5 Episode results for "Pakistan Gaston"
The Truth About the U.S. War in Afghanistan
"From foreign policy. I'm Sarah Waldman and this is first person this week. The truth about the war in Afghanistan earlier this month. The Washington Post published a trove of official documents that suggests successive. US administrations misled the public about the war Afghanistan. There hasn't been a lot of progress since two thousand one after all girls are back in school in pursuit of our Corrigo. We we are seeing significant. Progress made tremendous progress. The papers were part of an internal review conducted by the US government. They included candid interviews news with both officials and generals who helped prosecute the war one of the first quotes at leaped out at me was from army. Lieutenant General Doug Lute he was the Afghan wars are in the White House for both Bush and Obama and he said we didn't have the foggiest notion of what we were undertaking in Afghanistan. We didn't know what we were doing you. He said twenty four hundred lives lost where they lost in vain. The United States invaded Afghanistan in late. Two thousand one after the attacks of September eleventh understand the genesis if that war I spoke with Hussein Connie who served as Pakistan's ambassador to the United States from two thousand eight to twenty eleven our interviews first aired in February of this here. Okay so we're going to try and get the whole picture of Coniston. What do you think I can I can do it? In thirty seconds. Americans know nothing about Afghanistan. They've been trying to understand it and they haven't succeeded so it's time time for them to come home good less than thirty seconds really good all right so first of all. Thank you for coming in pleasure being Kim. I'm actually curious before we even start. Where did you grow up? Could argue bucket son Tommy and tiny bit about your childhood. Well I mean. I wasn't born to a very rich or prosperous family My family were immigrants from India Pakistan partition of the subcontinent. They were housed in these British military barracks which had been transformed into temporary housing for families a fresh veggies. Today's speaker partition growing up. Oh yeah everybody's book about partition partition. Was it a trauma carried or yeah I mean my father was somebody who never wanted partition and didn't want to move to Buxton. My mother was somebody who believed in Bahrain and Shen and wanted to move to Pakistan so therefore we had a lot of kitchen table Debate about whether the party should have been something. I think that has stayed with me. A- An intellectual level. Even to this day how right now people in Buxton don't want to think of what might have been if there had been no oh partition and people in India always sort of think about the people who created Pakistan. Are the ones responsible for partition from my own childhood childhood debates. I understand that there was a far more complex situation at that time and that they could have been ways in which it could have been avoided. I'm curious how that affects affects how you perceive the relationship between Pakistan Afghanistan on the Taliban and one of the things that's remarkable but the Taliban is that over the last eighteen years the the Taliban is hung on and if anything they've gone stronger. Where does the relationship begins between Pakistan and tally first of all one has to understand what the issue is is on the part of Pakistan that makes interested in Afghanistan Pakistan as people don't always understand is a new country There was no Pakistan in history. The the name Pakistan is an acronym that was contrived by students Muslim students from the subcontinent Cambridge University in the late thirties. So the very idea Pakistan is no more than eight years old and the country is no more than seventy seventy one years old that said because Pakistan choose to be a western ally in the Cold War it got got a lot of benefit from American and European support of Aniston on the other hand because it was a neighbor of the Soviet Union from inception. Older country just didn't get involved in the Cold War and then of course. American awareness of Ghanistan goes only as far back as the Soviet invasion of nineteen. Seventy nine for of guns and what is today. Pakistan comprises a large tract of territory that was historic Ernestine and that was sticking by the British and eighteen ninety-three resentment and more important than resentment is a feeling that The Durand Line the border between Pakistan Afghanistan today divided ethnicity that Bush dunes do I did tribes. Do I cleanse so pucks constantly have always had a relatively open the border The hundreds of points of crossing etcetera. That was taken advantage off by the United States and everybody else who supported them which I then against the Soviets at the Mujahideen were of guns who were essentially people who resented communistic of Ghanistan came to Buxton got recruited trained etc Pakistan. Had A different goal than America did and other countries did in the war against the Soviets everybody else was interested in Soviet. I leaving Afghanistan Bucks was interested in ensuring that whatever succeeded the Soviet occupation was so behold into Pakistan that they would never question the Durand Line and the 1893 loss of territory until Pakistan ended up supporting some of the most hardline fundamentalist groups because they were closer to Pakistan's military and intelligence services then the more secular or pro-soviet all for that matter Less religiously stringent groups. When the Soviets left civil war broke out of Ghanistan Pakistan supported? The hardliners has situation went out of control the US redrew from the region took no interest in the civil war Pakistan decided to support this group called the the Taliban which was basically those hidden who were not willing to listen to their leaders and so punks John was present at the creation of the Taliban. The Taliban have almost always had a very strong relationship with Pakistan security services who has ever supported the Taliban accept them and for on Pakistan's point of view who else has supported Pakistan's would we want Afganistan that have gone should actually consider Pakistan in religious terms as Islamic country rather than as the country that deprives traditional of of their historic homeland part of their historic dot com. Land that is where the differences comes to the Taliban have consistently been supported from Pakistan. The the reason why. The Taliban are strong is because President Bush's comment made a big mistake. The Bush administration defined their job in Afghanistan. Very Natalie. The thought that their job was just getting rid of either before you get to President Bush and we're talking about George W W motion take us. I in nine eleven. How did Pakistan view the attacks on nine eleven but first of all we must understand that? There's a difference between how Pakistan Gaston security services view something and how the people of Pakistan something The people of Pakistan have one hundred views but the specs in security services have only one objective suggest to try and be equal in part to India. That's the historic goal. So the way this nine eleven was that it disrupted their little plan. They had installed the Taliban in par of Ghanistan the Mujahideen groups at all fallen by the wayside. The Taliban were so beholden to Pakistan. That now there was no question that any tune in Afghanistan will ever question the border or even Pakistan's right to dictate to Afghanistan. That was disrupted by nine eleven because now the Americans got involved until another superpower as well not only that not only that it's Pakistan's ambitions have been taught it the the Pakistani ambition of having a Afghanistan that is beholden completely to Pakistan because I've gone assigned his landlocked Pakistan. Is the the only access to the sea. Box is bigger much stronger. Military much more connected with the rest of the world suboxone could dictate to Afghanistan. And now if America's GonNa to come and install a new regime in Afghanistan that regime will not be beholden to Pakistan has has been the case so therefore all the Taliban leaders evacuated and we found out many years later in two thousand eleven And been other than was founded buck Sunday draws on just the Taliban leaders even some al Qaeda leaders ended up in Pakistan. Where were you on on nine eleven? I was in Pakistan. I was ironically. I was about to leave his llamas for Karachi on a flight in which on both sides I had to former Pakistan intelligence chief sitting in coach class on a light throws Lama but to Karachi the flight got cancelled in the nine eleven news game and so I had to stay the night in Islamabad before going on to Karachi. What was the reaction like in the airport that day mode important than the reaction of the general public? I'll tell you what the to through intelligence chiefs and they thought that the Americans had been taught a lesson and so it was interesting Because I was of course one one of those who taught that no this is going to become a lesson for global terrorism America will retaliate and will react bucks. Any public. Opinion has often been very anti-american American. So half of Foxton population was probably anti-american but there are also a lot of people like myself who resented the Jihadi extremists and terrorists. In fact within a couple of days of nine eleven I wrote an op Ed that appeared in the New York Times and which I made this argument that Pakistan me now have to choose friendship with the United States or continued support of the jihadis unfortunately eighteen years. I have the feeling that they really never ever had. Because the Americans allowed them the opportunity to carry on support for the jihadis wiping America's allies. Let's go into that a little further because Pakistan nominally was US ally as a US enters into this conflict but at the same time they have their own interests in Afghanistan. John can you explain that difference so for one thing. Pakistan had a military dictatorship at the time General Pervez Musharraf was in charge and the American sort of the old habit of trying to find you. You know what FDR used to say about Somoza dictatorship in Nicaragua that he's my he's sob but he's my sob. So all of a sudden Americans thought. Okay Sheriff who was by the way at that time. Pariah and the Americans had thought that he he had toppled the civilian elected democratic government. Be He had been responsible for the war with India just a few months before his takeover and see hypoxia. John was not conforming to American expectations in relation to its nuclear program so Pakistan within the sanctions before nine eleven and after nine eleven eleven which turns around and says okay. What you need what you need help you and the Americans if we found out SOB so we should have helped the US in finding several alka figures? A lot of people who ended up in Guantanamo were found by Pakistan's intelligence service but he never dealt a final blow to the Jihadi groups that Pakistan itself had created for influence in Afghanistan that just Afghan Taliban Taliban and then these various jihadi groups that were waging war in a indian-controlled parts of Kashmir and even in India so soon after nine eleven when there was an attack on India's parliament which caused a lot of friction between India and Pakistan and the US decided to tilt in favor of Pakistan to try and tell India not to react act and the Americans would somehow bring stability. The Pakistani game continued well until two thousand and six before the US reacted between Immediately after nine eleven and two thousand six the American policy seemed to be to say the Taliban are not enemy enemy. Al Qaeda and Pakistan is helping us with al Qaeda but by two thousand six al Qaeda number twos threes They won't any left oft for Buxton tourist and handle to the Americans and lots of intelligent started coming of how the Taliban had regrouped in Pakistan and had had now started attacking American troops in honest son so Pakistan was now seen as both being American ally helping America in certain ways but also helping America's enemies the Taliban attack Americans in Afghanistan. How is that support provided to the Taliban don well the Taliban were equipped trained and host in Pakistan? And I think there's plenty of evidence of that I mean right now. The president off the United States is kind of set his goals as drawing from Afghanistan. So he doesn't want to be attention to any of that but if you remember he himself pointed out out that All evidence was that the Taliban would not have been the first became if they did not have a safe haven across the border in Pakistan. Go ahead to two thousand eight e become the ambassador to Washington and at that point what were the most challenging aspects of your job. What was the tension between Pakistan and the US so let me back up a little in two thousand and two? I came to the United States and I came here to Krista the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and then to be a professor of international relations in Boston University and the reason was that I had been a fervent critic off gentleman sheriff and his dictatorship so it became difficult for me to stay in Pakistan. John and I came into a life exactly Musharraf as you know had massive public uprising against him in two thousand seven hundred thousand. Nate new elections were held the civilian government that was elected asked me to become ambassador. Were already based here. I was already in the United States. I literally moved from Boston to Washington. DC to become ambassador rather than moving from Islamabad to Washington at that shifts. Your Life. I mean had you liked being civilian and just teaching young. Actually with hindsight site probably would be better off remaining a civilian because I found myself in the vortex of a lot of controversies after became investor. Of course those who criticise me would argue that you know the fact that I had lived in exile for a few years and made me predisposed to seeing things from an American I who wear as I saw it as being being a little bit more objective I understood what the weaknesses in the Pakistani position. If we were going to build a democracy in Pakistan Pakistan could not be a democracy see and be home to Jihadi terrorist both at the same time. How did they entice you back? Then I mean it seems like you'd have a nice live in Boston but The civilian civilian leadership. I was very close to them in the Bhutto as our our leader and she used to meet regularly. I met regularly. We talked about it so we were the way I saw it. We had an opportunity with Musharraf. Gone the military being prepared to seat bar to the civilians. We could actually build a viable modern democracy in Pakistan and then Benazir Bhutto had been killed as you know and when she was skilled husband husband who became president had kind of an emotional advantage in asking me. You know what I know that you're going to give up a comfortable life as is a professor in the US but this is some very you would be effective and useful environment to become ambassador. And then on the American side. They were a lot of people who said to me. Hey you it would be a good interlocutor to have a life for you. Input killed though. I mean we learn French was extremely traumatic and I felt immense sense of responsibility not Because she had young Children Home v knew very well ask family and because she didn't also have to go back. Doc I mean she could have said. I've been prime minister twice. I'm going to live comfortably abroad. She also went from a sense of duty. Where were you when she was killed built in Boston? And how did you hear about it. Somebody called me actually. I was sleeping early in the morning. Eastern time the phone rang. I answered the phone. Oh my wife had gone to bacchus the Sun She ran for parliament and became a member of parliament. So somebody called me and said done on CNN and done on CNN and the news was so I called my wife who was crying and willink she was at the hospital. been had been brought after that fateful attack one up and so that was partly dri back in that drew me back in and secondly look if it wanted to do something important and something historic then you have to give up some comfort and then in twenty eleven year involved in something that came to be called memo gate. Memo Gate was a label that was invented in Pakistan for something that will not a total fabrication After the whole bin Laden raid a a lot of questions raised about Paxton's conduct as to why Pakistan had bin Laden and the Pakistani military and intelligence services that didn't like my guts anyway because I had already written a book that was published a few years earlier titled Pakistan Between Mosque and military in which I had pointed out that the reason why Pakistan has religious extremists because is the military actually cultivates them for regional political influence so the militant and the intelligence services didn't like me but after the bin Laden raid taught our. We need a scapegoat. We need somebody to blame for why the Americans were able to find bin Laden without us being able to find find him. I didn't want to answer the question. Why was Bin Laden there in the first place there? People doubt that Pakistan didn't know absolutely. I'm one of them so they decided they needed a distraction and in this environment apex American businessmen who lived in Monaco. If I'm not mistaken came up with this allegation that I had asked him to deliver a memo on behalf of the civilian government to Admiral Mullen. Who was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs and add had the MEMEL promised certain concessions to the US if the US helped the Pakistani civilians got the military down to site now the catch all of this is that while there's nothing wrong with the civilian government asserting authority over the military suggesting that a foreign country's military put pressure on the military of your own country. Cut them down to size was rock. I had nothing to with that. Memo the editor of Pakistan's as was quoted in the Guardian is calling it a slow moving coop. Yes exactly so. It was essentially an attempt to weaken can the civilian government by accusing it of seeking American military support against Pakistan's military nine bucks in the military is respected and admired. It's ruled the country for more than half its life life and even those who don't admire it gone bad mouth even though it's a very politicized institution so it was an attempt to cut civilians downsize. This and eventually I went back to try and answer. The questions of Cassandra went to Pakistan to do that. I was told not to leave the country so I was stuck there for about three months but eventually they had to let me go because they hadn't charged with anything they have no criminal proceedings that participate in. So how long Jonquet just sit there waiting for. Where were you during so during that time I was protected by the civilian leadership of the country? I I was in the president's residents and when he became ill and had to travel abroad. The prime minister kept me in the Prime Minister's House. I was virtually ended attention in the sense that I couldn't leave. Ah premises but I was physically protected against the military to unique situation and the civilian government supported me in my position and my right to actually have all the legal protections that I was entitled to and the military and the intelligence services joining with the hardest line elements of Pakistan's media saying some treason has has been committed. This man you know. Let's just hang him and have a try litter but to actually. I was allowed to leave the country and I haven't done. Since but in January there was an arrest warrant issued Free Cassini coats issue what are known as political arrest warrants pretty frequently and the international community has now figured that out so these are centered around and they tried to get entry turnball turns them down and foreign countries. Turn them down routinely because it's now become such a sad practice it was done against Benazir Bhutto been done against which really every Pakistani political figure of any consequence. Do you live in fear I don't think so I am not easily terrified. So that's one part. The other part is that When has to say what one has to say? I mean what