20 Episode results for "Ogle Tree"

The Chris and Joe Show: Linebacker Offseason Breakdown

Big Blue View

26:08 min | 1 year ago

The Chris and Joe Show: Linebacker Offseason Breakdown

"In this episode is brought to you by Ziprecruiter weren't a brand new year. The perfect time to think about growing your business with Ziprecruiter ziprecruiter's powerful matching technology analogy scans thousands of resumes to help you find candidates with the right experience for Your Business. ziprecruiter is so effective that four out of five employers get a quality quality candidate through the site within the first day. Try ziprecruiter right now for free at ZIPRECRUITER DOT COM Slash Fox that ziprecruiter dot com slash video Alex ziprecruiter dot com slash box ziprecruiter. The smartest way to hire hello and welcome to the Kristen Joe show presented to you bias be nation and big blue you. I'm Judy Leo. Orange Micro Tom and we are continuing our off season discussions of each position group giving you the perspective for the New York giants and then transitioning running in discussing what you need to know about free agents and the draft class. Today we were talking about the linebacker position. We talked talk mostly about the edge position on the previous show in terms of pass rushers today. We're getting a little bit. More focused on the outside linebackers the inside linebackers and a lot of the issues that the giants are dealing with. And I think Chris you and I can both agree. This is one of the biggest positional holes that the giants have right now is not having consistency and a real major playmaker at the linebacker position. We're going to get rolling right on into this and like we have been doing discussing the positives. It's the first thing the one thing that we really did like from this linebacker group. And that's having pass rush versatility from the outside linebackers now. Lorenzo Carter an ocean's is imminent. We're not really true. Pass rushing linebackers. But they were able to be productive despite not getting a ton of run in a ton one of reps both of them had four and a half sacks Carter had six tackles for loss. And then Zimmer says the most surprising though having that four and a half sacks and then also five tackles for loss to go along with it yes That really is kind of part of the edge position. The way devolving is. Sometimes they're linebacker. Sometimes they're defensive end and I think both of those guys is did show that they can do. Both of those positions depending on the down distance alignment package All of those things that are constantly constantly changing on defense. I was pleasantly surprised by o'shane's images especially towards the end of the end of the year. Now I thought he would. We'd have a fairly short learning curve because he did come out with really Polish technique in hand usage especially coming out of a school like Old Dominion it would be one one thing to expect pollen. polished technique coming out of Ohio state or Alabama but Old Dominion is not exactly a football factory Lorenzo Carter under the fact that they produced so similarly is Great Brasilia's not great for Carter just because you would expect him to produce more to take more of a step in his second year in the NFL. Carter like you said did not really take a huge leap forward but we did see some improvements. I think one the things is though is that they didn't really give as many reps as as as we would have hoped to Carter as he wasn't one of the top positional rep getters At at the at the outside linebacker position but still decent production. I think the bigger positive though is oceans. Inez I think he went a little bit under the radar in in terms of people knowing how well he did do and I think when you talk about how he only got around forty five percent of reps During the season season at his position and he was able to be relatively productive as a rookie and as a third rounder. That is pretty promising. Now in terms of Joe Judges New Philosophy of we're GONNA work with guys in there and help them improve their strengths and work with those strengths to become a better. Football team. Zimmer says could very well well fit that mold of. We're GONNA work with him. We're going to keep getting him better. And then turn him into a defensive weapon. Both of these guys though. I think go in line with the philosophy philosophy of having a good defense that you don't need either of them to be your premier pass rush threat but the best defense is in the NFL right now or good. Because they have depth at pass rushing at the pass rushing position they have different guys can come in and swap out on sub packages in various area situations. That can come in make a play. Go pick up a sack. You don't need them to start every single down if they do happen to draft or sign someone to be be those primary threats yet. You also mentioned first. Attila Eighty and I think that could be where. Lorenzo Carter shines lines you know maybe as a primary pass rusher but more is a guy who can give us some pass rush. Who can be a weapon on passing passing down but also a guy who can play in space yet? I don't know about you but at least for me. Most of Carter's most memorable invest snaps. Came with him playing being in space. Either chasing down a screen pass running with a running back or a tight end doing those things really using his length in athleticism to to kind of occupy that middle of the field area where the giants have struggled so mightily to find any answers so dope maybe with a shifting defensive philosophy maybe the giants will use Carter as more of a defensive weapon like you said and maybe that will be his strength and the other thing too. Is that both of these guys are very athletically are talented. They just need to be more refined on a number of different things. Hopefully the new coaching and in having a new coaching staff a new face in front of them will be able to help cultivate that development in that increase in production over over the next few seasons terms of things we didn't like and this is something that I would say we've harped on for a long time. Now since the beginning of the show is Alec Ogle Tree Keep It plain and simple. Go Right to the source here Alec Ogle Tree Albeit. He's not a bottom tier linebacker in this league but he's not really performing up to the contract contracting. He's being given right now right now. He's earning around eleven million dollars a year. which is one of the top linebacker salaries in the NFL in his performances and and also his availability has not been up to that standard so he only had eighty eighty tackles last year a sack and an interception and he also only played in thirteen games in each of the last two seasons not having him available that often for a full sixteen game stretch understandably? It's the linebacker position but not having that that availability for a guy that is being paid to be one of the top players at his position is truly disappointing and Ogle Sri used to be a much more athletic and explosive linebacker when he was younger in earlier on in his career. But you're starting to see that regress from him. We're starting to see continued injuries. We're starting trying to see him slowdown. We're starting to see his reaction time not being as good as it used to be. Look I alkyl. Trees seems like a great guy but I don't really think that he is the answer. Answer Right now at the Mike linebacker position it really does beg the question of if he should be sticking around or not yet. Definitely you mentioned him slowing down. I think that kind of exposes the big weakness in his game and that is just his mental processing in kind of awareness remember. We'd hoped hoped that his uptick in production. At the second half of twenty eighteen would carry over and he would be able to build on that in twenty nineteen but we really didn't see that he had all those interceptions and although splash plays at the end of two thousand eighteen. But it seems like those really were due to just the giants playing bad backup quarterbacks and all too often way too often way way too often you know we saw Ogle tree just kind of covering grass standing there. While offensive players ran through his zone and him Not Reacting until the player or the ball were passed him. We saw him give up touchdowns just looking completely lost in the defense aunts and you know as his athleticism has started to fade. He can't really make up time like he couldn't like he used to be able to. And and that is really having a negative impact on the defense and then his contract is just kind of hamstrings. The giant salary cap gap position. There's not really any other way to put it feeds making. `Bout twenty two twenty two and a half million dollars over the next two years that it's way way too much for the level of play. The giants are getting and if Al Ghul Tree was making a minimum contracts something around maybe five million it would be worth what you're getting for him but the fact that he's earning over ten million dollars and is one of the higher paid linebackers in the NFL. It puts a lot a strain on the CAP. As as you indicated there and I just WanNa say his regression is a pin amazed from one specific player can remember against the Miami Dolphins were. He was pretty. Much stooped out by Ryan Fitzpatrick was not able to really redirect and pick him up and make that play because he reacts slowly and he cut and moved too slowly onto the other negative. We have here and this one is very clear considering the lack of talent at the position. But it's it's the fact that there's not much depth at linebacker spot and once in the beginning of the season Ryan Connolly who had a really good preseason. He was starting to look good good early on in the year as soon as you went down with the season ending injury. It seems like everything went all to hell because there was no one consistent there were different guys popping in and out and there were a lot of problems in run defense despite having a really good frontline of big space. Eating Defensive Tackles and defensive ends. They weren't able to make plays and it was continually on and off during the season that they weren't able to get consistent play from their linebackers Akerson also Alec Ogle tree was in and out. He missed three games this year. And what other guys had to step in and play there was a A WHO's who of the linebacker linebacker position who is in here. And where are they even from. And you could point the finger rated them and saying they're the big reason why the run defense is not looking so good but if you look at the linebackers that are the depth for them at David Mayo stepped in and played most of the season. He didn't really seem like he was an answer. Dan Buchanan who they signed later on. The season did not really play up to the expectations. That a lot of people had hoped was a James Becher piece that was brought in because he was familiar with him in the Joe Cya Ziya to a more of a special teams guy overall though there needs to be an emphasis in this year's draft of at least taking one guy early on during the later rounds. Yeah it's kind of that way with a number of physicians where you'd love to get the guy at the top of the round in May be Circle back around dull damp and get a guy later on. I think I think there are a few teams where you know maybe having David Buchanan as special teams guys as you know maybe be a depth piece who comes on the field here and there you know if your starter needs to tie shoe or something like that but you do not want to have to be relying on them and really. The giants were in In a position where they had to rely on those guys and it really showed. Now we're GONNA fill you in on the upcoming linebacker free agents to be aware of and also this year's linebacker draft class but before Redo that we're going to take a short commercial break. This episode is brought to you by Ziprecruiter. Where in a brand new year? And it's the perfect nick. Time to think about growing your business but hiring talented new people to expand your team can be frustrating and time consuming. If you're not using ziprecruiter you're the ziprecruiter makes finding the right person for your company. Easy they send your job opening to more than one hundred leading job sites and with their powerful on matching technology ziprecruiter skins thousands of resumes to find people with the right experience and invites to apply to your job as applications come in then ziprecruiter analyzes each one and spotlights the top candidates. So you never miss a great match. ZIPRECRUITER's tools are so effective that four out of five employers. Who Post on Ziprecruiter get a quality candidate through the site within the first day our listeners can try ziprecruiter right now? How for free at ZIPRECRUITER DOT COM Slash Fox? That's ZIPRECRUITER DOT COM slash V. o X ZIPRECRUITER DOT COM slash clash. Box ziprecruiter the smartest way to hire. There's a new kind of credit card created by Apple. It's called Apple Card and it lives in your wallet APP and in Your Wallet. You can buy things with apple pay or laser etched titanium card. It sets a whole new level for privacy and security and and it gives you daily cash back with every purchase. Oh and you can apply in minutes just opened the wallet APP on your iphone tap the plus button to get started to learn more checkout apple dot com slash get applecart available for qualifying applicants in the United States issued by Goldman Sachs Bank. USA Salt Lake City branch in terms of free agents for this year. It's a bit of a scarce group so nor discussing the offseason game plan for the linebacker a position. There's not a ton of options for them to go out and sign someone we were saying talking before the show that besides the list that we have accumulated here. It's a lot of guys that are over. The age of thirty two that are a bit over the Hump that would essentially be the same quality or worse than Alec Ogle Tree but I think that if they do for their game plan for this position group if they want to be smart about it they should bring in some type of veteran they should bring in somebody that has been around the league because they can help elevate and bring up the the the level of quality for this defense defense kind of like the chargers did this past off season and bringing in. Thomas Miss Davis from the the panthers while their defense wasn't as good as many people had hoped it could be. That's the type of peace that you're looking for. The other thing too here is is drafting. Isaiah Simmons I'm GonNa keep pushing net that addenda. I'm the biggest supporter of Isaiah. Simmons mins to go to the New York giants is anyone that is out there and I know a lot of people on on on twitter and stuff that are part of giants twitter saying they want Isaiah Simmons. Well I am. I'm currently early in that camp and saying that they should get Isaiah Simmons if they don't get him then draft somebody in the mid round. You need to do both getting a young rookie and also a veteran if they want to to fix a glaring issue for this defense yeah it would have been nice to see more Ryan Conley and know whether or not he could be answered going forward forward. You know if the giants could get away with not signing say dangerously thin or calvin noise and be able to put the load on Ryan. Brian Conley to be there Mike. That would be great to know but unfortunately we don't know a whole lot about him. He had a small sample size before he got got hurt. But yeah the the giants absolutely need to add both at an experienced guy and a young guy to their linebacking core Isaiah. It would be great. I think he should be right at if not the top of the list right close to the top of the list of their draft targets. Maybe a pie in the sky. Hope that a couple teams trade in front of the giants in chase young slips down to him then I think we would all be okay with them Passing on on Isaiah Simmons or you know there are awesome mid round prospects which we will get to in in a few minutes here but it's a it's something the giants Absolutely have to address. And if you if you decide to draft Isaiah Simmons I think that would solve not only the issue of having no major town at the linebacker position but it would infinitely elevate eight that position pass just being average. He's incredibly talented. I'm not trying to make him seem like he's some never before seen talent but the fact that he can play playing multiple positions is exactly what you're looking for in an early round early first round prospect at the linebacker position. It's sonic they're drafting someone. That's just straight up. Might Mike linebacker and can't do anything else. He has the versatility to be on the field for all three downs. And you can ask them to move around in any Defensive sub package that you have out there it needs to be properly looked into and also it needs to be a thought process for Dave Gettleman to consider drafting Isaiah Simmons that four spot if if chase young has gone at that point in terms of the free agents that are available the guys that are going to be likely leaving or currently not under contract are currently going to be free agents rather marcus golden is expected to be a free agent. David Mayo Dan Buchanan Cannon devante downs now replacing those guys. There's a very attractive list like I said the ladder. These guys are a bit over the Hump Their on the older side the closest to that thirty range. That's not too crazy is Danny Trevathan from the Chicago bears and then as we do every single week we have have to bring one patriot. That's Kyle. The giants really have had a preference for players players in personnel. In general that that they're familiar with and with Bret Bielema on the defense Joe Judge as the head coach. There's definitely a strong patriots tie so we have to look at Patriots Free Agents and Kyle Kyle Van Noy is a viable valuable linebacker Linebacker free-agent he's less than thirty. He has been reasonably productive. So I think just just like with the majority in the secondary you'll be Kinda have to consider him and then you also mentioned danger Rathan. He has been very good player for a very long time. Also you're completely right there. Just aren't that many really good attractive linebackers out there because good. linebackers are hard to come by especially finally nowadays in the NFL with all of the various demands placed on the physician teams. That have good ones generally. Don't let them go. That's why you see like the contract. Jalen Smith just got over the summer. It's going to be I think rare for Oh really good impact off ball linebackers to hit the market. That's a really good point that you bring up in teams not being willing to relinquish those guys they typically bring bring them in the develop them and then they become huge impact players now if they draft someone early. That doesn't really hit well. No one really wants a linebacker. That's not playing up to his potential. Those guys bounce around you don't really hear much of one other guy though that there's a very good chance that he doesn't end up leaving is cory little in from the Los Angeles Rams he had one hundred thirty four tackles hackles last year. He's only twenty six years old very very productive very very underrated as their lead linebacker on that defense so so somebody that they could very well look into also Patrick on looser from the Ravens. A very good defense coached up by GRUMMAN WHO's one of the best defensive coordinator there's arguably in the League having a guy like that that's that's smart and productive and also on the younger side could very well fit that. That need of a more veteran veteran but also not too old linebacker that the giants could be looking for the Ravens. Do have a really good track record of drafting Ding. End Developing linebackers. Now obviously they add Lewis an art brown they kind of stumbled with but then they had. Cj Moseley end user. He has really stepped in and the fact that he came up as a undrafted. Free agent has become as good as he is as productive as he is. I think that really does speak to the work. The Ravens do in identifying vying end developing those players so if the giants could get a guy who's again that good and only twenty eighty seven years old. That is definitely something they should look into now onto discussing this year's linebacker draft class. We're GONNA continue. Continue to dive deep into Isaiah Simmons and how much I personally love him. I don't know how you feel exactly about Isaiah Simmons. I do know you like him Chris. But every year people that evaluate traff classes have somebody that they the absolutely love and right now. That Guy's Isaiah Simmons for me. I will continue to talk. came up he needs to be a name that needs to be acknowledged in this year's draft class now if they don't happen to get him because maybe the lions take him at three maybe. The giants decided trade. Read back and focus on other things albeit there are some decent quality guys on day. Two and that starts with Kenneth Murray from Oklahoma also troy die. I'm from Oregon. Who is very fast and very athletic? And then also Evan Weaver from cal who recently played at the senior bowl the guy who kind of damned stands out to me is troy part partly Elsa in large part because he caught my eye during draft prep for last year in a kind of broke the heart a little bit when he decided to return to school. He is a very athletic. I'm very active off ball L.. Linebacker keys reasonably similar in build to Isaiah Simmons. He's not quite that athletic but six for for about two twenty five to thirty. That really is the build and the type of linebacker that That we're starting to see really really be successful. You know kind of guide dairies. Leonard was for the A couple years ago a Bobbio creaky was this past year. Now we've I've seen one team come up with basically to defensive rookie of the year caliber players with a very similar type. You know very similar body type very similar game so I think that is something we really should be keying on and trying to identify other thing too. That doesn't need to be acknowledged. There are a couple of players in this year's draft that we've spoken about in pretty good detail that aren't linebackers backers but could be that versatile piece and that is Jeremy Chen from southern Illinois and Kyle Duggar from Lynn. Warn Rhine. Small school guys very very athletics SAFETIES that can move all over the field that are very quick very fast processing and can make big plays now. Duggar had the better senior bowl performance and we saw him make some really really good place during the senior bowl. He was the guy that I really enjoyed watching. He's somebody to keep an eye on the. We'll probably dive a little bit more into during the safeties and defensive back show show but he is someone worth considering because he has that versatility to be that box safety Who can cover? Who can do a number of things besides just being that that bigger box safety? Yeah in both of those guys also have enough size to play at the second level played. Closer to the line a scrimmage while having the athleticism to cover and really be all over the field play back a little bit in coverage of Ridge and then come down rush the passer play the run through be that kind of safety linebacker hybrid nothing. They will be that but they at least have the potential to be considered in that kind of a light right. That is going to be it from us today on the linebacker off season show next X. Show that we're GONNA be giving you as yet another mailbag we're getting back to it. The spite getting slightly away from during the senior bowl trying to get you all that content. Durham the senior bowl. But if you have any any questions be sure to send it into our g mail account big blue view g mail dot com or you can send it into our facebook page and additionally on social media at big blue view can also tweet at us at Joe Dealey own at Raptor M. K.. I also be sure sure to rain. Subscribe wherever you're listening to us.

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How the Giants defense can improve in 2019

Big Blue View

30:22 min | 2 years ago

How the Giants defense can improve in 2019

"Hello. I'm Spencer hall from Espy nation, and I want to tell you about my new show. It seemed smart it seems smart as a show about people doing things that for some reason or another seem smart at the time. Those things might include doing a little cocaine and driving a bike up a mountain or I don't know, maybe racing one hundred miles per hour across the country in the middle of the night with no one's permission or even stealing a bat from an Pires room in a major league baseball park. Check it out. And if you like it Tele friend. I'm Spencer hall. Don't do anything smart. Everybody knew I Patel editor and chief of the verge and this is the verge cast. I is the flagship podcast the verge every week. We cover the latest in tech news reviews. We took a critical look at what is going on now. And next in the world of tech show's by me, our executive editor dealer bone. Not your friend and Paul Miller. It just feels like there's something wrong with all computers, though. Don't you think that sometimes we do that on Fridays? And on. Tuesdays interview episode IV in talking to all kinds of influential people inter- on the world attack. We've talked to Microsoft founder, Bill Gates about his film throughout the efforts, you can design systems, without having to reveal any individuals strategic your medical record, journalists academics Lena Khan who thinks that we should be doing way more to break up giant companies like, Amazon, Facebook hindsight, allowing casebooks to buy up both. What's up and Instagram proved been the wrong call? And we talked to tech CEO's videos Bill Baxter explained exactly how smart TV manufacturers make their money. It's about post purchase monetization of the TV. It's ads. It's ads check us out every Friday to your everything intact from new iphone leaks to breaking down Facebook's ongoing issues of private. See to me, and Paul ranting each other about the role of the government and check us out on Tuesdays when I have seen every episode. Subscribe diverse chace wherever podcast reserved. We'll see them. The big review podcast. I am Dan Zuta. Join tear by Chris flow. Chris how're you doing today? Just another nice Thursday, at least as we're recording, I presume Friday, will be nice. Yeah. I think it's supposed to be. So, again, not actual football going on some OT, as the, the past couple of practices for the giants have not been open to the media. So we haven't really seen a lot since we talk to U, S A. So I think what we're going to. So what we're going to do. Today is kind of an extension of what we did last week at the end of the week when we took a look at some of the things the giants could improve on, on the offensive side of the ball from twenty eighteen to twenty one thousand nine we're going to do that on the defensive side of the ball today, and it's going to be a little different because on defense because it's so reactive. There's not as many things you can't control on the defensive side of the ball to be more efficient, I think by getting some better players in which the giants have done at some positions, not head some others that will help but we can just look at where the giants. Struggled a little bit, and the ways they can control fixing that in twenty nineteen and there were some places to fix the giants last year were only twenty fourth in Devia way they were twenty six against the past one against the rush. So there are some places where they can certainly improve heading into this coming season. Oh, definitely. And that's pretty much what they have made their off-season about. They quadruple down on Cornerbacks in the draft swapped out, Landon Collins forge, bro peppers, brought in Antoine Bethesda drafted a new rusher in oceans, as new defensive lineman in Dexter Lawrence, at least with personnel. There has been a ton of turnover yet that seemed to be from Dave gentleman's post-season, a press conference that. That appeared to be where the giants were really going to focus because even like we said, on the, the authentic show west week there were pieces in place. There were things that showed the offense could potentially be good if they fix or change a few things defensive side of the ball was a totally different equation of because we said this a lot during the season when we were doing our, our post game podcast as the reviews we talked about how many times the offense just was kind of lacking because of planning and good play calling but the defense was just a lack of good players. And that's what really hamstrung them last year because you can only do so much when Curtis Riley is your deep safety, and you can quibble with. They are the people responsible for Curtis Riley being that deep safety last year. But that will be the issue this year because we will talk about the, the personnel changes but personnel was a big thing. They seem to have fixed some of that. They have made an effort in some places so we will just get into wear the issues. The giants had that they can possibly control now going into twenty nineteen and the first thing I think we talk about is third down defense. So this is going to be an interesting thing because for a lot of things this is offense and defense into looking for one year to the next third-down is usually, the least predictable from year to year typically on offense and defense. How you are on first and second down translates better to the next year. Then how you are on third down for the giants. Last year, they were pretty decent on first and second down. But they were one of the weeks, worst third down defenses. And I think it's the way they were a bad third-down defense last year, which kind of concerns me a little bit, but also shows a path forward for improvement so per football, outsiders, who attrac- where throws. On third down to our in relation to the first down marker and they call that stat. Alex, which is area arts less of the sticks. It's kind of a not to Smith, one of the most conservative passers in the NFL so purred that stat the giants on defense last year saw fifty percent of throws against them behind the first down marker that was the second highest rate in the week. And usually we've seen football also put out a study that shows that just throwing past the sticks on the third down is good. You get better more consistent results when you do that then when you don't we've talked about that during the giants offense talking about that very often. So the giants face half of their throws fifty percent of throws. They face on third down where behind the sticks, but they were twenty eighth in Devia way on third down and twenty second in conversion rate allowed on. Downs. So teams were just doping. The ball off throwing short of the sticks on third down. But the giants were still allowing conversions at a super high rate that should not have been the case for how often the ball was getting thrown behind the first down line. Yeah. And that's just speaks to poor tackling or players being just very out of position to things we did comment on during the season, especially early in the season. We noticed a lot of Aleka will tree staking out his own and defending that grass the last, but not being so great at picking up the players running through it curse Riley also did that, but he also had a lot of other issues like recognition taking officiant, angles and also tackling with Ogle tree that did improve over the course of the season, especially as giants played some backup quarterbacks who. Did a very good job of leading him to the play with their eyes. But even independently of that after the bye week, he did seem more comfortable naked improve. But just having a rate of giving up dump off and allowing them to be converted like that not great yet. And that's one of the things that's it's another part of this is the giants were thirtieth in the away on passes too short middle of the field. That's where you would expect or middle linebacker to be in position to make plays. That is the middle linebackers responsibility, or the inside linebacker. If you're playing three four but because of nickel in what actual base is. No one's actually three four four three. That doesn't matter. Alec. Ogle tree was mostly responsible for a lot of those passes. And it was either he was getting in beating coverage like we said through zone where he wasn't really reactive as quickly as he should be. He was one. One of the players with the highest rate of broken tackles last year. And that's been an issue for him throughout his career a, so that's a place where the giants had a clear weakness. They can maybe do something for it. But Ogle tree is probably when he's on the field probably still going to play the ninety nine percent of the defensive snaps that he did. I think you could possibly look around it. I think on the Rams in twenty seventeen the Rams were fairly good at defending the short middle. They were worse short middle than they were short to the left and right. So it was still kind of the weak link there that just kind of had a better defense around him. So I think if you get some help from some of the other linebackers, maybe if you have Gebriel peppers playing in the box more, depending on how the giants are going to structure their defense in that way. But. But I think that, that short area of the field is really somewhere where they're going to have to make an effort to improve. And whether that's just hoping Ogle tree improves or really being proactive in giving some help in that area of the field. That's something I think they really need to take stock of heading into the season. Definitely the giant wanna have him be there every down. Mike linebacker just for ease of nomenclature they might wanna look at having BJ Goodson take more reps in passing situations because not only is he generally good coming downhill is very good at stacking shedding offense of in the run game. He's a thumbprint but he also had the in this is per pro football focus. Goodson actually had the fifth lowest completion percentage against of any defender in the NFC east last year. Granted he wasn't on the field. All that often impasse. Situation. So that's going to help him. But it's at least something to take a look at. At least before the game start to count. You have Louis in. We got a Ryan Conley there. There's not a lot. The giants did at linebacker. So we'll see how that gets fixed if at all. And some of this might just naturally be fixed with, like we said the giants were a little better on first and second down that they were on third down that should project better. So they're likely to be better on third down because of how they were first and second down last year. That's just how those down translate from year to year was one of the things that the giant did make an effort to improve. And one of their biggest weaknesses last year was deep passes. They were just bad defending passes deep. They were twenty fours in Devia way and indeed for those who should know if you've listened to this podcast long enough, it's just football outsiders just down to down efficiency the metric missiles, they were twenty fourth in Devi away, on deep passes and a one of that was due to. Curtis Briley being the deep safety, most of the time playing single high being the guy responsible for defending the deep acids from silent island sideline. And that was just as we saw a job. He was not very capable of the giants did go out and make an effort to improve at safety. They got Antoine buffet which some people are not high on signing for his age. But I like Anton potato what he was probably my favorite signing. They had this off season. I think he has the ability to still play that deep the safety position. Haith does have the sideline decide rage. I think he has good instincts to break on the ball. And then when you add Michael, Thomas Dubuque peppers kind of has that ability little bit in twenty seventeen he had that weird safety position where he plays ninety five yards off the ball because that's where Williams put him. So that's really his main experience playing deep safety. But I think if you're looking to see. See what the giants are going to do based on what they did last year. I think if you have buffet deep you have peppers in the box bore. I think buffet can still handle that deep safety position. And I think that should be a significant improvement over what the giants did last year, which was one of the worst defense is in the week in a well in deep passes. They were the worst defenses in the league in allowing big plays. They were twenty eight in big play rate, and that's her Bill. Conley of SP nation. So I think that is one place where they really struggled less year and then made an effort to improve this year, and that should probably be the biggest improvement. They have on defense. I think yeah, definitely, it's something I think both of us have said a number of times, and that is the importance of a free safety, especially in a defense light, the giants run, we know they're going to want to blitz. They let's allot last year. They're going to want to blitz this year. And a lot of their moves just point directly to a blitz, heavy defense, especially. Doing. So heavy on the secondary getting so many new corners, and also basically just making a lateral move at pass rusher. I yes, they added Marcus golden ano-, Shane's Inez, but one's a rookie and the other still needs to prove that he is an elite pass rusher after his ACL, so they're probably going to be leaning on scheming up pressure. And in a lot of these pressure packages. The free safety is kind of the linchpin just because he is the guy who communicates in the secondary. He is the one who basically. Gives help where it needs to be to make sure the quarterback. Can't throw over the blitzes head or over the head of the Blitzer. Yeah. And that was one of the problems the giants had the last year, especially and really any time they made Curtis Briley move. So when you look at what the giants of where in the middle of the field, they were actually pretty good. But because the giant so often played a single high safety, which means Riley was usually just standing back in the middle of the field because of his positioning, the giants were pretty good there. But anytime you've made him move to his right. Or left to get a deep ball. Then that's where the giants reassure gold. And that's where they were some of the words in the league on too deep passes on each side of the field. So, but I think because buffet has that range, I think, because there might be a little better coverage that. Could help just get the pass rush. They're more the quarterbacks of shouldn't have as Queen of a pocket to make those throw. So I think all of those things together should improve where these deep passes come from an lot of turned into big plays. And that's where the giants really got themselves into trouble as year. Definitely and another thing, I, I'm kind of hoping to see or at least definitely wanna look for once training camp and the preseason gets here is what the giants do with Julian love and core Ballantyne, they've already mentioned, a possible cross training if not straight up conversion to safety for love, which I think that, that could be potentially awesome. If he has that the versatility to be maybe a nickel safety or I should say nickel corner dime safety. That sort of thing. You so good at corner in college. I'm not sure I like the idea of moving him to safety full-time, but that being said, with Ballantyne with his size in athletics them, and at least from what I have been able to find on tape of him, which it's tough for some reason, there wasn't a whole lot of Washburn football on ESPN, but he has the size the range in the physicality that may be conversion to safety is in the future for him and a brother name before, maybe like Bennett Jackson, who the giants drafted out of Notre Dame a few years ago who actually looked quite good at free safety alongside Landon Collins before injuries basically ended his his career with the giants. I would love to see some more of five and six defensive back looks from the giants. If you could get. Possibly Jacobson's Bill. Baker in love on the field at the same time with maybe like peppers playing pseudo. Like linebacker the money back vision than you have faith deep. You have Ogle tree and golden as, as the linebacker as the other linebackers, you could have three damn lemon, or you take one of those Lyman out and you add one of the other pass rushers, you can have it Carter. And, and golden as as the edge rushers and Ogle tree and peppers as linebackers and then sixty -fensive backs and when you have the skill set of some of these guys and like you said with love, we've kind of been trying to figure out what his role was going to be both of us liked him as a corner. The giants kinda said they wanted to use him in the nickel little bit, which he did on about a quarter of his snaps in college than they've also said, they want to use him as a safety. I'd be okay with three safety work with him. Their IT said we don't want to see that full-time. But I think when you. Can kind of mix and match with this personnel and might be one of the bright spots. This giant defense has with, with no one. That's a really outstanding that has to be on the field. A certain position when you can kind of mix and match what they're going to do that could be to their benefit where you just have this defensive personnel that James Beshir can just kind of throw anyone in any spot, and how effective that's going to be is still unknown of the quality of these guys, especially what we talk about this secondary of how young basically everyone is except for ginormous Jenkins. And, but there and say, yeah, I was mostly thinking of the corners. I guess, for that point. But yeah, but say too. But if you just looking at the corners, the grant Haley is like the second most experienced guy, and he was an undrafted rookie last year. So it's going to be a lot to ask of these secondary guys. But the way you can mix and match them. I think could be good potential. For whatever this defense is going to look like definitely and speaking sub packages, I did a piece earlier this week, looking at one of Jane's, Becher splits calls. And to me, the most striking thing of it was there were no defensive lineman on the field. There was one player with his hand in the dirt. That was Lorenzo Carter lining up at nose tackle the only other linebackers on the field. It was a dime. Defense, the only other linebackers were I believe Alec old tree, and Olympia, Vernon everyone else on the field was either a corner or a safety. So we know he has a willingness to coal these sorts of personnel packages. So I'm feeling we'll probably see more of that considering the investment in the secondary again and let's get weird. I think that's an extension of something Mark Scofield ROY. Wrote this week for a pats pulpit, the Espy nation. New England Patriots site is a book at some of the things Bill Belichick has done taken from the college level, to defend against spread concepts now, and that's like, three men lines disguising, which defensive lineman or coming. It's a great piece. I go Redan it kind of going to be the future of defensive football. I think that's something James better has the ability to do did not have the ability last year with the personnel, given a we'll see if the personnel this year is going to give him the ability to do that. But I think there is the potential to, to mix and match more that as we figure out what these roles are going to be. And I think that's going to eat us into the next thing which is going to be another topic we've discussed a couple times, and we're going to come at it a little different way now. And that's converting the pressure. You're getting into sex because as. As much as we talk about how good pressure is, I've said that many times on this podcast. You do want to get these sex. But when you look at what does translate from year to year like I said, with first and second down. You're more likely to improve on third down. If you were bad there, but good on first and second down for Saks if you're good at generating pressure, you're more likely to get sacks the foaming season because pressure rate from year to year is more stable than than secretaries. So I did a quick look at this all teams from twenty fifteen to twenty eighteen the sack percentage from one year to the next year had a correlation of just zero point one eight. So that is very low the closer you are to one the higher. It is correlated a pressure rate from year to year was Eero point four eight. That's substantially higher pressure rate to sacree the next year was zero point three five. So as you see a pressure rate is better predictor of pressure. Great the next year. And it's a better predictor of sack rate the following season, then just looking at a previous season saccharine. So those are just some quick numbers to show that pressure does matter and does, usually mean more sacks or going to come. And that's important for the giants defense because they were good at creating pressure last year. The best person at creating pressure is no longer on the team. But I think some of the scheme some of the blitz packages, or like you talked about are going to continue. So I think they have the should have the ability to create some of this pressure. And even if the pressure goes down a little bit just from regressionist sacree is probably likely to go up. So that could also help out this defense. They're definitely going to have to figure out how to replace Libya, Vernon's production. He was responsible for a quarter of their pressures, and that's just since he came back over all even counting the weeks he was injured. He was responsible for almost a fifth of their pressures. That is a lot to make up. Definitely has said a couple of times already this show, try to use their scheme us, so packages generate pressure from just unexpected places create confusion along the offensive line, and we get weird with it, but they'll also be counting on hopefully, some more consistent interior, rush from EJ hill. Hopefully, a big push from Lawrence and again, golden returning to form to hopefully, they'll have that at least that base of pressure there, and then they can work on turning that pressure into sacks. Yeah. And how they create pressure. I think is going to be the, the bigger the question because I think it is going to have to be schemed. A little more just because of their personnel, you are hoping Marcus golden. Does return to his twelve and a half sack form. A but even in that twenty sixteen season of what he did had the twelve and a half sacks. He had twenty two quarterback hits. So that is a fifty seven percent conversion rate, a which I've done some work on. And usually the average is about forty three percent of quarterback hits turns into sack. So he was a little bit of an over achiever there. So you would expect that to regress a little bit. So I don't think he was a like a true talent level twelve and a half sack guy. So I think that might be a bit of a concern, I think you look at, like Lorenzo Alexander in that season also had twelve and a half sacks on twenty two quarterback heads. And then the following season Alexander had fifteen quarterback hits and just three sacks. So you kind of see how that goes back and forth there. And that's usually something that regresses to the mean little bit. And there are. Are some players who are historically just better? At converting sacks than than other players are. But so kind of wonder what Goldens true talent level is there. But like you said they're going to have to create some of that pressure. I think with the coverage the inferior and apologies. If there is some background noise, it just started pouring, as we are recording this. So with that coverage in theory, getting those guys. And I like a lot of those guys in a vacuum like we'd said and we discuss at, like, when they were drafting, especially that group. But whether that comes together, as a good solid group that comes together employs well in their first year is going to be a question. Mark is going to affect the pass rush. Just as much. So I think there's still a lot of questions. But I think we can see where the giants did struggle where they kind of did work to get a will better or where just numbers suggests that regression. Is going to make them look a little better. Even if they play better or not. And I think there's some areas where this defense maybe can improve a widow bit. And maybe by the sake of, of numbers, and how bad they were in some very high variance parts of the field last year. They could get better to even though two of their best players on defense are no longer on the defense. Whether that's enough to make them in average defense a slightly below average defense. I think that's going to be the question or whether them playing better. And the difference in talent is going to keep them in, in the same place that I think that's a possibility too. But I don't think they'll be as bad at some of the places they were bad last year and that basically it if you can keep doing the things you did well because the giants did do some, some things well on defense last year. Dimensioned how bad they were in the middle of the field. But at least on short passes, generous Jenkins was good. According to night, he was bad yet a bad year overall, but at least according to football, outsiders the giants ranked third in league in short passes to the offense of left, which is where Jenkins played. So hopefully he can at least be good in that area and with improved play from like the at in the deep middle portion of the field or improved play from whoever the slot corner is going to be. He Jenkin he Jenkins that is can improve on his play down the field as well. Which would be an incredible boost to the defense. Yeah, there's a lot of things and, and why we kinda talking in generalities with the defense instead of the offense is because just a lot of things from defense are just a very unstable from year to year. So there's a lot of unknown of what the defense can be looking at a good defender, where a bad defense does not likely mean there's going to be a good defense where a bad defense the following season like it does on offense where we can look at what the giants did not do well and what they can do better. So this, we can just kind of look at what they didn't do, well, what signs can point to how they maybe can improve their so that's why these conversations are just a little bit different. So I think for that we're going to end this episode here that thank you for all of you guys did give us a good. Ratings after last week's episode. Appreciate that, if you continue hitting those, those five star reviews that would be awesome that really helped us out, especially through this stretch of the off season where we're still trying to give out some decent content. I hope I hope you feel the same way also. So you can find our work on a big with you dot com. You can follow big view on Twitter at big blue view, if all big review on Instagram at big underscore, Blu underscore view, you fo me on Twitter at damp, Zuta. If all Chris on Twitter, at raptor. M K, I thank you for listening, and we will talk to you again soon.

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Big Blue reView: A WIN IN SAN FRANCISCO

