2 Episode results for "Paula Dean"
Dr. Izabella Teixeira, Co-Chair of UN Environment Programme International Resource Panel
"Welcome to Common home conversations Beyond un75 a series by the planetary podcast in common home conversations. You will hear from leading Global experts on how the proposal of recognizing the existence of an intangible Global common Without Borders can change our relationship with our planet the common home of humanity has proposed an ambitious New Globe pack for the environment the adverse effects of climate change span across borders and Beyond territories recognizing the Earth system as a common Heritage of humankind is the first step in restoring a stable climate a visible manifestation of a well-functioning or a system this proposals cascading effects would be systemic and tremendously impact international relations and economics opening the doors to restoring a well-functioning earth system, and home conversations is the place to discuss a new social contract between Society wage. Economy and the Earth system now here is your host founder and CEO of the planetary press Kimberly White. Hello and welcome to comment home conversations today. We are joined by doctor Isabella to Shara co-chair of the United Nations environment programs International resource panel and bumper Minister for the environment of Brazil. Thank you for joining us today, Isabella. Thank you for inviting me to join you my pleasure. So you have dedicated your life to protecting nature. What was the driving force for this passion? So how question because I have been working the last thirty-five years of environmental issues not only pursue but also at the global level I'm a biologist. Okay, and I thought that how fascinating the life is the diversity of life is I was born less less Century for catering sixties and it was momentum the world that took two years and ages and out nine inches that we preparing how you live in this Century the new century. So environmental issues were emerging strategic Global issues. And I was really fascinated to have the opportunity to join not only to move forward consider the developing issues in my country and how can bring development together with environmental preservation and conservation. But more also how it can happen plenty of approach consider the diversity of societies and those in my country also and also the inequalities of social equality I used to big things together since my early evenings, so I think that environmental agenda of sustainability channel that it was doing my career that the decisions our marriage and also page you're able to join the global multilateral agreements and also the global Summits, etc. Etc. But always trying to manage better than actual realities in 2 0 on the how we can bring people together. So for me, it's science beyond the politics means that we can be together and this fascinates me. I love the diversity dead. Of the planet not only the biological ones. Okay, and this the possibilities to discover to ReDiscover the world and to be closer to other. This is something that still today makes sense for me to move forward. So it's how how to be part of the world in a way that you can contribute our best to a better quality of life and they knew on the to improve the relationship between humankind and the nature as a biologist make sense for me. Absolutely sick and you're from one of the most biodiverse places on the planet. So I imagine that definitely had an influence on your career decisions to protect nature. Yes, fantastic because I thought working and 9 day before after my graduation. Also, I was food dedicated to scientific research and I was provoked to join dead. Environmentalism Brazil that was charged to create the new institutional Arrangements situation governments in Brazil to manage environmental issues. Not the natural resource officers want no biology as in traditional wedding that used to be approved and it was a big Challenge and this man changed my life. His name is Paula Dean Martin's famous song. Also Bastion used around the world. And also I was absolutely introduced to this political world the environmental politics indeed how the multilateral institutions will bring us together. The big channels that we will face and has two faces today considering climate change the global issue like my diverse reservation. And also how country like Brazil is a hybrid of assets not only in Amazonia, but Amazon forest, but also truck profiles like Atlanta virus and also did I vessel by Anonymous how we can bring this together? How a dog? You can use his in a better way to promote the development that you need. Well, you've certainly had a very impressive career and I know that you have achieved an incredible 84% reduction in a station of the Amazon the lowest historical deforestation rate. It has been called the largest-ever global contribution for emissions reduction. Can you tell me more about this? Yeah what I want to change the numbers today and I I look back to the past. Just remember my professional career and indeed when being Brazil were fully engaged to a different station Amazon. Okay, and do we establish the first national program to go against the first station and do learn a lot with this crisis and I was off of the enforce environmental enforcement team in the Brazilian institution that you called, environmental pollution, and I was part of this staff wage. That went into them as wanted to tackle the first station and it was very nice because it was not only the environmental stack students. But also the science you can came to get us and the so you bring together different station and also fires the needs to develop the scientific knowledge. Maybe they need to have an alliance and and I was charged the first number and of understanding between Brazil United States should learn more how can manage the type of forest fires and did how we can move on considered as a gym pass along my career. I have the opportunity to manage important International programs like the National Environmental program together. The first one was rolled back and also the famous PPG 7. So when I was Minister you have this experience to Brazil, you know that Brazil we have been proven our knowledge in the last twenty years exactly how to manage better the forcing of the invite. For some of the individual not really no Masonic and unfortunately, the first session was Raina is around 95% Basically legality. This is a environmental crime have a powerful legal framework in Brazil to tackle these problems and this is Cindy do have the full capacity scientist go on but also institutional wants to bring this month is probably sufficient together and to go against the first station. They go against environmental crime and those you entertained with my 2010 did they launch all of us another try and change policy that that support us to address better outcomes. So what I'd like to highlight is that we have I have a huge opportunity to connect the novelty of public policy life about various conservation the most important protect areas program in the world around six millions of hectares underbite of this reservation in protection in Amazon Vision together, this is Bob. Of a legacy and also we promote the second or third phase and new address better with civil society new inovative Governors model situate that you can bring 6 again. So it's not only go against a daily legalities. We use this out comes to promote in other people's quality of climate change invited this reservation and I also tried various Solutions consider Global sustainability back when the co-host few plus. Conference 2012 and also individual developing Novelties, but because like genetics or success and ongoing protocol, which doesn't make sense just bring things together. We cannot have enough that amount of approach to address Global issues. We need to understand how to connect in and how to bring in your narrative to develop new narrative economic and social life that makes sense regarding medical situation. So I'm very honored to host not only to work hard and I did but also to host the letters from other partners that were fully engaged to a club Now listen the last thirty-five years of environmental history in this, you know, how we did we learn exercise known as a public situation. We learn as environmental governmental cooperation how we did you can join how can be together to type of data galaxies environmental scientist and mention the fact that also to manage successful agenda to bring things together to make sense for developing the measuring economies like this. Now, we often talk about the importance of stopping deforestation and consider being Amazon, but we seldom talked about the Amazonian Thursday in the region, which is around 25 million people. I did not know that a recent study has shown that indigenous people are critical to conserving biodiversity. However, there are often left off the key multilateral discussions on environmental governance. How do we solve this social environmental issue and include indigenous leaders at the table to discuss how best to conserve these highly bio-diverse areas dead. This is excellent question was who has a diverse population. Okay, any additions people part of this and also in Jesus people have rights. Okay, and this rights of Bill recognized our constitution. Okay. So this is a known issue my opinion. Okay why it's animation we need to to go and show to practice what the Federal Constitution we need to recognize the rights. So when you have people that go against this this is doesn't make sense to go against the law. It's the same around the room when you go into the home countries and the check and business people don't need. You cannot deny their rights. Okay, what you need to descend how to bring this guy's into the political rules into the to sit at the tables in the round table to discuss their right and that perspective but they are not the only one to have the other perspective that you need to bring together and to conciliate. It's a really it's a transformative process to know off. To learn how to listen people how indeed you can use the knowledgement in their perspective together with us and we can together try to find new ways to promote divorce along the road with a closest approach start trying to address in formalities and inequalities. It's so easy to address better political rights, okay to be together and to discuss our bases in our knowledge mean our ambition in our values. So this diverse it's our fault. It's our power is our NASA too, but with fraudulent we don't know sometimes how to manage these in a how you can listen to these people not only to come on. This is a public hearing know how we can build new process basic on a diversity of your stakeholders and indeed in the diversity of management and Technology allows of the visit of political assets. And this is something that countries like Brazil. For example, we had some players home. Google don't have this picture understand this. So my feeling is that we need more pragmatic role in fragmented way in a political way. We need to separate better water. They'd known issues with. Okay. And what what I did the new issues that they could quit issue that must be addressed in the concrete ways that you can move forward absolutely and speaking of solutions. One of the things that has been brought up in recent years is a new Global pact for the environment. Do you think that the environment and sustainability issue can be the needed common ground for building a new economy in more than a society and establishing a better legal framework for the environment? Yes. This is something also in my opinion so fascinating because when I bought my own kinds supposed to be confident that we were able to manage everything you have disrupted process not only based on the cold feet price in the home. And environmental crisis in this coffee devices a health and environmental crisis. Okay, but also considered a new political Global Water and what's happened today and see how we can share new values considering that you have one plant. I don't know a planet be so we need to understand that when we discuss sustainability. My opinions just going to be this is the the only issue today that brings all the all the countries together. They're not they're not traded in. The economy's Invasion this long piece. For example have two different problems around the world. It's not migration. They agreed so sustainability is an issue that we ended the Nations together this decides to get and indeed after the coffee crisis ordering the quoted price. We are learning how we need to improve our relations between humankind. Eligia. So when we say that if you understand business or if you did understand the Strategic role that science used to play but will placed strategically mature gay how we can bring the scientist knowledge together with our public understanding our combined knowledge. And and you know, how we did can manifest it means that the probably dead human side is learning today that you need to know more about the connections and how things are connect around the world how nature connect things in a house also sides will be connected not on based on physical assets, but also considering the challenges of the economy of innovation that would be us off and innovative ways the nexius so if vitamins so that's why I think that Global pack it's for the environments a new way to show not only the song. Manage that to have consider Environmental Protection the global environment protection, but it's a new way to show to share the connection among different societies and different people. It's how we can share go has possibilities with different people. Okay result going against old Concepts like National sovereignty National Society but solved the duration of Stockholm declaration in ninety seventy-two. Okay. So when we have some players that try to go back to the parents attempt to highlight think that was so good around fifty years ago. Come on. We are not discussing. This will actually discuss indeed how we can bring Global Society. We are a global Society. Okay, and we have different society that is coming together with different channels of different perspectives. But what I'm saying is that you can diversity of societies of diverse of economic realities diversity of environmental Club. We only have one planet. Okay, and you need to understand how things connect or what what how can share responsibilities what will be the new expression of global citizenship. That's why Global fact for me to debate a Global Tech for the environment makes sense. You need to debate we need to understand what the new channels you need to understand. What are the new responsibility not to go against one another one, but you cannot forget that sell ability triggers together that is so important to liberate the multilateral system to understand better how International cooperation will move forward forcing the next year's. It's not a movie wrong one is help you move forward. What is new it did how we can have private sector as a car with a forcible actual player not to accept that will wait for the government decision. The society is not menaces anymore. So the the role of media the role of communication job. Also, I want to view the responsibility to make sense at the global level. So we are connect not only considering the nature nature is absolutely key for disconnection because we the planet disconnect between environmental service everything but we need to understand, you know, a new channel. The global challenge that we have today is a new world that's coming the role of Technology the role of scientific knowledge in the role of the Federal partnership the role of the new generation indeed how it can make sense to go into new challenges or to go a new way to have nature and environment preserved and the use this better for quality of life in of Lifestyles. And also well-being. They make some really great Point Isabella there really is no Planet B, and we're definitely not going to Mars anytime soon. So it really is imperative that we take better care of our planet. There is a lot of concern about the destruction of the Amazon yet. There are no incentives in place to place. Serve or restore this vital resource or others. You were one of the first ambassadors of the common home of humanity how would legal recognition and protection of the earth system as proposed help preserve this page and other critical aspects of our climate Okay, I think that true of recommendations the first one when you go into the global pact and go into the this environmental systems that is so important for the planet. We need to understand the national reality. So it's very important for survival that if you go to conservation do to reverse operation agenda gave that we need to descend. What are the challenges we did What's happen? Unfortunately, we have this war