5 Burst results for "Pakistan Gaston"
"pakistan gaston" Discussed on FP's The Editor's Roundtable (The E.R.)
"Thousand one after the attacks of September eleventh understand the genesis if that war I spoke with Hussein Connie who served as Pakistan's ambassador to the United States from two thousand eight to twenty eleven our interviews first aired in February of this here. Okay so we're going to try and get the whole picture of Coniston. What do you think I can I can do it? In thirty seconds. Americans know nothing about Afghanistan. They've been trying to understand it and they haven't succeeded so it's time time for them to come home good less than thirty seconds really good all right so first of all. Thank you for coming in pleasure being Kim. I'm actually curious before we even start. Where did you grow up? Could argue bucket son Tommy and tiny bit about your childhood. Well I mean. I wasn't born to a very rich or prosperous family My family were immigrants from India Pakistan partition of the subcontinent. They were housed in these British military barracks which had been transformed into temporary housing for families a fresh veggies. Today's speaker partition growing up. Oh yeah everybody's book about partition partition. Was it a trauma carried or yeah I mean my father was somebody who never wanted partition and didn't want to move to Buxton. My mother was somebody who believed in Bahrain and Shen and wanted to move to Pakistan so therefore we had a lot of kitchen table Debate about whether the party should have been something. I think that has stayed with me. A- An intellectual level. Even to this day how right now people in Buxton don't want to think of what might have been if there had been no oh partition and people in India always sort of think about the people who created Pakistan. Are the ones responsible for partition from my own childhood childhood debates. I understand that there was a far more complex situation at that time and that they could have been ways in which it could have been avoided. I'm curious how that affects affects how you perceive the relationship between Pakistan Afghanistan on the Taliban and one of the things that's remarkable but the Taliban is that over the last eighteen years the the Taliban is hung on and if anything they've gone stronger. Where does the relationship begins between Pakistan and tally first of all one has to understand what the issue is is on the part of Pakistan that makes interested in Afghanistan Pakistan as people don't always understand is a new country There was no Pakistan in history. The the name Pakistan is an acronym that was contrived by students Muslim students from the subcontinent Cambridge University in the late thirties. So the very idea Pakistan is no more than eight years old and the country is no more than seventy seventy one years old that said because Pakistan choose to be a western ally in the Cold War it got got a lot of benefit from American and European support of Aniston on the other hand because it was a neighbor of the Soviet Union from inception. Older country just didn't get involved in the Cold War and then of course. American awareness of Ghanistan goes only as far back as the Soviet invasion of nineteen. Seventy nine for of guns and what is today. Pakistan comprises a large tract of territory that was historic Ernestine and that was sticking by the British and eighteen ninety-three resentment and more important than resentment is a feeling that The Durand Line the border between Pakistan Afghanistan today divided ethnicity that Bush dunes do I did tribes. Do I cleanse so pucks constantly have always had a relatively open the border The hundreds of points of crossing etcetera. That was taken advantage off by the United States and everybody else who supported them which I then against the Soviets at the Mujahideen were of guns who were essentially people who resented communistic of Ghanistan came to Buxton got recruited trained etc Pakistan. Had A different goal than America did and other countries did in the war against the Soviets everybody else was interested in Soviet. I leaving Afghanistan Bucks was interested in ensuring that whatever succeeded the Soviet occupation was so behold into Pakistan that they would never question the Durand Line and the 1893 loss of territory until Pakistan ended up supporting some of the most hardline fundamentalist groups because they were closer to Pakistan's military and intelligence services then the more secular or pro-soviet all for that matter Less religiously stringent groups. When the Soviets left civil war broke out of Ghanistan Pakistan supported? The hardliners has situation went out of control the US redrew from the region took no interest in the civil war Pakistan decided to support this group called the the Taliban which was basically those hidden who were not willing to listen to their leaders and so punks John was present at the creation of the Taliban. The Taliban have almost always had a very strong relationship with Pakistan security services who has ever supported the Taliban accept them and for on Pakistan's point of view who else has supported Pakistan's would we want Afganistan that have gone should actually consider Pakistan in religious terms as Islamic country rather than as the country that deprives traditional of of their historic homeland part of their historic dot com. Land that is where the differences comes to the Taliban have consistently been supported from Pakistan. The the reason why. The Taliban are strong is because President Bush's comment made a big mistake. The Bush administration defined their job in Afghanistan. Very Natalie. The thought that their job was just getting rid of either before you get to President Bush and we're talking about George W W motion take us. I in nine eleven. How did Pakistan view the attacks on nine eleven but first of