20 Episode results for "Papa Peachy"

Season Finale  Danni Reches  Part 2  Work, Life, and Podcasting as a PhD Researcher

Papa Phd Podcast

36:33 min | 1 year ago

Season Finale Danni Reches Part 2 Work, Life, and Podcasting as a PhD Researcher

"Welcome to part two of the special season finale of Papa Up. In collaboration with the, what are you going to do with that podcast from the nervous center for the study of law under extreme conditions at the University of Haifa. The second part than his talks about her life outside her research. During this conversation, we had a great exchange about working versus volunteering and about the importance of non research activities in terms of networking for your academic and professional life. I in a way learns that academia is about rejection you will have to face rejection, but the thing about its end, what I learned about it is that that's okay. You just need to find a way for yourself to deal with stats do not stay off that personally like you're not getting a scholarship you getting into conference or your article being dismissed doesn't mean that you're failure it doesn't mean anything about you as a person and that's what we're saying beats the is a lifestyle, but it isn't the only thing in your life you need to find these other things that are important to you. Welcome to Papa PhD with David Mendez The podcast where we explore careers and life after Grad school with guests who have walked the road less traveled and have unique stories to tell about how they made their place in the world of constantly evolving rules. Get. Ready to go off the beaten path and hop on an exciting new episode of Papa. PhD. So Welcome to part two of my interview with Danny. Harris and in part one we had just Finished by by talking about what are they today? As Beach, D researcher was in her domain. But in part to I'd really want Danny to focus on. What's your projects have been you know and? One of them we already mentioned and is quite evident but. Other projects you've been developing besides just your PhD research and the idea is also to see if we can take out of that, how that enriched your experience as a PhD student and how listeners out there could maybe take some some example of that too. Also wherever they are You know find a group of like minded people and also enrich their experience and make it a a richer one and A. How to make their PhD a more diverse experience than just doing their research? That's where I wanted to say. I've been to a lot of different things and this is something my supervisor has warned me for so. Now, a bit more cautious at I'm trying to do it a bit less, but I've been slowed down by the whole situation with corona. Anyway. So I just want that to be a little bit of a warning when I start talking about all the fun things that I did because you definitely have to keep in mind how much a person can do without burning out. By As let me start with w about my love for conferences, especially if they're paid for and abroad. in a way, it allowed me to keep traveling, which is so much love. In, my first year Beastie, I managed to spend three weeks in. Australia where never been before somewhere in the mountains beautiful place. at the form. And there are. A huge conference on different topics with two hundred. Students, not only be as there were just a few these most of them were in. From all over the world is shared my flats with someone from Pakistan right as an Israeli. F from the Philippines ends from South Korea and we went to arts events and I a events conferences about politics about health. All kinds of fields bunket, Moon spoke there prisons of Australia's spoke there I was invited as far as Israel delegation do very fancy dinner with people who worked at important banks and things like that. So this was like the big thing that I was very excited about enemies I might give per station about my research about a Mike Proposal and I got some really useful feedback from people from the field. So this was absolutely great. So in a way, it was a lot of fun at for me. It was free, but it was also different work because I got that feedback that I needed. Has to continue to projects, and then I've also spent some time in Brazil. which was the first time that was really great and I gave myself a few extra days in Rio. also about migration on a learned a lot about migration in the Global South 'cause, I focus very much Europe. And then I've done my trips to Germany for research. So this way, I get to travel been to Cairo in January for sight that have seen a beer minutes. For a conference of the. National Organization for Migration that's connected to the UN. And I presented my research on the bow dare. which was pretty cool and there will so policymakers there which is something I'm very much interested in going into after. Doing. The interesting. So also some networking definitely. And just to see how day spoke about similar topics outside of academia. So these are things that I love doing that definitely projects because you have to apply for these things especially if they involve money right and they need to plan all of your trip started dime and only Gives you a flight ticket place stay but doesn't say anything about the preparation of your actual doc or bolster at the conference. And then there you're also working 'cause you're networking is about your topic trying to get out be volts. Things like that. But for me, it was very motivating. It's It's everything I ever wanted to travel for work right. And besides that, I've always works next to my degrees I am getting scholarship, but it's not enough to survive off. So I'm working also for the center where I study. And they're responsible for organs of guest lectures like getting the guest lecturers in also from countries to speak to our students in English we also have trips for students plans, for example, to embassies here in Israel. So they can see what their options are after the grief. And also conferences and Colloquia. So this way I, really got to learn how to organize the these events and be working on something that's not so much research, but still helps with the network. So that's what I did besides that. I'm doing a lot of sports. I go to gym five times a week in the other episode in which you are. I'm the host of what are you going to do that I talk about my passion for big box but that's not the only thing I do I also do some Zimba and Pilatus. And it really helps me to do the physical exercise at the end of a day of studying and sitting behind my computer. I mean I feel much more comfortable with my body and it also makes me relaxed it's an hour outside of my brain. Really. So I, commend. It's been proven that that besides the physical, the physical aspect of saying fit there's a whole mental aspect of physical activity for sure if. Doing sports is considered less. Let's say as a treatment. Will you have your taking enough? You staying healthy. That's good. Very, good and it's very important for all graduate students. Because again, these projects that take a long time, you can kind of get into this tunnel vision. And forget about easy thing like social life staying healthy and it's very very, very important and then the last thing that I actually wanted to mention. is or suppose costs what are you going to do that? which is the show host which I'm not doing alone. I'm doing it together with my colleague who does the editing and also helps very much our social media accounts. You can also find us on facebook twitter instagram. And that allows me to meet all of these people that are doing or half done. Things. In different fields talking to be from international people from stem but also people in migration studies in other fields to talk to them about how they got to where they are now be it's at the entrance to the beach the. In the post office or even accidents just landing their first ship for example. into to hear how they do the opposite. Just the questions that you're asking me also to give some tips and recommendations on how to deal with all these things. I definitely want to ask you after you after a season of of what are you going to do with that? You know a couple of lessons in teams that you see develop but I I want to ask you something which has to do with working for the department that you're at and these kind of Altech alternative academic jobs they're out there and there's something important about them, which is there at an arm's reach their. At your department something that's fairly easy to implement and from what I hear often these organizations they know that you're researchers. So the expectations they have, you know they kind of know that you have to dedicate time to your research. How comfortable would you be recommending the listeners to look for these types of jobs around them and what would you say you're already talked about networking but what would you say other positive aspects would you say working? With. The department have brought you a in your life today. Well. First of all, it's very helpful to just have the extra pocket money, of course. And then and then to have connections of, of course, my supervisor was spotted at center of the supervisor of the data spoke about with spotted at center people who already know you that than think. Okay. So this girl speaks a few languages, European languages. This we need a European study center She will probably be dedicated to it because she will also be working with these supervisors and that's very great. So it's a little bit of an easier way in. and it gives you the extra pocket money Other things I think great about it is like I said, went a lot of conferences and I love doing data but it takes some time out of your job, right like when I was in Australia three weeks when I was in Cairo I was there for four weeks to. So, because the people I worked with are in academia and understood, I'm first of all of easy students and then they're co worker they allow me to do these things and to make work after or from a distance, and that's how it works and I'm not sure if I would have been able to do the same thing if I had a job outside of academia. That's That's basically you said, you said what I was thinking about. So am not going to repeat it, but that's very very important and again because it's it's so easy. It's not something you don't have to okay I'M GONNA Leave University and go to the job that's on the other side of town. You know the the there's many reasons why this is a very, very logical and also interesting thing to look at the jobs around you in the department in the university where you are. Now, the other thing that I wanted to know about that is because you also talked about organizing. Outings for the students CETERA. So there's also an aspect of project management. So where I where I'm going is. It feels like you're developing other skills that you would not be developing if you were just doing your research. Am I am I wrong now you're very right think I want to add to my answer on the other questions. You just ask me which also related to this question is that by working for the place that you're studying at the also learn a lot about the institution you're studying in you learn how it works. You'll learn what is expects of different expected of different people work. They're all the administrative workers. How much workload they actually have why it is that sometimes, they're not able to answer your email immediately So it makes you understand a lot more of the whole system. which could make it a lot more easier for you to go through that system whenever you need something. So that's very helpful while you're doing the beach and I also think if he later won a stay in that and have a position in that institution that you need to know what is like, right? And how it works so. Of course, due to networking. When you do when you organize events that are outside of the university example, these outings than you also connects to people in embassy sent people in different places. So you have those connections. So if later on, you don't to stay in that institution new GONNA, go to a different university or you want to go to into different job altogether you half people here and there who know that you can organize conference. That you have what it takes to talk to different people's racer locations arranges speaker to maybe speak their yourself public speaking. Also, very important thing to learn which you also do at conferences or. are definitely skills that you can actually write only resume next to doing research the well in those two for sure for sure and and. Very, important not to forget to include them. Even you know you're even though it's not a gimmick stuff it it shows your dedication to to projects that you're implement implicated in. It shows that you have the your have enough drive to to do different things plus plus carry on research, and eventually if you're if you leave academia. It'll be really an asset into in terms of of your CV of showing Oh this person. Wants to develop projects and and you know they they. Clearly they They have a lot of energy a lot of drive and look at all the skills that they have developed while at the same time getting a degree by totally agree. And now for a short message, if you're preparing to launch your podcast, you may be asking yourself what hosting platform to use. I launched Papa PhD on Blueberry because I wanted to professional service that interface with my wordpress website that would robustly broadcast Papa PhD to all platforms and that would allow me to grow my podcasts in years to come. If you're starting a serious podcast project, do consider one of the first podcasting hosts out there offering state of the art services including is certified statistics based on years of experience in the podcast space. So go to cope each dot com for slash blueberry that is spelled B. L. U. B. R. Y. or use the Promo Code Papa, peach deep blue in one word on the blueberry website to unlock a one month free trial of the platform and now back to the interview. One thing one thing that's come up in another interview and again, this depends on where you come from your education you know your upbringing and and whether you're a first generation in in graduate school. You know one thing that you may not be conscious of is the importance of establishing a rapport with professors, and in this case, you know because you even getting implicated in in the department, it's even deeper, but it's important. senecas networking and I'm maybe I'm going a bit long here but. Some people can see networking as negative. I've had that but I think he's just natural and like you were saying if you. Organically you create a rapport with your professors or groups around you somehow this will. Grow your network, and it's almost one hundred percent sure that someone in this network will be the person who will look at you say Oh did you look at this opportunity and then it leads to something professionally eventually yet but the way you're doing it and even working for the department is even a step further. So I think it's a great example to follow. So. Listeners out there. Look around see what's being done something that interests you that you might volunteer for even if you can if you have enough funding that that's also another. Avenue I'm not sure though if I would actually agree with that It's a good thing to be out there and to develop different skills that will in the future help you finding other jobs. But being a students or any student even and really being considered often as one one on the bottom of the ladder. It's very easy for people to abuse that's and to expect things from especially these people to do things for free and I always try to say which is difficult struggle with his sometimes do sometimes I think something is very interesting one to do it but then they don't offer anything in return and Oh, I'm. Going to just turn down this amazing opportunity because they're not paying me and the answer should be if you can. If you're that privileged right no, you shouldn't be doing that because then these people are going to keep doing that and then you normalized this whole system, it's important to be appreciated. You got into that beach deed because of your skills and because of what you can do and people should in away reward you for that. I agree and again. Saying this thinking of having an idea in mind and I was doing my pc in a department to do with neuroscience and every year they have this brain awareness week and you know they they prepare students to go to primary schools, high schools to teach kids science and it's volunteering I. It's not. It's not something that that is paid. Right? It depends. On what it is of course exactly. Exactly. This is one week in the year where you do this and you know you need force you need to. If you've got a volunteer, you need to be something that you know that it's going to fulfil you and that you takings though you're not taking money from it, you're taking something important for you for it exactly of course. If. You're doing a job the whole year for free maybe there's there's something wrong there, but let me put it like this for example. So in my situation's different this I, have this job and I am getting paid for this but if there would be a university that would say, okay, you are these students and you're getting a scholarship for doing the HD. So now we're halfway through the semester ends we WANNA do a conference, but we have known to do. So when US organized friends four US go and do it, then I would be like, no this was not part of the contracts. This is very easy to ask someone in this position because they might be afraid to sell you know. It's a lot of. War that also takes away time to do sports and to do your research, and then I would say, no, this is not okay to ask this is not a kind of daring that I could support. With fair and and I agree. And I think the example I gave is quite different from that to racist. It's very, you know it's specific frame of time very short and and. There's anyway there's there's a fun aspect there a few few into science communication. But no I agreed we shouldn't a enable any sort of abuse in that sense I I agree with you. And and Thanksgiving, that example it kind of puts it all into into context. We've talked about what experience you're accruing by by doing this work There's the networking aspect and we talked about the all the physical activities that you do and It's it's quite impressive but now so about the podcast. So you talked about what what are you going to do with that The podcast is. Supported by the Minerva, center can just tell a little bit about what the mission of the center is. Exactly. Yeah. So the Minerva Center for the rule of law under extreme conditions is also research center. That is focused very much on international law. we have students there from all over the world also Israelis local, but we also have people coming in from everywhere last year we had someone from Greece the year before that, we had a fellow from Germany. And every year or try to have every year also a group of students coming in for about a week or so to really do seminar. Where also get to speak about their own research, themselves are denby St students who also get feedback from experts in the field who either also come to see us at the university or do it online. This is really great. This projects of either as well. I joined last year and It's it's so very helpful and it's so much fun to be with peers and talk about their very interesting research which last year was about terrorism and belligerency. Yes so Rosenzweig, right. And just just before you on the Youtube Channel is there were some of these seminars are that's right. We have a close we have a closed session a in which I am joining in which we really talk about ongoing research. So this is that other people can really see or take anything from it's under the safe environments, but then in the afternoons. We have actual lectures and these are records. And you can see these again on the Youtube channel of the Minerva Sensor. So you can just search for maneuver center at the University. FIFA on Youtube and there you can see lectures have been held in the last few years about these topics like terrorism but also topics of students that I'm working with right now, we that bills had as guests on our cost, of course, and one of them is, for example, studying. Urban Planning he's architects and He studies how the city of Haifa where we live in. Has Overcome conflicts. Absolute at forty, eight, four between different groups that live in the city. Will definitely put the link for the Youtube Channel, on the notes of the episode because I think it's GonNa be interesting for people to go to go see and hear about what all all all you've been mentioning talking about. Can actually also see us instead of only hear us. That's it. so. So. That's the mission and that's the model of the me nervous center and Imagine the idea for the podcast stemmed from I. Guess Getting these people and thinking why not bring the experiences and the knowledge of the people to a wider audience is because we've had so many amazing people from all over on. So many different topics. And you know has been in this four while he's himself also writing speech. and I think it was his idea right? This is his baby related. To say you know why don't we just air this see whoever is willing to listen to it and see if we can contribute to this conversation I think he realized back then over thirty what some of the topics would be where I jumped into it and volunteer to be the host. because I, thought it would be very interesting to talk to these other people which also helped me. And I'm very comfortable speaking in English So it was a good match. Even though I still make mistakes they at least I am doing it. I I thought okay. I'm GonNa Talk to these people about the research topic But as I went along the way I started realizing that I heard similar things, I? Mean everyone has their own story and their own very unique journey. But in a way I always hear similar struggles. What was difficult about doing the Beach Beastie? Where did they find supports? How did they get through its or sometimes? Not Get through it, which is also okay. And so along the way of started focusing also in my questions as a host more on those things. And I think we have a wonderful products because of the people that we have interviewed definitely and the the cool thing and the feedback I've been having is a lot from people who are at the beginning of their either the PTR or even their masters and who feel by seeing the examples of other people and seeing that there's not just one way or one tract for. It makes them feel more confident than less anxious about what's coming up in about the after and yet that's what kind of drives me to do this and I think you guys to that's what our title is all about right like I'm a political scientist and I'm studying migration. So what people ask me I is, what are you going to do with that? And this is a question that's very difficult for me to answer because of something that I'm only going to have starting about it two years from now. So you have a little bit of an idea, you have hopes and dreams. But it's it's hard to really see it for what it is. But the good thing is that now by having these conversations, brain even unknowingly is start to accrue to to get some like you're doing for your project, your your brain is starting to To get some data and eventually, you'll see that going to your two, three, four by four I'm sure now you're you're going to have a much better picture and you you won't feel like giving you're doing a leap of faith into the future. You're you're just talking about people about talking with people about their journey. It. You know it shows you avenues hadn't imagined for is also like you said shows that, oh, I'm not the only one struggling basically everyone at a point of their has some sort of struggle and all of those little things are things that kind of boost you to feel less anxious and eventually to kind of start seeing the puzzle. Being built in front of you. Yeah I mean I do hope. So let's see what time brings but I already I already learned so much I'm sure I'm sure in in in you're gonNA much more now. You've learnt so much and that's exactly the segue for for what I wanted to ask which is. Just from season one just for the sake of the listeners out there. Maybe what was the most surprising that you learned that you? saw come back in one two, three interviews what what's kind of not shocked you. Got You thinking Oh. Okay. This is interesting. all of these people or Mentioning the same thing right well, without giving too many spoilers I'm not sure if it's like shocking or super Super knew anything like that to me. It's really like more of a slow eye opener that step by step I, keep saying Oh yeah. That's also a way of looking at it. And sometimes, even complete opposites. Like a once I heard from one of the guests COA he's conferences I hate going, there is so much work and I was like, oh, Gosh, like why we're doing all of these conferences like this is not what I should be doing, and then the next episode I heard from someone Oh and I love going to conferences in go to all of them because I get so much feedback in it so helpful and I, was like, oh so it is okay. That's just one example. And without. Thinking of it in a negative way. I think would I really learns which I didn't realize because I've. Actually submitted my first article to a journal when the growing crisis was happening back in April which is now under review. So yeah, super exciting but I didn't do any of those things before that and I did manage to get into these conferences that also made me feel pretty good about myself or at least about the application that I'd written I didn't experience too much rejection yet. I mean I experienced it in in different ways. Sometimes, I didn't get good feedback. Of course, I have this reviewer of my proposal who didn't have very nice things to say sometimes I was writing something and it just wouldn't work out or had thoughts and. Someone else had written that this was duly wrong zinc. So I had to drop all of this writing that I had already done. You know things like this do happen but the hadn't experienced manager rejections yet. And I think what I got through all of these episodes is everyone was. Almost constantly being rejected and I in a way learns that academia is about rejection. And I'm saying this not only in a negative way. Yes you will have to face rejection. But the positive thing about it's what I learned about it is that that's okay. You just need to find a way for yourself to deal with stats do not stake all that personally like you not getting a scholarship, you not getting into a conference or your article being dismissed. Doesn't mean that your failure it doesn't mean anything about view person right and that's what we're saying bt is a lifestyle, but it isn't the only thing in your life you need to find these other things that important that are important to you. So, if one paper gets rejected. That sides. You need to deal with that are allowed to cry over DADS to complain about it to be sad. That's all right but you also need to. Gear up get back out there on the stands that you are not a failure. And that's something that I've learned I think that's the biggest thing I've learned from us. Then I I almost don't want to say anything else because at the end of the episode I always like to. For a last word of advice and I think it was just so beautifully put what you just said. That unless you would have something else that you wanted to add really I was just going to ask you like if people want to reach out maybe you can share also how to listen to the podcast but if want people want to reach out how find you On Social Media Cetera. Did you want to add something else because this message that you just said is one of the most important ones and I just don't want to spoil it by by wanting to tax something to the. And Yeah no I think that's the most important thing and if you WANNA learn more about how I've come to learn that you're not a failure that rejection is okay. As something we're going to have to deal with than I just WANNA mention go and listen to our both costs doesn't only like yours focuses on the career, but also about the academic journey itself so you can find us first of all on social media. Murray boast about our guests ends about their research See what we actually look like on facebook twitter instagram. And, you can listen to our episodes by finding us on spotify also new tube on the Minerva Channel and on any major both costs platform such as Really. Anything audio have Google stitcher. These are all the big ones that you know. Exactly. yes or find us there. What are you going to do with ads or at sports? Are you going to do what to do without where to spell this? The number two again, I love leave all of those links in the notes page. Then he had a lot of fun hearing about Your Story I. Think we touched upon different things even unexpected things. that I found a very important and and thank you and thank you for sharing some really really important message especially this last one about. Rejection and and about not over identifying with your work with your research. The research is something you do. It's not something you are. You're you are. Much richer being than than just the scientist and that's why it's important to also cultivate these other sides of your life the social physical activity for some people, it's going to be creative aspect. Do that and you'll see it'll being it'll make your whole graduate school experience much more balanced one. So. Again, thank you so much for having come on Papa Peachy and I just want to remind everyone that there's a sister episode that's up today. At the same time on what to do with that. Thank you. Danny you're welcome. Thank you. Thanks for listening to part two of my conversation with Danita his now find what are you going to do with that on your podcast APP and listen to the sister episode. We're Danny interviews me. and. Season one of their podcast where they have great conversations about life as an academic researcher with diverse and interesting guests. This is the last episode of season one of Papa peachy. Thank you for being a fateful listener. If. This is the first episode you've listened to do go and explored the conversations I've had with over fifty guests. In this first season I'm sure you'll find inspiration in many of the stories shared strategies to apply in your academic and professional journey. And if you do like the show, show your favorite episode with a friend. Word of mouth is the best way you can help in deep casters like me. I'm currently interviewing you guests for season two, which will start on September twenty fourth. So mark the date on your calendar is expecting you. Have Great Summer happy listening and happy sharing. Thanks for listening to another episode of the pop up each day podcast. HEAD OVER TO PEACH DOT COM for show notes in for more food for thought about non-academic Post Grad careers. I'll always be happy to share inspiring stories, new ideas in useful resources here on the PODCAST. So make sure you subscribe on Itunes or wherever you get your guests to always keep up with the discussion and to hear from our latest guests.

Danny Australia supervisor Youtube Papa PhD Germany researcher facebook PhD Cairo scientist University of Haifa Papa Peachy Pakistan Israel Philippines Beastie Harris
Juggling Side-Interests, Graduate School, and Your Personal Life During your PhD With Gertrude Nonterah

Papa Phd Podcast

44:44 min | 5 months ago

Juggling Side-Interests, Graduate School, and Your Personal Life During your PhD With Gertrude Nonterah

"My experience going to graduate school was mostly of graduate students being fully funded and working exclusively on their phd. At least until the time came to write their thesis but this is not the reality for everyone and in all domains of research today. I'm bringing you a conversation with gertrude. Entre about her journey so far about her side during graduate school about her life. Balance and time management life. Heck's and about how she juggles her professional personal and family life today. I think the biggest question for a lot of people is i. I'm getting this belgian. Even the undergrad level. I'm getting violated his phd. But really. i don't wanna work in a lab or i don't want to teach. I want something that pays well because notoriously academia those employees well and so funny that that's the path everybody thinks they need to do. It doesn't pay so well. But you have a calling for welcome to papa. Phd with david mendez. The podcast where we explore careers in life after grad school with guests who have walked the road less traveled and have unique stories to tell about how they made their placing world of constantly evolving rules. Get ready to go off the beaten path and hop on for an exciting new episode of papa. phd before going on with the interview. I just wanted to thank you for following the show week after week. If you're new to the show or you looking for an easy way to share it with your friends. I've created episodes starter. Packs you can find them at pop each dot com forward slash start. They are collections of episodes organized by topics that can help you or new listeners. Catch up on all the peach conversations we've had so far again you can go to pop each dot com for slash. Start and start exploring. And i'd love it. If you help someone else get started to and now for this week's interview. Welcome this week's episode of papa peachy this week with me. I have dr gertrude. Mantra and you can call her g. G. is a biomedical scientist. College instructor science communicator and author. She's the host of the create and prosper podcast where she interviews experts and shares tips on how to make money as a writer and author g also started the bold biomed a youtube channel that provide steps on the phd life career and productivity for students in the biomedical sciences. When she's not doing any of these things g enjoys a good spy movie. Welcome to proper. Pg thank you so much. David i really appreciate you having me on. Well i really appreciate you having accepted my invitation. Because we're going to have a conversation about all you've been doing in this domain of helping these as you know pop up the mission of the podcast is to bring. Phd's like early. Hd's almost finishing these people with information insights on how to deal with all of the the unknown that that comes especially by the end of a phd. Just before just after but also tips and tricks to make the most of their life as a as a researcher. So i'm really grateful that you're here today and Well i must say. I'm really really grateful. This beginning of twenty twenty one. Let's let me just stay gratefulness for something a little bit larger than me. Which is the community on lincoln. It's amazing that's where we met this where we cross paths and i'm really grateful for how how much love how much help you can find in a in a community you know. If you're an academic or young ph student you might think oh. This is a business network. It's not for me no absolutely. I think i think you know y- having both of us have been through the process. You don't you outside of the university walls outside of academia. You don't see much you don't see a of a phd's of on other career paths. You don't hear about the enterpreneur paths or you don't care about how the left academia so and and definitely when i was was a phd felt like my only choice was sustained in academia rights. And i'm an you feel a sense when when you realize well maybe my only -demia you begin to feel Sense of helplessness. As you realize that maybe you don't like research and and you don't wanna go on that path so really what. I'm passionate about a passionate about so many things but one of the things. I've absolutely passionate about is leading. Phd students and even letting graduates also realize that there is so much that your does for you and so many doors phd can for you and that you just have to explore that and so i'm excited to talk about that today. Me too. And i'm i'm really want to go at dive into these questions that you ask but let's start by the beginning. How did you. How did you get to where you are today. What was the the journey of g mantra from. I don't know being a bachelor student into going to her. Phd and now getting to where you are. Today writing teaching about writing but also coaching people and helping people go through their graduate school life. Yeah yes agree questions. I want to say thank you for having me again. David privileged to be on the pc podcast And so a little bit about me. I in two thousand twelve thousand nine. I started as a phd students at temple university in philadelphia pennsylvania and when i started my thought process. I had already gotten a bachelor's degree in nursing. And i thought i want to maybe teach or i wasn't really actually now looking back. I don't think i was completely clear. On what my professional path was. But i did know i wanted to get more education. I knew that appear was going to be a good pass. I applied for the program And it was great. I had a great adviser is a good experience but somewhere along the line. I realize that research wasn't the path i wanted. I didn't want to become a principal investigator of a lab. I didn't want to run my own lab because my was in microbiology. Immunology and we have labs and we run experiments but then what actually even got me on the path. I'm on now. Was i think this was in twenty eleven or twenty twelve. I went to the lab. One saturday evening to do an experiment and i was on internet. So won't month things at the time was even though i was earning some money as a phd student from my stipend. It wasn't a whole lot especially because he's married in at the time my husband Had lost his job so there was a little bit of financial stress. Incisive i wanna find something that i can do. Maybe on a weekend maybe one or two times a day on a weekend to make some extra money rights and even able to make some extra money then always looking for that time. Was i just wanna make be an extra hundred dollars and if i can make an extra hundred dollars that would take care of some of the financial stress. Well when i went online what. I found kind of shocked me because i found out that the where people actually Doing all kinds of Work on line and getting paid so it was from there. That i about freelancing may talk about islands about blogging and how people would put affiliate links on the on their websites and make money through affiliate links and you could essentially blog about anything and be able to not just anything but anything that people were interested in creating haunts around and issue did a good job of providing for you value than you could monetize to maybe offering your coaching often. Freelancing services selling digital products like e books to them. So that's how. I really got started. Right how i got interested in this whole world of online. I wasn't really an online person. I think back then. I only had facebook and i've even check it out that much you know. So when i found out. I started a blog on the different experiments. I was doing in in them. Online business world into. I would do something in our right about it and do something about it. And over time i built upon audience doing that. That was my first look. I i no longer run that blow but at the peak of that blog. I think i was getting around. Twenty to thirty thousand visits per month so it it became pretty Big so then somewhere twenty seventeen. After at this point i had finished. My phd moved to san diego california and again i was looking for some of way. 'cause i always been very enterpreneurial. I guess and s like okay. I already started this blog. It's beginning to do well. So what are some other ways. I can Can begin to make some money. And i landed on freelance writing so in twenty seven seventeen. I started a freelance writing. Business that was a lifesaver because twenty eighteen. I post doc at a university. And i was told that funding had run out in so in ninety days. Will all lose our jobs so just imagine not you know you you go to one day bosses like i'm so sorry guys ask but we tell the out of money and in nineteen days. You're going to lose your job so it really showed me that there is no job. That is secure. You may think you have a secure job. But you're only one funding away from being told you know funding just one. You could be just one step away from being told that funding is gone and effort. No longer have a job. But thankfully i had built that freelance writing business. And so once. I drop ended. I was able to slide right into it and bad freelance. Writing business is what. I've currently builds a business brand around so my youtube channel on my face you channel gene. Entre rights is about And i just showed people. Hey the some money to be made in writing. And i know david you mentioned earlier on that you've also been a writer and so the money to be made in writing you just have to keep wing. It's not easy when it's when you're in a freelance position but Got freelance position in Lance situation. I created for myself actually supported my family for from several years. Currently i actually just started a fulltime rule As a writer with with an agency that serves life scientists in health Accompanies which that's my background anyway. So i don't know about you. I am so grateful to be banned. I know that my background is going to be. That's in a nutshell is my journey from accidentally stumbling on online enterpreneurship. Back in twenty well to twenty twenty one. Beat on this podcast with you. Know it's it's it's what amazing but the stories tend to be like that from from what i've seen you can't you can make sense of them looking back but as you couldn't predict what what would what was going to happen at the time right. There's an incident conversation you have in an elevator with someone and then something something materializes from there. Now i'm really really curious about maybe the some details of how you kind of you know you said you. Let's talk about with the freelancing. The refill lansing. I'm sure a lot of people out there. are already blogging those or have a twitter account where the share kind of like you were saying but today people will do it on twitter right a twitter account or instagram account. Where where they'll share stuff about their day to day in the lab or or in research but to to start having freelance jobs as a writer. Can you talk a little bit about how you went about getting that first contract and you know putting yourself out there and getting some visibility. Yeah that's really really good. So when i when i started out i started out as a social media manager when i started feeling so as a social in in my role as a social media my the first job. I guards was from craigslist zo. I'm my husband knew. Because at that time i had been blogging about a year and i told him i said hey. I'm going to start this freelance writing business. So if you you know as 'cause we had a young son we we still have a young child but he was maybe two years old and so my my husband was a stay at home dad and helping to take care of him so i said hey whilst you know maybe my son is taking a nap on sunday. Taking a nap. Could you like checkout thinks for me. I mean we even really say that but apparently he was looking for different jobs for freelance writing for me so he went on craigslist and saw that somebody had posted about meeting a writer and emailed. It's me walls our so at work and clue and so as this is great. So i applied for that you know Freelance writing position but never garnett it. But that same day somebody else had posted about needing a social media manager and because i had been writing my blog and i needed to build on audience with my blog i had also been building concurrently as social media following so i knew how to build a social media following so i reached out to the president said. Hey i'd i'd be happy to handle your social media for you Here is my blog. He my twitter his my facebook. This is what i've done. If you like what you see let me know. And that same evening they got in touch with me and said i love your blog. I love your show. I love your facebook. Come in do social media for me. So that was my first foray into interfere lansing and this individual ended up so i began to write social media content but more importantly should be gone to refer me to other clients who need a blog post in search. So that's really. How i got started was this on craigslist to or is this on other. Another from another was on craigslist. Like my husband had sent me that link on craig's list so another one. I saw another one. I see no one. He sends me never responded back to well. That's how things work cool so you can. You can just kind of start by offering someone use your services but not not to accompany maybe to someone who has a small small business help with the skill that you have absolutely absolutely and i think a small business can be a good place to stop because most of the time the big businesses that you think about like you know. Million billion dollar companies wanna work with an agency for Not necessarily a freelance at an independent freelancer. I'm and that's an important thing to know. If you wanna work with the bigger companies. You kind of have to know somebody to do that right. And i would learn that later so i found that i somebody that had no connections at any big company. It was better for me to target local companies and small businesses. That needed my services. But maybe they didn't have ten thousand dollars a month to pay an agency but they would have five hundred dollars a month to pay a freelance right and five hundred dollars. A month would make a lot of difference for a lot of people. I believe you know so. So that's how i got started. Yes so i think targeting. Small businesses is good. Yeah perfect now. I mentioned also you can be complicated. But there's labs that need the website or the nida twitter someone to manage a twitter account. Maybe around you in your institution where you're doing research maybe you can But you can do something like that but it will probably be for free anyway. I'm thinking of ways. People can start. Try their hand at this and you know something. I agree with you on that point. Because i i totally agree with you. David the reason why i agree with you is because when you're starting out and you don't have any experience it's good to start out with some like i said earlier i with my blog and with my twitter that was completely free but if you can you can get an actually have recommended this to people. I said if you can get like you're saying in a lab at alive in your institution maybe your own lab you know and say hey you know i think we would benefit by having a twitter and getting people to know a little bit more about our research. I know some are very protective of their ideas so it may be funny but you may get a pi as okay. Go ahead do that. And then you begin to start conversations and that can grow up really grow really quickly so even when you have those opportunities right. I think you should take advantage of them because later on. You can use it as proof that you've done the week before. Yeah and if of course like you like what you just said eventually people will start asking you okay. Can i have a sample of what you've written. Can i want to see your portfolio right. So that's when it's going to count one year two years later you're going to. You're going to have this this a treasurer of stuff that you can show right away now. I have a question. I think you. I think i know what you're going to say. But because of what you said you said you were very enterpreneurial. But time management when we're doing a phd in microbiology genetics. So if we want to do something on the side we need to be very good with our time rights. How did you manage that. Plus a child plus you know how did you. What advice do you have for a for. Let's say moms. That are doing their peach the but they also want to start some kind of enterpreneurial endeavor. Yes goodness you be no such a great question okay. So so so. I think the question asking is managing your time when you're so busy rights and i think that that's a great question. I think you know in the beginning. Let me tell you at the time. I started this. Yes i had a two three year olds and one of the things. That i did is really. I waited for him to go to sleep and then when he went to sleep. I would take the hours between nine pm. Eleven pm to build my business so and then there were days away. I woke up super early. So i'd be up by four five pm and i work to maybe six or seven and then i would work and i record my business. That's how i wrote most of my blog posts. That's how i start when i started out. Freelancing that's how. I manage my clients. I always did things on the fringes of time when my son was asleep. So you know and because also had a fulltime job and you know that's one of the things you don't wanna be doing is cheating your boss by your your own business on on time. It's not a good thing So i wouldn't. I wouldn't do that. But i find that the so much you can do in just two hours a day. People underestimate how much you can do. And i think he's because we we lived in netflix's flicks culture where we can sit down and binge-watch show for five hours and it can feel like time never passed but the truth is that if you will Even focus on one thing for for like forty five minutes an hour two hours. You'll be amazed at what you can do so outside to those moms out there that you know you know you're busy you have a full-time job you have. You know your family and you have other things to because family and work is usually not the only two facets of life. You have so much more you know. I would say like find two hours in your day or if all you have is an our final hour of your date and during that time focus. I always used to talk people that every business that you can think about the coffee shop in your local in your local. Your local town has working hours right. Usually have working hours poses so set working hours for yourself it's hard. i'm not the most. I don't think i'm the most disciplined person. But i learned to work for one hour sprints and to focus on my work so i shut off all social media. I'm not checking youtube or anything. I just focus on my work. Because i knew what i wanted so knowing what you want and setting aside time to do it is so critical question of focus and of tuning out although the noise in today's something that's really really timely and really hard to do today before we go back into that with my conversation with gene entre. I just wanted to ask you a question. Do you know of or do you work for an organization that might be a great sponsor for the show. If you do. I'd love to hear about it. It could be an organization. You'd like to see promoted on the show or it could be a service you feel could be helpful to all the listeners out there. Whatever it is you can write to david at pope. Hd dot com and. I'll be happy to talk about it with you. And also i'll give you a shout out on the show and now let's go back to my conversation with g. mantra. I think you just pointed something very important. Which is i that there. There's these times where if you have kids when they're asleep then you can have these moments of peace and clarity for me. I think the ones that's always surprised me. The most are the morning hours. If i'm able to wake up at five or around five before the kids wake up. It's amazing what you can get done in helmet. I know how clear you can think at that time but some people are more night owl. So maybe it's going to be that nine hundred eleven like you said that's gonna be key and i'm telling i'm saying this and i have a hard time with it and now having a podcast dino posting on tv now being managing social media shutting down social media can be a big challenge. I agree it is one of the things one of the things that i did too to help me. I remember when i had been doing social media manager for about a year. And then i was beginning to get questions on. How do i become a social media manager. One of the things i did was. I wrote a book a mini book and sold it on my website. And that's how one of the ways i said. I'm making money for my blog. now. I write the book. That book was a show book. Was maybe eight thousand words. But then what i did was i had this chrome. Google chrome extension called forest and with forest. When you start using forest you can set a timer for like forty five minutes and you can set it so it blocks you access to social media. So that's exactly what i did. So every time. I would get distracted and tried to go on facebook it would. It would put up a black screen and say you're still working. I love that must exist. Still right it does should look for it. It's pretty good but the the cool thing is an. Tell me if this is what happened with. You is after a certain time. Your body your mind. You're you know you're you the the whole you gets used to this routine and you ended up not needing forest anymore as an point. Yeah i think so. I think so i still use it for i. Don't use it as much anymore. But i still use especially on those days where i'm like. I need to focus on this. I can get things done. I also another thing another productivity tool they use. My husband does not get this and many people don't is i will listen to our instrumental music in my ears. Because when i do that the is this channel on youtube called calmed by nature. You should look at anybody. Should look it up. who's listening. But essentially he has all these sounds so sometimes it's like the sound of the wind chime or it's like the sounds of a coffee shop and so what i do is i take. Have these big headphones. I'll put it over my head. And so essentially i have blocked out. Everything around me except for the coffee shop sounds and then now i can focus on. What am i doing is this is i do this decision. When i'm writing. I can just focus on that and not worry about anything that is going on around me and usually when i may. I may be able to do that for an hour usually by the end. I'm so shocked at what i'm able to do. So so whatever works for you whether it's you know the chrome extension or whether it's blocking your ears or whether it's just you don't listen to anything you put earbuds in your ese. You don't hear anything and you turn off your phone you so you're not tempted to go to your phone. All that's helpful another thing too. There's a book called automic habits by james clear. Am i doing what you david. But it's a real good joke. It's a good book about building good habits and one of the things that the author the author james clear writes about is the fact that sometimes you need to remove yourself from the place where your most tempted to give into a distraction. Right so for instance. If you know that you would really want to write are really want to work on something of laying on your bed and turning on your laptop get off from your bed. Go and sit at a desk and said everything up like it's a professional thing that you're doing right because it is professional and work on it like it serious like that instant of china kind of relaxing do it and that also is helpful okay to have like work us around you. Versus relax cues yes. That's super interesting. L. differently You know i'll remember to. Maybe insert that in the show notes. I think it's a. It's a good recommendation. Now now Maybe we can go back a little bit to your european deep post doc years and And because i know that now especially on youtube channel you provide tips to pitch these. And i imagine those tips are based on your on your experience. What you lived on on what worked for you and a for people who are still doing or maybe even considering each the i'd like to kind of have a little snapshot of maybe questions that you've had that that come again and again. What are what are things that are like generally issues for people or questions or doubts that come back to you On on this on this channel of communication you have with the peachy community with a phd community rights. Okay so with a phd community. I think i've gotten more because that's a much newer Brian i'm building. Just i just started that maybe six months ago so so it's so new but one of the questions but this is great because i always i'm thinking about and and looking at questions roy's early this morning. They youtube the bull by a channel I saw a question somebody had posted in. The question was it was a video had done on the different career paths. You can pursue as a biology major and the person had asked me about the biopharmaceutical industry. And how you know all the different paths at. Potentially there right so now. This is something that i have to research. And maybe talk to some people. Because even though i know about the biopharmaceutical industry i don't know everything about it so i'll go find out about it rights and so i think the biggest question for a lot of people as i'm getting this biodegr- even the undergrad. I'm getting this biology degree. I'm getting this. But really i don't want to work in the lab or i don't want to teach i want something that pays well because notoriously academia doesn't pay well and so funny that that's the path that things they need to pursue yet. It doesn't pay so well but you know if you have a calling for it and that's fine. That's i think that's the case for a lot of the people is the fulfilment from teaching from from bringing up of scientists. I think it kind of it. Kind of ways on the other side of the scale versus the salary per se. But but. But i i agree with you. And that's why i i. I'm here behind this mic. On papa peachy is i also saw the same. Which was people in the i. I also come from the bio the biological sciences people wondering. What's going to happen next. And am i going to have to just go You know serve at a cafe is is that what's waiting for me. If i don't get to the professor tenure tenure track et cetera cetera. And you and. I both know that that's not true. That like it was mentioning. I was mentioning link in just at the top of the episode. And just there. There's so many phd's in so many different positions right. It's quite amazing. And so i think you're right. That's the one of the main pain points. Maybe maybe i can say like that. That the the community has. But then you know we're talking about you know biological sciences. There's history history. These linguistics literature and the percentage of people in those different domains that can stay in academia very. But there's always a portion at least fifty percent of them that ended up going to someone else. I always refer to by i. Guess of the season kris humphry who has a phd in medieval studies and is now project officer in a bank right. No and that's that's excellent and you see. I think. I think one day my husband was telling me this story about how he met his religion professor and this this this man had a phd and a few years later he saw him As a janitor a net in place and he and he was confused that phrase so he called his name and he turned and he was like. Oh hey and he mentioned my husband's name. And i remember my husband's said my heart broke. You know an even as my husband was telling me that story. My heart broke. Because it's like. This is a highly qualified person who needs to be doing something that is that his qualifications are worth. But you know he couldn't find a position and so i'm not saying being janitor is not a good job at it. You know. it's it's good work. It's honest work rates. But i at that point i felt while i feel like he deserved more right for what he had done. And so and so. That's where my passion lies is is impeached. He's realizing that you're highly qualified. And you can do this so much you can do. And you don't have to see the world so narrowly. So like in the case of chris who are also connected to on lincoln you know he was able to turn a phd medieval studies into a position at a bank and so people don't realize all the skills that we we've phd's learn whether you're phd is in biomedical sciences. Chemistry or history. Or whatever it is. We come with so many skills. I always say. Phd's bosses of learning we learn anything and everything right like if we can't we that's what hope is to figure things out so even having that problem solving mindset is a big skill that so many companies in business so many companies in finance companies in the pharmaceutical industry chemical industry do need that so badly and you come as as as you come with those skills right. There also may be different software programs that you've land within your program even how to look up. Peer reviewed journals. That's a skill. Not everybody has that and so highlighting those come you call them soft skills. I guess those skills that are someone on also soft because knowing how to use some kind of software nor soft is hard skill but but but those those unique skills we a lot of us learned in our journey as pg students and so being able to highlight that on your on your resume on your cv is so important into to opening doors for you outside of the ivory tower if you wanna stay in the ivory tower. That's fine but if you are finding yourself in place where you want to explore outside of it there's so much and by highlighting your skills And even by exploring lake freelance paths. Like both david. I have could be a way for you to even get your foot in the so you know there's so much out there and i hope more walmart people will explore that. I agree with you. The the freelance breath is one. And because what happens if you go. Let's to to industry very often. They'll ask for so many years of experience and you just you know you can make Make the point that well during my years of my phd can has experienced but often the people hiring. They won't really go for that right away. So i would say you know there's two things and tell me if if let's discuss about this. I always think coming out of reach the going into domain. That's more commercial more in this industrial need to have some humility and because the for them they know what it is kind of the people they probably don't know all your transferable skills or they're not conscious of them but they know what they want. They know who they want. And what skills they want to pursue the person to have so i'd say go in with humility. Go in ready to work at have first position. That's maybe not at the level that you aspire and then prove prove yourself once you're inside the organization and then you you quickly you know you quickly go up the chain or the ladder. Let's say do what's your what's your idea on. Yeah no i agree with you. I agree with you. You know. I've seen a lot of postal lincoln recently with people saying That pg's experienced you. Which is chew because most of us are are working. Eight to twelve hours every single day. Right so i agree with that but like you you rightly said not many. Hr people or people within companies have caught up to that idea just yet and so while that is still good and you can demonstrate your transferable skills. I think exactly david if you if you do get an role that is a role that you want to get into or even. I heard this incredible story. Let me just take a small. It's not a side journey is the same. It's on the same line. But i was listening. I mean clubhouse which is a new social media audio apple. I don't do the often. But i was in this really great room where the guy was had a bachelor's degree and was working at arm marketing at procter and gamble now to get into a role in marketing at procter and gamble. You need to have a peach okay. Most of the people who have caused a requirement. It's it's it's like it's not a requirement it's the way they the whole system has been built that a lot of the marketing people at proctor and gamble half phd's or at least an unusually the all. They went to an ivy league school to get that position. Because it's proctor and gamble right while this guy doesn't have doesn't yeah doesn't even have a a phd masters. Did mark go to an ivy league school and was and so we were asking him. So how did you get in. And he said well. I got in as an insane and i let everything i could and improve the bosses and stayed there and did all the things i needed to do. And now i'm in this rule that most of the time would either go to somebody who went on ivy league school or has a beach d. So what's my point. There my point that is that what you need is a foot in the door right and once you have a foot in the door you can do. You can fight like with everything within your to rise and to get those roles that you finally and and for a phd. That path may even be shorter than somebody with a bachelor's so somebody i think he had been in. The industry may be eight ten years. I think before he got into that role but for you with a phd. It may take three years of impressing people of showing people that okay. Your work is good and you are with your salt to get into those roles. Where you're you you Way you feel like you want to get rights. Everybody has different goals wakefield once so i agree with you that there is some humility. That please into that that okay. I'm going to get my foot in the door. Get into the company. If it's a dream company for instance. And once i'm i'm going to learn everything i can. And this is where you know talking. And this is what informational interviews within your company is important this is where networking within your company. And outside of your company is important. That's why i love lincoln. So much is where you know. Learn you know. Personal improvement in your craft is important That if you can improve at least one percents every day within infamy years you'll be an expert in your field so i completely agree that there is some kind of humility there that if you get into a room that is usually not academic track then. Really see your so. This is an opportunity to get my foot in the door. And then do all the things networking in the relationship noting and the personal development to get where you want to gets. I i totally agree with that. And i love the to mention lincoln. Because i was i was going to go there. I was gonna talk about networking and how important it is to start having conversations with these people who work in these companies that interests you because even then you can open door. The you know you can access the hidden job market through their riots in a different way g. We're getting to the end of the interview. I think we could talk for another hour but it can. You can say for another time. How can people find you. A how can people reach out to you. We've mentioned lincoln. So i'm going to share that link the link for your linked profile in the notes page. But you know if people have questions for you after listening to the episode. They want to learn a little bit more about how how to get into writing. How did you start your blog etc. How can they reach out to you. Yes thank you so much this. So if people wanted to land more about my writing janey and or how they can get started in writing a freelance writing. You can go to jean entre rights. Which is my channel or gene. Entre dot com are right. That's where you'll find my podcast as well as Links to some blow was a right but My youtube channel link is also on this or gene on trentham. Calm you can find me day I also have a newsletter sue gene-altered dot com slash news. Let's you can go there and enjoy my newsletter. I send out weekly emails on content creation writing and creativity for those. Phd's that are looking for some motivation. to To think outside of the academic box and nothing wrong with academic books I'm just you know sharon kwan. Sense that the the is life outside of academia so if you would like to explore some of those ideas. I have another youtube channel. The bowed biomed. And so you can find me at the biomed. And and now. I have the bull by a meadow combat. It's on a website yet but the booth biomed. You'll me there and you can interact with me then. Yeah i'm an you know before we go. I wanted to just emphasize the power of of you know we were talking about this briefly. And i feel like this could be a whole other episode or the power of networking as as as a pg student and also as a graduate That i it really is important. So come find me. All linked in as well And and you know these days. I'm super busy. But you know we can set up like a twenty minute. Zoom co for instance and. We can chat. And i think that's actually very important because like like david say there's a hidden job markets. There's an estimated about seventy percent of jobs are in the hidden job market. That means that they actually go to people's referrals rather than getting posted publicly. So you know you don't want to just rely on publicly posted jobs. You can also access jobs that i never ever posted okay. By knowing i'm people in by having relations you don't have to be everybody's best friend but knowing the people Is really helpful. So that's what. I wanted to end on that note. It's perfect g. Thank you so much for your time. I know you busy. I really appreciated this this time talking with you. I think there's a lot of value in our conversation for listeners out there thank you so much for having accepted and and all the best for your projects. Thank you so much well. And that's it for this week's episode of public beach. I hope you enjoyed it. And i wish you a great week. Thanks for listening to another episode of the pop up each podcast head over to pop up each dot com for show notes in for more food for thought about non-academic post grad careers. I'll always be happy to share inspiring stories new ideas in useful resources. Here on the podcast. So make sure you subscribe on itunes or wherever you get your podcasts to always keep up with the discussion and to hear from latest guests.

twitter youtube david mendez dr gertrude facebook David david lincoln gertrude gene entre temple university ivy league school Heck james clear garnett Lance papa peachy philadelphia
David Freiheit  Merging Law, Popularization, and Content Creation

Papa Phd Podcast

1:03:38 hr | 2 years ago

David Freiheit Merging Law, Popularization, and Content Creation

"Life is not in black and white your life who you are is a patchwork stemming from Europe bringing your experiences who you've met the choices you've made what you studied is also a piece of this patchwork but it's not the whole thing and the more you go into your adult life the more you end up painting that mosaic to your image that as the rest of my life about me Montreal youngest of five kids born and raised lived in Paris for one year when I studied philosophy also forgot is make friends with the professors stay tuned as we discussed this and much more on a new episode of Papa Peachy in your areas of interest you can download it by visiting Papa PhD Dot Com and following the instructions in the website footer welcome to the show just to tell about how they made their place in the world of constantly evolving rules get ready to go off the beaten path things is not economically sustainable on its own but I did make a decision about three years ago to phase out litigation entirely for my practice because I could cool interview so welcome to the show David thank you very much and I've done a few podcast but I've never done a podcast Viva voce live with the interviewer in person I've done them on so Montreal litigator turned youtuber. I'm still not a litigator but I'm still a lawyer I do some legal work just to actually make ends meet because we'll get into this but the youtube side his love of photography and film here's one of the pearls of wisdom he shared doing our conversation be diligent make friends with the students and something welcome to Papa PhD with David Mendez The podcast where we explore careers in life after Grad school with guests who have walked the road less traveled and have unique story before we dive into today's episode. I just WanNa let you know that I've prepared for you a resource sheet to help you take a snapshot of your current situation and start defining your profile for the job market my father is a lawyer my sister-in-law's alert two of my sister-in-law's lawyers my brother-in-law's parents are lawyers in Florida we have a family of lawyers like a family tradition so bun lived in Quebec City for three to four years while I studied law but youngest of five kids in the family for the five kids are lawyers studies about what his path was he has a very very interesting given that he did recently and it's I think it's going to be longer do it I couldn't stand doing it after WHO's ten plus years of litigation where I think I had gotten the feel for it and what it was in the fact that I didn't want to do that it wasn't a it started with my father but it was never a sort of a an imposed tradition it just became the way we all went I think probably because of the nature of our upbringing have having a lawyer fool say a philosopher philosophical father critical thinker type thing everybody says okay when you when you when you study philosophy when you think critically when you think analytically oh I introduced you very very shortly but yeah I'd like you to talk a little bit about yourself and the listeners know who you are where you come from and what you did today there's a few things that are going to be good for professions in laws right up right up on the list there so we were studied elementary school high school and Huffman for an exciting new episode of the PD envisioned that being a life career so like my siblings went and studied philosophy I went to McGill to study philosophy I like the moral philosophy but you can't make a life with creative arts degree in certainly not despite being on the Dean's list of Dawson for creative arts it's not it's not itself a career and I had not line so this is a new a new sort of experience for podcast me do it's my first live interview on actually posted on twitter today because it's pretty exciting for very cool for anybody who knows what that is and I did creative arts and I've always been into creative arts which is what I've sort of come back to full circle and I've always been into video making like when we were kids we would make videos the philosophy of law I like I like the conceptual side of philosophy and from there obviously you don't become a philosopher unless you want to go into a PhD and become a professor bryce stopping what trouble a troublemaker sorta started started actually succeeding in studies and settling down in terms of behavior. Say Jeff was Dawson work you can go into politics you can go you know whatever so that was the foundation for my future career but I ended up going into law started working place called Borden Ladner Javale which at the time was Canada's largest law firm in terms of numbers of lawyers okay but it's always been top ten in terms of reputation big firms VHS in the shoulder held camcorders creative videos in sage I did a film courses and made short films so I've always loved film so today I'm interviewing Viva Fried David fight he's known as we are on a new one on the Internet and we're going to talk about and the lifestyle itself was sort of difficulty sustainable when we had a kid before kids you know I can work seven days a week ten hours five years and it was an interesting experience but I was never it always left something wanting get too much into the high school but I did do a video on my high school because I did bounce around from three high schools in five years well my major sort of life transition into sage national firms and I worked there as a student stagger which is an intern and young lawyer of jobs over the so the natural course then was to go get a law degree and getting a law degree not necessarily just to be compelled to become a lawyer but even if you don't have a practice law having a law degree is like the greatest among the doc eight nine ten hours a day at one point over an extended period of time I was leaving the house when my kid was asleep coming back when she was asleep and I was miserable you just sort of foundations of education that you can have because you don't need to become a lawyer you can do anything you can do business and be very successful if you know what to think within the legal get rejected off the waiting list legal started coming in faster than I could handle it and so I started working but I was working out of out of the basement I was not seeing her during her waking life and there was no end to this horizon so that at at one point I was not happy I was visibly not happy my wife said has basements I can't have people delivering documents here this was actually within two weeks find an office just to just to have official address cause also nobody really takes it seriously when I know why they rejected me because I don't think they thought that I was actually going to commit to the full time program because I was a lawyer with a kid and it wasn't going to be sustainable for me before I can even look that was coming straight to not everyone's like hey I heard you left now I can probably afford you can you help me with this literally from one day to the next it was like a sizable law firm knew more about procedure back court documents backings all these things to some extent than I did she was the hide it up my stuff over the next two weeks to a month thinking that I was going to go into commercial photography 'cause I have always been into photography I've always had are at the big law firm because overhead is a totally different factor in terms of establishing hourly rates go to my own I have no overhead I have no expenses I have no secretary didn't even have I it doesn't seem like it's for me I'm going to go and apply for commercial photography back Dawson like sort of full circle before I could get rejected because I was put on the waiting list this couple blocks away on Saint Catherine tiny office seven hundred dollars a month and was able to work professionally meet clients and do all the thing over the summer I had go to the basement we not even moved out on her own yet we were living with my parents in the basement and I was working out of their basement and I said I can't do this so I went and got an office so this courthouse and do this which we did so I started on my own in two thousand ten and we did this until we're still doing it all on a lesser degree but until two thousand you are operating illegal practice of a residential addresses sort of has a connotation to it and also nobody likes getting serve documents for their clients at their home so I got an office daphne she knows who she is if she's listening to this best paralegal best person that I had ever met in building my practice on my own because she had been a paralegal at another this my father was leaving psych Elliott because of their partnership rules he wanted to continue practicing so we said let's all get together and go to old Montreal and get a nice office by the I always felt that there has to be more to the practice than this not out of anything of law firm in particular it's the same at all big law firms just has to be more to life more to the law than this eighteen seventeen when I made my decision to wind up litigation side and move on to something that I think would make me happier in retrospect if I'm looking at you something has to change or something Never GonNa Change in this I remember the Friday afternoon mid April I just said that's it I went to my boss and I said I can't do this anymore you know it was it was meant to be that we met at that time build up the solo practice into me her another lawyer at one point and then we got to the point where needed to get bigger itself an amazing and intense process and at the time and shortly after I told myself if I knew what was going to be involved in everything under control went to California for two and a half week road trip which was the longest vacation I had taken in my life at that time and that's what I sort of had started doing the daily flogging video again yeah except you don't have a ten pound VHS can't hold on your shoulder give a two and a half hour camera captures images better than anything you've ever imagined finding it down I'm not sure that I would have started up but it was just because it's a year of work we're not only are you not really building in the files because you can't bill the client to wind up their file and find today would make much of a difference we had our first kid I took two months off for parental and then when I went back to work you know going back to work five six seven days a week sees I learnt about Youtube Monetization subscribers but I always say if I knew then what I knew now things would probably be very different because the learning curve so you know I was talking to you before digital photography I said I would never make the transition to digital but I gotTa my dad gave me his Nikon d one of the time and then I got into it so I said in your childhood so I started making these videos and then I started licensing these videos after the first video that I ever had gone viral viral and I learned about video licensing agents okay you started on the road trip I started on the road trip but I had been doing you too for a while before that so and the way those to call the professions for lack of a better word for you a computer at that time so if he was an awareness like what do I need to charge in order to even make a living and the work kept on coming in so then I'd one point two said I can't work my life at the end of it and so then what happens I say we have to wind up litigation side it takes a full year to wind up the files find lawyers to substitute a settle the files needs to be settled institute we were paying the lawyers that we had I was paying we have a couple of years working for us who were actually helping me organize the files so it was not only not revenue revenue generating curve to get up to speed on the file so you have to keep some files that you can't responsibly get out of so we did that and then wound up the last one oh carrying up a tree minute and a half video posted I think I shot it on November November two thousand fourteen Sunday afternoon set and not just as a database for storing videos so the first video of you had never seen it but I think everyone in Montreal probably has seen it at this point was a squirrel stealing it got licensed to National Geographic Mother Jones news networks across the world and I was out of the office the Saturday as I have a file can you help me I said sure I mean Jesus did they were billing me out at doesn't really matter but they were building out at they claim a certain portion of your ad sense revenue from the views on youtube but you are now tapping into a sort of network of third parties that you would never have access to in terms of licensing the video and I I sort of that's where I started learning about video licensing and it was incredible because through this video licensing agency was at first nonexistent because I was not paying attention to it and then it was a sharp learning curve when I realized what I had to do to turn a channel into a channel as an the holy cows this was kind of a cool thing the way this turned out I uploaded to youtube and five days later it has five million views at the time this is two thousand fourteen rides I like and respect everybody here and they liked and respected me this I can't do this for another five years so I left agencies saying it we saw video we'd like to license it you'd retain the intellectual property copyright but we would have non exclusive licensing rights I had no idea what they were I assume they were it's not really a bit more of a passion than a profession since two thousand fourteen I had been posting videos on Youtube when I got a Gopro and discovered it's fun to me can I had I had more work than I needed and I had more work than I know what to do with and so I started doing that and then at one point I had so much work I said I need a paralegal and I found a paralegal it was an expense and it was it was it was it was fun it was stressful but boom wound up close up the last litigation file I had to keep a few because for anybody who doesn't Know Litigation L. Spam but I ended up getting in touch with one of them we discussed exactly what happens and I sort of understood then okay they go fishing around with third parties to license it get relatively consistent engagements compared to the other ones which we will either be three hundred views or fifty thousand depending off they went viral hit and miss hit and miss that was real that was viral in the viral sense of youtube two or three days later I started getting these what appear to be spam emails from VI- video licensing like a multi year process and some files where we have a trial waiting you can't just get out of the fancy sorry client go find another lawyer who's going to incur all the expenses of a learning stuff and as the progression would occur I noticed that every time I put out a video based on law it didn't get a million views but it got thousands and tens of thousands billion views on youtube is something of an anomaly like it's I like to pretend that I sort of had the ideas but I think the world was different back then youtube is different back then certainly they send you an email and say we'd like to use your video and but when you're when you're a solo person you have no idea what you're doing how to deal with the head negotiate these deals when you have an agency say it's being licensed and Video Licensing Agency licenses out and it was amazing I remember the day I got the check for the absense revenue was like it was two thousand bucks for the is bringing things that you think are way over your head down to their level in explaining nitty gritty of like interrogation and I think that's that's the them I have no say in this so you wash your hands of negotiating you wash your hands of being the greedy person asking for money for your for your property I exhausted the capacity for the drone but then I realized that it doesn't mean I would make a cooking video and one where I cooked an ostrich egg six million views the other one where we hard boiled so help people understand who are who don't understand and I discovered this market so to speak of people who are looking to understand what's going on in the world in terms that they can under viral videos and then over time you know you realize you can't make a business off hitting the lottery and you can't build a channel hitting the lottery even though you have a bunch of people who come for random I was operating in the realm of doing things with drones go pros it was it was a long time for that and there were not many videos out there so the the market had been non on like that but at the very least everything they're getting from the media whatever side it's on already has spin it already has interpretation it there may be I don't want irrelevant or superfluous details they are getting that allow whoever to come to whatever conclusion they want but they know they're not getting an explanation they're getting a summary they're being told ostrich egg God close to a million views but the ones where I cooked squid got a thousand views if we're lucky and I couldn't turn my challenge cooking channel it was others got licensed by tech sites all sorts of things and that's when I sort of just began exploring experiencing youtube for what its potential was for that's that's what gets people coming back because this guy is teaching me stuff that society tells me I shouldn't be understanding that's why I think it's really really cool about that it's news mainstream media there's commentary there's no shortage of commentary but even with the commentary stuff on either side some better than others but think as opposed to sniff impartial there's always an agenda there's an agenda there's an agenda if it's you know you can't see that I'm doing the quotes but there's an agenda misrepresentations by omission but they're certainly you can't get all of the information in and so the media with whatever agenda they have depending on whatever whatever site or or paper quickly you know it does involve your commentary based on things and facts that are going to support that position and sort of setting aside the things that are not and I tried end and that's the niche that I sort of now started focusing on and we'll get back to my questions but I feel that one of the things with those videos is people are thankful that someone in Spanish news called and said you're on the front page of what is the equivalent of CNN in Spain it's crazy it was it was it was a totally new experience but and then I got the these lobbies videos are boring but they sort of got an interesting because it's stuff that I look into anyhow there's no point making video on it because I'm going to read myself why that's what I like about it also because first of all I think everyone has got the Internet has allowed everybody to realize not that they're getting lied to by the media appreciate at the time that there are certain topics that the platform doesn't necessarily even want people talking about that is not necessarily a deterrence doc for the for the for the views on youtube is a cows I went out and bought a drone and then with that drone I kept on making content which itself you know some videos went viral the got hundreds of thousands of us into your tastes this week you'll be hearing from David Frei Height about getting a law degree and becoming an litigator and about how he's been able to marry his knowledge of law I mean it's sort of the idea that I even have a channel that has multi that at the time had no specific brand or no specific direction that had multiple videos that over that I noticed that went viral was me explaining and breaking down what was going on in that Alex Jones deposition and that sort of the one that got me into trouble with Youtube because I did is what I would have done this is what I would have not done as the attorney this is a good question should look like this is what a bad question allows or bad in an improper question or a for me but I just found that I found that so interesting because the media was reporting on a three and a quarter hour deposition by showing a literally a five second sound bite and I said when I saw that there has to be more to this watching the ones who are gonNA understand what they're watching certainly going to cherry pick from whatever side they want to promote their position so I just went through the I'd like to see what the devastation looks like and in watching it I realized no one's going to watch it even people who are GonNa be inclined to watch it are not really going to understand or appreciate necessarily what about my experience apply to regular life and I noticed those videos got consistent engagements and it was something that I liked I grew to like doing it and I made the joke like sometimes hundreds of thousands of US consistently consistently and so I would put out a law-based video maybe one every ten videos and just like some of the phrased question this is what it allows the witness to answer people love that video in terms of the insight and April two thousand nineteen and since then that's where I sort of focused the channel ah even when I do have a personal position to explain both sides of what's going on and just let people come to their own conclusions which I did with the first visit unless it was like a humorous dad ruins everything type thing but it would ever so I I wasn't looking for direction for the channel but it sort of came there because I noticed videos talk about my practice Jio that's not even including the God licensed to other parties because I think I've seen it on Japanese Oh yeah it was on it was on Japanese television show he was on it was on someone who has has a spin they have an agenda and everybody knows that they're getting that spin but they don't exactly know where they're getting it from they don't exactly know what information they're getting they don't exactly know what exploited a non exhausted so some of the videos ideas that had made a mar may demark like the tooth polling with a drone waxing my legs with a drone grilling stay with the joe and videos the real question is only do I think that I can responsibly put together a video on it without exceeding with purporting to exceed my own understanding of the subject yeah and today it's it's there's a lot of logs happening via a wgn that's right that's happening because the content is generates itself in terms of subject matter could do you know very edgy commentary as well I don't want to even when I do commentary I try to be as respectful as humanly possible to people who don't necessarily share that opinion style is not one which is not like a forest fire type spreading style whereas the elaborate annals who are growing whether or not they would grow faster but they're still growing so I can't blame everything on an algorithm I can't blame everything on politics it might be that non authoritative news or or people purporting to report on things that they want to leave the expertise of mainstream media but that's now I have twelve plus years of law practice experience four years of law school for years of philosophy I'm just going to give it up and go make videos about cooking a revamp that building and sort of take take the law side which is the foundation and then put in the creativity which can be the the stores for lack of a better analogy but it was deep partisan sort of shocking and delivery commentary there's a lot of it and it may tend to it may spread faster but I'm trying to go for the slow-burn of I could mentally more opinion than others which I'm not averse to doing but I I sorta I try to focus more on these are the these are as objective a lay of the land faxes the legal practice is real estate I've spent all this time and money building this building and I'm not even living in renting out the space because I don't like the building anymore as they will there's a way to it's wasting value that that could probably bring two people which I seem to be which seems to be the case and people seem to like the videos I'm not sure that the platform itself you end up like you said full circle before it but it's still like a double whammy because now not only you you're doing concentration you doing video but you using all your lawn as you know and eventually things may have just I don't know how how political or how I know how youtube actually works within no behind personally and not objectively if say like that and so I would say like I take it personally and then I tried to say oh it's because my content etc but then I could go and I look at other a sort of highly politicized commentary tends to spread faster but but that gets that has to get tiring a certain point for the people and for the people making it for the people it shocked and offended just based on called the facts are based on the assessment and I'm thinking of some videos where let's just say the a different that's a different battle in one that I may or may not be able to to win but at least I can be stubborn and stick around for as long as possible demonetized and you get them college people are are liking it in are interacting and engaging that's that's that's actually an and I think I had one point thought of it like real estate like the glue closed doors there but I you must be you must be the only one you know dealing with this well that's why I you you tend to take people tend to take things that happened to them no and that's that that's why I like I like your content to be because exactly of that I I really I'm not a consumer of the the more inflammatory laker saying offended by the by the content but they won't get offended by the delivery or or what they what some people considered like a disrespect for opposing opinions it's like it's like witness and sometimes it requires jostling sometimes requires instigation sometimes it requires like not intimidation but rather irritation but other times it was silly of me to really cause I was acting more emotion and fatigue incidentally than anything else but it was it was not the smartest the best thing to say you can get no spin but I have my opinion but now come to your own opinion yeah that's very cool so it seems that you know you're you're pretty Lucky Wade oh you know this could have been anybody could have been any other politician it's not a partisan thing if people get upset and might be because of their partisan beliefs or their partisan hatred of the other being commentary I'm trying to think of the word I don't WanNa say inflammatory commentary but that highly and in fact it's oftentimes turns them off so you could go for that highly partisan Aligarh they're hiding information from you etcetera etcetera which is thing waste to edgy ways to present an opinion and insult on the people I I could do it wouldn't make me feel good to do it some people don't mind and you know what people are thinking and I I don't get shocked I don't get offended by it myself I just know that people do and my purpose my purpose is not to shock or offend in delivery people might education side where when you present something to judge you could call the adverse your adversary Aligarh and you can you can mock them and you can attack them personally but it doesn't work with the judge requires flatter the requires friendliness but speaking of this framework of Youtube and the way I present videos it is much like the his experience going through law school and how he's been able to bring together his love of law and a video content creation as viva fry on youtube so we touched these videos were all of oftentimes even present both sides present the other side as authentically as possible in order to present the rebuttal but nobody politics it's it's it's it's human tribalism it just materializes itself either in politics football teams television shows rock bands the analysis of the Trudeau. SNC scandal people got upset at the content and it's usually on partisan lines but I could have gone with the commentary side I'd just go with the actual of getting engagement of people because there's been studies that show that people engage more when they get angry on Youtube and twitter and facebook but in front of a judge won't when you the case in Italy it being able to jog to jostle now in terms of exact depositions yes and that's why in depositions there's ways to get the information out of out of your Haydn now they're faced with the prospect of having to vote for someone who's involved in a scandal even though they don't necessarily like him but the other side even more it's like people can still of the which is sort of the way people who are opinionated and and political commentary go and that works that works in this is what I think probably litigator you had to not not not in an inflammatory way but you had to shock either it's without concedes or arrogance I was good at because I could anticipate arguments I was good at it because I could anticipate responses and react quickly to them I would appreciate that it is a method of delivery that sometimes is required in order to reach people you have to be a little shocking and you have to be a little edgy there's people who are going to do it it's never been my thing because out there who are thinking of maybe studying law a couple of weeks ago interviewed someone who a Master's in the same institute were where I might be content it's to me it's united deterrent once I see something like that I I close it in interest I listen to it incidentally on both sides because you need we just don't like making other people feel bad so even though I probably would have been good at a time I don't think I'll I won't go there even if I express my opinion it's this is what the other people think Atas faction like pro bono work human rights work the practice the degree itself is immensely useful whether you ever practice a day in your life minority that law schools except with an Undergrad so it was just a question of what Undergrad do I do that will contribute to my understanding of the law philosophy I've always been interested in who I'm sure love litigation they love everything about it and my you know if anyone who's listened to multiple podcasts at that I've been on I always say this I wish I could have loved it because just and end up going in house or they start a business or they they leave the practice because schedule's not what they like it's not it's not easily reconcilable with with with family replace it into context and understand its importance but philosophy was just what I picked but an Undergrad degree just to give you some form of training how to succeed in university how to interact above and beyond the black and white letter of the law and what I found from the practice also is that the the lawyers who became lawyers without having done Undergrad when philosophy applied to politics to some extent I had an interest in history and I did a minor in history at the same time I think I would be better off studying history now because I could you know business law questions where they know the law but they have no business experience to know what impact that would have on a business so it's one thing to understand the legal consequences but not the students interact with professors it's I think it's essential before going to law school also because you go study law you should have some life experience angel in law school itself it's good at teaches you about the law teaches you about the history of the law and it teaches you how to think critically it teaches you of life as a whole and so they treat law files as pure questions of law sort of appreciating the human elements to them and other times they're dealing with it materializes itself in different in different ways but it's a human to human condition but also a I wouldn't be good at it I could be good because I you know I can think of snide remarks it's on the one hand sort of shape the way I present the videos but on the other hand sort of shaped way I can also deal with criticism and deal with the opposing opinions don't take it personally even if they call you the philosophy philosophy leading into law was just that in English Canada they accept ninety five percent of students who have undergrad degrees except that it's very very into law are practicing lawyers by the time they're sometimes twenty one twenty two they on the one hand of a very they don't really have a full grasp uh can you maybe talk about how that process was Or or do you have any advice for people thinking I might like studying law I love it in theory and if you're lucky to know when you don't know something to know where you need to go look to get the answers but to succeed in law school itself Sorta like every other we touch slow again and now in these last few seconds and actually I think I want to dial or conversation back a little bit more to now thinking of the people listening here at the end now she lawyer in Toronto in a media company in house lawyer so used studied philosophy and then he became a lawyer not be able to appreciate their actual business consequences is a problem you can give someone legally correct advice but that's going to be bad business advice so the Undergrad I think is they've been great love it because I could've could've would've been partner whatever how how that progresses so I don't want to deter people from doing it because people do like the practice a lot of people don't in the his blogs I want to be able to talk like that someday we'll so the the funny thing is I don't WanNa discourage anyone from going into law because there are people who I'm sure love the practice there are people the compromise your position because it does call the other lawyer whatever you want you need to prove your case and so that's sort of on the one hand I think that's sort of guided how I ended up doing so it's good training it's good because it beats you down into some sort of humility to know that to some extent it's just a matter of fact it's by every firm says so this is not deter anybody from doing it people do love the practice and people do find domains that bring them deep sea notice it like when you're studying something that you think is the backbone of society you tend to place a lot of value in yourself and your ability to study it or the fact that you are studying it so there is this sort of was not never expecting was the extracurricular life which was I got to law school in Quebec City she can imagine a thousand students in the faculty and I think there might have been a I was nothing as a law student I hadn't done anything so studying something important doesn't doesn't increase the importance of the person doing the studying the thing that I found surprising that I loved gone through law school was something that surprise you that you like loved the Oh wow this is actually awesome I didn't expect to you know to love this or that so much or the you know daily basis so I got quickly heavily involved in student life in in the first year law doesn't really matter Like in Portugal where I come from it's like if you're if you if you follow this soccer team anything that's from the other team you Kinda fate the partisan thing is not it's not unique doesn't anglophones I'm an Anglo coming from Montreal coming from westbound which is even more Anglo than the rest of the rest of Montreal and going to Quebec city sort of like every other I would imagine every other program is you need to learn how to study you need to learn what what information is required of you you need to learn where your opinion is not James It's not GonNa Change anything you gotta you gotTa argue with the facts above and beyond the names if it if it doesn't stick to you in the second part of our conversation David and I talked about people from you know witnesses from the other the other part not in a bad way or demeaning way but proof-read and but we were putting together Lavar addict which is the Verdict Law Journal and it was it was fun we it was controversial uh-huh small apartment in Quebec City because you need to get out especially when you're living alone in a different city cool what are you doing interviews at all or was it more Lavar ignore the people with these men but I was the student representative of the first year lawsuits and then I then you get involved in sort of a click click and it's a big click but relevant versus where the information of the teach the professor is after is relevant and that was sort of the the tough learning curve for me because philosophy you can sort of get away with since don't really appreciate it and learn the hard way also because you're studying law you think you are you know an elite of society and intellectual elites you have some important position involve people who are involved in student life in the second year I became the editor in Chief of the Law Journal which was phenomenal I mean I'm an anglophone I was writing articles in French having the had every two months I think it was it was fun it was great and then third year law school I ran for President of the Law Student Association and was has your studying law and lawyers law students and medical students tend to have this phenomenon and I and I noticed it because I had lots of friends in university as well on this arrogance that goes along with studying something it's five thousand years old and it's the cornerstone of every Free Democratic Society I'm studying laws competitive a competitive mystic experience to get involved in Sudan life which I never would have thought because at McGill when I started I lived at home I was I was more of a homebody I'd go to school I'm I'm pleading not a not a lawsuit because of the jurisdiction but I'm pleading something in front of someone who went to school with not that we have any meaningful connection it's just was it oh my gosh this hard this was the first thing that I found hard was that nobody cared about my opinion that's that's something that like Louis lost our against that a lot of law students get early on win studying law because you go to parties oh what are you studying say comparative religion say I'm studying it was I was in a new world it's ninety nine percent French and it's and it's great that's why I went there incidentally I didn't want to go to U of M and study law in Montreal infringe but speaking not ever worked with later but you run into them in the practice one of the guys who was on one of the committees he was in he was in the law student association as well I go to court and he's now one of the special clerks winter research project it can get very lonely at times but definitely meet other people organized clubs and and and large your your network and and make sure you're not just digging your whole into into into just looking at one thing because the canned food and watching TV and there's there's a world out there that you that you know exists but that it's sometimes tough to get into the more you get into it gonNA come back to support you in the future that's great advice and I think one of the things once either you go into Grad school or case law school maybe slightly literature and comparative religion or whatever but people get over that quickly because at least they should that was the one thing I found was nobody cared about my opinion it nobody cares what you think just know the law and know how to apply it and know how to gather facts and how to apply the loss of the facts and the facts of the law and so you had family that were interviews but they submitted articles we had journalists who were students who submitted regularly okay but it was mostly a question of getting articles getting content putting it together printing appreciate people who are involved in soon life also because it is further evidence of the ability to socialize and interact with other people which is which is among the Alan well in your case specifically really dealing with with stuff related to your to your study subject that was that must have been awesome it was a great experience and you meet these people who good to know hey how's life incidentally the other lawyer also we we all knew each other it's a small world but you make these connections that you keep for life you run into them later on in the practice the difference between ninety percent and totally uninvolved in student life and eighty percent and highly involved in student life experience when applying for jobs in joy life much yeah I think you're touching on a very important point is getting involved in in in clubs in or or create if it doesn't exist you know with like minded people it was you know I used to read these books in high school and say I'd always been interested in philosophy it was a no brainer do political science as well but political science really is and also keeping myself saying I can't deal with everything and you know there are so many subjects out there that I'd love to talk about some of them would require go home go biking and I would keep to myself but when you're in a different city with at I know friends if you do that you're going to quickly become very depressed and I'm just reading the way you drafted of and right now it's almost twenty and not twenty eighth all of my God it's almost twenty years ago fifteen years ago it's it's fun what happens and then you have events that you can decide to go to to get out or if you're tied you know just chill out but you know but between the the irony is good grades always work and good grades are always better times it was political but it got people talking got the students involved in submitting their articles and it got me to meet a whole bunch of people that would otherwise never met and it got me out of my a but I go back and read it every now and again just just in case I want to run for prime minister is any one of these articles going to disqualify me in in the eyes of the public and elected student president of Alyssa and it was it was also phenomenal because you learn how to run committees you learn how to organize events it was just it was overall a fan they may be people you end up working with maybe people you end up working against who may be people who end up offering you a job in the future so it's just a great way to establish a network and you never know when giving a lot more of your opinion what you think is a lot more relevant than it is in line long when you start a sentence with I think stop there nobody thinks the judges saying with the law says on certain on certain positions like death penalty for example but there's certain things I go back and read I've never I'm not embarrassed or shamed at all and I still largely adhere to most of those things but it is eh nervous I say I was always operating on the basis that everything I ever do would go public in any event so even before this time so I i read my articles are there things that I still believe I'm more oh Jeez so it's not that I had it's not that I had it easy I just didn't have any massive roadblocks like I got I got a job or to find it so I I I occasionally go back with the with the advent of cancel culture I go back to see what sort of things I wrote in university but I the funny thing is I always nervous I essential elements of being a good lawyer and in your case working in the law journal they can read you what you edited and they can actually have that type of info or they can read it today if anyone now what about transitioning to become in becoming an actual lawyer and people who are now setting finishing was that what was what key moments what were key Russian can it's not to say that I ever suffered from depression in Quebec City but there are days where you just like what are you doing you're sitting at home eating condition after second year so you basically apply for a job that they promise you before you even graduate law school before you even do bar school so coming out of law school I got the job before you even go to bar school. So it's called the coolest or stash which is like the race to the internships or what some people call the rat race uh-huh and there's a lot of bilingual francophones there's not as many bilingual anglophones in the world of law even though we're in the province of Quebec it's an asset for dealing with out of province out of Yeah I had that secured and it was sort of it being being a bilingual anglophone is asset to most places because you have a lot of there's a lot of Franken Shen and to hear from our latest guests between eight at night and eight in the morning I won't answer other people with different types of personalities and myself included you can quickly spiral into a into a place your internship approved then you've got to pass the bar so the question I was going to ask is if you're in law school what skills what's because a lot of who you are as lawyer is balance but this is already in the professional life what skills you know you social skills clearly you you've mentioned them even more difficult start on your own entirely in baptism by fire type type training but the The most amazing thing that I discovered as a lawyer was who are not uninformed and are not uneducated now it may be a problem also because they may think they're more educated than they are because you can get information on on the Internet and not exactly know how to I'm definitely also doing sports X. Exercise Number One but now in terms of getting ready to hit the hit the the the the things that I spent ten years studying in order to diagnose yourself but by and large you're dealing with a much more educated client base and with the Internet held to be immediately responsive and that is good to a point and then it becomes a problem after a point and it became a problem with me because I not always never did and again thinking of the listeners out there through all of this we're talking about work ED texts emails you're dealing with a client base also expects and demands immediate responsiveness and some people are better off cutting off and saying able to turn off the switch I'd say I'm very rarely able to turn off the switch and then it becomes sort of all encompassing in anything I mean I talk about it being all encompassing and law but it's sort of all encompassing ars the person you know you said you had this interest in philosophy from before but what skills were very important for you that you learned in law school then now I'm sworn in two thousand seven the Internet is sort of hitting its peak so to speak you end up I was amazed at the point where you end up having clients because after this bar exam there's Inter you have your Article Bar exam I I'm so going so crazy I can't remember which one yeah no whether or not a province has franchise specific franchise legislation and if you don't know that and you think I'm just GonNa Apply General Contract Law I'M GONNA get in trouble and that's that's the the skill that's the fear and that's the that is the always the sort of Damocles hanging over lawyers head when they give an opinion ah you know basically you can create responsiveness is an asset for people with certain types of personalities. You feel uh-huh I I know you have to do your internship before you pass the bar because if you don't pass the bar you can't start working I think that's the order yeah so then you might think I am I may need to know like if you don't know regulation exists you're GonNa have a tough time answering a question if you're answering it based on an an the the sign of ignorance but it's where people get into trouble is thinking they know something without even looking into without even appreciating that there are things that they don't know that might impact there died always gone to so it reflects becomes a liability sometimes when you when you get too lazy or you don't know what the what else is out there Iceland and Oh and being aware of what you don't know before thinking you know something because I think it is in any field it's sort of like it's the not the served you a lot in in your work as a lawyer it's the one skill and I don't think it's unique to law and it's not even so much a skill it is a question of appreciating what you don't that there's a specific regulation dealing with it and so Google helps everything you know the Internet helps everything you don't have to go to libraries and delve into the footnotes and pull up these statutes but you need being implicating himself in university bodies or or students organizations that might exist very important. Were you create an expectation that you're you're going to respond to your clients even if it's three in the morning because your blackberry is on and whatever you've you're showing your age but yes your iphone inadequate or insufficient knowledge of the applicable or existing legislation and that's that's the toughest thing because oftentimes in law you got a question you may not even both worlds for me to the extent that it's to the extent of sustainable applying the law but without the emotional and spiritual impact that the Asian and imagine it's the same thing in any domain but in lots I've looked at this this and this is there anything else that I haven't looked at that literally eighty year old cases they addressed the very question and then I sort of argued by analogy and I said okay good and then he goes to court comes back with a piece of paper it's a two page judgment actress itself had and I say this in a couple of sitting back and being the spectator analyzing a deposition is one thing being the lawyer who is conducting the deposition and it doesn't feel like you're working and I I love content creation I love the creativity behind it I like the subject matter behind it and it sort of is the best pursue you've you've already mentioned that the economic sustainability of the project is something you see working out it probably back to the expression the every day trying to protect yourself protect your client from the opposing party trying to protect yourself from opposing counsel trying to protect yourself from you're trying to protect self as a Montreal litigator turn turn Youtuber and publishing what you call blogs via L. A. W. Every day we've talked about this a little bit close to every day I'm trying I'm a year ago it the exact same answer the exact exactly matter but he said it looks better when we have the two thousand seventeen thousand seven decision I'm trying to stop every day because I have to control myself but yet often but how did this transition game about you know you've decided that this is something you want believe it but I do understand that there is you know for the people who can't separate their clients problems from themselves it becomes it becomes a life quest burn the law that is that is itself tremendously stressful and but then there's the the actual practice itself which I could if I had loved it more than whatever I do you know who I am and how I'm wired but that is clients no more than they ever did and are expecting responsiveness and like they like the they scream on the phone all day and to some extent screaming kid is not necessarily screaming for an adult or screaming for a lawyer but yeah you look you spend all day need to make sure that I've covered all my bases and that I've addressed everything that exists there's no loopholes there's no I haven't missed the most obvious one of the classics grew up you screwed up your your opportunity or there's there's there's a different level of stress that goes along with that and not just a stress for the position but a life stress that who are I would consider retroactive mentors in in law school the former president of the lawsuit in association the one who handed you're going to should've said this I should have gone there and in files in general you know there's there's deadlines there's there's an element to the practice that is above and beyond the I should and they say like doctor has to be dissociated from the person on on whom they are operating and the best doctors dissociate themselves I'm not sure the now this is today the last couple years you've embraced content creation as you may know compassion at Byu pretentious the other one I no longer wanted to do and it's one thing that analyze the deposition but when you're in the deposition the night before you don't sleep went over everything in your head after you don't sleep I love it as much as I love doing this I could've continued doing it and then you know the the the the other stuff is the stuff you have to deal with to continue doing what you love but I it helped me in law school as a lawyer I had a number of mentors but one in particular who he knows who he is who was among the best mentors I ever had who tried would have rather been at work than been anywhere else I was maybe it's a flaw but I would have always rather been doing something fun in quotes than than working as a lawyer did you along all this bad have mentors that like the guided you because there's there's some of the transitions are quite interesting yeah in retrospect I can appreciate week or call me sensitive or whatever I'm not sensitive to the to the qualification one I want I can appreciate when I can do flipside is taking your clients losses when you've done everything you could as your own losses has carries its own toll and the aspect that I defy with more I'd say Gordon and I always thought that maybe dissociate myself too much would mean that I would be too disinterested as an attorney not not do service to them but the in who loves what they do never work day in their life and when I discovered like I'm not making making sustainable income yet but when you make money doing what you love Klein from themselves where I took to heart took very personally when things didn't go the way I wanted them to when the when they didn't go the way I thought apples that I had from my own practice was a lawyer asked me to for procedural question go look and I go back to these I find cases from the they are don't like assuming responsibility for mistakes especially when they are objectively the mistakes of the underlying who didn't ask for a specific day whatever this lawyer get me to the clients problems are not your problems you're the lawyer you do your best you act responsibly if it doesn't go the way you think it should have you guarantee you're doing videos in highschool studying philosophy than you go to to study law it's you have a great time in law school From from what I understood say I have yes in sort of like self diagnosing so people people go to doctors say I know what I have to say I know what I have but don't you have to appreciate you know I found that I found it to be inspiring because all too often lawyers whose only thermometer metric of success is how Byung lawyer too big law firm they are labeled mentors they tell you what to do and so it's sort of like an imposed mentorship but I've had multiple ones is