of narratives. And as I mentioned you even you don't know about to change five million people that live there and this is a Brazilian to need to understand the Amazon reality. This means that you need to reset the Amazon channels facility Amazon base and and indeed home. Can bring people to get this is the first recommendation. My second recommendation is that okay used to have this Earth system that you know and indeed the how we can use better. The scientists knowledge is such a way that you can have a robust input to combine this knowledgement with the legal requirements of the little understanding about the Globe award and how long can we need to move on preserving the Earth Systems? So what I would say is that when you bring legal framework or legal acknowledgement, we need to understand what scientists say and also what are the gaps on knowledgement? And also what are the trade-offs that you have today? We need to understand the diversity of political situation and how we did we can arrange people together and how can bring discovered understanding and build common interests based on common interests and built be able to build conversions? So in each understand how you can bring International cooperation the national Knowledge Management allows International solidarity to support Solutions and also to understand how we preserve Amazon how we did Amazon app reservation what he did it means considered a diversification that to have them. This is really lucrative because Amazon is part of the seasons and they need to press to obtain their system. So when you go into this reality and they'd go in to try to understand the as I mentioned before the war of nerves nerves and and try to move Beyond this okay and both go into the local politics and understand how we can bring discuss internationally. What is the New Jersey National Corporation gender that we must be dissolved to support his situation like Amazon in Brazil. This will indeed make a good initiative contribution to churches. Change the picture that you have today. So legal recognition and protection must induce be used to address the solution that we need and also to support these thoughts make the solution permanent. Okay to make the solution resilient and not only to go into the fights on to go to bring the guilty as International trial. I agree with this but when we managed Justice or environmental justice social justice my feelings that you need to use this tracks in an offensive way is such a way that you can indeed solve the problems in a permanent way. We need to go against poverty. We need to go against social equality, but you need to recognize that Jesus people, right? We need system that they lived they liked lives in another tip way. They liked it wants to have business in Amazonia. We need to develop new business models because this is not based on the tradition birth. Raise and also the international market must host these and pay for this. So what I'm saying is that we need to use this proposed to have legal protections for our systems at, home of humanity is highlighting important voice of international level, but also to recognize the challenge that you have for example in Congo Basin. I was Indonesia in Macomb to try spacing like Indonesia, and also we need to understand how restoration for reservation can play an important role also to add value for environmental preservation in Forest reservation. It's not the only one side of the coin you have all of your signs of the client and you need to understand how we did this initiative or, home of how long it will help us dial not whether to preserve the Klitschko aspect of our climate, etc. Etc. But also will help us to understand how we can act in a New Direction in Iraq. Battery in the close of way, bring people together. They understand the national reality. They are not the same as around the world. Even if you go in developing countries when you discuss what's a pancake house if you want to discuss go south the reality Ninjas full different where they have a challenge to have him pursue what we have in South Africa. Okay, but we are together in basic group technique. I'm a change. So this is fascinating also have a bricks club and how did you trade Club? They have different realities and did what how can bring people together if able to understand the common interests if you're able to find a way to bring people together based on common readers and how we can have a new tracks for conversions issues and indeed how we can this based off solution. So if you understand the channel that you have in your numbers on this is the challenge that that's why I mentioned here can they are the issues with Amazon and if you understand the environmental Club You need to fight against tackle and do need to go there. This is enforcement environment in force on this is Law and enforcement. This is different where I'm talking here while I discuss here. How can use law indeed to promote a new way to bring people together in to share responsibility and to protect their system. This is a debate. Okay, so we have no issues on site to have the new life on other sides and in my feeling coming home of humanity. He's trying consider The Umbrellas a new Global pack for the environment to try to bring these issues in another tip way but these agendas different ones. Another thing is such a way that it can if you have a common understanding about this probably you have a new way to bring people together and it makes sense in the future that you can have the Protection Systems will share responsibility better with a newer police chief understands of the global Society. It's not only the government or public sector in the state. It's about global Society understanding consider our challenge. Is indeed how can bring different nations together and this one is fascinating because probably this a new way to promote politics around the world and did and how we can sort of understand that the solution the solution will not come from one institution. The solution will come from default of different people of different Society or different institutions that need to have a common understanding about our future the challenge to preserve the Earth their season, but the challenge to be together considered sustainable development for humankind. Thanks again for joining us Isabella. Do you have any final thoughts for our audience? Thank you very much for this opportunity to dialogue and for this interview. I think that this is important, possibly be the ambassador is a provocative test. Okay, not only for myself but people around the world. We need to provoke people to go out of the comfort zone. Okay and based on fear and in our Assets in our abilities as suspicious and not based on fear and risks and to manage on comfort zone. Come on. We need to be out of the box. I hoped that the new box can be a green one. All right, and there you have it not only are we connected through nature but also through the challenges that we face as a global Society using sustainable as the issue that brings us together. We can create a new way forward and inclusive Way Forward built on a common understanding of the shared connection between humankind nature and the Earth system. The Proposal from the common home of humanity provides a new way to bring Society together to share responsibility protecting the Earth system that is all for today and thank you for joining us for this episode of Cox and home conversations Beyond you and 75 Please Subscribe share and be sure to tune in next Wednesday to continue the conversation with our special guest Palomar College founder and president of the common home of humor and visit us at ww.w the planetary, press, four more episodes and the latest news and sustainability climate change and the environment.
S6 E6 | Epithet: Racist
"You're listening to the podcast visit. WWW DOT past detroit dot com for information. I'm Calvin and you're listening to leading questions with Calvin more. This shows experiment incivility gathering people who disagree to sit down face to face and having them discuss their disagreements. Do we ever arrive at consensus. Sometimes what's most important is we've got the conversation started. Well Hey everybody thinks so much for tuning into another episode of leading question Calvin Moore. I'm your host Calvin Moore and per usual I'm here with my co host develops and Ken Straight. What's up forgot his name? But no no no no I. I went out of order so it threw off. Aw No but we don't usually sit next each. This is a little ed close as one of our own studio so he gets to sit in. Kent just sit over here right. Well he was good. This was my spot I what else. That's my shoulder the guber yeah. It's a great distance away from the from the window Okay so yeah. Let's let's catch a well Kenton. I got to catch CIA guys a matter of fact. Yeah last episode was called catching up with Calvin great okay Guys do like one of those things where yes quite gave it a title. I mean it's just it doesn't show those. NPR things we sit across each other for. Talk to take. No one's GONNA listen to you Bruce Bruce Wayne and Vicki Vale in in the hassle. I've never used this in this room but So I understand that you were gone last week on. You're you're not on your honeymoon but Anniversary for university we celebrate. This was our fourteenth anniversary. made it. We made it to fourteen. I hear four twelve years is a sweet. Oh what do you what do you like. It's all downhill after twelve. No no no like a survival like oh twelve years generally okay so we move beyond the seven year itch. He's he's become seven year itch now. You're like years still don't know where to go. What is fourteen traditional Give Gift Fourteenth Vinyl Siding Vinyl Siding. I got that for her. Like for three years has gone. You blew it. I did I did. That was my fault I obviously we had our fortieth. DFM and the gift for that has teeth teeth. Well traditional fourteen university gift is ivory. Oh uh-huh today my friend not the modern anniversary gift jewelry. Okay so anyway Detroit City we had A. That's that's what we did it instead. Landing on the first page of Google so I didn't do any further research on you. Put that out there. You get the. That's fine all right but either way so every and I rear gold soon to traverse city. We did okay would you did we. We did have that. We went up the so. I don't know best part was the not Leland. All old mission peninsula. The best part look on Saturday we went up there just drove drove drove Amazing of us of of the bay him back down to winter. We never gonNA wineries before we discovered you Oh Gosh Judah blue no So there's a there's a north north something or other. I don't know what it was. I can't remember what it was. It was amazing. Mari vineyards as well. This one was on top of the hill in there was road. That goes down in the Lakers. Right there is the most amazing view. none doing circles anyway gun so it was thirty degrees everyone's bailing The wife and I are sitting out there bundled up the snow coming on during your wind. It was amazing. Loved every second of it great memories and to it to answer your question a couple of weeks ago you thought it was going for two days. I was gone for five. I know we found out like still down there. Okay and Ken. What's the last week I know if you days ago Friday? Something changed since then. But I'll tell you what I'm doing is I'm sitting here pulling the raisins out of an OATMEAL. The cookie around the raise US care raisins OATMEAL. Oh Karen era. They're not all their leftover from from the potato salad. Lame great are reasons or pure trash. No raise right the reasons okay all right well as for me. Solid solid week finished a training at my job gotTA finish last week. So's my first week doing doing the actual job and lots of research but had our dinner event today which is nice it was Taco Day had plenty of food leftovers Sunday. So my My coworkers workers tomorrow are going to enjoy the amount of tacos that I bring into the office so other than that nothing that was doing a different direction so well well the other part that hits they will also enjoy but this week we are starting a three week series called Epithet and we will be Breaking it up into three parts so this week we're GONNA be talking about the epithet racist and the next week we're going to be looking at Homophobic and then the third final week we will be looking at A dual epithet of sexist and misogynist inbetween racism homophobia and sexism. Sexism this Thanksgiving series because that is what happens at dinner table so so our guess because we have so many. I'M NOT GONNA go over BIOS. I'll post on the website but nobody on the show. Today's assed is a stranger to the show everybody's been on the show before but I we're going to welcome back Mr Rick Goldberg. Rick Welcome back. It's always find to be here then. Of course we have Miss Jennifer Kinney welcome back Jennifer Day. Jen Jenny Jenny Jenny. Or Jennifer Kinney and then next to her is my lovely wife Jennifer more. What's up and then I'll call you? Okay so Jennifer Kinney I'm GonNa call you Jennifer Okay and my wife Login calling your wife go I will call call you Betty Betty then also The man who are existence to God the Lord the Lord. They save where we don't open up that episode on racing to go now the guy. Yeah The guy who owns the studio and also host of the show David Phillips Welcome Back David. Good dead yet. I I felt like I kind of had this. Yeah Yeah and let's appear so so Fun Story introduce last person. We'll introduce Is Matthew Schmidt is calling on this line. What's up Matt? Hey everybody areas so so dave so. I posted the graphic on my facebook about this series. The racist graphic yeah and jazz. It's named the filename being told hit. Click here to download the racist graphics. Right yeah sorry today it was flack. FACEBOOK covers it up. This might be an offensive image but I posted that image asking if anybody had any thoughts on the questions that posting and or if they want to appear on the show and Dave just commented so do you actually actually leaned on the keyboard on the uh-huh actually finally fell asleep. Face first onto the thing. That has calvin invited me on God but so so Thanks For for everyone being here. Let's dive right in question so so obviously you all volunteer to be here one way or another but on a scale of zero to five how comfortable are you talking about race and racism and does that change based on social media versus face to face interactions so zero to five zero being like linked on the podcast. So it's not GonNa be zero for anybody and why but How would you rate yourself and Matt will go with you first on this okay? Yeah so thanks for having Me Back Kelvin so interestingly I'm actually more comfortable Doing his face to face. Now I'd say I'm a four or five and I think that social media has become I I really don't I don't like getting into it on social media right now I think it just becomes a I find myself getting sucked into a vortex and and it's like you know the the back and forth debate I'm social media where are truly just throwing words at each other Without any real humidity action. I think when you're talking about race and racism it's It is such A. There's nothing about it like it's always like A. There's a there's a it's a bodily thing right like it's we're talking about humans and And so just just throwing around and I mean not not not put it out. I did that a lot Getting into all kinds of debates with people on social media having to decide to Come to the end of our facebook. Friendship Sometimes And I just prefer to do it face to face. So we do at the table centers all the time which is an organization that Nonprofit I I started with my friend Marvin and we do it all the time face to face it. Just it just makes more sense to me now And I prefer that way and you know pretty comfortable with the rim you Mike the accident was gonNA throw it out there. I mean I'll I'll guide. I mean the whole reason. Why had this show started is because you know I'd I'd put myself up at like four or five You know we did that episode with it and the D.. Where you knows right when all the real major chaos awesome mayhem was happening in the country and well in recent history and And I and I reached out to you and a couple of other people do like I. I WanNa do a show about what it's like to we black in America bothered. I cannot be the voice for that like we can give the platform and get it out there but no complete come do And that's how this started and Kinda in our to you guys are like fuck dues like Black Church. I've heard it before those largely with that. The episode we were in we were in this studio for four and a half hours very good episodes. Say it was. Yeah there was. There was a lot that we that we got through that time. I'm kind of in the same vein I hate getting in discussions online. I truly do and and it's not because it's