20 Episode results for "People's Republic Of China"
Why the NBA (and So Many Other Companies) Cave to China
"American corporations including a few having to do with sports have joined the growing list of American companies who seem committed to appeasing the People's Republic of China and why is it that when companies virtue signal they so often seem to align with China Colson Center. I'm John Stonestreet this is break one more their false gods for breakpoint I'm John Stonestreet forty groups and forcing abortions on women cowardice in direct contrast the city of Prague suspended its sister city relationship with Beijing companies often lineup with Communist China in their virtue signaling what's because like China they see human beings as expendable compared fans in Washington DC had their pro Hong Kong signs confiscated while fans with similar signs at get this Philadelphia Seventy sixer game were kicked out unwillingness to make any kind of moral stand here standing stark contrast to their conviction all moral clarity back in two thousand sixteen when the NBA answer ships
Major Carmakers Sue US Government Over China Tax
"The Appellate podcast shares the stories of multifaceted Africans one episode at a time the podcast aims to uncover The Untold Stories of modern and Millennial Africans off base and various parts of the world. Each episode gives listeners an opportunity to learn and experience conversations that showcase who they are and they're Global perspectives in our own never change in World. Be sure to listen And subscribe to the absolute podcast on Spotify or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. You can also follow at Affiliates podcast on all social media platforms, you're listening to the news at this on Africa Business. Radio major car makers are suing the US government over import taxes. It has imposed on Chinese place a number of lawsuits are reported to have been filed by, cuz in the past few days in the new york-based court of international trade Mercedes-Benz in his firing accused the Trump Administration wage. Prosecuting an unprecedented unbounded and unlimited trade War impacting over five hundred billion dollars in imports from the People's Republic of China. The firing said Tesla in its filing called the tariffs arbitrary capricious and an abuse of discretion founder Elon Musk wants to try this canceled along with a refund back with interest of import taxes paid that was the news at this time and Africa Business Radio, you can continue to listen live online at w w. Africa busy radio.com or via our mobile app and been really, thanks for listening.
People's Republic of China Formed / 30 September Movement assassinated Indonesian army generals - October 1
"Laurie Hernandez is making her voice heard y'all have very big voice and we plan on using it. Now, why are you voting and how are you going to make sure your vote is counted. There are lots of questions this year like how to register vote by mail and how to safely vote in person. That's why facebook created the. Voting. Information Center get information from election authorities and experts at facebook dot com slash both both senator, and don't miss the new podcast from iheartradio in facebook called. Why am voting iheartradio's WAM voting countdown to election day. Your vote is your voice. At target each item you put in your car brings more good to life. Like a coffee brand that opens more is to black business natural laundry detergent that puts a lighter load on the planet wheelchair. Friendly Halloween costumes that said, make the lead in motion and make up a celebrates beauty and every shade here. The good you want is always within reach because at target we believe in good we can all afford. Hello everyone. It's Eve's checking in here to let you know that you're going to be hearing two different events in history in this episode one for me and went from Tracy Wilson, they're both good if I do say so myself on with the show. Welcome to this day in history class from how stuff works dot com, and from the desk of stuff you missed in history class. It's the show where we explore the past one day at a time with a quick look at what happened today in history. Hello and welcome to the PODCAST. I'm Tracy Be Wilson and it's October first on this day in nineteen, forty, nine Mazda Dong. The People's Republic of China Mao Zedong was born in Hunan. Province on December twenty, six, eighteen, ninety three, and at that point China was still under imperial rule the emperor advocated in one, thousand, nine, twelve following a revolution when now is? He trained as teacher for a time before working at a university library in Beijing and he became interested in Marxism, and then in nineteen twenty one, he became a founder member of the Chinese Communist Party or the CCP between one, thousand, nine, hundred, twenty, three, and nineteen, forty nine. The CCP was sometimes allied with, but sometimes at war with. Party the coming Tang Nationalist Party or KMT the. CPI and the CAM t united to drive warlords out from northern China and fight Japan during the second Sino Japanese war and that ran from one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, nine, hundred, forty, five. But between those two events and before and after they were not united, they were adversaries. After the Sino, Japanese war ended the CCP and the KMT went to war against each other and the CCP one that is when on October first of nineteen forty, nine Mao founded the People's Republic of China, at this point China was very poor. It was a mostly agrarian nation that was covering for him years and years of warfare at first the government's primary goal of this newly established People's Republic of China was just to recover from the war there was widespread damage to both the nation's. And Industrial Systems. They got support in this from the Soviet. Union and they followed the Soviet Union's model my how to modernize industry and the economy in the process of all this modernization recovery. China moved from a capitalist supply and demand model to a socialist bottle and China nationalized a lot of its industries by Nineteen fifty-six. Virtually all of the major industries in China were either state owned or joint public private enterprises, and then by nineteen fifty seven, almost all of China's. Part. Of Collective. And a lot of ways, these first five years were a success. There were good harvests. There were a lot of modernizations. People got better farm equipment, that sort of thing. But at the same time, all of these modernizations really strained the Chinese economy there's good harvests were paired with a population boom. So while the harvests were bigger, there were also more. People to feed all the improvements propelled the nation forward faster than the agriculture and the infrastructure could keep up the government had achieved its goals but the people of China. A lot of times felt like they were not better off than before and this led to the first of many attempts at wide-scale reforms that Chairman Mao implemented while he was really China. These were often efforts to completely change the People's Republic of China and the way it's government worked the Chinese government under house. The dog built new hospitals and schools and funded new scientific and medical research and the life expectancy in China increased from thirty five years in nineteen, forty, nine to sixty, five years one, thousand, nine, hundred. But so so many of the attempted reforms did a lot more harm than good. Mouths. Rule over the People's Republic of China was marked by extensive campaigns for modernization and improvement, but also with massacres and famines and purges and. So. Rest and the widespread destruction of Chinese works of Art Architecture and culture in one thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, one there was an attempted coup and an attempt house dogs life he died on September ninth of nine, hundred, seventy six you can learn more about China under chairman. Mao In the twenty fourteen, four part series from Steffi missed in history class including. The great leap forward on September first the great famine on September eighth and the two parts on the Cultural Revolution on September fifteenth and Seventeenth. All of that again is in twenty fourteen. Thanks to Terry Harrison for her audio work on this podcast, and you can subscribe to this day in history class on apple podcasts, Google podcast and wherever else get your podcast. Tomorrow for a massacre. What's it like to drive the Volvo xc ninety plug in hybrid? The thrill of four hundred horsepower t eight twin engine. The Joy. Of Impromptu road travesty. And Serenity. Of Electric Power Impure ECO mode. Visit a DMV Volvo retailer today to experience the xc ninety recharge plug in hybrid for yourself. I install I found on the arrogance curse in. Its eyes are just very lifelike. Then what does it Ted? Keep. Spin. Scary Really scary missing out on GEICO's easy to use mobile APP. You can manage your fico policy. Why never ever? Looks play with another doll. ooh Can just bury it deep in the ground happy gyco Wean, download the industry-leading GEICO APP today. Welcome to this day in history class where we bring you a new tidbit from history every day. Today was October first nineteen, sixty five. A group of Indonesian National Armed Forces members killed fix high-ranking Indonesian generals in a failed coup in Jakarta. The army linked the assassinations to Indonesia Communist Party, and for the next several weeks, the military detained and killed hundreds of thousands of communists, alleged communists and their sympathisers. The coup led to Indonesia's first. President. Sukarno being put on house arrest and General Harto being appointed to the presidency. President Sukarno had begun promoting system of guided democracy since he believed parliamentary democracy was ineffective in Indonesia. As, he began implementing a form of socialist populism he attempted to balance relations with the military communist and religious groups. He supported the Indonesian Communist Party and the army which was largely anticommunist though many in the military did support communism. Land reforms which the communist party pressured Sukarno to. For a major source of tension between the party Muslim religious leaders and the people who controlled the lanes. As Indonesian, Communist Party, gained more influence seeds of doubt grew among army members who were suspicious of the party's intentions and religious groups who were unsure of the party's views. Sukarno became more anti-imperialist and championed economic independence for Indonesia. But the economy declined due to a lack of effective policy. Western nations encouraged anticommunist efforts against the Indonesian, Communist, party Sukarno and the left. In nineteen, sixty, five, the Indonesian Communist Party had three million members and was the third largest communist party in the world. But by this time, there were rumors that senior army generals were planning a coup against the cardinals. And the early morning hours of October I the thirtieth September movement kidnapped and murdered fix of Indonesia's top military generals. The movement members announced over the radio that they had seized power to protect the president and forbid a military coup. The leader of the movement. Lieutenant Colonel in tune told listeners that the president will say that generals had been arrested and that there was about to be a new revolutionary government. But the coup was quickly the army claimed that the Communist Party was responsible for the coup attempt at the time there was not much evidence that the party had any involvement in the action against the military. But General Suharto Commander of the army strategic reserve capitalized on anticommunist intimate and quickly launched propagandistic attacks against communists. He shut down a communist and leftist publications while pro army publications flourished. The PRO army press circulated stories that the murder generals had been tortured and mutilated. Through this campaign, the army inflamed anticommunist feelings, and convinced people that the party was complicit in a huge conspiracy. The military took the opportunity to eliminate the political power of communism in Indonesia which it perceived as a threat. The army police and civilian militias. And killed communist and their supporters into Carta Central, and East Java and Bali as well as parts of other islands. The death toll has been estimated at at least half a million people. It was later discovered that some leaders in the Indonesian Communist Party did play a role in planning the coup, but most people in the party did not know about it. There are many conspiracy theories around exactly who planned the thirtieth September movement and what its goal was. The Communist Party was banned in Indonesia in nineteen sixty five and has been ever since along with any public discussion of the massacre. The military dictatorship that soon took over led by Suharto rolled Indonesia until nineteen ninety, eight with Western support. Indonesia became pro-western and the downfall of communism and Indonesia benefited capitalist country. I'm Eve code and hopefully you know a little more about history today than you did yesterday. If bear any upcoming days in history that you'd really like me to cover on the show. Give us a shout on social media at teased. I Eight PODCAST. We'll see you here in the same place tomorrow. For more podcasts from iheartradio visit, the iheartradio APP apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Welcome to teach me something new a podcast from iheartradio in Britain. On your host Sprint Martin, I'm an entrepreneur, a C. l.. A MOM and I'm curious about a lot of things we've already learned so much together and I can't wait for what's next my co host and best engine are back with brand new episodes every Wednesday. Listen to teach me something new on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Regardless. Of how you vote I. Urge Each of you to vote in a democracy. The right to vote is the most powerful nonvolatile. We have all of us in America heavy, duty To vote go. Vote voting. We're supposed to know how this works right after all. It's the cornerstone of our democracy at the ballot box everyone has to say. But the reality of how voting works in America and who gets to do. It is not as spare or clear cut as we like to tell ourselves long lines and confusion polling place and other members of the Turtle Mountain tribe were turned away from the pools and tonight a backlog of undelivered mail is up in post offices. Train. I'm Katie couric, and this is turn out a podcast exploring America's voting record. As long as there's been a right to vote, there have been waste to suppress it. So we're gonNA talk about it. Talk about the ways voters have been kept out of the system and how to ensure that everyone can participate in our democracy fine turn out on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
The future of Canadas relationship with China
"Come, journey across the globe in an immersive storytelling podcast with film maker, Salim Russian Walla on pin-drop from tat this season checkout musicians trying to save an indigenous language in Lima. What happens to the Tourism Paradise Rapanui also known as Easter Island when people stopped showing up and explore what it means to start a black utopia you can listen to pin-drop wherever you get your podcasts. This is. podcast Eileen making tonight, Mr. Premature. Hardened with the agreements we have reached. Chaired by the frankness and fullness of our discussions grateful for the hospitality. Party. Former Prime Minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau at the end of his historic trip to the People's Republic of China in Nineteen, seventy three. It was the first official visit to the country by a Canadian. Prime Minister and today in fact, marks fifty years since Canada formerly recognize the People's Republic. Of China at the time it was a highly controversial move. The US did not recognize the. Regime in Peking as it was known then and its leadership was not seated at the United Nations. My next guest was a young Canadian diplomat during the fateful negotiations that led to that joint declaration he went on to serve as a Canadian ambassador for fifteen years including to Russia the UK and the European Union Jeremy Kinsman me from Victoria British Columbia Jeremy Kinsman Good Morning. Take us back to that summer of sixty nine when the. Going years standout don't they. This is one we're living through now nineteen, sixty, eight, nine, nineteen, sixty, nine, we're extraordinary years you know that was. Not. Just a great cultural revolution going on in China I mean it was the assassinations in the United States or cities were burning. the Russians the union invaded Prague. There was as in Monto May and in France the whole kind of landscape of the world seemed to be unraveling. Of course, the summer of sixty nine when I was in Stockholm during that the beginning of the negotiations It was also Neil. Armstrong getting to the moon. So it wasn't all bad news, but it was a time of extraordinary change. What do you remember about those negotiations? Well, I remember it was very fraught I mean Canada was breaking some ice at have been frozen for some time on who who was actually the legitimate government of China. and then, and then just when people were getting coming around to recognize the the obvious fact, eight, hundred, million people that China were controlled by the government in Beijing. But we weren't we weren't alone in wanting to do this I mean Ah Belgium in Italy where we're contemplating does well into Gaul had done. So in nineteen, sixty four, but people were looking to us to how was GonNa work what the former though would be. Particularly with respect to Taiwan it because it was obviously going to set some kind of a template for the future for other people to do the same thing, what was the thinking behind taking that step? Well, the thinking was that logic compelled recognition of the fact that the government of aging was the government of China. And the United Nations membership was was pretty rapidly coming to that conclusion in Canada. It was Pierre Trudeau I I don't think it was logical in any respect it was pragmatic. He just felt that It was the logical thing to do. The talks are headed. Well, they're happening in the shadow of the Cultural Revolution millions died in that and I just wonder was there concern that recognizing this regime would be seen as a some sort of tacit endorsement of what happened when you say the shadow actually it was winding down by then not Actually the world didn't know that much about what was going on in China. There are so few foreigners in China at that time. And so we know now we didn't know then but in any event, the important thing is Canada and most most countries followed the kind of British model of recognition of of diplomatic relations. There's no morality. It's simply a question of does this government have control of the country? And if so, you need to have diplomatic relations with governments that exist. You don't exclude some because you don't like him you need to have them. Though that that was the premise. Of sabotage these negotiations what was going on in the background and there's a lot of That's why I went there I was a kid in. Brussels. In, between NATO and and our fledgling mission to to the European Common Market and I got set up there to try and lend a hand to figure out what what was going on with all this These these little disruptions you know people were Turning up facsimiles of replica of Canyon Telegrams from our embassy that refers to the Chinese just seat full and and derogatory things like that and who knows who was. Putting these out. I mean I could have been obviously the nationalist government Anti WanNa could have been. The Americans it could have been lots of people other stuff was happening. We had a guy come over, of course, these negotiations, fourteen sessions of drinking tea with the Chinese negotiator over a period of well over a year, and they were kind of the talk of the town in Stockholm and so Canadian visitors were watched with a lot of scrutiny and curiosity interest and and they were all involved in this I. Mean there was one guy came over from external affairs. He was a decorator for a new residents radium bachelor. And he got mad at the airport by black limousine and a guy, a black suit and holding up a card but his name and drove him into town, but he didn't get to town. He got hold out of the car and beaten up halfway in what was that about you know, and these were just efforts to disrupt to intimidate to bother to. There was definitely hostility to monitor part of some to the change that this would represent fast forward fifty years there has been a real cooling of relations between Canada and China the new. Conservative leader Erno tool has called on this country to take a much harder line and a much different approach to dealing with China. What do you make of that approach? Oh, you know it's a cycle I. China has changed a change with we Xi Jinping we we all know that he reasserted an awful lot more political control in China, and that. Bothers us a lot They've been a you know aggressive economically and expanding their influence. There's nothing wrong expanding your influence I mean everybody's trying to do that. But, they're accused of doing it by you know amount of of bullying and And and they've been just enormously successful. They're so successful challenging united. States for primacy economically in the world part of that part of that, what people would call bullying scooping up to Canadians and Michael, covert Michael, staffer. Chinese prisoners. Yeah. I would say that yes. But that was in direct response to what they consider are scooping up laying Manju at Y VR, on behalf of the United States unilateral application of their law on on Iran what the Chinese did in in reprisal was grotesque no question about it. So in late in light of what you call grotesque, what should candidates relationship with China be now China's a fact. I. Mean it's there. It's it's about to be the biggest economy in the world. If we're going to succeed in the world, we gotta have a relationship with that country. We don't like our values are challenged. By stuff they're doing right now in Hong Kong. It's not good what they're doing to the weavers their constant hostility to bet you know it goes on and on but the world needs China to be part of a agreements in the world that are countering the real threats whether it's a climate change or damage or you name it, and so we got to cooperate in that sense at the same time we compete with an economically and at the same time as we contest some of the things that are doing the challenge universal understandings or semi universal understanding. So Human Rights Canada hold any cards and that. I I. Don't Canada's Canada's got to behave as a state I think Joe Biden is going to win in November third and it's going to be a little easier maybe even with China we'll see but I'm not saying it's GonNa be a Lovey Dovey of course not I think that but it's GonNa be. It's GonNa be better all around. The United States is going to lead democracies and challenging some things. About the way, China is behaving. It's going to be obviously an awful lot more effective. If Not Donald Trump doing it, I was GonNa say just wonder whether that relationship between Canada and China can be anywhere close to normal while those Canadians remain in prison there. No, it can't we have to solve that. Jeremy Kinsman. It's a real pleasure to talk to you. You have some fascinating stories about what happened fifty years ago and where we may go in the next year. Thank you. Thank you met Jeremy. Kinsman was a young diplomat Jerry negotiations for Canada to recognize the People's Republic of China. He served as ambassador to Russia and the EU as well as the High Commissioner in London. He smashed pretty much every billboard and streaming record that matters. It has already been streamed more than a billion times. People still to this day point to this is the moment everything changed. But whether you agree with those claims are not this podcast isn't really about him either you're not an astute businessman or you're inherently racist when it comes to black music and his country this is not a drake podcast available now on CBC listen or wherever you get your podcasts. From CBC PODCASTS and the Fifth Estate brainwashed is a multi burn investigation into the as experiments in mind control from the Cold War and M. K. ultra to the so called war on terror, we learn about a psychiatrist who used his patients as human guinea pigs and what happens when the military and medicine collide listen to brainwashed on the CBC listen APP or wherever you get your podcasts. My next guest has worked hard over her thirty seven year career in government to advance the relationship between Canada and China. But now she has become an increasingly vocal critic of the she regime. Margaret mcquaid Johnson is a senior fellow at the University of Ottawa with China Institute at the University of Alberta. Margaret Good morning to you. We just heard Jeremy Kinsman described the fanfare and the drama. Canada and China establishing relations. Fifty years ago. Is this an anniversary worth celebrating? no as long as. Canadians are being held hostage and four more with execution sentences given to them. I don't think there's anything to celebrate and that's really tragic Certainly, Pierre Trudeau was absolutely right to recognize China in nine nineteen seventy was reflecting the reality at that time and Canada has been a friend of China for decades part of the reform and opening up in the nineteen eighties and and the big annual team Canada visits that prime minister, credit u ladd in the nineteen nineties. but no we've seen a lot of changes in China under Xi Jinping in the last five years I would say it's really dramatically changed its role but the kidnapping of our Canadians was really the last straw for many Canadians including myself candidates, I wanNA talk about that in a moment. But just briefly Canada's ambassador did manage to get these virtual concert visits with Michael Corrigan Michael's power over the weekend. The first time that they had news from the outside world after months of isolation is that an encouraging sign? Well it's It's it's. Dealing, with a big hole that we had in our relationship in terms of no consular visits at all the coronavirus has really left China. So the fact that we can't have in person meetings is still a big problem and they deserve to have in person meetings but you know our ambassador's been very strong in putting forward all of these points he went himself to done done to try to see Michael Spa for and. Try to get in by being right on the spot. That was a terrific idea didn't work but but you know it's it's great for the families that we that we saw the virtual visit last weekend But that's there's certainly a long way to go in the relationship to try to address the problems that we've got now you call this kidnapping why was the detention of Michael covered Michael savage such a turning point for you? Well, it's completely unjust and you know it's in retaliation obviously poor the arrest of Manuel and Joe and You know this is this is a hostage taking that We are certainly not just seeing by ourselves. Other countries have been facing this to You know like Taiwan Australia Japan, they all have people. Hostage Right now So we're not alone and in fact, prime minister thanked President Trump just on Saturday for his attempts to have the immediate release oath my the Michaels, and it's really hitting home because Beijing has instructed us to stop trying to get other countries to help us they don't like. Being called out on their abnormal behavior, you are in Shanghai at the time. Did you worry about your own safety? Well. Yes. I was in Shanghai and my own locked suitcases in my hotel room were searched and I was talking to a Chinese national at a meeting about the fact that our people had been kidnapped and he said Oh well, China's got a list of one hundred Canadians that they can pick up and interrogated any time and when I got back to Canada I I heard, yes there is such a list from from a number of people. Now, what other country does this? You know this is not an appropriate strategy for international relations. Should there be. Critical of China kidnapping. People and the mass arrest of Human Rights Defenders I've spoken out against wall way and five G. and so under China's new National Security Law for Hong Kong I'm now at risk of being extradited to China to stand trial if I happen to fly through one of the fifty five countries have an extradition agreement with China and So you know this is this is a far-reaching strategy that China now has to Anyone who is critical should there be. Given the these two men in particular that are being held and people say that this is being done and directly because Canada has detained the while we executive Joe should there be some sort of prisoner swap John Manley. The former deputy prime minister is among those saying let her go and that will you urge China to release these two men that's something candidate should even consider. Well, in fact, this is what? Beijing is counting on their counting non-canadians to pressure government to send her home and the fact that prominent Canadians are doing. It is the icing on the cake for them and we we all want our citizens returned to us. You know I never gave an interview before last year when I started to speak out because somebody's got to speak out against his behavior, but it doesn't mean we should sell our. Souls and Kowtow is lowest possible by sending her home that would just teach China to take more hostages whenever it wants a country to fall into line on anything and some countries have caved in past and that's why China continues to do it I think they're finding now that candidate isn't going to cave in and we're working with other countries to call China. I would on its action there are Chinese Communities across this country and many Chinese Canadians have watched the worsening relations between our country and China with with dismay our producer and penman caught up with bill ye over dim-sum invent couvert billy came to Canada from count on, which is now known as Guangzhou as a teenager went on to become the first Chinese Canadian elected to Vancouver City Council, later, a provincial court judge how listened to what he had to say. As far as I can remember, Chinese. Have always. had a very good view of Canadians. Because the story about Dr Nomin Perfume. When he? helped. Many Chinese people. At a time of need. He was a Chinese rule. When. I laid a telegraph of young Chinese Canadians to visit. China in one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, four. We had a huge reception and the way they described his. Friends from. Home of Dr Nominee but. We got the red carpet treatment. So to me it's very. Important. I want as a Canadian. To improve. The relation. Ship between the people. Of the two countries as well. because. By increasing trade I think both countries would benefit. It's Too, bad at this point in time. The relationship between the two countries are not. Dispatched as my. With it most most challenging times. But. I am optimistic that in the future when. The political. Problems that we're facing would eventually be resolved. And The friendship between out two countries. Will continue to flourish. We don't have to think alike. As long as you have their mutual respect. Obviously. A country with the kind of population at the time difficulties. have run to different from us. Also acknowledge the fact that our system is not perfect look at homelessness that we have. Looked at the. Drug addictions that we have. Look at. Many of the out deficiencies re talk about in our political system. Have not been. Any progress. Why I'm saying I'm not blaming anybody who I'm saying is the system look at the US same thing. The gap between the haves and have not. Have not. narrowed. Wider as a matter of fact. Doesn't that. Tell you some thing about out political system. I'm not saying it's easy. I don't have a solution for. When you assess country assess people just like neighbors. You don't try to run their family for them because. I know my family you know your family I have to respect the weight on yours and I'd like watch I expect you respect my Ira while we still in good neighbors. It's bill, Ye retired provincial court judge and former member of Vancouver City Council. Margaret, mcquaid Johnson, what do you think of that idea that we don't have to agree with China? To have a good relationship? Well and I, think mister he makes a really good point that the people to people relationship between Canada and China is very strong and and we do need to treat one another with mutual respect The problem we've run into is China the it's not the Chinese people it's the. Beijing regime is not treating Canada with respect and in fact, last year they said that you know Canada's not a middle country Canada's a small country and how to stop leaning towards the U- US and You know no matter why Canada arrested Matt among you did it and you have to be punished. That's not the attitude of a country that respects another country and and so you know I think you have to recognize that this is driven by Xi Jinping himself and all of the the problems with the militarization of the South China Sea. In two thousand, fifteen, the mass arrests of human rights, lawyers, and environmentalists in Twenty twenty sixteen the building of the the cultural genocide camps for the week irs The social credit system which tracks would everybody is saying and punishes those that criticize the government. These are all just in the last five years, and so you know it's we do need to distinguish between the she regime and the people of China It's very disturbing to think that some Asian Canadians are being yelled at and assaulted in connection presumably with the corona virus and the fact that. China didn't get on top of that as it was being exported into other countries. So and we also have the military threats of China Gainst India and Taiwan. So there are a lot problems in the relationship right now but we are not alone and Our government is working closely with other like minded countries they're talking about imposing thing sanctions under Magnus magnitsky legislation we're looking at banning. Go ahead and do that, and there have been some statements in the government that we should be diversifying away from China to other countries in the Indo Pacific. I think that would be an excellent idea not just for trade and investment, but also population health and security science and technology. There are all kinds of things that Canada can be doing with other. Countries in the region so that our companies are not so dependent on trade with China, they could vanish overnight as we've seen this past year I. We just have a few seconds left I guess in some ways you agree with what Jeremy Kinsman of saying that the relationship I mean is important but the relationship can't be relationship until at least these two men afraid. That's right and and frankly I don't think any politician or official or business executives should be celebrating the fiftieth anniversary today was Chinese government officials There's nothing to celebrate until we get our citizens home and that is and should be a priority for the government China's important country will continue to do business there but we have to support our own values and our own citizens when they're traveling abroad mcquaid great to speak with you again. Thank you. Talk to you Margaret mcquaid Johnson a senior fellow in the Institute for Science, Society, and policy at the University of Ottawa and China Institute at the University of Alberta your thoughts on this. Welcome. You can email us at the current CBC dot. CA. Tweet us at the current CBC or head to the website CBC DOT CA slash current. Click on the contact link for more CBC PODCASTS GO TO CBC DOT CA slash podcasts.
China's Muslim detention camps
"Today. Why up to a million weakest a minority Muslim grape being held in massive interment camps in China and Bella Mackey talks about the transformative powers of running? So I was walking through some villages, and it had this location that I was looking for head co-ordinates for it. And I didn't really know what it would look like, and I get to this corner. And suddenly, I see it say. It's a massive complex. There are these tall white walls that stretch as far as I can see and on top of them these circles of which either barbed wire or electric fencing and every few meters row of surveillance cameras. There are police some of them with these kind of long the tons. And there's a police car that keeps striving to up and down the road. There was a group of people standing across the road in front of the little shops and a woman selling skewers of meat and vegetables. But nobody was talking with other. Nobody was buying anything. Nobody was doing anything set for just looking at this massive building. We'll swimming. You know as went up to people and tried to ask them what this thing was that. We were looking at. Nobody seemed to know even though they were there waiting for something. People would sort of shrink back and didn't wanna talk and wouldn't make eye contact. Dodger? That's when I realized that I had arrived at this place that I was looking for a re education camp. China make all these reeducation centers. But I'm nasty international hauls them detention camps. The Chinese government says it's tackling extremism among Northey Muslim group known as weeK' others paint a much darker picture from the guardian. I'm Gristana today in focus loss really happening to up to a million Muslims being held captive in China. So reeducation center is a detention facility activists and critics of the similar call them prisons. China would call these training centers. But according to people that had been in them, some of whom we've interviewed people whose family members have been in the activists, and researchers they are places where Muslim minorities are sent. And they are educated as they are taught Chinese propaganda to change them into 'obedient periodic citizens. They have to learn Mandarin. They have to learn patriotic songs they have to constantly praise. The communist party teaching ping. There's no trial doesn't have to process and not told when they're going to be able to leave that locked inside. Right. So the one that we saw you could see bars and all the windows. You could see surveillance cameras inside their heavily guarded their watched hours. There's barbed wire all around and people that we've talked to have described them as places where you're basically control the whole time that you're there. How many saw that the estimates range between two hundred to one thousand two hundred on the numbers in them. There are as many as a million Muslim minorities in these camps. So that's mostly weaker. But also ethnic Kazaks quays care goes and some other minorities too. Tell me about the week is the weaker are very different from hen Chinese people. They look different they speak a different language and they're in the far north west of the countries in the region. Koshen Jiang right Jong is the largest region in China. I mean, it's massive it can fit the size of the UK, France and Germany, and then some it has about twenty million people about fifteen million of them are Muslim minorities. Most of them are weaker and pretty much since the founding of the People's Republic of China. The government has been trying to control this region and established sovereignty over these people. So China says it's dealing with the threat of terrorism from separatist, Islam it grapes. At least twenty one people have been killed in this fighting in China's troubled far west region of Shane Jiang that were riots in the region's capital in two thousand and nine in which many people died scurity forces in Shing Jain province have reportedly short that the team people of the drove into police station and set off an explosive since then have been terrorist attacks, including a car bomb in tandem in square that Xinjiang separatists claim responsibility for here are calling it an active terrorism striking in the heart of Beijing right in TNN square, which in many ways is the symbolic heart of China this event government said we terrorists were to blame for a knife attack at a crowded train station in which thirty one people with killed a confrontation involving knives. Axes and gums and did with a house being burned down an act. Local authorities have blamed on terrorists. Chinese government says it security program is an essential part of the war on terror, but human rights groups argue that the violence has stemmed from oppression, and they say an attempt to talk a few militants has led to a needless crackdown on an entire community lily. What's the situation for the week today at the moment, the Wickers are under intense control and threat of being sent to one of these camps and also series of other measures. You know, communist party volunteers come and stay in their homes, and they don't really have a choice in that matter. They have to check in with the police they have to go to flag-raising ceremonies anytime, they go to a different village or or leave the city that they're they have to go through lots of checkpoints where they go through full body scans. Their phones are put into machine and scan for any content that steamed questionable or extremists and within the areas where they live. They also as walking down the road. They'll be stopped in the phones will be checked. So, you know, it's not just the camps. It's just a constant surveillance state. While you're in a Phillies in the region. He came across something called the red star family program is that apparently this system has been in place for all, but I hadn't heard of it until I walked around this village and saw that pretty much every house in this village had this sign up, and then they ass propaganda official about it. And he said that it was his ten requirements and later they were things like patriotic spirit contract stream is thought, and then another one was like an understanding of the value of money or making money, which I thought was really interesting what vase signs like. Like a little kind of metal plaque and has little red stars on a in its weaker and in Chinese than it says that this is a model red star family. Let's say an entire community. An entire religion is essentially being subject to methods of suppression on surveillance, China will say that it's not about a religion. And that it's about extremism and extremist thought, but then it will describe certain behaviors as extremists like going to mosque or praying too much or wearing avail going to mosque is included extremist behavior going to mosques too much so praying too much. So in the county went to the local government had just set up a life feed surveillance system, all of the mosques in that county. And so when you go into the mosque you have to register your ID cards, so nobody really wants to go. Wade spoke with one woman who was in detention center a room change. She said that a woman there said that she was there because she had sent a happy Eden to people on her phone. And so a lot of people we spoke to who are outside a lot of them. What have on their on their profile? Things like I love the communist party and sort of Chinese flags or different Patrioric backdrops 'cause they thought that that might help them out. So on the one hand, this is about making you incredibly patriotic. But it sounds like the very much trying to squeeze religion out to people as well. I mean, is it a form of ethnic cleansing? It's not so much trying to get rid of people and kick them out of a place, but it is an effort to completely assimilate them into the basically a race, their culture and language into sinicized them, and to what extent the camps fit into this. I mean, how am I talking people the reasons that you can be sent to camp seem to really very so one woman said that she didn't have her idea with her somebody else, we spoke to said, there was no reason other people said that they were there because of music that they had found on their phone messages or somebody had told authorities something about them also it can be based on quotas. So in a particular area, those local which is. Grab people. What do we know about so-called reeducation inside these camps people describe being forced to learn Chinese for lots of ours being forced to learn patriotic songs and recite parts of Chinese law and pledge allegiance and praised Xi Jinping. And the communist party, your monitored the whole time that you're in even when you're sleeping every room has Spence camera, and you're not allowed to turn your back to it basically as sleeping God. We know that there are some instances of violence and torture inside the Kim. So there have been cases of sleep. Deprivation one detainees that we spoke to said that he was put in something called tiger for six hours the metal contraption that forces you to stand with your arms and your legs out, and this ex-detainee he had a very difficult time in the kitchen campy was in and he at one point even tried to kill himself by ramming his head into the wall. So you've been reporting in the area you've seen these comes from the outside. Did you get any sense of how people get out? I'm when so the air that we went to there were two compounds sunny side of a highway and the compound that I described that was this massive kind of prison-like facility that one I was told people are there for years, that's a long term one. And then the other one I noticed that there were people outside of it. And they were there to see relatives inside. And I was also told that that particular facility was kind of a lower intense one where people could come home for night on the weekend. But then on Sunday they have to go back. And what's the consequence of all of this for the local communities for the local communities? It's I mean, we could send it when we were there people were terrified to talk to us in one, man. The we spoke to he was too polite to tell us to leave and I. I felt really awful about it. Because as he was talking to us than in the middle of it. He said, I'm scared to speak with you because they'll retaliate. I think it's also very difficult for the communities outside of China because they're trying to find out what's going on inside. They're trying to they're separated from their families trying to find out what's happening to them one person that I spoke to he was one of the few in his family that had a passport was able to leave the country, and he begged his mother to go with him, and she wouldn't go with him because you couldn't leave the rest of his siblings in Xinjiang by themselves before they parted she said to him, you know, maybe this will all blow over in a year or two, and then we can meet again. And he said, I hope so, but he told me that he really doesn't think that that's going to be the case. He has to live with that decision that he made in leaving his family behind for the rest of his life. This story reported in China. So for a longtime China wholesale denied that these camps existence at dinner, there's no such thing. And then in two thousand eighteen they kind of changed the narrative and have started to whitewash these camps. And so now, they emphasize this aspect of them being occasional training centers and said that this is part of a poverty alleviation program to help the local residents. So there's an effort to make the Kemp's look normal and sound like they're basically summer camps that these are places you can play basketball and all the dorms have air conditioning, and people aren't skills in the NAFTA. They come out employable, but you can't come out until they let you out right? And you don't have a choice of going into them. China's difficult country to report from it's an yes, I would say can you describe some of the challenges to us? So I was here between two dozen eight in two thousand and ten and then just came back this past ally and even between now, and then I can tell difference people are much less willing to talk. There is a lot less public debate. When I was here before you could call an economic speech person on the street and people would offer their real opinions about things, and I used to say by China's not this please state that people think that it is. But this I feel like it is moving that direction and more and more people that we tried to talk to they can't talk or something actually happens to them when they tried to. So that is difficult is trying to speak do people trying to find out what's happening and do that in a way that doesn't risk these people their safety. You're stopped driving by in taxi and guards at the camp saw in the car, and I had my phone, and he thought it was taking a photo video and he yelled car. Stops. And then suddenly just a swarm please to descend on us. And then they took my camera. And we're asking what I was doing. And maybe go into this police station that was part of the camp. I was surprised at how quickly these local government officials from the this from the propaganda department came and kept asking me, you know, who did you speak to how long have you been here? How did you get here? And they kept asking speak to would you talk to him about. And of course, it didn't want to say anything because it's very dangerous for people to speak to foreign reporters or speak to foreigners and communicate and transmit and informations. And that's what makes reporting this difficult. They've actually let me go. You know, they said we don't have anything to hide we welcome reporters. Here. It's just that you need to register with the officials in the nearest city in order to report it, which is not true, actually. And they said, you know, and for your safety. We will have escorts for you for the rest of your time. Say the Chinese government argue that they are trying to prevent extremism and a vast region all that other narratives out that about why this is happening another negative that is speaks to the country as a whole is that the situation, and she John is part of a broader worsening human rights situation in China. And so under Xi Jinping, the space for dissent, the space for activism has shrunk dramatically. And so some people would say that situation and Jinjiang is just a symptom of that. And that kind of worryingly it's an example of what methods could be used across China, so not necessarily directly linked to the riots or the attacks that have taken place, right? It's more about control. At some extent, Xi Jinping is trying to present China in a much more modern lie on the world stage. When we talk about him meeting, foreign leaders, focus is always on the economy or trade. Do you think the world is turning a blind eye to what's going on in China? It does seem to be the case that countries are hesitant to say things about the situation because of their trade relationship with China or because of their veto diplomatic relationship. But the situation does seem to be changing and the last year as there's been more reports about what's happening there and UN has made statements and very rights groups have mitt Simmons. Now, governments are also starting to push for accountability and push for access to the region to see the camps and see what's going on unfettered access, not just these government organized tours. So I do think that it's changing. While we'll wait for international pressure on this story. What about the week is themselves? I think the scale of this goes beyond just what's happening right now. And what's happening to the people that it affects it will extend into the future. I think there will be a generation if not more generations who are psychologically traumatized by this. And it's definitely one of the worst human rights situations in the history of China lily. Thank you. Thank you. Lilly quays reporting from her recent trip to the Xinjiang region has been published and you can read it at the guardian dot com. Coming up Bala Mackey on coping with anxiety. Now writer, Bella Mckee describes deteriorating mental health, and how joking made a huge difference. Hard punish talks in crowded places, and in so places where couldn't see an obvious exit. And I think that's very common for those people who suffer with mental problems. And so I found it so increasingly hard to get into lots of parts of London. There are lots of things I have dominate your life, and including kind of huge of gentlemen in your body will do time and a brain that you can't switch off on running for me is a chance to shut my brain up. The fact that you are out there in the world's doing something on you own gives people who anxious this kind of big boost of confidence which inequality when people don't have much of. I started running up an Omni way in the dog. Because I thought people would laugh at me all coast doing it room. Found gyms intimidating because they will they know what they're doing. I did feel quite impressed. I manage to do something different and on my own. So I've just carried on doing it. And I I downloaded the couch to five K up and made my way up to running five kilometers in one session. I think it takes about eight weeks. And by that point, I just thought I could fly I developed this kind of new magical skill gave me the confidence of Goto places because I when I can get myself out of here. I'm so of the most of my own mind route in a way. Well for me. It would be interesting to see if the people and so share some of my experiences. People with a variety of different survey. She's from mental health problems too bereavement and separation. And I think the one thing they will have in common was it's kind of incredible determination to fight through it and make themselves better. Somehow, you know, and and for lots of people that meant medication and therapy, and they will looking for something else. Like an extra thing that might be able to pull them through it and vote of these people it was running. Since the bit has been really whelming had hundreds and hundreds of messages from people telling me that life stories and explaining all the problems that they've had and lots of them saying running his help them to the reaction. I get the most is you know, you made me feel less alone. I don't think running secure I think there is a cure for anxiety for me. It's it's one tool in a toolbox. Say therapy medication support, friends and family. I started running into places deliberately new funds. Gary I used to run into SoHo I run into innocent James's or tourists are housed opponent. From that. I realize that you know, there wasn't very much to worry about the the city was not my enemy. It seems so impossible. I could do that I stopped because. I would hate for anyone think, oh, she's wearing a big anxiety, and she sought it because you know, told I have much better today and more of them. But it's it's a long term, Johnny. And and running for me is something also of trying to all time because with mental illness recovery takes of work. That was key. His book joke on is out. Now. That's it. For today. This episode was produced by David waters. Lisa cream. Well, I'm Calia and Elizabeth Casson sound design was by Manley. The executives Phil may not Aniko Jackson. Tomorrow.