all we must understand that? There's a difference between how Pakistan Gaston security services view something and how the people of Pakistan something The people of Pakistan have one hundred views but the specs in security services have only one objective suggest to try and be equal in part to India. That's the historic goal. So the way this nine eleven was that it disrupted their little plan. They had installed the Taliban in par of Ghanistan the Mujahideen groups at all fallen by the wayside. The Taliban were so beholden to Pakistan. That now there was no question that any tune in Afghanistan will ever question the border or even Pakistan's right to dictate to Afghanistan. That was disrupted by nine eleven because now the Americans got involved until another superpower as well not only that not only that it's Pakistan's ambitions have been taught it the the Pakistani ambition of having a Afghanistan that is beholden completely to Pakistan because I've gone assigned his landlocked Pakistan. Is the the only access to the sea. Box is bigger much stronger. Military much more connected with the rest of the world suboxone could dictate to Afghanistan. And now if America's GonNa to come and install a new regime in Afghanistan that regime will not be beholden to Pakistan has has been the case so therefore all the Taliban leaders evacuated and we found out many years later in two thousand eleven And been other than was founded buck Sunday draws on just the Taliban leaders even some al Qaeda leaders ended up in Pakistan. Where were you on on nine eleven? I was in Pakistan. I was ironically. I was about to leave his llamas for Karachi on a flight in which on both sides I had to former Pakistan intelligence chief sitting in coach class on a light throws Lama but to Karachi the flight got cancelled in the nine eleven news game and so I had to stay the night in Islamabad before going on to Karachi. What was the reaction like in the airport that day mode important than the reaction of the general public? I'll tell you what the to through intelligence chiefs and they thought that the Americans had been taught a lesson and so it was interesting Because I was of course one one of those who taught that no this is going to become a lesson for global terrorism America will retaliate and will react bucks. Any public. Opinion has often been very anti-american American. So half of Foxton population was probably anti-american but there are also a lot of people like myself who resented the Jihadi extremists and terrorists. In fact within a couple of days of nine eleven I wrote an op Ed that appeared in the New York Times and which I made this argument that Pakistan me now have to choose friendship with the United States or continued support of the jihadis unfortunately eighteen years. I have the feeling that they really never ever had. Because the Americans allowed them the opportunity to carry on support for the jihadis wiping America's allies. Let's go into that a little further because Pakistan nominally was US ally as a US enters into this conflict but at the same time they have their own interests in Afghanistan. John can you explain that difference so for one thing. Pakistan had a military dictatorship at the time General Pervez Musharraf was in charge and the American sort of the old habit of trying to find you. You know what FDR used to say about Somoza dictatorship in Nicaragua that he's my he's sob but he's my sob. So all of a sudden Americans thought. Okay Sheriff who was by the way at that time. Pariah and the Americans had thought that he he had toppled the civilian elected democratic government. Be He had been responsible for the war with India just a few months before his takeover and see hypoxia. John was not conforming to American expectations in relation to its nuclear program so Pakistan within the sanctions before nine eleven and after nine eleven eleven which turns around and says okay. What you need what you need help you and the Americans if we found out SOB so we should have helped the US in finding several alka figures? A lot of people who ended up in Guantanamo were found by Pakistan's intelligence service but he never dealt a final blow to the Jihadi groups that Pakistan itself had created for influence in Afghanistan that just Afghan Taliban Taliban and then these various jihadi groups that were waging war in a indian-controlled parts of Kashmir and even in India so soon after nine eleven when there was an attack on India's parliament which caused a lot of friction between India and Pakistan and the US decided to tilt in favor of Pakistan to try and tell India not to react act and the Americans would somehow bring stability. The Pakistani game continued well until two thousand and six before the US reacted between Immediately after nine eleven and two thousand six the American policy seemed to be to say the Taliban are not enemy enemy. Al Qaeda and Pakistan is helping us with al Qaeda but by two thousand six al Qaeda number twos threes They won't any left oft for Buxton tourist and handle to the Americans and lots of intelligent started coming of how the Taliban had regrouped in Pakistan and had had now started attacking American troops in honest son so Pakistan was now seen as both being American ally helping America in certain ways but also helping America's enemies the Taliban attack Americans in Afghanistan. How is that support provided to the Taliban don well the Taliban were equipped trained and host in Pakistan? And I think there's plenty of evidence of that I mean right now. The president off the United States is kind of set his goals as drawing from Afghanistan. So he doesn't want to be attention to any of that but if you remember he himself pointed out out that All evidence was that the Taliban would not have been the first became if they did not have a safe haven across the border in Pakistan..
