17 Burst results for "Patrick Skinners"
CounterClock
"patrick skinner" Discussed on CounterClock
"Recall, I don't think there are any testing was necessary. Okay, and if I were to tell you that the recall that you claim an indicating your report was on John's gun is in fact a recall for a completely different model year gun, what would you say to that? I'd say I don't agree. You don't agree that you might be wrong or you don't agree that a recall for John's gun never existed. No, recalls for John's gun did exist. Would you be willing to submit that perhaps the recall that you found was for a different gun? I don't agree. Okay, so your double down on that. Who is a 22 that went through the corner of his eye? Well, it actually wasn't a 22, it was a 17 caliber ammunition shot out of a 22. Yeah. It pretty much came up. Just a little more kick to it. Well, I mean, you can say pretty much the same, but I mean, there was 17 caliber ammunition loaded in another firearm of the same caliber on that property. Were you aware of a second 22 revolver on that property? No? Her first I'm hearing about that. In your investigation in 2016 and 2017, did you ever investigate the presence of a possible identical revolver that was on the property that day? No. That could have been something that was never told, it was never put in the notes. In the case file from back in 2003, both for DeSoto county as well as FDLE, it stated that a second 22 6 shot revolver from Ruger was on the property the day that John died and would have been loaded with 17 caliber ammunition, the same as John's gun was loaded. So it is in the reports in the case file that you would have reviewed. Do you think it's possible you just missed that? Probably just don't remember it to be honest with you. So I think it's safe to say, James never explored investigating Mel's seniors identical revolver, which is really a shame. I moved on from that, though, because there was another pressing matter to address. You stated that in 2016, you re interviewed Patrick skinner. When I spoke with Patrick skinner, he did not recollect ever being interviewed by you. He was. Okay, so you interviewed him in 2016. What do you remember about your interview with him where was it? Was it over the phone? No, it's a person at my office. So what did you and Patrick talk about
CounterClock
"patrick skinner" Discussed on CounterClock
"Of Potter when he said they had their recent meeting and here's what he told me. I'm comfortable telling you that yes, that's certainly a point of our discussion. And it's been a really interesting issue as well. So in the end, like Ashley, what are your thoughts? I mean to me, it's like every thing on paper that says this case is closed. To me, has just kind of been upended, right? The undetermined ruling upended if curdy wasn't given correct information. I mean, again, even if I don't even think that should have happened anyways. But again, that's the information you got that did it. You saw things that didn't make sense to you. I think that needs to be changed back to a homicide. And again, this person who is responsible for kind of reinvestigating and looking at it. If they were not in a place to be making these sound logical decisions doing their best work for a family who deserves their best work, Helen deserves the best work for her son, who did not make it. To his 18th birthday. That needs to be completely re looked at from start to finish. And honestly, I think they need to put everything he did aside. They have to they can't look to anything he did and point to that as their basis for clearing someone talking to someone like they've got to start all the way back at the beginning. Which is what this case needs. Yeah, and I think, again, just to go back to that piece of like, is what James curdy did the best. I would say no. No. Is what bevel Gardner and associates did the best? No. But then I also go back to this other question of is it accurate? And I can not and I will not ever be able to let go of the moment where I'm interviewing Patrick skinner. And I read him the report from James Kirby that says, I interviewed Patrick skinner in May of 2016. I re interviewed pat straighter and their stories didn't change. I don't even remember that. Patrick's really nice and he's such a good person that he was like, oh, I actually don't even care. He's like, I don't want to call him a liar, but I don't recognize his name. I don't remember that conversation. Here's to all the stuff I do remember. And there's no reason for Patrick to like lie about talking to James curtie, so like, I will never be able to get over like, is that even accurate? Like were we even speaking to people and doing our due diligence as a law enforcement agency when James wrapped up the case? And I would say, no, he did not. I just don't know, like this is like the biggest issue I think I have with like the justice system is like, again, who's holding these people accountable? Us, right? Like the people who are writing the stories about it, bringing attention to this. Because the frustration I'm going to feel like the state's attorney hears, hears this. We see it clear as day. If any other job, like again, if we did a podcast and Delia, you were suffering a mental health crisis. And if all of this stuff that you put out there was not accurate, you were making up interviews that never actually happened. We would be held accountable. There's a whole system in place that would upend this, but there's just so much power that the sheriff's office has, that if I don't know what I'm going to do at the end of the day, they're like, yeah, we see all of this, but we're good. It is what it is. Yeah, like if we don't check our work, we get sued. If law enforcement doesn't check their work, nobody notices unless you are actively trying to check their work. And even if you try and sue them, that hardly ever works out for families, because the law is on their side. Yeah, and to be clear here, I don't want anybody suing to have any sheriff's office. We want them to take what the state attorney advised them and said, will you take another look? Sheriff Potter, it's in your hands, will you take this forward? That's what we want. We don't want anybody. No one going suing anybody. But you're right. There is a point there where that doesn't always work out. So I think for me, unless we get a law enforcement agency to step up and reevaluate John's case or prove that things weren't done with the utmost pursuit of justice in mind, there will never be justice for John and Helen his mom said that everything like you all, all of the listeners are doing. It means so much to her and she's really looking forward to.
CounterClock
"patrick skinner" Discussed on CounterClock
"Writer and Patrick skinner. Upon completion of their interviews, their testimony was consistent with their original stories. I know memories fallible. Did you speak to him on the phone? I think so. What was his name? His name is detective James curdy. James curdy. I'm just out of county sheriff's office. I feel like my wife would know about that too because we were together in May, May of 2016. So that was a before I moved up here. Were you still in Arcadia? I was still in Arcadia. Do you ever remember a detective coming by, reinvestigating this case? I'm drawing a blank. If it was a quick phone call, I feel like I would remember now, just to be clear, I'm not saying James curdy lied in his report about interviewing Patrick. Maybe he did interview him, but I can't find the paper trail that proves that. The fact that Patrick doesn't even recognize James name or speaking with him at all, I think is devastating to the credibility of de Soto county's investigative process in 2016. And ultimately, the entire document James curtie submitted. I'm not here to cast judgment or say what's right or what's wrong, but this glaring discrepancy speaks volumes. I don't know why dcso has moved on from this case with no questions asked. I mentioned in the last episode that their motivation just being that they wanted to get an open homicide case off their books, just doesn't seem like a realistic reason to me. I mean, they still have plenty of unsolved murders in their jurisdiction. Some even date back further than John's. They've got open ended murder cases as far back as the 1980s on their roster. So why clear enclose John's case and not take any credit for it? Again, I think it comes down to a question of confidence. I would argue that the reason we are where we are is because mistakes were made and compounded, and perhaps covered up. Finding a way to conclude my investigation and really wrap my mind around this story has been tough. It's been emotionally draining. But I think where I've ultimately landed is that I believe John was murdered. If you're not convinced of that by now, that's fine. Maybe I'm in the minority here. But regardless of which conclusion you've come to, one thing I know for sure is that a lot of the people who knew John during the 17 years he was alive and the people tasked with finding out how he was killed failed him. For better or for worse, his family's nonstop infighting and their inability to get him to help he might have needed to deal with the behavioral and emotional problems he had, heard him. From everything I've learned about John, from the moment he was born, he was denied a chance at healthy, loving relationships that would have benefited him. And maybe even changed the course of his life. He was a young man with a big imagination and dreams. He liked animals. He liked the outdoors. You know, he talked about going to the coast guard. When he was little, it was so weird, he said, one day he wanted to own a general store, just sell everything, and I asked him, and I said, well, what's it going to be the name of that? He's just white cherries. I said, what? Yeah, white cherries. Don't sell lanterns and pickles and you start even weird stuff. I thought, well, that's good. John's actual family may have been scattered in tattered, but his close friends, people like Patrick skinner, considered him family, and still would, if he was around. I think we would have definitely still been friends. I imagine he would have kids by now..
