8 Episode results for "Paul Mars"
Bonus episode: InSights Insights
"Atmospheric entry on my mark three two one mark on November twenty six two thousand eighteen. The insight mission arrived at Mars after a six month journey of over three hundred million miles. Tom Hoffman is the project manager for the mission on Landing Day for inside is in the Mission Control Center here at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory. Being the project manager. I was sitting in the back all the management from both JPL and NASA were sitting back there with me. It was a little bit nerve wracking. Because they're all looking at me for what's going on and you know I I don't don't know any better than what the call is in the room at any given time mission control is a complete misnomer in that particular situation because the reality is our planned time. Mm for entry descent and landing was a little over six minutes and one way light time at that. Point was eight minutes so whatever happened on Mars had already happened and we were observing serving the past. I wanted to actually have scenes of kittens. Put up on their monitors to keep everybody calm. But that was voted. Down in fact should now be experiencing the peak heating rates portions of the heat. Shield may reach nearly three thousand degrees Fahrenheit as it protects the lander from the heating environments as insight barrel down through the planet's atmosphere atmosphere. It had to perform every aspect of the landing maneuvers perfectly in order to arrive safely on the Martian surface inside his now traveling at one thousand meters per second insight rose to about four hundred meters per second it will deploy twelve meter diameter supersonic parachute. SUSHMITA CAR deputy project scientist for for insight was also in mission control that day hoping this mission would succeed where others had failed seen many disasters in my day and did not want to see one more unfold in front of me out to play out that tragedy and in front of the camera. You can help it. I'm not that that's the most important factor but it adds an extra element of anxiety once the radar locked on the ground and insight is about one kilometer above the surface. The lander will separate from on the back show and began terminal. Defense using twelve descent and Bruce Banner is the lead scientist on the mission. I was in the back row of the quote control room. We're all just watching and listening and hoping of nervous obviously but was pretty hopeful that everything would go well well. It's always the nagging fear back there. That things just blink out and you'd never hear from it again but we were getting to a tree and every time something good happens. That's one less thing or one hundred fifty fewer things that can go wrong and so she keeps on ticking off okay. Well that went well. There's fewer things that can go wrong now. Lander under seperation commanded out the two hundred meters gravity turn altitude four hundred meter three hundred written meters two hundred meters eighty meter sixty meters fifty meters confident philosophy. Thirty seven meters thirty meters twenty meters seventeen meters. Standing by for touchdown touchdown confirmed welcome to on a mission a podcast of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory. I'm Leslie Mullen back with a bonus episode for our first season. We're going to find out. What the insight missions been up to since it landed on Mars incites landing on the Monday after Thanksgiving gave the scientists a lot to be thankful for the mission they dreamed about and sweated over for so many years was was finally on Mars? Tom Says they even set a new record for the fastest successful landing. We came in at five minutes fifty three seconds so it was about thirty seconds seconds faster than we had planned. We spent a lot of time trying to figure out exactly why that was in. The short answer is the upper atmosphere of Mars was a little bit different than we had predicted. We came in a little bit quicker because it was a little less dense. As much as we've studied Mars and done things Mars we've only landed just a couple of handfuls at times understanding the atmosphere is still something we're trying to grapple with two suitcase sized spacecraft named Marco had flown behind inside all the way to Mars and and they played a vital role on landing day insight and the other landers and Rovers on the Martian surface generally can't send data back to Earth directly instead they send signals nose up to satellites that orbit. Mars says Mars Odyssey which then relay that information back to us for insights. Landing the MAR- satellites weren't positioned to the sentence that data right away so the Marquez acted as temporary relay stations as they flew past the planet Bruce says he was on the edge of his seat. Waiting for the mark is to send the first photo that insight took of its landing site on Mars within a couple of minutes. We started getting back that I picture from our ICCPR instrument context camera and that was super exciting. We've already jumped up and down in high five in hugged and stuff like that and then hustle back over to the console for the Image Processing Lead Highly Angle Justin mackey and I were hanging over her shoulder. And she was plugged into the feed for Marco which was still communicating mutating up to seven eight minutes after landing and then we started to get the image down it starts to fill in on one edge of the image and kind of moves across as they get a little a bit more a little bit more data and got sort of like the first tenth of the image and was just reddish muddy looking it just looked like static. And we're going now. Yeah well maybe this is going to be such a great picture and then the next strike came down and suddenly you can see the ghosts of the rock at the bottom of his and suzy saw that. Then we knew yes. This was real image. We have a picture from Mars and then the rest of it started filling in faster and faster than we could see the horizon and it was funny because just like I. We're kind of hanging over Halley's shoulder and as far as I knew everybody was off doing their thing in the room but later there's actually a photo that ended up in a lot of papers across that's the world and there's like a dozen people you'll crowded around behind us and I had no idea anybody else was there. It was just that little bubble with the three of US sitting here looking at a figure things Out But I think half the room was huddled behind us and I had no idea some would say the hardest part was over but the mission still had many hurdles to overcome for one thing. The solar panels had to open. We had to wait for about six or eight hours before we had confirmation to the solar panels was out now is the last nerve racking thing were on Mars safely safely but our batteries are only going to last for twenty four hours or so we went into a radio blackout. Once the Markos went out of range. We had to wait for Odyssey. Talk come back around for its communication passing over the lander to see whether the solar panels had deployed and so we had a little bit of a break where you had our press conference and AH also missed the press conference because my family was viewing the landing with the science team and then once we finished up at the mission control and I went and grabbed them. Bring them over the press conference. And and the Guard's going. Oh wait they don't have a press badge the can't let them in. I said well if they're not going going they're just doing their job but I wasn't in the mood to deal with bureaucracy at that point and so I kept on there looking around for somebody with the Authority to let these dangerous family we members into pressroom and I finally found one of the lab managers. Richard Cook. I said Richard. Can I bring my family and says well. Yeah of course so I actually walked in about three minutes minutes. I think before we had our press conference which was a big party in Bruce. Mannered is our principal investigator and we have been working together for the last seven years to make this a reality Jay. Bruce has been working for decades. And I'm so excited for him. They finally start getting his science back that he's been working so long. And so hard for so bruce. Well I can't tell you what a privilege it is to be up here today. People keep talking about my science and my my mission but this is really something that we're doing. Science team for the world after the solar panels opened inside could sit back and admire the view but the first photo from the ACC camera on the underside of the lander was heavily clotted with dirt or just the high pressure from the blast. Last of the landing rockets was enough to kind of force them dirt under the dust cover and so it was still almost as dirty when we opened the covers four which was a surprise. Ah disappointment but fortunately over the last months almost all that dirt come off the cameras. Now Gimme a really clear picture. Insights landing rockets also pushed a rock about about three feet or one meter that's the farthest we've seen a rock roll while landing spacecraft on another planet team members nicknamed the Golf Ball Sized Rock Rolling Links Stones Rock after the rock band. Sue says the blast of the landing rockets did more than just dirty a camera in Iraq the rockets doug some fairly deep holes on the lander they are about twenty centimeters so about eight inches but nothing actually out of the ordinary and it gives us a little window into the surface. What we saw was a layer an inch or so thick? It's commonly called d'Or crust and it's basically a region near the surface where there's been kind of cemented the grains together you see this of the desert too often because As you have a day night cycle atmospheres cycling in and out of the soil right and it helps introduce minute amounts of water things that can chemically cement things together so so. It's a common thing on Mars. We came down in exactly the terrain that had been predicted. Matt Golombek put another notch on his belt that he got a safe lander under down. And of course one of the first things you do when you start looking at the surface what we get right and what we get wrong. That's the Mars landing site dude. Himself Matt Golombek for me. Is the landing site dude. It's not just the knowledge that you landed safely. I need to see the picture as fast as possible to see whether or not the surface looks some semblance of what we expected until like and everybody else was jumping up and down when they got the telemetry that said that it had landed safely but I was waiting for the first picture which took a little bit later. And that's what I jumped up and down because it was pretty much what we expected insight needed a flat landing site that was relatively free of large rocks. The landing ellipse the area area were insight could possibly come down. Given all the uncertainties of parachuting through the atmosphere was a huge one hundred and thirty kilometers across about the size of Los Angeles Angeles. Exactly where you wind up in that giant ellipse matters. There are some big craters in that ellipse and not all that far away that that we could not have survived in if we had landed on the inner slope of one of those big craters. That would have been death for the lander when you select the site you say well that percent area covered by those dangerous places is less than one percent out of the total. And then you say okay we. We have a ninety nine percent chance of success. And that's kind of as good as you can do. So there's always gonna be things in the ellipse that are worse than others so then the question is how lucky were way right. It turns out. We came down in a rougher part of the ellipse and a rockier part part of the ellipse then. Most of the average of the elapsed bought the individual location where we came down. Was this smooth terrain which is like most of the rest of the ellipse. There was less than a degree slope at all on the surface in the area that we're most interested in there was no rock the bigger than a pebble. I mean they were teeny. It almost didn't matter so we're we lucky that we hit smooth terrain. No that was ninety percent of the ellipse. Were we lucky to have hit smooth terrain gene and that particular portion okay. But you know as they say if you're good then you're more likely to be lucky using using a robotic arm. The insight lander had a place instruments on the surface of Mars. A seismometers to listen for Mars quakes a windshield to cover the size monitor and and a heat flow probe to take the planet's temperature part of mats job was to figure out the best places to put them because insight landed in such a good spot with no big Iraq or slopes to complicate things that was relatively easy. It turned out we could put the instruments in the places that the instrument people most wanted them to be which was away from the landers and away from each other's to have minimal noise moving the instruments off the lander was a slow and careful process. Here's Tom Hoffman. Hoffman again before we can get to that step we have to test that so we have a testbed here at JPL that we set up to look pretty much exactly like Mars or so. We practiced make sure or that. We actually fully understood redoing before we try to Mars. Because you don't really get a second attempt so did it up taking us about eighty seven. Sol's we call days on Marhsall. Seems like taking three elements and putting onto the surface. Mars shouldn't take eighty seven days. We wanted to be sure that we're doing things safely at carefully. So it did take us a fair amount of time to get that done. Their robot arms grapple hand was designed to pick up each instrument by a small lollipop shape structure sticking up out of their tops. We we call those. The grapple hooks basically there the point where the robotic arms grapple grabs and. That's what we have to lift it within is not a very large structure. I'm sure it's pretty thin. It's thinner than a pencil but it is made out of titanium so it's pretty strong but after we had launched we had brought a flight spare seismometers so something that's built exactly like the flight unit but we didn't fly here to jpl in the process of doing some very simple testing we snapped off the scrapple Apple Hook and so that was a big scare for us. Because we're thinking if that happens on Mars mission isn't going to work and and that that would be a total disaster having this ten dollar part caused the whole mission not to work after months of investigations. They were able to figure out what caused the thin stem grapple grapple hook to break in the testbed. We actually had a little bit of a nick in it from some of the tooling and that created a stress point and stress. Point is what broke and we're able to show by looking looking at the procedure and talking to the person who built all of them that that one was a little bit different than the other one and then we went through the process of building a whole bunch more of them using both processes processes and tried to break them and it turns out that I think the one that broke was just really really bad because even the other ones where we tried to make them bad and break and we couldn't break. I mean we Kinda got got lucky that we had one bad one in. That was the one that didn't fly. It ended up not being that big of a deal but we did spend a couple of months thinking really hard about it between the time we launched in the time we landed and trying to prove to ourselves at everything was okay and thinking well even if it isn't okay. There's not much we can do other than try anyway anyway. There's any number of other problems that we have had to. Each of the devices are secured to the deck with basically little bolts that have to activate in release. It's like a phase change material basically thermal expansion reheat it and it expands and then breaks it and then you can lift up the device. Even though we've done lots of testing of making making sure that they release every time you just never know something could get cockeyed in there. We did a lot of testing on earth but earth is not Mars. You always hold your breath whenever you do something for the first first time for sure but in the end dale worked great. One of the most delicate operations was placing the seismometers the sensitive instrument that would measure even the slightest vibrations nations caused by quakes on Mars. When we put the seismometers down one of the things that we needed to do was activate this mechanism which allowed the tether to be we've released from holding onto the seismometers? Both the seismometers and the heat flow physical properties package tied back to the lander with these tethers. And the tethers. There's are what provide the power to each of those instruments and then in turn send commands and then also received the data coming back from the instrument so tether there is a little bit of a misnomer there actually fairly thick heavy and hard to move almost printed circuit boards so pretty stiff. They're not at all flexible. People like your iphone tether. They're much much bigger lot more signals and kind of a little bit of a pain. I frankly because even the little bit of perturbation of the tether shaking in the wind or just even expanding temperature-wise dislike nanometer creates a huge huge annoy source on our seismometers. So you create this whole system to make the tether so that wouldn't be pushing against the size monitor. We have a little loop in there. That's basically annoy shunt. Dont instead of pushing directly on the seismometers any little vibrations or thermal noise or whatever it is pushing against a spring and so one of the things we had to do is actually pull all the tether away from the size. Modern towards the lander which was not particularly easy. took us a bunch of tries to get just pulled back enough because the problem that we had is if we pulled it too much. There's no way to push it back. We kind of had to sneak up on pulling it a little bit in fact the very first time we try to pull it. We didn't move at all second any time we try to pull it. We moved at like barely and then the third time we moved at just about enough in the end that ended up taking us about two weeks all told it took about two months to stat up all the elements of the size Mamata. Bruce says it took another month to make sure it was working correctly. We were busy that whole time. There's a handful of things you have to do. Each thing takes preparation. And then you have to check it out afterwards and we're always trying to make sure everything is safe. We don't WANNA be swinging robotic arm around run into the antenna or punch a hole in the thermal protection of the seismometers so we checked everything in the test faciliate. JPL each one of those was round the clock preparation and work by the team to get it done and so that was an exhausting three months to get the seismometers working. It was worth every minute because the seismometers seismometers has been performing amazingly. Well I mean we're getting seismic data at a precision that is in some parts of their frequency bands. Thousand Thousand Times better than anything has been done on the earth because of the background noise on the earth. No matter where you go on the earth you have a certain amount of vibration just from the storms and the ocean and the waves beating against the shoreline. You can go to the center of Kansas and you're still getting a pretty big signal from ocean turbulence but we don't have any oceans on March so we're actually seeing vibrations that have never been seen on the earth because I can never get that quiet on the earth and so this is new territory for seismology in a technical sense as well as in a geographical sense as has noted in episode two Apollo astronauts had put seismometers on the moon which also doesn't have oceans. The Moon seismometers were very similar. But that was using sixties and seventies technology so they actually got some noise that was as low as ours but over much more narrow frequency band seismic signals have information at all different frequencies and all the different frequency bands have different kinds of information higher frequencies tend to die out with distance. Just like certain sounds you hear from long distance like if you hear thunder from a long distance away is just a rumble. If you hear thunder up close you hear the crack. You hear the high frequencies as well so the hyphen season Seismology Allergy. Tell you about things that are close in but for more distant quakes several hundred miles to several thousand miles away. You're seeing lower and lower lower frequencies as the dominant contributor. And so you want size. MOMBER that measures all the different frequencies all the way down to some frequencies that may be takes almost. Listen our for an oscillation to finish. which is the frequencies that which the whole planet vibrates or rings in episode? Two Bruce had explained how quakes cause earth to ring like a clear clear bell but the moon to crash like a Gong Guests that Mars would have more of a bell ring like Earth. There's the ring. But there's still some of that scattered Kinda hissy stuff going on the signals. That we're looking at are kind of halfway in between so on the Earth if you get a fault fault or get a crack and then just leave it alone. For a few hundred million years there's water that seeps through at minerals crystallize in the cracks and you get a kneeling healing of these cracks and so after some amount of time another wave goes through there. It doesn't even see that crack anymore. Just passes passes through on the moon. It's very dry. And so those cracks maintain sells for hundreds of millions or even billions of years. There's and so there's lots of things that reflect and scatter the seismic waves and so when you scatter a wave instead of going straight from point A. to point it be it bounces around takes drunken walk and finally you know maybe ends up back at point B but instead of going one hundred miles in a direct route it may have taken to three hundred miles to get to where you are and so it comes in really late. So we've got moon quake signals that last four an hour or more whereas the same size quake on the earth with last four maybe fifteen or twenty seconds and so we're seeing some of the same type of scattering processes we think on Mars as we saw the moon and especially for the close events so we think that the outer portions of the Martian crust maybe the upper ten or twenty miles might be more fractured and less a kneeled than the earth. which tells us that? Possibly the Martian crust is drier than the Earth's crust. Although that's still speculative at this point the few events we've had from farther away don't seem to be quite so scattered a few events from a over a thousand kilometers away. Those words are dipping down into the upper mantle. So we think that deeper into the crust or into the mantle. Things don't seem to be so fractured up Marzieh's between the Earth and the moon a lot of different ways and it looks like this is just one more way see that it really lies on that line. Even the picture of Mars is just starting to emerge bruce's happy to be seeing even small Mars. Quakes again we. We didn't start measuring at a level that we could detect them until about saul one hundred and then we went for another month with seeing nothing. which was it's a little concerning so we started watching and we're waiting for our first Mars quake and we're waiting? We're waiting after after about a month was kind of looking are watching sing. And when you're going for weeks without seeing anything you start to get a little bit fearful earful that well do. We really know what we're doing here or really gonNA see something. So First Mars quake that we saw was on Sol. One Twenty eight and it turns out. It's very unusual Joie. We haven't seen another one quite like that. Since most of the energy was at high frequencies and since then most of our quakes have been much lower frequency. Since then we've been getting about one or two seismic events per week. Most of very small earth they would probably be magnitude wonder. `and to were actually only able to see very small Mars quake signals for part of the day. There's a lot of wind activity and so the small quakes get drowned out by that north. We've found out very early on bet. The pattern of atmospheric noise is very repeatable every day eh so about six o'clock at night it gets very quiet and then around midnight. The wind comes up in from midnight to about six or seven in the morning. The wind's blowing very steadily. Then the sun comes up and you start getting turbulence and the noise just goes up quite a bit and then it just keeps on going until about sundown again and we can see that each and every day so now we know the window to spend our time watching Paul Mars quakes one of the Nice things about Earth's seismology. Is You get dozens of Nice earthquakes every day. We get all excited when an earthquake happens. But most of the earth is unpopulated. There's oceans there's wilderness and when earthquakes occur out there nobody but seismologists knows about and so- seismologists can spend a few months collecting being data. And you'll have a few hundred signals to work. From in lots of information there on Mars the activity is probably something like a factor of thousand and less so instead of having several hundred quakes over the course of a month. We have a handful of maybe a half a dozen and so so we have to wait a lot longer for the number of quakes. You have this giant thousand piece jigsaw puzzle and every week we get one piece so we have after. You've really really patient and we have all these pieces that don't fit together yet and just have to assume that as we get more pieces will be able to start making the connection. It's funny I start thinking about what it must have. been like to be a seismologist back in the early nineteen hundreds when people were first starting to piece together you know what was going on the earth but for those first ten or twenty years of the twentieth century you look at Seismic Graham and just scratch your head. What's going on underneath there and we sort of take take it for granted you open up a textbook? There's a cross there's a mantle. There's a core. And they show you nice clean seismic grand with all these wiggles than this corresponds to this path. But somebody had to figure that out from scratch and we're having to do that on Mars now in. It's not as easy as it looks. The weather station on insight helps rule out how a breeze or an air pressure event shakes the seismometers by amplifying the vibration of insight shaking in the wind. You can get a sense of the weather on Mars. Plus as kind of a bonus were actually able to see dust devils in the weather the data we have the pressure data and steering slowly during the day and suddenly it'll drop about several Pascal and interpret that as a dust devil passing very close to us and it's like a hurricane when you have super low pressures in the eye of a hurricane. You have very low pressures in the center of industrial because it's essentially little vacuum cleaner. Where the air from the surface of being sucked up higher into the atmosphere and we can actually see that in the seismic data as well because as the dust devil is sucking up the air is actually like a vacuum cleaner pulling on the ground as well and so we can actually see the tilt of the ground as a double goes by and so we've seen hundreds of those things now and by doing that? We actually get some information about the surface of Mars because the amount that a tilts is related to how Steph off the surfaces that this very stiff. It doesn't tilt very much if it's relatively bendable it tilts a lot and so we're actually starting to measure the elastic nick properties of the upper few meters of the Martian surface by looking at these dust devil signals if a Martian dust devil flew right on top of insight. What are the odds? It would mess up the lander. We were actually worried about that. We have our solar panels out there and they're relatively fragile. They're on pretty skinny. Little spars than actually if you look at the biggest dust devils that have been seen on Mars and you combine them with the highest winds that you see that would actually. That'd be enough to rip the panels right off our spacecraft but statistically that's extremely unlikely and so we beat up our solar panels channels as much as we could within the limitations of mass and volume that we had to work with and we believe that we can survive any likely lead dust devil or even some pretty unlikely ones and so far none of them have bothered small but that's always one of the worries in the back of my mind that some really big dust devil comes by and aw off our solar panels go to some place you know. We're not in Kansas City. Another other instrument on insight called rise is measuring how much Mars wobbles as it orbits the Sun. The wobble of the Martian poll is tied very closely. He to the activity of the core will amount that it actually wobbles back and forth depends on how much mass there is in the core sloshing around we do at least the outer part of the cores ars liquid. So that's working together. With seismology to look at the deep structure of the planet all the instruments on inside aim to help figure out what Mars is like deep inside quakes wake said the result of underground activity a Mars. We think that probably the basic process is shrinkage of the planet as cools. But it's it's more complex because there's volcanoes going on there may be a convection in the mantle that's pushing up some areas and pulling down some other areas and maybe even dragging some things laterally on the earth we have plate tectonics that her moving the plates around either moving past each other at places. Like the Sandra's fault sown or moving them apart from each other at spreading ridges or together at mid ocean trenches in the end even on the earth the forces do plate tectonics talks are from the cooling of the planet plate tectonics driven by heat bringing up hot mantle material to the mid ocean ridges where it cools roles as it spreads and then the cold slab zinc back down into the earth cooling off interior. And so this is just the way that the earth gets rid of its heat. Every planet is a heat engine. What we're really trying to do is understand? The various different heat engines. That are going on. Earth has one that were pretty familiar with this. Got Lots of heat. It's a high performance zengin. The moon might be a car in the junk yard is not really running very well anymore and Mars might be a little bit more of a Volkswagen bug or something like about incites instrument to measure. The heat of Mars is engine got stopped in its tracks right out of the starting gate. Eight sue says the heat flow probe also known as the mole ran into trouble. The first day at tried hammering itself into the ground S.. Started going great guns for about ten to fifteen centimeters and then slowed noticeably thing that we noticed right away is that the sports structure that is holding holding them all in place until it gets underground moved which was a surprise. Wasn't just hammering itself vertically down into the ground at tipped tilted and was pushing against the side it's support structure. Scientists didn't see this happening in real time after the command to hammer had been sent to the mall. The results didn't come back until much later yet. Because we have to send the data up to an orbiter orbiter has ascended back to a deep space network station somewhere on the earth and then it has come Jesus so all that takes in the best possible case it would be a couple of hours almost never do get rapidly usually. It's the next day that you get the data that's in fact that's why everything takes so long because it's basically two days to upland commands execute them down link them and then analyze them on the earth to build new commands 'em cinema looking over the data from that first hour of drilling. It looked like the mole had run into trouble about fifteen minutes. Then we learned that it went down about thirty five centimeters and then it just stopped progressing. 'em We try to second hammering session as well because we weren't clear about what kind of resistance it was is actually meeting. We've of course tried to anticipate every possible scenario and test them out in the lab and among the scenarios we've tested is what if it encounters a small mall rock. And we've seen is that if it's a small rock if it keeps hammering it can effectively push it to the side and keep going have also big rocks and what happens then the case if Iraq has a slow from its top the Malkin actually kind of skipped her around the side. It has a big flat rock than we have no recourse. We were hopeful that perhaps it was a small rock that we can push aside or break as we've seen a lab so he's I try a second hammering session but that did did not progress any further. We basically went into problem solving mode. Chart figure out what could be causing us. One idea was the tether that connected the mole all to the lander had gotten bound up inside the support structure that the mole was housed in. There are these friction springs and basically what their job is is to hold them all vertical while it's dropping out of the support structure and to give it resistance because has a hammer. You've hit a hammer. You know. Hammer has recoil right and so you might think that the hardest time is like when you get deep and you're pushing against more weight of soil but actually the hardest part is getting fully into the ground and that's because of this recoil. We rely on friction from the soil that it's moving through on the sides to stop it from bouncing back upwards and so these frictions brings assist with damping that recoil while the mole all is still in the support structure and so one idea was that may be the mole was tilting and it had somehow snagged the tether inside these friction brings if the Taylor wasn't holding them all back then. Perhaps the Martian soil was to blame another scenario is at the soil hadn't collapsed in around the mall and it made a a whole all and didn't have any resistance to that recoil so which is able to bounce freely backwards. We thought that the soil would just flow in based on our understanding understanding of the properties the Martian soil. So basically we got busy in the lab and brought out all the spare hardware that we had and tried out a whole bunch of things to try to assess assess what we thought was most likely and people pretty much ruled out. The idea of the tether. Getting snagged in these frictions brings eventually. We came to the conclusion vision that we really can't help the mole at all unless we lift the support structure and get a peek underneath to see what is going on. So in our test sped the practice picking up the sport structure with robotic arm and lifting it. We did it in series A. Steps because the risk was that we would on the tether and actually lift the more out of the ground that was fear right so we did it in little small steps. You know you send the man take pictures. The data back analyze slow process and and so it was clear that we will not pulling out of the ground which is good and so through a series of steps. We ended up placing sport structure off to the side of where the mole was stuck into the ground with a support structure off to the side. Insights camera could get a good look at what trouble the mole had gotten itself into so it revealed the pitch the malls roughly an inch in diameter. And there's a whole that several mole diameters wide. We've taken a ton of images at different time. Today's the lights at a different angle and so forth into the bottom of the pit and it's about five inches is not super deep clearly. The soil around the mole has gotten compressed. Because you know where's us well got that soil is patch it either at the bottom of the pit in front of them all off to the sides in the end what we decided to do who was tried to fill in that pit and try to increase the friction on the sides of the mall to damp out the recoil. See if that is the solution to getting it moving again so again took love testing and analysis to make sure we could carry out a push on the soil without hurting either the mole of the arm the scoop on the end of the arm and it has the knuckle the flat and the tip of the scoop so the first thing we did was push that flat scoop against the side of the pit so you just kind of pushing it would collapse it. Fortunately was not clouds it and the next attempt was to take the knuckle of the scoop and push that against the side and again not a lot of motion of the soil straightforward strategy would be to scoop up soil in dump it in the pit well in theory could kind of scrape soil. It's probably easier to do that then to push the soil but it's very challenging. Because when we he placed the support structure on the ground our goal was to put as far as way from the lander as we could because we wanted to keep the thermal affect of the lander as removed as possible so we really stretched the arm out as much as possible initially so to be able to reach beyond the pit Pitt and scoop in. That's super challenging just from the standpoint of the arm and also there's a juror crust who don't actually think it's that hard er be able to crumble it in your fingers. We're certainly hopeful that we can use scooped truncheon and kind of break it into pieces and allow it to start falling into the pit and getting some more of that looser material and her niece to start filling in the hole to the frustration of trying to get them. All going is magnified by how easy it could be to fix six. If we could just go stick a finger on the back of the mall you know it would probably be enough resistance to going again. Really doesn't take a huge amount of resistance the to help it move forward because a recall is much smaller than the forward motion. So it's mother possible scenarios are trying to put the scoop on the edge of the mole or on the back just pushing where the tether is pushing on the top where the other is the last last ditch effort because the tether never designed heavy pushed from the back and lows connections are they're not delegate but the interface interface between the tether and the mole has always been a challenge. Because you WANNA keep it sealed so that the dirt doesn't in there but you don't WanNa Pinch the tether and you don't want it to have too much force from the hammering point forward so that's kind of our Hail Mary. Let's just push in the back and see what happens and seeping begin to move forward. That simple act is tough to do with the robot arm. That's a tricky thing. The arm was never intended to be extremely precise in its measurements and it was never designed to push against anything you know and so basically you commanded to be against the ground and it will kind of keep that forced forced for a little while but it doesn't maintain a push it's just basically holding itself in that location is a different than in pushing right and so we think we can time and so there'll be some resistance. All the moles hammering but not for many hammer strokes so we can imagine. That's very painstaking. Plus his cousin does move forward than it to move the farm fourtou but more more and using the arm takes power. And as the season progresses que- have less solar power available. At some point we could get the Situation where using the arm is impacting our ability to take seismic data. We don't rush and do something that's going to damage them all and just ruin any chance of getting into the ground but at the same time we can't keep doing it forever to save the mole. They must bury the Mall. Tom says the engineers have relished coming to the malls rescue. All the engineers ears were really excited because engineers generally either want to build stuff or fix stuff and we'd already built something and it wasn't working so now he had a chance to fix it. We're GONNA try yeah to see if we can get some dirt into the whole. I called the mole hole or the pit of doom. We can get around almost anything including concrete as long as it's not flat so hopefully we're not hitting any flat concrete. It's a fun fascinating problem to work because if you think about it. You're trying to do something nobody's ever done before. Nobody's ever done anything other than scratched the surface this March literally. And we're trying to hammer into it and we have no idea where we're hammering into. We're trying to figure out okay. Having no idea. We're hammering into. How are you going to get around whatever it is? We don't know about and everybody who's ever dug a hole in their backyard and encountered rocks has infinite numbers of things that they can tell you about in terms of what you should be doing. But we don't have a shovel a we can't look in the hole that well with our one camera only limited things we can do with our arm which never intended do any of the things we're starting to do now in terms of breath scratching or punching or hacking or chopping the soil. Tom Says insight situation is the opposite of what they expected. The initial concern actually really was. Oh it's a filled in impact craters going to be just really loose sand for the seismometers concern. Was it's GonNa absorb a lot of the seismic energy because as it goes through the it's not nearly as good as being on concrete as it turns out. We're probably closer to like concrete than sand on the flip side. We thought Oh this is GonNa be Great Mole Vis GonNa go through this like nobody's business snus because it's just sand. It's going to be like a knife through better. Even the geologists looking at where we landed knowing what they know about the surface of Mars we now know we don't know that much about the surface ars and certainly we don't know that much about underneath the surface of Mars. That's the interesting part about exploration when you're on even earth or another planet but when you try to do something for the first first time somewhere else inevitably something is going to surprise you. Something's GonNa be different even if they can't get the mole to dig down into. Mars insight is learning learning a lot about the planet's interior and the team expects to do so for at least another year. Tom Says what we learn about. Mars is just the beginning even just thinking about how we dug on to Mars and it was different than we expected. Something as simple as that you can think about all the different ways other planets could be so different than what we expect because we look around on earth and there's lots of different places there's icy places there's all okay knows there's underwater trenches that doesn't mean that those are all the same everywhere in fact if anything. I think we've learned just from our little digging experiment that more likely played the not things are a lot more different than they are similar on other planets. There's so much out there we still want to explore. But for Bruce. He's been working for over thirty years this to send us is Mama to Mars. Nothing compares to incite. Even though you're working towards this in you're hoping for it on some level you think probably knuckle now while you gotta try but especially after years and years you have to come to terms with the possibility that just might not happen then it happens and here we are at Mars. I mean the things that I've been dreaming about as possibly happening here. They are and of course once. You're there it's exciting and it's amazing and you just walk walk outside and look at the sky and Fine Mars and think about your spacecraft up there and one way. Many of us are up there on Mars within sight. The lander has a microchip inscribed with two million names of people from all around the world. Go to Mars dot NASA Dot Gov for more details you can also visit that website to learn more about incite. I get Mars weather updates and see all the raw images from the mission. The next season of this podcast will be about a whole new topic. Come come join US soon on a mission a podcast of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory
023 Trendjacking Marketing and Public Relations w/ Paul Maher
"Thanks for pressing play. This is Christopher lockhead and we have a very special episode for you today from time to time on lockhead on marketing we will bring on a guest just to go deep on a critical topic today. My friend Palmar founder of positive marketing in the UK and we pop the hood on a secret black black art of marketing PR communications and media called a trend jacking. And it's predicated on the on the insight that the news loses happening anyway so you might as well be in it and so we talk about how to hijack a trend in the media so that you and your company can be part of the news. Paul and I have been friends and worked on and off together for over twenty years and his firm positive is the winner of the Sabre Award for the best. I earned media agency all of the Europe Middle East and Africa. So He's no joke and I would say he's the category King of trend jacking being as an idea as a category of marketing execution. NPR execution now. Our friends at spunk. Are The category Queens and kings of big data. Data and spunk. Helps you bring data to everything every question every decision and every action checkout S- plunk SP L. U. N. K. DOT dot com slash D to e as in data to everything. That's spunk dot com slash D to e and my dear friends at Oracle Nets. We'd want to help you. turbocharged charged the growth of your business. Go to net sweet dot com slash different. And while you're there you'll be able to set up a free one hour growth review with an expert in your industry history that's net sweet dot com slash different as well While you're br breeze reason while you're breezing around the Internet checkout lockhead Dot Com to ages no K for the show notes from this episode and you'll also find the show notes. Paul Mars seven secrets of trend. Jacking now now. Hey Ho. Let's go. This is long head on marketing. The podcast that helps you develop a lens for what makes legendary marketing legendary posted by Christopher lockhead three times. CMO Godfather category designed and a high school dropout. The Marketing Journal calls and one of the best minds in marketing and the economist calls off putting to some alright search is a special toolkit that those of us who spent a little bit of time doing media relations in content needs to deploy critical times trying to build categories. And the thing I love about this idea is it's kind of a secret black art right because most people when they do. Pr They're trying to create news all by themselves and trend. Jacking is all all about. How do we take what's happening in the news and use that attach ourselves to that and use that as an advantage to become an expert to become? I'm known to position ourselves effectively. Yeah that's right so all of you is. The News happens anyway. Wanted you make it. Yeah why not be attached to it right. It's it's very very powerful idea and I I remember distinctly the first time you and I had this idea. Yeah we were in London. A starbucks are not open to long ago his early chains and you and I were in a Radi London starbucks fuming because there was a merger acquisition in space that we needed to react to you and we really seriously worried that we were going to be out after and I'll never forget You and I came up with a point of view about the acquisition and you and your pr team got on the phone and we found the reporters who were writing about the acquisition and we took time to educate them on in our our category in space. And before you knew it. The media was writing stories like this acquisition happened because of thus. Because you're afraid of US exactly to annoyed guys. It eleven starbucks changed the strategy of multi not billion dollar management consultancy. How likely is that? Yeah we literally hijacked their acquisition news. And that's why we call it tragic thing right And it all. It is now becoming attendance this widely used. I just said some on Germany that Issues jumping the idea is to take a trend. That's GONNA is happening anyway. Senate your involved role that like a car Jack. Whatever you WANNA call it? So that's why it's told transacting. Yeah and the the fun thing for me is a side. Note is a lot of ways. You become the godfather of trend jacking because that day you and I had an the idea for how do we. How do we attach ourselves to this news and make sure that you know we're not being out positioned in the media and now It's it's it's a practice area. NPR In media relations in. You're the godfather of it. Thank you so so I think positive tape. which is the the the the these days than the company I found it? We are known in the market for being aggressive trackers. This is not something you can have a Play around with you need to be on your game. And they're all certain rules the shopping up. If you tested and practice an unequally if you want to be a scattered out early life you know goby a lawyer all right. Let's get into the seven secrets of Chen trend. Jacking number one be positive. So what what do you mean by this all right. So like having a view that you not. Newsworthy is the antithesis assist trend checking the news happens anyway. Why not be in it and if you WanNa Lita category you'd better be making the news because every single news story got is directing getting tools a future state that you want Degree today and if you let other people do that for you. I don't awesome number to Be Proactive what do you. What do you do provoke insist? It'd be proactive. Balking dyslexic can't read the list. He provocative you're the king. So what do you mean by provocative ball so like the definition of nervous Randall. For somebody they also came up with this is the definition used is while someone else does not want you to know right so clearly. There's a lot of vested interests management consultancy famished remained nameless. A little bit sort of Frenchie guessing that these guys didn't want anybody raining on that big day in the sun when they had a massive acquisition guard. So you have to say to you. So how am I going to get the attention of the media. And the way that the media doesn't make it. It's a blessing I'm here in London is is particularly British. NEATER is they liked flood these days. They like tech clash. You need to get creative and find out what it is. Somebody else does not want you to tell the media. That's one of the books and the media loves controversy And so you you sort of have to be willing to mix it up a little if you're gonNA hijack a train don't you. You really do some of the examples that we use You know mergers and acquisitions as we said that didn't work out you know Outages is but there's also that this is an accounting piece. The the goes there a little bit more obvious so when it's more obvious. You need to be more provocative right. There's no point unsigned. We've got a great black Friday story flea gives a shit right. You need to be the most provocative yukons so it might be the black Friday since the donut man or it might be the time when you want it takes over another and you need to be provocative because Orienting US just cut it. Yeah I remember back in the day. You and I did a little bit of work for Check the the The Book Rental Company for College Students. That's now expanded much beyond that category and and we came up with this idea. I remember you and I are brainstorming about it. which was they were going to do? A big back to School campaign and of course there's lots of PR around back to school every career and you had this awesome idea. How do we hijack back to school? and You created a day called textbook Tuesday. which was the day that that you needed to get your text? Books rented by and so they hijacked back to school press by Inventing Day called textbook Tuesday and it made a huge difference difference in the launch of the business. Nothing another great example. Chris and we do use specific trend Jack Technique several times so for instance we have the GPO coming over here which is a data regulation We would for company WHO's doing a anti anti malware still getting exfiltrated so we knew do. How long did average zero day exploit means out on your hats before you actually find out is and then we backed up from when the GDP wasn't said if you we do not know on this specific day whether or not you've been hacked you'll scrutiny gonna be in for a big fine we call? 'cause he was exfiltration recall that X. Day things like that were very well with the media. Yes there you're hijacking You know the change in the regulations in our privacy in Europe exactly which would turn out to be a big thing but the only thing he can the only way you do that is to become a bit of a unused junkie. Yeah that's the next part of the the next part of the process right predict predict. It's called a news cycle for reason. Of course you used to be a journalist so so what do you mean by a predict and sort of grab hold of the news cycle so you can have the best friend in the world and the most talented bunch should feel professionals that you can afford ready to go but timing is everything. It's called a new cycle for a reason. There are limits in time and you can inject yourself is the conversation a moment in time we will just get a lot of media. Thank you dumps yesterday. All these days. That was two hours ago. You need to to be ready to go but you need to get into the story at the right time and that means looking at where the story developing find out who's places where the stories bubble up. You know we talk about ready earlier and twitter and places like that and some of the sort of citizen Genu- general isn't that you see these days you can see the stories developed before they go mainstream just just as they go mainstream. That's when you WanNa hit it. That's the top of the news cycle. It you need to know that by observing your target so to speak and hitting the Roy yeah fascinating and I also there's some pattern recognition. We can use here right. Typically when a story breaks there's there's just the the facts about it. XYZ happened right. And there's there's little color background and so the press does the the breaking news piece but then they go looking for depth right they go looking for commentary from people in the industry are associated with it and they want to do some more backstories stuff and so the story begins to unfold. And so what I love but what you're saying is your journalists. Soon as story breaks. They're going to write something but then they want background and commentary in these kinds of things and if you're the executive team that's right there as the story is developing that NEWSCORP. aww cycle is evolving. You actually play right into what they need at that point in time. Yeah I'm thinking about it right here in the UK. There's a single today's program that leads the news. Everybody in the in the news media listened to back up to die. The guy's the newspaper stopped figuring out what they're going to produce a Dan US meeting thing which is going to go in the evening papers which time the lunchtime as is developed stories. Drop some stories around other stories. Just gotTa figure out when the right time to do. That is an as a- friends in the hedge funds of hedge funds. Recite all the time. Look for that. Next ounce of the bull see that's the prediction addictions skill that you need and be done. Have it in house or you know have any DNA you know. There's lots of out near the will of agencies insolvency who do Yep all right the next step prepare prepare prepare and so Maybe explore that a little bit. What are we preparing to do as we get ready to trend Jack here right soon so you WANNA do? Is You want to be like done a little bit of game playing about that bounce of the ball so you know often stories can break two ways when you get to like advance level transacting equally prepared for both eventualities. Let me give you an example so we have apprenticed currently the Medical Boris Johnson controversial figure. And nothing you guys in the states about about controversial leaders but he recently had a newspaper to two zero t versions of an opinion because he has a regular column. And this was about whether or not we're GONNA leave your like not an insignificant piece in you supposed to joining he hedged his bats and he wrote one piece that was he's very pro brexit as we call it a one piece which is very negative just so when the news broke he was ready to drop the piece out was was brexit. And if you haven't got found out for his technique you would've looked like a era but he's Sorta gave the game away a little. That's what I mean by. Prepare his look at the eventualities. CARLOTTI's get you figure out your angles spokespeople out channels. You can bring to the policy on. Just get ready to go and you said a very important thing in their. Get Your quotes ready to go right. Yeah sounded like ready totally an and so you know what you're looking for their with their spokespeople folks who've you can like give good quotes as we say But also you the sort of people that will give a range inch of quotes because we said On many ways so you need to be ready for that and you need to have like other materials may have articles that you you WanNa do another great one at the open letter that you want to send out like Google does something you want to address them seed you send them in Atlanta which lunches entirely is money some techniques to the guests you so ready prepared to strike I remember years ago We were a trend jacking an acquisition in the industry that had taken a long time and it was a little bit Sort of Problematic and it was playing out over time in the media. And I don't know if you remember this so you created this quote for me to tell the the press that watching this acquisition was like watching two porcupines mate. Okay okay well you kind of the beautiful things they need to be memorable. Well it was highly quotable right and so it ended up. I don't know several hundred papers because the other beauty not of this of course is if you can talk to a wire service Reuters Bloomberg associates. AP things along those lines you might talk to one reporter. One pithy quote like that could end up in several hundred newspapers around the globe. Absolutely those those why. Why says his are amazing? And they're all sort over here in Europe they are country specific. And you bring on another interesting based friend of mine's got a company that deploys freelance writes likes to citizen journalists in places like Wolfson's and these these days the newsdesks need that comment quick. So you need to be both very provocative and in the case of those guys that are on the ground you need to be in the right place at the right time and be crowds. Timing is not just a quote as the Chinese the Combo the brings the goodness well. And this is something I find a lot of executive. CEO's don't understand right if if there's news happening and we WANNA trend Jack it and there's a writer on deadline in the news broke three hours ago and were in this example maybe using our CEO Our CEO has to be willing to a come out of her meeting and re swizzle her counter a little bit to talk to the press that day because their need for people to comment is going to be over in six hours and so You know it's it's not like a standard press briefing where you can schedule it. A few weeks out when the news breaks if you're trying to be in in it executives were being spokes. People have to be willing to be highly accessible highly accessible to think about the And yet the natural time delays in news breaking in America visits the An you're by if we're speaking up four o'clock doc. In the afternoon in Newsday we've got a story and we can't get the exactly as o'clock in the morning California time. We have a problem because the first time he has a foam agendas Dennis you with hundreds of inbound calls a day. I know what's going on with the news. The first person he hits me with something credible. I'm GONNA use that and the very next I. It hits me okay. No matter how good the quote is useless as yesterday's fish and chip paper so you really need to be on it. And so that's why. That's that's why we're saying before about having this free kind payrolls and being predictive way where the news is gonNA bounce stocks to secret now number six six be pragmatic original but ready to flex your angles What is happening? Paul right so Even with so you know the the best and most talented Consulting Agency folks on handed the most talented in house team and thinking through everything you want to think through. It's it's it's not like science right. It's still a little bit of It may be that a story breaks and people turning it in a way that you didn't see. Yeah I like it might be that. There's a on an issue with the with the retailer and then it all goes from being a piece of the problem with the supply chain into something consumer you have to be able to flip your angle and be even walk That he stopped he started with so in other words would as well has being in the moment. You need to stop flexing pretty quickly and that probably will live interaction between the wheels prisoners and who was bringing that news to the the media So one of the things that we that we do is editor open license. So you can plant something like a time bomb. If you will that will blow when needed so in other words you can say to any company wants to you disagree with what you said just putting this on recco. Oh and the whole reason we do that is so we can go back and pick it up late. So an example. Would you be would be Ashley Madison. database the adult dating site that blew up and we mentioned that is one of our clients and settler this story we think the fat. You're inside the security. Not very good for you to come on this and for reasons that were pretty obvious. They said nuanced talk. Say we don't want anything to do with this so we said okay. Would you told the soul. We went away and wrote something up is we were conscious of this second bounce of the ball and the second bounce of the bull was yes. It's been hot and now the databases for free on the incident at that point once only original analysis going out we could rid ourselves instance stories insight okay. Would you like to know how this is actually done. And then it becomes an analysis piece and be ready and we have flex when we were going we would. It has been some fascinating so even a story like that where it's a super hot story but its potentially negative to your brand hold back ACA little let the first one or two news cycles go and then come in in this case with a how they might have sort of a Dan protected themselves. So this didn't happen exactly Yeah so you. There's a lot of this is why enjoy the game so much. And why are you interested in tragic in an feel that it's a good weapon for them to deploy for that category. Spend a lot of time in the news cycle cool and figuring out probabilities of other stories breaking out of it. Yeah fascinating and then number seven be persistent. So what does does it mean to be persistent to persistent trend jacker Yup com emphasize. This enough like the likelihood you're GonNa hit with your first one or two attempts Very very low. There is a skill. Set that you build up from it but there are also some if you will evergreens that you can use took practice because these stories perennial. They're not going away. So if you have the right level of assistance it's the same. It's upton safer just to go for one of these stories and try things out because they're gonNA come around anyway. What I mean specifically about assist is done gave up on the first one or two places? This is don't expect you know the the The New York Times or the Wall Street of the Times of London Financial Times. It's GONNA take time. You may ninety two to three or four different folks may need to flex your angle as we said before he may even needs a timeout. Come back again but certain stories unknow going away we talked to you. Know the the record good slash holiday sales and be titled You Name The commodity that you're talking about classic is CEO to pressure. Now be flagged recently so we were until recently we were we were attendance sliding but dash asteroid Eros on by many times. Can you insert yourself into that story. you know great new Hot New trends. You know things that think of things like toys will. Oh I phones or whatever anything new. That's coming out. You could predict they have to have a loan state for that. You can get all over that this is what we'd start to prepare and another great one especially with you guys in the states and the Abbey's nonfarm wages the tonight's government statistics. That like it or not. You're has to release those things on entirely highly predictable and you can just practice away and keep assistant. You hit the trend. Jack that gets you WANNA get too. Yep I I love of it and the other thing too about persistency is maybe you're not gonNA get in the Wall Street Journal the first time pro probably not but you might get in some respected Ed but much smaller lesser known industry blog. And so. That's okay right. Starting small building a bit of a reputation Getting a name amongst the journalists you know building up overtime then. Maybe you get in the Times of London absolutely and don't forget as well. These guys. On The Times of London on the baby specifically we actually know which titles which are often sex titles they read themselves to research their stories so we know that there are seed titles from which the major titles take the news so yeah and one of the things you can do and this is something laxity asclepius. You can read feed those stories from the less finals. Enter the bigger titles explaining why you think it's relevant to Sun. High pollution listen journalists to pay attention to this trend is clearly being recognized down in the trades. Let's say And so you can if you like. Recycle the tragic. That's yeah pretty involved. But it's something that we sit here and it's nothing so gratifying to see that the story developed the other thing. I love about trend. Jacking is because of what it is the seven steps you just outlined. There's a lot of companies that aren't going to do do this and so it is very rare in marketing in PR and communications where you can develop a strategic skill set that you know l. for the most part most of your competition either won't or can't pull it off. It's really gratifying. Actually I mean it's terrible analogy but there are certain sports weather positions where you'd be useless any of the position but the position but trend jacking posited. That is what we are about what was have about it. People come to us for now if you don't want that if you happy playing from game or you know facebook expurgated up leads so you don't have average bill that's acceptable but if you're GONNA we're GonNa work with you. We need a little bit of leverage to still shit and we're happy. I love that all right anything else on trend. Jacking Dr Mar.. I would just reemphasize the lowest point. Christopher I I love to systems you know God loves it. Try and you'd like a first time. You'll be amazing. Hit but if you keep going you will get an Taylor. Line silently what. He wants to look his Tokyo talking to you about it. 'cause I appreciate the auto bit I sure do and I really appreciate you and I. I'm so oh stoked that you've become the master sense of trend jacking. Thanks Dave my friend really appreciate. It's time all of that through the coast. You smashing it speak to you again soon. I hope thank you hope to have you back on a regular basis by by by by well there. It is trend jacking with the legendary Eh. Paul Maher sure. Hope you enjoyed that conversation and it makes a giant difference in your legendary marketing. All right we would like to thank the legendary Palmar arch checkout positive marketing dot com positive marketing dot com The good folks at one life live dot. Org
