in my apartment right so then a few days go by and during that time the one thing. I'm guessing that you were hoping to avoid was what the ventilator. We've heard a lot on the news about it. This is so-called intimation. It's processing hooked up to a ventilator which is basically this breathing machine it functions as the lungs for a patient who can't grieve on their own and early on in my hospital. Ization my father. Who's a doctor warned me? He said better not get put on a ventilator and not everyone comes back from that so that was really my big fear not only does not. Everyone come back from that based on figures. I've seen now that we can talk about because we have some data and I think you may be cited this also in a piece you wrote in New York I think. The percentage of people who go on a ventilator of that group eighty percent. Don't make it is that right. Yes that does seem to be. What OTHER GOVERNOR. Cuomo said at a recent press conference. Were you aware of how bad that relevant was for you when you went on then only no and I actually have is like thank God because you told me you have a one in five chance now look in fairness some of those studies? Don't adjust for things like eight or health so it could be that maybe being younger relatively all the higher than average chance but I don't like a twenty percent chance or even some studies say fifty fifty. Maybe outside of New York still don't like fifty fifty when the outcome is death is that you're you're happy child in the background. Yeah sorry about that that two year old. I basically he wanted. He wanted to come in for the interview. I guess he's a Zen Castro bombing and but I told him no. We don't mind that we haven't except we have an exception for certain certain children Do the same for an milligrams so so when you get intimated what's the last thing you remember. What is it like you get complete anesthesia correct? Yes so last night. I remember basically was getting sedation anesthesia through an IV. I remember the nurse was basically going through the million questions of do you wish could be intimated. Yes if necessary if you wish to be resuscitated. Do wish to be put on life. Support all those questions and I pretty much said yes to all of them. I was thinking to myself as they were intimating me. I don't WanNa go. I have a husband. I have a two year old son. You heard in the background. I've I've a lot of things I still WanNa do personally professionally. I was thinking. It's not my time yet but you thought there was a chance you might die. Oh absolutely partly because of what my father had said probably because of what I had read although luckily I hadn't read the most depressing statistics when you were going through this process and you're still alert enabled to read and I know you were tweeting during this time and your mother was actually posting updates on you on on facebook. I'll tell you I I have a lot of friends and colleagues who are circulating those updates about you and we got the news that you went on a ventilator. I think shortly after that because your mother told the world about it were you actively doing research about what all these things meant or. You're relying only on the doctors. What the David. Let- I know was probably googling all sorts of things. Is that what you're doing? No I definitely was doing research for example. I was given a medications. I was given a drug called clean. And of course I was given a much discussed combination of hydrochloric win and Zithromax. So I was certainly reading up on all of this researching. I didn't have much else to do in the hospital. I didn't have any books. The movie selection was limited. A So yes I was doing a lot of Either do rational but panicked. Google searches. How did that affect your anxiety level but well you know it's interesting so I feel like you're one thing then you hear another thing. So for example the research on hydrochloric has been all over the map and I think especially. This was the case in early March so I didn't know I was willing to try anything at that point a considering my state. But it's just it's very confusing. I mean I was fortunate because my parents are doctors in so when the doctors would come in on their rounds I would call up my parents and put him on speaker phone and they could kind of quiz. The doctors and Nick suggestions you know may have driven the doctors crazy but it was nice to have somebody there advocating for me and also if the doctors were rushed which sometimes they were because the wards full right now overflowing they could just tell parents the technical term and then later. My parents did explain. Here's what that meant. Did you have a sense when you were there? Newer hospitals sort of early in the arc of all of this in the New York area. Did you have a firsthand sense of overcrowding and a lot of incoming or that? The doctors and medical personnel were worried about that. Or were you shield from that? I did have an inkling of that early on in my stay. I had a private room. But you could tell that the doctors and nurses busy because sometimes they might be slightly delayed in responding to something and they would always apologize saying. I'm sorry just have a lot of patients right now and then eventually when it got better I was moved out of a private room and I wound up sharing a room with three other patients and I think it was actually a suite that was meant to patients but it had been sort of adjusted to accommodate four am. I understanding is when I arrived at the hospital. I think they maybe had one or so floors of cove nineteen nations. By the time I left and I think to this day they have seven. So did you have any idea how long you might be intimated. No I had no idea and I didn't have any idea when I was in it because it was almost like six days. Or just subtracted out of my life. I don't remember anything from being on the tomato on the ventilator which is unbelievable because people had nightmares on it so I was glad. I don't remember anything right. Because it's it's an actual insertion of a tube down your throat connected to a machine which says a lot of things including affects your vocal cords and you're experiencing some after side effects for that reason. Too Right yes. Sort of generally the process of exhibition is not necessarily automatically a safe one. Is it no a lot of times? Sometimes people don't survive sometimes. People need to be basically be put back on the ventilator because they didn't do well the other thing that my doctors were talking about. But I didn't know any of this because I was all out. My husband told me later was if I didn't get better on ventilator they were GonNa go to the tracheostomy which is where they cut an incision in your next directly and they insert the reading to into your wind pipe essentially. That was the next stop for me so you luckily avoid that and look in there. Some people I've been reading who are among the subset of folks who survive ventilator then come off the ventilator and they never speak again. Isn't that right. No it can be quite severe from people you know six days my stay by ventilator standards is actually relatively short longer you stay on the ventilator. The more likely you'll have serious long-term effects then so those days between because I remember hearing about it and then you resurface and everyone was really really happy. You know a lot of people pulling for you. How many more days in the hospital before discharge? Then we're about six days. Maybe six days to a week I had to learn how to essentially breathe again and walk again. And they were monitoring the end they were also giving me supplemental oxygen which they gradually reduced day by day. Is this whole time. You're you're in the hospital. Are you being fed via IV or you actually eating food so I was fed by IV when I was on the ventilator and then immediately thereafter I was put on a liquid diet? Which liquid diet because one of the things that can happen on the ventilator? Is You have a hard time swallowing. So it was on a liquid diet like soups and consomme as in broths for days and then finally I was able to move to solid foods. Are you all foods now? Are you trying to bulk up? Yeah you know it's funny. I've lost fifteen pounds during this whole thing. Being Fed through a breathing tube. Fatemi had stomach problems NAS peddle all of that but now I'm gaining the weight back and it's fine. You need a lot of Indian Food David No I totally To stay away from no not really not really. I think I'm pretty much allowed to eat anything now and I have been. You have said a couple of things on your social media accounts about the experience. I WANNA HAVE YOU. Share THEM WITH FOLKS. One is just for you personally. You talked about what it was like knowing the risks. When you're about to be ventilated but you'll actually. I think tweeted something like that. Feeling when you find out from colleagues that the New York Times was reaching out to folks for the purposes of writing your obituary so to be clear. I don't believe it wasn't the Times they may have been in the works to but I found out from one friend told me I was contacted when you're on the ventilator by a paper that wanted to interview me for your obituary I I told them. No it's going to pull through. I tweeted that and then a friend of mine who is reporter at a different paper said no no no. We never assigned a reporter. We just discussed it at our staff meeting. So they're actually two papers that were thinking about this and I can't blame them. I was in critical condition in the ICU for for about a week so That is usually when he's our pre writing right. You know. We actually discuss this issue. I guess I have a bizarre household at the dinner table. My kids who were shocked to find out that anyone makes any effort to prepare for any obituary until the prisoners. Actually deceased for some people who are very very prominent. The rituals are pre written. Yup It's often the case. Thank also. It depends on the person's health a lot of older people who are very accomplished. Their obituaries are pre written just updated whereas prominent who are like. I you know you're in great health. I don't think they started one for you. Wouldn't guess they have live forever David so there's been a lot of debate. I know you're not a doctor. You've gone through this and you've been researching and talking to doctors. What is your current status of contagion or being contagious? And what is your understanding of whether or not your immune and you have antibodies to prevent you from getting it because we keep hearing governors and the president others talk about how we can go back to normal reopen the country when a certain number of people have been infected and resolved in a serious way like you. But unless you're on the part of other people do you have an understanding of what the medical opinion is about? Whether or not you and your husband who also had a milder case of it are good going forward so this is just based on the current understanding. Which can certainly evolved what. I was told when I was discharged by actually not just the hospitalised internal medicine person who was looking after me but actually by an infectious disease doctor who came to collect my blood for a study. I agree to participate in what the doctor told me was? You are not contagious. Because you've had symptoms for so generally when I've heard is if you've had symptoms for two weeks and then you have seventy two hours or so. No symptoms a. You are usually good for me. My symptoms started on March seven. So I've been without symptoms for quite some time and so I was told I was not contagious. I also believe again. Based on what? The current state of researches that I I should be immune from getting it at least short-term lot of our experts including Dr. Chee have suggested that we're not sure how long immunity lasts. There's some odd reports of maybe people getting reinfected. But it's not clear whether that's actually the case or whether it's a problem with tests there's a lot of ambiguity here as a result we're not going anywhere we're just staying at home. You probably is smart. I know you've you've written about this and it's it's very moving and appreciate what you said about the doctors and nurses and other medical professionals took care of you and are taken care of tens and tens of thousands of Americans. Would you have to say to them at about them? Oh Gosh I mean they're just heroes. I mean I know it's it's a cliche but it was just amazing. I mean they were just so dedicated so hard working and I just thought to myself. Wow it's a good thing. I went to law journalism because I could not what they do. I mean it's just there and the other thing is they just do it. You know with without complaint. I think in my whole time there on a interacted with so many people not just doctors and nurses physician's assistants nurse. Practitioners Nutritionists speech pathologist from voice. I interact with so many healthcare professionals and everybody was just always upbeat. I think there was only one person who seemed a little grumpy. It must have been dozens of people I dealt with because I was in the hospital for seventeen days and they would just unfailingly polite and a beaten even cheerful. I mean it's amazing. What they're doing is just putting themselves at risking putting their families at risk because they might get this virus. They might take it home. I'm like without words when you were there. Did you get the sense that there is sufficient P P for the medical professionals there so when I was there? You Go Great Hospital. I did have a sense that they were okay but remember this was weeks ago so things change and certainly a lot of patients have flooded into hospitals. Since then I was. I was admitted on March. Sixteen pretty early on. You've also written some advice to people who may either contract Kobe. Nineteen need medical care. But I think your words or more generally directed anyone who at any point has to go and seek medical care in a hospital or doctor's office and you had you have advice to people on how to be a good patient. WanNa share some of that before we go. Yeah absolutely 'cause I saw kinds of patients I had a couple of pieces of advice. Share just a few one. I think was just try to be a participant in your own care. Try To to track what you're going through so you can accurately inform the doctors and nurses so they can treat you properly. One thing is just in this common sense. You know be polite. Try to be empathetic. He's doctors nurses. They're on their feet working such long hours. Try to see the world from their perspective. Don't ring the call bell every five minutes with some minor random requests. There are a lot of people in the hospital. You have to understand that and respect that and then I guess the last thing I would just say was. It says the term that they use a lot in medical circles. Try To be compliant if they tell you to do something. Try to follow that. Because they don't have time to necessarily explain the reasons but their reasons for pretty much every protocol in a hospital. So David we're following your progress and you were tweeting and posting on social media that you were you were doing better than you come off the ventilator and I thought it'd be nice to have this conversation but I was not sure that I should reach out to you and then I did and you responded very quickly even though I think he was still in the hospital. It was march thirtieth so two days before you were released and then of course you've done a number of interviews on some writing. What is the reason why you're being so public and describing you know what's very personal and painful experience? What are you hoping to accomplish by doing that? Well so initially. When I took to social media was just to notify people interacted with that they got symptoms. They should get tested because it was very difficult to get tested unless you could point to an interaction with a known carrier and so I want to let everybody know that I got such a strong response to those initial twitter and facebook postings. I thought you know what? Why don't I try sharing my real-time story of dealing with this disease with a broader audience because again there's just such a hunger for information about this new and unknown disease? So that's what I've been doing over the past few weeks and it's been really gratifying. I mean I heard from a lot of other people struggling this disease. I've heard from the loved ones that people going through it. I try to offer whatever inside can again. I'm not a medical or public health expert but to the extent that something for my experience can help someone. I try to share that and I've tried to use the platform. I have to emphasize a couple of points That this is a very serious disease that can affect even people who were young and generally healthy like myself and I've also just tried to emphasize all the public health warnings in terms of staying home and washing hands and wearing masks Because I I don't know how I got this. It was so called community spread but I don't think I was taking precautions. I mean I know I wasn't taking those precautions back in early March or late February which is probably around the time that I got infected and so I think if we're going to beat this we really need to take concerted action and keep up with what we're doing. Franks again. Good luck to you and your family. Thanks for talking about these things. I know it can't be easy. There were a lot of people pulling for you. We still are and continue to be an important voice. Not just uncovered nineteen and the issues relating to the disease but also on all the legal things you care about Alex forward to talking with you and seeing. Thank you so much for your support during the past few weeks and for me on the show just now Thank you David. Conversation continues for members of the cafe insider community to hear the state bonus material with Wes Moore and David Latte and get the exclusive weekly cafe insider podcast and other content head to cafe dot com slash insider. Right now you can try. Capi insider membership free for two weeks at CAFE DOT com slash insider. Well that's it for this episode of stay tuned. Thanks again to my guests. Wes Moore and David Latte. If you like what we do rate and review the show on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen. Every positive review helps new listeners. Find the show. Send me your questions about politics. Justice tweet them to me. At Pre Perot with the Hashtag ask pre or you can call and leave me a message at six six nine two four seven seven three three eight six six nine two four prete or you can send an email to stay tuned. A- cafe dot com stay tuned is presented by cafe the executive producer is Tamara Supper. The senior audio producer is David Tattoo shore and the cafe team. Is Julia. Doyle Matthew? Billy David Kerr Lander Calvin Lord Sam Oser Staden and Jeff Eisenman. Our Music is by Andrew. Dost I'm pre- Berrara stay tuned.