Pop-Punk & Pizza #108: Chachy Englund of Round Eye
"Radio. RADIO DOT COM all. Charity. Alan. Dow. Come in. A. Pop PUNK PIZZA DOC. Hello and welcome to the PODCAST. Before we get to today's guest I just WanNa, say thank you to anyone that is something from the pop punk and pizza podcast merch store recently had a couple orders here and there, and it really does help every little bit helps fund the podcast and keep me going and further and further pursue my dream this. This podcast is not my full time job and I'm hoping one day that it will be and with your help I'm getting. Closer and closer to my dreams each and every day. So I just WanNa say seriously, thank you so much from the bottom of my heart for that. You can buy something if you wish are merch store, we've got a couple of different designs for you. There's pop punk in pizza ruined my life shirts, hoodies, etc, and then is pop punk pizzas saved my life t shirts, hoodies, face masks, etc, and then there's also just merch with the regular pop pumpkin pizza podcast logo. On. It. So you can go to bang radio. Dot Com forward slash merge and once there they'll be a link that you can click on that will take you to the official merch store so banger racing radio dot com for slash Merch, and then at checkout make sure you use that Promo Code Pop punk for two dollars off your order fall is right around the corner. So if you're in need of some brand new hoodies, there's multiple hoodies from zip over or from hip Hop to pullovers that you can choose from and multiple colors from pop punk pizza podcast. So once again, thank you so much for the love there. So our guest today is from China now he's not originally he's not born and raised in. China. He was actually born in Chicago and then spent most of his life in Florida and then about ten years ago, made the big leap to Shanghai. China and he's been there ever since and I was delighted to talk to him. because. Have never talked to a band that's based in China before this was a really cool thing to hear how life is for a punk rock band in China. So let's get to my conversation with Chachi England of the band around die. They just released a a brand new album entitled Culture Shock Treatment being put out via plastic records. It's kind of funny that Chachi was on the show because we just had vinnie Fiorello the owner of paper and plastic. He was just on the show last week. If you missed that episode, you can go back and check it out and hear everything that Vinnie's up to these days. He's got a brand new project called the inevitable's that's a scout punk. Project also a comic book project is well, really cool thing he's got going on but anyway, in the meantime, let's get to Chachi kind of around die. Welcome Chachi England of a round died from Shadai currently in the subway. Yes. So. Sorry about the confusion with the Times earlier. Hey, don't don't worry about it. Man I get easily confused with math in the time zones and so I just love right now that it's morning here in. Illinois in the US and it's evening and are you actually in Shanghai or you in like one of the surrounding areas or? I'm enjoying Sean Park Right. Now heading to show actually from the mice having the last show. So. So shows her happening in Shanghai what's what's the situation with Covid nineteen right now? Wearing a face mask right now but that's only because I'm in the subway. So like public transit such as speed train airplane. Subways. Masks, but in fact, she don't use but not anymore. Okay. So so things are as far as the virus goes things are are much. Shows now it's a packed house of social distancing. It's back to normal. We playing back to normal since about April maybe march no. Okay I guess I keep forgetting that it. It hit you guys obviously earlier than it hit us here in the US. So we're we're still going through did. The. Benefits of having. The talented. -Tarian State, you can shut a whole fucking country without anybody. Getting hurt by a match. Which one? Good. That is one positive thing I will say about. That is one. And that's you know that was like the the big thing I wanted to talk to you about today because I'm reading about round. Latest record culture, shock treatment, and this this album is talking about the the communist state of China. Right. And I don't like, I'm not super familiar with the politics of China. So that was one of the big things I wanted to learn from you today is what what exactly is. The political state of China, how things work and water you fighting against with culture shock treatment. Okay so Basically this entire country is run by the whim of teaching and his military. So. and. It's always confusing actually because okay with the communist state, you'd think being communism that works for the people and in some regards does especially with healthcare. But? When it comes, there is absolutely no freedom of speech here there's nothing like the press. Completely censored. The television so censored Lehto. Education is centered I work at a slow music teacher at a school in every every semester both through the same. Communist Party meeting about. Okay, you have to include Hong Kong and Taiwan and our map. All? This. Of Crap. and. You're at the complete whim of You know the authorities here so they can just shut you down whenever they want. What exactly are you asking? I guess. It's it's cool. Well the you know the description of the record is you know talking about how you're trying to call attention to the the oppression oppressive communist state of the People's Republic of China. So I guess that's that's what I'm asking like what is the? Current state and I guess you you pretty much answered my question you know. Magic. Imagine a real life. eighty-four. Yeah Oh my gosh. Last book that book is nuts I remember when I read that book and High School and I thought Oh my God. It's and. That's where you live. I wasn't going to say it's true. It came true unfortunately There's no such thing. Due process here. You know there's an the lawyer system there's no sustain as. On second. Sure. Okay. I'm out of the subway. Cool. So okay. So actually to be honest with you, I've always been curious to ask to interview a Chinese lawyer because I have no idea what kind of rights they actually. Yeah. Yeah I was GonNa say do you have any friends that have had any entanglements with the law to do? It's more like corporate affairs domestic matters it's usually it's never anything against the cops abuse of power. It's never anything like that. It seems every see like a corrupt officials getting. Subpoenaed or questioned it's always within the circle of the higher ups in the government. You know. It's not like it's not like some investigative reporter for the Washington Post S- putting a spotlight on something. You know what I mean and yeah, 'cause her 'cause they can't. They can't do that. They probably get down. Yeah. Absolutely gets then thrown in jail and families would feel the repercussions of their crime, right? Exactly. So if something like that actually did get published or maybe even before Coupla published, they'd find themselves in prison. Right and The real fear factor here for China is with any local citizen is that they don't just go after you they go after. That's not that's that's that's extremely scary. I mean back in the day. If you were sentenced to died, it would shoot you're right and then the yeah bill your family, the bullet. Oh my God. That is savage man I can't. I just can't imagine I just can't wrap my head around Israel talking kind of loud enough. Looking at me, they're like what? Like this guy we might have to. Well, I don't WanNa get you in trouble. But I did when I was in your facebook, you're are you originally from Chicago? I was born in Chicago, but I'm more of A. Litmus light okay. I'm just fifty miles from Chicago. So all right on. Yeah. So I, was curious as like. So how did he wind up from Chicago to Shanghai to end? Yeah, I saw you. Were in Florida one point two. So. Yeah So I moved away from Chicago and I was like to so I won't super okay when I have friends come up to me there from Chicago like properly or even my sister you know they all talk about Chicago and say like Oh this place over in Lincoln's like dude I have no idea what. You Talk Orlando I could talk all day about that but I mean So what brought me here was in a band called Libyan hit squad about ten years incentive quarter. And in that band, there was a drummer. Nate Hall any. Moved to China in two, thousand, six, six, seven, I think it was those years. And he was here for. Probably, the last high watermark that the Chinese underground, her head, which with bands like PK, fourteen, carsick cars, and SUVs and stuff. And he saw what went down and And he came back and reported at all to me and he said all you gotta come out here man is incredible. It's just so crazy and I was like, well, I kind of filed it in the back of my mind like most people do. Yeah maybe I'll do that sometime in my life. Yeah. Sure. Okay. Exactly, right? Yeah. I'M GONNA, give up my whole life and go to China. And then and. Then right after that the recession happened. So man, I'm a mess. Countries in a mess I can't find work. And I decided well, fuck it and I just gave up everything get broke up with my girlfriend gave her the dog gave up the wrote the lease. Broke up the band. West I didn't even know how to say hello in Mandarin. Avenue, nothing. Is Left. And it turns out to be one of the best decisions I've ever made. Wow. So you just jumped fall on in not knowing a Dan thing. Nothing line. So. was moved to the cities that my friend was in. He was in Beijing Anti U.. N.. I moved to Shangai Okay so you've been in Shanghai this whole time. Wolton yet. So when you first got there, what were your first impressions? Okay. So like ten years ago, the city was beautiful I mean this is before Xi Jinping. Tell candice and. It was a different place man like those rules in place in. Yeah. The communists were still there but they weren't really looking that. The whole city operated by their own. Honor System. People were getting crazy and there was just it was so much fun and so wild and. You could it was just such a party. And then with the ascension of. P It was like that was two, thousand fifteen. You really started to theater that presents president more cops more surveillance more cameras. The social credit insistent came in facial recognition came in everything started changing very quickly. Because he he he's more of a Mao mouse you know what I mean. He wants to bring everything back. Those ideals kind of second poultry revolution now, okay gotcha. And so. Pretty much like round is latest record is is. About finding that. It's fighting. It's fighting the. Communist state meddling with the affairs of other nations and other in other free people around it. It's it's fighting their intolerance to. Basically to social change the into. Its fighting a second culture revolution is what is. I. Don't WanNa. See that happen again, nobody does and all of the all of the. kind of liberal minded youth the youth of the underground here they're all afraid to. Me But people are kind of complacent right now because. You know yes. If they say it's a communist society, but honestly man is the most capitalist place I've ever seen in my life. I how how is that? Like an example would be? Will be what? Development I mean the free enterprise everyone is everyone is concerned with the dollar out here. This is. China basically took itself out of poverty in in the time span of about. Ten years. and. Now, the lower classes very it's A huge middle class upper middle class. So everybody's could place. Everyone's got food. Rice in their bowls. Everything's okay. So they're willing to sacrifice some their personal liberties date. Ads on Kong is not Kong is totally different story on as far as I'm concerned. Not China. It's just. Complete, opposite of Shanghai. In in terms of the urban. Feel, it's very similar. The topography is different of course, mountains and stuff Pity, the culture, the way that people interact. The arch that developed there the trash literature, it's you could definitely feel different. And young two years ago, right? Right yeah. It's just. It's just really fascinating to hear about all this. So I hope you don't mind me asking about it. So. Let's get back to the album though honestly when when I got sent. Your press page to me from Melanie and I I started listening to the culture shock treatment album. I'm like I've never heard anything like this like all these different elements you know of of punk rock but also like other genres is just GonNa. Like Mishmash together like I. Just I don't even know how to I don't know how to describe it, and so that's actually kind of intrigue me to to want to talk to you to to figure out like how how do you get all those different pieces to fit in with with this album. Really. Crashes. But. I don't know I mean. We all have a lot like everyone in the band is extremely despaired. Influences was not like. Everyone in the band listens to romance. They don't. You know it's it's very, very, very eclectic and I think that's what makes it work. And it's also with every one of our recordings. It's also extremely rooted in American Americana like. Fifties and sixties big. Hits the Saxophone. Yeah. There is a common grounder with the with the sound but yet. Sometimes, we play fast and times we play slows wishing about girls. Aging thing. So when so when you got to Shanghai, how did round I? Come together once you got there did you did you just happen to stumble across the other members in the scene or did you know any of them before going to China or? On I've formed the band just simply to finish the record that Libyan had not finished before I left and it was a collaboration had with Greg, Ginn of black. Light. And at the time getting a super super reclusive, the new flags hadn't come out yet nobody really knew what he was doing and we've we played with them Libyan played with him. On. His Florida leg of his. Tail Jamming tour the Taylor Texas. So we got to be really good friends with them and every time we went through Texas, we'd hang out with them. And I wanted to finish the record. I didn't want it to shell the I wanted to show off in. You know just have it out there and in order to do that, I had to form and Shanghai to finish it. And when I finally formed the band, they were introduced by Chinese friends and we all met at this bar that we all frequented. Called internal and. Once, you start getting into studio listening to the songs. In finishing I started realizing very quickly. That is the sound was totally different than what living doing decided to just have it as a split Split L. P.. So. The you know the book ended the end of living in the beginning of grounder. Okay Wow I. Is, is that each other? Very naturally? It was like Oh, yeah I know this guy who plays drums and? All of my Chinese friends introduced me to all these other guys and they all figured that I wanted to play with a foreign. They didn't show me any Chinese musicians. That's funny. So. What is the music scene like in Shanghai? Right, now is probably the best seen in the whole world because we can actually play when you guys can't. True. But normally normal situation it's actually kind of quiet man. City has twenty, four million people in it and as less than five rock bars you know. So punk rock and roll. That's minority music here. It's not. It's not the it's not the popular one postponed post rock Indian HIP hop. Those are the big ones heavy metal. That makes. So I I mean. Compared to a lot of the things that I've seen thus far in my time this is kind of a quiet. Okay. Gotcha Yeah I. I've always heard I've always heard great things about Japan. But I've never heard too much about China and how Japan the benefit that Japan had it. Japan's fantastic. It's awesome. They had the advantage of being culturally opened since right after the World War Two and they kind of re-genesis of rock and roll was. Kinda. Parallel with America's because of you know the soldiers stationed over there they're listening to. Radio stations hip to everything that was going on in the fifties in. The advent of punk in the seventies. Japan had their fans in the seventy s now pray the. Beginning they kind of followed suit. But China's really open up until late eighties. Mid Eighties their first western Dan Beer, the first Western performance was by. WHAM. Really. Wow, that was the first Western show for artists. That's wild. So. I guess you could say it's almost like it's a little bit. Behind or it's. Just it's just a little different than Japan since Japan opened up so much earlier and not only behind it's still under communist rule. So they can't agree with their art Gaddi radical with music. Have you known anyone to put out Some type of music release only to have it hold because something. To bands in particular. SNCB or very, very, very notorious in this country, they've been added for about twenty five years and way always had a political bent against. Nationals. He's always been against. The, Communist. So they're always I, mean, there's Probably, a whole book of songs that are just blacklisted out here and performances, but there's still widely regarded. And top four circus. Those guys. You know they were getting naked on stage and being crazy, and then eventually he just became sort of A. Reality Show folk rock celebrity in this town. So we kind of lost his balls a little bit, but it did happen. And then in Beijing Beijing had their own to Beijing for a little while. Pretty Edgy music like with hang on the box being they were the first. Of. All girl band to the all girl Chinese vanity featured on the cover of Newsweek. Late. Night. Wow that's a big deal there. There were flashes here and there. and. So Culture. Shock. treatment. was just released last month. July third when it came out and it was put out on paper and plastic, which is really funny because I just talked to Vinnie. Fiorello about his new project the inevitable. Earlier this week. So it's Kinda funny how talk to him, and then I talked to abandon his label. It's kind of funny how Can funny how that rolls out? Yeah. Man. Yeah he's. He's a super awesome guy. I've just always been intrigued by his his creative thought process and. And the bands that are on his label as well. So I feel like this is. You know paper and plastic is such a perfect fit for you guys just because you have such uniqueness with with the style of of punk that you have. So. You get. Have you gotten involved in any way? To try and. Stir things up in in China like how do people try to calm you know combat combat the the communist state. Fans like PK fourteen. They have very veiled messages with their music. is nothing to direct but there are. Massive, you know I gotTa tell you that right from the start no big movement I mean. You know. Remember Tiananmen. Square did happen. Right, Just basically they do with the can with their visual arts. It's very risky to do or a mandarin punk band to sing in Mandarin I. think that's why we get away with a lot out here because they were foreigners and be receiving it in language centers. Really. Okay that makes sense that makes sense. was a lot of the Chinese vans for some reason they sing in English. Never really quite understood that. Venice interesting I never would have never would have guessed that it's really weird and it's like super broken English but it's still English. Me I don't know if I can answer that question and say that. The scene is a whole has really tried to fight against it. because. The backlash would be so severe, right? Yeah. has happened has happened bands like there's a band called Google they were going in. The late nineties, early Millennia, and these guys were vicious with the government like videos depicting. The president at the time getting decapitated and really really harsh harsh noise criticism the. Government and they they had a you know they were on a vessel in Taiwan. They said a big message. Being in right and all this crap. and. Then on their way back, they got calls from their families. Saint do not come back from China. The officials are here, and if you come back, you will be arrested. So one of the guys just decided. User, refugee just left. Just went to Sweden. Combat Yeah. So that was the end of. Yeah, that's that's pretty it's pretty survey does happen from time to time yeah. What? Do you do you miss the US at all or are you like completely where you're at? Almost cheese I really miss. No chance. Thing. I mean they have cheese but it's not like cheese. Now like our cheese, I get you. Implicit get get. Get enough whenever we go on tour and we go onto it for long periods of time. So I get my fix it come back I think the only thing really that I missed about the states from friends and family but a sure in terms of a lifestyle numb I've been away for so long that I'm just completely used to this. Yeah I mean it really is such a different world you now especially since you're actually in a city and you're not unlike a rural part of China. It's just so you know. I guess even if you are in a city in the US, it's still so different. You know it is. So it is. Yeah. All Right, institutionalized so Yeah. I. Mean. You said what? It's been ten years now. So that's that's a long time. Well I. Don't WanNa take up anymore your time because I. Know You gotTa head to a show so. But who are you seeing tonight? What kind of show you go into? Going to a buddy of mine the band is called Matt. The band's called foster parents and it's their last show. So it's a it's a great model. So they're just calling it quits. Of them's moving, which is very common with foreigners. They just move out of the area out of the out of the country they contracts end a finder love of their life year get married. Then fuck off you know they don't a lot of raised families here. Just move. The AH. Why he's doing now kind of a bad time to do that but. Hey you know to each his own. Hope it's good farewell show for them. And I mean anything else you. WanNa say about round I or. Culture Shock Treatment before we go. Produced by Mike, watt a lovely ankle Mike Watt and We can find it on paper and plastic most Oh yeah. The physical release of the album about. October. Okay Physical release wasn't okay. I. Did not realize that. Okay. Only digital. Eventual. Okay great awesome man. Have to get my hands on some of that. Or were you in the states exactly your nearest. Fifty miles south of Chicago. Oil. Next time we're in the area I'll give you a Holler. Yeah. Please do man that'd be great. I mean, that's probably going to. Be. It'll be a little bit but yeah, man let me know we can actually like is the essence of this podcast since it's called pop pumpkin pizza usually. Pre pandemic I would literally meet with most people in person and we would sit down eat pizza and talk about you know music so that was that's why the show is called what it is but right now it's like I've had virtual you know eatings but. Mostly it's just been talking and no pizza. So Which is why? I it does but I'm I'm glad. I'm still just able to. Talk to people especially like you. This is cool like literally you're the first person I've ever talked to first person and a band from China and it's just it's really fascinating to hear. About General. Pleasure for me to then I'm glad to hear it so. But yeah good luck with. The show or to the show tonight have fun and. Good luck with everything with with round I and please keep in touch. And we'll be looking for that that vinyl coming out in October. Okay brother thanks a lot man and yeah. Thank you. Mask okay. We're the mask. Yes I always. Do you too man. Thank you. For being on the show today was really fascinating to talk to you about Shanghai and China as a whole and what it's like being punk band in a communist state I still can wrap my head around some of those things he was telling me about how their government works but I'm glad that Chachi could give us some of his time today to educate us or at least educate me because as you heard me say to them. There's a lot of things I just I don't know about China and their government. So it was fascinating to learn some of those things. Now, if you WANNA get more on round I, you can go to round I band dot. com, and that's also the. Handle they use for all their social media pages. So facebook and instagram and band campy. Then everything is around I band and as he said, the physical release of culture shock treatment is not available until next month and October but it is available everywhere for streaming. So you can find it on spotify ample music, etc just. Search around and culture shock treatment will come up there for you. So give that record listen I've listened to it probably three or four times already it's just I've never heard anything like it before and I absolutely love the fact that it has such a unique sound so I guarantee you'll like it yourself. So that's it for this episode of Pop Punk, Pizza, I am Jacques l'amour, your host. Thank you so much again for downloading this podcast because there's a trillion podcast that you could be listening. To right now, on the fact that you chose this one, I am truly grateful for make sure you follow us on social media as well. facebook twitter and Instagram were all at pop punk pizza pod I'm on twitter at on air with J. L., and if you're in a band, you want your music played on the show or you want to try to get an interview whatever it is. You're a band you're a publicist you're a manager what whoever you are. You can send me an email at. Radio G MAIL DOT COM, just shoot me as much information about your band or your client as possible press pages EP ks all that fun stuff links to your music spotify preferred because I do have spotify premium. So it's just easy for me to pull up spotify and listen to your band real quick gum or youtube. That's fine as well. But to Banger Ring Radio G MAIL DOT COM. If you WANNA, hit me up there also a good place to hit me up if you have any questions or anything like that as well. and. Then are merged store. If you can buy something to help support the podcast, go to bang radio DOT COM forward slash merch and make sure use that Promo code pop punk at checkout because they'll get two dollars off your order. We do have plenty of hoodies available right now for you to choose from because fall is coming here and a USO it's going to be getting cold then you'll be wanting a Hoodie to keep you warm right. So banger ring radio DOT, com forward slash merch to See what we got. We have obviously a lot more than hoodies, t shirts, face masks, coffee mugs, etc. So anchorage you to check that out as well as round. So have a great rest of the day. Now I have another episode coming your way in just a couple days it's going to be our ten songs for September episode. If you've never heard of my ten songs episode, it's literally. Just an episode where I play ten songs that I that I think you should check out that month and in correlation with the pop punk in Pizza podcast playlist. At the beginning of each month so that episode is going to be released September third on angering radio DOT, com and wherever it is that you listen to podcasts. So if you subscribed on Apple PODCASTS, you'll get a notification on Thursday the third September third that you've got a ten songs for September twenty, twenty episodes. So I'm looking forward for you to hear the list I put together this month because it's once again. It's going to be hard to choose which is my. Favorite month of a playlist because this one's just chuck full once again of amazing songs that either I stumbled across or songs that were submitted to me so. I will talk to you on September third until then take good care of yourself. Beans and. was. Lies. Is.
Episode #3: How to Sue China for COVID-19, Funerals in an Era of Social Distancing, and China Battles with Thailand... Online
"All, right welcome to episode, three of the PR and Law podcast I'm. Your host can make merchant with. Lawyer you Christie Hello Cam, how you doing all right not bad and good to have you back on. I am a PR guy based in Hong Kong and publisher of the Digital Bits PR and communications newsletter at digital bits. PR, DOT COM and UN practices law at done troon. LLP in Toronto Canada at Troon. LLP DOT law. Okay, just a couple of things to to deal with before we get into the show this week I'm if you enjoy the podcast, please tell a friend. It's literally kind of the only way we have to get word out that we're that we're doing this show in that. We're providing information for PR and legal people and just other professionals. You know some of the issues that we're talking about. And we're also on social media linked in twitter, instagram and facebook across all of those accounts. We are at P. R., LAW PODCAST, PR. Law podcast. You can find us on any of those four channels, and if you'd like to support us, we would really appreciate that as well. You can find this on Patriots on. You can go to our show website at PR LAW PODCAST DOT COM and click support show all right doc. What's going on well, if whether it's finally starting to get warmer here in the great white? North Cameron that's always always exciting Of course, the springtime is a little bit different here than normal given all of our. Social social distancing rules but you know I gotta say. was a little frustrated this week. In that, there are a lot of people out there who do not seem to be particularly conscious of what's going on and ensuring that they are practicing social distancing or wearing masks. You know I was at my I was at the Saint, Lawrence Market yesterday. Lawrence market is a huge huge market and I think national. Geographic voted at the best. Marketing all of North America. It's one of the best in the world and I was shocked when I went in I, was going to visit my butcher. And what have you? Nobody was wearing? Ask or at least very few people were and few people were practising social distancing rules that have been imposed by by the province, and I then came home to find out that there was a a rally down had at Queens. Park or the the provincial government sits. And you know a lot of these divisionals talking about like you know, we need to be free and I need to get my haircut Our premier came on television and. Called them a bunch of Yahoos and frankly. Yahoos Yahoos Yeah Okay Yeah. But you know I got to agree. This stuff is really really frustrating to see. It's like it only works when everybody gets involved in Toronto is a huge city where you know the fourth largest city in North America. We need everybody to be on board here. Because if we only have a you know a certain segment of the population that are listening and observing these rules and the whole. The whole thing collapses, I agree. Let me dive in I. Want to get back to that own. Because that drives me insane, but let's do a quick update. Like are hip hop Kovic music here. All right so just a couple of things I'm going to pass it over to you in a second year to cover up North America, but obviously cove in nineteen is still a huge issue. The death toll grew three to four percent per day globally over the last ten days, so there are a lot of people dying from this. There's no two point nine million cases of covid nineteen. With two hundred thousand deaths just over two hundred thousand deaths. And taking a look at Asia in Hong Kong. We've been doing well today. We had zero new cases and several of the last seven days. We've had zero new cases. So. Obviously people are feeling quite good here, but one city that is having a horrible time with it is Singapore and when the first wave came around in January February, Singapore was held up as a model along with Taiwan and a few other places for doing such a good job, but in the last seven days Singapore had nine hundred and thirty one new cases, and they're up to thirteen thousand, which is really remarkable because. It was about six million people living in Singapore but it's similar. Hong Kong, but these two cities have gone in completely different directions. In this in the last month or so? So. What's happening there? You and Toronto and you're right. That drives me crazy. Because I said this before. If people don't want to wear masks, then fine. Don't go out but you. Do go out. You have to do this for other people. It's not you. I I don't care if people think that it's fine that covert nineteen. Just the flu. Whatever I think they're wrong, but they're entitled to think that, but don't put other people in harm's way. Absolutely absolutely you know another thing that's sort of interesting where where I live I, live in would be better known as little Bangladesh. It's very very multicultural neighborhood. kind of a a quickly gentrifying neighborhood, but very very multicultural in diverse and I went to my local grocery store a couple of days ago, and what was interesting was that most people were very very respectful of the rules. Most people were wearing masks. They were practising social distancing. And yet you know yesterday's I was telling you when I went down to the saint. Lawrence market which you know, the the price point is certainly. Much higher it is generally speaking more kind of upper middle class clientele that that shop there and yet you don't see the majority of people wearing wearing masks, and that's also frustrating, too, because it's sort of sort of implies at least anecdotally that Y- There's still this segment of the population that feels some sense of entitlement and I think it's that that sense of entitlement that is what really really frustrates me somehow that they don't think that they're part of the problem, and therefore they don't need to be part of the solution while I. Mean That's just ludicrous. As we've seen, you know Cova doesn't discriminate it will. It can harm. and we've got to be. We all have to be collectively conscious that and get involved practice social distancing and where your masks please where your masks you know. and we talked about this a little bit before, but. And I know my dad listens to this podcast so sorry dad before I even go into this, but. You know there. There's a lot of people that I come across in North America. Not here who just think that this is somehow a surreptitious you know power grab by governments who want to control people and begin you know controlling social life, and the way people interact, and that this is all sort of some big scam, and you know how how can people be so foolish to give up their their liberties and their freedom so easily and I? Don't understand this of thought at all and I don't know I. Mean this is what's going on in the US to. There were a lot of protests last weekend about. Wanting to be let out some great signs and stuff by the way. From some of those rallies, but I mean governments don't want this at all. They would love to have people out at businesses I mean we know that you know whether it's state governors or provincial premiers or or or higher levels of government? It's mostly. is mostly dependent on economic performance, and this virus has been a disaster for economies. That's not good for governments. It's not good for elected officials so this is not something they're enjoying. This is not something they want. It's something they wanna get rid of as quickly as possible, so we can go back to work so I don't quite. I think this conspiracy theory stuff, which has always sort of been on the fringes, especially in the US it's just become so mainstream and it's just I. I getting so tired of it now. Just the incentives don't even align in this case. There's no point I. Don't understand I don't want to see what the government would be benefiting from. This sort of situation. Yeah, no, I completely agree, I. Mean you know in -Tario has a conservative premier who ran on a very populist platform? And I thought it was interesting when you have. When you have our premier standing up referring to these individuals who are out there protesting you know a bunch a bunch of Yahoos. then I think that's really indicative of what's going on in. His argument is exactly the argument that you just summed up? Nobody wants this. This isn't good for anyone, and it certainly isn't good for the economy, but that the only way we can ensure. Ensure that we're we're back to some semblance of normal is when everybody observes the rules and and practices social distancing. It's not gonNA work if only a segment of the population does, and that's just going to stretch out the period of time that we're all staying home, and that the overall economy is is compromised and to that point you know I wanted to just briefly anyway run over. Some of the numbers because again. You know as we talked about last week, they they continue to be just staggering statistics around this stuff, so we we've had so far seven point one million Canadians that have applied for some form of a financial aid which puts our unemployment rate at seven point, eight percents, and that number is somewhat misleading, because that was the number that was of put forth before the. The Canadian emergency response benefit was made available so I suspect that number going to jump in the US. We saw another four point four million Americans file for unemployment benefits last week, so that that brings the total in the US to twenty six point, five million claims in five weeks, and that translates soon unemployment rate of almost twenty one percent or the you know the highest level since nineteen thirty four. Interestingly from a more global perspective, the the IMF I mean, it's now forecasting that the pandemic will shrink global GDP by three percents, also the largest annual drop we've seen since the Great Depression, but a camera where this gets really interesting when you sort of you start to break down. The numbers you know there's been a lot of sort of really incredible on astounding statistics that people been been quoting through this whole thing, but I think one of one of the craziest ones that I've seen. Is that in the first quarter? Of the COVID THE COVA outbreak. China's GDP dropped almost seven percent in the first quarter. That's the first quarterly contraction on record for the modern economy I know that that's a staggering number, but it's also I feel like it's also obvious I mean If this was this is not a normal contraction I. Think you know if there was a big contraction over the course of normal? Economic operations it would be a little more notable, but I think you know when you look at China in January especially in February and into march, the entire country was shut down. And when you consider the size of the economy, their you know in some measurements, it's already larger than the United States and the amount of manufacturing down there I mean I. Seven percent doesn't really surprise me when when when you look at it that way Yay. I wouldn't I wouldn't disagree you know I. Think it's to be expected. I think still a historical marking point it. It's still a pretty a pretty incredible statistic, but know I think what's arguably more. More significant you know and look I mean the the comparable number in the united. States is insane as well. I think you know. Goldman Sachs projected that the US GDP will shrink by thirty four percent in the second quarter. But you know what's really really interesting about these numbers is. Where where this goes over the long term, what are the what are what are going to be? The the implications in terms of the broader globalized market and international trade trade agreements. One of the things I thought was was. Kinda crazy and I I wasn't aware of this, but you know prior to the covert outbreak, China apparently counted for for fifty percent of the world's masks supply. And since the outbreak that production has increased twelvefold, they're producing approximately one hundred fifteen million masks a day but of course they're keeping most of them. We you saw in the news a little while back. The US issued a similar edict with regard to three M in its production of the the end ninety five masks effectively stating that they had to stay domestic. And you know. A lot of countries particularly. Western western nations have relied on cheap goods coming in from markets like China particularly medical supplies, and there's going to be a shift in in the way that we think. And we approached the production of goods and I think we're GONNA. Continue to see. An increase of domestic goods that we would typically rely on to import from from other countries. I think we're GONNA see that shift, and that could have really really interesting implications and consequences in terms of labor markets, globally, labor markets domestically, and I'm very curious to see where this all goes all right, really quickly, on the top I had mentioned Singapore had nine hundred and thirty one new cases over the last seven days a correction that is nine hundred and thirty one new cases today, which is Sunday in Asia so that that's a I mean almost a thousand new kate. As it's a huge problem problem. There I'm to the point that that that you. You were making You know I was going to save this for the end of the show because we are going to introduce a little recommendations section towards the end and one of the items I had today was actually maybe one of the only times. I'll ever mentioned a Fox News interview, but I mean this. This circulated quite widely among China. Affiliated people on twitter, and it's Tucker Carlson interview with You know a Mackenzie veteran and the person had worked at McKinsey for thirty four years or something, or maybe it was more than that so a very long time and kind of had a front row seat on sort of the the the the outsourcing of manufacturing. And other industry overseas you know primarily China and Tucker actually mentioned this point, and he asks him directly to feel responsible for this. You know the fact that you know. Americans don't have enough. They don't have enough masks know in some cases. They don't even have enough medicine. And these are things that were outsourced to China over the last twenty years and I think you're right I think you know the the attack on globalization really began in earnest with the election of Donald Trump. I mean he he looks at. You. Know global trade. In kind of a mercantilist way, but I think. There were some skeptics at the beginning, but it's interesting now like some some of the criticism of global trade has become bipartisan in the United States I. Think I think you know Republicans and Democrats. Both both feel that it's time to confront China on trade issues and I think when you see you know this outbreak happen it's just putting more juice behind that argument, and it's just making more people come around to realize that there are national security considerations to global trade. It's not just about finding you know the cheapest factory in the poorest country. It really is about securing these these These materials for instances like this. I mean one instance that having a while ago to just rare earth minerals. I think you've heard about those they're used in. In a lot of technology products, but I mean most of the rare earths now are in China and a few years ago. China was sort of playing politics and saying they work at export. Those in Melt meant that Japanese companies couldn't make phones and cameras and televisions and things like that, so these are really serious issues and I. Think you're absolutely right. They're going to be moved. To a priority placement as as companies come back from this began rethinking their supply chains. Yeah, and I and I think it's you know there's been a bit of a a a trickle down effect where this was. This was predominantly the domain of of CEOS and government legislature legislators, but you know thinking of conscious of one particular image that was circulated quite widely in the Canadian Press, and that was an image of a huge plane, returning from China, and it was, it had traveled to China specifically for the purpose of picking up masks to bring back to circulate to frontline workers. Is that the New England patriots plane. They actually came they. May Have Been. Yeah Robert Kraft the owner of the Patriots. This is related to the company. I work for in fact He needed to secure additional masks and pb from China and you know I mean right now. It's very difficult to to move back and forth because of all the travel restrictions. So Robert Kraft use the New England patriots plane to fly to Shenzhen. where it was, it was given clearance to land for two hours, and the plane was loaded up with with P., or just with masks, actually no P, and immediately flew back to Boston so there there've been several cases of of of things like that. Because yeah China's wear. The masks come from well well this. Yeah, this is this was a different than this was clearly a different plane. This plane that was was chartered from Canada. To China to to to load up with masks and there is this image. When the plane landed back in Canada and it was empty, there were there were no masks it came back. It came back with next to nothing in that image was circulated widely across the country and I think that was interesting, because for a lot of you know a lot of Lehman, perhaps that aren't aren't necessarily inclined to follow the the political implications of. Of of these issues or or global trade would of course, anyone can relate to is well I need a mask for myself and I need a mask for my family and I WanNa make sure that the doctors that are that are helping people in the nurses that are helping people on the front lines that they have masks. And why do we have planes coming back empty with with with nothing? And why is it that we're reliant? Upon a foreign market for all of our all of the domestic domestic masks so I think know you've got people thinking about these issues in a way that they weren't thinking about them before. Okay, in the in the case you're talking about actually candidate did secure the masks and they did secure shipment. But quality wise. They fell short in testing in quality control, so Canada had gone there. They had got them. They ran them through tests and they failed, and that's why that's why the plane was empty. So those are those are concerns to China has been criticized for providing I. IT happened in the in Europe as well. There were a lot of masks and P.. E. Sent to Europe that ended up sort of failing quality quality requirements. And I mean that's sort of an offshoot of what you're talking about as well. It's just that I mean there. There are a lot of high quality mass being made in China, but you do have to do your due diligence and I. Think Canada's got caught a little bit on that one. Anyway. I. You know I am noticing here in Hong. Kong we. Where everyone's back to work, so you know I'm going to the office. It's now two weeks I've been going in the office. you know subway system here, which is the MTR? It's full. Crowded streets are crowded everything's open malls. It's it's not one hundred percent what it was before the virus, but during the week it's busy I mean they. Restaurants are packed I was in toy while the other day and Every table was taken. So. We're back at that level. And you're still seeing no. No new cases day by day, so it's a really good sign. I think four elsewhere. If you know if you can keep the really strict guidelines on on masks and social distancing, and you can hold it for about two months you can. You can end up in a good in a good place, but I think Singapore you know like we talked about that. That's the that's the case. That's the opposite. They were doing well. It can look like you're. You're over it and then end up with being one of the hardest hit countries in the world. So that's another another thing we can't. We can't really I don't think there's ever going to be going back to exactly the way it was before I. Think too much has happened I. Think people are going to be wary of shaking hands, and you know being around people with with with colds or the flu. I think mask wearing is going to become a lot more common. I think a lot of people that will not wear masks. No matter what, but I think we're GONNA. See more of them in more countries as a result of this, too. And you know another sign of life. In, the US, a big a big deal was the NFL draft. You know it's interesting because you know obviously all the sports leagues are shut down, which is a problem because sports broadway. Music Movies tell these are all escapes from daily life, and so you know in a case like sports, it's one one one less thing to kind of distract you from all of the negative news related to the virus, but you know. The NFL managed to hold its draft. You know with people at home I, mean the commissioner of the NFL was at home. the various teams were were were broadcasting from their own. You know the homes of the of the general managers and coaches, and there's quite a production you know I think in in years. Many years into the future. We're going to look back at twenty twenty and just think like. Wow, what was what was going on that? Look? Look at the stuff there. And you know how we manage to hold these kinds of events. It's kind of amazing absolutely, but I mean, it also shows that there's no reason why that can't be done. I understand that it's You know it's it's not ideal. It's not optimal part of the excitement is you know you can of cut to that? That player that wasn't drafted. Those expected to be. Be drafted in the first round a I get that, but it's not like we can structure these events remotely in I i. You know, raise a great point I think this is going to fundamentally alter the way that sports is broadcast going forward, and possibly the way that it's played at the professional level as well you know, and just anecdote from me. I mean I I I wasn't using video chat or even. Just you know online conferencing software very often you in my career, you know obviously I've had to have zoom meetings over the years or You know or skype or or or Cisco webex kind of kind of kind of meetings. But you know the company I'm working now is a global company, and so we have offices in the United States and In. Malaysia and many other places, so you know keeping in touch with their means a lot more a lot more online conversations. But then you had covert into it as well and so you know virtually every conversation. We have internally is is over one of these networks and know for me. It's just it's becomes so second nature already you know like previously. It would be okay like maybe we'll have a call later this week at four PM to five PM. Let's book everyone's count. You know now it really is just. Hey, you have time, talk this. Yes, does this person yes okay? Let's jump on a call and you know we're all on and we're connected via via one of these software software programs, so I think that that's something that has changed. It's just become so much easier to to connect and to talk and I think there will be an impact on travel to some degree. There is one APP that was released and I wish I could remember the name I'll try and put it in the show notes, but it replicates the idea of going to a conference so if you know if you go to. Some sort of a seminar conference multiday event I mean obviously there's there's coffee breaks and there's lunches and they're sort of networking afterwards, and there's cocktails and all of these opportunities to into people, and to talk to them and introduce yourself, which is very very hard to replicate online. But. There is one company and I wish I had the name of it. I'M GONNA. Try and find it. That has managed to do that and they have. They have become a huge very quickly. and I have not tried it, but apparently it replicates some of that. You can bump into people. You can quickly chat. With strangers without making an appointment to to meet somebody so I think a lot of this is showing companies governments. You know a lot of us that. A lot can be done online you know, and I'm in favor of doing things in person. I like meeting people. You know I like I like going out, but it's much better than I think. People thought it was online, and it can do a much better job than than we anticipated. Yeah, absolutely, it's interesting. I was having a chat with one of my colleagues the other day. Who He you know, he conducted a mediation virtually and mediations are a really really interesting aspect of of the legal process, and they're sort of. Their sort of conducted a little bit differently. Depending on where you are you know in in the Employment Bar, most of and frankly most. Areas of law with within Canada. The process is you know you have? Lawyer and lawyers client in one room. Opposing counsel and their clients in another. In then you have the mediator who goes in between rooms, you go back and forth, and you effectively trying negotiate, grind out a settlement, and of course it's important to to be in to be present and be. Persons can sort of see how the mediator reacts. You can interpret hand movements, gestures, eye, contact those sorts of things, but you know my colleague was saying. Saying that he didn't really notice that big of a big of a loss. He was really concerned about it but he said you know it wasn't really that big of a it actually was kind of cool. It was kind of NEAT. You know you. Can you sign into a separate room that you have just with the mediator and you have a separate room. Room with your client you can have breakout rooms and he. He said that it was really really cool. And perhaps you know a sign of a sign of things to come, and he's not the only one that I've heard that from I've heard that from a number of of lawyers that I keep in touch with who have conducted virtual mediations virtual examinations for discovery. Discovery and they all said that. Yeah, you know what it actually. It wasn't that bad. It wasn't that big of a deal. Okay, this is a nice little segue. We're talking about law and I know. There is one particular thing that you wanted to talk about today and I believe it has to do with China which is convenient for me because it's next door. So have got. Yeah I've I've been reading a lot of articles as I'm sure you have over the past couple of weeks, about the prospect of companies suing China for effectively dropping the ball, and failing to to advise foreign nations of of the implications of covid of the threat. and. Health consequences of Co Vid, and you know I think. It's important that people sort of understand where where we're at with that because you know. I I I've been speaking with some people say oh well. Hey, you know we'll. These companies can just turn around and sue China for this or everybody should sue China's like well. It's not really as simple as that. Yeah, and I want to ask about that like if if I mean you're the lawyer I'm definitely not a lawyer. How you know if I feel wronged if my business. Had to get shut down, or if I lost my job in future earnings, as a result of this or I mean I'm not even sure what what classifies is something that you could take to court I mean how how how would how would a company or a business or a government goal bought this? Well, it's a really good question and this is this is not something that typically falls within my bailiwick, so you know he's but I spent some time doing doing some some legal research around the issues in the particular statutes, and it was, it was very enlightening very very interesting so You know there's there's this doctrine called the doctrine of of sovereign immunity in the US. They have the the foreign sovereign immunities so this. This was an act. I won't I won't bore you with all the details, but he was an act that was that was passed in In Nineteen, seventy six candidate has has a similar act called the the state immunity. Act and these statutes were effectively passed to protect foreign sovereigns from the burden of litigation, including cost and aggravation of discovery et Cetera et Cetera in in foreign countries in the whole idea. is based on this notion of sovereign reciprocity, so you can't sue us and we can't sue you and it makes perfect sense, because frankly if we if we lived in an international legal community where every country could sue every other country every time they had some sort of dispute. I mean the the whole thing. The whole system which is completely collapse. It's just not practical But that said you know if a control of company turns out to be private. Then, the sovereign immunity defense doesn't apply and Cana's legislation has a similar commercial activity exception, so all of these lawsuits They're all arguing that they fall within this particular statutory exemption to immunity on the basis of commercial activity. How many lawsuits are there? Well I mean that that I'm aware of at least in in the US there's there's been six six large ones that have been reported on. And most of them are proceeding as as class actions, so you know large large claims where you've got multiple plaintiffs. So. What are they claiming like? What what is there? What is there are like wh? What's their justification? Well Yeah, good question I mean one of the one of the actions that was filed in the state of Florida. They're suing China for for negligence for negligent infliction of mental and emotional distress, intentional infliction of emotional distress. any you know. They're effectively alleging that. China and other defendants because I mean it's. It's crazy this. I, I was looking at the statement of claim, and they are suing the People's Republic of China including the National Health Commission the Ministry of Emergency Management the Ministry of Civil, affairs you name the ministry? There named there named in the claim and they're alleging that these defendants. They knew they knew that. That covert nineteen was dangerous and that it was capable of causing a pandemic yet they slowly acted They proverbially put their head in the sand, and that's actually language from the from the claim, we can provide a link to it in the in the show, notes and or they covered it up for their own economic self interest, so those are the allegations. so really really interesting stuff. But. Where's that going? GonNa get you and you know I think and I mean I'm no expert on this point, but I've certainly been reading on on some of the lawyers who are experts on this and the CAN general consensus seems to be. That the litigation will fail based on the doctrine of sovereign immunity ISSUE STORY INTO OFF. Wasn't this an issue with nine eleven as well because there was talk of suing Saudi Arabia. You know for sort of harboring terrorists. I can't remember what happened as a result of that I. Know there for a while there. They couldn't, but then I thought eventually they could. Yeah, and again I I I'm not I'm not familiar with what happened to sort of speak on it with any any form of authority, but you know I know that there. There is some some language in the legislation that speaks to acts of terrorism, but again I don't want to speak to sort of the implications of that because I'm just not familiar enough to comment on it. Okay, so I mean again as a layman, they're they're. They're suing China so how I mean. Does does the Chinese government get like a letter from a court in Florida and saying you know, we expect you to appear on such such a day or you know what what? What is the actual logistics of this? Good well. Yeah, good good question I mean well. Let's let's stick with the one example of the piece of litigation in in Florida so I mean. Yeah, they're suing within the state of Florida so they would go before a judge in Florida and trying to try and make their make their argument. Make their claim, but you know of course to your point. You know even if even if a court was to take the position that okay. Hey, you know this. This falls under the sort of the the commercial activity exemption and You know China can't be protected by by sovereign immunity, you know. How are you GonNa? How are you going to enforce the Judgment Right Exactly, TSA sent an email to somebody at the the PR see and say hey, you owe us. However, many millions or billions of billions of dollars, it's not it's not really practical practicable, but I think more importantly, and this is sort of. Sort of a bigger thing you know. Even if you were. Able to get to get a decision and to proceed on that basis, this could start you know a complete and utter. Because frankly if China, they could then take a similar position vis-a-vis the US. They could say okay. Great, so You're going to completely disregard the doctrine of sovereign immunity. So you know what we're GonNa do that as well and we're going to start filing claims against the US government or US companies that would typically be protected so. Nobody really wins if we go down this road. Yeah, yeah, and you know I. It does sound futile then I mean it just seems like a waste of time if it's. Set up this way and actually no way to compel China. To Take it seriously and I have no doubt that China would not take it seriously I mean I. Know that. A lot of our listeners are back in North America, but I mean from from from over on this side. I mean mainland China has been running very very slick propaganda campaign domestically. For, the last six to eight weeks that really is highlighting America's struggles with the corona virus the fact that hospitals don't have. The fact that they're short of masks the fact that there's so many deaths in the US, and they're pointing out that this is proof you know that the Chinese system is superior that they're able to look after their people much better and don't. They feel so much safer being in China instead of being overseas where? The rains! And this has been pushed day after day after day after day. So you know if I it looks like this virus started in China in or around Wuhan. That's what we know but there's been enough doubt sewed into this in terms of what the Chinese media has been saying. I think people will be aware of a foreign ministry spokesman China suggesting that it was The US brought the virus to Han as part of the. Military Games so I guess military's converge to to sort of do a mini Olympic style games, and in in twenty nineteen. It was held in Wuhan hand in September. So I mean that allegation was made by by the Chinese government with no evidence to support it, but when you take a look at muddying the waters that way as they did in China, and with the US is slow and somewhat poor response you know it is effective I think it really did effectively kind of shut down some of the anger that Chinese people did feel toward the Communist Party. But. It's really hard to say for sure because there are no independent. Polling of Chinese people. Right, so we we, we effectively have to take their word on it. Yeah I. Mean, but you can see stuff online. I mean it's I mean that part is effective because you can go up there and talk and talk to people as well. For the journalists that are still there anyway, I mean the good news There were a lot of foreign reporters in hand over the last week in fact, because the city opened up on the seventeenth I believe and people. Are you know even outside there now? But there is you know in some of the reports I was reading from there. There's still this sort of simmering kind of I if I call it anger, but there's a desire to know what happened. How did this happen? You know? Where did it come from WHO drop the ball? Why did it get so bad because you know we'll? Hand was really really under lockdown there for for quite a long time, and a lot of people died there as well so I think you know there's going to be questions for for quite a long time. Also looking at some of the comments by foreign governments I think China is going to face a lot of pressure when this is