20 Episode results for "Pat Brown"

Impossible Foods: Pat Brown

How I Built This

1:04:18 hr | 4 months ago

Impossible Foods: Pat Brown

"Hey It's guy here and before we start the show a wanted to let you know about a short anonymous survey that you can take to let us know what shows and podcasts. You're listening to if you want to help you can go to. Npr DOT org slash. Podcast survey it won't take up too much of your time and this is a great way to support your favorite shows that's NPR dot org slash podcast survey and thanks. We had half the company basically was to some extent going out to soybean farms for the better part of a year and it was in retrospect about idea. But this is the kind of thing you have to do. You have to be not afraid to you know. Try things that may fail. Yeah I can tell you for certain. We are going to have more expensive failures in the future. And if we're afraid but we shouldn't be trying to do this from NPR. It's how I built this show about. Innovators entrepreneurs idealists and the stories behind the movements. They built on the show today. How Pat Brown's mission to slow climate change led him to lodge impossible foods and to invent a plant-based based bird tastes and even bleeds like beef along the one zero one freeway in San Francisco. Our tons of billboards advertise startups. That can deliver cannabis to your home faster their ads for enterprise software to help you manage projects and even a company that has robots to prepare your made to order pizza company by the way raised three hundred and seventy five million dollars before it went bust and recently yet another media company was launched one that raised more than a billion dollars with the goal of bringing. Us Ten minute video clips. Now I have no problem with any of these businesses and I wish them well but every once in a while. When I'm strolling through San Francisco I think about how much brainpower in the tech sector is spent on scaling lifestyle and productivity products and how little is spent trying to solve world scale problems now. There are a few notable exceptions. Of course say what you will about his quirky personality. But you on. Musk is one hundred percent. Committed to ending human dependency on fossil fuels. And he's trying to do it at scale. Another exception is my guest today at Brown when pat set out to start a business. He didn't just want to solve a problem. He had or make a better and more efficient product. He literally wanted to change the world from most of his career. Pat was a biochemist Stanford he was even involved in groundbreaking genetic research but around fifteen years ago. He heard a statistic that floored him. Worldwide Agriculture and Forestry and particularly livestock production is responsible for more greenhouse gas emissions than all emissions from transportation all the emissions from cars planes ships and trucks combined our love of beef and poultry and lamb and pork is one of the biggest drivers of climate change in the world. And I'm as guilty as you are because I eat those things to anyway. All this got pat thinking could there be a way to stop producing meat from animals away to meet that would taste as good as animal meat but require considerably less water and waste and he knew from his biochemistry background that in theory it was possible that you could do it from plants so in. Pat set out to make meat from plants. He wanted to make beef that beef. Lovers would love beef that looked and smelled and even bled like beef. Even though it didn't come from a cow and short he wanted to make plant that was indistinguishable from animal means with the hope that if more animal lovers could come to love plant meet greenhouse gas emissions would go way down and the story of how pat built would came to be known as the impossible. Burger is amazing. Not just for how he and his team figured out the science of it all but also because pat set out to do this. He was almost sixty years old and he walked away from an incredibly successful career to take a huge risk. And now just a few years later. The impossible burger is in fast food restaurants across the country and pads company. Impossible foods has been valued at four billion dollars. Now these days during the lockdown like so many of us pat is not going into the office. I'm sitting in a room that was originally where my three kids shared a bedroom and most recently was my youngest son. Isaac's room which is Usurped as my office. And that's where you're running impossible foods out of March. Yeah later in the episode. We're going to hear a bit more. About how the pandemic has affected pats business but let's start at the beginning when he was growing up. Which kind of happened all over the place? My Dad worked for the CIA. I didn't realize it until I was quite a bit older and His job segment of various overseas posts So we lived in Paris for four years That's where I started school and then came back to the states and then he was sent to Taipei. Was he a spy or was he more of of a desk? He was an intelligence officer. I guess you could say and Was Gathering intelligence on mainland China and ran various operations but he never did any. You know sketchy bad business. So he is a Swedish most altruistic guy. Who's like the opposite of what you if you have this notion of you know the CIA and spies being very unethical characters is dead opposite of that so when when you were a kid. What did you think Your Dad did? Well I it's embarrassing in a way. I mean he would just say you know when I asked him what he did. You say you know I worked for the government and I thought okay that makes sense with the government. I only found out what Israel job was when one of my good buddy's somehow mentioned that his dad worked for the CIA. And I thought well that's kind of weird. Because he he works for my dad anyway and you got a pretty big family. Right six siblings. Yeah Pretty Well. I have to see him. This is the answer is yes. Were you a pretty good student as a as a kid. I was actually not a pretty good soon. As we came back to the states I felt like I just done sent back a grade and I just became very disengage because I thought it was kind of like why am I wasting my time and I was a chronic cutter of classes and I mean when I was in Taiwan we. My classes were in a three story building. That had this kind of Concrete girl work on on the one side of the building. So one thing I would sometimes do would be just randomly. Walk out of class and go climb on this. It was like a climbing wall. I in retrospect I just feel like it's amazing. Kick me out but you must have been a good enough student because you went you go onto the University of Chicago which is pretty hard school to get into Well I mean first of all the a lot of people realize back in the day I think getting into college was much less competitive but I had could sat's so I think that that made up from my grades to some extent but Yeah I mean it was just lucky that I grew up at a time where you could be a less dedicated student. Still get into a good college when you got to University of Chicago. Was it clear to you that science was going to be the thing that you would do in life. Was that already just a given as far as you are concerned. I think I was kind of open to a lot of things when I was in college but I tend to gravitate toward science and math. I mean there was a period of time and I thought I actually might. I loved math. I loved sort of higher level math classes in college but I felt like I wanted to do something that made the world better and I didn't think it would be a satisfying for me in the in the sense of feeling like I was contributing. Something curious about something that that happened when you were in college or like right as you graduated from College. Which was you you. Eight year last progress you became a vegetarian and one thousand. Seventy six Which was kind of a hippie thing to do in nineteen twenty one like was not? That common was not a hippie. I mean so really what. It came down to was an entrepreneur. Fraction of kids at some point in their lives. Try to become vegetarian. Tried to stop eating meat right primarily because of Discomfort with the ethics of it and in my family that was true pretty much most my siblings in myself and there was a time when we all sort of in concert decided to stop eating meat. I felt like if if I don't need me to be completely healthy and while nourished then I'm only eating it for aesthetic reasons. There's no physiological reason why need to purely aesthetics and I felt like that was I just couldn't justify the killing in making animals miserable for my pleasure basically as opposed to from and I think that was kind of the way my siblings and my parents felt about it that that was that was why we all just like Bam like a square wave decided to stop eating meat. Well so but when you made this decision you would. You had no idea that one day you would be involved in food or food production. Your you get your bachelor's degree in Chemistry and then you jump into a PhD program in biochemistry at the University of Chicago presumably. You're thinking all right. I'm going to. I'm going to do a lot. My life is going to be about you know working in a lab and and pursuing scientific research. Yeah I mean the direction I was going was So I was an MVP program. And I wanted to go into research to help people by basically understanding human biology and human diseases and and the part was kind related to that. But it's also just a love the idea of discovering things for first time. Yeah so you you did your MD PhD and you actually did residency in pediatrics. During that time right but from what I understand. You didn't go into pediatrics. You eventually landed at Stanford And you went into into basic research thing in fact I think one of the first things you worked on was eight. Virus is is that right. Yeah exactly it was timely and important and it was the reason one of the main reasons I felt like I had to go into biomedical research. Is that as opposed to sane clincal? Massimo's that if you're a clinician you keep coming up against problems that you don't know how to solve and it's just incredibly upsetting you know when you're taking care of sick kid and you just don't know how to help them. Yeah and so I felt like that's much higher leverage if you can work on really hard important medical problems and find solutions you know. Yeah so so pack. Basically from from what I've read had this incredible trajectory you eventually became a young tenured. Professors Stanford critic lab you worked on some DNA micro array which is so complex and could be. Its own podcast episode. We won't be able to go into it now but I mean we worked on all this groundbreaking research that that helps with things like ovarian cancer detection to Gut microbiome. And all these incredible things. I mean this must have just been a dream life for for scientists like you was the job I would have created for myself if I had been able to completely write the specs for the job. You get the joy of discovering things get new idea. You can immediately start working out. I had great colleagues great students it was. I used to say this all the time. It was my dream job so you and I should mention you also co-founded the Public Library of science which is now the open source. Scientific journals out there which caused a lot of 'em bite. We actually talk about this moment. Because when you co-founder this you create a lot of friction. Because the academic publishing world is a for profit industry and they don't want everyone having access to their Papers unless they pay for it You basically Created this new model and had a lot of people saying hey what are you pat? What are you doing here academic? And what are you? What are you wasting your time with publishing? Well I mean that's the way that I saw my job or my purpose. I guess it wasn't defined in terms of some particular scientific problem was working on. You know it's if you see something that you can have a positive impact on I was very fortunate position that I could do it. And it was kind of like understood to be part of my job. In that case I realized that to most of the world if You know for parent gets sick and they want to read the best current medical literature on the subject as many people. Do I mean many people who are not physicians when they have a family member? Who has a medical problem? They'll go and and try to read it. Well you can't you have to pay you know thirty to fifty bucks to read a crappy paper right because especially back then like in the early two. Thousands of many medical journals were behind pay walls. Yeah exactly that infuriated me. And the reason that the public library science the the reason that I and and My co-conspirator Mike is and and my former pushed off mentor. Harold Varmus founded. It was basically as much as anything else to throw a wrench into the business model of scientific publishing. Because it was so perverse anti-social and we felt that if we create a vehicle were scientists could publish free to everyone in the world. Scientists would flock to it and it would pull the rug out from under these conventional publishers and to a considerable extent although the job stores in Don. Unfortunately I mean you see you. You create this academic journal By the way you you had to find funding for it I mean this is an entrepreneurial venture you were a tenured of science professor at Stanford. And you weren't doing this to make money. This was going to be a nonprofit right. That was an open science. An Open Open Source. People could have access to it and this is a pet but must have paint. It was a lot of work to get off the ground. Yeah it was. It was a lot of work but I mean I was so like a lot of these things. If you're doing something because you want to do it doesn't feel like work. Yeah I think that was in two thousand and one when you founded founded. The POLKA CO founded the Public Library Science. And how just just by you know sense of scale? How big is it today? 'cause it's just tons of like plus. Pilo one and there's a bunch of like peel medicine right. I mean how big is it? When when that journal was launched within a couple of years it was by far the highest volume scientific journal in History in terms of publication volume. But the thing I learned was I believed it would be super successful and the lesson I learned is which is something I repeat all the time that Impossible foods you have to bet on your own success if you expect an intense something to be super successful even when it's not you have to make that investment that you're betting on your your growth. It's possible foods the analogy is if we believe we're going to be as successful as we intended and do believe we have to make huge investments in production capacity a couple of years in advance that predicated on the idea that our volume will be ten times greater. You know in a year and a half. Yeah which is You know I think. A lot of companies would regard that as kind of a risky bet and since our mission requires us to on average double in volume every year for the next fifteen years. We're going to have to be making that big bet on our success again again again. And that's something that you know like a lot of Businesses say well. Let's go more slowly but will never achieve our mission if we don't go for it and so you know the lesson again is bet on your own success. Okay so here. You are It's the early two thousands. You have this incredibly impressive career that you forged And you could've continued doing that kind of research and teaching and publishing And then around. I guess two thousand eight. You took a sabbatical which turned into a kind of a detour Can you tell me what the what was the thinking behind that? So I had decided that from my sabbatical that I was going to try to identify the most important problem in the world that I could contribute to solving and it could have been anything but but I was pretty confident that it was going to be something about avoiding environmental catastrophes. Basically and And I was looking at a variety of different things early on it was you know what's the state of research in making more efficient solar energy devices and stuff but relatively quickly. I would say within a month or so. I had zeroed in on what is unquestionably the most important and urgent problem. The world is facing right now and that is the catastrophic environmental impact of our use of animals in the food system. And how did you by the way? How did you know about that? I mean I lots of people know about it but not not everyone knows about it. How did you come to that? Understanding that that agriculture particularly raising livestock was so damaging to the environment. I'm kind of embarrassed that I wasn't aware of have ahead of this. I just I was basically reading about environmental problems. And what are the contributing factors? And so forth. I became aware of the greenhouse gas emissions From the livestock industry which are which are huge their greater than all forms of power transportation combined and because of its huge land footprint. It is responsible for a catastrophic meltdown in global biodiversity and the other thing that relates to land footprint. Is If you could snap your fingers and make that industry go away which I would do in a heartbeat. If I could the recovery of biomass trees and shrubs and grasses and so forth was suppressed by Anwar Culture would immediately start pulling carbon out of the atmosphere because the ultimate carbon capture technology is photosynthesis. That's the opportunity cost of using that land for animal agriculture. So bottom line is there's nothing even comes close in terms of its destructive impact on the environment. So you're thinking all right if I can figure out if I can focus on this thing. Livestock production and I can figure out how to think about solving this problem. Then we can really push the needle right. That could actually potentially make a difference. Is that where your mind was in in two thousand and two thousand nine? Oh absolutely so that was. That was the obvious thing to do. And then the question is how do you do it? And I organized a National Research Council workshop to just look at what how the world might be affected if if we could switch to an entirely plant based Diet figuring that if we got a bunch of very objective people who had no conflict of interest just look objectively at the date of the the answer would be so overwhelming that it's better from for the economy it's better for the environment better for Food Security and so forth. It'll convince people to change their way. Mike Commits people change. But then I realize that actually no nobody nobody. I don't want to sound cynical but none of these kinds of you know all the facts and the world. Don't move the needle on on public policy. And so I realized that. No what you have to do something more subversive and the other thing that I think is kind of a no brainer. But I'll just say it is that you're not gonNA. You're not going to be able to persuade people by education or or nagging to change their diet significantly to significantly reduce meat consumption or consumption of animal products. Look at how wall. People follow nutrition recommendations for their own health as opposed to just the good of the world and they don't and China about three years ago asked it says and to reduce their meat and dairy consumption by half and what happened absolutely nothing right so the bottom line is that doesn't work. Public policy doesn't work. Education doesn't work when you go to an environmental conference where every single person knows how problematic this is. They're all having steak for dinner. So you need more subversive solution and the subversive solution is create products that compete successfully in the marketplace against the products that are pretty spy animal farming and if you can do that effectively eliminate the comic incentives for this ridiculous industry. You can solve the problem quickly so I guess what fairly quickly came to the conclusion that the you basically wanted to make meat but not from animals you wanted to. Basically you accept the fact that many people still wanting neither gonNA eat meet. It's going to be hard to get them to stop eating meat. So why not give me? But don't make it for animals. That was your conclusion I. It was exactly the conclusion. And here's an interesting fact about Meat consumers pretty much around the world and and all across the US. They don't actually like the fact that it's made from the corpses of animals that is not part of the value proposition of meat to pretty much anyone they love it because they love the you know special kind of deliciousness. They get from it. They like the you know high protein and iron and familiarity inconvenienced and so forth like it. In spite of the way it's made and it stands to reason. Why would anyone actually feel like you know what I particularly like about? This product isn't so much that tastes good. It's at it's made from a corpse of cow that had a miserable life. Nobody wants that so that basically means that it just comes down to a simple thing give meat lovers the things they do love about me. Which is the the very particular kind of sensory experience in the sensory pleasures? The nutritional value protein iron primarily are the micronutrients and convenience and affordability. And you win. Let me ask this question given your background in biochemistry. You must have thought in your mind if you ask me right and I'm not a scientist but if I thought I really want to solve this I wouldn't have been able to say you know. I think we can make meet from plants because I wouldn't know that but did you know that it was theoretically possible to do this. Did you already know that in two thousand nine? I can't say I knew it in the sense that there was incontrovertible evidence but but you had a hunch but I would say with very high confidence I I believe. It was doable because really what it comes. Down to is the components that are in meat. You know the amino acids others small molecules Lipids many of the proteins are extremely conserved. They're found in plants as well ZANU and so forth. It seemed to me that if we could understand. What were the salient characteristics of that kind of molecular composition? Salient in the sense of the deliciousness aspect. There's no reason why we couldn't find sources from plants of ingredients that we could assemble into something that from sensory perspective was essentially indistinguishable from the animal. Basically meat made from plants. It's it's just like you know. A camera is a camera whether it's using film or digital imaging so that was all just thinking but I just felt like okay. Of course. This is doable. It's hard that's for sure it's GonNa be really really hard and the hard part is figuring out deliciousness part of it. The rest is wh Pat. I want kind of gut check for say because You are at this point. Your tenured professor. You've a lifetime job right. You're almost sixty I don't believe you were independently wealthy and you decide to between two thousand nine and two thousand eleven actually launched this company but surely there were people. Were saying pen. No are you sure you want to do. Yeah I mean a lot of people thought I was a little wacky but I believed it was doable. You know like to be a scientist. You almost have to be insanely optimistic. Because if you're doing science at matters you're doing experiments that you don't know will work but you have to be inherently insanely optimistic person. So I was sure we'd figure out a way to make it work in Detroit colleagues in the in the Biochemistry Department at Stanford Of even say pat. You're the distinguished academic. You WanNa be a businessman. Really even of them say that to you there is. There is a bit of that I mean I looked at business and I feel like businesses really important. It's not like it's some inferior thing to be doing except that I just felt like going into business for the going to business. I hate it yes. It's it would just be insanely boring. And so I never had the slightest interest. Yeah I didn't think of it all as oh I'm going into the business world. It's that the only way to solve. This problem involves competing in the marketplace and that requires starting for profit business and everybody expected to come back very quickly and in fact you know when I first started. I thought well maybe I'll just kick this year and then I'll just go back to my Sanford job. But what I realized very quickly as no. This is not a hobby. I have to be all in when we come back in just a moment. Pat and a team of scientists spent a year looking for the molecule. That could turn a plan. Burger into an impossible burger and how that eventual discovery turned into an expensive failure that burned through a year of cash. Stay with US and you're listening to how I built. Npr Hey everyone just a quick thanks to two of our sponsors help. Make this podcast possible. I to Dell. The Nation is an uncharted territory and many Americans are looking for ways to support their communities. Dell technologies is working to ensure that small businesses have the right tech solutions. Don't technologies advisers are helping small businesses stay connected and productive while working remotely with Windows. Ten and Microsoft teams entered deploying remote work solutions to minimize upfront costs with Dell Financial Services Dell is standing by its customers. Call eight seven seven ask Dell thanks also to stand for Small and American Express stand for small dot. Com is your one-stop shop resources offers and tools to help your small business. Get back to business. Visit STAND FOR SMALL DOT Com. We're spending more time at home than ever before. So now's a great time to finally adopt a Dog. Great Socialization is GonNa be harder. 'cause socialization and social distancing are definitely at odds so before you decided to adopt a canine companion during quarantine. Listen and subscribe not ours life Kit. Hey welcome back to how I built this from NPR. I'm Guy Roz so it's around two thousand. Eleven and Pat Brown will soon be walking away from tenure job at Stanford to create meat from plants. But before he can even begin to find the ingredients and do the hard science to create an impossible burger. Pat has to raise a ton of money and so he starts just down the road from Stanford with a well known investor named Vinod Khosla. You went to Vinod Khosla and you pitched him what get a Daklak. A PITCH DECK WITH SLIDES IT. And and what did the? Who is your peculiar. Give me your elevator pick. Did you have an elevator pitch? Well it was no. The funny thing was extremely amateurish. Okay on a business perspective because basically was like a mostly lecture about how incredibly destructive the you know and we'll be food industry is and then practically my last slide was. Oh by the way. This is a one point. Five trillion dollar global market you know. In retrospect that could probably have been my first and only slide that I buried lead so you raise the money you raise some money from from Khosla to launch a company that would kind of re imagine a way of producing meat And by the way how did you come up with a name? Impossible foods so when I started the company I we just had a placeholder name. Beat two point zero and then we when we decide we're going to launch a product. We felt like okay. Now we need name that actually works the brand name and we engaged a naming company as an advisor and we were told us by far the most difficult clients they ever had they were they would give us twenty names and say those all suck those are terrible and then in the fourth round one of the names they had was impossible and as soon as I saw that one. I felt like okay. We're done. It's perfect because we wanted something that was memorable. That actually looked good in type. That was an impactful word. A word that gets a little bit of an emotional response and that captured some of the challenger spirit of the company and a lot of our investors was a bad name. Is it possible that such a negative so I sort of launched this thing you've got it's two thousand eleven? How roughly? How much money did you have to remember? We had nine million dollars. Okay so you had nine million dollars and who do you. Who Do you recruited to help you? You want you have this hunch. Pretty strong hunch that you can basically replicate animal meat from plants and we're not talking about like a Tofu Burger. You're literally talking about a completely new kind of neat that it's only works hard hardcore meat. Lovers love right preferred preferred to what comes from cal. Otherwise we're not going to out compete the incumbent industry. So how do you recruit a team? I mean you've got some money and a runway. Now you've got probably runway of who knows maybe a year at least before you raise more money and just to be clear. This is not a knock on you. I think this is actually a great compliment. Because you're a science you're scientists but obviously you showed some entrepreneurial spark throughout your career at Stanford but you did not have a business background so you have to start to build a business. Who how did you find the people to help you out? Yeah for I mean I literally was you know I I would say the large majority of people in in the in the US. Probably have more business savvy than I had when I started this company seriously seriously in fact my wife. Madge is all our finances. Thank God she does so. We needed someone who actually knew what they were doing. Because there's obviously a lot of a lot of expert management required to to run a business even when that's that's not making money so The very first person I hired was a guy who had just about to graduate from Stanford Business School Very Sharp Guy He had grown up on a dairy farm had actually worked as an engineer at General Mills. So I knew something about the food business. He understood the problem we were trying to solve and the NBA and he had an MBA and it and it was and he was a very smart guy so yeah so that was taken care of and then the rest was pretty much all scientists and we were hiring people who had a hardcore basic science background sort of molecular biology biochemistry biophysics and they went to work. Basically studying meet in molecular terms the same way they would study. You know a disease or something like that. See you in all these scientists were were going after this idea that you could make meat without animals right. So what did you do like wool? Where did you start to look well before I founded the company? I had an idea that particular molecule in meat by globe which is a protein And it's what makes me read. Global is what's called Margot it's okay it's very closely to hemoglobin. It's him protein and hime is. What carries oxygen in your blood. It's what makes your blood bread. And he the molecule is found in all animals now we all animals but in pretty much all plants and bacteria and fungi and every form of life. It's a building block of life. It is pretty much a basic building block of life so he hemas very obvious aspect of neat because it's what makes meat red or pink. Okay Okay Yeah. But there's another aspect of him which is one of the most potent catalysts in nature. And when you think about meat when you cook meat something really dramatic happens. That doesn't happen when you Cook Broccoli. And that is it transforms Broccoli or Veggie Burger at soft. It gets warmer bushier. Nothing magical happens when you cook meat you get in the cooking process this real absolute explosion of Rama. That's you know this meet that in the raw form has of minimal odor maybe a slight bloody odor taste suddenly becomes potently flavorful and generates this explosion of Rome and I knew that there is a molecule in in legumes. The Root Rot Najah contained a lot of molecule called leg hemoglobin. That's him protein. It's actually very similar to mine. And so you're saying that legumes like peas or Or or Soybeans have these these route NACHOS and inside. Then there's something called what's called again for soybeans. It's called soil hemoglobin and I suspected so. There's one obvious thing that that he does. Which is it gives the meat. It's red color but what I suspected was. It had a role in the flavor because he was such a good catalyst so anyway. I did some calculations and concluded that there's as much human the root nodules of the US soybean crop as there is an all the meat consumed in the US. And if you could isolated if you can get it then you've got the the holy grail here. That was the harvest a part of the soybean plant that nobody really cares about Therefore we felt like we could get practically for free and get this molecule. That was going to be important for for me anyway so when I raise the money one of the first projects we started was out. How to isolate like hemoglobin from route nachos and contentious as a stupid question. So forgive me you literally pulling out the the root nodules right physically as if it's something that you hold or touch and then you've got extract the extractors Logan. That's the from from these tiny little nachos on the roots of a it was a cockamamie idea. Why is that? How come this was so complicated? It's let's let's put it this way. It's totally doable. But the problem was that it was just a very difficult scaling problem. First of all these root nodules are these little tiny balls. They're mixed in with the soil. You have to separate them out. You have to get rid of all the other stuff to get joined up like hemoglobin. That's food safe and all this stuff it just all those all those scale that exactly. It's it's totally doable. It's just not scalable any practical where it's like trying to pick leaves off of time. Have you ever done that? Little time leaves a lot of work. That's a very good analogy the seeming simplicity and the actual challenge of of doing it at scale so it was in retrospect about idea which. I'm one hundred percent responsible for that idea because you have to burn through a lot of cash to figure that we had half the company basically was to some extent involved in this going out soybean farms for the better part of a year. But this is the kind of thing you have to do. When you're working on south problem will you? Don't know the brute the solution is you have to be not afraid to try things that may fail and Accept that as part of the job. This is not the last expensive failure. We're going to have in our history by long shot. You know as of today we're going. I can tell you for certain we are going to have more expensive failures in the future. As we try to figure out you know how to achieve but the point is we don't have a map to to where we're going it means we have to explore. We have to try that. We don't know for sure will work and some of them won't work and if we're afraid to do that then you know while we shouldn't be scientists and we shouldn't be trying to do there and I'm proud of it because that's the way we have to be so okay so you spent a year basically on this idea that didn't work exam which I'm sure was was hard but But then I guess I mean you discovered a away to essentially grow the the leg hemoglobin by read by putting it in yeast and putting it into the cell and then by doing that you can make it at scale you can basically have lots of it. Yeah they're and basically just grow giant from enter tanks full of the yeast and break. Open the cells and extract. The leukemia go bananas. It's very scalable economics work. Well see you you basically from from what I understand like this around twenty twelve two thousand thirteen that you really kind of start to produce this stuff at scale but that's not the impossible you can't just go into these vats of yeast and grab a handful out and form a patty and grill it. That's that is not. You're still far far away from the actual like impossible at at this point right well. That certainly wasn't sufficient. This was not a sequence of things. So we were. We were working on scaling up to him protein at the same time. We're working on figuring out the texture and the rest of the flavor chemistry and so forth. Okay so bad even before you lodged even before you had a product. People were clearly paying attention because Google reportedly heard what you're doing an offer to buy your company they reportedly offered like two or three hundred dollars just an astounding amount of money. Which which you turn down. So we've never confirmed that I I I got you but you're not going to confirm or deny the let me let me just ask you this question. Why would you have turned that down? Well you know I think Google is a great company and the people. There are lots of super smart people there. This company impossible foods has a very simple highly specific mission that we are completely a hundred percent focused on achieving. Nobody else has that level of focus and commitment no matter how smart they are and the mission is to get people to stop eating animal meet. The mission is to eliminate the need for animals as a food technology and by doing so to save the planet from an environmental catastrophe. Nobody cares as much about as I do. And My colleagues do and I don't want to put the mission at risk by by putting it in the hands of someone who's not as committed to it as we are. That's really what it comes down to so you forge ahead and you continue to kind of interest and work on this product until you got something pretty workable not just workable good enough to actually put out. Put out into the world twenty. Sixteen the Burger. The impossible Burger was launched And you guys sort formed a partnership with David Chang the famous chef in New York of Fu. Tell me why you guys decide to do that. Instead of like you know shipped all the stores you decide. We're going to start with this one place. How did how did that was the thinking behind that. I think it was something that was pretty obvious. Under the circumstances so we had been in contact with a number of chefs that we would give samples of our product to just to get feedback because again the thing is we were not interested in launching veggie Burger. If it didn't satisfy a very hardcore meat lover wasn't going to move the needle on our mission so we were setting high bar for ourselves so we were giving samples to chefs to get their feedback and had been doing that for quite some time. And I see at the time currency flow to David Lee Belong to some Green American organization. The Jiang also belong to and he was going to that event in New York and he brought a sample and Casey could see Dave Chang to have them tested checks kitchen restaurant and he cooked it on his stove. And then just like immediately started Tweeting like my mind is blown. We are the point. Is that Dave? Chang is exactly the kind of person we want to launch with because the main value we would get from launching our product at the time when we had very limited production capacity. You know the amount of money we could bring in from sales was yeah was irrelevant. Okay the only. The value of a sale to us is awareness and brand building and the single most important message that we need to deliver to consumers who never heard of us is delicious. Meat doesn't have to come from animals. And Dave Chang is such a hardcore meet guy that he wants banished all vegetarian items from his menu on principle. Okay and there's no more sincere and voluble. Endorsement than to put our product on a menu for a chef to put on the menu because every chef puts a dish on the menu. They're putting their livelihood in the reputation on the line for the subsequent restaurants relaunch initially again. They're not high volume but they were high credibility restaurant because they were run by uncompromising chefs who are known primarily for their meat. Get you going like high end restaurants in New York and San Francisco and La Right and the thing about chefs. Is that what they want? Is something new something challenging and the thing that's different about our product than any place product is that it has the magic of meat that that only chef can see and there's never been a plant based product because of the the team primarily. That does the magical thing that meet does when you cook it which is transforms completely. You can tune the flavor profile by whether you cook it. You know rare or well done and stuff like that and think for a chef having the creative possibilities that that opens up just makes it exciting for them so. I think that's part of why we were so fortunate to be able to work with these great chefs. It was something new for them to put their artistic skills to use pat. I I wanNA talk to that Obviously a lot of what you do is proprietary and patented in secret. But I'm curious like how do you as you kind of improved it and got it to where it is today? How do you is it? Spices is it. Is it like I don't know is it is a different like ingredients. How do you? How do you is that? I taste spices at all. I mean and it's actually. The ingredients are relatively few. I mean it's the flavor is almost entirely from simple small molecules like amino acids vitamins sugars. Things you can find in vegetables animals. Whatever same simple ubiquitous bio-molecules plus hime as a catalyst and that's most of what's behind the flavor. We don't put spices then. There's no like meat flavor. Rinse in there. It's pretty straightforward. It's it's that the way that we approach the problem was. We basically asked the question. How does how does meat do it? How does meat from cow produces that flavor because if meat from a cow can produce at flavor with bio-molecules said that it contains which we knew at the time? Were extremely similar in competition to the things that are found in plant cells. If we can figure out how meat does it then. We don't have to fake the flavors. We can build in the exact same flavor chemistry into our product so that it does the same thing and it it literally creates the flavor in real time. When you cook in the raw form which you can you can actually eat it raw. Which I wouldn't recommend for the covers and the flavor is completely different from the Cooke version And that's unlike any plant Dr Food before and it tastes bloody. Because he's a weird gives it a bloody? That's you not eating the beef Burger since nineteen seventy six and I've talked a lot of people who are full on vegans and they're freaked out by impossible. Burgers. 'cause they taste so much like beef. Do you eat them. Do even possible burgers. I I mean I've outgrown my craving for for a long time ago but I do like impossible burs fact my sister who has been pitched as long as I have can't bring herself to eat one. Two right yeah exactly exactly. It's just it's just it. Even though she knows of course everything. That's nothing from animal. It's just like a visceral people have very visceral reactions. That are it's it's not your frontal lobe calling the shots at and just mention pat that last just last year you upgraded the recipe for the Burger and then you began rolling it out at grocery stores and then at Burger King which introduced the impossible. Oppor that people in crazy for and then applebee's and white castle and all these other chain started selling it and people loved it. I mean I think even Glenn Beck you know. People like who are like you would imagine would go after vegetarians or like Like they they loved it. You did you see that video yeah or Solaris yet Glenn Beck is like this. I did this great. I can't tell the difference in you went from like just you know David Chang and a couple of restaurants in two thousand sixteen to now. They're everywhere like seven thousand Burger King locations right impossible and there were there were shortages people waiting in line that can get them. So how do you? How much do you have to producer this stuff to me? Demand now unfortunately. That's one of those numbers. I think I'm not supposed to talk about but I just tell you. Lots many millions of pounds Are you able to meet demand? Well the you know. A big part of our fundraising is that. It's exactly this betting on our success. We we have to be building capacity on the premise. That demand will be many fold greater than current sales And have to keep doing that to stay ahead of the demand. What happened a year and a half ago was we were planning on building capacity. But we weren't prepared for this surge in demand that happened over very short period of time it happened so fast that Then we you know basically. We're playing catch up because you know this is. This is a problem of being in a business that produces stuff you know. It's a big investment to build capacity. It takes time. And you're guessing you're doing something that's never been done before where there's no roadmap and we have to say. Okay what's demand going? Be in two years. Yeah as you started to get more popular and people started to Say Hey scrape you then came all kinds of pushback? Okay let me talk about some of the pushback And you know what you're going to get people saying look this is unhealthy. It's full of sodium. It's full of saturated fat. This is you know it's it's full of a bunch of you know. Gmo stuff then. You had the meat industry saying you can't call this burgers their states in the US. Where I think you can't call it a unless it comes from an animal. You can't call it a burger and you know other group saying you know you know you're this is Franken food or lab. Grow all this stuff when you hear people say hey you know. This isn't healthy. What you say I would say from a health nutrition standpoint. We have been extremely deliberate and conscientious to make a product that we believe a substantially better for the consumer then what it replaces and it has the same protein by availability. The same bioavailable people make a big deal about the fact that the sodium content is higher. But you could say yeah and the sodium content of a Paris higher than a peach but the fact is that the sodium content in four ounce. Impossible Burger is. I think one sixth of the sodium allowance in a sodium restricted diet. Okay so this is not a Kale Salad. It's a burger and it's targeted at someone who would otherwise be buying the animal version. We WanNa make it the healthiest most nutritious product we can possibly make and still have it be a burger. Okay if you WANNA Kale Salad please go buy Kale. If you a burger you're better off buying arbor than the conversation. When you hear about these states that are proposing to prohibit companies like yours from using the word meat In their packaging. I mean what happens if you can't call it a burger at in like Missouri or some state. What are you GONNA do? I think that those most most of the bills have been proposed to restrict our labeling have not passed in the state legislature And those that have I. I'd say that the smart money is that they're not going to pass constitutional test but even in the hypothetical case where someone tells us. We can't call it. Well whatever the point is that consumers will figure out what it is and we'll we'll call it whatever we need to call it. Do you think they're threatened the beauty associations threatened by US incredible? Still tiny compared to them. But you're because because they know this is coming and it's just a matter of time we get the economies of scale that they have and When we've expanded our suite of products and so forth that It's going to be game over for them and I think that's why even from before we had our first product. I know from a direct source that a representative of that industry actually reached out to a lobbyist and basically said to you know ask that ask the lobbyists to get congress at the USDA to shut us down. Wow that means you've arrived pat. I mean they're fighting a rearguard action And they're on the wrong side of history pat. I'm wondering You've you've now raised over a billion dollars at this point Which saves a lot of money to do this and even attracted investment from people like Bill Gates and celebrities athletes in tons of different venture firms. But Why is it so expensive like is it is just like all the equipment you need and all sorts of labs and the resources and the materials like? Why is it so expensive? Why does it cost so much? Are SAY LARGE FRACTIONS EXPENSE? So you know. We have an R. and D. team. That's about one hundred twenty people really just as good a group of scientists in any company pretty much ever in history but the work. They do isn't insanely expensive. But we have to scale up production of a physical product that you know. We sell on the scale of tens of millions of pounds a year. We had to build a supply chain for our team protein and and those things are relatively expensive. There's you know Just a the capital investment in building manufacturing facility and all that capacity and That's a big part of it. Is that and the thing is that you have to invest ahead of growth and and you know betting on your success basically. So if we're going to increase volume by several fold this year and several. Fold the next year. Well we need to be building capacity right now. That's like ten what were selling. It's very different from if we were building an APP or something like that where you know. It's it's just you're just paying coders basically right right fair fair point. Yeah I'M PAT obviously You know we have to talk about everything that's going on right now in the world With with the effects of the pandemic and the economy And I mean has it. Has It affected your business Definitely we have to operate differently. I mean I think you know the the workspace. Our workspace is deliberately designed to be effectively. One large space where people are in visual contact with a lot of their colleagues. It's very it's very interactive environment. So it's quite compromising to to a lot of the things that are important to us and of course our RND labs the ability to do actual wet lab work. You can't do because even though it's essential to the future of the planet it's not immediately essential to day to day life for us to be operating. So we're we're so the D operations. Basically you know the people are still getting worked on planning. Experiments analyzing data stuff like that. But it's compromise manufacturing. Yeah it's complicated Pat. I want to go back to something. We talked about earlier. Which was when you turn down that giant offer from Google To Buy your company because had you said Yes to to that offer you would have been an extremely wealthy person right now. And you know. I think that every entrepreneur I've interviewed has said you know they don't care about money and and for the most part I believe most of them but I I actually really really don't think you care about money at all. I'm not motivated. I mean first of all I live in a nice place same place. I lived in for thirty years. I have enough money to take care of my needs and so forth and if I didn't I'd probably be spending a lot of time thinking about money. And where do I get and so forth but the situation I'm in right now is not going to be improved a bit by by more money. Okay Super Rich. If you become a billionaire Eli my life worse. I'm GonNa tell you serious. I'm serious because I know a lot of people who are super rich and I would say by and large. They're not as happy as I am. Their kids are much more likely to be miserable than my kids are. It sounds like such a stupid thing but once you have your basic needs met I think more money. adds very little value. And if you're trading if you're talking about something as incredibly valuable and motivating to be as mission of this company and so forth and so important to the world of course I wouldn't trade that for money when you think about it right. I mean if you didn't ever do impossible foods in you're honored after retirement at Stanford and they would talk about the research you did and genetics and all the breakthroughs led to and and Co founding this academic journal and you went on to do this thing after you left Stanford I mean. You left that safe comfortable job when you started this business. It's now reported devaluated four billion dollars and I know as you said. It's not your motivation. But I mean the fact it is. It's a value four billion dollars And I mean when you think about all of the things that got you to this point you know and the risk you took by leaving and you know do doing this and all that happened before I mean. Do you think that your success because of your intelligence and how hard you work do think you know. More of it has to do with luck. I think the most important thing is I feel like there. A lot of people who are smarter smarter than me and in terms of the kind of problem solving skills Were entirely capable of doing this. So what what I think is important that I contributed is the initiative and the determination to do it. It's basically the critical thing that I provided was that I looked at this problem. I saw that nobody was seriously taking it on and I basically decided. I'm going to take responsibility for solving this problem because I was exceptionally capable of solving it but basically because I decided to do it. I think that's the most important thing and I feel like it's the one thing that that keeps a lot of valuable things from happening. Is People feel like you know someone else must be? This is someone else's job to solve you know. Why would I be the person to do this? I'm so unqualified because I was unqualified. Well the answer is someone's got to do it and I feel like a lot of good things would happen if people were more willing to just say. I'm going to take responsibility to solve this problem. And so I think that's the. The main attribute the enabled me to to take on. That's Pat Brown founder of impossible foods. In addition to plant based beef the company is also recently rolled out plant port that challenge still to overcome making a nice shoe. See plant-based steak. The pet says quote. There's no question we're GonNa get there and thanks so much for listening to this show this week you can subscribe wherever you get your podcast you can also write to us at. H. NPR DOT Org. And you want us into tweets at how I built this or at Cairo's this episode was produced by Rachel Faulkner with music composed by routine Arab. Louis thanks also to Candice Limb Julia Carney Neva grant and Jeff Rodgers. I'm Roz and you've been listening to how I built this this is NPR.

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367. The Future of Meat

Freakonomics

54:08 min | 1 year ago

367. The Future of Meat

"Let's begin with a few basic facts fact, number one a lot of people all over the world really liked to eat meat, especially beef, pork. And chicken. If you add them all together, we're actually higher than we've been in in recent history. It's Jason Lusk. I'm professor and head of the agricultural economics department at Purdue University. I study what we eat and why we eat it. And then in terms of overall meat consumption per capita in the US. How do we rank worldwide where we're the king of meters? So compared almost any other country in the world, we eat more meat per capita, even Brazil Argentina. Yes. Yes. And part of that difference is income based. So if you took Argentina, Brazil and adjusted for income, they would probably be consuming more than us. But we happen to be richer. So we eat a little more the average American consumes roughly two hundred pounds of meat a year. That's an average. So let's say your meter someone in your fam-. Vegetarian. You might be putting away four hundred pounds a year. But in America, at least there aren't that many vegetarians? I probably have the largest data set of vegetarians of any other researcher that I know really why I've been doing a survey of US food consumers every month for about five years and one of the questions, I ask are you a vegan vegetarian so over five years time and about a thousand people a month. I've got about sixty thousand observations. Wow. And is this a nationwide data survey, it is Representative in terms of age and income education. I'd say on average you're looking at about three to five percent of people say yes to that question that say there's a very slight uptick over the last five years. So again, a lot of meat eating in America. What are some other countries that consume lot of meat, Australia and New Zealand Israel Canada? Russia most European countries and increasingly China. One of the things we know is that when consumers get a little more income in their pocket. One of the first things they do wanna add high value proteins to their diets. What is the relationship generally between GDP and meat consumption, positive, although sort of diminishing return, so as you get to really high income levels, it might even tell off a little bit. But certainly at the lower end of that spectrum as a country grows adds more GDP start to see some pretty rapid increases in meat consumption meat consumption is, of course, driven by social and religious factors as well by cuff, concerns and animal welfare. Not everyone agrees that humans should be eating animals at all that said, we should probably assume that the demand for me will continue to rise as more of the world keeps getting richer. How's the supply side doing with this increased demand quite well? The meat industry is massive and complicated and often heavily subsidized. But long story short. If you go by the availability of meat, and especially what consumers pay this is an economic success story. So prices of almost all of our meat products, have declined considerably over the last sixty one hundred years, and the reason is that we have become so much more productive at producing meat. If you look at most of the the amount of port produced per sow, and we'd take out a lot of the seasonal variation that we used to see these animals have been pride in doors, and and you look at at poultry production broiler production the amount of meat. That's produced per broiler has risen dramatically. Almost doubled say over the last fifty to one hundred years while also consuming slightly less feed. That's due largely to selective reading and other technologies. Same goes for beef production. We get a lot more meat per animal, for example on a smaller amount. Of land as you can imagine people concerned with animal welfare may not celebrate these efficiency improvements, and then there's the argument that despite these efficiency improvements turning animals into food is wildly inefficient because the cow didn't evolve to be meat. That's the thing. That's Pat Brown is a longtime Stanford biomedical researcher who's done groundbreaking work in genetics. The cow valve to be a cow and make more cows and not to be eaten by humans, and it's not very good at making me. Meaning it takes an enormous amount of food and water and other resources to turn a cow or pig into dinner, much more than plant based foods and Pat Brown sees it. That is not even the worst of it. The most environmentally destructive technology on earth using animals in food production. Nothing else even comes close. Not everyone agrees that meat production is the environment's. Biggest enemy. What's not? In dispute is that global demand for me is high and rising and that the production of meat is resource intensive and at the very least and environmental challenge with implications for climate change. Pat Brown thinks he has a solution to these problems. He started a company the company whose mission is to completely replace animals as a food production technology by twenty thirty five the meat industry, as you can imagine has other ideas, we want to keep the term meat to what is traditionally harvested in raised in the traditional manner today on freakonomics radio, everything you always wanted to know about me about meatless meat and where meat meets future. From Stitcher and their productions. This is freakonomics radio. The podcast explores the hidden side of everything here's your host, Stephen Duffner. What determines which food you put in your mouth every day? There are plainly a lot of factors personal preference. Tradition geography on so take something like horse consumption that. It's almost unheard of to even think about consuming a horse in the United States Jason Lusk again, the agricultural economists. Whereas, you know, you go to Belgium or France, it would be a commonly consumed dish. But there's another big factor that determines who eats what technology technology related to how food is grown preserved transported, but also technology that isn't even related to the food itself. Consider the case of mutton. Mutton is the me of an adult sheep, the meat of young sheep. It's called lamb. I I'm willing to bet that you have not eaten mutton in the last six months probably the last six years, maybe never. But if we were talking a hundred years ago different story that certainly the case that back in the nineteen twenties and thirties that mutton was a much. More commonly consumed product mutton was a staple of the American diet one of the standard items ship to soldiers during World War Two was canned mutton. But shortly after the war mutton started to disappear. What happened as sheep is? Not just meet. Okay. Sheep is not just meet these are multi product species and their valuable not just for their meat, but further wool. Oh. Yeah. Wool and unlike leather, which can be harvested only once from an animal, you can share wool from one. Sheep many times over many years. So anything that affects the demand for wool is also going to the market for the rest of the of the underline animals, and what might affect the demand for wool. How about synthetic substitutes nylon? For instance, was created by DuPont in nineteen thirty five became available to the public in nineteen forty a year later polyester was invented. So anytime, you had new clothing technologies come along that's gonna affect the underlying and for for sheep and make them less less valuable than they would have been otherwise. So an increase in synthetic fabrics led to a shrinking demand for wool, which meant that. Although sheep that had been kept around for shearing no longer needed to be kept around. Also will subsidies were repealed and America's sheep flock, drastically shrank from a high of fifty six million in nineteen forty two barely five million today. But. His amazing. I've worked at several agricultural universities across the US now and often the largest sheep herds in those states or at the university research farms in fewer, sheep, meant less mutton for dinner is it possible Americans would have stopped eating mutton without the rise of synthetic fabrics. Absolutely. If you ask a room full of meat eaters to name their favorite me. I doubt one of them will say mutton still this is just one example of how technology can have a big affect on the meat we eat. And if you talk to certain people, it's easy to believe that we're on the verge of a similar but much larger technological shift. Okay. My name is Pat Brown. I'm currently the CEO and founder of impossible foods whose mission is to completely replace animals as a food production. Technology Brown grew up in the suburbs of Washington DC as well as Paris and Taipei. Father worked for the CIA. He studied to be pediatrician and in fact completed his medical residency, but he switched to biochemistry research. I had the best job in the world at Stanford. My job was basically to discover and invent things and follow my curiosity. Brown. Did this for many years and was considered a world-class researcher one of his breakthroughs was a new tool for genetic mapping? It's called the DNA micro array that lets you read all the words at this L is using and effectively kind of start to learn the vocabulary. Learn how the genome writes the life story of a Sal or something like that. It also has practical applications because what it's doing in sort of a deterministic way specifies potential of that cell or if it's a cancer cell. Some people think the DNA micro array will win Pat Brown Nobel prize when I bring this up. Just shakes his head. And smiles it's clear that his research was a deep passion for me. This was the dream job. It was like in the renaissance, you know, having the magic he's as patrons or something like that. But after many years Brown wanted a change he was in his mid fifties. He took a sabbatical figure out his next move. It started out with stepping back from the work. I was doing and ask myself the most important thing, I could do what could I do that? We have the biggest positive impact on the world and looking at what are the biggest unsolved problems in the world. I, you know, came relatively quickly conclusion that the use of animals of production technology is by far. And I could give you endless reasons why that's true. But it is absolutely true. By far, the most environmentally destructive thing that humans. Do there is indeed a great deal of evidence for this argument across the entire environmental spectrum. The agriculture historian James McWilliams in a book called just food are used that quote, every environmental problem related to contemporary agriculture ends up having its deepest roots in meat production. Monocropping excessive applications of nitrogen fertilizer addiction to insecticides rainforest depletion land degradation, topsoil runoff, declining water supplies, even global warming. All these problems McWilliams rights would be considerably less severe if people ate meat rarely if ever, you know, there's no doubt that meat production has environmental consequences. Jason Lusk again to suggest that it's the most damaging environmental thing, we do as I think it pretty extreme overstatement, but what about the greenhouse gas emissions associated with raising me, especially in the US, which is the world's largest beef producer, our own EPA environmental protection agencies suggests that all of livestock contributes about three. Percent of our total greenhouse gas emissions. So I mean three percent is not nothing. But it's it's not the major contributor that. We see that that number. I should say is much higher. Many other parts of the world. So the carbon impacts per pound produced are so much smaller here than a lot of the world. But when you tell people the way to reduce carbon emissions is to intensify animal production. That's not a story. A lot of people like to hear because why not it sounds like it's against animal welfare. Well, two reasons exactly one is there are concerns about animal welfare, particularly when you're talking about ruler, chickens, or or hogs a less of about cattle in the other one is there are concerns about when you concentrate ally animals, one placing all this waste in in a location that you have to think about creative ways to deal with don't have some significant of our mental problems. So the EPA number livestock, contributing three percent does that include the entire production chain, though, because some of the numbers that I see. From environmental activists is much much higher than that the UN estimate that you often hear from originally was created in this report called livestock long shadow is something around nineteen percent. But that nineteen percent roughly number is a global number. Actually, there was a a study that came out pointing out some flaws in that. So they reduced it somewhat. In any case. There is a growing concern in many quarters over the externalities of meat production over the last five to ten years. There's been a lot of negative publicity of stories about environmental impacts about carbon emissions about animal welfare. And if you just look at the news stories, you would think boy people must be really cutting back given the sort of frightful stories that you see on the front pages of the newspapers. But if you look at the data itself demand looks fairly stable, and so that suggested me either it's it's hard to change people's preference on this or something about me consumption. Some people would argue that were evolved to like meet that it's a protein vitamin packed. You know, tasty punch that we've grown to enjoy as a species. There are some people that even argue that it's one of the reasons we became a smart as. We did the vitamins and nutrients are in that meet allowed our brains to develop in certain ways that it might have not otherwise Pat Brown saw that same strong preference for me when he decided that the number one scientific problem to solve was replacing animals as food. And it's a problem that nobody was working on in any serious way. Because everybody recognize that most people in the world, including most environmental scientists and people who care about this stuff. A love the food that we get from animals so much that they can't imagine giving those up Brown himself was a longtime vegan. So I yeah, I haven't eaten you know, beat for decades. And that's just a personal choice that I made long before I realized the destructive impact of that industry that was choice for other reasons. And it wasn't something that I felt like you know, I was in position. Other people to do. And I still don't feel like there's any value in doing that Brown makes an interesting point here. Many of us when we feel strongly about something and environmental issue or social or economic issue we're inclined to put forth a moral argument. A moral argument would appear to be persuasive evidence of the highest order, you should do this thing because it's the right thing to do. But there is a ton of research showing that moral arguments are generally ineffective people may smile at you and nod, but they won't change your behavior. That's what Brown realized about meet, the basic problem is that that people are not gonna stop wanting these foods, and the only way you're going to solve it is not by estimate you halfway and give them a substandard product that doesn't deliver. What they know they want from meat or fish or anything like that. The only way to do it is you have. Say we're going to do the much harder thing, which is we're going to figure out how to make meat. That's not just as delicious as the meat. We get from animals. It's more delicious and better, nutritionally and more affordable and so forth. In other words, a marginal improvement on the standard veggie burger would not do. It's Ben tried. It just doesn't work. It's a waste of effort. So Brown started fooling around in his lab. Doing some kind of micro experiments just to convince myself in a way that this was doable. Early experiments were fairly encouraging. I felt like okay. There's a bunch of things I thought could be useful. And then I felt like I could just go in with a little bit more confidence to talk the investors. The investors meaning venture capitalists. Remember Brown is at Stanford, which is next door to the biggest pile of venture capital in the history of the world. Then basically by pitch them was you know, it was it was very naive from a fundraising standpoint in the sense that basically I mostly just told them about how there's this absolutely critical environmental disaster. That needs to be solved, and and they're probably expecting to hear something about carbon capture. Yeah. That's that's the thing in most people still are so anyway bottled. So I just told these guys look, this is an environmental disaster knows doing anything about it. I'm gonna solve it for you. So how does the almost pediatrician who became a freewheeling biochemist build a better meet from the ground up that amazing story after the break? Okay. Bingo. This is how we're going to do it. Freakonomics radio is sponsored by capterra. The leading free online resource to help you find the best software solution for your business with over seven hundred thousand reviews of products from real software users. Capterra has everything you need to make an informed decision. No matter what your business needs. Visit. Capterra dot com slash freakonomics for free today to find the right tools to make two thousand nineteen year for your business. Capterra dot com slash freakonomics. Capterra that's C A P T E R, A dot com slash freakonomics. Freakonomics radio is sponsored by navy Federal Credit Union navy Federal's mission is to put members I by making their financial goals. The priority receive a lifetime of membership benefits like credit card APR average his four percent lower than the industries and access to over three hundred branches and thousands of fee free. ATM's navy federal is proud to serve over eight million members. Including over one million veterans and their families. For more information. Visit navyfederal dot org or call one eight eight four to six three two eight or download the navy Federal Credit Union app today. Message and data rates may apply. Visit navyfederal dot org. For more information. It's estimated that more than half of the greenhouse gas emissions associated with all animal agriculture comes from cows. And that is due to the fact that be for ruminant animals, the Purdue economists Jason Lusk again their stomachs produce methane comes out the front end, not the back end is a lot of people think. And as a consequence we look at carbon consequences, mainly beef that people focus on not pork or chicken because they don't have the same kind of Justice systems. There has been progress in this area. For instance, it turns out that adding seaweed to cattle feed drastically reduces their methane output. But the scientists Pat Brown is looking for much bigger change to the animal agriculture industry. If I could snap my fingers and make that industry disappear right now, which I would do if I could. And it'd be a great thing for the world. It is very unlikely to disappear anytime soon, it is a trillion dollar global industry supported in many places by government subsidies selling product that billions of people consume once twice even three times a day. Pat, Brown's desire would seem to be an impossible on the company. He founded is called impossible foods, it's essentially a tech startup, and it's raised nearly four hundred million dollars to date in venture capital. So we've only been in existence for about seven years, and we have about three hundred people we started by basically building a team of some of the best scientists in the world to study how meat works, basically. And by that. I mean to really understand that a basic level the way in my previous life when I was about medical scientist. We might be studying how a normal Sal of this particular, kind becomes a cancer cell understanding, the basic bio chemical mechanisms in this case, what we wanted to understand was what are the basic biochemical mechanisms that account for the unique flavor chemistry in the flavor behavior, and aromas and textures and juicy nece and all those qualities that consumers value in meat, and we spent about two and a half years just doing basic research trying to answer that question before we really started working on a product, and then decided for strategic reasons that our first product would be while ground beef made entirely from plants because Burger's what people want or well, there's a lot of reasons why I think it was a good strategic choice largest single category of meet new us. It's probably the most iconic kind of meat in the US. It seemed like the. Ideal vehicle for communicating to consumers that delicious meat doesn't have to come from animals because it's it's sort of the Uber meat for a lot of people who lower case you with a lower people are not Kaelin burgers. And beef production is the most environmentally destructive segment of the an wider culture industry. So from an impact standpoint, it made sense as a choice. Round said about repurposing the scientific wisdom he'd accrued over a long fruitful career in biomedicine a career that may improve the health and wellbeing of countless millions. And now he got to work on a truly earthshaking project building a better burger a burger that doesn't come from cow an impossible burger, so how did that work? What ingredients do you put in an impossible burger? That's an interesting aspect about the science, which is that we didn't look for what are the precisely specific choices of ingredients that would work. We studied what are the biochemical properties we need from the set of ingredients. And then we did a survey of things available from the plant world that match those biophysical properties and so forth of which there were choices. So what? Are the main components of this burger, I can tell you what it's made of right now. The what it's made of right now is different from how it was made two years ago, and that was different from how is made two and a half years ago. And the next version we're going to launch quite different set of ingredients. We I interviewed Brown several months ago, the main ingredients at the time included a protein from wheat protein from potatoes and starch from potatoes. But a protein from potatoes byproduct of starch production among the other ingredients coconut oils, major fats horse, and then we have a bunch of other small molecules, but they're all familiar things, you know, acids of vitamin sugars nutrients, but all these ingredients did not make Pat Brown's plant based hamburger, meat taste or act or look lake hamburger meat. It was still missing a critical component a component called hime. Okay. So he has found in essentially every living thing. Ng and he in and human animals is the exact same molecule. Okay. It's it's just one of the most ubiquitous and fundamental molecules in life on earth period. The system that burns calories to produce energy uses him as an essential component. And it's what carries oxygen in your blood, and what makes your blood red? And none of this. We discovered this has been known for a long time. And and so animals have a lot more hime than plants, and it's at very high concentration of hime that accounts for the unique flavors of meat that you would recognize something as meat. It's the overwhelmingly dominant factor in making the unique taste of meat and visit is involved in texture and mouth feel and all that as well. Does taste just say, okay, just taste texture and mouth feel are really important. And there's a whole nother set of research around that super important, it kind of gets short shrift because people think of the flavor is sort of the most dramatic thing about me, but you have to get out of their stuff right to Brown. And his team of scientists after a couple years of research and experimentation were getting a lot of that stuff. Right. But without him a lot of hime their meatless meat would never resemble meat. So there is one component of a certain kind of plant that has a high concentration of human that is in client fix nitrogen taken from the air and turn it into fertilizer. They they have a structure called root nodule where the nurtured fixation takes place, and for reasons that are too complicated. Explain right now, they they that has high concentration of him. And I just happen to know this from way back, and if you slice open the root nodules of one of these plants they have such a high concentration of teams that they looked like a freshly cut steak. Okay. And and I did a calculation about the concentration of that stuff. So like opens the protein, which is virtually identical to the him protein in muscle tissue, which called Maya globe. And that there was enough leg hemoglobin in the root nodules of the US soybean. Crop to replace all the hime in all the meat consumed in the US. Okay. So I thought genius. Okay. We'll just go out and harvest all these root nodules from the US soybean crop. And we'll get this stuff practically for free. Well, so I raised money for the company, and we spent like half the money trying to figure out how to harvest these root nodules from soybean plant only, basically definetely convince ourselves said there was a terrible idea. But if you are a veteran, scientists lake Brown, a little failure is not so offputting. You know, you're going to be doing things that are pushing the limits and trying tire new things and a lot of mortga fail. And if you don't have a high tolerance for that. And realize that basically the way you do really really important cool stuff is by trying a lot of things and not punishing yourself for the failures. But just celebrating the successes. You're not going to accomplish as much in the idea of buying up all the root nodules of the US soybean crop wasn't a complete failure. I mean, we got enough that we could do experiments to prove that really wasn't magic ingredient from flavor and so forth. But then we had to start all over. And then what we did was. We said, okay, we're gonna have to engineer a micro organism to produce gobs of this protein. Okay. And since now, we weren't bound by any natural source. We looked at like three dozen different proteins, everything from you know, Paramus AM to barley to hells gate bacteria, which is like this. It's a plant. It's back. There's a bacteria that lives in an deep sea vents at near New Zealand. That's that survives temperatures above the boiling point of water that we mostly just looked at for fun. But finding about that. And the reason we rejected is that that you it so heat stable that you can cook a burger to cook. Temperature and it still says stays bright red because it doesn't unfold, but anyway, and then we pick the best one which turned out to be just coincidentally soil hemoglobin, which was the one we were going ask to begin actually pretty good. It wasn't really a brilliant idea. Accidentally turned out to be the right choice through the magic of modern plant engineering. Pat Brown's team began creating massive stocks of him and that hime would help catapult the impossible burger will beyond the realm of the standard veggie burger the mostly unloved veggie burger, we should say the impossible burger looks like hamburger meat when it's raw. And when it's cooked it behaves like hamburger meat most important, it tastes like hamburger me the American impossible. And how would you like? Medium medium. In the middle. The freakonomics radio team recently eight some impossible burgers in a restaurant near time square. I actually can't take it tastes like. Good day for the impossible for economics. But Zac, Pinski Alson Cregg Lil Ryan Kelly and Greg Rippin their meal happened to coincide with the release of impossible burger two point. Oh, an updated recipe that uses a soy protein instead of a week protein and has a few more tweaks less salt sunflower oil to cut the coconut oil and no more. Zanthosyn Gummer Konjic gum in my own tasting experience impossible burger one point. Oh was really good. But a little slushy two point zero was burger tastic. I did not record my burger tasting. But if I did it would sounded like this. These are. Of course are subjective. Observations. Here's some actual evidence. Impossible burgers are already being served in roughly five thousand locations, primarily in the US. But also, Hong Kong and Macau these include very high end restaurants in New York and California as well as fast food chains. Like, mommy burger and even white castle this year impossible plans to start selling its burger meat in grocery stores, we've grown in terms of our sales and revenue and so forth about thirty fold in the past year. And our goal is to completely replace food technology by twenty thirty five that means we have to approximately double in size and impact every year for the next eighteen years. Are we understand that you or taking aim at pigs and chickens and fish as well? Yes, of course. So when we first started out, we were working on technology platform, and sort of the know how about how meat works. In general, we are working on understanding dairy products, and cheeses and stuff like that. And then we decide okay, we have to pick one product launch with. And then we have to from commercials ation Sandpoint just go all in on it for a while as the scientists as a scientist were you reluctant to kind of narrow yourself for that commercial interest. Or did you appreciate that? This is the way in this world things actually happened. Both. I mean, let's go this way. I would like to be able to to pursue all these things in parallel in if I had the resources I would. But if we launched another product right now, we just be competing against ourselves for resources for commercialization. So just doesn't make any sense. We put out an episode not long ago called two totally opposite ways to save the planet. It featured the science journalist Charles man, are we're going to deal with climate change. There've been two ways that have been suggested overarching ways represent if you like polls a continuum and they've been fighting with each other for decades, the two polls are represented by what man calls in his latest book the wizard and the profit the prophecies environmental destruction as a problem. Best addressed by restoring nature to its natural state the wizard. Meanwhile, believes that technology can address environmental dangers, this is of course, a typology shorthand a profit doesn't necessarily fear technology any more than a wizard fears nature that said if there were ever an embodiment of the wizard profit hybrid a person driven by ideal. Realism and pragmatism in equal measure. I'd say it's Pat Brown, which means his invention has the capacity to upset. People all across the spectrum. The consumers and activists who might cheer meatless meat are often the same sort of people who are anti GMO genetically modified organisms in the impossible burger would not have been possible. Without it's genetically modified hime, which by the way, the FDA recently declared safe after challenges from environmental groups, like friends of the earth another group that might object to impossible foods the meat industry. You know, the ones who use actual animals to raise food. My name is Kelly Fogarty, and I serve as the executive vice president for the United States Cattlemen's association, and I am a fifth generation. Beef cattle rancher here in oakdale, California. I'm just curious as a woman, do you? Find yourself ever wishing the US Cattlemen's association would change their name or UK with. You know, it's funny. You mentioned that there's always a little bit of a notion there in the back of my mind of of, you know, of course, being an industry for so long. I take it as representing all of the livestock industry. But you know, definitely having a special nod to all the female ranchers out. There would be nice to have as well. And what is the primary difference between the US Cattlemen's association and the national Cattlemen's beef association as the United States Cattlemen's association. We are made up primarily of cattle producers so your family ranches cow calf operations run by producers and kind of four producers as what US was built on. Whereas national Cattlemen's beef association does include some more of Packer influences as well as some of the processing facilities as well. Can you just talk generally for moment? How big of a threat does the beef industry see from alternative? Quote, meet. So from our end, you know, looking at the quote, unquote, meat and appreciate you hito using those quotes around that too. From our in not so much seeing it as a threat to our product. We really looking at is not a limit on consumer choice or trying to back one product out of the market. It's really to make sure that we're keeping the information out there accurate, and that what is available to consumers in. What is being shown to consumers on labels is accurate to what the product actually is? Two thousand eighteen Fogarty's organization filed a petition with the USDA to prevent products from being labeled as beef for meet unless they come from cow. I mean, does that mean that your organization thinks that consumers are confused by labeling that the primary objection? So the primary junction from from the United Kingdom association is that we want to keep the term meet to what is traditionally harvested and raised in the traditional manner. And so when we see the term meat being put on these products that is not derived from that definition, what our producers came to us in really wanted us to act on was what we saw happened in other industries specifically when you look at the dairy industry, and where the term milk has now been used. Almond milk, for instance, which comes from almonds not animals, which led the national milk. Producers federation to argue that it should not be sold as almond milk. The FDA. Agreed. It's Commissioner pointed out that quote, an almond doesn't lactate there are important differences between so-called milk that doesn't come from animals and so-called meet that doesn't come from animals almond milk has very different nutritional content than cow's milk. The impossible burger, meanwhile has a similar nutritional profile to hamburger, including the iron content which vegans can have trouble getting enough. That's another reason why Kellie Fogarty and the US Cattlemen's association might not want the impossible burger to be labeled me. I am just curious about the kind of I guess mental state of your industry because I was looking at your Facebook page and one post the other day lead with with the following eat or be eaten be at the table or on the menu fight or be forgotten. So that sounds it would make me believe that the future of me is one in which cattle ranchers feel a little bit like an endangered species, or at least under a salt. I think that speaks to a lot of I think misconceptions that are out there regarding the US beef industry, whether it be in terms of, you know, attrition environment animal welfare. We've we've really been hit from a lot of different angles over the years. Okay. We'll according to some scientific research meat production. And or cattle ranching are among the most environmental. Damaging activities on on earth between the resource intensiveness land. But especially water and the extra analogies the runoff manure chemicals into groundwater. I think one of the first points to make is that cattle are really they're defined as as what is termed as up cycler 's and so- cattle today, they're turning plants that have little to no nutritional value just as is into a high quality and a highly high dense protein, and so when you look at where cattle grazing in the US, and then also across the world a lot of the land that they are grazing on that is not suitable for crops or would be kind of looking as a highly marginal type of of land and the ability of livestock to turn. What is there into something that kid feed the world is? Pretty remarkable. Fogarty believes her industry has been unfairly maligned that has come to be seen as a target for environmentalist groups and causes. I would absolutely say, you know, the livestock industry and into that matter agriculture industry as a whole I think has really been at the brunt of a lot of a lot of disinformation campaigns Fogarty points to that u n report claiming that the global livestock industries greenhouse gas emissions were shockingly high report that was found to be built on faulty calculations. Yeah. So it was really an unacceptable and grossly inflated percentage that really turned a conversation the inflated percentage of around eighteen percent was really around fourteen point five percent. So grossly inflated. Maybe in the eye of the aggrieved Fogarty says, even though the air was knowledged. And a revised report was issued folks. Have not forgotten it as much as we wish. It's still something that it's hard to have folks kind of unreal. Or unknow something that they initially saw. The fact is that the agriculture industry is massive and massively complex without question. It exacts costs on the environment. It also provides benefits that are literally the stuff of life, delicious, abundant affordable food as with any industry. There are trade-offs and there's friction activists tend to overstate their claims in order to encourage reform industry defenders tend to paper over legitimate concerns. But in the food industry, especially it's clear that a revolution is underway. A revolution to have our food be not just delicious and abundant and affordable. But sustainable too with fewer negative externalities. Some startups like impossible foods, focus on cleverly engineering plant matter to taste like the animal flesh, so many people love other startups are working on what's call. Lab grown meat using animal stem cells to grow food without animals. This is still quite young technology. But it's very well funded curious to hear Kelly fogies view of this. One of the investors in the lab meet quote company. Memphis meets is Cargill which is a major constituent of the big meat industry. I mean, another investor for what it's worth is. Bill gates. But I'm curious what's what your position on that? Because the way I think about this long-term presumably a firm like Cargill can win the future with alternative, quote, meet in a way that a cattle rancher can't. So I'm curious what the position is of ranchers on this kind of investment from a firm light cargo or other firms that are sort of hedging their bets on the future of meat. You know, and it's a really interesting point in. It's it's been a bit of a tough pill for producers to swallow. The fact that some of the big three some of these big processing plants that have been so obviously heavily focused and have been livestock dominant. Are now kind of going into this alternative in in in. Sometimes a cell cultured lab meets alternative proteins, and it really has been appointed contention. Among a lot of producers who are kind of confused unsure fill a little bit. You know, kind of oh trying to think of the right term here. But I don't wanna say betrayed by by the industry, but but a little bit so others may soon feel betrayed as well. A company called modern meadows is using similar technology to grow leather in the lab without the need for cattle. These Rayleigh comes. Any super meat is focused on growing chicken. And then there's a company called finless foods finless, boots is taking seafood back to basics, and creating real fish meat entirely. Without mercury plastic without the need for antibiotics or growth hormones and also without the need for fishing or the killing of animals because we grow the fish to wreck leave from stem cells. It's Mike Selden the co founder and CEO of finless. He's twenty seven years old. He started out as a cancer researcher. Like, Pat Brown, you could call him a wizard profit hybrid. He does take issue with the idea of lab grown food. The reality is like labs are by definition experimental and are not scalable see this won't be grown in a lab at all. It's prototypes. In a lab in the same way. The snacks are prototypes. In a lab, Doritos or prototypes. In a lab by material. Scientists looking at different dimensions of. Crunch in torsion, and all these other sort of mechanical properties. So what are facility will look like when we're actually at production skill. It's something really a lot closer to a brewery, big steel tanks that are sort of allowing these cells space in order to divide and grow into large quantities of themselves. Well, accessing all of the nutrients that we put inside of this nutritional broth, the fishing industry like the meat industry. Exact its share of environmental costs, but lake Pat Brown. Mike Selden does not want his company to win on goodwill points. So the goal of finless foods is not to create something that competes on ethics or morals or environmental goals. It's something that will compete on taste price nutrition, the things that people actually care about, you know, right now, everybody really loves Wales and people hate when Wales are killed what changed because we used to kill whales for their blubber in order to light lamps. It was. Isn't an ethical movement. It wasn't that people woke up one day and decided killing whales is wrong. It was that we ended up using kerosene. Instead, we found another logical solution a supply side change that didn't play on people's morals in order to win. We see ourselves as something like that. Why work with an animal at all? You don't need to. Indeed, you could imagine the not so distant future a scenario in which you could instantly summon any food imaginable, new foods new combinations. But also foods that long ago fell out of favour. How much fun would that be? I asked the agriculture economists Jason Lusk about this. If we had a three D printer, and let's say head just will be conservative a hundred buttons of different foods that it could make me does anyone press the button button. One of the great things about our food system is that it's a food system. Yes, makes food affordable. But also has a whole awful lot of choice for people who are willing to pay it. And I bet there's probably at least one or two people out there. That'll push that button. I also asked Lusk for his economic views on the future of meat, especially the sort of projects that inventors like Mike Selden and Pat Brown or working on. I have no problems with what? You know, Dr Brown's trying to do there. And indeed, I think it's very exciting this technology in I think, you know, alternately it'll come down to whether this lab grown meat can compete on the marriage. So there's no free lunch here. In fact, impossible burger I've seen it on menus. It's almost always higher price than the traditional beefburger. Now as an economist. I look at that and say those prices to me should be signaling something about resource use. Maybe it's in 'perfect. Maybe there's some extra analogies, but they should reflect all the resources that were used to go into produce that product. It's one of the reasons that beef is more expensive than say chicken. It takes more time more inputs to get produce a pound of beef than a pound of chicken. So why is it that the impossible burger is more expensive than the regular burger? Now, it could be that this is just a start up and they're not working at scale. Once they really scale the saying up at a really bring the price down. It could be they're also marketing to particular higher income consumers. Willing to pay a little more. But I think you know, if the claims about the impossible burger are truth overtime, one would expect these products to come down significantly in price and be much less expensive beef production, and this is not gonna make my be friends happy. But if they can do that good for them in consumers want to pay for this the life the way, it tastes, and it saves money, which means it savings resources. I think in that sense. It's great technology. Whether or not you eat meat, whether or not you're interested in eating these alternative meets from plant matter or animal stem cells, it's hard to not add Meyer, the creativity. The someone like Pat Brown has exercised the deep curiosity. The ability to come back from failure the sheer cleverness of putting together dispered ideas into a coherent scientific plan. So coming up next time on frigging radio. We get back to our series on creativity. We ask scientists artists and others where do those ideas come from? Sometimes they come out of nowhere. You think? And then it turns out that they came from the future. So the question was are there patterns in the universe? Are there features? Is there some geometry inspiration is for amateurs the rest of just show up and get to work. How to be creative idea generation that's next time and frigging radio. Freakonomics radio is produced by Stitcher. In w productions this episode was produced by Zach Lipinski. Our staff also includes Alison Craig low, Greg Rippin, and Harry Huggins we had helped this week from Nelly Osborne. Are fem- song is Mr. fortune by the Hitchhiker's all the other music was composed by we scare you can subscribe to freakonomics radio an apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. The entire archive is available on the Stitcher app or at freakonomics dot com where we also publish transcripts show notes and much more. If you want the entire archive ad free. Plus, lots of bonus episodes, go to Stitcher premium dot com slash freakonomics. We can also be found on Twitter, Facebook and Lincoln or via Email at radio at freakonomics dot com for straight. You also plays on many NPR stations. If we're not on yours. Call them tell them to change their ways as always thanks for listening. Stitcher. Hello. I'm JC lung comedian writer, a new labout stuff. And I'm a whole lot of fun in Joni Donohoe, I'm also a comedian also Royston an actor on fun. Thanks. This is all about cost, and it's called Josie Johnny having a baby with you. And if you can't tell from the till we are about to have a child really are and workless we really we have a whole host of questions that we're trying to ask like, how are we gonna pay for? This thing is to problem if you lose it how we gonna work around this thing, we're talking lots of famous people who happen tool. Ready be parents to help us on some of these questions and mill. JC Jenny having a baby with you is out now, and you can hear it on Stitcher on Kosovo wherever you get your poke us your only job in the beginning seated and change and hold TV change in holds. But you'd need to sleep as well storable.