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The Security Spoon  DTNS 3730

Daily Tech News Show

31:23 min | 11 months ago

The Security Spoon DTNS 3730

"Coming up on why the Messenger. Revamp could mean better code in the future for facebook a smart way to get your local news and security stories from our essay including the man who said his mom to do pen testing at a prison. This is the daily Tech News for Tuesday march. Third Twenty twenty in Los Angeles on Tom. Merritt and from Studio Redwood. I'm Sarah Lane on the show's producer. Roger Chang We're very happy to welcome. Seth Rosenblatt Editor in chief and founder of the Pera lack said the dash payroll x dot com. Welcome back seth. How's it going great great to talk with you all again? We were just talking with seth about Japan and some of the highlights of his time. Living there are visits there. You want to get that expanded show. You got to become a member at Patriotair Dot Com Slash D. N. S. And choose one of the Good Day. Internet tears. Let's start here with a few tech things you should know. Cancellations keep coming. Google announced it will not host and in-person Google I o event on May twelve thousand concern for the Kovic nineteen virus Google's looking into an alternative format for the event however tickets will be refunded on March Thirteenth. If not before facebook and twitter have both pulled out of the South by Southwest Conference in Austin Texas due to concerns although organizers of the event. Say that it is still proceeding as planned in March. In addition facebook is restricting visits to its offices and conducting job interviews primarily by video conference and twitter encouraging. It's forty eight hundred employees to work from home. Zd Put together a whole page of all the Tech Conference cancellations and travel restrictions. If you want to keep track of that Meanwhile Major League Baseball is replacing Amazon web services with Google cloud as its new data and analytics partner. It's a multiyear pact. That now means you'll see this is stat cast powered by Google cloud instead of stat cast powered by aws stack cast of course the service that analyzes player performance in abilities. And they'll be. We'll also use Google ad manager and it's dynamic ad insertion feature for the digital ads business for the third year in a row. Foxconn expects revenue to drop fifteen percent in the first quarter shutdowns and travel restrictions related to the nineteen outbreak however the company believes normal production should resume by the end of March Fox Scott operates several factories in China and apple is of course one of its biggest customers sand. It was mostly good news. Google Pixel owners are getting new update features including additional music controls Emoji more photo and video features expanded emergency help features though Google personal safety APP through Google's personal safety APP Google. Play improvements bunch more unless you're on. At and T. Google has pulled the update for. At and T. Pixel four and Pixel for X. L. PHONES. No official word on. Why yet all right? Let's talk a little bit more. About Amazon's plan Sarah Amazon announced that by adding smaller fulfillment centers in certain metro areas. Philadelphia Phoenix Orlando Dallas all. Us cities it can increase same day deliveries in those areas by three million items which is a really big increase because prime now which is the existing Save Service offers about twenty thousand items for rapid delivery along with groceries so customers will now see new today by tag on items that are eligible. Not all items are quite a few are now. And then there's an overnight delivery option as well so if you ordered something before midnight so you can get it at eight. Am The next morning. For example it's different than one day delivery which they're trying to make standard. We're one day could mean at the end of the day. The next day overnight means you get it earlier right basically you get this first thing in the morning as long as you ordered you at a reasonable hour of the night before which a lot of items where I would I would really prefer that He says this would cut down on fuel use. Because you're ordering from things that are close to you so they don't have to go by plane to get to you except they had to go by plane at some points. I'm not sure how much how much that washes it. They said what do you do you do? You have any feelings about Amazon. Cutting down delivery time given how many packages get stolen How can you tell if they're there before you order it and yet it's not there when you open the door? It doesn't matter whether it was stolen faster now. Ooh That's exciting worth every penny. But yeah I mean the the whole idea of these kinds of super huge fulfilment centers which you can't just plop down in the middle of a city right you have to. You have to have room for them that the company over time especially because Amazon now has a lot of other competition for all of the goods that you want as quickly as possible for the right price has figured out you know. We don't always need all that stuff in the big old super huge. It's better to figure out. Okay what is a you know? An average customer in Philadelphia. For example ordering enough that the small fulfillment center lettuce stock. It with that. And you know you save on fuel and Amazon is of course pushing its whole reduced carbon footprint initiative as are many other companies. But this is one way that you get there or get closer. A new lightweight version of FACEBOOK MESSENGER for is live rolling out slowly may or may not have it already. The version has shrunk from one hundred thirty megabytes to thirty megabytes and is going from one. Point seven million lines of code down to three hundred sixty thousand. If you remember F- eight last year. They called this project light speed. It was supposed to ship last year but it missed its deadline because it was more complicated than they thought in fact. Vp Of Messenger. Stand should know ski told Fast Company it was like remodeling a house and discovering new problems when you opened up the walls like. Oh there's dry rot crap. We need to rip out these lines of code now. It doesn't look too much different if you get the new version other than the taking up less space launching faster the discover tab is removed. That's one noticeable thing The People Tab gotTa Redesign Inbox read receipts in polls or temporarily gone. They say they're going to come back. But facebook intends to incorporate some of the updates into future android version so the android version of Messenger should get lighter as well what I found most fascinating about. This is not so much that they changed anything in the way. Messenger works It's a little bit impressive that they were able to cut down the code that much but if you read the fast company article it talks a lot about what they found when they focused on this because they had such a huge group of engineers working on this overtime. Allure is a lot of redundant code especially in picking people. They found that there is multiple ways that the code could pick a person and so they were able to just rip all that out and put one object. That said. Here's the people picking code ever. Every call should use that micro services were replaced with S Q light database. Which brought down a lot of the code bases well? I said that feel like this. This is something that they'll be able to learn from other projects and be able to be more efficient encoding in the future. Well one could hope I mean. I think that there's something really really interesting about this. And it's not often that Average consumers gosh encounter technical debt. Right we just know that. Facebook RUN SLOWER. Messenger runs slower or we're having difficulty with an APP. That's just not behaving the way. It should or a website but this kind of technical debt I think is actually a huge huge problem in How Systems and services get developed and the fact that messengers only been around for a white maybe not even ten years as a standalone APP. Five Years Years Twelve so eight years. It's been in development and then they created it as a as they integrated it and then they ripped it out and and and so it's been what less than five years or maybe around five years as its own thing and they were able to shave three quarters of the code off I think that's remarkable and I think we're going to see huge problems in services that people are using that are far more dependent on on their code bases and have far bigger code. Bases Than Messenger. Wins win the technical debt in those comes calling I I think it's really neat. And I think we're going to be in some deep trouble because of one last point on this I think I was most entertained by what should not ski was saying about or not entertained but most interested in Tanabe saying that they really learned better practices to prevent the code from getting so bloated in the future. And I'm curious to see if that plays out if they're able to happen. I'm GonNa need those Inbox read receipts back though. It's very important very important. Passive aggressive friendships analysts. Minke quos and a note to investors saying that his sources indicate that apple has six products coming this year and next year. That will use mini. Led's those products include twelve point nine inch ipad pro a twenty seven inch Matt. I'M ACAPULCO A fourteen point one inch macbook pro a sixteen inch macbook pro at ten point two inch IPADS and seven point nine inch. I've had many many smaller. So they can use more back. Lights controlled local demand better and deliver improved CONTRAST BRIGHTNESS AND BLACK LEVELS. Yeah fourteen point one inch macbook pro. I mean that in itself is is an interesting quo prediction here that good a smaller version of the macbook pro similar to the sixteen where it's going to take up the same size but have a larger screen and just you know better. Look at screens put mini. Led's in there. I I'm not sure how much this matters to. The average person but a lot of people are are screen nerds. Want the best looking screen. They can get and this could help with that. What do we think about pricing for something like this? Let's say all of these products come to add to the price because that's you know that's the consumer is probably well. Maybe it's a little bit like retina display. Where if you don't have it you're like is it really that great and then once you have it you're like yes it is. I'll never go back. So maybe it's one of these things but yes does. Does the price of this better technology ended up being a higher price for a product? It's an apple. Will you notice seth? What do you think I'm I? I hate to be such a Debbie Downer except I hate it but I'm curious to see how many how many of these are even going to ship because of the impact of Corona And Covert Nineteen. I think there's there's just there's so many unknowns that are happening this year because of it even if they've got them designed and ready to be built in the factories maybe the factories aren't going to be able to handle building them Price points could be wildly changed because apple may either WANNA move product or they may not be able to ship enough product And that could affect what they're charging for it. I mean I I have no idea. I wouldn't be surprised in a normal year if they wind if they would wind up charging an extra hundred bucks for for the latest I think historically have sort of what we've seen from them By in terms of like what's the impact this year. I I think it's a lot of who knows. Now I mean quo said that given current situations supply chain. These shouldn't be affected. But you're right. Yeah that's current situation. We don't know what the situation is. GonNa turn into local. Us News APPs. Smart News announced it and has now reached partnerships with publishers and more than six thousand cities. Smart News has a tab for local news based on location sharing from the APPs user articles are picked by machine learning but only from sources curated by a team of journalists. Smart News claims wants to break users out of media bubbles by doing this. The Election News Tab for instance has a slider that lets you choose to see news for each presidential candidate from a left right or centre perspective. You can kind of experiment how that changes what you would see members of the smart news. Engineering Product Data and marketing teams have also gone on listening tours where they go to Minnesota Iowa Nevada and California so far to just hear local concerns. Like what what don't you get from your news. What would you like to get from your news? They're planning to do that for Michigan. Florida particularly for election coverage not just local. These are these are important electoral states. You may recognize there but this is. This is an interesting APP because it kind of to me strikes a difference a middle way between Google news and apples news. So apple's news APP to me is very magazine heavy. It doesn't really have all the sources I want in it because apple hasn't been able to strike the partnerships whereas Google news has everybody in it which means that it's often polluted by a lot of things that are unreliable or click beatty You just don't care about it. Just don't care and smart news. I've tried it for a little bit now. Seems to have a really good handle on. These are good reliable sources that you can trust but our machine learning is good at showing you important things showing you things that you might be interested in reading about today. The Look Angle I think. Oh go ahead. Seth is sorry. I again like these. These machine learning a generated a curated stories. Really really worry me especially with with local news. There were two big reports in the New York Times in the Atlantic at the end of last year focusing on how Disinformation campaigns are pivoting to use local news sites Given how machine learning algorithms algorithms tend to be black boxes that we don't have a lot of independent in insight into we don't have a lot of independent sources looking at how they're constructed I think it's GonNa be really easy to manipulate these. I'm nervous about that. Smart News doesn't just rely on the machine. Learning they have a human team monitoring it and I think that's super smart to say we know. This is a black box and can be manipulated. So we're going to have humans looking at it on on the lookout and I have to say so far. It's better than what you see from Google News. I I hope so. I hope that continues I just I know you know we all know that. That facebook. Had you know people our has theoretically people sitting in on its Algorithm helping curate things? Google is supposed to be doing that as well with Google news youtube videos. I just I'm I'm Very cautious about how we are moving forward and there's not a lot of independent authority saying yes this is. This is being Authentically chosen or being manipulated And it's those manipulations that that worry me because what we saw on facebook is that once somebody gets used to seeing news from a particular source then even if it looks