"pakistan gaston" Discussed on Here & Now
"From NPR in WBZ. I'm Tanya Moseley. I'm Jeremy Hobson. It's here and now for the third time in history. The House is expected to vote on Wednesday to impeach a a sitting president to articles of impeachment. Pass the House Judiciary Committee along party lines on Friday with all democrats voting in favor and all Republicans voting against it doesn't doesn't look like the Democrats will have that kind of unity in the full House. Joining us now is Danny Weis. His former chief of staff to Nancy Pelosi the house speaker and a senior fellow at the Century Foundation. That's a progressive. Think tank in Washington. Danny how many Democrats do you expect will vote against the articles of impeachment. We don't know the actual number now. That Congressman van drew is indicated. He's going to become a Republican. There are still probably a small number of Democrats could be anywhere from one or two five or six but Those numbers will not be known until a little bit later from now. was that a surprise to you. About Jeff Van drew of New Jersey. Who is leaving the Democratic Democrat Party? he is one of just two Democrats who voted against an impeachment inquiry back in November. It was a surprise. I Know Congressman van drew had the opportunity ready to sit with him for about forty five minutes right after he was elected when he came into visit Speaker Pelosi in November of twenty eighteen. And we had a great talk and learned a lot about his district in his thoughts thoughts and I was surprised. His district is not as conservative as some other democratic members Who have not indicated that they're going to oppose the impeachment articles and who did vote for the impeachment inquiry so it was a little bit of a surprise in that regard? Well if the Democrats lose as you say maybe five or six other people. Do you think that that hurts the case for impeachment. It doesn't hurt the case for impeachment if you get A substantial number of Democrats voting for it it It will still send a very clear message that the president violated the Constitution by asking Ukraine to influence the two thousand twenty presidential election in his favor. I think the reason for the Democrats going forward regardless of the fact that you might lose a few Democrats is that for the speaker and I think think also for the majority of the Democrats in the House. They believe this rises above politics. This is about the constitution. Having made the decision to go forward with impeachment because they believed it was necessary now. The challenge for the speaker and for the Democrats is to manage the politics going forward but the decision to impeach wasn't based on politics. Why do you think we're not hearing the same about a number of Republicans who might Cross party lines and vote in favor of impeachment there are a number of house. Republicans who won just barely. It's really one of the most fascinating things about The politics of President Donald Trump. I mean he has a total lock on the Republican Party. I don't think even the speaker anticipated. Just how much of a lock he would have when she first announced That she believed impeachment should be carried out when the evidence is overwhelming coming and compelling and bipartisan I think she believed that in fact there would be Republicans on board as well but the president. He's a very unusual president and he has total control control of his party. I want to finally ask you about the Senate trial. Senate Minority Leader Chuck. Schumer has asked for four witnesses with direct knowledge of the events. Senate Majority Leader Republican Mitch. McConnell has said he'll follow the president's lead as he sets up the process for a trial. Do you think that the Democrats are making a mistake by putting the whole impeachment thing in Mitch. McConnell's hands so quickly. There are some on the left who believe the democrats should just hold onto it not have the vote yet and drag out the process. Keep the investigation going my sense. It's better to get it done quickly for a couple of reasons one is we clearly saw this with the Muller report the attention span for the American public is limited. They've been asked to to pay a lot of attention to the president's transgressions his corrupt activities Charges against him the investigation. Not sure how much longer you can ask the public to pay attention to this in a way that's helpful and then of course The two thousand election is already underway. And we'll be even even more so Next year it would be better to have the impeachment trial behind the people running for office and for people trying to make sense of the election because the election as as you know it will not just be about impeachment it will be about healthcare it will be about climate it will be about gun safety and Immigration and national security from my standpoint. You'd want the public to be able to have an opportunity to really sift through those other issues as well. One ask you actually one more thing. which is that as you know? The president tweeted out something about Nancy Pelosi and her teeth falling out. Do you think that. How do you think she reacts when she sees something like that well takes a deep breath? She probably laughs. Absolute Bit She gets these comments Directed at her all the time from the president and from the entire Republican political apparatus. Bradtha says you know in the twenty eighteen campaign I think I don't know the exact number one hundred and fifty million dollars worth of ads. Were spent Vilifying in her and demonizing her. So she's very adept at Hearing those things said about her and continuing her work she is an expert at compartmentalizing activities. He's so she's very good at keeping those things separate you recall. I think you probably talked about it. The comments you made the other day when she was asked if she hated the president and she said that she doesn't hate anyone that was really true. She doesn't have time for hatred. She has time to get the work done and then go about other things in other other. Departments that is Danny Weis. Who is the former chief of staff to Nancy? Pelosi now a senior fellow at the Century Foundation. Thank you for joining us. Thank you to India now now where there have been days of protests some of them deadly over a controversial new law that gives citizenship to non Muslims who enter India illegally to flee religious persecution and several neighboring countries some of them Muslim majorities. India's Prime Minister Modi today appealed for calm unbear- San Toroshin with the BBC joins us now from Delhi unbear- San We've talked about this law on the show before but remind us again. What exactly does it do? The Indian Goldman in past this new law called citizenship amendment. Bill Act last week that has cleared widespread protests across India it has got a few elements which many people disagree with for example it says non Muslim people from neighboring countries like Afghanistan Pakistan and Bangladesh and if they flee those countries he's due to religious persecution and their application for citizenship will be fast tracked. They'll get easy access to get citizenship. The Muslims have been excluded that is triggered anger among a wide variety of people in India. Say India is a democracy and you cannot discriminate. People on the basis of religion on the other hand India's northeast where Bangladeshis a neighboring country for the states and Osama and other places where they accused there have been lot of infiltration or people coming over from Bangladesh. Over the years they've settled and because of this new law they're going to get citizenship that will affect the demography the region of pilots within people having feared about for example in the US a migration from Latin America affecting things in the US the same way people in awesome. Feel that you know. Foreigners outsiders coming in taking over the land and jobs yes. This is also controversial in part because Prime Minister Modi represents the Hindu Hindu nationalist party. Can you talk about that context. Many people in India believe that The new citizenship law is favoring mostly Hindus who came from Bangladesh during the country's civil war in one thousand nine hundred ninety one for example they point out that the Hindu population in the sixty seventies was much higher and because of religious persecution institution. Many people came over to India in Assam state and they're able to get Naturalization Process Naturalization Papers so this is going to benefit tolu mostly the Hindu community because they're very tiny number of other communities like the Buddhists and Christians and Jane's they live in these three countries but what people people are asking is if you are really concerned about religious persecution in these countries then you should also think about Muslim. Religious minorities like accommodates in Pakistan. Gaston they claim that about religious persecution in those countries so that is why many people think this is a Hindu nationalist government. Apart of its agenda you know. It is promoting that Hindu and that is why it is implementing this is triggered anger among Hindu Muslims in India. And they think that the government is pushing for what take gender and if it continues they will be treated like second class citizens in their own country. And that's why you see a large number of Muslims taking part in protests in the past few you days however the government firmly denies those accusations on it does not legitimise that's what the government says these protests we've seen the pictures in read the stories. They've been pretty violent. Can you describe some of the demonstrations that have been going on across the country. The protest daunted last week in the north east of India because the people are so angry because people were telling various government leaders that they will not accept this citizenship. Act Bill but the government went ahead and passed a law despite eighteen conversations with various stakeholders that triggered violence in the northeastern part of India. At least a six people were killed in clashes with security forces and Internet Internet have been shut down for the past. Few days in this region on a number of people were injured and the army was deployed in the state up in a few areas and in the neighboring state of West Bengal tall also. Many roads were blocked and the protesters were out in the streets and at least a sixty six however in the capital Delhi The the protest was largely peaceful on Sunday. But the police say that Some fire engines and buses were set alight by the by a small group group of protesters. So the worry for the government is it spreads further to other Indian universities he becomes a student protests. Then they will find it difficult to contain being this you mentioned that Folks are are just upset because the law was passed without any consultation with the public What do protesters want the government meant to do right now? They want the law to be overturned but the government is firm. It keeps on saying that no this was long pending. It's long overdue. Even these non Muslim religious minorities cannot be accommodated in India barrels. They can go so this has to be implemented the BBC's unbear- Sin Toroshin Russian..