Pat Brown US Jason Lusk scientist researcher Purdue University Kellie Fogarty Stanford cancer America FDA Mutton Pat Brown Nobel
Some Men Aren't Kings w/ Pat Brown

Rantin' and Ravin'

53:02 min | 1 year ago

Some Men Aren't Kings w/ Pat Brown

"This is a stand up New York labs production providing you podcast since two thousand thirteen toil away the hardware wow this is the ravens imprint waco go ahead. I'm here with Pat Brown. Everyone hello hi everybody welcome to the podcast Paddison rare form today I am I am hey you picked me on a good day. People today is perfect. Yeah you listen back act be legal was wasn't a good day looks like they have have fired Shane Gillis. They fired Omar God who he is yeah that's Noga yes it looks like they fired him Dale Cam from snl before he could even appear on an episode following following his racist joke controversy a rep from the hit eight NBC show said after exerts talked with Shane they decided he will not be joining US Snell for the new season we want SNL to have a variety of voices and points of view within a show and we hired Shane on the strength of his talent as a comedian and his impressive restive audition with SNL after talking with shame. We decided that he wouldn't need to okay. I what was what did he say he. Hey Dave was on a podcast like this like we're doing now. We're not casting and he he did some D. I did cheesy think about you know he did a Asian slur and then he also agent for the whole thing but what did it start with see eight what's he said that and then he did the end character and then in he no he said he said a thing and then he also did the the character or the impression of Asian Person and you know the more over the top you know not the not actual impression of somebody's Asian and I guess I guess he had some other things too and he has some other things revealed at us. He said things that were misogynistic and you know and it's that a whole white man shit where you know like I'm just being edgy. No Edgy is edgy is just the Ol- racism that's just been rebranded. It's the same fucking racism. Fuck fuck that I didn't twitter's me me to wear mad. If you've ever been on twitter he lays him. Sit down. Start cleaning out your twitter right now because they've come before for your ass I'm GonNa tell you what I said. I do not go to Asia restaurant across the street from me because they shit but it because they Asian is because they ain't shit bean across from my apartment building because I go to another Asia restaurant across around the corner and better. I don't know what I was GONNA. Fire Him. Wow here's the thing because I've also I heard this. This sort of comics are comics. He said what he said and Blase skip and Amanda Seal said something that I've been saying for eons John from her you so I I'm someone that that I respect greatly has put me on shows with her Irish hard her as she putting you is saying she has has a humongous platform so when she said a lot more people saw it than I said it and what I've been saying. Is that a now we're in this culture where people are trying to dice up like ocean was brave right like supposed to be able to say whatever he wants to say right and then they want to equate chapelle giving real life facts and real life opinions that matter sadder and means something and add up to a greater purpose that opens up a dialogue and a conversation they want to also bring that into like just like Shane Jane Gillis it's like like don't try to act like Disney chapelle trying to push pull up like he's God. I understand that because Chapelle no right but Bush Appel is earned that because he has had the visibility to have that to have access to that yeah I think we let's not let's not act like Chapelle some random off the street that everybody listening to. He's got a body of work that put him in a position chain where people listen to entertain the things that come out of his mouth and he's around it versus. Excuse me some kid that's making the thing and then everybody going well. He should be able to like you know it's everything's to PC. I taught I've said this about white man to white men for a long longtime. Oh it's an attack on white man you know old white Mary Kay do we feel like the villain that's because unique is the village no right no right I might let's talk about the future right now right now all the future the presently the Liga's Kit. You can't go well. Everybody call me because niggers was the you know what you confuse me while you niggers. I don't know if you've talk about the longtime now and you know Nigger nigger okay 'cause I even preface it by saying white niggers now he yes. You are the villain yeah. You can't say Shit because you saying shift away too long. That's why that's why here's the reality. The reality is I don't know what to fund 'cause I don't I don't have the space in my brain anymore to give niggers that much energy eighty. All I know is he to say nothing against black people because we constantly got somebody saying something gives us. Some Asian. People niggers ain't but around the corner okay you haven't you haven't gone out the out the gate at the very time you call in Chinese people the C. H. Were like nine thousand nine hundred seventy three that back when we didn't know no better right right no right and Maryland as you say that all the time and so I said to my when I was in grade school I was like what six or seven yeah that's and she said I said and my teacher said don't say that and I don't even know what the wasn't that it was a saying the Oh word okay and that and I was just saying like that and Oreo is about things from the Orient is not about people right but we didn't know no better right. What let me tell you something well? My teacher told me that because I wouldn't like running around saying it anyway. It was just so it was like oh I always as remember that about people hearing what they can't fucking say and then going okay. I'm not GonNa say it and moving the fuck on and it's all this bravery people trying to have where no one no but they keep trying to the brain be racist assists not rain rebranding racism. That's all it is edgy. He's just being fucking fucking a raises and nothing edgy about it Chewy who finally saying something that we talk about Asian people Jewish so brave her love of black women's blog woman. She's brain you taking on a black woman. You are a brave woman Jimmy. I was GONNA say this too is I was talking about I was on a show with a guy in a white guy and he was comic talking about other comics and some black friend of his and maybe comic encourage him to say the n word and he was like no and then he was his son is like nobody body is going to ever come up to us and B. Regretful that you did not say the inward when you're a black bars and when you're you're white man nobody's GonNa come to us like man you should go ahead and said that nobody said it and I saw followed him and I said thank you for saying that. I really appreciate that and I said I'm still mesmerized. Still particularly hung up on the people that like why can't can we say the word it is not a it's not even even a complicated response to that is because you heard black will feel when you say just how about that is a simple enough as a human being. Don't say the word to other two black people because it just hurts our feelings. What about that? That's just being human. How about that? That's the that's the most human take on this whole subject about the N. Word or anything racist hurt other people's feelings so say that being brave because you you dare to demoralized people diminish them. Let me just run down the the arguments hence. Why can I say Nigga Vase as Nigger to even try to dice ice up a word that we use and we have found a way to receive whatever power that we can from it however we use the word to use how we choose to use it also does it because here's the thing mostly when Nick is coin niggers? It ain't from racist place in it ain't with no heart E. N. No hard are in a place of diminishing someone. That's that's number one the number two part of it is this when you white people can do whatever the fuck they won't. They can call the cops more niggers. This is to negatively with fork and it's supposed to be spoons the eating soup with four what is I don't care as a sport the base. Why are they short? They're coming out of the thing they even Ligo they when when I don't want to wait I don't want everything when when you tell white people some white people if you tell them they can't have something when everybody's been telling them that they can't even though we know the cane that's where with a mind is just. Why can't I and I always say go ahead quit because there is consequences? You can say whatever you want talk to you. First of all my is and whiteboards called me and they're calling me Nigga bag and they go well. I'm not that well the I'm not that either I mean we could all keep going back and forth so you I'm calling you and then you call me Nigger nigger nigger okay. You're not okay nigger. It's it's about the go about that right now. I'M NOT GONNA sit here and try to fight nobody over word. I'm not gonNA fight you but I'm definitely gonNA tell a bunch of that. I know that will fight you. This you NIGGA. I am six seven picnickers right now. Just they waiting who you every morning they wake up Bagel is white person close to my Nigga. Today they ready to go to jail. They go to jail and it'll be a hero where they get to jail because they didn't get naked waiting to go to Sydney the won't that I mean I just I don't. I don't know I don't know but I always can tell where white person is and they mentality when they argued about whether they can say something or not when it comes to the N. Word and how old is he he's like twenty would four something like that and then so he's been so that's when you start he he'd been doing comedy for ten years and forgive me. If he's not twenty four he might be older younger coming in Oh. He has my thing sharing sir. My bigger issue is who is this nigger but my issue is. Why is this not a thing on? SNL Ain't nobody heard it isn't a good from no ASCA higher where what I'm saying is we don't all heard about these things that you know somebody. No you know no oh you don't I don't hang around with. That's the big issue. 'cause let's be honest. Let's be honest the we've been lying up into the Bianca Bay trying to bring white men back to SNL. That's facts we're white man you know killing it s snl us to have will farrow youth have a John Belushi white niggers and then now you just got to see winning. He was supposed to be a white male hope he cannot be the white male hope having a tarnish a racist one. That's why he had to go 'cause they need a white guy. In Ned that is on tar niche impeachable unimpeachable Leesville. He likes to wake up and say Nigga ten time before he even have his frosted flakes. I'm just saying this is my point was if he's twenty four some young like that and he said he's been doing for twenty four. I don't know he's twenty seven something anyway so he's been doing Matt me looking at yeah he he doing comedy two years and that's how he starts his comedy careers is playing with he bet on that that that he in ten years yes. That's what he said. That's about policy and here and here he's New York ten years. I don't know where he's out. Why don't you use thirty one? He's He's been doing yeah twenty one years and young and been doing racist if all the time so will you get twenty four house just young no lauren likes them. Young expressed by background sounded like new Lauren is always in my opinion anyway hiring people that remind him of his is youth so easy now these white boys get maybe to white girls and then he'll get a one other every seven years. Hopefully they'll l. Stay for twenty years so you won't have to hire others. At what point do I mean because a lot of times is certain things I mean. I don't want to Belabor this point. Could we talked about this before but it's like some people you know. They genuinely giving you an apology right. There's some shit. I'd want nothing to do with this baby. I don't want nothing to do with this. I don't know what the Hell is going on. I just was like 'cause it so much every day somebody saying some shit and and I know that when people would be saying shit about black people don't nobody opened their mouths right or they always tell us get over it so I just looked far enough to know about the black people okay bye because people don't be don't be they'll be champion for us. I mean what we want to really talk about racism. Let's talk about racism when it comes to the Asian community in the black community. How many times we gotta deal with Racist People Racist Asia people in our communities who don't want to serve us? Don't WanNa talk to US got got restaurants where we add delis where we always acting like criminals trailing us around you see videos of black women going into nail salons Korean nail salons. They treat black women like shit but they want their money. You see the demand accused. A little black boy is stealing and he wasn't and holding the boy at gunpoint like crazy life so when we talk about who ain't races. Let's talk about who eight races and who ain't doing some shit so you offended about what the fuck he said at that applies so you can be offended. I don't know I'm too busy trying to figure out when I'M GONNA get peace for my people to be sitting here about extracurriculars Shit. I don't know what he said but I know one thing the Asia people they got a hell of a damn mafia they got a hell of a damn. Try and we don't see we saw it. In the Golden Shower Eddie Murphy they say some crazy ages he better pick up nicely because then was shed show Shit Down Asia. People won't be fine line. They've got this new Golfer. SNL Now they own the figuring out where the fuck that's what my surprise was actually that he was let go of SNL cause. I ain't the NIGGA like diminished and get everybody all get. Oh you know it makes for forty years but if you did you say anything about another group day going to get rid of you and again like I said with this thing with SNL. It's just that if they're going GONNA have a white guy on that show that everybody's supposed to love and they want everybody to be able to love. That guy has to be charismatic. You look at him. He comes Golo Awkward. Oh look and be like Oh you know one of them. Kevin James kind of guys like Oh. He's looking at a white guy you know. The KLU says Nigga underneath his teeth. What I I like that Kinda Shit and now you we know that you say racist Shit by Nigga you we we about to lose no clorox clorox sponsorship authorship because you want to say some shit about Chinese people absolutely not absolutely not talk about about niggers like everybody else so you can keep your career? 'cause I told Ya when we didn't cancel. Paula Deen like we needed to. That bitch is still somewhere find chicken. We should make as sure she didn't have no motherfucking fingers left a fry nothing that she's sitting there calling people niggers sitting here how to fuck you calling somebody hi Nicholas and you're on your hair. Look through a damn air fry you call somebody niggers and Nicholas up here. I love me some Paula Deen. How the fuck you GonNa Love Paula Deen? OC To make the best recipe yeah. She doesn't stole all recipes from a feminist all slaves that was cooking for them. You breath finger licking good on one all the damn slave energy owns they had to go into that shit she out here making money off a Nigga talking about fee fucking Eh Nigga she should a rented her clothes and and cries she should've been at every fucking African American day parade across the country knowing that she calls somebody mighty niggers but she don't give a fuck because she no niggers is still going to support her. No matter what all politics but but so you're macy's though for black people like recipes if they stole in advocate recipes and we could write back then so she's the only mother write them down the rush limbaugh the Asian recipe. What was it white people during the day there was his recipes? You'll a recipe and I wouldn't oh some old white little barnacle in his fucking. I know how to fucking Fried Chicken again mixing them. Oh the peanut man now ooh peanut peanut. That's why he got us. Dan like he's so fucking Fred astaire. No Oh he of full fledged nigger nigger love peanuts with Pepsi. That's all my grandparents eight was and get them a bad revolution yeah and Pepsi's it was a black man that revolutionized subpoena. Yes Rick James Right who was it. You know what let's see if you really blagden you saying Nigga on them times. No what I'm telling you all this shit is black. KFC number remember remember chicken George. You remember the Restaurants Chicken George. No is that in Baltimore what nobody remember please. If you're Yana Look Chicken George Russell. I never know what might have been a northeast thing. I was from the Midwest. I don't know I've never heard of chicken George. They stole we charge charts on solar ray rice. We had charges. We Papa's scams noise right. It was a Maryland based chain that went out of business in Nineteen ninety-one. Do you take roles in Maryland can't even keep an open a chicken joint and eh point out. I was barely year old businesses with eighty nine ninety one. What did he want to build? Papa stolen damn rice recipe until he stole from them. I'm a problem with sponsorships coming right 'cause they. Once had that dirty Cajun Rice Chicken George and that was a full nigger he had he had roe and everything. Why are we gonNA have he was on the he was going to name? Eh had chicken in the name note chicken taking the fuck you me what is supposed to be a popsicle obstacle Papa's which has because they so busy stealing a recipes 'cause we're the popcorn's come on met prize came out one. I bet you they came out of ninety. One watched Jordan came out of eighty nine and ninety one papa's invented. Why Not Georgia's chicken? Why can't we get some ownership was a white guy be chicken? George said this chicken as I'm saying the what did we have some respect. Pub is opened in nineteen seventy two so enjoy the business. Mr Papa's come out what they dirty Cajun Rice. I'm telling you they stole it right from Chicken George Ooh this is a case for Scooby Doo and and the mystery van yet but we can't have get Hung Arabia. Yes I'm working out. I'm working Lisa lay down such a funny funny individual. That's the respect that is there. Thank you my love now. What you got for me pat over in a damn days you know has mcentee look up about the dirty rice and I know Popeye stove from chickens? Joe And you know I enjoy you as a friend that is funny. We can't have episode of Scooby Doo. What's going to be gone scooby who I love your brilliance a court and even though I'm moving on please get to the bottom of this race fiasco Michael Strahan facing off with anx over child support your new Michael Strahan's original wife was a white woman? I didn't know he had Joe. I didn't know that he had twins. They look like they're twins. Michael Strahan going to work going to war over his ex wife over child support see one more twin or was he or she not even getting what she was supposed to get. What's the deal is he delinked lynching? Mary Beck at one thousand nine hundred nine but they split the two thousand and six Denver. They took enjoy his recipe. I thought he was gay to the divorce. The divorce proceedings dragged offer months in the judge eventually watered her fifteen point three million dollars as set his child support at eighteen thousand thousands of dollars on mom but but bread black which is out here taken to the court they say Kevin Hart sued by sex partner for sixty million claims Kevin was in on record liaison. I mean let me tell you something. I don't know the big. He just got out of a full on accident. So this law sued the suit claims a Latino suit claims harder loud let me see Second Kevin Hart sex partner claims conspired with a friend of secretly recording cannon now she's Suing Him Oh Dallas Alex Okay claims in her lawsuit obtained by TMZ from TMZ by the way her two thousand seventeen encounter with heart and the Vegas Hotel Room was all all planned by heart and JT Jackson. That's Salad Nigga data was arrested for extortion says Kevin Hart was motivated by publicity. The need to get more especially with the upcoming comedy to this is the first I'm hearing about the sex tape. You heard about this. Yeah I heard about it looks yeah. The sex tape was the reason that he had apologized to his wife and audit new as they call him on tape kissing. Some girl somewhere knows they didn't do a good the job because if you remember it meant that you know about their Mack Matt led to the Audio on the heart allowed Jackson to the Cosmopolitan hotel so he could set up hitting video recording would do all that and she actually looking into the camera so was she talking about she camera she could just be looking getting the tour the mirror. Everybody likes to look at the Mirror sometimes when they get done gotTa Shit you you you have a mere that has actually records. I just want to record myself. I'd rather record myself you. Have you ever done that. Have you ever been in a sexy yeah recorded myself yourself or was anybody else in there. See you masturbate in there. That's what I have a tape with someone. Yes they have the decency you hope oh no. I no the way to talk to him. I said listening just way. I love the going you see. I think hello you remember I spent a lot of rag file too so I got a bunch of naked pitches all she though I'm protected to my staples on VHS nobody over there rewire VHS westbound having church services how many people going to church. I will go because the the reason that I used to go to a black charge. Anyway was the music. The music by the Lord is going for the music. Oh that's right. We Know Laura the Lord necessarily Integer you think that Lord is just an update. This is Mike off Please because I don't know you can do that any other podcasts but here we are not doing what I'm what am I. I know what it continued to be on this podcast. What am I saying stop? What am I right now Yoyo as haven't been in church? That's why you can't serve two Oh church yesterday. You said You'd before yesterday allies Negro I yeah that's so that's so the Lord ain't just in charge there right anyway. Eh I hate when I hate when logic defeats me. Are you going to that tariff. You say you're going. What's what's hurt? I will go go to the server. The music is everything music. Music is spirit moves ago. I don't know I'm getting older. I don't no half these people. Does anybody know who a kyri irving is. Kyrie Irving is a basketball player seems like he's off the market. He legallais he got a girl he engaged with so congratulations 'cause they. They were upset with him when they him and Lebron won the championship anyone on a yacht and now the women on the white women yeah but I don't know what we talked about this last podcast black women or delusional if they think the black men are not gonNA alienate and leave them high and dry when they go to make money that's that's how they think they make money by disassociate themselves with black women of course he won't be in a yacht and of course justice girls not a black girl this time so we know when black men tried to get money and it's time to get money they will leave black with a high and dry getting a the job on community service will listen Huffman Shit is crazy because they had the big doing full months and they took it down as two weeks a nasty just doing community community service. Are we gonNA ever get them so she didn't go to jail at all. She might be spending like a week day now they they originally says she's doing fourteen days in jail federal so this even you know she's actually going to Federal Jail Ah Federal Prison for for for fourteen days yeah but I'm just saying fourteen days just like he's going to get out and tell her friends. I'm I've been you know like stop. Nobody in federal prison for fourteen days what about the black women that served served years in jail because they were trying to get their children into good schools and good school districts. If she got fourteen days we need to be pulling up and we need to be vindicating these black women who did the same thing to a lesser degree this bitch that's all I'm worried about fourteen days. You know what sometimes you just gotTa. Throw a bath and go God gotTa handle some of this because we're not getting the right well. I I lean on the side of John Legend in he said this and I think it makes perfect sense. This is what I'm on board with it it it does it serves no real purpose for her to do years in jail for this but we I'm not. I don't want her to do more years two years in jail just because she did this thing I want everybody to do less time in jail and and also I agree with you those women that have given their own children in school Gouda got years in jail. They should be out right now but I also going forward. I don't want anybody to do a jail. Cell Celt jail sentence for for this type of this type of crime make these school systems inherently equal so that we won't. I'll have to try to try challenge you to try to get you into fucking Ivy League school. We can get you into a say School University of say Arizona WanNA whatever whatever if it's a great school and you won't have the tug and pull that people are going through all these rigmaroles guided them in these Ivy League schools I just even but black women they were trying to get their kids into better public schools so make public schools better. They don't have to do all that shit then have to go through that but I don't think the answer is making her go to jail for longer sentences. I think the the the goal is to improve the schools and decriminalize some of these some of this dumb shit a second. Antonio Brown accuser comes forward. Oh Oh I read the iron. I don't know what's going on so you enlighten me. I'll read the transcripts issue. That motherfucker is something first of all the the outfit that I'm looking at the negative and now look like I can't stand and win a super. There's a short set set. Do you believe he did it. I believe that her her recollection of what happened was true is seems credible. Brown initially accused of misconduct. I buy woman he knew from College Brown's former personal trainer filed a federal lawsuit accusing the all pro wide receiver raping her on multiple occasions bound out brown vigorously denied the allegations and a second accuser came forward the woman who spoke to Sim condition of anonymity said Brown exposed himself to her when he asked her are to come to his house to paint his portrait after they met at a charity softball game in Pittsburgh the woman they wait a black the the the the first woman that is accused him of rape and she didn't accuse him of rape twice she accused him of sexual assault twice and they've been on each other since they were freshman in college they met at a Christian organization and and so she's very much into guiding spirit and she also had a boyfriend at the time and what she black what she's okay she's black but and that's also why a lot of people are coming forward to because of course you you accused a black man. Even if you're a black woman no you don't bring down our our kings but it's some men and king so you just a good fucking football player. Let's call this kings. The Most Papa statement you said in Detroit woman faces charges for Shooting Life Partner Eleven Times Trauma Roy woman faces attempted murder charges after shooting her life partner eleven times including four times in the vagina. Oh it was a woman on woman. We'll oh baby when they say partner. You know like they get married but they've been living together again. We get this in about twenty years. All fat made attorney together because I haven't haven't given up on myself is twenty eight to eleven including four times the China now unless you shoot me once you've met them shots another three shots better coming repetition like other three shots better be right there on the tip of that bullet on the tip of that gun bitch because I'll be there. I'll let you keep shooting me and my vagina now while saying she let that her vagina what you're saying right now while list said way try to jump don't jump ahead of these Santa Rosa stories stories because they're trying to get onto next thing about P. diddy but we already they hold on a second Wallace said Tiffany Wallace tiffany wallace shot her after she he asked for divorce after twelve years see that's the thing you asking for divorce and they're going to ask you walk wit. My bags packed meese already knew because I will be closing my eyes in in a new reality as what divorce over the phone care you bet text Kefir you video chat shit right there. That's eight view from a hospital. That's fucking Escobar it okay from a hospital bed now. How I'll try to get the story to bitten hospital bed? She's survived eleven shots for China but soon sing is still doing you. ooh That's a bad shot or this. Woman got an extra strength for China vaginal walls Straw yellow but I'm telling you a check and take fingers showed up in her purse is definitely taking bullets. Eight women takes say fingers. It's not really a big part of four play this everything every no ice. Don't let everybody seeing what are you talking about us. Now had to put his finger. He never had one of the big to put it in in the put his mouth buddy guy he can do that off. Aw I WANNA. Have somebody criminally fingers when they got a personal Jess Dick would veins veins on it stick in pulsating feel his my wall ask. Why would I have with dirty fingernails sales scraping my walls and I am? I'm even more weird lights even embed are you fucking got dodie share. A woman is always going to keep our fingers better than a man wow now because I don't doubt there ain't all bitches out here getting fingers duggan before play it. I don't know your sex is boring because my line you fucking nuts the foul malls else me can't keep up with how many times I wanna get orgasms so that is actually added addition to the sex four play hands fingers mouth house hands is the most more most effective sexual too you can use let me tell you and this book like a bitch that don't do oh. was I tell you what would like to have a have a good strong the mine you would choose fingers when there's a perfectly good media penis pain gene. Why have a salad when you're GONNA have a stake at the end of the meal knew that the the Dick is the state then the finish what I'm saying the fingers? Here's our the salad bitch so we are leading up to the state. I don't eat salad dated now now. As why does a Har- because you don't I don't WanNa sit on your finger it out of my and see what happens when it comes over here. You know what else like that on me. That's you met Humana somebody else you ain't mad at me with somebody else's definitely people. She's mad at me. She's he's mad somebody else to take it out on me. Everybody is agreeing with me to like two people agree with you but that's because they whack corporations are racing biological women females from all legal legal documents to be more inclusive of all two hundred plus genders swear to two hundred plus gender. I don't know what that is. I don't know what that it was two hundred plus gender. Did you find out about the dirty Rice Matt. I saw menu though look to even the seventies included the rice on it so to really ninety tasted saying I'll let me type in what is two hundred with a plus sign gender gender identity cisgenders Rosa term describe okay gender what other four genders would've okay. I don't have time I it's too much. Let's see I got. I got to skip this article. 'cause I didn't realize it was two hundred plus agendas and the last thing I needed somebody tell me I'm ignorant about something so we will put a bookmark in that yeah sean combs comes and Laurie Harvey cuddle up in VIP at revolt after party now that his son's ex girlfriend right yeah but let's talk about they show all the black men at this party women right but all in I told you black men trying to they want him. They WANNA start a revolution but they don't WanNa do no black woman. I'd say that I'll tell you that and this and then let's talk about the fetishes station of black men with these young girls too because it becomes when I look at P. DIDDY is like sure he lost Kim Porter Wright who I mean we don't know her. Are we going to be way. We don't know her. Are We know what we've seen of her and it seems like she was a beautiful woman. Let's say she couldn't have been a bitch in their head propped. Whatever which it seemed like a beautiful woman is beautiful but I mean like everybody talk very highly of her to talk crazy about her character? Talk Very highly of her and this is the woman that he sort of whatever kind of relationship ed her it definitely wasn't leading nowhere to marriage because she had to tolerate him dipping out her numerous times one of which is him different out with cassie. SC who thought was weird so when you talk about a lot of these needs to be quiet about R Kelly is 'cause a lot of these things these are Kelly you understand like when cassie got signed with P diddy and all that shit she was a young girl and then he wanNA nobody ever seen an album from her but Dan he wouldn't jumping up on top of her having sex with her and fucking her and being relationship with her right so now well. That's what we say we all saw it whether they talked about it. Now we see now they broke up. They never said they was in the race but if you gotta break it up from a Nigga Nigga okay and we don't and then they go well all the girls he'd been. We're kinda looked like they run. Some Gay Shit on P. diddy where the girls he W- it they all Kinda got no brassing this they kind of like boys right so they equate that with that when I'm like regardless of whether the Nigga not because that's that's not my concern my concern. My concern is we got men are here trying to stay in the glory days by sucking the youth out of young girls now I don't know when he started having sex with cassie. SC I'm not here to speculate whether he did it when she was underage or not. I know that she was underage. When she got signed with him and they took yeah see something she was like? Maybe fourteen or fifteen may be this. Is All speculation 'cause. I definitely can't have them trying to shit but what I will say. It's all speculation you you okay but you think you had a chance. What did he no? I don't think I had a chance with. I don't even want no chance with diddy because you would have to put that because because we're responsible texture as well. I'd have to underage non black woman to have a chance with diddy no but you know what it is the second you start. I don't know if they're talking in jest when they say what the fuck this communism. I don't know if it's ingested well but every every time a woman has an opinion about a man hit man especially a black man you bid up angry you wanted him. I promise you you know P. Diddy nor do I think he did he want him is not a that didn't even come into my mind. What I WANNA know is we thought about a fifty plus? Let me roll man who is still out here getting with women who are mid Selena undeveloped. That's always been a thing that hasn't changed. I mean the power dynamics the issue that makes it more even more attainable is because as you have power you have power to take care of her and these young women just like we all when we were young women most of us. We you know you the U. Financially unstable you you. You're financially. you know you. You have a deficit so young I I mean a successful very very known celebrity of course in a lot of ways that could help you but into two Yom's point the seas young your brain. Don't even develop until you twenty five years old so it's it's like but you see how easy it is again. I don't know what this person's comment. I don't know if it was ingest or whatever but what happens is when you try to talk real shit then negus tried to deflect right on mothership. That's the reality is if a woman talks about the issue who is that these men are trying not to deal with women who are going to challenge them and be that they may not be able to control because because as a woman gets older as people get older in general you start to have you start to substantiate your life even more right so it's easy easy for me to be a nigger and get some young girl who likes the limelight back and give it to her. You know probably some Daddy. Issues wants a daddy figure in her life even as right and control the situation and then when a woman your age or closer to your age calls you want less make her that old obits the issue because they know also tell you like oh you got a property what they tell the young girls like oh well you know these hating on you and sure enough this surely as rush sunrises there are women that hate on women who are young and have youth and especially doing things in their youth that they were not able to also orenda every narrative right but that's not every narrative that rats the case when women older me and also understand that a a lot of these relationships are not based on whether this young woman is a person what she has the the hurt hurt value is based on her youth. Her values based on her beauty is not because she is a value in her as a person as if you know what I'm saying say older woman and I when I say older fucking twenty-eight man thirty what about that I mean those houses still young people you don't have the same amount of power over them. You can't manipulate them as easily and as and and you'd have to get to know when you're older woman that is an I'm saying older meaning over twenty five older woman also desires desires more from you as a person yeah and so a young girls you manipulate them easier because they're not because because they're not mature. I want to end because we gotta end now. hustlers is on track hustles in the movie with Jennifer Lopez says Izzo on track to May twenty five million thirty million opening week. I heard it was really good. You WanNa go see it yeah I want to but I gotta bring him Chewy because he says does he want to go with me because Liz. Oh in a you know chewy like some he'll say dark chocolate cities a nice little chocolate shoe. We go make up artist. All these black men out here all these Kyrie's out here that date white women chewy she bring them bring black like women raised black women and let it be known that if the Kyri urban who I don't know is love with that white woman that he w- read or look like a Spanish woman God bless him okay and they union and our hope they go forth and prosper would love but if he's doing this because he got problems with black women issues with black women he got problems misleading alone. Let them get on workout at all workout so problems with the world. He's a flat earth smuggling leaves. The world is flat so he got a lot of issues beyond that pat that we can. We find you this week coming up this summer. We're GONNA be. La next week extra next week next week. I will be somebody club. I'm just getting getting back and I'm just trying to get get schedules out there and whatever but I'm working on my my two thousand twenty December twenty twenty minute special I'm giving myself a year and a couple of months to get it down and so I am you'll see me out their whole lot everywhere actually so check me out I'm do. I'm been on a twitter. A lot lately been on instagram a lot lately so I'm back back people the Ladies and gentlemen. I'm so glad fingers in the building always thank you for your contribution and making sure the sound quality is great on the podcasts. We look forward to you guys. We love you. We appreciate you talk to you

twitter snl P. diddy partner Asia Pat Brown Maryland Shane Jane Gillis Disney chapelle Chewy SNL New York Paula Deen Michael Strahan Mack Matt Asian Person China Dan Kevin Hart
Meat: Breaking a 2.5 Million Year Old Habit

Trailblazers with Walter Isaacson

26:29 min | 8 months ago

Meat: Breaking a 2.5 Million Year Old Habit

"From mid management and Weekday Nineteen thirty one was not not a good year in the remarkable career Winston Churchill. His Conservative Party have been defeated two years earlier and he had lost most of his American investments. The stock market crashed so the future British prime minister we cast himself as a right wrote. A couple of hefty historical tone accepted assignments from popular magazine. One of these commissions came from Strand magazine which asked him to write a speculative asset for the December nineteen seventy-one edition on what the world might look like in fifty fifty years judge made dozens of predictions about robots and the triumph man over nature. But perhaps his boldest boldest prognostication was that by nineteen eighty-one people would be eating. Synthetic meet run entirely away. We shall escape the absurdity of growing a whole chicken in order to just eat the breast or the manx he wrote. He predicted elected. These parts could be grown from animal cells. There would no longer be any need to slaughter animals to get meat and those new foods would be practically practically indistinguishable from the real thing. Winston Churchill's prediction seemed like science fiction in nineteen. Thirty one. It but not anymore. It took thirty years longer than he thought but lab me is now here. We're on the cusp of a meatless. Meet Eight Revolution Walter. Isaacson and you're listening to the trailblazers and original podcast from Dell technologies abundant protein rich meat native third that we are like basically tender grandkids. AM flavorful meat. Contributes to the wellbeing and strength of people in our country is good and pure Alaska. Paul says links. Thanks take back by the insurance uncle. Sam himself two and a half million years. That's how long it's been since humans. I have been eating meat from animals and wild today. Scientists are warning that we have to stop eating meat. In order to lessen the impact impact of climate change historians tell us was a different period of climate change. That drove us to eat meat. In the first place. Martin's Rosca is the author of Meat hawked the history and science of our two point five million Europe session with meat. So what happens. Two and a half million years ago is that the climate has changed the Savannah where our ancestors lift at the time became aimed drier and hotter and many plant foods that our ancestors were relying on became much less available especially from January to April which was does the particularly dry season so they couldn't basically find the foods and the leaves that they were eating habitually on the other hand would became became more available more abundant was meat because they were suddenly many more grazing animals so with more grazing species there are also more that animal flying around basically so there was meet lying around and our ancestors tried and discovered. It's you know it's good. It's highly caloric full of fat. And they started eating ants. Humans are not actually well suited biologically the meat jaws and teeth. Don't have the strength to bite raw meat of an animal caucus so these earliest meters use primitive tools to cut the meat plus the bones of get it would take hundreds of thousands of years more before we went from being scavengers eating whatever meat we found lying on the ground becoming hunters the most sophisticated tools and then many more thousands of youth before me with Cook over an open fire and all all the while the bodies and minds of those early humans evolved into the modern form. Something that many researchers bleep. You never would've happened. They hadn't been consuming meat and the reason for that is that meat for our ancestors was a very high quality polity food loaded of color because of fat but also full of minerals and vitamins. And because it was such a high quality food could power our brains human brains are very energy inefficient so they only weighed about two percent of our body weight our brains but they they take up to twenty five percent of our resting energy and power such a brain you need a lot of energy and before our ancestors started eating meat they had very big guts because you know digest. Low quality food with lots of fiber for example leaves or grass. You really the really big got. What about when we started eating meat? The food was much denser in calories so the gut could shrink. This freed energetic resources that way used for the growing brain this why some scientists say that's meet made us human by the Middle Ages meet had become a very popular food food but it was a luxury enjoyed mostly by the rich and powerful. Think about the story of Robinhood robinhood. What crime was he being accused of? He allegedly kill the deer and the kings farce presumably so he could share the bounty Johny. What's a common folk? Their Diet was still largely made up plant protein because they were denied access to land where they might be able to hunt game but all that changed when the common folk again to make their way to the new world. Roger Horowitz is the the author of putting meat on the American table taste technology and transformation the early British colonists the ordinary ordinary people came over the speculators. There are people down there look. They're looking for a new start for various reasons. Life in England had not worked out for them and they're looking to do better so they are aspiring people and they come over here and the forest are full of wild game and the cane doesn't own them is there's all sorts of opportunities to eat meat and they love it and the opportunity to forage if the forest opportunity to kill wild animals. Eat them amazing. Amazing to have this opportunity in America meat may not have been a primary driver of settlement in the colonial period nor later on when large numbers of European immigrants came aimed will have chores but it was part of the attraction in the nineteenth century when you have immigrants coming over like the Irish the Germans early nineteenth century. The availability of meat gets commented on the letters that they write home. The Irish especially the idea they can come to New York City in the eighteen forties eighteen fifties after after starving in Ireland and they can eat beef three times a day is astounding. There they write back and people don't believe them. This can't be true. Not It's true we can do that so this is with an immigrant population a laboring population coming at a later. Point that you see this being referenced but it becomes part of the immigrant an experience that they are able to have access to meet by the beginning of the nineteenth century residents of New York City. They were eating about one hundred and fifty pounds of meat per person each year in the nineteen thirties and forties meat consumption except not for lack of one but for lack of access. I because of the Great Depression and then during World War Two when it became came the subject of government rationing but when the good times returned after the war ended so too did Americans appetite. For me Roger Horowitz. They're not able to get meat because they can't there are the money or it's being scarce it all that they haven't done it because they've decided or because you know they've learned or taught something different they just can't get it. It's a frustrated desire. And so so why would that go away. Why would that happen that you could that you couldn't get it especially when all the nutritional establishment and everybody who's talking to the kids in schools in in home economics and everything like that is saying? Well you really should have more meat because it's good for you so there's no there's no pushback no opposition to that idea that you should should have more meat when you have the resources to do so today the US processes more than a hundred billion pounds of meat and poultry every year. The industry employs more than half a million people accounts for over a trillion dollars of economic output. That's more than five percent percent of the US GDP so taking on that industry by asking Americans eat less meat but that'd be something for the faint of heart but by the end of the century. Several brave souls step forward and we're advocating precisely that the first front line in the battle against meet over the health effects of excessive meat consumption as a result since the mid nineteen seventies. Many Americans cut back back on that consumption of red meat and began eating more chicken which was seen as leaner and safer but by around the turn of the century a a second front open that posed a fundamental challenge to meets primacy in the American Diet Drouin research that that linked animal based Diet to climate change environmental degradation and the collapse of biodiversity. My Name is Pat Brown and I'm the founder and CEO impossible foods in two thousand nine. Pat Brown was a fifty. Five year-old biochemist at Stanford University when he decided added that is new mission in life would be to find a way to stop people from relying on animals for their meat. At the time I was a professor in the medical scored load and I had a sabbatical and I was asking myself. What's the most important problem that I can help solve in the world but I discovered discovered somewhat to my surprise that the use of animals as a food technology it's one of the largest sources of greenhouse gas emissions in the world? It's by far the biggest user of freshwater in the world by far the biggest polluter of water in the world and probably even more significant than all of that it occupies more than forty five percent of the entire land surface of earth so an Area larger than North America South America Europe and Australia combined is actively being used right now raising animals for food and and largely because of that huge land footprint it is by far the biggest driver of what is now a catastrophic collapse in global biodiversity. And it's almost entirely due to habitat destruction and degradation by animal agriculture culture on land and overfishing in the ocean so what it comes down to is the most destructive technology on earth is the use of animals to produce food so Pat Brown's had outdoor place animal based meat was something that consumers would still be attracted to without the the environmental consequences. So how do you solve the problem. You have to reframe it and the problem is not that people are consuming. These foods that we're making them the wrong way that we're using this technology this prehistoric technology. That's incredibly inefficient. Resource inefficient and destructive live on a global scale namely animals to turn plants into meat and dairy products and fish. We got this embedded assumption that the the only way you can make meet is by feeding an animal and then cutting it into pieces but in fact from a consumer standpoint the value proposition of meat has nothing to do with with Howard made. It's just that it is delicious. In a particular way is a dense source of protein and iron and micro nutrients. It's it's convenient affordable familiar. So we have to figure out a better technology a better way of producing these foods that the world is going to continue to love the vastly more sustainably and for this to work. We have to make foods that outperform for the consumer all the ways that matter for the Consumer Pat Brown John was convinced that meat substitutes derived from plants rather than animals could appeal to most meat eaters but only only if he could find the answer to one critical question. The most important scientific question in the world is what makes me delicious because if you can can answer that question and understand well enough that you can create foods that deliver that deliciousness with much more sustainable ainable ingredients. You have solved the greatest threat that are plant has probably ever faced Pat Brown on started impossible foods in California in two thousand eleven and gathered a group of scientists to try to solve the deliciousness. Committal one of the things that is apparent. When you think about me flavor particularly when you're thinking about what happens when you cook meat is that you have this dramatic transformation of the flavor profile and you have in the process this explosion of flavor and aroma? That's unlike anything you get from cooking a plant to me that suggested that there was a catalyst that produces hundreds of novel molecules. That weren't present in the product beforehand. Impossible's scientists decided to focus on a molecule called which is found in the muscles of cal. They believe is primarily responsible for giving beef. It's yeasty bloody savory flavor by Augmon implants they could create a product that looked and tasted like meat by two thousand. Sixteen Brown was ready ready to bring his impossible burger to the market. It's main ingredients will wheat potato protein and oil from coconuts and sunflower. I wish he essentially place the week. The soy which is lower in fat and she but he is. He boasts that his Burger Duggar requires eighty-seven percent less water than a beef. Burger uses ninety six percent less land and generates eighty nine percent you a greenhouse gas emissions and it performs well in blind taste tests with mediators the company has attracted hundreds of millions of dollars from investors like Bill Gates and it is valued at about two billion dollars. It's burgers are available it over seventeen thousand thousand restaurants including Burger King and white castle. Impossible isn't the only plant based bugger in the market. Its biggest competitor is beyond meat another California company that is already selling its products in grocery stores something that is still a year or two away for impossible Pat Brown says he welcomes anyone who shares his mission when he started impossible foods. Eight years ago he said his goal was to completely replace animals in the food. Chain by twenty thirty five essentially is on track to do that. But can you really take on one trillion dollar industry. I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't think the answer was yes I absolutely do. There's been many many many instances instances in history where a very well entrenched seemingly ubiquitous and formidable industry has been replaced in a matter of decades. Aides are even less by fundamentally better technology that does a better job of delivering. What consumers value and in a way doesn't matter or how big and formidable and politically powerful you are if someone is doing a better job of satisfying consumers? You know you're out of luck. The scope and scale of Pat Brown ambition is nothing short of staggering. Convincing Americans. Give up animal base. Meet in in favor of meat. Derived from plant will be hard enough but meat. Consumption is growing up around the world as global income levels rise in the early one thousand nine hundred eighty s the average person in China. It about thirty pounds of media but today China's rising middle-class consumes an average of nearly a hundred and forty pounds and not. Everyone is convinced that offering a plant based alternative will ultimately get billions of meat eaters. There's to change their habits. They argue that the only thing that can replace meat is meat. I'm Mark Post Post. I am chief scientific officer of Motza meet startup that aims to commercialize cultures mute remembered the prediction that Winston Churchill may back in nineteen thirty one. One that could be grown in a lab. You might say that Mark Post is a man who's taken up that challenge. poche was a professor fester in the medical school at University in the Netherlands in two thousand and sex when he was asked to help out with a study that was being funded by the Dutch government lament the idea was to place muscle cells in a nutrient rich serum and encouraged US cells to grow into muscle so like fibers are many medical applications for this. What but the Dutch researchers looking beyond Madison? They he believed that. If you can turn animals stem cells into muscle fibers. You can actually grow synthetic meet in the lab. It could be the best has to both work real neat. That doesn't require a real animal now. I thought it was a great idea and I was also ready involved in tissue engineering for medical purposes and the more I learned about the problems with meat production in the next thirty five years. The more enthusiastic I became about this entire project not only scientifically but also for its suicidal impact. There were scientific hurdles that still had to be overcome but the main obstacle was money. They would need lots of it to scale up produced cell base meat for commercial mass consumption. It didn't help when in two thousand hasn't nine. The Dutch government withdrew funding for the project and basically the language that the government used. We don't see any commercial interest from companies companies in this kind of triggered me. I said well you know this is such a great idea. We need to be able to get this across the general population. So let's make make a sausage from a pig presented to the press while the pig is honking around on the stage and so that was kind of the image was for me was a very unusual kind I thought because I I just basically was a biomedical scientists but I was so frustrated. Is You know W- we'll show them. We needed quite a bit of money to do that. That wasn't really lying around so we had to wait until we got that money and then kind of out of the blue. That was a year and a half or two years later the office of Sergei Brin approached. Just me and said we want to talk to you about this project that you're doing and when we come over Sergei brand is one of the co founders of Google but while marked post had of course heard of people you've never heard of Sergei Graham so when Brennan's representative came came calling post had no idea who he was dealing with post told his visitor about his idea of creating a so based sausage and holding a press conference or the pig on the stage and the representative of Sergei Brennan said. Oh Yeah we will support that. How much money do you need and body set off a couple plus million would be fine Indian? We got the money that we needed to make. That event happened so suddenly Mark Post I had all the money he needed to make his cell meet prototype and the money came with only one string attached tugay brand. Dan wanted a hamburger on the stage. Not a sausage well that was basically a not a request but the demand from Sergei Britain. If you're going to do this it has to be a hamburger not sausage. It's an American thing and that was actually quite fortunate. I think because environmental impact impact of beef is actually a lot higher than that of pork and so on August fifth twenty thirteen. The first I sell Burger was ready to be unveiled at a press conference in London. The event was carried live around the world and included a taste test by food critic. Who of course very gratifying moment? That you because you you have been living up to this for two three years and to finally make that happen was was the big thing so I was pretty happy throughout. It was also a little bit nerve wracking because we had no idea how to tasters basically would respond onto it if they would spit out. Say Yuck this is nothing like we expected or if they would be at least somewhat positive about it we had no idea so that was nerve wracking thing but all in all the whole event went pretty well and I wasn't even noticeably nervous but somebody told me I was tapping my fingers continuously on a desk so Hawaii. Apparently I was the world's first. Cellular Burger got good reviews from the food critic but most of the press coverage focused on cost cost not taste the price tag on. That Burger was three hundred and thirty thousand dollars so mark mark post needed to find a way to drive down costs significantly or his cell Burger would remain an interesting science experiment with no commercial potential and more importantly no potential to solve the environmental challenges caused by animal based meat production. So one of the things that makes cell culture extremely expensive is factors Proteins that stimulate cells to grow and day cost like a million euro per gram. Unfortunately you need only very very small amounts but still if you start to grow at large scale. This is US prohibitive but I learned pretty quickly that end feed industry in a completely different industry not the biomedical part. But the feed industry people people are making similar proteins with similar technology for five. You're a programmer for Europe Aram. I thought well if we can do that. And I and the price of the cell culture drops tremendously and then we started to look at more components of this feat for cells. And we realized realized that if you source differently and you make it a little bit of a different composition you can actually make these very cheap type of Takashi in two thousand fifteen mark post started his own company called motion meet to continue his quest to develop affordable cellular alert meet at a commercial scale. Today he says the price of a Cell Burger is down to about fifteen eighteen dollars still too expensive song grocery three stores but he hopes to be able to increase meat production to the point. We can offer it in some higher end restaurants but then a couple of years post and Brown a two of the trailblazer. We're trying to address the enormous enormous environmental challenges. We are facing by leading what could be doric transformation in our eating at indeed indeed the biggest dietary revolution since humans for started eating me two point five million years ago. I'm Walter Walter Isaacson and you've been listening to trailblazers original podcast from Dell technologies for more on any of the guests on today's show. You can head to our website at Dell technologies dot com slash trailblazers. Thanks for listening.

Pat Brown Meat US Winston Churchill Walter Walter Isaacson Dell Burger Roger Horowitz Strand magazine Conservative Party professor California New York City Alaska China England Pat Brown John
Fake Meat Designed for Carnivores

Slate's If Then

40:57 min | 1 year ago

Fake Meat Designed for Carnivores

"Welcome to if Dan the showboat technology is changing our lives and our future. I'm broke laser. And I'm Kashmir home. Hey, everyone. Welcome to if then we're coming from slate and future tense partnership between late Arizona State University and new America, we're recording this on the morning of Tuesday, April ninth and first of all like to welcome. My co host today who is Kashmir ho she's an investigative reporter Gizmodo who's been digging into privacy and technology conundrums for many years. Kashmir. Thanks for co hosting. Thanks for having me as a guest host. Yes. Superfund? So on today's show, we're going to talk about a British proposal to regulate content on social media sites. And then we'll talk about Kashmir. Its recent investigation into Airbnb efforts to kick white nationalist off its platform ahead of a national summit in Tennessee. After that, we'll talk to Pat Brown CEO and founder of impossible foods to talk about his eerily realistic fake meat. That's trying to pitch a sustainable alternative to the environmentally destructive meat industry. And as always will end with don't close my tabs, some of the best things we saw on the web this week. That's all coming up on if then. So we're going to start by discussing some news that came out Sunday that UK regulators shared. It's a new proposal that would require social media companies like Facebook and YouTube from Google to be much faster and more proactive about removing harmful content on their platform. The proposal is very wide ranging. It covers insuring news presented isn't rife with misinformation, combating hate speech cyberbullying child exploitation. What else like extreme violence like what we saw in New Zealand. Right. And this isn't the first country to do this in Germany last year. There was a measure that was passed that could charge companies up to sixty million if they don't delete legal content quickly and then in Australia last week. Are you familiar with this? They passed a law that says that social media executive Scott should be put in jail, if content isn't removed quickly enough Yannis isn't entirely new. I remember years ago that YouTube. Executives. We're going to be arrested. If they went to Italy because there was a YouTube video of a kid being bullied that they want to take down. So it's not exactly new. But it does seem like governments around the world are very interested in regulating the tech companies right now. Yeah. And I mean, Mark Zuckerberg even said that he's open to some form of speech and content. Regulation to be put on Facebook from from US regulators, which might run into some thorny first amendment issues. I haven't read the whole hundred page white paper from the UK parliament. And this is from Damian Collins who is the same the same lawmaker who seized all of those documents from the lawsuit against Facebook and made those public. He's been very interested in going after Facebook. It's a one hundred page white paper with a lot of ideas in it about regulating them. I've only read the three page executive summary. But it seemed kind. Like, basically, the UK wants to eliminate you know, the kind of section two thirty protections that tech companies have in the US where you know, as a publisher of information, you're not responsible for what your users do. And I think the UK is saying we want the companies to be more responsible for what their users are doing. So it would be a real turnabout from the way that U S law works and this principle in the US that tech companies are not liable for what users post has really allowed internet companies to grow into the mammoths that they are because you know, who would want to invest in a company in the in the nineties or in the early odds, if they could get sued for whatever, you know, any random person said on their platform, it kind of gave the these companies the security to get large investments and to grow these big platforms. It also gave them the security to kind of look the other way when their platforms were being used for hate. So this is all kind of boiling over now at least in a eight of different countries. One thing that the UK proposal does. Is is suggest the creation of a new regulatory agency in the country to help ensure that companies comply, which I just can't even imagine how compliance or really looking. I mean, these companies can't regulate themselves. They there's just too much content being produced all the time. I think it was like one point five million copies of the video of the the massacre New Zealand in the first day after it the first twenty four hours after it happened was removed from Facebook. Right. I mean, it's just a a mammoth undertaking. Yeah. I, you know, I just think that increasingly I mean, they're horrible things that are happening in in the world, and we see them reflected through the prism of technology companies because this is how these things are being captured and spread. And I I think that lawmakers are just hoping there's a way to stop it if they can get, you know, a tech companies to come up with the right filter. The right. You know, the right kind of ban. But. It's going to be hard. I think a lot of people are critical of this proposed regulation, but like a little bit like we're Goldilocks where every time government proposes some new regulation. We're like, well, this one is too broad and this one we don't know what the unintended consequences are going to be until it's I think it's very hard to to come up with regulation. Everyone thinks is perfect. Yeah. And we're trying to fix something. And you know, after the toothpastes is kind of out of the tube. And it's it's really difficult in the US. There's not like a proposal sitting on the shelf that people are are really rallying behind. But there was a hearing this morning in the House Judiciary committee abouts kind of hate groups use of Facebook and YouTube in how the son of the social media sites have dealt with them. And we've seen a number of, you know, hearings where lawmakers have brought up this issue. But, but there's really no heart proposal that that's being pulled off the shelf in that people are kind of rallying behind like I said, so you know, who knows? The US is going to address this one thing that people have brought up as of course, just limiting the power of these companies by making them smaller, which would be an antitrust action. But again, they're still not really a hard proposal that people are able to Deseo K. This is what we're gonna do. This is how we're going to execute antitrust. And antitrust is just so underused in the US, it's such an atrophied policy that I don't think people even know where to start or at least lawmakers don't even seem sure of of how to how they would begin such a proceeding. Yeah. I I don't know what we're gonna see I feel like in the US usually comes through either the idea that will have privacy legislation that there's this big push right now to pass a big privacy Bill in part to undermine the the pretty strong privacy law that was passed here in California or this idea of antitrust action. And we've seen it with in presidential proposals of people that are running who say, let's break up the tech companies. But as to what that will actually look like, I'm not. Sure yet. Well, we are going to keep following this. But one story that I really wanna talk about is one that you reported, and it was published last Friday about Airbnb, which is a company, I don't get. We don't really get to discuss that much because we're always talking about Facebook and YouTube and Google and Twitter an Airbnb, which is planning an IPO. This year is also trying to get rid of white nationalist as well. And so last Friday you posted a story withdrew Moreau TRE on Gizmodo about her Airbnb is struggling to keep white nationalist from using its platform. Specifically this time around the American renaissance conference a gathering that attracts hundreds of white nationalist every year. It was taking place in middle Tennessee this year and y'all look at some leaked communications of the event planning from the independent investigative group. Unicorn riot and found that while some hotels were suggested for lodging many coming were also booking Airbnb. Meaning they were staying in people's homes. Now, I know that if I rented out an Airbnb, I would not feel comfortable having members of, hey. Groups staying in my home. What happened when you told Airbnb about this? Yeah. So Airbnb during Charlottesville and unite right? You know, did say that they had a ban white nationalist. And that they didn't want them using the platform. You know, they Airbnb has this whole nondiscrimination policy that was developed in part because there was racism that was happening on the platform where certain guests in certain host were being judged or not allowed in people's homes because of race and so- Airbnb stances that white nationalist violate its on discrimination. Pulsing doesn't want them on the platform. So we went and told them about American renaissance, and they said, oh, you know, they were really alarmed, and they basically start whole investigation to see, you know, whether people had booked Airbnb is and also, you know, looking for people that were connected to the conference. And so they wound up canceling some reservations and kicking some people off of Airbnb, including faith Goldie who said Canadian. Ian woman who's been called the white nationalist poster girl who then complained that she had been kicked off because she said, she had a really great record on Airbnb of being a great guest and very clean and very respectful, but it was interesting because Airbnb has said, you know, much like Facebook and Instagram that it has a ban now on white nationalist using the platform, but it didn't seem like Airbnb with actually doing anything to look for these people until we came and told them about a conference, but this conference isn't an underground conferences conference has been happening for years. It's it's controversial in Tennessee. Because the state park in Tennessee is hosting a group of noon, white nationalist every year and protesters come so it's not unknown faith Goldie has had big stories written about her. She's in the news ally. She's in the news a lot. So it just it seemed that Airbnb wasn't proactive. Wli looking for these people, but it will act if it's brought to their attention. And so I think it just raises this question of once these companies do create a man, how far do we expect them to go and enforcing it? Yeah. And I mean does that mean that they have to kind of keep a calendar of when there are going to be big hate gatherings around the country. You know, it's it's it's very hard to know, the political leanings of everyone that uses your platform, especially if it's not a place where people are actively talking about their politics. But it seems that it is possible to kind of know one these convergences at least the more public ones are happening. And and then kind of see if all of a sudden, there's a bunch of rooms being rented in places where people aren't typically vacationing like where I'm from where this conference is happening in middle Tennessee outside of Nashville where where I don't think most people go for fun. Yeah. And it's you can ask the same question of hotels, but hotels, don't have the same amount of information about their Airbnb has and their baby is something different. You are bringing host together with guests. And so I do think it puts a special requirement on the company to make sure that's a safe interaction bringing people into your home. I mean, it's not just renting out your whole house when you're not there. But like a running out a room while you're there, you know, do you want to be harboring someone that is actively facilitating or being a member of a hate group? Many of these groups are are known to to be violent or at least, you know, pro actively practicing racism, antisemitism. So yeah, Airbnb does have responsibility when we're talking about letting people into the home, but this is kind of something that they have to do on their own. There's no law that says they have to do this. It's just that if they have. These rules. What is monitoring look like it doesn't seem like they're doing that much monitoring great now. I mean, do they have a team dedicated to this? Did they tell you anything about their kind of methodology for sussing this out? They didn't wanna tell us too much about their methodology because they say, oh, well, then that tells the bad guys what we do with Lao, you know, people in the future to circumvents, whatever we're doing to keep people off the platform that we don't want. But it did seem like it was basically falling with the trust and safety team. Yeah. They wouldn't go into exactly how they do. What they do. They have vague posts about, you know, they do background checks. They look at all these signals machine learning yada, yada, yada. Right. But it was funny. I mean, we also called because there were two there were four hotels that were recommended is accommodations, if the, you know, the end at the state park filled up, and so I called them and asked, you know, how do you feel about white nationalist, Dana hotel, and they are dislike. Well, we don't ask people while why they're here. And all we ask for I d and as long as they don't, you know, 'cause a raw ruckus in the lobby. We, you know, we don't discriminate against anyone so Airbnb is certainly has a a higher standard than other hotels that are in the area. But I think that they should again because they have a special, you know, model their moderating letting people into your home. They're kind of like or mediating that you know. And it was I think it was in two thousand sixteen one the hashtag you mentioned this earlier Airbnb while black really kind of went viral on Twitter, and it was a place where black users using hashtag were recounting their experiences being denied places to stay even when the listings were marked is open in so Airbnb has definitely felt. With people using their platform to to to act racist. Okay. Well, I really recommend the story in Gizmodo that we're talking about it's entitled Airbnb doesn't want white nationalist on its platform. But how hard is it looking for them? Really well written and reported and next we're going to talk to Pat Brown CEO and founder of impossible foods, which makes the impossible burger, which we tried right before recording this podcast. I'm David plots one of the hosts of the political vest and your ears right now to encourage you to sign up for sleep. Plus, I know I know you've got this message before but hear me out for second. You see slate? Plus is probably the best thirty five dollars. You'll spend this year. Not only we get more than thirty. That's thirty podcasts at free for just thirty five dollars. But as a slate plus member, you'll also get exclusive access to private cocktail hours favorite podcast hosts discounts on tickets to live events around the country, less advertising dot com. Direct access to slate writers editors podcasters to private Facebook group. Plus, tons of extra podcast episodes and segments supports journalism and give yourself a service you'll actually use signing up for sleep. Plus today. Just visit slate dot com slash podcasts. Plus to sign up today. Again, that's slate dot com slash podcast. Plus, thanks. Our guest today is Pat Brown CEO and founder of impossible foods, Pat Brown. Thanks so much for joining us. Sure writing. Yes. So we wanted to talk a bit with you about your company impossible foods in the impossible burger that you'll make and this is a special in light of the fact that animal industries are leading cause of climate change. This is near universally accepted premise, and was outlined clearly in the UN's more recent report on the environmental crisis grazing takes up about two-thirds of the world's agricultural land. A third of that comes from deforestation then the cattle that graze release gases as well. So it's really not good for the environment all around that is eating meat and producing meat particularly beef, and it's not sustainable either. There have been meat alternatives for many years but impossible burger and other more recent lab made protein products aimed at truly mimic meet. And of course, your company is bolstered by nearly four hundred million in venture capital. Kashmir. And I'd just tasted an impossible burger was-. My first time. It was my second or third, but it was Kashmir's first time, and you liked it. Right. Yeah. I mean, April had to buy it last night. We warmed it up in the microwave, but we had to for sale this morning, but I have to say it was delicious and so much better. I think than a regular burger that had sat in for her refrigerator overnight. It is incredibly meet like and the flavor was really good. I I'm not currently of -tarian, but I was vegetarian for seven years. And I do not remember budgetary in burgers tasting that good. I also like them. I am a vegetarian maybe more flexible, but tend to eat very vegetarian, and I I like them. I think that they taste pretty much like real burger than I'm not even looking for something that tastes like a real burger because it's not something. I miss, but it is something that's delicious. And and it is kind of nice to to get that back a bit. And so, you know, what is how are you able to get them to taste so meet like? First thing to understand is that the company was not founded to create a better veggie burger the goal. The company mission of the company was founded is to completely replace animals food system by twenty thirty five sooner of possible, and to do so by creating meat, fish and dairy foods without using animals that are better in every way that matters to the consumers of those products. That was something that's never been the premise of any company that made meat alternatives before they have always sort of you their target market as people who are looking for an alternative. We're not interested in people who are looking for an alternative where we're interested in making products that outperform in deliciousness in nutritional value. You have to get the flavors and the Roma's right to have to the texture of the juicy nuts the way performs kitchen and so forth, but pretty much the reason that meat tastes. Unlike anything from the plant world is that meat contains very high levels of molecule called him. So you can take a bunch of a simple nutrients that can come from appliance or an animal or pretty much any cell that are me know acid sugars fats, so they're not animals Pacific. And if you were to cook them together, you'd get some very mild savory sort of like vegetable broth type of tastes. If you throw in him bang. It turns into meet him as the catalyst that catalyze the chemical reactions that take these simple common nutrients. And produce hundreds of Allah tala Roma in flavor compounds that add up to the, you know, unique characteristic, aroma five or profile of meat. So what is hayme though? I that's what I'm confused about is getting it from soy while he is found in every living cell on earth pretty much. It's essential for every cell in every plant. It's essential for every so on every animal it's part of the core mechanism by which cells generate burn calories to generate energy. So that's something that we didn't. Discover that's known for for many years. And he was also familiar probably a lot of people as the molecule that carries oxygen in your blood delivers oxen from your lungs to tissues points. And and also gives your blood its red color and animal tissues of it's sort of obvious. They contain a lot were hime like orders of magnitude more him than typical plant even though plants need him. And this explosion of flavor in Roma. That's unlike anything you'll ever see when you're cooking. Something plant base. That's all due to the Catholic activity of. And it really is true. When you eat the burger it tastes like meat ours. Didn't bleed. But if I didn't know that I would have thought I was eating meat burger. But how do you guys actually develop the hime that you're putting in your burgers? Yeah. So the heat containing protein in our burgers is naturally found in the root nodules of Sony beans. It's virtually identical between contain molecule in animal muscle tissue. Which is part of the reason we chose this one. Fall sorts of reasons, it's actually just incredibly difficult to isolate in cleaned form. These these tiny little parts of soybean roots from tons and tons of dirt and was completely unscaled. So then what we did was we took the gene from the implant that encodes team protein and transferred it into into yeast cells. And basically optimize the you cells. So these cells are naturally able to produce him. But what we did was we. Amplify their ability to produce tons of hime, and we introduced this plant protein that binds the hime and sort of releases that upon cooking. You might say that seems like a really expensive process. So, you know, the burgers that I the impossible burgers that I bought yesterday where fifteen dollars each I know that the Walker that's for sale now in Missouri is just a dollar more than a meat Walker. It's just a really high pride price point though. I I mean, I don't know why the whoppers were so much cheaper than the impossible burger that I'm buying restaurants in Oakland. But but talk about how much it cost because I just can't imagine that the process that you just described as very cost efficient, actually it is. And it's not only cost efficient it's vastly more resource efficient in terms of its environmental impact than producing him by covering the planet with cows. But it from a cost. It's actually interesting that as a general principle, if you can produce something using a lot less resources, and with a smaller environmental footprint, it's highly likely to be cheaper when it's at scale. So at scale, our production process should be considerably less expensive than the producing the same things using an animal, and I would be reasonably confident that within two or three years are caused the production will have fallen below the cost of action of the animal equivalents, fundamentally our economic are better. We because we use less land use four percents on hand we use about that attend the water we use a less than a tenth the fertilizer inputs and fraction of all the other inputs that go. Into producing meat from a cow. It's just a matter of getting to scale before your your product is cheaper. And that's what we're focusing on right now is scaling up as fast as possible. So unlike other vegetarian burger companies your target audience, isn't that -tarian you're trying to target meters? So what is your strategy Ben to try to convince people that they should be eating impossible burgers instead of the regular kind own. We know based on tons of data that meat lovers love meat because of its new delicious flavor, it's nutritional value protein content in iron and stuff like that. It's familiarity, convenience and affordability not. Because of the fact that it's made from the cadaver wgn animal, but in spite of the fact that's made from the Jabber an animal, and we have very good data that hardcore meat lovers. This is. True crime every corner of the US in the world. If you can deliver the deliciousness, and the affordability and those things that consumers nutritional value things that consumers value in meat and make it from plants. They would actually value would more because meat lovers love their meat. But they don't love how it's made they live with how it's made. And most of the time they try to ignore. How it's may. I think they just don't think about it. Don't wanna think about it. But the point is it's clearly not something that is part of what they value meat. So what that means for us is that that the critical thing is to make a product that outperforms in the way that lead lowers care about mostly flavor protein, Aren an affordability where in the world can you get an impossible burger right now Burger King's, Missouri. I definitely see them around the San Francisco Bay area. You guys started at MoMA Fukui in New York, right? Where else start one we started at a sort of very high in restaurants that are run by chefs who are particularly noted for their meat. They're known as, you know, meet chefs, and that would be, you know, in New York City Dave Chang, who's like one of artist or meet good is around. There's west we had Michael Simon who had recently published a book called carnivore. And we did that basically because the most important thing we needed to communicate to consumers right out of the box. Is that? This isn't uncompromisingly delicious meat not avenge burger, but we wanted to get mainstream as fast as possible. And you know, we're going into retail later this year. So consumers will be able to have this experience. Literally mind-blowing that's kind of what makes chefs volume of our product when they try it is that it does something that no one has ever seen a plan product do before. Which is it does the same sort of magical transformation? Isn't it does when you cook it, but in terms of where you can find it right now right now is in Burger King and Saint Louis our hope is and and were reasonably confident that this will happen that it will go nationwide sometime in the middle of the year, and it's in white castle. It's in which is mostly in the east coast. But there you can buy an impossible slider for a buck ninety nine. Then were also red, Robin. Which is our right now, actually our biggest customer with five hundred plus stores and Amami burger the counter. The individual restaurants around large cities. Most of our current customers are just relatively small operators that have a single unit or a small number of of units. Are you getting any pushback from big beef industry yet or you guys too small still? Yeah. I mean, are they are they not happy with the word burger, I I guess that's already kind of a lost cause. But what is what is the pushback from the beef industry? It's interesting because they have very limited tools. They have a lot of political cloud. But basically since we're not going out there, and and picketing ranchers and in slaughterhouses, we're approaching this by creating a new product and then line consumers choose, and it's basically not this is not an attack on the meat industry. It's creating an alternative and consumers will pick the winners, basically. And that's a very hard thing to fight against politically the one thing that they're trying to do is to. Restrictions on what we can call our products. Is there a specific word? They don't want you to use. I don't want to speak for them. They're the Michigan's thing that I did read that they don't like the use of that word in particular. Yeah. Yeah. And our feeling is look, you know, the laws can restrict what we call it. But they can't restrict what consumers colic, and whatever we call. It consumers are going to call beat and calls burgers. And that's what matters reminds me of conflict. Diamonds versus lab grown diamonds. Right. Everyone wants to claim claim the claim the turf. That's interesting. So impossible burgers still do rely on totalitarian agriculture practices. You know, and growing relies on soy at which is a mono-crop that isn't good for the environment. When it's grown at massive quantities. Either. What are your thoughts on on that on just the fact that you can't really escape harmful ecological practices or agriculture practices? When you're when you're trying to produce that scale. Well, that's not really true. I mean, I would say that at the moment. We are too small company to be able to dictate what umbrella materials are grown. We have to use the materials that are grown at scale to make our product. And we don't, you know, most of the crops grown it at scale are actually grown agriculture mostly corn and soybeans in the world are grown to feed animals at tiny faction listings ever, get consumed by by humans. But we're not what we're doing is not endorsing. You've you called a took Taliban. Agriculture. I love that phrase. I'm not sure what it means. But it's pretty it's pretty catchy. But you know, when you talk about monocropping, I mean is lettuce on a crop is to tomatoes amount crop. I mean, the thing about monocropping is there are these these huge crops that are grown in vast bulk to feed animals, that's that's the problem. We're doing work right now looking at some entirely new sources of plant protein that are better environmentally and have a lot of advantages ingredients. But nobody's growing them right now because you know, the agricultural system doesn't take orders from us. And but when we're at scale, it's we're very actively thinking about building more robust agricultural system precisely not depending on any single or small number of crops because it makes it a risky. It is a food security problem if a significant fraction of the world's food and protein supply until fourth is coming from a small number of crops. If there's a outbreak of pass that attacks crops in cellphone, it's food security catastrophe. Right. Okay. Is this our last question for you? I know you're still small, but. Do you have an estimate of how many cows you've saved so far. Over ten thousand. Yeah. It's it's I would say it's probably approaching twenty thousand by the end of the year. It will be highly likely more than hundred thousand cows at have been saved and we have saved CO two emissions. You know, every time someone picks out impossible burger over the cow drivers, they saved equivalent of about eight miles of driving in a typical American car. So that adds up very quickly when we're selling, you know, millions of burgers as we are. So we're saving vast amounts of land water CO two emissions fertilizer use end associated runoff pollution pesticide use. And cows are. Hi, pat. Thank you so much for joining us. Yeah. Thanks for talking to me one final quick break. And then don't close my tabs some of the best things we've seen on the web this week. This episode is brought to you by plug into the present a campaign raising awareness about electric vehicles. More and more people are discovering how electric cars can fit into their lifestyle with today's electric vehicles. You aren't limited to your work commute. More and more models have a range of over two hundred miles per charge. So you can drive just about anywhere weekend road trips out of town, errands, you name it driving electric is just like driving a conventional car, and there are a lot of fun to drive to have you ever experienced instant twerk. Learn more about electric vehicles at plug into the present dot com. That's plug into the present dot com. It's time again for don't close my tabs. Kashmir. What did you leave open this week? Or what would you recommend rather that that people check out? Well, there was a piece in the Atlantic. It was actually last month called Airbnb has a hidden camera problem by Sydney food L and then just a couple of days ago. I have opened in tab, a CNN story about a family in Ireland who checked into their Airbnb, and then the father, I guess is technologist because he scan the WI fi network just to make sure there's nothing, you know. Unexpected connected to doing this. Yeah. Basically everyone uses Airbnb should start doing this. He discovers a internet connected camera. That is indeed connected to the network and live streaming them. And so the family immediately. You know reported this Airbnb, you know, complained about it went checked in somewhere else, and you know, Airbnb, I don't think stupor acted on it. Until it became a media story. But yeah, I'm just clearly anytime Airbnb a lot I really like it with the child it's nice to have like multiple rooms instead of just a hotel room. But I am freaked out every single time that there's a camera hidden somewhere watching me is this legal or is this part of their policy. I don't know legals the right word. But as this is kosher Airbnb is world. I mean, Airbnb says that if it's disclosed in the listing that there is a camera in the house, then it's okay. But they shouldn't have, you know, hidden cameras or cameras that are going to catch you in a state of undress or an intimate space like in a bedroom. And it definitely is a legal to, you know, secretly film people even if they're in your house. I think though, I haven't I haven't really seen this litigated yet. Right. Right. And this wasn't was this like streaming online somewhere. I don't I don't think it was streaming online. Crazily? I did see an article about how in south. Korea did see that this is like a huge country-wide problem of people just having finding hidden cameras. And livestream numb there a bunch of people who got together and had this like thousand persons strong March with with the message my life is not your porn because apparently just happens all the time. Yeah. Which is my my nightmare. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I just I mean, so cameras are already everywhere outside mostly private security cameras. Not state owned although police often have agreements with companies that have private that own a security cameras. So they they can get that feed. But this is different. This seems to be people who are kind of running cameras for entertainment not for security, and I think sometimes it somebody who's just like, oh, I'm going to have a bunch of strangers in my home. I want to know what they're up to. I wanna know if they, you know, throw a party or have more guests, and they're supposed to have those people sometimes might have a camera. That's hopefully, just outside or they might have one in there. Living room, which is certainly happened. But there's definitely some creepy cameras. That are hidden, you know, in like smoke detectors above the bed. So I also have an on nerve ING tab this week, less creepy and more. Like, why would you do this? And it is from CNBC it's entitled billionaire Jack Dorsey is eleven wellness habits from no food all weakened to a spat s-. And he's definitely he's both on a podcast recently kind of going through his life hacks wellness routine, and it's just like I barely have the time to make it to the gym. I try, but it just happened as much as I would ever like I couldn't imagine what it's like to have a kid. Try to do that some of my friends do try and are as successful him without a kid. But but Jack Dorsey meditates every day. Okay. Got it. But he only eats one meal a day of parent takes an ice bath every night. He walks to work everyday when he goes to work and back. So we're talking like hours and hours of wellness. You're right. I think he's just trying to punish himself or creating Twitter. Maybe and you know, and I'm curious hearing that, you know, one meal a day like, I don't eat a meal, and I'm just kind of get a little testy, and you know, and I couldn't imagine what it would be like if you try to eating a sandwich if that would maybe help. Make Twitter better. Right. If he would maybe have a little more focused to to make it less awful. No it could help. If you're running a. Crazy. Warren of uncontrollable activity like Twitter may be it's a very satisfying to be able to rigidly control things in your own life. I don't know. Sure, you're a billionaire you can afford to have people helping you in such a way that you can kind of take this time off to like, I don't know go grocery shopping, do all the things I rushed to do between, you know, work and needing to actually sleep eat and stuff like that. Right. But I recommend reading just because it's kind of or just like checking it out not only because it's funny and impressive. But also this is like, oh, wow. This is how billionaires who run our communications platforms early says one billionaire that's running this one communication platform that at least gives me a headache. This is how he finds peace in his life. Even if he's running a product that doesn't necessarily create a lot of peace and other people's lives. That's thought it was like, okay. This is this is what he does. Oh, he fasts all weekend. Tracks his sleep. It doesn't sound that chill. Honestly, I do think there's such a thing as the over quantify. Guide self right. Get a little too obsessed with the metrics, and I don't think that that is healthy either. Well, well that does it for our show this week. Kashmir. Thank you so much for joining us. You guys life. Dr interview with impossible CEO that is not something that's on either. But we thought it would be fun to go off track. And think about this incredibly big problem of what are we going to do about the environment? And one of the big environment is, of course consumption, please send us your questions show and guest suggestions or just say, hi, you can Email us at if then at sleep dot com. You can follow myself on Twitter. I'm Eddie for laser and you can follow. Kashmir. She's cash hill. Thanks to our guest. Pat, Brown CEO and founder of impossible foods, and thanks to everyone who has left a comment or review on apple podcasts or whatever platform used to. Listen, you really appreciate it. If then as a production of sleet and future Ted's partnership between fleet Arizona State University and new America. If you want more slates coverage sign up for the future tense newsletter every week, you'll get news and commentary on how tech advances are trained in the world in ways. Small and large saying, it's leap dot com slash future. News producer is Cameron Druze. You can find Kashmir hills work at Gizmodo. Thanks also to Jonas Strauss at survivor sound here in Oakland, California. And we will see all.