Big Blue View

40:09 min | 2 years ago

Big Blue reView: A WIN IN SAN FRANCISCO

"Hey, everyone on today's show. We break down the giants win over the San Francisco forty Niners on Monday night football, including how the past protection improved and how that helped ally. Manning and how the giants can adjust some of their covered issues on the defensive side of the ball and four more on this game. Please go to biglou view dot com. Check out all the content we have there. So let's get to the show. Hello and welcome to the big blue review. I am damp. Is you two joined by Chris lung, and we are here to talk about a giants win is that right yet? They somehow they managed to get a win the tried not to but I guess one of the teams had to win eventually for the giants had a twenty seven twenty three win over the San Francisco forty Niners on Monday night football. It came down to the giants. Final drive which was which was a game winning drive by the giants and UI manning. It was a weird drive. It was not a normal March down the fields getting chunks of yards at a time and punching it into the end zone. It was it was a strange final drive. It was more of a drunken stumble down the field read out what what hap-. On this. Dr so starts with such back incomplete to Beckham thirty one yards to Ingram. A which was really nice play Ingram had a little hesitation, then slipped out to the outside had a free sideline. Six yards to Ingram of pass negative three yards to Barclay awesome. So we're still doing that. That's cool two minute warning than there was a false start on will Hernandez than there was a defensive holding on Malcolm Smith on Barkley that ended up being a automatic first down which was going to be on a third and twelve that was a pass that was again going to be to Barclay of well behind the line of scrimmage us of the giants dot a bit of a gift there because they would not have picked up that first down if the past was completed and there wasn't a penalty. So then we go to the next I down then there's a holding penalty on Jim on Brown's that sets up a I in twenty then there's an incomplete. Then they got a second in twenty. There is defensive pass interference on a pass to Beckham. So that sets up a first down then another incompletion to Evan Ingram than a nice glow. Angle round to sick one Barkley the forty Niners. Had it looked like they were trying to double cover Barkley, but both defenders were on the outside. So when Barkley cut in he had free room to run down the middle of the field and that was twenty three yards than another past you Ingram for nine yards. And then the quick pass to sterling shepherd for a three yard touchdown. Oh, what a penalties a lot of weird plays. But overall it ended up with the giants going ahead and setting up. What was eventually a game winning drive? Yeah. Like, I said a drunken stumble of drive, but it worked out, and they actually used some things that we have been the. Table is broken from us. Banging it so hard, you know, like with the angle route to Barclay or actually getting Ingram down the field. He is so good at those. Kind of stick nod. Double moves where the defender almost expects him to run like a hook route or occur curl route or something like that. And then he turns it up field and just uses that speed. And so nice to see he should use it more or rather it should be called for him more and again with Berkeley, get him past the line of scrimmage. Get him some open field and let him do what? He does. Good things happen. Yeah. So for Ingram. He had five targets for the game. Four of them were on that last drive now, I kind of joked on Twitter, it's been just been a season-long con to not use Evan Ingram. So there's no tape of him when you need to throw to him downfield in a game winning situation. Oh, which was a joke. But kind of also the truth because there really is not this year of Evan Ingram. Running down the field. Which they did. And then yet Barkley they started the drive throwing to him behind the line of scrimmage. They tried to run a short pass to him on that third down that the there was the holding a where he would not have gotten the first down. If there wasn't. But the big play twenty three yards came on a nice ankle round. So he had twenty three yards there. Here we had thirty three yards receiving in game. So they did not use him a lot tried to use them on a wheel route earlier in the game. They actually ran a wheel route of but either it was supposed to be back shoulder pass and Barclay didn't know that or it was a terribly thrown ball by ally. Because something did not look right there. Either way. Or it could be there. Just so not used to throwing that route. You'll I wasn't quite sure where to put it just judging by how Elec through the bowl he looked confident about where he was placing it. And he dropped it about where you would expect back shoulder pass to land right by the sideline where Barclays back shoulder would have been. So I'm wondering if there wasn't a miscommunication there one thing for ally. Aways looks confident win breeze hell to make it throat the results of that throw vary wildly buzz. But there's always like local for confidence before the throw say it didn't look like an under throw. It didn't look like he was trying to get out. Get it out in front of him. And just didn't have the IMF for it. Yeah. It didn't look like the deep pass to Odell where you could. Well, he put everything he had on it and fifty five yards is about all he had the. Yeah. There was that one pass to back them. He will wide open. And you see Beckham did a real good job spotting the ball realize. He was not going to be able to continue running on. He added try to stop for it. And by the time the ball got there. There were two guys he were able to break it up. So yet that was definitely a problem that ended up not being a problem that flip the game. Because Beckham was able to score twice on. They had that game winning drive to get them there. I'm so let's talk about the offense of little bit. I think one of the takeaways a lot of people had was that the offensive line just blocked better. That was partly the case especially early in the game. So per next gen stats. Lamenting had never of two point six seconds to throw which. No is his actual league average. So they weren't getting the ball out quicker. But the pockets were there San Francisco just didn't have much of an actual pass rush. They they just weren't getting to ally until waiter in the game. They did little bit of where they finally did have a sack, but it's San Francisco's pass. Rush has just not been something that's been there a lot this season. And I think we saw that I think that made the job of the authentic line. A widow easier while they were going tips go with seventeenth in defensive pressure rate coming into this game per football, outsiders, a lot of their talent comes from from the interior and deforest Buckner has been really good this season. But on the edge. They don't really have that. I think one thing is this. We can focus on Jim on Brown. If you've was the new edition. In there on the inside. I think he was really good early. He fell off a bit towards the end of the. Yeah, he he picked up a stunt early in the game on the first touchdown to Odell Beckham. There was a late stunt, and he picked it up real well that was rusher coming into ally. But he adjusted and and got it and gave him time to throw not sure if any of the guards earlier in the season would have been able to pick up the stunt when they they wouldn't have. And so that probably would have been a quarterback kit or a sack of. So that was nice. But yeah, waiter in the game Brown started to fall off a little bit. There was there was the holding penalty on the last drive. He blew a block that gave up a sack in the second half. And that that was the only sack San Francisco had, but that was that was a block from Brown. So so we was hit and miss but on the offense of line this year that hit and miss. It's probably a appropriate result. You're going to take the fact that there were hits that he had successful plays that picking up that stunt that allowed the touchdown probably earned him a second contract here. So that was that was good to see I think the fact that ally had relatively reliable blocking up front in the middle particularly from the guard positions definitely helped him. He's always been more confident more capable when he has a pocket he can step up into there were plays where he actually stepped up and evaded pressure. That was coming off of the edges, particularly from Chad Wheeler side, and that was good to see. Yeah. There was there was a comfort. So while the time to throw wasn't much different than he's had the the situations in which he had that time to throw. I think were different. There wasn't going to be someone in his. Face constantly as he was getting the ball off. And that I think played a part. And I think that's that's part of what made him look better. Now with with this win in the game. When he drive I think we have some type of narrative that ally. Manning is back. I think he was fine in this game overall. I he had the three touchdowns which definitely help one of them came from the ten one came from detail or sorry, the three. So you know, I it's not like they were getting big chunks of yards in the passing game. I mean, the average six point one yards per tempt. Obviously the three touchdowns help he had eighty five point three QBR, which means a quarterback basically who played light E Y of you'd expect to win eighty five point three percent of the time. I think the the play calling and how the game play out in the first and second half were completely changed because you liked started the game six of nine for twenty six yards. Which was two point nine yards per tent, but he had a touchdown. So he had a quarterback rating of one seven point two. So please don't tell me that quarterback rating is than stat of when you can throw for two point nine yards per attempt and still have a quarterback rating of one seven you're. But that's that's what it was early. But late I think they threw the ball downfield a little bored. You li- ended up with an average death. Target of eight point five per next gen stats, which is fine. That's about average issue of where we're looking at where where most quarterbacks have been at it's better than like the six or so he usually has a definite offense isn't going. Right. So there were definitely some more downfield throws which which is good. They didn't all connect. But I think just getting the ball out there. Definitely helped. Yeah. I that's what this offense is built to do when you've got three of your top. Four receiving targets have legitimate for four speed. You gotta get them down the field and the change in game plan at halftime, which maybe the forty Niners going on a seven seven and a half minute drive that just chewed up clock and putting them up two scores. Played a role in it. But the changing game plan from the first after the second half was dramatic. The fact that you'll I finished with an average depth the target of eight and a half yards and was only going about two and a half. In the first half is. Honestly impressive just showed how much further on the field. He was throwing the ball on his average bass in the second half. Yet. Really looks like two completely different game plans and the passing improving in the second half. Is is definitely what helps the offense? I mean, look like it did I still don't think the offense looked particularly good. But I think we can agree. It was the passing that got them there. And it was not the running game. I think we're going to. Okay. So we're we're gonna have some narrative that comes out here. Someone is that the giants are now wanna to know when saquon Barkley carries the ball twenty times or more. So he got twenty carries. The only sixty seven yards of by expected points added negative three point eight two expected points added on those carries. He had six successful carries. In the first half. He finished the game with six successful carriers. So that's just a thirty percent success rate, which is not great percents success rate in the second half. Yeah. Yes. Zero percent success rate in the second half on on his carries. That's it's not good. The giants, man. The giants. Love running the ball on second and ten after incompletions and all that does is sets up third and long. Yeah. That's kind of what what a lot of carries did in the second half, so depre-, please don't make this argument. Breeze. Don't listen to anyone who may be argument that the balance between run pass what helped the giants because it was not a Barclays running was was not good in this game. No, I don't know how you can call a run game successful. When it relies on the running back stringing together jump cuts and making. Two three four defenders miss in the backfield and then carrying a fifth for another extra three yards. If he happens to get past the line of scrimmage, that's not a successful run that s- elva lot of work by the running back, and it's not sustainable, which is something we have seen time and time and time and time and time again this year, the giants can't run block just at all. And any success? They have is basically saquon Barkley putting on his Cape. But you can't expect him to do that twenty times when you're passing game is actually working back to can't expect him to do that twenty times at all, you know, it's not sustainable. No. You can you can try to give him the ball twenty times. And hope maybe one or two of them are something that breaks, and that's which is the run scheme. Right. And that has been what the giants have done so far. This season. But then you get the low success rates that Barclay has. And then you have the the games like this where there was the eighteen yard run put that was that was it and San Francisco was able to hold Barkley for for the rest of the game. So take out that eighteen yard run and embarked we had nine thousand nine other carries for forty nine yards that that's that's not part of its successful offense. That's not how you run. So you can say yet they they kept with the running game. And that's why the offense was bad. But I think if you say that you're wrong. I'm just gonna just gonna put it like that. I if you think that because Barclay got twenty carries and because there was some commitment to the run game that really had no impact on how the offense went. So what you're saying is they establishing the run didn't set them up for success on the deep passes later on. No, no. No, eventually, we will kill that narrative. Yeah. Yeah. What happened on the deep passes later on is temperatures. Go is not very good in pass coverage when it comes to not being Richard Sherman. Yeah. And verge Sherman is exactly the wrong kind of cornerback you want covering Odell Beckham. Yeah. That that wasn't bad. I think the giants did a pretty good job of keeping Beckham away from Sherman on plays that mattered because sermon is still a guy who's going to play one side of the field. Yes. Played to the right side of the offense. And the giants real to move Beckham around all his big plays came on the left and that was good. I think one thing I didn't like, and if we go back to that that game winning drive the first play was passed to Beckham who was lined up on the right and against Sherman us. So that seemed weird to me to start that Dr trying to target Richard Sherman when the? The the alternative is to not do that. And it's very easy to not do that you just lined Beckham up on the other side of the formation. Eventually, of course, it didn't really matter because they somehow got down the field. But yeah, I think the giants did did a pretty good job of avoiding Sherman. They did a lot to to the left side you through eight passes to to the right side of the field completed four for sixty six yards. But all three touchdowns that came to to the left side. So you lie was four for four between ten and twenty yards on the west side for seventy one yards. So when when the giants were having success, it was going to the left and go into way from Sherman. So I think that was that was a good part of the plan in at least plays that mattered went to that left side. Yeah. Definitely I that's the downside of having a. A corner who is really good. But only plays sides. It's too easy to avoid them. You need to good corners. If you're gonna do that. Right. Yeah. And that's something. San Francisco doesn't really have at the moment. So if we want to talk about exploiting, a pieces of a defense, the we have to talk about what San Francisco did a which is something smart teams should do. So the first half game plan apparently for the forty Niners was if they saw waving Collins one on one against George Cato was throw to George Kittle which throw it to George hill is a good move, regardless of when he's definitely one on one coverage with Landon Collins. That's definitely something an offense should want to exploit and then when San Francisco shifted to the second half the game plan was whoever Alec Otari is covering throw to him. And that was. Something that worked out pretty well for San Francisco. Yeah. Kiddle is a good tight end. He's going to give a lot of players difficulties in coverage. But also Landon Collins is not great in man coverage especially against. More athletic players in Kittle is an athletic tight end. He's maybe not quite as athletic as Evan Ingram. But he's also not far behind him either. I'm actually not sure if that's true. So if you go back to that draft class, which was like, a historically athletic a draft class purrs spark which kind of is as a composite testing score that takes all the combine results and kind of puts them together kiddle was the most athletic of that group. That included Ingram that included OJ Howard that was historically athletic group and kill actually was the number one tight end in spark a so he he was just as athletic as as the guys who've got drafted way ahead of him in that class. He'll we went into fifth round. But which was kind of crazy. Well, I would say or he did rate higher with the spark and Graham, I believe. Rang slightly higher in just raw athleticism, just straight numbers. But he also weighs a little bit less than killed us. There's different of about nine pounds between them. So like, you know, forty are Angra about a tenth of a second faster. He jumped about an entire kiddle had a hit a four seven seven short shuttle to Ingram's four point two three and he had a seven second three Cohn at hit. I was pro day, which is pretty time should always be a little bit suspect. But at the combine Ingram had six point nine two. So just in terms of raw absolute ability to move Ingram is able to do it a little bit better. But kill is almost as good and he's a little bit bigger. So they're both really good athletes, and it's both a bad matchup for Landon Collins, who's pretty fast in a straight line. But that's about it. Yeah. So. Early in the broadcast. And I'd want to talk about the commentary as little as possible. But meant the Monday night booth issues. It's terrible it, but so early in the game they said that the giants are were trying to get a Collins on kiddle matchup, and that's something. They liked. If that's true that's terrible game, planning by the giants winning Collins is not a guy you really want one on one against really anyone. But especially a tight end kiddle and the kid is like is a week after the catch to oh, definitely per per next gen stats. He was third among all receivers in yards after the catch above expectation and Mortiz Goodwin was number two Albert Wilson of Miami. Who who's out for the year was number one? So if you're talking active players right now, I was good win and kiddle. So those guys get helped out by the scheme where they get openings. And then they are crazy good. I after the catch. So so whining Collins up against Kittle if that was something the giants purposely did in the first half. And they liked that match up the who they need to go back to the drawing over there. And. Whatever information they looked at that made them think that would be a good match up. They need to really reassess. Oh, whatever that was. So it does not happen again. Yes. I don't think it would have taken much film study to see that kiddo was basically moans number one receiver even though he's a tight end. Why not double cover him? Basically constrict him the way other teams try to constrict Oto Beckham. Even though the rest of the giant secondary isn't particularly good. You should be able to at least try to make San Francisco beach with somebody other than Kittle. That's really just basic film studying game planning. Yeah. And I mean, it's it's as yeah. There should have been a little bored to get onto Kato. So he leads San Francisco with seventy-one targets the next most targeted player is peer Garson who's at forty five on his we played in started eight games. He hasn't even been like that big part of the passing game. And then it goes down to Kendrick born at thirty eight. So when no matter who the quarterback is for San Francisco a kid who is the guy they throw at and and that's just been the case all year. But then later in the game, Matt Brita. Became the go-to guy. And that was the making sure he got on Alex Ogle Trie and Ogle tree just could not cover. I in this game. I don't think that's a surprise to us. So we've talked about Alec Ogle trees why ability in coverage before this kind of finally happened on on a national stage. So I guess more people were paying attention more people now realize he struggles in coverage, but San Francisco definitely game planned to get one on one coverage with running backs and tight ends against Ogle tree, and it really paid off. Yeah. Ole tree has not been the player people thought he might have been as an athletic linebacker, all that. If the giants thought they were getting their money back or who could take away the middle of the field and cover tight ends and running backs. They did not get it in that trade. And honestly, it's kind of it definitely too bad that he is as bad in coverage as he is because it forces the team to take BJ Goodson off of the field and put a nickel linebacker in. Before Ray Ray Armstrong was injured and then released I had kind of been thinking to myself quietly that I like the combination of Armstrong and Goodson better than Ogle tree. And anyone else what really is bad about the position Ogle Trie puts the giants in a when he struggles as poorly as he did on Monday night there. There aren't many other options there, you can you can put Goodson in which the giants should probably do more of. But then you have no TAY Davis who is an undrafted rookie who's going to play. I don't you. You probably don't wanna put. I mean. We're rental Carter was was more of more of a straight up linebacker who rush the passer sometimes at Georgia, but he's working on being an edge rusher. I don't think you want to take those. Edge rush snaps away from Carter. So there's not really another option on the Russell right now. So Ogle free as much as he struggled against San Francisco. Still one of a five players who played all Seventy-three defensive snaps. The giants can't even take them off the field, and he's the guy with with the headset. So he's the defensive play caller to when when he's out there. And it's just that that has not been good for the giants. And he's he's struggled of bunch in coverage all season on actually surprise. This is the first time in opposing offense really made an effort to go at them. This was really the first time he was targeted on Baltimore plays. I'm surprised. That's the first time that's happened. Because I would think authentic would want to try to go at him more often. Just because he he does struggle one on one. And that's been something that. Went back to the Rams that was something. We could have we did know the both of us who did watch in with the Rams did know that that was a problem for him that coverage for lack of coverage as a big reason why he's no longer no longer on the Rams. You can't be paying a player as much as you pay Ola tree. If you have to try to hide him. But yeah, but there is no hiding he's he's the middle linebacker report every snap. You can't hide them. If defense is now are going to to notice that more and take advantage of that more. That's really going to be a problem because there's there's just no way around it. It's a bad side for other defenses. If they don't notice that earth. Sorry other offenses if they don't notice that. And they don't go after him. Yeah. So maybe you can play a BJ Goodson award that that wouldn't be bad. He had a good game. And I think regardless of the two winter sessions, I think that the two interceptions. He had he was in the right place at the right time. Time. He personally didn't do much on those interceptions. He had both balls just kind of bounce into his hands. But I think overall he he played pretty well outs outside of those two picks. I so I would definitely like to see him. Get get a little more time on the field. Yeah. And he had a good game against Washington before the bye week with Ogle tree out. He was on the field for almost every snap. And he didn't really have any breakdowns. He's not the rainiest guy in coverage. But I think part of the reason why he did have those two hundred sections and being in the right place at the right time is he does have a good awareness of where the play is going to go. So he can get himself to be in the right place. Yeah. He has much much better instincts. And I think something people bring up about Ogle tree is that he is really athletic, and that's true. But he's just he's. Step slow to react to these things. So that athleticism goes out the window. I he's already a step slow. He's not letting enough to recover and that is part of the problem. But we have someone like Goodson who I think reacts a little better. I he can make up for not having that athleticism because he's he's a step ahead. So that's that's something. I'd I'd maybe like to see more of going into the second half of the season of Goodson. Only played forty seven percent of the snaps against San Francisco. And that I mean, that's part of the giants are running out a lot of linebacker heavy sets. They're spread out a little more. And and they went into it too. Big nickel little more where where they had three safeties on the field. They had a bunch of plays where they played Landon Collins Curtis Riley, and they had Michael Thomas out on the field. Do played fifty three percent of the snaps with. That's definitely his highest season. Thomas played as much as any two or three games put together. And I won't say he jumped off the field. But he was at least involved in the defense, then you had one past defended. But it looked like they wanted to play a little more three safety looks which with how the linebackers point this year. I'm not totally can that they looked like in the second half. They kind of moved Collins to bore of more of a linebacker type work. They kind of they tried to get him out of one on one coverage, which which is good. And that might be that might be the way to go, especially at safety when you have Curtis Riley back there often as the single high safety and Reno which is less than I it's not worked out. Well, so maybe putting putting his another safety back there while getting Colwyn still play closer to the line that that could work out. Maybe we'll see that. With some more local Thomas, maybe Sean Chandler will play that role of little bit more. Maybe I don't know. Maybe you see grant Haley play their little more. He played paley played more. Plot corner. A he had a real nice tackle for loss on on a swing pass. He played forty two percent of the steps he had a pass defended to us. So I definitely like to see him again play play a little more. So the coverage outside of the linebackers held up. Pretty well. I think in San Francisco doesn't have the strongest wide receivers who were playing. But I think part of what allowed those linebackers get exploited and coverages there really was no pass rush year. San Francisco was kind of able to do what they wanted. Nick Mullins just kind of hung out for the most part giants when we got three quarterback hits. And both of the came on which one was from Alec Ogle Triana blitz. No, one was rental Carter one was alleviate Vernon. There was just not a consistent pass rush to rush. Whatever. Volunteer was going to be doing. That's another argument to give Colonel Carter more snaps and definitely more pass rush. Snaps. I mean, I am not going to be angry that he got that roughing the passer penalty for delivering a good tackle to Molins a split second after he released the ball. Yeah. I think part of it is that he got there is probably how the tackle happened. He kinda got his arm movements had his arm up Carter kind of got his arm around his neck a little bit, and he kind of almost like rock bottom to him to the ground. So so I think how the hit happened was probably was probably worse. But yeah, if he's getting to the quarterback, I I don't think you you have an issue with that. And he's someone who has flashed at but the flashes haven't happened quite as much as you would. Maybe like he's someone who's still learning the edge position in the rookie report. I did over the bye week just assessing the place of the rookies. He was still someone. I said. I'd like to wait and see because he's he's still needs things that need to develop. There are some people who are very optimistic about him. And if he does develop into learning to use his hands and not getting blocked at a plays as often as he does can be a good pass rusher. But I think this is the first time I think since alleviate Vernon has been back that he was not the giants best pass rusher. And I I think that was Carter of definitely I am optimistic about Carter. But that is kind of contingent on him continuing to develop and really learn how to put those physical tools of his to use. He's got that real quick first step. He's got that ridiculous length of his the agility that actually lets him drop into coverage be competent yet. He just needs to figure it out. And just keep keep developing now whether or not that happens is. Is another matter entirely, right? And I think that something at this point you have to keep him on the field and see what he does. I think that's really the only way he's going to learn. So he was probably the one bright spot on this defense. He he flashed a little more against San Francisco. Then I think he has in other games. Even though he's he's maybe been more productive yet three tackles for loss in this game. Which I mean anytime you have defensive player in the backfield that often, that's that's pretty good. Even if the pass rush and there were there were no sacks. But getting in the backfield the at that rate is good. Oh, definitely, you know, even if his snaps have to come at the expense of Korea Martin and Josh Moro fine. So be it. You know? He and Goodson are probably the giants to best linebackers right now. And they need to figure out some way to keep both of them on the field. Yeah. And those those lineup changes are maybe something we'll see going on in the second half. I don't think it's going to be doing anyone any good to keep Alec Otari on the field for one hundred percent of the snaps for the rest of the season. So maybe maybe rotating him out with a more will give Goodson some more time. It can maybe get Carter in their war often too. I think that's that's probably the best way to go about it. Because I think right now you wanted to try to develop these younger guys instead of sticking with the veterans, you just aren't playing. Well, I think that's definitely what this second half of the season has to be about. Oh, absolutely. You don't rebuild by sticking with guys who you know, what? They are and what they are is mediocre at best for rebuilding is finding the young guys on your team who can develop in be anchors be viable pieces down the road. Right. Yeah. That's all we can have for for the second half of the season. Even even with the wind here. The giants are a very well out of the playoff picture. But you know, when is nice, and it's good to to see some development in some some improvement on on places on the field. I'm not totally sure how many teams the giants would have beaten with that exact play that they had. I think luckily, it was against San Francisco as they'll see they have a game against Tampa Bay who has not been great, especially on the defensive side of the ball, especially on the defensive side of the ball. Yeah. If the giants aren't moving the ball there. I think that's another place. We can we can say they have an issue. So hopefully, they would be able to move the ball again. Tampa Bay there. So I think we can we can end it there. You can subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your podcast. And again, remember a subscribing to this feed. I get you the review show it gets you to Valentine's views shows per week. And it gets you are new college football NFL draft show. We'll have at the end of the week. Thank you to everyone who listened to that show that was actually a fairly popular show. So I'm glad you guys enjoyed that. And and we're looking forward to getting more episodes of that up, please rate and review this podcast. If you have not a we we will be back at the end of the week four that draft show and will be here on this feed with a Valentine's view shortly. So thank you guys for listening. And we'll talk to you again soon. Hello. I'm Ashleigh Carmen. I'm Caitlyn Tiffany. We're the hosts of wide you push that button verges show about all the choices technology forces us to make where back for season three talking about questions. Like, why do you do what you're doing? And why do you type in lower? He's letters that make you seem like a serial killer. Why are you on an exclusive dating app not that special? We're really seeing a new episode every Wednesday, and you can find this anywhere you typically find podcast, which is podcast Suge has podcast. 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giants San Francisco Odell Beckham Evan Ingram saquon Barkley BJ Goodson Barclay Landon Collins Barclay Colonel Carter football Manning Ogle tree Jim Twitter Alec Otari Brown
Big Blue Big Board: Paying attention to linebackers

Big Blue View

38:08 min | 2 years ago

Big Blue Big Board: Paying attention to linebackers

"The. Hello. And welcome to the big Lou big Boyd podcast. I am Dan is you to join tear by Chris flow. And this is our first official draft show of the off-season where where Schrage to the draft now in terms of the New York Giants. So they finished five eleven they will hold these six overall pick no more projections or probabilities of where they're going to pick. That's where it's going to happen. So right now six overall, so we have now in idea of where the giants are. We can start to figure out what prospects might be in that area. That also at the moment gives us some someone of where they'll be picking around in the waiter rounds, they're still contacts and things like that that are going to push that order around. But right now, we pretty much know where the giants are going to be. And just about every round. So we can start figuring out some of the prospects that are going to be in this area. So if you've been listening to us since the beginning, we've been going over pretty much position by position going over some of the top prospects or prospects of interest in most of those groups you can go back in wisened to those episodes. They're mostly evergreen. But we'll continue to talk about the prospects that we have talked about in the past as a we get now deeper into our evaluations that we don't have giants football that we need to watch. Honestly, thankfully at this point. It's probably a good time to turn the page on that. So we're going to continue talking about those prospects and all the positions of need and one of those physicians. Possibly is something we're going to talk about today to position we haven't gotten to yet which is off ball linebacker. So you ready to break these guys down, Chris? Oh, definitely. There's one thing giants fans love to talk about as linebackers or the need for linebackers. Yes. So we had our mailbag episode of last week. And we did that instead of a positional preview. And I think the number one topic that was asked was about quarterback and what they do. And the number two. I think we got a decent amount of questions about linebacker. This is a position that has continually stung the giants. Ford ever. At least recent history only about oh twenty five years or so. There have been some some good ones in that time. But it's position that the giants have not really attacked were were head quality at in. We have the old tree trade during the offseason of people without really knowing much about Ogle tree were just excited that something was done at linebacker. I'm not sure how excited those people continued to be ones alkyl tree played. But I think that's going to be another topic. Will will we'll take it easy on oaktree in this in this episode but off ball linebacker is what we're going to talk about and that is different than than edge and pass rushing linebackers. So these are just going to be guys that are typically the inside it's hype linebackers the guys who are going to be defending the run the middle of the field, the linebackers whose main responsibility is not going to be rushing the passer yet, this isn't to say they don't ever rush the passer. Event has obviously will lit softball linebackers. You know, sent him through the A or B gaps that sort of thing. But these are the guys who are. Cleaning up after defensive lineman in the run game or dropping coverage on running backs and tight ends over the middle as opposed to rushing downhill off the edge. Right. Yeah. Very different distinct responsibilities. So think of the difference in responsibility like this year between in Alec will tree and like a Renzo Carter or Kareem. Martin those are the differences Ogle tree is off. Lol linebacker, and he does still blitz having the ability to blitz from that position is definitely a plus. So it's not like, they don't rush the passer at all. But just different responsibilities on the field. And those are the guys because we already had the edge podcast where we looked over the guys who are going to be those pass rushers. So today, we're going to shift a to the off ball linebacker. Yeah. And there is definitely a. Difference in the I would say depth of this draft between edge and off ball linebacker at the edge class, at least depending on which underclassmen come out is going to be absolutely stacked. This one is going to be a little bit. It's can be shallow. And I think we're going to have to kinda look a little bit deeper for those diamonds in the rough. Yeah. This is a position that one is not valued as highly as maybe it has been in the past as the NFL has switched to more passing the dominant run stuffing middle linebacker is not really that big of a thing anymore. I we did see some go. Hi, we this year with Roque on Smith. And then there was a Tremaine Edmunds. So there are still players there who can have value at that position on we see players like Mckee. And Bobby Wagner are having dumb and performances at that position. But overall, it's still a position that is not as highly regarded and as valued as it used to be in the past definitely. And I think if you look at those players broke Smith Tremaine Edmonds, Bobby Wagner, those types of guys. If you look at them, they're all highly athletic players, they can move and they can play in space and cover a big area of the middle of the field. And they can come down field fill gaps or they can drop into pretty sizable coverage areas as great as he was a decade in change ago. Antonio Pierce probably could not play today or at least not be three down linebacker. Yeah. That's that's true. His his role DeWitt have a need to have been adjusted at some point. I think on on top of that what really is important for these aligned backers now is athletic. I think you need to be able to move quickly you need to be able to move fluidly and these bigger booking guys are I don't think that that's just not the position anymore. I think you see especially this rookie class that came in. And and the guys who were. Accessible their weight Vander h was one of the most athletic linebackers in the strap so per spark, which is just a composite score of basically all the important combine drills. He came out as more athletic than ninety seven point three percent of NFL linebackers. That's incredible. Then you look guys who also had success this year. Jerome Baker to Miami. He was the eighty fifth percentile. Fred Warner in San Francisco was the eightieth percentile. You just have these athletic type of guys and air. Now, the guys who are the prototypes at that position. Yeah. Definitely even going back a little bit Leuke cly was almost ridiculously athletic especially for a couple years ago when he was drafted. Yeah. And so we obviously don't have those testing numbers yet. But what we do. I think I've said this continually on. On these shows when we do have those athletic testing numbers, they are going to help colour evaluations that we have of these prospects. So right now where we have is what we can see on film. We have some other production numbers. That's what we're going to use them. We can see and project some of this athleticism, which I think we're going to do with with the decent amount of the guys we're going to be talking about. But then what once we get those numbers? I think that really going to help shape. Wow. We feel these prospects hole. So again, remember the evaluations. We have right now are very preliminary. And we're just kind of going over who you should be starting to look at these positions. And I that's a good spot at any of the really start to look at them. Yes. So let's get into into some of the top guys. So I think we'll start out and mention Josh Allen from Kentucky. We already talked about him on the edge episode. I think I would consider. Him more of an edge. I would use them more as an edge. I think it would be a little bit of a waste to use him of and not get his pass rush ability on L like eighty five percent of his snaps at least. So just I'm going to say we're going to mention him here because some people might talk about him more as as a linebacker, but I would use him as an edge in. I think that should be his best position going forward. Definitely. I only have him on my list of linebackers because depending on the scheme he is drafted into if he winds up as say a strong side linebacker in Carolina. He could play that off bowl linebacker where he's going downhill and rushing on occasion. But also dropping into space covering he could do that. He could probably excel at that. For the giants. He isn't edge all day long. On and. I won't say he'll be Khalil Mack. But he could be down close. Yeah. He's just he's really good passer. I think maybe if you if you're thinking of the scenarios he can be put in I like Hassan Rettig in at Arizona under James Becher would be maybe like worst case scenario of how often he was rush the passer. I think in vettix rookie year. I think it was about like I dunno fifty five fifty percent of the time. He was rushing. The passenger other times us dropping back in playing a more of a standard lundback. And he in his senior year was he was more of a pass rusher though, he had played linebacker yet safety. So there there is especially for the giants some history of of the coordinator working in someone like that. I think it's slightly similar to Lawrence Carter too. But let's move on and get into guys. We haven't talked about yet. And let's go with someone who is probably going to fit. That really athletic type of of mold, and he someone a lot of people have thought very highly of and that is neck Wilson of Alabama Alabama defense. He's he's going to have hype personally watching him. I think his hype is a little bit more projection right now than what he has put on tape. He kinda reminds me of Alec old tree especially in the first half of the season in that you occasionally see flashes of instinct where he knows before the ball snapped where he is going. He has a plan and when he pulls the trigger he is. Explosively athletic. He comes down in just a blink. And he can move around the field almost like he's ice skating. But then he has. I would say almost too many plays where he has to wait and see what's happening before he pulls the trigger end. Commits yet. He seems like he's he's going to be an interesting projection because he is he is in the middle of that Alabama defense. But there's so many good players around him when you look at his production. I it's it's going to be a tough balancing active figure out what he was responsible for and a some things that he may be left on the field. If that's Infrom other Alabama players really identifying to the point is I because you look at his numbers Hughley had four and a half tackles for loss a one sack three and a half run stuff. Those are not great numbers for a linebacker less than half of his total tackles were so. Oh, tackles, he's the guy. We're going to talk about today who was below fifty percent. And then you look at some of his his broken tackle numbers. They weren't great. So yet a broken tackle on a fourteen point three percent of his civil tackle attempts. And that is is not a good number that again is going to be the worst of the guys we have talked about today. So in terms of production. It's not totally there. But in terms of his build his athleticism, obviously playing the amount he has on the Alabama defense is going to be a plus for some people because there's you hope there's that football intelligence that's going to be needed for that middle of the field type player. But I think when you look at him it's going to definitely be a projection of his traits going against the production. He actually had on the field. Yeah. And there will be watching the tape. There will be. That kind of process of separating his play from yet. When Williams and Rick Juan Davis being monsters in front of him. Deonte Thomson being a really good free safety behind him said just he an athletic player on a defense just surrounded by great players. Or is he a guy with his era pointing up who will grow into his potential at the NFL level. Right. That's going to be a big conversation. I think surrounding him. And if you want to talk about some I think allegory might be a decent cop of someone who is very athletic Ken show as some of that range. But that isn't a ways as productive as that at lettuces them would suggest and he someone who still has an another game laughed V has a big game in the national championship game against Clemson. In. It's probably it probably shouldn't. But probably will change the entire conversation. I mean, he's already rated when you look at a lot of places one of if not the top off ball, I'm backer in this class. So he someone who's definitely going to bring up a lot of conversations. But I think if we move on someone else who has been brought up as one of the most highly talked about a linebackers indiscreet probably for for a while is Devon white of LSU yet. He's fun to watch. And he's he's a little bit more in that kind of classic inside middle linebacker, Jon Beason type mold. He's just solid. Head to toe just solidly Bill he's athletic enough. He's not if of the guys we mention today, he'll probably be the worst athlete, but that's not saying, he's a bad athlete of them. He probably uses his hands the best he can play off of his blocks. He can stack and shed even offense lineman, and he can really navigate the trash run. The minor scrimmage, really. Well. Personally, I like his instincts. He rarely takes a an incorrect. First step, which is something. I like I like to see and. He complained coverage him. Yeah. He he seems to be someone who is consistently around the ball. And if you're looking for awful linebacker. That's that's what you want. So his his solo attack. Oh percentage is we a tick above a fifty percent. I just had a ding on Wilton for being under fifty percent whites only at about fifty but the white has like twice as many tackles as as Wilson does and the more than double the civil tackles. So white had ninety two and a half tackles when you break that down sixty two so and sixty one assists, and though sixty one count as half tackles in the total tackle numbers. But he's a guy who's just around the ball. He's making tackles all the time twelve tackles for loss. Three sacks twenty and a half run stuff's. So he's a guy that's going to be around the line of scrimmage in the run game. Also, six pass breakups three four fumbles. Those are just the excellent numbers when you look for someone who you want to be making plays this guide. Absolutely a playmaker. Eight broken tackles per sports info solutions, but when you put it in the total of the amount of tackle attempts at that's not near as bad of broken tackle percentage about eleven point four that is not that. I think the wom- concern you might have is in coverage. So per sports info solutions in twenty eighteen he had faced twenty three targets and as we look at these targets, especially for linebackers. I it's going to be a small sample size of some of these numbers are very volatile depending on what happened. But yet twenty three targets yet is sixty nine point six percent completion percentage allowed and seven point four yards per target allowed. So that is great that is going to be the worst of those linebackers. We talked about, but he's around the ball so often that I think you can take. Take some of those lapses in coverage you can live with them. Because so many other plays are being made. Now does SIS happen to have context. Those targets because in at least the games. I watched LSU wasn't shy about matching him up in the slot. Which for a guy six foot six one around to forty is not an ideal matchup toe. I can pull those up for you. Now. I he was pretty good in slot. It looks like only six targets were charted against him in the slot to completions dropped interception on one of them that that counts as a past fended the so thirty three point three percent completion percentage in five point would yards per target there when he was in the slot. So it was like he was a slightly better in the slot. Then when he was just targeted overall. Okay. That's that's actually interesting to see. Okay. Then. I was not expecting those numbers. Yes. So I mean, again only only six targets, you know, still only two completions. But that's certainly not that new like he was still able to make plays on the ball. And again, he had six pass breakups in on these targets. So when you're looking at the completion percentage that that is high, but I think again, especially linebacker targeting sets can be quite volatile. So that doesn't necessarily mean he's terrible in coverage or can't improve. But that just shows. I if there's one piece that needs to be worked on in his game. It's probably that. Yeah. I would agree with that. So let's move to another Devon who is also being talked about as one of the top guys in this class. And that is Devon Bush of Michigan. Yeah. I think his draft stock is going to be it could vary really widely. I've seen people have him all the way down in like a fringe top ten linebacker personally. I enjoyed watching him. He's. I know I have down as he's built like a fire hydrant with dreads. He's listed at five eleven to twenty five. He might be five ten I've, I'm not sure he's got he doesn't sound big. But on the you look at him on the field. He is just dick. He kinda reminds me of Chris Borland when he was coming out of Wisconsin. And then if you go back a couple years Greg Jones at a. Michigan state who I still say it was a mistake to cut him before actually giving him a run at his natural strong side position. But that's that has nothing to do with the show. He is Bush. I mean is he's got pop in his game even taking on blockers. He tries to jolt them backwards. And he's dude he's always going to win the leverage battle in when he hits he hits. He is of these guys. He's definitely the most aggressive guy. I saw occasionally he would be out of control let himself get run out of plays occasionally may be run past his gap responsibility. If you in pursuit on the outside, but usually he would be coming from the complete other side of the field. It really high energy player. And he moves a lot better than I think you would expect from a guy built like him. He moves more like an athletic running back than a stocky linebacker yet. And as those are good things to see he's the linebacker in this group who had the highest share of Silla tackles, two had fifty eight point five total tackles, forty of those were. So again, the the assisted tackles count is half. So sixty point six percent of his tackles were so that's that's a great number. So he was the first one to the ball, and he was bringing that guy down nine tackles for loss five cents. So he he can be a pass rusher. Nine run. Stuff's six pass breakups. He's a guy again around the ball all the time only five broken tackles eleven point one per se. Sent broken tackle rate that that is not bad. That's the second best of this group. And then in pass coverage per sports solutions. It's twenty targets. He'll be allowed forty five percent completion percentage, but a six point two yards per target, which is the second highest of this group. So he wasn't allowing a lot of balls and be completed, but some of them I did have some big gains when they were. So again that that is that is a bit of a give and take there. But yeah, he's someone who he's going to be on the smaller side of these. But when you can have when you have his his size, but still his athleticism in his aggressiveness on the field. I think all of those were real well together. Oh, yeah. He might be a guy who is good to pair with Alica will tree maybe handcuffed to be Goodson his height if not as size could be an issue in the NFL just. Because he could get swallowed up by big tight ends or big lineman. But you know, he's pretty much always going to win the leverage battle. And he is just like when he hits he's like a coiled spring and his play strength is more than I think you would expect just looking at his measurable ze. Yeah. And that will be something we see as these workouts happened is right now, you watch the film a lot of these guys that we're talking about right now our our juniors. So most of these guys are aren't going to be on the senior bowl circuit where we see some of these guys get these one on one attempts, and and see them a little more through the off-season. So we're really not going to see most of these guys until the combine. But yet, he's he's someone who has been talked up a lot and through is tape and his numbers, and probably is workout. These is going to be someone who's going to continue to be. Of interest to a lot of teams. Let's talk about the the one guy who we are going to talk about who is a senior in. That's a Bobby oak. Ricky of Stanford. Both he and our next hour going to be a little bit more or a lot more in that new age. Kind of my backer who is a response to the spread offense. These guys that kind of lure the line between linebacker and strong safety. And he is tall. I think he's. I I've seen him listed about six three that looks about right? He's really athlete. He moved more like a big defensive back than a small linemen. If that makes sense big range he can cover a lot of field. He doesn't look lost. If he is in like a dime package, and he's covering the entire middle. He he can do that. He is fast to come down hill. And. He can sift through the trash the line of scrimmage, really, well, but he does kind of rely on his athleticism to beat as to be blocks. And that can get him in trouble. I he was able to make a decent amount of soa tackles, which again in something you like to see fifty five point six percent of his seventy two tackles to seven a half tackles for loss. Three and a half sacks twelve and a half run. Stuff's five pass breakups to force fumbles. All of those decent numbers to see across the board. Those are around where these other guys are the run. Stuff's is second on this list. Only two Devon white. Who was just ridiculous in run? Stuff's still not a bad tackler in April tackles, that's a twelve point seven percent. So broken tackle rate. That's around. Okay. That's not terrible. He was used the most income bridge. A thirty three targets for sports info solutions, a fifty one point five per se. Percent completion percentage and a five point three three yards per target. He is also someone because he is the only senior we're talking about. I he someone who is going to be at the senior bowl at the end of January. So he gets possibly that bump of being able to look at him with NFL coaching and around some of these other top prospects. So that's something. We'll talk about when the time comes. But he's someone I'm going to be interested in seeing how he performs in that setting. Oh, definitely that's that is going to be interesting. And personally, I'm looking forward to the senior bowl this year that looks to have one of the better rosters. It's had a while and oak, Ricky, his an intriguing Guida watch. He and our next guy both kind of remind of dairies Leonard a little bit just as players who are longer athletic who don't really resemble the classic NFL linebacker. But in today's NFL are going to be productive. Yeah. Absolutely. So let's go to our next guy. Then because he's not a name that I think has been brought up often as one of the top linebackers in the group. I think when we have I was going over a list of some of the top prospects. We really saw him on one list as even in. I think even in like the the top ten one on as five, but he might be. I think probably my personal favorite of maybe wouldn't rate him as linebacker one. But might be my favorite again as junior. Yet to commit to the draft. So that's also part of it. But that is Troy die of Oregon. Yeah. He's one out of all them who really kind of trips. My Darius Leonard. Radar because he's he's the guy. Nobody has really been talking about. And if you were looking at linebackers from kind of a classic standpoint, he's not gonna be terribly impressive. He's not going to be coming up stacking shedding guards and blowing up running backs. But he is a guy who is I think. Well, tailored for the modern NFL. He's got the size to cover tight ends. He's six three about two thirty to thirty five. He's got good length. He knows how to use that length, and that's actually how he plays off of blocks. He's very good at keeping himself clean keeping blockers away from his chest plate and presenting a really small strike zone to lineman. So he can play off of blocks that he probably shouldn't be able to based on his weight and play strength, but he gives himself room, and he's really quick thing. Ben solich of draft network. His very first note on him, which by the way, they have him rated as their fourteenth linebacker, but his very first note on him is he is stupid athletic and that fits I am in on stupid Atlantic. Give me stupid athletics. And I will. Figure out what to do with agai. But also incredibly productive. It's not someone who is athletic and has no idea what to do with it, which is great ninety total tackles fifty seven point seven percent of those were solo. That's good. He's he's getting to the ball. And he is the guy getting the ball eight tackles for loss. Two sacks nine run. Stuff's one interception. Seven pass breakups. Those are all great numbers. He's someone who because of his size his lane. He can play in coverage. He was the best tackler of this group. Fibro tackles a seven point two five broken tackle percentage per sports solutions numbers and twenty one targets of fifty one point four percent. Completion percentage allowed three point six two yards per target that that's excellent. So you can be allow over half the passes to be completed a, but if you're. Only giving up three and a half yards per pass. That is absolutely excellent working coverage. Oh, definitely and his tackling. I would say he isn't like Devin Bush or Devon white where he. Tries to deliver hit some blow guys up. He is a secure tackler. Which is why his broken tackles are low. He will try to square up wrap up, and okay, sometimes it's a bit of a drag down tackle. But he gets down. Yeah. And as those as though Sillo tackle numbers say he's the first one to the ball that civil percentage of fifty seven point seven is the second highest that after a Devin Bush and his total tackled numbers the second highest after Devon white. So he someone who is around the ball that that is good to see again. Obviously, you don't always want to look at tackle numbers and not always or high tackle numbers. Good. 'cause that sometimes means the ball is coming at you. Sometimes that's purposely a, but the point when you can see there is the production. When does tackle numbers are high? Then that is. At sign of a quality player when you have those ninety tackles only five broken tackles. That's under ten percent broken tackle rate, which is incredible. That that's a sign of a very good tackler at in those coverage numbers that is that's the type of rangy athletic linebacker. I think it's perfect for the modern NFL. Oh, yeah. And he is an instinctive guy he he's one of those guys who takes that accurate. First step. He doesn't have a lot of his attention or hemming in hauling before. He. Gets in motion and hit. He's a guy who's motor runs white hot. He is always in pursuit, and he will pursue through the echo of the whistle. I believe against Washington state. He forced a fumble where he was chasing a guy for about fifteen yards. His tackle almost got broken. But laying on the ground. He swatted the ball out of the ball carriers hands to force the fumble. I mean, that's that's exactly what you what you wanna hear. That is I that's fun stuff. So I I hope that he is someone who is going to continue to impress through the evaluation process. He's someone that I am in the preliminary evaluations would be high on now. So that he someone I'm going to keep an eye on as as we go forward. And e if he doesn't rise up it he might be in a position where where where the giants could be thinking about possibly taking linebacker. I mean, I doubt they do it at at six overall unless Alan right? But again, that's that's an edge rusher. That's not quite awful linebacker to replace or put next to Ogle Trie as we look at that. Kind of what the position is right now. That's where all these prospects in at this position stand. I mean, there's people we haven't talked about. But people we will talk about as we continue to go forward because it still only the beginning of January. We have a lot of frigging time before this raft. And we have we have been talking about the draft for a while that is. That's just kinda how the giants season when we were kind of forced to early on. So those are some of the prospects working at now, we will we will continue bring this down. We have I think two positions left's in our preliminary positional breakdown. So we will get to those later in terms of the rest of our show is will be back sometime next week with with something. Exactly what I'm not sure. But we'll let you know for this episode will end it there. You can subscribe to this podcast wherever you find your podcast. Please leave a rating and review that helps us out greatly fo all our work at big review dot com. You can follow view on Twitter at big view, though, big view on Instagram. I know I've been saying this in having totally followed through, but we're going to do more fun stuff with Instagram during the off season while there's not as much crazy season content to do. We'll figure out some some more fun things to do. And that is at big underscore. Blu. Underscore view me on Twitter at damn Zuta though, Chris on Twitter at raptor MK. I thank you guys for listening, and we will talk to you again. Hey, I'm ill dash. And I'm the host of a new show called function from the box media podcast network and glitch this season. We're talking with experts about wire voting machines are so bad and how that might hurt our elections. We'll also talk with an animator to find out how popular dances from the real world end up in video games. And we're going to tackle the biggest question attack. Why do so many celebrities use screen shots from that apple notes app to make their public apologies when they screw up? You can find new episodes of function every Monday on apple podcasts, Stitcher or wherever you listen to podcasts and thanks to Microsoft, Azure, for sponsoring function.