done, because there is a lot of anger at China for this and when you consider. I mean th. There were plenty of warnings in advance. Wet Markets in China and some of the exotic animals that were being sold their You know this isn't a new thing at all and. When you consider the economic impact, this has had globally I mean Dominic Robb in in in the British government UK government has already said there's GonNa be a reckoning with China when this is done, and there's been other similar comments as well and I think it's It's going to be tough. It's going to be ugly I think you know the days of global cooperation and and globalized trade and open borders. Those days are are really behind us now. I think there's no doubt about that. Yeah if I think you're I, think you're you're absolutely right. There's going to be. There's going to be a fundamental shift but I mean you know I. Look at the Canadian government hasn't really addressed how they're going to deal with this I mean our prime minister has been peppered with questions of. To Hold China accountable, or are you going to hold China accountable and the position thus far has been. Focused, on protecting our own population, getting us back to some semblance of of normal, and once that's said and done then we can focus our efforts on responsibility and taking proactive action, specifically against China and I think there's probably a lot of governments that are taking a. Similar position but then you look to the US I mean and again they might understandings that there's a now members of Congress that are have drafted legislation. In a specific attempt to remove China's sovereign immunity to serve a naval companies to go after the government and now i. Again. How successful is that going to be You know the the the articles that I've read and you know we can link to one in the show notes, which is a great article by a partner in the US who is a former legal adviser to the state? Department John Bellinger the third and he seems to take the position that you know this. This probably isn't GonNa go anywhere, but at least speaks to the general sentiment that governments and the population are very very very angry. at China with regard to what's what's transpired. I, there's some There is some sympathy I think in terms of I mean. These hinds of viruses have appeared in other places as well I. Mean in Japan in the Middle East and places like that. but the response I mean China's praised rightfully, so I think for its response as of about January twentieth. Through twenty third went when when you know, the government formerly announced the lockdown, and that this was an issue but between. X. Somebody will say it's in the end of November or sometime in December. When when when the virus I started really spreading quickly, there was valuable time lost their when nothing was done and the people that were speaking out such as Dr Lee went down. They, were ignored or forced to close their mouths because it was steamed a rumor by the government so that that lost time there has really really impacted everybody, and so we'll. We'll try to do the right thing you know as of late January. It absolutely did the wrong thing before them, and it should be held accountable for that. Yeah I'm with you. I do most people I. Think Yeah, I think so I. Do want to go into the PR item this week and because it is related to China and it's related to. Some of the nationalism that's going on there so I mean just a bit of background for people China has not been overly nationalistic in its history, there have been periods like the boxer rebellion where there has been a lot of anger at the outside world or at foreigners and things like that. But when you go through the Cultural Revolution I'm not going to give a history lesson on this podcast, but you know when you go through the Cultural Revolution of upheaval. There's a lot of poverty. There's a lot of struggling and into the nineteen eighty s in the eighties in China was opening up quite a bit, and that led tonight's ninety nine which resulted in that which we cannot name happening in Tiananmen Square that year but as a result of that The Chinese leadership decided. It's time to get people more patriotic. It's time to get them. You know a little more unified And you know patriotism or nationalism is effective way to do that as we've seen throughout history. and so the result now is I mean the I. If you navigate the Chinese Internet space like with seen away, boy. or we chat and those areas I mean you do see. A lot of a lot nationalism a lot of anger. Sometimes, there's a lot of anger at foreigners like there is right now in fact because of the virus spreading so much in the US You know there. There are many restaurants in Beijing that simply say no foreigners allowed and you can't go in there and Guangzhou which is in southern China near Hong Kong Ryan. There are places that won't allow black people inside, either. There's actually video circulated on twitter or black people try to walk into a shopping mall with with white people. They'll let the white people in and keep the black people vote. Because they believe that cove has been spreading in Africa and therefore these these people in Guangzhou or are our risks. And I should note that Guangzhou has a very large African. Community so I mean it's been a problem and a lot of the the console the consulates there have been trying to help out. Some of the some of the displaced Africans in the city, because many were actually kicked out of their apartments by the landlords as well. So I mean that's a huge story, but there is one instance where nationalism clashed with another country, and it's a bit of a crazy story. I know this did not get covered in the international media, so that's why I of wanted to bring this up, and we're not going to go through every detail here but it basically started over this. There's a TV soap, and it's called together, and it's popular in mainland China, so people like the show quite a bit and the male lead in that show. is a Thai a Thai national and his nickname is bright. So he's become quite well. Known bright is quite well known in mainland China as a result of the popularity of the show so bright actually has a girlfriend in real life, another Thai woman, and she goes by the name new N E W. And so the these guys are a couple, and it's kind of well known in the entertainment industry. You know the situation with with these two. But here's the problem. Bright recently re tweeted. Some photos taken by a professional photographer on twitter, and he just re tweeted them. But the photos were from multiple places in the world, and the caption was taken from four countries. You might already detect where this might go sideways. One. One of the images was of Hong Kong so. You know Hong Kong where I am now. I mean it does have a border around it has its own currency and its own laws and its own government. But. It's technically not a country. It is a special administrative region of the People's Republic of China. So. People in mainland China especially with the you know the protests here last year. They got upset about this. As, they do they've done this? You know with Taiwan Multiple Times as well. married I believe last year the year before listed Taiwan as a country and Chinese people called for an online boycott of Mariot. So anyway, naturally bright was criticized for this. Know and they told him in no uncertain terms that Hong Kong is. Of China and bright apologized for the offense. Now number to. The mainland Internet. Users dug up a photo of new his girlfriend. which she posted to instagram while she was in Taiwan. And? This is September of twenty seventeen, so they went back through both of their social media accounts and found this, and it's actually a photo going to send a link with with this breakdown in these actual social posts, you can take a look at it. And she's actually just in the photo by herself. She's staying in the middle of the road and brightly a comment there and just says so pretty just like Chinese girl. New Response with casual tie, and this is where some of the controversy has centered If you translate her remark, it's a one word remark. It translates as what. But actually in colloquial Thai people are telling us that it's more like writing Or just sort of an acknowledgment. Anyway mainland Chinese Internet, obviously put that phrase into their into their translators, and they found what. which they took as a slight against China, because if you read it that way. Bright says so pretty just like a Chinese girl. And she says what as if she sort of taking offense to the remark. So that was around to mainland nationalistic Internet users, kind of went nuts about that. Online and then number three mainland users dug up. A post re tweeted by knew. That said the corona virus had originated in China. Now some of said the retreat referred to the viruses the Wuhan virus. which obviously is a sensitive terminology? The Chinese people and many many people around the world reject. But again, the translation isn't quite clear. It could be that or could be something close to that. I mean as you know. Translating can sometimes be difficult if you're trying to trying to get. A direct meaning anyway. These three offenses basically resulted in hundreds of thousands of remarks on twitter of Chinese people really attacking these two. Online and you know it was very patriotic `nationalistic intone now here's the interesting part because. I think this really helps us understand sort of where China is at in terms of the communications, air, and the media and some of the. Messages that are shared with with tribespeople throat. Throw the day. Eventually people began attacking the Thai government, so they went after the government for for some of some of sins There were I. believe there was A. You know a large incident several decades ago, that Chinese people dug up and began blasting. Type people for for the poor performance of the government, and for for poor governance, and so on and so forth, but what's interesting about this is the ties and you've been there. You and many times as I have been. Of relaxed, it's a great country I mean they're known as the land of smiles, but once China Chinese people begin. Criticizing the government and the leadership in Thailand The Times jumped right in. They said Yeah I know it's ridiculous. Our government's horrible. But. This really confused some of the Chinese people. Because it's just something, they would never consider saying. It's I mean it's not. It's not not not permitted in China, but it's just. You know the Communist Party has done such a good job of fusing itself with Chinese identity in general, so if you criticize the Chinese government, it is like you're criticizing all of China and I. Think you know a good one thing I remember a good example of this in the nineties. I remember undersung. Kristian you know. People said that he had fused the Liberal Party with Canada and and he had done a good job of that, and it does work pays off. You know for the political party. That can do that so I think. The people were very confused why the ties just sort of agreed with them. And and also took potshots at their own government. And it did leave. Chinese people very perplexed as to how they could do this why they would do this and it was just so far outside of their own expectation. Of what of what people might say I mean? That's the biggest sort of tell about how the information ecosystem operates in China. And I think that kind of nationalism and patriotism and sort of the assumption that all other countries are exactly the same is something that has hurt companies in the past mentioned Marianne, there's many many others and I think it's still a risk for a lot of companies doing business in China that have to understand that this is. This is an environment that is very different. I mean we know other countries are can be patriotic or nationalistic to degree as well, but it's unique. How how how how it manifests itself in mainland China I, will say just as an addendum to this there were were some excellent memes flying back and forth really really hilarious. Once and I'm going to provide a link to actually a story I. wrote about this on my blog, so you can take a look and actually if you go on twitter and you Hashtag Hashtag n n, e, V v Y. So Double N. E. Double v why. That's actually news sort of tie name Hashtag so if you. If you put that into twitter, you'll see some just amazing. Amazing stuff going back and forth and one of the things that really came out of it because I mean once once once China's involved in sort of a conflict like this online naturally, Taiwan want to jump in and Hong Kong. People want to jump in because they're not happy with the Chinese government, either and so they have formed what they are calling the milk tea alliance. Three countries are three regions. I should say that all have milk. t the loved their Milk Tea Thailand, Taiwan and Hong, Kong and I think it's a beautiful alliance if you ask me. The Milk Tea Alliance Wow. I I love it. That's great. Yeah, if you haven't been to. Hong Kong, not something. It's hugely popular here. And it sort of made with condensed condensed milk I. Don't know it's an aunt drink, but. It. I'm at the point now where it's comfort food with me, I've been here long enough that there are days I crave it. But, Thailand has excellent milk tea as well. It is slightly different, and I guess you know time. Is Taiwan not similar I actually don't have had it. Yeah I mean it. Taiwanese milk tea is is fantastic you know especially the you know, the or the jasmine milk tea. It's really really nice, but of course you know. The bubble tea is very very very popular in Taiwan. For for those who may not be familiar with with bubble tea It's effectively. It's a milk tea, but with little sweet tapioca balls in its. Starring, it's very jarring experience the first time because you know you just want to have a habit, drink your and then you end up sort of chewing Kinda chewy tapioca balls while you're drinking, you're drinking your milky, but yes, hugely hugely popular in Taiwan well. You know I'm going off topic here. We're going off the rails, but the the big thing right now here. You and his cheese T. And it actually kind of started, or at least was made popular in mainland, China by this chain that is now hugely popular. It's called Hey. T actually came out a couple of years ago, but it is a young mainland guy believes in early twenties, and he founded this chain of tea spots they actually do not take cash. It's one of the one of the places in in China now. That doesn't accept cash as payment, so you have to order. Using the APP and it's kind of like A. Cheese and T and it sounds disgusting, but this cheese is a little bit more like cream cheese, and like a whip cream kind of cheese. I wouldn't call it cheese as a North American, but they do call it cheese there and actually it's amazingly good I. It's definitely not a healthy drink. If you're on a diet, you're not gonNA. WanNa, have it, but it has spread quickly I. Think he does the best. They're the ones that are known for, but a lot of the bubble tea shops and other places are doing their own sort of versions of this cheese. T and I think it's only a matter of time before you start seeing it back there and t dot and. okay well. I'll. I'll have to check out. I'm sure it's here and I. Just I. Just haven't haven't noticed but seeing seeing as we're going off the rails. I think we should give a shoutout. To, and this is a little. It's outside of the the milk tea alliance, but coconut coffee in Vietnam is. How is this not a thing back there? There I can't even remember the name of the coffee shop now I. Have to put this in the show. We're going GONNA have a big show today there is a there is a chain of starbucks like coffee shops, but it's a little bit more. Industrial than starbucks refined and I mean Vietnam busy, busy, hectic place, but yeah, they make coconut coffee, and it's made with a lot of coconut cream. It looks like and some coffee and some ice and a few other things go in there, but yeah. We were down there a few years ago and it and we tried it at the recommendation of Cabdriver, and after we had it every day thereafter, we stopped for it. It was a must and I believe. We almost went way out of our way. On the day, we had to go to the airport just to get a a final a final copy of it. Oh. It's amazing I mean and again to sort of. Sum Up what it is. It's basically it's a coffee Frappuccino, but instead of being made with milk, it's made with coconut cream. Do other things into it. I watched them. Make the base is coconut cream for sure? And then they put a shot of her to of Espresso and Vietnamese coffee, and there's a couple of things I go in there and I can't remember what it is now. It it, it's magic. If. You're a coffee drinker. It's it's just it's magic, and I'm I'm I'm. Desperately desperately waiting for it to make its way to Toronto Yeah. It's one of those things that it's just. It's GONNA to. It's going to go there something this good can't be. Can't be confined to the Vietnamese board inside the Vietnamese borders. Absolutely right okay? We are. Running out of time here, so there's a couple of things I just wanted to. Touch on one We do at the end of every show and we're just going to try this out I. Don't know if it's going to work, but we do WANNA if there's a couple of things that we came across in the week that we think might be interesting to our audience We want to mention them at the end of the show, just a couple of other resources that you might wanNA check out. I had two items down here and I kind of sprung it on you, and so it's fine. If doesn't have anything but. One I already mentioned, which was that the Tucker Carlson interview with the Mackenzie Person. I am no fan of Tucker Carlson, but I found. This was one of the first times I was kind of them on because I think I, think people like the person that he interviewed. And what he pushed over the last twenty years is why we are in this problem that we're in today. And I think people. His Ilk should be held responsible for that I think he said some the guy said he'd been to China's eighty times or something, and it's shocking because he had basic statistics wrong, and he could not pronounce Xinjiang the way he pronounced it was. Was I think he called it Chin-chang so I? Mean I I cannot believe that he has spent a lot of time in China. When you make that kind of mistake I know that sounds really sort of elitist of me, but if you spent time in China, you will know how to say the placenames. It's one of the first things that you would learn so highly skeptical. But the second thing I wanted to mention this was this came on as an accident, so the New York Times does a does a podcast called the daily and I mean like the name implies it comes up every day and you know the Times was late to this. You know. They jumped on podcast a little bit late, but right away. The daily has become one of the most popular shows out there, and it's not a. it's not a newscast. They really pick one subject and do a podcast on that one subject each day something that's in the news and I was actually listening to it for another reason, but when the podcast ended that I was listening to this one came on, and it was amazing, and it was set in Canada, and it's it talks about as a result of covid nineteen. You know people are passing away and not just from Cova, but many other things as well and because of the social distancing rules in place. You know there's no opportunity for people to gather a person's bedside, or even to say goodbye or even hold a funeral. There's sort of this. It's these people sort of have not had any closure. You know a family member or close friend passes away, and it's just kind of nothing as as you wait until this ends to be able to do something. And what does that do for people's psyche? But in the podcast it actually talks to a pastor in southern Ontario who had done his wife passed away, and he did an online funeral using zoom, and he had people connect from all over the world, and they had songs they had some of the some of the people had played played songs on using musical instruments, obviously and. And things like that and actually became like a like a full funeral service with a lot of people sharing and connecting, and it was a fascinating show because I think you know in a way. When it ended a lot of the people said that actually in some ways it was even better than a a traditional funeral because you were in this zoom room with everyone. And when someone was sharing, everyone could see their face. You know they were up close and everyone could hear. There wasn't little circles of people talking here and there and then it was really really intimate and really touching and. I thought it was an absolutely fantastic. Look at sort of how this came together, and and how it went so I will put a link to that in the show notes because I think it's a, it's a really nice story. Yeah, I think. One thing I should certainly touch upon before we leave and you just made me think about it in telling your story is of course, the shooting that occurred in in Nova Scotia here in Canada. Shout to any any listeners we may have in the province, no Scotia with thinking of you, guys and Just an absolutely. Horrific, horrific incident amassed one of the largest mass shootings. We've had in Canadian history twenty two people dead alone gunmen. At least we still believe it was a lone gunman who went to a number of locations around the province. Killing people just really really horrible, horrible, horrible situation and to your point Kim it of course is made the the service very very difficult and complicated. A number of people from across the country who who wanted to get out in in solidarity with Nova Scotia and I'm sure support grieve be present at a funeral services, and of course that's just not really possibility given. What's what's going on But they? They similarly did I understand that. There is something of of. A number of local musicians the got involved and government officials that participated in a can a zoom zoom call to try and give everybody an opportunity to to grieve, and and and support the the community as Canadian so anyway I just wanted to. Put that out there and yeah. A shadow to everybody Nova Scotia were were were thinking. You guys yeah very very sad situation I mean sad anytime. It's horrific, but you know when when social distancing is in place, it's you know even it's even more difficult and I think you know. You talk about these online gatherings I. Think it does show that when. You know when people feel something and when they're when they're really motivated, and they wanna get together, and they want to have a sense of community that we can overcome these these these rules in the social distancing and sort of the obstacles that try and keep people apart. We do find ways to come together and I think that's really quite inspiring. Okay! I don't want to end the show on that note, but I do want to just remind everyone that we will have an extensive show notes for this episode, so please you know. We talked about a number of different things here like a mobile APP or an application for for hosting and attending conferences with the Tucker. Carlson interview with the Empty Plain that Canada had returned from China. UN story about people in the US adults for being able to sue China all of this sort of stuff as As well as sort of the story that I told about the the conflict between Thailand and China will have some some links to all of that material. in our show notes as always please if you enjoyed the podcast. If you think someone else might enjoy it, please let them know We don't have a huge marketing budget, so we certainly appreciate if you share it with with a friend or a family member. I'm and you can follow us on social media, instagram, twitter, facebook and linked in. Our social account is the same PR law podcast so. P R L A W podcast so twitter dot com slash. PODCAST facebook. Dot Com slash. Pr Law Podcast, etc, etc, so for you and Christie. Is Cam.
#055: Big Trouble On the Little Island of the Gods | Alisa Rutherford-Fortunati IV
"This show is a production of migration media to learn more about us and see a complete list of our shows visit migration media talknet from gration media. This is migratory patterns. I'm your host I Mike Shaw. And as has become tradition we are wrapping up season. Three with a discussion between myself and my life partner her legally legally married to person paper. That's right yes individual person who is signed the legal contract with me to be. Did we actually sign it. Or did I just do my fingerprint actually. I don't remember if we signed find. It gets my thumbprint and maybe not signature. What we will check the check? We got the official document from the People's Republic of China. That says we are legally married which is interesting interesting but anyway this is a Lisa before to Nardi my wife slash partner and we are in Bali. Yes currently sweating sweating profusely. It's basically the default position here. You're sweating profusely unless you're in a place where the air conditioner is blasting. Let's good for your health right. And that's very good for you healthy. We have come to come together at the end of season. Three to talk about the big transition an ir life kind of talk out a few issues. If you've listened to this show you have heard me mention this being in Bali moving to Bali if you listen to a recent episode of the podcast bittersweet life. You would hurt my interview on nats show where I talked a lot about the issues. That have come up for myself as well as thoughts about my leaving China. But we're going to that between myself and Lisa right right now. So let's do a very quick recap. Why are we in Bali for those who have not heard the story before so we talked a little bit about this? I believe in the last podcast. The end the season two we talked about. We were GONNA go to Bali and yeah so we're here now in part because because I have joined a school here in Bali and The school focuses on mindfulness and holistic education nation. which is something I'm very interested in? Of course there's still a standard thorough academic curriculum as well but it is. It's very holistic and focused on developing all aspects of the individual which I think is an essential part of education. They plug in the mindfulness and Meditation Classes Right Not specifically meditation classes one of the classes. The students do yoga. One is gardening nine and then also. We have mindfulness time in morning. Circle Times where we do do meditation or breath work or things like that. It's non secular. There's nothing religious about it in any way shape or form bite. The students have the opportunities to develop techniques that can benefit them in a variety of ways. And this is all plugged into the British curriculums. This isn't like some crazy pampering scheme this is this is all I mean if you do research on it there's tons of schools actually in England right now. That are integrating mindfulness programs and is there. There's definitely more and more research about the benefits of mindfulness. Four were youth. There's already been quite a bit for adults that are shown how it can benefit us our health our mental wellbeing and things of that nature but as far as for students or youth. There's a less served it's being done now but there's less there are. There are already programs in the United States in and other countries that are integrating this into public the schools and private schools. So this is nothing new. It's nothing like shocking but this school has been around for twenty years and for me after I finish. Finish my master's program. I really felt like I wanted to continue my education and so in choosing jobs I am choosing schools that not only am interested in the country or the school itself. But I feel that I can continue continue my education as individual and as a teacher there so Bali was the place that we ended up being drawn to but it was more so in in some ways. The school that drew is here than it was. The Bennett was Bali itself. There's lots of wonderful things about Bali but I think it was the program and it it just kind of clicked. This feels like the next right step is very much career oriented. Yeah it very much is kind of different for us. Yeah neither reverse has ever made that kind of decision about life path before there are other schools of course they'd have these type of programs integrated into the core structure of their schools but again it was partially that it felt like the right place for for for anyone who hasn't heard before the story. We've actually we had a chance to come down here and actually visit the school. We were down here on holiday. Last winter last northern winter as staff offering to announce last northern winter. We were down here on holiday during the Chinese New Year break. The school was here. We checked it out. It was great. You had a really good good feeling when you met with the people and the environment is really nice and it's so different from Beijing and there's lots of great vegan food there's lots of You know lots of juices. We can drink lots of healthy food so there was a lot of things that made us feel like. Oh this is not only career wise for you. That was the paramount but then all the other things kind of lent it to being so different but in a way that we were interested in exploring right now when we got here here we ran into some unexpected road bumps and Some of them were kind of they were of the kind that you would expect. ACT TO RUN INTO IT. Which is kind of oxymoronic unexpected? But they'd be expected basically. It took US way longer to find a place to live than we thought it would. I think we'd budget in three weeks to find a place and it took a seven. I think in general to be a bit self reflective both both of us. I don't think we were no arrogant in the sense of. Oh we've got this. We've moved to across across the world before we've moved to another country. I was very much like that. Okay so maybe you word. I don't think we were. I wasn't necessarily arrogant in that exact way but there was there was an arrogance. There of we've done this before we know how to do this and I think we were. We're both naive in thinking that since we've gone through that whole process before that we would get here and yes things would be different but it wouldn't be such an intense culture shock. I honestly again. They're sounds incredibly naive. Steve Reflecting on it. But I didn't really expect to get culture shock and I just thought wargin I can kind of cause I love people watching and I love experiencing new perspectives and traveling new places and just experiencing different things so for my perspective. There was the sense of like I've done this before you know. I traveled across the United States. I lived in this place. I've lived in that place and so when we got here here. We gave ourselves week to settling joy ourselves and we really have a great time and then a certain point where like okay. We need to digging into house hunting and we had challenges finding houses in China as well but it. This was a whole other type type of challenge. We didn't know what an acceptable price really was. An a lot of things you find out through word of mouth moving to a place that has a high density tourists and not a AH. The density of the population is low enough that you can feel it really changes how easy it is to find a house reasonable cost of things in China. There was always kind of a higher cost because reformers but I think there was higher. Hi It was. You didn't feel it quite as much as you do here. It's not developed here. We went some some aspects will know week we came from a place where we had to figure out the cultural differences and we had to navigate not knowing the language but in in big cities in Beijing and big cities in China now especially in a place like Beijing Tier One city. There are apps you can just plug in what you're looking for and you find the options and it's not as simple as seeing what's is there and hitting a button you have to go visit and check places out but there's just a sink there are two or three places you can go and you can just find lots lots of places here. It's not quite that simple. There are websites you can go to. But it's an polices are notoriously. Not what they appear to be plus also we kind of put our restriction on ourselves but we wanted to be a very specific geographical area. You know we could have probably had an easier time finding a place if we had gone a little further out from where we are right now where we settled is great and we got it to just within that circle that we had drawn on the map and we Kinda I had to go to the edge that circle defined what we wanted. Because you couldn't find exactly the attributes of the House that we wanted and that was a real wakeup call and for me on my eyesight it was really about the lack of development like we came from a place that is. It's almost like living in the future if you come from the US and you go to China some of these tier one cities cities it is like the jetsons. It's just everything works. Everything is on an APP. You can find everything in a push button and most people speak enough English where you can get by. That's how I felt I and then we come here and none of that is no. That's here. I think that you have to make caveat here that that's true on a lot of aspects but at the same time there was also moments where you're like what is going on. Why do I have to go to the bank Ted Times to make this one transaction happen? Why do I have to go to five? Different banks to find one that will do you know. I think that there are lots of challenges in every place you go and there were lots of challenges in China but for us they were easier to navigate. There was something something about it and again it could be who we are. It could be when we went when you went in particular. Could be the people we had around us. It's hard hard to say specifically but there was something a about the way that Beijing worked. That was easier easier for us to navigate. When we got here I think both class it was just this huge wakeup call of like Whoa we have? I've no idea what we're doing in this place. Every thing that we thought we gathered every like to. Whoa we thought we had in our tool belt one? It was still being shipped from China to Indonesia. We had to wait for it to get here but figuratively we. We had to throw it out. We had to completely say okay. We're and maybe that's not the experience that every ex pat has or every international migrant has or maybe it is. I'm not sure but for us it was jarring and I because I had my work and school could find a grounding in that way but you know Working with migration media media it was I think it was even more so jarring. I went from having a nine to five job that I had had for eleven years to coming to a place. Ace where I'm totally working for myself at the same time trying to find a place where we can live. I'm I'm scout now places online finding links for you while you're at school and then if if we're lucky after school we can go visit a place or two if we're lucky. I actually started taking the headway on it. I was actually doing a lot of the research urge the majority of it and at a certain point I got so overwhelmed after two or three weeks of doing it mostly on my own because I am more particular particular to be completely honest. I'm more particular about certain things. And so that's why I had taken the lead on of course but after a certain point three or four weeks I was like I need you to take the lead now because I was so overwhelmed in burned-out by it. So that's the house part of it that we did have particular particular set of requirements that we wanted to find what we wanted in the very small geographical zone that and we wanted to stay in and then find it within a price range and at at high tourism season so a lot of these places are are being rented out as AIRBNB. We want to sign a yearly or multiple year lease from a lot of these places are going week to week month to month. So yeah that was. That was a struggle and that was kind of indicative of the road ahead. Yeah I mean it was it was Kinda rough. It was a lot rougher than I thought it would be and I the next thing saying I want to talk about is how we got to a week after we moved in. We haven't really settled. I had to do a visa and to for that visa on actually went back to Beijing and it was rough. It was a rough time. I loved visiting Beijing. I love seeing the friends I saw I saw. I saw more friends in the four days I was there then. I probably seen you know during the normal course of a month or so just because says it's all packed in very tightly and it was rough I found out I really missed it and I didn't quite understand why and it was a struggle. I remember we came. I came back and we had a conversation and we talked about how much we miss China and it was quite shocking to us how much we missed it if you listen to the last last podcasts that we did together. We were both having a hard time. I think at that point. I was almost having a harder time with the concept of leaving China which is unusual. Yeah it's very unusual for me. I am very flexible migrant. I'm very flexible about my concept except of home especially knowing my partner was going with me and off those things. It was surprising to me how how deeply I was feeling feeling it. I kind of come to a place acceptance when we got here it all came flooding back and I actually had to even ask like. Please don't talk about China. Please don't talk about Beijing. Because it was so heartbreaking had such deep grief about leaving even though it felt like the complete right decision it it was gut wrenching and both of us. Immune particular kind of came to this place that I realized I mean there was so many beautiful benefits and things that we got from being their challenges as well but what I realized eventually was that you know. It's is partially that Mike and I got together there. We got married there. We had our first apartment there. He used to offer his furniture. It against. Yeah we used to like just have incredible weekends either walking around a park or walking around Nikea Keno now people watching park. That's an incredible experience with China. You should do it if you're at the chance but it was. Yeah I mean it was. There were so many powerful memories there and when we left of course we didn't leave those memories but we left the things that physically titus to those memories and that was definitely a such a process of grieving. Yes tough and I honestly don't quite know why I feel that way like I mentioned this in my interview on the bittersweet life with Katie Shady. Sewell that I didn't feel this kind of missing this kind of longing after I left Boston. which is the place I grew up in I have such an intense attends deep love and connection to my hometown and I? I still don't feel that way. I mean I feel out here in the world as an international migrant. I am kind of in my my element. I'm I'm I found my calling. This is what I WANNA do. This is where I WANNA be and I'm with the person I want to be with but that it's getting better the whole separation from in Beijing as time goes on the AAC fades a little bit. I had to do another trip back. Just actually a week or two ago and it was a lot easier but I'm just not sure why felt that way and hopefully I can figure that out because I don't want to go through this again. Maybe it's maybe it's eleven years maybe it's it's all the amazing life experiences and coming into myself. Maybe that's the reason I got to tell you if we're here in Bali for a handful of years and I feel this way after moving out of a place I. I don't know if I'm able to handle this. We have to find you a job somewhere. We don't have to move. I think that is actually something thing that I think. Were still on the path of being international migrants. And I think we are still in the path of Living in various as places throughout my career and your career but more so it's my career that will take us different places. I think that we're still on that path but I think it did call us both to question how many times we WanNa do this. Yeah the shipping things here here. I mean we we down sized our lives a lot wheat throughout everything or gave away or sold everything that did not bring us joy and Aliens Marie Condo very proud of that. Well maybe not because we still have five cubic meters with us stuff which actually is not that much. I mean you the account when you say five hundred meters. I mean I took a picture. It's basically didn't even feel half of one of those mini pod containers but it took so long to ship it and it was so oh expensive and it's funny. Now that is derived. There's kind of this nesting process. That's going on and it feels really nice and I and a lot of this transition. It's feeling a little easier because it's just every day you do a little something you put something away. Something finds its place and it just feels nice like Oh. This place is a little more hours now. Yeah Yeah and that's really nice but yeah we're going to have to figure out some other way to do this and I actually. I've never taught to people who've around so much like when we left Beijing aging we were living out of our luggage for about four months because we left China we spent a month in the US. Then we spent two two months searching for a place here and actually in the first couple of weeks we were here. We were still live. Our luggage really was until I got back from visa around three and a half months living out of our luggage. I don't know how people can kill it. Didn't feel good at all. Now if felt very ungrounded and I think part of what attributed to that as well is that finding that community and that friend circle is a very different experience if you are in a place where you're just okay. Let's just meet everybody in forever however long you're here that's great and we'll start a friendship. Maybe that friendship will last for three hours. And then I'll never see you again are. Maybe maybe it'll be a couple months. That's great there are definitely people who are here long term but finding that long-term community mini and finding those people that are grounded in living here but still open to other people is challenging and and so we were searching for our home. We were waiting for all of our things that are nesting items to arrive. I from Beijing. We were starting to kind of look for socializing opportunities and all of the things we were finding. Were just just not very grounded. They were all transitional. The relationships were transitional separately. The people that I was meeting at my work mark which was lovely but I think We were also searching community beyond that in kind of I just feeling things out I can be at times introverted. I call myself a introvert or an ambivert so I've definitely have desired deeper friendships in the last few years and to not have quite as big a French circle but but to have the deep friendships and we did meet some some very nice people here but a lot of people are here for a very short amount of time and so figuring out what community means here has been an experience. Yeah and that's been a little a bit tougher for me because I don't have a professional environment that I go to. I don't have a set roster of people that I interact with every day. I don't have a routine. I have to develop my own routine which is tough in basically you have to pay to have a routine here. You WanNa go to like the same co working space every day and then you have to make an effort to engage with people you don't you don't have common cause with people going to job. What I've discovered is going to a job is is very freeing which is an oxy's like an oxymoron because when you go in their structure everyone has a way that they're operating everyone's part of a team? You're a part of that team. You know your role. Everyone's roles and define and within that context you can engage with people and that is very grounding and very freeing because because it gives you space to explore relationships with people how to relate to people is that someone could be a friend outside work etc etc here. It's not like that. And even if I go to the same co working space every single day the people who rotate in and out of there are constantly changing whether it's someone who doesn't go there everyday just once in a while or at someone who's there for a month on rotation and then they go to some other place. It's really this whole different animal. One interesting thing that happened to me is actually. It was last night I went. I went to this kind community event at a school and it was awesome because everyone who is there were our age and most of them had kids and there were vendors. It was Kinda like this this fair at the school where they had vendors and food and rides and all this cool stuff and and I met a bunch of people people and it was the first time I felt like Oh there is a community here and there are spaces where these people gather and I can gravitate to them. It doesn't have to be about me going to work every day. I can build those relationships and find those structures outside of workplace which is something I've never had to really work has always is provided kind of the foundation you. When I was in Beijing I was in Beijing? I found my job a two months after I arrived there and yes I'm all of my friends. I met outside work but but I had that grounding in a job that I went to every day I had that steady income that afforded me the ability to go out and drink lots of alcohol and art clubs and stuff now. Now that I'm GonNa do that now but yes so it's been really difficult for me to navigate this space because it is so different from any other space I've ever experienced here and if we go to a different city in a few years it may be totally different again. It may be another one of those cities where people tend to live there here. This is a place there. There are people who live here but there's also are huge proportion of the people just pass through and it is really tough to find those spaces to navigate through through the environment in such a way that you don't feel isolated. Hey everyone if you like the kind of conversations that we have here and migratory patterns you should check out pop abroad hosts Michelle. Obama is a mission to help ex pats and migrants live their best lives overseas by talking with the people who are doing it right now during the first season. She's talking about community why we need it. How can use it to get a leg up? And how the best community leaders make. There's work listening to she interviews credible women who are killing it overseas to hear how they're creating community in their adopted homes. You can learn more and hear the latest episode at Migration Media Dot Net. We're just search for pop abroad. Wherever you get your podcast so the last thing I wanNA talk about was the physical environment vis-a-vis transportation infrastructure? And this sounds like I'm GonNa get all Wonky but I've discovered there is is just a basic level of comfort that I have knowing that there's public transit around and here in Bali there is zero. None no I know public transit at all. You have to either get a cab or a car hire or a bike hire and let me let me tell you. If you're not riding a scooter you you ain't going anywhere very fast. You GotTa have a scooter otherwise you are sitting in traffic because the roads are narrow. You can't walk anywhere. I see people riding bike and riding bikes and I think think my God those guys have a death. Wish it's crazy. The roads are just so treacherous. It has been a wakeup call for me. Now the flip side of that has been ever since I Sattar riding a scooter man feel awesome like to get on that scooter and go and I know I'm not going that fast but I'm going pretty fast. It feels very liberal out. I was telling you I think might be a motorcycle guy. Yeah I never thought of myself that way I mean if we get back to North America at some point I might. I WANNA get a motorcycle or a really nice scooter really enjoying the scooter. I never did the scooter thing in Beijing scooters everywhere in Beijing but I always wrote a bike because partially because I wanted the exercise but also just because even there was a little treacherous and I just felt safe on the bike because it's smaller frame and I can weave in and out much more agile then cars and scooters but here man. I really liked that scooter. I had a different experience with that. Maybe for you like the community has been harder to find for me dealing with not being able to just walk places or take a bus or the subway. I really don't like not being able to walk to for me to in that you know for me part of how I explore and find my grounding in a place is is to walk. I love walking place for us to walk to the grocery store. That's kind of on the other side of our neighborhood which is not that far. It's like a treacherous the ranger at some point. We're walking in the middle of the road. It's dangerous and so I think that was all we had visited here. That was one of the things that it was like. Oh Oh wow like you cannot walk here. There's there's a few areas have sidewalk or enough of shoulder where it feels safe towards the area. Yeah yeah but most areas there's no shoulder and if there is a shoulder that's probably a bike on it. Yeah we're in the places where it's not a tourist I e area. We're in a place where it's a touristy area and there is actually a sidewalk or a shoulder that is separated from the road. It is not going. It'd be free of motor vehicles. Not People do not walk here. There's just no consideration given I and because I love walking the first three or four weeks we were here are actually more than that. I think the first seven weeks I did walk and People Billig I saw you walking or some of the people from my school would stop and be like two hundred ride. And I'm like no all of this is purposeful. It's okay yeah we actually purpose this mistake. Two months I want to be the first seven weeks while we were looking for a place. We purposefully found like AIRBNB B.'s. That were within walking distance school so you could walk every day and I met. I met some amazing dogs. Not Everybody has agreed experiences with the dogs but I met some amazing dogs. who were lovely? There was this like huge Mama pit bull that I would see every time so sweet and and I got like a walk through a rice field and then in on crazy busy road to my school and there was lots of interesting and enjoyable experiences that but for me since I started learning learning to drive when I was fifteen and a half sixteen. I've had a lot of anxiety about driving and I'm not sure if fits proper to call it a phobia or if it's just to say that it definitely causes me anxiety and I've driven across the United States for three and a half months of my own. I if you know. I've done a lot of things that required me to drive but if I don't drive for a long period of time it starts to make me anxious again so moving here where basically if I want any freedom I have to get on a scooter has been intense and I think part of the reason that this is important to talk about is to talk about mental health and what that means as an ex pat. Because you're going through an experience that's often hard to explain to people that have not been through that experience in you may be used to a certain type of health care and mental health care in your home country and finding that elsewhere can be extremely challenging. I think talking about mental health mental health challenges is incredibly important Porton. I'm doing fine but I do have a lot of anxiety about this thing. That is in central and important part of life here in Bali on on the scooter. Yeah I'm getting on the scooter and this is definitely one of those times where I'm like. Okay what kind of counter can I reach out to that that can maybe support me that or that we could even talk about the experiences. Were having as partners and on our roane individual journeys because for both of us. This was the first time that we moved to a new country with with somebody else and so on many levels I was wonderful because we have this partner to go on this journey with but you can also also expect that. Even if you're in the same place doesn't mean you're on the same journey. Yeah it's kind of interesting we the way we did it as we were traveling for a month breath and even during that month we were kind of separated for a week or two doing her own thing in the US but then we came through Beijing and then we came here to Bali the first week we were just kind kinda hanging out so we were kind of almost on this travel vibe together. Like we're traveling. Were on the road where we're getting on a flight. Where going to this hotel? We're going to this AIRBNB here. And then at some point it stops being a trip together and starts being. We've moved someplace together and that's where it started to feel different. Yeah And I could see for us. We have been able to maintain and Allow our relationship to shift and to grow as were here but I you know. I think I was talking to you a a couple of weeks ago or something like that. That that I bet there are quite a few international migrant couples. They break up when they moved to a new place. This because for both of us we were able to thankfully talk through our experiences and to share that with each other but his so incredibly intense and kind of like stepping back from that and looking at it together. It's like wow I think a a lot of people could not survive this. Yeah so even though they it might sound strange to be in one breath talking about motorcycles in the next breath talking talking about how intense it is for couples one example of how again we were having completely different experiences. RANCE'S I'm on. I'm on the bike. I'm loving it. It feels like freedom. It's helping me ingratiate myself into the environment here at super triggering for me me. I'm finding great community my school for you not. Yeah and so again like I had a lunch with Somebody in the first few weeks that I was here and there like how are you doing and everything and I was like. I'm doing well. I'm actually doing really good and and again like on many levels GATT. Were we're great. We're we're doing well but then there's these other levels of processing the experience and figuring out what it means is to be here and to be together here and to be having only only separate experiences in the same place it is it is really mind blowing. It's jarring a you know I. I've used that a few times but I think that there there has to be okay so in our first week here there was an earthquake. Yeah was that a second day or something right and so we're sitting on the couch in the it starts to shake and and I'm kind of noticing it Michael. Ix Mesa's this system quick house like generous quake. It was very minor so we're both sitting there concerts to get a little more intensive sh winco somewhere him maybe get a little more intense starting roar. Yeah we're like Oh yeah we need to move. It was done so it was like it was not a big. But that's what it's felt like. It's felt like the earth has been shaking. It's actually a really great analogy because it started slow. We just noticed it. We we had enough time to question it something happening. I think something's happening. And then it's like Holy Shit. Something's happening and you had so we're both kind of. That's that's basically the the best analogy of like we're looking at each other. We're going what's what's going on. Something are we having experiences that are challenging and then they're gone and that it's like a so. It's a cycle of kind of being like well. That's that was an experience and I think we had those in in China. Ah but for some reason we were able to take them in a different way. He's feels different here. If we went through this stuff in China. Obviously it was different in the sense that when you got there had been there for I think six years at that point so you had someone to obviously. It's different if you go somewhere and you're moving in with someone and there's we had challenges with that where it wasn't Europe. We got our own apartment and it would I place that was ours because the place you went to wasn't yours. Awards was an hours but this this feels so different. This this whole experience feels a different. I don't know what the heck is. I don't know why my first six months in in China were superintendents. You also got hired pretty quick. I got hired a new school and I was learning Mandarin and I was just transitioning to being there was there were very intense But for very different reasons and again there's been lots of things that have happened that have just rolled off my back there. There was some tools in my tool kit that I was able to use like there was a whole bunch of stuff that happened with getting my workers and and bureaucracy that I could easily allow to roll off my back because they've had crazy experiences with getting work visas before I just wanted to check the great story about US going to open your bank account. We have total child China bureaucracy. PTSD this was hilarious. We had to go get you back account and we thought what we need to bring every scrap paper that we could possibly think of. We brought you work contract. We brought your work visa. We brought a birth certificates Africa. We brought our marriage licenses and the English translation we bought. We bought our lease every possible thing and we got there. They wanted the passport and my work year. We're the permit which is called Keita's but yeah it was like we had. We literally brought a backpack full. The documents we were so prepared and then we got got there and it was like. Oh okay we don't need as much but again like there have been lots of experiences that we've just like rolled with and have you know there's I mean we've been here for five months four months four months and during those four months so much has happened so when we're talking some of the challenges there's been tons of things that I think other people would say that's a challenge and we were just like whatever we just like let it go because we've lived in China. We know challenge pitch tons of stuff that we just like let roll off our back and lots of again. Lovely people that we've met but but there was all these other things that have been really humbling and I think gaming humility is always a good thing because it makes you more empathetic and compassionate schnitt person towards yourself and other people that are having those same experiences but I think that the the thing that it really made us realize was that we were going to have to evolve as a couple that we were going to have to find find our path here on our own but also together and that we were GonNa have to find our way to strengthen and maintain our mental health in a different way and it's been a really a powerful experience in looking at where your priorities are what you truly need and what it means to migrate to different places. Do I think Bali needs more foreigners. You know straight up. No they should kick us all out. Do I think there are benefits sometimes having people migratory of course of course but I think again. It's it's been an eye opening experience On the impact. You have when you move to a place and the impact. That place has on you. Yeah so ah one one note before we get to the end. I spoke to a mutual friend of ours who will go nameless because she wishes to remain nameless she is from Hawaii a place you have lived and and she was telling her when I met. We're here in Beijing and telling her about our experiences here her is just like Oh my God. It's just like Hawaii. I would hate it. They're you just and Hawaii is a place. I've lived as well so what you say when you're saying that I'm just hearing her saying the same thing and I just can't wait till she comes down and you you guys can talk about how much this is. The things that are bad in Bali are like all the things that are in Hawaii right right so we've been here for months. We got at least a year and three quarters to go or more. Maybe we're open to it but at least that what do we think. What's the verdict moving to Bali a decision that we made thumbs up up comes down moving to Bali a decision we made thumbs up comes down down so can I have more fingers than just my mom I? I'll start didn't come affreux break. I I need at least a couple of digits to explain how I feel the five star rating. You can't do yes or no. You gotTa have the gradations Dacians of ratings in two different things so I need category. This is not how the Internet works. You see how I work and the the Internet can deal with it. Well I'LL START I'll say thumbs up and I'll repeat the same reason I gave when I was on a bittersweet life which is I need to be uncomfortable. Yeah and yeah. I was super comfortable in Beijing and I was. I found this thing I wanted to do. With Migration Media and cross-border communications nations and trying to create a space where ex pats and migrants can create culture together. Bring us all closer together even though we're far apart that's what I WANNA do can't do that if I'm in a place where nine to five job and I know all the ropes. I don't have to work for anything. I need to be uncomfortable to force me to do some stuff and in that sense. I'm glad we moved here. Would I trade in some of the experiences. Yes but I'm actually because we're not fully through a lot of the stuff that we're still dealing with. It's Kinda hard to feel this way but I tend to look back at the hardships in my life and the stuff that I've overcome or survived through. Those are things that those mountains I've climbed those are things I can point to and say I accomplished that. Yeah I got through that and I feel like I'm not quite there yet but when we get I'm I'm almost there and when we do I'll be able to say moving to Bali. Ali and making the transition was a thing that I complex and combined that with the fact that I've been uncomfortable and it's helped me to learn how to do something new I'm it's a thumbs up for me. Yeah I'd say work-life Work Community Kids in my classroom teachers. I work with administration all of the people surrounding that aspect of my life. Two thumbs up they are beautiful l.. Incredible kind hardworking. You know there's always challenges no matter where you go different things but to fricken thumbs up as far as finding my grounding here Pinky oh sideways Pinky and pointing fingers TVD TV. What I mean relay wave TV the working on it still working on it? You GotTa get John That scooter generally opportunities for growth thumbs up like you said. I think that was a perfect perfect way to say it is those opportunities where you are. Uncomfortable are perfect moments for growth. That's why we came here and we are getting exactly what we came here for. Well let's leave it there for now because because we are gonNA come back next week with a special guest who's going to actually talk to us about some of the issues that we've talked about some of the stuff we have been going through. Help US maybe find new ways to think about it and maybe even tell us a little bit about ourselves. We haven't figured out yet which wouldn't be that difficult against I. Thanks so much reduced baby. We're GONNA turn the fan on this. Has Been A migration media production to learn more about the lives of international migrants and see our lineup of shows visit us at migration media dot net or look for us on twitter facebook and instagram.