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Can A Burger Help Save The Planet? Impossible Foods CEO Pat Brown Says Yes

The Rich Roll Podcast

2:22:52 hr | 1 year ago

Can A Burger Help Save The Planet? Impossible Foods CEO Pat Brown Says Yes

"The mission is very simple it's to completely replace animals in the food system by twenty thirty five the use of animals as food technology eighty is by a huge margin the most destructive technology on earth and really poses a catastrophic threat. It's and what else I'm about to head up to Stanford for my thirtieth college reunion next week which is just insane all of this and this is the retrial podcast super enthusiastic about my life and about today's episode so thank you guys for showing up I feel very blessed to do this thing I think the word is reptiles Amphibians fish even insects and that has happened so fast and it's continuing accelerate because the driver is is grateful and I do not take your attention for granted so most of you have heard about this thing called the impossible burger a it's been a crazy month to say the least I spoke at the nantucket project a couple of weeks ago hosted conversations there with Russell brand either growing feed crops or grazing livestock and that land footprint comes at the expense of all the bio-diversity that previously occupied that land fresh water in the world and the biggest issue is that about fifty percent of the entire land surface verve is actively in use right now in the past forty years we've basically wiped out half the wild animals that were living on earth back then and it's just across the board mammals birds if so did you catch the video version I hope you did if you missed it please check that out not only am I super proud of that entire event I'm extra the land footprint of animal agriculture and overfishing and the demand for meat and fish is growing faster than population that's Pat Brown a big brushfire to get here to the studio today the Santa Ana winds are kicking up again which is a little anxiety provoking after last year's experience I'm your host this is my pod cast welcome did you enjoy the live event podcast within Q.. And Paul Hawkin definitely check out of an out spoke there hosted another conversation with Zach Bush came home got another couple of shows up then I just drove through Dr Zack Bush podcast favorites in fact Russell shared short clip of that exchange that you can find on his youtube channel check that out then and I imagine many of you out there have already tried it arguably it's the plant based Patty that comes closest to fooling people that it isn't in fact is surreal. I guess I'm officially old at this point but I gotTa tell you I don't feel old I feel grateful I feel energetic and home to perform at the live event and I jotted to tell you ride for another event called original thinkers which was super cool everybody should real beef and I think it's fair to say that the impossible Burger has become a bit of a phenomenon it's widely available at all manner of restaurants all across pretty hard at work at planning more live events just like this for two thousand twenty so stay tuned and we'll keep you posted on that I gotTa Tell You I'm a little bit wiped it out crowd of my team for the incredible production value that they brought to that still basking in the glow of that experience and we're already glow lots of fast food chains etc so what's the story behind all this how did it come to be and what is the intention the mission behind it all all today I'm very excited to host the man responsible for upending everything that you thought you knew about plant based meet impossible foods founder Pat Brown in addition to being a world renowned geneticist pat is a former Howard Hughes Medical Institute investigator uh rich role podcast hey everybody how you guys doing what's the latest how are you my name is rich role as well as a professor of biochemistry at Stanford University he's also the founder of lyrical foods which makes kite hill artisanal nut milk based she national Academy of Sciences in two thousand two he's a member of the Institute of Medicine and his numerous accolades include the American Cancer Society Medal of honor and the eases and he's the founder of the Public Library of Science a nonprofit publisher pioneer the open access business model pat was elected to the NAS award in molecular biology. Basically this is a guy who was moved action spurned into action by the urgent need which is as we all know one of the biggest contributors to planetary warming and he's doing this by providing delicious nutritious you to redress global climate change any founded this company impossible foods with one clear goal to eliminate a radical animal agriculture and much more environmentally friendly alternatives to meat and dairy directly made from plants so this mission statement is ambitious some would say and today he shares his story but first let's support the sponsors that make today's drop possible starting with my good friends at Roka Roka in order to solve the most important design challenges Roca athletes include podcast guests Jesse Thomas Anna Vendor Bragan who is a UCI women's Roca founded by two former Stanford swimming teammates of mine has solved this decade-long dilemma for me and so many others seriously after six years and thirty patterns coaches need corrective eyewear you need prescription glasses and shades that work under pressure that are durable that are lightweight and don't slip down your Dang knows when you're just it's no wonder it's sleek it's surprisingly affordable and it will totally change your relationship to work it's one hundred percent adjustable which allows you to switch positions is a performance driven eyewear company creating some of the best sunglasses and eyeglasses on the market they test all their shades with elite athletes and incredibly harsh conditions champion cyclist sage candidy elite Ultra marathoner and Javier Gomez who is a world champion triathlete. If you're like me if you slash rich role were also brought to you today by fully I think it's fair to say that it wasn't until we partnered up with fully that myself of active sitting chairs that you can choose from depending upon your style whether you're a visitor or a traditionalist or somebody who's just looking for simple supported standing position you can find it Asian meditation isn't just for the spiritually inclined it is a highly studied practice that actually changes your brain chemistry Sir it's audacious but you simply can't deny the impact that he and his team at impossible has already made and pat is a guy who's just getting started and whenever your body tells you to also has these awesome adjustable arms for your computer monitors and all kinds of other cool bells and whistles fully also has a wide variety all that's our okay A. dot com slash ritual to save twenty percent on a new pair of killer sunglasses or prescription eyewear that's Roca Dot Com Ford do all of us spent too many hours locked in an uncomfortable slouch so if you'd like to feel better at work let me introduce you to fully fully transforms the sending that trail or navigating traffic on a bike and you're in for a treat because historically this has been a huge challenge for me which is why I'm so delighted to share her those guys have it down you can literally do anything in Rocca glasses from biking to endurance runs to simply bending over to pick up your kid these all at fully fully everything you need to create an active office from Standing Matt's to conference tables Sofas and all kinds of other workplace accessories to keep you feeling achievable we talked about the difficulties in meeting demand at scale the important need for replacing food from livestock and we talked about land and our team actually realized how much time we spend hunched over desks all day long whether it's doing research or recording an interview up ground you down like sleep stories my personal favorite music and much more calm is meditation molded for the Modern World whether you're stressed off we covered pats background story the mission behind a possible foods we talked about impossible's recent successes water in Sun why you don't need to complicate technology to solve climate change I think this is a great companion conversation you my previous episode with environmentalist Paul Hawkins and also a bit of a companion piece to my conversation with beyond meat founder and CEO Ethan Brown with desks chairs and other tools to get us moving fully helps you bring your full active self to work and finally were brought to you today buy com while we're talking as a collective we're feeling more uncertainty and anxiety than ever before which is why I am stoked to have partnered with com- the number one rated APP for meditate these bad boys will not slide off for anyone who wears prescription glasses all day like myself this is like a total miracle another perk of Rocca eyewear is their home about the office have you been feeling stress lately if so you are not alone the World Health Organization in fact has named stress the health epidemic of the twenty first century way we feel at work and home with desks chairs and other tools to keep our bodies moving and our minds engaged there. Jarvis desk is the best reviewed standing desk online on program simply choose four styles and they'll send them right to your door in a home try on kit pick your favorite pair at your prescription syndicate back with their prepaid shipping label and reaching fast food chains like Red Robin Little caesars White Castle and most recently Burger King which offers the impossible walker nationwide which is good throughout the day so re imagine what were can feel like go to fully dot com slash rich role that's Fu l. y. dot com slash ritual and that one's from way back in the day episode one thirty six march of two thousand fifteen Check that out if you missed it the first time around irrespective of your thoughts on plant based meat analogues the impact of Animal Agriculture on our planet is undeniable and tremendous big changes are bowl to everyone on their easy to use APP you'll discover a whole library of guided meditations on themes like anxiety creativity and focus even have other resources have the power to make the necessary changes and it begins with our personal choices so with that I give you Pat Brown Oh and you my friends are done and right now you can even get twenty percents off your order if you go to Roka are okay A. dot com forward slash rituals description adt com dot com forward slash ritual at C. A. L. Dot com for slash ritual forty million people have downloaded com. Are we even get into it though I have to have to say that I didn't realize until I started digging in doing some research for this today gene friends over the years and I remember working with him very vividly and I was just struck with how small seeking to strengthen your focus or fall asleep more smoothly com has a meditation for you and right now my listeners can get twenty five percent off Akam premiums are mandatory if we want to solve this dilemma so please I encourage you to listen and listen with an open mind because I believe we really do tation has been shown to slow down the release of stress chemicals in your bloodstream giving you some much needed relief and com makes meditation simple and accessible here we are tap around welcome to the podcast thank you appreciate appreciate you making a trip out here I've been looking forward we're so so happy to have him I mean he's he's already made a huge impact he's a terrific leader Complete straight shooter you know find out why ADT COM DOT com forward slash rich role okay Pat Brown so we talked about a lot of stuff art and capable this guy was a very young age and somebody who demonstrated incredible leadership skills even in this junior position we that a few months ago you hired Dennis Woodside as your president arrival yeah yeah so Dennis paired together to work on a few matters and he just took total control of the situation in a way that I've never seen anybody else so I knew way back then that this guy was get athlete let's talk about the mission statement the why behind impossible food is for a long time you've got a big vision and huge mission that I applaud and I'm looking forward to hearing all about it sure well the mission is very simple it's to completely replace animals in the food system by twenty thirty five a huge margin the most destructive technology on earth and really poses a catastrophic threat I've known Dennis since Nineteen ninety-three Oh man we we were summer associates at a law firm in San Francisco way back in the day and have I know I haven't I I I haven't followed his career but I've heard that yeah yeah cool so I think the best way across the board mammals birds reptiles amphibians fish even insects and that has happened so fast and and it's happening it is growing faster than population and you know when you take Arjun the biggest cause of the catastrophic meltdown bio-diversity we're experiencing for all practical purposes nothing else really matters fifty percent of the entire land surface of earth is actively in use right now either going feed crops or grazing livestock and that land in the past forty years we've basically wiped out half the wild animals that were living back then and it's just sprint comes at the expense of all the biodiversity that previously occupied the land and as a result it is by an overwhelming it is the biggest user of freshwater in the world the biggest polluted by far freshwater in the world and uh what what's the biggest problem that I can contribute to solving what a humongous disastrous impact that tax it's land based animal agriculture and overfishing that that are causing this thing and that is even more of a I think risk to destined for big things and you know he's been at Google running the Motorola Division and then he was a dropbox a CEO and now he's with you which is pretty exciting he analogy has its I think most people know it's a major source of greenhouse gases more than all forms of transportation combined in that in that business but it really came as a surprise to me when I started looking for a problem to work on just trying to figure out what's the and the why I try to keep it as short as possible but basically you know hit the biggest issue is that it is occupies a huge land area for land based agriculture about the future of our planet than the Climate Change Issue I think people are increasingly starting to become aware of it but you know I got the path to founding it when I realized what I should have known earlier I wish I did that the use of animals as a food technology is yeah yeah and just a great guy he is super smart and also an incredible iron man you know that right it's don't like fourteen iron man's it's you know it's continuing to accelerate because the driver is the land footprint of Emirati culture overfishing which are the demand for meat and fishes funds to reduce their meat and dairy consumption by half this was two or three years ago and what happened was absolutely nothing the demand didn't go down using a incredibly inefficient and obviously quite destructive technology that underperformed in every way that matters including economics so it's because it's so inefficient the on a nutritional basis you know they about the issue is still not enough to get people to change what they love in their diet and so what that meant for me is that the pursing them anything like that it's never worked it's been tried every which way yeah I'm still trying now I know I pieces of an ecosystem the ecosystem it's like pulling bricks out of a wall it's it's extremely destabilizing and basic problem but anyway Blah Blah Blah Blah the When I realized this I felt that okay this is what I've got to work on I'm and I thought I was pretty savvy about environmental issues and you know I had been on a place died from a long time so I had no particular investment the won't immediately 'cause by setting up for a crash and so I don't think we've even begun to feel the full impact of of this and I also realized that very quickly that you're not going to solve the problem by asking people to change their diets telling them change their diets educating them as we get from animals are more than an order of magnitude more expensive than any plant based equivalent that's a huge opportunity to come up with a new technology eh that outperforms in every way that matters to consumers most importantly deliciousness but also nutritional value afford ability and so forth and I was sure that it's completely doable back then and I'm even more sure now right so that's how we're going to solve the album right so here we are I mean the the disconnect and the dissonance is huge when you look at the statistics as you said something like fifty percents listen and I think it's very important for people to you know understand what's going on in the world but the people who understand this problem the most I was at the and and literally almost to a person they went out and had steak for dinner. Okay so I think that pretty much tells you that knowing about the issue mm cop twenty one climate conference like three years ago and You know you have hundreds of the most dedicated environmentalists in the world at this event anyway to solve it is to is to basically frame it as a technology problem the world is going to continue demand these foods but we're making them the wrong way attention it's the total number of individual wild animals pretty much across the okay now most birds reptiles amphibians into out training yesterday's was he watch your back it trust me I think he's he's he went like nine twenty two in an iron man I think he's super fast he's a very as they become more and more unstable and once you get to a certain size basically there you know and that's all going towards cattle grazing and clearing land to raise crops for these cows pretty much right I heard and and you know I mean China which is used to getting what it wants when it when acid says for something asked it says not exceeding transportation which is what everyone wants to talk about but the the the mass species extinction is something that you don't hear that much about uh-huh is down by more than fifty percent buddy it's a precursor to species extinction basically you know you reduce the population the Amazon rainforest right where we're decimating these beautiful ecosystems at the rate of like one football field of minute or something like that continent absolutely and it's Asia and Africa where most of the growth is happening Asia in particular because of the population and symbol you could almost say of how out of control this system is that the dominant species by biomass overwhelmingly on on her so that's a big target for us but I think the real take on message though is that yes I I was in education for most of my life I'm all for education you talk about The biomass of cows alone exceeding every other animal on the planet by some ridiculous heavily grazed right fourteen point five percents of all greenhouse gas emissions are attributable to animal agriculture which is basically on parody old old right yeah and the so and that's I think just a striking Unlikely entrepreneur you come from this academic background you had a very nice situation all set up for you at Stanford where you were you too impossible like this evolution in your thinking to how you arrived at this point so walk me through that a little bit sure Moma's last time I I drove any distance doesn't matter where you are in the world what animals did you see cows cows cow's the occasional sheep of all arable land on the planet is devoted to animal agriculture in some respect man and and very large fraction of the non arable land is in and truly like fifty percent of our species have gone extinct in like the last fifty years or something it's not just to correct that it's not species going going up while the rise of the middle class there is contributing to that and I think Asia counts for something like forty six percents of meat consumption yeah Asia as a key quarrel maybe you know a crow more cows you'd probably see pigs and chickens but they're all inside you know these Campos where you can just on the slippery slope has a threshold and you can't come back from that and when you look it becomes evident when you kind of look at what's going on actually yes that's actually a very good point so the pigs on earth today outweigh every remaining wild animal on land by more than a factor of two it's land surfaces cows and it's completely consistent I think if if you you know a lot of people say how could that possibly be and all you have to do is think okay is a conference where I wanted to bring together economist and environmentalists and food security there's no reason not to try but I hear you but I think you're absolutely right you have to solve this problem as the you know have to meet people where they are exactly where they are and and win win on every access and that that would Persuade policymakers that this is something to try to achieve climate catastrophe and I think even you know at this point most people in the world including most politicians in the world acknowledged that experts and so forth so just look at the hypothetical scenario in which the entire food system is clan-based and in a rarely makes it happen and we don't have tyler disappointing. Yeah Yeah I mean just look at all the all the things we need to do to avoid it complete waste of time and and and the only way to change it basically is to accept that for these foods with a much lower environmental footprint and compete in the marketplace and basically make the this is a very real serious threat and yet you can't Marshall the political will to even make tiny steps towards the solution yeah so so so then I came to my senses and I realized that you know abundant evidence that a policy change would be good for the world tenure professor in Bio- Biochemistry Genomics Right and you are somebody who had been vegetarian at least or plant well I I was looking for something new to work on I'm just want I just I just wanted to start with a blank slate and that's one of the as for some number of years you've got interested in the environment and you decided to take this sabbatical so I'm interested in is a very interesting journey to get you important problem I could work on as I said very quickly became clear that this is not just the most important problem I could work on its overwhelmingly the most important urgent problem in the and the question is what are the economic impacts you know locally and globally what are the environmental impacts food security impacts what are the public health impacts and I organize it kind of you know bringing people with no preconceived notions but with pretty high confidence that the answer was gonna come out it's a win win anyway the point being that I did this kind of academic thing of you know bring you a bunch of people together to kind of look at the issues and then I realized that that was world and once I realized that I spent some time thinking about how to do it I made one false start which is that the first thing I did was I or all CS aren't GonNa Change Fast Enough People's food preferences aren't GonNa Change Fast enough if at all we need to find a way to meet the huge demand critics outweigh them all yeah and you're right we don't see a lot of them wandering around because you're in Keiko's and chickens away every remaining wild source of greenhouse gases more than all forms of transportation combined it is the biggest user of freshwater in the world the biggest polluter by far great things about the job I had Stanford is pretty much do anything constructive that I wanted and and I wanted to pick the most bird by morton a factor of two so you know it's it's a whack yeah all right well you're you're a very way what's interesting about the journey that you then embarked on is rather than just trying to come up with a plant based alternative that tastes good these industries go away not by attacking them but by beating them in the marketplace the good old fashioned American capitalist Medians we can save the world from you know environmental catastrophe that we're headed toward right now so and actually scientists get that and so when it came to recruiting scientists we've been incredibly successful in recruiting awesome scientists because the the way you recruit incredibly complicated as biological systems but as food you know like it may have started muscle tissue doesn't need to move problems that I was involved in working on and others involved in working on because basically the things that we eat as meat vaguely meet light we need to outperform meat from animals in every way that matters to meat lovers the need to produce energy from simple nutrients doesn't need to keep the cell membrane potentials active and all the kinds of things tissue does aces of the credibility of meat and but it's an answerable question and I felt like it's actually an easier question to answer than a lot of the kind of big medical I still believe the question why does meat taste delicious in micro terms is by far the most important scientific question the world right now because if we can like me like what is it inherent in this food that we as a culture embrace and love that creates that this product to understand it at a cellular level you know well I think that the starting point was realizing that you know there have been food great scientist is give them a really important problem that's really challenging and the best due by and large kind of Nice try but pretty crappy job of it and and it's just not gonNa work you're not going to you if you you're competing for meat lovers who are not looking for an alternative those foods are good enough for someone who's looking for an alternative or someone on Vegetarian Diet that wants something and I knew we just don't know how to do this and we don't really understand what is the kind of molecular biochemical it just needs to do a few simple things that are producing the flavor that consumers love and the textural properties and I felt like that's for for Millennia basically or at least for centuries plant based foods that are intended to approximate meets okay but the that's a hard problem it's hard scientific problem we need the best scientists we can possibly higher but it's the most important scientific question in the world I answer it and use that knowledge to make the most delicious crave meat products in the world using more sustainable and the craving or that desire to continue to eat it like really getting into the minutia and the building blocks of certain people in our rnd team where actually just about to Start hiring a bunch more people to roughly double this is the world just you know gravitate toward that so we get one hundred out of three hundred and thirty employees or something yes we have about different attributes that have different molecular Basi's in meat but focusing on the one that I think is the most uniquely separates meat from -actly yeah you know where to go so the beginnings of trying to answer this question how does that work so any plant based foods is the flavor and aroma profile that based on the flavor and aroma profile irrespective of texture when you cook me something magical happens that never happens with plants or Veggie Burger or anything like that which is that there's this dramatic transformation of the flavor and aroma profile it goes from being something very mild fly flavored with almost no the team and so if you're a scientist and I want to work on the most important scientific problem in the World Aroma to something that is has a potent you know Cook Meat Flavor and all the aromas than come with it and that nature it's it's one of the most important molecules on earth but it hadn't nobody thinks about implants meet and not a plant and so that was a really important question and you know I had a hypothesis system that tells us to burn sugars and simple things for energy to react them without whether it's just ground up into or or you know however you wanted and you respect of of what species it comes from you will recognize as being and flavor and one of the best biological catalysts known is him an animal tissues categorically have so potent catalyst super abundant in the things we call meet was you know a suspect and RND team who minutes is that it binds to him and shuts down those pathways cell depends on for energy So yeah it's ubiquitous in Bufford and I knew that and so I actually in I about we immediately started working on on him on day one basically because it was a suspect but aren't team did some experiments over the first few months ah very clearly established that he missed the magic ingredient that takes simple nutrients that are just like the things that you would find in vegetable broth you know well it's it's it's down part of that but basically it's part of the system that generates energy for the cell and so it's for example the reason that cyanide will kill you and and and I use this as an example people in the company of you know you've you've given our mission two way to figure out how to harvest root nodules and extract the team protein from the root nodules and assists as to what might be important for that could have proven wrong but basically the premise was based on it's based on observation actually that happened that there was a particular part of on legumes partner fixes nitrogen called root nodules that is the one plan hime is is is what binds to oxygen in our red blood cells and carries oxygen to our respective organs etc.. It's what makes red blood cells red oh ask vitamins sugars and fats throwing him and instead of a mild brought the taste you got meat and a lot of things that are risky You know when you do if you know the answer it's not an experiment and and we have to be era of the company's existence I spent a very large fraction the money that we had raised to start the company trying every it's a lot higher concentrations than almost any plant tissue one hundred thousand times higher concentration yeah and I think it would come as a surprise to a lot of people to discover that he actually also exists in the plant kingdom the root nodules inconveniently live underground okay so I thought I'd done a calculation that US soybean crop in the root nodules so I remind people of that because it's really important for people not to be afraid to take on something that could even be expensive we spent you know half the money mclovin that we could do the experiments to prove that it could generate the me flavors and so forth but it was never going to be scaled or economical and the hugeness of it and all the problems we need to solve to achieve it where we don't know the answer we don't know the route we have to do eh quite fearless about it and not talk ourselves out of of what seems like a good experiment or a good project just because it might fail because there's a category does something magical and that suggested that there was a catalyst that's catalyzing the chemical reactions that happen during cooking produces explosion of aroma and tough to to live because you have to dig up the soil these things are loosely adherent to the roots of the soybean plant so you have to and you can candidate all those steps and it basically becomes extremely difficult to scale expensive on top of which you know I correct yeah so basically I knew that distinctive red color you don't see that almost anywhere in plants but yeah every plan settle in every cell pretty much on earth requires him because it's part of the that we started out with pursue pursuing this idea it was my idea so I can I can acknowledge that it's a bad idea without hurting anyone's feelings thing it by fermentation and and that's how we produce it now right so it's through a genetically modified yeast a bunch of reasons why you know I ultimately came to the conclusion that this was not a good idea and so we moved to produce on something that ultimately failed and it won't be the last time and it failed because extracting an adequate amount of he contains more than all the meat consumed in the US and that I think calculation was cracked the only problem is that it's a very inconvenient place for that it's kind of a fragile system now you when you do that you have a bunch of dirt with the root nodules embed it and was really the major single major effort in the company and it basically was a dead end it it it got US enough of this team protein from everything from Para Museum to Mung Bean to barley from an environmental standpoint it's not a good idea to be turning over the soil because it releases carbon stored in the soil and so forth so there were there were came from this route Nigel in lagoons became too like cost intensive or labor and it was just it was multiple difficult first of all any good experiment might fail if not failing a pretty decent fraction of the time you're not you're not bald enough you're not doing an really interesting stuff ask because we we just associated so heavily with me products yeah absolutely and associate you know it's it's got a very shoe that really has a high concentration of him and that's because the the nitrogen fixation kind of chemistry is sensitive Loxton concentration so they have to be looking at as really the best one from a food standpoint and so we put decide I ki- mclovin gene into yeast and and that enabled us to produce sit at very large scale right so you don't have to till the soil and the same way and it doesn't involve that kind of labor intensity yes exactly agencies you know have already scrutinized it and basically no this this safe system whereas a root nodule who knows what's in there so there's more do you have to separate out the root nodules and in order for it to be food safe and and then you have to bio chemically purify the hime protein involved to be delicious did not evolve to be food okay evolution was not selecting was not optimizing the cow for you know the or team per proteins that we know of and try a bunch of them because given this approach it's basically just we can pop gene in for whatever he in protein teams the food to actually even us as to produce some protein based drugs for for therapeutic purposes and so forth so the FDA and the regulatory so ultimately after looking at a bunch of team proteins including one that I loved although it was never going to be good for food that was vivid future waiting for performance and food and it's really not very good for that purpose it oxidized very readily it's it's got a narrower solubility range and so forth question marks on the other things that the yeast have their own system for producing him they they make their own team and the hime itself which is best and and produce a lot of that for our use and we looked at like three dozen different implementations team protein only be more economical than than digging these root nodules out of the ground and and so we pursued that route and things these plants that have human them don't appear to be read no actually the nodules are vivid they are yeah you cut open a route nargile in like amplified up its own genetic system for producing him and then and then gave this soybean protein to hold and nothing like that happens with the plan I mean you cooked Broccoli gets warmer and much easier and and you know maybe caramelized or something like that but you know literally one of the very first things down this project was I pulled up some clovers from a little hill that's that's in my neighborhood and and amount the team so are the Najah lls themselves read or is it just because the he is in such low concentrations that these of different kinds of labor and it's actually a safer way to produce it because we use an organism that's already been well studied for safety for Houston but no other parts of the plant has that kind of high concentration and yeah which is why it was so tantalizing to me because you know not direction there are actually it's interesting there are soybean farmers who've been growing soybeans their whole life that have no idea that the that there are bright red on the inside super interesting so you figure out this thing and then how do you figure out the rest of what ultimately becomes the impossible we could I knew that we could produce it by from tation by just introducing the gene for this plant protein into some organism like east it wasn't clear how economical would be just that oh man these things are like practically for free because no one's using them for anything yeah it hadn't even occurred to anyone to even look in of to produce any particular texture juicing us it's just an incidental property that when you cook them which they didn't evolve because pictures of it literally take a close up of it you might mistake it for a freshly sliced steak and Paulo bunch of them and then just cut cut up the root nodules basically just wanted to see for myself you know is there really a lot of human sort of understood what by studying meet we understood what were the salient kind of biophysical properties of a protein that we needed you know to produce those characteristics textual change with cooking the juicy news finding that the uh-huh uh-huh small molecule cofactor it's a little a little nugget of a molecule that's that's held by the protein which keeps it side caller so it was like unbelievably beautiful to look at but no one would probably want to eat it Andy Reid at soil hemoglobin which is the same thing we'd been for was the one that performed best in food and and people often say well why didn't you just use bovine globe well the cow promise well we're still in the process of of we're still trying to understand how meat works better and better all the time but a match so we don't we don't need to use identical proteins there's nothing you know the proteins in muscle tissue again they didn't evolve act you know they they undergo a textile transformation and the leaks some juice and stuff like that so we her the other ingredients to create that kind of texture and the way that cooks aroma and everything else that you know is necessary for you to deliver on your and sort of early summer when the sort of the peak growth exciting plant you cut open and it looks like you just cut open a steak I could show you we knew relatively early on some of the features of the the proteins responsible for texture that we need aromas and so forth and because most of the flavor molecules that conformity flavor are fat soluble it literally is we then one interesting thing that that opened up his head well we don't need to just US soil hemoglobin We can just look at all the interesting you look at these things when I start realized that we needed a hime protein well I didn't realize that we needed it but it was kind of suspicious that we would I looked at him fine plant based way to match them So you arrive at your using potato right and understand because the fats are important for mouth feel they're important for on the cooking properties because the the melting fat contributes that cooking coconut oil or the other two main things Coconut and sunflower oil I have to look roughly in there and they're bright pink wow and yeah so it was very tantalizing to me that those properties right so anyway there are a bunch of a bunch of properties that we you know identified that were important and then of a delivery system for for those molecules to produce the taste so but you've gotta tune it right you can't just use any random fat to to get chewing us yes the cohesion and then fats they're also things about the fats that are important Bovine Maya Globe in which is the protein that's in beef etc and what we were optimizing the available supply chain for we actually found some other proteins that trauma performance standpoint in in in many ways are better on and sort of protects it against off reactions and so forth yeast makes its own him and so in terms of production all we did was we kind of let even better and and this is just the way this this is you know the advantage of a technology shift you can say that but the point is it never lost again because the horse never got any faster and you switch to technology platform that gives you the better every single day and we can make a product whatever product that's as good as the best version that ever came from an animal a week later we can make it toil modulate the melting temperature which is important for mouth feel and in some of the cooking behavior the potato protein equivalent amounts so sunflower Some of the sunflower oil contains fats and they participate in the flavor chemistry the coconut in terms of central amino acids and a whole bunch of things that that consumers care about right you can continually tweak that is there because of textural property that confer so we you know not just any random protein will will match the characteristics that we need so we searched and actually better performing so this is a process of constant this is the the decisive advantage that we the texture juicy or or whatever is desirable there and and that's a huge advantage and also the economics and the nutritional at the apparel would be in transportation the first mechanized transportation system they kind of like you know bubbling so just being kind of disperses we have over the incumbent technology it's that the cow stop getting better at what it's doing you know million years ago and we a lot of plant proteins to define the right ones found the potato protein we found some others but the potato protein was there was famously lost a race to a horse okay locomotive and in eighteen thirty five I think but uh-huh flavor and everything that consumers care about and we have people who are trained tasters this kind of like how a fragrance company have these people with these special noses that can smell things that ordinary people can't like how do you evaluate taste in identify some flavor component that we think makes our product better we can died in immediately right for or find a way to me market that's just something important to keep in mind because our goal is not to perfectly match the cow version it's to out perform it L. D. to optimize every important future of it and continue to optimize it and that's what we've done that you know if if we yeah that's a really good question and it's also really complicated question so for one thing you know everybody has their own notion of give us very quantitative objective measurements of sort of the chemical composition of the aroma and flavor and but there didn't exist supply chain for them we're actually in the process of trying to create a supply chain for for some better plant proteins that are potentially more scalable appearance and overall likeability and so forth because that's also very important yeah in other words we're not trying to please these highly under features in food putting this case meat but also they've they've been trained on particular vocabulary for communicating because yes that's that's almost equally important is that you can't just make your own random metaphors or something like that it's not it's not useful so rely heavily on testing where we get one or two hundred con just random consumers who are meeting consumers from the world and we asked them what the Ideal Burger tastes like the ideals take tastes like and so forth so there's not like an agreed upon he trained tasters we want to please many consumers as possible yeah so that's really important and then we also use analytical instruments that that can can give us in the train tasting is not only kind of like they've trained their ability to discriminate particular discovered that people deemed to be the most important aspect of what makes a burger a burger like when you pull these people and a profound so forth so we don't have cholesterol we have lower saturated fat we have actually slightly higher quality protein a Tude but it it kind of gives you a surrogate measure to tell you if you're going in a good direction yeah in addition to hime what have you in addition to all the geniuses in PhD's that you have on your rnd team do you bring in people that are expert in taste the flavor the Roma you know during cooking the the texture that specifics of a texture that chewing as the juicy news the appearance is really important I would say the it's more agile than bring hundred people together in a room to test you know hope you know bunch of prototypes that you're looking at it's no subsidy to rate are you know each version that we're trying out on flavor and texture and Oh and it gives you away then you can you can more objectively a measure of your progress in particular direction so we do use trained testers we and we're constantly optimizing all of them my own view about which one is the most it wouldn't win the competition with the cow if the flavor and color were good but the texture was mushy we wouldn't win if we didn't nail the flavor portent I mean it just changes all the time based on what we're focusing on but I think you know if if if the color were off and the flavor and texture we're good taste like how have you integrated on that kind of feedback yeah well the thing is that it's almost it's almost not that where we've annotate a lot of the compounds based on their how they smell and what they contribute and so forth and that enables us you took a very biochemistry approach to solving a very hard problem the hard problem being what makes me tasteless if it didn't have the right media after-taste you have to rely on all cylinders and it's interesting to think like it's really twelve to figure out which is the most important because they're all important and unless you do the Gel on all of them people will be dissatisfied with but yeah the the you know try to learn what's working what's not working what is it that people come back to you and say is the texture aroma is at the after Norton what the room smells like when you walk into the kitchen somebody's cooking it's not just what it tastes like in your mouth it is the entire three hundred sixty degrees experience of working with this product I one thing that so early on when we were just getting ready to commercialize it we were giving all times and you need to blow people's mind because meet The behavior of meat when it cooks is the problem of producing delicious Meaty Flavour get simpler you don't have to kind of like why why would that be it's because there's something magical that happens when you cook meat and it's a it's a big part of can be flavor and delivering it and one of the neat side products I mean side effects of that is when you understand how meat works is a system take the hundreds of molecules that make up the aroma profile of meat and figure out a way to cram them into a product you have to be able to cook it to your liking again something you can't do with Veggie Burgers so you know we had to have the only thing that married right based but we don't care about them from a consumer standpoint it it's all about delivering for the Meat Lover and and we can't kid ours else you know we have to deliver what they care about and and the experience of cooking is a big part of it and the versatility so there's very rare while it has to not only look but the texture and the juicy and the flavor has to match veggie burgers just simple amino acids vitamins simple sugars unsaturated fats and a catalyst bank you just need simple amino acids to simple bio-molecules they're not only simple but there are abundant and cheap okay unlike the fake flavors that go into alone our product is that it has to deliver for meat lovers we don't care about anyone else like I'm being you know many people I love are are entirely thank you get the magic you get all those flavors for free and you make it sound so easy well it's actually it's an interesting thing that I think the pleasure that chefs get with it that there's this transformation of flavor there's an explosion of Aroma it's it's and it's something that never get a veggie Burger plant based product or anything like that so it's kind of like it's mystical magical magical it's it's you know it's just basic chemistry but it's magical in the sense that you know this transformation happens you can is also the fact that you know Burger and if it's well done it has to match well done and you're not going to solve that by making kind of a pre concocted product that you know tasteless on an complicated properties but then it turns out that the underlying magic is relatively simple and it goes from being and a recurring thing that would happen is they would cook with it and they would say this just blows my mind okay cooked Burger but doesn't have the magic and the only way you get the magic is by understanding them kind of biochemistry the underlying variance I think and and the language that that people and chefs used when they do it you know it's a very commonly that literally like this blows my mind I've heard that multiple you know a big hairy problem like the problem of how do we how do we make food that delivers everything that me lovers care about and does a better job of it in the cow happens is when you get down to the fundamentals and you really know how the system works it gets much simpler yeah well that's that's something that that seems like a big hairy problem and conceivably could have turned out to be very problem but very often burger but in reality your company is the value of your company is in this database that you've created through the result of all the science I stumbled across in preparing to speak to you today which is that it's easy to think of impossible foods as just the impossible put into it that is really drilled down into how to make all these different flavors using plants as a source right that you can then you know well first of all the way I defined the value of a company is our ability to achieve our mission I mean we're serious body of producing enough of the products that that that meat lovers crave and making them better than the than the corresponding animal derived products is why I would say pretty much most of it is just the knowledge that we've been accumulating and you know we're doubling almost doubling AH performing for consumers okay and and that really does come down to building the know how so that you have the capability you often find when you when you try to understand in a fundamental way a system it goes from like it's got thousands of of things going on that you can win in the marketplace yeah and and succeed and yes a lot of what puts us in a position to be able to do this is figured out a lot of things about you know all kinds of meat flavors fish flavor you know how to control textures RND team side because we don't we're not kidding ourselves okay there's still there's still a lot of heart problems to solve ahead we extrapolate on to make all different kinds of different kinds of beef products and chicken products and ultimately fish dairy and the and the rest right and making product that you know American consumers will buy doesn't solve the problem for them so may want to serve it as tar tar while has to behave as tar tar has to have that raw meat start are they may like it to cook there there I twenty thirty five we want to have essentially eliminated the use of technology by beating them in the marketplace economics of those ingredients work out and that's something that we spend a lot of time on it's also really important for food security I mean you know part of our have a system that asymptotically as much less expensive and then and then with scale you you win there but you have to like the right choices you have to have ingredients that are inherently scalable you half and and where the you know the and I mean although plenty of them do but until we get to that point we're not done and and and and asymptotically so the ingredients that we've chosen now based on their underlying economics we should be able to be much cheaper one or at scale and I think that's that's incredibly important even in the developed world because consumers are prices love a lot of problems fast and in parallel and that have to do with every aspect of goal is to improve global food security by basically making you know right now meet is one of the most important sources of protein in iron in the global diet he knows and stuff like that but we're not at a point where every meat lover is basic never gonNA anything but an impossible Burg right we have to be able to to get better at flavor at at Aroma at juicy nece texture and also another very important thing is that we have to be I mean wild animal on earth by factor of ten and but fish would say is probably a close second his number one the overwhelmingly the land footprint of animal agriculture is cows yeah like I said they outweigh the incumbent products on cost yeah but that comes with scale it comes with scale but it doesn't come automatically scale it you have to have brand in terms of how you've launched this product and introduced it to the public and there are similarities the protein deficiency and iron deficiency are probably the two most common nutritional deficiencies in the world. There's almost a billion people are protein deficient almost we are going to be working over the next couple of years hard on on getting textures right because there's different textual properties of of making the product better the products better and be able to launch a bunch of new products were you know one of the things that over the next and slowly over time building scale around it to create products that are more affordable and I thought it was fascinating that you mentioned earlier suppress about the fish yeah fish for sure I mean fish I would say in terms of environmental impact you can debate but I would say and so that's all of those are important goals and and we see many ways to improve on all those axes you know going forward with our so I would say when we launched and still today the most important thing we get from every sale of our product is one whose livelihood and reputation depends on serving their consumers great food and great meat in particular nation that it is not possible to make a plant based product that delivers what they crave for meat the product To some of these high end chefs like David Chang being you know probably the most prominent of them to get it into the hands of these you know because you know the global fish populations are down by half the demand still out ways the ability of the population to reproduce themselves famously few years ago banned vegetarian items from his menu right okay he's a meet God and and I mean people who are iron deficient in the world mostly in the parts around the equator and and that's a huge problem this is something that if you're a meat lover you will actually like to eat and so the most effective way to send that message is have if we have a product that delivers on flavor you know outperformed flavor and nutrition and it's cheaper it's game over right people that we kind of revere culturally who are taste makers and are influencing culture and a pretty you know Mitch in substantial way to get them on and and that meant that the most important messed most important thing we need to accomplish with each sale is to maximally send the message that meet the big obstacle that we saw to our success is that every mediator has a very strong and this is true now very strong preconceived the chefs that we were Particularly working with are people who are particularly revered as meech fs okay Dave Chang Lord and then get everyone talking about what's happening which is very different from we have this product like let's get it into grocery stores as soon as possible and make it as affordable as possible minute production capacity our entire factory so to speak was probably not much bigger than your garage and everybody so walk me through the thinking behind how you've positioned to the branding of this and and how you're introducing this to the public okay meet and a meet application that's usually valuable as an endorsement to us and when we launched we had very we're gonNA really build up is is work on a whole bunch of other products that we want launched you know in the next few years does and so that's a really urgent problem to solve and we're working on it and you know we've made a huge amount of progress on fish flavor ernest of our brand and and you know and a change in psychology that plant based products don't suck as and some money that they get from the sale it's the brand building value on creating inexperience that exceeds all expectations exactly and to protect the impossible brand within the context of the restaurant like it's not they're not serving their you know so the people that we we wanted to work with and if he's willing deliberately on his own to put something on his menu and sell it as the restaurant has a stake in curing experience and making sure that the way it's presented to you is delicious okay and the way a sleepy is ideally to be in a situation where someone's done a good job preparing it the other thing is that you're more likely to be orig- and also because the other reason that we've built this big team is that we don't want to do it methodically over a long period of time we want at least within the restaurant and kind of food hyper aware community impossible as a very strong brand most of the world breath then when we we're able to increase our capacity we've still focused on food service because it they can call it whatever they want they have to use the word impossible in it right like whether you're a new Mommy Burger or Burger King it's the impossible so we had a very small supply and we wanted to get the maximum bang for the buck out of every say I think it was probably I don't really know that the history behind Tesla's upper right so just keep that foothold it's interesting though because what happened was from a very early stage we established the way for example Tesla began by having this aspirational very high end product that created a bunch of demand eating in group if you're in a restaurant at least most people are so more people can get exposed to it by sharing and the rest fish tissues and yeah that's that's GonNa be really important you've made some really interesting choices as so overworked person coming home and slapping something on their their you know in a pan isn't necessarily going to be able to do so we wanted people's first experience it means something to a consumer that this is an impossible burger and not just some random veggie patty so we don't we have no power over them Mo and most of the US still hasn't heard of it okay but what that means is that they get value from it that beater full stop or wine or for you know some no name coffee or whatever want is doing more to advocate for the product then a grocery store grocery store there's fifty thousand point so so which is a I would say much more on a per sale basis much more effective way of exposing consumer star product for one thing so anyway so we've we've done I mean we put a lot of effort into how we launched to really focus early on you know go to market approach but I think it was probably similar in the sense that they had limited production capacity and the most important thing they needed to achieve with every sale was not the way it was a I think a very sensible strategy and you know we haven't done the control you use your name no but the thing is it's greatly to their advantage you know if you go restaurant and basically they sell no not on generating revenue but generating positive brand awareness and so forth and that that has created the incentive for restaurants too but you're seeing more and more places you guys have raised seven hundred fifty million dollars something like that today and you're now in how many restaurants nine thousand this is something that you know you can only get if you places which kind of increases intrigue again and and and consequently demand yeah yeah but I think it worked no thinking I think it was a brilliant strategy and kind of in line with that you you guys have always made sure you don't you don't expect it to be as good and you probably won't pay as much for it if it's got a brand means something it's more desirable to consumers something that they they like seek it out in in grocery stores in a way that if it was just some whatever generic thing you of the brand that we've been building if they just put it on there anonymously yeah I mean we've all had the experience of going into random restaurant so we have red robin we have a lot of other really great burger chains Fat Burger in La area actually an amazingly delicious sausage product that I mean it's People Hamami Burger and you're doing like a sausage product with little caesars also yeah so we have put it on the menu as a branded product which kind of becomes a positive feedback loop and and it's going to help us when we launched in retail because sadly some kind of international roll out with them meanwhile you have you know beyond me aligning with Carl's junior and you're seeing this kind of wires and you order the Veggie Burger the Veggie Patty and some nondescript hockey puck kind of thing versus Oh they have the impossible burger so most of our sales basically are just a restaurant decides they want to put on their menu they buy it from a distributor we can't compel contractually obligating them your biggest customer they have to be right yes yeah and they're huge internationally right so imagine there's plans for you know I don't know if you can speak to that but crazy about it and we did our first kind of test launch with little caesars we're talking to quite a number of other accustom coalescing of the fast food industry you know kind of canvassing what's available in the plant based Meat Sector it's undeniable that this is a growing trend you know at least a lot of consumers who've had our products in restaurants and or or know about it and and recognized as a meaningful brand half dollars and by twenty thirty is projected to be three trillion dollar global market so there's plenty of money to sustain has has fed into you know intrigue in interest in what you guys are doing I remember when you could just think Mommy Burger was the only place yeah and and you know scaling fast basically you have to spend a head of your growth to get squirrel production and and what's so bad about eight thousand two how many were in now and and then we have other white castle white castle there's one number that's worth keeping in mind is that right now the global market for foods made using animals is about trillions you know just sustain this industry and and and that's important because you know we need to scale fast so so we don't have to compel the restaurant tourists to do it and we can't and we don't but they the same value to it they they lose all the the yeah but I think the thing that were just at the beginning of what I think will be just a continuing and probably accelerating surge la where you could get a except for crossroads maybe one or two other right and now slowly you know it's becoming a you know it's not ubiquitous yet it would be the best thing in the in in the Meat Department but but there'd be no way of people pretty cool yeah yeah well the gradual roll out yeah I think it definitely there's about about launch various form factors on pizza or as a breakfast patty or things like that and it and every you know supply chain etc so this is why it's it's it's this is why we raised a bunch of money because because you need that for for being able to see toward plant based products placing animal derived products and there's so many interesting things behind that first of all the the reason that it's kind of been just every product and other stuff is that they're just not there yet but they will they're getting better all the time there's a lot happening you know to make these products not just incrementally better but vastly better consumers perceptions are correspondingly changing from thinking Lee is incredibly good gotta try it I haven't tried that yet so here we are I presume that Burger King then becomes end though I would say it's either ten thousand or approaching ten thousand and by the time this is out we'll be national burger king they have about eight thousand restaurant lovers are basically realizing that this is actually really good is and it's getting better I think there's a positive feedback loop here and rich and he and his I kicked it around and eventually they said well this is a pretty good pretty good try but this is clearly delivering the things that are important to consumers deliciousness being overwhelmingly the number one but nutritional value and affordability you win if cattle and stuff like that and it's etcetera etcetera but but basically the point is those kinds of things were people who are absolutely uncompromising me it's only gonNA continue to grow I mean you know there's varying reports on the market cap is here but it's in the you know the I dunno a six hundred billion dollars or something do not consider the fact that this is made from the cadaver of an animal to be part of the value proposition it's actually a negative it's not enough of negative to outweigh totally marginalized thing until very recently is to be frank the products from meteors perspective just sucked and and this is even true and it's infused with like gender politics what it means to be a man to be masculine and that has a lot to do with me even if they're getting like they're projecting in the next decade so it's not going away I don't know I probably have that we'll be able to crazy numbers well there even know what it is because I never actually watched it but someone sent me the link of this Guy Glenn Beck he's a right wing kind of Guy his producer meat lovers love their meat because it's delicious good source of protein and iron convenient affordable inspired when you're not at a disadvantage that's right although I would say that there is a caveat to that which is needs to be redressed ultimately I think we none of us like the fact that an animal has to die for our food that they're still that thing get at the grocery store barbecuing at home and there's something about that emotionally or sociologically that I think still ninety percent horses to ninety percent automobiles in households because what they really cared about was not that you know we lost learned something really interesting in in talking to meat lovers they don't love the fact that their meat comes from animals this is a really important point all the positives of the century pleasure that get from it but but what it means is that if you focus on in plant based products live with every day and you you're taking care of and so forth and is part of the household and you would have said well you know yeah we have motor vehicles but I don't know how large this sector of the population is but there is a swath of people who who have an emotional connection to the meat that they eat consumers really care about ultimately is that it's as delicious as it can possibly be it has the nutritional value they care about and you can do it you WanNa do with it and so forth I think that that you deliver that you you outperforming the things that consumers care most about and okay it's a plant based product I'm GonNa try it because it's going to be terrible we actually you should watch this there's this there's this radio show no they're the power in their transportation had four legs and a tail and an ears it was that it made the vehicle move and what me you're so because it wasn't just that it came from the cow and some farm thousand miles away and you're somehow emotionally connected that animal in this case basically this animal the made from cow and that was impossible and then and then he was kind of carrying on because he's a rancher Texas rancher and you know raises the fact that it's made from the cadaver of an animal meat lovers almost almost universally and it doesn't matter where in the country or the world but we got this emotional attachment to the horse on that's going to be no took about a decade for the for for the automobile completely flip from you know kind of pranked him by an his sidekick by giving him hop body as one of the changes that sells our product in Texas very big in Texas very good chain actually a much more fragile and superficial than than people give it credit for and you know two hundred years ago you said the same thing about the horse right I mean even and and I think we'll we'll find that that you know association with an animal is the production system is not valued much even a great burgers and Gave them to hop dowdy burgers was made with the cow the other was made when the impossible patty and gave him a blind test us and asked him okay which is samples of our product a lot of chefs okay that you know were kind of Meat Gurus and by the hardest core Meat Lover and association with Masculinity I think that it's something that so you know kind of in some societies sort of culturally programmed and it can just as easily be you know with cultural shifts history well when you when you have a guy like Glenn back you know I mean that's that's huge were a certain been ignored by scientists or anything like that there's there's First of all protein protein the molecules made up of a string of me no acids and from a nutritional standpoint protein is just it just depends on those amino acids and particularly the essential amino acids and their relative proportions and so forth that's that made from plants but that is that is going to change a lot as consumers see more and more evidence that that you know the most are better than beef and that's you know that's simple demonstrable even soy is one of them then you should look at there are people who have never had meat in their entire lives including my three kids maybe your kids there delicious meat in the world can come from plants right what about the argument that comes up that protein from animals is superior yes and regular regular Burger King Loving customers and yeah and that's that's really what it comes down to is you've got it incredibly smart excellent athletes I think my son could beat you in a race in a running race and probably probably uphill jeff wine I mean if you if you look for like what are the what are the strongest markers of you know risk for shorter life idea is one is one of them but anyway the point is that here's the experiment that a non issue that this is made from plants the reason it's a big issue is at that people just think it cannot possibly deliver the things they value from meat so you know you need for optimal health right I have one or something like that the hormonal content you do not want more until the he accidentally gave it yeah and then there's the video of the people give the consumer the pleasure has faction that they need and you know all those sorts of things and it becomes it's what defines the nutritional value of a protein there are lots of plant based proteins that from the standpoint of the proportion of essential Amino Acids Burger King and you know I don't know people have seen that I'll link it up in the show notes but he's consumers who are convinced that they just eaten a normal wolper and more surprised to find out that so a lot of meteors think that there must be some kind of you habit okay maybe it's not the protein maybe it's something else that magic ingredient in meat that the incredibly smart nothing missing so it's just a complete myth and also there's lots of reviews and the the protein plants well first of all it's complete bullshit and there's and there's you know this is not something that has animals are tended to and slaughtered etc to more recent iterations of protectionism in the form of for you but I know that comes up and it's like yeah I get it but like you know there's no protein protein that I'm getting in the animal never eaten meat in their lives and their thriving they they're successful professionally there's accessible athletes their their you know I think that will vaporize very quickly when they're great plant based products when there's more and more evidence that that people you respect for all the all the qualities in an entirely plant based diet is completely healthy at all stages of life yeah there's no you don't have to sell me on that no I know Tori viewpoint there's some very interesting things that are happening right now they are not going to go quietly into the night so we have everything I think that I expect those efforts to continue I think that ultimately those laws will be found on constantly yeah no that's true too but anyway but that that's not the point the point is and I think this is a point that you try to make all the time that there's new compromise in terms in the nutrition science literature that that just systematically address all the evidence that not only a meatless diet but Korea it's propagate and part by the desire to rationalize it strong taste from it meet the veggie Patty veggie Burger as a veggie Burger you can't even use the word Veggie Burger do describe your product meets enteric dairy plant and dairy although I think that in a way that cow has left the barn so to speak but again this is one of these myths that I think is is propagated in part gets encouragement from the the thing from you know famously the AG gag laws that are preventing consumers from truly understanding how these products are manufactured and packaged and how these of your health and nutrition if you have no meeting diorite period it's demonstrably true it's it's there have been you know there are hundreds of millions of people that evaluate yourself are eating entirely plant based Diet and and you know we'll look back on it and just say what interested in our products and won't be interested in our products because of their name if we have to educate consumers that this product which you know I think I think it's a it's a major part of the current strategy that the industry is trying to do to throw roadblocks in the way of plant based on TV you've eaten it at barbecues you know what it is okay what's the big deal people don't love beef because and call it what you want it sitting there in the meat case you've seen you know chefs cooking care about to meet only better it'll be no problem I mean it's this it'll just be kind of a minor short-term inconvenient kind of surged we were preparing to scale up production we are already hiring for you know additional shifts at our production plant and and that these laws actually hang on it's not going to stop you know consumers are not and designing additional production line and stuff like that so we knew it was coming but it just came much faster than anticipated hey grace to because he's incredible climber I don't WanNa slow down the challenge because he's he he hasn't been warned I am very too but what are you doing well let's talk about the industry a little bit the big Eh big AG industry from a legislative and I want to meet people will not have any trouble figuring it out right I mean well it's preposterous that they would and and that was obviously you know a big problem because the customer National and they'll certainly be some some court battles over them but I think it's not it's it if they wanted look if if they said you have to call it something completely different okay I've just make up a name that it makes they love the name right I never thought about that yeah right well in order to for example this law that just passed in Mississippi that is from my understanding criminalising labeling a actualize this this this mission that you're on you have to reach tremendous scale and you guys are working our way towards that some issues with meeting the demand was so high like you were having trouble even fulfilling on that so scale is like I would imagine one of your huge focuses it's terrible and we I can just tell you it doesn't do any good we feel terrible about the fact that any of restaurant customers suffered any consequences we did everything we possibly could which wasn't enough to to try to get product to our customers while we were any cases taking a risk putting our our product on their menu nothing worse than if you're in the restaurant business which is you know calling Amethyst or whatever is is actually you know identical in all the ways distributors running out which means the downstream distributors have been running the restaurants and stuff like that but anyway when we saw this happening you've recently had kind of hockey hockey stick growth that was almost I would imagine on some level maybe unexpected because you ran in in this deficit situation and then we just scramble like wild to get out of it including You know when we when we saw it do I have that right and honestly I don't know the details law but you you have it close enough the labeling law war here is interesting right now sure so I mean the fundamental problem that I think we've learned a great lesson when the demand dicey business to begin with and consumer comes in for a product they know on your menu and you're out of it at thirty eight degrees Fahrenheit you know doing not the science that you sign up to do but basically stacking burgers twenty four hour production with people with Experience Faculty Factory Workers People with experience in the food industry and admit that it's confusing the consumers is ridiculous oh no of course it is that's why I think it's not going to hold up to any kind of a legal challenge but but but my point or doing something like that so that we could add additional shifts and and catch up to the demand and within twenty one hundred people signed up to volunteer to work or any plant producing that amount when there's no customer but then we have to suddenly be producing that amount so we need that agility and we need to invest ahead of the growth meaning we need to anticipate there's that are basically what we depend on for our whole mission and have been incredibly loyal and you know have and and so now we're catching up and we in fact we've replenish the distributors and I think that we're not gonNa let that happen again every year from now until twenty thirty five to achieve our mission it's GonNa be it's GonNa be this this is going to be the challenge all the wrong right to go across the bay which isn't terrible slap and it's an hour maybe and worked twelve hour shifts that either start or end at three am and for a time more than half of the people who are working there over the course of week we're basically from our team not not that coming and also the the the thing about the food distribution system is that is that the demand signals take awhile to filter back to you because there's these two distribution nodes between being prepared for a wide range of possible trajectories so that we can be agile if the demand surges I put out a call to everybody in our company that wasn't working in the factory basically saying we need volunteers and what we're asking you to do it's kind of like shocked is that even in the I would say virtually inconceivable but exceedingly unlikely chance that they that we need to make products that can compete on an even playing field successfully against the right well so the some of the responses don't require rnd innovation they just require us to do and what we've done is we've really changed the way we plan our business which is very heavily focused on in the business of you know you don't know for sure the slope some of the growth comes kind of not entirely predictably like you know we didn't know whether but the problem the fundamental problem is when you're growing you know like more than two fold a year like really really super fast question because as you grow and scale the ability to be agile he comes under threat right so the fact that you've got to be super protection going to be producing the demand is going to be you know several fold greater year and we have to make the investment extra capacity which or win Burger King would sign on his customer and when they did bang it's a big thing we you know other big customers sign-on well we can't be asked about the RND that you're doing and making sure that you have avenues in place where you can iterating innovate Quickly to respond melt cheeses and you know all these different products that we've spent some time doing basic research on and so forth but that's still quite a step from mission and from our standpoint you know we tell the team okay sometime in the next few years we're going to have fish and chicken pork and Bacon and and new and the customer so the there's a delay and then you start seeing that the distributors all the categories of products that that are made using animals or achieve our mission and we're GonNa do it I mean I'm completely can't just you know you could save from a business standpoint we could do the same thing with much lower risk by just kind of you know slow and steady you a lot more of the same thing that we already know how to do very suddenly like just scale the existing production but but the other thing you're alluding to I think is that and we if the demand just as expected or ready for that and if there's some reason that demand goes down ready for that yeah it's a tricky you know people we had hired for the production team and then we just geared up hiring like mad and we have to have a high standard for her because you know we're producing food and it's not the people who have been in this for awhile and the more you know about the more confident you are because you can see the space of possibilities space of possible solutions it's prior yeah I mean there's about how to run and build a company I mean I haven't I haven't growth and so forth we can't we have to we have to take the risks to grow on the steep curve because that's you know better what are the problems you need to solve and what's likely to be entailed in solving them before you've solved them completely you lose that revenue lose also the revenue from the other stuff that you would have sold with it you've needed a consumer and so for us good well and where I would imagine you had to go on a crash course learning about leadership and management and all of these things that were not part of your professional experience the joke you know so anyway bottom line is we managed to kind of re staff three shifts now but it's you know it's it's a big climb yeah it's gotta be exciting though I mean this trajectory that you've been on from academia to now you know making a product that that competes on even playing field for consumer not just nice try and that's why we're beefing up our team but products that have been on the market for a thousand years and win on their merits and that's a that's a high bar and we need to do that for you know sitting atop this two billion dollar company and having you know being responsible for hundreds of people has put you in a position what we we we picked a time target because of the urgency of this and you know of climate change and the meltdown biodiversity and so forth we legal issues and the the basic blocking and tackling of building a business. Okay but I know where to find people who do and get someone like Dennis and suddenly you know I can I don't have to I know this this whole part of the company but one thing I hand even there was so my my labs research has always been very kind of like basic discovery driven you've research it's it's a lot of the thought processes are similar but when you're when when when you're on a on under timeframe responsible for all the basic doing very well all the basic stuff of running a business and and managing the finances and Magic Colton Shackleton's allegedly all yeah basically we're asking you to volunteer I sure having to solve specific practical problems okay it's it's it's a different set of things like when when we were all the the business operations I know how to you know kind of leader rnd team large because mostly what we needed to do I was to study the problem and and understand what we needed to do and recognize right away there's a whole bunch of things that I don't know how to do well and I don't have time to learn how to do them so you get Dennis Wins Woodside so and I hired someone straight out of Stanford Business School Very Smart Guy still working at the companies out of our international growth and he was basically is in is is in the best possible hands when I first formed the company I I felt like well I don't know anything about the and and you know solve this packaging issue or whatever it's it's it's it's gotten rnd democ experience yeah right yeah and that's something that that but fortunately again there there there are people who are good at that that could help and they're great collaborators you can build a team in a culture that's incredibly strong and I would say the make or break thing you need to get right is to hire great people and and if you hire people then they actually taken a course and one thing I would say one thing I've learned or one thing I did that I I in retrospect I think was was an important thing to do was in the world right now and arguably the most important mission in history because the fate of the planet is in the balance and I've worked on carbon capture and so forth very capital intensive very hard to imagine how whatever scale we have the most scales because the basic premise of the company is right okay and there's huge potential there and I think if you hire great people like literally without a lot of micromanaging by me can you know can grow itself right and and you attract those great people opponent but it's it's it's it's much more practical and it's got time pressure and and that's something that I wasn't initially that you know want to hire other great people and if you're high grade people are not just smart but great like they're kind convinced the more I know about love dot much required no the thing is that because we are in an arms race and there is a ticking clock here there is no 2035 we not going to solve climate change or this biodiversity meltdown any other way and actually I'll just say one thing about climate change even though he didn't ask me about but there's actually have the agency to work on it yeah exactly yeah and the I mean this is this is your you know this is for the people in years worth of fossil fuel emissions okay meaning that if you could snap your fingers and make that industry go away about half of earth entire land area to capture capture carbon from the atmosphere automatically and in at the company their opportunity to be part of the most important I really feel like our mission is the most important mission I was never in a I was never in a position where the team do something on a timeline yeah because that's just not part of the okay discovery research that that is like when I used to do when it morphed into we need to still be doing all that but now we're trying to figure out how do we extend shelf life I operating around the the are like an academic lab basically which was the only thing I really knew how to do and but it was the right thing I think goes hand in hand in some respects I guess loosely with the Regenerative Agriculture Movement which I think there's a lot that's great about that order in sunlight okay and the we got water and sunlight fifty percent of land areas being used honey and and bring that expertise there in terms of leading a team I mean the thing is that the company is successful I think hire great people you have to give them a hugely important problem that's challenging and that's what that's what great people right and have them feel empowered like the there's very interesting aspect about the land footprint of animal agriculture which is the opportunity costs in terms of there's zero evidence so what happens is that that people are extrapolating from the wrong kinds of experiments to say the at the literature I've I've Dug into the data and so forth surrounding regenerative agriculture it's a long conversation but what I can say is there stories animals for food the amount of biomass on that land and it's actually you know been research on this represents about seventy has worked is is putting fertilizer putting fertilizer back into the soil the depleted soil and letting the having a huge mission and giving people interesting problems to work towards that's it you can hire mediocre people by offering a big bucket of money but lane with the farm is and can be as a means of regenerating the soil. Okay so I've spent a lot I'm looking at that we're seeing this sort of small groundswell of people who are adopting this carnivore diet and we build healthy ecosystems so it's it's it's incredibly compelling and it seems unassailable to me change mitigation people are talking about you know here's this very complicated technology for carbon capture okay there's what I find interesting is you know in the same way that that Big Food Big AG will not go quietly into the night and there's a couple more things I want to say about thing we can do is put more cows on the land okay if you take land that that has been depleted by farming and you converted to growing you bet and and since we are going to be doing this you know every year on average doubling we know carbon capture standpoint than continuing to grow those crops the real question is is it so I'm interested in how you're shaking your head I want to hear about this like how what you're saying kind of squares with people who are trying to re all the most highly evolved carbon capture system in the world right at our disposal and it's basically all it requires is land recovery of biomass on that land just without doing anything will immediately start lowering atmospheric c o two concentrations you don't need fancy techniques grass grown it they give the credit to the cows there's zero evidence for that okay so there's no idea being the the the core idea being and if you allow if you just if you just get the feed crops and the cows out of the equation you basically get back system instead of growing you know soybeans or whatever it was on the land planting grass and putting cows on it is it better from favor of that and there's lots of scientific literature on this in many many ecosystems that have looked at whether this works and there's just no evidence the cows being on the land is what's regenerating the soil right and and honestly you just have to look into what what the raw evidence is that cited Angie you just need to kick the cows off the land basically and not at the same time you're going to be solving this biodiversity meltdown because it's all about habitat destruction and degradation sector of the population to see somebody like that you know kind of get on board with and I wouldn't say that he became a big supporter but just the fact for it and the other thing is that the experiments are asking the wrong question which is the question they're asking is is is this in grass how do you do that while I involved splitting ton of fertilizer on the land and then you have cows grazing on the grass what better than a healthy ecosystem that would otherwise exist on that land if not support biodiversity and store biomass not just in the soil but above ground and and like I say there this is one of these things where there are these instead of having ten times The total biomass of every wild vertebrate on Earth fifteen times. Yeah so so this is this is something that I think was initially launched into mainstream awareness by Allan Savory then you know even if you presume virtually anything else but here here's the thing if if instead you allowed the original business and they're just being repeated over and over again and a lot of people just think okay well I keep hearing about this it actually can recover over well typically short period of time a lot of its native flora and wildlife and so forth but the amount of carbon that get stored there I believe he did a tedtalk on this he's a lot of you know people that are following him but on a very elementary elementary level when I look at it and protecting the you know taking care of land they farm and so forth so it's not a question of bad intentions it's just a question of there's no data to support this ah I just can't get around the idea that it's incredibly land intensive it's not scalable like we're not going to be able to feed okay instead of just a little layer of grass that's being continually graze and so forth that you have you know trees and tall grasses and available and where are where's the water coming from like I don't I don't know that accounts for everything and maybe I'm missing something here but it just doesn't seem to make ten billion people on the planet in this way there there may be a place for a very high end you know like the Joel Salatin and people want to you know spend a premium amount of money for me there are people who are doing this I am not questioning their good intentions you know a lot of people who are in the farming ranching business they care deeply about you know protecting the planet and must be a good thing but the scientific foundation for it is essentially no and and if you think that we'd be better off with Manse as a solution that's going to work at scale for a you know quickly escalating population of people where we're already struggling to meet the demand I think the you you hit on the main thing which is that yes it's incredibly land intensive forgetting about whether there's any evidence that this is better nations address what happens when you when you take take land that's being used to raise cattle on you you turned into national park or a state park and so forth but in terms of feeding the planet you need an unbelievable amount of land for these cattle degrees and we're already at fifty percent right there isn't that much moreland do as cows I mean you're smoking crack it's it's it's it's it's just a completely ridiculous idea now one thing I just want to say is will buy amass that exist on that land before it was cleared for farming and grazing and stuff like that to recover and there are lots of public anyway I don't even WanNa get you know this is one of these debates where it generates a lot of heat and it's it's and all this biomass that's Apple Carbonaro the atmosphere not by having cows you know trump soil and something made by Nestle or whomever plant based product my feeling is congratulations that's great the players move in to the sector we've got Nestle Tyson purdue all of these giant conglomerates are recognizing that I'm always kind of even though there's nothing nothing to that culture hanger I don't WanNa get too much

Pat Brown Stanford University Russell founder nantucket US Stanford Roca Burger youtube Howard Hughes Medical Institut Academy of Sciences Institute of Medicine Paul Hawkin UCI Red Robin
Dont Take Pat To The Fight w/ Pat Brown

Rantin' and Ravin'