CounterClock
"patrick skinner" Discussed on CounterClock
"Pat strader's statements to police from day one have always been that she had no idea what ammo went to what guns in her house, or really any knowledge about firearms whatsoever. I don't shoot guns. They can talk about the 44 to 7 millimeter and the Magnum, I don't know what in the world they're talking about a gun is done. I can't tell you what's arrival and what shotgun. She claimed to be completely ignorant of John's interest in guns and was unaware what ammunition he used or why. When they stored the gun in there, did he typically unload it or did he leave it loaded? I don't know. I don't handle that gun so I don't know. Did he normally wear the gun when he went out in the wood? I can't answer you, did he do it over time? Pat didn't know anything about a box of 17 caliber red tip bullets being in Mel senior's pickup truck. And she had no idea where John got them from. He found those somewhere in something. The only thing she remembered was that John asked her about the bullets right before he loaded his revolver and went over to take the trash to the Woods on the day he died. John came to me, I was in the computer room and he said, grandma, where are these any name to mall? And I said, John, I don't know. I said, junior friend is funeral as we had people in the acclaim and I said they'd laugh at this shoved it anywhere. So we went in the kitchen and opened the drawer one round on the corner. He said, here they are. I said, in what kind are those? And I believe it's one of those parts that wouldn't the mushroom out. I said, man, you better be careful of those. So to summarize everything for you to make it a little less confusing. We have Patrick skinner Mack wells and Matt wells all saying they knew 17 caliber ammo was at the straighter home and John became aware of it shortly before his death. But max specifies that John told him he found the ammo in Mel senior's truck and Matt at first said that too, but then later claimed he'd never seen the bullets before. And lastly, we have pad with a completely different story that says John got a hold of some red tip bullets, but they were not in the safe. They were in a kitchen drawer. Here's my point with all of this. There's no doubt there were two identical Ruger revolvers in the mix back in O three that were both capable of being loaded with 17 caliber ammunition. Rounds of that kind of ammo may have been stored in two places in the home. The safe and the kitchen drawer. But in my mind, the only way 6 bullets get in the kitchen drawer is if Matt or someone else put them there after unloading Mel senior's gun. If it was in fact unloaded and stored in the safe like Matt said. If no 17 caliber bullets were ever put in the kitchen drawer, then pat's whole story about John finding them there before he went into the Woods is a lie. Where I'm going with this is that I feel there's a very real possibility that either gun could have been used in John's murder. Why law enforcement didn't consider this scenario in 2003 is something I can't explain. I mean, detectives were told about the two guns. They were told undersized ammo was loaded in each of them, and they knew all of their suspects could have accessed them. Documents in the case files show that after talking to Matt, FDLE agents seized as evidence, the 6 Hornaday bullets that Matt claimed were the rounds he took out of Mel senior's gun. But at no point was the actual firearm seized. It never underwent ballistics tests or a forensic examination. It was never fingerprinted or sent for forensic testing. It was never considered relevant in the investigation. But I think it could be really relevant. So that's why I had to find out what happened to it after the crime. Turns out, it didn't go far. It ended up with skip and our team only found that out after speaking with Carrie, his former fiance. The only guns that I have left of skips, I have in a holster, I believe it's a Ruger, I believe it's a sick shot. And then skips name is engraved on it. Do you have that here? In my storage building. Kerry made that comment when David and I interviewed her at her house. And I think as soon as she said it, she had a realization. I don't know if I should have even brought it up. That's odd. I think I followed up with her after that, and she agreed to take me to her storage unit and look at the gun. But then every time we tried to meet up, it couldn't happen for one reason or another. Then one day, Kerry called and told me that she actually didn't have the gun anymore. She said she'd forgotten to tell me that she sold it in an exchange for a four Wheeler, a few years ago, and it was a cash deal. The irony. Anyway, I wasn't sure what to make of Carey's story about selling the gun and forgetting to tell us. She seemed pretty sure during our initial recording that she still had it in her storage unit, and to be honest, we kind of felt like she had connected the dots about how relevant the gun really was. We felt like she just didn't want to let us see it. But the truth is, I have no idea whether or not Carrie has the gun anymore. If she did sell it in a cash deal in order to buy a four Wheeler, like she said, then, so be it. That sale likely wasn't conducted through the proper channels. So finding a record of who purchased it from her is slim to none. I also can't look up the serial number for it because when police wrote it down in their reports, they incorrectly missed a digit, so I have no way of tracing it. The good news is that the firearm itself is pretty unique. It's an old model 6 shot single action Ruger revolver. That's engraved with Melvin Eugene straighters name. I'd say that's kind of distinct. So whoever has that gun now, if you're out there listening, please contact me. That firearm could be of extreme importance to this case. I'm not saying ballistics tests would confirm conclusively. It was involved in John's murder, but maybe just maybe DNA analysis could be done on it, even this many years later. I know that seems like a long shot, but it's not impossible. DNA labs international confirmed that the testing they're doing now to retrieve small samples of DNA from firearms is the best it's ever been. How long an item is sad or possibly been in an unideal environment is not as big of a challenge thanks to advances in technology. So when we're measuring how much DNA is there, we're able to see smaller quantities now. Amplification where we basically make Xerox copies of the DNA, we do that now more locations and with higher efficiency than we previously did. And then also the last part where we're actually generating that DNA profile, those instruments have all been updated and made more sensitive. Even a tough conditions we've gotten DNA from a gun that was recovered from the intercoastal, which if you're not familiar with Florida is like a canal that kind of runs adjacent alongside the coastline. So obviously not ideal circumstances, we were able to get touch DNA off of that gun. I think it been in there. Do you remember I was a week? Yeah. It was in the intercostal for a week in saltwater. But there's definitely technology and we barely need any DNA to get results at this day and age where they needed a lot more back then. So the likelihood of us getting something now is much more likely. What.