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Bonus: SB Nation NFL Writers Mock Draft, Pick 6 breakdown

Big Blue View

22:03 min | 2 years ago

Bonus: SB Nation NFL Writers Mock Draft, Pick 6 breakdown

"Uh-huh. Welcome to a special edition of the big big Boyd Bod cast. Dan, is you to join tear by Chris Chris how you doing? Pretty good. All right. Good to hear. So what we are doing today is we are going to react and break down the giants pick in the Espy nation NFL writers mock draft. So this is now the thirteenth year that as a nation has done this. They have all of the head writers for their team blogs and make picks for a mock draft. And we're going to talk about who was picked by Ed Valentine made the pick for the New York Giants. So that's just our topic here today. So before we get into who the giants picked we're going to just give you an update on who was picked you'll be able to read these on Espy nation dot com. All of these picks will be up by the time. It's gets posted. So we'll go from pick number one that a lot of surprises here. Arizona selected Tyler Murray. I overall San Francisco took edge Nick Bosa from Ohio State. Number two, the jets at number three to Josh Allen edge from Kentucky Oakland, number four to Quin Williams interior defensive line from Alabama. The big surprise. I guess here is Tampa Bay at five took Ed all of her interior defensive line from Houston. So that left the giants with options all be quarterback a couple other options at edge rusher. But Ed went with Devon white the linebacker from LSU, a Chris what are your initial thoughts about this pick? Honestly, I if that came to pass I would be surprised will get into why based on who else is on the board. But also, I'm not sure if I would be happy or upset with this pick white is different way is almost. Two two different prospects at the same time for me. It's an interesting take. I think is the best way to put it. I think just from a positional values standpoint. And of course, we know the general manager of the New York Giants does not really care about that. So I believe it. He officially classified it as a crock several cross we've found out. Yep. So when you looking at that taking a running back second overall last year and then Liden backer. An awful again off ball linebacker six overall this year, not the greatest look. But there's something about Devon white. I think he's the clear consensus number one off ball linebacker. He is super athletic graded, second in spark the ninety third percentile. And again that is a composite athleticism metric so ninety third percentile among all NFL off ball. Packers. So he has that going for them. It has been very good against the run. I think his coverage Ed can be hit or miss. That is probably what would concern me the most about this pick is whether the coverage can hold up to to be worthy of taking a linebacker like that this high in this era of the NFL per sports food solutions he had seven point three yards per target allowed in twenty eighteen. A his pro football focus coverage grades are much better than that the seven point three yards. Target is one of the worst of bunged this linebacker class. So that's concerning. But I think he got it try to figure out which one kind of takes precedent there. And if you feel better about his coverage, I then it makes you feel probably a little better about this pick, especially if you're going to stick him next to Alex. Altri if both of them are struggling in coverage. It doesn't really matter how athletic they are running sideline to sideline if they're not going to cover. Well, then that probably doesn't really help too much. Yeah. And this is where I say that white is almost like two different prospects to me. As an athlete. He is. He's a fantastic athlete. He has legitimately elite athletic profile in my scouting report of him. Which is also going to be published or depending on when this goes up has been published today. I say that white is almost like a defensive coordinator entered a cheek code before going into a create a player. He's maybe an inch or two shorter than ideal. But he's got idea way. He's got ridiculous speed. He's got loose enough hips to cover a LSU used him covering slots of couple times, and he can move well enough, and he is just explosively powerful. When he when he comes at a offense player directly the problem for me. Is that getting him on the field his mental game lags in some cases, far behind his physical game? He is very easily baited and manipulated by offenses. He can be moved well away from the play by play action. He bites hard and fast on play action. He will chase counters to the other side of the field. Only having to try to sift back through the wash to get back to the running back. He. Does have a tendency to lose track of the ball on reductions or in our peo- situations. So all of that gives me pause echoes. Those are things that are going to have to be coached up. And if you're taking a awful linebacker this high he has to be Leuke cly tier in terms of just impact on defense. And I don't know that Devon white. Even though he has the athlete profiled that kind of player. I don't know if he will ever have the mental beam to be that kind of player yet. That's the biggest question on whiten would be my hang-up of taking an awful linebacker white. Specifically, this high is when when I was watching him he kind of felt like a lot of similarities to Alec altri. But he's I think a little more instinctive especially when he sits in zone. He's not going. To sit in the zone until someone passes by him any realize? Yes, the culprit is going to be better in that area. Think he still struggles in ban coverage a little bit. I think he can be a little bored. Instinctive making his first read football is study hall Bill. Conley of Espy nation had him with a twenty point five run stuff. So he is very good playing in front of him against the run. He also had six pass breakup of which is good three-fourths bubbles. So I think there are similarities to Alec with a little better instinct is that enough to be a good player that maybe if those instincts get the possibly a little better that could be fairly good player. But depending on just how how you view all of that coming together and putting that in the middle of the defense if that's really going to to help and have the value of being a pick this. Hi, I'm one of the other things we talked about if you just listen to. Are less episode from Friday when we did the positional draft. And we pick the positions when we talked about the possibility of the giants taking off while linebacker. We did mention white could be an option as well as Devon Bush at possibly seventeen and some of the rationale there was those two are so far ahead of all the other prospects in this class because there's a big gap between them and the rest of the positional group that maybe that also bumps them up because while off a linebacker of might not be huge in positional value overall in a defense in this draft class. You can maybe make the argument because of these two are so much better than everyone else. But you're also, then if you go there, you're leaving edge relieving the possibility of quarterback, which you know, who knows where the giants actually fall on that right now. So I think there's a lot of ques-. On white. I think also similar to Alec altri. He obliges quite often. He can create pressure. It's not a ways affective pressure. Ogle tree is something. I've said a lot about him is he can easily be picked up by running backs and players Voller than him. I don't think white quite has that problem. So purpose, we're suppose Lucians he blitz. Twenty two point seven percent of the time Neta pressure rate of twenty four point eight percent, which is pretty good for that high of blitz rate. So that would be something that could be with especially with James Becher who does like to blitz when he has the personnel to do. So I think putting him next to Trie. I think a lot of their skill sets kind of overlap. So I don't know if that makes it easier to move on from Ogle tree or if you just want those two players playing at the same time. So it does bring up a decent amount of questions of how the giants would continue to Bill. The Rosser from there. Definitely. I think the they probably won't because Ogle Trie is he's the defensive captain at this point. And he is their signal caller. And he plays every snap. He is healthy for drafting Devon white would allow them to make him a June first cut, they probably would not do that. So then you do have to figure out. How do you get these two guys with very similar games to coexist within the defense who which one are you taking off in nickel situations are you leading both of them on and taking off a defensive lineman. And then if you can't get the mental side of whites game to mature, you have who's place beat does not match their physical speed. And we saw last year how offenses can freeze that type of player even though white is more reactive than Ogle tree. Is that? It isn't always a he doesn't always make the correct reaction that can be exploited. And then moving on the defense has so many holes, you know, what are the giants going to do with Ed rush? Are are they going to be depending on these two linebackers two for double a gap blitzes every snap. So that it does bring up some domino questions. And this is part of the problem of being a strict best player available type of drafter, which get them in had said he is. I don't think a lot of people really are because need does go into so many of these evaluations. I would not be surprised if Devon white is ranked six on their board. And if the board falls this way and all over goes before. But I think as much as I've read an have looked into things it does seem that Devon white is almost a lock to go fifth to Tampa Bay. So Tampa taking all over Devon white Whidbey surprise. And that was I think the biggest prize of those top five picks that we saw. But I wouldn't be surprised if Devon white is this high on the giants board, and if they would be tempted to make this pick. I think the question is then how? Ow yet. How you continue to build a defense. When the that is the player, you've value the most so you have to athletic linebackers. You're still struggling coverage. That's not great. You still don't have great corners. Now, you're still weak on the edge. You can maybe hope someone is still there at seventeen year still hoping your safeties workout you still need to build depth along the interior defensive line. So it does continue to just raise questions and how the defense gets built if that is who they have highest on their board. And this is the way the board false. Yeah. Definitely. And just personally for me. I in. Studying white. Remark before we started recording. I I watched a full six games of his I watched starting with LSU's bowl game against Miami. Last year are in two thousand eighteen so. About a little over a year ago. I watched his gaming ole miss, Wisden attack, allburn, Alabama and Georgia. I am not sure I would rank white high enough to go over some of the other prospects. They're still on the board is just the athletically. Sure. And he does show really exciting flashes. But it's just the the mental aspect to me is it's concerning especially if it can't be developed. Yeah. I think these are all very valid questions. Glitz as we look at this. Let's maybe look at who was passed up to make this pick. You have all the addresses you Brian burns Montas wet day. Then you have the quarterbacks you have Dwayne Hoskins still on the board. You have the other quarterbacks that probably should be in. Play until later. Is there someone you would prefer at this option? I would say probably one of the edge rushers. I would assume I yeah, it would pretty much be a coin flip for me between Brian burns and Montas sweat. If the giants felt that Dwayne Haskins has at least starter upside if not franchise upside he almost has to be the pick therefore for me. Just sorry. Dave positional value is not a crock you need a quarterback. And the giants do not have a plan for quarterback after this year. They might not even have a plan for quarterback this year, if you'll I manning turns into Brock Osweiler without Dilma throw to but also the edge guys edges probably the most important position on the defense because they're the guys who directly affect the opposing quarterback. In addition to defending the run the giants are. Pretty good against the run up the middle BJ. Goodson is a really good run defending linebacker. The Dow Tomlinson and BJ hill who are stout defensive tackles interior defensive lineman. But off the edge has been where they've really struggled offending the run. And right now they're pass. Rush off the edge is almost non-existent in there hoping for development from Warren's oh Carter, and they're hoping that Merce golden can return to what was basically his the only year of real production. He's had in his entire football career which was two years ago with an ACL in between they need an rusher. They need multiple treasures. Yeah. That's the thing. And add say, that's probably the most likely place the go at six of the we'll say if Quinton Williams or possibly Ed Oliver. I the more I have really looked into at all of her and thinking about it. I think he's absolutely worth it six over all. And he's probably someone Gettleman would like better as well. So I think if one of those who were on the board that probably the pick. Although I I would think edge is the next most likely. And and probably sweat over burns. Although I would probably personally have it the other way around. I like Brian burns quite a bit. I still do like sweat. I just like burns a little more. But I think as this draft falls, I think maybe since none of those guys have been taken. You wonder if one of them is going to be available at seventeen or if in just one of the another edge rusher worthy of that seventeenth pick is going to be there. And we'll have to see as of this recording of we do not know what the rest of the NFL writers did it between pick six and seventeen. So a we're going to be back when that pick does happen that pick will then be again put on Espy nation. It'll be on big review. We'll be back to break down whatever pick. That is. We don't know. I would assume probably we in towards edged there because you almost have to at this point. And again, that's part of drafting best player available here. And that's that was part of. Ed's reasoning for this pick. What he said was. I just feel like the position doesn't matter. The giants need point makers all over the defense thought white was the best one left. So again, I I could see the giants believing that I think that starts to force your hand allayed or in the draft, and that could make it a little bored difficult down the line. And I think that's just kind of how this pick starts putting the draft in that motion. Yeah. And personally, I. I would go for an address her at six and look at Devin Bush at seventeen who I actually really like I think he does work well with Ogle tree because he is a little bit undersized. He's Gooden coverage. He's a good lizard. He's got that just frenetic style of play that I love seeing a linebacker or I don't actually think that been recur out of Washington or Blake Cashman out of Minnesota. Are that far behind the two Devon's I don't think there is a huge gap there. Those guys are both very instinctive and tested out to be much more athletic than really a lot of people expected from them. So I would actually be fine with one of those guys on the second draft. But the pick has made the dies cast will just have to see how things shake out at least in doubt things. Hypothetically shakeout you that is the case civil. That is how we feel about this pick of please check out the rest of the picks on espionage in the giants are going to be on big view, all of this will be going on throughout the week bitter. You check or work at a big review. We will be back with our regularly scheduled podcast during the week, and we'll have his normal show as a bonus show to break down and be the audio portion of this special project that nation does every year. So thank you guys for listening. You can find podcast wherever you get your podcast is written view. If you have not follow were big. We've you dot com. Ca fall big with you on Twitter at big view can follow be view on Instagram at big underscored, blue underscore view. Follow me on Twitter at damp, Zuta befall, Chris on Twitter at raptor K. I think he has listening, and we will talk to you again. Mama's Spencer hall by name is Jason Kerr. My name is Ryan nanny combined. We form the show. Full stride. I keep telling you novel. This forecast is technically college football podcast. But it's also a show about care disaster regional grocery stores. We have Tennessee Batman homeowners associations bears in video games. Pittsburgh. Batman, the hell of being trapped into grew test unreliable legal advice. I mean, there's also some actual football discussion about coaches, having used contracts or coaches making terrible decisions or coaches, saying really stupid things or the NC double A's saying released. Yeah, there's lots of stupid things in this big dumb, beautiful sport like time Arkansas decided to use a captured feral hog as a mascot, and it escaped and it wound up killing seven rattlesnakes pig and a Coyote, sometimes we talk about okay village it with if you wanna take college football exactly as seriously as it deserves taken come find us on apple podcasts Spotify or wherever else you listen to podcasts like this one full cast. It's not. Neutron on less. It is too. Hello. It's me Ashleigh Carmen. 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Big Blue reView: Defensive positional breakdown and look ahead

Big Blue View

48:58 min | 2 years ago

Big Blue reView: Defensive positional breakdown and look ahead

"Hello and welcome to the big. We review podcast. I am Dan Zuta. Join tear by Chris flung? And we are coming to you with part two of our giants basically season review the beginning of the week. We took a look at the giants offense. We went position by position. Just kind of broke down. What happened at each position? What we can maybe work for going forward. So right now, we're going to do that and flip sides and do that for the defensive side of the ball. We're going to go position by position breakdown. Couple players. What was good? What was bad? And because this is the defense in two thousand eighteen o of it was bad. But we are going to look forward at the end. And just see what the giants can do to improve. So you you ready to break this down, Chris? Yep. We might as Wade right in. All right. Let's see. So before we get into the positions, Stu quick overall view of the defense, which again, not great. So the defense was twenty six in Devia way during the twenty eighteen and they were twenty six against the past twentieth. Against the run. They were twenty six in yards for Dr and twenty seventh in points per drive. So not really where you would like a defensive unit to be. So I think the first we can just kinda talk about maybe this scheme because I think a lot of this started to come from Dave gentleman's of postseason press conference where he seemed to put like almost all of the blame on the defense, which I don't think is totally fair. The defense was bad. But I think a lot of that was kind of his doing. There was just not the talent on the defensive side of the ball that there was on the offensive side of the ball the author. Pence was a bad just because the scheme and there will say the quarterback play. I will say that in just kind of the idea of how was built but on defense. It was just there were not the players there to succeed at what they needed to do. No, I it was pretty much clear from his soon as the draft ended the twenty eighteen draft that the giants just weren't going to have the guys to get after opposing quarterbacks, and and their own cornerback death was going to be an issue. And that was even before they traded ally. Apple in the middle of the season. There were some pretty glaring holes on the roster, and it really didn't get any better. They really didn't find any answers during the season. They if anything the holes just got bigger. Yeah. That's certainly true. And yet there's there weren't a lot of answers. And I think the giants went into a lot of places with a quantity over quality strategy kind of hoping maybe quality would find its way out of there. But it really didn't. They did that at cornerback in safety, especially and it didn't work. So let's let's just go to the physicians and break down some of these players. I think one place where they did have good players, but a one place where a lot of people were upset with the production. And that was a in the pass rush specifically off the edge najar had Vivier Vernon. But he was. Hurt the beginning of the season when he came back and took him a little bit to get going. But when he got going he was actually good and a lot of people are going to talk about the the sack numbers and the giants were among the worst in the league getting sacks. They had thirty sacks all season which was tied for the second fewest in the week. But also tied for the second fewest in the league was New England Patriots who were in the Super Bowl. So there are ways around that. And both of those teams were good at generating pressure. I have a post of that up on big view. If you want to read it, I don't want to go through the whole thing right now. So just so we can get through this book teams were very good at creating pressure. Just sometimes the sax weren't there. But pressure is a good thing to get. And that's what the pass rush can do. They can we do so much getting pressure. And if a team is getting rid of the ball quickly and just there's so many other places in offense can control whether pressure turns into. Saks probably more than the defense can control that. So the giants got pressure. It just didn't always end in taking the quarterback down and alleviate Vernon is you know, basically, the embodiment of that. He was great creating pressure is just didn't always come into sex. Although in the last few games of the season, though, sack started coming because he was consistently in the backfield nexgen stash just tweets out the other day since week twelve and this was including the playoffs QB precious per game alleviate Vernon was number one. That's that was a head of coil. Math those a head of trae flowers. I was head of Aaron Donald. So alleviate Vernon was a guy who was getting to the passer, very often. And that is something he should be commended for and not Renault for because those Saxton come. Yeah. Part of that has been because of the giants coverage. They just haven't had the ability to keep the ball in the quarterbacks hands disrupt those quick routes so quarterbacks could get the ball out before Vernon could get there. Another part. I think is that he pretty much was their pass rush except for BJ hill who really started to come on towards the end of the season and get a more consistent push his own, but Vernon has pretty much always been a guy who creates pressure, but he needs. Either someone to keep a quarterback from running away from him or someone to create pressure on the other side. So either he or the other guy will be able to convert he was at his absolute best when JP was in New York, and before he had his sports hernia, and he was coming on the two of them just fed off of each other. And personally, I think that's what Vernon needs again. He needs a wingman. Yen the giants that was one place where the giants took that the quantity over quality shot. The at that secondary position. I mean, they had the third round pick in Lorenzo Carter. He improved a little bit. I still want to see a lot more development from him as a pass rusher. Some of that happened in the second half of the year. But he still a very raw pass rusher. They had corre- Martin who was another guy who create. The pressure that didn't always turn into Saks Connor borrow in was supposed to be a veteran a free agent that help their he did a little bit. But he is already not going to be returning to the giants announced that this week. And so there were just a number of of attempts at secondary option, but no one really stood out to help. And that was I think the biggest problem rather than Vernon who gets a lot of the blame because he's the highly paid guy, but he did his job. He was getting to the quarterback. So yeah, I think when we look at this the getting that depth there and getting maybe a better comment in the pass rush is something that's going to help that entire unit going forward. Absolutely. And I think this is a pretty good time before we get way ahead of ourselves and start talking about how they could improve to go to good of the middle of the defense and the interior defensive line, which per. Personally, I think is probably their best best and strongest unit. Yeah. They if if you want some hope this is probably where you wanna look, especially when you wanna look at the young players. I mean, you started this season with Damon Harrison and Dalvand Thomason BJ HALE in a rotation. What's Harrison got traded that opened up what more playing time for Jay hill? And that was great. He was the breakout sore of this rookie class. Really? He was taken in the third round. He was their second third round pick after rental Corta yet much better rookie season, then Carter did. And when you're looking for someone who can have a pass rush from the interior that was hill. He was second on the team in sacks with a five and a half. I he was four quarterback hits with eight imports infiltrations he was eleventh among ninety three defensive tackles without lease a hundred pass rushes in sacree and eleventh in pressure rate. And then if you move that cut off to three hundred pass naps. That's twenty nine defensive tackles qualify hill was seventh in both sacree and pressure rate. And he's up there with some of the guys you think of in terms of getting of pressure from the interior. So Nubia was good delve and Thomas and turned into the run stuffer that not quite Damon. Harris, it was because no one's really the upper Damon Harrison was Damon Harrison, right, exactly. But he gave you enough in that pass rush where these two guys are are to that can definitely be the middle of your defensive line. For awhile. Definitely the problem layer going forward is that the giants just do not retain defensive tackles. Or at least historically they haven't. And while much of that was with Jerry reset general manager a lot of it was also with Dave Gettleman, basically being the director of pro personnel. So it will be interesting to see if Tomlinson gets a second contract for the giants. He's going into his third year. So they still have two more years with him. Hopefully, they'll keep him around because he is about as good a non snacks nose tackle as you could ask for. And he and he'll do work well together that there's also the third guy and their which they claimed Mario Edwards junior on waivers after final cutdown. He was released by the Oakland Raiders in. I thought he turned into a really nice pickup. Yes, he did. And he got to the part where I think the giants were comfortable rotating him in. And that's something. The giants said they wanted to do along the defensive line is have a deep rotation not have to play these defensive players along the line. You ninety percent of the snaps like Vernon and Jason Pierre Paul in were doing over the past couple years. So when you have guys who can rotate in you, keep guys like Damon Harrison BJ hill fresh that is absolutely something that helps everybody. Out personally, I thought Edwards actually probably could've used a bigger share of the snap count. Because he usually flashed. The didn't get I think as much production as they might have hoped. But when he was on the field. He was usually around the ball. Yes. He got about what he one percent of the defensive snaps. Carry win was in there at thirty six percent. And Josh Mora was there like twenty five percent John Jacobs. Only got about a five point two percent RJ McIntosh who was out for most of the year. He got an six percent. There was a decent amount at that like kind of guy. So there was some of these guys are a little older. But then you have guys like RJ McIntosh who McIntosh was rookie this year. And so there is still that rotation. So I think that is going to be the focus on how to improve that interior. It's just to keep a decent rotation. But still have enough quality there that you're not really losing anything when you get those guys on the field. Definitely in MacIntosh is going to be or at least could be one of. The real maybe under the radar but interesting guys to watch through the coming off season and into OT as in many camp in the training camp because we've basically did not see him until the season was almost over in. He. Had a thyroid issue if I remember correctly, and he also had another undisclosed illness that as far as I know we don't have any information about he didn't test as well as I thought he was going to. Back when he was preparing for the draft. But we also don't know how much of that is due to his medical issues if he could consistently play like he did when he was Quinton Nelson's worst nightmare when Notre Dame played Miami. That would be huge for the giants defense. But. I don't think they could count on that either. No. I think right now, he's probably slots as one of those back end rotation guys. I don't even I'm not even sure if you can put him as like the third guy in the rotation low. He kind of started to get those reps at the end of the season when he did play. But we'll see he's he's definitely not going to slot in as a starter, which even as a fifth round pick. He shouldn't be expected to have been there if healthy anyway. So I think yeah, he'll be interesting to see because we just didn't get to see a lot of him this season. But I think that he is a piece that can be put in there is a good thing for the giants. So there's not a full blank slate of what they might need to have as as an interior defensive rotation. Yeah. So now that we hit the high point of our quip defend cookie d. Offensive review. Let's start going down the slope. Yeah. It starts getting a little downhill from here's Woodstock about linebacker, and basically where that's going to start is with elegant, and how you view though, linebacker position in twenty eighteen is kind of how you view Alec ultra. And it's it's kind of maybe it's a it's a difficult place for some people because there was some production. He had the interceptions and the pick sixes. But overall a lot of bad angles on in coverage. There was a lot of miss tackles. There was just the the huge contract. And I think all of that has to play a big part in the valuation. So among one hundred fifty three defenders who had at least forty solo tackles, Alex Ogle tree was fourth in broken tackle rate per sports info solutions that is not the type of production want from the guy in the middle of. Of your defense. Someone who was getting tackles broken that consistently at that's just it's hard to to win like that. Because that's just a huge hole in the middle of your defense. And he doesn't really make up for it in other places. No. And we have to really ask about the production. He did have which a special came in the second half of the year. Which was definitely the easy part of the giant schedule. They faced a fun ch of backup quarterbacks and for the most part that was when old tree did most of his damage. So was he getting more comfortable in the news? What was for him in new scheme after the first half of the season? And then getting a buy week today. Jest it did he make adjustments and just find a level of comfort and play faster or were the backup quarterbacks helping him out by telegraphing their intentions with their eyes and just generally playing not good yet. It's food as say maybe it was a good bit of both. Maybe was. A little more comfortable. But also, I think when you look at the production, and you will something like play making EPA, which is basically expected points added for defensive players, which kinds of just takes into account the plays. They had a positive play. It's a little bit of a flawed way for via it's a little harder to accurately show defensive play making by expected points added. And when you look at that Ogle tree comes out, very well. Because of the point added he got from touchdowns, but some of those he was just in the right place right time, those deflections they fell into his hands and he scored so, but when you look at the things like he can control. That's that's where I I still have questions about whether he should be someone who holds up in the middle of that defense. Agreed. And then the giants did have a kind of rotation of linebackers who played beside him. When he was healthy. The starting middle linebacker or strong inside linebacker BJ Goodson personally, I like Goodson. But with Ogle tree being old tree. And having hit the athlete profile that he does as well. As being the kind of communicator leader on the defense that he is Goodson going to be the guy who comes off the field when they have to go into a sub package, which I which is almost a shame because I think he is actually the giant best all around linebacker. He doesn't have the range or athleticism that Ogle tree does. But he is he seems to be a more instinctive or I should say his play speed is faster. And he's definitely a better tackler. Neither one of those are very high bars. I and that's kind of the problem. The giants have a decent amount of resources. I invested in oak tree in the middle of that defense. So he's going to carry an eleven point seven five million dollar cap. It this year what they can do is again what they did last year is a take his guaranteed brasler bonus. And and restructured that and turned it into and restrictions the contract push some cap money down the line. But if you do that again that gives you basically another year guaranteed that algal tree is going to be on the team. So I'm not sure if you want to do that the giants would only save five hundred thousand dollars if they if they move on from Ogle tree that was one of the ramifications of the trade, he came with a big Catholic last year they had to restructure that to get under the cap and free up some space for other things they needed to do and they were in that win now mentality, and again, don't let Dave Gettleman tell you. He was not the Ogle trade and restructure was. Absolutely. A showcase. They were pushing money back into twenty thousand nine hundred and this might again push money into twenty twenty. So that's that's part of the problem. You have a lot of cap space in a player who is one now worthy of that. And at middle linebacker really replacement level at that position is so low A you can have some other guys like Zac Brown. Who's in Washington was much better linebacker than Ogle tree was a much better tackler was fined in coverage and he signed for like four million dollars. Maybe six a for a one year deal. So you could have had something else there that continues to be my problem with that Ogle trade. And we could probably do a and probably will at some point do a whole show. On just instances like that. From last year you there there. I don't use on. Okay. Let's let's move out to quarter now, which is probably the biggest place. The giants went for the quantity over quality strategy. Is they had generous Jenkins who was the big free agent signing in twenty sixteen. He had a great twenty sixteen had eight non create twenty seventeen remember him not showing up after the bye last year. No one questioned his will to play this year. But he just he did not play very well. And they behind him. They started the season with apple who had a rough first half of the season. Then got traded to New Orleans that moved be w Webb who did not play in the NFL last year that moved him from nickel corner to the outside corner that put grant Haley in with more snaps as the starting nickel corner. So as just everything moved down. There was not enough quality death to boost their what of the. Reasons the giants pass rush of like we said in the beginning. Also, it's something I wrote in that piece on the differences between the giants pass rush and the patriots pass rushers which were very similar the patriots. Just had a better secondary to cover up when there was pressure. The giants on we didn't even allow a yard fewer with pressure then without pressure a yards per tempt. And that is almost unheard of. They had a higher touchdown allowed when they dot pressure. Then they did without pressure. That is unheard of. I that's all because the secondary just could not hold up. So her solutions and football outsiders among eighty five qualified Cornerbacks. Jenkins was seventieth in yards allowed per pass and seventieth insect. Sess rate web was fully second in yards per pass. And he was an eighteenth insect cesary alive. Of that came when he was working in the slot earlier in the season here. We was fifty eighth in yards allowed per pass and seventy first insect cesary. So when you just have corners that are all holding up on a point of play basis, I into very hard for everyone else to do that. Yeah. And Jenkins would have stretches where he looked like the player he was in twenty sixteen. He got he was hurt for pretty much all twenty seventeen he was playing through a succession of injuries, which that didn't come out until either very close to the end of the twenty seventeen season. Or after it ended that just how many lower leg injuries he was playing through. But then he would just give up a big play now because of some other things and not knowing what the. That covered that was called. Or what the responsibilities were? I'm not going to exactly kill him because some of them. I'm sure weren't his fault which we will get to that in our in our next spot. When I think was good for a player who wasn't in the league the year before. But I'm still not comfortable relying on him to be. The number two corner for another year. He would have a good savvy play. But then he would also have reps that showed why he wasn't in the league the year before I think most of the hope here is with grant Haley who I think played better than pretty much. Anyone could have asked for being an undrafted free agent rookie. But like you said the they need better coverage especially to run the kind of defense that James Becher wants to run. They're not running a zone based kind of sit back on wait for the offense to make a mistake defense. They run a pressure defense and you need to have a secondary. That can hold up in coverage. I that that's just it. Yeah. Web was a nice piece and he did exceed expectations. But again, he's someone if you're projecting toward twenty nine thousand nine. Yeah. He's someone you want as that death Pete's and not number two quarter. Which is what he was at the end of last year the same thing for Hayley. He came in. He played a pretty well a little bit as the season. We're on a thing team started to pick on him a little more. And then that's where he started to struggle. I don't think a lot of that is on him. When you're using a win on drafted free agent. Like that that's not always going to work out. He's not going to be expected to shutdown everyone. I think just personally I liked the way he played. I liked him coming out of college. So I do have hopes for him projecting going forward. But you you have to think about all that and adjust the the lack of quality the giants had there is what stands out to me is really that that second. Dairy death and the secondary production is the biggest piece to me of why this defense struggle. Yeah. And I think that leads in perfectly to the final position group safety. Oh, and if we're going to talk about struggling in the secondary. Oh, man. All right. So Curtis Riley, and our old friend. Who are I is the time to just off the giants should sign. Eric reid. Hey, he's going to be a free engine again. Back. Yes. So for those of you that are new to listening and didn't really listen to you the first couple episodes. I think until Eric Reed was signed with the Carolina Panthers. That was a recurring theme of the podcast. The giants sign agreed because it became very apparent early on that Curtis rally was not good, and he was asked to play the single high free safety the very often. He just was not up to the task consistently took bad angles for tackles bad angles on the passing routes from the ball was in the air. So if we go back to those broken tackles and that one hundred fifty three players with forty or more solo tackles said Alec ultra was fourth in broken tackle rate. Curtis rally was second. And that's when you have someone getting tackles broken in the second level, and then you have someone getting broken tackles worse behind him. That's I don't know. How you expect to stop anybody? And. In the middle of your defense. Yeah. Riley was easily one of the worst hackers in the week. The only player who was worse was Jeff heath this safety from Dallas. And you Briley was another one of those quantity over quality in training camp. They threw out a whole bunch of players to try to win the free safety job. It was Curtis Riley, Jerry Thompson, Andrew Adams. I don't know how either one of those did not win the job, but they went with Riley and basically from week one. He was overwhelmed with the responsibilities. He had as the single deep safety. There were a lot of problems there. And that just continued to be a problem throughout the season. And the giants didn't have anyone to put in there to fix it. No I by the end of the season. They tried Michael Thomas. They cried Chandler and those guys. Thomas is I I like him. I'm not sure how you cannot like him. But he isn't an every down starting free safety. And neither is Chandler, really. I would say that is the single biggest hole on the giants defense is just free safety that position gets overlooked by a bunch of teams, and it is I might be overstating in a little bit. But it's that's the linchpin of a cover one blitzing defense you need that single high safety to a. Recognize what the offense is trying to do be nowhere. He is supposed to be see get there in deed, make the tackle. When he gets there. And. Riley chose E none of the above. So it was just a real weird. Just a week wind situation for safety's. There were a bunch of good ones in free agency. Can Eric Reed was one that trae boss was another. We signed a one year deal in Arizona. Just across the league that position was kind of ignored. It didn't make sense Darwin James fell to seventeenth in the draft. And that is just it's still insane. To me. It was very clear he was going to be good. So there were a just a lot of teams that just ignored it. And it didn't make any sense especially team the giants who was going to play a lot of of the single high safety that they did Ali was the last piece of defense out there. And he was the guy who had to break up deep routes the last wine of defense on running plays that were long, and he just couldn't do it. So I don't really understand a why that was how they. Sided to go about that position. And when we look forward that is absolutely going to be a place where they need to just rethink whatever they viewed that position to be heading into this season. Because definitely needs to change going into the next one. Oh, definitely. Well, I suppose we might as well. Get to our suggestions to improve. Because I think the other part of the safe you quesion part. We didn't mention is one of the biggest parts of the giants off season plans. And that is Landon Collins. Right. So a Tallinn's you played pretty well. He was asked to do some different things in this defense. He struggled a little bit. When he was put a one on one in man coverage. I think we over member the forty Niners. A basically started that game by by picking on him. Why why the giants were really asking a Collins to cover George Kitto one on one at the rate. They did is questionable. But denied IRS saw that and try to export that then in the second half, they moved onto exploiting algal tree. So those are two topics that we had discussed at that time. And then. Got hurt. He missed the last four games of the season. And his contract is up. He's going to be a free agent now in March once the new league year starts there's the big question on how the giants are going to go about that. And whether they can franchise him, if they can I seen some people suggest they put the transition tag on him, which makes absolutely no sense to me. Because what the transition tag does is basically just opened up for another team to give Collins an offer and the giants have the opportunity to match, but the giants aren't completely swimming in cap space. So there is a reasonable scenario where another team could come and structure a deal in a way that the giants would not feel comfortable matching. And then they would lose call into for nothing. The so I don't see how that would make sense at all. But then of course, I think the most ideal scenario is if they figure out a long-term. Term contract at that would keep callings in New York for a couple more years. I agree completely. Yeah. I like Landon Collins and the giants need to improve. And I don't believe you improve by letting good players leave just because they have some limitations. I think a big part of Collins struggles were had do with the stress put on him by an put on the defense as a whole by Ogle, tree and Riley. He was asked to do things that he isn't great at because the other guy's just flat couldn't do them. I think if they especially upgrade the free safety position that would allow Collins to do a lot more of what he is really good at which is roam around close to the line of scrimmage play kind of shallow. Zone. Coverage be that enforcer in the run game and an absolute heat seeking missile in the pass rush. Basically, if they upgrade if they find a competent free safety they could use Collins the same way spags did back in twenty sixteen when he had a historic season. We know he's capable that. So keep him and put him in position to do that yet, especially in that the better scheme that knows how to use that type of player in that pseudo lead baecker rule, they the he came from that money back a role in Arizona with Dion be Canada. I'm not sure Colin should be used. Exactly that way. The. But yes would who can play in the box Ken blitz. Landon Collins is a very good Blitzer. If you have him just around the bulk bore that is that is good. The decision has to be made of whether to. To tag him or not. And I think tagging him is no brainer. If a term deal can't get done. I think the deal should be getting along term deal done, especially because you can work out. The money is such that you can go where his campaign a little bit for twenty nineteen that will free up some more money for other improvements in roster because if you sign them to the franchise tag, that's probably around twelve million dollars this year, and you can't really maneuver that. That's that's a very solid twelve million dollars. But if you sign them to long deal, you can bump that down a little bit in the first year while he still getting enough money from a long term deal. So that's probably priority number one. And then they have to I think two other big things of whether to keep or not. And that is in VA Vernon engineers Jenkins. A lot of people are on the Verdon bandwagon. Just because of how much money he's making years a nineteen and a half. Dollar cap. It. The giants would save eleven point five million dollars by releasing him. I think the problem is did Vernon was very good. The pass. Rush was very good. So if you're getting rid of Vernon and the past sources just bound to regress because of the amount of pressure. They had even though the sax weren't there. A pressure rate is more predictive of future sacree than current sack rate is so if you're getting pressure without sacks, you're still more likely to have more sacks down the road. And that's what the giants are looking at in twenty nineteen. So if you replace Vernon you're basically only replacing something that is already going to improve. So you're kind of only breaking even there. So that doesn't make a lot of sense to me what you could do for Vernon is restructured his contract that adds a little more money next year. But it still creates the same amount of cap space. If you cut him after twenty nineteen I so I think that's the way to go. Oh, I'm fully on board with keeping Verde and maybe add an adding a secondary piece whether it be through free agency or maybe in the second round of the draft getting an edge rusher to add to that rotation. I think that is the best way to go about improving. The pass rush is adding to that unit and not subtracting. Absolutely. I did my second semi serious at least a series as it could be this time of year mock draft this past week, and I pretty much planned out. A worst case scenario for the giants to be picking at six and had twin Haskins off the board and casting myself in the role. Dave Gettleman, not even considering Kyla Maury unless you know, he happened to fall to the sixth round. And I was looking for a slot receiver. I wound up grabbing a polite out of Florida because I wanted to add to that pass rush. Not try to just replace Vernon with another guy who might not be able to get the same. Volume of pressure that he can yet instead of making a lateral move. I wanted to make an additive move which given how Vernon performance when he has a solid. Second piece or another. Good dangerous pass rusher. Possibly a multiplicative move. And that's like I said, I think that's where the giants need to go. If they want to get actually get better that and improving the secondary, which I of the decisions to meet I think to be made. I think is the one that we kinda disagree on a little bit yet. So if there's one cap casualty I think I would go with Jenkins of releasing him. This year would would free up seven point seven five million dollars of savings per over the cap. So he's already scheduled to make fourteen point seven five this year. The releasing him takes away just about half of that. So I think replacing Jenkins and replacing his production is going to be easier on a cheaper contract for either even rookie and remember Sam Bill will be on the team in twenty nineteen. The third round supper. Memento draft pick. So he'll be in the cornerback rotation. I think replacing Jenkins is going to be much easier. Especially when you look at some of the the free agents that could be available. If you wanna go Kareem Jackson is on the older side. But he might not get a lot of money in free agency. You can bring him in the Morris Claiborne, then you have dies even if you wanna go nickle like Justin Coleman from the Seahawks. You're Bryce Callahan from the bears. If you want to take a just a watery shot, low risk high reward, you can go Jason beret from the chargers who hasn't really been healthy into years. But when he's been healthy is one of the top quarterbacks in the week. If you give him maybe an incentive Laden deal that has low guarantees and he pans out. And that's that's a top quarter that you have you have Bradley Roby who is going to be free agent. Someone like Ronald Darby even Orlando scam. Drake was much better than his his perception in Kansas City this year. There are a lot of free agents here where I think you don't have to be paying the chickens premium to get that type of quality, which I think you would have to do to replace Vernon us. So I think trying to go out and replacing Jenkins just makes a lot more sense financially and with on the field production to me. Yeah. I absolutely see that. But I personally would just leave Jenkins alone and try to upgrade around me again fix the free safety position. Because then you have that guy back there. Facilitating communication getting the right getting assignments, right? And providing the double team where it needs to be which I think would help both corners, and like you said they will beginning Sam Beal, he is we've talked before he has all the physical tools. You can ask for except maybe a little bit of. Strengthen thickness. But when it comes to just his feet and hips inability to just get in a receivers hip pocket in stay there. He's got that ability. And I think having him as your number two corner would end fixing the free safety position would allow Becher to call more of that pressman coverage that he likes which is also what Jenkins excels, and that's when he's at his best when he can just man up and stick with a corner instead of playing more zone coverages, which was what the giants kinda had to do when they moved to having BW web on the field every snap and try to give Curtis Riley less field to cover. Yeah. We're not going to disagree on free safety being a major piece of emphasis going into the off season. I when you look at just did safety. It's. It's an interesting free agent class. You have Marquis store. You have Earl Thomas who's going to be coming off an injury tyrant. Matthew. So there's there's some some top tier guys. And then you have guys who maybe if you do now go for a guy like trae Boston who's probably going to be a little cheaper. I think that route mean the bar to upgrade at safety is so low for the giants that you don't totally need to go all out. And it also depends on how the league now is going to view the safety position. Again this year if it's another crazy year whether or not really throwing out a lot of money there's going to be value to be had at this position again. So you kinda think happy to see how the market comes out because maybe the giants can get a huge upgrade and not pay a lot of money, which would absolutely be ideal. Yeah. If they could somehow walk walkaway from this free agency period by keep. Ping. You know, some of their better players not having to release them for cab money, maybe come out with Tyronn. Matthew Andrel Thomas, which if you look at the caliber of player, that's an absolute moonshot. But if the market doesn't correct upwards at safety, it might be doable. Elsie I think that that would take a lot of cat. Maneuvering, I believe even if the market doesn't fully correct itself. I think those two guys are probably going to get a decent amount of money. But, but if you have a guy like a Boston, I think he should be someone the giants do target. It'd be a huge upgrade probably won't cost a lot. I still only twenty seven right now. So I think that's that's where to go. But I I think I think we both agree. And I'm not sure if this is where the giants are going to go, but the secondary should. Be where the giants are really putting their efforts in improving and the pass rush as few sacks as they had that should not be where they do most of the focus and fuel like major improvements are needed there. Because the pressure was there and the sacks are going to come. That's really just how it works. So. Really scared. They are going to cut Vernon and try to bring in some other big number one piece either with the six overall pick or paying a lot in free agency. And those pass rushers are going to cost a lot more in free agency than a safety or corner are going to and then it's just going to be a wash because of how the pass rush would have improved. Anyway. So I think I just want like to have that overall view of the secondary should be a much higher priority of what they need to improve than the pass rushes. Definitely the pass. Rush should be built upon. They've got a foundation there. Hopefully, hopefully, Lorenzo Carter will be able to realize his potential it might take another year of development as he basically gets used to playing just edged instead of wearing all the hats like he did. In georgia. But he's got that just freakishly freakish spark rating, which we both said in a few times the giants need on defense. They need those kind of just ridiculous athletes who can out athlete the offense of player. Now. He just needs to be able to put that to use. Yeah. And I think that's what you're hoping for in out of those physicians that the guys who showed some promise a look continue to show that. And either the guys who didn't show that promise or either improved upon or they step up their game. And that's really the only options that the giants have right now. And I think when you look at it's a lot of resources are going to be put into the defense. Just depends on where the gentlemen, and the coaching staff believe those resources should be put on defense. So I think will will end. This show. They're just kind of wait to see how this turns out of because it's going to be interesting to see where the giants do feel those needs fall. So the we're going to be back to back to some more draft stuff next week. A we are going to have marks go field on the show again to talk about some draft quarterbacks. We talked to him once before a lot of people like that episode IV very much like that episode. So we're going to bring him on again, we're going to talk in-depth about a lot of the draft quarterbacks. So look forward to that. You can subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your podcast, pres rating view, if you have not that helped us out greatly Afo our work on big. We've you dot com. Phone big view on Twitter at big blue view on Instagram at big underscore, Blu underscore view. You can follow me on Twitter at Dan Zoot fell Chris on Twitter at raptor, M K. I thank you for listening, and we will talk to you again soon. Mama's Spencer home by name is Jason Kirk. My name is Ryan nanny week combined. We form the shutdown full stran-. I keep telling you the shutdown forecast is technically college football podcast. But it's also a show about care disaster regional grocery stores. We live Tennessee Batman homeowners associations bears in video games. Pittsburgh Batman the hell of being trapped into group. Text unreliable legal advice. 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Big Blue reView: Another break down in Philadelphia