typically because of other people I don't know or they don't know me That loved to jump in and make assumptions and throw assumptions around. And it's just it's not worth it it literally literally it it. I've gotten to the point where it is not worth it to engage online In those discussions just because it's it I might as well just go. Bang my head into a door other points where you like. You've it's not a diatribe me like nope delete because it's murless. Yeah Jen Jennifer yes. Yes so Jennifer here. I would say I'm at about an eight but in part that's because I do antiracism work on a daily basis and I host a podcast cast and so I'm constantly talking about it with people in typically as a white woman speaking mostly with people of color so I would say that can be some of the most stressful conversation for people. Because you just don't know where people stand in things in it doesn't feel safe The online thing it resonates a lot. I have gotten into the practice because I'm online every single day on instagram on facebook and stuff. I have a process now where I invite people into into private conversation in then I start off with some basic things. Check out this podcast and no. It's not mine. Typically that I that I recommend but I'll say a checkout seeing white seen on radio series and then start there and then come back to me and let's talk and then I know how serious people are. How invested did they are about you? Know really digging in but obviously like face to face conversation would certainly be ideal but we don't live in a world where we always always get that opportunity so I'm trying to figure out. How can we use social media in a way that honors People's humanity but it speaks truth in relentless fashion regarding social media and Rushing gotta go to anyone because I think you've all mentioned it now at this point Do you find what what is a two foot. Wall becomes a ten foot wall because people have an inability to really articulate their points. Well in the written word I know to me it seems like there is a i. Don't know if it's a generational thing but there's almost a an a a an inability to articulate For that's right breath. Well let's say is that. I think that people have a hard time. The written word sometimes getting crushed. Their point comes off far different than what they may be. Trying is that obstacle. You often find or do you think people are no they mean exactly is I think it's challenging and I think there are lot of mine you know a lot of problems problems and potentials because we are very reactive. It's an incredibly emotional experience because if you're coming at it as is a person of color talking about racism you're talking about firsthand things that are real to you if you're coming at it from a white person who is an ally or co conspirator who has has a love for relationships with people your coming at it as well from an emotional place. Sometimes so people have to be able to keep certain aspects packs of maybe trauma in check and that's really hard and there are a lot of very triggering conversations that happen so it really requires a lot of patience. It's I would. Yeah I would say though that there is a in like something about being at behind a screen that I do. Do you think emboldens people that would never say certain things to maybe. Your face is absolutely and even even the trolls. There's some people who are just completely trolls. So I I think that. That's a great point Jennifer but I do think there are some people that that that is as fallen. She's I mean there's a there's a bad side of that. We know the Internet trolls. But then there are people who when yeah you. You were the shrinking violet. Someone is all up in your face but you can be brave behind the screen or you can speak truth to garlic. I would never say anything at work because I don't WanNA get in trouble. I don't WanNa make waves but online. I'm going to be in your face about this dude. You're being racist or dude you're being you're being on the phobic dude. You're being you know whatever I can give weight to that however I think the other side to that is that it is hard for people sometimes is to again. Remember the humanity side and also even I'm I would say even Interpret tone right because sometimes tone own is often misunderstood I think in Social Media and tax form that a lot of people are not good at giving nuance wants to tone in the written word I would say also. That's that's the third thing that I think's missing in that is that it's flat taxed and you assign tone to it from your own own perspective. That isn't necessarily their. He's talking about and yet somehow somehow people even though you you can't detect tone. Well you can't do a degree but even though you can't detect home there's still a certain measure of tone policing happens because he was signed toned. And because you assign that tone and you don't like the time you've assigned May Not even be the is probably not the tone but you the site and then you police it absolutely. That's that's why I avoid social media completely facebook what about these conversations. Yeah how come comfortable as you guys know. I'm never on facebook. And I'm not trying to avoid confrontational discussions. Wait a second. What that's not right uh-huh that's not true at all the wrong person waiting for the punchline on this us around personality let me switch? Yeah I'm a five or a six or seven on both the face to face and social media I will discuss discuss with anybody anytime and and you know what I do. I do appreciate There's been I've been posting relentlessly the Jeffrey Epstein means we talked about last week on the show and has been. I've even posted memes about posting. Those means that's funny to you. Know you were getting some pushback and you told me in private you know. Oh some things that have happened that you're dealing with the public now. I'm not going to. We're going to do a whole episode around some of the stuff that you were talking about. I think merits conversation. Yeah but just to say I do appreciate the fact that you know. He's he's telling the truth I mean he'll he's out there he's engaged and you push back when you see things to save you. That's Bullshit Jeffrey Epstein thing. I just ignored to answer the question is I think I answered questions about not the actual question I would say I am I very on where I am depending on in certain contexts. And so let me give a caveat to that. I am probably at least a five maybe more as far as when I hear or see Blatant Racism Happen Open. I have zero issues with calling it out. I don't care if I lose people in my life over that because it's just it's it's wrong I would also call it out if I saw other. Evils evils happen right But I think the harder part is is one Win I am not the utmost host authority our utmost qualified in the room I will Kind of refer or defer to that person Because they feel like it's they're more qualified now if they don't I've zero issues calling it out and standing up and being the ally or being that support because they're not Able to at that moment but on social media so I do a business that is based on. Well it's a sales breath position and so the hard part about social media has thrown its essential oils. That's not no okay. No no it's it's just it's it's I'm not afraid to call out. I'm not afraid to be on social media. I do feel like I don't know that it always profitable in. I don't know that I always have the time or even just The tolerance I am of the stuff. That's on their The people that are on there. Sometimes I'm like this. This is not. Is this going to impact anything. If not that I. I'd rather spend my time somewhere where it will but also have that catch twenty two of realizing saying that People going always political going always negative is also bad for for myself professionally when there's a business attached to my name at my job so that's difficult thing it's a balance is last week at my job. They're they're like hey I feel like they're perusing people social media You won't get fired for it but the job that we're in like hey you know just you know our clients. Let's look up. They want to know who they're working with like. Hey you know if you're on social media just don't be posting about you know politics and religion like then I guess they're just not gonNa work with me. I'M NOT GONNA I'm not GonNa Change things but I think the difference is that you've already established yourself as being that voice so because that's not necessarily I'm not running a podcast. I'm not speaking out on all of these things are ready And I do operate in a world where that Kyanne losing clients and I'm okay with it if it loses clients to some degree also but I I also know that just being blatantly overly negative overly political or overly. Any of those things isn't isn't even about losing people. That disagree agree with me. Sometimes it's just that they they don't WanNa follow it and I need them to follow and remember and be remind them of of me so that they using hosted successors posters. Okay next question. So what's are racist in that. How would you? How would you define it because I know one minutes but that was the question? How would you define a racist? We were wondering and Matt Wilson. I John You there. He's all hopped up a benadryl breaking up. We're losing them. Bet Matt Matt Hangup callback right. So we'll go to somebody hearing room. Oh He's got he's got I you know. It's it's an interesting question because how you answer. It is how the discussion goes. There's a pure definition of racism. Racism as opposed to cultural issue. The the social issue. Now you talked to some white people for example and I happen to be white Nothing if you notice that our listeners for your listeners at home yeah. They view that Anyone that disparage US someone based solely on their on their race is a racist and it doesn't matter whether they're black or white there can be black racist there can be White Racist Cetera. There are some view that black people cannot be racist. Because there's an talking about systemic racist racist which is our last question so don't get ahead of us on that one all right so with that I'll go to someone else because the question is how do you define racist yet. Right is not there now here. I I'm here can you hear me. Yeah so how would you define the word The term racist. Yeah so I mean I you got so I don't want to jump the gun either but like it's you know it's It's it's someone who has decided that there are there's higher goal structure structure of of people and that certain that I really I really only see it from the point interview of the systemic stuff so when I think about that it is really just like it. It's IT'S A it's a white folk thing to be Thinking that they are better than everyone else and have a whole list of reasons. Why but what I also do is get really frustrated with With kind of the the branding that I know that's what this show is entered the way that twenty four hour news cycles wonder like is this person racist or not. Is this person racist or not And I feel like that's such a useless discussion because it's more like is this thing they did you know is there. Is Racism happening. Okay right because when you brand people racist winds up happening is that everyone's afraid to really talk or or I should say white folks become afraid to talk. They're afraid of saying the wrong thing thing. And then you wind up just embedding more subtle systemic racist tendencies and they never get really aired out. Because they're afraid of being like Paula Dean. And you know I am. I probably Dean I you know. We'll we'll just leave her. We'll just throw her out on the rug. We won't call anyone else out. Who is being asked if they're racist or not By by the by the news talking heads but I just feel like It winds up. We should talk about racism And yes call out racist behaviors But somehow that becomes the spin that I think wanted killing more conversation than not Jennifer. Okay so oh how do I define racists. I define racist simply as the concept and the idea that somebody is superior or inferior based on their race and so and we are for the person's conversation for those listening speaking primarily about the American context. So yeah I understand the like in Rwanda. The Hutus to that was racism going on there right South Africa racism going on there but we're talking specifically within the American context. Just yeah so within this concept of the term racist. The thing that I've really worked on is addressing the E. It's called Dr Robin Dangelo refers to it as that good bad binary. So if you're a good person you can't be racist if you're a bad person you're racist and so that makes it very difficult for people to say things like yes I am racist. I have racist ideas. I hold racist ideology so a lot of times Will refer to it even as like this idea of white supremacy. I'll use that word interchangeably. But even that is a trigger word for people because they tend to think of people who are Nazis part of the K. K. K.. But if you break it down and you look at it very simply the idea the concept that there is some level of superiority the in person and inferiority in person I would argue that all white people hold racist ideas and it's embedded in us from from the beginning. Yeah those are until I would say just to divide the two I think there is a difference for instance racism and having or profiting from racist society. You know systemic racism or racist ideas and not being being aware of them and actually being what I would call a racist and what I mean by that is I do think that yes. We are made aware we need to take ownership and maybe makeshifts in things bite. I don't know that I would call the average person who benefits from system. That was set up. That doesn't necessarily really know any better at outright racist. I think I would call I. Would I would quantify them as maybe being on informed and and other things but and benefiting and still may be profiting from that system. But I would call a racist. Somebody ready who is blatantly believes in the system that because of one race or another being in a high being being superior to another or because somebody's race they are inferior. I would call that person and racist David. I'm sorry I don't understand and why we keep conflicting these two terms so we the question to me is okay. What's a racist? Not What systemic racism thing I would. Are you trying to save the systemic racism. I just wanted it yet so because to me. It's pretty simple. Do you think somebody is better or worse than you. Because of their race period the end of story that that is a racist which is the Oxford definition. But that's okay so question yeah agreed so have any of you ever been accused of being racist Was the accusation legitimate or illegitimate. And if you'd be if you'd be willing would you describe the situation. David go first because he's already laughing. Story is going to tell so Dave. Just go ahead. So once upon a time Thursday I know years ago now I wrote a blog on the site simply titled. If you don't like the changes coming to Detroit get involved and in my entire point behind. That was that I was tired of the people that were just sitting by the sidelines. Not Getting engaged and disintegrate like even acknowledging. There's sometimes you can't get engaged but you know just instead of instead of screaming that it's not going the way you want it and then try to figure out a way to get involved you know or or you whether that's through you know even all the way through elections and everything else forgotten bald Right you know and you know 'cause yeah and and so we'll wind up happening. Is I publish that. And within two hours To local sleazeball publications Basically took my my article and and one of them titled IT Middle Aged White Guy from the suburbs hates black people in Detroit The other one Very very similar and to this day both of them wonder why I hate them and won't let them near stuff that we do but One of them ended up. Taking your advice. You can get involved in government. Yeah but continue. So yes I mean and it and it went like it got really heated You Know I. I got a lot of emails from people. I got a lot of messages from people I. I I used to say I lost a few friends over it but at the the reality of the situation was not I lost people that were around for other reasons other than they were my friends. and it got to the point where I started getting phone calls from media outlets and so There is some local poet. I I honestly was. He can't remember her name Who wrote Something called Old Detroit New Detroit and it was basically taking aim at me as well and I I. You're we're very famous day do ridiculous And so started getting phone calls from The folks from flashpoint Appeal local Elvis and PA called and said Hey you know definitely want you to come on. And I said Nope. Sorry Click They called back as