CounterClock
"patrick skinner" Discussed on CounterClock
"Of the hundreds of statements uttered in this case, there are two that have caused me to rack my brain every time I think about them. And both came from 16 year old Patrick skinner during the first 48 hours of the investigation. On July 9th, less than a day after John was found. Patrick told detectives that when he picked up John's revolver at the crime scene, he unloaded it and saw that there were 6 unfired rounds inside of the cylinder. This gave him a little bit of comfort because he knew that the absence of an empty casing meant it hadn't been shot. Here's Patrick reiterating that in our recent interview. I pick it up and as a little 22 revolver. I remember pulling up in the wholesaler falling out of it and putting it back together. Did bullets come out? They did. And that's part of my memory that I I didn't think at the time it had been fired based on what fell out in my hand. I still don't know that I ever heard from the detectives whether or not that was, it was fired because I could just had not been fired. So it was a 6 shot, so 6 unfired bullets should have fallen out if it wasn't fired. 5 full bullets. One casing. Should have fallen out if it was fired. Right. And I don't remember seeing an empty casing. It was only after Patrick found out that John had been shot that he realized 6 live rounds being in John's gun didn't make sense. But still, he was sure of what he saw. When pat straighter was interviewed immediately following investigators chat with Patrick, she also remarked that when her and Patrick found John's gun at the scene, they determined based on the rounds inside of it that it had not been fired. Which was one of her reasons for taking it from the scene because she thought the fact that it was still fully loaded meant it likely wasn't involved in John's death. Here's pat during her July 9th, 2003 interview with detective Kim Lewis. I asked him to check to see if there's any if he could tell if there was a what would you say if there's an if there's any empty casings in the gun as if it had been fired? Yes. Yes. Because that was my concern. Yes. And what happened? He had to work with it to get it where he could. And he told me none had been fired. The second statement Patrick made that has always puzzled me, came out during his second interview with investigators. He told detectives that there may have been more than one gun like John's around. It was a short remark but a statement that clearly suggested Patrick knew there was another 22 revolver at the southeast hansel property that looked a lot like John's. For some reason, though, investigators never asked Patrick to elaborate on what he meant by the remark. But I've looked into what he might have been referring to and what I found is pretty jaw dropping. Thanks to a crop of public records that the Florida department of law enforcement took 7 months to turn around for me. I can say with certainty that there were two identical Ruger 6 shot single action revolvers present on the straighter property on the day John died. One was John's and one belonged to his step grandfather, Mel senior, who died of a heart attack in June 2003. For a long time in my investigation, I was forced to read between the lines of documents from DeSoto county sheriff's office that were heavily redacted. I'd seen several references made about a 22 revolver, but because there were so many chunks of text missing, it was hard to know who was talking about this gun. If they were saying it was John's or another firearm or what? So many black lines on the pages made the information muddy and difficult to decipher. But then, FDLE fulfilled my request for special agent Jonathan smith's reports from 2003, and bingo. Everything I needed to see was spelled out clear as crystal in those documents because they were unredacted. What I learned is that there were more than a dozen guns in storage inside the straighter home on July 8th. One of which was a Ruger 22 6 shot revolver that had belonged to Mel senior. There were also roughly ten to 12 rifles and two or three shotguns in the house. According to a statement from skip, all of those guns were kept in a safe in a hallway closet that John did not have access to. Matt, John's older brother had a key to at least 6 locks that secured that safe and skip indicated he had a way in as well. During his two interviews with law enforcement on July 18th and September 5th of 2003, Matt explained more about this safe and went into detail about Mel senior's revolver. A report that details Matt's statements says, quote, the 22 Ruger that John owned was identical to their grandfather Melvin Eugene straighter seniors revolver, which was usually kept on top of the refrigerator as a vermin gun before Melvin strader's senior's death. Matt went on to explain to police that Mel's seniors Ruger was an older model than Johns, and sometime in the four weeks between when Mel senior died, but before John was killed, Matt had taken it upon himself to remove their grandfather's revolver from the top of the refrigerator and put it in the hallway safe. While transferring the gun, Matt said he checked the cylinder and found 6 unfired 17 caliber red tipped Hornaday bullets in it. He told investigators he'd never seen those brand of bullets before, and as a precaution took them out of the gun and put them in a drawer in a safe. But just let me stop right there for a second because when I compared the two statements, Matt gave to police. I found a pretty big contradiction. When Matt first spoke with FDLE and DeSoto county sheriff's office in July of O three, he stated that he knew his grandfather kept a box of 17 caliber red tipped Hornaday ammunition. He specifically told investigators that those bullets had traditionally been stored in a glove box of the diesel truck that Mel drove when he was alive. But in Matt's second statement, taken two months later, Matt stated he'd never seen those kinds of bullets before. So why did he go from admitting he knew about them and where they were stored to denying their existence altogether? The origin of where the 17 caliber undersized ammunition came from is something I wanted to pin down because Matt going back and forth about that specific detail seems odd. I don't know for sure when those bullets came into the picture for all I know, Mel senior could have bought them months before he died, but what I do know is that Matt saying he never knew about them during his second interview with police, is just not true. Mack wells knew his sons knew about those bullets..
CounterClock
"patrick skinner" Discussed on CounterClock
"This is episode 14 statistics. When it comes to recreating a crime scene, there are guidelines on what to consider and what not to consider. Someone who knows that without a doubt is Erin brudenell, the forensic firearms expert and crime scene analyst who we hired to evaluate the John wells case. There's a phrase we have in reconstruction circles. It's called the limited universe. It's like a filter. You're building a giant filter with all the facts that you can assemble from the case to help sort out what's possible from what's not possible. What's likely from what's not like and try to compare scenarios. But what you never get at the end of this is, oh yes, this is exactly what happened. When Erin and I first went over the facts known about John's crime scene, the scenarios of what could have happened to him based on the evidence seemed pretty straightforward. Aaron conducted tests to rule out suicide. Then he looked at whether John's revolve or had the capability of firing. If its safety features were overwhelmed, which he proved with a high degree of certainty was not possible. Finally, Aaron evaluated scenarios that pointed to murder, but not murder by a total stranger. Martyr by someone present at the southeast tantal property that day. Someone who made sense in the limited universe of the case. You can never rule out this hypothetical possibility of some unknown shooter, came in, fired a shot, but we tend to disregard that because we're using the limited universe of what we have available. The facts that point to John being a victim of a homicide are as follows. One. The shot that killed him came from several feet away. Two. It's statistically impossible for John's revolver to have gone off accidentally. And three, his body somehow got from the four Wheeler to a watery ditch roughly 40 feet away. For Erin and Kent harshbarger, the forensic pathologist who I also consulted for this show. Those three factors support John's death being a homicide. So I think in the very beginning they were going down this pathway is, this is an accident. Knowing the weapon part, now that that's brought to my attention, I don't see how you can call it an accident. When I confirmed through case documents and transcripts that another 22 Ruger revolver, just like John's was accessible at the southeast hansel property the day of the crime, that changed things for Aaron brunel. For him, it widened the scope of the limited universe in the case. Meaning, in order to be thorough, Aaron believes authorities should have evaluated Mel senior's gun as an important piece of evidence just as much as they considered John's revolver. In this case, because you have another God that apparently does have the older lack of safety features and potentially even some kind of family significance that makes it more valuable to the family. And you also have that when you say there's an 18 hour period where the gun was taken and no one over was or no one whatever. That stuff enters the limited universe just fine. Aaron says the existence of the other 22 single action 6 shot revolver opens up another possible scenario for consideration. He suggested that perhaps John was actually carrying his grandfather's revolver in the Woods on July 8th, and it was that gun that went off by accident. But then when suspects in the case discovered that gun and John's body by the four Wheeler, they manipulated the scene to remove Mel's gun and swap in John's for some reason. What if he had that gun? What if that was the gun he had there? And that was the whole reason it went off. That's a whole lot easier to reproduce. You're not having to overwhelm safety features with massive force or exotic circumstances. And since they take the gun away, maybe they just like, well, this is the family heirloom. Let's just say it was this gun instead. I mean, it could be as simple as that, which would want to explain the accident a lot easier. And then you have at least some kind of post scene manipulation. Maybe even innocently. Well, we know this gun is going to get taken by the police. Let's give them his gun since it doesn't have any engraving on it or something. That's not a family heirloom. I don't know. That's one of many possibilities. It's not an absurd scenario to think that maybe that was the gun he was carrying. That's why it went off by accident. And it was substituted for other reasons. Now, I know what you're thinking. That scenario is kind of wild, and really speculative, and you're absolutely right. There's no proof that's what happened. But it is a scenario you have to consider in the limited universe of what we now know in light of Mel senior's revolver, being in the mix as a potential alternate weapon. I'll be honest with you, though. I'm not 100% convinced that's what happened. However, because Mel senior's gun was never processed as evidence, will never know if it was fired that day as the actual murder weapon, or if it was discharged as a result of an accident and then covered up. Let's just say for a minute, though, that Mel seniors revolver was the actual murder weapon. That means John's revolver was a plant, and if Patrick skinner is right, then just like he's always claimed, John's gun was fully loaded when he found it. But at some point between the evening of July 8th and mid morning on July 9th, someone realized that in order for police to believe that John's gun was the gun that fired the bullet that killed him, there needed to be a spent casing in the cylinder. So someone took the spent 17 caliber shell casing out of Mel senior's gun and put it into John's revolver before handing John's revolver over to law enforcement. Again, let me be clear that's just a scenario to consider. It's not a theory police ever looked into, but it's one that the evidence could support. And even though it's a bit conspiratorial, Patrick admits it's a viable theory that would explain a lot. They come out of my possession into their possession, okay? Obviously they were very careful not to touch any part of the gun. Even though it was in a holster to not have anyone with my fingerprints that's just weird. Patrick's fingerprint being the only print on John's gun is kind of weird when you look at the grand scheme of things. This is a point I've made once before this season. If you consider D.C. essos current theory that it was John's revolver that went off, you'd at least expect to find his fingerprints on the gun along with Patrick's. So why was Patrick's fingerprint the only print on it? Why did DNA labs international not find a shred of John's DNA on the gun when they processed it in 2010? Then it hit me. It might not have been cleaned intentionally by the killer to remove evidence at all. It might have been clean all along. Just follow me here. I know for a fact that John was meticulous about cleaning and wiping down his revolver. There are multiple people who corroborate that, including Patrick skinner. John took care of his things, especially as knives as guns. He was actually a cling freak in some ways when it comes to that stuff. And Beth flowers. Beth told detectives during her July 2003.