David Mendez Youtube twitter Dawson Montreal Grad school Europe Papa PhD Dot Com Papa Peachy Viva voce Paris Google Papa PhD Florida Iceland Canada Quebec City professor
Abel Polese  Building a Fulfilling Career Piece by Piece

Papa Phd Podcast

1:01:18 hr | 2 years ago

Abel Polese Building a Fulfilling Career Piece by Piece

"Can Life be made exclusively of successes. Can you find fulfillment in a job that pays well but is not aligned with your values does every post doc. Get to be a professor. You're in this episode of Palm Beach. We address all these important questions and much more as we talk with bell policy about his academic career about all the other things he has going on in about how he glues everything together to achieve balance what he wanted to now. If I just remember even you remember when you went seventeen. Eleven months and like twenty eight days and you will in Tuesday's by parents whatever he wasn't going to be a key and today pat and nothing changed because for you you are for that. You're just through date older. So don't do. Don't don't kind of postpone what you what do you. What do you want to simply? Because you think aren't GonNa get tenure and then to have fun. Have Fun every single day of your life. You just get out. Welcome to Papa. PhD With David Mendez. The podcast where we explore careers and life after after Grad school with guests who have worked the road less traveled and have unique stories to tell about how they made their place in the world of constantly evolving rules. Get ready to go off the beaten path and hop on for an exciting new episode of Pop each. If you have a question or theme that you'd like to see covered in our interviews. You can now simply go to the anchor DOT FM for Slash Papa Peachy and recorded message to be featured in one of our future episodes and be sure to follow up a PhD. Theon facebook twitter and instagram and to subscribe on your favorite podcast APP. So this week. Talking with Adele Policy is a researcher trainer writer manager and fundraiser dealing with development and capacity building in Europe in Asia. He's also interested in science. Excellence Excellence Open. Science and alternative indicators to measure science performance and he's the author of the Scopus Diaries and the illogic of academic survival a short guide to design your own strategy and survive bibliometrics conferences and unreal expectations academia a reflection on academic life research research careers and the choices and obstacles young scholars face at the beginning of their career. Welcome to the show a bell. Okay so I like now to let you talk a little bit more about yourself about your experience going through your and About how you you navigated that path from your today. Actually preparing post of for block about how not to do so my PhD. It could be taken as kind of negative kind of the best practices four spot so right. PhD In has been a very much genucel. It's a kind of worst practice. Emmy Best Practices and you have worst practices. So was I mean I dropped it out of my studies Initially kind of entered. Because somebody say that abused is the delay distinguish the ultimate demonstration of your her can of intellectual capacities and I was working with lots of legal science at the time so I am I enrolled in. Nfl I are excellent so you were explaining how someone told you that a the beach was the ultimate ultimate step. You know to to go to go to if if you were if you wanted to show you know to shore to prove your intellectual capacities salaries hours playing May and my degree. And then say what I they do and Muslim Michalis going to inter- shapes and other things and I decided that I wanted to try to give the tribe used soy applied to several universities and UK I got accepted and started a PhD. But I was never able to progress. So in the end my adviser Said's I'll be really sure you will continue with this and I'd say they'll so I dropped out and I stayed one year just doing other things I mean I went went to Ukraine is working on I mean I stopped doing research but without without a PhD. Without Being Jones the end of the year I started looking for her and all the PhD. And this time decided that I go For beastie and French wine French because everyone is working English and I say well really fast too. I mean I wouldn't be able to to use the channels that French has which completely different so I thought But the problem with With this was that I found somebody in the end. I mean they choose a very good school and the person who was supervised knee was not Caridi in An expert on the subject so up to now I do not know why she agreed to provide. Because it's such a verse that I would just say okay I'm not able to Just go to someone else and I was just someone else but and also she was kind of advancing their career. Here I mean I understand if I'm your first itchy student then you're like okay. I mean I'm keen to student but I think she was supervising those into the PhD student. So what what's the difference between one more and Wallace. So I couldn't really get any decent feed for some time and then I got some advice to get a second supervisor and the seconds revisal just let me down after a few months to a loose loose. Like what should I do and finally found somebody who say okay. I'll take care a look after you. I Changed University. I moved to Brussels and I finished my be east interests I I was friendships. Well Because most of the comment to the first adviser why your friend She's not enough yes is but there's also something beyond the mission was improving and say okay. I can prove you working all we all. You'll always working now The PhD in itself was not very long compared to North American standards. Because it will be five years I mean. After five years I'd might agree The Dane testing part that I mean the article be interesting which is the transition between PhD life and and Kind of The work the job market is that in this. In my case this the drama of the Bostitch determine didn't happen to me He'll a few years after when I finished my PhD. I actually had a joke and it was a very good so For some I mean having been working I mean maybe it was. I mean okay. He will ask him about the social science in the social scientists. Many do not have scholarships ships. Oh you just have to do whatever you can to survive it just like every other people was looking for ways to do things so I did I go very very well. Bay offer summer and I was just. I was using this money for my research year. And then I was doing consultancies trainings Indiana was basically working and we didn't get the same time which when he came to enter the joke mark that I was able to jump market we dow the PhD. Just because I had much more Even compared to people we so Alan this job was I would never imagine I could get because it was. It was like for almost native German speakers I am not. I mean they want to kind of fluent German. I applied and the answer meekly the Lexin German and then they had to. I had to kind kind of I spend two or three weeks using dictionary to communicate with them and at the time. The interview I kind of I showed my car and I you say well listen. I'm not able to work in German but I'm ready to an a work on it and just say fine so my job interview was helping German healthy and not that I got this job. It was well one. It was a stable one so for two years I didn't worry about anything. And then the famous horizon twenty nine the F. B. Seven stopped in the European Commission so we're giving individual grants to Kind of students Winston. Both dogs I apply in the very first year and there was not much competition so I got this fellowship allowed to go from my. I mean allow me to go from my last year a PhD. Into two years of post. Doc I didn't experience any transition because actually the peace and even when my phd defense was delayed. I didn't care because I didn't have to enter the job. I was like okay one month for okay. That part was was you. We already had that in your in your pocket lizzy. Yeah it was. I mean it was extremely spoiled but what was difficult was after because opposite three after five years the bubble I woke up to discover that my kind of My academic who had been crazy traveled when I was not competitive for I wasn't a UK. Okay where department they look for vertical specializations and those specific age. I didn't have any. I mean that was doing kind of area studies. I I mean there was a special region but nobody classify miss an apology society and so I was not of interest of any department art and because they wouldn't be able to be competitive with me than the national kind of evaluation exercise. I was kind of a little bit of everything which Che's go in some cases but that one so I spend I kind of submitted. Sixty educations when my my kind of fellowship was ending and that didn't get a single Response I got to edition for interviews in two places that are very I mean. There was really not secondary but even I mean they often imagination of many people and then no All so would I had to do look around and this is where my transition stars because I decided that I mean I am and then twenty eight founded Bostock in Estonia. which is where I kind of most academically because there was a time when a student was getting lots of money so that we invite loss of foreign scientists The Saturday night wanted with ahead in before so was worried but the same time I had a three year contract and I had Probably said that would be also employed permanent teeth if everything goes well And also this was also so good because I didn't want to move from one six months bostock to another six months plus all consoling so my strategy was was to look for something long term and it was a bit longer so I was getting very anxious in the end because I was applying apply. Not Getting anything but career transition was not this one. Reason was that I decided that also because I was very worried I would never have to repeat this thing so I'm not depend and on a single employer and what I eat. That was differentiate my Mike and of Chops by works so I started adopted applying for funding other kinds of for major funding and eventually after almost a year of projection. I got one and then I got another one. And then one and Aqua- This was in Estonia. That was already when I was Beijing. Estonia actually does the The news about the fellowship came and then like three weeks after there was a news about I wouldn't some small productivity spoiled. PROGENITOR was like two hundred thousand year For the next four years but with which meant I had read a basis in a raid yet. Start my kind of career in terms of fundraising on phasing terms of research and it was the Pi of this Trojan. So I was relatively young. I was only two years after my PhD and there wasn't any Pi in in a project which in social times is very very common And this was in the domain that you had studied was it was a follow up of what you've done in your peachy Yes but what I was doing. I mean the specialization I had is more regional than than disciplinary okay. Okay so there is a part of social social scientists where you call it just areas studies and you study area regardless of discipline so kind of mixture of sociology anthropology political science economics so sometimes for some grounds you kind of Put the accent on now on economic part parts of some Ottesen Yogurt So it was about suicide in the former Soviet Union and made was about identity but but he was also in the same region. And because we're going to talk about Your book the Scopus. Diaries later on but in the book you talk about Niching this when you started to to to gain her to learn your your skills initiative well I think I mean I have I published I recently a short block for these what I say I see this. The origin of the scope of stars is that when I was very anxious so I started the block with data in May two thousand eleven. I woke up for the first time in a group of a panic attack so it was really liked the moment of my life. It was reading words and these have comply in in made without eleven. And I don't WanNa do this anymore. I mean I don't WanNa be in this situation more so I would guess that. Stop thinking strategically about your life was more unless there. Even if I already had started flying programs you and they're a bit earlier but I mean understanding that you can rely on one single. There are one single person and even one single employer because the employer then your line manager changes everything changes And then he didn't want to spend my life complaining about nurture so I say I went up in a situation where if I like them and say I'm leaving and then it's going to be their problem mitral. So so this when you had this desire moment The way you cope with it. I tell me if I'm understanding well is you you really Focused and and try to design a solution to not be in that in that position anymore. yeah I mean you cannot cope with dengue diety to find. You just have to calm down but That was the moment when I was supposed to be in the moment when I realized I didn't want to I didn't want the standard two years part because his per year career especially like refile be very difficult to to fund regularly. Okay so in. So what happened after so you started having success getting funding What were the what what happened? The next How did the next steps come up? And and and what were the things that you did have to wear after that well In Twenty he twelve hours working as Dona and as I say that was very I was a bit worried about. I mean there's not worried about ability but I was doing this. It was easy for them. Back from Estonia and Scotland when my family still was And because the salary was much slower I was like okay. Can't we consultancy here and their revenue. I mean my companies so it was a bit word as NFC okay. Maybe I went to something else. I got a call from the European Commission Russian. The work has is a communist For the for the research and this is something that many people just my environment that these what a dream about because stable you got social security gold salaries much higher than I mean it's higher than the than Cadet relative academic ones means comparable. I mean it's a good salary and then it's a nine to five job so once you finish your job to. I mean it's basically illegal to contact you beyond your working hours if you if you the office. You authorize not went to the foreman. Your a bus can get angry but it cannot do anything. And that's A. And then he was a contract with one plus two Plus Two plus one so if I I mean because of the Reform Forbes if I wanted to go to that state six years and European Commission or this kind of very very stabilize like you were from Monday to Friday. Go home you play with the kids then for weekends you organize yourself. Sometimes you either escape somewhere you by saying or you just go through the countryside and you buy the house and the issue but after a few months over like I'm not GonNa stay here I mean and this is the old respect for old people that manage staying there but I am somebody who's has very I like at lost videos and three lies made us and it went to work for my ideas and and Staying there was more about okay. We have to work one thing. You'RE GONNA go slowly at once we're GONNA get there. It's going to be there. And he was basically just. It's not compatible with my way of life. Also because I'm very happy to work weekends but then sometimes a Wednesday I'll just disappear and do my own things And Iniguez inauguration where you work is controls. Listen My unit was by the number of hours you sit on On your chair or any office. He's who's done what I want to do. So after a year I left so it wasn't a good fit deter you know I mean I think it I have some many with friends. I mean some very good friends working there and they kind of they find that niche. I just understood that I mean when I was leaving I was I was kind of scared. I mean Michael League would not understand. I'll say I'm leading. Are you changing department. No leaving is he's changing organizational unit. No leaving and it was scheduled to leave behind all those things because in six years I have many friends who have become come permanent so they. They know they're going to be going to have attention again. I mean dance just as security does of security and I was like no. I'm leaving this for something I don't know but I think after those and okay I was also lucky because meanwhile One of my project that added life you use is before because of bureaucratic kind of I mean because bureaucracy funded by late so there was a product that I submitted before going there and then Consolo to negotiate. That started more time when I left the you so what I could do was leaving you for an autoshop was not leaving the so you just to be unemployed even if I think there is some employment the whistle unemployment benefits but then I just say okay. I'll just GONNA go and my my goal is to make money. Michael Michael is to have fun. Life's one and then I started working when I am now. which is for Dublin in Ireland But the money was not enough employees. Full time so I also the permission to things simply because I mean that was the other the other time it was fifty percent so I could do all the things that I just I was going around trying to. I was getting consultancy's getting things here and there but the late motiva- was that I was never interested in money. As the first thing I would not do things for money I will do things for because I liked them and because I thought there was the reason to do that and then at some point money. We've come so many jobs just for free. I mean they say also you for I mean I remember. I'll tell you the Asia okay fine. I'll come we. Don't you can pay for your working days it's I'll pay you for to go there that I can tell you. A Nice meal can be nice down. That's all okay. In other cases it was like no. I'll pay you and then we'll have some money left and we can pay you a small hundred times. Hey I'm happy with this but my motivation was just I need. I mean I call them things that are fun and useful so they are fun to do and useful. Bring some US separately experience. That could be you money. That could be new. Friends could be new context. I never measure things in monetary terms and they say well as long as I can eat and as thunderhead pay-wise daycare interesting and so basically In that in that In those activities you built your CV. That was what you're regaining writes in a way. Yeah Yeah I was doing so many different things beyond academia that of course to stay in the loop I had to publish and anyway anyway I liked writing so I don't mind But then there was would ask him. Do you WanNa do you WANNA be penalties seeing this thing and I don't know the number of things are done is quite diverse. I mean I've been. I mean just to give you a couple of examples. I've developed a training package for young women on the financial literacy so how to use. I mean how to use non formal education methods to teach young women in Africa Gotten Asia. How is open this business if they even if you mentioned the dropped out of school so you cannot just say okay? I'll give you older. Mathematics picks and so he has to explain the in principle complex concepts but in a way which is understandable by some one who has stopped at the school so they're not used to do this kind kind of unequal knowledge. It might have been very good at business but it just had. They not been framed in a in a in a in a kind of in a classical scholar. The and this was very kind of rewarding fun. It was paid little for the amount of effort I put but I was so happy to see the final result because they were working with illustrator. And if the tool is now available in English French and Spanish for fee and it's a very kind of reader-friendly so I'm very happy with this excellent end and today wh what's what's your what is your life your professional life look like today Okay I have this. Disability comes from my academic job which is not full-time and he's not permanent tournament. So money as long as my project break money and But which means also that also I ah fewer of not being a permanent faculty Kind of exempted more by a number of things from a number of things And also I don't have access to a number of things including a career progression so we know be professor. Let's say change my strategy. She but the moment where I am I can go up an economical without. I'm just stay and I think even my solid six no change but Would change his his among the time that fee because my vote is no on the percent and then I can just what things and other things mean in. In this case I mean trainings. Developing training on for journals we now tried to develop a statement workshop on how to mench any career treats I'm doing lots of freelance. I mean not Joe Brian small journalistic beaches or logs. And I don't have to be paid but at the same time I'm building my profile and I'd really I enjoy so as long as I can just learn to write by writing happy to do with free and then from time to time amusing. Expect then. Somebody's face off actually GONNA pay for this or this great at some point These also gave me the time. I'm to Prime Scopus Iris And to it's not just the book because then it'll evolve blocking around the promotion the fact that whenever I go oh somewhere I I deliver at least one worship on one of the topics and also the fact that I can allow myself. Say Well if you don't have no money to pay me it's fine. I mean I never negotiate thing if they say sorry ally. There's just no money as a fine. I mean I'm there was the So it looks like you found a solution where you are. You're doing research so you stayed close to your to your domain your experience on that side but you've given yourself you kind of a model. Where if given himself the freedom to develop ella projects that that you love and that that give us satisfaction that he's not only monetary and ender? That's very inspiring to me. I think I think Especially for people. That may be listening. That are that are in the humanities in the social sciences You know maybe think there's not there's no Single Way to to navigate your professional life and I think You're a great example if there's no sh- general way and sometimes she's very hard because I don't think there was any I didn't have any any role model I didn't have anyone say or you should go this way because if she should go for professorship if you go for a job you know that this is the way you go but my professional career was just about tried to say no. I didn't work okay. Tried this wage. Were just painting work. So it's very the unstable and it's very Difficult to navigate dies but I have to Sam. I'm content. We put him to excellent so We're GONNA take a little pause and then on partout we're going to talk exclusively about the yearbook the Scopus Diaries and In about about You know what no what brought it to write it and and even what's what's experience Promoting it and what's been the reaction that you've I've been getting from before going on with the interview I want to thank you for listening to the show like an episode and feel that. It's helped your inspire doing anyway. Cherish with your friends may be willing spire them too so welcome to part two of the interview with Abell police And in part to talk about His book the Scopus Diaries and the illogic of academic survival a book that wrote at this this moment of anxiety of not knowing what was coming next professionally in his career just for the listeners. Out there The titles of of the main chapters are writing creating procrastinating submitting then publishing negotiating advertising consolidating then growing extending expanding multiplying than shining standout getting visible faming academia then shining into getting even more famous than niching balancing positioning then networking talking traveling moving around then funding spending earning and other money issues and finally conclusion on the challenges of designing academic strategy so a couple of these chapters are particularly pertinent to to the academic path but I feel that a lot of them are are applicable to any Any person WHO's looking into developing tipping their career and developing you know their their CV and developing their own career In the the job markets so Abell tell us a little bit more about the Scopus Diaries and how you came to write them and And you know what's what's the publishing this book has brought to Your Life. Yeah so I called I called the cost about a couple of Dara's is going to fail a gain. You feel better and then book about because I never meant to. I mean in a I was never interested in Scopus dyers until the Vice Rector of the Venus Medically University one day after seminar came to me and say can have if you took. Let's see what book the book about. Publication strategies had nuts. And then I went home and there was like well. If you ask him for such book maybe I should and this and incidentally this is something that I've been doing for for years just not knowing that. It was like Boston's because One day I mean I'll be honest. I just wanted to work. I mean I wanted to go opinion work with the Federal Demi Media and he was like okay. This is Swiss You apply for it. I'm going to help you brightened application. And then we're going to have time you too just to hang around to discuss the Trojans so we apply we got money and it was the scientist in charge of kind of supervising the team. Oh No supervising advising team about how to get proper internationally. So I went to university and I I believe in the workshop a two day workshop workshop about what are the chances I mean without the attitude is strategy. You should use to get your research publish if you're if you're not already famous so they were kind of starting scholars in the junior scholars. How would you start? I mean how would you be able to deliver what the the ground with. The donor was asking for it which was international relations and the way historians so the book the The the the was history which is not the easiest thing to sell l.. especially if you are from the region where the social science you mind. He's been very very kind of under look on so I asked. That's my friend. Just record the whole worship and then to to to transcribe it and this is the skeleton or this is just a role the Sushi. He does the the rope the domain the of the Shema this issue off the scopus there is because this is the draft. I went back to once the vice district drastically to to get him. Hit My book but in the beginning it was just something that I put on on Cadena Ito and I ask people to come in. And let's all and it was even thinking no publisher is going to be interested in. It's very happy just by the ESPN and just to published myself goes also wanted. I mean it's typical my life so I wouldn't need to be accountable. I want everybody to read it. Everybody just have access to it. I don't they don't care about the getting publishing with a publisher and they don't care about any mining because anyway you'll never get rich from an just wanted to release it. Yeah I I just wanted to practice. That's that's that's the basic human need. They say I just WanNa Express myself you do your do you think I do my friends and and you have foot but And then one day I mean that was also of course you never give up the idea that maybe somebody interested. So I said it to that books which is radical publishers interested. And incidentally the the the director of the publishers have been GonNa cut it had just returned from a scope semi and you say it is extremely useful in this extremely important ice support. The church I mean and I say okay. I alleged support at one condition that the price is going to be the lowest you can because even if it's going to be sold in a very happy to have to pay for the the production so I'm GonNa have to pay for your your people dive setting and Colbert and your were so. I'm very happy to help you as long as we don't sell this book under Euros a cycle so they Nisha Prize was to be twelve ninety for the book and then he promised for from his fine nine thousand. Nine hundred eighty e-book and I think financing is very fair because it's just took office in in kind of everage central European capital will And I it wanted people from out of Europe to be able to fight and even if six euro in Paris he's not secure zero in Lagos. I understand that six year you can deal gather and publish also if you WANNA publish some parts of the the book for Free Just WanNa shut it somewhere so it was the best possible approach. What had happened is than I got so motivated at the book moved from forty thousand. Words used to be a short guide to eighty five thousand words so the publishers say we can all stay in distress By eighteen more than double the pages here can we and and also there wasn't understanding so in the end it was setting a nineteen ninety nine thousand nine hundred ninety which is still how can we have seen in the kind of lower lower rung. We're talking about two hundred thirty two pages here anyway. It's it's not it's it's good value for for the amount of information that's in there and I think I mean when I buy usually when I buy book that I just read this for fun it's between ten and twenty so I think it's there and also if you want to save I mean I can also I showed the books you can be right the review and you get into a free in the yearbook steel sales up by nine so she if you really don't have the money to buy you can just by the time it is accessible ago and sending it of course you have people who are more. I mean the funny thing about this. Is that more people some people they expect to get all the things three so whenever I oh central Asia they'll say okay. Give me give me a book as a favorite. Yeah Yeah Yeah and some other places like villain last week yellow selling and everybody was happy to buy and then let's say it's not for me. Just throw Jay at So getting to the content because this is but I mean this is important for the content because each I mean that's my logic mission which is I won't material. I won't knowledge to be Widely accessible I everyone And then the book was based on my personal failure. I mean how I kind of fell out of -demia by making his own choices at at some point and how little by little was able to get back and get a niece and I initially came when I understood that in the U K I I had no future because they are very I mean they were looking for very specialized. A profiles provide is not visualize but at the same time that all little countries with that which. I'm more excellent this so that's a destination bar and and then he was also so I mean I was also relying a lot about on on that I won't they thought it would be useful but there was not I mean I'm not the genius marketing. Think not I mean I'm not so good those aches but they also understand they're needed so it was also motivation for. I mean vague if needs to go and look into those things how to promote you your stuff about show that you are kind of active and by doing this. I was in uncovering so many things everybody affecting on. How could he networks that? I decided that the book would not be extremely politically. Correct is somehow irreverend. Sometimes but I tell things as I see them and they remark that Agok from From that Oh who's got the blog and you say well the the good thing about your book is that you're not telling people how they after those things you telling people how you think I mean how did you miss. And then they can choose if fully. You're they just do another way. I showed the reasoning behind my choices. So if I do this this it is because I consider those factors and those factors are bonded with this way and which means that eventually. That's my choice. And what is your choice. I I duNno I duNno which university I do I. I don't know which country you were. I don't know what kind of career you want you right in the yearbook right And this this that was very close that the like the central interest of up each podcast. You you're right when someone needs to decide whether to enroll in addition to the question what would I like to study any important question. A prospective student or their parents will ask is. What are you going to you do after you finish You know clearly you you you you navigated a lot of this on your own but for sure you had a a lot of questioning that happened in those different moments of pivoting and the and looking for solutions given your experience Syrians and And thinking maybe of some of of what you wrote in the book What advice can you share with young people either considering a Masters D- Or that there are in their PhD and are now having these These questions can you sum up some main main advice me insights that you can share with them There is a book written by a former Mafia in New York and book is cold. War Damasio man can deeds owner businessman and in the book he gives. Yeah I mean he's the kind of redemptive fios is so he used to work. Mafia and onions was not really his couple The anymore now but he also noticed with this that initial Dr Marcus. Doctor I mean word is much more important than when you do business because when you do business you have worth. But then you have the small close Miss Missile letters and just screw your pastor because because of mine and they say oh sorry finally business and So in the book that is accorded I are you side which is long what to do and you will never work is single day and I think that this is the helps in the thick of whatever whatever he was your career. I mean if you do would you like to do. You might not have as much success as you might expect next to it but in the end if you have a job and if you have success doing something that you hey that's GonNa consume your your your your liver much much more than if you are poor and happy so the point is issue. Just look for what is not what you want is not looking for happiness but looking for something you are content with I prefer the especial content because acting is kind of going beaks or so happy now but you can be happy every day of your life but you can become thank you can just go on. You can go to bed. And I'm I'm very I mean I'm very pleased with what I have today and if today was not doing simply because okay as something that's been but I notice more is going to be good instead of having a job that it could be even wealthy. You'll I I hate my job. I'm going to work one more year because has to beat the markup title because I wanted to buy the house Immi- it just important to believe whatever you're doing and then I'll some point you would find you you. You will find your niche there and young issues none of society. You should not measure success by money you can make money okay of money. It's just one of the indicators. It means a society mind for me whenever accept binding society. Appreciate you and somebody is able to a willing in to spend some money for you which is rewarded. But once you got the money to eat the rest is just about your work with people that you hate you work with people. You have fun you doing the things you you had to go for a beer after work with your released or you just looking forward to escape because you just cannot stand you in I you have to do extra work just because you know that it's going to bring you something goods or you say on my goal if I don't the new extra work I'm going to be fired. And and that's what they feel motivation him with business positive which is not fear or be five or fewer field but his boss US giving the sense that I i. I'm having fun doing this now. I think this is useful. I believe in with that. That's the only tweet. That's the only way to go to have a balance. Then you can have. You can have fun tastic salary and you you live. There are many other ways so having it should. If you measure things by making more money just really I mean not the snowboard. I like some people like it so you might have you. I mean for me and for the people like minded is just believe in what you're doing and make sure that you have fun you happy with what you're doing so tried tried to make choices is that are aligned with your values your core values. Yeah we can spirit without is with your kind of what you feel in the moment which is is different from from a choice on the emotional? I want to do this now. I want an ice cream because what an astronaut I mean you can also get an ice cream you know but just I feel so I tried to look into yourself not what I appreciate. This would have the most noble goes for me. What does the stinks at? The end of the day may be made my my my life feeling. That's very very good advice. And and I think there's a lot of of talk nowadays. Because because of the media the way devolved in and the taboos that have been broken but a lot of talk about mental health. And I think what you're saying is key is key to Being able to either do your job or do your your Grad school research but keeping keeping your mental health while while developing these these projects which often are stressing or stressful and so. I think it's very very very good advice in in a very very good way of thinking and just one thing. I don't want people to think. Sometimes I go to bed. I'm diet is not in. My life is like okay today. I mean just today today at a very they were much winter so not when but awesome days. What I got laid and I'm I'm stressed the same? I don't feel that this is coming from something. His Post it is like avenue objected. And I know that for some days just have two more and there is always I can steal clout by the one an end to one because in the long term that I'm I'm doing what I believe. It was awesome but otherwise I tried to so you human. That's what you're saying yeah. I don't think that I'm this kind of grow GonNa fall and you're going to be perfect and you're not gonNa over work Monday you like sometimes I I I i. I'm in. I'm there because I e chocolate from guidance because I'm a good this is not what I do everyday and this is not. I don't do it in a way that a say I hate my life I do it and that's okay. I know this would this month after suffer because I promised to do those things I really wanted to deliver those things and if I do them and threatened the year's going to be and nothing and again it's super good advice vice daycare self-care super important And if If you love what you do like you were saying you can find the will to to to finish and and to complete your tasks and then take a break after if you need. I agree totally now. I'm thinking of Now people who are young you know. They're they're following the path of the of the Suryadi. They're doing their post doc and thinking. Okay how how. How am I going to get to to tenure in x years Given given what what you've written and given your experience which is y. We've we've heard what your solution to that conundrum was but for people who are now like stress or anxious about that you have some advice for them to to maybe See the light at at the end of of what can seem to be tunnel then for tenure. Either that the I mean. I think there's another person more by the the have. which is I read the blog which is amazing? It was about and a girl. A young woman was a truck at Harvard for seven years as she was extremely stressed in the beginning and then the whole block cost is about how she overcame all those fears and and the the bloggers called the seventy and she says instead of looking base is going to attend your truck I say his seventieth also this dustic and instead of thinking. I'm going to have fun when I when I'm going to have tenure say I'm going to have a now And I try not to overwork so so I would advise anyone three at one because I don't remember the name of your friend. I'm so sorry. Prefer she stayed right now. But you know you know what I'm going to do you're going to give you. We're GONNA talk after the interview. You're going to AH WE'RE GONNA find it and again I'm going to put the Lincoln your show notes at the link is by the way Olsen Scopus dyers. I put it because they think it's painful so the important thing is do what he wanted to. Now it's like just remember even year remember when you went seventeen eleven and like twenty eight days and we're like in today's my parents alone electoral. Do whatever I want today fast and nothing saying you are for that. You're just days older. So don't do don't don't phone what you what do you. What do you want to do simply because you think I'm GonNa Tenure and another have fun? She don't learn to have fun every single day of your life. You just get out and then you've got a more interesting so it through is is good to stress. It brings our Adrenalin and then he brings you kind enough desire to go further but the same time. Don't overstressed and thing that your life is going to be over if you don't get professorship because is obsolete and all the greatest ages success as they thought with a failure or success is the byproduct faith and again I agree with you and often Tell me few agree when you go into science and I remember feeling this you you you see you've been taught. Examples of different discoveries. Scientific anticipate discoveries though that were made and developments. And what what doesn't happen when you're taught these things is that people people don't tell you. Well they will. We got not to discontinue but before that we had a thousand failures to have this this result and and I think it's a very important point and we think I'll predict conclusion because we forgot to Gutu to to close the today and actually reading was a good thing and it's like I was fired and then there it was Yeah like the story. There's a racial or if I can the since the engineer. The Russian engineer Soviet engineer that created the corona was claiming that was able to lend even without engine because he was the dynamic was and And I I mean I know this story because drunk grandfather my ex wife used to be a pile of Antonio I mean those any was also flying donning at some point and I'm in but the the story is that so he goes that on because I don flying Kazakhstan the pilot. The main pilot gave an order was understood. This switch the ended the engine off and they switch engines and the place they without engine and they had to have an emergency landing in index. The whole crew was arrested because they say you kind of it was another. I was working was a threat to national security. He was doing something crazy. And so when I'm tunnel none of learn about this same no no. They never mental that demonstrate to the fact that the plane can land without any consequence they have diverged life and they will straight to the of land without The things that the engines. Yeah so just this is. It was a complete failure anyway the other way so I mean I don't know all my own my best. I mean some of my best thing they were coming from all it was not accepted for the job. NPR's NPR and he's not he just said by not getting getting one thing he's just let yourself open to other things and that important and then awesome points also they call the career accelerator some phone. You'll live economically made when you would get position or you would get ask ask is going to accelerate your career. Because he's going to make you meet lots of important people lots of time to think and then you cannot progress much faster. Nana Nana Society in your three year but in your view on the job market. And that's going to talk to you a lot and then you're gonNa work even against the will of the normal pace ace and then you're GonNa have our say accelerate is gonNA bring you so and you can never predict when you when you fired and then you go to somewhere. Yeah but I feel that at this point because you can't predict one of the things you need to do is keep always keep an eye open to opportunities and end And be ready to have conversations with people that you cross the elevator or yeah the whole thing and also the train yourself leave. Is it because there is nothing certain. Even if you have any truck you your had faster Mike James you might hate them or hate us so much you want to change. Oh yes you are in the business sector my bunker anytime or I mean even if you have a permanent that means that you're gonna see that but it just just sending huge. Yeah it's like when you cut yourself in delusion that things are GonNa last forever and nothing and no even in the twenty first century everything is fast asked when we read the most we wonder eighty characters. No more I mean how can you. How would you say yeah? We don't have the careers that our fathers others than grandfather's Had you know that here in the states they say they said you start a career and then you know that you're going to have a gold watch when you're when you hit Retirement right that's over. That's that's that's not like that anymore. yeah I I agree with you. It would not in that time any more of a UH of having one job one career all your life in even I think people now more and more want to have a diverse career and they changed. There's there's numbers on a on. How many years did it takes in average for someone to change jobs but not only that people do multiple things a little bit like your light like your pets where you find a way to not only do what you love the cady meekly but then developed projects that you love and that and that's that are your the fulfill affiliate in in different and more profound ways also So now basically what I'd like to do for the end of the interview would be thinking. Think of the the the listeners out there will be the they on the academic path or not and again based on your experience It may be thinking of people who might be Might have the preconception that you know. There's only one path to follow and that may be the anxious that they fail. Maybe give them some advice and They'll give him some hope. And maybe some tools to make sure that Little failures failures are part of of life. Especially once you start doing doing Grad school and the and doing research but that's small failures doesn't mean that you can have a fulfilling end and content life. Smoke fills big failures about life. Last year I submitted the project chicked. I was demanding for a million and a half viewer for the project and they completely screwed the budget and for some reason. I mean actually my assistant and did and it didn't check so it's my fault And then we demanded to one hundred fifty thousand to fulfil approach was needed on the Hudson meeting so basically our spraying not to get the project but when I discovered that I was shocked. Because they'll say oh my God this has been among the work and I've kind of I title letdown older partners because they were counting on me and it was horrible and it was also the realization of human. And like all. We never happened to to me what you have to so I think it's difficult to tell somebody who is now kind of depressed because of failure dumbly depressed because safety and I just think it's no that life has announced and they think that the downside the time when you you You Have I. I mean it's a gift to in the sense of these days sometime. I mean you have the chance to take sometime individuals sometimes fuel life and look into yourself and to say okay. Who William what I want when I'm going and even if this is a very heavy I think this is a great opportunity to to change. I mean I I and I'm saying this from I mean I divorced like three years ago and that I I mean it's been very difficult but I honestly I missed Mr Time. I missed the time because it was a time when L. at when I just say okay today and not going to work I'm just GONNA price and I'm just going to say what I'm just GONNA I. I'm feeling what I'm doing and also I don't want to work on those things in another one or two of those things and then just going to look into myself and see why. Oh these are half the so in terms of failure a divorce is also I mean I you can also do the huge and then you said why did this happen. And that is the Chancellor Tortoise then why are you doing things and what you should know. Repeat in the future and why you go there so I don't think the small failures I think big phase of life. The big failures are as long as you can. Keep your mind saying and as long as you don't go crazy it's it's such a moment when you say okay. Let me stop for a moment moment. The word is not going to end the work for for a few weeks for and let me just see what I can. I mean would address without appointed pointed to trust in my life to kind of straight up Excellent those this is a great way to finish the interview. I think it's very inspiring and very true and like you say what one again one note. Mental health is not it's nothing to be ignored And it and it's an issue in in in in graduate students and the and I'm sure also that people looking for tenure. Like you were saying you know. They may deal with stress lot so deal with those things. Give yourself time to heal whatever Kevin needs to be healed but for sure Like like a bell was saying. Take time when you have these. These big failures take time after that to reassess assess and find the the path to to To something something better and learn also learn the lessons. You need from those failures because I guess and tell me. Don't you agree agree. One of the things after this reflection is is the lessons learned right. Yeah but I mean I think when you have an accident you break your leg you go to the doctor and the doctor say all you have to feed yet to take some rest okay. And they it gives us some exercises and and nobody ever tells us then you can also break your leg in your head. I mean something can go wrong with your brain you we using I mean especially people who have intellectual jobs helps us the brains everyday so football players you go there you run you've tackle and at some point you break something or you kind of You get an equal injuries injuries. But no notice Mandel so the brain can get interest and that is no permanent. I mean we have also a section all if if the brain has is something permanent is mad is is stupid his whatever it was like no the brain is a considered Massu at some point. The brain has something that goes wrong wrong and which is something that would happen to everyone in life and then the only thing you have to do is to take some just like the saint who wins twist. Your Ankle Aches Abreast Youtube Fisher brain. They summarize you break something more serious. They Samoa risk or even go to a doctor and the doctor was okay. We should trust. Is it just it just buddy so yes. Mental health is important but is important also told us that we have not just to look after that we just we have the right to to be ill simple but after some time definitely about this was a great conversation. I had a a lot of fun talking with you and I think you show us As me and the listeners that that does not again and just one way to do things and that you can tailor your your career to fit your values and and if it's your rhythm and Eh and to have a a contented and happy professional life So about before we finish Where can people find you were can follow you if they're interested in in your in Your Path and Illinois more about you and about the Scopus Diaries help I won't be just with my name and surname position I also have a tweet differ Scopus dyers which is scope. There's the book itself it's on sale for the North American market on the website of Columbia University press which is the official distribution of the book And I'm linked in as well The same name and surname very no nothing to hide. Put a moment That spoiler some about a more I mean and they usually more interested in Arlington. So that excellence and trying to kind of build an audience so yeah if you WanNa do favorite is follow me so thank you very much. Thank you and and good luck with broadening the book. Thank you. Thanks for listening to another episode of the Papa Ph D. podcast head over to Papa Pete's Dot Com for show notes in

Scopus Diaries Grad school UK Estonia. publisher professor Europe European Commission Asia Trojans Mike James PhD Palm Beach facebook engineer Indiana Papa Peachy bell
Navigating uncertainty as a PhD with Vera B. Chan

Papa Phd Podcast

52:57 min | 11 months ago

Navigating uncertainty as a PhD with Vera B. Chan

"Welcome to another episode of Papa Peachy. This week on the show we're going to talk about uncertainty. Particular employment uncertainty in academia and outside of it in the current pandemic context. Now in between jobs after her third post doc. My guest will share her journey up to today and we'll talk about how confinement led her to take on new projects, teach herself new skills and double down on her investment in networking. And Remember, I have to new podcast discovery trailers share with you this week. So be sure to stick around with US until the end. Last year I have doubled to my linked in connection. I think in the past I had the mental barrier thinking I shouldn't ask anyone who I've never met. My lengthy profile should be statement like facebook page friendship like only know this people in real life and I only connect with these people and I have taken a long way to break that mental barrier that I could. Make friends with pimple that I haven't met yet in real life. But guess what these people ended up like maybe I would say five to ten percent of them had actually given a phone call and tell me about the stories become relationships that you're. Welcome, to Papa PhD with David Mundus the podcast where we explore careers and life after Grad school with guests who have walked the road less traveled and have unique stories to tell about how they made their place in the world of constantly evolving rules. Get ready to go off the beaten path and hop on for an exciting new episode, of Pop. Today. We have with US Vera. Vera is technically the first unemployed person I interviewed on Pop Each D. Graduated her PhD in Hong Kong from two thousand fourteen and had six years of post doc experience working in the US and France this year Vera decided to decided transition into a non-academic rural and she's still undergoing the process of job seeking as a foreigner living in France. I am happy that she's open to sharing with us about this vulnerable moment the less glamorous side of life after the beach the you can say that not so many people are willing to talk about Vera is the host of the Beach Coffee Time Youtube channel where she shares her insights and advice covering all aspects of life as a graduate researcher. WELCOME TO UP Steve Era. David thank you for having me. I'm super happy to have you here. We we've been talking for a little while there was summer vacation. But now, here we are. and. And Yeah The first thing I would like to ask you would be to introduce yourself to to the audience to the listeners and to talk a little bit about this this path that you've or this journey that you've been going through up till today. Starting with with your academic journey. Okay. So I'm vera. Some of you might know about me from my youtube channel that make videos for you to For PhD students. I'm actually affect PhD student because that was a life that I lived many six year seven years ago I have three times of I have been post op for three different institutions, and now I am officially unemployed and going through transitioning NFL note this a Hash Tag on Twitter Coast Act like post academic. In that cohort. Yeah. So that's my. Academic history and my background training was life sciences and actually marine science. But I refrained myself from same marine science when I have a job interview because people. Are Not, very interested in. Marine scientists and that do microscopy. We run jails like you guys do in science in cancer research but I mean, the just have a an emotional detachment whenever you saying they're in science. So I would you know what I'm GonNa, give you a chance today to talk a little bit of what you did in European given that you refrain yourself. I'm usually talking about it. was, the subject you're done. That's A project is really a romantic one say is called bio main station because. I I let me back from PhD I did double major in my bachelor's degree which was biochemistry and they call the and I am really curious about. Subject in general so that the two major seems repetitive to a lot of people because most people would take second major finance accounting something practical. But when I choose again as truest biology steam type of major. and to me, biology biochemistry was like a microscopic view of life and a call. The is like the macroscopic view of life and fascinates me a lot. So when I started. My advisors saw that I had the skill to marry two different ideas to different discipline. So he gave me another challenge to marry the engineering projects to life sciences. So I was in marine science lab which is specialized in proteon makes notices and that was in my head I wanted to learn pretty are mixing that Latte. But at that time I was in charge of a project instead of proteon mix, I was in charge of. Mineral formation in marine animals. So if you go scuba diving and you see, Koros and all this restructure, the adjust natural mineralisation process and to me, it fascinates me a lot how the whole planet or this important by productivity of our planet was because of this mineral farming says, but commercially, it is important because our teeth is bio mineral are booms and the minerals. If you break things, you have to find a way to repair it so. On offense the aside I would say, I, have a value engineering background on on. Tissue repair but. Theoretically I'm just. Mostly. Working on. Shellfish and how shellfish mic shows and Says I'd of how and. So eventually after your European d you went abroad for your post doc. How was that experience A. Lot of people there I. Myself came for my came from Portugal to to Montreal for my PhD. How is that experience? Was it an easy decision to take and and you know? What. What what did these use of post-abc bring you in terms of learning in terms of of growing not only as a researcher but as a person. It was really tough for me because I? Change country from like the city, the Metropolitan Hong Kong to South Carolina, which is a college town of nowhere I mean I was I would say I was in the US but technically speaking that was not the most representative sight of how everyone remembered like the New York City Boston California I think I was among those trump supporters community i. don't know if I should speak politics here but like a Conservative religious people they're good people. But like they, they just not very much seen from Hong, Kong later visit how calmer example. So to me, that was a big coach shock because then I have to quickly learn different type of thinking different value system that I never thought of in Hongkong. And is it was challenging in the beginning because I didn't have a driver license and to two years in the US. And anyone living in Kenner the US could tell you if you don't have a driver's license, you pretty much house cats you. Do. In the lab. So, it was the most challenging in that aspect like even go home to visit family I have to convince a friend to take me to the airport and knowing that that day they free and I can book the flight ticket, which is really stressful to Okinawa's. Yes but The terms of cultural shock when you when you move countries yet. And it I think you know a lot of people move around when they go to graduate school but people in smaller countries and I I'm calling from Europe. Often they leave their country and through that he could be the food. It could be the boa you mentioned the politics could be that there's as many things that you might. Find wherever you go that might create some difficulties. Some friction let's say. Eventually eventually I guess you. You got you. How can I say? You know you you got familiarized with that and you ended up. Getting knowing the ropes and kind of getting your own well and you got your driver's license. Said right. Five Times I failed. My written test ones and I felt my road test twice and after five visits to the DMV, which is the department of Motor vehicle. that. If you if you win the time machine exists, that's the place to go. To our past, you don't even know how it has to go in and you sit there and wait what number to be card and you failure written exam. Go again next week. Eventually you decided okay I had. This cultural shock. Now, I'm going to France. How did that come about? So It was. Practically, not going to make a glamorous here is all authentic conversation today. Is just by funding ran out at the same months when. France won't the world champions soccer game. I remember that week I was watching that and like we were just excited Oh France won the champions and and the same month I gots like this meeting. My heart was heavy in that meeting. My adviser said, we have no funding and one do have one more week. We will run out and I know in America with the visas I had I had to find something critically so but it was like a very strange coincidence one of collaborative from back. Then he sent just a random information email that this institution is hiring. Post doc description was like a ninety nine percent match of my PhD I apply with the thinking that I know I will have a lot to offer but I didn't really think much about how much do I think this is the fit for next careerstep like I was thinking this is a job and I take the boxes though I want to be there because I felt like this resume like this job distortion is asking for me. So I show. And I did get the job in one week. It was strange for another post doc is sounds like I'm bragging, but it's just I. Think it's a lot of star aligning in that week that. The job. Especially pursue the to profile was like ninety percent fitting. What they were asking that's also. So common rights. So perfect. So we're going maybe a little bit fast throughout your journey, your academic journey but the thing is I kind of want to talk about other things because looking at your youtube channel, there's a lot of interesting subjects that that you've been talking about on there and. but before we go there, I still would like to to kind of. To kind of ask you you know throughout all of this and thinking of maybe your viewers on Youtube might my listeners on the podcast The I'm sure there are lessons or there are. Common mistakes that you have. The you have identified during your journey that may be people who are listening can can gain if if hear about and you know you start, you did a phd you then moved countries you moved countries again. Are there some lessons? From this journey that You traveled a lot. You move very far from. Home. Let's say. And we didn't. We didn't even talk about how often you were able to go back and visit family. But yeah, can you talk a little bit about lessons learned from all these academic journey and maybe of the struggle struggles or mistakes that if you knew better today you, you would not have done them loss absolutely I. I was start with thinking that we scientists have researcher a lot. Of Time, we get lots of information for our own research and revalidate them twice, and you know try to make sure we have all the inflammation from source but ironically I think a lot of us didn't do that for our career. We get the sauces from once one go family of people like academic I. I love my advisers they they're still really good people in my life that I don't. Think anything less of them but I think as a journalist stays the fire in the building together all this. Also from the experts I witness, you know other who is there in the time like try to ask as many different sources as possible to know what to say in the news report the same for us as researcher for career choices I think it's very interesting phenomenon that we add taught to think in A. Very, focused way because I think in academia that's the only criteria I mean one of the biggest criteria to succeed is to be ten vision and focused, and somehow it deter a lot of students from gathering wider sauces speaking to people who have a job speaking to people have been working for a company that new scientists like those important inflammation to know what is suitable and what whether does some options that you can consider. I think that's the biggest mistake is I didn't take a lot of sources from different perspectives and also in Hong Kong, we don't really have lots of robots live examples that are in the industry to be fair most don't become professor. They just work in the government sectors which I know I don't want it to do so is. Felt. That was the only into it to step to go out of Hong Kong and I still think it wasn't a mistake when I look back because if I haven't been to the US I would have seen the industry of science and how my skill set is valued. If I moved to announce the type of political environment that is my home and I think for people who want to see the world from a different country perspective, I think a post is to violet decision. But for people who think that poster is everyone else is doing and that's the only way to do that is That is not a good way to choose it. This is the best way to to decide if you want to be a post doc. But right now I have to post in France and I don't regret it very much because I learned some French and. Speak a word of French before I started the positions so. And I built the. European culture sensitivity like now I know European. Love to have coffee breaks during the day. So if I become a manager in the future I would not let people take a break that's. Those are the life lessons. Beyond science that I felt like not essentially mystic, but I wish I had more. Information to make a decision in the beginning. So you. So what you're saying is people who are, let's say starting their PhD. Too So. Kind of advising them to not have too much tunnel vision and to what form of question is what form can you take? Attending seminars on different things attending career fairs, how how can they start working towards having a wider angle view of things instead of a tunnel vision? What's the things you think they should be doing? Or they could be doing. That's a very good question because is. To have either you become too distracted or become like to tunnel vision and I had heard in America they have They have a orientation training faculty member in. And we were post oak and we were asked to sit in to what we expect. They suggest ten percents or professional development per week is simple as that. That means they do work sixty hours a week us should be budgeting six hours off that week. It could be every day at lunchtime for one hour. It could be every day after work like one hour more before you go home to watch. US. Samina. Ask, someone for virtual coffee break right now we can take the big and also yeah but I think. That having a log book or having a system to track those time and say I'm done with ten percent off my week to to know this and I am reasonably tunnel vision fifty, four hours of the remaining wake on my research and I think that's the good balance to strike. Over time into in four years, five years, it will pay diffidence. For sure and and the thing is you you won't be caught by surprise once either you decide or somehow live shows you that you're going to have to find a job. You will have this log book you'll have notes taken You'll have emails of people who may be met and you can you can start networking and making things happen, and also I mean in science, we love to have a stretcher on everything and go and milestone and I think that's present is a really important training like a yoga class you go in your show up and you just. Let your body tells you your back is hurting today your armies heartache today or this hamstring is ties and you need to like sit in that post for longer and I. think that's the same power of professional development is you never know what you learn from each other and I I love to talk to colleagues in engineering. For example, when I was back in PhD we because I have to be in charge of the to discipline but a lot of time I've learned the goes creative idea just because of serving how other do their work observing how other people set up their lives and and those that the opportunities you. Like letting yourself free and open minded to from others and I think it just takes ten percent of the week and another people you'd be surprised how many of them they? They didn't invest that one hour of the day or six hours of the week to do. That is those people who don't do yoga and they cutting back thing and I think that's the same. have. In academia. Yeah and well, we're not going to make go into it but of course, physical activity you were mentioning Yoga any type of sports is very important during graduate school because you're again, you focusing so much on this thing, you might be at at the microscope for hours or at the cryer stat or whatever Yeah. Very important for listeners out there to stay active and now in terms of covert well, that's even that has changed. But still as much as possible. There's zoom sessions and things happening. So so yeah, actually. Do My Yoga with still South Carolina teacher this days today. Because I can't follow a French Yoga class to work and also don't. It works for me. Now. We talked about what you you know quite kind of quickly about what you went through in terms of. Academia the. Some some advice for listeners in terms of. How to best navigate but now you eventually you got to a point where you decided. Okay I'm going to make that switch and going to look for a position in industry. Can you talk and share a little bit about? How that came about you know and and maybe how you felt once once that idea or that concept appeared in your mind just so. There are two side of building when you are developing career like there's one side I I was obsessed about learning what the professor work looks like, and I was doing a lot of inflammation or interview on campus when I was in the US and want to know about the transition actually that one spring semester department was hiring professors. So I get to see like fourteen candidate onsite interview and I saw the phenomenal presentation. Then we like researched, what are what does it take for them to become interview and shortlisted onsite, and every one of them we spoke on pincer lunch because that's one of the interview on site. Is as postal and graduate student get to ask questions of the professor and challenged them how how they can become a good one for the students in and so we take notes and we have a question poor to ask these professors and having that activity really was helpful because I understand how the whole academic hiring process is like from the inside. Instead of just thinking that it's the frustrating ought to bid when you are submitting application and Ave obviously is competitive, but it's not as bad when you know how in the end, actually some of the most desirable candidate rejected the offer because they have better better phrases to. well, and I think that is that that is a good vision to know and I think we are obsessed about no way. How are the jobs to how to get in the job, but we don't spend enough time to understand the this pestle right you're matching one side to the other as the pestle and you know very well on the other side. But a lot of us don't know how we shaped like and whether we at that piece of Pestle to fit on that met lot. At reference for days the book that I was reading about PhD career, I can send you the name of it. Yet but it was. So. That was the moment. That I was interested but also knowing and can help realize is about to work and is also required a lot of openness to travel to relocate. It could be Alaska it could. Be. WII could be an island in the middle of nowhere. So I was a little intimidated by by that not because I am not had working I have always worked quite hard. I, would say in my career, but it's mostly about knowing my situation whether it's going to fit or not. So career I would say is like Shoes. When you are choosing the right shoes, you know and you're right you're not in the shoes and you are feeling comfortable everyone can tell you your shoes looks pretty and your Chakib, but you're the only person that no, it hurts. Vice answer your question but is a feeling that I felt like. I don't see myself fully comfortable and happy in terms of what I want to do with my Rove to people my road, my family. And I have to say no and Important things in priority. These last few minutes Vera just touch on something. Very important. She mentioned that taking the next steps into her academic career felt uncomfortable. Like it was not in alignment with her values and priorities. And that's when informed her decision to turn to the non-academic space. This, question of looking inside yourself and listening to what your gut is telling you. Be It about the choice of your research subject and Pi. About whether moving CDs or countries for your post doc or about starting to look at different avenues for your professional future. Each key to making choices that you will be able to stick to and find fulfillment in. I next asked her what strategies she's put in place and what resources stern to to prepare for the non-academic job hunt. Here's what you had to say. So I, let to make an analogy before I answer I think any transitioning of career is very much like a broken relationship. You have to move on from one partner to the other like you have a boyfriend that doesn't work out that you want to move onto the next one a lot of time I think people have the negative thinking all the time about Oh. This is the most terrible person this. Is the worst experience in my life and I I want to say this is not it. This I want to think that this is my experience that was from a useful time that I really enjoy everything I have learned in my academic research and I know there's a lot of takeaway like I can talk to a lot of different culture of people from different cultural background. I learned that I can do technical writing. I'm not a native English speaker, but I'm quite good at attention to details and I yeah. So those little take home of knowing this journey taught me something. What it taught me about me as a person because self-discovery is both ways on the after you have upset a friend and the frontal you a terrible person. Then you know I shouldn't do this, and maybe I was inclining to this way of doing things and I think this is a both ways. And during this unemployed time, I have invested a lot of time to be exploring who I am and what if I done that is working what whatever I was my sweet spot. What are the things that I do the best? Maybe I'm not the best legwork work person for example, like in Marine Science Research, you did to be heavy lifting the marine seawater system like you need to be quite tough to work in the lab. So I may not be the best lap person but I'm always the person people come to ask for advice on the manuscript Tang revising how the language is like and people enjoy my writing. So I do. Know, that from my past experience and another aspect of Rachel Rachel spectators thinking. About yourself is also were introspective about looking about an inside who are. has to come with talking to people to. To us the end of my contract I already start to network king more and polishing, linked in profile and quitting more appropriate business friendly photo on. Nitro thou- and rewriting other narratives of what I think I have to offer for my next job. Listen to what viewers just said. How does it make you feel? A little uncomfortable maybe some imposter inner talk. Well. Viewer makes a very important point here. And that is that employers in academia and employers outside academia don't speak the same language so to say. They're not looking for the same things when looking at candidates. That's why you can't find a CV when applying for an industry job. You have to pair it down and distill it into a one or two page resume. And it's also why in the same stride, you should make an effort to be present on a platform like Lincoln and show an image of yourself as professional as possible. As that with about three hundred people on my network, which I know in person. from my maybe academic record and. After I re redone by linked proof I, think it's a mindset shift because academic academia we don't need linked in profile to find a job where research gate and Redo other things like twitter's right But I think Lincoln is it is a statement saying that you are also. Available if someone wants a freelance job or you know something but you can still be a student, but you can also have a lane profile that advertise what you could do like bio analysis or statistics like those skews that you could offer. Don't have to have a full time job and I think that is a profile that tells people that Your Business Ready. It's going to be online this more streamlined than your academic CV right right and employers recruiters they this is a friendly system the algorithm helped them to recruit. So you want to be socializing on the dean and I don't know how you. Remembers Facebook, for example, your friends on facebook that whoever shows up on your feet at the people who use it more frequently. Then essentially your best friends but they just you know have more likes more comments they show up on the top, and that's how unfortunately this world of Algorithm is working. When most people comment on your posts on end and your your recruitment recruiter search ranking could go up. So since last year I have doubled to my linked in connection. A lot of people I have to remember from each younger time when I met them from school and I never really make connection officially on nineteen. There were a few that were mostly from inside the inside group like I've met David do on. I think in the past had the mental barriers and King I shouldn't at anyone who I've never met as she only my profile should be a statement like facebook page friendship. Note is people in real life and I, only met with these people and I have taken a long way to break that mental barrier that I could. Make friends with people that I don't haven't met yet in real life but guess what these people ended up like. Maybe if I would say five to ten percent of them had actually given a phone call and tell me about the stories and that become like a friendship an informational no interview for my side but like I become relationships that you build. So and in that conversation, those are valuable because knowing what those people have to go through in their career and I mostly connect with people who already have PhD and also going through similar transitioning because I felt like is support group system that I can build if I have more outlets of knowing way of people could go. Some people are proud. Of being msel, they they they live like on a suitcase and they travel time. But some people are proud of being a medical writer and tell me you know I get up at nine o'clock in the morning and take the kid to school and I work in California time. So I'm still ahead of you know the person is on the East Coast and. She yeah, and I felt like. Knowing these different perspective and sharing their story, and after that taking a look at what? Works for you is like shoes. Advice is like shoes I make the. Ahead of myself. But when people ask linked in questions that there is a track, you shouldn't ask for advice and I have done that like you ask people what advice do you have a person who is? A foreigner. In France like. From any advice but if you ask people their stories and what did they know of anyone who has similar walk of life and can I get connected with that person? Then I actually got connected with someone who has transitioned from a PhD to a job in France and she international and she told me all the work required to to. Transition Visa. And I could then go to a job onsite interview and tell the employer you know this is not a big deal. I have I have no people and I know lawyers that could help to do it and I am committed to this opportunity. If you let me and I think having that perspective is giving to give you a lot more way to response to like what are you going to do with your visa situation. So what I'm hearing is because you were talking about having informational interviews back when you were in the states but Lincoln today allows you to do that online if you if you find someone. WHO has a profile that interests you? You can approach them and as as you're saying. The eventually they respond and they can even share their stories. So I think that's a very, very good tip that we're giving here. And don't be afraid to be rejected because they people always have things to do and the background, and you never know why that person that knows you and is not the person who attack is just that person may be changing diaper at that time and respond you know. There's all kinds of things happening live, and if that person come back to you a few months later, that's good. If that person don't feel interested in socializing with a stranger than than this could to it's about conversion rates. Videos and I know exactly. Thousand. People Click on the video maybe only ten of them subscribe. Always, a conversion rate in life and yeah and I think to be making to make normalize and celebrated success. I think is the most important in this journey who so? I. DON'T WANNA GET Too much of a clean break here and I do WanNa talk about your Youtube Channel and we will talk about it soon. But. We started talking about Lincoln. Talking about skills and skills that you were trying. To tally up what you had accrued throughout your journey but. Excuse me. But. What I what I was wanting to ask now is. So, once you did this introspection once you looked at, okay. What can I put on linked in this this this this. I imagine you found gaps what what did you do What were what what initiates initiatives that you take to then fill out some gaps that you found that you that you thought okay. You know this I can I can get this extra skill I can. Do this extra networking etcetera etcetera. What and I imagine that you. In the middle of this process. Now, right that that you're looking for a position and again thinking about listeners and listens to who might be in the same situation, what strategies have been winning strategies for you. Well. I was a winning strategy could be overstatement since I come I myself. I got the job yet but I do have a strategy is i. Read People's Profile. And other times I analyzed how they structure the words and Watson those they use and it may be a right. The Iran might may not be anything right to wrong but I I would be. Giving a score in my head like where does it reads? Maybe some people use like coffee symbol or some people use like an Arrow Ha I need to change my actually but like the ongoing process and there's no one and done do for in. But I think keep breathing what people put their and knowing this gives the valued like maybe that that specific species name that I have worked on not it's rather than thinking. Maybe they value the skews of like searching for genes on NCBI platform and blast know like those could be the key word and you never know so I think taking good time backward to look at what you have and don't lie about what you don't overstate it. But like also to see what how people frame it, and what are these people especially those who has already you know they probably have a lane profile that's working so. Dot to take note and learn. And about. 'CAUSE here we're talking about how to kind of format and and we're talking. About creating a nice. Nice Very well tailored profile link in. But what about you know in in day-to-day life? Skills that you that you. That you. Feel that you were lacking in. In these last few months. What have you been doing kind of to fill up those gaps in black I'm glad you asked this question because I did. Take a lot of initiatives during my free time when I am officially unemployed well, I would tell my previous boss. I was do writing a manuscript for her like it's ongoing. But like I also had taken a lot of self improvement time first of all I started. Thinking that you know I can't have this negative moment of my life be a training woman and I need some food for by praying that is nutritious for me to do meaningful things. I turned to books that are helpful like the like Basically Shea Book Rich Dad Poor Dad. But I think is really good rate because it talks about being rich and being poor is the state that what is decided or what what you do it right now decide whether you're rich poor is not whether your bank has money or not and I. think that means a word to me at this moment because I understood that if I m taking myself as a leader and if I am training and improving myself as if I were working in that big pharmaceutical company and what I would do as their employees in the future, maybe I will end up in one you know. It's important to to make that I commitment to to be a rich mind person and I I mean financially. But like I think maybe financial come a long after. So and also Walk Rich Dad Poor Dad has taught me Tako message was we may be one skill away from the job. Being very successful, and in my case, I think it resonates with PhD we are trained and tunnel vision to one particular. Discipline. One tool but sometime, we may just need one skills like law accounting but computer coding like for me. I have taken a few online courses on Pizon and a little bit of machine learning I also took have taken clinical research pharmacology classes. Those two were offered by Nih and I did the certification after that. So updated those on my lenten profile and also was. Both enough to write a post about it. So people saw that I I was committing my time to improve and got the skills and knowledge of clinical research because I'm a biologist which I say basic science research. But I was surprised by how similar we are. Because by statistics like it's The p value is the same meta-analysis, the same like hypothesis testing. I use her US human. Difference and I think that's that's an important thing to convey, and if I haven't learned and heaven taken a look from the other perspective through those courses because I felt like you can't invent your skills from nothing, you have to take a perspective from the other and then creates that list of what is desirable. So after that car, I actually got the phone calls from recruiters. Ask about my background. because. So you building something and then you're you're leveraging your Lincoln profile to kind of show what you're what you're doing, and again show that you're open for business A. Blueprint and I just just tell you the all the people. I know that are working in regulatory or medical writing beach freelance or or not they all come they. The they studied birds the studied And now they're they're working in Pharma. So I totally agree that the so many transferable skills and that it's you know. Once, you acquired these specific skills that you are that you've been talking that you talked about let's say from the. H.. You become a really really great candidate and I think again, listeners out there great blueprint follow. Comment if you want. Medical Writer. Clearly. Listener out. There is looking for medical writer also, I didn't think of that. Vera. We're almost at the end of the interview. and. One of the things that I still wanted to talk about although it does not have to do with your career per se but it's something that you're doing. Now you're putting energy into and annoying and created putting content content out there for for PhD's is you have a youtube channel can you talk a little bit about it? What it's called and what type of? A feeling of reflection lead you to start that to start on that mission. Thank you for letting me talk about my youtube channel. Yes. So the I fiqh PhD student on Youtube because I felt like. The most on this opinion about a PhD. Study can is hard to come from the real actual he student because of time we're learning by doing and I mean, even people put fluoxetine stuff. But like you know if you want to the most honest experience and help full ones, you have to ask from someone who has struggled and seen everything in reach And talk about how my previous career could be like a voice ex-boyfriend and people some people don't like to talk about ex-boyfriend. Talking about your past and knowing what you have done and how far are you have come from there it gives you the consolidation to move onto the next chapter and I also am a big fan of put paying it forward because I mean all by mentors and everyone who helped me he s g they don't need anything from me most of the time I think it would be a word to them if I can help. Other people that are coming along later in the journey to to be successful scientists. So that was my mission and I forgot to say the Channel Name, his PhD coffee time that was inspired by the French poetry of coffee. Breaks. Because we had to is mandated breaks. Enough that it's like a very. Religious at eighty in France, they are not religious anymore like the the French coffee break is everyone's religion in a day like the. So, yes. So I felt like if we could highness this type of social activity PhD because I felt incredibly helpless and isolated when I time I really along when I was doing postal PhD and I wonder if they better way because I mean sometimes I, it's not that I don't have friends but I know if I talked to a friend, it took another two hours and I have problems stopping from conversation. So I wonder if there is a way to have a virtual social feeling that people feel like they have someone to talk to. They also learn something you know that's how the best coffee place like people give you a the two cents and to is the two cents for is valuable advice and maybe solving a whole week of problems so. That was the. Intention is. I want to pay it forward and I wanted to make better use of my time during this seemingly harsh and unproductive time of. Career is a career break and recruit can look down on a why can you explain why you have nothing and no employer wants you I feel like instead look blaming the system and how visas can hold me back from getting the job. I am I'm in control on every aspect that I can't control which I mean nobody can stop me from putting a video on Youtube. And helping other people and I am a strong believer that if you are willing to put yourself out there and help the others I think naturally the universe with do something back and help you as well and I think also it helps me to know that I'm helpful like if makes sense. Totally makes sense basically the reason why I started. The same. I might be hd was done years ago and I had the same feeling I want to give back to that community and to I want to help you help you know a handful of people not fall into the same mistakes that I did. It'll be mission accomplished for me and I think I think you probably have the same feeling? Yeah Yeah and I think a lot of. Alumni, they only vocal when they made it to professors like. Don't make it to become a professor. They become this pilot. Themselves may be feeling like I failed in mission of trying to be professor and I have nothing valuable to share but that's really not because they those other nineteen ninety percent of the population that is out there and there are ninety nine percent of all of these PhD that doesn't lend on. Professor job that once that advice maybe before they become depressed or having issues and I felt like having being okay to talk about unemployment and like why I'm showing up to date I, it's not like I I have you know I am I am not embarrassed about by unemployment I mean I'm a little embarrassed but like his I think I also. Of let me rephrase that it's not like I am not embarrassed about being unemployed but I felt like it is more important to have someone opened talking about an employment during this time is then hiding it nukes which by the way depending on when the listener you're listening are listening to this episode this is being recorded. Just you know we're Cova distill around and it's impacting hiring left and right and so there's there's. Many. Other reasons and I I agree with you. You shouldn't. You shouldn't feel bad about that and you're definitely taking action towards not staying in that situation for too long. So so Kudos to you for that Vero, we've reached the end of the interview. Thing I'd ask you is to share to tell the listeners how and where they can. They can find you online and and maybe yet shared the the your your Youtube Channel You are l., or your twitter handle twitter handle. WHICHEVER PLATFORMS, Iran So my PhD copy time Youtube is just by YouTube dot com slash PhD coffee Italian. I'm also on Instagram at coffee time apparently a Lotta PhD student now. Love Instagram. So I have to get back on that I'm also on twitter on person no name Vera s Chen. So, you could find me there on twitter. So unlinked in swell if your recruiter and interested in hiring marine science transitioning medical writer. Thank you. Excellent. You mentioned Lincoln Yam. Linked in is also VP as Chen. I. Didn't realize what be as means until I come to America and that's my initial. So I couldn't change so. Well. No. No you started watching your videos the know you're not vera. Thank you so much for having come to to. This zoom interview. Thank you so much for sharing all these. Experiences that you've had in what you're going through right now then I'm like I said I, you're taking all the right actions to eventually land a job that you like that will fulfill you and. Let's keep. Let's keep talking and and maybe we'll have an update interview sometime. So thank you so much for for being you to the young pope. Peachy. Thank you. It means a word to be on this show and I've wished a very now we're come back for another update. was, really, happy Vera. Accepted my invitation because it's not easy to talk about uncertainty. And especially from a position like hers of being in between Jobs And I'm really grateful for all she shared. From the details of her journey to the motivation behind starting her youtube channel. Thanks for having listened to the end. And now as promised, it's but guest discovery time and this week I'm bringing you a very funny sci comedy podcast Petri dish and another great podcast covering all aspects of the PhD Life Wise Grad Rolla tape. Nine. CANNABINOID genetics. Dogs this Petri dish? We're a science podcast exploring complex subjects with clarity and evil. Joined the Scientific Revolution Join Petri dish dropping every Monday on inker dot FM Slash Petri dish. Hey. Sanjay Williams `Visegrad. This is the goal to podcasts for everyone interested currently stuck. Recently, exited the academic world. So it's were students and students at life. Here we'll discuss topics ranging from comet academic. Find jobs to navigating the imminent midlife crisis I call it the podcast motivated procrastinators. So if you're a super driven but cat team to get the car started, this podcast is definitely free. And that's it for this week. Thank you for being a true fan. I'll be expecting you next week with another great guest. So happy listening and happy sharing. Thanks for listening to another episode of the Papa Peach podcast. Head over to pop each dot com for show notes in for more food for thought about non-academic Post Grad careers. I'll always be happy to share inspiring stories, new ideas and useful resources here on the PODCAST. So make sure you subscribe on Itunes or wherever you get guests to always keep up with the discussion and to hear from our latest guests.