completely legitimate. It can be exploited to help spread misinformation and disinformation And if it's a sight that they're using to replaced local news that they used to have You know but but some big conglomerate pot the TV station or the newspaper and and gutted it I think this is You know a assuming we should be very trepidation about the one thing to remember. When you're thinking about this and sets bringing up some very good things to think about is what facebook and Google news do is let the machine learning spew out the stuff and then the humans are on the other end looking for problems. What I like about Smart News? May Or may not work is that they have the humans at the beginning and they are feeding what they think is good information into machine learning and if we've learned anything about M. L. It's that it's only as good as the data you put into it. Facebook and Google are letting anyone put anything into it. Smart News saying we'll feed. It is a good diet so that it hopefully puts out but her stuff. We'll see. Yeah but it's an interesting thing to keep an eye on him and service. Beaucoup has noted that thirty percent rising payments over the last two months due in part to the effects of you guessed it the nineteen virus in South Korea Hong Kong Thailand Taiwan the Philippines the United Arab Emirates Kuwait and Oman Boca's an online payment system tied to mobile number accepted on many entertainment websites like spotify playstation gambling websites. Use it as well and Google announced. It will make advanced hangouts meat video conferencing capabilities available to sweet and G. Suite for education customers until July. First of this year the features include larger meetings and live streaming and the ability to record and save medians for later. Viewing this is interesting because we were almost saying. I wonder what the rise in remote conferencing software is going to look like. They're probably will be some. But we're already seeing the effects of of of how this works it's good pr stunt for Google but it also benefits companies. That are like we're going to have to make people work from home but we didn't pay for the capacity to have meetings with more than two hundred and fifty people or more than a thousand people live streaming at a at a time and Google is making that easier for them for a period of time with the idea that maybe once the virus scare has passed. You know fingers crossed it. It doesn't continue I. Maybe they can get some of these companies to stay on with the paid plan. The bo-keun Note is interesting. Because we've seen a lot of companies impacted negatively by this But there are also companies that provide a service. You know if somebody in China particularly right or in Korea now. Italy has to stay inside. They're going to look for things to entertain themselves and Boko happens to be benefiting from that as a payment service. Hey folks if you want to get all the headlines. Each day in about five minutes be sure to subscribe to daily tech headlines Dot Com. Well we heard at the beginning of the show of the cancellations of conferences that are happening with the RSA Conference went on as planned even with a few companies. Pulling out of it. And Seth you were there yes off. How was the mood there? What was it like being at this conference in the middle of of this kind of concern? Sure I mean I think it was really interesting just as someone who has been going long enough that they hand me a legacy pin every time I go now and I I feel very awkward about that because it's in Think decade or so of of attending these things maybe more And in in the new Mosconi Center you know they. They revamped it. There's now a third floor on the on the south building and and there's connection bridges and everything And so the conference which had begun to spread out to nearby hotels and and conference areas in those hotels now sort of re condensed back into Mosconi. And so I was expecting it to be very crowded and very tight And that just wasn't the case walking the halls Was quite easy The show floor which I really try to avoid like the plague Was Sorry was also fairly easy to maneuver around on And I thought that was Different And I asked the conference if they could tell me how many attendees they had this year. Compared to previous years they have not yet shared that information with me They had more than a few sponsors pull. They had fourteen. I think it was at the last count sponsors. Pull out I think six were from China and the rest were Western Western companies So there was definitely a A different tone on the show floor people were Very cautious about using A hand sanitizer. There's a lot of washing of hands. A little bit of gnashing of as well but there was still some good stories and and one that. I've seen a lot of people talking about the today is The Penetration Tester. Who's Ma his was the CFO at his company and he sent her in to do pen testing at a prison. This is an amazing story. Yeah a lot of fun So so for people who don't who don't know or don't understand why they do. This penetration. Testers are often hired By Organizations can be small companies can be municipalities to test their networks And a lot of that also means going into a physical space and dropping USB keys into every open. Usb Port you can find See what kind of data you can exfiltrated from that And this is usually on the up and up. Recently there was a problem with I think it was an Iowa. A courthouse Where the communication was not great and the pen testers were actually arrested for doing what they had been hired to do I think the case was finally thrown out but this is a very common thing in a cybersecurity especially in this space where cybersecurity and physical security intersect Can you make a fake badge? Can Use social engineer your way into a building Or are they more cautious about it? financial services companies actually tend to be very good about this. They're very worried about you know People breaking into a building especially you know Wall Street Style companies Silicon Valley because Teens tend to be More disparate you've got people working remotely from home from a lot of different satellite offices Tend to be more lax about these things and so There was actually a talk about this at besides which is a RSA Sort of side conference Not officially related to say and So this guy sent his mom in and she was able to To put USB keys on every open computer that she could find She Got In with a fake badge and fake business card Pointing to her son as her manager Which I'm sure Tickled them to no end And he was able to talk about it now. I I think because. Nda had finally cleared on that they didn't mention the actual prison still and has passed away since then. Yes as well sadly but yeah anybody who knows. Daron kitchen and hack five they were using rubber. Duckie's binding right right so it was like Angela from Mister robot like they said Stick River Duckie's in into as many things as possible. It was pretty crazy Also we mentioned the Crook Vulnerability earlier this week on the show. But if you could real quick set. Is there anything that people need to realize this is a vulnerability in a couple of different chipsets? Right to chipsets defected broadcom in Cyprus and The in Cyprus used to be part of broadcom There the Iot Division that got spun out and I think acquired by Cyprus in in twenty sixteen I think it was and you know. I it sounds pretty scary There were there were more than a billion devices affected including Basically everything that Mac May. That apple makes Most of what Amazon makes And as well as Alway routers ACIS routers. A bunch of others The routers I think people should still be very concerned about the Consumer devices that you've got in your hand less so because those have automatic updates or at least they should if you've disabled automatic updates I hope you have a very good reason for that. Please go do your updates Patching is is a complicated business In part of it is because sit devices like routers still to this day. Don't have automatic updates the way that your phone does or the way that your laptop does You know and it used to be a big deal. I remember when browser started having automatic updates. That was google chrome thing And it was a debate. And and it's amazing. How important it but it became. Shutting Down Vulnerabilities But these other devices that don't have auto updates patch you know patch early. Patch often There's IT's one of the core tenants of keeping yourself safe. Finally you wanted to to note a keynote from Wendy Neither From what is she from? Cisco is that right yes. She's a go on she from what I'm reading here was talking about changing up how you don't want to say market but how you how you get people to pay attention to security one of the things that caught my eye was was saying we really need to make user designed better for security so that people want to use it so it's easy to use and I wanna I wanna find her quote here about the spoon. She says what if they design security to be easy as a spoon. We don't need annual spoon awareness training. Well I've I've seen some people leave and I have to say some people wearing a straining and perhaps bibs but but I I you know wh when he was talking about I think is really important. Because it's something that came up at the conference in San Francisco at the end of January with a talk from Leah Kisner Where security products are designed to fail And the fact that we have we continually have to this day. The same problems that we've had in cybersecurity going back more than two or three decades And the disbelief. That it's part of it is because the products are not being designed to be usable. There are being designed for security And that's and Wendy had a great turn afraid. She said that we need to think of security as a service And who are we not not just a service that gets pushed out to consumers but a service that is providing an important need. But something that you don't really WanNa be thinking about right. We don't think about software as a service it just is there and I think the same thing with security as a really important point I hope it's the start of a change in philosophy as to how security experts are approaching the products that they designed Because there's so much failure in telling people you know don't Click on this link in your email and people in this was sort of a shock to me but people have been fired for that It's you know it's really kind of horrific. What's being expected of the average Employees of a company especially now that software is in everything so it you know focusing on this. I think is is going to be huge. It felt like she was saying. Let's stop telling people they should be better at security and make it really hard for them not to be good at security right. Yep Yep yeah well. Thank you appreciate the The updates and and braving conference at this time in our history so far. I seem to be okay. My my dog is happy. The girlfriends seats to not be angry at me for going so there are worse things. Thanks everybody WHO PARTICIPATES IN OUR SUB BRETT? Lots of security stories there every day among others you can submit a story that you care about and vote on others at daily Tech New Show. Dot READY DOT com. You can also join in the conversation in our discord and you can join discord by linke to a patron account at patriotair dot com slash t ennis mailbag Sarah Otani. I'm glad you asked a James wrote in and said the loss of support for Google reader may not be comparable for the prospects of stadia is a conversation we were having yesterday. But James says the drop of support for daydream VR. I think is. I was one of the people who bought into daydream and Google has dropped support. They're no longer involved in developing APPS. They've cut support for the device in their most recent phones and they're letting the platform die. I thought daydream worked really. Well would have done much better if it had been supported by Google better. If Stadium doesn't perform as quickly as expected how long we'll Google's attention span linger before they cut and run like they did with daydream. James that is an excellent comparison especially in the developer. There's there's a little difference in that. Daydream was never marketed. As as much as stadium to the end user but a lot of interesting parallels there. So thank you for that. Also shout out to Scott operations engineer with the Canadian city. Who wanted to thank us for talking about the dangers of improper lithium ion battery disposal. He basically says he primarily deals with landfill operations and the frequency of landfill fires. Being caused by batteries has to be increasing just from his personal experience. He said our last fire. I had the luck of actually being the first person to spot and respond to and the mangled remains make it hard to determine what it was but the number of cells makes me think it was something like a lawn more battery. Pack the ability for these batteries to put out. An extreme amount of heat is impressive especially because it's chemical energy landfill. Operators develop a quick for these things. One of our incidents a few years ago was a Molefi. Pack that was spotted smoking and removed before anything else caught fire. It was able to be spotted among all the waste with really no sign of smoke from the cab of a landfill compactor. While in most industries of fire is a rare emergency event in the waste industry. I now consider a fire an event that is to be expected. Not a potential event So yeah be careful. Don't do those batteries into the trash or there's likely either one literally a dumpster fire. Yeah yes lead early. Hey Sharon to patrons at our master and grandmaster levels including Jeffries oops Michael Capper and Paul Reese also thanks to Seth Rosenblatt for being with us on details today. Such a pleasure set. Thank you so much for bringing bringing the knowledge and letting US know how ours they was also let folks know how they can keep up with the rest of your work. Yeah I'm on twitter at Seth are The Pera lacks publishes on twitter at the Paralympics not hyphen and our website is the hyphen para lacks dot com. We have a weekly newsletter as well Because you don't need yet another website to go to all the time but we appreciate it when you do. Yeah thanks for being here. Man and Thanks to everybody who makes it possible. I do these shows. It is your direct support that provides the vast majority of our budget. So if you want to continue to make this content possible empower other content. We do product reviews with live with it. We do editor's desk for more opinion oriented content. That's all available to patrons as a bonus as thank you at Patriotair Dot com slash. Dt Ns our email addresses feedback at daily Tech News. Show DOT com. We are live Monday through Friday at four thirty. Pm Eastern Twenty one thirty UPC and you can find out more daily technique show dot com slash. Live back tomorrow. God Dr then. This show is part of fraud fans network get more at frog pants. Dot Com club always enjoyed this broader.