What Difference Does It Make: 1984 Music Countdown with Carmel Holt
"For seventy years. The world's top recording studios and concert stages have relied. On ak g microphones to craft. Today's biggest hits a cagey. Lyra brings legendary acoustic engineering to versatile. Usb microphone that delivers in highest quality audio today everyone is adjusted to higher resolution television. The same must be done with audio the k. g. lyra microphone is a big step in that direction. Whether you're recording a podcast interview your next spotify single or just wanna be heard clearly on your next. Virtual meeting liars innovative aka g capsule array adapts to your performance to record pristine audio with a k. g. Lyra you'll be up and running in no time. No matter your experience level it just works right out of the box create and capture your music podcasts and videos with class leading audio quality by legendary ak g acoustic engineering from the comfort of your home. Holly how are you today doing great today. How are you feeling good. Feeling really good. Welcome to the. What difference. does it make podcasts. A proud member of the pantheon. Podcast families go pantheon in t. We're continuing our countdown. This week we are going from number ninety two number eighty one of the countdown from nineteen eighty-four and we are doing the one zero six point seven pop songs of that year. Just kind of taking a look at it in the past. We've been holly i and now we're starting to invite in some of our favorite people and this is certainly the case. I've been a big fan of carmel. Halts for a long time. I listened to her at wf uv and just her Her presence and just her just engagement with with the music. It was wonderful it was always a treat to hear her voice and i was actually kind of disappointed when she left. What what's going on was happening. Why are you. Why are you ripping carmel away from me. But as it turns out is she. She's got plans. She is actually as i opened up my email yesterday. The number eight most powerful person in the triple a universe according to according to paul mars lack and his top twenty two. This celebrated this is carmel. Holt of the syndicated radio. Show xiros so welcome carmel. Thank you so much nick. Great to be here. Thank you dave. Hi holly new. Thank you so much for all those kind words. Save on like start crying again crying for tears sir. Happy tears. that's what i'm saying. Yes yes that's so nice to be here. Thank you for inviting me. Yeah so yeah. Cool thing though now is with a syndicated show is people not necessarily in new york all over the country. You can hear you tell us a little bit about xiros. What is the idea behind it. what i did was basically take the two things that i know which is play listed music and interviewing and put them together into an hour show whose mission is to amplify and celebrate women in music but in a way that raises awareness about the lack of quality on the airwaves both on the hosting side and the programming side. Those behind the scenes on the mike at the radio stations and also in the playlist and in the music business general. And so what i am to do is to provide listeners. This opportunity to hear something that they don't normally hear there's all these baked in rules for some reason of programming where you're not supposed to play two women on the air back to back you're not supposed to have two female deejays on the air back to back. This is somewhere some. I don't know how this came into being but this has been a rule And so I'm trying to subvert that With this show and also just give listeners. You know because it's like you don't even know this is so baked in. You've always heard it this way. You're not even aware that it's something that you're missing so Rather than just trying to be an echo chamber of like okay. This is for for ladies. This is really for everybody. i'm just saying. Hey there's all this music that you're not hearing. Because of these strange baked in rules music would be better for everybody if it was a more level playing field. There's also a a new show launching in the spring back circling back to sonos based on their player which will be launching in march. Well same team. Same theme different different format awesome. That's very exciting. Yeah when did you become aware of the rule because you were music. Director know this unwritten rule that everyone knows about but and you know of course you probably. Your first question is why. And they'll so bizarre. I don't know i never have yet been able to find out the reason why you know it's interesting because so i'll answer your first question. When did i first become aware of it. I was aware of it. Basically from the beginning started in radio right out of college and I was a musician myself. And so i was on the other side of things where i was already coming up against barriers and challenges and frustrations and then when i got into radio i learned. Oh wow wait. This is like not any different from being over there over here and it's still that way but yeah i mean i myself. Unfortunately because i didn't get to make the rules. I just had to follow them. You know i programmed radio station for you now for eight years in one place and then six years in another and had to follow those rules myself and it was painful to do so rita. Houston your was your pd. You worked with her. Was this a conversation you had between the two of you. You must have like you know. I really want. This is an artist. I love. Why can't we play here or why can't you know there are four new artists this week. That are all women. I'd love to play all them. Why can't i play them on my show in you know at this time. So what was that discussion. Well the radio station As most aaa stations are Are programmed programmed re. Dj's don't have. There are a few exceptions to this. You know i think k. xp and maybe the current minneapolis have a much more open playlist but in in most cases radio. This is kind of like the peek behind the curtain. There is a music director. That's plugging in you. Know there's there's a program and new songs get added as well as old ones and there's percentages that are calculated by a program. Then there's a human element of like massaging those things and making sure that things sound good right but basically You're dealing with you know a stack of paper your logs every day and the music is already loaded in for you i did. I had very very little say in what actually got played on the air and music meetings where i sat in a room with three or four. Other people Yeah unfortunately i never got a good explanation and those rules were always pretty much followed. I mean i think f uv of any station You know that. I knew of Was the most adventurous in that way. In terms of gender balance and over. I know it was something that really cared about. But we still ended up kind of following that rule More or less. I'm taking on a project this week. Dave i'm gonna make some calls in Really wanna know where this originated in why like an amendment to the constitution. Why can't this be changed people. When he people's listening is different. You know if we were listening when we listen to the radio now it is no longer jarring to hear two women in a row to females at around. As far as jocks go than the average listener wouldn't really notice it. I will say that Two things one is that ninety percent of program directors ninety nine zero ninety percent of program directors at radio stations across formats are male and white and also because in radio. We were in a game where even public radio ratings scame. There's this whole thing about getting money. It's weird radio after make money and so what ends up happening is because of the idea that familiarity builds right. It builds Allegiance in your listeners. Builds comfort people come back because they want to hear things that they've heard and they want to discover new music when there's market research done and people are not used to hearing female voices. What do you think is going to happen. What songs do you think are going to quote unquote test. Well if they are not accustomed to hearing female voices on the air. Do you think that they're going to rate higher. Something that they feel comfortable with with a male voice because they're more accustomed to hearing that or do you think that they're going to rate higher female voice. What do you think is going to happen. It's the logical thing so we end up in the self perpetuating pattern now where the suits consultants etcetera say. But we've done the research meals. Just don't test well and there you go it just kind of perpetuates and perpetuates so then the then. The program directors can wash their hands. And say. I don't know. I mean we would love to but we have to sell it and sell it. That's right yeah so so we have some. You know we have some work to do. I think were were in a better place now than ever. And fortunately unfortunately with all of the pushing in the past year during the pandemic and black lives matter for diversity and inclusion. This conversation is up in a big way and that gives me hope you know. I think that people are way more aware and open to having these conversations and open to you know kind of doing some self reflection. I'm also doing a study. with A few women from the uk and And here in the states to actually get statistics on this Because it's one thing to kind of have anecdotal evidence and then it's a whole other thing to actually have the hard numbers. Let's actually analyze this. So we're gonna look at the last five years of airplay across formats every format that we can touch In the united states in radio and actually see what's happening there. That's fantastic to here. That i would love to hear the results. When it said said and done it will be published. I promise yes. I'm sure all right right so yes let's take a turn to. Let's go back in time and so here. Yeah i know we're gonna whatever yeah we're gonna talk about some of these songs that were played on k. Roku in the early eighties it. Actually let's go back a little bit for you. Mel what What was your first radio station that you remember or personality. What did you listen to like when on the car going to whatever like middle school or whatever what was happening. I grew up in a house. I grew up in an npr household was the. I'm first generation. My parents were both jewish from israel in europe and bills into classical music and npr news. That was it. So i grew up with the all things considered that was my childhood soundtrack. There there's the funk. But i discovered popular music when i was probably five or six because i was gifted a rack system for my birthday. That was like a radio shack with the turntable on the top. And the tuner on the front and eight track and so. That's where i started to listen to more popular music and i don't remember specific person the only personality i remember. I remember to wolfman jack and a doctor. Demento both of them l. When casey kasem syndicated much like yourself. You're you're going down the case route. This is exciting. Maybe we'll have a shiro's countdown every week. Do you remember like the i. I love to ask the first album or single. Maybe maybe a poster that you had up on your wall. Okay no posters. That wasn't really allowed butts. But but but i do remember the first album that i actually bought. My first records were all beatles. Records handed down for my big sisters Grew up on the beatles. But the first album. That i actually went to a record store. Bought was madonna's first record. Is that right about that choice. Still and you still have it. Yes yeah i do. Actually good i have that. And speaking of nineteen eighty-four. I do have my original copy of prince purple rain. Did you get to see a rated r. Movie you know that was raided art that you see it in the in the theaters are i don't know i. It was many years later. That i actually saw the movie too young. It's tough to watch now. Sometimes it's a little oil misogynistic but still like everything in the eighties. I know go back but not uncommon to phones in the eyes but still yeah but those performances are amazing. Okay we're talking to our favorite shiro. That's carmel holtz and we will take up eight welcome back. To what difference does it make and our very special guest on this episode carmel. Holt okay enough chitchat. Get to the heads down. The countdown begins all right. So we start with number ninety. This is lamarche. that's love that it is. This is the first of three songs that are on the k rock list. And i will ask holly and you can. You can chime in if you like. K rock now has their rock the eighties format and they paired it down to eighty songs. So they they've chopped off twenty five twenty six point seven songs. I'd like to quiz to see if she thinks it's still on the list if it's still relevant did you. By the way. I gave you a cheat. Mike marrone tossed it aside did you. Did you study ecorse okay. Good pair show craft good been trained to prep always. Of course go all right. Good purpose right did not know this band blancmange. This band was again Really big and especially in eighty four. This was the the pd back. Then was freddy snakeskin and he found a lot of his albums through just digging through crates of albums and he liked to go through the name. Right yeah yeah really. I'm sure she gets thrown out but he he liked going through the imports. It was k. Rock played a lot of imports. And so this was one of those and it kind of it was Something that l. a. Took to where did you. What did you think of this song me. Yes i loved it. Yeah loved it. And then and then i kind of went down the rabbit hole like oh this. Oh like really cool and What did i i was like. Oh yeah they're kind of like Like a poor man's depeche mode or something. This was actually be the. Yeah they start actually around the same time they were coming up so yeah yeah he can fill last year. Wasn't it fifty do job. that's right. Well yeah and and how. I had wet. What are your thoughts. Do you remember this on song. I am gonna reiterate again. It's so funny. I left nineteen eighty-four music in rock. It reminds me how much i love music. It reminds me of songs that i have long since forgotten and i look i. I liked some of the videos. Couldn't find designs. I listen to but videos. Couldn't find 'cause i love looking at them to you. Know a good mullet and hair now but did you did you this up. Yeah i think Carmel hit the nail on the head with a poor man's depeche mode but the this album. I think they were. They were building up this this following an l. a. and family seem. Yeah but they see. This wasn't played on mtv so it felt like uniquely ours. I think. And that's i think that's kind of why there are three songs from blue on this. This for wondered that too. I was like maybe this was a west coast thing because i didn't really but anyway it. It wouldn't have been odd for me not to be aware of them from this time but i will say That there's a lot of eighties music. That i missed I want to save the first time round. I'm putting that in air quotes then. Once i became programmer and radio personality. I rediscovered or discovered for the first time so much like i. I kind of had a renewed love affair with the eighties. Because i was i was like i wish that i was there. You know 'cause. I just two little there but yeah that's kind of the fun thing especially when you hear new music. There's a lot of new artists coming out and it reminds you of something you've heard long ago and then like oh. Yeah that that touched on you know. This band did that a long time ago. And they're doing their own unique takes. It's it's fun and then and that's one of the reasons we do. This is because it is kind of lost classics. So i will add collie is this song. Still on the charts. Now it's not. What do you think carmel would still be on the list with this song. Still be on the list. The pared-down list the list of eight became rocks on. Do you think this one is still under. Did a fall off. No i don't think so. That is correct. This is no longer on the list. I will say though. There are going to be some surprises. Some songs you might think would be on our list like this but They took off completely. Okay all right. So this takes okay holly. Did you want to say something. You say comment that carmel made about depeche mode. We'll find that in a lot of these songs are reminiscent of depeche mode. Yeah that's that. That is not surprising. But what's interesting is like how there can be you know of a moment of an era so many bands kind of like tapping into the same. Whatever it is in the in the air. You wanna say right but also some of it just being purely a time. Capsule of what instruments were these instruments like synthesizers things were like evolving and there was the newest and this right so everyone was kind of like grabbed this gravitational pull towards synthesize music and electronic music. And i don't know like depeche mode. Why did they rise to the top versus ball. Mosh like who knows right is at the songs was it. The look was at the marketing. Yes yes yes and. He looked at some bands win over the others. If they all kind of are feeding from the same have you looked at. They've gone have you seen him. Have you seen like a constant. Not this humble brag. I interviewed dave. I'm not is the nicest person ever so amazing. He's so mazing he also is still handsome. Yeah i of. Years ago. I saw them live at the hollywood bowl and i hadn't seen them in many many many years and they were put on such a great. Show your doubts about Bans being able to put on a great show. You're used to seeing you know five piece guitar two guitars and they put on such a fantastic show And his voices their voices are still great. Amazing yet great songs to it is the power of the front right to the top. Okay alright we yeah. We answered our questions. A great songs and greet frontman great performances and sincere so wonderful. That takes us up to number eighty nine. Now we talk about the look and so this this kind of crack me up looking at the video for elvis costello's the only flame in town. It was very very much eighties. This is from an album called goodbye cruel world. And i don't know if you've ever bought if you the nine hundred ninety five cd reissue. Elvis says congratulations. You just bought the worst. Elvis costello album ever released but break-up at the time extra bad feelings about it but this was the attractions this yeah yeah this was. This was the last album i think. What the full lineup of elvis gusto and the attractions problems with recording the album with direction they want to go but i do like this on the only flaming town. You remember this song carmel. Now not at all not at all not only do i not remember it but it never you know of all the elvis costello you know catalog. It's never shown up in a playlist. I it was completely off my radar. That sounds about right. Because i mean i think this is an album as i just said that. He wasn't that proud of so like on reissues or greatest hits. There's something you know. His his cadillac is so huge and so strong that even though this was a charming song i mean a upon listening to it now for some reason. I put this out of my mind. It's features daryl hall on Background vocals either. Yeah that is a very good trivia. Well actually he is in the video as well. So it's kind of funny just seeing them interacting together and it's it is kind of time with a sax solo in all that stuff. It's super eighties. So as someone. Who doesn't remember that song. And probably as i i'm going to assume you love elvis costello and his catalog what court. Yeah all right. So i liked the song okay. It didn't like floor me. I wasn't like ooh hidden gem that i now discovered it was fine. It was now the song. Yeah completely completely. Yep pretender in philadelphia. And you're grading sean cokely's Talking about okay. So i think that's funny For for a little inside baseball. But there's an annual conference in philadelphia at w. x. Pin and our friend. Sean coakley does these music meetings. Whereby it's so fun actually. It's my favorite thing He plays these snippets of new songs. Sometimes it's by new artists. Sometimes it's by artists. We don't know but he doesn't reveal who it is or what the song title is or anything about it. We just listen to like a snippet and then everybody has these cards. And we rate them raider record It can get pretty interesting. People get like really aggro sometimes. Anyway i was was putting up a card for this. I would probably give it a five. Yeah there you go all right. That's what we say when something is finally said. Yeah it's it's just fine perfectly acceptable. It's fine it's a it's a song. It's it's a little bit more than just a song. Maybe i should give it a six. It was a fine because it's elvis. It becomes a six. Yes okay all right. So hollywood you said as i know you remember this song and you have probably some nice memories of it. Of course they do. It is not my favorite elvis song. And i can go either way whether it is on the tug eighty. I wanna say. I want to say yes. Wanna say yes are so you are saying okay. This is no longer on the list. Oh okay when for two but do you like. Do you still like the song. I mean does this i i would. I would imagine you'd think more of it because we've heard numerous times in the eighties. Cindy i think i loved it because it was an elvis song. I was just i. May i was programmed to. Because i love him a little better than fine for me so i was happy to hear it again because i hadn't heard it in a long time but i don't love it like i said it's not i. I like it a lot. They don't let it a little specific. Sure i think after punch the clock. And everyday i write the book so this is like their next album and those are those are high. Those are high marks to run exactly. It's okay to have a little slump. There has done a lot of great work right bad not getting super excited about it but but it's okay. Yeah he was making the transition as well. You know you had those those new waves you know those those first four records and now he's going to like this smooth jazz type salad so it's you know which which was of that of the mid eighties. That was kind of what everyone was going for. Just hit the nail on the head. He feels about it. Why do we have to feel bad about not getting so excited. We should fine move up moving on moving on all right number. Eighty eight general public general public. This is by the band. General public and the song is called general public. Holly do you remember this song. of course i do. I love the sun. I liked general public. Steve in rankin roger their sound will always be significant of the time. Also let them. I remember the song confronted video. This wasn't a single. This was against iraq. Did they like to general public. Kind of lamarche. This was the first couple songs singles hit. And so what else can we play and they. They like to dig into the album and play something deeper and so. That's that's where this came around. This was not something that was familiar. With general public was kind of like a super banned in a way because they're members of dixies midnight runners Tenderness that's the one. Everybody knows no they to this right right. And i didn't even as i looked on wikipedia and i didn't realize that jones was in the band and credited in the album for For i don't know what he played on. Mc jones of the clash was was in general public for a little bit of time. Yeah i was surprised. Also i had no idea so cheat notes i asked okay so this is general public and the song is general public. How many other songs that reference themselves can you name any. There's a lot there are. Yeah there's totally a lot. I mean you just mentioned mick jones so there is like this. Is radio clash If that cheer. I'll give you credit. Can't say that company bad company The stray cat strut from by a stray cats. I cleaned killer queen wilco wilco. The song and wilco the album. The monkeys the monkeys. What else Bad religion bad religion. Belen have self referential song black sabbath Black sabbath black sabbath the damn yankees green day Are you just doing this. Call them the gang. yeah. I didn't know that. But i know that we would also accept they might be giants. Motor had big country in a bright. I will say. I have a little bit of an advantage here because i used to do. I used to do with themed Our called the mix tape. And also i did this when i was at. Wgst it was called something else. But like a noontime request. Show and i would do themes everyone smell and i would like tell listeners to like this was one that i loved and always did really well And so i've i've done this exercise more than once one marries so yes you did very well. I'm very impressed. Lovat okay so. I'm going to ask you holly. Is this still on the list. And you say no are they. Don't even get your take on this song. Carmel did you. would you think of this school. General public yeah. I mean i just i just don't know i just don't know there anything beyond. I've never take the deep dive so but yeah school english english feet. Yes but i didn't again. That was something that i discovered later. I wasn't. They weren't on my radar when i was a kid. When did you start going back. Usually you're into your own music for you know as as as you're a teenager and then sometimes in college you start going back when when was it worry like starting to discover different eighty s music or i mean probably when i started working. Wgst because you know that was in the nineties and you know so our golds were from the eighties and the this. The radio station started in the eighties. So so yeah. That was and i started listening to that radio station when i was in college Before i started working there so yeah that was when you know all kinds of things opened up to me. And i became friends with nic. Harcourt and you know he had the whole like british thing you know. So yeah that's when. I started to kind of get an education of like you know eighty s but like cool eighties music. That wasn't pop nick and introduce you to blow martian. That was that. I can remember any. Yeah yeah it's funny that you say that about pop music. Because stephen i have have conversation. I have to have distinguished for him and he continues to bring it up. I'm a fan of eighty s. New wave pop. Music was funny for me in the eighties. Let's say and for me it's so you know And some of its ages. Well you know better than others just saying that you know for me pop. Music is style gic from the eighties. Because that was what was on the radio. When i was a kid but yeah also there you know for me i like so i was like i said ten eleven in nineteen eighty-four and then by the time so those preteen when i became a teenager my whole lens for what i was listening to went further back so i wasn't even like plugged in to eighty s music when it was actually happening because i started to get enthralled with sixties and seventies music. I became a hippie dead head. So i was like her into the grateful. Dead and janice jackson allman brothers and all that stuff so again. I kind of like missed a lot like i remember my friends being like super super psyched about you too and i was just like but it's nice that you get to discover it later on a so you discover a whole is a catch up new whenever you discover it. It's so exciting. Even if you're not in the same moment with it so so you did jump in the van and you went The dead tour okay. Are you kidding me you man. I need a miracle. Come on me. I got many believe me spun. I i. I consider myself very lucky. That's very cool okay anyway. General public is not on the list anymore. We'll keep going. Let's keep moving along number ninety. Seven the psychedelic furs heaven. Wow carmel melted. Wow that was pretty cool over this. Delic fur's okay so for me you do too. I love an and like pretty in pink. Are you kidding me like that. Movie like psychedelic burs. I just have this association to like john hughes all those movies breakfast love and pretty paying and so. It's kind of an automatic. Like i just love it. I love his voice so much. I agree with you in tabby memories that these also they're like they're intertwined. You touched on pretty pretty in pink. Who who is your guy in pretty in pink are you did you. Did you relate to duckie or are you a spader guy what You know. I love duck. Yeah okay kidding. Good call okay the underdog i know but spader have. The hair had everything he had the car. Everything going on there now. Okay but you know what he was a player. You recognize that immediately. Okay is hot that he was a player. very good. yeah. I think we all agree that having is is pretty spectacular so we all love the song. Is this song. Still on the charts. Everybody yes yeah yeah. Of course yeah. All right very good go even further. I know there will be more psychedelic for songs on the chart that none of them have dropped us. Okay could they all right so speaking of movies we move onto number eighty six panoramas cruel summer. Okay this song. I remember from one kid. Of course you didn't. I saw this in the theater to love it so much so so much. It definitely sounds really dated so. I don't think that this song is an example of something that's aged well but i feel like if somebody were to like cover it or do a remix it would totally chart in our people out. There know an essence submitted. A cover of this. That's not who i'm thinking. More like the xx you or like billie eilish or scum kind of a bedroom type of sound. Yeah actually banana rama in the they did another version of this song like a new jack. Swing kind of sounds like bill. Bill de vos poison chartered at that cruel sa- but anyway they they've done. They've remixed it a little bit. But i'm sure yeah. Someone can give a a good spin to that song. Recommend i know this big in our house but this is a good. It's a good cover. It's also about and she has a great way me as a just a beautiful voice. I'll say again. I anything banana. Madonna's i understand. I agree with you about it. Being a little bit dated. I love them so much. I wanted to them. When i was living in the eighties. Wanted to be them. They were just so cool in their closing their hair and they were coolest so anything probably could have come out of their mouths than i would have loved. The song made up to number nine in the. Us it's number forty four as vh1 made it the forty fourth. Most popular song of the eighties lives on and thanks to karate kid Have you watched. Are you watching cobra kai did you watch cobra. Kai i don't know. I i might have to try again like i. Just got so. Like grossed out the first episode. I was like oh i don't know i've heard it's really good though. Yeah okay so karate kid which the movie we love and still have fond memories of love. Is it still. Is this song still on the list. Carmel what do you think like. I said i love this song. I n and its own astaldi for me. But i i think as it is right now. It doesn't age. Well all right for gen-x this this age is extremely well. It's now it was number. Eighty six back in eighty four now in this revised list. It's at number twenty two so how we felt for them. Yes we're good. People have a certain age can never get enough of this song. Which which we kind of mentioned okay. So let's keep going number. Eighty five is a flock of seagulls. The more you live the more you love and this was this is this will be our farewell to ever mentioning a flock of seagulls again. This was their last last charting song but still pretty good. I mean did you give it a listen carmel. The black of siegel song. Yeah of course. What did you think of it. I think i thought like okay. This sounds like again. It was one of those like general public. Where i don't really know the cannon like and i'm an appreciator not necessarily like an enormous fan so it's hard for me to comment on and really feel like i'm coming from educated place purely from a sonic standpoint. I mean i think it's a cool song. I've heard other songs by them. That i think might be. I mean like they're hit like you know run right iraq something about a flock of seagulls. I think it goes the credit. I mean everyone thinks of mice gotten his hair. I think the lead guitarist which i had to look up paul rentals. He has like this great sound that he gave to flock of seagulls. During that that's small period of time very unique. And i really. I think that helps age these songs. Well i think we kind of touched on what what what is aged well and what we can throw away but i think probably because of the guitar sound. It's still kind of draws you in. And i really. I really liked the song still hollywood. I had forgotten how much i liked the song as on better than iran. Maybe iran just ran. Its course with me by really like this song. And you're right about the sound at the video from the first note. I just totally took me back. There's just something about it as a. I think it's something like The psych firs. When you hear heaven like those. I sounds something that folks great memories and i think that the of seagulls kind of touched on that now saying that is this on the list. I wanted to be. But i don't think it is. I'm gonna assume. Carmel thinks the same thing and i'm going to tell you that. Yes it is not his no longer on the list number. Eighty four eurythmics. Who's that girl. I just can't even with a song. Next are so good. Like i think a is it fair to say that they're underrated now like i feel like somehow they don't get the shine that they should but they are Mazing and dave stewart's amazing. They're both like what a power couple. What a lake. It's it's just. It's incredible and i feel like their music really does stand up. I can't believe an out also it. It made me remember. I cannot remember. But i i remembered not from that time but like remembered from recent memory that they released two albums in nineteen eighty. Three that it was here comes the rain again and touch. Keep both came out in nineteen eighty. Three which is like it's like bonkers and so her who's that girl is actually from nineteen. Eighty-three it's not an technically not in one thousand nine hundred four song just to be annoying about it but But yeah i bring it bring it anything. Eurythmics bring it. As far as i'm concerned. This is an awesome song. And i love the video. Video is really great. Especially when we first met annie lennox so kind of this androgynous look and so the video kind of touch on that a little bit more. She's dressed up as elvis and kind of seducing the singer They kind of play off each other. And there's dave stewart being you know kind of as i think he played like love interest. But it's fun because you look in you. Recognize a number of the of his people are sitting at the table with dave. It's a number of like old eighties artists. Some members of panorama rama hazel o'connor. Are you familiar with hazel. O'connor at all she's worth looking into. She's a very power this. There's a song. Eighth day that i think it came on early. Eighty s really great. Great powerful singer. Really good stuff. She's in there. Just a fun fun song that touches on so many different themes and i just love it and i'd like you just can't get enough of it you know. So you mentioned banana. Should i should say he. That's in the video and she actually ended up. Marrying dave stewart appears later interesting. Good tissue eighties turn. Eighty eighty cents kick. Garner is in this video as well from hazy fantasy. Just a stunning beauty. That just happens. Picked a really quick cameo in this video dave's girlfriend. We love this song. Is this song on the list. Yeah criminal aliens. Yes for some reason. This is not on the list. Oh hey rock yes. There's going to be a few. Oh well oh well we move about you know but you can still. I mean it's still played. I think in. I think maybe it's played on classic. Hits stations still and aaa and you could still hear the song different places sweet dreams and here comes the rain again. Those are us missionary man. You know those things are. She's been amazing to follow by the way during the pandemic. I don't know if either of you follow her on instagram. but she's she's really been amazing. Just you know sitting are piano and singing in just you know having these very heartful felt messages to people and Yeah it's been really cool. I will thank you. It's nice yeah. A lot of a lot of artists are kind of trying to reach out. I think that's been one of the advantages now is like ours trying to discover ways to connect and through social media. We've kind of even though it's not the same as seeing someone live and in person on stage but it kind of feels a little at times with and you're you're literally stepping inside their house and so yeah. Yeah lot of lot of like the third wall. Kinda come down. So yeah okay. So let's move onto number eighty three the thompson twins. Doctor dr love it. You've have very fond memories of thompson. Twins totally totally. This is not the song though. I mean i like. I really really liked the song lot but this is not the song for me. It's off the out into the gap was the album that spawned all these hits and this was like one. Yeah and it was one of the biggest albums of that year for sure right. It's not hold me. Hold me out which we will which we'll talk about later on this episode but but we are talking doctor doctor and i think this was the song that followed hold now. The follow up single still still very strong and still. I still love hearing this. I think it speaks to the production of the song. That's really really very strong. It's great what about hollywood. yes also night. it's funny. I don't know where running game here but we talked last week about the song with the title track into the gap which i actually liked better miss. I do like the sun. And i happen to think it remains on the top eighty one of the fact when i was looking at just prepping a list. I came up with a few more songs. That compares singer's love to a medical condition soon after theme behind the song. This is the besides that comparison being in love to a medical state right right. That's a good one very good. Which alone is like the sickness and lebas secure. Right that's right. We talked about this last week though. I curious as as someone like a preteen did you thompson. Twins were on the performed on. Live aid did you watch live aid. Do remember that and because the thompson twins on for live eight. I did not watch it now. Okay because this live thompson. Twins saying the beatles revolution and madonna joined them on stage. Show like the thompson. Twins were so big that madonna came on to be on stage with them. Yeah i did not have cable tv so i had to go to like a friend's house to watch. Mtv even and it was like. Wow you know my friends have mtv so yeah no. I didn't. I didn't watch it very good days. We're mtv was obviously things everything was. I miss those days in the portlandia episode where they try to bring back. Mtv i vaguely remember that they like call up like pin field kurt loader. What's her name martha plumpton. They get them all together. Martha plumpton command. Thank you and they they get them all together and like go to the headquarters at viacom and try to make a case for bringing back. Mtv pretty funny you should look it up. Love four was the first year that they did the mtv awards right yes. They still have that award show. Have you tried watching the mtv awards for us. I but what do you think of award show. Would you want like grammy's does that. I will always watch the grammys. Even though i think it's kind of bullshit. But i you know and i'm especially intrigued now that i'm kind of like in this lane where i'm kind of really focused on a equality gender equality and racial equality in music. I'm very very interested in how you know. Just the graham uses been fascinating to watch se steady from from a very kind of like analytical standpoint where the attention gets put who gets what who gets to present who wins who gets the snubs especially especially during that speech or something like that to women to ordinary north. Thank you l. Right it was. It was a right but it was one of the things that kick started me in this direction right. Yeah so that's something. That's that's great where they took. I mean a lot of people took this negative this horrible thing that was spoken on national tv and as and just recognize like. Oh oh. I think it was very positive. Turn this negative into a positive i question. Yeah yeah it was kind of a wake up call. So that's that was very good. So it's it's kind of moving in that direction. let's let's continue our countdown. Which blah again. Guess what we get to talk about. This is a this was actually a b side. Now i'm going to ask you have you back in the day beside the single with i mean maybe a ds t where you were ever able to say. Oh this here's another saw. The single is alright that i like this this other song from the band. Yes yes and actually i was you know for i. I was blessed in that way. That all of my radio career. We definitely always always always looked for other songs and actually push back sometimes on on labels when they were pushing the single on. It didn't feel right and we listen to the album and found better songs and didn't always play the chart game so So yeah very good and so did you give this song game above my head. This is the second of three lamar songs. Would you think of this on. I mean just like the first one. I thought it was cool. I don't renault this band you know so it was really. It was a i. Listen so i would have to kind of revisit again to really have a. I think and more context maybe to formulate like a good like pro opinion on it but school. I don't know if i mentioned that. A doctor doctor is still on the list. Number sixty is. You'll be happy before we even started talking about this. I'm very happy to know. So now i will ask about the beaumont. Is this song on this list. The song that that leaves carmel. Kinda cold leaves this for viewer. Cold what do you think holly is this still on the list like a song a lot. Go with yes. I know. they're going to be other songs from blue maggi. At least one word that is going to remain on the top eighty that we have gotten to yet. But i want to say yes about this. You're correct this is on the list. Eurythmics no blancmange. yeah throat. The more the merrier feather eurythmics sworn that was on. Yeah well we continue okay so this is going to be the last song of our list. We've reached and this is probably one of my favorites. This is cindy lauper. She bop and this episode on this. I well i mean we watch the video again and you just kind of fall in love again with just the energy that cindy lauper brings. She was meant for video. The ad this she's so unusual was just a phenomenal record. It was just like nothing. We'd heard before but she was. It was something that we were ready for. You know and i love that. She was just this huge personality and still to this day and at the time had really no idea that it was about masturbation even though you watch the video and it's all out there clueless but it's very obvious when when you watch the video. What are your thoughts carmel on. I'm cindy and this one. The song she yeah. I mean i. She's amazing and you know again. My my lens for the song originally was through the eyes of preteen. So you know. I had a much more innocent viewpoint than i did as an adult so i would imagine she would be as a preteen. She would appeal to you like you see this. And she's like this this oversize personality but just kind of glamorous and still a rockstar and singing. I would imagine that that might have appealed to. She didn't hit me that way but But i i appreciated moore. I certainly i. I liked your music. You know and And videos were fun and she was fine. I think i was maybe in terms of like you know someone. People that captivated me I was probably more drawn to like madonna. That's been. I was cindy lauper. Madonna was a madonna over team. Lauber okay that they were rivals at all. But i think madonna was a little bit more of a bad girl. And so you know and there was something like i think. I don't know this would be something kind of interesting to to like to do a little. I think on a little bit or do more digging or research on but like just off the cough off the top of my head. I'm thinking lake. They were both rebellious. And they were both subversive. But i think that madonna was just so much more overt about it and outspoken and were brazen. And i feel like yeah cindy lauper more cartoony i think possibly maybe madonna for you felt more real really compare myself. I don't compare them their music. They even the styles of music but city lauper not a character or a caricature but just she represented something different to me. I think she's the stronger singer. Then the madonna. She just phenomenal. Oh my god She said in this song that she was combining electronica in rockabilly trying to bring those those elements together and so kind of has that feel like she mentioned like when she she starts a song with. That's kind of like her rockabilly. Like option be bop bop. The sun was a one thousand. Nine hundred. eighty five pm are see list of fifteen. Oh it must have been. Yeah you know. I mean it was pretty blatant that. This was what they were. If if princes darling nikki masturbating by with a magazine was was on the list and cyndi lauper. I mean the video is great. She's alone in their in her car. And the windows are steaming. And it's just her and there with with the magazine. It's phenomenal truly national treasure. I love her so much. So cool all right so that that brings us. Oh is this on the list. Carmel what do you think i will say. Who's that girl is not on the list as we talked to this. It's a huge chant. It's not it's not on the list now. Shall we probably too big papi to who knows there. We go so. That's that's our ten song chunk. I wanted to give you an opportunity if you work out. We last month we lost read a houston from. Can you give us some words about what she meant to you. As as someone did you consider. Did you consider her your mentor. And which he bring the radio and when she bring into your life yeah i mean she was definitely my my mentor And she was also my family. She's really close friend. you know. it's a huge loss. And for me personally. You know we hadn't worked together in a in a while. Because i left f- uv in In twenty nineteen. So you know when she when she passed. I felt quite lucky that we were no longer co workers that we had our relationship had shifted back into where we were just friends. You know that was a gift. Because i was able to really be there at the end. But you know i mean. She's a trailblazer and was so So important so had such a pivotal role to play. You know it's like. I was thinking about this because the day that she died was a tuesday and i was doing. You know i have produced this weekly radio show now and it gets delivered out to radio stations on tuesday night and i was like i can't i cannot work i cannot. I was a mess. I was just got it. But i kept hearing rita my head like telling me to like not like suck it up but just you know okay. You're you're grieving but let's get back to work like there's time degree later this is. This is somebody who you know. Lost her father and then two days later was on stage at the beacon theater. You know she all through her. Illness never stopped never stopped working and there were moments where some of us were like. Oh my god like how can she keep going you know. Maybe she shouldn't keep going. Maybe she should be resting but it was like up to the very very end. You know and that taught me so much and i found myself coming back to that ethos when i confronted with her death it was like i was able to kind of like throw myself into my work and that was so healing for me. Yeah and so. I've just been reflecting a lot on so i you know. I dedicated that show. I had an interview will come full circle to the start of this conversation where i told you guys that i sat and did a ton of interviews for a podcast that was never to be or at least not to be yet and half of the interviews were with women who were on the business side and i had been bugging rita for a decade or more to get her story down now. You don't wanna talk to me. Why do you wanna talk to me like. Because you're rea- fucking houston. That's why anyway. I finally got my wish and i interviewed her. It was amazing for for shiro's and then it sat in the vault because the podcast never came out all of a sudden there. I am the day that she died thinking. Oh why god now might be the moment. And i opened up and i listen to for the very first time since we recorded at that day and You know when. I was like going back and forth like this going to ring true for stations across the country. I realize like no matter who is listening to this. No matter if you are a music. Fan rita houston has influenced somebody that you care about like a musician from brandi carlile to katy lang to adele too. I mean the list is like a mile and a half long of artists that took to social media by the way right away to thank her to have that large of an imprint. I mean that's that is that's a life well spent you know and it's something to aspire to. There's a small group of us close with rita who are getting bracelets made what would read a deal w subordinate and it's something that like. I mean i literally. I keep with me every single day. I hear her my head every single day. I'm here talking to you. Thanks to her. And i feel duty in a sense of responsibility to carry her legacy. You know. that's that's the work now is like you know. Keep keep showing up to work. Keep showing up to work. Keep supporting artists. Keep building relationships. That's how she did it. You know so. I know that was a long though. It's our it's hard when somebody brings that topic up to me. You know it's There's a lot to say. Thank you so much. I mean this. And you are continuing with your shiro. Show and it's it really is. The torch has been passed so to speak. And you're you're really you're promoting great music and that's all that matters really you know you're pushing the artists and these these talents great and you're giving them a voice. It's it's wonderful and i'm really happy. That's you've got this show now and we hear you in la. I can hear you in. La now eighty eight five fm. you know. i guess we're gonna hear you on sonos eventually and now beginning in march. Yeah heroes mix tape memoir actually funny. It's kind of a similar thing were just talking about but That's me yeah. It's it's like what we just did right walking down them re-lane with with songs that's music is so transport if this is so cool thank you guys so much for inviting me. It was a lot of fun. It was really as a nice change of pace for me really. I enjoyed myself very much can meet you holly nice to meet you. Thank you for doing this. We're so grateful. That was a lotta fun. It was a pleasure. Just thinking i'm available. Welcome me back anytime we're gonna that's it we're calling you a friend of the show there all right so thank you so much karbala and we'll talk soon. Yeah take care. Yes for sure all right so thanks again to carmel. Halt a her show is called shiro's radio and its heroes with an s. You could hear the show anywhere holly can you give that information sheriff's radio dot com and also starting in march you'll hear on stonehouse so that should be fun. Sure as mixed yeah super talented. Very happy to have her going over a ten song chunk of songs k rock played way back in one thousand nine hundred four and thank you holly a wonderful co host. Pleasure has been all mind. Dave as it is every single week. At the pantheon podcast. Proud member of the pantheon podcast family. Where can you follow us. Holly you can find us on facebook. At what difference does it make podcast and you can follow us on twitter and instagram at w. podcast and also check out our youtube channel where we are posting regularly. Lots of clips. Lots of outtakes from our show so so subscription simply follow. What difference does it make. Podcast on youtube and you will easily find what holly is posted on there. And it's always something fly. Can't wait to see what she posted this week until next week. This is dave circulator very.