what's going to happen open I don't think that any international court is ever going to on a any of these allegations. These are primarily designed. Do keep the box tiny population from taking some of my writings and my criticisms cicely believers country as a result earliest temporarily emperor. Yeah but I'm not the only one I think the people who live there also lost family in Pakistan. I have extended family. That your wife is here. Oh now my wife and children. I want to circle US backed Afghanistan president. Trump's made it clear he wants out of Afghanistan sent will what's the endgame well. I don't think president trump has an endgame. I think he wants out and he wants out and There are people who measure military intervention mentioned by years. And those who do that say. Hey you've been there seventeen years time to come out. My point is that military intervention should always be measured against goose. Bruce what did you go for and to accomplish it or not and if you did not why not. It shouldn't be measured in time in terms of what you ended there. Therefore you went there. Because the United States was attacked on nine eleven of Coniston had become a safe haven for al Qaeda and other Islamist extremists. Jihadi the groups the idea after that was to try and make sure that of Ghanistan image it environment doesn't become a safe haven for global terrorism. They're the US went wrong. Was the Bush administration's mistake of completely trust in General Musharraf in ensuring that the Aja the groups are eliminated on the puck sunny site. So while of Vannes Stan was rebuilding. You ended up having the Taliban reorganized and become a nuisance and sort of CONISTON. Then President Obama made a huge mistake off the so-called surgeon of Ghanistan to fight the Taliban but at the same time announced the data for the federal as what that did was it hit the Taliban and Pakistan's supported them game. How Long America will be there the Taliban had a maxim that Milomar who was the founder of the Taliban used to say that the Americans Have Watches v half the time and basically when President Obama announced that there will be a scheduled withdrawal tied to the surge all all they did was told the Taliban to sit in their sort of funeral safe havens envied for the American withdrawal when that withdrawal didn't come the Taliban undecided to increase the heat which has now deserted and president trump. I sing who will stay as long as we need to. But now saying we are in a hurry to withdraw so in every way you look at it basically the US has not really put up the fight that should have been put up to succeed has US lost. I don't think the US has lost. I think the US has allowed the others to be able to proclaim victory by not putting up a fight Nothing has ever been done to deal with the constant back and forth of Taliban and their supplies applies from the Pakistani side of Weinstein's own government has been allowed to go in every which direction the US spent too much money on Afghanistan. We twelve necessary. I'll give you an example When I was invested I learned that there were several studies that were taking taking place here about these standards at which of public schools and I said to somebody in the the US gunman how many do these studies cost? And there's a couple of hundred thousand dollars for somebody doing a study and I said what are these studies about. You're trying trying to figure out whether schools in Ghana Stan should be more like New Jersey. Schools are Maryland schools. Something why don't you understand. You know Ghanistan. Based on before the Soviets game a decent school was a roof. A blackboard some chock a teacher and some books. Why can't we do that so when people here complain that Oh God the US visted and spent too much money in done around to them and say you didn't didn't have to you did that because that's where you make your decisions? It's not the port of this for. You could have done it all at much less cost. And so what has happened now is that. Nobody's thinking about the ordinal reason for going into Afghanistan. What if he come out? The government in Afghanistan is unable to fight the Taliban the Taliban regained control of most. If not all of his son and end the various global jihadi terrorist groups three congregate not because of any other reason but because it logically they and the the Taliban have much more in common and will be welcomed much more easily than they would be in a country where the government really runs and extremists. He misses from another country are really not allowed to set up right now. The US has created a framework agreement with the Taliban but Afghan government has said. It won't participate participate. But I what is the framework agreement. The framework agreement is essentially That the US would draw injured done for a week. Taleban Bon promise that they will not support international jihadi terrorist groups but the Taliban themselves that an international terrorist group. They've attacked Americans have attacked attack. The American embassy more than once attacked Germans French British Canadians. Australians I can't understand how dare I promise that they will not allow or Isis to come back into Havana. Stan and be considered worth the paper. It's written aunts. I really really don't see. There's a framework agreement. All I see is a promise for those who just really want out so that they can use it as a fig-leaf Gli forgetting out. What is the legacy of the? US's seventeen eighteen years in Afghanistan. Oh there's a lot of positive legacy I mean a lot more would've gone. Young women are going to school. The Taliban didn't allow that the Taliban played football with human heads. If you remember. The Taliban were one of the most atrocious atrocious regimes in human history and all of that is gone and now the Taliban are themselves saying all of that was wrong so that is definitely a positive. The legacy that Americans can be proud of a government has been created in Afghanistan that with all its weaknesses and flaws and by the government doesn't have flaws at the same time there was always a concern that the US cannot afford to antagonize Buxton. Buxton is a nuclear armed country. Buxton has been an American ally for several several decades. It would complicate the situation if Pakistan was put under too much pressure so in a way basically the failure of the US in relation relation to Afghanistan has not been failure of its actions in Afghanistan but off its inaction in relation to a Taliban based in Pakistan Kazakhstan. I'm curious if there's anything else that you went off our listeners that I haven't asked you will. I would just say that your listeners need to think about what is common cullman. Between Vietnam Iraq Afghanistan countries America went in guns blazing and kind of came out route without a visible success. And I would say that. The real reason is a failure to understand the regional dynamics except politics and an inadequate understanding of the culture of the politics of the country. You're going when you intervene in another country entry You should know who Elisa You should have a minimalist agenda of what you're going to change to not going to change and you should have a time line in your own mind. In each of these cases those requirements were not fulfilled People that you supported like Hamid Karzai ended up running on you in being critical of you and yet you don't feel that you have somebody in Afghanistan and that you can trust as your ally so those are the errors that I think are the big lesson of Ghanistan and even now I would say that instead of announcing scheduled withdrawal America should be clear of what it wants in Afghanistan. Not when it wants it enough. I'm GonNa stop thank you Mr Hussein. Connie is a former Pakistani ambassador to the United Nited States. We should mention. He was one of foreign policy. Top Global Thinkers back in twenty thirteen first person is produced by Daffron and edited by Rob. Sachs I'm Welton Welton and I'm your host.
How small-dollar donors could choose our next president
"<music> from the newsroom on the washington post from the washington post sarah kaplan <music> hi this is this is post reports. I'm martine powers. It's thursday august. I fifteen today why small dollar donors won't matter in two thousand twenty india's radical move in kashmir and how to make it in the world of audio books so when i'm on facebook and i see an ad from <hes> elizabeth warren karen or from bernie sanders comma harrison it's like text so and so to donate ten dollars to my campaign. That's usually going through. This back can channel act blue correct. My name is anan swamy. I'm a data reporter on the politics team since last week. A new has been breaking came down this data on all the political donations made through this online fundraising platform act blue act. Lou is a vehicle through which people who wanted to give to the democrats in either in congress at the federal level state level or at the local level can make small dollar contributions small dollar means any donation of less than two hundred dollars given at one time. This data said that'd be analyzed looks at only the act donations which is just a small money. Donations is coming via the aclu platform in addition to that there could be a few people that are writing out checks for five dollars or ten dollars and mailing it into the campaign or seeing somebody somebody who is at a campaign event on passing on a check or even cash. It's become an important metric of how candidate is doing and it's important in terms of polling. It's also important because small money is a metric for whether they make it to the debate stage or not so because of all these reasons. It's increasingly important in this race. The senate has been in past years and it does seem like we're in this new age. Where people are taking these small dollar donations seriously as has an ability to track who was doing well that it used to be that people were only paying attention to the polls and i remember that in two thousand sixteen when president trump was running that people talked about the fact that he was getting lots of small dollar donations but weren't really taking that seriously as an indicator of what's to come and feels like that's really changed now. Where people are looking at hugh. You is getting money from random regular people and taking that as a sign of who has real movement in their campaign. That's correct back right now. If you go and look at what we've collected tons of the data you'll see that senator sanders is the person who's got the most number of donations from the vast majority of the geographical area of the country and that's an important metric to see who supporters are he's raised thirty million dollars dollars and he's gotten donations from more than seven hundred forty six thousand individuals and that's followed by senator elizabeth warren who's who's raised seventeen million from over four hundred thousand people and unthought blaze would be mayor p buddha judge who's raised as fifteen million from three hundred seventy six thousand people and it's interesting the fact that these are candidates that are yes in the top tier of of where people are pulling but are not like this isn't the same order that we're seeing from actual polling rightly. Joe biden isn't on this list. Kamala harris on this list and i wonder what that says to you. I think it's a combination of polling and these numbers that has to be taken in perspective when you're looking at who's leading in an who is <hes> at second place and things like that who are the kinds of people who are giving the small dollar donations. I think it's it's really interesting mix of people. We've talked to people who've given one dollar to twenty candidates and there are different reasons. They're doing it. It's because they like somebody's debate eight performance or they are into what they said in a campaign speech and we also came across a few other people who were giving twenty five dollars or two hundred dollars and they are giving to two or three specific candidates because those are the candidates that attract them the most. I talked to a woman in florida who who said that she really likes santa warren. She liked the plans and she had very specific reasons on why she was supporting senator warren red and she had contributed to her campaign various amounts over a period of time. My name is shirley aaron. I'm from havana in a florida which is about eleven miles from tallahassee florida and i am seventy eight years old. I have has donated to elizabeth warren and i think i'm donated probably a little over three hundred dollars. Our what we're seeing is that only a fifth of these number of people are giving to multiple candidates for instance from the data. We can see that at senator. Bernie sanders supporters eighty percent of the money that senator sanders is getting is from people who are giving only to his campaign so he has a very very solid support and then the other two people who have a really high percentage of unique donors who are not giving to anybody else is andrew yang and joe biden it so other candidates who are getting lots of small dollar donations like elizabeth warren. They may get a lot of donations. A lot of the people who are donating to them are also kind of willing to donate to other people i donated to kamala harris brock's monthly seventy five dollars and i had donated to marianne williamson twenty five dollars and tolsey gabbert twenty five dollars. It's interesting to know the combination of candidates that are getting donations from the same people for instance since we're seeing that senator warren into harris are sharing sixty thousand common donors so that's an interesting trend what were some of the other surprises you heard from some of these donors who have given to multiple campaigns one of the interesting things that several people told us was that they gave gave to somebody after debate performance or they gave to somebody a few days or even hours after that because they wanted to see them back on the debate stage i donated to marianne williamson because i think that she has something different to you say that needs to be heard so i would like to see her as a part of the next <hes> next debate <music> so there was this one person who said he was a republican but was giving to all twenty candidates because he wanted to create havoc on the debate stage. My name is mike blitz. I live in spokane valley washington. I did donate to every democratic candidate only a dollar with the exception of marianne williamson. I donated some extra there. She thousand sixteen was terrible for republicans because they had so many candidates and hopefully the democrats. It'll be wise to drop ofo little earlier. <hes> 'cause i can tell which candidates would be able to see trump in which would i want as many people on that debate stage as possible looking excrete chaos. I wonder how that will that will turn out did you. Is that like a like. A trend or is just one person. Maybe it's a trend fan. I mean that's two point three million people that have given so so as the campaign progresses and we get to a point where we're seeing fewer candidates. Do you expect that we'll start to easiest shift and see fewer of these donors who are trying to donate to multiple campaigns or spreading their money around that there will be more donors who are coalescing around one candidate. I think that is likely to happen as more and more people drop out of the race and we see that there's a shift in mindset that or a shift in polling that shows that one candidate is doing better than the other they will coalesce around a couple at least and we'll also see that <hes> the amount of money that each of these candidates will be raising by small donor dollars will increase. Why do you think the democratic party is putting so much stock in these small dollar donations in a way that we haven't seen before that they're making it part of the requirements for being on the debate stage small small money has become an important metric to see how a candidate is offering how much support it has all across the nation. One of the key things at the democratic party party is looking at is not just how much money they're getting from small dollars also saying that you should be getting small dollars from every state or at least so many the states so it's not enough that senator harris is getting all the small money from california it has to be spread out throughout the country and i think pink some of this might be a learning from twenty sixteen where senator sanders had a wide-ranging grassroots support but was not the candidate ultimately the fact that there is so much emphasis for these democratic candidates on their small dollar donation hall. Do you think that ends up making whoever is the nominee stronger or weaker when it comes to actually getting past the primaries when it comes to actually getting to the general election small money donors as great for just paring down the campaign and seeing who the last two three four people would be but finally went into one on one with president president trump. You need a boatload of money to make it and to win. President trump already has five hundred eighty million and he's raised by his campaign the joint fundraising committees he has with the party and the republican party itself and that's a ton of money to you. Go up against that and to compete against that you need support from the party. You need support from maybe even super pacs that are going to come into play much later in the game. A new narayan swami is a data reporter with the post <music> <music> <music> <music> cashmere is a region in the himalayan mountain range that sits in what we know as india pakistan and to a lesser extent china join us leader is the india bureau chief for the post. What's the reason why this region is so disputed and tents. You have to rewind the clock a little bit actually to seventy two years years ago. Almost exactly which is when british india was partitioned. That's when india became independent and pakistan was created one one territory. Jammu and kashmir was along the border. It became a part of india. Even though it's majority muslim and india is majority hindu in exchange range it was granted a semi autonomous status until last week on the morning of august. Five cushman woke up to an unprecedented clampdown. Canea massey is an india correspondent for the post but current blackout and kashmir is the worst ever facing the violence he region that has seen several internet shutdowns in the past mobile internet cable t._v. Have been suspended by the authorities and for the first even landline phones have been cut off foreign journalists need special permits from the government government so it's nearly impossible to enter kashmir right now but because knee-high is an indian national she was able to visit the disputed territory sheena got the capital of india controlled kashmir that i visited felt like a cost down who citizens had left in a hurry the streets are awash with gun-toting soldiers instant people people remain locked inside the homes with no phone service no internet network or even cable television in other areas tear gas smells but we'd the air after protesters clashed with security forces. John of goa india go back and we want freedom rent the air during protests shrinagar. Today is an angry town seething with resentment waiting for an outburst right now. Most people seem to be in shock at the sudden announcement by the indian government over warning one day. I'm ready john j._j. Still coming to terms with what has happened. The most of the people i spoke to were angry at the stealthy india announced the decision unilaterally without taking schmunity people into confidence on friday heidi thousands of people came out to march against what they call india's occupation. The protests have only made the intimate government. Come down harder and tighten restrictions. It is unlikely though that even if the protests crew there would be a rollback back off the controversial decision communities have long been disenchanted with indian government and what they call. It's excessive use of force in the region and and this move has only further alienated them so last week india effectively undid seven decades of history in kashmir kashmir again. Let's join us leader now. We're entering really uncharted territory for kashmir for