1:35:06 hr | 1 year ago

Dont Take Pat To The Fight w/ Pat Brown

"This is a stand up New York labs production, providing you podcast since twenty thirteen. Joy away. Big. You know what? Raven imprint wake you up. Hi, welcome to rant and rave in with Yamanaka. Add friends we are back in the building. Sorry last week. We had to take a break, you know, yom's gives it to her moods tire voice. You hear is Pat Brown that was your mood. Actually, my mood. Don't sound like Charlie Brown cartoon. But thank you. I was tired. I overstretched myself. I wasn't ready to come in. I wasn't feeling good. I was exhausted from traveling. And you know, I don't know what's going to happen when I have kids and a husband who's been his. 'cause I don't travel well as a single. So then I gotta inquiry other leagues to the process you have to learn how to they going to need manny's. I'm even going to get my husband, Andy. Okay. Yeah. I'm gamma nanny to and I'm gonna be like you give him a male. Nanny. On if you wanna sleep with her. You know, go go forward rid. Oh, yeah. Modern woman go here on me. That must be that. What is it Baltimore? Thanks baltimore. That's how slang I'm kidding. But in the event that I'm tired. He's more than welcome to walk his somewhere. Go to the deli Pekka pussy. We were on the train Matt Pat, and I wanted to train today and. I was listening to this new guy or you gotta here. Now this mask or start getting a little anxious because he don't like when I play music because none of this cleared. And I was talking with somebody about why are you talking to my Sandra from two to seven. We mean. Yeah. Say are sound like Donald sound like do anything wrong with it out sound. This is my new joint. Pat hates this song. Hey, this is why being Corday? And why be in stands for young Boston ag-? I just found out. I'm trying to join his crew. You gotta watch Pat while it's the play pay. I hate this on. Don't put my name out there. Like that own y be in these young fellows created the. Pat. But you know, what it is Pat. Here's the thing. This is where we at this is this is where we we'd old Nick is now I get that old. Nick is now I don't care. How many hats I wear and how much PS four play. These Nick is. Now, we had a point where these Nick is. Now, take a look at us. And we looked like they dammed Grammy. That's what it is. I'm okay with it. But I don't know that that that'll may not the play their music. Listen. I could never understand. Why somebody why Ursula would try to suck the life out of the little mermaid bitch was names? Little mermaid. Area rather little digital or mermaid, wow. Come on. Everybody loves looking noodles areo, everybody news area. But the little mermaid bitch little mermaid. That was like why were but the fact that I know Ursula name shows you where I am in in this scenario. Okay. I'm just like why was she still this bitches throat? You know what I'm saying? Like, she still is. But just throw you know, what? I mean it to say because I'm like, no matter how much you still the bitches throat you still like a bum bitch. You know what I'm saying? Like, you ask for the wrong shit, you bitches beautiful whatever in the movies, somehow when she stole a voice, she all of a sudden became, you know, sexy or whatever to, but I'm just saying like, it was all of our boys. So I'm telling you are you trying to steal. Why be voice, oh, I'm trying to I'm trying to hire can date one of these these things it's twenty one and twenty two years old. This is where we add this is where we add you seriously. They know twenty year I can't because they look at me like, I'm damned grandma. But if I could get up in that crew, you were dated twenty euro. You had to put twenty one at least because at least that's government wanting one it's the same dumb. One one. One year. Don't do this way. This is what we thinking about. Now, do I would I should I could I in a K could I would I? Ken, I will lie in your truck. Twenty one. Can we fuck? My nephew is twenty two years old. He's in he's in the armed services. Oh, that'd be the better. Yes. And I love him with all my heart. But I can't stand talking to a twenty one year old along. No, he's in the armed services. And I will talk to him as long as he wants to talk to me. But I'm telling you, the the mind gets a little weary when you talking to a twenty one twenty two year old listen, I don't know we have people rely heavily chocolate to let me know if you would day the twenty one year old it's nice about dating. I don't know why being relationship the Magus. You you have to hear them you have your own tongue. Every time I hear about. Every time. I hear about Utah go even no matter where he is. He's into serves. Now, I always say put your mom on the phone. I'm like, oh, okay. Okay. I can't do that. No more. Eighty nine. For owners words, all people say hell, no one the comments. But I'm gonna tell you something right there. What what what being Meli charged with killing his two best ones afford. When was. Oh, you got a killer. An yoga just say, no, you gotta young. The Y B in crew because I didn't even understand why all these news. You know, what the thing they do? Now that we didn't do back in the day as they all kinda click up in a way like the only click. We knew of was like Wu Tang clan. Right. And they was all part of the Wu and like even rough riders and shit like that. But they never was like you'll sewing so rough rider. I'm listening that rough ride our own name. Now, these kids is putting they like why be in all gotta put y bien before that before they name. So, you know, they part of the same click, accrue, whatever and. I got to look into that. Can you look into why being male Meli? And when he killed these people. Winning. You know? But. Kill them when he was under sixteen feel free. No, it's not. Didn't date you bit like that. But it's not like that. Like when did they get kit 'cause like are awful almond? I'm not I'm just my pussy dry Unisem saying and these niggers out here, I looking at these old league is like, hey. Yikes. Like this. I mean old Nick Izzo. Now. I'm with Nick is the guy with suits shit dinner didn't even have dinner, no more with Nick if they have supper, not no. You know, what's the age? You you at the age where me and putting sweaters? Tuck near sweaters, all the. Chilean dug in their sweaters in their sweat periods. You as supposed to have a sweater on? I got Wyan w Meli is that the one you're talking about. No, why be in its tales for young boss nigger. B? I'm getting rapper the only only one come why in w Meli. Oh, okay. What did you say? Well, what will happen lamb? He was charged in February with for to council. I remember and has also suspect in two thousand seventeen murder of a sheriff's deputy. That shiver may first of all you wouldn't they can get away with shooting sheriff. Really? I what I'm saying is I'm not saying to share what I'm saying is what minimum can't even get away with getting stealing Wrigley Gulf from CBS without killing them. Police coming to kill them. And this the shutter sheriff, and he running wear who was he he must be a ball sneaker. What if you? Because this February favorite twenty nineteen March April may I mean, there's about three months be pleading not guilty in March. You also pled not guilty. Plead most people tend to plead not guilty. They got all the evidence you go. Yeah. And then you plead. Was named to Brian sanity. I mean, that's a pretty hard hard barred provides. You plead not guilty. Because I don't want them coming back to use that against me in a court of law. I'm not saying it's not to say that. I can't be Toronto. I may why not thirties thirties is still dudes steel nine. Not quite as stupid, and then pay did this shit. Who did? Oh is he cute? Let me see what he looked like. These are your you crazy bras, that'd be onto the prison system. Do. Oh, I don't. I'm the bits that get the nigga before he go to prison, but he definitely going to prison. Everything I still is still some dumb shit. We know. Because you don't have to deal with these leagues you gotta deal with bitches nothing. These Nick of this lesson how he is drought. Well, old biggest they deserve bad bitches, and they looking for young. And then a few old nNcholas left. The can't get young. But just is the old peanuts and shit in the back of the damn grocery store. There ain't nobody while us to believe that there is not eligible man out there for you. Why is he 'cause he quit looking at white men on the train? We got we got pause real quick because she going to run this Dan into the ground. So Matt what happened was I was listening to my boyfriend in my ear. Why be in court today? I hope that's how you say his name, and this and mind you I'm not even isn't like that. Because they got over by courage at his mouth and shit like that. But the Knicks reps is nice. So anyway, I was my boyfriend. He my ear. You know, what I'm saying ones? They'll be like, you know school. You know what I'm saying? We'll come back to my little hotel rooms he was. Perv right now. What dammit I deserved the bit. I sit the nigga was twenty one. I said was twelve. Okay. So we wanted to train and this white and they've been looking at me, and that is why nego- all nigger because he had first of all I hate when white because do this shit where they'd comb their hair back with all the most like, they take a comb, and they put it in open bristle brushes, and they put it in water, and then they put a little grease well type of it in a coma back, and it just like if you don't have a full main a hair all in it looked like spaghetti strings going back on your scalp because you all you see the scalp all in between the little parts and shit. And I'm like, why would you brush your hair back like this? So that's how he was. He was staring me. And the is is I was talking to Pat. He looks me in the eyes and was staring. So you know, how you do the stair off Matt where you're like. Okay. I'm outstare you. So you won't get uncomfortable in about three seconds. Right. He went beyond the time. He went on. And I wasn't going to move. I wasn't moving my eyes because I didn't start this game. When I looked to him. He was looking at me get your eyes off of me, Pat, Sydney Eglin. She don't know. She don't see pedal. Leave. Let me tell you build a train repair beating win. Life would pet pet will and some shit to pets. Is useless because she will get a glaze over her. I I she's not even there like she just disappeared. Like kim. Nobody see her. I'm sitting here. Like, I was watching the whole thing. I was watching you out y'all locking is. And all these love emojis were coming out. There's no good men out. There was no. Two white men. And it's a problem. Now, I'll ask secret was white men. And this let me just say this real quick let me just finish with the I Boston with the guy. So we had to eyeball situation. Right. And so he kept looking at me. So I said to him I said, you have beautiful eyes. You hear me you have beautiful eyes. And I said it to him or two or three times to the first time. And he had this moment where he was like he was shocked. He was shocked that maybe this was a love connection. Maybe he's standing the right is maybe his eyeballs fit the silver slippers. Maybe they'll sixty love emojis, mid some. He did not he was trying to play me by looking at me. He was playing me. He wasn't a love with me. And I was certainly not a love with him and that magnum PI vest. He add on. And then I said to him I said, you have beautiful eyes. That's what we're saying. At each other because you have beautiful eyes. I mesmerize by your eyes. And then he goes because he knew I was punking him. If you wanna make an awkward as a motherfucker for you. You want keep looking at me. Out because. Me. I was going to move panik. The because to us anyway. Exert much energy to move out the way should've Flynn back like motherfucking Michael Jackson and smooth criminal, and I would have straddled that white man with his magnum PI vest, and I would have slow grind on that man until he stopped looking at me. I will embarrass you. I love from the best my grandmother who. Charlie. Doc, the Reverend charleena mall, she wouldn't embarrass you Hugh child, you autom- tell you want to get a barest like no, grandma because you the choline. I'm just the Princess. My grandmother will. My grandmother, I got my period. And I was hiding it from everybody because I don't wanna be bothered thing because I play basketball and shit. I won't be bothered with them ellos que Broderick's because my grandmother go to echo back. I wanna see a VA. Oh picture of you playing bass. You bet. Damn hope corn at my mother. Fucking grand. Did she say hoop court? Everybody just saying court. This because. Or? Get back to work. Now. Pat, I get on the exercise with. As a woman came remember what she she liked the wheel. I want to get on the wheel. They will go to echoes. And they would get these big s boxes of stay freeze. I would like damn how many pairs yards? The have the bus would would last you the whole period life cycle of a bit from first day. Defended actually pays. To say. So my grandfather, he was like, yo you gotta go. Atkins. Tell you talk about the women things. And I was like, oh, and my grandmother said we're gonna want here you stay freeze. And I went the other way on here. She went up to the manage it echoes and told him to call me on the speaker. And the man said Yama nica your grandmother wants you to meet her feminine care. That's how petty my grandma was may. She rest in peace. I love that lady. Love that story. Out petty my grandma she clock. You sit. So I wasn't in love with their white man on the train. But I know whitening look me in the I guess we wave past slavery. You wanna look at somebody? You remember back in the day could look into white main. That'd be about three warrants. A hooker. Now, Dan whiting looking. Out for more than five seconds. This you sell an Amway you better. Get the fuck on. So, but I had let me just make an announcement. Now because I see a lot of shit going down. I had sex with two white men. And let me explain something to Europe explains yet, Dan because this keeps coming up Matt's. These two white men a pack of niggers because I always say ninety nine point nine percent of the black male comics eight with black women, not one of them. You can't you got to search damn low right epidemic. I don't believe that it is name name me a black comic you notice with a black woman. My best friend who who is being who. Corwin do. I know. You might not he's infantile Georgia. He's a comic. He's a comet is leave look. Mhm up. Let me look at my call Ogilvy. That's. No, this is a mobile missile Gobi was at the park. He wasn't the puck is Ogle's. Be you know, that's a country. All be. The nasal never sound as crazy as they sound like down south meet, my friend. Eric corn bread in. This is this is a gentrify name. This is a new whose name is. How you spell that Ogle's be as you say it was for them. Corwin, Corwin W? I N C O R W. I N. Oh goes b b I look for it. Just go goes be spill spill it. Oh, S and don't look at your phone because he thought you didn't. It was your friend is. But her friend, but she got into look up. How to spell his last name? Just what I know how to spell pet Brown. Bill yemeni. 'cause those you don't take a stab at it. Take a stand. Why a m m m m m would you gotta spell it? Right, man. United because you type it. Why am am is get out of here? Well, how many? It looks like in sippy. Let's see how we're what. Ian. No. Do you spell? It b works. You you sit down behind a Chinese kid is going to be there. Everybody. Go ahead. Chinese. Here's a list of the agency. What the Chinese are lose lose to the Asian kid Asian. I know but the the grandkids Indian the Indian. I don't know. It's a toss up between Chinese and Indian Indians been. But you know, what that because they name is caca beco- got back. Wow. So close. Clock eleven Hoppy. Raises? I'm telling you what it is. A of and quantum Lama? Why the Euboea raises men look Matt Google my name. I see. Fucking or just confirm you. We'll just confirming. Everybody. Right. Yeah. I'm gonna because name out right now. Right. Right. The dame. Okay. Okay. But I did find out that my name was spelled is spelled incorrectly. Because it's supposed to be in. I e k why? I because it's Yama Naika the way we have it instead of a Necas should be. I e in e we have an e is see that's my problem. That's why I'm having promised. Yes. I see you on the comments place built a right brainer. You forget the e. And get rid of the I at the end. Yes. My love y'all doing it. You Klaus you've got to get rid of the e you've got to put an E in and get rid of that. We'll have spell his last name G. Elliot's B Y OG. Mitchell so far away from this shit. His name look like great Gatsby. Today was wrong with you. Well, I got the. Okay. Okay. He is that his lady right here. Probably. I was at their win. I was there. I was his best person. And that's how you know. He would a black woman because he was at the wedding. So anyway, anyway, I had to nerve the couple of nigga comics had the nerve to challenge me. Oh, oh, oh, you this white, man. You let me white man is I said the difference between you and me is I don't number one think a white man defines who I am number two. I don't seek out a white man because I don't like black men or have an issue with black men. And I don't think that white men are more attractive than black men. I don't have a problem with black men. I just happened to fall on a couple of white Dick's. They were there. They were nice to me. We had a good time you had to justify. I don't I don't want people lumping me in the and I'm not saying every black man. I don't even wanna get it again. But it's like we all know that a lot of the disrespect that comes for black women generate full black men a lot of it. I must say all of it. I'm just saying a lot of it. And now even go back, and I'm looking at old Sanford and son episodes, and I'm like, look how fucked up Sanford, I San for was to Esther, and they grew up they was high school they were childhood friends and he brought her in. But he brought her in the be like it's like every time a black man is encountering a black woman, especially if she's dark skin. It's gotta be all these jokes about how ugly she is unattractive and undesirable. She is even did that shit and Martin when they had a Gina and Pam up in there. Like, I didn't think I don't think wasn't named Tina Campbell. I don't think she looks any better or better. Cam looks weird to me. I mean, no disrespect the plan was. Pam was hot what she had a mean? Bovine it had a body that was clown. Pam was hot as you. Well, we gotta endure an entire series of a black man every time he see a black sister. He got to be ten hut down and talk about what kind of fucking gorilla. She looked like and this and this and that I don't like this shit this shit as wet and a lot of nNcholas Duda. And then they try to hide behind the fact that they go would've been would've. Let me ask you this question. I don't wanna get down this road. None on this real quick. So if teasha Campbell played the best friend and Nisha Arnold play the girlfriend, and he's still to to Nisha Arnold. I mean, Tunisia the other one the lice game. One would would you still be on? It. Would you slow? Would you slew of what what I have to be on it because you don't see it. You know what I'm saying? So is it a my thing is that they only attack them because they're dark scam. It's repetitive in the sand. If fine if that's a show, and we see that kind of back and forth because there are people that have that kind of dynamic in friendships because no matter what they was always there for each other. Even though they was attacking each other. They hated each other. When it came down to the chips, they was there for each other fine. But it can't be we got the jeffersons George is getting on. So so can't staying what's his name? Well, we star skin leaving gentlemen, when you when you have a conversation on based upon facts and figures gonna pay to play whatever they're trying to play devil's advocate today. No, it that's not the point the point. I'm making is name me. How let's see if we can get up five shows where we see a white man attacking a white woman every fucking episode. A specifically about her looks specifically about her whatever type of lack of a woman, she is like you don't see that shit. You don't see you don't see that shit in in Tim, the toolman or whatever at home improvement. You didn't see that shit on Seinfeld? USC that you don't say that shit. You don't see that on friends in Frazier and cheers, aided constantly in front of numbers wife and then now's his wife, though. Right. But it was in. In Fraser, it was that she was absent from the family, and they were an and the woman was they were going through a divorce. So you understand things like that. And you don't see that when we're hearing about that woman and before Frazier got divorced from one of his wife's name was they had a whole love story from chairs. They were in love at one point. I'm not talking about a relationship that with our and then people start talking shit about each other. I'm talking about people who are just friends or in environments, maybe nothing romantic and has got to be big bet grill. You don't bitch your mic, you know? It's like it gets old. And I'm not trying to debate it. I'm not trying to catch all off either. But I'm not trying to debate it because history can back me up. Now, I'm pulling from stuff very quickly because I haven't done any expect to have to give all these things. But if I if we. Sat down and came back next week, and we all did research about how black women and black men interact with each other in television. You will come we all come back, and we'd all agree. The conclusion is way more evidence of black men and black moon being disrespectful to each other on television, undermining one another calling each other as shit and dirty niggers, and this and that then white men attacking white women for no whatever fucking reason. Who was it? A Y manner time. White man was walking, right? Then. So y'all here buzzer to ship. But nobody heard that we heard it. Okay. Okay. Okay. We all we all pause for reason. Let me let me say it is this is example of what I meant about pack 'cause the Minnesota some shit went down. She got that glossy look over face and she disappeared. I'm telling you right now. Episodes will be called don't take Pat to the fight. With you though. Where were you look like he had love what up to the next? You know, when you I came as energy. I don't know what is is coming from energies edgy your energy. Let's put the camera on you for a little bit since Utah. My energy's high. I feel like you did cocaine all night. We. Talk to the people those those people shouldn't hang out with the cocaine people hire people, they should they should not interact together pass was before what you what's going on with me and my life talking about your race. We talked about it a little bit. I think was last week. We know we talked about it on the live that we did all way. I gotta tell them ninety day fiance is back spill less than I I'll start on Thursday doing this week. And we're gonna try to go back to Monday's. So I just want to tell them that real quick. Okay. So tell everybody about because you went tell everybody will happen. I went to Hawaii to run a half marathon proud of you. And why key and it was telling them about the lead up to that. You just sixteen week sixteen weeks of training getting in shape. These guys are monsters. You hear me? Yes. I'm gonna love girls you hear me these monsters. I mean, a says she loves you you to is you. She just wanted me to come to her birthday party. I forgot about you girl. So it was absolutely one of it was so interesting, though, the person that I worked with ran with. I think she didn't want me to run with her. Oh, somebody say good. They just don't because they'll know who you went. I know okay. They said that they get to. She gets you together. Did she give me together? Now it didn't. We didn't. We didn't trying to get that out. That's why I think she didn't want to run with me. We we started out running. I kept turning around is used in different sections behind me. Are you at tell you something if I had been there? I wanna just finish the race yesterday. Yeah. But that's fine. But I would have been with we would have been girls and we've been running together because we're having been trying to have a good time. And I thought that's what it was. Yeah. I feel like it was somebody not wanting me to see her fail, and I don't think you can fail because you you there at the race. So I thought that was kind of disappointing. If that's the case, I might be be off a little bit. But so I ran the whole entire race by myself. But it was so scenic it was so beautiful who I o one who is this because y'all see the no a lot of information about who me. Who me about using the finish five minutes faster? I finished at two fifty eight. So I finished under three hour the reality mar. And the is so funny because I was taking some pictures because there wasn't that many black people there, of course. And then they'll taking these pictures, and I'd like somebody's second the pitcher with these two guys, and they really dark skin was like these got to be the winner. These these got to be the the the high end runners, right? And so I took pictures with him and low and behold one of them ran the won the race. He was a kid and he was from Kenya. And he his time was one hour and five minutes. He did thirteen point two miles in one hour and five minutes that's up heels to that's like I have urging like four minutes a mile when why people go somewhere they take over. 'cause I don't understand how you say. You couldn't find Brown faces in Hawaii. No, no, I'm saying black people. Oh, well that meal. Oh, well that merely friends like us from the other runner. Yeah. Yeah. But like with friends like us, we all finished raise at the same time. The wow, okay. That's what that's what I don't know. I'm not checking for time right out of that. So if you whatever time, you say, you say, I believe you so, but I did ten miles straight, which is my hi my highest time. And then I walked one mile, and then I ran the last last two point two. So we do it again. Absolutely. I'm trying to recruit people that actually want to run with me. I'm I told you I would do it next year. But I don't know about the now we can walk it. Okay. We're gonna have to walk it. We we can run one or two. Well, we're going to walk it like, I talk it like I talking another young. You can run you can run like, I'm sure you not what these these monies so Betty like grits. No. But actually run it helps you knees. I would say. Come in back. Give them a little bit something that she said running helps your fucking. Yeah. Like, I'm a dummy. Eighty now say you it does money disorders from walking lately. Right. This is why you don't go. See a black doctor, Matt because this information. Caved out. It helps your knees. Well, young let laugh is what he was saying. No, I'm saying, you got a little extra weight on them knees met and. I'm not sure what I'm saying is if you reduce a little bit, and then and then we do a little walk in strip in all the the muscles and ligaments around the knees, you won't have knee issues as much knee. You got some you've got some love tech. Mommy, says she'll take, mommy. Look like a hottie tech. Mommy. Yep. Okay. Let me tell you something why watch out for pet pets freak. I'm just gay. I'm not free. I no, you know. No, no, no, no, don't this. Not act. Like, I'm attribute you being a free. Somebody should you. Do I don't let pets mile eleven o one? I'm like because the kids get nervous. I everybody getting there. And burn the house. I gotta make so-and-so's hot who is. How did we get we freeze it fuck out? What we went to McDonald's. And all I wanted was chicken nuggets in sexually harassed everybody behind the counter even said damn I said where was this one time we wanted to get kicking nuggets. We we get chicken advocate. Lord. Did I scorch you to get chicken nuggets? Come on. I haven't eaten at McDonald's nugget out. But you didn't. But it, but I'm not I'm not gonna say you sexually harass people. Like, oh, hey. But PAT's a flirt Pat is a flirt and the charmer. I don't know. I just like talking to people and I'd like to I'm interested in people's lives. The voice over to the opening of your jonky autos. Did they do it murder mystery? No, I love it was why be ended. Did it? You remember the nicknames though? A proud of you. Okay. Thank you. Teamwork. The dream work. Are let's get into topics for the day. Okay. Speaking of health. Oh, yeah. Is everybody dropping dead and are jumping down. Let me just say this right now, I want to say. Father in the name of Jesus we come before you now asking you that we just anybody listened under the sound of our voice law just give them health, and let them little say something, that's informative and. Let us have patients with this topic because we don't want to say anything out of pocket a lot of people have suffered. So and his name, we think you Amen, sorry. Matt had to turn down 'cause you know mess on the other side of the pet. Packing. Barely. Once you start, you know, better now, go to dinner, and then I'll say my grace, and I won't involve her and then she'd be like, Amen. Like. Hey, man. Like, I like, oh, oh, I'll bring you into you. Don't even love the loan. You keep mischaracterizing, my belief. Can I cannot keep going? Yeah. Keep going that energy is off the chain. Wait a minute. United Airlines is coming up cameras all seat Bax amid privacy. Wait a minute. Hold on. We got. We gotta take a break on this real quick. Because I want to know what the hell I didn't know that they was they got a camera crew. What is this now? What is this? United Airlines coming up all the cameras on the back of customers seats amid a backlash about privacy as with many other airlines, some of our be choir girl, some of our premium seats have team entertainment systems that come with camps installed by the manufacture. Oh, I didn't know that. That's a first class problem because they're not putting that in coach. And of course, I wanna see what I think is it's doing because I want to see all the first class. I ain't getting all the lobby. Sometimes I told you I'm hustle when I get somebody to buy my tickets for me, and I just up here by a couple of hundred dollars that first class new you should see. 'cause it's such a nice experience. Really is when you actually when you go through all the question, and he's like the the question that you always get because you are black person in first class. So what are you do where are you going? You just trying to figure out why I'm here. I don't mean fan. The cameras in your car. Now, this cameras everywhere. They said these cameras in hotels, Airbnb, I read a report while back this Airbnb family, they they found discovered cameras where they will say that's why I don't wanna do Airbnb because you going to somebody house, and if they freak and they putting in cameras and stuff like that, you got your clothes off and all this other stuff, and you'd be getting down with niggers. I can't you know what I'm saying. I want anybody in my business like that. This is it said some of the hotels. That's what the reporter for FOX. She she sued the hotel because they had cameras in there in the cameras showed her be naked, and whatever and that was also broadcast on the internet. So she sued them and sued somebody else does he get money? Yeah. She wanted to case. All right. Well, be I want to record me. So I can get a law school off the ground. A supermodel. Drops dead. Drops dead. Video shows moments Brazilian supermodel collapsed and died on the cat walk shocking. Video shows a moment of a Brazilian, supermodel. Collapsing down the catwalk during San Pablo fashion week tail sore razz also known as tales Katha collapsed on Ocsar fashion show on the last day of SP FW on Saturday, April the twenty seventh. Possible connections to anorexia. I saw the video you could see when he turns and is falling over looks like all the life has left his body. You S he's turning. You can see it's almost like he's does he look fan or does it look chooser. What what is? I mean, we talk about it tell because the clothes he had on. But the face definitely, it doesn't necessarily look you may see eight it. But if he was this is a quarter of some commoner that it was reported that he was on a diet of lettuce in water. I mean, you're exerting a lot of energy. You're not really sustaining your body. I could see how that can cause cardiac arrest, and they do a lot of things to keep themselves thin. So yeah. But if you had a history of interaction, then that already weakened his heart. They said fasting was involved as well. People Bryson hospitalized after a heart attack people Bryson suffered a mild heart attack over the weekend. And currently in the hospital. And if you don't know people Brian hone do. A new siding view. No one to stop singing, Matt sorry. Matter. Do this real quick is he Disney is one of the ones that might actually come after us. Well. Now, some of them REBA. Larry King suffered a heart attack. How do you get a heart attack Miari dead? Let me tell you something. I'm sorry. Larry king. And this is why she let. She. Joining on brace. Because like that matters said a prayer to give this is some people just surprised that he's alive, you g people that you just say like Larry King thirty three years ago. Here's a fake you got to take care of your heart. Right. And we all we all at the point where we have to be careful, especially as we get older, heart disease, heart attacks and things like number one. Number two killer used to be the number one killer for men and like number two for women. But it's creeping up becoming number one for women as well. Yeah, we got recipes. We got saints is very important that we remember like, and I say this, and I and I prayed nobody has to go through this you understand. 'cause it's not I don't think it's good. Of course. It can't be a good way to go. And. Would we have to understand this? Get on top of your health. And this is about the state of these men. Are you really looking at me like this? Yeah. Yeah. Does your phrase is phraseology get on top of this? Oh, that's why he was. I thought he was saying because I was thinking about health advice. No, absolutely. Not you can give out the vice. Matt read us some things that can help us with our health our heart health not fucking around with twenty one year old. That would help. What's your heart health? About reading his diet, exercise is probably the most important part of you know, it's the simplest shit. But why can't people? Kick. You do it. Can we put a pause real quick? I just want to say. I just want to know the white move that madness pooled because you as a white person gives them information, and they they're not gonna say just off the top off the time this shit that we need him diet and exercise we're fake you captain obvious the tipsy roll out. I used to give out the information in the who's and all how would you want it? It was like ginger tea is shit. Recipe. There is no secret kids as healthy living. It is really what it comes down to that. But she's the one that she's the one beating both of us at the moment. First thing I came up with ways to prevent heart disease. Number one. Control your blood pressure. There's not that you didn't say that number to keep it cholesterol. And you try glycerin levels under control isn't that diet though. Number three, they at a healthy weight. But if you look at how you look up how to control your blood pressure. Your top answers are exercise. Sodium intake alcohol. Man has learned. Lemme alcohol don't smoke. Talk to our this talk to the people about the smoking. Yeah. That you have difficulty with is anybody out there actually have been a smoker and a have has gotten over it and can give my friend that I love so much some tips. So she can get over her addiction to nicotine. Leave the white meat alone. Here's my cigarettes. Yeah. Dan, doing nobody. No good. Here's what I'm gonna do. Committee. If I'm making a commitment on live. Now, you already doing something right now, you working on your way. But I feel like I want I'm already kinda easing off these cigarettes. Anyway. Let me do this. I got I want you to have a program. I don't want you to just do know willy nilly, she'd just for for TV sake. This is just the ratings right now. I want you to do this for I want to have a program. I want there to be a process involved. I want their every count ability can anybody tell me what their program has been? I my friend quit smoking because I'm I just did a half marathon, I'm going to be here forever. So I just kind of won't have people that I love the lane, then juiston, Putin and everything and he made a lot of years, you do he was eighty some odd. He's a he was he wasn't a harsh looking eighty-five Matt he was actually a good looking eighty-five. So I'm gonna be around. So you'd be by the way ninety six he looked eighty five. And I need you. I need some friends in my life. When I get older, I can still do golden girls shit with. Get me. Oh, I'm definitely, but I would I'm sticking to you now. But I still come back. We are sick age. Oh, what is this feud? Okay. So somebody else's to talk about. I don't want to say somebody. Tally MCS talk about this LA LA can't and Randall Emmett few with fifty cents. I'm sorry about all the short-lived feuding between fifty cent launched into a feud with Vanda pump rule star LA LA can't over the weekend. One the escalated when the rapper threatened Kim's fiance with physical violence should the producer poker player, not pay him back remaining balance of an alleged one million dollar loan. So key playing with me and get your fucking head crack in front of everybody. Wow. Oh. Why he loaning them hunt? One million dollars is what I'm talking about. That's won't come about niggers. He are here loading. I'm never going to be no nigger loan and no white people. No, no, millions of dollars. You better. Go to the Bank and get alone. That's. Weekend. Forgot here. I'm not giving up a million dollars in uncertainty guy and giving you a million pennies of unsecured loan. Not giving a unsecured loan. The my I got some good advice longtime ago is it never give a gives let somebody loans some money that you wouldn't give them the amount. So like if they don't pay you back like, oh, that's fine. Because I'm I if you ask me for that amount of money. I would have gave gave it to you. You know what I'm saying? So anything over the mount that I would probably just be willing to give you you don't loan that out. I have a friend. That owes me close to pay. You got five dollars dollars nine. Dale me close to fifteen thousand dollars. Wow. They owe you a baby you you could they should give you two seconds from going to them with this nonsense. Don't make me crack your head. You know, what it is? I that's why I said what was it? A one time. Series of going back to the world. Yeah. It was it was it was over the course of like a year some some shit was going down. And I was there at thousands of dollars at a time. And did you dig down for? No, no, it wasn't a situation like that. I don't ASA last Nagai was when he was trying to drive beg me for money. I don't I don't let dick control me like that. I'm I'm may be a fool in a lot of regards. But I ain't never gonna little nigga use me for no money. Doesn't mean I have a lavish gifts. Yeah. But I do that. Yeah. But I'm not you not yo dick ain't debt. Good. And you know, I said it because we bringing up the topic. I haven't talked about I haven't talked put it out and talked about it. But sometimes people get into situations. I've been in situations where I'm meeting money, and I've had friends who have helped me out of situations. And I mean, it hasn't been thousands and thousands of dollars. But yeah, maybe close to a thousand dollars or more. Maybe you know, I had was so funny is right before star things started getting pretty good for me and like things go from good to bed. So I wanted to get the thing. I oh to business volun- in the money. They caught me at a good time when I had money to give them like that. But before things are picking up and every and I was on a couple of different little TV things. I needed some money and a friend loamy five thousand dollars, and I was just blessed that I was able to pay them back right away. But I was like why like sometimes when people be able to do shit like that you go. I can't never even if we fall out. I got a fall out what you in a good way. Right. Because when I needed you like five thousand dollars a lot. Yeah. You know, I, you know, I don't I don't want to put this out. I'm gonna part name out there. But somebody a friend of that, we know she gave me two thousand dollars when I need it one time. And I was able to thankfully, I was able to pay her back. But. And I hate asking people for money. Like, it was you know, everybody knew I was homeless. I was in situations that was really bad. So I think that's why I have sympathy for this person. I don't think they're a bad person. That does something they're ever going to be able to pay me back, and I have to come because of their choices or situations because a situation like that's why I'm kind of on the fence sometimes where people are like when they go. Oh, well, if you're man you should do this. You should be having money. You should be doing every. And I'm like sometimes men are not. And we can't keep putting these label that people are able to do certain things. Some people are just not able to you know, I was blessed to come from a certain environment. You know, when we able to come from environments where we're able to get education, and you know, learn how to sort of navigate in this world. And then we saw people look down on people that come from the hood. And they're like, oh, you know, you don't have to say that. I don't get tired of niggers too. But I'm just saying like everybody knows. But at the same time, it's like, I also, you know, don't look at people and be like. You know, how could they get into situation because I understand how people can get into situations. You know, sometimes people are lazy, and they don't do what they supposed to do. And sometimes people just can't get a date situation because it's hard. If you're somebody that doesn't know how to navigate as certain environments and get money in hustle is going to be hard for you. So when some people choose the easy way to well with some people choose crime as a way to hustle, and if people go oh with eight hustlers. Well, they all sometimes it gets desperate right 'cause people waiting is. And they go I like, I'm going to be a Harvard nigger. So I'm going to be out here robbing niggers, and it ain't a good way. It ain't a good way. But it is also when we talk because I'm gonna to say this. I'm gonna get this off my chest real quick because it was just a shooting in the synagogue. Two days ago. And I was going to read read a story about it. And I said one of the things that really gets on my nerves in is how we. And nobody's new to race conversations. He all on renting a raven which reminds would just call race was Julius. Really they need to call as sit rant and rave. And we need to call this shit raise wars because haven't been on Rosh show with him and somebody's white bitches. And he get real California, Katy Perry when the right white bits comes around and I had to remind him wake up. Okay. Because you three or four steps away from being a victim of this ship. But anyway. They talking about the. A woman was was murdered shocked. And my matter of fact, let me go ahead and read this and get 'cause I wanna make a point. That's a huge point across the board. Home a second. And this is what I'm talking about. I Matt we've gotta get an assistant up in here. Like, I don't know. Do we you and I need to talk after this episode or what? I need I need it. We didn't intern. What's up, and I keep as unique as week after week was these interns, and I don't understand Reno be having fifty five thousand interns, which should be getting from toys. R us you need to ask. Marina. And you know, marina tight-lip with her information. I don't want to put that out on the street because marina put a damn cease and desist on my ass. Also shut up to John singleton who's supposed to supposedly on life support on life support from what that what they said. It's not really, I don't I don't know. I don't know. They don't know why he's on Mars. He had a heart attack. My love. Oh, say that. I didn't hear you. Okay. So and power, California. The parents of nineteen year old college students suspected of attacking southern California synagogue said Monday, they are shocked and saddened that quote, unquote. He is now a part of the history of evil that has been perpetuated on Jewish people for centuries. Okay. Quote, Jonty Ernest parents said they raised him and his five siblings and a family, faith and community. That rejected hate our son's actions were informed by people, we do not know and ideas, we do not hold. The parents said in statement, which didn't include their names a gunman on Saturday. This is according to people dot com. A. They said John singleton passed away. But they said it's not that's not the case. Let me finish this up. Let me finish this up real quick. Oh, y'all heard my ringtone. That's quite easy. Confirmed to me can you find out if man if he that, and that's the confirms? Okay. So getting back to the syndergaards for a gunman on Saturday burst into Chad bad of power while near. San Diego on the last day of Passover pain. So a maybe if you were talented that celebrates freedom and opened fire with an assault style. Route killing a woman and wounded ran by two others. He's a son how our son was attracted to such darkness. Terrifying. Mystery to us, though, we accommodate that law enforcement will uncover many details of the path that he took to this. Yvonne, despicable act his parents who are cooperating with investigators say that said this pales in comparison to the grief and anguish our son has caused for so many innocent people and family attorney who issued statements that the parents will not provide a legal defense for their son who will likely be represented by a public defender. They asked for their privacy about five minutes before the attack. The FBI said it received tips about a threatening social media posts the tips to an FBI website and hotline included link to non post, but did not offer specific information about this author or the location but threats. The borough said Monday that employees immediately tried to determine who wrote the post but the shooting occurred before they could establish his identity. One of the tips said the Associated Press that he called the FBI tip line at eleven fifteen Saturday because the post linked to a manifesto that said, the author was responsible for a mosque arson in the city of Encino. Incon- in. Encino cover. No, not Esca Dino last month. He said he was found online that the mouse mosque get attack and happened to fear. The new threat was real the tipster who refused to provide his name became a security concern said the call with FBI lasts about five four five minutes and the shooter shooting happened soon after he described FBI as quick professional said he doesn't know what the bureau could have done that shooting happened around eleven thirty AM doesn't doesn't listen us about one hundred. Congregants worshiping when the gunman killed Laurie K, sixty and wounded the synagogue rabbi and the eight year old and uncle Goldstein who lost his fingers that he was preparing for service and heard a loud sound turned around and saw a young man wearing sunglasses standing in front of him with a rifle. I couldn't see his eyes. I couldn't see his soul said Goldstein. And then go see said miraculously the gun jammed and the moments that followed the rabbi said, he wrapped his bloody hand in a prayer shawl and address congress outside Valentine's as strong in the face of the deadly attack technical community. We are Jewish nation. That will stand tall. We will not let anyone take us down terrorism. Like, this will not take us down Goldstein, call telling the community. Authorities said Ernest has no previous contact with law enforcement and maybe charged with a hate crime. In addition to homicide when he's in maybe charged and later in this week, and he. Has held without ball Bill. Let me just say this let me say this and they saying that John to do pass away. They're definitely saying he was taken off life support. Whether he's passed yet is fair. But why did they said to do other said that so I'm gonna get into that? We're going to wrap up soon because we get into doubt. Fifty one. Now, let me say this. And this is what I mean about talking about about. Because they unearthed a little thing about from Joe Biden where he back when he was, you know, back when he was young white, and he was talking about how he was going to get these thugs up the street and don't matter what they did they come from assistant at this. It don't matter L, let Madison's that they still on your heart. Your kid hurt you, and I and I mean, there's sure it's logical. But it's not as logical based upon the way he's trying to you know. But also we not talking about the way the system is stacked up and set up. Right. So. Our preferences while saying Knicks get on my nerves and Patterson is we can't even go to the buffet in our neighborhood. But I'm getting attitude because. In the way, they inconsistent. They irrational sometimes you don't know what they're going to do. You just gotta you gotta always have your backup with them. But if you ask me where I understand where it came from. I understand the basis of it. And it's and it has little to nothing to do with Nigam selves. You understand what I'm saying? Do you hear me? Okay. So. We reading this report here right from people dot com up to say that again because we don't want to shoot we read this or who came from people dot com. The headline of it is parents say synagogue suspect as part of evil history history of evil. When I went home last night, and I was talking to you. I think that's how it was gonna come over. Whatever originally came up with an soon. Well, soon I look on the news report. And I seen rabbi rabbi goes theme. Talking. I'm watching TV one. And I'm like, I wonder what's going on. And they talk about what what's been Syndergaard shooting. And I'm like where win how long ago was this from some because there's always some shoot nail somewhere. And they said, oh, I heard it said over a couple of days ago and California or the other day actually in California. This is day to I think. And I said, you know, what really and all the community a strong community of faith, and they're holding each other up, and they talking about the the the woman that six year old woman who jumped in front of the took a bullet for him. That's why she's dead bullet. And they talking about how they're going to rebuild. And you know, how they did. They hold him a heads up high in there, and I'm like, sure, okay. Yeah. Who did this? Not that. I don't want to hear the day holding strong and hold their heads up in the day moving forward who did this. Because when you can always tell when a white person didn't this shit 'cause you don't wanna fuck it. Is you always hear they go somewhere, and they don't shot up some movie theater? And then they go right to the victims. They shoot up they go right to the victims. They shoot up weapons should go. And they make the story specifically about the victims. How victims are going to be billed like this is some fairy tale where they rebuild an after. There was like some hurricane some natural disaster that came in that they just didn't have time to prepare for I want to know about the mother fucker that did it. Where's the tear down because you can you can rest assured? Yes. Matt the rescue is a major reason for that that. He'll be down. There are there are studies that show that if you actually show the killer, the more you talk about him, the more likely you're going to appeal to someone else who is deranged you'll get a copycat you'll get someone wanting to get the same glorification for themselves. You folks in the victims, you, you, spread empathy. You actually reach out to the people and say, look these are human beings when you when you focus on the the person who perpetuate. It really does really a negative way to cover a story. And Matt you I love you. We have we've bonded. I mean. I'm even feeling a shirt the shirt you got today. We kind of we can stay next to each other. We're gonna take a picture. I think we look good together. Today. You got your little whatever the salmon pink thing is going on and they've matches well with the muster that I got on. Doesn't. But. Sit. The fuck you talking about. Fashion map, you first of all we've got the at the very least, but you can put mustard salmon together. Great on. Does. No, I'm not gonna argue with you about style, and fashion. Okay. Because let's just remind the audience what you look like because you look like you bought the Yuna bombs some shit. Okay. Okay. So don't don't come from me your damn Citi bike uniform now. Now, I was gonna actually can I know you want. Yes, my love because nobody wants me to talk about what I need to talk. Now. I feel like can I ask you will you let me get to my point after you say this thing that you're saying or should they must think first. And then you said your point we when you finish saying your thing is going to be dark outside. My point is. I agree with Matt that is how it should be done. But that is not the case when it comes to black shooters are the. The the concentration is always on the shooter. How thugs they will? They will pull something from high school. They will pull something out of their history that. Justifies or see missed the idea that this this person is a bad person in some sort. They give you excuses for when white man like this is the evil act, and whatever, but they don't give the responsibility. Like this guy got. Was was the word when they get a rat radicalized here in United States. That's what we should be worried about if he can get re. Radicalized here in United States with coming from a home, supposedly where everything was okeydokey. Then we are all in danger. We are all in danger for every. Malcontent. White young male is can be radicalized in America. And nobody is talking about it. Nobody's doing anything about it. We just call them evil doer. So like, there's only a few of them. And so it won't it won't is not is not problematic. But it's not just the evil. Doer is a regular guy who got radicalized right here in the United States and took his hate field. Self to a to a innocent. Mosque. I mean, a a synagogue and kill people and that an, unfortunately, I agree with you that should be the that's the way years presented that should be the norm for each story focusing on the victim. But that doesn't happen when we talking about black perpetrators. But you know, what? And like a sweet. So sweet and a few others. Speaking about. Nipsy, and we know who killed nipsy Russell and. This song hustle. Right. Let's see wrote some wait. No. Because these black rappers is on a rampage about people saying the wrong shit now. So make sure everybody knew I misspoke because the last thing I need is TI sleep dog calling me. Well, actually, I do need them to call me. But not for that. Yeah. For your new rep. My new rap career Pat doesn't believe him to rapper. And I'm glad you know, what I'm glad I actually let you maybe there's good let people speak on the podcast may be because you did you eloquently said what I was going to say. And what I wanted to address what you met is that you're not even like the thing you say is not even and I don't even believe that you think that what you're saying is wrong and propaganda. But it's propaganda. Right. Because here's what happens. It's this fallacy of like, even when when when people say we go racism pe- when people of color, say racism, still exists. And then you get a pack of white people that will say racism it's over and then they start to list. B's anomalies that they see as consistencies. Right. So they'll go, well, they're black people playing and making millions of dollars in the NFL. And you got you see this black people. And then you go. Yeah. But we're win. Can you can you show? You know, all the rappers is making money in the NFL and sports guys. But other than sports and entertainment, where do you see black money, and wealth, and we're not even recycling that inside our own community because a lot of these brothers go, and they they married women who are not black in the nose women want to take that money back to their own communities or their kids don't associate with being black and they take him out. We don't recycle like for every for every hundred dollars that a black person makes ninety dollars goes out of the black community. Like, we're we're the the weird the worse. I as a group when it comes to not putting money back into our own community. You understand what I'm saying? And we sent it out. And this is why it's hard for and people want us to continue to be that way. That's why you don't see a lot of conscious rappers out there. There are few. That's why you don't see a lot of conscious entertainers out there. That's why certain people are famous and other people are sitting on podcast trying to live they life because it's easy to see a fool peacock around on stage that ain't saying shit when there's people that are talking about shit. They can get people woke. So we understand that. And that's and that's across the board. Really the the manipulation because they also want white people to be manipulated manipulated as well. But. When we when we have when we have things like this. And then somebody makes a point of something that they see. And then it is dismissed with something. That's so sort of arbitrary for lack of a better word right of like, okay. We can just throw this thing to the side. And we just say, oh, it's not that. It's not just because of this, and I agree with it. And that's what I was saying. And I'm glad she said it's hard to keep going into it. They it sounds good. And it makes sense to say that we don't want to promote the person that causes destruction. Because we don't want to have a copycat. And it's and it's good to say that right? But the reality is it's not consistent. So it can't be the truth. Because when if this had been a Muslim man who did this. We would know who what try became front. We know his family. They don't mind putting the face and making the face of evil when it is a face of evil is a person of color. They have no problem with telling everybody that what the problem is. We don't ever want to ascribe evilness to white people. Right. And this is why we have a country that was founded on the bla- the backs of slaves and not just founded like to the degradation death economic disadvantage and social disadvantage of people of color who are still trying to make their way out of a deep hole that they came burried in. And somehow we we never with the history of slavery. That has been brought forth by the white man against an entire race of people enslavement. We we still. Don't look at that person is being evil. We still see white people is like this magical like everybody has to be what I see in and black people that are around me everything about why people so magical and everybody I can't tell you they'll be conversations where oh this girl. I'm with her. You know, she got money once you've got money. Oh, you know, she can't money because she why are you this you got money like when the narrative is at war white people got money and niggers don't have no money. That's why you got white people that get upset when they see Nick even a dime because they told they told a lie. There are plenty of black people doing. Well. That's why you know. And I said I'm blessed because I'm grouping up a middle class family. I didn't grow up in a ghetto. We went to the hood and shit like that my grandparents openly church and established the church to help the community out. But I didn't grow up like that. I grew up the way I grew up. So I didn't see in my community was full of black people that were doing a thousand times better than us. We had lawyers and Dr. The sheriff was black everything all black on black on black people black people doing well. So I didn't grow up with this narrative. But the overall narrative is everything that people call a dark, and this and that is down. Balmy eight worth eight and bubble blah. And then you got white people is up here doing all kinds of manner of evil is she didn't never get called on it because we still like oh well. The same. They're gonna start if slavery is right up there with Gingas Kahn. Right up there. I'd have conversation. This was the middle of last year. Now, I'm going to switch topics is under starts to get. We was having fun. But it still does what people are like all you always wanna have people. Listen to my podcast, right? And it will be the whitest people in the world. I go you really listen to what they like. Yeah. We have joy it. Like what to do? Was always stores with fun. And then it goes down this booking. I hate talking about race all the fucking time. Like it gets on my nerves that was one of the dance party Fook young biggest from why be in. Get my out there live my life. Luma love, but I was talking to a young young white chicken. We was talking. She was something that because like Trump Trump said he said the Jesse small let case. What did he say? He said to Jesse small lead case was the something despicable. The most despicable thing that has happened in American history or some shit, and I'm like nigga. You detained and caves in separated babies from they fucking lactating mothers. You did that. But you think Jesse spot? Let's. Yeah. And then what happens is Nick is also get on with the dumb shit. They go. Yes. Every day. He wanted black history month you done nigga. If you want to say that I don't give a fuck, and he lied or not he the first person of fucking lie in entertainment business, and you want to take on a sheet that this dumb nigga. That's our president said about him disparaging a person of color like he ain't doing shit. I don't give a buck of Jesse small lead lie about kicking trick or treat bags out a little niggers hands and and custody mama's out this the separated newborn babies from the fucking mothers. And that's what I'm talking about the imaging here of white and black. And then when you talk about this shit as a person of color, you get deemed racist. Oh, you only why people fucking Instagram I post all kinds of goofy all day long cats break dancing dogs. Doing the moonwalk. Bitches? Stupid means about sixty. Doug moonwalk? A minute poll some shit about oh this happened. And now, oh, you're race baiting and you're racist. I put up a thousand posts about cats making maxi pads in Thailand and the minute. I put up some shit about a black person being detained by the cops illegally and on some bullshit because some white people don't wanna hear shit about nothing to have nothing to do with nigga suffering. So the minute you say shit, it all look going to stand up, and I get it. I get it. You don't think that I can be a stand up comic and be funny and bring humor and also tell you the fucking truth because you've got a bunch of niggers up on stage that they promote that's doing dumb shit ain't talking about shit. So then when we go on stage, and we're trying to talk about shit and also have fun. It's oh what who does know how to read or write? With material. So I said all this. Fuck police grabbed my cat. I don't give a fuck about constantly Heeren. What the synagogue is doing. I know they got to do they they can't do nothing, but do because they've been attacked, of course, they're going to have to rise or whatever. And even if they weren't like they saying like, oh, they're be stronger. Even if they weren't it's fine. They been attacked. They don't have to show that they got it together. Right. You had somebody will fucking good at your face. A person got killed people. Get killed kids got hurt. Oh, I also I don't think that's I think that's like grief porn to right now. He's like you go into all these mass shootings now. And then you you you focus on the the victims men. And then you you you cannot try Lissette this response from victims. Like, yeah, we're gonna pray. We're gonna move forward. It's okay. You don't it's. Okay. If you take a moment and reflect the June experiencing major trauma right now. That's okay. Let's let's hurry on to the next thing. The next day let them process that that is a major thing you've been in trauma. And so I think that's a that's greed poem right now, we wanna we wanna see the victims like, oh, we strong. We can we can handle anything you've been shot at people you've been around people that had been murdered around. You that is trauma. That is absolute trauma. Let's not get used to that. Let's not normalize that. But that's the thing. And that's and that's the point. As well is like you can't do nothing and spoken about this before would out a conscious. Understanding something may happen as a person of color. I'm by winning two. Like CVS is whatever I get nervous. If I have something in my bag that you know, that may have got from another store because I'm like, I don't want it to ding. And it's going to stop me and ask me questions, and I always reference when I was done here Dwayne Reed. And they was having a problem. I guess with the system they they think kept buzzing and buzzing buzzing people come in and out, whatever. And so I I saw white woman. Go out black woman win a white woman. I in a black woman, and the buzz on the white woman in the black woman goes out, and then the buzzer, and the and the white woman just kept walking she'll does and a black lady turns around, and she's like because we so condition like we got to always be checking to make sure that we in line, and they don't expect him to be online a lot. They can do whatever they want. So the only way we're going to stop this problem of white guys getting up they own ask and going somewhere, and murdering a pack of people because they haven't a fucking bad day or whatever the fuck they think because again, and they. Can't be said enough. Like, Chris rock said if you give y'all have y'all think we losing their if y'all loser who the fuck winning because this should set up for you niggers. So if you were going into synagogues and mosques feeling threatening you going to churches with black people are welcoming your crazy looking at because black people we love to do that you retarded looking white boys. We don't brought into fucking churches and shit and serving them chicken wings and shit. Oh, his little boy here little slow. We love that rapid a little white boy up as some swaddled Colin making him a damn manger exhibit. They love this shit. Black people we bring white people in all shit. We don't when I I'm telling you think of abuse of white woman had a little it's only kids and she had a little black foster kid in the black guy was screaming on her because she had a little black girl out there with no clothes on in the cold water rest of these kids had clothes on. And I'm like this. And they just did a case about this white this guy white couple that day going to jail for molesting not today. Damn kids. And then another then the two women the lesbian couple of that. Ran the kids off the road and committed suicide and all this shit when white people this is why we have concerned when we say white people are e. A doubting black children. I get concerned because I'm like number one. Are you teaching you about their culture? Number two. Are you just treating them like they second class citizens because I could tell you for the most part, and I have to say that it's not no cases of maybe black people abusing white kids for the most part, especially in my church. We was always someone little white cables in foster care because Baltimore County is gully with black and white all of them doing everybody black and white. He's doing bad in Baltimore County and Baltimore City, and it was always some little white kid some start lows white kid they bring in old company Johnny Brigham and we make that nigga black. He was family. The win. It all the conversation has to be if you wanna stop these kids from going in and shooting, and do it a fuck they think they deserve to do that have to start killing them when they get them. Why is it up in the air that they don't know if that was the guy in that they know that's the guy kill them. Shoot them. Do the same thing. You would do to a black guy. If he was there you kill him you killing black people at at when you pull us over because you think we got something I hand and wanting to be in the cell phone, you pull him black people over for broken tail lights and killing them, you pull you kill it shoot. And we say in black people being shot in the back as they walk away a runaway. Let me ask you this though. Because I didn't read the story. So they don't know is that what they said, they did, you know, if not it's always is a maybe it's always, well, he's a suspect. He met the list shoe whether or not we when they talk about. The because it's sorta. I Don I never watched rosewood. It was too. It was too tough for me. I didn't want to get into it. But they said the thing with rosewood is that started off of white woman say that a black man raped her. And then they went in and they destroyed an entire town based off of a white woman of the black man raped. Her did not even concern themselves. We're trying to figure out what black man if true. In fact, that was and I'm not saying that I want women to go. All here, we go to not believe in women. I'm just saying there's been a history, and we have seen a history, and it has been listed of white women saying black men have done shit to them. And then come to find out it wasn't. And that the biggest case of that was immaterial. Yeah. But. Rosewood thing. It was also a it was a era. It was a the context of that. Is there were? Rosewood was a very financially well off location and the adjacent white. Community were building all these you know, hostilities toward this does black community that was growing. It was thriving the did need them. And so that that was a pretext to the all these, you know, all all there. Jealousies that they had been created created by these two cities are there were next to each other, and it was just a pretext to destroy the whole thing because they were so jealous of this. This town that didn't need them black town that didn't need them. I have said this. I've said this again, and and we got to wrap up we gotta rep appear, and that was a John singleton movie, and John is deceased. Yeah. But you can read the history. You don't have to watch the movie I think they're trying to connect that we were talking about John singleton. Right. I got and. Okay. Because the way you responded almost like you didn't get it. No, no. I'm saying because you said you were you didn't wanna watch the movie because it was a lot to watch. And I was saying for people that don't want to cause. Sometimes I'm like that about news. I read the new read my news than watch it because it's sometimes it's too harsh to listen to. But that's what I was saying the reason why I try not to get too many batteries in my back about certain things is because I'm very awoke. I think if I wasn't it's not that. I'm trying to like not have. I don't I don't need anything this going to get me roundup. Right. Yeah. And saying about the news it triggers me. So I rather prefer to read it watch it, right? Okay. So here's the thing. Okay. Sandra? Oh, man. Here's a done. I've said this thousand times our biggest problem here is economic one. Which is why we were on the right path when we were doing the ninety nine percent. But again, even in that there was dissension because of racists. We have a class issue in America and across the world and class snows. No bounds. When it comes to race. It doesn't matter. It does not matter. It's about money and one of the ways that wealthy people have been able to which have we mostly see is being white or other not people black or any darker complexion. People is that we continue to fight every day amongst the lines of racism and race. And the worst position you could be in as a person of color is to be around a white person that don't have shit, and you have shit because they're not going to want you to have shit more than them. And that's the fact. Facts so people of color, specifically black people have been policed by Paul whites for the longest this is why you whenever black person's in a nice car. They getting pulled over whenever they got. And they they shop at a nice area, and they doing stuff it's like, it's always his idea of nigga who are you? Because a lot of these people are people who can't even Ford and they like, I'm white. Why why is this nigger somewhere where I'm not? So until we start to eradicate the problem of race, which is going to be hard because racism is makes money racism makes money racism is the reason why white people are running in droves being areas without black people there racism is why some black people are moving away from their own people to be into a neighborhood that gets them away from certain black people racism is what gets our prison system. Dems to bring in black people who work and fund all kinds of private businesses and hit with cheap to non-paid labor. Racism moves the Dow forward because racism makes money and until racism does not make money racism will exist. So I've said this a thousand times, and I'll say it again, I just wanted to go to target. Get me some yarn on a regular basis and a hot pocket. No, let it be silent. Because I'm speaking to. Two people. Pat, legallais she just on Amazon prime and at just saw that. It kinda hit home. Now that boys boys in the hood director. John singleton died. So is that what you've found out? No. I mean, I'm talking about. He took he took. He said he took him off last support. So they did now. So I read a report that the the daughter said he wasn't on. Yeah. Well, they're they're reporting now. So he must be passed that blossom got buses family. Well. Trance singleton. Gave us a lot of great content and. There are some some some things I think obviously everybody has some type of history, but I. I mean, I don't get into the negative. We're going to talk about the positive. So he is he was a very gifted filmmaker very gifted storyteller. Fifty one years old. Everybody got liberty lives. That is always the thing about death is a reminder to do what we supposed to do here on earth to our fullest extent to the fullest glory without. Impeachment Hartron impede e body else's. Progress? Effect. We supposed to help people along our journey. So that's also the takeaway from any. Bless everybody on his podcast and take care of yourselves. You cigarettes in half. Five cigarettes left. Let's get better. What I have. Let's take this seriously. 'cause yeah, fifty one is too young to be dying. Get is. All right. Well, I hate to end on a somber note, we started off very well that we got very race fills every episode. Try. Don't I met? Mass. Like, I don't think you really hard. Come on. Actually starts up on a higher note. Got into fight on the train before starts a weird place. Our fight with on the train is either anti whiter. Or just crazy homeless homeless. I am equal opportunity. I don't like many you want to be honest. I'm a part of the mirror. Yeah. You need your own car. Your special. God bless Pat. Thank you so much for coming in pets been there with me through a lot. And hopefully, we get pet to come back. More often share some time with us how brilliance and I'm gonna take. Oh, really? It's you can't say that were no more. You've you lost the definition of that word last night. I didn't know I didn't give it. Okay. So now, I'm not gonna say, but me in Yemen egos, watching a comedy special, which we really don't do that much. But you know, you're talking about comedians watching comic. So you know, you watching it at a higher level. And so somebody remarked at the. The comic that we're watching the show was supposed to be brilliant. And so Yama nica is not allowed to use the word brilliant anymore. It was it was so far from bro. Slow. It wasn't no. No. All right. Say goodbye, Pat. Hey, thank you million show and everybody that supports the show continued to do this is she doing God's work, even though she says a lot of Bs and f words, but she's doing she does she is doing the Lord's work, and that heart is pure got anything you want to tell us. Yeah. Check out my website. I am kitchen up on. Doing my radio show. Documentary show. So our let you know when that is coming back out I needed to do some restructuring. So I would have more consistency. So I'm working with that. But there's a lot of good things happen. I'm hoping I have some really good news is share with you in gimme about four weeks. So I can be confirmed and pregnant. Even if I was that would not be good news. Wouldn't be good was still baby. I will give you that baby. You're gonna have to take their baby you can had his baby. You can have a whole uterus. I'll I'll pack it up for you have wrapped up the youth for you. But so yeah, I'll hold out for that. But thank you. And like, I said, I love my girl. Good. See you met. Say goodnight. Matt. Always around, Pat. You guys talk more often. The show is like we're like we uncomfortable lovers like we don't want to know. All right. Good. Bye guys.

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Slate Money: Food: Alternative Meat

Slate Money

28:17 min | 5 months ago

Slate Money: Food: Alternative Meat

"Hello and welcome to sleep money food and welcome Tad friend. You are here to talk to us about plant based meets as anyone who has been following the beyond meat share price knows. This is something which a lot of people are a lot about an a making a lot of money on. Who are you and how do you know about this? A staff writer at the New Yorker and I know Baticaloa spent about six months writing about the world of plant-based meats and focusing particularly on the CEO and founder impossible foods Pat Brown is a former Stanford. University biochemist started the company with the idea that if successful in ridgely making plant based Burger. And they could grow at that eventually. They were really really fast. They could get rid of all animal food products across the globe by twenty thirty five. It's a huge ambition. Which we we're GonNa talk about Pat Brown's ambitions. We're GONNA talk about the beyond meat share price. We're going to talk about. Gruff Fed vessels green fed beef. We're going to talk a little bit about your friend in mind. Mr Dan Bubba. And we're GONNA talk about how to cook an impossible. Burger and how it differs. Perhaps from cooking and regular Vega all that coming up on slate money food so tad. How often do you eat fake meat? That's one of those questions. That immediately begs the question of whether the question is correct. The people who make what they call plant based meat would object strenuously today. It's fake me but putting that aside for the moment Actually when I started reporting about the world applying base meets in celebrates meets aid it never and now I find myself eating it a lot just because every time I eat a cow based Burger I can't help but think of clouds of methane going up into the atmosphere which is not very savory prospect just the other weekend my daughter who's just declared that she's a vegetarian demanded in impossible burgers cooking boasts tau and impossible burgers at the same time in the oven. Had Sort of interesting weird thing of trying to do to eat them side by side as a taste test and which had done in a while and unfortunately the cowboys are still tastes a little bit better and also the Basel Burger My wife is the chef of the family. I'm pretty good with bridge but like it's very easy to go from having it be looked still sort of paint and then suddenly it's like crispy. It's very hard to get exactly medium rare at least in my attempts but it's a long winded answer but I'm not. I'm not eating many burgers at all these days and then when I do I'm sort of thinking. Gee It should probably be a plant based on. Would you say the the main use case for plant-based meets is as a substitute right? Now it is beyond meats and impossible foods started in North America. Which are they're they're starting there and then branching out into the world even though they know that with America only consumes about twelve percent of the world's meet Place to start and in North America sixty percent of beef is ground so it makes sense to start with the Burger That's the thing where you're going to. If you can convince consumers to change you try to lead in to a lot of the market right away so this is something. I didn't know Being someone who has never actually cooked an impossible burger at home. I mean I like you. Maybe even less than you're not much of a better person to begin with and when I do eat them. It's only lamb burgers. You'll saying that impossible burgers are similar to beefburgers in the done. This increases over the time that you cook it and so you can have like a less. Well done normal. Well-done impossible beg and that affects the taste rather than just the crispiness the whole idea. One Pat Brown. The CEO and founder impossible started the company. He was thinking like in order. We are not convincing people to give up meat through arguments about animal welfare. Or you've been about the planet we have to do by basically making a better product way to make a better product is way to get there. You have to make a similar product. That's a taste like meat in. It has to cook like me. It recapitulates the whole sort of savory sensation of eating meat and their onepointoh product was not that great. I mean it was fine. But they're two point. Oh if you do it right and a metric quite done it right and it's helps if you're a chef kind of experimenting a lot but the idea that actually that you will release uses it will tend to rise it will. Carmeli is The greatest ribs saver. You Mommy as you cook whereas if you just take a traditional Vegetarian Burger that you would find in the freezer case. Ten years ago it basically just kind of heats up and sort of Wiltz. I mean it doesn't doesn't chemically transform. It just sort of warmed up as you heated but this actually chemically transforms in the main thing is a molecule called team but the impossible burger. That is the thing that's in our bloodstream. That makes blood red And also his in cows bloodstreams and that is it sort of they think of as the catalyst for a lot of these sort of meaty chemical transformations a. We should jump in hits. Note that when people talk about that beggars being bloody. That's not actually blood that read stuff that comes out of a beggar. It's not it's actually a multi find in blood. I'm but in this case happens to be made from Genetically Modified Yeast Fifty Thousand Gallon tanks The for sort of weirdly pink colored sort of like a dairy queen type of soft serve. Almost Uses traditionally white. But because him is pink turn to uncover is very important in foods and in beggars. The other question I have for you just because it's a genuine question I haven't cooked. Bubba is the my my general technique of cooking Doug as a throw a bunch of ground laminate skillet and then it cooks in its own fat. As it warms the FAT MELTS. Net creates the the caramelized -ation because you wind up basically frying dilan. Boga in lamb fat do impossible burgers and Beyond Vegas. Did they have fat in sort of leaks out and then cook them they? They have to recreate it. Because it's not animal fat but they they both have Able to sort of coconut oil to marble eyes and that sort of marble texture round beef has also just create a sense. It is a fat but a different kind of fat. So there's not enough of a chemist to exactly no doubt explain the seven temples steps along the way but my general sense is that yes. It's a SIMILAC arm of that hand. To the extent you find it pleasing is just about your taste and also your sense of moral outrage and I think the higher the moral outrage the lower the bar taste and your new offensive outrages is quasi Maryland. You're not caring about the cows themselves so much is your caring about the environment and the carbon emissions. Well morality can only apply to cows and not welfare entire plant. That's very interesting. Maybe the only thing about you're about like the the big morality. I like that question. A little better I actually grew up on a dairy farm. So you care about cows but I would say my sense of of more. Outrage was heightened during the reporting of the peace in a way I mean I almost always start peace without having much of an idea of where I'm GonNA end up because I think if you know that you end up finding your way there are no matter what and I didn't really think much of Was Interesting topic but I found as reported that my sense of the injury to the planet. That was totally unaware. From the agricultural sector in particular from growing animals for meat was so much greater than I had thought remedies in so many directions that even setting aside the question of animal welfare and whether we should be using animals for me the consequences of using them for me to be bad for all of us using the any one of your daughter is that like was that the a primary reason why she became a vegetarian. Now he's been agitating for a while and I think finally she was just like Through down in like I'm a vegetarian And I was sort of secretly thinking will do for you. That's great that you're determine your life on my wife. Who's a chef in who runs a food website? was outraged and the thing was This is separate from the topic. Maybe related is that after a few weeks of being a vegetarian She started to miss some of the things that we liked about eating meat. Many of us. So he's now what she calls a big Joe Pesci -Tarian People Bacon and fish foods says there she can get the tastes in the proteins that she was missing Without feeling what? She's eating kind of Yucky steak. I do believe that the every vegetarian should have let one product they can cheat with in Spain. Of course it's hem on why I think it's hard to just totally a cold. Turkey itself as a phrase suggests as Turkey's about The interesting thing is about the to me one of the things about so many of the people who started either plant based companies or cell based companies in which you Subways different approach to the same problem. Where you basically trying to recapitulate the growth of meat in a lab starting with an animal cell and then multiplying it billions of times to create a burger or chicken nugget or steak eventually innocent. Very embryonic industry people started. A lot of these companies are vegans and they've they've realized that actually the way like Pat Brown Vegan Ethan Brown and started beyond burgers beyond meets is a Vegan. Josh Chetrit started just which makes the kind of man as in egg substitutes is trying to get into cell based meat is a Vegan and they all realize that people are not receptive to people meaning like the vast swath of population is not receptive to that message. Because it's again about Animal Welfare. They are more receptive to ideas of taste. Just sort of saving the planet that seems to be a better way to go in terms of lowering people's anxieties in hackles. About what reading. We had done Bubba on this show and he was very very adamant that he is by no means a vegetarian but that he very much believes in having scented food. And you know just having occasional proteins from here and there as and when is this kind of support in a supporting role and I kind of get the same message of different flavor? I guess from the kind of people. You're talking to in the in the alternative meat industry. That's basically saying that. The effect on the planet is much bigger if a lot of people eat less meat than if minority of people eat NOMI I think most of the sort of thoughtful responsible people are simply trying to kind of essentially to take a a phrase from the code. Industry flattened the curve and try to prevent China and India and very fast growing countries that have traditionally eating less meat from adopting. That is. It's what they call the twenty fifty problem that by the year. Twenty fifty plant which now has seven point. Eight billion people will have ten billion people if growth continues to grow in a strong four hundred times in China since nineteen sixty one continues to grow. At that rate. Basically there will be no forest left. There will be greenhouse gases everywhere. So they're trying to responsibly. Sort of tapered off the interesting thing about Pat Brown started. Impossible is he is like no tapering. We are going to replace all animal food fish chicken pork Turkey. Everything by twenty thirty five and everyone even his own board members. Even people with his company in most devoted disciples. Know when I spoke to You. Thanks. That's that's feasible. It's fifteen years away right now. Plant based clued is still way less than one percent of the world's intake and pat actually told me that he still thinks he actually thinks he can do a before twenty thirty five he just thought it sounded so crazy. Had to sort of push it back a couple of years. What what's the future in China if you say? China is the big one with this massively growing middle-class with much more disposable income to be buying meat and presumably on some level. It's a look easy to show people off. Wei The involves less meeting in the future is to try and get them to reverse habits of many decades of eating meat every day. Exactly that's that's exactly right and that's why These companies are all trying to as quickly as possible leap from America to places like China and India In China there's an interesting complicated set of factors that go into the calculus Worried about some of them in the peace. One factor is at famously. You know China has often hijacked intellectual property. So there's a concern about you. Take your process in there. You have a you have a relationship with a company where you're coming together and suddenly they just take it from you and then go from there on make. That's actually fine with Pat Brown. He's like I don't care almost like if we make a profit there. I just wanted to get the idea. Introduce their It's not so fine was his shareholders. So there's a little bit of attention there One of major arguments really interesting given what's happening now he's trying to. He's trying to argue to the central government. This is actually a national security issue for you. You import a lot of your meat. You'RE DEPENDENT ON FOREIGN SUPPLY. And if you can make plenty meet in that satisfies your nations hunger for made no longer depending on that also is another risk points which he had enough you whether or not. He's making good China but he certainly made to me was that so many pandemics star potential started from avian and swine flu's from meat markets. Like the one that led to the corner virus if you could you know late if he's right and if he's successful in somehow miraculously managed to rid the world of Meat Markets for twenty thirty five? There wouldn't be this. You know zoonotic transmission chain from bats monkeys through domestic meat animals to us. I feel like on some level if we are told a vegetarian. Diet will prevent a global pandemic lake. This one having just lived through as we're living through this one. That is an incredibly powerful argument to to put two people at least right now before they forget how bad it is right now. It seems like I haven't actually seen anyone make it. I'm I'm defer to PAT. Who if he chose to make it could make it much better than me but I totally agree with you that it would be a powerful one running for a second two point? You're making that Dan Barber earlier. You know again. It's a friend of mine and we agreed to talk around a central issue of around plant-based meets which it is yes. He's totally you know. He's he's obviously Mr farm-to-table. He's totally about locally. Sourced plants enemy the thing that I found that he he probably would disagree with this but that was interesting and surprising to me. Was that one naturally thinks of grass fed beef somehow more organic in lovely in good in some vague glow away and it turns out that actually because grass-fed beef is not finished for the last four to six months of his life. I'm grain feedlots. It grows much more slowly and therefore produces much more methane and also grasses harder to digest in there for produce more methane than greenest so the grain. Which is it's yes in American factory system. Yes it's unsavory certain sense Yes it sort of mechanized an awful in house or not as happy but it actually is better for the planet in a weird way then Assuming that the total number of cows you raising stays constant which I think is probably not a fair assumption. You can't move from grain. Beef raising grass-fed beef racing and keep on raising the same number of cows that you have to raise more cows. Yeah I'm one of the things that you just less capacity that you you know if you if you converted all of. Us beef industry to grass fed. The total capacity of the industry would go down a lot and the price would go up while not clear on how you're using the word capacity the total number of cows you would need to. Biz amount of meat would call up or else you'd have to have them eating more food for longer. I guess what I'm saying. That you total amount of like Shia acreage. The number that you would need would be so enormous to keep the covering volumes The there will be no physical way to produce that much level. Yes right now. Five percent or so of cows in North America our grass fed so be multiple net by twenty essentially in In terms of the two hundred percent of grass fed and that would mean a lot more munching grass And a lot more So and there are theories that counter. This and there's a you know sort of the idea Genitive grazing that. If you raise very carefully and you have the cattle marching in as a kind of very carefully confined herden treading down. The grass in certain ways generates scientists on that seems at best uncertain but there are definitely people who believe in the idea of a virtuous cycle of the cattle that tramp down the grass in the manure that restores the grass and so forth. It's all one happy circle of life in a kind of Disney way but weirdly seems like the actual way for the media industry. If you believe in the media industry to try to tamp down the curve would beat apply American scientific methods Rodley across the globe in factory farms. And if we don't want that then we go back to the client base meets the only comeback. Something you're saying about like China's stealing Ip. The cloud base meets the really catching the popular imagination. Right now beyond me. Impossible beggars made by private for profit companies with patents and Chad prices if the future is plum based meets is the future all also by necessity. One where you know. A large chunk of the protein we ingest is is basically a patented corporate for profit thing where we're sending money to a big global company. Yes yes yes in the sense that the way America figured out how to build a better mousetrap tends to be privately rather than the government building straps and the government has shown no interest whatsoever in building a better burger better for the planet. I'm in fact quite the opposite. You could argue that. The power of the media industry and has lobbyists has had significant influence. Let's put it that way on the. Usda so the the laws that have been passed unless few years off the topic perhaps but in states that prevent Impossible and beyond from even describing their product. Burger is a nomenclature laws of this sort of legislative thinking trying convince customers that these things are not even quote unquote pitcher terrain burgers. You can't call in Arkansas. You can't call impossible a vegetarian. Burger would've have to call it. I don't even know something else like Probably fake meat. Or you know something. That sort of sounds unappetizing. But getting back to your earlier question Pat Brown because he is he's a missionary and Zealot Evangelist his plan is within a few years and again his shareholders might hem. And how about this? But his plan is to not in China at least at the beginning but eventually across the globe including China Eve. Away the formula to to all these different Meat but also pork sausage and chicken as he rolls those out to other companies and say go have added improve this tweak and as soon as you start to make more than a million dollars from your company you know give us some royalties on it but the ideas you thinking. That's that's the way we can grow really fast and we won't own the entire market. We won't be this. Big Hated Mega Corp will be the friendly nurturing. You know Almost QUASI-GOVERNMENTAL INSTITUTION. That's trying to build up companies around the globe. Are you hopeful on that front? You think this this vision might come to post. Well it's one of those classic card head things where I would like him to be correct in how he sees the world working and in the success of his products. I think it would be good for all of us and I also in some kind of medicine. I think it's great when a scientist using an actual science can develop products. That seems to improve things and I think that has sort of ramified effect on our belief in science. I would say my head sort of thinks it's G it's still you're still ten started in two thousand eleven and it took them a while to get a product to market in two thousand sixteen Five years after getting their product to market all plant based foods inmates. You're still less than one percent of the market and he's done the calculation on a Napkin for me More committing electric her but not much which is a they have to grow double production every year to get there to take over the entire meat supply for the next fifteen years which is growing more than thirty thousand. Fold which is huge and possible. So I kind of think the only way to do that. Probably by outsourcing to other companies in having there be part of that growth and I also think he is. He doesn't really care about money doesn't care about world domination. He really wants this idea to work for the good of all so I believe is hardest totally in the right place. And then the question is whether they can execute on division on some level by it's becoming the sort of dominant operating system for Post. Meet well you become a little bit like Microsoft. You just sort of install your windows software on every computer that sold and take some small slice of the price of that computer and then you can make money that way if you if you kind of instill the impossible operating system in a bunch of food factories around the planet and they will pay you a little license for that software even though it's not really software That could be a huge business. Known some level. Shareholders would love to have a smaller slice or something global than one hundred percent of something which isn't really getting traction out yet. I think he can make that argument. And and he will make that argument ends up. It's going to be not just good for the world but it's also good for the bottom line. The tricky thing is to get back to the China point is if they if and when they get in there in scale. I was talking to the vice president in charge of kind of heading up news saying we won't give them formula but will do the same thing that coca-cola does will send in the buckets you know and then maybe they can reengineer it. But we won't even be sending in the buckets with the most. Recent update upgrade will be sending in like the version from a couple of years back because they are dislike a little still worried that for purely capitalist reasons at the moment as growing as they keep adding to raise money they just raise another five hundred million dollars if now raised one point three billion dollars. There's no need to pay back their investors. They can't just throw it open and say well. Here's a formula. Glad final question Bound the beyond meat share price. Which is one of these stocks. A bit late. Zoom Tesla Virgin Galactic just kind of goes parabolic. His crazy volatile and people made a lot of money on it and presumably load of money on it to do you understand the sort of volatility that. I mean I think what the market is telling us is that no one has a clue whether these things are going to be successful or not in. The range of outcomes is so enormous that you can tweak. Your assumption is just a little bit in the value of the company. Whipsawed all over the place. It's exactly what you said. I think it's the plant based meets him. North America alone sales grew eighteen percent just in grocery stores. An impossible joined beyond in grocery stores only in September so this year it'll be allowed more particularly because people getting their food from grocery stores now and not from restaurants right at the moment as much across America so you can see that growth and you can thank you know you can look back directory and think wow and then you could also look at the other thing. Which is you look at me. In major still traditionally still ninety nine point five percent of the global market and they're very entrenched those people. You don't know what they're doing and it eventually just come along and kind of do some crappy version of it which they started to do what he started to making stalled incognito his way to worst all time name for what is Incognito. I need to the Incognito. Is a meat substitute made by And then you know like and clearly they I think Nestle has made the amazing murder and be incredible. Burger may begin his name South Trying to confuse people about what the impossible. What the incredible with the amazing good for the broader. It is often sort of these water. Yes in in a general sense. Except if you're disappointed by the knockoffs and a lot of the knockoffs are weird kind of like mixtures of chicken and pea protein or disorder kind of sectarian mashups that satisfy no one just dissatisfy everyone to your earlier original question about beyond. Burger of your investing in your investing in the story. You're investing in the beliefs. Can eventually this whole way of engaging with animals and plants is going to change well storyteller? I suppose you've you've done your part for the beyond meat chevrolets. Although it was not the intent of your piece I bought a lot break before I got on the phone with you. And then okay you can sell it three days after this goes comes out greg flip series of complex trades. They can pay one right after the PODCAST TED friend. Thank you so much for coming on. There's been a pleasure to have you. Thanks so much for having me.

Ethan Brown China Burger Pat Brown America Mr Dan Bubba Animal Welfare North America Turkey China Basel Burger CEO scientist founder Tad ridgely Wiltz cowboys
367. The Future of Meat (Rebroadcast)

Freakonomics

56:35 min | 1 year ago

367. The Future of Meat (Rebroadcast)

"Josh their podcast listeners the episode. You're about to hear the future of meat was first published in february and quickly became one of our most downloaded episodes ever. Why is it because so many of you love to eat meat. Maybe or is it because so many of you don't love to eat meat. Also maybe let me explain. There is a movement happening right now a really large movement around meatless meat and meat lake food food that does not come from living animals. The california company beyond me had one of the hottest i._p._o.'s in recent memory and it's barely slowed down their market cricket calf. Now is over nine billion dollars impossible foods. The company you'll hear about in today's episode also appears to be headed for an i._p._o. And perhaps perhaps a similar success. Is it possible that fifty years from now or even twenty or even ten years most of the meat we eat won't come from animals animals. Let's check in then but for now here's our best attempt at describing the future of me <music>. Let's begin with a few basic facts fact number one a lot of people all over the world really like to eat meat especially beef pork doc chicken if you add all together. We're actually higher than we've been in recent history. Let's jason lusk. I'm a professor and head of the agricultural economics department at purdue university. I studied what we eat and why we eat it and then in terms of overall meat consumption per capita in the u._s. How do we rank worldwide worldwide. We're we're the king meters so compared to almost any other country in the world. We eat more meat per capita. Even brazil argentina. Yes yes and part of that. Difference is income-based so if you took argentina brazil and adjusted for income they would probably be consuming more than us but we happen to be richer so we eat a little more. The average american consumes roughly two hundred pounds of meat a year. That's an average so let's say your meat eater and someone in your family is vegetarian. Can you might be putting away four hundred pounds a year but in america at least there aren't that many vegetarians. I probably have the largest data set of <hes> vegetarians of any other researcher that i know really why i've been doing a survey of u._s. Food consumers every month for about five years and one of the questions i ask are you uh-huh vegan or vegetarian so over five years time and about a thousand people a month. I've got about sixty thousand observations. Wow and is this a nationwide in wide data survey. It is <hes> representative in terms of age income education. I'd say on average you're looking at about three to five percent of people will say yes to that question that say there's a very slight uptick over the last five years so again a lot of meeting in america what are some other countries that consume a lot of meat australia and new zealand israel canada russia most european countries and increasingly china one of the things we we know is that when consumers get a little more income in their pocket one of the first things they do want to add high value proteins to their diets. What is the relationship generally between g._d._p. Meat meat consumption positive <hes> although sort of diminishing returns so as you get to really high income levels it might even tell off a little bit but certainly at the lower end of that spectrum as a country grows in adds more g._d._p. Start to see some pretty rapid increases in meat consumption. Meat consumption is of course driven by social and religious factors as well by health concerns and animal welfare. Not everyone agrees that humans should be eating animals at all that said we should probably assume that the demand for me will continue to rise as more of the world keeps getting richer. How's the supply side doing with. This increased demand quite well. The meat industry is massive and complicated and often heavily subsidized but long story short if you go by the availability of meat and especially what consumers pay this is an economic success story so prices of almost oliver meat products have declined pretty considerably over the last sixty to one hundred years and and the reason is that we have become so much more productive at at producing meat if you look at most of the statistics like they might have port produced per south and we'd take out a lot of the seasonal variation that we used just to see these animals have been pride indoors and and you look at at poultry production and broiler production the amount of meat that's produced per broiler has risen dramatically almost doubled say over the last fifty to one hundred years while also consuming slightly less feed. That's due largely to selective elective reading and other technologies same goes for beef production. We get a lot more meat per animal for example on a smaller amount of land and as you can imagine people concerned with animal welfare may not celebrate these efficiency improvements and then there's the argument that that despite these efficiency improvements turning animals into food is wildly inefficient because the cow didn't evolve to be meat. That's the thing that's that's pat brown. Use a longtime stanford biomedical researcher who's done groundbreaking work in genetics. The cow evolved to be a cow and make more cows and not to be eaten by humans and it's not very good at making me meaning it takes an enormous amount of food and water and other resources to turn a a cow or a pig into dinner much more than plant based foods and is pat brown sees it that is not even the worst of it the most environmentally destructive technology on earth using animals in food production. Nothing else even comes close. Not everyone agrees that meat production is the environment's biggest enemy what's not in dispute is that global demand for me is high and rising and that the production of meat is resource intensive and at the very least environmental challenge with implications for climate climate change pat brown thinks he has a solution to these problems. You started a company. The company whose mission is to completely replace vice animals as a food production technology by twenty thirty five the meat industry as you can. Imagine has other ideas we want to keep the term meet and to what is traditionally harvested and raised <hes> in the traditional manner today on freakonomics radio everything. You always wanted to know about me about meatless. Let's meet and where meat meets future mm-hmm from from stitcher and w productions. This is freakonomics radio. The podcast explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host stephen duffner. What determines which food food you put in your mouth every day. There are plainly a lot of factors personal preference tradition geography on and on so take something like <unk> horse consumption that it's almost unheard of to even think about consuming a horse in the united states jason lusk again the <unk> agricultural economist whereas you go to belgium or france it would be a commonly consumed dish but there's another big factor that determines who eats what technology <music> technology related to how food is grown preserved transported but also technology that isn't even related to the food itself consider the case of mutton. Mutton is the meat of an adult sheep. The meat of young sheep is called lamb. I'm willing eh that you have not eaten in the last six months. Probably the last six years maybe never but if we were talking one hundred years ago oh different story that certainly the case that back in the nineteen twenties and thirties at that mutton was a much more commonly consumed product. Mutton was a staple of the american diet. One of the standard items shipped to soldiers during world war two was canned mutton but shortly after the war mutton and started to disappear what happened as she is. Not just me okay. Sheep is not just meet these are multi product product species and their valuable not just for their meat but further wall oh yeah wool and unlike leather which can be harvested only once from from an animal you can share wool from one sheep many times over many years so anything that affects the demand for wool is also going to affect the underlying market for the rest of the <hes> of the underlying animals and what might affect the demand for wool how about synthetic substitutes nylon for instance was created created by dupont in nineteen thirty five and became available to the public in nineteen forty a year later polyester was invented so anytime you had new clothing technologies come along that's going to affect the underlying demand for for sheep and make them less less valuable than they would have been otherwise so an increase increase in synthetic fabrics led to a shrinking demand for wool which meant that although sheep that had been kept around for shearing no longer needed to be kept around and also will subsidies were repealed and america's sheep flock drastically shrank from high of fifty six million in nineteen forty two. You barely five million today. It is amazing. I've worked at several <hes> agricultural universities across the u._s. Now often the largest sheep herds in those states or at the university research farms and fewer sheep meant less mutton for dinner is it possible americans would have stopped eating mutton without the rise of synthetic fabrics bricks absolutely if you ask a room full of meat eaters to name their favourite me. I doubt one of them will say mutton still this. This is just one example of how technology can have a big effect on the meat we eat and if you talk to certain people it's easy to believe that we're on the verge of a similar similar but much larger technological shift okay. My name is pat brown. I am currently the c._e._o. And founder impossible foods whose mission is to completely replace animals as a food production technology brown grew up in the suburbs of washington dc z. as well as paris and taipei father worked for the c._i._a. He studied to be a pediatrician and in fact completed his medical residency but he switched switched to biochemistry research. I had the best job in the world. <hes> at stanford my job was basically to discover and invent things and follow my curiosity. Brown did this for many years and was considered a world-class researcher. One of his breakthroughs was a new tool for genetic mapping. It's called the d._n._a. Micro ray that lets you read all the words sal is using and effectively kind of start to learn the vocabulary learn how the genome writes the life story of a cell or something like that it also has practical applications because what it's doing in sort of a deterministic way specifies the potential of that cell or if it's a cancer sal some people think the d._n._a. Micro array will win. Pat brown a nobel rebel prize when i bring this up he just shakes his head and smiles. It's clear that his research was deep passion for me. This was the dream job. It was like in the renaissance you know having the magies as <hes> patrons or something like that but after many years brown wanted a change he was in his mid fifty s. He took a sabbatical figure out his next move. It started out with <hes> stepping back from the work. I was doing and ask myself the most important thing i could do. What could i do that. We have the biggest positive impact on the world and looking at what are the biggest unsolved problems in the world. I came relatively quickly. They conclusion that the use of animals fruit production technology is by far and <unk>. I'd give you endless reasons why that's true but it is absolutely true by far the most environmentally destructive thing that humans do there is indeed a great deal of evidence for this argument coming across the entire environmental spectrum the agricultural historian james mcwilliams a book called just food are used that quote every environmental mental problems related to contemporary agriculture ends up having its deepest roots in meat production monocropping excessive applications of nitrogen fertilizer addiction fiction to insecticides rainforest depletion land degradation topsoil runoff declining water supplies even global warming all these problems mcwilliams williams writes would be considerably less severe if people ate meat rarely if ever. There's no doubt that meat production has environmental consequences focuses. Jason lusk again to suggest that it's the most damaging environmental thing we do is <hes> i think pretty extreme overstatement but what about the greenhouse gas gas emissions associated with raising me especially in the u._s. Which is the world's largest beef producer our own e._p._a. Environmental protection agency suggests that all of livestock contributes about three percent of our total greenhouse gas emissions so i mean three percent is not nothing but it's it's not the major contributor contributor that we see that that number i should say is much higher than many other parts of the world so the carbon impacts per pound produced are so much smaller. We're here than a lot of other world but when you tell people the way to reduce carbon emissions is to intensify animal production and that's not a story a lot of people like to hear because why not it sounds ah gets against animal welfare well two reasons exactly one is there are concerns about animal welfare particularly when you're talking about ruler chickens or or hogs less so about cattle the other one is there are concerns about when you concentrate all animals one place and get all this waste in in a location that you have to think about creative eight of ways to deal with that don't have some significant our mental problems so the e._p._a. Number livestock contributing three percent does that include the entire production chain go because some of the numbers that i see from environmental activists is much much higher than that the u n estimate that you often hear from iraq originally it was created in this report called livestock. Long shadow was something around nineteen percent that nineteen percent roughly number is a global number. <hes> actually there was a study that came out pointing out some flaws in that so they reduced it somewhat in any case there is is a growing concern in many quarters over the externalities of meat production over the last five to ten years. There's been a lot of negative publicity stories about environmental impacts about carbon emissions about animal welfare and if you just look at the news stories you would think boy <hes> people must be really cutting back in the sort of frightful stories that you see on the front pages of the newspapers but if you look at the data itself <hes> demand looks fairly elise stable and so that suggested either. It's it's hard to change people's preferences on this. There's something about meat consumption. Some people would argue that were evolved to like meet that it's a protein vitamin packed. You know tasty punch that we've grown to enjoy as a species there are are some people that even argue that it's one of the reasons we became a smart as we did the vitamins and nutrients during that meet allowed our brains to you develop in certain ways that it might have not otherwise pat brown saw same strong preference for me when he decided that the number one scientific scientific problem to solve was replacing animals as food and it's a problem that nobody was working on in any serious way because everybody recognize that most people in the world including most environmental scientists and people who care about this stuff a love the food that we get from animals so much that they can't imagine <hes> giving those up brown himself was a longtime vegan so i've i haven't eaten you know beat for decades gauge and that's just a personal choice that i made long before i realized the destructive impact of that industry that was a choice for other reasons and it wasn't something that i felt like you know i was in a position. Tell other people to do and i still don't feel like there's any value in doing that. Brown makes an interesting point here many of us when we feel strongly about something environmental issue or social or economic because you were inclined to put forth a moral argument amaro argument would appear to be persuasive evidence of the highest order. You should do this thing because it's the right thing to do but there is a ton of research showing that moral arguments are generally ineffective. People may smile at you and nod but they won't change their behavior. That's what brown realized about meet. The basic problem is that that people are not gonna stop wanting these foods and the only way you're gonna solve it is not by estimate you halfway and give them a substandard product. That doesn't deliver what they know. They want from meat or fish or anything like that the only way to do it. Is you have to say. We're going to do with a much harder thing. Which is we're going to figure out how to make meet. That's not just as delicious as the meat. We get from animals. It's more delicious and better nutritionally and more affordable double and so forth in other words a marginal improvement on the standard veggie burger would not do it's been tried. It just doesn't work. It's a waste of effort offered so brown's started fooling around in his lab doing some kind of micro experiments just to convince myself in a way that this was doable the early experiments were fairly encouraging. I felt like okay. There's a bunch of things i thought <hes> could be useful and then i felt like i could just go in with a little bit more confidence to talk the investors. The investors meaning venture capitalists remember brown is at stanford which is next door to the the biggest pile of venture capital in the history of the world then basically by pitch them. Was you know it was it was very naive from a fundraising standpoint in the sense and set <hes> basically i mostly just told them about how there's this absolutely critical environmental told disaster that needs to be solved and and they're probably expecting to hear something now about carbon capture. That's that's the thing. Most people still are so anyway. Blah blah blah so i told these guys look. This is an environmental disaster. No one's doing anything about it. I'm going to solve it for you. So how does the almost pediatrician who became a freewheeling biochemist build a better meet from the ground up that amazing story after the break okay bingo. This is how we're going to do. I'd freakonomics radio sponsored by kronos cronos knows that hiring in retaining a modern workforce of salaried hourly full and part-time workers can be challenging especially in today's competitive job market. That's why kronos puts h._r. <unk> payroll talent and time in one place so h._r. 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I dot google dot com switch to google fi a phone plan by google. It's estimated that more than half of the greenhouse gas emissions associated with all animal agriculture comes comes from cows and that is due to the fact that be for ruminant animals the purdue economists jason lusk again their stomachs produce methane <hes> <hes> comes out the front end not the back end is a lot of people think and as a consequence we look at carbon consequences mainly beef that people focus on not pork birchington because <hes> they don't have the same kind of digestive systems. There has been progress in this area for instance. It turns out that adding seaweed to cattle. Oh feed drastically reduces their methane output but the scientists pat brown is looking for a much bigger change to the animal agriculture industry. If i could god snap my fingers and make that industry disappear right now which i would do i could and it'd be a great thing for the world. It is very unlikely to disappear anytime soon. It is a trillion dollar global industry supported in many places by government subsidies selling a product product that billions of people consume once twice three times a day. Pat brown's desire would seem to be an impossible one in the company. He founded is called impossible foods. It's essentially a tech startup. It's raised more than seven hundred fifty million dollars in venture capital. Oh and as of may was valued at two billion dollars so we've only been <hes> in existence for about seven years and we have a lot three eight hundred people we started basically <hes> building a team of some of the best scientists in the world to study how meat works basically and and by that i mean to really understand that a basic level the way in my previous life. When i was about medical scientist we might be studying how a normal cell of this particular kind become a cancer cell understanding the basic biochemical mechanisms in this case but we want anton just stand was what are the basic biochemical mechanisms that account for the unique flavor chemistry mystery and their flavor behavior and aromas and textures and juicy nece and all those are qualities that consumers value in meat and we spent spent about two and a half years just doing basic research trying to answer that question before we really started working on a product and then uh-huh decided for strategic reasons that our first product would be while ground beef made entirely from plants because burger's what people want or well. There's a lot of <hes> <hes> reasons why i think it was a good strategic choice the largest single category of meeting the u._s. It's probably the most iconic kind of meat in the u._s. It seemed like the ideal vehicle for communicating to consumers that delicious meat <hes> doesn't have to come from animals <hes> because it's it's sort of the uber or meat for a lot of people hooper lower case you with a lower keep not kaelin burgers and beef production is the most environmentally environmentally destructive segment of the an wider culture industry so from an impact standpoint it made sense as a choice so pat brown said about repurposing the scientific wisdom accrued over a long fruitful career in in biomedicine a career that may improve the health and wellbeing of countless millions and now he got to work on a truly earthshaking project building a better burger. A burger doesn't come from a cow impossible burger so oh how did that work. What ingredients do you put in an impossible burger. That's an interesting aspect signs. Which is that we didn't look for. What are the precisely specific choices of ingredients that would work. We studied what are the biochemical chemical properties we need from the set of ingredients and then we did a survey of things available from the plant world that match those biophysical we'll properties and so forth of which there were choices so what are the main components of this burger. I can tell you what it's made of right now. The what it's made of right now is different from how it was made two years ago and that was different from how has made two and a half years ago and the next version asian. We're going to launch his co. Quite different set of ingredients. We i interviewed brown several months ago the main ingredients at the time included a protein from wheat a protein from potato starch from potatoes but a protein from potatoes to byproduct of starch production among the other ingredients coconut oils the major fats horse and and then we have a bunch of other small molecules but they're all familiar with things acids of vitamin sugars nutrients but all these ingredients did not make pat brown's plant eh based hamburger meat taste or act or look lake hamburger meat. It was still missing a critical component. A component called him okay so he has found in essentially every living thing and he implants and human animals is the exact same molecule okay. It's it's just one of the most ubiquitous ubiquitous and fundamental molecules in life on earth period the system that burns calories to produce energy uses team as an essential component and it's what carries oxygen in your blood what and what makes your blood red and none of this we discovered this has been known for a long time and and <hes> so animals have a lot more hime than plants dance and it's that very high concentration of him that accounts for the unique flavors of meat that you would recognize something as meat. It's the overwhelmingly dominant factor in making the unique taste of meat and visit isn't involved in texture and mouth feel and all that as well he does taste just okay just taste texture and mouth feel are important and there's a whole nother set of research around that super important it kinda gets short shrift because people think of the flavor as sort of the most most dramatic thing about me but you have to get out of this stuff right to brown and his team of scientists after a couple years of research and experimentation were getting a lot lot of that stuff right but without him a lot of hime their meatless meat would never resemble meat so there is one component of a certain kind of plant that has a high concentration team and that is in plants that fix nitrogen taking nitrous from the air and turn it into fertilizer <hes> they they have a structure called the root nodule <hes> joe where nurtured and fixation takes place and for reasons that are too complicated to explain right now they they that has a high concentration of team and i just happened to know this from way back and and if you slice open the root nodules of one of these plants they have such a high concentration of him that they look like a freshly cut steak okay and and i did a calculation shen about the concentration of that stuff so chemo. Goldman is a protein which is virtually identical to the team protein in muscle tissue which is called my globe and <hes> that there was is enough leg hemoglobin in the root nodules of the u._s. Soybean crop to replace all the team in all the meat consumed in the u._s. Okay so i thought genius okay. We'll just go out and harvest all these root nodules from the u._s. Soybean crop and we'll get this stuff practically for free well so are raised money for the company and we spent like half the money trying to figure out how to harvest sees raju from soybean plant only basically the finally convince ourselves said it was a terrible idea but if you are a veteran scientists lake brown a little failure is not so offputting eating you know you're going to be doing things that are pushing the limits and trying entirely new things and a lot of we're gonna fail and if you don't have a high high tolerance for that and realize that basically the way you do really really important cool stuff is by trying a lot of things and not punishing punishing yourself for the failures but just celebrating the successes you know you're you're not going to accomplish as much in the idea of buying up all the root nodules of the u._s. With soybean crop wasn't a complete failure. I mean we got enough that we could do experiments to prove that really wasn't magic ingredient from flavor and so forth but then we had to start all over and then <hes> <hes> what we did was we said okay. We're going to have to engineer a microorganism produce gobs of this team protein okay and since now we weren't it bound by any natural source we looked at like three dozen different proteins everything from pera museum to <hes> barley to <hes> hell's gate bacteria which is like this plant back there till that lives in in deep sea vents at near new zealand. That's that survives temperatures above the boiling point of water <hes> that we mostly just looked for fun but finding about that and the reason we rejected is that that you <hes> it it's so heat stable that you can cook a burger to cooking temperature and it still says stays bright red because it doesn't unfold but anyway and then we pick the best one which turned out to be just coincidentally soiling hemoglobin which was the moment going asteroid is actually pretty good. It wasn't really a brilliant idea would <unk> accidentally turned out to be the right choice through the magic of modern plant engineering pat brown's team began creating massive stocks of him <hes> and that would help catapult the impossible burger well beyond the realm of the standard veggie burger the mostly unloved veggie burger. We should say the impossible. Burger looks like hamburger meat. When it's raw in when it's cooked it behaves like hamburger meat most important. It tastes like hamburger. I would like the american earth an impossible. Here's how would you like. Oh the media. Maybe in the middle. It's the freakonomics radio team recently eight some impossible burgers in a restaurant near times square. I actually can't tasted like it is like a good day for the impossible for economics zac lipinski housing craig o. rien kelly and greg rippin. Their meal happened to coincide with the release of impossible burger two point. Oh oh an updated recipe that uses a soy protein instead of a week protein and has a few more tweaks less salt sunflower oil to cut the coconut toil and no more is anthem gummer condom in my own tasting experience impossible burger. One point zero was really good but a little slushy eighty two point zero was burger tastic. I did not record my burger tasting but if i did it would have sounded like this <music>. These are of course are subjective observations. Here's some actual evidence impossible. Burgers are already being served served in thousands of locations primarily in the u._s. But also hong kong and macau these include very high end restaurants in new york and california as well as fast food chains sounds like you mommy burger white castle and burger king which after piloting the impossible walker in saint louis this spring has just gone nationwide impossible hospital also has plans to start selling its burger meat in grocery stores this year we've grown in terms of our sales and revenue and so forth about thirty fold in the past year and our goal is to completely replace animals food technology by twenty thirty five that means we have to approximately double in size and an impact every year for the next you know eighteen years. Are we understand that you are taking aim at pigs and chickens and fish as well yes of course so when when we first started out we were working on technology platform and sort of the know how about how meat works in general we were working on <hes> understanding dairy products and cheeses and and stuff like that and then we decide okay we have to pick one product launch with and then we have to from commercialization sandpoint just go all in on it for a while as the scientists as a scientist. Were you reluctant to kind of narrow yourself for that commercial interest or did you appreciate that this. This is the way in this world things actually happen. Both i mean let's put it this way. I would like to be able to to pursue all these things in parallel and if i had the resources sources i would but if we launched another product right now we just be competing against ourselves for resources for commercialization so just doesn't make any sense <music> we put out an episode not long ago called two totally opposite ways to save the planet it. It featured the science journalist charles man. Are we going to deal with climate change. There've been two ways that have been suggested overarching ways to represent if you like polls continuum and they've been fighting with each other for decades the two polls are represented by what man calls in his latest book the wizard and the prophet the prophet sees environmental destruction as a problem best addressed by restoring nature to its natural state the wizard. Meanwhile believes that technology analogy can address environmental dangers. This is of course a typology a shorthand. A profit doesn't necessarily fear technology any more within a wizard fears nature that said if there were ever an embodiment of the wizard profit hybrid person driven by idealism an pragmatism in equal measure. I'd say it's brown from impossible foods which means his invention has the capacity city to upset people all across the spectrum the consumers and activists who might cheer a meatless meat are often the same mm sort of people who are anti g._m._o. Genetically modified organisms in the impossible burger would not have been possible without it's genetically modified him which by the way the f._d._a. Recently declared safe after challenges from environmental groups like friends of the earth another group that might object to impossible foods the meat industry you know the ones who use actual animals to raise food. My name is kelly fogarty and i serve as the executive vice president for the united states cattlemen's association and i am a fifth generation beef cattle rancher here in oakdale california. I'm just curious as a woman. You find yourself ever wishing the u._s. Cattlemen's association would change their name or you okay with it. You know it's funny. You mentioned that there was always a little bit of a notion there in the back of my mind of a have you know of course being an industry for so long i take it as representing all of the livestock industry but definitely having a special nod to all the a female ranchers out there would be nice to have as well and what is the primary difference between the u._s. Cattlemen's association and the national cattlemen's beef association as the united states cattlemen's association. We are made up primarily of cattle producers so your family ranches. You know cow. Calf operations is run by producers and kind of four producers as what u._s._c._c._a. was built on whereas national cattlemen's beef association does include some more of packer occur influences as well as some of the processing facilities as well. Can you just talk generally for a moment. How big of a threat does the beef industry receive from alternative quote meat so from our end and looking at the quote unquote meat and appreciate you <hes> hito using those quotes around that too from our end. We're not so much seeing it as a threat to our product well we really looking at is not <hes> limit on consumer choice or trying to back one product out of the market. It's really to make sure that we're keeping the information out there accurate and that what is available consumers and what is being shown to consumers on labels is accurate to what the product actually is in two thousand eighteen forties organization filed a petition with the u._s._d._a. to prevent products from being labeled as beef or meet unless they come from cow couch. I mean does that mean that your organization thinks that consumers are confused by labeling that the primary objection so the primary deduction from from the united states cattlemen's association is that we want to keep the term meet to what is traditionally only harvested and raised in the traditional manner and so when we see the term meat being put on these products that is not derived from that that <hes> definition what our producers came to us in really wanted us to act on was what we saw happened in other industries specifically typically when you look at the dairy industry and where the term milk has now been used almond milk for instance which comes from almonds not animals which led the national milk producers federation to argue that it should not be sold as almond milk the f._d._a. Commissioner seem seem to agree pointing out that quote and almond doesn't lactate and the agency is now reviewing the labeling policy. Which is why you may soon see your grocery store. We're carrying almond beverage rather than almond milk. There are important differences between so-called milk that doesn't come from animals and so-called meet that doesn't come from animals almond milk as very different nutritional content and cow's milk the impossible burger. Meanwhile has a similar nutritional attritional profile to hamburger including the iron content which vegans can have trouble getting enough of that's another reason why kellie fogarty and the u._s. Cattlemen's association association might not want the impossible burger to be labeled me. I am just curious about the kind of i guess mental state of your industry because i was looking at your facebook page and one post the other day lead with with the following eat or be eaten <hes> be at the table or on the menu fight or be forgotten saddam that sounds it would make me believe that that the future of meat is one in which cattle ranchers feel a little bit like an endangered species or at least under assault. I think that speaks to a lot of i think misconceptions that are out there regarding the u._s. beef industry whether it be in terms of nutrition environment animal welfare. You're <hes> we've. We've really been hit from a lot of different angles over the years okay well. According to some scientific research meat production an and or cattle ranching are among the most environmentally damaging activities on on earth between the resource intensiveness land but especially the water and the extra analyses the runoff manure and chemicals into groundwater. I think one of the first points to make is that cattle cattle are are really they're defined as as what is termed as upside dealers and so- cattle today they're turning plans that have little to no nutritional value just as is into a high quality and a highly high dense protein and so so when you look at where cattle grazing in the u._s. and then also across the world a lot of the land that they are grazing on orland that is not suitable for crops or or would be a kind of looking as a highly marginal type of of land and the ability of livestock to turn what is is there into something that can feed the world is pretty remarkable. Fogarty believes her. The industry has been unfairly maligned that has come to be seen as a target for environmentalist groups and causes. I would absolutely say the livestock industry <hes> and into that matter agriculture industry as a whole i think has really been at the brunt of a lot of a lot of disinformation campaigns fogarty points to the u._n. Report claiming that the global livestock industries greenhouse gas emissions were shockingly high report that was found to be built on faulty calculations yeah so it was a really an equitable and grossly inflated percentage that really turned a conversation. The inflated percentage around eighteen percent was really around fourteen point five percent so grossly inflated. Maybe in the eye of the aggrieved fogarty already says that even though the air was acknowledged and a revised report was issued folks have not forgotten it as much as we wish shh. It's still something that it's hard to have folks kind of unreal need or know something that they initially saw the fact is the agricultural industry is massive and massively complex without question it exacts costs on the environment it also provides hides benefits that are literally the stuff of life delicious abundant affordable food as with any industry there are trade-offs trade-offs and there's friction activists tend to overstate their claims in order to encourage reform industry defenders tend to paper over legitimate intimate concerns but in the food industry especially it's clear that a revolution is underway a revolution to have our food be not just delicious wishes and abundant and affordable but sustainable too with fewer negative extra nowadays some startups like impossible foods focus on cleverly engineering plant matter to taste like the animal flesh so many people love other startups are working on what's called lab grown meat using animal stem themselves to grow food without animals. This is still quite young technology but it's very well funded. I was curious to hear kelly. Fogarty's view you of this. One of the investors in the lab meet quote company memphis meets <hes> is cargill <hes> which is is a major constituent of the big meat industry. <hes> i mean another investor for what it's worth is bill gates but i'm curious. What's what's your position on that. Because the way i think about this long-term longterm presumably affirm cargill can win the future with alternative quote meet in a way that a cattle rancher can't so oh i'm curious what the position is of ranchers on this kind of investment from a firm light cargo or other firms that are sort of hedging their bets awesome on the future of meat you know and it's a really interesting point in it's it's been a bit of a tough pill for producers to swallow <hes> the fact that some the big three some of these big processing plants that have been so obviously heavily focused and have been livestock dominant are now now kind of going into this alternative in sometimes a cell cultured lab meets alternative proteins and it really has been a point of contention among a lot of producers who are kind of <hes> confused unsure feel a little bit. <hes> you know kind of how you know trying to think of the right term here but i don't wanna say betrayed by by the industry but but a little bit so others may soon feel betrayed as well a company called modern meadows is using similar technology to grow leather in the lab without the need for cattle the israeli company super meat is focused on growing chicken impossible foods is experimenting with fish substitutes including an anchovy flavored broth roth and then there's a company called finless foods. Finless foods is taking seafood back to basics and creating real fish meat entirely early without mercury plastic without the need for antibiotics or growth hormones and also without the need for fishing or the killing of animals because we grow the fish directly from stem cells. It's mike selden the co founder and c._e._o. Of finless he's twenty seven years old. He started out as a cancer researcher. Searcher lake pat brown. You could call him a wizard prophet hybrid. He does take issue with the idea of lab grown food. The reality what is like labs are by definition experimental are not scalable see. This won't be grown in a lab at all. It's prototypes in the lab in the same way. Snacks are prototypes in a lab doritos are prototypes in a lab by material scientists looking at different dimensions of like crunch and torsion and all these other sort of mechanical properties <hes> so what are facility will look like when we're actually at production scale. It's something really a lot closer to a brewery. <hes> big steel tanks that are sort of allowing these cells space in order to divide and grow into large quantities of themselves while accessing all the nutrients that we put inside of this nutritional broth aw the fishing industry the meat industry exact its share of environmental costs but lake pat brown. Mike seldom does not want his company to win on goodwill points so the goal of finless foods is not to create something that competes on ethics or morals or environmental goals. It's something that will compete heat on taste price in nutrition. The things that people actually care about you know right now <hes> everybody really loves wales and people hate when wales are killed old what changed because we used to kill whales for their blubber in order to light lamps. It wasn't an ethical movement. It wasn't that people woke up one day and decided did oh killing whales is wrong. It was that we ended up using kerosene instead. We found another technological solution supply-side change that didn't play on people's morals laurels in order to win. We see ourselves as something like that. You know why work with an animal at all. If you don't need to indeed you could imagine in the not so distant future a scenario in which you could instantly summon any food imaginable new foods new combinations but also foods that long ago fell out of favour. How much fun would that be. I asked the agricultural economist jason lusk about this if we had a three d. printer and let's say had just we'll be conservative one hundred buttons of different foods that it could make me does anyone anyone pressed the button button on the great things about our food system is that it's a food system that yes makes food affordable but also has has a whole awful lot of choice for people who are willing to pay it and i bet there's probably at least one or two people out there that will push that button. I also asked lusk for his economic views on the future of meat especially the sort of projects that inventors like mike selden and pat brown or working on you know i. I have no problems with what you know. Dr brown's trying to do their an indeed. I think it's very exciting this technology and i think you automatically. It'll come down to whether this lab. Grown meat can compete on the merit so there's no free lunch here in fact that impossible burger. I've seen it on menus. It's almost always higher price than the traditional beefburger now as an economist look at that and say those prices to me should be signaling something about resource use. Maybe it's 'perfect. Maybe there's some extra analogies but they should reflect all the resources that were used to go into produce that product. It's one of the reasons that beef is more expensive than say chicken. It takes more time more inputs to get produce a pound of beef than a pound of chicken. So why is it that the impossible burger is more expensive the regular burger now <hes> it could be that this is just a start up and they're not working at scale once. They really scale this thing up at a really bring the price down it could be. They're also marketing to a particular. A higher income consumer is willing to pay a little more but i think you know if the claims about <hes> the impossible burger are truth overtime one would expect these <hes> <hes> products to come down significantly in price and be much less expensive than beef production and this is not gonna be friends happy but if they can do that good for him <hes> in consumers want to pay for this part of your life the way it tastes and it saves money which means it savings and resources i think in that sense it's a great technology coming coming up next time on freakonomics radio another n._f._l. Season is about to start. How is this year different mall other years. We've seen hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars worth of bets made since we launched and seems to be getting bigger every month recent supreme court ruling cleared the way for widespread sidespread legal sports betting in the u._s. Should we be worried we do know of gambling is associated with lots of bad social affects okay but if you are going to bet on sports what's the first step so a number one learn statistics for sports betting in in the u._s. It is not just fantasy anymore. It's next time on freakonomics radio. Freakonomics radio is produced by stitcher and governor productions. This episode was produced by zach lipinski. Our staff also includes alison craig low greg rippin harry huggins met hickey and korean wallace. Our intern is daphne acne chen. We had helped this week from nelly osborne or theme. Song is mr fortune hitchhikers. All the other music was composed by lee scare. 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Ooh stitcher freakonomics listeners. My name is mick turner. I'm nick batra and we are two comedians who are bad with money. We need more of it so we started this podcast to learn how to make some money every week. We try a new get rich. Quick scheme in in this gig economy to see if we can make money doing it. Some are legit others are less. We try plasma donation. We walk dogs at aren't ours. We write e books. We move the furniture back and forth. We sell drugs. We sneak things across the border. They are drugs. We bribed cops costumes in hollywood boulevard and shake people's both hands that don't want to be shaking. One of us takes a bullet and sells it at a pawn shop. We don't make much money that episode now in fact my friend unwanted bullet bag. Gingrich nick is out august twenty seven subscribe wherever you get your podcast.