Larry Wu-tai Chin Pt. 1: The Translator
"Astounded stunned giddy. It was hard to describe exactly how Larry Wu tied chin felt staring at the piece of paper on his desk as a linguist for the C I A he had seen a wide variety of sensitive information, but he hadn't seen anything like this before the memo outlined in detail. Nixon's plans to visit Beijing in February nineteen seventy-two America hadn't had any diplomatic relations with China in over twenty years. If it wasn't for the top secret stamp at the top, Larry wouldn't even believe it was true. The Chinese government would pay a lot of money, this kind of information, fortunately, Larry, was a dedicated hard working American agent, at least by day on his way out of the office that evening, Larry tuck the. Paper under his shirt and snuck it through security once home, he snapped a few quick pictures that weekend. It would fly from Virginia to Toronto to deliver the film to his Chinese intelligence contact who had pass it up. The totem pole until it arrived at the very top the desk of Mousa Dong, the chairman of the People's Republic of China. This is the new park cast original exploring the missions behind the world's most incredible spies in what brought their covert operations into the public eye. I'm your host Carter ROY throughout this show, will explore real world spy tactics required to impersonate, exploit in infiltrate the most confidential places in the world. You can find all previous episodes of espionage, as well as all of park cast other shows on Spotify, and anywhere else you listen to podcasts. New episodes. Come out on Fridays. We're also on Facebook and Instagram at par cast in Twitter at podcast network. This is our first episode on Chinese linguist and spy, Larry, tied chin, a double agent working for both Chinese intelligence in the CIA through the nineteen sixties and early nineteen. Seventies, he currently holds the record for the longest time undercover in the American government thirty three years this week, will explore how Larry became an international spy, and how the unique tactics of Chinese espionage differ from other countries next week will follow Larry to the end of his career as a spy look at the effect, his work had on global politics. Our story begins an cold interrogation room in nineteen fifty one. Larry Wu tied chin sat across from Chinese prisoner of war at the age of twenty nine Larry had just become a Chinese translator for the American consulate in Hong Kong, his primary objective was to help with interogations of Chinese prisoners from the Korean war. The clash between capitalist South Korea and communist North Korea had become a key proxy war for the world's dueling superpowers, the United States who favored, the south in the Soviet Union and China who favored, the north in late nineteen fifty one the Korean war had reached a stalemate in the US was looking for an edge in any place. They could find, so they turned toward Chinese prisoners of war, hoping they would reveal something useful. The only problem early nineteen fifties America was a. A little short on Chinese linguists. This is where Larry Wu. Tie chin comes in. He was born in China and studied English at yen ching university in Beijing from nineteen forty to nineteen forty seven he graduated with a bachelor's degree in journalism, and strong command of both English in Chinese a few years later on himself working at the American consulate. Larry's language abilities quickly made him stand out from his peers and he was assigned to the sensitive task of helping with POW interogations, except a few mistranslated synonyms here, and there, he was a star employees loyal ambitious prodigiously skilled, but there was more Larry than met the eye after work. Larry had another place to be around the same time. He started working for the US military. He began meeting with a man known only as Dr Wong. The topic of their conversations. Details about the Chinese prisoners Larry was translating for these details. Ranged from aspects of the prisoners personal lives to what kind of food. They were served to how America was conducting the interogations this may seem like a hopelessly general sweep of information, but that was by design. According to Paul more the FBI's chief Chinese intelligence analyst between nineteen seventy eight and nineteen eighty eight the Chinese viewed espionage differently from the Cold War's, two major players, the US are in USA in those countries spies, tried to acquire specific information about a specific target, like specialized weapons, manufacturing, they were given clear objectives, and the timeframe to find that information. Chinese espionage, even today is the opposite. The Chinese spy will simply gather as much information about a foreign country as they can this can include classified secrets, but it also might include details about how foreign government thinks or what they value as a culture by doing this, the Chinese form, a holistic profile of how a country works what they're interested in and how they're likely to act in the future, a great example of this. Was a spy named Dom, fawn Brig Chung as a NASA engineer the nineteen seventies, he stole three hundred thousand pages of aviation documents from America and pass them onto the Chinese space program. He wasn't given a specific list of documents to steal. So instead he stole everything he could get his hands on giving China enough material to understand American aviation technology as a whole. Chinese analysts have come up with a metaphor to describe the way they're intelligence operates if the Soviets were trying to collect foreign sand, they would send in a submarine in the dead of night platoon would invade the beach in gathered several buckets full of sand before disappearing the way they came the Chinese on the other hand would send a few agents to spend a day sunbathing at the beach upon returning home. The agents would simply collect the grains of sand that accumulated on their clothes towels because of these covert unspecific tactics Chinese espionage was remarkably more difficult to discover than Soviet or American espionage, they would still secrets right in front of people's eyes. But it was so subtle that nobody would know this was Larry Wu tied chins mentality to be as covert as possible when he met with Dr Wong to discuss the. Chinese prisoners of war. The conversations were often very casual very little of what he passed on was confidential. He mostly focused on the interrogation process itself in the living conditions for the prisoners. Larry, Dr Wong, both believed understanding, the enemy was the best way to beat them as was protocol, Dr Wong reported all of this information back to the ministry of public security in Beijing, but Larry wasn't really sharing this information for political reasons, his motivation, was the money. Larry lived a life of pleasure. He was a thrill seeker. A frequent gambler in frequent cast of China's CDs. Strip clubs is fast paced lifestyle didn't come cheap and translating didn't pay spectacularly so naturally, Larry turned espionage for some side cash. Larry's first reward from Dr Wong came in April of nineteen Fifty-two after about a year of passing information along he was paid two thousand Hong Kong dollars the equivalent of around thirty five hundred in current American dollar value. This was only enough money a wet Larry's appetite. For more. His information escalated to the point that he was sharing soldiers full names, so that Wong to exactly which soldiers had spilled Chinese secrets in which remained loyal Chinese intelligence was intern able to bargain for those disloyal soldiers release before they could share anymore secrets, according to the spy within by former Canadian intelligence officer taught Hoffman once these prisoners were sent back to China, that were punished severely for their confessions, and this all happened because of informants like Larry chin aside from the fact that he was sharing top secret information. Larry was a remarkable employee is performance reviews were always glowing. And he kept a quiet professional profile during office hours. He was so respected by supervisors that after just a year with the State Department. He was hired an even more intriguing office. The foreign bra. And cast information service in Okinawa Japan. The F B I S was a division of the CIA, Larry chin Chinese spy was now a CIA contractor, though this component of the CIA was mostly responsible for translating publicly available. Foreign news sources in English. It offered Larry a key opportunity, based on the information Larry was asked to translate, he gained insight into what the CIA was most interested in allowing him to tip off his handler, and give the Chinese government the opportunity to restrict press coverage on the subject or plans misinformation. He could also gain inside knowledge of the agency, make important connections and hopefully gain access to restricted documents. Up. We'll hear how Larry's new position offered him access a spy can only dream of now back to the story. In nineteen fifty two. Larry woo tied chins nagged a job working for the foreign broadcast information service or FBI I s as an apparatus of the CIA the F, B, I S was in charge of collecting and translating political and military information from foreign countries, they would monitor radio and television, broadcasts newspapers and magazines for covert threats to American security. Larry gathered his family, his wife doors, and their children, to your old, Robert and baby Peter in board, a plane for their new home. Okinawa. At work. Larry was entrusted with listening to radio broadcasts from China and translating them into English and employee of the CIA. Larry was granted a top secret security clearance. His goal officially was to keep an eye on Chinese military movements in the Korean war. His second personal goal was to send all that information back to Chinese intelligence because leering knew where America was looking for troops. He was able to pinpoint American interests. For example, if America was concerned about Chinese forces in unsawn North Korea. It meant unsawn was a key place in the American strategy for the next five years or so. Larry worked undercover with little to no problems reporting back to his handler, and, despite the fact that he now lived in Okinawa. He had to travel all the way back to Hong Kong. To deliver information in person this annoyingly meant yet to schedule month long trips to Hong Kong to disguise, the dates and purposes of his meetings. This is another classic Chinese espionage tactic. Chinese handlers preferred meet their agents in person on rare occasions, outside of the countries, they're working in this is once again, because Chinese espionage is more about general information collection rather than specific missions, these meetings are more of a general annual check-in rather than in fischel, debriefing. Once you landed in Hong Kong, Larry would work as way into the concrete jungle in post a note on a nondescript city, wall note would be simple, something like my wife has recovered from the flu and just feeling better to the casual passer by this would mean little to Larry's new handler, a man named OT Ming, it told him that Larry was in Hong Kong and ready to meet sometime in the nineteen fifties, Larry was provided with two other resources for making contact. I, he was given a phone number from the steers, man named Mr Lee in Toronto, Larry would be able to contact him if you needed immediate help from Chinese intelligence, the second resource was halfway across the world in New York City, Larry would fly to New York in. To the middle of Chinatown into a chapel called the church of the transfiguration. He would injure, the confessional inside would be Mark Chung a Catholic minister who took up the position as a refugee from southern China, when Larry made his confession secrets he revealed were those of the. C. I A. Father, Mark Chung was a special kind of agent known as a sleeper agent, according to the spy within a sleeper agent is assigned to a foreign city to establish a normal life and wait for instructions they can wait their entire lives to be activated. For single one time assignment, Mark sole mission, the moment he spent years waiting for was to help Larry in case of an emergency. One of the worst possible outcomes for a spy is that they are either discovered or compromised. The not only push the spies life at risk that are also risks the lives of any other spies in their network to prevent a massive leak like this, Mark would help Larry avait capture by the United States within anonymous phone number two Toronto, a secret handler in Hong Kong and the Catholic priest in lower Manhattan. Larry had all the safeguards he needed to break open the secrets of the CIA from the inside Larry chin, remained a model employee. He was consistently praised for his outstanding linguistic abilities, quote, marked by the highest degree of professionalism education. We don't know much about Larry's work at the CIA, but he assisted with translating messages agents working in China, whenever the. Agency needed to compose messages in Chinese, they turned, Larry, when writing a message, Larry would naturally ask the agents age level of education, local dialect, gender, and so forth. This would be used to tailor the language to those agents, but it also gave Larry crucial information about the American agents working in China all of which he sent back to Chinese intelligence by his new handler, Mr.. Oh, while it is unclear why Dr Wong was no longer. Larry's primary contact this possible that one handled newer recruits and pass them off, as they became more entrenched in their spy efforts, according to van makers FBI agent assigned to China's intelligence at the time. Larry worked the CIA, quote, Larry was able to extract allusions that would otherwise go unnoticed. There were a lot of legitimate reasons. Why chins? Saw material, he shouldn't normally have access to these allusions referred in nuances of the Chinese language, that non native speakers often came under stand, for example in Mandarin. There are several ways to say the word and all of which have different connotations, thus any sensitive mysterious, or otherwise important Chinese messages, were sent directly to Larry's desk for decoding. Larry was a hard working, and seemingly loyal employees from his first day, he worked his way up the ladder quickly and in nineteen sixty one he was transferred halfway around the world to Santa Rosa California by nineteen seventy. He was promoted again, and sent to Arlington Virginia, the heart of the US federal government during his time in America. Larry continued to frequent casinos and strip clubs but he was in. Credibly successful keeping that side of his life away from his professional image. In fact, by nineteen seventy he'd been working for the American government for almost twenty years, and no one's suspected thing. It's important to note that during this time America was more focused on the Soviet Union than on China, this allowed Larry to virtually fly under the radar as known suspected Chinese-born government worker could be a threat when flinched at the idea of passing top-secret information about US Chinese relations as we mentioned in the beginning of this episode in nineteen seventy Larry was given an incredibly important document to translate the information, which regarded president, Richard Nixon's planned visit to China was literally placed right on Larry's desk. The US had cut off all diplomatic ties with China, when it became the communist party controlled. People's Republic of China in nineteen forty nine president Nixon had a reputation as a war hawk. It was inconceivable that he'd be the one to try and warm up. They're freezing Cold War era relations. But here it was in writing sins entire strategy. China would pay big for this kind of information. After smuggling document home, Larry called his Toronto, contact, Mr Lee on payphone Larry told him that he had something new. Mr Lee insisted they meet in person in person meetings, where the best way to avoid a paper trail. That weekend. Larry boarded a plane from Arlington Virginia to Buffalo New York, rented a car and drove for two hours around the scenic Lake Ontario to Toronto, once there, he stopped at a nondescript strip mall and pretended to window shop until he met his contact either Mr Lee himself or an intermediary their exchanged, the role of film, with a quick, handshake and within twenty four hours. It was back home with his family in Virginia. Strangely. Larry's act of espionage actually helped repair the relationship between China in America. It showed now's Dom the chairman of the People's Republic of China that America was actually willing to negotiate when national security advisor, Henry Kissinger, met with Chinese officials in early nineteen seventy-one to plan, the meeting China was receptive. They knew Nixon strategy. They knew the meeting wasn't a trap or worse. An insult Nixon's trip to China was a shocking success. The meeting opened up engagement between the two countries and as a result. Drove a wedge between China and they're communist allies and the Soviet Union. This gave the US Allegra up as the Cold War rolled on Nixon, even called his visit quote the week that changed the world. But Larry's in bishop's weren't political. He didn't care whether as espionage helped or hurt either of the countries he was working for he was there for the money alone, and it was rolling in, according to Larry chin himself, China gave him a total of one hundred eighty thousand dollars for his information over the years worth around one point two million dollars in today's currency, and he didn't let that money sit around and gathered dust. He used it to buy apartment buildings in low income sections of Baltimore and rent them out from nice return on his investment. Larry chin, linguist spy, slum, Lord, now, some of Larry's fellow CIA, employee's noticed. He was living like a high roller on the salary of a mid level. Linguist Larry explain it away, is gambling winnings, this excuse. Worked as a few of his co workers recalled seeing him win big when they were out on the town. Larry at it. All he had a salary funded by the CIA big bonuses from China unique property slept around gambled at his leisure and best of all, nobody suspected a thing but halfway across the world. Another Chinese agent was considering ending his own career. Larry didn't know it, but this was a decision that would change his life permanently. Coming up. We'll learn the identity of the traitor, the changed Larry's life. Now back to the story. Larry chin thought he added all figured out, working for the CIA while spying for China, but his counterpart, the Chinese ministry of state security. A senior intelligence officer named you chain. Shung had the opposite idea work for China. Well, spilling secrets to the CIA you was probably recruited by the CIA in the early nineteen eighties, but exactly win. Why, and how our mystery according to Thomas Patrick Carroll. Former officer in the clandestine service of the CIA recruitment begins with a process called spotting spotting is the identification of targets that appear to have access to valuable information obvious. Choices are foreign spies agents or officers. I the target is surveyed to predict the likelihood they'll betray their own country. From there a plan is made to approach the target sometimes government will make an approach through third party or sometimes they'll approach directly to pending on variety of factors like the targets personality. However, there is another possibility. You chain shown may have been what US intelligence calls a walk in walk ins, literally walk into an American installation in a foreign country until the government. They have information right into the same through written communication, the good majority of walk ins and write ins are rejected, but some do make it back to American intelligence on. This is contingent on the credibility of the source and the importance of their information, whether it was you or the American government that initiated contact sometime in the early nineteen eighties. You began providing information to the US some of that Intel pertained to Larry. Woo tied chin. You change Shum didn't know Larry personally most experts believe that you found out about Larry's work through other agents in China, since they were working in similar circles. Larry was completely ignorant to this rising threat. He was still working in Virginia making money and spending like a high roller in fact, between his salary is espionage in his property rentals. Larry had so much money in the Bank, he actually decided to retire from the CIA in nineteen Eighty-one upon his retirement. He was awarded the career intelligence medal by deputy director Bobby Inman, he shook. Larry's hand in gave him a personal note that read you leave with the knowledge that you personally, contributed to our success in carrying out our mission. Although Larry was retired. His spy career was far from over his former employees later reported that he would regularly, call them in ask about work. He would always ask simple questions, things like, are you still working in your department, or who's your boss? These days, Larry was still up to date on the inner workings of the CIA and he's still regularly, flew to Hong Kong to pass the Intel onto Mr.. Oh, Larry, of course, didn't tell Chinese until he retired. He was afraid, Mr. oh, would no longer seem as a valuable asset and would stop paying him. Surprisingly, Larry's con worked China had no idea. He no longer worked for the CIA. In fact, on February fourth nineteen eighty eighty-two Larry boarded a c a c flight to Beijing to attend a banquet in his honor. For his work as a spy. He was awarded the honorary rank of deputy bureau chief in the ministry of public security, the first detail you change Sean supplied to US intelligence with about this very trip in March nineteen eighty-two. You inform the CIA that a Chinese agent working inside the US took a plane to China. The previous moods. It would take six months for the CIA to valuate us claim. According to Paul more FBI senior China analyst, quote, the CIA wanted to evaluate whether there was any substance to the allegation before they pass it over. They wouldn't want the FBI trampling around if there's a sensitive capability behind it on September twenty eighth nineteen eighty two the facts were evaluated the CIA came to a decision and the report landed on the desk of f. B I special agent. I see Smith. The memo read Chinese male. Currently employed by US intelligence has for long period of time. Been passing classified material to the People's Republic of China. The originator of the accusation is a source of unknown reliability, the report continued to claim that the trader was likely impli of the military or perhaps, the FBI, not likely a member of the CIA special agent Smith in need morning coffee to wake him up after a report like that. The mole had been working for a long period of time who knows what they could have passed along. They needed to get someone on the case immediately. He called special agent Tom Carson into his office to break the news. Nothing about Tom, Carson was flamboyant. He was from a small town in Alabama, hymns born with the grace of being able to think faster than he talked. He had more than ten years of field experience, working in organized crime, as well as Chinese counterintelligence in New York, and DC. But this case would test him Smith related the report to Carson and asked him to find the mole arson was hesitant. He knew a case like this men pressure in lots of it to mention the report wasn't much to go on in the end. He agreed. If he could pick his own team. Smith allowed it told Carson that this mission was strictly need to know. He didn't need it apartment. Full of rumors Carson understood he would have to find the traitor fast. The hunt was on. It wouldn't be long before Chinese intelligence. Join the chase. They were going to find the agent, that turned on them even if it took an assassination as America in China hunted for the traitor. Larry was about to make the biggest mistake of his life, a mistake that finally put him on the map of the. F. B. Thank you for listening espionage. We'll be back Friday with a new episode. You can find all previous episodes of espionage, as well as all park has other shows on Spotify and anywhere else. You Nepad casts several of you have asked how help us if you enjoy the show, the best way to help is to leave a five star review. And don't forget to follow us on Facebook and Instagram at par cast and Twitter at par cast network. We'll be back next week with another deep dive into the world of plan. Destin ration-. Espionage was created by max Cutler is a production of Cutler media and is part of the park has network. It is produced by maximum Cutler. Sound design by Russell Nash with production assistance by Ron Sapiro, police king additional production assistance by Carly Madden in Maggie admire espionage written by Michael Herman, I'm Carter ROY.
30 Years Since Tiananmen Square Changed China As We Know It
"This message comes from on points sponsor indeed. If you're hiring with indeed, you can post a job in minutes. Set up screener questions, then zero in on your shortlist of qualified candidates using an online dashboard. Get started at indeed dot com slash NPR podcast. From NPR and WB. You are Boston, I'm Meghna Choco birdie. And this is on point Beijing's Tiananmen Square, in the shadow of the Forbidden City, the home to China's emperors for half a millennium, where Mao Zedong triumphantly proclaimed the founding of the People's Republic of China in nineteen forty nine we'll fast forward forty years to June of nineteen eighty nine. The culmination of seven weeks of pro democracy demonstrations that ended with one of the darkest days in modern China's history. Here's a report from ABC's, Gary shepherd. It is difficult. Not to use the word massacre to describe what happened. The military moving in armored vehicles smashed through barricades that have been put up by the protesters and advanced relentlessly towards gentlemen, square hundreds dead. Maybe thousands more wounded the exact number is still not known. But three decades later, China's global power rises economic gains have transformed, the lives of the Chinese people, even as the government continues to crack down hard on dissent. So this hour on point, we're asking thirty years later, what is the lasting legacy of Tiananmen Square? And you can join us what do you remember about those days that moment in June of nineteen Eighty-nine about the violence about seeing those thousands of pro democracy demonstrators facing the might of the Chinese military today is the thirtieth anniversary of the image that went around the world of that solitary man, standing defiantly before a line of tanks? Join us any. Time at on radio dot org, or on Twitter and Facebook and on point radio. We'll joining us from Washington today is Joe phone swo-. He was one of the twenty one student leaders of the nineteen Eighty-nine protests in tenement square. He was placed on a most wanted list by the Beijing, public security bureau. He was arrested in June of nineteen Eighty-nine and imprisoned for a year. He moved to the United States in nineteen ninety five and in two thousand seven he co founded a human rights charity called humanitarian China, Joe folks will welcome to on point. Thank you for having me. I'm very glad that you're able to join us today. And if I may I just wanna play a little bit more of some of the reporting that went around the world. Regarding the events that were happening on June fourth and June fifth intimate square in one thousand nine hundred nine so let's listen to a little bit. More of ABC news is Gary shepherd describing the scene as the Chinese military clashed and rolled over demonstrators in the square, but in fired automatic weapons into crowds of citizens who were the most part could fight back with nothing more than rocks and bottles. They fired their weapons even as the mobs were chanting slogans like you are the People's Liberation Army. And we are the people, they fire their weapons into groups of demonstrators at sometimes numbered in the tens of thousands, there has been no official announcement of casualties student leaders claim they are staggering and that the government is attempting to cremate the bodies as quickly as possible. So the true number of Potala days will never be known report. There from ABC news is Gary Shepard on June fourth nineteen Eighty-nine Joe folks. Whoa. What happened to you on that day? I just listen into this bring me to tears. This was a very difficult times for me. You know, so they'd be full when fall and the evening tune cert-. This was doc historic moment in Chinese history. Also changed my life completely. So before the massacre Beijing was in the festival mode because for the first time in Chinese history, millions of people able to speak from their heart has what just such a desire to speak to express. And the you can still see his pictures. So nobody expect the proto massacre. It came as completely surprise. I was their from the evening of June cert- to Mony of June fall until we were driven away from Tim Scurr. I was among the last to leave him square. It was like experiment experiencing a wall except that we, we were at sea eye of the storm. We will protect it by the creatures citizens of Beijing. Hold do anything to block homage to see with her all day. That's why you see images like ten comp-. There. It happened to many people, and many were crashed at least about ten of 'em document. We don't really know their other reports of people killed by time to. That's kind of courage. People were showing face of this. Brutality. So. I hear you saying that. Many people were crushed under the tanks that entered TNN square. And you know as, as we noted to this day, we don't actually know how many people were killed when the army began its crackdown. That's right. Yeah. You know after thirty years is properly too late. I believe we poverty never know how many people died. Even in for someone like me. I saw only a small part of it. For example, the tank attack that happened like minutes after we left I was fortunate just to miss it by maybe ten minutes. And I never knew it onto I was out of prison at met function, who is true. Here he was trying to save some. And he's he was crushed. I knew the full story. So this was me, you know, I was considered a student leader and during last thirty years, because I'm working on this trying to help its people, and there are people who every year would come to me to describe in people who never known that their people. Still even today. People free to speak as we are talking now. They're the families of those people who were killed in United States, the afraid to talk afraid to talk thirty years later, you know, it's I think it's worth reminding people the, the scale of what happened in June of one thousand nine hundred nine in Beijing. Because tenement square is enormous, it's gigantic so thousands of pro democracy demonstrators packed the square for weeks. I mean, it was this surge of particular voice of the Chinese people. And then to imagine. And I do apologize. Because I understand that it is difficult to relive these moments. But today then we, we round the world watch the Chinese army, basically steamroll into this into this demonstration, it truly must have been a cataclysmic shock. So what I wonder Joe functional though, is that was the tragic end to the demonstrations. What was it about China in that moment? Seven weeks prior that brought you lead you to being one of the twenty one student leaders of the protests. Why did you want to do this? I was a physics student in, in physics, we look for universal principles across time and space. And I, I won't see the same the in social science in social principals in. That's what the troll metoo for some writings of Liu Chappel, who was true champion of freedom. I think for the first time he's literature talk about the freedom in such a way. That's a different that just they find human individuality dignity. That's nothing that can be changed from the state to me. That was a weakening. I think. That, that's part of the reason I, I was motivated by this desire for freedom. And at the same time, the country as a whole, even with in the communist leadership, they're, they're looking for change for political change, too. And we all bunk in who was the previous leader and Charles young, who was a nominal leader at that time they'll both reform mandate us, right? Yeah. So, so there was consensus for change the that's what's expressed him and square. And that's why it was so exciting for me to join initially, I didn't expect to be a leader. I was kind of reluctant even though befall the demonstration organized. Independent election of the student union he may university that's looking back. That was very significant because that was probably the only direct election ever had on tempers and that. So there was consensus on for we are bound. We want to show our sympathy for we on after he died, and Southern's of people at Ching-ho university. That's top technology squares at temp. Geyser. Nobody was winning to lead. I was kind of what does she do? You know. We all believe this right thing to do, but yet, we want to put our head of so I just stuff. Okay. That's you can follow me. That's how I became the. You've, you've entirely recognized by the government on the most wanted list, and arrested on June thirteenth nineteen eighty nine. Well, Joe folks will stand by for just a moment, because we are talking about the thirtieth anniversary of the massacre of student demonstrators in Beijing's Tiananmen Square and the legacy of that event within China and outside of China around the world. This is on point. This podcast and following message are sponsored by xfinity. Some things are hard to control like over caffeinated co workers other things are easy to control. Like you're in home wifi with xfinity, X fi, set WI fi curfew change your password, and create user profiles all with the x fi app. Another reason why xfinity is simple easy. Awesome go online. Call one eight hundred xfinity or visit a store to learn more restrictions apply. Mitch McConnell has become a champion for conservatives. But back in the day, he wants got support from groups like labor unions market down as one of the worst things I've done my see thought about over the years. Jill thank about every time I see his face Mitch McConnell new series from embedded subscribe now. This is on point. I Magnin Chuck Roberti, we're talking this hour about the thirtieth anniversary of the massacre of pro democracy. Demonstrators in Beijing's Tiananmen Square. The military action began on June fourth of nineteen Eighty-nine against those demonstrators on June fifth of nineteen eighty nine thirty years ago today, there's that image that went around the world of a single solitary man emerging from the crowd in TNN square he has never been identified and his fate is unknown to this day. But this is the man who wore a white shirt, black pants carried to shopping bags and stood before a line of tanks, stopping them. Cold reporter, Richard Roth described the scene later that night for the evening news. The man was alone tank was not. It wasn't just a single tank. He stopped there were eighteen tanks armored carriers in this convoy. And while he talked to the crew and ignored the gunfire he stopped all of them. One man alone. Of course. Can't stop an army except for a moment. That's exactly what happened here for three minutes in the middle of the day, an army was stopped by a man who stood still became known as tank man, his fate, still unknown. So what is the legacy of Tiananmen Square thirty years later, both inside of China as the nation has embraced economic reforms but not the political reforms that sparked those protests, thirty years ago. What's its legacy worldwide? I'm joined today by Joe funk, swo-. He is one of the twenty one student leaders of the hundred eighty nine protests. He was arrested on June thirteenth eighty nine imprisoned for a year in China, then moved to the United States in nineteen ninety five Joe FOX will let me just briefly ask you a question. I have some other guests, I want to bring in, but I do want to ask you. What do you think the legacy is of Tiananmen Square inside China for the Chinese people today? Still in China today. This is saying, as a people's call for Justice and democracy. Every year people, there will breathe people res-q everything to commemorate Tim, of course, the government want people to forget, but whenever there's, you know, a protest that touch on this issue, people look back for inspiration from TM and then to unity ni-. There's no doubt about it. But of course, for younger generation, most of them, don't really know history. Right. Oh, they're so afraid to touch on it, even if they are studying here in United States. But when I talk to them directly, and when they knows the full scope, the response comp. Titley positive and strong. Because that's what China needs even today. Well, Joe folks will hold on, for just a moment. Because what you're saying about the government wanting, especially the young people of China to forget is a perfect segue to our next guest, who's joining us now from Culver City, California, and the studios of NPR west Jacci Awang joins us. She's a China researcher at Human Rights Watch who divides her time between Hong Kong and New York. We have a link to her piece, headlined, human rights, activism in PEOs, and posting them square China that link is on point radio dot org. Jacci awang. Welcome to you. Thank you so much for having me. So you were what one year old in one thousand nine hundred nine yes. And but you grew up in China. So how old were you when you first heard about what happened in June of nineteen eighty nine after when I graduate from high school? So at that time there were a lot internet cafe bars. So people just go, there, young people. They like to surf on the internet. So I found it to like by chance. And I saw those pictures of blood. It was really shocking and gory and confusing disorienting because it doesn't make sense to you. So you get very interested in, you know what's knowing what's going on. So you searched about the stuff? Yeah. So so you were in a in a Chinese Internet cafe. Yeah. Yeah. At that time, the internet is not that sensor. Oh, okay. I was I could've still use Google at the time. Now. People can use Google and you were were you in Beijing or, where in China were you when I was my hometown, injure jam province. Okay. So you said you were shocked when you first saw these images never prior to that in your life had this ever been discussed at home on the street in school. No, I had never heard anything but there was one half sentence in the textbook in the history textbook in high school. It mentioned that there was a disturbance like happened in the spring of nine hundred ninety nine but doesn't doesn't generate any? Interesting interested or curiosity. He just, you know, he just in there and you don't feel anything about it. It's it was described as a disturbance in eighty nine aghast Orban's. Okay. And so. What seeing these images and understanding that such a major event had happened in your nation? Not that long before. How did it change your view of, of China? That, you know, that incident really made me realize they extend the Chinese government is willing to go to suppress dissent, even completely peaceful dissent, and you would wonder you know, why, why would you think that it, it won't happen again? Did you did you feel though at the time prior to seeing those images and learning about the massacre? Did you feel that your life wasn't a live with the sort of freedom and an openness that you had desired because Joe funk swell was telling us earlier that prior to nineteen Eighty-nine, there was this reformist movement in the Chinese government. I'm just wondering post, cinnamon as a young person did you did you sense that, there were any freedoms that you desire, that you couldn't have? Yes, you know, when I was in high school, I felt repressed because I felt I couldn't express, my opinion and couldn't do, right. What I wanted to write for school essay. But I didn't have the vocabulary to express. Why something is wrong but I didn't feel comfortable. I didn't like school then, you know, I went to I went to college, you start to learn about stuff, you know, that was because we, we don't have the freedom of expression. Deny was empowered poverty was the language for why I felt depressed when I was younger and where did you go to college in China, Georgia improv, okay? And China's well so, so the discovery of what had happened in June of nineteen Eighty-nine did that change the trajectory of your life? Yes. Because I think, you know, that is part of how I felt about there's a lack of freedom of expression on lack of freedom of in association. So, you know, I just felt that I need to leave the environment as a person I wanted to go to a place that there's freedom of expression that I can't say what I want to say, I can write what I want to write without fear. That's why apply to graduate school in the United States. And I wanted to the US. Well, so, you know, Joe Fong swell, right? Yes. Yes. And met him in the US. Okay. So, so talked me about what that was like meeting of a student demonstrator, who was who was there. One of the organizers of this massive of pro democracy uprising. What did you to talk about? And how, how did that have an impact on? You. I met funk soul much later years after I got to know event. So we didn't really discuss about the event. But, you know, I met him the last time I met him was in last winter, and we had dinner and he was talking about, we're going to organize the commemoration activities and the way he, he talks about the event, it was just very moving how he has persisted in the past thirty years to make people young people like me to remember this event and is just very moving how he has precipitate just it's very inspiring. Well, drew, folks who, when you hear a yacht Wong's story about the sorta transformation, she underwent when she accidentally discovered about what had happened in Tiananmen Square. What does that make you think about all the young people in China today who still either who still actually don't know because we've seen newsra? Reports of, of western reporters recently in tenement square walking around asking young Chinese people about about whether or not, they knew of the of the, the tragedy. And in fact, I wanna play a little bit of, of tape here about that, because CBS news recently did exactly this correspondent, Elizabeth Palmer visited Tiananmen Square and listen to what happened when she tried to show young Chinese passers by a photo of the demonstration. Nice. This picture is in which country. Minutes later, the police showed up and in the end detained held ups for six hours that CBS news is Elizabeth Palmer who was detained as she said for six hours, merely for showing photos of the tenement square massacre. So Joe functional. How do you respond to to that, that present in China in China right now? Yeah. That's very side. It's tragic that Chinese young people wouldn't even know you know, this is part of Chinese history. It's also. Very important. Heritage in its our couch. Oh, gene. Let's there that's like surgically cut off now. That's why I think for me. I really appreciate. Here in the United States we have the sanctuary to preserve this part of Chinese tradition. I'm set of communist rule. And yesterday I talk about this at the conversion here in said. The firewall that's the most important hurt. Now we have to remove it, tear down this wall. It's more than the slavery. It's, you know, the digital upgrade and that's a key people allowed access, you know, like what your to who's about to? They will draw conclusion themselves. Well, forgive me for interrupting, but we, we have a lot of callers who remember what happened in one thousand nine hundred nine and I just want to get a couple of them into to share their stories. So let's go to Nicole, who's calling from buffalo. Buffalo New York. Nicole, you're on the air. Hi. Go ahead and call. Hi. Yes. So I remember that time I was actually fourteen years old, and I was probably coming into some little co consciousness. And to me was a day when the human spirit was just kinda crushed everywhere and just horrific and I was just horrified. And what was really poignant for me was that same night. I went to a Neil young concert, and he performed Ohio and dedicated to the survivors, then the victims of Tiananmen Square massacre and talked about parallels between that and all state, then it was just such a moment. We'll Nicole thank you so much for your call. Let's go to Steven who's calling from Windham. Connecticut. Steven you're on the air. Hey, I, I guess recently called the goddess of democracy. So reminiscent of the statue of liberty with the students waving banners in front of now with so profound at the time I made it was. Really? Really profound it shocked me. But I, I wanna I wanna take it up and that's level. There's a lot of talk about, like stopping students Chinese students coming to the United States. And, and I'm so opposed to that because the, the students have been coming to New England a long time now and they've really helped, you know, the communities around us and the power of their ideas. You know it's been going back and forth for decades now. I think that's just the to what happened chairman square think we should going down that path will Stephen. Thank you so much for your call. Let me bring in one more guest here. Mary Gallagher joins us. She's with us from Ann Arbor, Michigan. She's a professor of political science director of the center for Chinese studies at the university of Michigan. She studied Chinese politics, democracy and human rights, and she studied abroad at Nanjing university in China in nineteen eighty nine Mary Gallagher, welcome to you. Thank you. Thanks for having. So let me also bring this question of the legacy of Tiananmen Square up to today, given the economic reforms, the almost seemingly miraculous economic reforms that have transformed China in the intervening thirty years versus the continued political crackdown on dissent, there, do you see the possibility of anything like a tenement square scale protests happening in modern China today. Well, I think of you. Look at the nine hundred ninety s and the two thousand up to the most recent last five years, or so, with the arrival of president Xi Jinping, the new leader of the, the current leader of China in the nineteen nineties, and in the two thousands there continued to be social change in China there continued to be political ideas, and movements, but people just got more strategic about about it. They were more careful to keep their protests localized and to keep their demands really focused on concrete demands. Like for workers rights, or for lawyers and legal rights. But, and so there was, I think a continued kind of opening, however, in the last five to six years. What we've seen is a real increase in political repression across the board. And also the use of surveillance and technology in such a way that is preemptive such that I don't believe such a large. Scale movement could ever happen again in China under the current political system is see I ask that because I, I, I have this quote here from Robert Daly, a former US diplomat to China, who has recently said, today's China is a consumerist society due to those economic forms. So he claims you don't have the same kind of idealism that you had been one thousand nine hundred nine what do you think about that? I think it's, it's true. I mean, it's not it's, it's true to some degree. I think at the same time like I said, people have become more concrete about their demands. They've become more strategic about what they want partly because they realized that the government will not tolerate demands for things like that were being demanded in one thousand nine hundred nine four freedom for democracy. But people will talk about the fact that they want a safer workplaces they will talk about they want cleaner water and cleaner food. They'll talk about that they want the ability to protect their property rights. So I don't think it's the case that people are solely focused on materialism, and consumerism and China. It's absolutely not the case, people really do have concrete political demands, but they are very constrained, by the system and that system has become more repressive and actually smarter repression, which makes it very difficult for people to organize. I see yet you Wong. We've just got about thirty seconds before I have to take another break here. But is this, how you see the current sort of state of, of human rights? Activism in China. Yes, I totally agree with professor going while students, you know, they don't demand for necessarily demand for like democracy. Or in those big ideas, they're very concrete on the thing, the demand, which are like women's rights, Labor's rights. Well yet yo Wong, and Joe funk swo-, and Mary Gallagher standby for just a moment. We are talking about the thirtieth anniversary of the massacre of pro democracy demonstrators in Beijing's tenement square and what the legacy of that is both inside of China and worldwide. Find us online at on point radio dot org or Twitter and Facebook on point radio. We'll be right back. This is on point. The fact that in two thousand and nineteen. We're having this debate about measles, vaccine, makes my head want to explode, which is tennis. Strange really strange place in the only people speaking up the parents, endless thread, the podcast from WBU are Boston's NPR station and read it brings you a special series on the history of vaccines in antibac- Sers, subscribe on apple podcasts, or wherever you listen. When's the last time you had a really good workout? None of your vice apps. But if your brain I'm Sean Covey dot com. Host of hidden brain. Listen every week. And flex your mind. This is on point. I'm Meghna Chuck Roberti. We're talking this hour about thirty years after the massacre in Beijing's Tiananmen Square. I'm joined today by Joe funk, swo-. He's one of the twenty one student leaders of the nineteen eighty nine student protests in Tiananmen Square is president of the human rights. Charity humanitarian China now, which he co founded in two thousand seven yet yo Wong joins us as well. She's a China researcher at Human Rights Watch and Mary Gallagher's with us. He's professor of political science and director of the center for Chinese studies at the university of Michigan. Well, let's listen to the sound of tens of thousands who gathered in Hong Kong's, Victoria park on Tuesday night for a vigil, marking the thirtieth anniversary of the