20 Episode results for "People's Republic"
BONUS: Richard Nixon's Remarks upon Returning from People's Republic of China | February 28, 1972
"Uh in february one thousand nine hundred seventy two president richard m nixon shocked the world when he traveled to the people's republic of china remember china had been closed off for over two decades from the rest of the world in many saw them as espousing a radical version of communism one. That was even more dangerous than that espoused. By the soviet union restored. Nixon had risen to the presidency with a reputation as a stern anti-communist and yet he became the first american president to visit the people's republic of china. It was a historic moment. As the leader of the world's most powerful capitalist democratic country met mao zedong the communist dictator of the most populous country in the world by this time the former anti-communist firebrand richard nixon. now saw himself as a statesman. who would usher in a new era of peace. He had said in his first inaugural address that the greatest title that history could bestow was that of peacemaker and when richard nixon returned from the people's republic of china he believed that he had attained that very title. In this speech. Richard nixon had just returned from china and arrived at andrews air force base and was greeted by a crowd and vice president spiro. Agnew he is at the peak of his diplomatic power and at the pinnacle of his presidency. As you listen to the speech think about how president richard nixon believed that he was ushering a new age of peace. An a new foreign policy for the united states one based on realism and co existence with the communist powers. Many of america's is in the region like taiwan and japan were concerned that president nixon's opening to china would mean a reduced commitment from the united states. Listen to how. President nixon tries to assuage their fears. And reinforce america's commitment to its allies and also listened to the optimism about the new relations between the united states and china. I can't help but thinking about modern day developments with china and how these remarks look in hindsight with what's happened between the united states and china in recent years. Enjoy the show you want over two hundred ninety channels eighty thousand on demand titles into record up to sixteen shows at once. Are you searching for a reliable tv provider. That has all your favorite shows. Look no further than dish tv dishes. Setup is also integrated with netflix amazon prime and youtube. So you can switch between with ease and watch on your time. Plus a free voice remote in dvr's included with your dish service dish has also been ranked number one in customer satisfaction by j.d. Power for three straight years if you're interested in dish tv visit. Www dot dish dot com. That's www dot dish dot com dish tuned into you. This episode is brought to you by hp plus in a world full of smart devices. Shouldn't your printer be smart to it. Is with hp plus these printers know when they're running low so you always get the inky meat delivered right when you needed. Plus you save up to fifty percent on inc so you can print whatever you want as much as you want anytime you want. Let is pretty smart. Get six months of instant inc when you choose. Hp plus conditions apply visit hp dot com slash smart for details february twenty eighth nineteen seventy-two andrews air force base maryland president. Richard nixon's remarks upon returning from the people's republic of china. Mr vice president members of the congress members of the cabinet members of the diplomatic corps. Ladies and gentlemen. I want to express my very deep appreciation. the ration- of all of us for this wonderful warm. Welcome that you've given us and for the support that we have had on the trip that we just completed from americans of both political parties in all walks of life across this land and because of the superb efforts of the hard-working members of the press will company us. They got even less sleep than i did. Millions of americans in this past week have seen more of china than idea. Consequently tonight i would like to talk to you about what we saw but about what. We did to sum up the results of the trip and to put it in perspective. When i announced this trip last july i described it as a journey for peace. In the last thirty years americans have in three different war off the hundreds of thousands to fight and some the died in asia under the one of the central motives behind my journey to china was to prevent that from happening a fourth time to another generation of americans. As i've often said peace means more than the mirror absence of war in a technical sense we were at peace with the people's republic of of china before this track but a gulf of almost thousand miles and twenty two years of non-communication and hostility separated the united states of america from the seven hundred and fifty million people who live in the people's republic of china. And that's one fourth of all the people in the world. As a result of this trip we have started the long process of building a bridge across that goal. And even now we have something better than the mere absence of war. Not only have. We completed a week of intensive talks at the highest levels. We have set up a procedure whereby we can continue to have discussions in the future. We have demonstrated that nations with very deep and fundamental differences can learn to discuss those differences calmly rationally and frankly without compromising their principles. This is the basis of a structure for peace where we can talk about differences rather than fight about. The primary goal of this trip was reestablish communication with the people's republic of china after generation of are still we achieve that goal. Let me turn out to our joint communicate. We did bring back. Any written or unwritten agreements that will guarantee peace in our time. We do not bring home any magic formula which will make unnecessary efforts of the american people to continue to maintain the strength so that we can continue to be free. We made some necessary and important beginnings however in several we entered a new agreements to expand cultural educational and journalistic contacts between the chinese. And the american people. We agreed to work to begin and broaden trade between our two countries. We have agreed that the communications that have now been established between our governments will be strengthened and expanded most important. We have agreed on some rules of international kahn which will reduce the risk of confrontation and war in asia and in the pacific. We agreed that we are opposed the domination of the pacific area by any one power. We agree that international dispute should be settled without the use of a threat of force and we agreed that we are prepared to apply this principle to our mutual relations with respect to taiwan stated are established policy. Got our forces. Overseas will be reduced gradually as tensions ease and at our ultimate objective is to withdraw forces as a peaceful settlement is a chain. We've agreed that we will not negotiate the faint of other nations behind their backs and we did not do so. It became there. Were no secret deals of any kind. We have done all this without giving up any united states commitment to any other country in our talks talks. I had with the leaders of the people's republic that the secretary of state had with the office of the government of the people's republic in the foreign affairs area. We both realized that a bridge understanding that spans almost twelve thousand miles and twenty two years in about stability can't be built in one week of discussions but we have agreed to begin to build that brand recognizing that our work will require years of patient after we made no attempt to pretend that major differences did not exist between our two governments because they do exist. This communique was unique in honestly setting forth differences rather than trying to cover them up with diplomatic. Double talk one of the gifts that we left behind on job was planted. Sapling of the american redwood tree as all californians no and most americans know redwoods grow from saplings into the giants in the forest but the process is not one of days or even years it is a process of centuries just as we hope that those saplings those tiny saplings that we left in china will grow one day the mighty redwoods so we hope to that. The seeds planted on this journey for peace will grow and prosper into a more enduring structure for peace and security in the western pacific but peace. Peace is to urgent to wait. For centuries we must seize the moment to move toward that goal now and this is what we have done on this journey as i am sure you realize it was a great experience for us to see the timeless wonders of ancient china. The changes that are being made in modern trend and one fact stands out among many others from my talks with chinese leaders. It is their total belief their total dedication to their system of government. That is their right. Just as is the right of any country that choose the kind of government at once. But as i return from this trip justice has been the case on my return from other trips abroad. Which have taken me to over eighty countries. I come back to america with an even stronger faith in our system of government. I flew across america today. All the way from alaska over the rockies the planes and then onto washington i thought of the greatness of our country and most of all i thought of the freedom the opportunity the progress that two hundred million americans are privileged to enjoy. I realized again. This is a beautiful country and tonight my prayer. My hope is that as a result of this trip our children will have a better chance to grow up and peaceful. Were thank you. Since we launched this american president in two thousand seventeen spent countless hours of effort to bring you compelling stories and lessons from history. We want to keep giving you the best content possible. And we need your help to do it if you feel like. You've benefited from listening to our episodes. We hope you'll consider becoming a patron of our podcast. Our patrons empower us to access the best scholarly resources improve our production quality and expand our reach across the nation again. You can help us out by going to patriot dot com slash this american president and signing up. This american president is produced by myself. Richard lim and michael neale. If you like what you've been hearing you can help us by leaving us. A five star review on apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to our show. We are proud partner of evergreen podcasts. Checkout evergreen podcasts dot com for more shows you might enjoy. i'm richard lim. We're back next time with more this american president.
People's Republic of China Formed / 30 September Movement assassinated Indonesian army generals - October 1
"Laurie Hernandez is making her voice heard y'all have very big voice and we plan on using it. Now, why are you voting and how are you going to make sure your vote is counted. There are lots of questions this year like how to register vote by mail and how to safely vote in person. That's why facebook created the. Voting. Information Center get information from election authorities and experts at facebook dot com slash both both senator, and don't miss the new podcast from iheartradio in facebook called. Why am voting iheartradio's WAM voting countdown to election day. Your vote is your voice. At target each item you put in your car brings more good to life. Like a coffee brand that opens more is to black business natural laundry detergent that puts a lighter load on the planet wheelchair. Friendly Halloween costumes that said, make the lead in motion and make up a celebrates beauty and every shade here. The good you want is always within reach because at target we believe in good we can all afford. Hello everyone. It's Eve's checking in here to let you know that you're going to be hearing two different events in history in this episode one for me and went from Tracy Wilson, they're both good if I do say so myself on with the show. Welcome to this day in history class from how stuff works dot com, and from the desk of stuff you missed in history class. It's the show where we explore the past one day at a time with a quick look at what happened today in history. Hello and welcome to the PODCAST. I'm Tracy Be Wilson and it's October first on this day in nineteen, forty, nine Mazda Dong. The People's Republic of China Mao Zedong was born in Hunan. Province on December twenty, six, eighteen, ninety three, and at that point China was still under imperial rule the emperor advocated in one, thousand, nine, twelve following a revolution when now is? He trained as teacher for a time before working at a university library in Beijing and he became interested in Marxism, and then in nineteen twenty one, he became a founder member of the Chinese Communist Party or the CCP between one, thousand, nine, hundred, twenty, three, and nineteen, forty nine. The CCP was sometimes allied with, but sometimes at war with. Party the coming Tang Nationalist Party or KMT the. CPI and the CAM t united to drive warlords out from northern China and fight Japan during the second Sino Japanese war and that ran from one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, nine, hundred, forty, five. But between those two events and before and after they were not united, they were adversaries. After the Sino, Japanese war ended the CCP and the KMT went to war against each other and the CCP one that is when on October first of nineteen forty, nine Mao founded the People's Republic of China, at this point China was very poor. It was a mostly agrarian nation that was covering for him years and years of warfare at first the government's primary goal of this newly established People's Republic of China was just to recover from the war there was widespread damage to both the nation's. And Industrial Systems. They got support in this from the Soviet. Union and they followed the Soviet Union's model my how to modernize industry and the economy in the process of all this modernization recovery. China moved from a capitalist supply and demand model to a socialist bottle and China nationalized a lot of its industries by Nineteen fifty-six. Virtually all of the major industries in China were either state owned or joint public private enterprises, and then by nineteen fifty seven, almost all of China's. Part. Of Collective. And a lot of ways, these first five years were a success. There were good harvests. There were a lot of modernizations. People got better farm equipment, that sort of thing. But at the same time, all of these modernizations really strained the Chinese economy there's good harvests were paired with a population boom. So while the harvests were bigger, there were also more. People to feed all the improvements propelled the nation forward faster than the agriculture and the infrastructure could keep up the government had achieved its goals but the people of China. A lot of times felt like they were not better off than before and this led to the first of many attempts at wide-scale reforms that Chairman Mao implemented while he was really China. These were often efforts to completely change the People's Republic of China and the way it's government worked the Chinese government under house. The dog built new hospitals and schools and funded new scientific and medical research and the life expectancy in China increased from thirty five years in nineteen, forty, nine to sixty, five years one, thousand, nine, hundred. But so so many of the attempted reforms did a lot more harm than good. Mouths. Rule over the People's Republic of China was marked by extensive campaigns for modernization and improvement, but also with massacres and famines and purges and. So. Rest and the widespread destruction of Chinese works of Art Architecture and culture in one thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, one there was an attempted coup and an attempt house dogs life he died on September ninth of nine, hundred, seventy six you can learn more about China under chairman. Mao In the twenty fourteen, four part series from Steffi missed in history class including. The great leap forward on September first the great famine on September eighth and the two parts on the Cultural Revolution on September fifteenth and Seventeenth. All of that again is in twenty fourteen. Thanks to Terry Harrison for her audio work on this podcast, and you can subscribe to this day in history class on apple podcasts, Google podcast and wherever else get your podcast. Tomorrow for a massacre. What's it like to drive the Volvo xc ninety plug in hybrid? The thrill of four hundred horsepower t eight twin engine. The Joy. Of Impromptu road travesty. And Serenity. Of Electric Power Impure ECO mode. Visit a DMV Volvo retailer today to experience the xc ninety recharge plug in hybrid for yourself. I install I found on the arrogance curse in. Its eyes are just very lifelike. Then what does it Ted? Keep. Spin. Scary Really scary missing out on GEICO's easy to use mobile APP. You can manage your fico policy. Why never ever? Looks play with another doll. ooh Can just bury it deep in the ground happy gyco Wean, download the industry-leading GEICO APP today. Welcome to this day in history class where we bring you a new tidbit from history every day. Today was October first nineteen, sixty five. A group of Indonesian National Armed Forces members killed fix high-ranking Indonesian generals in a failed coup in Jakarta. The army linked the assassinations to Indonesia Communist Party, and for the next several weeks, the military detained and killed hundreds of thousands of communists, alleged communists and their sympathisers. The coup led to Indonesia's first. President. Sukarno being put on house arrest and General Harto being appointed to the presidency. President Sukarno had begun promoting system of guided democracy since he believed parliamentary democracy was ineffective in Indonesia. As, he began implementing a form of socialist populism he attempted to balance relations with the military communist and religious groups. He supported the Indonesian Communist Party and the army which was largely anticommunist though many in the military did support communism. Land reforms which the communist party pressured Sukarno to. For a major source of tension between the party Muslim religious leaders and the people who controlled the lanes. As Indonesian, Communist Party, gained more influence seeds of doubt grew among army members who were suspicious of the party's intentions and religious groups who were unsure of the party's views. Sukarno became more anti-imperialist and championed economic independence for Indonesia. But the economy declined due to a lack of effective policy. Western nations encouraged anticommunist efforts against the Indonesian, Communist, party Sukarno and the left. In nineteen, sixty, five, the Indonesian Communist Party had three million members and was the third largest communist party in the world. But by this time, there were rumors that senior army generals were planning a coup against the cardinals. And the early morning hours of October I the thirtieth September movement kidnapped and murdered fix of Indonesia's top military generals. The movement members announced over the radio that they had seized power to protect the president and forbid a military coup. The leader of the movement. Lieutenant Colonel in tune told listeners that the president will say that generals had been arrested and that there was about to be a new revolutionary government. But the coup was quickly the army claimed that the Communist Party was responsible for the coup attempt at the time there was not much evidence that the party had any involvement in the action against the military. But General Suharto Commander of the army strategic reserve capitalized on anticommunist intimate and quickly launched propagandistic attacks against communists. He shut down a communist and leftist publications while pro army publications flourished. The PRO army press circulated stories that the murder generals had been tortured and mutilated. Through this campaign, the army inflamed anticommunist feelings, and convinced people that the party was complicit in a huge conspiracy. The military took the opportunity to eliminate the political power of communism in Indonesia which it perceived as a threat. The army police and civilian militias. And killed communist and their supporters into Carta Central, and East Java and Bali as well as parts of other islands. The death toll has been estimated at at least half a million people. It was later discovered that some leaders in the Indonesian Communist Party did play a role in planning the coup, but most people in the party did not know about it. There are many conspiracy theories around exactly who planned the thirtieth September movement and what its goal was. The Communist Party was banned in Indonesia in nineteen sixty five and has been ever since along with any public discussion of the massacre. The military dictatorship that soon took over led by Suharto rolled Indonesia until nineteen ninety, eight with Western support. Indonesia became pro-western and the downfall of communism and Indonesia benefited capitalist country. I'm Eve code and hopefully you know a little more about history today than you did yesterday. If bear any upcoming days in history that you'd really like me to cover on the show. Give us a shout on social media at teased. I Eight PODCAST. We'll see you here in the same place tomorrow. For more podcasts from iheartradio visit, the iheartradio APP apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Welcome to teach me something new a podcast from iheartradio in Britain. On your host Sprint Martin, I'm an entrepreneur, a C. l.. A MOM and I'm curious about a lot of things we've already learned so much together and I can't wait for what's next my co host and best engine are back with brand new episodes every Wednesday. Listen to teach me something new on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Regardless. Of how you vote I. Urge Each of you to vote in a democracy. The right to vote is the most powerful nonvolatile. We have all of us in America heavy, duty To vote go. Vote voting. We're supposed to know how this works right after all. It's the cornerstone of our democracy at the ballot box everyone has to say. But the reality of how voting works in America and who gets to do. It is not as spare or clear cut as we like to tell ourselves long lines and confusion polling place and other members of the Turtle Mountain tribe were turned away from the pools and tonight a backlog of undelivered mail is up in post offices. Train. I'm Katie couric, and this is turn out a podcast exploring America's voting record. As long as there's been a right to vote, there have been waste to suppress it. So we're gonNA talk about it. Talk about the ways voters have been kept out of the system and how to ensure that everyone can participate in our democracy fine turn out on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
The future of Canadas relationship with China
"Come, journey across the globe in an immersive storytelling podcast with film maker, Salim Russian Walla on pin-drop from tat this season checkout musicians trying to save an indigenous language in Lima. What happens to the Tourism Paradise Rapanui also known as Easter Island when people stopped showing up and explore what it means to start a black utopia you can listen to pin-drop wherever you get your podcasts. This is. podcast Eileen making tonight, Mr. Premature. Hardened with the agreements we have reached. Chaired by the frankness and fullness of our discussions grateful for the hospitality. Party. Former Prime Minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau at the end of his historic trip to the People's Republic of China in Nineteen, seventy three. It was the first official visit to the country by a Canadian. Prime Minister and today in fact, marks fifty years since Canada formerly recognize the People's Republic. Of China at the time it was a highly controversial move. The US did not recognize the. Regime in Peking as it was known then and its leadership was not seated at the United Nations. My next guest was a young Canadian diplomat during the fateful negotiations that led to that joint declaration he went on to serve as a Canadian ambassador for fifteen years including to Russia the UK and the European Union Jeremy Kinsman me from Victoria British Columbia Jeremy Kinsman Good Morning. Take us back to that summer of sixty nine when the. Going years standout don't they. This is one we're living through now nineteen, sixty, eight, nine, nineteen, sixty, nine, we're extraordinary years you know that was. Not. Just a great cultural revolution going on in China I mean it was the assassinations in the United States or cities were burning. the Russians the union invaded Prague. There was as in Monto May and in France the whole kind of landscape of the world seemed to be unraveling. Of course, the summer of sixty nine when I was in Stockholm during that the beginning of the negotiations It was also Neil. Armstrong getting to the moon. So it wasn't all bad news, but it was a time of extraordinary change. What do you remember about those negotiations? Well, I remember it was very fraught I mean Canada was breaking some ice at have been frozen for some time on who who was actually the legitimate government of China. and then, and then just when people were getting coming around to recognize the the obvious fact, eight, hundred, million people that China were controlled by the government in Beijing. But we weren't we weren't alone in wanting to do this I mean Ah Belgium in Italy where we're contemplating does well into Gaul had done. So in nineteen, sixty four, but people were looking to us to how was GonNa work what the former though would be. Particularly with respect to Taiwan it because it was obviously going to set some kind of a template for the future for other people to do the same thing, what was the thinking behind taking that step? Well, the thinking was that logic compelled recognition of the fact that the government of aging was the government of China. And the United Nations membership was was pretty rapidly coming to that conclusion in Canada. It was Pierre Trudeau I I don't think it was logical in any respect it was pragmatic. He just felt that It was the logical thing to do. The talks are headed. Well, they're happening in the shadow of the Cultural Revolution millions died in that and I just wonder was there concern that recognizing this regime would be seen as a some sort of tacit endorsement of what happened when you say the shadow actually it was winding down by then not Actually the world didn't know that much about what was going on in China. There are so few foreigners in China at that time. And so we know now we didn't know then but in any event, the important thing is Canada and most most countries followed the kind of British model of recognition of of diplomatic relations. There's no morality. It's simply a question of does this government have control of the country? And if so, you need to have diplomatic relations with governments that exist. You don't exclude some because you don't like him you need to have them. Though that that was the premise. Of sabotage these negotiations what was going on in the background and there's a lot of That's why I went there I was a kid in. Brussels. In, between NATO and and our fledgling mission to to the European Common Market and I got set up there to try and lend a hand to figure out what what was going on with all this These these little disruptions you know people were Turning up facsimiles of replica of Canyon Telegrams from our embassy that refers to the Chinese just seat full and and derogatory things like that and who knows who was. Putting these out. I mean I could have been obviously the nationalist government Anti WanNa could have been. The Americans it could have been lots of people other stuff was happening. We had a guy come over, of course, these negotiations, fourteen sessions of drinking tea with the Chinese negotiator over a period of well over a year, and they were kind of the talk of the town in Stockholm and so Canadian visitors were watched with a lot of scrutiny and curiosity interest and and they were all involved in this I. Mean there was one guy came over from external affairs. He was a decorator for a new residents radium bachelor. And he got mad at the airport by black limousine and a guy, a black suit and holding up a card but his name and drove him into town, but he didn't get to town. He got hold out of the car and beaten up halfway in what was that about you know, and these were just efforts to disrupt to intimidate to bother to. There was definitely hostility to monitor part of some to the change that this would represent fast forward fifty years there has been a real cooling of relations between Canada and China the new. Conservative leader Erno tool has called on this country to take a much harder line and a much different approach to dealing with China. What do you make of that approach? Oh, you know it's a cycle I. China has changed a change with we Xi Jinping we we all know that he reasserted an awful lot more political control in China, and that. Bothers us a lot They've been a you know aggressive economically and expanding their influence. There's nothing wrong expanding your influence I mean everybody's trying to do that. But, they're accused of doing it by you know amount of of bullying and And and they've been just enormously successful. They're so successful challenging united. States for primacy economically in the world part of that part of that, what people would call bullying scooping up to Canadians and Michael, covert Michael, staffer. Chinese prisoners. Yeah. I would say that yes. But that was in direct response to what they consider are scooping up laying Manju at Y VR, on behalf of the United States unilateral application of their law on on Iran what the Chinese did in in reprisal was grotesque no question about it. So in late in light of what you call grotesque, what should candidates relationship with China be now China's a fact. I. Mean it's there. It's it's about to be the biggest economy in the world. If we're going to succeed in the world, we gotta have a relationship with that country. We don't like our values are challenged. By stuff they're doing right now in Hong Kong. It's not good what they're doing to the weavers their constant hostility to bet you know it goes on and on but the world needs China to be part of a agreements in the world that are countering the real threats whether it's a climate change or damage or you name it, and so we got to cooperate in that sense at the same time we compete with an economically and at the same time as we contest some of the things that are doing the challenge universal understandings or semi universal understanding. So Human Rights Canada hold any cards and that. I I. Don't Canada's Canada's got to behave as a state I think Joe Biden is going to win in November third and it's going to be a little easier maybe even with China we'll see but I'm not saying it's GonNa be a Lovey Dovey of course not I think that but it's GonNa be. It's GonNa be better all around. The United States is going to lead democracies and challenging some things. About the way, China is behaving. It's going to be obviously an awful lot more effective. If Not Donald Trump doing it, I was GonNa say just wonder whether that relationship between Canada and China can be anywhere close to normal while those Canadians remain in prison there. No, it can't we have to solve that. Jeremy Kinsman. It's a real pleasure to talk to you. You have some fascinating stories about what happened fifty years ago and where we may go in the next year. Thank you. Thank you met Jeremy. Kinsman was a young diplomat Jerry negotiations for Canada to recognize the People's Republic of China. He served as ambassador to Russia and the EU as well as the High Commissioner in London. He smashed pretty much every billboard and streaming record that matters. It has already been streamed more than a billion times. People still to this day point to this is the moment everything changed. But whether you agree with those claims are not this podcast isn't really about him either you're not an astute businessman or you're inherently racist when it comes to black music and his country this is not a drake podcast available now on CBC listen or wherever you get your podcasts. From CBC PODCASTS and the Fifth Estate brainwashed is a multi burn investigation into the as experiments in mind control from the Cold War and M. K. ultra to the so called war on terror, we learn about a psychiatrist who used his patients as human guinea pigs and what happens when the military and medicine collide listen to brainwashed on the CBC listen APP or wherever you get your podcasts. My next guest has worked hard over her thirty seven year career in government to advance the relationship between Canada and China. But now she has become an increasingly vocal critic of the she regime. Margaret mcquaid Johnson is a senior fellow at the University of Ottawa with China Institute at the University of Alberta. Margaret Good morning to you. We just heard Jeremy Kinsman described the fanfare and the drama. Canada and China establishing relations. Fifty years ago. Is this an anniversary worth celebrating? no as long as. Canadians are being held hostage and four more with execution sentences given to them. I don't think there's anything to celebrate and that's really tragic Certainly, Pierre Trudeau was absolutely right to recognize China in nine nineteen seventy was reflecting the reality at that time and Canada has been a friend of China for decades part of the reform and opening up in the nineteen eighties and and the big annual team Canada visits that prime minister, credit u ladd in the nineteen nineties. but no we've seen a lot of changes in China under Xi Jinping in the last five years I would say it's really dramatically changed its role but the kidnapping of our Canadians was really the last straw for many Canadians including myself candidates, I wanNA talk about that in a moment. But just briefly Canada's ambassador did manage to get these virtual concert visits with Michael Corrigan Michael's power over the weekend. The first time that they had news from the outside world after months of isolation is that an encouraging sign? Well it's It's it's. Dealing, with a big hole that we had in our relationship in terms of no consular visits at all the coronavirus has really left China. So the fact that we can't have in person meetings is still a big problem and they deserve to have in person meetings but you know our ambassador's been very strong in putting forward all of these points he went himself to done done to try to see Michael Spa for and. Try to get in by being right on the spot. That was a terrific idea didn't work but but you know it's it's great for the families that we that we saw the virtual visit last weekend But that's there's certainly a long way to go in the relationship to try to address the problems that we've got now you call this kidnapping why was the detention of Michael covered Michael savage such a turning point for you? Well, it's completely unjust and you know it's in retaliation obviously poor the arrest of Manuel and Joe and You know this is this is a hostage taking that We are certainly not just seeing by ourselves. Other countries have been facing this to You know like Taiwan Australia Japan, they all have people. Hostage Right now So we're not alone and in fact, prime minister thanked President Trump just on Saturday for his attempts to have the immediate release oath my the Michaels, and it's really hitting home because Beijing has instructed us to stop trying to get other countries to help us they don't like. Being called out on their abnormal behavior, you are in Shanghai at the time. Did you worry about your own safety? Well. Yes. I was in Shanghai and my own locked suitcases in my hotel room were searched and I was talking to a Chinese national at a meeting about the fact that our people had been kidnapped and he said Oh well, China's got a list of one hundred Canadians that they can pick up and interrogated any time and when I got back to Canada I I heard, yes there is such a list from from a number of people. Now, what other country does this? You know this is not an appropriate strategy for international relations. Should there be. Critical of China kidnapping. People and the mass arrest of Human Rights Defenders I've spoken out against wall way and five G. and so under China's new National Security Law for Hong Kong I'm now at risk of being extradited to China to stand trial if I happen to fly through one of the fifty five countries have an extradition agreement with China and So you know this is this is a far-reaching strategy that China now has to Anyone who is critical should there be. Given the these two men in particular that are being held and people say that this is being done and directly because Canada has detained the while we executive Joe should there be some sort of prisoner swap John Manley. The former deputy prime minister is among those saying let her go and that will you urge China to release these two men that's something candidate should even consider. Well, in fact, this is what? Beijing is counting on their counting non-canadians to pressure government to send her home and the fact that prominent Canadians are doing. It is the icing on the cake for them and we we all want our citizens returned to us. You know I never gave an interview before last year when I started to speak out because somebody's got to speak out against his behavior, but it doesn't mean we should sell our. Souls and Kowtow is lowest possible by sending her home that would just teach China to take more hostages whenever it wants a country to fall into line on anything and some countries have caved in past and that's why China continues to do it I think they're finding now that candidate isn't going to cave in and we're working with other countries to call China. I would on its action there are Chinese Communities across this country and many Chinese Canadians have watched the worsening relations between our country and China with with dismay our producer and penman caught up with bill ye over dim-sum invent couvert billy came to Canada from count on, which is now known as Guangzhou as a teenager went on to become the first Chinese Canadian elected to Vancouver City Council, later, a provincial court judge how listened to what he had to say. As far as I can remember, Chinese. Have always. had a very good view of Canadians. Because the story about Dr Nomin Perfume. When he? helped. Many Chinese people. At a time of need. He was a Chinese rule. When. I laid a telegraph of young Chinese Canadians to visit. China in one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, four. We had a huge reception and the way they described his. Friends from. Home of Dr Nominee but. We got the red carpet treatment. So to me it's very. Important. I want as a Canadian. To improve. The relation. Ship between the people. Of the two countries as well. because. By increasing trade I think both countries would benefit. It's Too, bad at this point in time. The relationship between the two countries are not. Dispatched as my. With it most most challenging times. But. I am optimistic that in the future when. The political. Problems that we're facing would eventually be resolved. And The friendship between out two countries. Will continue to flourish. We don't have to think alike. As long as you have their mutual respect. Obviously. A country with the kind of population at the time difficulties. have run to different from us. Also acknowledge the fact that our system is not perfect look at homelessness that we have. Looked at the. Drug addictions that we have. Look at. Many of the out deficiencies re talk about in our political system. Have not been. Any progress. Why I'm saying I'm not blaming anybody who I'm saying is the system look at the US same thing. The gap between the haves and have not. Have not. narrowed. Wider as a matter of fact. Doesn't that. Tell you some thing about out political system. I'm not saying it's easy. I don't have a solution for. When you assess country assess people just like neighbors. You don't try to run their family for them because. I know my family you know your family I have to respect the weight on yours and I'd like watch I expect you respect my Ira while we still in good neighbors. It's bill, Ye retired provincial court judge and former member of Vancouver City Council. Margaret, mcquaid Johnson, what do you think of that idea that we don't have to agree with China? To have a good relationship? Well and I, think mister he makes a really good point that the people to people relationship between Canada and China is very strong and and we do need to treat one another with mutual respect The problem we've run into is China the it's not the Chinese people it's the. Beijing regime is not treating Canada with respect and in fact, last year they said that you know Canada's not a middle country Canada's a small country and how to stop leaning towards the U- US and You know no matter why Canada arrested Matt among you did it and you have to be punished. That's not the attitude of a country that respects another country and and so you know I think you have to recognize that this is driven by Xi Jinping himself and all of the the problems with the militarization of the South China Sea. In two thousand, fifteen, the mass arrests of human rights, lawyers, and environmentalists in Twenty twenty sixteen the building of the the cultural genocide camps for the week irs The social credit system which tracks would everybody is saying and punishes those that criticize the government. These are all just in the last five years, and so you know it's we do need to distinguish between the she regime and the people of China It's very disturbing to think that some Asian Canadians are being yelled at and assaulted in connection presumably with the corona virus and the fact that. China didn't get on top of that as it was being exported into other countries. So and we also have the military threats of China Gainst India and Taiwan. So there are a lot problems in the relationship right now but we are not alone and Our government is working closely with other like minded countries they're talking about imposing thing sanctions under Magnus magnitsky legislation we're looking at banning. Go ahead and do that, and there have been some statements in the government that we should be diversifying away from China to other countries in the Indo Pacific. I think that would be an excellent idea not just for trade and investment, but also population health and security science and technology. There are all kinds of things that Canada can be doing with other. Countries in the region so that our companies are not so dependent on trade with China, they could vanish overnight as we've seen this past year I. We just have a few seconds left I guess in some ways you agree with what Jeremy Kinsman of saying that the relationship I mean is important but the relationship can't be relationship until at least these two men afraid. That's right and and frankly I don't think any politician or official or business executives should be celebrating the fiftieth anniversary today was Chinese government officials There's nothing to celebrate until we get our citizens home and that is and should be a priority for the government China's important country will continue to do business there but we have to support our own values and our own citizens when they're traveling abroad mcquaid great to speak with you again. Thank you. Talk to you Margaret mcquaid Johnson a senior fellow in the Institute for Science, Society, and policy at the University of Ottawa and China Institute at the University of Alberta your thoughts on this. Welcome. You can email us at the current CBC dot. CA. Tweet us at the current CBC or head to the website CBC DOT CA slash current. Click on the contact link for more CBC PODCASTS GO TO CBC DOT CA slash podcasts.
April 30, Hr 2 John Caldera, President of the Independence Institute and Troy Coverdale
"This is mornings with Gail. Fueled by Great Western petroleum only thirteen ten KFI. Well we look at the facts. I think the facts are pretty clear. Verona Virus Rights John Caldero President of the Independence Institute but Rights John Caldera incomplete. Colorado Corona virus didn't shut down the economy. The government did joining us from the People's Republic. This morning John Caldera John. Welcome back to the show. Do you have your face masks so that you can go into essential businesses. I got my face masks got goggles. I'm in plastic. Wrap up My elbows you got your decontamination suit. Yeah indeed all right. Let's talk a little bit about this piece. Incomplete COLORADO BY THE WAY. You've been Quite prolific incomplete. Colorado really appreciated what you had to say about this entire pandemic but talk a little bit about your your premise here that the corona virus of nineteen didn't shut down the economy and government is absolutely did well because they did recorded virus. Didn't order anyone to stay at home. The Corona virus didn't order anyone to become a criminal for travelling or free association or going to work The the government did and it's it's amazing to me that We have been so scared that We're willing to give away our liberties this way. My biggest concern is not about the virus. We will build an immunity to the virus of One way or the other. It'll be slow or IT'LL BE FAST. But that'll be the economic devastation. That is being ordered. The by Localities governors and even from the federal government is something that could plunge us into into a depression and It it amazes me that About ten years ago we were out Complaining about Brock Obama's eight hundred billion dollar stimulus package which was a terrible stimulus package which did nothing but put us into debt and many conservatives were rightfully enraged and now we are getting close to three trillion dollars of made up money And I don't see the outrage now. I will say that a lot of this is much better spent than So called shovel. Ready Projects The more we can get money directly to consumers and more that we can get directly to people Then the mortal get infused into the economy. But we're still printing money out of thin air and I think ought to be concerned about that. The idea that we can stay at home for a month and a half two months and not suffer economic Devastation is just naive and so I'm very concerned about. I'm concerned about the economics. More than I am concerned about the virus. You know those weekly unemployment numbers just came out to. Oh I don't know about forty minutes ago. And now they were a little bit lower than what the talking heads in the economists and everyone was projecting. They came in at three point. Eight million economists were estimating three point five million but when you consider the fact that we're now over thirty million people unemployed in this nation. I think your concerns are very well-founded in talking about the stimulus and we just had what stimulus three point five. They're looking at stimulus or the concern there. Is I think as you very eloquently. Said you know okay. This stimulus is actually being put to some good use but there was some pork in that as well when you look at for example the Kennedy Senator Center for the Performing Arts Right. You know the the Keynesian idea that no matter what you spend money on. It's good I think The the Obama Stimulus package disprove that it showed that no. And you just put money into the economy It can find its way parked into banks and not get in. Infused economists use the term velocity. That is we never really had a recovery from from the great recession we got a new normal. Which is kind of a two percent Domestic Gross Domestic Product growth year that. That's that's nothing. That's that's really very sad so it's barely keeping up with inflation when we get the numbers for the second quarter and we won't get them for another three months I think we're gonNA find it very rattling so my my my concern is we should be opening the economy in every way possible as soon as possible lose. Put it this way. We're those of us who are skeptical of the shutdown orders in the way it's been handled The rest of says you want people to die so no matter what it is your complaint is you want people to die and you can't win you. We have not done a very good job explaining that An economic shutdown. What we're doing now will cost more lives that if you are If you're supporting a blind shelter in place order at that Closes down the economy. But what are we doing or keeping people away from their cancer treatments. Keeping people away from their melanoma checks were keeping people away from all sorts of quote nonessential surgeries. Which are also life saving in the long term. We're forgetting that for every Half percentage point of unemployment economists say that there's about ten thousand people who lose their lives through neglect through poverty through domestic abuse of suicide And at that point we are going to lose more people because of this shutdown orders then we are from cove it And it's and we haven't made that argument that those people who who are who are mimicking the Hollywood celebrities doing their little podcasts. Saying you know. Save at home. Save a life when you say stay at home save alive. What that means is if you go to work. You're killing somebody and know if you go to work you're saving people's lives go to work save a life you know and if you boil it down to its simplest common nominate or here's the thing that I could never understand this has You know we see local state. Federal Governments Picking Winners and losers essentially deeming businesses. Essential or non essential. Why is it that you're safe? Adt essential business. But you're not safe at a non essential business. John I just. I can't really figure that out. Meet the odd I'm talking to think of the right word. Government gets to choose without any sort of real reason who gets to stay in business and who doesn't so appliance factory which say which sells washers and dryers In the Thornton Westminster Colorado is closed down but you can go to Home Depot and buy your Washer Dryer there because they also sell nails. You can't you Liquor stores and marijuana shops are essential but cigar shops are not so smoker friendly shops in the Denver. Area Been Hassled until they had to close this if if people are not enraged by this then I don't think they're paying attention now. I was a little late to the game I will. It's a call from the I will fess up to the fact that I was willing to give the government enough to hang itself and Well let's just say the power hungry among them dinner deed do just that but my concern now is is a civil liberties lost. Can they ever be restored? It really surprised me that the the good left and I do mean the good left. The people who who who worked for civil liberties throughout the decades have remained so quiet during this. I don't know where the ACLU is. I don't know where people for the American way as I don't know where the progressives who used to say that you know are right to free speech a right to assembly right to travel right to worship. These were things Worthwhile fighting for. I'm not I haven't seen that. I've seen that when people are scared That government I don't WanNA use the word tyranny. 'cause it's way too strong but we don't question. The authoritarian government has. Yeah Yeah a little bit of overreach there. I mean we particularly saw that with Gretchen. Whitmer in Michigan with some of the restrictions that she put in place just absolutely goofy and the ACLU Colorado. They're staying busy. They're going after Sheriff Seabream. So they're in court today saying that he didn't do enough to protect those that were yes in his jails from covert nineteen. I've seen in the parks and my in boulder if taken down the the nets on Tennis COURTS IT. Wait a second silly. So what how does? How does this make sense? It's it's it's it's insane the The snitching that Who's now going on I mean this in the most sincere way that sounds like overreach but I don't mean it that way When you know we always wonder what kind of people whatever you know. Put people other people in cattle cars? How could Americans ever put Japanese-americans into concentration camps? How how did these things ever happened? And you realize it's because people are scared and you know so for the last month people have been scared here but for the most part we still have rouge are over our heads. We still have food in our bellies. So it's not a hard thing to to go back to pre World War Two days and think of man. What happens when you bullets are flying? People are starving. You don't have a place to live and government says do what I say well and we'll keep you safe. People fall in line and much better understand that. Now now certainly. It is a role of government to keep us safe but isn't the government's primary role To ensure our freedoms that was my understanding about it. Then can't just yeah I remember. I remember being taught that and when there's food in our bellies We don't think about those things nearly as much and I I. I don't think we those of us who believe in liberty those of us who believe in in prosperity. I don't think we've done a good enough job getting people to understand that when the economy goes south people lose their lives. People get hurt And that when you take away the very basic civil liberties back to peaceably assemble. Well then you're You're taking away the the the very essence of what we stand for what we fight for it. I just been so saddened by the lack of of concern about the loss of civil liberties It I didn't think I'd ever see this You know I didn't think I'd ever see any of this so I join you. In that assessment. John Caldera President Independence Institute. Thanks so much for your time. It's always a pleasure always like talking with you. Gail TAKE CARE. You too seven twenty nine thirteen ten. Kfi KFI Wa the whole sports story in northern Colorado the state in the country tune into the whole show weekdays noon to two and thirteen ten. Kfi K. after mornings with gale's stay tuned for the Dan Patrick show the whole show and the herd with Colin Cowherd Oland Thirteen Ten K. K. Remember the couple and all the consternation over Georgia governor Brian Kemp reopening the state of Georgia. Well Jim Garrity. Writing in the National Review makes a very interesting comparison that I wanted to pass along to you. Seven twenty six now thirteen. O a comparison to Governor Jared Polis. I might add in Colorado seven twenty six now thirteen ten. Kfi Thirteen ten KFI dot com piece entitled a tale of two states. So here's the rules in Georgia right now. Businesses may reopen and operate minimum basic operations. Businesses are not to have more than ten people in a building distancing to the extensive they are able businesses are encouraged to have as many employees. Telecommute is starting to sound familiar Telecommute is possible. Use staggered shifts handshakes and other unnecessary forms of person to person contact are prohibited the use of personal identification number pads and electronic signature capture devices discouraged without disinfecting between uses gyms fitness centres. Tattoo Parlors. Bowling alleys may reopen but are encouraged to screen workers and provide PPI elective medical procedure. G procedures have resumed the rules in Colorado right now vulnerable populations older residents are encouraged to stay home except when absolutely necessary citizens. A strongly encouraged to wear face masks in public Some are required to and some Muniz Muncipality's real estate businesses reopened retail stores can reopen in person business. May I if they are prepared to do so? With proper social distancing guidelines elective medical procedures have resumed dog grooming personal training are resuming with limitations such as contactless drop off and payment starting may fourth all offices in. Colorado will indeed be allowed to reopen with fifty percent of their workforce in the building. Businesses are encouraged to have as many employees telecommuters. Possible if telecommuting is not an option staggered shifts. Social distancing and physical barriers are indeed encouraged for larger companies governor. Police suggested temperature checks for employees if feasible now other than specific rules on gyms fitness centres. Tattoo Parlors and bowling alleys. Perhaps the most wide spread point of concern and indeed disagreement. The two states are following roughly similar pass to reopening. Jim Geraghty continues. It's easy to find headlines contending that the decisions of Georgia Governor Brian Kemper dumb and stupid and crazy and controversial that his decision leave mayors beyond disturb and they risk lives. But it's kind of interesting. You don't hear the same outcome when the policies are so similar in Colorado based on the restrictions and recommendations. Why is that? Oh Colorado's governor. Jared Polis is a Democrat says Jack Garrity that explains it. The decisions of police don't serve narrative that good and wise blue state governors are keeping restrictions in place while bad and foolish if red state governors. Who Don't believe in science are recklessly reopening their states. Embodying the Mayor of Amity in Jaaz seven thirty now thirteen Dan. Kf K. Thirteen ten KFI PREPS RADIO IS NORTHERN. Colorado's home for the best high school coverage. Catch me Dan Patrick and the Danettes weekdays nine to noon on thirteen ten KFI K. Coming to Derrick Police Yesterday outlined a state efforts to increase to ruin virus testing joined by Troy. Coverdells thirteen ten. Kfi News Director. He tried good morning. Gail how are you? I'm doing well and you can't complain. That's that's always a good. Yeah exactly how to add a wonderful evening and so we will see if we can carry it over for the day there. You guys see. That's the thing you know. We need to find those little pockets of sunshine wherever we can exactly exactly all right. So you had governor. Jared police outlining those state efforts to increase corona virus testing So what's your take on that it's going to be a rollout that is going to have some point. Get reach your goal that he has said of getting testing in all sixty four counties as of yesterday the plan that was announced is that the testing would hopefully ramp up to between seventy five hundred and ten thousand and the majority of that is going to come in about thirty plus counties As they continue to sort out Exactly where they want to line up that testing but if you get that number up to ten thousand that's a huge improvement over what has been taking place in and really is quite a Grow over what had been discussed even up until this point. What's a tragic to Came across some information this morning. That really caught my attention. And that is that when you look at the death rate and of course among those most vulnerable to covet. Nineteen those and the age varies but those particularly in their seventies with underlying health conditions. But when you look at the outbreaks that we have seen in for example Group homes senior group homes assisted living facilities. It's absolutely shocking. The the breakdown is just sad. I mean when you look at the number of places one hundred fifty seven different facilities in the state in the majority of them on the front range where the cavs have come from Is it? It's just It's I opening and tremendously sad. You're talking now over three hundred DADS and it probably will in fact going to over four hundred now four thirty three so you're looking potentially upwards of six hundred gathers maybe in just a matter of You know another ten days potentially yeah and I think it goes to the lack of that personal protective equipment and test kits in these senior care facilities being well one of the chief reasons that more than one in five cases of Code Nineteen in Colorado are related to residential facilities. It also goes to the lack of preparation and the the lack of Maybe four sites in being prepared for a situation like this ever developing in a specially nursing homes and as we have talked about We we've kind of gotten ourselves to a point and and as humans were really good at this and that is We tend to think that we've outsmarted everything and we are you. Are you talking about a little bit of Hubris? Perhaps exactly Mother Nature has a way of reminding us that no we've not out sought everything and no we don't have all of the science in place to be able to combat things at times and so you know it's it's it's a harsh reminder that in many ways some of the things that we've designed to be to to meet a certain efficiency are not the healthiest ways to go about our lives and this unfortunately is a huge red flag. When you start talking about it that way well perhaps a huge wakeup call and we can call it that. Yeah we could hope but then again do you carry it through. Four eighty years down the line that's when it becomes questionable for that to still be in place right now You had also noted that The Colorado Department of Public Health and environment clarified Some of those numbers out of governor police's Corona Virus Presser. Yesterday as well as your act. It's it's more the clarification of just where a number of the cases have taken place places. Where outbreaks really is where they've labeled them and we've talked about Some of these places you'll See A conversation this morning On our website of one of them and that is the lamb processing plant Mountain Stage Rosen lamp processing plant. But you've also gotten or Aurora Organic Dairy Ville where cases of taking place. The lupino foods plant Ingram early With twenty four employees testing positive for the virus there that of course Comes WITH MORGAN? County having seen their Lupino plant registered more than eighty cases. Were starting to get a better idea of just what the numbers are for the the major processing facilities and farm facilities and those are not good numbers either and really attention grabbing however J. D. S. is situation remains as the one that is the tops in the state With the number of cases that have taken place to people tied with that facility and it's interesting Tyson. Foods had taken out a full page ad of this past Sunday Basically saying the food supply chain is breaking and I was just in the store the other day just doing yesterday just doing a little bit of research and I went to the meat section and well it seems as though Toilet paper and no longer number. One on most people's lists for hoarding but to that end we're going to talk with Zach. Rogers Assistant Professor of operations and supply. Chain management. Issues is a college of business because Unfortunately I would say I'm not so sure it's breaking but it is certainly being stressed it is and there's going to be probably much like when we talked with finances a number of reserves that are going to be pulled into the marketplace before they really were expected to be and so we will be definitely seeing a change in what to expect when we go to the store. Yeah definitely try. Coverdale thirteen ten. Kfi KFI news director. Thanks as always and we'll chat again. Tomorrow sounds good. Gail thanks seven fifty three now thirteen ten. Kfi KFI TO UNC. Bears target game coverage lives on thirteen ten. Kfi The latest on Cova nineteen local news in sports. We're here with you thirteen ten. Kfi K. and thirteen ten KFI K. DOT COM President trump invoked the defense protection. Act TO KEEP A meat processing plants. Open this as Tyson foods takes out a full page ad. Essentially saying the food supply chain is breaking saying to farmers will be left without anywhere to sell livestock and millions of animals chickens. Pigs and cattle will be depopulated rebe euthanized because of the closure of our processing facilities. How bad is it? GonNa Get Zach. Rogers is an assistant professor of operations and supply chain management at Colorado State University thirteen ten KFI K. A. Closing in on eight o'clock all sports story in Northern Colorado. The state in the country tune into the whole show weekdays noon to two and thirteen ten KFI K.