it. Hey No devon really really wanted to come on and I said told you nope. Don't trust the media. Sorry Click Got A phone call. Five minutes later. It was devas- Gillian himself. and Said Dude. Look I I read. What what you wrote I get it? He's like I don't want you to you know wind up getting filleted over this Come on the air tell your story. Let's have the stock And so I did and it was hands down. Probably one of the best thing I mean in hindsight is one of the best things that are happening with traffic wise it helped launched our podcast significantly higher than it was and it was in my mind dumb and it's and it's because of one of the things I was talking about earlier where people took what I do. You know anybody that anybody that knew me or knows me reads that peace and goes all my God. How could anybody in a million years get that out of that But people that don't know me you know they. They read flat tax and they assign they assigned intent and they assigned a militias tone to it which to this day I still hate? I mean I I still hate that. That whole situation even happened You know I had you know the the the one. The one publication went so far as to publish where I worked who I worked for As part of their peace cancel out. Oh they were they. Were trying to cancel trying And Luckily the people that I worked for a new me very well and knew exactly you know who I was and what I stood for and and it was and the funny part of it was is it wasn't I don't think it was too. It wasn't too long either before or after we did that for a half hour marathon Russian but I mean it is what it is so yeah that was that was. That was my experience was that Lord. We'll we'll file that under illegitimate known about this. This story for for years and I've for whatever reason I'm thinking to ask you for the first time. Is that available to read. Oh absolutely oh I know it's I take nothing down. It's absolutely out there in fact there's a if you read it now. Because as things were evolving over the course of that day I went back and did an addendum to it and said hey for what it's worth breath. Nothing in this piece is being edited But there are a couple of de bags out there That have tried to assign this intend this tone to it. Those of you the no domino. That is not the case. Here's exactly what I was saying this this and this You WanNa talk about it. y'All know mail address. Click here say I know it's absolutely still other the issue Yeah so Yeah Several Times interestingly. If I count The Times I've been called racist more from white people Saying that I'm racist against my own people It which is really interesting to me. I don't really really know what that means. But that goes back to the differing definitions of the term races and And so in in the way I think that doesn't make any sense but But Yeah I think One of the most provocative times was With who became a WHO is one of my best friends co founding partner of the table setters Marvin and we were working on a presentation and he served the screenwriter Mervyn's an African American man He's a baby boomer And I am not. I'm not. I'm a European American and more gen-x but anyway so he is a screenwriter. He was he the way his brain works. Is he just like his post notes everywhere like you know you know this this scene in that scene so when he's putting together kind of works that way and he'll just like send me a whole bunch of notes We're supposed to put a presentation. Haitian on a about sort of racial reconciliation work. And he's sending me all the stuff and I am feeling it and I'm trying to Make expensive it and I'm trying to put it together into something that we can put put like a half hour. You know powerpoint side thing together and I'm struggling and he's like you know. Get it back to me in like a week or two and then a week or two goes by and I'm I'm trying to to manage it and it's not happening and it just comes to a point where he calls me and it's it's really funny story. We're told a lot where I'm walking down the street and he calls me on my phone. I'm about to catch. The bus is in L. A. and And he starts just like what the hell what's going on. I'm like a given this to you. You're trying to control the narrative like like every white person trying to control their and I'm like Oh my God so like step over into this highly so you'd be like we're cursing at each other and It it's a mess and he's like you you you're you're about to call you the White Devil and I'm like you Kinda just did. We're yelling at each other and And then no joke this man and I'm like all about like like equitability ready and and compassionate work with people living harmlessly and this man that is in the alley means like what the man people are trying to sleep in your. Would you say she knows where. Oh my God and then we just start laughing and Marvin. I have at this point on friends for like eleven years but it was and I and would I confessed. was that Yeah I mean I I have this perfectionist thing in me and so is Marvin sending me all the stuff. I'm trying to process it and really really the the narrative behind underneath that is like I wanNA show Marvin that I get it like I want to show it. I WanNa put all this stuff. He's throwing at me. I'm trying to make a through line. What I'm trying to think what I'm trying to control the narrative but not not to control it from him but to to make sense and and so I was scared to present back to him is really the truth? I didn't want wanted to feel like he was upset that I left anything out. And he didn't really care he's just. He's just spitballing stuff. He's like let's do this. And so from there despite it and so it hurt but then I realized like I'm trying to impress him which is also a strange sort of weight fragility thing. I've come to understand but but the point was is that we're going to shape all these these things together like that. You can send me some stuff but we're not going to go like week or two before we we started running together so that was that was. That was the time but yeah for the most part art most people who call me a racist are the kindest racism story I've ever heard. No that was a very smart and very well ended up with almost an embrace garden together. Yeah well we we. Sort of maniacally maniacally laughing in. And I'm like I don't know but anyway it. Yeah it turned good. We created a nonprofit out of it. Anyway Rick What about you. I've been accused of racism so many times. I can't even begin to count. I have to preface it with my in my career and the environment I worked in. You know we're talking about working in prison and part of my job was staff discipline and Dan probably staff discipline not not prisoners. Well I would do both. Okay all right I just WanNa know what you said one of them. I only enjoyed you charisma. Short all see. Here's the thing like short. We just read something online. Today said like short people are generally more angry angry or more violent than to all people so much evil is packed into the list. With a mega bitch. Oh he was. He was a deputy warden. He's like Yay hi. Hi Oh my God Oh my God. There's no question about. I would not want to be sitting across the desk from you with prisoners. There's an expectation you know. I mean everyone's posturing in prison anyway to begin with and they'll make the assumption just because you know you're white they're black Arabic you know you're not the staff was It was an interesting thing pretty much any time. I would do. An internal investigation an employee. There was a fifty fifty chance that I be followed up with a complaint of Some kind of discrimination. I have been accused of being anti White Anti Jewish anti southern I said Y'all to somebody what he wants. And they filed the complaint after they had been disciplined for sleeping in the parking lot and not coming to work but right after that they found that understood but it became so frequent. People need to sleep. So I understand is true but the frequency is actually a benefit because I stopped considering it as a real issue issue allowed me to evaluate individual incidents as opposed to the garbage people. Were just talking tonight at At the dinner that we had we we we have a guy who who comes you know income to the dinner with his family and he is a science teacher is a science teacher. I WANNA say Denby High School. So and he's a white guy he's a white guy had been there for years and Denby a pretty much all black school if there is a white student. He's just in those really cool videos. Were just ballsy various business. We're just playing video games. Everybody it's so funny but it's basically just as white kid a SPEC- ABC. So he's like one white kid at at all black college college but either way. Tom Is a science teacher at a pretty much. All Blacks Mersa by the way to and and he said. Hey you no next week he we were talking about this episode tonight. He said next week report cards are going to go out perkins going to go out and there are students who are failing and and it is inevitable that those students are going to come to me and say you failed me because I'm black. Well then I'd have to fail everybody like you didn't turn in your assignments you didn't come to class. That's why you have an F.. Right and so I get it like. Hey you know. What he's he's GonNa Perspective of illegitimate seems like a lot of the stories are kind of illegitimate? Hey it's coming from a place of you know with when you get some more hardcore. Imagine Gotcha story notwithstanding who is coming from white people. It's kind of interesting but yo- you being in a prison population where people are being disciplined. And then saying oh it's because you don't like this group covered somehow by racism put. Oh yeah some of it's inevitable gender. Anything I the anti anti southern one was probably the funniest. I've never heard that that's not. I'm anti southern but you know that's me the such choice people though bless your heart bless your heart not all southern people are bad. Come on now So interestingly enough I was called racists like the guy who completely did it no me hadn't seen me etc so I was working as a receptionist for or a real estate company in Troy. That is now no longer open actually Just because the owner retired but I got a phone call and a lot of people misunderstand that when we are representing seal and a property we do not own the property we do. We are not responsible for the upkeep and maintaining that property property the owner the seller still owns it. You're representing the sale where you're giving a survey so we would get calls often. Whenever a neighbor thought that the grassy acid to be cut or something needed to be done they would? They didn't know the number two owner so they would call our number sign and call and complain at in which point there was really nothing you can do about it but we would let the Egypt no and they could let their their seller. No and hopefully they would use the main So this is one of those times. I answered the phone and before I can get more than the greeting out. This lady starts going off of me and this property happens. Our office office happened to be in Troy. The property happened to be in Detroit and she made lots of assumptions and she started going off of me saying that not just myself self but that our company we racist that we wouldn't let a property up in troy get their grass. Let their grass get this high and she just I could barely get a word in elsewise elsewise to even find out. What is the address? Like let me let me know some information before we start going crazy on Finally finally she I she takes a breath and I'm able to get the address while I look up. The listing agent and it happens to be another black gentlemen in the the office so I explained to her that you know I'm just the receptionist I can't do anything about it but I'd be happy to transfer her to the listing agent. And maybe they could get a hold of the owner once she finally Took a breath so I do that and she's so ridiculous that he hangs up upon her because he knows this has nothing to do with any of what she's assuming he watch just continued to fuel the fire and says she keeps keeps. She calls back she even more upset. Somebody else hangs up on her. And then goes all the way up to management anyways it was a completely bogus claim completely bogus claiming because nothing happened nothing had happened but there were assumptions. Made So I mean little file that under illegitimate okay. Yeah Yeah Jennifer seeing. Here's me like listening to these stories and thinking like why are we in these situations. Why are we in a place where this is? It is assumed in put out there. And what can we maybe learn from those things but that would be another so so For me like Matthew afew. I have been accused so many times of being racist against white people and the funny thing is I've been in this work long enough that like I say white people in and apparently there are a lot of white people out there who don't feel comfortable with using that terminology and so they're like that's racist white people and I'm just like you guys are ridiculous. Yeah so I'm racist against people. I like exactly right now Iran. Oh but so that those are really more most recent stories of of being racist interested. You know it's funny. I found myself I myself in A. I don't know where to file this. Interestingly enough it was years ago but it was barnes and noble back before this Barnes and noble location closed at Point Plaza. In Grosse Pointe Michigan and I asked Hey do you have a section of books dedicated to just black authors in the lady on the other line was like Sir. We have an African American book section. If that's what you're asking sounds like that's exactly what I'm asking you. Do you have a black off. Thank you I'll I'll be there so I got there and found the section got the book I would got to. The Front of the store turns out the clerk was a black woman and I was a black man and both of us. Had this moment where we understood. We've we've both in our whole life dealt with you. Don't sound black right so she assumed I was some white guy. Well you got a black section like what African American you gotTA Use African American. Because you're black you're white and I'm like who's this white bitch. Don't tell me. Correct me as as a backpack and then we both get like. Oh Shit. We Cou fist-bump fist-bump just blunt we good But it's it's kind of interesting. I don't know where to file that under an assumed there's assumptions on both sides which I think and I'm not trying to for in. I wanted to have lots of different types of people on this show but I understood the people that excess no no. I ended up the people that are the people that ended up on the show all white and I know that there's going to be pushed back. Why are you centering? White feelings and thoughts might stories. I I work with WHO ends up on the show. Oh I think it's it's just where was I going with that whereas going with this. Is that moment that I found myself in with take this woman. Let me know that regardless of your color whether you're white or you're black whether you're brown doesn't matter every race. Every ethnicity is given to making assumptions about other people doesn't matter could be about race. It could be A. Oh Hey my. My Dad abused me so I I make an assumption that all men are evil right or you know. This girl dumped me so I make an assumption that all women are evil so I think that all people are prone to assumptions and we feel sheepish when we come face to face with those assumptions functions and which takes us back to that first question of the whole online thing when you're online you don't have to feel sheepish. Because you never come face-to-face with anybody. So seems like there's a lot of stories of illegitimate claims about racism when what happens when a claim of racism is eligible Does it do you feel it. Dilutes the legitimate claims of racism or are legitimate claims of racism. Not going to be. He believed either way matinee. Your thoughts yeah. When I read that question that's the so the second spin you put on his act feel feel like I feel like what I hear? More of is that Claims of racism are usually de-legitimize is right away and they cleans the racism. I mean claims of racism is from People like a person on the people do color speaking against against some things A white person did or like a you know a bar. A A white lead establishment did and it almost always is is questions. Dan Skepticism. On like. It's it's sort of like holes poked in it right. I mean you think about you think about all the things that happened when and When you know somebody is killed by police officer and as soon as that gets brought up When a when a black man is killed oh by police officer and that could spread up There's always there's always holes poked to try to put that person into a place of some sort of criminality or some sort of