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Relationship Therapy

Relations

14:38 min | 1 year ago

Relationship Therapy

"Subject Burns. Go on some crazy stuff. We've got now. This girl mission was told me about this. Podcast show mankind relationships relationships and I heard it is crazy. They got a pop on I two little play is frequent breath. Real her talking about relationships sexism for Kurdish. Then she brought. Hey check it out though tune in. Check it out. Br here come on Sundays Three PM Mike that she did it up. Took over in show now listening to relations relationships with black diamond. Okay is your girl Black Guy. Mainly here to interview lady is less. Go ahead against straight into it. So micro just started there as she so proud Ryan here. I have needed because dealing way that I have Very much so I feel like I'm being emotional e of you or the last year's the bow ride so that initially why I decided to go on our guys. Let's talk about. What did you learn today? Would you tell me earlier? It was really touching. It made me think about myself in Russia. I have one on myself. But what did you learn in Arabic as a day? White and we have another vizier by the name of Pera Garage. He wanted he was gone on all at the same time. We're excited to -nology yes both today. And they're very smart. I actually do think now I did a phone. Cockle patients The Navy Board. Today was my first actual when asked so. I learned today that relationship about relationships in that. There's no such thing as a normal relationship. They're only healthy and unhealthy and I was like okay because everybody thinks they're normal and my friends are not even close to but they all swear been down there saying well. There's no such thing nobody swear they're like Spain and they're really operating at insane well because insanity is doing the same thing expecting a different result and though they absolutely believe they are saying people wasn't the problem long and that's what I was telling my therapist to like wall. Nobody is normal. There's no such thing as normal in there's only unhealthy and healthy and five dollars really our when I was like. Wow I never thought about it like that. Do you think you are. Did you think he was normal and relationship that you have media? I wanted to be normal. I've won anybody and I think that's why my relations weren't invaded. Start off the way people would be warm they ended you know not on a bad the Indians because I was trying to get to normal Route would you think about that as far as what she learned? Today I totally as there. There is no such thing as long relationships are healthy. And it's up to you or to either leave having relationship or fix and not every to the super bowl. Do you realize that you know trying to fix? It is to relationship so it just take that one her into China fix. It takes two people from yet therapy today in your about your relationship so Arjun or you. How can you be single? The still have to deal with being a relationship or stroking his ego to make him locate. Where what Joseph Glass do well not just single as while you have to sugar coat it to make your integration when you're single is you know y you. This is something that you have to do. Even if you're single and the and the reason why is because the egos very proud like periods and so you gotta be even like. You're single there under Ryan Beers. Underlie that like there's unspoken actually you. There's an unspoken where in a relationship though. I need you to act it. Even though there are no official title is showing you act accordingly base deal. Don't end up in relation with you to make you feel like. Did I do something wrong by not at that leaders angels? Oh hockey you. Can you address on the part of if you single WANNA do but if you're dating somebody the idea that you should act lays in strokes on eagle but you shouldn't have to cater to his every knee just for him to feel a satellite? You're not this is true. But talking about male ego the male ego these strove for time-to-time Davies. A deal pat away in order for you know the content with themselves really that is at the end of the day like they just want to build. You know I remember about the bill but they just the solidify that even though their official tiles yet you're using Google and you should be able to do once you all will you all whoever you all the believe in that but that. Weiner's double standards when he has the women confirm as well. You're wrong okay last question before you go. Let's mainland on the little frigging Sensei engine that the man has got to do it. So are you in relationship? Are you in relation? Are you anna relationship or are you in relation? I in a way. Sit back there. We is different to a relationship with somebody had been a relationship relationship. You involved is knowing that you've got to each other right relations guy ego or making feel that you guys are in place to relationship yes we here's the thing I do. Relationship Tights the way demand that I'm intimate with. Therefore we have unspoken. Were in a relationship. But there's no official HIAWATHA couple debt by you hauling. Yeah I'm comfortable with that because we know that like I. I mean this with you. Just hang out together if you sold you all you do all the I'm with you too. I don't respect you. I'm as well. No the guy will do just ambient Just do a title ending. It'd be because it's hollow. Change Shit tidal does. Is it changes a little busy. 'cause win win. Titles on there are certain obligations yet in third standards that are expected with title so with of having a unofficial final kind of us. A little bit of Segue will leave a little bit surprised by Papa blight boom Bam harm relations Oliver surprised. There's somebody doing the relationship that you can't be mad at you. Mambas some light. Are you really really mad because you? You have your in relation. You're not in a relationship. The you really be his technically. You're single you got me. You're going to feel the way it is. The connection is really strong. You know you're going to feel the weight and he's GonNa notice that and you can see it and He will adjust accordingly. Like if if he's really you know he really cares about you in Ramallah you're in a in in relations or interrelationship. He's make sure that is ours. Thought there is a you see him when you is racing legend days you know I or whatever the game maybe regardless or he's still gonNA acknowledge even though he may wisdom I You know it just depends on the level communication that you haven't well those his on. You know what was discussed Blazin though relations bill and Yeah it really just depends on how you guys cash. Here's your relations. So we have an unspoken We have a role that is like sleep with someone else. You need to make sure you protect will have right now though that one of our guys. I'M GONNA go ahead and close Interview with lady as a gentleman about you before we close i. Anna certified Service you can catch me doing in Hong the size of and you can lose those at massage by moo.com and I'm all over rob. I'm all over California Northern California Southern California. You can look you point me com- if you is another California calm you like a weekend event that way. I know but other than that I can. I read you on your social need. You can briefly at lady reese's on Instagram and I promise on the beyond Z. A little bit more not really on there as much as I should. I'm on face the not really like social media's is not my see but I'm I'm I'm getting more. Tech Savvy was also meeting awesome podcast. Yes we have the front house. Chronicles make sure we are usually thank. You guys are listening. Thank you ladies doing. Why my leaving Brisbane nearly decision? Why why love you guys Mike Diamond Out. Hey Gro black diamond crazies glass and the name of Marshall is relationships and relationship was black diamond. You should listen to my show because talk about sex in the ground sexy way and we also talked about relationship on a woman's perspective. You can listen to me on every three lead on Sundays at three thirty checking out.

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Visual Illusions Deceiving Neural Networks