india yeah <hes> for pakistan and no one really knows where where this will lead one of the things india undid to accommodate cashmere back around the time that it was itself was becoming a country was to include a special article. It's constitution which gave the steet a certain measure of autonomy and over the last seven decades that autonomy has eroded to some extent but they're still some key exceptions so for instance indians from other parts of the country were not allowed to buy land in kashmir or are to hold government jobs there and this provision which is called article three seventy was really viewed by kashmiri as as <hes> an important portent guarantor of their own rights and of their own special status within india but now that has changed what exactly happened so this provision which is known as article three seventy has long been a target of love hindu nationalists india's prime minister narendra modi on this i promise during the recent election campaign that one of the things he would do would be to get rid of article three seventy seven gulf of maine so on august fifth the prime minister announced that the government had decided to get rid of this provision gauche mute special status ends today this historic day article three. He's seventy giving genuine kushner. Special status has been scrapped abolished by a presidential order even went even further which is one of the more dramatic parts of this. They not only revoked the powers of this provision in india's constitution but they stripped gentleman cashmere of stated so there's no really good analogy here but let's see you took massachusetts and said from now on it would be like puerto rico. It's it doesn't really work but it's similar in that they took joe moon cashmere and they turned it from state into something that's called a union territory here which is a second class status that gives it less control over its own affairs ears and that's never happened before and they can just do that just like that. They can just unilaterally decide kashmiri. You're no longer state so there's some questions pins about what the government did and that's something that india's supreme court will almost certainly have to decide in the coming weeks whether what the government was did constitutional but they're also more philosophical questions about whether what it did was <hes> democratic back so certainly the way this provision was written it was opposed to any changes to provisions were supposed to involve the consent of elected you leaders in kashmir itself and and there has been no consultation with kashmiris or with local political representatives about this decision so you said that this is something that prime minister modi and hindu nationalists have been talking about for a while. Why do they want to do that. They wanna do that because cashmere. Gem kashmir is india's only muslim majority state and i think it's fair to say that people have that political persuasion are not crazy about kashmir having a kind of any kind of special privileges <hes> they see it as just another part of india and so it should be treated as such and the government argues <hes> that these steps are necessary and that once the shock of this decision whereas off it will usher in what the prime minister has called a a new dawn for kashmir where there will be more development <hes> and more peace now that is <hes> untested tested and untested theory to say the least so what have we heard so far from china and from pakistan which are the two vested interests in this region china's not really happy about this but china is not really the the major interest in this particular dispute pakistan gaston. However is is irate. Pakistan has long seen itself as the defender of kashmiri muslims and the defender of the kashmiri 'cause pause it has taken various steps to protest the decision from cutting trade ties with india to <hes> <hes> withdrawing diplomats now the real question is india has long accused pakistan of supporting and sheltering the militants that that are involved in this insurgency and you know that support <hes> from various parts of pakistan's on security and intelligence establishment has kind of waxed and waned over the years so the question is whether after this decision in pakistan will in any way lend covert support to these militants once again and if that's the big question coming out of this. Is there an expectation that this decision by the indian government might precipitate violence absolutely that's. That's the fear there's a fear that it could lead to violent protests. There's fear could lead to further radicalization. When young people there is a fear that it could lead to a more active militancy in the kashmir valley rallied now. None of that may happen so far thankfully there has not been <hes> lurch skill <hes> <hes> violence that is partly because there are very severe restrictions in place in kashmir at the moment and we don't exactly know what's going to happen once wants those restrictions are removed or even in the weeks and months after that join us leader and nia mossy cover india for the post thursday is independence day in india prime minister narendra modi took took the opportunity to defend the government's decision to strip jammu and kashmir's special status. He said that the move would help india's development and was in the territories where he's best interest <music> <music> and now one more thing what it takes to become an audio book narrator and i will say one thing. I never took you for ford man. Come on the van said as he slipped behind the steering wheel. This car is more than a fourth. This is a classic feel that leather soft often subtle just like a woman's cheek went to age studios. I sat on a lesson between david maceio who goes by the trade name. David samson and his coach was johnny. Our who's narrated more than eight hundred audiobooks. He's been in the case for quite some time. That's travis destroying a reporter on the post style desk a few weeks ago. He went up to new york to spend some time with people who are trying to break into the field of audiobook narration chen in general being a new narrator. It's grind because you need to build yourself up to build up your own reputation and that means adding to your portfolio which then entails taking a lot of low paying or unpaid work just to have experience just to have clips and the rates for new narrators depend on their own experience the size of the publisher and how long a publishing company expects a book to take up to fifty dollars for a smaller publisher and then i think for medium and larger publishers it ranges between hundred to three three hundred fifty dollars an hour but that's per finished hour. That's not per hour of work. The ratio is usually about six hours of actual work in real real time to one finished our so you'll be compensated for ten hours of work but it might take you sixty hours in total and you need to be able to sit still for hours at a time essentially staring at words and you can't fidget move your hands too much of of course the sounds we picked up. You need to speak on accented american english. You have to be able to read cold copy beep because when you're doing audio books there's no time to memorize all that and that's the key. It's it's sounding like you know what you're talking about. It sounding like you're inside the characters head. It's creating an illusion in a lot of ways which is why the craft is such a difficult one but it can be really as memorizing one when you're really good at it. David mikhael works with coach johnny heller who has narrated more than eight hundred audiobooks he does everything from highbrow biographies two to children's books to the genre fiction that they worked on when travis was sitting in and so they were reading selection of chairs hodge's book uncalled recipe for desire. What is it with men comparing cars to women on time because nothing drives his crazier than a beautiful woman nor fast car and they're doing this scene where the main character marie is with her object of interest devan and they're going to presbyterian hospital because she twisted her ankle at the soup kitchen she works out and so they're flirting in his ford mustang as they go on the way down okay. I never took you four men okina. He's hip or that a four a forged dad's car. That's what she said you for them yeah now his response what's come on man. Look at this especi- so you're bragging about your car. You're doing with an offer of subtlety. General thing is here okay. He's saying this cars. This classic feel that left you remember the the literally the vowel sounds you feel they say feel that leather audiobook narration and a lot of ways like acting it's a performance art but it's one where instead of having full utility of your body and your face and your physicality polity you you just have to focus on your voice and both heller and david both of them had stand up backgrounds comedic backgrounds it's and theatrical backgrounds but they felt that audiobook narration scratched that which in a way that was a little more explorative and fun because you get to play every single character in a story when you're narrating audiobook what heller said to me was that yeah you know you might wanna be king lear on on the stage but not i won't can be king lear but when you're narrating the audiobook yeah you can beaching lear all his daughters gloucester and everyone else else and there is a fun in that travis to sean is a style reporter for the post to my own horn heller said that if i don't stay in journalism i may have a future and audiobook narration and that's it for today's at the post reports. Thanks for listening on on tomorrow's show aretha franklin and how her music shaped people's lives so i went for the biggest people i could think of paul simon carole king being oprah oprah like oprah oprah bra dog is sisters are doing it for themselves that exactly how i feel <music>. I'm martine powers. We'll be back tomorrow with more stories from the washington post <music>.
The Policy Popularity Game
"Hi this is Mike. PESCA host of the gist an ad supported. podcast don't believe me. Listen to this. When historic flooding hit Fremont Nebraska the local Walmart stayed open to distribute lifesaving supplies like food water and bedding free of charge since two thousand Seventeen Walmart and the Walmart Foundation? Dacian have given nearly fifty million dollars in disaster relief because every community has a story and a Walmart Visit Walmart dot org slash community for more info. The following recording may contain explicit. Language can't get more explicit than may say it may Uh It's Wednesday November six two thousand nineteen from the gist. I Mike Past Fox News today. Embarrassed itself slash rush engaged in brand extension when it published an excerpt of a book by author Doug Plead writing about CIA officers and the trump administration and we quote a source as saying next thing they said was that in the previous administration they spent a lot of time in the White House doing nonstop PC parentheses durant sees political correctness meetings. They would have a meeting every week and at the conclusion of the meeting there was always the suggestion. Let's meet again in two weeks. Nothing was ever resolved resolved immediately. Hundreds of people caught the mistake made by Doug we'D AUTHOR OF GAME OF THORNS. The inside story of Hillary Clinton's failed campaign Donald Trump's trump's winning strategy and it was that PC in this context does not stand for political correctness. It stands for Principals Committee the inner circle of the National Security Council when told of the Error Fox conceded but a careful vetting of doug weeds IRV raw might might be an order for instance. There was this assertion that John F. Kennedy created a PC or political correctness agency which sent idealistic young Americans throughout the world to help indigenous peoples that was even said to be the toughest job. You'll ever love mccue drums. Wait I have the Audio Peace Corps the toughest job you'll ever love. Oh okay not political correctness sa all right well. There was a story that we'd broke. That had gone so far as to allow gay couples to get married at least no religious institution would would be heartened by weeds reporting pc or political correctness pave the way for gay couples to be married the Presbyterian Church USA just pave the way for same sex couples to get married. I guess also the wrong. Pc we did uncover the fact that the US consumer information center was practically based based on political correctness. New Catalog is free right. Consumer Information Central Pueblo. Colorado eight one zero nine makes me wonder about weeds. Extensive reporting that the Beatles war politically correct suits or that political correctness coached the seahawks to a super bowl. All or that political correctness can feel it coming in the air tonight or maybe that political correctness was a place said to be where the grass is green and the girls are pretty. It's all kind of embarrassing. You've got to wonder if Fox distances themselves from Doug we'd or if they stand by their man as is political correctness famously sang on the show today who to believe when they tell you not to believe the polls but I along with co author thrown economist. Darren US A mug. Lou James Robinson's twenty twelve book. Why nations fail was an epic treatise on just that now the two of taking their acumen and understanding of history to pinpoint the thin slice of opportunity that allows nations to thrive that allows liberty to take hold hold their analogy title? Is that of a narrow corridor in this interview we will refer to a diagram that shows the different states that allow for liberty to flourish. You can totally understand and appreciate the arguments without division but if you want the visual it's in the show notes today and now in your ears. James Robinson Johnson Co author of the narrow corridor states societies and the fate is liberty sleep. Sleep some really important but how do we get there. You gotta calm your mind. The word calm your mind because if you sleep well for more focused. You're more relaxed. It makes us happier. It just makes makes us better people. The people that we want to be in our dreams are dreams. Were Sleeping is why we've partnered with COM- the number one APP for sleep downloaded com choice between a male narrator and a female narrator on different nights. I choose different people to talk to me about different subjects. I listened to it in my home and it is helped. I'M GONNA used vertical column because sleep deficiency does a lot of damage into your brain and your body would start getting in a cycle of good sleep it lead you to more sleep cycle a bad sleep. It leads to bad choices and weight gain. Because you're just looking for sugar fixes. Maybe even depression. What com has a whole library of programs designed to get the sleep that you need over a hundred hundred sleep stories? When I say the people who narrate I mean they have some quite famous people? Jerome Flynn from game of thrones Stephen. FRY that guy if you want to seize the day in sleep the night. Use the help of calm right now just listeners. Get twenty percent off a comma. Premium subscription description ADT COM dot com slash. Gist since the near homophones I will see a l. m. dot dot com slash. Gist forty million. People have downloaded com. Find out why a COM dot com slash gist. Sometimes on this show we get into Picayune details we get into Trivia. We get into a flu via today. I want to go back way back and talk about pretty much. The biggest issues in the world today joining me now is James Robinson he along with his co author. Third Darren Asamoah Glue have written the narrow corridor states societies and the fate of liberty if you recognize the names of those two authors yes about seven seven years ago they wrote the seminal book. Why nations fail which a lot of people have been thinking of lately? This is their newest effort to sort of redefine fine art experiment in civilization. Hello Professor Robinson. Thanks for coming on my pleasure. Let's Talk Leviathans and Hobb's shall we not. I mean this is an obvious place to start when you're talking about how to define liberty and society was your mental process to start with hobbs or to think about these issues and then you said you know it really really does come back to hops. Yeah I think we start with hopes but as soon as you start thinking about hold you see you know how problematic many of the things he said were and many of his arguments arguments. So it's about jobs but it's also about broadening and complicating the dissolved about you. Know what is it that crates crates liberty in a society right to be fair to Hobbs. You know he was writing in the sixteen fifty s and he was ahead of his time then and also he was living in an an age. I suppose that called out for order from chaos and our age is a little different from that. Yes that's right. I mean he was right in the middle of the English civil war and and he was he was saying you know that the solution to this was very strong central authority estate. which would stop this state of wars? He called it and provide you know basic older public goods and our starting point. Is that well. Actually you know that might have looked like a good idea during the sixteen fifties. But if you look at history you see that Leviathans of that sort. It's just as common that they actually create war as stop it so you you have to think about the governance of the Leviathan and in whose interests the Leviathan works and whose preferences it represents so the governance of the state is is critical. And that's that's a crucial part of the book. And when Hobbs was talking about war he spells it w. a. r. e. and it doesn't just mean war. WER and meant a sort of all manner of oppression and all manner of privation and all manner of anarchy absolutely and and the threat of it. It didn't actually have to happen. It was just the potential for or it could have enormous consequences for people's lives so yes it's a very rich. Argument is not just about international warfare as we might think about it right I read. Why nations fail? And I've been thinking about it. I think a lot of people have since populism began to sweep through Europe and then in the United States this is well you tell me but I look at this book as an acknowledgement. That success is not the same as not failure. I think you know the connection between this book and why nations fail Israeli. You know we're trying to get much deeper into the long run political dynamics that creating -clusive political institutions and we're trying to unwrap in some sense the challenges that ah politically inclusive societies face. You know in the idea of the narrow corridors within this corridor there's a balance between state and society not which is critical for having inclusive political institutions. But there's dangers on either side of the corridor you know there's dangerous when the state becomes comes to strong and starts to dominate society. But there's also dangerous when society becomes too strong disillusioned with inclusive political the institutions. And that's something that is not at all in. Why nations fail you know that? I think we emphasize very much. These kind of elite overthrow inclusive political institutions such as the case of Venice historically. But we underplayed you know you try to make these arguments simple and you know anyone can make a complicated arguments about the world you know so. Our job of social sciences at a social scientists is to try to find a simple way of talking about these things and I think at the time. We didn't didn't really have a way of talking about that. So we just sorta finessed it but obviously in the world today you see it's not elite Yuno discontent that's created trumpism or Taddei or you know many of these other movements it's actually popular discontent with the way things are and we couldn't talk about that in why nations fail but but we can with this book. So you're right you know. That's a perceptive comment that this framework allows us to illustrate much better these challenges challenges to inclusive political institutions. I WANNA I WANNA follow up on exactly what you just said but I also want to bring up the example example of Singapore. Because I think in the last book that was considered it was often held out as a very useful