CounterClock
"patrick skinner" Discussed on CounterClock
"You know, I was all in. I'm still in. Despite the painful and confusing emotions, Helen experienced in that meeting with James and Kim. She left unconvinced that DCS O's theory was right. Do you think that the sets of facts that they claim are in any way possible? No. No. No. No. And I'm not going by anything, but the evidence, the scientific evidence and the crap that they gave to me from the sheriff's office and the fact that they don't look at the details. Why is the belt off the holster? Why is the knee tie off the holster? Why are there three pieces of a holster instead of it all put together? And the gun in the dirt. They're saying a bunch of stuff in there indicating that Matt, his daddy said that John wrote around that gun cocked. I don't know how big a pile of bull that can be. But it's pretty big. She struggles with reckoning how doctor Vega came to his conclusions despite two prior medical examiners ruling John's death, a homicide. I am furious. It's an insult. If I was doctor Anderson and spent oh my God, I've become for his license or saying, what did you get paid? What did you get out of this? It wasn't until I contacted Patrick skinner and Beth flowers for interviews and told them about the relabeling of John's case that they found out he was no longer considered a murder victim. I was just figuring unsolved.
CounterClock
"patrick skinner" Discussed on CounterClock
"She took it a step further. We came home one day, and we had contractors there that were doing ceiling work. We came in and our whole house, the whole inside shell was covered with flyers, and buttons, and paperwork on the murder of John and I looked up and skipped said, well, I said, what is this? And he said, well, obviously Helen's been here and all down old bay shore on every tree there were flyers, nailed to every tree. And I asked the contractors, I said, where did this come from? And they said, some woman came up in here and said that skip had murdered her son. And I just hit the roof. Carrie and skip never retaliated against Helen, but for months they live knowing full well that she was watching them. Helen says, over time, though, she gave up hounding skip. They had lawyered up, nobody was talking, and nobody was getting anywhere. And she's right. On multiple occasions in 2003 and 2004, both skip and pat had declined law enforcement's offer to take polygraphs. Each of them had hired attorneys and they were no longer cooperating fully with police. They, along with Patrick skinner, had already given FDL either fingerprints and saliva samples, and they felt they had nothing else to offer. The only thing police could do was keep waiting for DNA testing results to come in on items of evidence they'd sent off in the fall of 2003. Authorities hope was that something from those results would confirm their suspicions about pat and skip, or point them towards a new avenue of investigation. In November 2004, all of the information police had been waiting for came in. The lab determined that there were traces of John's DNA on the right side fender mud flap of the four Wheeler, and the barrel of his gun. That was no surprise since Tex had already determined from prior blood testing that John's blood was located in those spots. His DNA being in those places was expected. Technicians had also extracted DNA from the buckle of one of John's belts and found it had a mixture of two people's profiles on it. One was John's and one belonged to another person the lab couldn't fully identify. Patrick and skip were definitively ruled out as contributors, but pat couldn't be excluded. But that wasn't necessarily a slam dunk either, because authorities knew that pat had touched John's belt when she handed them over to detectives the day after John's death. The lab also found DNA on the empty Coors light beer can, but there wasn't enough genetic material present to develop a readable profile. No DNA whatsoever showed up on John's thigh strap. What I find odd is that according to FDLE report, text decided not to conduct any DNA analysis on the handle of John's revolver. His other belt, the four Wheeler center console, right clutch handle, foot brake, or engine. The lab also did not do DNA extraction on what I think could be the most important pieces of evidence in the case. The bullets nowhere in the forensic reports could I find documentation that the FDLE lab examined the 5 unfired 17 caliber bullets and the one fired shell casing that law enforcement found in John's gun. Now, to me, that seems like a huge oversight. I'm not saying whoever shot John loaded his gun more than likely John loaded his gun. But I mean, to not even attempt to look for foreign DNA on those pieces of evidence seems outrageous to me. I don't know if this is because FDL just didn't want to test these items or they weren't asked to or they didn't have the technology to, but whatever the reason, it's extremely frustrating to me. And a Soto county sheriff's office was feeling equally as frustrated about the DNA testing results by the end of 2004. Investigators had hit a complete wall in the case, and were at a loss as to how to move forward. On December 6th, 2004, almost a year and a half after John's murder. FDL sent a memo to the Florida lieutenant governor's office, explaining the dire status of the case. It says in part, quote redacted a victim, R prime suspects. Family dispute removal of weapon are factors, but insufficient evidence exists to charge either to this point. Additional interviews with either are not anticipated at this time. No evidence of value to prosecution noted. Bottom line, homicide, not classified as cold case, but leads dwindling. Has proven to be difficult case to solve, particularly in light of limited physical evidence and status of redacted as suspects. Both agencies will do all possible to solve. And that's where the criminal investigation into John's case stayed. For two years, until detectives re interviewed John's older brother. And a simultaneous tip came in in the fall of 2006 that reignited the investigation. But this new information had nothing to do with the people law enforcement had labeled their prime suspects. This information pointed to a person of interest that police had never considered. An acquaintance of Johns, who'd made some startling claims to a girlfriend in the years after the murder. And he goes, ask him about John and the great explorer sir. Ask my abdomen explore. That's on the next episode of counterclock, sketch, listen, right now..