"pakistan gaston" Discussed on Slate's The Gist
"Sometimes on this show we get into Picayune details we get into Trivia. We get into a flu via today. I want to go back way back and talk about pretty much. The biggest issues in the world today joining me now is James Robinson he along with his co author. Third Darren Asamoah Glue have written the narrow corridor states societies and the fate of liberty if you recognize the names of those two authors yes about seven seven years ago they wrote the seminal book. Why nations fail which a lot of people have been thinking of lately? This is their newest effort to sort of redefine fine art experiment in civilization. Hello Professor Robinson. Thanks for coming on my pleasure. Let's Talk Leviathans and Hobb's shall we not. I mean this is an obvious place to start when you're talking about how to define liberty and society was your mental process to start with hobbs or to think about these issues and then you said you know it really really does come back to hops. Yeah I think we start with hopes but as soon as you start thinking about hold you see you know how problematic many of the things he said were and many of his arguments arguments. So it's about jobs but it's also about broadening and complicating the dissolved about you. Know what is it that crates crates liberty in a society right to be fair to Hobbs. You know he was writing in the sixteen fifty s and he was ahead of his time then and also he was living in an an age. I suppose that called out for order from chaos and our age is a little different from that. Yes that's right. I mean he was right in the middle of the English civil war and and he was he was saying you know that the solution to this was very strong central authority estate. which would stop this state of wars? He called it and provide you know basic older public goods and our starting point. Is that well. Actually you know that might have looked like a good idea during the sixteen fifties. But if you look at history you see that Leviathans of that sort. It's just as common that they actually create war as stop it so you you have to think about the governance of the Leviathan and in whose interests the Leviathan works and whose preferences it represents so the governance of the state is is critical. And that's that's a crucial part of the book. And when Hobbs was talking about war he spells it w. a. r. e. and it doesn't just mean war. WER and meant a sort of all manner of oppression and all manner of privation and all manner of anarchy absolutely and and the threat of it. It didn't actually have to happen. It was just the potential for or it could have enormous consequences for people's lives so yes it's a very rich. Argument is not just about international warfare as we might think about it right I read. Why nations fail? And I've been thinking about it. I think a lot of people have since populism began to sweep through Europe and then in the United States this is well you tell me but I look at this book as an acknowledgement. That success is not the same as not failure. I think you know the connection between this book and why nations fail Israeli. You know we're trying to get much deeper into the long run political dynamics that creating -clusive political institutions and we're trying to unwrap in some sense the challenges that ah politically inclusive societies face. You know in the idea of the narrow corridors within this corridor there's a balance between state and society not which is critical for having inclusive political institutions. But there's dangers on either side of the corridor you know there's dangerous when the state becomes comes to strong and starts to dominate society. But there's also dangerous when society becomes too strong disillusioned with inclusive political the institutions. And that's something that is not at all in. Why nations fail you know that? I think we emphasize very much. These kind of elite overthrow inclusive political institutions such as the case of Venice historically. But we underplayed you know you try to make these arguments simple and you know anyone can make a complicated arguments about the world you know so. Our job of social sciences at a social scientists is to try to find a simple way of talking about these things and I think at the time. We didn't didn't really have a way of talking about that. So we just sorta finessed it but obviously in the world today you see it's not elite Yuno discontent that's created trumpism or Taddei or you know many of these other movements it's actually popular discontent with the way things are and we couldn't talk about that in why nations fail but but we can with this book. So you're right you know. That's a perceptive comment that this framework allows us to illustrate much better these challenges challenges to inclusive political institutions. I WANNA I WANNA follow up on exactly what you just said but I also want to bring up the example example of Singapore. Because I think in the last book that was considered it was often held out as a very useful counterexample. For some of its neighbors and other states it is a non failed state is it is a highly functional state if you judge it based on failure but if you the judge based on the narrow corridor I don't know how much liberty Singaporean would have or Singapore society would have and I wonder if Singapore is an example of of the despotic Leviathan then the shackled Leviathan which is your framework for roughly functioning. State Yeah I mean. I think I'd say China is probably a better example than than Singapore. No theory explains everything and I think. It's very difficult to debase. A theory of comparative development around the case of Singapore. Because you know it's a small state it's island you know. It wasn't a poor country in nineteen in sixty. I had many modern institutions. And it's you know it's had the remarkable. It's remarkable history of leadership you know with the kind of vision. That's that's lacking in most poor countries and that's very hard as a social scientists