counterexample. For some of its neighbors and other states it is a non failed state is it is a highly functional state if you judge it based on failure but if you the judge based on the narrow corridor I don't know how much liberty Singaporean would have or Singapore society would have and I wonder if Singapore is an example of of the despotic Leviathan then the shackled Leviathan which is your framework for roughly functioning. State Yeah I mean. I think I'd say China is probably a better example than than Singapore. No theory explains everything and I think. It's very difficult to debase. A theory of comparative development around the case of Singapore. Because you know it's a small state it's island you know. It wasn't a poor country in nineteen in sixty. I had many modern institutions. And it's you know it's had the remarkable. It's remarkable history of leadership you know with the kind of vision. That's that's lacking in most poor countries and that's very hard as a social scientists to sort of explain where that came from. So I you know it's it's not liberal in the Western sense but it's not like China either so so if it's despotic. It's a fairly soft sort of despotism Singapore oh I would say I mean I think the Chinese cases much clearer obviously or North Korea. Or you know so. So that's that's a better example for us and you know here you'll raising this other issue. I think which is very different from why nations fail. which is you know? We're trying to talk not just about economic development. Of course that's important but also things that we think are fundamentally significant fo- for the quality of human life and what is it that makes society desirable. And you know this. Is this notionally of liberty. I think that's something. We value a lot. But where does that come from you know. How do you explain the enormous variation in that in the world? Now I want I want my listeners to think of because there are a lot of graphs in the book so I want to. I want them to think of two axes. And when you talk about the narrow corridor it's pretty much right in the middle of the two axes so it would be the line at a forty five degree angle from the zero point. Two axes are a strong state and a strong society strong state. I think we all understand that if it gets too strong it gets despotic. And it oppresses its people. But a strong society isn't the same as a week state and it's not exactly the same as anarchy so tell me what you mean by the Strong Society Eddie. Because I think it's a really interesting concept. Yeah I mean we mean how. Society is organized its ability to act collectively mobilize and that you know that. That tonal g bundles. You know many things into into it you know. Let let me give you an example. You know I mean and I think this is why the concept of liberty is so interesting hosting you know so so have you talked about China you know that would be an example of what we call a despotic Leviathan. Where the where the state is strong and society is very weak? And then you could say okay. Well there's not much liberty in China right you know but then there's many other parts of the world that definitely don't look anything like China look. Think about Yemen Yemen Yemen. There's not much liberty in Yemen either. But but the state dominant doesn't dominate society. In fact there's hardly any state at all in Yemen in society. All Power and authority. He is actually in society and society's very organized through troy and kinship groups and you know which which operate completely autonomously leap from the from the state and have resisted the state if you know the big story about the who the rebellion in some sense In Yemen is it's a it's a rebellion against society against the state to control the state to get the state back in its place. So so there's a society is organized and the State isn't no and that doesn't create liberty either but it's very different from China and I guess the Mo the more we thought about those sorts of examples and Lebanon. The you know the Philippines Pakistan Gaston Afghanistan. You know it's not that the state dominates society in Afghanistan. The state has never ruled the mountains. Enough Ghanistan never just the river valleys and the plains so we wanted to have a framework to think about that. You know one frame which we could help us pull all of that together. Are there examples in the industrialized allies world. Or maybe not. Because that's one of the things that makes it industrialized of a really really strong society. So you talk about Afghanistan Yemen. I understand this tribal. It goes back thousands of years ears but are there more modern examples. Maybe society has gotten ahead of the state. Absolutely I mean. I think that's a great question you know and that that in some sense you'll raising here. One of the what we think is the most original interesting parts of the book because Yes. It's true that you know society in Yemen. You know his powerful compared to Chinese society but I would say society in the United States or Western. Europe is even more powerful than Yemen because it's outgrown or it's dissolved these tribal structures Russell kinship structures. And it's able to act on a much broader and much larger basis. So that's that's an even more powerful society from all a perspective because it can broaden the agenda it cannot it can get out of the parochial -ness of tribes which can be very effective. But this could be even more effective so from our perspective respective you know the society in the United States is even more powerful than an and that's part of this process of what we call the Red Queen Effect. It's part of this competition Asian between the states and society and in that competition both state and society change and You know so that's my. That's that's the right and the Red Queen effect is that reference to allison one or Lewis Carroll where you have to be a pretty much run to keep up. So you're saying that a very well oh functioning western European or maybe I hope still. American experiment is Strong Society and the and the State is commensurately strong strong with the society. And that's that's where you get liberty exactly. Is there any examples on the other end of that access like the state and society are both equally week and that's working out in terms of liberty. Not Not too much. I mean we have a we have a concept which comes right at the end of towards the end of the book which we call the paper Leviathan. which is there are parts of the world tonight? You know I think of Latin America like this where you take a country like Colombia you. You know that you have a weak state and a and a week society so you'll Solta more balanced but You get stuck there and the red queen effect never comes into operation so so. But that's that's not liberty in that in that context you know Columbia was you know for many years. The kidnapping AH homicide and drug capital of the world can. It's still have had they've maybe we hope are just getting out of essentially a fifty year civil war. Yeah I I think that most Latin American countries are fairly fairly stuck in that situation but on the other hand you could sort of say well from the point of view of our framework in many ways. There's room for for optimism there because you sort of if they're in this balance then that's a heck of a lot better than you know China or Yemen and there's actually some prospect may be that if you gave push in the right place and we discuss a little bit that tools the end of the book. You could get this red queen fat going and you could get Latin America moving moving. So that's one way of thinking about it. James Robinson along with Darren Asamoah Glue is the author of the narrow corridor state eight societies and the fate of liberty. If you don't read it for the Diagram we talked about read it for details about intentionally wounding dogs suit with a powder of sympathy. I won't say anymore. But what a detail. Thank you so much pleasure. Quick Smart News Worthy of your time axios on HBO Features Leading Axios Coz journalists highlighting the week ahead in politics business technology and the big topics shaping the future from conversations with Ilan mosque about Tesla's early struggles to Tim. Cook's perspective love on government regulation each edition of axios. Helps you dispose of distraction tune out the noise and focus on news that matters most catch new episodes of axios on. Hbo Sundays at six PM. TV streaming on demand. This episode is brought brought to you by Casper. Spent a third of your life sleeping if you're lucky if you're getting the eight hours of sleep so you know what I say. I say you should be comfortable in fact if if you're not you might not be getting the eight hours of sleep. So it's one of those statements that's dependent on the premise to execute the thesis ACIS. Yes I think. That's what I'm saying. 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Get one hundred dollars towards select mattresses by visiting Casper Casper Dot com slash gist and using just a checkout again. Get a hundred dollars towards select mattresses by visiting Casper Dot com slash gist and using code in just a check out terms and conditions apply and now the Spiel. Beware ideologues arguing not just for their policies but for the popularity of their policies. It's one nothing to advocate for a policy to explain why it's the right policy while it will help people why wants becomes law. The population will come to support it. You can assert that. It's it's another thing when they start telling you that the policy is already popular much more popular than you might imagine much more popular than available evidence. It indicates it is so curious how often the advocates of a policy say Medicare for all or tax cuts for the top ten percent or this or that military gary intervention or raising the Pentagon budget or lowering the Pentagon budget or the defense of Marriage Act. They'll often tell you that that's the right policy. It's wise and good but also also despite other indications people like it it's popular maybe even secretly popular Medicare for all does not poll. Well that is not the end. End All and be all of the issue. There are reasons to pursue medicare for all despite the fact that Medicare for all is less popular than less. I am vicious proposals but notice what I said. Despite the fact that Medicare for all is less popular than less ambitious proposals. I want to establish my credentials and tell you some Pol policy that I favour these all. Have something in common ready I favor registering handguns. A sixty day waiting period for guns I favorite laws allowing abortion to be performed by a doctor at any stage in a pregnancy. I want you and the death penalty I favor the Rian Franchise -ment of ex-felons ex-felons in Kentucky and favor eliminating pennies. What all those things have in common is that they are unpopular? And I am not here to lie to you to trick you. You too somehow assert. Oh no they really are popular. Just because I think they're good. Policies advocates abolishing the death penalty can cite so many polls goals about changing attitudes different circumstances where localities abolish the death penalty. And it worked out and governor is abolish the death penalty and they they were popular but the evidence. It's clear it's just clear. which weren't this way? But the death penalty remains significantly favored by more Americans than not same with every policy. I cited I'm in favor of all of them. Americans aren't pennies are close YouGov asked would you favor oppose eliminating the penny coin so that the lowest value coin available be the nickel sixteen percent said favor strongly eighteen percent said favor somewhat where the opposition opposed strongly or somewhat was fifty one percent and fourteen were in short. So it's close but by my auntie penny policy policy is not popular. I do wonder if I were a supporter of Medicare for all. Would I convinced myself that everyone else agreed with me at politico on Kyle Kalinski cited this statistic when you look at a Medicare for all pole and it says seventy percent or in favor of it and even fifty two percent of Republicans are in favor of it. It's really a political no brainer in the direction of Pfeiffer it what seventy percent are in favour. Seventy percent of Americans are in favor now. It's she's not true. According to the Kaiser Family Foundation's latest healthcare tracking poll. A small majority of adults. Say they would favor. Putting all Americans. In a single national health the care plan fifty one percent favor. forty-seven percent opposed but the margin shrunk significantly from the beginning of the year when it was fifty seven percent backing the proposal. Thirty seven percent opposed as my colleague on his broker. On this Jordan. Weisman wrote the phrase Medicare for all tended to poll well early on but its popularity tended to drop once respondents were told it would require them to give up. Private Insurance has been polling on this over and over again they found that forty four percent of all the Democrats preferred Medicare for all the popularity goes down when another option is introduced in the conversation. Introducing the poll and since every debate. We're seeing there's more than one option introduced Biden and Brundige do not favor Medicare for all. They'll tell you so. Buddha judge calls it medicare for all those who you want it but once you mentioned that it's accurate to say that Medicare for all is less popular than popular. What about this idea that fifty two percent of Republicans gins want Medicare for all? I tracked it down. It comes from a Paul from Hill TV the Hill newspaper. They apparently have some. It's not a TV channel. They play videos whether you want them to or not and a polling company called Harris Ex. I guess that's the regular Harris poll to the extreme. Jim Harris is an online poll. They are not even in five thirty. Eight database of pollsters their parent company or against Legacy Company Harris poll that rates a C.. Plus but none of that even matters. I'm not trying to discredit pollster per se. They don't think they have much credit. Just listen to the phrasing of their poll. Would you support or oppose providing medicare for every American or. If I was asked that I'd say I support it. Who Doesn't want Medicare when when they reach that age I mean they've been paying into it? I think it's long to deny Americans Medicare see the problem with that ridiculous question. Framing sort of believe in the idea of Medicare for all good idea. Are you required to by that. It's a popular idea. I guess you are. I haven't met too many people who will say I. I like it but I know most people don't I actually haven't heard anyone say that on a TV station after one of these debates. I don't know maybe we're only listening adding to advocates. And they feel that by dishonestly framing support or siting poles favorable to themselves that it's more likely to get it passed and then we'll have it and then people will like it's a good policy so do whatever you can end justifying the means as journalists not an activist. I have no qualms about acknowledging that some ideas even some ideas that I favor or unpopular. Not that unpopular is positive or disqualifying. It's just a statement of fact a statement of what my fellow Americans can think about this issue every idea. That's good and proper is not good in popular. Same phenomenon is taking hold with Elizabeth. Warren candidacy at large Elizabeth. Warren is doing quite well. She's at or near the top in all the national polls and in most of the early states six days ago the New York Times published this this headline and the poll the packed it up. Warren leads tight Iowa race as Biden Fades poll finds and the warrant. Supporters Re tweeted that exuberantly currently yet a couple of days ago when there was a poll that showed warrant doing less. Well then president trump in key swing states and that Paul was also by the New York Times and Sienna those same people dismissed it and shouted a why. Would you trust the centrists at the New York Times for your polling. Data centrist pundits bits. I think over read that poll. Jonathan Chait in New York magazine ran an article. Under the headline new poll shows. Democratic candidates have been living living in a fantasy world whereas progressive types like the activist Jess McIntosh and the activists David Atkins activists slashed writer journalist. They tweeted out a different poll with different results. That showed Warren doing better in swing states. Only that poll was not taken by the New York Times and Sienna Sienna College but was taken by data for progress which is a very progressive polling firm its head John. mcelwee hosted the gist. He's the Justice Democrat he's an AO. See backer an activist but his results tend to who would have guessed advance. His overall worldview worldview. I'm not here to argue to look at the poll and the data for progress poll and The New York Times CNN. Paul I'm not here to argue one's right and one's wrong. I'm here to criticize arguments mints. which all flow from the way that the activists want their policy to be regarded? It's already regarded as popular. Watch out from the handcuffing. Coughing of we believe in the rightness of this stance to we believe in the popularity of this stance. Especially when there's lots of other evidence that the stance is not as popular as all that if you spent a lot of time denigrating the New York Times result that showed Warren trailing trump by a little in Wisconsin. I mean it showed trump beating warren by two percent in Wisconsin. I mean this whole literally showed Biden beating trump by two percent of Wisconsin and Warren losing losing to trump by two percent Wisconsin. That's so hard to believe that that needs to be rebutted especially because data for progress. Paul says otherwise. Why ever so slightly? I don't know which or if either of these polls are right. I do know that both the polls are within a margin of error of about four and behalf so that the polls themselves are saying that either Biden or trump or warren could very well win in Wisconsin and oh by the way the elections in a year her. Are you doing a service by dismissing the notion that it's really quite possible in five states that all voted for trump in two thousand sixteen. That trump is slightly more popular than Elizabeth. Warren you're doing a lot of work to scoff at that notion put forth by New York Times Sienna College which poll and by the way that notion happens to align with your own preferences in one way. This whole thing's been an argument about a subjective. Take on a snapshot. That's within the margin of error. I get that but globally would it really is an argument about examining the biases of arguers. When considering the argument we should take into account what is good which should also know what is popular? We shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good but we should also not automatically mistake the good for the popular. And that's it for today show that was produced by Daniel schrader. WHO believes? There's a narrow corridor between self awareness. And a smug unwillingness doing this to change because hey it's just me you know me GonNa put Shatner in that Corridor Christina Joseph just producer. There's a narrow corridor between a good old fashioned red sauce Italian place and is the owner doing some lady and the tramp reenactment here the gist. We believe in the narrow corridor between not forgetting where where you came from and going on and on and on about how that used to be A. Nathan's I used to be a Ramada. With
'My Dad Wrote A Porno' Podcast; Marketing Infant Formula To Black Women