CounterClock
"patrick skinner" Discussed on CounterClock
"Was starting to date skip. An hour after touching base on the phone, David and I drove to Carrie's house to interview her in person. She agreed to speak with me on the condition that I not use her last name. She values her privacy, so I agreed. First things first, I wanted to know how she got connected with skip. There used to be this gorgeous boy that I would see at every horse show. Growing up, I would always look for him at the shows. In his later years, he became a bull rider. And he was so good, he went to Oklahoma. He traveled with it. But he got hurt in Oklahoma and he came back home and he taught bull running for a while. I would see him in the livestock building at the fair every year. Never knew who he was, just knew that I had been watching him for years. Fast forward to fall of 2003 and Carrie and the bull rider she'd been enamored with for years were adults and hit it off. I was at a bar one night shooting pool and skip walked in. Sat down next to me and started talking and I said, I've been watching you for a lot of years and he goes, who are you? Come to find out he knew who my family was. He remembered all the horse shows. Well, we started dating from that 9 on. After about a month of dating, skipping Carrie moved in together at her place on the weekends and skip would be at a farm property that his late father owned on bay shore road in north Fort Myers. Skip spent a lot of time there, cleaning up the dilapidated house and caring for cattle. That property was still going through probate, which meant after Mel senior's death in June of 2003, the courts had not yet decided if it would go to skip or pat as part of Mel senior's estate. It was basically in limbo. Four months after John's death, in October of 2003, Carey got a frantic call from skip about the situation with the base your land. She was telling him that he was having to get out. That she was going to take it over. Skip didn't tell me the reason why she wanted him out of the property here. Up until that point, Carrie assumed growing animosity between skip and pat over the bay shore land was just a result of complicated court wranglings. It wasn't until she got that phone call from skip that she learned the real reason why there was so much tension between her boyfriend and his stepmother. Skip told me the reason she wants me off of the homestead on bay shore is she thinks I'm murdered her grandson. I guess my mouth dropped and I thought, oh, lord. This is way over my head. And I said, well, tell me about it. Kerry learned all of the details of what had really been going on in Arcadia in the summer of 2003, and in skip's life before they'd gotten together. She learned about John's murder and the fact that skip was a prime suspect in the case. And he said, I haven't wanted to tell you this because I didn't want you to leave or think terrible at me or think that I did it. I didn't tell my parents for about four months and skip called me at work one day. And he said, the sheriff's department and Arcadia wants me to come back up. And do a saliva test. Well, I kicked in and I said, absolutely not without attorney telling you either way, do not do that. I'm begging you. Don't do that. Skip didn't take Carey's advice and provided his DNA sample to investigators into Soto county. He told her that he was innocent, and she believed him. He had nothing to hide. That's why when I got involved in it, I said, stop cooperating with them, and he said, I have nothing to hide. I didn't do anything. And then it was, it was on. It was on after that, because I just thought that he was being framed. From what I could tell, Carrey worked some family connections and got skip a lawyer, and that's when things between him and law enforcement came to a screeching halt. To carry, there's no way skip was involved in what happened to John. He was very well liked. He was truthful. Never said a foul, foul thing ever came out of his mouth. Even for all his flaws, he got worried drank. Carey doesn't think skip could be capable of killing another person, and certainly not a teenage boy. Well, the only reason I agreed to do this today is I want to skip name, cleared. He did not have anything to do with this. Nothing. I know it as I breathe and as I walk every day he had nothing to do with this and he has been accused wrongly. I had to press carry on that, though. Since she was so sure her sweetheart was innocent, I wondered if she'd ever had the same questions for skip that police had. Like, why he denied seeing drag marks, but told Patrick skinner, he saw them. And why he'd not done CPR on John, and why he hadn't used his cell phone to call for help the moment he saw John's body in the water. Did you ever ask him why didn't you call 9-1-1? No, there was a conversation. I'm trying to remember. I don't know. I don't have an answer the biggest question I wanted Carrie to answer for me was why skip had helped pat remove evidence from the crime scene. I don't know. I can't honestly say that I don't know. Did skip ever express that he was intimidated by her? Well, I can tell you when I met skip, he was intimidated by her. She did not want authorities to know that he had a gun. Did skip ever talk about whether pat might have done it. Funny you should say that. Now. So it's pretty clear. Carrie is convinced skip didn't kill John, and she doesn't have any reason to believe pat did either. But before we wrapped up our interview, she explained why and dropped a serious bombshell. Skip said, I froze. He said, I didn't know what to do. You're in search of a modern unique bouquet with a 100% happiness guarantee. You need to use urban stems. Urban stems bouquets range in flower variety, so they have things like tulips and roses and really any kind of flour you want. Each delivery includes a personalized note to your recipient, thoughtfully designed packaging and of course a 100% happiness guarantee. Finding the perfect gift to say something special to someone special is easy with urban stems. You can choose a vase at checkout or send a bouquet with a vase already paired with it. What's awesome is that urban stems delivers next day. Nationwide. You can also join the urban stems flower subscription program. It includes free shipping up to 25% in savings and there are three different plans you can choose from. Shop at urban stems dot com and use code counterclock for 15% off your first purchase and free shipping. That's urban stems dot com with code counterclock. For 15% off your first purchase and free shipping..
CounterClock
"patrick skinner" Discussed on CounterClock
"Of the you don't want me getting upset. Helen mentioned in her interviews too that there had always been friction between Matt and John. They always had a rivalry going. It was always a thing was, well, Matt gets to do it, why can't I? During Patrick skinner's 2006 interview with kurd, he'd express the same thing. That portion of the interview tape is fuzzy, but Patrick said, quote, his brother was the one of them that told everything John did. Ratted on him all the time. Got anything he wanted. Kurt asked Patrick point blank if he saw Matt at the southeast tantal property at all on the morning or afternoon of July 8th, 2003, just in case Matt was lying. But Patrick said no, Matt didn't show up until later that night after skip picked him up from school and brought him back to pats. I can't ask Matt for myself because he's declined to do an interview for this podcast. So the only thing I could do was try and check his school records from back in 2003. Staff at South Florida State College did some digging after I emailed them. All they could tell me was that Matt wells was an enrolled student for the summer term in 2003. His school transcript records show that he attended classes from May 7th until July 31st, but due to privacy laws, the school was not able to tell me whether Matt was present or absent for his class on July 8th. So I'm left to trust that what Matt told Kurt in his 2006 interview is in fact the truth. I have to trust him when he said he wasn't in Arcadia and didn't have anything to do with John's murder. At the end of Matt's conversation with kurd, he said, he believed his brother had taken his own life because he was depressed over Mel senior's death. Matt said he didn't know why the evidence didn't point to that, but for him, John choosing to end his life was the truth that Matt had come to believe. A week after questioning Matt, Kurt got a strange phone call from manatee county sheriff's office, a department just a few miles west of Arcadia. A deputy from that neighboring agency told Kurt that a young woman had filed a report with their office regarding domestic violence, and she said that during a heated fight, her boyfriend said, he knew what happened to a teenage boy who was shot in a pasture and de Soto county in July of 2003. That tip set off some bells and whistles for curd. The next day, he sat down to interview the young woman, to.