to sort of explain where that came from. So I you know it's it's not liberal in the Western sense but it's not like China either so so if it's despotic. It's a fairly soft sort of despotism Singapore oh I would say I mean I think the Chinese cases much clearer obviously or North Korea. Or you know so. So that's that's a better example for us and you know here you'll raising this other issue. I think which is very different from why nations fail. which is you know? We're trying to talk not just about economic development. Of course that's important but also things that we think are fundamentally significant fo- for the quality of human life and what is it that makes society desirable. And you know this. Is this notionally of liberty. I think that's something. We value a lot. But where does that come from you know. How do you explain the enormous variation in that in the world? Now I want I want my listeners to think of because there are a lot of graphs in the book so I want to. I want them to think of two axes. And when you talk about the narrow corridor it's pretty much right in the middle of the two axes so it would be the line at a forty five degree angle from the zero point. Two axes are a strong state and a strong society strong state. I think we all understand that if it gets too strong it gets despotic. And it oppresses its people. But a strong society isn't the same as a week state and it's not exactly the same as anarchy so tell me what you mean by the Strong Society Eddie. Because I think it's a really interesting concept. Yeah I mean we mean how. Society is organized its ability to act collectively mobilize and that you know that. That tonal g bundles. You know many things into into it you know. Let let me give you an example. You know I mean and I think this is why the concept of liberty is so interesting hosting you know so so have you talked about China you know that would be an example of what we call a despotic Leviathan. Where the where the state is strong and society is very weak? And then you could say okay. Well there's not much liberty in China right you know but then there's many other parts of the world that definitely don't look anything like China look. Think about Yemen Yemen Yemen. There's not much liberty in Yemen either. But but the state dominant doesn't dominate society. In fact there's hardly any state at all in Yemen in society. All Power and authority. He is actually in society and society's very organized through troy and kinship groups and you know which which operate completely autonomously leap from the from the state and have resisted the state if you know the big story about the who the rebellion in some sense In Yemen is it's a it's a rebellion against society against the state to control the state to get the state back in its place. So so there's a society is organized and the State isn't no and that doesn't create liberty either but it's very different from China and I guess the Mo the more we thought about those sorts of examples and Lebanon. The you know the Philippines Pakistan Gaston Afghanistan. You know it's not that the state dominates society in Afghanistan. The state has never ruled the mountains. Enough Ghanistan never just the river valleys and the plains so we wanted to have a framework to think about that. You know one frame which we could help us pull all of that together. Are there examples in the industrialized allies world. Or maybe not. Because that's one of the things that makes it industrialized of a really really strong society. So you talk about Afghanistan Yemen. I understand this tribal. It goes back thousands of years ears but are there more modern examples. Maybe society has gotten ahead of the state. Absolutely I mean. I think that's a great question you know and that that in some sense you'll raising here. One of the what we think is the most original interesting parts of the book because Yes. It's true that you know society in Yemen. You know his powerful compared to Chinese society but I would say society in the United States or Western. Europe is even more powerful than Yemen because it's outgrown or it's dissolved these tribal structures Russell kinship structures. And it's able to act on a much broader and much larger basis. So that's that's an even more powerful society from all a perspective because it can broaden the agenda it cannot it can get out of the parochial -ness of tribes which can be very effective. But this could be even more effective so from our perspective respective you know the society in the United States is even more powerful than an and that's part of this process of what we call the Red Queen Effect. It's part of this competition Asian between the states and society and in that competition both state and society change and You know so that's my. That's that's the right and the Red Queen effect is that reference to allison one or Lewis Carroll where you have to be a pretty much run to keep up. So you're saying that a very well oh functioning western European or maybe I hope still. American experiment is Strong Society and the and the State is commensurately strong strong with the society. And that's that's where you get liberty exactly. Is there any examples on the other end of that access like the state and society are both equally week and that's working out in terms of liberty. Not Not too much. I mean we have a we have a concept which comes right at the end of towards the end of the book which we call the paper Leviathan. which is there are parts of the world tonight? You know I think of Latin America like this where you take a country like Colombia you. You know that you have a weak state and a and a week society so you'll Solta more balanced but You get stuck there and the red queen effect never comes into operation so so. But that's that's not liberty in that in that context you know Columbia was you know for many years. The kidnapping AH homicide and drug capital of the world can. It's still have had they've maybe we hope are just getting out of essentially a fifty year civil war..