tenement square massacre, the English language, Hong Kong, free press broadcast the ceremony live, which included this moments where moment I should say, we're demonstrators laid a wreath of flowers at a pillar of remembrance in the center of the park. On both sides of the reefa flowers, it says the fem- for tonight's candlelit vigil, the people will not forget vindicate June fourth Justice will prevail. That is how Tiananmen Square is being remembered in Hong Kong on Sunday, though. China's defense minister away from her justified. What had happened in Tiananmen Square three decades ago, he was doing a QNA at the annual Asian defense summit in Singapore, and we should know that the voice, you'll hear is actually one of his interpreter Holcombe. You say that to China, did end the handle him incident appropriate there is conclusion of that incidence status than his that incidents. Was political turbulence and the central government to measures to stop the turbulence, which is a cracked policy because of the propensity of the government's China has enjoyed stability and department. And if you visit China, you can bet understand that part of history, Joe funk, swelled. How do you respond to that? I mean, here's the Chinese defense, miniter, say, minister, saying the suppression of political turbulence is one of the things that's led to China's more recent prosperity. That's completely wrong. I mean I it just happened. It doesn't mean that suppression itself cost here development actually immediately after the crackdown. The economic reform was considered one of the crimes of Charles theon and. Him and protesters if you look at, for example, change sheet Holmes report as the head of the Marshall implementation, he even told the meeting with Milton Friedman was a problem, and there's also listed students call for privatization that was part of the cramp immediately after the crackdown for three years. The they were going backwards on every front. And but of course, it was later, when Deng realize the he's facing a real crisis that he began to push to resume the economic reform that put China back on the track. But let me see other the other aspect of this statement, it is very important. Want to know thirty years ago, it the Chinese government, basically, they cleared wall on Chinese people. So the, the statement by we from basically reiterate that the government is at war. This explains a lot for thirty years, the extent where they can just brutal as people in whatever we. And also, it's manifested by the fact that the spent we mow on this. So called stability fund, then defense, the national defense, which also growing dramatically right? Well, Jacci Awang, would you like to comment on that? Because in, in hearing what Jo Foxworth saying, one of my first thoughts is, there are specific examples of the continuing crackdown of the Chinese government on certain groups in, in China, like, the, the weavers in western China. I mean what he said it was a comp- of, you know, she told him machine for set aside, all the rational calculation in a rational rash, reasoning. I mean the idea of having tanks rolling over peaceful, peaceful demonstrators bodies. How can you say this? How can this be justified? But I think the sad thing that I think a lot of young people of my age, they kind of buy into this narrative, because they all the images are the truth are censored. So you just hear narrative on the government, and they feel, okay? Yeah. There were some disturbance turbans, maybe the government it was the right thing for the government to do. So this is a kind of a sad thing. Well, Mary, go. You're the end of, of from hose statement, also, I think, is particularly interesting where he said, if you visit China, you can understand that part of history implying. Is he implying that the in his view in the Chinese government? View. The, the world's does not understand how China operates I mean you you've visited China multiple times even just very recently. How does that, that particular line strike you? I thought it was a very interesting comment. I think it's a indication of the increased confidence of the current leadership and their ability to say things that are much more in the face of both to Chinese democracy advocates all around the world as well as other countries that might might put pressure on China to change its political system. So I really think it's a, a sort of interesting indication of this increased confidence, and that increased confidence comes from this idea that if you go to China, you will see the benefits of continued communist party rule from one thousand nine hundred nine on until now. And I think that is actually like, yo said it is per per persona of too many people not just young people, but to many people in China who now believe that China's growth over the last thirty years or forty years since reforms nine hundred seventy eight have been the most successful in the world. Who your true, would you would you want to respond to that as, as the person who was just a child, when nine hundred eighty nine happened? Yeah, I agree. I think a lot of people because, you know, we grew up with material comfort, and life was getting better in a better when we growing up, and, you know, without accessing to the truth, you know, saying the image in brutal brutality, you know, buy this buy into this narrative, you know, like, you know, this, this desks, or unfortunate things happen to some people is necessary for the economy development. Shuli. Yes, some, some amid a good come. And they're in China is facing economic downturn. Now will kill people just to restart the injury. Wow. That is powerful question. Well, let me go back to the callers here Susan is calling from Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Susan you're on the air. Yes. Thank you. I had a question about the, the legacy of Tiananmen Square. And I was wondering, if anyone has ever looked at the effect on China of the loss of all these educated, college students, and all the leaders and either through death at in Tiananmen Square or through loss as in people leaving the country like Joe Susan. Thank you for your call a defunct soy. Would you like to respond to that? Of course it's a huge tragedy for the country as a whole an impetus for its people who are pay their face and. Keep you fighting for truth. It's definitely a very long hard, journey very lonely, too. So I don't know. Actually, on the cumulative level. I know a lot of amazing stories on the personal rival foot some. I mean look at the shop. All he, he was Columbia, visiting scholar thirty years ago. He went back and he died, imprisoned Nobel peace laureate. Now's Ord almost forgot about him. That's what's facing everyone. You know who didn't surrender? Well, Mark Ono goes has Mary here. I think it's a really interesting question, and it was a concern of the Chinese government in the nineteen ninety s that they were losing their students, particularly as China grew wealthier many people who are much younger undergraduates began to go overseas for education, a particularly to the United States and that has continued to increase the now Chinese students make up the largest body of international students in the United States. And as your earlier, caller referenced the Trump administration is now calling for decreases in, in, in those students more scrutiny of visa policies to, to reduce Chinese students coming here, and I agree with the caller that it's an absolute tragedy for the United States that we would turn people away, who come here to access higher education, but also to access a society that is much freer and open, right? Well Martin is call. From lighthouse point, Florida. Martin you're on the air. Hello, I, I'd like to congratulate or praise. Mr. Joe funk swo- for having the courage of his convictions to be a patriot and try to affect change in China takes a lot of courage to do that. Given the history of the Chinese government of oppression and suppression events like the what happened in gentleman square, you mentioned earlier, the CBS news ish issue with respect to how what happened in gentlemen. Thirty years ago is all but a memory, you can't find anything about it on the internet, which, you know, it has some interesting connotation to the younger generation in China, who represent the future. My comment is now worldwide we're considering a lot of countries including the United States work considering buying five. G network, which is the next generation of internet service from a company named Weiwei, which is in China now given China's history and suppression and, and essentially control or exercise control over con companies in China. Why would we even consider buying a piece of equipment that could have some fallacies or some some weaknesses as far as Curie given China's desire to control the narrative on everything related to what's going on in China, including dissidents? Well Martin, thank you so much for your call. And what way isn't just any Chinese company? Right. It's, it's a massive China's company, which as far as I understand, is the is a point of considerable pride for the Chinese people. But the United States is pushing back rather hard. The Trump administration's pushing back rather hard against while way. It's one of the sticking points in our escalating trade war between the two countries here. So, so Mary Gallagher. You would you just like to respond to what Martin saying about the. Disconnected. He sees. I think it's an important point to raise that. I think there are other areas where not just wow away, but in surveillance facial technologies, different ways in which governments can surveilled their own citizens. China's a leader in that technology. And I think other governments should be concerned about it as well as other other societies. There are other ways in which China can export censorship through the power of its market. So there have been instances where academic journals and books that are now being electrically published online publishers are often. Collaborating with publishers in China and censoring, material online often at the request of, of the government. So there is, I think, more and more concern about the, the model that China has developed some people call it state, capitalism people. You know, obviously, communist party that runs the country but it is a system where the government has much more power in the economy and much more leverage over its company. So the question with hallway is, if hallway is asked to do something by the Chinese government, could it say, no, right? You know, we just have a few minutes left here and I will I'm obviously, I am not a deep scholar of Chinese history, especially considering Chinese histories many thousands of years long. But, but I'm still wondering about whether or not it's too easy for us in the west to sort of wag our fingers about China, when we're focusing on certain particular events in the nation's history because let's. Be honest. The west is failed in multiple times in its rigorous protection of human rights as well. But in Maryvale, maybe I'll just ask you this very briefly. Sometimes when you is it also possible to look at China as a nation that through. Sometimes tragic brute force has affected massive transfer transformations. I mean I'm thinking about the cultural revolution and is in. It's not a simple black or white thing. I mean is ten does tenement square, and what happened in one thousand nine hundred nine fall in that same arc. Or was it a distinctly different thing? That happened in eighty nine. A different than the cultural revolution in terms in terms of, like it was an active brute force. But that, that was it was a step along the way to the China that we have today. And that's why we heard the Chinese members of the Chinese government or perhaps, even some Chinese people say today that it was the right thing to do. I think it's, it's, it's not a black and white issue and China presents a big challenge to western democracies because it can demonstrate that it has been economically successful. It has largely in the last thirty years helped its population become better off. They have more material benefits, obviously, and an even in terms of society that China's more open society now certainly than it was in the nineteen seventies. And it has changed dramatically. And the, the, the contradiction is that it is also a society that is increasingly repressive, very, politically repressive. It is detaining perhaps up to a million people Muslim minorities in Incheon, John as you already discussed. And it is a challenge to western governments, to, to grapple with both sides of, of China's miracle, the economic miracle and the continued political repression will. Oh, folks. Well, we only have a couple of seconds left thirty seconds or so what is it that you want listeners hearing you now to, to come away with thinking about thirty years after tenement square? It is a black and white issue. There's no middle ground between. Evil in an injustice. What the China is today, and what we'd be in the future at largely defined by what happened certainly years ago. That's why it's so important to remember well, but back, well, Joe funk will one of the twenty one student leaders in the eighty nine student demonstrations in tenement square. Thank you so much for joining us. And yet, yo Wong, a China researcher at Human Rights Watch, thank you, as well. And Mary Gallagher director of the center for Chinese studies at the university of Michigan. Thank you all. I'm Meghna Chakrabarti. This is on point.
Episode 617: Strivers, Sycophants, and Nincompoops
"For April twenty-seventh Twenty twenty. It's the overthinking and podcast episode. Six hundred seventeen strivers sycophants and nincompoops welcomed over thinking it where we subject the Popular Culture. To a level of scrutiny. It probably doesn't deserve for the greater glory of website. The over thinkers are like your comrades engaged in a glorious revolution to put the means of podcast production into the hands of the listeners. We'll do that later on in this hour but first let me introduce the panel. We have with US Comrade Ben Adams Ben. Welcome to glorious over thinking it. Podcast all glory goes to Otis Dear Leader Otis. We have comrade Mark Lee. Welcome comrade to overthinking podcast. Matthew on over thinking it podcasts you and there is no Pete Fenzl who what. Fenzl non-person Pete. Fenzl has never been on podcast. Give us a second. I gotTa Go Photoshop Photograph and I am listening. I knew he was a traitor from the START COMRADE MATT. Rather yes pete. Pizza Pizza Pencil has been sent to father. No He's been sent to a glorious glorious reeducation-camp called Fatherland Yes. You've alluded to it a couple of times on the PODCAST. But between the last podcast this when Pete became a dad. Congratulations Pete. We'll be hearing from you as soon as you're able and are just so thrilled for you starting out on this incredible journey so Well done and We'll talk to you when we talked to you. Look we are all still at home? Binge-watching things on binge-watching things on the various streaming services and this affords us a wonderful opportunity to pick up some films and talk about them that we haven't been able to To address you know up to this point we've taken advantage of that on on some recent episodes and you know to so we decided to do something. That was a little timely. We generally stay away from politics on over thinking it largely because we want to keep the conversation if not light than sort of friendly cordial and sometimes really challenge when you're talking about pod about politics but on this podcast my friends in this time. We're a despotic. Autocratic leader saying things that are frankly nonsensical to to even to all but the most rabid partisan party loyalists can do as he pleases can go as he pleases. And his unchecked unquestioned unbalanced by any countervailing power in government. And of course. I'm talking about North Korea. Where whose leader has been a little bit awol has been a little bit off the map and we're not sure if we're not sure what. The news is out of North Korea at the moment and seems a little a little. If for for the leader of that country well. We decided to talk about a film that came out over a year ago but that we have not had a chance to address on the podcast. That is our Mondo in new cheese. The death of Stalin that follows the sort of the last days and immediate aftermath of the death of the Soviet leader and what the inner circle of the leadership of that country did after did after his death. So you know it's it's an Armando in NUCCI movies so it is not it is not particularly solemn But it you know are Mondo in Nucci. The creator of veep and of in the loop the film or the thick of it. The television show that that film was drawn from and it was a fantastic suggestion from from Ben. Ben What led you to what led you to think of this film other than it is available on Netflix. Honestly it was seeing the news about the potential succession in North Korea. And nobody really having any idea of what's going on the possibility that I know his sister's involved and I had seen death of stalling awhile back and that was what immediately came to mind was just the the absurdity in an autocratic system of where you want everyone to distrust everyone else and there's no real institutions what happens when the Dear Leader unexpectedly falls down on the floor dead because of a nasty note they got a record. Also doing specific the the lack of institutions is caused by the cult of personality right. The leader is that you could even call it right. Well yeah it sort of right things sort of lurch back and forth and like one of the one of the funniest in this movie is how everyone is like. The Sky is blue. It's green comrade. Yes it seems awfully green today. The Sky Today seems very green. Indeed right the people's ability to kind of make a statement to kind of establish a proposition and then two like just say the exact opposite of that with full you know with full conviction Half a second later and like the lurching the lurching back and forth or like the idea the Khrushchev goes home and drunkenly dictates to his wife. What he said at Stalin's dot the night before so that you know if he is punished or sort of you know take a task for anything that he said he sort of aware at least everything that came out of his mouth and he's he's ready with you. Know retorts a rebuttals for what might come at him like things things like that kind of the coping strategies that you develop under those absurd conditions. Were I mean a source of humor in the in the film but are really terrifying if you sort of think about them in any kind of depth right? A lot of the humor in this film comes from the horror of living in that system and I think the the scene that really lands that the hardest is the one where there's the executioner going down the line shooting. People and just kind of a random point gets interrupted until new plan. These people aren't being executed anymore but he accidentally shoots one guy. In the meantime the the few seconds it took for the entire country to change. Course you know there's an actual death a murder that occurs onscreen one. Yeah it's like well I have news. Okay hold on one second boom. What's Your News Tab? It's terrible I shouldn't. I shouldn't laugh at it. It's interesting like the way the way in which this is. Funnier not is is. Are you sure you shouldn't laugh at that? Let's let's talk about the right. Is that a joke. That particular sequence there. It's incredibly bleak a- absolutely and and keep using this word absurdity right and that is perfectly natural reaction to laugh at the absurdity. So let me do that. So I'll just add by the way for context right. It's been like a year or so since I've seen this movie so I can't recall my specific reactions on things but You know like uncut uncomfortable. it's just comfort is is certainly emotional. Remember feeling a lot and just kind of like Chortling at respect for the wit of what was going on there. But did you laugh? And that's when he thought I own parts of the movie. Yes I absolutely did. Look one one like say what you will about the current moment in discourse one of the things that I appreciate about the current moment discourses. I feel really held to account for being sensitive to people's actual suffering and not trivializing it. Because I don't experience it right and that's you could say well Matt that's just a part of human decency but you know I don't know I think that you know kind of we. We have a we have spheres of concern that are concentric circles around ourselves. And you know the old joke is like Tragedy is when I stubbed. My Toe comedy is when you slip on a banana peel and break your arm right like an and so there there. There is kind of a different level of of Response to things like this and like it's true that the the the real moral heroes that we admire in human history or the people who kind of push that concentric circle as far out as possible to encompass all of all of humanity as you know as a sort of family or or you know as people you would care about as you care about your family and About yourself and indeed. This is like a collective banana peel. Yeah sure exactly. Well you know I mean it's like you know it's love your neighbor as yourself as a kind of high gold standard moral teaching and to the extent like I said. There's a great deal of absurdity in this moment in in discourse which someone else can talk about but the thing all talk about is how grateful. I am to be to be corrected by You know corrected by the discourse. I think it's I think it's good to sort of acknowledge people suffering now. That long way around the barn stammering disquisition was about like. I have concerns about laughing at something that involves real suffering right like if if you're that guy's wife who's like the last guy to be executed by accident you know because the news didn't didn't reach the death camp Quickly enough that that Stalin was dead in. Hey we're just we're calling a pause on the political executions for just a minute just to take stock of how these things are playing in the provinces. If you're that guy's wife it doesn't seem particularly funny and yet like what what's funny is what's funny is the capriciousness of the universe. Like what's funny is the capriciousness of all life and the and the reason it's funny is because. I think we can have a kind of solidarity in are powerless against a lot of forces in life and the laugh is sort of a coping mechanism about that. It's a laugh instead of you know. I don't know becoming becoming paralyzed with with rage or sadness or fear Ben. What do you think a really good modern example of towing the line I think is? Are you guys familiar with the Arcade News? Twitter account vaguely yes. Filling cylinders is a great twitter account. It's run by a couple of bloggers that apes the propagandistic style of communist regimes tweets ridiculous stuff coming from the voice of the Democratic People's Republic of China. So sometimes it'll just be random things like supreme leader Kim Jong Hoon shoots nineteen in golf or supreme leader. Kim Jong Inspects beat harvest. And a Lotta Times. It'll be like a a spin on the latest news cycle in the US but it will be couched. North Korean terms and the the bloggers that run. It have been well first of all. The main humor of the account comes from the long history of even mainstream news outlets being duped by by the account. Thinking that it's real and so- running these tweets as if it's actually coming from North Korea so that's where the real humor. The account comes from the the bloggers. I've seen talk on twitter before about how they are very sensitive to the fact that there are millions and millions of real people that suffer every day under the regime of North Korea. And so there are. There's a tension between the humor that they're trying to do against the real life suffering of people that live in North Korea. And it's something that it's been interesting to to see those those guys talk about how they try to navigate that by not making late of the plate of the people of North Korea but rather trying to poke fun at the ridiculous over the top narrative and rhetoric of these kinds of regimes. Yeah I was looking today at. There's a there's a piece on the on the New York Times right now with the the kind of uncertainty of where Kim Jong UN is and like there was a ten minute video piece on the New York Times. Homepage about like. How do we track where the leader of North Korea is there? You know they talked about all the like todd light images and stuff that they have like outside of intelligence like you just look just with information that's available via satellites and stuff like that and like where motorcades are what the guard rotations are at at certain places and talking about kind of using this and the knowledge that they might be. You know putting up a smokescreen in certain places like to to try to surmise What's going on or at least the kind of the location the movements of of the leader and like it was a very interesting sort of intellectual puzzle. And if that's your job it sounds like a kind of a fascinating problem in in kind of information gathering and intelligence development but like I I also it it did hit me and do as I was watching it this morning. About all the people who live in this you know premodern environment and and you know suffer at the hands of regime that kind of reserve reserves opulent luxury for themselves and you know but has people. I do not not only Lacking the will to kind of politically organizer express themselves freely but also like starving. You know in different parts of the country and it it just. It just struck me again. Like how what? What a what a world it is where you know. I can't I don't know I feel like what a what a world it is where I can't go on a zoom call without someone like accidentally taking their phone into the bathroom and forgetting to turn the camera off you know on the one hand dot level of of information overload and then a whole other nation of millions millions of people who live under these. This extreme information drought in this extreme kind of like freedom drought so humor is like what we're getting is is a way is a coping mechanism for all sorts of different things right for the tragedy. The individual tragic accident on screen. And then like you just absurdity of the situation in. North Korea right with the mass suffering and then like just the warp society there. But that's like interesting that that's a contemporary Situation that were most keying in on now writing. The North Korea is a reality thing in two thousand twenty as ridiculous as that may seem yes humor to cope with the fact that worker exists in two thousand twenty but these are events that are what like some seventy odd years ago right. So there's a ton of distance between the events there are seeing now. Let's talk about that for for a second right like like when you make us a Stalin comedy dark comedy or satire or whatever you WANNA call it in twenty twenty. What are you going for? I mean is this like is it simple enough to say that because even since the fall of the Cold War and especially since the rise of Putin that like Hollywood has an easy punching bag in Russia and that like just the key into anti Russian sentiment in the West over the last decade or so less than fifteen years like? Let's make an anti-russian movie and Ha- like those those many russkies there was something else going on? I sort of I remember when Django and Jane came out and we talked about it on the podcast. I sort of poked raised a challenge to the film that I'm not sure we need a film that depicts the institution of slavery in graphic detail. The argument I was making. Is that like? It's the argument that that John Luka Dr made about Steven Spielberg in Schindler's list. He said you know Steven Steven Spielberg is terrible. Because he was allowed to to rebuild Auschwitz and Hollywood is terrible because they let Stephen Spiel Steven. Spielberg do this. Terrible thing and the idea that sort of depicting a historical horror is tantamount to not exactly endorsing it but kind of like depicting it kind of keeps it alive and real in its. It feels powerful. You know in in a way that that maybe it shouldn't tear it. Feels like it is still real in a way that that that maybe it shouldn't and can't help but sort of celebrate it or make it seem you know. I'm struggling to articulate what what it means but just in the same way that lies this purse. Exercise of power would has this incredible ability to come to life now and by. What did you do with that? All you can make amazing dinosaurs. You Make Star Wars or you can make outfits. Okay I'll give you build a scarecrow. You're you're worried that there's no such thing as an anti-stalin movie right so I was like. Is there such thing as an anti-slavery movie when we were talking about about Django unchained and this was post inglorious bastards and peace point to me? I'm sorry non. It occurred to me out of nowhere. There was no non-person who who gave me the idea. No with pizza head on the on the podcast was the time it was like okay so there are historical evils and there are Quentin Tarantino movies given that there is a thing called. A- Quentin Tarantino movie. Of course there needs to be a Quentin Tarantino movie in which slavery in which that plantation house gets like blowed up spoiler alert for Django unchained. You know like of course. There's a Quentin Tarantino movie. Where we where we kill Hitler and the thing I think and I had a similar reaction to the death of Stalin movie where it's of course there's an Armando IANNUCCI movie about the death of Stalin. Right about the idea that no matter how fearsome no matter how fierce the results of these people acting On you know on the country and like you know. Tens of millions dead in in Stalin's time and like no matter how awful those consequences don't forget that that the the people doing it are a bunch of holes right are small minded Venal nincompoops. Who can barely who can barely find their ass with hands and a flashlight. That's the institute. I'll I will argue that. A movie like this does does have a good purpose. And I think if you're saying if you're trying to find the the day in why now you know there's there's all sorts of rhetoric. There's all sorts of talk about how democracy is on the wane. How you know. Various sort of autocratic regimes are gaining power in in even Western countries. And we can question whether or not that's true but what whatever the case is there are certainly semi serious people who occasionally pop up to say. Wouldn't it be great if we just had a great man in charge of everything and this movie does a really good job of undermining that not from the heavy-handed perspective or not not even heavy handed perspective but various sober perspective of like Schindler's List? Because of course is shows here's what happens. When bad people are in charge? They kill millions of people. Yeah but it makes it makes the when you make the bad guys the empire. There's a as we know from all the people that really like the empire or argue that the empire is good in Star Wars. There's like a sexiness to it. There's this idea that if you put the the big man in charge maybe he'll be good. Maybe he'll be bad but at least like the trains will run on. Time is the is the argument and with amazing. Right exactly and and we'll and we'll we'll have the Sherpa uniforms and we'll have these crisp refined people running making all the decisions and this movie does a really good job. No it's just a bunch of cowards and sync offense and strivers and petty beer like Khrushchev in particular. I really liked portrait of him in this movie. Because we know that he he becomes this kind of big figure in history. He's The guy who confronts JFK and the Cuban missile crisis and the space race. But in this movie. He's striving bureaucrat. Like he he he would be right at home and Glengarry Glen Ross. Like desperately seeking the glengarry leads yeah exactly and not one of the not one of the top dog characters in Glen Neuro certainly not actually thought I thought bosomy was inspired casting for him because St Lucia me is kind of a buffoon. He's like ridiculous and he has this sort of bug-eyed look that is you know his that is sort of comical but he also has done films and TV where he's very menacing. There is like an undercurrent. There's potential for being very menacing in in St Lucia. Me and I kept thinking about the Cuban missile crisis when I was watching this guy who looked like he was wearing his dad's suit like the shoulder of yeah it was so the shoulders and not only that like he was wearing his pajamas under it for for a second like the shoulders in the suit were just did so much work and kind of making him seem small and like you know trifling and and. Yeah. I kept thinking about the Cuban missile crisis. The whole time. The kind of the undercurrent of menace that undercurrent of menace that that the he could bring to the table even though he didn't display at a single iota of it while he was on screen. Can WE Do a compare and contrast with veep right which we mentioned before earlier neutralize other notable political satire creation. Yeah for sure. One of his other political satire creations right because when you're talking listening qualities of the of the members of the government at the top of the Soviet Union what. What is his driver's Sycophants Nincompoops? An a-hole right that also describes the people we see Involved in federal government in the show veep. Does it not that you guys have seen right? I mean I've seen it. I'm not a huge veep I'm not a huge veep expert norm. I exist like I've said I've caught a dozen episodes or so and I. I get the gist of it right. I mean the difference between this movie and veep is largely just that the people don't have the power to order people murdered but other than that. It's it's it's the same characters except what they do interest in real life in the loop right because that's isn't that about the Iraq war and about how they you know murderer a bunch of people in the Iraq war but I haven't seen enough to know if like Selina Meyer whereas a drone strike or something like that but I think that on that obviously stuff but it's not the it's definitely not cast in the same light. No that's good to hear the I think scene that really has the most veep. Energy is a bit where Khrushchev is trying to switch places with Malikov at the funeral and he does like this awkward. Slide to the side. Remember the scene and he says well. We'll just pretend like it's part of the ceremony that had a very very strong veep vibe where there's just this super awkward moment but trying to dress it up in the close of a formal government ceremony of some kind speaking of close. What do you think of What do you think of the you know astonishing entrance of captain? Gabriel Lorca Himself Jason X. Lets you mentioned the l word on this like I just thought to put out there that star trek discovery. I realized scarred me so badly I had this like irrational hatred of that show at this point so it says a lot that I could still enjoyed debt the stolen in spite of the presence of Lorca in this He's Motassedeq others. Have strong things to say about him as well as as zoo. Kopf who comes in you know the like rack of medals Jangling on his on his chest Ben. Would you think that guy? He he kind of makes the movies from the early line. The I'm smiling but I'm very very upset. And from there. The route that he because he is not a strivers thinking sycophant earned income poop. He's the one extraordinarily competent person involved in this whole whole coup. Because it's interesting if you know the history of it of course I mean like there's a case to be made. He's like one of the greatest generals in history from from a military perspective. I mean He. He won the battle of stolen Grad. So He's one of the few people in the world that can have a chest full of ridiculous metals like that and have it kind of not be ridiculous which and Jason Isaacs man has manages to pull it off. I'm not exactly sure how but he he does a fantastic job with Zuccaro from start to finish. Well it is. I mean he does sort of do him as a like a like a Capitana from committee Adele Arteta where he is a little puffed up. His chest is a little just a little too puffed. He's a little too full of himself. But but as you say like you know he he is a person with sort of real like a real skill real sort of excellence in something and I think that comes. I think that comes across in the film that he's like one of the only people of the kind of the leadership cadre who actually does violence you know and like him sort of punching one of these sycophantic toadies one of these. Obsequious little people in the face Is like almost? There's almost a relish in it. I don't know it's very hard to make an anti cough. Movie cuts such a dashing figure test. Yeah and and that that and then then like Michael Palin is in this movie. You've sort of gotten you've gotten to. British comedy royalty by like include British. Comedy royalty is we have a British listeners. We have you know people all over the British Isles. The please you know. Correct me but it. It is like a sort of elder statesman. Right who's WHO's in there and the way. He is as multi off the way. He is almost like more. He's more invested like You know his wife was on a list. Well no his wife comes back to him. Well no that's it's terrible. That he brought my wife back to me because she was on a list she was she was an enemy of the state. Reminded me of something from one thousand nine hundred eighty four when we did the nineteen eighty-four book club the idea that the you know the kind of hoax perpetuated a hoax perpetuated on the lower on the you know rank and file or on the like the peasant class or on the middle and lower class That that there's kind of an upper class or leadership cadre pulling the wool over there is in in one thousand nine hundred four mix a- you know one of the characters makes the point that the people in charge actually have to believe the lie even more fervently you know Then the people the people who are forced to kind of suffer the worst consequences of the lie you know they they have to kind of believe in in the system and just Michael Palin being funny by being completely straight faced and like well no I don't want my wife fact. She's a traitor. Of course we should. We should take out barrier because like he. He did me this. This act of mercy like releasing my my wife's to me that that trader who was on one of Stalin's lists she's in an enemy of the people that's you know and and The kind of the the way in which the the the people in charge are necessarily self-deceiving Is I don't I don't know if it's hilarious or if it's heroin but it's definitely one of the two what's interesting to watch. How much did the momentum that the lie and the edifice of stolen has and how it's it's kind of has a different half life for different characters because I think that's what we're seeing with. Michael is he takes longer the Michael Palin character Molotov takes longer than the the gross cynics fair barrier and Kercheval to figure out. That's all really is dead. And that means that it's a whole new world than it was yesterday and so that's why you still have the guys who come into the room calamity calamity because Stalin is dead that because they're still afraid that he's going to pop up from the grave and put them on a list because they were insufficiently upset about his death. Yeah right exactly. And that's like that. It's a ruse and that that is the sort of thing you know in that atmosphere of fear and uncertainty like you know sort of lying to each other as sort of catching each other out. You know with quote unquote or or you know. Subterfuge you're sort of false statements as part of what You know as part of how the leader in a situation like that manages to hold onto power by preventing people from forming alliances forming relationships with anyone but With anyone but the leader forming sort of horizontal relationships as opposed to like vertical ones with with the leader. You know it's funny. We brought up veep before in terms of talking about how people are sort of Venal and and obsequious but the I I was thinking a little bit about the wire as I was watching this movie because it was about how institutions Kind of shape the behavior of people but it had a very different emphasis right like what what? David Simon is said about the wire is that the wearer is about in in being about The sort of the illegal illegal illegal and kind of gray area kind of institutions in the city. Baltimore you know the the Homicide Squad of the Baltimore Police Department of a drug selling gang of dockworkers of teachers. You know on like the it goes to show that in the contemporary world and I think this is close to being in quotation. You're compromised always and your ideals are compromised and you're forced to work within the constraints and within the kind of the language the boundaries of whatever institution you have sort of committed yourself to and so no matter how noble you know. No matter how forward thinking you are and I'm thinking of like Kovin here. I forget his rank but He's a captain in the hamster. Damn season you know and Or even like like press Baluyevsky going to be a teacher and realizing that they juke the stats the same way. The police departments do they do it with tech test scores instead of crime. Statistics like that no matter what no matter how. Noble your ambitions your compromised in. You're going to be you know kind of brought back to the level of the mean of the institution because institution has its own logic. This seems to be a little bit different like no matter. How no matter? How fierce the institution no matter how high minded. It's it's ideals I guess right and and you know the ideals of of communism like Marxism are high minded The people instituting those ideals. The individuals are greedy. Are Venal Are you know striving and wheeling dealing and and you know A bunch of kind of untrustworthy gangsters really and small time. Gangsters that at that. And that like it's a slightly different way It's a slightly different way of approaching the problem wires being that you know. High mindedness fails because no matter how high minded the individual the institution grind you down and the Indonesian idea being that no matter how high minded the stated aims of the institution? No matter how high minded the philosophy that undergirds it you get dragged down because people are are greedy and shortsighted in other words. They're they're human beings. I don't know it's me then me. That's an interesting comparison. But I WANNA dig into the high minded aspect a little bit here because like you can get there with the wire right. You know because you have the rule of law you know the the Baltimore government and you know all the robes and the judge and things like that and your baseline rather is like you're just generally conception of what a functioning American society ought to be right all finding good now the the baseline for high mindedness that you talk about in in depth. Stalin is like is more remote from this movie though. You're talking about like I dunno Marxism as it existed like in the communist manifesto and like just a handful of other intellectual circles. Right as opposed to like I don't know what was it like a very fleeting moments in the beginning founding of the USSR. Where like some of that might might have been there all right but like I guess like that. You don't have that much of a juxtaposition within the realm of the death of Stalin as you believe you did in the wire though a confession again like I've I've seen a handful of episodes of the wire so I can't speak authoritatively on that but like we'll get we'll get to you mark. We'll get to you mark the Blinky to watch the wire under quarantine and we're coming for for for the power of the institutions all. You're actually watching the wire right. No matter how you I was I was talking to me. It's going to have a code Mike Cobra while they're not watching the wire wiring. Because right exactly because you have a bunch of you have a bunch of people like me who are like white guy who has seen the wire saying. Oh my God man. If you've seen the wire it's so great. It really gets into all the serious gritty urban problems bed. We cut you off before. What were you about to say the talking about institutions? I wrote a piece for overthinking at once. Comparing chew very different movies to two movies could hardly be more different than the death of Stalin but are about a similar era. The it's a wonderful life and we're call on thirty fourth streets and the the thesis of my piece for over thinking it was that one of the movies is about how America works because the people are good despite bad institutions and one of the movies about how America works because the institutions are good despite the the bad motives of people that are in which was which so so. It's a wonderful life. Says the people are good but the institutions are lousy. Everyone got it. So that's why at the end George. Bailey has to be saved by you know just a bunch of people showing up to his house with money because the institutions have utterly failed whereas in thirty fourth street like all the people except maybe Santa and the little girl are like kind of selfish and Venal just looking out for the bottom line but everything works out OK because it turns out that. What's good for the bottom line is what's good for everybody this movie. I don't think it's hard to disentangle. Because both the people are so terrible in the institutions they are embedded in our so bad. So it's it's very hard to disentangle in this movie which is supposedly the bad peace with the Soviet Union bit have been better with the same institutions if there had been better people or you know you could use stick stolen at the top of a you know a Republican government and everything will turn out okay. This movie doesn't really take a position on that. I don't think no and over thinking it doesn't take a position on whether American society now is a lab for precisely this For precisely this question but but it is. I'll say that it is the is the opinion of of enlightenment. Liberalism that A society with with strong institutions is important. Because you can't always count on people to behave nobly and when you dismantle the institutions that provide a buffer against the action of any anyone individual even when it's a member of your your you know political parties sport doing it like when you Consolidate power in the executive Someone else's going to to use power and maybe not do things not to things that you like so We have we have been talking about the death of Stalin. I it's on Netflix streaming free. We highly commended to you as good viewing for quarantine now pivoting from terrible people to some of the best to people in the world and I'm talking about over thinking it members. I put out the call to members this week to just kind of check in on them and see how doing you know. These are Times that we were not prepared for and were a lot of us under quarantine were at home more. Our social interaction is is a limited and what there is is is vastly changed There are a number of stresses involved in it one of them. Is that like if you are confined to your house. If you know if you're lucky enough to continue working and work family socializing is all taking place In the same physical space perhaps even in the same chair at the same desk. That's that is a stressful collapse of kind of different persona different aspects of the self in on on one another and kind of maintaining the integrity of those different types of you know those different aspects of yourself is is just difficult. You know the the stress of worried about getting seriously sick is difficult. The stress of of losing. Your job is difficult to stress of seeing all kinds of things. You don't need me to remind you of these things. I reached out to the overthinking. Didn't reach out. Oh God I sort of promise like that. And Leverage in a business context in a non physics context are are two words that I've sort of sworn personally never to use and I'm sorry that have broken my solemn vow now I just wanted to give him a pain. Close the loop. We get it all right. So let's drill down the the Okay I'M GONNA circle back to it was telling you before I sent an email out to the people who are who are members asking two things one how you doing like things going. Okay good things not going okay. That's all right to hear about as well I'm I'm curious and I'm concerned so like please. Just give out and let us know how you're doing in to let us know how you're media. Consumption Habits have changed A little bit over the Over the time that we've been generally under stay at home orders though it's not it's not uniform. It's not nationwide and uniform. A lot of us are so. I'm going to read some of our responses and we're GONNA WE'RE GONNA talk about them for a little bit and I. I think that you might see yourself in these You might see yourself somewhere in one or two of these responses so let's start off with a member of over thinking it Shane from Montana Shan. Says I'm surviving. I'm a software developer. So working remotely has been fine. Except I live in rural Montana on satellite Internet so the Ping On. Vpn is horrible. Let me let me jump in. Editorialized Ping means the response time of as like a single packet request response cycle. So what he's saying. Is that even a single round trip of information of which there are hundreds thousands millions tens of millions. You know going back and forth in order to to do normal internet transactions. He saying that like atomic unit of response time is very bad on the VPN. He's using for work so to cope. Shame continues. I've had to pull a lot more files down to my local laptop to work on because SSH over VPN over satellite sucks. There's just a lot of little things my workflow that I've had to adjust and make it a little worse. It's fine to cope. I finally started playing the witcher three. I'm my work laptop right next to gaming pc so when things start taking awhile. Vpn start playing that. There's also been some boring meetings that I may also play video games through. Oh my wife and I finally watched the Orrville. It's weird seeing Seth McFarland acting like a competent starship. Captain we like it. Thank you Shane. I commend Jane for Amazing Amount of multitasking. They're the only way you could possibly out do that. Is If you set up one of those video loops playing on zoom sort of makes it look like you're paying attention so many think manager code as well to canned responses so that you actually speak and say something. I think it was more sort of a proof of concept or from. The joke might be a better way to describe it rather than