Spearphishing from Luhansk. Pro-Assange hacktivism. Another undercover private eye? Pirated Game of Thrones episodes carry malware.
"Spearfishing campaign against Ukraine has been traced to the so-called Luhansk People's Republic. Anonymous threatened to rain chaos on Yorkshire if Julian Assange is freed actually more chaos since the initial chaos was perhaps too easily overlooked and implausible venture capitalist is asking people if they're being paid to bad mouth, a security firm and pirated game of thrones episodes carry malware. And now a word from our sponsor extra hop the enterprise, cyber analytics company, delivering security from the inside out prevention based tools leave you blind to any threats inside your network by adding behavioral based network traffic analysis to your sock you can find and stop attackers before they make their move. Extra hop illuminates. The dark space with complete visibility at enterprise scale detects threats up to ninety five percent faster with machine learning and guided investigations that helped tier one analysts perform like seasoned threat, hunters, visit extra hop dot com slash cyber to learn why the sans institute calls extra hop fast. And amazingly thorough a product with which many sock teams could hit the ground running. That's extra hop dot com slash cyber. And we thank extra hop for sponsoring our show. From the cyber wires studios. Data tribe. I'm Dave bittner with your cyber wire summary for Wednesday April seventeenth twenty nineteen. Military officers in Ukraine are being Spearfish by a group seeking to install the rat vermin backdoor rat vermin is a second stage payload delivered by a power shell script FireEye which identified the campaign links to the Luhansk People's Republic. This is a region in eastern Ukraine controlled by Russia and represented by the occupiers as being a breakaway state. That's won its independence from Ukraine Kiev regards Luhansk as nothing more than an administrative fig-leaf for Russian occupation Kiev, probably has it. Right. The Washington Post seized the Luhansk operation as a troubling harbinger of small state and non-state actors deploying increasingly sophisticated cyber weapons in this. They're following fire is lead, the company's John Holt quiz told the post that quote, we're focused on the big players and for good reason. But we should bear in mind that if this small substate can put together a hacking capability. Than anyone can in quote, maybe but with hacking as has so often been the case with Connectik terrorism, while there are genuine instances of attackers operating quite independently of other support there are many more instances of attackers working deniability on behalf of a state. That's especially true with the more troublesome and damaging attacks buyer. I did say it found no evidence that the Luhansk group was being assisted by Russia. But here that old chestnut that absence of evidence isn't the same thing as evidence of absence should be kept in mind and to ask if the Luhansk People's Republic is receiving assistance from Russia is a little like wondering, whether Google receives assistance from alphabet in both cases are wholly owned subsidiaries. So alternatively this aspect of the campaign might be more realistically viewed as a Russian attempt to achieve plausible deniability and not as a small group breakout into the big time. Here's an example of what looks like small group activity contrasted with the sophistication of the rat. Vermin installation campaign supporters who wished to stand by Julian Assange are doing so by taking to Yorkshire councils websites down presumably the attacks on Barnsley and Bedale would prompt a groundswell of hacktivists pressure in favour of Mr Assange is release Barnsley council said it had indeed sustained a distributed denial of service attack, and that it had succeeded in restoring its website, the council also alerted the national cyber security center of the incident. The Bedale matters were little different. The Bedale town council said it was unaware that anything had happened to its site. So go figure any who needless to say someone has claimed responsibility for the incidence tweets from the Philippine cyber eagles. And the anonymous Espana both claimed credit and cyber ghost four. Four thought to be the founder of both groups if indeed these are group's in any meaningful sense offered. A menacing message, quote, free, Assange or chaos is coming for you, and quote, so there why Yorkshire was chosen as the beachhead for this particular activist invasion is unclear in the case of Bedale. Apparently, nothing happened at all unless of course, that particular corner of north Yorkshire is ordinarily so chaotic that any new chaos that came for you for them was just lost in the sauce. But it looks like another activist fizzle. And of course, Mr Assange remains in custody. But to return to the spearfishing campaign in Ukraine fire is Holt Quist makes a good point later in his interview with the post he noted that Russia's hybrid war in Ukraine has been kind of proving ground for attack tactics and techniques the post quotes halt Krista sane. It's created this consistent battle rhythm of activity that we'd never seen before then quote, Russian cyber operators have a record of perfecting their method against Ukraine, and then using them elsewhere, and that does seem beyond serious question. But as a sign of increased capability on the part of unrecognized micro-states and others with axes to grind will. Wait and see if sea land or the Republic of awesome, turn out the lights in north Yorkshire or change every high schoolers grades in Union County, New Jersey that would be a different matter. Moody's Investors Service recently published research, titled credit implications of cyber attacks will hinge on long-term business disruptions, and reputational impacts the report outlines which business sectors. They believe have high risk exposure to cyber attacks. Derek Fidel is managing director of global cyber risk for Moody's Investors Service. So we've view cyber risk as event risk. And so we recognize that there are now these global cyber events, which have real dollar value impact. If you look back to two thousand seventeen not Pattaya there's view that that was about ten billion dollars exposure across a number of different companies with about two and a half billion really focused on just four companies when you start to think about these kinds of very large financial impacts across individual companies. You can start to think about how that affects overall the quitting and other financial strength of those individual companies, and how that could eventually have an impact on credit. And so that's the way we're thinking about it as these financial exposures due to cyber events can have a channel credit at some point if they rise to a certain level and have we reached the point where there's enough history with these sorts of things that we can make accurate predictions. I think we're still in the early days of being able to use historical event data to make predictions. But that's obviously something that a number of different industries, including the insurance industry are very focused on the data set that exists for this is not quite as as long and rich as data sets, for example, on normal types of cat risk or, you know, other risks associated with for example, weather events. We do think that this data set is building over time, and it will get better over time. But they're still work to be done. For example. A lot of the data sets really focus in on breaches of privacy information because that's where a lot of the regulations exist and the the disclosure requirements around cyber. Prevents tend to focus today on breach of personal information. And that means that the data sets often are missing things like disruption events, or maybe there are disruption events that that occur. But they're not they're not attributed to cyber vents. And so in order for the data sets to improve the disclosure has to improve in it has to start to cover events beyond privacy breach events. No, the research covers some specific sectors that you'll see is having a high risk to cyber attacks. Who are we focusing on here? Yeah. So when we we did our now assists. What we came back with is that there are four sectors with about twelve trillion and rated debt that we thought were at a high risk and these included the banks securities firms, Mark it infrastructures, financial institutions and also included hospitals. And some of the reason for that. For example, in the financial services side is the fact that these. Organizations are so reliant on technology and supply chain transaction volumes are very very high. And so the ability to do things like revert to manual processes in those industries, very very limited hospitals, for example, have a lot of personal data. But more importantly, they're starting to become even more interconnected in terms of patient care, which obviously opens up a number of potential vulnerabilities that could affect patient care and impact patient health. I think one of the things that's important to point out here is we're really looking at the inherent risk across the thirty five sectors that we evaluated and we're not taking into account today individual defenses that an individual company might have. And that's important for us. Because what we're trying to do right now is really set a baseline across the playing field and come up with a relative ranking of inherent risks across sectors. That's Derek Vidal from Moody's Investors Service. The research is titled credit implications of cyber attacks will hinge on long-term business disruptions and reputational impacts. The we pro Hac may have targeted dozens of the company's clients, the company initially put a brave face on reports of the breach. Pooh-poohing the first reports from Krebs on security during its recent earnings calls, but it now acknowledges that yes. The attack did take place it's bringing in an unnamed forensic company to help with its investigation. Several media reports of sent that the incursion appears to be the work of a nation state. And that the targets were we pro clients, the IT outsourcing and consulting firm was it self more avenue of approach than target. This may represent a trend as intelligence services begin to take growing interest in managed service providers. The is reporting on another suspicious questioner one Lucas Lambert who said he was a venture capitalist and wished to talk with the think tank about a cyber conference. Mr. Lambert said his firm was organizing his questioner Chatham house. Russia's specialist cure Gyles was struck by the way conversation all turned quickly to whether anyone was being paid to bad mouth Kaspersky lab. A couple of other things struck him to for one Mr. Lambert claim to be based in Hong Kong, but seemed to be as unfamiliar with that city as say a manhattanite might be unfamiliar with Seacaucus for another thing. He kept asking Gyles to speak up and repeat himself to the point where Gyles thought he might ask whether he ought to speak into Mr Lamberts pen or necktie or briefcase or wherever else the microphone was secretive. And for yet another he thought Mr. Lambert suit looked to cheap to be one of the might wear Kaspersky lab didn't respond to the AP's question. About whether they had anything to do with the inquiry. The AP is reminded of a similar approach to the university of Toronto's citizen lab by one Michelle lamb bear back in February in that case, the microphone looked as if it were in measure, lamb, pairs pen measure lamb bear was interested in finding out. Why people were slandering controversial lawful. Intercept firm NSO an Esa said, then they've never heard of Missouri, lamb bear. So our Lambert and Lambert the same mug, or maybe related the general take is that they're the kind of PI who appeared as a second or third banana in Bogart movie, usually played by Elisha, cook junior and rarely successful at getting the girl or cracking. The case we hope there really are two of them. They'd be like Thomson and Thompson DuPont EUPOL in the original. We always liked those two detectives in the Tinton comics. And finally game of thrones fans when you watch watch properly and pay for your premium channel, it's giving you value, right? Pirated copies of the new episodes are out and about z scaler warns and many of them contain a subtitle file that contains malicious code specifically remote execution exploit. And if you download one of those spoiler alert winter is coming for sure. Time for a message from our sponsor, no before it can take a hacker to know. A hacker many of the world's most reputable organizations rely on Kevin Mitnick, the world's most famous hacker. And no before chief hacking officer to uncover their most dangerous security flaws. You might ask, hey, where can I get the skinny on the latest threats, and where could I find out? What would Kevin do? Well at Nova force webinar that's where Kevin and Perry carpenter. No before chief evangelist and strategy officer give you an inside look into Kevin's mind in this on demand webinar, you'll learn more about the world of social engineering and penetration. Testing by listening to firsthand experiences and some disconcerting discoveries. You'll see exclusive demos of the latest attack. Ploys find out how they could affect you. And learn what you can do to stop them. Go to know before dot com slash hacker. To register for the webinar. That's K n. W B E numeral four dot com slash hacker. And we thank no before for sponsoring our show. And joining me once again is David before he's the vice president of engineering and cybersecurity at web route David it's great to have you back. You all recently released some survey results that tracked artificial intelligence and machine learning what did you find out here? MLA? I it's it's very close to me. We've been spending ten years plus doing machine learning at Weber. I'm so we have very strong opinions. And this survey just it. It's interesting to me where we talked to a lot of our customers or people in the industry and seventy six percent of the people. We surveyed said that it didn't matter if they're protection included a AI or machine learning. But then seventy percent said they wanted to see advertising that said used AI or machine learning. Wow. Yeah. I'm not exactly sure where the connection there is. And what what I think is, you know, go out to the MS shows and things like that. And I talked to folks I think the feeling is if. You're doing a in L than than your perceived as being technically advanced and and really forward thinking, but it doesn't necessarily have to be in the product by from you. That's fascinating. Because I I mean, certainly we've seen at like you say at the trade shows, it's all over everything would an interesting gap there. Well, it is in your exactly right. When you say, it is all over everything a lot of times people lose sight of the value that artificial intelligence and machine learning can bring in they're more interested in seeing that it's that it's available, and I think what we need to do as an industry, not as producer. But as a consumer understand, what value that the Mallory is gonna bring to you not just is it in there. Because a lot of folks see that they see the hype, and they just run with it where if you really understand the specifics where helping words not helping that's how you can really make a judgment if it's something valuable to the product you're buying what about the the sophistication of the two. Themselves are people. Are you finding that folks are comfortable using these tools well from from our perspective as a consumer of our solution shouldn't even know if it's a m L so you could be using it and have no idea that you're using any type of machine learning environment because it should protect it should automatically remediate. It should automatically do everything for you as much as possible. Now, there are tools that you have to be interactive with and those tools have varying levels of complexity and knowledge that you have to have. So it really depends on the tool, and what you're using it for sounds like, you know, your marketing folks, would probably like you to install a little red blinking light that lights up every time the machine learning. Artificial intelligence is being used right? Yes. And I hope none of them. Listen to this because you know, be having my engineers put a little blinking red light wondering why they're doing it. Absolutely, right. Yeah. What about? The other side of it. Are we seeing that the bad guys are making use of this stuff as well? You know, there's a huge belief that the bad guys are we're not seeing as much of it that correlates with the belief that they are machine learning is very sophisticated. There are non machine learning methodologies that you can use to attack machine learning models, take less sophistication less complex techniques. And there's as we said the whole tried and true items as well of types of security attacks that are more simple. So if you don't have machine learning on the machine protecting you those those methods are good as well, where am I going with all this? If you were a cyber criminal, you're going to use the stuff, you know, already path alise resistance now, there could be some cybercriminals out there, you know, large ego. They want to really use some advanced techniques, but those are very very few most people are just opportunistic. So again, we're not seeing a lot of it. But it is in existence and. I'm over time. It'll start growing. Yeah. That's interesting. You can have the most secure the most sophisticated security system in your home and somebody can still throw a brick through the window. This is exactly what I tell people that the cyber criminal wants to seal your TV isn't gonna hack your your your network infrastructure to kick in your front door and take your TV. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, it's interesting stuff. It is the web rude AIML survey, and you can find that on the web route website David before thanks for joining us being here. David. And that's the cyber wire links to all of today's stories. Check out our cyber wire daily news brief at the cyber wire dot com. Thanks to all of our sponsors for making the cyber wire possible, especially are supporting sponsor observe it. The leading insider threat management platform. Learn more at observant dot com. The cyber wire podcast is proudly produced in Maryland out of the startup studios of data tribe with their co building the next generation of cyber security teams. And technology are cyber wire editor is John Patrick social media editor Jennifer Ivan technical editor, Chris Russell our staff. Writer is Tim no, Dr executive editor Peter Kilby, and I'm Dave bittner. Thanks for listening.
Genocide in China
"After, the Holocaust the world cried out never again while in Communist China genocide is happening again. The COLSON center. I'm John Stonestreet. This is breakpoint. The United Nations Convention on the Prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide went into effect in one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, one at the time, the convention defines genocide is actions quote committed with intent to destroy in whole or in part a national ethnical racial or religious group. The definition included deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part including imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group while as is the. The case with any activity, we deem a crime laws against genocide cannot enforce themselves. People are in this case, nations have to be willing to use the label genocide when necessary and also take action, which tragically since nineteen, fifty one, the international community is batting about zero besides the genocide in Cambodia and Rwanda. There's been at least a dozen other campaigns of extermination that arguably meet the conventions definition of genocide, but with a possible exception of the horrific events in the former Yugoslavia. No. No one's really done anything China, of course, has an atrocious human rights record and given the lack of consequences that nation has faced time after time. It's really no surprise that the People's Republic would flout the convention in the international community and they are Beijing's treatment of the weaker minority in Zhejiang Province qualifies in nearly every way as genocide writing in Newsweek. Israeli human rights lawyer arson astrology didn't hesitate to call with the Communist. Party is doing to the weavers genocide pointing especially to. To forced sterilizations, abortions, and intrusive birth prevention. Those actions alone meet the requirement for genocide and they've led to the population growth rates and the two largest weaker projectors to fall by eighty, four percent between two, thousand, fifteen and two, thousand eighteen. But that's not all according to the state. Department quote over a million, we have now been detained by China in camps where they're starved abused, tortured, electrocuted, raped, and even killed recent video footage showed leaguers with heads shaven blindfolded ruled in. In hurt it onto trains headed for those camps astrology who lost family in the Holocaust admits that he is quote loath to draw comparisons. But in this case finds it impossible not to draw parallels in the face of overwhelming evidence of state sponsored ethnic cleansing and genocide by China's communist regime. Now, of course, it was equally impossible during the Cambodian and Rwandan genocides when the world did next to nothing other than some hand wringing and expressing regret long after it was too late still. Still. There are signs that this time could be different though not because of the weaker fellow Moslems whose conspicuous willingness to be bought by Beijing should be an embarrassment to them. Instead resistance to China right now is coming from countries that are finally fed up with China's bad actions. Even some not concerned with China's terrible treatment of religious minorities or its crackdown on Hong Kong have concluded that Beijing just needs to be not down a peg or two or ten, for example Japan is. Is, paying Japanese firms to move production out of China for reasons, part economic part, national security, and part desired to rein in. Chinese. Ambitions. Another example India, who after a recent border clash in the Himalayas is courting companies to relocate their production from China Apple. For example, is in the process right now of moving twenty percent of its production to India from China. India's also ban Chinese APPS including the insanely popular TIKTOK. Something that president trump also threatened to do for national security reasons. Reasons though none of these moves are in direct response to weaker persecution, still they illustrate that countries don't have to appease Beijing civilized nations have both the means and the cause to punish China for it's despicable actions. People have good conscience led by Christians have to make it clear to our leaders that business as usual with China is simply intolerable, otherwise will never be able to say the phrase never again ever again, least not with a clear conscience for breakpoint I'm John Stonestreet.
Gun Culture Is A Civic Virtue; COVID Pandemic As Model For Gun Control; Cross-Dominant Shooting Eye: Gun Talk Radio | 4.26.20 Hour 3
"Crimson trace offers a free batteries for life program that includes nearly all laser sights electronic sites and rifle scopes just register your product for free set of batteries each year at Crimson trace dot com. We are back with your third hour of gun talk. I'm Tom Gresham. That number still the same eight six six. Talk Gun or just call me Tom. Talk Guy if something on your mind we can take care of it. If you knew to guns I'll help you out if you're an old hand we'll have a conversation if you think you're just a bad idea. Nobody should have them. And you just hate hate hate guns. I'll give you the floor. How can out of the way I want to hear? Why okay seriously. I'm not GonNa shut you down not going to cut you off. We'll let you have have your say. Just give me Holler eight six six talk gun occasionally. You run across something you go. Yeah don't care when it was published. Good we cannot pass this up and that happened recently. Saw An article titled how America's Gun Culture Cultivates Civic Virtue published a year ago by air in town by Aaron Towel? He joins US right now. Erin thank you so much for spending some time with us here either. Absolutely I mean this is a. I thought it was a really interesting article. Let me just read the first line of it and let you pick it up from there. Many people are often surprised to learn that I am a gun. Owner any firm defender of the Second Amendment. Why are people surprised at that? Well as it goes I mean Asian. Americans aren't aren't aren't that commonly known for a for for For enjoying guns as much as two other other Americans. I suppose some of that has to do with it. Had to do with with culture has to do with the history and the circumstances of arriving here in this country. My family's from the People's Republic public of China and the Communist Party has banned and firearms ownership for fairly obvious reasons and I look at how our household we mostly suburb in a suburban community. Where hunting and shooting is not is not even my neighbors not really. It's not really that common. So there there were. There really wasn't that Culture for me at least an appreciation for guns growing up but I was one of those kids would like to ask questions and also as an immigrant you kind of have a much stronger incentive to learn the history and customs of your adopted country and that kind of let me down to that kind of led me down the rabbit hole to the position. I hope today that Second Amendment protects ultimate. Protect your God given right to up to keep to keep their firearms ultimately Stereo Liberty Security. You know you mentioned in here. One of the things that I've been able to relate to people over a lot of years I'm just like it was twenty years ago. I think it was the first person in the gun. World to start writing about the pink pistols and welcoming the gay and lesbian they'll be bt community into shooting and then we had you gay shooters who came in and say you know people need to understand once you walk to the shooting rains. Nobody cares what you've been told. Trust me all they want to know is. Are you safe with the gun? Do you want to shoot here? Let me help you. Here's a gun. Here's ammo I'll I'll help you out and I don't care if you're B. Q. If you're you're black if you're Asian Asian nobody cares in the gun community absolutely and I mentioned in my article but every time I wanna go to the gun range. I go really awesome one nearly a five minute drive from where I am. And in Austin Texas but I see people of all backgrounds of all ethnicities of enjoying enjoying themselves and having fun and and the forbidden fruit factors definitely comes and definitely comes in. Because I almost every time I see that. Foreign tourists and exchange students are eager to to to to to take advantage about rights. That back is heavily restricted. If not all not all I completely abandoned their in their own land. Well sure I mean if you go to Las Vegas they have all of these places where you can rent guns and shoot machine guns and do different things. And you see an awful lot of Asians they're lined up to shoot guns because they can't do it back home. I mean I'm sure you've probably seen the headlines that I mean I mean. There's been a huge. There's a huge surge in gun buying for the last two months you know with people concerned about work with lockdowns in the in the nineteen people are fearful for for that might be brisk down in society and And a lot of Asian Americans are vying for the first time The ratio ratio backlash I'm happy to say that I personally have not extended any backlash of discrimination for my ethnic around here in Austin Texas but in other places I mean. It's a big. It's a big world and I know from I just know from experience and from reading history and psychology that they're evil people in this world and when when when when the social fabric of society is being tested. People can can do some very unsavory things and regardless of your background. You have a copy of rights to protect yourself absolutely true and I don't care who you are you know. There's always some by the out. There are some group out there who decides for whatever reason they don't like you and it's up ultimately it is up to you to take care of yourself and your family. The police will show up when they can. It may be a few minutes. It may be a couple of hours. They'll do what they can do. But honestly it's probably realistically it's probably all going to be over by the time they get there and so how it ends up is really gonNA depend on how you handle it yourself. Don't count and somebody else and Y- let me ask you in their article. In fact the whole title is how America's Gun culture cultivates civic virtue. What do you mean by civic virtue dissect basically it's the it's it's the mindset and the norms exemplified by founding fathers as Benjamin Franklin and George Washington about about this about about uploading of the norms that makes a vibrant community? And that's ultimately. I believe it was John Adams who says that about this. This constitution is meant for virtuous people people who people must understand that our rights our rights come from from humanity and the government government ultimately is force and with that in mind. I've only used to protect life liberty and property and when strays outside of those bounds It can very easily down to a very ugly path. As if the with the with the history of countries like China in Germany in Venezuela right now when government does people take take take control of the government to prey on others and we ultimately need to be vigilant to the fact that as also Ronald Reagan's that reading this one generation away from extinction. So we need to be vigilant about what our leaders are doing. I love your line. Ultimately government is force. That's what it is watching under the Cova pandemic where governors and mayors are exercising force without any legitimate backing of law. They start doing it and we are seeing pockets at least some places where people are resisting and going. No you actually do not have the legal authority to stop the Second Amendment. You don't have the legal authority to stop the First Amendment and the only way to your point. The only way that you prevent that from happening in the future is when it happens you stand up and you push back exactly and that's one of the things that draws me to this country. Is that a people I mean. This country came into existence through rebellion. People are not people are not gonNa just become gonNA bend over. I like to think that the locker electric think that incentive for politicians not to have to lock downs last any longer than they have to because when the economy crashes the chances of getting reelected plummeted clements as well and here in Texas. I believe the governor is prepared to lift the shelter in place by the by the thirtieth and Q. Very adamant about getting people letting people get back to work and I'm really hoping and keeping his cross well. It is a really nice piece of writing and obviously this is a year ago. So if people want to see what you're up to these days how do they find your Intel? I have thirty x asked active on twitter handle Aaron. Aaron tells two so. I'm pretty sure that's probably my most public. Social Media Feed also. Actually I just so happened to be working on an article right now and you mentioned earlier about especially intense civil unrest of the cleese. I mean the National Response. Time for police at nine minutes. And when some places like Like New York. One fifth one fifth of the police put out sick of excelsior. Please openly admit. They're not they're not going to. They're not going to go after the break. Ins and thefts I mean that's just the back signal for though unsavoury elementary society to To prey on others and ultimately again this article this article. I'm working on right now. The more elaborate on the ultimate responsible for your own safety and security so my writing eastbound on the foundation for Economic Education and other other to Other two publications like I just like to contribute to it aerial magazine and quiet. So you're likely to find my publications. Have Mine on On one of those One of those sides if E. E. DOT ORG and over on Twitter it's Aaron how to A. R. O. N. T. A. O. The number two I just clicked on it and I'm now following you over there. All right sounds good. Aaron thank you so much. I really appreciate your clear thinking on this. We just appreciate what you're doing and carry on. Please all right you take care eight six six talk gun that's refreshing and pretty cool that your thoughts what God you pine and also are you just fed up with the lockdown. Are you ready to get back to normal? I mean I know we stuck to be smart. We have to be careful. Have we reached the point where it's too much eight six guy? For Twenty Five Years Crimson. Trace has led the industry in laser and light technology and customer service now Crimson trace his proud to offer electronic sites and rifles scopes for tactical target and hunting applications with the same crimson trace offer of free batteries for life on all products. The new rifle scope line is also backed by an unconditional lifetime warranty from the brand that you have trusted for over two decades find out more at Crimson trace dot com ms land once wild and free fades now from our memory but I remember what it was like what we were like what we're capable of when we band together perhaps more than any other landscape wet last embodied the light giving abundance that nature has to offer and perhaps more than any other organization ducks unlimited is working to ensure that our continent's wetlands not only survive but thrive for generations. Well beyond this. When these natural wonders are where waterfowl begin their cycle of life with the deer and the antelope playing. And where we? The people gathered together to C. N. share what makes the outdoors so great but time is now to band together with organizations like ducks. Unlimited time is now to rescue our wetlands. Visit gun talk dot com slash win to enter gun talks go long giveaway with Dale Defense Crimson. Trace Caldwell Timmy. Triggers and locked down the Grand Prize winner receives the Daniel Defense Delta Five bolt-action action in six point five creed more prize packs from Crimson Trace Caldwell and locked down and Timothy Triggers Calvin elite em seven hundred trigger plus two first prize packs enter now through may eighteenth at gun talk dot com slash. Win An eight six six. Talk Gun James with us out of Boston. Mass on five. Hey James Thank you for your patience. You're on hi Tom. Thanks for taking my call. You Bet what's up? Well I We're a little out of touch up here in Boston as you probably know in many many ways. But we're about a week late so yesterday I heard your Comments YOU'RE AT THE NRA. Show the reasonable virtual NRA. Show right right. And you think you so eloquently about the Second Amendment. It was just a pleasure to hear. Thank you lead indeed One of the. What are the challenges I have with this whole you know the the match wherein with this is that every law on the books that I could find talks about firearms and yet the Second Amendment? Just just says arms any any thoughts on that. Well it is. It's a great point and it's a in fact I talk about it. Occasionally that the group called knife rights and they say that they are a second amendment group but knives our arms as well so knife rights dot org. It's a great group. They've made some wonderful headway. They've been able to pass preemption laws in a number of states. They've been able to go in and repeal the bans on switchblades and easy opening knives on one hand opening knives and a lot of places. So yeah you're right. Almost nobody catches that the second amendment is not necessarily about guns. It's about arms and that can be knives. It can be swords it could be a number of other things it just. It's kind of lost on people and that may be a small part of it but I mean is there something like you're thinking of therefore we should do something with that. Yes I I think. We need to enforce keeping and bearing arms. I don't carry anything. I bear arms. You know keeping keeping a rather carrying a firearm. I'm definitely something states. Can License knows the legal definition of carrying his transporting for higher. So the case. Can they legally licensed it? Well could they license the First Amendment? We've had these you can. They require you to get a license to exercise your First Amendment Rights. Most people would say absolutely not. That'd be crazy. Can they require you to have a license able to buy a book? Well that would be anathema to civil libertarians. But somehow they think it's okay to require someone to have a license to buy a gun so there's a problem. I appreciate your call. Sir and I know you're got a noisy connection there but I do appreciate that and thank you for the compliment. It's every once in a while. I'll say something that seems to make sense to somebody and I appreciate that. Let's see line one Paul's with. Hey Paul Hi Tom. Hey I was listening to talking today a little bit ago about shooting. Hey that's the marvels twenty two times. Talking wife was a pistol rifles right. Okay I been simply because it's easier to swim but for the no actually. I didn't go into any detail if you would like. I can explain how I learned to do that. I mean here's the deal if you use a low powered BB gun and you're in a place where you can safely shoot. Bb's into the air. You can see the flight of the BB in the air. So you'll sit there. You could start with something the size of a tennis ball and you just toss it up like six feet in front of you straight up six feet high and you just bring the gun out and and fire and you see where the BB goes. Do another thought up pretty soon. You realize you're not necessarily looking through the site you're looking over the top of the sites and you build. We call it muscle memory. It's not really but you're building this set of feelings and hitting a tennis ball all the time that's easy and then you drop down to a golf ball and then you drop down and I got to where I could make money in college. We'd go out shooting with the guys in college and I had twenty two rifle and I would toss up a quarter now the trick. There's you toss it in such a way that you basically it's spinning like a Frisbee. The flip side is always facing. At least that's what I did but Hours probably wouldn't perfect but I was probably fifty percent or so I could hit a quarter tossed up in front of me and of course when you hit with a twenty two because now this was back in the old days and that would be a safe practice most places today this back in Buffalo Roam the earth dinosaurs and things so but but Leeann measures. Has This shoot where you look program. He's the guy that really took this and ran with it came originally from a program that the US army head and they actually introduced. Fort Polk Louisiana for people who are going to soldiers who go into Vietnam and they took daisy air rifles knocked sites off of them and they call it the quick kill system at pop up targets and it taught him just to throw the gun up. Shoot look the top of it and they got real good at it. Well daisy like the idea of it. They brought it out for civilians and they didn't want to call it a quick kill program so they call those guns skill system and then you could throw things up and shoot him with your daisy. That it was just a lever action daisy spring powered that had no sites on the gun at all and so I was using one of those hours. I don't know twelve thirteen fourteen. Something like that and got to where I could hit pretty much everything we threw up in front of us but it is A. It's a skill you can develop in for hunter. Think about how helpful that would be to be able to. Just throw the gun up and make a good shot in a hurry because a lot of times you get that one moment when that deer stops and looks maybe over shoulder back at you and it's a thousand one thousand two and he's gone and that's and that's it but if you can just throw that going up and get on him and pull the trigger and you know how to do it. It can make all the difference. I have several twenty two weeks. I think I might buy some Mo Play with a little bit where I would be be. Obviously you gotta be really careful because even subsonic cam was going to go away as I would suggest getting yourself and inexpensive spring powered. Bb Gun not pellet gun BB gun. Probably going three hundred feet per second. They're they're slow. You can actually see them in the air and that for one thing is really cheap and other it. It's not going to disturb anybody. And within I would bet within a hundred or two hundred beebees. You'RE GONNA start making connections. I mean and they'll easy WANNA still up tin cans easy to knock those. But you'll be amazed how quickly you start picking it up. I thank you so much. You Bet. Thanks for the call appreciate that. Let's see here okay. I'M GONNA get bill and here on four bill. I got literally one minute for you. What did you get a brand Romanian? Psl from the factory in Romania. I spent my stimulus check from Presidents and put him out. You got your twelve hundred bucks. This gun Kostya Just under thirteen so I got a really good deal. I'll bet you did a brand new from the factory and it's one of the century one from the past right right but I saw I had to have it and Economy going I got. I got a buddy and you'll appreciate this. He says you know we don't none of us actually gets any money. We just deflect money you know. You comes into your. You'd you deflect it to the you know the rent or the mortgage or to the house to the car payment. We were just keep moving. Also we're doing. I love that image of money coming in and when it gets to you you smack it and it goes to somebody else. All we're doing is deflecting money around but you know what that that's what the economy is. I appreciate congratulations on pulling that down and buy a gun with government money now. I know it's our money. There's no such thing as government money but still. There's just something about the idea if say I'm GONNA take the government's money and go buy a gun that appeals to me. It's the anarchist in me. That's what it is eight. Six six talk gun. If you'd like to join me give me a Holler. What you've been what you've been buying. He's actually. It's not a bad time to buy guns particularly used guns shop on the website. All my gosh. He's got forty four special three inch and there. This is going to cost me money very cool. Good resource where to shoot dot org and where to hunt Dot Org put together by the National Shooting Sports Foundation if they can. I don't know where to go. Shooting around here would know where to shoot dot. Org Put in your Zip Code. Boom I put in my zip code put in you know anything within you can do it like within twenty miles or eighty miles within eighty miles around others like thirty places to shoot. At least it's crazy and they give all the information where they are hours. What kind of shooting? They have all the rest of it. That's really useful particularly if you're new to shooting for new guys if you just bought a gun with the whole krona pandemic my friend Brooks Coming Randy Brooks ever at barnes bullets. She just posted. She says you know buying a gun getting your carry permanent without getting any training like buying an airplane and just trying to teach yourself how to do it. It's not really that far off. It's not a bad comparison. Think about two bows with us out Shreveport Louisiana. Hello Bow your gun talk. What'S COOKING. Oh nothing much. I got question that nobody can really seem to answer some of their for you. It's involves a governor's Staying homeowners and unconstitutionality behind it And the reason for the there was understanding of the death toll was going to be so grand and now that it's not and and not the disrespect anybody who's lost family members to the corona virus But what stops these governors from saying we have a gun violence epidemic and start to supersede the second amendment and start compensating with that. Oh absolutely I mean. Here's the basic concept that you're expressing which is if they can say you have rights except when there's an emergency you don't have rights at all you have privileges and so what they're saying is we are superseding your privilege of the Second Amendment. We're superseding your First Amendment Assembly. Privileges you don't have rights because trust me if they're real rights they can't do away with them by just saying. Oh by the way. We're all scared so we're GONNA take your rights right. No I think you're exactly right and actually I think a lot of people have kind of awakened of that idea of going. Whoa wait a minute. They just shut down all the gun stores and in some states of course the whole in Security Department of Homeland Security said no gun. Stores are essential businesses. But more than that forget essential. They should be simply protected under the second amendment. And you don't get to shut them down no matter what I mean. If you want to shut down gun stores. There is a pathway for that. All you have to do is repeal the second amendment. You do that and now. You're good to go right and that's why. I met with the I guess. I'm extremely frustrated. I of course I don't martial law but the government has a way to remove your constitutional rights. Of course I don't I don't want marsh while by any means but if the government is truly feeling that this epidemic is so substantial that we need to to just completely know at the First Amendment and then Whatever they take they never give back and what is obviously the second. It's whatever they want now is just a step toward what they ultimately want which is ultimately they want to take all your guns. It's hyperbole is not paranoia. They actually do whatever they get a chance. That's exactly what they do. Look I gotTA keep rolling here. I appreciate the call very much. Let me see here. Oh shoot let me. Scroll too far line. Three Johns with us out of Washington State with a range report force. Hey John Eight understand you. You like the P. Three sixty five sometimes too. I do I like almost all guns. I think we had a total home run and actually kind of created its own sub category with the peace through sixty five. Carry Gun you too. Yeah Yeah I'm not carrying all the time right now. I carry a a Ruger Elsie. Nine s right now but a little more weight than I want to switch to the P. Three sixty five okay But I when I first tested one in my range I noticed that the the slide frequently did not lock back and then I tried another friend of mine had the P. Three six five excel in his. Didn't lock back sometimes and I bought one and mine didn't lock back sometimes. Might Lock it back on the last shot in the Maga- yeah I was ready to send it back to Sig and then I mentioned it to another instructor at our arrange and suggested that my son was probably writing on the slide. Lock and sure enough very small. It's so small. That's the normal position for my thumb. Yes that is very common a with the smaller guns. If you have your thumb up high it arrest on the slide catch or the slide. Release whichever you want to call lever there. And as a result where normally with the last shot the slide would lock back. But you're pressing down on the slide. Release just goes forward. We have had that happen on. Not just a P. three sixty five but a whole bunch of the small guns not as much from an individual more Sofa Ryan my son when shooting guns for the television show. He is the way he owns a gun. That happens a lot him less. Oh for me so it really has to do with how you hold the pistol well and it's weird because you don't even notice it you don't even realize you're you're holding down right now and it's not to be right until you finally go This pistol and same deal. You're thinking okay. There's something wrong here. It's the the magazine it's the catch is the something's wrong with this pistol. You know. It doesn't lock back on the last shot. And then if you're actually consciously stick your thumb away from that and shoot it you go by. Golly it does back every single time. Twelve Round magazine that that works better? Well I just going to say and I have. I don't use the 10-rounders anymore I just find the twelve. Rounders are so much more comfortable for shooting really. Don't present a problem for concealment from me. And I've gone to by the way I've gone to outside the waistband holsters entirely with just a shirt tail out in his not been a problem with concealment. And kind of go with a Hawaiian shirt. Look it's not. It wasn't my original look and it wasn't my thing. I was tucked in shirt kind of guy but I decided rather than get guns that match my clothing. I would go ahead and dress for the gun. That seem to be a more prudent way to go that way too but for my work. I was more kind of a professional thing. It depends on where you are what you do. I mean you can't do it everywhere that's why we have more than one gun isn't it? Yep Yep so I I. It's interesting my My story is just real quickly until three years ago. I never owned a pistol. I'm am my fifties forty years ago shot a couple of year with my dad's thirty thirty and never shot. A pistol never owned a pistol until three years ago about my p. Three twenty and now I'm an instructor and Range Safety Officer. Wow have attended many classes and I. I basically do individual instruction kind of in my okay. We're GONNA WE'RE GONNA flat run out of time so I know you're going somewhere with this. Well I'm just saying that I really caught the bug. And you've been a big part of that. We're all I appreciate that. I hate to rush you. But the Commercial. Run over the both of us. If we don't talk here not all right. Thank you so much. I appreciate that eight. Six six talk gun bill to perform in the harshest conditions. The ruger American pistol can take it all from vice to dust and everything in between the Ruger American pistol features short take-up trigger Novak sites and a recoil reducing barrel can with low mass slide for reduced felt recoil plus a modular grip system with three sizes to fit almost any hand. Check it out at Ruger DOT com the Ruger American pistol because anything else would un-american. Hi this is Tom. Gresham from gun talk. America is critical wildlife habitat at a rate of one football. You every hour. It's happening on Louisiana coast. But it's critical to all sportsmen conservationists these pressures wetlands provides winter habitat for more than ten million ducks and geese annual waterfowl that migrate North who dozens of states. Don't shrug it off get ball you can help visit vanishing Paradise Dot Org. You can't shoot at what you can. Positively ideas at threat count on Cheer Fires Combat Proven Illumination Tools to defend you and your loved ones when it matters most designed engineered and precision machined for the ultimate performance and reliability for more than forty years from the front lines to your front door. Surefire delivers the finest and most innovative tactical lighting solutions on the planet go with a proven performer. Goes surefire I bet with eight six six. Talk Gun without of Rogue River Oregon to. Hey Mike. What'S UP. Hey good to talk to you again. Hey I get your emails. Some pictures of some river ten twenty two pistols I bought. They're both never ever been shot. One was nineteen sixty three hundred year anniversary or go home. That was nineteen sixty five Kansas and there in the boxes and never been shot. You happen to look at those emails. I did not get them. Oh okay well I have a client. I've been working for for years. He was Mike. I'm downsizing he goes. Are you stood in these? And my God that number he gave me was a little bit high but I could not get him out of my head so the next next day I called my made him another offer English. That's fair so I got these beautiful beautiful and you know it's really hard is not being the shoot him. I've never bought a collector done before. But I know at least two hundred bucks a piece each if I shot him. Let me ask a question. Why did you buy them? I want to shoot him or are you. Are you going to try? Keep them for investment. I bought them at a ploy and investment. I have other firearms. I can shoot but flight. Really do want to shoot them. But I'm not GonNa let let let me let me help you with this thought process because there may be if you lost two hundred dollars on what would it mean you. GotTa Missa meals. No no no okay. You WanNa shoot firearms I could. You know. Shoot so does not compute. Of course you do. We all have guns but I want to shoot them all. I don't I will not own a gun. I can't shoot will not was no point in. I'll let somebody else enjoy that. They could look at it. They can invest in it. Guns are made to go bang. And that's where I get my enjoyment. It's just not my thing but look that's your safety. I'm going to invest in this and I think I buy low sell it. Hi I usually go the other way but that's a whole different deal But yeah good luck with it. I appreciate that. And that's that's pretty cool. I want to get down to Laying out of Houston on four with a range report there. Hey Hey nice to speak to you appreciate all you do for a shooters out here. What's this about you being a contest winner? Yeah so I was? I was so stoked. Ain't Saturday when I found out that I had one The Last contest you had it was the P. Three twenty x y lesion own. Oh Yeah Yeah I got a couple of weeks back but I if you coated and stuff I haven't been able to get to arrange and try it l. but in the line of dry fire and what do you think. Isn't that a nice pistol? It's Nice Love the way he was in the end and is really nice. Awesome and Even though I got the gun for for Free I had to spend a couple of hundred bucks to get the Romeo one pro put on that. I'm not laughing at you. I'm laughing at me because that's exactly what we all do you go. Oh Yeah I always say the most three three most expensive words. We know our might as well. Yeah I think you live. That's been ringing a lot. Well congratulations on winning. The see people people really do win these. He's got a gun talk dot com slash when you can enter satire very cool. Thank you so much for the call and congratulations. That is terrific. I WANNA get cannon here before we hit our break. You Line three out of Medford Oregon. Ken what's cooking? I've got a problem that I got my shield carry permit and I went to a couple of self defense. I handgun classes and one of the things that they stress being able. Situational awareness is union with both eyes open dominant. But I'm right handed shooter me too and I when I shoot with my right hand if I close my left eye. I'm dead on my hat. Both Eyes Open. I'm about two and a half inches to the right. If I do with my left hand it doesn't matter whether I close my eye or keep my eyes open. I'm dead on. What can I do to help myself was a right handed shooting with the left? You keeps shooting right handed. Use Your left eye for aiming and if you need to squid a little bit with your right eye to get a clear picture. Just do what you gotta do. You're going to have both eyes open most of the time and then at the moment when you're ready to shoot if you need to close the right eye or squint just a little bit just to bring that left. Diane. But don't try to fight it. Use Your left eye for aiming shoot right handed. Here's a little trick. I picked up longtime ago. It's very cool deal Just as you draw just as you start to shoot turn your head point your nose to the right about thirty degrees literally. Just turn your head to the right about thirty degrees that will bring your left eye around and bring it up perfectly in line with the sites. Oh cool Yeah 'cause it's Kinda frustrating I in cowboys shooting for years and I left and right handed you know and and I never had a problem until all of a sudden. I've got both eyes. Open shooting with my right hand and it's not right. Yeah that's it. Try that. Turn your head about thirty degrees to the right. And it'll line that left eye up but don't be afraid to squint. That right is when you're shooting in the I know it's better to have both eyes open and you'll be able to at some point but you got to train your eyes to work. That way. Very cool yeah. She knew right handed left dominant. It's very doable. But a long guns I would say fly to switch left shoulder possible. It's a pain but it really does pay off eight six six all right. Let's talk pocket. Keri Jones with us out of three or four on line five Joe. What did you find for some time? You know I just found the ideal Kyrie And carry outside the waistband. So I started talking Curious Glock. Twenty six but you can't carry a glock twenty six chambered in your pocket. So I looked and looked and somehow came up all missile topics trigger guard made by. Arai are a hundred twenty dollars I said. Hey what's to lose so I try. I've been extremely pleased at works. I've practiced with it on the range. Pocket Kerry not ideal by any means but it makes nothing and it is protective and it does come off when you need to draw. It's interesting I have not heard of this and I just looked it up during the break looking at your note there and it's basically clip-on guard for the trigger guard but it has a hook on it so when you withdraw it from your holster or other from your pocket the hook on this Sheila pop off and leave you with the gun in your hand but it protects the trigger guards. You're not gonNA stick your finger on the trigger guard when you draw. I've been using it now for about six months or so and it's worked flawlessly. They got him on sale right now. For Seventeen Bucks Ninety nine and the name of the IT'S B. O. R. A. I honestly I've not heard of this before you carry back pocket front pocket which trump walking right front pocket right breast pocket. Nothing else in the pocket. No nothing else. Yeah the left side now. Yep exactly you can't have anything else in the pocket and obviously that would cause a problem if you had to squat down or and it could have. You tried obviously with an unloaded gun. Have you tried drawing? Why you're moving like when you're running. No have not done that. I've done a static draw and shoes on steel But I have not tried drawing while running because I'm going tell you in a bad situation. My first moves to run and I'M GONNA be drawing while I'm running. So that's been one of the drawbacks to pocket Kerry entirely for me. You might want to just try it and there may be technique you develop but in your head. I would encourage you to get into your head the idea that when something happens start moving. Don't draw and then move move first and then draw why you're moving because moving sometimes only three feet and make all the difference in terms of either somebody coming at you. Are Somebody throwing something at you or somebody shooting at you but just moving three or four or five feet to the right or the left whichever you can do. And that's what you want to have that in your head that if they're saying goes down. I'm going to move and go for my gun council. Thank you all right. Hey look thank you for the heads up. I had not heard of this brand You know and I appreciate the call he knows I know and you probably know too. If you're serious about this stuff you're going to end up with a box or two boxes of holsters. I cannot possibly count. How many halters. I have over the last twenty five thirty years that I've been seriously carrying. I'm sure it's fifty no exaggeration. Sure it's fifty holsters actually next week by the way we're GONNA be talking about an Keri. Got Somebody with a really good holster next week. I'll tell you all about and I don't go anywhere I want to get you into the show. There's not enough time to get your right in here. If you've never heard the after show shame on you get the Gun Deleo APP for your phone and I know if you have if you have the android Google play does not have it go to gun dot com. Download it for your iphone or your android phone and you can listen to our after show or you can listen to gun talk in your yard. It's very cool. Hey appreciate to be near. Be careful out there. Take care of yourself. Do keep doing the social distance who thanks be smart. But let's get this country opened up as well and go out and do some shooting and take one of those new gun owners with you and that's something you can do for the second amendment.