Data Skeptic

33:42 min | 3 weeks ago

Visual Illusions Deceiving Neural Networks

"There's no denying the recent advancements in computer vision we went from edge detection to facial recognition to real time object classification and under two decades self. Driving cars may be next on the agenda and if there's any hopes of mandra remaining superior to machines it's probably not going to be in visual recognition task which begs the question. Do machines see in the same way that we do. This is data skeptic consensus in the nineteenth installment in our series about hamady agent systems. Chief collective decision-making today on the show i speak with audrey and martine about the paper convolution neural deceived by visual illusions. I i'm. Martine was the researcher at the university in barcelona spain. Welcome this show. Tell us a little bit about what you studied there. As i say. I started some years ago so now undoing Study was mathematics and computer science with them led me to computer science. Masterson abused deal nimitz processing on. Now we were basically in image processing ongoing recent techniques with For models that comes round this study obesity in humans. Got just so. I know we always hear this analogy. That's deep neural. Networks are kinda like the layers of the brain and i think sometimes neurologist cringe a little bit when we make the comparison but i'm not sure how much they cringe. Maybe some of its fair. What's your perception there on. The comparison between a neural network and artificial neural network and a human neural network. I will definitely creamed celso like us. Now it's an of the networks of course inspired Network this we all know that this simplification and naturally i think more and more people are working on trying to go from that simplification. some Actually are margaret. And you'd mentioned part of your work includes looking at models that are used. The word inspired but something along those lines from the human visual system. What are some of the ways in which one might be inspired in that fashion will actually. It's it's interesting because the model of activism neural network is inspired beecham's so when people started to look at how actually sees you start to mobile A stack of layers where we have some with some filters When we envision us oriented field. There's that can see recent vertical different frequencies To obedience actually like a very simplified note. Landlord say i'm not really someone knows a lot about the brain but i'm vaguely aware that our eyes are somewhat imperfect in the brain does a lot of cleaning up yet. I don't know if that's true in the more computer vision. I think our cameras are maybe more accurate than the human eye in some cases. And there's not quite as much cleanup. Are these fundamentally different approaches. Or at the end of the day do both systems have basically the same day to set. Nah i think it's a analogy because there's a bar that is only the information that we receive from the exterior. Let's say the luminance of they're seeing on the This on bar. But of course we don just see that we processing formation on this is why we say that we actually we perceive information because there are some other things that are happening in our brain taking this information on combining with everything that we know from the beginning memories although stop so we actually is when we see at camera. recording is actually taking just some information soon so the analogy would be computer. Actually tried to do this analogy so when you put so not. What's behind those cameras. Tried to do something without information. Either retail They're like following someone. Then you're more or less doing this analogy how ac. Because when we see we are doing something with information is it not only just preceding the light which is the dot com era's i saw perceiving and processing. Then is that right. yes exactly. Yeah it makes sense. Well the main work. I invited you on to talk about with the paper titled convolution neural. Networks can be deceived by visual illusions. I thought maybe we should start with a definition of a visual illusion in my mind. I'm picturing like the image where it's either a candle or two faces or maybe some. Mc art is there a formal like mathematically satisfying definition of what a visual illusion is own. Think so. I think it's something that you see one but is not so easy to describe. I would say that the these right is something. By general it would be some images stimulus usually name it that actually cows illusion in your rain and illusion will women with any lewiston. Is that what you perceive is not consistent with reality. So we've got mr light actually with photo mentors for instance and we can measure a color. That is different from the one that we are proceeding. So that's obvious lucille. When actually the reality perception are not in the same face do machine learning or computer vision algorithms at least the ones that people have created so far. Do they end up having visual illusions. The way people do well this is. We're trying to take in this world short answer sometimes. There are sometimes on some type of physicians. That actually are newseum for us on the. We can also see that. They are losing for on neural networks. And i would imagine. You're probably familiar with the work on the fooling images where you can use a generative adversarial networks to trick some of these algorithms. Do you consider that a visual allusion. Or is that something separate now. I would say that's different at least from the typo be solutions that we are targeting here actually trying to go through the simplicity's loosens because it's actually i mean as you some research about these lucent seat There are really many many types many Onions really difficult to actually get some sense or some categories way of is in them so we go to only have very simple ones like this elusive are israeli Like brightness solutions for corey lucienne semi is something much more simpler than that so imagine that we have an image that is separated into sites. One of the sites is white on the other side is black pure black. Pure white will help us here. And then i put a smaller square in both of the sides discredit has a great value. That is between black and white. What is going to happen for. All the observers is that this is over. The black background is gonna look lighter for us than dealer square is over white background. This will happen. Always of course. We know that they have the same gabaglio. Because you can do actually says with power boy. Angry this for yourself. You're gonna copy as the same square and you're gonna see the once that you put that one that you plays one over the white and the other one over the black. They don't look the same for your eyes and this is really something that is surprising when we see it solely in such a simple example so this type of illusions that we are actually targeting here. You've done a wonderful job describing visual allusion on an audio only podcast here. So thank you for that. Thank you when i think about that. Though and the way a computer seas and i should probably put quotation marks around the word seeing for the computer vision but it sees it as some rgb pixel value so the machine is not fooled by such an illusion. Is that the case. That was the thing that we started thinking right. Actually getting my why but there are many theories on why nuisance happens to us is is not clear at all. I mean the theory that is more accepted as the day. Something loosen scenario Our bestial has Actually when we get some inputs vary to the the our buddy artificial based on how the brain because we are not used to that Our brain or percents yonis really optimize to see well in reality. But the of course i martinez is. No doubt is not being what is similar to us. The most of the cnn's when they are trained. Maddin dusk trained in Rallies so somehow we are replicating the same process the happen to us because when we are in these machines these cnn sore after networks the same thing could be happening on the actually what we try to see what i learned the word pera dollah. Which is you know the. I guess the tendency for the human idc shapes and regularity that isn't there like a seeing tiger in you know just what ends up being blowing leaves a very high level that appealed to me from some evolutionary perspective that the human being who thought a tiger was there and ran probably lived to reproduce in a way that the person who wasn't scared and stayed and got eaten does. I don't know how scientific that is but it sounds pretty good to my ears yet. Aside from like you know avoiding the wimpish or things like that in a digital world owes computer vision algorithms. Don't have the same selective pressure you have any hypothesis to why they should develop these same sorts of tendencies as i said they loosen. We are actually got rising are much more simple than the so they here is the way we trained these were to perform like betty simple tasks because we actually wanted to see the Announced separate dethrone their environments as possible is so safe for stands we three nine were just noise in which is probably the most basic image processing that Well known but basically so if i have an image the has some noise some resumes that can happen because sign taking the picture when the conditions. We tried to remove. That noise saw association. That's usually the basis of image processing alloyed. So i i love the noise in so when you train. Uh cnn for Will this happening. There is in the end. Stucco of a lot of linear filters that are being trained in this process. will we start seeing our would like basically filters which are the ones that are discrete. Thorough is like the most basic if you wanted to create a new in a very basic way. You will use Something that has a birthday. Gala strives than something. That has recently striped. So these are the most basic components so funny ailments so if you wanted to be kubota name it's basically and the cnn's when the upstream for something like seem like the noticing when you check without these weights. How are these fields islam. They have you can see this type of filters now into the point they bought. This is that we actually have the same diversify builders somehow encoded in our brain so our neurons are on. This is again a site buffeted by these somehow. Proof in some notable physiologic experiments. We actually have this type of field. They're single in actually in the one in the part of the brain that retina. So that Actually cnn's are when they are trained. They're basically To that we also have in our brain in some simplify by the way is not for sure is not us complex as our brain. But somehow they're giving their yeah. It's interesting when i started reading the paper. I assume that any ability that a cnn developed to notice a visual would be something akin to a bug right if my eyes see different than reality than my accuracy is not where i'd like it to be but having concluded it. I'm walking away wondering if i should apply the famous phrase. It's not a bug it's a feature. What are your thoughts on that. That's actually hope. Will we see here. Is that there are so narrow network that are actually closer to our perception in some ways. So we've seen this study. Is that some of the doors that we there's are actually reproducing in somehow this is why loosens in a way the than others so then they have to think about that. Is that okay. Can we use that to actually bill. The neural networks are bathing some way because if we think only about performance rally this is not the case because i mean we know that we make errors our idea law would be that the neural networks the make the same errors that we do but there are some things in where human perception works much better. Neural networks and this is the case of samples and annoy montana. Where are you on these Samples are something that our imports that we can put into the networks and make them basically collapsed In some ways that are really ridiculous. I would say compared to humans. So say for instance these neverland words that are really really would the in recognizing classes of images or say that we have these big databases of types of Levels that are able to get Actually human in recognizing okay. This sunday melissa tiger lion but then there are these other cell samples in where you actually Justice the images. You put a little bit of noise something. That is actually ridiculous for us. The sometimes it's even difficult for humans to will has changed between the arena limits and the new one and then the the neural network says that it was before a tighter big Being tiger is now. I don't know american so in that way. Perception is still. Thanks a lot. I was saying is deal bedlam machines on that and our hoping in this war was to see okay. Maybe we have found a way to see if annette worries closer to the perception. So maybe there is a way that we can actually bill narrow networks that maybe they are not the best performance but they get And then they became better against these type of other samples for instance the adversarial attacks while fascinating are also somewhat disappointing. You know that this algorithm it looks pretty good. Could make mistakes that it really blunders right. It's not like a child who says a ukulele is a guitar and you understand the mistake. They're more worrisome errors. I don't want to over exaggerate. The connection but do you think that. Some of the work. You've been embarking on here. Might be the key around that s- that if machine visual systems were better able to replicate some of these same base level phenomenon. Could it be that that inoculated them a bit from the adversarial attacks will. That's for sure. Our hope i wouldn't go that far. I mean our biscuits Here is to actually have a tool to better understand these neurons. Were on so how this could get us closer to understand why they failed so significantly Well as i say that would be for sure our fiscal if we could do that i think would be really really interesting. But i don't want to go that far. Why appreciate your earlier description of going into paintbrush. Sure powerpoint or whatever and reproducing the gray box illusion. But tell me a little bit about your data set. Did you have a lot of abstract art projects or do there exists common corp. for this kind of thing now. This is something also Detroit to work with the because actually have failed. The these mainly working in what is called the fellow basile science which is people who are actually trying to understand how human works is not saturday community. I would say that most of the outgoing Most of the data sets that people have are is more reviews and they're actually not prepared for something like machine learning that actually we need like big amounts of data so this is actually a pronoun naturally. When we were creating these work we somehow felt like we have to invent many things that we had to create this loosens. I mean based on of course collection of illusions but we had to create this team. Lose yourself we wanted to who like Some other ways. We actually have to build from really from this crowd so that was Rollin would say and i think we closer to genetic that bigger database but the no like unreal golestan right now for working on that thanks to this week sponsor nord vpn. 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Vpn dot com slash data skipped in the effort to reproduce these allusions or at least i guess see as you guys did find that indeed. Cnn's do reproduce the effects of visual. Allusions could zoom in on what that means do you do some sort of model introspection or is it that you watch. The trained model fail at a visual task. How do you go about this. Empirically inference i this department that we actually the there were many but the first one was with was the simpliciter. Some illusions like the one that i described earlier that happen for every human so we don't need to actually there's the human again there are some that are already tested like many times in two so then we leave this actually. So this is made sam. We have active network that processes Imp the same image on. What is the output coming from a neural network. Usually these type of shows like they won again. Like the one that i described with the golden bear so without do with the same Before i have one nimitz where the background is white on a half square in the middle. And then i have diesel remits where the background is black and this is is the same square than limp with those committees. These two images on network and then i will compare the outputs in output. That will compare. We'll have happened with the square so then again tick the square that the surrounded by black has saudi funding density from the square. That is surrounded by wife after us in through the neural network. And this is what we actually found. Is that when we say that we were replicating. The same effect is because this was a lighted for us. This is what was happening after passing by the neural network that this has had agreeing density that it was higher than this guy was surrounded by white. After buzzing through the neural network. And where are you looking at exactly is that of the top level output layer or you inspecting some of the lower levels in that hierarchy also quitting for us actually. We started a working with nodal network. That were used for classification on their. We had brolin because as you know you start with animates than you. Go through all these layers. You basically lose emits it's on forming something alison than is very difficult to actually see this so we need to like jennifer sharp good to that was to okay. Let's restrict ourselves. I two neural networks. That performa dusk that is image base. So for instance image Is gone a big one image and then output twenty minutes so then we don't have the we can go to the output of the neural network and compare their a lot of the techniques in the architecture of the cnn be destructive to this process. I'm thinking of pooling in particular where you know. The kind of maximum value is taken. Are there any of these. I don't know if you'd call them. Regularization techniques but sort of standard architectural features that would either obscure enhance these effects excellently. What we found. Is that these papers selena. The detailed analysis That we did actually published in the cpr in that paper will Was starting from a very basic architecture. Actually betty simple with two layers. Start playing with these type of things. Like what happens if i would bullying what happens if the pooling has the size or that side though so we tried to actually go over everything which was not satisfied with the because it was very difficult to actually get an idea what was happening but what we go on. We from the analysis of this policy in the paper is that the most non linear that your system for instance pooling if he's a maximum bullying is gonna make really near the modern only narratives that you have in your system the less evident that is effect of the solutions so actually when we actually tried this architecture the effects that we observe are much much smaller so this zone how has legation that in some ways the deeper that we go we can see that we are getting away from our perception which is interesting because these are the type of network actually having this big problems with something like of the royal docks and. I'm curious if you have any thoughts on whether or not these effects will as you describe the sort of fundamental their squares and edges. They're not necessarily the mcs. Scher art will the same effect scale up. If you continue this work. Do you think you might see that. The same networks have similar visual allusions from more complex structures like our humanized. Do there were other works that more or less at the same time that we started working on this we're finding this type of So for instance this this network the disease were creating a network the addict the next frame in a video it gets us a frames and then at some point after betraying for that predicts the next frame it would they follow these that if they get us a frame one motion illusion that is very famous is caller snake- snakes elusiveness basically like. Nfl snake is based on kind of rings on has very some callers in blue jello. I think if the people who are listening concerts snakes looms that will be the best because there's no way i'm going to plenty of well. The funny thing of this solution is that just looking at it started moving around. And just seeing the nate moving as making some cycles will they found in this world. Is that these network that they were making to predict frames. The next frame in review it was able to predict extralegal We see so. It's something i would save more complex than the type of offense that we are seeing after that happened. So mother works that trying to see if there are some that are some loosens that they're call completion in where there are some type of saves that the human brain even Got for instance. If we see domestically triangle you have a triangle where you have been got in the corners but the rain somehow is seeing the corner so long hundred percent sure that gardeners there that event that they are caught in your brain. You can see those governors so you have very idea the how those lines will go and get together a corner so they found out so that in some networks that are complex like for instance Classification could prove the This type of loose could be seen. What was the motivation to start looking into this. Why would you even begin to imagine that computer vision algorithm could be affected by the same visual illusions. This was a idea of alex. Alex underdevelopment quiz the abused student in our group. And i would say that wasting was it was unreal idea from his first month of the beasley Think is really impressive. He basically arrived to I don't know if you've been to spain the Spain novels is a wonderful time for holidays but these very time for working because most of the people are on holidays so how the whole gunter stops that month so he arrived there in barcelona his first month of his. The am basically was nobody around. Yes go a lot of things to read. So he was gonna work on the connection between On networks so there were some things there. Thank you start looking. At the motives of the science people were working with on. He noticed that actually this type of models which are basically is dot gov komo news some type of combat loosens then some not narrate the more commercials were basically like a very simple but actually be some science people train that the deal parameters until they get with the looking for so this was whether united this he's via loose our main thing the resumes scientists have to actually play with his mother. So let's say they're building a model the way that they can. This is actually good or not. are thin to so then i think when the years instead started working for him and like okay. Maybe it's actually true with cnn's because they are really really similar in the way that they are build the all are based on the idea that the brain somehow gumby describing the very simple Combination of layers. Tell leaner and leaner so all those things. I guess being very bored. In spain inaugurals was where the main reasons why we started working on that and then we arrive in september on this idea and then we have to push it because he was really nice were board. Spain sounds lovely if uses insights. Like this one. I'm curious if you have any thoughts on where this line of inquiry will go over the next couple of years. Is this sort of curiosity or do you think this might be the tip of the iceberg in some fundamental insights into the nature visual systems. Well we for so. We're gonna continue trying to see you say the of using this to make some never net was closer to perception have actual future. This is the main note without try. Do find from the on the On this is something that we are already working on it than having the first disparagement some not fully satisfied yet is that unto now what we have seen his again. If i have honesty motors Loosen for humans. In some cases it occurs that he sexually abused by For cnn's but can we go the other way around gum we find something that For neural networks on denny st- checking. This is obviously losing for us. What we thought it would be very interesting is that we are able to do that. That would mean that. Maybe we can find a way to synthesize Loosen and this would be really really useful. Because as i said. This is not Way right now to actually get database Looms and they are really interesting for studying how we perceive so i knew for sure very interesting weekend used something that is completely artificial to great solution. That is an illusion for for us as humans. So those are the two ming received from here because differs by said would be okay. Can we create known closer to human perception. That's one thing on the other is okay. Can we use db solutions that we get through narrow networks to study how the human beings in work so the way around. It's very interesting as a slight tangent. I'm not a juggler. I don't know too much about juggling. But from what i understand at some point. Mathematicians put some sort of systematic representation around juggling and in a similar way just because the algebra worked out ever so conveniently they actually discovered new juggling moves by working the mathematics. Are you inclined to believe that a sort of more rigorous system could exist first of all for describing the set of all visual allusions. Maybe it's not so easy to encapsulate. But if so might. We have ways to do that. And then make inferences from that that the language. If you will a visualization the amazing. There was a study where there were some people who were trying to use. All the things Right now they basically created that database on pulled them together and then they use a neural network. One of these networks to try to generate Sadly this study failed. Because he's solely frank between each other. The was seen abundance of different images that he could not get any instructors. So as you said if we could get so mathematica description something That can described something that for sure would make notion that will allow us to generate lots collection this type of illusions and then from that. You know that we can that we could try to actually use these type of seizure vices it could be again Network would be any advice in other words that tried to produce new things from that so should that would be a wonderful thing. But i think we are going fire right now. Yeah equal parts excited and other parts terrified that every ad see the internet will be confusing mind-bending thing capturing inch and yes. Yes that's so. I'm curious to wind up about what's next for you. Is this sort of the primary line of inquiry and your research or are you working on broader questions. As well i would say this is right now our Main line of but the other point that we are working. Also as i mentioned before these science models on the neural networks are based on these very simplified. Modelling were just get collection of lena. Non-linear operations and go from that inside to replicate whatever you're trying on this is actually the basis of machine learning this type of fugger's and we're actually working on other models that tried to be a bit more up use some kind of more complex that tried to replicate better. What is actually happening. The brain or in the vcr which is very good shopper for that and then see Bill from those models new type of nodal networks are somehow closer to our brain works. What's very fascinating and his kind of been illuminating for me. I always thought of the human eye is maybe weaker than computer vision because we could engineer the computer version. But perhaps there's still a lot of important biological lessons to be learned here. We know that there are many things in wits martinez gun excel lesson data already beaten us in some that. There are still some things that we likely that we can do that. They can't do so. Maybe we are a Souness gary because we are trying to close up and take what is still only Of their human vision inside the believed on the machines. But i mean it's a fascinating way to actually study. How recent worlds. Because we actually don't know many things that's for me the most interesting bar a were. You sold these studies on these. Include this thing the Y we see how we see how interpret the things that we absolutely at. Where can people follow you online. A half to go with his moseley in hispanics if you want to follow work and a lot of nice things about be solutions. I think the best that you can do is to follow alex in twitter. The business to them. That i was talking about his two days and i think he really likes this topic. He of interest in things because twitter is full of people who likes to play with loosen very cool looking forward to following him as well drained during. Thank you so much for coming on the show to share this work and all your research. No thank you very much for having us he was replaced. Includes this installment of skeptic consensus our guest today audrey on martin. Cloudy armbruster associate producer. Vanessa bercy as guests coordination. And and i've been your host. Kyle polish sean.

cnn corey lucienne Maddin dusk pera dollah Spain celso melissa tiger beecham martine Martine Masterson common corp barcelona audrey lewiston betty lucent lucille
SIO252: Lindsey Osterman on Parasocial Relationships