something you'd actually do to avoid being present on a work meeting that would also plug generally speaking video games and not just like casual phone gains but real video quote Unquote Real Video Games as a good distraction diversion during these times. Because they are. All consuming require all of your concentration. I've been playing half life to that. Seminal frustration shooter from the the the mid `oughts and it is a gripping it's intense A whole lot of fun and you don't think about the horrible things going on the world because there's a scare you. Zombie aliens coming at you and your blink. Shocking get stuff. There's a member who writes in with with a kind of a tough situation. How you do and not well writes. This member started dating navy. Pharmacist keeps me informed of how bad everything is and I get to act as their verbal punching bag when she needs to vent so my tip is just do whatever needs to be done for whoever needs something. Well I also want to make sure that you have a place to vent when when when you need to vent. It's really good to support people but it's also good to kind of like check on your your mental health like it's not just hashtag living your best life. It's it's also that we're no good to each other if we burn ourselves out At the at the most basic level right at the most actionable level Burn yourself out. You can't help anyone else. So if for no other reason than that self care is is important as well as someone who is married to a navy spouse can speak up and say that frequently a supporting someone. Who is you know in in a particular role or or doing something can frequently be actually more difficult than actually the thing because the frequently like the navy is is very much like this? The institution is very much geared towards supporting the person who was in the navy with only a second thought then about okay how about the people around them and so you you dear reader have my permission to occasionally vent your for yourself not just be a punching back. Zach writes in to say in answer to your first question. I'd like to say I'm doing fine. My grandfather once said fine is what you say. When you don't want to burden other people with your problems instead I will say I'm doing tolerably well And that for him nothing yet has become difficult and I found that my financial situation is less and less fraught than I was worried. It would be so. There's a bright spot in that I will admit I'm finding it hard to maintain a daily schedule in a meaningful manner since I do physical Labor yet. The job is not considered essential. I'm laid off with little to do so. That's easy to rectify. I've drawn up a list of minor tasks that I've been putting off for a long time. mostly small things like reorganizing. My desk drawers figuring out how to clean a few stubborn stains. Seen a number of people say they've had trouble keeping one day from flowing into the next night. Vices is not to avoid setting definite time for relaxation when you can in addition to my usual consumption of short and medium firm Youtube Videos. The mean changed my media. Consumption has been To begin binging on British mystery television. Zach Yuma Dude Dude Zak. Yeah sorry dummied editorialize back to this email. I'm currently making my way through the series. Foyle's war starring Michael Kitchen. Well it's not a huge change for me. I realized I've changed how I watched the shows. I find myself rewatching scenes to pay more attention to the acting or count the number of times one character or another hits on a theme or idea central to the episode or series. I admit I have to admit that I've been not consuming as much media actively rather than just having something on in the background for sound because I've been spending time creating this month. April is one of the national novel. Writing Month summer camps so I've been actively writing each day sitting down blocking out time to keep working on reaching my goals also noticed the number of people not just my writing community that have been increasingly creative during the time when youtube channels been encouraging featuring community videos offering technical assistance to help people creating videos starting their own channels. I've seen a number of people mainly on youtube but also twitch who are putting out more content to help other people deal with stress or promote their community together and supporting each other. Just like this one Zach. Thanks a bunch for that. I hope you find. I hope you find a supportive. It's it's great that you have the I honestly like I've been dealing with attention. Span problems that you know Especially since like since. I'm I happen to be looking for work right now. The you know the kind of job search well it's it can be like a kind of a tough slog but like being able to put together like more than forty five fifty minutes of concentrated work together has been a challenge for me and I really commend you. Being able to sit down and and work on a novel which is one of the most solitary It's like a high wire. Act Right writing writing a novel because like anything any kind of attention. Any distraction is is apt to kind of knock you off that high wire so I I commend you and like I said you're my dude. If you're watching that moody British mystery television. I love that stuff. I was really unhappy. That they took shetlander off of off of net flicks and put it on some breeder specific TV streaming service. And I may have to sign up for their free trial in the spirit of the Brits. Do you even more understated about being really unhappy. A trifle disappointed. Perhaps Yeah No. It's true I'm an American anglophile so I'm embarrassing to be around in pups. I really commend everybody. Getting out there and be creative and putting their stuff out on the Internet But the might does it not bog with a mind to imagine how many more people with free time or uploading even more stuff to youtube now whereas before like insane numbers of hours Ruben. Uploaded TO YOUTUBE EVERY SECOND LIKE I dunno like crazy thousand hours of video being uploaded to Youtube. Every minute seconds something like that and yet more more more more It just like you know birdwatching. More and more is being uploaded at the same time it. It works my people mind it does truly does. We're getting some competition to I. I have no idea of. This is to run auditors. One of those things you read on the Internet but supposedly Amazon ran out relatively quickly of podcasting equipment because everybody starts in quarantine. I'm lucky that I'm lucky that we you know we had ours lockdown already. Yeah man it's I read something about Jack box today. The you know the creators of you don't Know Jack who do these kind of online party games where you everyone can kind of play on their phone and people are playing over video conferencing services Apparently there are big times. Used to be like Thanksgiving or something when families were together and would play this game together and then like the Big Day was New Year's Eve when people having New Year's parties would play these jackpots. Party Games Before the countdown. And now they say that like every weekday is like a Thanksgiving and weekends are like bigger than the biggest New Year's eve they ever had before the quarantine people are people are using this game Little tough on their business model because they're probably paying for bandwidth third or compute resources. And that's a game where you buy at once. It's not like subscription so That's the little little tough on the business model. Unless they're getting just a whole bunch of people buying the buying the new games. I guess you put out expansion packs and that's how you do that. Julie writes in to say thanks for asking. Things are good here at twenty seven point two zero three eight degrees north. Seventy seven point five zero one one degrees east near Portland Oregon Julie Longtime Longtime Fan. Giving us the ICBM address really appreciate that. Julia says what's hard working out at home knocking ally. I'm more concerned about gaining the quarantine. Nineteen then getting CV nineteen teaching the elders in the tribe parents and neighbors zoom online banking. And why they don't need to go to Costco Home Depot or really anywhere else. What's not hard being kind and patient? Well good for you Julie. Teasing good for you if that is not hard for you bless bless you And also not hard slicing over your mask like tyra. Banks taught us all increasingly media. Consumption has changed my media. Consumption has changed dramatically. I have no patience for sitting for any long form thing books which I love movies even series that. I'd like to bench though I will admit to watching both strictly ballroom and center stage for the one million time recently instead. It's all youtube all the time. I'm putting my premium service to good use especially Broadway Song. Interpolations and really. I'm draw into drawn into the late night hosts from home clips there killing at Julia. I'm sorry bungled lines on your email. It's all youtube all the time. Putting my premium service to good use especially Broadway Song interpolations and really drawn into the late night hosts from home clips. They are killing. It cheers to all of usually says the pilot cast is a highlight of my week. Wash your hands Julie. Ps One more thing. If I hear the word unprecedented one more time well Julie. The podcast is highly of our week as well too. So we're glad that share that with other people And the other thing is that the unprecedented is that. Do we say that ordinary people say that no? It's this unprecedented quarantine his unforeseeable? You know I mean uh be massive discourse we would not repeat where like unprecedented so many times. I mean that would be unprecedented in this. Podcast would it not be no? Yeah Dad But this is. This is an unprecedented level of engagement. I think we're getting from from our members and I'm really appreciative appreciative to them. Is it though truly unprecedented? Is it really really in human history and even modern human history? I'll go with yes but you'll probably keep moving in our life in our lifetimes. Maybe yeah sure okay. Yes about one hundred years ago. Spanish flu blah Blah Blah but very different In one thousand eight hundred thousand twenty Blah Blah Blah Blah. You know what's different? They didn't have one thousand nine hundred nine youtube and they didn't have the youtube incredibly thirsty Nag. As get you to subscribe to the premium service which is great. I must say and probably worth it because the youtube as horrible an incredibly repetitive and increasingly intrusive man is youtube. Thirsty asking you to see the little trial. Could this little button you? Why don't you? Why don't you throw the money's wait free trial pretty much every time much every time you you log in. I mean I think it would be. I think it would be good. I don't know you guys are parents. And if I had a child I probably would do a lot to keep from exposing the child to the awful ads that are on Youtube And so you know it it. It might be worth it. But I don't know if you guys are Doing the youtube premium for your Daniel Tiger streaming needs the ads. When you play a video for your kid are truly awful. But I'm persisting with a every ounce of willpower my body to fork over that digital money Youtube Joe rates. Say I really. I originally tried a chain watching my way through a bunch of shows that were on my really should have watched that list but I found that slow watching my way through several different shows when episode per day or so fits better with my shelter in place mood really. This means I've reverted to how it used to consume media culture twenty years ago both in process of consumption and kind of media consumed. I think media intended to be bench watched sacrifices tone for story to satisfy the binge-watching process. It has to have the three act plot and the tone that goes with differing tension happened. Over the series of episodes because the episodes are intended to be consumed as standalone episodes. They have less per episode depth and the shows have more per arc depth. The trend to add story arcs was good but I think many shows have crossed over to the point where characters are characters. They're just agents of the plot in the Non Bitch. Versions of season-long are the characters and personalities change in response to and the events are driven by the characters desires in the binge version of season arc. Shows it's the characters knowledge actions that change but not their personalities consider some high profile shows with season. Arc's last air bander altered Carbon Madman the wire the expanse Babylon five breaking bad across decades new cross genres in non-binge shows the characters and the Ark as different people in shows the end the arc in different situations. It's an interesting insight Joe and it goes to like what I what I wrote about a long time ago and over thinking it that like snack ability you know. Tv snack ability was a a thing that in here in the content of the show rather than being just a phenomenon of how we consumed it. And that that we'd have these kind of highly snack -able We'd have these sort of highly stackable like shows that had that kind of quality of like keeping the keeping the kind of the wheel turning in between episodes and not just from for like having a cliffhanger Having a cliffhanger at the end I think you're right to kind of identify a certain consistency. A certain dynamic sameness in tone to this the shows that are highly snack -able that are highly bendable because those are the ones that kind of like sort of like the simpsons kind of reverting to like you know Simpson's Prime Simpson's like Undeveloped AT THE END OF EVERY EPISODE. Like they've never aged etcetera etcetera. The it is an interesting insight that even the kind of the dramas this is highly serialized. Dramas can do that as well. I think like I think suffer for it a little bit. I don't know binge washable shows are right. Finally we have IAN. Who says frankly we're exhausted in isolation my family my wife sister-in-law and I are fortunate that we're also fully employed but they're also twin two year old's Who Do not understand the concept of please go play on your own because the adults need telework. They demand near constant supervision. So even weekends aren't much respite. Plus their stir-crazy without their friends are playgrounds. We're saving a lot of money on daycare but right now pay double the have it back even if just for a few days makeshift science projects and tactical activities. Also buy US some time. Costco helps us there. We've made a rice table. And doing activities with baking soda and vinegar in industrial quantities for cheap also used a lot of the daycare savings to donate to local food banks businesses. It's tough while we're in the thick of it ourselves but still trying to acknowledge are still employed privilege media lists right now during the day a lot of Mickey let a Clifford and muppet babies and also explaining to toddlers. Why a crossover between those? Ip's is not available and likely never will be two weeks ago. We discovered super simple songs. And it's been a lifesaver. The kids can watch mesmerized for at least thirty minutes far longer than the other shows held their attention downside ear worms and night. The three adults have been keeping saying with varieties of booze and a list of classic movies that at least one of us inexplicably has never seen bladerunner alien. Indiana Jones last crusade goodfellas nine to five and the usual suspects have been recent ones also on a whim so yesterday the one about the Beatles has a lot to over think if you're in search of newer property to analyze changes to the timeline require internally consistent rules debt all the Best E. N. in Cincinnati Marquette. Say yesterday I did and I agree with the frustration about the lack of consistency with with the rules of the universe And it would be a good topic for discussing and over thinking we saw the adjacent movie. blinded by the light which was about another South Asian Young man in Britain taken by You know Taken by a rock music And that was a better movie than yesterday for sure but Well guess what a great song by the Beatles so total worth for that cool cool I I like the idea of a Mickey Clifford Babies Crossover Crossover thing. I don't know we D- do you guys have like a Do you guys have kids entertainment suggestion? There's a whole bunch of Bernstein. Bernstein bears television. Show that aired I think in the ninety s the vast majority of episodes are available free on youtube and if my test audience is any evidence than three year olds love it. Advance fans of the Barents embarrassed. I also here's one from from our friend over thinker Josh Who hasn't been on an episode in a while but was on some some early ones and has some young young boys and he says his three year old loves a set of youtube videos. That are just songs about trucks and the this. Whoever this marketing genius is like has just written a song for every type of truck. And it's like steam shovel steam shovel shoveling stuff up. Steam showers. You know that's not a real one. Just just made that up him. It may be better than than the ones that are there. But they're they're put together with stock footage with like royalty free footage of these big pieces of heavy machinery of heavy equipment inaction and apparently they're they are mesmerized The kids are mesmerized by these by these particular things. I'll try to put a link to those. We'll give you some links in in Youtube. Yeah I Being a non parent. I really my hats off to all my my friends who are parents who are doing childcare. In the way that they are is is not easy. I think that that's a self evident thing that speaks for itself but needs to be said again over again. One last thing on this is that Mickey and Muppet Babies Crossover would not be prevented by. Ip ownership issues right because the Disney owns the buffets. Yeah I think you're right. I think that's true like I remember a lot of muppet stuff fat like what the MGM Studios in Florida. Or they're now called the Hollywood studios something something like. Yeah that that. That is a good. That's a good point. Also like muppet babies was a great show that I loved when I was a kid. I want to just like gem Went onto another fantastic show that I loved as a Kid. Got Into Netflix. And I watched a couple episodes and was like wow. This was in some ways like pretty complicated ahead of its time for a kids cartoon the I find a place to stream some muppet babies episodes and see what I think about them. So if you have a line you know if you know a guy who can can get me some muppet babies episodes they fall off the back of a truck. Whatever as long as the merchandise is good I would. I would definitely be be interested in that. Thank you to all the members who wrote in if you'd like to become overthinking a member and support the site had to over thinking it dot com slash. Join it's five bucks a month to be a member. You get some nice perks but more than that you get the the warm fuzzy feeling of knowing that you are supporting the community that You know that is sustaining. All of us at least a little bit during During this time. And Hey is there anything that we could do? That would make this make this better anything that you'd like to see see from us. I mean there are all kinds of you. Know we've done online book clubs before that's kind of a new thing online movie watching clubs something like something like that like a one time event for for over thinkers doing something like if you have some ideas. Leave a comment on the show notes for this this episode. We would love to hear from you. So thanks again to the members who wrote in. Thank you for listening. Ben and Marc Comrades. Thank you for talking about the death of Stalin with me and we We appreciate you. And congratulations to Pete's on fatherhood and and I can't wait to hear about it. I'm sure you will have a number of incredible. Who are you talking about? Oh I don't know I don't Know Pete. Yeah this is this is just a perilous nonsense during during the hour of this podcast. All of my pictures from college voter shops to do need new lists. We'll be back with more overthinking podcasts. Next week till then visit us on the web at overthinking at dot com the site where we subjected the glorious pop culture to level of scrutiny. It probably goes into now.
Pageantry in Beijing. Firebombs in Hong Kong.
"From The New York Times this is the daily today as China celebrated seventy years of Communist Party will the signs of pageantry pride and unity in Beijing. We're met with firebombs rubber bullets and mass protests in Hong Kong. My colleague Natalie Killer speaks with China correspondent Javier Hernandez about a day of historic contrast. It's Wednesday October second. Have you take us back to a few weeks ago. When you get this knock doc at your door it Saturday morning I am in my home in Beijing just relaxing and I get a call from downstairs saying that it's there's an officer from the Beijing Police Department and he wants to discuss something with you in that moment? I didn't didn't really know what he wanted to talk about. Whether it was an article written sometimes we get visits from the police but in this case I really had no idea and so I was racking my brain and before I knew it the knock was at my door and I opened it up and it was officer Wong young and he was a veteran of the police department he had a nice smile but also looks kind of nervous and he asked do you know about the National Day celebrations and do you well as a correspondent in Beijing yes I did. I we'd sort of been obsessed with the National Day preparations and so it's this yearly event where China celebrates its birthday where there's often a lot of festivities going on but this year was the seventieth anniversary of the founding of the People's Republic of China and so it was an extra special year it was like the biggest event of the year or even the decade for the Communist Party and they were planning this huge military parade that would crowns Xi Jinping as the indomitable dominant leader of China and so it seemed like it was going to be a particularly sensitive but why is he at your door asking if you know L. About this celebration well he wanted me to leave. He basically said you have no choice. You need to leave armed. Police are going to be stationed inside your home for four days well. Why would the police to take over your apartment for this parade will? I've been asking myself that a lot lately and I don't think there's a clear answer but I think it has to do with this obsession with security that's spread throughout China's recent years and this fear that something could go wrong. This is meticulously rehearsed extravaganza. This is something that they've planned every detail. They've been rehearsing for months and everyone here knows that they're gonNA be on TV and I think there's probably a lot of fear on that stage. If anything goes wrong and so I think they were just being extra. Extra careful wanted to minimize any risk and kicked me out. So where do you go so I stayed in my apartment for a few more are weeks every weekend though the party was having these mass rehearsals for the parade and so they forced me to stay in my room under curfew while they held these these rehearsals and I was told to close my curtains promptly at eight. PM and the officer kept checking on me to see what my plans were. I didn't really know also I kind of just put him out for a while and then eventually had to make a decision so I decided to go to Taipei or family and watch the parade from there so it starts about ten. Am and you see thousands of soldiers come out holding Chinese flag many holding huge rifles the weapons are rolling out one by one we see supersonic drones we see unmanned underwater vehicles. There are intercontinental ballistic missiles years the last equipment Whitman formation features. Ds Forty one nuclear missiles the DNC forty one is an intercontinental strategic nuclear missile nick you see thousands of soldiers come out holding their Chinese flag lag and they're walking down a huge red carpet these columns of soldiers dressed in white and black and green and they're walking toward the center stage where Xi Jinping preparing to make a speech and what happens as Xi Jinping takes the stage well. There's this moment where there's an incredible resounding throughout the entire tournament square. I think it's a seventy gun salute and they welcomed Xi Jinping to the stage so he walks to the microphone wearing this dark Mao suit and looking rather saw them Django Beaumont. So what I'm waiting for is to hear what he has to say about Hong Kong. Why why is that important well? We're now in the seventeenth consecutive week of protests in Hong Kong. They started back in June over opposition to a bill that would have allowed extraditions to mainland China but since then they've morphed escalated into this broader fight for democracy and for civil liberties in Hong Kong and throughout this period there's been one voice voice that's been missing and all this and that is the voice of Xi Jinping and so this was a moment on this very important day where we thought Xi Jinping might finally offer more details about his thinking on Hong Kong or how the government might deal with this crisis boxers Shunga. Oh uh-huh tongue she finally being it was clear what his message was and it was that China would not back down and even he himself said may only be none go hon so we got a TV. No power can stop the the progress of the Chinese people and the Chinese nation so I assume that message didn't land well with the protesters in Hong Kong so we always knew there would be big protests on National Day in Hong Kong but she's in pigs remarks seemed to add into the deep anger that a lot of protesters felt so I headed to Hong Kong to see what was happening on the ground a lot to festivities lined up for the day and we are really excited S. UC audience he's very excitement is freely infectious so back to you though yet all right thank you very much for your reporting on the Tenement Square and you're not watching special coverage from the seventy nine of the of the People's Republic of China and we'll be back in a minute and sometimes a single moment can change everything used to stay up late at night with my dad watching movies on TV and one night he cried. I'm Alicia Burke host of the new podcast that made all the difference. I talked to achievers like documentary filmmaker. It'll make Ken Burns about the moment that inspired them to make an impact. I knew there was some power to film that I wanted to be a part of you can find that made all the difference Prince anywhere you get your podcast created by Bank of America. What would you like the power to do hi? I'm Anne Brown and I'm one of the people who makes the daily one of my favorite ever pieces of tape we've had on the show was from an episode we made with Times reporter Francis Bliss who was investigating the death toll of Hurricane Maria in Puerto Rico and she sent us back this file where she's standing in this group of reporters who are barrage ing the officials with questions and she asks him again and again how oh can you not acknowledge that these people were killed by the hurricanes and you want her to get to the bottom of it. I think the reason why I love the tape that I reporter sent back to us. So much is that we get to see how hard the reporters at the New York Times work. They're trying to dig up facts that are buried for a reason that nobody wants them to know. Francis is going to keep asking questions and just gonNA keep sending tape back to me and we're going to keep putting it on the air because we think that you deserve to know the answers to the question that Francis asking game and if you think that's important the best way to support us is to subscribe to the New York Times it so I landed in Hong Kong around three. PM and it's kind of eerie it's really quiet and this is a weak when a a lot of mainlanders are on holiday and they would typically come to a place like Hong Kong but they're not making that trip this year for obvious reasons and so I go and walk through this Empty Airport Kevin and find our bureaus tech act manager Kevin Roche behold the whole we go through here sure we got over that and he gives me my equipment. What's the equipment okay Let's see so this gives me gas masks Baxter Yeah just straps on right here yeah helmet first aid kit and this is a new kind of a full face mask that we just got a few of the press best one of those like bright yellow like construction worker vests so I think that's everything you might need as butter water nursing so right away upon landing you're preparing for the situation to become pretty dangerous right so the protests have been relatively peaceful but there have been these cases where it quickly escalates and certainly that's picked up in in the past couple of days at the airport now and I'm checking my phone and seeing a lot of messages saying that there's a pretty tense standoff in northern Hong Hong Kong and so I'm going to check it out and so I- headed out got Newburgh Campbell and found my way to the protesters and what did you see in front of me. I could see black clad protestors. Can they were lighting fires. They were creating chaos along this particular stretch. The scene is pretty chaotic. There are hundreds of protesters testers gathering around different stores that are believed to have A pro-beijing stance and they're trying to vandalize realized the exterior to Luthier inside and take whatever they can and so are you able to talk to any of them yeah. How old are I use seventeen years? Are you from from Hong Kong okay. It was basically all young people students. The university in Highschool does a long as to become the same like mainland China and I started to talk to soon just about why they had come out and how they felt about this National Day celebrations that were going on in Beijing kind of like birthday for Eh. CCP BED for us. This is not that they that was celebrating we would like to it's how the world in Hong Kong and facing a serious condition that we need rose help. They said Hong Kong is in crisis. They felt that Xi Jinping on this day should be listening more closely to their concerns and not standing in Beijing surrounded by soldiers at a military. Are you asking talking any of them about the escalating violence. Yeah I asked them about that. You know attacking everybody in this rates. We're not destroying without purpose this. We have our auditors. We we know what we're doing so yes we that like somehow doing some fish destroy something but instead establish something that's well. A lot of them seem to be not really bothered. I told you I don't think that's fountains because all the destroy some maybe public transport which is an an object not a human being so I don't think that's actually is a Holland and that is a kind of the way to express our demands and and that's a theme that we've seen repeatedly these protests that when it has escalated in these moments when these protesters have hit the streets destroyed subway stations and vandalized hubbub property they felt that device was actually necessary in order to gain the world's attention just spoke with one of the young protesters who who was setting fire to subway station and breaking cameras and other things and it was just asking him about what he says to those people who who think that violence and extreme tactics are undermining this movement and his reaction was pretty much. I have to do this in order to show the police. I said I'm angry. You'RE NOT GONNA listen to us and in the meantime it sounds like the situation around you is escalating yeah so I look around. I've feeling the tear gas in my eyes and you know my skin and more and more protesters are lighting fires. There's and be facing the front of buildings and then get news on my phone that the police I have shot a teenage demonstrator eighteen year old high school student and that's the first time in months of protests is that a live round was used against the protesters and so it's very clear to me in that moment that this is going to be big news for the protesters and might change things so videos circulate showing the protester being shot at very close range and a lot of people are posting photos. Supposedly showing is being shot in the left shoulder and bleeding uh-huh video. He's seen his name at the same time. There's also videos showing the protesters hesters attacking the police and so we reach this moment where these graphic photos are being shared clearly inflaming the protesters and the police Sir also firing back defending their response to that moment. I remember this just Russia the people coming toward me and almost like a stampede and these protesters were running away from a crowd of about thirty forty police police officers all holding riot gear shields and batons and they were basically clearing the area and so I run with the protesters and then find shelter and watch what happens from the side so how do you feel about that that this young man was shot with a live. Just it's just not acceptable. You look people are Livid the police they're trying to kill them. It didn't not trying to stop the problem just want to beat them up they just won't do. They just wanted to put them behind bars. They just wanted to kill them. They tell me that the shooting of this teenager for them is a direct assault on everything that they believe in Bailey onto uh any weapon big just got sticks and things and the police got on earth they got body armor got guns different kinds of guns and the shoes rush into shoot shoot that student and they have a lot of non lethal weapon light pepper spray and then things choose to use this space though the shoot him at his chest trying to stop anything they're not trying to stop the riot from happening. They are pushing into riots and for a lot of them it kind of makes them feel like they need to fight even harder Ville just rea- amihai angry angry so we do that you want to say and so what I I see on the ground is people rush back to the very same street where they were vandalizing and lighting fires and do the exact same thing all over again. It really really is this moment where you feel like anger is unleashed and prompting people to be much more aggressive than they ever would. We can't we can get a gift aw aw heavier here. I'm struck that this scene in Hong Kong is such a stark contrast to the pageantry and the choreography of the parade in Beijing and I wonder what you make of that. I think this was their parade in many ways. This was the message in the image that they wanted to be seen around the world. Their goal was really to overshadow whatever was happening in Beijing and in many ways they achieve that this was a huge embarrassment for the Communist Party. It just reminded people that Hong Kong is is chaotic that it's not under control the she jinping's on the saleable control and power is perhaps not as strong as as it seems what you seem it'd be saying is that there was a deliberate effort by the protesters to seize the narrative here on the National Day demonstration exactly they wanted to show the world that they control the narrative in Hong Kong of course that's a bit optimistic on their part but in this moment they felt that the only thing they could do was to go out on the streets to create chaos and to help that the world would watch when I talked to a lot of these protesters would point to example of of the United States or other countries and saying that the most important thing is to keep the pressure on China and the only way to work with China China is to test China to push China becoming increasingly aggressive toward China whether it's through violence or other acts is the only way that that they can achieve their goal and sustain this movement day feel like provoking China is their only option right for a lot of them they see this as their last opportunity to stand up to Beijing and they feel like if they don't do it now that China might attempt to destabilize stabilize and squash this movement entirely and so before that happens they want to stand up to Xi Jinping to stand up to China and to say we're GONNA fight and we're going to try to attract the world's attention to stop whatever might happen heavier. Thank you so much for staying up so late to talk to us. Thank you We'll be right back if you missed the season premiere of the good place on NBC you missed what New York Times magazine calls the Best Sitcom on TV and they're in good company Vanity Fair calls the heavenly the brightest beacon of light currently on television and NPR raves the good place is one of the smartest comedies on TV be there for the historic final season love the good place starring Emmy winner Ted Danson and Kristen Bell right after perfect harmony on NBC's comedy Thursday. Here's here's what else you need to know. Secretary of State Might Palm Pale is pushing back against a plan by the House Democrats leading the impeachment richman inquiry to depose five State Department officials as part of their investigation home Pale called the depositions scheduled for this week act of intimidation in response the Chairman of the Three House committees overseeing the impeachment inquiry accused Pompeyo of intimidating the witness to protect himself and the president in a letter the committee chairman said the locking the depositions positions would constitute an obstruction of their inquiry an act that they've you as an impeachable offense itself and in a closely watched case that challenged affirmative action in college admissions a federal judge has rejected claims that Harvard intentionally discriminated against Asian American applicants the plaintiffs in the case a group representing Asian American students rejected did by Harvard had argued that the university's affirmative action policies had benefited black and Hispanic students at the expense of Asians but the judge said that will Harvard's admissions policy was quote not perfect it did not violate the law I'm Michael Barr seat. Sometimes a single moment can change. Everything needs to stay up late at tonight with my dad watching movies TV and one night he cried. I'm Alicia Burke host of the new podcast that made all the difference. I talked to achievers like documentary filmmaker. Ken Burns about the moments that inspired them to make an impact. I knew there was some power to film that I wanted to be a part of you can find that made all the the difference anywhere you get your
How Many Countries Are There?
"If you wanted to know. How many countries are in the world? It should be a pretty easy thing to find out. Go to a map. Count the countries and Have your answer, however, it isn't even remotely close to being that simple defining what a country is extremely difficult, and has been the point of contention in many wars and conflicts find out the problem of determining how many countries are in the world in this episode of everything everywhere daily. This episode everything everywhere daily is brought to you by G Adventures G adventures is the world's Premier Small Group tour operator offering tours in over one hundred countries and all seven continents in addition g adventures has been a leader in the area of responsible tourism, helping to establish social enterprises around the world. When you travel with G, you not only get to explore the world. World, you also get to help the people in the communities you visit I speak from firsthand experience. I've personally visited over forty countries on all seven continents with g adventures, and I can attest to their high standards and the quality of their tours to learn more about g adventures and defined a tour. That's right for you. Click on the link in the show notes. Before start, let me make the following disclaimer with the following places, I'm about to list. I am not claiming that any of them are independent or My goal is to simply explain their disputed status and the controversy, surrounding them I am not picking sides, so if you happen to live in one of these places or are in a neighboring country, please don't send me an e mails. Now that being said. If, we wanted a starting point for this discussion. The best place to start is in the United Nations. The UN is the club for countries, and if you want to find out how many countries that are worth, the easiest thing to do would be to ask the UN as of the time I am recording this. There are currently one hundred and ninety three countries in the united. Nations and we'll use this number as our starting point. If you're a country, you're in the United Nations then it's safe to say you are in fact a country. The problem is that the opposite is not true. If you're not in the United Nations. It doesn't mean that you're not a country. The best example of this was probably Switzerland which didn't become a member of the United Nations until two thousand and two, but it doesn't mean that they weren't a country before two thousand two. Once, you get beyond the one hundred and ninety three countries. Things start to get messy because you're dealing with overlapping claims of sovereignty. Countries are often recognized based on mutual recognition by other countries based on international recognition. There are currently three territories that are recognized by over one hundred different UN member states, but are not members of the United Nations themselves. They are city, Palestine and Kosovo. The reason why these three countries are not in United Nations has to do with the unique setup of the UN. And the United Nations Security Council. Any permanent member has the right to veto any UN resolution including getting new members in the case of Palestine membership would be vetoed by the United States in the case of Kosovo. It'd be vetoed by Russia. The Vatican has never really tried to join, but it almost certainly would be vetoed by China, which is one of the few countries in the world, with which it has no diplomatic relations, and it is one of the few countries which actually recognizes Taiwan. Both the Vatican and Palestine are observer members in the United Nations, which means they can attend the parties, but they can't actually vote. Side note I am not going to go into detail, explaining the difference between the Holy See which is officially what has diplomatic recognition and Vatican City? I'll save that for another episode as it is beyond the scope of this show. So if we take the country's plus these three that puts us at one, hundred, ninety six. However. We aren't even close to really answering the question yet. From here, things start to get really murky and confusing. There are several places which may be considered countries, insofar as they control their own borders, have their own governments military currency yet few or no other countries recognize them. I. We need to address the issue of Taiwan I'm like other places in this category. Taiwan doesn't claim to be an independent country. It claims to China like all of China Taiwan claims to Represent All China. The case of Taiwan a special, because they actually have a competing claim with the People's Republic of China as to actually who is China when the UN was formed in Nineteen forty-five, the Republic of China was one of the five permanent members of the Security Council. The Republic of China is what Taiwan calls itself, and it dates back to the Chinese civil war which they lost. The problem was of course they weren't really China representing the vast majority of the Chinese. People, the People's Republic of China head over a billion people and full control of the country on the ground. Taiwan was only an island with a few million people. They might have claimed to represent all of China, but they really didn't. In one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety, one, the. UN recognize the People's Republic of China as the Chinese representative and the Republic of China Aka Taiwan went from being a permanent member of the Security Council to being left out of the United Nations entirely. Nonetheless, even though Taiwan is an in the UN, nor does it have observer status, it has never declared itself to be independent, but it does have some international recognition by eighteen small countries, it also has de facto control of its borders, its own currency military in its own elected government, and it's also allowed to compete in the Olympics in international football competitions as Chinese Taipei. So if we recognize its de facto control of its own territory that puts set one hundred, ninety seven. But if we were to include Taiwan why wouldn't we include other countries which have de facto control over their territory as well there are several places which are countries, insofar as they control their own borders, have their own government military and currency yet. No other countries recognize them. These include south a steadier this breakway part of the Republic of Georgia which borders Russia. It's recognized by five UN member states one of which is Russia. Abkhazia another breakaway republic of Georgia which also borders Russia. It's recognized by five UN member states one of which is also Russia. Transnistria tiny sliver of land, sandwiched between Moldova and Ukraine on the eastern side of the stor river, not recognized by any U member states, and everyone recognizes it as being a part of Moldova. Arts ash also known as now girl Kara Bath. And Armenian populated region, which was part of Azerbaijan when the Soviet Union fell, not recognized by any member state including Armenia. Somaliland. This is the northern part of Somalia. They have total autonomy their own currency. They've even had elections with peaceful transition of government. Nonetheless, no, their country recognizes them. Western Sahara formerly the Spanish Sahara, the Spanish left in nineteen seventy-five without transitioning the region t independence Morocco controls most of the territory, although no country recognizes its sovereignty over it. North Cyprus the northern Turkish of the island, which broke away after an invasion of Cyprus in one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety, four. It is only recognized by Turkey. The stories behind every one of the places I just listed could be an episode unto itself, and maybe someday it will suffice it to say they're all defacto independent, but almost no other country recognizes them as such. If we included all these places, countries were now at two hundred and four. However, we are not done yet. New. Zealand has to territories which are all independent, the island of new way and the cook. Islands are both small territories that totally control their own fate. They are independent members of international organizations, such as UNESCO and the World Health Organization and they can sign their entreaties. They have diplomatic ties with about two dozen U N, member states and the EU, basically they can do whatever they want. Including entering treaties with foreign powers and new. Zealand has publicly stated that they would not stop them if they wish to declare independence and join the United Nations. But. They've stopped short of doing so because all of their citizens currently are also considered citizens of New Zealand that plus other at financial benefits would be lost if they were to fully declare their independence. With new in the cook, islands that puts us at two hundred six countries, which is certainly all of them, right? I know we're just getting warmed up now. We have to delve into autonomous territories. Thomas Territories are places that exist in a quantum state of being a country and not being a country. The best known example would probably be. Puerto Rico Puerto. Rico is a territory of the United States. It's part of the US, but it also isn't part of the US. The people who live there are US citizens, but Puerto. Rico doesn't have representation in the federal government, so it's not quite a part of the US. In the same way that Florida is the same is true for Guam. The US Virgin Islands and the Northern Mariana Islands. Also, which I might add have separate Olympic teams American. American Samoa is very similar with the only difference being that the people that are not US citizens, but are considered US nationals that means they can freely travel and work in the United States. But if they wished to vote while living in the US they would have to become naturalized citizens, Greenland and the Faroe. Islands are part of the Kingdom of Denmark, but are considered autonomous countries within the realm of Denmark by the same token Aruba Curacao and Saint Martin, our countries within the Kingdom of the Netherlands, but the Caribbean islands of bonaire Sabe and saint stations are considered part of the country of. That flat place that's in Europe. Hong Kong and Macau special administrative regions of China with their own currency passport and also Olympic teams. Britain has territories with varying degrees of independence. In phila- monster at the Turks and Caicos the Cayman Islands Bermuda Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands, South Georgia Island the British. Indian Ocean territory ascension island Tristan Kuna saying. And tiny pitcairn island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. Some of those territories have their own Olympic teams and some don't. I haven't even mentioned the three Crown dependencies which are Jersey Guernsey the Isle of Man None of which are part of the United Kingdom nor a territory of the United Kingdom yet are tied to the UK via Direct Union with the Crown Aka the Queen and a top it all off the country of the United Kingdom itself is made up before different countries. England Wales Scotland Northern Ireland. All of whom get separate teams in the World Cup. It's countries in countries. The UK has achieved country inception. So as you can see the question of how many countries are there is a lot more complicated than just looking at who has a seat in the United Nations and there really is no right answer. The base number that most people use as one hundred and ninety three, but it's also pretty obvious. There are more than one hundred and ninety three. The question is how many things should be considered countries, and that will remain an open question subject to debate. This is a brand new podcast, and as such you can really use your support. If you know someone who is curious and you think would like the show. Please share with them, and if you've enjoyed the show, please subscribe on Apple, podcast or Google podcast really get contact for curious people every day and your podcast player and leave a five star review. More views can help the show be discovered by more people and also please support the show on Patriots where you will get exclusive audio content, not available on the podcast feed merchandise such as t shirts, and you'll be able to submit ideas for future episodes until next time. Stay curious.