#055: Big Trouble On the Little Island of the Gods | Alisa Rutherford-Fortunati IV
"This show is a production of migration media to learn more about us and see a complete list of our shows visit migration media talknet from gration media. This is migratory patterns. I'm your host I Mike Shaw. And as has become tradition we are wrapping up season. Three with a discussion between myself and my life partner her legally legally married to person paper. That's right yes individual person who is signed the legal contract with me to be. Did we actually sign it. Or did I just do my fingerprint actually. I don't remember if we signed find. It gets my thumbprint and maybe not signature. What we will check the check? We got the official document from the People's Republic of China. That says we are legally married which is interesting interesting but anyway this is a Lisa before to Nardi my wife slash partner and we are in Bali. Yes currently sweating sweating profusely. It's basically the default position here. You're sweating profusely unless you're in a place where the air conditioner is blasting. Let's good for your health right. And that's very good for you healthy. We have come to come together at the end of season. Three to talk about the big transition an ir life kind of talk out a few issues. If you've listened to this show you have heard me mention this being in Bali moving to Bali if you listen to a recent episode of the podcast bittersweet life. You would hurt my interview on nats show where I talked a lot about the issues. That have come up for myself as well as thoughts about my leaving China. But we're going to that between myself and Lisa right right now. So let's do a very quick recap. Why are we in Bali for those who have not heard the story before so we talked a little bit about this? I believe in the last podcast. The end the season two we talked about. We were GONNA go to Bali and yeah so we're here now in part because because I have joined a school here in Bali and The school focuses on mindfulness and holistic education nation. which is something I'm very interested in? Of course there's still a standard thorough academic curriculum as well but it is. It's very holistic and focused on developing all aspects of the individual which I think is an essential part of education. They plug in the mindfulness and Meditation Classes Right Not specifically meditation classes one of the classes. The students do yoga. One is gardening nine and then also. We have mindfulness time in morning. Circle Times where we do do meditation or breath work or things like that. It's non secular. There's nothing religious about it in any way shape or form bite. The students have the opportunities to develop techniques that can benefit them in a variety of ways. And this is all plugged into the British curriculums. This isn't like some crazy pampering scheme this is this is all I mean if you do research on it there's tons of schools actually in England right now. That are integrating mindfulness programs and is there. There's definitely more and more research about the benefits of mindfulness. Four were youth. There's already been quite a bit for adults that are shown how it can benefit us our health our mental wellbeing and things of that nature but as far as for students or youth. There's a less served it's being done now but there's less there are. There are already programs in the United States in and other countries that are integrating this into public the schools and private schools. So this is nothing new. It's nothing like shocking but this school has been around for twenty years and for me after I finish. Finish my master's program. I really felt like I wanted to continue my education and so in choosing jobs I am choosing schools that not only am interested in the country or the school itself. But I feel that I can continue continue my education as individual and as a teacher there so Bali was the place that we ended up being drawn to but it was more so in in some ways. The school that drew is here than it was. The Bennett was Bali itself. There's lots of wonderful things about Bali but I think it was the program and it it just kind of clicked. This feels like the next right step is very much career oriented. Yeah it very much is kind of different for us. Yeah neither reverse has ever made that kind of decision about life path before there are other schools of course they'd have these type of programs integrated into the core structure of their schools but again it was partially that it felt like the right place for for for anyone who hasn't heard before the story. We've actually we had a chance to come down here and actually visit the school. We were down here on holiday. Last winter last northern winter as staff offering to announce last northern winter. We were down here on holiday during the Chinese New Year break. The school was here. We checked it out. It was great. You had a really good good feeling when you met with the people and the environment is really nice and it's so different from Beijing and there's lots of great vegan food there's lots of You know lots of juices. We can drink lots of healthy food so there was a lot of things that made us feel like. Oh this is not only career wise for you. That was the paramount but then all the other things kind of lent it to being so different but in a way that we were interested in exploring right now when we got here here we ran into some unexpected road bumps and Some of them were kind of they were of the kind that you would expect. ACT TO RUN INTO IT. Which is kind of oxymoronic unexpected? But they'd be expected basically. It took US way longer to find a place to live than we thought it would. I think we'd budget in three weeks to find a place and it took a seven. I think in general to be a bit self reflective both both of us. I don't think we were no arrogant in the sense of. Oh we've got this. We've moved to across across the world before we've moved to another country. I was very much like that. Okay so maybe you word. I don't think we were. I wasn't necessarily arrogant in that exact way but there was there was an arrogance. There of we've done this before we know how to do this and I think we were. We're both naive in thinking that since we've gone through that whole process before that we would get here and yes things would be different but it wouldn't be such an intense culture shock. I honestly again. They're sounds incredibly naive. Steve Reflecting on it. But I didn't really expect to get culture shock and I just thought wargin I can kind of cause I love people watching and I love experiencing new perspectives and traveling new places and just experiencing different things so for my perspective. There was the sense of like I've done this before you know. I traveled across the United States. I lived in this place. I've lived in that place and so when we got here here. We gave ourselves week to settling joy ourselves and we really have a great time and then a certain point where like okay. We need to digging into house hunting and we had challenges finding houses in China as well but it. This was a whole other type type of challenge. We didn't know what an acceptable price really was. An a lot of things you find out through word of mouth moving to a place that has a high density tourists and not a AH. The density of the population is low enough that you can feel it really changes how easy it is to find a house reasonable cost of things in China. There was always kind of a higher cost because reformers but I think there was higher. Hi It was. You didn't feel it quite as much as you do here. It's not developed here. We went some some aspects will know week we came from a place where we had to figure out the cultural differences and we had to navigate not knowing the language but in in big cities in Beijing and big cities in China now especially in a place like Beijing Tier One city. There are apps you can just plug in what you're looking for and you find the options and it's not as simple as seeing what's is there and hitting a button you have to go visit and check places out but there's just a sink there are two or three places you can go and you can just find lots lots of places here. It's not quite that simple. There are websites you can go to. But it's an polices are notoriously. Not what they appear to be plus also we kind of put our restriction on ourselves but we wanted to be a very specific geographical area. You know we could have probably had an easier time finding a place if we had gone a little further out from where we are right now where we settled is great and we got it to just within that circle that we had drawn on the map and we Kinda I had to go to the edge that circle defined what we wanted. Because you couldn't find exactly the attributes of the House that we wanted and that was a real wakeup call and for me on my eyesight it was really about the lack of development like we came from a place that is. It's almost like living in the future if you come from the US and you go to China some of these tier one cities cities it is like the jetsons. It's just everything works. Everything is on an APP. You can find everything in a push button and most people speak enough English where you can get by. That's how I felt I and then we come here and none of that is no. That's here. I think that you have to make caveat here that that's true on a lot of aspects but at the same time there was also moments where you're like what is going on. Why do I have to go to the bank Ted Times to make this one transaction happen? Why do I have to go to five? Different banks to find one that will do you know. I think that there are lots of challenges in every place you go and there were lots of challenges in China but for us they were easier to navigate. There was something something about it and again it could be who we are. It could be when we went when you went in particular. Could be the people we had around us. It's hard hard to say specifically but there was something a about the way that Beijing worked. That was easier easier for us to navigate. When we got here I think both class it was just this huge wakeup call of like Whoa we have? I've no idea what we're doing in this place. Every thing that we thought we gathered every like to. Whoa we thought we had in our tool belt one? It was still being shipped from China to Indonesia. We had to wait for it to get here but figuratively we. We had to throw it out. We had to completely say okay. We're and maybe that's not the experience that every ex pat has or every international migrant has or maybe it is. I'm not sure but for us it was jarring and I because I had my work and school could find a grounding in that way but you know Working with migration media media it was I think it was even more so jarring. I went from having a nine to five job that I had had for eleven years to coming to a place. Ace where I'm totally working for myself at the same time trying to find a place where we can live. I'm I'm scout now places online finding links for you while you're at school and then if if we're lucky after school we can go visit a place or two if we're lucky. I actually started taking the headway on it. I was actually doing a lot of the research urge the majority of it and at a certain point I got so overwhelmed after two or three weeks of doing it mostly on my own because I am more particular particular to be completely honest. I'm more particular about certain things. And so that's why I had taken the lead on of course but after a certain point three or four weeks I was like I need you to take the lead now because I was so overwhelmed in burned-out by it. So that's the house part of it that we did have particular particular set of requirements that we wanted to find what we wanted in the very small geographical zone that and we wanted to stay in and then find it within a price range and at at high tourism season so a lot of these places are are being rented out as AIRBNB. We want to sign a yearly or multiple year lease from a lot of these places are going week to week month to month. So yeah that was. That was a struggle and that was kind of indicative of the road ahead. Yeah I mean it was it was Kinda rough. It was a lot rougher than I thought it would be and I the next thing saying I want to talk about is how we got to a week after we moved in. We haven't really settled. I had to do a visa and to for that visa on actually went back to Beijing and it was rough. It was a rough time. I loved visiting Beijing. I love seeing the friends I saw I saw. I saw more friends in the four days I was there then. I probably seen you know during the normal course of a month or so just because says it's all packed in very tightly and it was rough I found out I really missed it and I didn't quite understand why and it was a struggle. I remember we came. I came back and we had a conversation and we talked about how much we miss China and it was quite shocking to us how much we missed it if you listen to the last last podcasts that we did together. We were both having a hard time. I think at that point. I was almost having a harder time with the concept of leaving China which is unusual. Yeah it's very unusual for me. I am very flexible migrant. I'm very flexible about my concept except of home especially knowing my partner was going with me and off those things. It was surprising to me how how deeply I was feeling feeling it. I kind of come to a place acceptance when we got here it all came flooding back and I actually had to even ask like. Please don't talk about China. Please don't talk about Beijing. Because it was so heartbreaking had such deep grief about leaving even though it felt like the complete right decision it it was gut wrenching and both of us. Immune particular kind of came to this place that I realized I mean there was so many beautiful benefits and things that we got from being their challenges as well but what I realized eventually was that you know. It's is partially that Mike and I got together there. We got married there. We had our first apartment there. He used to offer his furniture. It against. Yeah we used to like just have incredible weekends either walking around a park or walking around Nikea Keno now people watching park. That's an incredible experience with China. You should do it if you're at the chance but it was. Yeah I mean it was. There were so many powerful memories there and when we left of course we didn't leave those memories but we left the things that physically titus to those memories and that was definitely a such a process of grieving. Yes tough and I honestly don't quite know why I feel that way like I mentioned this in my interview on the bittersweet life with Katie Shady. Sewell that I didn't feel this kind of missing this kind of longing after I left Boston. which is the place I grew up in I have such an intense attends deep love and connection to my hometown and I? I still don't feel that way. I mean I feel out here in the world as an international migrant. I am kind of in my my element. I'm I'm I found my calling. This is what I WANNA do. This is where I WANNA be and I'm with the person I want to be with but that it's getting better the whole separation from in Beijing as time goes on the AAC fades a little bit. I had to do another trip back. Just actually a week or two ago and it was a lot easier but I'm just not sure why felt that way and hopefully I can figure that out because I don't want to go through this again. Maybe it's maybe it's eleven years maybe it's it's all the amazing life experiences and coming into myself. Maybe that's the reason I got to tell you if we're here in Bali for a handful of years and I feel this way after moving out of a place I. I don't know if I'm able to handle this. We have to find you a job somewhere. We don't have to move. I think that is actually something thing that I think. Were still on the path of being international migrants. And I think we are still in the path of Living in various as places throughout my career and your career but more so it's my career that will take us different places. I think that we're still on that path but I think it did call us both to question how many times we WanNa do this. Yeah the shipping things here here. I mean we we down sized our lives a lot wheat throughout everything or gave away or sold everything that did not bring us joy and Aliens Marie Condo very proud of that. Well maybe not because we still have five cubic meters with us stuff which actually is not that much. I mean you the account when you say five hundred meters. I mean I took a picture. It's basically didn't even feel half of one of those mini pod containers but it took so long to ship it and it was so oh expensive and it's funny. Now that is derived. There's kind of this nesting process. That's going on and it feels really nice and I and a lot of this transition. It's feeling a little easier because it's just every day you do a little something you put something away. Something finds its place and it just feels nice like Oh. This place is a little more hours now. Yeah Yeah and that's really nice but yeah we're going to have to figure out some other way to do this and I actually. I've never taught to people who've around so much like when we left Beijing aging we were living out of our luggage for about four months because we left China we spent a month in the US. Then we spent two two months searching for a place here and actually in the first couple of weeks we were here. We were still live. Our luggage really was until I got back from visa around three and a half months living out of our luggage. I don't know how people can kill it. Didn't feel good at all. Now if felt very ungrounded and I think part of what attributed to that as well is that finding that community and that friend circle is a very different experience if you are in a place where you're just okay. Let's just meet everybody in forever however long you're here that's great and we'll start a friendship. Maybe that friendship will last for three hours. And then I'll never see you again are. Maybe maybe it'll be a couple months. That's great there are definitely people who are here long term but finding that long-term community mini and finding those people that are grounded in living here but still open to other people is challenging and and so we were searching for our home. We were waiting for all of our things that are nesting items to arrive. I from Beijing. We were starting to kind of look for socializing opportunities and all of the things we were finding. Were just just not very grounded. They were all transitional. The relationships were transitional separately. The people that I was meeting at my work mark which was lovely but I think We were also searching community beyond that in kind of I just feeling things out I can be at times introverted. I call myself a introvert or an ambivert so I've definitely have desired deeper friendships in the last few years and to not have quite as big a French circle but but to have the deep friendships and we did meet some some very nice people here but a lot of people are here for a very short amount of time and so figuring out what community means here has been an experience. Yeah and that's been a little a bit tougher for me because I don't have a professional environment that I go to. I don't have a set roster of people that I interact with every day. I don't have a routine. I have to develop my own routine which is tough in basically you have to pay to have a routine here. You WanNa go to like the same co working space every day and then you have to make an effort to engage with people you don't you don't have common cause with people going to job. What I've discovered is going to a job is is very freeing which is an oxy's like an oxymoron because when you go in their structure everyone has a way that they're operating everyone's part of a team? You're a part of that team. You know your role. Everyone's roles and define and within that context you can engage with people and that is very grounding and very freeing because because it gives you space to explore relationships with people how to relate to people is that someone could be a friend outside work etc etc here. It's not like that. And even if I go to the same co working space every single day the people who rotate in and out of there are constantly changing whether it's someone who doesn't go there everyday just once in a while or at someone who's there for a month on rotation and then they go to some other place. It's really this whole different animal. One interesting thing that happened to me is actually. It was last night I went. I went to this kind community event at a school and it was awesome because everyone who is there were our age and most of them had kids and there were vendors. It was Kinda like this this fair at the school where they had vendors and food and rides and all this cool stuff and and I met a bunch of people people and it was the first time I felt like Oh there is a community here and there are spaces where these people gather and I can gravitate to them. It doesn't have to be about me going to work every day. I can build those relationships and find those structures outside of workplace which is something I've never had to really work has always is provided kind of the foundation you. When I was in Beijing I was in Beijing? I found my job a two months after I arrived there and yes I'm all of my friends. I met outside work but but I had that grounding in a job that I went to every day I had that steady income that afforded me the ability to go out and drink lots of alcohol and art clubs and stuff now. Now that I'm GonNa do that now but yes so it's been really difficult for me to navigate this space because it is so different from any other space I've ever experienced here and if we go to a different city in a few years it may be totally different again. It may be another one of those cities where people tend to live there here. This is a place there. There are people who live here but there's also are huge proportion of the people just pass through and it is really tough to find those spaces to navigate through through the environment in such a way that you don't feel isolated. Hey everyone if you like the kind of conversations that we have here and migratory patterns you should check out pop abroad hosts Michelle. Obama is a mission to help ex pats and migrants live their best lives overseas by talking with the people who are doing it right now during the first season. She's talking about community why we need it. How can use it to get a leg up? And how the best community leaders make. There's work listening to she interviews credible women who are killing it overseas to hear how they're creating community in their adopted homes. You can learn more and hear the latest episode at Migration Media Dot Net. We're just search for pop abroad. Wherever you get your podcast so the last thing I wanNA talk about was the physical environment vis-a-vis transportation infrastructure? And this sounds like I'm GonNa get all Wonky but I've discovered there is is just a basic level of comfort that I have knowing that there's public transit around and here in Bali there is zero. None no I know public transit at all. You have to either get a cab or a car hire or a bike hire and let me let me tell you. If you're not riding a scooter you you ain't going anywhere very fast. You GotTa have a scooter otherwise you are sitting in traffic because the roads are narrow. You can't walk anywhere. I see people riding bike and riding bikes and I think think my God those guys have a death. Wish it's crazy. The roads are just so treacherous. It has been a wakeup call for me. Now the flip side of that has been ever since I Sattar riding a scooter man feel awesome like to get on that scooter and go and I know I'm not going that fast but I'm going pretty fast. It feels very liberal out. I was telling you I think might be a motorcycle guy. Yeah I never thought of myself that way I mean if we get back to North America at some point I might. I WANNA get a motorcycle or a really nice scooter really enjoying the scooter. I never did the scooter thing in Beijing scooters everywhere in Beijing but I always wrote a bike because partially because I wanted the exercise but also just because even there was a little treacherous and I just felt safe on the bike because it's smaller frame and I can weave in and out much more agile then cars and scooters but here man. I really liked that scooter. I had a different experience with that. Maybe for you like the community has been harder to find for me dealing with not being able to just walk places or take a bus or the subway. I really don't like not being able to walk to for me to in that you know for me part of how I explore and find my grounding in a place is is to walk. I love walking place for us to walk to the grocery store. That's kind of on the other side of our neighborhood which is not that far. It's like a treacherous the ranger at some point. We're walking in the middle of the road. It's dangerous and so I think that was all we had visited here. That was one of the things that it was like. Oh Oh wow like you cannot walk here. There's there's a few areas have sidewalk or enough of shoulder where it feels safe towards the area. Yeah yeah but most areas there's no shoulder and if there is a shoulder that's probably a bike on it. Yeah we're in the places where it's not a tourist I e area. We're in a place where it's a touristy area and there is actually a sidewalk or a shoulder that is separated from the road. It is not going. It'd be free of motor vehicles. Not People do not walk here. There's just no consideration given I and because I love walking the first three or four weeks we were here are actually more than that. I think the first seven weeks I did walk and People Billig I saw you walking or some of the people from my school would stop and be like two hundred ride. And I'm like no all of this is purposeful. It's okay yeah we actually purpose this mistake. Two months I want to be the first seven weeks while we were looking for a place. We purposefully found like AIRBNB B.'s. That were within walking distance school so you could walk every day and I met. I met some amazing dogs. Not Everybody has agreed experiences with the dogs but I met some amazing dogs. who were lovely? There was this like huge Mama pit bull that I would see every time so sweet and and I got like a walk through a rice field and then in on crazy busy road to my school and there was lots of interesting and enjoyable experiences that but for me since I started learning learning to drive when I was fifteen and a half sixteen. I've had a lot of anxiety about driving and I'm not sure if fits proper to call it a phobia or if it's just to say that it definitely causes me anxiety and I've driven across the United States for three and a half months of my own. I if you know. I've done a lot of things that required me to drive but if I don't drive for a long period of time it starts to make me anxious again so moving here where basically if I want any freedom I have to get on a scooter has been intense and I think part of the reason that this is important to talk about is to talk about mental health and what that means as an ex pat. Because you're going through an experience that's often hard to explain to people that have not been through that experience in you may be used to a certain type of health care and mental health care in your home country and finding that elsewhere can be extremely challenging. I think talking about mental health mental health challenges is incredibly important Porton. I'm doing fine but I do have a lot of anxiety about this thing. That is in central and important part of life here in Bali on on the scooter. Yeah I'm getting on the scooter and this is definitely one of those times where I'm like. Okay what kind of counter can I reach out to that that can maybe support me that or that we could even talk about the experiences. Were having as partners and on our roane individual journeys because for both of us. This was the first time that we moved to a new country with with somebody else and so on many levels I was wonderful because we have this partner to go on this journey with but you can also also expect that. Even if you're in the same place doesn't mean you're on the same journey. Yeah it's kind of interesting we the way we did it as we were traveling for a month breath and even during that month we were kind of separated for a week or two doing her own thing in the US but then we came through Beijing and then we came here to Bali the first week we were just kind kinda hanging out so we were kind of almost on this travel vibe together. Like we're traveling. Were on the road where we're getting on a flight. Where going to this hotel? We're going to this AIRBNB here. And then at some point it stops being a trip together and starts being. We've moved someplace together and that's where it started to feel different. Yeah And I could see for us. We have been able to maintain and Allow our relationship to shift and to grow as were here but I you know. I think I was talking to you a a couple of weeks ago or something like that. That that I bet there are quite a few international migrant couples. They break up when they moved to a new place. This because for both of us we were able to thankfully talk through our experiences and to share that with each other but his so incredibly intense and kind of like stepping back from that and looking at it together. It's like wow I think a a lot of people could not survive this. Yeah so even though they it might sound strange to be in one breath talking about motorcycles in the next breath talking talking about how intense it is for couples one example of how again we were having completely different experiences. RANCE'S I'm on. I'm on the bike. I'm loving it. It feels like freedom. It's helping me ingratiate myself into the environment here at super triggering for me me. I'm finding great community my school for you not. Yeah and so again like I had a lunch with Somebody in the first few weeks that I was here and there like how are you doing and everything and I was like. I'm doing well. I'm actually doing really good and and again like on many levels GATT. Were we're great. We're we're doing well but then there's these other levels of processing the experience and figuring out what it means is to be here and to be together here and to be having only only separate experiences in the same place it is it is really mind blowing. It's jarring a you know I. I've used that a few times but I think that there there has to be okay so in our first week here there was an earthquake. Yeah was that a second day or something right and so we're sitting on the couch in the it starts to shake and and I'm kind of noticing it Michael. Ix Mesa's this system quick house like generous quake. It was very minor so we're both sitting there concerts to get a little more intensive sh winco somewhere him maybe get a little more intense starting roar. Yeah we're like Oh yeah we need to move. It was done so it was like it was not a big. But that's what it's felt like. It's felt like the earth has been shaking. It's actually a really great analogy because it started slow. We just noticed it. We we had enough time to question it something happening. I think something's happening. And then it's like Holy Shit. Something's happening and you had so we're both kind of. That's that's basically the the best analogy of like we're looking at each other. We're going what's what's going on. Something are we having experiences that are challenging and then they're gone and that it's like a so. It's a cycle of kind of being like well. That's that was an experience and I think we had those in in China. Ah but for some reason we were able to take them in a different way. He's feels different here. If we went through this stuff in China. Obviously it was different in the sense that when you got there had been there for I think six years at that point so you had someone to obviously. It's different if you go somewhere and you're moving in with someone and there's we had challenges with that where it wasn't Europe. We got our own apartment and it would I place that was ours because the place you went to wasn't yours. Awards was an hours but this this feels so different. This this whole experience feels a different. I don't know what the heck is. I don't know why my first six months in in China were superintendents. You also got hired pretty quick. I got hired a new school and I was learning Mandarin and I was just transitioning to being there was there were very intense But for very different reasons and again there's been lots of things that have happened that have just rolled off my back there. There was some tools in my tool kit that I was able to use like there was a whole bunch of stuff that happened with getting my workers and and bureaucracy that I could easily allow to roll off my back because they've had crazy experiences with getting work visas before I just wanted to check the great story about US going to open your bank account. We have total child China bureaucracy. PTSD this was hilarious. We had to go get you back account and we thought what we need to bring every scrap paper that we could possibly think of. We brought you work contract. We brought your work visa. We brought a birth certificates Africa. We brought our marriage licenses and the English translation we bought. We bought our lease every possible thing and we got there. They wanted the passport and my work year. We're the permit which is called Keita's but yeah it was like we had. We literally brought a backpack full. The documents we were so prepared and then we got got there and it was like. Oh okay we don't need as much but again like there have been lots of experiences that we've just like rolled with and have you know there's I mean we've been here for five months four months four months and during those four months so much has happened so when we're talking some of the challenges there's been tons of things that I think other people would say that's a challenge and we were just like whatever we just like let it go because we've lived in China. We know challenge pitch tons of stuff that we just like let roll off our back and lots of again. Lovely people that we've met but but there was all these other things that have been really humbling and I think gaming humility is always a good thing because it makes you more empathetic and compassionate schnitt person towards yourself and other people that are having those same experiences but I think that the the thing that it really made us realize was that we were going to have to evolve as a couple that we were going to have to find find our path here on our own but also together and that we were GonNa have to find our way to strengthen and maintain our mental health in a different way and it's been a really a powerful experience in looking at where your priorities are what you truly need and what it means to migrate to different places. Do I think Bali needs more foreigners. You know straight up. No they should kick us all out. Do I think there are benefits sometimes having people migratory of course of course but I think again. It's it's been an eye opening experience On the impact. You have when you move to a place and the impact. That place has on you. Yeah so ah one one note before we get to the end. I spoke to a mutual friend of ours who will go nameless because she wishes to remain nameless she is from Hawaii a place you have lived and and she was telling her when I met. We're here in Beijing and telling her about our experiences here her is just like Oh my God. It's just like Hawaii. I would hate it. They're you just and Hawaii is a place. I've lived as well so what you say when you're saying that I'm just hearing her saying the same thing and I just can't wait till she comes down and you you guys can talk about how much this is. The things that are bad in Bali are like all the things that are in Hawaii right right so we've been here for months. We got at least a year and three quarters to go or more. Maybe we're open to it but at least that what do we think. What's the verdict moving to Bali a decision that we made thumbs up up comes down moving to Bali a decision we made thumbs up comes down down so can I have more fingers than just my mom I? I'll start didn't come affreux break. I I need at least a couple of digits to explain how I feel the five star rating. You can't do yes or no. You gotTa have the gradations Dacians of ratings in two different things so I need category. This is not how the Internet works. You see how I work and the the Internet can deal with it. Well I'LL START I'll say thumbs up and I'll repeat the same reason I gave when I was on a bittersweet life which is I need to be uncomfortable. Yeah and yeah. I was super comfortable in Beijing and I was. I found this thing I wanted to do. With Migration Media and cross-border communications nations and trying to create a space where ex pats and migrants can create culture together. Bring us all closer together even though we're far apart that's what I WANNA do can't do that if I'm in a place where nine to five job and I know all the ropes. I don't have to work for anything. I need to be uncomfortable to force me to do some stuff and in that sense. I'm glad we moved here. Would I trade in some of the experiences. Yes but I'm actually because we're not fully through a lot of the stuff that we're still dealing with. It's Kinda hard to feel this way but I tend to look back at the hardships in my life and the stuff that I've overcome or survived through. Those are things that those mountains I've climbed those are things I can point to and say I accomplished that. Yeah I got through that and I feel like I'm not quite there yet but when we get I'm I'm almost there and when we do I'll be able to say moving to Bali. Ali and making the transition was a thing that I complex and combined that with the fact that I've been uncomfortable and it's helped me to learn how to do something new I'm it's a thumbs up for me. Yeah I'd say work-life Work Community Kids in my classroom teachers. I work with administration all of the people surrounding that aspect of my life. Two thumbs up they are beautiful l.. Incredible kind hardworking. You know there's always challenges no matter where you go different things but to fricken thumbs up as far as finding my grounding here Pinky oh sideways Pinky and pointing fingers TVD TV. What I mean relay wave TV the working on it still working on it? You GotTa get John That scooter generally opportunities for growth thumbs up like you said. I think that was a perfect perfect way to say it is those opportunities where you are. Uncomfortable are perfect moments for growth. That's why we came here and we are getting exactly what we came here for. Well let's leave it there for now because because we are gonNA come back next week with a special guest who's going to actually talk to us about some of the issues that we've talked about some of the stuff we have been going through. Help US maybe find new ways to think about it and maybe even tell us a little bit about ourselves. We haven't figured out yet which wouldn't be that difficult against I. Thanks so much reduced baby. We're GONNA turn the fan on this. Has Been A migration media production to learn more about the lives of international migrants and see our lineup of shows visit us at migration media dot net or look for us on twitter facebook and instagram.
Why the NBA (and So Many Other Companies) Cave to China
"American corporations including a few having to do with sports have joined the growing list of American companies who seem committed to appeasing the People's Republic of China and why is it that when companies virtue signal they so often seem to align with China Colson Center. I'm John Stonestreet this is break one more their false gods for breakpoint I'm John Stonestreet forty groups and forcing abortions on women cowardice in direct contrast the city of Prague suspended its sister city relationship with Beijing companies often lineup with Communist China in their virtue signaling what's because like China they see human beings as expendable compared fans in Washington DC had their pro Hong Kong signs confiscated while fans with similar signs at get this Philadelphia Seventy sixer game were kicked out unwillingness to make any kind of moral stand here standing stark contrast to their conviction all moral clarity back in two thousand sixteen when the NBA answer ships
S E5: China Will Be on Mars, and America Will Be an Island
"Welcome to twenty thirty eight the podcast where we interrogate the future in the future. China will be on Mars in America will be an island. Here's Burnham assays. The year is twenty thirty eight ninety years after the founding of the People's Republic following its century of national humiliation. China stood up became rich and elderly grew more and more powerful Belton road. It's economic monster pine he's now complete a bridge crossing the Caspian Sea two hundred kilometers from us. Average took manage tan has made ruled transport between Europe and China fast and easy changing all mental map, separating continent. Dramatically nuclear power spacecraft have been used for the first man Chinese Marshon mission. There is an you global political and economic order and China is at the center it will be about power and money. But more surprising, perhaps this is an order about values. You've values of modern Chinese civilisation. I m Burnham assigns. I am a former politician. I was a minister of European affairs in Portugal for two years. Now. I'm a writer and living in Beijing. I'm max read. Paris terrified or Chinese feature. But unable to see it clearly. So I think it might be good to start off by telling our listeners some of them may not know what the belts in Rhode initiative is exactly what it is. And what it aims to do since in your your sort of picture of twenty thirty eight. I mean, you sketched the infrastructure cheap. It's very very clearly, but what does the Belsen road initiative in? What was it conceived to achieve the Belton road is essentially a plan a master plan a big geopolitical NGO economic plan to transform the world to transform the world. Order the world political and economic order to give it a new content. Give it new values to give new principals give it new rules. But also, of course to place China at the center if you wanna look for an equivalent, and I've thought about this for a while. I think the idea of the west is the best equivalent to the Belton road. It's a metaphor. But it's meant to represent a certain political order. Where the United States where at the center the Belton road is a direct rival to the west. I mean, one thing that's interesting to hear you say that is that here in America, even people who are sort of decently news literate think of the belt road, basically is an infrastructure initiative that it's about building highways that connect and central Asia and Europe to China. So what's the relationship between those infrastructural components in the kind of political order that it envisions? And why do you think of it as much bigger and larger kind of set of political goals? Infrastructure is a means infrastructure is a way to start designing certain map to start connecting points to starting altering the political geography of continents, the Chinese don't think about infrastructure as being about connecting two points. They think about it as a complete comprehensive development plan when do you think about a port? They think about the city there's going to be next to the port and industrial area. There's going to be next to the city, and they think about division of labor immediately. What is this Syrian this port going to produce can connect with another city and another port. So you start moving the pieces on the map, and the infrastructure is just the way of doing that. At the end you end up with a new economic order. And of course, who has the wealth who has the money can also dictate political terms. It is first of all about trade, and in particular to organize these very complex production chains, which is gonna have the most high value segments of the. Production chain and he's going to distribute the rest worldwide you need infrastructure for this. But the political will political capacity. The political influence is really the core of the initiative. So I think it's always good to start with the infrastructure, but we have to be very careful not to stop there. It's only the beginning of the story. That's looking at it from the perspective of the toppling of one superpower and the sort of essential another. But there's also some logical components, right? It's not just a matter of China seizing the sort of top position. They also want to change the way that business and politics is is done in the world, right? So I think the form the the basic structure is not that different from let's say the American empire of the last one hundred years, the content the values that are central to to the initiative into the plan are very different. I've thought about this. And I've I've I've come come out come up with this expression. The Belton road will be a world of soothsayers saints and spokes and let me take very quickly each by turn. I think it will be a world turn to the future with people trying to guess what? The future will be like people trying to transform the future technologists of all kinds. That's what I see in China right now, it will be a world where more relations will be more important than they are now which will feel that it deserves gratitude from other countries that other countries had to respect the power that China has it will be very moralize. And finally, you will be very opaque the idea. Is of the alignment of transparency of public reason public accountability those won't be central anymore. This will be a world very similar to the security clearance levels of let us say the department of defense in the United States. Some people will know everything that is happening. There's will know only a bit others will know nothing. It will not be talked about openly in the newspapers that's already drew, by the way, someone researching and writing on the Belton road has a hard time getting to the core of the information we need, and it will only get worse from that point of view. I'm interested in where we are sort of right now with the Belton road. What what stuff has been built what the plan over the next twenty years will look like. And if you think there's a sort of particular tipping point that will affirm what you're saying that will make it clear in a way that it hasn't become clear yet that China is leading this global new political world order five years in. In there. Still isn't a lot of detail. There are muster plans of different kinds individualized by country in many instances, and now it's the second stage has to do with concrete projects a few are already being developed, but not so many. So I know you say the plans are not well known that there's some masterplans, but if the kind of the basic bits of it, according to Xi Jinping have been set out. What what's what can we expect to come? Like, what what other projects what other ideas? What others have moved China might make can we expect to come over the next twenty years another way to put it would be how do we track? What's happening, and what would be the important developments that would allow us to say, it's working or not working? I think different kinds of things if one country started to show signs of economic growth and development, and it was very clear that this was due to the Belton road. One could think of Pakistan, for example, or Kazakhstan that. That would be a turning point where one could say could say it's working if China has a breakthrough moment in some important technology put Nick moment of some kind. Then one could say the strategy of moving to the top of the value chain of the global value chain is also working if there is a major infrastructure project that really captures the imagination of people worldwide. There's now this road this bridge, of course, in Lincoln mccowan, Hong Kong, but something even at a higher level. I think all these things would would be important milestones. And we we still don't have one that has been able to capture people's imagination in this way. Can I ask you to speculate? A little bit about what Sputnik moment might be for China. I've been spending a lot of time visiting companies in artificial intelligence, and I see some very interesting things happening here on the side of innovation and research, but also underside of just getting those ideas, very. Quickly into the street and into people's habits. This is already very visible in in any major Chinese city. If we have a really significant development in artificial intelligence or in bioengineering with really significant augmentation for human capacities. I think in one of these two wary as we are going to see something within the next five or ten years is gonna make front pages everywhere and kind of scare Americans. Probably Jan just as it happened with put neck, I think in that sense. I expect history to repeat itself, and then we're going to be see support of activity from the United States. So you don't imagine that the US will sort of respond to the ascent of China the way that Britain responded to the center of the US and just sort of stand aside, you think that they'll be a a period of intense rivalry looks more like intense rivalry. That's what I would have guessed. And in the last year has shown this I see that kind of accommodation in resignation. A lot in Russia. Russia is sort of accepted that China knows how to do comic growth in. Russia doesn't quite remarkable two years ago. They were still saying in Moscow we are going to follow. China's example now they've sort of given up China has the economic might we don't they say in Moscow. So we see that example in the case of Russia in the case of the US. No, we will not going to see it. There's much more of a sense that here we have two completely opposite models and only one of them can survive. You think there'll be no time in the future when the United States will find it self functionally kind of client state of a Chinese superpower, you think America will always choose to see itself as a rival to China, even if that means sort of suffering the punishments of trying to be a rival too much more powerful country. Let me tell you what I think would be the the the the worst case scenario or the catastrophic scenario for the United States short of a major war would be for China to extend control over the old world Europe, Asia and measure parts of Africa and the United States become an island an island on the shores of of this immense supercontinent controlled by China. You would become very peripheral perhaps life would still be comfortable, but he would have no voice outside. It's it's boarders. And it will really be relegated to to the state as of of a marginal island, which by the way is kind of how it appears in Chinese maps of. The Belton road because the map simply ignore the United States. It's on the reverse side of the map. It has these appear in the rest of all these they're meant to be controlled by China to mention, you know, one catastrophic outcome of this would be war between the US and China. I mean, how likely is that we're talking about the, you know, the US obviously seen China's a rival superpower a moment that really spooks the the Americans and China, obviously, there's sort of no looking back for it at this point, it it sees the prize here. I mean, how likely is this actually this escalates into open armed conflict between China the United States. I think conflict between China and the United States is to some extent inevitable, then we have to ask what kind of conflict, and I also happen to think that conflict in the twenty percent or he's going to be very different. It will be not open mostly non-military, although he could have. Devastating consequences, but it will be focused on things like infrastructure trade, the internet and the war of ideas. So when we say conflict is on your eyes and doesn't necessarily mean war in the traditional twentieth century meaning of the time. But it means something like a trade war, which we already have. And if you if you could get you out a little bit for us, the war of ideas, part of that you mentioned earlier that, you know, some some aspects of what life sort of under an empowered Chinese regime would look like soothsayers saints and spokes right? That sort of seems intuitive to me as a picture of life in China or directly under Chinese rule. But I'm curious how you see the appeal of the Chinese worldview being pitched to parts of the world that have been put last half century or so turning towards this out of the United States, and how it might come to be that China would sort of bring them into their orbit. Is it just a matter of the economic opportunities that they offer or is there some kind of ideological appeal as well, I think there's a there's an ideological appeal which you don't find anywhere else. I don't think that Russia has a particularly plausible powerful appeal to anyone into west, but China does it starting to have. And in my opinion. It's bays on this idea of the future openness towards the future. I'm here in Beijing. And part of the reason is I wanna see some of these developments that are happening a lot faster here in China than in the west. And lots of people are going to be attracted to this idea that in order to see the future you have to come to Beijing Chen. There's a lot of leads a lot of truth in this partly also because we into west are now. So paralyzed we have lost his appetite for the future. We have become very afraid of technology. So I can see a time not that far off ten or twenty years in the future where young people in Europe, particularly in Europe. But also in the United States will be attracted to the science fiction civilization that that that is a growing China, and it's not a coincidence that in fact, when you think about the appeal of Chinese ideas outside China's borders one area that has made spectacular progress is science fiction young people all over the world reading Chinese science fiction. There's something to this China, and he's increasingly appropriating the future and the idea of the future. Personally, I feel that. Appeal myself. I'm I'm not sure that I'll ever get all the way to living over there. But I think about it a lot the thing that pulls me back is that there's so many features of life in China that seem frankly terrifying. I mean, all of the surveillance digressive chevelle say there, you know, the the concentration camps and Xinjiang as the kind of most extreme version of the upstate terror there. But I think a lot of people in the US in particular ah decade or two decades ago might have thought well at some point China will be the preeminent world power. But for them to get there. They'll have to become much more comfortably westernized, they'll become a China that looks more like the US just four five times bigger. But it seems less five years, especially they've taken a much more authoritarian turn had you see that playing into the sort of science. Action appeal to non-chinese, do you think it'll be a an impediment or do you think it's sort of part of the time fiction bargains that the science fiction movies that we like they are still in some sense on day. You know? You gonna say. Runner is is a nice pleasant place to to spend your holidays. Hope part of it is going to be part of the bargain. Other part China will have to if China wants to be successful and to build a world empire. Some things that you talked about we'll have to appear, and I think they they will eventually they haven't already realized that that it is hurting their ability to replace the United States and appeal to people's hearts all over the world. But of course, you know, we've seen this in our own history nineteenth century Europe early. Twentieth century America were places where you paid a high price for having a new future and China now, he's very willing to pay that price. One thing you see immediately in Chinese that. There's not a lot of concern about the impact of technology on jobs because the impact will be felt by the two hundred and fifty or three hundred million migrant workers, which are in some respect all the part from the. Middle class and the middle class. Simply does not see these people what they see is the positive effect of technology, and they don't even have any understanding of the car, they won't pay them. And of course, the migrant workers, they have no political influence, and they will be readily sacrificed to this process of capturing the next strategic technology of the. I'm sort of interested in the question. I mean, we're talking about soft power here. You know, the US has always exercised soft power best through sort of mass, popular media and culture through Hollywood through pop music, obviously, China has huge movie and music industries, but they have had mixed success sort of breaking out of the Chinese markets. And I'm wondering if you think that is something that they care about them. And it's going to change something that's going to have to change for them to sort of realize successor looking to to achieve. Yes, I think it will be slow. It's always slow. This is the most difficult part of the process of becoming a superpower, I told you before that there's one interesting phenomenon of science fiction, which is really being read everywhere, and he's sort of the most powerful science fiction the world right now, I met a science fiction writer today earlier today here in Beijing. And I asked her precisely. That I after Europe created new cultural forms in the nineteenth century America, created jazz and rock and roll in the twentieth century wars, China creating that can appeal to the whole world in the same way that these art forms appeal to the whole an answer was this new variety of talk shows that exist in China that everyone watches where everything can be talked about for hours on end. I've checked them out. They are different from American talk shows, and they are more unpredictable. Anything can come up. They are mixture of a talk show in a reality show, but still I wasn't entirely convinced. And of course, there's the obstacle of language cinema. Hasn't been particularly successful contemporary art has and there's a huge contemporary art scene in Beijing that are very much like to to to see and to witness. So there's progress in some areas, but this is clearly more difficult than the rest. I mean, speaking of the language barrier. This is this is always on China's going to have to overcome is using to making Mandarin replace English as the sort of lingua franca of the world. Yes. But there's a lot happening there as well. Let me give you an if you examples I traveled two years ago. He knows Becker STAN, and it was already fifty fifty between people signing up for mentoring classes in English classes, and he wouldn't necessarily think that it was Becker's town is not part of Chinese cultural sphere. It's become quite normal for a westerners to at least speak a little bit of mandatory. I've noticed that people in Beijing sometimes now actually expected at least a little bit. And that was not the case when I started coming to China fifteen years ago, there's there's a renewed interest in Mandarin. And I would not be surprised. In fact, I find it almost inevitable in some countries. We didn't ten or fifteen years Mandarin will be more popular than English one sort of word or or a few words that haven't come up once in this conversation, so far communism Marxism, and I'm wondering. The extent to which you see Marxist or Leninists values or Maoist us for that matter sort of as a component of the ideology of of the road initiative of the new Chinese superpower, you know, you you mentioned almost Confucian values. Veasley Marxism is also kind of deeply moral politics in some way. And I'm sorry. I'm just interested in what role communist politics play in this. It plays a big role. And you see it everywhere you see Marx's men, communism everywhere in contemporary China. But it has to be let me put it this way, you need to have red marks actually at least a little bit of it. It's not the marks of of the sort of journalistic marks Marquesa that we associated with the communist minutes of union or in Cuba. It's not that marks the marks that. For example, talked about technology as the driver of history. That's true of China today. It's the marks that always thought in terms of social changes and not individual changes for marks idea that Steve Jobs. He's going to change the world. He's laughable and for Chinese leaders. It's laughable, but it's not laughable for us. We actually believe that the individual can change history. Not for marks. It's also. The idea that that Easter has different stages. So there are important. It's it's the idea that the economy is more fundamental than ideas. And that ideas will eventually follow economic power. There's lots of Marxist ideas. Let me give you a final example the idea that there's an international system of power, which dictates your fate economically as a nation, and that you have to change the global system in order to rise to the top. We don't quite believe in this. It seems to us that everyone can do their own thing and be successful. But of course, for marks and for contemporary Chinese leaders, you need a sort of a worldwide revolution to change your economic fate. And that's what about road is about is about bringing about a worldwide revolution. So to answer your question directly. I actually see Marxism everywhere in in contemporary, China, but he's just not not the communists of documents. Stories about life in Cuba or in the Soviet Union or North Korea. Well, I one thing that I wanted to get to that. We don't have to go into too much depth than that. I was I was in your in your conversation. The conversations we've been having running up to the show. I was interested in this sort of picture of life sort of hints of pictures of life as an American and Chinese dominated world, or as the or as a European say in one of the things you mentioned was that sort of games we play based on euro American archetypes like Cowboys and Indians are going to be replaced by Chinese cultural archetypes, and I was just wondering if you could talk like, so, you know, in one vision of his future, you have kids who are playing Cowboys and Indians that are playing journey to the west or they're playing sort of Chinese legends and stuff. I was wondering if you talk about that a little bit. Yes, I think that's as striking way to put it. Let me say, however, that I don't think the penetration of this Chinese world, or there will be entirely universal, by the way, the west was never really able to penetrate. China. It's not like Chinese kids playing Indian in Kabul is in one of the striking things about traveling Chinese precisely seeing that these archetypes which are present everywhere in Russian Brazil in South Africa. I'm not present in China. So it may be the case that this Chinese archetypes will not be able to penetrate the midwest or southern Europe or provincial towns in Germany, but that doesn't quite matter. Because if they are universal if most of mankind which by that time will be as wealthy as as as many countries in the west if most of mankind is attracted by these archetypes, those that are not will feel like the Chinese failed two hundred years ago, increasingly on the margins of history, not understanding what is happening or best case scenario just watching what is happening, but not participating. I think that would be almost as bad or one could argue even worse than. Than to be absorbed by the Chinese archetype Bruno. Thank you so much for joining us. This has been a sobering discussion. And and we really appreciate it. Thanks, greg. Thank you so much fun. All right, David. Let's talk about the likelihood of Bruno's prediction, how likely do you think that this is going to happen? I sort of I two minds about I think my American pride and western like innate western just biases me against it a little bit. I mean, obviously, China is a growing economic Pima say have these grand geopolitical aspirations, and you know, certainly at least of less years and probably over the last couple of decades the US has been in a bit of retreat. But I still when I think forward I still can't quite get my head around like while. I'm still middle aged that the world will be really operating in a Chinese image. And I I'm sure that's my own prejudice rather than like really logical thinking about like the grand just Arkell narratives that play. But I have to. I just think like. They shot themselves in the foot before. I I sort of I sort of hand imagine a seamless a at least two happening so quickly. Even though I see all the writing on the wall and see it as a totally logical conclusion of the way things are heading now. It's hard to say. I mean, it's the kind of thing where it seems the next say five years are going to be to me at least seem feel like they're going to be extremely important to figuring out. Exactly how the new sort of the world order is gonna shake out over the next twenty years. You know, as is this is Ray wing pipe to me part of this question. Not just about this China have it's shit together to do it because it certainly seems to have its together more than it's had in the past. But it's also does the west have it's shit together to to sort of to to slow. This rise to fend it off in some way. And I think, you know, the the elections of the next decade are going to be very important to determining whether or not that is in fact, the case, I thought this was it seems credible to me. I mean, I think that in many ways, this is like Bruno's take his exactly what the Chinese government would like to hear or or, you know, not what they would like to hear in the sense that they that. They're so eager to be listening to our podcast, though. Oh, I hope they are. You know, I think this is like this is the Chinese plan. And I think that it's it's a pretty good one that that especially, you know, the the way they think about relating infrastructural projects to global power is like it's not a new insight, but they seem to be doing better than anybody else's right now. And so to the extent that that sort of altogether forms a coherent vision of how the future might play out. I think it it's it strikes me as extremely credible. It seems like the thing that's really sticks. With me is you know, his his repeated emphasis, which I'm sure is earned through experience of China's faith in the future. And, you know, just think of like, you know, Peter Teal's line about flying cars, and Robert Gordon and the end of growth, and I do think that like as much as we are enamored of our little like devices in the west we actually don't really think that the world can change all that much. We think it can get a little bit better. And maybe like people who are like a little bit worse off. We'll get a little bit better off. But the kinds of dramatic world changing transformations that we used to not just imagine. But then like put into practice put it, you know, make real just doesn't really seem to be a part of our culture anymore, and it's sort of a contrast to to see in China. The opposite happen. Thing where nobody has much. For the past at all. They're just like excited to see what the future can do for them. You know? But I think that's it's you know, we talked a little bit with him. But it is interesting to think about it in terms of. In terms of climate in particular, like the the superpower astride, the world's responsible for every inch of our infrastructure. They're also going to be like blame if that infrastructure fails. Or if it, you know, contributes to widespread suffering through, you know, like, I think. They're pouring more concrete in China than the US port in the whole twentieth century every three years and concrete is like a mirror, and you know, there's so many things about what they're doing that are making the planet worse off as they're trying to sort of seize ownership of it. And while there are inevitably going to be economic opportunities there. I also wonder about some kind of like global backlash to a what is seen as a. Self interested empire in the west is always been putting forward as a in a way that was cleared outsiders, self deluded. But there was like a the delusion was the. The west was not just acting at a self interest. But out of broader principle, and you know, to to like expand on his point about this sort of moral politics of China to if that if that self interested empire, and the building infrastructure is connected in a very explicit rhetorical way to gratitude, and you know, sort of debt some sort of moral debt that that obviously is not going to you know, that that is not a great way to kind of form to to wield soft power. Let's say, but you know, I mean, even to your point about climate change. There's also a chance becomes a sort of pure victory that you you become the global superpower globe that that nobody wants to live on anymore or that nobody can live. Really? So they could be they could be those. They could be like to the rest of the world. Which would be like that would be amazing like history lifter. Yeah. We'll speaking of this. Let's talk about how terrified we are. How scared are we of the Chinese world order? Well, you know, he's he's like most extreme scenarios still has like the US basically sunk shooting as like northern Europe now like sort of like outside of the ties of history, but like still doing relatively well maturely comfortable. So in a practical sense, I'm not so sure like how scary it would be for the world to be run by the Chinese. I really skit for us scary for a lot of people. For that state to have even to be even more empowered and have even more grandiose visions of its role in the world. And I expected it would also be bad for, you know, citizens of these sorts of like client states, and who have some relationship to Chinese power and can't even count on their own. You know, the sort of the integrity of citizenship to protect them. So, you know, I think that I think that there is a possibility that China becomes both the world's most powerful country, and like the world's poorest place to live which is kind of funny like we tend to think in the west at least we tend to think that liberalization goes along with prosperity. And is like, you know, another test case of that. Yeah. I mean, one thing we didn't really get into in this talk that I wish we had is that, you know, the US has never not been a nation or a state that didn't have sort of construct itself along racial lines. But it still has this kind of fantasy of being a non racial. It's a, you know, it's a it's a constitutional state that's about membership, and and citizenship and belief. It's not it's not ethnic. And I know that the the in China has a more complicated relation to that. And the relationship between the. Ethnic minorities in China. And the the Han majority is fraught in ways that are different. And maybe I don't know are are more difficult to sort of like see forward. I mean, I'm sort of. I'm waiting out of my depth here or into the depend. Context we have this like this just absolutely horrific racial past. But you can't if you look at it squarely, you can't see it as anything, but like a model about the nation, right? Whereas in in the, you know, take slavery out of the equation. And it's just like a kind of status hierarchy that operates alongside class and nationality thousand other status hierarchies that are competing in the modern world. And you know, it becomes a lot harder to be offended by those by those like slights, and like relative relations, even if there's like a concentration camp with two million liters, and it seems like there is which is really horrible. You don't you can't really imagine like a national reckoning with that issue. And even if America's reckoning has been, you know, partial at best and slow and reluctant like, you know, they still peach about the slave trade in elementary school. And like, you kinda can't imagine Chinese kids about the weaker concentration camps. No. And the plus the idea, you know, going back as far as the Monroe doctrine. The idea has always been the US the empire. The, you know, the this is there's actually something sort of you could see why why the the the insistence on a particular kind of international politics sort of works for the US because you can sort of pretend that that the US empires actually about liberating people, and you sort of come up with this great beautiful story about how you know, the US just spreading freedom is the birthplace of freedom and democracy. And it's not spreading it everywhere else and an imperial power. That is based that is like sort of strictly that that you know, that has a an enormous core of a of a of a huge ethnic population. That is envisioning itself, as you know, generously bestowing upon other nations, you know, these infrastructure projects, and so on is one that is going to have its own like very real problems with you know, the. Same problems that every colonial imperial power has ever sort of faced. And you know, so like, I I suppose we're still talking about terror here. So I I agree with you. And I think that like the the terror really depends on where you are. And what your what your nation or what your community is offering to China, and how it's offering it, you know, in all honesty, like, I think it's probably in in. I think there's there's there's many different ways it's plays out. But if you can have a kind of stable, bipolar multipolar global community, it might actually be better for the world that the US has in in very obvious. And now extremely well-documented ways not been universally positive force in in global affairs and put it put it mildly and one in which, you know, no matter how how bad we we know China has China's state has acted that one in which there are multiple competing or or cooperating global superpowers is one in which you know, maybe. The poor people are less bad off that third world countries are developing countries are less bad off. You know, I think that there's like their if social change is going to accompany the belt and road initiative in evolves. A transfer of wealth from say Renteria class capitalists to the global poor that seems like basically in unequivocally good thing, but you know. It's they're like imposing, you know, it's like, they're imposing debt structure on countries that are like, you know. And I don't know. I mean, I I'm sure that like those highways are going to be good. But I also feel like does people are going to be like. No, you're right. That's true. I mean, like, I this is this is also sort of I well, let me put it the the one the one last thing that I should that. I that I was noting in this conversation that I kept thinking about is that, you know, the the technological changes is coming like whether or not we kind of like it. It seems at this point more or less inevitable that that that the way that the devices we use the internet that we're on is going to shape the twentieth century, national global, politics and the country that is able and willing to sort of use it in a concerted and coherent way is one that's going to be really well positioned to dominate. And so that speaks is sort of likely that like the fact that China embraces the future in this way. I think is something that that the US is going to have a lot of trouble figuring how to compete with. But what really scares me, the biggest the terrifying is that I'm not sure that the technology that is already kind of developed in being developed and. And the technology that is going to shape and dominate the world over the next hundred years to engineers is technology that that that that a state that masters that technology is a is a surveillance state. It's as state that is that is focused on using that tack to sort of like dominate its people. And so you know, that that that's a to me, that's a way all this stuff is tied into gather. And that I the one thing that does scare me is even if the US becomes sort of peripheral to global order, and even if you know, the the we're still pretty well off, and we still make pretty good movies. And like, you know, they're celebrities that we own that. I mean, this is. I was just I was just in Norway. And I kept looking at these Norwegian tabloids. And I was like, oh, there are Norwegian celebrities people that they that they carry this. The most important thing that we retain arts of some some level of, you know, at home celebrity, but the point is that, you know, we might sort of lose or or have we might still have all those things. But if our government says looking at China and saying like, this kind of mass surveillance mass, facial recognition technology. You know, is is what's necessary to have an edge that that that has considerably bad knock on affects to us. Now, it doesn't even have to be trying. They could look at you know, London could look at England and say, oh, actually having surveillance cameras on every street corner is a good thing. And I know that there are plenty of people in the US who don't mind that. But I'm a little wary of the idea that China could edge the US on technology in that way. And but edge it in a way that I am deeply uncomfortable with. This was a really fascinating conversation. Thank you to Bruno messiahs for joining us from Beijing. If you are interested in reading more from Bruno messiahs, his book, dawn of Eurasia on the trail of the new world order is out already and coming soon is belt and road the scene use of Chinese power. To hear more predictions from us subscribe to twenty thirty eight and check us out at NY MAG dot com forward slash two zero three eight this podcast was produced by Aniko in association with New York magazine, editor is David Haskell and editor in chief is Adama's. I'm max read. That's David Wallace wells in the future.