CounterClock
"patrick skinner" Discussed on CounterClock
"No. As I read through hundreds of pages of reports for this case, I found something that might explain one reason this second autopsy was requested. A short line in Meghan's sim racks investigative report states that in late July, the DeSoto county sheriff Johnny fugate had heard a rumor that John may have been a victim of sexual abuse. She noted that the sheriff's concerns about that rumor were what prompted this unusual request. Doctor Anderson had checked for signs of sexual trauma during John's first autopsy, which is standard procedure, but he didn't find anything that indicated that had ever taken place. So why law enforcement wanted to be extra sure on that? Made no sense to doctor Anderson. I ran this information by Patrick skinner during one of our recent interviews, and he firmly said, John never spoke of being sexually abused. Did you ever know John to express that he had been a victim of sexual abuse or molestation or anything in his family history? No. The definitive no, nothing was ever expressed to me and none of anything that he ever confided in me ever led me to believe anything like that. Regardless of what law enforcement's motivation was in asking for a second autopsy, doctor Spitz conducted one. What he concluded was the same as doctor Anderson. John had not been a victim to any kind of sexual trauma, and without a doubt, his manner of death was homicide. In Spitz's report, he stated, quote. It is my opinion that mister John wells was shot in the head by another person. It is also apparent that following the shooting, mister wells body was dumped in a creek located a short distance from where the shooting occurred. It appears that mister wells was still alive at the time his body was dumped in the water. The day after this second autopsy, the Emmy's office and law enforcement released John's body to John's parents, Helen and Mack. In the weeks between July 8th, and July 25th, Helen had fought hard to have a de Soto county court, grant custody of John's remains to her anthrax husband. As a way of keeping pat from having last rites, and Helen won. John's funeral took place on July 26th at the only funeral home in downtown Arcadia. During the service, Helen's friends and supporters stood on one side of the funeral hall, and pat skip and their friends stood on the other. Also in the mix was Patrick and his mom, Beth flowers, and lots of John's other teenage friends. And last but not least, law enforcement was there. Needless to say, the scene was tense. Helen was watching her mother's every move. The casket was closed at the end of the funeral, but they said when pat came out and she got to that coffin that she broke down and started screaming and oh my God, oh my God, it was such a terrible terrible accident. And I've said this a thousand times. She has kept saying that from the day things hit the fan. It was a horrible, horrible accident. Helen distinctly remembers a conversation the funeral director had with her regarding things he'd seen on John's body. Fred Grady was a long time funeral director, funeral guy. He had his own business, but he was older and it was ponder case and Grady or whatever at some point in time. He knew all of our family members he worked on half of them in the plots and all that stuff. So he said something about that boy put up a fight and he says, what? He says, yeah, he put up a fight, something about marks on his fingers. I can't interview Fred Grady for myself because he passed away many years ago, but I think what he was talking to Helen about had to do with the scratches and abrasions that doctor Anderson had initially observed on John's body. Those marks alone couldn't definitively confirm foul play. But I guess they stood out enough to the mortician that he felt like he needed to mention something to Helen. By the end of July, John was in the ground and to settle county sheriff's office, had to accept that they had a true whodunnit murder on their hands. Two forensic pathologists had confirmed John died as a result of a homicide. But investigators had no way of proving how it had happened or who was responsible. At least not yet. Within a matter of weeks, forensic results from the FDLE lab started coming in, and what they revealed, nothing is what it seems. Is coming up on the next episode of counterclock. Did you find it odd that John fingerprints weren't on that gun? Absolutely. Listen to episode 7, sweetheart. Right now..
CounterClock
"patrick skinner" Discussed on CounterClock
"He said something, you're not welcome at the funeral, whatever, and I said something like, do I look like I'm going to a funeral? I said, I'm not going to the funeral. I said he just doesn't belong there. And then you can tell he wanted to fight, and it wasn't going to go anywhere. So I got my truck and left. And as I did, he drew a fit and there's a stop sign right there. He was hitting the stop sign and stuff and I came to the house. So John was mad at you the last time you guys talked. About Mel, do you remember the last words he said to you? It was something, you know, I think when he said, come on, you want a piece of me and started like, he wanted to fight. And I think I said, what's wrong with you because I described him and you didn't have any glasses or sunglasses or or nothing? And I remember his eye, he just had like pin, the iris, not the IRS, the people, was like the size of a pen, you know? Coke, and when he had taken his shirt off, you know, if you don't bathe him a couple days, you have that Sheen and that oiliness and it wasn't like him 'cause he was a clean kid. And I said, who the are you? What's wrong with you? And you know, I think it just made him more angry because I'm not in my mind, his face is my son, but his actions and he would never talk to me that way 'cause I never allow that. It just did not ever happen. If they did, it was behind my back. He did not do that to me. I did some digging to figure out if John had gotten into any trouble or had a rap sheet related to drug use during the summer of 2003. And turns out he did. A very, very small rap sheet. According to police reports I found with the Charlotte county sheriff's office, a jurisdiction that neighbors de Soto county. John was picked up for misdemeanor marijuana possession on May 4th, 2003, and released the same day. The incident occurred during a traffic stop three days after his 17th birthday. The arresting agency doesn't have any paperwork still available about the arrest, but from what I gathered based on the booking sheet in court records, it appears John didn't serve any time for this, and it was pretty much dropped. But I think that's because by the time it rolled around onto a court docket, John was already dead. The record his arrest generated, though, was definitely something de Soto county authorities investigating his murder paid attention to. They wanted to drill down on his possible drug history as one avenue of investigation. And the people they needed to talk to were not his tight lipped grandmother and step uncle. The people detectives needed to speak with were John's friends. Specifically, one friend. Patrick skinner Patrick was not only an insider into John's life and habits, but he was also a witness who investigators knew had been at the original crime scene with pat and skip. And it was Patrick, who authorities hoped would tell them everything they wanted to know about the dynamics between grandma, grandson, and step uncle. I do know he wanted to get out. Of Arcadia? Not out of Arcadia specifically out of the House he was living in. That's coming up in episode four skinner. Listen, right now..
CounterClock
"patrick skinner" Discussed on CounterClock
"Oh, he took his pistol with him. Pat straighter told a de Soto county emergency dispatcher that 17 year old John owned a gun and he took it with him when he went to dump the trash. My point here is that if investigators had keyed in on this small detail from the 9-1-1 call from the jump, they might not have misjudged the crime scene so much. To give them the benefit of the doubt, though, even doctor Anderson says John didn't have any obvious signs of being a gunshot victim. And unless you knew the autopsy findings, no one could have known he'd been shot. Anyway, the first thing to settle county sheriff's office chief deputy Bill wise and sheriff Johnny fugate chose to do in order to reconcile Hal John could have been shot in the Woods, was to take a trip back to grandma's house and speak with pat. When she answered, the sheriff asked her point blank if she and skip John step uncle had noticed or found a gun near the trash pile and four Wheeler when they discovered John in the ditch the day before. Her answer was yes. According to police reports, pat told authorities that she and her stepson skip along with a teenage boy from down the street named Patrick skinner, who was friends with John, had all three found John dead. She said when they made the discovery, they also saw John's Ruger 22 Magnum single action 6 shot revolver, laying in the sand near the four Wheeler. She said they also found a belt, a nylon holster, and an olive green colored thigh strap for a firearm, scattered between where the ATV was parked and where they ultimately found John in the water. Paddock explained to the sheriff that she'd purposely removed the gun, holster belt, and strapped from the scene before police arrived, because she was afraid that she would get in trouble for allowing John, who was underage to carry a firearm. At the time, she said she didn't think it had anything to do with him drowning. She emphasized that she thought he'd been stung by bees and gone to the water to get away from them. A sentiment you repeatedly hear her mention in the 9-1-1 call. I believe he might have gotten some answer a wall for something stung in. To me, I'm a description of this fan. If there were beans or something after him, he would have been in there and been over here honestly. Pat was John's legal guardian who still had ongoing legal issues with Helen. She said it wouldn't bode well for her to be the responsible adult who led a teen carry a gun alone in the Woods. At that point, law enforcement wasn't sure what to make of her story. They told pat straight up that John had been shot and explained why what she had done not only made her skip and Patrick looked bad, but technically they'd interfered in a murder investigation. Pat's reaction to that was to hand over everything to police and agree to come to the station for a sit down interview. The story that followed is one investigators had to navigate carefully. Now I don't remember in here exactly, but Patrick found the gun. Laying right beside the four Wheeler. He said, that's unusual. He picked up that gun because pat told him to. Pick up the gun and see if it's been shot. That's coming up in episode three. Story. Listen, right now..