justification. That's so for me. I feel like the bigger problem. Is that most claims of racism. And maybe that's that is changing. Maybe I don't know it seems like most kinds of racism Are Are de-legitimize. Right away. so I see that as more I don't feel like I've seen the other side of it. But that's that's my perspective. I don't think it necessarily negates or or hurts valid claims that are out there because I mean nine times Eta ten when something really truly happens it. It's it's recognizes. Yes that that really happened. And that was a yet for the love of God that that should not be that way But what would I do think happens is it is it can it can it. Can it contender the initial reaction. You know so so it's and I do because I think now i. I don't think we've hit a there. Hasn't been a tipping point where things have gotten so over the top with false claims where the first reaction is probably not. I mean to me. The first reaction does still tend to be yet. That's that seems like something that probably we happened Unless it's really out there but no I yeah I mean I. I don't see it having a real negative impact on it at least not at least not in my circle. So here's the thing is i. Don't think it I don't think in of itself makes legitimate intimate claims illegitimate. However I do think what it does is provide a lot of people even even guilty people or innocent bystanders? There's not be confronted with what did happen. What was wrong because it gives them a scapegoat? It's well maybe it. It was X Y and Z. You know It gives an excuse. It gives a A cover you know so I just like for example Wayne a woman claims to be raped because there is the exception to the rule of a woman who made a false claim. It calls into question whether or not it is legitimate. And I think that that does meter disservice to those legitimate claims so he gives a scapegoat. Go to give a reason for a question minority if we go back to the original question where does does it dilute legitimate emmett claims or are CL racism already not believed when it comes to women being raped going. Okay well they're already diluted or women are not already not believe believe. We don't believe you already. I guess that's what I'm saying. Is I think that it's already not. I do think it's already not believed that. Racism is alive is an well a less it is blatant and so unfortunately I think it does give a scapegoat especially to anything that has nuance to it Those those things are that are in that grey Areso and I think it does give a scapegoat to so if it's not blatant it's not KKK. They didn't go lynch somebody something that people can't deny it gives gives a lot of people a way to sleep at night. I think. But that's just my opinion. You know people that are defensive on the issue of racism when they hear a false this claim it gives them an Aha moment to say. See See I told you told you. So that one in their eyes and those people that feel the same way does it. Dilute it. And they're already at the point. It doesn't matter right. I will say that it doesn't does it. Actually delete it. I think it diluted some people's people die sometimes hear the stories of we're GONNA wait for more evidence to come out which is seems to me as a black person in America code for. I'm going join to wait for just enough evidence to come out that will allow me to extrapolate far more and claim that my story is the accurate version of events like Jeffrey F student. Yeah so the way that the deal was designed here. Rick Oh they told me you know I I I get it. Wait for evidence because by training. I'm a fact finder whereas evidence a lot next week. Interestingly enough yeah I believe in in facts I believe in evidence hardcore evidence I believe in the in the importance of individual words. I believe in truthfulness. And we've been music I believe in love grits Stanford Okay so So I'm going to be a little more controversial here. Perhaps but so as of white woman I want desperately to be a good person and I want to distance myself from anything and everything that would call into question in my intention. My heart my motives. My you know whether racist or not be above reproach so I'm going to look for for every possible way to make something not racist and so this idea of an ideal with this a lot. It's like how many times I've heard of Jussie Z.. smollet in that case as a dismissal. For All of these other instances of racism. It's like people are looking in for excuses so I almost feel like I mean you're always going to have these things. In in a lot of white people are just looking for an outlet. YEP This I'm not sure this is valid. You know it's like we're trained to do this. And so also I think it's important to understand and to have an agreement on what the definition of racism even is because we want to talk about racists as clan members and in in these really obtuse bigoted people but the reality is what about all of the subtle title forms of racism that people of Color and particularly black people deal with on a daily basis. We call the micro aggressions right. It's the thing that that adds adds stress and anxiety. Why do those things exist in this idea that people believe that? Like I appreciate what you're saying. I don't know your your friend group or whatever but the majority of my black friends who've talked about microaggressions is there never believed they're constantly question they're constantly told that. Oh when I talked about the fact that somebody eighty followed me around a store my friend said Oh well you know crimes probably just bad and they follow everybody around the store. I've been followed around the store. And there's always this this desire to downplay what people are experiencing interesting story on that. There was somebody who gamed the system knowing knowing full. Well that because he was black you'd be followed around store. He wanted to steal. You did want to steal what it did is he took his white friends in with him. Aw and his white friends stole all the Shit while he was being followed around. It's amazing like you're still a criminal but also kind of a nice nice fuck you now. You're mastermind fuck you to your racism bitch. Oh but anyway. I'm obviously not all black people criminals models you know not all white people are criminals. That's just the way it is but if you if you're black man a white friend he might be criminal true story what that guy did. Thank you have no idea. Somebody's GonNa talk to the police so let's go to the next question and we'll we'll close out this half of the show with this this question. I guess it's my turn up. Okay so question five okay just making sure we're crossing boundaries is what is what is an isn't considered race racist based on the perspective of those who feel they're experiencing it or those who are being accused of it which matters more context or intent matthew and I'm sorry I feel that uh-huh can you say that again. I'm having trouble understanding. The first part of that question is what is and isn't continued. What say it again? I'm sorry okay is what isn't so is what isn't isn't considered racist is your definition of something as racist or not based based on the perspective of those who feel that they're experiencing it or those who are being accused of it which matters more context east or intent so let let's give an example so someone does something and someone says that's racist and the person who said whatever they were saying it was like well. That's not not racist so ORLA when when Dave put out a legitimate article saying hey you know this is what you should do and someone says No. That's racist and days that's not racists is what I was doing. You heard my tone on both of those versions of. Yeah but what matters more context. The context of the people receiving the message or the intent of the person sending the message. Well I think what has mattered more Sadly I think sadly has it's something soon as being racist Say Away person is accused of being racist I think what often happens is Is is they get off the hook a lot for just being like well. I didn't need it got I think I said I said this a lot in around in when we're hiring discussions with people that we we break down on like who's afraid of being called racist like an and people they open up about that like they must be we get through that and that is it's a sticking point people like I don't WanNa talk too much. I'm afraid of being called racist and I said like you know there's worse. Thanks for being called a racist and I think being called a racist for you as a white person that may get then. Called raises is leading a body that racism impacts awesome day to day basis. That's worse like you'll probably survive that that name but the person that's experienced in the racism Definitely worse I think that Tenfold twentyfold and think that oftentimes going with the last question that people that are experiencing racism that are coming forward the state of experiencing racism and it's hurting their body or hurting their mindset is hurting her sense of safety often de-legitimize because a person who said why it didn't just let it go so I leaned towards what should matter more is the person that feels they're experiencing trust the person who is coming in and yes I will. I will say this By the way we're just GONNA power through so if you need to take a break and go get something. Just go get something right. I I feel like we've got some momentum here I will say that one of the the biggest things sorry going back to the story earlier whereas talking to Barnes and noble and I said that we both have probably heard it over and over you will. You don't sound black right so on the other side of that is and that's generally coming from other black people. Why don't you know what are you talking about what you sound black But generally from white people bullet comes out as a complement while you soar ticket. You're so well spoken right and JEN does not generally call me articulate well-spoken even though those things are true. They've been used. I mean meaner they've been used historically based on the idea. That black people articulate or well-spoken and so that complement is coming out of a stereotypical view. Of what black people generally are so. I'm trying to give you a compliment. I think I'm giving you a compliment and there are times where I have to go. Am I invested in this relationship. Chip this person is trying to give me a compliment. I understand their intent. This is my friend Tim. This needs to be a teachable moment. Tim here's what you're saying when you say even though you don't mean it that way I don't know don't ever say that again or before you say something if it's Joe Schmo who I don't know I have to stop and go. Is this a teachable. Moment is he'll any die on for this person right now are they. Am I going to jump in front of this bullet and start a fight potentially with this person and so I say as I mean generally. I'm obviously I'm not a guest on the show and the host of the show but I'll say context versus intent is a really crazy tightrope to walk so an well. What you just said touches on something that was brought up earlier as well where okay? That may not be racially racially motivated at all it. It's a lack of knowing dude that I I would come to you and go. Hey Man I've got panel discussion going on. It's not about re about about some random topic. I want you on that panel. Because you are so articulate and well-spoken right and it's because you're one of my articulate and well-spoken Hi and you and I have had enough of those so I guess if we're going the first time someone says it to me adding like as a complement now for you. We have enough relational capital. That we've had this conversation conversational cloudy. So if you come like Jenn public won't say you're articulate and well-spoken because she knows that not everybody knows story right right even though the CNN racial really relationship they might just. I think that I'm dealing with being married to a race person. You just could be the the issue I could be self hating black. Who thinks I'm white But I I have enough relational capital with you that. I know we've had this conversation. So if you asked me to be on a podcast you asked me to come and speak at some event and you say it's because you're articulate. Well spoken is because because you know I can get ideas across. Yeah you know that people will understand what the fuck I'm talking about and will take away. Whatever once I make by the end of the leave with ambiguity a beauty or confusion yes so I get that but I have that relationship splitting? Here's two point zero and I understand exactly what you're saying Coming from when you say that but like a better a good way to say it would say you're good at public speaking. That would not have the history. Well that you're well educated that would not have a best a lack of knowledge that it could be someone could walk up to you like. Hey Man I've listened to your podcast. You're incredibly wealthy and well-spoken. Can you come on this other thing with me again. People to sit down and try to parse out compliments they right right and when you're talking about articulation is super important. You're a great writer. It matters when it's the written word you have. Excellent penmanship mentioned. I was like yeah exactly but I think the magic word year. We've it's been mentioned several times a relationship when you have a relationship you know I wouldn't. It's not I wouldn't call the freedom to say wherever you want. But it's an understanding of intent. You have a relationship when he says articulate. Well you know exactly what you mean do you know. He's not trying to for a black man that's not on the end of what he's saying he's saying. I need some good speaking for from a stranger. It's like I I know he's trying to cop right. I mean is attached to the end. There's no relationship and I think that goes beyond even what we're talking about today with racism When you don't have relationship tip you you miss each other You miss each other with intent. You miss each other with things you think are kind and I think when members of the white light community and members of the black community don't have relationship. That's where the misses happen. That's where MRS that. Maybe they weren't supposed to be Mrs at all but because there's no relationship so if you're not laying the groundwork for relationship you're gonNA miss a lot. I did I did. I did put this out to facebook. Then I wanna take your your comment Gen Three people answered this question online. John John Hoffman. Who actually designed our logo fantastic work fusion marketing there So shout out to John Hoffman. But he says intent ten matters more than context is an intense greater than contents. He's got the mathematical greater than Zayn. So that's John Perspective Kelsey olds in Daniel. Marie both commented Kelsey says the perspective of those experiencing. It should be given more weight than those being accused of it because someone can unintentionally hurt another person and then ideally they should be willing to learn from. I'm that and not do it again. Kills his good friend. She and her husband both white people but they've they've adopted black children. So you're kind of walking through these conversations and questions right now and then Danielle Marie. She says says I've subscribed to this my whole life. I can't assume to tell anyone what is offensive or racist to them. I can't speak to their experiences or fears. And no one should try to detract from someone else's experience by reclaiming their own feelings about it. Those are people who answered online Jen. Good three so. I lost what I was going to say. Exactly exactly but anyhow I still answer the question so I still. I think that as far as as far as the impact the EH person or the person that impact I think the I do think the victim is the one that should be that people should Be Concerned on as far as the impact goes in their lives because they don't get to just walk away with that from that sometimes it can. Maybe do things that that person might not have intended to. You know they might carry words with actions with them beyond that person's even knowledge right so I would say though as far as the person doing or saying things I think intent does matter sadder context as well. 