2020 Tour de France Stage 2
"I'm mark, Martin, Hershey Yeah I've never heard of this guy I mean, did you see him cover that move? He covered that move fingers in his nose yeah and on the way he the way he bridged up to that move was well, just bridge was very impressive and. by the way is not a panic. Can he was the twenty three world champion? So that's you know he's got he's got Paul Mars, but you go between Bernal Pogue Ajar Mvp Ramco carapaces. Vokes this school for for the future of cycling. All. Right everybody. Welcome back to the PODCAST. Brought to you by or a ring I'm Lance Armstrong sitting next to j behavior who's sitting next to Georgian Kathy. The ring is the smartest. Let's just call it health tracking device on the market. I'm absolutely this thing folks. Absolutely with this thing pull disclosure we are investors in this company, but I think that. Speaks to how bullish we are with them get your sleep, score, your activity score, and Recovery Score. all these other key data points and metrics body. TEMP MOVEMENT SLEEP CYCLES respiratory rate really just kind of lets you know and you know what I slept like a rock last night, Georgie, and forgot to put the damn thing on. So I would just be so proud to show you my app today and show you how well I slept and how bad you're going to get your ass kicked after the show when we go out for three amount bike ride. You folks can watch that on one of the mapping APPs are George, can tell you about it tomorrow but we are talking oh, sorry go back. So to get your ring, here's our flow code as cool I really like that head on over to aura ring. Oh, you are a ring dot com start tracking your sleep compare with US Senate in. We'll let you know how you're doing. We are talking about stage to cure old friend, Alan. Stage, to. opie to, Moose. It needs OJ to niece. The citizens of niece are getting quite a show. This year today show also brought to you by power dot. We talk about power dot every day after the show yesterday I was in such a hurry ahead teatime down valley big storms here drove down there was totally clear. Perfect. But played hard and played all afternoon in my back was completely newt I had I had to I had the power on in the car on the way home. And even you know it's the only reason I was able to get out of bed today. It's now fully integrated with apple health and Strada used by top athletes in cycling the NFL Major League Baseball PGA. Thirty day money back guarantee. So if you don't love it, send it back twenty percent off all of our listeners. If you go to power dot dot com slash the move the by code at checkout is the move the other cool thing about this crew and I love this team over there they've teamed up with feeding San Diego and feeding America donate forty meals for every power dot duo purchase. Power Dot. Dot. com slash the move. Here's a bike, the flow goes will. Last one here for a bit. New Supporter of ours hammerhead. So this okay, I love this is actually the Gen, one hammerhead by computer Also another company that that we've recently backed over at next ventures. This is the Koru one George. You got one on your bike. I like to tell people if if if you're grandma's flip phone was the top of the line other device, I won't name any names. The karoo especially, the car route two is the iphone eleven. It is that next level, the mapping features all the other features. The integration was DR I realized struggle strivers segments. Here's the thing the Koru too, which is a just a leaps and bounds better than the car Ra-? One. They released initial batch it sold out in two hours. So. If you go over to hammerhead dot IO, just get in the queue right so this initial batch was was so well received and so many people wanted they sold out but don't don't just. Lay Down folks right. I think people need to know to the mapping on trails systems is incredible. They've done a great job developing the software side of this thing and and it really is I'm not kidding it's next level. So go get in Q. and the Q. Make sure you don't miss the Koru too. But before the end of the tour will actually have one of the qe two's on hand my favorite option in that computers, loading the routes beforehand to see the profiles and exactly the turns you need to take. Especially when you're out there in the middle of Nowhere Ryan Gravel or amount bike trails effect you might you should probably loaded up today got it because and I'll tell you what the load up because I'll probably be out of sight and you won't know where to go. So. Head on over to HAMMERHEAD DOT ISO to pre order your K. to. All right. So before we talk about speaking of twos before we talk about Stage two, we gotta talk about yesterday and I'm GonNa Georgina, turn it over to you. We saw. Just? A A an irrational an insane amount of crashes. We knew that there would be carnage. We know all the things we sat. Right you have. You have part of France it hasn't rained in court according to Sean two and a half months then they get this day where it's just. Just a complete downpour and crashes. That's GonNa Happen Right. When you're on these back, roads and cars aren't maintained in Greece and diesel driven everywhere but the plot thickens right and so George by the way to the king of sources right he's got more Intel inside sources in the Peleton outside of the on at the tour. Somebody sneaks a WHATSAPP. Yesterday with. That is correct. Not only do I love all of our listeners here, but it turns out a lot of the writers are listening to us which I think is so dope. Yeah. That's one of my favorite things to hear and I'm I'm hearing from all connections, Oh friends, teammates, and new new friends that were making just because the show and one of the most prominent writers in the Peleton on one of the biggest teams reached out yesterday and he's convinced it was because of the Publicity Caravan one of the cars was soap and it was bring soap all of the roads. He he confirmed he rides those roads all the time in the rain and dry, and they've never ever been that slick. He said it was and I quote he said the roads were like ice. Why would they be Spring? So it's turgeon compensate. They were spraying soap ahead of the riders and he was pretty convinced that That's why there were so many crashes the roads were incredibly slick and we got some pictures. We got one picture that kinda shows the phony stuff on the road where there was an actual big crash because yes, I. Mean you go. You can see the street on the road. I mean they look at that. That's that's not even a turn. That's a little bend in the road and these guys are sliding out. So and there was a lot of stuff on twitter etc. Photos of the soap sponsor spraying the soap sides. There was some question about whether or not that was from actually from this year from last year. So we didn't. We don't WanNA bring those up if it's not not in fact, the case that photo was from yesterday and according to. Georgia's. Name. Why is he not starting today because he's talking to the move Yeah. So it it it look again, we talk about this all the time on the move. Nothing surprises me anymore in cycling like, yeah. I was like I was just so amateur hour like you cannot have that happen in again who who pays at the end of the day all of these things every time we talk about this who suffers it's right and I'm not talking about suffering on the Clinton I'm talking about just the consequences. With voice with with no recourse, it's the writer and we're we're lucky no one sustained serious serious injury that we know of or could have been was a writer on on. McLaren who broke his FEMUR BROKEN FEMUR Philippe Joe Bear. Good friend of mine. He's he's out obviously one of the best writers and Tour de France. He's broken kneecap I mean this is there serious consequences to actions like that talking to. Mackenzie last night, we had a huge wreck in the nascar racing our good buddy. Jimmy Johnson got taken out and even those guys are shocked what's going on in our sport I mean like land said we need a strong voice. You saw what you saw recently happening in tennis they're starting their own. New Union Stronger Union I know this is going down the rabbit hole probably don't want address today we WanNa talk about France but well, I gotta add something to that is we're watching the NASCAR race last night and they're all bunched up in the last eight laps in George's cringing. It how he's GonNa look how close they are together and bulletin I who's on our crew we look at him and go. Dude what you had done, your whole career is far more dangerous. It's Those guys are. Jimmy's and we're GONNA try to get Jimmy on the show one day this week hopefully but he's he always says to me he much preferred a crash in that car then grow they've got all kinds of protective gear but anyway, it's just funny that that made you. So uncomfortable shout out special shout out to Jimmy the forty eight car because th that crash actually This is his last season. He's won seven championships he he dearly and and really truly wanted to win. An eighth to break the record that that one crash not by the way with Kansas, who who's probably is closest friend on the grid knocked him out of the playoffs. So he will not have the chance to win the eighth, which totally sucks but I and I tweeted it last night like to watch him go around and and to congratulate the winter go back to his old crew chief chat, chat canals do that's I would have done that. We all know that. No. I mean, that was class I mean and so Jimmy's a class guy and man it was it was just sort of as we were watching the race. It was I, think we're all just sitting there stunned and silence in like oh no. He was on right there on the bubble but was running good towards the race anyhow. Anyhow class guy and yeah let's get him in here. Big Bike Rider folks by the way probably knew that. Some point I think there's going to be been there. There's the man there's the man, a lot of those guys I rode with him at. Daytona and a bunch of the drivers and a lot of their crew are traveling with road bikes and they do a big group ride. Well he's the he's the strongest the ball of them say that's I've gotten a lot of criticism and grief and rigging about the fanny pack At some point in the show I'll give an the and there's been high demand for just how the setup works between the fanny pack the phone, the cable the just I will explain everything easy. See I'm already sort of half prepared to to show it off but your whole setup remind me a lot of what you just mentioned the flip phone the. You know maybe I should have a flip phone in here. That might complete the. The whole the whole get up. I think you need the visor with colored plastic out to finish out. All right. Well, we're now. Let's talk about stage shoot. It didn't disappoint. I, loved watching look the sun came out. So we were able as fans and viewers to really appreciate the beauty of the south of France and when I and again I've told Y'all I lived there my whole career when people think about the south of France, they really think about sort of Connie's Monaco that that the call the board mayor you know the seafront, all these famous towns and fancy hotels and fancy cars and fancy. Restaurants it just get two or three miles in. It is completely rugged and it boy it showed off today the descent of the Tarini it was it. It looked like a video game. I mean, it was absolutely stunning anybody sitting at home, and once we get out of this Dan Pandemic I'll tell you that's the place to go take a bike trip. Those are the best roads in the world I get asked all the time. If you could go ride anywhere, where would you go? And it's always the south of France and you gotTa get away from the coast because there's a lot of cars. Soon as you get inland nobody, there was rumblings this morning about perhaps filming the show in southern France next year. Would love that but might be a bit challenging would be fun. Though might be might be but hey, why are you talking about those roads I couldn't help but notice almost every time they cut to it I, know you've both in those words ally and you live right there. But. It's not only the hairpin turns on descent but a huge retaining wall like there's no give. Meaning walls, I just saw it all day throughout that part. Of France, those roads were probably built pushing a century ago you know the first phases of them. So that's that's the way they that's the way they did it back then it is just gorgeous. They weren't built for bike races, but they are some amazing rose to train on and as you see, most of the top guys live down there for that reason. Yep, you know we we had in a quick shout out the Georgian. Gabby his prediction came true. Alpha League won the stage takes the Yellow Jersey. I didn't know, but apparently his his father passed away recently. So you saw him emotional at least that's what they were saying on TV emotional at the finish line But yet George congratulations we're gonNA break down I'd like to break down finish towards the end of this show but I think we we need to hit on what happened early with the breakaway. I was trying to get there many times. We see this wake up in the morning, the breakaways established, but as you and I know that's like an incredibly difficult task is to get into the breakaway. You saw today some of the top guys in the bunch Thomas Kuhn's next team rider remind. Peter Sog on there. Really really legit strong guys which indicates how hard actually was to make that breakaway can can lead that out of the mix now and and. I am now as as I have said every day I'm a huge fan. Fan. I'm now worried going on the record I noticed something today, and if you go back and rewatch the footage he he's he's not he's not doesn't this sounds Corny or a too simple but he's not sitting on the bike ride like and his I think back to. My career. I remember guys as they got older. I'm not saying peters getting older but he is slightly older as they get older. They just start to sit on the bike wrong and they start to kind of creep in crab to one side remembers Albert the end of his career I mean he he was basically sitting sideways on the bike seat I'm like dude. Maybe time stop but he he just. He was he was he was something wasn't right either. He looked today but I mean, this is one of the guys that I don't know if you've seen his training videos, the guy's A. Gym Training Phenom I mean the stuff he doesn't Jim is a pretty incredible. So I'm hoping it was just a bad day today but who knows also he might have just tried to get in the breakway to have an easy ride at the end. I mean this guy this is not I think what you're what you're saying and he's thirty by the way we I think what I'm hearing from you is it's like this is a this was not just a today. Of. How he's writing this is A. Getting older well, informed Yeah we've seen this in it happens right you guys just. The you just get up there not not that you get older or you lose everything but got you look going GonNa talk at the end of the show about this young generation that that is not a breakaway that the normal the real Peterson guy gets dropped from I'm sorry he doesn't get dropped from that group ever and so I mean I in fact, I had him. Making it over those climbs with the. Front. Group. Staying in the pelivan making an the old Peterson gone. Or the one that. was so dominant three or four years ago he makes it over in that group no problem. I'm going back to my what I said early on when we were doing the July show is all these guys react differently from training some guys need more racing than training some guys can pull it off by just training. I think Peterson is one of those guys that needs a ton of racing and he's to just get hopefully better throughout the France. Well time will tell time will tell but George congratulations it was. Let's just jump into because I. Think we have now and we've talked about on here before this generation of call it twenty four and under, and it's so funny because in in cycling it's they call it under twenty three's you. Used to be in our day that would have been amateur and then you turn pro I mean we have we've made a list of these guys that are, let's just call it under twenty four and we have to add to that list today I mean this this this the Swiss Kid Matt Hershey are Mark Martin Hershey mean I've never heard of this guy I mean did you see him cover that move? He covered that move with the fingers in his nose yeah. On the way he the way he bridged up to that move was well, just bridging up sally was very impressive and. by the way, not a panic and he was the U. Twenty three world champion. So that's you know he's got he's got Paul Mars but you go between Bernal pogue HR MVP ARAMCO KARA says if folks this is cool for for the future of cycling agreed and there's a lot of young guys coming up there that are. Racing like the pros for forever and mean today I think we should start from like right before the cold is which have done a ton of times used to live right by there. On that climb yet but you saw a lot of the different tactics going on with Jumbo B.'s taking control early onset. SETINA. Big Pace there And any os I think there's sort of a mental battle going on this show who stronger who can control the race better and they're racing. So aggressive, I mean, we've actually we've actually heard that some of these guys some of these teams racing as if the Tour de France is going to be nine days long in case hopefully, not I mean we have I mean you you don't just brush over that 'cause you brought it up today when we again you can choose or not choose to name your sources but you brought this up when we were watching the stage I said, what? What the fuck, what are you talking about? This is. I mean and they actually mentioned serious statement. Yeah. I've heard rumblings about it and like I said knock on wood we hope it doesn't happen. But if they're if the race does get cancelled after nine days, ten days, the person leading that day is declared that. You're suggesting that if there's too many covid breaks within the Peleton. Yeah there's a whole round of testing on the first restaurant. Yes. Correct. We're hoping that does not happen. I'd hate to see that happen because this is gonNA be. One of the most exciting toward as we've seen in a long time. So well on the heels of last year at ending early with Bernal earning it without. Bit Again Back Hang on backup there. But you're hearing this from from somebody on the inside that that is actually talking about the way they're choosing to race this race early on because the general or at least maybe the general consensus is that this thing gets stopped and again we're not let's not pull the firearm yet even put our hand on the fire alarm but. That would change the way that you would race the first week of the tour. If you thought absolutely, you're seeing them why else would team young mode spent so much energy in the front ineos going to the front. In Times, where it would be not as important in a three week raise, it doesn't seem like they're holding back right now as much as they would normally in such a hard tour de France. Well okay. But if it does not get and fingers crossed that it doesn't, but if it continues on. Then, the third week is just going to be Armageddon for everybody for everybody I mean already, it was guardless. Getting. Big Day for the Americans in my opinion today we saw TJ which. In My. You don't love seeing him doing the work early on before the Goal Dad's but put it out there on the line for the education team the Nielsen Palace, an awesome attack at the bottom of the cold as in his first of France not scared obviously super cool to see that cost setting the pace near the top of the cold as I mean unfortunately. I think he was taken out by that crash but incredible riding by. Didn't think we'll see a lot of. Fingers in the nose epcos this kid was as. Even, trying like he looks so good. Looks so good and he's got a great head on his shoulders and I think one of the best talents we've seen coming out of the American and just so you know to to to just to prove a point with you George yesterday. So George Bennett bit actually lost time today. Yeah. So your Elijah that you had for him yesterday is no longer an idea. That was an idea and the reason he lost time today was he was he was dead from the crash. Because he crashed again yesterday. We don't need to go around around about this but. I was GONNA. Ask you guys what it's like for. Twenty twenty one depends on if they're real ager race age right but mark here she had met I mean just put yourself in that place being that young and you're looking for right and left in its Yates Allah Philly you can probably gotta be going Holy Shit Oh for sure that's a big moment for him. That's one of those moments where you just kind of pinch yourself but speaking of looking right and left, he have looked left when he was looking right because that that's when he lost the wheel with Alpha leap is not slow clearly he the starting to come around him but he he got gapped off when Ella Felipe started the Sprint Gel, which is Also in also was miss geared and so it just he just split-second just missed. A leaps. Acceleration and that was what cost in the race. Well, that would have been a big story. Yeah. That would be a young. Swiss kid. Well, he's going. To beat Alpha get your first. That would imagine that talking about pinch yourself by the same the same on the same breath I mean Alex had all the pressure in that sprint and for him to have that composure, pull off the win by a couple of centimeters just incredibly impressive not only that but Adam San. Amazing right today he bridged up to that breakway fingers in the. Nose I think they had about ten seconds caught them within a couple hundred meters immediately, I don't know if you noticed dominate he wasn't writing that. Well, I kind of had the feeling where he was holding back. So I did reach out to another one of my sources and he was sick before the dauphinee. So they they told him not to push himself too much the. which turns out was a great idea because he's gone crazy good form right now in Rhode away from everybody on that climb today and. Didn't incredible rights. We're GONNA see a lot more from him in the next I wanNA stages some point it might next life I want to come back with as many friends. George. He has. been on here. Right. It's yeah. I. Mean it's it's I'm so proud of you that you have accumulated so many friends that tell you so many. Inside baseball things that I don't have that could you manage all the texts and calls? Keep sliding. Right I. Love. What I do too. I do too. We'll take care of Scotia more business before we. Keep going here today show also brought to you by amp human. So this is the PR lotion. This shit I'm telling you absolutely works funny enough. The first person whoever brought me, Pr Lotion was Jimmy Johnson. He brought it over and he said these these guys are making. This is early days they make this this bicarbonate cream. NSF that can't work. There's no way. Well, guess what I was totally wrong I mean this company and I anybody that's ever used PR lotion will attest you've got teams in the Super Bowl using it teams in the Stanley Cup when Kip Shoghi ran one, fifty, nine, he used at the last three winners of the tour used it. It absolutely works. This is the new formulation much. Thinner and and more like a body lotion. The other cool thing is they just got a government grant, actually three government grants for a million and a half bucks from the Department of Defense. The air. Force. I mean those those those guys and gals aren't throwing around grant money to people that have things that don't work Really really proud of this team at camp head over to amp human dot com slash the move use the bike code the move twenty five for twenty five percent off your next purchase and there's also the code last one of the day. And I just had to open up and showed we George. We talk about the feed right we talk about how in bike races riders curate their feedback what bar they want what blood but drinks they want but whatever they want the feed came along, and this is one of these. We always like why the hell did we invent this right like we should. We should have invented this idea as as as a company as as a product as A. As a platform and so the cool thing. So they've got the new the got the tour pack and they're calling it the tour packs. So they sent me the pack and this I just have to read it so. And this is amazing. So this is the tour pack, but but it actually says. Something in their special for me talking about having friends, it says highlands and the move team enjoy our twenty twenty Tour de France box lance everything in the big box is to help you kick Georgia's ass this year on the mountain bike. Loved the feed. Is that you gotTa love that they did not send you one of those. Yeah. The feed did send me a bunch of immune stuff early in the year two for myself and my children which was I'm very appreciative of. So thank you guys at the feed team feed ten percent off. If you want the tour box head on over to the feed, Dot Com to buy code is the move. There's the flow code. If you WANNA make it easy for yourself and yeah see I got friends. I got friends. Well. Should we talk about tomorrow? Should we what else should I give a demonstration on the fanny pack before we get into tomorrow? That for last, save it for last. Okay we'll see. Ya think we can touch a bit more actual sprint. Where they're coming onto the you know they're they had twenty seconds. The PELETON is raging on the guys within the actual team. Car were telling US telling me that they didn't think they'd make it because of the headwind you didn't think they'd make it because of the big roads coming in, but they worked together really well, and with a category, they kind stopped working together looking at each other Adam, Gates even said in the interview that he knew there was no chance to beat Alla. Felipe. But Hershey, I mean, he had a great great chance of winning and road with confidence and just made that tiny mistake where he gave about five or five, ten foot gap from Alex leap and that's all with leave needed to take advantage of that and take the win and wasn't in the right gear and wasn't he saw. But he started he came with speed. So had he been a bit more alert? I mean, he definitely had a good chance of winning that sprint. So. We have to watch. Now put him on our our list art are mark. Hershey. Right, you're on our list now buddy that's a big deal. Tomorrow seconds just two seconds. Twenty I think the most they had was twenty one seconds at that point you're thinking yes George was fully confident but you all you know they're always gonNA cat and mouse at the end. There's always going to be that that strategic as w once said. So it was. A bonus. At, the top which going back a bit to do I, do want to address the crash on the last climb mean super tough moment of the race my boy, my pick for the over wind Mulan gets taken out by Kutowski still able to come back and catch group and finishing the first group came back easy came back easy which was quite impressive to see I mean that is about as hard to get to come back after a crash like that up and we were discussing earlier before the show started, which of the G. Favorites did not make that first group. and. Pretty much everybody. made it. I. Mean we're Martinez didn't make it. He had a big crash coming down the cold as unfortunately caught backup right before the final climb. That's a big effort to come back there at that moment in paid for dealing on the last climb help. But notice the Tibo piano was was suffering of there were what was he? He was on there. He was still there, but but he has that expression always but we was in the blast corps tile of that group. He was that he he paid today for yesterday's carnage Johnny. Don't know what that what the residual effect is, but he did not look good. In our back to sleep and the Yellow Jersey and he could be there which I want to know from you guys you what we saw with Alpha fully last year just denied everybody again and again, and again staying in yellow tomorrow tomorrow's a tough day which you guys can break down. Can he stay yellow for add to that Georgia's theory of people thinking of it as a nine day race. That my view is they're gonNA like they did last year they'll do everything they can to protect that Jersey in light of what George said there's some other things and I don't want to go down this rabbit hole because I fucking hate this and cycling but there's other things going on that team there's other rumors and Innuendo and speculation and Stop there they will want to to to bury that right on that. Yellow. Jersey that will bury it. So yes, they are going to fight and try his best to keep the ice rink and I know you guys are going to go over this with Johan later on on your show and Lambie the. But tomorrow typically would be a huge breakaway because it's such a hard dave for to control for one team. But we have so many limited sprint stages that I could see the sprint teams collaborating tomorrow and help them control the whole day in such a long way between the. Between the last climb in the finish with a big flat run in that we're GONNA. See a lot of collaborations among the spring team to make it a sprint finish. So can I go ahead and give my pick I again or? Sure since I, already I already got today's pick I'M GONNA go with Zola. For, for. Tomorrow. That's. Yeah I'm not I'm I'm taking a break from picking people but I will tell us they had eleven thousand feet of climbing today. I got eighty three hundred feet tomorrow. So that's not. That's hard and and and by the way it's a long one, hundred, Ninety, eight kilometers. the following day. They've got almost ten thousand feet. This is this is GonNa be so epic and maybe we didn't appreciate it when we talked about it months ago but. This is GonNa be interesting so at but yeah, I, mean. But Watch this I mean they're going to keep this thing to these sprint teams will keep it together and all of a sudden while. Venar it's GonNa come through and say thank you very much seeing the dossier says that's picture. All right got. Yawn speculate you'll have to tune in to the following show to get Johann take on it and whether it'll be a breakaway or sprint if the sprinters will control it like you think I, think they're gonNA definitely control it. We read for the fanny. Pack I think I think we're. So I got a lot of grief about the fanny pack. And? It's just you know you get older and it's just you don't give a shit anymore about what you look like or what people say or it's all about convenience. By the way, I was moving my daughter into her dorm at the University of Colorado with all the other. You didn't have any pockets did I had. Yeah. But then the weights you down like just like my shorts I like my shorts to just be shorts and I don't care what you think. George I don't care what any McGinty said I. don't Care What anybody on instagram when I cargo shorts went out of fashion that was devastating to dad's everyone, and here's the thing in the in in just a touch on the cables like the cable have these cans can't do but when it's in The air pods for starters, I have a pair pods. They're really annoying to the person on the other end of me being the respectful person that I am to everybody else in the world I want it to be a good experience news to me other end of the phone call. But also when I'm just got my playlist going, they got this thing and you just a little double tap and I got shit for doing the snowmass fifty the other day with these on. But when I'm hammering on the single track, it's easier to skip tracks with this double tap. So here's what I do. So I've got got the the fanny pack. I've got a phone in in my fanny pack and I have like I. Won't show you what a haven't here. I got my wallet I've got some chapstick. Some Ben Gay I've got some. And then it just here and that's all you gotta do I mean. This is how I'm telling Y'all can laugh all you want. If. You just try it once you will never go back. Now who the fuck reduce picture up. Okay. This is not nice. And by the way, if I would have no problem wherein shoulder thing like that. But the just the fanny pack I prefer the shoulder purse. I. Didn't see that that was from hangover with the SATCHEL. And that's from our friend SEAN TO NEO more out of Florida. Yeah. Thank you. Sean. But here's the thing like just the all know and this is the last thing you say about this I actually cool I'm for sure the best looking one there. Yes, but. I got that's what happens when you get to be Bradley Cooper in the back but. When I posted that picture with grace on instagram like no part of me thought this is where I am at in my life. No part of me thought Oh. No I've got a fanny pack on the cables I'm going to look like a geek that never even crossed my mind. I don't give a shit I'm all about convenience and moving through my day is seamlessly as possible and fucking buying low and selling high. What we care about you that's why we had to point it out. Karabakh Bro. I appreciate that. All right, well, good weather as I said, good weather system. So we don't I love talking about weather just because it. I think it affects so many things but anything else absolutely not disappointed so far has been full of. And I think we're going to continue to see more and more of that and super excited ready for tomorrow's date and the deeper we get into the tour. I you know the more Johansen tactics come into play or if you want to catch that show as well, it's the same feed is you know the move feed wherever you get your pocket and the greatest mind that ever ever looked reflected are talked about the sport. So head over to his show, and then he does it again in Spanish, they're all teammate. Victor. Hugo Pena. Deron Lama Vida. So thanks for tuning in. We look forward to seeing and bar talking to y'all and Y'all whatever by the way I remember seeing us. That's the best part also. The members got a live version of me showing how to do the fantasy like that is a big deal sign up. Deal.
1984 music countdown with guest Carmel Holt
"How are you today and doing great today. How are you. i'm feeling good feeling really good. Welcome to the. What difference does it make. Podcast crowd member of the pantheon. Podcast families go pantheon. And we're continuing our countdown. this week. We are going from number ninety two number eighty one of the k rock countdown from one thousand nine hundred eighty four and we are doing the one. Oh six point seven pop songs of that year just kind of taking a look at it in the past. We've it's just been holly i and now we're starting to invite in some of our favorite people and this is certainly the case. I've been a big fan of carmel. Halts for a long time. I listened to her at wf uv and just her presence and just her engagement with the music. It's always wonderful. There's always a treat to hear her voice and i was actually kind of disappointed when she left. I what what what's going on is happening. Why are you. Why are you ripping carmel away from me. But as it turns out is she. She's got plans. She is actually as i opened up my email yesterday. The number eight most powerful person in the triple a universe according to take according to paul mars lack and his top twenty two. This celebrated carmel holt of the syndicated. Radio show xiros. Welcome carmel ache you so much great to be here. Thank you dave holly new Thank you so much for all those kind words. Dave like are crying again Day i was crying already for tears. Happy tears that's what i'm saying. Yes yes that's so nice to be here. Thank you for inviting me. Yeah so yeah. The cool thing though now is with a syndicated show. Is you know people not necessarily in new york all over the country you can hear you tell us a little bit about xiros. What is the idea behind it. what i did was basically take the two things that i know which is play listed music an interviewing and put them together into an hour show whose mission is to amplify and celebrate women in music but in a way that raises awareness about the lack of equality on the airwaves both on the hosting side and the programming side those behind the scenes and on the mike at the radio stations and also in the playlist and in the music business in general and so what to do is to provide listeners as opportunity to hear something that they don't normally hear there's all these baked in rules for some reason of programming where you're not supposed to play two women on the air back to back you're not supposed to have two female deejays on the air back to back. This is somewhere some. I don't know how this came into being. But this has been a rule. And so i'm trying to subvert that With this show and also just give listeners know because it's like you don't even know this is so baked in. You've always heard it this way. You're not even aware that it's something that you're missing so Rather than just trying to be an echo chamber of like this is for for ladies. This is really for everybody. I'm just saying. Hey there's all this music that you're not hearing. Because of these strange baked in rules music would be better for everybody if it was a more level playing field. There's also a new show launching in the spring back circling back to sonos on their player. Which will be launching in march same team same theme different different Format that's very exciting. Yeah when did you become aware of the rule because you were music director. I mean you know this. Unwritten rule that everyone knows about. But you know of course you. Probably your first question is why. And they'll so bizarre. I don't know i never have yet been able to find out the reason why you know it's interesting because so i'll answer your first question. When did i first become aware of it. I was aware of it. Basically from the beginning. I started in radio right out of college and I was a musician myself. And so i was on the other side of things where i was already coming up against barriers and challenges and frustrations and then when i got into radio i learned. Oh wow wait. This is like not any different from being over there. I'm over here and it's still that way but yeah i myself. Unfortunately because i didn't get to make the rules. I just had to follow them. You know. I programmed a radio station for you know for eight years in one place and then six years in another and had to follow those rules myself and it was painful to do so rita. Houston your was your pd. The you worked with her. Was this a conversation you had between the two of. You must've like i really want. This is an artist i love. Why can't we play here or why can't you know there are four new this week. That are all women. I'd love to play all them. Why can't i play them on my show in you know at this time. So what was that discussion. The radio station You know as most aaa stations are Are programmed know. They're programmed redeem jays. Don't have there are a few exceptions to this. You know i think k. xp and maybe the current minneapolis have a much more open playlist but in most cases radio. This is kind of like the peek behind the curtain. There is a music director. That's plugging in you know. There's there's a program and new songs get added as well as old ones and there's percentages that are calculated by a program. Then there's a human element of like massaging those things and making sure that things sound good right but basically You're dealing with you know a stack of paper your logs every day and the music is already loaded in for you. I i had very very little say in what actually got on the air and even music meetings where i sat in a room with three or four. Other people Yeah unfortunately i never got a good explanation. Those rules were always pretty much followed. I mean i think. Suv of any station You know that. I knew of was the most adventurous in that way in terms of gender balance and over. I know it was something that really cared about. We still ended up kind of following that rule more or less. I'm taking out a project this week. Dave and i make some calls and a really wanna know where this originated in. Why like to the constitution. Why can't this be changed people. When he touched people listening is different. If we were listening when we listen to the radio now it is no longer jarring to hear two women. In a row two females around and as far as jobs go the average listener wouldn't really notice it. I will say that Two things one is that ninety percent of program directors number nine zero ninety percent of program directors at radio stations across formats are male and white and also because in radio we. Oh we're in a game where even public radio we're in a ratings game. There's this whole thing about getting money. It's weird to make money and so when ends up happening is because of the idea that familiarity builds right it. It builds Allegiance in your listeners. Builds comfort people come back because they want to hear things that they've heard and they want to discover new music when there's market research done and people are not used to hearing female voices. What do you think is going to happen. What songs do you think are going to quote unquote test. Well if they are not accustomed to hearing female voices on the air. Do you think that they're going to rate higher. Something that they feel comfortable with with a male voice because there are more accustomed to hearing that or do you think that they're going to rate higher female voice. What do you think is going to happen. It's the logical thing so we ended up in this self perpetuating pattern now where the suits consultants et cetera. Say but we've done the research meals. Just don't test well and there you go it. Just kind of perpetuates perpetuates so then the then the program directors can wash their hands of it and say i don't know i mean we would love to but we have to be able to sell it for song and dance l. It that's right. Yeah so so we have some you know we have some work to do. I think we're in a better place now than ever. And fortunately unfortunately with all of the pushing in the past year during the pandemic black lives matter for diversity and inclusion. This conversation is up in a big way and that gives me hope you know. I think that people are way more aware and open to having these conversations and open to you know kind of doing some self reflection. I'm also doing a steady With the a few women from the uk and And here in the states to actually get statistics on this Because it's one thing to kind of have anecdotal evidence and then it's a whole other thing to actually have the hard numbers. Let's actually analyze this. We're gonna look at the last five years of airplay across formats every format that we can touch In the united states in radio and actually see what's happening there that's fantastic. I'm here that i would love to hear the results. When it said it will set and done it will be published. I promise name sure our wait so let's take a turn to. Let's go back in time. I am and so sound effect here. I know we're gonna haro whatever. Yeah we're gonna talk about. some of. These songs were played on k. Roku in the early eighties. I'd actually let's go back a little bit for you hermel. What what was your first radio station that you remember or personality. What did you listen to on the car going to whatever middle school or whatever you what was happening. I grew up in a house. I i grew up in an npr household. I was the i'm first generation. My parents were both jewish intellectuals from israel in europe and bills into classical music and npr news. That was it. So i grew up with the all things considered That was nice childhood soundtrack. there there's funk. But i discovered popular music when i was probably five or six because i was gifted a rack system for my birthday. That was like a radio shack with the turntable on the top. And the tuner on the front and eight track and so. That's where i started to listen to more popular music and i don't remember specific person the only personality i remember. I remember to wolfman. Jack and doctor demento both of them i l when casey kasem syndicated much like yourself much. You're you're going down the casey kasem route. This is exciting. Maybe we'll have a xiros countdown every week. Do you remember like the i. I love to ask the first album. Yuba author single. Maybe maybe a poster that you had up on your wall. Okay no posters. That wasn't really loud. But but but but. I do remember the first album that i actually bought. My first records were all beatles. Records handed down for my big sisters So i grew up on the beatles but the first album that i actually went to a record store and bought was madonna's first record that right about that choice still holds. What and you still have it. Yeah i do actually good. I have that and speaking of one thousand nine hundred four. I do have my original copy of prince purple rain. Did you get to see a rated r. movie you know that was raided art. You see it in the in. The theaters are i. Don't i don't think i saw it no i. It was many years later. That i actually saw the movie. I was too young. It's tough to watch now. Sometimes it's a little little misogynistic but still like like everything in the eighties. I know goes back but come into the but still yeah but those performances are amazing. Okay we're talking to our favorite shiro. That's carmel and we will a break right back. welcome back. To what difference does it make and our very special guest on this episode. Carmel holt enough chitchat. Get to the heads down. The countdown begins all right. So we start with number ninety. This is that's love that it is. This is the first of three songs that are on the k rock list. And i will ask holly and you can. You can chime in if you like. K rock now has their rock of the eighties format and they paired it down to eighty songs so they chopped off Twenty five twenty six point seven songs. I'd like to quiz holiday to see if she thinks it's still on the list if it's still relevant did you. By the way. I gave you a cheat mike marrone and tossed it aside did you. Did you study ecorse okay. Good repairs appears show. Good been trained to prep always. Of course sir go all right good perfect. All right did not know this band blancmange. This band was again on. K rock really big especially in eighty four. This was the the pd back. Then was freddy snakeskin and he found a lot of his albums through just digging through crates of albums and he liked to go through the real name object to the trash records and people thrown out but he he liked going through the imports. it was k. I played a lot of imports. So this was one of those and it kind of was something l. a. Took to where did you. What did you think of this me. Yes i loved it. Yeah i i kind of went down the rabbit hole. Oh this oh really cool. And what did i think i was like. Oh yeah they're kind of like Like a poor man's depeche mode or something. This was actually before. Yeah well yeah they start actually out around the same time they were coming up so yeah can still last year. Wasn't it typically do job. That's right yes yes and hedwig were your thoughts of. Do you remember the song i game. I'm gonna reiterate again is so funny. I left nineteen eighty-four music and character. It reminds me how much i lead the music. It reminds me of signs that i have lost since forgotten and i like. Oh my gosh. I i liked similar videos. Couldn't find i listen to but the videos. I couldn't find because i love looking at them too. I love a good mullet and hair. Yeah but diedhiou dave. Do you remember the song i think. Carmel hit the nail on the head with a poor man's depeche mode. But yeah this album. I think they were. They were building up this this following in l. a. and m. They seem yeah. But they wasn't played on mtv so it felt like uniquely ours. I think and that's why there are three songs from blancmange on this. This al for that to maybe. This was a west coast thing. Because i didn't really but anyway it wouldn't have been odd for me not to be aware of them from this time but i will say That there's a lot of eighty s music. That i missed my. I want to say kind of the first time round. I'm putting that in air quotes then. Once i became a programmer and a radio personality i rediscovered at or discovered for the first time so much like i kind of like had a renewed love affair with the eighties because i i was like. I wish that i i was there. You know just two little. Yeah but yeah. That's kind of the fun thing especially when you hear new music. There's a lot of new artists coming out and it reminds you of something you've heard long ago and then you're like. Oh that touched on this band did. That is a long long time ago. And they're doing their own unique takes. It's it's fun and and that's one of the reasons we do. This is because it is kind of lost classics. So i will have collie. Is this song still on the charts. Now it's not. What do you think carmel would still be on the list with this song. Still be on the list the damn list. The list of became rocks on. Do you think this one is still unidentified off now. I don't think so. That is correct. This is no longer on the list. I will say though. There are going to be some surprises. Some songs you might think would be on the list like this but they took off completely all right. So this takes okay holly. Did you say something. Just wanted to comment that that carmel made about depeche mode will find that in a lot of these songs are reminiscent of depeche mode. That's not that that is not surprising. But what's interesting is like how there can be you know of a moment of an era so many bands kind of like tapping into the same. Whatever it is in the in the air you wanna say right but also some of it just being purely a time. Capsule of what instruments were like. There are a lot of these instruments like synthesizers and all things were like having and there was the newest and this right so everyone was kind of like grabbed this gravitational pull towards synthesized music and and i know like depeche mode. Why did they rise to the top versus mosh. Like who knows right is it. The songs was at the look was at the marketing. Yes yes yes. And he looked at dave. Do some bands win over the others if they all kind of are feeding from the same. Have you looked at dave gahan. Have you seen him if you see like you know what not. This is a humble brag. I interviewed him or not. Is the nicest person ever. He's so amazing. He's so amazing and he also is still handsome. Yeah a couple of years. As i saw them live at the hollywood bowl and i hadn't seen them in many many many years and they were they put on such a great show. You receive your doubts about Bans being able to put on a great show of. You're used to seeing you know five piece guitar to guitars. And but they put on such a fantastic show and his voices. Their voices are still great. Amazing you write great songs to yes. It is the power of the front threes right to the top. Okay all right. We banner way there. Yeah we answered our questions. Great songs and greet frontman great performances and sincere so wonderful that shakes us up to number eighty nine. Now we talk about the look and so this this kind of crack me up looking at the video for elvis costello's the only flame in town. I mean it. It was very very much eighties. This is from an album cal. Goodbye cruel world and i don't know if you've ever bought the nineteen ninety five cd reissue. Elvis says congratulations. You just bought the worst. Elvis costello album ever released but break-up at the time extra bad feelings about it but smith attraction this yeah so yeah this was. This was the last album. I think the full lineup of elvis gusto attractions problems with the recording. The album of what direction they want to go. But i do like this on the only flame in town. Do you remember the song carmel. Not at all not at all. Not only do i not remember it but it never you know. All the elvis costello you know catalog. It's never shown up in a playlist. I it was completely off my radar. That sounds about right. Because i mean i think this is an album as i just said that he wasn't that proud of like on reissues or greatest hits. There's something you you know. His his catalog is so huge and so strong that even though this was a charming song i mean a upon listening to it now for some reason. I put this out of my mind there. It's it's features daryl hall on background vocals. Oh no me neither. Yeah that is a very good trivia. He is in the video as well. So it's kind of funny just seeing them interacting together and it's yeah it is kind of of that time with a sack solo and all that stuff. It's super eighties. So as someone who doesn't remember that song. And probably as i'm going to assume you love elvis costello and his cadillac. What gore. yeah. Who doesn't hello all right so i liked the song. Okay it didn't like flora me. I wasn't like ooh hidden gem that i now discovered it was fine. It was now the song yeah does inwardly completely completely. Pretend you're in philadelphia and you're grading. Sean cokely's talking about okay. So i think that's funny for that's a little inside baseball. But there's an annual conference in philadelphia at w. x. p. n. And our friends sean. Coakley does these music meetings whereby it's so fun. Actually it's my favorite thing He plays these snippets of new songs. Sometimes it's bhai new artists. Sometimes it's by artists. We don't know but he doesn't reveal who it is or or what the song title is or anything about it. We just listened to like a snippet and then everybody has these cards and we great them. Raider record It can get pretty interesting. People get like really agro sometimes. Anyway i guess i was putting up a card for this. Probably give it a five. Yeah there you go all right we say when something is finally yeah. It's it's just fine perfectly acceptable fine. It's a it's a song fine. It's a little bit more than just a song. Maybe i should give it a six. It was a fine because it's elvis. It becomes a six. Yeah okay all right. So holly where do you say as i know you remember this song and you have probably some nice memories of it. Of course i do. It is not my favorite elvis song. And i can go either way about whether it is on the top eighty. I wanna see. I wanna say yes you want to say yes and are you are. You are saying you answer yes okay. This is no longer on the list. Oh okay for two but do you like. Do you still like the song i mean does this would. I would imagine you'd think more of it. You know because we've heard it time in the eighty s sunny. I think i left because it was a elvis song. I was just i made. Maybe i was programmed to. Because i love him. But it's a little better than fine for me so happy to hear it again. Because i hadn't heard it a long time but they don't love it like i said it's not my i like it a lot. Don't let it. This was a little more specific. Sure i think this was after punch the clock and everyday i write the book so this is like their next album. And yeah you know. It's those are those are high. Those are high marks to hit right exactly. it's okay to have a little slump. There is done a lot of great. Were crying saying that. Oh not getting you know super excited about it. But but it's okay and he was making the transition as well. You know you had those those new wave those first four records and now he's going to like this smooth jazz type salad. So it's you know shut which which was of that of the mid eighties. That was kind of what everyone was going for. Just hit the nail on the head. If he feels about it. Why do we have to feel bad about not getting so excited. Our finding move moving on moving on all right number eighty eight general public general public. This is by the band. General public and the song is called general public. Holly do you remember this song. of course i do. I love the sun. I like general public. Steve wake ringing rankin. Roger their sound will always be significant of the time. Also let them i remember. The song confided video the research. This wasn't a single. This was again something that k rock did they like to the general public kind. Likeable blancmange. this was you know the first couple of songs singles hit. And so what else can we play and they like to dig into the album and play something deeper and so. That's that's where this came around. This was not something that i was familiar with. General public kind of like a super banned in a way because there are members of dixies. Midnight runners tenderness. That's the one everybody knows. They kill essentials rights. Right and i i as i looked on wikipedia and i didn't realize that mick jones was in the band and credited in the album for for i don't know what he played on. Mick jones of the clash was was in general public for a little bit of time. Yeah i was surprised. Also i had no idea so and in the cheat notes i asked okay so this is general public and the song is general public. How many other songs that can you name any. There's a lot there are. Yeah there's totally a lot. I mean you just mentioned mick jones. So there's like this is radio clash. Sure i'll give credit. It can't say that company bad company The stray cat strut from by a stray cats. I cleaned killer queen wilco wilco. The song and wilco the album the monkeys the monkeys What else Bad religion bad religion. Belen exhaustion have of self referential song black sabbath black sabbath black sabbath the damn yankees green day Are you just doing this. Call the that we would also accept. They might be giants motorhead a big country. In