Off The Hook - Dec 04, 2019
"Three expand and let them use it be driving enter a world of color and keep on thinking free. ECLECTIC mix WCHS abusing ninety nine w New York and streaming. WW GOT A and you're listening to a radio station W. B. A.. I in New York. The time is eight o'clock and that means it's time once again for another exciting edition of off the hook. Wow Midstream how did that happen. Let's try that again. Talk now it would uh-huh uh-huh Yeah the author it took and and the very good evening fair rides program is off the hook as we broadcast mar new Atlantic Avenue Studios Welcome. Everybody is menu. You're GONNA join tonight. Wow so we're going to have repeating themes that presented the deal today. See things are still all right. That's enough on thank you sorry. We're still working out the kinks and there are plenty of kings here in the studio. But we're doing okay. So manual joined tonight by Alex. A hold on. I don't have you microphone up there right now. Good evening okay. So many microphones in here. Kyle Hello Robbie firefly is not here. Okay good good so we won't use that microphone. That went off Voltaire. You're here hi oh all right so we gotta we gotTa Pretty Pretty full studio almost what did you say it out. Loud Kyle I can't read sign language. Yes I I'm having some distortion as anyone else enjoying the distortion nine. Perhaps if you're listening to the sound of my own voice I'm not enjoying any all maybe I can handle that Somehow ensure right. I'm hearing a little bit of. Yeah I'm not and the only thing that matters the listeners are you talking about social distortion or or oral only. have an hour folks only one hour and it's an important show because we have some some rather disturbing things to talk about and Involves a friend of ours. Someone who's been on on these radio waves saves someone who's been on our conference someone's been published in the magazine and as has happened for too many times in the past. They are the victim of overzealous prosecution and More disturbing more disturbing than any of that is seeing the reaction the reaction action from not only the American public in general but from people in our community who basically are buying lock stock and barrel everything that is being said. Oh update you on what's going on. Here's the headline as it was released on Friday from the Manhattan. US Attorney's office Manhattan US Attorney Announces Arrest Of the United States citizen for assisting North Korea innovating sanctions. Yeah Jeffrey Berman. United States attorney for the Southern District of New York John Denver's the Assistant Attorney General for National Security. We only did this all their names. But basically they they announced the unsealing of a criminal complaint charging Virgil Griffith a United States citizen with violating the international emergency economic powers. act known as the I.. The EPA by traveling to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea in order to deliver a presentation and technical advice on using crypto currency blockchain technology to evade sanctions gray. Who was arrested at Los Angeles International Airport on Thanksgiving Day and will be presented in federal court in Los Angeles? Saturdays have them. We can update on what's going on there but as alleged Virgil provided highly technical information to North Korea area. Knowing that this information could be used to help. North Korea launder money and evade sanctions in allegedly doing so griffith jeopardize the sanctions that both Congress and and the president have enacted to place maximum pressure on North Korea's dangerous regime attorney Esera General John Dimmer said despite receiving warnings not go griffith. Allegedly traveled to one of the United States is foremost adversaries. North Korea where he taught his audience how to use blockchain technology to evade sanctions by this complaint. We begin the process of seeking justice for such conduct. Well it goes on quite a bit but but the shocking thing here is Is what the FBI is doing and the allegations that are being made against him In addition to what we actually know that what we know is that he did in fact go to North Korea This spring in fact he's been been in New York. We've talked to him Since he he visited there I was very worried when he went there. Because you know you worry when people got North Korea I've been to North Korea. It's a scary place because it's unlike anything you've ever seen before and people if they do something stupid can get in a lot of trouble and sometimes again a lot of trouble even if they don't do something stupid it's a it's a risk. But in the hacker world. This is something that people delight in sometimes exploring the unknown trying something different but the thing with Virgil is that he was always upfront about what it was he did and yes. He knew that he violated trump's decree. And when I say that I mean it was completely legal to go to North Korea as a United States citizen before trump decided that it wasn't trump and his oil executive friend REX Tillerson. These are the people that decided that nobody should be allowed to go to North Korea. Okay he was always upfront about the fact that yes he went anyway. He does something else so he does something that A lot of people don't do and that's ask permission first and I imagine he did that because he couldn't imagine in being denied permission and when it was denied permission I guess and again this is conjecture on my part. I guess he just thought this not that big a deal. You know people go all the time people from other countries go all the time so okay. It's like Jaywalking or something. I'll just go to this conference because it sounds like an interesting conference and plus the other factory this. He lives a Singapore. He's lived in Singapore for years in Singapore in Asia and to have somebody body back home. Say No you're not allowed to walk over to this part of Asia. You have to follow the rules. Okay you know yeah their rules and he broke the rules that that is without any question. What really shocked me though? Because the last time I saw him was today he talked to the FBI. He went in voluntarily. He don't talk to them on his own without a lawyer. That was the first thing I said was a big mistake. Please go with the lawyer. I don't usually say that. No offense Alex but I I usually don't tell people go with lawyers avoid lawyers. It's generally a good idea to have one when you're talking too long and I'm very happy to have you literally at my right hand side right now. That's right but you're not representing the just basically in the studio correct. Yes just to make make things less complicated crystal clear. So Yeah Yeah. I saw him that night afterwards and he had talked to then. I was very worried all day. Because I hadn't heard from him. He had been talking to them for a while he he went on his own. He could've skipped down. He could have just gone back to Singapore and Wouldn't have been a huge deal but he talked talk to them because he wanted to tell the truth he wanted to be honest. He didn't feel he had anything to hide. And he had this conversation with them and what. They told him him when he left was they're not going to pursue it because it wasn't that big a deal. He gave them North Korean newspapers. He showed them pictures he basically. I was so happy that they got why he went there and shared his enthusiasm and realized that he wasn't up to anything nefarious. Yes that he was a good person and then six months later this crap comes out where not only really do they decide to charge him with violating the rule that everybody agreed he had violated but the pilot all this additional material that makes them seem like an enemy of the state makes them seem like some kind of a traitor and that is why so many people online and in all kinds of places. These are saying Oh yeah they should hang it now. It's it's one thing to read comments on a news story about various things going on in the world but when it's a friend of yours and you're seeing people calling for him to be executed when you know. He isn't capable of doing anything that he's being accused of on that level. It is really scary. It is more Orwellian than I prepared to handle. I can handle Walian by this. This is too much so so by saying that by by by making it seem like because he went to North Korea and went to a conference and talked about cryptocurrency currency that he somehow was giving away all kinds of what trade secrets giving them Services and products and things. It's like that somehow that is violating the sanctions. And that is that is basically helping Kim Jong Un. Basically he went to Kim Jong UN's house and and hung out with him and told him all the secrets of how to do things and evade sanctions. When nothing of the sort happened at all he went to a conference? He gave a talk. So basically you're charging somebody as an enemy of the state for traveling because I don't know what it is about this country country but we sort of have the feeling that we can travel places without being told we're not allowed to go there and speaking. That's another thing about this country Kinda told that we're able to speak freely famous speech. Imagine that those are the two things that you can prove that he did. He traveled and he spoke. Everything else is wild fantasy and if you know him you know they cannot tell a lie. You Know Oh that he is basically somebody who loves to explain. Things loves to share love to have adventures. That is the person we're talking about on to see him. Being being displayed like this by our own government is really frightening. I was afraid for him when he went to North Korea. I was not afraid for him when he came to the United States. I should have been and that. That is the real sadness and all of this. Let's take a step back for a moment to to and I think this whole situation deserves a little more context as well as I'm absolutely I'm I'm thinking in particular something that you said Emanuel You said the virtual is a good person right known him. How many years Gosh Probably about twenty. Maybe maybe more maybe less since since he was essentially a probably a teenager. Yeah right probably late teens are imagine. Now let's let's add some additional context as it was probably a smart teenager. Somebody curious exploratory. You know he's a hacker wicky scanner. That was he's he's been on on this on this show wiki scanner was something that that basically monitored wikipedia and Basically you told you what office somewhere. What congressional office was modifying page about a particular person or concept It was it was a great service. Got A lot of media attention. He was on the Colbert report. Fact and got it was in Some kind of a hacker house on a reality show not not the best thing in the world to do. I don't think they just loved having fun. You know he was. He was an adventurer and somebody who always told like it was He was also pretty serious. Dude too I mean I. I didn't know that he had a PhD from Caltech. You know that that's something that came out that I didn't I didn't know at all about him. And so this is somebody you don't get a PhD HD from the Caltech without being you know a pretty heavy and serious hitting intellectual here so he never talked down to people though. That's that's the thing. He would always explain if you asked him to explain something you might have to allocate a little bit of time for him to go go through everything and explain it but he would always explain and he wanted a good conversation. You know so I mean this is a guy who who started out it'd be He. He's a hacker right. He has this mentality. He has this ethos does he wants to learn about things. He's working as a special projects director for the Theorem Foundation. He's based out of Singapore PhD. From Caltech I think he's from Alabama Alabama originally that this is a guy who You know is really going places and doing things. He gets invited to this conference in Pyongyang and he tries to go through the proper channels in order to get authorization to go there. I mean one thing I think we we do have to acknowledge here. Is that If the allegations in the complaint are true He did break the law going to North Korea and he knowingly did that he knowingly. Did that people do that all the time. I'm not minimizing Meisingeth. For God's sake this is a trump decree we're talking about. It's not a law that it's been in place for ever and ever it's been in place the last couple years and it probably won't be in place when he's out right now just to put it in context yes virgil admitted to this straight off the bat. He walked into the office and said yes. I did that right but you know. What the law was and what the low will be not what the law currently is or was when he went to North Korea so we we can all agree that he broke the law when he went to North Korea? But this sir you could like this to the sanctions on travel to Cuba. I mean they were. They were loosened we we reestablished diplomatic relations and then the administration changed reached positions Over the course of a couple years right parallel to give to give you an example so when I lived in Vermont Some of my neighbors Barbara and Wally Smith by the way that he They traveled to Cuba and they wrote a book about bicycling through Cuba cycling through Cuba and they sold this book and because they were in Cuba and they were violating the sanctions laws. The State Department came after them but they didn't try to prosecute them criminally for this. They came after them civilly civilly and they tried to disgorge the prophets of the book and the Center for Constitutional Rights stepped in and defended them and was able to have this entire lawsuit by the State Department dismissed. So I think you'd get exactly where I'm going here too. I think you're anticipating Kyle. Because we can all agree that he broke the law in he knowingly broke the law when he went to North Korea. But that's where where I think. The agreement with the government ends here. Because I've read this complaint many times and what else is being alleged. All seems seems to hinge on what was said at the conference and the intention that Virgil had in going there and from my knowledge and and reading and and getting the context around this it does not necessarily seem like there was any transfer of knowledge. That could not have been googled. A have about blockchain or about cryptocurrency. And we have this concept in the law and I think this is probably what what Virgil was alluding to with Emanuel. which is that you know? Virgil that everything was fine because nobody thought it was a big deal that he went there and he talked about this back in. May because of this concept known as Dominion on Curate LEX which is this old legal maximum? which delivery says the law doesn't care about trifles? We're not going to prosecute to the full extent of the law when you Jay walk across Fourteenth Eighteenth Street somebody like I mean. It's a trifle going over there to to to an extent right if he'd go home trump went over there for God's dilated his own damn law. Rodman Robin goes over. I don't know if he's been. Dennis Rodman predated this and and all that exactly well. That's what I'm saying. You know the laws that said was actually broken right and the rest of it. WHO's going to hinge on intent and the facts of what happened when we were over there? I agree to that but I think it's It's fair to say that there's a certain level of diplomatic schizophrenia. Ed Play here that is it really the law or is it going to change back. I mean it's so sort of unusual in in function that it's hard to even follow right. How do you plan a business? How do you plan to ease relations? When you can't predict whether in six months your business will be able to even be there and that was the thing with Cuba Walter? Yeah family is is really only going to be like a high level talk but and they might have like as what they said were the FBI people that they were gonNA knock price you him alive with is he's like once. They realized that they could use the word Cryptocurrency to a a lot more severe than actually is and they get they get free points in the press or sailing. Oh he's he's a factor and He's about to give them a cryptocurrency currency secrets and stuff and well. That's interesting yes because something happened in the six months since he had that interview and since they decided to go after. I JUST WANNA ask Alex you have you have a sense As to how it all ties together the FBI the FBI that that trump is always attacking They're behind this behind this this Prosecution Russian these accusations. How much control does the president have? Over what an agency like the FBI pursues and what they could pressure have been put on them by this administration. Do they operate completely independently in my guests here. Because I've I've never been a president of the United States not yet it. I don't think he would have any control over. You know what the southern district determines it's going to prosecute or not and what the F. B. I. is going to find a reasonable object. The prosecution he should have no reasonable input into these types of things and if he did I think that would be a major league problematic attic for all the reasons we've seen with respect to navy seals and and things like that he does appoint the director of the FBI does he does and couldn't he say to the director of the FBI. BE I. Hey you know like you to do this for me. That would be improper. It would be improper. Yes but if you if you put an improper person in charge you could probably do that. I'm not saying that's what's happening. I'm not I pushing conspiracy theories I'm just trying to balance everything out here and say why after six months did they suddenly decide to go after him. An add all these other things to change change. What we do know is in virgils overeagerness and honesty? I think to tell and show all of the details about what he did over there and what is intentions were because he must have in his own. Heart of hearts believed that he was truly in purely innocent. He gave his phone two F. B. I.. Agents for their review on or around I believe November twelfth of this this past month it seemed like after they examined his phone records. That was when they determined that they were going to prosecute him and that was very likely a mistake to willing to give consent to the FBI to search. Your phone. outweight went when he gave the phone to them. That was recently though that was not back in the spring. I believe that's right right but what happened to have to make them want to have a second interview with them in the fall after they had already talked to him in the spring the saints six months pass by And then they decided to do this I have. I have some some ideas but first I want somebody else into the conversation because When Virgil went to North Korea? He did not go along only went with a group and one of the people who went with him as Fabio Petra Asante from Italy who joins us now on the phone Fabio you there you're on and we have the right Fabio have you with us on that we have the right That's that's me and I want to hear me. Okay this either. This thing is not working gang or we don't have him on the phone. I'm sorry folks. This is a new studio and Apparently not everything is working and we might also have a problem with the phone. Well you're doing now I'll I'll check the phone. Oh ruminate a bit about about you know what I think is going on here and what I think this entire case inches on if we go back act a paragraph three of the actual complaint itself. I'm going to read the the literal language here and I'm going to say more loudly. The operative stuff that I think is really matter full here progress. It was further apart and object of the conspiracy that Virgil Griffith defendant and others known and unknown would and did evade evade and avoid an attempt to evade avoid the requirements of US law with respect to the provision of services to the DPRK eh in violation of various Federal Statutes Fifty USC section. Seventeen O five thirty one. St Afar section five ten to twelve eight A. B. in executive orders. One three four sixty six and one three seven two but it is that provision of services to the DPRK that I think is the operative language of this complaint. And I think is going going to be a real issue of fact for any fact finder determine whether or not there was a service that was provided to North Korea by this talk. How are we doing on the phone? I think we have in February with us. Good we got you back Fabio now you traveled to Hugh North Korea with Virgil Griffith Can you tell us Something about that trip. Well I suppose Saudi for my English perfect and because his suit Thursday. Yeah I'm hearing we apologize for the time you you mean Well consider that they read has been made by such a group who were less than than person and it was all. Thank you people basically into Seattle. Speak of making your own let's say three with the advantage of author so also going in our people are crazy place like North Korea about just for three days. I mean just to go there in different tweet. So the confidence itself. It's like a excuse I'm GonNa toss studios now like he should never be your eyes line and you say the conference was wanted to visit the county and so you lock ritual things together and Yeah and these these three Was I think one of the most of this topic And the Black Mirror of level expedient that the ear and I mean The conference itself was a totally boarding gets present I mean People are leaving the and you loser thinking like Western like Death on eleven conference or something like this it was like out of the womb. Would maybe the forty to sixty people We had known time or later. There was no problem at all to one up the most on the increasing program at all. Yeah I mean there was no program this I mean that. Just keep you India their first morning that you without being Korea and you see all your ability to their journey shallow hawkers. And they're the he they also say guys yet one mission to go a hormone altogether. Okay okay because you you understand that you are not county where you don't even have a diplomatic mission I mean so you have to be To stick to stick to some. I'm a rule ended up makes you just came back to this. Use A sippy consonant. It come Outta so that That well first of all and second materials. Why and the here? There is a very tricky story. When take all of these stories? Say until you feel. It's all totally including Co organizer of the concert and so The guy that leaving and the so called the F. participation shared a bunch of The current blockchain stuff with North Korea like paper on blockchain and fees. One third to Jill Commercial Brochure are looking station. The other state I don't know that we're maybe. I'll favor on blockchain and I I mean I bounce off totally are related stuff. That does insured damn. That's what the what they understood. They're like those are the topic we may speak about. What they did is considered that these these the sale of the conference so we found ourselves? You know so you reach of confidence without a program. That's not really him. Perspective fever was what does being provided an account and there were two days of conference to be done so just in the money we asked ourselves like okay guys we have today that show I mean with the Times on my own What should we do show speak? Nobody is he has to be a speaker so we end adopt saying the okay. Everyone shoes are shoes. A one of these the company material body and prepares I talk about it. We have the can we put a deal you know I know my been approved. It was later the North Korean and these are what you can speak about the concert so like myself. I ended up speaking about cocaine invasion of Taylor state. I don't know anything about this. There was such a and while you lie I mean how. Oh completely unorganized that the and really not sophisticated topic wars I was thinking. Also Slam US paying being about these Where People's leaping at this concert because you feel like a poodle Kartik nation that Coming towards international people coming and so they they send you people through to listen to the concert. But I feel that most of the people there one of one of the things that that Virgil said when he interviewed the FBI Supposedly was that he was asked to talk. DOC about how to evade the sanctions By somebody at the conference. There's no indication that he did that and the only the only way that the government is making this accusation is because Virgil told them that somebody asked him to do this was was there any talk of of of evading sanctions deeply. No I mean if you want to speak about what they've been saying shut up. UPC's breath so I really that's completely outside of Of The table and those of any any concept onset of worker being spoken there Because of I mean the the topic was Saddam does example material and Really not one of the off the point. Surely when you are in the breakfast in the morning bringing yourself always the same the same foods and so on it goes on you know off that day. Pretty Expedience. We've older people that were there that day. Participants were or people between thirty and thirty or less experienced people. Obviously we spoke. Come on ourselves. Also Yeah I mean what they will views blockchain for and the topic of science surely debated Among ourselves shortly. Because you're like hey he's heard that in Pyongyang the electricity blackout Lifetime to could be eight. They don't have enough electricity to turn on the light. You're in the evening. I mean you need to get into the context All of our county that From my experience they will each pool. He's under developed. A the last the try to express they deaconess you from the place worth You going at the National Library that the we've and you find windows. Xp Machine to search the book. I mean you'll be alive there. And probably not an authenticated copy either Bobby I had a question given Senate. There were approved topics. What your what was your sense of the expertise? I mean it was apparent. Right that I in other words I'm asking. Was it apparent to you that there was already a a level of familiarity and expertise amongst north speaking to With with blockchain particular well I feel that that Most of the people nothing to really know about. I don't think generally speaking what what is production so All of the dopey introduction. WHOA women's saying he was very boring easily because no one basically spoke about anything that we make that interesting ethical from an expedient people suspect is for most of the people a really after the basic condescending question all walked we have speaking about There were few people on the second day and the throws Deals for personal that off. Good this some more technical question but like a Waffler the defensively green now Threw for four can do for state and maybe through outside our to try to to To try to express a what's the effects explaining what the decide between proof of stake Jacaranda Rufa four. I've been being at what level knowledge It gives you the same of the technical proficiency the people around the topic so so fabio and thank you again for for being up so late and and talking with us we definitely appreciate shade it sort of entering into the areas that I wanted to ask you about here which shows that most of what was discussed their. If not all of Ed as I understand it it are things that you can just get from Google right that you you and and frankly probably use google translate to determine whether other you know you know the difference between proof of work proof of stake. You know it sounds to me like all of this was just very very surface. Fist level knowledge. That was being discussed here. you know sort of you know to give Glib understanding of blockchain could be gleaned from from any public source would that be a correct characterization of of what went on the Yeah Jeff and I want the one that line that When we least among ourselves the topic to speak about because we add that to speak about fell picker I to these documentation and real estate Hey I'd be better know anything about the real estate but we go back tale. We fired that our one dollars Reno the internet and went to Google and a little too so could evasion state. Hey did for our. WHO's having no well now? I have my goal. So that's the level right so so nothing complex. Nothing complicated you know you. Warren getting into the intricacies of you know how money moves around the network or is validated anything that would give anybody some nefarious ideas about how to use. Let's say a theory or any other crypto currency but that being that just impossible to speaker about a complex topic also because A unique to think of they now of the content. You don't have someone of spending again Lisa. And you don't paths a reality of laser fully means that You say Blah Blah Blah. Then you'll stop then the North Korea out of later translate to North Korea. If someone didn't on to that and saying the person tell you beckoning. Hey they didn't understand it and so you have to repeat it English and then the North Korea and I it's back and then And then you can move forward so so you understand that in a situation is even the best care. Communication is equal to explaining their complex dolphins. Even the best approve of four to screw. Then you save complicated because even if you have something that and we are complex called the unique simply communicating over suicides ways I mean I found myself in Sean on the speaker tweet. Politician advocating for deregulation on the use of Troja. I can I can imagine I mean the logistics of of the talk make. It seem like it's very difficult to get anything done. Let alone provide highly detailed technical knowledge about evading sanctioned mentioned But but let me ask you. This is more of a personal question for you Fabio. You are somebody WHO's involved with block chain crypto currencies. You've probably into a lot of other conferences. Would that be correct to say well. No I don't think from blockchain award and even Infosec Hawkers Environments and knowledge. You have you. Have you been to conferences like the CCC or or or hope or anything like that DEFCON. On the yes sure every year up well great so this is this is perfect. I'm just laying the foundation here for the next question in which is so if you were to compare the types of talks let let's say at Defcon or hope or CCC in the type of Knowledge College and detail that talked about those talks with what you guys discussed in North Korea. What how would you compare? Compare the two of them are are they. You know anywhere near the same level or is one of the level of of an infant a two year old level and the other one's in college college I mean what what are the relative types of detail between those two types of conferences Infosec conference and what happened to North Korea well the confidence level. I would not even consider that I call parents like a little we the introductory level topic for especially the If we can make on the Camparis is on a flight Baker airplane. They want you make the school there. Sousse are real vying airplane airplane. Because because I was very basic introduction Topic ready for High School. I don't know or going through. I'm not saying I know special. His confidence liking so they're welcome to the wonderful world of blockchain straight. I'll be okay. Let's just pause for a moment to Play a clip From from a show we did years ago. When Virgil was in the studio I shouldn't Virgil was on the phone? I'm sorry And this was a very a somber occasion for all of us because it was a couple of days after the suicide of Aaron Swartz Very good friend of virgils and someone who also shared A unique talent for Both mischief and knowledge and he had had been mercilessly pursued by the federal government for daring to Make published academic works available eligible to people published academic works that. The authors of those works wanted to to have available There's a lot of details to the case is plenty of information online but the fact of the matter is he was prosecuted for no good reason and for something that should never have been considered a crime and it was too much for him to take and that is something that I think a lot of us. Forget sometimes we we forget how how fragile at all is and to see this happening again to somebody else somebody who was a good friend of Erin's and It's just it's it's hard to watch. It's hard to realize that this is happening And and almost powerless to do something completely powerless list but somewhat powerless to do things about it. Anyway let's go back to January sixteenth. Twenty thirteen joining us on. The phone is Our friend Virgil Show Griffith from California. Good friend of Erin and somebody that has the same kind of spirit I think. Virtually with us here so You know it's for years. I know you're trying to introduce Aaron to me. I know that when you came into to New York it was. It was Aaron that you'd stay with and I just trying to picture the two of you conspiring and thinking together and boy the trouble that you could You could get into and this the amazing things you could accomplish it must. We're still trying to process it here but I can't even imagine what What it must be like you? You know in Well actually it was really No it was sad so I actually read about I in the New York time Right and I was just like what you know and I don't know it actually was kind of sitting that I read it all the time because I mean like like I mean because I would always read I mean I mean I will I hear about things About Aaron for from like the news so so I used to subscribe like Aaron Law But but and I emailed them your identified a few months. And then I I you know the thing that I was unsubscribe from his blogs. Because I didn't I didn't actually need separate said because it was redundant with with with all all my other news sources because everything he did made some other news channel so I didn't actually needed striped with blog. So yeah I I was looking being at his website and it is filled with all kinds of interesting things. It's still it's still up. It's still I think. UNTOUCHED AARON W DOT COM and. Yeah is there any kind of Story of particular bit of mischief for our creativity that But you might remember sure so they were. They were a few one so I mean I remember. Okay so what is it so so an-and wanted to re download the Pacer Database. You know these are the thing he got he got he got I got raided once for it and he but he only got like only serve the database but he got away with a slap on the wrist and he and he's GonNa be Virgil. I just know I got a new pre trial to the Taser database But the problem th that they blacklisted. Everyone everyone with the sports so so I need to use When you both a name and a credit card number so I can sign up for this free trial vile because I can't do it and so two and until until like an errand? Well you know Don't go around charging for hundreds of thousands dollars on my car. He's like no. I probably okay here you go. Here's the card and so yeah and and and I know what you know Like a few days later I got a call from the Department of Justice acting as after a while downloading so much I was like and Yeah I don't know there I mean working working with Aaron with always exciting right I think I think because what would he do. I mean I don't know he would. He would he would sing We do things in Cuba convert brute force kind of way or or. I don't know like you take no for an answer. You is Yeah no no this example. Yeah so the example where he get rid one for the Pacer database and So in was raided for it I it's not what you doing with Actually Eagle so so so so the next night can't be like oh I'll do that again. Well and he sounds he sounds extremely determined. Like any good hacker would be and just somebody who went about something until he got the desired result and I guess pretty relentless in that regard and that was from a show taped in January Kan. of two thousand thirteen Voice Virgil Griffith remembering Aaron Swartz. Who took his own life? Only a few days before that aired and and It sure brings back memories of of just The kinds of things at the hackers Virgil hackers like Erin Would Would what do we talk about You might have heard the word conspire in there. But it's you know it's the good kind of conspiracy where you're trying to figure something out you're trying to crack security security. You're trying to be the first to have a particular bit of knowledge. And that is the magic of hacking. And that's what makes people like this A real treasure some something something we should learn from and not try to prosecute version currently He's out on bail now but he's being charged with being an enemy of the state pretty much in in those words aiding North Korea by going to a conference and talking about cryptocurrency. And of course violating the Current United States travel ban on North Korea. He lives in Singapore and Currently I guess is is stuck in this country. We're on the phone with a friend of virgils Fabio Petra Santa who traveled to North Korea with him Fabio For you there's no problem going to North Korea right that it's not in any way restricted No for my European Union Perspective I mean who apply an refuse to North Korea has noticed fiction in there that are either like doing business and so on But basically the weather in this part of the eastern front between United States Union. That's both counties he's Both regional say go the United Nations actions. Both the United States went to beat Florida harder. They United Nation so You a united Sta- pain you'll be a union of both got up to the United Nations Sanction Directive Measurer measurer rock United States. Apply the addition receive major of like a travel ban Yeah the government is trying to portray this as like Virgil trying to give away like high tech secrets that will help enable oppressive government. But it sounds like from your description of if the travels there that there's more of like a cultural exchange type thing which is actually legal in places like Kiva where we have embargoes That meant to to break down barriers and decrease hostilities between countries. Fabio you there it'd be lost This last point it's basically volterra saying it's IT'S A. Ah More of a cultural exchange. What you guys were doing over there than anything else Yeah definitely I mean. All the people at the winter were driven by the reality of this country and to have a good location to so basically I mean norm. Now we nurse would business for being there for. I don't know you deal all these range saintly this goes whoa what I tell you something When I I knew visual together to tolerate developer meeting and we were talking on the energy And anyone that is passionate about freedom of speech about the anti censorship technology about the anonymity technology that also means challenging the oppressive governments because not security threat model for Anti Censorship. For Sheep for you are fighting for the speech and Fighting Government Cultural Perspective from my perspective or create unique. It is not that the place you appreciate place that you want to see because in the The topic of interest of IBM for freedom of speech through the chronology eats one of the most fundamental Charleston's because they're nineteen medium people that doesn't know what side I mean myself and another curve. Some of the group Also have taken POW leader res. He's running owning the open observatory of metal interference the toll project softer for metal. Mesh of Mansa wrong. The Internet Wifi of yourself to make and so she measurement for the foreign there so we finally have I all the greer. I mean they. The group is made of people that are into Southie at all value and like wheels and culturally into and I really see completely. Outside of any blind to that. He's alive liked the willingness to have been government because the issue came from a Western country. And you always work at the The following your emails that are good ethical emails by applying Technology Doing Code Hawking and whatever you will never help the North Korean government that will press these people. And that's I think one of the tournament's background that it's missing think year. Yeah I hear that definitely appreciate your your detail and and Adding some of the characterizations what it was like for for you and I just wanted to Express how much how much of a difference that is between the allegations given the he's sort of being made out as as as Emmanuel pointed out to be sort of an enemy of the state or mastermind in a place that I think we can get into discussion on our next show about this in greater detail that North Korea itself is is not unfamiliar with blockchain or crypto currency yet. The allegations make it. Sound like That's that's that's what Virgil and the rest of your group brought over there. They introduced this entire concept to the North Koreans which is just simply not true. In fact Let alone the abilities give like sort of a basic rundown of it seemed like it was pretty hard from from the way you talked about Talking at all just logistically -gistically and through translators and so let alone like it wasn't a basic rundown and and something new nor was it sort of a really advanced level thing and I think fat as you know we've heard that the cultural exchange that that Robert pointed out is probably more advantageous and those exploring the network from the inside those other little. Bits that you're able to bring back in that virgils able to share with us. And with willingly willingly with the government I think should be looked at with a lot greater nuance than this on the surface and Fabio one really quick questions. I know we gotta get off the air very quickly. Do you think you learned more about North Korea than they learned about blockchain from you and Virgil both breath. Fabio WanNa thank you so much for joining us this hour and Italy and Hopefully we'll have a chance to talk more and hopefully we'll have a chance to talk with Virgil as well as he's absurd charges hopefully Get get cleared and revealed for what they are. We have a lot more to say about it. We'd like like to hear from our listeners. Know T H at twenty six hundred dot. com is our email address and we'll be back again hopefully next week here on. WBAI NEW NEW YORK. Have a good night the it means Yeah Yeah I uh-huh.
How Many Countries Are There?