'cause context also changes I think perception in intent. I don't think they're separate. I don't think there's things oh you divorced from one another But what I mean by that is with intense There are people that like. We've just discussed who maybe see things on knowingly and on in in an uninformed way that don't realize the historical context or the precedent that was set before for them and we're that is coming from and why that a seeming a compliment that was meant to be given actually comes across as something with negative impacts With that being said though I just all of us have had words whether or not. It's a racist assist interaction. All of us have had words and actions from other people whether they intended them or not that way that we have carried with us or had to work through. And so I do think that A Lotta Times people say and do things that they keep going and they don't even realize allies the impact So that one person that's having to carry that luggage and do the work to work through that I think that's the the wheat The weighty eighty side. The the person should get that weight Because they're having to work through the actions of others but again I do think intense is a big thing and context. He says well I have a bigger impact. Yeah who was not going on this yet track okay. You don't want any issue issue. Not The issue. Is that a lot of this deals with Told my right now. Smile dialogue between two people. A problem we have is it in the corporate world and the the Businessworld Corporation has a stake in this. So there's no room for dialogue if you are someone says. This person made a racist comment. Yeah most companies have zero tolerance that stops any conversation just just kills kills it right then and there someone that here's a comment. Being made their mandatory reporter in some cases they have to report it that that kills any conversation which I believe is problematic. I believe context is more important than the intent for the most part. But if you cannot address with the person with an arbitrator or just the other person is just GonNa Fester. It's it's it's not a healthy situation. Yeah so I'm a firm believer in impact over intent And if we think about like what is the context right right like if you have a culture where it's acceptable to Circumcise girls at the age of seven. Because that's just the culture culture you grow up in a good at is that okay simply because the intent isn't to harm. The intent is to honor the cultural practice or the religious practice. We we can all probably agree here. I hope that that is harmful as practice so we have to be able to look at the why behind this right right and and I think like some of the stuff. Sometimes I sit with these conversations and these realities and I'm like we live in this broken place but we live in this this broken place. Where relationship isn't even possible some of the time most of the time because we were intentionally divided because this system has has been built and so? That's where I don't think we can really separate racism from systemic racism because if we really look at why are we where we are. How did we get here? How is race even created for what purpose was created? And then you start to get the context of this and you start to understand. And that's why wait for me. I think it's important to say like I have dedicated. My life to antiracism work. I am a racist. I hold racist ideas. Still in the form of of unchecked unrealized unrecognized bias. It doesn't make my impact less harmful so the question is when do we just stop APP. Clutching are pearls in stop. You know being like but but I love black people. I love people of Color you know like I have best friends spouses etc and go. You know what I want to look into this more. Why are we where we are today? How do we get through this? It's like a cancer diagnosis. Which I've had and I'll L. Finish up here in a second? It doesn't help me when I get a cancer diagnosis to be like you know. I'm not really GONNA look at why I don't really want to treat read it. I just want to pretend I don't have cancer. Go along my merry way doing things eventually. That cancer is probably GonNa kill me and so I think that way when we're talking about racism uses them and division and all of these things. How do we start just looking really realistically at why were we are? And how we get out of it so I just have. We're really quick question. Though Lake thinking through that I think you are fire. More self aware of some of those things than a lot of people are are an even even are willing to do the work and soon how does that. I guess my question is how does that solve going forward. It doesn't it doesn't and here's the deal there's this idea called virtuous signaling. Hey you know I because I'm involved evolved in these things I've I've arrived. I think always being aware of still holding recite US having that impact While you're doing this work because like that's important because a lot of people get into this like hey you know I have friends husbands. Who can't be racist or Democrat the Democrats I love Black People so Mr blackberries right so I think that there there is no solving court Other than continuing to be self aware knowing that you're never gonNA arrive But that takes us to the David reentered on this. I can't it's it's okay all right. So Steve Questions So are some things always racist or did they become racist over time Just to kind of help me think of sports teams on sports. Teams names like The braves Cleveland Indians Washington Redskins They were considered one point in history but are now considered racist. So that did they become racist or they they always racist a we just didn't pay attention realize it or just call it out for what it is. I'M GONNA I'm GonNa jump in and feel fear determine head straight every. There are degrees of racism right. Sort of racist kind of racist very races. I think I think redskins is vastly more offensive than Indians. And that's why Redskins is or braves and I think that's GonNa you're GonNa find that ninety ninety. Nine percent of the political activity is not directed toward those three names. It's toward the redskins and that's when I throw in that historian thing where I go. Hey I'm colonial. Historian and redskin native Americans adopted the name Redskins themselves in a way which is which makes me also so go well. Black people can use the N.. Word but y'all can't so all right so is it. One of those native Americans can call themselves redskins but nobody else and you'll have people right and you'll have to people of native descent. Who will say no? That's absolutely that's the that the colonial word we are not using that my tribe it does not use that. But then you'll find Samuel says whatever just the word and it's like you can't tell somebody important to them understand the need to use those words if if they changed their logo to a redskin potato. Will this go away. It's interesting thought at this point. Jen The the need to use. Those words is based based in a hundred years of using those words marketing identity. You've is based in the use of that word however can't learn push back here because you said of those three Redskins the races. We don't call people Indians anymore. Absolutely did not said of those three redskins. The most offensive is okay. So it's the most offensive so I would say that I'm sorry Jen But Indians we don't use a term anymore. Absolutely do well we call American gymnast just people it just as Americans and the government has an office bureau of Indian affairs. Okay we do use turnage okay. What we use? So let's go with this so for a second and I'll stop I mean especially if I don't have to but Dave Indians redskins still at bottom bottom. You've got the question of appropriation. These are people that we obliterated Right and now we're using completely. Blew them a neighborhood right. We give them casinos fine now and blankets with smallpox. Let's not forget that feeling but there's this it seems to me by killing everybody and then adopting their names for our sports teams. I mean generally I just celebrated our our anniversary and we were at Powell. Hatton resort down in down in Virginia Paul Hutton. Was a father on us. Read the story about happened to that Guy I'm like Holy Shit and others other just resorts after him like terrible him. Also old plantation. Like how Plantation Thomas up his story Pocahontas it comes in. I come from her Oh Paul Monkey really awesome. Virginia so okay there is actually there was a video oh years ago where this This guy walked around in a Redskin logo shirts and all the only change that was made made is rather than it'd be a native American. It was just a white male had an earthquake occasions. It was a cock and fusions and so they just he just filmed it. You know and what's funny is that everybody is like it's just a sports team get over it And people were so mad. People were so mad they reacted so so badly to the fact that he was walking around with the shirt they were very angry And I think that just shows the level level two level of just how wrong it is we just don't we don't need all that but again. Are there done enough words and our vocabulary that we can't do better that we have to use while I call an email that and also I just WanNa say from the perspective of an indigenous person here for for us to say. Well it's got one hundred years of history while if we had a sports team that was called some other racial. It's the Celtics. No this is something I won't. I won't say we wouldn't have any problem saying that's unacceptable. It's wrong to Stop Abbott. So the question is why is it okay to continue to Put put the indigenous people out there in this way the funny anything to me about the whole thing is that like Washington itself. Their basketball team for years since they came into the League was the bullets. They decided that bullets it was a negative connotation around the city of Washington vs how violent the city was and so they changed the name of the team. It's not like it hasn't been done before over something that wasn't offending budget. Absolutely but who was it. The took the initiative on that. It was the owner of the team. The owner of the redskins will die right before changing. The name of the Senate used to not be racist. It was always racist. The problem is that people were a lot more comfortable in their beds at night and the people with it being racist and the people who was against didn't have a voice that's right and and yeah and I was. I was going to try to answer that to you. It's like yes. They were always racist as idea of them becoming. Raise the sound like the kind of conversation conversation you here at Thanksgiving from the uncle. Who's like this stuff didn't used to be racist? It's racist to all these people are all you know their own social media talking about it right. How come it's always in life so I know it's a it's a it's a it's a it's it's a cliche but it's true but like the other thing when you think about what of their sports teams are named we go back to this hierarchy kind of thing of hierarchy like emails humanity and then you know thinking about where systemic racism comes from his putting people into categories? That aren't even human and you think about other sports teams the Tigers. eggers the lion. The redskin there's this level of like bringing things up as mascots right and that's really really offensive. Well we also have the Patriots. The Celtics cowboys. I mean it's not just that there's a lot of different names careers. I mean it's just just to just call just ended there on dehumanizing using based on the name of the team can be true but not always if you look across all the major sports. Franchises is Irish Celtics Ticks Celtic first of all so damn and get it right all right That's part of it. No I don't think so. I don't think so calling team the Patriots either the problem. Here's here's who call. WHO named the team? The context So if their mascot looks like logo depends right so hey chief Wahoo isn't get news right. I mean th so you know the Michigan State spartans were named after a you know a very famous. You know city state In Greece Because they were fierce fierce People into wells right but the point being The probably weren't The people who named the Michigan State Spartans Michigan says spartans. Probably were not Persian. Okay you have an age old and I can't tell you right now. The person businesses let screaming the SPARTANS. But I can tell you right now. It probably wasn't someone who had an age old rivalry with the people living in Sparta Talk. Sports teams came out of like the time that we had prohibition happening though because they needed another pastime to do so I I also that's coming in an era that wasn't exactly Politically correct in in all of its doings. Either so that makes sense aggie. Didn't that sound all that formidable. No on this on this question though for me. It's interesting like sports. We can get out because you know the the Redskins is a issue But I I think some things weren't always racist honestly an case in point there is a point where black people were called Negro right. We're called negroes right and my mom talks about the she's in her sixties like we were called Negroes and then we'll go black and now we're African American and I have a hard time keeping up and there was no negative connotation to being called Negro now. Have you ever called the other end word. Obviously there was negative connotation to that but Negro was just black people in America and then it was black and then you were black people in America. Now you're African American but if you were to call me Negro now that would be considered raises. And it's funny. There's an episode Black Ish Anthony Anderson Show where They are talking about the word Negro and his boss. His coworkers are like the oblivious Livia White people and I love he's always educating them and He's A and they're pushing back on the whole Negro. Were being racist like what do you mean. What do you mean China? I always donate every single year to the United Negro College Fund. Because you just donate to them so you can say the word Negro the only reason you say hey so and every year I give money servers all right caller people right and so I do think that there are Dr Things that do become racist over time but I would differentiate them from the things that have been racist the whole time and now we're becoming uncomfortable with the with the examples you gave them. I would say those have always been racist. The ones on not the ones you just said I mean the ones page. Okay all right. That's right so it's so easy just not to say those really is. I grew up in the same so badly. Why do you want to say that so badly I I grew up in the fifties and sixties and and the the woman that cleaned the house which was the colored lady? Well I haven't used that terminal on time just because someone said it's not a great word you don't use it anymore so just out of breath out of common decency. I just stopped so going back. This is sort of going back to the last question of content or context or intense is that Intense doesn't change. What happened but enchant tend to changes correction? There's intent where education is enough like you may not realize. Is that calling the the woman who Cleans Cleans Your House colored the minute you find out. Oh I'm GonNa not do that anymore. Right because your intent was never negative to start with It was just an education however if the context or intent is meaningful like you just don't care. Will that changes it from an Education Haitian to perhaps confrontation perhaps cutting them off. Perhaps whatever it might be. I think that could be where a major issue or disconnect is on this a People aren't going to take the time to Parse it out unfortunately but Is this is this a moment where someone lacks information like Dave Union. Bob Said Hey. We don't know y'all come in and talk to us. We lack information now. If you were doing something racist you know. Hey I need information you got the information and then you're like fuck that and you just keep going out still being racist well fuck you. You're a terrible person but if it's hey this person did something racist. It was racist. There's no way to. There's AH there's no two ways about it and then that person gets that information and they go. Oh my God I didn't know and they stopped doing it. Okay case in point point there was a guy here he was on a missionary trip. I was embedded journalists. I was taking pictures for them whether they were going different. Places in Detroit. These are Christians Christian missionaries and Dan. We were back at their area that they were staying the places where we were staying at. And they're all excited and talking about their stories campuses. They were going to talk to people. And and somehow somebody was buying something and it wasn't the right price and they were haggling over price and this is the leader. This is like the pastor their church church the school chaplain his. Yes this guys over there. He's trying to Jimmy down. What and and they're from the south from Texas right and I just tournament like what did you just say? Yeah Yeah so it's talk guy trying to Jimmy. You can't say that say you can't say Jimmy down. Why is a racist? How's that raises as like? That's just a term. I grew up to saying like little. You were worshipping Jewish person person and then seeing a guy trying to do your down like the Jewish people