PhD US Youtube France Vera s Chen professor Hong Kong medical writer America facebook twitter Papa PhD David Mundus researcher South Carolina PhD Lincoln California Papa Peachy Steve Era
Being a PhD Researcher and an Entrepreneur With Jessica Steinberg

Papa Phd Podcast

53:17 min | 6 months ago

Being a PhD Researcher and an Entrepreneur With Jessica Steinberg

"Do you have a business idea based on your research consultancy or detect project. Well you're not alone lot of beach. Researchers out there have plans to become their own bosses rather than getting a job when they're done with their degree in today's episode. You'll hear jessica steinberg's recount of her experience. translating knowledge. She gained working on her thesis into a sustainable business. Dad has always said create a personal board of directors and that could be someone from an academic perspective and it could be a friend again. That might always be there for your mental health. Because i think that's a really important thing especially with a phd but it could also be people from the business world diversify their experiences their insight get people. That won't always agree with you because they need to challenge you and so that when you do you have questions. Like what do i charge. Or what would be the next step to move. From the starting point to really put myself on a pedestal. Next in an elevate my services for example get people around you. That can really guide you. Welcome to pop up. Each day with david mendez the podcast where we explore careers and life after grad school with guests who have walked the road less traveled and have unique stories to tell about how they made their place in the world of constantly evolving rules. Get ready to go off the beaten path and hop on for an exciting new episode of the phd. Welcome to another episode of papa. Each today on papa. Pg we have jessica steinberg jessica. How change happens. At the intersection of normality and unfamiliarity a cyclical process that is the twenty first century embodiment of revolutions evolution. She's a phd student. At the university of oxford researching the process of policymaking through the lens of cannabis legalization and commercialization jessica is setting precedents for emerging markets to refuse systematic replication. Her policy work takes place as an official delegates for cannabis related meetings held at the un and at the who jessica's academic work led to commercial opportunities. She founded and he's the managing director of international cannabis consultancy the global sea and co founder of a women's empowerment organization cultivating a space for women. Illegal cannabis industry entourage network. Jessica is head of community as ohana. Cbd a plant based self care. Skincare company she speaks globally about her research and work as well as the charity. She founded when she was thirteen. Years old gable giggles so jessica. I'm super super curious. Super happy to have you on on the show and super curious to hear your story to to hear about all these things that you're doing you are working towards your phd. So welcome to papa peachy you so much. It's a pleasure to be here. And i'm really excited to get into some of these topics so i think the first thing we we could do is because i kind of gave a short bio that in a nutshell kind of tells the story but Thinking of the listeners. Out there that are that are now Tuning in i'd like you just to quickly talk a little bit about a you about the science you do about how you got there and a you know about where you are today in terms of research and graduate school. Fm elliott so. I'm currently in going into my fourth year of mike. I'm in the right up. Process at the moment working towards confirmation and i've been doing academic work within the legal cannabis market for about five years. Which started with my undergraduate degree at the university of saint andrews and first and foremost apologist. So i'm within the center for socio studies which is in the faculty of law. But i am not a lawyer. My background is in anthropology and international relations and so my current project and the research really brings into play the global supply chain of the cannabis market alongside in anthropological methodology. So it's enough nagara fees and that's how nice work was conducted and but it's also questioning the legal processes inveigle aspects within. What's going on in the legal reform. So it brings in social aspects and logical wiegel international relations. Things like that. And i ended up in the industry by way of my family. Back in two thousand fifteen when they actually moved to colorado for pursuits in a job. Opportunity there and my is. My dad is in the industry and was conducting fieldwork. Then but i think one of the things that has kind of come to play how. My research unfolded is a motivation. That again links back to my family which is through my mom because in twenty six sorry twenty seventeen. It was the first year my phd ahead already. Done loads. afield fieldwork around but it was a very stigmatized topic and professors in different universities weren't really interested in taking it on legalization. In some ways the g seven countries like canada. That hadn't really been a thing yet so very much. Stigmatized access to medical cannabis was in ongoing process and my mom at that time was diagnosed with breast cancer stage zero and to clarify for everyone listening. She's totally okay now. But part of the motivation within my at the time was a privilege on my hand to understand that i had access and i was interviewing some of the leading cannabinoid researchers particularly for breast cancer on the flip side back in colorado. Because my dad was in the industry he had access to some of the highest quality cannabis for medical patients and as a medical patient. She had the privilege to be in a legal environment where she could actually get that type of medicine at that time. It really clicked. That what i'm doing is a larger event itself it's larger than contribution to the academic literature which was a huge huge lack. But that i could actually have an impact in a legacy that could go beyond and to realize my privilege to the the researchers conducting such studies or medical side and from the patient side. it was connecting. All of those dawson for it became something that was always at the forefront of my studies and it was. I always came back to the uae during this in the first place and so can invest. Sounds like a funny topic at times. It's something that because of its medical value because of my family and the state that we had together through this process i think is very important quite a serious topic nonetheless. It is very current news for current topic. It's it's very. Polarizing can be polarizing and taboo in different communities and different cultures and countries but It it is very interesting in the fact that you were living in your family through that particular situation must have definitely made it much more fulfilling to be working at. It may be but also have a sense of mission while while the doing your research now One thing that i was reflecting upon. Maybe i i don't think i don't. I don't know if this really cheap how this connects but It's rare there's enough of the people. I know that someone at years old starts Starts I don't know if it's a business or foundation or whatever Can you talk about that and does this loop back to to what you're doing today is a is a great question because every People that know me look give a giggles. Got into cannabis. They thought that was inherently linked. Because they felt that it might give a ball. Giggles like you would light of bowl of candidates. It would give you the giggles cute name though but so give. Giggles is actually a charity five. Oh one c. Three inch registered in the us in has been for many years now It doesn't feed in shoe. My academic course the professional consultancy work. That i do or the women's empowerment work do entourage or the community engagement with alana but it does and it has probably influenced the way i see the world and how i brought in entrepreneurial aspect into the process of the phd at south given giggles. Right now our mission is to help individuals do they love to do in order to achieve what they aspire to do something that i have always personally followed one of my mottos in things that i saw when life is you can create opportunities in order to create and make those become possibilities. And so it's how do you connect the dots in a certain way but used passionate thread to get you. There and so goes doesn't relate to the research itself but the values lessons and some of the obstacles i experienced back dan feed into my mindset in my approach nowadays i i made the same reflection that you mentioned friends Made an i. I thought thirteen. It was probably not to do with cannabis but i think it is interesting to see how having had that experience and i really like to talk about that today. I think I think i. I understand what you working on in your research today. But what i really want to talk about is about this thing of being in a phd and giving yourself the challenge but also the space to develop a enterpreneurial projects around it And the reason it's interests me is because A lot of the people. I talk with It also depends of course. On what domain you doing peachy in but they didn't see during the phd that they had the space this This opportunity to develop other. Let's say a sizable projects. Besides there and you know because seeing what seeing you and seeing what you do. I imagine there's other people who are in the same context as you are and who may be could could use some inspiration on how to bring to life some project that they have you know in the notes somewhere. I really loved to talk about about that. How you navigated that. That you know that That journey of saying okay. I'm doing this academic work. I have the since. I've been i've had Since thirteen i've had this interesting in organizing larger things to do something else on the side of my phd and create value in a way. So can you talk a little bit about And and we we've heard we know what motivated it. I think i for me. I i can see the threat you know from what you told but yeah can you just talk a little bit more about the process and about maybe difficulties you had to deal with And and and also the solutions and and You know the the winning strategies that you may have found along the way definitely. I think where i would start is acknowledging that when you're doing and again this might be different between the social sciences in some other sciences but from my experience during a phd you become the expert and that knowledge is incredibly valuable. The difference between the academic world in the corporate world for example might be financial behind it. But there's also something about time and the practicality of contract and for me as an anthropologist is always connected the dots meaning. I was in the field. I was becoming an observing the participants quote unquote that i was working alongside and some more or less. I became a cannabis. Professional y was collection my data so it was connecting those dots to understand that. If i'm already in the field. And i am a phd student. Whose more or less becoming an expert on this specific topic in the next thing to do is put that into practice rather than only putting it into writing on paper And for some people that is their ultimate goals get publications and things like that for me. I'm not staying in academic world. So how could i use my phd. As a way to hugh contribute to the next steps of my personal journey but also the next steps of this professional development. And i think the challenges alongside that. We're very abundance. Ask particularly because of my topic. It was already stigmatized. So facing that stigma with truth and people saying okay. You're studying cannabis for example and you consume cannabis yourself. He must being Like incredibly lazy. Jeff like that yet when i back home in colorado nego stay i am as productive has ever even fans june cannabis and so i think facing the truth is important but but that's your question about how to go about the process. Is i think you have to be willing to take the risk and make the time in a phd as it is for. Most people is very flexible. Time management setup but you have to be quite disciplined with how you do that and if you can find a place from passion than it doesn't really seem like you're working. I'm but when you can get the value as it is a monetary value for project that you're working on and you can see how that is then leading to a client whether that is an individual in for noor of brand that's launching or even if you're working with governments because i have some colleagues on a consulting basis however you can see your work put into practice is very meaningful because in my experience. There's been a huge huge disconnect between the academic world and the reality of the world outside the university walls and the raises the question for me. Do you have support from your supervisor for this one thing. You're in england. Phd's this three years right. There's you'd have three years to do it so for sure. I understand when you say you need to be very disciplined because you can't extend it for two three four five six but but you're just going back did you. Do you have supports on your projects from from your supervisor or supervisors. Normally i would say actually. Phd's tehran like three to five years depending on your program so there could be more time flexibility and my supervisor was supportive of me. Being the best anthropologist. I could be which meant being into field and if that meant working on projects that could be to data collection than so be it. But she wasn't actually the one that kind of helps me create that idea by any means the reason it really did come about was because i had a number of people outside colleagues of mine asking just for need to give endless amount of information. I was like this is nonsense academic brain drain. So that's why released started pushing it from consulting side. The other side was. Because i had being one of the few females in a room at the conferences i was attending and again is a new emerging nascent market to have gender inequality was unacceptable my opinion in terms of the mentorship that i had elsewhere dad actually came about from people back home in the us and one of my first mentor is really who. He's been incredibly supportive from a research perspective and has always known that i've had this fine entrepreneurial spirit was my physics teacher mr which is crazy because i don't do anything related to physics. Nowadays mr timman helped me actually create a university level research project back high school. This tied to give a book giggles. Because i was looking at the effects of laughter a within some elementary school kids and it was a psychologically Psychology study at an with a ethics review board that it was the first time in my high school actually had it because mr german push them to set it up because he's like if you're going to be doing a research project you need to go under and go through. The process of all of the steps does at that point of my academic career guests of senior in high school. I was seventeen. Eighteen years old. Where i realized what research means. Impact can have but also that if it doesn't exist that doesn't mean you can't do it and so from a perspective that meant people aren't studying cannabis but that doesn't mean i can't cannabis. German entrepreneurial point of view it man if no one's doing that probably the gap in the market huntsman. Definitely installed that into my head. And kind of the way that i work. I slow and being really rigid with how you do carry out research as well and then translating that into practice and yeah so he was definitely one of us. It's i think it mentors when they come about in in your life can be very important in. Maybe they just talk to you and say something that really you know that really resonates with you and changes the way you think about. Think about something but to have the support of someone you respect to you know going into a process that you haven't ever gone before like creating this. This is scientific project must have been really really cool now in terms of entrepreneurship. Well i understand. And i you know i'm from what you're saying that you probably. You probably have a people to muddle from in your family. But i i'm wondering apart from that whether you also went to look for either a training or mentorship l. Swear did that you know to know how did you can transform. And i don't know if it's the right word but yourself from a petri student into a pd student entrepreneur. Did that did it. Take some training some reading up. Or you know chatting with that and asking him for for His his input yeah. It was a process of ongoing learning. And i would say that it is still. I am undergoing so a big help definitely was my family for my mom. My dad my brother. It always been big cheerleaders of mine. And when i have crazy ambitious ideas. They've been someone that will always say. I believe in you however we can support you even if that's literally just sitting on my shoulder saying go go jessica. It's the first support support network rights family. Yeah yeah and but in terms of the practicality of how to get it done thousand has a lot of trial and error to be honest and it was almost take into you become it so a great example of this is i didn't know what to charge for my first day or my first project rate at so i called someone in my family. I believe i called a friend who i knew is in the business banking side of things than i called a consultant Just to come to get it's like market research like that's what we do is pbs. Translate that into your your next job phase. If you will nightside wants the going rate for a consultant. I had every flight. Two hundred fifty pounds of words but then they said based on your experience having at that time is like four three or four years of research you could probably charge x amount and they gave me a dollar amount and then i called the client in. I was like okay. This is what i m going to charge produce british client and they go that circuiting work for us. They went down by hundred pounds. Knows like okay but in my mind. I was like But they went down by one hundred pounds. That's actually exactly what i was asking for the dollar amount so my advice got one was always an high because it's a negotiation at the end of the day. If you think about it from a drafting perspective you're constantly working back and forth and from an entrepreneurial client perspective it is ongoing negotiation and to never sell yourself short. Because you know that you're going to put in the hard work and you can prove yourself bear. And if it doesn't work for that they're going to be flat out intel. You just make sure that you have a justification for why you're what you're charging for example. So that's kind of howard. Collect some of the information. I would ask around from different people. i i think a lot of it also was. I had an experience of launching a non off at such a young age. So i kind of understood that i needed to register company and i just dived really deep into the internet at times and i would say my brother. My dad definitely are to people that i will just call up in a very honest conversation and they can put me in my place when i need to bring bringing back down to earth in ground me event. My dad has always had create a personal board of directors and that could be someone from an academic perspective It could be a friend again that my always be there for your mental health. I think that's a really important thing especially with the but it could be people from the business world so just fed personal gordon directors diversify their experiences their insight get people. That won't always agree with you because they need to challenge you and so that when you do you have questions. Like what do i charge. Or what would be the next step to move from the starting point to really put myself on a pedestal. Next elevate my services for example. Get people around you. That can really guide you and yeah informally right. It's you just think of people in your network who could okay. This person would be really good to talk about this. This person like you said the friend that helps you keep balanced in your mental health but in an informal setting right. It's not talking about an actual okay. No contracts needs to be signed. Nothing like that. You don't need a nondisclosure agreement. it's it's very informal. But i think it's knowing that you can trust those people around is really important regardless of whether you have a personal board of directors or not one thing jessica saying he's always true having people around you who can champion new council you with whom you can brainstorm and who can challenge. You are precious help in life and in particular in graduate school. I really hope that some of the guests that i've brought you in almost two years of papa. Peachy are part of your career exploration board of directors because in the show of each episode. Leave you links to not only thank them but also reach out to them if you have any questions or if you just want to follow up on what we talked about in the interview. If you want to reach out to jessica for example you'll just have to go to papa. Beach dot com forward slash. One zero one and you'll find all the links there and if you feel that papa. Phd has helped you in any way in figuring out your post-speech career and you want to support the show simply go to patriot dot com for slash papa peachy and become a patron for the equivalent of coffee per month. This way you'll be helping me bring new and better content each week to those who are still trying to find their path and now let's go back to my conversation with jessica steinberg and super interesting and i really want to keep talking a little bit. What entrepreneurship and specifically the question of Being being a woman Entrepreneur and a woman in the scene. The male dominated domain. Which i feel that. That's what was your the experience you had at the outset but you mentioned mental health. You just you just talked about how it's important to have someone in this board of directors who can be your you know the the your go-to person to keep you grounded to to to keep you imbalance and i'm just thinking of your day day. You are working towards you. Yeah you mentioned you're in the fourth year rights go into the fourth yes. I don't know when you're going to. What are you considering writing and finishing. But you still have a lot on your plate With all these projects. And the question that i have for you is what do you do. to Apart from having good friends right but what are your strategies or your tactics to stay balanced and to stay healthy You know Be physically but also mentally having to deal with all these moving parts. Yeah this is something that. I'm constantly you revisiting because i think balancing amused is changes very frequently especially from a female perspective and what's going on with our cycles so i i happen to my cycle quite often to be honest because it will change brain frog and clarity energy level but on a regular basis i have a routine warning in an evening routine that really sets up success in my opinion so in the morning i the first thing i do is kind of like this linda nil period before i wake up and i'm remembering my dream and then i have my journal right next year. I write down my dream if i can remember it. Never remember my dreams. I've always been my sister used to be like that. I never was able. I was so jealous all my life. Okay so so you start coming down from From the sleep That sleep period and and writing up your dreams that it's taking notes on that. Yes that's that's the first separately my phone will be off. My phone is always on airplane mode overnight. I write three things that i'm grateful for in the morning. I have a process of like my bed. Go brush my teeth with my left. Hand my non dominant hand. Retrain my brain dead. I go straight into the light. I think it's the best way to wake up. And then actually with the ohana products. There's a day serum that we use. And i use it for after australia's and stuff like that but to actually bring myself into self affirmations and some form of evangelization Visualizing myself at this time being called dr j. steinberg for example or having a goal about publishing a book and seeing myself on stage speaking about the book and other things that i visualized that our goals of mine and actually getting married. So that's in the morning. And then i do. Some form of mobility or movement. Kind of get myself activated. And then i might infer the But in you really stepping it up level by level. I really like it and i really like the kind of the gratitude journal. I'm not doing that. But it's really something that i recently read about and Yeah i'm sure. It kind of gives this positivity and this the positive outside on the day that's to come cool on the gratitude side. It's something that i start my day with but it's also high end night day so it's three things in the evening that i'm very grateful for and then i have three things that i need to our hope to accomplish in the day after they could be very simple task. Something from reviewing a draft for a chapter or you remind myself to be kind to others something like the spectrum really varies on the type of task. But there's always three casts and so then in the morning. When i pick up over by journal like i said it's the first thing i see before i'm writing. The first thing. I see are those three tasks that i want to get done so i'm already thinking about where my day is going. Yup recoup is and then yes in the evening while. i'm practicing chinese. Because it's a language light picked up in high school. So that's what my phone like. I'm not talking to anybody. People know they've proven you to get a hold of me. They can call me or something but that's again like activating the brandon In a different way some form of meditative relaxation into sleep which were allowed smith like i'm falling The soviet the yoga need-we type thing your very very cool. No and i think you know this this I'm sure this really allows you to recharge your batteries overnight. The in an optimal way. And and i think that for people out there still in graduate school some sort of routine some sort of almost ritual like this will be helpful to you because i think we we are being like within our organism likes to kind of know what to expect. And i've i've met people who had trouble sleeping order like invasive ideas and these these types of Like ramping up in the morning and cooling down in the evening for sure Is going to be to be helpful in in the great ideas. Yeah now i think what. I'd really like to talk about. And i think we've covered some interesting aspects of the practical. Your you know what you do in your day to set up your day to finish your day. But maybe i think one thing i'd like to talk about and i'd like you to share about his time management and and how then once you you you know kicked off your day how you then prepare and and are able to do all the things you have to do for your and for the other things you're involved in because i think it's something that i for example myself would have liked to have learned more about or known more about when i was going through my. Yeah definitely so familiar from the perspective. One thing that i've started within the center and it's been going on now since march and we're continuing it. This term is a three hour reading writing working studying session. So it's three sessions of forty five minutes of uninterrupted work in the fifteen minutes break and this is a common practice for people in general not just for students but if you can dedicate kind of block out that amount of time knowing all unification's are turned off your phones in another room you're tabs of social media are forgotten about just totally non distracted forty five minutes what we have found from people that are joining these sessions. Is those three hours the most productive hours of the day if not the week if it's the only session that they join so that's one thing that we do that has worked really well and it's interesting because you might think. Oh well it's a group of people they'll be chatting but i imagine that the fact that everyone has this vibe and this this motivation makes it work in the end and makes everyone be fulfilled at the end of the work that they that they have accomplished. How does that how. How's the group that does the group dynamic help in that precise The precise model that you grip dynamic is health from an accountability perspective on the one hand were doing over zoom. So you have the faces. It's like those lurking is looking around making sure that year during work because you can obviously see some light goes away from the computer for ten minutes like the judgement by but i'm the accountability on the other hand is actually really helpful because at the beginning of each session we say what we're working on what we hope to accomplish by the end of the third session so by the end of the third session check in again and we say how is it going. Why did you get stockhow. Maybe have you come across or experienced this in your work and how to help you and things like that and so again. It's kind of similar to what i do in the evening with that ritual. It's like alan. yeah. I think sometimes journaling. Yeah and just saying it out loud sometimes makes yourself more accountable because it becomes that much more real and you can see it and you can question it. And then you're holding yourself accountable. Keep getting that done. And even if you don't get done what you needed to get. John i think you can reflect on that in a better way to readjust your time management for the following sessions or you're following work that's coming ahead in so it's always about learning in growing with him not processed not never being too hard on yourself as well because it's sometimes what we're working on takes longer than expected and that's totally fine because quality over quantity sometimes so. Yeah that's definitely one thing that has been very helpful from a academic side time management on the other side is google. Calendar is my best friend than i will block out. When i'm working on certain projects i will color coded sometimes to make sure that i'm working on a on a staffer entourage things and then again a very visual person so i have different likes to do list. I guess within each of those categories from personal. I have oxford. I have a honda entourages. And it's kind of prioritized in the time that i need to get done patten but then also i think sometimes. It's about filling your colleagues. And i talked about this that sometimes the busier are in the more that you still your days the more productive you can be and i find being busy helps me stay active on accomplishing what i need to get done. Which is not to say. I don't procrastinate. But i have this weird term that my friends always make fun of me for using but i have quote unquote productive procrastination. Where like. I might have a documentary in the background because i love documentaries than nine. I'll be looking for different. Grants to help fund my studies. Or i think that's high reached out to you as on a productive procrastination process. Podcasts would seem very interesting just different things that are actually going to again build professional and personal growth and development. It's still procrastination. I'm not getting done what i need to get done. But there's some form of productivity in there in the long run and so that's kind of how i've gone out and sometimes you can you can if you've spent a of time on one thing your your brain you you yourself may be a bit I say yeah The kind of burnt on on that specific topic. And if you plan fifteen minutes doing something else then you can come back with fresher. The fresh look for sure. Yeah we we reach out to me on link in and i'd really like your your point of view on linked in for for graduate students. You know is it. Is it a a great a good platform to be on. Is it not. What's your take on that. I'd i'd be curious to hear what what what you have to say about that. I think for academics. Twitter is the go-to social media. Because it's where a lot of academics push articles in opinions and stuff like that linden definitely professionals face. I is one of my favorite forms of social media. Because of the commercial side of the things that i'm working on more professionally and it's really useful to keep in touch with colleagues in that way and kind of have an insight into what's going on in different industries in sectors. But i i recommend it to everybody honestly. I did something that you should spend. Time kind of crafting your profile and having an online presence there is quite important. There's also quite a few groups that you can join the i'm part of different anthropological groups in social sciences for cannabis researchers and so there are some academic spaces as well but i think it is a useful way to connect to people knowing that there is a form of professionalism rather than this informal relationship that might have question marks and dot dot. Dot's around it. I've had people comment with me that in some countries when you are a phd you get a salary in and it makes you yourself feel like i'm a professional. I'm a. I'm learning as i go but you know i've studied all these years now i'm doing my phd. And my institution looks at me at as a what no one of the workers of the institution so it's logical for me to create a linked in profile a professional profile but then there's other cultures other countries where it's pretty. It's very much the look of. Oh you steal a student. And i think but i like you saying i think no one. It's it's my opinion but no one is you loses by creating linked in profile and starting to build it and maintaining it even if it's just like you're saying to be part of groups that are very interesting very dynamic. What i find is that there's there's the discussions are always very. There's no nonsense and often you get in contact with really really cool people so anyway that that. That's why i was asking. Because i've seen i've seen what linked in can do and And i was wondering what's what's what was happening with with. Phd's stations but of course because of your profile. It does totally make sense that you're on there. I mean to your point for the people. That say i'm a student and be on. I would come back and say. I think we're always a student in life. Even after my i will always get student and if you can use it as a way to learn if even if you are in the stereotypical definition of what. A student means from university high school. Maybe highschoolers aren't on it but if you are in university you are a student. I think it's a really interesting place to learn to engage network and again to actually go to one of your earlier questions about mentors one of my mentors again. Non academic related his. Name's tommy spaulding and of the things that he taught me from a very young age. Signed that when i was seventeen was about the importance of relationships and maintaining them treating them from a very equal respectful tolerant accepting way and the more that you make time for people the more that you show up in you listen and take yourself out of it and you lead with your heart. That's really wear. This is coming from and if you can use this is going to be a odd way to go back to link jin but if you can use link As a way to build relationships and again to your point about or my point earlier about personal board of directors and how you really still your space with people that you're learning from that are challenging you. If lincoln is a space to do that by all means take advantage of the resources that are in front of you. And i don't think an age should the agenda shouldn't limit that it's just a platform minutes how you choose to go about using it No i totally agree and and again it's something that's sort level of you know you can be free beacon also pay have been more services but just what you get for. Free unlinked in in terms of networking is huge. And again the fact that it's very like i was saying nonsense very businesslike in the way people interact cetera. It's it's a very good one i We're reaching the time limit. I've given myself the the episode. But i'd like to talk about the network and Because i'm always interested in seeing how things are evolving in terms of You know of of women being able to go into entrepreneurship without barriers and And go into new spaces And find a voice there. Can you just talk a short minute on that. Yeah entre came about because there is a lack of women in into space and it kinda fell on meaning it. The cannabis industry fell on twentieth century. Gender structure is amongst other social structures. And there's a a stat that goes around that two percent of all of these see venture capital funds go to women and the rescuers to men so from a startup perspectives. That again is completely unacceptable when you have been new nascent market where there's a lack of women meaning i can count the number of women in the room on one or two hands that funding isn't gonna go to the women just flat out and so there's just to have a space to engage with like men Like minded individuals where you have that ally ship immunity building things like that are really important. Because it means that you are valued for being there that you have the chance to show up to learn to explore that you can collaborate with other individuals. And i think the cannabis industry has been doing a good job particularly of moving towards more gender balance but there are still quite few issues with that and it's not a sector specific issue. It's a global issue that we just need to base and entourage doing our part by hosting different webinars throughout covert at least in that was in person to give women the tools that they need to excel because one of the things that we found is lack of confidence to actually get there and i think one of the reasons i have been successful in entrepreneurship journey is because i kind of own it in a sense that i walk in with confidence because i've been rejected. A number of times failed so many times that i really don't care nice. Visit the biggest obstacle to anything is myself in my own mentality. So confidence is huge for women that had been part of our network and to give them the tools that they need the education that support the community. Collaboration it goes on an anon- bats really where that movement and can start to build and we have seen an increase in. The number of people are attending our events and let alone other cannabis conferences around the world during the end ease physically. So it's it's a work in progress for sure but i. I don't think it's only for colleagues and the candidates face. It's something that we have to work on on a daily basis and that really comes down to even corporations Valuing women where they belong. And if you're an academic having that no academic brain drain but valuing the brains where they're needed and stuff like that kind of every confidence to say seventy so. I had a guest in season one and she mentioned a similar organization here in canada like for for entrepreneur. Women globally not in a specific domain. Yeah i think it's important that these these types of organizations exist to kind of help the scales get closer to to a certain equilibrium Jessica actually good segue is if people if listeners out there women who who have enterpreneur ideas. Want to find a entourage. Where do they find the find entourage. And also where do they find. You want to reach out to you or find any of your projects online. Yes oh entourage you can find. It said entourage network l. Dion that is on instagram art. That's our primary mode of communication or on lincoln or just entourage network but we spelled e. n. t. capital. Oh you our age is lower. Kits and or our website is our entourage network dot com are. You are first and then personally please connected me. On lincoln. My name is justin steinberg And otherwise more than happy for people to reach out via oxford email which is on my oxford bio perfectly. I i'll i'll put all of that in In the in the show notes and and people will be able to reach directly than jessica. Great pleasure talking with you and Again it's something that It's the first time i've had the chance of talking specifically about the whole. The whole current Almost situation or developments in the cannabis industry because things have really changed in the last few years and it was really interesting to talk about being a woman. I you know. Although we didn't talk so much about it. I think a lot of what we talked kind of reflected in onto that being a young woman in this domain I also found it really really interesting to to have you. Share your your Your routines your daily routines of Winding up in the morning winding down in the evening but also the that's the strategies in texas. You've that you've Applied during the day to kind of make things working in and make the most of your days so it was a great conversation. I'm i think the listeners are going to have It's going to be a treat for the listeners to to hear what you shared here so thank you so much. Yeah thank you so much. You've asked very interesting intriguing questions and accredited absolute pleasure chatting with you and that's week for this episode of papa phd. If you enjoyed my conversation with jessica steinberg and appreciate all the practical tips and advice. She shared go to the episode show notes and follow the link. That's there to thank her and also very important. Share this episode with the friend and now for the podcasts discovery segment. I present you curiosity cake. And the lonely pipette. I was always one of those curious kids. I had the chemistry set microscope a telescope. I would take toys apart to see how they worked. And now that. I'm a grown up. I still have that huge sense of curiosity you two are not all who was a curious kid thing. Curiosity cake is made for you. I'm your host leader leany. Join me as i talked to the best minds from academia anau swear bringing you accessible and engaging conversations across a wide range of topics with no prior knowledge required. I'll be asking questions. Such as can nuclear fusion become a viable source of sustainable clean. Energy is possible to korea careers that fit our interests and personalities and haiku. We know how to eat. Y was so much conflicting nutrition information. You can enjoy a slice of curiosity kicked by subscribing on your favorite podcast app or by the website. Curiosity kicked khuda uk. All you need is a cup of tea and a four are working in research trying to make the best science orbiter. Where are you a team. Leader research paws dog. Phd student another maiden science. Could you imagine one place where you can see firing. Well the good news for you. We've just found what you're looking for. I everybody my name is jonathan baseline and welcome. Come to be. Don't change and that's it for this week's episode of papa peachy. Thanks for listening. Thanks for sharing and see you next week. Thanks for listening to another episode of the a phd. Podcast head over to papa. Pge dot com for show notes in for more food for thought about non-academic post grad careers. I'll always be happy to share inspiring stories new ideas and useful resources. Here on the podcast. So make sure you subscribe on itunes or wherever you get your guests to always keep up with the discussion and to hear from our latest guests.

jessica jessica steinberg david mendez jessica steinberg jessica international cannabis consult global sea and co Fm elliott university of saint andrews center for socio studies colorado breast cancer mr timman ohana university of oxford papa peachy gable linda nil
Rethinking Higher Ed With Eric James Stephens

Papa Phd Podcast

51:58 min | 9 months ago

Rethinking Higher Ed With Eric James Stephens

"Hi there and welcome to the last papa peachy interview of twenty twenty this week. I'm bringing you my conversation with eric. James stevens founder of change hired a platform. Where in the summer of twenty twenty being unemployed. He set out to help each understand their value. Through livestreamed events and workshops that ended up bringing many thought leaders into the discussion and having over two hundred fifty registered. Attendees with him. I discussed the pressure. Covert has brought on the higher education space. And the change. These pressure means for considering their career options. Today understand that what you can do with the experience that you have is amazing and there are people who want to hire amazing people. You cannot go into that situation saying listen. I have a phd. I have a master's degree therefore you should hire me. That's that's not what we should be doing at all michigan like. Hey this is what. I did. Turn my phd. Welcome to pop up. Each day. With david mendez the podcast where we explore careers in life after grad school with guests who have walked the road. Less traveled have unique stories to tell about how they made their place. In the world of constantly evolving rules get ready to go off the beaten path and hop on for an exciting new episode of papa phd. Welcome to this new episode of pop each t and today we have eric james stevens who is the founder of higher higher higher higher read. It's kind of a tongue. Twister and change higher ed and also thousand plateaus consulting. Llc his organization's goals are to highlight the value of higher. Ed workers as they migrate to industry government and nonprofit jobs outside of academia during this foundational shift in the landscape of higher education. Exposed by the covid pandemic. Eric sees opportunity for change. Welcome to papa pt. Eric thank you so much. Dave and i'm really happy to be here. Thank you same here. I love your project. I i love that in this moment of uncertainty for a lot of people and we we. I think we were probably going to talk a little bit about dealing with uncertainty in this conversation that you are Nurturing projects to to exactly to kind of work against this uncertainty and And help people who are thinking of transitioning thinking of their professional future. So yeah i would start just by letting you introduce ourselves to to the listeners and two yup to share a who you are what you studied and how you came to nurture and think of the projects that you're today. Yeah absolutely and i thank you so much for inviting me onto this like i approached you just like this really fun collaboration. I think that this is what. I've learned throughout my entire experience over the past few months. Is that these relationships like this are everywhere and so. I'm really grateful that we're able to be talking about this this morning. It's my pleasure. And one thing. If i must say one thing. Is that the the community of peach. Career exploration a career skills development either on twitter or lincoln and we met on link thin. I it's so vibrant and so positive so yeah i'm very grateful for that too i it's been it's been so much fun going through all of this and which is kind of i don't know if it's the right way to say that after you might hear my story and maybe it's not fun to kind of give you give you my background education wise. I finished my english literature degree. Master's degree from utah state university I didn't take any classes. I ended up taking a whole bunch of theory classes. Just because i loved learning how things work and that's what got me into rhetoric and communication. So my doctor agree is rhetoric communication and information designed from clemson university where i graduated in two thousand eighteen. We can talk about that experience to. There's a lot of fun from start to finish. I did my phd. In three years had a plan. I knew what i wanted to do when i finished. I had four or five offers Where i can kind of pick regular like anywhere from university of bahamas to a school. It was in riyadh saudi arabia industry gig in chicago and the job. I ended up taking which was a small school near might where my wife was in washington state. I like i had. I had a pretty good go of it like i. I did really well. I worked at central washington university for two years. And then i got laid off because of covid caveat. We were I was a writing teacher. I i worked specifically with the developmental writing program and the academic coaching program And kind of saw the writing on the wall that you're going to have a job and that was april this past year. Then this whole thing really started out as me trying to find that that vibrant community on lincoln just having it not be there the way that i thought that it was and so it turned into. I created a hashtag higher higher. Ed likes like. Hey this fun little event. I thought i was being clever. Making it on national. Best friend's day is june eight. And it's just like really like hey let's get together for an hour and connect And then in the united states. After george floyd was murdered and black lives matter erupted across the country. As like okay. I don't wanna take any attention away from that. I want to see what i can do to kind of embed these things that we're talking about and i just went to work and in less than two months that one hour plea went into a two day conference with fifty speakers. We had nine five stream panels. That are still available on youtube. They're not coming down on youtube. We had twenty workshops that were all Designed for academics for teachers to leave academia and education and from there. It's just been kind of going. I'm still unemployed and still trying to figure things out but this initiative higher higher ed in higher. Ed is kind of this this thing that i can't not do anymore. Yeah yeah and kind of shows the success of the event that people at this point you know like hiring freezes layoffs like you were mentioning. They are looking for answers and they're looking to to to network and to connect with people who might somehow you know. Tell dylan give them that information that will allow them to to go to the next step and find their next opportunity but it is. It is It is a difficult moment. And i have. I have other interviews that that the in this season of people who are in the same situation as you someone in france for example who also is trying to find an opportunity and it's really really difficult right now. Yeah absolutely now. I have a curiosity. You talked about rhetoric and so your your your doctorate. Yes red rhetoric and rhetoric in communication communication. And you said that you had one offer in industry. I'm really curious what that offer was based on the subject that you were it was doing. Instructional design light inside training and development for a home security system company. Okay very cool. It's interesting because I'm going to just quickly talk about it my first job after my. Phd was an agency communications agency for pharma and there were there was a bunch of of instruction designers in there was because they were doing workshops. learning modules. So now it makes sense now that you told me what it was at my okay in social design and it's a very very cool domain after the aug event i've started doing a weekly series of live discussions because it's kind of the genre that i really love last week. We interviewed chris kettering. Who is the author of leaving academia. But this week tonight. We're having a discussion with three career. Instructional designers on how to become an instructional designer. Like how do you translate teaching into learning and development. I'm just like that. Translation of skills is a lot of what we end up focusing on third goal. And that's going to be on youtube. That's gonna be livestream to facebook. Twitter and youtube eventually linked data once we get it going and everything will be housed on youtube. Like we won't be taking anything off. The episode will air some some weeks after we're recording it but for sure you're going to. You're gonna show me those. I'm going to include them in. The of these are very cool conversations and anything that can help people out there even discover a career that they didn't imagine existed is very very important today. Yeah absolutely i think. That's if there's one thing that i could tell. There's one thing that i could tell anybody out there who has an advanced degree right now. Is that your answer is not another degree. You have to understand that what you've already done is incredibly valuable but you need to be able to translate that value like a lot of career coaches talk about transferable skills and those are there but we'll talk about this as we go along this is. This is my specialty with rhetoric and communication. Who's your audience. You have this being their language yet to learn their lingo. You said you had some experience. Also in academic coaching. That's exactly but but for. I imagine that that also kind of brings brings to you this know-how of of of and we're going to definitely talk about those things Let's just still delve a little bit. on upc. You did it really fast. Compared for me took six seven years But how you know once you found you subject see clearly something you were passionate about. So that must have helped. What would you say determine that you were able to To conclude it so quickly and because this meant at what age were you when you when you were posting for jobs pretty young. Yeah i was two thousand eighteen like thirty two thirty two when i had finished man. I don't know if that's right. I don't know how my wife makes fun of billion for the time but anyway Yeah so so. What i and this is. I did the same thing. My master's program. I finished a semester early as well as like we kind of talked about this before we started on about the idea of mentors but if you are in the process of picking a mentor. This is what i did. And this is what i would recommend that people do is go your mentor with a plan. If you're going to your mentor to help them to ask them to help you create a plan. That's so much work that they don't want to have to do. I went for my master's degree. I went in and all of my colleagues the time they were going to professors and saying no. Hey can you work with me on this. I think i had this idea. I want to go this way. I went to my who's might now advisor or my mentor. Dot com kate at utah state university. And i said hey a joyce is. This is what i want to do this. I have done to get there. Would you like to be a part of this project. And she was like yes absolutely. And that's what i did with my other with my other committee members as well and then also with my dissertation committee. I went to my chair and said hey. This is what i want to do. Will you support me doing this. Because if you're not totally fine. I'll ask somebody else but like you have to own that this is your education and so for me what i did I knew i was looking for dissertation projects. I was just kind of like thinking about things i wanted to do. I think it was in the summer of two thousand fourteen or fifteen. I think it was. I listened to the last week tonight by john oliver and segment in prisons. And i was like wow. That's what that's i think what i want to do like. I knew that. I wanted to do a project that involved big data. I knew that i wanted to a project that involves technical communication because technical communication scholar. I knew that i needed a project. and so. I picked prisons. And as i said okay. This is my project I don't know what it is exactly. I know that. I'm going to gather a whole bunch of prison documents and going to big data analysis on them And so i had two years of course work. We is a pretty intense program. It's only a four year program to begin with. And so i was. We are taking three classes a quarter or three classes a semester while teaching two classes so that it was just. It was a lot to do. But i went into every class and i asked this question. How is this class going to help me with my dissertation every committee that i served on everything that i did i asked. How is this going to be on my cv. And how can i do it better. So by the time. I was two years of coursework i had a pretty rough draft of my dissertation of all the the theoretical background of all of all of that. And then what i had to do was collect data and then hang out with my friend ben webster and katie out of an logics who ended up co authoring one of my chapters with me. 'cause they are the ones that helped me write the code and do all these things For a long time. I felt bad about that. And people kind of gave me a crap for co authoring. That's like a bad thing to do and humanity is a little bit because in life sciences. It's just like no. I think the lot to learn from life sciences and so a it was just a great experience. That everything that i did. I made sure that it served more one purpose so it was either. I was getting a great for a class. And it was a chapter of my. Dissertation is getting a great for class and this was a conference presentation which is then going to go into a Publication everything. I did had a purse. don't wait until your course work to come up with an idea that that that is about better to do in the humanities sciences from what i'm learning but there's a lot of trial and error in the sense that makes it varies you can be lucky and have things work from day. One that say but it's rare. I say that like. I don't think that i put myself out there as the standard which i've been accused of doing like you're putting up this fall. Standard of what people can do But what i want to show is that people can can do a lot more than they think in a very short amount of time if you separate your value from academia like if you weren't the value who you are as a person and your own mental being and your other responsibilities you have in your life like i had my wife and my children have three kids now. I knew what i needed to do for them and that helped me meet to not be so indecisive and making decisions about my agree that makes a lot of sense and while having a family in i know this now makes you live through life in a different way and try to really make sure you're you're making the most of the time you have because you have time that you want to give to your family that's one this wanting also to right but it's true that anyone you know even if you're if you're single and you may be you started. Up because it was the next the next step in your academic track starting to find this mission kind of kind of emission from day one and having intention like live with intention definitely will help you and i think i feel that. That's what happened with your not happen. That's how you lived through it and that's why you you're able to to check those boxes. Yeah it was actually yeah. It was a pretty. It's a pretty intense experience. I actually think. I think that i'm working through some actually. Ptsd type experiences from my program. Because i was in a position where there was another cohort member. I had the i my personality is one that polarize people. People like me a lot or they don't like me a lot and she was one that did not like he got so bad to the point where i had asked my adviser and the director of the program. I said. hey. I can't do this anymore. Can i take these classes. Independent study we did a cohort model. Come like i can't skate in the classroom. Speak with this person And so i would end up just dreading doing anything. I look back at that three years of like of like lethargy right and then it came to the point where no i had to perform. I had to do what i needed to do. And so i just sit down and bang it out. So i really like what you said about like have intention from day to day but also for me. I recognize that. That data day part. I couldn't do as much because of my own mental health. So what i did was like. What do i need to do like like week to week. Kind of like thinking on that scale and then when you when you can't find moments to do your work make sure that those that our two or three hours blocked out in that day is is focused But as you're doing all of these things that number one thing is ever sacrifice your mental health. It is genuinely not worth it. No and you talk to you said something about a values -demia versus your values and it's true that it's easy when you start and tell me if you agree to copy and paste the values of accademia onto you because you you you look at academia something that's up there and that you kind of reach and you escaping me bet that you would meyer and somehow there's this psychological thing of okay you know. It's it's these values are maybe not exactly mind. But i aspire to that so i'm going to copy and paste them onto me and you. You're talking about mental health and this is pretty risky in terms of mental health. If you do this. And i'm thinking in my domain The main that i worked this means some people Start finding it's normal or try to make it normal that you work re day of the week you know and sundays saturdays and have sixty eighty hour weeks etc and it's normalized and and somehow also depending but some labs institutions do in some some personally do kind of nurture nurture this culture and i think it's such a very important point and i'm super happy that you mentioned mental health but it's your values are what does what's going to stay with you and keep your flow throughout your life absolutely crush them. You might be in trouble. Yeah and i would say that I love that phrase like copying pasting those those values on to you as you're trying to aspire to become that thing and i think one of the easiest things like one of the easiest ways that is faculty. Reinforce that false narrative is by saying well. It's a tough job market. Like gotta do what you gotta do without realizing. Did you know that there are other jobs than being professor. And just like being able to say like okay No matter how. And this is a common phrase. I've heard talking with a lot of people like no matter how much you love academia. I'm it's never going to love you back at never will like you always put in more than what it will give you and you have to like sincere like we have we have a whole nother panel That's coming up. That's all about like what academics can do to understand their time as a billable hour Like if you are worth a hundred dollars an hour which you probably are if you have a phd using to find the right value system And then at like. What is the return on investment on these things like these are these are like these are phrases that academics don't like to think about honestly because they do not understand value And so being able to save you know what. I don't want to spend eighty hours a week writing this article. That's gonna take two years to publish. That will take another year to review and then to get published to be read by maybe fifty people if you're lucky to What's the point yet. You really have to ask yourself. Why are you doing what you're doing like what is it like. It can't be well. this is just what i love. Is my passion. Like this is just what i need to do. That is the narrative that that means. It's a passion that means it's an unattainable value which means you can't put value on your time. So work eighty hours a week until this thing they can never actually get whereas if you say like no i have x. amount of time and i value this time and then you do what you need to. Do you accomplish what you need to accomplish. You know i have crossed. I have interviewed people in season one. Who archimedes and do have these valley and do live by the what you just said. The thing is there's there's a whole gamut of of people in academia but we're i think it really hurts is when they try to inculcate this 'cause they're in their tenure track career they they can decide this for themselves but to impose students who now we know only twenty percent of them at best going to tender strike careers but to impose his regimen on them. It's really really harsh before going back to the interview. I just want to let you know of a promotion offered that. I received for all of the peach listeners. If you need graphics or animations for your research or if you creating scientific content of any kind. Scientists studio reached out to me to offer ten percent off of any of the services from whiteboard animations script writing to social media management and conference launch packages to get the ten percent off. All you need to do is go to scientists dot studio with two ts. The link is in the show notes and use the promo code papa peachy in one word at checkout and now back to our interview. So welcome to part of my conversation with eric and We were talking in the other part one of this kind of disconnect or also of this this injustice. I want to say of wanting to not wanting but a of this tendency of from academia to impose Some some pretty harsh rules or values upon new candidates that arrive and We we talked about impact the impact of this on on mental health. And we know there's numbers out there that health issues in graduate. School are quite prevalent But in the second part. I really want to tap into a vault of knowledge that eric has been has been garnering literally with these panels that he's been He's been hosting. That are ongoing. There's panels and again. I'll share links it to to the the youtube channel in the show notes but eric yet thinking of the situation we have right now. All this uncertainty about jobs during times of of covid. What have you you know. What would you say from the conversations. You've had are things that really stand out in can help people out there today. So i've been kind of going back and forth about. Do i adopt the hashtag red or do i tag change higher. Like which one. Should i go. And i realized that the i can't focus just on one and the reason for that is because i think that there are two themes that have emerged from these conversations that i've been having with people. The first one in alignment with the idea of like job prospects is it. There are a lot of people who are going on the market right now. There are more people who don't know they're about to go on the job market right now. There's gonna be a lot of layoffs. Come december a lot of laos. Come in june. We saw at the beginning of september You emam hearst furloughed eight hundred fifty employees indefinitely or what is happening is that people are genuinely People are are afraid they don't know what to do. And that's and like also seeing that. I think it was according to the ceo of higher jobs. Jonah keri in a podcast that he was on lately said that this time last year there's been a fifty eight percent reduction of jobs across higher at a. It's going to be hard. People are will be rejected. You can not personalized that rejection. You have to understand that it's not you. That is the problem because if you do think it's you that's the problem like why am i not getting job going back to the mental health. We were talking before it's just going to deteriorate you're going to have depression you're going to be anxious understand that what you can do with the experience that you have is amazing and there are people who want to hire amazing people. You cannot go into that situation saying listen. I have a phd. I have a master's degree therefore you should hire me. That's that's not what we should be doing at all. Should be like. Hey this is what. I did. Turn my phd. I'd kind of like the higher higher ed aspect of of really teaching people. I think everybody knows that they have value. Right industry knows that academics have value. I mean they hire people from educational a time that these people that we've taught They just don't get it though. Like i remember having a conversation with my brother he does international business stuff and i was like yeah. This is what i'm doing. He's like listen man. I don't understand academics. i don't think i ever will. We have to understand that the type of academic that is coming into industry now versus pre covid in general is a very very different population before covid. People had a myriad of different reasons for leaving academia. Some wanted to leave some. Didn't want to leave. But there is a lot of resentment that's their residual frustration. The biggest comparison. I've made is the idea of is the same like a cantu leading church culture meaning academia. Now you have people who are being compelled to leave who don't want to leave education. They want to stay in education but they can't anymore because there are no jobs there and so. I think that one of the things that needs to happen on the side of academia is humility. You have to be able to understand that people want your value. But that's not reason enough. You have to help them see it. You have to translate it. It also requires a dose of humility on the side of industry. Because like i had these prejudices before let me real in back in a little bit and look at this candidate and just understand that they are coming from a different situation now. The other team that has emerged is that i mean higher. Education is changing. I mean it is changing. Cova has made that certain what has made that even more certain especially united states as the decision making on behalf of universities very problematic I am not one to watch things happen. This is what happened in my field. I know it's happening in my field to watch what's happening and say hey here's a cool idea. I can write about and then write a paper for a year spent another year publishing it and then having like i said before maybe fifty people if you're lucky read it and this commentary on the change of higher education i. I can't do that. I want to be able to be there. To facilitate that change amend the thing like the the common thing that keeps happening is. Why aren't we having these discussions out in the open. I want this to be like so many conversations that were hosting our conversations that have been so often held behind closed doors announce about like we need to expose them in order to change them one of the panels that we have a i have. Penalties can be explicitly about toxic cultures in graduate or in in higher education in general Just like some like just like sharing people's stories of that toxic culture have another panel on inviting some special education disability advocates that like what can graduate programs learn from sped and disability theory to help reduce the toxic nature of their programs. I have. I have one. Like i have one on like hate graduate students if right now is not the time to continue graduate school. It's okay to drop out of graduate school And dislike really just normalizing these things that were So stigmatized before and so. It's just this idea like these. These two teams that have emerged of these people have value. How can we translate that value and also. Let's let's change higher education before things that we don't like about it become further embedded. Because if if it's not going to change now tell me when it will no. I totally super interesting. That you say that. An off the mike we. I was talking about Termite only it's been used somewhere else but something that i think makes sense that the changing the phd brand. And and i think from the inside like you're saying but also tried to change how people outside academia perceive what a phd someone with a phd means. What kind of being is this. That says i have a phd. Like a and and i totally agree. I'm super super curious to listen to those panels. Because i think it's those these are very pertinent questions to answer today. Today everything is like pros and people are at home. And there's there's actually time and space to have these conversations like you say to bring it. Bring them out of the drawer. Were the cabinet. Where they're they are behind closed doors. It's super super cool. That you mention that. And i and i do think that that it'll take like you say it'll take the universities to change how they present are the kind of cell. Let's say the phd two candidates and kind of from from day. One tell them look. Some of you will be professors. But most of you won't but you'll come out with a peach and it will serve you well for the rest of your life right and then the other side is hey employers okay. You may imagine that. Pg's are a very kind of distant people a social They're going to demand a lot and and try and you know and be very particular about what they do. Let's let's actually sit and let us tell you what it is and then lee out all the transferable skills that they bring the specific capacities. One of one of the things is why the embarked this huge difficult project of three four five six years and what that means to your organization to have this person in your team. I think those conversations we need to have starting today for the for the next decade to change things and i think that gathered. There are two things that like to comment on that. Is that like in the first example of like this is what universities need to do to do this. Let's be honest. Universities aren't going to change. They will not change unless they are incentivized to change the number one way to incentivize graduate program to change is for students. Task these questions. Like oh before like before i accept like before you before you accept an offer have an explicit conversation. What kind of support do you offer for. Non academic careers and if enough people were asking that question. Enough people turned down or turn down programs. Then they're going change like it has to be like so yes. I agree that universities need to change. We need to ask ourselves. How is that going to happen. And the way that that's going to happen are having these conversations like this. It's it's true. It's true but i think also I think there's some change happening where i feel like universities that i'm in contact with mcgill university here in montreal. They're starting to you worried. Or let's about metrics. Let's let's talk about metrics. The metric in the past was how many of your become professors and publish lot. But today the people in these in these offices were thinking about the pc career now. They're asking themselves. What jobs are they getting. An and i think the change is happening. It's hard these are huge organizations. It's a slow process. But from experience. And again i don't know how widespread it is but some in some places it's happening it's happening and i think it's good news but it needs to happen more and more agree and be normalized absolutely agree And kudos to those programs that are doing cool things on the graduate program are the graduate school The program itself at the graduate school at clinton university is doing some really cool stuff like with their program that they have. I have an interview with I think it's johns hopkins their program that they're building up like they are popping up but it's kind of like like why did it take this pandemic for these things to happen in the first place. It's not like those placement numbers. Were great before tam. Pandemic kit right The other thing. That i wanted to to mention too about what you said is this. And it's kind of like it. Reflects a little bit of the attitude of having a phd of going and talking to industry like like. You mentioned like you know we need to do is is like all right. Let's explain to people like you know what is a phd in like where the transferable skills and stuff like that. To have that conversation on the whole only reinforces the elitist feel of an academic coming into industry. So i go. You don't understand me. Let me explain to you about me right. What should happen right is like having like having those because again a recruiter among knows what it takes a phd. They're not idiots like these people they know what education as. They've met other people to what they don't know is how you value your phd. How're you can see how this transfers and that's what they want that's what they're looking for. Can you communicate complex things. In a way that's easily understood without making anybody feel biting idiot. You're going into it with like well. Let me teach you about. Phd's i think those programs are there. And i think that they're kind of a little bit arrogant so if we come in at the individual level and understand that the individual is talking with another individual that represents a company then that it takes a takes a moment of humility for the candidate has to say. I don't like let me teach you. About what a phd is. Let me share my story. And that's how this been telling about. Especially when i was talking with career coaches that the best way for you to discover your own value and for you to communicate your value is through. Your story is through your narrative. I'm like how do you talk about it. How can you contextualized these things. And so. I think you're absolutely right like these are like these big picture problems but if we want to solve them in a way that is collaborative we need to kind of like step into a little bit more of a collaborative solution as well angry angry and and when i was seeing what i was saying i was thinking more of university starting to bring employers to the campus. The i was thinking. I don't think the onus should be on the candidate like you say you don't want to look like a pedantic academic an interview the country they want you know often these people they are working from home but companies want to build team great and they need good team and team players and there's a lot of things that you can take from a from ichi that can that can you know Conserved say i published with this many people. So collaboration is something. I know that i thrive in tetra tetra. But i think the the there are. There are some offices in universities that that are like phd career promotion offices. I think do this job. There are also companies hiring companies that kind of also have these hats of getting people into positions but also getting employers to to kind of learn that. Hey this is a great pool of people for you. But i don't think they're the the owners should be on the candidate. Nado the got it like you say. Storytelling is the best bring that emotion. Bring that story where you aced it. But also you'll tell this really hard problem that you were able to solve. That's for sure the best. I totally agree with you and humility definitely is key. Yeah and and here's like here's what i would say is that like it's important to understand the positions that we are in an like the the actual I am in this position. I had this sphere of influence. What can i do. And if if any of our listeners are at the institutional level this is your call like it's time to step it up right but for those of you who are not in this position of power to do anything right. Don't just stop at critiquing your institution and just complaining about it right. There are actionable steps that you can and should be taking to two unattached yourself from your from the name recognition of the university if your banking on the name recognition of your university or the name recognition advisor. You're starting like in such a a a bad place you need to start from your own value So this like just like i think it is important to say like yeah like there are things that can be done at the institutional level and for those of you who are in institutional positions do it but for those of you are not remember this when you do again those positions Like don't lose this fire that so many ten faculty lose right like i feel like getting ten years. Just like a bucket of water on your like your passion just always be seeking to improve not just to critique i spent too much time just critiquing things until i started building this. Yeah well we're going to be reaching the end of the interview soon but I i end before asking you to share where people can find you and and You know in the panels etc I'd really like to ask you know maybe thinking of where you you're today you know your situation Thinking of a lot of people are leaving in covid of one or two pieces of advice for people maybe to feel less insecure Also is you. Were talking about accident. Actionable items escapes me. But what little steps could take two to start building. Don't do not feel that they're in stasis right now and that really. Nothing's happening in there. Just in carbonates. Yeah i think there were. There are two things that i could recommend that those of you who are like finishing up your degrees or who are even like thinking about like might be doing a job change soon whether you're graduating or getting laid off already two things i would find. They're both kind of the same connect with people connect with people the on the individual level. Like you need be able to find someone that you can talk to. That can tell your own story where my favorite philosophers contemporary italian feminist philosopher named adriana cavallero. Who who talks about how we are each unique unrepeatable individuals and that the the key to finding your story to finding your own value in your own worth is by hearing one of the ways is by hearing. Your own story told to you whether you decide. That's a friend or whether that's for or you hire a career coach. Find someone and ask them to be honest like like. Hey like why am i a mazing And really those things and start thinking about not only what you accomplished like. I published this paper. What did you do to accomplish it. Those are the transferable skills not the publication that things you did to get published. The second thing that i would do is start. I learned this phrase the other day a networking tour. Go and just find people that you think are interesting on lincoln of. That's the third thing. Get on linked in. If you're not only then do so. Now that's where the jobs are going to turn so get den and find people who are adjacent to you like things like like people whose careers you want to have companies where you want to work and reach out to them and say hi. My name is eric. And i'm learning about this. I would like. I think what you're doing is really really cool. Can we talk for like thirty minutes. So i can learn and just build your network build your network build your network because what those conversations are going to do is going to teach you how to talk about yourself in a way that other people can understand. It will give you practice in talking about yourself. You'll make a connection with another person and if there's an opportunity i don't go into it like hey can you give me a job or hey. Can i get something from this. Just go into like and just be yourself be authentic and then that authenticity will bleed will bleed through when that other person says you know what I think. I have somebody for this. Talk to david. Because i remember this great conversation. We were having about it so that you need to connect like find someone who can help you articulate your own story so you can frame your own story and then start practicing that story and make it visible lincoln because we need to understand academics. Don't do link then they need to Even if you even if you are tenured and you will net. You're never concerned about your job. Get only din and support your graduate student. Support your students. Because that's where things are happening now and it's not like a link into plug. It's the reality at all. The data is being filtered through them. And you'll be surprised anyone listening at how generous people are sharing are linked then in these these communities and again it's like having informational interviews but online and actually for for this situation where we are today where maybe you're stuck at home and you you may not have had physical contact with anyone for months. Well you you'll be surprised how warm how how inviting a welcoming the the the the communities are in how many people out there are willing and eager to take some time off to chat with you about your yours your struggles your your ideas and your career in your potential. So definitely super super i. I don't know if you had another piece of advice but these two are really good. I'm really really happy to the two that you mentioned this. Just to kind of echo. What you're saying. Especially academics. Not academics anymore. Education is is the self selective like self fulfilling prophecy of altruism. Right people don't go into education for money right and so that they understand their own value. They want to help you understand yours. Because they've been there. They receiving that crap pay and and you can do it. Like i had one guy was telling me he was like yeah. My sign on bonus was the equivalent of my yearly salary as a graduate student while you have value. Just don't be arrogant about it. Yeah awesome erik. This was a great conversation. I really had a lot of fun. Now i'm gonna ask you just to to let people that are listening. Know where to find you online You talked about lincoln and for sure. That's that's if people want to contact you but you know your your projects youtube channel etc. This be the right moment. Yeah absolutely. I i am what like if you wanna connect. Please reach out to me in connect on link then i love. I love meeting people. I really do and as far as the place where i'm housing. All this information is a change higher. Ed dot org. It's it's a young my little baby website with not a lot of stuff on their learning. How to do things as i go. But that's i mean that's where he can find more information. I'm on twitter as well So yeah please reach out and connect and just if anything just no. You're not alone out there. Perfect eric thank you so much again. I'm super happy. For having the to the two that you came to to the microphone. And i'll post all of that information in the show notes so be sure to to go there and to click on the links and to reach out to eric. And you've just heard. He has a really great vibe. He's he really likes striking station especially about these team. So don't hesitate follow the links and and do do chat him up. Please do all right. Thank you thank you so much appreciate and that's it for this episode of papa. Pg thanks for tuning in happy sharing and see you next week. Thanks for listening to another episode of the poppy. Hd podcast head over to papa. Each dot com for show notes in for more food for thought about non-academic post grad careers. I'll always be happy to share inspiring stories new ideas in useful resources. Here on the podcast. So make sure you subscribe on itunes or wherever you get your podcasts to always keep up with the discussion and to hear from our latest guests.