pat brown jason lusk researcher brown america google scientist burger purdue university california Fogarty america Mutton Josh craig o. rien kelly
Once Impossible, Engineered Burgers Catch On

Business Wars Daily

04:31 min | 1 year ago

Once Impossible, Engineered Burgers Catch On

"Business wars daily is brought to you by papal when it comes to growing your business. You need a partner you can trust for today and tomorrow and pay pal processes over ten million payments per day. That's experience you can rely on. Visit pay pal dot com slash growth to set up a free business account today. From wondering, I'm David Brown. And this is business wars daily. Happy Monday, everyone if you're like me, you may be feeling like you indulge just a little too much over the holiday weekend. And that it's time to return to some healthy eating, maybe even give up meat. That's true. You're hardly alone. Consumers have been snapping up new kind of plant based burger that not only tastes like ground beef. It looks and bleeds like it. It hasn't been available everywhere. But that's about to change in the process, creating what could be a well bloody rough war between rivals backed by some of the biggest names in Silicon Valley. So far impossible foods are Redwood City California start up as made it's impossible burger available only in restaurants from fat burger to white castle. But next year it's coming to grocery stores. The company announced this month that'll put impossible foods head to head with beyond meat who's plant based burger was the first to be sold. And supermarkets not next to the veggie burgers. But in the meat section ten days after impossible foods announced it supermarket intentions rival beyond meat said, it's planning to go public with the one hundred million dollars at hopes to raise a company will expand into restaurants. So what are these things exactly they're not veggie, burgers, like Boca, burgers, and MorningStar farms patties, which have been on shelves for years, rather, they're engineered from plant proteins and intended to look smell and sizzle just like meet the products, which in beyond case also include fo-, sausage, and chicken strips are designed to tempt omnivores not just vegetarians founders of both companies see their missions is feeding a world with nine billion people without harming animals or worsening climate change impossible food CEO Pat Brown molecular biologist has an even greater ambition. He wants to end the use of all animals in food production by twenty thirty five. The broader mission has captured the attention of social investors like Bill Gates who's invested in both companies on a more prosaic level. These burgers might just help with those early December diets that is before the Christmas Turkey and ham Tempus all over again. From wondering this business worse daily? Hey while you grabbing a quick snack. Take a second. Give us a five star rating on apple podcast, Google podcasts. Stitcher or your favorite listening? Apogee? Thanks. I'm David Brown. Be back with you tomorrow. Business wars daily is brought to you by pay pal when Zeke was a kid spending summers on his grandfather's farm. He knew he wanted to be part of bringing wholesome food to people. He started his artisanal Honey company be raw by creating a network of dozens of beekeepers across the country. When he got his Honey into high in national stores, he thought he'd made it, but when he saw his margins decreasing due to distributor fees and seasonal production. Made it difficult to meet retail demands Lee decided to take his products primarily online from the get-go. He featured pay pow prominently on his site because he knew it gave his customers confidence that he was a legitimate business with quality products over the past five years. Pay palace helped him convert more clicks into sales and expand his business. He's grown every year and added new items like t candles and beauty products. So when you're ready to grow your online business pay pal can help you turn shoppers into buyers. Visit pay pal dot com slash growth to set up a business account. You can sign up for free today. That's pay pal dot com slash growth.

David Brown meat Zeke Redwood City California partner Bill Gates Lee Silicon Valley white castle Pat Brown MorningStar farms Apogee apple CEO Google one hundred million dollars
Impossible Foods CEO Patrick Brown on replacing animal meat worldwide

The Vergecast

51:34 min | 6 months ago

Impossible Foods CEO Patrick Brown on replacing animal meat worldwide

"Nationwide Five G. is here. Thanks to t mobile. They just built the first largest and only nationwide five G. Network in America. Nobody else comes close. T. Mobile's invested billions of dollars. That's billion with a B. In New Five G. Towers and cell sites across the country making their signal more reliable both indoors and out out more about T. mobile's nationwide five G. Network T. DASH MOBILE DOT com. That's T- dash mobile dot com capable device required coverage not available in some areas. Downlink only some uses may require certain plant or feature. Ct DASH MOBILE DOT COM. This episode is brought to you by new country. Crock plant butter. A dairy free plant based butter made with ingredients like olive oil avocado oil. And Almond Oil. You can substitute plant butter sticks for dairy butter in any of your favorite recipes because it tastes cooks and bakes just like butter. It's so delicious. Even Bader lovers love it country crock. Plant butter is available at stores like Walmart. Kroger to find a store near you visit country. Crock DOT COM SLASH PLANT. Dash Butter. Everybody San from the rich cast on this week's episode. We have impossible food. Ceo Patrick Brown impossible foods makes the impossible burger. That you've seen Patrick is a really interesting guy. He was a professor at Stanford before taking a sabbatical figuring out what the next biggest problem in the world was the deciding to make impossible foods. We talked a lot about where impossible came from where it's going. How they get out of just sort of the fast foods on their end right now to get into grocery stores how they replace Moore meets not just gram beef but other meats like pork and chicken. How can eventually get to something like steak? Then we've got a little weird. We talked about whether they can make a meet. That doesn't exist. Which is something that they're thinking about doing. And we talk about the big dream. Which is not a substitute for me. But replacing it entirely worldwide and what that would actually mean for our climate or a culture super interesting conversation. Patrick is very heavy guy. Here's Patch Brown of impossible. Foods Superintendent Conversation. Check it out Pat Brown. You're the CEO of impossible foods. Welcome to the rich has thank you. How are things in this time of furnace for you? Oh well so far. Things are going pretty smoothly. We're obviously taking public health precautions. Common Health Public Health precautions which basically come down to trying to reduce the number of unique individuals that you come into close contact with per unit time and So we've instituted some stuff at our company and so forth but So far too disruptive. Yeah every every chance. I get to speak to a national scientists about about the virus since impacts. I'm taking so thank you for for leading with that but you guys are not a public company doesn't affected by the turmoil in the markets that are being caused by. That's where thing do you have supply chain issues and things like that Not yet we're we're obviously paying very close attention to that because Mo- we do have a supply chain and I think it's generally pretty robust and so far. No significant part of it is an area that's particularly vulnerable on. Things are changing fast. So we're just keeping a close eye on it and we'll figure it out if we do run into any issues all right. Well let's get off the the the minute to minute. News of the virus and just take one setback. So we've been close attention to the rise of plant-based meets the future food care about a lot. Just give me a little background and impossibly started. You were professor at Stanford. You've done a lot of things you took a break and you found it impossible in two thousand eleven walking up to that moment okay. Well I'll try to keep it as brief as possible so I was a professor and medical school at Stanford. My main role was basically running a a very active research lab OR GRADUATE AND POST. Docs trained and we were doing research. That was had nothing directly to do with food whatsoever. It was it was basically developing tools for Being able to watch the genome works understanding genes and how genes and cells work and Developing tools that To improve you know diagnosis of various human diseases including cancer and all sorts of stuff like that but the common threat is nothing to do with food. And I had a sabbatical and I was fortunate that you know in my role at Stanford and Howard Hughes Medical Institute. I had wide latitude to pick research problems to work on. And so I just give myself myself. A broad mandate to look for the most important and urgent global problem that I could potentially contribute to solving and when I did that investigation. I very quickly realized that. By far by a huge margin the most important problem is the catastrophic impact of The use of animals in the food system it has by far the most environmentally destructive technology on earth. And at the time I would say it was not widely recognized in fact even most environmental organizations hadn't fully gotten their heads around it. Now I would say to Mo- series environmental scientists that look at environmental problems would completely endorse statement that the use of animals and food production is by far the most destructive technology on earth. It's the greatest threat. I would say that argue the greatest threat that our species has ever faced his the catastrophic impact of this technology on the planet so I realized that I felt like Okay Bang. I know what I'm going to work on. I spent some time thinking about what would be the most effective way to solve the problem and after a couple of false starts decided that basically it comes down to. You're not going to change people's Diet you're not GonNa Change People's Food Preference says not at any reasonable time scale. It's been tried a million times never works and that meant that. It's technology problem. The way to solve the problem is to make it a losing proposition to be using the technology to produce food and the way we do that is to compete in the market against the incumbent industry by making products that outperform and all the ways American consumers that outperformed the product today make using animals. And that I realized was actually quite doable. It's a hard problem. It's a hard scientific problem. But it's clearly a solvable scientific problem. And so that's when I dove in basically and Quit my job which I had loved for twenty five years and couldn't have imagined quitting and basically found it impossible foods with the mission of completely replacing animals as a food technology globally by twenty thirty five. That's our mission. The time factor is not arbitrary. And the way we're doing it. As basically focusing on figuring out how to make the absolute best meat fish dairy foods in the world has judged by their consumers competing in the marketplace and Taking down the company industry just has happened to many industries in the past that there were using underperforming. Technologies can happen fast. So you were founded in twenty eleven. It's twenty twenty nine years later you want to completely displace animal-based based production but twenty thirty five. That's fifteen years from now. Feels like you're probably at an inflection. Point is that. Is that about where you are where you're going from proving out the tech to mass producing and commercializing because you just cut wholesale prices by fifteen percent. I saw on some of the products so it feels like you're accelerating into creating demand as well as filling the demand. Well I kind of feel like we're probably going to be at one inflection point after another for a long while because you know. This is a very a very hard problem. Multifaceted starts with the challenge of understanding in molecular terms. These foods better than they've ever been understood so that we can make smart choices in figuring out how to deliberately make better versions with plant based ingredients. And we're still doing that. I mean I we. You know we're growing our team. One of the I would say. Probably the decisive advantage. We have over. The incumbent industry is that we can keep learning and keep getting better at what we do far into the future whereas they haven't fundamentally improve their technology and thousand years and so that's a huge advantage and so we have you know Our ground beef fraud out is doing extremely. It's very successful. We have lots of demand signals that that say that this is going to grow far beyond where we are today but we're not satisfied with it because we're going to keep improving that product until that. There's absolutely no mediator. In the World No sane person in the world who would choose the conversion over it So that's still going on. And we're working on other strategically chosen products to compete further against the beef industry and other industries that are using animals of technology so the RND is still going on. And we'll be I would say you know far into the future it's kind of like when the first mechanized transportation could finally win a race with the horse they didn't say okay we're done now will just keep cranking these things out. No they had. They had this wonderful advantage that they could keep improving on every in every dimension that mattered. And we do too. So that's that's not gonNA stop. We're sort of very early. Stage in our growth trajectory. We still have to grow almost one hundred thousand fold in in scale to fully achieved our mission of replacing animals in the food system. First of all we need to have a grab an ever-greater share of the market for a beef products we need to Launch products that compete in other sectors of that industry. And do that strategically we need to Expand into intellect international markets. We need to broaden our presence in a retail direct to consumer channels and stuff like that. So it's one thing after another basically one very important point which is yes. We did recently reduce our prices. One of the things that I would say is that you know based on the quality of our product and its advantages from health standpoint when we can sell it at a price that undercuts the price of cow-derived beef. That's the critical moment when the wheels come off the beef industry so we're putting a lot of effort into Achieving the economies of scale and efficiencies which are absolutely doable and passing those savings onto customers and consumers. So I am a couple of questions around that specifically but I just want to give people a sense of the process so you were a research scientist you are in the lab came across idea. You decided to use him. Which is the the key element of the impossible burger? How did you go from understanding it? Scientifically to production. What were the steps there? Because that's usually the part that's fuzzed over and a lot of stories that innovation is we had the insight and now we make a lot of it. What were the big challenges in ramping up? Production to the place where now you're servicing dozens of fast company's your Disneyworld. You're all these places. What what what was the ramp up challenge there? Well one after another again. Because you know we're we're doing something unprecedented So basically first of all we had to get a basic understanding liquor understanding of what it takes to make delicious me then. We are in general terms. Then we had to choose what's going to be our first product. We chose raw ground beef for very strategic reasons. It's more than half of the beef sold in the. Us is is as ground beef Thought a quarter of all the beef produced in the. Us can't be sold. Except it's going to be because it's little nasty looking chunks of a cow that no one would wanna look at and beat. The beef industry is by far the most destructive part of the agriculture industry. It occupies about forty percent of the entire servette land area of the United States and Comparable fraction globally with huge impact on on about diversity and so forth because of that. So we chose beat thousand. That was an important choice. Once we had the fundamental general know-how and now we had to do a deeper dive. Had taken what we had learned and figuring out where we could find sustainable scalable by either the supply chain that that's scalable client ingredients. That fit the exacting specifications required to make a product that would deliver. What consumers want building that and so we had a number of false starts one of the earliest false starts was. I thought when I started this that we're going to be able to so early on. We discovered that he has the magic ingredient for me flavor. That's quite unquestionably true. It's a catalyst that is responsible for you know all unique flavors and Aromas or virtually all the unique flavors and aromas that people identify as any kind of meat that meant we had to figure out a way to scale it. Well initially. I thought that the easy way to kill it was legumes. Soybeans have little structures on the roots called root nodules. That are one of the very few plant tissues that have a high concentration of him. They contain a protein called link hemoglobin that firstly identical to the protein. That's in your muscle tissue and makes her muscle tissue better paint anyway. If you cut open a legume root nodule in the middle of the summer. It's bright red inside and something actually even though soybean farmers. I don't think I've ever. They don't make a habit of cutting open the route but it's it's it's really dramatic and I had calculated. There's enough human the root nodules of the US soybean crop to replace all them hime and all the meat consumed in the US. Oh okay no brainer. World's excuse as a source well turned out and I was you know. It's I've been learning all longest process and it was. In retrospect it was kind of a naive idea but it took us the better part of a year or two to fully realize that this was just not going to work from a from a supply chain standpoint which point we switched to producing the him protein in yeast by Genetically Engineering You sell so we could produce by patient and it was actually Nali vastly more scalable and cost effective and food safe because you're not purifying it from dirt but also has a much lower environmental footprint because you know digging up the soil is releases stored carbonates into the atmosphere so anyway that was one of the first Kind of learning experience about by takes to scale Another is that what we're realizing is we're growing exponentially we've been we've grown several fold Many fold in our our sales here by year That's going to happen again. This year without means is what looks like a very robust supply chain for ingredients a very quickly. You have to start a realized that you'd have to look years ahead when there's an agricultural supply chain if you want more of something that comes from agriculture. It's not just that you put an order. Because lot of these things they weren't built to scale exponentially they were built to just kind of Chug along so we have to be thinking about okay. Well in order to have enough of this in two we got to let the seed company isn't no that they need to produce more seeds and then make sure that the farmers who are growing this stuff no that you know the markets will be demanding more and can basically scale up the whole pipeline. That's something that when you're a little company you kind of know theoretically but you don't have to deal with it but at this Carolina were at and where we're looking at in the next couple of years now. Building a really robust scalable supply chain for all our ingredients in a world where the people who have traditionally produces ingredients think a few percent growth a year is a smashing success. You know we need to be able to grow these things exponentially. So that's that's been a learning experience but fortunately we have some of the best people in the world this You know we hired As our President Dennis Woodside who was CEO of Motorola? Yeah Dennis is familiar to us from those days. Yeah he's awesome and so needless to say managing very complex supply chain Under conditions with unpredictable growth in demand and so forth is like you know one of the court challenges of being in that industry So these guys are pros and thinking about this but that's a scaling issue so there's a little tension it but I wanted to get that because of what you said earlier. Which is we need to get you a place where we're lowering prices and scaling more efficiently. So we can take the wheels off the traditional knee base agriculture industry. But you also talked about improving the product in introducing more products in more areas. Where time usually at least in my experience talking to the S- The Standard Consumer Tech Industry. Those things are a little bit of conflict with each other. In order to scale lower prices. You need to achieve some Conham scale. You need to stop changing the product you need to get Marshall Investment on each new one. But if you're changing your improving you have to pay that investment back into the product. So how are you managing that tension? Well here's here's something to think about. Okay so let's when you're making a product that people buy every year or two the turnover is you know on us lower scale and so forth and the amount of inventory you keep until fourth is frost lower. Because it's turning over all the time we do have a planning process for changing product. In fact we have a. We hired another guy. We hired Who came from apple and you know? He's he's another person who's a pro at planning product launches and so forth. He was in charge of the iphone. Ten or something like that launch there but anyway really being systematic about planning all these switchovers and so forth. So yeah. That's a big deal but we've managed so far and we're going to keep managing it. You know the way we succeed is by making our product better and better so we can't just say well now. We oughta manufacturer this even though we've learned how to make it much better and it will be more competitive. We're just GONNA sit on. Those improvements will launch them. You know. We'll we'll make improvements will introduce them in a in a thoughtful way. But we're not gonNA just Coast Yeah do you think of that? In the context not only of replacing the traditional meat supply. But you've got a lot of competitors now right. There's your traditional one to one competitor that talks about beyond me but Kellogg is out the market. Now saying they're going to do it cargo saying they're going to do it. These are the giants of agriculture and consumer goods. Do you do you worry about them. Do you think they're going to be able to get there with you? Are they pushing you well? This is something that I think. A lot of people understandably are very confused about. We don't think of them as competitors. That's not how we view our business what you need to start out realizing is our mission is not to take out other plant based companies is to take down the animal-based food industry okay. And we don't achieve that by fighting against other plant. Based food producers in fact I would say there are more allies than competitors in my mind. The scale of sales of animal derived meat and traditional animal products. His orders of magnitude greater than all the plant based products combined. Okay so if we if we thought of as well a bunch of we're GONNA fight against a bunch of other small-time operations for dominance in the plant based food industry. I mean that would just be moronic. So that's not at all how we think about it. In fact there's very good case. That could be made that. It will with one caveat which I have to get to the degree that those other companies are success fall. It actually helps us not only our but in our business because it sends a signal to the supply chain. You know the people who are supplying the plant. The ingredients plant based products as well as the market. That this is coming. Okay so in some sense you could say that it is valuable not just mission standpoint but even from from a business standpoint that more and more people are earning the market. The one caveat is that the biggest obstacle you know to adoption of our product is that people think it will suck. That fact was the big reason why we were by we. Strategically launched specifically with some of the most globally recognized hardcore meet chefs in the world. Because the first thing that we needed to do with our sale of our product was the wasn't about the pittance that we made from selling to five restaurants. Something like Pat sent a signal to the world that a plant based product can be good enough as meat that the most uncompromising meet chefs would put on their menu as meat. Okay that that was incredibly important part of our lawn strategy and sort of continues to be for that reason but even to this day the biggest obstacle to trial of our product is that does deeply held notion by mediators that every plant based product. They've ever encountered has been an inadequate substitute for the animal product that they're used to eating and more products come on the market from other companies. That really don't have the know how we have in the tools we have. I would say I'm not going to comment on the quality of those products. But let's say hypothetically if they suck. It is only reinforcing the resistance of mediators to try applying based product. So mostly. It's good that those companies are launching. The problem is that you say that a large majority of them somewhere between fifty percent and honored percent and only served to reinforce the resistance in years. Have trying trying plant based products on like ours which is incredibly delicious and I was in the sense that all those other companies will make something equally delicious. That would actually be better for us so you are in a lot of fast food restaurants now. Are you winning the the head to head battle against beef burgers and all the various fast food establishments here in some of that kind of information? I can do on a company by company basis but I would say that here. Here's what's salient to the Burger. King thing the apostle walker is doing sufficiently well that it meaning fli improved this big companies overall performance in customers sales and so forth. And then Rachel again. I'm not sure what What I can say about this. But in in one of the two chains that the one that does I would say really good job of consumer awareness and so forth Which the chain of twenty five or twenty nine or some numbers stores in California our product. Last time we love was to outselling ground beef from cow full. Stop in those stores. I don't expect that to be true everywhere but one be. I'll say actually. That's quite interesting that we do blend. Consumer tests owned consumer his firearm product. I should say And try moral as blind and then learn about that is made from plants and widened. Savannahs are And we've done this repeatedly a large majority of them say if the product was available in where they shop for meat at prosperity or even at a price premium they would choose it over ground beef from cow and that's around the country and the majority of current mediators have tried our product give that feedback and Also had that are repeat rate among people try to have product is very high. So there's every reason to think that if we were available anyplace where consumers are looking for. Meat had tried on product of very substantial fraction ball ground beef sales would go to where we are now is that very tiny fraction of the population in the. Us has tried our product Lastly looked I think less than half the population even recognize the name. Impossible food much less had a meaningful opinion on that. And so. That's A. That's something that that we have to work on and then we have to make sure that our PAS available people shop so we're only in a tiny tiny fashion of US retail stores and still tiny fraction of of good service operations so in order for us to really get the exposure on pagination. We need you know we actually have to be on the menu restaurant or in the case in the grocery store. So there's a lot of potential there this overcast is brought to you by Ziprecruiter. Hiring used to be hard multiple job sites stacks resumes confusing review process. But today hiring can be easy because you only have to go to one place to get it done ziprecruiter dot com slash verge. It's so effective. That four out of five employers who post recruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Here's ziprecruiter finds candidates. 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So so people often setting loving too critical thing for our existing. You know ground beef product team and I guess if you had to rank the things that we learned in our innovations that would still be on the top list but obviously that alone isn't me. It doesn't tell the problem. There's every every me from every animal contains human and in every case it's an important part of the flavor chemistry but they all taste different. And and the Texans are also different even from ground product ground ground beef and mafia and so forth. So what are the differences? Well okay concentration of lower pork. There are other differences in the flavor. Chemistry the chemistry is insane. Fundamentally it's all the same chemistry in different meads but the proportions of different molecules that participate in that. Chemistry vary from species to species particularly the in the fats. So that's a that's a difference. Then the texture is different. The people described part of Newton lead from animal in a million years. So I'm not the expert fossil. Be People who who who who are experts on you know the century experience but basically has sort of springer texture and more fatty outfielder and so forth. So they're a bunch of things that we needed to do differently for park or those. Just levers you pull and sort of production to get there is there. Is there a big chain needs to make? How does that actually work? What's the sort of mechanics of saying we're going to go after pork? No well it really depends on the on the product and I would say the chances are substantial enough that we can't just swap it in but on the other hand one of the things that we did early on because of the we knew to achieve our mission we need to have a production process. That was simple enough. Didn't require any highly customized equipment. You know basically be good. Plunge in food production equipment that was already produced enough scale and then like I say ingredients that were scale and so forth so the production process. uses equipment that sufficiently already widely available that for example most of our ground beef product production is is is being done by co-manufacture again. It's using equipment. That's mostly the same equipment that they use to produce ground beef from a cow so they're not the biggest producers of Conrad Ground Beef for the fast food market and our process was deliberately designed to be adaptable to existing scaled food production equipment so that that would be an obstacle to our few tar ability to scale. So when you decide we're going to go into the pork market. What were what were the steps before launch. What did he have to do well? We haven't watched that product commercially yet. That's that's something pending for later in the year. We did kind of a sneak preview at a CIS just to kind of show the world that this is coming. Get your orders in now. But what are the steps in launching it raw? Before we launch a product we first of all developing prototyping lab scale. Then we do test runs pilot scale then. We have to make sure that anytime. We make a change in ingredients or process or something like that. We have to make sure it doesn't affect shelf life so that's a long lifetime because obviously was shelf life to be many months which means it takes many months to make sure that you have many months shelf lives and then we have to make sure that the scaling principles that worked for ground beef worked for down part in terms of the physical forces in. There's when you go when you scale manufacturing of stuff there are complicated scaling rules that engineers know about and so forth. But you can't take it for granted so we do. Then we scale up to production scale. Make sure that that works. We do a lot of consumer testing to make sure that the product from the sensory perspective for consumers is delivering tar standards and so forth. So one thing. I want to ask you about that with the pork in particular. I feel like this wasn't as controversial on the B side but I've heard a lot of pork producers. Say Well you shouldn't be able to call the sport right in like now. The dairy industry is saying we shouldn't call nut milks milk. I know you're kind of passionate about this but the idea from the traditional agricultural suppliers that we shouldn't call plant based replacements for meet. Various kinds of meat is more prevalent than it. I think it used to be. How are you feeling about that? Well okay the reason. They feel threatened and weren't complaining before it is that for a mediator until impossible foods basically came along the products that were based products around. The market were sufficiently inferior from the perspective of meteors. That they were not meaningful threat. In fact I would just say that there was no such thing. Nothing that deserved to be called plant based meat was on the market. There were plant based products that were Veggie burgers and stuff like that but they were not legitimate pint base meet in the sense that A blinded consumer would recognize them as meat and and not only recognize them as meat but recognize him as a very delicious version of the mead. Once that happened the incumbent industry realized that there was an existential threat on their doorstep which we are and and we're coming through so that's why I think that there's been this huge uptick in Angst and sort of lobbying information from the industry. But here's the thing about naming. When digital cameras came along right it was common sense to still call them cameras. They didn't call him something new. It was just a better version of the perform. The same function only did a better job of it. As the previous technology we have done a lot of consumer research that basically tells us something incredibly important for this whole story which is that meat lovers. Viner's loving author meet. They're not going to be persuaded to eliminate it from their diet or even by large reduce consumption. There are going to keep eating it. They like it because it's delicious. They like it because a good source of protein in iron accessible affordable familiar blah blah blah blah blah. They don't like the way it's made and that's true across the board. It's virtually unanimous vote. Mediators is not part of the value proposition that your meat comes from the carcass of a dead animal. Okay with all the backstory to how it was produced with all the same sanitation problems in the mid system with all the public health issues and welfare issues. The environmental catastrophe meat lovers do not love that. Okay they they love their meat in spite of the way it's made not because of the way it's made well that means is that meat to meet consumer is defined by the sensory pleasures the nutritional value the cooking. Behavior that familiarity affordability. And the way it's made is something that they try to think about as little as possible. Okay so what that means. Is that for us to call our product. Mead who's actually just reflecting consumer perceptions I e if there's a food that tastes like meat that delivers the nutritional value of meat that has the versatility and and performance of meat than to a consumer. It's easily slots in his knee just like a digital camera slots in to the place previously occupied by film camera so we have no qualms about calling it meet because it is neat. It's just meet made a better way and frankly you know if it comes down to it. We're not worried about the whole naming issue. We could call. It can want as long as consumers you could find. It will be fine but it's much better For the consumers as long as we're us for us to put it in your salad alongside meat because the consumers that have the most to gain from it are people who are currently shopping for animal basement and like I said our research has shown US something. I it's incredibly important to understand. Which is that almost all meat lovers around the country and globally would prefer that there may be made without using animals and directly from plants. They would prefer that as long as it delivered the deliciousness. The protein iron the things that they value if you if you deliver that meat lovers would prefer to be made from plants and Corey of. That is that we would be doing ourselves a disservice. If we didn't boldly advertise that this product is made from plants. We want consumers. It's an are absolutely in our interest to make it perfectly clear to consumers that this product does not come from the corpse of a cow right. So you're not causing any confusion there. We don't want to cause confusion because it would cost us because we know that meat lovers would prefer that there may be made directly from plant as long as it delivers deliciousness. So this kind of this is a big of a question but go with me on it right now. You're in the business of Substitutes you're substituting for ground beef. You're a better product. Do you think it's better for the environment? You think it tastes just as good doing it with pork. You could make a novel meet right. Is that something you've thought about making something completely different than any other meat? That's currently on the market. Of course is that something right now you just want to take over substitutes and then make something new. It's something that's been on our mind. And obviously in the course of learning about the Flavor Chemistry and textures beat and so forth. We know quite a lot about the the difference between pork and beef and other meats from animals ser so to speak where you set the knobs with respect the flavored chemistry we can navigate that whole space we can create things that would be unmistakably. Leave Music Flavor and texture. But unlike anything that you've had before in that category because after all the choices of meat that are available in the world today are basically a historical artifact of the species that people were able to domesticate. You know ten thousand years ago. And they weren't chosen because they were the most delicious animals on Earth. They were chosen because they were capable of being domesticated. And that's what you get so yes. There's a lot of possibility for creating. Let's say flavors that would deliver a as meat butter on like anything on the market? Why haven't we done that because it gets back to our mission a sale to US has value from mission standpoint? Only if it comes at the expense of the sale of an animal drive product. Okay and the best way for us to kind of right now with our current state of you know a lot of people don't even know about us. Barely learning buys the simplest thing to do to make the maximize the chance that are sale cost of sale to the animal drive. Meat Industry is to very deliberately occupy the same niche. So that if you're shopping for meat you know we send a very clear signal that if you if you're thinking about buying ground beef you can buy this and get the same experience and so forth if you're thinking about buying a walker and that's what you have a craving for you can buy it impossible oppor- and you'll get that experience you want so in order to maximize the that part of our mission. Which is that. Our sales come the expense of the incumbent industry right now. It makes sense for us to make products that are easily recognizable as a one for one replacement for animal drive proxy but in the future. I think there's a lot of ways in which I think we can have a lot more fun than create diversity of flavors textures until fourth. But we don't want our sale. We don't want sales to be supplementary to existing Meat Sales. We want them to be at the expense of existing needs l. So that's the best idea. How close are you to making a rib eye? Steak to make short rib things like that. Which are traditionally harder for the plant pace vendors to make? Well I would say no when he's done it so traditionally harder as public understatement. It's definitely something we're working on. I would say in general when he talked about. How close are you? You don't know how close you are until you get there and then you can say how close you were. But you know it's a work. In progress there is still a lot of development underway. And there's no doubt in my mind that it's coming but we're we're not ready to put a date on the calendar. All right let me pull it out of the weeds a little bit. You've set a date fifteen years of the future for the big goal which is replacing domestic meat production. Where are you twenty five years from now? Oh that's a very interesting question. Let me get a bit into the full impact of the incumbent industry because it frames how we think about what happens next. Okay so I'll just say. The use of animals in the food system is not only a a major contributor ongoing greenhouse gas emissions. Every time you see smoke coming from the Amazon that's a direct reflection of the demand for me. You know that's a sad but it's by far for all practical purposes almost the only driver of absolute collapse in global biodiversity that we're in the late stages of right now so you may or may not know It's surprisingly not well known but There's been ongoing study for fifty years that Worldwildlife on the Zoloft cited London academic institutions have been doing where they take a census of off about ten thousand different animal species wild animal species around the world that are chosen to be kind of a representative sample of biodiversity. And what they reported in the past couple of years that the total number of living wild animals on earth is less than half considerably less than half what it was forty five years ago. Okay in fact it's about sixty percent less across the board. There's less than half as many mammals less than half as many birds left less than half as many reptiles less than half as many living amphibians fish across the board and the slopes just continuing down. And it's almost entirely due to the use of food system. It's overfishing for fish. Hunting is a very small factor. But you know small but significant factor for a transitional animals but overwhelmingly. It's habitat destruction degradation. Exactly what you're seeing right now In the Amazon and that's what's responsible for this catastrophic collapse gold biodiversity and it is probably more dangerous to our future than climate change right now because we depend on that biodiversity to maintain the ecosystems that make our planet livable. Okay and I don't mean little in the sense that you get to see giraffes I mean little in the sense that it functions in in all the ways that it supports life on earth. So that's something that people should be aware of the second thing about the land footprint of animal agriculture. Is that the best way in the world to do something that nobody's even talking about. They ought to be talking about but the more even hope on this is to turn back the clock on climate change to actually reduce atmospheric C O two levels. And there's a very well-proven documented way to do this. That's in our hands right now. Which is that if you could snap your fingers and the Hammill. Agriculture System vaporize right now atmospheric two levels would immediately start coming down because the land that's being used to support a meat production grazing end and feed crops is depleted of plant biomass relative. To what had been present. There are hundreds of years ago. Okay all you have to do is just walk anywhere. You see cattle grazing and then walk away from that place and see what the native plants looks like and it's vastly reduced same as true for feed crops which are annual crops in its bare dirt half the year. There's a vast deficit in biomass on that land. And if you get rid of the Animal. Agriculture system just the recovery of the native biomass land will carbon out of the atmosphere by photosynthesis. Faster than we're currently emitting so. That's a huge opportunity and I would say huge opportunity cost of our use of animals for food. So what does that mean for Our Future? After fifteen years when we have basically made it a viable business to be selling meat and fish mammals so the total of Orlando are required to meet. The world's proteins using plants is about half a percent. Okay meet the world's I should say to replace all the protein all meet in the world to about half a percent of course land area this year soybean crop on on point eight percent is land. Area has more than fifty percent access protein over all the meat consumed globally. Do you understand that? There's more protein in this year's crop by fifty percent then all the meat consumed globally. And it's going on twenty eight percent of land area so what that means is that you get rid of Animal Eric Culture. And it's not like oh now you have to grow plants on there and I had no. You actually have to grow fewer plants. You have to grow fewer crops because we use them so inefficiently produce animals. The value of agricultural land will collapse. Okay that's a good thing because what it means is there's no economic incentive. There's nothing there's no economic purpose to messing with that land and just left to its own devices. The ecosystems could start to recover but we WANNA do is actually be looking ahead to that and what are the opportunities to to you were. How can we use this opportunity presented by the removal of animal agriculture from this huge fraction of surface to best effect to restore biodiversity and and also polk carbonized atmosphere and? That's actually something you know. We're actively thinking about and I think that that's I would say in general if you can do something good for the world. There's a business proposition for making it. Sustainable. And so we're looking. We're looking into that and it's not because we want to be that we have to figure out a way to create economic incentives to use that opportunity in a way that's best for the future of the planet. So that's something that we're thinking of. I guess another thing is that point will be inventing all sorts of new flavors and textures of of meat and dairy products and so forth. And and you can live out your fantasy of eating source burger. Finally it's hard not to think I mean we started out by talking about the current a virus. But there's viruses are entering the human population through these markets in China where they're selling extremely strange forms of wildlife people. That seems like you could. You could lie and right into that if you wanted to. Yeah I think that you know. The problem is some of these things. There's not like a you know. A fluid global market in civic steaks. Or something like that. So it's hard for us to really have a near term impact on that but actually that's all straight so. I said the biggest impact of US families from food is habitat destruction degradation. There's a fraction of it. That's due to hunting and it's exactly that in terms of the impact on biodiversity is that there are a lot of Species whose numbers plummeted. Because they're they're sold in these markets and so forth Pangolins other one. You always hear about but fortunately China has banned the sale of wild animals for food affected. That will be But that'd be awesome if that takes so bad the last question I ask every. Ceo that comes on the show. is very small but I think very illuminating. It is. When do you work? When do you actually sit down and do your email and produce is an individual versus. Going TO MEETINGS. Talking to people like me on podcasts. When do you when do you work? How'd you manage that time I see okay? Well I would say I work in the morning before my meeting start. I work whenever I have. The infrequent breaks in my schedule increasingly infrequent. I should say and then I work when I get home and I work on the weekends and I would say pretty much between the things that I do. That are not actually directed work music and stuff like had and basically you know trying to go for run every day I would say probably and then you know brushing my teeth and showing food mouth and stuff like that. I would say probably ninety percent of my negotiable time waking hours either thinking about studying doing research avowed or writing about doing things basically related to our business completely all in all this. I feel like you know when I committed to doing this. I just felt like it's pretty much true apartment just keeping myself from going completely insane by running into other kind of survival things. The best use of any minute of my life is doing whatever I can do. That moves us forward and because of that. I don't feel like it's an all burden I love it. I felt it gets an opportunity. It's not turnkey I mean. Sometimes you know there's Shitload of craziness going on. I'll be worn out by and so forth but I really the stuff I'm doing I feel like it's exactly what I want to be doing that minute. So it's a very large fraction of any interstitial time. I'm doing something. There's a lot of aspects of this business where you know you just have to deal with stuff immediately comes up and it means there's a limited extent to which you can actually carve out those times. It really protect them. I have a great assistant who is like wrong. Classic doing that Vote Yeah. She's right behind. Timely there speaking of which being increasingly obvious that your time with us has run out so pat. Thank you so much for joining us. We'll talk to you soon. Okay tell me about that. All right my thanks to Patrick Brown. Co impossible foods. That was great conversation. I'm very interested in Brontosaurus Burger. That's something I want. We'll be back next week with the interview. Show on Tuesday chatshow Friday. We're GONNA keep powering through this work from home situation. Let me know how it sounding. We're continuously trying to make it sound better even though we're not in the studio so let me know how that's going. Let me know. He want me to talk to L. Tell you this podcast sense right now. Everyone's kind of available so let me know. I'm inch I'm interested in it. It's easier to book people than you might think right now because people have the time so I'm reckless. Love your feedback. We'll talk to you soon. If there was a spreadable Cookeville Bay Kabul plant faced butter. That was better for your body and the planet. What would you make with butter? Cookies Butter Pie. That's the thing by the way whatever it is country crock plant butter makes it happen and bakes delicious country Crock. Plant butter is so tasty. Even butter lovers love it. You can use it as a one to one substitute for dairy butter. All of your favorite recipes and enjoy it knowing it has twenty five percent less saturated fat than regular old dairy butter to try it for yourself. Use The store locator at country CROCK DOT com slash plant dash butter today.

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#15: Hacking Crackdowns, Houseparty Smackdowns, Hamburger Showdowns

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37:18 min | 1 year ago

#15: Hacking Crackdowns, Houseparty Smackdowns, Hamburger Showdowns

"Discover Milan Italy with WSJ magazine and into Garay. Join WSJ magazine editors for behind the scenes access in Milan. As you meet the city's most influential tastes makers dine at top restaurants. Visit the private villas of late coamo and much more book. This once in a lifetime trip at Indy. Gory dot com slash WSJ magazine or call six four six seven eight zero eight three eight three. Wall Street Journal. This is instant message. I'm David Pierce. This week on the show. We're going to talk about social media app. That's doing basically the exact opposite of Facebook real-time face to face actual human conversation. Now, all it has to do is prove you can make money doing that which is harder than it. Sounds later on you're going to get to listen to me eating a non beef burger watch outing with impossible food. Ceo, Pat Brown about absolutely demolishing cows a science competition, and Christopher mims has a ridiculous looking genuinely useful gadget, you're gonna wanna have around. But I one of us got hacked over the last couple of weeks over and over and over again all in the name of journalism, frankly, I'm worried about her. So here's me now as always join us turn in New York, unless she got hacked out of this and Christopher mims somewhere has always wear. Are you Christopher today? I'm coming to you from inside the building I can look at your face rate. Did you see this addict? So he would feel comfortable there. This is such a drab. We're actually feels exactly like in men's car again, just like last. Yeah. There's a plant and three two other microphones there's three microphones in this room. It's perfect. But I'm all alone. I also listened to the podcast last week. And I think it's better without me. So maybe that's why I'm here. All I won't even disagree. So we let's just jump in here. So Joanna you just decided a while ago in the name of a column you were going to get yourself hacked, just two pieces of. Yeah. Honed the technical owned. How do you spell it? Did I get dot com slash Joanna. Just as yes sword. Basically. My best advice is just everyone goaded to did you get and that's the end of end of it. So, you know, it's a really weird how I got to doing this story really just started with someone gave me a free web Cam cover, and I've been seen webcam covers everywhere. And I'm like do I need this like do we need this? And I I want to write a piece about webcam covers, and we'll send our editor was like that's not really a piece, and I was like yes, it is. This is what's going on? There's PC manufacturers that are building in Kim. Switches for webcams like everyone's super worried about webcams. So it was like all right. I'm gonna start doing this story. And then when I started talking to security experts. It's like, yeah. It's super easy to get into a webcam. And I was like is it, and so I went through the process of working with a security expert. His name is Alex Zander hide and he works at security scorecard, which is a corporate security firm. And he was like, yeah. I'll try to get into your webcams. Yeah. No problem. A couple of weeks later like wasn't as easy as just no problem. And you know, there's a lot of things kind of along the way would have blocked him from getting into the webcam. So I was a very willing participant in the hacks, and I sort of disabled security settings along the way, I I did lots of stupid things that I don't think many people would do. But I think some of the things I had to let him into my systems. People would do right. Like, sometimes you disable a security setting in MAC because you want to download an app or sometimes you override a security setting in Microsoft Office because you want to open a document sometimes you click a link because you think it's going to be a great link and. So yeah, you know, alternately, I'm putting a webcam cover on my webcam still. So you and Mark Zuckerberg? Yeah. You know, by the way, I should say like that was one of the things like everyone's Mark Zuckerberg has when we should all have it. Facebook would not comment on if that's Mark zuckerberg's webcam cover coarsely. So okay. But I want to know more about what you had to do in order to let this stuff because if you like the thing that we've learned over and over about hacking is that so much of it depends on you doing dumb things. Yeah. The humans, always totally. But the but the bar for dumb things is really low like I've done things that I'm sure have made me more vulnerable, and there's and there's all these reasons for so let me talk I did three devices one was technically not a hack. It was just, you know, poor password hygiene, but we did three devices one was my windows, laptop or windows laptop. I bought I bought new laptops for all of these things because I didn't want my info to be on the systems or my personal info to be on the systems and Dow Jones did not want me to hack into their computers make sense. So we use a windows ten HP laptop. We used a MAC book air two thousand fifteen macbook air all running the latest operating system. And I bought an IP webcam off of Amazon. I think let's let's go through the windows system hack because that is the most common cause windows is used by millions and billions of jillions of people. So it's a very likely target for a hacker. Would I had to do? There was I and so he did sort of a spear phishing, social, engineering ruse and it actually worked out really. Well, he crafted this great story. I'm going to apply for this job that you're actually hiring for hiring for video producer right now. If anyone is interested in being a video producer for me, please ply. But if you're hacker, please don't apply he sent me a link tour he sent me an attachment with a resume document, and he sent me a link to a video real in one Email for him to carry out the hack I to do a couple of things again playing along. I had to open that document. No big deal. It was an encrypted document. So Gina didn't necessarily scan. It. I did get warnings along the way about that opened this encrypted encrypted document. And then I had to in this case, which I think would have been a real which. Wouldn't have allowed the hack to carry out. I had to also click on the video real. So that's two steps on the user part that would have made things pretty tough on top of that antivirus stopped the hack there. It was basically like this looks like a malicious file we're not letting you download it. So I did disable antivirus, which, you know, some people don't run antivirus on windows. That's a really dumb thing. But some people don't do it. Yeah. Those were about all the steps that it took for him to get in. And then within like really five to ten minutes. He was taking photos of me. So what's interesting about that is a that's a lot of things. But be none of those is sort of outrageous and something you it's like death by a thousand cuts, right? And and like, I say in the article, and I say in the video like he was using this. I mean, he's a hacker. He's he's a security expert. He works with companies to help protect them. But in for this piece. Right. He was like I'm going to help you with these off the shelf hacking, tools, like lots of people have access to them. He is like I can just Google this. And he put together some tools, he obviously knows code really. Well, got right. You know, he he was able to put these tools together, really fast. His. Arguments. Like, I was using off the shelf tools if I had really put some time and energy into this. This would have been a lot more covert. You wouldn't have probably known or you wouldn't have had to take all of these steps. But I agree with you. I mean, that's kind of the point of my piece, which is look I had to go through a lot of these steps. But if you reverse engineer that you can really see how these things are so important right in one way that you were extra secure was you were using non were sheen. So your laptop essentially was air gapped, my understanding of how a lot of this works is you know, you send these spear phishing emails two thousand people in the company one of them takes the bait. Then you're in the network, then you can access whatever you want. Exactly. And that's what he taught, and that's how he got into the IP web IP camera again, like this was I really started this as a journey to find out about webcam hacking, how likely is it? Why are we all putting these things on here? I mean, she'll be really be worried about people seeing us like I mean, I would say ninety five percent of the time. I'm sitting at my computer eating or picking my nose. I don't you know, one of those things not doing those simultaneous. I'm not yet. Well, may maybe that's how I got there. So I asked him specifically like let's go after the webcams, right? I also, you know, there's been a lot of reports right now about nest cameras not being secure enough. And really that turns out just that's a big story about people using the same passwords everywhere. He did try like he he did try to get into my Ness camera. He was unsuccessful. He he had a big database of you know, whatever the millions of breaches that have been happening over the last couple of years. He put in my personal Email address. He did come up with a couple of passwords, but they were all old. I don't use them anymore. But you easily see how people are getting into nest cameras these days, and this is one of the things I I wondered when I heard you doing this stories or we're going to get to the end of this, and it's just gonna be well don't be an idiot, but you're an idiot. So it's hopeless. That's basically the story even though but the word idiot or stupid has had to be removed from the peace and being and being charitable. About humans being idiot. So couple nights ago. I was having happened to be having dinner with somebody who runs a company that uses a I do a dentist spearfishing. And he's like look humans can't be too hard on ourselves. We have close to two hundred cognitive bias sees that you know, when we're moving quickly we make mistakes. And so a lot of what he's trying to do is recognize the mistakes that humans most commonly make and flag them, right? That's why your antivirus software, flagged it for you. That's why g mail says watch out for this. Attachment is all about trying to automate total the pave over the years that would otherwise. But then you put that against our sort of human desire to just click away from everything as fast as possible. Yeah. And this was something really interesting. That's that happened with the MAC. So we went through Iraq was also pretty complicated. Lots of steps along the way that that would have, you know, I think triggered to someone or really made somebody realize something's going on here. But you never know again, like we all do stupid things, and, you know, again, whatever's at the end of that tunnel that you really want you might really want to open that resume you might do it. Right. But one thing that apple is built. Into Mojave is or the latest version of the operating system is an alert just like you'd get on your iphone if Abbas trying to access the camera. It will let you know. And he he got into the the MAC system. He had a lot of access to do things. He was able to like take screen shots at my computer. He was sending me screen shots of my inbox. He was able to change my desktop background. He was launching a different windows. What have you? What did he he played like? Oh, yeah. He Rick rolled me. That was that was fun. And then I got this alert that said like terminal wants access to your camera had I not seen any other like signs that I was being hacked, right? He was playing around with me. So I knew I was willing. I was in on this. Right. But had I seen terminal wants access to your camera. I definitely would have been like that's weird. But you have to click. Okay. And it sort of thought like most people are going to be shocked by this. But we're so used to clicking. Okay. At this point, wouldn't they like indoors? Origins that someone may be like, oh, that's weird. Maybe some, you know, maybe it needs it for something. Okay. And also, don't forget, the the world is full of legacy windows systems that either aren't updated or in some cases as I discovered I reported on this can't the updated. So imagine there's some old windows XP system that is literally running your H back system. And you cannot upgrade it because it will break your age fact system, we this is a real thing. And so this is why you get so many hospitals getting locked out of their systems and his white ransomware works, and let's not forget also that or the two hacking groups fancy bear and the other one. I mean, we had a massive theft of, you know, DNC emails in whatever it was twenty two thousand sixteen that went to WikiLeaks from Russia because they're Sisson men was frankly, a moron FBI called him up. And he apparently he hung up on the FBI didn't believe it was them. No. And like, it's all of these things all times. Choose to be skeptical. Really weird one. But no all of these things mean that I mean, there's so many tips along the way and as as frustrating as it was that there was so many steps for me to go through. I think it was you know, like, I've said it a joked a couple of times and even told Alex like if you had been a little bit better at hacking here, it would have been possibly a better story. But I'm not sure I would have gotten as much out of it as I did in terms of what I need to tell readers to do or what I need to do. I mean, frankly, when I went to his office, and he was like, okay. Let's try the Ness Cam. Let's let me see if I can find a password. You know, he pulled up this old password knows like I remembered it was out there. But I didn't fully remember it was out there. And like just seeing that password on his screen like, you know, I went home, and I started changing all the passwords, and I started making sure to factor was turned on on things that I didn't even know to factor was available on at this point. I hope it's helpful for people. It's don't don't try to get yourself hacked. It's too two factor now is much less secure than when I gave away my Twitter password for. Years ago and just said try to act me now you can. But I wonder join a is this all just password hygiene, the I mean security updates was a big one. I also, you know, I've never as as complicated as the MAC hack was right. I needed to download and I didn't wanna go through it. Here's the number of series. Everyone should read the article and watch the video, but it was a series of steps. Right. I had to get open office. That was what the expert was being using doing all this stuff. But you know, you you think is a MAC user. Oh, I'm max don't get viruses. Max don't have now where I'm safe for me. The biggest takeaway there was that. I wanted added protection on my MAC, and you know, I think apple does a lot to protect security. But you know, the fact that the that many developers don't have their apps in the map store, you do loosen security there. You know, I've always clicked on in the in security and settings the setting that lets you override downloading apps from the internet. You know, that's one big thing that did that would have like gotten in my face. Before downloading open officer Lieber office, but I would have had that disabled anyway, because I have always just, you know, there's not all the apps I need in the map store. I I sometimes download stuff from the internet. Guess what? Most people do. So there's there's vulnerability in MAC, and I think that was a big big takeaway for me. And how we started this conversation. Like, oh, well, we don't want to be stupid like most people aren't stupid were smart, it, you know, you sort of you get pretty humble, you're like I could do that. I could see how someone would, you know, be convinced to take those steps are. I'm sitting here saying my webcam, I think the web they comes back down to that. Like, I put the webcam cover on because it was like I had this free thing there nine dollars. You can put a post it note on you can get a sticker or whatever. But like it just felt like at least this is the one thing I know that I can make sure they don't get access to like the password sound like, yeah. If you're in my system, you're probably going to get my passwords or you're going to key. Log me or you're going to get some other info from my system. But like this is one. Control. I do have some. I'm putting on the webcam cover has my credit card information. But you cannot see me picking my nose. That's right. You use the app house party? Yeah. You actually do. I don't use it because I'm. Like, why would I when I wrote about it? I house partied with some deans. Right. Yeah. Because because you're not for journalism. That's just and know anyone who hasn't used house party. Here's what it is. It's a group video chat app with a twist, basically when you log in all your friends on house party, get a notification, saying your online and ready to hang anyone can tap on the notification and just jump into a room and start hanging out with you. It's kind of like having office hours, but for your real friends anyway house pretty is a popular interesting app, especially among younger people wants to be more human more, fun, less stealing of your personal private information and selling it to sell you. And it's going through to get there. I think actually says a lot about what it takes to build a business that doesn't rely on invading your privacy. Betsy Morris one of our reporters out here in San Francisco wrote a great piece for the journal about house party. And I wanna talk about it. So let me go get Betsy China have you ever house partied? We did a piece in video on house party. Like, oh, we had these kids, and that's how I didn't really use it. But I watched them use it. They were they were talking that. Parents were we had the parents come in. And they talked about how they were using house party with their kids to like get. Their attention. That's funny Bessie. Hi, david. So okay. So I I want to kind of turn this over mostly to you and Christopher because you guys have both written about house party. But companies made a big deal out of not being like Facebook. Yeah. What that means is for house party. They don't have to accumulate tons and tons of users, but they have to do like fortnight does is to get a lot of people very engaged spending tons and tons of time on their app. So that they can sell them experiences or games instead of advertising to them. Dial and all the salaries last year on pickaxes it said. Revenue model is micro transactions to sell little things skins pickaxes, as you know, that's really interesting because it feels like house party could be the the logical successor to Facebook. If they wanted to be they're not I mean, partly because they've always said they wanted to attract communities of real friends. They don't they don't want their users to be in the race to accumulate lots of followers likes. So that sounds a lot like Mark zuckerberg's. He calls it time. Well, spent you know, what's really interesting is this book was really stocking them trying to figure out what they're heat is success was with their users and trends, the trends since then have been toward with with young people as have been toward smaller communities and kids wanting to spend talk to each other on online as opposed to in person. So us party. Kind of nailed nailed the trends. Anyway, in some parts it like kind of feels like Facebook the early days when they launched the would've was an app store, or like, these these add-ons that you could you could play farmville with your friend on Facebook like sort of feels like some of Facebook's early shared activities like shared activities like they tried to become this platform for things to be built on top of them. Of course, like Facebook did become an underlying platform for the internet. But I I would say these sort of pop up at apps and games sort of existed in silos, and you didn't need Facebook as the connective tissue between people. Yeah. The real question for house party, whether they can make a business model out of this. You know are the kids are teased in adolescence going to spend enough money on games, you know, and other experiences to be able to sustain them. And or are they going to be able to attract, you know, a wider demographic, you have a sense that house. Wants to attract other users know, they're not saying that. But I think so I mean, I think that's the partnership with Ellen Degeneres. You know, obviously, she appeals to a an older demographic. What is this partnership? I just go hang out with Ellen Degeneres. Is that you know, but you can play heads up the game that cheap plays on her show. And you know, I can play with her. No, you can watch her play it on her show. Sorry that that is so appealing. Yeah. I'm back to business model. Here we go. We have older people who are watching Ellen or seeing her on YouTube, or, you know, watch watch her play it on house party because she's promoting it on house. And it's is there a payment now for this. Like, if if you go on house party can you pay to play with Allen or watch Ellen? She's promoting it on her show periodically. She's going to be playing it in house party on her show. I now all right. I motion. Do you? See what I yes across. Yes. So house party just decided to like announces Raza deal with L N to let everyone know you can now play heads up there. Charging now to play heads up through house party. Like you hit hitter threshold, you get some free games, and then you can end up playing and you use this as the platform to. Friends. I gotta see I could totally picture, right? Older people using. I mean, honestly, I could picture my dear mother really being into house party because the whole idea is like, you you you log in and if people in your group are present, then you talk to them, you know, like so I could picture will using it to connect with are Martin. That's right. Chris. We haven't talked about your mom on the podcasts. And actually I would like to say that next week special. Guests should be your mother. I also could see my we should just have a podcast and other Shiva podcast with moms. Our moms should hang out in house party. And then they Ellen's if things if they have they have common interests people do just want to hang out. Yeah. Like do. They cook you they work out in their living rooms, my mom, which is your monks. I mean got together they would talk about what it's like to have children. That are tech columnists obvious. Right. All right. We should move on Betsy. I thank you for being here. Before we get to Pat Brown and impossible foods mims, I want you to tell the people about the bluetooth headset. You made me by yesterday. I'm very excited about it using very excited about it. Tell the people I'm the world's biggest fan of crap bluetooth headphones. Like, I'm like a connoisseur like a Muckraker for awful, Chinese-made, blue cheese headsets. But no a lot of them are not awful. So I have used air pods. I prefer to have noise canceling over the ear headphones from China and little ear buds from China. And when I want to do calls and everybody has to do 'cause I got I got my twenty dollar 'em, pow pro trucker headset. It's advertised specifically to truckers honestly, L even use it on calls in my car because how how often do you have a satisfying experience in your car? The main thing that this does is it's got one ear, bud. And it has a little noise cancelling microphone, and it's a miracle years microphone Britney Spears microphone, and it is a miracle to me how well it works. You just slap it on turn it on. Connects like today's is due. And then you have the best call experience of your life. Totally ends free way better than air pods better than messing around with anything that has a cable, and you should just be shameless about looking like a telemarketer when you wear it. I feel for anyone who is like if you're the monster. Who is the one who has all the background noise on the calls all the time. That's right. Yes. I can have calls in coffee shops. And nobody's asking me. What's in the background? And we're all in noisy environments, all the time. I I use this thing when I'm walking my dog. And there's no traffic noise. I can have conversations with people mine is actually I think tomorrow on the so excited to hear what you think of it. Yeah. I'm just gonna use it on this podcast. But that's how I do this. But I guess, okay. Coming up in just a sec my interview with Pat Brown, the CEO and founder of impossible foods. A few weeks ago, one of the buzzy est moments of the show happened outside of the convention center. And it didn't involve any gadgets. It was at a restaurant called the border grill and the food being served to all the reporters in industry pros milling around actually was the main event the event was the launch of the impossible burger to point out a new version of the all plant meat replacement that impossible has been selling for a couple of years in high end restaurants all over the country. We ate tacos burgers Tartari. An episode is all made of impossible's new recipe with no meat anywhere. Honestly, it was delicious. I kind of haven't been able to get this off of my mind or all the things impossible foods CEO, Pat, Brown said about what technology can do to make our meat better. And maybe save the world in the process. So last week, I went to the company's headquarters in Redwood City, California and sat down with Pat to talk. But I the kind folks that impossible made me burger it was delicious. I mean, it tasted like a burger. And if you've ever had a veggie burger, you know, not all burgers tastes like burgers. So impossible's in an interesting spot right now with this new recipe, the company's getting ready to sell its product in grocery stores for a price that it says won't be much higher than the ground truck. You're used to its in more restaurants all the time too. And it's still working on getting FDA approval. But the agency said essentially that while impossible's food wasn't necessarily unsafe the company hasn't sufficiently proved it was so that's still in process. But before we got to talking about all of that, Pat. And I put our burgers down and started at the beginning. I wanted to know what are you? Having is meet why is the goal of impossible foods to totally crush the meat industry. Forever. What's not to rid the world of meat? It's it's to eliminate the catastrophic environmental damage caused by the use of animals food technology. Okay. So. What we're trying to do. And we don't want the world of meat. We'd be the most hated company in history. If we drew the world what we have to do in, and basically because people want meat in there, Arkansas money Meech. So what we have to do is to find a way to satisfy the demand that's going to continue to exist without using this incredibly destructive technology that we're using today. Okay. So, but in that van you could have, you know, come up with new farming techniques or worked on a really great like vegan smoothie that. Everybody would like. But you picked you picked this. Like, why why did this impossible approach makes sense to you? You eat meat, right? Okay. What if I said, hey, listen, we got a solution for you. Instead of that meat that you're finding eat. Here's a vegan smoothie. Is that kind of work? It's the way we we do this. We have to be very strategic. We have to eliminate the demand that drives the continued use of animals in the food system. We felt like the very best thing to do is to take things that they know they want and make a version of those meets say that outperforms the cow version in the ways that people in in in in the traits that people want from burger setting, and that means deliciousness juicy nece convenience and versatility in the kitchen nutritional profile, affordability and so forth. Okay. That's one of the things that I think is really interesting about what you I would assume how to do at the beginning, which is basically take meat and sort of break it down to its component not like the chemicals of it. And the but also the the features like what it is about me that people like like what does that? How do you? Do. We wasn't by trying to get into. People's heads. And and kind of parse out what are the characteristics of meat that they like the initially what we set out to do is to understand how meat works understand how meat from animal works as a food. Okay. A part of the most important part of that is that meat behaves. Unlike any plant when you cook it, okay? So if you cook any pint base product, it basically will get warmer, and it may get crispier on the outside or or mushir. If it's broccoli or something like that. But no magic happens. Right. When you cook meat something magical happens which is that in that short period of cooking. It produces D-I-N-O-V-I-T-E. Oh, this incredibly complex, aroma and a flavor and. That's because there is a catalyst in meat that is present at Vassar concentration plans, not a an unuseful concentration plants that catalyze is this zoo of chemical reactions that transform simple nutrients that are present in the raw meat. They're the same simple nutrients by large found in plant cells. But if you just take tasted those on their own, they're just very nondescript in mildly savory, but nothing like meet you throw in this catalyst and bang. You. These reactions occur that transform those nutrients into this hundreds of of volatile compounds and flavor compounds that are the flavor in Rome of meat, so we had the hypothesis that the catalyst team he missed the molecule that carries oxygen in your blood, and it's required for life for every song on earth, even plant cells. It's what makes your blood red and what makes meat red or pink. But it's also an amazing catalyst. It's one of the one of the best catalysts, you know, that naturally occurs. And so as suspect number one, and nobody else figure this out before amazingly, no one had figured it out. I mean when we figured it out, we search through all the scientific literature. We searched to all the text on Google search through all the patent literature, and so forth Nata, so which was good for us because we were able to get very broad patents on on the use of hime to create. You know, meet flavors and aromas and stuff like that. And then now that was you started the company seven years ago is that right? Two thousand seven okay. So and then fast forward to now. And you have the impossible burger two point. Oh, which I think is I've never heard two point oh applied to a food item. Before I quite like that. Where do you feel like you are in the process of getting to sort of fully replacing what makes meet great? Okay. Maybe answering the wrong question but armies to completely replace animals in the food system by twenty thirty five. And to do it. Not by a hostile takeover. But basically by very diligently, making healthy, delicious foods that consumers prefer to all the foods that they get from animals and thereby eliminating the market that that sustains this industry that is actually pushing, you know, the global environment to the edge of catastrophe, and we're already like ninety percent of the way there. So that's our mission. And and so kind of weirdly the solution to the grace environmental problem that. Humanities over faced is to make great burgers. Like that. So okay. So you're once you get to this point. And I mean having eaten half of this burger now, I feel like if you're not all the way there you're very close to like I could eat this instead of a burger and be just as satisfied. Excellent idea. Yeah. Exactly. But you're going to be in a really interesting position where you can start to say you can start to make things that don't taste like other kinds of meat like if 2035 you've solved this problem. And you know, the the world is terrific. And everybody's eating impossible meets is is the goal. Still going to be to be as much like beef as possible. Well, no the goal. The goal was never to be as much like beef as possible. And in fact, that's one of our we have a critical advantage over the cow. Okay. Which is the cow. You can only make meet one way and terrible. It's not very good at it. It's not terrible science. Exactly, they're just they're not very introspective and. And they're terrible at making meat. That's that's the Iran. They're just the best technology we've ever had. But there are terrible technology for making meet incredibly inefficient. That's why they're so environmentally destructive. And we don't have those limitations. That's like are decisive advantage. Why I know with complete confidence that despite how crazy ambitious our our goal sounds that we're going to do it. And it's the same reason that you know, on on the day that the first commercial, motorized transportation this. Locomotive raced a horse and barely lost. If you're smart. You basically said I'm never going to bet on the horse again because horse was not going to get any faster. And now you have a new approach a new technology for transportation that's vastly improve -able on every every access that matters. And we're in that position because we get to choose the flavor we get to choose the texture on the day that we have a burger or a steak that's as good as the best one you've ever had from cow. We're already working on something even better and cows not doing that. So does that mean, you get to a point where you'll actually be able to make an sell things that have sort of no corollary in the animal kingdom, where you're you're able to invent wholly new things that absolutely. Yeah. That's the thing is that, you know, this is this tastes like meat from a cow because we deliberately chose to make it taste that way. We know how to make you know, chicken flavor. Pork flavor even fish flavor, which we figured out we figured out the mechanism behind fish flavor to. I mean, we were scre studying a lot of this stuff. So it may be there's no reason why the the animals that that are commonly consumed today are the most delicious or best. They just happen to be easily, domesticated, basically. And you know, it may turn out that you know, pterodactyl was was really the the meat that everyone would prefer. Menu and fast what people want and we'll come up with it. I mean, we can do, you know? In other words, we can dial in the flavor. Profile ostrich one time, it was delicious real something to look after. I'm sure the all star. Probably fair soap the pushback I hear from people on impossible as like, well, it's not natural. So it can't possibly be as good for you. Like, how do you? How do you work in that system where we have this long understanding of what meat is and how it's regulated? And there's two aspects to that. There's there's the it's not natural aspect, which which is to me just such a kind of a weird misunderstanding of the whole history of food that you know, the things that we eat as food today. We eat because of many thousands of years of research and discovery that humans have been doing, you know, throughout history and prehistory. Trying various parts of various plans and various animals figuring out which ones won't kill you. Which ones are. Delicious. How to combine them to make something that's even more delicious nutritious in some of the parts how to how to cook them how to whatever marinate them. They've taken ingredients from nature that are the product of thousands of years of research to figure out which ingredients are the ones to choose and how to combine them, and that research is still going on every time chef comes up with a really new dish. I mean, they have figured out there trying to figure out how to take ingredients from nature, very carefully selected and combine them and process them in a way that makes something, you know, new and delicious, right? That's what we're doing. We're taking ingredients from nature and figuring out how to combine them in a way to make something new in delicious. We use the tools that we can use our in our laboratory to do the same thing humans. We're doing thousands of years ago, but more efficient. Which is to help figure out what ingredients to use an how best to combine them to produce something delicious. That's the research part, we produce it an factory that basically used to be a bakery and is very much like one right now. And you saw the ingredients get mixed right watching her just stirred up in front of simple ingredients. Simple ingredients. All of them founded nature put in a mixing bowl and stirred. And you have a food. So that is not very exotic. That's not a lab thing. I mean, literally, we we've even thought about at some point selling to consumers just the kit of here are the ingredients that we use to make our product take him to your house and make your own and it would be just like making a brownie. I mean, no more ingredients. And and and really nothing more exotic. If you want to try impossible's new recipe look out for it soon. And he also teased that they may have figured out some things about how to make cheese so keep an eye out. Anyway, that's show. Everybody thinks to Pat Betsy Joanna and Christopher for being here. Thanks to tiny Lucius, our producer. And thank you for listening. We have new episodes on Fridays. So make sure you subscribe to instant message on whatever podcast app you use for even on. Spotify is switching to that one. As always if you have feedback or ideas, Email us at personal tech at wsJcom. We'll talk to you soon.