Serious Inquiries Only

55:06 min | 5 months ago

SIO252: Lindsey Osterman on Parasocial Relationships

"You're listening to. Serious inquiries on. Hello and welcome to series inquiries only. Two hundred and fifty two. I'm Thomas Smith and you know what? This is a bit of a change of pace because I used to do episodes like this all the time. But then politics happened in two thousand sixteen happened and all that. But this is back to kind of a sci-fi episode. I'm really excited to have Lindsey Ostermann on WHO's been on the show before we talk about that in the beginning. So you'll you'll hear that but she's a psychologist and she's on the show today to talk about Paris, social relationships, which even if you don't know exactly what that. Means yet you probably are taking part in impair relationships right now it's super interesting stuff. She also goes into some studies that have been done end a study that she did with perhaps some of you listening involved in that study she drew drew from the audience and I actually had forgotten about it. As you'll hear because it's been two years and then toward the end even takes us through a study of Pera social relationships with trump and how that might predict voting. It's really interesting stuff. So without further ado, let's get over to the interview with Lindsay Ostermann. Joined by guest it's Lindsey Ostermann how you doing a fantastic letting my best life none of that can be true. Now Grill that instantly lies. College started classes today soon. That was that was fun. Yeah I'm seeing a lot of. Stupid topic here a lot of colleges mysteriously are like wait we can't actually do this. Yeah. Not Doing it. How is your particular school handling things? I mean I. Think they're they're they're definitely not the worst example I think say I instantly retract question because I don't want cost to your job or something like. No I think I can honestly say I I can get behind the reopening plan. As far as they go the they're doing a lot of testing they're doing a phased opening. So they're they're only bringing back students to campus in waves and they're taking a lot of precautions but I just think you know there's nothing you can do about frat parties. So that's kind of. Those already bad enough without covert. That's rough. Yeah. But you know people may remember you from such shows as two years ago. I think was that when we do defense of evolutionary psychology was a different topic, I don't remember. Yes. So the one two years ago was about the. Actually it was about paranormal relationships That was ESPN. Thanks. So then the first one we did was even longer ago than that you're saying is that was that was two years before that. So we're on a two year schedule apparently. Yeah. Thanks for coming back I. We must be at your on an asteroid or something that orbits. Maybe I am only comes around every two years. Yeah. Wow. So it's been four years since we talked tvos psych that is your field correct new for people who don't remember can you? Can you tell us what you're counting your areas Yeah. So I'm I'm a social psychologist by training, but I developed an interest in evolutionary Psych Grad school and not much of my published stuff really takes an explicit Yvo focus at this point, but it motivates my questioning and just about everything including a what we're GONNA be talking about today. So yeah, which is para social relationships is that right That is something that does sound applicable. Relevant to my life. Maybe I don't know I'm I'm curious to learn more about what you have to say. So why don't you just define what you mean for everybody? Sure. Yeah. So a para social relationship. Is the the one sided bond that people can develop with media figures, and so that applies to illustrious podcast hosts such as yourself, but also fictional characters and shows and books, and thanks. And Yeah. So critically there formed in the sort of one sided environment but they they still feel and in some ways function in a very real social way. which is kind of interesting. Yeah. That is interesting. So it's is the relationship I have with all the pretend listeners that I have is that what you're saying the fictional? Hope. I've got a great lengths to invent fictional listeners like numbers and stuff. So I can have this really didn't you know it is interesting and But like beyond just the fact that I I imagined this happens to lowly podcasters like me. It's also just a very fascinating topic I mean I'm sure I. Do the same thing with people I listen to and fictional characters. So I'm sure there's a lot to study there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's that's kind of the thing that I find interesting about them as on one level. They should be very intuitive because I think that everybody has this experience I think it's it's one of the fundamental things that makes it fun and engaging to watch and listen to media. but at this other level, they really don't make any sense like, yeah. Why should I form a bond with pixels on a screen or recorded audio right so that's why I find them interesting and I I do think that your perspective on these is especially interesting because like you said you, you have these right but also you've had the experience of people coming up to you at conferences and complete strangers, but they feel like they know you. And that has to be kind of strange I would I would imagine i. You know it's interesting I in I, believe it or not that that part I don't have that much of a problem with for some reason I'm okay with. People like I'd yeah. Now if someone wants to talk to me, I'm like, cool. That's awesome. So I don't really think a whole lot about it, but like it is true that oftentimes people will message me. and. They'll say something that I've said or respond to something I've said, and I have no idea what they're talking about in in their mind I just told them. They'll be and and it's so funny like I you know it's all in good humor in everything. But like sometimes I have to be like I don't know what you're talking about what show of all the million things it was and it is it is interesting. I suppose the Holy Grail of this field like the movie her or whatever like is an. Because that always struck me as a little not realistic. But is that? Are there extreme examples like that? Well, I mean there are extreme examples but I'd say that her actually. I. Wouldn't call that social because it was actually two sided. Okay. Not Technology on the same. Yeah. Yeah. I mean if you assume that they, I was conscious which I think you can rent. Oh, you can. Oh Confession time I don't think I. watched that one I. Think I'm confusing this with there's one where the Guy has a relationship with like a sex doll. What does that one? Oh, yeah that's a little different care something in the real. No. Larson the real girl I was thinking of the T. Anderson want to maybe that's the one. But the real girls a thing. Oh, anyway kind of confused the two things but so if you. Take it that the is is not conscious or whatever. Then that would probably be social right because it's not. It's kind of a one sided thing boy man you're asking the hard questions let me to skip to the hard questions here. Let's tackle the talk more about the easy questions. Yeah. No, I think I. think that the fact that this is a blurry categories actually really interesting it's it's blurry now. I don't think it used to be quite as blurry right like noon when mass media kind of started to proliferate. Yeah. You listen to radio programs you watch stuff on the news or whatever, and you are never going to interact with those people in real time. Right. So all of your interactions are one-sided. You're you're interacting purely through the fourth wall everybody thought that Walter Cronkite was her dad or something. Right. So that's the pair social bond. But if you're talking about something where you're actually having like reciprocal interactions in real time, and that's how you're forming the relationship at say that that's that's where you're shifting into something else does like a relationship. Yeah pretty much. but like you know. Like a lot of people now have mediated relationships they they're friends with people, the Internet that they never meet you know, and that's two cited, but it looks more similar to appear social relationship because you don't meet them in real life. So I don't know I think these categories are getting blurred now. In all kinds of interesting ways plus like if we all like for people because I you know I was just talking about this on my previous episode. But I've my facebook is all largely people I don't now. I think is different than most people because they don't have a podcast facebook account that idea like I do and so in some ways I was thinking like maybe Like you're suggesting there you could almost have para social relationships with each other because the stuff we post is not really a reflection. Of Our true selves all the time. It might just be kind of a representational thing. So in a weird way, it's like two people who have a para social relationship with each other maybe. Gosh. Okay. So Lake in in some ways, all relationships are para social. We're now we're really hold on. Long hits to get to that level of the say that for. Yourself. So again like I think that the the thing that can bring you back to the the definitional difference between an interpersonal relationship pair social one is whether you're developing through one-sided interactions or not. So Internet relationships I'd say you're still reciprocal Gotcha your your case is interesting because you end up having interactions with people who developed their relationships with you para socially. Yeah. So that's different. Yeah. Is this is this like an isn't intervention? Really, just trying to get on the case of leg, I would need to do something about the now. That is interesting. I mean people always say like every time you know everyone always go so weird to hear your voice and I get it because like I've had the same thing back before a piece of Shit I, used to listen Adam Karol all the time and I mean it was probably on some level always some level piece of shit but like before trump wasn't as Bad or something I used to listen to him a lot and it was we like I never met him or anything I never tried to interact with them but it was always weird I list back in the line days especially, like listen to him the radio all the time and whenever I saw him like his actual image with the voice I was like that's not him. Like I had a whole thing 'cause like you know I. Never looked him up in the nineties or something when I was listening to love line. I just had a whole like idea of who this guy was. Iran's image or whatever my head and I saw him and I could not get the two go together. Yeah it was really weird. Yeah that probably speaks to something fundamental about the mechanics of her social brains or something. I'm not an expert in that but. You know when it comes to like the podcast cognitive dissonance with Tom and see. So everybody always says their voices are switched like Toms Voice looks like see sel and vice versa kind of thing. Silent coup conspiracy for on. No but it's actually a hundred percent sure like back before i. knew them like just looking at the logo I thought like Oh. This guy is that in this guys that 'cause we just because like you say we have this I think. Generally speaking it somehow like a size related thing like a higher pitched voice is going to be a different size and lower but just generally speaking i. think we all do that a little bit and then now after I met them though like now, I cannot imagine that like now that I've been friends with them I can't remember what it felt like to think that. But I know I thought that like I know I had that opinion for a minute. Yeah. Yeah. That's super interesting. I appreciate you humoring me on that. It. Is I mean I've had the same experience with plenty of people that I meet through an audio medium. One of the things that maybe we can come back to eventually is the reason I reached out to you about this. Now is that it you know. So again, Pierce was relationships are normative. People have the time, but I think that at this moment in history, they might be fulfilling sort of a larger role, immutable social lives when they. 'cause I don't know if you noticed but. Said pandemic. And that's totally changed our social landscape. You know we're not seeing people face to face as much if at all as we used to, and so all of our interactions are taking place in these sort of mediated environments. And people are paying more attention I think and caring more about what happens in mediated environments they actually I was listening to the daily last week and they brought up a similar point along these lines I was like this is pair social relationships. Yeah. It's that Silas in that podcast all the time I don't know if I technically have a pair of social relationship with Michael. Barbaro? Not a big Fan. So I'm like. Nah maybe somebody else. Yeah. That's interesting. I didn't think about the fact that since we're all this is the only way we get most of our socialism socializing. This I've also it's kind of I've known to like somewhat related to this. You know there there are a lot of times where you have like a text relationship with somebody and then we talk them or interact with them or see them or whatever. It's like a whole different feeling. And it can be Super Awkward Yeah. Online dating. I think it's like that if you if you develop a relationship. Largely, through text messages I think is how it used to work other than say GRANDPA I have. Now it's just you swipe and then he a meat or something. So there's nothing. I I don't know about I was I was off the Internet dating before twitter twitter tinder happened. But like back in the day right and you exchange messages people, then you met in real life and it was super weird and awkward and that's how dating should be. God intended. Yeah Yeah. No that's interesting. It's become more of an area of interest in psychology more recently started off as a communications construct. But more recently, some social psychologists sort of picked it up because of that weird realness factor, and so there's been. Quite a bit of research over the past couple of decades about the strange ways in which these relationships are are real. So I thought maybe I could I could give you A. Few examples Oh yes. Some interesting findings there. For example, there's this classic effect in social psychology called. Social Facilitation. Is Basically just an audience effect. So If you're doing a task that super easy or one that is very well learned. It actually turns out that you do it slightly better and slightly more efficiently in front of other people. But you get the opposite effects with a difficult task or one that you haven't learned very well. So an audience makes yours. Yeah. that that was first established in the eighteen hundreds with people and it's been replicated a bunch of times since then and so one study this was by a gardener in Knowles that was published in two thousand eight. They tried to see if they could replicate that effect but with para social relationship partners. And how do that? Yeah. I thought this is Kinda clever. So like in a lot of big research institutions. Getting most of your data from Intersex students right. And a lot of times they'll have like a big mass testing session at the beginning of the semester. Where they just get like a bunch of personality questionnaires and stuff. So these researchers put a question in that mass testing session about people's favorite television character so that they wouldn't have to tip them off later in their actual study than their study had anything to do with television. So they got their favorite character and then you know months later they bring them into the lab for the study that is supposedly about like motor motor coordination. I always wonder who are these people who are doing these Subjects of these experiments I will go my whole life and I've never been the subject of an experiment that I know of seriously. Yeah. Like you take interest like in college or anything no is that what it is it's all well. I. Guess That's what they say. oftentimes, it's always like students in A. In a certain age range who are in these classes that are people are being they're studying than last. Yeah. Okay. And so that's why oftentimes results are a little skewed. That has been a big shift in the past sightsee like ten years. That, there's been a big push to get different populations. But for a long time. Yeah. Psychology was. Humiliated data about intersex students. So yeah, that'd be you'd think that'd be a certain. There'd be skewing effects their. For certain variables certainly. Yeah. Okay. So anyway, they're sly about it on this particular experiment. Yeah. So yeah. So they they bring them in for the motor coordination study and they're having them do a very simple tracing task. and be randomly assigned participants to either do the simple tracing task with their dominant or non dominant hand and so obviously doing it with your dominant hand should be easy trace the lines if you do it with your non dominant hand, that's significantly harder. They also randomly assign them to a to do this in the presence of an image of either their favorite character. During but I've sad I really thought it