"pakistan gaston" Discussed on On Point with Tom Ashbrook | Podcasts
"Org RV welcome to the program. Thank you so much for having me great to have you. I first of all want to ask you if when you decided to write this book about your family and particularly about your father. Did you have any hesitation tation in writing it as givens word of the great controversies. The nation has experienced. I'm experiencing about immigration right now. The hesitation came in the years before I finally decided I was going to write it. there was a lot of hesitation like I had spent my life life pretty much from age sixteen to thirty with my father's legal problems constantly hanging over our heads you already gave great summary of my family's trajectory into America once we got here and we thought that we were established here. Dad opened up a store He actually opened up a small business on the exact same street where he used to shovel snow for four dollars an hour. So you know I achieving my dream being the precocious kid in school and he was his own business owner small business owner one day dad got arrested. He was at rikers island and apparently he he had sold watches and calculators to the Cali drug cartel shocking. I was as a kid interested in becoming the prosecutor side was actually ashamed of Dad. I didn't know how to wrap my head around my ideals of justice and what my father had been accused of and then what slowly happened over the years this was by no means immediate what slowly happened was that while data agreed to take a guilty plea because his lawyer urged him to the eight months and tints it was supposed to be eight months and he was supposed to put the matter behind him. It ended up spiraling into legal legal problems that lasted until I was thirty and I basically grew up in the shadow of a legal legal case that would not go away and that seemed determined to destroy my family and I wanted to keep my family together well if I may I mean just we can slow down a little bit here because we have an hour and I do want short. I mean the the beauty of your book is the detail with which you tell this story because it's true. It's a true I it's a glimpse into the story of of American family that is lived by millions of people here so let's let's go back. Let's go back to the start. Okay what I brought your family to the United States the I'll let you sound like my dad telling me to slow down. Thank you what brought us here. you know. I did not no the real story of why we came here until I stopped to write this memoir and I asked mom hey you and dad would always say we came here for a better life for you. Kids what does that even mean and it was kind of made no sense to me because while my family is originally from India I was born in Morocco and we had a relatively stable life there so I thought why would my parents leave relative stability and come to America and choose to live undocumented with three children. I thought that was crazy. I mean you know that that is a lot of risk not him with me. Came originally on a tourist visa right correct. We came on tourist visas which we overstate how was a infant or a toddler the time and mom. Tom told me and I had never known this before that she apparently back home was dealing with a really really difficult extended ended family situation. She didn't call it abuse and that's not a word that was really in circulation at the time that she was going through it but they lived in what what many of us will know is a joint it family with many extended relatives and mom and dad loved each other a lot and my father was a gentleman but not everyone in the clan was and something pretty horrible happened. and my mom tried to take her own life. She swallowed pills. She didn't want to wake up again. I didn't know this before. I didn't know that my mom attempted suicide at tell you when she told me it shocks me because my mom is one of the most resilient human beings. I know so to learn that she had reached that level of desperation was it just was incredibly painful. We'll she came back to eventually my father agreed that we would they would take the family and come to America because coming to America was easier than moving across the street in some ways. I just wanted to say that there's so many parts parts of your story that I kind of intrinsically feel like I understand because my parents are obviously immigrants from India as well and there's something about what it takes sort of the fortitude and the resilience that it takes to be an immigrant rights to to leave everything you know that's familiar even when it's very very hard that familiarity full of heart and dark things to come to another country because I just feel like it makes sense to me that you didn't know these things before because I there's a lot that I didn't know about my parents because for forty years forty five years they were so focused on making their lives here as Americans yeah I also think that's the tricky thing about how trauma works right because Verret so much to be learned in the pain that we go through and the trials that we face but they're hard to talk about and so they often get lost so I think in part it's our parents or our own lives. We're so busy trying to make it but in part it's just painful to revisit well and when you in growing up in Queens your mother was I mean like you said she was very resilient and an incredibly active also Yeah Yeah Yeah my parents actually together a spoke six languages or six and a half languages you could say though they lacked formal education. My mom just finished grade school but she is a sponge for languages when we landed in Queens which was one of the most diverse zip codes on earth when I was growing up one one three five five. I'm incredibly proud of I remember growing up and there was Beverly Hills Nine O. to anno- and that became like a button and I was like one one three five five. That's the real deal but you know basically we were working in class. United Nations every nationality represented mom could speak to a lot of them and she basically became an organizer without even calling it that or knowing that it was that what she helps for example Central American Day labourers and the leaders of a of a Hindu temple. We'll get along with each other because the Hindu temple didn't like the day labor is standing on the corner waiting for work and she could speak each of their language and help them to get each other and she she did amazing work that is AFFEC- note in in most people's lives that a prominent factor in mind will tell us more about your dad than because he you left India I when he was just barely in his teens right yeah. My father was unfortunately faded to start life over and over and over again. It's funny but you know we some of us. Believe in reincarnation. I feel like that had to keep re living life over and over in this just one this one time he was given he was uprooted from his home as a child in nineteen forty seven and there was a horrifically violence partition of India and Pakistan when the British decided to leave the subcontinent that they'd colonized colonized. They left very haphazardly quickly. horrific violence sued and millions of people had to leave their homes. My father as well as my mother were among them. Dad was old enough to remember it. As a child after his family fled from their native Karachi down into India crotch now being in Pakistan Gaston Dad by the time he was a teenager had to leave the subcontinent altogether to become a migrant worker in Beirut so he works in Beirut Lebanon. He sat money back home to his family. he actually I. I learned this When Dad was in jail. Let rikers at which is where I really got to start knowing who my father was he was not able to attend his own father's funeral because he had to keep working and being you know continente way to support his family and from Beirut. He traveled around Northern Africa and the Middle East Mom and dad met in Casablanca where I my siblings were bored and then we came over here and it's just what I say he. It's like every time when you're a migrant you have to pick up and go and pick up and go and pick up and go. You're not seen for who you are in the new place that you come to your seen as the alien as a foreigner as an undeserving as someone to be suspected in many cultures not every and so- dad was unfortunately personally forced to keep starting over and I just know it in my steps you know I appreciate how graciously you describe the steps. I've taken in my own life and I imagine what would it look like for me. If every time I wanted to make a pivot people had no idea what my backstory was and it was irrelevant what we're talking this hour with Arthur Johnny. She has a new book out. A new memoir called here. We are American dreams American nightmares. It's the story her immigration story story her family's immigration story in America of course you know arthis work because she is NPR's correspondent from Silicon Valley as well but when we come back we'll hear a lot got more about what happened to her father and how that.