right i listen. I i will say i have a little bit of an advantage here because i do. I used to do with themed Our called the mix tape. And also i did this when i was a wgst. It was called something else. But like noontime offer quest. Show and i would do themes every once and i would like tell listeners to like this is one that i loved and always did really well and so i've done this exercise more than once. It's fun mice so yes you did very well. I'm very impressed. I love that okay. So i'm gonna ask you holly. Is this still on the list and you say no. I didn't even get your take on this song. Carmel did you. Would you think of this school general public. I mean i just. I just don't know i just don't know there anything beyond. I've never taken the deep dive. So but yeah school english fictitional english feed. Yes but i didn't again. That was something that i discovered later. I wasn't. They weren't on my radar when i was a kid. When did you start going back. Usually into your own music for you know as as as you're a teenager and then sometimes in college you start going back or when when was it where he like starting to discover different eighties music. Or i mean probably when i started working at wgst because you know that was in the nineties and so our golds were from the eighties and the this. The radio stations started in the eighties. So so yeah. That was and. I started listening to that radio station. When i was in college before i started working there. So yeah that was when you know all kinds of things opened up to me. And i became friends with nic. Harcourt and you know he had the whole like british thing. You know so. Yeah that's when. I started to kind of get an education of like you know eighties but like cool eighties music. That wasn't pop up. Nik din introduce you to lamarche. Was he. I think that was a that. I can remember. Yeah yeah it's funny that you say that about pop music. Because steve i have had conversation. I have to have distinguished for him and continues to bring it up. I'm a fan of eighties. New wave pop music with spotty for me in the eighties. Let's say and for me. It's the style jack. So you know and some of ages well you know better than others. I'm just saying that you know for me pop. Music is a style gic from the eighties. Because that was what was on the radio when i was a kid but yeah also there for me. I like so. I was like i said ten eleven in nineteen eighty four and then by the time so those preteen when i became a teenager my whole lens for what. I was listening to sweat further back so i wasn't even like plugged into eighties music when it was actually happening. Because i started to get enthralled with sixties and seventies music. I became a hippie dead. So i was like her in a grateful dead in janice and allman brothers and all that stuff so again i kind of like missed a lot like i remember my friends being like super super psyched about you too and i was just like but it's nice that you get to discover it later on so you discover a whole is a catch up. It's like new whenever you discovered. It's so exciting. Even if you're not in the same moment with it so carmel jump in the van and you went to. Did you do the dead tour an okay. Are you kidding me man. I need a miracle. Your many believe me as fun. I consider myself very lucky. That's very cool. okay anyway. General public is not on the list anymore. We'll keep going. Let's keep moving along number ninety. Seven the psychedelic furs. Heaven carmel milton. Wow that was pretty cool. Psychedelic furs okay. So for me you do to. Oh god i love and like pretty in pink. Are you kidding me like that. Movie like psychedelic furs. I just have this association to like john hughes all those movies breakfast love and pretty paying and so. It's kind of an automatic. Like i just love it. I love his voice so much. I agree with you in in black tabby memories. That movies also. They're like they're intertwined. You touched on pretty pretty in pink. Who who is your guy in pretty in pink are you did you. Did you relate to duckie or are you a spader guy what you know who love duckie. Tuck yeah okay kidding me. Good good call okay. The underdog. I know but spader have the hair. He had everything he had the car. Everything going on there now. Okay but you know what he was a player. You recognize that immediately okay. Us is a player very could. Yeah i think we all agree that that having is pretty spectacular so we all loved this song. Is this song. Still on the charts. Everybody yes yeah yeah. Of course all right very good. I would go even further that i knew there will be more psychedelic songs on this chart that none of them have dropped off. Okay all right so Speaking of movies we move onto number eighty six banana cruel summer. Okay this song. I remember from one. Of course you did and you saw this in the theater to love it so much so so much. It definitely sounds really dated so thank that this song is an example of something that's age dwell but i feel like if somebody were to like cover it or do a remix totally chart in our people out there know an essence did a cover of this. That's not who. I'm thinking more like the x. Ax you know or like billie eilish war on kind of a bedroom type of sound. Yeah actually banana rama in the they did another version of this saga like a new jack. Swing which is kinda sounds like devos poison tattered at that cruel but anyway so they've they've remixed it a little bit but i'm sure yeah. Someone could give a good spin to that song recommend. I know a emphasis big in our house but this is a good. It's a good cover. It's she has a great way as just a beautiful place. I'll say again Anything banana remedy. As i understand that i agree with you about it. Being a little bit dated. I love them so much. I wanted to them. When i was living in the eighties. I wanted to be them. They were just so cool their clothes in their hair and they were coolest so anything probably could have come out of their mouth. I would have loved it. This song made up to number nine in the us at number forty four as a vh1 made it the forty fourth most popular song of the eighties. It lives on and thanks to karate. Kid have you watched. Are you watching cobra. Kai did you watch cobra kai right. I don't know i. I might have to try again. I got so like grossed out episode. i was like oh. I don't know i've heard it's really good though. Yeah okay so karate kid which the movie we love and still have fond memories of is it still. Is this song still on the list. Carmel what do you think like. I said i love this song i i and and its own style for me but i think as it is right now. It doesn't age. Well all right for gen-x this this is extremely well. It's now it was number. Eighty six back in eighty four now in this revised list. It's at number twenty two so we yes good. People of a certain age can never get enough of this song which which we just kind of mentioned okay. So let's keep going number. Eighty five is a flock of seagulls. The more you live the more you love and this was this is this will be our farewell to ever mentioning a flock of seagulls again. This was their last last charting song but still pretty good. I mean did you give it a listen carmel. The flock of seagulls song year course and you think it. I think i thought like okay. This sounds again. It was one of those general public. Where i don't really know the cannon to see like an appreciator necessarily like an enormous fan so it's hard for me to comment on an really feel like i'm coming from educated plays purely from a sonic standpoint. I mean i think it's a cool song. I've heard other songs by them. That i think Might be. I mean like they're hit like you know run right I read that john. Yes something about a flock. He goes i. It goes the credit i mean. Everyone thinks of mike scott and his hair. I think the lead guitarist which i had to look up. It's paul reynolds. He has like this. Great sal that. He gave to flock of seagulls during that that small period of time very unique. And i i really. I think that helps age these songs. Well i think we see. We've kind of touched on. What what what is aged well and what we can throw away. But i think probably because the guitar sound. It's still kind of draws you in. And i really. I really liked the song. Still hollywood what do you think. I had forgotten how much i i liked the song sun better than iran. Maybe iran just ran. Its course me by the song and do right about the sound at play the video from the first note. I just totally took me back. There's just something about it as a could something. Like the psych. Fers when you hear heaven like those. I sounds something that vokes great memories. And i think that flock of seagulls kind of touched on that now saying that is this on the list. I wanted to be. But i don't think it is. I'm going to assume. Carmel thinks the same thing and i'm going to tell you that. Yes it is not his no longer on the list number. Eighty four eurythmics. Who's that girl. I just can't even with a song are so good like i think. Is it fair to say that. They're underrated now. Like i feel like somehow they don't get the shine that they should but they are Mazing dave stewart's amazing. I mean they're both like what a power couple. what like. it's it's just. It's incredible. And i feel like their music really does stand up. I can't believe a also it. It made me remem-. I not remember. But i i remembered not from that time but like remembered from recent memory that they released two albums in one thousand nine hundred eighty three that it was here comes the rain again and touch. Keep both came out in nineteen eighty. Three which is like bonkers and So her who's that girls actually from. Nineteen eighty-three it's not an technically not in one thousand nine hundred four song just to be annoying about it but But yeah i bring it bring it anything. Eurythmics bring it. As far as i'm concerned. This is awesome song. And i love the video. Video is really great. Especially you know when we first met andy lennox so kind of this androgynous look and so the video kind of touches on that a little bit more. She's dressed up. As elvis kind of seducing the singer play off each other and there's dave stewart being now kind of has i think he played like the love interest. But it's fun because you look in you. Recognize the number of the of his people are sitting at the table with dave. It's a a number like old eighties artists. The members of banana. Hazel o'connor are familiar with hazel. O'connor at all she's worth looking into. She's a very power. There's a song. Eighth day that i think it came around early. Eighty s really great. Great powerful singer really good stuff. She's in there. Just a fun fun song that touches on so many different themes and i just love and i can't get like you said just can't get enough of it just can't get enough you know. So you mentioned banana-rich chablon fahey. That's in the video and she actually did. Marrying dave stewart appears later interesting. Yeah good tissue. Eighties eighties eighties. Sent kick. garner is in this video as well from hazy fantasia. Just a stunning beauty. That just happens the really quick cameo in this video games girlfriend. We love this song. Is this song on the list. Millions for some reason this is not on the list. Oh k rock yes. There's going to be a few well. I'll well well we move about you know but you can still play. I mean it still played. I think so. I think maybe it's played on classic hits station still and triple a. And you could still hear the song. Different places sweet dreams and here comes the rain again or you're missionary man. You know those things are. She's been amazing to follow by the way during the pandemic. I don't know if either of you follow her on instagram. but she's she's really been amazing. Just you know sitting No and singing. And just you know having these very heartfelt felt messages to people and Yeah it's been really cool. I will thank you. Yeah a lot of a lot of artists are kind of trying to reach. I think that's been one of the advantages now is like artists are trying to discover ways to connect and through social media. We've kind of you know even though it's not the same as seeing someone live and in person on stage but it kind of feels. A little intimate with your. You're literally stepping inside their house. And so a lot of lot of the third wall kinda coming down. So yeah okay. So let's move on to number eighty three the thompson twins. Doctor dr love it. You've have very fond memories of thompson. Twins totally totally. This is not the song though i mean. I like the really really like the song lot. But this is not the song for me right off. The out into the gap was the album that spawned all these hits and this yeah and it was one of the biggest albums of that year for sure. It's not hold me. Hold me out which we will which we will talk about later on this episode but but we are talking doctor doctor and i think this was the song that followed hoping now the follow up single still still very strong and still. I still love hearing this. I think it speaks to the production of the song. It's it's really really it's great. What about hollywood. yes also night. It's funny. I don't know i and we're we're renting again here but we talked last week about the song with the title track into the gap which i actually like better. I do like this on. And i do happen to think it remains on the top eighty one of the fact when i was looking at a just Prepping a list. I saw came up with a few more songs. That comparison singer love to a medical condition. So that's the thing behind the song. This is the besides that comparison being in love to medical state. Right right yeah. That's a good one very good. Which be alone is like the sickness and lebas secure right. that's right we talked about this last week. I've kind of curious as someone like a preteen did you thompson twins were on. They performed on live aid. Did you watch live aid. Do remember that and because the thompson twins were honest for live eight. I did not watch now. Okay because this ad live thompson twins saying the beatles revolution and madonna joined them on stage. Show like the twins. Were so big that madonna came on to be on stage with them. Yeah i did not have cable tv so i had to go to a friend's house to watch. Mtv even and it was like wow you know my friends have mtv. So yeah no. I didn't. I didn't watch it very good. Mtv was on musings everything. See thing. I miss those days. Because the portlandia episode where they try to bring back mtv. I realize vaguely remember. They like call up like penfield. Kurt loader what's her name martha plumpton. They get them all together. Not martha plumpton thank you and they. They got them all together and like go to the headquarters of icon and like try to make a case for back. Mtv pretty funny you should look it up. Nineteen eighty-four was the first year that they did the mtv awards right. Yes they still have that award show. Have you tried watching the empty. That's for us. I don't know what do you think of a worship will you want like grammy's does that I will always watch the grammys. Even though i think it's kind of bullshit. But i you know and especially intrigued. Now that i'm kind of like in this lane. Where i'm i'm kind of really focused on a quality gender equality and racial equality in music I'm very very interested in how you know. Just the grammy's has been fascinating to to watch. Just say yeah steady just to want you know from from a very analytical standpoint where the attention gets put who gets what who gets to present who wins what who gets the snubs. I was special. Ed especially during that depp. Up speech or something like that to to women or no narrow portnoy thank you l. a. Right but it was one of the things that kick started me in this direction. Yeah that's something that's that's great. Where they you mean. A lot of people took this negative this horrible thing that was spoken on national tv as and just recognize like oh i think it was very positive turning this negative into a positive i question. Yeah yeah was getting a little wakeup call. So that's that was very. That's good that so it's kind of moving in that direction. Let's let's continue our countdown with again. Guess what we get to talk about. This is a this was actually a b side. Now i'm gonna ask you have you back in the day besides the single where maybe a. Dft were you ever able to say. Oh this here's another saw. The single is our right. But i like this. This other song differ from the band. Yes yes and actually i was you know for. I was blessed in that way that for all of my radio career we definitely always always always looked for other songs and actually push back sometimes on on labels when they were pushing the single on. It didn't feel right and we listen to the album and found better songs and we didn't always play the game so So yeah very good and so did you give this song game above my head. This is the second of three lamar songs. What'd you think of this on. I mean just like the first one. I thought it was cool. I don't renault this band. You know so It was really it was a i. Listen so i would have to kind of revisit again. Enter really have a. I think and more context may be to formulate like a good like pro opinion on it. But i don't know if. I mentioned that doctor doctor is still on the list number. Sixty five is you'll be before we even started talking about this. You're very happy to know. So now i will ask about blancmange. Is this song on this list. The song that that leaves carmel. Kinda cold leaves this reviewer cold but do you think holly is still on the list. I like the song a lot. Go with yes. Even though i know there are going to be other songs from blige at that is going to remain on the top. Eighty that we haven't gotten to yet. But i wanna say yes about you're correct. This is on the list eurythmics. No lamarche throw the more. The merrier feather eurythmics sworn that was on. Yeah well we continue okay so this is going to be this. The last song of our list we've reached and this is probably one of my favorites. This is cindy lauper. She bob and i don't know this is just do all episode this well. I mean we watch the video again and and you just kind of fall in love again with just the energy that cindy lauper brings. She was meant for video ad. This she's so unusual was just a phenomenal record. It was just like nothing. We'd heard before but she was. It was something that we were. We were ready for. You know. And i i love that. She was just this huge personality. And i still to this day and at the time had really no idea that it was about masturbation even though you watch the video and it's it's all out there clueless but it's very obvious when you know when you watch the video. What are your thoughts. Carmel on cindy and this one this song she bop yeah. She's amazing and you know again. My my lens for the song originally was through the eyes of Preteen so you know. I had a much more innocent viewpoint than i did as an adult. So i would imagine she would be a preteen. She would appeal to you like you see this. And she's like this this oversize personality but just kind of glamorous and still a rockstar and singing. I would imagine that that might have appealed to you. She didn't hit me that way. But but i i. I appreciated her. Certainly you know. I i liked your music and videos were fun and she was fine. I think i was maybe in terms of like you know someone. People that captivated me I was probably more drawn to like madonna. I'm then i was andy. Lauper madonna was a madonna over team. Lauber okay not that. They were rival at all. But i think madonna was a little bit more of a bad girl and show you know and there was something like i think. I don't know this would be something kind of interesting to like. Do do a little you know. Think on a little bit or do more digging research on but like just off the cuff off the top of my head. I'm thinking like they were both rebellious. And they were both subversive. But i think that madonna was just so much more overt about it And outspoken and were brazen. And i feel like sitting offer more. Cartoony i think possibly maybe madonna for you felt more real really compare myself. I don't compare them their music. They even there the styles of music but cindy lauper was different. Not like a character or character but just she represented something different to me. I think she's the stronger singer than the madonna. She just phenomenal. Oh my god amazing. She said in the song that she was combining elettronica in rockabilly trying to bring those those elements together and so it kind of has that feel like she mentioned like when she she starts a song with who. that's kind of like her rockabilly. Like bop bop bop cool. The sun was on the nineteen eighty. Five's pm are see list of fifteen. Oh it must have been. Yeah i mean you know. I mean it was pretty blatant at this. You know what they were if princes Darling nikki masturbating magazine was that was on the list and cyndi lauper. She's alone in their car. And the the windows are steaming up. And it's just her and there with with the magazine. It's phenomenal truly a national treasure. I love her so much. So cool all right so that brings us. Oh is this on the list. Yeah carmel what do you think i will say. Who's that girl is not on the list as we talked with a hint. It's a huge hint. It's not it's not on the list. Now surprise you probably too big appear to who knows there. We go so. That's that's our ten song chunk. I wanted to give you an opportunity. Carmel out we last month. We lost rita houston from f. You can you give us some words about what she meant to you as a as someone did you did you consider her your mentor and Where does she bring the radio and when she bring into your life. Yeah i mean she was definitely my my mentor And she was also my family. Shes really close friend. you know. it's a huge loss. And for me personally. You know we hadn't worked together in a in a while you know because i left. Uv in in two thousand nineteen. So y you know when she when she passed. I felt quite lucky that we were no longer co workers that we had our relationship had shifted back into where we were just friends. You know that was a gift. Because i was able to really be there at the end. But you know i mean. She's a trailblazer and shoes. So so important so had such a pivotal role to play. You know it's like. I was thinking about this because the day that she died was a tuesday. And i i was doing you know i have so produced this weekly radio show now and it gets delivered out to radio stations on tuesday night and i was like i can't i cannot work i cannot. I was a mess. I was just got it. But i kept hearing rita and my head like telling me to like not like suck it up but just you know okay. You're you're grieving but like get back to work like there's time degree later this is this is somebody who lost her father and then two days later was on stage at the beacon theater. You know she all through her illness. She just never stopped never stopped working and there were moments where some of us were like. Oh my god like how can she keep going. you know. maybe she shouldn't keep going be resting. But it was like up to the very very end. You know and that taught me so much and i found myself coming back to that ethos when i was confronted with her death. It was like i was able to kind of like throw myself into my work and that was so healing for me. Yeah and so. I've just been reflecting a lot on. So i you know i dedicated that show I had an interview will come full circle to the start of this conversation where i told you guys that i sat and did a ton of interviews for a podcast that was never to be or at least not to be yet and half of the interviews were with women who were on the business side and i had been bugging rita for a decade or more to get her story down. Now you don't want to talk to me. Why do you wanna talk to me. Because you're rena fucking houston. That's why anyway i finally got my wish. And i interviewed her amazing for for xiros and then it sat in the vault because the podcast never came out all of a sudden there. I am the day that she died thanking. God now might be the moment. And i opened up and i listened to it for the very first time since we recorded at that day and You know when. I was like going back and forth like this going to ring. True for stations across the country i realized lake no matter who is listening to this no matter if you are a music fan rita houston has influenced somebody that you care about like a musician from brandy. Carlisle to katy lang to adele too. I mean the list is like a mile and a half long of artists that took to social media by the way right away to thank her to have that large of an imprint. I mean that's that is that's a life well spent you know and it's something to aspire to. There's a small group of us who are close with rita who are getting bracelets made what would we do. W and it's something that like. I mean i literally. I i keep with me every single day. I hear her my head every single day. I'm here talking to you. Thanks to her. And i feel a duty in a sense of responsibility to carry her legacy. That's that's the work now is like you know. Keep keep showing up to work. Keep showing up to where work keep supporting artists. Keep building relationships. That's how she did it. You know so. I know that was a long though. It's hard when somebody brings that topic to me. You know it's There's a lot to say. Thank you so much. I mean this. And you are continuing with with your shiro. Show and it's it really is. The torch has been passed so to speak. And you're you're really you. You're promoting great music and that's all that that's all that matters really you know you're you're pushing the artists and the these these talents. It's great and you're giving them a voice. It's it's wonderful. And i'm really happy that you've got this show and we hear you in la. I can hear you in. La now at eight eight five fm our guest. We're gonna hear you on sonos eventually and now yes beginning in march. Yeah shiro's mixed tape memoir actually funny. It's kind of a similar thing we're just talking about but Again reminds me yeah. It's like what we just did right walking down memory lane with with songs. It's music is so transport. This is so cool. Thank you guys so much for inviting me. It was a lot of fun. It was really owes a nice change of pace for me really. I enjoyed myself very much in his greek. Meet you holly sized to me. Thank you for doing this. We're so grateful. That was a lotta fun. It was a pleasure. Thank think i'm available. Welcome back anytime skirt. That's it calling you a friend of the show there all right so thank you so much. Carnevale we'll talk soon. Yeah take care. Well can't yes for sure. All right so thanks again to carmel. Halt a her show is called shiro's radio and its heroes with an s. You could hear the show anywhere. How can you give us that information. Shares radio dot com and also in march. You'll hear on sonos so that should be fun and super talented very happy to have her going over a ten song chunk of songs k rock played way back in one thousand nine hundred four and thank you holly a wonderful co host. The pleasure has been all mine. Dave as it is every single week. Pantheon podcast proud member of the pantheon. Podcast family where can you follow us. Holly you can find us on facebook. At what difference does it make podcast and you can follow us on twitter and instagram at wdm cast and also check out our youtube channel where we are posting regularly. Lots of clips. Lots of out takes from our show so so subscription simply follow. What difference does it make. Podcast on youtube and you will easily find what holly is posted on there. And it's always something fly. Can't wait to see what she posted this week until next week. This is dave chuck later very.
Creation Science, NAR and a Roman Catholic debates baptism
"Polytechnic? And you report Clark of the Christian punk. All right. This is a politics live, and we are live. Glad to have you all here with us. We are here another week. But we do not have the slick one. Which means we're gonna have a lot more fun. No. We have a doctor in the house, quite literally a doctor. Well, specifically, a dentist. Yeah. I'm not a real doctor. Yeah. Pl say, you're not a real doctor. This is Dr Anthony semestral from striving for turn ity, and we're gonna have some fun talking to main topics tonight which pregnant get into some others. We're planning to talk about creation science, which happens to be his expertise. And the main thing he ends of speaking about for striving for Turney. But we're also gonna talk about something else, which is kind of his favourite love. I think would it be fair to say you have a love hate relationship with the new apostolic reformation. Yeah. The NRA and Catholics for whatever reason are just always on my radar. All right. Everyone around here is either one of them. So Mets is is trying to pack up his house for folks who have been following along with us. Matt is trying to pack up in. He's getting believe it's this week. The corporates come in the paint goes up, and he's trying to get everything out of the house to be able to do that. They're still trying to figure out how to get to move. They're trying to get for folks who have been following, you know, that his wife is basically not very mobile, and so they needed to get an RV to travel down to they have to get that first. They also have to kind of borrowing someone else's is what they're looking to do because they can't afford around one. But they're looking to do that. And they found out something interesting with their health insurance. They discovered that if they move right now, the health insurance that they've already paid the deductible in full starts all over and they get to pay the deductible all over again. Yet, they get really high deductible, and that's going to be hard. So they're trying to figure out win would be the right time to move. This move may get put off a little bit. We're they're trying to figure this out. So there is someone in the chat named Paul Mars, Paul. Make sure you go to and fro else go to apologetic live dot com. And there is a link to join us from there. There's a reason to ask him Paul to join us because we're gonna be talking about topic the new apostolic reformation or in a are for short, and he had some questions on that. And so we're gonna talk about that actually as kind of amazed Anthony that in the politics live Facebook group, I asked folks what it is. They they wanted to talk about tonight had some, you know, basically just trying to get some some topics and new episode reformation came in a lot of people want to talk about that. We did have one that. Maybe it's up your alley. You know, Steve Ludd with really wanted to talk about big foot and Neville him. And flying demon babies now, I guess that's based out of Genesis six with the whole thing of Neff Elim. So I guess maybe he wants you to answer. I from what I. What they're doing that show without Franken. I mean, that's Franks term. So well, the okay, the flying demon babies is Frank. That's that's all Frank Frank Melissa's who are speaking of. But I guess he dropped the picture in there. And I guess that had some video that he did call big foot and Neff Elim, total depravity, and covenant theology. So I guess those topics that came up on his radio show at one of the times. And I guess met was saying that maybe the Bigfoot or Netflix. I don't know. I century said that neither one of us are capable of answering anything about Bigfoot or flying demon babies because neither one of us believed that they exist. So let me start. I want to ask you some questions first about creation science, and then we'll move over into discussing Eeyore because that's going to be a longer top talk for the folks who are in the room. If you have questions just give give a shout on the side chat there to let me know that you have a question. So that we can add you in but anti real quick for folks. There's a big there's lots of debate on the issue of evolution the issue of creation science on. My rap report podcast your every once in a while. I try to go over different different issues of logic. I gave one recently called confirmation bias. You're familiar with that. I believe right. Okay. I gave the example of how it's used with Evelyn. Could you could you give explain walks plan confirmation by then I'll ask you to give how we see this workout when we talked to people about evolution confirmation. Bias is basically the idea when you only accept evidence or supporting arguments that support a conclusion that you hold to another words you hold to a conclusion. And if evidence comes in that supports that conclusion, you accept it. If it doesn't accept the conclusion you reject the evidence that's called confirmation bias, you have a bias toward something already confirm. Anthony, how do we see this play out when it comes to have Aleutian? Oh, easy. You talked to Neville Sionist, and they will say all science points to Evelyn. And and then they start rattling off certain things. So the reality is is that there's lots of good science out there, the ignore most of it. And if any science that we bring up says, wait a minute. This is where evolution has problems. Revolution can happen. That's what they reject. And then they go back to the us. Fallen other logical fallacies such as pointing to people like me, not being real doctors. And have no thorny to speak on a subject, the they will also point to the myriad of scientists. Would they would call the myriad scientists out there? Like, I admit do the majority of scientists by Tivoli Shen. Seemingly? So I will also say though, that there's many more scientists that that are secular. They are they hate God. But they still realize the big big problems with volition. And so it's interesting. What's actually out there is now a is not what's being taught in secular schools. That's racy this confirmation bias coming out. It's really with the science of what they reject. All right and do throughout the show is whenever we get anyone that gives a super chat by if you want to super chat on the bottom of your in the on YouTube. There's a little dollar sign click that and you can donate the money goes to carve dot org, and so Jason manning gave two dollars and said God bless so anyone that does that we give shout outs too. But sets you give a super chat and John isn't chatting away in their in their. He doesn't wanna come in here. John thinks wants to to his thing that he wanted to talk about. Was I gotta look it up. Now, something about being addicted. He wants he wants topic bible coveting a serious issue among striving for Turney leadership. Anthony, do you cut it other people's bibles? You know? I I saw that. And and I responded to John actually, I mean, I got I John I got this very nice goat's skin ESV. I'm not coveting years. John. It's kind of like if there's a piece of food on somebody's plate that you really want you lick it real quick. And then they won't eat it. You just do that to Andrews bible, and he'll give it to, you know, say I get another one right here that that someone bought for me, another goats. So I don't need your goat's skin. I don't need to read one John John John got a red goat's skin bible, and he I just like taking it from. But so real quick get back to creation science so with creation science. You like some bibles. I can pull out. It's so okay. The argument people will make is well there several argument. One people make the argument that anything that Chretien. Scientists do hasn't been done through pure review or double blind. Studies. Is that true? And how much does that actually matter? So here's another issue of confirmation bias. They will make the claim that we don't have peer reviewed science journals. And we say look at all these journals peer reviewed look at all these articles that are peer reviewed some of which appear viewed in secular journals, and they reject it. They won't read any of the journal so ICR at creation dot com. A I g they all put out journals. Good heavy research technical journals done with actual PHD scientists. And these things don't get looked at. So we have plenty of peer reviewed journals peer reviewed articles in those journals. They they just again, they reject everything. Systematically, if it doesn't if it doesn't fit with our world view, it's gone. They don't think about it. And that's sort of what Ben Stein was trying to get across in that movie. He did expelled, smells expose. Spelled. And what do they do with that? They're like, oh, well that is in serious. You know that? If it doesn't start with the conclusion they want. They just reject it and say, well, that's that doesn't count. So here's what's crazy, though there if you go into certain secular scientific journals, you can find you can find articles and in research, where they show we know people, you know, guys that do the research together speaking among themselves within the article talking about how they can't see how things like evolution works. There's plenty of there's plenty journal articles. They know that they're they're I don't even want. Call theory is not a theory, but their hypothesis is broken when they know that they don't have a mechanism in terms of the mutation issue. It's it's the one thing I explained the book, it's the one thing that when as you've heard me teach multiple times of thing about mutations is best the Lynch pin revolution. And they know they don't have it. Same thing goes for the big bang theory. It's the reason why people probably don't know this. But the reason why the Higgs bows on particle was. So so so important for them to find. A few years ago in why they had all kinds of excitement for what they thought was a Higgs boson particle is because in the big bang dilemma, it brings up something called horizon problem. So maybe I'll explain that here for a moment. I just heard this on Easter Sunday as I was witnessing to my father in law, and and brother-in-law. So Julia was gracious enough to walk away and take the rest of the family with her and it left me with with them for for several several hours. And. We had some interesting talk. So the brother-in-law who thought he's been really smart says, hey, have you ever looking at telescope before? I go, of course. Well, don't you think that we can see billions of light years away? And I said I'll we gotta break for this. Are we seeing? Well, we're we're saying it, but I didn't show him in. He wants to show here. What we'll put them on camera. He can show his. Now, he's not putting his Cameron. But but he needs to get faster internet, so people can actually see something than but he's showing a red Schuyler bible. Yeah. It's pretty yes. And he thinks coveting that bible. But the reality is the reality is we paid for that by I could've bought two. As he rose. I think he was just looking that bible. That's how it works. He's. Okay. So let me let let folks in the background here. Okay. John John, John one this bible at a contest that we're having and the he so he got he wins the bible, he brings it to a conference that we're at in out of Washington, and he brought it I took his bible. And hit it on him. So he couldn't find this bible. And so ever since then. It's been the nice that you actually put me in Tokyo. Hey it worked. He did. I sacrificed my. Yeah. Well, thanks. Still most good to just. Right. You gotta work on your internet there. 'cause it's kind of you may have to. I'm getting dizzy looking at it. Yeah. All right. So so first off you're mentioning the particle, and I don't even know how many folks I mean people who study as well. No, you know, the importance of this. So could you back up one second? I explain the the particle. What's going on over at earn? What they're trying to do. And then let's get into the horizon problem. So basically, it's a it's a tiny tiny tiny particle now. Let's talk about the rise problem. I backtrack to this. And it'll make sense here. So this this is the horizon problem when my brother-in-law questioned me and asked me while you look your telescope, right? Don't you think we're seeing six billion light years because of the thought that if something is six billion light years away that it takes six billion years fat light to travel before enters the telescope, enter Orion. We see it. And and so therefore the universe must be. Billions of years old. And I said, well, you know, here's the problem is that we don't actually know the speed of light. Is sounds crazy. Right. Except that anytime you read in the textbook the speed of light. It's the average speed of light. It's not the speed of light. We don't actually know the one way the one directional way speed of light. And Jason Lisle has has some good research on this or good thoughts ish say behind this. And some of the math behind it. He's several ideas as to how light would travel faster than what we think to be the speed of light today in one direction in one direction because when you said, the average, you know, when you said, the average it's really when we measure light, we can only measure a round trip, we can measure a light beam hitting Amir returning returning at photons, boom in back, Iraq and measure that time we know the distance there. We have an average speed of light. We don't know. And we suspect it could be faster one way. Some guys think it could actually be instantaneous one way. And then you see the lag on the way back. So who knows who knows what the answer is. But the thing is is that we as creationist get pointed at by the secularist who say that. We've got the issue because we believe if the earthly success years old than the light must travel faster than the speed of light. Ha ha ha jokes on you type of deal, and we say, well, wait a minute. You've got a problem too. 'cause within the big bang theory. You also have to assume that the speed of light is a whole lot faster than what we have is the average speed of light today. And this is what I mean. So if we took in a Cup of coffee that was piping hot and you put nice couple ice cubes in the top. Let's assume that it was enough ice cubes that that when they melted and mixed together with a coffee. It would bring it down to an average temperature that you drink it in not Skuld yourself. Okay. That's our assumption. Now, let's say you drop those two ice cubes in and the moment the last ice cube melts you drink it. What happens you're going to burn yourself still? And the reason why is because there's not enough time that has passed to allow the heat transfer in that Cup of coffee, you'll end up having colder coffee on top hotter. Coffee in the bottom. The way that we get around this problem as we stirred up, right? And so that's how you you mix together in. It's in good will the Reisen problem says this when they've tested different areas of the universe. Obviously not right next to his stock. We're talking in the vast amounts of space 'cause most of the universe's space as we test different areas of space. We found that the temperature is very very uniform. We're talking ten to the negative fifth Kelvin so a fraction of a degree. The problem is for the secularists is that not enough light from stars has transferred back and forth across the universe to make what should have been hot and cold spots uniform temperature because according to the big bang. Four stars to formed got hot spots for planets to cool down for the vast amount of space to be really cold. You would have had right right from the get-go. The big bang these hot and cold spots having to appear those hot and cold spots. There is not enough time in their big bang model of thirteen to fourteen billion years is not enough time for light to transfer which is heat for it to transfer enough to be able to make the uniform temperature that we see university. That's the issue. It's a secularist. No this problem. Call the Reisen problem for us as creches when I do training on creation. I don't worry about the three different theories that Jason Lisle has two different theories of Danny Faulkner has the other half a dozen theories that are out there as to how can travel faster than the speed of light all Zeiss as look you seculars heavy exact same problem. We do in horizon problem. Now, the Higgs bows on. Particle? They fear is that if you had enough of these Higgs bows on particles right from the get-go. It would have accounted for a lot more mass. And they could have accounted for hot and cold spots. That would have dissipated a lot faster. I guess is easiest way to say it. So it's just a way that they could have tried to tweak their model. And that's that's really about it. And I think we're seeing a bunch of stuff coming up. Now, I actually have some questions from visit who I haven't talked to you in quite some time. All right. Well, let's let's bring him in. I thought you were talking about the the other Chet. But Vincent, I brought you in. I don't know if there's another chat rec- the one here on the screen. Yeah. There's one on YouTube. I'm not that fancy really more comments towards some of this. Interesting topic for sure can y'all hear me, by the way. Yep. All I never know. Just the whole. Subject of the speed of light and Hal it's measured in. Really courage to look at some of the earlier experiments that really led Einstein to come up with a stereo relatively. It's called the michelson-morley experiments where they were trying to trying to measure the speed of light. And it led to some very interesting results. And it's what really propelled Einstein to come up with stare relativity. Because they couldn't. They couldn't even come close to quantifying the the speed of light to what they thought it would be. And so they had to use all these mathematical equations to to try and normalize it is it it's interesting topic. If you look into it really further, the michelson-morley experiments, Dave multiple towns, and the results are always with not what they scientific community expected. So it's tough. And like other things they don't expect. They don't talk about either. I mean, really the whole reason for the relativity theory, and transforms is because in order to maintain the status quo assign scientific community when all it all it is to to to keep what they already think perceived to be the truth to you know, to maintain it as their truth will that's the confirmation bias again. I mean, it really is. Right. Because I if if their argument is that this is what all scientists believe. And then we see it. There's some good science on the other side that presents a problem. I don't know if anyone here has watched this video, but there's a video out there. I could probably find it in put up a link at some point here. But there's a there's a video of a of a guy who. He's seemed very sincere. He's a he's a secular. I think it was an anthropologist. He was going back and finding bones of what he believed to be one of one of the intermediate species between Bigfoot we're back on Bigfoot like fig, right? Yeah. Finding babies so actually find deeming babies, I think are a mixed between pterodactyls and humans. Will put it is. We'll have to tell Franken. Now, you got me forgetting what I was talking about. Like, we were paying attention. Probably not. Oh, that's great. Okay. Visit do you do you? Remember what he was saying? But we'll see if anyone was actually paying attention. It was finding bones of something. He was hoping it was going to pick up. So in this. A long day for me. So in these in his drawers, he pulls out a drawer of hips the pelvis, and he is talking about how he knows this to be the pelvis of of an intermediate species between us and a chimpanzee and he said, but this looks way to apelike. So as he studied the pelvis, he saw some areas that he thought that you know. Well, let's just say this. He made an assumption that they hips somehow got crushed. So this whatever eight died. Bones, laying there it gets crushed right before gets fossilized and enduring the fossils ation process. It reattached itself refused. And the problem is is that this set of bone that they knew to be intimate species. But looked way to ape like he knew that that this bone this pelvis must have refused to make look more apelike. Then we watch him for the next five ten minutes taking a demo as our dreamt Ling hips. And then and then gluing the pieces back together into what he believes to be the intermediate. I know you've seen this Andress. You shaking your head? There's if you haven't all seen this find link put it up, you gotta watch this. But it is the ultimate in confirmation of. I I saw that on. I think it was discovery if I'm correct PBS. And so this this, and it was amazing. I watched because I'm just like, wait a minute. How? Do you know like the they're taking a pelvis? It doesn't have any breaks in it assuming it must have been this cracking it like like, oh, let's carve this part out this part out now. Oh, look now, it looks like, you know, the missing link. I think Todd freeloaded Saint showed same video on wretched. Once when you said, he did the same thing. I thought you meant that he actually took a bone. No. So so, yeah, I mean, this is the thing. I think it's so interesting when we get all these challenges for creation because. There's so much of the evidence that they ignore. Because they just can't deal with it. So let's let's go onto one of the questions that we did get someone wanted asked here in the in the Facebook group since we are mentioning Frank malls earlier, Eric man, Seaney had asked the question. I just got to see you're laughing because you you you, you know, Eric Mancini's. And so he was asking about the Loch Ness monster, and which one eats more fishy said Loch Ness, monster or Frank mullah's who eats more fish, Anthony. What say you, actually, I said Frank eight the Loch Ness monster. Because it's a fish. Oh, that's great. Basically Frank likes to eat a lot of sushi, modify and duck and doc he does like duck. Yes. So I don't know. I see that Cody came in here. I don't know if Cody has any questions about creation it's flipping through while you're doing that us flipping through the comments as two topics people on a talked about they wanted to ask if we one of them was do we believe in global warming? Yes. And I actually believe it or not I believe it conditionally. So what happens is if you're northern hemisphere in April may time, we see the temperature's rising. We got some pretty nice global warming. And then and then it turns into global cooling when September and October roles. Well, actually, okay climate change. Well, I answered that. I do. I mean, I do believe in global warming Anglo cooling. I it's a cycle. But here's the thing. Here's the thing that when we come to the issue, and by the way, folks, have you noticed it used to be global warming? And now you're not allowed to use that term and it was climate change. Now, you're not allowed to use that term, and it's extreme weather. When I was growing up we were going into another ice age. The the reason being is you have a cyclical cycle where warms and cools. Now. The irony is when we're going into an ice age this solution that they had was government control. When we went into go, go global warming. The solution was government control the government can't control either one of these extremes. What they do is. They say, okay, let's look at let's do some research and studies on global warming, and what the causes are. So we know that there's things of solar flares basically flares come off of the sun come toward the the earth. And even it's amazing because when these flares come the blow out our our satellites, and there's so, but that they go we're we're gonna take that out that doesn't affect anything. So they remove solar flares the earth actually will. Change its magnetic force. The magnetic field changes. We can't look at that. There's the solar storms. Nope. We can look at that volcanoes. We can look at that. A centrally what they do is remove everything except human beings. And then say man is creating global warming. Yeah. There's there's research out there now. So okay does a greenhouse effect could it potentially exists? Carbon dioxide. It potentially could the issue. I have I don't think I don't think that actually happens. I I believe what you think Andrews that that cycles within not only the earth, but the sign rotation of the planets in the solar system, how we rotate in the Milky Way. Galaxy I think there's a whole host of issues that can play a role in terms of very minor fluctuations in in temperatures. The what the biggest thing of of the research. They've hidden. That bugs me is. When you look at the carbon dioxide that is in carbon monoxide that's put up into the atmosphere. Do you know what the largest amount of it is from? We're talking like more than ninety nine point nine percent of all carbon dioxide emissions cows, right? Isn't it? Now, it's Volkmann earthquakes, especially ones that are in the ocean. I wait, no. Al Gore told us it was cow fluctuation. When cows pass gas come on he was same guy that talked about preserving energy. And then we found out he had a ten thousand dollars a month electric Bill. Well, he told us that the earth was going to be gone like was it seven years ago? Now that we're supposed to be extinct because but joined the jobs witnesses. But you know, when you you look at it there is I mean, there was some studies that were done to show that one volcano does more damage to the ozone layer than two atomic bombs dropped in Japan. I mean, if we tried to destroy the environment. I don't think we could the natural processes of volcanoes do more damage supposedly if you can call it damage, but do more damage than us dropping atomic bombs. So not saying we should be. I mean, one of the things that both you, and I hold to is that we are as Christians we do believe God gave us stewardship over the we should care for. We shouldn't be trying to do things that would damage the atmosphere and things like that. But the thinking that we could actually do something that could destroy this planet. When you look at what the planet's doing to it self because that's part of the curse. This is part of what we see is the result of the fall, you see this in Romans chapter eight the entire universes. Groaning recruitment too. Yeah. Because of the fall because of what happened with Adam and eve, there was a curse that are affected the whole universe. The entire universes. Groaning. That's what we see. And if the earth hasn't destroyed itself now with all the volcano activity. It's head. We're not gonna do much not not saying we should try to take care of it. But we have a responsibility. Yeah. Responsibility to appoint. Right. I mean, you're not going to affect a human life based off of. And I mean, we have to be aware of the fact that there is a political agenda behind it as well. I mean, there is an agenda behind all these things that have been attempting to create a, you know, basically to take open markets in close them and create more of a socialistic mindset. They've been trying a lot of different things to do to do that. And global warming didn't work like they hoped, but L G T B Q has I mean, that's really been helping in creating a worldwide socialistic thinking, but yeah, I think it's just government control. That's all they want. Oh, absolutely. The will. So as we're talking about the LG BT Q movement. This might be a good time to bring up equip, Ohio. Right. So and actually ended you wanna talk about for moment. I've got to go watch Anthony run home from. Okay. All right. Sure. He puts me on the spot. So so. A quip Ohio is going to be June. First in Cleveland, Ohio at homestead falls Baptist church. If you're where we've held the previous ones and June. First the doors are going to open eight o'clock eight AM this one is going to be different than we've done the past because it's going to be more of a mini conference. So it's going to run until just before noon and then around noon to six o'clock, we're gonna have more time aside for the evangelism. And the reason that Anthony was saying to the TV Q is because there will be a gay pride festival. And that's one of the reasons we're gonna try to go a little bit earlier is to be able to go and do some outreach there while there's a lot of people at at the parade. We don't go into the parade though need to the speakers for this though are going to be Dr Anthony Vescio, Michael Coggan, and the pastor Austin Hessler, if you've been to our other Ohio conferences, you should know those names. And so June first doors open, eight o'clock at OEMs fell own stead falls Baptist church. If you want to get more information about that just Email info at striving for eternity dot ORG info at striving for eternity dot O, R G. And so that would be good play a good place to go get trained up. If you want to get trained to do some evangelism. Now, I'm just trying to look at some of the comments that we had from our Facebook group because there was some of it was another one I wanted to address and have to look, but if oaks want to join in here ask any questions giving challenges could apologize live dot com. There is a link there to join and I'm going to add in see who's I I think Chris was I. Okay. So Chris I. Added you if you want yourself, and I don't know if you have any questions for us tonight. Not a specific. Well, I did have a question for for Dr celestial. I wanted to end. I I'm pretty sure I know where he is. Because he talked about the the six thousand years old now I'm just wondering if that's something