Big Blue View

38:56 min | 2 years ago

Big Blue reView: Another break down in Philadelphia

"Hey, everyone on today's show. We break down the giants loss to the eagles. We talk about some of the struggles in game planning why the giants really blew their read in the fourth quarter and talk a lot about the deficiencies on the defensive side of the ball. So that he has her listening, and let's get to. Hello and welcome to the big blue review podcast. I am damn zoo to join teeter by Chris Vaughn. And we are here in the aftermath of a twenty five twenty two New York. Giants loss to the Philadelphia Eagles it Chris. I think last week we talked about how what the giants were doing was was playing with fire a little bit in how the game plan against Tampa Bay and that ended up in a win. But we said it's going to be dangerous if they do that again against philli, and they might not be as lucky, and I think that's exactly what happened in this game. Yup. For some reason trying to pay your team's weakness against the other teams strength didn't work out against a team that wasn't one of the absolute worst in the league. It's amazing. Let's just get into game. Plan part because that is that was a big part of what happened in this game, and then abide some circumstances became a big thing of what happened after the game. So after the game Odell Beckham was asked about the deep shots. And why there wasn't a whole lot of passes really really going out of their way to target the eagles secondary which was down five defensive backs five even Cornerbacks not even defensive backs five corners, and we could go step further say they're also down Jordan Hicks, their top linebacker, who's a really good coverage. Linebacker so the the outside and the middle of their defense was weak against the pass. Yes. So what's just run through who they started at cornerback is. So let's just go over crew. The eagles had at cornerback in this game. Devante bus be played ninety eight percent of the snaps. Crayon will block played seventy three percent of defensive snaps. Chandon sullivan. Played sixty eight percent of the snaps. The were the guys that Oto Beckham and sterling shepherd were going against. And there was just not a lot of ways that tried to take advantage of that. And that it's something we talked about last week against Tampa Bay where there wasn't a lot that went against their secondary. That was making opposing authentic look like the Los Angeles Rams passing game by the numbers and then going into this game. The eagles were down their entire secondary. They were down five quarterbacks. The giants right now have five cornerback. On their roster. So think about who the giants have on their roster right now. Now take away all those guys. And would you could you imagine another team going against that group of secondary players and not throwing the ball down the field all the time more. Specifically, could you imagine that group of secondary players having to defend Odell Beckham lit loan? Sterling Shepard yet. It's insane. Even when these guys were healthy the eagles were thirty second in big play rate allowed on defense and the giants just took no advantage of that. And it's insane in for Beckham to come out and say after the game that asked asking first of all that asking why there weren't more downfield shots is a question for the coach. And the he's right that it is your but for him to say looking at what the eagles had at the secondary. He would have liked if it was in the game plan more dude on him like he should be frustrated that wasn't. In the game plan. Imagine you having Odal Beckham and not using him against guys that probably at least three quarters of you listening to this have never heard of that is that is insane to me. And I think we have to figure out what what the reasoning there is is it that the giants just really think they have like such a strong run game that they don't need to throw down the field. And if so that's flawed thinking process is it because they don't trust their quarterback to throw downfield that often and take advantage of that. If that's the case that you seriously in need a new quarterback, and you and you should not be the giving us the thing that you'll I still has years left. If he's the reason you're not game planning. So we need to find out what the reason for these the non-aggressive game plans are and fix it. Because it's it's insane. They got away with a win last week. But they play the same game plan this week. And it just it didn't work and we saw that coming. I think they don't do it. And this isn't the first time that they did it against the eagles. The first time they did it against the saints who have have a horrific past defense it this is the fourth or fifth time this season. We have seen the giants. Go up against a Italy flawed pass defense and just not attack it at all or at least not into Bill. They were desperate. And I think they're not doing it. Just because they don't want to do it. We saw in the week after the bye week. They came out and doubled down on the short quick passes. The short week I had against Philadelphia. They had one of their most anemic passing tax of the season. Both of those times. That's when you see you who you. You are as a team what the foundation of your offense and defense are. And that's who they are. I mean, this offense is it's so frustrating to watch especially given how the we as a whole is trending everything else is trending towards these these deep passes and more aggressive playcalling on offense. And the giants are just completely ignoring it. Yeah. And especially considering how they are built now. Yes. Most most of the giant skill position players were or at least Beckham shepherd and Ingram were acquired by juries fine. But they're on the team there who you have to work with and they're all three of them are matchup nightmares along saquon Barkley and the offense is just handcuffing them. They're asking them to play with their feet and cement and. To make any kind of yardage beat three four five defenders. Like, you said it's frustrating to watch. Yeah. I it just it doesn't make any sense. So I mean the giants were able to put up crapload of yards in the first half. They they they did dominate the eagles defence a, but we came away with nineteen points. And I think you could tell at that point at least you should have been able to tell that that wasn't going to be enough, especially if they let up in the second half like they did against Tampa. And that is exactly what happened the giants just stopped being or not even stopped being refused to be aggressive really early in the second half. When when they could have put up a some more points, and there were some place where where they were aggressive. So let's let's talk about the the interception to end the first half. So the giants had seventeen seconds left in the. I after the ball on the twenty seven and one time out and then throws them bad interception toward Odell Beckham. I there were two guys coming in on them. So that obviously is aggressiveness being bad. But that actual play was not that it was allies decision to throw to that specific spot. That was that he had the broadcast pointed out that Barkley was opened on check down and as much as we have said stop throwing to Buckley on check down. That is a point in the game. Where that absolutely makes sense. You throw to Barclay on a check down, especially with one time outlast you still probably have one more shot to the end zone before you have to kick a field goal. He also had Corey Coleman. As a check down option on the other side of the field and to his right? He had surly shepherd on wide open quarter that probably could have gone for a touchdown, but his progression. Just never went that way. So that play in general was a good. Call there were three good options ally. Just took the worst one. Yeah. I I have to go back and rewatch the game still waiting for the coaches tape to come out. Unfortunately, the NFL game pass takes half a forever for that to happen. I do wonder if on that play. They didn't have basically two two concepts called a man beater on one side and zone beater on the other and allegis went with whichever concept he read, and that's why he didn't go to the other options or he just wanted. He just trusted ode L to go up and make a play which is generally not a terrible course of action more often than not one of the best receivers in the league is going to make a play. Like, you said, I don't hate the thought process. But again, yet the decision not great. Yes. Being being aggressive to try to get another touchdown at the end of the half was necessary. They they needed that. And obviously it wasn't the nineteen points. They had was not going to be enough. And that was clear almost as soon as the second half started on that they were going to need more points. So yeah, that was it was definitely going to be a need and being aggressive there. I have absolutely no problem with this specific throw. I absolutely. We have a problem with. There was no way that was going to be completed and ally needs to know that for someone who has loved check downs all season for him to finally want to Ford something there is not ideal. So maybe let's talk about ally. As as much as we talk about him. I'm not sure if he's going to be as much of a conversation in here for this game because there's a lot of other things to break down on offense. But you I was not particularly good in this game. He still had eight yard. Pre attempt and just under three hundred yards passing. But he had a QBR of forty six. They gained QBR if you just kind of break it down could be a win probability statistics. So players who teams you have a quarterback who play like ally did in this game should be win the game forty six percent of the time. And that's just that's not good. I'm not sure you can look at the game and say, you'll ally was the reason they lost what he certainly didn't help them win. And that's pretty much where he is quarterback. He can quarterback you to a win. But. He's. Not going to have a superhuman effort and will a team to victory and he's also probably not going to make crippling mistakes. Really? He is what he is. Right now. And like you said there were there are so many of their things we could talk about. Yes. So I before we get to some of the other things, I think there is a part of ally that we can talk about and I think it's with this game plan. So last week he had one incompletion. And I think that's the reason that game plan was able to work. I e was able to convert on the passes that they had. And I think if if he doesn't have OBI one incompletion last week, they probably will lose that game. So what what my problem was was. I thought they were going to learn the wrong lessons from that game against Tampa last week. And I think they did because ally was not nearly as good as he was last week. And I think that's part of the reason they was sticking with this game plan. Now as we move forward is some of things we can really talk about in this game plan. And I think people had a lot of questions about what happened in the second half. And in how plays recalled in. Second half. And there was a big call that the giants had abandoned the run and that I'm just going to say right now that is objectively not true in the second half to the giants had to put on their first three drives in the second half. But let me read out to you. What those plays where a Barkley run up the middle for three yards. Then ally got sacked on his second and along where they should be passing. Then on a third in eighteen it was Barkley up the middle for four yards. Then they point the next drive. And this is where maybe you can question of what happened because Barclay was not on the field for this. Dr. They were getting Goeman sometime, but I'm not totally upset with that. I think it's fine to get Wayne Gelman a drive at some point. But those plays were Goldman for five yards Goldman for seven yards. But then a false start by Nate solder than in Capri pass on I fifteen than a negative three yard run on second and fifteen and then. A negative two yard pass on third and eighteen after a time out to avoid a delay of game. I'm so the giants are running and then and then the next drive is when they went three and out on three passes where two incompletions and a sack on third down. But there were plenty of runs there. It's just there were penalties that push them back. There were sacks that push them back. And that's what the push the giants back and did not allow them to go. There were plenty of runs there. The problem was some of them just weren't successful. In the first half was basically convinced the giants. They could run the ball. But that was mostly just safe on Barkley doing saquon Barkley things and making other elite athletes, look silly. And that was almost all the the long touchdown run. Because if if you look at what Barclay did by success rate by expected points added so this measures how many? Any runs? He had that had positive expected points at it. Will we two of his thirteen runs in this game had positive EPA? That's a success rate of fifteen point four percent. That is terrible. I'm so if he did if he stayed with the same success rate in the second half he would have been putting the giants back anyway. And that's that's one of the problems of of being did so run heavy like that is when the plays aren't working at he can put the giants back by trying to establish the run or whatever you wanna call it Wayne golden for how angry you might be at the Barclay not being on the field. Four of his five carries had positive expected points added. So that's an eighty percent success rate. So there's there's a huge difference there. So to say that the giant abandoned the run in the second half is absolutely lazy. And I'm calling. I'm sorry. I'm calling out who. Ever wanted to say that after the game because it's objectively just not true. That is not why the giants blue with the lead in the second half. It's it's not in fact, I would say the China should probably have a lot more plays. If they even have any with both Gelman and Barclay on the field. A little bit of housekeeping. We didn't mention was that evident GRA missed the game due to a very late hamstring injury. After the inactive were declared. He tweaked polled. I don't know. Maybe you have Dan. I haven't seen the severity of the injury. But during more warm ups he injured his hamstring and can play. But I'm not sure you can tell me that Scott Simonsen is a better option than wing Allman. If you want to move the ball and score points, right? I would love to see him plays with both running backs on the field at the same time both of them can catch the ball too. So that doesn't take anything away in the passing game. And I mean as as big of a loss as Ingram should be. He's obviously showed up in with really big plays at the end of the past two games the last two weeks, but he had the giants lost. Right. Didn't has fourth quarter secret weapon. That's right. They didn't have their closer the as banged up. As this secondary was at his banged up. As eagles secondary was even not having Ingram should not have been that big of a deal in for this offense. The and they still were able to move the ball in the second half. The problem is what happens once they get down to the red zone. And I think that was absolutely an issue in this game. They completely cramp up. Now. Once once they get to the red zone so on on their second drive once they get to first goal. They have Barkley for one yard embark you for two yards on second goal from the nine and then an incomplete pass to Barclay that maybe had some defensive contact there. But again, you're you're not even the rowing to the end zone until third and goal from the seven and then in the Dr William the game when they're down twenty two nineteen they get inside the red zone. There's a short pass to shepherd on I ten from the seventeen then there's a. One yard run from Barclay on second and five from the twelve and then they don't throw toward the end zone until third and four again that's another pass with Beckham. There was some defensive contact. But you can't just hope there's going to be defensive contact on these plays. You you have to try and again, there's just short yard runs to Barclay right up the middle that are not working and are putting the giants in a third down situation where they have to throw at you can't always trust them because they have actually been really bad on third down. There was a chart I put in the authentic preview for this game on big review. That was one of the craziest third-down switz- I have ever seen one of the best ways to convert their down is to not face them. And the giants have actually been good with that on Sunday had coming into this game. Like seventy eight percent of their first downs came on first or second down, and that is incredible. But the problem is when they don't gain. In yards on first and second down. They have the longest average third down in into league when they do face it. And they are awful at converting third down. A when when they do face it is and that was that ended up being a problem late in this game. They run these unsuccessful plays on first and second down, and they put them in third and long I and they just can't convert and that was again something that happened, especially when it happens in the red zone here. And that's when things turned into fuel goals when they should be scoring touchdowns. Yeah. And I think that plays into the to the identity crisis. The giants have they're built to be a chunk yardage team. And they're almost like the Yankees hitting home runs. If they're going to score it's going to be on the Longueville. And if the giants are going to get a first down it's because they're going to be picking up yards on either first or second down. They just don't have it in them to be a methodical short. Yardage team. Yes. Let's let's keep with that analogy. Imagined the Yankees have. Oh, these home run hitters and imagine hanging come in or general manager come in and tell them they should be hitting ground balls through the middle. Yeah. It that's exactly where the giants are right now there. They've got home run hitter after homerun hitter in there telling them to hit Brown bowls through the gap between short and second or bunt down the third baseline. That's that's kind of ridiculous actually, not kind of it is. Yeah, it absolutely is. And that's it's a it's been a problem for the offense. They've been able to hit more big plays as of late. So it's covered up some of the problems. But when you have when you have a game like this, and they need to have those types of plays. They just they can't convert, but I think for as much as we harp on the authentic, and that's obviously easy to do because it was not great in this game. Or at least not where it should have been a especially from the game plan perspective. But I think we should jump over to the other side of the ball. Because again, the defense was not good and part of why the author. Should have been more aggressive early is because we knew this defense was probably going to give up some plays late, which it did it that's pretty much. What they always do part of. It is the offense gets to spot where they just can't sustain a dry. I've and the defense will get gassed, I suppose even though in this game the eagles and the giants had almost the same replace the giants had sixty two offensive plays. The eagles had sixty five which is really what a defense is expected in condition to be on the field for. But eventually they're just the other team has just going to break through we see it again. And again, and again, and again part of it is because the giants have no pass rush. Even even with Olivier Vernon back. He has been a severe disappointment. And they can't they don't seem to be able to get much in the way of pressure on the quarterback unless they're blitzing and even. It's spotty. And the coverage is the coverage is worse than a cellphone back in nineteen ninety eight. Yeah. I mean, they are working through a lot on that the back end of the secondary. But it's just it's the same things we see over again. And now, I think there's even more stress on that secondary. Because when Collins has been playing more linebacker over the past couple of weeks, he's which for him is not a bad thing himself. So when when you look at that, I don't think that's a bad thing. I like him in. I think now he is playing that money back or role where he is he's lined up like next to Alex Ogle tree on on a lot of these plays now. And I don't think that's a bad thing. I think that's probably where he's best suited. We can disagree on whether may putting him in that position. And having him covers some tight ends one on one is the best use of him. But. I think overall having him in the box is not a bad thing. But now that's putting worst-dress on some of these guys into secondary putting more stress on W web. That's putting more stress on grant Haley who I think did have a pretty good game. He had a tough ask for most of the time on golden Tate into slot. But I think he played pretty well considering Sean Chandler is playing more. And and now that puts that puts couriers Riley in in single high sets of more often, and that as as we know is not a great thing of for the defence a so that puts a lot of stress on that secondary. Especially when they are sending these blitzes ender, not aways getting home it exactly. And I think the problem isn't Landon Collins per se, it's that they don't have the pieces around him to use him at his best, you know, a free safety, and we've talked about this before a free safety is important, really important. Way more important than it gets credit for being in a modern NFL defense. And when you're running basically a blitz heavy cover one defense, which you need that single high safety taking away the deep routes or recognizing where the offense is going and providing the double team wear it has to be you cannot hide bad free safety play. You just can't and the giants also need one. Good linebacker. And maybe that's why Landon Collins is playing we're linebacker now because because they do need that. I'm we'd be I think we need to talk about Alec which again because he mode. We was bad in this game. It's it's maybe not things you would see unless unless you pay a close attention. But just rewatching the game. It was. He sometimes he does what he's supposed to do to a fault. So on disaster. Erz touchdown. Oh was a fifteen yard touchdown Erz. It was like a second and nine urged just ran to the first down marker and turned around and Ogle tree kind of had his feet planted in zone. Coverage exactly where he was supposed to be. But didn't react to Erz. Even though he was the only player remote we close to his own Ogle tree. Just kind of stood Pat in his own and didn't react until the ball was thrown to earth. And by that time, it was too late and was able to break through his tackle. And then like three more tackles on his way to the end zone. Then there was the Corey Clemente. Thirty two yard run in the second quarter Ogle tree. The I I don't know what he's thinking. If he just like stays where he was he. Should have been able to tackle commend in the gap. But instead he just forces contact on Jason Peters who had pulled and completely takes himself out of the play by basically blocking himself like he didn't need to do that. There was there was no point to forcing contact with the offensive linemen, and it took himself out of the play and created a wide open gap for a big run. He gets he gets blocked out of plays so often. And then there was the past defense that he got credit for, but it was on a blitz he filled down, and as he got up whence didn't see him. So the ball hit off his helmet as he stood up. And then it almost bounce into Nelson adores hands who would have been able to have a gigantic run after the catch if he had caught it. He's just he's either out of position or he's in position so much to a fault where he's not naturally reacting to. Anything? And when he's the center of your defense. That's it's not doing you. You can't have defense like that. And it allows everyone else suggests run around on the offense. And they know exactly how to take advantage of where he's going to be. Oh, yeah. You know? I I'm not sure if it is a lack of instincts or perhaps maybe a slower processing speed, but just. All the time. No matter how many tackles he has you always see him just advocacy either just laid arriving just like getting off a block, whatever. And adding a player run through an arm tackle or him, just missing the tackle. And as a player runs past him. It's it's just another thing. That's just so frustrating to see or him in coverage and not taking up a guy running through his zone. Just standing there. And watching the backfield yet he does a lot of times with running backs. They come out of the backfield. He'll stand in the middle of his own in the middle of the field and won't react. When someone is running past him. He we've zone to like naturally react to something. And he doesn't react in to the past is in the air. And by that time it's way too late and for for all the talk about how athletic he is. And his speed. And whatever it everything he has a he negated because he doesn't react fast enough. Yeah. Exactly it none of that matters. Because his I guess, I don't know if it's as mental processing. Feeder whatever, but what he does mentally puts him step behind and his athleticism is not good enough to make up for that step. He'd be athletic enough. If he reacted when he was supposed to, but he rarely does he do that. And I think if he did he would still be around. Yeah. That's that's probably the case. And I mean, we're not gonna get on some of these other defensive players so much because because they are young guys who maybe aren't supposed to be in the position they are right now. But Ogle Trie was supposed to be the guy. And I mean, their word some of us who didn't think he played well as a Raham, obviously, the Rams were one of those teams even though they gave him that big contract. But he was supposed to be the guy they they gave up an asset. Even though it was only a fourth round pick. But they took on the contract which was much bigger which forced other moves down the line. Right. And he was supposed to be the guy in the middle of the defense. And that just it hasn't worked out, and that's why we will get on him so much because that was supposed to be the big move that put that centerpiece of the defense and made everything else work, and that has been one of the biggest problems on the defense. And you know, take Davis undrafted rookie at a Chattanooga. He played the second most snaps among linebackers. But I can't I can't get on him for you know, whatever mistakes he made he's an under after rookie. You're not supposed to be supposed to be relying on guys like that to be a significant piece of your defense because the guy who was supposed to be the guy. Can't cover and you need somebody with some kind of athleticism and functional athleticism a nickel downs, which are most of them. It's tough to see if that's something that can be fixed and with something so exploit -able in the middle of the defense. I mean now sport opposing offenses are going to continue to go against that. And use that against the giants. So I mean next week. They have the bears. Can you imagine Alec Ogilvie trying to run after two Rico it like, that's that's that's not going to work that? But that's what we're going to see whether it's Mitchell Trubisky or chase Daniel's thrown him the ball. That's what we're going to see cause. Cohen is their leading receiver. Yeah. And if not then it's Trey Burton who is able to move at the tight end position that it's just there's as we continue to push forward in the season. I think more questions than answers have popped up. And I don't think that was a regardless of of whether anyone thought the giants should be competitive, or or whatever you thought the end result of this giant season was going to be I think along the line. We were supposed to get answers on a bunch of things heading into the twenty nine hundred season. And I'm not totally sure if that's been the case, I think more questions have come up then answers have as as we look to what this team is going to end up being. And I think a lot of that comes in the. Defense right now. And at that linebacker position is I think one of them because of the effort that was made to sure up that position that just hasn't worked that. And again, I keep coming back to the free safety position. But I think giants fans have seen the difference. A good free safety can make in look back to when Kenny Phillips was back there. Jason Witten went on or was asked on ESPN interview. What kind of a different Phillips makes or made? And he straight up said Phillips took place out of their playbook. They did not run vertical plays when he was back at free safety because they knew they weren't going to be there. The giants have seen will hill at free safety when he wasn't suspended and it made an incredible difference. And then they've also seen guys like Brandon Meriweather free safety and now Curtis Riley. So that's another one I keep coming back to and it with the needs they have on offense in the pressing needs. They have on offense the defensive questions might not get answered or they can only answer so many questions. Yeah. That that seems to be what is again going to be a struggle and a dilemma. As as they go into the season. And right now, those those deficiencies on the defense, I were a big reason that cost them the game against the eagles. Now, I think part of it was the willingness to be aggressive on offense. And that that's not a personnel issue. That is I mean, maybe it is if the reason for that is the quarterback then that turns into a personnel issue of you're going to need a new quarterback. If that's what is making you so averse at being aggressive. But I think that is going to be more of a coaching thing where as we said the the offense is just going to be ended be coaching in game planning. But but the defense is where this team lacks talent. And it has continued to come up last week against Tampa Bay. They were able to just hold on. And a like we said last week they were able to hold. It on because they were gifted these interceptions of by Ryan Fitzpatrick and Jameis Winston Carson Wentz is not that guy. He's not the guy who's going to be gifting interceptions, and he didn't and there weren't turnovers in this game. So when the eagles were still able to move the ball late in the game. Those ended up in points two field goals and a touchdown in the second half for the eagles. They were just able to to move the ball in the giants weren't able to do anything about it. And that's a problem that has been a problem that debt continues to pop up, and it's definitely going to be a problem against the bears next week. Oh, definitely. Although the bears and looking at the bears defense. I'm not sure the giants defense is even going to enter into it. I the bears defense might score enough points on its own that their offense might not even have to take the field. You said the. The offense of light has been playing a little better. It's not as atrocious. As it was in the beginning of the season. There's still some things that need to be worked out giants up two sacks in this game. But yeah, like Khalil Mack. And and akiem Hicks are going to be no joke and say what it Floyd and the rest of those guys end end the secondary is going to be good. So who knows what the giants game plan in this game. The way the season has been going. This is going to be the game where the giants want you drop back and throw the ball twenty yards down the field against Khalil Mack. And and Kyle fuller and Eddie Jackson in in the secondary their safety, then dope prince amukamara. Yeah. So man who no it's it's been a confusing disappointing season. And this was a confusing and disappointing game. I think we can end right there. Yeah. Yes. So I I think that pretty much sums it up. So please subscribe to this podcast. If you have not you'll get these shows you'll get our draft show at the end of the week. You also get to Valentine's views episodes of that will be coming pres rate and review if you have not pres Voeller work at big view on Twitter at big review Instagram at big underscore, Blu underscore view. You can follow me on Twitter at Dan Zuhdi fell Chris on Twitter at raptor, M K. I the we will be back later in the week for our college show. I guess we'll we'll be preview in some some conference championship games. Probably dive into another position because we did not do that this past week. But we will be doing that. Thank you guys for listening, and we will talk to you again soon. Hello. I'm Spencer home from SP nation. And I wanna tell you about my new show. It seemed smart it seems smart as a show about people doing things that for some reason or another same smart enough time. Those things might include doing a little cocaine and driving a bike up mountain or I don't know maybe racing one hundred miles per hour across the country in the middle of the night with no one's permission or even stealing a bat from an empire is room in a major league baseball park, check it out. And if you like it Tele friend, I'm Spencer hall, don't do anything smart.

giants eagles Barclay Barkley Odell Beckham Tampa Bay Philadelphia Eagles New York Tampa NFL Chris Vaughn bears Ogle tree Wayne Gelman Alec Ogilvie Ingram Chandon sullivan Los Angeles Rams
Potential and necessary breakout players for 2019

Big Blue View

35:05 min | 2 years ago

Potential and necessary breakout players for 2019

"Truffle men, and I'm hosting curbs new podcast. Nice, try it stories about how people have tried to design a better world. And what happens when those designs don't go according to plan season. One is called utopian. And it's about the perpetual search for the perfect place. It includes cannibalism fascist architecture. Poly-amorous hermetically, sealed domes and Courtney Kardashians dining room chairs, but not necessarily in that order, new episodes of nice, try come out every Thursday. Subscribe for free on apple podcasts or in your favorite podcast app. Hi. This is Peter Kafka. I'm the host of Recode media. It's an awesome podcast that I make about media to tell you about specific episode. I think you will listening to Jimmy Petar president ESPN, one of the most powerful programming networks on TV also one that's under a lot of stress. He's down the fifteen months we talked about what he's doing to reshape that thing and, or keep it competitive all the other sports networks and the internet in general. It's a good conversation. You can listen to it for free. Jimmy Petar was on the Recode media podcast with me, Peter Kafka, apple podcast, four wherever you are listening to this message right now. Welcome to the peak. We've you podcast. I am Dan position to join T of Chris flood, Chris how're you doing today doing pretty good. Only one show this week. So I should be feeling pretty good. Yeah, not a lot going on. We've had some OTA's about one open to the media over the past week, minicamp starts in the beginning of June. So we're kind of in that in-between time when things are still happening. So as we do that today we're going to just talk about some of the younger players, we think, either could or can a need to break through to the next level in terms of their play for twenty nineteen we're going to focus on some of the younger players. The giants last year per football outsiders were ranked nineteenth in at snap waited age, which as that name would suggest kind of weights each player's age by the snaps they played. They were nineteenth fourteenth on offense. They were twenty first on defense. I think they'll probably stay around that area. They've gotten younger at some positions. But older at some other places, right, tackle, you got Antoine Pathy who's going. To be significantly older at free safety miss. Oh, I think they'll be around the same. But I think there has been an influx of younger players on this team. So today we're going to talk about the guys who could break out were the guys who kind of need to break out for the giants to be successful team in twenty nineteen. Yeah. The giants have bring in veterans and they hope those guys can kind of provide some structure in the locker room on the roster for their younger guys to learn and develop. But that all kind of hinges on those young guys actually developing and stepping up making an impact just going forward. So with minicamp just around the corner. The giants will be having there's from the fourth through the sixth. So just next week we thought it'd be a good time. Just take a look at some of those guys. Yeah. Some of these guys are going to be new edition somewhere guys who have been on the Russell for a little bit. So let's just dive in Chris. Let's get to the first guy you want to talk about. Yeah. My first one is a guy brought up a few times, I sometimes think I might be his only fan and supporter among the giants fan. Boom in media in that is linebacker. BJ goodson. I think especially since Alec old tree came came onto the team Goodson has been in something of a forgotten man. But I also think he might be the giants best linebacker. We've known since he was coming out and. Especially clemson's game against Notre Dame. He can play downhill. He plays the run. Very well. He is really good at. Attacking offense lineman stacking in shedding getting himself clean in the making play on the running back. He is legitimately graded that, but I think he is also overlooked as a coverage linebacker mentioned on our last show. He was actually the best linebacker in coverage in the NFC east, and one of the best players in coverage. Now granted that is a small sample size for him because the giants took him off the field quite a bit in passing situations. But. He wasn't exploited or at least wasn't exploited often when he was on the field. And in the NFL nowadays just about every situation as a passing situation. Also also, he's entering a contract year, and if he wants to either remain in New York giant or get a decent second contract. He's going to have to break out. He's going to have to. Reemerge as a viable starting inside linebacker. Yes. So he was certainly less active in a pass role. Then Alec Ogle. Tree was looking at sports in positions charting, right now they have Alec Ogle tree with three hundred ninety seven coverage naps Goodson had two hundred and ten but not as big a difference in targets Ogle tree saw thirty eight goods and saw twenty six Ogle Trie allowed, sixty five point eight percent, completion percentage, Goodson, was sixty one point five five point five eight yards per target for Goodson Oglesby was six point four two. So a good thing I think you can argue was much better than Ogle tree. It's especially in the beginning of the year. So I agreed that good in that should be able to debt were upper tutti in that role. The thing is the giants are currently very firm believers in algal tree in the games he played. He was on the field for a hundred percent of the snaps but we saw there was even before we saw this year, that there were some elapses in coverage that was kind of his thing with the Rams that we're going to be lapses in coverage. Oh, I think Goodson shoud have the ability to play that role more, especially since we don't really know what Brian Conley's going to be like, Nate Stupar. It isn't going to be that guy. So the giants do still have that need as a coverage linebacker. I think Goodson has the ability to do that if they allow him to be on the field in those situations. And also from the giants perspective in for a longer term perspective. If Goodson can step up and establish himself in that role is just an every down linebacker that they can trust to do his job. Beury's supposed to be disciplined in his own coverages, but not slavish to the own basically just be smart and aware of. About it. Which is what you need in zone coverage that could give them the option of moving on from Ogle tree, and that contract of his, which they would have to eat some dead money, but that would still be great contract to get out from underneath. Right. I mean that's probably not going to happen until after the twenty nineteen season. Ogle tree is fairly cut -able just three point five billion dead money after the twenty thousand nine hundred and so I wouldn't expect him to be on the twenty twenty roster the in either case, but Ford twenty nineteen I think also the ability to have Goodson, as that coverage linebacker might open up Ogle Trie a will more to be a Blitzer, which is one of the places where he can excel. That's one of the places. He's been pretty good at during his career. He has a fairly high pressure rate when he does blitz and that was from last year from his time with the Rams a he was a pretty good Blitzer. So I think if you can get. Goodson, to have more coverage responsibilities. You went Ogle tree blitz a little more. That's going to help with a pass, rush that we don't know what it's going to look like with the edge rushers as a question. So if you allow Ogle tree to wits a little more, and you still have that coverage ability out linebacker. When you have the two of them on the field at the same time, then I think that opens up the defense more in general. Yeah. Definitely. And while we're kind of in that vein why don't we go to your first one s by guy is going to be I don't know, forget to say the, the biggest acquisition. But probably just the most where the giants defense kind of provoke around in that's dust should be peppers and my outlook on what peppers is, is a for this defense to be good in what they want to do. Peppers basically has to be what the giants have been promoting him as and that is. Is like wind and call ins with better coverage. We've talked about this multiple times. I don't see that. I don't think he's better than Landon Collins, even in coverage. If you look something I wrote for review, when really the, the trade, I happened I broke down, what Antoine buffet and what a Gebriel peppers could bring to the defense. And when you look at some of the coverage metrics, call ins and peppers had similar like yards per target allowed and things like that. But when you look to wed to those numbers, you saw a want of when and comments having to make up for what other players on the defense weren't doing uh. So I think that impacted his coverage numbers a lot. And then you saw with Gebriel peppers was just getting beat like one on one in the red zone by tight ends, and that is a problem to me. And I don't think he was. Nearly as good in the other areas of the field that Cullen's was so for this defense to be what it needs to be for the giants to be as happy with the Odell Beckham trade because that has to be part of it. Dubuque peppers was reportedly sticking point in how that trade happened. Dave Gettleman specifically ask for peppers. So if peppers is not the player the giants expect him to be. I think that's going to be a big problem for defense and the team overall. Oh, absolutely. When you make him almost the Lynch, pin of a trade of that magnitude where your parting with. Your best offense of weapon and your best pass rusher. You need. Basically, that one guy that one guy, you ask specifically four to pan out. And for the giants, they need him to pan out, especially in coverage. Just looking at last year. The giants ran one of the highest rates of cover one, which is a man coverage scheme. And the need their box safety to basically holed up in coverage. And sometimes he'll be in coverage on running back sometimes be covered. Tight end sometimes he'll be in coverage on slot receivers. That's why they specifically got peppers, and they need him to step up impact out and really just show. It was that it was Greg Williams who was holding him back. Not that he has been a disappointment as a first round pick. Yeah, I'm peppers has been fine. He's been okay. That's not what the giants traded for. And maybe the giants are. Right. Maybe they are correct that they have projected peppers to be better than what he was in Cleveland. But right now, that is a projection because based on what he has done over his first two years, in Cleveland, a debt, does not match up with what the giants have been selling peppers as and if. He gets there, then good job on the giants for getting him to that place of what they think he can be right now, I don't believe he is that player. So whether he is or not is just going to be such a big part of what this defense is for twenty nineteen for twenty twenty as he ends his, his rookie deal because then you have to start figuring it out down the line there. So I just think Gebriel peppers might be one of probably like the most important defensive player a- just because of the situation, he's in and the situation that brought him to team to begin with definitely. And I'm actually going to skip ahead on my list, a little bit and stay in the defensive secondary or sin the back seven and I'm willing to say, Sean Chandler. You know, under aphid free agent safety last year. He managed to get on the field and he wasn't bad. He wasn't great. He wasn't. He didn't have a rookie season like Andrew Adams head, where it took a position that was. One of concern and just made it. Okay. But for what he was. He was okay. And the giants, do like a safety with a cornerback background, which is what Chandler is. I do wonder little bit, if they don't want Djibril peppers to be kind of a, pseudo linebacker almost like a dome. Buchanan tight player and perhaps move Aleka will throw off of that money back a role in the defense because just thinking back, both James bencher, and Dave Gettleman talked about meeting with peppers as he was coming out of Michigan in the draft that year. The NFL actually had workout at the combine as a linebacker. He chose to stay the extra day workout with the defensive backs which probably scored him a lot of points around the league. But if enough NFL. Valuator viewed him as a linebacker that they had him work out with the linebackers at the combine. I do kind of have to wonder if Gettleman embed. Sure weren't among them. So if Chandler could step up as the box safety gives them, you know, maybe a little bit of that big nickel versatility. That would be good for the defense, and that would also be good for him as a player as well. Yes. And I think that's something we mentioned in our last episode of just in general having hive rate of plays with just a lot of defensive backs on the field, having be three damn Lyman have one Jenkins Beal Baker on the field. Have peppers as pseudo linebacker have buffet deep then have like, old tree and golden as the two on backers on the field or Lorenzo Carter instead of golden like something like that, where you can just have this versatile place. And if you want to take out like love and. Put in a Chandler away, or Michael Thomas. I think that is something that could open up the defense and just give a lot of ability to move all those guys around. I think that's that's going to be a key to the defense. And so someone like Chandler who can potentially be a guy white that who can play that safety role can maybe move up into a nickel little bit, moving those guys around, I think, grant Haley can be in that position Julian wealth can be in that position. So someone like that getting around in just opening up all these possibilities for the giants to deploy personnel. I think that's how the defense become successful in two thousand nineteen and also as you mentioned when the giants acquire him peppers has blitzed a lot even just in his young career he was one of the most blitzed secondary players in the league last year. I believe. And considering just how James Becher wants to call a defense the moves we've seen this year, that definitely could be in the plan going forward. Yes, he was tied with Jamal Adams for the most pass rushes as a safety. He was not nearly as affective as Adams was as Blitzer. But he was sent on a high rate, so that is, again a possibility of what he can do a here. And if you have someone like Chandler step up, and you can have that three safety look, you can move peppers down in the box more, you can send him and then still have to deep guys playing. I think that again, that's just part of this versatility that I think the giants are going to probably play with a lot in the preseason. Probably play with a lot in training camp play with a lot in the beginning of the season to figure out what works and what doesn't because of just the talent on this. Team. Not there's no no stand out guy, so playing this mix and match and giving the offense just no idea. What's going to happen when these guys are on the field? I think that's where the giants could gain their competitive advantage, that might be where they almost have to get their advantages from and with the pass rush. Why don't you finish it off with your guy? Yes. My second guy is just I think the guy who probably needs to step up a little bit showed. Oh, good bit of. Showed flashes last year. And that's Renzo quarter is going to be the second year guy. He was decent rushing, the passer last year. I think he was someone super athletic. And that's something James Becher is going to bet on something he probably hopes to continue to mold. I think one of the things with all of these linebackers and the edge rushers together is quarter. Does have that ability to play that off all why backer a little bit? So maybe you see him in coverage a little more that also could help that, that BJ Goodson Aleco gotree dynamic. If you have quarter who can stay in coverage a little more. But obviously his biggest impact is going to be rushing, the passer, you want to see him develop their little bit more than than he did last year. There were some flashes. He did have some good pass rush steps. You want him to get a little more technique. Just learn to be a pass rusher. It's like we've said about him at Georgia in some of those other Georgia one backers, they're not always fulltime edge rushers. They, they kind of play both roles. So if you are going to have him, be more of a fulltime pass rusher. And he almost has to be if you're looking at the, the depth at the position a which there's a lot of players, but I wouldn't say there's a lot of depth is so you almost have to have someone like quarter really step up and become that dominant player off the edge, or at we just impactful player from consistence NAT to snap basis for the pass rush to really work. Definitely with, with Livia Vernon gone that almost leaves Lorenzo Carter as the guy who has to step up and be that edge one just there a pass rusher who can scare off. Who can beat ofensive tackles who can generate pressure, and really set up the rest of the front seven, I know there's a lot of hope about Marcus golden returning to his twenty sixteen form. But as you mentioned, a lot of the hope about Carter developing is just his raw athleticism. He is a ridiculous athlete for his size and for the edge position in the NFL golden did have a really good twenty sixteen season but he was also playing with Chandler Jones and clays Campbell and that season almost kind of came out of nowhere from him even going back to his time at Missouri. He, he was never a dominant pass rusher coaches, always liked him because of his work ethic. He would out he would try to out work everybody, but just as an athlete at the edge physician, which, again is one of those positions where there is athletic premium, you know, people say they want. Football players not athletes. But at some of these positions definitely edged definitely cornerback not so much the positions where athleticism is typically glorified, like wide receiver or running back, but at those defensive positions, you need to be a premium athlete to have long term success. So that's not to disparage, golden it. All he very well could come back to being a good pass rusher. But at least for the giants in the short term, they're better hope is that Carter really kinda polishes his game learns how to really uses tools, and then he can unleash that athleticism is pass rusher. Right. And the thing is that's a big ask for someone the court who was a third round pick when he was drafted. He was not expected to be this type of player the expectation on him was. Not to be the leader of a pest rush. I mean, the same thing for golden can keep bringing up those twelve and a half sacks. But that's also a big ask for him to come back and be that type of player so you kind of almost have to rely on one of those guys Carter is demoted younger. And so you would kind of hope that is that is the sense there. So he had two hundred forty five pass rush snaps last year. Upper sports info solutions a verse on eighty seven percent of his past naps. He added pressure rate of eight point five seven percent that was third on the team for players with at least one hundred pass rushes career Martin had a better pressure rate, then accorded would be Vernon had significantly better to rate than than Carter did at eleven point eight percent. So you kind of just you hope that's they're a quarter was just slightly better than Connor borrowing who had a. Pressure rate of eight point zero percent on one hundred forty nine pass rushes, so there's there's some room for improvement there, and it's probably going to have to be a massive step up for corner to really be that impact defensive disruptor on, on down to down basis. But that's part, we the position giants have put themselves in at f- going into this season. Really kind of is. It's not a great position hopefully they're likely plan of relying on the blitz to create confusion and scheme that pressure pays off. But you do also wanna have that natural pass rush where you can drop seven coverage and have your four rush beat. The offense is five five-man protection. And if the giants want that to happen, they're going to need Carter to just keep developing. And like just step up yet. And I think all of these things together we've talked about all all these guys on the defensive side of the ball. And you kind of need at least one of them to step up probably to a for this defense to really take a step forward in twenty nineteen. I think we haven't really discussed the offense much because for the most part. Art think the offense is, is what it is. We know what we're going to get from from most of these guys. I don't know how much we can expect these players to step up. Maybe Evan Ingram gets used correctly, which we have brought up so many times. I mean the offensive line. We've just previously talked about with Brennan thorn, it's probably going to be fine. And that's I think, okay, that's probably a big step up from what it was last year. But as we think round this out is going to be the last position. We talk about. And argue we right now I'm thinking this might be the most important position battle on the team. And that is whoever comes out as the number three receiver. I know you wanted to talk about Corey Coleman, Cody Latimer. Those are probably the two favorites to win this spot. I'm not really sure I care who is that number three receiver. But I think the giants just need someone to come out and be that number three receiver and make the giants think they need to have that third receiver on the field. And they did that for a significant amount of snaps a west season. They were. In a leather personnel, which is three receivers one running back one tight end the use that fifty seven percent of the time. So the majority of their staffs, it's six -nificant west bend what they have used into pass. The problem is the past so often from that about seventy three percent of the time. I think the, the biggest thing you want to be good passing the ball from a pass formation. The giants were about average there a west year. So from eleven personnel of the giants average, just sixty five point three percent, completions seven point one eight yards per attempt engines, 0.00 expected points added per attempt, and that is that's not great be average was weak wide zero point zero two giants were a little below average from eleven personnel, and that's not good. When that's something you do the most often the giants had a four hundred thirty nine drug. Bax from eleven personnel. So you want to have a number three receiver who elevates that passing personnel. But I think possibly more importantly, especially the way the giants are set up is to make the giants for we've, they need to have that third wide receiver on the field in general. So they can run from that formation more, there's been so many studies than I've been posting some things on Twitter over the past couple of days of, how running from eleven personnel is good. That's the most effective way to run the ball when you are spreading the defense out forcing the defense to not stack the box. And so there's open lanes. There's more space to run. So the giants last year had only one hundred forty eight attempts. From a eleven personnel they ever zero point zero three expected points added per attempt, so they were better running the ball from eleven personnel. Then they were passing the ball from eleven personnel yet, still. From eleven personnel. Seventy three percent of the time they pass. So this is just some of the tendency breakers, we see the giants should be trying to run the ball, more from this person, no package. And I think having that third receiver on the field. Having someone day feel worthy of being on the field for a majority of the snaps is going to help the running game almost as much as it helps the passing game. And for a team that wants to be established the run, and we can discuss, whether that's what or not if you're going to do that, you want to do it from a personnel package that's going to make that advantageous, and the eleven prison. No package is where that's going to come from. That's a big reason why I kind of focused on core Coleman and Cody Latimer, just of the more or less horde of receivers behind sterling shepherd and golden Tate. Those two guys, probably have the best ability to get. Deep and forced the defense to cover the whole field to defend the whole field. They're both excellent athletes in his draft last core. Coleman had the seventh highest spark score and Latimer, had the fifth highest spark in his draft class. These guys have athleticism to burn yet not just speed, but they have explosiveness they've gotta jewelry. They can do these things, and the giants need to have somebody who gives them. At least the threat of vertical game just to force defenses to respect that and not stack the box every snap. Now I would say I am not opposed to defenses stacking box every snap. If the giants are going to throw the ball. That's kind of the flip side of the coin from what you were saying, which was basically, the Los Angeles Rams offense model where you just go eleven personnel. Ninety nine percent of the time spread the defense out, try to get six-man boxes. And then run the ball with a guy like tiger early or the giants case saquon Barkley who averaged six point seven yards per carry against a six man box that almost makes the running game as efficient as the passing game. However, if the giants. Aren't going to force the defense to defend the whole field and they stack the box. Well, then you just throw because then you've got eight guys close box, which basically leaves three out in space. So if you have a third receiver who can exploit that. Or if the giants say go with, again, change their tendencies with regards to Evan Ingram. And actually use him vertically instead of three and five yard crossing routes, then you can get those explosive plays through the air while the defense is just trying to defend the run. Yeah. That's the thing is no one of the things we've, we've run up is spread to run. And then you can condense to pass. It's something I just shared on Twitter, this past week of going through just twenty eighteen runs by personnel and this is league wide, and this is kind of contrary to what a lot of, of football people expect you think. Adding tight ends to defeat and getting heavier helps you in the run game. But that's not true eleven personnel. They were over just under like sixty seven hundred rushing attempts from eleven personnel Lashio league wide the we average yards. Precarity was four point nine eight zero point zero five EPA per tent. Any positive play percentage of forty seven percent. Switch wide receiver for tight end go to twelve personnel or about twenty six hundred attempts the yards per, Terry goes down to four point three eight the EPA per attempt goes down to negative zero point. Oh, four in the positive play percentage goes down to forty two point six percent. Switch out for another tight end. Do you go to thirteen personnel, which is three tight ends on the field? There were seven hundred fifty six rushing attempts last year, yards per carry goes down to three point two one EP per attempt. Goes down to zero point two two positive play percentage goes down to thirty point seven so the heavier you get the harder. It is to run part of that is you're inviting more defenders into the. Sucks. So like we said, you want death third wide receiver to be good at being a wide receiver. But also just the ability to have that guy on the field and have the defense respect death-row mixed the running game easier. And I do think just at this point, especially the way the giants are set up right now having a good number three receiver is going to be more impactful for the running game than it is going to be for the passing game and it's still going to have an impact on the passing game. But you kind of expect that, but the added benefit to what they're going to do in the run game to put you in the most efficient way to run the ball, which is something we know with the giants want to do, so it just you want to continue seeing that and putting the giants in a war event position to run the ball. And just having the third wide receiver there that like having Pat Shurmur think this guy should be on the field. That's going to be, I think. The biggest impact on the offense. Whether that is Coleman, or Cody Latimer, or whether that's Derry Slayton who just got drafted whether that's Reggie White, who undrafted free agent whoever that is just having a wide receiver who is worthy of being on the field for majority of the place is going to be a big impact for the giants. And I just about says it all, yeah, it does. And we'll see if any of those guys are worthy. There's a possibility that none or the giant remain a heavy in twelve personnel in they're going to continue to run from that. And that probably stunts the run game a little bit. So we have the minicamp coming up and then we're into training camp in July. So we'll continue to see just how all of this evolves. But right now, we can just kind of talk about what the effects could be. So we will be back next week as probably just before minicamp opens, or as minicamp, opens a we'll see exactly what our schedule is going to be next week. We're going to end the show here, you can find this podcast wherever you get your podcast. You can find our work on big, we've, you dot com. You can follow big view on Twitter at big view view on Instagram at big underscore, Blu underscore view. You follow me on? Twitter at damp, is you. You can follow Chris onto it or at Rafter. M K. Hi, thank you for listening. And we will talk to you against.

giants NFL Twitter BJ goodson football Alec Ogle Corey Coleman Cody Latimer Sean Chandler Chris flood Lorenzo Carter Ogle tree Dave Gettleman Courtney Kardashians Antoine Pathy Jimmy Petar Peter Kafka NFC
Physical Agility Tests