youtube utah state university papa peachy James stevens david mendez eric james stevens eric university of bahamas george floyd chris kettering Eric Ed central washington university twitter clemson university riyadh john oliver ben webster emam hearst
Jonathan Weitzman  Part 2  Preparing  Students For Their Professional Life

Papa Phd Podcast

47:47 min | 1 year ago

Jonathan Weitzman Part 2 Preparing Students For Their Professional Life

"Welcome to the second part of my conversation with Jonathan Weizman. Part Two of our conversation. Jonathan talks about how he envisions career building in academia and also talks about different projects. He's championed at the university. The Perry aimed at preparing students for their professional life ended empowering them during their graduate studies by stepping across and saying. I'm not going to be the teacher on the teacher side but we all learned together. I learned as much from my students as they've learned from me. And you know to be able to ask a student. Who's head of an incubator? Can you show me around? I can ask questions. It's fantastic and I am the one thing I've really realize as a teacher wants the student realizes they have a lot of freedom suddenly express themselves in lots of different way. We learn together and this is fantastic. Welcome to pop up. Beach With David. Mendez. The podcast where we explore careers and life after Grad school with guests who have walked the road less traveled and have unique stories to tell about how they made their place in the world of constantly evolving rules. Get ready to go off the beaten path and hop on for an exciting new episode of Papa. Each all right so. Let's resume that we talked about so many interesting things so tonight can I just one thing. I'd like to say so that we sort of mentioned during the break in and sort of alluded to before is this idea that. Cv's are very linear and offer my students there there. I think one one reason that people are scared to to try things. Is that what they're going to put on your CV so in my career. In My. Since I left highschool at eighteen I have several times taken a year out. Okay I had four sorts of personal and professional and different reasons and I sent you my. Cv ON MY CV. And you didn't look at my CV and say wait a minute. There's some gals no one. No one's people students thing that people people look. Cv's saying where's the gap? So as long as I don't I think it's hard to take five years off and to come back is hard but if you wanna try something and as you said yourself we should make experimentalist. Yeah we should experiment more without careers. If you WANNA try. Something Lighting Acting Scientific Science Business Development. I spent a year doing business development in a It's not on my CV because is not useful at the moment to put it on CV. There were times when it's been on my survey there were times when it's not but if if it's less than a year it just disappears when you went to disappear and when you want to bring it out then you bring it on and you use it so so. I think that when you realize that then you say I can experiment. I can take six months to travel around the world or six months to be a science journalist and as long as I can justify it financially. Then then there's lots of things you can do lots more than students. Yeah and some people say you to industry. You can come back. That's not true. I've had people on the on the show who have done it and of course it depends on what you doing and industry but there's a lot of stereotypes out there in of all if you if you leave you can't come back. No not not really true but then what you're saying also you have to tailor your Dr of the of the CV to whoever's going to view if if it's important for them you put it in if it's not. It's like six months like you were saying you doesn't go in for sure for sure. No I totally agree. Maybe something we can in the end in the final. The final set of advice of pieces of advice that we can talk about. How how these experiences don't are not holes in your there different things that you did that may or may not at different times be useful to your your career advancement and You shouldn't be afraid of them. Cool who so do you did? You have a other other professional. Because he said I tried to leave and come back again and I came back a couple of times apart from writing journalism Is there anything else? You'd like to mention so so I did do a year in in Business Development. Very interesting. Very Interesting Maya I. I was actually so I talk about this because it actually sort of dissipated him on my CV. I had. I was recruited at the institute pastor but not as a group leader as a researcher in France they have these junior recruitment which gives you a certain security but doesn't necessarily give you a lab immediately and and these this status is not always easy. Because you're not ahead of a lab but you know the Post Doc. So they're not always easy to navigate an and was going through all sorts of personal things and and I took a job Iannucci convinced the institute. I was working so the Palestinians to has a fantastic history of of of business development and patenting patenting so the past two for many years had a very large income from the HIV patents and portfolio pants so they have a very vague some very good people in the in the business development. And I and I convinced the institute to let me step over with the idea that I would be a bridge between the administration and the research community in history and so just one thing. I remember my mental. My the head of my department he said to me. I'm not convinced that this is a good idea but I can see you want to. He said don't make a leaving party everytime I left. He said don't make a leaving party with the idea being that if you don't have a leaving party then maybe you can so so so so. I went so I went to to to work in the administration and in in France. I mentioned it's the same way you are the research body and the administrative bodies have a very hard time talking to each other and I was really convinced that I could play a unique role because I knew the research community. I came from them. I spoke their language and I was willing to that over the bridge and I could help. Create easier links and and at the beginning is this was it was very challenging but very interesting so I learned a lot about intellectual property. I work with the Patent Office. Who were delighted to have someone who could explain the science behind the discoveries interact with the researchers? I work with a business development people with the contract people so I I really learned to line. I we involved in setting up startups and silent in enormous and this has been. It's been fantastically helpful teaching. It gave me a network. It gave me lots of expenses. It was not wholly satisfied. Okay there was something museum and there was something missing and in the end I came back but but it wasn't but I don't regret any of this whether you know whether it was i. At another point in my career I went to work for a startup. It was the start up bubble. Evan was excited. I was doing again. Sort of interface job Doing scientific content for For a startup company that was involved in the needed scientific content around their products. It was very exciting beginning then it. It didn't well. First of all at the time. Startups had had plunged so when it plunged it was time to to go back but I never regretted any of those moves. I I did them each of them because I was. I just was too frustrated. I just couldn't do it anymore. I needed to go and see something else. Often you know the the grass is greener. You're GonNa see and you realize that. Actually she there's a lot of good things about about science and about the community and I'm when I came back I didn't think of as a failure because I think I bought things back with me and as a teacher having students love to have a teacher. Who's not only Scientists but also has done all these other things. I think students find that that I think it inspires them And a lot of the things. I've come back helped me in other ways. So you know as a scientist we also have a patent and I understood how the pack posted work. Because I'd seen it from the other side so so you pick up things you never know where picking up things you pick them up all over the place and one of the things I like to say is that When you do a PhD. When you do I I as as the HD and then you do a postal you become someone who can learn anything you set your mind to very well and and with these and fairly quickly to a certain level. You can't be a violinist unless you started at three three year old but you can you know if you've you're interested in something. It's fairly easy for us. To see what the path we need to follow to almost become a specialist in that case. It's even different. Is you try different things and you brought back interesting elements of those things into what you do today. Which is very very cool. One thing we talked about the Mike off air was and and I think it's a good moment to mention it because I find it really really interesting and cool and good and inspiring is that I believe this was before studying interview me. Tell me if I'm wrong that you addison point actually proposed and and I think even were able to start it a class that you that you were going. Give the students to talk about the reality of Research and Industry and I think more and more universities today are looking at the reality of the life of peachy students in our Realizing that okay. A lot of them are not going to be professors. Let's teach them what what life is. Peachy is in other domains namely industry. Can you talk a little bit about that? How the idea was received by your institution and then how the experience is and how the students react to the to to this type of of course as I mentioned already that so I created this class About Research and development in industry. And this is the so-so. I run this master's program genetics. It's very hard core. It's very research orientated And most of the students they have genetics and epigenetics genomics population genetics. It's he's very intense and then choose afternoon. We have recess should venom onto praise research and development in in business in. I'm when I first created it some of my colleagues. I remember the first teaching meeting I went to. I said I'M GONNA create this new class. Someone said was that doing here. We don't need that does not genetics and an I defended it because As I said I think my the experiences I've had. I thought I had something to say about stepping out and what I've discovered over the years so this class is extremely popular class. The students like it for smokers just is just relaxing. We just think about somebody else. There's no this little scientific content There's a lot of questioning students. I'll push to think who they are. Whether going we go and visit a an incubator so where they're creating startups and actually the incubator we visit so the incubator now has thing is that the SEM. It's down the street from my university in another university but the person running the incubator was a student of org says to the students. The first time I thought about this was when I took this class that he's now teaching and he did he. Interestingly so he did the masters he was a good student. He did appear afterwards. And then he transitioned and now he's running the incubator and in the incubator other startups that employing students from our program so we go visit the incubator. We have people coming to talk about Intellectual Property. We have every year students come to talk about genetic counseling which is a new career that didn't exist twenty years ago that that that every year at least one of the students from our program goes onto masters an wheels have students who in consulting in journalism and they come back and they talk about that expense and and I also give class about my experience. We talk about how to write a CV. And out of how to think about looking for jobs One thing that really striking every year is that the students who they want very simple answers to the questions like should do I need to do a PhD or not Do any should. I do a second masters or not and and and and they always asking these and they always ask the light light. Do you recruit people with masters or with a PhD. And the people coming back and the entrepreneurs. Theo there was look at them like at Donald. Stand the question. We're looking for people with skills without an every person we who comes whether I often interesting to do the same job one of them did it did a PhD and somehow managed to get into the research track today. He's the head of the company and another one left after masters and did a Master's in business and winning complete and they're doing the same job so and it shows the students. There's no there's no golden paths. Everyone gets weather going differently. You also do need to do what you're doing now but have did having a PhD enrich where you are in your network and give you ability to. Yeah so and there's so many ways that there's so many ways to get there and you have to enjoy the journey. It's not so the students always one very simple answers to the questions. Like should I do? Hdl NAM and and often. It's is asking the questions the wrong way. So this class has been has been fantastic. Actually we recreated this in the M one so the first year the masters and last year we created a an option in module in the second year and which is based on Cross onto pizza creating companies and was very successful. The students work in groups to create a sort of fit like a project and thought about recruiting intellectual property marketing. And this year. We can do where we can have a two week program where they actually get to develop the Sir this these opin. These have been like a lot of fun to teach and and I think responsible in that where helping to give our students some tools not not to go to the quiz but to think about how they might do that. I think universities need to start doing that. And and be because I would love to see before and after level of anxiety of these students about their career. I'm sure it's much much lower after they go through these through these courses for short. I'd like to talk to if we have time. I'd like to too bad another project thing because it is it's unusual and nothing's been fantastic teaching experience and an an I. I'm I'm trying to defend the idea. That is just as helpful so so A few years ago I created a project which is called Academy vivants which is A project trying to bring together hot and signs and And it's the same students these fifty students with in this hard coal genetics program. And we have a program One module that is Where we have an artist in residence being in an artist and students from Loboda and And we just create a completely different way of teaching and learning by creating interface between art and science and has been fantastic. It's been so we have students arts and the end from science. Yeah working together in project. Yeah Yeah and the projects and what's been what's been gray. Is that a nobody when you teach a class you say this is. This is what we're going. This is what's going to be on the exam. It's very content based and and his fellow instructions. Yeah you tell the students exactly what you want. They know what you'll be expecting from them. It's Yup and And I've come to the realization. That's great but it doesn't prepare you for the lab because when you get to the lab. He semes- you don't know where you're going to professor. There's no way you're going. You may be stakes. You need different scales. So how do you prepare for scientific grid for science without without learning about science and so art? Is it just a fantastic way of of stepping out of your comfort zone and being confronted with with Lincoln the unknown and how to explore that and the arts students have a completely different way of doing this and the science students when they realize they always the first. We don't understand what's going to be on the exam and I say I I don't know we we're going to work it out together and sit with me and if we do if we do clay and sit on the floor. I said on the floor if we right. We've had sessions where we've written on the wolves I on the wolves. I've done everything we collage everything we do with him. And but I'm like I'm not. This is not teaching where we tell you what to do. This is learning where you explore. And I think it's I think it's really important for for thinking about where ideas come from. How you deal with the limited resources how you produce something to produce them with your hands that you plow of. I think this is great training for the lab and for everything else but also for the lab. So this has been. I've loved this class the students. They always very cautious. They always did the second class. Who is frustrated? We down what we're here for. Why are we doing this? What's our anyway was discarded and then the class before because there's an exam so the class before the exam. There's always a hive of activity lots of doing and then they're always proud and we always laugh. I always take pictures in the exam because it's weird to have an exam where everyone loves. Yeah said they laugh and they and they also they explore themselves. We St- students writing poetry and So it's it's been fantastic. So this is one of my. This is somebody. I've really enjoyed doing but I really defend the idea that that teaching is not about the scientific content. Of course you need. You need to teach people had to do. Go by Matic's they. I teach epigenetics in a very serious way as well. But you also need to teach these the soft skills and being able to deal with stepping out of your comfort zone and the unknown and that's very hard to teach using textbook. No it's through and it loose back to some things that you were saying before Thinking if you think of people asking if I get a PhD. Do I get this job? You're saying things. That are not lear and once you go into art. It's not linear at all right. And I think I one thing I want to say I wanNA say Kudos for you have the interest of the students at heart and you wanted to go through your program and grow and I think that's commendable and. I wish I had something like that when I was in graduate school. He must be very fulfilling for you but also for them but the fact that the artistic process is so different than theirs. You don't have a Net. You don't have something you don't have a ground you like floating in an idea. It prepares you for what real life actually is. Which is you're gonNA deal with each different problem. Every day -tunities that arise doors that open or the clothes and you'll see the life you can't say I'm buying a ticket for life and now I have a succeed. No that's not. The ticket is for the opportunity. And then you you kind of create the sculpture of it. What your life and your career in this case will be. I really really loved. Loved the concept really really cool. I just want to take a moment before going on with the interview to let you know that you can help me. And the show by leaving star rating in a comment on your podcasting APP. She want to go a step further. Go TO PATRIOT DOT com slash up a beach d. now and become a supporter for the equivalent of a coffee per month. You'll be helping me immensely with the recurring cost of hosting and producing the show again. Thank you for being a true fan into other projects. Because I think you like them so one is I been become very interested in interdisciplinary encounters but also interdisciplinary research. So I have a I created. A large consortium which is called the WHO am I which is a laboratory excellence which tries to bring together. Biologists with physicists and philosophers and psychoanalysts and people from different fields and around questions of identity at the molecular cellular to Sheila and uneven population level So and this came out of a realization that our universities proud that it has all the disciplines but it has them in different buildings as a building physicist wearing for the biology and they never meet and they they never there was now under students. Also the the masters programs and Basti programs all done like this and I wanted to create something really Trans Really Trans and not so identify. Speak to you. D- Biologists are very this sort of opportunist so so. Biologists are very good at using other people's skills to answer their questions. So when when we started this They were physicists. In the room and the biologists said okay. We know why they're here. Because we need people to help us In image analysis in informatics and things. But why why the philosophies in the psycho how are they going to help us and I was like? It's not about helping us. It's about it's about interacting so that we can create something new and different expect about them helping us with so this has been. This has been very challenging. Vache citing faith frustrating. Very time consuming But I have become profoundly convinced of the importance of stepping out of discipline silos and of interfacing Qena in a in an equalizing way. Not Not using using other people's skills starts my question answering new questions because we've come together across Poland sorts. Yeah so this has been debated devoted a lot of energy to this with some frustration. Some some some very satisfying I have published over. The last five years published a philosopher. I published reverse sociologist published. We physicist and of course we biologists from lots of different sub disciplines. But but this has been this has been I. I really think this is the future of of Of Academia is to create better into discipline. Me and we're seeing it with the whole Kobe thing. You know it's not just about virology and it's not just about how bad drug development and it's not just about epidemiology and it's not just about politics about how these things come together. So so they this is. I really do believe in person. I think. Universities and recruiting training scenarios like programs and and university recruiting committees. Need to find ways to to encourage into disciplinary scholarship. So this and not because it's sexy or bling bit because the future yeah. The Future of academia requires people to step out of their disciplines and to learn from the. I guess where it's hard. Is that people who are managing their have an excel spreadsheet or you know and they're looking at numbers and it's hard to see what they're gonNA gain from this type of of Endeavor But you know people like you have to be out there and and you know and publishing books and maybe doing taxes and explaining why White School that me a biologist. I'm working with the philosopher. And why's is this making are so that's why I whenever I can talk about talk about it because I think it's really important and you had mentioned the second the second project you're like this because so I'm on the. I'm on the board of the doctoral school. Lima they call Dr Al. I'm head of one of the CO head of one of the departments in amongst all the other things that I I can't say no to because I really care about students and so the Doctor School gives out PhD fellowships and then they follow PhD students during their and they they're they officially validate the the But the conduct dwell on the sexual contact Said that they were. They were noticing that there were a lot of mental health issues and that beyond important mental health. That students were extremely stressed pasty students. Could I do something? Oh I think if some some way to help so during their HD in France you have to do in addition to the lab work. You have to one hundred hours of training in something okay. So people take courses in by fanatics. Animal has been dre whatever it is but you can imaging image analysis the things that they need for their projects. But you also have to take some soft skills classes so I thought this is a great opportunity to do a project that I've been dreaming of for years. But they haven't found a way to support which we could dance your page Tei. And so we. And so this was weaker together so A choreographer a actor Directa a singer as five artists and me and we got twenty students in a PhD and we had It was Tuesday evening for there. Was supposed to be two hour sessions in the end. They turn out to be three hours because no one wanted to go home. And and it was about The original idea was that We would help students to relax and to develop Communication and corporal expression skills but he turned out to be much more than that partly. Because we have these very talented artists who managed to create so we took twenty students. They had self volative men and women not dancers. One guy came because his girlfriend brought with dragged him along and and we and they twenty students from twenty different countries. Almost I mean Lots of different languages and and we just explored how to express ourselves in different. Well different ways. What was really interesting is the first. The first session The Divac Day. Let's go round and everyone say their name and tell me. Tell me what you work on. So that we can understand a bit and and they also they all look down and they gave these very very a technical explanations of what they do and he and his team managed to get them to come out of themselves. We got them singing. Which is amazing and dancing and and at the end we did a performance in the park. Actually and it wasn't an students were so there were some people came and watched it achieved for anyone else. They did it for them they just wanted to to express what they and it was fascinating and I really. I learned a lot of things about you. Know The lab is very very physical. And there's a sort of almost a choreography to to lab work to perfecting and and the space. How can you be aware of the other people around you without? How'd you former glue without imposing the group? How how others? Auto Organization of groups and and communicating and was a higo each of them to to to say things in their own language. Adult language is going on at the same time technical and emotional and it was fantastic. It was it was great and the students. They still talk this stellar. They formed the group still talking to each other. And and I again. I think. And we're trying. I'm trying to to to to Documentaries I'm convinced these experiences. Help them back in the lab. Help them when they have to give their defense in front of lots of people Have them with the idea that I can get up on stage? Even though I lost everything that I can interact with other people and share and be vulnerable in chess about myself and still have my own project and my young career or these things so so I wanted to tell you. It's I wish there was footage like this in private. But it's a super cool idea and as you were saying in part one if you didn't exactly like this but tell me if you agree if you as a researcher put all the eggs on the best of science and that's all you do whenever you hit those hard moments in those robots that everyone hits it's a it can hit you really really hard and you can say if you put in everything he can take it all out of you and he does. I I I. I don't want people so I don't want to come across as you know. He's one of those guys in everything always works. Family went to is this great. Cv and I had some low points. Some some very low points Personally and hard for my family to around me and and I. I had lots of things as well we. We don't talk about them or not. But I don't look at me and say I everything I want them to see that I'm vulnerable and I make mistakes and I don't know necessarily where I'm going either I think I think that's really important to communicate to justice but one thing is clear and reaching the end of the interview. But you care for your students. And that's that's that's clear to me and it it. It's heartwarming to meet after this conversation to to feel that and and you you mentioned before some of these things have gone full circle where you have a student the next student or eleven and eleven as teaching a class. Because he's now in an incubator that you got the students to to be able to visit and study. I one of the one of the things I do enough that it's got nothing to do with science is. I'm very interested in in ancient texts. So we which is the common link is. I'm interested in looking at letters. And how letters from words and how was allow expression which is part of Science and by Science Journalism? Also part of genetic said sort about the letters and how letters from the woods up so But there isn't an ancient texts that that asks the question who is wise and the and the answer and the answer given is key who learns from everyone and And I feel I always quote these sort of things to to my students that I bought by stepping across and saying. I'm not going to be the teacher on the teacher side but we all learn together I've learned as much from my students as they've learned from me and and you not to be able to ask a student. Who's head of an incubator? Can you show be around in you know I can ask? Questions is fantastic and I am the one thing I've really realized as a teacher is the more the less instructions and the more freedom you give. The student wants to student realizes they have a lot of freedom. Suddenly they express themselves in lots of different ways and we all learned together and this is fantastic and then. I can take that and go back to the lab and you know there are little things that continue to turn around and inside and so so I really feel at the end of every semester. I thank my students for what they've taught me through. It's a two way street. Or ideally a two way street for sure and and again. Kudos FOR FOR ALL. You're doing all these super interesting projects. I hope the listeners will be inspired by them and maybe try to dance their PhD. Who knows wherever they are? I think it's a very surprising. But but great idea through a lot of us are introverted and not very outgoing and just to imagine myself being on stage. Dancing my my. Pc you need to break a bunch of barriers to be able to do that right but I also to students. You've chosen career. If you chew SCI FI chosen a career that That has the requires an amazing skill set. And that you were. You're going to need to be able to go on stage and give seminars. You're going to need to be able to talk to people around your Posta. You'RE GONNA need to teach the so many things that are going to need to be able to do if you don't if you'd never want to get up on stage he com- scientists because it's not just about during the experiments you have to be able to communicate and lightened present and teach. That's part of the job. And if you can't do that then then then you won't succeed as well as so. You need this amazing skill set which is hard to develop that. It's hard but it's eventually if you if you ended up leaving academia it's highly valued by employers out there even though they might not know that if you ask them like you said. Do you employ peach these or do you hire. Pc's they won't know how to answer but if you ask. Do you want someone who knows. This knows that is capable of doing this. Has this personality trait. They'll say yes right away for sure and I think the part of teaching is giving teaching is giving students the confidence to say. I you know I. I'm not sure I know how to do it but I wanNA have a try and I think that's that's what we need to do as a teacher and I won't even comment on that or rephrase it. I totally agree and and uh I wish I hope teachers out there are think like you because again especially considering that a lot of students are living with anxiety etc and they're only or one even like. I was here in Canada my family's in Portugal in my my father figure. Let's say in a way and you know when your supervisor has your your success in your fulfillment in in Europe world champions new champions you in a way it bolsters you and it gives you that confidence to go forward. I think this is the right point. Actually too because you've given a lot of you know told a lot of great stories and given a lot of inspiring incites but given the Tweeden now reaching the end of the interview and based on all this we said if there are people out there making the stock doc moving their PhD. Who are thinking. I'll tenure maybe is not ten years maybe not materializing in my my losing my time by doing this or am I throwing all my pg to the garbage. If I go to industry what two or three pieces of advice do you have for them to know to keep their their baird pointing north in go in going full steam to finish to defend and then to create that piece of art that their career is going to be hard to give advice? Because when when you give advice makes it look like you worked it all out and one thing that I'm realizing is you never worked out? So so it's always hard to give. It is with vices. If I'm an elder wise elder because I'm still figuring it out myself maybe that's part of the advice is that you'll always be figuring it out yourself but but but as I said before we experimentalist the only way to know whether you can lie is survive and when you right so maybe you'll get right and you'll always get better so I can get up on stage and give a talk but I still spend a lot of time preparing because I can always get better and And my writing can still always get better so but you only do that by by by having the coverage to try you need to step out of your comfort zone and try and so for example in my lab. I wonder when students are GonNA think they're listening to make they're gonNA think he's everyone thinks he's great but he's not really like that. He's a difficult supervisor. Difficult father and all these things so I get all by but I I really do try but I do say to my student some projects in my lab that that we do things that I don't know how to do and they find it very turbine because it would be nice if I said I know how to do that and I'm like I don't want to do things I know how to do because analogy them. I want to do things I don't know today. That's what makes good science. And that was what makes life more interesting so So that just means that. The coaches say. I'm going to do things I don't know how to do which is hard to say and to do but actually makes life much more fun and I think makes for Batta Science. I don't want every paper coming out of my lap tree. Look the same because we've done that. So so sir I think I think you gotTa have the guts to try and most of the a lot of the trying his actually lowest because you're GonNa get a PhD at the end so If you've done some science communication or you got up on stage or will you've Tried to teach even if it's just a high school student who comes to lab or you've given a talk at your local church whatever. It is about stem cells. Or whatever whatever it that you do all those they will all be part of your training and I think the other thing. I really feel strongly about this. Art and dance is is not to say. That's my work. The science work and then and then there's all the it's all part of who you are so you know I'm talking to you now is this. Is this work or playing well and some bit of everything the the boundaries are not always Clinton. But you need to. You need to be able to try. You need to be never scared to do things that you don't have to. That's how you turn a great way to end the interview. Yup I would like to add some data science. Which is I want to thank you because I I really like what you're doing and I and I'm because I'm as said I. I'd like to keep trying to do things I don't know how to do so. I'm just in the process of launching my own podcast so I've been listening very carefully to you. I think he's doing a great job. Really like what you're doing and it's inspiring. They'll be lots of science related podcasts. So as is is going to be called the lonely pipette or or the London pet. We work that way is Piper to repent so and it's going to be helping scientists to do better science excellent. I'm going to keep a neurotic for that for sure. Do you know when it's going to watch it so I have a little time at home. So we we recording the first ones now so hopefully when we come out of confinement we'll have the first packet package ready to excellent. I'll make sure to to share something whenever you launch and then to to listen. I'm super interested in in what that's going to be. Is there any? If someone's listening ends at I'd really love to chat with Jonathan. What's the best the best way to reach to reach? You would be Lincoln so so late in is. I'm very active in Lincoln The easiest way to find me is sir twitter so my twitter is a epigenetics so the French spelling so we didn't talk about epigenetics. But that's something we could spoke of a two hour episode epigenetics disarming them very excited about and very excited about how epigenetics is communicated to the public. So My my twitter name is EPA genetic Or you can find me on Lincoln so those are the two platforms that I'm I'm using at the moment. Perfect I will put that in the show notes and I'm thinking back. Maybe there's a couple of things that I can put in there to the Ted talk and other things Jonathan thank you so much for your time. This was such a pleasure. I'm really Shanty by all the projects that you talked about in in especially seeing that. They're really focused on the students and on their their interests on bolstering them on preparing them. For for what comes after it. It's really it's really Touching and I just wish you success in all your current projects and all the future ones that you might have including the podcast David if you enjoy the insights shared on the show each week and would like to dig deeper into some of the subjects covered. You can now join the Papa Peachy Postgraduate Career Exploration Group. On facebook there you will find like minded listeners but also a few of the guests will be taking part in the conversation so to start a conversation just go to facebook. Dot Com for Slash Papa. Phd and US to join. The show has helped you in any way and you'd like to contribute join the Public Beach de Patriot. Patriot dot com forward slash pump a PhD and become a monthly supporter. You will be helping me continue to interview interesting guests and to bring you stories that will help you in your career journey. Thanks for listening to another episode of the Papa. Phd PODCAST head over to pop each dot com for show notes in for more food for thought about non-academic Post Grad careers. I'll always be happy to share inspiring stories new ideas and useful resources here on the PODCAST. So make sure subscribe on Itunes or wherever you get your guests to always keep up with the discussion and to hear from our latest guests.

scientist Jonathan Weizman France Lincoln researcher Cv twitter facebook Grad school Mendez Perry Patent Office physicist Pc supervisor Papa Peachy Postgraduate Caree Iannucci Public Beach de Patriot Evan
Drew Slack  Powering Through Change with Drive and Positivity

Papa Phd Podcast

1:00:47 hr | 2 years ago

Drew Slack Powering Through Change with Drive and Positivity

"What happens when you have all your ducks lined up and the universe throws your curve ball? That's the moment when you have to regroup reflect deeply on what you want. The you passed that is opening up to you to look like and Drissa Game Plan. That will allow you to come out. Winning drew slack was well on his way towards the life in the professorial laureate when his curveball arrived in today's episode we learn about the principles the resources and the values that were key in building the career he has escort Donald Trump himself today. Postdoctoral work is just is the most Physically and emotionally challenging. Jane I think environment and You know I think that's that's where most people really find themselves. The most explicitly tested. You know it's it's surreal. Walk of faith to to do that. So I'd I'd say that's that's one thing is that you really learn to trust and rely on yourself And a question. That's where that's where he developed your gear. Strongest Work Ethic and determination. Welcome to pop up each with David. Mendez the podcast where we explore careers and life after Grad school with guests who have walked the road less traveled and have unique stories stories to tell about how they made their place in the world of constantly evolving rules. Get ready to go off the beaten path and hop on for an exciting new episode of Papa. PhD If you have have a question or a theme that you'd like to see covered in our interviews you can now simply go to anchor dot FM for Slash Papa Peachy and record a message judge to be featured in one of our future episodes and be sure to follow up each D- On facebook twitter instagram and to subscribe on your favorite podcast APP. So this week we're talking withdrew slack. Drew is an experienced medical director with accomplished career history in the biotechnology and health regulatory sectors. He skilled in oncology molecular biology biotechnology management and clinical research and has postdoctoral Turell. Experience in Translational Clinical Oncology Research with a PhD focusing molecular pharmacology and oncology from McGill University. Welcome to Papa Peachy drew thanks. David really easy. You invited me to take part. It's my pleasure so tell us a little bit more about yourself starting at your PhD and And the tell us a little bit how you can you know what what path you followed from. UPS G to what you do today. Sure sure so. I kind of acquired a fascination for molecular biology in research and of course doing an honors project. Gotcha a reminder graphic university and went from there to molecular pharmacology McGill where I I worked in academic ceiling and in molecular biology with a with a focus in in molecular pharmacology in developing developing clinical or developing on lead small compound slow molecule compounds And it was a very Very High Energy Group in our in that Gauge de setting A large lab very busy in collaborative lab and very obstructive experience not without a lot of challenges but very 'em remarkable learning environments and Except me up well for a post doctoral work that I did subsequently daily college medicine so I went on there to you ought to do my post doctor work in Houston with a Baylor affiliated clinical research lab at Texas Children's Cancer Center and did several years of postdoctoral experienced they are Before figuring out what what my next move was us. And what would the following steps after you poster so I think like a lot of scientists who end up raising families and confronting wanting some of the challenges of of progressing career in research. I kind of kind of hit that point where where I started to say. Talk about work life balance than or the rewards for me personally versus rewards. I could offer to to my family. And he started me thinking thinking a little bit about alternative pathways at the same time An award mechanism that I was seeking the NIH a Come to a close and it really was sort of the end of a chapter for me in a sense in that The most viable halfway that I could've taken to independence as a as a principal. Investigator had sort of been very abruptly. Shut down for me. I kind of leaned on on network of GAUGE G post colleagues and ended up settling on non returning home to be closer to family. That's auto offer me and that led me to a career in in regulatory and yesterday after a kind of a long roundabout surge. I decided that that was maybe the best place search for me in terms of leveraging my skills and Do to look after my son was was in regulatory okay so in the Cro newly actually Working Board Health Canada initially in a post market surveillance unit the market health products pharmacovigilance unit and then later on in pre market Clinical drug rebuke acidy This this is already interesting because I surmise. That from what. You're saying that you dwell in doing so. He said he was high energy. But you seem to have had good results and good good outcome. Come which drove. You was your post up. Yeah I I never doubted that You know in in those early days that I wanted To to be G I in that I wanted to have my own lab Absolutely research driven absolutely focused on on discovery discovery and Sava the academic laboratory setting was the only one for me early going and that you know that that kind of look really drove me to be honest without inking a great deal about an actual realm. I think it's it's later on as other priorities starts at Kohl's that you start to start to really question more right and I think for me that the real stimulus was family. Yeah I think it's reality only for for a lot of people out there you get to age. Do you find a partner and you start Start setting up a family and then you know priorities change inge and You know your your ease of the use of moving to another country to do another post. DOC is not the same so I guess that's probably something that that That waiting there for you but when this NIH grant or or a fellowship exactly what the term is didn't come through. Can you tell us a little bit about how that affected you. Did you already have your son at that time I did. Yeah he he's very young that time and Yeah it was You know in that incredibly busy phase of a post doctoral training where you're You're supervising other clinical fellows in some cases supervising activities technician. You're trying to publish your works. Works you're you're at the bench constantly and collecting points for experiments And developing relationships maintaining relationships with collaborators meters and and then then you have this other fulltime job where you're trying to compete aggressively for For on award that will it will help establish yourself as an independent investigator and As you know those types of award mechanisms require usually several attempts at just prior to to my third attempt with ositive feedback From from reviewers They abruptly announced the mechanisms. Cancel those so it's a it's a real A real brush pack. You know when you get news like that I can still remember where I was. You know when that announcement was made so then it's the question then becomes so. Are you going to go back to do private foundations. Are you going to continue to rely on on a major for funding and continue to you. We know operate in that context of of postdoctoral salary constraints. Yeah another guest tucked. Talked talked to me about the K ninety nine. Is this the same I think in the same family. This one was okay so it's in the same family of things. Yeah so you you say you remember what had happened in quite a shock. What I'd like to sharer what I usually like to share with the audience is to give them tools to deal with these things that happen to anyone into everyone? How did you deal with this? Do you remember I as a physical shock almost rights you. You must have felt a pit in your stomach back. How are the next steps? Do you know because you said you had your child's so now the something must have changed changed inside you to say okay. I'm done I'm dying. I'm done trying this path. Yeah you know. I think we all have setbacks. Right in our careers you you wouldn't you wouldn't get through the first month in graduate school if you couldn't negotiate some of those everybody's been air I think it's the cumulative effect Trey and I think this was like I said for me. It almost felt like a close of chapters like this This lifestyle is is not working working well for me and my family so much now And you know the the next step in the progression towards towards a An improvement of that lifestyle was was sort of pulled out from under me and I was that was really it was just a okay now. Now Universe may be trying to speak to. The time list wasn't so much a I ninety two. I need to walk away or or give up on this top. I need to any Jacob Blinders off and and explore some some alternatives. which friendly I? I just hadn't hadn't done a The you're super. We're busy with all the other stuff that you needed to worry for today. Yeah like You know like like so many people in that post doc world Little Time into to contemplate You know a completely different path when the twenty three and twenty four hours a are committed to you know to these goals and so how did you then establish a game plan for for what was coming next like which was like you're saying you hadn't given it a minute of thought. Not until that moment were the next steps into building the transition into finding what your interests were may be into reaching out to people people that might That might give you some pointers. Yeah it was The the priority for me at that point then was was to go home and really income back to Canada and and closer to family. And you know it's sort of realizing again families you know serve comes up in this. I wanted I wanted a closer relationship the sun and and his extended family and so that kind of led me to Ottawa and The it was sort of evident early on that was sort of be bury the best Career path for me given even my skill set as scientists as light like scientists in the Ottawa area was was to look at regulatory but unfortunately I had I had friends from from graduates delays. Who who had gone in that direction early on and so I had a a sort of a you know a built in network with three or four people who had moved into different in areas of Of Regulatory that could help inform me and help identify a place for me in an L. Canada. Excellent so so these these Friends is this this network That was ready for you at that point that came from Grad school whether ways ways particular ways in which they helped you did they help you. actually a find the position. Did they help you prepare to interview. You know how how did that. Let go because you've been on the academic track for all those years and now you're going to have to go to this government body and present yourself as a as a candidate it for for a position that you know. Now you know about you've learned about it but it's new to you in a way and you're going to have a learning curve after that right. How did you navigate that? How and how did these these these mentors or these these people that you that you knew? How did they help you get ready for for that part? Yup I have to give you know tremendous credit to to money to my colleagues in those those who mentored me they They really are supported. all kinds of Phone discussions coffee shop discussions. Because it's true I knew nothing about at world you. We know that that was so far removed from the translational research environment that I had been been inhabiting for so long This was an in and regulatory is also a world that that's quite opaque for most people what Ozan Inside that that is you know is not to not the subject of lots of international conferences. That people attend so so I really did. I made extensive use of my network one friend in particular or was tremendously. Supportive of me. coach through the entire process up to the point of In fact Creating the an avenue for me to to get an interview so that you know and that's a critical step in a in a context. Where a lot of physicians arch? It is not evident how you identify position in that setting and I don't work in regulatory anymore but I've known people who we're interested in in that domain. I know people who are in that domain but but Not Not in the governmental aspect of it do you have you know what was what were the key things that that in this coaching that you had that helped you land that position and the people out there listening that might be interested. What do they focus on onto to show An employer like that that they're the the right candidates for the position I think having Having having a real understanding or developing real understanding of how of how regulatory environments were really showcasing showcasing. How energetic is probably goes from for industry or other environments as well is is really Show showcasing how Your skills can can be transferable And particularly for the position in in mind How how your your feels feels like your your specialty skills Make good fit for the role so I think that's you know that's a really important element of ago in competitive did you. Did you need to or did you get to practice interviewing with with the your friends uh-huh because any types of tools and tricks any type of techniques or tactics to help someone because interviews they take they take place in this very limited amount amount of time. I Dunno I actually government. Maybe it's more complex but you need to practice right. How did you take care of that aspect of okay I I? I saw myself as an academic. Now I'm going to present myself as the right person for this position. Yeah definitely there was a process of rebranding being that I had to go through and the good thing about government is. Is that the various steps. Once you've once you've made a connection and identified in Enro- An opening a government tends to proceed along very structured pathway. And that that's stood if you haven't insider someone who can who can start teaching Weta what those various debts are has the a compared to a startup environment or aura or other environments government. They're they're they're hiring processes Processes tend to be very Systematic Attic and follow very predictable procedures but But that you know they're they are our gain on the less and And they're not. They're not well all known to be outside of the organizations in many cases. So so I again I I really am. I relied a great deal on on this one colleague who you know who is quite experienced in regulatory in a new. A lot of the INS and outs and and help me for see and understand the process zest. I was going through excellence so I imagine anyone out there. That's interested should try to reach out maybe to someone who is in such a position and then have have coffee with them and try to you know to to to learn the ropes a little bit before before they they go into that process. Yeah and and I think that that person Ursel can also maybe help you identify them. You know what your what your trajectory is you know. How happy will you be in a regulatory environment? I knew for me that I it wasn't going to retire there. But it was a fantastic experience for me to spend five or six years Uh in that environment and And sort of broaden out my skill said increase my the breadth of my knowledge college. You know with respect to product lifecycles and so on so it allowed me to kind of develop my knowledge experience beyond the research research phase of drug development and and become knowledgeable and experienced in areas of premarket approval Post market surveillance and you know in the entire entire life cycle of of of a drought and that that's turned out to League A really really valuable experience as I moved on to other phases of my career Excellent and we'll definitely talk about them a little bit later but the the the thing that that is super interesting is that you stay close to to your domain in a way but in a totally different part of the life cycle like you were saying that. That's that's it and I was fortunate to find my way not immediately is a regulatory environments aren't always all that agile but if you're ancient You can move laterally through an organization Relatively easily if you're dynamic and you're determined and so a AH initially. I wasn't working in my in my preferred domain but eventually found my way into the oncology division at take cutic- products Director where I was able to Work in In clinical drug review in precision policy. So that that was Very rewarding part career excellent. We're now past university when we're actually talking about your first job job outside but there's still some things that I'd like to ask you about you know either Grad School but also post doc People don't see it but I see a bicycle behind mind you I. I'd like to talk about what you strategies. And what your habits during Grad School Post Doc were in terms of wellness in terms of self care what elements did you include in your routine daily that that were not you know related to your research but allowed for you to have a balanced Personal Life that that had the research on one side but then also these these have these these habits and in these experiences that were not related to your research on the other hand. Yeah he gets as a great question in one that everybody needs to each to be asking themselves. As far in this condo without tripping over bicycle would be would be be challenging for me to show show you you hear that doesn't include one. I Love was was racing. Bicycles Jaren road. Ah the and followed with every other pursued onto wheels ABADAKA. That's something that I've relied relied on my. I told my whole life and career as a kind of outlet in cling cling to sanity kind of thing in an racing in particular you know is a is a is a way to kind of focus your energies but You know an alternative way I guess and and yet he keeps you healthy at both physically and mentally active to have a pursuit athletic pursued. Especially Ashley Brother. People could be music but I think it's important to find some other passion you know Balance Work Family and and something something just for you. Imagine that if you're if you're racing you competing not today but certainly Up until recently recently. Yeah so I mentioned there's also a community that comes with that right. Yeah there isn't an IT's remarkable the number of scientists that you need to a riding bicycles It seems almost be a bit of Drive run across that had so many colleagues Both past and present. That seem to seem to have a real passion for for bicycles and for racing them and so it's a IT'S A. It's a remarkable opening. Go to this day When when you meet people because it just you know when you talk to somebody in and they realize you speak ah other language? It's a it's a great way to con to bond with people in Finder to build collaboration. Find common cause. Have you met people that you ended up collaborating with professionally on the on the bike trail. Actually yes absolutely. That's awesome and while you were in Grad school did you have any other Execute curricular activities or groups. You're part of or activities. You developed slipped bikes. Were were a big part of it now. If you were racing you probably put a lot of time into his rights. That that's it they're they didn't it didn't lead much afterwards in in those days but that was that was really a big passion excellent. I met a do still keep friends friends from back. Then the from the Rena some of my best friends today Are Are the friends that I meet at the trail head. And those are the people from Grad school days. Yes absolutely. It's a it's a bond that kind of Never never goes away right when in your war competing racing and enjoying outdoors together. It's a especially this is great. I saw the bike behind you and I had to. Last is because I think it's one of the one of the very important things When you when you're in Grad school and when you you know going after your your hd St and it gets it gets challenging at times and you have to work like X.? Number of days nonstop because you have these experiments that it's needs to work well in the NBA unit Cetera. Super important to have this other life where you have another group of people people Where you can even in your case you know because you're racing you you can kind of also clear your mind? During during this activity for other people. He could be meditation tation but anyway again I just saw the bike there and I thought this is important to talk about any other element there too. You know as as much as I've I've met people in my own professional domain On bicycles You also obviously need people who do other things engineers and and I've had as many conversations with With years in life sciences as I have with with years in in other domains the time on the bicycle as you're often especially on the road and many many hours spent together and You know you solve problems talking to people with different experiences points-of-view to against you away from your your professional gear group a little bit. Sometimes too you know it helps you build connections but it also sometimes it helps you to connect with people in other areas professionally with with her lawyers. Engineers other people who have an interest in ord and I believe all problems In that way as as well having having discussions in that setting where people are you know are thinking creatively and are doing something that they love and Where where the conversation was very close very freely? That's super interesting and as a yeah. I don't think I know anyone that really did like kind of competition sports Not during during Grad School for sure and and I'm sure there's a lot of you can you bond with people in a different way but the fact that you still meeting meeting people and the that you still have conversations that actually help you or bring solutions to that. Super Super Interesting is a lifelong sports right. All those there are some other sports at the. Don't not don't lend themselves well to you know to participation when you're in your your late forties forty exactly excellent drew We're GONNA take a little break so we've covered the part the Grad school well and the end and Pasta. I jump into something else which was regulatory When we come back we'll talk about what came after and we'll talk also about what skills the come from if I'm UPC? And you post doc. You still use today before going on meeting to view. I want to thank you for listening to the show. It's like an episode in insperity in any way to France maybe Mental health is is really a big issue now and I think one of the things people do one physical activity regularly. We can like it can fix a lot of things in their in their The personal in the well mental health is one of them But physical also just being fit right. It's it helps for sure I mean I. I couldn't imagine doing what I do do. And being sedentary it's just a it's and in fact this was You know my my my my days as a as a racing cyclist as a especially as as a junior when I was taking a lot It actually helped to shape my my one of my career interests and and opened the door for My my position at Wada Having having had a background as a as a level say a lead athlete. Because I was never that but having background that's a competitive athlete and an sport gained clearly a value Coupled with my my background in Burma cosmology. augie opened the door to physician at water. Though you know it was a combination obviously of networking and transferable transferable skills and experience but being obviously committed lifelong two to four to one was. That was a A. You know a key I think to to To leave that position excellent. The it's it's funny. How things you know that you wouldn't put on your CV per se but then end up having an effect on on on being hired or not? I wish it's crazy. Yeah Yeah every organization has has their own kind of cultural dynamic right and I think that's one of the things you have to ascertain the early on. If you decided you WANNA position is You know what's what's what's what's the prevalent attitude in that culture and It's something that you get. Is it something in you understand. Is you can appeal to and Is In alternate. Hopefully as vantic excellence is for like for some people that That I've interviewed it's been they wrote a blog on the on. Something like this person she. She now gives financial advice to to teach these in the states because it's particular with all the stipends and the taxes into and she. She started that by writing a blog on her experience dealing with that and that now became her main her main thing But but I've known people like I was like when I was in this company doing medical writing. They were hired word. Because all you you've edited even an editor on this E magazine for sure. They did all the the tests that they do for in writing etcetera but once she passed those the fact that she had that experience totally helped her of being hired. And I think it's funny because the person from personal finance he calls it the side-hustle manage will if you love something enough when you're doing it right now but if you love something enough to do it for free Nobody nobody can say that. You're not passionate about it at the U.. Willing to put your own time and resources to suspend your you know you choose to do that on weekends or evenings. It's pretty hard for someone to say that that you're not invested right. Let's through subtly true all right so now you so you were in Ottawa for or five six years and then you decided okay. I'm going to move onto something else right. Yeah that that that point my son was Getting a little bit older and In regulatory can it can feel a little bit like running in quicksand. You know after the The Hustle of a post doc. Life and I was really ready to move on to More of an outward facing role especially eager urge to understand more about you know to expand my as my understanding of of this. Whole World of of clinical oncology and You know in on the inside and regulatory environments you except for some expert advisory panels and you know a few precipitation meetings. You don't really get the occasion to Engaged with clinicians and certainly and I think that's changing now but certainly certainly in those days. I felt this I really wanted to do was was I wanted to. I wanted to be in a more over facing Rowland Poland and to to talk to people in who in clinical practice and Do something that was. That was a little bit more. Uh more outward facing more dynamic and at that time actually This is remarkable role. came up again the NBA. A A friend in in my in my network from graduate school days with the World Anti Doping Agency so you know in some ways a major turn in a dreary otherwise focus exclusively on oxygenic saving laying and disease pathophysiology and very very very much focused on on on On Cancer Biology I bought was let take a chance. This is a this is a huge risk but It's a fascinating. Maybe once in a lifetime opportunity to go work for International Agency their air d'etre was ultimately linked to or that I love which is cycling. Okay and And I bought all of always always valued valued Always valued airplanes or and a great chance for me to engage with professionals in the world of sports suitably professionals in various areas of specialty practice lend some of my own experience in molecular pharmacology ecology and hopefully in participate in Improving airplanes for excellent. So were you hired was kind of kind of because you said you had a contact where you kind of had hunted or did you still have to. Also you know show that you were the right candidates as for the position yet definitely door was opened contact made with the director let yet eight. There were one hundred hundred fifty other candidates who were were considered for the role and multiple multiple. Injured US I think by that time. Though I you know I I really evolved And hone my my skills with interviewing as as we talked about earlier had really really done a lot more reading and I felt at this point you know in my in my early forties Much more on top of my game and much more professional in terms of how I researched and saw codes positions and yet very much actively used Simulated did introduce again. Had A had or if you will or here who who was so completely on my side? desperately really wanted me to have this physician himself. You know we we did many mock interviews and we both read a AH I. I'm always in his debt for for that for role playing with me and Working together from information. We gathered to Georgia really helped me prepare for for that opportunity excellent. It's it's interesting. It's super super happy that you're mentioning role playing and and Mock interviews because you know I think especially because here. We're talking you were you. Were working for five six years in government. You know you you're like your child has gone up you're going into this process you know already had with another mindset and more more security of your capacities and of your capacity to tell your story and to be compelling but for people who are just now finishing up. You're seeing now. I'm going thing to go interview in the job market. roleplaying and mock interviewing is key. I would say Because once you have that that's That main story that once you know it by heart and you can you can do it almost on an elevator pitch on why. You're the best candidate. Then you can address the particular interests of the person's going to be interviewing you and a after having already created a good image of yourself because if brex distance yet that confidence going is so important dried If you don't if you don't possess that if you feel like you're on the limits of your impersonal comfort you're not going to be fluid you're not going to. You're not gonNA smile. You're not going to present yourself in a way. That's natural authentic so so I think it is important You know to to secure the position. you know you you have to represent yourself professionally well but after represe it yourself. Well personally as well and not so that all of those things are tied together by having a bat at confidence says that you know the the organization's mission and values You've you've read every document that's publicly available You know you. You've really taken every step you can to educate yourself about -sition even each reviewing candidates myself I'm I'm still amazed with the proliferation of Information That didn't exist. Almost be for you but when I was young in the sort of finding my way bakery wiesner pre Internet world. You know it was. It was a required a tremendous amount of research but you can sit at home In understand an awful a lot of an organization in warning browsing So if you haven't begun done that if you don't you have your due diligence in that regard than you're not ready eight Excellent again great advice now. Maybe you can fast forward and and you can kind of tell from from from that organization organization That that you just mentioned We're hoping Doping Agency you know. What was your path from there to today? Yes so On World Anti Doping Agency was a fantastic opportunity and a great opportunity to engage with Medical Professionals in the world of sport And I loved loved every minute of it international organization. The you're engaged Wicky Beers as likely to be engaged one from or or Finland as you are engaged with someone from Canada so the the you know the the opportunities to expand professional network geographically as well as in terms of understanding how other different different People outside of for me. Outside of oncology worked in in our area which was focused on therapeutic use exemption you're Working with people who practice in metabolic disease rheumatology orthopedics for -nology. You name it so it was a great opportunity and I and and I loved. I loved the experience that it that it brought me. In terms of expanding my world outside of of about Alhaji pointed again it was sort of it was apparent that To me that there was. It wasn't anywhere for me to go career wise without without moving into into another area so again through through network opportunity That identified most recently with the exact innovation as their director. Metaphors opened up and This this was again and took me back into my first and main. Love in precision oncology in a anymore petition and issued focus. Said which is what you wanted. Yeah in some ways it was. It was what I was. You know what I had always been been seeking And that easily the most challenging role. I've ever else. CBS is a very very exciting opportunity in the disruptive and tremendous tremendous opportunity to kind of expand my horizons professionally. I'd light experience knowledge. Can you can you tell the listeners. A little bit of about what you do your position their organizations to pose at a team I clinical and translational research professionals at its small organization. We're about twenty with another twenty or so who are embedded in our network sites at cancer care centers across Canada but the team is Basically supports awards coordinates. The activity of holders from from those thirteen sites across cross candidate consent solid tumor patients to comprehensive comprehensive longitudinal registry out it's called personalized light therapy so once the patient consented to bat registry than their clinical clinical molecular data all relevant clinical data are in registry and they are then candidates For consented to to clinical trials. There the organization part of the organization's role in is is is to work with an overlapping network hospital laboratories and so either at the time of consent or at a point in the disease trajectory where patients eligible wolfer trial biopsy tissue or respected tissue can be genetically profile using a pilates next gen sequencing platform. That's Ron in these laboratories so the so the somatic mutation property generated for those patients and they can be potentially matched to trials sooner running in the network. Oh excellent so he really looks like all these things that you've done you know from your post today. You make use of them in your current job. It's our the twists and turns a career pass so often take us to into the these kinds of roles. Where where there's a kind of convergence? Yeah I do see that in the medical affairs art of the work that I did in Sort of as the expert group ringleader coordinator at Wada. The clinical drug review activities and that sort of in a product life cycle overview part of a working regulatory clinical research activities That that I was engaged engaged in In eastern at Ayler all three of those components I I call on the experience and knowledge from from from all those different earlier phases rear. That's that's excellent and one thing I'd like you to to try and until the listeners is is because coming out of the PhD. One of the things people may feel as if I don't stay in academia I I will have wasted this time and I'm pretty sure that if I ask you. Are there skills of are there Abilities are their habits that you gained in Grad School and and and in new post. All that you're still use today the translate today. I think it's an unequivocal typical. Yes you know I I don't I you know I would say this is the most challenging related or had a post. Doctoral work is just it's the the most physically and emotionally challenging. I think environments and I think that's that's where most people really finding cells Dell's most explicitly tested. You know it's it's a real walk of faith to To do that so I'd I'd say that's that's one thing is that did you really learn to trust and rely on yourself and you will without question. That's where that's where he developed your your strongest work. Work Ethic and determination I would say in terms of other transferable skills that maybe don't necessarily relate to a specific area of research but for me taking every opportunity to collaborate and never leaving value on the table. Those of you lessons. I take away from my research experience that I use daily and it's extremely mainly relevant to medical affairs is especially in an environment where you're a start up where you're you're trying to look for opportunities for partnership and where you have to really relentless let's where you look for opportunities and never give up so you know I think Mikey. Hd Mentor was valuable in that sense in saying never let good works it on the bench. There's always an opportunity to see work through indeed dot closer and I think that's incredibly valuable to any organization is is someone table to start something and finish it. The pressure of publishing. I think naturally obliges academics to develop that skill set. And that's that's what I I find. This has been the thing that I that I had brought to professional position. I've academia's that people have found valuable. Komo I and I agree with you this. This is something that that is valuable to any employer I'd say and especially any employer that is looking to hire you for for a position of responsibility though the points that I think You're touching very important is once you you come come out either we do. PhD Or Post. Doc you're a highly qualified and talk about specialized because you specialize in something that maybe is not going going to interest that the employer but if you agree but highly qualified worker and you have tools that that make you Fit to work in in highly stressful work environments and deal with it With with a certain ease but also you're not afraid to con- long winded projects. And make sure that that you hit your your deadlines and that you That you deliver deliver good work at at the end. Yeah absolutely I think you know that capacity to To calculate and and do actual Louis take risks is a is a skill that every every good academic researcher at develops Almost to to the point of intuition right and I do think that that's many of the skills that you develop enough research de I think that self-reliance that confidence that have to develop in in your own offices assists inequality of your own work. You know you really a captain of your ship I don't think we ourselves enough credit for it. You know when you were into professional environments you see you in some some of those regards you know a a autonomy self sufficiency Professional National Engagement. you know all all of these things I think how east end. Above their editors. Yeah one thing that what you just said made me think about is that and I think this didn't happen with you because you got a government job in which salary is probably this probably are we standards of set. You know you got into this position which had a set salary for it but one of the things that people coming out let's say a PhD May deal with is doubt about the value of their time in how much you know how much they can expect to earn in their in their first job. Coming out of the Peachy So this this is another aspect you know. People may not value or may not give themselves enough credit in terms of what abilities they come out with but can even underestimate how much they can be worth to a potential employer and I mentioned. Some universities may already have workshops so or systems to help people to do this transition. I remember I didn't when I was asked. How much do you want to earn a really didn't know I right? I don't think you know it's one of the many professional skills that that That we don't acquire in in those settings writers is valuing being yourself And I know undersold myself Early part of my career because you become Quite naturally conditioned to subsistence lifestyle. I would I would. Certainly you know anybody who's who's looking to kind of land at first job outside of a of an academic setting definitely. That's a key area research. Is it as hard as it can. Ease Times Investigate what our What a reasonable salary expectations? There's online resources nowadays Things like Glenn Stories. One of them is a website. Where you can? You can kind of get an idea. An x-ray So to say also one thing that that I that I think is a good way to go is if you if you're able if you look at where you want to work and you're able to get in touch with someone who works out or who has worked there go and have coffee with that person and then they'll be happy to help you and to your questions. I can count on one. Hand the number of people. Let's I have in Sent thoughtful intelligent respectfully now too and they didn't respond to me you. You know when it's a fantastic sincere request for helper advice and I think that's you know that's something that everybody needs to leverage more. I wish I had done it when I when I was. Yeah same here. It's such a valuable tool in its and people. Just don't don't use use it enough that you can have insight into an organization well beyond you know the the cursory as social media websites scan right. It's so often a case that somebody's more than happy as you say to to grab a coffee and give you the inside scoop. Excellent Drew I'm almost getting to my final question but I just wanted to note something in. Tell me if I heard right but one of the things that I find really interesting about your the whole path. Is that your network and especially the networks that you that you had or the grew out of your Grad school echoed throughout the different pivots. That you did professionally. Can you comment on that. A little bit. I honestly can't think of An opportunity that I took Or a position. I held that I didn't in some way owed to Someone in my in my network personal and professional And and The friendships that you build a graduate school days. I think are the ones while these for me me personally. The ones that that still resonate most strongly and Those are I said I I really. I have have to trace every opportunity even some of the ones that we didn't speak about you know what a some part time teaching appear in my life when I was consulting all of those have In my case anyways sprung from a strong relationships and strong personal relationships relationships with people you know I think engaging with people in a way that is respectful Where you demonstrate that you have high level of integrity End that you're interested in Giving as much as receiving help and advice stress enough you know how ordinate is You know in order to you know to to help cushier propel your career law. So this is another advantage of taking part in student life when you're in Grad School for sure. Yeah Yeah I think so. Take every opportunity go to go to every seminar One really good point of advice. I had again. I wish I had done more of it earlier. On was as somehow find a way to devote an appropriate amount of time every every week whether it's two hours or four hours or whatever you can spare a yourself and you WANNA say yourself it's too you know your Own whether whether it's You Know Investigating Alternative Pass Going going to see something a seminar. That's not explicitly related to your work Keeping in touch with professional colleagues in different fields scanning winning the horizon in whatever way But I think it's as really really good advice. commit a portion of your time. You and your own personal and professional development because it's so easy you know when you're working in a demanding job whether it's off or whether whether you're at a at a director or DVD level you can we have your ambitions consumed by the organization were for. That's that's super super important advice and and yeah I can't agree more but So now I'm GONNA ask my last question and I don't know how old your son is but I like to think of you know. Students are either people who are in Grad School or considering Grad School award are just Finishing or who have just graduated And to think You know maybe put yourself in their shoes today because times have changed right but thinking you know considering your experience your path And you know all all the to learn ah ever since you finished your PhD but two or three pieces of advice. Can you give them to to help them. mm-hmm prepare the transition. You've talked already about taking two hours a week to look into the horizon. I think that's very very important. But you have a a couple more of pieces of advice for them to to be successful in their transition. Be It into their academic career but also in their into their non-academic. That's the better following. Yeah I would say following up on what we what we discussed earlier. You know I think Be Absolutely fearless Louis in your information gathering Don't don't settle regardless of where you are whether you know my son's fifteen and I'm encouraging to do this In fact we're going a couple This weekend so that he can find out What what? It's like out to be a an electrical engineer. So I would say you know be be fearless and determined in in in chatting with people in seeking out opportunities mentorship of a knowledge gathering As early as often as I'm permits an it always always found people so so happy New Year to help I think scientists especially coming back to my own personal or our personal sort of domain. I mean you know because we're we're always held to account and we're never far away from From from some episode of failure right insert served as researchers We we have Humility that makes us live out people but I found another domains too. So Yeah I would. I would say let's leverage every every opportunity audible and and don't just decide you're you're going to settle on and on one narrow area of study research career path and you know I think you don't know what you don't know I I would. I would have maybe cast a wider net. You now Earlier on in my career Just just to have a a better context on texts so that you don't get to where I was Several years into a post doctoral fellowship and then and only then contemplating what what other things did I do with this with this. Training and education excellence drew. It's been a pleasure talking with you. Thank you so much for for having been on the show What do you have some links that you'd like to share with with the listeners? If they either want to reach out Oh to you or to your organization to do this to learn about what's what's do it. Actually I bay idear at least two If anyone's interested in in the initiative and what we're trying to accomplish a easy to remember the exact Aid You see T. I S. Dot C. A. exactness UNSEE You can learn a little bit about our our initiative in what we're trying to accomplish a further Tom Our mission to improve access to precision. Oncology clinical trials for Canadian cancer patients. Yeah that's that's that's the thing we're the dead people to learn a bit more about initiative and and the courage anyone to get in touch with me if they'd like to to no more I'm going to put the website link and your Lincoln On on the show notes so I guess anyone listening can shelter drew that that way. Thank you very much thank you. It was a pleasure. Thanks for listening to another episode of the pop up each new podcast head over to Papa. Pete's DOT COM for show notes in for more food for thought about non accuse. I'll always be happy to share chair inspiring stories new ideas and useful resources here on the PODCAST. So make sure you subscribe on Itunes or wherever you get guests to always keep up with the discussion and to hear. You're from our latest guests.