Trade wars and face-recognition cameras in church: China and the kingdom of God
"Really? Trade wars and face recognition cameras and church China in the kingdom of God this Dr Jim Dennison's daily article podcast for Wednesday may eighth two thousand nineteen two suspects were apprehended yesterday after a school shooting not far from Columbine high school left one student dead in eight others injured the stem school highlands ranch. Now joined the long list of such tragedies. While Americans were grieving yet, another school shooting stocks fell significantly on fears of a trade war with China, the market plunged, Monday morning on news that the US would escalate tariffs against Chinese imports than it rebounded on hopes that trade talks would eventually succeed amid news that a Chinese delegation is coming to Washington this week then it fell again yesterday. My purpose today is not to masquerade as an economist and explaining the function and results of tariffs or the larger financial issues at stake. Rather it is Scott. With you in underlying factor in the US China relationship that is crucial for our souls in God's global kingdom. Michael Pillsbury served eight presidential administrations and is currently director of the center for Chinese strategy at the Hudson institute, his latest book is both fascinating. And frightening. The hundred year marathon, China's secret strategy to replace America as the global superpower, according to Pillsbury, China's president Xi Jinping dreams of a quote of resurgent China that would reclaim its rightful place atop the global hierarchy. This has been a communist party ambition since Mao took over in nineteen forty nine the date commonly. Understood by China's leaders as the beginning of the hundred here marathon, China's goal is to quote, compete and surpassed the United States as the world's leading economic power. If current trends persist by twenty fifty China's economy will be much larger than America's perhaps the. Re times larger according to some projections. Why does this matter in this new world, quote, China will be able to outspend America's military? It will be able to exert over its neighbors and allies the robust influence that America has enjoyed for decades. And at least to some degree China will be able to shape the world in its image. Such a power shift, quote will be a huge step back from open markets and free trade, and it will handicap the WTO and similar efforts to foster multilateral trading. Ensure according to Pillsbury, the Chinese dream is for China to be the world's only superpower unrivalled, economically militarily in culturally, what comes of the current trade contest between the US and China remains to be seen. But there's no question that the Chinese are engaged in a marathon, not a sprint. Here's part of the story that I've not seen in the news coverage the United States and the People's Republic of China. Stand on radically different cultural foundations, China's world view is grounded in Buddhist teachings emphasize, the impermanent of all being in that the belief that humans have no permanent soul. There's no concept of a personal God or an individual's external existence in heaven or hell the focuses on TV nirvana a state of bliss in which human ego, desire and suffering are extinguished. Couple this view of the individual with communism's insistence that the person must serve the state to advance the welfare of all. And we have a formula for long-term national advancement with less concern for present day citizens. The Chinese government can engage in one hundred year quest for global dominance, even if it's people fail to benefit today. They have no power to vote. Their leaders out of office ensuring the one party governments continue to thority by contrast. The American experiment is based on the Judeo Christian commitment to the sanctity of every human life Thomas Jefferson claimed that quote, all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, including life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. His declaration expressed all Americans considered self evident truth because their culture was grounded in the biblical worldview our democracy flows naturally from the belief in the intrinsic value of each person and the antithesis. Missus of communism. Here's the practical point of today's daily article, China's leaders recognized the intense est between their eight theistic worldview in the Christian faith. That's why they're escalating persecution against Christians and churches arresting more than one hundred thousand believers last year. One Chinese church was recently closed when its pastor a graduate of fuller, theological seminary in California, refused to mount face recognition cameras on his pulpit turned on the congregation miners are banned from entering any church online sales of bibles or blocked and crosses. Another other. Christian symbols are being torn down. Authorities are reportedly intensifying the crackdown in rural areas by offering monetary awards to those reporting on neighbors or family members participating in Christian worship the trade wars. Making headlines are important to our present day economic health. China's marathon for global dominance is obviously relevant to our collective few. Later, but the spiritual warfare going on in China is eternally significant I invite you to stop now and ask God to protect the hundreds of millions of Christians and China ask our father to redeem their suffering and strengthen their witness and decide to join them in serving Jesus whatever the cost. God's word warns us all who desire to live a godly life in Christ. Jesus will be persecuted. But Jesus taught his persecuted followers to rejoice in be glad for great is your award in heaven. If you must choose between reward today in reward attorney, what decision will you make encourage you to connect Denison form on Facebook Instagram Twitter to keep the conversation going. Thank you for listening to today's daily article podcast.
#1916 KeVita Case Study: The kombucha beverage company launched in a recession (that PepsiCo bought for $230,000,000)
"Hey there freedom fighters my name is Andrew Warner. I'm the founder of mixer. Gee I interview entrepreneurs about how. They built their businesses. And I've been waiting for the word literally right here literally months to do this interview because the guests who's joining me today created a beverage company. Sold it to Pepsi started another company. The new company now is Flying Embers it does organic hard Khumbu. Nobody can see it because people are listening to the Audio version of this. But I'm holding it up here and the reason I've been dying to do. This interview. Is His team. Generously sent me a box full of it and I felt. I can't drink it before the interview. That feels wrong. It's here for the interview. And then if you guys heard my interview with Thomas from Efi International. I said Thomas. You're here in person. How many not gonNA drink with you. We're GONNA DRINK SCOTCH of course but I've had this thing. Would you mind doing a taste test with me? And if it's awkward that we hate it will have to talk about it because we're here in person if we love it in great. We're going to have a good time and I never had hard Kombucha. I always hated Khumbu to be honest with you. It's ads this Weirdo sour taste. My wife loved. She feels a refrigerator with it. I couldn't get into we. We franken love this thing and so I basically said. Can we get two guests on here so I can do this interview? Yes I wanNA find out how he sold his company to Pepsi. But also I'd like finally get to tear into this especially now considering what's going on in the world all right let me introduce improperly. His name is Bill Moses. The company that I'd like to spend a lot of time talking about is called Kavita. If you don't recognize the name you probably recognize the bottle. It's been at all our grocery stores here in San Francisco. I feel like at least the ones that I my family shops in. And so it's the it's known for Kombucha. It makes a line of Health Beverages Pepsi acquired. I WANNA find out how we launched it how he grew it and then is coming back and doing a hard drink. Hard meaning alcohol. We're GONNA find out how How he did it. All thanks to phenomenal sponsors. I will host your website right. It's called hostgator. The second will help you hire phenomenal developers. It's called top tau. We'll talk about those later. Go check him out of I Bill thanks for being here. The numbers public. But I like big numbers. Would you feel comfortable telling us how much you sold to Pepsi for area? We sold for route. Two hundred thirty million dollars. How much of that do you get at the end? Is that too weird? Task is how you doing question. Why got I got well into double digits? I always ask my guests. How did you do you remember the day you made the deal? Some do remember. Some don't have a feeling you're going to remember because what happened. You're driving on Ventura from what I heard as you're like talking to actually talking to the counterpart Pepsico when they were actually delivering the confirmation of the price and date of closing and I was. I was on the one and sure enough. I got distracted and I ran my car in the back of a Tesla and ended up getting told off the road and that was that and did that. Work out that call actually did heard the crash and I. I was unavailable after that or about thirty minutes in Yeah it did work. Why are you this? What was going through your head at the time. Was it the sense I have to do this or just the way you're driving for you anxious. I think I was distracted. I was really I was. I was definitely Definitely anxious and and and you know so it was It was distracting. So I definitely was. It was definitely took my eyes off the road. I was looking at the road but I was thinking of different things in your life to have done this deal interesting. You know it. It really It really From from a professional perspective. You know there's you know it's really a the grand. Prize is to build a brand in the cell to a major. Cpg Company so really changed my life in so far as giving a lot of currency with a lot of New Brands other brands entrepreneurial brands many which have on the board in Advising so it really gave me currency in the space that enabled me to take the expertise and the experience in beginning and Operating in selling a two other younger companies and that was a love I have is is building a brand and positioning brand and working with young are entrepreneurs so that they could take the experts I have and hopefully Be Benefit to that. I heard you were one of these kids growing up. Who is just constantly hustling you. Did you ever did? You ever have a lemonade stand Yeah actually did have a lemonade. Stand my head Actually at the time it was it was it was a cool. Eight stand actually wasn't even eliminates. The end is back in the day where I took Kuwait mixes and mix them up on ave and and put some ice in it and sold it so Not Lemonade but something a little easier to make because of way because you would just. Yeah why there's a couple of things I really. I really love connecting with people and you know and getting them and transacting with them and engaging with interacting with them so knowlton form of interaction. I think You can either go the hard way and have a love interaction or you can go the secular way and interaction and so as it relates to as it relates to that. I really love interacting with people that was one way they interact with. Feels like the commercial wave interacting? Is We underestimate the fact that it is an interaction it is almost as a line in the movie barbarians at the gate where the head of Nabisco said when people buy you they they buy what you're selling it's like or when they buy what you're selling by you the sense that they are they're showing you the way that they show a comic that they like them as they applaud the way they show you as a as a as a hustler is that they're buying your stuff? I am I right like the lemonade. The baseball cards the other stuff that you're selling grownup it feels like it's all connected that way you know there's something something deeply rewarding About making something crafting. Something that others enjoy and they benefit from mum for me. That's the ultimate in my ability to express myself others express themselves with music or different forms of creative arts or engineering or programming. Or and for me. It's making a product and building a brand and having it be something more than just what it is Having to be something that represents something that someone could emotionally connect with a thrilling Before this you You started recovery television network. I looked it up. Was IT so Ninety nine two thousand we sorted nonfiction. A programming service and back in the day when cable was cliff rate in. They're going to be five hundred channels and you know and the and so. We created a channel that was not fixing that really dealt with people's behavioral health issues and. We had help line that that that helped people when their time of need. And it was telecast in the privacy of one's own home in behavioral health issues if someone had a substance abuse issue or if they had Depression or they were you know mentally unstable and potentially suicidal Were part of domestic abuse. You know sexual abuse all these behavioral issues that people really didn't want to speak about. We have an opportunity to connect with us and give them information so that they could do something about. It was really great. It was really it. Was really rewarding. programming service that we did the back. Donovan as a place for addicts too to see programming geared towards them. I'm looking at an Old Los Angeles Times article from nineteen ninety-three that called it a wellness channel. Did you start off with with dealing with addiction and then expand or was it? We started with with a broad For many reasons because when you look at the Dixon there's oftentimes underlying cause whether sexual abuse or domestic abuse or you know host of things so we wanted to catch the wider net to really be more inclusive. Always some sort of relationship on a lot of those beeps. Go off the whole day as you work it contract you. I'M GONNA ask you to turn it off. I don't even know that you know how to turn it off. It's outlook isn't it age? Berries that thing deep in their settings You don't get distracted by that. I do and I'm not usually so tied to my computer whereas issue so Let's keep talking. I if you find it find it but I don't want it to distract you from this conversation. I'm trying to understand why you I'm looking at your background. I don't see why you would get into television. You're a guy who worked on the back office. A bear stearns you then Helped create the compute the computerized reservations system for the People's Republic of China. So that people can book airplane flights and hotels. Right in my book. How do you end up the television network? That's more of a Ted Turner type of thing is well. It turns out that one of my one of my good friends was actually in the cable industry and I was working on Wall Street and he brought me this business and you know my mother. My mother was Was was in recovery and I had a lot of experience related to to family issues and dynamics and I realized that that you know you can do well and by doing good and some hard other. I got really old into it. Felt compelled to get behind it so I think there was a personal connection to feel comfortable telling us what happened in your background in your with your mom. Yeah well. My mother was a Yoshi skrilje shoes immigrants and a broken Pittsburgh and she had no. She had some challenges. She was alcoholic and she. It culminated into a nervous breakdown. She had when I was fourteen. Years Old She came out of it. She got into recovery and got healthy and you know so a lot of her issues. I lived with and I realized that it was not. I didn't have anywhere to go or talk to anybody about it. And what did you live with lived with Elizabeth? The mother wasn't always there until headed that affect. You personally It it made me angry. You know really going to be angry. Maybe knock really understand I didn't understand why why this was happening. I I couldn't. I wanted to blame her but I realized it was something else. And so for me. It was It was deeply troubling upsetting. And and I think you know my teen years my early teens especially I was angry and I and I took a lot of that energy into sports and athleticism that enabled me to really find a catharsis for and sort of enjoy. Ever break yourself on it or did it help you when you're working at bear stearns when you were when you work. I think listen. I think there's a little bit of a you know there is. The cycle of addiction comes in many forms and fashions and some cases. It makes what people might be considered as great At another cases it's it's not so great but for me I it I kind of have a work I love the work so whether you want to call it a work at Dan I have. I have a deep desire to be to work to be worthy and to provide others Was something of value and whether or not those that came by nature or by nurture. I don't know but I think it's related in some way too much auto my with my mother the network that you started to help people who are in your situation in your mom's situation was in joint venture with Liberty Media. My right yeah. The huge unknown like put. Most people don't know liberty media but they owned a bunch of channels. They've been our it was owned by John Malone. I think it still is right. They they invest in programming services and program services from bt Discovery Channel any etc so Having them as a partner was Was Valid for sure Was Interesting. Was that during that time. There wasn't a lot of sponsorship dollars interested in being associated with things of this nature. I didn't think of that right right. And so then what happened to the channel so the channel ended up going under but we sold the we we what we did was we to businesses. We took the cable network are excuse me the Internet network in the programming. We developed a partnership with A. It's time America. Aol digital cities and at the time it was way. Aol which was a way of communicating via the Internet. This is this is twenty years ago and they had local programming so tied in local programming. All of our services to. All WE ENDED UP SPINNING OFF and selling out back to liberty media and took the programming network. That was the television peace and took that so it was a mixed bag of success for the joint venture. Benach grade successor any success for the for the investors in the CROCK cats. The you did well financially. It seems like well okay. Well you you could take on a hobby as you told our producer You've got into winemaking. Which is I? Don't know if it was a throwaway line decent wine meaning. Y winemaking the folly of the rich. What got you excited about wine. Making all of a sudden I went to school in College. I took a semester overseas to to the south of France. I I was struggling with my with my language requirement at the University of Virginia. So one way of getting through that was an exchange program student and I went to the American University. Dining excellent provence tonight and I lived with a country garage winemaker and I learned about French wine while I was going to school. They're fast forward. I GET OUT OF THERE. I go to Wall Street. I work on Wall Street than become an entrepreneur that that that the Europe fast forward. And I'm like I loved Bro wine and I started growing grapes and started wigner and then it got really into the fermentation. That's really turn me on was the Alchemy of the fermentation process. And all of that. And I remember talking to I think forget which one of my guests. I thought it was hotel. You're but you know what I forget who it was about how you recognize that one of the challenges of being in the wind businesses. You have to sit on a bottle for eighteen to twenty four months that. It's not a fast turnaround that it's really slow process. And so what did how did that shape. You're thinking about the business. I when I was when I realized that we could make a fermented drink that didn't require Ohring for twelve twenty four months thirty six months. I said let's business going to be at so fermentation so yeah. I think it gave me. It gave me a reference point on if I'm going to get involved with beverages fermented beverages. We've gotta find a way to do it. That could that could have a faster turn And so as we were so's innovating Evita with good manufacturing practices we employed a lot of Ip to get the fermentation to not occur in one year or one month but to do it one week in order to At Better Economics. You got pronouncing this right my wife. My wife like I said loves. We've so much in the house especially now because we're stocking up. We don't know when we leave the house. My pronouncing Kombucha. Butcha okay. Good I guess. Sometimes I say Cam to Angie. She lots so from what I understand. You started reading up on this. You saw that people are interested in Butcha. You saw it in stores you. What a little bit about the research that you did. They told you this is worth going into. So I mean I. I started to Sample of explore them independently of my own due diligence as a winemaker looking at fermentation in fermented products. Of Friend of my wife was making a waterkeeper. Which is a different kind affirmative? Inner Kitchen and so we partnered up and ended up creating a company and we launched made a waterkeeper ferment that she had perfected her kitchen. And then I'd innovated Kabuga and then we. I went forward and found moon innovative ways of making the menu. This is all in. Cpt manufacturing's everything. So we had to figure out how to manufacture a way that that would have could economics and that's what we did for six years. Cpg consumer packaged goods. As we're talking about right you also told our producer you said the winery had capital expenditure that I had to unload. What does that mean? Well there was a lot of money that goes in the wine and winery and I didn't necessarily have to unload it I just I just might. My interest shifted so Not really really unloaded. Just you know I went from making it a primary business to make it. More of a hobby is just. The economics were winery. I don't think she meant a that. You were saying that you wanted to unload the winery but it seems like you were saying as losing money at the winery for awhile right because this is not a business that you get into an you make money tomorrow and so if I started another business that made a profit it seems like tax wise it would cover up for the losses. Ryan I thinking about this certainly will certainly if you've got if you make one business. They're losing money. Said helps offset the you know the economics. That's there to separate two entities and businesses one of the ways that you sold it in the beginning was consumer intercept. I'll get that into that moment as I should tell people. This interview is sponsored by hostgator. If you're building a website if you've got a website or any built if you're just looking to play go with the company that's going to save you money especially now in these tough economic times. Save yourself some money. By going with hostgator they will host you right. They will even migrate you to them. If you're already with somebody else and save some money allow you to grow your business. If you've never started a company you've got some time right now while you're watching flakes just go sign up with hostgator dot com slash mixer jeep. Start aside play with it while. You're watching something goof around don't turn it into a business let yourself play explore and learn and as you do that you're gonNA find a passion that will allow you when you're ready to start that business again. If you've got a business hosting with the company move over to hostgator if it's right for you it'll save you a ton of money and do good for your business if you don't if you're just looking experiment it's inexpensive way to learn by doing go to hostgator dot com slash mixie when you use that slash mixer at the end of the URL. You'll be saving yourself a bunch of money by getting the lowest price that they have and you'll be Tom that you heard him on mixer. G hostgator dot com slash mix urging the consumer intercepts had. How did that work? How did you personally sell in those early days was really interesting either? Validate the product. I I Have a have a home. We would have a yoga retreats at actually or or different kinds of Sort of like a BNB and we had the buyer from whole foods and we. I made up product and took a two took it to her and her friends. That were all part of this. We can activity And to see if she liked it she really liked it and so is my first. Consumer intercept was then alternately. She helped me get into foods but beyond that you know really really getting Having face to face interaction with your target audience around the product Is really vital. You get more learnings from that interaction than you do from any kind of a survey you do on suzy or or or any sort of You Know Service Survey Monkey et CETERA. So yeah so. Consumer intercepts were gave me direction on flavour. Carbonation design everything and going to the store. Seeing somebody reach south to a similar product. Saying hey would you please try product exactly exactly? I would go to the shelf that it would sit on when they were up through shopping Exactly say Avenue Product. Would you be interested in China and giving your feedback? I feel awkward doing that. Walk up to strangers. No they were open to. They're open to it than I was excited that most people really excited the ear. See An entrepreneur that was trying to get some feedback on their product so they were very shy on giving once once they say drank. It's got a little bit like going back in time to To the lemonade. Stand where you just talking to somebody. Making one sale at a time seeing that they liked your product and maybe like you in association. What what did you learn specifically by talking to people by doing those Consumers Interests First Office? I learned you know whether or not the particular flavor worked in a fermented beverage so I learned about flavors and flavor works I learned about Acidification was too tart was too bitter. I learned about carbonation carbonation in a carbonated drink. You know how much carbonation is. A is one of the major flavor. So you mean that. There's some people who don't did you notice the people like more carbonation than you thought there is. There is a degree of carbonation could be altered Like a flavor and when you find that people find that in this particular trick they wanted less carbonation because it was already sort of a body Heart Flavor that they didn't want something to carbonated that at that. And then also we learned about sweetness and then we learned about brand I mean we would show them labels and get feedback on our first name of the company was Kafir Kafir and we were like people can pronounce. It was Kiefer and while we thought it was cool. People thought it was just couldn't identify so then out of the consumer intercepts. We began to idea around new names and ideas and would take it to them. Directionally got the name that we ultimately settled on Kavita. What IS KAFIR WELL CA? Feerick is get a key is effectively cheap. When you look at key it's in Many different languages it represents energy Fear out of fear is actually keefer. It was time for is is a dairy product that came that comes from the the the Far East where a natural bacteria would get in the sheep's milk or goat's milk. They would carry it on their saddle in the Caucasus mountains. The nomads the end. What would happen through the natural bacteria from the flora the stack of milk that they would carry the big begin to curdle and it became a digestive aid an elixir. 'cause it had alcohol in it and that was traditional. Keefer then they have made a commercialized source in the in the area of source. You could buy keefer which is Which again it's not fermented aside alcohol but has a lot of probiotics in rich that way. So that's Kiefer so one of our drinks is a water keefer. It's the same bacteria that takes this old goat and sheep's milk and turned it. In Two thousand euro drank turned that into sort of luring elixir. That got a little buzz and we we. We found a way to make an ache. Wiest format in the water for the same tyrian. Same Culture but put it in water and ferment. So that was one of our lines and so- Kefir era was the name of the average line that related to Keefer but it didn't translate to the consumer and I learned that through consumer intercept. And so. Did you even stop calling it Keefer. It looks like is that sparkling probiotic drink. Yeah so we changed it to Kavita an end and the sparkling pro. Soviet two lines sparkling probiotic drink which is a water keefer From the traditional chief for that was a milk based products same bacteria but we we through our own technology was that was that was and then we came out after that. So that's why why not come out with computer right away. What was it the selling request we were? We positioned ourselves as the antithesis as the antagonise of Khumbu because the water keefer was fermented probiotic beverage. But it wasn't Because it tasted warlike healthy soda drink and so it was much more consumer friendly. It was softer embody was in vinegary. So we went out and challenged all the retailers say. Why would you carry a computer when you can carry a convenient? It does the same thing. It's just tastes better and that was our way of getting our shop. So did that work did. They say we're GONNA take this new thing it did it work done And it it worked because we also had we also had help from the two thousand and ten national congressional. They pulled the computer market because they had alcohol in the product so when they pulled out a bat outside we were pitching our stuff. We ended up getting on the shelves of whole foods. Initial excuse me and in that. Yeah so we were successful with that. We grew that line to thirty million dollars in business. And then I was realizing that Drinkers wanted commute and Kavita drinkers sparking. Probiotic drink wanted that and I thought why not make a computer and service to different consumer so then I came out and we drove that a fifty million in sales in the modern world more than the water because it was a category already built and was growing and so while we were a waterkeeper that never developed as a category. We were own Adam So when we made a complete were part of a growing category and became one of the leaders in that category. You gotTa deal with whole foods at the time. Whole Foods encouraged store to find local entrepreneurs to by the local food to feature it in their store and it seems like. That's how you got into Austin my right and then you made an exclusive skew agreement with them. What was that we we Time I think they still do this. They like to be innovators and team with new entrepreneurial companies and so we did a deal where we went exclusive with them on a new innovation. Big Remake was take us put us on I give us a shot and we will be exclusive to for six months or nine months or a year depending on the the the deal and what they would do they give behind it. Launch it in there at the time was maybe three hundred stores have four hundred fifty and it would be the it would be the proof of concept getting a retailer behind you to give you enough distribution so that it could be fully representational of the market price versus a few stores is. Cisco were wherever was really important And they really they really. Wholesome really made a lot of companies they. They validate them. They made him an ultimately. Treated the better for you. Food and beverage space by doing such as a lot of gratitude to them. And what was the product you started off giving them? Sparking probiotic drinking water with the lemon ginger was the first one and a or what year did you start off. We got one. We incorporated late two thousand nine. We went to market two thousand ten. Two thousand ten to effectively fall of two thousand sixteen when two thousand nine was in was a bad year. Two thousand eight was when the world fell apart. Then two thousand nine. The world was suffering from it. Took awhile what was it like to start a company back then question. It's sort of like starting a company right now so It was hard. You know. Listen everybody was. It was really hard to raise capital. you know. We had to raise capital at a really low valuation Even though we got The initial launch and whole foods. And you know remember the private equity owner coming in and meet with me and he looked at me and he said you know. I don't know about this but I believe in you and I'm going to invest in you so at the end of the day Was a lot of luck and a lot of luck to get capitalized at a time. When people were were were not writing checks. Sign you I think you saw two things. I think he saw someone that was going to not give up. I think he really felt a sense of commitment And the other thing I remember him saying is that he liked the way I put together so when he asked me questions and I was I think I was. I think I was sort of sustained. Didn't like how I build from question into a into a reason to believe or a story or a message and so I think those are the two things I think he saw the logic and I think in in launching any business creative and innovative is is or whatever it is in the day. There's a certain amount of focus logic commitment that needs to drive the business and logic was this is a new category health healthy food people are starting to move towards it. It's getting bigger right. What about what about the idea that at the time people were losing their homes or upside down in their mortgages. They were in financial trouble. They lost their jobs Why why did you think that people would still buy this new drink? That was more expensive. I think at the time it was so clear that the whole better for you Elsie Movement. Brink's was was was rising and that would lift all ships right for that so I think ultimately in any new business knowing that you're part of a rising tide helps offset a lot of other macro influences that could that could tort. You know your your checkups right if I'm trying to eat healthier even if a soda is an old. Traditional Soda is cheaper than the healthy drink. It's not that much cheaper. I'm going to move to the healthy drink. And that's what you're seeing in the world okay Let's talk about that. How you got it right into bottles. How you how I know that you had some challenges with getting this Getting the product put together. Bottling it getting into stores. Can you talk a little bit about that? I mean first off was it. We'RE MAKING A. We're making a drink in that. I mentioned putting it into putting it into a bottle And so a couple of things that that we had to innovate around one. Was you know how do you make it in scale it Others were making it And not trying to find economic ways of scaling it and so one of the first things I wanted to do was say how do I how do I create a manufacturing process where we could We could cost effectively make more in less time and that was the first challenge. And how do we make it and get it into the bottle Cost effectively co packing. We had a lot of challenges in going out to co packers of because quality and cost was really sketchy. So once we once we work through how to make a lot of it for a for less time normally Takes Thirty Days Gilbertson. And normally they make it in five gallon jugs give or take and some great rans out. There are still doing that. Give or take. Things are changing very much but some of the great brands out there that that the the one that I respect. Gt Dave I know. Gt and what he did with his was amazing. He's you know the icon of of the category. So he had his way and we wanted to do it. A different way to at better economics So that we could appeal to a larger company strategic company to sell so finding a way to make a much more cost effective way was before route. Checked up parts So then you know we ultimately build around bottling facility we realized that paying you know exorbitant rates having low quality with someone else co packing or co manufacturing. It wasn't the way to go. So you know we raised give or take ten million dollars dedicated to doing our own line and I hired a young man out of Pepperdine University who was sent. Mba who just had a penchant for operation supply chain. I mean he could win. Anywhere could have been you know could walk for upward Google. You know is he had that kind of intellect a an interest and skills of through sixty anyone going manufacturing supply chain so he came in. After six months he built each conceived of and built this manufacturing line that was state of the art that PepsiCo still uses and replicated it on the east coast to to increase a production for that. So we made our own bottom line in that gave us control of brought down costs which made us ultimately compete at price and have strong gross profit margins so when a big strap wants to buy a company especially in this space you know at least with Pepsico. They didn't WanNa just by some company that had a lot of revenue and company sued by revenue on. They really wanted a company that had profitability. So we build a business so that we can not only grow and take share But also increase product margin. Gross profit margin. We did that by owning our own production. Look if you see me looking down because they keep taking notes on what you're saying and then I've got follow up questions to ask you like how do you promote this. How why doesn't Pepsi and coke? Why don't they just create these products by themselves? It looks like they have a habit of buying them. How you got together with Pepsi and a few other questions but first let me tell you about my second sponsors. A company called top talent says about them. I'll tell you what happened with my kids school this week. We got an email from the school which he mailed from the school talking pre K. They're sending us a zooming zoom link. This is the school whip in tons of money. I literally paid for months and months while my kid was in the womb to lock in the spot at the school in San Francisco if we ever wanted to reach them. They don't answer e mail except once a week. If you want to talk to them just walk. Take your shoes off and go talk to them in person. They're that old school there so doing zoom because the kids school is closing. They want the kids to get to know each other and to do their singing circle and so on so I get on with zoom with them. They don't even know how to operate zoom. Every kid is screaming on the Mike. And they don't know that they could just mute zoom for everybody but they're on it. They're playing with the other kids. School is sending me this resource to learn math at home using software. Go Holy Moly. These schools that were like pride themselves on being luddites now encouraging software. This is the future software still. Is here software still growing and if you're out there in the software space and you still believe in this base want to expand your business right. I'm going to introduce you to a company that will let you hire phenomen developers. We're talking about Silicon Valley developers at lower prices because these people working internationally often from their homes. 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I rg Y top Tau Dot com slash mixer. G. O. Call up even if you're not ready to hire right now get to know what's possible for you with top towel meeting that bill that that was a pretty good read. I wasn't even read. It was just me talking. I was wondering like as a sales person. What is going through your head is. I'm doing a sales pitch for my sponsor does feel like uncomfortably uncomfortable. Like a stick. Or you say wow. This guy's good. I think it's part of what makes it or and you're good at so I was listening to how you took a a personal experience in you connected with US sponsor in perfect. It'll thanks to self-improvement. I know you had that Yoga place I I am still into it. I'm certainly I certainly focus on myself when I give myself time I quit. I told you I've got photos of you from before and preparation for this interview. You've got like a real charismatic. Look here people are not GonNa get it because they're listening but maybe they'll let me some of it will carry up. You've always look professional now. You've got something. What are you doing to improve yourself? What's one weird or different thing? That's uniquely yours that you've done to improve. I've I've created my own sort of Warning Workout Program with twenty. So so I did an enormous a combination of yoga a core training Breathing exercises and meditation. So I I have this. I put together a little bit of everything and end of the day. I on the other thing I did this morning. Which is really interesting. I've got this this this I guess it's a swinger something or at so it's like a like a yoga swing and I I get inside of it. Could Flip yourself upside down and you could hang upside down for a long period of time and I did that for probably six seven minutes and I think it kind of makes me feel better so yeah I mean I think everybody needs to find their own sort of you know. Some of the greatest entrepreneurs are not only great thinkers workers leaders execution oriented masters but they're also ones that really have a deep sense of balance in focus on themselves. Some income NAP summit comes naturally. They don't have to really do much to have that deep center that inner health and they do what they do to keep themselves healthy others have to do more and work harder or you do have some of them. Yeah somewhere in the Middle I. Some of it comes natural but if but if I'm not I'm not focused on it and really working at than I could I could look like I look at some of the photos which is not as healthy as I what do you do? You ever seen. Nuke Not Healthy. But maybe in your mind. It's not as healthy as you could be a What do you do you do to make sure that you stay on top of it? I schedule it in your. If it's in your calendar happens absolutely if I don't fit it in my calendar busy I I wake up. Wake up three thirty in the morning and I can't wait to get the war you know so so so when you get into that sort of get that rush literally and then physically WanNa rush and move unless you scheduled time to like stop and take your yourself. It never happens usually if you don't do it warning time even more unlikely because usually it's true for me. I I need some APP and it's always. I love running. It's my thing and still I won't do it unless there's an APP that tells me here's how many times you've done it this week and I know I want to hit at least four four days at least five miles. It's it's weird how we need these external pushes by the way. I've always had this question. Why does PepsiCo not see the same thing that you're seeing? Do the same math. You're doing and say all right. People want drinks probiotic drinks healthy drinks. We're going to get into this. We see this guy. Billy somewhere in the middle of the country or somewhere out there. We're going to jump into it and beat him. Why do they never do that? They try to from time to time. They brand extensions or line extensions with gatorade or CETERA. But it's really create a you needed powerade. Right is the competitor thing. Okay look. I mean it's really hard even coca-cola funny because when I initially went to I think this was actually what was going on. I went into Pepsi. I got a term sheet They got cold feet at the eleventh hour because they felt like they could do it internally so I went to Cope Donald Lantamot with coach. Got a term sheet from them in my backer showed Pepsi. The term sheet from Coke Pepsi. Close right away because WanNa Masan so I think ultimately you know Pepsico and Co and other big brands other big. Cpg companies really do look for innovation outside of their ecosystem because by nature. They can't think beyond their box when you're in that a institutionalized box so it's the same reason why the Microsoft's or the Google Amazon's they ultimately acquire new innovative companies. That would take it's just difficult to innovate out of your given box internally. So I think that's what I think. They realize they make an initial investment before they did the acquisition they did emitted individual initial investment and then they Settled aboard and gave us Some good insights on compliance and legal and distribution office with distributions And there was a built-in auction that at a certain time triggered their ability to by us and it was really interesting in June of sixteen was the first month that they're option open to a twelve month auction and we were growing exponentially so hopeful that they would. It would wait. They didn't cause valuation was predicated on that. Actually I talked to the board and I was saying. Maybe we should message to them that we're not ready to sell. And we don't want to sell even though they're contractually obligated because they don't want to buy it and we decided not to do that which is probably a good idea but you know I mean look I mean had had. We held the company for another year. We would have gotten twice as much rolling fast so and the way they do it. Is they do this as an investment because they want to learn and they wanna make sure that it really why. Why did they do this? Because I think Jesse it's Lord from Zico told me he had a similar situation. I mean look I mean they they still do a loves young entrepreneurial companies like once they qualify the category they invest they take seed or observers and they want to watch the company from the inside outs to get to know it to help it and then they get comfortable with it and then ultimately many times not all they have an auction as part of their investment to that triggers upon a certain you know when they get to a certain size that they could buy is and it's just an auction of Sun and obligation so you know the company really does PepsiCo or coke or nasty or they if they invest and then they walk away the company's really in trouble because other potential buyers will look at it as the Qissa death might it. That's the concern. You know. I've got one other question about that and then we'll come into flying embers which got here and that is how did you promote. I've seen this as I said. I've seen comedian my house. I've seen it at stores. I never in my life seen an ad. How does anybody even know to go buy it how do you what do you do get sales? S really interesting. It's a seventy percent of this category is shopped at point of sale. Brought through at a home is what they call so it will get a lot of demos. We didn't leans a millions of dollars a year. I think the two thousand sixteen we did two and a half million dollars demos or point of sale we were at the all the different Vessels We do we did too. And they do now. Digital Geo targeting digital so that. When you're going into a store you could be. Hit and digit is also customer specific. Marketing were retailers of loyalty programs. Albertson's has what's called just for you so you can get a promotion on something else based on what your basket. What you shocking bonded they print out. But there's also online promotions based on what people buy in the stores if they're part of these membership programs breakfast so a robot but yeah I think as it relates to the better for US space You know it you know. It's not a lot of traditional advertise And it's really high. Touch high. Touch interaction is the Hansel and I think ultimately that's And then it's word of mouth and then which. Professional Chela Festival China okay. Also you I guess the that's where the labels so important but even the flavor names like Mojo lemon mint coconut right like you got to just try and see what that is if I would I would have bought it just to see what it what it is all right then you sold your done. Why come back with flying embers? This organic hard Camacho question. You Know I. I was noticing that the Noticing that the better at the better for you alcohol space was where the NONOC space was and ten twelve years ago and I thought well who's really built a company and brand around better few and so I went to work and we saw and I saw people that were drinking Kabukicho. That actually liked it when it went over the legal limit and I said well you know why not make a Kombucha that actually had on it since the non outcome Bucci Manufacturers. Were doing everything to keep it out. Even though people kinda wanted wanted a lot of people said the even a little bit of alcohol it feel it and they liked it and so we find out then you know that was a whole marketplace. That wasn't being tapped into four. So we're going on. The people want healthy healthy alcohol. What I'm seeing is. They always seem to want alcohol. That isn't painful in the mouth right. They they want the thing that makes them feel like they're not drinking alcohol but still get the buzz. Feels like I can see that. Salt Lake the Seltzer right and before that there was the bottles James along time ago in the all these things come out to say you want to drink alcohol but you don't like the taste this is going to make it easier. I haven't seen anything that's as people WANNA healthier. Drink how what are you? Seeing the first thing that came a phenomenon was what's not in it that makes it healthy. So what's not in it? As as you look at the Seltzer market from the non out from the non alka Seltzer to the alka Seltzer. It's about session ability. And what's not at that? You know low carbs. No carbs low calorie no sugar though lie bet. Is that creating something more crafty for the craft drinker. That actually has the new one next to. You has no no sugar. Low carbs here Gluten like it's a list of all the things he doesn't have so we check the box on what it doesn't have and then we go ahead and put things in there that make it better for you like adapt to jets you know And probiotics like robotics so that by by making something that is craftier got a little bit more flavor profile. You put more in it. The bet is that this is the next. Gen Next Generation Better for you. Alcohol product that goes beyond. What's not in it with the Seltzer and trying to bring up? Identify another target. Audience that Once more in their drink than what they're get it says zero gram sugar right here but when I look at the ingredients I c sugar we from that so we make it with sugar. We fermented dry so infirm. Movie firm at drug completely dry you get you have no residual sugar inner so. Yeah it's part of the ingredients because initially we start with so yet. Your bylaw compelled the manufacturing process. But it's not in the end product S. Correct it's free. You should a firm at and then you firm it all the way Dr. I never even noticed that one hundred calories. I think because it's bigger than the standard soda. Can I thought that it would have more calories calorie counter that Waylon but The the twelve months or eighty five galleries on the sixteen is. Yeah so yeah sixteen. They took they hooked me up. Dude I gotTa tell you your people. I can see so much in a company based on the people who ideal with their people right now. Who are pitching so aggressively to be on Mexican. This and I could see that their staff has no clue about what's going on in the world of no consideration. Your I don't know Julia I don't know Susan you know they work for you right. These are amazing. People like the level of considerations like they just took care of me with this. It's just I caught message from last night. I said here's a situation San Francisco. What can we do? There's always like a sense of heart without feeling like they're I don't know too much really. Good people import as I'm going with that but I just I get such a good feeling with some companies when I see people who who work with them and so now how you GonNa Survive in a recession. We're we're about to go to pay enough economic times. They say alcohol's recession proof but it's not whenever they shut down all the bars and restaurants right it so we're actually our sales are up. I mean you know. We're still relatively small. Company just went national. And you know we're So we got a lot of retailers publix Harris Teeter Wegmans Albertson's Vaughn's etcetera but all of a sudden. They're doing their resets their spring recess or they take out the old the deleted item. Say put in the new ones. And we're not. We're like in the back room. Either you know unable to get on a shelf yet with a lot of it But unless we are in You know five thousand endorsed nationwide and we know that the resets are going to be coming and our businesses up. We had a record week last week. I mean ultimately what do people want I mean they want their they wanna they wanNA drink at home. Even if they're cooped up and they want to drink something that makes them feel good about drinking And usage education for this is not just at a party or something that is you know. It's not something that's crushable is something that really invokes a little bit more. You know just intention that I'm going to drink something that actually could you know affect my overall wellbeing even though Scott four and a half percent alcohol on it and so I think that property that value proposition has never really been to market in alcohol. And while it's a small we've done a lot of data. It's a small slice of the adult beverage market. It's growing and those that can deliver in authentic brand that really tastes commercial but actually s something in it. I think we're seeing people were buying people. Were working with floor. Stacks in different places around the country. Competing against michelob. Ultra light et CETERA. In we're in selective stores were or selling more so we'll see how it tastes great. I'm not a computer drink. I told you everyone everywhere in San Francisco if if they got If they want to keep the San Francisco techies working in their office. They have one of those. Little computer handles where you can. I've never been into this. I like I think it's milder than Kabukicho. It has a flavor that doesn't feel like I WANNA drink. I haven't tried the the Seltzer drinks yet. But I wanNA feel something I wanna feel something that slows me down a little bit. I'm not trying to get drunk when I drink alcohol. I WanNa feel quiet and appreciative and have a conversation and it. It does actually WANNA chill relax. Alcohol does relax you before it any breach you are are are on this is about no conscious consumption. And so yeah. That's all right now that I I was. I would usually drink it here. But I've got a big interviews while I'm still at the office and for once I drove instead riding my bike so I want to be careful but now that we've done the interview. I got the cans here. I get the drink with my wife which is Exciting thing she usually drinks wine and I usually drink whisky now. We got some we can drink together and I'm looking forward to it. Thanks so much for doing this. I appreciate you being here today. It's been a tough day around the world and Like I said I talked to your team last night and I appreciate that. They said yes. Look Today Rave. The company is called in the can and drink is called flying embers. Now you can find a lot of stores and you can also ask them for in case they're not putting it on display flying embers one that I'm going to try next is the ancient Berry And I know the one that Olivia is GonNa go for. She's GonNa go for the one that has tumor for some reason lately. Anything WITH TUMOR X. She's been drinking. I want to thank you for doing this. And thank you to the two sponsors host. Gator and top towel by everyone be while.