CounterClock
"patrick skinner" Discussed on CounterClock
"Formal. You're in search of a modern unique bouquet with a 100% happiness guarantee, you need to use urban stems. Urban stems bouquets range in flower variety, so they have things like tulips and roses and really any kind of flour you want. Each delivery includes a personalized note to your recipient, thoughtfully designed packaging and of course a 100% happiness guarantee. Finding the perfect gift to say something special to someone special is easy with urban stems. You can choose a vase at checkout or send a bouquet with a vase already paired with it. What's awesome is that urban stems delivers next day. Nationwide. You can also join the urban stems flower subscription program. It includes free shipping up to 25% in savings and there are three different plans you can choose from. Shop at urban stems dot com and use code counterclock for 15% off your first purchase and free shipping that's urban stems dot com with code counterclock. For 15% off your first purchase and free shipping. 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Go to daily harvest dot com slash counterclock to get up to $40 off your first box. That's daily harvest dot com slash counterclock for up to $40 off your first box. Daily harvest dot com slash counterclock. Mister Schrader, I'm going to remind you that you are under oath. Yes, you understand what mercury is. And that you had torn still if you were a firm, you still do so. Skip went on to tell detectives that after watching John ride off, he went inside pat's house. Sat in a recliner, watched a soap opera and dozed off. When he stirred awake, he noticed that it was one 30, and John was still not back from taking the trash. Skip said he was concerned about John, so he got in his Ford diesel pickup truck, rode through the pasture and over to the trash pile to look for him. When he arrived, he said he saw John's four Wheeler backed up to the trash pile with the trailer still attached to the rear of it. But John was nowhere in sight. That's when skip said he started yelling John's name. And how he became self fragmented with respect for long as the past. But another $200. Load the home truck off or take a year and no time you never parked the car and got out. I stopped the truck. He was going to never got out of the truck. After getting no reply from John and not seeing him at all, skip went back to the house and told pat, he couldn't find the boy. Pat replied to skip, saying that when she got a chance, she'd go look for him. But at that point, there was no sense of urgency. Pat made her and skip a sandwich, they ate lunch, and afterwards, pat mentioned she was going to the pasture to find John. Skip said, she left around two 15 p.m., 45 minutes after skip made the first trip to search for John. About a half hour later, she returned, called Patrick skinner, left to get gas and to go pick Patrick up. By three 45 p.m., skip said everyone started to get really worried. Once Patrick arrived in his car, the group split up to search again. Skip said he told the others that he would walk the past year by foot, starting at the sawmill, and go all the way to the trash pile while they drove in pat's explorer. After about a half hour of walking, skip said he arrived to the trash pile and saw Patrick holding John's revolver belt and holster. Everyone was hollering for John, and within a few minutes of arriving, Patrick pointed out John's body in the ditch water. And that's when they all three left to call 9-1-1 and took the gun and the other items they'd found with them. Skip's first interview on July 9th covered the basic highlights of his version of events, and like I said, it lasted less than an hour, and he didn't get into the nitty Gritty details. But the next morning, Thursday, July 10th, the sheriff's office called skip and Patrick back in for second interviews, and authorities held nothing back. Now I want to know what opinion you have. Because I think you're hiding something from me. I think you're hiding a whole lot from me there, mister. Detectives wanted to know specific details from Patrick and skip about who found what at the initial scene. And what exactly the group did with those items after they discovered John. To settle county detective Kurt maze, an FDLE special agent John Smith, interviewed Patrick. What were you saying about the holster? I know that's the whole story we found. Immediately afterwards, Kim Lewis and special agent Smith interviewed skip. There was a lot of a cowboy belt. And it was like a green, I guess, very luck what you call a leg strap or something, but there was also a third belt. The big belt that he normally wore every day. Or Bella can you talk about when you say cowboy belt? Right. Investigators needed to get clarification on one thing right off the bat. And that was how many belts had been found at the crime scene. According to pat's previous statements, she said there were two belts, a holster, and a strap at the scene. One belt had wildlife scenery depicted on it, and the other had a bunch of Dixie flags embroidered on it. Both were size 28, John's size. When pat handed over the gun, holster, thigh strap, and two belts to the sheriff on July 9th, she said all of that stuff was from the original scene. What puzzled investigators on July 10th was the fact that both Patrick and skip said they only saw one belt at the scene. So was pat mistaken and had just given police two belts from her house that she knew were Johns, but only one was really at the crime scene. My question is, why would John have had two belts on and while riding a four Wheeler in the Woods at all? I know from his autopsy report that he didn't have a belt in his pants when he was fished out of the water. So, if pat's correct, that would mean he was out there with two belts sitting loosely around his waist for no reason, which just seems strange to me. What I think probably would have helped clear this issue up would have been to bring pad in for a second interview on July 10th. But for some reason, investigators didn't ask her to come back that day. They only wanted to interrogate Patrick and skip. Patrick's story during his second sit down was exactly the same as what he'd said on July 9th, but this time he went into a little more detail. He'd had roughly 48 hours to process everything he'd been through, and he didn't shy away from expressing that it felt odd to find John's gun, holster, belt, and thigh strap, and almost.