was gonNA come out like chucky cheese outfit or something like. Celebrity. They picked a limited range of characters that they could do like Disneyland when they have the E or Adam. Okay. So it's Just an image which. That's I mean, what do you think about that? I mean, do you think you get the same? Like even if this experiment works one way or the other, would it also hinge on how much we consider a picture being displayed? You know like how much does that trigger like? Oh, I feel like I'm being watched by this person. I mean I think I think it's a very conservative stimulus. If you get an effect with this, I think that you probably get a stronger if you were Jews something else you know. That's a little more close to the actual interactions of people typically have. But yeah. So so they're either do an easy task or hard task in the presence of either their favorite character or a character that's not their favorite. And they replicate the social facilitation effects people were better on the easy task if they did it in the quote unquote presence of their favorite character and they were worse on the harder task compared to the the people that were in the presence of a non favorite character. and. They did a second study that was paired with it were they. They demonstrated that that affects seemed to be explained by how real favorite characters feel compared to not favored characters interesting. So we're. So why does it matter if you have the para social relationship like when? I think of like Oh if I'm doing something in front of people, it doesn't matter if I know who they are not. because. Those real people than those people are real. But. If we're talking about television characters it's the bond that you form with those characters that would make them feel real to you. and so the presence of of a character that you don't have a bond with is not likely to trigger that sense of being with a real person as much as somebody that you that you do have a social bond with Oh. Okay. Yeah I. Suppose it makes sense but I I, don't I guess I was just thinking like if I see you know if you if you quiz me on like who my favorite whatever is, it doesn't mean that I'm not GonNa also know whoever the other one you put up is kind of thing. That's probably Part of their assumption I think right? Okay. That on average the non favorite character is not somebody that people are going to have social bonds with or at least not consistently right? Okay. So that's cool. So you're saying this was in effect on that they measured that this actually held up under the sensors now. which is weird isn't it? It is weird because it's not a person. It makes me wonder if I need to put up posters of people. In like is there can I can I? Can I do this to help me? You know like posters of. Elliott Smith or something. Am I going to feel like? Okay. Now Elliott wants me to access practice music. Yes. That's how that works. No but for real. Probably. Not It's just tracing something. Just, a few games I ever need to trace something I got to put up a picture and then I'll do better. Got It. I I think that I think that's impure question. You should try that out and collect some data and report back See I guess if I if I'm playing the song I'm comfortable with theoretically I should do it a little better that that's the idea. Okay. I'll try it. Just, some recordings. Flying del. Totally man. No. I'm trying to turn it into a life back. Look I, knew. My Life needs to be hacked I'm trying to find anything I can. Always on the lookout for another hack. Yeah me too. Yeah. So I mean this and the thing about to talk about I, think it just reinforces the point that like. Again, like In some ways, para social bonds feel intuitive because that's how we experienced that again like they're not real and it's real. Weird. Yeah seem to experience them in as real away that we do and I don't know for me like thinking about this from an ego standpoint I, think that it sheds light on like some some basic features of like our social mechanics in ways that could be interesting. Another area of research that that's a little more connected to some of the research that I've started doing recently is on whether para social relationship seems to seem to fulfil belonging needs. This all humans were were part of a very social species ultra social species if you will and. That means that having social bonds. An important social relationships with other people is like a very fundamental need to us like as fundamentalist eating and. Shelter and water, and those kinds of things and so one question is Ben our social relationships actually fulfilling belonging needs to some extent, and so this has been studied in a couple of different ways. But one way that I think is interesting is though they've tried to replicate social restoration effects. So the idea here is that after people are rejected, they suffer all these negative consequences their self esteem suffers and they they get more aggressive, which is kind of interesting. in a variety of things. But then if you remind people after the rejection experienced that they have these important social connections or you actually let them reach out to a friend or a close family member or something and talk to them, then all those negative effects are ameliorated. Yeah. So that's called like a belonging replenishment effect, and so some researchers have tried again to replicate this with para social relationship. So Yeah, pop in the ear buds listen to some. Some guests. Yeah. So they'll bring people in they create a rejection experience and then give people an opportunity to. Dwell. On a relationship with with a favored para social other. So in this specific study, I'm thinking about they said, chooser a celebrity you particularly like in have a close relationship with, and then they just spent a few minutes meditating on what they like best about that person and you know writing a paragraph about them and they found that that they can get the same sort of social replenishment affects with that manipulation as they can with with social. Manipulate imagine if we had no scruples in our human testing if you like a lot like it's amazing the stuff that. People come up with to do these experiments, but it's it's. You know stuff like hang a picture like riding a five era graph. You know it'd be amazing if if I wonder what the results would be if we were allowed are not that we should but or anything but like we're able to do experiments that are a little more direct than this like. Interesting I. Wonder if how big the effects would be what do you have in mind all like you actually get like you know, Bill Murray, to come talk to me. Know are something. The amazing in again, the the chucky cheese cost actually taking it to the next level in terms now, I just I. I know there's good reasons why? We are very careful with even testing, but it is it distracted. It's interesting that they have to come up with all these. Like innovative ways of trying to find these effects and like even though there are a little bit attenuated, is that the word the opposite that in how they're trying to measure these things are still getting effects is just really cool. Yeah I think so too and I think it's important to say that like the paragraph writing thing like that's that's a a manipulation that's been used in other contexts row. Okay. You know it's it's it's validated to produce the experiences that people are writing about at least temporarily. Right. Of course. Yeah. That makes sense that it's almost as though these people have done this before and there's some body of science that they can reference to the lowest like they went to school. Tried to learn how to do stuff. Yeah. With with freshmen. Students. So that belonging this kind of literature is is really the area that I've drilled down into recently an actually you were kind enough in late twenty eighteen to let me recruit some participants from your audience was yeah. Cool. I don't remember that but I we'll soom it was all for the best that I ruined anybody and The are becoming after me? Yeah. They got a warrant. Upset. No actually, the study that I did was totally correlation. So I wasn't doing anything. Weird. With your audience. But Yeah if anybody participated in that. You're about to find out what happened with. That super cool. Yeah. In this paper actually came out. Late last year. So if anybody's interested, I can I can send you a PDF. Oh Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Sending me I'll post it. Yes. So so late twenty, eighteen, do you remember what was happening? How how would you? Dear God. That's all I remember but is there some other thing that? Yeah, there was a Hashtag trending on twitter that is this me too. This might be me too. Okay I. The years have just gone for me like been metoo could have been anywhere from twenty fifteen to now. Yeah. Yeah but yeah. Okay. I, think the only reason I remember that is because we were collecting data. Not Yeah. So so me to was trending and you know Oliver Idols were getting cast against the rocks and I was sitting in my office with my my student at the time Theresa and I was like very sad because all the stuff about Louis CK. Social Relationships Yep Yep land and I was so sad about Louis. CK. To tell you how much I love Lucy Kay how sounded was? And in that moments, a study was born. I thought it would be really interesting to see if we could replicate some of the effects from the interpersonal forgiveness literature, but within para social relationship. So we decided to look at reactions that people were having to these transgressions that were coming out as a function of the pair social bonds that people had with with these various figures in the media. So for the study that I recruited from your audience for we chose just like three specific examples that were kind of across the spectrum on severity. So a cease on. Sorry was one of the three targets. Louis. C. K. was one of them and Kevin Spacey. Was the. Third. One. And so depending on be now we did random assignments to determine who people were answering questions about and we asked them about how close relationship was with that person. We ask them questions about how they perceived the behaviors that they were alleged to have engaged in at the time, and then the the outcome variables we were interested in is. Did did people forgive that behavior and did they want to continue having a pair of social relationship with them so that they continue to feel close with that person. And based on from the interpersonal forgiveness literature we were thinking like. All right. So what typically happens is that were more forgiving of people that we feel close to. Okay and one of the reasons for this in a personally is because we interpret their behavior differently. So a friend something rude I'm more likely to sort of make excuses for that behavior or conceptualize it. In, the. Friendship with person than I am for like a stranger yes. Is it kind of like maybe a motivated reasoning thing like you need this person you know kind of thing like yeah. Okay. Yeah it's. It's both right 'cause our relationships are important in if we just severed them every time you know anybody did anything wrong we wouldn't have any relationships. Yeah. So it's it's definitely a functional mechanism there and so so yeah. So we we were like, okay so we should get. People who had closer bonds with these individuals should be more forgiving now. Is there any possible counteracting effective like? You're like more hurt by something that somebody does if they're closer to you than non. Smokers true. and. I'm sure that there's a ceiling to write like he did something just unspeakably awful if you know. Somebody close to you. I don't think that you're close relationship with is enough to maintain that relationship right but up to a point. Yeah, and to be more forgiving so are we had the number of hypotheses but the in simple terms we thought that people who felt closer before the transgressive behavior would be more likely to forgive it and we thought that the reason for that would be because of how retargeting behavior and we were half right. So. People were more forgiving if they felt closer to the person before they did the thing and they were more likely to say that they felt close to them now. Like, post post the transgressive major, but it didn't actually seem to be a function of how they were interpreting the behavior. So we ask them questions about like you know how severe do you perceive this behavior to be end? Was this person responsible for the behavior? Do you think it was intentional things like that? And we thought that that would explain variance in the relationship between closeness and forgiveness. And it didn't. So it's so they didn't have any different ver. That's interesting. So he didn't there wasn't a correlation between like making excuses or maybe reducing your perception of how bad the things were. It's just that they for some reason still forgave them or somewhat or yeah. So it's it's Kinda complicated right so all of these things had correlations with each other. But it just it in the analysis that we did. It wasn't the case that like the differences in their perceptions of the behavior were the thing that was leading them to feel more forgiving. So. There was something else that was explaining why you know if I felt close to see on sorry I felt more forgiving. If the behavior there was something else going on other than how I was interpreting savior and honestly I'm still not sure what that is. Be. Interested to hear if you have intuitions about that. Okay. Let's say instead of forget the me too for second let's say Some other example in your experiment. Let's say it's like cutting someone off you know with with your car. And you're saying for the person that they had a pair social relationship with vs someone they didn't you were expecting. So like you're expecting that they would still be close to the person and you're expecting the reasoning would be somewhere in the like well cutting someone off with your car's not actually that bad like made the excuses on that level. Whereas that. Yeah. I guess maybe I wouldn't have expected that I don't know because like. For me it feels like it. What kicks in is just this idea of like, wow, this is someone I'm invested in. It's like you're you're kind of invested in their story of like, wow, you know they can do better they can. They can recover whereas win the random person cuts you off you're like, fuck that guy. I don't care you know. So I don't know maybe that's that's Kinda how I would think of it but I think that I think you may be right about that. I mean I it's I guess I. I don't know. Well, what was the timing of asking about their about the offenses? Did you ask them about the offenses in a vacuum not assigning them to the person or did you ask them specifically about like here's what Louis CK did. What do you think of that or kind of thing like did you ask? What or how bad do you view ex action not attached to a person They were specifically about the Targets Oak Oak we we thought that was kind of important because I didn't want to. I was worried about like describing the behaviors in the study in a way that was like leading. So we asked Lake filter questions the beginning that we're like, are you aware of the allegations against these people and then if if they were than they qualify dance answer the questions so right? Yeah. Gotcha. So. When you talk about the correlations. So how did you measure heading measure the other side of it? Like are there? Do you need examples of people they didn't care about that? Did similar things, Yoga. Yeah. That's a great question. So. Essentially. We measured light closeness on a continuous, Gail. So the we had like a set of items asking like how close to you feel to Louis C. K., how connected do you feel? And people score on that closeness measure was our way of measuring the strength of the pair social bond that they had with him. But I see where you're coming from 'cause it's like when something's in the news like I dunno back in the nineties with Bill Clinton it's no coincidence that Democrats are all like, wow, you know at the time I you know. Kind of making excuses for those specific actions. Yeah. and maybe to to bring up a maybe example that'll make my audience feel a little better when you talk about evangelicals and trump. You know like, okay they're they're all about like you need the person in the White, house has to have moral leadership and then trump gets elected and then nobody thinks that that's fine. Yeah. So that's kind of the angle you're coming from that. That would have made more sense to you. They would downplay specific actions, but you're saying, yeah, resort intend to show that they don't really downplay the actions they just there's some sort of either like forgiveness maybe is that what you think it like Y-. Yeah I'm not sure. I, think that you're onto something when you say like. All right I, don't you know this was terrible but like this is still a. Relationship this important or I'm still getting something out of essentially. To me that sounds kind of like your compartmentalizing like what that person's producing from their behavior which I you know maybe that's it I. Don't know. But also just like. I don't know like you're just invested in the story of a person you know like. If if a friend or family member