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America Isn't Getting It's Grits w/ Pat Brown Part 1

Rantin' and Ravin'

40:12 min | 11 months ago

America Isn't Getting It's Grits w/ Pat Brown Part 1

"Toil Way Hot This is a stand up New York labs production providing you podcast since twenty thirteen I don't like Jimbo's at all I think it's horrific hamburger hamburger hamburger that's the only thing I would buy from a Burger Joint L. from Uber I have a restaurant that I constantly order from in Harlem called JIMBO'S I don't mind the people know that I order from Jimbo's how specifically talked about Jimbo's remember when I told you I wanNA breakfast and remember when we went on that walk and then we walk past Jimbo's and I was like Oh burn before straight did you did you did you have you call her yet she texted me for the day so I self am I guess because we just we been going on and on and on for like an hour and a half hour thirty minutes is just it's too much I ordered some breakfast today somewhat of a heartfelt episode today with Pat we have the luxury of having pat does episodes an episode that you here next week which will be prerecorded because I will be important do is go there and be performing and find myself zipped up in a bag he's that but the choice I love Jimbo's he was like oh I've sat in Jimbo's I love Jimbo's to added you absolutely not have not have that if that conversation we episode will be thirty minutes so I'm sorry for the shorter episodes but to conserve my own mental space we have to keep some of these episodes to thirty minutes for me. Where'd you meet this person online but that went fairly well we'll see I mean not reading too much into it yet just enjoying the moment as it is a man that has been I'm also here with Matt you guys know mad have tried to date Matt we haven't successfully gotten off the ground but we will trust me map before the end of the year we will get sexy thank you and welcome everybody to rant and rave with Yemeni and friends I am here with the one the only Pat Brown you guys love her so you and I have talked about Jimbo we have yes we left with that on my Daddy Cohen Danny's watching high any you pat you and sponsor I called them because the guy dropped my order off I ordered the breakfast platter that comes with Grits that's why I love Jimbo's 'cause I I love some grits and you can get grits and a lot of places so I had the grants it comes with scrambled eggs unattached right we tend to run at one point single for almost exactly a year now had an interesting day yesterday I eight we'll see where it goes wasn't feeling any chemistry I've gotten that text so many times when I saw her text it was playful I'm like thank God yes well later Leonard met I doug them in gold or whatever they were behind the bronze them and put them in the windshield I got you know all schools listening and watching how chewy hi everybody on live who is participating okay so real quick I'm GonNa do Iran and we're GONNA get into the episode this week's episode about a woman texting you right after the day instead of letting you I I was sitting there spinning like self conscious I know I'm going to get the text just saying like I it was fun meeting you nobody knows that city not people that had born with shoes the specifically right beside it is Jimbo's a hamburgers but they have that in the name Oh but anyway I like Jimbo so I went to I called Uber eats who is not a sponsor probably to this rant will never be in Texas chicken and ask for their their meatloaf special no first of all hi guys hello everybody I've been requested I say this the guy dropped my order off now when he dropped my order off I picked up the bag I was like this don't feel right but you know you expect arrest arrested him girls that have seen that and their interest you were saying that no we're trying to find a girlfriend hyphen wow jelly who's gonNA walk off like I I start my now starting my day off with heavy stuff yeah and her brother owned a restaurant in Harlem I think we spoke about this it was around the corner but they finally sold it and they is here we go is some old black hillbilly that's why nobody nowhere whip web billy he only had one bag in his hand you are there so much you know how much way the weight is off I scrambled eggs grits and it comes with Bacon and then I got an exercise of baking 'cause they go cheap on the Bacon because only eight ninety five so you know they're gonNA put like half a strip in there like a week they called me one time wasn't Jimbo's what was a place years ago like when I was still doing grub and they they were like oh you're jake yeah I would don't be this fat but anyway so the order was wrong so I I'd send you know these places Eh I had I forget the name of this place that was in Harlem but I used to order from there so much with forgive me the young he watches he watches sometimes she's a follows me this episode is going to be specifically pat bringing all the humor today I cannot keep up with her I know the difference between two platter plates Honda Poop the Connor and who took inter and I'm praying pray for me 'cause you know Dr has had his situations in the last thing I need in one platter plate because they wrap the side of Bacon up in aluminum foil that's fin thing and then the plant should be played so this felt heavy if they'll bulky adam they had they also had great but they like macaroni and cheese that was really great and they had like baked chicken was amazing was it on Adam Clayton no ladies hurry up locked him down a little tender Roni but we have to see I just WanNa do a ramp before we get into a very I guess we'll be I have you know I was born with a pair of shoes and I got my shoes dunk when he would dunk the kids shoes and put backlit make you fish for the rest of it so I ordered another little like it comes with two or three strips in the side ordering begum and I ordered an English it was on fifth fifth year the other way and it was a system brother ran the place and days call me when my order didn't look right with them Paul but it was a Veggie Omelette and ahead grits in it which cheese on top which I was like oh they re Vegan out there watching face it was up vegetarian vegan vegetarian it eight hundred two five three nine three seven seven for Uber eats one eight hundred two five three nine three seven seven now I sit two messages I didn't understand where it comes from but I understand like there was drinking and I was like Oh maybe they just gave me a drink and they know order from them all the time because there was so much eats is never going to sponsor me let me just give you all their number real damn quick so y'all could call them anytime y'all need the number hold on they require you when you're talking about your order to take a picture of it so they don't they don't want people fuck around and say oh I got the wrong thing how would they customer service they're getting to a place where you can't call them they don't want your harassment but they they don't fucked up in the process got nowhere to go so I had to go online to find the number for Uber Eats I've called it before so one line search for the number just just so we above war because I know Uber they didn't get the wrong thing so it took an order it was a Vegan Omelette or something like that I don't even know what it said watch out face you are embarrassed anything she's biased towards anything that is against me being right so pat will like facts facts coupon now I want this is called was I right or was I wrong and you guys can weigh in who are watching live once on bears is off fat bitch that has somebody recognized me by my order not by my work material you have you order a bottle of Ambien I didn't put me to sleep well that's heavy car right there well always GonNa hold you up that's the problem so I call and you know the things so finally I call and it's like they go through this little customer service ease that gets on my nerves wrong my entire order is wrong I have must have somebody else's order this is nothing that I ordered is in this order is that we got tired it'd be like Oh this is my fake name and then this is my my real name so they will know who it was so when she came on set she was like Oh my God I was so glad to meet you to which she then asked me so are you saying your whole order is wrong your you didn't you didn't want the grits grits aren't in here and I was like Oh yeah one of the great like they knew me they knew my order they will like it doesn't look right so yeah I'm loyal minute she also did make up and make up no I care or under a fake name but I I would deal with him so so then after I've air for myself she goes hold on a second one I call the so she did whatever she did she gets back on she goes Ma'am we will be able to refund you for your order a number and a name it's a phone number name the order the order number BITs I don't know sucking on her number I'm on the phone with you if I told you my name sent the email to me so I check my phone I check my computer which is right in front of me as I'm making the phone call and I said I don't see an email and she goes okay we'll come in a few minutes S. lady okay I called in I send my order was wrong so the now she has to go to to verify who I am which is not just a phone go back there but I'm have to physically go there because I will be going through ubereats after I use my five dollar coupon exhaust it's all extra profits for the last quarter my last order what they gave me a little card and a PC I'll have to call back in and place that order all over again which to me I think is the ultimate disrespecting customer service if I have an order that I received that was in oh twenty dollars I'll get back hopefully five whatever something days I don't have money like therefore to be playing around with me and nor even about did I don't want my money back because I'm best so I said Ma'am I don't I don't I said listen you haven't given me my refund ten minutes with the first email and this was not me counting from the call said like twelve or route I said but let's be really clear here even if it did take five to ten minutes I am now on the phone with you approximately eight two thing minutes at the time or thirteen minutes I'm talking about from the time that I asked her about the email has been now a tin almost eight to ten minute camp this refund and that I will so can you please send me an email stating that so she says hold on a second she goes away for about a minute or two she comes back and she says situation there's no confirmation of that northern confirmation number nor is there an email from you you told me you've sent an email now through to trust okay well I want you to wait with me while the email comes in 'cause emails instantaneous so then we wait another minute or so and then she goes we'll have to I said well there's no immediate refund you're telling me there's a refund you also telling me I have to call back to the place to then put in another order your now also telling me that you have handled I don't want to say to her I don't trust you right away I wanna walk her through the steps of Ms Trust on this phone call then guess what she said Ladies and Gentlemen Customer Service Representative because you poorly trained you're trained just enough to be a NYPD officer 'cause ladies and gentlemen man this call is being recorded I said Oh you now threatening me you're threatening you threatening me that I'm supposed to be all this but pat is GonNa win today on whether I was right or whether I was wrong and just to let you know pat is completely unbiased nine minutes and forty eight seconds before I realised that I was getting nowhere with him his first when he first got on the phone he said to me. Am You requested a man address said absolutely I have he told me his name was Marvin I said Okay Marvin can you manage well Marvin is completely correct it's not mind why is the onus on me as a customer to then call back and put the different order to which you are going to charge me again because he can Vegan Omelette they have not Jimbo's aimed at progressive to be having a Vegan not at that whole okay shot at the Jimbo's our order ah numbers matching was attached. Don't make me fill out all I'm not asking to shake the president's hand I'm asking you to give me my ah how do I know you've or from my restaurant all that was so embarrassed I this is this I you fat bitch in Bangladesh or being Indian about tell me your real fucking name budget or whatever the fuck it is so that I have a real paper trail it's like what was going on so I said well absolutely not I will not be putting another order end and now because you're telling me this I need verification that you have now process we're up t shirts say where I didn't understand people that know no web I've been saying kid yeah it's J- is jazz okay when somebody says who did you speak to I have to give them a real name I don't get to say the People Oh my name is Karen meanwhile my name's Monica and then how they go Marvin okay I didn't question it although he did not sound like he was Marvin and let's just all know it sounded like they WANNA call center and Bangladesh that has nothing to do with scared the calls recorded I said I most certainly hope the call is being recorded because whoever listens to this and I urge them to listen to this they need to walk you through the steps of how to be and just so now Marvin gets on the phone I don't even say anything about him being Marvin Okay I just ask him to give me something that identifies him as a Jason what is your title there what is a badge number something because I'm not getting any information that I need and you guys are asking me a lot of information Asian for an order that I still haven't received I'm too I'm three emails into you. They haven't been responded to talking to a woman named Mary now we twenty nine minutes and forty eight seconds do now this is a form of harassment customers calling you was obviously I rate obviously I know it has nothing to do with you personally why I'm in this situation but you the person that I'm supposed to contact to get it resolved you are now making me jump through hoops. PS shout out to that bear and I'm still waiting five to seven days for my money back from the first order so now that order was twenty something dollars I've got a now order again which means I'm forty dollars just thank you so much for calling with circuited with you know the whole thing and so I saw the first thing I said to this woman was my entire order is don't WanNa give a manager honey first of all let's be very very clear and let me just cut to the chase I talked to another guy right after I had been on the phone for twenty wow this is an friend order that I paid for that I don't have and it's already been thirty one minutes so I'll set my last message to you guys with my second picture thank you this conversation and I'm going back and forth with the conversation was longer than that but at twenty nine forty eight seconds is when I looked at the time and I said this is too much and he says to me I'm rip that Man's toenails out of the sockets Matt look it up please the bear the bear you know the bear the bear that the circus bear hit send it comes to me that's happens within a matter of seconds it should be in less than a minute I don't know why your emails have to re- Antigen we're going to get to the other side of the rainbow with this because it did take a bit of a racist turn and it should have he said his name was I cannot give you any information to verify yourself I said or then he goes no I'm sorry then he goes the call has been monitored I said okay this is I see what you guys I told her I just wanted to walk through the strike I didn't want to just lodge into I don't know I'm saying she was you Detroit right right the day put in motherfucking suspenders and pants and reps he rips this Nigga partner have the man died I will tone it down just because they looking for a fucking Karen that don't exist so I said I say anything to her her name was Mary I'd say Mary I said Okay give me mail so I said as well it's just as well as Senate again so she goes and she says it a second time she comes back and I said well there's no email well Ma'am it takes five to ten minutes for an email to go I said no it doesn't it's like Jacob's pickles and I'm telling the lady and she thought my name is Steve No no no you don't get to just throw out whatever the fuck you want when people are trying to keep record of the humor there but don't tell me tell us why emailed in come tell me your name is Marvin because and it's not about him when I started to get stink well okay we're GONNA shit on Uber Eats but we let's go out to the New York while we add it hold on your email that's happening with someone like that not go but it was like she's rushing me along the enemy today I said level me up level up Blah Blah Blah I said Gimme manager I can you now because unle got together because whoever ordered this new sop grits which I never thought also at least I've got another idea what to do a bit because I do not condone death even bear on human death after the BA basement putting suspenders but I would like everybody to know the the same way that motherfucking band went there I would customer the bear bear I win asking you how am I going to get confirmation that I am getting a refund on my order something that you've already told me is going to take back and forth that is taking way too long I'm telling you as somebody who has been a customer service manager you can give me information he knew I kept putting him in double jeopardy because he wants me to he wants me to answer questions and he's not answering questions but I understand as the customer through all the rigmarole I just need to know what is going on with his email that she said she sent me fifteen minutes ago now I'm on the phone with you twenty nine minutes not having all day I will have it because I think of the person who they do this to people this is the problem with America they do this to people almost five days as if I'm going to be keeping some log why go in every day to check my account I need verification from you so that I can keep track of what's going on and if you're listening closely enough you would already know my answer to whether I'm okay with being recorded or not I sat there is I said well that's unfortunate so I don't care if you have to give me your cubicle buddy I will not be speaking to you I don't care if you have to put an alligator on vacation if I needed so that I can keep track of how I'm being handled as a customer and now there's responsibility on you not to be an asshole because you know I have identified are not and never mind the fact that the woman that spoke to you prior already has my verification that's how I got elevated to you as a customer to a manager because she already all the time that they think they can get away with it oh I hear woman on the phone she sounds black I can talk to her and he kind of way I'm talking to a person that sounds like they're not educated I can do them in away but heaven forbid I call and some frantic white woman they would have been on top of it like this or some white guy they would have been on top of it like that oh I'm so sorry I'm so

Jimbo Marvin I Pat Matt Harlem New York circuited harassment Mary Bangladesh president Karen Monica Jason thirty minutes ten minutes forty eight seconds twenty nine minutes twenty nine forty eight second thirty one minutes
America Isn't Getting It's Grits w/ Pat Brown Part 2

Rantin' and Ravin'

27:18 min | 11 months ago

America Isn't Getting It's Grits w/ Pat Brown Part 2

"When you this is a stand up New York labs production providing you podcast since two thousand thirteen toil away the hardware you know what L. Ravens imprint? Go and take a break from this nonsense real quick. I thought you meant a real break cookies and I WANNA get into do why is so. I think I found a good thread. Why is so important that we keep accountability accountability and we keep people on task because when I watched that? ANC thing would would mark Zuckerberg. And I watched her ask this man questions and I watched the resistance from him because already. He's answering questions to a woman of color which he's not used to doing nor does he care about. Let's never make no mistake. Just because a man married a woman whose Asiana black whatever don't mean they're not still on behalf on top of this shit and what they think they should be doing as a white man that's number one so he answered these questions. She's absolutely right and what she's asking him and the fact that we have. I have had things taken down from facebook that have have been inspirational things because they deemed to be something that reflect poorly on the white community. You can't even say anything about black lives mattering hardly you can hardly say anything about lifting black people and as much as we've been torn down but you don't think it's important to fact check the people that are putting putting up ads that you are making money off of then. Why are we allowing facebook to be? And why is it a public entity if we're not the public is not involved in how it's going what I'm saying thing is we live in a world where especially in this country where white men get to run reckless abandon. Not every white man has a privilege of doing that but the people who do have the privilege of doing that happened to be white men and we let them sit there and suits. We don't call them thugs. We don't call them murderers and the things that they're doing. What what he is doing is dangerous? He is undermining the governmental system for people who needed people who need help. Let me tell you how fucked up this world is. I'm watching Discovery Channel. Whatever the nature channel whatever it is National Geo- Yes segues impeccable? Nejra that what they call in Najia on TV one today. They said one one in ten students in New York City is homeless. That's over a hundred and fifty thousand kids kids who have no home. Most of them don't know how they're going to get their food yet on Nat Geo. Oh I watched a turtle receiving ultrasound for everyone learn who has a heart and who wants to make this world better and who lives in this country and thrives for excellence. I'm not perfect. I get into fights all the time because you ain't GonNa play me. I'll play you. Maybe you'll get me but I'm GONNA play. We don't play you know but deep down. I'm a good person. No matter where I talk about race I talk about what we talk about. I want everybody to have a good way. I want everybody have a good time. I want people to have peace every even Whitey. Even why my problem with Whitey. When he impedes his little nasty ass on my people and try to fuck us over? Then fuck him going to stand because too many of us sit here and we keep trying to find a way to be peaceful with people who are killing us. I with that shit it but if you want to break bread and be cool and everybody can get a piece of the Pie and Blah Blah. I'm fine with you. I don't I'm not trying to take away from white people you understand. That's it's just it's just a war right now. We are in a war with a valid. We're not in a war because they are warring with us we we are trying to come by and hold hands and meam and complain. It's all you see my segues. Don't make any sense right right. Oh I didn't say say that at all but that's what I'm letting you guys know is we are all on. A Uber. Eats call with America. Oh Oh greer all ubereats call. We all being pushed around calling customer service whereas my how how wide is there a hun- merica is not getting their Goddamn grits. That's the name of the Party. GD In all Laura this call it. America's not grits. You know I am about eighty Americans not grits. So when we I had such a time today I will share. I saw a time when I came in. We didn't start right away. I had. I was so upset I I burst into tears and I realize that the thing that Keith kept me from having the luxury of talking about stuff and not really having to be involved in it is that I had a family that protected me from this stuff in the sand. I my grandmother and my grandfather father and they were You know pastors and they did for the community we got involved got to help you know you always thought that it was going. It'd be better because you have your family here. You have your you know the people take care of you the raise you and then they die and then you're left in this nasty asks world without any positive reinforcement. Some of us that some of us to stand you got to be the light that they were somebody has the is the baton they pass the baton to you you cannot. You are alive for some people if you cannot ten not I have to deal in a stand with this adjustment. What is term of family passing of course or the impeachment of the indefinite right or? It's in it's a minute of my aunt who has special needs my mother. WHO's a senior? My father called me essay. He's talking about some. He got insurance policy. Some will. I'm like maybe I want tiffany amount. I we'll on himself Okay we gotta talk about how he broke it down. I'm not really with the breakdown but I don't want my father take out a will Money money father and they can play that back once he passes. If you pass this before do I don't want any money. I would rather my father be here. I'm not worried about that. I'm not he goes. We have to prepare and this is where we are as that. You're not we're not not babies anymore. Now we have to be that for the people younger than us or will we have children. Now I gotta be. I mean that's the same situation right now I just had to make to A A dental appointment and a And they health appointment for my mother. Who's two thousand miles away? She's in Missouri and she can't and I'm not there. She doesn't have the support system that she needs to get the things that she she She should have. I mean she has insurance and all that but she does not have the faculty or the wherewithal anymore to do the little things I it was such a time. I had to do to to to take time with her just to figure out what her insurance car was. What her dental Car was where it could be. Get where I could find that information from so and making those making that Call for her. I mean she's been having ditto issues in your older person. You you have dental issues and my mother already had a heart attack about four years ago that can in even that can grossly Impair your your Recovery because bacteria gets in your blood system which can go in in impact the heart and she's having memory deficit so it's me and my sister my brother's Not Available In the ways that we know that in the black is hit are black community but anyway And she doesn't want to move and so it's going to be one of those situations where is not gonna be pretty ugly situation but My mother I'm dealing with that and in his so is so heavy is heavy everyday. Yeah the person that gave you life. The person that instructed acted you She's a shell of that. I mean she's not to the point that she's deteriorated to the degree that she doesn't know who she is or whatever but but It just seeing them that they're not able to do things that that make them thrive but You know it's also you dealing when people's Egos and Everyone has it and she wants to stay in her her house because because removing her from her house would mean that she is no longer capable of taking care of herself. And that's a big deal for anyone to make a to say that out loud to make that transition that I am unable to take care of myself. which is you know? Then I think about myself. I don't have any kids. I'm not I I don't have a partner and so I'm taking my mother's thing and I'm thinking to myself. Wow who will take me So I'll take your pet you no. I ain't GonNa have nothing you sit badly. AUBER eats every day. Yes always is an assistant. Where like this Healthcare system. Some doesn't make it easy making. I mean you're talking about this is so sad to me but yeah thank you said it emphatically you got Over a hundred thousand kids. It's homeless and then you know we spent so much silly money on things. We came to spend money on people. That's the most important thing in the world is people is not things when anytime that you are in a situation and you you feel I. Death is at your door. You don't think about things you don't think about the car you've driven you know. Close you've had you think about people that mattered in your life. People that You've had experiences with people that you loved and loved you. Yeah you and so when I think about I've been really Emotional lately but Yes I think about people and that's where I am in my life right now I'm Really trying to do the best. I can in terms of my own health and taking care of my mom is alive. You know I feel like like we end the same Like an insane place because you know also we have the added pressure of like you know being performance to know and that keeps you know. I was telling my father the other day one of my sisters is is on instagram. And you know I really get to connect and see what's going in her life but I don't get a chance I don't speak to her you know we haven't spoken I mean is there some between you guys. Are you just having no we. Just haven't it it just you know. I think we have sisters and I think we already from just sort of being raised. You know I moved to California when I was fifteen no fifteen and a half and I spent a lot of time there and I got involved in stand up and moved to New York and then just life separated and all the stuff I had going on and you I know my parents broke up. They weren't together and you know and I miss that because like together now is the tragedy we wake up every day. Yes still here. I write that with my grandparents while I'm like. Oh my grandmother's I wish you divorce him right right. You know. But that's because my grandfather was a little bossy but she's not that into you derry life life I have I have both my sisters have children you know and I have never met my nieces. Wow you know I'll even though they might full polices. I'm half nieces. I never met you know my nephew does some. I was so consumed with my grandparents once. They started to me you since I've known you know I've had problems with my grandparents declining in health. And you know they on afford fortunately and unfortunately but they made some decisions Assyrians in terms of who they were bringing to their own environment that we had to separate them from and Really helped to work their nerves in their mind wind. I think pushed him into the grave probably sooner than they needed to my grandfather. Private rooms on board avoidable. Yeah Definitely my grandmother had like six mini strokes brain and she just recovered and I just remember sitting there for a whole year just waiting for her to come back and they kept 'cause they said right after she had surgery and they got drain the brain rain blood from her brain that she would be able to recover like there she would you know she never came back and then just you know just dealing with that name and you know it's tough to make decisions as an artist. Sometimes it is you have to choose you. Don't get it to invest so much time in your family and not you know you know what you're doing so I mean I I've been speaking to relative now and hopefully they're are going to becoming for the holidays you know my mother and but I can't even like I no no you know you just don't know but I hope I hope everybody finds a a sense of a community you know like actually that's the biggest thing thank you and that's what I'm looking for right now to a place where I feel comfortable the people around that community that we are doing something to together to build a better place for I'm not talking about the world just for people for right now young I mean if it's even just as small goal is that that people can find comfort right now. Muslims are changing the world. I'm just trying to change. JP people make people's lives a little better right now so I love you people. You'll be fine pat. We love you to everybody here. Loves you you fan favourite. You beat out Seles. The poll is easy to beat out. Something just doesn't I want to be on the Kapiti like don't put me on that day. 'cause Seles has just less voice podcasts. At all things at all costs sometimes sometimes but We she found her leach with me with Our Commentary Ninety Day fiance commentary. It's very yeah we I watch you guys. Yeah we look forward to you coming back I'll do Seles was comfort but territorial. Well it's not about you. They want me to go. I know them back seventy about their relationship. You have your. You have something that you guys is do together and I feel like I was impeding on that now so watching so I don't have a problem with that understand it. Do we have fun. I think it's about things fun like you know we. We went to the WATERPARK gels. We got things me you got you got. I just less immunity community. Wise like I've been trying to make sure that you know like because we're in such a business anyway like sometimes people don't get to associate with each other sometimes sometimes people on different levels There's a lot of competition I admire you so so so much for that I really do. The the waterpark was absolutely great but it was great for the comics that came out and I was like. Oh she she sent it out to everybody in these these people that you're having some of which I hadn't seen in a long time but we all know each other and then the vibe which is so good so it's like the pupil that you do have in your immediate community and and A little far out then that they came together and same with the Queens County Maize May's my God. That was just so fun and something. I didn't expect but also a true true again your your outreach. Each to people in our community comedy community and pulled out people that I hadn't seen him forever and that are as less active than I. Am more active than I am Different clubs they hang out in but it was just a true pleasure to be in that In that community with those folks. Yeah I want to see more of that like we gotta do our part some you know maybe it just takes a little while they we we we. I think we make a good dual in that. Sense that 'cause sometimes I can suggest something and you're like. Yeah let's do it you so gung Ho like nighttime turn do it now. Let's wait right now. Let's call everybody. Everybody people were asleep. Calmed down we can hold his idea. Put a pig in it But I I really do and I I'm happy to go home for Thanksgiving For my mother but Maybe we can plan something for Christmas for sure eggnog something like like that. My my mother and my aunt still talking about going over your house last year and The food you made and You know risky baby. They were killing at brisket. Homicide came on like Blaine played down my who soon as you leave i. Nika Momma is a beggar pleading got a whole house. Full of food summit has some more. I think this has been a great way to end such a you know. We don't have anywhere to other than here. Era where you can see the podcast. We are hopefully you know going to make it a lot better and have more accessibility. Well you're going to for Halloween that's one our favorite. I'm not celebrating his ear but Well if if if Lulu and I don't break up it was you would stop saying stuff like that. I'm just saying like well. You know how to say it out loud even if you feel like sometimes it's not you know the greatest you don't have to say it out loud to me is like a self fulfilling prophecy when you say stuff like that you know. Sometimes you just like you get into this thing with somebody just like you don't want to. I always say because he says some stuff like that Tuesday. You shouldn't talk bad about it but I'm not talking about about it but I don't WanNa put so much ego behind this relationship to act like you say anything you don't have to say the negative parties. RT's yeah but he also posted that breaking up so he you know he did his instagram. He boasted as as of right now. But we're going as Mario Luigi that is such a exelon costume. So I got my costume came in the mail last week. And there's a couple alterations in definitely some spanks. I'm GONNA have to wear but I mean it looks cute cute outfit brick in the wall. Well you you it was it was towed princess met with the mushroom right. That's made me a miss towed. If I get you a costume will you come with us. I don't know my mind you know. I like Halloween. Let's talk about we could go to. Let's stop by Halloween Spirit. Okay guys but you know. I don't like scary. It's scary I I. I know we'll be fun. I was GONNA put some blood and stuff but I don't like a premium always do my face every year but I don't have to Matt. What are you going as hopper from stranger things? Some young people some stranger things to he's going I'm privileged white man you want. I have. I watched the first season. I just have the body type of what of the character hopper. Ah I I actually liked the first the first season. I don't know where the second season went. The third season got a little. Oh like really pro. Capitalism like Communism's the devils like. Okay why are you getting Paul political with this. It was such a It was such a show about kids and their realization to things Biden or whatever and that's the first season and it was so good and they could have recaptured that well. I'm sorry. I know Transylvania anxious three. We're here PAT. And the delay my premier. I did took a two pitches with two. I cons yes. Yeah Eddie Murphy and ICED. I see absolutely. How did you enjoy your like? What's your little not little? But what's your review on the movie. Sure they go. Oh absolutely see the movie the movie is am. I'm and I and I say this with all sincerity. This is one of the best movies I saw this year. It was I. I feel like Wesley Snipes Mar probably will be nominated nominated for something Eddie was going to going to be nominated for something he was both of them were outstanding and this movie but the movie the the subject marriage movies so inspirational it makes you say to yourself if I'm not I'm not doing it. Then it's it's I I I can do a little bit more. I can work a little more. I can think about it in a different way to make my dream come true and this is the inspiration that comes out of that movie. It was so good and and So so my story about Eddie Murphy. So Tracy Morgan who I let be friends with me So he said you want me daddy and I was like of course absolutely he walks me over there and So Eddie is talking to a group of a gag or white women anytime. It's over three white women's a gaggle so A Gaggle of white women and so I didn't want to interrupt him but he was standing with his cousin and so he was about to walk away but his cousin saw this This introduction from tracing so now it's ask our says is okay and I get a pitcher at. He's like yeah sure so he tells Eddie ready to come back the right so we get into pitcher and he said so So you said it's so how do you know Tracy and I said Well we tour together on his tour and he said Oh. That's cool so you're comedian. I was like yeah. I'm I'm a comedian. Says what's your name he said. I said Pat Brown. He's how that's easy to remember. I was like yeah. It's easy to forget. And he started laughing. So I may Eddie Murphy laughs. Eddie Murphy left Proteus see yeah. What a beautiful story? Yeah so it was great but The movies great I saw Spike Lee was there. I saw Gina Gina Carlo. The guy that from Breaking bad the villain. I forget his first name but he was there. I was so many Star heavy in there but it was just a pleasure to be around comics and people that get it and people in this buyers you to you know as a as a comic that does this thing and you seeing that you know you just gotTa put in the work and also it's just enjoyable to see other people doing this thing at a high level inspires you well. What a blessing I was at the premiere of my house and I got to see to roaches walk across a wall but you saw venue for the four times I have to see three young? Ladies and Gentlemen Edmund Pat Brown you guys have enjoyed her for two episodes. We thank you so much for listening. this episode that. You're listening

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Jack Thrills Her! It's Jack Thriller, Y'all

Rantin' and Ravin'

44:39 min | 2 months ago

Jack Thrills Her! It's Jack Thriller, Y'all

"The. Hawk will. Be. y'All. Welcome to rant and rave in with Yemeni game friends. We're going to get right into it today. My guess is Jacks Thriller how. Are you I'm static could be on your show. Thank you so much for inviting me well, I'm glad you will come and do my show like we were just talking before. We started record and I said you walking around this big as place and I'm trying to figure out you know what island yuan and you say when you. In Harlem Harlem. Hey y'all got a fireplace to in my bedroom. That's crazy I don't. Know listen you. All you need is a woman that come up in there and put a couple of. Israel. Oh. Oh! No I have move. You've made I'm looking at Harlem, but we living in two different lifestyles because. My apartment I had to pay my apartment just to make it look jazzy doormen again go by my neighbors. I don't know what AB and half the time I'm rationing surviving where I live. Is episode a good time? Hey usually see the last place. Ask Eighty light bill that a semi and Hakeem heads say it will. Be Good combination. It was that no elevator for slow that. That's crazy. How long have you been because you're not originally from New York right now? You're from Atlanta. How long have you been in New York? But ten years now, okay to years and. We'll have you lived while you because like I? It took me I've been in New York for twenty one years now. and. I moved. I was always in Manhattan for the most part what took me? To ten years about ten years ago, I moved to Harlem and I'm in love with how wanted to take you to get the Harlem in and layer your roots down here. May I moved to Harlem A. When I got here, I was staying with my uncle. He had apartment on wall. Street. Wing seventh and days, and he gave me four months to get know six months to get my shit together and whatnot because I was I was living in Atlanta and I had peaked on everything that I do as a comic. And I was watching Tavist, molly, my uncle, my other uncle in Atlanta and Fifty cents was owned and he was talking about. He was looking for Comedians, writers and directors because he just started a new company Cheetahs. I was like you need to go up to New York's. Fifty and A! You know people always suggest some bushes you should do. Found so far fetched, and it did, but the and I had nothing else going on. While was uptown comedy club every every day right on. at a time a Pat. Brown was there to and she was. On. Am I never Fran. Pat Row I know. We have been talking about moving to New York forever. Wow, okay well. Yeah! And I think I had A. took a trip up to new. York to be assistant director on a lots video and a A call for something like that. Or I know how to do everything wow! As a comic I wanted to be in I wanNA, do TV shit now. I was taking acting classes on a of amid actors. Studio were Dwayne. Robert towns he, doesn't he he he came through. It's classes a lot to. Pat Brown did a whole bunch of overdose Robertson, so she could you know back this up in the test to it and? In the process of doing that these always creature about shooting your own stuff and being independent right. Yes, oh I. Oh, I was with a click of comedians. Name Gabriel Heart gave heart a famous music video director. Now he was for migos. Yeah and we. I assistant director on my president is which yeezy announce Oh wow okay I have later, I. Didn't, but it's like you know those very ambitious things. But how how does somebody doesn't? Like some people don't just wake up and go, I can direct some people even understand you. Know any of that stuff. How did you where did that? Come from with you? That's Edit time in Atlanta. A lot of comedians was doing the music videos to music videos and trying to be that comedian indicated music videos. And in the process of doing that I hate around shouted out a little little do go north hosted at the time, and they was in all the videos and shit and I had a way to this video. Shoot calls. Move bits get. We're ludicrous. I I was very outrageous in the video I had on a blonde curly. We exist I had on a chain shirt. NOSER UNDERSHIRTS, yeah! I was booked fucking while anyway. I had. For you to dress like that like no. No. Understand that so I could get in right, and they put right in front like I knew it was going to do. And I had got sold so living I had in both this girl in the head of I no I did not reclaim outs and it was. Hey, that was great. We won't be needing you for the rest of the shoe. Guy. The whole town I don't see the girl on the flow now. Ask. Me To shoot when going on. Back then 'cause you. Know Person, but they keep up a ludicrous in an juggled salutes video shoots, and I started showing up the more video shoots and stuff in some. I couldn't get in and what I would do is I. would still a gap in and helping them out with stuff behind the scenes to? Learn how to do this. Shit, right at my boy gayborhood. He same thing with him. We would just comedians by night trying to get on stuff in the daytime. We were shoot our own skits and we knew what we wanted how we found out we look. online of how to light shit. And how does it up? Smack it down. What kind of what we needed. And, we became the skit. Guys in Atlanta. And so if they wanted skits, become, get us become. Shoot them. So is this comedian name Rolling Powell? He was he had just gotTa deal with Mercury Entertainment and He. He wanted us to shoot. His gets warm. They call them La Duval now. and. Even be, Kodak Funny I was in I, was in it Alam. I helped direct hit the right and skits all that shit and I think was a young cheesy young. Jesus has seen a video that we. Do our own on video, and he the shoot a couple of videos for his mixed tape and everything, and then Ti. Then it's the start growing and we started building catalogs. And you know we're shoot music videos in the daytime events doing standup at night night and Because you know. From what you talked about you had a lot of opportunity. Inexperience with guys who are already on like young g and TI. Do you think that that's a credit? Like sometimes? When people are trying to get into other aspects, you can't get next to like Britney Spears, or and those guys on that level of popularity. You can't into a Britney Spears or Maybe beyond say but. Yet. Let me, let me say this. We had upper hand because we wear the comedy clubs, so these people come to the comedy club. Why don't we all so you finally? That's what you're doing on the side you. Did it again. So, we were already we had already came through the back door right? Yeah, so they know us and I just feel like from like. When you do more mainstream room while you may have people have. Liberty that stop by not really. How Lane with you. It just seemed like you guys had a at hasn't had an ability to just have. These guys Kinda shoot rat with you and talk you. Know that there were other things that you guys could do other than just doing standup. What let me ask you this with people favorite subject. Themselves Oh, yes. Yes. What do you need? And how can I help you get what you need, so it'll help me get what I need Ryan, are you? You have to put yourself second. Could them first and then everything else? It works itself out, and so it's a part of paying dues. You get your own the backing Ryan. Back in take, it takes a long time. So! You have to work until it words I. Mean None of this stuff that I'm telling you is overnight store. Magin. Yeah, it was A. Lot of hard work hang blitz waited hungry nights and emotion sleeping in 'cause and. You know and I had to do that after I. Got Home Frank? was. It was a lot of lessons that I had the tape for. A got a little, too comfortable had to start over. or Comfortable but distracted. Right out house rounds, yeah! Dumb Shit like that all were drinking and so things. Can you in some way you don't really WanNa, go, you can get quite. I think that's important to people understand that just because you get to a certain level or you get on, it doesn't mean you can't lose things or as things look as easy as they appear to be. Some people think Oh, he's want easy street now because he still takes a lot of work and you gotTa Keep Your Position Yeah. Yeah most definitely it it. It never stops. You know once you start getting. Oh, that's what actually the whole at work starts. Noted was it ain't really knows all about what you won't do. What is on? For. Which you light? You degenerate netflixing. I'm still trying to get that fleet that Shit I'm like Oh. I WanNa take your brain right. Yeah, yeah, I mean I. Think it's I mean it's really intriguing to me because it has been part of. The collective of what I've been talking about Anna I was on I. I've been on a couple of different podcasts shows comic. That would have never interacted with just because they keep a soda separated between urban and mainstream which I've been trying to. I've never liked the idea of that I never liked the idea of You know I've always hit up quote. Unquote Hood Rooms on I. Don't think they any different than any. I mean the crowd obviously can be very different. In because they they not with the Shenanigans yet. Come on now. Definitely, let's go you know. I understand that aspect of it but I think the content and the and the type of comedy me. Give it across can translate to any audience. So hate when they keep a separate and there's a lot of things that I have done, but I. Have you know at some of the guys who have have built their own way and having got like I've done a lot of traditional things, but in the day your apartment looked better than mine. You understand what I'm saying. I'm not saying I don. Like, let's compare what we have. What we had don't have but I think sometimes people look at. A resume a resume looks like versus the ultimate thing for me of success is owning myself in my own opportunities and having access to speak to my fan base. My people the way that I want and I think. Utilize that and I think a lot of guys who they can stay sort of like. Comics and they're like well, I don't want to do this. I don't want to go this route. It's sort of like a pedigree kind of thing and I. Don't want to be here. And then I'm looking at brothers and sisters and I'm like Oh well. They really made this instagram thing happen, or they really May. Urban comedy happened, or they really made her came out and spoke with them, and and fuck with them, and they got a. they got more that they can ask for. Cash shakes than a lot of us who have gone to the quote. Unquote mainstream route still can't sell out tickets. For people to put us on and give us opportunities. So, what are you have this to speak on that? There's no blueprint if you just gotTa keep on trying things and trying things. You of one thing that I think is amazing. That you do is your engagement which our audience, and what they? You Know Your Audience Yeah Equal to. A get closely where as me. I don't do a whole bunch of different things and I'm trying to be praying for patients every day. Talk to these people. You know let them say what they want to say to me. Yeah and I. Think as a comic, you know. In a certain degree, it's a lot of us are introverts, or you can just kind of make you recuse. Yeah, I am. I've gotten to this well. I just don't be one of the be Bob. And for me to be on, and I'm trying to go find some money yet. Not get lost in there and like. I hadn't before February. Same my mom it seven years and I said He. Realize right. She? Combined. I'm not I've never been the most family oriented guy. And when I tried to do that, I got married in seventeen and abortion, seventeen and whatnot. got married at seventeen and divorced seventeen or no. What happened was your. Mom at the wedding telling you don't fuck. What are feels words. Ellsworth we. Can you know? I was looking for happiness outside, but you gotta find that sheet you. Can you say that again? That's what people I mean. I've learnt that lesson so much. If you don't have happiness inside, you know outside source. Is You happiness? And so yet, we it was a situation where I. I I hadn't got with somebody that wanted to be Jack Thriller. and. That's not who I am at. Right right and people don't understand about. It's like we can be all of that, but when we come home, we just WANNA be chill. You don't WanNa. Be on all the time. I'm not going out. I cook. He'd home, saying I don't Oh. I'm not going to or anything like that. You know it. You Latin Latin when you do see me doing that. Instagram debt was because I was working right. Yeah, get! Yeah, it's not it's not real. It's not like people like even when I'm dating today and whatnot, women come away or whatnot if I'm hanging around my home bullets. With his weight. Dayton asking. This will come along with the game especially when when when you're doing it like the way I'm doing it. Oakland. Women and all this other stuff and you know. Wrap up coaches. They automatically assume that that's what's going on. As, long as You compression because like yesterday. It's so funny because every now and then I'm on your and I'm not people stories like that and stories, and you know what we gotta talk. We talk about the push. Push the pizza and all that stuff. Obviously, but I'm I'm looking I'm going okay. I see some people with this all of a sudden. I, just see this woman with the most perfect as the most round. Ask them the thinnest waves, and she's just kind of like isolating her, but and I'm like okay. You know you get people a well. Yeah. You have a nice. How much of that do you think you'll call and I see a lot of sexy women on your page and I you know I. Love Watching Women Be Sexy I love anybody who's into body. I'm not against working. You know you want do all that Shit. Go do it and let me see to. That do you think is you really want to share that? How much do you think you want some of Your Fan Base? Some of the guys that are watching I gotTA. Keep them in. Tank give them a little something a hundred percent. It's all it's all about them, but in the way out on do. Is All about them because at the end of the day. This is what I found out to Yemeni A. Win It's good. It's good. You know as far as your you you being successful inside of the business and stuff and. I. When it's bad. It really you can get really bad, so I'm talking about yeah. The financial part of it, so I'm a I'm about making money, but not like doing anything for money, but I know what you want to see and I'm going to. Do what you? I'M GONNA. I'm going to paint the picture for you with whatever product that I'm selling from my point of view in my. Through my comedy, testimony and everything the week. and. They can be a little ranchi. Sometimes, it'd be some some tasteful you see in my. My story's a like. You say that it's. It's vast of broad spectrum of entertainment. Civil Rights Shit going on and. You see some animals of cute little. Bunnies some sheets. Just thinks that I like and I'm you'RE GONNA? See my taxes. I'm a big Michael J. I noticed that. Is that part of with relocating from with you? Where Canes How did you get it like when you first started doing comedy? First of all you? You aren't going by Jack Thrill. No. How's? Your talk to me. Come on. Honey. Though is a stage name. Your Mama, Gave you that you know some black gave. Little Honey Bun, you probably wear corduroy pants and all kinds of sittings gear. I asked pretty cute clothes. but A. Singer Entertainer, actually what okay? He didn't call me that he don't notice. And he doesn't okay I'm. I've only talked to say I. Don't Event Center once. What's? Left of Palooza longtime ago either Nice Guy met him a couple of times. He was very nice to me. Yeah, he was, he was super. He says some crazy about me and I had told his job. He said Dell is funny as club, but it won't work. For You Indeed it on stage and lovable losers and. And it ain't joke. A you year. He used to have this joe where he said it was due came up to me, and his name was delicious. I'M NOT GONNA call. As, bad, listen and that he helped me. Laugh but days about. For days and I said you know if it was doing comedy and what I need to get a name like delicious. Somebody's GONNA, make. This lab we lose the drop. Win Lose the droughts. Atlanta is this thing called a chat line, and its own? It's like being at room owner. Seventeen years old exam. I'm thirty eight now like twenty eight twenty one years ago. Share so anywhere of I'm a chat line and I it's like five or six people in the room on the phone at the same time and his. As it had my name. Is Anybody Hoping? Everybody. Land Hey My name is handlebar. I hope you want my dad. And everybody would laugh and I went to another room. To Room Again Hamilton anybody opening moment i. So everytime I've thought about it just made me laugh, and all that Jesse right there honeymoon. I'm I'm I`Ma. Put on it, so it sound masculine year at it ain't date if he got his honey buttons. Okay Brown used to hate that Shit. Rally hate that she hated. Everybody hated. No nobody wanted. Nobody was cool with hundred projects. The older Gangsta rap another that. What Almost start a fight introducing myself ran. My name is to. Make a way, but then when you get to know me and see how cool I am. Ended up calling me honey. And like people used to get on the ball all the time because he had a best friend named honey buns because you know after we did all of our, we had a DVD for men him and become really good friends, I moved in with him, and Shit became opening neck of bodyguard personal assistant. Pay My dues I- was all about paying dues I just wanted to get it i. want work I want Liar. You know what I'm saying, so that's out of honey bun. Thing about Senator Entertaining Delicious Joe. How long into comedy did you change your name? Honey buns just before I moved to New York. I You had to drop it. How long have you keep honey buns while he was in New York. I've never had it in New York. So you drop the. How long were you honey buns like a year? You know I will hunt on from. From Seventeen to twenty seven, I moved up here when I was twenty seven. What. Ten years, you rocks so at seventeen. You said you you. You weren't doing comedy. You already doing comedy when you were I. I started doing. so that's definitely a seventeen year old move. Yes, yeah, and at what point? You're maturation, did you? Still I'm still racking with honey buns. 'cause twenty seven at some point, somebody decide no that that's what happened at twenty seven. That's one on I was just about to move to New York I. I had A. I came up here in video with Joe in on lots and stuff with my man gay. And Get home and I after I. Was Giving up, apart. Because I I was. In New York on his trip. And I call Rob Stapleton. Yes, Bob. Call! He said it was hundred bucks. I say I'm I'm in New York and I WANNA go up, I WANNA see if I'm funny here. I need to know if I'M GONNA. Funny because it's making a New York. You can make it anywhere. And he said I gotTA show tonight. DUGOUT and What the fuck that is a! Becky stadium in big Yankee, stadium and To a warm-up show before that Spot called MOCHA's with pokey. And so I went. Back The. MOCHA's and honey buns. Talk after this day to day, he talks about A. Boy a minute he may be. When I came back I was Jack Releasing nigger. No. Honey buns for album for me all out. And invest a he, he introduced me for Lewinsky called behind abundant fart for me, and everybody does to that no was that my name used to be funny, but because it's such a polar opposite of what's going on right now. Right as Jack through. You know what I'm saying people think of. This listen and listen I'll decide people today. they see me as this gangsta hardcore porn US comedian. And whatnot that's-that's not high on my. McCabe I'm really Nice Conservative Guy The just want down. As a a I had changed my name of in two thousand into Oh this Get back from. I get back from New, York, and Whitland Duval, and we the grand hustle studios, and with ti at TI getting ready to go to jail for the first time. And a day was picking on him inside the studio about being be having a best friend named honey, Bunny Shit, and I might lobby, and I'm. I'm not aware none of this shit, and they grow room, and it really is what rolling. Out about what you mean when he come. and. He said. What's your real name chances? Getting my reader, but that's what I said. When girls, where would they? Girls I will tell him my name, my name CIANCI like INFLEC- street when. I literally. CanNot. Are Browns I was commits you. Need a name. Will you have more names an alias? To Germany I. Never Been Afraid to reinvent myself right I love that about you actually. Yeah, you go. I'll play up I. play the game. However, chips may fall. To any any return, things 'cause which. Is A. There's a difference between what you do, which is reinventing right and reinvention comes. With maturation also right so as we you know, which is why you know it's. Rarities when you have artists like Michael Jackson artists like beyond say, who started very very young, and they're able to take their audiences with them. They said Madonna was able to the same thing, because they are constantly reinventing themselves by keeping a hold of their true essence, but I just WanNa, make sure we have clarity because some niggers just be switching shit up just to be You've got to be a purpose by the moves and adjustments that she make. Exactly Yamanaka you are. You're such a intelligent woman intelligence wait. You. You got it. Whatever idiots. That's what you got. Yeah so when I has what they and we changed my name that night in the studio and it's actually online on you too okay. Yeah, you can see this. I I'm seeing your clip of it asked of. You I know if you can play it in the background or some shit like that and house yet. We'll see what we can do with see kind of magic, you know. We can make. yet it's A. it's everything that I've done nine and whatnot It was I I saw this particular moment at when all the cameras the enroll. Okay, this time oppose the change. Right here and so. Like like positive care being because he got one like Jack Sparrow, and as I said now that's that's. I like the Jackpot, but despair Odessa a character. You what? I'm big Fan I'm How about Jack Rillo? And yet Jack, you know what and then I'm GonNa. Throw young in there, too. You know because I'm a big Fan. Jack up that. Watch you, that's it. I'm be jet Willis. So in two thousand, nine, a March I became young Jack Load and it hit. So I moved up here. August six of two thousand nine a defined fifty. And My, Six months the make whatever dream trying to happen so Family on time. Limits I. Got To ask. You gotTA. Be You. Know what I noticed about Nick New, York. The whether it's a guy or a daughter signed man. They don't have a cutoff point of when somebody gotta get the House that's me I. dated a lot of women that still stay with their mom or sister or somebody. That's related to them, and you know what I'm saying like look. Kick out like this. Also. Just so everybody remembers it knows Diana. Ross was already too old. Be Playing Dorothy. She stole at roles from seventy meals. Okay, who was a teenager? Data. Ross was already on menopause with two kids having an affair with Berry Gordy when she decided she was going to play a fourteen year old girl in ways. Time to get the fuck out the house either way go. As you had to go all the way to ours to do it learn. UNTO, fucking over his. You got you gotTA. You gotta put your family on the time live. Show they see it and that's what you just. Don't mean. Shit like me and my brother. We just bought my Momma Carter ship and whatnot now. We're GONNA. Try to get her house in, Atlanta. I feel like I'm too late. I feel horrible about it to Yemeni. Never give their parents anything. Even have the opportunity so I. Never think it's you know. I had a conversation earlier today with my father. My father's in his six in. Listening to late, but some of the stuff you're trying to accomplish, so I think while we are still breathing, and we have life and bodies. We have opportunity to continue to grow and do things and I know. Your Mama's happy just had there, and yes, she is. A, hold hold on just a second making this know. We have. You know lights in an instagram and things like that. Put US on unnatural time. Line it. Puts us a against people that are in our lives that we see we see them doing things in you know we go. Aren't we doing those things and you have to take a step back I? Just took a took three days off from instagram thought it. I really needed it. I said. All my friends are having babies. They're all over instagram. They're all getting married I was like I. Just I can't see that for a while I'm in quarantine. A just broke up with my. You know my boyfriend and. WanNa be seeing that while I'm in quarantine and feeling. Sorry for myself. I needed three days to adjust and I came better. I think people need to take instagram breaks for their own sanity. Most definitely agree. And reject. because. that. was. Got To do a July. We'll let me you know. You you lean in his bed now and food and stuff and we're looking at you leaning over this bed. Mogi there. That Wendy's on my. You you'RE GONNA be bad for my system. You mean bad from. Down Did. You can't get Wendy's if you don't get frosty. I didn't get a frosty. I didn't get I didn't get a frost. Wannabe. Be added having my house tagging. When FROSTIES get out of control sometime time. They said he sometimes. They use some type of glass fibers. I don't know. And the frosty, but. While we're while you're. You're eating now, but I won't know. I can I I can multitask Jan. Good I wanNA know who who was who was young Jack. Young honey buns, young chauncey like. Were you a precocious kid? Like? How did you get into like you know? When I look back at my life, I'm like I understand. Why became a comedian? Was a shock to me all the things I was a kid kind of lead up to a life. who were you as a kid? What were you like? Well. I was always watching TV. Should I I was I would go come on our watch TV every every. Every Sitcom that ever came on I can tell you about it documentaries and Video, so I'll let you my life, yeah. I was I was quiet, but I was very outgoing at school like the personnel was at home. Win The prison that I was at school that was. On. Always had I was born blind in my left APP, so he has become your body and. Give them the same energy that they will give me like if you said something about me I was gonNA. Say some even more creative about you. A education rank right right right and it was finding, and my teachers used to always say that I was going to be a comedian, but I didn't believe that 'cause. I watch comedy shows and stuff and UC's comics on stage or long periods of time like a fifteen minutes and thirty minutes, or are you in class? You uninspired? You make an outburst. I really the same thing. Would you agree? Absolutely I mean you know I was long winded as a kid I? Would I put on? I talked to myself years I didn't I didn't have any so I had imaginary friends probably. Needed to. Did you go did? Say! I say. Did you win student body and all that? was. Out of, student body President I was. Hold on just a second Yemeni. Magic Uzi. and. They're trying to give me the hill. Take the Jacuzzi. Let. Wasn't name. Are you an fucking hall of a Jacuzzi. What we living in two different Holum's allies. Would you. gumming eager when you can get off we. Zoom come on over. Nineteen S. Help? Nodding hanging around and doing. You play tomorrow to to. Let down when he when are you coming back Monday you going to say I was GonNa say when you come back I'll come over. But I I mean you need two weeks. You GotTa Quarantine. On this. I, we get. Face time because I ever you know I, try to Take you over there now, but it seemed like we lose connection. I think my my own in gets week. It might. Probably picking up on on. The phone, but listen this I actually like. We need to definitely do a part to. There was so many things that we were getting into I. Know once once meals calm. You got your crew these that got to be. You know. Ardeshir. Raised to someone. And you get party on, what is what do you like? Would you like to leave you see? I knew when I was I said. This is GONNA be. Really Fun. This summer. I know, but it's hard to. It's hard to really like interview you because it's. We keep dipping into like a conversation which is great. But I want people to really late. Now all the things I've seen interviews with you and I know when people you know a lot of times like it's comics or anything entertainment where people have a certain idea who you are they are to. You liked that idea of what you are instead of really getting to know who you are as a person because I think, people can be just as interesting as a person as they are. IS THEY'RE CHARACTER? So it was my to really get to know who you were, so everyone else could really understand like behind the magic of how people become who they are as performers Omar. Blessing. Nobody This is great on. Let me look at me. Oh. Okay, read us. It I wasn't gonNA cry today. Know that was too much you. bobble waters right there. That was amazing. Though as well I just had a breakthrough. Everybody. Take Shell right to own. Yes. Fix My life. Yemeni show my personality. Who I am. Man. What is something that you would like to leave with? Anybody that's watching 'cause. You talked a lot about really the story behind you is just being a go getter, really having people behind you and your family who are keeping you on task. Telling you that you can do things having the confidence to believe that you can do something six months. You know letting you know that. Oh, his got fifty cents. He looking for this. You know I think people take for granted that not everybody family does that, not everybody has that type of situation you know migrant me, not a unique right Oprah and see. The Oprah show until Oprah. You Black, young black girl! She loved that you. Couldn't you tell your grandmother? And I was like my grandmother so crazy. 'cause open, read-end Shit, first of all was going to be like seventeen won't get to that letter before she touch it, and they gonna put it in the trash before she touch. So, what does the confidence that my grandmother had think, and why and I just reach out to Okra. WHO and she? No, you GONNA make it. If you know you got that, Shit, yes. But. She's waiting on you. You find that you got shit. Matabeleland Sue. The everybody say you can do as gotta, but my grandma's also the same woman who told me I need to see evacuation on forensic files or the first forty eight, and I said well. You know that you gotTa die on that show so. What what word would message? Would you leave with people? That is the tournament of your life that you have used to propel you to success and further success, if simple man whatever you wanna do in life, mango, dude, shit, because it ain't saying video games, you don't get no extra men, yeah. You you You, only live once, yeah! Leave ones, and so you whatever you want. I'm on the phone I'll be out in the fact that. Yes! USO adorable. It's ridiculous. You need to have your own show with cameras around you twenty four hours a day. Trying to be like that, that's what that's. What I'm going to La about tomorrow. Okay, all right, let's me. I. Sit! Yes I'm. I'm really excited about it. Yeah above. Hussein is you don't you have to take advantage of your life right now? Because you don't want to be on your deathbed and say I played it way too safe. Yeah, I'll tell you. Say and you didn't do what you were supposed to be doing. You know people that. Think. They have problems that you really don't if he didn't wake up this morning. People that are in jail right now doing life that they wish they had your problems. They wish they could get up and fucked like you again, yeah! Amen Yeah that's. Real so I said. Hey, man! If you're going through hell, keep on going until you get out. A man take it out, go. Lose, if you every day that you wake up, is another chance to do better s because somebody wishing they had joe problems and shit round with you. Accept you thinking right now and. You. Get. You gotta see it though you gotta really believe it and nobody came on it for you. You know ambition is not a top things is not a learned behavior. You know you just gotTa have that Shit. You know what I'm saying. If you don't help nobody else life, you don't deserve so figure out how Yoshi can help else you re be residual and whatnot and a the same time. take care of yourself. Take care of yourself and make sure you got something to pass on somebody to make these ships go a little bit easier. Man, yeah well I'm telling you right now. I have done some really incredible interviews with some one on ones over the last since the start of the year was sort of just been changing a four man of Ratna Arabian. And Lot less ranting and more getting to understand and rave on people that are in my life. That I know so I really appreciate you coming on the show and taking the time out of your busy Jacuzzi schedule. Right now man. I'm almost, they said. We're GONNA be the last night, but yeah, it is what it is. And clorox in there for me, because if I put my toe in the Ad Kobe nineteen I know that's right we got you. We don't disinfect that. Yeah thank you so much. I really appreciate you. I'll talk to you soon. Hey. Thank you for having me and I love Y'all. Thank you, you amaze. By? This has been rettendon raven with. Meka.

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Comic Not Court Jester

Rantin' and Ravin'