"From NPR in WBZ. I'm Tanya Moseley. I'm Jeremy Hobson. It's here and now for the third time in history. The House is expected to vote on Wednesday to impeach a a sitting president to articles of impeachment. Pass the House Judiciary Committee along party lines on Friday with all democrats voting in favor and all Republicans voting against it doesn't doesn't look like the Democrats will have that kind of unity in the full House. Joining us now is Danny Weis. His former chief of staff to Nancy Pelosi the house speaker and a senior fellow at the Century Foundation. That's a progressive. Think tank in Washington. Danny how many Democrats do you expect will vote against the articles of impeachment. We don't know the actual number now. That Congressman van drew is indicated. He's going to become a Republican. There are still probably a small number of Democrats could be anywhere from one or two five or six but Those numbers will not be known until a little bit later from now. was that a surprise to you. About Jeff Van drew of New Jersey. Who is leaving the Democratic Democrat Party? he is one of just two Democrats who voted against an impeachment inquiry back in November. It was a surprise. I Know Congressman van drew had the opportunity ready to sit with him for about forty five minutes right after he was elected when he came into visit Speaker Pelosi in November of twenty eighteen. And we had a great talk and learned a lot about his district in his thoughts thoughts and I was surprised. His district is not as conservative as some other democratic members Who have not indicated that they're going to oppose the impeachment articles and who did vote for the impeachment inquiry so it was a little bit of a surprise in that regard? Well if the Democrats lose as you say maybe five or six other people. Do you think that that hurts the case for impeachment. It doesn't hurt the case for impeachment if you get A substantial number of Democrats voting for it it It will still send a very clear message that the president violated the Constitution by asking Ukraine to influence the two thousand twenty presidential election in his favor. I think the reason for the Democrats going forward regardless of the fact that you might lose a few Democrats is that for the speaker and I think think also for the majority of the Democrats in the House. They believe this rises above politics. This is about the constitution. Having made the decision to go forward with impeachment because they believed it was necessary now. The challenge for the speaker and for the Democrats is to manage the politics going forward but the decision to impeach wasn't based on politics. Why do you think we're not hearing the same about a number of Republicans who might Cross party lines and vote in favor of impeachment there are a number of house. Republicans who won just barely. It's really one of the most fascinating things about The politics of President Donald Trump. I mean he has a total lock on the Republican Party. I don't think even the speaker anticipated. Just how much of a lock he would have when she first announced That she believed impeachment should be carried out when the evidence is overwhelming coming and compelling and bipartisan I think she believed that in fact there would be Republicans on board as well but the president. He's a very unusual president and he has total control control of his party. I want to finally ask you about the Senate trial. Senate Minority Leader Chuck. Schumer has asked for four witnesses with direct knowledge of the events. Senate Majority Leader Republican Mitch. McConnell has said he'll follow the president's lead as he sets up the process for a trial. Do you think that the Democrats are making a mistake by putting the whole impeachment thing in Mitch. McConnell's hands so quickly. There are some on the left who believe the democrats should just hold onto it not have the vote yet and drag out the process. Keep the investigation going my sense. It's better to get it done quickly for a couple of reasons one is we clearly saw this with the Muller report the attention span for the American public is limited. They've been asked to to pay a lot of attention to the president's transgressions his corrupt activities Charges against him the investigation. Not sure how much longer you can ask the public to pay attention to this in a way that's helpful and then of course The two thousand election is already underway. And we'll be even even more so Next year it would be better to have the impeachment trial behind the people running for office and for people trying to make sense of the election because the election as as you know it will not just be about impeachment it will be about healthcare it will be about climate it will be about gun safety and Immigration and national security from my standpoint. You'd want the public to be able to have an opportunity to really sift through those other issues as well. One ask you actually one more thing. which is that as you know? The president tweeted out something about Nancy Pelosi and her teeth falling out. Do you think that. How do you think she reacts when she sees something like that well takes a deep breath? She probably laughs. Absolute Bit She gets these comments Directed at her all the time from the president and from the entire Republican political apparatus. Bradtha says you know in the twenty eighteen campaign I think I don't know the exact number one hundred and fifty million dollars worth of ads. Were spent Vilifying in her and demonizing her. So she's very adept at Hearing those things said about her and continuing her work she is an expert at compartmentalizing activities. He's so she's very good at keeping those things separate you recall. I think you probably talked about it. The comments you made the other day when she was asked if she hated the president and she said that she doesn't hate anyone that was really true. She doesn't have time for hatred. She has time to get the work done and then go about other things in other other. Departments that is Danny Weis. Who is the former chief of staff to Nancy? Pelosi now a senior fellow at the Century Foundation. Thank you for joining us. Thank you to India now now where there have been days of protests some of them deadly over a controversial new law that gives citizenship to non Muslims who enter India illegally to flee religious persecution and several neighboring countries some of them Muslim majorities. India's Prime Minister Modi today appealed for calm unbear- San Toroshin with the BBC joins us now from Delhi unbear- San We've talked about this law on the show before but remind us again. What exactly does it do? The Indian Goldman in past this new law called citizenship amendment. Bill Act last week that has cleared widespread protests across India it has got a few elements which many people disagree with for example it says non Muslim people from neighboring countries like Afghanistan Pakistan and Bangladesh and if they flee those countries he's due to religious persecution and their application for citizenship will be fast tracked. They'll get easy access to get citizenship. The Muslims have been excluded that is triggered anger among a wide variety of people in India. Say India is a democracy and you cannot discriminate. People on the basis of religion on the other hand India's northeast where Bangladeshis a neighboring country for the states and Osama and other places where they accused there have been lot of infiltration or people coming over from Bangladesh. Over the years they've settled and because of this new law they're going to get citizenship that will affect the demography the region of pilots within people having feared about for example in the US a migration from Latin America affecting things in the US the same way people in awesome. Feel that you know. Foreigners outsiders coming in taking over the land and jobs yes. This is also controversial in part because Prime Minister Modi represents the Hindu Hindu nationalist party. Can you talk about that context. Many people in India believe that The new citizenship law is favoring mostly Hindus who came from Bangladesh during the country's civil war in one thousand nine hundred ninety one for example they point out that the Hindu population in the sixty seventies was much higher and because of religious persecution institution. Many people came over to India in Assam state and they're able to get Naturalization Process Naturalization Papers so this is going to benefit tolu mostly the Hindu community because they're very tiny number of other communities like the Buddhists and Christians and Jane's they live in these three countries but what people people are asking is if you are really concerned about religious persecution in these countries then you should also think about Muslim. Religious minorities like accommodates in Pakistan. Gaston they claim that about religious persecution in those countries so that is why many people think this is a Hindu nationalist government. Apart of its agenda you know. It is promoting that Hindu and that is why it is implementing this is triggered anger among Hindu Muslims in India. And they think that the government is pushing for what take gender and if it continues they will be treated like second class citizens in their own country. And that's why you see a large number of Muslims taking part in protests in the past few you days however the government firmly denies those accusations on it does not legitimise that's what the government says these protests we've seen the pictures in read the stories. They've been pretty violent. Can you describe some of the demonstrations that have been going on across the country. The protest daunted last week in the north east of India because the people are so angry because people were telling various government leaders that they will not accept this citizenship. Act Bill but the government went ahead and passed a law despite eighteen conversations with various stakeholders that triggered violence in the northeastern part of India. At least a six people were killed in clashes with security forces and Internet Internet have been shut down for the past. Few days in this region on a number of people were injured and the army was deployed in the state up in a few areas and in the neighboring state of West Bengal tall also. Many roads were blocked and the protesters were out in the streets and at least a sixty six however in the capital Delhi The the protest was largely peaceful on Sunday. But the police say that Some fire engines and buses were set alight by the by a small group group of protesters. So the worry for the government is it spreads further to other Indian universities he becomes a student protests. Then they will find it difficult to contain being this you mentioned that Folks are are just upset because the law was passed without any consultation with the public What do protesters want the government meant to do right now? They want the law to be overturned but the government is firm. It keeps on saying that no this was long pending. It's long overdue. Even these non Muslim religious minorities cannot be accommodated in India barrels. They can go so this has to be implemented the BBC's unbear- Sin Toroshin Russian. Speaking with us from Delhi. Thank you so much. Thank you when it's too cold to you. Go out or to ICI to make it out of the driveway. Where do you go to find? Just the right movie. Just the right book just the right show to binge pop culture happy hour from. NPR can help W. keep warm and keep up at the same time. Join US twice a week on pop culture happy hour. Our next guests are the host of a popular ocular podcast. That is too racy for radio but we will keep it. PG although it will contain adult themes that's because the podcast is called. My Dad wrote a porno. It started with a guy named Jamie Morton in the UK who found out. His Dad was writing erotic literature about a saleswoman in the pots and pans industry. So Jamie and his friends decided to start a podcast on which they read one poorly written chapter each episode with their own commentary. Like this one. It's only took two rounds. Twenty five seconds to remove his clothes. Why is specific and also is everything help produce Kobe record twenty five seconds for all of his clothes? But for Belinda. 's chalupas octopus. Was It operates taking junction half seriously on and off there. It only took Peter Rounds Twenty five seconds to move its clothes and position himself beside Belinda on on the pet. Nothing says sexy like so eager anytime feel left ball saw it's become coming international. Hit with more than two hundred million downloads in. It's coming to the US for a cross country tour. This spring co host Jamie Morton James Cooper Analysis Levin. Join US now Welcome Jamie set the scene for us. You discovered that you're retired. Father had written erotic novel called. Belinda blinked under under a pen name which was rocky Flintstone. And was your first thought. I should start a podcast. Share this with the world. No my my my first I thought was I need just never imagine this thing to ever exist in the first place so I kind of just pretended that that didn't exist for a long time. And then my curiosity got the better of me and I started to actually read the book and that's when I realized that it was the most unintentionally hilarious novel if we're even going to call orval ever written and so I kind of took it to the pub to read it to my friends and that's kind of where the genesis of the Polka started because James analysts were two of the people at the pub. We we all kind of immediately got quite obsessed with this work of my dad and then as time went on we thought we should do something with it and it became madden and James announced. What did you think when you first heard hurt this in the bub well? It took us about three hours to read two paragraphs because we kept interrupting and kept laughing. which kind of create the basis for the podcast? Because that's all James and I do. I mean I personally just became awfully utterly obsessed with it and I mean we cleared the pub didn't we and then it was Christmas Christmas so we didn't see each other and it was all we could think about what we were texting each other about. So you could think we just really couldn't get out of our heads and that's when I guess we thought you know if we find it funny maybe other people will find it funny. It could be a very small niche group. There could be other people out there who think it's amusing so so evangelical weren't we because yeah we would recite it to people and James's riot felt like other people found fascinating for one of a better word the diplomatic as we did and so we give the waiting was and still is how unfazed Jamie seems to be by all when he first brought into the pub that time he's like my dad's done this thing. He's in the PSORIATIC novel. I mean I don't know what Alison I would think if parents have done the same but well your parents can spell so I was more concerned with the grammatical errors in the fact that it was just awfully written really well okay. I think we've reached the point where we should probably explain a little bit about stories. About which is. WHO's Belinda Jamie? And why does she work in the pots and pans industry question. So Belinda Blumenthal. His opportunists harrow inches. The Elizabeth Bennet Porn. We'd like to say and she is basically this kind of go. Getting into national sales director of a company called steals IOS pots and pans. Who as you say sal pots and pans and it's her job to kind of go around the world and sleep with as many clients as possible to take you'll all of these sales and these business deals? She gets us into many awkward scrapes. But the great thing about Belinda is that she's always in control of every single sexual scenarios in so she's actually kind of a feminist icon at this point people love for for that. Well he's written kind of she's pound sack. Well everyone in the folks seems to be Pound Sexual Watson Panzer. Everyone's super sex positive. Can you keeping in mind that you're speaking to an NPR audience and not the podcast audience. Where you can kind of say any words that you want to Give me just a little taste of what's in the book. Oh that's just so much I mean. There are kind of iconic lines at this point. The people shouted us in the street which is a bit disconcerting but things like her breasts hung freely freely like pomegranate one he had my dad describes one characters nipples is being as large as the three inch rivets which held the hull of the fateful titanic together quite imaginative. That you'll agree and tragic and someone's manhood is described as the flesh of mankind. So so he's nothing. If not a poet shall we say. Let's talk about the podcast you've gotten as we said over two hundred million downloads. You've got a book and an HBO Comedy Special so you're doing a live tour in the US this spring. Did it surprise you at all how big this became so quickly. I mean who knew the world was full of so many perverts. It's it's amazing yet. Of course I mean we just record this podcast in one of our kitchens. That's that's always done it so it does feel very strange when you're in the setup to think that millions of people around the world will listen to it. We kind of forgot. The podcast was global in the first place. We thought it was like local radio so we thought we postcode in London local to our kitchen so it was really exciting when you know people in America started listening things like that and they always I think our British accents help up kind of make the poor less severe people always say with the Ron Herman Harry of pornography so I think that really helps tap please Dot Russia how has your dad responded to his new found fame. Oh my goodness he loves her. I mean what's extraordinary about my dad is is that he didn't expect any of this. You know he was just writing in the garden shed completely anonymously under this rocky stone pseudonym and then for all vista happen because of that he came up with in a drunken haze. I can only imagine. It's really incredible that it's been so nice to do it with him and go on this journey with him because he's learning about things that that I do for a living. I'm learning more about him. And it's been really nice. Kind of bonding thing grosses that might sound. Initially about my dad's we've actually talk to people. We've really enjoyed the process together if you Dan thank us on the moves. WHA exactly exactly separate. You know what we're talking about the experience Dan and yeah he he just loves you know. He is such a generous person here. He's really been up for doing this. PODCAST and and isn't even that he is like impervious to offense. He loves the fact that we constantly are ripping him. He's the biggest wind up merchant. So he he kind of comes around and sees as and he says to Alison James. You're GONNA do better than that. You're GonNa hit me hard really really really time down. Do you think writing is getting any better. It's getting worse really by this. This song to be fair like what seems to have evolved at the books have gone on his plot has emerged. I mean it took about three books where we're at now is the Belinda blink as evolved in this kind of spy novel switch genres halfway through. You got bored clearly of the board of the sex kind of sometimes uh-huh forgets to put sex into chapters. So they'll be they'll be great chunks of books where he's like Oh and then they did it in the conference room okay next but I think it's ended up being what he's always wanted to be which is kind of James Bond novel. The Erotica was away in history. And Jamie what is your mom. Think about this. Oh my mum on a real evolution you know what. She's actually been great throughout. She never once said that. We couldn't do we. He played the first episode and she didn't listen as the shows kind of grown. She's kind of really understood how much people around the world love the show and I think that really brings her a lot of happiness that suddenly of done something to be proud over the word way she said something so sweet as well about about rocky Trip myself up. They're about to not use his pen name. She basically said didn't she that she was Iowa he's never told me how to live my life so I'm not going to tell them how to live here. She's I it wouldn't be the book because I would choose to read on the beach really proud of what's happened with it because I mean as much as we mark the words and we love you you know take the mic out of his stories. None of us have written a novel I none of us have sat down and done it so he's written. I don't even know how many now we're running in your book five. I say only this is. I'm going to say this is one of the most famous fictional series now in the world the definite avenue. Let's say that let's say that and also my mom you know when she has these these milestones of acceptance and the real one. The really big one for my mom mum was when Emma Thompson came on the show and outed herself as a fan of my dad's work and I think that was what mom was like. Oh my God if Dame Emma Thompson likes it then I kinda go to get IMPORTA now. Well I want to congratulate