"pakistan gaston" Discussed on The President's Inbox
"Establish. It could be courts. Find ways not to hear cases is to get into the intricacies of indian law right. What is the reaction been domestically in india apart from kashmir. This seems to be overwhelmingly homing popular so you see he's a political winner for movies. There's a political winner for mody. Remember the movie government was re elected. They were national elections this year. They are reelected reelected with an even larger single-party mandate than they achieved in two thousand fourteen and you really did see across india a great degree of celebration and that this had finally been done in that there wouldn't be kind of two different systems. There would now be one flag for this region. But of course it's not entirely clear what the view is from kashmir itself because there's been limited communications <hes>. Do we have any reason to believe. The kashmir is are quietly happy happy because they they want to be brought more closely into the indian union or do. We have reason to believe that for many kashmiris. This is bad news. There are are different parts of kashmir that india administers it seems that the part called la doc which is majority buddhist that has been hived off and and created into a separate union territory. That section of the state seems happy about this from what we know. There is hindu-majority jehmu region which seems seems quite happy with this from what we know. It does seem that there have been some protests in kashmir but again there's been you know people can't go out on the streets and sort of large scale gail. There have been reports of some protests. It's hard to gauge exactly how dissatisfied people are. Is there disatisfaction. That certainly seems so wanted this decision. Come now. I take the point point that the prime minister mody wanna big reelection victory earlier this year but why this decision august of two thousand nineteen gene in may of two thousand seventeen. That's a question a lot of people are asking and i think the people who know this answer. The best are presumably that very small circle of mr moody and his closest advisers who were in the room when they decided they were going to move ahead with this. I have read different accounts about why they took this decision. Now one version of the stories that they'd actually decided to do some time ago and we're preparing the groundwork much prior to even the elections but got disrupted by the events of february ever-wary twenty nineteen that began with terrorist attack in full lana that was then claimed by a terrorist group in pakistan of course india responded with airstrikes and that took us to an escalation collation at the end of february another version of this story is that the indian government had this on their mind and they were going to chart out a pathway to to do this but they were spurred into faster action by two things in which the united states plays a cameo rule one being president trump's offer offer to mediate between indian pakistan could the end of july yeah when he had his meeting with pakistani prime minister imran khan this of course offer to mediate. I don't know if you remember this but president trump said that prime minister he had asked him to mediate early came to surprise the prime minister mody came as a surprise india because that is historically historically not been india's position in any government so the indian government actually came out very quickly repudiating this story and saying you're confident that that the indian government line is corrected prime minister boaty didn't ask trump to i believe it in fact my best guess about what might have happened. Is that perhaps in a a meeting. Perhaps prime minister said something like we are struggling with the challenge of terrorism from pakistan and that somehow turned into in president trump's tad people are asking me to mediate because that's what american presidents do i mean i i'm guessing here but it's pretty clear that there was no request from the indian side so that what episode at the end of july is apparently one spur in another spur has been indian concern about the ongoing negotiations with taliban any indian governments fear that at the united states would be willing to take a very bad deal that would leave the region in a much greater state of instability that could conceivably result in more terrorists is making their way across into india and into kashmir and really destabilizing the region howard that works as well afghanistan is in the general vicinity. It's still a ways as away from kashmir the indian fear and if you look at history you can understand why this is a real fear is that there may be an outcome in which the taliban taliban with pakistan support end up playing a much larger role with no respect for borders and no desire to ramp down terrorist acts remember was when the taliban had control over afghanistan. There were real problems in the region. There was an indian airlines plane that was flying from nepal back to me. That was hijacked. <hes> ended up being taken where to cantu har. I mean this was you know direct linkages with the taliban there so this was a period of great instability polity for the whole region in india definitely doesn't want to see a return to that cycle at level of terrorism again so this is a real concern weather this and the issue of american merican mediation as proposed by president trump whether those precisely triggered these moves now or whether this had been planned and they were going to announce it at some time. I don't know but that certainly certainly is something that people are mentioning as triggers. The announcement gets made yeah. What is the reaction been in pakistan. Well that has been predictably one of outrage. Pakistan is very upset about a change in the status of j._f._k. India i thought it was actually in many ways a positive move that pakistan's first response has been diplomatic again. There's been such a challenge of terrorism from pakistan in this region that anytime you see a response that is employing diplomatic tools. I say well good right. If a country is upset they should employ diplomatic tools. That's what countries are supposed. I do not use terrorists. Pakistan has announced that they will shut down trade with india. They've downgraded their diplomatic. Is there that much trade between no actually i. I think this was just a sort of a symbolic right this. This has actually no economic effect. I mean there's sort of less than five billion dollars in two-way trade so this really is not a trade volume. That's going to hurt anybody but you know it's always good to be able to say you've got some sort of commercial engagement anyway. It's played the role of a safety valve in this case so oh pakistan shutdown trade has downgraded the diplomatic relationship so they actually we're going to send out a new high commissioner to india in this case now they do not do that and they have told india's high commissioner to go back to india so he's a high commissioner