that we should affirm source younger creations concerned in if that's what Genesis wanted to attend. Well, I will answer for Dr Anthony vessel because I will give a better answer than he could. And the best part is now that he's back. He doesn't know the question. He just gets to hear the answer. Flying demon maybes? You know, at some point we're gonna have to explain this flying demon babies of Franks, Franks gotta get on Frankel have to get on. All right. So here's the question was Anthony, do we must we well should we affirm young earth creation? Now, I think you, and I have a little bit of a different view. I I would say we should but not must. I I'm a little bit. I'm not as hard line. I would say maybe as as Anthony, I think that there are folks who may think that scripture allows for an older earth, and they have reasons from scripture, but I don't think it's I just don't think the very good arguments. However, I don't say that we shouldn't call them brothers. I don't think that they're somehow giving up the bible. What say you Anthony? Heretics? No in all seriousness. The issue that I that I have is. When we look at the bible. The only reason why you get millions to billions of years is from secular textbooks. You don't read the bible and come up, the millions of billions of years, it is it is strictly something is taking from secular science and people do their best to import it into the bible. That's an issue. I have it's it's very different than many other conversations, you know, Andrew and Matt different the algae a number of areas. You guys can have good talks about that debates that people enjoy respectful to Bates, and you guys can both walk away thinking either. You're right. The other one's wrong. No. I'm always, right. Yeah. But you respect each other. Because you guys know that both you star was, you know, that's that's your starting point. And the starting point of somebody who looks at an older is not scripture. When we listen to the arguments of Hugh Ross and some of these other guys who are are professing Christians. They are proponents of of evolution and old age. They never have scriptural arguments that are sound, and they don't they have no places where they can stick the millions of billions of years in other than actually just sticking it in somewhere. Well, I think you know, there are some who you be familiar with, you know, the the whole idea that the Justice went to is more of a polemical type of argument they're going to approach it from scripture. But the folks that whole to that also don't always take a position on whether it's old or young are they can go either way they don't make a deal that. So there are some folks who try to make an argument from scripture not just from science that allows for now I'm gonna I'm gonna play the advocate here. I think that the way they will argue is that they're looking at scripture and looking at what they see in the world, and we do this as well. Even if you take a young earth, we're going to have people that are going to take what we see in scripture compared to the evidence that we see we see Fussell's all over the the. All over the earth buried in rock layer. We would say that's no is flood because we see knows flood in the scriptures. We see the evidence we expect to see in a flood, and we say well there, we're look we're doing the same thing as what they're gonna say that with a young earth position. Yeah. Well, okay. So fossils brings up a whole different story. The thing is we can go through the bible and with Adam and eve being created on the sixth day, we can Adam genealogies, we can take the stork accounts. And we come up with years. We don't come up with with millions to billions of years. Yes. The arguments now going to be that you could skip generations in there. And that's not accounted for maybe maybe when you say so and so got so and so there was actually three four five generations missing in there. Yeah. Of course in in Jude it verifies e- knock being the seventh from Adam. So so there's people who make that argument. But yet we can we can point to do there. And and that lines up perfectly. Maybe they did it after Jude. Maybe that practice only started or not after after you knock maybe it was the the, you know, after knock there's like eight generations missing, you know. Yeah. And I, and I suppose people can come up with all kinds of things. But again, what is their starting point? How does an idea of millions to billions of years even arrive into the brain? If you're reading the bible at face value. That's that's the first issue that I have. Here's a second issue though. And this is going to be the the to me, it's it's the dagger for. All of this. We look at we just celebrated Christ's death burial resurrection. We just celebrated what we see is the core of the gospel. I cringe fifteen versus three and four. What is the point of Jesus dying? I make the argument of book. Right. What is the point of in what book in my book on ears the kinds? Well, you say the book like every like everybody knows book. I mean. I mean, look do you have a copy of the book to put on display like I do over here. Mine, you know, now, he's gotta go get it. Now, I will say this. I'm gonna we're gonna we're gonna rep- up creation. I wanna get to any or and I there's a couple of people in here allies here and also traditional Catholic. And I think that it'd be fun to have you and traditional Catholic have a nice conversation. We should only I thought then. So here here's the the biggest problem with with believing in an older is that you have to presuppose death before Sinn. You look at the fossil record that you brought up, and it's the fossil record is either a record of death over billions of years, or it's a record of death that happened in middle one fell swoop over the period of body year during those flood why this is important is because when did death enter into the creation. Is death. The result of sin as we read in Genesis two. As as what God tells Adam will be the result of sin. Do we believe God there? And then when we read in Genesis three we see immediate spiritual death and the promise of future, physical death. This is what the bible teaches is that death entered in creation through Adam his sin. Not before. We're we we've got really good genealogies, Adam and eve being real people. We you could not have had you cannot have had the death before Adam and eve, and here's a rally enter you brought up the issue of geologists before they're older people. Don't argue which analogies they make there's some guys. I mean, John Whitcomb. One of the guys wrote the Genesis flood with Henry Morris who I had a pleasure to meet just six months ago in his ninety ninety two years old he argues he believes that that there's some genealogies missing which would push it up to in the neighborhood of nine to ten thousand years of age of the earth. Not millions of years whenever you see the millions of. Years entered into scripture there, either entering it between Genesis one one in one to which goes by number of of theories or gap theory, ruin reconstruction Lucifer's fly there's all kinds of them or they do as days of creation are our old ages. But what what they don't ever attempt to to change is the geological record. So I'm confident to say if we look at Adam and eve, whether I believe it's about six thousand years, let's give them ten. Let's give them twenty thousand years. I don't care the point is that if death started because of enemy said. That means that before then there was no death of humans nor animals. Why do we think this? We read in Genesis one that the food that was given to humans was only plants they were vegetarian what was the food given to animals, we read Genesis one guess what they were also vegetarian. There was no death in that original creation guide every every day day to said that his creation was good at the end of his days of creation at the end of day six he called his creation. Very good. Did God look over his creation in say while after billions of years of death. Killing thing after thing after thing after thing, by the way, by the way, this death is what he calls the last enemy to be destroyed in first fifteen twenty six so he would be using his his last enemy to destroy d- for billions of years to bring about everything we see in Genesis one on the six day. Through all this death disease. Suffering famine thorns of this all the band that we see today. Going back to now are are millions of years Christians. They have to take death input. It before Adamson. This is what I think is the death knell to two older creationism. And I think the undermine the gospel because for Jesus dying on the cross he literally took the punishment that God's subscribed to sin back in the garden in Genesis two. That was the punishment. He didn't have to go. Get get a spanking in the corner or a out or you know, ludicrous things like death death. So this these are the arguments these arguments I make and I just don't see how you how you get around it. All right. I want change gears. I just added Paul Morrison bring his volume up so he'll be able to. All right. So Paul Paul had some question for folks who don't know. Basically since we added Anthony investor to the speaking roster striking tree he's kind of been the main to speak on. Creation science Genesis. Because actually, always Genesis because it doesn't matter. What topic you give him to speak on? He's going back to Genesis. So every every topic it just seems go there, but but there's one maybe we won't go to Justice and Paul had some questions with the new apostolic reformation folks may not be super familiar with this. I do podcast with Amy Spearman on new apostolic reformation. If you go to wrap report, I don't know which episode but do just when you get to wrap report on starting training dot org. Look up our podcast go to the rap report. Find the one with Amy Spearman on new episode reformation we define it there. It's basically in short this idea that there is people who churches that that can still have apostles and prophets today. They speak through the apostles prophets. So that's kind of the Anthony is kind of our resident expert that we have at striving for training on any are. So I said to Paul why don't you come on in and ask your questions of Anthony because he's going to be able to answer them better than I so go for Paul guys. Appreciate it. A anthony. I I've been in a month long discussion with a distant family member. And he and I shared both. Both grandkids is his daughters, married to my son. And so on an love this, brother. He's sweet man, but he's been really promoting this new apostolic, reformation leaders in it and other prosperity gospel leaders for while. And so that's. What spark our conversation. I said, listen, I don't think I want you promoting those things to me. And I certainly don't I don't want. I really wish would promote them at all. And and hope that we could talk about it. So we've zeroed in on pretty much Bethel reading it. How do you view Bethel reading in their role in the new apostolic reformation? So we have to we have to remember the NASCAR we as the outsiders. We look at this whole movement and we call the air. And I think a lot of people think that it's a denomination. It's not right. So we wanna make sure that we understand that. It's really a very loose. Amorphous type. Combination of number of places, I will say though, the Bethel reading is probably number one on the list. So when we look at the leaders of the new apostolic reformation, it is certainly Bill Johnson that is at the forefront. I would I would put almost on the same level. Mike Bickel of I hop. Not the pancake place, but international house of prayer. So the they're they're kind of the the two big guys today. This is what's also so mind you any ours. Really confusing. You know, I love Justin's. Twelve hours. I think are fourteen hours of water yet. Justin Peters, clouds that water. It's it's it hours to is longer. I don't know how long. Yeah. So it's. You go through all kinds of stuff, and what you're gonna find is that there's a number of beliefs that seem to be universal among all these leaders. There's some things are going to disagree on. But one of the hallmarks of the NR is ecumenism. They believe they believe in in literally type of collective salvation almost what we looked at with with what Obama seen to be promoting times, the mixing of of religions, and certainly Oprah preaches on this type of thing, and any are is very much like this so similar to. I don't want to pull the Catholic in in quite yet. But the one of the issues that we see with Catholicism on among many issues with Catholicism. Is that pokes beaming softer over the time? And it's now it's now as long as you believe in some type of God, you know? Yeah, you can go to heaven. Popes are getting softer. I don't know I questioned whether this Kerr pope is even Catholic. May with. How your video questions that too? But, but so my point Paul is that we go back to the NRA are, and they kinda firm anybody who believes in some type of God. And their their focus is literally God, they speak Jesus. But they don't they don't believe in the same Jesus that we do they believe in Jesus that when he came to earth. He wasn't God. Right. You look at explain that in detail. What what is what is the nuance there because I think a lot of people. Might benefit from knowing. What's a specific example of of what they might say to. Yes, this this is the problem though, is that. They don't a lot of them. Don't know the theology of the air. So people who are hearings to the NRA and our fans of Bethel. Don't know a lot of this stuff among what the leaders teach. Okay. But I mean, okay. So for us. Let's talk here for the people that are here. Why is it important to understand that Jesus? Both God fully God. And fully, man. Right. Let's start there. And I think maybe we have somebody who wants to speak instead. Answer for us. I mean, you have you do have the book written on the sun? Yeah. No. You know? This is very important spoke about is on Good Friday is if Jesus Christ was not truly man, then he can't be a sacrifice for other people. He can't be a sacrifice for human beings. So to be a sacrifice he had to be since never breaking the law of God that way he can be a proper sacrifice. But if he wasn't fully God. Then he we're dead in our sins. 'cause if he wasn't truly God, then he wasn't attornal, and he had to be attornal pain eternal fine. That's what makes them unique. Yeah. So thank you. If I'm understanding Johnson specifically or incorrectly. He sort of holds this view that Jesus laid aside his deity when it came to earth. That's what they say. That means is that he wasn't God when he was here. Now, here's here's the this is work. It's really interesting. Okay. And this is the important point to pick up on this. I mean, well, the most important places Andrew just brought up that you know, Jesus God than none of us have ovation. But I would say the second most important point is this because people new apostolic reformation, you have what they call the living apostles? Bill Johnson, Mike Bickel Lou angle. Todd Bentley the list goes on there's a number of these apostles so to speak today, and they in this in different conversation. But they believe that they have the same gifts of the Holy Spirit. They Uppsala gifts that were two thousand years ago. Well, what about for the normal person the average person they look at Jesus not as an apostle? But as a normal person who walked in the spirit. So I get you. Yes. To the father granted certain powers of the spirit Ford. And that's how he raid in his three years of mystery. Which means then that anybody who's in here in an air. Biaggi follows Bethel guests who they can also be like. Jesus and they can walk in the same power of the spirit granted by the father. Just like Jesus he is he's the role model is the model for for people. Right. So that that's where it really gets interesting. And that's why you see all kinds of really wacky stuff. I mean and just the last couple of weeks were we saw the tarot card stuff come back out right there. Okay. Today is that real they're really using something that's like Aotearoa card about. Yeah. That's was RO. And here's what's crazy to is is because this whole movement is highly affirming. Even if something seems not right? The leaders will firm it, right? Chris Valla tone, the guy who does that the grave sucking. I mean, this stuff's ludicrous. Right. So for those you don't know what sucking is you can go find this on YouTube, Chris Val tone. Who is I think third in charge. It's at Bethel. I think is a worship leader a second one. Maybe. Yes. He's like the worst player. Okay, worship. So he goes in and takes people on gravesites of people that they believe were specially anointed. So there's different levels of nineteen spirit. People get people are really annoyance the Holy Spirit. They'll lay on the graves to suck the anointing off of them and take it from selves Zoro, it's bizarre. I is that. I give you a practical example of why my one of my first views of Beth was a number of years ago. My my mom and dad lived in Weaverville where Bill Johnson is from in later. They moved to the other side of the valley to shingle town, which is across the valley from reading and mom got a. Diagnosis of cancer. And so so she went to the hostility imaging and basically took a an image of her head and the nurse who was assisting her just gave her hug and said, hey, listen. I'm not supposed to tell you this. This is good. And kinda gave her some of the details, and basically mom learned that David that she was going to die and heard my father left the hospital. She had hundreds of tumors that that's what she was learning. And as she left the hospital. They get any elevator. They ran into some folks from Bethel reading we're on something called a treasure hunt. Yeah. And my dad who walks with slight limp from a hip surgery, and he had a chain they honed in on him and completely unaware of the weight and gravity the situation. They said, hey, sir. A we'd like to pray for you. Jesus will heal you if you'll just a an my dad's at, hey, listen, nothing, you know. So you don't understand. I don't think you understand see they completely missed the entire gravity of the situation. Looking at the visual of and thinking, they knew what the situation was or maybe had some kind of divine insight to a newer completely loss at the gravity of the situation. Of course, mom passed on just a few months after that. An and I thought how strange is this to go and think that you're working in the thirty of the Holy Spirit. An at you're going to claim a healing. And then and completely missed this this whole situation. How terrible is that? And I would suspect that there are things like that the playoff time and time again that the fruit the end fruit and result is let's say we profess a healing over somebody of diabetes, and then they they claiming healing. Maybe they even feel good for a day or two, but they quit their beds. You know, I mean, the fallout can be difficult. And so that's that's a concern. I have I have another question for you though in this game for a my from my family member Bill and Bill would want to ask this. He asked us of me this morning. He says how does God speak to us today in my immediate thing was will primarily right through his word. I mean, that's what we have what a gift the word of God is for us. Well, let me give you the question. He could ask him back. Okay. Because the argument for folks who may not be with an AR is the idea that we we somehow we need these prophets and apostles today. Now, this is one of the things you see almost every Colt that they're going to teach that the average person can't have the authority to understand God's word, you need them as leaders that. Because that's what gives them that authority to have the control over your life. Jehovah Jehovah witness Mormon Roman Catholic any of them. They have that central authority. That's going to tell you. You can't interpret the bible we interpreted for you. It's the same thing that you have with any are they're going to say, well, they have the prophets. They of the apostles only they can interpret. But the question is why haven't we had it for thousands of years? And all of a sudden we need it now. Okay. Now, if you're if you're going to deal with the separation now Roman Catholics say they've always had their popes. I think that's hard to show historically, but they're going to make the claim at least, but Mormons Jehovah witnesses. They have to say the church fell away. So for guy like that's in Bethel that says he's part of the Christian church. And he's not part of one of these these groups where were the where was the apostles where the profits for all these years? They they're not gonna say the church fell away. They're not going to say that they've always had them. But they don't even think through their their, you know, when we see three major times in history that we have recorded where miracles occurred K, Moses. Alishan Elisha and Christ. What are we see all three of those times? Moses, we have the beginning of the writing of scripture, then there's a period of silence allies Elisha come onto the scene. They come into scene. And all of a sudden after we have the writing of scripture after a long period of science. We are the writing of scripture again with the prophets then period of silence. Then all of a sudden Jesus comes on seeing all these miracles. What do we have again with is with the the apostles? We have the writing of scripture now, it's gone silent. If we look at the pattern, we'd be saying, okay, they have to have some new authority while then there's got to be scripture being written. Now, they're going to say that they don't need that. But here's a real thing that I would challenge you with Paul is if they're claiming these prophets claim to make prophecies. We look at the scriptures. Scriptures would say that a prophet has to be one hundred percent right yet for these guys. These guys say that their accuracy is about eighty six percent. I believe is the latest numbers. They're they're not claiming to be a hundred percent. According to the bible, we should stone them as a false prophet. Now, they say it's not a false prophecy. It was a prophecy. That was just wrong. I think that's a strange excuse when we see the vehicle standard for profits that they in fact Bill actually brought this up. He said, hey, a New Testament prophet has a different standard than an Old Testament prophet. And I said, I don't know that I could find Mace. What verse what verse does he turn to for that? I don't think he did. Yes. Because he can't this goes right back to the confirmation bias. Okay. So so the issue for to challenge him with? And this is really the issue. Do they want truth or do they want the bible to say what they wish it said? Because the truth is there's nothing that talks about a New Testament prophet, right? Sounds like evolutionist millions of years. Yeah. It's the same confirmation bias. You know? And so so what is Bill Johnson is going to set himself up as the authority. Now, the nice thing when you do that is when you set yourself up as the authority, can you ever be wrong? No. Because you're the authority. That's right. Right. In fact, I think Bill and I were discussing not not Johnson. Of course. Bill family member. We were discussing this idea phrases don't got in a box, right. This is a use that or bell writing uses. And so Bill say will maybe scripture gives a st- a snapshot. But it's not all inclusive of everything God might choose to do at any given time in history. I mean, that's that's an interesting thing any brought up a new well how does God speak to us today. You know, we think will through his word. He has spoken. We know that. And then what about when we say things like, in fact, I was watching Lindsay Davis interview on think apology cultish last night, they had released video. And and she said something like I I was led to back to Bethel course, attempts to witness the gospel to the to the folks that were there, and he said, well, what about that? What's this leading that got his God speaking to her anything or do we? Have an inclination, and how does how do you view those type of communications between got house? God communicating with us other than the word of God. Well, I think that we do have the dwelling Holy Spirit. Okay. So. The spirit though, his ministry is to eliminate scripture. So does goes back to scripture here. Here's the thing. We have to look at there are some passages scripture we can examine do we put God in a box. Let's take that one. For example. Well does God put himself in the box. There are God has certain limitations Titus one to God cannot lie. He cannot it doesn't matter. If it's Old Testament or New Testament, he cannot ally why because this is part of his nature. He Andrew taste just slightly grossing over. I my on my phone. It's about the diet. I gotta run and get my charter, and I don't want to miss anything. But you may have to it's gonna freeze. Let me run running charger. What we'll talk about you while you're gone. It'll be fun. Because you know, he can always go back and get this on on in any here. What we say about him that could be fun. But he let me all answers and even go back and rewatch. But here's the thing that we end up seeing with this. We have to look at what the scripture says. And I know Anthony you're gonna love this quote. You've heard it before. But Justin Peters always says if you want to hear God's speak read the bible if you'd like to hear him, speak audibly, read it aloud. And that's what we have. We we have this case where if you wanna hear God's speaking. It is in his word now, what is it word say in Hebrews thirteen. He is the same yesterday today and forever. Another words what that's talking about. It doesn't mean that if he gave a gift in one period of time. He's gotta do it in this period. Time he did miracles one period time he's gotta doing that's not the meaning it's talking about his character his character doesn't change. So God is faithful he's always going to be faithful if he cannot lie. He can never lie. So when we look at these things, this is why comes in because what these guys wanna do say that you're if you question could God do something. Then the issue is. You know is he does he have to be. Okay. So I would say that you know, when you look at this. There's people who try to argue that somehow he has to be different. So because what they're what they're trying to say is that their their view that they have is. You know, he's he's doing these things today through Bill Johnson, right and others. And yeah. No, there's okay. But the thing is that when we look at what scripture says that's the authority because here's what you're you're. You're relative bills. Do you're presenting bible. He's presenting Bill Johnson. That's right. So the question is which is the authority because every time you present scripture, and he rejects it for Bill Johnson says his real thorny Bill Johnson. And that's what you see in a Colt. Think I think is true. And I know that the specific scriptures we wrestle with. He kind of wants to go off in argue about. He was argue about specific scriptures. That aren't really relating to on an interview right now, we just minutes. And teenagers. Anyhow, so he'll he'll want to argue about things that are just general Charismatics versus non charismatic look this. That's a non issue for me in this in this type of discussion. Although I do I probably do have some issues with what I see in the charismatic movement. I don't know that that's the same as arguing the authority of scripture versus Bill Johnson. You know? So I keep trying to focus backing and say, let's go ahead. And let's go ahead. And look at what Bill Johnson Bethel writing are representing which I think is very low view of scripture, by the way. And so any, you know, another strange thing. Not only speaking, but the manifestation of miracles that Johnson claims such as the gold dust, the gyms that are kind of popping up angel feathers. Again, I I noticed that my friend Bill will want to argue specific scriptures that don't preclude a possibility of things like this happening but were prevented according to him. But I just think that it. I think when we take a look at what the word of God says it just has nothing like this in it. I other words, these manifestations are are strange. I can't reconcile at all to any experience. We might have seen in the New Testament or for that fact, any period in church history. Anyhow, that's kinda just of it. You know, we're looking at gold dust gems now our now, we're discussing those kind of things, and I think it's so bizarre. Where where the where the discussions led? Well, let's remember a couple of things here. I mean, first of all. All while they would claim Aaron see a scripture. They don't they they would not believe in sufficiency scripture. Right. And so that's why they believe they're still getting downloads from God. That has to be that has to be owned by that group. And you know, I heard Bill Johnson saying movie called Holy Ghost produced by I think it's wonder less films, which is basically Bethel writings video film production. I hope I have that that tunnel. Right. But he said of folks like myself another's that are like minded with the bible that we basically worship the bible heels. He has a phrase, it's not the father son in the holy bible Safafa son in the Holy Ghost. And then he goes off into a dialogue net movie. Holy Ghost about how folks like us tend to get into the worship of scripture, and I think that's an unfair charge. I think we hold a high view scripture because it it is what a second Timothy three sixteen seventeen that. It's got breeds. You know, it's for every it is the sufficiency of God's word for all facets of Christian living. And so I think they fall short there. Anthony, good observation. Now, of course, let's remember they make lots of money based off of the fact that they get people wrapped up in emotionalism. They get people wrapped up in in the signs and wonders in. So you know, you you look at all the excitement it comes around the church. Where's it from you see the tarot card readings and they've got they've got huge Facebook live presentation on this. You've got you've got people that constantly show the gold dust that supposedly fell and they're showing this on camera these big rubies. You know, if if you had a ruby that was literally that big it would be worth millions. I mean, and these are. Heart-shaped that. That's funny. Yeah. And if they had that they would go by themselves new private jet, right? Thing you buying a bag of fifty party, central or something. And this is the part that is so amazing to me is that people have got to know that these are fake that these jewels. Drop down that they're showing Facebook fake to know this how how do they reconcile their heads? I think it's the same issue. I think they are. They're wrapped up in the emotionalism of it will actually do because you mentioned gold dust here. I don't know if you've heard this from Jeff you heard from Justin, but Justin Peters, actually met a woman who got saved and her and her husband job was to put this gold glitter in ventilation every week. And yet she still part of it is that helpful. And what I'm gonna do is. I'm going to get a hold of you again. And I'm gonna give out that info. Because here's the thing though. She read she rationalized it in our own mind. And it was like, well, this is really God doing something. Even though she knew her husband who still I guess is involved in it. They just think well, this is really God doing something even though they know they're putting the gold dust in the ventilation system. And they still think it's something God is doing that still God doing American. That's where anything there so blinded by it. They even though they're physically putting it in the ventilation system. They still think it's something from God orientated cut you off. Now. It's okay. So it's yeah. Go ahead. Anthony. In. I guess I was going to add a little bit to this in going back to something you said earlier about the treasure hunting stuff treasure hunting is what they call vandalism. So they have videos and just give it a little my background. Why why went Andrew brought up? How I have a a thing for Catholics thing for any are is because I grew up Catholic. And as it I probably a lot of professing, Christians vais, you're Catholics. I got a special angst on that. We have a lot of family members still trapped in the cult. It's for the NR. We had two friends when I got saved. My wife's one of her really good friends. Her husband's started disciples me reform pastor and over over several years just started getting some different things next thing. You know, he and his wife sell everything Goff to Weiwei m. And they come back from Wai Wim, nine months, ten months later, and they were full on Bethel. Reading people. See an I see the connection there. Anthony, I have a, you know, my son went through the stating why experience, and I could not believe that did not only our relationship for number of years. How damaging it was for his own personal faint, and where that led him to an incredible broken est. And here's the here's the quick I sent him to Mexico on emission and high school. And and why went with wi- Wim? I didn't know, you know. And and folk started prophesying over him. Oh, you're not even gonna finish school. You're going field. And he came back, and he was a complete rebel against is father. And I said son the Lord has shared any of these things with me. And I don't have a piece about what you're saying. I can't let you abandon your these this path that you've been on academic which was excellent by the way, and we really part it on just terrible terms. Now, he and I are great friends today mice. Son, Steven, but it was a difficult thing that happened as a result of these folks adults and other teens adults and teens both prophesying falsely over him one part of the call it. It's love bombing. They they are trained to this love bombing. Where they they have multiple people come up to you. And and they just shower we shower you with love with praises, and then with prophecies of courses to suck you into the whole movement. We really good at this one of the things that you mind, what we in the seeing with these prophecies is most often it is a positive in maybe hard at first, but it always ends in a positive note. So it's it may be like you're gonna lose a family member. But you're going to gain. Oh, you know, worldwide audience or something they always have an end prophecy. That is feeding to the the pride to the flesh and people want that to be true. And that's the boy. Blinding part. That's where if they're they wanna have that thing that was prophesied, and because they want that so badly now if if they give up on the NRA Colt than what they're really doing is they're giving up their chance for that prophecy to be true. It is it is a sick way of controlling people. But that's how it's used. It's used control people because what it does it gets them to really really really want that prophecy to be true because they want the result of it. And so they're going to be sucked into believing it. And now what they do is. It's a confirmation by a different sort because what you end up having. I always go uses ample, I remember, I had a friend in college. She was very much into horoscopes. I mean, everyday she check her horoscope and every day, it would be true. And she did this for years ever since she was an elementary school. And what I did was I made her read not. Just her heart scope, but every one of them every day, and the result was they were all true every day because they're so general she would look for ways to make it true happens goes, that's the fulfillment. That's it. It's done. You know? You know, that's like cold reading guys the guys do the coal reading on the second. I do they're sort of which is that the Bethel style of evangelism. We saw the movie Holy Ghost where they would come up and they start to try to cold people in ask general questions and make Haiti heard anywhere. Do you have any kind of pain anywhere? I don't know anybody who does it. Word that starts with the letter. Or L? The. Yeah. So, and you know, we see that a bunch. And so what I wanna do pull though is I do want to want to try to get we do have someone that somewhat regular traditional Catholic. I wanna give time for he and Anthony since but we may we'll see what happens next week. We might have if Matt's not in will, you know, maybe come back, and we'll continue this discussion sound good. It's not like, you don't know how to get a hold of us either. Yeah. By the way, just for folks were watching. I don't know. I've added traditional Catholic gonna turn his volume he can meet himself. I don't know why on YouTube right now something changed, but it is constantly showing just me. I'm having to click between the speakers, I don't know what happened there with with this. But if you see it on me, it's not because I think it's all about me. But I'll try to fix that. So traditional Catholic. Yeah. I can I can select all kinds of different pictures to. But that should just show for you. Just for me. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Traditional catholic. Are you here? I forget his first name. Yeah. Yeah. Yo to hear me coming in loud and clear. Yeah. What was your first name was it was a Peter. It's know James James, I knew at least was a biblical name. You know that? Okay. So so I think you I think you Anthony having already heard some of what Anthony was saying. I think that you might disagree with Anthony. I just a bit. I wanna I ask whether you I'm just out of curiosity. Do you agree or disagree with what I said, how Catholic do you think the current pope is? He is not Catholic at all. He's an anti-pope all of the post back into Pappu claimants or anti-popes, which means that are not Catholic there. There are false popes. The Vatican to the teachings of the Vatican two council are not Catholic because the Vatican two council actually contradicts all the other church councils and all the ex cathedra statements from the other past popes. So they're not Catholic at all. We'll see at least we partially agree. I just think that. Yeah. I just think the ones before we're also. But not anti-catholic maybe because I'd say anti-christian, maybe, but we're disgree so you, but I want a let you at Anthony has some fun here. Well, I I'm glad that you have Dr so best show when I saw that name. I was like, wow, Dr Savell show. This sounds like something from like a comic book or something. Whether it'd be a superhero superman, but awesome main to have. But I I think we just got it. We just got the Monica it's gonna be Dr Anthony the super villain dentist. But but I just want. Tell you that we traditional Catholics. We absolutely dogmatically believe in a young earth. We reject the idea any idea of evolution whatsoever. That the earth is owed. Now, the Vatican to set that has a dull adopted that in fact what they did a while back. They actually held a meeting whereby a conference whereby they only accepted those that were. Proponents of evolution in rejected, those that believe in intelligent, design, and and young earth. So I'm that's that's my question to you doctors so vest show. Have you ever I'm guessing you have speaking engagements different places? Have you ever had a speaking engagement with anyone in any diocese under the Vatican? Vatican two sect. No. Because if I if I spoke to the Catholic church, I wouldn't speak on creation at all. I would be preaching the gospel continuously and and teaching the bible, and why belief Catholocism to be a false religion. I believe it to be a call to actually as Andrew would have in his book. So so no, I've not had that trinity. Now having said that I have a lot of friends on Facebook. You know, you know, friends people that you haven't talked twenty years since high school, and and now they fringe you over over the years. So the number of our Catholic and we've had some interesting discussions about younger. And I you're right. There's a lot of Catholics. You don't believe in Lucien, despite what has been said over the last several popes because I think Pope John Paul the second was the first one to really make a statement on this and like nineteen ninety-five not mistaken. And so there's a lot of people at reject. The idea of evolution Catholics. I should say. But no, I've never spoken in a Catholic church. Of course, if you want to invite me, I'd be happy to go. Well, if you if you I don't know if you have any material any books or anything, but it maybe you could contact the most Holy Family monastery. If you go to Vatican, doc, Battiston, Catholic dot com. They have their contact information. And they have some information themselves of, you know, promoting a young earth. And they cite several examples. Some maybe you could collaborate with them or you could you know, send some of your information to them. And look at the information, they have as well said I wanted to know again going I wanted to know when I speak to atheists, they always bring up plate tectonics, and I don't know how to respond to that. Do you know what what's the position? What what can I say to them, you know, when they bring up the point tectonics, and they claim that it proves that the earth is old. I it's it's a different starting point to mean when we look at plate tectonics. We would say it's because of the flood the founder of the deep breaking open that this is that we would believe as biblical Christians younger creches that there was one landmass that was broken up sometime during the flood and the continents moved apart probably pretty quickly early on they're still moving. Now, I'd have really really really slow rate. But we would look at the plate to tonics all coming from the flood the one major catastrophe, but happens on this planet, and by the way, I'll Tai sin now to something Andrew set earlier with the with the understanding of vice age secular. Scientists believe there's been multiple ice ages. The reality is is that there is only been one ice age and we can demonstrate this through lots of computer modeling. That the only way you can have an ice age. Is you have to have lots and lots and lots of water that got va- paraded. You also have to have stuff like volcanic dust that would partially blocked the sun with the evaporation and have that massive amount of water come back down as snow and in. So we see wonderful models to show that as a result of floodwaters being being va- paraded that that came down over the next several hundred years or so in an ice age. So that's all that connects but I played tectonics. I I'm going to point to the flood. I and I'm not even sure why they believe that Playtex tonics has any evidence for millions to billions of years except for their belief that they also believe in Panji of sorts at the beginning of whenever that reformed, and that these continents have have broken up now in their mind. They're going to see that the slow rates that have that are occurring today in terms of of Playtex tonics and plates moving they're going to say a uniform Attaran as they're going to say that because what we see going on today being slow that. It's actually always been that way where we would say, we'll wait a minute. We looked at a global flied founds founds, the deep breaking open a major earth catastrophe that caused this to happen in a rapid manner. We can demonstrate this. We actually a number of things said decay of the magnetic field seem to to have heightened during the flood times, and several other examples that we could bring up I does that answer your question. Yeah. Yet. Absolutely. Does an and I just wanted to say, I I think you're doing great work. And I know you said that you'd bring the gospel to the Catholic church while the Catholic church already knows the gospel is the Vatican two sec that seems to have swayed away from the true church just like Protestantism. And I mean, we could discuss it. But Yes, What's the gospel? Then this Goss boy, the good news of Jesus Christ his incarnation God becoming man his life and his death for our sins for auto salvation in his resurrection. That's the gospel the gospel message, and it's not just the only gospel will message all the teachings of Jesus is also the gospel of the apostles. If you reject any of the teachings whatsoever. Then you rejecting the teachings of Jesus rejecting the teachings of God, you're rejecting the teachings of the gospel. You have to include all of that within the gospel. You can't just say, well, I believe in this little sliver part of the bible in if anyone believes that they're true Christians. That's not what the bible says. Okay. We'll specifically says that if you depart from any teaching of Jesus and the apostles your heretic. You're not a member of the church and not a member of true believers, so you have to accept all the teachings. So James is so then you would agree that that it's not by works that were saved. Correct. The teachings of the bible. Yes. It's not by our works. That were say, and that's actually what the Catholic church teaches. If you look at the council of Trent. Specifically says it's not by our works that Reseda, but where does my gods works. Yes. We're now disagree with Calvinism Calvinism says that there's no free will. And we disagree with that. We believe that. If you look at Fijian's two ten we specifically must do the works that God has laid out for the faithful. Now, that's a saying. Yes to it by choice. Now. I don't know if you're a Calvin est if you accept Calvinism or not. But Calvin is reject this. Okay. Most Protestants are not communists, which is great. But the small number of Calvin that exist. They reject that. They don't believe that you can say, yes, they leave God is sort of like a jet. I jet on mind trick on people and making people do things, you know. Whereby they have no free will hold on. Hold on haunt. Okay. I first off give strowman so your whole arguments. Invalid. Okay. Because not what Calvinism beliefs. But so you don't you. Do you believe that any works or other than what Christ did on the cross? Are there any works that contribute to our righteousness? There are no works in Catholicism's of this is what could follow teaches. And again, go to the council on typically sets this that we never know grace from our own works. Okay. New works. We do as meaningless the guy. So it is it is saying hold on. Hold on. Hold. Okay. 'cause we we only have thirty minutes left. Okay. So baptism too. So someone have to be baptized to be saved. Yes. Someone has to be ties to be saved. But remember that when somebody is baptized person, that's getting ties isn't doing any work there being baptized. In other words, a work is being done to them. But they're not doing anything. Okay. Debate with hold on. Hold on. Hold on. James hold. You going off on several top is the thing we I've we've talked about this the past because you you hit like ten different topics. We're trying to we let stay one. Okay. So short quick answers that answer specifics. Okay. So the question now that I have for you. So I just want quick answers for moment. So you're you're saying baptism is a work that someone else does to the person is that correct? It's a work that God's doing through someone to the person. It's in other words, God has laid out certain works that the faithful should do. Okay. And that would be a work that that God has laid out. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold hunt sticks. It was it was yesterday. But yesterday, look different way you're saying God does it. So God is the one who baptize the infants. Yes. Or no. Yes. Okay. So so God does it not the priest. Well, God works through persons. Just like you work through the prophets. The prophets then do anything on their own in. No, priests can do anything on his own works to persons. See this all throughout the bible, God working through individuals. So it's got always doing it. No, one can do it in and of themselves. Okay. Well, actually gonna disagree, and I'll tell you why they're plenty of Mormons get baptized. Are you going to say that God did the those baptisms? No Mormons are not Christians. They don't accept the Christian faith. Okay. Don't believe in the holy trinity. So they're not Christians. So they're bad. Tim's or invalid God's not doing anything through Mormon. Hold on. We got doing apples to apples because you're said that God does the baptism and you said no one could do that work apart from God. But now, you're accepting them Mormons can do apart from God. So why do you why is it that? How do you resolve this conflict that you just created for yourself while I just? To you. I just told you that their baptisms are invalid because they don't have belief the bible says that you must have belief Andy baptized, just as we see next to thirty eight. So you cannot if you if you don't have belief the correctly, which is a Catholic faith, and you get that. And you get that ties. Let's say you believe in faith alone. And then you get bad ties while you've got ISM is meaningless. Okay. So so you don't have the true faith. But now, you have yourself a dilemma because the the Mormon is going to say the same exact thing to you that you don't have the right belief. They do your belief is a belief that needs to be restored by Joseph Smith, your baptisms. Not valid. There's is because they do it in temple. And you don't. So the problem. You have is your the you're alternately appealing to is your confirmation bias that you believe you're Catholic church is right. And you just got you just explain something that you don't even see the contradiction. You said no one can do Baptist and no one can do work apart from God yet, the Mormon do the same exact work, and you suddenly say, well that's not from God. Now, you're explaining it away. But your your standard is your church not the bible. No, none are on my standard is the bible by I just explained to you that acts two thirty eight says, you must hold the belief, and you must repent and you must be bad ties. So you have to have all three you can't have any one of the three a lot of Protestants believe that all you need us faith alone. That's one of the three. No, you must also have the repentance, and you also have the baptism otherwise your sins are not forgiven unless you reject acts two thirty eight. I don't know. Maybe you reject to thirty have no idea. I guess what? Your bible says I reject your private interpretation of X thirty eight on. I'm not I'm not giving a private interpretation on telling you, actually, what acts two thirty eight says it says that you do not receive the remission of sins unless you believe repent and be that let's read exactly what ax thirty to thirty eight says and see if it says that all three are necessary for salvation like a hold on. If you're gonna said, you were just Rica's will hold on. If you're. Going to do that. It doesn't say the word believe, but if you go to the ax ax to thirty seven because you'll have to read X to thirty seven in along with X two thirty eight because we see in acts two thirty seven that the Jews when they heard the message, they came to believe at that moment, which is why they asked Peter Saint Peter what they must do to get by Swiss Jesus thirty seven is that what you want us to read correct with X two thirty seven and then go through acts two thirty eight sure now, and we're looking for is where it says all three are necessary to be saved as you said. You're just reading scripture you weren't giving a private interpretation. So we're looking for that exact phrase what I'm questioning let all all the house. I said what I said was you set you Seri what I said, my sack wording was all three are necessary in order for one to have their forgiveness of sins as you know, and yet, gene less one less. Just given that one is not saved in one is not what can sell it onto God unless one sins forgiven James, I I don't wanna have to play with your your to to meet you. What you said. And this is I know that you're look, I know you're having some difficulty here. I know that it's hard when you get put on the spot and your contributions get pointed out, but the right thing to do would be to give up the Catholic church and just accept truth. But what you said was you were not giving private interpretation you're reading scripture. So if you're reading scripture, we should be able to see in scripture that exact phrase that you said was not an interpretation, but exactly from scripture, correct? And it's there it's with read it. Let's fair. Okay. Let all the house of Israel, therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord. And Christ this Jesus whom you crucified now when they heard this. They were cut to the heart and said to Peter and to the rest of the apostles brothers. What shall we do? And Peter said to them repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and your see the gift of the Holy Spirit. That doesn't say what you what you said, you weren't reading it. You are interpreting it I don't see anywhere in. This is all you just said that didn't say I said, yes. So let's say in acts two thirty seven that. Does it implicitly suggest that they came to believe? No, no. When you do a suggest, but here's the whole point. When you say, it's sig- jests. That's an interpretation. You said you weren't interpreting you were reading. So were you reading or were you in Turkey what? Well, okay. Well, do you. Do you agree with me that in acts two thirty seven it implicitly suggests that the Jews at that moment came to believe, which is why they ask Saint, Peter. How do we get right with a with? Jesus. How do we get right with God? Well, what am dressing is this private interpretation that you have? Okay. I understand. I'll go ahead and concede your point. I'll concede your point Andrew and say, I'm I'm wrong. I was interpreting. So do you agree with me that acts to thirty seven that the Jews in our extra thirty seven came to believe at that moment. And two three seventy I believe that they would have gotten saved at that moment. Now, why didn't ask you if they came to if they would have gotten se I asked you if they if they came to believe at that moment. Believe what? Believe in God and Jesus Christ. Which is why they ask Saint Peter what they needed to do to get right with them. See, maybe this is the different view that we have of what salvation means. They would have to believe if they were generated. Okay. So is that a yes or no did they come to believe in X, two thirty seven so. Yes, or no. So this Texas saying that at this point, these these particular Jews at this particular time hearing, this message were regenerated, and they would've believed generated. Okay. Great. So we agree that in acts two thirty seven they came to believe. So there's no argument there, there's no disagreement. And now we move to acts two thirty eight hold on. No, no. Let's let's get to one thing though. When did they win? Did they get regenerated in this text? Right at the moment. They heard that and ask that question. Do you? Do you agree with that? They do you agree that they were generated that they believed at this moment when they hear this. If I don't know what Protestant doctrinaires with regards to Windsor generated in Protestant, doctrine, or their sense forgiven. Okay. Masking you at the moment, I heard this. I don't know because I don't know Protestant doctrine, I need to know your answer to that question. So if one is regenerated, then are their sins forgiven. Yes there since what have been forgiven across. Okay. Still look at what acts to thirty seven says. It says you you're not green would answer my question. If I answered yours, I answer yours. Now. You're gonna answer mine. That's the way this works. You said you needed to my answer to be able to respond. So Al at the moment that they heard this. In in acts thirty seven they heard and they were cut to the heart. Now when when they were cut to the heart. Did they believe? Yes. Okay. Were they then a I'm gonna try to try use words that might not cause confusion for you with you present doctrine. Would that be the time that they now are would be a child of God being an go turning from an enemy God to child of God. No. And let me explain why. Because you just said that Protestant action says that region ration- and forgiveness remission of sins occurs at regeneration. And yet if we look at acts two thirty eight we don't see that the remission remission of sins occurs until they repent and baptize so therefore baptism believe. I'm sorry holding believe repenting and being that ties all three things that must be accomplished in order for the remission of sins as you say regenerating to occur. If you go by X two to thirty seven to thirty eight you can't disregard what it's saying there. You can say, well, let's just this regard the repentance and baptism part in. Let's just say, hey, they believe and just add to scripture, which is an inscription in said, we have to go ahead and accept when x two thirty seven to thirty eight says, which is that you. Must believe you must repent, and you must be baptized in order for your sense to be forgiven, which you said is regeneration. Well, when was the payment of sin paid for? Two thousand years ago. Okay. So their baptism couldn't beat for their mission of sins. If it was paid for two thousand years ago, well, then you're disagreeing with the bible, which actually