you all not just on the podcast but also on getting through an entire segment with us in a way that even a thirteen year old could listen. Listen we didn't that's right. JV Morton. James Cooper Alice Levine their host of the podcast. My Dad wrote Porno. They're going to be touring the United States with their show. Starting next March. Thanks to all of you for joining US offense and that moment woman with Emma Thompson we just heard about here it is. This is the first time that we've brought the podcast to somebody else's house. Usually we just do our so thank you for hosting. It could also be a veiled kind of got my boss. You could be a com- I'm trying to read your face. This is the first time we've had to leave the comfort of our and and come to somebody else's house. I don't know I can't tell you I. I think you would have come to us before what happened last week. Actually I have a sneaking suspicion the something's going to your head dame ah furniture slightly raised. I'm an inch about view. The tweet I robin young young thanking you for listening to the here now podcast and inviting you to contribute to support it at donate dot. MPR Dot org slash now for all the reasons that you listen here now helps you make sense of the world and when you donate to your NPR station. You're supporting the journalism that brings context and perspective to the news and conversations with people making a difference in the arts music and culture so please make a donation to your NPR station today and that investment will come right back to your ears just go to donate NPR dot org slash now we're building NPR and its member stations. Thanks to you now. Let's get back to the news. Pro Athletes can seem superhuman. But they need to rest just like everyone else. Just how much rest is now at the heart of a debate swirling around the NBA with some teams benching their star players during certain regular season games to keep them healthy for the playoffs. Aaron Mozelle member station. WHYY Y Y reports it's cold load. Management Sounds Wonky but it's rooted in basic medicine. Andrew Occurs More. You do things in the more activities you do you and then if you put more load on tissue tissue gets damaged Dr Thomas Trojan leads. The Sports Medicine Program at Drexel University. He says load management is a sound way to preserve to leg tendons that get a lot of wear and tear during an NBA season the Achilles tendon the tough band of tissue that connects your calf muscles to your heels and the patellar tendon which runs from your kneecaps to your shinbones when a person goes down and they will Jump for a rebound. That's an exposure. That's a landing and then they'll the trouble up the court and do a jump shot that's another exposure so those type of things. It's not just a moving on the court but it's that explosion and they do it frequently much more frequently than others. Sports Lewd Management has been part of the game for about a decade. But it's recently become more prevalent and controversial in part because more teams arresting their superstars. The players that drive the NBA. The guys fans pay to watch compete in person among them. Lebron James Steph curry into certain seven foot center for the Philadelphia Seventy sixers pass for the sixers Joel embiid. NBA is one of the League's top defensive players and the Lynch pin two the sixers championship aspirations. which after a number of miserable seasons don't feel so much like a pipe ape dream anymore? The sixers rest the big man most when the team has a back to back games in two nights embiid typically sits out one of them coaches say they do that as part of a larger strategy for keeping players healthy so the best team possible is competing when the all important postseason rolls around fans still have reservations evasions now Iraq. Before we sent home game in South Philly. I catch up with season ticket holder. Adult this bay. He he says giving players time off so they can stay strong makes sense and that load management could very well help the sixers win the team's first title in more than three decades. His problem problem is that casual fans may feel cheated if they show up to the arena and find their favorite player wearing a tailored suit on the sideline instead of Jersey. Out On the court. We you just talking about this on the train. And we said that when they do their low management. They should do it when they're on the road home. This this is cheap. The fans all players they also struggles with the idea that men in peak physical fitness are sitting out several games that season at sixty nine. He's watched plenty of players. Great players like Alan Iverson and DR J. Compete and Win Without doing that. Is there any part of you. That's like what do you mean. These guys can't play every night. I I WANNA keep it clean. Auntie Winder leads the sportscenter. The Dixon Sports Business Initiative at the University of Pennsylvania. He says it's too early to say whether load management will be at slam dunk or a flop for the NBA. A potentially game changing tradeoff may have to play out I. He says the the gain is more likelihood of winning championship making progress in the playoffs. The losses benching your stars upsetting fans who come in a regular basis and turning the regular season into Woah farce. Weiner's says that something. Nobody wants for here. And now I'm Erin Moselle in Philadelphia. The Centers for Disease Control and other health organizations have long championed the virtues of breastfeeding but back in nineteen forty six. An effort began Dan by the Saint. Louis based company pet milk to market formula to a growing black American market. And they did this. What is being called a brazen act of exploitation then using four identical baby girls known as the full squads to market their products and while pet milk made millions the girls ended up in poverty ready for University of Hawaii? Associate Professor Andrea Freeman. The full squad story is part of a larger history of black women discouraged from breastfeeding she. She intertwines these stories in her. New Book skimmed breastfeeding race and injustice. And she joins me now to talk about it. Welcome thank you well Andrea you begin in this book with the birth of the quads Mary. Louise Marianne Mary Alice and Mary. Catherine quads were rare back then. Natural quads are still very rare today so of course they immediately became famous and their exploitation began at birth with their doctor. Fred cleaner tell us it's more about some of the ways he did that. Fred cleanser was kind of an unusual doctor. He had a theory about the healing powers of vitamin I see so right on the day of their birth. He injected them with vitamin C.. And he did that every day for years afterwards. The next the thing that he did was take away the privilege of naming them. Yes I mentioned their names and their names are actually because of him yeah. He decided that he was going to name them and he gave them all the first name Mary and then the names of his wife daughter Aunt and mother he then decided to auction off the rights to a formula company to use for their promotional materials. And let's talk about that He began bidding for the rights is to be the baby's corporate sponsor. Pet Milk was the winner. What did they agree to provide for the babies in their parents? The primary thing they agreed to was milk so that milk was their major source of nutrition and Diet. They said that they would give them a nurse which was was a nurse chosen by Dr Kleiner so that he could retain control over the quads and to keep using them for his experiments governments. They bought a house for the family. which in those days of course would have been a really big deal? But they bought the house from Dr Kleiner's father-in-law in law on land. That was very hilly and barren and impossible to really farm so every part of the deal benefited Dr Kleiner at her and didn't really do too much for the sisters and the family. Yeah as you write the full. Squads were born at a time when companies were just starting to market to black Americans. Talk a little bit about how the girls were used to actually promote pet milk there were featured in a lot of magazine. Advertisements is minutes they did performances or they did music and dancing. They went on Television Day. Went went in parades. They did society events. Yeah this story. The quad story is important because it brings us to some of the larger issues that you explore in your book as you write. Black women have the lowest breastfeeding rates in the United States and one of the contributing. The factors is that for decades. Many black American women were forced because of economic circumstances to work outside of the home in this ties into the quads because they were really selling two moms. Hey here's this way that you can nourish your child and basically the undercurrent was that we know because you won't be breastfeeding. This is the alternative and that assumption. The black women won't breastfeed is still with us even through changing economic times. I mean they. They haven't changed that much. We still have a lot of disparity in employment and income and wealth that makes it necessary for many black women into work. And then you write in your book about some of the barriers that black women face when they enter medical establishments hospitals learning learning how to breastfeed whether they're given the tools to breastfeed. What did you learn there? There is an assumption by healthcare professionals. That black women simply will not breastfeed feed so many times they're not given the training and the support that white women get when they're in the hospital they're immediately given free formula formula and encourage to just bottle feed with formula instead of trying for most people. It's difficult to breastfeed at I. It's not something acting natural even though I think it's often presented that way. It's something that takes work takes learning how to do it. And if those resources are not provided then it simply becomes impossible. One of the hardest parts to get through in your book was the chapter. On how enslaved black women were forced to wet nurse Swipe babies which of course meant that. They had to forego breastfeeding their own. It sort of sounds counterintuitive but not breastfeeding you say was seen as a way for black women to reclaim their bodies. Can you explain more for us on that idea. Yes the idea that. During Slavery Black Women had no choice about nursing white children and breastfeeding in general was controlled. Outside of their own bodies sometimes can put people into position where they feel like to be liberated and to be free and to be self determinative it. It is a better choice not to breastfeed the full squads. I mean they were beautiful babies. They went on to work with pet milk throughout throughout their childhood. What happened to them? They always had a difficult life even when they were born and they were celebrities they were I alienated because of Dr Kleiner even from their own siblings so they had six siblings but Dr Leonard did not want them to play with them to spend time with them then when they turned six. Dr Kleiner went to a judge and ask the judge to a point the nurse that he had given them. As has there guardian. The judge said yes and the sisters moved away from their family and from that time on barely saw them they had a difficult cool time in school because they have so many demands put on them by pet milk to suddenly make appearances. Jump Out of school jumped back in and by the time hi they got to high school and college. They were very behind so they weren't successful. They went to college for two years and then they were asked is to leave and at that point. They're guardians. Move them up to outside New York because it was their dream to perform. They had a small nightclub. Bob Act but it never took off so they worked in factories and nursing homes in the most tragic part of this is all four were diagnosed with breast cancer cancer when they were in their forties. Three of them died. By the age of fifty. Five Catherine was the only one who lived into her seventies and she blamed Dr Cleaners owners might have been treatments for she and her sisters cancers. Do you agree with that. It's really hard to tell. It might have also had something to do you with this. Diet of the formula through they're not just infancy but also kind of toddler hood which is very unhealthy. So we have the experiments we have this diet heavy in sugar and fat and we have the trauma that they experienced I so I really don't know why they perceive these diagnoses. I do know that it's highly unusual for multiples to all get breast breast cancer. But I think we'll never know what the real medical cause was. You make this through line from slavery to then then the quads and the marketing of Formula Two black women bring us to the present day. Why did you want to to write this book? I think that a lot of people see breastfeeding as a choice and because of the culture that we have around breastfeeding now as reflective of good mothering and good parenting people interpret not breastfeeding as bad mothering. Bad parenting for black women a lot of the time. There's no choice involves. That's just not a decision because there's so many structural and social factors that make get impossible yet. This circumstance is socially interpreted as evidence of being a bad mother. And I think it's important for people to understand that this is a structural problems is not a personal choice issue Andrea Freeman's book is skimmed. Breastfeeding race is an injustice Andrea. Thank you for joining us. Thank you Tanya script to South Bend Indiana Mayor Pete. Buddha judge has been at the top of recent polls in Iowa and new. NPR A PR PBS. Marist poll out today puts him in fourth place nationally. At thirty seven he would be the youngest president ever if elected and he has used his age to to pitch himself to voters here is on. MSNBC in March bullets reality is when you take one look at me. My face is my message right. A lot of this is simply the idea that we need generational change That we need more voices stepping up from generation that has so much at stake in the decisions that they're being made right now. One problem for for his campaign is that many millennials don't like him a writer on the Website Jessica called him a boomer wrapped up. In a millennials clothing. Derek Thompson has been writing writing about this. He's senior editor at the Atlantic joins us from Washington as he does each Monday. Hi Derek Hey jam so we heard Buddha judge say there that his message is his face meaning his age but why isn't his age helping him with younger voters or what are the polls saying about that. Yeah it's a really interesting situation. His face might be his message but his face. This doesn't predict his support. Buddha judge would be the youngest president ever elected in American history but his rise in the polls has nothing to do with millennial support in a recent Quinnipiac poll for example Buddha judge placed second among voters over fifty second to Biden but among his own generation mation essentially among people under thirty five. He got just two percent support just to. That's basically within the margin of error so effectively. He's running as is a kind of mini Biden. Essentially if you look at his numbers but that's really strange. Because he's essentially half the age of our former vice president well and is the reason that he's not attracting as much support from millennials. That he's seen as too moderate. He's gotten criticism for example from the left for his health care proposal so which is more moderate than the one being pushed by Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. He's in favor of what he calls Medicare for all who want it. Here's Senator Elizabeth Warren criticizing him about about that in the October debate whenever someone. Here's the term Medicare for all who want it understand what that really means it's Medicare for all who can afforded Derek. Is this an issue. That millennials in particular upset about absolutely There's several issues I I think. A lot of young people especially young progressive activists. Don't like him him because he's not a democratic socialist like they are. He is more of a moderate liberal capitalist. The other reason I don't think they like him is that they get the sense that he's not particularly genuine. This is someone who initially seemed to support Medicare for all and now openly criticizes the effect that it would have on private insurance employment. I'm and essentially he said I want Medicare for all who can afford it or all who need it. which is essentially more like a public option? He also initially proposed a lot. More radical government reforms like packing the Supreme Court or removing the FILIBUSTER. But now he's really recast himself more as a moderate unifier in the In the Biden Mold so essentially. Yeah I think a lot of people from the young left. Look at him and they yes. He wrecking the he'd might look like someone that they might know. Or you know go out to beers with but the fact that he initially seemed to advertise advertise himself as being on the left but now clearly is running in the moderate lane. I think to them strikes them as kind of a first degree phoniness that as a result has encouraged them to sort of heap contempt. vitual on him why is Bernie Sanders. Seventy eight and the oldest candidate in the race. The leading candidate candidate among among voters under thirty right. We'll look. It's not a coincidence that the one candidate in this race who calls himself a socialist gets the biggest support. Among young people people who are decidedly more likely to call themselves Socialists Bernie. Sanders has been to the left of his own party for a long time. Essentially it's been kind of third party party candidate domiciled within the Democratic Party and in many ways the young progressive activists left is itself kind of third party in the United States which which is domiciled within a broader Democratic Party which is more moderate and liberal. So essentially that that I think is is what's going on here. This is effectively about politics. You have a young young generation that sees itself as a kind of socialist left and so of course it supports that Democrat that Democrat. WHO's most likely to use the S. word when describing himself the S. Word Socialist Derek? Young people historically do not turn out in high numbers. So how important will they be in this. Primary and in the general general election will be important. I mean you look at at Bernie Sanders support. It isn't growing that much nationally but it is steady. He's got a huge a a base of support among this younger generation. which as you said historically does not vote at the same rates that older generations tend to come out out at at the same time though it's really important to point out that the generation that is really motivated it voted much more in two thousand eighteen and it did in two thousand fourteen if you look midterm from two midterm and so Realistically you would think all right well if that if that four year increase between two thousand fourteen two thousand eighteen shows up again between two thousand sixteen and twenty twenty. You know you're looking at a large group that is motivated by the tectonic shift. That's happened since the great recession That they WANNA come out and support their candidate and as a result in a fragmented primary. Hi Mary where you've Got Biden and Warren and Sanders and Buddha judge will maybe just maybe this this block of young progressive activists who Unite Unite Behind Bernie Sanders might be able to push him to a plurality in the Democratic primary that other candidates can't quite muster that is Derek Thompson senior editor editor at the Atlantic Derek. Thanks as always thank you and here now is a production of NPR. Wb are an association with the BBC. World Service. I'm Jeremy Hobson. Im Tanya Moseley. This is here now. I'm Jeremy Hobson. The Democrats running for president will hold their last debate of the year this week as a new national national poll shows Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders at the top of the pack the newcomer to the race former New York City mayor. Michael Bloomberg won't be at the debate but he's huge adspend. Starting starting to make a difference. We'll check in on twenty twenty next time on here now.