He fell from a parking lot
"This is an ABC podcast on Monday. A police officer in Hong Kong shot an unarmed twenty one year old protester with live communication at point blank range. The entire thing was caught on video tape later later that day video emerged of a middle aged man being doused in petrol and set alight after arguing with protesters. These videos show a snapshot of how both police and protesters seem to be upping the ante in this ongoing face off. I'm really jeans and I'm Christine Gate and today on the signal I know. There's been a significant escalation intention violence in Hong Kong this week but the student protest remain resolute. So what's China's new tactic and bringing all of this to an end so this reason spike in violence in Hong Kong started on Friday after a twenty two year. Old Uni student died. Yeah he fell from a copper roof roof after running away from police the previous Sunday and it's being called the first official death of a protester inactions linked to police. The the desert of the student surnamed her name Chow did affect people of course because jess does create a different dynamic. And we've heard in public calls for quote Unquote Revenge Bench Gordon. Chang is an Asia analyst and author of the coming collapse of China clearly. The four then protesters Really were were looking to fight the police on because there have been allegations that three protesters on August twenty first were beaten to death in the prince. Edward Mass Transit Railway Station and since that time protesters have Just taking a very different attitude towards the police. The police police also have been extremely brutal and so this has become a fight on both sides and the descendant of violence has been marked specially especially since the end of August but of course with the what is called the the first death of a protester. an action linked to the police Clearly the things got out of control. We don't know if that student was actually a protester But he was running away from tear gas and so therefore His causes taken up by Everyone although we feel sad we need to to continue our movement so We need to gather together and here and voice our something to the police foles so this past weekend has been one of disturbances across the territory especially on Monday. A Hong Kong traffic policeman shot at unarmed student of purchaser in the torso protester dressed in black like many of the protesters are faceless covered. He's approaching a Hong Kong police officer in a wide open area The protests are didn't have anything thing in his hands Obviously was unarmed. Did Not pose a risk to threat to the safety of the officer. Officer wasn't a wide open. Area could easily easily a retreat. It but didn't took out a gun shot the protester asbury close range and clearly this was an unjustified on justified use of force and that shooting isn't the only extreme thing that happened on Monday also there was an argument between People in Hong and One of the people who is expressing pro-beijing statements was doused with some sort of liquid and set on fire. He also was admitted to hospital in critical condition and remains that way with Burns on twenty eight percent body the discovery well have been staged and indeed We don't even know. It's not entirely beyond China's communist us to of Sacrificed one of their own. Perhaps without his knowledge that this was going to happen. I'm not saying that's what occurred. But that's a possibility and until we know more about the perpetrator I. I don't think we can say that. This has been a Hong Kong protestor who did this so no one's apprehended over that attack yet and there's also reports of protesters facing off with police at universities throwing petrol bombs and police yes using tear gas and pepper spray and aiming the guns at people and then this is footage of a police officer on a motorbike driving into a crowd of protesters several times ramming something a little before taking away so later on Monday. Hong Kong's late Carrie Lam gave this press conference in which she he condemned the protesters and code them the enemy of the people. Finally I want to appeal to everyone. In Hong Kong to stay calm the frame from taking part in any unlawful activities. This is not language that Hong Kong leaders would use. This is a language that the Communist Party uses and matter of fact they've used it Routinely in recent years And of course this goes back to the era of Mao Zedong. The founder of the People's Republic of China and was widely heard during the cultural revolution is what started in the mid nineteen sixties. The thing here is that it. Carrie Lam is using chinese-language and this comes after. She had two crucial meetings at the beginning of this month she had meeting on November fourth. Where see Japan the Chinese ruler in Shanghai and she also had a meeting day or two later with the Hong Long? Jiang who is the member of the Politburo Standing Committee the Portfolio for Hong Kong. So this is Essentially Carrie Lam getting her orders and given the even more aggressive tactics of the police since those two meetings we can assume that she got her her orders from the top of the Chinese leadership to move aggressively against a Hong Kong people. Essentially Beijing is is forcing goosing. Carrie Lam to take a a hotline. I think so because this doesn't seem like the Carrie Lam who was elected chief executive This his mirrors Beijing's position on this and ask as we've seen the events last two or three days we've also heard word State media in China step up their attacks on protesters so this does seem to be coordinated right. So according Gordon Carrie Lam has go to roads from Beijing and she's following through. Yeah and Gordon thinks that part of that plan involves a kind of unofficial ray structure of the Hong Kong Police. There are a number of videos which show that People from the mainland are now operating on the streets of Hong Kong in the uniform informed of the Hong Kong Police in I think one of the more telling videos. There is a Hong Kong riot. Policemen who is obviously from Hong Kong because he's speaking colloquial colloquial Cantonese. Then he turns around on to a couple of other riot officers and starts talking to them in Mandarin. Remember Hong Kong cantonese-speaking city and The first Hong Kong riot officer speech calls them comrade now to to Hong Kong. Policemen would not use that term when addressing each other there's other videos Another one of them is Is a line of Hong Kong policeman who who absolutely refuse to show their Hong Kong tleyss identity cards and who apparently don't Speak Candies Because uh there's a A PRO democracy figure. I think he's in the council. I forget Talking to and they just impassive as if they don't understand understand so there is growing evidence that There are either Hong Kong a plea Chinese troops or Chinese police who are now wearing con-conflict doc police uniforms and the one thing that that has always struck me is that once we start to see these videos and it coincided sided with a breakdown in discipline in Hong Kong police if we go back to year two years ago. The Hong Kong police were recognized as the most professional professional and disciplined force in of its kind in Asia and now they've just completely broke ranks. There's very little discipline on. They're acting savagely. This is not the Hong Kong police force of a year ago. And we've got to ask. Why has this occurred? And especially since and this Change in behavior does coincide with these videos of the obviously Chinese personnel in the Hong Kong. Police we can guess that may be. This is very much what Beijing okay. So if he's right that's interesting and pretty crofty tactic to infiltrate the Hong Kong Police. Gordon reckons it shows China's realizing it needs to be more and more covert the in dealing with Hong Kong. This is not one thousand nine hundred nine Tenement Square. Where you had these big broad boulevards low buildings on each side? Chinese armor armor tanks and armored personnel carriers just swept through from the Western approaches of Beijing into Tenement Square. And they killed almost it will. Hong Kong is very different. It's defenders territory. Scott narrow streets and alleys got lot of tall buildings. Every apartment building is a fort for the hostels which means that these kids can go to do these apartment buildings third or fourth floor ring down explosives or petrol bombs on concentration of Chinese troops and then just completely disappear and I don't think Beijing has has an answer Militarily for that and certainly politically this would be extremely disadvantageous. China because countries would start to impose sanctions. Asians don't want an open display of raw Chinese power on Hong Kong streets which I think would enrage many people across Hong Kong society that is the signal for today and if you'd like to get in touch L. email is the signal at ABC dot net. And if you like you can give us a review on apple podcasts. That helps other people find us and we'll be back tomorrow. See you later bye. You've been listening to an ABC Z.. podcast discover more great A._B._C.. podcasts live radio and exclusives on the A._B._C. Listen Up.
(Special) The wrong apocalypse democracy! Yawn.
"Support for the world comes from hint water with a touch of true fruit flavor hint water is available in over twenty five flavors, including watermelon, blackberry, and pineapple with no sugar, sweeteners or calories. In stores or delivered from drink. Hint Dot Com. Heads up fans of the world. We're putting a little something. Extra in your feed things that go boom, a bonus podcast to loyal listeners of the world from pr ex things that go boom. Let's roll. So I know one girl whose name was Sushi. because. She likes Sushi so much. Yeah okay. And I know this other guy he's name is. Oh because at the time he just broke up with with his girlfriend felt heartbroken, so that's his name. Oh. Yeah, that's so sad. In China some people give themselves English names. It's a tonal language Ma Ma. Ma Ma and historically some westerners have either failed or just refused to learn how to pronounce Chinese names, so your name is Connie. That's your English name. How did you choose that? While counties was actually my second English name I had another one when I was in middle school in high school My first name was Juliet. This is Connie may picker formerly. Juliette. I was I was in love with Leo. Oh. We were all in love with Leonardo DiCaprio and deal was. He was Roma in Romeo and Juliet so I loved that movie so much. From My Lips Vine, my sin is purged and have my lips. Isn't there took sinful my lips? Trespass sweetly. Urge giving my sin again. Is it common very common for folks to use their English names in China? It's very common for my generation. Connie was born in the eighties s but it's not quite the same way. Younger generation born the nineties I noticed that a lot of these folks. They just use their Chinese names when when they speak English when they communicate with foreigners Is there actually a resistance to using an English name? I think so I think a lot of that is done. Consciously because the younger generation has a lot more cultural confidence I would say. So when they when they communicate with foreigners they feel like. I have a name. It may be difficult for for you to pronounce, but I'm. GonNa use it any way you just have to learn. Figure it out. I'm Lacey Healy and Mrs Things that go boom, your friendly neighborhood, national security podcast today with China's rise has come greater confidence, and in some ways that's great. We should all have the right to use our names. But it's also come with a new wave, nationalism and more authoritarian. It's like amped up surveillance and censorship more than a million wiegert and others are believed to be detained calls them thought transformation. Can't I love the Communist Party of China. This man has written meanwhile in the US. They don't want these protesters to be there even though they were peaceful. Resident of law and order. Some of wondered whether we ourselves might be slipping into a democratic style of government. What you do an authoritarian regime as you de-legitimize the press, and we're reckoning with our own villiers's democracy. Especially where racial justice is concerned. So as China moves to assert itself on the world stage in Hong Kong and the US struggles with foundational values like liberty and justice for all. We wondered. Is Democracy losing. In politics people often tell you not to get lost in the weeds, but the weeds by vox is a podcast for people who love the weeds, because that's where politics becomes policy, the stuff that shapes your life and the lives of the people you care about. Every Week Matthew Yglesias is joined by variety of leading box, voices and policy experts to dig into the weeds unimportant issues, so if you're the kind of person that likes to dive deep into the weeds, or you just want to keep up with the current political landscape. This show is for you. Subscribe to the weeds for free right now on your favorite podcast APP to get new episodes automatically from box and the vox media podcast network cutting me. Picker has thought a lot about China's rise and the nationalistic tone senior homeland. And it's cost her. But before we get to all that we have to go back to nineteen seventy two when president. Richard Nixon famously traveled to China cracking the ice on two decades of estrangement between the two countries. Wait time that you don't. Art Talks have been characterized by Franks. By honesty by determination, and above all by mutual respect. Just a few years later, China's chain-smoking leader Deng Xiaoping kicked off something called reform and opening up relaxing economic controls and carefully opening the door to the rest of the world. FLASH FORWARD TO NINETEEN NINETIES CHINA. Bicycle store the streets, but the first McDonald's are also just beginning to appear and Connie is growing up on a steady diet of friends and Seinfeld. She's listening to a lot of American music, too. I mean ninety is also in China. You know the it was. The era was a decade of of cassettes, cassette tapes, and I can get these cheap cassettes from-from wholesale markets, so there's young Connie with her Walkman on listening to what Chinese young people are referring to as classical European and American music by classical. They mean like eighties. Music so that's where that's where you know song like yesterday. Once more, it's yesterday. A. got into backstreet boys. Right here waiting by Richard Marx. A Those were over played NCAA. Yes, so so that that's the kind of music. I grew up in so Connie Grope with Richard Marx, but she also groped with Karl. Marx She had a patriotic. At school to promote loyalty to the Communist. Party of China and she studied mouths. Little Red Book Mal founded the People's Republic of China and oversaw the country's resurgence, but he also enacted brutal campaigns like the Cultural Revolution that stressed conformity and control. Today China's kind of a strange political animal. It kept its state run Communist system, but it also has a shingle on the door and open for business. It's kind of a communist capitalist hybrid. A socialist country with almost. Hundred Billionaires. Mao Zedong's old Shanghai home is now part of a glitzy shopping mall. Now in the nineties with Kylian Walkman reform and opening up brought high hopes for a political opening to. Conventional. Western wisdom assume that inevitably democracy would follow. After all. Who Doesn't love democracy? A government by the people for the people, elections and independent judiciary freedom of speech. In nineteen ninety-three, even the Peace Corps was invited to China. It seemed a promising sign. There's a lot of engaging discussions. Most students about you know pretty sensitive topics about politics and other things. That have topics like the nineteen eighty nine Tiananmen Square massacre where thousands of student protesters were killed in the bloody military crackdown. Today, that piece of history is Tampa when China, you can't even mentioned on social media. But in two thousand three. Connie learned all about it from a pretty critical western documentary that was just available to watch early Beijing University even after the soldiers opened fire. Many people couldn't believe they were using live ammunition. A student I knew practically crawled out from under the tax. Smokers, classmates were crushed. It wasn't just controversial Chinese history that bubbled up in the ninety S. Hollywood blockbusters with all Western decadence. were on offer to so early on. I guess I got interested in language as well as American culture. Watching movies like titanic. In case you missed that another Leonardo. DiCaprio reference that was the movie that was the movie. That was the moment that I was like that's it. I'm going to America Oh well, I I get that. Yes. I was like okay. I really need to meet liles. I'm going to study English. You've a harder and eventually I'm going to go to California and meet him. Connie graduated in two thousand and seven, and she headed straight for the United. States not actually. Would but to Washington, State University to get her master's. Plot twist. Her future husband actually traveled with her. They were dating at the time and serious enough to move to the states together so sorry, Leo guess she never really had a chance after all. When Connie move back to China in two thousand, fifteen Shanghai was a bustling metropolis with glistening new skyscrapers, shopping malls than apple stores Chinese buyers were consuming so much. They were driving up the cost of art and fine wine. But Connie also found government propaganda posters. Everywhere, That changed it changed. Yes, they changed quite a bit. They deem data ability. Social stability is is a priority for the country. Specifically, with regard to your rising nationalism, birth or things that that had changed politically Were there things that you noticed immediately? The things that noticed immediately is probably Censorshi-. Have, this American professor friend who teaches at a at a university. Shanghai and he told me that he was given a list of things that he cannot discussing class. And of course that includes a three ts Taiwan Tibet and tim and And what about Propaganda surveillance had had those increased in the time that you were away. Yes, yes, growing up in this system I mean censorship or propaganda. That's nothing new to me, but when I came back things. On a completely different level. there is just more. Big! BIGWIG as propaganda. Posters News programs, and and they're also becoming more sophisticated. That's why noticed. There are a rap videos. Be made a bell. You know congressional meetings in Beijing. On the dark side of the morning. Imagine a rap video about the Republican Congressional Caucus. There was even a slick talk show called. Mark's got it right aimed at indoctrinating China's millennials. Playing. Yoshida one online chats were monitored for anything that might be deemed threatening to stability and at one point Connie was censored. She was blocked for three full days from the popular. We chat APP. She thinks it was because of comments. She made about a standoff with South Korea over the deployment of a US anti military system. But she never knew for sure. That's part of the intimidation. So then I guess you kind of have to tell your colleagues. Blocked which is I I don't know if that's something you would want to have to the I did. I actually did tell? I told them I was putting. We chat jail. then. Up. But nationalism has found. Its way among my friends as well. Connie wrote about it for the Sub China News outlet. Her article has called. Nationalism ruined my Chinese friendships. Connie Redman excerpt describing dinner with friend. They just had a heated political discussion. Toward the end of my dinner with Megyn and other friends, she suggested I download an APP called Shushi Changle literally translated as study to strengthen the country. The platform is overseen by the government's Propaganda Department, which produces instructional content for the general public and party members in particular the APPS, content ranges from CPI history to Xi Jinping's most recent speech from Chinese medicine to tourist attractions. This way Megyn told me you can familiarize yourself with China's perspective and hopefully correct or Western bias. Connie's oldest friends seem willing to overlook some major human rights abuses like the massive forced detention and quote. Re Education of Muslim leakers in the Xinjiang region. They'd say this was justified for national security. And when Connie disagreed. Imply that she'd been brainwashed in the United States. Or worse. They just go quiet. Seems like I am not speaking Chinese language, because I'm not agreeing with you know where where the with their nationalist sentiment, they just come from a point of view where we Chinese think this and you know. We think that we're better. We're doing a great job. And if CETERA and when I came out, being critical I was never literally ostracized by friends I mean that's people I grew up with. They just stopped responding to any of my comments, and that's what hurts. They automatically put me in a different camp. Feeling. You know that I am speaking on behalf of the enemy. Connie realized that there is no room for debate anymore. China wasn't looking for the political engagement. The Nixon had tried to script and history when he made his famous visit Nineteen seventy-two. Going forward. China would write its own scrapped. At home and Increasingly. Around the world. In the fall of twenty nineteen, the People's Republic of China celebrated its seventieth anniversary with its biggest ever military parade. The scene as spectacular. Row, upon row of soldiers march in perfect formation down the steps of the monument to the People's Heroes as cannon fire bills there. But the showstopper. Were a bit more cutting edge than cannons, the shops combat, joy and hypersonic missile sleek dot, the flies at more than five times the speed of sound. Having recently put an end to term limits President Xi. Jinping looks on from the exact spot where Mao declared the country's founding. And just to be sure we don't miss the symbolism of the moment. He wears a black. Mountlake suit may order. Mungo Long. Way To go the TV, she tells his audience. No force can stop the advance of Chinese people and the Chinese nation. It seemed like a pretty big break from China's pass strategy of Hydra strengthen. Bide your time. It also seemed to Hark back to something. She said a year earlier at a party congress when he presented the China model as quote, a new option for other countries, you might say and alternative to democracy. Suddenly, we, we've seen over the last year's resurgence of autocracy with dictators. Who once would felt that they We rations. That's the Asha Monk, a political scientist John Tompkins University and the of the people vs democracy. they now feel emboldened and missy. No, you know what actually POPs. We have a future awful. But, certainly true of people that Ladimir Putin in Russia, and may be true of the leadership in China's well, Yasha says when other countries look at China. Well four decades of unstoppable economic growth certainly helps to sell the message that it's motto is working. Just look at the numbers. The World Bank says China has lifted more than eight hundred and fifty million people out of poverty since opening its economy in the late nineteen seventies. Low wages dangerous factory jobs those were part of the bargain, but still. Those people who? May Not have had running water would not have had table electricity would. Often have come hungry. When able to access. A high quality educational in some cases any real education at all sin, so it's unsurprising that there's a lot of people who've description who have a reservoir of trust Volvo political system, and if you lived through the cultural revolution like Connie's parents did. You may just be grateful for political. Full stop no matter. WHAT THE PRICE TAG! Of course there is some limited descend on the mainland and protests against the regime had become a constant fixture in Hong Kong at least until recently, when Beijing enacted a new security law that severely restricts political and civil rights. This was the moment China tightened its grip on Hong. Kong this is unprecedented, basically going above local authorities and saying he's of protests that have rocked on call after the pasta could now be closed. Does subversion or secession and punished with up to life in prison? But then. America's democratic ideal. Isn't standing quite as strong as it once was. When Beijing sees trump talking about dominating protesters in front of the White, house. It looks hypocritical. In just one example recently a US State Department spokesperson called for freedom. Loving people around the world to stand with Hong Kong. He did this on twitter. A spokesperson from China's Foreign Ministry responded I can't breathe. and. It's not just China. This kind of thing looks hypocritical on the World Americans included. Yasha zone research supports this. He says well populous autocrats or having a moment now are parts of the world. People right here in the United States are also growing dissatisfied with democracy. His research shows that more than two-thirds of older Americans consider it absolutely essential to live in a democracy. By skipped unto millennials. And less than a third feel that way. And what we found was bad. Younger Americans are much less likely to say. It's really important to live in a democracy and autumn. Americans that a lot more young Americans. Savvy like the idea of many rule of a strong system of government is nita who doesn't have to bother with parliamentary elections. And other pretty shocking finding Ha. So, they said well wait a minute under the normal rules. I'll be out in twenty twenty four, so we may have to go an extra term. Going crazy. And all of this is part of a larger trend. If you! Look at the Democracy Index, which is compiled by the Economist Intelligence Unit. It offers a snapshot of the Health of Democracy around the world by asking a series of simple questions like our press freedoms being protected. Then it provides rankings and last year North Korea was at the bottom Norway was the top and the US. Came in twenty fifth. In the flawed democracy category. By, the global average also fell to the worst level since the index started thirteen years ago. In short. Democracy is stalling. To this point, there is something that Connie said that stuck with us. She said you can't chalk friends loyalty to the Chinese government to slick propaganda loan. Her friends are not brainwashed, and they're not willing to forgive every misdeed as long as the government makes the rich either. It's actually more troubling than that. She told us how she was on another one of these chat groups with girlfriend. And Hong, Kong came up. And people are saying you know this is old news now because it's been going on for months, so let's not talk about this anymore. Let's instead talk about W eleven double eleven as than the date. November eleventh, which is A. Major online shopping event in China like Black Friday. Yes, exactly like Black Friday. Yeah! Let's let's talk about black. Friday, or you know W love instead right? I get it. It's a whole lot easier to talk about shopping than say judicial independence and Hong Kong, but then Connie's friend added. because. What what is democracy? In the end? It's the powerless and the dispossessed fantasizing power and money being shared with them in a sense. It's very much like communism. And another person said yes, indeed Democratic or socialist. Each system has his own way of fooling people, but we're past the point of believing in any of them. Don't just draw the bread on paper. Give real bread. Winston Churchill actually said something similar that democracy quote is the worst form of government, except for all of those other forms that have been tried from time to time. In the end. Connie's friends weren't just cynical about the Chinese system. They were cynical about the US system to. So do they see? The Chinese system as an alternative to democracy. Yes, yes, because they don't believe in either of them and you know as a cynical and disgruntled ordinary citizen can do about it, so what they focus on really is you know tending to their their financial knees and just just. Keeping your head low. It's easier to just go shopping. But. Yasha says there are plenty of examples throughout history where people living under dictators and authoritarian regimes were willing to keep their heads low and play along. Until they weren't. We've seen in human history that dictatorships proven very unstable meaning. They often collapse a faith that experts say. Than China's rise after all who wants to see a country of one point, four billion people who are also important customers for thousands of businesses. Suddenly fail even two years economic growth, one year of economic stagnation still poses a big risk of political instability within dictatorships so as long as the regime is delivering for people. It helps to stabilize regime. But when the music stops playing, people get unhappy very quickly. Money aside. Yasha doesn't think China or anyone else for that. Matter is offering a true alternative to liberal democracy. I think it's impossible to copy to emulate which is to save it if you wanted to emulate and copy China, how would you even start going about doing that? You'd have to have as of Communist Party. That's been lying around sixty seventy years, but secretly moved into a weird state capitalist enterprise. Absolutely unclear what the next step would be, so it's not as easy as just exporting the model around the world. But when it comes to autocracy while. There are a lot of options for what model country might choose. What do worry about? Is that Russia and particularly China could over time become sponsors for any form of government where they value stability and loyalty of the suddenly values have L- like liberal democracy. That word make for much bigger headwinds for democracy run for world. Remember when I mentioned that Peace Corps came to China in Nineteen, ninety-three, a sign of improving relations. Well while we were working on this episode. The Peace Corps pulled all of its volunteers. Then the pandemic kit and in the US. There was the murder of George Floyd. Connie says her friends. Nationalistic tone has only gotten stronger through all this. She shared an online joke. That's been going around. It compares the pandemic to a school exam. China aces it in less than an hour, Japan and South Korea overwhelmed, but they finish it with China's help. Italy claims the test is too hard. Iran passes out. Then the examiner announces. It's an open book test The United States. Passes its. Test China, for help. Recently Connie's mom told her thank goodness her back in China People in America don't obey their government. You could have been infected there. The last time Connie sent a message to our friends on. We chat. Was To wish them a happy holiday during the Lunar New Year. Nobody replied. Things that go boom is produced by instinct media and distributed by PR ex. Our show is produced by Ruth Morris. Merrin lasy an me. Darren showman composes our music, and our engineer is Robin wise thanks to John Barth for his editorials port, and thanks to Connie. Who is working on a memoir about how it's getting more and more difficult to straddle the divide between the US and China Connie just so you know we reached out to Leo to see if you might be willing to make a little cameo here, but his agent very politely and very quickly turned US town. Last but definitely not least thanks to the foundations that make our work possible. The Carnegie Corporation of New York Macarthur Foundation and square and posher fund as well as insect supporters, including the Colom Foundation Prospect Hill Foundation and the bits family foundation. If you like the show, please leave us a nice review on your favorite APP. We love to hear from you. You can also visit us on social at instant media and have a look the rest of the work that we do. We'll see you in two weeks. I really WANNA. Learn more about eighties in America because everyone talks about the sixties and the seventies. America in the eighties was good. Oh, it was like a lot, a lot of big big hair and power ballads and Ex Ex.
Seventeen Point Agreement signed - May 23, 1951
"Thinking about adding popular music to your platform or APP to power new music features and filters concerned that it's too hard and expensive to license and integrate music meets song clip the first ever. Social Music. Api Song Clip is an easy and cost effective solution for bringing fully compliant popular music to your platform through an easy to integrate fully customizable. Api Visit Song Clip Dot Com to learn more today. Something good is a new show from the Seneca Women podcast network and iheartradio each day. We aspire to bring you the good news the silver lining the glass half full because there is good happening the world everywhere every day. We just need to look for and share it. Here's something good. It's a short daily show that offers positive stories helpful suggestions and shared experiences to inform and inspire you every day. Listen to hear something. Good on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to your favorite subscribe now. This Day in history class is a production of iheartradio. Hello everyone I'm eaves in welcome to this day in History Class. A podcast where we ripped out a page from the history book every Single Day. Today is may twenty third twenty twenty The Day was may twenty third. Nineteen fifty one. Tibet at the seventeen point agreement also known as the agreement of the Central People's government and the local government of Tibet on measures for the peaceful liberation of Tibet ends maintained that the agreement was signed under duress tiny sources claim that both sides supported the agreement as a legitimate contract. Tibet is bordered by Chinese provinces and autonomous regions in China though to has long been involved in struggles with China Tibetans have enjoyed considerable autonomy over the centuries in nineteen thirteen. Tibet proclaimed independence after decades of rejecting attempts by Britain and China to establish control in the region at that point Tibet functioned as a de facto independent state. But China still did not recognize Tibet as an independent entity continue to assert claims over areas in the region in nineteen forty nine Mazda. Dong proclaimed the founding of the People's Republic of China a one party state controlled by the Communist Party China. The Chinese began asserting their presence in Tibet calling for its liberation. The issue of Tibet part of China's desire for a unified powerful motherland and for freedom from imperialist influence. Most Tibetans were illiterate. And life expectancy was low in addition to most of the population being served in enslaved people owned by monasteries. Ennobles China. Use these facts to justify the need for the liberation and Reform Tibet in October of nineteen fifty. Chinese troops took control of eastern Tibet. The People's Liberation Army defeated the Tibetan army in battle at Chombo the Chinese government toll Tibetan authorities to send delegates to Beijing to negotiate the peaceful liberation of Tibet according to Tabet and sources the Tabet delegation was forced to sign the seventeen point agreement though the Chinese have rejected this notion. The document affirmed time sovereignty over Tibet. Effectively making Tibet a region of the People's Republic of China. The document included a preamble and seventeen points it claimed guaranteed Tibetan autonomy and to respect the Buddhist religion it also called for the establishment of Chinese civil and military headquarters at Lhasa in Tibet. And it called for the development of Tibetan agriculture LIVESTOCK RAISING INDUSTRY IN COMMERCE. There is controversy over the validity of the seventeen point agreement since some. Tibetans claim that the delegates did not have the authority to sign the document and by the Dalai Lama or Tibetan government to it. They also claim that they were not allowed to make any alterations though others have rejected. This claim in the following years resentment against Chinese rolette outbreaks of Tibetan resistance. China did not fully honor the agreement including its commitment to preserve Tibet's political and religious institutions in March of Nineteen fifty-nine in uprising began in Lhasa against Chinese rule and Pro-chinese Tibetan officials an alleged eighty-five thousand Tibetans died in the uprising though. This number is debated disputes over the legitimacy of the agreement and China's adherence to it continued to cause conflict in China in Tibet. Today Tibetans continue to protest mistreatment by the Chinese government. Intentions remain over Tibet political status. I'm Eve's Jeffcoat and hopefully you know a little more about history today than you did yesterday. And if you have any comments or suggestions you can send them to us via email at this day at iheartmedia dot com. You can also hit US. Up on social media we're at TD. I ate podcasts. Thanks again for listening to the show. And we'll see you tomorrow for more podcast from iheartradio. Visit the iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to your favorite shows thinking about adding popular music to your platform or APP to power new music features and filters concerned that it's too hard and expensive to license and integrate music meet Song Clip the first ever. Social Music. Api Song Clip is an easy and cost effective solution for bringing fully compliant popular music to your platform through an easy to integrate fully customizable. Api Visit Song Clip Dot Com to learn more today. This might surprise you but growing up in a funeral home isn't as fun as it sounds. Sure I get to see a lot of interesting things and the but we'll tell you one thing. I can't wait to quit this job. My name is grant and these. Are My funeral home stories? Iheartradio is number one for podcasts. But don't take our word for it. Listen To my funeral home. Stories on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Or WHEREVER YOU LISTEN TO. Podcasts see soon.
May 16 Notification issued - May 16, 1966
"Thinking about adding popular music to your platform or APP to power new music features and filters concerned that it's too hard and expensive to license and integrate music meets song clip the first ever. Social Music. Api Song Clip is an easy and cost effective solution for bringing fully compliant popular music to your platform through an easy to integrate fully customizable. Api Visit Song Clip Dot Com to learn more. Today guys bobby bones. I host the bobby bones show and I'm pretty much always sleepy because I wake up at three o'clock in the morning a couple of hours later I get all my friends together. We get into a room and we radio show. We our allies. We tell our stories. We try to find as much good in the world that we possibly can and we looked through the news of the day that you'll care about also your favorite country. Artists are always stopping by to hang out and share their lives and music too so wake up with a bunch of my friends on ninety eight point seven W M Z Q in Washington DC or wherever rotates you on the iheartradio APP. This Day in history class is a production of iheartradio. Hey y'all I'm eaves and welcome to this day in History Class A podcast that brings you new tidbit of history every day. Today is my sixteenth. Twenty twenty the day was may sixteenth. Nineteen sixty six. China's Cultural Revolution began when the Chinese Communist Party. Central Committee issued a document known as the May sixteenth notification. The Cultural Revolution was a decade long period of political and social upheaval launched by Mao Zedong. The origins of the Cultural Revolution are complex. But the ten years that ensued were characterized by extreme violence persecution and economic downturn mouth. Dong the chairman of the Communist Party of China proclaimed the founding of the People's Republic of China in Nineteen Forty. Nine Mouse said about instituting measures to reform society landlords. Were killed and land was redistributed to peasants. The opposition was violently suppressed in a mouse. Started the hundred flowers campaign inviting criticism of the Communist Party of China's policies but he soon backtracked on it in nineteen fifty eight. Mao launched the great leap forward which was a five year campaign a forced agricultural collectivisation and rural industrialization but implementation was poor and hasty an ideological purity was emphasized over expertise. The disruption of China's agriculture and natural disasters led to famine and massive economic and environmental destruction. The great leap forward was a failure and resulted in. Tens of millions of deaths by starvation execution torture forced labour and suicide. The government began to repeal the program by nineteen sixty but its failure created tension between party leaders. The campaign was denounced and Mao was blamed mouse. Position in government weekend as Mel attempted to regain his authority over the next few years there was a brief period of recovery and economic stability agricultural and industrial production increased but now his supporters were plotting a comeback. The exact origins of the cultural revolution are not clear but many historians point to the play hiree dismissed from office which was about a Ming Dynasty official. Who CRITICIZED THE EMPEROR? Malice convinced that the play supported the Defense Minister Peng to Hawaii whom Mao purged because he criticized the greatly Ford now. Supporters also denounced the play as an tackle mouth leadership mount. His supporters began advocating for a cultural revolution claiming that they aim to restore socialism and take down the ruling class. The Cultural Revolution also operated as an effort to eliminate people who have went up against now on May Sixteenth Nineteen Sixty six the central committee of the C. issued a document condemning. Cpc member Pong Son and his committee known as the five man group for saying that the high replay was an academic issue and not a political wine pong and other members of the group were purged from CPC and the five man group was replaced with the Cultural Revolution Group. The May sixteenth notification stated that the enemies of the Communist Party had infiltrated the Party and it outlined. The revolutions goal of pursuing class warfare. Though Mao didn't formally launched the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution until August. This Day is widely considered. It's beginning schools. Were closed intellectuals were sent to the countryside to do manual labor a cult of personality formed around Mao students foreign paramilitary groups called the red guards and targeted political enemies like elites in others deemed to be anti revolutionaries. They urged people to get rid of the four olds or old customs culture habits and ideas. They also destroyed historical sites and artifacts. They even carried out mass killings in cities as the red guards became more extreme. The People's Liberation Army was sent in to restore order. Mouth Death on September Ninth Nineteen seventy-six marked the end of the Cultural Revolution. Death tolls vary greatly from the hundreds of thousands to millions. The economy was damaged. The Cultural Revolution completely upended Chinese politics and society. I'm each code and hopefully you know a little more about history today than you did yesterday and if you have any comments or suggestions you can send them to us at this day and I heart media Dot Com. You can also hit us up on social media where at T. V. I hd podcast. They again for listening to the show in. We'll see you tomorrow for more podcasts. From iheartradio visit the iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to your favorite shows singing about adding popular music to your platform or APP to power new music features and filters concerned that it's too hard and expensive to license and Integrate Music Song Clip the first ever. Social Music. Api Song Clip is an easy and cost effective solution for bringing fully compliant popular music to your platform through an easy to integrate and fully customizable. Api Visit Song Clip Dot Com to learn more today class twenty twenty. We know things have been super weird lately. You were robbed of a graduation ceremony so we found some people to write you penton speeches John Legend. He said Hillary Clinton. She's into over twenty of your favorites from Dj College Coach K. Abby Wambach two ALSI. They're all here to give you the wisdom that we could all use right now tune into I heart. Radio New podcast. Commencement speeches are now on iheartradio APP. Or wherever you get your podcast.
21. Year of the Rat
"I want to take you back. To nine, hundred sixty. In. Beijing? And imagine that. It's a bright sunny day. And they're at the Beijing Botanical Garden on the campus of the university Beijing. You might have seen. Ab spectacled gray haired man? He would be wearing the iconic Mao jacket. That all men war at that time in China. That man. while. You probably would not recognize him. Would have been the former emperor of China. And he'd be tending dutifully to the garden. You might even wonder to yourself. The life that he must have had. And the stories he could told. Welcome. To My podcast. The rise and fall of the Ching Dynasty. Cup of solid gold. And this is the last episode of this podcast series. It is episode twenty one. Year of the rat. The last episode. I spoke about Emperor Guangxu and he died one day before. The empress dowager died. Before she died she declared the successor. Emperor. We also learned about revolutionary leader soon Yat. Sen. In his revolutionary alliance. The new emperor. Was Born in Beijing on February seventh nineteen, thousand six. His adoptive mother was shouting Gene Kwong Hole. And she was a concert. To the late Emperor Guangxu. The new emperor's name. His given name. Was Aishin Gelo. Later, he chose for himself the Western name of Henry. After Henry, the eighth of England. His official emperor name was one. But I will use the more recognizable name of. His given name. His father. Prince Choon. was named his regent. Ye. Ascended the throne. On December Second Nineteen O eight. He would have been two years old and ten months. Beyond the revolution that would soon force his abdication. There is really little to say about his reign. I will talk more about him and his fascinating life however later in this episode. So I have reached the final drama. Of the Ching Dynasty. That would put it out of its misery once and for all. Only to be remembered. In the history books. Before we get started into this final act. I need to introduce one more person into this history. He played a large role in what was coming. His name. You One. Sure why? I referred to him in a previous episode. Without naming him. He was involved with the Cudi ta orchestrated by the Empress Dowager. In. The late eighteen, Ninety S. To Stop the Emperor Guangxu from proceeding with his one hundred days of reform. In one, thousand, nine, hundred eleven. A seemingly benign issue. Over the control and ownership of railroads in central China. Lit The torch there would end the Ching Dynasty and imperial. China. Ironically. The Revolution. That finally ended the dynasty. was. Not. Started by either soon, yachts or you on sure kyw. It was spontaneous. The catalyst was the MANCHUS. Decision. To Nationalize to privately owned railways in central. China. The manchus thought the sale. Was a clever way for it to raise money to pay for the large reparations bill caused from the boxer rebellion and other expenses. The Ching government desperately need the money. The. Decision to nationalize however. Linda outrage by Chinese citizens. And national protests. The national outrage led to the creation of the railroad protection. Movement. which was at first. A political movement. The objection to the plan to nationalize the railroads centered on two issues. One. Many Chinese. Had invested a lot of money in the railways and their investments would be in jeopardy. If the railways were nationalized. And two. It was widely believed the purchasers of the railways would ultimately be. Foreign banks. And investors. The manchus badly mishandled the entire affair. In one of the Railroad Protection Movement protest. The Chin government overreacted and sent its military. That only worsened the already deteriorating reputation of the Manchus and the overall situation. The manchus eventually backed down from the Railroad Nationalist Nationalization Plan? But by then the circumstances were out of control. Fearing even more protests and riots the Manchus sent more troops. But the new additional troops that were sent were part of the recently created. Modern, army. They were created out of the reforms that had been made. In the early nineteen hundreds. Many of these men had been indoctrinated in the Republican ideals that the revolutionary. Alliance and its leaders had preached and spread through China. And Then it happened. On October Ninth Nineteen Eleven. A bomb accidentally exploded in a building that at that time. Had some of the soldiers of the modern art quartered. The Wu Chang. Incident. Now. Part of Wuhan Hubby province China. started. The Shanghai Revolution. Investigation into the cause of the bomb explosion uncovered a plot by these reform minded soldiers to overthrow the dynasty. The regimen involved in this plot quickly mutinied. In Chung. And quickly seized control of the entire Hubby province. These mutineers made your you on. Its leader and the new premier of China. However. Not, all of China's provinces joned this effort. Those provinces instead declared their allegiance to Dr Soon Sin. By then all of China was in chaos. It is said the Shanghai revolution generally occurred with minimal violence. Actually. That is not completely true. There were isolated areas of intense violence and human casualties. But it is true. The violence was not widespread. Those that declared Dr. Soon Sin as China's provisional leader Form their government in Nanking or Nanking. So in its earliest days, Chinese, revolutionaries were split between a group led by soon yat-sen and calling themselves the Chinese National People's Party or KMT. Wilmington. And those that want it up, hold the nascent Republican parliamentary structure that was still centered in Peking. By the end of nineteen eleven, nationals, revolutionaries were beginning to assemble a new government. They were led by Dr Soon yachtsmen. They were determined to form a Chinese republic. But they lacked the muscle and means to remove the MANCHUS REM power. For that muscle. Soon. yat-sen would have to reach out. And form an agreement with the other with the other revolutionary leader. You're one shirt guy who at that time was the powerful leader of the military forces. And an agreement was reached. An in exchange for military help to force the Manchus from power. Dr Soon Yeltsin conceded power to you're on. Your on shook I became the new republic's president. Soon. Thereafter, he turned on the MANCHUS. And the dynasty was lost. On February. Twelfth Nineteen twelve, the mandate of Heaven was withdrawn. And the Young Ching. Emperor. Abdicated. By. March. It. was official. You're unsure KYW was republic's first president. Now nineteen twelve in the Chinese calendar. Was the year of the rat. There are many Cheney's that believe the year. The rat is an unlucky year and portends bad things. The rat according to the Chinese lunar calendar is the first Zodiac. Animal. And there are twelve of them. And it signifies a new beginning. I am not going to offer an opinion as to what happened to the chain dynasty. I trust anyone listening to my podcast. Can discern in decide for themselves. What happened? My hope and goal is that I have done a decent job telling the Ching Dynasty Story. I do want to say three things here. Number One. The. End of the Ching Dynasty ended over two thousand years of imperial rule in China. Number to. The revolution or the end of the Dynasty Can Be, considered more momentous than the French or the Russian or the American Revolution's. Number three. Seldom do things happen in a vacuum? In size ing up the downfall of the dynasty and putting it into perspective. About that same time in history other longtime empires run the verge of collapse to. Think about what was happening with the other imperial empires, the austro-hungarian or Habsburg Empire. Or take the imperial czar or Romanoff Empire in. Russia. And think about the Ottoman Empire. But. I am not quite done with the Manchu story. Henry please life story is one that should be told. It has been alleged that his adopted mother. I mentioned her before she l. dinging Wong whole was bribed. By you're unsure Chi to sign the abdication papers on behalf of the young emperor. It has been further alleged. She received seventeen hundred pounds of silver or its equivalent to sign the papers. In her defense however. It has also been alleged. She did all of this under the threat of beheading. What we do know of course is at the abdicated at the age of six. The Republic of China that pui stay and live in the Forbidden City. Until he was eighteen years of age. She even allowed him an annual allowance. Any could keep his title. For a brief period. Twelve days in nineteen seventeen he was restored again is the monarch. China's road to republic was a bumpy one. In nineteen. Twenty Four. Also, the year of the rat He was forced to permanently leave the Forbidden City. He exiled in teen in China. In his autobiography pui recalls that he was eating an apple and ninety M on November, Fifth Nineteen Twenty four when Republic troops arrived at the palace. He was given three hours to vacate the. Palace. Later, that afternoon, he was presented with a declaration for him to sign. The Declaration was that his. Official. Emperor name Schwenn toll was forever abolished. He then left the palace for good. In a fleet of limousines. Many years later in the nineteen thirties during the Japanese occupation of Manchuria. The Japanese installed him as the puppet emperor of Manchuria. It was clearly. Merely a publicity stunt by Japan. who he had no real power. But he finally an naively fulfilled Israel. As if he were the real emperor. After World War Two and the Japanese collapse. He was arrested by the Russians as a war criminal. They held him for nearly five years. His crime. Helping the Japanese. China at that time also reviled him and considered him to be a traitor and a war criminal. Once the communist Chinese one, their civil war against the Republican led. Woman Tongue. was returned to China in nineteen fifty. He was sent to a Labor camp near Shenyang China. There, he spent the next nine years pursuing re education. And learning gardening. Finally. He was released and allowed to work for a salary as a gardener at the University of Beijing Botanical Garden. Obviously he and the Chinese government. Had made peace with each other. On December Fourth Nineteen fifty-nine. People's Republic of China formerly gave him a special pardon. And he was made a citizen. On October Seventeenth Nineteen, sixty, seven, he died. He was sixty one. His ashes were interred in the same. Tomb as Guangxu and three other Ching emperors. Now. I don't know about you. But he comes off. As. One of the most tragic figures in history. He was crowned and deposed as an emperor three times. and. Then only to die as an average person would. One. Of the acts he did. To make peace with the People's Republic of China, he returned the official seals that had been handed down to every emperor since she and long. Let me say one more thing about this year of the rat. The podcast you're listening to. And this episode. We're produced and published during the year the rat. Twenty twenty. A year, the world is dealing with the virus pandemic. You draw your own conclusions what that might portend. That's IT folks. Please, continue to listen to my new podcast series season two that will begin immediately after this episode. I want to take out this podcast series episode and season with the Actual Ching Dynasty. Anthem? Cup of solid gold. And it is courtesy. Of National Anthems Dot. Info. It is only fifty seconds long. With that. I wish you all a fondue. As always. It has been my pleasure.