"If you wanted to know. How many countries are in the world? It should be a pretty easy thing to find out. Go to a map. Count the countries and Have your answer, however, it isn't even remotely close to being that simple defining what a country is extremely difficult, and has been the point of contention in many wars and conflicts find out the problem of determining how many countries are in the world in this episode of everything everywhere daily. This episode everything everywhere daily is brought to you by G Adventures G adventures is the world's Premier Small Group tour operator offering tours in over one hundred countries and all seven continents in addition g adventures has been a leader in the area of responsible tourism, helping to establish social enterprises around the world. When you travel with G, you not only get to explore the world. World, you also get to help the people in the communities you visit I speak from firsthand experience. I've personally visited over forty countries on all seven continents with g adventures, and I can attest to their high standards and the quality of their tours to learn more about g adventures and defined a tour. That's right for you. Click on the link in the show notes. Before start, let me make the following disclaimer with the following places, I'm about to list. I am not claiming that any of them are independent or My goal is to simply explain their disputed status and the controversy, surrounding them I am not picking sides, so if you happen to live in one of these places or are in a neighboring country, please don't send me an e mails. Now that being said. If, we wanted a starting point for this discussion. The best place to start is in the United Nations. The UN is the club for countries, and if you want to find out how many countries that are worth, the easiest thing to do would be to ask the UN as of the time I am recording this. There are currently one hundred and ninety three countries in the united. Nations and we'll use this number as our starting point. If you're a country, you're in the United Nations then it's safe to say you are in fact a country. The problem is that the opposite is not true. If you're not in the United Nations. It doesn't mean that you're not a country. The best example of this was probably Switzerland which didn't become a member of the United Nations until two thousand and two, but it doesn't mean that they weren't a country before two thousand two. Once, you get beyond the one hundred and ninety three countries. Things start to get messy because you're dealing with overlapping claims of sovereignty. Countries are often recognized based on mutual recognition by other countries based on international recognition. There are currently three territories that are recognized by over one hundred different UN member states, but are not members of the United Nations themselves. They are city, Palestine and Kosovo. The reason why these three countries are not in United Nations has to do with the unique setup of the UN. And the United Nations Security Council. Any permanent member has the right to veto any UN resolution including getting new members in the case of Palestine membership would be vetoed by the United States in the case of Kosovo. It'd be vetoed by Russia. The Vatican has never really tried to join, but it almost certainly would be vetoed by China, which is one of the few countries in the world, with which it has no diplomatic relations, and it is one of the few countries which actually recognizes Taiwan. Both the Vatican and Palestine are observer members in the United Nations, which means they can attend the parties, but they can't actually vote. Side note I am not going to go into detail, explaining the difference between the Holy See which is officially what has diplomatic recognition and Vatican City? I'll save that for another episode as it is beyond the scope of this show. So if we take the country's plus these three that puts us at one, hundred, ninety six. However. We aren't even close to really answering the question yet. From here, things start to get really murky and confusing. There are several places which may be considered countries, insofar as they control their own borders, have their own governments military currency yet few or no other countries recognize them. I. We need to address the issue of Taiwan I'm like other places in this category. Taiwan doesn't claim to be an independent country. It claims to China like all of China Taiwan claims to Represent All China. The case of Taiwan a special, because they actually have a competing claim with the People's Republic of China as to actually who is China when the UN was formed in Nineteen forty-five, the Republic of China was one of the five permanent members of the Security Council. The Republic of China is what Taiwan calls itself, and it dates back to the Chinese civil war which they lost. The problem was of course they weren't really China representing the vast majority of the Chinese. People, the People's Republic of China head over a billion people and full control of the country on the ground. Taiwan was only an island with a few million people. They might have claimed to represent all of China, but they really didn't. In one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety, one, the. UN recognize the People's Republic of China as the Chinese representative and the Republic of China Aka Taiwan went from being a permanent member of the Security Council to being left out of the United Nations entirely. Nonetheless, even though Taiwan is an in the UN, nor does it have observer status, it has never declared itself to be independent, but it does have some international recognition by eighteen small countries, it also has de facto control of its borders, its own currency military in its own elected government, and it's also allowed to compete in the Olympics in international football competitions as Chinese Taipei. So if we recognize its de facto control of its own territory that puts set one hundred, ninety seven. But if we were to include Taiwan why wouldn't we include other countries which have de facto control over their territory as well there are several places which are countries, insofar as they control their own borders, have their own government military and currency yet. No other countries recognize them. These include south a steadier this breakway part of the Republic of Georgia which borders Russia. It's recognized by five UN member states one of which is Russia. Abkhazia another breakaway republic of Georgia which also borders Russia. It's recognized by five UN member states one of which is also Russia. Transnistria tiny sliver of land, sandwiched between Moldova and Ukraine on the eastern side of the stor river, not recognized by any U member states, and everyone recognizes it as being a part of Moldova. Arts ash also known as now girl Kara Bath. And Armenian populated region, which was part of Azerbaijan when the Soviet Union fell, not recognized by any member state including Armenia. Somaliland. This is the northern part of Somalia. They have total autonomy their own currency. They've even had elections with peaceful transition of government. Nonetheless, no, their country recognizes them. Western Sahara formerly the Spanish Sahara, the Spanish left in nineteen seventy-five without transitioning the region t independence Morocco controls most of the territory, although no country recognizes its sovereignty over it. North Cyprus the northern Turkish of the island, which broke away after an invasion of Cyprus in one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety, four. It is only recognized by Turkey. The stories behind every one of the places I just listed could be an episode unto itself, and maybe someday it will suffice it to say they're all defacto independent, but almost no other country recognizes them as such. If we included all these places, countries were now at two hundred and four. However, we are not done yet. New. Zealand has to territories which are all independent, the island of new way and the cook. Islands are both small territories that totally control their own fate. They are independent members of international organizations, such as UNESCO and the World Health Organization and they can sign their entreaties. They have diplomatic ties with about two dozen U N, member states and the EU, basically they can do whatever they want. Including entering treaties with foreign powers and new. Zealand has publicly stated that they would not stop them if they wish to declare independence and join the United Nations. But. They've stopped short of doing so because all of their citizens currently are also considered citizens of New Zealand that plus other at financial benefits would be lost if they were to fully declare their independence. With new in the cook, islands that puts us at two hundred six countries, which is certainly all of them, right? I know we're just getting warmed up now. We have to delve into autonomous territories. Thomas Territories are places that exist in a quantum state of being a country and not being a country. The best known example would probably be. Puerto Rico Puerto. Rico is a territory of the United States. It's part of the US, but it also isn't part of the US. The people who live there are US citizens, but Puerto. Rico doesn't have representation in the federal government, so it's not quite a part of the US. In the same way that Florida is the same is true for Guam. The US Virgin Islands and the Northern Mariana Islands. Also, which I might add have separate Olympic teams American. American Samoa is very similar with the only difference being that the people that are not US citizens, but are considered US nationals that means they can freely travel and work in the United States. But if they wished to vote while living in the US they would have to become naturalized citizens, Greenland and the Faroe. Islands are part of the Kingdom of Denmark, but are considered autonomous countries within the realm of Denmark by the same token Aruba Curacao and Saint Martin, our countries within the Kingdom of the Netherlands, but the Caribbean islands of bonaire Sabe and saint stations are considered part of the country of. That flat place that's in Europe. Hong Kong and Macau special administrative regions of China with their own currency passport and also Olympic teams. Britain has territories with varying degrees of independence. In phila- monster at the Turks and Caicos the Cayman Islands Bermuda Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands, South Georgia Island the British. Indian Ocean territory ascension island Tristan Kuna saying. And tiny pitcairn island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. Some of those territories have their own Olympic teams and some don't. I haven't even mentioned the three Crown dependencies which are Jersey Guernsey the Isle of Man None of which are part of the United Kingdom nor a territory of the United Kingdom yet are tied to the UK via Direct Union with the Crown Aka the Queen and a top it all off the country of the United Kingdom itself is made up before different countries. England Wales Scotland Northern Ireland. All of whom get separate teams in the World Cup. It's countries in countries. The UK has achieved country inception. So as you can see the question of how many countries are there is a lot more complicated than just looking at who has a seat in the United Nations and there really is no right answer. The base number that most people use as one hundred and ninety three, but it's also pretty obvious. There are more than one hundred and ninety three. The question is how many things should be considered countries, and that will remain an open question subject to debate. This is a brand new podcast, and as such you can really use your support. If you know someone who is curious and you think would like the show. Please share with them, and if you've enjoyed the show, please subscribe on Apple, podcast or Google podcast really get contact for curious people every day and your podcast player and leave a five star review. More views can help the show be discovered by more people and also please support the show on Patriots where you will get exclusive audio content, not available on the podcast feed merchandise such as t shirts, and you'll be able to submit ideas for future episodes until next time. Stay curious.
More data theft by ransomware. Patch Tuesday notes. Espionage and possible data corruption against COVID-19 researchers. Be a role model for your AI.
"Ransomware continues to steal personal information notes on Patch. Tuesday and pleased by all means patch. The FBI says it's investigating cyber espionage directed against cove nineteen researchers and US officials see direct data corruption in espionage. Joe Kerrigan with put his response to five G. Related Corona virus conspiracy theories our guest. Is Chris Cochran from net flicks on the importance of personal health and safety and the eye doesn't really know what to make of us anymore and now a word from our sponsor threat connect designed by analysts but built for the entire team. Red Connects intelligence driven security operations. Platform is the only solution available today with intelligence automation analytics and workflows in a single platform every day organizations worldwide used threat connect as the center of their security operations to detect respond remediate and automate with all of your knowledge in one place enhanced by intelligence enriched with analytics driven by workflows. You'll dramatically improve. The effectiveness of every member of the team. WanNa learn more. Check out their newest e books or platforms everything you need to know about security orchestration automation and response. The book talks about intelligence driven orchestration decreasing. Time to response and remediation with sore and ends with a checklist for a complete source. Solution downloaded at threat. Connect dot com slash cyber wire. That's fred connect dot com slash cyber wire and we thank threat. Connect sponsoring our show funding for this cyber wire. Podcast is made possible in part by McAfee security built natively in the cloud for the cloud. Protect the latest like containers to empower your change makers like developers and to enable business accelerators like your teams cloud security. That accelerates business. It's about time go to McAfee dot com slash time from the cyber wires studios data tribe. I'm Dave bittner with your cyber wire. Summary for Wednesday May Thirteenth Two Thousand Twenty ransomware continues to steal data bleeping computer reports that Magellan health a large. Us managed care and insurance provider discovered on April eleventh that it had been the victim of a ransomware attack. The incident compromised personal data including names addresses employee. Id numbers and various details from us. W. Two or ten ninety nine tax forms a letter to affected stakeholders said that no fraud had so far been detected but of course the incident remains under investigation. Magellan said that the ransomware arrived in a fishing email. That misrepresented itself is coming from a customer and speaking of ransomware yesterday may twelve was marked by many as the third anniversary of wannacry peak and Interpol declared it. Anti ransomware day Info Security magazine quotes the head of Interpol's cybercrime directorate saying the agency wants to remind everyone to keep good cyber hygiene and to wash your cyber hands. Yesterday was also patched Tuesday. Adobe took care of thirty-six bugs and Microsoft addressed one hundred eleven issues. There's a view in circulation that you should take a wait and see approach to applying patches and that in particular you ought to turn off automatic windows updates hang on one columnist wrote and wait to see what happens with other people while in principle this might make sense under some circumstances for an enterprise that must test patches to ensure the fixes one affect their systems availability and even granted that some patches come with problems. It's hard to see why individual users should do the same one security expert tweeted that the advice amounted to digital ANTIBAC- Click Bait though ahead and patch. But if you must be selective in your patching take a look at Cisse's list of the ten most exploited vulnerabilities and start with those a joint warning issued by the US Federal Bureau of Investigation and the cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency that's the FBI and CISA respectively says the bureau is actively investigating the targeting and compromise of US organizations conducting covert nineteen related research by PR AFFILIATED. Cyber and nontraditional collectors is of course the People's Republic of China and non traditional collectors has earlier. Us government advisories referred to students and researchers already in place at institutions who are being activated to collect think of non traditional collectors as for the most part forming a specific kind of internal threat so the espionage has allegedly move beyond the password spraying attack CISA and it's UK counterparts in the national cybersecurity. Center warned against week Chris. Concrete is threat intelligence and operations lead at net flicks and also co host of the Popular Hacker Valley Studio podcast. He joins us with insights on the importance of personal health and safety especially in these uncertain times. I'm a service centric person. So I support everyone else's functions and their missions across the company and so any information from a threat perspective that I can supply to them is what might roll is in my opinion. We're doing a service for the world because a lot of people were stuck inside they. Are you know hearing things on the news that might not be as you know uplifting as it usually is being able to have something to escape into? Is I think really important in this time. So you know my family. We sit down and we watch Netflix. Just like everyone else and it. It's really a good family bonding time to kind of dive into that world for a bit and get away from everything else that's going on. You are also the host of the Hacker Valley Studio podcast Tell me about that. Yeah Hacker Studio podcast. That's my passion project. It's literally what I go to bed thinking about. Wake up thinking about. We really focus on the human element of cybersecurity. So the the Personas. The stories behind different products and teams. And it's it's been amazing. We started last year and we actually just hit our one year. Mark here in April. And we've had some amazing guests on and it just seems to be Cronin. It's on legs and I couldn't be happier with it. So you say you focus on the human side. What's stored of stories? Are you said I setting out to tell their yes. So the way we of look at our podcast we look at it. Seventy percent sort of personal growth self help and thirty percents cybersecurity. Because it's in my opinion that is cyber security professionals. We are truly mental athletes with no off time. There's no off season for us. And so we want to supply our professionals. The people that are in our community with knowledge to make themselves better better in their lives better in their careers. So the things that you can think of from leadership ability to nutrition and fitness to training things like that. That's stuff that we sort of focus on. I think a lot of us find ourselves who in the situation. We're in these days with the krona virus and working from home and you know being separated from From our colleagues and even our loved ones that takes an emotional toll on us Do you have any tips? Any advice for folks to how to kind of keep their chins up and keep motivated Given these challenging times yeah I would say reach out to people definitely staying communication as you can. Whether it's through you know people that are in your house or virtually there are tons of events that are going on online all the time so find something you can interact with other human beings. Because I feel like now's the time that we can actually build some bonds even though we're all separated in this current time so definitely reach out to people talk to people and just build memories you know. Hopefully this doesn't last much longer but if it does at least you'll still have people that you can rely on. That's Chris Cochran from net flicks if you have not yet checked out the Hacker Valley Studio. Podcast what are you waiting for? It's a good one. Check it out. The Wall Street Journal writes in an exclusive that Iran as well as China is engaged in spying on organizations conducting covert nineteen related research. These efforts have been in progress since January third at least and the damage they may have done could extend to more than simple theft of intellectual property. There appears to be serious possibility of data corruption. In the course of the incursions such corruption may have been accidental. It may have been incidental to the attackers attempts to cover their tracks like a House. Burglar who by cleaning his own fingerprints causes inadvertent damage to the home. Or it may have been intentional. The Journal quotes A. Us senior official is saying quote. It is difficult and sometimes impossible to know what motivates such malfeasance but any such activity carries with it the risk of triggering accidental disruptive effects and quote. Cnbc notes that research organizations inevitably expand their attack surface as more of their people work from home and that both personal and institutional networks are likely to become targets of cyber espionage. Cnbc does mention the honor among thieves point of view that early in the pandemic to seriously various criminals and state-sponsored threat actors avowals of their intention to leave medical emergency and research organizations alone presumably for the common good. But at this point it should be safe to say that all that stuff was so much argo bargo and Pixie dust to misdirect the rubes attacks on these kinds of organizations have anything risen and finally the. I really doesn't know what to make of you. Nowadays you're breaking it's artificial heart. It's like you don't talk anymore and that we hear because there's not much to do beyond watching your advice shows on daytime. Tv is bad for any relationship. Here's a consequence of the pandemic emergency. It's been easy to overlook. Mit Technology Review says that artificial intelligence trained on actual human behavior has been suddenly baffled by all of your toilet paper hoarding. You're strange hours. You're seclusion in your basement. Attic bedroom or other functional Garrett. It really doesn't know what to make of population where what was once. Outlier behavior is now mainstream when the normal so so abnormal at least from the machines point of view this has been particularly evident in applications of AI to retail problems. What to expect people to buy how likely they are to close a purchase. How consumption patterns inform inventory and so on a lot more. Human intervention is required but many businesses who've deployed AI. Lack the human resources to supervise the machines technology review finds the upside in all of this quote if we are looking for a silver lining then now is the time to take stock of those newly exposed systems and ask how they might be designed. Better made more resilient. If machines are to be trusted we need to watch over them and quote raise them upright. You don't want your ai to grow up sniping butts and throwing rocks at cars and hey as good old. Dr Phil says we teach people how to treat us. That's as true of the scarecrow and the tin man as it ever was for Dorothy. They weren't a worthy now. Maybe the tin man was and now a word from our sponsor. Last pass last passes an award-winning security. Solution that helps millions of individuals and over sixty one thousand organizations navigate their online lives easily and securely businesses can maximize productivity while still maintaining effortless strong security with last pass. Security is essential for a remote workforce last pass. Identity helps make stronger. Security seamless through integrated single sign on Password Management and multi factor authentication last pass identity enables remote teams to increase security. Last pass can help prevent against the uptick in cyber attacks targeting remote workers through biometric authentication across APPS workstations. Vpn's for an additional layer of security across all critical devices. It can help manage user access regardless of where or how employees need access last Passan's shores employees always have secure access to their work applications through single sign and Password Management. It helps your employees securely share last pass enables remote employees to securely share passwords across teams in order to securely and stay on top of critical projects and it helps maintain control last pass enables it to remain in complete control over which employees are accessing which resources no matter where they're working from with last pass identity. You can keep your remote workforce secure and connected visit last pass dot com to learn more. That's last pass dot com and we thank pass for sponsoring our show hum and joining me once again. Joe Kerrigan. He's from the Johns Hopkins University Information Security Institute also my co host on the hacking humans. Podcast Joe Great to have you back. I Dave Interesting Article From the Telegraph and I I know I'm probably going to set you off here. It's titled Twitter steps up. Its fight back against five G. Corona virus conspiracy theories now. Joe I I love a good conspiracy theory as as the next guy. Who can you unpack? What's going on here? The I will say this Dave. I also love conspiracy theories as well. I'm a big fan of them. So long as they're harmless right okay. People being flat earthers. Okay people being vaxxers not okay. People saying that five G. is the cause of corona virus. Not Okay and that's because it has bound up causing people to do things like set fire to cell phone masts in in the UK. They've also seen some abuse directed at at a Telco engineers and Britain. There is no link between five G. and Corona virus at right. It's of course not. I don't think that's how viruses work if you look at a map of where where five. G. AND CORONA VIRUS ARE THEY'RE GONNA they're gonNA overlap because that's where people are so it's the correlation is not causation. Exactly we're looking at correlation relations. Not Causation. There. There is a correlation between where these are and where these things coexist but it is not the cause of the cove. Nineteen virus The other thing I wanted to explore here though is that These major platforms like twitter. Right they're making some attempts to crack down on the spread of this misinformation. Yeah that's that's actually. The point of the article is the twitter is going to start sending sponsored content to people who Post about this conspiracy theory. They're going to start getting information that has been verified by the British government in their promoted. Tweet so now if you see a if you if you're a twitter user like every so so many tweets you'll see a promoted tweet down at the bottom and it's a tweet that somebody has paid to have you see and what he does an okay job of telling you that it's a promoted tweet and so the British government is verifying this information and now twitter is going to say okay. We're going to show these People who believe that conspiracy theory about five gene corona virus. This information that the British government has has vetted and approved so trying to counter the misinformation with vetted. Good information yes exactly. I don't know how effective it's going to be my earlier example with With Flat Earth People. You can show them all the evidence in the world and some of them will not believe any of it right. I'm very well. The the evidence is just evidence of the cover up now right or wrong massive massive global cover up involving thousands and thousands and thousands of people which would be almost impossible to do in and of itself. But hey the they do it. Somehow it's interesting they quote a guillaume. Shallow who is a former Google engineer? He's he actually laid a lot of this at the feet of social media sites and said that their algorithms promote watch time at any cost if you think about that. Facebook and twitter and other social media sites are only valuable as long as your looking at the sights writing. As long as there's eyeballs on the webpage this goes back to why I say this is not you know not a good environment for political discussion. Because you're only going to hear things that make you feel good not things that make you think which might make you uncomfortable right right so. They're they're promoting engagement rather than enrichment right. That's a good way of promoting engagement over enrichment and something. Shallow says here. He says have freedom of speech to say whatever they want but they shouldn't have freedom to be amplified millions of times in this case. I'm okay with that but my problem is my problem. Was saying that you actually run the risk for some pretty serious censorship down the road. Yeah so it's interesting that the these platforms are sort of dipping their toes in this. I think they recognize that. They're they're getting pushed back on this and and Even if they don't Consider themselves responsible or think they bear responsibility. Perhaps just the PR part of it that these people are are getting are having bad feelings about their platforms because of these things. Maybe that's enough to make them Have some change or at least try some things. Well hopefully it will be That's the old argument that I hear you and Brian Jason. Talking about frequently is the. It's just a platform. We let people say whatever they want to say or post whatever they want to post I don't know I think you bear some responsibility to to moderate that platform or two curated some way shape or form All right well It's interesting for sure. I guess in the meantime everybody Continue to stay safe out there and Please don't Don't burn down. Telephone crashed engineer. Right right enjoy the enjoy the enhanced speed of five G. and and just let it let it be that. Yeah all right Joe Kerrigan. Thanks for joining us. It's my pleasure. And that's the cyber wire links to all of today's stories. Check out our daily briefing at the CYBER DOT COM and for professionals and cybersecurity leader. Who WANT TO STAY. Abreast of this rapidly evolving field. Sign up for cyber wire pro. It'll save you time and keep you informed. Whiten your teeth to listen for us on your Alexa Smart Speaker. Thanks to all of our sponsors for making the cyber wire possible especially are supporting sponsor observed a proof point company and the leading insider threat management platform learn more at observant dot com. The cyber wire podcast is proudly produced in Maryland out of the startup studios of data tribe with their co building. The next generation of cybersecurity teams and technologies are amazing cyber wire team is Elliott Peltzman Peru. Precaution Stefan. Elsie Bond. Tim No Dr Joe. Kerrigan Herald -Tario. Benny Yellen Nick Valenki. Jeanne Johnson Bennett. Mo- Chris Russell John Patrick Jennifer Ibon Rick Howard Heater Kilby. And I'm Dave Vitner. Thanks for listening. We'll see you back here tomorrow.
Chinese Communists, Hong Kong and Impeachment
"Wall Street Journal listeners come from all walks of life and business and no matter what type of business urine eighty P is here to help you achieve what you're working king for with. HR talent time benefits and payroll informed by data and designed for people learn more at design done eighty p dot com from the opinion pages of the Wall Street Journal. This is Potomac. Watch welcome to the Wall Street journals Potomac Watch. I'm bill mcgurn filling in for Paul to go and with me are to my colleagues Jason Jason Good to be here and Kyle Peterson then today too big as we want to talk about one is in China the People's Republic celebrated its seventieth anniversary of when Mao stood stood on Tiananmen Square nounce to formation of his government people in Hong Kong. Don't seem to be very happy with that. We'll talk about that and then we want talk about what the latest is an impeachment and particularly what it's going to mean for the next democratic debate which I believe is two weeks from today so so let's get started kyle. What do you th- what how do we put the founding of the People's Republic in historical perspective? I mean it's outlasted the Soviet Union Union all these other communist societies. Why is that well? It's it's got power. It's got strength. I mean what what strikes most about the reporting on National Day is the juxtaposition so on one hand you have this demonstration of raw Chinese power military power. you have tanks rolling by Tenement Square. You have ten thousand troops goosestepping intercontinental ballistic missiles on trucks that are rolling by supersonic drones reportedly and then on the other the other hand. You have protests continuing in Hong Kong where people are fighting fighting for the deal that they thought they had made when Britain left and you have the first protester who has been shot reportedly into arm reportedly a high school all student and it just showed goes to show you know how how China keeps keeps its authority is by putting people under the thumb right well Jason Part of that though is one reason I would argue having lived in Hong Kong ten years that China is still around while the Soviet Union they used to have the big military sorry parades and the my and they were fermentable power. I think one difference is the Chinese wisely open to the market under Deng Xiaoping in Nineteen seventy-nine and though it's it's not it's clearly not the free market as we would know it. It's free and it's open to trade and that has has greatly Lee increase the wealth of the average Chinese citizen you know when I was there people called it market Leninism and there's something to that because communism awesome is always been much more about Lennon power than it has been about marks in an economic arrangement yeah after the Soviet Union collapsed I think some Western commentators thought well this is the end of sort of communist systems and regimes that don't depend on the consent of the people and that that aren't liberal democracies. This is the end of the line for them but China has been able to thread the needle. It's gotten the benefits of market growth and its legitimacy to some extent sent rests on these fantastic increases in living standards for ordinary people and in exchange for that it's able to maintain its authority. So what you're saying is basically the it's called at least some dissent. There is still dissenters and they do what communist regimes always do they check them in jail. If you get to ornery but the they've been able to buy off the people at least in this sense and it's not an unreasonable bargain for the people who make if if I feel tomorrow's ours is going to be better than today and especially that my children will have a brighter future than I am. I May Not WanNa rock the boat. That's what they seem to be banking on right so they're very very vulnerable to a downturn. Yeah I mean I mean that's not even so different from democracies when democracies are delivering growth for people than the incumbent administration incumbent government is less likely to face a stronger challenge from arrival and with China. That's yes that does seem to be the whole model kyle you know looking at history to one of the the extraordinary things to me is how Mao in communism are kind of considered jokes in some way the imagery as opposed to Stalin Dolon in the Soviet Union and mouth of course killed lots and lots of people and subjected them to crazy things like the great leap forward and the Cultural Revolution. I mean in a sense the greatest disaster for the Chinese people has been to have the triumph of communism there right and one one of the things is notable in interesting in in recent years has been you know after this fall of the Soviet Union the idea on Orwellian state was a sort of dismissed whereas now China is really pioneering the use of technology to make that kind of a society -IETY to stand in a way that was not possible before I mean you read some of the stories about the the social credit system that they're implementing where you know your ability to get a loan or travel. Even is based in part on how loyal you've been to the party. Maybe how loyal your family has been to the party. that's another element enough of it to certainly bears looking out. That's a big element today in our newspaper. We have an article by Jimmy Lai who is a a friend of Milton Friedman's a Hong Kong resident who's been a big advocate of democracy and freedom for China and a lot of people point out Jason that would kyle's talking about is for years you could argue China was moving from totalitarian system. You know remember the Mao suits everyone's dressing the same and the the sessions Sion's were. If you had any kind of western education you'd be the make you wear done sat in the sent the educated people out to the farms you could argue. They moved away from that to become a more authoritarian country where you couldn't challenge their political rule but you could do a lot more economically and you're a lot more free people I started having access to the outside world but now what caused talked about particularly the two things like the facial recognition features so if you walk into an airport they know who you who are in these social credit scores were if they think you're a problem you might not get that flight to Shanghai that you are counting on you might not get that job and and if you look at what sheeting Pakistan a lot of people would say he is a lot more power than now did or at least trying to get it and look he's. He's locked act up the way he's persecuting the Tibetan Buddhists. He's persecuting the Falun Gong. He's tearing down Christian churches. I think the only people aren't being persecuted accused the Jews because there aren't any yeah I think what we said. In our editorial is there was some hope after Deng Xiaoping's economic opening that China could become a relatively not not an open society but in the model of some of these other Asians yeah these transitioning democracies Aussies and so on but instead you've seen beginning Hu Jintao in especially under Xi Jinping that there's a complete change. Yeah I mean cracking down on Hong Kong the surveillance systems you know in Nepal and Brennan Jiang being pioneered there and then being used against Chinese people you you know Oliver the rest of the country he's he and you know also a more hawkish posture toward Taiwan interfering more aggressively there so you're definitely seeing you're definitely seeing G. Tighten his grip a return to or well you know in the when Tiananmen Square happened if if you remember you guys are probably too young but a lot of the information the fax machine was a revolutionary tool because people faxed information in and out of China it was really before the computing revolution and that meant that they weren't cut off from access. I believe China cut. CNN's cable at one point but through faxes magic effects is people were and now of course you have people with access to a lot of information so at the time it was thought that or will had been turned on his head right that I think that the digital revolution empower the individual and now we're seeing you know the the kind of Orwellian view fighting back that they're going to control troll and that's why you know in Hong Kong. The protesters are tearing down these towers that have facial recognition features because they don't want. They don't want to be known yeah. I think I think that's happening in China and it also happened in the Middle East where in the Arab spring we thought people who had twitter and who had social media we're going to be able to you know topple the government democratize the flow of information instead. It's been something more like the reverse and China's on the cutting edge of making that happen right. We're going to take a little break right now. You've been listening to Potomac Watch from the Wall Street Journal Wall Street Journal listeners come from all walks of life and business and no matter what type of business you're in eighty P is here to help you achieve what you're working for with. HR talent time benefits and payroll informed formed by data and designed for people learn more at design done eighty p dot com you from the opinion pages of the Wall Street Journal. This is Potomac. Watch we'RE BACK WITH POTOMAC. Watch from the Wall Street Journal on Bill mcgurn filling in for Paul Zhigo with my colleagues Kyle Peterson and Jason will call just to wrap up the China thing. I think sometimes people don't realize again the absolute disaster astor that that Communist China has been for the Chinese people some there are a lot of people were very romantic about Mao and back you know backed him during the worst abuses and so forth by contrast Taiwan and Hong Kong showed what a free Chinese people people could do you know in terms of their productivity and so forth and now that's under threaten Hong Kong again. We saw a lot of violence last night but most of the people aren't violent silence. What does what does this tell us? The people of Hong Kong who are completely unarmed say we're not going gentle into that good night. We do not want to be part part of China. I saw a recent thing you know when I lived in Hong Kong twenty years ago if you ask people what they were that say Chinese Cantonese now they say Hong on Congress. They don't want to be identified as trying to because they don't like China yeah and it's not quite clear how this standoff will end. I mean so far China has shown Joan has has not moved in military leader. Hong Kong has not really cracked down in the way that certainly has the power to but yeah I mean it just shows the the the juxtaposition I mean you talked about the disaster. A Communist China has banned. I mean the one child policy is a good example Levette. You re just a really horrific stories. people's personal stories about their their that that policy touching their lives on another example is is pollution. I mean the the economic studies of these things show that communist totalitarian regimes are just terrible ruble terrible on the pollution and it's I mean it's there's there's huge weaknesses their free societies that allow protests are stronger you know they're they're good good ideas that bubble up in Rice's service and they also attracts people. I mean America has has a lot of Nobel prize winners who have moved to its shores over the past fifty years. They're not a lot of great scientists who are moving into China bright right for all its technical skills so I would just say it did to this observer. It does not look like there is a happy ending for Hong Kong and one difference with Tiananmen Square is that when China crack down then Beijing was not a world class financial center which Hong Kong is and and no city in China no matter how rich it is Shanghai or so forth can take the place of Hong Kong because the world class financial center includes reputation and the rule of flaw so there's a lot at stake there for China's well as Hong Kong. Let's switch now to an end patron Jason. There's been so much moving so Mrs Pelosi authorize an official impeachment inquiry by the committees and so forth. Let's look ahead a little bit. I think two weeks from tonight is the next and fourth Democratic presidential ventral debate. Now we knew impeachment would be subject even without Mrs Pelosi because Tom Steyer the wealthy businessman has been making that initialing that's his big tissue and he just got on the stage well now. They're all going to have to address it. Is that right I think so. I think it'll be a if everyone endorses impeachment. How can you you distinguish yourself from the rest of the crowd? It's going to be impeachment on what grounds on how quickly who else you want to impeach Bill Bar Mike Mike Pompeo is on the Ukraine call you know so I think I think that is going to dominate the debate and I think that the Democrats think that not without the reason that that's key to winning their primaries showing voters that they want to impeach the president. That's a question call because it may it may actually be good for the candidates each to endorse missile throated impeachment as many of them have and it may be necessary in other words that any candidate that that express some skepticism about how impeachments going going could not hope to win winner of Democratic primary but is that good for the rest of the party particularly on thinking of those thirty one Democrats sitting in districts carried by Donald Trump yeah. I don't think it's good for them at this point but we're still early in this process in will two weeks is a long time. We'll have to see what they dig up. I mean so far. We've had the memo of trump's call with Ukrainian president released. We've seen most of the whistleblower report and now the you know the congressional committees are going to start turning out looking for information. The whistle blower stuff was generally secondhand so they're going to be trying to confirm firm that trying to lock down details trying to see if there was some sort of harder quid pro quo on the the Ukrainian aid that the trump trump administration put on hold for a time and you know who knows what that will look like in two weeks time right and Jason the one of the things that also it does seem clear if they're going to discuss impeachment as I think they have to can they do that without addressing hunter Biden and Joe Biden and their own role in the Ukraine as recall hunter accepted a position on the board of Ukrainian gas company that was being investigated and Joe Biden while he was vice president got the guy fired doesn't mean he did anything wrong but there's clearly a conflict of interest. It's going to be very awkward for Joe Biden on that and stage. If either the moderators fellow candidates are pushing this so when asked Kamala Harris a reporter asked Kamala Harris that very question and she sort of tried to dance rounded and say I want to leave the Biden's out of this but certainly that's that's an awkward dance and I think that's why a lot of people are saying this is bad for Joe. Oh Biden right and it's good for everyone else. The question is it it may not be good for the person who benefits may not benefit by bringing it up but the question is will one of the Mi- more minor candidates not the big three bringing it up in hopes of advancing but I I would think that Joe Biden has to be very clear on this kyle like he can't be stammering around and look lost and so forth he has to be very clear and he has a to expect somewhere in one of his flanks someone to come out with a pretty tough attack. I think that's right and you know don't discount the idea that the moderators may bring this upright because this this this this discussion of this already circulating and I think you're absolutely right. I think he has to have a very strong and crisp answer to with you know some memorize lines that he can deploy to to undermine the narrative around this as much as he possibly can but as far as how it affects the race there are a lot of progressives who probably don't mind that that this is gonNA pull joe down to because they would prefer to see Elizabeth Warren so for for them. This is kind of a twofer in a you go you go after president trump while advancing your preferred nominee right and Jason. They don't have to say he didn't just they they have have to say look. The stakes are really great in this election. We wanted to feed Donald Trump. How can we have someone on stage with him? Who is also compromised by Ukraine? If we are impeaching donald trump over Ukraine yeah I mean maybe the best answer for Joe. Biden is to go on the offensive and say well look this up. Oh dump they just did on Elizabeth Warren and all the extent of her sort of entanglement with this native American issue. I you know I'm still the most electable right and you know the the Ukraine thing is so complicated. There's the prosecutor he was looking into this. They seem to be a lot of prosecutors and and you know and I think you know maybe if Joe does it right. Voters can just be confused. you know because there's so many dump on Rudy Giuliani right that kind of thing exactly and I mean you know and and even as the Republicans are talking about the way that the Democrats may have been talking to the Ukrainians in two thousand sixteen to get dirt on Donald Trump. I think voters might just be like what is going on in Ukraine who are all these all these people fright. What what's your take on that yeah? I think there's something to that and that's that's part of what makes the story for the president. I think so difficult is that it's very easy to understand. you have a a a a memo. It's not quite exactly a word for word transcript but a memo oh that's out where he's saying you know this would be great. I'm GonNa put you in touch with the Attorney General so I mean I agree that it's it's very complicated with with one hundred nine the story in a way that makes that less likely to stick and the reverse of that is that the the trump stories pretty easy to understand but again for Elizabeth Warren this is I mean she's struggling now kind of in a three way race with Bernie and and Joe Biden no one's been able to really knock Joe Biden out of that first place perch right so she she has to hope. I don't know which one you said it before that this story remains around look it's. It's not clear to me that that the they're gonNA find that Joe Biden did anything but it reminds me of the scene in the Godfather when the witnesses supposed to testify about the mob behavior to the Senate and just as he's supposed to testify Michael Corleone comes in and he brings with him the witnesses brother from Sicily doesn't speak English doesn't know where he is. He's just kind of happily. Message received the witness clammed up didn't didn't give them what they want so it's easy for the Ukraine company to say Joe you. We're not gonNA Hunter. You don't have to do anything just sit on the board that may be enough to discourage desks right so we may not find that there's any overt call to although Jason to be fair Joe Biden said he never discussed it all in any any way shape or form his son on this committee the article that came out before was it the New Yorker had hunter Biden thing his father did bring it up to once yeah and I mean who knows who knows what the truth there. Is You know if he were President and there was a special prosecutor. Who knows you know how many people they would? You know I mean th these kinds of things are just so hard to to untangle. I think overall I think overall Joe Biden just needs to say you know. Look my son you know was sitting on this board. I didn't have anything to do with it. Lots of people sit on boards and they get compensated waited for it and that's how it works and you know by the way you know this prosecutor prosecuted him because he wasn't being aggressive enough on corruption not that he and you know and I'm not sure which one people believe I'll say more broadly. I think you know this is something that happens. We saw it with the Clintons. We see it in others that I'm not sure that's a precedent that the Buzzer to invoke as a defense right but but just just more broadly I mean this is a problem that people see the political class lasts apparently profiting off of its connections to Washington you know the Democrats are accusing trump of doing this and his children of doing this and binds being accused of doing this and that's it's something that in this case it is interesting that Joe Biden took hunter with them on some of these trips where he made deals. I mean that that seems to me an odd thing to do with the Fed the president's frequently take investors along but when it's your son signing deals on issues that he has no particular competence in I'm. I'm rather surprised that he did it so anyway. Kyle what you're saying is the next the next debate the democratic debate. They'll probably really get into it and one of the questions will be will it be dominated by Donald trump or Joe Biden hunter by the discussion. You know where we're going to see the most fireworks clearly they're all going to become an out of the box against trump but but the question is again whether they take down Joe Biden as part of that and one of the things that's interesting as this plays a little bit too one one of Warren's Elizabeth Warren's campaign narratives which is anti-corruption. She's talking a lot about that on the campaign trail talking about we need we need bans on lobbying cheese. She she means specifically relations with big business right Paul political relations with big business and also with former members of Congress. Go go out and getting these lobbying jobs. That's not quite the same as one hundred Biden thing but it's close it's reparable. It's these people who have connections who are getting paid to sit on boards so she has has made that into one of the themes of her campaign so far and you know I would expect that she would definitely hit that hard in this context right so it's GonNa be a lively night. What are you looking forward to on that night there any question you would like to see well I well? I kind of think that The you and I and I think some other people saying that the impeachment squeeze is going to start to narrow the field that it's going to make voters want to start getting serious about getting just a few view. candidates and I do think it's going to knock out some people. I think Kamala Harris is on her last legs. I think you know Pete which is surprising because is on paper. She checks boxes right on paper. She checks a lot of boxes but when she speaks she seems to often fumble things and come across his sarcastic our cast Dick and and just not not pull off the lines as well as as she might so I'm looking for. I'm looking for you know the field to start to narrow. I'm of course looking for the the buying fireworks and I'm looking forward to some of the more the Democrats may be going on the record over some of the more extreme things that have happened in the last couple of weeks including with the with Brett cavenaugh and and that effort against him in Kyle warn the big question marks over this. We still don't have the inspector general's the report about the FIS warrants. We still don't have the material debt Donald Trump or claw classified into a lot of those scandals we still still don't have what the to prosecutors looking into this including one looking into Ukraine and its actions I mean a lot of that could change the debate between between now and then if this information is out there in fact some of us you brought up POMPEO and Bob Bartha Bill Bar some people people think that these attacks designed to discredit them in advance before these kinds of serious accusations come out and one thing to keep an eye on as as we move toward the debate is the the the last gasp of some of these campaigns are not gonna make the next debate if I'm remembering the polling threshold for this one is two percent and and the the Democratic National Committee has tight for the next two three percent so we have eleven or twelve candidates here now at some of them are not gonNa make the stage next time so they got to be thinking about what what what is the one thing that they can say that we'll get some social media attention and and stick around a little bit longer right so Jason. You said it looks. It looks in the in the house if you had to read it. It looks like there are the votes for impeachment right. Maybe maybe not for conviction in the Senate and at that to me looks very dubious. at this point isn't one of the messages of the Clinton impeachment that if you're going to go after the king you've got to kill the King could actually make trump's stronger if I mean it seems to me that Mrs Pelosi by her decision has also decided we are now the impeachment each been congress. We're putting all the other stuff on the side and we are going to base it all bet bet the farm on impeachment I think that one in perils barrels her own house members and would if they get an impeachment but like the Clinton effort it becomes a dead in the Senate yeah. I think that's quite possible. Oh I think it's too early to say for sure because I think some of the polling has actually been somewhat encouraging for Democrats the numbers among the public for impeachment. We're never very high. They were always a minority position now. Some polls show taking up with grain thing who knows how long that's GonNa last as the investigations go on and on and all these confusing things things make the public tired of it we don't know but I think Miss Pelosi had no choice. I mean I mean she held off from that for a long time and I frankly think I think that she might have been ousted by her member if she wouldn't have gone ahead when it I think you're probably right but that's also a different picture of Mrs Pelosi than the one we've been given when she was up for speakership was all about how she's the wise Old Lady of Washington and she the people there aren't any match for but she's kind of been boxed into this corner anyway. We'll leave it for their today. thank you kyle. Thank you Jason. I'm bill mcgurn
Residential Recycling Is Being Dumped In Landfills, Faces A Crisis
"Welcome to an interview edition of your daily Detroit recorded on Friday, March fifteenth twenty nineteen I'm spend gossips on today's show. We talk about some big issues. Facing the recycling industry with Joe Munem who heads up government affairs and public relations for Jeff L environmental USA, a large waste hauler and recycling business. Turns out municipal recycling. Bins of plastic containers, glass, bottles and paper that you put out in the Kirby tweak. What's facing some major challenges and your side recycling program could soon get a lot more expensive or go away entirely. We think it's a pretty fascinating conversation, and it's up, right? After this this up sort of daily Detroit, escorted by our members onto patriarch. You can help us. Push Detroit's conversation forward at patriotair dot com slash daily, Detroit. And thanks all right on a recent episode. I went on a little side rant during a story about a new drop off program. Mm-hmm. For unused pharmaceutical drugs at Mayer. It went a little like this. And I just want to just give another shout to Meyer at least the the eight mile Woodward location, which is near me. I don't know that. That's technically a supercenter. I don't think they have pharmacy there. But what they do have is. They offer a been where you can recycle you're on your your plastic bags, which everybody's you know, if you keep him, the everyone's got a million there, the world's got too many plastic bags and I'm on this rule rant lately. Because I read a story about how terrible plastic is for the planet. And that's it. Friends that caught the attention of today's guest, Joe moon him of GL environmental. He emailed us and offered himself up as a guest to talk about what he said where some tough choices facing communities that offer residential recycling services. It's gotten so bad. In fact, that the city of Westland has started landfilling, it's recyclable material for more on why let's go straight to the tape. All right, Joe. So you say that there are some huge issues effecting effecting, the recycling industry in the United States, and that's trickling down obviously to everybody here in the Detroit area. What's the issue? What's going on? Well, actually, it's not just the United States. It's worldwide one of the largest consumers, actually, the largest consumer formerly was the People's Republic of China. Okay. They were taking the vast majority of this mixed recyclables, and sorting through. It and getting that that material to be recycled. So in other words, the recycling that we put out on our curb every week here wherever you live in Detroit. Ends up getting put on a container ship. I assume and then shipped halfway around the world to China for recite for processing, generally what you have around. Metro-detroit communities is something known as single stream recycling where you have been or a cart and all of their psych lables that are accepted by whoever your Haller might be go into that. And you don't have to separate anything like used to. That's right. And that is picked up by a separate truck that takes it to something called a material recovery facility, or as we call it a Murph Murph, I love that. And they're it's put on a conveyor belt, and a a there are employees ease who sort by hand. And there are some very complicated machines that separate these materials into metal plastics. The different grades of plus the to the one nine whatever you, and and then, you know, these things are then sorted bailed. And sent to you know, to the mills for whoever's buying them at the time because recyclables are after all a commodity and the price fluctuates wildly will allot of the based on demand for for more recyclables. Okay. Formerly a lot of the mixed paper and plastics were being put on container ships and sent to China and one reason for that was when container ships come over here to bring all the goods that they're building in China. There's a very cheap rate when they have to go back to China's on these empty ships. So they were putting all these recyclables on their and previously. China had been accepting about a twenty percent rate of. Nation and by contamination. People don't always follow the guidelines that they're told to of what they can and cannot put in those bins or carts. And so, for example, for example, food or diapers or? Or law, a laundry detergent and the bottle for laundry detergent, typically like a number two plastic would be okay. But if they leave detergent in there, and it's I'm sure a lot of people do it without rinsing it out. I mean, I used to work in bars. And and Dr driving crazy, how many people would leave, you know, an inch or two of beer at the bottom of their bottles, which you know, those are all being recycled, obviously, and I had to dump them out because otherwise make them that spanning if that leaks over everything else you've now made that everything else non-recyclable so China previously decided that they were going to go with the twenty percent rate of contamination. They change their national policy and went to a half a percent rate of contamination, which cratered the market bought a year ago. And why did they make that that decision? And he had they decided that they were getting way too much garbage and not enough value from recyclables. Okay. That this no longer made sense for them economic. Weekly. Okay. However, the markets in the United States and throughout the world Europe is everywhere for this stuff was we no one was ready for this so materials that used to be profitable to recycling companies here. Now, you have to pay the murph's considerably more to separate that also in what we're expanding how much more we talk on. It's wild swings. I mean, it's you know, in some places it's over one hundred dollars and her per ton per tonne. Yeah. I mean, it's it. I mean it varies throughout the United States. It's just depends where you are. The real problem, though, his that disaffected their capacity because they had to slow their lines down and hire more people to sort now. These are the the Murph Murphy immaterial, reacts or facilities in in the Detroit area of Michigan or whatever everywhere everywhere in the country. Yeah. And what you've seen now because there's no place to take it and the markets have bottomed out, our warehouses and docks were these bales of recyclables are being are being piled to the sky. Now, there are still some countries who've been taking these over particularly in Asia, Malaysia, Vietnam, and they take it one month, and then get overwhelmed with it, and then stopped taking it, and they're taking it at the old, you know, twenty percent or whatever contaminated rape higher rates higher rate. I I can't tell you exactly what what their rates are. And I'm sure it varies. But when they can't get rid of it. And there's junk. That's where you're starting to see a lot of the stuff wind up in the ocean. Wow. All right. So so what does this mean? I mean, you're talking about this higher costs and everything who's that affecting. I mean, what what does this all mean for those of us who want to be conscientious and continue to recycle invariably? It means. It's going to cost you more. If you want to recycle the haulers, the recyclers can simply not absorb these kind of increases. So these cost half to be passed along. There are items that are not going to be as desirable. A lot of communities have told their residents were not taking number three through number seven plastics anymore because there's just no market for it. A lot of places aren't taking glass anymore because glasses never been a particularly good market. So you'll probably see a lot more places going back to the older days of source separation where you have to keep your pay. For separate and your plastic separate and glass supper, I I live in Sterling Heights and Sterling Heights has both curbside recycling. But they also have drop off centers at the drop off center, you take newspaper and put it in the newspaper. Ben, you take the plastics put him in the plastics metals and metals that's called source separation, and it is absolutely cleaner than dumping everything into one bin. So have we seen are there cities around the region that have started to increase their prices for recycling though? I mean, we your back services. You're you're going to see that more and more most notably in is in the news. Just a couple of weeks ago. The city of Westland notified the residents that because of the increase that they realized in hauling their recyclables that that for the time being they're taking the recyclables to be landfilled. Wow. That's an op. Option. Another option would be taking it to Detroit renewable power, which is the only waste to energy facility in the metropolitan Detroit area. And at least you could take those recyclables there and get electric and steam out of them, which you know, is is in reality a form of recycling. But there is a thought that maybe China's doing us a favor because before when they were taking the stuff we didn't have to think about. Yeah. This in a long term way. And now we're being forced to write it. You're talking about you know, we were previously sending all this material to China and more recently, we're finding other countries in Asia and elsewhere that are are willing to take it in at least until they get overwhelmed. Does it suggest that there's room in the United States to develop a more robust recycling industry or just the market is not exist for it? The markets don't exist right now. But I. I'm always confident in American ingenuity that somebody will look at something and say, here's how I can make a buck off of it. And that needs to be explored someone needs to figure that out. In the meantime, we need to not be buying as much plastic. Yeah. You know, you can look like a a piece of cardboard cardboard box. And and yeah, you say, that's that's recyclable. But as soon as there was there's a film over it. Not recyclable. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, so that's that's a good point that we need to be buying less plastic and I'm fully behind that. But that's so difficult to everything now is wrapped in plastic. I was complaining to my wife recently that you know, we keep buying these sleeves of organic bell peppers that are wrapped in these plastic sleeves just go right in the trash, and it drives me crazy. You know? It's it's it's ubiquitous I have a neighbor. Whom I met who is a packaging engineer. And when I went to school. I didn't know there was such a thing as a packaging engineer, but they certainly find very creative way package things. And every the styrofoam not really recyclable of those little film airbags that you get when you order something from Amazon not recycling. It keeps everything nice and safe as their UPS tossing the the box into the truck. But you can't recycle it. Yeah. And I wish I had the immediate answer right now. Because then I'd be that guy with the better mouse trap and making a buck. But it's right now, I guess I'm just the bearer of bad news. Right. Right. But I mean, like, I'm sure you get asked all the time because you work in this business like, whoa. So what's what's the most conscientious way to to continue to support recycling and not have this stuff end up in a landfill or get burned? Well for the time being while we're still doing. Single stream recycling. Make sure that what you're putting into your recycling cart or bin is clean. Make sure that when you have a bottle of detergent or milk or something along that that you're rinsing it out that it's cleaned this not when you put in there. It's not going to contaminate everything else in there, just empty and rents these things and that right? There will help keep it cleaner in terms of developing markets along the way that's gonna take awhile. You know, we very much would like to see there be markets because you know, we we we may have to right? This is good for business. Yeah. Would be a great thing to promote in the United States economic development. Right. So he's good. Right. We always like that stuff. I I work for a company that's called green for life. And we do take that seriously. But we also are cognizant of the fact that. The market has to drive this to some point in the again recyclables are commodities. All right. Well, I'm not sure that this leaves me feeling any better about the the plastics crisis facing planet earth, but shirt pre sheets you coming in and and shedding some light on it. Joe Munem is director and of government in fairs and public relations for Jeff L environmental USA, just trash hauler a composter of municipal yard waste and recycler based in Southfield. Joe? Thanks. Thank you. All right friends. That'll do it for today's edition of your daily Detroit. Thanks as always for listening. Don't forget to tell your friends and family to check us out. If you don't already subscribe to us on apple podcasts or wherever find podcasts are found for Jair Cheyenne and everyone had daily Detroit. I'm send Gustafsen take care of each other. We'll see you around Troy. You're listening to the podcast Detroit network. Visit WWW dot podcast Detroit dot com for more information.