An NPR Correspondent's Immigrant Experience: 'American Dreams, American Nightmares'
"This message comes from on point sponsor indeed. If you're hiring with indeed you can post a job in minutes set up screener questions than zero in on your short list of qualified defied candidates using an online dashboard get started at indeed dot com slash. NPR podcast from NPR we are and WBZ Boston Magnasco Birdie and this is on point aren't these Shahani story embodies the American dream a first generation Indian American aren't the journey from her working class neighborhood in Queens New York to a scholarship at one of the country's most elite prep schools then the University of Chicago and then Harvard led her to an NPR. We are byline covering the world's biggest tech companies but within her own family lies the great paradox of America's immigration system the Shahani's I lived in the United added states as undocumented immigrants the fragility of that early experience was impressed upon her at a very young age but Shahani says that greater security did not come when her family got their green cards. A few accidental missteps landed her father in prison the fear of deportation hanging over him the fragility of that experience -perience forever changed him and Change Shahani's family so this hour on point Arthur Shahani's American dreams an American nightmares and you can join us. If you are a green card holder right now. Do you feel secure in your place in American society or has someone you know who is a green card holder someone in your family family perhaps been deported. How did that impact you and your loved ones join us anytime on twitter and facebook at on point radio and Arty Shahani. Johnny joins us today from New York. You have heard her reporting most definitely. She's an NPR correspondent based in Silicon Valley. Her New Memoir is here. We are American and dreams American nightmares. We have an excerpt of it at one point radio. Dot Org RV welcome to the program. Thank you so much for having me great to have you. I first of all want to ask you if when you decided to write this book about your family and particularly about your father. Did you have any hesitation tation in writing it as givens word of the great controversies. The nation has experienced. I'm experiencing about immigration right now. The hesitation came in the years before I finally decided I was going to write it. there was a lot of hesitation like I had spent my life life pretty much from age sixteen to thirty with my father's legal problems constantly hanging over our heads you already gave great summary of my family's trajectory into America once we got here and we thought that we were established here. Dad opened up a store He actually opened up a small business on the exact same street where he used to shovel snow for four dollars an hour. So you know I achieving my dream being the precocious kid in school and he was his own business owner small business owner one day dad got arrested. He was at rikers island and apparently he he had sold watches and calculators to the Cali drug cartel shocking. I was as a kid interested in becoming the prosecutor side was actually ashamed of Dad. I didn't know how to wrap my head around my ideals of justice and what my father had been accused of and then what slowly happened over the years this was by no means immediate what slowly happened was that while data agreed to take a guilty plea because his lawyer urged him to the eight months and tints it was supposed to be eight months and he was supposed to put the matter behind him. It ended up spiraling into legal legal problems that lasted until I was thirty and I basically grew up in the shadow of a legal legal case that would not go away and that seemed determined to destroy my family and I wanted to keep my family together well if I may I mean just we can slow down a little bit here because we have an hour and I do want short. I mean the the beauty of your book is the detail with which you tell this story because it's true. It's a true I it's a glimpse into the story of of American family that is lived by millions of people here so let's let's go back. Let's go back to the start. Okay what I brought your family to the United States the I'll let you sound like my dad telling me to slow down. Thank you what brought us here. you know. I did not no the real story of why we came here until I stopped to write this memoir and I asked mom hey you and dad would always say we came here for a better life for you. Kids what does that even mean and it was kind of made no sense to me because while my family is originally from India I was born in Morocco and we had a relatively stable life there so I thought why would my parents leave relative stability and come to America and choose to live undocumented with three children. I thought that was crazy. I mean you know that that is a lot of risk not him with me. Came originally on a tourist visa right correct. We came on tourist visas which we overstate how was a infant or a toddler the time and mom. Tom told me and I had never known this before that she apparently back home was dealing with a really really difficult extended ended family situation. She didn't call it abuse and that's not a word that was really in circulation at the time that she was going through it but they lived in what what many of us will know is a joint it family with many extended relatives and mom and dad loved each other a lot and my father was a gentleman but not everyone in the clan was and something pretty horrible happened. and my mom tried to take her own life. She swallowed pills. She didn't want to wake up again. I didn't know this before. I didn't know that my mom attempted suicide at tell you when she told me it shocks me because my mom is one of the most resilient human beings. I know so to learn that she had reached that level of desperation was it just was incredibly painful. We'll she came back to eventually my father agreed that we would they would take the family and come to America because coming to America was easier than moving across the street in some ways. I just wanted to say that there's so many parts parts of your story that I kind of intrinsically feel like I understand because my parents are obviously immigrants from India as well and there's something about what it takes sort of the fortitude and the resilience that it takes to be an immigrant rights to to leave everything you know that's familiar even when it's very very hard that familiarity full of heart and dark things to come to another country because I just feel like it makes sense to me that you didn't know these things before because I there's a lot that I didn't know about my parents because for forty years forty five years they were so focused on making their lives here as Americans yeah I also think that's the tricky thing about how trauma works right because Verret so much to be learned in the pain that we go through and the trials that we face but they're hard to talk about and so they often get lost so I think in part it's our parents or our own lives. We're so busy trying to make it but in part it's just painful to revisit well and when you in growing up in Queens your mother was I mean like you said she was very resilient and an incredibly active also Yeah Yeah Yeah my parents actually together a spoke six languages or six and a half languages you could say though they lacked formal education. My mom just finished grade school but she is a sponge for languages when we landed in Queens which was one of the most diverse zip codes on earth when I was growing up one one three five five. I'm incredibly proud of I remember growing up and there was Beverly Hills Nine O. to anno- and that became like a button and I was like one one three five five. That's the real deal but you know basically we were working in class. United Nations every nationality represented mom could speak to a lot of them and she basically became an organizer without even calling it that or knowing that it was that what she helps for example Central American Day labourers and the leaders of a of a Hindu temple. We'll get along with each other because the Hindu temple didn't like the day labor is standing on the corner waiting for work and she could speak each of their language and help them to get each other and she she did amazing work that is AFFEC- note in in most people's lives that a prominent factor in mind will tell us more about your dad than because he you left India I when he was just barely in his teens right yeah. My father was unfortunately faded to start life over and over and over again. It's funny but you know we some of us. Believe in reincarnation. I feel like that had to keep re living life over and over in this just one this one time he was given he was uprooted from his home as a child in nineteen forty seven and there was a horrifically violence partition of India and Pakistan when the British decided to leave the subcontinent that they'd colonized colonized. They left very haphazardly quickly. horrific violence sued and millions of people had to leave their homes. My father as well as my mother were among them. Dad was old enough to remember it. As a child after his family fled from their native Karachi down into India crotch now being in Pakistan Gaston Dad by the time he was a teenager had to leave the subcontinent altogether to become a migrant worker in Beirut so he works in Beirut Lebanon. He sat money back home to his family. he actually I. I learned this When Dad was in jail. Let rikers at which is where I really got to start knowing who my father was he was not able to attend his own father's funeral because he had to keep working and being you know continente way to support his family and from Beirut. He traveled around Northern Africa and the Middle East Mom and dad met in Casablanca where I my siblings were bored and then we came over here and it's just what I say he. It's like every time when you're a migrant you have to pick up and go and pick up and go and pick up and go. You're not seen for who you are in the new place that you come to your seen as the alien as a foreigner as an undeserving as someone to be suspected in many cultures not every and so- dad was unfortunately personally forced to keep starting over and I just know it in my steps you know I appreciate how graciously you describe the steps. I've taken in my own life and I imagine what would it look like for me. If every time I wanted to make a pivot people had no idea what my backstory was and it was irrelevant what we're talking this hour with Arthur Johnny. She has a new book out. A new memoir called here. We are American dreams American nightmares. It's the story her immigration story story her family's immigration story in America of course you know arthis work because she is NPR's correspondent from Silicon Valley as well but when we come back we'll hear a lot got more about what happened to her father and how that shaped her family's life. This is on point. This message comes from on point sponsor rocket mortgage by quicken loans introducing Rate Shield approval. If you qualify and if rates go up your rate stays the same but if rates go down your rate also drops to learn more go to rocketmortgage dot com slash on point. I write professor mccown here. Are you ready for an ask me another challenge challenge all everyone. It's fear Eisenberg in this episode. We talk with actor. Matthew mcconaughey listened to. NPR's asked me me another the answer to life's funnier questions. This is on point a magnet Birdie. We're talking this hour with art the Shahani honey she's NPR's correspondent in Silicon Valley but we're talking with her this hour because of her new memoir called here we are American dreams American nightmares and it here families immigration stories the ups and the downs as well and how even after securing green cards there is a fragility to the immigrant Clinton experience that her family experienced and we want to know what you think. You're a green card holder right now. Do you feel confident about your place in American. Society now arthey when you were growing up those early years in Queens you weren't exactly living in the lap of luxury tells a little bit about a about about growing up there yeah I mean I grew up in apartment 401. That's how I remember it. That's what everyone called it a the building with over one hundred units you know we had a pretty crummy super who didn't do anything. MOM's first foray into organizing and making things things better just started right at home because literally you know New York gets seriously cold in the winter and we wouldn't have heat and there wouldn't be hot water the pipes would freeze. He's things would break down. addio. Mom had a habit of talking to our neighbors and hearing out with other people were going through and bringing people together you know trying to affect change but yeah. I mean it. Was it sucked it was it was small. It was dirty I go back doc and I look at pictures of it and I'm like wow we really came from there. You know like I just look at it. 'cause it looked like we were under the thumb of a slum. Lord you you know and you've mentioned this and they're very few things I am afraid of out in the wild like I I love the outdoors is now you know for moving from New York to California. I totally took up nature. you know aunts. Don't scare me. Mosquitoes don't scare me. Please don't scares me to scare me but a roach like the second I see even a baby roach freeze and terror and I think it's because as a child I mean they. They were there everywhere. I turned like everywhere I turn. They were everywhere where they show up inside the refrigerator. They show up on my leg. you know and it's actually funny just to speak to the slum. Lord Quality of the building think I went back in my research for the book just to you know when you get to write a memoir you are revisiting your past and sometimes you have to go to places to see what they stir up in you right that digging deep I went to flushing I went to four. Oh what I actually met at a few of my old neighbors there which was amazing. They didn't recognize me but I recognize them and I went to the mailbox room just outside the elevator which is often often broken and I looked at the mailbox list and my family was still there. Johnny and it's like you gotta be kidding me. You guys is kit. You can't fix the label. That was my childhood home or something indelible. How's that sure but but so how aware were you or were there moments where you where you came into an awareness that your family didn't have the the security of of permanent residency says status I mean did you know at a young age. The the main way I think I was aware of the fact that we didn't have papers and I was I mean it was there was a fear I could see come up. Specifically actually with other immigrants okay and this is a sort of key point that one must appreciate about the fear of being undocumented rented. Yes there is a fear of police for example there is a fear that when NYPD would walk mom might cross the street. She recounted doing that. She recalled to me that she had done Matt but what I specifically remember was an I described this man in in my book there was this guy who was from our own ethnic community and once we landed in America he showed up. He happened to be a childhood friend of my father's tobacco and globalization and postcolonial reorganization. The Organization of the world's happened to fling them. Both in the same corner of Queens the guy showed up and played hero and he acted like he was going to help my parents a bunch approach and then he ended up being total con- artist and taking them for a ride and making them terrified that he was going to call immigration on them because hey his family knew we didn't have have papers and that's that's what happens. I mean a lot of people will relate to this. You know there are threats from without there are threats from within and man. Is it hard but your family family finally received green cards though and how how one go ahead no no go ahead please. I'm yeah we received green cards. We'd overstate our tourist. Chris visas and we received green cards actually through my aunt my Auntie Nemi who is one of one of our our Savior's in this country she and her husband had become US citizens and they sponsored us. Let's kind of what's funny to me. Also is my family. We got our green cards through a process that is is called or snout derided as chain migration and I destroy the first I heard chain migration of some sort of like bad term. I thought to myself This is how misguided America has become that a process that allows families to support each other and reunite and be a stronger and grow together is now a negative thing. I'm like we are really missing the forest for the trees here but I mean I have to ask so that there is a there are many people in fact I would say even even in the South Asian Community here who say you could look at your family story in a completely different light that they made your your parents made choices to come here and overstayed their tourist visa which was a deliberate act to to remain here illegally and that in the face of other options at other immigrants have have taken by by pursuing legal channels to to come to the United States. It's the perhaps you know not everything that your parents did should be lauded. Yeah you know I really appreciate you bringing up that point and in my experience in in the South Asian Community in particular there is some myth of meritocracy that we really just need to shatter with facts at opening our eyes okay and what I mean by that that is very few people get relatively speaking get to come to the United States the legal away and do all the right things. We hear the term stand in line. Why won't they just stand online. The fact is there are fewer and fewer lines to stand on and many people don't have a line the stand on my parents did what imigrants generations and generations before that my parents did what you know Joe Biden. I didn't great-great-grandfather that I was actually reading up on Biden's history a bit because I was watching him in the presidential debate the last one and it bothered me how he talks about immigrants at the border because he talks about America as a place where yes if you were fleeing persecution we should we should help you but I found that to be a really narrow. I wonder standing about who belongs in America and what has fueled America up until now and it turns out his own great great grandfather from Ireland as Biden recounts. It was an adventure. He was a seafaring adventure. He was not fleeing from persecution. He was you know basically looking for experiences experiences landed in the US became a shop a shoemaker an you know at the time of previous migrations for example the Ellis Island when Democrats about a third of the US can trace their heritage the Ellis Island immigrants so earlier nineteen hundreds which is actually not that long ago what was the average wait time time for those Ellis Island immigrants they were trying to come into America and be American while according to the Archives of that museum. The average wait time was three to five hours Okay not years hours and so what's happened in our country is that we've made it harder and harder and harder for the very thing that gives America America. It's identity its life force. Which is the immigrant. We've made it harder for that person to come in and be part of who we are and that's not that's a an enormous gap by the way between the law and our culture. Our culture is up. You know wherever you travel. You and I both travel a lot. You ever look up restaurants. When you're traveling in whatever corner of the country you are in what I noticed what I go on my Google maps and I looked at my restaurants. I've got every nationality popping up at me. Vietnamese here you know a tight here Indian here Salvadorian here and it's all within a mile of each other that tells you who we are as a culture food. Let food be our guide and with the loss air at other other thing but that's also just because we have misguided politicians. Well I do want to hear from you about the beating heart of this book which is essential which was what happened to your father author but but rt we've got some callers who have personal experiences to share with me just at least bring one of them in. MYRA is calling from Miami Florida Camaro. You're on the air. Yes Hi thank you thank you for having you know it's funny. I've been a green card holder for about fifteen years and when you ask you north we feel confident. I went Maybe I don't maybe there's always kind of cloud of anxiety about it whether it's because you don't understand your rights completely if they can just sort of be taken away. I'm not sure but they're certainly a cloud of mystery and I was just I'm trying to get eight something as simple as a name change on my car and it's been seven months. I feel arbitrary feels like you'll have full of forty of the situation is it's certainly made up to make us feel uncomfortable and somehow insecure but the system doesn't make us feel fully solid immigration status and that's kind of sad yeah well Myra. Thank you so much for your call Arthur. Would you like to respond to her. Yeah you know I am. I thank you for calling. I don't know your own back story. certainly having a green