are cheap. Their money misers right. And there's a whole long history to that and he was like like I'm never going to say that again. I had no idea but he got the information and then changed. But if you get the information you know that's an issue when the Atlanta bringing up again appoint when we're talking about tent at the state of Michigan for every discriminatory harassment policy. It pretty much says your the intent doesn't matter at all so it doesn't matter what you think it's how it is received by the person that's the context that's memorialized that is part of the disciplinary process You can't come back from that. Let's let's move forward. I Wanna I wanNA jumped onto question eight. There's a few that I'm going to just kind of cut out time sake. Have you ever accused of being racist. I think I just jumped into that. Right did Have you ever accused him of being racist outside of the Internet described the situation Matt. We'll have you go okay. Yeah when I was a lift driver here. Dan Detroit About three years ago this news navy at least twice a week attorney But I had to be awful about it because it's so wanted to be tipped for so The I mean and and there was a time actually just sort of drop someone off but there was a really a it was a fruitful discussion. And I know that that's the privilege of meeting in this guy being way. But he gets them my car tigers opening day and and He gets in the car and upset about something. And I'm just putting in this stuff and he's GonNa be up in Rochester and he's like four times the amount so I can fast like. I'm like Oh this is going to be visiting Business Bank and As soon as we pull around the corner there's like everywhere He he noticed that the person is in front of us that I couldn't get around from it but whatever it was because of the black woman and he uses the N. word as a passer. And I'm like Oh damn and and then he's on the phone and and so he's he's on the phone girlfriends in an argument and and I'm like I do. How many call out? He's pretty aggressive. And so he gets up the phone and the first thing he asked. So what do you do and I was like how perfect so I just tell them about table stuff and then he he actually i. Didn't you have to actually use the term. He called himself and he went into this whole story about his his dad always think about it and he actually opened up a whole other thing about about stuff but anyway That was that was a good time where I was going to call someone but yeah I mean there's of the time it was it was it was hard like pretty racist of US trying to keep it like if I'm in a car with them And and some Ah. Interestingly isn't always go over well but people do like. Why do you say that got me again? I feel like I was able to do that. I'm behind the wheel. People don't WanNa Piss me off and And you know I you know I am a white person talking to other people but yeah I did quite often. I don't get much publicly and we solve racism goodnight. Everybody I feel good. I primarily do it on the Internet because the people I associate with Mel Smart are not racist or at least not overtly really the organizations I belong to end the ones like people I associate with Just are not in my opinion and no one of the one of the better things are better. I guess one of the best examples of this And we tried so hard to get him to change his ways but he never would Good old Mr Steve That owned Mr Steve. Kerr co-host no no okay. No Mr See that owned Mr Steve's that's next to Or was next. It's now the elephant room. I believe because he and his wife both died. So Mr St we. We had one of our Pink Slip Party events asset got. I'm talking to Saint Andrews there there and as you know the night was winding down. We were wrapping up. It was just tradition. You know walk next door. Eighty years old Greek. I just remember sitting there forever And so we we started to walk over. And my buddy gets there and He was the first one at the door music locked. I'm like dude. Just knock. It's okay and he was like what am I seriously asleep and I and I hate saying this out loud but we're white knock on the door. It's okay and he was like for real. I might just knock on the door until he knocks on the door. and Mr Steve. PEEKS peeks out from behind the bar sees you know five six white guys Comes around from behind the bar. Click Click Click. Click Click Click. Click you know all all the locks unlocking walking Looks out and says Oh you boy seem okay come on and then he would lakes citizen and laughably we had billy with us And so you know wasn't an entirely. Billy is billy black yeah and and And Yeah I mean it was and it was one of those things where we have these conversations with him every now Alan then and it's some of it was just the way he was raised. Some of it was having been in Detroit. You know through all of the chaos of sixty eight and everything else you need need had that bar forever robber And but he was just one of those guys that it was never going to change. And it's an and I think sadly there are like my father-in-law in law is one of them. Like he's this. This is a man who will not go below eight mile for any reason whatsoever like Willie Nelson was playing. who was his like his his islets has has God was playing downtown? I said I will get you. VIP tickets. I gotTa Hook Up. We'll get you backstage. You can meet him would not go. He had to have surgery he could either go downtown in town and it would be laproscopy and he would be back in healed and finding like three hours or he could go to the other hospital in port. Huron where they would basically fillet him. Open like a fish late take all his organs out yet. And that's what he elected to do so that he wouldn't have to go downtown at that France who wouldn't go north at my also. Yeah but but not because they were racist. Maybe right like you pulled over. They sound pretty waste to me. Ah Not going north of eight mile might be. They don't want to get pulled over by the Co.. I'm sure fearing for different reasons right wait eight one valid. One invalid I I have definitely accused people of Yuna Racist I I was in Missouri. So that's not a surprise I guess but when I was younger years ago My my great uncle died and we went over there to go to the funeral and it. The area that he died in was very eerie country but it was also very close to one of the headquarters for the KKK. So there is a lot of racism alive and well like to a level that I I had never seen an experience. I mean it was just blatant you know And I just I think it was a huge culture shock for me his I I just. I'm I'm not around it to that in that. Bold bolden emboldened form and and So anyhow I remember we went to dinner. Just nowhere in particular Nothing VNC or anything went to dinner at this one place and I just remember somebody drops a racist joke and I called about on it just without without question and we're also in an area where it's like okay. We don't WanNa get shot either. So I remember my mom was is like John. I know that's horrible like let's try not get us killed so And I remember we just Kinda like laughed in I I I said my piece but we laughed and then That was that but most of the time I think when I deal with racism I try. Try to deal with it in a way that can get the person to see because I think a more the racism ideal with his people who I don't think are informed and don't understand some of the systemic issues or the thoughts that they've been taught that come from that So I usually try to explain how. There's a history to something or or that kind of thing that it's a racist a systemic issue that is embedded in history. and not necessarily. I don't try to call out them as being racist per se I think you catch you get more. You get more done with honey than did you want to be the only be right or do you want to change something going forward because I again I think. That's where intent goes a little bit like we were talking about before so when I know that they just if you don't understand I I'm I'm hoping to educate them so I'm trying to not shut them down right away but when at that blatant absolutely we're have you entered on this you now. Let's a quick. Yeah 'cause we're we've got two more questions we want to get through before the show. I feel like it's kind of a cheap question for me because I literally do this all all the time. So I'll say this as a white woman when I first entered into antiracism work in started talking about it. That's when I started to realize how racist most people really were. Yes that was shocking. So it wasn't waiting for the racist joke. It wasn't waiting for that outright thing but saying to people. Oh I'm so excited I'm hosting a dinner party and we're GONNA talk about racism and antiracism and white privilege and things like that in all of a sudden every single person in the room who is a close friend of mine and white right reveals their deep seated racism in the questions they start asking and the things they start talking about. So it's interesting because I think as white people like we. You don't necessarily see these things because we all understand what it even it right well and we're not going to necessarily experience it but then suddenly he started saying. Oh Yeah I'm doing antiracism work and then you start to see. I didn't see it till I watch more dating or married to a black man or doing other things. Yeah Yeah so like the Matrix you know like you see the code now you can see it you see it everywhere right now. I just see Blonde Brunette So let's flip things around with history in view. Do you think that black people in America can be racist. Why or why not? We don't want them just saying yes or no. No Matthew answering this I I. I don't I don't occur now at this point jumping when he wants to okay. I'M GONNA jump Matthew since you know. I talk a lot Because because of my definition of racism being tied into the system integrally. My answer is very clearly no now can all people be bigoted and hateful and do so on the basis of race. Yes but I believe that there are different from what racism is. So that's my answer and why but racist have a different definition They have the the dictionary that if you're different. Aren't you know one person's superior that the other they don't WanNa hear the systemic racism discussion at all. It's true and the common common. The common phrase I hear is because I'm white I gotta be racist or because I'm sorry. Make it simple the end reports the one that you hear a lot is Because I'm white I don't get a handout or I don't get the help they like. You hear those lines and I think that's that's just but that's racist it is racist it's white supremacy. It is all that but they don't but that's that's the one that I have heard is white privilege exactly mazzy. Your thoughts Can Be Racist. They say well so so when I think about Talking about like If if we were like certainly going on with Jen Jen Kinney said You know I am racist right. I have been. I've had racist thoughts and actually just quickly jumping back into the last question. A little bit is like the best way to get into talking to people about their racism is sort of confessing it yourself. I kind of like going down a path like I had that thought once been like when you just said that is really racist Or like and that and I. I don't know how to speak about this but I learned from a lot of my friends especially my black friends in the city That the thought that I had that I would consider racist towards Some of my neighbors or the fears that I may embed about my neighbors Black folks looks semi neighborhood had said that they sometimes feel them too and and wonder if like you know the stomach. Racism talked about that. It's embedded there's a way way of thinking that even So I don't think black people can be a racist towards white people in the way that I see it but that's the stomach racism can infect wait supremacist thinking can infect all of us and in and that that way I think it's a bigger discussion and something that I don't feel comfortable speaking about it but I'm super curious about that and you know how does how does internalize and enough. It's Racism Martha Tomorrow. I think you said before. Calvin like a Sort of a self hatred or something like that. I don't know But it it's something that I've been thinking a lot about Ken Racism can race can wait. SUPREMACISTS thinking Be embedded by everyone. I think he can throw the David and a second but Just online at this question online as well John Hoffman again of fusion. Marketing says yes. I feel that anyone who passes judgment on another because of race or feels that they are above. Someone else is racist. Melissa Reagan or Regan. Egan Says No. Racism requires privilege and power Kelsey olds also respond to the last question. Second Statue says this. Racism Awesome is not synonymous with prejudice. I do believe that black people can be prejudiced. I do not believe they can be racist. Here's what I would say to Melissa Reagan. I think she's right right. Racism does require power. What we're not considering is if we are if if there's a closed system in which black people hold the power and there are some black owned businesses whatever and a white person finds themselves in that position they can be treated in a racist manner correct? Yes and have that discussion with with a lot of people like hey you know what if you're at a hugh where everybody empowers black right and you're white student in that space right. The the power dynamics has shifted but when every single black person in that college leaves that campus the power dynamic shifts in favor of that student so I think the question is what system are you in for you. Know to determine the power dynamic shortage which of words though to prejudice and we have racism and unfortunately they those two words we need to use to determine five or six different things whoa racism. Here's here's definition I would. I would say that racism is enacted prejudice. So what I mean is hey I think hey. I'm superior to white people on Black. We're kinda forever. What but I got no conduct? toback me up right so I'm just prejudiced at this point. I can't do anything that's going to harm you but if you are prejudiced and you have the power. I got a whole university. I'm the I'm the I'm the head of the university I'm the king of walk onto. I got behind me now I can. That's where but in that case even prejudice listen. Racism are two different things prejudice. You could be prejudiced because you have. Preconceived notions doesn't mean. You believe that my race is greater than your race but you say well. I heard there was a car stolen. So I'm I'm guessing was probably this guy or or hubcaps were stolen. I'm guessing was probably it was probably Hispanic because it was this big. You have a prejudice. It doesn't mean you're necessarily believe in racial superiority but but you are prejudiced. I think that for people like Jennifer and Matthew who do active. This is nothing against you. Who Do active active anti racism work? I think to call yourselves. Racist can cheapen the word and let real dyed in the wool racists racists off the hook but see I want to cheapen the word because I want to change so and this is an interesting conversation. We can have a show on the definition of racism right because a lot of people hold a lot of different opinions. One Opinion is that that the word is being changed. And it's like oh my gosh. The word is being changed but if you study language historically quickly words change meaning based on a number of things and so one. I don't really pay much into that too. I have a copy eh of a dictionary from nineteen sixty three and when I look at the definition of racism there were talking fifty some years ago. It does talk talk about the power dynamic in that so so even the argument that we're changing the word racist or racism isn't exactly true then we have to ask who's defining the words. Who wrote the dictionary who you know all of these things? So I want to cheapen the word in this sense. I want to smash cash the white supremacy that exists in our country in an order to do that. I have to show people that loving wonderful wonderful kind human beings who mean no harm hold racist ideas because that is the only way we're going to make strides forward forward. And so that's where I'm at if your thoughts on this so it and I do I think two words keep getting used interchangeably. And I and I don't know that I necessarily agree with that. I believe leave that racist and racism are two different things you can do. I believe that a black person could be accused of racism. No that's because you're now nick that to me. There's the evolution of the word that is now we're talking systemic racism. Now you're talking about position of power and all that stuff However a black person who just says as I hate all white people simply because they are white people? That's a racist pure and simple. I mean that's