Grad school PhD director Postdoctoral Canada NIH Ottawa NBA Jane I Donald Trump Translational Clinical Oncolog Papa Peachy David McGill University editor Drew Working Board Health Canada Investigator
Revisiting the Humanities PhD in 2021 with Greg Kelly

Papa Phd Podcast

57:42 min | Last week

Revisiting the Humanities PhD in 2021 with Greg Kelly

"Hi this week on top of hd. I have the pleasure of bringing you. My conversation with greg. Kelly executive producer of ideas on cbc radio during our conversation greg shares of very colorful recount of his experience in oxford as literature. Phd student and talks about his post hd career choices injury. Greg is a great storyteller. So i think you'll really enjoy this one happy listening now. Many people not many not when jets are rejection from shirk. It's an envelope of just a letter size along when it's an acceptance you get a package made by ten and i can see in the k. Box there was stood still. I was absolutely flat. Absolutely nothing by should have been jumping out of my skin and zero. And so i talked to. I had some older friends at officer. Also students there. aspiring academics. I talked to my moment doubt. And i returned the post doc on Not called do it. And i speculate and there must be some culture that has a turn fort we in the west isis splice the psyche and all these different ways clogged of unconscious. What have you and But i think this a part of us knows before the rest of the snows. And it's like you're catching up to that thing and you say we i decide. Sometimes we say. I came to decision. I came to a conclusion. And i think that can intrigue is much more accurate. It is as though i arrived. Finally after a what do i do well. That's not really the issue or what. I got this money. That's not really the issue. Oh do you want to do it or not. Are you called to you or is it. Not and It wasn't it wasn't and so. I had to arrive to that. Welcome to pop. Up each with david mendez the podcast where we explore careers and life after grad school with guests who have walked the road less traveled and have unique stories to tell about how they made their place in the world of constantly evolving rules. Get ready to go off the beaten path and hop on for an exciting new episode of papa phd. Welcome to this week's episode of papa peachy. This week i have the great pleasure of having with me. Greg kelly greg. Kelly took his doctorate in literature at oxford university. He has worked at. Cbc radio and television as well as the united states in europe and has won international awards claiming both media. Greg is now the executive producer of cbc radio ideas. Welcome to pepsi greg. I david be here. I'm super happy to have you here. you you The person who told me to reach out to you Was paul who has been a guest on the show and I'm i'm really really eager to share your story with the listeners and to to to also share your journey of how you went from european in literature to what you do today so just to start i. I'd like to ask you too may be because i really quickly you know introduce you just asked you to add one more one or two more pieces of the puzzle of you know how you got a you know how you came to do a phd and then what were the steps that brought you and then we'll we'll tell the story bit by bit. Okay well i guess. I decided to pursue a doctorate because i was experimenting with the idea. Perhaps becoming an academic. I didn't know really But at the time the subject of my interest was oscar wilde back then in the mid to late eighties. Scholarship unwound was absolutely execrable. It was just awful. Which leaves you route to take him on. This would have been way at the beginning maybe even slightly before the rise of irish studies. I gay studies and It was the same Possibly of good scholarship. That led to great literary biographer. Richard ellman to begin writing his massive and groundbreaking vile on all throughout the last that he ever published before he died and he was dying writing it and so It would seemed to be in the air ground songs just starting to have been in of course literary theoretical circles attention to language and the operations of language were off very much in the four and wild is everything by which i mean just just is his use of paradox to counter the orthodox on And how power gets embedded into into into uses of language and so on and so It seemed like the playground was open and ready to be occupied and played in. And so that's okay and So can you talk a little bit. So you Where you came from you know you travel to oxford from where warwick what game. What was it the previous chapter. Let's say i did my undergraduate in interdisciplinary studies and literature at york university. And then i did an m a a combined mate university toronto and york university jointly offered in victorian studies and that masters. You had an option. You could do a two courses and a thesis and that could take two years you could do about a little over a year three courses and an extended paper or you can do four courses. I did four courses in eight months. And i produced about the equivalent of pg volume of work Not just in terms of output so it was grinding and it was grueling and and also the commuting between your conveners of in the winter buses and subways this stuff it was grinding and made me physically ill at one point i have to say but it was very good odd to keep your eye on the prize which was to op scotch as it were off to oxford. Wild himself was an undergraduate where the bodleian library as a copyright library anything published in. Britain has to by law be there or to be made available there and so. I can look at first editions. Wild booker anybody's without our and So's an research possibly in the master's year which was extremely difficult a grind as i keep site pounding Alive me what was. It was a difficult hand to play but it was the one that got the bigger hand which was oxford. That's interesting because I people have a another another story that the masters is an is an important step before the pta. Also find out whether the picchi something you want to pursue. But i'm wondering it seems like a very active masters Can you talk about the what the dynamic was with your supervisors. What what was the fuel that that allowed you besides your health that you're already said that kind of suffered but On the side of how how. Your masters was organized to allow you to have such production at the end of it and then to jump to to oxford while it was four seminars and and two different locations so the university of toronto and and your candidacy so on and The professors will grade They were teaching things themselves. Were interested in whether it was. You know Certain features of victorian poetry or victorian thought and religion and science in victorian england ruskin and hardy and it was one other course that i've gotten and i know it was it was Literature in history the The tendentious relationship between the two. Ma what what can enfold the other. Someone and i'm And so the. It gave a very grounding for entering into doctoral particularly in the british system. It is solitary different solitaire. It is expected that you'll know what you need to know. If you don't know you fail so An unlike the north american system is all of this structure perhaps over structure where you've got to do mandatory courses. You have ranted samsonov committee at a place like oxford this none of that not and so not many meaningful year and intends to weed itself out a sub brilliant people followed by the wayside. Either problems they were having or just didn't want to do what have you and The impetus to continue and to get. It was what you put. My mother's generation would have called the fear of god by seeing people who were so much you know who had more brains than the new to do with one every fellowship and scholarship imagine superstar supervisors which is not always a good thing on and Follow drift away and it's not like oh screw this. I don't like this and i'm going to do that now. It was this fade. Lack kind of is one canadian guy. A brilliant brilliant sickly as a kid asthmatic And a very bookish gifted and was coming out as a young gay man and then would take up smoking as at the same time that he was taking a step forward would take this pretty self destructive step backwards and i saw him just fade away. He exhausted his finding. He got to work in bookstore in london at so in books about obscure french from theory that nobody cares a. A and an. I thought my god. I'm not doing that. I would rather fail. I'd rather have the examiners urinate on my thesis fronted than than just fade way. i'd rather lose on the plainfield. Then just be this half formed contour on the sidelines. I do people who just bag it. All i'm there was a fellow in in my cohort in a doctoral program at oxford was interested in doing something on merton wouldn't let him say just notes him and he was doing a lot. There's a lot of student theatre oxford Rich that way and he was doing that only comedy and he got some nibbles back into some talent glasgow back to scotland and he and he kept. He left the doctoral program because it really wasn't his thing and he went to something and his name is monday. It should keep became the knows producer. Feet and stalin did incomparable mortgage. So the lesson there is you. Don't leave something. We'd go to something and i was determined. I would rather. I'd rather get on the gloves. That go into the ring. With examiners came down to the justice kind of kinds they raised self array shifts. It's it's really interesting. What you say and before i wanted to talk about maybe i'll talk about a little bit later about this thing of deciding. Okay now i'm going to move continents and move countries and going to completely different culture like you said even the academics like you said but this story of fading away I just listened to a series of episodes of podcast episodes infringe about People who who quit their phd for different reasons. And i think it's it's a reality that still out there. But and i think there's many reasons for that a lot of them institutional of you know how much is demanded from impeach. The students and i believe because i come from the stem space. And it's very much structured everywhere. Did there's a structure that's needed to have a lab to do that to do scientific research on biological models etc. Which is what i did. But i have a feeling that from the conversations. I've had with with phd's in literature and humanities in social sciences that like you said it's more of a solitary exercise. I'm not sure how funding happens. And i've heard i've been told that in france at least there's a lot of people that are doing without funding and got yeah and Can you talk a little bit about. What's and maybe i. I don't know if you're if you're in touch with you have your thumb on the pulse of phd's in literature today but you think things have changed and people are better. are better surrounded by resources and You know because what you tell is is is very bleak in a way especially this example of of the stars and who faded away Because we were talking about oxford innocent. Arcane institution and culture in these places tends to be very rooted in the past and not to change very easily and. I wonder whether you have an inkling of what what things are looking like today. I do actually. I know a couple of kickoff still there. Okay and the metaphor i'll give you. Is the bodleian library itself where When you needed to look up a publication you had to go to a certain section of the bodleian library and there'd be these giant tones huge huge folks that were about the size of probably Elbow to the typical middle finger. I'm be an about as thick as As the length from the basic prompted finger books. Huge shot old brown discolored. You open them up and strips of a And in handwritten notes authors last name comma name or initials and the title and a bit of other coated information. That you would write down on a slip. And you'd have to submit to the desks called up from the underground stands and it was divided mysteriously into pre nineteen twenty nine and post mighty and when the option of was being tabled. I was there in the mid eighties mid eighties. Ladies and right then and there. The option was being to computerize the entire system. And the powers that. Be the augusts white-haired self-styled senatorial committee in charge of these things. Decided against about time against digitizing because this computing they could be found. It could be a passing so that and that's all changed It's up to speed so it just and the way we'd put it a friend of mine who taught there that oxford got dragged kicking and screaming the twentieth century. Right when we were starting to twenty. I am i okay okay. So so things have finally changed was okay though at that is good news and i and i see movement in universities at least around me that shows things are changing but it's these are huge a historical often entities. And there's there's a lot of inertia and there's there's a lot of tradition one of the david strikes me but a place like oxford. And i'm sure it will be the same of the sorbonne or what have you. He's much older established elites or quote unquote early. Take your preference. Is that If you're looking for ways to that you'll find immediately. You're stupid people in place there plenty of people in positions saudi. Who don't belong there. You will find them. You will also find people who justify the reputation of being elevated as will find that too. But the the other thing could find i think is certain facets of the institution which are imitation but self now oxford is a collegiate system and what i found is that the bigger mark established wealthier colleges were less pretentious less stuffy less caricatured and the smaller ones. Which were you'd see much more often. People cultivating that oxbridge eccentricity. That that that kind of you know willful. Ignorance of current events or popular culture. Or what have you that kind of. Two dimensional character constantly in movies and books and so on that does exist. But it's like an imitation of itself. It's not real. Why certain when you get talking and there's a huge division between graduate and undergraduate undergraduates looking in college The the it's very clear. There's a menu of stuff whether it's is to the roaring. What have you. it's very very Tight not necessarily organized. But it's all around you it's live curricular and if you don't go to all of the things in the first month whether it's not fair where this hobby club without hockey to all of these clubs. Net cities represented and certain number of receptions organized. But if at the end of october you haven't established activities or social life yourself. You're kind of screwed for the next three years. And so it's a very disparate set of realities but among the graduates to bestow The way i put it was everybody seems to arrive. Did not sir looking for the mythological oxford which does end does not exist the same time but you find each other you will eventually find each other and so for example i played parking is talking okay. I could never make canadian to the only hockey dressing. I've ever seen copies of toss company tallin As you know there are two or three players were pretty good and the rest of us had sticks in our hands if you have an air skates in policy. Probably make the team and The people i know from that team. I still know. So that the the the real auction which doesn't insist becomes real to the people that you need but somehow not of thing that you were kind of looking for some kind of vaguely elevated magical thing there elements of that but really what you end up doing bumping into people have similar on a similar quest. That is on the path. That's that's really interesting. And i often mentioned being barred of a sports club or theater group or something that creates community And where he students. Who are not in your lab or even in your institute important as a key thing As because i do feel that going to university going to grad school is a privilege in a certain aspect. And that's why also when you leave academia in a way. There's a grieving that that happens because you're leaving this family and the space that this that has this yeah and identity. Time runs at a different pace and penal you. There's a lot of discussing ideas versus if you're in the world. Well maybe there's less of that and more doing things or at least i am simplifying but i do feel do. I am very thankful for the time. I had a in graduate school and and also for the people i have met there and now it's interesting because what you just said makes me want to talk about this aspect of what the repercussions the repercussions are of going through grad school of meeting these people. What's what's ten years later. Twenty to thirty years later. What does that look like. And and it feels that from what you said. You're still in contact with these people. I don't know if you collaborate with this with with the people you played hockey with but how you know. And why i'm asking. This is because people might think that academia and the world are to airtight compartments. But i believe that it's the of the people we cross paths weedon. We develop friendships with at in relation relations with in grad school. These relations are what stays. And and that's that's a can make Anyway can enrich your your life later on i. I'm not being clear with questioned but my question is and i think you've already mentioned that this way. Maybe it's not worth asking is how important you think it is to not stay just in the lab doing your research but yes to to be part in these groups in these activities. When you're in graduate i think it's i knew a a patrician young woman from saint louis who had like a strange names all connected by you. Know madeleine albright dependent. I came from one of the very slightly on the humorous schumer less side. I quite liked her and At times she was overly continuous with her reasoning. She came from a medical background but wanted to go to oxford. Do the al-ajeen ethics alone return and finish off a medical degree. And she was a committed christian very trim. Proper of A woman who would. I don't ever him she would say now. Golly very intelligent but you can kinda get an image of her and Playing trivial pursuit. The question came up. What is a nihilist. And she said well. Augustine said you know you're it's already over. Augustine said that there those who believe that the universes created from nothing. Xt hello and those who believe it was created from something ex rates. And so i would have to say analysis someone who believes since the univers- created from nothing. Now madeleine is somebody who just doesn't and you have to you know so there's kind of under everyone island would say something really really insightful. And one that i won't forget is that She saw that. I had a little copy. A little portrait on a biography of very pocket-sized not much bigger than a cell phone of dante says. Oh i thought you didn't ask up. I said yeah. I just don't know much about dont'a in a starting to be some As she took a breath blocked off. horizons this is what i love about. People in the manley's they'll just do things 'cause they're interested in it's interesting. Is this growth. I i guess. I swim in that water so i don't feel it. I don't see it. But she did. And i think she i think she's bang onto something because you know even on a practical thing The english aren't known for their cuisine and much has changed since the thatcher era. A lot has changed but institutionally back in the eighties out of college. It was food. You wouldn't give to starting dark. It was an absolutely appalling over-boiled spaghetti that would fall four with roast potatoes. As as though there's a shortage of starch something so you better stock up absolutely appalling. High table is a different matter. Weezer shops imported from france. And so on and is a class distinction of course a high tape commentators and And i had never beaten vegetarian and so when you get together and cook. The best vegetarian coppola had in. My life was in england. Other students who had made the decision to dissuading lives. And did it properly like absolutely gorgeous stuff that you'd concocted these small kitchens cookers in all of this kind of stuff and on and And of course conversation ensues and And it's that could use image of a kind of pinball effect of bouncing off all of these things and somebody always knows somebody and then you find these extraordinary people one of whom is what was he doing. There's actualized area of scientific research is also First violinist i think lavar castro and at this sort of sense right these these not hidden talents. Just stuff that you wouldn't have known and that artists extorting. It is absolutely crucial that people get out of their study. Study carol or their lab and bump into others doing something because otherwise it gets it's it gets to iceland and you know it's been said the reason why do pure research not just applied this because you don't know what will lead to and it's the same principle No i agree. I agree totally in. It's it's kind of a and plus also it can can have positive effects on your research because of these bouncing ideas and these rights. Yeah assorted rupp In the okay. I don't make the middle common at my college. Harvard college looks as though it's spelt hereford college english hearts written after our hearts you. Universal like deer like animal and the Middle common room is where graduate students allowed to hang out in and there was a lower one and thank god through american students. There's somebody who somebody apple on so they get things done and kind of snaring anti-american that i see even now Aren't secured me of that of that little brother syndrome You know americans got stuff done. It just did the gone done. And so we ought these waves of of what would that. What was it called. Max could god. What were they with macintosh computers and and which made writing is so much easier than footnoting capable of you have to type anymore right on that cost right from typing tillered processing so call and another guy who entered oxford in my year. German gone german jewish guy. Who's doing a lot of studies and just happen to be very very on top of his ancient greek well. Oscar wilde was greek scholar classics and then leaked one. We won a fellowship to get over to scholarship to get over to to oxford from his native dublin and And so wild. Wrote a series of lasser known books that are income poems and prose some of which riff off of biblical stories could so for example You know we. We all know the curricula. Pant altering the woman who who is going to be stone for adultery. Almost never made clear if she didn't and so well wilde's version of it are on. When asked why she's doing this. she says. Well it's pleasant unlike it and there's this sort of silence and so it kind of takes to step in terms over and At certain junctures character is said to To to turn to be turning an i can. I can remember from an undergraduate course. The phrase repents n. be saved. And there's been bloodshed over. If you recant we are safe or these. Two distinct processes must repent and you must be saved and being saved entails a whole bunch of other things so is is it a conjunction or disjunction and so It turns out. I think if i've got it right. The the language of the new testament chronic rink That was in circulation a practice. In what now on palestine turn Was pointing and so there's alex the biblical scholar and i was talking about some of the stories that matter moya so what we have met annoy. It needs. It needs to turn. It means it's got that repent and you're turning a one eighty timid and a so under a couple of flourishes like that this is all really footnote but it enriched the arguments and it was interesting. And that's not. That's because alex sat on the other table across from me but two arms lengths away to his things i was doing mine and a little bit of cross pollination not to mention the moral support just despite slogging it out around the same time you know. That stuff is really hard to overestimate that. Kind of not consciously constructed support network or it doesn't feel like a support network when you're in support it does not feel that that's just a term that people use and its overuse by administrations all kinds of stuff however the reality of it cannot be underestimated just to be a as i say putting together typing it out getting the chapters dumb and so on i think alex actually truthfully mine no another another guy. Jet and i would have had the media and the greek veteran. Ms ms outs would have happened. No it's it's interesting. Yeah but this aspect of community. I think i i think it's it's clear enough that if you felt that you feel that it was really important. I think at this point of the conversation. I'd like to go to so you get to oxford. You want to do this work in this field. That is still hasn't been touched or just very little. Which is oscar wilde and you. You've wanted to become a imagine. Oscar wilde scholar later on but then the us go on and what happens by the end of the phd. And and you know what's the reality is the realization that comes in terms of empire. My not going to go into this by becoming scholar while. I can remember the very moment when i decided. Now i'm not gonna do this and further The background is that again in the mid eighties especially french theory was very dominates. Who code day. Dawn said An i would even say. Oppressive systems have thought were important to be. I suppose challenging various orthodoxies about truth meaning and so on. But i found they became thrown off the dock sees an and function very similarly among intellectual class the way popular music or rock bands too much younger than lessons. A social market. And also i think the institution institutional recent slide is really arcane recondite obfuscating vocabularies got professionalized list. A whole meal of mindset was stopped at the same time that we were getting trickle down economics and anti essentially economic survival of the fittest also getting publish or perish. They needed a professional caviar. I was getting very disenchanted with a and board and growing contempt for the which is still hot. now i think there was no justification for this time configuration at the relationship between the writer. I find it very very on scenario. That i do not. Oh it to attempt clarity given to me to figure me out having none of it and resolute bolt. it's stuff. I don't so i had a relationship with a unamerican at auction off to berkeley i was thinking maybe pursuing a second doctrine at stanford and Partly maybe to pursue things with her. We've broken up got. It's divided by that whole. Forget it this yoyo thing and I'd gone home for part of the summer. I was gonna sit for my. Gre's to get into grad school in states and didn't notice to want to do that but i was practicing us up at seven in the morning. I was doing those exercises. I sent off my check. And i was gonna sit the thing and then i thought i know and i'd also plied for shirk a canada council kind of post doc. While before i returned to oxford. I get my check with turn by pencil so i couldn't sit the gre's and now i wasn't going to Isn't going to do get to oxford quite downcast. It's the end of the summit so the undergraduates are not in full force in the with us until october Quiet kinda rainy very moody. And i walk up the stairs to the middle common room which opened faced mailboxes and k. My last kelly. Kate happened to be more or less than the middle now. Many people many may not that when you get a rejection from the shirk. It's an envelope a just a letter sized when it's accepted you get a package need by ten on float and i can see in the k. Box there was that envelope. I stood still on the stairs else's or stone stairs kind of mustang Levels of bobby steps book and i just stood still. I was absolutely flat. Like absolutely still got not numb. Kind of Song nothing. I should have been jumping out of my skin and zero and so i of course i went through the rituals that you have to talk to buy. I had some older friends at oxford. Also aspiring academics. I talk to a moment. Dodd and On from and i returned the post doc it would have been twenty three thousand dollars i think renewable for two to three years and looking at stanford and. I thought i'm not doing this not called to do it. This is. I should have been. And i speculate and there must be some culture that has a term foreign me in the west isis. Splice the psyching. All these different ways with unconscious. What have you and But i think there's a part of us that knows before the rest of us knows and it's like you're catching up to that thing and you say the i decided but sometimes we say i came to decision. I came to the conclusion. And i think that injury is much more accurate. It is though i arrived finally after. Or what do i do all of us. Not really sure or when it got this money. That's not really the issue all a do you want to do it or not. Are you called to do is you or is it not and It wasn't it wasn't and so. I had to arrive to that and as as my mom said you know. You don't need to worry about the next step. Just finish what you came to finish what you came to do. My dad said just because they're just because it's available doesn't should so so what off fell away. I didn't need to do it and it wasn't an angry thing was us note on to how this it was like. No i'm at the end at the end of this I can do this. But i'm just doing it by default not out of purpose of desire. I don't believe in what i'm doing writing articles two three people but something items even care about. I'm not doing left. It for the stability of journals being johnson stadium like you said you left for another project so i i it feels like especially i would have felt like you've my parents would have told me what your parents told you. I would have been a relief for sure if the gut feeling was that. When you said of why this is not my wife. My wife is not that i get it and i and i think in a lot of people listening might also identify with that because one of the things that i often ask is there is. What wouldn't someone when you're in graduate school and you you're leaving and you're not going to for post doc. Those who are you know. There's the that can be there people that i've talked with who had people questioned them. But but why are you doing it or are you sure and like placing pudding doubt on on what you just said and making you question your decision And there can even be criticism of your your your You know you either you either. You're not good enough for this or you're you're you're a quitter or etc etc. But here i think what said that's very important. Is this thing of coming to this realization. That was that your your body was feeling in a way but your mind. Wasn't there yet. I had to catch up yet to catch up. And and i think it has with values. I think it has to do with finding your your y in life. And i think it's important for people listening that if you're why isn't there it you can be putting yourself in a lot of trouble and even mental health problem if you go into this path and it's and your y is not is really not there because you won't be doing for someone else and eventually it'll tire you it will. It will wear mt empty you out. Yeah and that occurred. I had only one shop to complete it by them. And i'm now in my simul year and identity listening took on a new. How many i attitude for christmas. And therefore then from christmas onwards and It allowed me to just while it. Of course it's bone bone-jarring to go through something like that and and the other thing is you've been a student all your life you'd have been ordered for being a good mole your life. Your identity is wrapped up in his and further your wendy's wrapped up in the process. I am do adopted. That's not. I have done one is not i wanted it is i am doing. It's the continuous presence. So that there's a built in fear finishing because if you finish within the i am doing is done in a certain sense. You're done you are. You are extinguished. And there's a kind of kind of vague but nevertheless overarching fear of finishing. And so but like i say than around that time i saw what happened to Infant peter and some others Thought screw this. I'm i'm i'm going to My job is not to shake the foundations of western civilization. Finish the doctorate. That's what i don't get it right. Get it written like all of this kind of stuff and it just started. And so did i think i got three chapters stunned before christmas or or what's so maybe i think was maybe three or four and then i knew by february like essentially a chapter a month kind of thing donald kinds of research and get it done. Get it done. So i did And that's what i'd set up to do was i. It wasn't really that i was looking for a job at the end of it. And i was lucky i was in a position. Had the fellowships and scholarships that supported me but in in that So the existential crisis really wasn't one and at the end of it it. It was a what did you go there for. Walk real to learn and to have this huge adventure that you can't do later you can't do. We've got a house you've got children and apartment you've got a job whatever really can't or i can't imagine south at least nothing the same way not being in a in a cloudy not. That's not free. It's not the same austrians where you can just call on your bike and go to that because you know those friends part. They're talking about their unpublished novels. Which by the way they have since published and And so on and and That kind of eased to that freedom and flexibility. Well of course you can't adulthood descends whether or not you want to and so you can't. So so what did. And so. I ended up answering the first principles which got articulated at the end. I so i didn't have to go off and get set or or a second doctor to copy. I didn't have to do any of that. Stuff is just finished this thing and then and then wait-and-see and it's okay to wait this okay not to know. It's it's okay not to feel okay. Okay not to feel okay. You don't have to now take. The pressure wanted The two so this question of not knowing and accepting the uncertainty. I think he's really important and again. If you wanna feel cozy and you just stick around because that's where you feel safe you may run into trouble later on. Yeah now what i. I'm gonna ask question. Is you have time to go on a little bit more. Because we've done the forty minutes. But i think yeah. I have to the bottom of the hours that okay or or thereabouts about seven. Ten minutes minutes is seven to ten is perfect seven tenths perfect because okay so not now at this point you you have this mission of finishing and you finish and you don't know what's coming next and and you've already said that you were okay with that because i guess you had this mission of finishing of defending rights You defended in in oxford so it was a view what is the viva. They call it. What was either the five hundred. Now after the -vivor what how did you get your first gig doing. And you talk about journalism. Was that it right away. And how did it happen. Ought to present yourself as a beach the in literature share and again. This is this thing about getting out of your bubble because it's the connections that you can't predict which leads you in the series of contingencies to what it is and it's all contrived it's all so I got back to canada. I i needed money eventually. proofreading harlequin. I did with my doctorate on which sounds funny. I did make a doctorate. But but when you're doing it's degrading Because it's just so boring the writing socially the money's not great and what am i doing so but you need to do it right so a guy. New canadian was having dinner and cabbage town. At the dinner was a neighbor of the family is that neighbor would get ideas. Said i've a friend who's interested in broadcasting who said. Oh okay so we met. She's an ex academic got into documentary. Making okay we met and it was serendipitous that we met but it was at cross purposes this entire launch until the last five minutes. I wanted to know how she made the transition from academia broadcasting and documentary making. She thought i had a specific episode. Pitch takes pitches come from people and so we were talking in this bizarre kind of it just was different planets. Different planets have is pleasant and it was great it was and and And she eventually said look. We're having a meeting next week to determine all the freelance projects that are gonna take on once you catch so tap dance. I said well he's been seeing like this. I think he's really like that. And i think that the that is the way he uses language. And i think we should put him on trial again. While had three trials lucille ball and verse. But i think a kind of a trial where where we look at him again. Okay and i typed something up got it to and that became my first broadcast. Would which sent led a semi becca died. And so i- pitched a series on beckett. So i was freelancing for them and then somebody at a daily arts program on extended pregnancy even than a got would like that. And that's kind of this this moving forward but walking backwards kind of motion that led to all of it happened so yeah those connections and indeed when i was in amsterdam and radio. Netherlands had been cut by seventy. That's seven zero percents and the program. I was working on died on the vine. I was still working elsewhere trading. Instead it was clear in your cut by seventy percents. We'd better start looking at me. We're being told that your institution is going to die. That's being told so. Am i told my wife a. I don't know. I think the only thing that seems to be interested in his ideas. But it'd be wants to so that was november when program is working on died on the vine. I'm still working. At radio. Lands on this thing but check out mentally and in april. I got an email in somebody i'd kept in touch with its citizens saying interim year long executive producer borrowed by is retiring. Tamang get your name. Lumpen bang bang. Bang bang those connections. It's keeping cultivating keeping alive. Cause he liked them and then you never know never know it opens up more contingencies opened them up. so now we're reaching the end of the interview. And you mentioned this person you had a dinner with. She was an an x. Academic who was now at cbc. Are there a lot of people. The sierra you that have you pursued studies to a certain level. A lot of academic refugees at cdc raiders can drink refugees. I love it and so okay so my follow up question is clearly. You know you're passionate. You were passionate about oscar wilde. Your you've now done worker you know on on other teams that you mentioned samuel beckett but you know you did take. These studies quite far These other people have to and now you're in this situation this entity creating content What do you feel. The this academic refugee background brings to the teams. These people are in. And what i'm thinking is if someone is out there listening who feels that okay. I'm finishing my hd. But i want to maybe go into media But you know. But i wondering am i going to be appreciated are my is the work. I've done going to translate into something can you can you. Maybe talk about that a little bit. What do you bring as someone such a background in the teams that you're part assured projects that your shirt on occasion. It is the knowledge that he brings to the table on something talking about something and it's actually i can be on that panel because i happened to. There's that that doesn't happen frequently. What is more operative is Perseverance If you have done a doctor you have probably faced down that long dark night of the salt. I can't do this. I don't i don't i'm not quite a cat. Whatever you have wrestled that demon down to the ground at least long enough to get the thing done. Perseverance is absolutely crucial. I think in anything and kind of attitude. That what you're gonna do thoroughly you're not gonna do have half half ass. Yeah and so I think perseverance and thoroughness in that order. that You've developed a kind of emotional and psychological count lar- if you've gone through a doctor and that's it's not necessarily the content what you've learned it may or may not apply. Maybe it's maybe it's you know marketing green energy. That is a thing that you're going to be doing. It has nothing to do with the quantum mechanics that studies. Maybe the does. But it's not the content it is it. Is the relationship that you brought to the work at hand and the people around you and those things do export very. I agree and just to finish as the of advice for for people who are listening. You've mentioned that your way into what you think today was to freelance and And before that this you know you just heard about this book which is called start. Ugly which is which i think is a great idea. Which is don't you can't finish. Pg and think now. I need to go up in society in whatever and if you transitioning to another space you might have to go down a little bit and and accept something. That's not perfect to then work your way up but this is not what i really wanted to ask of. You is to tell people what they can do to to Do the first steps of becoming maybe a an. I'm thinking of your domain a good candidates for something that resembles what you do. So you mentioned Eh do doing editing or revision. I remember exactly the term that's used but there's that and there's how do you talk to people who are hiring and and explain that yes you have. Hd yes it's not required for the position but you're the man or you're the woman for that position. Well you know if a person wants to like a career abia. It may not be the wisest thing to be choosing right now. It's influx in flux volatile. It's always been difficult. It's hard to know as much chart so you might wanna think of having it as at least to begin with passion projects so that you are the person to write that article and when you pitching yourself or pitching why would that obligation website. Tv show want this thing that you're offering no what is that they do and show. How would you propose in fits into what they do. I get if you ever looking. You know I'm a very hard working personally. I can't do anything with that. But when i get a pitch. Did you know that. there's this celebrated pro feminist poet from the sixteenth century in france. Who may not have written word of what should celebrate for boom okay and this person has a doctorate in french literature. She knows who committee while now now. She's demonstrating that she understands what the program does and that. She's a person who could do. Stand is thing that's consistent with undesirable from my point of view. So think of yourself. If you're on the other side of the table so to speak why would you wanna hire yourself and if you answered that question. You're about three steps ahead. That's awesome greg I've really enjoyed this conversation and I really enjoyed the your outlook on all of this in an and talking also about the evolution of things we're talking. We're talking about oxford. My i am not a lit. You know literary Mind per se. But i do i. I did have a phase where i followed a stephen fry lots and heard and i believe i saw the movie where he plays oscar wilde. Yeah yeah and I've i've heard for sure. Talk about us. Go wild in i find it It was interesting to travel in time to that time. Where you were you were you. Were going into the jungle. And you're going to find these new this new space of of what you know. Who else was what what he has returned. Why it's et cetera. It was really really interesting to do that. And he was also great to to have kind of a view of especially in your domain. What things are looking like what people can do to to To such an interest in in what you do now if people were were interested by story and they want to reach out to you. What's the best platform to do. So greg dot kelly. At cdc dot ca okay. Perfect and I will share that in the show notes also for sure. I will share a link to a two ideas. A is there anything else you'd like to share with the listeners. that maybe an ongoing project or something that's coming up Not really just ideas matter. Listen to the program We speak about ideas. What's starting to realize this. How ideas speak through us. And that's where the fun is excellent. Well greg thank you so much for having been on papa. phd and I think The listeners will have lots to to take from our conversation and all the best for your projects in again. Thank you thank you david. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for listening to another episode of the papa. Peach podcast head over to pop each dot com for show notes in for more food for thought about non-academic post grad careers. I'll always be happy to share inspiring stories new ideas and useful resources. Here on the podcast. So make sure you subscribe on itunes or wherever you get guests to always keep up with the discussion and to hear from our latest guests.

oxford greg Oscar wilde david mendez papa peachy Greg kelly greg Richard ellman Wild booker york university picchi samsonov committee hockey Greg Kelly bodleian library lavar castro cbc radio Augustine hereford college david
Episode 7: Filipa Carreira Barbosa  Navigating the International Student Experience

Papa Phd Podcast

47:36 min | 2 years ago

Episode 7: Filipa Carreira Barbosa Navigating the International Student Experience

"Many of US leave home for Grad school to another city or even to another country some and up staying after graduation some ended up coming back home being an international student can be an experienced in freedom and independence but the fact that you're far from family and friends may be challenging aging especially if you're having problems or if you're having difficulties adjusting to a new place to a new culture this episode Philippa Carried Abbasi. We'll tell us about how she went abroad for. Hd How she coped with the shift and found balancing Grad school and about how she moved back home and transitioned into science communication and science outreach while staying in close contact with scientists in her domain welcome welcome to papa PhD with David Mendez. The podcast where we explore careers and life after Grad school with guests who have walked the road less traveled and have unique stories to tell about out how they made their place in a world of constantly evolving rules get ready to go off the beaten path and hop on for for an exciting new episode of Papa Peachy before we dive into today's Today's episode. I just want to let you know that I've prepared for you a resource sheet to help you take a snapshot of your current situation and start defining your profile for the job market in your areas of interest you can download it by visiting Papa. PhD Dot Com and following the instructions in the website footer welcome to the show today we will be discussing non academic careers with Philippa Kereta Barboza Philippa is a scientist and science communicator. She's passionate about about sharing the wonders of science and the process of research with different groups of people and through all sorts of Media Philippa deter repeatedly studies at university college London on Zebra Fish. She's worked at communications offices in research centers and education centers in Portugal and in the UK and besides Institutional Communication Gatien responsibilities. She has developed and put in place several outreach and public engagement projects in the biomedical science domain. She's also taken part in several non formal education projects from preschool to secondary education hopefully per. I need it so please tell us a little more about yourself off and about what you enjoy the most about science communication and science outreach so I'm Bessette for my work. I love to engage each time communicating what they do what they stabby and what matters to what the scientist non-scientists so. I've developed a I am founder of scientists occasional project called when their science and they develop different different outreach projects to to awareness in defense biomedical fields so and so I work as a scientific scientific officer communicator in different workshops that teach Israel I I teach at blue softener. It's very bringing engaging in rewarding experience. I I also do Torrijos in different fields of science biochemistry microbiology So I love everything insides but what I really like to do is to transmit tie-in to other are there people that are not scientist at least the ones that are not converted and don't like so much science and try who do make make times more killing. Mr She affects you. Try to do this task but it's sometimes hard than each. It's the Indian Portugal is not easy because it needs a lot of different kinds of skills marketing skills and all these kind of pills that I am so my education. I did my PhD AT UCLA L. on our with a goal Bankin student go bank and he's a private foundation that helps that keeps scholarships. I to be students in an so. I sacked my PhD human portal. I did one ear of the different studies in science it was very rewarding mediator decides to go to London London to do my PhD in the bench using Zebra fish and the Embraer Janati cool very cool do and and so you had that first year of seminars and of course is in Portugal and then you went to to London years years my degree here at the studio of lease rent Dan we had the five years degree agree what one on one year doing research lab that gave me tools to what is really research and then all people were talking about Rathcoole Beijing and all I'm I cannot do it is for brains for people who know a lot and I decided to and I said but I'm sending a letter just I'm. I've finished my degree until I don't know if I want to go. Science is more or forgot. I want to to be a teacher or to be a I don't know what to do. I'm going to have a break now. Our into the interview selected me but I know that they interviewed everyone will send the letter so I was like a interview. Dangerfield was about the only only question they make me about being. Sassy was what you seem will your quality to be scientist said curious but I've just about everything racing and then we talk about films and about Arby's and stuff like that so well an-and the tongue I was in the beach end the call me said you were separated enough at all my and saw so yes and I had the one year full of courses in different fields narrow science micro-biology Biochemistry Plant Cell Development L. months every different kind en weeding we did the evaluation invests back to you in by we'd we just it was like an NBA baking giant discussed wears and stuff like that so it was good fun. I'm any different excellent and and so I guess after that first year you were like supercharged to you go and do your research and and that's when you decided to go to London. I guess yes I decided I decided to go go to to London because of my am I have a huge bond with my mom and my mom wanted to seek seizing London during the Beatles Joel's during the details moment and so I decided like Oh family from my a father's side's their their their English born myong-chol English dilemmas and it's easy. It's the same time zone so I can call and everything so it's fine to never seen until so. I was like an for me. London was like Oh. I've been there when I left fourteen for my first time. I was fascinated said Oh unreal. I was scared I was really scared. I was really excited to go. There was some anxiety but but also a lot of excitement excitement I guess because I was two other girls on my pg year were name of the Israel. Yell and Media Literacy Sleepyhead a little little team with you. That's cool. I like oh we are not alone so we can show and we decided already to go to different fields off of what was going to VR Luigi another one was going to epigenetics cities. Kelly said Oh we are not going to be compared to those. We are going to be friends helping one another and so you're going in different fields and your best friends so a little safety network that you had there. That's that's awesome so you got to London. You actually had some family and friends which is which it helps a lot. I'm sure because so the peachy itself how was how was the the stretch tax it was because by a Japanese supervisor that list Japanese seed slacked workaholics and I'm a Portuguese laidback. It back relaxed easy going on the cell. He didn't want to let go. You want even finally finished. PG Defy stay in the lab near by twelve emend finish somewhere. Can I was like I want to get into the next stage of my life so so was struggling for me because I'm writing a chapter of the book and tiny concentration and end. I need concentration work on my tease. Anatolia was at don't and we have meetings to discuss to revise any drugs really hardeep elite Mulas like making pressure of me to stay to saying the bench and not end so you as always giving excuses ought to finish the the reading and our be faster than him giving the chapters already done everything so it was it was hard but I at friends would help me a lot and my family. My mom used to go a lot to do lynam. Lynam the anti out reading the final stage show racking disease was really hard. I'm Greek on the written part. It's difficult for me and bad it was good because we are I published a lot and so it was a question Russian off the organizing what we have written until to do the different actors but stealing artwork so if I understand there was pressure for you to keep doing experiments but you had you know you had a goal which was I need to finish rush to publish. Whatever is in in the you know in the workings and you had to manage this balance between yes? I need to to keep the relationship with my supervisor and and but I I need to. I need to follow my my game plan. Yes the thing is that you think about supervisor's cheery and you have to follow the Syria and ride up. What is the jury and yet when you are. I'm reading you understand. The caveat of the work ended the jury of your adviser any again during the discussion when in my violet a divided is the same name me in Canada via the defense thesis defense a wick listening in London in England a and so in my lose of caveat I remember saying Oh he's not leasing because divide that it's only the jury is not public so if you want you even can say bad things about your super so you was not for me a I use them as much as was kind of a father to me because it would protect me. Ami Closet a different relationship. He was typically amazing awesome but he had a huge gap in communication skills and we were animating team and that's the originally want it wouldn't let me go it was because of my communication excuse any lawsuits but steal we got friends and we email a write reference letters and everything so but it it was our to to finish to cut the the relationship is a now that I'm writing a chapter about this place called Wings Pathway L. I'm seeing the caveat and and it's not always what they say. It's like a strange relations so natural no engevity engevity critical thinking about what they do and think by yourself and and please them because you they up to along five years. I know you have to be nice to both sides. Of course you need to assert yourself in in your you know your intellectual capacities in your in your even Europeans but also of course respect them as as a mentor I will say because with years years and years of experience the when they have a hunch. They probably base it. You know this is probably based on those years of experience and and so yeah for sure so navigate that balanced between okay. I understand what you're saying but you know I I need also so to own. You know this this project I'm doing. I need to understand all the different pieces. I need to agree with them. Myself and I need to make make the ideas and the concepts my own but what from what I see so he was kind of a mentor to you right you want to eat even uh-huh because I'm at until I finished my. Phd Idea Sharp was Akin Imperial College in London in mentioning Zebra fish so I helped set up the new fish facilities in imperial college because it was their first ooh fish ended. I decided I was I was coming year. It was a very long time ago in I said I cannot. I keep anymore any time my family all Arab union them and I was like I cannot take any more so I decided decided to come back up without anything I tend you without the job saying oh I cannot be defeated by anything I will take over the world. I was twenty eight and we might be D-. Are you I don't have a job now. They're gonNA find a job in so I I applied. I talked to a biotech company but huning Valet also so it's quite hard and to adapt to a to I had a nine to five intense. It's it's not pizza so I struggle into so you hit the brakes. It's really hard and you did a one eighty and came back so that's a that's a pretty big and you know a hard transition. What I'm what I'm I'm taking from. What you're saying is what's been important to you you since you beat the I guess until today is resilience. believing in yourself and and of a kind of a fighting attitude about you know I'm gonNA reach my goals and I'm GonNa do whatever it takes. Not whatever extent extinct I met a lot of people what would for me I was in London amid people from the bank working in business and gave gave me different perspectives of live and work in the ENA in banks address banks worke in in architecture. You're working also add people working from different parts of the world which was amazing so gave me the different kinds of ways of seeing work. It's one time I was fed up of. Pj I'm going to do I am the I so I study books for doing the gene. Mites and I thought oh I might go to NBA then when I come back year after the biotech company I was I decided to go to bench work again on I was going do instituting lead glide at enacted their a postal zebra fish still but that's another research institute yes in in was doing neuroscience in uh-huh differentiation narrow stem cells and they announced there was no communication degree the Balkars relations are self like that in Butko. There was one and the former minister of scientists dictation was not so what was the teacher in the minister but was one of the teachers at the end the ad tree a science communication Russian and other met one person it is finally Joe before. My family was my inspiration. My mother was my inspiration but to but during when I met so she was my teacher she was from some years above me in in who Benkin program in science communication and received any vacation to join group inking again and do go to the communication department and fell a giant it having the nation field to me. I was responsible. visits a setup the visits the everything to do due outreach activities to students and so. I was three over there and it was amazing. Anna is mine. One of finance rations. I talked will open ultralight today and now she did turn. She's director of Science Communication in San in Geneva. Okay very very cool. That's quite a inspiring pat that that it seems that you have followed and from what you're saying I I'm getting two things so you you seem to to give a lot of importance and I and I tend to agree to the people that you meet along the way so it is not not fall into the the sometimes the trap of isolating yourself in your or in your in your research and that that I I think it's a key a key point that has come out also in other interviews and I totally agree with you. The second thing is stay curious. That's also only speak about life and work and have dance a a now. Everybody does Yoga but let's take you about nowadays it. You get really isolated if you work. A Lot. You get very is laid back. It's take curious. Stay connected to others on them. and also ever open minded and the end end think that he he tried to watch range. I of of course one of the things that I really important needs to develop your social interaction. We persons in and to go out and stuff like that. and how important would you say the Grad School and going abroad for university was important for for you to open your mind into. I think everyone should do it. It's when you are plenty that you should go abroad notch when you are he seeing more you are not to you are not your your roots already said somewhere in the family starting up to twenties You should go should have these open your mind and you see either cultures rec- other ways of Lee Lee. Bring your realize yourself at This is not a college. He's not descend world. There are other institutes other. There are ways to do seem yeah and you talked about having activities outside of of your of Your Grad school working i. I believe that's that's very important interest activities what were your your like venting exits you had when you when you were doing your in terms of extracurricular activities so I will I get out I was doing yoga in my lab was a person was teacher of Yoga and my office really was upset when I was like Oh. I need to stop the experiment or putting Nick in the in in Boston for a while because I'm doing the end she was she retrieved Cenci she had named even in here yeah. She was really cool the the the name will she took camper and she stealing the lab where I did my PG East relation I did I I would go often to movies getting out nine but one and seeing I I work hard and play hard like I'm I'm going to do my best I I was like a going to parks. I love museums and London to go to rest as well agent Martin than drove your mind we go. Oh drew a date modern tight return on National Gallery and the East for free so so take advantage of what's close at hand in terms of culture streets. You are a student don't and so about time. L. Tend to go see what is really happening and what you can do. Once I think that is important. Lesson that I've learned from including is to be impartial like ought to take one side or the other in arguments in science in Jerry opinions like see one type C. Like I should see Kamar Supervisor said to myself another physician identification that Allan and also from my mother. She's always very it it. It's a it's a very very grownup thing that you're saying they're in the sense of me to lately in these last few years and I hadn't gotten to that place during my PhD but I founded more and more important and more and more enriching to do exactly exactly what you're saying. which is if you're in the situation where someone is not agreeing with you? Sometimes they're one eighty degrees from what you're you know from what you believe or for what you want put yourself in their shoes and say okay why why why are we having this communication obstacle right now what's going through their head instead that of giving way to the the that emotion that defense of no. I'm right. I know I know what I want. I know I'm sure of what I'm saying. So I'm not listening to the other person I I totally agree with you and looking. We Tien tastes each quite hard because there's a problem of ego. Just just scientists know but who is usually not just scientists in politics. It's everywhere when he went when there's a little the fowler there's ego is well. Ns and the Egos is like a M- yes because I'm right and when you are trying to say oh you should see this situation or you should do you should of discover that should try something new and maybe you are not dead tried to convince them and I ending Chien's. It's not about money. Is it a question about I. I discovered that that's that's that's what I agree. What I do is it's book series and papers like their own small babies and be people to argue with them to make them to see it finds a few because when if you if you critique their ideas which are ideas on paper there they take it they take they could personally as a personal as a personal attack now I I would like. I guess I feel that that you know you still very much insci- you know you still writing. You're still collaborating with people that are on the bench but in the transition aspect of transitioning from the bench to communication what are the skills that you that you brought from from your PhD that you feel that are the most useful in in your in your current activities in the career so until I should the communication skills or wasn't very international lab from Japan Greece so am this way of thinking of being global it was a fantastic who are acting would never imagine myself a fighting the FDA when I brought to or on my small project project of reaching writing English speaking in English often international and global gave yeah. It was really important for me. It's a very important not forget the society and and the people who were doing the studies are inevitable they pay taxes for us to for my research and and that came from each to my cheat so you're in science science them so it's like it's quite difficult in our to make sense of person doesn't ever so what you do to thing. Oh I am doing these. I'm doing that and any twenty yen. You fledged athlete of course of course it's one of the things I I like in science. Outreach is is thinking that even if people do not have the same opportunities or do not make the same choices and end up either not going so far in their studies that eventually everyone should have should be able to to understand to certain level you know scientific scientific knowledge scientific information and why like like simple example you take a drug you know everyone should know a little bit should understand a little bit. Why destruct does what it does when I when I take no bid an over the counter drug or something more more specialized so no I totally agree with you so in a way it's an exercise of staying humble amble and not thinking that you're more than someone else just because we have a paper. That's scary G or of course I sometimes I get interested interested. Though I'm not getting these grant I'm applying arm not fitting. I've watched entry or as I said interesting understated denies knee but seemed like they don't send you and if the incidents marking marking I'm doing my best in what I study so it's I have them the task now to to translate to them what I've found onion a simple language and I think Nali what Stanley the niece of love knobs where you do interface talent now developed in the last fifteen years inside. Jive gummy developed a lot end end. There's a lot of master degrees and stuff in Trenton universities while not with single one that I need and become a retraction will end quite competitive as well but but really fun seen as like you get from science in the bench will reward comes soon after winning. The paper is published. If any the lab inflight the new blue light with outreach fridge activate easy frenzy feel the reward in the moment and I think that's the difference. It's like a when you finish the evanger device headed gun dining always felt amazing and stuff like that so with with giants in the bench. It takes a very long. It's very very hard to feel the reward to in in in terms of a a logic relent emotional you don't feel the war in expanding long time to feel it uh-huh and what I've been getting from from the from these interviews and from this podcast is a a lot of the reward you know when you're in Grad school the the big reward is a paper or papers that you publish rights and then and then having also also your degree but I feel that there's there's this invisible reward that each day that you're you know reading articles writing up summaries writing reviews that you that you get organically which is which is an although transferable skills of the being someone who can be focused you know very longtime very very focused researching a very pointy a subject and then being able to due to the problem solving sometimes very abstract problem solving and and these are things that people may not account in their in their sheet of. Oh what I you know. What was the reward versus? What was the effort but but then when you're you know like you you're now doing doing many different parts of projects and I feel that in all of these projects that you have somehow the skills that you perfected and that you train yourself to apply doing your. PhD unite use them every day and and it's not such a tangible reward but it's there and ends there forever. Even you know more more forever than than the paper that you published in my in my opinion. I don't know if you agree yeah. I agree with you. I think what I agree. Most is like Indiana today ice. I can go to bed in sleep really well because I was like I want a stealing anything I am able to do what I love in what how many people can say they working what what they laugh because so many people were doing stuff for for of course they can have like a only day zine resort or stuff like that meeting seems why they spend. Bear Bailey Life wincing at my mother need that for almost thirty five years doing things that truly really don't like our time. Is You know we're getting to the the end of our time. This is more or less an hour and there's there's just a couple of things that I'd like to touch coach and and you said something before the that that that's one of the points that I feel that I wanted to to talk about so what I would like to hear from you is I how mindfulness integrate senior day today scheduling your day to day life and also what tools are what skills have you learned that have because I feel that when you're in a yeah so you're so deep into it you know you you you probably not taking courses in building a good CV TV communication skills Etcetera Etcetera so going to touch upon the mindfulness aspect and then also you know once once your mind is at ease and you're mindful or tools that you used to be at your best when when having to promote an idea or a project so about mindfulness east-west recently in the last year or something in good end to the French the Dutch dot media and a lot of singing Canadian it in he like seizing the moment and watching stop like I do a page of I do. I try to set up gold. Even if they are fall. I knew I said about gold and when I finished I said now. I'm gonNA breathing reading readout. Go to see what make senses relax few. My body feel my different march. Watch a FI body so it's it's always it's it's really was you don't but Mason Jason in only one most loved ones can do it more any only can richie if correct me to log in this in the beginning it will be any will make a you are doing this. You're just standing. GotTa UH It's foolish are just seeking now than we there is closing failing the environment in case you see Ed GonNa take a better better ah to work their way media relations but he's not immediately. You'd after wake along so I'm doing for almost one year and now I'm seeing the results so you have to be patient. So is it a way to two two a calm down. Sometimes the popcorn of go on in your brain of ideas and anxiety. Sometimes you are the anxious mail we the the reading proof soft the referees or like that than you see everything is a rewrite every scene and you said. I'm the the I cannot do it or eat a lot of and any reading ridout indent mind connector a little bit from me detained trying to all the things more important than it and wasn't question you made me what about pool well it was about when you have to promote or sell an idea like tips and tricks that you've used for yourself in the word for you be patient. Bachinsky is always a good team to asking asking uh-huh what what helped me a lot was like I was like I'm a question I feel I feel I'm make diverted. Take like self conscious yeah yeah they encourage you. Oh there's no there's no such thing as a silly question. Never do never say A. You are feeling very confident. Now everyone talks about coaching often hero universities have departments that actually help you that that help you a ride to see that help you even do a fake interview who during the fake review setting things like that Yeah so you talked about coaching now one of the almost almost the last thing that I that I'd like to hear a little bit more from you. You've talked about a couple of mentors that you've had throughout your path from your your a supervisor to the person at School Bankin. If you were able to still you know the most important lesson that you've learned from from these mentors and that that you carry with you every day of your of your life what would that be one or two key lessons and that you've learned from your mentors I started off my mentor of my PG supervisor what I think one that is wanted for me with new director of communication of SAG. She's a very supermom she you she's so Berman and I admire. I usually call her super doctor. Super boss and Superman gussied amazing ongoing that I'm an unbiased supervisor one caveat upbeat could fell was used to be very focused on work any Japan to bring some mutants and and you went any when he arrived I said Oh did you see your parents in no time so oh you said he went to Japan to get some mutant Zebra fish and he did not see his parents imagine and next time you went to Japan James Five Iguazu stable to speak wide and now he says they'll ask Simon was revealed. He says Oh I don't. I don't feel that I belong anywhere now because I'm not Japanese. I'm not you see what what so. It's A. Oh won a advise. One is like even at analyzing a bad make. F- Ed F- stay connected with your country and don't forget your family your cousins your like you can work but extinct actually family and he's a my amazed because she still a requirement. We're family of Laurent work the law of around world working instill and now one of our in studying studying in UK but she's able to stay connected to the family. It's it's very important very important. Listen don't don't don't sever your ties and don't don't use your roots yeah because no matter wachner medical what happens there'll always be your family so yeah. That's a I should stay from especially format and Mazda in runway said I will never do back. I will never go if I'm traveling abroad it actually my second on but I have persons would go if I go there. I I need to see them so it's it's like my second family so it's like snake. Nick with your woods. Never forget where you are coming from and even if you rich Eisen York career he'll. You should always be excellent. That's a that's very good advice and it so now. I'd like to to ask my my less questions. It's it's more of a small role play exercise. Yes I'M GONNA. Ask You to imagine that you standing in front of an audience which you already have so it's easy for you but not when young finalists or or or a recent graduates just like you when you finish your studies there they have fears. They're struggling with worries. Doubts obstacles you know to to find a place in in the job market to define what what the next step is going to be and to trace the journey towards a productive even a fulfilling life so what's two or three basic strategies or principles. Could our listeners follow starting today to put in place an attainable transition project so I think he's love yourself. It's like it's. It's very hard of some people already loved them selves a lucky. NCAA trace the World War but but but yeah yeah but it's important to take their breasts when under take a step back in what has gone wrong be be very conscious on because when you're young you do every seeing very fast the end you don't end it you you don't see the moment you go through the motions without thinking too much and the red and Mike and Again of course you love yourself alike pampering yourself on by Ola yeah. I think the desire of I I've been really quite dark and epicenter. Newhart work life is really really stressful nowadays in every field so you really stressful but if you are doing it it does it deserve an and love your harding win nowadays the working life science wise and everything it's hard and so rest. I will take all the days so these these projects wine injury in a very demanding so arrest and and go to the I did some surf classes at Mar because like microcredits something yard for Waggin that's beautiful. I would resume it in. Take Me Time Be Compassionate and forgiving towards yourself which is something that I agree with you. In today's society we're more quickly critical and negative about ourselves then compassionate forgiving and it's it's key. It's key to have a healthy and happy life and family so the very very very good. Thank you so much cheaper great conversation. We touched so many points and I think we could we could say another two hours talking so thank you so much and congratulations for wonder science. It's a great project. Hope it goes no further than and has already gone into that. He grows and and hope to to hear about you soon. Thank you WanNa play was really good all right. Thanks for Labor by thanks for listening to another episode of the Papa Peach De podcast head over to Papa Pete's dot com for show notes and for more food for thought about non-academic both Grad careers always be happy to share inspiring stories new Ouadhias in useful resources here on the podcast so make sure you subscribe on Itunes or wherever you get your podcasts to always keep up with the discussion and to hear from our latest guests.

London Grad school scientist supervisor Zebra Fish Israel NBA UK Yoga US PhD Dot Com Japan Portugal London London Philippa Kereta Barboza Philip Nick Indian Portugal Papa Peachy director Portugal
Current Challenges in Graduate Education with Paul Yachnin

Papa Phd Podcast

54:51 min | 8 months ago

Current Challenges in Graduate Education with Paul Yachnin

"The higher education is under pressure. These days it has been for a while now but the covid nineteen pandemic may well be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back and this test is bringing to light some of the fragilities that have been under the radar until now with me this week i have someone who has a deep love for higher education and for students and graduate researchers and who has explored the question of professional outcomes of. Phd's in different domains. Paulie acton paul ekman is tomlinson. Professor of shakespeare studies at mcgill university from twenty thirteen to twenty nineteen. He was director of the early. Modern conversions project before that he directed the making public's project from two thousand five to twenty ten. He's ideas about the social life of art were featured on the cbc radio ideas. Here is the origins of the modern public in two thousand nine. Two thousand ten. He served as president of the shakespeare association of america among his publications. Are the books stage rights in the culture of play going in early modern england editions of reaching the second and the tempest and edited books such as making public in early modern europe and forms of association. His book publix in shakespeare's playhouse is forthcoming for the past. Eight years. he has been working on higher education policy. He leads the trace mcgill project tracking the career pathways of over five thousand graduates from across the university. And telling the stories of over one hundred fifty of them. He publishes non academic essays about shakespeare and modern life including titles. Such as time has disease. What would shakespeare do and tragedy as a way of life so if i say new a young phd researcher. I'm not gonna use the word student So have you thought about the different careers that might be to you when you graduate. It says. If i'm saying i don't think you're good enough for an academic job and i'm afraid that the person will also take it that way. So how'd we change thinking about the phd as well as the programs and there's one good way to do that and that is to get as many stories as many voices of people who graduated and who say yeah. I got a phd in english. I'm executive director of cbc ideas. Okay and that is an actual case. That we've we've. We've covered a great deal with trace That person conveys to people doing. Phd's now that there are other pathways. Not only are they entirely legitimate and respectable. They're to be sought. After welcome to the beach with david mendez the podcast where we explore careers and life after grad school with guests who have walked the road less traveled and have unique stories to tell about how they made their place in the world of constantly evolving rules. Get ready to go off the beaten path and hop on for an exciting new episode of papa phd. They really love to just have a conversation about the current situation may be because i i've been following the social media the academic social media and there's a lot of anxiety insecurity all around this covid situation to do with going back or not going to universities but also Just to in general talk about this question of you know twenty-first-century what's going to happen with with the phd and And what's happening. Maybe on the experience and the numbers that you've seen on with race mcgill. Well i mean the first thing that comes to my mind is something that we see happening in the united states especially at the top universities on the humanity side which is a number of top universities have suspended their recruitment in the mandates. Okay yeah that's and we're talking about that and and what they're saying These universities is they're suspending their programs in literature or history in musicology across the humanities because of the dire academic job market okay. now. I feel very strongly that this is the wrong thing to do. It's the wrong thing to do for a number of reasons. One reason is that the academic job market has been dire- for fifty years is not news. It should not be news to anybody. You know all of the studies that we've done in canada across the board. Show us that. There's about a twenty five percent of the graduating students who get tenure track jobs. That's a rough estimate but it's fairly accurate. It's certainly pretty clear in the work that we've done with trace that it's about twenty five percent so the job. Market is dire. It's always been dire- Won the humanities. Graduate programs at the elite universities in the united states should do is not suspend recruitment but rather started thinking about how they changed their programs so that their programs without dumbing them down in any way without changing their essential nature as curiosity driven research. That's the focus. A nevertheless are are are altered their adjusted especially in spirit but also inform so that they lied and they are seeing to lean days nearly in hard working young scholars to a multiplicity career. Pass not the academic interesting. What you're saying. And especially if we think a lot of the issues that are affecting people today that needs to be addressed today. Phd's coming from the humanities should have an are going to have a lot to say the look to do on those questions because not everything is viruses. Not everything is epidemiology. A lot of it is society societal choices so it is a bit worrisome. What you say. And i wasn't aware of this kind of freeze that you that you're talking about On on that side. It's a bit worrisome. That that somehow was the reflex of some of these universities. Yes quite it's quite disheartening. Instead of because because crises are hard to deal with. There's no question about that but one of the ways to approach a crisis that it. It's hard we're going to suffer through this. But it's also and should be an opportunity that think creatively and to think in new ways because what we've been doing we now we know doesn't work so the global climate emergency should should breen us very clearly to the understanding. It has for many of us but not enough of us. That what we've been doing for the past two hundred years. It's not working. It's making things worse. How do we change what we're doing. And i think we need to do the same thing within the university's at it in and it's very disheartening. To me to see you know the among the best programs across the united states that the leaders on humanity side are saying allegis. Close up our shops. And because the thing that they do by suspending intake they disappoint these extraordinary people who worked so hard to be eligible to get into the top programs so that their breaking hearts. But it's not only that universities especially the elite universities run on the fresh blood on fresh ideas of young scholars of course if we keep 'em out we will start to dry up. Yeah and then you know from what i'm getting. Someone is taking this decision now. Which is kind of in a way easy to take. Just close the tap and and you know and you dealt with some issue that somehow you In europe meetings you decided it was something you needed to deal with but then the clock starts ticking and these generation that doesn't get in won't be there three three six five years from now when we need them but i totally agree and now you specifically at mcgill university. Have been very involved in the trace. Mcgill project maybe you can talk a little bit about what it is and enter my question to you based on that is around. You and at mcgill university in montreal. Do you see. Do you see some good ideas. Some some Good reactions to this crisis that might you know be inspiration for for other other groups or other universities out there okay. That's that's a great big question. Let me take you back. i'm gonna take back about nine years and it actually goes back further than that. Because i've been a professor for a very long time over thirty years. I've supervised many students. I knew at some in some place in my mind. I knew about the dire job situation. I of course knew all about it. When i was a phd student who many many years ago at the university of toronto 'cause it was dire then and it still dire now. But somehow i'd put it out of my mind. I wilfully ignored it. As i supervised all of these wonderful young people. Some of them got tenure. Track jobs some of them didn't and it's about half and half and here's a confession. I always assumed that they would get tenure track jobs and they should get tenure track jobs and i. i should've known. Of course that many wouldn't because of the academic job market and somehow didn't process that at some point often in my own mind if one of my really talented. Phd students graduates now at didn't get tenure track job i would think is. There's something the matter with them. I would never say anything like that. But i confess to not just to show how this culture of the academy has grown up inside me and shaped me from the inside and control my thoughts and my feelings. At a certain point. I began to realize that even good people can think unethical thoughts. Even good people can behave unethically. Because i'm sure. I conveyed to all of my phd supervisor that i was expecting them to get tenure track jobs that they should get tenure track jobs. The culture percolated through me into them. If they if those who didn't get tenure track jobs felt for one moment after having graduated that they were failures. I bear the guilt for that. They were not failures. Nobody'll completes a phd should ever for one second thing that they are failure to get this idea and what happened is i was a director of the institute for the public of hearts ideas at mcgill and executive director lee entered. Who is now. One of the senior in university came into me. And she said that there's a shirk program about Transition to the labor market. And i said get outta here. That's not what we do here. Were you mandates center anyway. She she did the application and she got the grant but because she was faculty. I was the. Pi work together on this and we ended up writing the white paper on the future of the phd in the amenities. And then i really began to get it. I really began to get that. Something was wrong with the programs that something was wrong with the culture and went on from there. So lee and i wrote a piece that was in policy options about how we have to change the and coming out of the white paper. We did a national project called future humanities where we gathered all the universities in canada we ask each university to start a discussion on their campus. About how the amenities might be made. More effective more worthwhile and every university took part they all produced videos or think pieces or You know kinda group documents and they send them to us. We shared them across the country with all the universities. And then we got everyone in montreal together in two thousand thirteen and we let off with a plenary session with about thirty five or forty students from across the country and they told us the administrators the faculty members what was important for them. What their aspirations were coming out of that conference. We started trace and we did trace the by. The project was a national project we track. The upcoming Comes of about four thousand graduates humanities from across the country and we added something that no one else had done and it was all the work of phd student researchers. They did this work. It reached out to the grounds and asked them if they would consent to the interview. The kind of thing you're doing now so well. And i think about four hundred of them said yes so we created an archive not only of statistical information about the comes but also their stories and we went on to do the second trace project again national project a smaller number of universities but in the social sciences and and and the fine arts and then we brought it home to mcgill. Untraced mcgill is a project that is that has tracked the career of comes of more than five thousand. Phd graduates from across every faculty in the university. And we are. We don't think wrapped up the interviewing interviewed. I think three hundred graduates and again. I say wing but it wasn't me. It was extraordinarily young students. Researchers did the work and they've learned so much from it and many of those stories and interviews are getting posted online. What we're doing also as well as telling the stories. And here's the thing about the narrative the stats won't actually make visible the pathway. By which a graduate gets from point a. To point to elliott will they will make visible the career pathway and we must make visible as many pathways as possible so that in program students and also perhaps faculty members begin to get the idea that the phd leads to other places assignments the academy. That's a very very interesting program. I i really loved the the concept. And i you know i can appreciate the the with the the span of the need to reach to get all these people and all all the work that these these graduate students are putting in getting these. You know doing these interviews again and getting these narratives. It's it's super interesting in the end. I you know. I think it's it's very inspiring in that sense of it shows what what's the actual journey that these people these people follow and with all the twists and turns that they that they might have you know whereas the numbers get. Don't don't give you the granularity now. I have two questions based on what she said. I if you pick up the white paper today are there some boxes you can you can take you know or or. Is it still very very you know what's the word. Maybe you can give me the word. But it's very timely. Still still something to read into to base projects today. That's my first question. Okay it's it's it's great. I mean maybe. We've made progress on three of the recommendations. So i one of the things we said is anybody's doing a. Phd is already grown up. They should think of themselves as grownups they should. They should undertake to make their voices. Heard inside the academy and outside the academy. And i think that realization that anybody doing a phd is actually a grownup and not a kid. Not still an apprentice. Whi- which is the model that is dominant within the university. That's beginning to to gain. Traction i think another thing where we're seeing a bit of movement is one of the things we said is that the phd in the humanities. Need not be a a book you know sweater. My friend said to me a phd in the amenities says to a young person. Go in your room. Don't come out until you've written a book. And i think that is so true about what is still the dominant model within the manatee speech. So what we suggested recommended in the white paper is that we imagined a possibility that a thesis could be a kind of portfolio of interrelated Works some britain perhaps some video or have some online. And i think we're seeing some movement some opening to that kind of innovative thinking about one of the recommendations were. I think we're seeing real movement. We said universities have extremely good career advising of programs for their undergraduate population. But we don't. We didn't see when we wrote. The white was that there was much going on on the graduate side and i think that universities have really moved on that so i think. The university of toronto in canada started by hiring this wonderful phd hd graduate. Who had a lot of experience in different fields to hell page students. Think more broadly and variously about career possibilities. So i think we're seeing real movement there and certainly at mcgill. We're doing a lawn on that side. It's interesting i just saw. Conversation had a conversation where someone was telling me that where the place where she did a phd. She did feel exactly this. That whatever resources with their for students were very geared towards undergrads. And not and this may have been five ten years ago and and like you say things are changing. I think You can see a across different universities and it's great to see. Now the one thing you mentioned about being a grownup that also has come up and sometimes some people that i've talked to at and actually interviewed have that are. Pg student still have mentioned that well. I have stopped saying phd student there. When i present myself i say. Pt researcher and it's it changes the mindset of the person. saying it. i see you know in in. And i know they come from a place of. I'm a worker in a workspace. Doing research in the no not because student has these connotations of of being tree near etcetera etcetera. Which in a way you are but it doesn't. It doesn't give this idea of an adult that is now contributing to society in a way and When the used these disturb the they felt that the person they they're talking to also sees them differently in this in this more grown up way. Too that you were mentioning and it's interesting that you mentioned that now i have felt because i've been in different career panels. I've i've talked with with graduate students at different stages of of their their phd. And i have felt that when you start a phd often. This kind of this Cognitive dissonance when someone talks to you about different career options and and plan in terms of korea's because he just started you're aiming for you know being a pi getting a nobel and someone's telling you maybe start already looking at other possibilities at the of the phd. Can you talk a little bit about that in about when it's healthy or ideal to start thinking about it what's your take on that on that aspect is a very very great even urgent question because i hear you from the inside and i and i feel still after all these years doing work still very. I still feel very complicated. So if i say new. A young phd research. I'm not gonna use the word student. So have you thought about the different careers that might be open to you when you graduate. It says if i'm saying. I don't think you're good enough for an academic job and i'm afraid that the person will also take it that way. So how do we change thinking about the phd as well as programs and there's one very good way to do that and that is to get as many stories as many voices of people who graduated and who say yeah. I got a phd in english. I'm executive director of cbc ideas. The that's that's and that is an actual case that we've we've we've covered a great deal with trace that person conveys to people doing. Phd's now that there are other pathways. Not only are they entirely legitimate and respectable there to be sought. After as what. Greg kelly did got me from oxford. He was offered a post doc at stanford he turned it down He kinda bided his time. He put the made some money. And then someone said you know you can pitch to the. Cbc done his thesis on on oscar wilde He pitched the cbc was a radio. Show on the trial of oscar wilde Though he didn't change what he was interested in he changed how he was going to deliver. It was up and it was broadcast nationally and it started his career. We need more and more people like that telling their stories and then people like me and people who are doing. phd's won't automatically think that a multiplicity of career pathways means failure. That's a very very inspiring. So yeah i hadn't. I wasn't aware of it and again i think it's representative of the diversity of things you can do with now the thing that i'm wondering and i'm not aware right now Of how universities are promoting their programs. And whether this message is start no starting to seep into the promotion near the whatever way universities try to attract students into their programs. Is it something that that is that is that some of you within university are thinking about and trying to implement or is it the. Is there still a lot of work to be done on that side of the what. What's the discourse when you when you as a university are trying to attract students into a pc program. Well a couple of things one is that i answer has to be no. There hasn't been as far as i can see a great deal of movement. In terms of how the programs are advertising themselves their strengths in recruit he hd Researchers into their programs and there a couple of reasons one is that the culture is still very much in place. It's a culture of the academy. And i have nothing ended. I have nothing against the culture of the academy except that we need to open it up little bit. We need to open up some of the doors in some of the windows. I love research in humanities. I love curiosity research. This is where. I live my life most of the time and i don't want to disable or or or or suggest that there's something wrong with that but i think that what we still see. Is that the universities. Especially i think on the manatee side which is the aside. I know best are promoting themselves as centers of academic excellence with a record of training. People for the academy. The other thing to say is that. I think it's different from one faculty to the next and that is something that i learned working on trace miguel because if you haven't epidemiology phd you might continue in the academy but there are many other things that you can do and the people are doing with their px's epidemiology the same thing goes for For engineering so they'll only interviewed people as potential researchers with the project from engineering. You know we'd ask each person the question. Just tell us where you see your career. Pathway you complete your day. And for the humanities candidates he looks mostly toward the academy but it was very different to our surprise. Because mike. Kelly who helping me do. The interview is also a phd in the amenities. People epidemiology people in engineering and in other fields were saying beyond the academy's pretty interesting but there's lots going on outside the university. That's really valuable so i think that one of the things that we need to do is talk to each other across the university. That's partly with trace project is doing so that we learn from each other and there's so much to learn even inside the university from how other how other faculties are doing their work How they present themselves how they think of themselves and even what counts as a phd thesis in other in other departments and other faculties had something that we can learn from. And what you say is important because You know some of these conversations and maybe even since i've had may because i'm like i'm from the life sciences and you know that's my frame of mind when i'm having these conversations and i it's true that you cannot lump everyone together before going on with my conversation with paul. I just wanted to thank you for being a listener of the show. My hope is that after each episode you have at least one main take home message. One actionable item. You can implement in your career exploration this year. I want to bring you more with papa peachy. I've recently started to have listener. Check ins on instagram. Where i let you share your academic journey so far and answer some of your questions live also for you who are new listener. I've just curated themed collections of episodes. I call starbucks to allow you to catch up on all the conversations and easily find the ones that interest you you can find them by visiting. Papa need dot com for slash. Start and i have big plans for the two thousand twenty one like improving the accessibility of each interview by having someone prepare and applaud clean transcripts or being able to better than guests for their generosity and time coming on the show with the gift for example bringing up a phd to you every week in the current format is a lot of hard work so to help. Keep the project float. I've set up a new way for you to support the the patriot on to be clear. You don't have to be a patron to listen to the beach. it's free and it will always be and you have my profound appreciation for tuning in each week and for talking about the show with your friends but for you who want to help you maintain the quality of the show and potentially bring to life some of the cool ideas i have for it. You don't have a simple way to do so. Just go to papa. Pg dot com for slash patriots on and choose one of the tears or create your own again. Thank you for being a listener. Now let's get back to the interview Now one thing that that i was that i wanted to ask in the beginning was i had to do. With the results. Of these years of trace mcgill and the echoes that those results may already have had in meetings. You have had in decisions that have been made. Can you talk a little bit about about that in terms of What you know what those number what. Those numbers may have already translated into in new ideas in new Approaches to to these problems. I think a number of things one is that with trace mcgill as with trace more generally and the work you're doing is that one of the goals is to create a mentoring community there. They're all of these people more than five thousand. Just the cohorts from two thousand eighteen thousand eighteen graduating from gil More than five thousand. Phd grads who have a lot of experiential realized knowledge. About what happens to you after you complete your age day. And so what we're trying to do is create a network so that people who are in program even people are reconsidering doing a phd can reach out to Grads and asked to talk to them out so that what we did on the website is you know is at the bottom of a number of the narratives. There's a button a button says connect and we're trying to get the word out to the in program researchers the people who are doing their now that they should feel most welcome to hit that button and that button will take them to the project manager. Who will reach out to the grad. Ask the grad. If he or she or they will be willing to talk. And most of the grads who've agreed to have the connect button knows exactly what they're doing and have a real stake in helping others. What are the things is most important for us to do. Is to create that mentoring community. Because it's a way of getting those other stories prominently into the conversation and that's one way to to change. The the culture is another piece here. Let me just bring to the table and equity diversity inclusion at it's increasingly important and one of the things we said to the deans from the very beginning when we started to think about trace mcgill was that we want to tell the stories of the people who come to mcgill people of color of come to mcgill. Done pierre jason. What they've done with those days because we want to. We want to put that on the website. You want to put on the university website and on the faculty websites so that if there were people of color who are thinking about what they want to do with their lives and they wander over to stay the engineering faculty at mcgill and they go. That person looks langley and so one of the things that is so important for us to do is to tell the stories of all kinds of people and and and being really sensitive and thoughtful about it and one of the great things about doing the interview. it's not just stacks. it's the it's the person's own words that are there on the website. So i think they. I'd piece of what we're doing is is a really important thing it's about it's about changing university. It's about it's about not only changing the way the university thinks about how it it it. It is developing its premier program the phd but also thinking about social justice as a piece of that premiere of educational program it sue. I can confirm that the button works you. Click on it and people get back to you and are in a in have very Interesting converse compensation so if any of the listeners out there just go and we'll share the link later on to the trace mcgill website. All these narratives go go there if a profile interests you and the the button is there in the person agreed to to to be contacted. Click on it. It's it's you know it'll be worth your time and you'll have a new connection and who knows new bridge to a future future job and i can. I can really attest to this and again you. You mentioned people of color of men women. And because i think i agree one thing which is It's really important to bring everyone to campus. And if you talked about something you've had one said one word a couple of times in the conversation that i find is really important and that really kind of connects us all who end up going to do. Pg's it's curiosity. You mentioned it a couple of times. And i think it's really really important. And you. if after your undergrad your curiosity strong enough that you wanna go spend you know three four five depending on where but six years. He'll looking into something very very pointy very discover something new that no one has before even though maybe you don't want to be a professor but you have that strong curiosity to know more into discover the independently of your your agenda independently of the color of your skin. Go you know come to university and take advantage of this great institution. That like you mentioned is geared towards academic. Excellence but you can do so much more afterwards. I a hundred percent with you on that. I think that that is the most ignored and most important foundational feature of what we're talking about. All of the research. That i've done that others have done that has been done in. The united states tends to ignore the individual. The individuals curiosity their passion for researching and the closing of the programs in the united states are are shutting people out of their desire to learn more about something that is their passionately interested in stregic. Yeah he's tragic. And and it's because i think that we have ignored so much of the research that we've done this piece with the narrative gets added but none of the statistics added that people are willing to invest five six seven years of their lives in a phd. Dave better know that they love it. They better know that it is crucially important for how they live their lives and how they flourish as human beings and i think that's so important. Let's bring the personal back into the picture. Bring the person back into the picture and bring that the Curiosity and their love of research in into the picture universities do well. We don't make part of our our pitch to potential new students because we're kind of embarrassed to talk about how much we care about what we do. We want to be more down to earth. Wanna talk about phd outcomes we wanna talk about percentage of our grads who have tenure track jobs in research universities. All of that is important. There's no question that that's important. But what is the foundation of all of this. You know let's go back. Let's go back to socrates about what's going on for him about understanding the world that is that is that is definitely through and what i have seen from the interviews that i have done in the people have been talking with that after a phd people who do not say nichodemus the up finding jobs where they can steal fee feed their curiosity because they they went through this ordeal they learn these skills. This way of thinking and then organizations companies want people who can keep discovering new things new ways of thinking about old problems etc. And i just found it very you said i think two or three times in the beginning of the conversation is really really rung. A bell this word curiosity in a and i do think that you know whenever you see stories of people who are first generation appease students often you see that what drives them is a very deep-seated curiosity about about a specific subject or or just curiosity about like you said how does the world. How does the universe work. Could it could be just that so let me bring another piece to what you're saying it's curiosity one of the features of the page d program. Which makes it different from every other program in the university educational programming university. Is that page. The graduates can't graduate unless they Contribute significant new knowledge to the world. that's a requirement of the degree across the university. System of curiosity is central but the curiosity has to be productive yes. Phd researcher has to cultivate the knowledge and the skills that will allow them to come up with new answers to new questions. It's not just a matter of kind of spending your time going about the world looking at different things. You actually have to pull it together into new knowledge. And i think that to a large degree we have lost sight of the fact that is at the center of the phd program. Which is that. It is intellectual entrepreneurship. it's about it's about developing new ideas new ways of understanding and the world needs those now more than ever the and to reduce the number of. Phd's is as you said a tragedy not only for the people who want to hd's not only for the universities that will suffer because of the lack of new new intellectual blood but also for the world that is going to miss these people who get trained to develop their curiosity into new ideas. A new answers to questions that we have it through and Well now we're almost reaching the end part of the interview. And i think now what really taking. What what you said and Thinking of listeners. Out there who might be considering doing a phd. Even if like i was mentioning no one in the family has before and even if their interest and irrespectively of whether they're interested in engineering literature is in social sciences. A lot of people out there. Because of the situation with the cove it crisis the covid pandemic hiring freezes left and right like you say freezing in enrolling into phd programs. Which i am still boggled that what you shared But forgetting that that last aspect it for people out there. Maybe thinking of undergraduates were who you know her grades. Graduating in considering is a phd. Something i should be worth investing in at this time and how can i today. With a phd. Contribute to solving some of these very dire issues that we're going through today. Do you have a couple of words for them of inspiration and of orientational little bit. Yes absolutely I think that it's very important to start conversations with faculty at departments that you're interested if you're thinking of doing and those conversations include just what you said. How will this help me fill my aspirations. It helped me fill this desire. I have to know more and to be productively curious in this area of study and then another thing that i've learned from many people that i interview and i've learned head slowly over my own. Life is that it's important also to cultivate work outside the academy as well as inside the academy and we're outside the academy that can dovetail with work inside the academy. University of british columbia has a really great program called the public scholars initiative where they pay. Phd researchers to take their skills and their questions to different places outside the academy for a certain amount of time and developed the networks and these skills that they need to take their knowledge and there's and their intellectual skills in their intellectual entrepreneurship to other places. So i think it's very important to look around at at the different universities. When you decide what university what department Might be the best one for you. Go and talk to them up to the graduate program director. Talk to the fact he members who might be your supervisors about what an open up those conversations. Because i think that there's a real is a real sense of ferment. Within the university system and and faculty members even family members and old as me are thinking about how we can do a better job how we can open our ears to what are. Phd students are talking about what they're thinking about. So i think it's so important. Have those conversations is so important to open up. Other networks that are outside the academic network and to end to end to pursue A kind of intellectual mobility that the present culture of the university tends to frown on the. That's good advice. And now thinking of students who are in their phd and maybe towards the end of the peachy in a bit stressed about the situation of am. I going to be able to finish. Because maybe my research is now totally frozen. I can't go to the lab or to you know to my department Do you have some some words for them as to how to deal with maybe the society what maybe they can do in the situation where they might be stuck at home. What's your experience with your students lately. Do have an do you have a feeling from interacting with them of what they're dealing with at this point in you know to do with this whole situation of of insecurity and uncertainty in a small we. Of course a lot depends on what kind of research the researchers are doing it. They're doing work on the life sciences. We better hope. The universities are able to make the labs available to them of course. And we're in really hard to do that. If they're on the humanities and they need to do research archives in england or in paris on they're going to have to do something else until they can go to those archives. We do have an extraordinarily fast expanding online resources on the vanity side. So that's helping people a great deal. Ills gotta deal with the happy trust. That makes books. I didn't know i would ever be able to get my hands on appear on my computer screen. So there's a lot there's a lot that is there that we can work with 'em how to deal with the conversations. Go on the trace website. Hit the connect button talked to people who've been there before you that's so important Connect with Were creating this large mentoring community and and that kind of conversation with people who been there been through the kinds of things. You're going through now. That's going to be really helpful and also talk to the faculty. Talk to your supervisor. I know this is hard many times. Phd researchers don't want to say that their supervisor ongoing to really hard time. I don't know what's going on dona. i'm going to be able to finish. I think it's time that we stop doing that. I think it's time that we recognize that. We're all grownups. And then if we have a real problem we should talk to people and just know that most of the faculty actually care about their phd supervising. They really do And and although so many of us haven't had those real life conversations. I think many of us like me are ready to have those real-life conversations so the undergraduates don't have any problem witness. They're very willing to open up to their profits but the but the graduate students especially the phd students have some problems so i say conversation is absolutely crucial And also use all the resources that are available to you in terms of what's going to happen after get you. Which of course is also source of considerable anxiety. Is that the more time you spend reading the stories of people the more that will tend to quell your anxiety Checkout greg kelly story the guy who's the executive producer of cbc ideas on checkout their daniel barclays story which we recently posted on the trace website. She's a she's at. Uvc helping people develop their career options. Important work check my dear friendly yetter. Who is helping to run. Mcgill university with pg in history from brown There lots and lots of people who are who've been through this and who have a remunerative deeply fulfilling careers. It's going to be okay. It's going to be okay. Well you're you're hitting some marks for me you again. You were mentioning conversations and it's so that we probably cannot talk face to face with a lot of people today but with the technology that's now you know in everyone's phone. It's through that it be ashamed to miss the opportunity of now being in your office in your living room talking with these people who are now. Pretty vino certainly have time to spend ten fifteen twenty minutes sharing their experience with you and again for the listener out there out of experience i can tell you. People are glad to share these these experiences into help people like you who are now going through what they went through. You know ten years ago the glad to do it. So don't miss this opportunity. And and it's i hadn't thought of it as way to quell the anxiety but of course of course it is thank you. Thank you back to the old therapeutic. Talk their it's to soukous gaza these conversations. Yeah you can you can. You can even go depending on. How how it clicks the person. You can't even go into other deeper aspects of what you're living through for paul i Before i ask you to to share the where to find ways mcgillis cetera. I just wanted to really thank you. And i really liked the fact that In a way this interview stemmed from the first you said at the beginning from the transformation that you felt happened inside you that kind of reflects what what's happening in academia. What has been happening in the last ten ten twenty twenty years and it. It's i'm really just really thankful of all we talked about you know going from no networking today as a way to take advantage. Let's say this strange weird situation that we're living through to inclusion and diversity. I think that was a very important point and You know me myself. I'm a. I'm a first generation. I was facilitation. Apd coming from abroad. Houston montreal so. I had done with that a lot and And also it was really great to talk with you because of the kind of thirty thousand feet view. You have on this issue because of having because of teaching because of having been in these canadian why in now miguel wide projects that really kind of go to the heart of this question and and and seeing that you so invested in helping things changed for the better in a way so that people who want who have this curiosity who want to work towards this skull can you know trust the system and dive into it and then come out winning and and having a productive life after on. I think i'm just. I'm just really really happy this conversation. I mean i just mentioned one thing to you at the work that you're doing the work that we're doing. There's work going on across canada and in the united states and in europe addressing how we can do a better job with Grudge education but when we completed the white paper is senate every dean every grad dean across canada and the uptake was simply stunning. I sent to the grad dean at university of the vile. I said we just had his translated into fringe. I'm really pleased to send it to and she wrote back to me like within twenty minutes on a saturday and said a we already read the english version. And we're sharing it a margaret's house want to be part of the we're going forward so i think it's so important to recognize that the universities are across. Canada are thinking about how we can do a better job. It's a slow slow process to change an institution like the university. But there's a real will to change and it's great to hear great to see paul so now where can people find a trace mcgill trace. Mcgill all one word dot com perfect to ac. Trace mcgill mcgill dot com excellent. That's it and if you want to reach out to you. Paul dot jackman. Ach in i n at mcgill dot ca. Perfect paul This was a great conversation. I already said it. But i really really enjoyed it. I think listening skin can take a lot from what we would we talked and have a lot of pointers to to go look I really also feel that. They can feeling encouraged also lower their anxiety a little bit from listening to our conversation. So thank you for having accepted to come on pitchy. Thank you a real privilege and a pleasure to talk to you. And that's it for this episode of public beach. Thanks for tuning in happy sharing and see you next week. Thanks for listening to another episode of the papa. Peach podcast head over to papa. Peach dot com for show notes in for more food for thought about non-academic boss grad careers. I'll always be happy to share inspiring stories. New ideas and useful resources on the podcast. So make sure you subscribe on itunes or wherever you get your podcasts to always keep up with the discussion and to hear from our latest guests.