links water, not a new Jesus blood on the agreeing with you of it because there's see this is the problem when when you had the the word baptism, which we have a perfectly good English word for by the way, it's called to dip or to plunge. But when we created a word for baptism the assumption. Is that there's only one baptism water baptism. But there's not there several baptisms. Okay. Then you just with the bible because the bible says under the new covenant. There's only one baptism. Yes. There's there is there is only one into welling of the Holy Spirit. I agree with that. There's a bunch. You said there's no one where you just agree to there's lots of plunging. Okay. See that you're doing. And this is what you I you. Maybe you have to do is a foul of qualification to use one term and use it multiple ways or to take something that could have multiple meanings, but use the same term to say, it's all the same thing. But it's a healthy. Did that you just did that when you said that there's multiple baptisms? Okay. So there's is there a baptism of the Holy Spirit. There is about the Holy Spirit. But tisza. Tis them under the new covenant the bible explains. What aboutism under the new covenant. It does in Zeki twenty inches. Thirty six explains very clearly with that what the baptism is with the new covenant. Sign would be is the dwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is that the Holy Spirit will dwell each believer that my friend is what is equal twenty three thirty. Let's see thirty six. Okay. That is what it is. So you have it wrong. According to scripture, Ezekiel thirty six as the sign of the new covenant will be what we call the baptism away spirit. The fact that the that God's spirit will live within us. We will no longer need a priest to tell us what God's word is. Because the spirit will do it within us. Okay. So that's the baptism of spirit. You just said there's only one baptism now. You're a gin in contradiction with yourself because he just said there's two baptisms by the way is what I was saying that there's a water baptism. There's a baptism in the hoist. Spirit. There is also a baptism. That is the what John the Baptist did which would have been a Jewish ceremony. That's not the baptism of either one. So you have John's baptism you have the baptism of and you have the baptism the Holy Spirit. So there's three baptisms. Now, why do you have three because someone didn't translate? They transliterated. The didn't translate the word baptism. Oh into dip plunge because they would sprinkle the water and pour the water, and therefore they didn't want to translate it properly. And therefore, there wouldn't have been the confusion on what the Holy Spirit plunging is versus water plunging versus a ceremony that was done in a Jew when a gentile became a Jew, which would have been with John the Baptist it. Okay. So we now we now see that you accept multiple baptisms, which is nice. So again, we go back to the passage, and well, no, no, no, no. You just put words I didn't say that. I said multiple about. Games for co uses of baptism that are shown in the bible, for example. I will get I will ask you again. So we're clear is there a baptism the Holy Spirit. Yes, or no there is about some of the Holy Spirit is not that to them under the new covenant. And I explain fueled me is that the same thing as water baptism. If you're speaking of the into the Holy Spirit, then yes into the Holy Spirit occurs. When one was gets what about ties, so they're they're exactly the same thing. Well, we see that the season the Holy Spirit can occur before one gets what about ties, and we see that it can happen. When one gets what about ties, and we see later on after when gets back ties you much later, you said that that the water baptism or star that the that the Holy Spirit baptism the sign in the new coven could occur before water baptism. The holiest activism is a metaphor use of receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit such as speaking in tongues prophecy, that's what the Holy Spirit baptism refers to if you speaking of the indoor Elling of the Holy Spirit that occurs when you actually get what about ties under the new covenant. If we if we look at the passage you wanted us to look at it makes it quite clear with this baptism is. Because it says exactly almost word for where what you just said because it says to be baptized every one of you in the Nima Jesus Christ for the forgiveness sins and you'll receive the gift of spirit. So that's the the baptism of the spirit. What do you know? It's exactly the main issue. This isn't the boys. What about to them linked to the blood of Christ? And one of us is reading the bible and one of us is interpreting the bible, and you're the one doing the private interpretation just saying well, the Fiji ins four five. Under the new covenant. Why are you jumping what do this a lot? So why are you jumping I'm going to the bible there? Fijian's four five says is only one says seasons four five and the issue there, then we could we're gonna see when we go there which baptism is it the water baptism the baptism of John or the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which ones being referred to there. Well, we have is speaking what aboutism because it's speaking of the baptism that Jesus. Instituted under the new covenant in Matthew twenty eight nineteen twenty you gotta jump to. Why can't you do this? Why can't you stick to one passage? You wanted to go to Fiji four Safeway have agreement on something. Do you agree with me that when Jesus spoke about Tim in Matthew twenty eight nineteen twenty was he speaking of what aboutism. Well, he wasn't speaking of baptism speaking about being plunged immersed now which was. What about this? Correct. No. You're plunged emerged in water, right or the Holy Spirit and John's his was different than the baptism that we would refer to after Christ. Is it not? John's baptism. You're saying. John John's baptism is different from about of Christ because John's baptism didn't have the grace of Jesus sacrifice on the cross which enables us or maybe or maybe John's baptism was a baptism of Jew agenda becoming a Jew, and now it wouldn't have that same significant. So the same exact act changed the meaning because now after Christ it had a different meaning much like we see with Passover changing with the into Lord's supper and things like that. So that we do have cases where we had the same exact behavior. Same exact work and the meaning of changes because Christ. So we may explain to you because the thing is we've you've your keep jumping around scripture. I know I know this tactic that people if you don't allow me to speak. I mean, all I wanna do is explain to you why you're wrong. And and I'll go ahead and show you scripture that that you're all seem to want. Won't allow me to do. It's not that. No, James what it is. You can't obey the simple laws of harmony six you're jumping all over the bible. You're you're using logical fallacies once you appeal to a logical fallacy than your your argument is invalid. So your argument wants you used a fallacy equivocation on the one word baptism yard invalid. There again, I didn't use vacation because I'm not the one that's saying that there's more than one baptism. Okay. Self says. There's only one so this. I know this is hard for you. I understand. Is John's baptism separate from the baptism after Christ. Yes, or no, yes. Okay. Is the baptism ahoy spirit different than John's baptism and the baptism after Christ. Yes. Okay. So there's three baptisms the one word is used three different ways. There you go. But you're speaking. Okay. Go home. The original topic was the gap Tisza for the remission of centuries as the bad Tisza of the new covenant. So only speaking of one bad design. We're not speaking John's at. Speaking of the art. Us beginning skirt. Okay. Speaking of the new covenant about Tim's. Plus, they focused on that. Sure. So we're only speaking of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Correct now water baptism. But there's no I already show I already I ready. You're ready a quote gated heavily spirit. So is referring to receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit such as speaking in tongues. Prophesying never does the bible say that the gift of the baptism the Holy Spirit. That does any grace associated with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Just out there. It doesn't say this any grace associated with the fire. So here. Say there's any grace associated with the baptism when the Jews cross the Red Sea with no it said they were ties to Moses. So it's all metaphor cases of the word bat Tisza, the only true bat Tisza under the new covenant is the one that Jesus instituted in Matthew twenty eight nineteen through twenty which is what aboutism which is. Why we see me Peter himself calling on on believers to get water bapti? So that they can be saved. Okay. So here's the thing. All right. I'm gonna try to make this really clear. I know you're you're because you're blinded because you're part of a cult. You cannot see I understand that. But you just stated that the only baptism is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Which is what this mentioned right here in the ex passage that you wanted us to look at and then. He didn't say the only baptism was about to them. The Holy Spirit. You're listening to me. You can go back and religion to yourself and see that you know, I Tisza of the Holy Spirit is okay. Yes. The Holy Spirit, which means speaking in tongues prophesying, we're just gonna quite you down while I finish my sentence. Then because we're almost to the end. So here's the thing. Okay. What he said here folks is that the baptism is the baptism moist associated with the giving of gifts, which is exactly what it says here in this passage in acts. It is the one where gifts are given. That's not the water. So this is what you hand up having to have when you're stuck in something. He he is a quick ating on the term baptism. He wants to say water baptism when it's convenient say spirit baptism when it's convenient. And the reality is is that because of that he's going to, unfortunately, if he doesn't repent of this. He's gonna spend attorney lake afire because he thinks baptism water. Baptism is necessary for salvation because spirit baptism is required. For salvation. So we would agree that we have to repent and be baptized with the Holy Spirit who gives gifts just as it says in the ex passage that he quoted the referred us to because in that passage. We are baptized with the Holy Spirit. Which is what we see as the sign of the new covenant not water baptism. That he crisis the water baptism is removing the sins. That's not what the passage turn to though says seeing this is the thing that you end up seeing he had to acquit acute on the terms. Because what this passage says is speaking of a baptism of the Holy Spirit. Who will give the gifts? That's exactly what it said. All I had to do is read that it doesn't say anywhere in here. Water you see he reads that into it. He interprets that by private interpretation into the text because that's what the Catholic church says, it means when it says quite clearly here that be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the Holy Spirit. It tells you which baptism. This is. This is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. That's when we get saved water baptism comes after. The irony is even accepted that and he's he said that that would be something. That could happen. You could have a separation in these two. So this is the thing we only have a couple of minutes left. So we unfortunately won't be able to continue. And I kind of thought that Anthony was gonna jump in. And then I jumped in sorry. I'm the website. He pointed out this. Was Vatican cath dot com. It's almost like they believe this. The this. The letter popes to be like what we would call the Piscopo aliens are the editor price like complete heretical sect of of the Catholics. They have a section on here. That is to is document dot it's documentary on prostate his big justification lie. And what if I'm fascinating about this? They have they have seven pictures six of which are really good the alot Jains. They got Martin Luther the got RC sprawl the John MacArthur. They have John piper. They have done Calvin picture him James wall. And in this list of wonderful preachers. Stephen anderson. I find odd. But. That's that's because they don't understand the difference between Stephen Anderson and all those guys, right? Right. So so we'll wrap up we try to keep this to two hours. James? I do hope you come back, and we can have more spirited discussions. And it's you know, I hope folks on stand James, and I are going to have some spirited discussion. James Madel have them. Maybe even Anthony and him. If I were to let Anthony jump in. Actually, I did for folks who to know. I did in the chat say, hey, ethnic. Sorry. I jumped I told you were going to jump in. And he said, no, I'm just listening. So. But you know, the thing is, you know, there is one thing that I do wanna convey and that is. James, and I make it very spirited in our disagreements and we do disagree. He describes me if he's going to follow Roman, Catholic theology. He would think that I'm destined to hell because I believe in grace alone, not through a work of baptism that human does or even a human does to another. But the reality is is that I would say it's by Graceland faith alone in Christ alone that there is no church that interprets scripture forth there are no priests. Because the that is what the promise of the new covenant was to Jewish people was that when messiah comes we no longer need a priesthood because the Holy Spirit would dwell us and teach us his word. The fact that they have priests and say that there cannot be private interpretation proves that they are not under the new covenant just the thought. But why is that a concern? That's concern for me because I want James. To have attornal life right now. He's he's unfortunately in a condition of being condemned under God's word. He's going to disagree with that vehemently disagree with that. Because he thinks he's following God's word. But folks, you saw how he acquitted Cates on terms like baptism. You see that he says there's only one baptism then agrees that there's three separate baptisms that have different meanings. They're not the same. And so that's the game that has planned. This is what people do in their minds when they wanna believe something. Whether it's the any or like Paul's talking about earlier with his his his family member, they want to believe this. They want it to be true. And they're basing literally basing their attornal soul on this. But we need to do trust with scripture says alone. Now, I know that you have people say, well, I'm just reading scripture, but they weren't because when he said, I was just reading scripture. That's not what scripture said. And then what do you have to do? He had to quit Kate on the term baptism to read a different baptism in. Then the one that the word actually says there you see this is the game that gets played a lot. And that's what's going to condemn people to help is when they believe something. And he said it he said that the gospel is believing the word of God. And yet you just saw he doesn't believe the word of God. Because he's a quick aiding terms. He would be by his own definition, a heretic, but he, but he thinks that applies to us not him. All I did was read the scripture. That's all I did. I didn't need to go beyond that. I didn't have to jump all over the bible to to see what the one verse says that's part of the rules of interpretation. And so my concern is for not only him. But where anyone listening to where we you spend attorney that is the most important question because if you die in a rebellious state against God thinking that you can work your way to heaven you will SP. Attorney in a lake afire in. I don't wanna see that for any of you. I wanna see you have turn life. We all break God's law, but we have to turn from trusting ourselves or our good nature that we think is good or our good works and turn to trust in Jesus Christ. That's how you have attornal life. And I pray that James will do that. It would be great rejoicing for many of us here when we see if if that was to happen with him. And the thing folks is this is something we pray that you would be blessed by that. You learn things we're not on doing this apologize live just to have debates. Just I mean, it's it is could be enjoyable spirited conversations where there's name calling and James, and I didn't get into calling each other names, and such and that's how we can disagree. We both think are each other's wrong. Okay. And so the thing is that this is something we do to help people. Learn how to discuss. Our differences to be able to defend the faith the biblical faith that we see in the bible. And if you want to see ministries like this continue it takes your support. Okay. If you'd consider donating to help this. You can help us continue not only this. But other works that we're doing so you could go to striving for turn any dot ORG slash donate and donate. What what can you get from? That will cause we give we actually give gifts. If you donate two dollars a month. You'll get a copy of what do we believe? If you give five dollars a month. You get the copy of what do we believe? Plus, you'll get a copy of what do they believe he'll get both books. If you give five dollars a month. If you give ten dollars a month, you get those two books, plus the one that Anthony was just mentioning the book on the origin of kinds. So you'll get all three of those. If you give just ten dollars a month. If you give twenty dollars a month, you'll get those three plus a copy of sharing the good news with Mormons, you'll get all for those book, by the way sharing. Good news. With Mormons alone is twenty dollars. You get off for those for a donation of twenty dollars a month. If you give twenty five dollars a month what we're doing with that is we take that money. And we try to find a missionary that we can help them get a podcast to get him to quit and the hosting. So they would be able to be podcasting instead of sending emails reports. So that's what we'd be looking. So if you support us, it helps us to go out and do more we're going to be doing some speaking events to let you know. Actually, Anthony years is coming up before mines all that. You mentioned you're speaking of ends. I you got some things coming up this actually this week, right? Yes. So this Sunday will be the first of three Sunday sermons on vandalism. It's a pastor who who knows that the way to grow church Biblically as is through Vangelis efforts. And so I'm going to be going down there and teaching us about forty minutes from my house here said it's local which is nice. Where's it at do? You know, the name of the church in. Yeah. It's Medina bible church in Medina, Ohio. Pastor, Mark rice and out. What school is all be able to? I I'm taking the associate pastor David Duale, and we are going to be going to Cleveland state next Thursday, and I actually put that on Facebook as well for anybody wants come on. Evangelize at Cleveland state. It's one of my favorite places to go. And I've got five hundred of the booklets what time is purple from wretched radio, and our a give every one of those away if everything goes according to plan, and I'm gonna be teaching the associate pastor kind of how to do vandalism out there. And he so he and I'm gonna be working together. A lot over the next couple of months as he's going to learn and then be able to help teach his church and start taking out your speaking at church three times of those dates. So it's it's this Sunday. And then it'll be I think it's may nineteenth and may twenty six okay rebates, and I will be heading out to the Philippines starting. I think may sixteenth. I actually I head out to Justin Peters church to conference with Jason Lisle. Then we had Justin I head out to the Philippines. But here's the thing. Your support helps us get. To the Philippines and address this NAR. That's that is prevalent out there because they need the help they need their. We're gonna be doing a couple of conferences while we're out there. I'm going to be doing a conference on to a bunch of church leaders church discipline. Then I'll be Justin we'll be dealing dealing with doing a seminar on child of angel ISM. I'll then do a basic conference on open air evangelism. And just in Arkansas. Take people out on the streets than just going to be doing a conference a on discernment. We're gonna do that both in Manila and in Sabuku. Now, the church is down. There are taking care of everything. Once we land in the Philippines. The thing is we need your help to get to Philippines. We're still looking to raise support. So we can get over there. And that's where you can help us. If you go to striving for Turney slash donate. You choose to use patriotic or pay pal? Either way, though, whichever way you do we will give those gifts out to you. And it helps us get to the Philippines. So we can help. Get the gospel out the biblical gospel out around the world. So I thank you guys. I hope that you will consider helping us out and supporting us politics live is a ministry of striving for turn ity. We do it in coordination with Karm to good ministries. Mets is with Karm. I'm with striving for Turney, we do this. As a means of trying to help the church to better prepare the church to defend the faith of Jesus Christ. I hope that you got some help in that in many different areas tonight, whether it be creation, whether it be new apostolic reformation or Catholicism, I hope that what you listen to was helpful in that defense of the gospel until next week next week Matt will be back, and we'll be discussing more, and I should say while at the Philippines. I hope you enjoyed doctors federal because he's going to be filling in and he and Madame prime talking a lot about any are and the creation science because that'll be a big topic of with both of them. So look forward to that in a few weeks until next week. Remember to share this with other make sure that you're in here early next week, Thursday nights, eight o'clock, you can go to poject live dot com. See then.
029 Disagree and Commit
"Thanks for pressing play. This is locked on marketing. And I'm Christopher lockhead now. All of us is marketing leaders and frankly is executives and entrepreneurs understand that every big decision and for some reason marketing decisions are very hot in this area involves a a group of people and so In business if you're going to do something legendary whether it's a strategy or campaign or even another areas of the business of course multiple people will be involved involved. It will be a group decision on this episode. Let's talk about. Why getting people to understand that they need to disagree and commit is one of the most powerful powerful skills you can have as an executive now we're sponsored by my good friends at Oracle net sweet learn how to turbo charged the growth of your business today at net sweet dot com slash different? That's net sweet dot com slash different. Because if you don't know your numbers you can't grow your business and my friends at Spiro. Oh dot AI. Are the proactive relationship. Management Company. You see Spiro helps. You harness the power of machine learning and AI to close more deals. Faster Checkout S. P. I R. O. Dot A. Today and while you're out there on the Internet surfing around why not visit lockhead head Dot Com L. O. C. H. H. E. and sign up for our newsletter. The difference it's free. We share ideas from this odd cast as well as follow your different cool who'll insights and inspirations you can't get anywhere else and it's free and over my dead body. Will we ever sell your email address to anybody now. Hey Ho let's go. This is long marketing. The podcast that helps you develop a lens for what makes legendary marketing legendary posted by Christopher lockhead three times. CMO Godfather category designed and a High School Dropout with the Marketing Journal calls and one of the best minds in marketing. And the economists calls off putting to some all right disagreeing commit this. This episode is inspired by a recent conversation. I had with legendary technology executive a Lisa Steele on episode one twenty nine failure different and on the episode one one of Things Lisa touches on is the power of being able to disagree and commit now as a marketing leader. CMO Or frankly CEO or executive any kind On big decisions we get a lot of help and for some reason in marketing we get a lot of and I put help here in. Air quotes Even more help than I think. A lot of other department department leaders or Group leaders in business get and so I think debate and discussion and disagreement are good things. When we're we're working on strategies or creative ideas or new campaign ideas or for trying to design a category etc and so I think debate discussion and agree? A disagreement disagreement are good. Here's what I think is bad consensus because what I've learned is if everybody agreed by definition the decision probably probably sucks. If someone is scared maybe even little upset or at least a little concerned. The decision we've just made is probably not a legendary everyone and so if you understand this How do you get in front of it from the very first meeting when you're working on a new initiative in marketing tell people well number one we want to do something legendary here number to China Jim generate as many legendary ideas and creative strategies as possible in the beginning? When we're we're in the you know what the consultants call the quote unquote idea stage And number three when we finally decide we're going to lock and load and we're going to execute like my friend marketing assassin. Rick Bennett says like a pack of speed crazed wolverines and so I think it's essential to lay that foundation on Dacian upfront in the first meeting and And understand as we go forward and frankly tell people this that some people Maybe potentially even board members of the company or senior executives will not like the strategic decision that we make and that's okay let everybody know from the beginning. It's fine nine and here's what they also need to know. We are not aiming for consensus. Were amazing legendary results so from the start of the project let everybody know a who the decider is in business. It's great to get feedback. It's great to get input. It's great to consider ideas but most businesses says are not democracies and so making it clear who the sole decider is you know typically in marketing it's the CMO sometimes of course it's a CEO but make that very clear. Second set the expectation that we expect even if you violently disagree with the decision that we make that everybody audie on the team is going to commit an that might mean disagreeing commit even if you hate it and you know I want to share share with you a story about this I was involved with a major strategic category design initiative a little while ago and it was uh the future of the company was really at stake and it was a multi multi month process that included the board the senior executive team of course the marketing team team senior sales leaders senior product leaders etc.. And as we were going through this one of the major leaders in marketing decided that he did not like the kind of leading candidate idea for the new category that was emerging and he even brought forth a competing heating idea and tried to sort of UNHOOK the decision. That was in the process of being made which frankly I think is fair game. If you have a competing idea that you think is better. I think you should stand up and talk about that anyway. Here's what happened over time This marketing leaders counter idea was not chosen and The idea that was sort of in play from the beginning ended up becoming the idea. I thought this guy was probably going to have to get fired. Given how much he disagreed with the idea for the new category that had been decided and this guy did something I have rarely seen in my career. He did did what you could think of as a complete stop change. Start and the minute. The decision was taken. He got on board and he executed like a pack of speed crazed Wahlberg Wolverines and later on through the process as the execution was going forward. I pulled this guy set aside and I said you know I'm incredibly impressed. Most people who disagree as much as you do can't get on board with the decision that they disagreed with and we had a powerful conversation around why he thought it was important essentially to disagree and commit and once the decision was made he got over it and got on with it and I think that's incredibly powerful and I think it's an important skill and one that I've always tried to get behind. There have been points in my career where I disagreed and I wanted the world to think I think even if I hated the idea if this was the idea that was being committed to that I I loved it and I was on board from the get-go and I think that's what legendary leaders do do and I think it's especially important marketing. Where big marketing decisions tend to get a lot of visibility train? Everybody coach everybody condition. Everybody that that we are going to WE'RE GONNA launch. We're going to get aggressive. We're going to execute an order to do that. People are going to disagree and part of being legendary marketing leader. Frankly part of being legendary executive is the ability to disagree and commit all right. We would like to thank the amazing Marketing podcast gas marketing over coffee with my buddy John Wall. If you love marketing check it out marketing over coffee if you WANNA design dominate legendary categories. My Friends Eh. Category Design Advisors Dot Com can. Help you check them out. CATEGORY DESIGNED ADVISORS DOT COM if you're in the UK and you want to do some legendary marketing and trend Jax you've heard him on this odd cast checkout positive marketing. That's Paul Mars Company in the UK Positive Marketing Dot Com speaking of legendary companies. They do marketing outside the US my friends at rapid media DOT COM dot. A you are the leading Independent Agency Agency in Australia for legendary marketing across all platforms check him out a rapid media DOT COM dot. AU and also check out the number one bestseller from my friend. Bruce Cleveland traversing the traction gap. I think is a must read before entrepreneurs and speaking something that I think is a must one of my favorite podcasts. grumpy old deeks. Check it out wherever you get legendary. PODCASTS the thought I'll leave you with comes from Asia. Paul Satra who said commitment is an act not a word. Stay legendary my friends and until were together again while you're different
Episode 444: The Man Who Fell to Earth (1976)
"Did you know you can get more value from your Medicare coverage choose optima Medicare HMO and get medical and prescription drug coverage coverage plus benefits like dental vision and allowance for over the counter products with plans starting at just steer dollars per month. The Medicare annual enrollment period ends on December seventh. So visit US online today. Learn more at OPTIMA. Health Dot com slash Medicare the Christopher media. Let's make some noise. Are you the first fest one. This has been. This isn't nothing you have seen or heard about David. Bowie will prepare you for the impact. The impact of his first dramatic performance in the man who fell to Earth. This is another dimension of David Bowie. One of the few true originals about time really a freak. I don't mean that unkindly I like fix. This is a weapon. Eleven to small for Planetary Travel. See them that it's a weapon. If I stay here doc take me with you. You don't tell me constantly. Yeah I think too much about. Are you taking me. WHO's like everybody else? He's he's he's a fake. Please don't understand. You might be able to save him Mary a new help me command the the man who nfl to Earth is a powerful love story a cosmic mystery spectacular fantasy a shocking mind stretching. Experience this site in space and sayings welcome come to the projection booth. I'm your host. Mike quite join me. This week is Mr Schism. Everything begins and ends in eternity. Also back in the booth is Ms Sam Degan we kick off Sifi December what they look at Nicholas rogues. The man who fell to Earth based on the book by Walter Tavist the Film Stars. Ars David Bowie as Thomas. Jerome Newton a strange man who appears in the office of a patent attorney with some big ideas that help them start on the road to untold wealth. Along the way he meets some colorful characters such as Candy Clark as Mary Lou a hotel worker and rip torn as a college professor. We will be spoiling doing this film all to hack. So if you haven't seen it police check it out and come back. We will still be here so when was the first time you saw the man who fell to Earth and what did you think I think I've only seen the film three times and I think that the first time was in the early nineties when I was working in a video store I mean. I'm a huge Bowie fan so I was very much aware of it. I saw pictures from the film in magazines for years. But it wasn't until I actually found a vhs copy that I could sit down and watch it. I wasn't sure what I thought. What about it? Of course they thought Bowie was really cool. And and I like Nicholas rogues filmmaking but yeah I kind of scratching my head a little bit after after. You're watching this one. I've now seen it a third time. I just watched it yesterday. Prep preparation for this recording. And I like it a lot more now than I did comb still scratching my head a little bit parts of it. How about you SAM? When Netflix I became a thing? I was so excited about it. That I added all these movies. I would just do sort of net flicks roulette and like not really see what was coming the next week. It was something that had always been on my list of things to see because of Bowie. But I didn't know anything about it and I think that was the best way for me at least to go into Hewitt and I just absolutely fell in love with it. I think because it's sort of my idea of what I want. Science fiction to be rather than this sort of like star wars generic space opera type thing. If if that makes sense you mean all them. Yoda's and Shit no baby Yoda's in this movie. I think I also saw the Swan. I'm vhs the first time and end cadrillion remember how old I was. But I will admit that I really didn't understand this movie very well at all the first probably two two or three times that I saw and maybe even more than that. But it's one of those movies that I keep going back to because I feel like I want to crack the code. Like there's more to this. I think reading Walter Services novel definitely helped. There are more things that can kind of understand now the filmmaking and the way that the story is told puts me off sometimes but not in a bad way. I mean we've talked about nick rogue on this show uh-huh before and I like this kind of fractured time. That he does and some of the more. I don't know just interesting at its that he chooses uses to do. I'm still trying to figure out a lot of this movie so this isn't going to be like. Hey we're going to tell you everything that there is in the man who fell to Earth. Because I don't know if I necessarily understand everything but that's what makes it great. There's an awful lot of detail in the film. That doesn't seem all that necessary necessary that I figured is probably There's probably more explanation for it in the book and a but then at the same time. There's a lot of stuff that isn't explained explained in the film that if they removed the unnecessary stuff they would have more time to explain the stuff that isn't explained. What are some of the things that feel that way for for you I I kind of feel like the whole back story of Bryce the whole You know sleeping with all the the students at the college. I don't really know how that is necessary to his character. Once he finally becomes part of the story but it seemed like there was a lot of time. And I kind of get the feeling that was a chance to throw throwing a lot of gratuitous nudity. It kinda seemed like all right we get it this guy. He's sleeping with these students. You know there's things that you know when I'm done watching the film I'm and thinking okay. What was that all about? And why did they explain that. But then I think about things like well. We sat there and watched all those sex scenes. They could have cut those out made room for explanations of other things. How how many other movies do you get? were girl talks into returns penis. Are there have to be at least one or two other ones. I would hope so may be made store. Yeah Yeah I don't I don't know I feel like that's why I love it so much because I tend to like a real thing. Long Art House movies views with minimal scenes of exposition. And I know that that's not for everyone but I think in a lot of ways that's what this is it just he kind of let the camera go and you do get the sense. That there's a fair amount of Improv. Which I love but I definitely think it makes this an acquired taste like I don't think I would ever meet a casual sci fi fan and say a all man if you love science fiction you really need to watch the man who fell to Earth? But you're right though. This is minimal science fiction. Yes David. Bowie is playing playing an alien but I think you could eliminate that and have this just a story of isolation and someone. WHO's not not of this time this was made in the mid Seventies? This is around the time where a lot of the stories about Howard Hughes and how he was locked away way in Las Vegas and had jars zone urine and all those kind of things and Thomas Jerome Newton to me. Feels like he and Howard Hughes could have been buds Hudson that way like he doesn't go so far as collecting his own urine but I think he would be fine being isolated from other people just because he is literally. I'm not the earth but figuratively as well. That's what a lot of the other scenes. Kind of underline is that everyone is extremely isolated. And I mean. Maybe that's just me at this point having seen a lot of roques films where that's kind of the predominant theme team and so I feel like those rip torn scenes provide Kevin Important contrast or even maybe a comparison to show you that. Yes he's from another planet or at least you know there's a reading of this film where he's not actually an alien he's just really paranoid. Hi De Imagining those sequences. But in either case it's like everyone is so isolated it's so depressing. Rip Torn introduced to him as being this Lothar. Eeo College professor. WHO's sleeping with his students and we get him with? I'm thinking three girls but there are two girls during this one sequence where we're cutting back and forth between these two sequences quences and it really feels to me like they just said okay. We're going to film the same sequenced two times with two different actresses and then we're going to cut the two things together because the lions are almost exactly the same but to your point. Sam If feels then like this is all scripted and this is just so wrote with with this guy that almost every encounter. He has with one of his students is going to end up sounding acting almost exactly the same some some of rogues editing style makes it as both of you explain the first time you watch this. You're just like what the hell sometimes in a good way. But sometimes in a way where it's like two disorienting. To make sense of it there will be moments where the camera will just be like. I don't know riding riding around in the back of a limousine and then we'll see fireworks and it's like okay. I'm not sure we're these. Fireworks are coming from. I'm not exactly sure how they fit into the story but there they are and so then it's up to us. I guess to try to figure out what's going on with this and sometimes I just want to say it's just there because it's there sometimes I think things in this movie are just there because they're pretty but I do WanNa talk about the star of the film because a lot of times David Bowie will overshadow this film as being film and I think that this film works so much better because billy is in it because Bowie has the weight that his persona has star persona had especially at this moment. David Bowie is. He's immortal I mean he's they always had that that presents to him at least as far as I'm concerned and then having him as this alien I think worked so well because he is super fucking skinny. He's got the the two-tone hair going on he's got the two different colored is the one I that's always more dilated than than the other. And he gives off that presence. Not just because he's got the English accent and he he is pretending to be an Englishman here in the United States. Very much like everybody. who was making? This movie was coming over from England but he also also has that that other worldliness of his own body. I can't imagine this with anyone else. It's a stupid redundant thing to say. Oh it wouldn't and do the same thing. If a different actor was cast elite but I just I feel like this is one of those performances. Where with certain like to provide provide a comparison? I guess with certain of those like great. Hollywood films are great British films where the central performance is just a really powerful stage actor. Sometimes I feel like you could swap some of those people out and he would get a different movie but an equally effective movie and I think to your point if it it. was anyone other than Bowie. I think the movie would just really fall flat because without his her sonal on his sort of charisma you wouldn't care about the character boase said and a lot of interviews that that he was pretty much playing himself you know. I saw the list of people that were considered. For the role Mick Jagger and stuff and they probably would've played themselves as well so anybody else in that row would have made that character completely clearly different than it definitely would not have been anything like the movie we ended up with and I can't think of another person that could have been cast in there. I think a lot of the reason the film is the film has a lot to do with. Because it's Bowie. Yeah it may still become a cult film with somebody else but it's really hard to imagine what this film could have been like with with somebody else. Yeah love that whole thing of rogue using rockstars in his films with Jagger and performance or Garfunkel uncle and bad timing and then Bowie in this one it felt like it was the perfect people to be in these roles and the I imagine that Jagger would have brought something think to this but Jagger. Yeah he's kind of funny looking but he doesn't have that alienness and then that character his it's Stage Persona for a long time was an alien. And so it's just it just felt like such a perfect match Bowie also seems like the intellectual Rockstar Rockstar and even the stories about making this thing when he showed up with three hundred books and they they laughed about how he didn't read enough. Who else would have shown up on set with three hundred books? I don't think for some reason I don't think Mick Jagger would have I think Mick Jagger would have shown up with cabinet full liquor and three three hundred teenage girls drugs definitely play a good role as far as this otherworldliness too. I mean I think he was pretty I don't think he was necessarily really doing drugs at the time while this movie is being shot or maybe. I'm just naive committed. That he said he said he was. He said he was doing like a pretty big bag of coke pretty much every day on set and was very paranoid than the way he got through who it was. He didn't really read the full script. He just would like look at what he was supposed to do that day and would just get through the day and so I think that's part of why he seems so alien. Guess and like he was saying in this interview that I was just reading. He was talking about how he was feeling like a person living in two different worlds at the time because of how he he just wasn't handling his fame very well or it was starting to exhaust him and I think probably the combination of a diet of milk in cocaine. It will make you extremely dissociated paranoid. Having seen a lot of people on Coke. Look at it's like I can't imagine how much coke you would have to do to act like that. Well that's why I was wondering if it's heroin because it just seems more like a A. He's kind of out of it rather than being hyped up. which is what I always associate with cocaine? Well I think if you do a lot of cocaine over a sustained period period of time. You're alert but you're not hyped up like ready to party you enter a sort of a my understanding is that. It's it's kind of like when you have bipolar. And you're in sort of an upswing. You're in this a manic state or with different kinds Bipolar there's a state called Hypo mania where you're just really alert and focused on things and it can make you seem a little standoffish. And so I feel like it's just because he did so much and you also have to think that like if he wasn't eating regular meals that probably contributed to eh however he was behaving it's amazing he lived through that I mean in the film seems like there's an awful lot of alcohol it's on I you know I would expect that on a real film set they would You know they might have the real bottles but fake liquid in them but you never know there could have been. Alcohol added to that that makes yeah and that's really at the heart of both the book and the movie I think is the this whole thing of alcoholism and the way that we see. Thomas Your Own Newton move from water and how precious water is to him to going into lying and then engine and then harder spirit says he goes along and that is so much of a part of the book is almost every character in every chapter is drinking or being offered drinks. I mean the first time that he meets with the Buck Henry Character. He's being offered a drink and he chooses to do water. And that really makes sense because water is like the most precious commodity on the planet that he's from if he's even from another planet because I think that's one of the things too is that while doing the research is hearing Bowie. Say That you know. He's assumed to be an alien from outer space. But it's is that necessarily true and the more that I think about it the more I wonder if those instances of him being in outer space or any of those things if that's all like delusions. I know that that doesn't necessarily add up with the Mary Lou stuff though once she tries to. Oh Oh my God that whole scene. It's okay She sees that he has alien form and then she pretty pretty much immediately after she wets herself she kind of swallows her pride or something and then tries to have sex with them. And I'm like really. You're going to do that right now. Now this just seems a little soon. Don't King Shame I'm trying to Yuck your yama anything but in even that whole scene is just so so trippy with like the the milk and the bodies and The the slow motion all of those things going on. So I'm just like is this even real. I'm very curious. Is the film trying to tell us. Maybe we shouldn't believe everything that we necessarily see. Is that that that moment that the fireworks that is bringing up earlier where. I'm just throwing it away. Should I think of these things as being more of what's inside of Newton's head than what's actually happening the real world. There's no question that he's an alien because he I guess the proof for me is that he has this technology the patents in everything that it sounds like no human could have come up with all of these. No human being would stack books like this like he would have to be the smartest person on the planet but it would have been interesting to really leave it open like is he or isn't he like I mean I guess that's sort of what we're discussing right now but I feel like there's almost too much stuff saying that. He is and not leaving it open to to a question you're familiar with the phrase man's reach exceeds his grass. Men's grasp exceeds is not society only tolerates one change. At the time. I I might try to change the world. I was hailed as visionary second time it was asked politely to retire those sequences that we're talking talking about with her could kind of be explained away by. DT's like she could be hallucinating from alcohol abuse. But I have to agree that overall the way it ends where he sees everyone age and he remains the same name. That's not super open ended but I also think this is the kind of film where it doesn't care like I don't think rogue rogue cares whether you think he's an alien or a paranoid genius with alcoholism I like. I don't think the film is more or less effective. If one explanation or the other it makes more sense like it's equally impactful. I think an equally tragic because either way he ends up being alone again at the end and depending on whether Oh you read the book or watch movie. He's either blinded by xrays or the X rays caused the context that he's wearing diffuse onto his eyes so help never be able to be the person that he once was. Never be able to be that alien again or at least feeling that he might think that he is. And the only reason why I'm harping on this whole thing of like him possibly not being an alien is because of some of those things like. There's a great shot of Mary. Lou Peeling offer fake nails. And I'm just like well. That's Kinda similar to what he has to do when he's peeling off his nails because his hands have no nails nails on them when he's in his alien form or peeling off the contacts those kind of things and then also when it comes to is we have so many themes of is is in this movie and looking and all that but especially the buck henry character with those crazy coke bottle glasses wearing and the other thing that I love love is when Candy Clark as Mary. Lou throws her wig at him and says you're an alien. You know what happened. Is they found out your visa expired. You don't know how could you your simple simple understand how we live here. We can read alien in those different ways as a as a nice touch as well but there are other hints of him definitely not being who he says he is and one of them die didn't even realize until doing the research on this was when Mary Lou takes him to church coach and they say we're going to sing this this him at which For an English friend of ours and they start singing Jerusalem which I associate associate with monty python because they were doing parodies of the song and he doesn't know the words and it's just like that's supposed to be a clue for us to know that he is not who he says he is right. Yeah I felt like there. Were other clues where he was the the Latin phrase that he didn't know asked me the question you've been wanting to ask ever since we went. Are You Lithuanian. And I come from us. Not so terrible. perodua AD Astra think about it. That's must know that. England Royal Air Force their motto Auto Ad Astra through difficulties to the stars. So Yeah I. I didn't believe he was British. I believe from outer space pretending to be British that scene I love the set. Set that glowing or but that they have and then those sound deadening cones that around. It's just one of the Best Sifi assets in what is this obsessively a non Scifi science fiction movie. That's the cover of station station the Bowie. Yes my impression or what I always thought to be true wasn't that he was supposed to do the score for this but there was some sort sort of timing issue or contract issues. We wound up not doing it but I just listen to this interview with him where he said that he he thought he was supposed to do the music but no one told him that and so he just started composing music and a couple months is into it found out like no one ever said that and so obviously he didn't do the score but he used the music he composed during during shooting some of it for station to station at some of it for low and I had no idea about that until recently there seems to be a lot of conflicting electing stories about the music and interviews. At the time he was saying that he was doing the music for it. And you would think that somebody with the film would have seen those interviews and said hey he's got the wrong idea but then there's also a report where he was paid like two hundred fifty thousand dollars to make music for the film. I forget where I read that but I just saw that while researching today and I was like so. He was paid to make music that he was asked to make like. Something doesn't really make sense there. And then in in the end they give it to the Mamas and the guy to do the thing I listen to him a Nicholas Roeg and Nicolas Roeg is like. Yeah no you weren't aren't supposed to do in like in a friendly way. And they both said that like the way that it turned out was the best possible away and so it wasn't like an angry like remember when you told me to to write this album you lacquer I feel like maybe we some of it is him giving interviews in drug field stayed and maybe you know thirty years after the fact people not remembering things clearly but either way I I actually really love the score to the film and so I'm glad that we have both music in whatever form IOS very surprised that the John Phillips Music was as good as it is and it really does seem to fit the peace and I- moreover I appreciate the other music the real songs that they bring into this especially Roy Orbison blue by I love that sequence when he is in front of all all of those. TV's and Mary Lou yelling at him and he's got blue by you on. That is probably that in the scene. where she wets herself are are probably the most memorable things from that? First Time of me watching this movie. The Roy orbison seen really stood out to me again because it was early nineties. I started the video store and suddenly had access to all these movies like Blue Velvet. Which also has a great Roy Orbison Song used in a number remember barring all these tapes and just dubbing all these scenes on the one tape that just featured cool music in them so I you know I had blue velvet? I had manifield Arison Some Alex Cox Movies but Yeah it's it's just sort of seemed like you can't go wrong putting Over Roy Orbison Song into a scene and the one thing that we we haven't really touched onto is that you can look at this whole movie as like some sort of a Christian allegory with this man who falls from the sky very Jesus e and then of course he's going to be betrayed and you could compare. It's interesting that the Mary Lou character was Eddie Joe in the book and then they made her Mary Mary Lou. So I'm like okay. Is that supposed to bring us even closer to Mary. Magdalene is that how we're supposed to look at this character and then you've got Bryce who mostly. Oh so he's just doubting Thomas he just really wants to know if Thomas Jerome Newton is who he says he is or if he something else and that's what drives him throughout the entire story is his not knowing and his suspicion that Newton is. It's not what he says he is or is something else and is interesting. There's none of this banging college coeds in the book. It's basically weekly him coming home. Finding these caps that some kids left in the hallway. Him lighting them on fire expecting them to explode would and when they do he doesn't smell gun powder and then he eventually starts to tie that in with a camera and with the film that Newton is producing goosing and then that drives him such that he actually quits working at the college where he's at and then begins working for Newton and works way all the way up to this outer space project that he's on and so yeah there's none of that dirty old man kind of stuff but it's ripped ktar it is rip torn and it's a prime rip torn. I am mostly use rip torn being older torn so seeing his prime is really quite astounding and I love watching him hosting an intergalactic Kager down here dodge. ORIG- your your bone you almost have to cast somebody with that much kind of explosive presence because otherwise otherwise how I mean as the film's antagonised. If he can't compete with David Bowie in some way like why would would you even care about the things that he's doing he needs presence and rip torn certainly had a lot of presence. I think it's also not coincidental told that we've got mentions of Christmas and here that there just seemed to be a lot of things where we're supposed to play into this whole idea of a Christian in allegory. But you can take it or leave it you know. It was just the same thing as what I was saying. As far as alien is he not Amelean is a delusion is a drug fueled whatever. Yeah if you want to read this as a Christian allegory go right ahead and knock yourself out. I don't think that ever occurred to me but I I also am a person who almost never reads things that way. I read the Narnia books as a kid and then when I was in college I took like a lot of medieval studies classes. And they're somebody said something like Oh you know of course is he. S Lois writing. All these Christian allegories I was like wait. Wait what guy just had no idea and so I guess I'm maybe the wrong person and having opinion about that yeah. I'm sure somebody much more well versed in Bible studies could probably draw more parallels and be like. Oh well the Farnsworth character character is. I don't know Peter Paul. I don't know when the Arthur character is definitely Judas because X. Y. Z.. But that's not me. I'm not able to