Labor Relations Information System

51:27 min | 1 year ago

Physical Agility Tests

"Hello folks welcome to the premium podcast series from the Labor Relations Information System. This is well Aitchison and I'll be your host today as we talk talk about all things physical agility tests. Are they legal They exist in virtually every public public safety agency at least a condition of employment when you are hired in some places they exist as an ongoing job requirement. Why is it that there are a bunch of lawsuits around the country very routinely challenging the legality of physical agility holiday tests? And what are the legal theories that are going to be used and those types of cases. I have two guests today. Both both of them are shareholders in the Ogle tree. Deacons Law for Ogle tree is one of the largest firms in the country that represents management interests in labor and employment issues I'll go train has offices all over the country. We have an oak tree officer in Portland Oregon there in Seattle. There are just all over. The place They have almost nine hundred attorneys at a fascinating tidbit about the firm. Once once a year they actually get all those lawyers together in a room. They have a firm wide meeting. Were training and other stuff off. Goes on It seems to me the complete logistical nightmare. But somehow ogle tree manages to do that. the first of our guests is Ray. Gross Ray is a shareholder in the Detroit. Ogle TRAE office She's been a litigator for over twenty five years she Santa Lv cases at the federal and state level She sampled a number of EEOC cases and cases under title seven. I love the civil rights. Act and she'll tell you how that applies to physical agility test razor a graduate of the University of Miami. Hi It's Jamie or she received her bachelor's degree Magna cum laude And American University's Washington College of Law. She is is where she received her doctor of jurisprudence degree. Sarah Keno is also a principal shareholder in Ogle Ogle tree. She works out of Ogle Tris Tampa and Saint Louis officers offices. Excuse me I neglected to ask her how she manages both Florida Artyom Missouri Interesting Lot of I think frequent flier miles are involved there. Sarah has also been a litigator gator and provides a wide variety of counseling services to employers. She handles cases in the full range of alphabet soup. Super Federal Statutes the EPA The FM L. A. The ADA the ADA Gina and the like she also gets involved in workplace harassment investigations. Sarah's educational background involves receiving a Bachelor's degree from Southern Illinois University in Political Science Suma Comb laude and they her she received her doctor of jurisprudence from from Washington University School of law with that introduction. Let's Talk Physical Agility Tests with Ray and and Sarah Gray and Sarah Welcome to the podcast. Thank you all for sure. They say I got a turned onto. Watch you guys. Were doing by reading an excellent blog. Post under your names about Physical agility tests in fiscal agility. Tests are an issue that I think it's very confused in public safety agencies as to what's legal and not legal before we get into talking about the tasks and what the case lock and tell us on this. I hope you could tell us a little bit about Ogle trees blog post. I've For many years now have found those blog post to be very helpful on a wide variety variety of topics. Why is oak tree doing this? And what sort of feedback are you getting. Thank you for asking. Ogle tree is a national national and International Labor Employment Firm and we have approximately nine hundred attorneys who strive to stay on top of legal developments and we are at the cutting edge of technology where we like to think we are so we regularly post blogs we have our own podcast and we offer webinars and all types of client service facing development to keep our clients abreast. So if any of your listeners have any questions about employment law there's probably something on our blog or we have a podcast on that topic now. Our listeners are slightly more on the Union side than the employer aside although we have a whole bunch of listeners on both sides and I like to direct people to Ogle tris webpage and also there's there's blockposts that come out from a wide variety of employer law firms and the message that I give out is look. This information is good. It's timely and is accurate and basketball. It's free doesn't cost anything to sign up for the blog. I hope I'm not giving away a secret here. Absolutely not it's easy subscribe n- okay now so let's get into physical L. agility tests and and very broadly. The topic that you're post was about and that would be physical agility tests in in in the context of employment discrimination and let's start way up at the ten thousand foot level. Why is it that physical agility detests can raise issues under federal law? What sorts of problems can an employer get into? Yeah I think starting starting as a ten thousand foot level to go back we think about title seven. It's federal law. We usually think of intentional discrimination. meaning that an employer volition makes a decision based on a protected characteristics such as race or gender but titled Seven also protect disparate impact ax claims. So you have the disparate treatment which is intentional and disparate impact which relates to affects a protected group and a high ratio which will get into the eighty percent of the rule of thumb shortly but basically a disparate impact occurs when an employment measures such a physical ability ability or agility test disproportionately affects one group to their detriment so path what we often refer to as shorthand for physical agility tests because of their physical demands it can result in for example. Say More women or people over the age of forty failing the test which can lead to legal challenges kissed let's Let's hone in a little bit on the difference between disparate impact and despair treatment with despair. Treatment you need need to establish your plaintiff in a case you need to establish an improper motive That someone is. The employer is motivated by someone's its presence in a protected class with despair treatment. You can have an employer that is doing something for the best of reasons and yet it it can still be liable. Is that right. Yes that is like that so You know the the the way we see pats challenged typically are in the disparite treatment area spirit impacts of nation requires proof of intent. So that's your. That's what people think of as your traditional discrimination claim that requires showing that that somebody either made some attention discriminatory comments or that you know somebody was subgroups are treated more favorably than others. I those kind of claims don't happen in the testing during lunch. But that's example of a dispirit treatment claim. Testing world would be if you only administered the test to females Nelson not males in the testing. Were on what was Seymour's spirit impact clamps those are Clinton. Don't require proof of intent. That's a claim that's based on what is you seemingly neutral process test. That's given the same way to everybody but has the impact of screening out at a disproportionately high rate a certain group of people. So if you give the test to all the males and all females but a higher percentage than would be expected by chance of the females for fail. The attest that that they went to testing to have to spare intact. Now I think that's a great opportunity to segue into the eighty percent rule rule what disparity impact how to courts measure win a difference in results that breaks down a long protected class lines when it is sufficient to trigger dispirit impact analysis. Sure so the EEOC as well as other enforcement agencies and courts courts have adopted the four fifth or eighty percent rule which we've mentioned a couple of times already. The rule is a non-statistical comparison of selection ratios corrected and non-protected groups of applicants. It's used to determine whether the selection rate for any group is substantially less and substantially actually less in this context is less than eighty percent then the selection rate for the highest group and the case of physical agility test where the pass rate for one girl is less than a percent of the path rate for their most successful group up for adoption of an adverse impact generally arises so if women pass for example example less than eighty percent of the time that men passed the same chest we have a presumption of a disparate impact. Does that get the employs elise over the hurdle of meeting their initial burden of proof in these cases Yeah the I think that of your question. I'm sorry okay no problem so well yes that's true. I mean simply because you know there is an eighty percent. Violation doesn't necessarily mean that employers violated through all but it does as you suggested. Get the plaintiff for playing group of plaintiffs Over the hurdle in terms of their initial showing once. There's a showing that there's violation of evidence of impact. Ferdinand falls on the employer employer to demonstrate that its use of the test is is what we call job related and consistent with business necessity now that I think we're going to talk a little bit more detail but that typically requires a pretty comprehensive validation of the test so begins with job analysis and ends with either a content or criterion invalidation to show that the test. Actually predictive of how well a person will do on the yeah and a we will get to that in a moment before we do. I want to go back to the statistics for a moment. Do you ever see other types of statistical analysis showing up in the assessment of updates paths physical agility test for example. DC use. Oh standard deviations as a substitute for the eighty percent rule girl. Yes you sometimes see that. Typically by the by the defendant or the employer because those kinds of houses tend to be more precise within the eighty percent rule. I'm Sarah said. Eighty percent was really a comparison factor. It's not a true statistical test but I would also cautioned that many many federal court judges will adopt the eighty percent. Rule was sort of their preliminary examination in terms of whether or not the point of group has made their threshold case simply because it is widely accepted and because it is the rule that is most often suggested as being appropriate by the EEOC. And Sarah Lumpy. Follow up with you on something you said a little bit earlier Physical fitness tests have the potential of having a disparate impact. On protected classes. We talked about title seven of Civil Rights Act of a little bit Which protects against discrimination on the basis of you've mentioned saxes one of the protected classes under title seven. I seem to remember some old title. Seven fiscal fitness tests that actually showed a disparate impact on the basis of race. Is that possible as well. I suppose that it is possible. I I think the more recent analysis in the more recent focus are on tests that that have a disparate impact on age and gender but if there was a test develop in a certain way it certainly not precluded that it would have an impact on race. We do see that in the context of other types of pre employment testing and ray might WANNA weigh in on those so. It's but it's outside of physical test. It's more in the cognitive or mental ability test I say And and way talked a little bit about age discrimination. You just mentioned it. Sarah when we're talking age discrimination we're talking about a different federal statute after then title seven correct that is correct the ad a is separate but it follows the same analysis in the EEOC takes the position that a physical agility tests or physical ability test cannot discriminate against people who are over the age of forty. And of course I would assume anytime you're testing for physical agility or physical anything you have the potential of an adverse impact on on the basis of disability status as well right you do but typically it's a little bit harder to establish adverse impact basin at this door the only because there's so much wide variety in terms of what people's disabilities are in how they might impact their ability to take. The test is easy to calculate based on age or gender because those things are sort of you know finite characteristics. Someone either hazard doesn't have for the most part Physical abilities certainly you can have an Ada claim for an individual and you could have an Ada claim for a class individuals. It's just that we see it a little bit less frequently. Because it's a little harder to establish despaired interacting all right And the only time I've actually second at through the only time I've actually seen in my practice actress an Ada issue come up in a fiscal agility tests. Context is where the employer was refusing linked to delay the administration of physical agility test for an employee who had a condition that had a prognosis of it being in potentially resolved so it wasn't a permanent disability. where the individual could never pass the test? I don't think I've actually seen an ADA case anywhere else with physical agility test well that was the what you've described sort of a classic example of a potential Ada kind of situation in a physical agility. What he tested the other might be you know? Depending on what the test was for law enforcement for example there may be different kinds of tests require you perform certain tasks that take AAC both arms. And I have seen instances where somebody who's missing a limb had some alternative means by which they believe they can effectively perform the task. But you know didn't fit expressly into the criteria that were designed for the test and those situations you do have to sort of undertake the same kind of evaluation with the applicant in terms terms of having a you know an interactive dialogue in determining whether or not the person doesn't tact have some alternative means performing the job that would be acceptable. Well let's let's get to the more common cases which are going to be Gender and age. Let's assume you've got our physical fitness. Ask whatever it is. We'll get into the whatever it is in a while but let's say you have a physical agility test And you have an adverse impact and ray you mentioned that at that point the burden of proof swings over to the employer side and the employer has to show that the test is job related and consistent with business necessity. I think of those is really two different concepts that are captured in the the same sentence one is job related mess and the other is business. Necessity is that a correct way of thinking about these things. uh-huh they are. They are both analytically separate but somewhat dependent upon other. So you know the job. Relatedness is typically demonstrated by you having having performed before you started giving the test appropriate validation of the test and validation almost always begins with a good salad job now so says the fundamental dental building block of any validation and that that means that a professional has come in and you know examined the jobs in question determine what the key requirements physical requirements of. Those jobs are the frequency the duration and all sorts of factors that go into determining what the sort of bottom line essential elements physical elements of the job are are the businesses acidy. Point also comes into play in terms of your obligations under the uniform guidelines for employees selections. Those are the EEOC. Is this kind of rules for how you validate a task uniform guidelines suggest that in addition to doing your basic validation work it's incumbent upon you to take a look at whether or not if there's some other way to appropriately predict whether somebody can do the job that would have a less adverse impact so you've got sort of a two stage process. You have to demonstrate demonstrate that your test does truly tasks required for the job and passing. Your test gives me and then a person's more likely to be able to do the job but also that you've taken the time the valuate whether or not there's some you know alternative tests or some alternative measure that would have less adverse impact on women are older people that would be equally active active. And if there's not then you find now let's take the first of those the job related and ray you just mentioned a word sounds very simple but actually is fairly complicated in the context of physical agility tests and the word was validation. What does that mean to the EEOC and two lawyers who handle these sorts of cases? Well right well it is very complicated And you can mean a couple of different things but the basic framework that you turn to if you were trying to appropriately validate a job and then legally defensible way would be a uniform guidelines during the election that the C provide and four for physical abilities tasks. There's basically two kinds of ways that you would validate at one is called content validation and the other is called criterion validation content validation. Pretty much what it sounds like. It's it's establishing through this year he was professionally done. Job Analysis and comparisons that the content of your test is substantially similar to the content of the key physical crime Armijo job so in simplistic terms. If you were hiring people to be you know baggage handlers and they have to lift fifty town pieces of luggage or your cartons. You know all day long and you give them. A castle requires them to demonstrate their ability. Live fifty thousand. There's somewhat consecutive basis over a short period of time. That's pretty much content validation. You demonstrated that the content test is similar to the job by comparison. If if you're giving people a test that is more testing they're in a physical strain so if you're hooking them up to a you know an ice. Oh kinetic sort of machine kind of like gym equipment. That's going to measure what their upper body strength is. And from that calculate whether or not they can do your job that kind of has to be criterion validated. You have to show all that people who can pass that test ultimately based on their performance on the job do a better job in actually performing the tasks and and Ray just continuing along that theme if you were say a fire department or a law enforcement Horseman Agency and he wanted to go through the process of validating your physical fitness test and in particular You wanted to to use a content validation for your test. What would be the process that you would go through? Who would you try to hire contract with? Who could help you out with what sounds to be a fairly potentially complicated system? Well there are there. There are a lot of vendors out there that will provide these services. This is I would say as in most things in life very much. You get what you pay for sort of experience though. Oh so you you need to be careful about you. Know buying sort of off the shelf things that are touted as being validated but are being sold by people. That don't really have any knowledge or experience of what you're particular jobs are if you WANNA do it the right way you're gonNA hire a professional who will come in and we'll send in personnel typically people that haven't an organ kind of background background Sometime safety as well. We'll come in and they will actually identify a subset. If you're incumbent employees do the job is she wanNA test ask for and they'll observe those people. They'll monitor them. They'll look any kind of written instructions. Protocols Safety Rules that they have to follow they'll a measure you know literally the weights and and distances that they have to walk or carry things They'll talk to the individuals themselves and kind of run through through with them what they believe the key requirements job are and then we'll take all of that information and survey back up to you in the form of. Here's what we believe the key requirements. The job are. Here's here's what the proposed test is and then they'll go back and administer the test of the incompetent and see if it does in fact according to the incumbent adequately and satisfactorily mimic what gets it's GonNa job so they actually get feedback from the incumbents in the jobs. The existing firefighters police officers will say yes. No I know this is our reaction to the test and then I would assume they might modify the tests according to that feedback typical. Yes I mean. If it's if it's somebody who is following the process switch supposed to be done they will just according to the feedback. They will also make sure that they kind of evaluate for outliers. So if you know twenty of the incumbents also yes he asked one says No. They'll go through it. You know an analysis whereby they'll deem that to be an outlet or response that sort of thing all right and is the process very much the same for criterion validation The beginning stages of the process are the same criterion allegation unlike content requires you to ultimately show so that there's a relationship between the results on the test and performance on the So you ultimately have to either administer the test to the population and then measure whether or not the people score better on the test are actually shown to do better on the job. Sometimes the the measurement of job success is is evaluated in terms of injury rates so a lot of employers will implement thinking it's going to reduce their injury rates. You know that certainly certainly is possible to do. But it's a little bit harder to defend sometimes Typically what the government at least will be looking forward if they're coming after you WANNA test is some some showing that if you score better on the test that it demonstrated based on your you know whatever kind of job criteria you can pull either performance ratings or attendance or injury rates or some combination of all of those three things that people who score high on test. Get the job And Sarah let me turn to you for just a moment the underlying problem here which we haven't talked about it all. Is that unless you are using. I'm saying age and gender graded standards which will come back to because irs benefit cases on that but unless you're using age gender grade it standards these tests in the public safety world are going to have an adverse impact both on the basis of gender and age. And I'm in one of those protected classes. I suspect you guys are in the at least one of the others right up. It's okay welcome to the club. And and so this is a real possibility that you'll end up with a finding Alvan adverse impact which means that you're going to have to go through the process of showing that you've got a job related test. What's what's your reaction to that sir? I think that's exactly right. And the sense of we need to go back to job related and consistent with business excessively and and what are the ties to it and so to establish at its job related. Are we using the content validation or the criterion validation. And how did when we come up with these measures. Is it a job task simulation were. Are we doing the isokinetic tests when in making some extrapolation and I think oftentimes often times when we advise on these situations we just WanNa make sure that we're doing it thoughtfully and not making a test harder than it needs to be and that if it is that we're monitoring drinker disparate impact and it's something is occurring that we're doing affirmative and thinking proactive. Taking affirmative measures being proactive in trying to minimize any risk and making sure that we continue to monitor Kurt as we continue to do the test. Because maybe the job has is going to change. We'll change in the future and if that happens in we can modify the tests and we certainly want to do so and as we'll post the uniform guidelines ends on our website along with his podcast people can see them. You've raised a point that the guidelines make that I think is really important simply because you've established a physical fitness test once upon a time doesn't mean you need to stop monitoring what's going on at potentially adjusted the task right. That's exactly right. Especially as technology continues to develop and we are able to outsource talk or make things more and more efficient. We want to make sure that our test doesn't get outdated and whether that's the yearly or quarterly quarterly. Or you know every few year checkup. It really depends on the nature of the industry and how quickly the job is changing. But we don't want to let our analysis in our tests get stale and I can remember once upon a time when using we used to call them body tap tests. I think they're now called body composition test and I'm sure you guys are familiar with it either might involve pinching A portion of whoever they employees abdomen is or you might actually put them in a bit of a dunk tank to measure sure their body composition. Those were thought of as being the latest greatest ways to test physical fitness. You almost never see them now. And I think that's because missile this monitoring that's going on. Yeah in rain and I briefly discuss those tests and not something that we see regularly. Yeah as you mentioned and it was. I think to be hard to show how that might be job related and consistent goodness accessories but as a non sequitur. My husband is military three and he had to take tests once upon a time he. He hasn't wrestling but I suspect that the military might still use them. Yes he s I don I actually think they do. And it gives rise to a whole body of cases where you have people who have a body fat percentage. That's actually really what they're testing for that is above whatever the threshold is who are some of the most incredible physical human beings physically fit human beings. You would ever see. See that pose a real dilemma for employers in these situations. Well let's talk about. Let's now get into Nia actual types of physical agility test. We see in public safety. And I've seen what I think of as five broad categories gory of these tests. We've already talked about WanNa away And that's jaap tasks simulation tests We see these used in many fire departments around the country where you see firefighters who are climbing a ladder and Dragging a dead weight and things like that and we see them used less and law enforcement. Law Enforcement tends to use other types of test my general view of these seizes assuming the employer don it's homework. You rarely see challenges to job simulation tests or at least you don't let's see them with the frequency that you see challenges to other types of tests. Do you have radio at the same assessment generally. I think that's true I think it's probably because it at least from a purely you know kind of objective observer standpoint. They tend to look like they have basic what we recall face for today. I mean if if a firefighter has to you know carry a body a ladder. Then ask him to do that. As part of a test to get the job seems inherently sort of appropriate where they do get challenged. Sometimes is if you over talk so you know if you create a task simulation test that it includes tasks that are rarely if ever done or you know can be shared tasks that don't necessarily have to be done by one person or another That's where you can get in trouble a little bit. Because it's usually you know usually those gender-based sort of actions where you know women. Applicants are going to contend that he made the test harder than it had to be even though it was simulating the job. That you're waits for two high where you're required time speeds more than they actually have to be on job and I my favorite case here with respect to these sorts of job tasks simulation nation test. Actually Anna wasn't they did a little bit of the job simulation but they did a a bunch of other non aerobic tests like push ups and setups is a case. And we'll post the decision on our website as well involving the city of Erie and the description that I've given of it in my seminars and I confess. Facet is a slightly accurate inaccurate description and I use the inaccuracy to make a point. was that what the city of Erie Ed Pennsylvania did with its police department wants when I was trying to come up with. A physical fitness test is at sap three guys down in a room. Three police officers down in the room. At least one of whom was a swat officer and they said okay now. Let's come up with a physical fitness test and one of them said how `Bout pushups and another one said. Yeah let's use push ups. How many and the third one said let's use seventeen in a minute China? And that's the way they came up with a physical fitness test and that resulted in a consent decree against the the the city of Erie and the reason. Listen I use that in. Accuracy is to make the point to the people who are in attendance at the seminars. That if you're going to use Anne any sorts of tests job and were now talking in the context of job tasks simulating does is got to be what people actually do on the job op has got to be relevant to it and it can't be something that only supergirl are. Superman can do on the job. Sounds like if you're in a court on that right yes absolutely the test that you described it doesn't surprise me that they resulted in a consent decree because I mean reasons. It's not you know remotely following the sort of rigor this required both by the uniform guidelines then even just by general basic you know sort of testing protocol in the industry three but it's also not it's not a content related test. The fact that you can do twenty push ups may or may not mean that you have the appropriate agility to do the job so there's no direct correlation without a whole lot of science between whether or not somebody can do twenty push ups and whether or not they can do the full panoply of physical requirements requirements for firefighters. Yeah you'd have to go the criterion validation route and that would be really difficult to establish the seconds broad type of tests are falling a little bit out of favor not a little bit. They're actually falling out of favor. But I am actually shocked at how many in particular police departments still use them and these are age and gender intergrated aerobic fitness tests. And just a little bit of history. Then I'm going to a battered over to use era to give you a warning that the questions coming through you These tests started getting a great deal of play in the public safety world. with with the publication of a book called the Aerobics Way By a I forget. What kind of doctor was down in Texas Ah His name was Ken Cooper and he ended up creating this series of matrices That measured fiscal that sense. So you'd have one matrix that was for a male another that was for a female and then each of them would be broken down in ten year ear timeframes so and there were four possible aerobic tests that you do. The usual one was people would run run a mile and a half but then there would be the aerobic equivalents for cycling and walking and swimming and as you got older older as you move from one bracket to the other. You're passing score what Went up didn't become more difficult. Bassett tests become easier to pass the test. When you get to my age bracket I think you can run a mile and a half and eighteen minutes and you would pass? Where if you were in your twenties you'd have to run a mile and a half and about twelve minutes or thirteen minutes? and the standards for females was lesser than the standards for males. Now how to coach and look at those sorts of tests. How were they fairing out there? In the wheat real world of litigation. I would say these. These are the types of tests that we don't see much of any more in terms of having a sliding scale because again the analysis goes back to is it job related and consistent consistent with business necessity if you're having different standards for different people you should really be testing to the lowest common denominator for everyone on because that's going that's what you need to actually perform the job and if you don't need to run a mile and fifteen minutes we shouldn't be making certain certain groups do that and still the bigger picture is is having a disparate impact. And that's what we focused on. The test isn't actually actually having a disparate impact because of the sliding scale did it could be a non issue just big picture. What are the goals? And why are we implementing this test and have we. We actually connected to performance on the job. Yes to add wiltord. Sarah said it's not I mean gendron. Warming is still somewhat somewhat still unsettled area of the law. As I think you know some of the case law would suggest it's typically used by the federal government has used it in the past breath but it's counterintuitive to the idea of validating basic physical abilities test. I mean if you're trying to demonstrate that being able to run run a certain distance in a certain period of time is the minimum basic requirements for job. It doesn't make any sense that you would allow you would require you know men to run on the one point five mile run in twelve minutes but women in fourteen minutes and older people in seventeen minutes. The only argument for doing it is if for for some reason the actual performance of the job also has what we would call sort of bona fide occupy. Patient qualification so if you you know are running a particular Taylor like in the military. For example there are certain in some cases task. The team just don't perform I mean if if you're in that sort of situation and you have a bona fide reason why certain attach your only performed by certain people you might be able to normal that results but otherwise it's a little bit at least in our worlds a little bit counterintuitive to the whole idea behind tests days. I'll tell you I wouldn't WanNa be an employer. Having to defend against a business necessity argument I wouldn't want to be an employer. They had one standard for one group of people where they passed it. They could be police officer or a firefighter and yet I would have a higher standard for any other group of people particularly if those groups are different based upon their age or their gender. I that's like a starting in last place in a hundred yard dash heard for a world of trouble. Yeah I either. I think that you know the historical rationale or thought process behind. It was that you know if you have a historically all male police force and you are trying to you know diversify the representation of female officers and your force that somehow gender norm is is a way to sort of you know even the playing field and give them a leg up as well intentioned as it may be. It's just a little bit counterintuitive to how you demonstrate that the test itself is really testing what's required for the job and and of course Sarah. I'm going to go back to you on this. You mentioned earlier. There's also the question about whether a mile and a half run is job opera-related for either a police officer firefighter made arguably not arguably I've represented police and fire my whole career and I can tell you with a great deal of assurance that virtually no police officer or firefighter runs a mile and a half or anything close to it on on the job would would not a something that would involve a long aerobics tasks like that. I would not that pose some job. Relatedness Issues I. I think it would especially as you say because they're not doing it on a regular basis and if there were some way to validate that they're aerobic fitness correlates to the rest of their performance on the job they renting after interest suspect or peering a fire hose. If you can establish that through a good validation study maybe we get there but on its face I agree with with us. It seems problematic because as a police officer or a firefighter. You probably not running a mile and a half on a regular basis and it doesn't seem to have an apparent or easy intuitive connection to the ability to do the job now some public safety agencies and in fact the Cooper Institute itself have moved away from these age graded and gender graded aerobics tasks but they continue to use aerobic tests. But they'll use a single standard rather than one that is normal for either age or gender that would raise I would think a The disparate impact problem again right. Yeah it could it. Oh sorry go ahead right now I just. It's you know you in that case you. You have the combination of you know. You are now probably appropriately not gender or age warming but you're applying a test that is much harder to demonstrate the the business business and job related and stuff if it's if it's truly just an aerobics test because you what you're lacking is is sort of you know science behind connecting. How many push chops are politics to do or how far you run or how fast you can run between that and the job requirements and then we have another set out of agencies that use either in whole or in part on non aerobics tests and the standards? Here that you see. All the time are are push ups and sit ups and it may be some sort of a wake resistance work whatever it might be Once again you're going to see a disparate impact there I would assume and you have to be very cautious using those tests. Is that right. Yes we're going to run into the same concerns that we see in the aerobic context if we cannot establish the job related consistent with business DECEC- rationale the tests are going to face the same challenges. There's a physical fitness plan. If you can call it. That has gotten an awful lot of play in the news. And the last three four weeks that it's been out and this was one from the Texas Department of Public Safety And what the plan is or the requirement is. Is that all of the troopers. Who worked for the department? A public safety are going to have to meet a waistline measure You can't have a waistline that has more than forty inches if you are a woman or thirty five inches for a man a man and if you don't pass that waistline measure you potentially could be subject object to termination. I you know once upon a time I saw waistline measures of physical fitness but honestly I haven't seen it in decades. I was completely shocked when I saw this I was astounded that There were different standards standards for women than men. I WANNA why it is. Women can have forty inch waist. Lines man can only have thirty five inch waist lines I'm kind of curious as is to where they came up with those numbers from but mostly when I read the stories I thought I could feel out there in ether somewhere. A collective active shudder among defense side employment lawyers like the two of you thanking. Oh my goodness what are they doing. I am assuming and correct me if I'm wrong on this and and raise bat this one to you I I am assuming that a standard like that to the I mean first of all it has a it's actual despair treatment where you're treating men and women Emma differently than a standard like that would have to meet all of the testing requirements that we have been talking about the last half hour For the most part yes I mean the you know if if you look at the uniform guidelines they technically apply to you know test and other selection procedures which which are used as the basis for any employment division so selection procedures all encompassing definition that includes all kinds of things and certainly it could include a waistline measurement And just you know I've I've read the press two so I don't I mean I know that you know there's claim that there's some sort of science behind the waistline measurement and your physical fitness for doing the the job but I'm not privy to what that might be It seems to me like it might be hard to establish but you know certainly I think the you know as you suggest that they may be in for a fight in terms of defending that particular requirement. Both the fact that it's different for men and women in whether or not it's job related at all. Frankly yeah I say there's already been one lawsuit filed over that so we'll stay tuned. I if if Texas is going to stick with that that'll make its way through the court system. Pretty guaranteed now one last question for you sometimes Almost always in a public safety agency see a physical agility test as a standard for hire. You don't too often see physical agility test us as a standard for continuing employment so you you have to pass. It wants to get the job and then you don't ever have to pass it again. That's probably the case in. I don't know if I had to do a broad rule of thumb two-thirds of public safety agencies but in the others you do see some continuing conditions of employment of passing these sorts of tests. And then there's another set of agencies where it's not a condition of employment but instead it is an incentive plan and I confessed to having bargains Arkansas several of these on behalf of my clients where if you pass the test you get more money five percent ten percent. Whatever it might be is the fact that you're only using the test or an incentive plan anti sort the head against any liability under title seven or the Ada? I would know Ya. Yeah so right. Why don't you? You're too nice. Yeah title pretty clear. That can't discriminate in the terms and conditions of employment and an incentive plan to gain extra money if the term condition of employment in rail if you elaborate story on what you were thinking as well now that was that was pretty much it. I mean it's not you know the. The prohibition is on discriminating in any kind of condition of employment so bonuses would be included it also would you know I mean maybe there's a basis for it but if everyone is performing the minimum requirements for the job. The fact that you are more physically fit in your performance of that requirement doesn't intuitively total you to a greater bonus. I wouldn't think yeah at the way. I've always sort of analogize. This when the issue has come up is to say. Can you pay somebody more. Because they're a woman or a man or because they're Hispanic or Asian or Caucasian or African American. But if he can't do that you can't pay them more if they pass a physical fitness incentive plan that has an adverse impact on any of those conditions and and I don't I wouldn't negotiated them so maybe you have more insight into this than we do but I would tend to imagine that the thought process behind that is that you know if you incentivize people to become more physically fit than it is likely to reduce your overall injury workers comp absenteeism rate because you have any more physically fit workforce and again may as well intentioned as that might be working through the the defensibility of a task that may have spared impact. PUCCI break back in the same situation that we've been talking about you know all through today's discussion. which is that? You got to demonstrate job relatedness businesses and I completely agree with you that that's the motivation And sort of the added motivation. The someone who is physically fit is you're going to have less health insurance claims and they'll be generally more capable of doing their job. The problem is I've never seen that quantified. And then you run into the job relatedness business necessity problems. Well I I want to take this moment to thank both of you Sarah and Rafer your the time and speaking with me about this issue I hope we've unraveled some of the mysteries of the legal implications of physical agility tests and I want to thank you again for being a very generous in the run-up to this podcast and and speaking with me and I much appreciate it at folks of that's it for another premium neom edition of the Labor Relations Information Systems. PODCAST series We hope to have you join us when we once again talk about at an issue. That's of importance in public safety labor. World this is well aitchison signing off.

Sarah EEOC Ogle tree Ray officer Labor Relations Information Sy Texas University of Miami Ogle Ogle And American University basketball Florida Aitchison Sarah Keno Washington University School o Portland
The Chris and Joe Show Offseason Mailbag: Centers, More Draft Day Trades, and more

Big Blue View

29:39 min | 1 year ago

The Chris and Joe Show Offseason Mailbag: Centers, More Draft Day Trades, and more

"Are you troubled by strange. Hockey trades in the middle of the night do you experienced feelings of dread about. NHL Free Agency have you or your family ever seen it New York rylander scheme. If the answer is yes. Don't wait another minute. Pick up your mobile device and subscribe to Lighthouse Hockey podcasts. From espy nation today are courteous and efficient hosts Are Ready to serve. All of your islander needs and worries lighthouse hockey podcasts for New York islanders fans. Welcome back to the Chris Joe show presentative. ISP nation and big move you. I'm Joe. Delia joined by Chris. Flung as always and we are bringing you the second edition of the mailbags show. I show went pretty well but now this time we got out a ton of questions from listeners on facebook instagram through the various mediums. We've been requesting people to send us our questions and sadly we. We were not able to take all of the questions just because there were so many of them. There were some overlapping questions as well but still a lot of amazing questions that we're going to be hitting on today and addressing your thoughts on the offseason regarding free agency various free agents possibilities for dealing with position issues and also oh upcoming draft prospects that you should be paying attention to. Why don't we swing right on into this bad boy and we had the first question from Brian? Hyman and he's asking giants management enjoyment insider trading. Few it's high priced assets Sterling Shepard. Evan Ingram Alec Trie and if not possible release elise. These players after all giants need additional money to be active signing impact players to upgrade our offense of line linebacker defensive line and and secondary plus it is important to add additional draft picks so question that a little bit of insight from him. They're the key thing here is that yes. They're probably going to be making some moves and I think think that the the the bigger player to be paying attention to the ones that he mentioned his Alec Ogle Tree Because if day choose that he's not really the guy that they wanted their Mike linebacker or it might benefit them to to cut him and move on and then we also spoke about potentially cutting ellison who is a bit of extra baggage and unnecessary money. That they don't really need to be paying for a backup tight end when they have cadence. Smith Yeah I do believe Algal Tree could would be a potential cap casualty. His dead money isn't all that bad over the next two years. It's three and a half million this year. One one point seven five next year but he is in eleven just under twelve million dollar cap hit this year end and just under a eleven million dollars cap it next year so I think he definitely could be a cap casualty. We've mentioned and read. Ellison I do not expect the to trade sterling shepherd. We have heard the didn't sign him to trade him sterling shepherd. It is a good reliable player. He's a guy that giants light and he's a guy who really figures pretty heavily in their offense. He's their best receiver for for a while. Now I have said I wouldn't be surprised if the giants traded Evan Ingram. Just because he doesn't really fit the the philosophic mold of Dave Gettleman team I could see him potentially being dealt to a New England order a team that really has a use for a hybrid tight end. I don't want to see it happen because I really do. Believe that. Ingram can be a match gotcha nightmare. I use that term a lot. But it's just the only way to describe what he could be what he should be. It's the thing that I could conceivably see happen in but I just do not want to see it happen. There were murmurs regarding Evan. Ingram possibly getting traded around the deadline not a ton of traction resulted resulted from that and he didn't end up getting moved but that doesn't mean that that traction couldn't pick up again if the giants decide and say hey he's not really performing and playing as much as we hope he can. I think it's a little too soon to pull the plug on him and I think if there are going to pull the plug they're gonNA at least wait and see if they can get a full year out of him for once in actually get a full sixteen game season from their first round tight end. I I really don't see moving on from Ingram but I think the big one pay attention to is Alec Ogle Tree they got rid of the other player midseason. That was taking up a huge amount of their salary cap which generis Jenkins for disciplinary reasons. Because he did something inappropriate on twitter the last player. I'm sure that other people are wondering about his shoulder in albeit that he's taking a ton of money at his position of left tackle and he's not really performing up to that contract. I don't think that they're gonNA try move on from him. They're definitely not gonNA cut him. Maybe if they have have a good trade partner for him and they can get some decent picks or assets or or young players in return for soldier. They'll make the trade but I don't think there's going to be a huge market for him. I don't think a lot of teams are going to be desperate to overpay a left tackle. That's not doing that well. And also if you look at in the sense of if you're trying to build around this as young quarterback even if solar hasn't been perfect he still better than the alternative of having somebody else that's not as good step in and there's not really a lot of left tackles that they can bring in. They obviously could draft one. But still. There's a bit of an imbalance in the offensive line. They're probably going to see how how much they can get out of that contract with nate solder before they really do anything with him yell. I don't see soldier getting traded. Just get he's thirty one years old. He's his cap. It this year and next year is nineteen point. Five million and twenty point five million so that isn't really a tradable contract. His dead cap this if he was cut is thirteen million and then six point five million billion in twenty twenty one I I think solar is just barring a retirement or something like that. He's just going to be here. So the giants are it probably just going to have to look to reinforce the rest of their offensive line. The center position right tackle that sort of thing next question from Alex Polski if we draft raft. Isaiah Simmons which I fully endorse if you follow me on twitter. If you don't go follow me. What would his primary NFL position be? I would guess inside linebacker but obviously this dude can play almost anywhere. Well first of all I think he's more of an outside linebacker than he is an inside linebacker but the thing with Isaiah Zia Simmons and modern. NFL defenses is that he is the most diverse linebacker. We've seen in a long time. When Shack Jack Thompson was coming out of Washington? People were talking about how the fact that he he plays like a safety but he could also play outside linebacker and that works really well in modern defenses because they're mostly circle and dime packages. You don't need to sub anyone out you don't need to take your life back out because you can linebacker out because you can leave. Shock Thomson in there but right now you can do that with Isaiah Simmons in almost to even more of an extreme extent because he can cover receivers in the slot. Play outside linebacker you can blitz him in rush the passer with with him. He is that talented of a of a player. He's done so many different things and he was formerly a safety. So I don't think you can really put a label on him. He's just in a defensive weapon. That's the best possible you can say. It's what your bro Peppers would be if he was taller and bigger in the same size as Simmons. Yeah that that pretty much it is it. His primary position is defense. Just leave it at that. Maybe if the giants look a little bit more towards some college concept's Sap's I might. I might say he could be something like the flex safety in a three three three alignment which is what Iowa state plays basically basically. It's like a middle of the field safety but he also does linebacker duties and basically his job is to be a defense offensive eraser and I think that would fitzsimmons. Because that basically is what he was for Clemson he is just a defensive eraser what hybrid players can do on offense and create. Mismatches is what Simmons can do on defense and I'm right there with you. If the giants select him at four. I would not be upset at all. I think. Another comparison for him is like the linebacker version of derwin James. I'm I'm so glad that this question was brought up and I'm going to continue to push this agenda that the giants need to take Isaiah. Simmons I think that if they take him he would be such an amazing asset for this defense because he is so diverse in his capabilities in his skills he would be a monster for any. NFL Defense in his capabilities. What he's able to do watching him during the College Football playoff against the most talented players in college football was just Ms Berhe mesmerizing to see what he was capable of doing? I remember watching him just moving from place to place pre snap and then I watched him go all the way outside to cover a receiver at cornerback position and I was. I was thinking to myself. Do they trust him that much to do stuff like that. So just seeing how capable he is of doing multiple different things at a high level. It's exciting and I would not rule him him out at that. Fourth overall pick. I don't know about you Chris. But even though he's a linebacker he could fit very nicely as the fourth overall pick for the giants. Yeah he is just so oh diverse versatile in what he can do he. I've I've seen him described as a Unicorn few times end. Maybe that's what his position should be named. Just the Unicorn position because he can do pretty much everything but play defensive tackle and even even then maybe you get a white vest or something Make him a little bit heavier so he doesn't get pushed around. Maybe he could do that to assuming the right. Defensive Coordinator gets a hold of him he just brings so much to a defense gives them so many options so such a broad ability to create an disguise pressures in coverages. That you know he he would be right there with during James. Tevin Coleman woman before Tom Smith before he stepped away from the game. Maybe what Brian Urlacher would have been. If if he hadn't if he played in the late teens if if Ryan or lacquer had been coming out today he would probably w what Isaiah sentences onto the next question and this one is from the underscore better underscore me underscore eleven from instagram. And he's asking. What are we going to do at center? If in the draft is the answer then how early do draft one well in this this question it needs to be addressed and when we get to the office of line which is up next in our positional previews for the off season. It's worth addressing that there really are not allowed a lot of options at center the best available name that we hand picked was Brett Jones from Minnesota who is previously with the giants. So I I really don't see any any free agents that draw my attention now. We're talking about the top quality centers. One that's probably going to be out of the reach of the giants just because he's going to be taken. The later end of the first round is tyler by data from Wisconsin. Probably just butchered that Chris's the correct pronunciation terrible pronouncing names here. But he is considered to be a late first-round guy. He'll probably move up a little bit. We've seen that happen with centers and Interior Offensive Lineman. I'm in just because of the need of them. But he probably won't be there for the giants unless they trade backing and they pick up some extra picks besides that Nick Harris from Washington could be in that second round range. There are some quality decent quality centers in this year's draft class. So they could take someone. In the first two rounds develop them and continue to round round out that offensive line because I do stand by the fact that John is really not the answer at center. Yeah and neither is Poli really and it's Taylor Damn it's like it's like shefty. Don't look at it to know how it's pronounced. There are a few mid round guys. Well Yo VIATA NEUA cares. They're probably the top two guys. They're very different centers and I think if the the giants were to draft one it would depend on what kind of blocking scheme they want to run. probably a more classic salaries a bigger more powerful guy. Harris is more compact. I think he's like six to right around three hundred pounds. He's more of an athletic lettings zone center but he is also really good loyd cushioned very I he will be playing in the senior bowl. That was just confirmed while we start. Just just after. We started recording so that will be something to watch and sees ruis at of Michigan. He's a he's a big dude. I think he listed like six four three twenty so that would probably appeal to Dave gettleman especially if they wanNA stick with a more power running attack there definitely are options and I think the giant should make exploring those options priority because other than the quarterback. The center is the only guy who handles the ball every snap and that really does make him one of the most important players on the field. Fielding the center is the Guy who calls protections he decides where the double team is going to go a lot of times the centers responsible for working up to the second level in that can really be really play a large part in good plays turning it into great place. So it's something to giants really do have to address. They cannot continue to scratch and dent been for their center. Units worth acknowledging that there's a strong likelihood would of if they do take a rookie center and bring him in in development. It's GonNa take a little bit for them to adjust just because it's a little bit more complicated of a position and also as an offensive offensive lineman. It's it's hard to really make to make that transition right away especially as amid round pick so if they do take someone. You got a little bit patient. I'm sure they will develop an in turn out to the right guy but we'll have to see what what they ended up doing about that. We got three more questions to hit for you but before we do that or you think of very short commercial break I'm Jillian Weinberger. Who's the impact a podcast from? Vox about how powerful people affect the rest of us this season. We're looking at the big ideas. It's from all the people running for president. In twenty twenty hip this opioid crisis head on public option. move away from fuel to energy efficiency. And it's GonNa be a great Great Wall and it's going to work. A lot of those ideas have actually been tried before like that. Wall trump wants to build the Gal Arizona has had one on its border for are decades. I don't understand why individual people have a right to have a fence and yet a country can't Senator Warren's proposal to end the OPIOID crisis it's based on what we did to fight the AIDS epidemic. We would like to name it the Ryan White Care Act and the green new deal. Germany tried something similar in two thousand. This is solution this season on the impact. We have those stories. How the big ideas? He is from twenty twenty candidates worked or didn't work in other places or at other times. These are the stories that will help us understand what might happen if these proposals get rolled out here in the next four years. Subscribe to the impact on Apple. PODCAST or your favorite podcast APP to get new episodes custodes now. I'm songwriter. Charlie harding and I'm musicologist. I just need Sloan or the host of switched on pop a podcast about the making and meaning of popular music every week. Charlie I break down the most interesting hits trends and artist artist understand what they're doing what they're saying and why the songs are so infectious. We've recently broken down. Billy eyelashes music with her brother and Collaborator Finian's dissecting chance the rapper with super producer Oak felder and covered everything from Dolly Parton. T Travis. Scott if you love music you're going to discover something. You're your opening in switched on pop so join US search for switched on pop in your favorite podcast APP and listen to an episode about your artist and subscribe for free on Apple Podcasts podcasts. spotify or wherever you're listening to get new music explainers every week and after listening you might want to check out. Our new book switched on Pop. How Popular Music Works and why it matters at your favorite bookseller thanks to our next question from zero underscore given in his question is do you think this defense can make improvements without adding a big player in the secondary? And I'm GonNa say say certainly I think that there's a lot of young players on or in that Secondary Position Group of corner and safety that if if they continue to develop and work with them they could take a huge step forward and also with Patrick Graham if if he can scheme properly those players they have and if they work with their strengths and try to use it to their advantage. I think the secondary can be very very good. It was super young last year and and I think that any young secondary is GONNA struggle. If it's young across the board. They got out what I would consider to be the Mental weak link engineers Jenkins because because I thought the whole season. I thought that he was a a cancer spot for them because of of the the remarks having after games and the things he was doing I didn't think that he was is really a good person to have in the locker room in in that in that defensive back meeting room now that he's gone and it's all young and they all have the opportunity to play with Jillian. Love the Andre Baker Sam Bill Corey Bounce all those guys. Julius peppers. I think that that position position group could end up being very very good for the giants. I'm going to sidestep this question ever so slightly in say yes by getting by getting themselves a good edge in free agency getting themselves a good pass rusher we know that having a good pass rush really does help the secondary out. I'm not sure I expect all the giants young corners is to take a leap all at once but it would definitely make their lives a whole lot easier if they could get if the giants could get a pass. Rusher who can really force offense is to scheme and move protections end create consistent disruption in the backfield force quarterbacks to either have to get the ball out more quickly or forced them into mistakes. The giants really did have a dilemma on defense last year. In that they struggled they struggled a lot to get consistent pressure with just a four man rush. But then if you're going to blitz that puts even more stress more strain on your secondary and that just exposed all of the young guys to having to do more with less so I think if we say if we put the limit on it without adding any players like a highly Jeffrey Khuda or going after a a Byron Jones or a safety safety in free agency that I think best way to help the secondary is to improve the giants pass rush these final two questions. We have are related needed to potential trades during the draft. I one from Corey. Coli Ke- ritual in their question is what are your thoughts on potential trade up up in the draft to get chase young. I'm gonNA keep this simple. I don't think that chase young chasing is obviously very very talented and he can be an elite pass. Rusher and Chris you spoke took a ton about how important it is to get that pass rusher but I don't think that you should really be trading up to take someone other than a quarterback. I understand that he's super super talented. But if you are really really think he's the guy maybe you do it but I think that that would put the giants in a very bad position if they if they lost more picks an draft capital or or young players. If they were trying to make that move just to get one guy this team that has a lot of holes you take someone. That's super duper talented earlier. On and trade up to get him do you correct and fill those other needs. I think that every need on this giants team is equal and they need to use their picks accordingly instead of tossing away a bunch of just to go up and get chased young. Now I'd love to have chase chase young and he never know if he might end up slipping to four but still I think it would be risking too much to take him. Yeah that's that's pretty much it exactly having chase young would be great. I've pretty much been operating as if that ship sailed when the giants beat Washington really use it a perfectly the only position worth trading trading off four is a quarterback otherwise We hear every year about how this team or that team is one piece away. The reality is that not. I'm not team is one piece away. Remember the Atlanta Falcons. Were supposed to be one piece away when they traded up. Julio Jones the very next year the giants it's shut them out in the playoffs improvement in the. NFL is a moving target. Your team might be getting better but so is every other team and the giants really do need to maximize mayes and get the most out of all of their resources. This off season. They need to get as much out of every draft pick as as they can and really get as much out of every free agency dollar as they can so I think that instead of trading up trading back is a better choice especially by Simmons is off the board last question we have here and it is from. NYG I G computer folks and the question is how beneficial is trading down. If it means giants losing out on Simmons or Thomas I why would this question's a little bit hard to evaluate just because it's depending on what they're offered so if they're offered in average trade to the trade back and maybe they get a first-round or next year maybe it would be a little bit tough for them to make that decision. It would be really hard for them to lose out on Simmons or Thomas. But if you're getting an amazing offer and you're getting a ton hon of picks from a really really desperate organization I would say you gotta pull the trigger and just take advantage of that because as nice it is is is it would be to get Simmons or Thomas. Fill those huge needs for the giants. And how much that would improve the roster the most beneficial thing you can do is have even more first round picks and whatever team trades up to get a quarterback and gives you a a a first round pick in the following year or maybe even in the year after that additionally you have to take into account the fact that they're going to be Hamstrung on draft capital. They're going to have less picks and they're going to have a rookie rookie quarterback so that means they're going to be in a difficult spot in situation for next season meaning. They're probably going to have a high pick next year. Meaning the giants get a guaranteed high. Pick not lock it. I pick but probably in the top fifteen range so if you can catch one of those teams leaning. They're so desperate to get that fourth guy because all the other all you the first guys were taken in terms of say. Herbert and borough borough are all gone in. Someone wants to trade up and get frahm because they don't want anyone else to take him. You GotTa take advantage of that yet. I think at the end we Asan's now we don't know where Isaiah Simmons or Andrew Thomas or Trista Or generic wills will go. Oh so if the giants get a good offer especially if they can get a good offer and stay in the top ten. I think they pretty much have to take Achot. Even if it does mean taking a chance at not getting one of those guys it's possible they could Want moving back. Just one spot with Miami and and maybe pick up a that third round pick they lost and maybe a future pick or perhaps they could trade back with the chargers or Carolina China the Jacksonville Jaguars has happens. Have two first round picks this year they also They've got the ninth overall. Pick which would keep the giants in the top ten so it it would be very likely they could still get one of those blue chip prospects but then they can also have. Potentially the twentieth overall pick could get a simmons in broadish or Thomas. And I don't know maybe Klavan Chason to help give them an edge. rusher that that I think would be one way the giants could really maximize the fourth overall. Pick it is more of a gamble than just staying. Put and taking Isaiah Simmons or Jeffrey Afria Khuda and maybe hoping one of those top tackles essay Mickey Becton or at Louisville or Austin Jackson out of USC Z.. Slipped to the giants at the top of the second round but even though it is a bit of a gamble the potential rewards are still they are especially if you could still get the a guy you were targeting it for you. I think the one key thing here to also acknowledge that you don't really have to guarantee missing out on Simmons or Thomas Because does if you do trade back out of that four slot with the chargers who are at six the Carolina Panthers who are at seven or even if you can swap with the dolphins at five you move back a couple of spots. I wouldn't be surprised if Thomas or Simmons or maybe even both of them are still available. You'd be pushing it at that seven pick with the with the panthers but if you swap with the dolphins you still get your guy you can still end up getting the player that is GonNa Fill your need of Thomas or Simmons and I think that that should be a key Emphasis year for the giants that they should try and get the dolphins to show their her hands so they could convince the dolphins that other teams are really interested in trading up so then that will trigger them into being desperate to swap with the giants science instead allowing someone else to leapfrog them and take a guy that they're looking at. Whether it's to Jake from you name it so there's a lot of options and it's obviously very early and there's still plenty of time for a lot of things to move around. We're going to have to see what happens with trade situation and there's a lot of speculation that we'll be doing over the this this whole process it's fun to talk about and see what might end up happening. But that's GonNa be from US folks. Thank you for tuning in as always also thank you for sending in your questions. We really really appreciate it. Be Sure if you're interested again or if there's questions that you didn't get the send in your forgot the Senate in a question be sure to send them into US whenever during the week and we can address them on the next show you can send them directly in facebook or you can comment under the Post that we will likely do the day before we record or you can and also send it to us on social media at Big Blue View Joe Di Leone and at and Raptor M. K.. I also send those questions into Hugh Our g mail big blue view at g mail DOT COM also be sure to rain subscribe. Wherever listened to us? How are you troubled by strange hockey traits of the middle of the night do you experience feelings dread about Nhl Free Agency have you you or your family ever seen in New York islanders game if the answer is yes then? Don't wait another minute. Pick up your mobile device and subscribe to Lighthouse Hockey podcasts from SP nation today. Our courteous and efficient hosts are ready to serve. All of your islander needs and worries lighthouse hockey podcasts for New York islanders fans.