mcgill mcgill cbc Paulie acton paul ekman shakespeare association of ame united states david mendez shakespeare institute for the public of he university of toronto Untraced mcgill Greg kelly canada montreal europe lee tomlinson papa peachy breen
Navigating the Corporate Space With Caolan Kovach-Orr

Papa Phd Podcast

56:37 min | 6 months ago

Navigating the Corporate Space With Caolan Kovach-Orr

"Hi there this week on. I'm talking with galen kovic or about his journey from the wet lab to career data science during our conversation. We talked about kaelin's academic journey about what skills you should focus on as a candidate today if you're interested in data science about the specifics of the interviewing process for data scientist positions and ceylan chair specific advice based on his experience as a phd in the corporate space. So be ready to dig notes moving up the corporate ladder is not about. Who's the best just not. Who can help the most people right. So you don't get that manager directorship position because you're the smartest person in the room you get it because you'll be able to help the people who report into you and the people that you report to the most position and so there's almost no room for ego. Welcome to pop. Up each d with david mendez the podcast where we explore careers and life after grad school with guests who have walked the road less traveled and have unique stories to tell about how they made their place in a world of constantly evolving rules. Get ready to go off the beaten path and hop on for an exciting new episode of papa. Phd this week on the show. I have with me kaelin. Covert or ceylan earn his speech in theoretical biology from mcgill university. In two thousand fifteen. His thesis focused on predator prey interactions. He started in industry as the data scientist and currently heads. The data science and engineering team for various ganda leaks kaelin and his team continued to work on solving novel problems such as getting regulatory approval for the. Us's first machine learning based insurance pricing product. This is from predator. Prey interactions to data science. I really want to hear the story. Welcome to puppies ceylan. Thank you great to be here. So kaylin i. I'd like to say that. I found you through this great program. At mcgill skull trace mcgill in which is a program which has it has existed for a few years now and the objective of the program is to get back in touch with. Phd's this'll with mcgill graduates and interview them. Also kind of like here like we doing today to kind of get a narrative of what their journey was and And to help. I'd say mcgill understand how where people are going after the peach the and And how they navigated those years after so. I'm really really grateful that through contact with this program. I was able to find you and to have you here today to tell us me and listeners about your your story you know and i again i really find that you know when you see what it is in. Up and what you're doing now might think there's no connection there but i think we're going to answer that question during our conversation at. I definitely It's it's funny. When i think about what my life was like during my hd and what life is like as a data scientists in an individual contributor. I am the day-to-day was nearly identical. So all day is write code and analyze data. I'm looking things are python stack overflow and googling problems and reading. I'm the big picture change so the questions. I was answering a though. The product life cycle of project changes the type of accountability changes. But you know day to day. It's extremely similar. I think it's something that is probably. I'm maybe intimidating for a lot of Grad students thinking about the workforce You know it's not like you come into some like crazy. High pressure scenario that's more than a phd. Must maybe you're working at like. I dunno google premier r. and d. lab or maybe eagle apps. Or something you know. It's there's a. there's a smooth transition there for a lot of people especially coming from stampede. If you're going into related field and industry so actually. This is a good the bridge to ask you this question which is just share with with the listeners. What was your your path. You know how how you got. Maybe two to decide to go and pursue a phd. What subject that was on. And then how would the next steps up to the point. Where you you found kind of okay. I'm going to go into data science and then then up to today. What was that journey like on. Yeah so i think my first year of undergrad. I was really lost. I didn't know what i want to do. I knew a lot of things that i didn't want to do but didn't really have any direction and i found ecology as a major at biograd university And the idea of spending my life working on nature outside in nature It was incredibly appealing to me as a nineteen year old and so i went down that pathway and there were a couple of great professors at rutgers encouraged me to look at hd programs and to get into the research side after talking with me. So there's a barbara gough tim. Casey in peter more and that really helped kind of forge my path so noticing that you know pretty good at math an analytics. An opportunity there. I'm and so in. Undergrad i my my major in ecology evolution and then a a minor or nineteen credits in geographic information service systems And something else in there but as a long time ago now. And then i went to mcgill with the intention of doing fifty percent of my phd A wet lab microbial evolutionary experiments. I we're going to be paired with a theoretical models exploration of the systems. So you know on instead of just having like a model of predator prey interactions. We had these model organisms road. Defers zoo plankton. Were actually test models. I and after a year or two of trying in the wet lab to get any experiments to work and just seeing them all fail and be contaminated. I i i turn my attention. More towards the theoretical side and and that worked really well. Apparently i'm a lot better with computers than i am with living organisms so To talk to my committee tucked my adviser about maybe moving away from the experiments and and that was a challenge There is a lot of discussion about not doing these experiments and how the committee wanted them. If it'd make everything a lot more powerful a lot more meaningful. And i won't do agree. I i think. I probably never would've gotten experiments completed at least not to the scale. I'd been envisioning i. So that took me forward. The next couple of years working on different aspects of predator prey interactions mostly around within species variation. How can stabilize whole ecological communities better facing harsh environmental conditions of climate change pollution. And i think partially there are a lot of different aspects of what was going on when i was thinking about leaving academia so we had the political climate there is right around that time that they cut all the funding for it ecological research in canada. Us isn't much better. If not much worse. I'm and seeing a lot of the post. Docs at mcgill struggling to find professorships that they wanted and the amount of anxiety you could see on people who were two four. Six years out of a phd was really quite shocking to me i had been expecting to be a great springboard into a professorship in you know get that freedom and then you kind of get to see sausage made and it's a little less appealing. I'm until probably around four to five years into my phd. I was thinking about industry. And i still very distinctly remember this day i i had. I'd spent a couple months at the university of potsdam in germany germany collaborating with some professors there in my adviser. Graffman took a sabbatical at potsdam. I i went to go learn from heaven and connect with some of his connections. And i remember this day where we were talking. was a nice day in a spring is really warm outside and we're having a beer and i asked him like if you had to do it all over again. You know given today's climate. Do you think he would and his answer was. He wasn't sure it's a. It's a tall tall of utter when you're talking about somebody who is currently the chair. I'm and i think that was probably the moment where i decided that. I didn't wanna stick it out and try to stay in academia. I'm a appreciate his candidness right. And you know it's tough road and i'm sure when someone like that says something like that it gives you pause and you're like okay so maybe i should think things over and and not think that there's only one way to do things and so this this moment. That was kind of a turning moment where you started. Maybe looking at things differently. Was there in you talked about. You know connecting with with his network. Was there part of this network. that was Was related somehow to industry Or did you have to go and and try to meet new people. How how did you go about kind of putting your foot a little bit through the door into this new domain into this new space on yes. That's a great question so i- gregor's network wasn't really tied to industry in any way there wasn't some government research people in there but Definitely nothing like what i do now. I truthfully didn't start thinking about or didn't start making any moves to try to make connections to industry until very late Probably after i had submitted my initial draft might assists so seven or eight months before vinyl. You know getting my diploma. I'm the there were things i did. Try there's industry events that are essentially recruiting spaces. I found this really intimidating. I a lot of the people there. Are you know especially for data science. They're very very bright and they've been getting and machine learning so not only are they. You know maybe at the same or at higher level than you are in terms of Education or whatever they they're really specifically focused on the fields until it can be intimidating. I'm by that's necessarily the worst thing right so there you know. A lot of these industry events aren't necessarily created to that only the top two or three percent of candidates. Get jobs and hired. I'm they're her every company needs. They decided to start now. And if you're only comparing yourself with people who get offers from google you probably gonna feel Not just imposter syndrome. But all sorts of a terrible feelings. It's funny because i was going to mention imposter syndrome but definitely actually i can even thinking thinking about it in a different way. I would say some of these companies and he's talking about google and other companies. Were doing crazy stuff. I imagine they. Actually there are some probably interested in that person who brings a different profile into the pool of candidates in who might maybe bring new ideas and new point of view versus having learned that the specific curriculum that everyone knows fits so fa listeners out there don't don't imposter syndrome is gonna hit if if you have a profile. That's that fits to a certain extent. Go for it you know. Make your case and and you know. Don't compare yourself directly. Just seat nick comparing. Cv's with someone else because it might prevent you from getting a really really cool opportunity Eventually yeah and i would just tack oughta points there too. You know we. We tend to think about just those incredible companies like facebook and google apple. I'm and there's so much good work to be done. And so many interesting proud products and problems at all sorts of other companies. Where you still doing research and you're still. You know making an impact in the company. I without being you know one in a million candidate. I kind of situation so you know the way i would. I'd probably contextualize. It is when we think about conservation efforts in biology at and wales and these giant mega-fauna and those are really important. You know But there are also a lot of species out there. That could use some attention. That are not as traditionally appealing. You know. you're you're insects and your microbes and micro mammals and it's was. Yeah for sure. I love that example. It's it's a really really good one And yeah. I've i've had someone on the show working for a bank and who comes from the life. Sciences is now the scientists someone also in the retail domain so for sure like companies out there need these skills and and well now i think the term they scientist bring rings say is is something that we now used to hearing but go by go back. Five years ten years he was fairly new right but but still you know at all in all different spaces all different domains if the you have that set of skills in to talk about that later. There's you know the opportunity now to go and and and and really help an organization company with with those skills today because you know everyone is getting online and now everyone is working from home and and you know every there's a lot of places or ecosystems where there's data being collected that needs to be worked treated analyze at different levels of society and of of the of of industry so for sure. But as i was saying what is this set of skills that that is because now you've been working that mean for a while for people out there who might be looking at at okay in two years or in a year. I i'm going to finish. And i want to go. I might be interested in going into data science. What is what should they. How should they prepare. You know what what type of resources should they tried to start getting getting acquainted with cetera et cetera. I that's a great question And the reason i was filing 'cause we i just finished out hiring a few more people so when i took over the engineering team two years ago we had Two people on the team including me. I an hour grown into fourteen across three different offices in two different countries. I'm so yeah. A lot of hiring has been the major things i'm looking for from. Phd's are your capabilities to solve problems. Most data science problems now are actually not that hard to code. I have been a lot of people who've done a lot of work on open source packages and you know ten years ago somebody who could create a neural net model probably had to write the code for the neural net. Now there's hundreds of thousands of packages out there. Everything at a pre configured i'm so the actual running of a model isn't that difficult. It's maybe knowing which model to use Knowing how to design your experiments how to design your tests how to design your data that can really make the big difference between a something that works really well and something. That's okay i and that's where you want to be as a phd. Somebody who can do something really well. Because honestly i teach most undergrads from cops. I- background how to run a neural net afternoon. Maybe a week five. So you don't wanna be competing with them. Who can they can. Just do it. Okay at that point. You want to be the person who can bring that that next level of value i think so problem solving capabilities Autonomy one of the things we look for whenever we hire. Hd's is this person going to add value. Even if they're coming right out of school they're going gonna be some training involved but like wh- it might be the difference between somebody who can come in and figure things out versus somebody. Who's gonna be reliant on their manager to solve all their problems and design all their work for them and that kind of thing and that's why we want to hire is that they can do that and add their own value on in terms of of skills. You know there's academia. There's a strong push for programming languages. Matlab our in industry you know does vary by industry. But you know. I i find python to be the most appealing than candidates i. It's the broadest language it can interface with a lot of different things and it it works. Well it scale a big big infrastructure big data. i'm definitely You know moving away from things like sass and matlab They're not if you know them. I wouldn't eat them off the resume. But i wouldn't lead with them either. I'm and then One thing that i think overlooked. But when i was a candidate but now always check for our gate labs and repositories any type of public. Odd record of writing code can be really convincing. Especially you know if your trying to say that you got two or three years of python experience if you can just show that you may updates to commits along the way That can go a long way to proving that so. You don't have to convince anybody. I bet you have your skills kind of a portfolio but on the on the on that side of of programming right. Yeah exactly and one thing. I do see happen. Is ed rate when candidate. When graduate students are about to graduate a rush and they put together a lab and you can track it right you can see when they made their updates and you'll see some relief in april of that year. There's like thirty commit certain twenty-five may and then they're applying for jobs and junior and it's you know it's not as convincing as somebody who can go back and show something in two thousand eighteen or something something that's that's consistently been been his there'd been consistently working on and improving okay. That's that's really good advice now. I'm thinking of you when you were you. Were just mentioning. You know when when i was when i was interviewing for these jobs. I i didn't think of this. I didn't think of that One thing that really interests me and that for me would have been or or you know at the end of the source of stress is the whole interviewing process. And i'd really like to know because now you've mentioned your beauty care of hiring and of looking at people that i know you interview In person but looking at the experience you had when you interviewed for for your first job in in this space can you also identify some things you would have done differently. And and maybe give some some tips and tricks to the to the younger you. Yeah definitely i'm so. I think there are a few things to keep in mind. I'm so for instance. Anytime i open up a requisition linked in or monster or anything you know. Put it out there. We'll get up to two thousand applicants so we you know we go in order of when they applied and then if somebody internally recommend or if we know them somehow i'm and it can be doesn't hardening because you're you might apply to ten or fifteen jobs a day but i you don't even get a call back or anybody reviewing resume and it's just not possible because if they're two thousand candidates and even ten percent of them are qualified that's two hundred resumes before issues fatigue. Yeah and so. I think i would probably think about expanding network trying to to get to recommend that my resume at least considered As well as trying to get maybe applying for jobs had been recently posted and expecting more hits on that than once. I made up an open from other jail on and in terms of the actual interviews. I think at least for me in a imagine. It's the same for a lot of other people but you know what you're doing work right union. You're finishing your your thesis or you're working at a company you probably in this mode of spending a lot of time alone behind a computer screen. I and some of those social skills tend to atrophy right. And i think it was good interviewers people giving the interviews. I try to look past that. I'm but it probably wouldn't hurt to brush up on some social skills before going into the interviews. And i think that becomes even more true as you. Go up in the The career ladder if you're looking for a management position. I'm yeah you definitely have to be on your your game socially I probably shouldn't go right from like writing code into an interview. Keelan is making a great point about the importance of preparing the field before going into interviews but before drilling down on how to prepare. I want to thank you for being a listener of the show. My goal with these conversations is to provide you with at least one actionable item. One take home message. You can apply to your career exploration and hopefully you'll find many gold nuggets during this episode. I also want to bring you value by making improvements to the show for example for you who are new to the show. i have curated collections of episodes. I call starter packs. You can find them. At pop each d forward slash start and catch up on the conversations and easily find the ones that interest you and i have big plans for the podcasting. Twenty twenty one like improving the accessibility of each episode by having someone prepare and applaud gleaned transcripts or like being able to better thank guests for their generosity with their time coming on the show bringing up a phd to each week in. Its current format is a lot of hard work from finding in booking guests too late nights editing and preparing show notes so to help keep the project float. I've created patriot. Page for papa. Pg you can find it. At papa phd forward slash patriotic to be clear listening to papa. Pg is free and always will be but for you who want to help me. Maintain the quality of the show and potentially bring to life some of the cool projects i have for it. You now have a simple way to do so either way. I'm grateful for having you as listener. And now let's get back to my conversation with caitlyn kovic or which said just made me think about the whole a concept of informational interviews. Because i when you have spent all this time behind the screen and we were recording during the code pandemic so people are even more secluded than than usual. And i guess there's interviews happening on zoom the be current practice today but One thing that i've that i've heard and i'd like to i'd like your take on that is to in an effort of networking but also of kind of practicing you know talking about the subject that interests you Is the idea of getting to talk with people who work in the domain that you're looking into and then have what's what we call an informational interview with them. Is this something that you've seen you've done. This is something you'd recommend. I that i would highly recommend that i had completely forgotten about this aspect of interview. Prep but i had Leaned on family connections Friends from college who had gone into software engineering related fields up friar post finishing my phd in prior to working and just kind of practice talking through and figuring out what people care about and what people are bored by. I you know. I can always be a challenge. Data science the last point. And maybe this is something that i learned a little bit later. But i think it's really. I is to really let go of ego in this process because you go through and you probably had a very successful undergrad and masters and you finish your phd. You might be thinking. Like oh i could be a manager could be director or i could be a senior data scientists. I'm i think it's really important to let go of that type of ego because it does raise some flags for people who are hosting the interview and the most important part is is getting in the door and then proving your value. Once you're out of company you know i i. I came in as a an individual contributor. I spent a couple years there. You know it was felt like you're always eyeing the next promotion and whatnot but it does happen it just you know it takes time like anything else on. And so one thing we'd see with a lot of Phd's is you know. Maybe they have a phd in biology. Like myself or in psychology. And they wanna come in and or chemical engineering they wanna come in and and have a job. Bad is like their final career job right. They wanna be director of data science and they've only had limited experience and definitely no experience managing managers or anything like that. So keep the keep the target Within reach i think is a good way to go. Stay humble it. Just think about it. If you imagine if you end up getting to professorship you will have to be a post doc for awhile before before then so. It's kind of the same thing on the other side of the fence and it's really interesting that you mentioned this because it's been mentioned to me where the people which is start kajura cut back a little bit on your ambition. Keep it there but in the in the back burner prove yourself and then with with all the beggars you have the work ethic. You have quickly. Then you'll be able to to evolve within a company or even you know beat vertically or laterally in company but have that humility of saying i am not. I don't have real world experience in this domain. Let's start from from the. I don't know how the from the the mail right and then and then go then go up. It's really really really really important. Point that that kayla sharing and i just wanted to underline eaten into because an attitude. That's to Ambitious ambitious can come out can come off as being arrogant and then you will not have that position. Yeah exactly and i think this is something also worth noting here. I'm and it's something that i was completely blind to as a graduate student. And that's a moving up. The corporate ladder is not about. Who's the best. it's just not about. Who can help the most people right. So you don't get that manager directorship. vp position. Because you're the smartest in the room you get it because you will be able to help the people who report into you in the people that you report to the most in that position i and so. There's almost no room for ego enter. I think especially coming out of academia some of the maybe more famous professors armchairs and you know by canada research chairs tend not to be the most humble people all the time. And so you might think. That's the pathway to success. But i don't think it is in the modern workplace and one of the other things is once once you've understood this and and you've understood that you're gonna go into an organization where you'll have to learn a lot. Well you'll have to learn a lot which means the people within the organization will have to interact with you and teach you things and you want to you. Want them to to to have that. Be a pleasant experience you know and if you again come off as i know everything i don't need you know i'd i've reached the top of the chain of of knowledge. Then you're missing that opportunity completely and most certainly you won't go pass that first interview because people need someone who integrate with the team and like you said we're collaboratively and and make the whole team move forward. No it's it's a important point in. It's not often that it's that it's talked about. I'm really grateful to that. You mentioned that now my question my next question would be more to do with because you mentioned amazon. You mentioned something. Which which was. I didn't really start networking or tried to contact people in the industry until almost the end of of my phd. Would you advise people to. Even though they're still wanting to three used to go to start already or waiting waiting until the end is is okay too. I would say aim to start out around twelve to fifteen months out from when you'll have your diploma. I'm you know it's always weird with a phd because you submit and then you defend them and you walk Most places don't want to hire you at least in my experience. They don't wanna hire you until you actually have the diploma in hand especially if you have any type of visa international i've been going on and then i'm a you know if you start three years out you know you. You might wind up connecting with people who are not going to be at that company any longer or maybe they're interested in it technologies that aren't going to be relevant by the time you graduate. I'm your problems that aren't going to be relevant anymore and You know you. You also don't want flood the market with too many connections and just have eight thousand lincoln connections then just getting rejected. Yeah i told the fifteen months out. You had a the other day at the hardware store picking up a started. I and i was wearing a google cloud hat and the cashier asked me if i was data science just graduating now i and know that's all i turns out. He's a mcgill cops. I student graduated is gonna graduate in may but you know i give him my card until him to contact me when he's he's going to be able to start working and i think that's about the right timing you know so so for sure. Start working on your say portfolio way ahead Like more more like one one year to us before but but thinking about networking more closer to the last year. It it it does make sense. Said there's a question of of of the the context still being pertinent to the reality of today in the industry that you're looking at for sure and and yeah and also the fact that people who are hiring do want do are looking for people that are finishing or that have that have just finished it. Totally totally make sense now. So how did you go about so by the end of ci you. You now knew that. That's what you wanted to do. How did you go about Having those first contacts and getting to that first position. I'm so i applied to hundreds of jobs about a couple interviews. I'm a lot of lot of startups gave me. Call bags i but they were pretty undeveloped. N n i got two offers both through network connections i. It happened the the position. I took with barris. It happened that somebody else had accepted the job offer. And then i had to turn it down at the last minute and so they were scrambling to find somebody for this position before. The fiscal year ran out. I'm ed so i got streamlined. Into something like eleven or twelve interviews over the course of like a week or two i. Yeah it was a big plus. A lot of debate was any you know. I'd say that that hasn't changed too much in the industry. It's pretty common to go through a large number of interviews. I especially if you're trying to get a job in got a startup or someplace where people are doing research and development if they really want to make sure their investment in you is is worth it. I'm and so yeah wound up being a lot of luck and much more privileges the right word here but but probably in that you know these are people who recommended me for the job and then there wound up being You know opening. I so it's important to keep with it and you know if you don't have that network it's probably a good idea to reach out to alumni or friends who may have got into it or you know even if you can just get your name onto the interview pile or the The review pile at then go a long way And so now i'm curious. Of course you know. You mentioned eleven interviews. Can you just give the listeners. Kind of a thirty thousand feet view of what. That looks like what what's happening. Not maybe not in each of them. But what are the different hurdles that they want you to to get to pass a different at each step until you finally get the yes. Yeah so there was like a an hr interview to just confirm a work eligibility and salary expectations. Which is always a difficult conversation. When you're a grad student. I am there. Were some so. There is a homework problem where they you know. They sent me a fiscal as mt cars. If you know that our package no data set from the seventies trying to figure out miles per gallon fuel efficiency. I'm and so did that Submitted the homework assignment. Then i had an interview to talk about the homework assignment. Asset interviews with technical people at interview with some people testing soft skills and then a final interview where i presented one of the chapters for my phd research. Program app as research problem. I i will say that The the position i was going for was on a research development team is specifically so i think the interview process probably a little bit more intense. Spend in more prescriptive work and even to this day. Our interviews are maybe half as intense as what i just mentioned. But they're still pretty intense. We have a hacker rank assignment with got a panel discussion a couple interviews with hr with the hiring manager and that finally with the the bp toss okay so so imagine like you said preparing to some extent you can prepare. You can You can practice with someone but there's a lot of the the interview process that is unknown that you learn just the day that to their. What would help people out there. Are there ways to even though you can. You cannot prepare for the specific thing that's going to happen at the specific the specific interview other excises websites places or a resource. That you advice people should read through or take part in to start getting kind of the hang of what these types of of demands or exercises may be i. Yeah so you know Definitely practicing. You're elevators pitch on having some Sense about what. The company does maybe. Look up once you get your schedule. Look up your interviewees. On linked dan order. Whatever you can. I'm becky go a long way. I remember distinctly reading the research papers from between hired me before the interviews. And i think that helped a lot. I'm in terms of like general questions you know. I think there's a lot of resources out there. I'm there when it comes to the hard skills. It's not something you can really prepare for if that's kind of have to have them already but Those they're probably testing for you. Know how you get along with the team of. Are you going to have an ego issues. You're going to cause problems those kind of things and it's probably more of a check for red flags than it is. A this person is the most fun person ever so you mentioned just before reaching the end of the interview but you just mentioned really quickly the difficulty of the salary talk and i remember i had this issue and i remember in the company that i that i worked with when i finished my phd. People coming in you know the it was. Oh it's it's hard. It's it's difficult to know because we're coming from grad school where your time is really not valued at least in monetary the monetary aspect Do you have any tips for people to kind of prepare. I think you mentioned another. I think you mentioned one thing. That i that i think is very important which is humility at to to a certain extent but then you still want to know. Kind of what ballpark. no people might be expecting. Or or what ballpark. Might be okay when you go to an interview and canada to know if you have any advice on that. Yeah so i think about how to say this. I'm you're probably more likely to. I'm get rejected for an offer for putting a too high salary. Ask than you are to get underpaid By putting too low a mark right. I'm eight may. In fact health. You put a lower mark in terms of getting an offer if two candidates and they're the same and one's gonna once twenty percent more than the other probably go with the one who money. But it's also i mean at least for my company and i can't speak for other ones. We're we're not looking to go out and and Take advantage of people so somebody says they want a four forty thousand dollars. A year and position was earmarked to pay between. You know ninety one hundred and they're a great candidate we're not going to offer them forty. That would be insane right. I we you know. We're looking for a sustainable. Run stick around for a long time so you wanna put them in a place where they're not gonna wanna leave after eighteen months of experience and just go somewhere else for two and a half three times what they were getting paid from you because he took advantage. I'm and so hopefully where you work at. The people who are in charge are not looking to take advantage of the employees. I and you know if if it's probably not the right place ago but yeah you can do market research on class store. I if you can find out anything about their promotions and raises that could probably also go a long way so some companies limit. You know you can't get more than ten percent a year or something like that. I am so then. You'd want to be more aggressive in your upfront costs or upper price whereas you know if a company says You know your pay will scale with your quality than you know. Really it's about getting offer and improving your value and so maybe you lose out on six months or a year of for you could've made but long-term you're bringing a lot more money. I think you covered it in. Its it makes a lotta sense so some some humility not not. Don't think you're gonna be like savagely here taking advantage of. It's not but be sure that if you over ask you will be relegated to. You know you won't probably will not be chosen because there's there's brackets that the company is looking for. That's what i understand. Not and they're not just brackets. But you know if let's say i've got one hundred thousand dollars to pay somebody with right and they want one twenty right. I could probably go out and get that extra twenty thousand dollars but that same person is going to be happy in a year and a half or two years when they get that raise and it's one percent they were already paying them the bottom of what they wanted and so they're just not gonna stick around and so they're not a good higher excellent. Well killion said. Leo time is over. This has been a great conversation in this talk of of pay is one that i haven't had yet on the podcast and i'm really happy again. That the we were able to talk about that. Because it's very sensitive it's can be nerve racking and people can feel very lost in this in those first first interviews. I for the first position. So i think you put a very balanced picture of what things are kind of what to expect. And what attitude to have soy yeah. I really really appreciate that kevin. Now the really reaching the end. I like to maybe share One or two pieces of advice people are now at home. You know covid keeping most of people especially people in wet. Labs away from their experiments. There are many words of your courage. And and maybe advice to on the side of working on the networking. Now that they're at home something something like that for the listeners out there so i think the whole world has changed on this front. You know i. There just aren't the same opportunities to network as there were a year ago. And so you know things. I seen are people kind of setting up link in networking finding friends of friends. Just you know having a conversation in doing so Light comedian laura. You don't wanna overwhelm somebody who don't know questions but i'm it's it's gotta be really difficult. I'd probably lean heavily on a night. Networks i if i were trying to graduate now and try to find a job A friends of friends male friends. You know any anything really. Do you know you could probably use it even to your advantage in that i'm sure Universities are holding these networking events. And there probably isn't a ton of attendance and one of the things that has helped me in the past. Is that the more. I you know interview with the more i talk to people about a topic more comfortable i in the better comes off and so maybe you know just putting a low investment into each wanted emotional investment. It's each one but doing a lot of these events could be really beneficial to a perspective. Hires i talked to a lot of different people and kind of brush up their game. But i do feel for people who are currently in grad school and trying to find jobs because it must be very difficult it is and hopefully this eventually subsides doesn't look like right now but you know the somehow things to to move on and and and to presume to a certain extent but it's it's just not in the horizon when we look right now. Yeah killing. i really appreciated talking with you and I imagined that People who releasing might want to reach out to you. Do you want to share. You have Any anything to share about. I know how to reach out to you and maybe also about about very school. You know where people are curious about. What the company does where the confirmed this information. Yeah i'd love to connect with people who found this conversation interesting or have comment sir or questions. Whatever i'm taking reach me on lincoln. I'm so i presume. Bike is on the website. I it's going to be in the show notes. Yeah my name is a little bit complicated to spell. So i won't go through that right now but definitely check out the show notes And it's just to be searched google for my name. I am the only one in the world. That's great have you. Have you reserved your dot com. No i honestly. I'd have to tell people to go to my name dot com that's shores i and as far as What paris does that. We're a multinational corporation. I think thirty seven different countries and we work on property and casualty insurance things like automobile and homeowners and business liability. We don't get involved in health or life really. I'm involved not selling insurance. What we do. Is we build the analytics to help. Insurers price risk so i i built out a product bed faces or should face when it's fully implemented a forty percent of the commercial auto market and help them figure out which vehicle features will drive insurance risk. And you know how likely you are to get into an accident. Then it's simple things like how big of an engine horsepower. Torque and some simple things. I won't get into her ear isn't and we do a lot in in different areas in canada. We've got some energy risk offices a wood. Mackenzie they're focused on Risking logging and mining activities so Environmental impact. I some of our offices in boston. A work with nasa on You know by a derived from the experts in hurricane modeling try and now they work with nasa on things like the mars probe to predict weather and where they should put down. rovers and all sorts of cool stuff like that i so we have our hands on a lot of different things. It's it's a good company to work for. I think we treat our employees well and there's lots of research and development opportunities. I think we have two to four hundred data scientists now and a lot of other people in our indeed that are technically data scientists. Okay well this sounds very interesting and again. It's really cool to see how diversified the same kind of the same company can be in terms of what problem. They're trying to solve but that the the brains behind it ended up end up having to be to be doing the same job of looking at a problem in finding finding solutions for specific objectives like mars. Who like predicting weather on mars. I wouldn't have imagined that. sure ceylan. Thanks a lot for your time. This was a great conversation. And i think beat for people interested in data science or not. You know we talked about things that i think. Apply for anyone who's doing a phd in thinking about their career. After so so yeah i would just want to thank you. Happy to have Been invited and this is a really fun conversation. So thank you. And that's it for this week's episode if you want to reach out to kaelin or thank him for. He shared doing this interview. Follow the link in the show notes. You'll find them papa. Peachy ford slash ninety eight. And be sure to follow papa peachy on twitter and instagram at papa peachy podcast and also on facebook n lincoln and now it's time for this week's and now it's time for this week's podcast discovery segment with length apology and deer grad student. Do you love plants. Don't be silly of course you do. You might just not know it yet. I'm vic rhumba league. The host of the plant their apology. Podcast the show where we dive into the lives and careers of some really cool plant. People join each episode. Is i chat with students. Scientists and professionals in the natural sciences and figure out what keeps them coming back for more. We'll explore their work. The ways they got into their fields why they love plants in nature so much and why you should love those things to plant their apologies laid back and conversational and we'll keep you laughing and engaged whether you're a scientist or not follow along for this adventure in the sciences and keeping a really cool playing people. Hi i'm alana. And i'm a fourth year p. h. d. student. I'm more than likely re editing not manuscript for the twenty second time or maybe i'm in my fourth zoom meeting. Today i can tell but mostly i'm probably working on my podcast. It's called dear grad student. And it's a podcast for grad students to celebrate commiserate and support one another through grad school. Each week i interview other grad students and academics about their experience from imposter syndrome sicom dealing with mentors racism academia. Or you know all the other joys that come along with grad school not a grad student. Maybe you're thinking about grad school. Maybe you just finished and you really want to reminisce about the painfully glorious days. Either way. I think you should come check it out. You can find the podcast. Dear grad student dot bus brought dot com twitter dot com slash dear grad student or under favorite podcast app. New episodes are posted every monday. And until my warmest regards best wishes sincerely alana and that's it for today. Thanks for being a listener. Happy listening and happy sharing. Thanks for listening to another episode of the papa. Phd podcast head over to papa. Phd dot com for show notes and for more food for thought about non-academic post grad careers. I'll always be happy to share inspiring stories. New ideas in useful resources on the podcast. So make sure you subscribe on. I tunes or wherever you get your podcasts. To always keep up with the discussion and to hear from latest guests.

kaelin mcgill ceylan google galen kovic david mendez kaylin mcgill skull trace mcgill biograd university barbara gough university of potsdam Graffman Keelan germany caitlyn kovic mcgill university canada kajura
Balancing Research, Art, and Entrepreneuship With Sarah Nersesian

Papa Phd Podcast

56:21 min | 4 months ago

Balancing Research, Art, and Entrepreneuship With Sarah Nersesian

"Hi this week on the show. I'm talking with sarah. Says the beach researcher who pursues many passions and interests in life while remaining a scientist at heart during our conversation. We talk about making decisions during your academic journey about finding ways of nurturing your creative side during your phd and about the important role. Mentor's can play in your life especially as a woman in academia and it's not that male professors can't understand but at the same time they haven't carried children they haven't had to balance the I would say like the expectations of being away of being a mom and also of being passionate about academia and listening to some of the struggles that both to be mentors of mine Have faced but still you know are constantly pushing are constantly being successful of making themselves accessible and fitting into a world that you know has constantly tried to push them out. Multiple times is what. I need intimate. Welcome to papa. Phd with david mendez. The podcast where we explore careers and life after grad school with guests who have worked the road less traveled and have unique stories to tell about how they made their place in the world of constantly evolving rules. Get ready to go off the beaten path and huchon for an exciting new episode of welcome to this week's episode of papa. Phd this week with me. I have sarah intercession. Sarah is a passionate researcher who loves to share scientific knowledge through illustrations and visual communication strategies. She obtained her masters in biochemistry and cell biology at queens university and this currently completing her phd in microbiology and immunology at dalhousie university focusing on exploring the impact of intercultural immune cells on tumor development and treatment responses over her academic journey. She has published research in journals including scientific reports uncle. -nology frontiers of immunology the journal of immunotherapy of cancer and the british medical journal. Many of these publications were accompany were accompanied. By her custom scientific illustrations with her unique expertise combining scientific communication strategies with illustration and graphic design. Sarah founded designs that sell into in twenty seventeen. Sarah's vision for the company was a space where signed artists such as herself and others could combine the scientific foundation with their visual communication skills to illustrate the ideas of other members of the scientific community. She's a senior illustrator designs that cell and oversees all its operations. Welcome to proper phd. Sarah so sarah of course we we we will talk about designs that sell But i'd like a first to hear about your academic journey so far You know you've you have this project that's ongoing now But yet talk about about what came before and If you had other projects or s- or side projects during During your master. Let's say cher cher about that because one of the things that i want to show is to inspire listeners. Out there who have some creativity they want to give voice to per example or it could be an entrepreneur an entrepreneurial idea to inspire them to enter to find ways to make those things happen while successfully also completing their degrees. So just tell us your story and how you got to to. Where you are today fisher. And how far back do you wanna start. Are we thinking undergrad or thinking school. Well could be undergrad. Undergrad i think disclaim that the reason that i was gonna talk about high school was that During reach while when i had to make the choice about universities i had the option of going into science or going into art and i made a tough decision with a very heavy hand played by my parents who i really thought our wasn't a viable career option. And so you know as a seventeen year old. I wasn't too sure what i was gonna do with my life and so i listened to my parents. I trusted i went into sciences. I started in environmental sciences and learned. That i really hated policy and law and it was not for me and environmental. Science has a very heavy hand in those subjects. So actually i switched my major twice during my undergrad and i went into bio just biological sciences for a year and then finally ended up in biomedical sciences at the university of wealth. I'm survey graduated by god within Twenty sixteen and then About a after my exam. I did a crazy thing and move to kingston and started my masters like next week so i started my masters right away and started to And it was really exciting. I was really excited to go to queens. I'm the project was really enticing. I was really excited to work with my supervisors and So i took that project which was Developing an antibody drug conjugate for women's cancers. And i did that. Project at university did my masters and Finished thought in about a year and a half. So i kind of really pushed it in fast track so i could have some time after and then i'm did something really strange and wasn't sure what i wanted to do so i applied to medical school and also pie to bunch of programs. is ended up getting into medical school at dalhousie in queens university and ended up going to hiawassee because of a research in medicine program So i moved to halifax from kingston again a brand new city which was a little bit scarier because it was across the country. I know some people move. Entire countries for their schools are not always really impresses. Me so yeah. I'm in halifax now. And i did med school for about a year and a half before i really realized that i missed the lab and i missed a lot of space. Thought is present in research academia four creativity for thinking outside the box on in academia. It's kind of like one of the very few subjects where breaking the rules is just as important as following them And kind of follows along the same beat as art. So yeah. that's kind of. That's my academic journey. And that's where i am now just kind of finishing my first year my phd. It's interesting how people really have different ways They end up getting to to their pd. And the and it's interesting that you gave yourself i. Well you kind of followed it was i. I must say the same for me. Followed your parents kind of pushed to follow science versus the arts my case it would have been languages and You know but but it's interesting that then you you got accepting medicine and you allow yourself to say okay. you know. i'm there's something. I'm missing and although maybe around you and a i i'm just imagining but people might have been like how what you're in medicine in. Houston you allowed yourself to to really feel what you wanted. What where you were envisioning yourself in the future and and and thriving and and made that that decision. It's i think it's it's brave. It's a it's it's It's a grownup thing to do in a way and And i think it's a good message for listeners out there that Sometimes or in key moments like this. You really need to hear to give to listen to yourself to what you would you know in your core. What is calling you and especially medicine. I don't decide to be a doctor. It's it has like very important consequences on what you're going to do you know the type of day-to-day life. You're going to have it sets. There's a lot of repercussions very very interesting. It was a difficult choice. But i haven't regretted. It wants to be honest people are. I would say surprised by that. I would say the people who know me best or not And they really see me fitting. In past in academia and thriving aware as i found myself in medical school really anxious really not feeling like i was able to practice or exercise my creativity and that like intellectual curiosity. It just isn't really the focus of medicine. And i found that unhappiest when i'm challenging myself and i can do this best when i'm directing my projects in when i'm kind of making decisions about ideas You know with practicing medicine right now. A lot of the things that are actually being put into place in the fields are all based on guidelines in research. And there's not a lot of room for You know going outside the norm because you're working with patients in you know you don't want to be doing crazy things so patients but i enjoy doing crazy things with you. Know cancer cells and therapies. So yeah it's a space where you can do that cool and now the you know we have talked about creativity a lot and we're going to talk more about it later but you you. I'm just wondering during undergrad During your master's excuse me during your masters where there already projects was. Were there already outputs your finding for this creativity. I mean i never stopped painting so that something. I have done since i was little. I painted my entire bedroom to a fantasy landscape. That's how passionate i was about painting. I really love art. I just find that it is able to put me in a space in is able to help me communicate Some things that. I've never been able to communicate in words and Yeah so i continued painting. All through my undergrad and when i got actually into my honours project i was presenting my science. I realized that. Oh i have to actually go and find you know specific figures that i want this component. I don't want this component. I want this narrow that mike arnie or something along those lines and so. That's when i realized that i could just you know draw this and so i kind of did that and presented a word everyone including the professors. I was working with question where i got them. You know who made them for me like why was there. No citations like these are gray And that was kind of the start of it. And it just didn't stop and i realized that i could kind of like funnel this artistic passion that i had or this focus into Doing it for my science and it became something that was like why being productive and working on my you know departmental seminar but at the same time i'm like making art and it's just the best thing ever it could even become Depending on on in just doing art without being for project he could get could be considered like productive procrastination in a way like. I think that's a really good way to describe me actually. I'm a very productive procrastinating. That's that's very good. And i think creative stent to to to be a lot like that. Now what about during your masters did you. I imagine anything had to do with with illustrating your science. You were. You were doing yourself. Which is great often in the lab where people are look are you know. There's the go-to person or i don't know if that could be an office or people who take care of that but you in your case you were able to to do that. People coming to you for stations. Yeah so that's not starting to become actually a business idea. And i would love to say that i'm naturally entrepreneurial but i think more so it's just okay you know. I really don't wanna work as a cashier. Don't want to you know. Have a part time job because that's what i'm able to work around my schedule but is not give me any skills that gonna give me anything But also you know. It's not exactly what i want to be doing in the future and i prefer to develop skills that i know are going to be useful and so i started thinking about how to make money off this. I ended up getting hired on as a summer. Communications intern for the canadian. Cancer trials group which is currently the nci see and through that opportunity. Which really just ended up coming from a couch. Lake conversation in a lobby with on one of the lead. Communicator is at c. C. t. g. Who said you know. This is a really difficult skill to have. And you understand all the science and you are also able to produce these graphics. We're trying to create a bunch of import graphics or patients who are going to be involved in clinical trials. And so i think that was my first paid on experience doing science communication or doing scientific ulcerations for somebody else. That was actually paid Before that obviously if you're meets know that your skeleton something if anything grad students are good at finding other people to do the things that we don't want to do so i had been making illustrations my grad members. Yeah for for. Probably my entire masters. As well as i started becoming. That person on people came to I it was just my lab. Then it was labs that were kind of around our lives and then eventually The the kind of cancer research department at queen's now almost like their own in house illustrating that's very cool and now in terms of you mentioned to me before we started interview having had some experience in university radio. And i'm asking this. Because i want to kind of get to how these experiences and these things are done on the side of your project how they influence who you meet opportunity opportunities that arise so the way. I want to paint a picture of how you were besides doing your masters project in this case you were also going and and you know following these opportunities and having these other experiences that would not related specifically to your blab Yeah i definitely did. A lot of that I generally like to keep a pretty balanced lifestyle. Now say balance. I mean balance between academic work and other work because pass that honestly In in all reality all interviews. It i give. I have very little time for anything that is outside of like my academia my work and my family and that's kind of weird answer me Which is not something about at all. It's actually extremely fulfilling. It's just that. I know how i liked to fill my schedule. So i just wanna have out his disclaimer. Because i don't think it's realistic to you know. Listen to a grad student. You fill up their calendar with eight different things I want people to be comparing themselves are to me because i don't think that's healthy. I don't think it's useful ams. I put a disclaimer out. That yeah i don't i don't get a lot of sleep and i don't get to have You know a lot of free time. But that's something that i choose so Yeah so during my master's i did a few things I actually brought a branch of a nonprofit organization that i was a founding member of at the university of which is known as indigo girls group. So this is a passion in that ipod since i was younger which is female empowerment especially at kind of like the preteen teenage girls. Where some of that confidence goes away. Girls go to high school. And i'm sure we all how fun highschool Yeah so obviously. A lot of hurdles and Girls aren't often taught the skills necessary. To thrive and be confidence. will also be able to deal with a lot of the criticism that comes with that See now being called The b word. I don't know if i can swear. So i'm just i'm just gonna be good. It's a clear podcast. So we're going to be clear sky at lake. Not the kindest words words like snippy. So those kind of traits frequently got associated. Whenever you know you're making leadership decisions that other one thing i mean. I don't think i would hate that. But you know. I don't like snippy. I don't like The b word. I don't like bossy even Sheriff that's in the context of like having good leadership skills by at the same time. My leadership style i feel is You know very open and collaborative. And so i don't. I don't like the connotations that come with just because i am competent and i am a certain way you know but anyway so i brought this organization to kingston and founded our first branch And that's a lot of time in terms of my extracurricular is so I hired a team. They started making club rations with the school board and indigo girls functions mainly on our programming which is author school. Programming girls agreed six to eight. So as soon as i started my masters i started out. Branch there An excitingly now. We have like seven branches across canada. Which is crazy. Yeah ends on if anyone's in universities like in halifax winnipeg toronto ottawa. Agwu of court. I think kingston so all those locations and more popping up now so it's a good way to get involved with You know teaching but also learning. I learned a lot from going. You know especially during my master's in it just helped me keep things into real world context And really kept me grounded and focused on like what was important. And i felt that you know in grad school in academia and any program. You can get so in hold and really lose sight of what's important and what the goals are. And i found that you know indigo girls really helps with real lining those focuses and You know keeping what's important importance and forgetting the experiment. That didn't work once because in the end is not gonna change. You know it's not gonna change. My world is not going to change anybody's world. That's what experiment and that's what it is so that helped me what another thing. I did not see you mentioned the radio. I did as part of the indigo girls. I got invited to a lot of different opportunities. Actually that both helped me academically as well as socially but one of those things was women's world radio which i did at campus radio show interviewing which was a lot of fun. This was like dress when podcasts were starting to become popular so It was very podcasting in Essentially was me and my colleague haley. Who was an undergraduate students and The lead for the indigo girls can branch and she. And i would just try to boot Issues that faced feminism in twenty seventeen twenty eighteen when meet thought There there is a lot of other extracurricular activities. Poke mago came out at the time. And i'm a huge gamer. So that's what i'd say malik. Free time goes to you. But yeah i was doing a lot of pokemon around kingston lake to the point where me and the mvp. Also my lab would run out for a rare polka monitoring experiment and half to down for yeah Yeah and obviously like going home. I actually got a puppy during my master's me and my partner So we had a puppy that raising a riley who is hanging out with me right now. Yeah so that was another kind of fun challenge but also exciting indefinitely worthwhile super interesting and maybe in partout we can talk a little bit about this question of empowerment of this case. Young girls who might. Let's say one to come into the stem domain and who you know without some someone opening opening their horizons might not imagine themselves being in research or or or no being a lawyer or whatever that in the past and culturally has been very things that have been associated very much with male images. I think it's it's a very very cool project and really happy that you mentioned it could cause that hadn't come up before before we started recording. It's i think it's a really important part of who i am. And i really important. Contributors to the confidence i brought into academia from an external source said was unexpected like breeds. Great six to eight girls you anyway. Maybe we'll talk a little bit about that later about the reality of being a woman in stem i. It's something that i find interesting and very timely but one of the things and we're almost getting to the end of this first part of the interview one of the things that kind of getting from what you said is you have said it in passing is when i'm doing when i'm working on this project. That is a passion that i you know. I'm deeply invested in that experiment. That didn't work does not affect me. you know does not ruin my week or my day and this tunnel vision thing that might fall into and you mentioned also people coming from abroad to in from the other side of the ocean. If if you're just doing your research and you don't have a community or you don't have the passion project a on the side. You might easily fall into this kind of trap of over identifying with your results and and being overly affected by these failures. Which are you know the bread and butter of science haley fairly fair and it only makes the success is more powerful. You know only makes the publication that you get at the end you know more meaningful if you don't work for it then it's not worth the thing you know that he's through but the important point and again especially if you're coming from abroad you're maybe thinking okay. I should give ilo Sixty eighty hours a week for my project. I think you you shouldn't forget or overlook your mental health having a social life of of some kind because we are you know we are social beings. After all and i think having and getting involved in in projects like this in which you are invested because there's there are values that are being upheld that the mean a lot to you can really enrich you but also balanced december of of Small failures that can happen in the lab. Let's say so you know even through indigo girls. We have a workshop on failures and redefining failures in like thinking about failures. Like what is a failure and you know in my life like tons of people say that. But there's so much truth to it You know if somebody who looked at my cv. There'd be super in price and you know with praise x. Lions ad but like if i honestly put together an illegal failure. Cb would be like a novel. It would be thicker than the bible like the reality. I've had so many people closed doors in my face. I've had so many people question. Why i've been outta table. Why been doing something And i think like you know having that worth that self worth divided and not having into just your research project like you're saying david is so important because i don't look at myself as like okay. I'm a scientist. And if i'm not a scientist and am nothing else is no. I'm a scientist and entrepreneur artist. And i'm a role model and i am a feminist and have these identifiers you know and like i a wife now and a dog mom and there's like all these things that i hold myself worth into something i questioned. Something it's not everything Anyway i think actually your. I think you've said it all in this last sentence. I this is maybe the half point of the interview. I don't know i. I have nothing else to say. What you just said. It's it's i think it really encapsulates. What i what i find is the message or the message that i'd love people to take from this first part of our conversation. Sarah we're going to take a we're gonna take a small break and then resume and then talk about this reality of being. A creator and entrepreneur end a researcher Which i think is a lot of people today and have a -tunities to either start a blog or do scientific illustration and may be afraid of starting of may not feel very secure about telling people they're they're doing something else on the side so we'll talk about that in in the second part of our conversation because i think it's really important to kind of again open people's horizons on that. Hi and welcome to the break today. I'm not going to take too much of your time before going back to my conversation with sarah. I just want to remind you that if you want to buy me a coffee and helped me stay awake at late. Hours of the night Editing these episodes you can now just go to buy me a coffee dot com papa peachy and do just that and if you leave me a message and your twitter or instagram handle. I will give you a shout out in the next episode. It'll be my pleasure. And i'll be immensely grateful and now back to my conversation with sarah nurse at the end of part one. I was really happy that you mentioned something which is well talking about all these things i do i could. I could show you if i if i wrote a failure. Cv it'd be you know super thick and And i think one of the important things especially in the podcast like this where i'm interviewing people. Is you know we're going to talk about what brought people's projects people successes but it is important and thank you for mentioning it to mention that. There's everyone goes through some amount of failures if you doing research and working to a phd and working -demia in research a lot of failure until you get an article. Or we know breakthrough. Sarah do you agree for sure. I mean i can relate more frequently than probably expect but last month i Spent two hundred hours on one experiment and it failed. And i review it this september tower and i definitely was not planning on reading it and it was a huge pain. But that's just one example of you know you can schedule your life. You can plan everything perfectly to and leave time but failures are still going to sneak their way in and challenge your productivity. No matter who you are that is true. Those now what i'd like to talk in the second part of our conversation is about how you. Life is organized. Today about design designs that cell and by the way listeners. Cell is spelled c. e. l. l. Tonight spun because i think today and you know there's a lot of people that can't go to lab stuck. They're stuck at home. Maybe it's the moment to think of projects they have. They've had on their mind for a while. Or this enterpreneurial idea you know. Maybe it's the time to put it down on paper and start making it happen and given that you've had this practice for awhile now of having your projects your academic your academic life plus a blessing leading different projects on the side Elected talk about a little bit. What i what design designs that cell has become now that you said that the scope has widened. And how you you've you've built it into a business and and also how you things work so that that you have your work life you have your family life and you have the business that you develop and you make all of this work with some sort of balance in some sort of balance. The key i think for me is lexa ability and everything that i do And i think that's why personally i was so miserable in. Medicine is because her absolutely no flexibility. And so i would say you know if somebody asked me what day to day. Looks like covert has really changed. Things There was a span of time whereas at home. And you know i had to shift my phd projects A little bit to be a little bit more hands off and on more bioinformatics. Luckily i already hide some of that in my project so i definitely was in a better place than a lot of phd students. That i know. I was lucky. In that regard but day to day. I would say why flexibility is important is because running a business and doing that's and also being available As like a family member an active person in my family is you know being able to take what is the most important hard housing that and then going back from there and at the end of it. When you've done the best that you can really looking at what's been lapsed. If there is anything left and not beating yourself upward but rather cleaning and like maybe re strategizing how things are part in my life and i'm not gonna lie there who benefit times where i've been in situations that i've definitely taken on too much and i've had to respectfully decline or it had to go back on things and absolutely hate doing that but in reality when you do so many things that's going to be an experience that you have to experience and especially when you really wanna do something. It really sucks when you can't And so one of those examples is actually indigo girls group which i sat on the board of directors once it became an established nonprofit for three years So i just actually left this june and that was a really hard stop it. Was you know taking a step back from something that i had essentially like built up and built a community and it was my baby but also it was time to kind of move on from not and focused and refocused and one of the things that refocused on into is designed that cell. And so the time that i used to spend on girls. Group has now become the time that i spent a little bit more on designs. That solid you know you're asking like what hit has evolved to an a. That has been shifting. The amount of time that i prioritize two different things. What's weird about my schedule is that i have meetings with people that are you know lake very hardcore but i'm not the type of person who is going to schedule. Every five minutes of my life. I used to function like that and under god and they actually found that. I was a lot more miserable. Because i have this at oh and i was functioning on like what needed to be done rather than what i wanted to do. And so i've shifted it a little bit. So that i have now my lake daily and weekly goals and i know this sounds very cliche but honestly it's what works and having daily goals could be as easy as hey. I'm doing this podcast today. So you do a good job at that podcast here on. That's gonna take a little bit of time to think in And then probably a little time after to like you know. Sit instant insane with things and not swallow. I'll be like okay. That's gonna take like three hours of my day Other things i had to wrap up An illustration project today so did that this morning and allocated like an hour for it. But i felt like doing it right as soon as i woke up so i know that i have time to do everything in the day but i can choose to do things when i liked to and obviously at like five o'clock sometimes. I hate myself because i walk things. But i find that this expressed So weekly glows daily goals and also on making sure that my calendars color coded so that there is enough balanced between things that i have to do and things that i'm going to enjoy and i color coded based on that which is probably a little different than most people do but it also helps me visually. See how i'm doing. Because i am as a very visual person so i can see okay. You know this week. I had like forty hours of things to do and nothing to enjoy. I'm gonna scratch off one day from this weekend and Go camping or something. How to reestablish the balance. I love it i really love it and i'm pretty visual and that would definitely work for me to feel okay. This week was was very red. Green yeah no. I really liked the idea and and scheduling. It's like two bit like you know having checklists it helps taking stuff off your head which can give you exciting or or you know. Keep you preoccupied. Putting putting them on paper. I really really like that. And and of course you mentioned earlier that well you don't need a lotta sleepers lease you don't you. Don't get a lot of sleep. Not everyone has has that phenotype let's say but but i think everyone can find ways and strategies to give themselves cues of how things are going to to Allow themselves To to to see okay. I i i this week. I need to give myself a tweet. I haven't done it yet. I need to put it somewhere. I think it's great grades strategy. Weekly check in that you can do with yourself and just real line and now about The the the business part of it itself. It's because people out there are doing different Different projects maybe. They have a business idea to do with their project. Maybe it's a skill. they have a on the side. It be blogging. Writing could be many things but how how's the process of making it know a business In a certain sense how do you launch something on the side of your pg. yeah so. I think something that people need to think about is what they're comfortable with Embarking on a business on your is the risk that's associated And a lotta times with a lot of passions that kind of converts into services so you know logging or illustrating or writing and so services are really unique in that you can scale them to what you're comfortable with and so you know when you're thinking i'm thinking i'm speaking to the listener. Who wants to start something. But it was anxious to say on the business owner. Or i'm going into business. You know it can start something that's freelance and are a ton of resources online but what i find best is to find a mentor. Who in your field. Who is able to give you some guidance and so i'm happy to mentor people. I have a mentor myself Who i will ask questions about business about illustrations about art and science. And she's able to provide me with that guidance mentorship and again is really important. Also that she's female because she's navigated some of the challenges that may be on somebody who doesn't look like knee hasn't so that's important is if you can find a mentor. Who understands You know whether it's like gender or race or whether it's culture find somebody who understands what The struggles that you might face are because it will be a different experience than if you do find somebody who doesn't relate to anything in your life and so that was really important. I also started my business through a start up. Grant which is the summer in our company grant in ontario which is a release granted. Three thousand dollars for the summer. But essentially in addition to that grant they also provide you with A learning opportunities you pair up with a entrepreneurial essentially like a startup engine or startup incubator. And they'll provide you with the resources and tools to make your business as as and that was really key for me. Because i had no business experience before going into this or quite memorable. I used to teach swimming lessons in my backyard. But this is a little different enzo I really got a lot of the key things. Okay you know. This is what you need to have in place for legal documents. This is what you need to have in place for insurance and a lot of that lake hardcore business advice end. I'm learning happened through that program. So i would encourage anyone to reach an kind of search out and seek out. Those opportunities to find guidance. Grew mentorship or through programs For designs that solid gun like the risk associated was quite small. I was gonna start up business and provide the service. And i would work as clients came in and i had the opportunity to say. No thank you that projects not for me Or you know. I don't have really like a lot of time right now but You know if this is not a rush project. And maybe i can take it on again. That flexibility is super important. I'm making sure that you're not locking yourself into like a contract that you know if this business fails and everything else fails worth it. I'm totally wanted to say you know like go. All in if you're really passionate like one hundred percent but for me. Like i don't know if i'm gonna be a scientific elevator forever. I hope that. I will be but i also don't know what's going to happen and i'm okay with that. I'm okay with just like following my passion and seeing where things go and yeah. This past year for designs at sal has been really successful so clearly. Something's working okay. So leave yourself or not. Put yourself in a situation of pressure. That's going to affect the other aspects of your life because i imagine if let's say you were not doing. Epg and you just going to start a business then you you know you. You put all the effort on there but because we're talking to people who are leading some research project and who might have an idea on the side. I think this idea or this concept of designing it in a way that it's going to be flexible that that it's it's you're gonna be able to take it at your own pace and that he will not negatively affect a very important thing. Which is your european project. I think it's it's a. It's a very sound very sound advice for sure financial to i just wanted to say that's also something you have to think about And and people always business not to put your own money and things and that's honestly like how you can keep it as low stresses possible is you know The way that we function right now. Is i pay myself. Like i would pay any employees and so the money that the business makes goes back into the business which is a great model to have Because essentially like it focuses on growth. Rather than i need me taking money for myself which i would probably spend on food in reality. Yes so you don't want to. Yeah i understand what you're saying which is What's that was at metaphor about the the goose with the golden eggs. You don't wanna kill the goose you wanna feed it and make it fatter. And then whenever he leaves an egg well you you take whatever is no. It's again very very sound advice. Very smart for anyone. Who does you can't dedicate full to to the side project because like like i'm saying the listeners out there are deciding whether they want to do peachy or they're in their on their post doc and they probably won't have this possibility of you know you can have more than twenty four hours in a day to be. Fortunately oh man things different. One sarah now. Maybe i don't know if there's something else you wanna talk about You did talk about about indigo girls. You talked about You know helping. Girls spf picture themselves differently and project themselves differently into the future but talked about something very that interests me a lot which is mentorship use. You mentioned that you you went and found a mentor. that was probably a scientific illustrator. Who was a woman. How did you go about finding this mentor. And you know how does or what pieces of advice really really inform the way you are. You're organizing your life today and you're living your life as a researcher and as a businesswoman. Yeah so the individual who. My mentor is I will name her. Because i think she's a fantastic resource. Julia krolik And she is a scientific illustrator but also does data visualization a lot of different components that come with presenting data but also just that bridge between science and art also for the sake of art is kind of where she focuses but she has multiple businesses that are successful alone and are ulcers accessible together. And she's been able to bridge all these different passions and all these different projects and create a life where she has all these different passions that she's filling together they create like what would be or wha- job would be but it doesn't look like what you know typically if somebody asked you what are you you know. You say one word like this i am. I'm a scientist. And then people understand but for her. She runs a nonprofit. She runs her own business and she's also very involved in science an art so that mentor vegas. I should say how i came across that. It was kind of handed to me. Which i'm i'm not complaining about. But she had actually been running her business through the same incubator. That i got my start up grant through so people connected us and it was just like a very very happy connection because is essentially had a role model who was living a life that i very much was thinking about living Because that's where i was going to go next is how did you end up finding a but now you kind of explained that yeah it was it was it was handed to you now. Just just to kind of go back to to to her You mentioned and i think it's very important. Listens out there who you know. Who are you know women in stem or or women. Which have they're they're they're working and they wanna create their business. There is this you know this boys club thing in in different domains of life and you mentioned that having a woman as a mentor was important for you. Can you just expand a little bit on. Why and how the that kind of affected the way you you to con these projects and maybe the way you live your life today. I think i would. I'm going to switch my mentor. That julia's fantastic. But i think to answer this question. I would like to talk about my supervisor. My current supervisor. As well as pasu provisory who has in the log with so i did both undergraduate and astor's degrees under male supervisors and then on the summer. After i finished my masters i worked in a lab with dr kotei university He was a bipartisan email. And the of working with her and seeing how she balances things in her life and how she spoke about you know the sexism that occurs in academia in her approach to it it was just so enlightening and also motivating. I felt that after my masters. And i think it was the type of research i was doing In which like. I preferred discovery based research to kind of hypothesis. Driven vary lake restrictive. And that's i think again like just personality. That i am but she kind of like opened the doors to all this discovery based research and all these ideas that she was testing out in really involve me in them And i also saw how she balanced her life. She is married to another academic daughter hasn't has dog You know has all these other extracurricular passions of including broadening and really inspired me. And from that moment i knew that i was going to have a mentor. Who i wanted to follow the needed to have that piece that i could relate to on which includes having a family and not and this is actually something. My current supervisor and i have chatted a lot about and i cannot say i. I don't think i could say enough. Good things about my current supervisor because honestly she so dr jeannette goudreau. Who is my current supervisor at housi- absolutely inspirational. She is constantly kind of chatting about what my goals are and how to reach those. I'm talking about designs. That sal promoting it to other individuals as madouri did as well dr not from queens as well as like also having being able to have conversations about having a family and that's gonna look like and You know what my plan is during my phd to do that and being open with her and being honest and being able to say. If i'm planning on getting pregnant at this point at this point and having those conversations. I think i'm really really lucky. But that is why. I think it's so important because they understand they're able to support and it's not that male professors can't stand but at the same time like they haven't harry children. They haven't had to balance the I would say like the expectations of being away of being a mom and also have been passionate about academia and listening to some of the struggles that both these mentors of mine Have faced but still you know are constantly pushing constantly being successful in making themselves accessible and fitting into a world that has constantly tried to push them out. Multiple times is exactly what. I need a mentor. Because i can talk to them and say i experience and they can give me real actionable advice. Very good and It's very inspiring. Which is what you're saying in in that you know. I wish everyone could have a have mentors like that. And and p is that were inspiring understanding and that could you know kind of champion. New in a way That question did you when you were looking for a phd opportunities. Did you look for a mentor. In your pi was it was intentional. Or was going to the luck of the draw. You found a subject that interested you and you ended up having a great pi. No i specifically looked up with you. Individuals actually been before. I went to medical school as i was crapping through my research and medicine project which has now become my phd project I so i had known dr joe for few years in that context. Before i started my peachy but i knew that if i was going to go back into graduate school another degree that that was one of my number one priority is was working on a project that i was passionate about that i was able to drive and have a say an and finding mentor. Who would support all my extracurriculars would not say. Oh no you know. You shouldn't be working that other job. Who say oh. That's a great opportunity and you can tie it in and incorporated in there was no question about. Oh will you have time to focus on your research. It was. I know you have. I know you work hard. And if you say that you could balance it than i had that trust a new as an adult learner to be able to do that. I don't have somebody feeding me or talking to child's because in reality graduate students. We're not kids. we're i twenty six years old. I shouldn't be told lakewood. I can't do what i do. And i find that with dr grow. You know i can speak to her. Like i'm speaking to another colleague and she respects my ideas as such and i think that's super important to give students the confidence that i am assigned belong in this community And then i've had this discussion before with other people with other guests that the term pt student kind of puts us mentally in the space of. Oh you still you still in school. You still in a way. The kid although i'm exaggerating and and some people have told me that That they actually stopped using the term a phd student. They say peach research or something else. And i've even had interviews with people in europe where they have contracts that are like they're like there's a phd researcher contract and the for them. There's no question about. I'm an adult and that you know i'm just working towards the degree but i'm adult working in producing something. It's it's very interesting. I think we're at the end of the interview. I think really really good point. You just made with the story that you told is if you're out there looking for a phd or looking for a post op but it's different because you already more independent but for a phd. Really try to find not only the subject that interests you but a culture in the institute of lab you go to end and try to get a feel of of how how this long relationship that i'm going to have with the pi. How can flourish what you know. What space will it. Give me to To develop my interests to grow as a as a researcher for sure but to also be able to nurture other aspects of my life. I think it's really really important often overlooked. But i i think you made a really good point a of you know how how much intent you had while you were looking of finding out. These are sometimes difficult points to identify in the in the pi. With whom you're gonna be working with sold so it's great sarah. We're getting to the end now. The thing is the thing. Well i think the the great thing is that you already. You're already said a on on the air that if anyone wanted mentorship from you that he could reach out to you right so somehow the conversation is not over with the end of the interview But we're i want what i wanted to come now to the part where you can just quickly share You know how people can reach you. where can they find designs that sell and And you know on on social media where you are and where they can poke you and then then pick your brain or whatever they want to ask okay. So we have a website which essentially contains all the information including our socials Which is designed sell with a c. So it is a pun dossier designs that sell dot a. And on there you can reach out via. We have a contact box. We also have booking online for three thirty minute consultations. So if anyone's looking for any scientific illustrations any branding related to scientific communication content creation and graphics. We do it all so you can all that information on our websites and we also are on social at twitter instagram and lincoln and all of those links i sat are on the website as well And you can reach me by up that contact for because if you title it. Hi sarah that it will be for the to me. Great sarah now just before saying our goodbyes. Did you have the last word you know thinking of what you've experienced up till today maybe thinking of People you've seen around you in grad school may be struggling may be anxious may be also people now with this whole coffee situation being stuck at home. Maybe not being able to push their project forward. You have some last words of inspiration. I asked i do have some words of west of My my recent favorite is just because you're not as knowledgeable as somebody else at the table does not mean that you're not as capable knowledge and ability are two separate things and getting those mixed up can make you yourself so make sure that you separate those and that you understand your capability is not your knowledge and your knowledge is not your capability ability and knowledge are definitely not the same and It sounds very you know very simple but if you think about it and if you think of the times where you looked at someone oh my god. This person's no so much. She's much better than it is a pernicious pattern of thought so for sure. I really really like to show that in the end. So thank you so much for having an above beach. See it's been really really great. Pleasure thank you. It's amazing and thank you for what you do. I think it's great to advocate for. Phd's in our lives and what we're going through. Well it's it's my pleasure and for me. It's a passion project like like masih. And that's it for this week's episode of papa peachy if you like these interview go to the show notes page at papa. Peachy dot com for slash. One knows heaven where you can find. Sarah's twitter handle and thank her directly for all she shared during our conversation and remember to subscribe on your device to never lose another episode iv prepared convenient followings for ios and android at pop up dot com for slash subscribe. Thanks for listening. Thanks for sharing and see you next week. Thanks for listening to another episode of the papa. Peach de podcast head over to papa. Ph d dot com for show notes in for more food for thought about non-academic post grad careers always be happy to share inspiring stories new ideas and useful resources. Here on the podcast. So make sure you subscribe on itunes or wherever you get your podcasts to always keep up with the discussion and to hear from our latest guests.