does something wrong like you said earlier, you can't just abandon everyone whoever did something wrong and so therefore, you know there there's that that sort of happening where you're like well, maybe because I still you know not anymore so much. But for like a year, I was like maybe Louis, ck can just actually give a good apology know like maybe can actually do something and then you know you know. Perception Yeah Yeah actually yeah. We did. We did a replication study that paired with this one. We changed a couple of things. But when I think about it, there was that we assess things about people's perceptions of apologies. and that was hugely important writing. So I like I don't I don't WanNa make it sound like you know. That forgiveness relationships depends on excuse making exactly but it does from the interpersonal literature. There's pretty good evidence that it does change your perceptions of things in ways that facilitate relationship maintenance. What changes your relationship of what I might have. Followed a closeness with people in interpersonal sense right in interpersonal relationships like changes, your perception of of offensive behaviors in ways that the do facilitate forgiveness and do facilitate the release did did it in this companion thing? He did it make people feel like an apology was better worse based on how close they are to the person. Yeah, yeah So closeness was positively correlated with. Perceive severe severity perceive sincerity of the apology and did seem to matter. Yeah which makes mean that's pretty intuitive there. No guarantee that like how sincere you judge apology to be really matters in terms of how much you forgiving someone or is the taken for granted did seem to matter okay. Did see Gotcha okay yeah. And You know anecdotally again, like that was that was part of what was hard for me to get over with Lucy as you know he's he's this incredibly insightful self reflective person and then the wavy responded to this was just so against all that the that I couldn't I couldn't separate that from you know the reason that I enjoy to stand up. Thanks I, know it still blows my I'm still mad. It really didn't. He just did it make it feel like he cared at all about the victims at all like it just it was like it was an annoyance to him or something like this thing that happened the now he had to deal with it wasn't like exactly Shit I need to do. Yeah. So anyway, I don't want to go to edge it but. It's interesting. Yeah. But I still I don't know if I would say I feel closest closeness to Louis CK anymore. But like I guess if it was to people who were who were guilty of identical things and one I just did not have any bond with whatsoever. You know I suppose compared to that I would still think like, oh, maybe there's still a tiny chance Louis C. K. wake up and actually do so maybe I would still feel like a little bit more potential forgiveness or something like motivation to yeah it depends on his behavior. Yeah. If he could turn things around right now I wish it's not going to happen. That's super interesting. I'm so glad that. Are My audience took part in that. That's really Yeah Yeah, it was pretty fun I now now that you say something I remember, but I think because like you you didn't have anything like like it took a while before there's anything to share. I kind of forgot about. Player review, they still do that. Yeah Great and just submit this to pay to play journal and you know then funny enough tried as the downfall of Western civilization. Went through like five rounds of Peer Review. This was published. So it was intense. So so do you want to do you want to talk about this trump study because this is a sure let's do Scotland Bang. Yeah. So so this was published by Shira Gabriel and colleagues in two thousand eighteen and they collected data on their questions like immediately after the the outcome of the two thousand sixteen election. That's important. And they they started with the relatively simple assertion I. think that it was kind of surprising that Donald Trump got elected. Yes. and not just a white liberals. I. Don't think I think that even a lot of people who supported by surprising to Donald Trump that he got elected I think you're right Yeah and so they the the research question the that was motivating their study was you know this seems like a weird outcome and so maybe we need to go beyond the normal postmortem of elections to try to understand this and you know Russian interference. Sure. But they were they were taking. A slightly different angle on it, which was is it possible? Donald, trump used to have a reality show I don't know if you knew this. Yes. Yeah. I've I've Win The aforementioned Adam Corolla was on that show I did watch a few episodes. You'll never again because he trump was zero to me. Very clear by the way, this is not just in retrospect I. Never told anybody about this season of celebrity apprentice I. Want I don't think I've ever talked about it other than that. I watched it. And this one season it was so clear who's making everything up as he went along. He was a fraud. There is nothing to Oh my God it's amazing that the the producers created an image of a successful person and trump really did ruin the world they are pretty much entirely responsible for donald trump. Is Present. Amazing. Anyway sides. Oh. All right sure. Yeah. No. So trump has the apprentice and celebrity apprentice and these researchers were wondering like I wonder if the pair social bonds, the people formed with him on during that show. Pet any could predict to their voting behavior. Mardi depressed by this. Yeah. It's GonNa get worse. So they recruited about five hundred people for this for this study, and again, this was very shortly after the election right? So we didn't have that much information about trump as the president yet. Mo. All of the information that we had about him was you know if we watch the apprentice. and also his behavior on the campaign trail right? Okay so they get about five hundred people. And I think it's worth explaining the analytical strategy here a little bit obviously, this is not a a an experiment I wish that it had been a lab experiment, but it wasn't it was correlation analysis of a real thing that happened to our country. But the logic of what they're doing. They're saying, okay, we have pop papa that maybe closer para social bonds with trump would predict likelihood of voting but that relationship could be confounded by a bunch of things right and so they their strategy was to measure and try to statistically account for all this potential confounds. THAT DETROIT? To. Strengthen. The claim that if they find a relationship between the pera social bond and voting behavior that maybe there really is something unique about the pair social bond and it's not just saying the spurious result is something else. So yeah. So if you wanted to predict, you know who joe blow voted for in the two thousand sixteen election like what kinds of variables might be relevant to that. Okay, would you think I mean you? You would think that party affiliation would be a major one or like Sir National. You would hope that like policy would matter but I think I think you and I both know that has nothing to. Warrant is actually our candidates yeah. Yeah and. Like. I just demographic information like how much you you you know see yourself reflected in the candidate I would imagine that some amount of factor I gotta be a of things, right? Sure. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So they they measured a bunch of these those usual suspects. So they measured political beliefs in a few different ways they measured like you know how much do you identify as liberal? Do you identify as conservative? How strongly are you affiliated with the Republican Party and the Democrat Party and so on. They also asked like past voting behavior as a more objective metric, right? You know support for a party they also measured I. Thought This was interesting. They measured political cynicism. was definitely very relevant to help trump ran his campaign, right? Don't trust. Yes it was. So they measure that. And they also got a variety of demographic things that might be relevant here like income level, education level, and things like that. And then on top of all of those things. They measured para social bonds with trump and the questions that they were asking were specific to the apprentice. So they were things like win trump was on the apprentice I felt great about him. You know I thought trump was a great guy on the apprentice thing. Is there any way? Like. Are they do we know if they're reverse engineering that like can we tell if you? Feel that way because they later like trump and then kinda revise their memory about it or it's a it's a good question, right? Because this is retrospective, there's not really any way to evaluate that is not a great way. For But But yeah I mean they. So they assess that and they also assess like attitudes now so. There is a way that if you're if you're accounting for that in your analysis that if it is retrospective sort of show up there, right? But you're right I. mean this is an inherent limitation of yeah ereck. So hypothetically, that could really mess up your like if were true that everybody like rewrites their memory based on. Like this guy now. So naturally, I must have loved the show or something must have loved him on the show if that were true that would kinda messed up a little bit but maybe that's where I think I think it's very fair to say that our our members are not perfect and then they are influenced by subsequent events. But at the same time, I totally remember that I used to really really love Louis CK. That's true. Good Point. Yeah. So yeah. Okay. So yeah. So pair social bonds trump they measured that and then they also measured like a couple of control things there too. So they measured just like basic familiarity with trump. To make sure that wasn't it and they measured like media consumption in general right. So maybe just people who watch TV more also more likely to watch the apprentice and you know we're more likely to see his campaign ads or something. Okay. So they measured all of these things. And what they did in the analysis was like build a predictive model using all of these different variables. So if you imagine that you start with Lake political ideology and he that to predict voting behavior, you're definitely going to do a better job than just like a fifty fifty coin flip in terms of predicting who somebody voted for. If I remember all my studies that came out predicting who voted for for Donald Trump it turned out like racism was the big racism and sexism were like the biggest factors law set that aside I guess they should have they should have accounted for racism. Yeah. So but but still like ideology should be should get you to like a better than chance place and yeah. Who who they voted for right so You got that variable I and then you add say party affiliation on top of ideology, and that'll make your prediction a little bit better right than just with ideology alone you got an income it gets a little bit better and so on and so forth and so the question is when we add the pera social bond on top of all those other things do we still get added unique predictive value from the pair social bond and if we do then it's unlikely that like conservatives were just more likely to watch the apprentice and that's the ship. It it's really something unique. At. So they did this and they did in fact, find that the pair social bonds that people form during the apprentice. Uniquely, predicted their likelihood of having voted for him. Their current attitudes toward him at the positivity of them they're likely of believing his campaign promises, which again, they didn't know yet whether he would do that he. Didn't have any information about him as an actual president and their probability of believing what the researchers called his controversial statements think that you and I would probably say his lies. Yeah but it The pair's relationship predicted. They're likely believing his lies right now. and to me again. This makes time since this is the kind of crap that we do with our friends and other people that we can. have good relationships with and it is so dangerous and how it manifests in this context right? Because like again, it makes sense for me to if my friend is rude to me, it makes sense for me to look at that behavior and say, I, still like my friend that's not representative of her. She's probably having a bad day that make sense. But the differences that I have actual information about my friend. And from watching the apprentice like what? What is more manufactured artificial than watching somebody in a reality TV show. Yeah and that was your point at the beginning of US right. Like it's such an artificial narrative that you're getting. So that's yeah that is potentially one of the most dangerous things. About this is very interesting I. You know, I'm just trying to think like it's but it wouldn't be as though like every relation para social relationship would be positive right? Yeah, that's true yeah. A lot of times with these studies they're they're implicitly measuring sort of positive bonds. That's an important thing to say. So all the questions were like I really enjoyed it. When I saw trump on the apprentice things like there's always the villain in reality shows to usually like there's the I don't watch a lot of reality TV I'm a bad example of this but I know that frequently, if it's anything like wrestling which I also don't watch, there's a he'll that people love to hate like. I, wonder how that separate topic but I wonder like what kind of para social relationship is that? Would they be more likely to like not at all trust the person than someone they didn't know or or would like the positive associational feelings or something still go with a with a weird negative relationship I, don't know. Yeah I have a feeling that if it if it really is a villain that will bleed over into people's actual judgments person even if again they know, oh, my gosh. There's a great episode of Thirty Rock where Jack Donna. Girlfriend's mom thinks. They. have him play You know, of course, vowed Baldwin being para social relationships that might be doing. He he like it turns out her mom just hates him and it's because the soap opera she watches is you know it's obviously just him also playing the soap opera villain but like we're supposed to believe that it looks just like him you know don't like. So the villain and the soap operas just Alec Baldwin says she hates him and. Reminding? Yeah So that could be that could happen yeah. Yeah. I really think so. I think that the what I get from all of this literature is that were applying social perception to these relationships in ways that are probably misplaced or at least they're not functioning the way that they were designed to. but there's they're operating that way anyway. Yeah. Definitely something to be aware of I think. Yeah. No kidding. All right note to self. Don't make trump out to be a successful businessman. On a show. Don't do that that. Oh my gosh that is super fascinating. I can't believe the time has already flown by that. That was amazing. I you know is really nice to do like a get old fashioned science. He episode I haven't done in a while probably because the world fell apart and. Mainly talking about politics and stuff, but that was really interesting. Thanks for taking US through studies. Thanks. Thanks for developing, we all have a little bit more of a social social relationship with Lindsay Ostrom and Oh. Hey Mom throughout your plugs you're doing a podcast now, right? Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Me and my friend Sarah are doing a podcast about books. We've been reading a lot of fun books and talking about them. It's called we're on the same page. And that yeah, it's it's a nod to the fact that she and I have been friends for like fifteen years and we agree with each other too much but. Except, sometimes anyway so we're on the same page it's should be available in all the different pod catchers. Search out everybody that that's delightful. I hope that. Some people will go forma form of. Actually. My. Things that you just said, and then you didn't say them wonder what they're talking about. My husband says that he actually feels weird. Now he listens and he feels like he also has a pair of ood. Ethics there. Yeah. I can't even begin. Technically cheating, I think. It's not mean. Hot Gasman. Good. Times thanks so much for coming on check out the show. We're on the same page and thanks again for taking us through that. Those really fascinating. Thank you. Own. Thank you so much for listening to serious inquiries. Only if you like the show, the absolute best thing you can do is support us at Patriot, dot com slash serious pod. The second best thing you can do is please share it on social media or by word of mouth speaking social media. If you'd like to follow Jamie on twitter, she's at Utha Fro and follow me at serious pod if you'd like facebook friends Samir. Request at FACEBOOK DOT com slash Thomas podcast if you're not up for that level of intimacy that's fine. Maybe you WANNA. Join the discussion at facebook dot com slash groups slash S I o members. Thank you again for listening we'll see next time

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