CounterClock
"patrick skinner" Discussed on CounterClock
"Stridor is that correct? For 40 minutes on the day after John was found dead, de Soto county sheriff's office detective Kim Lewis recorded an official interview with pat straighter. His grandma. And Kim wanted pat to know that investigators were taking this conversation very seriously. Do you understand the meaning of the word perjury? Yes. Perjury is lying under oath. In the state of Florida, if you are found to have committed perjury, you can be criminally charged with that. Do you understand that? The audio quality of these tapes is fuzzy in some parts because they were done on actual cassettes, but for the most part, you can hear the exchange clearly. Through some digitizing and post production magic, the team has tried to make them as audible as possible. Now normally, a sit down interrogation like this between a detective and a potential suspect would be colder, pretty impersonal. But here's the thing pat and Kim knew one another. Pat had seen Kim grow up and they knew each other's family members. In fact, pat knew most of the law enforcement officers working her grandson's case. And I definitely picked up on pat's casual demeanor from the start of the conversation. Can you swear or affirm the information to provide the statement will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Kim is going to be the best of my recollection. The main reason the sheriff's office wanted to talk with pat was because he was one of three people who'd found yawn in the Woods. She'd made the 9-1-1 call. She was his legal guardian. And on top of that, she admitted to removing critical pieces of evidence from the crime scene prior to law enforcement arriving. If there ever was a checklist on why to question someone in a homicide, I'd say she fit the bill. Authorities needed to get the story straight about what went down before they'd arrived on scene. They were behind 24 hours with their investigation, and one of their only ways to get the ball rolling was to have pat, her stepson skip, and 16 year old Patrick skinner tell them what they each remembered about the last time John was accounted for at the southeast hansel property. All three of those individuals were questioned on July 9th, but in this episode we're going to focus on pat's interview first. I have no actual knowledge that I could say that what time did he went over? To go across the road, just going by what skip said. It should have been somewhere around 12 or 1230. Give came into the house. And I again, we think it was approximately one or one 30 when you did you know John's not back, because I may be a better go check on him. According to pat, she and skip had that conversation around one 30 p.m.. Pat told Kim that skip then drove over into the pasture and Woods to look for John. He went over there and you didn't find him. He drove down the tree line. And he said since he's in the diesel, he stopped and turned to Motorola in general so that he could hear, you know, he called him again. No answer. And he just figured he was walking around out there in the pasture. When skip returned, he reportedly told pat that he never saw John while on that first trip. He came back to the house and not fixed the sandwich. We ate, and then this time now we're thinking it's two, two 30. So I think I finished with my family. We're talking and explore and I go over there and possibly retract his same because I could see where this vehicle goes through the pasture. And when I got down to before Wheeler, I, myself, saw that this destiny steel Sydney had nothing to be done. And as I told you with the cataracts, now I'm looking up, I'm not looking down at my feet, you know, I'm looking out in the pasture for him to see him walking, you know, why would he be not at the four Wheeler, and I panicle scream, couple of times, you know, John John whale, John Robert whale, and no man. So I want to get back in like floor and do the same skip because the tree line stop and call again. Pat's recollection was that her trek to go look for John occurred between two 30 p.m. and 3 p.m., and her journey had also been fruitless because John never answered and never showed up at the house. And just a reminder here, we're talking about a distance of half a mile to approximately three quarters of a mile between where the trash pile was located and the front door of pat's house. In between those locations is a lot of thick vegetation and fields. Because she'd gotten nowhere on her trip around 3 o'clock pat said she went back home and used her landline to call John's best friend Patrick skinner, who lived a few houses down the street. Patrick was 16, just one year younger than John. After Patrick, I can't find John. I'm asking I'm concerned. I say, will you go over with me? Do you know how he, when y'all go over there, kind of where you would go? He said, yes, how will I get there? And I said, well, I've got to go get some gas. And I said, I'll stop by all the way back, pick you up. According to her statement to police, pat then drove to a nearby Murphy gas station at the Arcadia Walmart and back. Between approximately quarter after three and three 30, she stopped at Patrick's house in his driveway. I blew the horn and he didn't come out. So I went on home and I called him back and he says, I'm walking out the door right now. He says having to get dressed. So when you drove into the yard, I just waited for me at an explorer and I had my head three little two way radios and I know then I had binoculars. With that gear in tow, pat said she and Patrick set out in her explorer to go check the past year again for any sign of John. They took a more direct path to the trash dump area where the four Wheeler was. Skip had decided to walk the Woods on foot and take a longer route along Joshua creek. He'd followed the tree line through some watery ditches that led in the direction of the trash pile. On our way back to saint the same route that I had been before and went back to the fore whaler, called John, and I walked through down through the creek, as you can see, and how they began. Once they were at the trash dump, pat said Patrick walked over to the front of John's backed in four Wheeler and made a strange discovery. Now I don't remember in here exactly, but Patrick found the gun. Laying right beside the four Wheeler. He said that's unusual. He should John wouldn't put that in the dirt. He said it was kind of like, I believe is the words he uses, but buried, you know, like he didn't hit it.
WTOP
"patrick skinner" Discussed on WTOP
"We're learning more about a deadly shooting and of fire in Baltimore County That happened on Saturday is around 6 30 in the morning when police and firefighters were called to a townhouse community and woodland, where they encountered an armed man and he was shot dead. He's identified his 56 year old Everton. Brown also found dead at the scene. Two men and a woman, third person Neighbor, Gale. Watts tells The Associated Press that she heard an explosion and soon after her gunfire and some people running for cover, She says Brown has been aggressive toward neighbors in the past and wasn't her words paranoid to town, homes collapsed and the third was damaged by the fire. What do police officers think about all the negative attention focused on them. And this week's edition of Colors a dialogue on race in America with Chris Core and JJ Green. Patrick Skinner of former CIA officer now a beat cop in Savannah, Georgia, says he had to learn to take the attention to inappropriate police behavior. Personally, I wouldn't take the slings and arrows personally would be called terrible things. That's great on Ben. When there was out, you know, police abuse or police crime people would associate me with that. And I get that I do get that. I just wouldn't take it personally, because I thought that was the way I could just keep doing my job and never get defensive. And then after the show, Vin verdict, I mean the whole murder. I mean, it's on video, and you're watching it And there's cops standing there. And then there was this reflexive circle the wagons. You know, he may have done something wrong. Then I realized no, I need to take this personally. You can hear more of the conversation on episode 48 of Colors on Apple Podcast Podcast one spot of fire Wherever you get your podcasts, it's 4 13 a w t o p. We're learning more after several people were rescued from the Chesapeake Bay after two boats collided, one capsized and three people were pulled from the water south of the Bay Bridge on Thursday. Ah police diver rescued 1/4 voter from beneath the capsized boat, NBC four reports. Natural resource is police Officer Bryan Hunt went into the water even though he didn't have a wet suit at the time. You found the man in a small air pocket and pulled him out from under the boat and pulled him to safely It is 4 13 it w t o p sports just ahead. Excuse me. How much is a big gulp? A 7 11. A big gulp drink is only 79. Cents, with seven rewards, Even the new lemonade and energy drink flavors. Yep. 79 cents. What about premiums? Sparkling waters. Same price. What if I make Steffy flavor into one cup banned for life? Really? No, I'm just messing still 79 cents..
WTOP
"patrick skinner" Discussed on WTOP
"New Man is under arrest this afternoon in an armed robbery and Carjacking today in Laurel about 10 30 this morning Laurel Police responded to the 80 anti store on Route one for a report of a robbery in progress. They say the suspect who was still inside the business, ran out the back door and carjacked a driver Gunpoint. Police say he crashed at the intersection of Cherry Lane and One he tried to run off again, but he was tackled by police to other people involved in the crash were taken to the hospital. That suspect has not yet been identified. Ah, lot of people have called for the de funding of police departments after numerous killings of black and brown people on this week's edition of Colors, a dialogue on race in America with JJ Green and Chris Core. They spoke with Patrick Skinner. White beat cop in Savannah, Georgia. Skinner says police should not be called out for every problem. It's so weird that we're 911 Nation. When we say if you see anything that makes you uncomfortable call 911. And one that's crazy. I mean, I get it because it's the most. It's the most liability free slogan, but it is a terrible way to run a society. There's a homeless guy or guy on the ground over here, and I'm gonna call 911 instead of going over literally saying, Hey, are you okay? And I get why they do that? Because we're 911 Nation. But when you do that, that means the cops are coming, and that shouldn't be a bad thing. But it's probably not the most appropriate thing. Skinner. Thanks a lot of other people like social workers and crisis specialists should be brought in. By the way you can hear more of this conversation on episode 48 of Colors on Apple podcast podcast one Spotify or wherever you get those podcasts up Next in money news why a local beer is named after the ruler's sister. I'm Jeff label 5 24. Breaking up is hard to do. Just when you think you're ready to leave. You talk yourself back into stay. And when it comes to your wireless carrier, you know you should have left a while ago..