What is democracy? A conversation with Astra Taylor
"From the Makoni institute for democracy and the studios of w PSU on the campus of Penn State university on Michael Berkman, and I'm crispy and this is democracy works season. Three chris. Yeah. Who thunk it would affect it? Well, we want to just take a minute and say, thank you all folks who around the world, really who are listening and. We appreciate your your interest and your support and glad to be out here for for another season. Yeah. Absolutely. And let us know how we're doing. And what you'd like to hear talk about and absolutely we more. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So we're starting exciting new partnership this year, Chris with WPN issue. Right. And as you the EMMY award winning. That's right. That's right. Yeah. And and we've been here all from the beginning. But we've kind of upped the ante on both sides in terms of our relationship and both well for for for both of us. I think moving forward. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's it's much to our benefit to be to be working with the professionals at w. Yeah, they may only help they both. Yeah. We always say the jet makes sense martyrdom. We are and w PSU makes us sound better. Do. So Chris we're starting we're starting season three with a with a really appropriate topic. And that is what is democracy, right? We we were fortunate enough to bring in Astra Taylor who is a an activist writer musician and most relevantly filmmaker her film, what is democracy by the time this podcast releases. It will have we will be premiering in Chicago, New York. We heard about it at the Toronto film festival in the summer of two thousand eighteen and through the work of folks. Penn State we're able to bring her in. Yeah. Yes, she starts with, you know, a very interesting question. Very important question one that we've posed ourselves to students around campus and at various events that we've been at in. That is just what do you think democracy is right and her, you know, she she she argues that. That you know, democracy is this really amorphous term and everybody kind of has this. You know, largely good feeling about it. But nobody really kind of can articulate our many people cannot ticky late what it means. And and what and most and just as importantly, what it requires of us. Right. I mean, what does it mean to be part of a democracy? What does it mean to be a citizen democracy, there, many really valuable points that come out of this this film to that to that strike me is one that democracy democracy? Involves democracy is often not at all inclusive, which seems like a of contradict history. Yeah. Right. But, you know, our own tomography started with started with slavery. And so, obviously, it's an incomplete democracy, and a democracy has has grown over time. It has become moral encompassing. But a point that she makes is that tomography is often quite limited. In terms of who it who had embraces. And and I think the second portent point that she makes concerns the the challenges for maintaining democracy in capitalist societies especially global economies. Right. So so, yeah, the the first part, you know, your first question of of, you know, who do we when we say, we the people who's we when we say all men are created equal. Who is all men? What does that mean? And you could you could write American history as being the slow and painful and. Struggle of expanding that definition, right? But when when at the point of the founding, it was all men meant all white property holding men, and that was it. Right. And so over time you've expanded that definition, but they're still many people who don't feel like they're included. Yeah. There's a natural tension between capitalism and democracy because capitalism leads inequality, and then tomography sort of celebrates quality and all voices. And but but I think thought about even more subtly if presents it presents a challenge in this way. And that is that politically elected leaders are dependent upon the functions carried out by the capitalist by those who are leaders in the capitalist economy. Well, and the film pushes it back in the Matt right? It goes back to ancient Greece in and there's a lot of quotes from Plato Plato. I mean, you know, by many regarded to be the first western philosopher. Thought that democracy was completely unsustainable for these very reasons. But I mean, I think the the fact that we're going this far is a good reason to top and bring in Astro. Jan. This is Jenna Spinelli here today with Astro Taylor Astra. Thanks for joining us for having me. So we are to talk with you about your film. What is democracy just a big question to tackle in in a documentary? But certainly explore it from many different angles. I I heard you mention in the film that you may be not intended to make a film specifically about democracy. But it was something you kept coming back to. I'm curious what you had intended to do. And what was it about this question of of democracy that kept you coming back to it? Yeah. And the film I thought it was important to include my through grappling with the film's theme. Right. And and so I think you know, I think what I am barked on the project started filming at the end of two thousand fifteen I actually wrote the first Email to my producers suggesting the idea in two thousand thirteen I actually thought well, maybe I'll come up with something beyond the Macher Assi. Maybe I will come to the conclusion that we need something new. A new word new concept new way of organizing our social life, and yet as I kept coming back to democracy. And I think for me the big takeaway of of making this film and writing the companion book that goes with his I've I've actually become more of a small democrat. It's it's sort of inspired a deep conviction in the concept and the practice and things that bothered me about the term. It's Baig nece. What does it mean? Right. All sorts of people say that they believe in democracy. I mean, North Korea has the word democratic or the blood is the People's Republic, the democratic people some critic Republicans democratic group, I'm like, my anarchist friends, you know, praise democracy, you know, George Bush bringing democracy to Iraq. Right. But it's so it's bigness I think years ago, I thought okay. Well, this is a sign that this this word has no core. Meaning it has no essence, but now actually see its MB giddy as part of its power because it's this. This promise that we can keep trying to fulfil. So you you use you've kind of come to see yourself more as as a small democrat. I would have said you were small democrat long before the back to to Occupy Wall street, and you know, even press before that what how did that Evelyn happen in your mind? Yeah. I mean, I think though, I think I didn't find the word democracy. Very exciting. It wasn't rousing. There's a sense that democracy is. I mean that it was corrupted that it it was synonymous with bureaucracy. Right. So I would have been more attracted towards like, freedom and equality and Justice and even socialism revolution. You know? I mean, democracy is I mean people like us are interested in it makes homes about it and have podcast about it. But I don't think it's a word. The most people think is exciting. And you know, in fact, my immune more typically a writer than filmmaker. I haven't made a film in ten years. And when I told my literary, and I wanted to write a book about democracy shoes. Was like oh, God that's like a borings of lesson and you're gonna kill your career. And like that she was just like wake up that is not a word that inspires people. Right. You know, and things have really changed. I think we're in a really different political moment than when when we had that a that exchange because right now, we're in a moment where people are feeling that there's a profound political crisis and feeling like, you know, a democracy that they took for granted is in decline, and the we're we're actually seeing people sort of feel like oh gosh. I better pay attention to this thing that I was ignoring and did you see some of that play out in the course of of making the film? You know, you said you started in twenty fifteen twenty sixteen I kind of content to continue on after the I'm twenty sixteen election, or no, I the last week of filming was the two thousand sixteen election. I filmed for a few days after Trump's victory. And you know, unlike most people, I was surprised I filmed at Trump rally North Carolina, I had attended one maybe two weeks prior. And that was one of my I just sort of being surrounded by his mortars in, you know, rural North Carolina. There's the sense I sort of went home and couldn't sleep. And I was like think things are not as safe as I anticipated that they were, but, but I yeah, I sort of you know, had that as sort of the horizon that the point at which I would stop shooting so things. Yeah. I think people got more concerned with democracy got more sort of panicked. And yet in a I think what's interesting about the foam, and how it turned out in the ending room is actually the footage that I shot earlier was somehow more power. I it it. It didn't lose its relevance. Because. So many problems existed then they've existed for decades, or as the film tears this show for from Alenia. So it's not an in fact, the closer we got to this sort of moment of crisis of the election. Actually, I found that people almost couldn't think the interviews weren't as good because people were just in the state of panic. That was not very philosophical if that makes sense. Yeah. They'll come any kind of like uncovering these issues that that had been there all along people tend been thinking about talking about. Yeah. And so I mean, I was pursuing political themes in my interviews. And and so the things that people are raising in two thousand fifteen you know, are still relevant in a way there's sort of the the. Cause of the crisis that we're now in in all of my work, whether it's my writing or my filmmaking. I my temperament is always to emphasize continuity, and to sort of put change in its place. So I wrote a book called the people's platform. That's about you know, the digital revolution. And you know, my my thesis and the introduction is that. We've we've downplayed continuity that actually the problems with our communications or sort of digital communications as I are actually the problems that existed in the old media landscape, so consolidation commercialism. These are problems that have carried over. Sure. Right. And so when we sort of say, there's been a revolution talk about sort of novelty or stunned by the fact that we have a tiny computer in our pockets where Norring these sort of beer trends that are these longer translate are really essential. And so the film, you know, has a sort of similar protein in the sense that it's like, yes. Something and president it has happened. But also, you can see. Similar dynamics read history into the foam goes back to Plato and the Republican and warnings about the demagogue. And you you ask several people in in the film questions that that that we've been asking that you know, what is democracy means to you. And when when I've asked I've gone, everything from from the patriarchy to volunteering at at a nonprofit, and you also got a a whole range of responses to that question and new people brought up freedom and Justice and quality. And I'm wondering if the the fact that democracy is something that people can have project all of these different things onto it's a good thing. Or you know, how to how does that kind of help us get to a shared definition of what it is. I think the fact people have different answers a good thing. But I actually I didn't find that people had answers that were particularly in depth. And actually, nobody said democracy was equality to me. That was a word that that I sort of expected to hear. But it wasn't something. I encountered. So I got a lot of I, you know, I found that when I really engage people started asking they could they could have quite interesting things to say about their lives and and the political situation. But when I pose directly, the the question, what is democracy, you know, their their answers could be kind of cursory or or there could be platitudes. And I think that's a sign that like that's a symptom that that's a symptom that something is wrong. Right. That people can't really robustly. Or personally. Explain this concept that is supposedly so essential to our society. Right. And I think part of the problem is that democracy is. I mean, people really do a lot of you know, and we, yeah, we we, you know, hold up elections. So yeah, you have your, you know, trip to the voting booth or maybe you have the sort of fleeting. Euphoria of street protests. But I don't think democracy is people really feel they experienced today. And that's part of why I think people have a hard time defining it the other. We talk all the time on the show about democracy is is hard work. It's going to meetings having conversations with people, you might not agree with, and, you know, trying to to have a sense, of empathy. You know, co China to understand where other people are are coming from one thing. I did not hear express in the film was notion of of classical liberalism, so norms institutions those those kind of things that factor at all into to your thought process in you, putting the film together. Yeah. I mean, I think it at different points. There was a lot more about the rule of law, and and sort of thinking about because I sort of thought about different sort of tensions in democracy is going into it. And so when we sort of like rule of law or the rule of the people rights sort of and. That it just didn't end up being the most compelling issue. So there is stuff. I mean, there's stuff about sort of structure. Nobody uses the word norms. But there's stuff about structure and rules woven throughout the film. You know in sort of who writes the roles and Reverend Barbara talks about attacks on voting rights. You know, one point Wendy Brown made a more sort of direct comparison between sort of liberalism, a sort of Roussell, Ian vision of popular sovereignty. But no all of my test veers were like miser glazing over and you liberalism is hard to define as democracy is. I mean, that's that's a at the big invade concept there too. So everything was like a can of worms like throw in a word like oh my God. Now, we have to have to have to go into find this. So I think I think this the issue of structure is is there, but it's implicit in. You know in the one person who sort of makes the case for really norms, but the rule of law. Is an Afghan refugee Zanu. Yeah. We need to have systems we need to have systems of punishment. Like, you know, we can't just have you know, total freedom or even some romantic idea that if we are free will just collaborate in all be great. So I mean part of it is part of my attempt also was to raise these fundamental. Issues, but in language is not necessarily the typical academic or philosophical language because when regular people, meaning just, you know, we're all regular people, but meaning non experts, meaning those of those of us who don't, you know, read and engage the scholarly literature. I mean people bring up these issues, they don't use the academic or philosophical, or you know, blessing rhetoric. So I think it I feel like sort of hinted at but it's just in in sort of. Yeah. Common common tongue. Do you? Do you have a a sense of where the line between democracy and populism is I think kind of like, you know, absent some of the liberalism, and you roll of loss hypoth- things there's there's kind of a slippery slope. Yeah, I'm still thinking through the the term populism because so I think I think there there's a lot of right now. That's also another word, liberalism, and like democracy, there's huge literature around it, and it sort of up for debate. And I think there's a a battle over different definitions of populism. And there are attempts to claim populism on the left in the right. I think the right is making a much more successful pitch. I noticed actually a lot of conservative intellectual actually calling themselves now populous, and which is interesting. So, you know, this this idea of popular sovereignty is in the foam, right that okay? If by its classical definition, democracy is the people ruling. But I didn't I am. I didn't get into. Okay, we'll win does that slip into populism. And I have to say there's a way in which the Republican is being used now. Mostly by liberals that's bothering me. And it's it's basically this sort of thing tarnishing people on the far right in the far left as populous equally. And in fact, I've been sort of tarnished as as a populist by a very prominent liberal writers, though, I was like the double of Steve Bannon because I organize debtors. I basically, you know, what I'm not making phone to writing organize around student debt and. And try to help people have fair terms or get that abolition if they've gone to fraudulent predatory colleges, you know, I'm not I don't know. So that's where I start to worry that the term has kind of lost some of its. You know, lost some of its purpose or or. Yeah. Kind of the Steve Bannon ization of it or kind of. Yeah. I mean, it just can't be a synonym for everything. We don't like, you know, whether it's coming whatever side it's coming from. So I'm trying to figure out what the proper role is. I mean, you know, I think you know, I think America has a very interesting tradition of like capital p populism that was a specific historical political movement. But I'm still wrestling with what that word means this moment, and and it's on something I would define myself as so when somebody says, I fit in it, and I go. What's going on the the film as it's coming to an end Cornell west talks a little bit about dust riske's paradox. Can you explain what that I think that's that that's kind of relevant to in? This argument about the the hard work of of of democracy, and why people might not necessarily be inclined to do it outside of things like voting or those kind of momentary. Okay. Well, I mean the question I, you know. The film is trying to look at some of the structures that are preventing democratic processes and expressions. You know, so there's a lot in the foam about the role of finance and the power of markets, and you know, in sort of minority rule, you know, but then at the end of the film. I I asked the question, which is, you know, we'll do people want to rule themselves. I mean, do people want to be free? And and I think you know, it's tough question. I'm in philosophers of existential long talked about sort of abyss of freedom. And the fact that people retreat from it or flee from it. And and you know, I think the the thing is there's you know, as as as Cornell says there's a lot of evidence on this sort of negative lead side of the ledger. Right that, you know, people don't wanna be free that democracy democratic processes have enabled sort of, you know, the rise of fascism and all sorts of an appealing things and. And yet on the other side lo and behold, a lot of great ideas have come from below right? I mean, a lot of the principals and the progress that we've Allieu have come from people who we might think we shouldn't trust. So, you know, I think I think that tension is really fundamental, and you know, in I think as a woman, right? If you go back, and you sort of read. The historical record. And there's all these, you know, smart guys. We can't let women have the vote. I mean, they're just so irrational. And by the way, the husband has them covered. It's all good. You know, you think? Okay. Well, then that means that you know, not that long ago. I was part of this, you know, untrustworthy mob. So who am I to project onto people that they can't be trusted today? The film also spends a good time talking about the notion of of inequality economic inequality, racial inequality, and that's we there's certainly lots of of folks. Amy can't really fix what's wrong with democracy until we solve these other. These other issues of of inequality, did you gain any understanding through the course of making this film about how we might do that what some of the the steps to to take might be. No, it's one of those questions like so hard that like it's cart even know where to start to to detangle it. Yeah. I mean, I'm definitely of the mindset that you cannot have political equality that people can enjoy. Political rights that they have on paper in under conditions of extreme inequality. Right. So I the question though, of how to rein in the engines that are producing these conditions, and this amends concentration of wealth. It's a real challenge. So I part of the film is and that's the work. I do as an activist. So the work around debt is looking at what it what I'm really trying to do with my colleagues. The collective is open up a new avenue to fight inequality. So there have been labor unions for, you know, a long time fighting for economic economic reform by using the workplaces the site to build power. So the idea of that we're operating on is that debtors can also organize and use their debts as a form of asset. And a as that, you know, that isn't asset, and so you can use that as a form of power to advocate for change. And you know, there's. Things about that are really make it hard. So for example, that don't share workplace. But then the upside of that is that it these conditions of indebtedness also bond people who live in different areas. So it's some sort of transcends the urban rural divide and unites people of different races and genders and ages. So, you know, but it's it's a challenge. How do we get people to go from their personal condition of, you know, having to go into debt because they're not paid enough or because they don't have access to affordable education or healthcare. And then create a strategy that can then, you know, produce a change within the financial system or the state when when those structures are also embedded in a global economy. So the film is you know, trying to honor how how immense the challenges right now. But I think you know, the answer is organizing, right? And that's you know, we know that you know, the period of ROY. Relative, you know, relatively equal income distribution coincided with there being strong labor unions, and and you know, a different sort of economic, you know, new deal, influenced international system. So we have to change the structures and to do that people have to be organized. So as we can start to to bring things close here, you you mentioned earlier that you have a companion book to your film coming out. So where where does the the book pick up? Yeah. So I think I don't know how other people at it movies without having this idea in their mind that it's okay can all go in the companion book because otherwise you have to kill your darlings. The book the book makes explicit eleven things that are implicit in the film, cinematic language and book language, if that's what is called the just very different. I mean, and it's also them in a really different way. The film for me as a space to let people speak, and there's just kind of politics of listening to the film that really. Matters to me. It's it's, you know, I'm able to show people who we might not assume are experts in democracy and show them, you know, alongside quotes from Plato and into kind of, you know, create the sort of democratic chorus that I think is to me. I I still find it powerful to see these young woman sort of take the stage. An older women too. I mean, all sorts of people who, you know, we don't often see in in philosophical films. If we see philosophical films. The book is. Yeah. The each each chapter of the book is about a sort of paradox tension that I think will be with democracy as long that we have something that resembles democracy or is moving towards democracy in. It's it's really about the fact that, you know, it's a it's a process that's on ending and is requires a lot of attention and a lot of work. Yeah. Up. Can you give us an example of what some of those paradoxes are? Yeah. So when paradoxes structure versus spontaneity coercion purses concentre choice one is you know, to there's also the tensions of space, the local versus the global and of time the present versus the future. And you know, there's a lot in this in the book that will be familiar to people who do political science and political theory. But I I, you know, I'm I'm hoping that by taking these putting these tensions sort of friends center at it provides sort of new perspective on these on these issues, and you know, in line with the film it mixes mix. Voices. So they're sort of from below invoices from above voices from history invoices from now, and I think, you know, the the form and the of the book is, you know, a pretty unique. But the Conde mixes mixes people up, I think is also democratic. So after doing all this work, the the book, and the film. What is democracy means? You have to. Yeah. So I think democracy is a promised going back to that. But I think it's not a promise that the powerful make and then break, right? We go. You know, they're not doing our democracy for us. I really think it's a promise that can only be fulfilled by the people taking the time in and thinking and acting, you know in making it as real as it can be they can ever just be fulfilled. It's not something that we ever just grasping. Then we get to just relax inn tweak on the margins. I really think it's a perpetual struggle. So I think in the in the book, I'm like. The, you know, yes, we had our founding fathers. But I think we need to be perennial midwives birthing this democracy into being right? Well, that's that's a a great message to announce certainly in line with the theme of our show kind of everything that we're trying to do with with our podcast here. We're gonna close as we always do with our four mood of the nation poll questions. I don't know this. So not ready. We'll think of this like like a lightning round four emotions thinking specifically about American politics. So again, thinking specifically about American politics. What makes you angry? Oh my God. What makes me angry? Not funny. My mind is like God feel like if I opened the gate they'll just be so many things what makes me angry hubris. What makes you proud? Where's the stints? What makes you worry? Oh climate change. And what gives you hope the people? All right. I think those might be our shortest answers ever. So you have to cap to the lightning round for short. Thank you so much for your. Great questions. All right. Well, there's there's a lot to chew on in that discussion. One thing that I thought was interesting, and I thought really true is her argument that or what she said that democracy means anything you want it to mean. And so you can have everybody from Kim Jong UN to the folks that Occupy Wall street to George W Bush all saying, we were vans and democracy. Well, you know, if we've as we've discussed with some of our other guests or certainly in our book review episode going back to two full seasons as right? Yeah. You know, democracy can lead to very undemocratic sort of outcomes, or at least emocracy can lead to very illiberal sorts of outcomes democracy can lead to very thorough -tarian alka. So there's there's a lot wrapped up in these terms. It is difficult and a lot to expect of people on the street. Anyway. To, you know, recognize that when you're talking about democracy, and the idea that the people rule you're not necessarily talking about. Although you are in the American case talking about the protection of rights and freedoms, and and minority rights as well, which are very much built into the American political system and are a reflection more of a small l liberalism than they necessarily are of of democracy. No. That's clearly that's clearly, right. You with if you simply have democracy without any concern for the the rights of the minority and the rights to say things at the majority doesn't like or believe what the majority doesn't want you to believe without those rights. You know, Plato's argument is correct. That democracy is not sustainable that it will inevitably lead to either anarchy or tyranny. And so so and that is exactly what we've said. The the founders were so concerned about and so why there's a Bill writes, right? And why the courts are set up to defend those rights because if you leave it to there's a point in the film, where Cornell west is saying, you know, my rights as a black man are not because of democracy there because of the least democratic institutions in American society. Right. Indeed. I mean when you look back at that period, you're at a time where where African Americans had very few democratic rights and their their their ability to vote was highly restricted they had very little representation and any policy making bodies where they could live or what job. I mean, the American political system is set up with protections against democracy because those were democratic outcomes exact those were democratic outcomes, but the American political system is set up with a counter majoritarian court system, you know, which ultimately with which ultimately overturned much of much of segregation through through Brown. Another coordination's. The American political system is also set up with these protections affor- assembly and speech that allow for social movements and protest and dissent outside of elected political bodies. And and so there's a lot that goes beyond simple democratic rights in the American political system that can allow for actual freedom and for just more just outcome. So yeah. So she mentioned mockery Kalita, very unjust outcomes. And without these and the the argument is that without these liberal, the the bulwarks of liberalism, it inevitably will lead to those outcomes because people aren't naturally just they aren't naturally, you know, accommodating to the minority point of view. And so it is only and so the point is that if you're going to say what's the difference between populism and democracy or what's the difference between? Populism and a working democracy. It is the fact that these that populism is constrained that the majority will is constrained, and you can't that you know, you cannot decide everything by majority will right and populism. Also has this element of of an us against them built into it, which is more about that divisive. And I mean, that's why populism can be on the left and the right? And this idea of, you know, rising inequality is undermining democracy that too is a theme that that you can trace throughout the history of America or a western political thought the idea that if you have wealthy people if the wealthy people just keep becoming wealthy and the poor people just don't have any opportunity even with democracy to to constrain that power than democracy becomes either a sham. Cam or it descends into suppose. Although I I think maybe it's a little bit more useful not to think of it in terms of wealthy people or not, but just the capital is very mobile in a global economy, and the the very mobility of capital gives it a certain kind of power, and we saw this in the United States to just think back to the times when we had a really dominant sort of textile industry in New England or automobile industry, and these were relatively immobile sorts of sorts of economic enterprise, they needed to be where they were and that gave political that gave the people in those areas and politicians in those areas certain amount of political leverage the had to be there. Right. And this also, I think aloud labor union grow, very strong jobs. But it was when automobile industry, for example, learn that it can move out to Japan or down to the south same with the textile industry move off to Asia or down into, you know, South Carolina or something or Latin America. Then than that mobility of capital gives it a certain kind of power over people and democratically elected leaders because you're all trying to get a hold of this mobile cap. I mean, just think about the kinds of offers at cities around the United States were making try to get Amazon when they said, you know, we're going to build a plant, and you know, so when they're talking about offering tax breaks of different times, they're basically saying we're going to do less on our public sector if that's what we need to do. Right. Because because because we need to get you. Right. We want you're doing we need jobs that you're offering and and your mobile and can go anywhere. Right. And so that puts you in a strong position over us. And I think that's part of you know, that that starts to get at why this sort of global economy is such a challenge for democracy now on the other side of it offers us tools for democracy like social media potentially that we might have had before. Well, it creates incredible wealth. Yes. So all valuable points movie raises, all kinds of all kinds of issues. Many of which you know, nice way to open the season, right because lots of many issues, which I know we're going to address later podcasts during the season, for example, where we're gonna talk in in some detail about inequality, and and where comes from and why at least in the American context economic inequality and how that plays into political inequality. And how it, you know, how how it sets the terms for a democratic society, and, you know, whether or not, you know, at some point in equality becomes so extreme that it makes it hard to sustain a democracy. What are those points? How do we identify them? What do we do about them? So this is a really good kind of entree into our season three where we're laying out some big issues and were once again, reinforcing the idea that democracy is hard. It's not natural. It's not easy. And it really requires something of all of us in if it's going to work. Well, yes. And and what a great what a great way to start our season with this film that gets right at right at some of the issues that the needs to democracy is concerned about what is democracy, right? Yeah. So thanks to Jenna thanks to Astra for for coming into campus and for shorter movies, so generous with their time, and thanks to all you for for listening. I'm I'm crispy on Michael Berkman, and this is democracy works. Microscopes is produced by them. According institute for democracy at Penn State and WPN issue. Penn State our hosts are Michael Berkman, crispy him and me Jenna Spinelli Andy grant is our engineer and Mark titters our editor additional support comes from Emily ready. Sharon, Stanford Craig Johnson and the rest of the team at WPN issue for details. Show notes and discussion questions for each episode. Visit our website at democracy works podcast dot com. And if you like what you heard today, please consider rating or reviewing us wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.
110: Joshua Wong on Hong Kong
"Welcome to pure nonfiction the podcast interviewing documentary film-makers. I'm Tom Powers the artistic director of New York's Documentary Festival Doc N._Y._C.. I see this episode. I talked to activists Joshua Wong. He's the subject of the netflix documentary Joshua Joshua teenager versus superpower at the age of fourteen Joshua started protesting moves by the Chinese government to exert more control over his city of Hong Kong before I involved in politics. I'm just student a normal kid. I went to school at Fordham and study but those days are now as of just focusing on Eh G._p._A.. Why don't try to count on this? In the history goes back to nineteen ninety-seven when Joshua was only one years old that year Hong Kong changed its status from a British colony to join the People's Republic of China as part of the transition Hong Kong kept its own laws including freedoms of Press and assembly the slogan in China was One Country Two Systems but but that philosophy has repeatedly tested is leaders in Beijing tried to inject more of their system in two thousand eleven China move to impose its national education curriculum into Hong Kong schools that was the move that sparked Joshua and his friends to form a protest group called scholar ISM founded scoring some while I'm fourteen years so we'll have to do is just the bond for freedom of mind and freedom of speech to show disagreement brainwashing education in Joshua teenager versus superpower we watch is their small grassroots effort grows into a massive act of civil disobedience in two thousand fourteen thousands of protesters conducted a ST occupation known as the umbrella movement that resulted in a violent backlash from the police. The movement called for greater democracy in choosing Hong Kong's leaders offers instead of having them picked in Beijing Hong Kong should be decided by Hong Kong's instead of China stuffer Joshua's prominence has caused him to be physically attacked and persecuted this year. He spent two two months in prison for charges dating back to the twenty fourteen protests he was released last month. Just as a new wave of Hong Kong protests were taking place with over a million people in the streets. My meeting with him took place two years ago. At the Sundance Film Festival when Joshua teenager versus superpower had its premiere he was joined by the film's American director Joe Piscopo Tele. They are surprised pairing in a way piss Catala has a background writing animated cartoons including the Disney movie underdog but he since focused on real life underdogs his first documentary was called Hashtag Chicago girl about an American teenager using the Internet to support Syria's revolution following that he was brought into Joshua's story by producers Andrew Duncan and Matthew Tourne their team had been filming with Joshua from early on so let's get into this conversation recorded in January. Ury 2017 when Joshua was nineteen. It starts with Joe explaining how the film covered the umbrella movement from a multitude of sources we found there was this network of citizen journalists that were on the ground in Hong Kong. Who Do you know captured things that either our cameras couldn't get didn't get or that? We just couldn't be at and suddenly we found you could just fill out anything you needed some kids with cell phones and cameras somebody somewhere shot and it was just a matter of tapping into that network and finding them Joshua. You have a lot of media attention. At what point did you become aware that you know Joe wanted to make a film about you that this group of American filmmakers wanted to make a film about you and and how how were you thinking about it a few years ago I met Andrew in New York and Andrew told me that his quite interested to my story and hope it to produce a to international documentary the Latte more people to know about the situation in Hong Kong aw stowed that's the starting more for me to involve in this porject and I'm quite enjoy it and I just <hes> watch this documentary last November for the first time and and a second time is few days ago and I having how this documentary record my six year and these would be in spot. I just hope it can inspire more people so did the project get going before the umbrella movement of fall of two thousand fourteen or were you kind of starting the project after that had already taken place footage had been being films really since two thousand late two thousand eleven early two thousand twelve and then there was just cameras were rolling and I think we're trying to figure out what he can do with the story and the story just kept going on and on and I came onto it later and just realized there was just an amazing amount of footage that our producer Matthew Horne had been getting and between that and and some of the footage that we're getting from citizen journalists there was just kind of the first half of the movie was already. There was a matter of how to capture the second half and figure out what the ending is for these kids story at least this chapter of it so Joshua. This film really begins. I think you were around fourteen years old and <hes> leading a movement around the issue of education in Hong Kong. Can you explain to people who haven't seen the film what that movement was. What why you were going out in the streets of Hong Kong is under the rule of China but is still have <hes> approximation of autonomy but in recent year China offerman just increased inference and interference to Hong Kong and one in six years ago two thousand eleven it planned to introduce the national education school curriculum and it's forced every student in Hong Kong? She's showed a loyalty to Communist Party of China so I just found a student activist group and through <hes> Street Promotion Rally demonstration and in two thousand trout resell with hundred thousand people occupy on a street for nine days and it forced government to put aside to implementation of school curriculum and we successfully <hes> win in this battle of the anti brainwashing education school curriculum from starting with just only one hundred people in the rally and result in hundred trick thousand people and occupy syphis obedience. There's a journalist in the film who essentially says you for Hong Kong parent this would be no one's idea of a great plan for their kids like most Hong Kong. Parents want their kids to focus on schools not get politically active. Keep their head down. Why are you different <hes> sometime? I think I'm still a normal high school student or university student but it's lucky that in Hong Kong a lot of parents are just similar to tiger mom or had caught a parents of to control the Sano daughters and enter the best university and finally draw job in the middle class and professionals and earn and by the flat in the future but <hes> it's lucky that my parents do not really control me all unlimited my own personal development and they just give me enough room romance space to do what I warned so lucky that I read that great moment that and let me to enforce in system movement even they're not the one who really interested in politics interesting. What were your inspirations like? I think Bank of young activists in the United States maybe we'd take inspiration from Martin Luther Cain young activists in South Asia might take inspiration from Gandhi <hes>. I wonder what your influences were. <hes> I know have a particular role all modal for me at starting point of involving system movement because I think <hes> Gandhi and Nelson Mandela of course they are the one who we admire <hes> and we reveal feel faint. They're the one who quenched a lot in the previous day but in Hong Kong after I political system cultural history but what we hope is just have a simple reflection in interesting for being a citizen lift Hong Kong. If this place with born we live and we love. How can we contribute to the development of our society? Joe As as tensions were mounting during the fall of two thousand fourteen for the team of people who are working on this film covering the citizens <hes> movement were there challenges to practice in journalism and Hong Kong there were in you know as the <unk> as matthew torn can attest to win when they started filming it was fairly easy you could roll the camera whenever you want and then just as the story went on and on it just got harder and harder to film there were more police crackdowns. There was more adversity to try to get footage out. We were doing things like hiding hard drives or or stashing hard drives and other places in case the hard drive you took to the airport got snatched <hes> so suddenly we really had to look at. How are you going to get the story out because it just wasn't as simple as it was well when they started filming in two thousand twelve when you describe those measures were they ultimately precautionary or or did the people working on this film ever have hard-drive stake in or things like that we didn't have any issues with hard drives being taken we had issues issues <hes> at certain rallies where cameramen were targeted with pepper spray <hes> but for the most part it ended up <hes> it was precaution just we didn't know if you're going to get to the airport where your car was going to get pulled over and you're going to have to hand over everything you just shot? Josh Lewin in the course of this. You've experienced physical attacks. You've done some short stints in jail and with a lot of legal pressure hanging over you and I wonder where you draw your courage from I grow my curry from my whole future <hes> and compared through I will say that compared to a lot of <hes> politician or activists they may already graduated from. You knew I e they need to worry for salary and where we're for their parents and even in there's I'll off burdened from maybe their son or daughter's is not easy for them to stand in front line but with our burden from my family and <hes> I'm still in school. I need to worry about finding a job in the future even having Israel half for me to find in the future but I would say that <hes> greater inference come of greater responsibility and greater responsibility come with greater price and I just hope to fru the inference developed since the anti-national education brainwashing movement and to let more people to know that is the time for the new generation nation to commit on the Democracy Movement <hes> it's not easy row for us the path to US democracy face aloft challenging time and come kate issue but <hes> in this long term battle fight against the largest communist regime in the world we just kept on and fight and I'm always remember myself. Hope for the best prepare for the worst and stupid optimistic I lift one day. We can't get back democracy in Hong Kong and even China Joe is someone who's an outsider to this movement but obviously spent a lot of time thinking about it and in watching it. I'm sure you feel a closeness to the people who are on screen in this film. I wonder what Oh you think of the the dynamics of this movement strikes me that the last film you made Chicago Girl It captures kind of hopeful time in the Arab spring in Syria and in years since then you know that's become more darker and darker so I wonder as you watch this movement progress. What your hopes fears for were my hopes obviously are that you know? Joshua and all of his friends get to achieve what they set out to achieve that everybody in Hong Kong gets that freedom and democracy that they have fought so hard for my fears are that it's getting worse I mean even since we've stopped rolling cameras <hes> Nathan who you meet in the film who is elected the Legislative Council at the end as now under enormous pressure. I mean the the government is suing him. They're trying to bankrupt him. They're trying to force him out of office. <hes> Joshua a couple of weeks ago I along with Nathan were in the Taipei airport and they were attacked. They were attacked a second time coming into the Hong Kong airport. I mean these are areas that are supposed to have high security and they're not and just looking at the tactics that are being used. They're more brazen than they were a year ago or or eighteen months ago. That's my fear is that you know China's not GonNa stop on this and you've got these kids who I've grown very attached to and you just want what's best for them because I have such admiration and such respect for the way that they have stood up and and raised their hand and said what's going on isn't okay Joshua we want in the film the umbrella movement and the occupy movement where you and your fellow protesters for several months were were occupying a portion of of Hong Kong and ultimately it comes to an end and people are cleared out and I wonder with perspective what you think were the positive things that came out of that movement and in what were the disappointments to disappointment is clearly to let people know that are worth commit in a movement for seventy nine Aqaba on the street but <hes> we still can reach political reform until this Mormon <hes> ship executive election is only allowing. One thousand two hundred pro-beijing elites tycoons to vote and usually it will even be the one bank one moat and those paying at a Pro China Bank <hes> so in umbrella of member can reach the goal of political reform and universal versus suffrage but with a new generation leader awareness and international community support I think is also the things that we gain positively after the movement and just like after the after umbrella movement how the international community's still kept in Hong Kong and showed a strongly support to Hong Kong and especially in Hong Kong the press freedom is continuing eroded by China. Most of the newspaper in Hong Kong has already sent in a site of Beijing so is necessary to get international media to support us and besides I will say that with the new generation political awareness required a miracle in last year September Election Nathan Nathan in-law booster umbrella of student leader Stuart Twenty four years old university student and his successfully being elected to the legislative council member and is the youngest lawmaker in Hong History. I belived before the umbrella data movement. No one will believe I universities and university student can become a legislator but with the spirit of umbrella movement and we just bring our voice and our courage from the street to the council from the civil society to the institution and it done we wish to go in last year September Joe It is you've talked to other journalists who covered this territory I wanted to do do people see this as something really localized to Hong Kong or some of this spirit of democracy movement do they see it crossing over into other parts of China. I think the hope is that the will cross over into other parts of China I when I took on this story yes it was a local story and it was something that was local just to Hong Kong but my goal with it was how do you make it a more universal story. How do you focus on these characters? How do you get people to get behind something something this big I mean it's something I've found whether it might my last film? This film is it's very hard to get people to pay attention to a particular issue but if I can get them to care about somebody like Joshua then they're going to pay attention to the issue at hand the judge. I wonder how how you see it to talk about China being one Country Two Systems. Your efforts in the film are really focused on Hong Kong. How much do you see that movement crossing over into the rest of China? I know it is the gateway first step for democratization in China because Hong Kong is already the Black Bass is having the highest poverty to reach to democracy human rights and freedom so if we hope finally China can get democracy back to I is Lat Hong Kong back democracy so being one of the Hong Kong people and also living under the rule of China government. I think people in Hong bear a huge responsibility to get a first step up for re democratization under the rule of Communist Party of China. We happen to be speaking two days. After Donald Trump's inauguration there are a lot of concerns in this country about the future of democracy here and and threats to free speech and I wonder you know if you think there are things to be learned from from the events in this film that can. Be Applied to America today. I think so I mean I think the film for me has taken on a secondary meaning even from since since I finished it just within the last couple of months and I look at how Joshua has gone out and inspired an entire generation in his home and I think that we could use some of that here too you know people who are just willing to stand up and look at what is going on in our own country and say. I don't think this is okay and we need to figure out how to fix it Joshua. I'm sure you've got your hands full just focused on the issues in your own country but I wonder how the U._S.. Election looks to you. I wish it the United States last November after the day of Elections so oh it short of people with the election results and I will say that the lesson that can learn <hes> for people in U.. S. or in different countries if you're hoping society get changed don't just as passive citizen boats and do nothing if you're hop- society get changed action. Social movement is the way out to let people <hes> consolidate the civil society and create a miracle in the future job <unk>. A Jesuit described seen the film for the first time in November. What was it like for you to share the film with him? <hes> did you have concerns about that experience. I did W- anytime you make a film about somebody you just do your terrified Rafael. They're gonNA turn to you and say that wasn't it or that. Just didn't work for me. I wasn't in the room with Joshua when he watched it. One of our producers was with them in screen at Forum and Joshua. Actually they called me on the phone and Joshua said that was amazing thing and it's that moment of relief. You're like okay. We can go together when when you watch Joshua. was there anything that stood out to you anything that surprised you anything that you hadn't noticed as you would experience at the first time <hes> of course of footage I experienced that I love this documentary because it record this journey especially those happy memory with student in Scott Tourism Komo Sisto the new political party Howie start from zero and continue to consolidate and to build up our organization and push for the movement and create one and one for me so oh I would say that I really thank you for Horford documentary production team to put a lot of effort to record too happy memory of this six year journey thank Josh Won- and Joe Has Catella for speaking with me for conversation was recorded in January twenty seventeen the Sundance Film Festival. You can watch the documentary Joshua UH teenager versus superpower on Netflix. Thanks to our team series producer Hannah Norden Swan Sound Recordist Michael Scottie Junior and web designer diner cross strategy our theme music is composed by Andre Williams. Our executive producer is Rafael Nate housing you can follow us on twitter instagram or facebook at pure nonfiction. I'm I'm Tom Powers. You can follow me on twitter at T. H.. O. M. Powers you can read our show notes. Learn about live events and sign up for our newsletter pure. Not Fiction Dot net.