sort of like an ambassador. It isn't ambassador. It's the commonwealth former part of the british so oh they just called high commissioners and pakistan actually yesterday evening went to the u._n. Security council and is hopeful that the security council will take this up for discussion. My personal belief is that the security council is unlikely to do. This wasn't because it's hard to know what they would do. What would the security council's role be in this case and i think well how would you how would you just guessing would you lay out the views of the permanent members mean. What does your position on this issue. China britain the former colonial power the expressed views so far. We've had a very strong expressed view from russia which is historically a very close partner to india russia russia in india think of as a pair. They have a very long standing relationship in for many years and more recently the united states has developed a close strategic relationship with any any of it remember for many years. Russia was india's primary defense partner so a lot of indian military hardware is russian. Russia has come out with a very strong support for india's ideas actions by saying this is purely internal matter for india so there would be obviously russia's already declared its position yeah and you would expect them to veto given that we've seen the indian indian foreign minister who's called external affairs minister had a meeting with the chinese foreign minister and it looks like china has expressed its concerns china. There's a component of kashmir actually that china occupies china cares about that but china has also referred to encouraging bilateral engagement between indian pakistan. I would expect if push came to shove that china would support pakistan. It's all weather friend. They refer to this relationship is higher than the highest mountains deeper than the deepest the oceans that's a very strong relationship between beijing would also like to avoid having to take a definitive because it is cross cutting imperatives here because because it is a country that has regions where there might be separatist movements or outsiders saying should be separate <unk> tibet in the chinese got a number of issues that that it wants wants to clear of <hes> story about that but it has a very close relationship with pakistan. It's it's a very cross pressured. I guess i would say the united states has not said much about this. There was a formal statement of at the state department spokesperson gave the day this happened on august fifth which referred to to the indian government having describe this as an internal matter the statement also referred to having noted being concerned about reports of of detentions and urging respect for individual rights and then of course the statement also said that they are following this closely indifferent press briefings then the state department spokesperson has come back saying that you know support direct dialogue between india and pakistan on kashmir so washington is trying to avoid having avenue. Take a definitive position on this yeah yeah options okay yeah. I think washington is very frustrated with pakistan in the region but i think washington also also wants to encourage india and pakistan to have a level of dialogue. It's important for them to have dialogue. Do you think this noncommittal position by the u._s. Government government is something that is peculiar to the trump administration or would you imagine if he'd been a administration where you work or a bush administration astray shin or a clinton administration. You'd likely get the same kind of noncommittal response. You know. It's been a long standing u._s. Policy i think for almost twenty years ears on kashmir that the pace and scope and character or content of dialogue on kashmir should be determined and should be indian pakistan to determine so that really has been the kind of a framework that the state department that the united states government has thought of this issue issue with it is true that in nineteen ninety nine when pakistan spurred a small-scale war this is the cargo kargil l. war by sending across pakistan military dressed in regular close to look like tribesmen it is true that then actually pakistan's gaston prime minister sought intervention and assistance from the united states and president bill clinton invited him to the united states and told him in no uncertain terms. You need to pull those guys back. So that is the most recent level of involvement that the united states has had basically pressing pakistan to stop its adventurism on this front and of course encouraging dialogue now bill clinton famously said that this part of the world was the most dangerous part of the world because you had to nuclear armed powers rubbing up against each other yeah. Should we be worried. Given the events of the last year. The tension level has ratcheted up notably. We you should definitely be worried and and i would hope that people who are paying attention would pay greater attention to the fragility of this region. I mean i spoke about how how pakistan has so far used diplomatic steps which i think it's really important. We should encourage pakistan to keep its response in diplomatic channels else but frankly. I don't know what's going to happen next. Remember pakistan has an number of terrorist groups who are very focused on kashmir that make their home in pakistan. John pakistan has been under a lot of international pressure over the last couple years to really do more to combat all terrorist groups. The trump administration is certainly ratcheted up this pressure but but even with this level of pressure international attention pakistan has not done everything it can do and how do we know this. How do we measure this well. In the ongoing international process access of something called the financial action task force which is focused on anti money laundering and countering terrorist financing pakistan has been on something called the grey list meaning that they haven't done everything they should do to prevent financial flows from going to terrorist groups well. There was a story in bloomberg what three or four for days ago that said that pakistan realizes it cannot complete all of the steps on its action plan by the upcoming meeting of this financial action task force person. They're seeking china's help to prevent them from being blacklisted. A blacklist in this context would mean being cut off from the international financial systems was actually a pretty big step but that that tells you what a challenge this is to deal with the problem of terrorism in pakistan that after a couple of years of very intense international focus very intensified side american focus on this issue they still haven't done everything they're supposed to do so i worry that that flows and the support and the safe haven that exists for terrorists despite all the pressure to end this stuff could produce you yet more problems and so the real worry here would be something like we saw in february wary..