card makes you more secure than being undocumented but part of what I'm doing in my memoir here we are is tracking how the value of the green card really plummeted and having that legal status means a lot less than it used to and that is not because of changes under Donald Trump by the way that's because of changes that happened under President Bill Clinton in the nineteen nineties my family was at the forefront of a new trends ends in American history that new trend is D- legalization meaning you know as was my father's case and the case of many people I've met along the way hey you can have your green card. You can have kids who are. US CITIZENS SPOUSE WHO's a US citizen but if you have any kind of run in with the law I mean I'm talking about misdemeanors as well. I'm talking about things that don't even carry any jail time just about any kind of interaction with the criminal justice system and you are flung flung into a proceeding that is by the way it's not a criminal proceeding. It's a civil proceeding. You have no public defender and the laws switched. Clinton passed signed are such that you cannot ask a judge to look at you and consider your life and way whether or not you should be deported. It is an automatic system and so in a lot of ways. What I'm tracking is in here. We are how the US built a mass deportation system. We've heard the term mass incarceration. We know what it means. I think we now need to wrap our heads around how that's extended for immigrants Brinson to mass deportation so are the US. It's now time to hear more about what happened to your father right because it is you're saying with with the arrival of the Green Card. It was supposed to confer a level of of security to to really pursue that American dream which which your family did until a disaster completely struck. How did he end up getting arrested. Yeah Yeah and yeah I WANNA just sort of share one thing with you. It's funny because you know it's not just dad had a green card. He and I both just had greeting cards but we just assumed where American and neither of US had naturalized yet while the other members of our family already had maybe we we're you know not as good at doing paperwork and bureaucracy as they were and and I remember joking one day and I kind of think about this joke a lot. Now I choke low well. We have great cards. It's the same as being a US citizen. Only we can't vote. That's the only difference in since most Americans don't vote. There's not really any difference and you know I. I hope that increasingly that is not the case in Americans do vote but anyway what happened with dad is he ran a shop on twenty eighth street eight and Broadway in Manhattan. His little brother helped him run the shop. It was his American dream. I mean he wanted to be a small business owner. That is hard work and he you ran a small margins business. He sells watches and calculators and keyboards. I this is before the era of the smartphone making very a little profit on each sale with a very very big rent to pay in Manhattan so anyway it was a wholesale store selling bulk purchases and according to to New York state one of the many buyers who came to the store seeking to purchase a electronics were members of the Cali drug cartel so in the indictment dad was accused effectively of being a front for the most notorious cartel cartel at that time in the entire country so wild. It's a wild story in Q. Coil earthly go ahead yeah no it's and and it's funny because dad would always say. I don't get it. I'm doing what everyone's doing. I'm doing what everyone's doing. I don't get it impart. It didn't really matter because once you're in snared in case you don't point fingers and say hey. I'm just just doing the industry standard. This is the norm. It doesn't work that way and less. You're a multibillion dollar company unless you're one of the companies I cover. It doesn't work that way. Okay the reality for most business owners different from the reality for you know the big tech giant's for example but let me ask you did he when he said everyone's wants doing it. Does that mean that he knew he was selling to them where the now what he meant. Excuse me thank you for asking me that what he meant by that is he was selling l. ing bulk purchases of electronics again the watches and the calculators for cash. That's what he was doing. So these were cash transactions. and that's what everybody in the district was doing were his customers also customers at other shops they could be. They might not be but everyone one in that district had the same practice. Which is oh you wanna come in and you WanNa buy you know ten thousand radios because people were still buying radio at the time he went by ten thousand radios and ship them to Columbia or Mexico or Johanna Sperber. Wherever schorr give us your cash will. We'll we'll send you the merchandise and the one thing that dad did not do what she also said was. The industry enormous heat did not ask the people who are purchasing these items for any of their own legal paperwork for any kind of forum because if you ask them that they would say goodbye and just go to the next door so that's what he meant what he was doing doing that everyone was doing it was a cash business. What do you want arrested for it. That's right that's right. He got arrested for it and and this kind of the really my lesson about how the criminal justice system works so different from what you see on TV really is. Dad got arrested now. Remember going to his court case and at the time I was actually as a scholarship kid at the brearley school in Manhattan. Okay I was already dealing with plenty of imposter syndrome with trying to fit in in a very elite world going debris really was the first time I was surrounded by totally like a white white people it was all white people basically very few people of Color culturally incredibly jarring and the people at brearley their DADS. Let's were CEO's and surgeons and professors and I couldn't. I had already felt self conscious that Oh my family's small time we run a shop. It's very manual labor labor sometimes on the weekends packing and unpacking boxes. I'm not going to fancy places. I couldn't tell people at school that for example any to miss a a day of class because I need to go to Queens criminal courthouse for DADS hearing well. We'll take a quick break here and pick up the story when we come back. We're talking with Arthur Shahani. She's as NPR's correspondent in Silicon Valley but she's out with a new memoir called here. We are and we'll hear more of this incredible story when we get back this point Eh. I can't believe that summer is basically over. I know and you know what that means. The twenty twenty presidential races only going to heat up. It's a good thing we spent all summer more sitting down with the Democratic candidates for president. Hello it is great to be with you. Thanks for having me. I'm delighted to be here. Plus appreciate check out the NPR politics podcast Caspi for exclusive interviews with all the candidates on the debate stage subscribe. This is on point magnetic Roberti. Were talking talking this hour with Artie Shahani. She's NPR's correspondent in Silicon Valley but we're talking to her because she's written a beautiful new memoir. It's it's called here here. We are American dreams American nightmares and it is her family's immigration story and how even after getting green cards the security. That's supposed to come with the ability to pursue your American. Dream may be a little bit out of reach and she's telling us the story. What happened to her father. So are the why don't you pick up where you left. I off because your father got arrested. Your uncle got deported in this in the same case right and your father was threatened with deportation as well. I mean I mean what happened to him. In the course of of his case being heard yeah so this is what happened. My father and uncle were brought brought into court. Their lawyer suggests that they plead guilty Mr Shahani Mr Shahani. You'll do eight months. Put it behind you If you go to trial the lawyer said you could serve more than a decade. That's because of the trial penalty exercising. Your constitutional rights of to the trial is not free of charge. If you're convicted you will spend a very long time in prison. They took the plea they couldn't afford this kind of risk and so my uncle went in first and here's what's to me so fascinating about you know acting like my dad and uncle were these big time drug dealers in our the store was just a front for a drug cartel that was what the prosecutor treated us like at the beginning of the case but then when it came to securing that guilty plea because the prosecutor really really wanted that guilty pleas secured the prosecutor agreed to let one man go in first and then let the other man go in so uncle my uncle service time then he would come out our store and then dad would service time now magnet you know one thing that I would just point out is if these were some big time drug dealers in our store with a front for cartel. Why would you structure plea deal so that the store can keep running in the family. Can keep surviving off of their business. I mean it was it was total bogus. my uncle Winston because of a mistake by New York State New York state made an error. He ended up serving two and a half years instead of eight months. He really suffered and the day hey. We thought he was coming home. I mean we were ready for the welcome. Home Party and it turned into a search party because we had no idea Zia deportation was going to be the second surprise punishment. After he had already served time he disappeared for four days. We had no idea where he was and then my uncle called us. He was in a different prison a detention center that happened to be this was like life is so weird in the prison he was in happened to be just across the street from my favorite club in New York City like as a kid I would go underage clubbing at the spot called. Sob Sob sounds of Brazil and my uncle was being detained at two o one varick street right across the street from there and and my world was falling apart part. I mean that's really when the shame that I felt around the arrests it just shattered and what I felt was indignation. Just felt like enough is enough. How much are we going to keep paying for for this. and unfortunately I was a student at that point at the University of Chicago. I flew home and I was trying to make sense of how we could build a defense and and save my uncle and we just had all these commonsense notions about the wall like hey he had a first time non violent offense. Hey He's a family man. Hey Hey we have a small business. Hey a bunch of us were. US citizens and Green Card holders that must all count for something but as a matter of fact under the law it didn't count for any think thank and he was basically summarily deported and then my father's case followed his case and your father served time in rikers right correct and you you had said earlier in the show that in a way a lot of your relationship with him was built around your visits to the Hammer I can. I mean those conversations. Did he ever in his time in prison. Did he ever indicate to you that his view about his adopted country about about America. Did it change I of course it did acres yeah no go. Here's here's why I ask I ask because yes of course you're in prison for having run a store but I just I guess I'm just asking that because the drive that immigrants have come to the United States produces a prof- in in many of them speaking from personal experience in my family a kind of profound love for this country that is almost immune sometimes to seeing the downs the incredible downsize now. It's hard to be immune to it and you're in prison but I'm just wondering like did he must he felt his his love for America. Be Tested. I guess Here's the here's what happened. Okay and my book you know so it here we are and there's a subheading great. American dreams American nightmares and that is the full breadth that my family has experienced in this country. When my father went to rikers island I mean he had a hard time talking about what he was seeing there. he was a quiet man and preferred not to share the kinds of violence. He was seeing there but he was absolutely his first night there a fellow inmate a fellow prisoner came up to him in the middle of the night and said give me your wedding ring around going to slice off your finger and my father started screaming. Get away from me. Get away from me. Get away from me and thankfully fully the guy didn't beat him up and didn't hurt him but that was that was a you know a pretty a pretty standard heard greeting there and it's not just that it was violent for him but he saw so many at A. I think what really changed for him when he got to rikers island if S. seeing wow this sec- of black and Brown faces practically every prisoner here is a person of color you know he asked me what I remember going to him him and he asked me he's like white. People don't commit crimes very white people in New York. They don't commit crimes and he wasn't you know he was trying to wrap his mind signed around the fact that the justice system is selective it is racially focused and biased and that's not something he really knew until he got there and so I would say that the experience at rikers island opened his eyes to to what being a quote unquote criminal actually means and often. It's not an indictment on your actual character. It's a reflection of the society you eleven and who gets targeted well. Let me just turned back to the callers for a moment are the let's go to what KITA WHO's calling from Atlanta Georgia Makita. You're on the air hi. How are you doing all right. Go ahead hi Michelle honey. It's tell you that you just. You're just really talking about something that I'm dealing with in my life right now. Two point that you made about your father being in prison and the other one was someone near and dear to you guys that tried to basically extort you use you for his his own benefit. My husband is currently doing four years in prison because of a so-called friend when my husband. I came to United States. He used my husband of him. My husband is a native of Nigeria and when he came here he he didn't know anyone you know he came here legally got a green card and he had one person that he was familiar with from. Nigeria here and this guy used my husband and he implemented implemented him into his dirty scene of embezzling money and my husband is now serving four years in prison I and I and and he's facing being deported from the United States. Though my question to Miss Connie is you know how can I as a person who does not who knows nothing about law and who does not have money. How can I help my husband since day in the united they thank you for asking about that sort of two things that come to mind you know. I don't WANNA BE BLEAK. I am in general hopeful person. the reality of the the deportation system is that in most cases it is automatic and mandatory so there's not an opportunity to go before a judge and say hey this guy served as time he sorry he doesn't need the second punishment and please consider the impact on for example his children. If there are children or his wife as you are there are some other handful all of nonprofits in this country that have really focused on this work. I can recall one right now. the immigrant defense project which is based in New York City has been doing this valiant effort both in New York and around the country of helping people who are prosecutors and public defenders in the criminal justice system to understand how how one one case can be a pipeline into another because it's still poorly known it but the reality is we need legal change I recall before Fourth Timber Eleventh when I was a kid. I'd actually stopped going to college for a while because I needed to fight in my dad's case I needed to fight to keep my family together in this country and when I stopped going to school so that I could be close to dad and I could go to rikers. I also got involved in a political campaign. This was right before nine eleven and I remember in that campaign. There were Republicans like if you might recall Lamar Smith Republican from Texas he was one of the members of Congress saying. Oh whoops stories deportation laws that we passed ninety six that Clinton signed they went too far. We need to kind of anew some of this stuff and unfortunately after nine eleven that was pretty pretty much vanished in a moment of severe political opportunism and you know I'm waiting and looking for the political leaders who conscious that who can break open the truth. Well you know how you mentioned that you essentially put your college career on hold to help. Hold your family together and to come up with a new legal strategy for your father. You were successful in doing that and finding in finding a lawyer who could as I as I read it. Didn't I mean just kind of made a slightly different argument. that helped your father regains freedom right. Yes you know it's funny. The way that my father secured his temporary freedom meaning the way that we got him out of immigrations attention so that we could keep on fighting. I mean this case lasted for a decade but that very important victory at the beginning it happened because I found this genius attorney in Newark New Jersey who happened to constantly be reading new court cases news and found this one precedent that was set you know literally a few days or weeks before my father was scheduled to go from one facility to another and he ran into federal court that precedents and made this incredibly sophisticated argument. Hey Court the immigration authorities say Mr Shahani must be deported did but he's not even deportable and it was like very intricate argument I spell it out and here we are in the memoir because at fascinated me it was such an insight to me. It's a how law works. Law is not justice. It is the practice of finding and exploiting loopholes. Okay that is what my family's experience talking and that lawyer incredibly Savvy Avi managed to wrench that out that out of a system and because my father was not locked up we then had further fuel to keep on fighting you know at the Immigration and prosecutors. They know this if you can keep somebody's attained on the taxpayer dollar. It's a lot easier to get them. Ultimately deported so it's you know it's an easier fight to win. Are The your your father has since passed away do you. I mean this this experiences. Obviously it's so central to your life his life your whole family's life does do your does anyone in in your family. Do you ever have conversations about whether this is such a crazy question but I got to ask it anyway. Does your mom mother ever wonder if coming to America was the right decision. You know it's it's funny because my mom she sees what happens to were husband and I think she carries with her a lot of guilt because she really wanted us to stay here. She really felt that this was a better country for girls for women for her for us and so dad you know he didn't want to stay here but he fought and he was the target and he fought for us and she has guilt for him but then. I know my mom she looks at me and I am. I am living her dream and I know that my mother look at me and you know it's funny. A lot of Indian moms would be very concerned to have a daughter like me. You know I I live a fairly unconventional life. I run around the country. I interview strangers. I they go into strangers homes and offices and mom just finds my life to be incredibly exciting and meaningful and she knows and I know and we all know that is only possible here. It would not have happened quote unquote back home. Your father must have seen that too yeah. You know I think he did. It's funny. There's a picture I have of him. That's included in here. We are my my publisher. It was like hey let's include a a family photo album in the book and it was funny because it's like wow. I I am really sharing family story with my country and we included in the photo album a picture of dad at my graduation from Harvard. I went to graduate school at Harvard and he is just sitting there. I mean he just looks gangster angst or like he's got sunglasses. He's got his ring. He's got his jacket on a huge by then and wheelchair he had been through a lot physically but the smile on him mm-hmm and the Sun Shining on him and you know that whole day he's the one who held might diploma. You know it was his We've got just just a couple of seconds left to go. I want to say thank you so much for sharing your story and there's a lot of it that really hit me too and the beauty with which you right right in the in the book is is incredible. A- We had a lot of colors that I couldn't get to feel that fragility that you're talking talking about and so with I'm just gonna I'm just going to wrap up because I could talk with you for another hour about but we're just flat out of time so I'll find you okay not do and in terms of Indian parents looking on their children living unconventional live join. The club uncle be proud of her are these Shahani is NPR's correspondent in Silicon Valley her new memoir here. We are American dreams American nightmares. We have an excerpt of it at don't Point Radio Dot Org are thank you very much thank you. I'm Meghna Chakrabarti. This is on point.