TIP301: Grant Williams & Luke Gromen Talk Global Macro Economics (Business Podcast)
"You're listening to t I P on today's show. We have two huge guests. Mr Grant, Williams the CO founder of revision TV and the popular website. Things that make you go, not only do. We have grant, but we also have Mr Luke Roman, who's the founder of the research firm, the forest for the trees. Both of these guys are two of the smartest macro thinkers I know so get ready for an incredible episode as we cover all things happening in the global economy today. You're listening to the investors podcast well. We studied the financial markets and read the books that influenced self made billionaires the most. We keep you informed and prepared for the unexpected. Hey everyone welcome to the investors podcast I'm your host Preston Pishin is always accompanied by co? Stig Broder Sin. And, like we said in the Intro, we've got grant Williams here Luke, Roman guys man. It's awesome to have you here. He this is so. This is what I've got in mind for this episode every time I have a conversation with folks like yourself. It seems like when we stop recording all the best conversation and all the best questions for each other kind of comes out, and since you guys have done a lot of interviews, I'm kind of curious if you've seen the same thing happen. So what I WANNA do is just have a conversation like that where we can basically ask each other. Whatever's on your mind whatever kind of up in the air right now and so for me the thing that I wanna talk about to kind of kick this off I want to hear grants thoughts on something that Luke had posted the other day and Luke. You posted this thing about China offloading their debt. And their dollar denominated debt into the emerging market. Tell grant the little bit about your post and I want to capture grants thoughts on it. Is that the one that they were talking about basically some sort of jubilee or forgiveness for? Market data. I just thought it was interesting. I thought it was a bit of a geopolitical contest going on with basically US China bowls trying to ply both honey and vinegar to the rest of the world to basically pick one side of the other, so I just thought it was interesting. Signpost I don't know fully what make but I'd love to hear your thoughts on brand because it was interesting to me. The timing is amazing for me I. wrote a piece. I published Shifts Lake cooed the long telegram. There was a memorandum published by the US on May Twentieth. especially a memorandum from the US, it came out of the National Security, council under the presidential sale, and it would basically a essentially declared war and China I just a fascinating a fascinating place in the region, the opening couple of paragraphs right, it says this is from the White House. Since the United States and the People's Republic of China established diplomatic relations in nineteen seventy nine United States policy toward the PSA was largely premised on a hope that deepening engagement would spur fundamental economic and political opening in the PSE and lead to its emergence as a constructive and responsible global stay called with a more open. Society Only forty years later it's become evident that this approach underestimated the will of the Chinese Communist Party to constrain the scope of economic and political reform in China. Is Reformed slowed stalled reversed. Let's say the pay has chosen instead to exploit the free and open rules based order an attempt to reshape the international system, and it's five. Now, that's just the first two paragraphs. This thing goes on, and it's an extraordinary document and people should absolutely look this up and read it because as it's a defacto declaration of war against China. And when I write about this I went back to the Cold War, and there was a guy in the embassy in the Soviet Union George Kennan, he was a lifelong civil servant, and he wrote a telegram back to the State Department in Washington. He was asked for his opinions when the Russians were refusing to endorse the IMF nineteen, forty six, refusing to endorse the world. World, bank and styling gets up and makes a speech which as appointed. That was very much within the Soviet doctrine at the time. This shouldn't of caused anyone to even bat an eyelid, but he basically said capitalism and communism cannot coexist peacefully, and we're here to make sure that communism wins, and so they ask Kenan what this meant and his boss on the ambassador said. As you see fit, and this guy wrote a five and a half. Thousand Would Telegraph. where he pulled no punches, he basically called out the Soviet said this. This is wall. We cannot do anything the best we can do contain them, and it set the policy for the Cold War essentially, and that's what we've just seen happen, and the amazing thing to me is look you posted. Pepper posted coming so soon after this, this article was posted my twentieth and it was literally within a matter of days that the stuff in Hong Kong happened right with Beijing cramming through security laws in Hong Kong. If you think that's anything other than a tactic is not, this is the way it's going to be. We're GONNA hold back. So I think luke, this idea of trying to lead and talk about forgiving. Emerging market debt is a classic play right this everyone's GonNa aside and so I just think it's a really important article one you posted, and so is this telegram toes this memorandum from the State Department. And I think we're entering a very difficult period that could be fraught with conflict and too big POWs very much at odds with each other. We wrote a report about it. The thing that really grabbed me is is I think it was on the second page? Is the US overtly stated that it is a new great power competition and I thought the same thing I sent it to another good friend of mine in the business, and his reply was gosh. A war scroll I think there's some real eyebrows raised in terms of what that said Marguerite turn in terms of just okay. If we're going to be a great power competition than I think the rule out of the rules, rules of geopolitics, the which reflect maybe this debt forgiveness attempt by China and your point on Hong Kong grant which is very well taken. They. Start to reshape rules of finance in a way back to Cold War markets, great power, competition markets, and quite frankly might be the. There's a lot of market. Participants are using the post Cold War Lens to evaluate what is sort of new Cold War markets are very very early in his new cold, War markets, which I get some interesting implications. And if you think about this dramatic side of Hong Kong itself and the financial data that's flowing in and out, it's just a treasure trove of nut just data, but also networking effects for them strategically, and then you can end in the social unrest in the US and some could see that as number Tuni. Exactly right, and if you look at some of the propaganda in China about the unrest in the US I mean it is, they've gone full force with this. Stuff is a picture of It's kind of a cartoon, but there's a statue of liberty kind of with a utopian chaos, and out of the green shale is like a policeman kneeling on some on the bottom of it. I mean it's not pulling any punches and the quotes that have come out from professors at various universities in China, obviously free speech, but what they're saying is clearly party directed, and it's all about the hegemony. It's all about. These trap being real. It's all about the US quote. Unquote Manic towards the People's Republic of China. You've got both sides kind of coming together you harmony in the White House and amongst Republican policy at pointing the finger. China! You're going to have the Democrats also struggle to be pro China so. This is all coming together and nobody does a better job than Luke of paying attention to this stuff. He's work around. This is lot of anybody. Frankly, and what's happening over in that part of the world is a lot of our attention, because things could get kind of very shaky very fast over there I think. So. How does oil play in some of this moon for? I don't think anybody ever expected. The negative price dumped that we. That was insane. What's crazy negative price dump or hurts up one hundred percent often to carry bankruptcy. mean. I. Don't know I thought. I'd seen to own the oil thing now. It's crazy. I saw that I saw that post today on the hurts thing and and I had to go look like they declare bankruptcy, and then the stock prices I mean it's. It's just a total meltdown. Bit in every which direction you wouldn't expect you know as a little kid and when you're in elementary school, somebody goes up to you and they say oh. It's opposite day. That's truly what we're seeing right now. On a serious note, so I was reading, I forget where I saw the article, but they're saying the oil monsters coming back as far as the the price drop. What are you guys thinking? Is this balance that we have seen just in the last couple of weeks? Is that was the bottom in, or are we going to see some more lows? I think. It depends on. In this ties back to the point of the rules of geopolitical in an economic competition, being redefined more Cold War I. Thank was recalled to happen to oil beyond upbounce verses sort of sustained growth I think is going to depend on really two things number one the ongoing success of China's ability to produce more of their commodity boards in particular energy in their own currency a we learn to different credible sources earlier this year that Saudi had begun selling at least some oil to China in yuan, and so that would depend. Depend. I think that'd be very critical. In terms of determining the price of oil, right because you know the CFO of one of the biggest commodity traders in the world told me on a roadshow fifteen years ago back in a former licet commodity markets the marginal ton prices the whole, and so if the marginal ton of oil is being priced in you one, and suddenly you get begin to get more of an influence of the dollar cross rate on the price of dollar oil with every marginal barrel that moves to. To you WANNA go a lot of people in the me. Talk about oil. Hear other people talk about you want oil on this contract and similar. China's been trying to do. I think they've been under the assumption that was not going to matter until half the world oils, Yuan or a third of the world, but that's not the case because as a commodity market in the marginal. Tom Price is the whole, so I think when you look game, we think think about oil. is okay now. We have this ramped up. Up Great Power Competition you know we can probably safely assume that China who has been moving pretty rapidly more rapidly of last two three years in terms of getting more of their commodity import bill yuan as it is, you can only assume they're going to get more aggressive with that and that ties into the point of okay we'll. How do we get more people to do that? While you need to win? Friends and influence others, maybe a start forgiving things like that. Try to play the long game on that front. And on the other side, what I think matters, royalism, what is the dollar because of the one dollars cross rates start to be more important than the price of dollar oil than if you can get a weaker dollar likely seen on the margin, it's not weakened a ton, but we've seen marginally week over the last two or three weeks. It's a tailwind for oil. In that world now the flip side is if the US can clamp down on and the spread of the pricing of oil and yuan goes back to dollars and sort of build a very big dollar block around the world sort of go back to the Kissing Jerry and I guess if that's where the dollars oil. Is At at and that's all then then you back to a world I think we can see oil. Really go crazy on the upside, but I don't think it can for as long as China's still able to be. You know sort of playing this game where they can start shifting weather import bill into their own. I think you bring up a good point Luke and if I can add to that given the amount of US dollars that has been printed over the last couple of weeks, you might have expected that the dollar would have weakened. It's interesting. You say that given what they've done so far on the fact that we know this is the beginning not the end of this. You would have expected the parents to be weaker than it has been. Pointed exactly right. It's surprising to me that we haven't seen it. Come off material hotter. The Luke Chrome and Brent Johnson show rolls on twitter. This various end dances and bulls being spike lifted Ryan. It's always fun to watch, and it may just be that perhaps the euro. Still this question mark over the German Constitutional Court really hanging over it so people on one hundred percents show how that's GonNa go so the hedging their bets with that. Given what the Fed have done what they are committed to do, and it's not often. You get very carefully planted fed articles talking about how she is unlimited. There's a reason the we're seeing those quotes out there. That's to tell people exactly what's going on here and the flood of money. That's going to get thrown at this thing as and what is needed, I mean I think. They're gonNA white at all. I mean we've seen that. They've acted so fast this time round and what's happened ironically is going to embolden them right because they have this snapback bounce, which I don't think is purely down to fed liquidity this time. But when you're a guy with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Right and they've got a hammer. This looks great. They're gonNA. Look what happened when we through two trillion it, so maybe we have to throw three truly next time, but we'll get sixty percent bounce I mean it's craziness to me, but we have to sit and watch this him. and. What's crazy is when you provide that much liquidity, and it doesn't weaken the dollar at all. I mean it's almost like giving more meth to a meth addict that I. Mean That's where we're at. You're supplying all these dollars in the markets soaked him up instantaneously without any type of drop in the dollar so when they have to print again I mean it's you're doubling down your quadrupling down on what you did last time just to keep this patient alive. Is Insane. The what the I've watched on it to is on the flip side of if we want with the Treasury general account has done while offense been pumping money, and on one side treasuries been sucking it out with in the same staggering rate, really right where the biggest TGI balance we've ever seen exposed four hundred or four hundred twenty billion dollars, and it's sitting at one point four five trillion dollars now and so historically when Tj go the. And the dollar the dixie have been very closely correlated as the treasury liquidity out, so it's been surprised on really on both sides a that all this liquidity interest rate differential collapse, and the things that we're talking about ever resulted in a weaker dollar, and then on the flip side. I've been watching this Tgi, going up and up and up, and at some point that's going to reverse when it reverses. Presumably you'd be increasing the currency in circulation in the US like a sixty percent annual rate or something crazy right and I wonder if it isn't just being sterilized. Sterilized for the moment by Treasury and white treasuries, even doing Ademi. Is it the trump administration basically trying to hedge themselves against the Fed wear? They're saying I will maybe fell. Try to make the economy bad and get us out of office, so we're going to stock up this war chest of a trillion and a half that we can spend in the economy to turbo charge it in the last three months before the election which, but it's that Stella actioning. Is that the sterilization a really that that should be dollar weakness on the common? That goes the other way. The corollary to that is on the TJ goes up delegates of vice versa so I'm with you in I fully understand exactly what I'm seeing in the dollar markets. There's a great show I saw from Eric homeboy this week. And he had he plotted the Treasury net receipts also months against the Fed Balance Sheet and As, he said you're either for the first time ever. The amount printed by the Fed has exceeded the total tax receipts. The Treasury over the twelve month period took in three point two, six trillion, and they've printed three point three one. So that's it right, but if a guy's that cost of watch this stuff this is. What a time to be alive right? If you like charts, take one look and go what hold on a second. This doesn't make any sense I mean. I see fifteen now it's extraordinary and and I think what's amazing is so many of these things. Everyone's just saying okay. I just need to ignore this until we get something I can relate to again and I can take a look at the Rosenberg. Is All over this and he's put a fantastic stuff out. You know it was not fun dive on twitter. They should be and he's calling this stuff out. But when you look at these charts, Unemployment Charleston is saying that initial claims are continuing claims. I mean when you talk about off the charts they are literally off the charts and and people don't seem to be bothered by it because I just don't think they can get their head around it, so I don't know how this works itself out what it takes for people to think we'll. This isn't a this isn't going to go back to how it was I. Just don't understand how that even an option in people's minds. You know what I mean. It's clear that that's not going to happen. So this is what I'm really struggling with. Pull Robin Hood stuff aside because that's just that's just crazy and you look at what happened today. Unless tomorrow is even crazier, today is going to be one for the record books with some of the stuff that went on the Chesapeake today you know one hundred and seventy one percent followed through chapter eleven after hours I. Mean it's extraordinary. What's happening there on market is trading for what was said. On the dollar for their yeah, but this stuff is. It's all happening and it's. It's so confusing for everybody right now for almost more so for the people who spend all day. Look at this stuff because you just have no idea. Where is anymore? Everything that coming at you is completely misrepresentative everything you've learned over your time in the business. I had a guy asked me. So, what do you think about this v-shaped recovery in kind of snarky way and I said I think it's an I. shape recovery I think the bid. You're seeing a bid up. Spread here that gap so high up that it's GonNa hit a an exclamation point on the top of. Dot The I on this thing. The Idol Hi. It's an honor. Yeah this is crazy and you know it's funny. Because Luke you on our show back in I want to say march or something like that. And you said unflinchingly you said Oh. We're going to have a melt up right like this isn't. Even this isn't even really a question like we're going to see the market. Melt up and we had the cove it. It got slammed, but then it just took off all of our momentum indicators initially on our site where flashing Red Ripe, and this about and some of them turn green, and then all of them turn green and sure enough. You are exactly right I think you're starting to see a meld up here. Probably if I had one thing, sue me. That was really important, and really under followed thus far has been. What happened to the Treasury market from March ninth the march teeth during the selloff so February eight February. Nineteenth equities peak began selling off so between February, nineteenth and March ninth twelve trading days, toilet, twelve trading days and We've long been saying that the equity market so important the economy, and if it sells off too far too fast, you're gonNA see a problem in the treasury market, and that's researches sort of said, but it never really been tested and then on March night all of a sudden the treasury market started crashing right alongside the equity market, and it kept crashing. It fell. Almost tick. Tick for and I. Think this was a really big moment I, said it jokingly, but but I think it's true. Is I think the Fed thought it was all fun and games with risk off until the treasury market lost tonight. And as soon as the drink market and the Fed and their meds, they're meeting March fifteen. They actually said the treasury market. The treasury market ceased to function effectively. And that to me I. think is a really big sort of. Link to everything we've seen since because what we're really talking about. Here was the United States for the first time in our memory partisans, the seventies of the first time in in our careers are memories was seeing its sovereign bond market it. Sovereign Bonds Underpin the whole shooting match of course. They were traded like emerging market bonds with a fiscal problem where the economy shrank gang, the stock market selling. And the bonds yields are rising sharply folk, massive lowest granite, but they were rising and bid ask spreads in the deepest most liquid market in the world blew out guys at a trade of those vons forever saying they've never seen anything like it and that. I think is the real wild card. In terms of answering your question of how long can this go on? How long will this go on I? Think a lot about we've seen. The Fed do has been about basically bailing out the treasury market fixing the Treasury market when you read the histories of some of the great hyper inflation's, it's almost always a desire to basically make sovereign debt nominally money good no! No matter what and into my eyes, that's what the feds started having to do in March, and so they have kind of their head. because. Do you want to be the go pick up! The phone calls the Marines and says after the US. US government's presumably drafting up this. We are in a new great power competition document March. Do you want to call it? The Dod in the Pentagon, the Pentagon and go. Hey, guys, your funding costs just went up two hundred basis points because the treasury market stopped functioning because the world's melting down in the answers. That's not gonNA happen and then filters back into this view that I I really think we are in. Almost Venezuela's -ation of US markets where they have to keep yields at politically expedient levels in by virtue of our debt levels that means negative real rates as far as the eye can see if we want to engage in win, brainpower, competition and so. I think it can go on a lot longer than people think that's not to say. We can't have a pullback or that any anything like that, but it just said. I just think this great power, competition means the US government cannot afford positive real rates for a long long time and I think they have the means motive and opportunity to keep them at negative real rates for a long long time, which is ultimately intellectually offensively good environment for. Gold gold miners and stocks. It looked like a window. Into the real world. I looked at it and said. That's what happens when the Fed on not in there, too, because it kind of cooled him off guard right and it's like all right. We need to get on top of this quick and that to me was just confirmation that we're not going crazy, right? It's win. The diocese mechanism removed Marcus. Do function the way. Way We think they're going to function and economic reality does why on cell phones even the mighty US Treasury market so that to me was I agree I think it's incredibly important and I think they will be paying attention to that, and they will do everything they can to stop that happening because that window were it to open leads exactly what you said it would. Take a quick break and hear from today sponsor. Although. We're value-based investors at heart. It has long been known among investors around the world that systematic or quant strategies have become a highly successful way for professional investors to extract returns from the market. In fact, most of the top ten hedge funds in the world today like bridgewater associates and renaissance technologies discovered this decades ago and there's one podcast that covers this area and finance in great detail in its top. Top traders unplugged dot, com, and right now you can get a free book explaining how to systematically identify follow market trends as well as a comprehensive guide to one hundred of the best investment books of all time, just go to top traders unplugged dot com slash T I P to get your books today again. Just head over to top traders unplugged dot com slash T ip. You'll be glad you did. Yes. It was like the curtain just briefly opened up and you can see all these people just piling money into the system like there were shoveling coal into the steam engine of a train, and then closed again, and you're standing that thinking holy moly everything I thought, but didn't know Israel. That's right into my eyes. The Fed then confirmed that they were concerned about not only in the meeting minutes, but if you go to the mid April link put out sort of a quickly released, they might have even been on a Friday but the supplementary liquidity ratio metrics under either dodd-frank or Basel I always get confused even. Decade plus of banking regulations to make banks more safe, and to make liquidity in the banking ratios more Tang and they said look. We're going to temporarily suspend the S. L. Ours Treasuries. So that the banks can basically buy as many treasuries they want with effectively infinite leverage. It doesn't Ding the liquidity ratios when the banks by treasuries, and so you kind of look at this and okay great power competition that day unprompted treasuries and they're going. Use the banking system to help. Soak up this liquidity. Tomorrow is the quid pro quo is look I would love to be a bank and put you know, basically have no capital surcharge to buy a treasury and I clicked the coupon and away I go. That's it's not bad. You're making a positive spread right until yield her native and I don't think they'll ever be negative for us. Treasury bonds, but as long as yields are nominally positive. It's almost free money to the banks free nominal money. It's not free money on a real basis to these backs. Hey so what's going on the repo market because it looks like it's Ram backup now in the last couple of weeks. You remember back in two thousand seven there about eight paper in the will that knew what the tastes prayed was. Remember that right now. There's nine nine and it was like what's going on with. Nothing nothing to see here, and we saw those lips and the tests, but everyone I knew that was involved. That market was like this is serious, right? This doesn't happen. That shouldn't have happened. This can't happen and I think the same thing, right? We had this crazy period and the fury, which everybody in a position to was saying this is nothing to worry about is perfectly normal. That tells you how big a problem it is, and these things do. The Ted spread quietened down originally until it just went off the reservation and I. Think the same with the repo market, the stresses there was happened in the real world away from equity markets with seeing that erosion of trust again that we saw. In. The counterparties on shore? What's going on and they? They want to hold their cash and they. Only do business with people that convinced I can do business with and the only person who's GonNa. Be Out of step into. This is going to be the fake, and they will to what we've been saying all along in this conversation. They will buy anything print anything. Do anything whatever they have to do. Because I think looks right I think they realize now that the gun is to the head. And every single chicken that patch coming home to roost at the same time. And so if they don't step in now and do quote unquote whatever it takes this thing over in a hurry, and I guess to their credit in some way. I think they realized this and I think they understand how bad a situation in which tells me they will come up with all kinds of Christ look even talking about yield curve control, right which I mean. I'm sure has to happen at some point and. I think it's right I think later this year. You'll probably see that bay against dependent on recovery. I think it's dependent on their second wave and number two things that I granted that your point earlier on just what's happened in the real economy I thought was a really good one. which was you the seven eight crisis? It was sort of these esoteric security instruments that were we knew what was going on in housing, and we could put the non run housing right, which was originally sixty billion, then it was eighty billion, and then when they got really crazy, and made it one hundred, twenty, billion in losses or something right, which by the end of the crisis was adorable league. In terms of the number, because we didn't know what was sort of behind the scenes with all this stuff, whereas now when you talk about the counterparty risk, and what these banks have to be thinking, you see headlines go by were. Awesome today where a quarter of commercial landlords got paid in full in the last month and a half or two months right, so no that business where that's by nature that's a debt of business that runs tens of leverage right. They put down ten percent equity and so. If, you don't get paid ten percent a year. You break, even if you're not getting paid twenty percent, you're losing my, so there's just this great degree of uncertainty in the real economy. Right out in the open very easily easy to see and that just, and then we moved into a quarter end with rebuil-. Anyway, which has sort of been a hot. Point as sort of each quarter ran as banks or window-dressing or chewing up books. However, you want to phrase it. You know it's a really good point, just real world. You haven't had this ability. We'll look at the stock market and the stock market is supposed to reflect economic reality. What really you need to do right now is be out on. The street took in business owners to get a real sense for how bad this is. Because we come. They're all closed. He can't even go into the store and took. These guys say hey. Hey look you know what's one of the things like on the ground? We've got the PP that will roll off at some point I'm sure they're gonNA have to re up with that. Because the effect that's going to have on the unemployment numbers so that that real economy is totally being masked by the stock market performance and the disparity between the two so extreme. And dacoven thing basically got them there and I think the social unrest has gotten narrated were basically into. You know no long for a longtime in our careers. Central Bank policy was seen as a dial right. We can dial it out below. We can dial stocks to the moon. The world's This was sort of always going to be where it was going. I just think that the the greed. Severe this slowdown was basically probably pulled it forward. A couple years worth. This, going back a couple of years every couple of months you'd see an article talking about how fifty percent of Americans didn't have five hundred bucks for a surprise, auto bill or the fragility in the system, and how many people don't have any savings? How many companies have owned companies? There are in the SNP. It's in the hundreds which is crazy. We knew the. The system was fragile. We all knew that all the daters out. There has been swirling around for a couple of years. And now here we are right where all these fragile businesses have lost a quarter of their years revenue people have lost jobs. There was Deutsche Bank charter tonight at slot put up. Fifty percent of households have lost employment income in the US. And it doesn't matter which way you cut it understand the fragility of the balance sheet of Corporate America Household America and governmental America. If you understand the fragility and the numbers ruled there, then what's in the last three months doesn't get repaired by what repaid two thousand eight doesn't look so you just have to kind of sit here and deal with the madness and kind of maintain your focus on the end-game of this thing and look you know you do look what's out there in front is because what's funny is very very misleading and it's GonNa. Catch a lot of people I suspect. Given, the ridiculous amount of printing has happened this year. Gold is only up by eleven percent, and the S&P five hundred is trading gold, but only seven percent. Taking the circumstances into account wise gold, not taking off in this environment. The question with gold is always right, always why and then win the two questions that everybody wants to ask about gold. It's normally. Why is it not done X.? And when is it going to do what and if you look back a mid to late? February in the market cracked. You had this period the beginning where the stocks tumbling and goes I fully, and everyone's sitting there, saying the hill goes source, be going up lost my golden up performing, but there was a period there in the first couple of weeks You'll one ounce of gold thirty three percents more in terms of unit, so yes, pay in a ten day two week period so it. It did what it was supposed to do, and I think a lot of people get kind of hone smuggled by fixating on the price of gold and people talk about the price up and let you I would have expected the price to go higher, but when I look at it I. Look at all the other stuff that we've been talking about all the leaves Oh being pushed. Now there's four or five guys pushed on this lever to stop it spring in back. and. Go always just sits there, right? It doesn't doing it's just. At the center of the financial system, and all the chaos goes on around it, and it never really a case of gold rising. It's a case of things around sinking and right now the stuff around isn't sinking goes kinda sitting there and optically risk assets. A high everybody's got the bit between the teeth again and gold really hasn't done anything I. Mean I suspect what you'll see is when the obamacare resumes, which is my base carries. You will see gold optically star to look better. And you'll see people coming in to see a little bit in the mind is already. We've seen some people starting to buy the mining. She hasn't and it really gave them a cake. 'cause it's such a small market, but yeah, what normally wise and go gone up I. Don't know it's really not something. I spent an awful lot of time thinking about which I I suppose people but I. Don't know looking at the price ICAL. I'm looking at what Bazi relative to other as you said, it bothers me seven percent Morrison pay now than it did a few months ago and that's even with this major. The S&P Godown says it's where it was in nineteen ninety-four right so you could have had your money this whole time. And not miss out on any of the stuff, right? You could buy the shares today. The same product of Nineteen ninety-four had no stress, so none of us really not. It's kind of a mystery, but then it'll do what it does. It is time to me either look. At Bell. Surprise hasn't done better as well I i. think where this could go as I thought. The Dutch National Bank last fall accepted. Look at the system comes unhinged. We're GONNA need gold to rebuild the system and so to me. I think gold is sort of performing. Yeah, it's been a little disappointing relative to the chaos, but I think ultimately. Where gold really shine in this system really does break down and I think that's important, too. When you tie back to what we were talking about at the start of the show in terms of this great power competition, if there's really a new cold war between the US and China. I think there is I. Think you think there is as well then all of a sudden? It becomes a currency competition as well which is interesting right, so it looks at the US treasuries outstanding the market value. The US official gold divided by foreign held treasuries outstanding, so it's basically the amount by which the US is gold collateralized, all the foreign held treasures outstanding, and so, what's really interesting about that chart is prior to nineteen eighty nine when the Berlin Wall came down and. Broke up. The US foreign held treasuries outstanding were never less than twenty percent collateralized by the US goal at market value, and it was often forty percent has actually forty percent more often, so say twenty to forty percent nine hundred eighty. When there was a dollar crisis, it got as high as one hundred thirty three percent so basically. The US is official wall was more than one hundred percent collateralized thing, all foreign held treasuries outstanding, which is a true gold bubble, but the numbers five percent today so for me where I really expect to see gold performed is. I think one of two things, either it becomes crystal clear that we're going to get an asset hyperinflation that basically the answer is the Fed stopping is never going to bail out the eurodollar market and the balance sheets of forty trillion over the next three years. People are going to go okay, and I think golden perform really well in that scenario. I think the. The other way performs if we keep going down either. This great geopolitical competition because the reality is the US dollars way too strong to be able to really compete and the other scenario I think it does really well in as if they lose control standing. We get a chaotic collapse of the system. Then I think you see basically right office sovereign auburn debts. Or rubbing right down right often the only thing on central bank balance he step to collateralized offset those write downs goal, and that's where I think you could see a huge step up, but I think it's a much more systemic thing that we'd have to see or or get further along on the systemic thing, because I think what we just witnessed was his stomach, but I think they nipped in the bud. Fast enough is alternately. Would goal is telling us at this point? How you handicapped flu? Ozone, those three outcomes heady handicap. I think most likely as a combination of great power competition, and basically the asset hyperinflation. The US I think asset hyperinflation. The US is really my base case at this point and part of that is because the great power competition reinforces that because you didn't have a great power competition and have China finance the great power competition against China going to have to finance it. Doesn't have the balance sheet. Luke when you look at the price action that we've seen in the past week and a half. I think completely confirms what you're saying. I mean this market's moving out. There is nothing in front of it. At least the index is that we're tracking I mean they're just getting bid there not even shaken during the day. I mean this is a straight bid at the open straight to the clothes. For the last ten days, the market's been running, so if that trend continues which is seems like it is into the coming weeks, the FEDS GONNA. See what's happening. They're going to clearly understand that it's them. That's causing this I mean there's no way they couldn't. So then what's the tool that they have to slow it down after they pumped all that liquidity the system? How do the is there anything? I think some of what we're in the last ten days. You referred to I. Think is some capitulation ride and you seen legends like Druckenmiller. Saying Look I. I got my lunch right and he's not the only guy I think. A lot of people are really negative had to cover. There's some element and that that's driving that, but to your broader question of what are they going to be able to do that's. That's you can't shrink your balance sheet, right. I mean I guess you could shrink your balance sheet if you can get the banks to buy it so during World War Two and that's where I think we'll. Ultimately for a great power competition, where foreigners not by nearly enough treasuries, basically, the US domestic private sector and the Fed are going to have to finance everything. We want to do in this great power competition. In World War Two, the percentage of total US banking system assets that were in treasury exceeded fifty percent. Number spiked percent today so I. Think the first thing that's going to happen that the Fed does have some wiggle room. I think they're going to turn the US banking system into Treasury foie Gras. They are going to stick a hose down the throat, the banking system and they are just going to pump their belly fully treasuries, and it's not a terrible deal nominally for the banks like we said before there's basically no cost Kerry and Okaz, the capital against US treasuries, but the government cannot win the great power competition. Less real rates are negative, so they're gonna be losing money overtime. Overtime on a real basis, but making money nominally in the near term, so they have some wiggle room. The Fed could maneuver there, but ultimately they can't let rates rise, and if they implemented curve control. Then you have to pick your rates. You know your levels pretty carefully right? Because if you to level level, you'RE GONNA buy a lot more to hold those levels, whereas if you pick them high, then you can be lesser than you can buy less, but if you pick them too high, then it becomes hard to finance the Great. Power Competition Given Delo their painted into a corner. That's a really interesting idea that you're saying that. They're gonNA, pump the banks Fulla of treasuries in I. think that they would have because the other big challenge that they've got. They've got to keep the slope of the yield curve positive, because if it starts inverting these banks, I mean they go boom as soon as at thing converts on them, so if they're controlling the amount of treasuries that are sitting on their balance sheets, they then can also control the shape of that curve a whole lot better, but are they going to be able to soak up that liquidity in a manner by doing that? I'm trying to wrap my head around that idea. Person let me. Ask You a question because we're talking about okay. What do they do if this thing runs away, but we may be at the point now. Where why would they think like that? Why would they try and stop this thing running away? Because at the end of the day they realized now. If it stops going up and starts coming down there on the hook, right they're. They're going to have to spend an unlimited amount of we save said they're willing to do, I can't believe they wanna do it because they realized that they're going to need all these bullets at some point, so maybe this is like okay well. We've already shown that. We don't take the punch bowl away. Why don't we go and put a fifth of Jack Daniels into this thing? I mean. It's what possible reason do they have to try and stop this runaway do? What's fascinating when you look at the stock market in Venezuela Argentina and you look at it in nominal terms, it's fascinating the shape that it has at a very similar point where we're at here. In the US, it gets really violent. The moves in I would argue we've seen to violent move so far. The first one wasn't nearly as violent. The one that we just saw the my expectation. Moving forward is that we're going to continue to see these violent waves. They definitely don't go anywhere in real terms, but as far as a nominal terms. They kinda go up, but they're really violent, so. I guess my expectation is that we're GONNA see a new all time high, and then that's where the feds GonNa say oh. My God were putting too much in the system disease. This a little bit, and then you're going to get the cataclysmic whips ought to the downside only for them to add the next unprecended amount of liquidity into the system. It's a really great point. Press in because I think it was Chris Cole away recently. I think I read maybe where again it's I. Hesitate to use just the easiest example, and it was one of look at the Weimar Republic what happened to stocks in nominal terms, the average person and myself included have made this mistake. When I I look as easy trade, you borrow bunch of marks and you buy stocks, and you own Germany for free. And he said, but you have to really look these violent reversals that you talked about. The reality was the only way to get in point to point. B. and gain wealth was to be unloaded. Actually because if you were levered either way, those swings cleaned you out in between, so it's a really interesting point. Again I don't think the US is going to be clear, but I do think there. Are you know when you look at the fiscal side when you look at the wealth inequality, savvy social unrest side when you look at what happened with the Treasury Market March I think we're moving toward sort of Venezuela ization of the US market. So you say we're not Y MAR situation. I guess I. DO think we're in that situation and maybe to tinfoil hat here. Why do you think that we're not? The reason I think we're not. I think there are certainly some things that are very similar I mean maybe the biggest is that we have war reparations do that. Are Inflation adjusting an impossibly large percentage ADP in the form of our entitlements right I mean the US government can print dollars, but they can't print healthcare services, which is what they owe, the baby boomers, but there's two things I think in particular that are different than the first is of the political situation, which while his continued to get worse when you read the history books, it's not you know if we start having. Gun fights between ANTIFA and you know the southern boys, or whatever they are in major cities around the country and the COP, stand aside and be of local guys running beer hall, which and taking the basically La seceding from. That would be more parallel to what Germany was suffering at that time was not that bad yet and the other thing that is i. think critical. Is that the US? Still has the ability to produce virtually everything it needs at the right price, so for perfect example shale right as the dollar collapsed ninety percent against oil, going from twelve, two, hundred, twenty, one hundred fifty bucks over our. Our many years and what we got out of that was nigger, mental, eight or ten million barrels a day of oil, and there's a lot else that the US could do. Where ultimately that's what would stop the hyper inflation from being completely currency destroying leg of Mr my view. He's not saying couldn't get very inflationary but I. Just don't think it can destroy currency in the same manner. Interesting arguments grant. For me the outcome is uncertain, but what I'm just listening to two very smart, very knowledgeable guys discussing whether the US is Venezuela why Germany. But. That's the thing for me right because. You both sign it with a straight face, and and and and they're both. Outcomes! That's a really really important thing for people to understand. Ten fifteen years ago. We wouldn't have been having this conversation and be if you had a done. It wasn't a possible outcome. It was kind of some fantasy that you thinking about well. Let's just gain this out just for fun right, but when guys like you wrestled with outcomes, it tells you that we're in a place that is on a path. The potentially leads to one of those things, and how far down that path we are is to be decided, but with what's going on. You know when you talk about what was going on in in Germany back. During the Republic, we've seen flashes that in the last few days, we've seen social media posts from people outside the window in new. York I was talking to someone today that I'm looking at this thing, and it's like a scene from the Batman movie. The Dark Knight so it's just chaos in the streets of New York just off to Lowest Nece, and there were so many of those those kind of posts, and you look around anything. How did we get here so we can go from Things are Kinda screwed up right now to. How did we get here in a matter of three or four days? That's what people have to understand. Is that outcomes like that as well now comes? Republic. Crazy until you three days away from them. It's all fun and Games. Until you go to the storm, there's nothing there and that's where the Mall Ugo my money's not good for. Them pointed to. The weeks ago. She's talking about people's willingness to bear inflation. Now haven't been locked down. Everybody has a recent memory of going to the grocery store and. Buy What you want, so you go back in a few weeks in a loaf of bread, five bucks instead of to fifty people are probably going to go. Yeah, well, it's better than having no bread like we had a month ago, so yeah, Alpine five bucks for the bread, and it's that willingness to accept the higher prices that is the kind of tone in the K. to this thing, and if we get inflation, we haven't taught. Let Yeah, but if we get inflation on the stuff. I was GonNa say is anyone you pointed. To serious people talking with a straight face about these outcomes, another piece of evidence at that is we're talking about empty food shelter in America. Maroney grocery store my wife weeks on one level I understand this situation, but on another level once you understand that it was as Nicholas seem to lead talks about the system was not anti fragile. Wait we went from in the name of efficiency from having whatever thirty forty sixty processing plants around the country, if anyone plant has. Against Kobe shut it down. Now? We got like five plants that make the process all the property. Of any one of those go down. You're by definition going to have shortages in parts of the country, but it was just something. It was very very weird to be in America and go to the grocery store and see empty shells never seen it in my life. But there it was. So let's continue talking about some of those prices that we are seeing grocery stores. We see the price of for instance meek off dramatically and so many other products. What is driving those price terance right now? Do you guys expect that to accelerate? Boys I! Judge in the world man. please. Come. Until you're a vegetarian. I'm sorry, go ahead, Gresh. No, I was just gonNA. Say the inflation thing. It's all about expectations, right? It's all about people's expectations, and and expectations rise then that's really often all it takes, and we're seeing that people's expectations based on what's happened are increasing, and that's a very dangerous place to be I. Mean Baumbach is screaming deflation. and. The price action would suggest that even if we do if I'm going GONNA have to go through another deflationary shock of some sort before we get there. But People's willingness to pay higher costs and people's expectations and people's feelings. You have a more intense feeling of inflation when you lose your job, because suddenly, everything seems more expensive to you right because you don't have an income and it's just this mindset that people are in. Believing that prices are gonNA. Go Up! That's what it takes people to start. Go out and try and get in front of that and the data that we're seeing suggests that we're not quite there, but we're. We're approaching a tipping point where people do stop to worry about job and saw holding and the price of meat. Go Up! I'm going to fill the freezer. A new freezer because of its own as well it with me now we close to that again. It's like a lot of these things we come back to this conversation. We're close. We're close close to all these crazy outcomes and for forty years inflation bit crazy outcome, right? It's just another example of something that we have a generation of people who for whom is not an issue or problem, bore likely outcome, and so it's been just discounted on the shelf as something from the history books and we could go running stuff. Put out fantastic shot of inflationary surprises. So in one thousand, nine hundred fifteen. Inflation US CPI one percent. In one thousand, nine, hundred seventeen two years later is twenty percent. In nineteen forty five, it was one percent two years later. It was nineteen percent seventy two. It was three percent two years later. It was twelve percent. And so that's how quickly these things happen when they happen, and we've built up a hell of a lot of complacency, all component parts of this financial system that we upright it. Inflation is a big part of that in the complacency around inflation. Saying it's just not something you have to worry. About is just another dangerous thing to take for granted I think. I think that's right, and I think too. When you look at structural even away from food when we go back to work in this new great power competition boy, the globalization has been remarkably disinflationary or labor for stuff or consumer goods. And another way we can read that document that power competition document is globalisation's debt now. We're GONNA. Go back to relocalising. By definition is going to bring back inflation. It's going to be more expensive to make elsewhere because Luke seven of the ten biggest container port in the world in China and Even. If you start moving this stop elsewhere, it's going to take a lot of costs jammed very quickly to get it done, and so to me I. think that the amount of complacency around in a lot of people are paying attention to the US China, tensions, and De Globalization but I don't think to me. The bond market is extremely complacent about the real implications of what this is, which is, we're hearing the policy guys all saying. We are divorcing China much faster this. We're GONNA resort much faster in the market's gone. and. It sets up exactly what you just described grant where you go from one percent to twenty percent a couple years right and it's interesting because each of those times when that happened, fifteen to seventeen isn't wartime. Supply chain, you're building stuff up and then seventy two right end of a war and currency system these types of things they just they happen, and this is the end of thirty forty year period, fifty year period of globalization, and this sort of sequence of the US moving is supply chain from one nation to another mason or another mansion, each cheaper each time and. Where are we gonNA put this stuff? It sounds like some it's GonNa come back and more expensive areas. Let's take a quick break and hear from today. Sponsor things Gramley for supporting the masters. PODCAST Gramley is a communication tool that helps people improve the riding to be mistake, free, effective and clear we encourage everyone, even the best students and top professionals to use Gramley to do the best work and accomplish even more goals. Preston I A- both using gramley premium. The reason is simple. It looks off spelling, grammar plus advanced punctuation structure for Cobbler suggestions and much more we always emphasize the importance of using the tool for any communication that goes out of the house and everyone on the team is required to use Gramley. Once. It's installed. Gramley Malibu trax all your email correspondence, and you can also easily install it in word or any other software you might use. Go to Gremaldi DOT com slash invest us to get twenty percents off your gramley premium account today that's Gremlin dot com slash invest us for twenty percent off your grandma Ollie Prima count. When you look at how ray value talks about inserting liquidity when you're in these types of environments, and he talks about the use of quantitative easing where you're buying a bond, you're basically inserting it into the top of the economy, and then you have to balance that with liquidity insertions into the masses through universal. We call it universal basic income now, so my question is in. It's I think. Think. It's Kinda surprising that we've been exercising that insertion point of quantitative easing straight into the top of the economy for more than ten years straight without hesitation without implementing the other access point, which is to the masses through universal basic income, because politically, it's been really unpopular now all the sudden. The first payment has gone out and you know we were talking about this being a drug earlier. And I think politically after they do this. They see the feedback that they're receiving for. Hey, that was awesome. Give us another shot of that. My expectation, my impression moving forward is that we haven't even hit the tip of the iceberg with universal basic income, curious to hear your thoughts. I agree I get stressing the Rubicon right is releasing on to talk about. Hey, the Fed can land, but it can't spend and I understand what he's saying, but I think it's semantics. Say once you get to a UB I, because if the government spends and then grand to your point, defend is buying up the bonds in greater amount than the entire tax receipts. Sort of two sides of the same coin and agree that once you cross that Rubicon particularly in the social unrest environment. I am particularly in a setup. Where as we discussed before where monetary policy has gone from a dial two on off I think it's GonNa. Be Real hard to turn off. Will they say there's nothing low opponent temporary government program? And and one that gives money to people. Once you give people money tried taking away from right, particularly as Luke pointed out in an environment like this where people you come home and by the front door. You got your protest outface I'm home from work. Honey I'm going to put my black Moscow mind. Ninja suit I got pick up the banner. which are we taken out today? People are in that mood, and so they're getting checks from the government. They're also reading all kinds of skills. Skills about the fat cats, who a company, even richer and wealthy in them and twelve hundred bucks is great when it comes through the Doa, but you realize it doesn't really make the difference you need it to make, and so you want more, and there are plenty of things you can hang your hat on saying how we'll see go out. And starbucks took ten million pillows, loans, and Elise chipotle's. We're going to boycott. GonNa do this and? So once this thing begins this no way the guys who are going to write these checks and sign them. Don't understand this once this begins. As I say you're going to take this money away from people. I E because they're going to need it and be because if you try. They're going to get pissed and we're in election. And what? You don't want a Piss people so we've crossed the Rubicon. We've to over the Rubicon. We didn't even white through. We leapt to the other bank. We're running and I dread to think what this will turn into this experiment and you bi, because the hands are out and from what you said. Presley's absolutely right right. Wall Street has been bailed out. To An unconscionable gray and street deserves by that. There's no two ways about it right. But. It's tough to see how they bail out my straight and keep the system together whatever that means because the data file both out, or they choose politically expedient route, which is bailing out mine straight and let the system go to hell, which they can't do so binding just Wall Street is no longer option because the people are wise to that now so I just think that takes us full circle to where we started. This with is unlimited Amanda Printing. That's going to have to happen because now you've got to by everybody. You have a choice. And the thing when you consider how they've been able to cure for so long benefiting the haves and not do you be benefiting the have nots in order to do Qe the process Assembly Matz easier. You don't have to run by Congress for instance and not does that something s political cost as you be, I would be almost impossible to get through congress on the most circumstances, but because of covid nineteen and grunts part about being an election year now the stand that's four prudent fiscal policy have just changed so perhaps you all right whenever you say that nothing is more permanent than a temporary program. I think the beauty. of Qa was that it was? It was just all kind enough. To not, really understand it. Everybody that you trust from a political standpoint and the Poulsen Banenky. All these trustworthy guys, standing up and saying we're GONNA save you right? This is what we're GONNA do it's spicy variation on the theme of the old joke about what's the difference between a recession a depression? Recession is when you. His depressions when you lose yours and that's kind of where we're at now in that before we had this shop spike in a white and a lot of people's lives turned upside down. Now it's you know a third of the working population and so suddenly this problem is everybody's problem. And everybody is either toasted the CIA today. Fifty percent of households have lost employment income. So that's your fifty percents of everybody that everybody knows lost the job, which is why we saying the consumer spending numbers. Numbers fool of a cliff and people the savings going through the roof. So this is where we're at and so now you don't have an option to bail out the banks because pick a number of how many millions of people need that extra unemployment checks, so qe was great when they did at first because no one really understand what was going on now. People still don't understand it, but fail bilked because there's been enough ink spill to about how wall, street westbound out, not mainstream. They don't know what that means. They can grab onto that and it's a cold to rally behind to demand. To be might whole by the government and I. Don't see anyone out there. That's going to be able to sign a note of it. So how much longer until we see municipality start failing and needing bailouts along with everybody else. As it tomorrow yet. Watch. Illinois looking at tap defend already. They're spot neither in a tough spot before this unrest and now. It might be much more structural. There's probably a lot of conversations going on at a lot of very expensive houses in very nice cities in America on. Do we really want to be here? Where is this GonNa? Go if they ban the police, do I wanna live in a major metro area? You know I saw Bernard Kerik on twitter today and six hundred cops the he knows they're gonNA resigned. What are these cities? Start to look like the New York? We've all come to know what love analyzed thirty years is great I understanding it wasn't that Nice? A place in the seventies in terms of the crime levels and the finances etc, I think the Kobe thing was one thing, but now I think the social unrest and I think the change in perception of potential relative safety of American cities. Cities going forward now combined with the work from home shift where you make a case, commercial real estate has a structural problem you're seeing corporations will let you work from all, and you know, and and then Amazon, of course, which has been documented over and over what what Amazon's done to storefronts in. It's it's now even hitting the fifth avenue of the World Madison Avenue of the world. Let it. you know I I think there's a lot of cities in a lot of trouble, and that then comes down to the question of were about to see how different the US versus Europe with Greece right where are they gonNA put these cities through the ringer, going to default on top expansions and teachers pensions. After we bailed out Wall Street twelve fifteen years ago and maybe we will, but again there's going to be a political cost to that on the other side that I. Think will be further supportive of things like you. Be I in in larger amounts. What have you? We've seen the trial believe we've already seen that trauma. I forget who it was. It was a very prominent Republican politician coming which was now. A couple of weeks ago, until about how Hazel Municipality should be allowed to declare bankruptcy and immediately everybody kind of jumped all over. It became a big thing for a couple of days, and they it up pretty quick, but that felt like a trial balloon to me I. Mean You know we had during the Great Depression people forget all console went bust. Right the statement bust, so there is precedent for this stuff again. We're in a modern world where this stuff hasn't happened. And and it's. It's entertain, but. At this point, everything is on the table and anybody WHO's trying to structure portfolio trying to manage your portfolio, who isn't entertaining the most extreme outcomes in terms of how they're thinking about protecting themselves from possible Taylor risks is missing a trick because they should be listened to guys like you talking about these outcomes, because you have to have a plan for a while more outcome, you have to have a plan for municipalities declare bankruptcy. You have to have a plan for these things now because. Every single one of. Their high probability events opposed to being these one off one hundred. Yeah. Okay last question and grant. I'm going to get back to the SMIRK. All right, so you guys now I'm a Bitcoin Bull I think that it's going to have a major role playing forward. I get the impression that you guys are less bullish or somewhat skeptical of that so I'm kind of curious here your skepticism. I'm GONNA give you. My very succinct. Concept, because I asked about bitcoin. And I I. Don't try to avoid the onset, but my answer is always the same I'm bullish Bitcoin I. Think everybody should on some bitcon because it's a great. On an uncertain future, and it could potentially be a game changer for people, but my understanding of it, and the depth of minorities is so far below the people to immerse themselves in this thing, but I don't see how my opinion any constructive Houston, whatsoever because the people who understand bitcoin understand it way better than I do and the Gulf. In my experience when you don't immerse yourself, in Bitcoin, it's such a fast changing technology. It's such a fast changing world. That I think we'd have to make a commitment to be deep deep deep into blockchain, and really understand it, which means you have to give up a lot of time on? Things. All you have to find a lot of small. Really understand it and all questions about it and get the dummies guide, which is the Rue I've Jessica so. Yeah, my opinion is everyone. Should some but people asking me for my opinion bitcoin? People made a loss. You be one of the. I've taught my girls. A I said you know the hallmark of somebody who was very intelligent. Somebody who says I don't know, or won't you tell me what you think or those kind of things and I? Just I love that response. See Now Billy Connolly said. The deficit of an intelligent person is someone who can hear the William Tell overture and not think of the lone ranger. Awesome. Luke, let's hear me and. Echo a lot of grandsons. I own bitcoin a sort of a tail position for me. I've always looked at at the same boat Osama's. There's a lot of people understand it a lot better than I do that I would defer to I. Think of it in a very sort of simplistic way of it being almost as a a new drawers herb asset with no counterparty risk for the millennial group. If you will and it's, it's easier, it's it's. It's sort of a digital goal. My one hang up on. It is an relative to gold at least is. Ultimately is not on central bank balance sheets, and so in a world where central banks continue to exist I. Think Bitcoin will do really well, but I think gold will also do really well and I feel like I understan- gold better and that if central banks are GONNA have to basically run a sovereign debt global sovereign debt bobble outcome of that. Is that global sovereign? Sovereign debt is going to have to be written down significantly possibly up to one hundred percent, if it was certain nations in the twenties against the only other asset on central bank balance sheets able to do that, which is goal, and so I think Gold's GonNa really up for sovereign debt I think bitcoin will do well alongside. That has always been my thought on it. So I WANNA play a hypothetical here for you, because I think the speed at which something progresses in value could have a important impact on how things transpire here moving forward. And I'm of the opinion that in the coming six months to a year were about to see some aggressive price movement on Bitcoin, due to various things that have been happening with protocol so today. The price of Bitcoin is close to ten thousand and were recording this. June of two thousand twenty. Let's say the price of Bitcoin runs to aggressively runs to twenty thousand by Christmas or like January. Timeframe of twenty twenty one where it's literally doubled. And in the backdrop we have all of this chaos that we've just described. It seems like it's pretty much the very high probability of an outcome. Playing out does that. Situation that. Just becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, just because of the sheer fact that it starts to look like a gold chart in one thousand nine twenty Germany. Is supposed to mean for me what I wanted to see from. Bitcoin is how it performs in a crisis. We kind of nearly a look at that a couple of months ago. And it didn't do great. which is understandable, will risk assets. Go Off, so I definitely want to see what it does in a crisis, if it goes to twenty thousand with kind of seeing that before we saw that back in two, thousand, seventeen and the twenty seventeen, we saw that run up to nineteen thousand wary too so I think that will give people confidence again, but I think to get the juices flowing lot. We're seeing some of these robinhood stokes at the moment. It's going to have to do something really crazy right, which could conceivably do? It won't be more as Luke's at the tail position for me until I see. And Event and I say do people run to it or away from it? Because I know an event, people will run towards gold because they always have done. Yeah, you might get the initial selling. People will want to own gold. Do they want to own bitcoin or do they want to? Cash out that bitcoin because they don't show I, don't know the answer is a fascinating to watch. Luke. Could you talk more about the difference between become and the gold market, and also no some thoughts on the role of the BITCOIN exchanges? I do think bitcoin is still a pure market than gold and by that I mean there's your paper. Derivatives attached for me. I would get really excited. You know essentially me last year. Technically bitcoin was moving up, but I forget what some of the technicals was four, thousand or five thousand when it broke out, but it was interesting in April or May last year, one of the bitcoin futures exchanges shutdown, and it was interesting to watch on bitcoin react as soon as it happened, it took off and so for me following goal as long as I have in the way that I have. One of those bullish things for me for bitcoin would be to see that futures exchange shutdown, and have it be a true market again is. Is Union find tweet from it at the time in late seventeen. One of my big regrets to seventeen eighteen was not selling the bitcoin ahead, but not maybe even trying to sell some futures and margin card just crazy high, but then he won't. Employment is as those futures will be rolled out bitcoin community. This is a sign except it's an I was same. This is GonNa be a freaking disaster for Bitcoin. Because this is how they control walled as the financialisation the futures are when you have a cash settled futures market on a monetary asset like a goal or like a bitcoin what it does is it begins to shift price discovery from the physical supply-demand fundamentals to has the biggest balance-sheet right it's. It's almost like going to a casino and playing no limit poker with Warren Buffett. Right where you might have a royal flush, but you know he's got a hundred billion dollars. They'll take your house and everything else, and so you have to them as sort of what the futures markets as they develop around these monetary acid in monetary asset defined something with a very high stock to flow ratio right. It's basically something that isn't. It's a monetary assets money. It's not used for anything else. It's not a commodity saw. I would love to see the futures market. Go Away or be severely impaired for Bitcoin I think you'd see bitcoin take off again. When you say that I think a big component of that in the gold market is to physically saddle. There's expenses there's friction to do that easily. In bitcoin physically settled bitcoin markets where you can take possession of the coins literally at the snap of a finger, so all of that frictional administrative piece of providing physical delivery gone, and as long as you have some market that you can go to. That conducts that physical change. Maybe that makes that argument mute so I participated in a derivatives market with bitcoin where I can buy long dated call options like just recently purchased one for a December of twenty, twenty one and guess what in in order for the person the. The right the other side of that contract, they had to cough up one full Bitcoin, one hundred percent equity into escrow in order to write that contract and I guess I'm looking at it from the other perspective is now that the derivative markets particularly in Bitcoin are requiring one hundred percent upfront escrow of the underlying that bitcoins locked up. It can't be traded. It can't be sold anymore. I think that's really bullish for the market long-term that you're seeing this lockup of one hundred percent equity I. think it's a little crazy guys. I don't WanNa. Take any more of your time. This was amazing. I really really want to do this again. If you guys are poor. Anytime I go your other half so. Glad to the company. Thank. You both get our people. Hand off to your handles where they can learn more about you volley with. The at Luke, Groman on twitter and F F T T. Dash LLC. Dot Com for more information about research products. And I am at T T. H and the acronyms of things that may go home and the websites, the same t h dot com. Gentlemen thank you for your time. Guys So this time, this show will play question from the audience, and this question comes from Aj, you ego. high-priced instinct investing has simple rule of buying low and selling. Responsible allocators locked in buy back their own shares of companies when they think their stock prices low or undervalued. On the other hand, why don't companies issue new shares? When the market is hitting all time highs or they feel their stock is overvalued. Don't think companies should day trade their own stock. Wouldn't this be a good strategy for companies to buy back when share prices are low and reissue them at higher prices? Fantastic question and a very insightful Christian really shows that you truly thing as a capital elevator now one reason that comes to mind is the book outsiders, and you might remember that because of that here on the podcast we'll make sure to linked to that. In the show. Notes was episode one hundred eighty. It's a book that is both endorsed by war. War, buffet and Charlie monger and would really stands out in that book is that the best CEOS are also the best capsule caterers and they're doing exactly what you're saying. They're using their own stock as currency, and they have the deepest respectful evaluation, so they sell up whenever the saga serve expensive and the buyback when it's out of favorite in the market. So you might be thinking well if it's that simple. CEO's across America must be the best captured caters. But that is actually not the case. CEO's being great council a caters very often exception to the rule. Now it's not that they're not skilled, but whether often excel is a sales people or politicians why the became CEO's in the first place. Really few people in corporate. America rose to the top because they make better decisions when to issue and buyback stocks at the right time. And even if they did which unfortunately the don't, it's also very tricky to have a good timing. Even the best indicators US might think that stock is trading at a very high level and issue stock, or the might be one to buy back. She s when everything looks cheap. But if the Maga has vast of different opinion, it might in hindsight looked like the CEO does know the value of his or her own company while the real reason. Reason is that the market just acted very rational, and then a final reason why the timing is off is actually that this year might be acting rational and what I mean by that is that whenever a stock is trading an all time high very often this because the companies also spinning off a lot of cash, so even that what looks to be an attractive stock price issue she S. There's really no reason to dilute the stocks since. Enough cash to pursue your best projects. and. The extra cash skew generates from issue in stocks you own invest them in the second best projects, which by definition would give you a worse return. So Aj I don't have really anything else to add other than what stick had covered and I would tell you to go back. Listen to our episode when we cover the book outsiders I would tell you to read the book outsiders. This book is by William. Thorndike and it covers eight unconventional CEOS, and really with all eight of them are doing exactly what you're describing is. They're just incredible capital allocators. They're not only great at running the operational side of. Of the business, but they're also really good. At allocating all. They retained earnings an investing them into businesses. non-operational subsidiaries then give them a higher return as a company because they're able to employ that that this retained earnings in a manner that many many CEO's are not able to do so I would tell you to check out that book so Aj for asking such a great question. We're going to give you a one year subscription to RTP finance tool. Tool this helps you do the things that the folks in the book. The outsiders are that we're talking about here. which is allocating capital by finding undervalued companies using all those metrics to read through the financial statements, and we have all on our website in a very easy to understand way so that you can conduct intrinsic value calculations on the fly, quick, easy and simple for anybody else out there. If you WANNA get your question played on the. The show, good ask. The investors dot com, and just record it. If your question gets played on the show like Aj's, you'll get a free one year subscription to RTP tool. If people want to check out TI P finance, just go into google and type in TI, finance or go to our website, the investors podcast dot com, and just click on the finance tab, and you can find it all there so AJ. Thanks for asking such a great question. Or I guys Preston. I really hope you enjoyed this episode of the Masters. PODCAST we'll see each other again next week. Thank you for listening to thank. To access our show notes, causes or forums go to the investors PODCASTS DOT com. This show is for entertainment purposes only before making any decisions consultant professional. This show is copyrighted by the investors podcast network written permission must be granted before syndication.