1:10:39 hr | 2 months ago

Comic Not Court Jester

"The Hawk will. Be You. What? y'All imprint. Hey guys welcome to rant and rave in with Germany and friends, not wasting time. This gentleman has been on numerous times the PODCAST, but he's been away for quite a bit of time magazines off soaring into stardom in in all facets, comedy and journalism. Lee Welcome the incomparable, also slade. Although. You it I've been on the podcast alone time because I'm one of the few people that challenge you where you be talking that cast. You have. People come on, challenge me you busy. Don't act like you ain't. Lying around and and catch us up with what's been going on with you because I know you went and vice news have been making a lot of games and tracks with all the protests in social justice happening in the world. As. Kobe hit then A. War Hit. Family I think we I think we have the precipice of game ready. Get them hands thrown. All these caring. You know I'm falling these pages. Karen Gone Wild. Kevin Gone Wild Karen's going while Kevin knowing what like it's. I don't think he's going to be a race word. I don't think he's going to be black versus white. you know. I was I was I. Was There Minneapolis? When it was hot, and then I was in Tulsa when it was hot man, a lot of white folks out there willing to throw hands kinfolk too good I mean I think with the the problem is is that in the interim of trying to affect change or what people are always feel that it's? Dangerous to put our freedom, and what we want and me hands in hopes of other people because you get it with conditions. That though I don't think that I think you know. I mean if. If, it is amount you know I. Say Race War Ingest obviously, but if it if it does come to some semblance of that, I don't think it's black. Folks put in their fate in the hands of. Of White people that fight for them. I think it's black folk. GO FIGHT! As they said it regardless of. You know. IRREGARDLESS wasn't aware. I know right. We said we'd companies yet. I. It regardless to the we was. But. Let's say if become to some semblance of that. And in cats have to have to you know. Get Violent Kinfolk. The black votes go go do it regardless, and the white people join. They're going to be joining because they believe in in what people are fighting for. What. Can you talk to us about like how this got started? Did you anticipate that you will be one of the voices that will be contributing to this time? this. Give us a little background on that I. Mean when I when I I've been with vice for a little over a year and a half now and. When I was familiar with Vice. I watched it. You know buys news on HBO and they have that Channel Vice Land. At the time and you know as. You know we we. We go on our this. Yeah, and you know. We're GONNA week. We do our best when we're in the room and once we leave the room. Is Done wipe ourselves of it and because you know to to hang onto the aspiration of getting, it is just you know as loss. Call Right, and so I did a screen test. Walked away and. Got A call back to to sit with EP of vice news tonight on HBO and had a conversation with them for about an hour. We talked about all manner of things. Philosophy history politics, intellectual curiosity, all of that and And I ended up doing a trial with them. We dated for a few months like me. I liked them and not. A relationship off on relationship, and so but to answer your question directly I didn't. Like I've Seen Bai's and I see how they go to conflict zones war zones in. Like I'm not that correspondent I'm not. I'm not the do. That's going to be in the trenches you know. Would a helmet and bullets passing by face and. So. While, because you you, you trenches does what I'm saying like, but when I said that you know I'm thinking the Middle East, you know. Right right right I didn't. It didn't even comprehend, I didn't even consider that it would be in my own country. Yeah, that I would be you know in that in that sort of of of conflict zone, but. I'm I'm grateful for the opportunity to. Be In a position to cover that you know as a not just as a journalist, but as a black journalist, but even as a black male journalist because The When you're out there on the streets, it's you have a perspective that I covered with. Than, what someone else would to say that? It's any better or worse is just GonNa be different and I think having those diverse perspectives in journalism is important in powerful because you know when we were seeing Minneapolis on the mainstream news sites. It's you know the looting destruction of property. You know In there is that that's part of the protest movement, but that's not entire picture or scope of the protest, and to be in a space advice where they allow me and my producers to find the stories beneath the stories in the stores adjacent to the other stories that people are seeing is is power. When we. Think about like? Journalists and then when we think about comedians therein two different spaces right, there's a sort of integrity that you get as journalists and is sort of a spaces, a comedian, whereas just light Levy. You don't take it too seriously. How are you able to incorporate them? Or. Do you think you've been able to incorporate the? Too? Because you know? We all understand that like comics. There is a lot of insight there and with journalism there there is a level of. Humor that you must possess so that you don't die inside of all of the content that you over women content they have to. ABSORB HOW'RE YOU marrying? The two or you still trying to marry the two? Well I think on a fundamental level all that different as comics. You observe behavior. As journalists, there's a intellectual curiosity about the world that you possess and I think those those no circles they they become concentric in more ways than people think right net. Of course as if they're doing a story. About man's hair weaves right. I love. As. So many of my guy friends. They was like. I was like sign that Yo. I hours there watching them do it. But boy is nice like real. You would not oh Lizzie in the bedroom and you know. You gotta get the pulling. You live can. You. A. Story like that. You, know intrinsically that story is funny just by hearing it. Men's hair, we. Me So then I don't have I don't have to do anything to make that funny right. People is is inherently funny, but then. If, it's inherently funny. The not get a chance to challenge myself to grounded in some sort of seriousness right, so we laugh and we joked like the men's hair. We's brothers. You know you go into swimming pool in and you. You know he's going to be on one side of the pool on the other night, but then. The seriousness of it is that people from. You know there are people who suffer from cancer. Right, so we giggle, Giggle Giggle, but then we grounded in some seriousness. Then we giggle Giggle You know what I'm saying. But Dan inversely. You got the serious stories right? And is okay to at a bit eleven to the to the serious story. Right I, I'm you know I'm in Tulsa Oklahoma. And I'm at the site where. Trump has had his rally net protested descended upon the street. They're interacting with with The trump supporters and we pulled a trump supporter inside and I'm like what's happening Let's let's let's chat you know. Tell me tell me what you think. What do you think about these people industry protested. Em's yet he he asking. Me What has? I support I support these guys. You know I love you guys. What has trump ever done to black people? That's racist like he asked me that and I just sat there and I said. On. Time. You know what I'm saying like. You use. I didn't say in antagonizing way. Right is just like. We sitting there. You Know Tatenda, isn't we? You know having a drink at the bar like man. We ain't got that much. Donald targeted like for real. Like. Are you serious rhino you? Think. He believed that. You think that's just part of the trope that they are on autopilot to say. I think there's some people who are on autopilot. I think There's some people who really do believe it and I think there are some people who are just. They I mean you. They live in a silo. You know they they There's cognitive dissonance. You know what I'm saying like I. Don't it's some people willfully want to ignore it right? And you gotTA UNDERSTAND I. The space that we live in most of the people that we surround ourselves with. They agree with US right. You know what I'm saying like one thing one thing I like about this job. I seek out smart people that disagree with me. You know what I'm saying, so you the Grand Gardner Ku Klux Klan. On their food food nonsense. Like kill all the black babies, and if you ain't on that nonsense, and you really believe in what you believe, and you genuine in it, I and you smart. Let's sit down and have a conversation about where we disagree because. I WANT WANNA. Learn you know what I'm saying, so if you if you a farmer. In the Mid West in all you listen to is conservative. Radio Conservative News Right. You don't know black people right? You don't. You may not have a desire to know any black people, but that's neither here nor there but in your existence. All, what you see on TV of other people is all that you know. And the TV that you watching is telling you that these other people. Really what they say they are. They just clamoring yet. You know you know talking bullshit and so if you grew up in that. How how do you expect one to engage in some sort of internal analysis that can combat the way they were brought up to believe what they believe and senators right. You know what I'm saying, but there's some people out there that. Truly believed that trump. has done nothing racist against black people or minorities. Well, it's you know a lot of them in in my opinion and the type that I grew up with. It's hard to debate them. Because or have a conversation because we were talking about fundamentals of racism, they are talking arguing against who you are as a person. You're ready to colleagues. I can't aim that. The my ideas about the philosophies that you hold on his coming from, but. It's not equal the way we. Right, we'll have one another. That's one issue right like that. What about the internal issues that we have like? While you were in Tulsa and you were seeing the things that were happening and people kind of coming together. Are there. Any elements because I often think that part of our biggest problem is that internally. We have so many. Situations that are divisive. Did you see any. Any of our people, not really for the cause, not really supporting. Our mission or sort of feeling like we need to be quiet. We need to just be happy with what. You've been given in this country. And that's why which is more like southern and. You know not as cosmopolitan in advance. You know not to say that I think people are dumb I just they may have a different way of life than New York. You know we're always reading on the coast. The coast everybody's reading. Everybody's in light. I don't believe that you know what I mean. In terms of our our circle, we know a lot of people I know more people on the coast. Yeah, you know we go into this event. We want to hear this speaker versus when you go like when I go visit family in the south when I go to the south. Nobody's trying to hear a lot of that political shit. Ain't nobody China here. Yeah. That's disagreeable. Enlighten me because I think I think in New York and on the coast there's a false sense of intellectual and moral superiority, not just by liberal white folks, but by light black folks to you know you go to the dinner party in you know you. You read up erected new. Yorker you know for for the first three or four pages, and you think you expert on all things political and social. You know and. And just because you go to an event, the hearing speaker just because you have access to cultural and political. Information doesn't mean that you are culturally and politically informed. Just, because you go to, these things don't mean that that's that that that you understand the way things operate and you know I'm we from the South? You know by I go. I go down to the CRIB. Texas Florida? Not Pilot is on it. You know partners on my fam is on at night may come through a different Lens. may come through a super duper liberal lands, and may come through a lens of Christianity you know may come through a few different lenses, but for the most part. I think. People underestimate. The Kin folks down down South and assume that the folks on the on the coast 'cause you gotTa. You gotTA understand. The. Is Easy to kind of take. What we have for granted here in New York because this state is a blue state. Now just imagine what you gotTa know to be able to combat. Fight in a majority red state, so if you have you if you intellectually advanced and you live in Alabama Mississippi Oklahoma right so I'm down in Tulsa. Bear Smart Kin folks out there that are. Down for about from the hood. To the to the to the upper middle class to upper class, you know I spoke with I. Spoke with Dr Tiffany Crutcher who is the twin sister of of a terrence crutcher who got shot by police officer in two thousand sixteen. She adopted. But she in the hood, the hood recognize her. You know and they. They appreciate stuff that she doing like is is a relationship prosperity right now like you know and I think I. Think George Floyd. was was a moment in history. Where folks just like you know, it's not enough is enough write in in is not not ignoring all of the brothers and sisters that came before him. This was just the one that was just like it took no. Well, I do I agree with your. Assessment. The way you scratch your IRA by me like. My grandfather got bits. Of Legal Scranton. Also. I do agree with that. I think the point that I was making is like like when I travel and I'm outside of. La New, York which obviously also have their problems, not that we don't have racial injustice and we don't have shit down for like Rodney King you know to Sean Bell is not that we don't have like that, but when I go and I travel and I have a sort of. A air right of some of a black person that comes from blue environments and. Having a regard for myself and our attitude like. There's no kowtowing in US right. A grocery store, and there's some white woman behind the counter ringing me up and she's a you know a hillbilly. That wants to be racist I'm above her like she. She's insignificant to me. Winning me up and I think a lot of times I'll look around when I'm in southern areas and I'm like I. See a lot of. Chief that we are exuding as people of color so that we don't sort of Chit over the area. Because you know the way I think an Blad. You said what you said because it is true when I don't off like I'm saying that because I am. I don't know what people are saying now with the south, but whatever they saw I am from has summers in the South African understand south, and I know that there is honor integrity there, but the I think there's also more ignorant ass. hillbillies in the south did in a different way. You have to navigate when you're dealing with uneducated white people bursts the the way we have to navigate when we deal with educated white people who is also a trick bag because they come in distance, but but s molest burlesque. Let's make this clear though that. The the the level of racism is the same between the two of them. So it is different, and so it does warrant a different kind of navigation for sure, but it ain't like one is less than the wall, no for sure. Thousand percent. I, am we? We had an opportunity you and I, and some other comedians to sort of break bread in elaborate. It was virtual, but you know spiritual. Your Yeah Yeah. And I was. So like? Just wanting to hear more and more and more, you know of the stories that you were telling the things that you were giving an again. Apologize here I'd already offered. Police played fortnight with Asha saw. I had to leave. And I was already late with our it. I said I don't WanNa. Do that you. On us but. What are the stories and feel free to share, not share because I know. We went a very safe space so I'm not trying to take anything uncomfortable or Anything that you didn't WANNA share in a more public setting, but there was a conversation that you had with one of the mothers and I won't say who, in case you don't WanNa share, but you had a conversation with one of the mothers in your experience with one of the mothers of the victims of police brutality, and it was the way you illuminated her, and you know we got to see who she was and I was like damn I'd. I'd love to meet this woman. I'd love to get along yellow along. Yeah, Now I! Don't mind. I mean if you, if you Google my name in and you to this story going come up. You're going to see interview. it was MIS- MIS- Valerie Casio. Mother of Landau Casteel, who was shot also in twenty sixty. in his car with his girlfriend in daughter in so. This was the first. of this kind of interview that I you know it's this is. These times are you know? Are Very. Sensitive you know, and and this woman is having to relive this all over again. Because see also lived in the Minneapolis area and that's where her. Son was killed by police officers and So. In. As a correspondent who Once the person you're interviewing to be as comfortable as possible. Especially especially in situations like this You're very careful. You WanNa be sensitive as possible And so an end. This is the time of global pandemic. Right Man I don I prefer not to meet. People were wearing a mask. Already creates a barrier between you and the person that you're speaking to and so. we went up there. I had my mask of rang the doorbell and step back about ten feet right. And in of course, we've already arranged a time that we're supposed to be there, so she knows he's expecting us. She opened the door. See Look frustrated and I'm thinking. I'm not trying to start off like this. You know and I'm like we're not late. I'm trying to figure out that we did come to find out right before we arrive. There was some guests that that that come to visit her, but they were uninvited and you know how. Like you gotta call, you gotTa take. You got the email send a pidgin. You got somebody you know as me. Let me know you coming through and. Sewing up. As she as she lived. In the suburbs right so they like seeing the city. Where are I'm just in the area route? You had to go to and even in route. You had time to let her know that it was coming. She was none too pleased. With the Campo showing up unannounced, and so she came out and she was like man you. A little, bit! Was We'd already introduce ourselves. Dot Cousin, a little bit three minutes in and I don't think she would mind me. Saying this telling their story and I said this casteel is everything okay, she like. ME. The voters show up in my house. I got stuff to do I got to take care of this custom little bit, and she said to the bedroom. Sorry, I'm sorry. You know. I mean I can. I can't cut right acid by. You could. You could say what you wanted to say. Really. Really! As a yes, man, a well a well, I always keep it one hundred and keep a real in my interviews, but these other networks to come here and I keep it real him the real and then I watch my interview on TV and they got me letting lack of punk ass bitch. She said she said so. You telling me I can say what to say? I can be me. I said that's what. I'M NOT GONNA. Tell you anybody else. Okay don't make me look. have any like little bits. That's all I add and. What was at that moment? She became my Auntie. Like my aunt Peggy just same personality is different phase, right? and. And what was interesting is? On the surface, some people would would. Perceive the way that she presented ourselves in that way as crass right, you know. But what if you watch the interview right I watched it man, listen like the. See. I love interviewing and talking to people like that, not just on camera, but just in general in life you engage people that that exists in a balanced way. You know what I'm saying like. They not just not just the the the the Super Duper, organic whole foods. You know what I'm saying, but they also a seatown also down either. I, don't you? You could go in the store. Get you some organic Kale and some fruit loops. Yes. Miss Castio would like. Like powerful, you know intelligent in just just. It was it was a it was a privilege to be to be in her presence in the have that conversation with her one of the things I thought. With the with the interview when I watched it was it was it was the first time I was like? Wow I really pay attention to her. You I'm say and not that I, I was deliberately not, but I think sometimes that the narrative and the things that we're try with once we get other people involved. That's why I'm so. I hate with other people. Get involved in telling our truth because they wanna tell it the way that they want, and they WANNA this passion in there's Aggression inside of us. That's necessary and sometimes when by the time they get finished processing it. All of the heart of it's gone. It's like. This thing that happened to Orlando. Jones and his character being and sold on. The City of God's in. My somebody sent me clips of that and I was like wow, this character is speaking so much lack troops and black. Power and non victimhood in an to fight, and don't turn the other cheek, and so they start to stifle things like that with us, and I felt in that interview I was like why she really. She really Land the real deal. Yeah, and to your point to your point I think there's different ways to approach in the to me the best way to approach. A situation like that interview light. That story like that is to. You're providing a platform for them. Why when you're, you're not, you're not using. Some people will use them for their platform as opposed to giving that person a platform I, people people have told me like. That was a that was an amazing interview and I tell them right off like I I'm grateful. Thank you for the compliment, but I didn't do much. I just I just asked a couple questions and I, and I sat back, and I was a very attentive listener because I was very much interested in what she had to say. I mean I would say this, though I think you did do a lot and I think the thing that you did is why the reason not everybody can be comic. Not Everybody can be a journalist. Not Everybody can be the person that is there to. Give in brings forth life and things because some people have it inside them right so she's got to be comfortable you have to. Just trust you. She has Robert Right, right. All the she doesn't seem. I take a woman that connects. With nonsense you know. I really I hats off to you because I mean I watched that so many of the first time I watched it I. was like Oh? My God Am I. Crying said you know, and I couldn't understand because I wasn't A. I'M GONNA. PUT THE LINCOLN I want everybody to watch the video. The interview. It wasn't something that was to promote you to cry. Like sometimes you know it's the things where they show you all this and here, the new violins and Slowed hander in it was that was like. Listening. Trying to figure out like why I'm not like tears are just coming down. My Eyes adding naturally. It was so incredible it really was. What do you think now? What does now hold for you because? You're so great at doing this. Are you going to like, does it? Comedy is going to you know I was thinking about like with the pandemic and things I had a special. That was already. You know. I was supposed to be taping and. That to the wayside, obviously mostly because most of the network. But you know it's like I. I was like well. Part of it is like. Why am I doing? Album is because I have that material and I really wanted to get out, but I'm like. I have no interest in any of that material. That was there because this is. A different yeah, I mean. My mom material was will bother with my life. Anyway. Everything was about my life, and what I'm dealing with my perspective, but now because I'm like that as a comic. My life is seeing the heavy lind's of being. You know an adult like we're. Adults is our time. We supposed to get that. We worked really hard for to get you so that we can enjoy being adults in this time, and now it's about to be fraught with. You know sickness pandemics than racial inequality and injustice in. It's like said I don't want my I. Don't like I'm in my forties on nonsense. You know all want to have a bad time. We think we ain't going backwards. You're not going to be twenty two years. Two years we'll be fifty something I. Don't have time to waste this time so I got. How I only way I know how to move. This time is to talk about it and put it in my comedy in the leave. Some type of stamps that meet me at a stop provoking that allows us to have some freedom, and so all of its changing would what's going on I? Know You I know you like well. I got to do something right 'cause you gotta speak speaking as a journalist, but you also a comedian. What's what's the comedy doing with? What's happening with that? Yeah, I mean it even before code with hit and the five four significant beginning in in five racial equality happen It was tough for me to get do stays time anyway, because travel a lot with vice, and you know how to comedy world worked. You will ask for your veils a month in advance. And you know when Minneapolis hit. I was on the plane the next day. Right you know, and so you don't WanNa. Be that comic that. That That just cancelled all the time so before. Like before pandemic. It was. You know Booker's hit me up and say. Would you have to be in town today? And, if I'm in town and I go hit the state so I don't. I don't intend to abandon the state especially now because. I've traveled and I've seen like you know been arrested twice. I've been the Berlin. You know there's stories. They're they're you? The more you see, the more you grow The more you want to share that experience with the world you know, and so I, you know. I got I. Definitely got enough material still writing, you know. Who knows when we'll be able to get back on stage in in what is people getting state now? I'm like, not it. Say Mike I. Don't. Be Mouth on the my in. Walk stayed with acting the LYSOL spray off, You're. Going to be bringing their own mighty. In, cases like sticks to the Pool Hall. Go ahead own personalized Mike already. See your. Data would look Yom thing on and. Right now. Arou-. But like I you know none light. Stayed in. You know in that in In that arrest you get, and I think was happening in the world. Once once people start having feel comfortable, being in shows like that full go on it. They need to hear from US right. Now a lot of pain. and. There's not an outlet. Turn that pain into something else you. Can Go to church. You can go to comedy Clo- now. You you so again or you got a fellowship outside and ain't nobody trying to the break dance to Jesus all up and down in the. Break this season in the hot. Sun. Suited No. You know that only sweat off because. I think with us being not being outside, and I think nature and the elements has almost autocorrect yourself to a certain extent. We had a storm yesterday. It was the most beautiful storm, and I've never seen it. Is like double, rainbow, D-. I was like. Why is it so like? It was a country storm countries storms with. Heavy rain. And Rainbow come up. Got They got, they got That's what I really think. I really think that the the animals not this real. May into go by you know. They got all kinds of squirrels wildlife in central park right now. You like. He's in folks now. Who adopted dogs. That ain't never thought about having a dog 'cause. People can't be with themselves young. Let's say cat cat. You know Pat Brown. Pants like I've been trying to get to get a cat at the back of about Obama, get a Cam. Get A cab and get academy candidate cat as she. This is the third time she told me she said. I need a companion. I need to get a cat and I said petless. Go get you get not if you tell me what. Wall Street. Does he get one? He's we're I. Think she's waiting until we. We can really get back out into, so she can go see. Ratto humane society. Needs to be adopted over there, and they need to be adopted by a crazy people like me. I mean we're. Going to go back ain't got no money. act. That was tracy. I know. Peg I've. Got No money. All the time I'd be like packing, you will give me a as they give me a fish box fish. Heavy? Air. But, before we. Step because I have a two or three things that really two things. Ain't got nowhere to go. To sort of wrap up like all the stuff with vice new things that you've been joining and and and will call sign that like. When we talk about defunding the police when all how they have. Immunity end all taxpayers are the ones that really pay these lawsuits to the families you know. Civil civil courts and things like that. What do you think with? The work that you've been doing the things that you've seen. What do you think really is the the solution? Is it the funding? What do you think will help? Our, thinking a think what gets? lost. In many times in many stories like this, is you see the headline you know defunding police and people just assume that all of the money is going to be taken from the Police Department and by snap finger police just disappear in is going run rapid, and even the people who are advocates for abolishing the police entirely recognize that it's not just never finger, and they disappear right most of these folks. That I moderated a conversation between A person who is wants to reform the police, a person who wants to completely abolish. And by the end of the conversation, we recognize that the two of them really wanted the same thing. Except for the person that wants to abolish religion, is it that the efforts of the reformer is is what's should happened leading up to abolish me. So you. Being out in the field. I've spoken to people who are in the streets targeted about reforming defunding in abolishing and. What you don't necessarily hear or see definitely in the headlines, is the solution right so chancellor lease abolish the police defunding police. And you see the headline, people react to that and you know not not not many folks I'm not gonNA. Make General statement like that, but some people don't go. You know extra step actually reading a figure it out, and so there's. A efforts to do community control policing right so the community is in charge of who gets hired who gets fired. WHO's the police chief? Rosa responsibilities in conjunction with like mental health professionals because you know. I've been stopped by the police. Because my my tail, my the light on my license plate is out right in. It wasn't, but they wouldn't even let me go around and then see. They just told me. That, it was out. And they approached the car with a gun. You know what I'm saying and I'm like. Brad. This isn't like this this. This is the sitting people talking about. Right, here in a to a mother things but. If. If you can't, if you perceive everything to be a threat, you get a call to a house and you know the person is mentally challenged. And you come out drawn your guns and there's no one there trained. To handle the situation or to speak to someone with that condition in in U. S. six months six months academy. This person is in the projects in the hood and you grew up in Long Island. New, York, so not only. Is there a disconnect between the two cultures? You young only been out. You know only been trained for six months, and this person has a serious mental condition that you are not equipped to deal with. Right and so when it comes to community control policing, these are some of the things that the community wants. Address. And so I think. The way that the police system exists now. People are like not. We can have that normal in these to be something else now. The degree to was that something else is is where the contention comes in. You know yeah I mean I'm I'm every day. I'm taking my steps to be a little more considerate to the fact that. They will have to be some sort of coming together. Because all I, don't you know? This whole idea of threatens excuses so much things that they just say just because they wanna say them, and and the fact that there's no humanity whenever a person of color encounters a police officer, which should not be the case. You should be able to ask questions. Ask why you're being detained. You should be able to the things that they. It is things that they are supposed to do, and they just don't do so when. I am A. I'm one of those people that is closer to abolish the police. Even though I know, we need some level of protection. I know that what we have right now is not working for us. I. Will say you know I'm watching. They're saying that you know gun. Violence has gone up over twenty percents and the last month or two and they have. The police commissioner. Who is like you can just look at that man. You can just look at him until he is a stone cold bona fide racist. A racist. You can see it in the skin. You got little every time I see white men with that sorta like read sorta like Baker Santan! And and you know, and it's a shame because we don't we we often times. Everybody gets pushed into white or black, and then we could get. There was a time in this country when a person with the last name Oj was also considered to be a minority in disenfranchised and a person. WHO's last name? Was You know? Jonah or some shit like. everybody's white. So as going up twenty percent or Twenty seven extra cases or something like that. And he's like. Yeah, well, you know we we need help. And this is what he has a smirk on his face. Because it's happening at a time where we are saying, we don't need police as sometimes they're. Trickery is to allow things like this to happen or promote that things like this are happening that are running rampant crime is going up all these other things, and it's because you guys have stopped us from being. We are when essence we have it, you know. Would essence the defunding police from what I know it to be is the demilitarisation of the police riots with all this excess of guns they haven't. Equipment that they should only need in a war. At when you're going to you, know Miss Barbara's house because you know junior acting up again. You know it's like. Yeah. Because even I agree because even. When I was down Minneapolis covering the protests. I was I was just I. Just kind of sat back. I wasn't a journalist wasn't a protester out I just was watching. Step outside myself when I watch. And I'm thinking. Okay. Many of these these riot police, they they. They say that they're there to keep the peace. But there are two parties here. There law enforcement in there. The protesters and only one of the parties is arm. You know what I'm saying. You numb. You come wearing a gun, not just not just your standard issue, you law, you come with semi automatic rifle, you come. Bulletproof vests Yukon seal. You come baton. You come helmet, right? and. People on the other side. They got a state. Posible right right. We, didn't. Molotov cocktails being thrown at the police? And so for for you to say. It was a trip because you saying you there to keep the peace, but you bring in all the weapons of violence. Yeah. And their counterparts Hoople, those white people that believed there was a guy. That had RPG I hadn't seen RPG I was looking for one and grand theft auto the other day. I couldn't find what price because this guy had it. There's no reason for billion to have RPG's Y Y. What is what if you don't? That's much force. Demolish a bill to tear down a building if you had an RPG begun like that the the way that they are able to weaponize not even just as the police, but as white people in general. I watched a video last night and it brought me to tears because we're subject to any time. That's what has to change. Is that anytime? White person decides that they don't like what black person is doing. They can call the cops, yeah. Something wrong in that. And instead of trying to determine what's happening by asking both parties. What me get your statement? Let you get your statement. From the White Party and then whatever the White Party has said that the Black Party has done. The Black Party is automatically arrested putting the cuffs or told me get that on the grass. It's like. A complete beliefs and whatever the white person is saying. And those things when I watched this young black father yesterday in his car, and he's going out of like a Walmart you know sometimes. There's lights before you get into. and. There's some pool while you're building. Woman comes up her bonus cycle and says that he stole her car. And he does his car, but she just comes up and says reckless now his car, the he's in with his two children, young children, being surrounded by other white men who have come up now and kicking in the car and nobody's doing any investigation. Nobody's asking for the cops to come to mediate none of this normally. Yeah, I mean Brianna Taylor is a prime example of. At, what point do we go? Look like. An? People. George Floyd. We got inciting we. We also were all sitting at home. During a pandemic, we are in the second stage of opening up New York. City I have hardly anything about protests anymore. I have hardly seen anything about people. It is so easy for everyone else to forget that we are struggling when they go back to business as usual. And I wanted to make sure we don't go back to business as usual salk if they go back to business as usual. And we are not aggressive enough. I'm. Being. The you suggest that everyday people being St Martin. I'm not with the marching shit I'm sorry I, you know. When you say when you say, we need to maintain a certain level of aggression to to keep attention on on the inequality. What does that aggression look? Well! Let's put it like this right like these lobbies like the Italians able to move right. They were able to get political power things like that, and they were able to three h things mobs, and that whatever for whatever reason those mobs above the law, they part of also organized crime is also. In intertwined with police in the latch is a certain regard that we have for Italian. You don't walk with them, 'cause. If you fuck with them, they will hurt. Well regard for us like that because you can watch man put his knee on a man's neck for eight minutes and forty success and the most. Do like you, said show up with cardboard states I. Don't disagree. Tell me I, disagree. I think I think showing up in the streets with sticks poster board. That's just one branch. Of the protest, the other branch I mean you got. You got like I think I. Think you know you may disagree but I think. local politics also no I agree with that. No, what I'm saying and if and if police. Are GonNA exist. Before they get funded or before they get a exist. Then Kim folks need to be police? But Kin folks while you know skill, right? AM! Begging, yes! Come on stay with me. A word. Get a call me I know you did I do to pitch? So an it like a prime example, not the not to be tudent stories have done but You Ain't gotta hold nothing back. It was two three whatever you gotta say. Said Keith Keith. Lamar Scott nother brother Charlotte North Carolina now shot and killed by police in the parking lot of an apartment complex. Folks took to the street. In Charlotte and they they didn't go to the hood, they took it uptown. Took, they took the protests uptown to where the money is. And they ended answers from from the police g from the city council. Come outside and talk of. They weren't to beat nobody up. They were just like you. Tell me, why would a man get shot in the parking? Lot of an apartment complex right and he is done nothing. How how? How has this come to beat? Like just just come out here and off. The US and nobody talked to them. Nobody came out and talked to. They took to the streets. In, Charlotte up and one of the main leaders of the protest. Ended up running for city council at large in one. and. Charlotte, as city voted out the old white guard in voted in a mostly young Brown and black city. Council mayors black. The city council is majority, Brown and Black Young. The sheriff's black. The the police chief black. The city planner is black so when it comes to resumning and all that city planner on. China China against. Destroy the remnants of the legacy that was built on segregation. The city that was like Charlotte was literally built on segregation. They designed it to where the rich Lil one place or live in another place why? and. A lot of people don't know. Charlotte is second largest city in the United States. They got a lot of money bank of America, Wells Fargo. They're all of that, so they have the money. And they have the leadership. Now with those two components do they have the will and the power to fix the inequities of the past and so essentially, Charlotte is a real time real life example of what happens when protesters take their passing from the streets to the ballot box. Is happening in real time before. So. I cannot say anything negative about that. But I say that I. Still You know you will pick the some goes. I don't want us to pick up guns. That's that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is the fact that we don't is why we are I'm not promoting violence, but I'm just being I'm just telling you what it is if we have seen. When? The the massacre in Tulsa was white people, picking up guns and destroying and tearing up in an harming. They are very aggressive when they approach us, they don't approach us with the United speak to you for a second about my humanity. They kill us and we don't kill them back. So that's only common sense I. Don't have to be a promoter of anything because I think what happens is a lot of times when we say that when we remind people that that's happening, they go your. Oh you're killing none. No, it's as many white men had died at the hands of black police officers that black people die at the hands of white police officers I. Aaron t these same guys would have. They would go to the House of whoever it was, and they would kill them. Yeah, yeah, and as I mean it's it's. It's been that way for a long time and in in black folks. We have to be the ones that are. For lack of a better term passive in the reaction to the violence perpetrated against us because. Did he know what I'm saying? Not, but you understand the context in which I'm saying like in in those circumstances is like. If you. If you if you return that violence is not seeing. Is Not seen as you defending yourself. But why do we care? That's why I. Don't truly cares because the people that would see you, not not yourself. Also the enemy and the enemy is never going to see you the way you need right, but then, but then that goes back to your earlier question that you asked me. How, how? Internally within the full. How are we handling this situation? 'cause if you try. If you try to get, get off, can focus on board for revolution like that and good luck. Possible. because. You know. Honestly, I have to. I'm I'm asking you right now. I needed to come on month. Abdul a whole part, too, because I wanted to bring in. I think you are somebody that I trust and have the conversation about black women and black men when it comes to ladder. We need I wanted to. States we need to have. Right now at all. And then even in even we could get into this whenever I. Come back on, but Like. Black Trans Right. Black Gray and being and this is something that that I'm negotiating myself. As we speak right because I don't. I have the I. Have An immense amount of respect for the Trans Community Gay community, but I don't I and I'll be the first one to say I don't I don't I? Don't understand, trans. You know what I'm saying. That doesn't. That lack of understanding it doesn't make me afraid. You know what I'm saying that lack of understanding makes me want to to know more to understood to to get to know N. providing a space where like the me, extending them respect. That's hands down. I ain't got to understand for all its it and the thing about it is i. think is a place of like being right where people think they have. Human being a human being there doesn't need. Yeah? Notice another human being that. You're encountering right and. An and that and that in itself warrants respect, right and equal treatment. Just all top you in human being now. Now in order for me to attempt to empathize with with. Your struggles and all of that like I just. Let's chat about. Let's talk about it. You know. Let's talk a with. I'm talking about within the within the black community Yom's. No. Intersectional things that need to be even it has to be talked about from lack of women to lack trans women as well because station. There's also a disconnect. That is happening there. You know you know I'm going to have s Madison. I think in about two weeks, and and the things that she talked about and the things. He is eliminated for me when it comes to black. Female Trans has like. I'm like. Oh, I need to be speaking those sisters, too, because you're. We start, people start to bog down well. That's not natural. That's not my choice and they just trying to do this and they're trying to do that. I think there's a lot of things that have been set up against the the black community, but an end, and maybe the the the demasked relation of black men is is a thing that's happening, but I'm not GonNa sit there and throw that on a person that has has a feeling and understanding that there. They were not born in the body that they were supposed to be born in and that want to identify who they want identified. It is not our place to be judge. And I think that the things I've seen with just women, black women were trans and murder rates in suspected. Nobody's talking about it. And he murdered left and right and up and down, and this and that and I think we. Can you know I think some people like well? We don't WanNa talk about that. Now it's like no, we can talk about how black people to be disproportionately murdered by the police, and also how there's a person out here of people out here, murdering and making black, female trans feel unwelcome or unsafe. Yeah, I don't think. I don't think we don't have the luxury to do at the time now everything has to be. You're not gonNA add no other. No other other shit on like some people WANNA POW other outside community like we didn't where everything black right now, because black was being killed now. If you want to talk about this shit, you're shit. Will be stopped by killing you right? Everybody who not being killed. All you see is black people standing up? So I'm sorry, I had I had a moment where I became. A. Second, I jumped out. Come on. It's tough because you know the thing that. I've been getting a lot of responsible I'm glad you're here. I've been getting a lot of pushback. Just from black male friends of mine. Who are like you come on with all this black men. And? I have deliberately not mission black men to an extent other than to the extent that they are affecting us right or black women's esteem or regard and I'm trying to. I'm trying to get black women to understand that we we have to stop asking people or quieting. That will not be loved and asking people to love us because there's a business. That we put on ourselves when we he asking. Because when you ask you, ask somebody, don't get fucked or doesn't necessarily care. Your response is GonNa be sought as such right is gonNA be. Will you ain't fuck you and? So that's a longer compensation I'm so proud of everything that you've done even though you think you coming on your checking me. Which Shit? Really shared such a such. Great information I know everybody would be so proud of the things that you shared in the things that you said. I am. I hope that. We are able to. Get, that sort of community that the like would they were able to Charlotte is we can do that because I think there's a lack of understanding even on my end and I think I. Know a lot. I can't even fathom like how to get people organized for us to make changes changes like that. I don't I, don't I? Think? Part of the problem, is we we look at. We look at the mountain, and we look at that wall made out of Senator Cinderblocks Briggs, you know. All sorts of you know. Draw. Whatever's made out of and just you look at it. You stand back and you look at how massive it is. And in that moment, you discouraged right and. I think the. Discouraging to because if you if you listen to Richard Pryor back in the day. If you, if you you know you, look at the reason why folks is marching in the sixties, you listen to these speeches and you like. Like. Only thing that's changed in the fashion and the hairstyle. Earn a said, and so you look back at that, and then you have your moment and you rightfully justifiable you go to your emotional chamber, but then in a certain point you get tired of feeling like that, too like you know the. Hammer I'm tired of being sick and tired and so. The the what's the alternative? To do nothing. Because that's you know what's GonNa Happen if you do nothing, but we ain't for show. What's going to happen if we do something? And so I think both. Was You know the nonprofit organization in Oh that that'd be scraping. They low change in the SOFA the allied. They've been chipping away at the wall. You know they've been chipping away and then something like you know. The the the protest movement that was that was sparked by the police killing George Floyd. that. That was a sledge sledgehammer. Took a big chunk out. And now at some folks. That have seen the big chunk, and they were standing back and they was like old nine. Oh Shit. I ain't even really know right the wall down like that riot. To See people they. And they look big accident, but now now I can see it you know did. Jesse Jackson, say if you. If you can see, you can see it if you believe that you can achieve assumption. Rats that live round when it's. Yes some Ri- would achieve. In believe, but you can't. You can't imagine something less. You seen the yourself or Self, and so now people are recognizing will shit I I really I ain't never really been one protests, but. I'm going to get out there now and somebody. Somebody was thinking I always thought about. The police should have been de-fund a long time ago, but I ain't really had the courage to say it because people were shocked me out of the room and think I was crazy. People have taken one step forward. You know what I'm saying and so whether you was in the back now you close used in the front. Now. You now you. You got the you got Mercedes' up in that you know what I'm saying. Yes, I'm I'm encouraged. I still I still get pissed. I. Still Get frustrated, I? Don't think I fully processed. We know what happened to me in Minneapolis and toes, but That's a whole `nother show, but I I I I was in the street and I saw young people. I'm talking about those the academe. Some of them in the same body. You know young brother. May Why y'all essay. The destruction of the property is seems like it's antithetical to the spirit of what is protests to be man as you look at me. He said man if we were now his step in, they wouldn't do not. The only reason, the only reason they listening to us because we are here stepping. Moody told Me Yeah. You know, and so you got the folks out. Town thank you. Thank you to him for checking your ass. You try to check me. Stabbing lay. Seven yeah, and so you got. And then you gotTA. Folks didn't suit entire. Assuming tied. An event by by Bob so. Like. I'm in I'm in. I'm encouraged but I agree with you like we got. We got to keep the fire burning. You know and and. In Was Industry But like you against those a long way to get back to where you saying like. You you a comment, but you more than common. But that's your. That's your. That's your foundation from which you exists professionally right, but. We get on here and we're talking about some real shit yeah. We're GONNA. We're GonNa Cadillac Jack, you. Know what I'm saying a little bit like. We always go all joking there, right? We like. Joking there before got to understand that. Just because we comics don't mean the court jester rag none I'm saying. Don't don't don't don't come this way talking about. Shut up and just tell jokes now that. I got ear wasn't jokes in animal was in real estate in it. And the journalist Anna comment I'm GONNA provide a platform for other people to tell their story like miscast deal. You know her her stars and let the and let the do the trump supporter him. Tell his equally the same because I. WanNa hear what everybody got sick. Yeah, you know those those two young sisters. Do you you share their story to and what they have been doing in the cleanup's and all of that? Is just. I mean I couldn't have asked for a better conversation I definitely want to have you back next month. I'm going to organize that because I've been seeing that. In the end route. We were in rules I've I've I want to have a conversation with black men? humbly as I can still have to represent. Stand up for my sister's in and what we're going through, but I think a conversation definitely needs to be had and we need to listen, so I'm I'm open to? Listening and see how I can. It's a bringing us. You know, bring us together. Yeah, and The. I'm working on a story about A. Mental health too. That's that's. That's an important aspect that intersects with. The relationship between men, black men, black women trends. You know all of that. While I'm down. I'm down. All right I'll have you. Move. A. Principal I eighty camera and nobody seeing the. You know and everybody listening to watch. This is Angie Tube because we all stuck inside Hashtag alone together Matang is. has asked that you ain't been washing them enough. What can they anticipate I know not really out back yet, but what can. Where can they find you? Where can they anticipate anything else from you? All of this stuff that all the stories that I do Opposed on on on my instagram page either like a teaser. Or if it's you know depending on how long it is actually posted on ide-. TV. As a story But. On Youtube or you just Google also sleigh vice youtube, just google slave is Eugenie. A playlist of all the stuff that I've done comes up. Including that documentary is actually a a forty five minute dot. The one about Charlotte called You can go to youtube wash that for the freaky right now. They give us three stepdaughters pandemic. It. You can't go pick up some free knowledge. You all have sailed. And then the so for after this pandemic. Why I listen I gotta go. Take me a zoom where I'll play right now there's. Rather do. Is Three. No it's. Not Breach my training. She may have reduced the prices, but she didn't eliminate the. defunding of, balance. I, love you so much, brother. What went on here and I know they're going to they just to eat. This episode of you gave us so many gyms and I can't wait to have you back on A. Serious conversation down so I write by. PRESENTED ANYTIME This has been retin Raven with Yama Meka.

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Little Boxes Made of Ticky Tack

The Information's 411

32:13 min | 7 months ago

Little Boxes Made of Ticky Tack

"Abby Friday everybody the Information Four. One your weekly podcast from the information dot com a news site covering the tech industry and all other industries that are being transformed by the rapidly evolving world of technology. My name is Tom Dotan. I'm the host of the show Most of the time we have other people sub in. But usually it's me and I'm also a reporter at the information so we've got a different episode for you this week. Normally I talked to or someone else does talks to a couple of reporters who wrote some of the big stories wrote during the week and we give it behind the scenes. Look on how it was put together and other elements that give you a deeper understanding of what we wrote about this week though. It's something very different. We have two segments and first off. It is going to be Corey. Weinberg one of our reporters who's talking to connor a reporter at the New York Times. Who recently wrote a book about the Housing Crisis in California and why this has been such an unsolvable problem and it is exacerbated so much by the laws and personalities and just general nature of California and the reason. We're having this on the show at one because connor you know is a friend of the show and we love to support other people who do great work but there's a lot about technology in his book that really explains why. Silicon Valley and the rise of the tech industry has been both a major cause of the housing PR problem. But also you know the people within the tech industry who feel that. They're trying to solve it. Corey writes a lot about this topic and so he and Connor had an excellent and long conversation about About his book which by the way it's called Golden Gate so that's the first segment of the show. And then second off we have Jessica Interviewing Robin Murdoch of accenture and that conversation was part of our sponsored partnership with the firm. We are working with accenture on events in London and Japan in the coming months. Stay tuned for more details and this conversation with Robin is about their data and studies about autonomous vehicles and trends in the autonomous driving world. And how consumers would react to various technologies. So it's a different show but it's still a very good one. That's a long intro. Let me just get now to the first off. Conversation with Connor and Corey. We have in in house. Connor Doherty Report York Times Connor just came out with the book. This week that we dealt with a particularly important topic for For our audience to grapple with and that's about the state of Bay Area Housing Connors Book is called Golden Gates that have a subtitle fighting for housing in America. Okay it's finding for housing in America all of America and we're we're supposed to be learning about sort of sort of an American housing fight through the Lens of cal sort of Understanding California and as I'm sure your listeners know anyplace that this was a large tech cluster or even really acknowledge cluster. Even finance. There is housing problem. I mean just good on the list rates. Seattle Portland Austin Minneapolis. I mean just pick it and this problem though not as bad as the area is there and I actually did travel a lot for the book. Went to Minneapolis Vancouver. I went to a bunch of different places. Boston and I ended up leaving a lot of that stuff out and the reason was this is ultimately a local problem. It's a local problem with national implications. When you start asking the question how do I solve this? Where can I make a difference? Where can tech companies? Whoever engage their side of this debate it turns out that the local legislators place right and I think the reason why I think your book add to and I finished just finished last weekend. Sort of devoured it. This is the subject. I'm super interested in reported on it myself before but it provides sort of a sort of knitting together of a bunch of different policy threads over mostly the last half century that I think you sort of Bay area people particularly those with money and are trying to think about how to influence policy. Should UNDERSTAND IT. Chanel it totally. Well you know it's funny. The whole your readers will or your listeners will like this story. The whole book started when I was. I used to cover Google for a brief few about eighteen months for the New York Times and I was talking. I was interviewing Jeremy. Stop lament about his favorite subject with the. Yes Jeremy Stop on the subject. I was interviewing him. Otis favorite subject. Which is how much he hates Google. And then at the end of the interview. I just Kinda O'hare super into housing stuff which is a subject. I'm very interested in the berries and such about spot and he goes. Yeah I actually gave money to this woman. Sonia Trout's she runs. This group called BARF and I thought this is Kinda odd if you've met Jeremy he's not kind of a cookie. He's a pretty serious guy doesn't he's not talking about singularity and things like that you know what I mean. He's he's a pretty kind of just comes off like a typical CEO and just the idea that a publicly the sea of a publicly traded company would be making his first foray into local politics through group called BARF. I mean it's the guy with hundreds of millions of dollars. It just seemed like this is weird for one in for to this just shows you how desperate this situation is desperate for a new kind of conversation a new kind of political kind of constituency. And so I actually actually this the whole story. Some extent originates with tech in the sense that they're the ones who really accelerated this political movement right and really the the central threat of the book is about the rise of a political movement and sort of the struggle to maintain it and sort of attract donors and create like a real infrastructure around it. But we should probably back up and sort of understand sort of why political movement was sort of necessary in the first place. Like you write a lot about history in this book you write a little bit about the nineteen sixties postwar growth period in California. Pat Brown was governor. And there's this great quote I remember about sort of how when they were trying to create and fund a system of Dams California to grow the water supply. Pat Brown said of course. Why wouldn't we invest in something that would help grow the state you know that would be that would create enough water for more people to live in California. How did we get to a point in the twenty first century where that same mindset isn't taken to housing so I think what happened is in the bay area and a lot of other places? There was a big pivotal event in the bay area. In the fifties and sixties called the freeway revolts and actually spread to Seattle. And all these other places where large tech industries have congregated and I mean at that time developers were doing crazy stuff they were going to fill in the San Francisco Bay They were The Geary Boulevard. Which have a you know? It's just a kind of looks giant freeway in the middle of the city and they did build a giant freeway in front of the ferry building in San Francisco although the earthquake knocked down. And so all these big fights over what were genuinely bad projects. And then they backlashed and backlashed. In my estimation a little too much because it's now impossible to build anything and I think what we Kinda fast spoke by the seventies people realize is a big problem. There's multiple books. Certainly a lot of academic papers about California and other kind of prosperous places. Seattle again. These kinds of tech hubs are starting to have a housing problem. It wasn't that bad yet. So it's kind of go with sort of annoying. That costs a lot to live here. But I'll deal with it and what the it's fascinating to me is fascinating to me when people start recognizing album how much they can anticipate about it. Sometimes people are so right about things. This guy's this one guy wrote a book in the seventies where he says this is going to be an almost impossible problem to solve because people the constituency of people who you need to fight for more housing people who don't live somewhere yet right which is just think about that. It's like this crazy puzzle so when I met Jeremy in that kind of fateful interview now he was fighting he was funding. Someone who was trying this woman. Sonia trials WHO's this insane character? She's a high school teacher who You know shows up to city council meetings in leggings and cowboy boots and kind of BERATES. Everyone and says you guys have housing. You know and gives this public comment. One time and people started commenting on our leggings inch. These are sweet these raucous scenes at these city council meetings and it was like this is kind of this person trying and I would be not surprising that it would be kind of a crazy person trying to do something that had never been done before because who else would try that right. Typically the People's ever you know sort of speaking out at City Council meetings or board a supervisor meetings were people who work directly for real estate developers or property developers where the consultants that we're trying to get a project forward or the neighbors are trying to get a project blocked totally in it's always it's always this developers like you should build this so easy to dismiss them and wants normal people. Start showing up to these meetings. This helps create this thing and by the way I mean other tech companies have really like layered onto this. I mean stripes I ever a corporate donation was to this group. California Yembi California means run by game. Brian Hanlin who when I first met him was working a desk job at the. Us Forest Service kind of showing up to meetings with Sonia. So it's been amazing to me to see how you know. The accelerate of tech money has has kind of propelled this local movement. We don't actually see the big companies getting into this though. I mean although they've started to facebook Google apple have all pledged but they don't really go. Mix It up and logo POL politics. They're giving you Google Apple facebook. They've given money essentially to jumpstart affordable housing construction or sort of gifts. That are broadly safe. Safe Yeah Yeah exactly so. I guess my question about this book. Because we're now you see you traced the history and it's an agonizing history of of sort of understanding why we have such an affordability crisis in California and you really lay it out. I think is sort of a really a policy choice. We've made sort of federally statewide and locally Yeah Yeah I think I mean. Housing is this. A LOT OF PEOPLE. Don't like this. But housing is a heavily government regulated industry. You know if you think about it. The number of times businesses either don't even know if they're breaking the law or or just do break the law or get caught for breaking law and just keep breaking the law. You can't just go build like a building randomly in the middle of somewhere. There's no like hacking your way out of this crisis. You know there's no there's no there are some things you can do attack which we can talk about in the second. There's modular housing. There's been a ton of you've obviously let everybody on writing about this and of course some of the potential pitfalls of this sure but you know this is a problem that yes it's political choice also. It's a choice that I just don't see a way out of it other than like just kind of straight up getting interested in local politics and that's really annoying to people who try to have like very large vision for things right. But you know when you if you think about what happened in America. We are housing policy. Essentially where how and at what cost we build. Shelter is by and large determined by like a million little city. Councils I mean there are obviously large federal programs that fun things whatnot but a lot of the real action on. How do we solve housing problems? In America is at this hyper local level and I think it makes it kind of a vexing problem for variable and I think the sort of right in your reporting and writing about the rise of the NB movement kind of this broad you know those people that really couldn't be organized before because they didn't exist. There is now particularly grown out of San Francisco a young renters. You know a lot of them work intact. That are organized are influencing state. Legislators like Scott Weiner you know kind of pushes or these giving him cover as he tries to push for state legislation that would up zone cities or these parts of cities but I I kind of walked away from the book. Wondering is this story about how this movement is struggling like like. Where are we today because Sony? Trust the woman you cover the fact that she lost her supervisor race you you write a lot about Senator State. Senator Scott Weiner and his bill continues to be shut down on on on the state side. So should I walk away from the pessimistic about this? No totally optimistic and the reason. You should be optimistic though. This doesn't sound very optimistic is that we're talking about it. So every major Democratic presidential candidate has released housing plan that appears to have never happened before the housing plans all have they vary informed but they all have a decent zoning component. So that's you know whether or not that's as radical as if the obviously it's not but they're all saying this is a problem that we don't build enough. Housing is a problem. So I think that You know I think that where we are is. The conversation has been opened. You know not to spoil it but I closed the book with you know. Here's person who kind of Sonia kind of kicked the door open and whether or not should be the one to go through you know I mean and you see this not to not to play to your audience too. But they're the tech. History is littered with first. Movers did not become the the predominance kind of platformer what happened my space facebook. Whatever right right and you see the same in politics. There's all sorts of examples of some person coming along. Really you know really firing everything up being a little unpalatable and then other people. Adopting their best ideas if Bernie Sanders of just to continue the analogy. If he is never elected president people will still be for history books talking about him forever as if he was this guy who really moved in even I mean. Maybe I shouldn't talk about that when it looks like he could be a Democratic presidential nominee. But I'm just saying there's a super long history of the person who kicked open the door not being the person who walks through and I think that this story is about you know this issue coming on the radar and the people who kind of brought it out. I should also say there's a lot of other like really rich stories in this book You know there's this nun sister Christina. And she's like this multimillionaire. Who's got this weird morality in how she invest and not not weird but she goes and buys buildings before hedge funds investors can get to them and she's got this vow shall not evict edict follows. And there's all these characters and they're all they're all out there trying to solve this problem the way they think they should be soft now. The I'm curious. I read this book. Right after. Reading Anna Wieners Uncanny Valley. What her memoir about working at get hub and working tech industry. There's a there's a very brief threat in that book where she describes sort of technologists and entrepreneurs interest in city building Robert Moses building cities from scratch in special economic zones. That has been well documented. You know well-documented trend in the tech industry is that a. What did you did you walk away from reporting on the messy -Ness of California housing thinking? We need more entrepreneurs thinking about Fresh starts in this way or or is that or did you walk away with that thinking that this approach is is not well-founded I well I can tell you. My people should experiment all sorts of things that they wanna put up that kind of capital and build a house like in the middle of the day. I mean where you're gonNA build that city in the desert. Where's that going to be? Who's going to pay for the infrastructure? They're all so there. Are these very practical questions. I should say though that fundamentally the reason I don't believe in that vision but I may turn out to be wrong. Is that it kind of leads to this question. Do the companies make the city or the city make the companies and I think that these big complicated metro areas are what give rise to these companies. If divorce them from it they will no longer be successful. One of the things I have been saying a lot of interviews is people often portray whether it's Seattle or San Francisco the tech world as this kind of outside force. I mean I'm not saying everybody does that but you'll hear this old. They're you know they're coming with their buses. They're these big companies and Mark Zuckerberg moved here from Harvard. Or whatever right but it's like industry is not some outside force is a creation of this region. It is a result of you. Don't more than a century of investment in universities like Stanford and Berkeley. It is the result you in John. Mark off my former colleague at the New York Times with this great book about how you cannot divorce the Internet from Kind of the counterculture. There was this symbiosis. We're kind of the sixties counterculture meshed with the kind of computer research that was being done at Stanford to create the modern Internet. So I think that this place and or in other places Seattle whatever I think. Those places are so fundamental to who those companies are and And I think that if you went and built a regulation free city or whatever you know y combinator somebody is thinking about i. I don't I don't think it would work. I think in this case. The friction makes the company not the lack of and last question. What's what's the way forward. I mean what are the? This is not a solutions. But you don't have a chapter at the end that says here's the way forward for housing. You know you're you're kind of looking at the reporters Lens I think and and trying to I think you are you in the book. You definitely make calls. You definitely are kind of putting your neck on the line. In terms of what sort of policy what the policy ramifications were of certain decisions over the years. And maybe what some ways forward might be but you. I wanted like a clear answer almost and and I'm curious if so if you read obviously you've read a lot of policy books and if you read policy book they have a very set structure. They introduce a problem. They kind of come up with some token anecdotes and then they end with a conclusion solutions. Kind of page. I tried to invert that structure for this book. I said what are the solutions. People are pursuing. And how can we see the incredibly complicated stories of people trying to end the pitfalls they run into in the opposition? They have in actually pursuing these solutions You know whether it's Sony trying to create a constituency of renters who were trying to push for more housing whether it's sister Christina trying to raise money to buy Apartment before can get to them. Whether it's this fifteen year old girl who I you know followed through this whole Odyssey of her trying to fight a landlord or eight hundred dollars increase. These are people going after these problems in the way they think and in as you see them sometimes succeed sometimes fail you get a sense of what the challenges are? What's the way forward? There's no real way forward other than building a lot. More Housing and coming up with more robust subsidization programs for people who cannot afford it that as currently constructed people who work in the cafeterias at Google are not going to be able to live anywhere near Google And so google can do one of two things they can raise their wages by ten times or They can get politically active in trying to rectify that by pushing for more housing now. They've started to do that There's just kind of broad analogy in a weird way. There's been a lot of discussion about you over the past however many years about tack moving out of the box of the iphone or the computer or whatever into the real world with Uber and all these things and I think this is kind of the sort of a similar thing where you know you go back and you look at GM or any of these companies. They had a very robust relationships and and political involvement with the communities that they were based in and Workforce Training all workforce house. All these things right and I think that part of the industry growing up and kind of becoming the true industrial powerhouse of age we live in is going to be them. Adopting a similar role and that'll be messy and people be mad about it and you know all they'll be fights and all these things but ultimately that's kind of that's kind of what has to happen o'connor thanks for being here that's Connor Doherty. He's the author of Golden Gates. And it's out now it's a it's a checkbook without you know too subtle subtle. Tech Business Book even though not advertising itself as such thanks conor thank you. La I it's Jessica lesson here with the information and I'm sitting in San Francisco with Robin Murdoch of accenture. Robin is Global. Managing Director of software platforms is at accenture one of the thirteen industry groups overseeing all leading platform companies which we we know is abroad Purview in today's Day and age Robin. Thanks so much for being here. So accenture has some new ridesharing research. That's out. Tell us what you found. Yes we surveyed number of ride sharing users here in here in the US and the the headline really is the people love ridesharing services but the brand commitment is not really there. People are really switching between the different services than with my business reporter hat on. I see that This is to perhaps explain for some of the Challenges Uber. Lift or still facing here. What did your research show in terms of trajectory right? Is it tilting? One way versus tilting the other way think so too too key things. Certainly in the near term people are really satisfied in that showing up in the fact that people are planning on maintaining or increasing their spent so the vast majority of people are planning on Maintain your increasing spent ridesharing over the next year but interestingly as you look to look over the next decade two thirds of people said that they consider giving up their car on the vast majority of people. We spoke to did actually own or lease a car so certainly from an perspective people love right right having services and would consider over the longer term switching switching from owning a car. That's fascinating I remember when you see. Companies LIKE BURN LIFTED. Many others say our target market is car ownership right. It's not the taxi industry or something like that. So you're seeing that consumers are. There's some evidence that that may be possible but not there yet is that I think that's fair. I mean so the people we spoke to the vast majority of them. Do you still own cars. It's something that we can probably expect to see over the coming few years. But but in the near-term lots more usage of ride. Hailing what about micro mobility scooters? What did your research? So we ask people if they used different different adjacent services and actually people people surprisingly said that they weren't using as many adjacent services. They're sticking to the one thing that they're using so we find about forty percent of people were using adjacent services like scooters etc. Certainly that's an opportunity scooters a whole bunch of things package delivery parites food delivery so people are really really focused on the main ridesharing services themselves. That's fascinating also kind of baked into the business. Expectations of of these companies. As sort of the platform take on Amazon. You know And while we've seen I think In food delivery an uber in particular a lot of growth is just brutal marquette. I think in terms of the competitive economics and Be Interesting to see if how consumers feel given they're still a lot of competition a lot of choice and certainly if you look in the if you look in the US adjacent services are very attached to kind of the original service of Italian. Actually if you look outside the US like into Southeast Asia. Grab for instance. It's getting into the payment space or if you look at like diddy in in in China you see them sort of expanding more vertically into multiple parts of the ridesharing service so partnering with Electric Vehicle Companies Charging infrastructure. It's at tre. So so you know around the world. There are different approaches to really expand from just core breitling. Do you think the geographically. We'll see more convergence are I mean? I think you mentioned autonomous. We have uber and that is still investing heavily in that. I'm not sure with what sign of traction yet. But or with your global perspective you think the markets will keep their distinctiveness a look. Everyone is trying. Everyone is looking at these. These new futuristic services like autonomous vehicles. See this year. There was lots of talk about air taxis. There was a mockup of a high end. Die Uber Air taxi so you certainly leaning into the future. There is this promise of autonomous vehicles and obviously autonomous vehicles in the air on land. But that you know that that is that is uncertain as to when that will really kick in what does get interesting though when you start to look to. That future position is the economics potentially changed dramatically. So you move from a very odd packs intensive ride hailing service to one where well if you go to Thomas Vehicles? It's much more capital intensive. So you've got that interesting interesting change into the financial position that you might see in right hailing but it's uncertain as to win. That's actually kick in the public. Perhaps oppressor over under optimistic on just the timelines for autonomous. Yeah I mean you hear very different different different things from from different people. This interesting school of thought that actually even though it sounds very jetson a air-taxis an easier or Thomas Solution than than traditional autonomous vehicle. Cars Air Than Road. They're actually thinking that the problem areas that you need to overcome their actually lasts for airtime perspective. Even though it's so futuristic we actually asked consumers if they were interested in in an air taxi service and about forty percent of people actually said they would consider it but they were thinking more in the traditional sense. Say there are saying you know be great to get to the airport by by an air taxi service or or get a tour of a city from an air taxi service. It was more it was more that versus traditionally sort of knocking. Your normal ride hailing servants. Yeah I'm the I always think that Sebastian thrown who was basically one of the godfathers of autonomous vehicles. A Google is now put all his eggs in the Kitty Hawk Vertical takeoff and landing bucket so think. Yeah it's easy to forget the air but we show Hyyndai Hyyndai Nubrik those. We'll say Toyota at four hundred million dollar investment in job aviation certainly seeing the vehicle manufacturers looking at the space with with real interest I always wondered if my kids are going to be getting their driver's later. They're three so you know driver's license pilots Whatever it's going to be the the next generation One of Robin to wrap up. What what else did the research show. That jumped out at you. I think that the flip side to all of this is just brand commitment that a significant amount of people are switching between the brands. We found over. Half people are switching between the brand. So how'd you really maintain that brand loyalty and it's addressing all of the all of the issues that consumers have the whole whole writing experience and that also includes trust maintaining users trust maintaining safety. Those are absolutely critical to user. So so while there's great potential in ride hailing from people giving up their cars to spending more money brand. Commitment certainly is something. That's remain elusive. Do you do you feel like the market share picture. And it's such fasten industry because it's global and complicated e think it's pretty entrenched. Does that tell you think there could be room for very wild swigs? A market that just continues to evolve in almost every region and as you look at sort of the promise of autonomous vehicles at Satra potential. That it will get disrupted again so so it's not it's not stable but certainly it's the case that in a given region there are one or two major players that are dominant. Yeah well we've been covering it since its infancy. And it's great to have that context of the research of what we can expect in the years ahead Thank you so much robin for joining us.

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Third-World California

The Classicist

25:42 min | 1 year ago

Third-World California

"<music> hello and welcome to the classicist podcast. I'm your host. Troy senic here with Victor Davis Hanson the Martin L. E. Anderson Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution and Victor. We're going to have one of our occasional conversations about or mutual homestate California. You still live there. Of course I don't which is a occasionally cause of sorrow for me and then I read one of your columns and it just flushes that romanticism straight out of my system awesome <hes> the one that precipitates our conversation today you wrote for National Review and it's entitled America's First Third World State now now. I've read the piece I lived in the state. I know exactly where you're coming from here but let me play devil's advocate on behalf of the people who have had neither of those experiences in are just hearing this title in our maybe saying to themselves. Are you telling me that of all fifty states. You're saying that the one with Palo Alto and La Hoya and Malibu and Tahoe or at least half of Tahoe and Napa Valley. You're telling me that this cradle of of wealth innovation is third world. How can that be. How would you respond to that well. I think we had this conversation five years ago. When I wrote an article called the other California orange the argument I used then was one third of the nation's welfare recipients twenty two percent of the state population below the poverty line twenty twenty seven percent of the population born in a foreign country highest array of taxes and lowest achieving schools or worse great infrastructure. I think except for Mississippi and my argument then was well what you describe that paradox is the phenomenon of coastal culture. That's affluent most billionaires of any state highest per capita counties in income versus the Interior but I'm not sure that that ex Jesus works anymore because it's it's been five years and I think what I was talking about. If you're looking for outbreaks of typhus or hepatitis infectious hepatitis a potatoes or tuberculosis you actually find them in cities like Los Angeles and San Francisco and sounds and if you're looking at power outages or threaten power outages are announcement from Pacific Gas and electric the public utility that by the way is declared bankruptcy that it won't be able to service its customers for variety of reasons. That's in the coast as well the applicant sectors that you detail and Dan when you look at housing I live in Fresno Southern Fresno County which is officially the second poorest part of California and its per capita income's about thirteen thousand dollars a year like Appalachia but when I go into my hometown I don't see the streets lined with buses buses where people are living when I go to work and Paolo Alto San Mateo County. I think the per capita income's about one hundred and thirty thousand ten times higher I see along El Camino Real Allen from Stanford University of these huge Winnebago's and buses were people I guess are renting beds because they come in and out of them all day long and they sort of parked there then they move my point. Is that homelessness which is a third world. Phenomenon is pretty prevalent on the coast. The wealthy California not just the other California so my point in the article was by any barometer of medieval diseases are the inability to keep electricity eddie on in a reliable fashion or the necessity of thousands of people we have half the nation's homeless in California up three hundred thousand people to go live on the street or live in their cars. That's in California throughout the state and <hes> that's pretty scary when I look at I just got back from Greece and that Kinda prompted the article because the Greek freeways as when I lived there in the seventies and the eighties were pretty premodern but now they're Swiss and German built autobahns and they're wonderful make tonal right through mountains and that I I got there in nineteen seventy three and at that point California's freeways look quite Greece's do now now our pre ways look at Greece's of nineteen seventy-three. I just drove five hours up to northern California and it was almost like Odysseus trying trying to get home. There was all sorts of you know there was cyclops zoos and sirens and everything but the point I'm making it was pretty hazardous and this is why the point I wanted to raise with you because there are there are about forty million people in California so that works out to basically one in every eight Americans living in the state and I remember you saying on one episode years ago. The one of the paradoxes of California is that it attracts all these people at the state government seems intent to make get unlivable for a population that size that they do business is they'd be satisfied with a cap of about twenty million in one of your big arguments in this piece and ironically this is how how post-war Democrats like Pat Brown used to think about California is that one of its core needs one of the key ingredients to any future success is better infrastructure so explain. You've already explained that a little as regards the roads but just he's that argument out for us and what causes consequences have been the failure to do that. Well the week California works. This is it has three north south and it's a north south state. It's much longer than it is wider and it has three major freeways the one on one on the coast and then the ninety nine in the east and the five in the interior they overlap and places but they were originally pretty good freeways they had when we had seventeen eighteen million people they had four lanes and large part of of ninety nine. China's still four lanes. All of I five is outside of Los Angeles four lanes and outside the metropolitan areas. One one is still for lane so my point is you added. Twenty people without changing the infrastructure were we talking nineteen seventy-one about the California water project in the Central Valley Project. We would say that they were the most sophisticated water transfers engineering products and the history civilization you look at the California aqueduct was brilliant but it was never designed without. It's logical expansion in a deputation of tertiary. The third level downs to suffice for forty million person California so we go go from one year. Existential drought were long Di people or on rationing they don't bathe until the next year were we've got so much water. We're leading fifty million acre feet out in San Francisco Bay because we have no where to put it because we never expanded or finished and system and so we are living wien an third world infrastructure and boy when I go into Paolo Alto and I I drive by the neighborhoods where I'm told the Google and apple and facebook executives live I see all these Atherton Menlo Park Timber Woodside and Portola Valley Zillionaires the average gated homes but the roads are just despicable their potholder dirty. When I Walk Down University Avenue it's full of homeless people and and <hes> I can drive in places and Stanford were I'll see islands that have trees and grass will be homeless people camping in there and so it is a third world country and that Third World Ism has gone as I said earlier to the other California and it's a product of sort sort of California's infrastructures struck stuck an amber while we have twenty million more people and it's not just twenty million in more third-generation Californians of all cultures and background? It's to a large extent twenty. Seven percent of the population was born in California pointed that means we have a lot of people that we need to a cultural weight and make sure they know English. They understand the basics of American citizenship ship. Many of them are from Asia and many more from Central American Mexico many of them come without legality. They don't come and measured fashion. They don't come with critic skills. They don't come with a diploma or English and they don't even come with legality and you put all about Anna. The mixture in hyper progressive state has given up hope on that melting pot and adopted identity politics sanctuary the city's salad bowl then you've got the. I say you have the ingredients for California that we never envisioned under Pat Brown. It's the the front line of this <hes> immigration challenge for California by that I mean that's where people who are not week equipped with a birth certificate or they're here illegally. They go to get something they need to operate a car and because the I'll give you one example will the federal government after nine eleven said within a finite time any state that allowed people to have an alternate license without ide- requirements payments I e illegal aliens then would have to have a real I._D.. So we now are telling Californian's like other states. Come next fall well. If you don't have a real I d you cannot fly translated that means say at the Fresno airport that has three flights a day to Guadalajara Mexico and they're always packed these people who are flying for the most part not U._S.. Citizen and most of them are here illegally so they need need to get on that plane and they don't have passports so they go to the D._M._v. and they say I need to get my real I._D.. Will the D._M._v. says the federal law says you have to have a birth certificate which many of them don't have or you have to have a passport which none of them have and then you have to have to prove of residencies power bill or phone bill and then you have to have a social security number which most of them don't have so. How are they going to get a real real real real I._D.? That distinguishes them from a regular California license which distinguishes them from a a license granted to people that are here illegally and the answer is is I found out when I made an appointment and then leapt two hours later is that a lot of people just take pictures of stuff in other words. They'll get a birth certificate from someone else. Cutting pays put a piece of their her name on it or they will get their residents and they'll get a W.. Two and change the social security number and take a picture of it or <hes> Xerox <hes> and then they go to the D._M._v. and they're told no that's not going to work you have to have the original copy and then people say well. That's not fair. Then the person at the windows has let me go get my supervisor and most of it is conducted in Spanish and you can imagine when it's one hundred five degrees in Hanford or really and that that same I'm office is still giving is swamped because it's giving licenses. They're all licenses to illegal aliens first because to get a real I d you need a prior fire California license so you can imagine what that does and when you compound the fact that the Democratic Party the Progressive Women Sees The D._M._v. is a way of registering people to vote even though the people who are on their license roles are illegal and they're supposed to distinguish wish ill illegals who have driver's license from legals and we're told that at least in the case of seventy thousand the last election they were accidentally accidentally on purpose <hes> conflicted and we had to fire the D._M._V. Director apparently and now there's reports that maybe a million people voted in congressional districts that were not Hanging in thousands of very poor people in offering them parody in the American dream and because that's so noble we don't really care about the means necessary to pull it off. That would be the best. Take on the worst. Take on it would be we. WanNa make sure that there's less than seven congressional fifty three congressional districts that are are Republican. We got rid of eight of them. Get rid of them all next time and we don't have one state official whose Republican and we have a super majority in the house and <hes> these simply I should say in the state senate and this is a good model and maybe Nevada and Colorado Colorado New Mexico and Arizona and Texas can follow it and therefore this chaos that I described at the D._M._V. is not seen as chaos oss. It's seen as a kind of inconvenient but otherwise commendable way of bringing a lot of people cross the border that are going to change the demographics of Electoral College in a positive way for those in power. I'd also note your observation in the National Review piece where you you say that there is one. I'm pretty functional brands for the D._M._v. in the state and it's a as you render it as sort of quasi secret location in Sacramento. That's just one <hes> <hes> I found that out by talking to a legislator who kind of winked nodded and said that he just goes to this private little place and he doesn't stand in line because I was whining to him about I wish you had to stain and then I looked it up. When I got home when there's actually a story in the Sacramento Bee that it does does exist and people were outraged about its existence you <hes> you mentioned earlier and you've mentioned in past episodes sort of the cultural contrast that you see if you had the cord north from the central valley up to Silicon Valley or South and Los Angeles and there has been especially in the past decade tercel a growing argument that Californias so immense. If you've got a huge population the states the size of Germany there's arguably because this is more an art than a science somewhere between a half dozen and a dozen kind of distinct regions that and the argument runs that this is a society that is simply too complex complex and too diverse to wrangle in two one st and so we've seen increasingly dramatic reform proposals people talking about breaking it up into smaller states or people people talking about writing a new constitution are you to that point where it seems like absence some big fundamental institutional change. This is not going to get any better yeah. I don't think it's going to get better in my lifetime. My hope would always always be that in matters of illegal immigration that the Hispanic models sort of emulating the Latino <hes> the excuse me the Italian American model of the early the twentieth century but that was predicated on abbreviated immigration spurts not continuous ones by point as for assimilation integration and intermarriage to work. You can't have a million people coming across the border illegally without a high school diploma English just too much it taxes. This is the powers of assimilation to so much that doesn't work but so I don't. I'm not very confident. If you were to split the state in two I think there would be a more conservative mostly Latino state in the middle and I e from Bakersfield to Sacramento and and you would combine the Sierra Nevada which is very conservative and maybe all the way in the west side up to the foothills it wouldn't be nearly as rich as the coast wouldn't have Stanford for Caltech it wouldn't have apple or Google etc but you would not be passing legislation about transgendered restrooms or Straw soon to be banned or against the law to have your dog chase a Bob Cat. It would be more elemental stuff. The powers to high gas is too high. There's not enough housing. We've got to build better roads. It'd be much more pragmatic. That might be good. I think what we're doing now. In California were telling during the minority population we give you guys open borders and we give you guys plentiful on audited <hes> social programs uh-huh and entitlements and we protect your relatives friends family members from deportation when they're residing illegally through our sanctuary city program and therefore your representatives have to get on board with us in not building affordable housing regulating gas and oil out of existence shutting down the timber and Mining Industries and having these boot Boutique Green issues that's what you signed up for its very condescending attitude and somehow that has to be broken and I don't know how it will be because as soon as a moderate or conservative legislator who self identifies Latino <music> something they feel that he's in an end grade or he's not he's not following the party line but until we have a viable conservative or centrist Centrists Latino political movement we're not going to see much change simply because about forty percent of the population now self identifies as Latino probably seventy percent of them are Democratic voters so final question <hes>. You've had a tremendous amount of success this in your career. You've distinguished yourself as a scholar. You've distinguished yourself as a public intellectual all that to say you're not someone who's caught in a mobility trap for you can't just pick up stakes and leave and I venture to say that if Victor Davis Hanson announces tomorrow that he's relocating to Texas there's a welcome party waiting for him at the border but for all these parts for the California border for all of these frustrations you remain Victor Davis Hanson of Selma California why we know it's funny. That's the topic of conversation than my wife and I have because we live in this three thousand. Thousand Square Foot Victorian farmhouse it was built in eighteen seventy with a three acre yard and then we have forty five acres of farmland farmland and I'm sixty five and she's fifty six so we're not as young as spicer. We don't have any help at all. I mean I do all yard worked in all the maintenance and she does all the interior cleaning and cooking and she works full time as a professor and I worked full time as well so we're saying maybe we should relocate and then we we start talking and I don't think either my surviving children want to live here for variety of reasons. They marry other people from different areas of California. They're not attached Central Valley to the same degree <hes> so we ask yourself. Why are we doing this and I guess the answer comes comes that <hes> a couple of things one is. I don't want to be the person six generations of sell something that I wanna give my children the chance to make make that decision the way I had that chance and so my great great grandmother built this House when I see pictures of her every day. I'm looking at one right now. That's so it's kind of lethargy or traditions. The other thing is that <hes> I found a way kind of it to insulate myself from things that we you and I have talked about over the years and by that I mean I kind of feel this is like a small little farmhouse in North Africa about five hundred A._D.. When the vandals came and by that I mean there's a lot of people that I went to high school with that are Mexican American and the WHO are my closest friends and and they're all politically centrist or conservative and if anything they're more conservative about the border than I am I saw when I had dinner last night with one I went to first grade with. They have the same concerns that I do and then to. I kind of know the sheriff's sheriffs. I know some of the larger farm families I built a about twenty years ago. I build six hundred foot stone wall around the the whole compound and within. I tried to make kind of a Greek gardens or have a pool and beautiful yard and and I have a six foot and a half wall so when I walk out of the wall I'm out in the real world where my neighbors are engaging in chop. Shops and shootouts and cockfights invites an illegal activity in there and we have a lot of but within my compound if you have five of these Australian in cattle dogs Queensland healers and you're pretty safe and I mean that literally because what's one of the shocking things about it is I live in one of the highest crime <music>. I'm rates. I think Fresno is one of the highest maybe for San Francisco property crime rate areas per capita but when I talked to people who are very wealthy that live on the San Joaquin River and places like Stockton Fresno very affluent areas or I talked to my daughter who lives in Santa Cruz. I talked to even people in Palo Alto. I hear these horrendous stories of break INS and vandalism. I'd never had any of that in the last ten or fifteen in years and I don't know whether that's because the local sheriff's like to do their paperwork in my yard or on good terms with the lot of people but so far on the last time we had a serious break in I think was fifteen years ago pretty scary but they haven't had that lately but otherwise. Why is you know. I'm just not to ramble too much but there is an advantage. I don't socialize with other hoover scholars because I'm here you know when I go to Stanford <unk> working all day from six to eight in my office to get all my business and then when I'm here nobody ever comes over to my house. We don't go out to dinner enter with other couples so I get a lot of work done but you know it's a one hundred six today here and I'm going to hang hang up and try to go up on the roof and figure out what in the world is wrong with my use. Internet and my landline is out as usual when it gets hot and I'd much rather be at Stanford today or up in the mountains so I don't know. How long is this going to Laos but I guess the final answer is I just don't WanNa be the first Lincoln at chain that that broke and I have some competence that things are going to change and I really don't believe that what a person's ethnic background or color or whatever the superficial identity politics stuff is matters at all? I have no problem with the fact that my community used to be when I I was born into it about seventy five percent Scandinavian. This was a Danish each town kings work next door with a Swedish and now it's about ninety percent Hispanic. I think that's great. My only worry is that I'd like the culture to remain remain the same and by that I mean <hes> honest government in efficient government and I I have some competence that second and third generation Mexican American former immigrants follow in that tradition and that they too are not tribal as we think they are when we read about the left left-wing the Democratic Party and so that's my hope but we'll see what happens I could be shop tomorrow by a guy stripping a semi in my yard or I could walk out my house literally to get the Mail on a stray dog bite me and I'd have another decision as I've had two or three times where to get rabies shots or not but right now. I think that's the reason I stay well. We'll choose as I'm sure. Our listeners will to embrace the more optimistic of the forecast. You've been listening to to the classes podcast with Victor Davis Hanson. Remember you can read Victor's work to finding ideas at Hoover Dot Org as well as pick your Hansen dot com and if you enjoy the classes please to show on itunes for Victor Davis Hanson. I'm choice Senate. Thanks for listening. This podcast asked has been a production of the Hoover Institution for more information about our work. Please visit Hoover Dot Org.

California Victor Davis Hanson Los Angeles Hoover Institution Fresno National Review Pat Brown Sacramento Stanford Central Valley Stanford Google China San Francisco Democratic Party Palo Alto
Khan Academy: Sal Khan