giants Isaiah Zia Simmons NFL Evan Ingram Alec Ogle Tree NHL Brian Urlacher New York twitter facebook Ellison US Chris Dave gettleman generis Jenkins derwin James Tom Smith Chris Joe
Roland T. Owen

Murder Minute

33:24 min | 1 year ago

Roland T. Owen

"Welcome to murder minute on today's episode the mysterious murder of roland roland t owen but i your true crime headlines five chicago teenagers were charged with first degree murder. After their fourteen year old friend was shot and killed during an attempted burglary police say that the teens were attempting to break into a parked car in a suburban chicago driveway. When the seventy five year old homeowner noticed them he stepped out onto his porch and yelled at the teens to stop he told police that all the teens ran to awaiting s._u._v. except one who began to approach him fearing for his life he fired at the team who was shot in the head and would later die from his injuries. The s._u._v. sped away before police arrived at the scene but the teens pulled over a short time later to ask for help from police officers investigating nearby car accident. The injured fourteen year old and a seventeen year old got out of the car and police police officers called for an ambulance and began to administer first aid as the rest of the teens attempted to flee in the s._u._v. The ensuing pursuit lasted about fifteen minutes and ended. When the s._u._v. ran out of gas the occupants ranging in age from sixteen to eighteen were all arrested a- as was the seventeen year old who stayed with his dying friend in the state of illinois. A defendant can be held accountable for the death of a co conspirator during the commission of a felony even if they were not personally responsible because of this felony murder rule the five surviving teenagers were charged with first degree murder and are each being held on one million dollars bail if convicted they could each face a sentence of between twenty years and life in prison philadelphia police attempting to serve a narcotics warrant at a home in north philadelphia were met with gunfire and hours long shootout ensued with the gunman barricading himself inside the house to police officers were inside the home when shooting began and were trapped inside for a time before being safely evacuated the shooter identified by police as thirty six year old maurice hill had a lengthy the criminal history including burglary aggravated assault and gun charges. He fired more than one hundred rounds. During the nearly eight hour long long standoff wounding six police officers his eventual surrender was negotiated by philadelphia attorney chaaka johnson who had previously represented represented hill hill called him during the standoff expressing concern that he might be killed if he tried to surrender johnson was able to facilitate a phone call between himself hill the police commissioner and the district attorney they attempted to negotiate with hill and convince him to surrender but eventually had to use tear gas to force him out of the house charges have not yet been filed but philadelphia district attorney larry krassner told reporters that the suspect act should not have been on the streets given his extensive criminal record but that he will face more than enough charges so that he never leaves jail again. The parents of the dayton mass shooter who fired on a nightclub district august fourth killing nine including his own on sibling have apologized for the glowing bitchy worry that was posted for their son. The obituaries for the shooter and his sister were posted on the website for connor honor and coke life celebration home in bel brooke ohio while shorter than his sisters. The killers obituary described him as a funny articulate articulate and intelligent man with striking blue eyes and a kind smile. It made no mention of the horrific crime that preceded his death or the lives he had taken the obituary dress striking contrast to the descriptions given by acquaintances of the shooter who described a violent and troubled young man dan who was fascinated by guns the backlash over the glowing tribute was swift and the obituary was taken down the next day and replaced by an apology from the killer's parents. Those are your true crime headlines up next the story of roland t owen but first a quick break are you tired of one-size-fits-all workouts and crash diets would if you could use one program for all of your health and weight loss needs noon is here to help new knows had getting in shape isn't just about losing weight. It's about building healthier habits and feeling better about yourself. Whether your goal is finally getting into those jeans practicing more self care or like me more stamina to keep up with your busy schedule neum helps you build a strategy strategy. That's tailored to your goals. This is not a diet. It's a healthy lifestyle news. Program is based on personalized realized habit changing solutions that hopefully burn to develop a new relationship with food to personalized courses and it's easy to get started. I just downloaded loaded. The app answered a few questions about myself my habits and my goals and in just ten minutes i had identified my big picture goal and was on my way. It's like having a trainer. A nutritious and coach all in one new is different because rather than focusing solely on food this program just based on a cognitive behavioral approach using psychology noon teaches us why we do the things we do and arms us with the tools to break the bad habits. It's and replace them with better ones. No food is good bad or off-limits noon. Just teach moderation and helps you stick with it and can be used news with whatever diet you're trying to stick to and new knows that we sometimes get off track but the app doesn't shame you. It just gives you tips to help you get back on track tomorrow. <hes> small steps make big progress. Take your first step and signed up for your trial today at noon. Dot com slash m. That's it's n. O. m. dot com slash m. What do you have to lose sign up at noon. Dot com slash m._s._n. Welcome back to murder minute on today's episode. The mystery of room ten forty six on wednesday january second nineteen thirty five life at one twenty pm a well dressed young man wearing a black overcoat carrying no luggage checked in to one of the four hundred and fifty rooms at the president hotel and kansas city missouri. The young man appeared appeared to be between twenty and thirty five years old stood around six feet tall and had a large scar on his scalp just visible under under his dark brown hair combed over a distinct cauliflower ear. He registered as roland t owen. You're from los angeles and requested an interior room with no windows to the street. Owen was given a room on the tenth floor and bellboy randolph probst escort him to room ten forty six as he led the mysterious. Mr owen to his room owen remarked to probst that he had recently been staying at the nearby mira back kotel and that at five dollars a night the prices were far too high. The two dollar per night charged by the president hotel was far far more reasonable when they reached room ten forty-six probst unlocked the door and handed the key into only the young man looked over the room entered the bathroom and took from his pocket the only the personal items that he brought with a hairbrush a comb and a tube of toothpaste and placed them on the sink those strange nothing seemed suspicious about rolling t owen until oh around two p._m. When the cleaning lady mary soap dick reached room ten forty six during her rounds she knocked on the door and and avoids said come in when she entered the small room she found owen sitting in the dark with with the shades drawn next to a single lamp which dimly lit the space as mary finished servicing the room owen told her leave the door unlocked. My friend is about to visit very soon. He he was either worried about something or afraid she later remarked. He always wanted to kind of keep in the dark. Soap hoped came back to room ten forty six a few hours later to deliver fresh towels owen was in his bed laying there fully dressed a note was on the desk. It red dawn. I will be back in fifteen minutes. Wait the next day at ten thirty a m when mary again returned to ten forty six. The door was locked from the outside. Mary assumed that owen must have locked the door on his way out out. She used her paschi which opened every door in the hotel and entered the room to clean but much to marry surprised owen. Was there sitting alone in the darkness of the room as mary went about her cleaning owen glenn received a phone call no dawn i don't want to eat. He said i'm not hungry. I just had breakfast breakfast. No i'm not hungry. Owen hung up the phone owen and mary then made small talk. She finished cleaning the room and mary left to go about her rounds later that afternoon afternoon at around four pm. Mary returned to route ten forty six to replace the towels as mary approach the door. She heard two men talking. She knocked a husky rough voice responded. Who is it. Mary replied that she was the made in that. She had come to deliver fresh towels but she was cut short. We don't need any the rough voice replied despite knowing that the room was out of towels since she herself had taken them that morning. Mary left at six p._m. Jean owen unrelated to rolling not owen checked into the hotel she had been shopping in downtown that day and was overcome by nausea feeling too l. to drive home and decided to check into the president and rest for the night. The receptionist checked her in two ten forty eight next door to roland. Omen gene called her boyfriend to let him know her plans for the evening. At nine pm he came to the hotel to check on gene visited herber few hours and left around the same time across town. Robert lane was leaving work at the kansas city water department after his shift ended at eleven eleven p._m. As lane turned off of main street and onto thirteenth he saw a man running alongside the road wearing nothing but an undershirt pants and shoes a strange side on a cold january night in kansas city as the temperature that night would have been around thirty three degrees. The man began waving his arms trying to flag down down lanes car. He pulled over and picked him up. The frantic man got into the back seat of the car apologizing to lane saying that he thought it was a taxi and wondered if he might be able to take him to a place where it would be possible to find handicap. Lane noticed that the man who was staring out the window had a cut on his forearm instead. You look like you've had a bad. The man mumbled. I'll kill that tomorrow. The expletive that the man used was frustratingly subsequently redacted from all reports eliminating the possibility ability of gleaning any clues from this crucial statement lane drove on but when the strange passengers spotted a cab he jumped out of the car and took off back in room ten forty eight gene gene owen was having trouble sleeping. It was midnight and she was being kept awake by yelling. That sounded like it was coming from room ten forty six. I heard a lot of noise which sounded like it was on the same floor and consisted largely of men and women talking loudly and cursing gene later recalled when the noise continued. I was about to call the desk but i decided not to. There was reportedly a party going on that night in room. Ten fifty five the guest in room ten forty eight may may have mistaken where the voices she heard were coming from the elevator operator charles blocker who was working working the night shift had already taken several people up to the party that night but as the night quite downs sometime after one a m blocker recalled taking familiar woman with dark hair up to the tenth floor in his statement to police charles blocker said i took a woman that i recognized as being one who frequents the hotel with different men in different rooms. It is my impression from this woman's actions. She is a commercial woman. I took her to the tenth floor floor and she made inquiries for room. Ten twenty six about five minutes after this i received a signal to come back to the tenth floor. Upon arriving there met the same woman she wondered why he wasn't in his room because he had called her and it always been very prompt with his appointments and she wondered whether he might be in room ten twenty four because the light was on in there. She remained about thirty or forty minutes. Then i received a signal to go back up to the tenth floor i went back in the same woman appeared there and she came aimed down on the elevator at the lobby about an hour later. She returned and company with a man and i took them to the ninth floor. Later received a signal to go to the ninth floor at about four fifteen am and this same woman came down from the ninth floor and left the hotel in a period of about fifteen minutes later. The man came down the elevator from the ninth floor complaining that he couldn't sleep and was going <music> out for a while blogger described the man as standing about five foot six inches tall slender under and around one hundred and thirty five pounds wearing a light brown coat brown hat and brown shoes. The woman was about the same size and wore a coat of black hudson seal the next morning around seven a._m. On january fourth the hotel's switchboard operator noticed that the phone in room ten forty six had been off the a hook for some time and upon checking the logs noticed that no call had come in oregon out from the room she sensible boy probst up to route ten forty six the door was again locked and the do not disturb sign was hanging from from the knob after knocking on the door. Several times probst heard a deep voice. Come in it said turn turn on the lights for popes had forgotten his paschi frustrated. The bellboy decided to leave and shouted through the door. Put the phone back on the hook and returned downstairs but at eight eight thirty a._m. About an hour later the phone in room ten forty six was still off the hook this time another bellboy oy herald pike was sent upstairs with the key to place the phone in room ten forty-six back on the receiver after the bellboy knocked and heard no reply he unlocked and opened the door. A win was they're laying. Being naked in the bed. Seemingly passed out drunk under the sheets which appear to have dark marks all over them. The telephone in stand was knocked over. The bellboy placed the phone back on the stand and left the room but just a few hours later later around ten forty five a._m. The phone in ten forty six was again off the receiver so the original original bellboy probst went back upstairs to owen through when he opened the door. He was met with a horrific scene. When i entered the room this man was within two feet of the door on his hands and elbows holding his head head in his hands. Probst later told police. I noticed blood on his head. Then i turned the lights on i looked around around and saw blood on the walls on the bed and the bathroom this frightened me immediately left the room and went downstairs. The bellboy rushed downstairs told the hotel assistant manager what he saw they called the authorities and around twenty minutes later police and detectives arrived at the hotel followed shortly by dr as they examined owens extensive injuries they found that he had been tied around his neck ankles and wrists with tight cord. He appeared to have been tortured. Owen had been stabbed repeatedly in the chest so violently that there was even blood splatter on the ceiling. His skull was fractured. His neck was bruised from strangulation and one of his chest wounds showed the the knife had pierced his lung but owen was still alive and conscious detective on the scene. Ask edwin who had done this to him. Nobody owen responded. I slipped and hit my head on matab. After this brief exchange owen lost consciousness and slipped into a coma as as he was rushed to the hospital according to a doctor the injuries on owens body had been sustained six to seven hours before he it was finally discovered. It was a strange case for the kansas city police department. Whoever attacked hacked owen had taken almost everything from the room there were no towels or items of clothing and no weapon the only things they found were a necktie label a hairpin a cigarette and they closed bottle sulfuric acid. The only fingerprints found by police were on the telephone and appeared to belong to a woman just after midnight on january fifth nineteen thirty five rolling t owen died in the hospital but who was rolling t owen when investigators contacted the authorities in los angeles they found no record of a role in t owen in the city investigators began to suspect that this was not the victims real name so they placed the man's body in a funeral home for viewing with the hope that someone may come in identify him as the story the newspapers people began contacting the kansas city authorities to come and see if their missing loved one might be the man now lying in the funeral home but of the almost three hundred people who came to view the body. Only one man recognized ignites him robert lane identified owen as the man that he had picked up in his car along the road just a few nights prior. He told his story to police who dismissed it believing that if owen had re entered the hotel in the condition described by lane someone at the hotel would have noticed the investigation then switched its focus to determining whether whether any of the other hotels in the area recognized the man and the only other name they had dawn the hotels did recognize the man owen had occupied many hotel rooms recently but each new mysterious guest guessed by a different name the staff of the nearby mubako hotel which owen had complained was too expensive serve knew the man as eugene case scott of los angeles eugene had rented a room for single might and like owen specifically requested a room with no windows the saint regis hotel new him as duncan ogle tree and also claimed that he shared the room with a man named donald kelso each time police received a new name they checked with the los angeles police department each time they turned up no matches investigators could not locate anyone by the name of donald kelso either nor did they have any leads on the identity of the woman whose fingerprints may match the ones found on the telephone. Some speculated that this murder must be the result of some sort of love triangle but why wouldn't owen tell the police who attacked him. Perhaps he was trying to protect someone for months. Police followed lead after lead all dead ends and the case grew colder and colder in march with no identity and no one to claim the body authorities announced that they plan to finally bury owen in an unmarked grave in potter's field when news of the barrio plans hit the papers the funeral home received a phone call from an unidentified man offering to pay for proper burial will and requesting that owen be laid to rest in kansas city's memorial park cemetery the anonymous caller reportedly lately added then he will be near my sister like the funeral home. A local florist also received a strange call. A man phoned to order thirteen american beauty roses to be delivered to the owen funeral. I'm doing this for my sister. The man said on march twenty third nineteen thirty five money bundled in a newspaper was delivered by a courier to cover the funeral expenses. The money for the flowers arrived in an envelope with the handwriting obscured by being written in block capital letters using a ruler on the twenty sixth of march. The roses were delivered to owens funeral service along with a card which was also found in the envelope containing being the anonymous payment the card with the flowers red love forever louise the only people in attendance that day at the man known as owens funeral where the detectives working on the case for several days after the service undercover police case to the grave site dressed as grave diggers in the hopes that someone might visit visit owens grave but no one came the case again went cold and overtime fell out out of the papers over a year passed and in the fall of nineteen thirty six a friend up a woman named ruby ogle tree read an article in an old issue of a popular magazine called american weekly which chronicle the owen case when rubi ogle tree saw the magazine she recognized owen as her missing son who had left birmingham alabama in april of nineteen thirty four his name was artemis ogle tree in the early days after her son had left ruby and artemis had kept in touch regularly but eventually the communication had stopped artem ass- had intended to travel to california but in the spring of nineteen thirty five after owens death in room ten forty six ruby began receiving strange range typewritten letters from various cities around the country the first from chicago then another from new york saying that he would soon be traveling to europe but artists will be said didn't know how to use a typewriter and the language in the letters others was unlike her son it was slangy an unfamiliar to rubio gotree in august of nineteen thirty five ruby ogle trae received a phone call from a man claiming to be a friend of her son. The man said that his name was jordan and told ruby fantastical stories about her son's travels and adventures like like how artemis had lost his thumb in a bar brawl saving jordan's life and that this was the reason why artists hadn't been able to write when rubi ogled free questioned the man story he promptly hung up ruby who was already worried became suspicious after the strange telephone call and decided to contact the new director of the f._b._i. Hi j. edgar hoover asking him to investigate the matter but in november number when ruby ogle tree saw the american weekly article her suspicions were sadly confirmed she contacted the kansas kansas city police and finally identified owens body as that of her son. Artemis ogle tree ruby explained to the police. The distinct scar on the side of the young man's head had been from an accident that he had as a child where he was burned. She told them of his plans to go to california and how she'd lost track of him in nineteen thirty four started receiving strange typewritten letters others and about the phone call from the man calling himself jordan. She told them how worried she'd been for her son. Because artemis ogle tree it was just seventeen years old the name on the headstone memorial park which changed from wilmington owen to artists ogle tree and the case of what happened in room ten forty six when cold for good in the early two thousands dr john horner who penned an exhaustive account of the mysterious case of from ten forty six for the kansas the city public library received an out of state phone call about artem est ogle tree the caller claimed to we have found a box of newspaper clippings about the case in a deceased elderly person's belongings and there was something else in the box something that had been referenced in the newspaper articles but the caller refused to say what it was in two two thousand three the case of room ten forty six was reopened. It remains unsolved. This has been murder minute for true crime anytime download the murder minute app or follow us on instagram at murder minute.

roland t owen owens probst murder kansas city mary owen funeral owen glenn president Jean owen Robert lane roland roland Mr owen chicago los angeles philadelphia illinois
Who Killed Artemus Ogletree?

Stuff They Don't Want You To Know Audio

50:52 min | 2 years ago

Who Killed Artemus Ogletree?

"Are you scared about the possibility of a second American civil war? I'm Robert Evans. I'm the host of the podcast behind the bastards. And I've worked as a conflict journalist in a couple of actual civil wars in Iraq and in Ukraine, and I'm here to tell you I am scared of that possibility. If you wanna know, what might be awaiting your friends and your family, listen to it could happen here. You can listen and subscribe at apple podcasts or on the iheartradio app or wherever you listen to podcasts. Rome UFO's to psychic powers into government. Conspiracies history is riddled with unexplained events, you can turn back now or learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt my name is no they called me. Ben we are joined with our super producer Paul mission control deck. Most importantly you. Are you you are here. And that makes this stuff. They don't want you to know. It's quite possible that some of us listening to the show today or tonight are listening in a hotel or a motel or an Airbnb Holiday Inn. Perhaps sure perhaps express Holiday Inn best western or go classy. Maybe a Weston nights nights in nights in something ritzy like the Ritz or a Hilton the hotel. We're going to be speaking about today is currently a Hilton property. Yes. Apps nights in white satin through. Yes that sounds actually about nights at all. It's about like nights as in the evening nights, bathed and dressed in white satin just realized that pretty recently unrelated. But it's true. There are all sorts of strange things that happen in. In hotels similar to spending time in an airport. Spending time in a hotel is is occupying limbo limited space. It looks like a home you do things that you would do in a home. But it's not really a home. There's something uncanny valley about it. And today's story is about a very strange extraordinary thing that occurred in a hotel, and we don't mean extraordinary in the way, it's often misused today usually ordinaries meant as a compliment, but actually extrordinary just means something out of the ordinary him. That is the the way we're using it today. So let's set the scene on January. The second nineteen thirty five a well dressed young man calling himself rolling t Owen walks into the hotel president in Kansas City, Missouri. The man is not carrying luggage. He's heavy set. He appears to be a fighter of some sort. Or at least someone who's had experience fighting because he has a visible cauliflower ear and a horizontal scar. On the left side of his face quick cauliflower ear thing, you'll see this. If you Google images of a lot of enemy fighters, you see what that looks like. And it's a it's a very easy thing to spot. Right. This man calling himself rolling T O and request a single room with no windows facing the street. He pays cash which you could do at that time, right, which was horrible way to pay for things in thirty five in nineteen thirty five and he checks into room. Ten forty six win the cleaning staff goes by his room, you know, to change the sheets change out the towels and stuff they find the man calling himself role in T O and sitting in a dark room exhibiting signs of profound fright. He tells the staff that he's expecting someone to drop by. So okay. So far what we know scared guy sitting alone in a room that he wanted to stay away rewarded to be a little more anonymous than usual hiding out in a hotel put it's you know, it's mysterious. But it's not all that insane. Right. Yeah. It's it's a little Blair witch. Though reminds me of like the dude standing facing the corner in the Blair witch. You know, okay and on its surface. It's not that weird. But when you know a little more about the back story, it becomes even weirder. Yeah. You're absolutely right. And to explore this story, we're going to shift through various different perspectives, primarily people who work at the hotel. So I what do you say let's start with the maid's tale if we wanna make this Canterbury tale esque or a Hulu original, maybe. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. The non Handmaid's tale. That's right. So at ten thirty in the morning on January. Third the day after our our protagonist, I guess rolling te'o and checks into the president hotel on the end calling himself a over bit. Oh, that's right. Member of the cleaning staff goes up to two room ten forty six where he is. She notices that the door's locked, and she, you know, it's kind of a normal thing. Doors are locked when the cleaning staff comes by they knock, generally and say, housekeeping, she opens the door, and she because she's soons Owen is out maybe at breakfast or having a meeting or something she notices the lights are off to exactly lights are off doors. Locked I'm gonna clean this room will instead as she opens the door as we said earlier, she sees him sitting alone in the dark. Yes, you're that correctly. Just sitting there in the dark now before you say all that is so insane. I just have to bring up a fact that I enjoy doing this a lot actually in well to do that. I don't think it's that on you right there with you. I spend. Hours each week actually in locked in a bathroom in the dark with the shower on sort of thinking nice. I definitely take showers in the dark when I can it might be outlier here. I think I'm the outlier here. Oh, yeah. I'm on the only one that finds the strange. I don't know I got into it. When I was a kid. I got a drum kit in this room had no windows in it in my parents basement, and I would go in there shut the door and like us a flashlight or some something your turn the light on go sit down at my throne, and then turn off all the lights and just practice playing drums in the fish black. And I found it to be riveting to now I'd just like to do things like that who have a similar setup with your drum kit in your last house too. I did. But it was in a basement with one window. I don't know man that basement when I went down there get killed room. Yeah. And I have a very high tolerance for strangeness. I think that was just a factor of the basement itself having the drum kit was just a nice little accoutrements or the walls covered in plastic. Sometimes. Yeah. Okay. When you know when season was right or not digging yourself out of this the whole of weirdness, very well. I don't know what you're talking. Okay. So you so it sounds like two thirds of us are on on board with this. He might have also been dozing off or being that's that's quite possible. Right. But the made is standing there, you know, she notices or senses somehow person sitting in this room, and she realizes the room is in fact occupied and then. Rolling pretty much tells her to not to touch the lights, and he asked the made to leave the door unlocked as she exits because you see he says he is again expecting someone. So this is the second time he said this man, according to a mental floss article that's written on this very subject. It says that the made ended up returning to that room to deliver fresh towels and this time when she went in she found win lying on his bed. Now, he's fully dressed. But there's a note on the desk that red dawn I will be back in fifteen minutes. Wait in that's dawn, spelled D O N. Yes. So who's now got dawn? We've got another person in the mix is that like Donald or the dawn. Oh, my God man never thought about oh, this is gonna this is going to come back around. Yeah. This does come back around. And that's a good question is is it kind of thing. It's kind of like saying, sir. You know what? Duke. Now, we shift to the story of the motorist later on the same night January third as guy named Robert lane. That is his real name. He's not a go calls himself that and he is driving. He picks up a stranger a few blocks away from the hotel president. So the man was dressed only in pants and go like an undershirt, and he had a scar on his left are not an open wound. But like a big very obvious kind of gash of a scar. I was on his left arm. And then when lane told his passenger that he looked as if he was having a rough night the man replied. I will kill that beep tomorrow. And and this beep comes we come honestly by this beat because the reports about this in the newspaper of the time in the area, they remove this word, and it's not clear what it actually was in this guy, Robert Lee, and we're talking about he he worked for the water department in Kansas City. So as he was just some random guy out there. He was doing his job when he interacted right? And I have a proposition for for the table for the show ever proposition. We do not know what expletive she used. And we don't know exactly what the newspapers decided to censor. We may not ever knew it. Yeah. But I stumbled across this great anachronistic. And I think it's this. You know, this great anachronistic insult I love so much better. So what if instead of saying, you know, whatever? Gutter tramp. I dunno whatever weird thing you want to put in there. What if he said I'll kill that sock dodge ising old man trap tomorrow, suck delegitimizing old mantra ill man tram? You'll mantrap. I don't know. Why that tickles me? But you're right. You're right. He did work for the water department. And then later when he's given the opportunity to identify this hitchhiker, who as you said, I was only in pants and and undershirt. Looking like you've been rode hard and put away wet. He said, yes, that's the guy picked up, and they said that guy is Roland t Owen where at least that's what he calls himself. No on this same night. January third just a quick mention. He was allegedly seen around the town at several bars hanging out with at least two women like that night seen hanging around doing stuff with them. The timelines are a little bit weird just just a little bit. But they say he was on twelfth street, which, you know, isn't isn't that far because we're we're our last person our Robert lane he he actually interacted with rolling te'o in alone thirteenth street, which is about a mile and a half from the hotel. So, you know, twelve th street distance is not that far from there. Right. All right. So it's it's completely plausible that he. Could be in that area that there could be some sand to those those reports which did not have. They get widely publicized if I'm correct they were sort of here sayers some rumors, and we should also mention that the cleaning staff the member of the cleaning staff. Her name was Mary sop tick. Yes as so. Speaking of staff, and we are building a case here we are going somewhere with this folks, we're taking a circuitous route. But speaking of staff, let's go to the first bellboy. Who whose name we don't have? Yeah. So bellboy one interacts around seventy m with our protagonist. It's January fourth the phone operator at hotel president because you know, there's an entire system of phone lines going to all the different rooms. There's actually a human being in one thousand nine hundred five that is operating these phones. This operator notices that the receiver of the telephone in ten forty six we're rolling his staying off the hook. And so this bellboy goes up to check on Owen. And or at least to check up on the phone at self. And when he gets there he finds that the door's locked in. There's a do not disturb sign hanging from the knob. It probably says something like nary a disturbance or something like that. He knocks any here's somebody from the other side of the room say come in. And again, he's like a door's locked Hello doors. Locked. Man inside the room just kind of ignores that he's flagging him know that the door is locked. But then the guy says. Dirt on the lax kind of hard to do that. When you can't get into the room Bill boy just keeps on knocking, but he ends up just leaving. But right before he leaves e shells through the door. He wants him to put his phone on the hook, right? It's under the voice. Book damn phone on the hook son. Because that's because it's Hank hill. That's the best. Yeah. Even a very an approximation of what occurred, but yes, he just like yells at him to put the full mackinac, and the bellboy just doesn't have his pass key on him at that moment. So we can't go in and do it. So he just kind of gives up and goes downstairs and hours pass. Let's go to the second bellboy a different member. The hotel staff goes up later that afternoon. So it seventy January fourth when he has the first guy that weird interaction in the afternoon. This different guy goes up, and he does have his key them. So he lets himself into the room. And he finds the man calling himself rule in t oh and lying on the bed in the dark, and from what he could tell this man was very much naked and very much drunk. He also sees that the phone stand has been knocked over. So he doesn't turn on the lights. He doesn't say anything to this naked man reeking of booze. He just hangs up the phone cuts his losses leaves the room. Because at this point. It's you know, it's been hours and hours. The operator is like somebody hang up that phone I need order. I am the operator here hang up that phone. So that bellboy just did it and got out, and we have to more perspectives that are crucial to understanding this mystery will get back to those afterward from our sponsor, if you're going to build something from nothing you've got to know what really works. I took a thousand dollar loan built a five billion dollar business. And now, I make smart investments new businesses on shark tank. I'm Barbara Corcoran. Now, I'm sharing my secrets on my podcast called business unusual. You might think that looking at someone's resume and asking them a lot of questions are the key to finding the right person for a position a dead wrong. Follow business unusual on iheartradio was subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. So we ever I returning a recurring guest star here in this strange tale the first bellboy comes back. Yeah. As well. As the phone operator. Oh, that's right. Yeah. I should give her more credit. You think she was a smooth operator a one would hope teed because she's earned the tight ship. He doesn't like phones being off the hook. That's right. Our hotel right because when we were talking about this, Matt I was like man, very particular. Because I mean, some people might take the phone off the hook. So they won't be disturbed. So wouldn't it be kind of an affront to be disturbed for trying to not be disturbed because? Agreed it also it also may be a situation where given phone technology at the time having one thing off the hook could mess up the line for other other patrons. Yeah. And you gotta wonder too. Was it like a safety concern? You know, what I mean where they would want to be able to reach you or you know, if there's a problem, I dunno. Yeah. I'm just wondering what the what was the urgency with sending a physical human to knock on the. Door pretty aggressively. If you ask me, maybe she heard this crazy noise on the on, the only switchboard, and she was like at this guy out of my ear holes. But she didn't want to say twenty years here. And she didn't want to say what she urged ease. She is the best witness that we have yet to really even discussed that. We don't have information about we need someone to go back to nineteen thirty five and interview the phone operator. He has. Yes. If you have time machine, Don t Joan teeter right help. So so like like, you said she's pretty ardent about this all phones shall be either emus or they darn well better be hooked on their proper stand. So she's a bit of stickler perhaps she sends one in the staff members up to check this out. He opens the door. He's got his key on them. And then he finds the man calling himself role in T O and still. Naked still nude but viciously brutalized someone has beaten the tar out of him and is on the edge of death. Of course, the hotel calls the cops the cops find blood spatters festoon, the walls the bed the bathroom, Roland T oen guy calls himself that appears to have been tortured. So not just roughed up but maliciously purposely victimized with an emphasis more on making things painful rather than just immediately killing the guy because he was stabbed. I believe in dozens of times very shallowly which into which you now would show you that it was something to keep him alive in order to make him talk or just extend that pain as much as possible yet. Good observation right because it's very messy to kill someone with a knife. But it's very easy. So whomever was they knew what they were doing and they did not want. Immediately kill him. His skull was also fractured from what appeared to be a series of intense impacts from a blunt object somehow ole boy is still alive at least for a second. And goodness gracious. Did he have a strong desire to cover up who had done this to him? He literally said I something along the lines of. I tripped and fell, you know, onto a knife repeatedly. Yeah. Very strange thing to say he was trying to protect something ROY somebody else, or or you know, what he had done like if may perhaps if the police knew who did this to him, they might know something that he had done so maybe self preservation, or maybe he's protecting a third party, maybe who is involved in criminal activity. I mean, that's what you would think if you're law enforcement once I slipped fell. Maybe he was just like, I'm not a rat. You know, that could be he also could have been completely insane from the pain. Yeah. Torture and just. You know and have probably hit a undergone some brain damage remain, whatever kicked on the head. I mean if he had a serious fracture there. Well, that's almost certain because the next thing that happens to Roland is he slips into a coma. And he doesn't make it through the night. Yeah. He's not in the coma for long. He dies that evening. So this brings us to today's question. What happened to the man calling himself, Roland t Owen? Here's where it gets crazy. It turns out there is no rolling T O and matching the description of this corpse there are several people with the name Roland Owen in the world at this time and in the United States, and there are plenty of dead people who have that name. But none of them. Are this person rolling t Owen cannot be identified? And so law enforcement takes tact. That may be surprising to some of us here in two thousand nineteen I've never heard of this happening in the modern day. What are they what are they do? Okay. So yes, this is very strange. We've talked. We talked about this off, Mike. How I I don't think any of us ever heard of this exact technique. For identifying somebody for even for other Joan does I've never heard slammed just sell them tells what they literally propped him up in a funeral home like window, which is one of the most macabre things I've ever seen first of all if I was walking down the street and saw that with my kids or something like that. I would consider the personal affront, I certainly wouldn't be like, oh, look it's Steve it'd be like Jesus what does that give me out of here? Miami. No is not a good thing. Not a good look. But yeah, they do this. And it actually yield's some hits, right? Yes. Several people around the area do recognize rule te'o. And from various encounters with them while he was on this side of the Vale. But none of them know him as anything other than Roland in the police are at this point. We should add the police are befuddled, and they think that there's something something else at play something beyond the mundane although horrific tragedy of of homicide because we didn't mention this when they found Owen Ryan we said he was naked. But his hotel room had also been ransacked there were new towels. No shampoo, he didn't have any clues in the room. He had a label for a necktie a hairpin a cigarette a safety pin and a small sealed bottle. Of sulfuric acid what right? What do you do with that acid, man? Well, then also they'll they find a broken glass of some sort where? Yeah. In the sink, the jagged edge in the only prince they've found because the fingerprint technology in the nineteen thirties came from the telephone stand and the police for some reason correctness if you're a forensic expert, but the police for some reason say well, these fingerprints of a woman. He is that profiling, but I guess it would be if it's police officers trying to I don't know. Maybe I just had dainty hands. Who knows? Okay. So. People could identifies body some Neum as Roland. But other people knew him by different names. You know, we don't have those names today. But like, oh, that's Alvin or Alphonso or Beauregard. I don't know. And it turned out he stayed in more than one hotel before he stayed at the hotel president. There was another hotel called the mule Bach Otell, and they knew him as you gene case got. Yeah. They said he like stay there for one night in those and didn't want windows facing the street. Yeah. What is he up to? He'll oh you also stay the same Regis, the another nice hotel in the area. Oh in this time his name. Now. This is going to be we don't wanna spoil too much, but his name recalled himself Duncan Ogle tree at that hotel. And he shared a room with another man was known as Donald Kelso. There's our dawn done is that are done. Don, Donald Kelso. Then there was a wrestling promoter. Who said that Owen? Remember looked like a fighter had approached him a few weeks ago, or if you weeks earlier and said I'd like to sign up for some wrestling matches. But don't call me rolling t Owen. My name is sessile Warner. Sessile Werner in for sting. So all right now, I'm getting a little more of a picture, I'm assuming we're everyone listening all of us have heard of these I guess smaller wrestling matches or more localized wrestling matches or they can range from like family friendly to the Macab, essentially, no imagining all these like shallow cuts on him and injuries to his head fees. A local wrestler that maybe takes things too far. But we'll get into that a little later. Yeah. This not entirely related or ten generally related at best. But if you guys ever seen those kind of local wrestling matches. Oh, yeah, I've been view and I was a kid. I saw when I saw one where the blood was definitely real. And these guys were not. We're not faking it all due respect to the cave, Faber, whatever they call it WWE. But these guys were. Actually, beating the snot out of each other the one that I went to is super theatrical in the sense that like the bad guy was often some sort of foreigner undoing crow fingers, and and the good guy was like swabbed and like an American flag or something like that. And there was some real hooting and hollering from the stands it was out in the country out in rural Georgia. Would as a real experience where we were we friends we met when you went. It was pretty recently. Okay. It was like last year. Okay. Yeah. Because I feel like I remember that story. I would still I would still go check out one of those matches. But yeah, maybe maybe he was involved in something related to wrestling to fixing match right or something with organized crime. But or participating in a match, but that's that's the thing. The police are at their wit's end due to the circumstances of the discovery in the circumstances of this man's death. They say they need to identify them because they have the feeling that this may be a breadcrumbs leading to something much much much more. Sinister. And they put his body into split on display, and they take out an ad the ads telling people to help them to show up at this funeral home for the viewing hundreds of people go, and as we said a lot of them. No, this guy under various different names and far be for me to criticize anybody for travelling under different names with a lot of it goes back to that scar that he had on the left side of his face, right? And the ear in ear because it's just something like you said earlier been you just would recognize that. So people are following this story in the local papers of the time and the million dollar question is who the hell is this eventually people just throw up their hands and say, we tried our best you can't win them. All they made plans to bury the body of the man calling himself rolling t west, and you, gene and sessile. And so on I in an unmarked grave at a Potter's field in a Potter's field is where. Bodies will be turned if they have no survivors to take care of them or they have no funds or no, no will or they can't be identified. He now. Just okay. Let's go back to win. The news article comes out where they're announcing. Here's this unidentified person. Let us know if you've heard of this person before in an anonymous person a woman calls, the local paper, and she says that somebody somewhere some anonymous person is gonna pay for a proper funeral for this person known as Roland and. When when the local paper inquires about well, hey, do you know what happened to him or why ended up in the state? She says, quote, he got into a jam got into a gym who is this Dennis Reynolds. This like a dentist Reynolds all jammed up when he get jammed up, buddy. Boy. But but seriously, that's that's a strange thing to say, right and. Shortly afterwards. Another person calls in anonymously this time, it's a man and they call the funeral home. And he confirms that he'll be paying for the funeral of this personal themselves role in t Owen, and he has some conditions along with this payment and says not only will I pay for the funeral butts. He is going to be is my wish the buried in this specific symmetry. And then he says he'll be near my sister. The men mentioned specifically memorial park cemetery. And if we were to paraphrase, he tells the Beatles law enforcement that Rowland had jilted girl that he the unidentified caller had planned to marry and that the three of them had met up at the hotel president. Oh, and the caller says she. Leaders usually get what's coming to them. I'm not sure why are all southern, but it's just more fun than we find one to do think. We're just feeling. And we would we would need to put in some more research to really give Missouri accent. Yeah. I don't know what that would be Kansas City. That's what people call you. Right. It. Call you Kansas City. So he hangs up right after he says cheaters usually get what's coming to them. Dial tone noise, the whole nine multiple unidentified people send flowers to the funeral. One order for flowers. Five dollars worth of flowers has a card attached. And it says love forever. Louise, L O U S E. And then time passes it isn't until nineteen thirty six when a woman from Birmingham, Alabama Reeves and account of this unsolved murder in the magazine American weekly. And he she thinks it's fairly apparent in the article that this guy's name was not rolling t-o-n. Yeah. Nor was it any of the other names used most likely. So this lady. Says this corpse might be the missing child of my good friend. He left home in April of nineteen thirty four, but his name isn't Roland in. We'll tell you what his name is afterward from our sponsor. Hi, this is Ron burgundy from the Ron burgundy podcast, and I'm recording this brand new promo because apparently the old promos are now suffering from listener fatigue. So I'm recording. This new one to ask you to listen to the Ron burgundy podcast. And I'm so sorry. You the listener that you've become fatigued by the previous promo. So here's a brand new one a right there. How do you like it? Yeah. Listened to the podcast. Thank you. All right ready for this. Artemis Ogle tree you recall Olga tree from earlier Dunkin Ogle Trie. Yes. Okay. Interesting. So. The woman who finds this article in American weekly she reaches out to Artem asus. Mother MRs Ogle Trie, and she goes on the mother to positively confirm the body of rolling T O N as that of her son in law enforcement says all right? We believe you. We agree with your claim the timeline checks out. This is your son. We have finally identified as victim. It is arduous Ogle tree. He had left home a left Alabama Naples one thousand nine thirty four a sensibly to travel to California. But it's weird because for some time. The family the o'kielty family thought he was completely fine. You see sometime after Ogle trees, physical death the family had received two letters from Artemis. To typewritten letters after his murder where he claimed everything was fine. Don't worry about them plans have changed. He's now traveling the world. Oh, wow. So they did not know he was dead. But he certainly didn't write these letters starts, right? Because generally when the mother had received letters from her son, they were all handwritten in a very specific handwriting that her son uses these typed out Ridder letters were much more formal than what she was used to receiving which definitely made them released set them apart and made her a bit suspicious about them. Then before the mother actually found out that the stone was dead. She had received a phone call from some man, some I guess anonymous person, but this person called themselves Jordan, this is so weird. Yeah. And he claimed Jordan claimed that artists was now living in Cairo. Egypt had become. Married to some at least unknown to the mother wealthy woman. And that everything was okay. And he was just he was living out his wife now in Cairo. Yeah. It's very strange. So the authorities said let's not push our luck. We'll settle for dentistry in the body. Yeah. You know this. We may never identify the murderer or the murderers. But it's amazing that we were able to bring closure to this grisly grisly story. So. These letters, by the way, Savarese different things one said he was in Chicago once it was sailing from New York to Europe, these it appeared as though they were real time updates. And at this point we can try to go a bit further than the police went. We don't have to settle for just identifying the body you see in the decades almost a century of time since the discovery of the of the murder in the death of Artemis oracle tree. Hundreds of thousands of people have been working the case attempting to figure out what actually happened to this poor unfortunate young, man. And they built some pretty interesting theories here was it a jilted lover situation. We've talked about those possibilities did the unidentified male caller have a part in Ogle trees, murder, Jordan. Yes, right. Was one of was he possibly one of Louise's siblings. Relative of some. Kind was memorial park cemetery a place where will trees spurn lever. Could visit her grave. My question. There though is why why bury your enemy next to the person who he he wronged who who you did him in for it feels like a mob move. Feels like a mom move or kind of twisted some sort of weird. Vengeance kind of thing where it's like a power move. I dunno. It's very very weird. It's like Louis you my sister. I love you. But I cannot let this disrespect go on punished they go. We'll let's get back into just the concept of the jilted lovers theory here. So what we do know early. What we have heard here throughout the story is that perhaps Ogle tree was in the middle of some kind of love triangle, and it the question then is whether or not like which side of the triangle, he's own essentially. Right. Was he betrothed to someone we're in? He messed up. Was the his partner messing up in some way, doing something with someone else or was the other person like the husband or something to that effect? So and there's really no way for us to know for sure what that situation was. And it's difficult to go down all the different paths and try to figure that out. But we do know that this dawn character was somehow in his room involved, in some way, at least there would be more information there if you could find it with this person and the other Louise's a possibility, and then you've got the fingerprints. I would say that's one of the more promising theories, one of the more promising avenues. Yeah. There's another thing that occurs in nineteen thirty seven there's a guy named Joseph Ogden. That's the earliest never says his real name. And the police don't believe he is arrested for the murder of his roommates turns out Joseph Ogden is not this guy. Is only aka he's also been known to go under the moniker of Donald Kelso. Oh, and his description matches the description of the Donald Kelso who had stayed at the Saint Regis with artists when he was going by the name Dunkin Ogle tree, dude. But again, here's the deal this, I guess there wasn't much else to learn here or it was just never pursued for one reason or another. So we don't know anything more about this lead. And then let's bring in Jordan, the caller you brought up. Could this guy have actually that caller of Jordan could that have also been Kelso slash Ogden, whoever that guy was. In was he trying to cover his tracks by saying, oh, he's Alvin Cairo somewhere. Don't worry about him. He's fine. But either way this person Jordan, this caller made himself very suspicious, right? Because all we know about this caller is that they called themselves, Jordan, that's present identification or birth certificate or anything like that. And frankly, we have two people who were definitely using multiple fake names. Right, Kelso and Ogle Trie. We don't really know why they were using these fake names. And that I think is fascinating twist to this tale because that's something they they don't want you to know it was much easier to travel under an assumed name at the time. This is caused some people you can find these various like independent investigation threads or or the excellent sub Reddit unresolved mysteries. Various people have. Due to the secrecy in the fact, they was traveling at one point with another guy. They've said perhaps he was assuming a false identity to pursue a same sex relationship, which would have been very controversial at that time. Absolutely. But in all fairness, there's not a whole lot. Like, there's no proof that that was not the case. But there's not really any proof that it was the case. So that's clearly speculation. Absolutely. It could be sure. But who knows the other big question is was there any kind of drug drug involvement one way or the other in use or in sales perhaps. Yeah, I don't see how I kind of almost lump that in with any potential mob connection, right? As part and parcel of the same kind of toxic relationship. You know, it seemed like he was drinking very very heavily at least by the time. He got to hotel president. Yeah. About the other stuff. We'll do. Okay. So using assumed names because you're doing something you're you're involved in some kind of illegal activity. That's why you don't want it to be known who you actually are that. So that's what we're saying. I mean, I can I can imagine that there's a it. It kind of known that in Kansas City, Missouri around the nineteen thirties organized crime was a thing. Oh, yeah. This bike this might be surprising to some of us listening. But it's true. The Kansas City crime family also known as this Avella crime family is a mafia mafia outfit based in Kansas City, Missouri. They've been there since one thousand nine hundred twelve when the founders the DJ Vanni brothers fled Sicily and landed in Kansas City, Missouri. I don't know about you guys. But when I think of Kansas City, I think of stuff like barbecue or maybe there's some great art museums. But immediately think of the mob. I'm just going to admit that I don't think about Kansas City, Missouri enough, and I vow to think about it more very to that. Valerie seriously map, he can't vow lightly, sir. All right going to quiz you on Kansas City in a week's time or. You do it. I just know there was a place. I think in New York called Max's Kansas City has not in Kansas City. That's all I city a restaurant. I think it's like it was a famous music venue. Well, here's here's the weird thing not only is the mob a force to be reckoned with in Kansas City, Missouri. But they. Had a lot of paragovernmental control. Meaning that you know, you you've heard the stories. We also have a great story of gotta tell you guys off air to see if we can get it on the show. But we've asked him your fellow listeners before to send in stories about small town corruption Kansas City in while it's not a small town in the turn of the century in the early nineteen hundreds. There is a lot of rank corruption prohibition ended in nineteen thirty three. So just like a few years before artemisinin will treat meets his untimely. End on the family made a lot of coin off prohibition, but they also diversified. So they have different rackets protection money from bars and restaurants, right and things. Get ugly there involved in politics too. You know, cooking the books. In the race for governor of Missouri in things like that. So it is completely possible that. When we when we add up these dots these crumbs it's completely possible that there's a argument for a criminal underground or the mob. Can I add one extra thing on top of this mob connection because I can totally see this reasoning and we've luminated pretty well what if he's on the other side of the law? What if he and dawn or maybe just he was actually an agent of some sort that was investigating some of the organized crime. And that's why he ended up getting taken out. And then it's the mob connections that are arranging his funeral or, you know, paying for his funeral putting him by his sister. What if he was a rat? Maybe I mean, the only the cops did hold that funeral right? There was a furor service. But the detectives on the case where the only people who attended the funeral which also makes you think you know, what I mean. Because if it's just a case, why would you go to the funeral to just to to case? Join C of anybody shows right to see if someone takes the bait or if he's a part of your team, or if he's, you know, if he's one of those undercover cops people work undercover at that that kind of level of intelligence brutal life, and you know, a lot of times they're never in the spotlight. They can't compromise. It's true. I'm thinking wire true been thanks. I was just going to keep saying each other's names. Eight department you guys. So make it up you too. So. It is true. It's it's not proof positive, but it is true that the Kansas mob could and did murder multiple people in this time period without a ton of interference from regional federal authorities some because they were bought off or they were already in the thick of the corruption and others because their hands were tied. Well, all right. So is that the end of the story, not not not really this very strange because we have to ask ourselves whether a cover up persist is he decades and decades later, there's a researcher based at the Kansas City public library. And like a lot of residents are residents of Missouri. Residents of Kansas City. This researcher has has a hobby. They look into this these kind of cases. So they are familiar with the case of Artemis local tree they received an anonymous phone call, and the caller I starts asking questions. Have you heard of the Ogle tree case you heard of the person calling themselves role in t Owen? And then say, yes, I'm familiar with it. I'm a researcher. And then this anonymous caller says that they had someone who's close to them pass away. And they've been going through the belongings of this person because they had the died quite recently. And they found a box within this. Fox there were multiple newspaper clippings all about the same story. The so called mystery of room ten forty six, but that's not all they find. They also say they find something. That's the quote, something that was mentioned in these articles. And then they hang up. These people have terrible phone etiquette. Really? It's like how intelligent and infill. No one ever says goodbye on the phone and there's immediately a dial tone. It's true as we know is not how phones work. Yeah. Right. So that's where we're left at this point in twenty nineteen the Ol-, Artem is Ogle tree Rhone -til Owen story. That's that's where we're left who was this mystery caller was it a surviving relative of Ogle trees, murderer surviving relative or friend of his former lover his paramour. What do you think? Honestly, do you think it was mob involvement? Do you think it was just a a love triangle, gone wrong? What just tell us? Tell us your best theory and support it please with arguments, then than we will combine all of those and Ben and all and I will sit around a desk somewhere in. We'll figure it out. Just just ourselves. We won't tell you guys about it. And also if you are listening to this, and you are related to someone with inside knowledge of this case, and you want to break it down for us anonymously. We'd love to hear you out. You can write to us on Facebook confined us on Twitter, you can find us on Instagram or conspiracy stuff and or conspiracy stuff show in those places. If you don't want to do that. And you want to tell your story in three minute bursts. You can call our number. We are one eight three three as TD w why TK leave a message. I've got it up on my phone again. So I'm a might going through them and putting more stuff out. Did you guys? Hear the really weird message. We got. I haven't listened the usual listened to fun is it. It's it's great. And some somebody out. There has a great sense of humor. Well, you'll hear it soon. It immediately made me want to do another listener call in episode. We have the treasure trove. We also have the three of us also have personal Instagram's if you wanna follow our individual adventures. Yeah. Mine is at embryonic insider at Ben Bullen and mine is at sitting in the dark alone playing drums tall pictures of Matt sitting alone in the dark, no lights. Look really dark. It's just really you have to turn the sound on right? Yeah. That's a just reprieving. That's what the kids. Call weird flex. There we go and if none of that quite bags of your badgers. If you're tired of social media API and on the phone, but you want to tell us something about this case or something fascinating from your neck of the global woods. We are all ears or this case is you can write to us directly. We are conspiracy. At how stuff works dot com. If you're going to build something from nothing, you've got to know what really works. I took a thousand dollar loan and built a five billion dollar business. And now, I make smart investments new businesses on shark tank. I'm Barbara Corcoran. Now, I'm sharing my secrets all might podcast called business unusual. You might think that looking at someone's resume and asking them a lot of questions are the key to finding the right person for a position, you're dead wrong. Follow business unusual on iheartradio or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.