Sarah kingston sarah academia halifax david mendez huchon sarah intercession the journal of immunotherapy cher cher university of wealth dalhousie in queens university hiawassee mike arnie Cancer trials group cancer university of which indigo girls group Agwu kingston lake
Throw the first Stone(wall) Revisited (ep 157)

Your Brain on Facts

37:24 min | 3 months ago

Throw the first Stone(wall) Revisited (ep 157)

"Launching today on our t. Public store which you can reach through your brain on facts dot com slash merch is indisputably the single greatest piece of merch ever made by anyone ever of all time. It's a design based on one of the more memorable facts from the show sicilian qasim marzio or maggot cheese. I promise the cuteness of the shirt is inversely proportionate to the grossness of the cheese. I want to actually make a series of these same. Maybe four. But i don't know what other facts to do so i need you to tell me your favorite or most unforgettable fact that you've learned from your brain on facts you can do that on social media at facebook and instagram. Your brain on facts. Twitter brain on facts pot or email me moxie at your brain on facts dot com or you can talk about it in our facebook group or sub reddit which you can reach through your brain on facts dot com slash social. If you do nothing else. I ever say. Please check out this t shirt. Have you ever wondered what goes through. A comedians mind when they're up on stage and tele joke. That just doesn't work whether you're an aspiring comedian or a hard core comedy nerd the art of bombing. Podcast has something for everyone from useful. Comedy insight to entertaining stories of bombing and failure told by the comedians that lived through them like louie anderson. Andy erickson chat daniels dusty sleigh and more join comedian booklets junior as he sits down with comedians to discuss what can be learned from those ugly shows on the road. New episodes every tuesday on your podcast player of choice or at art of bombing pot dot com the bombing ride go with before the fall. Except in atlanta. They do it in october. Two years ago on the fiftieth anniversary of the stonewall riots just in time for pride month new york city officials announced a monument would be erected to honour pioneering lgbtq activists sylvia rivera and. Marsha p johnson. Their names come up in the news a lot. This time of year but who were rivera and johnson and what happened at the stonewall inn in nineteen sixty nine that was big enough to be labeled the stonewall rebellion. Do we even know what really happened. My name's moxy. And this is your brain on facts. In the early hours of june twenty eighth nineteen sixty nine new york city police raided the greenwich village. Gay club called the stonewall inn. Let me set the scene for you. Gay clubs were much more than a place to get drunk or look for love in the nineteen sixties and frankly all the decades leading up to it. They were not exactly accepting of lgbt people. Being queer wasn't only societally unacceptable. It was against the law same sex relations between consenting adults or illegal in new york city in nineteen eighty and you could be arrested on the street for not wearing at least three articles of gender appropriate clothing now out on a limb here and say that men in skirts found themselves on the receiving end of that one a lot more often than women and slacks did understandably. Lgbt people flocked to gay bars and clubs refuges where they could socialize and more importantly be themselves openly. You still weren't safe there though. The new york city state liquor. Authority penalized and shutdown. Gay bars arguing. That the mir gathering of more than three homosexuals was technically disorderly. These regulations were overturned in nineteen sixty six thanks to the efforts of strident activists but things as simple as holding hands with someone of the same gender was still illegal so police harassment of gay bars continued. There was another player. In the game the mafia the mob saw profit to be had in catering to the displaced and disenfranchised gay clientele by the mid nineteen sixties. The genovese crime family controlled most of the gay bars in the village in nineteen sixty six. They purchased the stonewall inn which had been a bog standard bar and restaurant renovated it on the cheap and reopened it as a gay bar. Stonewall inn was registered as a private bottle bar which did not require a liquor licence because patrons were supposed to bring their own liquor club attendees had to sign their names in a book to maintain the club's membership facade. Police initially left the stonewall inn alone by dint of regular bribes from the jennifer easies patrons benefited by the fact that the police hassling the owners but it also meant that the owners could run the club as they saw fit which meant as cheaply as possible. The club lacked a fire exit. There was no running water behind the bar to wash the glasses. Though there was plenty of water in the drinks themselves and the less said about the bathrooms the better to further maximize profits. The mafia reportedly blackmailed the club's wealthier patrons who needed to keep their sexuality is nonetheless stonewall. An quickly became an important greenwich village. Institution it welcomed drag queens and people who at the time identify themselves as transvestites who were often ostracized from other gay bars. It was a haven for many runaways and homeless gay youth who panhandle or shoplifted to pay the cover charge rates were still effective life but corrupt cops would tip off the mob owned bars before the raid so the owners could stash the alcohol selling without a license not to mention any other illegal activities. The nypd had actually stormed the stonewall in just days before the riot inducing raid when police raided stonewall inn on the morning of june twenty eighth it came as a surprise. The bar hadn't been tipped off this time armed with a warrant. Police officers entered the club. Roughed up the patrons and finding illegal liquor arrested thirteen people including employees and people caught violating the states gender appropriate clothing statute female officers would take patrons into the bathroom to make sure their genitalia match their outfit. So you've been shunned by your family and society you've been told that who you are on the inside and who you love is wrong. You finally find somewhere where you can be with people who understand you even if it is a filthy dive and then this happens. Fed up with constant police harassment and social discrimination angry patrons and neighbors became increasingly agitated as the events unfolded and people were aggressively manhandled at one point a male officer hit by racial lesbian drag king stormy very over the head as he forced her into the wagon. What are you standing there for. Do something she yelled to the crowd though she hardly needed to detailed research after the riots found that stormy dila very not only shouted to the crowd but had also punched. The cop was manhandling. Her in two thousand eight when delivery was asked why she didn't come forward and take credit for her actions she answered because it was never anybody's business popular history tells us that marsha p johnson was one of the first. If not the first person to throw something that night a few bricks and bottles later and a full blown riot erupted the police. A few prisoners and a village voice writer had to barricade themselves in the bar which the crowd then attempted to burn down. The riott squad was able to get the people out of the building and the fire department. Douse the flames. but they couldn't squelch. The heat protests sometimes involving thousands of people would continue for five more days in two thousand sixteen president barack obama designated the site of the riots stonewall inn christopher park and the surrounding streets and sidewalks a national monument in recognition of the area's contribution to gay and human rights which are of course the same thing there's already a monument the stone wall uprising in the park across the street from the bar but the four figures to male and two female are all painted white obfuscating the enormous contribution of trans women or people of color like johnson and rivera. Who were in the fan of the gay rights movement of all the things marsha p johnson was known for she was probably best known for being herself and fearing no judgment for dressing and living as a woman even as she struggled to survive on the streets of new york or new jersey in nineteen. Forty five as michael's marsha began dressing in girls clothes as a child which did not go over at all. Well in their conservative christian family after high school marcia moved to greenwich village and legally changed her name. If you ask her what the piece stood for she would say pay it no mind that was also what she said the people who began to pry into her personal business which by the way it is never okay to do unless you work in a doctor's office. There's really no legitimate reason to ask someone you just met about their genitalia. In new york marsha struggled to make ends meet often ending up homeless and supporting herself as a sex worker. She also had to contend with mental health issues and constant police harassment. Still she found joy a drag queen amidst the nightlife of christopher street. Marsha scoured thrift shops to make all your own costumes and quickly became a prominent fixture in the lgbtq community as a drag mother helping homeless and struggling lgbtq youth. She even toured internationally with the hot peaches drag theater company but she always came back to the village. Marsha was an eccentric known for her flamboyant hats and jewelry which ensured she stood out in public. Her sense of style and pronounced self assuredness even caught the eye of andy warhol who included her in his ladies and gentlemen photo series. It was in the drag community that johnson i met sylvia rivera born ray rivera in nineteen fifty one. Sylvia lived most of her life in or near new york city. She was abandoned by her father early. In life and became an orphan at three years old. When her mother died of suicide sylvia was then raised by her venezuelan grandmother who disapproved her effeminate behaviour. After the grandmother caught sylvia wearing makeup in fourth grade she kicked sylvia. Out of the house. I reiterate in fourth grade sylvia was eleven years old and homeless also inevitably. She had to support herself through sex work. Things began to look for her when she was taken in by the local community of drag queens who gave her the name sylvia despite all of her own hardships. Sylvia was always more concerned with the welfare of others. Her activism began during the civil rights movement and continued through vietnam war protests and second wave feminism as someone who contended with systemic poverty drug addiction and racism sylvia used her voice for unity sharing her stories pain and struggles to show people in her community that they were not alone. She amplified the voices of the most vulnerable members of the gay community homeless youth. Gay inmates in prison and transgender people. Sylvia and marsha founded the street transvestite action revolutionaries or star star was a radical political collective but also provided housing and support homeless queer youth and sex workers. Rivera and johnson were the mothers of the household star is considered by many to be a groundbreaking organization in the queer liberation movement and a model for others to come rivera. Got the idea for star during a near long sit in to protest the cancellation of dances. That had been planned by the christopher street liberation day committee the organizers of the first gay pride parade these dances were meant to be fundraisers for legal medical and housing needs in. The gay community star was for the street. Gay people the street homeless people and anybody that needed help at that time. Sylvia's said in an interview. Marsh and i'd always sneaked people into our hotel rooms. Marsh and i decided to get a building. We were trying to get away from the mafia's control at the bars. Together with the gay liberation front star hosted a fundraising dance to raise enough money to purchase the star house. A four bedroom apartment in a rundown building in the east village lacking electricity or heat. Rivera and johnson worked hard to get star house into shape and keep their kids that sheltered. They kept star house alive the same way. They kept themselves alive through sex work but they were only able to keep it open for about a year. Sex work was as it is now a dangerous profession especially in nineteen seventies new york during one encounter. Marsha was shot. The bullet was so close to her spine. She would have been paralyzed if doctors tried to remove it. She spent the rest of her life suffering from intense pain. Thanks to that. Bullet star itself would only officially continue for two more years but sylvia and marsha never gave up the fight they fought for the sexual orientation nondiscrimination act to stop discrimination in employment housing public accommodations education credit and the exercise of civil rights on the basis of sexual orientation bona smacked on the topic of credit and discrimination. I got this fact directly from a banker earlier this week. The last known incident of a woman having to get a man to cosign a bank product with her because she was a woman occurred in. I'm going to give you second. Guess what year. Nineteen eighty six. A woman trying to get a business loan had to have her seventeen year. Old son as a cosigner. Please point that out to anyone who says they. Don't need feminism. Because otherwise that stuff would still be happening. The sexual orientation nondiscrimination act was defeated in nineteen seventy one eighty three and ninety three ultimately finally passing in two thousand and two thirty one years after it was first introduced. Their next big action was to join other activists in the campaign for intro. Four seventy five. A municipal bill which gay activists alliance helped introduce and which sought protections against sexual orientation discrimination many queer and trans people criticized g. a. for ignoring protection for trans individuals which they believed was an initial move to make the bill more palatable to waspy lawmakers trans exclusion within the queer community became a major issue when the gender non conforming people and drag queens had to go to the back of the nineteen seventy-three christopher street liberation day parade as well as being excluded from speaking on stage rivera and fellow drag queen. Lee brewster storm the stage. During a feminist activists speech rivera shouted you go to bars because of what drag queens did for you and these. Ms tell us to stop being ourselves. Criticized other gay liberation activists their assimilationist agenda and led a chant of gay power. The feminists speaker took the mic again. Decrying drag as misogynistic and demeaning after the rally rivera chose to leave the movement for years. Moving upstate we died in nineteen seventy-three the fourth anniversary of stonewall she wrote in queens in exile the forgotten ones. That's when we were told. We were a threat and an embarrassment to women because lesbians felt offended by our attire us wearing makeup it came down to a brutal battle on the stage that year at washington square park between me and people i considered my comrades and friends but the war doesn't end just because you leave and star was resurrected in two thousand one under the new name street transgender action revolutionaries in answer to the two thousand murder of amanda milan. A trans woman who was by all accounts minding her own business waiting for a cab. Sylvia continued her work in the fight to advance the transgender civil rights. Bill in new york city and state and to fight for self-determination for all gender nonconformists until her death from liver cancer in two thousand and two marcia had died ten years earlier in nineteen ninety-two her body had been found in the hudson river off the west village pierce. She was forty six years old. How she got there though is a mystery which may never be answered to the satisfaction of those who loved her. She cared about the community and making a change former village voice columnist and she wasn't a party girl. She was in bars a lot but that was part of her. Being part of the community friends say johnson was acting normally when they last saw her around greenwich village. Two days before her body was found when her body was found. The police quickly ruled the death. A suicide something that outraged many of those who knew her and said she would never have taken her own life. Many point to the fact that johnson was found with a bruise on the back of her head as evidence that she might have been attacked but a former medical examiner concluded. That the discoloration could have come from the body decomposing in water as the aids. Epidemic picked up steam johnson who was hiv positive. The came a prominent activist with the aids coalition protesting the high cost of drugs. That help treat the disease. Which at the time was called gay related immune deficiency and often referred to as gay cancer. Those who claim marsha took her own life. Use her medical history as a basis for their argument that the pain from the bullet in her back had become so unbearable and her hiv diagnosis so depressing randy. Wicker johnson's roommate at the time of her death and fellow activist recalled seeing where her body had been placed after it was pulled from the river as she laid there. Her blood soaked into the pavement. There was marshes blood in everything were her body had lain on the asphalt. It was there a makeshift memorial sprung up to johnson. Flowers dotting the ground. Her body was cremated and the ashes were spread in the hudson river off the christopher street pier for months afterwards activists pushed for a more thorough investigation. Five months after her body was found. The outpouring reached a fever. Pitch among the voices. was tom. duane then a city council member and later the first openly gay new york state senator with hiv. Who demanded justice for johnson meeting with investigators in an effort to convince them to reopen the case. Enough deserve the most exhaustive investigation twain said in an interview adding that the case the case was also unusual because it was a very rapid determination. We were strong in our position that there needed to be more investigative work. Because even if marsha was not world famous she was also important to the lgbtq community and the downtown community. It would be twenty years before police reopen. Johnson's death for a second look in twenty twelve in the intervening years. Speculation had run rampant. The uncertainty fueling wild conjecture. Maybe johnson was killed in a mafia hit. Some said others wondered if she slipped between the boards of the then dilapidated peer while fleeing from an assault because witnesses claim. She was being harassed. The night she disappeared ultimately her death was changed from suicide to undetermined after the public pressure mounted on the authorities but the new york police department maintains there is not enough evidence to indicate foul play in the case which they closed again in twenty thirteen. Nypd detectives conducted thorough and exhaustive investigation into this cold case. A police spokesperson said in a statement. The nypd cold case squad looked into the case in twenty twelve. The cause of death was changed from cause of death. Drowning manner of death suicide to cause of death drowning manner of death undetermined. The case is now closed but for marshes friends. That's not good enough. They continue to press for more to be done. Those who knew. Marcia johnson remember her determination. She was the rosa parks of the lgbtq movement transgender. Maria lopez said. I am carrying on the legacy started by two homeless trans people. It is a group of trans activists who do the work answer. The phones in a grassroots way. We help those in hospitals and imprisons lopez said of star today. Sylvia and marsha couldn't have envisioned the world we live in today and star cannot die in the years since johnson's death. New york city has undergone drastic changes. The grittiness of greenwich village has been replaced with posh restaurants expensive bars and high rise apartments the pier. Where johnson's body was laid out has been repaired. Gay bars can operate without fear of legal reprisal marsha left behind a legacy that people could be themselves said the bartender who was at the stonewall inn during the riots. You see it now drag queens that are performing in clubs just jumping cavs taking trains. But she was the beginning. We interrupt who are scheduled program with this breaking announcement over artist. moxie lellouche is offering ten small businesses. A free voice over no cost involved even if you get background music on it. This can be a phone menu and explainer video a youtube video. A social media ad almost anything under the umbrella of corporate voiceover. All it will cost your business a few minutes of time to leave a testimonial review or endorsement in places like google pages and linked in email contact at moxie lellouche dot com to order your free voice over today. Contact at moxie. Lellouche dot com. We now return you to the rest of the ad break. Have you gotten your copy of the game. Love letter from zemun games yet. My husband and i have played it at least five times in the last week. Probably gonna play it again tonight. It's a fun card strategy game where you're trying to get your letter of intent to the princess and you have to carefully choose who you're going to have help you with that task. An average game lasts about twenty minutes. So it's real easy to squeeze one in. I've been enjoying it particularly because the small number of cards means. I have a realistic chance of actually figuring out what my husband is holding. I don't get that in a lot of card based games. it comes in beautiful red velvet bag. And don't you just love little velvet bags small enough to take with you anywhere marked for children ten and up but you know i'd let her really clever play. Plus love letter costs less than to drive through the meals. You can get your copy of love letter from zemun games dot com your local target or and i underscore this one. Their local games store brick and mortar. Mom-and-pop shop you really need to have a copy of love letter from seamen games. You're on your brain on facts. I may not have all the answers but if your question is how can i find a sponsor for my small podcast. I do have the only answer. You need pod. corn pod. Corn is a marketplace that connects podcasters and businesses many of them small businesses to create ad campaigns. That work for both parties. This is not a situation where you're going to have to have twenty five thousand downloads per episode. Before anyone will even look at you. Popcorn is easy to use free to set up you retain all the rights to your podcast and everything else and you get to tailor the ad campaign in a way that works for you and the sponsor whether it's a host read at or an interview you can get started today by going to pod corn dot com. It's like popcorn but for podcasts. Pod corn dot com. That's the narrative. We hear every june now. Gay rights movement was born in one thousand nine hundred sixty nine. A beloved gay bar called the stonewall in the stonewall right began a drag queen through brick and a police officer or a window. the gay community was emotionally reeling. From the death of judy garland. The riot culminated. Iraq had style kick line of drag queens facing off against the riott. Cops okay. Those last two bullet points aren't as common but they're definitely circulating. Let's break this history down point by point. Gay rights movement was born in nineteen sixty nine a beloved No that's when the straight people started to notice it even before stonewall there was the daughters of politis a lesbian civil and political rights organization formed in san francisco in nineteen fifty five as a social alternative to gay bars before that there was the mattachine society formed in nineteen fifty cut. Try to imagine wanting to be out in nineteen fifty. And when we broaden our scope as we should always do we find the movement actually dates back at least to eighteen. Ninety seven in berlin with the founding of the first gay rights group by magnus hirschfeld stonewall wasn't the genesis but it was certainly an accelerate. The gay liberation front was born out of the ashes of stonewall metaphorical ashes. Of course it wasn't accelerate but was it a riot and uprising a rebellion or what. The violence of the first night led to five more nights of more organized demonstrations with a more optimistic feel including chanting and dancing in the streets. The stonewall uprising didn't start the gay rights movement but it was a galvanizing moment for lgbtq political activism leading to the formation of numerous gay rights organizations including the gay liberation front human rights campaign glad gay and lesbian alliance against defamation and p flag parents friends and family of lesbians and gays eddie. Beloved gay bar called the stonewall inn You heard me described the stonewall and at the top so you already know. It wasn't exactly cheers for the flamboyant set in a recent documentary. Those who were there that night describe it as a dump a hell hole. Dirty rundown a sleazy mafia bar in there were a lot nicer gay bars in the area. Stonewall riots began when a drag queen three brick and a police officer or window by their own accounts. It wasn't the two people. Most commonly credited marsha p johnson or sylvia rivera. Johnson herself later said that the riot was already in full swing when she arrived. I was in town. I didn't get downtown to have to a caucus when i got downtown. Plays with already on buying a raid already. Similarly rivera delivered a speech in two thousand and one clarifying i have been given the credit for throwing the first molotov cocktail by many historians but i always liked to correct it. I through the second one. According to witnesses there was a gender non conforming person who touched off the big to do. She was very butch she was tough and the police were being rough with her and she was really fighting back. Some people say that person was stormy della. very cheap who sometimes took credit for it. And sometimes didn't there's been no conclusive proof one way or the other who exactly that. Which woman was something else we have. No actual evidence of what exactly was thrown. Some people say it was a shot glass which makes sense in the context of a bar and also let you call it. The shot glass heard round the world if it was a brick. Where did they get it. Cities may be made of bricks. But they're rarely remaining around wild. Maybe there was a construction site nearby. People say that is certainly possible. But it's more likely that someone left the scene to find a brick after the action was underway. If someone did leave a regular night at the bar looking for a brick is that heroic or you know worrisome. Hey jamie calling it. A night already know. Just going out to find brick. You'd have questions. Stones may have been used in the initial fractious if there were any loose cobblestones in the nearby tree pits though the gay community was emotionally reeling. From the death of judy garland. You're killing me smalls. please tell me that. None of my brainiacs belief that the troubled singer slash actress described a time magazine review as elvis for homosexuals died of a drug overdose on the twenty seventh of june nineteen sixty nine. Stonewall started the following night many. Lgbt people were fans of garland as were many street people. She was one of the biggest stars of our lifetime. Her funeral was mentioned in one. Count them one newspaper account of the uprising from decidedly right wing source. Nineteen ninety seven book the gay metropolis. By charles kaiser is one of the culprits in the propagation of this. I don't even want to call it. A myth no one will ever know for sure. Which was the most important reason for what happened next. The freshness in their minds of judy garland's funeral. Or the example of all the previous rebellions of the sixties the civil rights revolution the sexual revolution and the psychedelic revolution. Each of which had punctured gaping holes in crumbling traditions of passivity puritanism and bigotry. The second one chuck. It was the second one. This misbelief keeps popping up including in the twenty fifteen movie stonewall which should not be relied on for historical accuracy authors and journalists really need to get correlation doesn't equal causation tattooed on their forearm before they can get paid for their first story to suggest that a celebrity's death is more likely to be the cause of insurrection rather than generations of repression and violence is trivializing condescending and demeaning not to mention an affront to logic. The riot culminated in a rock style. Kick line of drag queens facing off against the riott cops now. This one is true. The stonewall uprising lasted for days with the violence giving way to more organized protests including unbelievably a kick line. No there was not a kick line at stone. There are many clients stonewall. And i'll be glad to give you the lyrics. We are the girls we wear a hair in curls. We don't wear underwear to show our pubic care. John to the tune of how duty theme. It's howdy doody time you're right. It is so what are we left with what was thrown and who threw it and does it really matter not really. The conflicting accounts from witnesses dismissive media coverage and fifty years of articles. Books and documentaries have led to significant. Lgbtq infighting over ownership of the rebellion different factions. Want it to be someone like them. A butch lesbian a drag queen trans woman a gay man. A person of color. Someone who has their same adjectives. Stonewall has become in the words of preeminent v. v q historian susan stryker an arena in which different identity groups go at each other often vehemently making historical claims that are ultimately objectively unverifiable to wage contemporary struggles and this squabbling obscures the fundamental importance of stonewall. And that's where we run out of ideas at least for today the stonewall rebellion or riot or uprising. Whatever you call. It was crucial precisely because we can't say it was one lone person fighting back against the police violence. The real lesson to take away. Is that a racially diverse. Group of st queens drag kings gay men and more rose up against the stanic persecution unlike earlier riots. Movements stonewall gained world historical significance because it was the first time a diverse group of lgbtq people fought back together. thanks to our guest quote. Readerswe david from papa peachy rupert hughes tyler donors th ruined heroes and being this person thandi from my handle. Is jonathan blade. Remember you can always find links to the source material as well as the script for the show at your brain on facts dot com. Thanks for spending part of your day with me. Stay safe and to all my friends who call themselves gay by lesbian. Queer trans non-conforming non binary. Whatever who i am proud to say are too numerous in my life to name here. I see you. And i love you. David from papa peachy.

stonewall inn johnson marsha sylvia rivera sylvia rivera new york city marsha p johnson Sylvia Marsha qasim marzio Andy erickson Marsha p johnson dila stonewall inn christopher park ray rivera new york new york police department louie anderson christopher street liberation
Tools for your PhD Journey  My Path

Papa Phd Podcast

18:37 min | 1 year ago

Tools for your PhD Journey My Path

"Welcome to pop up each with David. Mendez the podcast where we explore careers in life after Grad school with guests who have walked road less traveled and have unique stories to tell about how they made their place in a world of constantly evolving rules. Get ready to go off the beaten path and hop on for an exciting new episode of the PhD. Hi everyone today. I'm bringing you a different episode. Did I'll be talking about my path. What brought me here to what I did today and to. The Papa pitched the adventure here. Peach is literally an adventure. It's an exploration a journey into the unknown and some of the greatest lessons and memories of Grad School. That will bring with you throughout your life are going to be the obstacles you found and surpassed along the way and this is one of the most important messages that I'd like to share during this episode. What I'm going to talk about throughout is going to be what my career path has been like until today and what lessons I learned going through my PhD. What worked for me. And what didn't work for me and if you stick around until the end of the IV prepared for you a toolkit where I summarize the most important lessons I've learned a set of strategies that will help you go through your degree smoothly and be prepared for your transition into the non-academic job space or into whatever comes after your degree. I also try and share advice on how to be very intentional from day one in planning ahead and preparing your professional life no matter what it ends up being again I will share linked to the toolkit at the end of the episode. So stay with me now to talk about my story. Eventually you'll see that I got stumped along the way they hit some roadblocks but I wasn't alone from all of those obstacles in all of those difficulties plus now having interviewed thirty. Plus guests on the Papa Peachy podcast. I have also tried to collect some of the best advice that they have shared on the show and to distill it into this document that I'll be sharing at the end of the episode so my academic path started in Portugal. Coming out of high school. I had to possible avenues to things I liked and was good at and these were languages and natural sciences so eventually. I followed the scientific path and did a bachelor's in microbiology genetics. At the University of Lisbon. After my bachelor's I stuck around the lab where I had done my final project for a couple of years teeing in different training programs and doing research in kind of a post back experience. Eventually I had the opportunity of taking part in a program promoted by infrared the drug and medicine agency in Portugal. At the time generic drugs were being introduced in Portugal. And I had the privilege of being part of a small team of graduates who were trained and sent out to medical centers around the country to explain what generic drugs were to the medical community and to dispel any worries or doubts. They had about the quality and safety of these products. He was a very formative year. We were trained on public. Speaking on how to present the data on how to discuss objections. All skills that really served me later on and it was my first professional experience out of the lab. After one year as an informed representative the government changed and the program was closed after that through connections that I had made in this position. I had the privilege of being invited to give lab glasses at a private university in Lisbon. The school that was specifically offering training for people who wanted to have technical careers in the health domain again. This was a great experience. I really really enjoyed teaching. But what happened? Was that looking at the professors. I started thinking that I'd really like to teach at that level. And what was the requirement to teach at that level well it was to hold a PhD so five years. After having finished my Undergrad degree I decided to embark on the the adventure. I interviewed in two programs and I was accepted in the B. B. Program offered by the Center for neuroscience and cell biology at the University of Coimbra Portugal a program with a strong neuroscience component. We were twelve newly minted. Phd students in the two thousand and three cohort. There was a first year of seminars. Full year doing seminars on different subjects with researchers from around the world and then after this first year we were told. Well now you have to choose where you going to do your research. I wanted to work in cell biology development and I ended up visiting a lab at King's College in London elaborate the NBL in Heidelberg and two labs at McGill University here in Montreal. So you kind of know where. The story goes. I chose to come to Montreal to the Montreal. Neurological Institute to work on development and cell biology in the factory pavilion looking at signaling and cell differentiation. In the different cell. Lineages of the sensory tissue. Now if you are at this moment in the process of looking at P. H. D.'s. At labs some advice that I can share right away is when deciding. Try to assess the fit of the lab or of the institution culture to you. How well you bring to fit into the organization and even into the research group that you're going to be part of that's very important because this is going to be your family for four five six seven years depending on where you're doing your PhD also trying to assess and the best way to do. This is to talk with alumni. How well students are mentored managed at the level of the lab but again also at the level of the institution. What structures are there? How Happy Alumni feel with the experience they had going through Grad School in that setting. Also if you're able to reach out to alumni of the lab that you're looking at trying to see where they are professionally. This is important for two reasons where they are in academia is important. What type of research? They're doing. What type of success they had after leaving the lab and finishing but they may no longer be Naqady Mia and one of the things that's very important is to learn what different things people who come out of academia end up doing so very important to reach out to alumni it can bring you a host of different information and different insights. That are going to be really really useful in your career exploration. So I chose McGill and I was visiting research student at the from two thousand four to two thousand nine when I turned in my thesis McGill and the experience of being at him and I was a great one in terms of what was organized for the Students Journal Clubs Opportunities to present your data to other groups in the institutes and also. The student body was really really fun. There was a lot of intramural. Sports meet UPS happening so it was a really great environment. I did a rough experience eventually and mostly because I went into the experience a little bit unprepared and one of the main things is that I was coming as a visiting research student and had a scholarship from Portugal which was for years that was it. There was no way to extend it and as a visiting research student. I wasn't eligible to get funding there so that was one of the roadblocks that I hit later on but I did hit roadblocks in my research the first projects that we decided I would work on. Didn't work out as expected which ended up losing me one year. Almost two years of time getting data that was trashed so two years to start. Something new was not a lot and in my case it had to do with having gene targeted mice that addressed my particular question and the model that we had in the end was not perfect. Which means that. I ended up turning in my thesis without any published articles. The other consequence was I was not going to be a professor after all so once I had hit these roadblocks. I knew that I was going to go the non-academic path before telling you how I went about doing that. And what happened after? I am going to say that six years after my defense which was twenty ten so in two thousand sixteen I got an email from development the journal saying that I was author on this paper and that they needed to register etc etc. I reached out to my Pi. Who told me there was no mistake. The paper stemming from my findings was submitted and was going to be published. This was an emotional moment for me even six years down the road. It was a confirmation that the work that I did the hypothesis that I posited and defended was valid and enough so to be published on a high-ranking journal it was a good moment and it was a moment to get back in touch with my supervisor and share my emotions at the moment in my happiness at that happening. I'm so grateful that he chose to surprise me like that. So one point here is obstacles and difficulties are part of life. They teach you things they teach things about yourself and they make you grow so she find it in yourself to be able to go back and show gratitude to people who were there and who at a certain time you may have blamed for this or that difficulty or bad situation in your life. You'll see that it's a very enriching exercise and it will make you grow even more now. What came after so between turning in my thesis and defending I started getting my network for opportunities and attended career. Fairs those types of things that my institute and McGill University were offering. I started discussing enterpreneurial projects around science communication with like minded colleagues and eventually I found a job as a science tutor in a distance education program. In the meantime as I was doing that I found out about a medical writing agency that was actively hiring McGill graduates and I had contacts in this company. People who were coming from the same institute. I had done my research at so I reached out. Learned about what medical writing is and eventually one of my ex-colleagues got my CV TO HR. And then got I interview than a second and then I landed my first Post Beach de fulltime job. This was my first experience in North American corporate culture. Let's say he was very interesting and very formative. Working at this company was a great school for me. They had a really strong on boarding system. There was continuous training throughout the almost five years that I was there. Training on writing on different aspects of the job there were bus abilities of career development within the company which again was great and also one thing that was interesting was that there was a possibility of moving laterally within the company. So you could start as a medical writer and most everyone did and become a medical editor or eventually if project management was your thing you could start as a medical writer and become a project manager so the views of this company taught me a lot and especially. I really appreciate how much effort was put into training us because they were actively hiring these they had this whole system of getting them in and through the on boarding system that they had teaching them. The style of writing there was best suited for the type of content produced. So they thought you tone down your academic speak and to write for Public. That mostly was composed of sales forces in Pharma companies. So this would be. In the context of drug launches or new drug indications it was writing and preparing materials to teach representatives to know the product to know the treatment landscape to know some drug economics and also. There was a part that I enjoyed most which was more of the physical pathology of the disease the whole biology behind it so again almost five years where. I learned a lot but eventually I had an opportunity to put one of my passions to use and it was my passion for languages. Someone I knew was a project manager at a company who dealt in continuing medical education and they needed a translator so I left the company and I went out to work on my own translating different continuing medical education materials. I really really enjoyed the medical science translation space and working in that domain. And eventually I went on to get a certificate in translation again at McGill University the School of continuing studies because I wanted to learn about the theory behind translation and I took courses in linguistics terminology competitive stylistics translation technology. The cool thing also of this certificate was that at the end there was a practicum where if selected we were asked to translate an actual article. That was going to be published in Higher Education magazine from English to French now as a medical translator. A lot of what I do has to do with translating projects in Pharma Medical Devices or continuing medical education as I mentioned but also some medical writing in some audio in video transcription now because I'm sort of a solo per neuro freelancer. I'm mostly working on my own and there's pros and cons to that whenever you exploring careers think of your personality and what you think works best for you in my case where. I really like about the freelance life is I manage my time. I choose the projects I work on an in my particular case I can really be very available for my children now about the cons. Well the cons are the highs and lows in contracts for sure when you're freelancer. Sometimes there are lulls sometimes and you need to learn to deal with that and to plan manage accordingly the other con- is client on over some clients. Come and go some stick around again. It's something that just happens and that you need to be ready to deal with so this is what I do now mostly professionally but the latest thing that I have done as a project has been to start Apache to start the podcast and here on the podcast. I shook his people who have carved their own career path after their PhD. Master's or post DOC and have them share their academic path the winning habits of strategies that help them throughout and how they nurtured specific sets of interest that they ended up pivoting into or merging into their academic career and this is my objective bringing new people in news stories every week. So far I've had thirty five guests on the show who have come. From neuroscience education some are still doing their hd somewhere in cancer research area studies so a lot of different domains and profiles and they now working biotech start-ups some are researchers. Who Do a lot of outreach? Some do consulting some are in global health farmer. So I'm really trying to showcase the most diverse group of people possible to share with you. That almost anything is possible. After your degree in terms of developing your career. It really depends on your personality. Your values your interests coming out of the degree. You own a set of skills that will allow you to lead any project you set your mind to. That's the message I want to share with you every week and this is this is my journey. This is where I am today. I'm doing all this work in linguistics services and now I have this new passion which is bringing people on the show who have different careers. Different career paths different insights. Different lessons that they learned in their journey and this year. I'm going to bring a different type of episode also which I'm now working hard to prepare. Which is going to be themed episodes episodes with specialists in which we're going to talk about specific aspects of the graduate school experience beat mental health skills development nutrition extracurricular life. I'm really working hard to bring you guests that are going to be able to share advice focusing on specific questions. I'm still working on setting this up but I'll keep you posted. I had mentioned I was going to share resource with you at the end of the episode. A toolkit based on the lessons my PhD and the puppet interviews taught me so here. It is if you're thinking of starting a Beach D. or if you're in a PhD right now or finishing and thinking about what comes next and you need some pointers go to Papa pitchy dot com Ford Slash PhD tools and download tools for your PhD journey strategies to keep balance within and without. I'll be happy to share this with every one of you hoping that it will help you in your journey and before the end of the episode. I really want to thank you for being a listener. It's really really really appreciated seeing all the downloads and seeing that people around the world the listening you can't imagine how happy it makes me and how good it makes me feel about having started this project. So thank you very much and if you want to help podcast there are two simple things you can do number one. Is Sharon episode that you really like with a friend or we the colleague? That's a great way to help and to spread the word number two. If you're on an APP that allows rating or commenting to that leave a star rating and leave a comment. That will help people out there. Find the podcast and joined the adventure and it also gives me a chance to open a dialogue with all of you which I'd really enjoy so thank you again. Happy Listening and see you next week. Thanks for listening to another episode of the Papa. Phd PODCAST head over to Papa. Pete's DOT COM for show notes in for more food for thought about non-academic Post Grad careers. I'll always be happy to share inspiring stories new ideas and useful resources here on the PODCAST. So make sure you subscribe on Itunes or wherever you get your podcasts to always keep up with the discussion and to hear from our latest guests.

McGill University Grad school Portugal Montreal professor representative project manager medical writer University of Lisbon Mendez David Lisbon Portugal Pharma Medical Devices McGill P. H. D. Post Beach Neurological Institute University of Coimbra Portugal Naqady Mia
Going From Research to Business Development With Fabrice Marquet

Papa Phd Podcast

56:57 min | 9 months ago

Going From Research to Business Development With Fabrice Marquet

"Hi and happy new year in this first episode of twenty twenty one. I bring you a story humane part. No the story of changing countries and cultures and finding new horizons for yourself in the process in my guess case leading to his transition from basic research into business development. I used to be like that. I felt like i was describing what i was doing. If i was not extensive about the technique and the material methods and blah blah blah like we do in conference and so forth. I was not legitimate. Nobody gives a crap. I mean if you want to sell something drove. The science will sound to the crazy to most people that i don't give a crap about the science. I mean people lose this smartphone every day. They don't have a clue of works. The only care about is the value that it brings to them. So if you cannot explain to me your what your what. Your product is going to add society in two sentences without talking about science. You don't have a business. Welcome to pop up each with david. Mendez the podcast where we explore careers in life after grad school with guests who have walked the road less traveled and have unique stories to tell about how they made their place in the world of constantly evolving rules. Get ready to go off the beaten path and hop on for an exciting new episode of papa phd. Welcome to another episode of pop. Ichi today with me. I have fabulous market fabulous worked as a research scientist in midtech for more than twelve years in top tier institutes. He was involved in the enterpreneurial seen leading to multiple startup. Successes including one. Ipo he set up from scratch and lead monaco tech the first and only innovation program founded by the monaco government and french billionaire. Avi neil in less than a year. He created a portfolio of hand companies. Valued over one hundred million euros. He then founded with brian frederiksen. Monaco foundry with the ambition to revolutionize the way we turn ideas into global commercial successes within a few months. They assembled a remarkable team of cyril entrepreneurs former senior government advisers and fortune five hundred executives combining strong corporate expertise with entrepreneurial mindsets welcome to propensity for february's very much evidence affects. I tend to be part of this show me. I really love your journey. And of course i let the listeners discovery. Discover your journey through conversation. But i'm super happy to i to be talking with someone on the other side of the atlantic in monaco right now and to have someone with such an interesting path from from being on the bench in science and today being you know deeply involved and and dedicated to deep tech to to getting ideas from the bench to the markets in innovative and disruptive ways so welcome to the show. So let's start by the beginning. I didn't mention it in the intro. But you did. You have a an academic journey before going into business. Entrepreneurship started this startup space. Can you tell the listeners. A little bit about that. Yeah he sure. I was always passionate about creating staff building steph understanding. How stuff works. So i was is a nice school. Her and i was interested in science. I didn't engineering school. The master degree then. Continue to impeach g because i was kind of following naturally what i was interested in rights without giving much thought about having a career building. Something do i really fit in the environment. I mean it's those kind of things that i was more aware and Later on in my career. So i think it's. It's yeah this is what has always been driving me. Understanding how things work Working with people. That i like also be part of the team. And i think that's i think the major takeaway the davlantes working is the jimmy. Not that i mean it's nothing. Nothing is a one man band right. I mean it's always a team effort. I mean it's it's it's long process is also i mean as a medic from bench to bedside can take decades or a couple of decades right so it's on the same team that started the project that finishes it so you can help you put yourself and your your own self value in perspective right so and yeah yeah and and and so it was very very interesting and maybe at some point also was also the fact. That's it's the meeting that you have people kind of coincidence knife right. And there's one quote from syria. That i love is you can only connect the dots looking backwards. Not forward right. So now when you explain my mic and of path like that intro. You sounds like a well thought planned right from the get-go very linear cut three right through. It was like it is right. It was kind of the accident of life. Then meeting of people the that you realize also that sometimes you also put some stuff on the road to kind of please. People try to fit in and i get him as a very specific environment rights for good reasons also. Because it's i think it's it has some kind of a purity in the mission and it's kind of complicated to preserve that on one hand and to be honest out our made for that environmental. So so it's interesting that you say that but because you must have had a moment where you figured out that you were not made for it but didn't know it on the you know from the at first you said you were kind of you know going through the moves of my undergrad. I don't know if you do the masters you followed the steps. Everyone else around. You will following. When was. Let's say a moment of clarity. I of saying of saying okay Something very interesting for me outside outside this thing. That is taking all of my time and focused right now but then also you know a moment of clarity of not only. There's something very interesting outside. I feel that actually. I'm not thriving here and you know you know th that moment of okay. I you know i should probably finished my phd. And you know we can talk about that and people people drop drop rpg's and as many why you should dropout but there's also many good reasons to finish my point is what you know what maybe keep keep points during this job of doing this research. The getting data tweeting data writing up defending. When we're maybe people you met your places you went that changed kind of your mindset and made you look at your future in a different way. Yeah so i really think my after my phd. That i graduated into the nine. And then i work for three years at columbia university in the us. I think those three years where the most a critical to me and most life changing experience on so many levels right first. There's the transitioning from paris and french culture to to the us. Speak for hours about bad. Because i think that just about that. Because i think the american countries the exact opposite of the french culture almost every aspect from the social interaction and from the mind said blatant the blind optimism in the future wants to. We are very pessimistic and critical in france. The the way people like a approach and conceded the work. I mean all of these super different. So i'm not saying that the model is the best one. There's so many things that i think much in europe to be honest but just for that was so enriching to experience. Something drastic difference. So that that first and foremost i think also i was always interested in this kind of was not doing a phd in quantum physics. Of not saying it's bad. It was a very applied field rights. And this is. What i always wanted is to be from bench to bedside and actually impact the life of people in the end that that was actually what we always. Drive me but moving to that. When i graduate pitch. Jean francois you sending in the french academy system you want to create a startup you capulet capitalistic devon right viewed by that and i had the very siloed european vacation i was doing engineering and biomedical engineering and business was always the sward to be quite fun now literally just funny i just i just shared something this week about people you know this kind of discourse of don't go there it's the devil like you said you know we we were at the right place. This is the the higher ground You know the high road the ivory tower. Yeah there you go there. Let's go ahead and so what when you did. I think really. That's really interesting and not everyone is ready to move countries not everyone. It's not something for everyone. But i feel that i think even avid. It's and i respect that. And i but i think if you can if you're not to attach for any reason to where you are you will gain by by spending one year two years outside. Maybe if it's to say you know what. I really loved where i was directly but to see something different i mean totally totally and to experience the different perspective to understand that we are all biased. Does that just despite experiencing and living in another culture whatever it is you get more perspective on yourself because you can understand. That's the bias that you have are not the a black the obvious truth that everybody should idea to. It's it's just your own bias culture bias. That's the first thing. And i think they're the most people at the moment is i was immersed in the american culture like if i would take a very exaggerated expression but kind of a pioneer cowboys that possible and don't worry just just just execute and keep pushing and something good is going to happen. Which is the exact opposite of the european countries So that was interesting and businesses a second language in the us rights and i was interacting with people with education at all. There were there. Were more business savvy than hours. And i i. I was also exposed to a company that was created during their phd and so forth. So i was in contact of this kind of thing. But i realize by moving to the us. Oh actually far. I was that world and disconnected from that world. And how the way the vision that you should have to build. A business is totally the opposite. One that she should have as a scientist So just a question. I i what i seem to understand. Is that the the interface between academia and industry was very strong. Where where you were. And i and. I've heard this from other guests in other universes other regional research centers in the us. I don't know if it's generalized but clearly You know there's something about the culture that that's already different and there's already conducive to do this. These deep tech projects potentially confirm. It's it's part of the the routine. Let's say a police at yes. I was in the in one of the lab that was creating of et cetera et cetera. There was one of the most a pioneer in france to be honest but even being there. I just realized by moving to do how far i was really understand what it means to build a business and it was still scientists that are professor that the notorious takers. They don't want to chris sexually. And actually i realize. This is one of the moment like because i always tended before to kind of project. What was my singularities as the norm. What and i was like okay. I don't understand the is they do the research they find new inventions and so forth the create new stuff. And then there's some guys coming business coming in become the ceo of the company and and they run the business. I mean did but it did realize actually most of the professor's attention they don't want to get into business now happy to stay stable environments are minister she because in france all the all the all the actually seen servants right Yeah i mean you you can abuse your job of being an enterpreneur and i'm not saying that as a bad thing right i mean it's always thinking there's nothing that's in intrinsically good or bad right dow things that are made up for you or your could out for those things or not right. It's the other around right. So this is one of the realization. Then like i said moving to the us at columbia. I also access of a extracurricular resources was part of the consulting club. Kind of train myself. And actually if you if you ask me. What's the biggest value. That i took from having going through g. is to finally realize that i can learn by myself stupid. Sounds stupid to get to have to get that point that hard to realize that things. That actually should be that simple. But that's that's what's gave you the confidence to say okay now today with internet you have. I mean you can learn anything from your from your from your bedroom along right. Yeah and i get. The feeling i get is as long as you stayed in france. You were in this comfy situation and everything was known to you you you weren't pushed out of your. It's what you hear a lot out of your comfort zone once you once. You change settings to the dates. I you saw everything's different. There's probably some cultural clashes happening. But also from what i get there. Were also happy to see these cultural traits that were very aligned with your values exactly but you needed to work with known. There was no net. You didn't you had to go at it for yourself. Forced to find the strength of root of vying for yourself and and learning new things. But also i feel that they were giving you resources. You were talking about a club that you know that this club that you were part of you can you just Club from columbia. Actually pods grads. I wanted to transition you. Businesses the globe we review business case and so forth so it was kind of training practically like business cases right on say this is this is this goes against again for the case of telling people go outside for at least part of ups right helio hellier true and i would even say that's the way that it was in france and the way that i felt in france was still the way we manage is still very yard. A lot of micromanaging. Actually mike was very involved and was worried involving the technical aspects. And being better that i was at at doing science rights while when it was my. Pi was a typical us like one ti nominee of managing big hobby of pige. These and building. I i read their an i to mentor to to appear that. We're asking me questions looking for guidance. While i was just transitioning to new lab and i remember very very going to my pr after fed experiments and explained to her all the problems that i Than and all the things that we need to gender coupon to buy. And i remember very loud and clear. What what you told me like this. I don't care about problems uncovered solution. So let's very business like say yes exactly and then i realize okay. I'm in charge right. And then she she she she. I think that's such a great gift. She gave me that day she. She gave me the sense of responsibility. Though i was in charge of my research project i was not a student anymore. I was in recent scientist right and that was a very big transition there to me personally. You know for sure so again. Clearly someone with who being being where you were in france there were you know you didn't. Your horizon wasn't wind enough to find this kind of tribe that that you were going to belong to late iran and that change when you went into when you went to the us. But i i'd like to talk about because when we are telling people that he also greet going out for at least for period of time is going to be good for is going to be enriching. There's challenges there's you know. There's cultural clash. Can you just talk a little bit about aspect and also. I'm wondering depending on how on what the pace was at the lab if you had also to adjust you know if there was a period of adjustment of okay. The rhythm here is different. You know and i need to keep you know keep pelt. You know physically healthy mentally healthy and perform at this this project. Can you talk about that aspect of being a being a foreign person getting into a new country different cultures and spent performing. I guess it was I mean it's always a very personal economic talk about my friends. Because young personally. That i know i don't expect that my my mice burn cd would be the non right and era this lab that is also kind of a strong french connections and it was also very international. A lot of a big asian chinese japanese speeches students. My was greek greek. She's but she's greg. She needs spot of a master in france. So this is why. The there was a connection avatar. Yeah but so. He was good to find. Some kind of commodity. I mean y- felt like home and some point having some french people around. But actually i mean we. We never spoke french with my. Even though she was two hundred french and even at some point we realized at lunch we were speaking. Listen and we were just french people around the table. So let's yeah so i guess it's it's part of. Yeah i think this is why management and leadership is very important. And this is maybe one of the biggest that i understood from my my my. Pi is our role was not to be. The best at science roles was to make sure that everybody was performing in the best environment possible rights. And they're kind of family sense really re strong. But then i mean it's also me my personal journey right. I was transitioning from this kind of student was basically doing what i've been told. And you was like like you said. I mean i almost quit my phd. Because it was freaking hard for the first year. I had zero results and so forth and actually i have my wife to thank for it because she was very very supportive and she almost with meat for continue and not true true true and very good for that. She did to be honest. And sometimes you. You need those grid honesty right at this planning finisher page and then you can do what you want. Okay that's a fair deal and said if people who are listening. There's people going through mental health issues and taking a long break is a is a solution but quitting. Also if the is something that is hurting you tell you too much for different reasons. There's there's no you know you don't fail at life not doing a. Pg you're going to find something else in flourish in knowing something else and it's going to be fine. True true about family talk about having a sense of family. Did you guys have activities. My my question is how did you integrate in the community and into all these culprits during to look like google do like ping pong soccer football activities. It's like a handwriting people around you. It's not something that you can force right. You can out with people that you don't like and having drinks you never going to like them so i think it's it's it's more about creating an environment what people trust each other then can be truthful to each other and you and it's i mean. There's no shocker to that. There's no tricks that i mean and that's very true with anything i mean. That's the i mean especially today where where we live in an instant gratification society where you have all these cells giving you acts and tricks and shortcuts and this is bullshit all the real things in life take time and effort that the word. That's it so this is something that is built on time. That's when i was was created in two thousand and four join into southern five twelve. So i was not like the first batch but then you're still kind of a in the of environment you start up your only friends and and this is actually at the very the very beginning. That's you can set up the the good foundation to build the culture. Because it's it's exactly that bill with values with a vision and people need to know. Need to know why they're doing what they're doing that. That's that's the bottom line. If you know why you're doing what you're doing. Because i mean let's be honest. Everything is going to be hard. No matter what right now. Everything is hard right. Don't design design is hard so what we what we keep you going when things get get get hard rights i mean when would quit so this is why i think i'm i mean i'm not a lot of people say that i mean but yeah be very clear about what are your objectives in lives and and that's kind of stupid and easy but that's something. That's i realized at this point. What like twenty eight twenty nine. Like almost the ended ago. I realized that. Yeah i mean. I studied b. b. becoming serious about asking those questions And serious about answering them and not doing what people expected me to do. Or what good right like screw. Everybody i'm glad to be selfish for a moment and we understand what drives me life. This is very interesting. What you're saying. Because it can sound harsh but i see i see what you want to take any given example think about an example that you could share with the listeners of what you mean by not giving them and being selfish but you know being selfish in in the sense of i have an objective and i'm going to not take my eyes off of the of the price i think can you give an example of how that transpired at what you something you did. That really gives this message as an example. It's a process. It's a process that i started ten years ago and it's still working progress. I mean i. I think that's i've been keeping us asking those questions. I've that made me realize that being honest and true i think the easiest people to lie to yourself. I'm going to write and knowing yourself. I think it's a lifelong process. And i don't know if i would be able to fully understand and know myself at some point but that's that's that's the goal i won't actually one of my right and then the sending like i told you that finally what are my my religion. The fact that i'm weird i'm passionate. I'm sam confident. But i almost unbolt. Let's i. I mean ignoring those traits and understand that i'm impatience. Also so of course. Some stuff that's takes on at some point can also get me frustrated. I zero patients for politics and bureaucracy. For instance and to s coming back to the french academic system. i mean. it's exactly that i understand. Because it's always the sending the bigger you grow as an organization. The less the less agile and you will be the more stable will be an also for good reasons right. I mean stability is not bad actually. Actually that's that's that's the main that people change it's to make sure that everybody is stable and we save and we have this number of course but i realized that i was actually very comfortable being being constable right. I liked to tear teradyne down. What i've done if need to start again and and actually i have more fun studying stuff from scratch than managing something that works. Then he goes to the point. That people are different. You know people will want to go to abroad. Some people like to start seeing. Some people prefer to be working something. That's already rolling in the. You know i totally understand. Now you talk about you talked about breaking something down to start something new and you know we talk. We kind of went up until you worked three years at the lab and then what happens to the next chapter and this is going to be also part personal happy to share it was my wife made tremendous safer to follow me in the us so it was not that easy for her are also goal was always not to leave there forever because of family friends and leaving abroad. I mean like everybody in life so you always have a price to pay. People tend to forget that so whatever you do the press to pay the price to pay for having such great experience was being away from family and friends and missing out lots of opportunities and so forth. And i think three years and we've seen with offerings that were in. Us also kind of a cover racial right either you become you become expatriated and become like a residence in us for life all you come back right and and we chose to come back right to be was also the end of a cycle based on the research that we've done. I really felt the goal was to save for two years. I mean let's be honest. And but i i stayed one more year. Be able to finish what. I would study which was kind of this so i was working on the on on a my role on was transitioning from mouse model to permit. Model making the Proof of concept on that model. I wanted to finish. I mean right. You want to close my job. I've done what was supposed to do. What kind of puzzle attempting. I could have also maybe stay the us system but we say to come back so and actually let s. I came back to france. And based on what i've done i i've started looking obita in the concept jobs because this is this is this is what on paper liked to now. This kind of business. What was common sense. It was new to use logic that i've developed through science on another field and actually was a terrible experience. We actually need just one or two interviews. And i realized it was the most rigid very much was not creating not a good fit for another good for me and once again. That's fine and actually. I moved back to another lab a on with the intense to create a startup. Right that was that was the day they really made me come back. The wasn't bottle Eulogy was so new topics. And i haven't said that's my. My focus was actually therapeutically. Sounds focused ultrasound to to burn tissues. Been the in the body next to treat tumor and also use mechanical effects for drug delivery or actually cardiac pacing so. That was what i was doing in in buffalo and it was amazing for two years sending like from scratch the with what we had software hardware prototyping show the first proof of concept an animal models during the. There's something that needs to be investigated and could be translated one day and then he was very very complicated than to transfer. Because i mean i'm okay. Yeah and you can get into the process. The process was too cumbersome. The thing is there's a lot of big entities that helped to detect transfers for example. I had five dollars patents cook and the thing is for all of these big entities. Your product is nothing so no owner as zero for the product. Go forward right into. So it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's very hard to to do something efficiently and the and actually so and then after four years that i had the opportunity to come back to monaco which is my mom my own country and actually left when i was sixteen live as an adult in my own country which oh yeah kind of weird when i came back and to still feel country country. It's interesting before going to interview. I just want to let you know of a promotion offered that. I received for all of the public beach listeners. If you need graphics or animations for your research or if you creating content of any kind. Scientists studio reached out to me to offer ten percent off of any of the services from whiteboard animations in script writing to social media management and conference launch packages to get ten percent off. All you need to do is go to scientists dot studio with two ts. The link is in the show notes and use the promo code papa. Phd in one word at checkout and now back to our interview knowing and having talked with you before. I kind of see where this is going you. You saw that the system. The classical or canonical system wasn't working and then and then i think that's you know i let you talk. And until the next chapter. And yes and this is also kind of a contradiction that high have and i haven't always loved to kind of systemic vision and don roche right you have any vision and then executes and but you realize that never happens in big organizations and the thing is i don't have the patience to play the politics right. I mean once again. I'm not i'm not. I think it's a very good trip to have. I think it's some people to actually change stuff in kind of qualities. I don't have them right So so yes and the next chapter was is this kind of approach e to come back and be the first managing director of this new incubation program. Monaco started. I was great because like i said he was my country. I feel very attached to my country but of course that based on my was very complicated to do something there right so it was a good opportunity to come back contributes to add value to my country and do something special about a very very useful and valuable learning experience for me because i transition almost from one day to the other from being a scientist project eater up to building from scratch and incubation program. So question how did that transpire. Did you contacted or were there. Zero call for applications. How added you get this opportunity. Actually very i heard about it like twenty six and at that point i was thinking. That's great so. I'm going to see my owners negotiate with them like royalty deal that they cannot say no to being on my to monaco and start my company in the incubator. That's what i felt. And and then i did the job. Offer the judge cushion for four for the managing director role and three does said. Oh man that's that's on the super interesting. I think it would be very good at it. I think i very much enjoy it. Let's apply and and i got the job. And to be honest it's also was good is most of the screening process was about establishing in a blank sheet. He was a governor doing innovation. They have no clue. I mean. I don't think that due to say that it's bad right. I mean government and the navision. It's totally different. Mindset right so the all section process was about having a vision for this program and this is also something that i used to think about for quite some time. 'cause like men such a youtube not my country. Do something like that. There's a lot of assets that we don't capitalize on so actually doing this kind of exercise to submit because of what they've done is they've done an interview like for the last applicants and for the last two or three ones included. They say okay. So we're going to see you tomorrow and we want to see like a two page vision about what's your vision about the program. What is going to be okay and to was like piece of cake. Because i've thought about that for for ages know and this kind of feeling that everything that you've done so fine line in life kind of in line for what you have to do now right and it's funny to have this feeling wise ten years before feeding tony lost and almost quitting and fitting that you're like a like a black swan and you have no idea what you're going right so i mean if that people that are fascinating that way this usually get gets better when you get older there now. I have a question for you. Which is the following. So we're going to talk a little bit. Of course what you do. And what what your organization does but you peach and the that experiencing the states. What does it brought to what you do today. If you can kind of tell what you guys do you know. Because i what i'm always thinking is the listener. Might be thinking the me. But how do i fit such an organization. Can you talk a little bit about that. Yes yes so. I think what when we took away from all my what i've learned as a phd in the scientists and so forth was mainly this this this kind of the same kind of patients and diligent. Because like like i told you that the real things takes time to develop being patient enough in the short run to make sure that you executor on that road as as fast as possible. So that's one the other is like i don't know to what extent it's me personally and what i learned which actually is quite intertwined right. It's kind of willingness to deconstruct everything that you give to me to to understand high could make it better right and if that to pass in front of me and one part that most people will follow and people will take that pass most probably because they will pay more safer safer to follow their own kind and so forth. I'm always willing to take the other. But my premise for the vision is for incubator. Program was incubated doesn't work so they don't value on average and the way we build companies very inefficient. Because as of now if you look at the numbers ninety percent ninety five percents of company they do fail right and as many reason why why why and so. I push as much as i could through the government program. This kind of vision. Then he was not my company. I had also other to answer to of course tek time but and this is what at some point also the vision that they have was very happy with what we built. Pc's a good incubation program. But was much more ambitious than that right so this is why i had a choice either. I would have a very kind of very comfortable position with a good salary. Kind of i profile a lot of press and stuff like that even locally and even maybe a bit internationally okay but this is not what what drives me so actually quits to start my company and i actually this vision like sorry. No it's so. This is how we get to monaco. Foundry and what. I was really curious because melissa. Some that are in their pd feeding of finishing or having finished but some of them And i've talked with some people. I've i've had also some guests who have this entrepreneurial fiber in them and i'm gonna ask it this way. I don't know if it's maybe naive in the in the way i'm going to ask it but we're talking about deep tech we're talking about bringing new genre. New scientific discoveries to application in the world in business in the business way people who are listening who either have an idea that can be p is you can have a molecule they can have treatments. What does monaco foundry bring them. What's what can they get from from from your approach that you feel. They're not getting today. Globally so on one end of like. I mean the problem is the people that i actually. I mean this is going to be a technical. So let's dig into bidding exactly what we do and why we do what we do. Is we partner with with with with company's founders and almost is we become part owner of the company so we consultants. We're not going to be emotionally. They're going to be paid and to be on as the problem of most of those companies. They don't have the financial needs to pay up consultants or if they have they don't wanna to spend of which is actually cover and of course you can do a bit of pro bono but as okay so people can write one time we totally in line objectives so we share the same rich. Because we're going to with the company that we work. We're going to get paid when we're going to sell the company and we and they've entered the so the same reward so it's all matter of of becoming. I mean we become. They're super experienced team. So we've asked i mean. We assembled these kind of people. And i'm going to list. The series and people interested can look at the people now on our websites but i will share the links in the but we basically give access to these early stage funding to the people they did not know approach can pay and disparately needs to a structure and scale of business because the the major challenge is a startup. Used to not waste time. This is a major change because no matter what you do no matter. Proprietary what you've developed etc. The ideas was nothing. The only thing that is worth something is your ability to execute on it and build something as fast as possible before someone bits bits. Bits you to it's right So that's what we do. So basically we had them on any other from strategy the business model who i mean but also connecting them to the right people especially when you have a diptych project. It's usually destroyed. So your clients. I usually be culprits. Which reading inertial bureaucratic and political. And what once when you are in this environment to talk to to make things happen because it's not necessarily the guy that has the big title that acting so that's just based on our experience. Just connect them with the right people and directly the decision maker level. And because the. I've seen a lot of guitar company. They have the impression that the project forward because they are now in talks with big players right to like managers that i've no incentive to push the project forward and aft meetings every three months and nothing moves sword right so what we do. Is we structure. The team we put up with there are working. With the company we condemn with the right people and to be honest and say that very kindly. Because i come from that background and i used to be totally clueless about that but usually a technical founders. They have no clue about how to structure and grow business right and so for example language. It's another cultural altogether so finance. We working with a legend company. That has a great piece of technology. We connecting them to top senior. Vp she lavelle Venture folks with a big corporate like that in the us i mean of course was my partner. That was a former. She footage officer at murder was leading the negotiation right. Okay because you're not going to let those guys. I mean those guys are so humbled i mean the most apologize for being developed something that works right so then people. I'm getting a bit. But the problem is and i will tell you. Why why. why is that. Because i used to be like that. I felt like when i was describing what i was doing. If i was not extensive about the technic and material than the methods and blah blah blah like in for instance for research. I was not legitimate right. Nobody gives a crap. I mean if you want to sell something drug. The science will sounds to the crazy to most people. But i don't give a crap about the science people use. I mean people use smartphone every day. they don't they. Don't have a clue how it works. The only thing they care about is the value that it brings to them. So if you cannot explain to me your program what your what. Your product is going to add to society in two sentences without thinking about science. You don't have a business and this is. This is what i meant. That the mindset that you need to tackle this kind of business environment is total opposites mindset of being a research scientist and once again for very good reasons. You don't want to have a cowboy businessmen to do papers and fake. You results to go faster at this kind of behavior right. So don't think that that's what we bring the biggest value that we bring his throughout our team. We have kind of quadruple quintuple kutcher. We have been enterpreneurs. We have some people that have academic background. We do have people adopt cooperating experience working with governments also and also we we do have lots of people coming from eventual financial awards and all of these worlds are worlds that the spread. You need to work together to create value. But i don't think this send language And i have a question for you and we're reaching the end of the interview. But i again there's people in academia people have many people with artistic interests people you know there are no. There's creative there's but there's people with the entrepreneur fiber and they might be. You know not see like you before going to the states. You didn't see what was behind that chain of mountains you know you didn't see that there was a space there where you would thrive in a different way and kind of to close the interview. What advice do you have for graduate. Researchers or post docs. Who have this will to go into into the business. Enterpreneurship startup space. How can they. What can they do to start open. Open their vistas and may be get get some training or some experience that will help them get to to a to a position that resembles yours. Yes i think first and foremost be on us for yourself. Tried to understand. Is it made for you right. I willing to meet the risk-takers are you willing to pay yourself. Sorry for twelve months. I because there's no such thing as an assistant entrepreneur. You're gonna have to fight. I mean this is also delusion. I mean it's crazy about all this public funding and especially in france. I mean they give a lot of grants to enterpreneurs. it's counterproductive because you force people that are not made out to take risks become entrepreneur because it's a business as we see you on it then the then finding job right. I mean that's what you see so that that's one i mean if it's not for you that's fine. There's multiple way that other scientists you still can be a shoulder in the company of the border scentific board or whatever so you don't have to be the being a ceo of your own company you will need to burn science completely almost sits right and you can be maybe the chief scientific officer you can shift technical officer many roles and responsibilities so first and foremost be honest with yourself. What do you want. what are you good at. And i strongly believe that everybody has a very thin layer where thin regimen is if he can seize optimal rights. So be there if you if you re go at neko networking having managing leader these other traits right and and those things are very hard. I mean to me. This is something that i'm very keen on learning about leadership and so forth and that's the major pointing my in my own character that i'm trying to improve. That should be honest right because it's making and what's very hard. It seems kind of gis right. Seen this kind of movies with captains. I mean war army and you see this band of brothers and and we see that i could be there that one right. I could be that leader. It's not that easy right. It's to be able to be the one of the most person ever right because you. The ceo is to put everybody else in the company before yourself. It's i won't like it is going to be hard and actually it's going to be much hotter than doing pitched difference not for the same reason. Not just be honest. let's face it. What is going to be. And then i think the only thing that you can do is it's a frigging peric process. Right did try narrow. You're going to have to go do fail a lot. Sometime miserably. keep learning and curiosity willingness to learn from your mistake and this is why i think unity is the most important trait right when you're going to have a feedback from a customer or whatever that's going to tell you that something is wrong and you need to change. Will you have the necessary humidity to take into account to change or you. Will you listen to you and please you go and telling everybody else is wrong. Not me so. I think that's so i yeah very very. Check yourself with your character. Are you willing to do it. And then just do it. I mean i. It's there's there's no magic recipe literally. You can build a company only focusing on who you want to serve and the standing. What are doing on a daily basis. Right what jobs dot trying to connect with them on the functioning level but not only emotional and social right because this is what sells and understand what kind of value you can add. And then you designed the products. Not the other and usually. It's and i've been doing that right. I work on the thing. I think there's a product and the product is the value of the product. So abused that everybody's going to buy it that doesn't like that unfortunately And and a one less thing if you know people who listeners who might feel. But i don't know the culture or again the hero a rotten. We talked about this at the beginning. That what the here in corridors is. Our business is dirty How can they network themselves to start. Learning the lingo. And and maybe start meeting people who can make this change. Just as the last comment show i mean. Networking is arnold. So there's no. I mean something that you take a lifetime. That's also something that i wish i understood. Maturity are in my life to be on the value of a good networks. And that's something you need to build on. Tyler is. The thing is usually if you can. You should contact even call contacts people and just be curious about what they do. I mean people that usually will respond so you can do that very easily. You can also registered to go to networking sessions dow dot of clubs and stuff like that to meet people. But yeah i mean us us exactly the same thing that you do. The scientists rights to. I've apathetic those operators. This is exactly what you need to do on the business side right but the in them. Meaning that you need to talk to your new potential customers. You can talk to people and say okay this. I mean once you're engaged discussion with someone is going to be very easy to to nurture this relationship and use use it not intended use the person but just be respectful and be curious and then which at the people that that happened but if people want to talk with you and ask you some questions. How did they reach out to you how they found out about your ongoing projects. What's what the the links and maybe twitter handle that you have to our websites. We have contact email there. we ever linking patriots. So i'm thinking also so people can reach out to me there I'm usually quite nice. And responsive what i'll do is i'll put put those in the in the notes page In the newspaper the the episode can do you wanna share The at least the url of monocle found. Reassure so it's monaco. Ample and aco foundry f- you n d r y dot com and my personal email address fabulous at monaco. Foundry dot com excellent. I hope it was an interesting conversation for you. It really was for me. Because it's not so often that i can you know that. Have someone who goes so deep into the just the statement of. Let's burn the science and think of the final user. It's kind of counterintuitive but i. It was really interesting to to try to wrap my around. That and i think it's gonna be really interesting to the to the listeners. To and what was. Also what i found also really interesting was the whole process of for you of you. Know being in science and not really conscious of the possible interface with with business. You know in and within entrepreneurship then moving country and having your your whole horizon change completely and then your mind set changing completely also and then the the other kind of again when you say when you look back its linear but then you found this opportunity in france which was kind of connected to knowledge transfer then eventually going back to your country where you were born to do something really much closer to what you do today and finally say okay. I'm gonna go out on my own. You know with with colleagues. Of course i really find it inspiring and again it shows how a phd is something that does not limit what you can be. It's something that that that a fuels what you can be. If you have creativity it can be on the creative side. if you have. This entrepreneur fiber can be entrepreneurs. I really enjoyed it. Not thank you very much. I was very enjoyable to me. Such a great show keeper. David and yes i agree. I think there's a lot of value in. I think maybe the pg crowd is still one of the most undervalued crowd compared to what they can do right. And i think in the north american culture. It's a bit less in europe. It's even i mean. I'm sorry i'll show the as doing one of my Interview at for job. One of the human resource person told me like on looking at your resume. Now you've you've done of the top engineering school in france and then you've done done a phd right. I don't understand this. This is not added value to meet scan of subtracted value. And then as i say. Okay i never gonna work you buy with this well but you know things are changing. I agree that it's been the that's the reality that we have and we have inherited. But just like papa peachy. I see other things happening out there even in universities that are are kind of changing the ways the pg's understood by by candidates but also by potential employers. And i. you know it's it's hard. It's a lot of work to change something that's been deep-seated for a while but You know you you're right. The what's what we've inherited is a very rigid in stewart. Typically image but things like this conversation. Today i think will help break it and an open up people's horizons and l. Help them imagine themselves differently. And in picture themselves in the future in a different way. That's exactly anything's possible. I mean you can learn anything and once again limited yourself fabulous again. Thank you and all the best for your projects. Yes you david. Clarkson thank you. And that's it for this episode of papa peachy. Thanks for tuning in happy sharing and see you next week. Thanks for listening to another episode of the papa. Phd podcast head over to papa. Peach dot com for show notes in for more food for thought about non-academic post grad careers. I'll always be happy to share inspiring stories new ideas and useful resources. Here on the podcast. So make sure you subscribe on itunes or wherever you get your guests to always keep up with the discussion and to hear from our latest guests.