How I Built This

1:24:13 hr | 1 d ago

Khan Academy: Sal Khan

"This message comes from NPR sponsor Adian the future-proof Payments Platform. Welcome all payments beyond the cutting edge of customer experiences and Grow Your Business. With Adian Visit A. D. Y., E. N., DOT COM SLASH NPR to learn more hate. It's guy here. Have you ever thought about starting a business and if so what would it be? How do you come up with an idea? How do you find the money to start? How do you get the word out about your product or service? What do you do? If your idea isn't working and how do you pit well to answer those questions I've written a book it's called what else how I built this and it's full of inspiring stories from some of the greatest entrepreneurs in the world who've been through the trenches made big mistakes and lived to tell the tale if you're looking to start something or just want to be inspired by those who've built incredible things pick up how I built this now wherever you buy your books or by visiting Garros Dot Com. It was incredibly stressful and we were digging into our savings about five or six thousand dollars a month and you know, but might male ego was trying to shelter my family for from its US putting on a strong face to my friends and family and yet you can imagine my mother who he when I told her. I'd quit my job I started her first word was. What. From NPR, it's how I built this a show of that innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built. Guy Rise on the show today how a random decision to help a cousin was her math home let sal Khan to build Khan Academy a free online teaching platform with nearly thirty million users among. So. Most of the products and services we've talked about on the show have been innovative or disruptive in some way. But some of them and you've heard me say this before have fundamentally changed the way we live I mean lift AIRBNB starbucks. Shop Affi-. wayfair. These brands have transformed the way that many of us shop and travel and work. But every now, and then a founder comes along that seems to want to do something even more ambitious, even more transformative like remember. Pat. Brown, he founded impossible foods to create meet out of plants meet. So meet like that even the most die-hard carnivores would want to eat it. Pat Wants to put a stop to meet production period because of the damage, it's doing to the planet and essentially and I don't think I'm overstating this. He set out from day one to change the world. But still. Pat Brown stands to make a lot of money from his company same with most of the founders who've been on this show and I don't think any of them are motivated primarily to make money but it is part of the story they make a product or offer service, sell it to you and me, and they also get rich perfectly fine. But what about someone who makes a product or offers a service that is equally transformational maybe even more so but makes it one hundred percent free To do that, you have to make personal sacrifices starting by earning a lot less money. which is just part of what makes Sal Khan. So incredibly remarkable. Over the past twelve years, he's built Khan Academy into a powerhouse, a massive online learning platform that offers free tutorials to anyone anywhere. And from the very beginning South sided, his academy would be a nonprofit that it should never be tempted to compromise on its values. But before he launched Khan, Academy Sal didn't anticipate any of this. He was just trying to help a younger cousin with her sixth grade math lessons at the time he was working for a hedge fund. But from those early days of doing one on one to toils sal gradually built a platform that offers hundreds of classes in dozens of languages. Nearly thirty million people use Khan Academy. Every month to learn math science arts even sat prep all four free and Khan. Academy has inspired the launch of many other online learning platforms, but many of them are for profit operations that charge money. But we'll get to all that moment first. Let's back up just a little bit sal Khan grew up in metairie Louisiana his mom was from India and his dad was from Bangladesh and the marriage ended when sal was pretty young. My parents. Had issues and so they separated when I was probably about eighteen months old two years old and then I had really never seen my father and I saw once four an evening when I was thirteen and then he passed away the next year so it was really might. mother who raised us as as a single mother. While was there a community of South Asian families in imagery? Growing up. Yeah my you know when my parents separated. We actually live with my young at the time they were in their twenty s, and so they all were kind of like father figures and almost like older siblings to to me as well and and a lot of ways they were not your stereotypical you know. Just come to the US study. Get a job save money kind of prudent immigrant story they were. They were much more embracing of New Orleans. Culture. And I would say they're the most new ORLEAN South Asians. You will ever find it in your life. I had a very colorful childhood. You know late night parties, people, singing, and dancing. For me it felt like a I remember my third birthday that my uncles got a belly dancer. I still remember Habiba you know So it was definitely a different type of childhood, but it was a in some ways a really rich one. So what did your mom do for a living? The first job that I remember her having she she was the person who takes the change out of the vending machine at the at the local hospital actually the hospital where I was born and she took me to work a couple of times 'cause she didn't have childcare and I thought at the time I remember watching her do that. I think it was like the coolest job on earth because you have the key that you can open up the vending machine and like quarters just pour out of it. So she did that for a little bit and then essentially was a cashier at a series of convenience stores is kind of doing you know one minimum wage job after another and then I was in high school she had remarried her my Stepdad at the time were able to. Kind of cobble together to get a a small convenience store in. Your book you write. Louisiana was as close to South Asia as the United States could get. It's spicy food. Giant cockroaches in the corrupt government which is both funny but somewhat true true. I guess right I mean. You grew up at a time when. Like David Duke was the. The representative in steel her. The part of Mary where we had our store, it was called seminole convenience store on Seminole Avenue, and it's called a parliamentary called on that was kind of the heart of David Dukes base. So to speak I remember in a right outside of our our store across the street was the largest David Duke for president signing I've ever seen and so it was A. You know the the folks who lived in the neighborhood who were frankly know Super David Duke supporters in some ways it was lucky. This is pre nine eleven They didn't really know what to make of my family at at the time We've had a few conversations I remember with people the store where they they openly told us that they were trying to decide whether we were white or the N. word to you know we were confusing them but you know growing up I was the only Brown kid in in the classroom. But I never felt in school at all like folks were in any way biased or racist against me. If anything I have to give the the school system to Jefferson parish school system, a lot of credit you know I think a lot of what I am today is because they gave me opportunities there were teachers that believed in me. I had a really good friend circle So so I have no. You, know I I don't feel like it was a a tough childhood. So. Was your mom Did she have very strict expectations for you I? mean she had come from India to the United States of sacrifices to cheese sort of. You know would say you have to be an engineer doctor lawyer like would was there any kind of talk like sat at home when you were a kid? You, know, my mother. Definitely did instill some really strong values. You know just seeing her operate. My mom is a very courageous person and we were the only family that that in our friend circle where you know we were kind of not well off or at least not middle class. But I think that was helpful to because. The family friends we had many of them were the stereotypical doctors and engineers and you obviously can see where you live and you see where those kids live and you can see kind of our financial insecurity. I still remember I must have been eight or nine years old at Kmart and I was being a brat. I really wanted to be by this hot wheel set and I was throwing a Tantrum in the K. Mart and I remember that was the first time that my mom kind. Of. Just kind of broke down a little bit says, don't you realize we have no money and you know one of my uncles they had a they had a food store in a really rough neighborhood in New Orleans. He got shot You know people who you know. We thought he was going to die I think I was about eight years old at the time I don't want that life. I'd rather have the life of of my other South Asian friends who are whose parents are. You know who who are professionals. Sal, trying to figure out where your? Framing comes from the way you framed your childhood is. Pretty remarkable because I think you can also I mean I mean somebody with the same same experience could say actually was really hard. Financially insecure. My uncles had a convenience or my mom did it was not safe there were robberies we were you know. The only Brown skin people in our neighborhood there was racism I mean the way you framed your childhood is. Totally different from the way. I think a lot of people would frame it and I wonder. which attribute that to mean, where does that come from? Well I generally think it was a it was a rich and colorful childhood and There was definitely hard aspects of it but I think everyone has their their own flavor of hardships and for the most part I think whatever hardships constraints we had helped. Grow me and. It gives you a perspective on life and I wouldn't describe my childhood as idyllic by any stretch of the imagination but I would I would I would describe as colorful and rich, and definitely had experiences that you know a lot of kids didn't have which I think we're actually in hindsight. Quite incredible. Yeah. I read that when your high school you were in. A. Heavy metal band or death metal band or Which one was F-. True yes. I was the lead singer but singing is is being very generous to what I was doing was more of yelling growling. You're the lead growl or of the death metal band I was the lead growl or a death metal band called. Original name and I cringe when I say these things now it was malignancy but then we have to change her name because there was abandoned. Florida called Malignancy. Anyway. You know it was me and. Three other guys. All right. You are in this band and But it sounds like school was pretty easy for you. Then you're doing pretty well. Yeah. I was a kid that kind of did whatever I needed to do to to get a decent grade and it was about ninth or tenth grade that I started getting really serious about studies I. Remember in tenth, Grade I kinda live live this double life where I was on kind of the academic teams and Quiz Bowl and Science Olympiad and I was chosen to be on a representing Louisiana National Academic Games. and. It was the same weekend as our first big GIG as a death metal band and so. This kind of path I had this choice that had to pick. This is this malignancies I main? Yeah. We we had an opportunity to open up for paralysis which is a big deal and malignancy opens for paralysis. Really, some of my the people who are my band there starting to get into trouble some of them started. Doing some drugs. Getting, getting a little bit into, I would call a scary crowd and that frankly I had my I had my quiz bowl and academic games friends. And then and then I had my my other friends who were. Their life was getting really tough and they were starting to I would say get into trouble and that that scared me. So. When it came time to apply to college were you encouraged to aim pretty highlight like to a prestigious school? I give a lot of credit to my sister. You know she was always a little ahead of me and I looked at the schools that she was applying for when she was graduating from high school. I was in middle school or freshman at the time and she was applying to places like Brown. University and I was like fire have you looked at the tuition at Brown University there's no way we're going to be able for that and she's like, no, there's something financial aid and you can get Glonass and and all of this and she ended up going to Brown and that completely opened up my mind of what's possible and to give my mom fair credit she definitely. I think. South Asian culture. Indian. Culture whatever you WANNA call it. You know there is this very you could call it positive or negative peer pressure of like, what are your kids doing so and so's kids going to med school what you someone has a perfect GPA's Valedictorian his your kid only the flu dettori. So she kind of would often tell us stuff like you know you should be value Tori and just like threw Heen through was kid we knew who was ten years older who had I think by the time he was eighteen he had a PhD from Tulane so. I think he now has to. Ambi. So I remember there's a lot I heard a lot about. So I guess your mom was pretty happy because you wound up going to mit and when you got there was so exciting. It was for me. When I got there I was. It did feel like heaven on. So many levels for me it was. The first environment that I had been in that? Really are like you shouldn't be ashamed if you're getting excited in organic chemistry class. I remember one of my friends who I actually met in the organic chemistry class like I literally saw him getting excited about. Being talked about having A. As as we were talking about the Aldo reaction and It's the closest thing to hogwarts in the real world where. You know science is magic and you can walk down the main hallway and MIT's called the infinite corridor and you're just seeing you know people with like that some of them are a little bit unusual in. All of this, but they have these magical superpowers and there's professors who are inventing things and building things, and this is right in the late nineties where the Internet and computer science was was starting to become very relevant to broader to as his whole it's. Mit. Was and continues to be incredibly exciting place. You graduated Mit with a master's degree you doubled tripled up on classes and. Against just. Insanely productive. and and got a degree in computer science What did you do after you graduated? Well. I remember my senior year. This was about November, my senior year I talked to a friend who was a year older and he had just gotten a job at oracle and I was kind of nauseous. Well, how much are they paying you and at and he said one hundred thousand dollars and for me the time I was like what am mind was blowing mind was My mom was making sixteen thousand dollars a year. I had about twenty, five, thousand dollars in debt, which at the time felt like all the money in the world. So I was getting stressed about it and I was, and I literally remember thinking like it would be irresponsible for me not to try to make that type of money pay off my debt help out my family. And just get a little bit more financial security I. Remember that's when I went to an adviser and saying. I think I need to finish the masters this year and they'll thought I was a little bit crazy but it happened and. Ended up working at. It's my first job. Wow. So you moved to Silicon Valley. To work after California to to to work for Oracle. Yes. Yeah moved out to the bay area and you get to you know about a year into my tenure there it's nineteen, ninety, nine our peak of the dot. COM bubble I remember having a conversation with. A friend of mine who was on an H. One B. Visa from India and and he said, why are you here as a White House pays really good he's like. I'm here because I have to get my to get `immigration but like you're a citizen like if I were you, I'd be I'd be starting a company right now is the late nineties and so Yeah I ended up joining a startup. A. Startup to it was going to democratize venture capitals called me vc where the idea was. You know, you had all these IPO's that were popping. So a lot of people were trying to get into the venture capital market, but obviously was hard for people to get into it, and so these two bankers from Roberson Stevens at the time they had come up with a structure that could be a publicly traded venture capital fund, and so that was the startup and who's going to have a tech aspect of it where people could see the investments, etcetera etcetera. So that was what I was. Supposed to build an ended built. it's a great idea, but still hasn't been democratized to this day. What happened to the STAR UP While the Nasdaq was roaring was doing quite well it it grew to forty employees at raised its first fund, which I think was A. Several hundred, million dollars But then you know I still remember that day and I believe it was spring of two thousand when the Nasdaq collapsed and and with that, I saw the the other side of the startup world where you know every week, we'd have to lay off you folks and it was incredibly incredibly painful and political and stressful, and that was around the time that I was like maybe I should take shelter someplace. Yeah. So I started looking up applications for business school. so you decide to leave silicon valley and the startup world for at least a time being and go to business school he went to back to Massachusetts to Harvard Business School. And what was the idea was your idea like all right I'll do this and then I'll go back into the startup world or go into financing, get a stable job and you know make A. Stable, good income like did you have a sense of what you want to do? I mean if I'm really honest I was I was lonely. I was out in Silicon Valley I mean the male female ratio in Silicon Valley back then was horrendous. I also felt traumatize to a large degree by my startup experience because it was it was so painful and political and and and I actually told myself that I didn't. I didn't have the fortitude to be an entrepreneur then that it is it's just It's just so emotionally taxing. Let me go to business school and you know maybe broaden my resume a little bit. So people don't perceive me as the tech guy or the guy, and it was while I was in business school taking finance classes and started seeing that, wow there's a real beauty to finance that it has its quantitative aspect, but it's also has a huge psychological and historical aspect to it that I loved and I remember taking a capital markets class and that was probably the math heaviest class offered in business school and. And, the professor's name George Choco. I remember going to after class when I really liked this class and he's like, yeah, you really have a knack for capital markets and things like this I was like, well, what should I do with this like what kind of career is this for I? Think you should go work at a Hedge Fund and? That's sounds great. What's a hedge fund and he explained you know it's it's like a mutual fund but there's a lot more flexibility in how you invest the money. You can get into exotic things you can short you can buy and sell options and I talked to some friends who are either who had worked at hedge funds or who were going to work in hedge funds and said know. So what's the pay like you know? Is it good and they kind of looked at me like, are you crazy? It's like it's about as good as it gets. So. I guess you decided to do exactly that to get a job at a hedge fund? Was it easy to land one though I got? My application got rejected hundreds of times. Am My resume did not look like A. Hedge Fund resume I. Would I was getting tack wanted me to be a product manager or something like that but at that time I had There was a girl had a crush on from MIT. She was now in Med school in new. York and so I was also like I need to work in New York and so I was I literally went through the director of any Hedge Fund and New York and I was I was getting one rejection after another and eventually there was The sky Dan wool a based in in Boston who was apparently kind of getting his head off the ground and Dan at the time was thirty two years. Old I think or thirty three years old and I interviewed with him and he hired me and he later told me because I didn't have a background in finance. He liked that I seemed to be kind of a out of the box type of personality and You know it's one of these ironies that I had been fallen back into essentially a startup because it was me and Dan and you're looking for office space and making sure that the office was dog friendly 'cause he had this large dogs. We had to accommodate So yeah that that was my first job in finance. Head to go. How did you do? You know I gotTa Say I. I. It was it was a fascinating job because what we would do, we would screen the market for. Things that look just intriguing and we would try to understand that business and the best way to understand that business was tried to get the the management team on the phone to explain their business to us. Yeah, and and so it was intellectually I. I was a kid in a candy shop because I was able to. Every day I mean it's kind of like being a journalist you're able to really dive deeply into these and my job was actually to be kind of a hyper learner because you know the first half of the calls I would always say like it was a little bit of like Gee Whiz. So how does this work logistics work and all that and then the second half of the call I would I would turn up the novel little bit and I was like you know what you're saying doesn't make sense. And Push and push the management teams a little bit harder. And I mean why you're doing all this you're you're also. Starting what would become Khan Academy? You're working there in Boston and I guess it's around two thousand and four like the story I guess that I've heard is that your sister's daughter has having trouble with math is that is that sort of the story? It was a cousin it was a year. I was a year out of business school had just gotten married to the to Mama. The person that I was trying to move to New York for. The wedding was in New Jersey which is where my wife grew up but then. Family. was visiting from New Orleans and had come. They wanted to visit a Boston during fourth of July and so I was showing them around town and. Just came conversation that my to year old cousin, the her mother Nassir Auntie was telling me that she was having trouble in math and she's like salads or said anything you can do I know you're more knowledgeable about these types of things and so I I talked to Nadia. Nadia said that she was having trouble he took a placement test at the end of sixth grade had a lot of unit conversion it. She felt that she just couldn't understand unit conversion. Told Nadia's like I'm one hundred percent. Sure you're capable of. Learning Unit conversion how about when you go back to New Orleans I'm happy to tutor you remotely and she was up for it and. That's that was August of two thousand and four when I started tutoring not. All right. So remotely sounds fine today like in the era of Zoom and slack and stuff. But how did you do that in two thousand four was Over the phone. Yeah, it was over the phone. and. We'd use Yahoo Instant Messenger to to type messages or type questions and Yahoo instant. Messenger at the time had this feature called Yahoo doodle. With your mouse scribble something and someone on the other side could see what you scribbled and you can imagine writing math equations with a mouse was pretty painful and so I got myself and I got Nadia A. You like a sixty dollar pen tablet so that you could right. But it was on a little little part of your instant messenger window with still enough that you could write things like three x is equal to six. What is? So that's that's how we did it, and this is something you doing night. After work. Yeah we I was doing it every day about thirty minutes and getting on the phone and after a frankly a few weeks. Nadia. The first few weeks was deprogramming her own lack of self esteem. But then after she got through that, she started believe that she was capable of learning. You'd have conversion actually came quite easily to her then she got caught up with her class. You came a little ahead of her class. At that point, I became what I call a tiger cousin called up her school. I say you know I really think neither remind should be able to retake that placement test from last year. They said, who are you said I'm her cousin and surprisingly they let her retake placement test and the same Nadia who is only a few months ago put into a remedial class was now put into an advanced math class and I was hooked. Wow and what was the secret and? How, how did you get her from a remedial classroom advanced class in a matter of months? I would love to believe that I'm some type of super tours something but I think the reality actually a lot of research to back this up that if you do have one on one tutoring and that Tudor's able to identify what your gaps are and fill in those gaps especially in subjects like mathematics that most kids can actually probably all could be accelerated dramatically and That's all that was happening with the I. Mean there was some of it was just motivational. She'd almost given up on herself so at to just remotivate her a little bit and I think. A little bit of the secret. You know this might sound a little bit of like, what's IT GONNA Tiger cousin or Tiger parent thing to do. But when you get when you allow us to get a little ahead of their class, a two things happen one when they see it in class, they're like, Oh, I've seen this before. So they builds a little bit of cushion and also builds confidence. There's just you know once you start to realize that you can actually get a little ahead of your class. You're like Oh maybe this is my thing maybe I'm a math person. And I guess like the word gets out. On the family in Louisiana and other relatives like, Hey, can you help mike hit or can you help me? Is that sort of what happened? Yeah I mean puts it exactly as you described word spread that free tutoring was going on. Before you know and I was getting requests. From from from family members all over the country and by by two thousand six I was tutoring on a given day anywhere between five and fifteen cousins. Family friends are around day on a given audit they would all get on the speakerphone together. Would answer questions they had and. One thing I my cousins. The way that math is often taught and especially learned is it's like these fragmented concepts that you have to memorize formulas and patterns and things like that and what the thing that really served me well growing up is that if you just ponder the math a little bit it, all connects it. All makes intuitive sense. It's all just a way of thinking, and so I was really trying to do what I what I could do to support them all and meantime we're still working a hedge fund, right? I was and I have to give extra credit to Dan because in the early days when I was working for wool capital dance. Startup Hedge Fund. It was just meet him I had bought into the stereotype that you have to work eighty hours a week to make it in finance. So I was ready to do that and I remember miss probably a month or two into starting my job. Dan's like why are you still here? Aren't you going home has gone on Dan I'm I'm ready to I'M GONNA look for more investment ideas. He's like go home it's like okay I was like okay I'll go home and I'll look for investment ideas like no south you're not gonNA help anybody by just Having the appearance of motion, it's not about just churning yourself and tying yourself out because then you're just more likely to make bad decisions our whole goal is to avoid bad decisions and the best way to do that is when you're at work and have your game face on your game energy. But to do that, you're going to have to have other things in your life. You should read interesting books. Recharge and actually recharging is going to keep your mind open and keep you creative and not fond to the group think that a lot of people do so Dan forced me to have a life and that's what gave me the space in my life to offer obviously. Yeah. You know after close I'm I'm actually pretty free to to work with you. So you're doing this tutoring these kids in it's over the phone. And this is like around two thousand six. And somebody suggests that you make videos and you put it on Youtube is that that happened around that time? Actually even before the videos happened around late two, thousand five. This background in software and in the back of my mind, I have always been fascinated by. Ken. Software, play role in improving human potential and when I was in college. Almost every job I did was in some way related to education or how tech education could be useful I remember I worked for the some Spanish professors to help teach people Spanish, than the the next summer I worked on some software to help kids with attention deficit disorder. Learn. Math. And I created this little thing called math planet. So my brain was throughout for longtime and so when I started working with my cousins like, wow, you know it's hard for me to find good practice problems for them on the Internet, let me write some software for them that could generate practice problems and Then can give them hints and solutions and immediate feedback that could give me as a tutor data on how they're performing and how long things are taking them and I wrote it. As a hobby and that was that was the first Khan Academy I. I set it up as a website, and you just was not very expensive. Presumably, you just kind of do yourself and offered it to. These kids. Yeah and I remember a lot of friends like this business. I was no no not a business. I'm not start up I'll never do that again. This is this. This is my family project that was my way of frankly protecting it emotionally, and yeah, I was at a dinner party and my friend has Zulu Zulu. Him full credit he's like. Well, this is cool sal but how he's killing your actual lessons and I said you're right. It's hard to do with ten cousins what I was originally doing with just nausea and her brothers and he says record some of your lessons is videos and upload them onto youtube for your family and I immediately. You know my technology site that's such a low tech solution and I-, vocalized him I was like no, that's like Youtube for. Cats playing pianos for dogs on board. It's not for learning and I went home that weekend and I think I probably had explained least common multiple to a cousin for the eighth time and I was like maybe he's always got a point maybe I should make a video on multiples where my cousins and then it was just a how do I make the video back in two thousand six a cell phones weren't particularly good I didn't have no camera and You Google Search, oh, there's something called screen capture software, and so I downloaded some free screen capture software and I started just essentially recording some of my digital scribbles using my pen tablet Yeah. You can hear my voice over while I'm talking here and there were done very extemporaneously from my cousins and I started uploading them onto youtube and telling them watch this at your own time and pace, and then we can. We can dig deeper when we get on the phone and after about a month some for feedback and they they famously told me they liked me better on youtube than in person. Yes. They just really liked having an on demand version of their cousin that they could watch as much as they want. There was no shame reviewing a concept that they should have learned in fourth grade and I started to realize you know this co this type of thing especially math and I was doing math and I started doing some physics and chemistry and biology. Well, it's pretty evergreen content. If once you have a good explanation of adding fractions with unlike denominators. Pretty much everyone in the world could use it and you don't really have to refresh it unless you figure out a better way of explaining adding fractions with unlike unlike the nominators. I'm trying to figure out how you were thinking about this because clearly you were added to help your. Relatives and and these kids in here extended family and friends of friends but after think that a part of you was like. Maybe, there's something bigger here or were you just not even thinking that at all? Oh there was the first or something my my brain it at oscillates between these like mega delusional. You know. Space Operas Science Fiction ideas and like sal you're being crazy focus on what you can do in the here now and so. The reason why I was always fascinated by software technology education is that. It's not hard to imagine that if you you make something that can increase human potential by ten percent twenty percent or one hundred percent, and if it scales technology can there's no reason why it can't affect all of all of humanity one day and I was super inspired when I was young in seventh grade I read. I read the foundation series. Isaac Asimov, and the protagonist is someone named Harry Selden who's kind of a new form of academic combination of mathematics economics history psychology, and he's able to predict large scale historical movements and he sees through his science that the Galactic Empire. is about to enter into a ten thousand year Dark Ages. And he decides to do something about it. He can't stop it from happening, but he can shorten it to a thousand years and the way he does that is by taking the galaxies knowledge and putting it into a foundation at the periphery of the galaxy and I remember when I was seventh grade and I read that. I thought two things. One. Why don't more people think on those scales like that? It feels so inspiring an epic to think on that scale. Well, beyond ourselves you know when under the Hedge Fund world, I? Most people don't even beyond the the next earnings period much. Must Generational or over centuries over thousands of years and then the other from that book in seventh grade was like Yeah Harry Celtics Right. Like the way to preserve civilization is really through knowledge it like that is what defines a civilization and that is what defines you potential and so. You know while I was working on this in two, thousand, six, two, thousand, seven and I started getting. Thank you letters from folks around the world people our soldiers in Iraq saying I'm I'm using your content while while on in Iraq do to prepare for college. So I can go back to college people who dropped out of high school. I was like maybe maybe this project could be like the foundation. It could be the thing that keeps us from going into dark ages or maybe entering into a new age who knows. That's what I'm wondering when you started printing these videos on Youtube on the Internet. Would you like wake up see like two hundred views and then six hundred views next day like, yeah that's that's pretty accurate. That's about what were you surprised me like what is going on? Who's WHO's watching this I was hoping that something like that would happen i. mean you know when when I put it on Youtube and asked whether I wanna make it public as it would be pretty cool if other people could could benefit from this. But when you start getting not just the views but for I'd say the comments especially, you know people like opening up on the Youtube message boards are opening up on. You know they'll. They'll. They can do the private a messaging on on Youtube and they'll tell you their life story how that one video on their perspective. I'm like, Oh, my God this is. This is a for that person that video is a big deal and I didn't really have to do anything extra for that person It's really inspiring and I just got more and more hooked on it. How meanwhile I mention I? Mean you you're still with Dan at this point at the Hedge Fund and then I guess at some point he decides to move the Fund to California right. Yeah we had moved out to Silicon Valley Dansk wife had become a professor at Stanford, which is why we had moved out here and So my wife was able to finish her fourth year med school during a bunch of rotations out here in the bay area. So we you know now that we're on the west coast I was working from five am till about the afternoon. So before our first child was born, I had a lot of time on my hands. Spending about you know that four hours at four to five hours spending after work I was spending about half of it making videos about half of continuing to write code right that software that practice offer for my family that other people are not using, and by two thousand, seven, two, thousand, eight, it was the tens of thousands of people, and by two thousand nine, it was in the hundreds of thousands of people were using it on on a regular basis. At. What point did you say to yourself I think want to do this. I. Think I want to do is full-time I think actually want to. Turn this into something. There were many moments you know you can imagine in the investing world you have your share of not so great days. Maybe, this is not what I should do. Maybe I should be you know this virtual tutor and then you're like Okay Stop Dreaming Sal, look, you gotta pay off your debt pay off your mortgage, etc etc. So had multiple cycles that over the years people in Silicon Valley they do understand quitting your job you know some Angel Investor Rights One, hundred, thousand dollar check and right you're off to the races but. Yeah, I did incorporated as a not for profit in two thousand eight to protect it from the get go. You said this is going to be a nonprofit even before you decided to. Make this your full time job. In my mind it was almost an it was initially an emotional thing to do which. I was getting these letters from folks saying how it helped them and. That was such a precious thing people's trust in me that I never wanted them to to even suspect that I'm doing it for any other reason. Now, there's a lot of for profits in many industries that do incredible things and education for profits that do good things you know was working at a hedge fund I believe in capitalism I believe in in markets but. while. I was at a hedge fund. I. Saw how much capital structure and incentives can really drive what an organization does and yeah, and the only organizations that really do stay true to some social bottom line over long periods of time are nonprofits I did have some folks who are reaching out to me by two thousand and eight saying, Hey, our kids have been using your stuff. We think it's great. We think this is going to be the next big attack. Can I write a check and we'll start this thing sure and it was tempting. But then by the second conversation, it was always like we'll give this for Free Hook people, and then you have the freemen condor salad. And that just felt a little queasy to me. So. But even when I set it up as a nonprofit I said, you know I'm not going to quit my day job I have a great day job. You know this Hedge Fund thing I can I can make a lot of money. What I can do is a nonprofit as other volunteers who wanNA help maybe if we get some philanthropy, maybe I can help hire other people and maybe if you know if I could be on a trajectory like Dan was. Dan Dan. If he kept at, it could've easily become the next Warren Warren Buffett but you know he decided to Kinda pseudo retire at forty two. focus focus on his family. When if he kept going, he could have easily become a multi-billionaire. Wow and I'm like maybe I can retire early and be reasonably well off yet that I could I could do this at that point. That I mean that make sense of the plan was. Let. Me Make the money I need to make and be financially secure, and then I can devote my life to this thing and not worry about money. Yeah. Exactly. Right. So. So. What? How did you decide to leave that? Relatively secure and stable and that stable. But you know this this path towards immense riches and jump into this full-time. What what happened? What was the catalyst? there's this Guy Jeremiah Hennessy who's the founder of bj's restaurants. He got my email address and emailed me and I was like, Oh, this guy runs a large restaurant chain publicly traded. Legitimate I should talk to him and he's I started having like these therapy conversations with them almost like on a weekly basis and he would just keep calling me and say sal. Your purpose in life is not to be a hedge fund investor I'm sure you're good at it, but that's not your purpose in life. You don't realize the content you've made what it's done for my own family what it could do for the world you need to be doing this and he's like there's gotta be some way that someone will fund this as a nonprofit the impact on the world could be so huge and so. When a legitimate person tells you that this is a legitimate thing to do you start saying maybe but then you go home, you look at your, you know my my son was born in February of two, thousand nine and I'm like, okay I have another mouth to feed we. we were renting a house. Rented gone up because we had to move to larger house my mother-in-law had moved in with us as well like there's no way I could do this right now you were not a millionaire. I, was not a millionaire. And then by. Fall of two thousand nine. There are several hundred thousand folks we're using. The stuff I was making on a regular basis. I got a call from the local tech. Museum. They had this annual award ceremony, which is a pretty high profile thing called the tech awards and they call this at you've been nominated one of three entities nominated to win this year's Tech Award and I was like, wow. And I was getting that validation that like what people are starting to take notice of this thing and then CNN had called. Around the exact same time I mean if everyone remembers the context, the market was falling apart and it turns out I had made videos on not just on math and science actually had made videos explaining the stock market and videos explaining what mortgage-backed securities were credit default swaps, and is debt obligations and I started getting media houses contacting me saying we are watching your explanations before reporting on the financial crisis. Wow we think they're the best explanations out there and that I remember Rick Sanchez on CNN reached out to me says I want you to come onto my show for twenty minutes and explain the financial crisis to America. So I'm like well, like people are paying attention. So that was like my first signs from the universe that maybe this is what I should be doing. Your wife I, think was not yet of doctor. She was still in residency or maybe he was a she was in fellowship at this point. When you said Hey I'm going to leave finance. and. Do this. was she nervous I mean was she like sound like scrape but I mean, we don't have enough cash or did she say okay. Do It for short period of time. It was a process. And you don't look every marriage. There's a call it moods or whether to the marriage and you know if I caught her in a bad moment, it'd be like I just got a weird look. But if I cut her good moment, she'd be like, no, you don't like you've been showing me these letters you've been getting they are incredible and it. Does seem like you're onto something but but but then let's look at our finances and we would look at it. You know a rent to Renta a four bedroom house out here at the time it seemed like a lot of was four, thousand dollars a month we were she was making probably forty thousand dollars a year as a as a fellow My mother-in-law was living with us. We had a child we we were hoping to have more children. Our expenses were were only going higher So she saw that I was having trouble focusing on anything else. Down payment we were saving. We said like, okay may maybe we can dig into that for a little bit for year I also say a couple of. Had reached out and said, we're interested in what you're doing and so. I was like Oh surely one of these people will fund it. So let me let the were after the racist. Million Bucks, we're good to go. That's exactly. So I quit the job and then it doesn't work that way to work out. All right. So you jump into this with both feet and Did the money start to come in immediately. Did you start to get donors sending you checks? Kind of. Those early, those early funders who seemed promising by conversation four five I started getting. Well, this is really exciting, but it doesn't really fit in our portfolio. Our budgets are already allocated, and so you go several months into it. I did have this little donate button on on my website and there were. People starting to donate amounting to a few hundred dollars every month if it was anyone listening thank you for but. We were digging into our savings about five or six thousand dollars a month. So it was it was incredibly stressful and you know but my male ego was trying to shelter my family for from was putting on a strong face to my friends and family, and you could imagine my mother who? When I told her, I'd quit my job I. Still Her first word was what? Literally in that in that in that tone because. As we talked about. I had now fallen into a really lucrative career, and then to give that up and to do that for something that was like not something that she could tell her friends at the next Indian party. You know not only was there monetary aspect there was probably a shame aspects to this as well. that. was hard love love your mom. Yet no right. I mean she came to the United States with nothing and really you know Kinda was scraping by most of her career and her son goes to MIT and Harvard Business School. And now he's calling mom and saying. Yeah. Can Do this nonprofit thing. That no that no one has funded. Probably thing that no one is funded and I'm living off a savings, would you like to see your grandson child but I really can't support? We'd go to gatherings and I remember at one party and they kind of asked what what I do for a living and I said, well, I used to do this but you know now I do this thing where I make matthews and I, write the software as a nonprofit and and they're asking all these questions house funded with the model. I was still working on still figuring it out and I remember when they were walking away. I mean, they literally said this. He's lucky that his wife is a physician. It's like this is like a punch to the gut of your fragile male Egos. No I can support my family to you. You. Wait you wait. When we come back in just a moment how sal gets his first big donation for Khan Academy and how he eventually winds up having a slightly surreal meeting with bill. Gates, stay with US guys, and you're listening to how I built this. NPR. Support for NPR and the following message comes from our twenty twenty how I built this lead sponsor comcast business. Dave silver is a CO founder, of REC space for creatives. Dave reflects on why the wreck founders chose comcast business to help power their studios and workspaces. We could have hundreds of creators in our space. We could have fourteen studios book according Music Uploading to the cloud comcast business helped us to provide the experience that we were looking to provide to our members learn more at comcastbusiness, dot com comcast business beyond fast. 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Why do some people succeed when others fail? How do you build something with no connections no money and no experience in can you learn to develop the skills and traits? It takes to become an entrepreneur to find out the answers to all these questions pick up a copy of my new book how I built this. If you love this show, you will love this book how I built this. The book is available everywhere books are sold or at Cairo's DOT com. Hey welcome back to how I built this from NPR and. So it's two, thousand, nine and sal has just left his high paying job at a hedge fund to focus on Khan Academy full time. And since it's just him, no other coders, no other teachers this new venture is not costing him a lot of money. But what is costing him is the fact that he's no longer making any money. You know the first three months you're euphoric. You're you're super excited about your new lifestyle is this nonprofit do-gooder? In fact, ACT I would say by months seven or eight, I couldn't sleep. I I. Literally Could Sleep I, I. I was yeah I was getting anxious I was waking up in the middle of the night cold sweats I was I would I would look at my bank account for over Kennedy You know, look at our expenses, I would run financial models for my family. And my wife say. Nothing like. I. Mean in hindsight I was like I shouldn't have been so. Kept it to myself but I wasn't I was in a really bad place mentally and the stress and the anxiety was was killing me was there. May Be residual fear of like. Failing. I think there's you know we talked a lot about childhood in you know not having a lot of resources growing up think I I frankly still have. A fear of being one catastrophe away from financial hardship. Yeah and In two thousand dollars like? I made the catastrophe happen like I. Wasn't like a hurricane or something that that's ruined our finances on a fire. It's like I quit a good job and like the type of job. Is. Not Easy to. Get. A highly sought after jobs. If I really had to I could probably go get a job but what I be able to get as good of a job as what I had that that actually probably was was unlikely and. Try to channel whatever nervous energy or anxiety I had into the work is let me make more videos. Let me Let me make more content. Let me write more code and and hope that eventually someone will notice. I guess, like sort of maybe it was a kind of a low point that you hit and. A. Wealthy. Very wealthy person. We checked his end or the wife of John Door the. Billionaire venture capitalist CA reached out to. Make a donation what what was the story? Hey this is you know I I have this theory that benevolent aliens are are helping me so that Khan Academy can help prepare humanity for first contact and you know the end door coming into my life, and then you know what happened shortly afterwards was may two thousand ten and you know I was getting these donations off pay pal if people donating ten dollars, twenty dollars every now, and then a fifty dollars donation come in that was pretty exciting and then. I saw a ten thousand dollars Asian come in so. Ten thousand dollars just like that. Yeah it was I. Just like I got an email notification from like pay pal donation it's come in I was like Oh this is going to be a fifty like ten, thousand and. Dan I immediately did a Google search I was like Oh. Wow. Like and doors she's like a real philanthropist and I immediately e mailed her and I said no thank you so much for this incredibly generous donation. This is the largest donation that Khan Academy has ever received. I've tried to project like a real institution and if we were physical school, you have a building named after and and and immediately emails back and says well. You know I didn't realize you. You weren't getting this kind of donations i. see that you're based in mountain view You know I've been using your stuff with my daughters. I've been using it even myself to understand the financial crisis and accounting and finance. If, you have time I would love to grab lunch with you and. I was like, yeah, absolutely and so a week later. Maybe, a few days later, we were in downtown Palo Alto at an Indian Buffet restaurant she asks me over lunch. So what what, what's your goal here and I told her when I filled the paperwork with the IRS to become a nonprofit that little part of the forum with mission Colon, they give you the line and a half I filled out a free world class education for anyone anywhere. and. She looked at me. She's like well. That's ambitious. How do you see yourself doing that and I told her you know be very clear mission. I don't think. I'm just going to be able to check it off this weekend and then move onto healthcare or something. But I showed her she was already familiar with the content I was making I showed her the exercise, a software pot from making I said look videos are nice and I wanna keep making videos I really enjoy that I want to translate into the languages of the world but the real learning happens when students are able to work on exercises get immediate feedback. Ideally, teachers and parents can get dashboards to understand where their kids are and how to do more interventions. By, this point been rejected by so many major foundations probably about twenty of them. But, in preparation for all of them had a binder of of testimonials from around the world I. Mean it was Louis. Several hundreds, pages thick and these letters I showed it to her showed her how the the usage was growing exponentially and I like you know I think this could eventually reach like all of humanity. And she's like well, you've made a lot of progress a how I only have one question how are you supporting yourself and as? Proud of a way as possible I said. I'm. Not. She kind of processes that and she's thinking you're a big shot. You're like doing TV interviews and Hundreds, thousands of people using this like, right? Yeah. No I mean I had been on. And I didn't realize there was actually there was a buzz about Khan Academy in Silicon Valley at the time but I didn't know about no one. But I wasn't in the No. I wasn't even the right circles to be experiencing the buzz and so anyway, she she she she offered to pay the bill and I said Oh if you insist. And ten minutes later I'm driving into my my driveway and I get text message from an and it says. You really need to be supporting yourself. I've just wired you one hundred, thousand dollars. How That was just one of those moments where you just stare at the phone and you sit in your driveway for like the next half an hour. Wow. Like you know. Holy Crap. I mean I think. I might have cried like it was that type of You know all that stress built up over the months all of a sudden. It just gets released. You know inside that one, hundred thousand was all of a sudden change everything forever but it's like, okay I can now pay my bills. Were Not GonNa have to dip into savings. It gave a like. I. Can do this for a few more months for a year at least or maybe a little longer. So so she fires you hundred thousand dollar check and. I guess that same year two, thousand, ten The Aspen Ideas Festival happens and Bill Gates is there and he's he's telling the audience that he uses this thing called Khan Academy. How did you find out about Bill Gates? Mentioning you at Aspen. So. Start getting text messages for man. Would, you can imagine I now take very seriously and she four or five of them and kind of cryptic as text messages often are, and they said, this is an writing I'm at the Aspen Ideas, festival main pavilion. Walter. Isaacson Interviewing Bill Gates. Gates. Last five minutes talking about Khan Academy. Wow and Let's just kinda stared I was like, what is she talking about and I started doing a web search for Aspen Gates Khan. Academy. After about ten minutes actually found like the delayed. Recording of the interview and Walter is in. Ask Bill Gates. What are you excited about right now Didn't even say. And he says, well, there's this one guy. I think his name is Sal Khan and he's critical Khan Academy. I've been using with my kids I've been using it myself. It's really great and and it was not only was he using it but he was he was eerily familiar with my story. He's like, yeah, this one guy, his his wife let him quit his job he was making stuff for his cousins. One of those moments where you're just like is this really happening Mike? What did you have any idea that Bill Gates was using this was his children. I had no idea what at all I mean it. It was it definitely gelled with some of the delusions that I've had over over time but. It. I, I, I had no clue and. I remember that night I went home I immediately showed my wife, the video when she got home from fellowship and you know we both kind of stared at each other a little bit and I was just like, what do I do now? I could do do I. Do I, call him how do I contact I'm sure he's not listed. Contact Bill. Gates. Was An obvious and. Simultaneously a reporter from fortune. Had reached out actually before this happened saying Oh you know. There's this thing you're doing. It's really interesting. We'd like to do a story about it, and so I was already talking to the reporter and that reporter calls and he's like, did you know that bill? Gates uses Khan Academy as I had no idea and then the reporter Robert Kaplan with fortune he says. I'M GONNA Call Bill Up. I'm like if you think you can call bill up and do that, and so he calls me like two days. He's like bill took my call he I just interviewed Bill Gates about you and and it's like this really surreal thing because. This person this obviously like a lifetime hero. Up In computer science reading about Bill Gates and and then the fortune article came out. And I still had not met bill yet or even had any contact with them and the article said something like the title was Bill Gates is favorite teacher. Wow. The press sometimes rights hyperbolic headlines to I always felt insecure as like my favorite teacher. Did he say that they misrepresenting? Serious Imposter Syndrome, and then I got a call a cell phone rings. Record a video and I answer I say hello and I hear you know this is Larry Cohen, Bill Gates of Staff. You might have heard that bills a fan and I was like, yeah, I heard that. And if you're if you're free over the next couple of weeks, would love to fly up to Seattle and learn more about what you're doing. Maybe ways we could work together and I was looking at my calendar for the month Completely Blank and Said maybe next Wednesday. Cut My nails do some laundry. I'm happy to meet. Happy. Happy to meet with bill can make that work So yeah, I flew up and we had that meeting. What was that like? and. It was a little bit awkward. Wasn't like an obvious like. Oh, you know what you're doing. It was like Oh. So you know Y- There's a little bit of a prompt I. Think Larry Medicine Tell Bill what you're up to, and then I just started into into. My laminated slides. And with me love it, you didn't bring laptop. You brought laminated slides I love that. I mean there's an irony to it that I'm obviously someone involved in technology counterfeiters based on technology. I'm presenting to the creator of powerpoint. So. Yeah. I went through an and and at the end and he didn't give during the presidential lot of feedback. So I just kept going and it's one of those moments where you know. Twenty percent of your brain is trying to do what it needs to do, and then the other eighty percent of your brains saying. You're talking to Bill Gates that's Bill Gates. He's three feet away. Don't mess this up south don't mess up your about to mess this up don't mess up And then when I was kind of done he kind of he's like, yeah, noticed a ton of sense. This is great. This is great and I'm like, Oh, my God you know. And then I got overconfident I, I, remember I throw another. That doesn't make sense you're right. Wow. But was there any like end? Here's a plan on how we could collaborate. was there any of that at all? They ask they bill said, well, what would you do with more resources and you know I think this is the question I have to answer really well and I said look you know it's just me and closet right now with more resources. We could translate this to the languages of the world. We could build out the software platform. Some more people can access it. We could tools for teachers and I said I think we could were reaching hundreds of thousands now I think we could reach a million folks by the end of the year and it could be ten or one, hundred, million. You know by the end of the decade this need for that and you know I said look if I if I. Could hire up about five six engineers and educators and content folks I. Think we'll be up and running So you know fully loaded costs in silicon valley be million million and a half dollars a year and so this and yeah, we'll. We'll. We'll think about that. That seems reasonable. So and then a few days later they said Yeah that's they could do that. So I started talking to the Gates Foundation about about that that grant and simultaneously. Folks from Google had reached out. Google had made this promise in two thousand eight, which was a ten year anniversary of Google that it would donate ten million dollars to five projects that had the potential to change the world, and they determined that one of those projects has to be a project that has a chance to educate the world and. They on their own said, we've done a lot of research and we think what you are doing has the best chance of helping to educate the world. Okay well, I'm glad you've been listening in on my delusions and by fall of two thousand, ten about the Google and the gates foundation each gave about two million dollars So we had four million dollar initial funding for that first two years to hire team internationalize and start scaling. Khan Academy. Wow more than four million dollars. So now you've got to. Grow. You've gotTa Build. You've gotta get office space, but a higher people you've got to really turn this. Thing, that was just you into. Thing. So what did you? Do I mean that's kind of overwhelming a bright. Isn't it. Yeah, it was I. Mean I'm usually call. One of my closest friends Shaath Newson, how he was someone I met actually in Louisiana he beat me at a math competition in tenth grade, and then we were on the same team representing Louisiana. Academic Game. So that's how I got to know him. He ended up becoming my roommate freshman year at. Mit. We're pretty much like brothers and I said, he shot the new help like I. Know This wasn't on your career path to to start to help me kind of get the sing off the ground but like I need your help and I think it'll be fun and. You know he he took a couple of days to think about it and. He decided to take the plunge with me, and so he quit his McKinsey job and joined. Khan. Academy is as the President and COO essentially help me turn into a real organization at the same time. There were these two engineers it's what's really eerie how these people came out of the woodwork to engineers that summer. Ben came into Jason Rozov did volunteered for Khan Academy and I assume there are some young kids are looking for some experience. But when they were volunteer, I'm like these are incredible. These are some of the best engineers and designers I've ever worked with in my life who are they, and then I realized that actually known figures. Like. A really well known engineers and designers. and. So they were something my next call Said Hey would you guys WanNa work fulltime for Khan Academy? I, think we're going to get funding and They after a few months, we were convinced them. They worked initially remotely from New York. Then they were able to to move out to the bay area. So as you began to grow and scale and more people I'm assuming you kind of wanted to professionalize it a little bit more and maybe kind of start to replace some of those early screen capture videos. That you've made in two, thousand, six and seven. Yeah the interesting there's a constant tension as an organization grows. Of How do you make sure you do what's right from a professionalization point of view from scaling from a managerial point of view. But how do you make sure that you're not just doing the things that everyone else does that ends up creating these large bureaucratic organizations that? Aren't always the most innovative and how do you make sure you don't lose whatever secret sauce you had that made you success initially and a lot of con- academies. I say not. So secret sauce I believe was its ECCENTRICITY has quirkiness. It's in formality coupled with its depth, an intuition and desire to. Show. The wonder in the universe and the curiosity and So you know the last ten years for me have just been how do I? How do I balance that you know? Can I bring in other people who also compliment us but we do not lose that entrepeneurship that creativity that curiosity eccentricity that the quirkiness that made Khan Academy what it is. What's the I mean at that point you were still. You're offering still math and. finance. Was the ambition to. To offer as much as you possibly could offer in as many subject areas as possible. Yeah I remember writing these envisioning docs back in two thousand, eight, two, thousand, nine says, okay. We want to create a world where anyone on the planet has access to all the core academic learning they need from pre k. through the core of College Subjects in grades it was part of the initial vision that yeah one day we would try to figure out you know language arts, humanities, etc because they're important early learning. And then we'll just keep running experiments to see how they go and and You know we're we're still on that journey. Yeah. I interview dumb. The founders of head space different. Obviously a for profit company is a meditation APP but initially, all the meditations were Andy Andy Party Com-. If you're familiar with it, I'm very I'm very familiar with right and initially all the videos were were Sal Khan but sal Khan is not scalable. You cannot make tens of thousands of videos was that clear to you pretty pretty soon after you started the funding started come in that you needed to get other people to make videos to your standards. Now, we don't have a lot of folks making videos I still make. A lot of them I pretty much all of the math and science video and we have a few other folks who are doing some history videos and some language arts videos. And one of the reasons why we were we became a little sensitive of like not just outsourcing it to five hundred folks. We got a lot of feedback that. Education even what is done in this kind of distance way synchronous you have to trust your teacher. You have to trust that they're going GonNa get to someplace that I I know is going to be insightful, and there's going to be an a Ha moment that you're willing to invest in it, and we've had moments where you know there's a video for me a video from me, and then there's video from someone else just even though they might be explaining that better than I could have it could be dissonant for the student where they're feeling wait I really got catch it that my teacher now substitute showed up. So what we've been trying to. Balance that. It's amazing. I met David Coleman, a couple of years ago the head of the College Board and he talked about the partnership that they did with Khan Academy where you offer free sat prep which. Is. Essentially. Really. Had a pretty big impact on the four prophet sat prep industry because you're essentially offering this product and service for free. Yeah. You know. I think all of these players they're trying to do what they can in the context that they're doing it but David Coleman reached out. and it was really I think David's brainchild when he took over the College Board that you know the cod were the folks who administer the sat and the AP exams. It was the cause was a non for profit that came into existence to try to level the playing field that yeah, a hundred years ago. The only kids who are getting into Ivy League schools where kids of legacy kids who have scored to the rights knows exactly and the notion of the sat is, let's give a chance for the kid in Louisiana to to to to compete with the kids from an Dover or Chote or deerfield. As we know this whole industry billion dollar industry came up around what look like creating a perceived and maybe actual advantage for the for the you know upper-middle-class or or a fluent and David said, look we've been. Secretly observing Khan Academy and what we really like about. Khan. Academy is y'all about really learning the material I had actually made some sat videos for navy and my cousin facts you went through the sat practice book and I did every problem in the book on video for my cousins. That it was a four hundred something problems and I was afraid that the college would was going to sue me because I didn't take their permission to like screen capture their problems. Davis I watched that and what I really liked about it is and no point. Did you say, Oh, this is how you guess you always said Oh this is a concept you need to learn to be ready for college. This is where you learn it. This is how you learn it. There's a little bit of test-taking strategies. He's like that's what test prep should be. It should be something that generally makes you better generally makes you more prepared for college and and how you perform the sat's going to be a byproduct product of that. Yeah. So he said how about we partnered create the world's best test prep that happens to be free and It made sense to me, and over time the relationship volved were they actually pay US resources To Create Free Test Prep which is, you know that's that's the type of revenue I love it sustain us, but it's it's free those student. This year the most challenging year for school age kids For many decades. And it's looking like this year probably will be remote mostly, it will be remote for many many if not most kids in the United States. I have to imagine that you have seen a dramatic uptick in user's usage this year. Yeah. Yeah we we I caught wind in February this past February that you know something interesting was happening. We got a letter from a teacher in south. Korea telling us that he was heavily dependent on Khan Academy is they had their their nationwide school closures and that was the sounds like, wow. A whole country's closing schools because of this Cova thing that's that's and. A few weeks later. I live here in Santa Clara County, which is I think it was the first community spread happened to your hand local private school had to shut down due to contact tracing. That's what it I don on us. It's like, wow, this hit the US at which even then seemed like science fiction in early. March. But you know it was one of those. Moments where you look left and you look right you realize I think this is us. 'cause if schools have to shutdown physically in the United States people are going to need something clearly, online would have to cover multiple subjects in grades would have to efficacy research behind it. It would have to be trusted you. It should be accessible on mobile devices and computers everything. It was clear. We're GONNA we're have a big role to play. So we started you know acid engineering team to stress test servers make sure we can handle more server load and then the next week you know California was one of the first states to say that they were going to close and then. By the week, pretty much most of the country and the world had shut down. You know we normally see about a pre cove. It was about million students were coming per month and that increased to thirty million. Then they were also spending fifty percent more time on the site Registrations went through the roof they those ten of of normal on a daily basis and I think right now we're sitting at around one hundred, ten million registered users. What, what is your? What is your operating budget? Your annual operating budget? Our annual operating budget now is in the high fifty million which every time. I, say it gives me a cortisol bike. Yeah But about a five, million of our of our funding comes from a few hundred thousand people donating on average twenty thirty dollars. So there's a lot of people donating because coal donate button on site. Yeah. I asking people for money is a very humbling thing to do My hope was always let me show people how great this is I have to become a little bit more explicit saying that I have a need and then hopefully people would show up. Yeah. I think less than a check. It's more than this. Now Khan Academy videos have been viewed like. Almost two billion times. Which is Insane I have to imagine sal over the last few years as the kind of Ed tech sector has exploded right and lots of schools by these programs, dream box and other four prophet. Programs that are available to help children with math and other language skills, etc I mean I'm sure people can't even sow. Let's spin off a for profit channel here. You've got something big here. You know there's there you know, and then you won't have to worry about raising money for for Khan Academy you know you can still do that but let's let's do that. I mean that must have happened must still happen. You know we do. oftentimes you know sometimes I'll go to a potential. PHILANTHROPIES will. I'd rather invest than donate. Something like that. People, I think there's some creative ideas that I would entertain. They're like Khan Academy is brand valuable. What if we could take that brandon? Do it in this tangential spaces and Khan Academy can have equity and maybe it can help build an endowment for. I'm always open to. Ideas. But what? I always remind myself and look I'm I'm not someone who has transcended material desires I tried to transcend material desires but. I have go to a friend. Who's you know done well with a Po or something and they've got the new tesla or living. You know they're living slightly upstream the income gradient. And living a little higher up the hill. But I remind myself. One I consider myself incredibly fortunate to be able to do what I I am doing, and the way I think about is I've done my philanthropy in reverse order and I stayed in the Hedge Fund world and you know maybe one day become a multimillionaire or larger and then but then what I've done with that money. I, you know I'm not. Someone who who wants that much I I want to be able to you know have have a backyard be able to best support the family you know go on vacation once or twice a year right and anything above that. If I did become a billionaire I would have donated it to an effort like Khan Academy. So you might as well just cut out the middleman. Time, shift it and work on and and I do generally think that it has benefited the mission and the vision because once people hopefully are viewing it as an institution they do they're they're they're rooting for it because they they realized that it's not it doesn't have an ulterior motive. You know the the everybody I've had on the show over the past four years that you are most like Jimmy Wales. Jimmy. Wales had an incredibly enormous influence on the world with wikipedia. Right? Had they done this as a for profit? He could have been a multimillionaire his argument was it wouldn't have worked. You had to make a nonprofit and by the way he said look I don't really care about having lots of money I. I have a really interesting life. I. Get to meet really interesting people, Interesting People WanNa, meet me I get to have. Get exposed to all these ideas that to me is worth more than any amount of money I could ever have and I that's really stuck with me because I. Think. He's right I think he's right. I agree with I mean I. Like Jimmy, Wales, by virtue of this adventure, I've been on I get lenses into really interesting parts of the world which for the most part have made me more optimistic about the world you know I every now and then I'm you know get invited to various conferences that you know where you know very powerful people are talking about the problems of society and how to fix them, and when when you when you when you get into these circles, you realize most of these people are honestly just trying to help you might not agree with everyone etcetera etcetera but it's it's actually been very It's made me more optimistic about the world not less. When you think about this just this incredible journey in the amazing success of of Khan Academy. How much do you think it has to do with you know your skill and how hard you worked in intelligence and how much do you attribute it to lock It's all. All of the above I mean it's you know one person can call it. One person might call it benevolent aliens working in your favor to prepare humanity for first contact. But yeah, there's something. That I I can't i. mean there's a lot that I can't take credit for I mean and above and beyond luck. Sir I. Guess It's luck where I was born where I was born a had the teachers I had had a the friendship supports that I had and then. Fell into things at the right time and but every now and then you see a door crack open, you save I think there's something interesting on the other door and you've got to sprint through it, and so I try not to overthink when when there are signs in my life that that doors open don't don't don't make someone have to force through the door. Like, run through that door. And Sal Khan founder of Khan Academy. By the way if you google his full name Salman Khan, you will find at least one other famous person who has exactly the same name. That other Salman Khan is one of the most popular Bollywood Actors in the world and actually I was I was in India five years ago and I met him I think it's just because you know people from this kind of get a kick out of things like that. Let's get this guy and that guy. So, there's there's some youtube videos of US having getting co interviewed. He's a he's a big star. He's he's a big heartthrob. He's major Maitra. He's also very well known for his physique. He's kind of the guys that that that taught bollywood that. Indians all have to look like software engineers. And thanks so much for listening to this show this week, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can write to us at H. I. bt NPR DOT Org. Our twitter handles are at how I built this or at Iras are instagram accounts are at guide dot Roz or at how I built this NPR. Our show is produced this week by Jan Andersson with music composed by routine Arab Louis thanks also to Julia Carney candice limb, Derek Gaels JC, Howard Grant, and Jeff Rodgers. And you've been listening to how I built this. This is NPR. Is NPR's only Spanish language podcast simple stories. You won't hear anywhere else told by the voices that make Latin America come alive each week we bring you another remarkable story that will surprise in movie. New episodes every Tuesday, listen and subscribe.

sal Khan Khan Academy Youtube Dan Dan Louisiana United States NPR New Orleans Pat Brown India Nadia A. Silicon Valley MIT founder Fund Harvard Business School AIRBNB California
368. Where Do Good Ideas Come From?

Freakonomics

1:02:36 hr | 1 year ago

368. Where Do Good Ideas Come From?

"A previous episode number three sixty seven. If you're cutting was about the future of meat, one of the people helping determine that future is via chemists named Pat Brown. He founded a company called impossible foods whose mission is whose mission is to completely replace animals as a food production technology by twenty thirty five the science behind Brown's idea is fascinating impressive and all that. But it has also to me at least it's also an act of remarkable creativity. Well, just in principle, it should be possible to produce food that deliver all the qualities that consumers. Want more sustainably from plant making me out of plants was not Pat Brown's first creative breakthrough years earlier as a Stanford researcher. He created a genetic tool called the DNA micro array that lets you learn how the genome rights life story of Sal. As interesting it was to talk to Pat Brown about both the DNA, micro array and impossible meat. I found myself thinking about an even more interesting question, or at least a much broader one whether we're talking science or the arts or business where do creative ideas come from. So today, unforgiving straight. He'll we resume our occasional how to be creative series with that question. Some ideas as will here are made possible by new technologies, and that's what enabled the revolution in our ability to map the universe. Some ideas are imposed by deadline when you have a lot of restrictions. Also have something to struggle with to fight against in some ideas. Sometimes they come out of nowhere, you think? And then it turns out that they came from the future, and we're should you look for inspiration inspiration is for amateurs the rest of just show up and get to work. And then. From Stitcher and productions this is freakonomics radio the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host, Stephen Duffner. Up to this point in our series on creativity. We've looked at some myths like the connection between creativity and dysfunction. It's false many creative people do have dysfunctional families, but not every creative person as a dysfunctional family. We looked at the connection between creativity and school schools end up focusing on the things that are most easily assessed rather than focusing on the things that are most valuable for kids. So what we need to do is to focus more on trying to assess the things we've rather than valuing things that are most easily assess. But we haven't figured out yet. How to answer the question. You may ask whenever you see an enormously creative thing whether to sculpture or movie or a scientific leap, how do they come up with that idea? The idea, of course is just the beginning. I'm sure you've heard the famous saying generally tributed to Thomas Edison genius is one percent inspiration ninety nine percent, perspiration, still. What about that? One percent. Where does it come from? And how can you get more of it? You know in the evening when I'm listening to music. That's when ideas come it's very important to feel free. I don't think there's any way you can be creative without failing free. That is the pioneering astrophysicist Margaret Geller. I like to say that I've spent my life mapping the universe. Giller is responsible for discoveries about the disk. Bution of galaxies in the universe. The fact that they're offering clumps and not distributed evenly to reach that. Understanding Geller had together. Many observational of distant galaxies, essentially, take pictures of them. And the thing that enabled us to do. What we did was a big change in the technology. Giller started doing this research around nineteen eighty so at that time what happened is that people went from photographic plates to what we call solid state detectors now that may be a confusing term, but every single person has one of those in their pocket. So your cell phone the detector in it, the thing you take pictures with is a so-called charge coupled of ice, and it's about as big as your fingernail, we use those same things and astronomy bigger ones. And that's what enabled the revolution in our ability to map the universe. The galaxies Geller wanted to observe. We're. Many light years away. I think it's amazing to think about that that these photons these particles of light travel through the pretty empty universe for hundreds of millions billions of years. They don't hit anything till they hit these tiny detectors on this tiny speck of dust. We call the earth we interpret those signals to figure out what the universe looks like. And how it came to be. So the question was are there patterns in the universe? Are there features? Is there some geometry? So that's where Geller's pathbreaking idea came from. I there was a new technology that afforded a much better view of the universe. Then the big question that hadn't been answered what is the underlying geometry of the universe? So then the question is the universe is big in life is short. So how do you address this question if you have? A small telescope and you want to get done. So I began to think about the earth and the patterns on the surface of the earth. So what are the biggest patterns? It's the continents and the oceans, so suppose, you're an alien, and you wanna know whether the earth has continents and oceans, but you can only see a tiny fraction of it say the fraction covered by Rhode Island. What shape do you take for the sample that you're allowed to see? Well, if you take a patch, you're not gonna learn much because most of the time it'll land in the ocean, but you can take a very thin great circle around the earth. And there are a few great circles that pass through only oceans, but those are few most will cross both the landmass and the ocean, you'll find out that the earth has two kinds of patterns both big now the universe, of course, is not a two dimensional surface. It's three dimensional place. So the anals. To this great circle is a slice in three dimensional space. So that's we did we map galaxies in this three dimensional slice of the universe. So Geller and her fellow researchers took a three dimensional slice of the universe and mapped. The galaxies contained inside it turned out that the survey we made the slice was just thinking off, and it reached just deep enough in the universe to see what turns out to be the characteristic pattern in the way galaxies are arranged in the universe. So galaxies surround huge regions that are dark essentially devoid of galaxies. That are tens of millions of light years across and the galaxies are in thin structures that surround these kinds of empty regions, and that turns out to be the characteristic structure that people now call the cosmic web, and what's. And what's like to be able to look into the sky and see the deep structure of the universe. It's a kind of thrill that you never forget. I think there's a kind of all I think that there's an artistry in nature that has a beauty that we're all wired up to appreciate. So Margaret Geller's idea happened like this. She started from what was already known and unknown. She looked at new capabilities technology gave her she formulated a big important question and found a smart way to answer that question using the new tools at her disposal. Sounds like a rational way to come up with an idea. Lease in retrospect, there's another deeply rational sort of question that can lead to good ideas. It goes like this. Isn't it ludicrous? So many things we encounter every day are designed so poorly. Rather arrogant way of putting it. That's James Dyson professional. I do go around looking at things critically to see if the a good idea of the Caban improvement all how I would improve it. I think I think radio almost all engineers do that. If you not really an engineer Dyson along with Elon Musk is among the most famous living inventors, but unlike musk dreams up hyperloop and Mars missions Dyson has worked on wheelbarrows in hand dryers and most profitably vacuum cleaners. It turns out he's been fairly obsessed with the vacuum cleaner since childhood. I mean, I remember is my container at home in the early fifties. Screaming away, making us NAS to style smell of dust and not really picking things up. And I remember it wasn't very good machine. The please to use it. And I think it was the electrical device we had in the house. We didn't have sockets on the wolves in those days. So you got to take out. The light bulb spent on. And connect into the light bulb soak it not pull to hug with the cold later on Dyson had his own family and a home with its own dust. And I thought what was supposed to be the most powerful that contain ever made. And I noticed I had the same old problem about by at had paper bags relevant cloth bags but same screaming noise. Same smell of style dusk. It's not picking things up a bit. Now being an engineer. I took it to biz and realized that all the F flow had to go through the bag. And of course, the bag has little holes in it. And they get blocked by the very first dust that goes into the bag. So that that complainant bag is full not because it's full, but because it's a little bit of Dustin it that blocks little holes in it. And I I'm angry about this. Actually, I felt this is this is bad. A light bulb gives you a hundred balls until it goes Paul will call guys along subdue Mosleh would've is to get in until it breaks down. But a vacuum king has a reducing performance. And that's not really very satisfactory. They didn't act on his frustration. Immediately. At the time us busy manufacturing different invention of his called ball. Barrow? Abol barrow is a wheelbarrow. But rather than the small wheel up front that can be hard to maneuver and get stuck in the mud. It has fearful wheel a ball atop its metal frame, and we had to put in a powder casing plant code the frames, and we had a a screen cloth screen while the lack of Katina bag that kept getting clogged with the powder and discover efficient factors used to think to cycling, which is about thirty foot high. Which spun the powder out by central falls, rob of having clogging filter. So I decided to make one a couple of weekends now under stand you copied one from a sawmill. Yes. Yes. What Berlin leaked to the the faith fine powder? All day long clean-air pit come out of the gymnast top of it and the clogging problem with going away. And I wanted as I was welding this thing up whether the in miniature you could put one evacuating. So raced home and ripped the bag off my vet continue and I made a call bull shit. We've gotta Tate. And Kabul and push it around my house, and it appeared to work it appeared to work, but not well enough. They says he Bill five thousand one hundred twenty seven prototypes. Over five years today. The Dyson vacuum is one of the world's bestsellers the Dyson company, which also makes air purifiers and hairdryers has annual revenues of more than three billion dollars and Dyson himself has a net worth of more than five billion dollars. He's also been knighted. So that worked out pretty well for him. But what if you don't have five years to tinker with an idea what if you have more like five days or five hours? Hello. Good to see you. House family. Good growing that that's an old friend of mine an old collaborator. My name is christoph- Neiman, and I'm trader and author Neiman is German but lived in New York for years now, he's back in Berlin. And so was I last summer visiting his studio you may recognize his work more than two dozen New Yorker covers his abstract Sunday column and much more from the New York Times also children's books his illustrations often turn on a clever transformation. A pair of bananas that represent a horse's hindquarters. Poppy seed bagel is repurposing into a man's chin, mid shave, even when the topic is serious Neiman has a playful streak like the New Yorker cover. He made after the Fukushima nuclear disaster against a black background Neiman. Drew the branches of cherry tree the blossoms of familiar pink. We're in the shape of the international radiation symbol, the tree foil. Well, when I started out it was fairly easy, easy in the sense of like simple. I would get a call from a magazine or newspaper, and they would say we have a story on the stock market some political event, we have a certain space. We here's the headline. Here's the article we need a visual equivalent to the headline. How many? My record was forty five minutes for time's up at page because the Pakistani decided to tester nuclear weapons at three thirty and the paper went to print at five once they had to decision. I had I think thirty minutes to actually do the entire drawing usually from day to a week. Sometimes it's actually years for very open assignments give me just an example to be short long. Big small of a particularly difficult problem that you had to solve with an 'lustration well for me the difficult. But also, the fun problems were always the ones where you have to tell a boring story through an interesting visual when you have an interesting story to say, somebody cures cancer or they land Times Square. There is no can't add great layer with visuals. Because with the aliens, you just want a photo of the aliens. There's no smart metaphorical. Illustration to be done if somebody were to cure cancer. I just one like a big fat headline. There's no smart image of somebody celebrating. There is nothing to add there. So I think these visuals often were the best when you have a subtle story, or maybe even a boring story or a story that's being told a million times, the equivalent and pop music would be I love you. It has been said and sung legs zillion times two questions. Can you? Do it. Interesting again. So I often found it boring economic stories were thanks. No great way to tell an interesting story. Not by saying this is completely new information. But while think about that in different way. And as for years, I was strain in the New Yorker financial Columbine, James Wiki brilliant column. And I remember one was about how. Small companies updating their technical. Machinery Hodak an indicator for for something. And of course, that's not a very sexy fem-. So it was really about. A small accounting for buying new computers and how often they do that. And of course, I didn't want to draw counts. Computers. So I actually drew the grim reaper, and he looks into shop window to shop window. There's a there's a big sickle. And then there's a lawn mower and then an electric lawnmowers same kind thinking about whether he should find the upgrade. And of course, you have to you have to know the metaphors requires a bit of a leap with a story like that. It's much. Interesting to them at a visual layer. So Neiman routinely needs to generate ideas on demand often on a tight deadline. How does that happen? I guess with these kind of metaphor 'lustration what I do is. I try to these images or like words, and like written language it requires that the writer and the reader speak the same language. So when I think of a simple to think what symbol is known. When you have like Cest pushing the wrong, I have to assume people know image if they don't any pun. I would make based on that one work. I think that's very important skill set for for for designers to be very aware of visual language, and what's known, also, especially what's what's not known. I'm so busy. Then what I do is. I try to go. It's almost like running through wheel of every possible symbol. And then starting the second wheel with twisted image, and then trying to combine two symbols say do something on money. And then you go to okay dollar sign graph. The. Physical dollar Bill. And then maybe it's about money in sports basketball football baseball, and you try to take all these symbols and mix them together. And then nine hundred ninety nine times, it means nothing. And then all of a sudden, there's tennis graph and go what if I take the graph and weave it into tennis, Rick, which is I'm sure been done gazillion times of great idea. But basically, it's just running these two wheels against each other. And then being very. Very attentive. And seeing what clicks, and this usually happens in the process of drawing and to have that on the paper because in the act of drawing things than a little different than you would imagine in your head. And then all of a sudden, you wait a minute. That's I had idea in my head. But now did a put down on paper something is off. And that moment words off usually only then an interesting use eviction comes to life. There's a point we should make about the kind of ideas that Neiman was coming up with they were generally in response to a commission, basically a buyer contacting him with a request to generate sellable idea. So his ideas were the most part extrinsic Louis motivated wasn't sitting around intrinsically dreaming up by D as it turned him on. What do we know about the difference between extrinsic and intrinsic motivation when it comes to creativity? There's a lot of research we went over in detail earlier in the series episode number three fifty five if you wanna hear it research showing that extra motivation tends to diminish creativity both in quantity and quality Christoph Niemann, interestingly has been able to shift over the years from extrinsic to intrinsic motivation, partly because he's been so successful which gave him more opportunities to create what he wanted to create. But also, the shift was necessitated by changes in technology and the economy, my approach has changed. But also because media has changed and this whole deadline driven imagery is not that relevant anymore, and I feel it's more about storytelling. It's more about. Subjective point of view. And that's why I've started doing a lot more work. It's originated with me. So it's not me waiting for cue from from a story, but me going out there, and creating the story and then finding images for it involved. A lot of letting go trusting myself a lot more with my traditional work on the one hand it's harder because you have to time pressure. You have a lot more restrictions to fight against the good thing is I like to call it the Stockholm syndrome for for art when you have a lot of restrictions. Also have something to struggle with to fight against. And it's almost like holding you up you can lean on these restrictions when you have no brief it's on one hand fantastic on the other hand. It's redid this orientate is create creative freedom where you just sit down as a kid and you start drawing because you wanna draw was more under Ning, something all designers in my experience. Almost regardless field is. Sort of feel that they have some sort of intrinsic urge for self expression. That's the graphic designer Michael Barut. He's done a lot of work you'd recognize for MasterCard. The New York Jets sex Fifth Avenue, many others, so most designers he thinks have strong intrinsic urge what about Baru sometimes when I've actually examined myself, really. Honestly, I've I've I've come to think that I'm really on the extrinsic side of that spectrum. I don't actually have ideas that I want to get out that I think are personal that. I'm I I'm motivated by some need to get them in front of the world the root thrives on getting a brief from a client. Those briefs do however range from specific to amorphous in one case, I might have an assignment where I'm doing signs in a building that identify the. Through m- or the fire exits? Now, those things are meant to be functional. They can be attractive. They can be static. They can even be playful sometimes, but getting to the bathroom is an urgent matter getting to the fire exit in some cases is a life or death matter and those have to really do their job. They're very efficiently on the other hand, sometimes people Westman design a logo for their business or enterprise, and in those cases, like a logo can be more open ended, it can be and in many ways, more creative. It can be open to interpretation people can impose different meanings on. And I think the very hard of it. Indeed. Is that moment where you make something from nothing? There's a moment where you sort of have to do the magic bit of alchemy that transmits all that into something. Interesting compelling and memorable and and. That's actually the moment that all creative people live for. And I think many of them, you know, reluctant sometimes to admit how rarely that moment comes. You know, if that connection really happens three times a year, that's a landmark year for me, you know, and there's a quote from Chuck close that I've heard many people, quote, which is inspiration is for amateurs the rest of just show up and get to work. And I think that that's really true you sort of have to just be ready. So that when you kind of encounter that magic moment, you've got the muscle memory and the experience and the instincts to let you grab that opportunity. So Baru Neiman have given us some views from the creator's side of the commissioning process. What's a commission look like from the commissioning side. We spoke with an Pasternak director of the Brooklyn museum when the oldest and most prestigious art institutions in the United States. Hi, Stephen at a museum. The Brooklyn museum pasternack doesn't get do much commissioning. But in her previous job, she ran a big public. Art group called creative time did lots of big in Dacia commissions among the best known tribute. In light the nine eleven memorial made up of two shafts of light projected into the night sky. I mean, there were probably altogether about one hundred and twenty giant lights that had come from. Italy was new technology think about like a searchlight, but a really meccas light. It was actually a very enormous installation at takes weeks to actually set up the lights, and then you also need volunteer Birdwatchers to make sure that you know, birds are safe, and that they're not disoriented and flying into buildings, and there was there was a lot of stuff that was invisible to the public that had to be realized pester neck had another opportunity for a big commission when she was contacted by the owners of an enormous old building the former Domino's sugar factory on the Brooklyn waterfront it was going to be turned into a park. And the owners thought creative time like to do something with the space before it was time for demolition. I immediately reached out to an artist. I always wanted to work with CARA. Walker who was never interested in any of the ideas that I have presented to her grandson. Station, whatever spaces as working and CARA was not so interested in my said CARA, you know, come out and see the space you don't live far away. And at the very least you'll see this incredible historic site. And it was just about eight inches of molasses on the floor molasses dripping from the ceilings, it was such an incredibly intense experience. It just activated all of your senses your site, your your touch. I mean, literally you had to wear big rubber boots. When you went in there, and they would fall off because they get stuck in the floor, and the smell the smell and the heat and the moisture anyway, so I thought that space was so enormous that maybe Kehro we would do group exhibition, but I wanted to bring care of their first and Keira said to me at the end of it. You know, I I want the whole space, and I just laughed at her. I thought it was no way one artist on the, you know, micro budgets that create a time was working on could actually do something that would really work within that space. And the next morning I woke up, and I think there were over sixty different proposals. That she had sent to me literally all these drawings. Just she must stayed up all night long just one wrong after another and I loved every single one of them. And I said, okay, whichever one you want to do. But over the next four or five months. She just kept coming up with more ideas. And finally, the idea of the big giant sugar Spinks that she created was that one idea. I didn't understand. I wasn't really sure what it was or what it meant. But I trusted the artists so much. I said this is the one you want to do then we're going to do it care Walker titled this piece of subtlety or the marvelous sugar baby. She described it as an image to the unpaid and overworked artisans who have refined our sweet tastes from the cane fields to the kitchens of the new world on the occasion of the demolition of domino sugar refining plant. It became a sensation. Did you come to understand? And it differently or better. Oh, yeah. Once once I was in the space, and I saw the great sugar Spinks that if she was standing tall, she would have been as tall as the statue of liberty. And I realized she was his great symbol of an of an African woman of great power and monoral -bility and strength. And it was just so heartbreaking so powerful. And now, I see it's about how we don't see. And we do see black women and all of their beauty and all of their power and all of their courage, quite frankly, I was in tears over and over again. So the sugar sphinx wasn't an pasture next idea. But she was the Commissioner the facilitator jed idea about what kind of artist might respond well to that kind of space, and that to me at least seems like a creative act in self. Well, I guess that sounds maybe a little narcissistic on my part. But I think I think maybe that's true about having a sense of who are really great artists who say something, I believe important about the times in which we live in my desire to wanna work with them. And being able to pick out. What is a good idea? And one of the things I have learned is that artists tend to like everybody else like some structure, sometimes I would turn to artisan say, so and so you're just such a brilliant artist. Do anything to work with you? What do you want to do? And that's just to open for them. So let's say you are not commissioning massive public works of art. Let's say you're maybe a middle manager in charge of a team that has to produce some creative ideas, but say the team has ten people on it. First of all he wanted to get rid of five of those ten people because tennis too many people to have on a team. That and much more about generating creative ideas coming up right after this. Okay. Here's where we left off. Let's say you manage a team of ten employees. Maybe they're marketers or educators or engineers and your job is to inspire them to think creatively. Okay. Theresa a mob. Yele is a social psychologist at Harvard Business School. I study motivation creativity innovation and in her work life, a mob Yele has done a lot of research inside firms to see how creative work actually gets done. So for a team of ten. What's the best approach? You want to gather all ten to brainstorm wanna send them all off to come up with on their own or maybe some combination. First of all you want to get rid of five of those ten people because tens too many people have on a team. There's there's a lot of research on that five to seven tends to be the best side. Is so really solve a complex problem later on when you have to implement the solution, obviously, you can have much larger teams in you need them. So let's say you've got five people. They're all good. They have skills you'd probably do best to have them work together. Initially and talk about the problem in explore that problem in what some different angles might be make sure they kind of understand what mountain they're trying to climb. Let them go off in individually try to figure on different routes for climbing the mountain, but then bring them back together have them share their ideas. And ideally, they will have that level of trust and openness to each other that they can really bring together the best pieces of thinking, and you'll sometimes see solutions emerge that later literally cannot be traced to any one individual, but they were true hybrids of ideas of multiple individuals and what about brainstorming. Is that indeed effective way to generate good ideas? The practice of brainstorming seems to have originated with an advertising executive, Alex Osborn. He was the oh in the famous advertising firm BBDO Osborne wrote about rainstorm in nineteen forty two book called how to think up popular opinion often is at brainstorm is just sort of sitting around saying, whatever comes to your mind, but it's not, but Charlotte Nima university of California psychologist who studied creativity in organizations when Osborn talked about the brainstorming technique it had four very specific rules to it. And he thought they were very important ways to stop things tended to get in the way of generating originally is and so one of them, for example, was emphasizing quantity. Mainly just go for as many ideas. She can and don't you know, sort of stop and analyze whether they're good or not on ru. Is the notion that you should build on others ideas? But the one I paid attention to and that's that one which many people treated as the critical rule was do not criticize the ideas of others, and that has an intuitive plus ability because you think if someone's going to criticize you think, well, I'll just shut down, and we're not gonna say anything as a scholar Nima th is particularly interested in the role of dissent in organizations. So this cardinal rule of brainstorming. No dissent. Essentially, intrigued her she designed an experiment to test. Whether the criticism that Osborn warned against actually does shutdown creativity in a group what we did is we essentially change that one rule in one condition. We had the regular rules. Do not criticize in the other one. We basically encourage them to debate even criticize the ideas of others. They thought that, you know, there'd be no creativity. It would be like worse the novels. At all. And the reverse was the case when you permit debate even criticism you open that up. That were more ideas. And they were better quality ideas. When you welcomed criticism and debate me Muth also investigated the role of dissent in jury deliberations Asai listen to these tapes over and over and over and over again, what became clear is that when there was a dissenting viewpoint, particularly when that persisted is that the nature of the deliberation was just much better. They considered more evidence. They considered more ways of looking at the same so-called facts, they were more inclined to look at the downside as opposed to the upside for particular position. Someone was the spouse ING, and they evidenced all the things that really define good decision making and the kind of hope you can train people are do in. In dissent was doing that. Nima th argues descent is valuable in a decision making process, even when the dissenter turns out to be demonstrably wrong. Because even when it's wrong it actually improves the quality. Of thought in decision-making descent isn't important for the information that it gives it's important because it challenges you're thinking when you're interacting with someone who honestly believes something very different than yourself, and they're willing to persist and even pay a price. You can't easily dismiss them. Their challenge gets you to reassess your own position, Charlotte Nima th has a name for this kind of dissenter troublemaker. Her most recent book is called in defense of troublemakers. A lot of the creatives we've been interviewing for this series embrace the troublemaker title for some seems to be their animating principle like the Chinese artist. And activist. I way way he grew up in a labor camp his family having been sent into exile. Because of his father's poetry way has been one of his generation's most outspoken critics of China. He's been arrested beaten detained and finally gained his own sort of exile a much more comfortable in his father's. He now lives in Berlin. Which is where we spoke with them. So I'll always want to break the borders open you area, even walk into. Could be dangerous so typical areas. So, you know, I'm I was born like this, you know, some unkind contrarian, you know, it don't want to follow the roofs that much, you know, always been that way. Since I was born. I would see as sung of the enemy of the people. This e you are dangerous this yours someone who could have a potential to to make big trouble. They were right there perfectly rights, but I try to leave up the towards that kinda conditions can not find the what I did your brother is he a troublemaker like you or. No, no, no there. They often worried about one troublemaker every day. You know, so, but when I asked way way about where his ideas come from. He didn't have much to say. And when it come to me one interview Alexis comes I don't I don't really think much of it. Maybe that's because he's been dissenting since he was a young child. It may be that troublemaking and the idea generation that comes along with it are by now second nature. There was another artist I visited in Berlin. Her name is your in devote. Linda. So let's go that way. Booked is a star on the German art seen her work combines painting, drawing collage and more including musical and scientific notation for years. She was a serious musician. And she's got a mathematical streak to pieces are breathtakingly, original and engaging. You should look it up. Her name is spelled J O R. I N D E V O G GT. I wanted to know where her ideas originate. So I started by asking about her daily routine today. I get up at five o'clock in the morning, then I want our kitchen and my God and drink coffee and saying about the day upcoming day, then I up my son and. Help them getting up get dressed breakfast. Does he seven almost Polin seven thirty belief the house that bring him to school, and then I drive down to the studio. So I'm Sean before eight o'clock. So can we go back to our in the morning when you just sit and think about the day? Are you thinking about how to execute your ideas? Or are you trying to think about what I d is you'll work on small. It's being awake. But it's waiting for myself and observing myself and observing pictures, Mitch come up in me. And then also questioning them like a rhythm like that. It's like I get rid from always has Peter on obstructions in my head. I wake up with. And then I have to find out why what it is. And. How which questions I ask a home? What kind of actions I could do to find out? What it is so weird to those images. Come from. Can only guess. Thing. Kind of language. Communication from the intuition. I guess do you think everyone could have such a men's or do you feel? That's a talent of yours. I haven't had this always when it started that I have it. I was very irritated. And I thought something's wrong. But then told me that just go don't be afraid and the nice since. Accepted it. And then it started to be really interesting. You really have to listen very strongly to those moments. That's the painter and illustrator. My Raquel Mun. She to relies on her sub-conscious ideas. I think that plays an incredible role and it's a little bit inexplicable. It's kind of instinct, and intuition what you feel in your gut that nobody can explain that. You don't know where it came from an idea that appears from nowhere while you're taking a shower or wandering down the street. Kelman's work is on the surface whimsical old world, ladies plumed, hats, clever dogs with knowing is. But beneath the whimsey, there's a reservoir of deeper feeling coming upon things stumbling upon things, and that's a very big part of my day, and my work, and my work is autobiographical. And it's really about what happens to me. And so I don't know what's going to happen during the day. But I'm keenly aware that many things might happen and do happen that will delight me and amaze me and enter into my work. Whether it's somebody that I see on the street or some kind of meeting of someone or the chance of things will it sounds like you're trying to as they say create your unluck, you're trying to create your own serendipity, which is a good way to be. Yeah. And I don't wanna try. So that sounds like a tricky balance to strike though, you wanna be open an observant and curious, but you don't wanna try too hard to be open. Observant can't do that you you know, you fall down and never get up. Again. You just have to kind of allow that. It's going to happen. And and see that's great. So my recount and gets her ideas from serendipitous encounters that she prepares herself to receive but not too much preparation. You're in the vote gets her ideas from images that present themselves in the early morning. I recently spoke with someone who needs to come up with multiple ideas every day. Hello. I'm Conan O'Brien. And I am fear radically an entertainer. Among your entertainment products, are what at the moment. I have a podcast Conan O'Brien needs a friend. And I also just finished in eighteen city life tour that healed the nation and I have a program on TBS at eleven o'clock called Conan. Don't ask me how I came up with the name. It was too long story and involved in our system. O'brien has been hosting a late night show since the early nineteen ninety s before that he was a comedy writer for the Simpsons and one season on Saturday Night Live in every case. There's a writer's room a bunch of people throwing around ideas shooting down. Most of them building up. The good ones coming up with is a job. Really? It is the job Mike all jobs get a little routine, but lately O'Brien's been stretching himself with a travel series called Conan without borders. There was a period of time when President Obama was interested in you know, friendly relations with Cuba. And we saw this opportunity to jump in there. And I don't think a late night host had been to Cuba since Jack Parr and their head writer. Mike Sweeney said, you know, what if we went to Cuba and the? Minute. I when I do hear a good idea. I it's almost like intuitive. Yes, not only let's go. But let's go right now. So we went with very little preparation. I guess that's Jesus on the left is that. Yes, you're right. Hey, you know, this this. Jesus christ. And this is chrome arts. I don't think March is a big relief. And I think what you can see there is me really in the act of discovering things discovering this place. I'd never been to before discovering these people as a comedian. I'm probably funniest when I'm reacting in the moment. And that's where I'm most comfortable. I liked to kind of know not know what's going to go on. And so it's this crazy in Yang of my career. Where I I am very cerebral and started my career as a writer, but I really what I probably love most is being out of control and unprepared. And so when you go to a foreign country are often forced into situations where you can't really know what's going to happen. I think as a comedian and his personality, I have a lot of humility. And it's well-earned some comics they come from a place of high status. So they they're telling us. An lecturing us about what the right way to think is. And I've I think I'm come from the opposite side of things which is like to be in situations where I'm not in the power position. And where the other person has the authority. So if I'm in Cuba, and I'm literally in a in a factory where they roll cigars all day. I will sit with one of the women and she will try and teach me and I'll be incompetent. And she gets the laugh, do, you know, she's in the high status position, and it's not in my bones to wanna go to countries and laugh at them. So Conan O'Brien gets fresh ideas by going to Cuba or Israel or Haiti the musician and writer Rosanne cash, sometimes gets her ideas in museums. Problems can be inspiring. Like if I can't work something out my life. I take it to language to take it to melody and sometimes well, it all can be, you know, going to the men standing in front of that painting of Joan of arc. That's that painting is inspired me. Sometimes they come out of nowhere. You think? And then it turns out that they came from the future. And I call those songs postcards from the future. Can we have an example my song black Cadillac? To view. I wrote the song, and it was about a funeral in death. And the soon as I wrote it I said to myself. Oh, no. It's like I knew I wrote it in March and my stepmother died in may. And then my dad died in September per dead was the country music legend Johnny cash actually before. My dad died that year I wrote a song called September. When it comes wrote the lyrics penned and he died in September. Oh. Lynn. And there have been other times. I'm not saying that unprecedent or that it some kind of new age, you know, peak into the future. But I always thought that creativity happens in a non linear way creativity is a lot of moving parts, you don't necessarily go from eight to be an directly, and you might go to H and Z first and then come back. What I love about watching baseball is that I get a lot of ideas for fiction while doing it. That's the novelist. Jennifer egan. She wanna Pulitzer prize for her book. Visit from the goon squad a sharp spiky novel with multiple narrators, and which has absolutely nothing to do with baseball. But Egan has kids. So she started going to baseball games beaver just at the Beloit snappers last week baseball is I was just reading actually, you know, about how there's this wish to speed up baseball, which I think is I mean in my humble, very uneducated opinion, a terrible idea because the whole point of baseball is that it's slow, and it's great people watching watching baseball all over the country. Just watching the people who go to the games. It's totally fascinating. Just to be clear. Baseball is not Eakins only source of ideas for her writing. I try to imbibe. But material that feels interesting to me, and then I'm sort of trusting to some unconscious part of me to respond to that in a way that will hopefully be fresh. So I guess I'm sort of trusting to both my unconscious in the sense of just leading me through a story leading me through characters first, and then a story, and then my conscious mind to recognize what feels familiar, and what doesn't the way I think about the relationship of my work to that other work is as as a conversation. I'll think okay, this book is in conversation with these other books. Visit from goon squad. Looking back is really in a conversation with certainly in search of loss time also serialized television, like the sopranos which had a big impact on me. And frankly concept albums that. I grew up on Quadrophenia Ziggy stardust, I mean, beautiful stories told in pieces. That sounded very different from each other. So they're all kinds of things that work can be in conversation with and should be really. But ultimately, you know, sheer repetition is not only not desirable. It is absolutely. The thing that I I can't tolerate for myself. People watching it. Minor league baseball games museum visits or putting yourself in strange surroundings, all sorts of ways to generate ideas, or ideas, come to you. Or maybe you like to ask the really big questions like what is the underlying geometry of the universe? That's what got the astrophysicist. Margaret Geller going the same sort of question can also work for poet. I'm Tracy k Smith Smith is the current poet laureate of the United States. Her father was an optical engineer who worked on the Hubble space telescope Smith's best known poetry collection is called life on Mars and usually have a large. I mean, a particular question in mind, maybe it isn't like what is the answer to this thing. But why do we do this to one another? Why is it so hard to really? Love another person, not just strangers. But the people we love why is it so hard to keep loving them. Sometimes why is it so hard to love ourselves. You know, those kinds of questions you can't get an answer to that. But it can certainly set you set you in motion. And then the way I often tend to write this to sort of speculate. Like what if I mean, my book life on Mars is really just a bunch of hypothetical questions. What if the universe is like this? What if it's like that I found that kind of getting those questions back down at earth can be useful in thinking about like the real World, Social or the political world. Those kids who just always want to know how the world worked in the owners manual. What has this whole operation happen, that's soul Pearl? Mutter who also wanted to ask big questions, and I guess the places that looked like they were asking those kinds of questions were physics and philosophy. And so I had to beginning. I always thought that I might study the the to them until I discovered the course that either one of them would take up all your time. And which did he choose? I'm a professor of physics and I study 'cause Molly Pearl mutter is at the university of California Berkeley and the Lawrence Berkeley, national lab in two thousand eleven he won a Nobel prize for helping to discover contra the belief of earlier physicists that the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. One possible explanation for the celebration, Dirk energy, allergic, unknown force that make up seventy percent of the universe. And this is meaningful to know why? So this is one of these. Really weird aspects. I think of basic science that almost every time we've learned something really deep about how the world works. It's ended up not only providing us with the, you know, huge philosophical your satisfaction. But we somehow makes us more capable we. We can do things differently as we learn these odd ways in which the world is actually building instructed. I mean, a good example of this is Stein's through relatively. It was talking about things like, you know, what happens when clocks travel near the speed of light. I mean, we're never going to get one of our clock stars. We know we're not gonna have any of your clocks near the speed of light. And. It seems like these the most abstract concepts that you could have been working with. And yet you every cell phone our pocket that uses GPS all those measurements have been corrected by what we learned mine Stein's three relatively because of those expirations, and you could never have guessed it right now, we cannot think of anything that talk energy is likely to to affect except our poetic vision of the world doesn't I mean for especially for someone who started out thinking about studying philosophy. I'm just curious whether that fact alone that dark energy comprises you say roughly seventy percent of our universe. And we have no idea what it is. Isn't that? Does that present you with a bit of if not an existential dilemma, at least a kind of mind scrambling question that is it? A little unsatisfying to go to bed every night. Not knowing. That is what I mean. It didn't bother me until you told me because I didn't know anything about it. But now, I feel like wait a minute. Seventy percent. We really don't know. And you actually know this stuff. So I'm curious whether it weighs on you in some way. I mean, weirdly enough I think for for me, it's it's one of the real pleasures of life. The idea that there are huge unknowns for us to to explore a lot of what you do. In cosmology, is is mind boggling, and you have to enjoy having your mind, completely buckled. That just the idea of imagining infinite space is already saying that I think we just have a very hard time getting our heads around and and then having an infinite space expand. So that you know, it's not that it's expanding into anything. It's just that. There's more distance between everything in that space, and that's bizarre to and for some of us. That's just scary feeling too. I have my siblings doesn't like to even think about this stuff. Gives her the willies. Whereas for for me, I just find those real pleasure in feeling like us puny humans working with the bit of the census that we have. Living in this happy medium somewhere in between the huge and really really microscopically and subatomic tiny have been able to use our little senses to figure out stuff that's happening on the dick Asli big scale and in these tiny scale and that the two have something to do with each other. I just find that it makes it feel like we're right in the midst in the thick of things that we're that. We're getting to play with the universe. I'm convinced. I love your way of looking at it because you're right. There is a there is a kind of potentially downside of that puniness. But the way you've expressed it. Punching way above our weight by being able to even ponder what's going on so many dimensions beyond. So that's encouraging. I was encouraged by Saul promoters, ability to somehow blend the incomprehensibly vast and the incomprehensively tiny into some sort of par that feels just right? I was also inspired by something else. He talked about his willingness to have his mind boggled. That's his route to coming up with creative ideas as we heard today. There are many routes asking big questions. Sure. But also paying attention to the tiny serendipitous details in your world, keeping an ear out for the dissenting voice. And sometimes being that voice. Figuring out how the limits that are placed on you might actually free up your creative thinking all of these are good ideas for generating ideas. There's no formula. But as we noted earlier the idea is just the beginning. And so coming up next time. On freakonomics radio. It's not as though you have an idea and tomorrow new right of paper and you submit to the journal, and it's it's done. That's the key thing. There's invention just for invention seat. And then there's problem solving where you invent something to solve real problems. And I think a lot of the effort is really drudgery. I'm the kind of inventor that's looking to make whatever amount of time. We have on this world better in so execution has always been part of it. After the idea the execution. It's coming up next time as we continue our how to be creative series talk to you that. Economics radio is produced by Stitcher. In w productions this episode was produced by Matt Frasca with help from Stephanie Tam, and Harry Huggins our staff also includes Alison Craig low, Greg Rippin, ANZAC Pinski. Our theme song is Mr. fortune of the Hitchhiker's. The rest of our music was composed by we scare you can subscribe to for comics radio on apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. The entire archive is available on the Stitcher app or at freakonomics dot com. Where we also published transcript and show notes. If you want the entire archive ad free. Plus, lots of bonus episodes, go to Stitcher premium dot com slash freakonomics. We can also be found on Twitter, Facebook and Lincoln or Email at radio at freakonomics dot com. Radio also plays on many NPR stations. Please check your local station for details. As always, thanks for listening. Stitcher. Andrea Celente here. I'm the host of the longest shortest time. Where a parenting show for everyone. And really, you know, I'm not even a parent yet. And they let me host the thing here at the longest shortest time. Our shows founder Hillary Frank she just came back to explain why she wants to turn your hashtag parenting fails into wins. Like people are almost bragging about this. When they feel like they did something wrong with their kids. But but I feel like why? Brag about that. Like, the winds are actually like more few and far between let's brag about those. Okay. Give me an example. So like to get your kids eat vegetables. Putting peas in a pest dispenser piece in a pet suspense glow. Sticks in the bathtub and family screams here about all of these winds on the longest shortest time. That's upset number one. Eighty four weird parenting wins for the win plus checkout. Hillary Franks new book, weird parenting wins it's available now wherever books are sold.

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