go down that path. Unfortunately I didn't even realize that strange brew was a Shakespeare play I it took me years to figure that one out as well. So don't worry about it. See that one. I got because I really love Shakespeare. I haven't read the play before I saw the movie so it probably would what. I was ten when I saw not in I will be honest. I read the first line the witch in the wardrobe the CS Lewis Book and I never got Christian allegory. Out of it. Maybe maybe later on it gets much more but feel better okay. Yeah don't don't sweat it so I never made it to Christian allegory. No I I was just really turned on by that winter. Which while watching the cartoon my poor child how cold you look come? Sit with me here on this lineage manage and I will put my robe around you and we will talk for hats. Something oft oft tutoring there and would you like something to themm deny. I thought she was so scary to super hot to me. I don't know don't Yuk-mai Yum the Bernie Casey characters also not part of the mix. When it comes to the book? He is wholly made up for the movie. And I'm still like once last weekend into that area is just like okay. Well this kind of makes sense that we've got this. I'm guessing working for the government kind of angle going on here but I really am. Frankly I didn't need that. I was okay with when the net closes on Newton that the government was aware of this stuff all along. Especially because there's that guy at the very beginning who sees Newton coming down and coming down that hill that he traverses a- and he shows up a couple times and he just seems like to me seems like the government because he's dressed in a suit and he's there watching and it feels like okay. They're always gonNA know whatever moves we make so this guy represents the government. I didn't necessarily need a different personification right so it's not let me. They actually don't explain who that guy was right. No no those scenes are the least fulfiling. Some of that. I kind of wish had been trimmed a little. I guess I'm fine with the rip torn sex scene staying in will yeah. Let's not be crazy. I know come on and maybe guys can tell me a little bit what you take away from the gun. Play that Newton Mary Lou have. That's it's just always struck me as weird to act can only assume that it's insanity from being cooped up tested so much but why he even has the gun John. Let's give this crazy guy testing a gun. I would assume you know when he pulled it out that there wouldn't be any bullets in it because again why would he have it if it were a loaded weapon but he also was able to just kind of walk out of there that anyone stopping them so I not completely sure like what that place place was and how he was being held you know again. That's one of those things that I feel isn't explained perfectly in the film or isn't explain it all I don't think But maybe you guys got something from it that whole sequence. Where like with the gun play but also how he just kind of magically magically walked out of there? I think that is sort of a strong some strong evidence for the fact that he is just having a delusion but I also think that it's just very Nicolas Roeg I mean. He has in almost all of his movies. These very intense transgressive kind of raw sex scenes. And so it seems to me. And I definitely didn't didn't think this the first time I watched the film but like now that I've seen it a few times I've seen some of his other films. It seems kind of inevitable that he would have some sort sort of crazy hallucinatory sex scene and so I guess my takeaway is like yes. Of course this is in here. I don't really know exactly why there guns guns involved but I think it may be just to show the state of their mental deterioration delusions probably the best explanation nation for all of it. Yeah the only thing I really got out of. It was possibly a callback to those caps that I was talking about. How how the World Enterprises Corporation they make all these things but they seem to mostly make cameras photographic equipment Phil but then of all the things that they make they make caps for cap guns which is seemed like the most incongruence thing I mean when he switches everything anything to spaceflight? Then it's like okay. I guess this makes sense. Just because he's got all the money it doesn't necessarily make sense in a business sense and then of course in twenty nineteen. I'm laughing because I'm thinking of like an Elon. Musk character because I'm just like Oh. So you're GONNA DO SPACEX as well all right. Yeah that makes sense one one of the things that we haven't really talked much about. Is this whole the way that this kind of anti capitalist anti the big government thread is wound in there until I think some of it has to do with that. It doesn't even seem like it's just talking about the government but but it seems like it's also talking about America overall. I mean going back to the idea of him having this gun one of the first things that he encounters counters when he goes in and tries to sell his ring to this woman in a shop. It's not a pawnshop when she opens a drawer there's there's a gun laying there and that's one of the first of many guns that we get through this whole thing and us being Americans. We know that we love our guns and don't try to take him from us. It also kind of breaks that rule though that that you know when you see a gun in one act. It's going to play an important role in another act. I forget what that rules called but check check off. I thought Oh I know. They're saying Russia that so this movie you know. It doesn't really doesn't really work. I think the only time we see a gun being fired is that that crazy sexy. That's true of so many things in this movie where something is introduced introduced and then it's just never resolved explained. He gets twenty bucks. I rang and the next time we see him. He's counting this huge wad of one hundred dollar rebels. I'm like wait a second. What the hell happened between here? Did he have that. Many rings pulled out that that collection of rings. So I mean I'm guessing. He just came with a whole bunch of rings that he went around and sold and that's how he got all this cash but yet did seem kind of kind of quick and I guess that's one of the first hints that like like time in this film is in the pacing in the actual progress of time are not what you're expecting out of a movie in this film now that I've seen it a few times. It's one of my favorite things about the film. But if you're not used to this kind of more art house experimental experimental editing style. And you've never seen any rogue films. I can see how it would be a little bit of a challenge for somebody the first time around. Especially because it's over over two hours long right when they cut back to Buck Henry at one point and he's now an old man and Mary Lewis still the same age she is and rip torn seems to be the same H.. Is I'm just like well. Wait a second. When did he meet Mary? Lou and when did he meet Professor Brice versus when he met Farnsworth because Thou farnsworth earns worth is old. And I'm just like immediately trying to do this whole time. Line in my head and then also wondering if I'm going back and forth in time when I'm watching these things and that's also a possibility so it's a really nice touch to. This is the way that we're moving through time that Thomas Jerome Newton is moving through time untouched touched whereas all of the human characters are aging. Time is a flat circle. I really do appreciate the way that they put all that stuff together in that we don't know exactly how long he has been on earth and that we also had that interesting for lack of a better term time travel sequence once where he is riding in the back of the Limo again and he looks out and CONC- The early American settlers looking back at him writing in Lamelo and they see him and he sees them. And we have that crazy. Cornball Western type music going on and then the car just disappears. I thought there's interesting because not only do they see him but they also see telephone poles in twenty nineteen digitally remove those telephone poles. Don't say that out loud because because then we'll wind up with some awful blade runner type situation where some producer will be like yes. Let's edit a more futuristic version of the man who fell to Earth you're using lots of CGI we can make David Bowie. Look better as this alien. And then he just looks like an abomination he looks like judge banks. Could you imagine that's what they would do to that like. Sweat Lodge on rails that they have in this well and The sex scenes yet. Now I don't I don't WanNa picture this scrub this from my brain. I like Hell Nicholas. roeg thought that that would everything was looked like a dog Kennel. I thought it looked like a cake was like a a big cake with windows. Yeah and they keep going back to that. I forgot how many times that go back to his family on whatever and then the or I can't remember they call it in the book but or Mars for lack of better term. I went down the rabbit hole of. I know it's wrong and I know I shouldn't have don it but I went down the rabbit hole of reading more. Contemporary reviews of this film and one of them is reviewer. Basically basically was saying the tone was very much like even though this is the seventies film. It's still worth your time. Which one thousand nine hundred? Ninety six is my favorite year for cinema period ever and so I immediately was enraged by the first paragraph off but at the end as he's closing and he he liked the film overall but as he's closing he was like the only parts that I really had a lot of trouble. With where the parts were they. Show David Bowie's alien family back on his home planet or back. Oh what must be his home planet. Who's like it really just can't hold up to today's CGI? And I was like part of me just died. I read one where the guy was bitching about. The film that developed developed itself in the can and he was just like well polaroid's were invented in nineteen forty six so this isn't really that spectacular technology. No I read that too. It was like really that guy was so fucking snotty. I could not stay in that review. I know. Better than to read reviews news of Sixties or seventies films of Art House films especially at exploitation films. But sometimes it's like I just can't help myself. I'm like possessed by some spirit. I wanted to just mention before I forget about it. The the alienness of Newton again the way that he almost like astro projects projects to the bryce character when braces out fishing and he shows up and he's just like hey there's nothing to worry about and disappears and then when he meets him the next day it's supposed has to be for the first time I kind of appreciate that one as well that Bryce has this vision and I guess maybe that maybe that takes me back to the whole Christian allegory. Gory thing maybe that's another thing. That one of the disciples had a vision of Jesus before he met him. So why do you persecute me. I am Jesus whom you persecute tomorrow. Dr Bryce then NBA suspicious but that was a nice touch that it's also strange that bryce lives on one side of the lake and Newton lives on the other side of the likes. So they're like constantly could be looking at each other and never actually talking. Yes I kind of wondered if that was imagined or if that was real I mean David Lynch territory there. This film must've been an influence on him. I mean I know that rogue had to have been in general. Just it's like based on the editing style but it does seem very like I think if you watched men fell to Earth and then you watch the most recent season season of twin peaks. You see a lot of weird similarities. Do they see that candy. Clark was in twenty six. Oh yes and again Roy orbison well yeah and then Phillip Jeffries who turns into a giant teapot. He also does not talk about Judy in this movie. Either it's a crime against cinema in if I were not gonNA talk about Judy at all. I feel like I'm picking on this movie a lot but I have to say that I still find it infinitely fascinating and I really really enjoy pulling this movie apart and putting it back together because there are so many different ways that you can read it and it is sensual no and I love the audio mix. I love the way that this looks. I really like a lot of the performances. I mean I was watching the scene earlier with the when he is about to take off in the gym level is there and the you've got the different broadcasts going on and either ear which is nice and watching this movie with headphones on on his surreal treat. Yeah this is something I've always really wanted to see in a theater and hopefully that will happen one day but that is probably true of all of his films that they're just not meant to be watched on television. I mean like walkabout performance. It's like they're supposed to be in your face and in your ears. I guess as as it were I've seen walkabout on the screen and that was amazing. I would I'd love to see Don't look now on the big screen because you really WanNa see a giant version of Donald Sutherland's ass exactly. I mean me to more than when I got to see it in a national Lampoon's animal house because frankly I haven't seen don't look now yet and I would love to see but just kind of waiting for it on the big screen. Yeah you should. You should wait. Have you seen performance. I have but only on an old vhs tape performance as one of those things that I think because of the Weird Warner brothers rights issues sort of like with the devils. I don't think it has like it's ever GonNa. You're not anytime soon. Going to get some kind of like Torrington theater release or thirty thirty five released but I I would really love if it did will. There are so many different avenues that you can take when you talk about this movie and I know that we're kind of all over the map but it feels inappropriate for this film to not necessarily talk about linear way and that sort of what I was thinking earlier today is that I feel like with the projection booths. You tend to be really good at sort of working through a film in particular like logical order and this is one of those movies where you really can't do that but I think that would also be true if you talked about walkabout or performance and to a different extent. Don't look now it just. I think that's just his style as a filmmaker. What you were saying about how it's rewarding because there are so many different ways to talk about it or think about it? It makes it difficult to do a critical analysis because like there's no only a to Z discussion. It's just sort of all over the place as movie. I don't find it any coincidence. That the editor of this movie also worked on. Don't look now which was another wrote but also worked on images because I feel like they're rogues work and Altman's work at least in images feel feel like they were kind of sharing the same error. Oh definitely three women as well. Oh Wow yeah yeah. I wonder if if he worked on that too because the there are a lot of similarities like my brain always wants to group things by team and that would be a really intense hence five or six movie marathon. You probably would would need a drink at at the end of that during it graeme Clifford also just Since we're talking about this also directed an episode of Twin Peaks. So there you go bringing it all together episode. Oh two point five so sometime in that weird second season so I'm not sure if that was before they talked about who actually killed Laura or if that was Maybe be more of a James on his road trip. Don't say that I james was in town recently at. I couldn't bring myself to go now. James is so cool. He's always been cool. He never had David Bowie on the other hand always always cool. Yeah always always eternally even when he's dancing in the street even when he's in just a Gigolo which like I heard someone talk about films like like labyrinths and men fell to Earth and their their argument was like these are only good. It was a stupid David argument but it was. These are only good films because they have somebody as charismatic. David Bowie clearly. You haven't seen just a Gigolo which he David Bowie could definitely not save. He's still cool. But you're also like I was really hoping that you meant that he was in the David Lee Roth music video for Justice Tikolo he stars in it actually. Oh Wow it's him with the ship's captain hat on. It's not really David Lee Roth. Holy cow is an actor and a half wow. He learned how to do split cakes gesture that video there are certain movies and certain musicals and certain works of art that I'd like to go back to time and again even though the end in tragedy and this is another one of those. This is like Jesus Christ superstar or Vida. I know that things are going to go bad at a certain point in this movie. It always happens and I always hope it doesn't happen but it still happens nevertheless because as lonely as Thomas Jaren Newton is at the beginning. He's going to be worse than that at the end of it. It's so hard to watch. It's almost like it's like vampire movies. Where everybody they know grows old and dies but they stay the same age in here? He is at the end of the movie. Still young and good looking but you know completely smashed and everybody that he's known throughout the movie. Is You know they're they're elderly at this point after we're he passed after David Bowie passed away. I wish I was very upset about a normally. I don't like get that worked up about celebrity thirty deaths but I- unwisely that day did a double feature of the man who fell to Earth in the hunger. There's a lot of crying all right. Let me tell you. The hookers. Almost good. Follow it because he goes from not aging at all to all of a sudden over aging in that one but they have a lot lot of very similar themes about isolation and loneliness in sort of trying to trying to figure out what being human means in trying to make connections and to me even more than the ending. That's what's so tragic about the man who fell to Earth is. He's sort of trying through Mary. Lou's character is sort of trying to figure out what it means to be human and he just winds up with all these horrible vices vices. He it seems like he doesn't get any of the positive experiences. Just awful ones. We're going to take a break break. Play a series of interviews. First up you'll hear the conclusion with our interview with candy. Clark you can hear the first part of that over on our more American graffiti episode after that you'll hear from author author Sam Omlund and last but not least you'll hear from author Susan COMPO and we'll be back with all of those right after this brief messages. Did you know you can get more value from your Medicare coverage. Choose optima Medicare HMO and get medical and prescription drug coverage plus and he adds benefits like dental vision and allowance for over the counter products with plans starting at just your dollars per month. The Medicare annual enrollment period carried ends on December seventh. So visit US online today. Learn more at OPTIMA health dot com slash Medicare. I'm Chris Cooling from Forgotten Gotten TV. And you're listening to the projection booth the ultimate movie podcast you like classic movies how about classic. TV OVER IT forgotten TV. I've I have covered everything from obscure Saturday morning. TV too short live shows like other world. The Phoenix the highway. Man and cliffhangers. You can find the show over it for Gotten DOT TV or at all the usual podcast places. I hope you'll join me soon at forgotten TV. Hey do you like movies movies. Of course you do. Your listened to Mike White's phenomenal podcast the projection booth. I'm here however to tell you about another movie loving podcast shaming list picture. Show my name is Michael Vice and the show was created by myself. and my good buddy filmmaking. Nick Richards Twenty six years away for him and I had to stay connected and to keep movies in our lives premise. Thomas is simple. Each of US composed a list of shame filled with movies. We've I've missed. had no interest in or just feel the scene. We've covered a wide range of films on Heather's The godfather the exorcist your the hunter from the future Phantom tollbooth ace. Salou Amazing Vinegar Syndrome. Titles and some that are not so good plus our massive rocky episode that features in new interview with Lloyd. 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The projection booths brings you new show possibly even to focusing on all genres of cinema. If you've sat through the seven hour Conan episode the Six Hour Star Wars also'd or even the our Lam's superb Manam sewed you know that Mike and his co host put forth a lot of work and range of researching the movies tracking down the interview subjects and putting together one of the best podcast on the Internet. Now I'm asking you if you can repay all that hard work by giving back to the projection. The show has a patron fund razer at Patriot that spe-. At All E. O. N. dot com forward slash projection booth. You can mm donate as little as a dollar a month. That's twelve dollars a year. At least fifty great shows and to terrible ones that surprise to me tickets how is the projection booths would fit once again that's Patriot dot com slash projection booth donate day. It's the bright thing to do. Well how did you get cast in the man who felt earth. Let's say I was introduced introduced nick road by living off and then I hit it off like instantly. One day I was with him and at the Beverly Hills Hotel And he had a meeting with Producer type and he said wait out here. And here's the script might want you to read it. You can read this while I'm in the meeting and So I thought okay so I was reading it with nothing in mind except just to read it. I I read the script Nixon the meeting for our two. I'm reading the script and it was really great. I loved it and when he comes out he said well what did you think I said. Oh it's fantastic. You need to do this movie us as great and he said. Do you want the part art. I'm like yes And then that was before anyone was cast that before there was any money or you know any production the money any production office. Nothing and I was just hired just then in there and it was so I got to watch the whole process process of this thing getting off the ground and The cast being hired. And you know wonderful behind the scenes stuff. Have you ever had that experience before. The first one higher for a project Now I don't think so. That was just a lucky lucky. Lucky break I got to watch everything as it unfolds that you know and it unfolded fairly quickly and it was the first time on all British Crew to Nick Rob you know as an established director in England so he had his people you know that he wanted to work with and they brought the a home All of his people n from England so it was all British crew now is great. Do ever worked with that much makeup before. Because I know that you go through a pretty amazing transformation and the film they call it a appliances and they do them so much. You know. They're so much more realistic today. Like you know inanity Murphy plays on a his character. You can't even tell and everything seems to move you've so well you know the rubber and the latex but I had never worked with that many appliances you know the neck the cheeks the hands and all the Glynn and it would just I. I spent a couple of weeks in that make up and I tallied up my out hours every redel right down my hours of just spending time in the chair and The turtle was ninety six and a half hours. I've just been glued and and hovered over and made up and and once you've got that make up on. They tell you you I try not to use your mouth. You know much because it was start cracking around the lips and the cheeks and all of that and so so I would tell her when you know. Don't marry laugh. Don't laugh and I had to drink through a straw. You know it was. It was a challenge. It was really fun and I thought that You know I came across it really. Did you know the aging aging and that film was we had to keep track of time because David boies character never aged and so every senior like how many years have passed. You know so you would kinda know anti Yeah it was very complicated but it was Much Fun and in David and I had a lot of dialogue and by then I'd gone to acting classes so I know a little better of how to you know. Make a character and all that but David Bowie was wonderful to work with and he was a hard worker he liked to rehearse. And we'd be working on one seeing you know. Oh shooting wants him back then you know at lighting and all that was it was real film so It took a long time to light and set up up and they've had to put down Dolly tracks and stuff like that which would be very time consuming now with the steady cam and and with digital cameras as is not as much down time as it used to be but When we were doing a scene like Ping simpons thing? You know we would be doing that but on our brakes which were many and they had to rely and re locate all the lining. We'd these you know sitting on the floor. Run in the next scene the lines for the next thing so we were always like one scene ahead getting it perfectly memorized so You know came out smooth and like real conversation but I thought David who was so beautiful at that you know as skin is translucent and his hair was I mean it was just gorgeous person and I was really lucky that I had never seen him in concert. So I wasn't impr- you know I was. He was just another actor but after the movie was over shot a got invited to one of his concerts became like a groupie. Oh my God you know. I was a totally different scene. And I was so happy that I hadn't hadn't had been influenced by you. Know his being on stage because then it went up. I've been a little more. I Dunno referential or something. Take me a little more good guy but I was glad I never been to concerts until after in that case. It's like the shoes a little bit on the other foot because by this time you're the experienced sector and this is one of his first roles. Well he had other roles but He was really into the character he loved the script and he was very respectful of the script. And I mean we didn't really we. You didn't change any dialogue. It was as written by Paul Mars Burke and the the dialogue was so beautifully written and the responses in the back and forth. That you did not you. You did not want to change anything because it was perfect and my and mine and I think David's David. David is a big reader to and so am I so we knew we know good riding when we read it when you're jumping back and forth in time so much at least in the the the movie as I watch it. Were you shooting that in order you also shooting that out of order I think The scenes were determined by the location nation. You know so all the things that were done at that kind of Japanese the house. We're all done at once and you know it's all all determined by the locations. Is it true that you're also the alien woman as well I am I asked. It's a play the life on the planet and also I played David Bowie thing. I heard about that. How did that happen? At the time. He wouldn't didn't fly. He was very superstitious about flying and So there was a scene where he's coming out of his characters coming out of the world enterprises Office building and Since he wouldn't fly volunteered. I'll go to New York and but So that's me when his costume and I have on a Little Red Wig and I'm walking out of the office building and into a Limo And I had a little barricade setup but there wasn't a lot of people watching us but the few that were watching. They're saying there's David Bowie. There's there's David Bowie and I'm like yes. I fooled him. But you know our job. Lines were not alike so I and that scene I have my hand ended up to my job my chant as I'm walking tasks 'cause I knew you know he has a man John Line and I don't itself so I just try to cover up that make up for being the alien. I mean that was before they had perfected contact. Lenses and stuff severely hurt. No well. I'M A I've been wearing contacts since the sixties hard lenses to this day so it was a no no big deal although we did kind of have a little bit of a crises and We couldn't see through them because they were painted. But some sort of maybe oil base taint Into those cats so there was no pupil hole or anything and then they put over that some of the urethane or Vera. Thing to feel it and So you could not see through them so you were really working blind and you had to be guided by the director. Okay a move this way turn that way go straight go straight okay. Slow down you know and So you see us. We're coming down a hill of sand and the customer had put us in these plexiglass shoes with a high Soul may not clear plastic plexiglas. And we had those on to make us look like I. I guess she wanted us to look like we were floating down the hill which is a great effect but they were like skis. We couldn't wear so we had to wind up walking barefoot but yeah We tried those David Hammer likes Liden and like you know it was like impossible but we had these tanks on our backs with a pink water than the tanks hoses were springing lakes. And we're out in the white sands of Alamogordo and You know it was the costumes. Were this real thin thin Dan Stretchy fabric that was pretty much see through although it. You don't see much on film but when you're standing there and in the thing is getting wet you know and nobody cared you know. They'd seen US naked before so I there's like more of the same but yeah it was Really Yeah I like playing the wife on the planet and you know. His help never arrived. Jason you know we die out there me and the kids and we had a little hologram. That was one of the first. holograms that It is in a film you know you really couldn't see it but you kind of see and I'm holding up this plastic thing that's called Hologram and back then that was real cutting edge edge but As it was amazing adventure and we were in New Mexico for a couple of months fabulous place. How did took it into that head space of that complete breakdown after you see him as the alien that day where where I I'm going Tommy Tommy? You know. I'm like waiting in bed and I'm painting my nails anyway. And we're knocking on the door. And I've Kinda goofing around and going Tommy can you hear me. You know. Just been stupid between takes that day he got at six. David got sick so when they opened the door all. That was there with the camera and cameraman David. Bowie was not there. I just had to pretend kindy was there and I had to pretend that I'm seeing my boyfriend. Has He really is for the first time. And I was in an Improv class and There was a this was an idea that I stole from another actor. That was in an Improv class. Where the actor actor got scared and for a split second? His feet were on the wall. He was suspended and then if he came down. I thought that looks neat. So when I the the character Newton for the first time as he really is I thought I will see him and throw myself back and behind me was a wall and a bookcase and I would just be projected back. You know like just by force fear and I just would throw myself back over and over again and then So I was really bruised up the backs of my arms and my legs but it was effective and then I was the characters in the script runs into the bathroom and throws up. That's how it was written but I drank. There's this thing called EPA CAC which is a a medicine to make you throw up if you've been poisoned or something so I drank this if attack and we're waiting around for it to take us back because I really wanted to throw up the first person that throw up on screen for real and It didn't work drink the whole bottle. Nothing so well well you know I had no nothing from it and anyway so we regrouped and so I had this image of Mary Lou. You like when you touch a frog toad. How a toad will you pick him up and he just peas all over your hands and so I had? There's image of Mary Lou. She gets touched by her boyfriend. who like totally different? That causes her to be like the frog. You know all over the place so that was a i. I don't think anyone's ever done that but that wasn't real. That was done with two being and all of that I couldn't and do that on command That was all living a little bulb and you know so colored water put Mary. Lou is like recoiling wailing. This thing comes out of the bathroom and touches her face and she's just like you know that scene in particular just hours florist may just how real you make that. I just have to imagine it really hard. And what what what would you do is after years of being with someone they they take off all their stuff and they're they are Yeah ask you'RE GONNA are. You GonNa Throw Up or pee your pants one. What are you GONNA do? Run Run for the hills or try to go up rate somehow. It's your wife you know so. Anyway Mary allude goes into the bedroom. And there's Newton and you know he's just looked like a kind of big little salamander she tries her best. But it's too revolting stuff. Gets all over my hands like and then the next time you see Marilu issues in the kitchen and it's all this warped vision in like a fish. Islands his down on the floor in the kitchen going in crying and go and why why why put a little strain on the relationship chip. Suddenly you kind of change your mind about your your husband or your wife or your boyfriend boyfriend now It's a lot to handle a lot and so I read. That David Bowie was on a skateboard for you to pull him. But I always was curious how you pulled off picking him up and carrying him. I don't imagine that was you actually carrying him. I thought that's what happened and it might have happened in some of the things but my brothers said there was a list on the camera camera and he was on the list. But I do remember US capable when I pulled him out of the elevator. He's Kinda just easy to a slide. You see pull him out of the alligators L. Elevator and he just kinda glides and he had he was balanced on a skateboard at that point. So you know and then Mary Lou real heavy let me pick him up so you know the cameras right there. Aaron David I the my task was to keep his his head and his legs in the frame keep him bowed up so and he was his thing. He's passed out so you know I really had to work with an actor that's supposed to be passed out and not helping so but required a lot of arm strength and plus getting them down the hall and I had something between my legs and it was you know I had to get him into the bed and and I kept my shins kept hitting the bed frame and so you you know but you can't. You're getting hurt but you can't react to that you just kind of have to the thin it out and just do do what you're supposed to do and look at the damage later but yeah it was. It was fun house the Group to work with as a director well back then directors were onset. Now they're an on in another room looking at a monitor which is not as much fun but back then he was right just right out of frame name and you know he was very specific and had a lot of instruction and great ideas. Who was like a coach just you know and and he just got us through it and you know it was his vision and we just kind of portrayed his vision you know he was really really good with with Direction huge fantastic and it really helped fund your coaches right there just out of frame. You know it's just inches away and you can kind of see why you're doing the scene. You can still have peripheral vision so you can still see him. You know his excitement or are you know a body language which is kind of helping you along to you. Know like like like a Boxing coach you know you'll see if you see a boxing coach and as boxers in the ring you'll see their their body language is like they're fighting to you know so the director is is fighting to get you through the scene because it's film and if you stop or halt or go forget your lines then as you have to start completely Over and so as expensive. Now it's all digital so you can pick up a scene. You know you foul up and just start where you left off basically basically. That's not the same. I don't share too many scenes with him but how has returned to work with easy as he was quite the Hansel Hansel when we did scenes like once sing together where the restaurant is easy as Pie Wonderful Book Henry does amazing in glasses and I tried those on. I you know I said. Let me see what these are like. You couldn't see it was like you're wearing to magna fires on on your. You couldn't see to walk you couldn't and if you put your hand down like you're sitting on the Sofa and you reach for the arm of the SOFA. It was so distorted. You would think that the arm was like lower or higher than then. You thought so you're just kind of feeling around because everything was totally distorted boarded and he managed to get through it even though he could not see a thing. There was just like wearing to like magnifying. Glasses is on your eyes. Try walking around that that. Yeah we overcame. Did you end up there premier for that did you go to that. There was one in England. I went for that one. Yes well I was supposed to go on a two week tour to promote the film and it was put out by this. This company called Cinema Five. A man named Dan Rogov on that. And that was a real art house disturbing company and they took pride and putting out director's cuts. You know the total director's vision and it was kind of like I can't think of the name of the company Anthony that Did Real classy until the guy got. Oh like Miramax Yeah. It was like near Mac but smaller and like Miramax when it started out with do art art style and you know real unique not not your action hero stuff but real solid anyway. Cinema five was like that and So Nick was very thrilled. He'd spent like a year editing being the film and they had a premier in England and it was very successful and I went over there for that and then it was time for it to open in the US. And I was to go on a two week tour. Promotional tour which I like doing promoting is not hard for me. I enjoy it and I asked Don Ruge Office. I can see the film. Just refresh myself so I can know what I'm talking about. You know it'd been awhile mile and so they're so sure we're in a big old theater and I and I like there are a couple of other people there but big movie house and I'm watching this fill and it was had been chopped to ribbons and I without EPA CAC. I almost threw up in the theater. I was so upset. And they had reduced the the film from two hours than twenty three minutes to to our flat movie and I guess they're theory was that I thought it was going to like clean up and two hours as as long enough to get the next crowded. Well that really backfired. So I'm watching this mess of a film and it turned out I discovered ever that they had hired a guy who edits commercials to edit the film and he had just handed the bit. It took him a week. To edit edit what Nicaragua and Graeme Clifford took a year to shoot to edit. So he just did it willy. Nilly it was just like scenes scenes. were out of out of order from Nick Growth Cut. They were edited. It was just like what the heck has happened. You know. You've lost a fifth of the film. One fifth is gone so I had the bad. I had to call Nick and say well you know it's all been chopped up and ruined and believe I think he was. I don't know how he reacted but he did not sound happy and I was to go on the road with this and promote this and they wanted me to lie and say that's how that's the director's cut and so ah I remember my first appointment. They put me up at a really Nice Hotel and I remember it was. The village voice was my first. You Know Oh appointment and I'm supposed to be discussing this film and I'm in my sweet and I remember they. They had their PR guy sitting there. Listening to everything I'm saying and I'm like trying to sell this film film and you know be real positive about it but I was just so nervous and so upset and I'm lying I'm really you know and I'm lying for the wrong. The people I don't know these people I don't know you know cinema five. I know nick grow you know and I just at one point the the Pr Guy goes to the bathroom. And then I just quickly said to the village voice people. I'm lying it's terrible. They've cut it to this. You know I was like yeah. I spill the beans and then the PR guy comes back out. And he's like so you know and then I pick up on the story so yeah. David boy was Leonard me. I'm like but I felt like a prisoner of war. You know in the warden in a just left and I'm like trying to get help anyway. Call my manager Pat McLean. I said Pat. You know. Here's what's happened. I can't. I can't can't do this. I can't lie and say this is how the film is. She said. Check out get on a plane. Come on and I just bailed eld and years later that was the only company. put it out and you know VHS and it was just this horrible. And I'd get so many any bad people like what's going on. You know it just makes no sense terrible movie and you know. It's getting horrible horrible reviews by Rex Reed and and this other guy named John Simon they said Richard said. We're all running around in fright wigs and John. Simon who is a you know a high end review or a films you know slaughtered it and then everyone did. Everyone did of course. Didn't make two pennies to rub together. You know for cinema five but years later I was living in New Jersey and I read that Don Rogov was no longer with the company so I thought maybe I'll give them a call and I call the company company and I said Hi. My Name is candy. Clark and I I said you know I am constantly being asked about this movie which wasn't true but I said that and I said you know you ought to bring out the uncut version. I think you guys can make a lot of money. Just use the same poster. Strap strap a banner across it saying director's cut uncut version. I guarantee you're GONNA make a lot of money. I said if you want me to go out and promote it and sell let. I said that's easy for me to do. I'd love to do it so hayes that you know the man. I spoke to really liked the idea India and I and so a couple of weeks later. I Say I'M GONNA follow up on that and see how it's going and I spoke to the same man and he said well bad news. I'm like like what and he said are Negative as all the negative was the dopey auto commercial editor cut the negatives and so instead of printing the negative so there's two copies Nah they just chop up the original. I'm like well I said well I know where it is. I said call these people British lion there in England and they'll help you out and they did and to this day. The horrible cut version is totally gone. And all you see is the uncut the director's cut and you know it's as it took a while but mission accomplished yeah And I'm so glad 'cause I hated so much that chopped up version. Oh Yeah you lost a fifth of the movie plus it was put all in Other orders and it's like you were in one that I love that I don't know no I don't think you like it as much. which was your next film that was released which was citizen spanned business ban? Yes I did that with you. Know they were at that time you know Two way radios. And you know breaker breaker and all of that stuff was going on on and I guess I thought they you know the writer. I think it was Marshall Brickman. If I remember correctly anyway he was Jonathan. Demme and Freddie Sills was the producer and he had a script that I really wanted to do which was more of a character study called a looking for Mr Good Bar Which Diane Keaton eventually got but my motivation for doing citizens band was hoping to get looking for Mr Good Bar and You know of course that didn't happen but You know citizen band I haven't seen it in years ears. I was with Paula. Matt you know I don't know I just didn't care if I really wanted looking for Mr good bar. I thought that was better writing writing and I liked the book and everything so anyway. We got it into the White House though you did. Yeah Jimmy Carter along the way Jimmy Carter was running for president and they had a Like a meet and greet Jimmy Carter at the Beverly Wilshire Your Hotel so I I went and while I was there I met this his poster whose name was packed Cadel and I said you know Jimmy Carter is GonNa win and I said I'd like an autograph photo of him. 'cause he's GonNa win you know you just have a hunch and you just say it out loud and Pat Cadel and I stayed in contact and he got me an autographed picture. Jimmy Carter and sure enough. He won so patent cadel and I had you know we talk here and there and I said Pat thank. You can get this film into the White House because they had a screening room there and he said Yeah I can try and next enough me and Freddie fills are in Washington. DC and we're in the screening room The White House and Jimmy Carter didn't serve wine. You only serve water. It was a teetotaler unlike his brother and It was folding chairs and a screen like a projection screen. That was the screening room at the time and I remember the lights. We're all sitting on these folding chairs and the lights go down and Oh right before the lights go down little. Amy Comes in and she's sitting on the first row and Ross Win and lights go down the movie starts and amy has a flashlight and she sitting on the first row and she has this briefcase case open and she the whole movie she is looking into this briefcase. I don't know if she had a hamster I don't know if she was doing her homework. I have I've no idea but it was such a distraction and nobody said the little amy. Hey Amy you know. Shut the briefcase. We're trying to watch a movie. We saw the homeland was spent with those light in the first row and this flashlight anyway it was a real pleasure and it was a real treat and and went out after the movie Me Pat Cadel Hamilton Jordan. Jody Powell went bar hopping and I just remember. They took us. Pat showed me at one of the press bars where the press drink and socialize and I guess talk about you know the events of the day I swear to God the whole town. That whole bar was smashed. I mean moving and drunk and I and then we went to a nightclub and everyone there was drunk like you never saw. Oh not even when I grew up in Texas that some of the songs and I'm thinking God. These people are running the country Jesus but it was so noticeable that that the press corps everyone was just drunk whether they are now. I don't know but that was my first impression of Washington has four just smashed. Anyway we got it in the White House citizens band I did. I read that you are the voice of Stella Star in Star Crash. That is a total rumor. I I've never even seen seen that movie. I've never been hired to reduce someone's boys ever. I don't know where that came from but it's on the Internet. Well it's gotTa that'd be true then yes but I you know I will deny it forever. I don't know her. I never did it her voice. I never adopter ever. What was it like for you working with David Lynch? When you're on twin peaks that was quite the treat I I just remember. I had that character and it was. I played this Y. Who's kind of at the end of a rope with her husband? My husband's the sheriff. And I just I have a litany of complaints about mold and water overflowing dog shit everywhere and and how how you know cars. Don't work and you know I just come in. And just give him a big Riemann out and so we were on in in Washington state anyway. So I'm all in costume and I come barreling into that room and the door slams you now I just fling the door open and I les into Guy Who's playing my husband and I do all the dialogue and then I look over and this was just a rehearsal and I look over. And there's it was a real small offense and David Lynch sitting in the corner with a with with a megaphone like a red and white oh battery operated megaphone as only like three feet away way. I started laughing so hard. I'd never seen that in my life. I was like who does that Yeah it was like a twelve by ten room tiny with a megaphone action. You know like what what the heck is funny. So that was a good quirky little thing that I discovered about David Lynch and then I got used you know. Oh well then we did another thing and at that point you know the novelty has worn off and yeah hey says action and cut through the megaphone but yeah a little quirk that I like. What are you working on these days? criminal minds and. Let's see what am my working on. Nothing at the time I work in my garden. I do a lot of hot. Rod Shows Personal appearances at hot rod shows. And you just never know with acting you know when something will come up you know but meanwhile you know you just leave your life you've been doing that The one character on criminal minds for a Lotta years I know was A lot of fun and unfortunately it's over the the As you know it's its its final years. And I'm so bummed because I really wanted to come back have more conflict with my daughter who's just doesn't understand me resentful eventful. Figure it out if only she was just calm down and just let live and let live a little bit. You Know God. That was really a lot of fun. Really appreciated those people bringing back. We'll Miss Clark. Thank you so much for your time. This has been a real pleasure talking with you. Thank thank you I really appreciate you calling and I hope it works out and Org I'm I'm very curious how you came to write about the man who fell to Earth. was that the canal connection. Yes the book was actually more years in the making than you might realize when Rebecca and I were working on the the Donald cammell biography men. My was went to California a foreign to meet David at one point David Camel and we were talking about I actually. I was interested in a hearing about his career and he made it off in common about the man who failed earth or maybe I asked him about it because I remember his name being on it a- and he made it off comment you ought to write about it and so that was many years ago and there was a a book series out Dan Dan Call Culpa Griffey's on cult films so I'd actually contacted the editors of that and ask. They would be interested in they were. They said were several years behind. You know. We'll get to it when we can get to it. And so I I didn't really pursue it and I remember that at one point. David wrote me an email and ask me. How's that going? I said well I really haven't started it because I haven't been contacted. By the editors I don't think they blew me off or anything I think it was just a backlogged and they had all kinds of titles coming out so I did. I really didn't think about it much. And then what happened with with the man who fell to Earth was that I saw that that that Arrow aero video the with whom I worked on the Donald Cammell film in a wider the eye to provide the audio commentary was doing a book series so I approached Francesco seamy Oni at Arrow and said. Well I bought title might be interested in and so he wrote back mask me about it gave me you know broad ideas. Here's what we're looking for lengths and all of that stuff so that's when I came back and I said well I'd love to do if if you if you're interested. I love to do the man who fell earth and so that's how that all came about so it was a long just station period and went in it knock. I said I'm not gonNA say it went from one publishing another was just. I didn't seem to be going anywhere. That is the previous idea. And I thought I'd love David I love to write this book. David has a lot of information formation about the production and so that's how I approached Fran at Arrow books and said are you asking. Are you interested. And he said yes. And that's what that started. I'm curious how you decided. What aspects to cover? Because I noticed that you cover a lot of that production was at because David was such a wealth information. He was a wealth of information and he had met Walter Davis and had long discussions with him about the of novel He was there during the entire production. And as you know from reading the book it was David who really started the project act. Who wanted to make the movie in the first place? So yes I mean that's There was a lot I felt that. That Data David had a lot to offer. The people didn't know about right a lot of information that people didn't know about it's a strange he's listed as what miscellaneous crew. Yeah there's a little I'm fine little fine little credit. You know tightening in a line in the opening credits. You know thanking the the the participation in assistance of David Campbell and that was all contractual because when the thing started and I talk about this in the book when the the whole man who who beller project started David was actually going to be indeed the producer and when neck road joined Due to a number of complicated negotiations nations that I go in to in the book David was essentially told. You can't produce it. It has to be it's going to be you know British British British lion and You know subsequently he was reduced to this miniscule little role although he says that actually actually I can. I contributed a lot to that film Little bits and pieces throughout so but yeah I mean it's one of those film business things right in terms of how these contracts are signed in negotiating and that. So that's how he was relegated to that little miniscule opening you know credit were you fan of the movie before he started writing about it. I was when I first saw it and I thought it was intriguing and mysterious. It was unusual and I actually one of my courses many years ago I actually taught both the novel in home and I went through a period where I didn't think about it very much and Intel again. It sort of came back when David and I started talking about it all that came back in my interest in it. Yeah I think being away from it Mike Mike For A for a few years Allowed me to approach in a in a way a new way right what I tried to do when I wrote the book was just to approach it as if I knew nothing about it. Yes I did of course but I mean I was trying to you know avoid neglect neglect everything that I had originally thought my original perceptions on seeing it in the theater and just to try to write about it without any preconceptions views about what I wanted to do with it. So that's how that came about so yeah that's a good question. I I do feel that I left. I left it for a while. I didn't watch the film for a long time. I haven't seen it for years and and I felt that was good. I felt that that that was a good thing. Because it allowed me to renew my relationship to it putting that aside a little bit as far as trying to forget the movie when you're looking at it how was it comparing what you are seeing at your age now versus when it first came out at film was forty three years ago now so when I wrote this I was you know it was forty one years earlier. Era The book of his forty one years earlier and so I was that much younger longer. It's changed it changed For me that's not unusual but it there were things is that I felt interested me more about things that interested me lasse. So did I change my. Did I change my attitude towards the film yeah. I don't know if that comes through in the book or not but yeah it was a reevaluation anyway. Sh into the films for me and I wanted to be that way. I wanted to try to ride about it as if I were re evaluating it and I also watched it with Rebecca who had never. We're seeing it in and that was fun for me. Because she was an you know. We wrote the camel book together biography together and so she had never seen it so so it was interesting to just watch it with someone who literally was screening the film for the first time. What was her takeaways? Because it's such a rich tapestry. Yeah I think that she was very engaged in the film for but say two thirds towards the way and then the last third. I think that her interest began to wane. I think it became a little more disjointed the the lot of ellipses gaps and in the narrative and we attended disorder. And I wrote about that in the book not prompted by her comment but I felt that there was a kind of deliberate alien nation happening Uh in our on our relationship with Thomas Jerome Newton and that Alienated Factor Good Dardanelle Alien Nation nations. They used to call it and so I think that she experienced that the because towards the end of the film that lasts third. Yeah her her her their relationship her perception of the film change and that was very instructive for me to have someone who knew of the film. I mean it's it's at least it's titled It is famous but who had never seen so that helped me rethink a lot of things. What were some of the most surprising things that you found out when you're doing your investigation? The extent to which David Campbell's original idea conception of the film was so drastically different from Paul Maier's Berg the screenwriter and Nick Rowe because it was David who brought in Paul Maier's Berg he knew him and he he Paul was according to David was enthusiastic about it and they had kind the similar wavelength. They were thinking about the film in a very what the film might be. The adaptation might be a very similar way that began to change. As soon as Nick Road road came on board and so the direction of the film the conception of the film alter and so you can see a little bit perhaps of the original idea now and then but the fact that it became a different film than it was originally conceived to be was the biggest revelation for me. David camel approached in Walter. Walter Travis with the idea that it would be a kind of grand mystery that we wouldn't know much about up. Thomas Jerome Newton that he would remain a mystery mysterious. Is He truly a Martian is he. The insane is he a mad genius and