Congressman Joe Wilson 4-12-20
"Good Morning America. This is catch mount table. Chunk has Matija Witnesses this morning's tongs Joe Wilson. He's currently serves as the system. Majority whip and sits on the OB- services aren't affairs committee and what a mess? There isn't a world that Good Morning. Congressman. How're you Joe John? It's an honor to be with you and I wanna wish your many listeners. A very happy healthy eater and I This in I also express the great sympathy of the people of South Carolina New York region. We all have family in the New York region and so I thought some prayer so with people who are currently ill and also for personal superblocks love West and It's really special city. The New York region including New Jersey and Connecticut very important to the people of South Carolina particularly those of us in South Carolina. So many of my constituents are transplants. And so we Our thoughts prayers congressman. I know we already epic sector of the problem and and This Sunday morning. We all pray for all of France. We pray full. Whoa people will Americans. You're running off services committee. You're on it a majority whip tell us the world besides the virus this go around the world. Iran has Iran has shot some missiles at our soldiers in Afghanistan China. Nobody's saying anything because I think the president is trying to be as is you can't control or antibiotics but there's gotta be somebody who say scratched ahead at say. How guilty to Chinese congressman your floor. Well first of all I wanNA thank you John. I had made history your interview with Dhaka instantly. See who we all appreciate on January. Twenty six is is so critical because in that interview John Doctor. Faustus indicated a direct quote. It's very very low. Risk to the United States. This was an interview with you. This is an historic interview because it actually clarifies that all of the fake news From New York Times from Cnn from the Washington Post. It's all untrue that interview clarifies that indeed the American people had Were being misled as you Actually correctly identified by the World Health Organization and the People's Republic of China particularly the Communist Party C. C. P. of China They had Concealed this information but your interview clarified that indeed. Republicans and Democrats should be working together and not be subject to fake news and Talk Radio John y'all performed such a wonderful service supervised the truth in the midst of chaos and misinformation and propaganda. And so I'm so grateful for your service showing Hannity Rush Limbaugh Mark Levin Also local radio talk shows at home and then Fox News and so thank you because John Your interview of January Twenty. Six twenty twenty will go down in history as very important so that we could actually discuss the issues before us and put aside all the propaganda and political backstabbing Mister Curry. Oh Tech could congressman now. A president trump was the first one to start monitoring Chinese coming into America. He set up people. Picking Sap is Cisco Los Angeles and a JFK AIRPORT. And if if he was criticized for that he was called all kinds of names by the Washington. Post by The New York Times. And if he didn't do that I would say ten times amount of people that are sick today or dying today would have died. What say you on your John? You're absolutely correct. The president on January thirty first key announced they bar to persons travelling from China. That was a very. That's another historic event. The president acted firmly. It never occurred before. It's not like we bar people from A country where we have seven thousand visitors a day coming from that country and so the president was very courageous and indeed. The are far left accused him of being Ben. Bobick of being racist John even that was disingenuous Chinese or not erase their nationality. And and it's the people have oriental race and so the level of hateful is To me I call it trump derangement syndrome. There are people and we saw that with the killing of Sola money that the Enemy of President Trump Then defended their weight. Needs now tragically. The trump derangement syndrome has Carried on to where now almost defending the virus in over and over again people need to remain calm and focused in and stop this partisan attacks and and that's why I talk radio and John Your program makes such a difference Pacu. I'm not gonNA blame me. Asian people are not going to bring the Chinese. I think it's whether it's ten thousand twenty thousand one hundred thousand communist party Chinese that's causing. Whoa this at making the Chinese people suffer at baking the rest of the world suffer for what they do John. You're dead corrected. In fact we don't know how many millions of Chinese people citizens have been Affected because the Communist Party it's authoritarian state. They don't allow free information We know that they arrested and incarcerated the first physician who bravely pointed out that this was going on and So it's a real touch. It is that the Communist Party to maintain their total control of the Wonderful people have China I I've been there. My Dad served in World War. Two joining with applying tigers and. He always told me how much she loved the people. I've seen on chunk to in Kunming. The president acted firmly positively to protect the people of China and protect the people of America. I agree with you. One hundred percent Congressman there's so many things going on all over the world. Is there a particular area you want to talk about and to bring an this Easter Sunday print revelations to the American people of something. Maybe they don't know well I do. And that is that This time as we are wishing our dear friends Happy Passover Happy Easter indeed. The people of Iran are suffering due to the dictatorship. They have there. But the dictatorship there is making every effort to further their efforts to promote if they're a death to Israel death to America and they're proceeding by providing rockets to the to the Iranian militias of a rock to attack our forces in Iraq would also Iranian Financed initiatives are underway in Afghanistan to attack our military forces there and we know that they're providing additional missiles to Home Office that Gaza and Hezbollah in Lebanon so Iran is trying to divert attention from the incompetence of their Totalitarian State and I'm so hopeful for the people of Iran that they will see through this and as the government of Iran in. Tehran is concealing level of death We can actually by satellite say that trenches being dug for the Providing of burial of persons who have been killed by the krona virus in Iran without the people of Iran being told of how serious this is and how incompetent they're totalitarian government is are trying to push us into a war well. The good news is that The president made it very clear. It's called peace through strength by rebuilding our military As the president's correctly said We were not We had not been prepared but we are now and I. The president was very firm last week and and very clear that didn't require any interpretation. He told Iran they must not take any action against the American personnel or against our allies. Iraq or there will be a extraordinarily response. And we've seen that that did cause them to stand down and so I'm really proud of president. Trump's the theory of all of this is what Ronald Reagan established and. That's peace through strength now. The last sixty days the world has been turned topsy. Turvy one virus. A to financial buckets and three the argument between a Putin and Saudis and taking the oil markets and turning topsy turvy to the extent where they can put out the bankrupt. Seven your parking companies in the oil business what say you about this indeed I'm really hopeful that good can come out of this to John and that Russia itself has been described as a nation as a service station Masquerading as a nation They are so dependent on oil exports to provide for the modernization of There are forces threatening the American people. And so I'm really hopeful that as a President Putin has dispute with The king and Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. That this will have a negative effect on Russia. But you're right and also has an effect on America and I'm grateful that the president has recognized this in with the Efforts TO MAINTAIN JOBS IN AMERICA OF THE PRESENT Will be a stepping in and Either by way of Taras or purchases on strategic for the Strategic Petroleum Reserve again. We can use this To the benefit of the American people and hopefully to the people of Russia that they too could have the opportunity of having a free and open. Society Congressman. Joe Wilson Pacu so much happy Easter. And thank you for for what you do for the American people and for all America at will catch up again real soon. Thank you under the Syrup and Happy Happy Easter. To all tack this is the CAC spout table. We'll be right back.
The Tom Dupree Show with Congressman Andy Barr 9-26-20 HOUR 1
"Has a paid program on 630 wlap is Tom Jeffries show on used radio 630 wlap and wlap. Welcome to the I guess you all know why my name is Tommy Chong. If you want to you've got to play them all and pulling your ear plugs put on your a shade, you know, what need to put the clock back. You understand me. Now. Sometimes I'll feel a little man, but don't you know that no one off when things go wrong? Welcome to the Tom Dupree show joining us this week as US Representative for Kentucky's can dress 6th congressional district to mouth bulletin of Andy home and and Page them. So since 2013 and now we're going to toss it over to our host Tom Dupree Banks Elizabeth. Let's start with the the psalm that I like to read. This one is Psalm 91, whoever dwells in the shelter of the most high will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the Lord. Here's my refuge and my Fortress my God in whom I trust surely he will save you from the Fowler's snare and the deadly pestilence he will cover you with his feathers and unpack his wings. You will find Refuge. His faithfulness will be your shield and Rampart. You will not fear the terror of night nor the arrow that flies by day nor the pestilence. Stocks in the darkness or the plague that destroys at midday thousand may fall at your side ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you you will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked. If you say the Lord is my refuge and you make the most high your dwelling no harm will overtake, you know, disaster will come near your tent where he will command his angels concerning a guard you in all your ways. They will lift you up in their hands so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. You will tread on the line the Cobra and you will trample on the Great Line in the serpentine because he loves me says the Lord I will rescue him. I will protect him for he acknowledges my name he will call on me and I will answer him. I will be with him in trouble. I will deliver him and honor him with long life will I satisfy and show him my salvation that is Psalm 91 new international version and a bar. You're doing a good job, brother. I think about you all the time pray for you. And thank you Tom. You're just out there and and getting it done and you got things you want to talk about in this show. So I'm just going to let you set the course and talk about what you want to talk about. I'm not going to jump in too much. Well, thanks so so much Tom and Elizabeth great to be with you all just got back from Washington. We were in DC this week and I think the most important important development this week was dead House Republicans on the steps of the US Capitol Building earlier this week. We we issued a commitment to America that if the American people give us the majority of jobs and if we are given the opportunity to lead again in the US House of Representatives, we are committed to the American people we're going to restore our way of life. We're going to rebuild the greatest wage economy. This country has seen and we are going to remove the American dream and this is in stark contrast to What speaker Nancy Pelosi and the Democrat majority of giving us these last two years and agenda of the funding dismantling and destroying they support their funding our police are border patrol and our military they want to dismantle Our country they've voted to impeach the president and undo an election. They support dismantling our institutions by packing the Supreme Court and abolishing the filibuster and they support North Koreans in new taxes on families and local businesses, which would destroy our economy and feed further ground to China. Our commitment to America is the exact opposite of what I have been doing in the majority over the last two years. We we are committed to defeating the virus and keeping America healthy. We are supporting this President and operation warp-speed to Triple rapid Covetous thing and developing a vaccine that is safe effective and available this year. We are investing and Therapeutics and cures. We are working and we worked to to propose bipartisan legislation to slash drug prices bipartisan legislation. By the way, that speaker Pelosi refused to bring to the floor. We also are committed to ensuring the Safety and Security of our communities. We are opposing all efforts to define the police and increase funding. In fact, not just not just Tom not just opposing efforts to defund the police dangerous radical call to defund the police, but we believe in actually increasing funding by 1.75 billion dollars for better police training for community policing and Equipment including five hundred thousand more body cameras for local law enforcement all across this country so that we have we have not only safety in our communities, but we have better policing we're dead. We will continue to rebuild our military support our troops secure our border and enforce our immigration laws and we are committed to preserving our freedoms under the Constitution protecting religious liberty defending The Unborn and safeguarding the Second Amendment and with respect to rebuilding the greatest economy. You want to get America working again. We've already brought back half of the jobs that were lost as a result of the shutdown the lockdowns of our economy back in March and April, but we want to do more we want to add ten million new good-paying jobs and we can do it by supporting local businesses through two hundred billion dollars in already appropriated funds through the paycheck Protection Program. We want to make the tax cuts permanent that means extending the $2,000 child tax credit and making permanent opportunity zones that are generating ten billion dollars each year in poor communities. We're going to continue these proven programs tax policies that in Chrome. Take-home pay and encourage Innovation. We also are committed to ending our dependence on China and enhancing our Economic Security. I am honored to be serving and appointed to the China task force and we're going to be issuing a major set of recommendations on October 1st, including recommendations that I proposed in the competitiveness subgroup and in the economic and energy sub-group to prepare the United States for the coming strategic competition with with the, the Chinese Communist party that this is a task force that is not only responding to the origins of the covid-19 pandemic including the role of the Chinese Communist Party of the World Health Organization that facilitates just spread of this disease, but also just preparing for the competition the military diplomatic and economic competition with the People's Republic of China and the coming decades and so dead. We are going to implement the task force recommendations to move our supply chain for medicine protective medical equipment and Technology out of China to increase us manufacturing and to reach mortgage free and fair trade deals and counter Chinese economic predatory practices unfair Trade Practices theft of intellectual property force transfer of Technology. It's attempt to dominate college education through Huawei and 5G artificial intelligence semiconductors. We want to counter Chinese academic Espionage us universities and I have a specific building do that to work with the FBI so that the FBI can get in and help our universities identify spies that are stealing our research and in fact targeting our covid-19 vaccine research. We want to upgrade and modernize America's infrastructure. We we've got proposals to bring high-speed internet to every household in the United States and launched a multi-year plan to Pig. Roads Bridges and airports and cut permitting processes and half and then to renew the American dream. We want to make sure every child in every neighborhood regardless of their zip code in age and and excellent School in this time of covid-19. Demand jobs out there that will make America more competitive against China and other adversaries by making sure that kids know that they can make over $100,000 a year wage in good jobs that make America competitive like in welding like in the construction trades like in cyber security and nursing and Allied Health profession and data security wage. These are in demand jobs that don't necessarily require, you know, $100,000 in student loan debt. It don't they don't require a four-year bachelor's or bust approach em. So we're going to we're going to reorient our education system and then we're going to continue to honor our veterans Service to America. I'm very proud to serve on the Veterans Affairs committee. And I I think we're poised to pass a bipartisan bicameral off to address the tragedy veteran suicide in the next month and we're going to fully fund the V8 Choice healthcare program that allows veterans to choose their own doctor and we're going to expand them. I bill an education benefits. So every veteran who wants a job can find one and I'm proud that my bill to provide a stem scholarship for science technology engineering and math for our veterans office is now lost. And the last thing is we're going to support our citizens success now in the future, you know, it's not just Career and Technical education. It's it's Workforce Development that gives people an opportunity for lifelong learning. We think that Americans can earn a promotion or pursue a meaningful career even in this current difficult economic situation. And so we want to we want to promote lifelong learning. This is the Republican commitment to America and this is what we spent a good bit of this week talking about if the American people gives us the opportunity to govern we will no longer be lurching towards Socialism or the green New Deal or an anti-worker agenda that is built on government. Dependency. We are going to be dead. Promoting an agenda that is pro-worker pro-family pro-freedom that will promote the Dignity of work self-sufficiency and upward Mobility. And he talked a little bit about the China task force that you've been on and get into did you I know you covered some of it but once you tell us a little more on it. Sure, I did. This is the most consequential work and I say that unambiguously. This is the most consequential important work that I've been a part of in my eight years in Congress. And the reason why I say that is because it took us on everything it touches on the the pandemic we need to hold China accountable for the origins and their cover-up and their lives and deception and misinformation campaign that led to the spread of this pandemic it touches on our economy because we need to stop China and the Chinese Communists from stealing our intellectual property and our technology from a ripping us off with bad and unfair trade deals for subsidizing state-owned Enterprises to the detriment of American manufacturers forcing us into bad joint Partnerships in order to access the Chinese market and other Asian markets. So and then it's obviously about China's a military buildup and their Ambitions of To become the world's Global superpower both in in military terms and economic terms and diplomatic terms. So in everything that China is doing right now it is to pack their Socialist Communist world view their ideology. They're techno autocratic society and their rules that are violation of humor. Norms. They're doing everything to promote their Global worldview in in in what they're doing militarily diplomatically and economically and we need to prepare the United States for a multi-decade generational struggle and competition with the People's Republic of China are our our issue is not with the Chinese people. We believe that the Chinese people are victims of a brutal, uh, totalitarian technological Talent totalitarian regime in Beijing GM ping and his wage, Chinese Communist Party oppress their own people and so our issue in our competition is with the CCP and we believe that there needs to be a whole series of policy changes in Washington to prepare our country for the coming struggle in the coming Challenge and you know, we start obviously with the pandemic because Monday we we we investigated and we've had you know, we've worked with the intelligence community on this we will be reporting on the origins of covid-19 in Wuhan and we want to we wash the vehicle and exposed the role of the Chinese Communist party and the World Health Organization which collaborated with the CCP to to lie and cover-up about the about the pandemic we know from our investigation that that the top leaders in the CCP including General Secretary Jinping new a pandemic was on going from as early as mid-november to Thursday. The 19 before it was disclosed to the rest of the world at the CCP could have reduced the number of cases in China. And if they had actually been forthcoming and lived up to international law disclosed the outbreak we could have reduced the spread by 95% but it violated international law it covered up. It's censored whistleblowers wage. You know, what the story of dr. Weil in Lang live. We live in Lynn Lang who who was actually he actually died of covet But he sounded the alarm he was arrested a dead horse to recant and then the CCP deliberately lied. They they concealed human-to-human transmission. They they denied human-to-human transmission up to an including the middle of January and then they weaponized worst of all, they weaponized the global supply chain of medical supplies and critical Pharmaceuticals and wage. You know in the in you know, just to put a point on that there is an open-source reporting that a top CCP official said that as as as China was vacuuming of hoarding all of the personal protective equipment in Pharmaceuticals, they they were their top officials were saying that they were going to throw Americans into a sea of coronavirus and this is the latest in the the line activities of the CCP, but we're going to focus on more than just the pandemic. We're also we also have a a focus on China's military build-up and they're aggressive actions in the South China Sea. They're built up out there blue water Navy, which is very alarming. They're incredible investment in the people's Liberation Army and not they're they're built up up their nuclear Arsenal. We want to counter that we want to deter that we want to reorient our our national security posture to the Pacific and deter and work with allies like South Korea, Japan Australia and New and New Zealand and India who who is the target of Chinese aggression. We we met with yesterday with the Ambassador from Australia and New Zealand that they want our help Pages visited in invested with the Japanese leadership in Tokyo back in February. They want our help. They need a multilateral a lion stew counter Chinese aggression. They have they have Ambitions in space as well that they want to beat us to the not only back to the moon but to Mars and we and there's National Security implications with that the cyber cyber warfare. China is embarking on a massive effort to steal our intellectual property or technology through cyber theft and veritas. Yes, every day. Our major financial institutions are our major of Fortune five hundred companies and government agencies and they're constantly attacking us in cyberspace technology right now. We are losing the battle for 5G and Huawei and ZTE and some of China's top telecom companies have major influence in the third world and that has a significant implications for intelligence gathering and that is a real and present danger and threat to the United States. We need to work with our allies are Partners, especially in Europe who have telecommunications capabilities to counter Huawei and give lesser-developed countries Alternatives in 5G, the sub pillar of the subgroup that I'm co-chairing is the economic energy subcommittee. We are over dependent on China for critical minerals and two hundred pounds of critical minerals go into the B-2 bomber and the fa fa dead. F-35 we need to produce our own critical minerals. We need to we need to reduce our dependence on China for National Security. And so I've got a big job that would streamline permitting for mining of critical minerals Rare Earth elements that go into our national security Weapons Systems right here in the United States and we are able to do that. We just have too much bureaucracy that gets in the way and and jeopardizes our national security on we also want to create an economic intelligence discipline under the office Director of National Intelligence. We want that Fusion Center to provide that economic intelligence too critical agencies the state department the wage limit Finance Corporation the export-import bank and the usaid so that we can counter the one belt one road initiative the belt and Road initiative that the Chinese Communist party is using How to get trapped diplomacy to get influence in the third world in sub-Saharan Africa and South America and South Asia in places like Pakistan and Afghanistan. We need to counter offer a Chinese malign influence in all kinds of and all parts of the world. And the way we do that is reorienting these these agencies to do that and there's there's other things that we're doing as well and I can go into that, uh after the break if you want that is perfect Sandy, you're listening to the Tom Dupree show off with congressman and the bar. This is our bottom of the hour break. We will be back in just a few minutes stay tuned Tom Dupree Power by Dupree Financial Group. Let Me Be Misunderstood happening over there peace in the Middle East happening right here to find the police and a microwave you must vote no matter where it happens your world happened showed exactly what is average yearly wage and learn Newsradio 630 wlap we live in uncertain times is not uncommon for investors to be fearful about the equity markets and what they may or may not do at Dupree Financial Group. We are here to act as a sounding board for our clients and Prospects as they seek to develop understanding of how to proceed with their Investments since we are in a charted Waters. Our efforts are to educate guide and Empower our clients despite the unique nature of today's investment climate. There are parallels with past markets that can be drawn off. We can share some of these ideas with you for a free analysis of your retirement investment accounts called to pre-financial group at 859-233-0400. And be sure to listen Tom Dupree show Saturdays from 7 to 9 a.m. At Newsradio 630 wlap. That's debris Financial Group at 859-233-0400 home I Heart Radio is the number one choice for music radio and podcasts all in one no one makes it easier to hear everything you love in one free app. I'm checking out 24/7 Comedy at least once a day off You Gotta Laugh, right? They always got the right music. You can find everything you're looking for. I've got my stations with me in my pocket. It's a Melting Pot of good music right there together in one place. If you're not one of the tens of millions who have a download iHeartRadio for free today and start listening. I hungry. IHeartRadio new True Crime podcast paper ghosts investigates a decades-long search for for young girls who vanished from their neighboring New England Home towns and off the face of the Earth. You tried to say anything to them about her. They didn't like us recently uncovered evidence to change everything immediately just sat on the floor. Like if somebody just punched me in the gut listen and follow paper ghosts on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you listen to podcasts. It was a time of optimism businesses were growing and the American dream was alive but a help in economic crisis lay in wait, threatening our security and prosperity businesses struggle to survive and support their employees. The wait was on their shoulders wage disparity was built four times like this. We've provided confidence amid, the chaos restoring the indomitable Spirit of the American entrepreneur together Rising above Insperity wage. Yard, that makes a difference. For a bit of patchy fog out there early on this morning. We're going to be seeing a mix of sun and clouds out there throughout the afternoon hours much like we saw yesterday that will really control behind today. If you see more Sunshine off I still could get into the lower 80s more cloud cover. You're stuck more into the mid-to-upper 70s either way a beautiful day with dry conditions and a little bit of light wind out there as well. I'm don't even early times when there's still broadcasting live 24/7 from the heart. So Big Blue Nation, this is Newsradio 630 wlap on iHeartRadio station officer. Here for Quantrell Subaru and the new 2020 Subaru Outback the most adventurous most reliable and safest Outback ever plus the Subaru Outback is recognized by Auto Trader as the best car for dog lovers and with standard symmetrical drive on all models. That's just one more reason to love the new 2020 Subaru Outback drive one on your next adventure club. Wild Subaru Quantrell for Life visit Quantrell and go where Love Takes you when you're stressed. You just don't feel like yourself new nature all relaxed Iya off line of drug free supplements to help you manage occasional Stress and Anxiety a special blend of herbals keeps you feeling, and balanced throughout the day because when there's less stressed, there's more you could try new nature trail relaxed Iya, learn more relaxed your mood, These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose treat cure or prevent any disease potentially SSI and other Federal benefit recipients. If you did not file a tax return last year and have children under Seventeen you must act now to get the $500 economic back payment per child this year. You must provide the IRS your child's information by September 30th go to irs.gov and use the non-filer tool by September 30th. That's irs.gov this message produced at US taxpayer expense. Hi, this is Tom Dupree with Dupree Financial Group. Many people have 401k and 403b plans for their retirement investment accounts in certain cases are firm can help participants in these plans manage their Investments. This can be helpful because those retirement plans often offer numerous different mutual funds as investment options. And unless the participant is an investment expert. It can be quite confusing. In this case. We put our investment expertise to work for you the participant for a free analysis of your retirement investment accounts call Dupree Financial Group at 859-233-0400. Also. Be sure to listen to the Tom du preez show Saturdays from 7 to 9 a.m. At Newsradio 630 wlap or wlap, That's Dupree Financial. At 859-233-0400 630 wlap. Song Welcome Back to the time to finish up for the second half the hour with congressman and the bar on the phone. This is coming to you from the debris Financial Group Studios on Main Street in now over to you Tom. So a day you wanted to finish up a little more about some of the stuff with the China task force. Yeah real quick in the economics of energy pillar. We we really believe that we can push back on China's unfair Trade Practices. They've been ripping us off for years and forcing many companies to ship jobs to China that's happened right in my own district and we are fighting that tooth and nail in this task force. We want to give the administration to power to fight back against not only Chinese China's illegal subsidies of their own domestic Industries. They're mercantilist posture against the United States the rest of the world, but we want to equip the administration to fight back so that we bring back us manufacturing and US jobs. We also think the way to put pressure on China is to offer support free trade agreements with China's adversaries and allies in the in the indo-pacific region. So if we do bilateral trade agreements with Australia and with New Zealand if we do a job Bilateral trade agreement with India for example and and really punctuated by doing a free trade agreement with Taiwan a we can really encircle China from a trade point of view of China is clearly a behemoth when it comes to the global Marketplace, but we think through a bilateral and multilateral approach we can encircle China and and took a great pressure on China to actually reform itself and and and and and hold them accountable for what it's done to American jobs and American workers wage. And this is this is really important. The other thing we're doing is we're looking at a capital flow. So, you know Chinese Industries and competitor companies. They have an advantage because they have unlimited access to a Chinese subsidies. And so they can undercut Us in the global Marketplace. But what we think we ought to do is to to counter that is to cut off. Capital flows from the West to China. So what what we see so often is that Chinese companies access US capital markets on us exchanges with impurity and with a firm Level Playing Field that hurts investors in it deprives investors the protections that they normally get under the Securities laws of the United States. So we think that took a Chinese company a list on u.s. Stock Exchange, but does not subject its Auditors to the public Company accounting oversight board, which is what every American auditor and Company is required to do that. They should be delisted that they cannot miss on US Stock Exchange. I want mandatory disclosures. I want the SEC to require any company any public company listing on a exchange to mandatorily disclose ties to the Communists the Chinese Communist party and whether or not any CCP officials are serving as directors or officers on their birth. Ferdinand in their in their c-suite so investors deserve that information and we need to cut off access to US capital markets. We think that is a good way of pushing back and finally we've got to get at this academic Espionage. We know that we benefit from foreign talent coming into the United States it helps you as competitiveness if we don't want to cut that off, but we also know that there is a whole lot of academic Espionage from Chinese Nationals and others coming into our research institutions and universities. There's Confucius institutes and and there's the Thousand talents program aware of the Chinese government is recruiting us academics and researchers to actually assist in their military civil fusion and bringing back not only trying to spy and get our intellectual property on covet the search but but artificial intelligence and dual-use Technologies and trying to use federally funded research dollars dead. To steal that and go back and and help the people's Liberation Army in the Chinese military. We've got to stop that. And so this whole thing is a very comprehensive effort. We're going to totally reorient our pastas China. You're going to hold them accountable for This Global pandemic. We are going to prepare the United States for the coming competition and stop China and its tracks in terms of its Ambitions to become the world's Global superpower. It's it's what they call their hundred-year marathon and it's time to stop it. So let me ask you this. You know, we got an election coming up. How do you think the Republicans chances look in the house and the Senate and for the presidency? Well, I think that the chances are much better than what the media would would tell you. I think the American people are alarmed at the the Lurch towards socialism within the Democratic party to the National Democratic party is not a party of Democrats that I represent in the 6th congressional district of Kentucky the vast majority of Democrats that I represent in the congressional district of Kentucky, and I'm I'm blessed to enjoy the the support of many Democrats in my district because they don't share the same radical extreme values that Nancy Pelosi and off Alexandria ocasio-cortez or Bernie Sanders that they have and you know, unfortunately my opponent would enable that radical agenda he can talk like he's from Kentucky all he wants to support these radical positions of repealing middle-class tax cuts and supporting the green New Deal. He's he's he's just enabling the Socialist agenda. So I think I think we have an excellent chance wage. Um to to to take back the house because I think the American people are are frightened by the defund police movement. I think they're frightened by this off position of the the national Democratic party to to abolish ice and to open up our borders. I think they want border security and I think about the lawlessness is going on in our communities is scaring people. I think they want that they certainly want Racial equality, but they want better police training. They don't want to defund the police officer and they they they want us to rebuild our military to confront and counter in Tudor China. So we've got an excellent chance of taking back that the house because I am not only do we have a positive agenda for this country, but the the alerts towards socialism by the national Democrats. I think it's scaring a lot of Americans and dead. It is, you know, not in the interests of the American people. Look most Americans who are living paycheck-to-paycheck. They believe in work they believe in the Dignity of work off. They believe in safe and secure communities. They believe in a strong military, they believe in respect for our flag and the national anthem. They are not like the coastal Elites who can afford to pay taxes. They are not liked the radical environmentalists who believe in destroying jobs through the green New Deal that they are not like the radical elements of the far left. That would be fun the police. So, you know, the American people the Forgotten men and women of this country I think are with us. We just need to communicate that message and I think the president because of that has an excellent chance of being re-elected and especially if the president is re-elected. I think you will see a a big win by House Republicans with a dog The opportunity to take back the majority. We need to 17 seats to do that. That's all that's pretty neat. 17 seats and and if you think about think about there's there's over thirty incumbent Democrats in the Congress who who are in in congressional districts that President Trump one month in 2016 and Republicans have one every single special election during this two-year cycle when Nancy Pelosi has been back in charge as Speaker of the House. I think the law says a lot and of course the media doesn't want to report that back but the most recent special election victory for Republican Congressional candidate was in a California seat that off that Hillary Clinton won by six points. There are 43 congressional districts that are held by democrats that are more favorable for Republicans than that one. Right. So those are the ones you want to go for and try to pick off. Absolutely. Any any other areas you're interested in talking about this is your show we got about 12 minutes. What time are very excited about the the American worker task force? We're going to be unveiling next week at the the recommendations for policy recommendations of the task force. I have had the honor of being the chairman of that task force in this form of Congress and we are focusing in that task force of unveiling recommendations for when we take the majority back. You know, we may be in the minority right now and we can't get a vote on these good policy ideas because Nancy Pelosi refuses to bring these to the to the house floor dead, but we're not we're not sitting around doing nothing. We're preparing for our opportunity to govern again and we believe that this is really about restoring and renewing the American dream. As I said before it early in the show. We orienting our education system to focus on skills based education apprenticeship, uh looking at in demand jobs those jobs that are in demand in the bath. For market and matching skills and training and education to the the jobs that are in demand. This is this was important before the pandemic. It's especially important now to give workers job opportunities to achieve their god-given potential and give them not just jobs that pay well but careers that pay well and so we focus on three things in in our policy recommendations. We want to fax number one. We want to refine our education system to better equip the American worker number two. We want to refocus labor policy to unleash the American worker and 3 we want to reimagine welfare-to-work power individuals and families. And we think that you know, they're been Decades of ill-conceived government policies that have restricted the opportunity of American workers often as a result too many have been held back by a broken education system. They've been sent into the job market unprepared. They've been punished by over-regulation and they've been abandoned by the wage. State and and we think unlike the the national Democratic party. We think that work is a blessing work is not a punishment work is gives meaning and purpose to people's lives and we are we are the party the Republican party of today is the party of workers and self-sufficiency. We are the party of the Dignity of work wage. We don't believe in dis incentivizing work. We don't believe in paying people to not work. That's what the Democrats are four at the national level the Democratic party and become the party of paying people to not work them from the party of of of discouraging work. They have become the party of socialism and government dependency and and soul-crushing Welfare what thoughts believe is liberating workers to achieve their god-given potential. It's a it's a way in which people earn self-esteem. It's a way which people can pursue happiness. It's a way in which they can realize dead. That they have value to give back to the world. And that is what is so exciting about this American worker task force and we've got over a hundred proposals to empower the workers of town tomorrow so that they're no longer just living paycheck-to-paycheck, but they're able to provide a real higher standard of living for themselves and their families and it couldn't come at a dead more important time as we recover from this pandemic and I'll give you one one inspiring story for my district that shows how with the right policies we can get every American on the on the upward ladder of success in Fleming County Kentucky. They recognized there was a group of people who recognized that you know, a a bachelor's degree or bust mentality is not always the best solution and it can result sometimes in a mountain of debt with a very little return on investment in terms of a good paying job at the end table. Those four years and so what they saw was it was a huge demand for welders in the marketplace. And so they started the Kentucky welding institute Adam Henson and his family started the Control building Institute and they've graduated several graduating classes so far and and they have a wall of fame. You can go to Flemingsburg and you can see this as a wall of fame. Are they put the welding helmet of every graduate of the Kentucky welding institute. It's a twelve thousand to five thousand $15,000 program is the is the tuition you can go to a bank and get a loan for that. You don't have to go to the federal government and get you know, $50,000 in student loans and you go to school for six months. And in your first year anyone who has over a hundred thousand dollars or more in their first year after their six months certification, they get their welding helmet put in the wall of fame and there there's over a dozen of those helmets. Yep. Ready in the Wall of Fame at the Kentucky Welding it's too because these young men and women are getting great jobs and they're getting paid over $100,000 a year so they can not pay back the twelve to fifteen thousand dollars in tuition a year. Once they making more money than they ever dreamed and they're telling me that that now in in the third or fourth year of the institution. They have a student who said heck I can make more than 100,000. I'm going to make $200,000 in my first year out. That's what we're talking about in the American workers task force. We're going to make that dream a reality for millions of American workers and they I saw a Facebook ad that you ran it's very but this week sometime about pre-existing conditions off and just in the social media world people were piling on you about that. You were contradicting your position with pre-existing conditions and dead. I know once again, the media has misrepresented something somewhere. Yeah, it's really unfortunate. I mean, you know, it's it's so sad that that some people have been misled by The Narrative mostly perpetuated by national Democrats and the liberal media that Republicans voted to take away health care or take away protections for people with pre-existing conditions, simply because we wanted to stop the Obamacare loss in Ewing to hurt our people with skyrocketing premiums and the fact that it forced people to lose their health plan that they like at force people to lose the doctor that they like in fact of all the group of people that Obamacare Hurts the Most it was people with pre-existing conditions because for example many constituents of mine who had kids or had loved ones with pre-existing conditions, they lost their special effects. They had health care. They had a health plan. They lost that Health Plan and they were forced into the government exchange, which was a narrow Network that didn't have their choice of doctor and what good job Is Obamacare if it doesn't even give you access to the kind of doctor or the specialist doctor that you need to treat your pre-existing conditions so far from helping people from people with pre-existing conditions Obamacare hurt people with pre-existing conditions, and we tried to fix that and the bill that I and I voted multiple times to protect people with pre-existing condition regularly voted multiple times to guarantee coverage for people with pre-existing conditions. And in the legislation that I voted for the American the American Health Care Act was included in there a guaranteed-issue provision, and it it it's simply it mandated that if you had a pre-existing condition, you cannot be denied access to coverage that is a fact and whenever my opponent or any anybody in the media or any troll on social media says, otherwise, they're just they're either lying or they have a name. A sled and they don't know what the actual facts are. The facts are that I have voted repeatedly to protect people with pre-existing conditions. And I know personally how darn important it is with my sister has struggled with a pre-existing condition her whole life with juvenile rheumatoid arthritis. It is personal to me. I would never vote for anything that would hurt people with pre-existing conditions. And of course with my wife as I as I say in my in my advertisement, she had a pre-existing condition called mitral valve prolapse. I know I know more than most people how important it is to protect people with pristine condition. So it is offensive to me offensive that anyone would suggest or imply that not only do I not understand how important it is, but that I voted in some way to hurt people with pre-existing conditions. It's totally false. It is totally false. And and I'm very very proud that I voted for the American Health Care Act, which would protect people with pre-existing. Yep. Is far better because not only would it guarantee coverage for people with pre-existing conditions? It would do so without increasing premiums or increase in cost. It was a very smart approach using box and invisible reinsurance to keep premiums down while at the same time protecting people with pre-existing conditions. It does so in ways that the Affordable Care Act doesn't and that's why it's a far better policy options for people with pre-existing conditions. And as I say in my TV ad I will never ever under any circumstances support my opponents plan which would put bureaucrats and politicians in charge of our Healthcare but bureaucrats in between people with pre-existing conditions and their doctors that is government-run health care, and that is a disaster for people with pre-existing conditions. The last thing anyone wants including my family is a politician to overrule a doctor who is trying to treat a patient with a pre-existing condition. We have seen that dead. And it is a disaster and I will I am proud of standing up for patients and families, especially patients with pre-existing conditions because they don't need bureaucrats to charge. They need their doctors and they're nurses and their hospitals in charge. Well and Andy, we're we're proud of so much of what you're doing and so much of what you have accomplished and we really hope that we love you buddy. We hope that the the voters will appreciate the same way and we'll get to the polls or get their ballots in and vote voting has never been more important than it is right now. You're exactly right and and it's so important that people not be fooled. Don't be fooled by by you know, anybody who says that that we are not supporting that we being waged publicans are not supporting people with pre-existing conditions. We've done we've done more for for folks in the health-care area and the response to the pandemic than any socialist could ever and buy American-made products look on the back of boxes and and let's do away with China and do our part on that front to hey Andy. Thanks for joining us so much. We always loved having you and you're welcome. Anytime great to be with you all you're listening to the Tom Dupree show Power by to prove Financial Group will be back in just a few minutes with Team Dupree to talk about what's happened in the financial markets this week. Stay tuned. It's happening over there. Yep. In the Middle East happening right here on the police, and then I believe you must vote no matter where it happens. Your world happened showed exactly what happened to your listen and learn news radio 630 wlap. Hi, this is Tom Dupree with Dupree Financial Group many people have 401k and 403b plans for their retirement investment accounts off in certain cases are firm can help participants in these plans manage their Investments. This can be helpful because those retirement plans often offer numerous different mutual funds investment options, and unless the participant is an investment expert. It can be quite confusing. In this case. We put our investment expertise to work for you the participant off for free analysis of your retirement investment accounts call Dupree Financial Group at 859-233-0400. Also, be sure to listen to the Tom depreciate. Saturdays from 7 to 9 a.m. At Newsradio 630 wlap or wlap, That's Dupree Financial Group at 859-233-0500.