Roland t Owen Kansas City president Missouri Donald Kelso Ogle trees murder Roland Matt Don t Joan Jordan Barbara Corcoran Ben Bullen T O Rome Google Dunkin Ogle Trie wrestling
S05 Episode 13 Extra: An Impossible Murder

Unexplained

13:32 min | 4 d ago

S05 Episode 13 Extra: An Impossible Murder

"Welcome to unexplained extra with me. Richard mclean smith wealth. The weeks in between episodes look at stories and ideas that for one reason or other didn't make it into the previous show in last week's episode a room with no view. We followed the mysterious case of automous ogle tree and his apparent assault in room. Ten forty six at the president hotel in kansas city missouri. The led to his death. Ogle trees murder presents a hugely puzzling. Real world locked room mystery whereby everything of note appears to have taken place in one room in which nobody apart from artemis was ever seen coming in or out of part of the fun of course a strategic as it was for the victim is trying to decipher. Just what exactly occurred. The case i believe is all the more tragic since ogle. Trie who appears was gay. May well have escaped. His deeply conservative hometown of birmingham alabama in search of the freedom to love whoever he wanted only to be murdered by someone who become romantically involved with since any investigation into who'd attacked him would likely lead to him. Being outed with all sexual acts between persons of the same sex being legal at the time the would have been immense pressure not to reveal anything about what had taken place all of which is mere speculation of course in the end we are left only with the small smattering of clues and any number of possible theories unsurprisingly such stories a great fodder for writers of crime fiction forever on the hunt for more ingenious and unusual ideas to bamboozle their readers with and there is one case in particular has enthralled and mystified some of the world's best from pd james to raymond chandler with took place only a few years before ogle tris death in liverpool england back in nineteen thirty one it was as chandler himself described the impossible murder because the main suspect couldn't possibly have done it but neither could anyone else on the evening of monday january nineteenth nineteen thirty one down at the liverpool chess club on emily. St as members began arriving for their weekly seven thirty matchups the club's telephone started to ring taking it off the hook. The clubs captain asked who was calling the man on the other end of the line identified himself as a mr. Ram quattro wanted to speak to william wallace. One of the members of the chess club since wallace was yet to arrive. The man left a message instead telling the captain to inform wallace that he wished to meet him at his home at twenty five men love gardens east the following night at seven thirty pm sharp to discuss an endowment policy for his daughter. Wallace arrived a few minutes later under his. Julie handed the message by the captain though it was a little unusual for a potential client to try and reach him at the chess club since wallace was an insurance agent. The request at least made some sense. However as wallace was quick to note to the club captain he'd never heard of anyone called cuatro before nor of any street named men love gardens east. Although he in some of his fellow members did know of men love avenue that fifty two years old wallace appeared to be every inch the typical quietly dedicated suburban professional living out a fairly mundane existence with his wife. Julia who had seventeen years his senior with sixty nine at the time. Wallis's past however was anything but mundane having spent time working in calcutta india and later shanghai in china as a draper for the british armed forces before a kidney problem forced him to return to england. Where the kidney was later removed. After a brief stint in local politics wallace having by then met julia eventually settled in liverpool. After getting a job working for the prudential insurance company for sixteen years. He and julia rented a property on wolverton street where they could often be found in the evening jetting together as julia played the piano and william tried his best to accompany her on the violin. Otherwise wallace occupied himself. Damage your studies in chemistry and electric's while also conducting the occasional lecture at the local technical college all in all by nineteen. Thirty one here's and julius was very much the quiet life which only made what happened next. All the more shocking is the something interfering with your happiness or preventing you from achieving your goals. Better help will assess your needs and match you with your own. Licensed professional therapist. Sign up today and start communicating less than forty eight hours. You'll get timely and thoughtful responses. Plus you can share. You'll weekly video or phone sessions so you won't ever have to sit in uncomfortable waiting room. You can also log into your account anytime to send a message to your counselor. Better help is not a crisis line nor self help it is professional counseling done securely online with a broad range of expertise available and with better helps commitment to facilitating great therapeutic matches. They make it especially easy and free to change counselors to help you find the right fit. This podcast is sponsored by better help and unexplained listeners. Get ten percent of their first month. That better help dot com ford slash unexplained. That's better h. E. lp dot com forward slash unexplained joined the over one million people taking charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced professional. Better help wants you to start living a happier life today today. After that the curio phone cool the couple was seen in their home to around six forty five pm by milk boy. Who'd called round to collect his bill for that week at precisely seven hundred six. Pm william wallace having seemingly set out to attend the seven thirty meeting with the mysterious ram quattro was seen boarding a tram. Roughly two miles away from his home where he asked to conduct directions to men love gardens east having been told to get off at penny lane transfer to the five tram while they spent the next ten minutes continually asking the conductor to call out when they arrived there after boarding the next traumat- seven fifteen pm while it's then asked its conductor again for directions to men love gardens east not knowing where it was however this conductors suggested he get off at menlo avenue half a kilometer up the road but sometime around seven thirty pm. The residents of twenty five men love gardens. West heard a knock at the door opening it. They found an exasperated wallace. Wanting to know of mr. Ram quattro lifted the property. As explained he'd been given the address east but it only been able to find north south and west and had begun to wonder if he had the address wrong. The occupants however had never heard of the man a few minutes later. Wallace approach to nearby police officer and proceeded to explain his predicament. Asking again for directions to men love gardens east before pointedly asking whether it was eight pm yet to h the police officer confirmed it was not next. Wallace dashed over to a local newsstand to search local directory where he also asked the seller working there if they'd ever come across men love gardens east when they said they hadn't either wallace finally gave up the search and returned home. He was next seen around eight forty five pm standing outside the front door house looking confused when his neighbors florence and jack. Johnston asked him what the matter was. He explained neither his frontal back. Dorky seem to be working and that his wife julia to go out that evening didn't appear to be inside asking the johnston's to escort him round the back. Wallace attempted to access the house again. Where this time. He was able to unlock the door. While florence and jack waited for him while stashed inside appearing moments later with a look of horror on his face. Come and see. He said she's been killed. The johnston screamed in shock at the sight of julia on the floor by the gas fireplace. Her head a bloody pulp having been smashed open underneath her was a half burned. Macintosh coat while all about the walls were splattered with blood. They finished her muttered wallace. Look at her brains. Please found it ll evidence of disturbance in the property. Although wallace was convinced that some money had been stolen. Nothing else of any not including the murder weapon was found. The medical professional coal to the scene determined that julia had died at sometime between six and seven pm. Although no formal tests were carried out to confirm this with laos to go on as the only credible suspect. William wallace was promptly arrested and two weeks later put on trial for his wife's murder over four days. The prosecution and defense argued the merits of the case with the phone. Call from the mysterious. Ram quattro who was never identified founder being placed only four hundred meters from the wallace. Home the prosecution that wallace made the call himself then carried out his very public search for the meeting. Location the following night in order to construct an alibi and yet if julia was last seen alive at six forty five pm but died around seven pm at the latest. It simply wasn't possible for william only moments later to being seen on the tram looking clean and presentable two miles away as for the murder weapon. The couple's cleaner testified that a small iron bar and a fire poker appear to be removed from the property with the media and public having had a field day with the crime conjuring up all sorts of wild theories as to how and why he done it. It appears the jury's opinion was already made up after only an hour deliberating. The case they returned with a verdict of guilty wallace was sentenced to death by hanging however wallace quickly appealed the decision and having been disturbed by a conviction determined on only the flimsiest of evidence. The court of criminal appeals. Moved to overturn the decision. His freedom was short lived however when he finally succumbed to the kidney shoes to play tim for much of his life dying in february nineteen thirty three after a miserable two years being relentlessly for having seemingly got away with murder many years later during renovation of the old wallace home the i in bah thought to be in a possible murder weapon was found at the back of the fireplace. It was later analyzed but found to have no bloodstains on it. if you enjoy unexplained and would like to help supporters. you can now do so fi. A patriot to receive access to add free episodes. Just go to patron dot com forward slash unexplained part to sign up. Or if you'd to make a one time donation you can go to unexplained podcast dot com ford slash support all donations no matter how large or small are greatly appreciated unexplained the book and audio book featuring ten stories that have never before been covered on. The show is now available to buy worldwide. I can purchase through amazon barnes and noble and waterstones among other bookstores all elements of unexplained including the show's music of produced by me. Richard mclean smith. Please subscribe and drake the show wherever you listen to podcasts. And feel free to get in touch with any thoughts or ideas regarding the stories you've heard on the show. Perhaps you have an explanation of your own. You'd like to share. You can reach us. Online at unexplained podcasts dot com or twitter at unexplained pot and facebook at facebook dot com forward slash unexplained podcast.

wallace Ram quattro julia Richard mclean smith Ogle trees Trie ogle tris liverpool chess club Wallace william wallace president hotel chess liverpool raymond chandler ogle artemis england kansas city chandler Wallis
Week 13's Daily Fantasy Lineup and Giving Thanks for Andy Dalton  | The Dantasy Football Podcast

The NFL Show

39:02 min | 1 year ago

Week 13's Daily Fantasy Lineup and Giving Thanks for Andy Dalton | The Dantasy Football Podcast

"Today's episode of the Dancy Football podcast is brought to you by state farm. When you need a game plan for protection state farm agents are here to help with personalized service? Agents are available to talk in person over text or through the state farm APP. Go at the one with coverage and agents. You can count on finding agent in your neighborhood today. state-formed talk to an agent today. Welcome to the fantasy football podcast on the ringer. NFL show on the Ringer podcast network. My name is Danny Hi tonight. I'm joined as always by my co host white coat Danny the hero. We need the analyst. We deserve the Dark Knight Him in South Valley. Are you doing Deka Man. That injured is gets better every time I'm doing really good. How're you doing? Fantastic at age is like a fine wine. We're also joined by Craig World Power you Craig hybrids dealer roommate. Maybe you wake him up with that. Yeah I was picturing the exact same thing that poor fellow sleeping pill back the curtain a little bit. We're we're we're recording. Danny is at in his apartment. Were recording kind off-schedule. This week because of the Thanksgiving schedule so I just love this out of Danny yelling in his apartment and waking up all his neighbors going data Kelly no he just got woken up by garbage. Trucks goes Outta here but yes. We are recording this on Tuesday morning because of flight schedules in this holiday around this like Turkey bird thing so little early this week but it's not gonNA stop. Stop us from rolling. We're going to run through a bunch of players who like and their matches this week. We're going to break down our fendell lineup of the week at the end but first we're going to run through some categories put some. DFS players like this weekend some buckets shall we dive in. Let's do that all right. I don't WanNa wake up your neighbors to all right first up going big Deka. WHO's expensive player? You think is worth the money. This week I'm going Patrick. The homes the chiefs going up against the raiders this week whose defense has been struggling of late. He's eighty six hundred second. Most expensive quarterback on the slave behind. Only Lamar Jackson who has just has gone scorched earth on everyone of late Chiefs are coming off their bye so I figure they should be well rested healthier Ready to you know Andy. Reid is ready game. Plan the hell out of this one. Patrick Mahomes has been kind of seen as thunder stolen a little bit by Lamar Jackson. So maybe he wants to remind everyone who he is and how great he is so anyways anyways I think we could. We could be due for vintage mahomes performance in this one. The running back situation is really muddled and they might just aired out instead. So I'm really high on Mahomes this this week against the raiders. I mean mahomes best game. The whole season was were best. Stretch was the second quarter. That raiders chiefs game early the season we had four touchdowns in one quarter. I'll I forgot about that Great Point thank you That just makes you feel even better about this. Absolutely shredded them. I think the raiders defense is all I mean the Rangers just got shredded by SAM. darnold the jets. That's what I love. Sam Darnold but slightly better than SAM darnold right. Speaking of New York I rolling with the giants saquon Barkley this week. He's the seventh most expensive running back going against the Green Bay packers packers pack them. Saying maybe I just want need vacation but now we're that Barclays Seven most expensive. I mean he's really fought off in terms of I. I think expectations and everything well. That's Kinda why like it. Because he's not been producing Mariah two receptions for one yard last week and seventeen carries for fifty nine yards words. I mean he he's just not been able to get going in the passing game not been super-efficient in the Russian game. Yeah he did have a I think he just dropped one that was like wide open in the flats and he was going to have a big gainer But it it just kind of went through his hands. I think like I'm with you. I think he's due for a bounce back. I look. He's getting so much volume in the giants are going to funnel so much of their offense through him that even if it's being a little bit of a struggle right now I like him when he becomes the seventh most expensive running back. He's going to get so many touches shoes and also green bay. It's a really good match up their bottom five run defense by Devi away which is football. Outsiders just basically efficiency and they're allowing more fantasy points per game to running backs than the dolphins twenty nine and a half fantasy points per game. It's the third most of any team to opposing fantasy running backs Barkley obviously gets all the giants such as running backs basically so all those are for him. He's not had more than hundred yards. Total like screw yards from scrimmage in four of his last five games since returning from. That ankle sprain but I think that the changes that this week I think you can break that. Against the packers got a touchdown and get your return. I'm being the most expensive back so love the discount and Saquon I liked liked. This one actually almost had him in here too so I'm bullish on him this week. Hopefully kind of finally breaks out correct. Were you going big on. I'm going big on Davante Adams and the packers This week he's eight thousand dollars the third most expensive on faneuil. They're playing the giants Devan days been seeing a ton of targets all year. He missed a huge chunk because turf toe but when he has played he said the third-highest target share in the League amongst all wide receivers and Especially since returning from injury censor attorneys had targets of eleven twelve Alvin ten in his first three games back. And he's only had one touchdown in seven games. I kinda see Devante as the fornet of wide receivers where he's getting on not in the style but like in the target totals he's seen like just the potential and the lack of production from a touchdown standpoint. Right this is the week I think. It's GonNa turnaround turnaround especially because he's playing the New York giants who have given up the second most fantasy points the wide receivers the season. So I like this game for Davonte. He had his first touchdown last week. You gotta find a new slant. Everyone can't be lettered for that. Who Else I duNNo? Everyone's letter for that. But but I do love. This is actually very jealous with this because there is no one of the giants that can cover devante good news news. You can put them in your lineup. You don't have to be jealous. You can have them. Anybody can share. Everybody gets onto atoms. Yeah and giant. I have no idea who's who's GonNa cover the also. The packers got creamed embarrassed. and I think anytime rogers gets embarrassed. He's going to have a big game and the only person that he trust those devante Adams because all these other backers receivers. They're all like they're but they're all getting one or two catches maybe three and a game but it's like Jay Kuro Valdez scantly. Geronimo Alison like lazard. Like all all these guys. They're kind of floating. Around the periphery. The only people getting consistent looks though is devante and Aaron Jones and Jamaal Williams depending on agenda game and everyone someone else's just sit there and just like running routes but devante still the only one who is chemistry with him and that is going to no one in the giants secondary's chemistry. So that's a problem. Do you guys by. So I've I've seen this voting around a little bit on twitter the The ewing theory with Davante Adams how the packers were just a lot more efficient for the ball around a lot more when when Adams was out and now that they're back now that he's back Rogers just funneling him targets all game long and they don't look nearly as good no. I think you're better with Devante. Atoms 'cause laid the forty niners. I think that's what change okay. Dick boasts a hitting Aaron. Rogers in the face with his chest. Is the problem. Personally I mean it does feel like outcomes razor a little bit so I I don't know I I don't think that's it's the divine a shiny object distracting Aaron Rodgers. That'd be convenient. I just love a good ewing theory so I was just throw throw it out there. Well my favorite. Let's not this this is going to be a wormhole so as you're actually going home for Thanksgiving you know. Maybe we're going home so who someone someone we just went big. Who is someone? You're going home on this week. Yeah I'm staying away from Jimmy Garoppolo. The forty niners going up against the Ravens this week. We've seen how good the ravens have looked both offensively and defensively You know they've just been really really strong secondary of late with Marcus. Peters is been a huge addition Asian for them they got Jimmy Smith back. MARLA humphries elite shutdown cornerback Everything is just going really really right for the Ravens right now. And I'm I'm not saying that the forty niners are not going to be competitive in this game. They could be for sure. But I just don't think it's going to be a huge day for Garoppolo in particular So eight grand. I'm definitely just kinda looking at a different option in that one and we so going back. The last five defenses that the forty niners faced so the first the last four defenses. The Forty niners faced have been twenty third or worse versus opposing quarterback. So in other words they face a pretty light slate of quarterbacks over last the month plus Baltimore's going into this match up bring seventh against quarterbacks and I think that's going up at this point and we've seen yeah I mean I don't need to get too deep into what the Ravens have been doing. But they've made very good. quarterbacks look bad over the last month plus and so yeah. I'm just Kinda staying away from Garoppolo this week. That's a great call. Because their last few games I mean obviously they played the cardinals twice. So I mean the criminals are I believe. Give up the most points to finish the quarterbacks the seahawks secondary's you know is not bad but certainly not. It's not even average yet it's improving but it had been very bad for a long time and then the Ravens Secondary's just absolutely lights out because because they what I'm interested in is the ravens blitz more than any other team in the League and they've got Matthew Jude on off the edge who bill Barham will actually just highlighted him as one of the. Maybe the most underrated player all on defense their secondary. I mean went from really deep to being injured to now. It's just absurdly deep again. You've got free playing borderline like maybe like second team. All pro football cornerback. Marcus Peters now is free to range again way. Back closer to the impact did with the chiefs than the Ramsey interception on football earl. Thomas aww they forgot to mention earl which has sacrileges for me but yeah basically what they're doing though. Is there blitzing honestly. It's kind of like the way the Patriots Lean on their secondary and they go coverage zero on those blitzes. The Ravens don't quite do that exactly but they blitz so much because they know their secondary so good and the niners have had issues attack. uh-huh Joe Staley has been in a kind of in and out the last few weeks but when he played he got crushed by Geneva and cloudy so Michael. Crunchy is one hundred percent like the forty niners are are vulnerable on the offensive line and blitz. So not sure Jimmy G. will have time and Jimmy G. is not great under pressure. Yeah he's been making a few questionable decisions pull that way and then he also has just. I mean they're banged up. kittle is an awesome player. But he's playing basically on my cup broken foot or ankle or something And then you know they just got issues receiver position manual sanders has been really banged up so I don't know it just it doesn't look like a great great matchup for Garoppolo to me. I concur although that game is GonNa be football porn. Oh It's GonNa be fun as account flex that the Senate football. I don't think it's possible my go on some of them going home on this week. Is Nick Chubb against the steelers. I feel really bad about this because I love Nick. But he's the third most expensive running back on this slate and blessed two months. Nick Shove has been a high floor. Guys never had under nine points but he's got higher than thirteen points just twice in the last two months and the steelers are an excellent defense chubs huge mashups this year. Basically come against pretty bad teams with the exception of Actually the ravens and that was like three or four so when they're really banged up and we're completely different team honestly and just has not been doing that much since and Nick has not been get ya it when you're the third most expensive running back it's kind of either suggesting you're going to get all of the touches. Your offense which is not the case anymore Kareem hunt or it's a really good matchup. This is neither Kareem Hunt is there and also the steelers are pretty bad matchup for running back I understand. The browns beat family two weeks ago. But I mean I would rather splurge slightly more to get Derrick Henry. ORCH spend a a little less to get Aaron Jones who maybe touching slightly less than trump in this game. But he's a way better match up against the giants so I I'm I'm out on the trump this press. It's it's funny I think we're on the same wavelength this week because I had him pencil in two and then I changed my answer but yeah so to for to Danny I like these. I like these choices. Beautiful Craig. Who's someone you're going home or are you going home for Thanksgiving? I am going home for Thanksgiving. Where where's home Craig? Bay Area Nice. That's why hates Jared Goff because Jerry got uh-huh Craig himself doesn't like the cold and you know you hate things that you see in yourself. Why he hates jared Goff's from also from the North Bay in ability to withstand the cold? Well the the actual reason is because I'm from the East Bay and Jerry Goddess from the North Bay from Marin so that's the problem I gotta take breaks new CECRIC. Nobody who's not from northern California for new cares about the difference. Well that's how it works for any city. Anyone lives in no one cares about North Philly south philly like it's just that's for New York City because everyone obviously cares about. We're the lower east side is today's want me to talk to you. About like the differences between Redmond. Kirkland and in Bellevue though I think we should get back to football and west Seattle Eto. Yeah okay No Craig who. Are you going home on for the purpose of this metaphorical exercise where we highlighted expensive player. That you don't think worth money. I am metaphorically going home on Cooper Cup on the rams who just got Shit House last night by the Ravens Kube Recovery made it cremated. Satisfies ties don't Cooper Cup is the fourth most expensive wide receiver on draftkings and although that made sense six weeks ago it just doesn't anymore more in the last five weeks he had one blow up two hundred plus yard game but besides that he said total of fifty three zero fifty seventeen and then last night coup cups targets. And they're not there anymore. The first five weeks average twelve point six a game in the last six games. He's only averaged seven and he's just not in the same category as tyreek Hill. Davante onto atoms Godwin Evans. which are the guys price at the top on fantail this week so I'm GonNa wait and see if he can come back to where he used to be but right now yeah? Yeah Ain't worth it man. The rams offense is just it's sad. How far how far they farm and they were in the fricken super bowl last year their offensive line looks in shambles? Golf afflicts super inaccurate. Yeah I'M GONNA I'm just GONNA jump ahead to my galaxy brand. I'm just GONNA pull it up right now. We're doing it now. Okay Fair I can see a world where I don't mind supercup now. That sounds my galaxy. Brain was jared Goff Rolling against the cardinals. This week You know that might not get that. Yeah that might not sound John. Smart because Jared Goff the last time he had more than seven fantasy points in a game. The world's series was still happening. So that's you know maybe it's not a great idea but the cardinal's defense disallowing the most fantasy points to quarterbacks Eddie team in the League They are by a significant margin or so like they are not just thirty seconds. They are thirty-second by five. Points per game. It is absurd so this is the first game between Sean mcvay and Cliff Kingsbury if you remember they when the cardinals does high cliff Kingsbury they famously put that he was friends with Sean. mcvay in the press release and then deleted it and then hide the tweet but obviously people screen shot at it. So it's still exists. Shout it to Kevin Clark for being ahead on that destroy effect but anyway the rams could shred the cardinals obviously the rental of low ownership after got just straight embarrassed on. Primetime TV. The last two weeks I could see Cooper Cup having a decent game but I also agree with Craig that he's probably overpriced for this but I could see him going off because Patrick Peterson's probably going to be on the outside Arou- surrounding like Robert Woods if he plays or even Like I I feel like if Cooper working primarily from the slot the rob the cardinals. Don't have good cornerback. I mean yeah. The they've shown time and time again. They can't stop anybody this year. So this is this is a good contrary in slash galaxy. Great idea like this up. Yeah Yeah I'm not saying like four Cooper Cup Craig Absorb love your spot. It's okay I can't I cannot believe you have does here. No more than seven fantasy points since October. Twenty seventh. Yes yeah. That's probably the argument against that. is their offense. I mean but that is just. That's that's again. We'll we've beaten this ad nauseam but again and again. This is kind of argument for Craig Gets Cooper Cup but Yeah I can't highlight enough that of pro football focus qualifying blockers among guards guard. There's like sixty four so guards and the rams are like they're starting guards with two of the bottom five. Yeah it's just there and now they're mixing matching people playing out of position Russian. It no thing works. They have rookies at right guard. And right it's all a disaster. Just look so mentally shot. Like golf looks shook toddy early at no one looks like they're having a good time. Yeah absolutely actually the thing that that was very very noticeable last night and obviously a blowout. So it's like this is going to happen but it was such in interesting contrast because the ravens were having the best time they were having the time of their life tomorrow was like dancing in between plays I know like in the huddle on that note. The thing that blew the balloon blew my mind like this galaxy brain. But I've really found a turning point was there was a moment where jared goff had to. I don't remember it's thirty. Eight or twelve. The basically the Ravens adjusted their look. Defensively pre-stamped golf tried to adjust and then was about to take a penalty. Like delay of game. You couldn't get the snap off in time. And mcvay took a time out and like was yelling at him and McVeigh's usually like a pretty mild as it if with golf on the field. He wasn't yelling like screaming. But so you could tell like basically he was talking underneath the the call sheet but the cameras to the size you could see his mouth moving. He was so angry and I was like like. Wow this team is off the goddamn rails all right so you know. I've talked myself out of this no cooper. You're right Craig completely come all the way around. It's just too expensive. No Jared Goff. What bag Durga off now? It was a galaxy brain. But I've talked so they're out of my own Galaxy Kershaw stick stick the galaxy brain decay. Go for me this week. I'm going with Portland Sundays. The broncos gone against the chargers. He's sixty six hundred now a logic would obviously dictate to avoid send this week after. He posted a meager three point. Two fantasy he points with a eight target one. Catch twenty seven yard line last week. It also doesn't help that. He sprained his ankle in the game. And Kinda was a little bit banged up. We also so don't really know who the quarterback is going to be. Okay so where are we going with this this is. This is a good galaxy. GRINS sprained ankle quarterback. Well Yeah it's unclear whether it's GONNA be Locker Brandon Allen who was absolutely atrocious last week and it's also by the way. This is also a bad match up for Portland. Fifth the fifth best team the chargers Oregon wide receivers this year and fancy. He's likely to draw Casey Hayward good corner. However let's turn this into galaxy brain sentence? Good as hell. He's been remarkably Arkansas's consistent this season despite the terrible quarterback play. You know basically just quarterback proof for the most part apart from last week obviously and his usage. It's number last week. Were actually very very strong off the charts. In fact he posted a whopper which is from the air yards. Dot Com website waited opportunity rating. It combines air a yards and mark yards market share in target Sharon heavily It waits targets here a little bit more because that could be a little bit more important but he his whopper of one point zero one and was best among all players. He had thirty two percent target share. So I had eight targets. Seventy six percent air yard share on the team so they were looking to him. They just I couldn't get it figured out. I think that he's due for positive aggression in that sense. I was eight targets one catches. It's not probably going to happen every week. So that's my galaxy brain corden Sun's GonNa Bounce back this week even though it's it looks really bad on paper. I just love it and I think he's that good of a player that he's GonNa. He's GonNa overcome kind of the circumstances around him. Yeah once you got to the Walker I definitely feel galaxy brain personally to crack. Here's your bottom line. Usage is just really really strong is the point so there's still looking to him a lot down the field and I think he's GonNa Bounce back beautiful cruiser Galaxy Brennan the week. Andy Dalton I I love this one Andy Dalton gels already is starting for the bengals this week. He is the cheapest quarterback on Vandal. He is tied with guys like chase. Lytton it's did you say who John Walters and trace mcsorley trace mcsorley. You guys wait until they trace. mcsorley is the same cost candy. Adult third string quarterback so as you guys know the team is chased lytton on. I don't know Josh Josh Wolford. He's the third string quarterback for the Ram. Yeah wait wait. You found a glitch in the Matrix. This is incredible. I under yeah. It's insane so we're going with Andy Dalton this week Hold these also just good like week one at four hundred eighteen yards and two touchdowns against the seahawks. The next week he had three hundred eleven yards and a touchdown in two touchdowns against the niners defense They're playing the jets which jets have been pretty good as of late but more than anything. This is just read rifle auditioning for a new team now. And he's going to be slinging it. I can't believe he's the same. Trace mcsorley embarrassing trace mcsorley. who was asked to like workout is like a defensive back at the columbine declined? He's literally the third string quarterback he will not play now shays literary. He's on the Jags by the way. Oh man that's good to know absolutely absolutely absolutely stunning. Wow I kick it over the trace mcsorley eighty. That is amazing. Can we talk real quick. About what the hell are the bengals doing. Why why does it make sense for them to start? Andy Dalton again decay the short answer to your question as Bengals head coach. Zack Taylor bless his heart. He's having a hard time and making us. Maybe more Lewis wasn't so bad. I think that's the lesson I have learned personally. Twenty nineteen Marvin Lewis underrated raided. I just think it's so absurd that they're they're like on track to get the number one pick like they have a good lead on the on the tank for whoever whether it's borough or chase Yang or whoever. They're on pace to do that now. They're just going to ruin it for no reason. I mean what's what's it's the point of bringing Andy Dalton Beck other than for our good fortune in. DFS All right. I have a real you open to worm her. I have a real bone to pick with this logic. Object which is not just you but I know offense I hate this logic of like. Why are they bringing Andy Dalton back they don't want to go in sixteen activities? Don't want the first pick pick like like this is something I really grinding my gears. It's like Zack. Taylor just got a head coaching job. This is the pinnacle of his career of his. Life's life's work. Do you think Zack Taylor wants to go. Owen sixteen to secure the number one pick. No exact Taylor would not want to do it. I'm talking about the Bengals as an organization like the bengals are like Mike Lombardia often called them. They're like an athletic department. They're like lowest operation. It's it's you have the ownership of Director of player personnel. It's like a college job. It's not like a real. NFL organizational setup. They have to scouts outs one hundred sure that's real but I've heard that I no disrespect to the to the fine people who work for the bengals but it's not at the scale of other teams and we should not be surprised that their long-term planning is different fair fair. Anyway anyhow. I think we can definitely We can definitely move on. I thought mashed potatoes and like all the Thanksgiving food was going to think the thing. That's set my blood pressure off this week but now that was funny. I don't know what let's go on. Middle Range sweet spot. Goldilocks teak is someone. You like is goldilocks this week. So I'm Roland with Deejay Chaka the jags going up against the worst pass defense in the NFL. The buccaneers he's sixty nine hundred. If there's one thing we've learned this year it's to play receivers when and they're going up against the buccaneers. The bucks are dead last and opposing receivers versus opposing receivers and fantasy points allowed and I think chuck has a good chance to kind of bounce back this week. Week in theory. You know the jags definitely kind of funneled their entire offense through Leonard Fournette even in the even in the passing game he I think he had like double digit plus targets in the game. AM So. I think the probably spread out a little bit more to have a good chance to do that. Against the buccaneers and I think charge Kinda bounced back. Obviously two weeks ago. He had fifteen targets so I think he's due to kind of like level off. Chuck has been fantastic. I mean Chart Digits Yorkers the best receiver from Lsu in the NFL. Well chew on that. It's been a really crazy like he wasn't good as a rookie and people kind of I can't remember exactly how people viewed it but I think it was thought it was is a little bit of a of a reach. When he was picked second round he was a good like he did well at the senior bowl and all that but he was definitely looked out of his depth as a rookie at drops he was just like a fast Aski- this is a good note for next year because when there are offenses that are not just bad but I mean awful like utterly abysmal? You kind of have to throw the sample out like for certain players that didn't perform you have to just trash it. That applies for example. Kenyan drake have thirty fantasy points. Whatever two weeks after leaving the Dolphins Dj may apparently look look what happens when Blake Bortles is not your Goddamn quarterback? TJ Shark Great Football Player. The jags built a whole offense. Just to mitigate the fact that Blake bortles would be bad in college and I. It's informative you look at the teams last year with Arizona Cardinals Christian Kirksey also really good. So I it's it's worth going into next year. That don't just discard players with the switch teams or whatever that have been awful situations and I think you're absolutely right and has been. I mean he's just been really fun to watch. He's one of my favorite players. Watch this year you know. He's just really good at the back shoulder. Catch setting guys up setting up. quarterbacks to make catch is the catch at like contested past you know catch point or whatever and yeah. He's just really fast. Obviously just I like watching him. He's fun player and so I'm on him this week. especially just because of that. Matchup is is really juicy. Michael this week just pretty simple mile sanders. He's just really cheap. He's not been doing a ton but he's been getting a lot of snaps with Jordan Howard out. The last two weeks mal sanders with Jordan Howard. Hours been getting eighty five percent of their snaps. APPs against New England and then eighty four percent of their snaps against the seahawks obviously didn't do much for the eagles. The Eagles offense as a whole was pretty awful. We recording this again on Tuesday so we don't know right. Now if Jordan Howard is gonNA play I still like Mile Sanders in this game. If Jordan's Howard is out because they're playing the dolphins and the eagles are better than the dolphins even if null says Adler is still out. If alshon Jeffery is still out even if lane Johnson there right tackle still. I'm still in on mile standards because the dolphins are so talent baron that I am not exaggerating agitating. The Eagles backup. Players are still better than the dolphins at almost every position there and it may not be playing well but as long as Carson Wentz in this game then that running the mile it's GonNa be a lot of touches. He's fifty eight hundred. He's he's one of like. I can barely look a top thirty most expensive running back this week. I just think it's a it's a no-brainer join Howard's out. I like it a lot of mileage out of miles. Great Matchup. Great Matchup Craig. WHO's your goldilocks? devante Parker sticking with the same. I think you're on brand as always I am. You know I actually feel like I haven't endorsed Devante Parker as one of my picks a long time I was just kind of mentioned him. Willy Nilly but I'm actually going within this week Devante has been. He's been good a real example of consistency for what receivers this year. You said fifty yards and nine straight weeks and the last four weeks. He's fourth in yards amongst wide receivers and for the dolphins. Jim Grant and Albert Wilson both left last week with injuries. Kim Kim Grant carted off with an ankle. Injury and Albert Wilson hurt his ribs as we said earlier. It is Tuesday so we're not sure about that. I would assume became grant might not play. He was carted off with an ankle injury on the plane. The Eagles else they'd given up the fifth most fantasy points wide receivers. This season fits is going to be slinging it devante going to be catching 'em another fifty is in the bag ten street. No love it. Kids talented we talked about. Oh don't trust one bad year for people on the cardinals like Christian Kirk. Well don't trust the first four bad years for Devante I think that's a really. It's really true though. I know he's always been talented. devante Parker and Ryan Tannehill or basically the same person. We've been saying what happened for years and years and years so then they split and suddenly both got it. Maybe it's like a bad breakup like they both needed like they both flourish separately. Big Devante week for me. Anyone named Devante man. I'm interested posted. I'll be looking forward to seeing what has devante Parker going forward he. He's under contract next year with the dolphins but like he's I think he's probably he played himself into like having more value than I think anyone thought he had before the season he would've been a good cheap patriots sign for the season. The dolphins can't let them go the dolphins of no no cap space. I mean sorry. The dolphins have all the cap space and no players. There's no earthly reason for them to let any more players with talent. Leave that team who needs players have to spend money on someone they might as was Ios. Keep their good ones my thoughts on the matter all right bargain player of the week. You're filling out your life. You gotta scrape the bottom of the barrel scraping this week. Going back to the bengals. I'm going with Tyler Boyd. Going up against the jets. And I'm with Craig I think that antidote and makes us offense a lot better. I just I mean Ryan Finley was just brutal title to watch Listen dose everyone on the Bengals. Bless his Heart Dalton's back and he loves targeting Boyd importantly weeks one through eight which was one Dalton Starter Boyd averaged ten point three targets per game. He had eighty two targets fifty one catches five hundred. Thirty six yards and a touchdown. He's also got the squeaky wheel narrative going for him. A little bit He complained to the coaching staff. And into the media about how he wasn't a bigger part of the offense and then he obviously became a big party often. So that we we got that Gore with him. The jets also are a good matchup. Twenty ninth against opposing receivers as Craig's. They've been getting a little bit better of late but I still think this is a good match for him. I'm guessing A.. J. Green is still going to come back even with Dalton back in the in the mix and yes I think he's going to be kind of the number one guy that offense. I would say something. But we've discussed the bengals goals far too much on this podcast. This cannot stand any more of it. I'm not thankful for them. And I want to know more space for them between my ears margin. Play the week Jamal Williams on the packers Going against the giants Believe me I'm so excited for this match up. I'll be watching this with my psychotic giants family and this is going to go terribly. Jamal Williams just like the thirtieth most expensive running back thirty first. Maybe packers are GONNA put up a lot of points. This one's really simple Williams's seeing double digit carries each of the last two weeks. Mark my words mark. My words giants inside linebacker. Alex Ogle tree is going to blow a coverage against one of the packers running backs for a touchdown. I promise the question is it will be Aaron Jones or Jamal Williams. Aaron Jones is the fourth most expensive running back on this slate. Jamal Williams like outside the top thirty. That's all it's it's like. The packers are going to score many touchdowns and I just want the cheapest packer who's likely to get them. which is Jamal Williams? That's IT I can't wait I wanNA watch. Oh we'll tree very carefully during the Alex I could rant on this forever at the Ram signed Alex Ogle tree to a contract extension in the middle of the season in like twenty seventeen seventeen four months later. They change their mind and they're like. Wow this guy sucks we gotta get him Outta here. Maze has described older podcast as saying he's like really talented amount but often looks like he doesn't know which direction the team the offense is going when coverage like he just looks lost like a child in a grocery store left by errands. Pretended they would leave without him. And it is unbelievable after a ten years basically of the giants skimping at inside linebacker and going cheap old slow to go so fast expensive not really wise at inside line and just to see this incredibly talented guy to just just blow coverage all the time you can totally over it anyway anyway. The point is that he when they trade forms like more expensive than everyone except Bobby Wagner leuke so it's fine anyway. I like them all Williams to beat Al Gogel trump pass coverage this week. Let's move on before I have an aneurism crank. Was your parking been play the week yet again. Week two I'm going with Greg Olsen the title the panthers now this is not about the nuance in advance stats on Greg Olsen. or his matchup. I'm just trying to win people money. And I think I've discovered a system system air on federal. Greg Olsen is fifty one hundred dollars. He is the eighteenth most expensive tight end amongst the tight ends more expensive than Greg. Olsen are Johnny Smith who had zero targets targets last week. Ross dwelling who played five snaps on Sunday. Eric Brown who was just sent a I R Delaney Walker who hasn't played in four weeks. I don't understand Dan. I'm going on Fan Dole. Greg Olsen had seven targets last week and five catches and he's the tide and eight. I mean yeah. So He's wow that's your. I have no retort. That is that was perfect on Craig. I don't don't get new. Should cut this from the podcast and keeps herself. Something's going on with Greg. Olsen the guy who runs the Fan Duel Lineup pricing. Just forgot about him or he hated his left left early for Thanksgiving he played him in Little League and he hates them. Yeah I guess that's what I would do. Wow all right well. Let's get to our faneuil lineup lineup of the week. We're going to use one lineup for all three of us and we can win some money. Boys get a little hot streak here yes. I felt great about this lineup. All right well you know you feel great deal once you start us off. Okay okay. I'll do that Um at quarterback we got Patrick. mahomes going up against the raiders. He's he's eighty six hundred. We liked that match. We like him coming off. The bye getting healthy Running back we got saquon Barkley as we talked about early on Do for bigger game. I'm going up against Green Bay. Who's been a very very bad run defense team this year At the other running back spot we didn't talk about Phil Linsey who has basically taken over as the workhouse workhorse. Back in the in. That offense Royce Freeman. He's out touching Royce Freeman significantly now. They've kind of I guess committed to him down the stretch run. I think they kinda had fifty fifty split during the beginning of the year. Maybe try and keep him healthy or whatever but from this point on film Lindsay's the man in Denver going up against the chargers who have not been good against voting running back so that's kind of our first three there we've got Patrick. Mahomes Barclay and Lindsey kgoradio. You WanNa keep going. Yeah for our receivers receivers were going to go with tyreek Hill and we liked games a rube love spot from homes in Hill. It's a nice little Stack that we're doing there and then we're going to add on DJ charge. We talked about been pretty consistent Tampa that is terrible against the past and then our third. We're GONNA FINISH UP Jamison crowder. Who is a target hog on the jets and yet have down week last week? We're going to exploit that and the plane. Cincinnati who suck. I think it's in well established this episode so far and speaking of that. Cheese Raiders Games. We Got Darren Waller at tight end. We talked about him last week or earlier this week. I should say with Hunter Renfro getting injured and I think that means target share for Wahler is GonNa explode going forward so that's kind of what we're looking at for this week. It's unfortunate about Hunter Renfro. But the raiders have to get something going in the chiefs just because the chiefs run by doesn't mean we can free at the past defense also awful. Yeah and then. Flexing reflects an Tyler Boyd. Because I was overruled on this and I didn't WanNA fight it. Who did you wind here? I know I just didn't want to Bengal. It's not really like this specific person as much as just like really I was like I don't Wanna I don't WanNa Watch this game but we we had to do with gotta get a Bangle Rangel boy. Bengal Boyd got angles. My God and then defense will go in. La chargers against the broncos because You know branded Allen the July who knows what else. No we're on the dice. Yeah either way. I'm happy with that. Defense drew lock or Brandon Allen absolutely thrilling to roll it back all the way. Go back home go through the whole thing patching home saquon Barkley philp Lindsey tyreek Hill. HR Jamison crowder. Darren Wall or Tyler Boyd. In the chargers I love this lineup. Who's your favorite person in this lineup? And who's the person that you think is going to ruin the whole thing for us. I love the Mahomes Hill. Stack some excited about that. The one I'm most worried about is I mean. I probably Tyler Boyd. To be honest honest he was kind of our bargain bin. Sneak them in there because we didn't have a lot of cash leftover so beautiful all right. Well I hope you guys have lovely thanksgiving. It's already already thinks Thanksgiving already happened but for the people listening but for us it has not well. We're recording on Tuesday so definitely check all the injuries and make sure in Thanksgiving limbo right now. It has not the stuck in between Schrodinger. Thanksgiving can be the name of the episode and it will not be. Let's get out. Let's get out of here. Everyone hope you already had a happy holiday. And don't forget to buy stuff on Black Friday cyber Monday. Cows do good luck with your lineup so we will see you guys next week talk.