he wanted in that kind of tradition. A kind of mystery of a great man who you may be mad the fact that he claims that he's an alien miss sort of preposterous and so on. So I think that the the for instance I can give you an example. One of the biggest differences between original conception in the in the realized film are the scenes shot. I'm using Mars because I think that's the only logical place he comes from okay And I talk about that in the book. And although tavist doesn't say Mars but it clearly the all the textual evidence is book. He's he's he's referring these using Mars. Is that David in David's mine. There should be no scenes. No nothing at all in the movie revealing Thomas Drome on his home planet so we have those scenes where we see this desert. Ride this this this planet. That's now a desert and we see Newton with his family family and his children and that was a departure that was a huge change from their original conception. Because in David's mind there should never be it. All it should always have remains a mystery that of a puzzle whether Newton was it was crazy. you know a crackpot whatever or or somehow just human. Who has this delusion something like that that? So those things in his mind never existed. They never would've been part of the film and I don't know you take bets. It's a something thing I thought about. What would that be if you remove all of that right? Remove all of those scenes. Just cut them out just if it were possible to take the existing movie movie right and go through and just chop those pieces out of Newton on his home planet and see how it plight you know and so. That's that's one of the things that I thought was intriguing in one of the things that was altered about the film now in defense. Of course I that in the novel Newton does talk about his planner and He he does talk about home and it's had I mean the monopoly Merton the novel emerged out of the fifties that great fear of nuclear war and so there has been a nuclear war war nuclear devastation on Newton's home planet. So you know in defense that materials there but the way that David pitched two tablets was that he would do it as a kind of grand mystery story. So it's not that at all as it. I mean it's nothing to do about Newton's Hi de entity at all I mean we just allow the fact you know. It's a given that he's an alien. I'm really glad that you went into the backstory of who Walter Tavist says in a little bit more about his life into the novel was famous. The movie was famous and I I wanted people to know more about who was in. How how the book in some respect reflected aspects of his own life? I've found as as you know from from the book I found that Great Book A kind of biography written by his Jamie Tabas who was his first wife. WHO talks about how? What a sickly child he was I elements of that are in Thomas Newton? How tall and thin gangly? He was He felt he felt awkward. You Know He. He was named by his as he when he was a schoolteacher. Sure when he was in English teacher you know students called him. Make Abbad Crane That was invaluable and an. I felt that no-one on wall understanding there was a novel out. There really didn't know much about its author in how the author's own biography impacted what that novel became. You know is and I. I really thought that was important. Aspect of the book because no one had Britain about that before. I mean everybody knew Waller Texas. Everybody knew he'd written other books he was famous for the Hustler ride and which became the the the highly regarded film With Paul Newman Releasing sixty one people knew that aspect of tavist study. Was this this author. But I don't think they realize had ever realized how much of that novel grew Devos's own experienced so her book was it was just a really fascinating you know and I felt that was important. Understand to en- like I said my initial approach going showing at the Shell to go at the film to write about. It was to try to come at it in a way that I hadn't before in one of the things that I thought was important to to go the took to approach the film was understand. More about the novel's author and the novel itself and then go back and look at the film again as glad that you brought up the idea of them. Changing the dates a few times in the novel revise. Et tempus himself. Did that and I don't. I never understood quite why he did that. Because went through printings you know there was the original first edition in sixty three and then there was a second edition in One thousand nine hundred seventy which is the the version of the press pressing if you will the publication of the novel the David Gemmell found and then there was the addition that was published when the movie came out the kind of movie tie in as they used to call it most days when they reissued it in all of those had they were his original dates and then after the movie came out some years the next edition which was by Bantam which was eighty two. He had altered the dates in cut a little bit material out. And I I don't know why ever did that. I thought legal listenable the book for you know just as you wrote it so yeah I thought people would find that interesting too that he he had Altered the book because the book became sort of you know I don't know about how to say it. Maybe not a best seller but the novel sort of took off after after the film and so maybe felt that he would try to contemporary. Is it by changing the dates or whatever. Where in the project did David Campbell? Kind of lose control. What did you say it was when British line took over the production I think so because at that point he was told that they they were going to going to make make the movie but he wasn't going to produce it and you know he said that was a huge blow because does he spent years developing and my guess I mean? I don't know precisely what year he optioned the novel but but I mean because he himself was one option. I mean it wasn't British line. It wasn't any other company. David himself option the novel Based on the pitch he gave Abbas didn't tavist would allow him to make it so he was able to option. Because Tab is light is idea so David had it for. Let's just say seventy two you because you know. There was a a company a television company in Britain The name escapes me at the moment. who was interested in turning turning it into a TV series which is a really interesting idea? I mean what. What if the man who were the WHO had become a TV show that radio him on a weekly series right with the the continuing adventures of Thomas Jerome but that never happened at interesting idea that never happens and so as soon as the company led the Knob of the novel goal he snapped it up? So let's say that seventy two somewhere in there and and so he had been developing this thing for a number of years and so the fact that he was removed right from producer Sir was was hit. He said Yeah. That was a loot huge blow. Because I'd spent so much time in so much money on in you know getting it made and he said you know Paul Maier's Berg who I'd approach to write the screenplay was doing his favor. He was writing it as a favor to me in other other words that he wasn't doing it I didn't have to pay him. He so believed in it that he was doing it on his. You know on his own because he's so much wanted the movie to be made so I'm going to say in David says it's essentially. He lost control after Nick. Robe agreed to make it and that was very quickly very soon after Negro agreed. He became his movie. Even though Paul Maier's Berg had been working on it for quite like some time he in mayors Bergen Nick Rogue went off in essentially wrote their version. And that's what they went with those early versions by mayors Harrisburg like that when he was writing for camel never seen them. I wish I had read some I could never get. I don't know whether David himself it has any. I could never get a a version. I did come across some years ago. I did come across. A script of the man who fell to Earth and facts was interesting because after we had prepared to to to talk tonight I went looking for it and I couldn't find it but a version of that script but it's interesting because the music was totally different for instance at the opening of the film. You know they're playing you. You know rocket man by John You know that's when we see the capsule's splashdown You know in that Mountain Lake and you know that the whole sequence where we're up in you know the NASA footage of the of the three-stage rocket you know the stages dropping off is at inner space a S- in that that some of that material we have now in the opening credits but over that would have been in one draft of it was rocket. Man I can tell you that much other parts of that script is I recall at a nice shirt. Certainly wish I had it in front of me and I can't find it Other parts of that script read pretty much not exactly but pretty closely to what we have now right. Not every part of it but parts of it read pretty closely and so I'm going to guess that if production started right in in early the June of nineteen seventy-five than that was the version that was sometime after Rogue came aboard which was early seventy five. Let's say February in April somewhere in there I think it was a version right in that in that range and it was moving in the direction of the film. We see now so that's the earliest version I've seen but I haven't seen anyone version earlier that now. I can't imagine that it was written in that fractured lead story style. No couldn't have been those kinds of changes right or that approach happened in the editing room. Yeah it it it had to Worry at became. I mean I I described Nick Rogue in the book is you know. A kind of one of the premier premier modernist cinema by that I mean it became that elliptic goal narrative of Out of sequence flashbacks partial flashbacks in other words only fragments of a flashback. Partial out of out of sequence flashbacks axe. That whole thing. I believe happened in the editing room which was You know somewhere. After September of seventy I five and and prior to the premiere because it was in the editing room for several months and you know of course that it was going to be distributed by paramount the then head of paramount. Who saw right they who saw Nick grow the cut right. The Negro had prepared that's when paramount essentially backed out and said we don't want it anymore and and so it went through this. You know we're going to sue you. It's all you know. This is all legal now. And we're going to. You're the YOU'RE GONNA regret this and so on. It was Berry Diller who was then head of paramount paramount had released nick robes. Don't now which had done very well. So they were interested in working with him again. So paramount had had agreed to to to do essentially pay offset introduction costs if they got American distribution rights. And so when Michael Dealy who was you know the producer screened it for Barry diller in New York robes rough cut in New York and dillard become chairman of paramount in nineteen seventy seventy four. That is after. Don't look now but prior to don't you know the man who felt errors and Berry dealer screened it and Said said absolutely no way. Are we going to release this movie. We ask for linear film. This is not the movie movie. That paramount bought the picture. We bought as linear. And this isn't was what Michael Daly said. Andy Lee he said Wall is only a rough caught without any Polish or without any music. There's no posts sink or sound effects and Berry diller according to him I'm was unmoved and diller said. Forget it we're forget were out of this deal and so that put them in a bad way. Ride that as you know. Michael deleon very spicy things right. I mean that they were now in trouble and so that's one. They went to cinema in. I know cinema five right. Donald Ru Goff's New York based cinema five. which is the the the distribution company that released it in the united that states and he agreed to give them model? I don't remember the figure I think he gave them. Between eight hundred nine hundred thousand dollars for the North north-american North American rights to the film. deely said that helped us a lot. I mean the the fact that he agreed to take it and to give us is that amount helped us mentally but the point is that that after that screening that disastrous screening in New York were diller said no way no how the man who fell earth was now understood in. The industry considered in the industry is as a damage damage goods right. There's something wrong with this movie. We're not touching it with a ten foot pole so the fact that cinema five that's liked offbeat On usual European import films picked it up. Help them but no Hollywood. You Know Studio was GonNa pick that film up No way no how right. So that is it is a result right of of Nick Robes decision to due to make it a what do you WanNa say a modernist. You know our house film and I don't I don't necessarily say that pejoratively but I mean that was his decision to cut it that way and and turn it into that. That kind hips disjointed highly elliptical narrative. I looked up what David Bowie said the movie. I don't think he especially liked it. I mean if you look at interviews with him when he talks about it he says he says I don't know I I don't I don't find that the the the the film is there's nothing warm about it the scene the intimate scenes. Were you know With Mary Lou. The sex scenes were strange and odd. He he found the film. Sort of interesting. I mean. He just didn't he didn't eat himself. Didn't really care for it now. He didn't say that at the time I mean he you know he so he did his duty to promote the movie but personally years later and of course I don't mean two or three years I mean this is twenty years later right or he admitted that he. I didn't care for the film very much. But then he revisited the film in its own work which I found interesting yes. One of his last works with Lazarus Right which which premiered shortly before his death. And you know Nick Rowe had made a statement I think which was interesting about the man who felt earthy said imagine the movie. Imagine them out. Man Fell to Earth as all all the The hallucination of a of a dying industrial magnate all in his head. It's all a fantasy and it's it's almost like Bowie. Took that idea with Lazarus right and said Okay and in an sort of staged at around the idea that Thomas Jerome Newton was in this confined aimed at a misanthrope confined. If you will like a like a Howard or Jews misanthrope right in this room look reliving his life and with elements that come out of the man who fell to her earth so yeah that is interesting. He returned to that. I mean I did that is but maybe he's trying to rethink the movie itself. Haussa fight a little ironic. That one of Bowie's in my opinion best roles was when he was Nikola Tesla. And I can see Tesla almost falling from the heavens at some point yeah prestige. Yes he was. He was very good at that movie. I can't imagine rogue working with rip torn because towards personality was another oversized oversized one. I don't know if it's very spiting might have been who brought both rip torn and Buck Henry into it. In other words that was part of the producers deal that they represented them or they were clients or some connection. So That's how both canyon and and rip torn he got involved in. The first place was not Negro but that Kinda came with the producers that came with them that they were part of the deal. And that point is you know Negro was involved with Romantically involved with Candy Clark and that sort of how she came in the movie. Yeah I did find and noted in the book that he and Candy Clark absolutely detested one. Another I don't know whether that whether the affected what finally is on the screaming but he during the production from what I gather you know he had his own Coterie And he kept himself with them and the it was minimal contact between him and candy. Clark and mm-hmm how Nick Robes your did there. I don't know but their relationship was not a good one during the filming you can see photos from the together and everything looks great but but it wasn't rip torn that raises an interesting question. I think Buck Henry raises an interesting question. It's kind of an odd casting. It it you know you wonder who might have been a better choice. And I don't know I I don't know who might have been. I'd never thought about the movie that way. If you don't have rip torn who would be if you don't have buck Henry who would be but let's say that you replace one or the other. You have a totally different movie. So that's how they they got involved in. It is Rather A. It's not a big cast by need citizen. The only character I mean there is no I mean there is the the equivalent of a Buck Henry. The lawyer right is as lawyer. There is a character that is is rip torn in fact he's the one correct who suspects that there's something odd or strange about Thomas Jerome Newton and he becomes as it were the kind of Judas figure they are in the novel and I think that their roles rules are approximate. What we see in the film now We don't have a sequence equivalent to where the buck Henry character is thrown out the window for instance There's nothing like that what we have we have seen somewhat like the scene when Rip Torn takes the takes the X Ray photograph of Thomas Drum Newton which reveals his identity. Right which where he sees that strange lack of internal structure. There is a scene like that in the novel title but You know again I think that one of the things that was changed from the novel and an Eh from the novel in his in the the film is that kind of nebulous vague corporate presence. There's the character earlier earlier in the film. This is America Corporate America and we tend to keep we intend to keep it that way. So there you have it. Strange Figur- you're on the hill at the beginning when Newton I lands and he's kind of is trying to climb down that that that Slag tape near the you know the the old coal mine at the beginning and you see that figured simply called the watcher in any literature attorney. Any anything I've ever read about the film that's in addition for instance But the idea's there in other words that there was a sense at some point point the C. I. A. and the American Government learned about Thomas Drome Newton's landing. So I think that did they sort of concretize. I mean made an actual character. The one the watcher who appears watching Boise because he stumbles and slides down that slag heap at the beginning of the movie. And then we see him later staring at Bowie asleep right when he's confined in that apartment building right that that decrepit apartment building at the end and he now has a beard. And he's simply staring at the sleeping Bowie figure. Sure so I think they added him just to liberalise to make actual that idea that somehow the moment that Thomas Jerome Newton landed he he was known about that the CIA. The American government had known about it. So yeah that that paranoid aspect of it is there but I guess as they had sort of actualize that in some way or another. What were your biggest challenge? Just putting this together I wanted to write about it in a fresh new way. I remember getting comments from people colleagues and others people. I know comments through facebook comments on email to the effect and it was. It was a challenge. I took it as a challenge but the comments essentially were. What else is there to say about it? And we'll have all a book that could have been done. Why this one I mean? What else do we want to know what do you what do you think you can add? Well you know. I've told you think I could add. Ah Information about the author. I think I get added information about how the project started with David Campbell the competing visions of what the film should should be. I don't think that's been published. I don't think any of that's been published so but I took that as a challenge in other words it didn't offend me as like okay. I'll show you what I think we need need to know right. The book is a book about. What don't we know about the movie so mile operating procedure throughout how was Detroit to explore the movie talking about things we don't know or haven't considered before so that was that was? The biggest challenge is just is to convince people that another book should be written about the man who felt earth on the other hand. I don't know that there's been that many. But apparently they're they're commentary and eyesight some of them in my bibliography. Of course there's others on it but they're nothing like mine and they're more about Bowie and more about this and that than the actual production The actual day to day production the actual individuals were involved in all of that I think To my knowledge in my research had been had been talked about before I didn't approach it as autour film. I'm an okay. This is another yet. Another a tourist film made eight my neck rogue. I didn't want to do that. I didn't think that was particularly informative. And and yeah I mean you start exploring. What do we know about the film it? They're actually you're right. There isn't that much and I mean there's some out there but a lot of it surrounds Bowie in his mythology allergy and Tourist criticism about front based on rag is an autour that kind of thing but I mean the actual sort of specifics fix production development production and so on. I just didn't think there was enough out there and and so I think in that way I find a contribution to our understanding. You know I'd like to Dan. There are many other films out there one would love to write That probably need you in my opinion the kind of research that I I did on the man who shelter earth and has done very well I might say it's is done I know that. There's an Alamo draft house in Omaha where they have copies continually available when they continually sell. They continue replaced. I I mean that's a small index. That's a small indicator but you know it seems to me to be doing pretty well because I think people are interested in the movie and they wanna a they want to know more about it in in ways. That aren't just simply more Bowie. You're more more row but but other kinds of approaches and other other kinds of questions. I'm happy to say it's done pretty well so I think I've answered the question the question. Why another book or why this book I think because does it answered the kind of questions people had about the movie early cycle? So that's why selling well what's next. What are you working on now? Rebecca I are are working working on a Another book together. It's a change. You might be surprised with what we wanted to do was called nuances of feeling and it's about sentiment in cinema and sentiment and so what we're trying to explore are what I would recall what are perceived to be conventional films that have an element of strangeness. An ominous to them so for instance a film that we are very much intrigued by is now voyager. The bette Davis film From may aid virtually at the same time back to back overlapping with Casablanca in nineteen forty. Two and that movie is very very strange. I think it's a I showed it this semester to my students and they loved it they absolutely loved it and they never heard of it but I tried to approach it. As if I'm glad you you know good. I'm glad you loved it. It's a great film but there's so much we can't account for in it. There's so much strangeness snus In it there are so many things that give it a kind of quality that let's say classic Hollywood films don't have and actually let me digress a second. I think that's part of what always attracted me about. The man who fell earth is trying to account for its strangeness. And so I guess I'm I I guess I'm drawn to films like that where there seems to be something about them. You can't quite identify but what you need to which you want to because it's like an itch like how does this thing work. Why is that stuff there? And so that's what we're working on. And this is a major thing a major project in its. We've been working being on now a long time and it's coming together but it's very difficult but that's a model film and it's coming out in a criterion a couple of weeks. Finally they went out of print. You know it's interesting. I'll tell you an interesting anecdote when people always discovered that I teach film film history. Straighten film genre on Blah Blah Blah. One of the questions. I've I've I've been asked over and over and over is oh well do you teach now voyager and so I think there's a huge cultural interest in that movie which criterion I guess finally realized. Those are the kinds of films that were were seeking thing to talk about. And that's what we're doing right now. So yeah it's a big change from a film like The man who seller but I've learned so much and of course we we've written together before in that's always a good thing for for both of us. The the usual joke from people when they were working on a new book together How's it going in? You know our our stock schick responses that we're we're not divorced yet but yeah we we like working together and we bring in different things to the project. So that's what we're working on. That's a long answer so it's a change you know. It's a change from what I've I normally have been. I'm doing you know in terms. I mean I I have an article I'm working on. That's going to be published in a book on the continuing influence of fifty science science fiction. And I'm working on that individually Becky's working on a project on British novels and and That's her own independent project so we were on individual things. But that's the one that that's the book project were both working on. Well Sam thank you so much for your time. Climate is always a pleasure talking with you. Oh likewise well. I don't know we always seem to have a good time. Don't we Uh I'm very curious how you got into in writing. Oh always wrote. I wrote from the age of eight so I had to kind of you know sort of vaguely traumatic childhood. Do some good recipe for an author. So yeah so just started writing and all through high school college everything from what I understand. You did a zing back in the day I sure did I did defensing in in Los Angeles in nineteen seventy seven that was really pretty. UK Guy No UK central. I look at copies online now. And they sell for way more than I've ever made out of my book That's okay we were doing like Xerox and glue stick or exactly Xerox and Yeah on little ransom. Note letter styles and all that Really just sort of interviewed damned blondie all kinds of things and then got bored with it. Early on on and SORTA stopped midsummer. Seventy seven so ephemeral. But that's kind of how my attention span wins however you connected with music scene I. It's just always loved it. I mean to having been a Bowie fan and then transition in London in seventy seven. When punk was well it was breaking broken for for most English people when we were first becoming aware of it and So just forgot all about Bowie and went onto the punk thing with passion and pretty much every other cult that followed I did. I went along with that so but music music. Writing was the first kind of well. I suppose the first writing I did for for money when I was little I was writing any thing about Surfing Ping or other things that I did but from what I understand he wrote for like Mo Jo and span and some of the other met music magazines. Yeah that was a great thing and then also. I got not really interested in English soccer and I wrote about for some soccer magazines in England and a little bit here as well. So that's a kind of strange transition. But that's what I did. When did you switch? It's too Reading books. Let's see I wrote my first book when I was in Grad school at USC so in in the eighties I was yeah was doing still both both things. Music writing and writing A novel or Novella and short stories and in fact that the novella short stories is going to be. Reissued hasn't e-book early in the New Year so it was kind of strange to see that. Come around yeah a Lotta Lotta Bowie in it and a lot of punk and all that stuff. It's nice to have a second life of some sort I guess. And how did you transition and start writing about wore notes. Yeah it's a good question. I get that a lot I think I'll probably alienated a lot of my war notes of fans by writing about Bowie but there you go I was wanting to do a book I was wanting to do a nonfiction books because fiction was so uncertain a friend said. Why don't you write a book about your favorite actor and I thought okay my favorite actors? Warren oates without must be a book about war notes. That I don't know of that amazingly there wasn't so there I jumped in and did it. And what a wild ride I had so it was so much fun book received when it came out. Yeah well will. It got really good reviews and that was so rewarding because I really got so lost in it it took me four years and actually what I turned in was like two hundred pages which is longer than what eventually came out and I'm really got carried away with so much indepth things it. Yeah it's been it's been very consistent and nice and I. I loved working key with the university. Press of Kentucky on it. They were a great home and continue to be. You said that you've written about Bowie since the mid seventies so I'm curious the how did you decide that you're going to just focus on the man who fell to Earth period. I was out with some friends in Santa Fe trying to find something to follow up word oath. Oh it's with which was really proving difficult because it was just so rewarding and so much fun that I thought well what can I do next. And nothing was appealing to be and A writer about writer friends suggested what about us. You know favorite Biography of a movie type book and I thought Okay and then Amanda fell to Earth came to mind eventually. When I'd gone through other films I thought I might write about an authentic that that would be very cool and it was it was it is yeah big Fan of the movie before you started writing? Think about Oh definitely seen it probably already about sixteen times because well. Yeah I know. I know I'm going into almost thirty. It's really yeah but And a bunch of probably up there to see both so many times down. The man who fell to Earth is not necessarily the easiest movie to get into. And I'm curious. What was your initial impression impression of it when you saw it all those years ago it was so much better than we then I thought and it was very quite dreamy and we love the depiction of Bowie is sort of other? Well it it was otherworldly. But that was that was great At gone to premiere in We'll premier with no one there in Westwood are screening. It was in Westwood and on the big screen to see you know my hero was something terrific so and I i. I liked the film. I thought he would definitely I did. I'm not sure that I realized that was New Mexico when I thought the first time but I think that adds so much to the the look of it especially considering that when the book was written it was setting in Kentucky Coming Back Kentucky but it would not have been the same film. I don't think with the Kentucky Landscape you talk to. I don't know how many people writing this book. I was just floored by your footnotes. Just all of the interviews that you did for this and I've got to ask. How long did it take to put the book together? We'll actually compared to warn for years Just a couple to two or three years so not two and a half. Maybe I just really got my head down and got on with it so I didn't didn't take as long as all that. Just the Presley patrol those people down it. Will you know who I never tracked down. Still haunts me to this day is the girl who played the daughter her that helium daughter and she was a Hollywood actor. Kid and it's impossible to find her and peop-. Nobody remembers her name anything. It just drives me crazy other than that. I found pretty much everybody. I wouldn't beat yourself up too much. I mean you're talking to the costume designers. The makeup people everybody behind the scenes scenes and so many people in front of the camera. I was just amazed by the depth of research that you did thank you. That's my thing I just get so into it that I almost go. Oh baby too far into it. But I love the dimension that the extras and like the key the casting agent into Mexico the younger guy. it was so much fun to get their take on things because a lot of people had told their stories many times before the the people of the line and It was fun to get people who were right. They're seeing it from a totally different perspective. And you know watching David Bowie. Go fishing and crazy things like that. You know it was just charming. Yeah what what's your approach to. Just go out and just start finding interviews or do you go into the archives and start looking through like the local New Mexico papers or what is your way to did. I use the paper in the newspapers. A lot and archives if I can and then generally if I if you find one name with any luck you can kind of find some more. So but that's about a lot of time spent in New Mexico kind of nosing around and always always librarians and people from the historical societies are just invaluable. What what were some of the most surprising things for you to uncover because I know that you're a fan of this film? To begin with how Bowie was really for anything how he did not play the superstar role at all. It was willing to you know even with damage to his. I wear these contact lenses for that. Created the cats. Is You know for the alien that were really quite painful. And he was not a pre Madonna at all. He was willing to do anything that he was asked to do. And I thought that was pretty impressive. What was the relationship like between him and Nick Roque? I think I think it was respectful but I always felt that he was being kept out of the loop at times for Getting scripts and so on because I think rogue wants wanted to keep them off balance to keep you know the character more Estranged that was not sitting so well with with with Bowie Bowie but overall I don't think there were any stocks or any big fights or anything like that so although I don't know how close they remained after the film I think was was initially stressed out from the The the doing the role and written a song word on the word on the wing. That's on station to station about traumatized. He was to have made the film so he didn't really do a lot to promote. Of course it was not all that well received when it came out but he was not behind it he was already onto the next thing so oh a little disgruntled. That he didn't get to do the soundtrack which there's a variety of theories as to why that didn't happen but in a way I think it'd probably was for the best. Well Yeah it's feels like a real. He said he said kind of thing. When it comes to then I'm curious? What your take is on that whole situation? I think they're three the things that may be that Bowie got bored. Doing the soundtracks are that Nicaragua's not happy with what go ahead given him. If there was anything in fact or leslie that was offered less money than than he was promised and he was just miffed about at all so. I think that might have been something that would make you stop creating. And maybe he just wasn't really behind it to begin with. I'm not sure but I have a feeling money. Money would always be a thing as Bowie. Fan Dan when you went to see it for the first time. Were you upset or said that there was no boy music in it. No I think it was a good thing. I think I agree with Nick Rogue about that that it would have taken in You in wrong direction. To have his music would have made you know Bowie Singer and star and I know there were some songs initially included in one of the versions of the screenplay Palmeiras burks versions. But I think that was just to make it more saleable when they had rocket Nan and changes space oddity in there but I was I think Graeme Clifford Toby Elvis Standard Practice to get a script filmed in those days. Maybe even still today. I was very surprised when Graeme Clifford was talking about using pink floyd as a temporary score. That would be strange. Wouldn't it I mean he was still really firmly behind that but I I don't know myself I I think I think with John Phillips put together in a really ridiculously short period of time is pretty darn good. I can almost hear and no pun intended. I can almost hear. Echoes of pink. Floyd Loyd through some of some parts of that I agree I agree. And that's probably his. His remit was probably told that we need something like this and the still move. You must've stuff quite beautiful. pull its yeah I no soundtrack came out but I think they're. The pilot was disappointed in hell. How it how? It was released a couple of years go year ago two years ago New Mexico was kind of a rough and tumble area. At that point. I've heard stories of Dennis Hopper and his is commune for lack of a better term in towse and just how wild it was. Did they have any sort of issues with filming there from the local us. I mean that's one of my interviewees in Majid said that Some of the locals were a little unhappy because maybe they had a little sideline growing something. That was still illegal and no longer legal in California that still illegal in New Mexico and they didn't want to have any of that appear on film. I think there was a little some tension in a bar would between Bowie was out with Martin. Samuel his who did the fact that wonderful hair for that. I think there is a little. Yeah seen in the bar where it got a little testy and I always liked that bowie refers to border bar but they never really got that close to Mexico. All I can think of is maybe they were close to Texas so which could be could be a border of another kind. Strategic The furthest South they've gone and that's that's a tough town so where he would have they would have more certainly stood out well really anywhere they went including Santa Fe and Albuquerque. Yeah I mean I think people I know one of my interviewees said we didn't people like that. We didn't see people like Bowie or even in particular. Angie when Angie Bowie rolled into talented thought they had never seen anything like that so I was really glad that you you covered having Angie and to pronounce it Zoe Zoe so e okay but we but I've heard all kinds of all kinds kinds of pronunciations and of course now it's easy to say Dunkin so I think she's often given short shrift because she's probably not easiest person but then neither was he so I think it's it's deserved that she gets her day. He would not have had the same style or ideas at all without her. And I'm trying to remember the name of the other woman who ooh slashes mother. I can't remember. Yeah on the Hudson. Those beautiful suits. Yeah Yeah that that is true she. She contributed a lot to the his look is more tailored look in in the film that it also breaks my heart to think of all those clothes were donated to the Salvation Army in Albuquerque. Not when they left they wanted maybe not the older Hudson close but all the rest of the things that they had put together. That may routed brought in they just got rid of so. What a field day if you were into thrift? The store that day any any any number of things I'd love to have. I'm really glad that you gave the history of the FIDORA's. Oh yeah that's yeah that's it's fun. It's hard to. Yeah that's an amazing story to see What actually happened lower? They all ended up onto. Obviously there are more than one but that moby had one loss did did and so on and so forth. It's pretty incredible. How was rip torn at this time? Well I know like to go fishing. I know that he was drinking gene heavily but he was not alone in that or any other kind of substances that might of been floating around I think he was not the real to be in the film but he was happy to be working and he had friends there so he you know he was fine. I don't know that he bowie were best buddies but they worked worked. Okay together. I mean that's terrific and I think I know I know he was at one point very concerned about filming a love scene well several but are a couple and He didn't WANNA look out of shape with these young coeds and so he's trying very hard to get fit like in a couple of days and obviously that it doesn't quite work so funny I've Read Different Accounts About how Candy Clark along with Bowie. It seems like from reading in your book it seems like they got along well and then I read other accounts where they didn't get along. Well what's your take on that. From people have told me he really felt that she overacted overacted or stepped on his lines a lot and then I in other ways I mean I never. He never said anything against her or the or really much of anything at all. I know he thought her best acting was done in that. That ad libbed Scene where they're in the LIMO and the train goes bar. Yeah their away. They're stopped at the the level crossing the train goes by and she kind of goes into a thing about what the trains used to be like when she was young and he really complemented that. I don't know without outlet. I mean it's it's hard to say I mean it's rumored that maybe they had a dalliance but I know she's denied that and not many people would deny David Bowie so then she was also going with broke at the same time. I believe true true but Angie had kind of intimated that who knows what was going on during their script meetings back in their house onto heaney Dr who were the most challenging people to get in touch with rogue's held Nicaragua. Health was not so good. Although they were he was very wife wife facilitated it so graciously Couldn't get Palmares Berg. Oh Henry sadly not just couldn't get him so yeah so that would be but everybody Eddie US was fairly easy. It's kind of like if you know one English person you know the mall. I forget who said that in my book maybe it was Howard. Rubin if you know one person and you know them all so one person and it's still kind of that way a little bit so for previous book from the previous book I had known Katie Haber and she's like the best liaison. The person could dream of his second secretary and she's still knows everybody in town so like the best thing in the world just to know her in many many ways did your opinion that the movie chain while you were doing all this research I see it so many times. Some things are creaky a little certainly. The pace by modern. Modern standards is painfully slow I still never got my head around the pingpong seen I just I can't I don't know what that point. I just WanNa make it stop. I can't count. I don't like that seeing I feel like it makes the movie way too long beyond that. No I think it's still very lyrical. And a serial and kind of has Bowie said it had to a real sense of magic and forboding about it and I think that holds true. Why do you think Bowie revisited? That with the whole Lazarus is so interesting interesting to me because he had so much material he could have chosen from but he must have strongly connected with the character. I know he once he had some distance. This is from the film. He tended to to speak really fondly of it as I say when it came out I think he distance himself a little bit because it had been cut and also because it the reviews these were not spectacular. But certainly now it's much more highly Sada's and and deservedly. So how do you think that affected his relationship with Hollywood because he would go on to be in so many other films after that it is so true I I don't know I think maybe people had seen seen him in it and see knew that he was people deliver the goods. I mean here. He was essentially a first time after definitely in a major film. Yeah I think probably one thing led to another trophy did continue. Can you to be continue to work in film right up to the end. So what's next for you kind of like a little prequel collaborating on us. Sort of pre prequel pull of to the man who fell to Earth. So I'll let that the mystery but any Bowie fan would probably say I know what that is and that's collaborating with an artist in London doing a pretty looking book. I've not that not that Earth bound is pretty. I think my publisher did a beautiful job putting it together Susan Campbell. Where's the best place for people to keep in touch with you or keep up on your work like facebook and then I I should be putting together a better site than that but will thank thank you so much for your time? This is great with so much fun talking to you. All right. We're back and we're talking about the man who fell to Earth and did you guys get a chance chance to see the TV movie. Pleased up you did. I tried and I couldn't do it of all the things that I've made Andrea Watch over the last however many years we've been together twenty. Some years she put her foot down when it came to the T. V.. She she was just like after this. I get with a remote back and you are not watching anything in this house with the next one four hours. She should have made a forty eight. Oh it is bad it is really. I don't know why they would do that. It's so I definitely person who hates remakes and I'm sure there are some exceptions exceptions and you know anytime I say I hate remakes. People always are obnoxious and say what about the thing. And what about invasion of the body. Saturday's like yeah shut. That's fine this sort of need to say okay. We have this really great film. I know instead of making another interesting film. Let's just make this one again. And this is a perfect example of how that is a horrible concept. That should just shouldn't be done. It doesn't help that. This is nineteen eighty seven when they're making this version so by that time all of these other movies and TV shows and all. This stuff have happened so now. Oh the man who fell to Earth. TV movie feels like it's a pilot for something else and it feels like it's a pilot. For almost like a star man reboot like I know there was the star Man TV series and the Star main movie. It feels a little like that. If feels a little V when he takes his contacts out and he's got the cats I kind of thing if feels a little cash ever a bunch of other things while I was watching him just like this. It seemed so similar to other things and he doesn't necessarily have the brains that Thomas Jerome Newton had. He doesn't necessarily have love. The doesn't have the looks. I mean this is the guy that played perfect Tommy in Baku Banzai and he doesn't even have the same name it goes by John Dory which I guess sounds like John Doe but not enough and man it's just really strange and then also that his big invention is the first gigabyte computer chip bad on so many levels And in this one. It's not Mary Lou. It is Eva Milton so I don't know if they're making John Milton reference there but I might be over thinking thinking this and that's Beverley D.. Ngelo and she's got a bratty son. Who is into wearing a lot of fringe on his jacket and shoplifting? Uplifting records and cassette tapes from places played by the one and only Mr will wheaton which is horrible. Like how can you make an adaptation of men who fell to Earth worse. Let's add will wheaton into the mix you got another star trek alum with Robert Cardo as the FBI agent. WHO's chasing him? And then you've got Bruce McGill as the brace character who has vernon gauge. For whatever reason they couldn't name any of the characters the same names which was just absolutely bizarre. There must be some sort of weird rights thing going on with this but yeah and then it ends on a hopeful note of him possibly rescuing his family so as it ends. I'm just like was this a TV pilot. It really feels like it was and I. I know that they're actually making a TV series or trying to. I'm not sure if it's been shot yet or if it's just in the pre production stages but Alex Kirkman is working on a TV series of the man who fell to Earth. And I'm just afraid of what that's going to be. It's horrible did either of you guys see Lazarus the David Bowie play. 'CAUSE I didn't even know that this existed until doing research for this I have not seen it. I mean it wasn't that like the the opening of it was the last time he appeared in public. I want to say I think you're right. That's something that I would love to see but haven't I would love to see it as well because it's interesting that his last project ends up going back to man who fell to Earth you know of all the things in his career. You're that he could look back on that. He ends up revise at revising and revitalizing this. Thomas Jerome Newton character. I don't remember which because I think they've had like seven different productions but I think the New York production was Michael Hall as Thomas Jerome Newton which chypre find very interesting. Because I think he's a very interesting actor and skits. I can't remember it was you that turned me onto this or not but the David Bowie is the the man who fell from Earth. Two thousand seventeen documentary. I found that really interesting. Yeah I did too I was I found it on video. Thanks for free. I kind of got the feeling that had been based on the quality of the film clips that maybe it coincided with the release of the BLU ray or something I don't own the the film on DVD. Or Blu. Ray I haven't seen the creek criterion so I don't really know what kind of extras are on them. But that this film felt like they had a lot of access to material and really high quality material and rights to a music and film clips. So I assumed sooner had something there was some kind of official promotion for for the movie coming out on Blu Ray or something. Yeah I think it's one of the extras. They're a bunch of them including the the interview that I talked about with Bowie and rogue is part of so they they included did a commentary track. But it's not like a conventional commentary it's basically interviews with different people cut together the running length of the film and some of those are Bowie and broke and presumably. They're watching the film while they're talking about live but it's not just like them for two hours to great. I love how the documentaries put together. I mean sometimes it shows if you've just watched the movie and then you watch this documentary. It it shows entire scenes thinking I just watched this but I love how it layers scenes from the movies with scenes from Bowie's music career. I don't it's it's really well put together. I thought yeah. I ended up buying this thing three times just for research for this. So you got the criterion the Anchor Bay version that was Just on DVD. Thank because there is one extra there that I couldn't find and otherwise and then the lions gate release. which is the thick box? It's a three disc set which is interesting. And they've got. I think they have more extras on their than they do. On the criterion which just seems really strange to me I feel like criterion has kind of given up a little. I would not argue with that because especially when it comes to extras. It feels like they're not porting over pre existing getting extras and they're just not making or buying or paying for new Extras Keno has recently been releasing a Mel Films on Blu Ray and I got to do some of the commentaries and I've had people writing me like why don't criteria do this like I'm not in charge of anything I don't know but it is a good point like why do I don't WanNa say less reputable bowl but why does sort of less prestigious companies seem to still be putting an effort into making extras whereas criterion. I feel like in the last asked maybe three or so years. It's like they've stopped making any new extras very frustrating and it feels like disrespectful respectful to the films and just for preservation interests. You would think that they would want to have all the things on their discs well criteria on. If you're listening you've been judged you been judged lacking all right we're gonNA take another break in play a preview for next week show. The creation of the humanoids out of the atomic war came perfect man. They humanoids man's own creation. Aw physically mentally perfect created to serve them masters men and women what could man compete with his creation. The perfect man. You love that that that machine. I love packs. He's dedicated to keeping me. Happy and I am happy. The robots quads are machines. They must be made like machines. The perfect man created needed via man becomes man's worst enemy PROC- the most provocative story of film the most unusual story ever filmed. You must see to believe that the creation of the humanoid the perfect man. That's where it will be back next week with a look at the creation of the humanoids until then I want this week's coho Salmon Skills Sam. What has been keep you busy a lot of things that I? I'm always terrible this because usually what I'm working on hasn't been announced yet so I always play this game of what. What can I say last month? Might this book that I wrote on Fritz Lang's film 'em came out And I somewhat recently lays started a new podcast called the evil eye which is all about goth movies or they're not really all Gotha movies but were making a case. So those are the two things off the top of my head. What would you consider goth movie one of the things that we're looking at our movies with like explicitly Goth characters? So you know for that to count. It's mostly things made made after nineteen eighty so like we could. We're going to definitely cover the hunger at some point but we also have been covering some do things with more sort of broadly literary gothic themes. Like we just did a bunch of vincent price episodes. And you know it's our podcast cast so we were being a little flexible with what that means. PODCASTS are step off yeah. We'll do we want. You're not the boss of this. This I hear you have some big news to share sir. Yes the film. I guess I've talked about every time I've been on this show that I've worked on since nineteen ninety nine nine ice. Pick to the moon. The documentary about Fred Lane I'm sending it off to the. DVD manufacturer any day now and we have a big DVD release party at the end of January in Birmingham Alabama. Where not only is it the DVD release? It's also the album released party for Fred lanes new album album which nobody saw coming including me otherwise I would have given the film a different name because it's the same name as the album is picked to the Mon.. Not only that but Fred Lane will be making his first publicized public appearance since nineteen seventy six. So getting ready for that uh-huh and next time I'll be able to talk about my my new film well and for folks who have been anxiously awaiting ice pick to the moon the movie to come out I will be releasing our audio commentary tracks. Oh folks can play at home and if you listen to that as a podcast or actually a by the movie and listen to the commentary track on the DVD yeah. There's there's a nice picture when we recorded that. There was a young the lady in the audience who asked a question. She also took a picture and her picture is used on one of the DVD menus. And so you can see would mike and I both look like Oh you poor people. Well thank you again guys for being on the show. Thanks to everybody for listening please head on over to the website projection booths podcast dot com. Where you can find out more about today's episode? He also find a link of a Patriot where he can make donation to the show every donation weekend house a projection projection booth take over the world uh-huh uh-huh And UP IN HAVE A. I've got scars that can't see I've drawn can't be stolen and everybody do those. Aw uh-huh with him nothing Aleph So makes my brain world myself down below And your okay. Zero shoot a chefs talk shows. Thank and and uh-huh yeah uh-huh In fact my bags last night preflight zero hour. Nine am such It's GONNA be Judge Joe. Find the man they. Yeah earning fuse here. Alot in touch with again. I'm not walk eight plates to raise a kid. In fact it's cold as hell veterans and Saddam. Draw the brings. Pomeroy forthing on this. I think it's GonNa. Peo Long brings on again. I on the EH Oh well Split you know that his critics review valet acted space back. Good jump roof you like Bowie. deep-space making Nichols get points. Do you use your tipple's telescopic on tonight'd transmitted ulta purchase nude freaky out bastards. You do you have one really funky sequence. He couldn't spacesuit belly or do you have several changes to this graph not experience this as jet blue receiving John's mission David Nicholl anti reading. Ed this is Yep Thursday. Aw the JAL Shindo Johnny the Mike Judge. ooh Is unknown after A. I'm thinking by Kenya. Say Go on if you enjoy this show and want more people to know about it head on over to itunes leave a comment and rated five five stars. Make sure you like insurance on facebook and don't forget to follow us on twitter just search for Christopher media. Thank you in advance for supporting Christopher Media by clicking on the pay pal about about new and by clicking through to all the sponsors who support Christopher media dot net most importantly we would like to take the time to extend extra special. Thanks to you. Christopher media could not not exist without your support thank you for visiting Christopher Media Dot Net and thank you for listening Christopher media. Let's make some noise. Did you know you can get more value from your Medicare coverage choose optima Medicare HMO and get medical and prescription drug coverage coverage plus benefits like dental vision and allowance for over the counter products with plans starting at just your dollars per month. 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