that is hating somebody or ascribing something strictly based on race but the problem. I understand where you're coming from because I used to think the same thing. The problem with that is in order to have racism facism or a racist. You have to have a superiority so the sense of superiority and at least the countless black folks that I've talked to about does have said like yes. You will get certain people who are like these small groups like the Hebrew is real lights are or this. This group who believes that black people blur superior but by and large that hatred against white. People doesn't come because they feel superior that hatred because like exists because of a cultural context of you know division enslavement. Jim Crow. Sure you know and all of those things and so so. It's it's more complex than that. This is what you've done and I hate you because you don't think we're equal and we are rice dot. I hate you because I think right. So that's just so it's like and then there's bigotry prejudice so bigotry hatred and we can look all these things up in a dictionary which said right exactly which year who was it another thought that I don't think we're putting out there is I also think there's a difference between using using the word racist racism Prejudice big at all of these things and simply the fear of being different or of what one or the other can do to them. And so what I mean by that is for example There are you talking about. There are people who don't want to go to north of eight mile now they might not be could miss qualified as maybe Prejudice or something else but is it really that they don't want to go out north of eight mile because they don't like white people or is it that like you said they're afraid to get stopped by the cops so there is a fear that causes a reaction or an action action or a A mindset and I think that a lot of these things that we're using terms to describe sometimes they're not even rooted in bigotry or racism. Sometimes it's also rooted in this fear of Somebody being different than as not knowing exactly what that will look like so this last question. We've got about ten minutes to play seven seven or eight minutes to play around this question but for those of you listening we were like wondering okay. Why are all these white people on talk about racism? There's no black people other than Calvin honestly mainly because of my conversations with Jennifer Jennifer Kinney on this Believe the saying get your people people yeah people are fucking up people so That's where this this last question comes from again. I would have been open to anybody being on this This episode but but just because we have people on here this conversation's gone in particular directions like the cast any good movie fighting racism so The last question is GonNa come from the fact that we got we got on this But is the problem of racism. A problem for white people in America to solve or do we all need to work together. Whose whose problem is this? This is for white people to solve because white people created it and because white people need to learn about in divest from something called Whiteness. Because the reality is we're actually not white right like I like how Matthews referred to himself as European American we all have S. Nick backgrounds. But in the In the I can't think of the word right now in the interest of providing a sort of space for the American culture to develop the white American culture to develop and to keep rule over people. There was this creation of whiteness. And what does that do to our society and people need to dig into that and I know this sounds hetty and people are probably like listening going. What is this woman talking talking about? But this is the reality. Do we need to work together. like what is that look like and what kind of burden am I putting on people who are in minority groups in saying yeah. We need to work together. I'm not here to tell black. Americans or Hispanic Americans or indigenous Americans what they need to do in this the I need to get my people right and the into the fact that we're all a bunch of white people talking except for Calvin Alvin here I I. I can't fathom how many black people would want to come on here and sit in a space with people they don't know and they don't have a trust in a relationship relationship with to have this discussion so I think that that's okay. You know because it might not be a safe place for a lot of people for you. You know everybody you have have that relational collateral right so anyway. That's my thought. Dave Wilson. Cut a building on that that whole okay. What's it like to be black in America? I I reached out to people I knew I reached out to you. I reached out to Cari. I reached out to Eric Way. Didn't even really know all that. Well but I knew he was very vocal about the topic. as well as some other people and I and to your point though those were people I had relationships with and so I figured they would be okay okay knowing that it was going to be what we said it was look. We're GONNA WE'RE GONNA WE'RE GONNA throw the ball up y'all hit it light it on fire. Do whatever you need to do with it. Go and to me like I do and I do still think people are gonNA be three years ago Just the different voices voices. That were there. I mean Calvin came at it from a very Both a religion and install perspective. You know Eric came from a very Generational regional and business and that kind of sense perspective and Cari would we all love carded. Cari was stereotypical angry. Black man he over the course of the episode but but Carr he's the one who's had the most experience with you know being on the wrong side of those engagements with police in that kind of stuff and it was angers right. Oh absolutely yeah but I but that's like one of the comments that we got was. Oh you had the well. There's a reason why he's angry. Did you listen to what he was saying or and kind of to one of your. We're you listen to what he was saying or were you listen to try to discount them right. That should you be angry too. Yeah Hey Matt. Yeah so I wanted to Build off all of that on you know. I think there's a there's a writer I might have mentioned on this show before. She's a awesome poet here in Detroit and Info on Petty Lady and she has a curriculum called toward humanity And she she's a black poet here and this book is is fascinating. Ask me because it it talks about how In her work anti racist work that she's done she said she's sort of pulled on on a sort of calling out That most anti-racists were been part of it was basically calling white people out for their privilege. And then just sorta like leaving it there And she he was saying that she would finding not to be super productive. And there's a lot of defensiveness and what she said was okay so we also need to recognize is that A system of hierarchy system of of of racism a system of white supremacists thinking actually hurts everyone and it and it's a complicated thing and and you should check out the book to sort of see she gets into but it hurts people in different ways of course but that this system actually hurts everyone so he gets into how like Martin Luther King was like yes so when you are poor and white you also feel like you're at the bottom of some wrong but that's because of the whole hierarchical thing that's been set up and I and and I think it's a beautiful awful thought that there's actually skin in the game for everyone. I think right now. We're at a school where it's a very diverse student body But there's not that many I need Teachers have colored at the school and somebody was bringing up the point that you know we need to have much color because The because you need those role models of course and I said but so do my daughter's like they also need to see black people and leadership and be taught by then Andy Taught I I people have fled because that's important And I think that the way this question's worded though. This is the problem of racism. PROMPTER white people in America. The solve eight at bucket that a little bit. Because I'm like Oh boy I've been in those rooms. Where where the diversity of them and the white people in the room start talking talking about it we're GonNa forget this and and there's a little bit of like Oh that was run with it too long and they are gonNA come back with this white thing And so what I would say is that yes to Gen would jen can he was saying is that we don't WanNa put. They shouldn't be burden but there should be an in opening humility so that whatever we work on ourselves and come back with its if we come back and like hey we got it now. We're all good and somebody calls us out. A person person of color called us out and we are like no no no but I really understand the not a problem. It's like there's a working together and so far there's a lot of work we have to do as white as European Americans in the European descended folk But that there is a level of Asi work together although at some point And and we don't get to call. I shopping. How that looks but ultimately like what's the point if we're not actually coming to places of a better place with each other you know so I I would? I would say that it's both I don't know that I would claim that it's either or and let me explain The end of slavery didn't happen without us. I'm I'm having both allies to open the eyes of people that the injustices that were happening And also people in power. You're taking a stand same with the civil rights movement and I think for us to continue down that path We have to go to those that are in power and because of the way history has happened in America That is predominantly white. And so I think that in order to dismantle the the system we have to go where the power is and typically you get better access inside. Let's just true So there are places that the white people can go to dismantle that system that unfortunately You know others are not welcome However I also think I think that we need to be really careful to not have Not to be just the white savior. We need the influence of others That are actually Dealing with all of the things that maybe we are even blinded to the reason. Why one of the big reasons we any that is? We will be amiss if we don't because because of the fact that we are not Not White there. There are things that we will not ever see or understand. I know I'm saying because we're not not white. There's a double negative. Sorry things that we will never understand through the lens of what we cannot we have not experienced and so I think we have to work together but I also think that We also need to use our so quote unquote privilege to do good and to dismantle evil In the systems that are set up I mean we we do you see that even even in bigger corporate structures or things like that there are things things that are safe. That should not be saving what I mean by that is when you are in white only white spaces there. There are times where people are racist and they are comfortable enough to let their racism shine that they will not let show when it's it's not the case and those are those are times to that because we have that privilege that we also need to to call that out and to hold that a accountable and to not make that safe into not make it. Okay because it's never okay so I think those are things that we we have to do. We have to take on that burden. Because it's it's it's just it. Here's the thing that I will say. When when you are taking on the burden like I I personally believe it's on it's on white people to fix the Shit libro button at the same time? I don't think it can't said this wild on in terms of politics like you don't get a gold star for believing believing the right things We were talking about politics. Yeah you don't get a gold star for for for those things and so people we when white people do what is right in the in the there are things that are just expected of right. You don't get that sorted. Yes and so when people do what is right after years of doing what is wrong. I don't know that we should deify them. So I am grateful to to Abraham Lincoln for free ostensibly freeing the slaves right. It was the right thing to do. You don't get gold fucking star for that shape as opposed to do that. Put the fire out. Forget I started it. I'm GONNA acknowledge you but I feel like there are a lot of people who do good things will come along after a lot of people have a Lotta shitty things and then they feel like hey I should get this recognition mission and so I think you used the word used term. Why Savior White right and so I think that that is? That's my issue if white people come along and say I'm going to fix what is broken because it is our responsibility because we broke it. Okay but if someone says Why people need to fix this because it is our responsibility because we broke it and Dan Selfie right while? I'm checking me out with these black kids in Africa on my trip right if that's if that's happening that's that's not really motivated that you have both phones and digital and people all of color leading the movements rick real a final thoughts on on on this question your thoughts. Gee I don't remember. Yeah you have people three hundred years of calling shotgun and all they can see is well from now John. I'M GONNA be in the back seat so they're only seeing it still tell people how to drive. Hey pretty much they cannot see that. Maybe maybe there's a middle seat that maybe everyone's be looking from the same position but they are so terrified of losing their their superiority already. There better view really screwed. We're screwed with that. You know I mean. That's my wife's listening today. So I can say that we need to have view on the show by the way you know sub game where there's a winner loser Cheryl shot up Cheryl. You need to come on our awesome sometime anyway continue. She's smart Goldman. We're there white people that are just afraid. That's that's fundamentally what it is the fear of losing something as opposed to the fear of being unequal out. Well and there is someone stoking that fire. I think it works into the advantage of certain people to have have poor white folks fighting with black folks if I might have. We're we're show to your point if I might have a nerd moment to plug a TV show. That is amazing using right. Now if you ever read the comic. Book Watchmen Watchmen now has a new show on. HBO AND IT is about racism period period. I'm listening to the listening to podcast right now with Damon Lindelof. WHO's famous for lost and I believe the the for another forgotten the disappeared or whatever? It wasn't your I hope so on left. Oh yes well the beginnings of me Great Watch the show on the great stuff. But I'll oh yeah I get it but the show deals with the. The opening of the show is the bombing of Black Wall Street in Tulsa Oklahoma MHM where white people were so afraid of black people gaining wealth that they blew the city up in Detroit freeway through it. And and let's not forget the Burwood Wall talk about I talked about the Tulsa riots and whatnot on shot of history. So if you listen to another podcast. It's network. Listen to that as well. Yeah but either. Way Watch watchmen. They're dealing with this issue right now but you definitely see that Jackson. Hey white white people being very very very afraid of black people succeeding. Because they're afraid they're gonNA do to us what we did to them. You know the best part of that though is like read like a lot out of the reviews that are coming out and like tomatoes like this is so social justice warrior. I wish people would just let SCI FI and comic books be entertainment retainment and not be political that J. Paul though I'm like have you ever read a comic book. Did you not read. The original watchmen the X.. Men Out the civil rights what Sifi. Yeah Oh yeah yeah anyhow but thank you all to to everyone coming tonight. I know it's a tough conversation. Deep Conversation we go much further than we have already six minutes overtime. And we cut out a few questions but Thank you so much for being on the show tonight and also thanks so much for for listening to our listeners. Thanks so much for listening to leading question Calvin more make sure you check out our website leading questions now dot com or leading questions snow dot com where you can find all of our questions from this season and last season the last few seasons BIOS account about coming topics and even suggest topics to talk about Do you want to come out to your organization college Give us a email it. Hello at leading questions. Now Dot Com back to you true story every time you give that email address us and you say Hello I think in my mind I don't do it out loud but I think hello. Don't forget you can find us on apple podcast Google podcast soundcloud and of course a podcast trade APP. Please leave a review and we will see you next week when we're GONNA be talking epithet homophobic calculator.