france monaco us midtech monaco government Avi neil brian frederiksen Monaco foundry chris sexually helio hellier Ichi Jean francois french academy teradyne Mendez columbia cyril don roche columbia university
Zo Ayres  Part 2  Being a Research Scientist in the Water Industry

Papa Phd Podcast

29:06 min | 1 year ago

Zo Ayres Part 2 Being a Research Scientist in the Water Industry

"Part Two of my conversation with Zoe heirs. We discussed her experience. Transitioning from an industry led post talk to her current position in the water industry. We talked about the application and interviewing process in about best practices at this important stage about what you bring to the table as a candidate when you have ADT and also about those experienced so far as a research scientist when I go to industry I found that the collaboration was was great and the way more about the teamwork than it is about individual success and I maybe naively. I really buy into that like I really enjoy that kind of driving the fact that we will pull together we we might have a tight industrial deadline. And we're like okay. What are we going to do? And how are we going to get there? And how can we break this down? So we talk about point. Welcome to pop up with David Mendez. The podcast where we explore careers and life after Grad school with guests who have walked the road less traveled and have unique stories to tell about how they made their place in the world of constantly evolving rules. Get ready to go off the beaten path and on for an exciting new episode of Papa. Phd So welcome to part two of my interview with Zoe. Airs in part one we talked about what led her to her pitchy. Then her post doc and then her current position we talked about How the experience of going through the PC was for her and About why she's now advocating strongly for better mental health in in graduate school and we also talked about the fact that university. I have to step up to the plate to take care of this of this mental health situation gradual which the the numbers are not good and Yes people have to find resilience within them but there's also a culture that needs to be changed and And resources that the need to be set up to really reduce these numbers and make the Peachtree A healthy experience for everyone. But now what we're going to talk about in the second part is always transitioned to industry. So we already said in part one that she Had done peachy end of the tour industry backed and we talked a little bit about how that worked. But eventually zoe you. I don't know what came first. Did you decide okay? I'm going to industry or did an opportunity appear that you that you jumped jumped on. I guess the only downside to that is both in the sense. A high stokes said so often have the precarity of Contracts my contract as a post doc with not far away Being Juve to beat to be completed. I'd need to play into the post. Doc maybe move somewhere else. and say The Fi the I been kind of browsing and looking and seeing you were is out there and the job die. Sore in the water industry came up. I looking down like I don't fit all of these things. The I fit a good portion of ease and I I remember specifically having conversations with people before How particularly like women's don't applies to jobs that they don't hit one hundred percent of their criteria roof and I remember having the Emma head knows like no. I need to apply for this job and I did take that leap and I was very lucky in the sense. The first job that I applied for she ended up landing and it was a ended up being a dream job for me. I really enjoy it. on. I've been very very lucky. The right place. The right time I didn't it was she'd local to where I was working so didn't have to move Which was which was really radium. Actually quite important for me and my my family life So she you say Extraordinary lucky in ready thankful that came my way So things worked the first time and I think it's really humanizing. The two states that look at part in it and often when when we see success presented around us we don't wear their in and then we ended up saying Oh. I'm not as good as this person beside me. But you know there's different serendipity there's different things that bring people to where they are important say that but can you still. Even though a everything worked finally didn't have to do a dozen interviews can still talk a little bit about how the how you prepared how the interview process was. Did you have to write a cover letter? Can you just talk a little bit about that? For people who wonder how is it. Know how? How is it that I prepare to interview for an industry job? The main thing I can really think of I think stood out for me when I was writing my CV. I remember thinking Gosh. My publications aren't really relevant to me. Tried to really reframe my experience in a way. That would be appealing in the sense. That sounds strange. The I tried to get in head space of of the industry. But I think I was had some industrial experience as well with some Miami shaping industry backs and things like that and so you for my my CV. I really made sure that I was drawing on the fact that we think that when we're in the lab with doing a PhD might be looking after an undergraduate project for example. And you can write. The EC provide some undergraduates And you can write that as your experience. Cpa supervision and you are capable of going into a role way you lead people and so a lot of it was really reframing some of the academic experience that I had in a way that actually made it so that it would be applicable. Also you Things like doing outreach. Science communication as well as kind of the pulling on the fact that that is really being to communicate Simply and that's something that's really useful in industry if you will if you're working with different stakeholders getting assigns across as really important. I find that the case late breaking when I'm working with Patent Lewis. These guys are wonderful in that great They they don't know the INS and outs of the science. Like I would do because I've been doing it on a daily basis Think is really kind of drawing on that kind of skill set and being like okay now I do have these skills actually getting that across cool and I'm just curious. Now so you you apply. Was there like I interview. Second interview. How was I was the do the process I? I had an interview like I got the job. I wasn't forward Yeah I I wouldn't say that was anything different old unusual ready with the process. I was WANNA ask you. Did you prepare? Did you did you? Did you mock interviews before did you have someone helping you with that? I think remembering by. I like talking with friends. I think like distorting through like and just people that were she scientists around me into Spain not you. Do you think this sounds alright? But for me tyler is like well. I go to apply for something and it was a case of like you know. I'm just GonNa go in and D actually like prepared less than I would usually do and I think that may be made me less stressed in the in the interview process which maybe doesn't sounds a bit counterintuitive. I think sometimes to me like I'm perfectionist. And if I over prepare it can be very very wooden. Thinking starts the I. I had the benefit as well as the that. Like you know. It was my first fast application. So it's not like I was like all right. I've got to go in and out need like smash this. This is Hey this is probably one of many. Say think again. It wasn't like a connex image for me so you went in and relaxed and it ended up working out now. That was like first day first week in industry. Let's say the new position. How was that and did you kind of at the time like compare internally to the lab to university. I'm just curious of how that changing of environment of culture how you lived through that what feelings that elicited and how happy you were with your new new setting. Yeah I mean I think for a One of the things that became apparent very early on and I think is still a case. Is the high pace nature of being an industry? Setting You know I had great on boarding into companies are very high paced Environment and I really enjoyed that So it was a case of like especially with onto a chemistry background is like I get stuck in the lab day if he thinks For me it was very much like you go in and decent some some of this research to see what you find and I've been very lucky that I'm I'm I'm allowed to have a free rein over what they do and that was apparent. Very early on So for me like it was quite freeing in a sense that like I get to drive in the direction I want to An that became s dot. Freedom became very obvious. Very early on for me One thing I didn't ask an I should've maybe asked at the outset. Is what position were you hired into. What what is it that you're that you're doing now? What what what's the name of the position in was? What is it that you do in your day today? So I'm a research scientist. So I primarily work on the research and of research development and I developed new on. It's cool tools for the water industry and that involves see working with researchers from all over the globe we have we have open innovation Where we can speak to new people were you looking for the next the next cool thing so to speak. So that's kind of the role and when we were off the Mike you mentioned teamwork you said you you were talking about this culture of Teamwork in industry and I had to me when we were talking that it's something that surprise you something that you appreciate a lot. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah I ain't for me One of the things about about academia is that I one of the things that I found difficult is the competitive nature of academia gem ruin we know from from some research has been done the a large portion of of never go on to be a professor in this that kind of kind of competition often results in people not necessarily being collaborative and making sure that they're going to be the professor one day you and I. I really work that way. Like I like to collaborate and when to industry I found the the coversation was was great and the way more about the teamwork than is Abou individual success and I may be naive. Genera really buy into that like I really enjoy that kind of drive in the fact that we will put together we. We might have tight industry deadline. And we're like Kay what we're GONNA do and how we can get there. And how can we break this down so we get to that point and again just out of curiosity in in your lab and your run around you. Are there the people with journeys that looked like yours? That the that impeached post doc and are also You know working in in in your research group. I don't know how it's organized but I'm just thinking whether you you have like like minded people that you can see every day well not today because we we're regarding this during the covid pandemic and people are and you're working from home but in normal times. Do you have other post? Docs that are around you at work to say like my team is made a purse people primarily that do have PhD's But I will say how some amazing research assistance the are into graduate university trained And Yeah I guess so. It gets away with them and they're fantastic. See we have a real range of people from different backgrounds and different areas of expertise to kind of cover the whole kind of Omelettes cool and research area. I just want to take a moment before going on with the interview to let you know that you can help me. And the show by leaving a star rating in a comment on your podcast APP. If you're not on apple podcasts you cannot leave your rating and review by visiting Papa. Phd DOT COM FORWARD. Slash pod chaser. She want to step further. Go to Patriot. Dot Com slash up a PhD now and become a supporter for the equivalent of coffee per month. You'll be helping me immensely with the recurring cost of hosting and producing the show again. Thank you for being a true fan. One thing that sometimes you hear. Is that all of you to your creativity is something you won't be asked to. Us anymore your your or your intellect won't. Bs challenged as it would have been in academia and again from our conversation. I seem to have understood that. Your experiences is opposite to this. Yeah I'm so I remember the. I guess I've talked to kind of open about my transition to industry. I guess it sounded relatively simple but from kind of a kind of mental boxing match so to speak of like you know. Should I go do this? Well NO I. I think I would have made a good professor. I think there's something that I would have liked to have pursuit and so I had to kind of make this Dec- decision between academic track and industry I like to think that it's not necessarily so separate that I could never go back. But you don't hear that often and one of the things. I remember being asked someone saying to me is that you will not be creative like you. All Hey in academia and I remember thinking like I really enjoyed being creative And you is not something that I'm GonNa leave because even though I had industry-leading Clinton sponsored the a PhD research and Post Doc Research. It was primarily academic and so a kind of toyed with the concept of whether or not it actually have the freedom to do. I wanted to do and I think various company by company by been very very lucky to have the creative freedom. the On the everyday get into. Where can I actually enjoy doing? The research and the like does get me out of bed in the morning sitting thing and you mentioned. Also tell me if I'm recalling right that you have discussions with other groups so I guess in that sense there's also this aspect of Like brainstorming and And find the in you know again. Finding new things are new solutions for problems that that the company is finding. So do you agree. Do you think this is? Also something that motivates you and that people that are thinking of maybe going into industry they might look forward to. Yeah I mean for me like I'm a real people personally to speak to people and say a nice aspect of this job is that I get to go to conferences and I get to speak to other research groups and things like that and really kind of understand and enjoy geeking out a little bit about the people science as well And so I I kind of get to see an Iot necessarily half degree three some of those payrolls of that research at to get to use their own enjoy. Some some of the could scientists outlast so cool and something that I just came to our is. Is there any sort of collaboration with universities at the company? You're working in or not at all because sometimes that's also interesting. Companies that have the have inter that interface with universities to. Yeah I think I think Where if there's new research will lick wherever if it's a university level whether it's you much further down the line? I think new research you have to be open to that something something that someone who is wondering about the career in Industry. They might be wondering. How much am I going to make it? I'm not going to ask that question but how happy I'm going to be with what I achieve. How can my career evolve Can you talk a little bit about The career path? Once you're you have entered so you've entered to certain position you know. I imagine there's some sort of revolution and you'll talked about on boarding what happens after you're in your job and then you want your first year second year. How things evolve. How can people project themselves into five years ten used industry and I know you're not there yet you and we have people around you that have that have from from what I've seen this project? Trees that are available for people for for example myself. Doesn't I would expect some point to move towards being a senior scientist for example The moment forty style having a team of people that work for and with me And so I'm taking on the responsibility of not just managing your try and then managing a team and so I think it's been a not true kind of Progression of responsibility on that sort of more management style kind of GT's. I have rather than just being a scientist that goes into the lab every day and I'm already thinking about the grand scheme of things so not more project planning And then like a rule like industry wise in the have end reviews and things like that. Get you through your performances managed and then you whether when you performing well no And again like with with a heavy emphasis on teamwork You then you can make the scale that way so I imagine you also have things because in the position. You're you're working in know to to find what skills you've brought from your academic training today. It's pretty clear now. My question is is like the flip side is. What have you learned what you feel? You've learnt You know from these two years that you either didn't expect or that you find is is really cool is really different from what you had experienced In academia for me the the one thing that I found just been raining. Impressive is the cohesiveness of all the different divisions. So you've got like Research Development. You've got the product team you you've got all of these different people working together. Ultimately to to make products Will be useful for people tease and like all these people together like coming together. As one time she makes an amazing stuff is pretty impressive though. That's definitely one one very cool thing. And it's something that once you see these projects with this product. You don't imagine all the collaboration and the people pushing okay. There's this deadline we need to you. Know promotion team go mark team go et. Cetera ET CETERA. It's a it's a huge common effort and and I imagine that one wants something launches a product or something. It must be a very very good feeling for everyone. Things I ever work on You go all the way three that. I'm going to be sticking this stickers onto his books so I think we gave A. You'll you'll gave a very very nice snapshot of of what your experience has been so far now. I want to ask you if you either thinking of you during your PhD. Or during a post doc or people who are in those places in life where they're thinking okay should i? Should I suppose stock? Should I straight away? Try to find a job and you have shared that you had it easy in a certain sense of finding a job because things just worked the first time in. You've you found your dream job. It's it's kind of winning the lottery but for people who are doubtful or even people who who are thinking should I go into pitch like am I gonNa have job after that. Can you share like two or three pieces of advice on how to prepare on how to Maybe adapter mindset to allow yourself to believe that. There's there's a future for out there and they'll keep you fulfilled that keep you intellectually stimulated. Then that will give you possibly to have creativity. Which is I think something you said it was important to you but I think for anyone starting in onto a PG. I think all of us like to like said you've creating something brand new so if you have some advice to share this would be. This would be the time I think. One of the primary things to me which I think has been applicable to both academia and industry is to kind of fight the competitive nature of academia. And if he can cooperate. I think that that sort of thing that will serve you well in both both avenues For me like a wet on numerous academic papers with wonderful teams of people and think those Publication would have been the way they were. If I hadn't collaborated the people people have different skills and I think is okay to just be like. I'm no good at all of these things by do know this really great person that can do this aspect of it and I think that kind of mentality applies very direct. Able to industry as well in the sense. That because of the the deadlines and because of the drive to be as you know you've got to get through and ultimately make product. I think actually being able to trust and believe in the people around you Actually worked together is something that I think is is is a skillset. This volleyball going forward. I definitely think the PhD level at. She said she worked for that. As is is your willing to the ground and say hey maybe we should be working on something together. What about In terms of cultivating Kind of a sense of self worth and Good good let's let's mental hygiene have it's to to allow you to thrive and to to to find fulfillment in whatever you do even if the if you fail at certain stages semi actually. I to say much about work on here. I think Chief finding some other things Particularly when you're doing a PhD and work like finding things that you find value in about yourself. Like I finding things like sports and other things to defend me with was really was something that got me through And something that I wouldn't take out with my schedule now. I think actually establishing balance Which can be really hard to do but I I. I'M GONNA say very rarely worked. We can during my PhD. Very lucky with that I had to stop ish that boundary very quickly because I need downtime and to just turn around and say I can't do that Una think now everyone has that choice that the people find themselves in situations where they can't say that I was very lucky that I could But that's something that I've taken through as well in a sense that you finding my identity. Outside of my work has been so much better for me in terms of things. I can post this enjoyment of the things that I could be like. Whoa here these the things that I enjoy an here these other things that I'm good at. I always have to be about being good at something. You could be rubbish helping re and joy and that's fine excellent. Those are two great piece of advice and just to to reiterate what you just said some activity. Physical activity is very good. And it's well known but anything that that takes your mind off whatever is not working at the time and we all know like peaches are the lump of things that don't work and then a few things at work in the end up publishing and So for sure having being in the sports level whatever I I totally agree so those are very very. This is very very good advice. The last thing that I would ask you is if people want to reach out to you You know they. They want to ask about the posters etc. How what's the best way to reach out a contact form on my website which people can contact me three and USA if you find me on twitter than he can Dr it message? Meal you handle on. Twitter is at Zen J. A. Y. R. E. S. With my awkward last name. But you say is that GS perfect. Zoe had a great time talking with. You can imagine you in the lab where you work today and it felt like it's it's a very positive place where you're very good place for you and I think this is one thing that a one stigma one preconception that that should be broken. That industry is gray and drab and I think that you'll testimony was was clear on that. Thank you so much for having accepted my invitation and for being unprepared peachy and and all the best for your for your burgeoning career industry. Let's see where it takes. You thank you so much and also Kudos for still now. Being the party two three years departed from your your academic track still being keeping. Close your heart. The the the the question of mental health in In academia in graduate school and doing all the work with the posters. I think it's a great thing and I hope a lot of people out there find that resource in that because I believe that it'll help them for sure. Thank you so much for having me on if you enjoy insights shared on the show each week and would like to dig deeper into some of the subjects covered. You can now join the pup. Each post graduate career exploration group on facebook there you will find like minded listeners but also a few of the best guests will be taking part in the conversation so to start a conversation just go to FACEBOOK DOT. Com for slash peachy connect to join. And the show has helped you in any way. And we'd like to continue joined the Papa peachy Patriot Patriot Dot com for sash public beach. D ten become a monthly supporter. Helped me continue to interviewing guests and to bring you stories little help you in your career Jordan? Thanks for listening to another episode of the Papa. Peach de podcast head over to pop each com for show notes and for more food for thought about non-academic Boast Grad careers. I'll always be happy to share inspiring stories new ideas and useful resources on the PODCAST. So make sure you subscribe on I tunes or wherever you get your what guests to always keep up with the discussion and to hear from our latest guests.

scientist Zoe research scientist professor Research Development J. A. Y. R. E. S. ADT twitter facebook Grad school David Mendez stokes boxing Miami USA Emma Spain Patent Lewis Mike Kay
Maryse Thomas  Part 2  Science Communication in Academia

Papa Phd Podcast

29:50 min | 1 year ago

Maryse Thomas Part 2 Science Communication in Academia

"In part two of my interview with Marie Thomas. We talked about the role. Scientists can play in disseminating sound scientific information. We also went into the concept and process behind the useful science website and podcast and discussed how being director of the Science Popularization Platform fits in Marissa's academic career for actually participated on student newspapers. I was a design editor. So I wasn't a you know typical editor. You might think of but I was doing graphic design and the layout But I got to see the process and how it worked And after that I also participate in undergraduate science journals So those are more established groups that have been around for for a longer time. Abbott those can give you the same kind of skills and maybe even connections to SICOM path eventually. Welcome to pop up each day with David Mendez. The podcast where we explore careers and life after Grad school with guests who have walked the road less traveled and have unique stories to tell about how they made their place in the world of constantly evolving. Rules get ready to go off the beaten path and hop on for an exciting new episode of Papa. Phd Her so. Welcome to part two of my interview with Maurice Thomas and we were talking about a being in a post doc. But one thing Mary's I'd like to ask you is what about finding post talk a lot of the listeners out there are now in the in their last year last two years of PhD and may be asking themselves. Hold do this. What's you know. What are the steps? What what should I do? What should I prepare? How should I prepare Can you talk a little bit about how you went about Authority mentioned that you had crossed paths with with Europe. Future supervisors but what about the process? The regular process of finding a post doc and apply applying for stocks. How does that? How does that happen? And how did it go for you? My situation was definitely not the typical person's situation. When looking for post doc I had that connection and so in the end it was the only physician I ended up applying for But I think the average applicant would maybe choose something more like five or six possible positions that they're interested in and I think most of this research happens through Through email so looking at a post doc positions that are posted either online or through institutional newsletters for example I think the IP end sets the neuroscience program at McGill. I think they post post doc opportunities at the bottom of their newsletter every week. I think you would start with that and you would look for something. That's first of all of research topic that you are. You want to be in so this is about developing your skills and thinking about if you do. WanNa start a lab. What skills do you WANNA bring to that lab? What do you feel like you're missing? What do you WanNa learn and so you really WanNa find an opportunity? Where maybe there's a balance of of Things for you to learn but also relevant enough to your previous research that you can also offer something to the lab there and then I think he would reach out by email either replying to postings or maybe you could directly contact professors were. You might be interested in working and then the post doc interview process almost always included job. Talk so for me. I did my job talking person. So that means you visit institutes and you would give about a forty five minute or hour long presentation about your work and then you spend the day getting to know the lab meeting the meaning other labs in the area and So I think that is pretty common experience so you could expect if you're going to contact five or six professors. You might end up giving five or six job talks and now I know Dr Happening through zoom and so that might be more of the norm for the next year But I think that would be something. You can definitely expect Did you prepare for job talk? Did you give it to Leah partner or colleagues before you you went on in the and the extra one definitely and I had a a milestone coming up for my phd around the same time. I had a thesis presentation to give. It wasn't the defense but it was before that and so I- manage to time them pretty close together and they were almost the same talk and so having that original run through with my thesis committee was very helpful and preparing for the talk excellent. I think this this is Maybe very Very important advice for people who are wondering what happens. What should I do so prepare? Prepare this talk. I think this must be a very important point. Rehearse it train train. And then it's just a question of finding the interest you and seeing if you're a good match for the lab for the Fisher Moore is now in part to to focus on science communication on on what you've been doing in science communication and we talked about it in part one. It's called useful science dot Org and it's a website where scientists let's say digested and presented in simple terms to the general audience. My question is how was a useful science born? How was the the origin story? Let's say he's signed started at McGill actually so it was the summer of twenty thirteen and the founder of useful sciences yawn out of star so he was my friend at the time. We've known each other since first year. At McGill and Undergrad and He basically reached out to a group of his friends. Who were all either going into research going into Grad school or who had already started doing some research projects and Proposed this premise to us in the premise was simple. It was that we would start writing these one sentence summaries of scientific articles and we you know. I jumped on immediately. I said Yeah I think this is a great idea simple. It was a good time to be starting this. Because if you think back then in two thousand thirteen The character limit for example on twitter was still a hundred forty characters. life hacks were trending. That was becoming a thing and so there was this kind of trend of shortening. And making things quick and easy to understand that contributed to the idea than This this group of original contributors moved to Grad. School moved to different places. And basically through word of mouth it grew until we reached about sixty contributors within a year and the website itself launched in two thousand fourteen. So now we've been around for six years. Well the amazing and and now you have the podcast which is fairly recent. I fairly recently learned about it When was the when but gust born? I think if I remember correctly I think it was about two years after the website started So now it's also been around for a bit but we have thirty three episodes. And so this this is now. Let's say a platform where contributors like? You're saying around the world wherever they are are Are sending in their their work to be published. How did you go about widening this network And and making making it into what it is today was simply too through word of mouth. How did you go about getting more contributors and promoting? Let's say the the website and at the beginning word of mouth was was definitely a major part of it That's what led us to gain more contributors But we also had a pretty big email campaign. Were we Science reporters at basically let them know that the website had launched and we know that a lot of people most of a over four hundred emails in most of them didn't get a reply But the replies that we did get mattered because one of the actually from Malcolm glad well okay and so we have this tweet. If you go on our website we still have the tweet up. The tweet is from like two thousand fourteen But it's basically him Sharing our website and that kind of attention is what definitely gave the website momentum and lead more contributors to reach out to us some. That hadn't that we didn't know necessarily personally but Who just started reaching out now. I've been the director since two thousand eighteen. And so now the job has fallen Warren me to continue recruiting new contributors and now we tend to go more with an open call for contributor style on twitter or on different volunteer websites. And that's how a with this How saying recently we've had a major increase in the number of applications and that's been now through these volunteer websites which Actually been pretty useful for us to find volunteers. Excellent and I'm curious do you get feedback from the public from the General Public Who reads the articles listens to the episodes How how are they digesting this information? Do they write back? Things? Thank you how. How does is there any interaction to get any feedback from the public? We occasionally do. It's when we do get it. We've we've received positive feedback. One time I remember asking I send out a tweet and I said have you made any changes in your life because of a summary that you've read and let us know and then someone replied and told me that they had they had read a summary Where we mentioned that using a meditation APP at work at helped reduce stress from employees. And we put a link to the APP it was. I think it was head space. This is not an ad for them. But it just happened to be the one in the study and That said they actually started using that APP and that it had helped them so we love hearing things like that but mostly it is. It is difficult to It is a bit of a one way. Communication Stream and the feedback. You get is only a percentage of the people that are actually reading and so sometimes it's difficult to know what the reaction is to the to the content that you're putting out so that is the limitation of having a platform where there isn't a huge Emphasis on that kind of two way communication. Same thing with the podcast where you have a lot of listeners Maybe we'll get some emails back from people asking questions I don't know how many emails you get for your podcast on. But for sure it's a small percentage everyone who's listening so it would be nice to Talk to even more of them got some comments on some episodes really a few of them by the hand but some twitter messages some direct messages. But I'm still fairly new and and so it's been really a one or two one or two but those one two felt really good. Yeah exactly and that does remind me that a lot of again. A percentage of the percentage is a people offering to contribute their own time. And so that tells me when they see the project. It's something that they do like that. They feel like something that they'd want to contribute to this very cool and they. I really love projects where the idea is to give an and and this is definitely one so people are giving their time to your project and you're giving information to the public that they might not might not understand if if it was just given to them in their in its raw format so I really love that you're talking about people reaching out to contribute and definitely at the end of this second part. We are going to tell people how to reach you and to to offer their their contribution but this makes me think of Science communication as a whole and of all the students like when we were at McGill at this science communication event. All those graduate researchers were there were interested in science communication And this was really striking to me. I was really happy to see all the the enthusiasm and the energy that was in the room but for people out there who have this interest and a who want to try their hand at writing Maybe could be blogging. It could be editing. Anything related to science communication. Do you have any ideas that you could share with them on how to try their hand and do it at the same time as their. Let's a finishing their PhD or doing their poster. Yeah and I think McGill is actually a good example of this When I started my PhD. I didn't see any anything about science communication. I don't remember seeing it in for example. Email newsletters about conferences or projects that are being offered by either the university or by other students But then towards the end it really picked up and I feel like it is unfortunately in some ways the students who have who have picked up the slack and you have created these opportunities for other students for example a workshop that I attended in my last year of my PhD at McGill was run entirely by undergraduate students But that was a science communication workshop. It was called spell your science and so now. I do see those opportunities advertise much more with a newsletter so I would suggest anyone looking to get into them To kind of scan those newsletters that you get From your program and those opportunities pop up a lot more now there's also and I think more of them are also university sponsored. So the one that we were we met at that was sponsored by B. L. Totally Louisville exactly and so I think universities are finally catching onto the message that this is an alternative type of learning and professional development that students want to participate in offer. Anyone who doesn't have access to that those kinds of resources science twitter is really an amazing way to hear about opportunities. There's a website also called SICOM board that posts opportunities available remotely kind of like useful science that can be participated in online or in person and so I would say to look out for those types of types of things. I just want to take a moment before going on with the interview to let you know that you can help me. And the show by leaving a star rating in a comment on your podcasting APP. She wants to go a step. Further goto patron dot com slash papa. Phd Now and become a supporter for the equivalent of a coffee per month. You'll be helping me immensely with the recurring cost of hosting and producing the show again. Thank you for being a true fan. Great do do look for for resources in university. I do think I just had a conversation Some some time where it was not the this week's episode was less week's episode. Someone who's in Paris and yet universities are picking up that PhD's need to learn other skills need to learn what's the reality in industry and they're starting to offer these discourses these workshops seminars. I think it's it's really great to see that happen and The the thing is students need to still look for what's happening in their university. It's not. It's probably not gonNA pop into their inbox Directly so do look around ask around and and for sure university is going to have something that that might interest you or it could be a editing in a in a university magazine or in a you're talking about student associations it it can there can be no writing and something for a newsletter of Soon Association. There's many ways that people can can try their hand at at writing in at communicating in different in different capacities. That's right and and that's a good point. Sorry to interrupt There are more traditional. I guess you could call traditional ways to to gain experience in writing That would help you insides conclusion. So for example actually Participated on student newspapers. I was a design editor. So I wasn't Typical editor you might think of but I was doing the graphic design the layout But I got to see the process and how it worked And after I also participated in some undergraduate science journals so those are more established kind of groups that have been around for for a long time but those can give you the same kind of skills and maybe even connections to to SICOM path. Eventually excellent agreed totally in like you say the more traditional but they're they're very well the structure that it's it should be fairly easy to find your way there. Now you know looking at your path you. You're not doing a post doc. You you have you imagine you imagine yourself professionally you know in in four or five six years Doing something related to to research. But the question I'd like to ask is you have been developing and cultivating all this science communication side of your activities and and you've learned for sure you have gained skills you have Accrued some some networking. But my question to you is if you project yourself. Five years from now. How do you think or even if you look five years back today? How do you think as a researcher a doing? These things has enriched you and how do you think all all these these skills this time time you have spent on this project how they will resonate what echoes? They will have in the researcher. You'll be a in the future. That's beautiful question exactly thinking back five years ago. I think that when you start doing research you kind of do it Maybe maybe you would choose the project where you feel like you can have some kind of Very obvious benefit on humanity. Especially if you're working with human Like participants were for example cancer research or something where you can really see. Hopefully a short term benefit here research but for in my field The results of my studies will probably not have major impact for for years. Perhaps are we. We don't know it's basic science research and so You're kind of taking a gamble on whether or not the that all that time and energy that you're putting on it is really going to end up having the impact that you hope it will and I guess by having these other opportunities or these other ways to interact with science into kind of engage with it and also discuss it with others and putting yourself more in that idea of how science effect the public the public interact with it. Lets you see other sides of the bigger picture and the skills that you learned as a researcher. Even if you're doing basic research skills you learn include analysis of texts of scientific articles knowing how to read the article and Parse it knowing how to look into the statistics And those skills apply to any field so I always tell our contributors I. It doesn't matter that you're not an expert in the paper that you're reading. You are an expert in In reading papers and you'll be able to apply that knowledge to pull out the the bottom line from the papers and that's what we do All the time and so. I think that that has kind of translated and has stayed with me throughout the process and one one feeling that I get is that and you kind of alluded to it but Seeing it from another side is that people who are inside com enjoy or take take pleasure or take satisfaction in giving back something directly to the community around them To to the people on the street. And if you're doing research and thinking thinking maybe more in the past we in the twenty twentieth century and being researcher. Today's something that's changing it. I'd say in a lot has to do with communication in my opinion but I think one thing that may be very enriching for for someone like you is the fact that yes. You're doing your research. It may have impact on later on. But this thing that you're doing is is Having impact on people right away today when they read the article when they reviewed the article. So I I feel that there's a social responsibility aspect there and also a feeling of community with people around you who are not researchers. Would you say there's something like that in for you to absolutely and that's the hope and you can't see me right now but I was the whole thing happen excellent so I was just talking about the twenty first century researcher. And it's funny because this makes me think of things that are completely different like the citizen scientists which is which is a very interesting movement to me. But I don't think we have time to go into that. But now for people who are now in their in their post doc. I think it's a great time and now there may be at home. You know cutting confinement to reflect on what type of scientists am I going to be and how am I going to be the best person? Just the best person in today's society as a scientist and maybe eventually as a communicator of science and I think what we've been talking about useful science and these few minutes that we just talked To me at least make me. Imagine the the role of the scientists more and more as someone that's hand-in-hand with with people on the streets versus that Very old idea of ivory tower Blah Blah Blah Blah. Which which. I think he's posse today or at least I hope I'm Murray's I think now's the time maybe to ask you the of final question which is thinking about this of all. You've gone through so far into in terms of You know going through a PhD. Now starting a post doc in a new country new city Having your projects what two or three pieces of advice would you have for people who are finishing or just starting post to and who wants to be can kind of a new kind of researcher and you kind of scientists that is more in tune with with today And and with this new tendency of of being more in touch with with the with the streets with mainstream I do think reflecting on when we started. The website for example is just the first thing that came to mind. It does feel like now the stakes feel higher in a way There been Reminders of how important the work of scientists is to to the whole world so global warming on this pandemic and it almost feels like this has highlighted at least for me the responsibility that you have as a scientist to to try to go that extra effort to as you said Be Able to communicate with with almost anyone on on the street or someone that you meet And so not. Everyone has to do it. Not every scientist has to be the best communicator to the public. But if at least a fraction of us Try to try to do so. And try to develop those skills than it could make a difference in help us in those conversations that we happen to have With our family or friends or even on the bus with some being too And so one way to do that is by trying to develop these skills. The skills of science communication maybe through attending online workshop or in person workshop were reading a bit about it or practicing by becoming a volunteer organizations. I think all of it could in some make make a big difference on how people perceive scientists both in their community and the ones that they see on TV when they have to listen to them in the media Will you're talking about McGill Few months ago. And there's different events that you can take part in in volunteer during the year like brain awareness. Week brain reach things like that. If you have things like that around you do do participate in it. You'll meet like minded people. You'll you'll get in touch with students often. It's going to be elementary school students. That's total different adventure at explaining science to them. So I agree with you. One hundred percent Maurice. Now just as we're closing the episode. We mentioned a bunch of times that people can contribute to useful science dot ORG. Can you share with the audience? How they can reach out and how they can offer to contribute to to you know in their specific domain of research of expertise. Yeah I would love to So again you can find out more about us at our website. That's useful signs dot Org. You can reach us on twitter at useful side you can eat. Ls Hello at useful science dot. Org and we really are looking for contributors with any level of experience as you have a graduate Started Graduate School. We kind of expect that you already know how to Parse a scientific paper But then regardless of any other experience in science communication our doors are open and we want to be a place where you feel like you can start that journey and kind of see if this is something that you're interested in and so yeah please feel free to reach out and you can also reach me directly on twitter At Murray's a R. Y. S. e. He Thomas Excellence. Murray's I will put. I'll put those links in the show notes So people can Can Go and click directly. Thank you so much for having me. Non Papa PG I wish you all the best for your your post doc but also for for your science communication projects and I hope people will listen to the episode. It'll be inspired Get some ideas or maybe just some encouragement to start their blog. Or maybe maybe in their podcasts. Who knows I hope so too? Thank you so much for having me again. Thank you if you enjoyed the insights shared on the show each week and would like to dig deeper into some of the subjects covered. You can now join the peachy postgraduate career exploration group on facebook there you will find like minded listeners but also a few of the guests will be taking part in the conversation so to start a conversation just go to facebook. Dot Com for Slash Papa. Phd joined the show has helped you in any way and you'd like to contribute trying to pop a PhD patriotic Patriot. Dot Com for Sash Papa peachy and become a monthly supporter. Do helped me continue to interview interesting guests and to bring you stories that will help you in your career journey. Thanks for listening to another episode of the Peach. Podcast head over to pop each dot com for show notes for more food for thought about non-academic Post Grad careers always be happy to share inspiring stories new ideas in useful resources. Here on the PODCAST. So make sure you subscribe on Itunes or wherever you get your podcasts to always keep up the discussion and to hear from our latest guests.

twitter scientist researcher McGill editor Grad school director Maurice Thomas PhD Murray Europe Marie Thomas David Mendez SICOM Abbott Mary facebook Marissa Leah
Rebranding the PhD with Chris Humphrey

Papa Phd Podcast

52:32 min | 1 year ago

Rebranding the PhD with Chris Humphrey

"Hi David. Welcome to season two of Papa PhD to kickstart the second season of interviews. I'm bringing you someone who's been helping researchers figure out their careers for a while now, and who will be recounting how he navigated his transition and how he got to the position. He's in today. But before we go into the interview I, want to quickly share with you what new features you'll be noticing starting today on Papa PhD. The first big change is that the interviews are now going to be shorter around forty minutes and they'll will be published as a single episode on Thursdays. Second you see that I'll be spending more time discussing what my guests do today and what advice they have for you and you'll see. The more we go into the interview, the more value find. So be sure to stick around till the end. And finally, every episode I will have short section at the end where I'll be sharing trails of podcasts I. Think you'll enjoy and that are friends of the show. I hope you enjoy the new format. So without further ADO, here's episode one of the Second Season of Papa. Peachy. Took in the UK. Fifty percent of PhD's Austin and academia three and a half years after they graduate. Busy doing research woke still post some people are doing teaching lecturing and some some are in positions awful. Pitch Dis will be working outside of academia. When you tell that especially like first and second year PhD's they couldn't believe it. It's like mind blowing. You know even when I talk to people and they introduce myself have got PhD and they say. Working oxford-cambridge paged that must be what should have been doing. Welcome to Papa PhD with David. Mendez the podcast where we explore careers in life after Grad, school with guests who have walked the road less traveled and have unique stories to tell about how they made their place in world of constantly evolving rules. Get ready to go off the beaten path and Huchon for an exciting new episode of the PhD. So today on Bob. Peachy I, have with me. Dr, Kris, Humphry. Kris Humphry is a project manager and careers consultant and the founder of the popular careers website jobs on toast. He holds a B A in English studies and an MA in culture and social change both from the University of Southampton. He completed his PhD in Medieval Studies at the University of York in Nineteen Ninety seven and held a postdoctoral fellowship until two thousand. Since, leaving academia Chris has worked as a project and program manager in the private sector specializing in technology transport, financial services, and sustainability. Today he works as a team leader and project manager for a leading European, sustainable. Bank. Chris is passionate about helping people with their careers and Personal Development He has given numerous career stocks at universities in the UK, Ireland Australia and the US. and has taken part in life. Events on the Guardian's website and for jobs dot CO DOT UK amongst numerous other contributions. In Twenty, twelve, Chris founded the website jobs on toast as a way to help masters, students, doctoral graduates, access the abundant opportunities available outside of. Higher. Education. In our long conversation Chris shared his academic journey all the way to the Post Doc. In today's episode I'm sharing with you what came after how and why he started his career outside academia. Welcome to Peachy Chris. Well thank you. David, for inviting me for having me on. I'm really happy to have you here especially given the years of experience you have helping people with masters and Ph ds like just mentioned finding their path and I think a word. That I think is really important is in the abundant number of career opportunities that are out there I think this one key thing that that people are going to. Wealth people need to understand to kind of break this this feeling that they may be failing at life or at least at the their professional life if the. End Up leaving academia after after graduate. School. Yeah it is. It is. So hard to describe when you see the light bulb come on somebody's head in new. People people just say. It. Yeah. And it. It is. What always of joys me on like just when somebody says down they felt or how lost or how they didn't know what to do, and then they say that you I when you're okay now I just. Found the way forward or hope or something you know you just why would why would have stopped? Doing what I'm doing I mean because that's the greatest thing you can do. Even if you change one person's mind or sometimes I talk to one hundred people you know I think if I could. Difference that many people but not like yourself day job what you're doing on your the more that can do it that more intense. We can have and we can reach more people in our own countries or in different languages. or different backgrounds. So yeah, it's it's cool to fail that there's more there's more of us than. Doing this doing this thing. You don't just listen think about being a PhD that just you just have this unique. Bonding Experience With With with anybody else like I just met you but you know it just. It's strange. We everyone knows what they went through, and then just you can just click with people and. It's powerful as powerful stuff. So as I mentioned, we talked before about Chris's PhD and you can find our full one hour and a half conversation on the Papaya she youtube channel. We eventually also talked about what led up to his post doc. Chris. Was Now considering after his post doc and after the his after applying to some lecturing positions and not having the materialize thinking. Okay. What am I going to do an end looking at the non-academic landscape and seeing where he was going to fit? How did you go about that? Were there appears around you who were also having that reflection. How. Was that process? How easy was that process or not easy? I was that that. Exploration. Let's say. He is kind of mixed because I think on the one hand. As I kept getting rejections from the academic jobs, Kinda go to feeling of. Like feeling of running out of time or this is this isn't going well. If I could just get academic job everything would be. Okay. So that was like a downside to it but on the other hand you know. I was really excited by the things that I was saying around me like like the Internet was something that was just really taking off in the late ninety s and I was just fascinated by the internet and this whole and. I mean I. I say Democratic Dissemination of information which is. Not. Disney triple the time easily, but the way. To access to information or study or learning the United. States can be quite elitist or privileged or and causal money and time, but just like the idea that. The anybody can just access any type of information videos and things as well. It was coming along time and could learn anything. They had the Internet connection did just Exchange. My view of the world and so excited me as an educator and as a scholar, this potential and always really enthused by that and could see this trans transformative potential of it and so that's when I kind of thought. Well, this could be an area where. You I would be happy and excited to work in, and then I had to try and figure out. Well, how do I get to that from medieval studies? kind of like the opposite. Of this new of this new techy technological thing. But then I figured out. There was this area of e e learning with a training where people were taking courses that which Clause three more even vote on a CD. You know we're not making it to the web and I just thought is dies That's what I'm GONNA do. I really had to look. For jobs and companies. looked. Learning companies read white papers and things are. Looking googling jobs, you know learning jobs based training and I saw that they were these jobs out Aaron. Didn't necessarily know how to do them. I felt confident that if I applied job I reckon I could I could do that and so that was my plan B. Really that. Stuff didn't work out then come at the end of my funding. This was going to be. and. Again, we're we're around you also having the same questions or were you were you on your own in this in this exploration and career exploration this new domain? Yeah I think most of my peers were they will get it. They were applying for academic jobs and getting academic jobs. So I think that was one of the one of the challenges although some. Maybe. Because it was one. Of Us. Were there's only there's any sort of doesn't also people so actually. Making some of the years below they people were interested in. Join the civil service you know they weren't GonNa go into the academic GonNa. Go enjoying governments during the government or maybe they were more interested in administrative positions in universities. Like cabin. Like Alumni Association publicity. Officer, Ot side like computing and that type of thing. So I think some people were kind of there was a broad mix I. didn't. It was I wasn't alone a unique in that respect. Yeah. But you you're talking about googling at that today, we have it on on our phones you know at the time it was not as. It was not as widespread and it was the experience was not the same as it was today but. My question is how how was it to try and contact because you mentioned the imagine eventually you had to contact people he had to apply for positions but. How easy was it and how did you go about You know getting to the interview that or the interviews that led you to your first job after your post. Doc. Think did apply for jobs that were in universities I that seem to be a good fit, and then I was looking at these kind of private companies as well. Trying to think, think it was moan- something like a monster. Quedo. Joe Joe Boorda's it wasn't where I saw this job in this leading company down in South East of England. So long way away from where I lived. Just, any landings startup company and I just I. Sent my CV to them. And Yeah got. Response by come down, come down for to be so. The thing is I never I never actually did any of the things I advise to do like Like networking or this type of stuff you know inflammation interviews with things I tell people to do I actually did not any of that I did I did the research into the industry I did that but I had no network I had no and so. But. It didn't know I didn't know. Then that's what you needed to do I was. Just kind of going kind of. Discovering as I went yeah. Yeah. So that so this interview did lead to your first position would did you get it at that time? Yes I went for my first interview I went down to. To south east of England just outside London and had an interview and. With the with the guy he was going to be my manager after. About twenty minutes of talking he said Oh. Let's just in the chief executive had been now. They came in and then they said Yeah we just WANNA. Offer you the job you know. Y. Considering I didn't know how to do it. You know but stay where they were. They were a startup. So they had a lot of techie kind of people who could build software that would deliver a cool. They didn't have anybody very much educational. He could you how to structure information. Villainous. Yeah and so they would just you know they will king King signed signed me up and Know we talked about salary and that type of thing and yeah. Basically had to yeah. Just call my wife and say Yeah I was going. To propose would-be which new down to the southeast. England. So it was it was it was quite a change for us, but it was for me I was so excited because. I didn't want to finish my post doc funding piece. It does seem very negative view, but like stuck in stuck in York, teaching part time waiting for something to come up with just. Didn't happen and I really. Relieved as well to have something positive and and energizing to kind of take me forward something modern a real opportunity and they were trusting you to fill to fill this position and I guess you dove into it and you learn to whatever you need to learn. I imagine with no in a hands on approach to be with the team around you but. The question I have is, so what were you bringing to the table? Apart from you had been in academia violent and so teaching learning something that you had bathed in for a long time but specifically giving given the this was now okay. kind of a software it was a sufferer startup. How we know what do you think? The interview was the thing that they that they They looked at you and said, okay, this is this is the guy who's going to fill this position. The the best. The best thing I did was I kind of did a pitch, the pitcher and I said. It's funny when I say this now because it's so we do this every day but I said like my vision is ten. One day like. If if you've got a problem with the spark plugs on your car, you know. You will be able to get your phone or computer watch video about how to change the spark plugs, and then you'll go to the shop buy them, and then you're do uplift on it up and you'll you'll do not yourself and this the Internet makes it possible for people to learn and do things themselves and they was brilliant they just they absolutely enough that and it's so funny when I tell the story now because like what my kids do like isn't that everyone does not in it. In that time. That was that was and then I don't mean to sound like I'm bragging boasting anything saying like Hey I'm the visionary or something, but that's just. Ahead logical extension of what was happening I saw that potential but what I was trying to do to. See it from the customer's point of view and I. think that's the thing what they didn't want to do is just like hire some theory educational theory guy who relate to that end user customer I think this'll vision is set for them was like his end user and here's what they'll buy or here's what they're gonNa do with what you're making. I think that's something that really. Help them. No I was kind of. Customer centric persons use the kind of. Walk the the jargon or what we look for in business. You know we look for people who come from the customer's point of view. So I think it was good. It was and had no had no I didn't deliberately do that. I just kind of tried to be. Transparent and passionate as possible about what the tension for this technology was. But I think that was what made the difference. Showing some creativity and showing that because. I don't know how much had. You told me that you had studied the industry and and really looked into what was out there. But it also show that you kind of knew what their mission was and. Then projected into the future for sure there was there must have made an impression in the hires you I really want to Iran given all your experience talk about you know your experience talking to students and and and and giving them advice. Even though you said that at the time, you didn't follow the advisor to give out but maybe later on in in the interview, but I'm still interested in knowing Because this is very different from what you were setting out to do while you were applying for electric. Electric positions right. Who you must have had. Not Maybe I should say you must have had but. was there some sort of like morning for your academic career that you had to go through mourning process? of saying okay well. I. Went All as far as I could. This is not a materializing and and I'm going to turn a page was that an easy process to you. Or? was. It was some some little pain there from from kind of leaving academia how how was how was that and I mentioned that once you've got this position you probably forgot about of that you were excited about this new thing but still this transition and this this because we were also there's a community that kind of leaving and eventually you even moving from from the city you were for a while. Yeah Kit some is interesting because I think. So excited energized by this new opportunity that that just kind of like carry carried me three allowed the stuff. Because as you can imagine, you know in that final year my post, there was a lot of. Pressure on this whole thing about what are you going to do next away you've expectation and responsibility as a as a father as a husband and. Put up for myself by myself. But nonetheless, it was Kinda way heavy on me I guess and then it was really energized by this new opportunity. So I, think I think I always had the ambition in academia go as far as I can and I think that's when I look back on it. That was my ambition. I'm going to go as far as I can and actually when I look. Back I did I did go as far as. You know. It wasn't it I didn't. If I didn't have the aspiration to be professor like from day one if you. I saw as A. A fantastic opportunities do PhD funded to do post funded in people to give me money. For me to produce research, high quality, research know and and so. I. Kind of mournful like I never wish I could've been lecturing if you know what I mean I. was I was I was grateful GNC had a fantastic experience There was troubles near the end because it was. But it wasn't so much. I think I will say publish. Thesis a book. So I kind of felt like everything I kind of wrapped it up and it was a neat package really and I could leave that. You know that was the book and now I'm going to go into another chapter of my life and. I think he was a little bit maybe dealing with other people's expectations. Sometimes I wait until kept conferences after I left academia Going some conferences would go and see people when they would so to say, oh I'm sure something will turn up Chris and they were trying to be kind of sympathetic and it was it was kind of jarring because it was Kinda like well. You know things that goofy me so. Those things to deal with? It other people's expectations maybe as much as as much as anything. You kind of touched on the the point where I wanted to get, which is, I feel and interacting with people out there that there's there's a lot of this idea that if you leave -demia you're failing somehow and you're not. You're just changing another. You're changing pats and you're going to bring with you. Your quiver full of. Different. You know different skills and abilities that you ain't to use somewhere else. In something else in they're going to excel at but that was my point. So my where I Wanted to get his. Well the there can be an myself. You know when when you, there's an institute, there's people there's a community that you kind of go away from. There's there's always a little bit of maybe sadness there. But professionally, and in terms of the big picture of your of Your Life, you'd just you know you just pivoting and doing something else it's not. People shouldn't be afraid of of whatever's outside academia. There's a lot of things out there exciting stimulating and fulfilling. Yeah. Exactly. Right. Because it's it's is easy to stick with what you know. But when you look at it you you can't stay in it forever because you need you need you need you need. Money to live. And you need a direction Tyson, you need to feel fulfilled and that's the risk that people hang hang around in the environment because that's that's where I. Really WanNA help people especially if they you know junked tangled doing something where they're very low pay but they filled out so that they can do and it isn't but it's Yeah. It's interesting is mixed. Mixed emotions and I think it probably, it took a long time. I didn't have a lot probably ten years. I didn't have a lot to do with academia joy lashed gradually resolve wound things down, and then I was I was in embracing his whole new world of in Business and project management and sustainability. So I had a lot of. Exciting things and passions didn't really sort of more than what I'd left behind because I was really stimulated by what I was doing next year and you were growing on on the you're growing this whole other side of of a few of your abilities and of your know for sure. So you just mentioned project management sustainability. So how? How did that before we talk as I really want to talk about things to do with with you know finding a career after you reach the end based on all the you have but still on your journey, how was this transition into project management and now sustainability? How did you navigate that and? Also what's do you think? From up st in terms of skills what you think allowed you to go into these domains. Accident. So I was working at the learning company for about two two years and then one day the my boss came in everyday that he would normally say. Oh Good Morning Chris and I was Good Morning Nigel and he said I see Chris. Not Good Day today because the venture capitalists who are funding, US withdraw funding they're not going to fund US anymore. So you you've lost your job today now. We're GONNA have to close the company So that's it. So it was quite a shock could blow to me of having. Made. This jump related family and everything like that. Yeah just lose my job and not even have any notes. You know like a notice period where you'd be paid literally didn't get paid for that month's work even so It was a media, the ring, my wife, and say I'm just lost my job. Because the company Gone Bust there's no. Nominee to get made redundant. You get a notice period or more pale for something like that. But. We didn't even get paid for that month's work. So it was quite quite a blow and. And the thing to happen and but you know I. Love. This is one of the ways. That their soreness of repurposing myself to get a career outside academia is like, okay I already did this once and It can't be as. Bad as that because I've experienced but then I was a bit like well, how much experience have I really go. The other thing will say that we were leaving we were leaving house we decided to relocate to the South West of England. So a complicated financing was that we were actually. Thing. As. Well. So not didn't help but some. Yeah. Just through talking just people and Ashley was connection of my Dad he knew a consultant and he knew he knew and managing director of a company that might have a possibility. Yes. So I Sent my CV to them and they had the agency for somebody to. Trainer and technical? That included quite fit in quite well with the sort of e learning stuff on the end sort of teaching training background and the writing. So Yeah Java Dent working on. Is Will you probably know what you've probably seen them, but it's like you know at on on bus stops you have the assignment tells you countdown wins the bus GonNa come yes. Like in five minutes in three minutes, the buses Jew. So it was a company that made software. So the bus talks to the bus stop and that was job with I didn't know anything about this stuff. I would end up going into bus stations train bus joy. Right manuals this type of stuff. So yeah, it was a good. It was a good sorta them. First step for me to get another job and then so to start to start to rebuild my career. Okay this makes me think of something. They're also mention often which is. Give yourself a chance to or don't try to don't aim to find the dream job right away. Gives. The chance to Go with what works at the moment or the best if possible in whatever's in your horizon and then you'll build up experience and eventually next time you change. Then you're going to kind of level up to something that's closer to maybe what your dream dream job is. So here you were in domain that had. Was really you know far departed from whatever you had done before and And they're very different in the direction you were having and even in the mission, let's say of and you went and I imagine that you you gain with that experience. Yeah because I I've been there for a short time and then they. The managing director also me to do a little research project to make a recommendation about how they should. A structure, the business because. Of that the business was taking of a data about public transports like buses and trains and crunching it altogether say that then be used a websites where people go in search and we're so used to doing it now it's not flattens but this is in the early part two thousand. Yeah. People would actually bring up a coup and say, yeah, I'm in this town I want to go to that town. Can you work out with journey by bus and then they would put it into some software and intelligent the journey. Just want to tell my kids is like. Ring up someone and ask this information. But this is this is what we did. Yeah and the two thousand, and so we would really this company has some contracts to gather this information for about forty for nearly half of the UK actually and put it into these different regional national websites. So I actually made a recommendation about how this could be structured, and then they direct managing director said, do you want to run it? Then be the manager of this department so I couldn't really say no. So I said Yeah Okay I'll do that and I two people working for me and that holy to computers and we have to send out CDs every week to use different cool centers United. Was Yes had to burn CDs and put them in the post. This is so funny when you look back because. I've never done that, but it was just the confidence that I can see I can see how this could be done, and as long as you can you have the confidence in your ability and you can also assure the people that. You'RE GONNA give your best shot and keep communicating with them, and if things go wrong, be honest and ask for help you know. Achieve I. Think you're always GONNA get supported. So that was my real. Luxu- land on my feet are actually kind of you know. Go to go to management position within within a software company. Decent average civility. Did you hear that. With all the abilities and skills you've developed so far a lot of what ends up differentiating you in pushing you forward in terms of your career has to do with the attitude with which you face challenges you presented with. His self confidence honesty and open communication were key for Chris in advancing into a managerial position of more responsibility at this stage. In the second part of our conversation, Chris? Dan went on to talk a little bit more about this idea of starting lower in an organization to climb the rungs faster as. Once you've shown your colors and taken on a few challenging projects. Yeah. No and again, another interesting thing is once you get into a position that's maybe. Lower than you expected if you if you prove your capacity and you get involved on projects that are maybe a little bit on the side of of what your job description is, you're going to be noticed and you can evolve within the company. It's also it's also something that that no, you don't know when you're coming out of a peach or does that that businesses work like this you you can evolve you can. Grow within an organization. Yeah I think that's a really good point because. Kadena it doesn't. It's a very linear hierarchy. Slow progression. But actually in companies and organizations, you know they they especially, if they're small that quite flat and if you're sometimes you have to go lower to go higher. That's one of the things I say might feel like was have ever step down because at this very prestigious research fellowship at this talk university and now. I of my doing working for this software company out in the middle of out in the middle of nowhere. But actually when you you take the plunge, you learn absorb and then you get recognized within the company and then the next step for me is that. After author and a couple of years I realized that knowledge on. Howard. was quite extremely valuable and that's when I was starting to look for a job as a consultant because I realized. I could. I could. An. Law Money. And we have some new challenges by just if somebody I was hired me out as a consultant. So that's really my next step to get hide. Is it as a transport consultant on? Yeah that's what I did next. and. So then then eventually You you went also into project management And This even in the bank working today that's how he started. Right? Did you go get training for project management or did things? Did you organically through your experience grow towards towards those positions? It was really also. A sense of? Arrogance that I could do it. Other people. To Software Company, and then we need we took on new contracts people had to manage. I'm GONNA give this data to the despite the government or something like that, and just looking at it and seeing how other people were doing it and just thinking you know I I could do this is not my job but like do this better more structured I would. Talk to the stakeholders better and run it better and so then I. Took on some responsibilities and then joined the consultancy. I was actually a project manager for higher type of thing. So then A. Consultancy hired me out to welcome projects mainly European. Commission funded transport projects. So yeah. That's when I was. I was for three years. I was the manager of. Research Project. Into congestion charging benefits, the benefits of introducing congestion charging in cities how much does it reduce congestion pollution? What can you do with the money and I run a big research project on that which is it was good because it was my research background but it was also I was hired out by the company to to the European Commission to manage that project. I was good. I Love International, travel. I didn't have any training in it was just. To me just. Sort of comes naturally I think it will say from the PhD just like giving from something. That's an idea to a methodist clergy to a plan to the delivery of the plans, the conclusion, the handover about things that the customer, the end user it just that's what a PhD. Writing an article something isn't it's just Yeah and that's one of the big. Transferable skills transfer all set of skills what you just said one of the big transferable set of skills that PhD's maybe are not conscious that they did. They come with after the that they do have and that they can use in whichever industry they desire because a again often you'll have to prove yourself to the organization because P people won't. Right away pitch put you in a management position. Come you know coming out of academia in and for many reasons because you hadn't proven herself in the industry, but quickly PhD can get into a position start proving proving himself or herself, and eventually access these these managers, these product management positions of high responsibility because they have the capacity to analyze crunch data. You know put build projects from scratch and then deliver and I think it's It's something that listeners out there that are could they're thinking? Employable after you might. You are. Talking definitely. Front project management is it's such a massive growth industry i. mean I never yeah. When I was at school university I never really knew much about it but you a change as Kinda cliche changes the constant now but when you look at rate of change the pace of change in our society. And who is who is the he was with the people managing those changes that project managers, and it could be like the could be the Olympics or it could be. Election candidate or it could be the upgrade on your phone every time something changes or was a big event or something project managers have to sit down with a blank sheet of paper and work out and it's it's it's really to me to feel part of that that community. Project managers and see I guess eventually that's how my professional identity is solidified whereas it was originally. So it's like a research. Will maybe he know what kind of? Education learning specialists have been tech companies but really might. Might federal agencies solidified around and project manager or even now it called sort of chain manages because is becoming less the case. Okay. Change Managers Yeah because the case that. There's a distinction between light run run the bank change the bank is you can talk about with banks. So in the old days, banks mainly run the bank most of the banking was the same, and then maybe some department introduced some new thing every so often but the now the. Road is still important power what banks do obviously running day to day operations but. There's so much change any time you know anything about banking on your phone. And all these sorts of services that th the changed the bank functions is become much bigger. It's not an occasional thing happens every so often, but it's a constant. Yeah. All the time you know and you you you can't stop like we think about your phone you can you com- you can't stop having updates. which my phone would just stand still willingness doesn't it? It keeps it keeps changing and that's really what's exciting to me is when is When is how do you manage continuous? How do you manage continuous change? Yeah. It's interesting and it's really we notice it on on your phone banking is definitely one of them and now imagine with crypto currencies getting more and more importance I. Anyway. I don't think we're going to go into that but. I find it very interesting from what from what you said, the used the term solidify my my professional identity solidified around this this activity that I developed but. What one thing I find interesting interesting is don't be afraid of. Not Knowing what you're going to become when you when you leave because that's going to materialize with time and again because you you probably want, you may be lucky and have very good networking and start right away with the job that you adore and that you're going to stick. With life, but it's not it's not a given. So I think that's that's a very, very interesting interesting thing and he goes what I said before. Give yourself time to slowly get to where you WANNA get right. But yeah. One thing. We're reaching the end I am kind of annoyed that. We're we're my time is almost ending for this. For the interview but so. Along with all of the at a certain point, you decided in two thousand twelve to start something to give back to the community you had come from in a way, the students the PGA soon as the Masters Students, which is jobs on toast and. You know you've spent all these years kind of. The mission that I have kind of taken for myself of helping people out there who are doing their master's were doing their PC or post stock. And who are in doubt about what is my future? What's my professional future? Let's just like to talk a couple of minutes about jobs on those about what your experience has been maybe changes you've seen in the in the in the in the latest years because things are changing. The. Ender. Maybe finish by sharing two or three pieces of advice for people out there who may be anxious about not really knowing what they're professional future will look like if or when they. Ended up leaving academia. Yeah I mean I guess. Is Interesting John came about like. Deputies. Way. I was invited by my dissertation advisor to go up to your thousand nine to give it a little seminar on the on the topic I was invited. It was like how to market yourself careers outside of academia pick and. Jeremy asked to go up and could you dislike took on this subject for narrow so we'd be pleased to how you never really thought about it. So I went to do that and gave that talk and. You know it was just really it without sort of blame trumpet as such. The impact it made on the people here in not room and the change in. Demeanor and how these spoke to me and they spoke afterwards was. It just like it just showed to me that there was there was a need I never really thought of our densify that this information was really helpful beyond in the room. But so I just thought, well, how could this information get to a wider audience because really at that time it was not anything else and I, think that's toll PhD may have being around and. So but then I really determined how could I get some of this information what I've just said? The Internet, you know if I could just make a website disseminates it. and. Maybe. Go Talk other universities so that's when I It took me a long time because it took me until two thousand twelve actually to figure out blogging and how to make a website and I was busy with my job and my family and everything. was always a project. Yeah. But I Lord Scienc- thousand twelve and just really kind of built up tried to have an ambition of light. Once every two months rising something. Going trying to give talks and then reflecting on my experiences of that and writing about that so. Yes in the beginning it was really trying to find the way and it was linking up with some other people as well like like Jenn poke I'm from from Canada and the other days from PhD to life just trying to find other people Hainkel from cheeky scientists on the same kind of mission and so yeah that's like in different countries but it was but he was very, it was very early days but. I mean it's interesting now because I, kind of feel like their staff loss of people who who joined in from different countries. Yeah. Like yourself David just really it's really exciting to me that. What will I started over a couple of started off is really great into a bit more of a movement and. Also to see the impact on universities that is not son. Often thought you know really that, hey, maybe one year we should think about talking to the PhD's about other careers but actually some universities a building into their actual graduate training careers, advice and careers outside of academia. That's what excites me is that. In ten years, we've actually built with into A. INTO THAT It is a, it is changing and. Some. A lot of the people you mentioned are still. There in in helping a lot of people the things that have changed lately. In terms of. Spreading the message our twitter. Social, in general podcasting for sure is is is something that that has brought a different. Reach. Andrea but but. What I find interesting in the conscious I've had a at universities is i. feel that even universities now are. Getting the message that that. They need to prepare the students for this reality of not everyone can become a professor and it's it's as simple as that not not everyone apart from not everyone just a small percentage of people have and I think even now with with all this, the the the problem with covert and and with the pandemic, the closing up of of universities all of that is even getting more access to those positions is getting even more more difficult. At this time. Yes. So I mean, typically the UK something. Like fifty percent if PhD's Austin academia three and a half years after they graduate and so yeah. With a bit of a split of. some some deeper obviously doing research work still. Stuck some people are doing teaching lecturing, but probably half of will pay. Something, somewhere in administrative positions. Awful pasties will be working outside of academia. When you tell that to especially like first and second year Steve's they, they can't believe it. It's mind blowing and. Even even when I talk to people about. People and they introduce myself southbound PhD or something, and they say, what? What are you working Oxford Cambridge you've got to pay. That must be what you should help in doing and it's it's. It's it's interesting this powerful expectation, but it's trying to educate people really about. coolest. Sometimes, like career consciousness developing conscious beyond just just wha- who's around you. But actually this whiter this way to picture when you tell people the statistics I think. That that is real sort of netter them. Because the important thing and. Busting the time but is this doesn't mean? Stop. And go do something else doing up she is something that's going to this to a lot of value to your to you as a person. To you as a contributor to society later on just don't. Just expect that. It's not a given that you're going to end up being professor but like you said, you can say India all act college, right? The alternative academic career paths that are out there. There's a lot of things you can do in around the university but then. The. The job market out there needs sometimes the in I. It's funny. I'd love I'd love to have your input on that maybe another conversation. Industry doesn't know they need pc's but they do and when the interview these people they're like okay. Oh, this is actually a very good candidate I'm going to take them. GonNa take them in. It is interesting because PhD's like we need. We need like a branding agency got something. Totally. I think in some ways, what I've been trying to do with jobs on taste really is elevate is like how do you? How do you rebrand the PhD? Some the? Different to the people who are doing it, and so people outside I think it's very hard. It's very hard. Job Employers it's kind of it's going to. It's kind of impossible but I think we have done a good job and I say things in the media now, which I would never have seen about about as being light multi skilled and flexible knowledge workers who can kind of what we were saying they switch from project to project. What we are capabilities very much fit the kind of. The the job market of today I think as long as we can. We've. PhD's can make the. League employers can also drop center that prejudice is a as well definitely the the. Love imaginative leap because. You picture yourself in that position, allow yourself to picture yourself in that position and then go talk to the people. The things you said he didn't didn't do per se but but go go. Find people around you who know someone who does that job that interests you they'll be happy to and know especially if they have a PhD to, it'll be happy to take time to take coffee to have lunch with you share their story and maybe point point you towards something that might interest you. Chris Yeah, we really have reached the end of our time. If. People want to want to reach out to you want to You know a C-, whatever you you've been writing lately. How where can I reach you? Why can they reach you online? What's the best way to to be up to date with the with with what you've? Up to The faces to go to jobs on toast DOT COM. Nastase. My my website were probably published an article every every two months but Yeah you can say I'm on twitter so that's just Job On toast So yeah, I'm. Trying, keep up a putting out content on twitter by sharing content, but it was sharing some of the best. Stuff. RAPE HD careers. As well, so yeah, there's places where you can where you can find the excellent Chris. Thank you so much for for having a to come to the microphone and chat with me a definitely I would have talked. A full other our. Because this we know there's so much talk about. Who knows if we can if you can have another conversation maybe on a specific theme I, I'd love to but thank you I i. it's really an inspiring path the to the to have a an inspiring journey that you've had and to me it's especially inspiring that you you take time. To apart from your professional life family life, keep trying to bring this message to people in graduate school out there that there's A. Whole Universe of things out there that they can do after graduating and that they will be fulfilled at doing and and you intellectually stimulated and part of. A productive part of society and? I think that's very precious and it's very noble. My statement weren't enjoyed talking to you. Thanks for inviting me on. High again. I, hope you enjoyed the conversation and that you took at least one take home message from it. If you did make sure to subscribe on your podcast APP and to share Papa Peachy with your friends. I'm sure they are asking themselves the same questions in that they will enjoy it too. Before, ending the road, let me introduce you to podcasts that you might also enjoy. Plants by pets a podcast about plants in about the research around them. And the lonely pipette. Sounds like we have a team going this week. The brand podcast aiming to help scientists do better science and roll the tape. Delay Plan. Like really really likes them. Do you wish you could get a glimpse at how they work on the inside, how a growth flower avoid problems like rotting meat and how they defend themselves against the tax. Too. That's why we applied to pets explore the fascinating to know workings of Balaji in our podcast and on our blog. Know that bumblebees can control the flowering time of by gently watching on them or that soap bubbles are grateful plant pollination. We are Teagan and your to plant scientists with allowed bring you the hot near reset without all the scientific jog. Lost, we talk about topics, diversity and equality academic system. And Brings Fun Science Bachelor last week, and we talk about cuts and sometimes also we rent. You can read our stuff on plants and pets dot com also for plants and for pets in your favorite podcast. APP. Floods of events, we talked plant science. Working in research trained to do the best science you can. You A team leader, a Research Assistant Post Doc, PhD student, or any other type of scientists are you looking for a place where you can sit relax and listen to inspiring people? Well. We have good news for you. You've just found what you're looking. Hi Everybody May name is GonNa Pool and I am Jonathan. Whites? Welcome to the. Helping scientists. And that's it for this first episode of season two. I hope you enjoyed it and that you'll be taking some of the pearls of wisdom we shared with you on your journey. Thank you and have a great week. Thanks for listening to another episode of the Papa Peach podcast. Head over to pop each dot com for show notes in for more food for thought about non-academic post. Grad careers. I'll always be happy to share inspiring stories new ideas useful resources here on the podcast so make sure you subscribe on Itunes or wherever you get guests to always keep up with the discussion and to hear from our latest guests.

Chris Yeah PhD the learning company project manager Papa PhD UK consultant David University of Southampton twitter Papa PhD University of York Bob team leader England Guardian professor