Craig giants football jets Ravens bengals cardinals packers raiders Heart Dalton chiefs New York City rams Aaron Jones Jared Goff Barkley seahawks Patrick Peterson
The Chris and Joe Show: Quick Takes from a TNF loss

Big Blue View

19:05 min | 1 year ago

The Chris and Joe Show: Quick Takes from a TNF loss

"Are you troubled by strange hockey trades in the middle of the night do you experience feelings of dread about Nhl Free Agency have you or your family ever seen in your rheinlander scheme if the answer is yes don't wait another minute pick up your mobile device and subscribe to Lighthouse Hockey podcasts from espy nation today are courteous and efficient host and worries lighthouse hockey podcasts for New York islanders fans this was actually having a relatively good performance compared to the ways that they've looked against other competent offenses this season after a game we're going to be giving you are quick takes and our takeaways from the game right after The final play was made our gut reaction the giants defense that was just able to play a little bit a little bit faster a little bit more physical upfront than we saw against the Vikings who they were able to make plays as a whole they were able to be a little bit more consistent I think it was just an overall very good performance in that first half we just need to see those things that they were ability to make plays stop plays the line of scrimmage he made some pretty good tackles and then the one that he had in which she made a pretty clean spin move really missed having their speed on the defense especially going downhill which you know we saw both of them got pressure on Brady Ogle tree with with half because of it and ultimately just be able to move the ball more rack up some more yardage and scores more points if you're out playing them in time of possession big blue view or coming off another difficult loss for the New York giants as they fell to the New England Patriots thirty five to fourteen game in which it was kind of close at Halftime and then everything pretty much full apart from their lack of offensive production second half lack of ability to stop difference level in his performance compared to nate stupar who pretty much playing in replacement of him while he was hurt and you just saw the they just kinda picked on nate stupar and really able to do kind of what they wanted especially on the ground up until the second half this and picking that apart which I think is what we saw in the second half the Patriots made some adjustments they started going back to the IT started to go downhill if you think about it in the sense that the offense was not moving the ball and time of time possession was being dominated by the Patriots in the second because this is this is the Patriots they they're at their best making adjustments at half time figuring out what you do blitz Carter blowing past the tight end getting that strip sack that led to a touchdown so it was good to have both of those guys back and just we've really seen on defense yet this year the giants never really took advantage of mistakes like they did against the Patriots it really is going to be difficult move to make a play on Tom Brady and take him down so overall though just having him back having Lorenzo Carter back there was an agents here in I to kick things off why don't we go right into our first positive and that being it was nice to have Alec Ogle Tree and the Renzo Qarterback yet definitely had the giants the way throughout but there were instances where they looked good they were pretty stout on a significant number of running plays where they're able to sniff things out in the backfield a gash the giants in the first half they didn't let that get anywhere in the second half personally I thought that was good to see and then also the worked on the first half like the interception like the Sachs those things correlate into the second one I think we WANNA be careful stay too much away from the defense for they're playing the second half seemed to come out flat they didn't seem to have a real good feel for what the giants were going to do on defense in the first half and we saw during take advantage of that which was something I don't think obvious more element like additional element to this defense that they weren't as scarce up the middle of the field. Yeah I think we and you're listening to the Chris and Joe Show presented to you by espy nation and adjectives very quickly but before we do that we're going to take a very short commercial break this episode is brought to you by CBS sports HQ very very close at that point and it just so happened they weren't able to get any more stops after that they weren't able to move the ball offensively it's a little bit more and what we're talking about how was more noticeable in the first half was the past Russian the defensive lines shining at times wasn't a completely clean game was not perfect old Behind the line of scrimmage or right athletic scrimmage maybe a little bit yard passer so those are the types of plays that are very very important for forcing an offense into so much of sports TV nowadays full of made up trauma it's a bunch of hot takes from people who believe what they're saying just beating the same topics into the ground but CBS sports which again that led to what the final score was led to the issues that that came out in the rest of this game we're going to take a look at the real sports fans the best news of all it's free I mean free for a week or a month or if you have some special cable package it's totally completely free instead the Patriots made but like that quick little shovel pass almost a pop or I'm not quite sure what you want to call it that we saw we're at home on your apple TV Roku or fire TV it couldn't be easier download the CBS sports APP and watch CBS sports HQ TODAY PODCAST APP in any loss it's very very easy to come out here and talk about all the negative the Patriots offense from putting additional points up on the board there were also some special teams miscues they came out in this game so like we typically to do immediately Carter for the Strip sack in the touchdown there and then again Ogle tree on the blitz up the middle so I think these are all things that are positive signs for the make a strong performance happened in that second half against a legendary coach that's very good at making adjustments like that and acknowledging actionable pants that coaches where now if you want to take college football exactly as seriously as it should be taken subscribe for free on apple podcasts or in your favorite since two all the onfield action fantasy sports experts will give you the info you need to make the right calls for your lineup no fake debates no politics just sports for the first thing that needs to be pointed out was the special teams mishap the blocked punt that led to a touchdown a free seven points given to the Patriots and that was specifically because nate stupar was beat very cleanly on a he was gonna change all that it's a network that streams live twenty four seven in their coverage is just focused on the game they bring you the latest news highlights previews and reaction defense play a little bit more aggressively a little bit faster than we saw last week Alex Autry might not be the most perfect linebacker but it's still very apparent the hey I'm Spencer Hall I'm Holly Anderson I'm Ryan Nanny I'm Jason Kirk and we're the host of the shutdown full cast your tax in the first half were great had marcus golden just kind of brush Marshall newhouse assigned to get the first one at a really nice speed moved by runs on defense continually he's now a liability on special teams yeah you're the special teams guy I don't know that I've ever seen a all of bad play in sloppy performance just not being in the right position at the right time you can tell a player is not good if what's not working making those changes in readjusting making shore they're back to what they're capable of doing another thing seen it have you ever seen anything like that I don't think I can really think of an example where I've seen that it's just it's just an example wrestling too unfashionable pants worn middle school we also do talk about college football every now and then like mascot fights announcers fleeing the booth early and unfair events now they just need to kind of keep them up but also need the offense is help for that that defensive touchdown that they were able to score off of that incredible passer in a situation like that on special teams they can't find a way to be in the right position yeah and just blocking like that getting blown up like that it's just not good another negative that is noticed from this game was Daniel Jones is overall performance three interceptions is is move and sacked by Lorenzo Carter Marcus golden being the one who scored the touchdown that was very promising early in the game because it set the giants up to be yeah and that's something he has seemed to have a tendency to do which is probably because he's a rookie he wants to make the play he's excited four receivers to work open and they're just not working open otherwise on the other hand we've also seen him throwing into coverage a lot since he to look at the tape so first things first that needs to be acknowledged and you might know I am a special teams advocate bull rush move by Brandon bolden who completely pushed him back was not able to get into any position actually blocked brandon and needs to part was pushed back so quickly lives and we're going to highlight a few of them Wanna go into the deep dive like we always do that's when we're going to be a little bit more keenan detailed on specific things after we have the chance worse defense and a significantly worse secondary so he needs to learn what to do when actually facing a competent defense with A. It's a mistake all quarterbacks make on occasion but eventually they learn kind of developed that clock in their head feel the defense and that Riley Debt Dixon was continuing his punt steps and kick the ball right into the back of his head so nate stupar continues to be a liability even when he's not punt get blocked by the protectors head when you say you gotta use your head that is not what coaches I mean it I mean I don't know that I've ever has been on the field he might have the highest rate of throwing into coverage of any quarterback in the NFL that's partly on the John for everybody you don't even log it just sports for real sports fans just open the CBS sports APP and watch anytime from anywhere on your phone because he was playing to very very good secondary's with very very good corners that were good at tracking and falling receivers very very closely so he did not have and I think another thing that goes in line with this the better illustrate the situation is we've seen a lot more than the last two games I performance this season wove able to better dissect that after looking at the tape but one thing that was very noticeable it was just him holding onto the ball way too long all and held the ball and that was when Carter got his strip sack I don't I don't think he ever felt the pressure coming and all to find him in those situations and they can develop that kind of chemistry if you have a run a young quarterback developing quarterback and a young explosive running the defensive coordinator in very very good cornerbacks because if it doesn't look like it's GonNa be there you can't sit there and hold the ball and you also can't force it into a situation there's not really any available check down for him it just seems like whatever running backs in there has not been an option if things are not available axe but that also has a lot to do with the offensive scheme but I think part of this is just going to be the maturation process of Jones just a third and long type of situation that really impressed me was that the giants seemed to learn they didn't make the same kind of a halftime you do see them kind of sitting on those those swing passes back behind the line of scrimmage and then collapsed down on them I would like to see more check down connect quick passing game hitting the running backs as receivers and then they were able to take their shots down the field the patriots definitely his coaches they need to scheme him some more open looks guys like Brady or Pat Mahomes they're never throwing into coverage and yes they're great quarterback line of scrimmage we saw that a lot with saquon Barkley who actually had more yards after the catch than he had total yardage last year or final point this is that actually I think a big part of that will be figuring out how to consistently produce on offense taking advantage of those opportunities on offense options but check down options that actually have a chance of generating positive yards not make the running back have to pick up five yards before eating gets close games and not being the one that is dominated in these situations is just something that this this team needs to figure out yeah sometimes you just gotta learn to throw away lift of play another down you know we have seen him hold the ball and hold the ball and hold the ball and against Washington 'cause Djibril peppers had picked six and then ten points again against Minnesota and then seven points yeah they scored seventeen points week one fourteen points week to then they had the thirty two in week three on offense they only scored

CBS Chris Joe Show five yards
Big Blue Bonus: State of the Giants

Big Blue View

58:02 min | 2 years ago

Big Blue Bonus: State of the Giants

"Hey, guys, on this episode go over the state of the giants. We look at some off season moves how those of played out what's going on now and the future outlook of the team apologies in advance. There's a couple quick background appearances from Chris's dog. So we try to take those out as much as we could. It still little bit in the background, but it shouldn't take up too much. So a hope that doesn't really distract you from this episode. So let's get into. Hello and welcome to the big. We've you podcast. I am dam Zuta joined along by Chris flung, and we are coming with a bonus episode this week that I don't know, might not feel like too much of a bonus as we get into it because we're going to be talking about the state of the giants. This is a team that is one in five right now. There is not a lot going, right. We're going to kind of talk about how we got here, what the current prospects look like and and where they go from here. This is this is going to be a quaint episodes how you feel about this. Chris state of the giants confusion, the giants look and feel like a deeply deeply confused franchise. They don't know who they are. They don't seem to know where they're going, and they don't seem. To have much Rick Lewis about how to get there. How's that for an opening thought. All right. Didn't it on a good note the plan and we can get into whatever the plan was has has not worked to this point, but we'll see. We'll see how that goes before we get into that. Let's take a brief detour into some Rosser news that that came out. The giants had been tinkering with like the back half of of the roster really since training camp. And a lot of that happens again on Tuesday morning. Couple players puts IRR Cody Latimer to IRA Armstrong to I r rant Haley cornerback at Penn State got promoted from the practice squad wide receiver. Benefactor, formerly of the Denver Broncos was added and they also promoted linebacker. And I sincerely hope. I don't butcher this Kimmy. Liguori from the practice squad. He has the never go just a just a whole bunch of Rosser moose at the bottom of the roster Haley is actually a guy pretty excited about. He was someone I liked come out. He was someone the giants put a lot of effort into signing as an undrafted free agent, and then he didn't make the initial Rosser was then signed to the practice squad. He can play the slot. He's five nine, but he can play outside the. We'll see Dante Dion also cut as part of that move. So so halio slide in is probably the fourth cornerback guess it'd be w Webb is still the starter in a slot for now a, so we'll see how that goes. But yeah, just a lot of Rosser turnover. And that has been that's been some par for the course ally since ghetto. Men really took over and I don't know, maybe maybe that's something we can kind of talk about here is this was kind of a Rosser we were told and whether we believe. It or not. Some of us believed it west than others that this was a Rosser that was going to compete. But also it was a roster that was completely getting turned over at the bottom half event like almost every day from training camp on. So I'm not quite sure how those two ideas coexist with each other and how they were supposed to. But clearly they have not. Yeah, you know, the the giants have made so many moves sense. They've got him and was hired that. At each step. You could start of see the also the rationalization for each move in evacuate in and of itself. But if you take a step back and you look you, I know myself in more than a few people just about every day the off season. What what is Dave Gettleman doing? What is the plan? And after he asked that one hundred or so times get kinda, have to wonder, is there a plan? That's definitely a fair question. And yeah, you can look at a lot of these moves and have a rationalization for each move individually, but fitting them together. It's just it doesn't really go into any cohesive plan. It's a sometimes just feels like it's it's making moves to make moves, but I think what we will, we will get this. I think we can go back in to find out where the giants are right now and why they are way we can go kind of all the way back to before. Yeah, we, we can go back to that, but maybe we don't need to go that far. If we stick to this season, we can go back to just the process of hiring Gettleman which well, the acquis last December, right to me at the time, even seemed flawed. And I think we can kinda say it was it was a hiring process that I'm not totally sure was in open process. I mean, they, they hired Ernie Coursey to be a consultant. He recommended Dave gentleman who he's worth with forever, and that's just kind of knew how the NFL works a year friends with somebody they get hired to help hire for a job and the the friends, and wherever you're familiar with gets put up to to the front of the line. And that's kind of how the Gettleman hiring process worked. Yeah, I who. Who else did the giants interview? They interviewed Louis Riddick and Kevin rooms who was the interim general general manager who had basically been with the giants. The third longest behind Gettleman and Jerry Reese. I would agree was deeply flawed process because Gettleman. Sitting here, we can't say whether or not he was the correct choice because they basically didn't really look at anyone else. They gunman really didn't face any competition and again, and that's basically where they started. They, I suppose they could say they wanted to get their general manager in first. So he could hire his coach and they didn't want to miss out on any of the good coaching candidates. But they didn't hire Pat Shurmur until I got something to tell them about that. Yeah. Until basically until the last minute, something else that hampered the process is an probably we're going to talk about this subject way more was the presence of Eli manning. I don't think anyone who had replacing ally as their plan a would have been seriously considered, and I think that's something that probably cut down on the prospects of people they were going to hire as general manager and probably the people who they were going to hire as head coach. Yes, they charm era was definitely reacting to the fire storm. That came from the also say, half-baked decision to bench ally manning by Ben mcadoo. I'm not saying it was entirely wrong decision. But doing it for Gino Smith who nobody. Thought he was going to be an answer going forward. He was going to be a guy. The giants could basically turn the keys of the franchise over to even as a bridge, but they also never. Back then gave Davis Webb even the practice reps that they could have even taken a look at him. So it was just a flawed process on based on a flawed premise, and that's a bad way to start the next era of your franchise. Yeah, everything around that just was not handled the correct way moving on from you. I would not have been no the wrong way, but of course, I don't think we have to get too far into no, whatever. Macadear had decided he was going to do going into that raiders game and then deploy manning at the half whether they were up or not. It was it was just a whole mess. So you know that that led to Makhdoom when Jerry Reese the getting Licko that led to Dave Gettleman and then ED's. As soon as Gettleman came in he, he started reworking this roster into what he wanted. And I think even as we just look back into into some of the moves he did, no, you can see there was there's a flawed process behind really a lot of it. And before we even get into the draft, some of the some of the free agency and some of the trades that he made. And as we look at this team right now, it is a team that is one in five. It is clearly a team that is going to need to rebuild. Do not let anyone tell you this was the plan? No, it was not. The giants did not take the route they did and draft Barkley's second overall. So they would be bad enough to take a quarterback again this year. That was not the plan this was supposed to be supposed to. I'll put that in quotes because a lot of people could have told you it was not, but. But this was supposed to be a Rosser that was going to compete or at least be around five hundred. Although being five hundred probably would have been I case scenario because they would have just been lamed up just kind of everywhere. So ending up seven, nine or eight probably the worst case scenario for this team, but this was supposed to be a team that was going to compete. You don't take running back second overall. If that's not the case, you don't trade for someone like Alec Ogle tree who has a massive cap hit as an inside linebacker. You don't do that. If this isn't going to be a team, that's that's going to compete in the near future. And I think we can as we look into some of these specific moves, I think we can look at this will trade because I think that was another one of those really flawed process trades. Now I'm all for trading draft picks for veteran players. I think right now that is the biggest market inning. Agency in the NFL. I have no idea how to value veteran players by draft picks. And typically you can get a very good player for a pick that you would not have been able to get that same type of player. It happened looking what the eagles did with like half their roster, honestly. But right now, Michael Bennett, Michael Bennett is on their team. They traded a fifth round pick for him. That is incredible. But with those type of trades, you want to get the type of player that cannot be replaced. And another thing when you just look at this type of Rosser like inside linebacker and running back or two positions, you can get easily replaceable production later in the draft. So trading a fourth and seventh for Ogle tree who his needed his cap number redone because it was going to be ten billion dollars. And when you took his his Rosser bonus and push that back into. Two years that pushed his cap number down this year, but it pushes more money into future years. And what the Rams did is they have his Russ or bonus for next season for so for the twenty nineteen season was guaranteed on the third day of the twenty eighteen season. So now that's more guaranteed money for Ogle tree, which is either going to have him be in eleven million dollar cap hit next year, which is going to be the third highest among inside linebackers or the giants have to restructure his contract again, which pushes more money now into twenty twenty, which will keep Ogle tree on the roster for three years. Nashes paying a lot of money for a position that does not need to be paid that much money. And I think that's when you look at a lot of the moves. That's that's what has happened for this roster to. Yeah. Well, the and the giants made the conscious decision to go with the old school option in Dave Gettleman and the old school is just it doesn't have much regard for efficiency. We have that picture of him miming a stats nerd while he mocks analytics. Yeah. While he matched in analytics, it's at something I took personal. Thank you. Yes. You much more than I absolutely recognize it. I as a viable valuable tool. I just have never gotten along well with statistics, going back to grade school math class. Right. But yeah, that was that was in his press conference after the draft talking about taking a running back second ever all end, the positional value that comes with it. And he says he doesn't consider positional value took the best player. And I guess we can now go into that drafts when we look at Barclay and very good player, no-one no-one who was against the pick. Again, I've said this on the podcast, many times already, no one who gets the Markley second overall was against Barkley like personally, no one was saying, well, there were a couple there. There were a couple who who didn't leave that as a runner. He was good enough to justify being above like Sony, Michelle, or the runaround, whose name momentarily, slipped my mind. Darius Geiss dairies, where I don't know who those people are, but they were wrong. But also, yeah. So I mean you, you can look at the boom and bust thing, and maybe not like that, but his ability as a receiver like he is a good player, but having a great player at running back is just not how you build a good team. Twenty-first-century and again, we should. We can look at this and I think we can talk about whether they should have taken a quarterback and new. Maybe we can get into that, but taking a quarterback was not the only option trading back was also an option and that probably would have been the preferable option, especially if they were saying we are going to go with Eli manning in this season, the fine if that was what was going to be decided on from ownership on down fun than you could've traded back and you get more picks. You could have gotten more picks in twenty eighteen more picks in twenty nineteen and built a roster that since you have already basically admitted does not have a lot of death just by the amount you are turning this roster over on. So more picks in twenty eighteen more pigs in twenty. Nine thousand nine would have set this team better for the future. Then arguably even a. Quarterback at number two would have, but Gettleman did not even apparently consideration or tain that option came out and said after the draft that they never even bothered calling the giants about the second overall pick because they knew it really wasn't for sale. That's insane. That is that is a process and that's not even flawed process. That is, that is a detrimental process. How couldn't have even considered trading back to get more value from that pick to help the Tim more in the long run that's in say, it's still insane to me it another one of those efficiency things. I believe when it comes to finding value there have been studies on this. I was actually reading into it as I wrote my piece yesterday about taking advantage of the NFL's trade inefficiency at the Trade Desk. Online trading, mid or late round picks for established veterans young veterans who still have upside who are still on their rookie contracts who could help the team for years to come. But the teams they have now don't really know how to use them or have no value them. Trading back is generally the most efficient way to as long as you make smart picks with the picture acquire and don't make stupid trades it basically the most efficient way to run a draft. You get a much better chance of finding a star. If you have two picks that are only slightly less likely to land a starter, then you're one high peck, yeah, you just you get more chances to take those now on not totally sold on in a decree, violent idea of continually trading back and trading that. But when. Draft or two drafts, but that's fine. Every draft pick is a lottery ticket and your best chances come with more picks with a at least similar chance of paying off. Right? And it's it's something that guys of Gilman's era do not completely understand. They look at a player, they fall in love with the player and go, no, this is the guy we want, and that's exactly what they did with Barclay. There was no talking Gettleman end the giants out of the Barclay pick at number two. And again, he's a very good player for the Wong term of the giants. And now, especially since we see this is not a good team, this is a team that is going to have to rebuild by the time you do that. Barkley who is already one of the top paid running backs in the league is now going to be going into his second contract where he's going to make even more money. And if you're talking about inflated cat hits now that are holding the giants back, wait till they have to face, whether they're going to pay their running back fourteen or fifteen million dollars a year. That's not. Going to help either l. five years down the line, they could be considering having to pay him seventeen or eighteen million dollars a year. I was going to little conservative on that, but yet by as the cap hits, if as if he starts resetting in future years, yeah, if he resets the record books like it looks like he is on pace to be doing. He could have an effect on his position similar to what? Oh, Beckham had on the wide receiver position. That's something we're going to have to consider it to be a potential reality eventually. Yeah. And you see guys like girly. He just got his big contract for years fifty. Seven point five million and forty five billion guarantees. That's he's going to have a seventeen point two, five million dollar campaign in twenty twenty. And that goes down to thirteen points you in twenty twenty one and fourteen point to you in two thousand twenty two. But those are the type of numbers you're going to be looking at for a second Barclay contract and meant that's just. Going to be a lot of cap space for a running back again. He can be really good, but if the other pieces are in place on the offense, then then that's don't matter. Just not gonna work. Yeah. Now, if they could get the other pieces in place, if they could have a an off season where they get on the ball and start hitting even just singles and doubles to mix metaphors because apparently that's what we do talking about sports and they could build an environment where a young quarterback on a rookie deal could play like a franchise player and have very good environment for that, which could let them pay Berkeley eventually. But that's an awful tight rope to walk, especially for team that hasn't shown that level of foresight. Right? And it's going to be incredibly tight rope to walk. So when you look at what the giants are frightened now, what did file when yet football outsiders has them. With a ten point, nine percent chance at the top pick, which is the fourth highest are that's behind Arizona, Oakland and San Francisco. They have a forty seven point, seven percent chance at a top five pick. And that's the fifth highest, really. They're not even the favorites, four, like the top, pick if they were going to go in for a quarterback there. So now you're looking at even if these teams in front of them aren't gonna, take quarterbacks, and if you look it, the teams who are in front of Arizona just took one who knows what Oakland is going to do. Their Jon Gruden might throw a billion dollars at Peyton Manning to come back and play for him. It fits his age demographic that he's looking for. But severe Cisco has Garoppolo buffalo just traded up for Josh Allen, whether that was a good decision or not. We don't have to get into that, but you know, they have their quarterback. Indianapolis is. Right behind them. They have a quarterback Cleveland, but there's teams that could still trade up. The giants are not guaranteed to get their quarterback where they're drafting. And if that's the case, now you have to trade up for a quarterback, sue using more draft resources to get this quarterback than you would have. If you had just, you know, maybe taken a guy to or if you had treated back last year, you now would have that ammunition to use to trade up. You can also use that and again, the giants are without a third round pick in this draft. And I will say I am okay with that. I was completely appro taking Sam Beal in the supplemental draft. Yes. He's probably someone who's talent you were not denting with that third round, pick in the normal drafts, so I'm fine with that. But you have to take that into account if that's something they have to eventually trade up for you. Now don't have that third round pick as amunition so the giants are not guaranteed. Come away with a quarterback this year either. No. And they could say they wanna use next year to look at Kyle Letta assuming they fold tent on ally manning and either he retires at the end of the year or they cut him and he retires at the end of the year or retires in two thousand nineteen. You know, they could use next year to try and see what Kyle let has. You know they're very high on him and he is in a terrible fit for what Pat Shurmur wants to do on offense. You know, he's kind of a hot rod version of case keenum, but they could do that and kick that can little bit further down the road again and maybe get into the twenty twenty draft which could have who knows just in Herbert, might stay in college, and then you could also have to a at Alabama or Jake from at Georgia. Now, two guys. I've had my eye on since last year now. I really like them and you also never quite know who's going to emerge. People weren't talking about Carson Wentz two years before he was the second pick in his draft. It's going to be interesting how they go about this quarterback decision because if they do go with law Leta and and they give him a chance to play this year and they go into next year with him and if he's not good, I don't think Doman insurer get a chance to pick the next quarterback now that might actually worse the giants to do what they probably should have done when they fired. Jerry Reese and Ben mcadoo in that is well and truly clean house and set the franchise on a new. Course instead of retreating back to, you know, the glory days of your, there's a lot of decisions that are going to be made in this off season and they all go back to to what really happened this past offseason. 'cause that set everything up the kind of playing around with trying to get younger and set this team up for the future while also trying to contend again to not let anyone tell you this team was not trying to contend this year because they were this was not the plan now, some of us and I will say I was one of them saw this coming. This was not a good team. No, this was not the plan and so we're really going to have to look at what this team is going to be going forward because there are there are big contracts going forward, made early soul. Going forward, they've got Patrico mommy going forward. They're they're locked in based on their contract, got July manning, and then they have to figure out what to do with a Landon Collins. And sterling shepherd will be up right after him, right. So I was playing around a lot with with some of the cab numbers, and if the giant really like really wanted to strip down Jew could take almost every big contract off these books put, but you're left with with not. Hey, great, Rosser. So you could have a starting lineup of all start with the offense. Kiowa lettuce, saquon. Barkley. Nate's older will Hernandez sterling Shepard, Evan Ingram Odell Beckham TVD at center right guard and right tackle TVD at the third wide receiver. And on the defense, you can have BJ hill Dalvand Tomlinson RJ. Mackintosh I kept Kareem Martin BJ Goodson Lorenzo Carter UI apple grant Haley, Sam Beal, Landon Collins and TD at free safety. And that gives you about sixty seven point, six billion dollars in cap space to work with. So that's moving on from UI manning moving on from Livia Vernon moving on from junior's Jenkins moving on from Damon Harrison, moving on from Alec Ogle tree moving on from Patrick Amami that's cutting and that is a ton of holes. Now, granted, some, some of them are holes that need to be filled just period. I am looking at center and right guard right now and right tackle. And when you look at and I mean, this is the case for every year when you look at your free agency for offensive linemen and it's not a great year to be doing that. It's never a great year and yeah. That's how you come away with no paying Nate solar, what he got paid your again, if you're looking at the offensive line going forward, it's, you know you're going to be paying top of the market prices for players who aren't exactly top of the market. You can locate in bar even close to it, gay. We'll get body Massey from Chicago, but you know, if you're he's already actually one of the higher paid offense of Lyman defeat hits regency. You're paying him even more. So it's it's a tough place for this roster to be in. And it was clear this was going to take a while to redo and rework. But I think they said, well, that's not how the giants approached it. That's what they're saying now, but that was that's just not what they were saying when this was happening? No, when it was happening in again, this is where one of the first points we made that you know, what is the. Plan every every move has could be rationalized in a vacuum. But when Dave Gettleman came in like a wrecking ball and just completely blew up to the roster while saying, we're going to compete this year which is say, contradictory actions and statements. They threw out the baby with the bath water. They let players go, who would have been useful and not terribly expensive right now we have John Recco at starting center. They had Brett Jones who was good enough that they could let western Richard leave and then they traded him away because they signed Patrico mommy at three times the cost of DJ fluker. And yet he is playing nearly as well as fluker was this, and this is where I, you really have to wonder, was there a plan or were they just making. Moves and spending money to be seen making moves and spending money to say, hey, we're doing something. They made a lot of moves in the off season, and there were just no other moves that probably could've been cheaper and set them up for more success. You look it now just coming in with with Cody Latimer as the number three wide receiver us making two point five million dollars this year. They were, you know, there were other options where you could have been better at outside receiver of someone like Cameron Meredith who was a restricted free agent with Chicago. He was coming off the injury, but pretty much teams had figured he was going to be healthy. He'll we went for two point, seven million dollars this year. He's on a on a two year deal the, but I doubt this team even looked at restricted free agency as as a way to to get players because teams usually don't restricted free agency is another hot. Hi market inefficiency where you could get players couple of years. The giants could have gotten Tony Jefferson, four, not much. He was on a restricted free agent contract, but with an original around tender and as a. For on drafted free agent that basically just gave Arizona the right of first refusal. And then you're, he bawled out. All the signs were there that he was ready to break out and then he did Ryan, Arizona couldn't afford to pay him yet. That was the same thing with with Meredith. He was. He got an original round tender as an undrafted free agent. There was no compensation. Same thing for Willie Snead in New Orleans. You know, maybe they didn't want to get someone who adjusts deployed in the slot, but he, you know, he could have been even a cheaper option. There were there were other ways to go around and getting more talent for this Rosser I mean, going in and not signing, you know someone like, I'm going to bring it up again. But Eric read in in the backfield as a free safety right now. Eric Reed making one point, six billion dollars. Curtis Riley's making six hundred thirty thousand dollars. That is a one billion dollar difference for an upgrade to Eric Reed, which they are even on the same planet as far as what kind of upgraded as theirs. A lot of what if we could do with this team and then I'm sure we can probably spend over an hour doing that. But I think when you when you just really when you do look at what happens with whatever the plan was and what the plan turned into. I, it's just again, we can just stress it. It doesn't really seem like there was a cohesive plan going forward. You can take that. So I think we've done kind of scattershot look at at whatever the offseason plan and what was going in. And then when you see translate to field this year it and it's been even worse and bore jumbled than than the offseason plan that happened is what has actually played out. It's gone almost the way it only could have. Right. But even someone like me who was down on whatever whatever the plan was, a lot of the. Offseason moves I, we start there would be a some semblance of of at least in authentic structure that would look okay, but that clearly has not been the case between whatever has been going on with offense of line. We've got plenty, whatever's been going on with manning. We've talked about that pointy, but even just even the scheme right now, Pat Shurmur was not hired to run in offense that looks like whatever the offense currently looks like. I spent like douses of words in the offseason trying to predict and translate whatever Shurmur was doing in Minnesota and how that would carry over to the giants. And none of those words have come true. So they have even with the offense of line being what it is they have the personnel to be one of the most. Explosive offenses in the NFL, but they're just not schemed to play the way they are built. Look at the game plan against New Orleans Saints, or again against the Philadelphia Eagles to teams with questionable exploited will secondaries and I think all told Odell Beckham runs sixty routes out of almost twenty targets maybe even more than twenty targets. Saquon Barkley has what. Maybe one target or route run from the boundary as a wide receiver. Everything else is five yards or less run from the backfield. They're constricting themselves on offense. Give either topics we've discussed on Angola's even every cast so far is the usage of Beckham the usage of Barclay again. What are you drafting or running back second overall for if you're just going to treat him like every other running back in the league, that's not the point. And that's not who he is. You draft him because he is different. He is more. He is a potentially elite wide receiver as well as an elite running back, right? So so picking him now we, we went back said that probably wasn't the best thing for the giants to do for their long-term team building. But he's on the team now. So that pick is now it's now a suck that it's history. It's yeah, he's on the team that now use him like he's supposed to be used. He took that screen against for fifty five yards use him on more screened. Use him on more actual routes. Even a bigger part of the problem is they have these players that they brought in and they don't even know how to use them. And that has is what has really disappointed me in Pat Shurmur the head coach? Yep. I want to like him. You know, I see the concepts in his play calling, and I want to like it. I like how especially earlier in the year he was using vertical routes to clear out and create passing windows, which was big per the reason why he li- manning was the second most accurate quarterback in the league. And then they just kind of just kind of going away. He was brought in supposedly as the or having an almost bell check like flexibility. You know he was raised up under any read and then added to that some chip Kelly's philosophies and schemes concepts, and then added to that what he learned underneath no return. But what we're seeing now is just none of that. Really. We're not seeing that kind of flexibility and way too scheme around his talent and scheme around his. 's problems. Instead we keep seeing them go back into that shell and just there's no other way I can put it just constricting themselves. They're allow is doing the defense's job for them. Yeah, I think that's an excellent way to put it. They they, they go back into a shell instead of figuring out how to attack and even with the offensive line with however much the quarterback may be women. It's what you can do. There are ways around all of that and and the giants just aren't coming back. Again. I've said, were I the first sign of something going wrong for the offense? Like that's it. It's it's off the rails and it's not coming back and it's it's it's insane to watch right now. It really is. And it seems almost lent on a biweekly basis. They will have one of these just terrible games where they are terrified of making a mistake of putting the football at risk of extending themselves to attack the defense. And they always they seem to come after games where. They do just that and it is successful. You know, they had a really nice game against the Houston Texans were we both said, this is what this offense was supposed to look like. Finally, it's clicked. They can build on this and live up to the promise that we all saw and where they do against the saints. They crawl back into their shells like a hermit crab. Then the next week against the Carolina Panthers, they come out and I think I throws sure four short passes all game. You know, he's averaging the only game this season where he's actually throwing past the sticks. It works for the first time since twenty fifteen. They break thirty points. They should have won that game. And along way, there was a couple interceptions in what we see on a short week four or five days later, they're back in their shell looking worse than ever. It's a mess all the way around. I don't. I don't think there's one part of this franchise right now that is not in some type of mess in in some way, and that's that's not a great place Tiba to be in right now in his Valentine views, Ed laid the Ness at the feet of John Mira and Steve Tisch and I would say mostly on it should mostly be on John Mayer's feet because he's the of the two. He is the one who is much more involved in the big in. The day to day decisions and the Tisch family is much more in the background. Not to say they don't make decisions because they're both involved in all of the big ones, but the giants are mostly known as the Mera family business. I can't say that that's a wrong way to do it. It's something a mess like this starts at the top. Yes, it does. And especially when so as we're recording this, John, Mara has appeared at the NFL owners meetings it your and me read the exact quote. I wish you create the headlines by his play on the field as opposed to what he says and what he does off the field. I think he needs to do a little more playing an little west talking that is John Mara on Odell Beckham. I don't know what the point of that is. John Maher is saying that really adds nothing, but like a little bored dysfunction to the whole thing. And I can think of. This Bill bardwell tweet from the other day who brought up Bill James. These kind of the the father of sabermetrics in baseball and barnesville seat was one of the smartest things. Bill. James ever noted was how bad teams blamed the problems on their best players. I mean, that's that's where we are at the giants and Adele Beckham right now, I don't care what you think of Odell Beckham and what he's doing off the field. He's not in like the top twenty of their problems right now. No, I didn't particularly care about what he said when he said it on ESPN. Maybe his delivery could have been a little bit better, but ultimately he was a not wrong and be needed to be said, and see. He wasn't. Shouting at it, shouting from the rooftops. You know he, he wasn't going on a crazy rant calling into talk radio. He was very calmly saying the things we. All know to be true. But I suppose football players are meant to be seen and not heard even if they are right, even if they are right. And and I think that really bothers me about that Mariko is like, is him saying he needs to start playing and Beckham's do in what he can. He, he's open, he's teams are steams are steaming against them the eagles. They ran like quarter quarter half, and they had a safety just on Beckham over the top the whole time, and you Beckham did what he could against that and having his all of his routes like within five yards of the line of scrimmage. And when you not being helped out by the routes being schemed to be certain coverages. I mean, there's only so much he can do Beckham hen Beckham is is doing what he can and we saw him roast Jalen Ramsey in week one and. And he could have had two hundred yards all by his lonesome. If they look to a more right. And when we look at expected points right now, I'm going to just dive into this again expected points added which when it takes kind of the history of play by play in takes what a team usually gains from a certain part of the field. However, bunch of player adds to that. That's their expected points added Beckham right now on Seventy-three pathways. Sixteen expected points added a win probability added of forty, five point nine that's more than saquon Barkley on receptions, which is fourteen point. One expected points added. It's more than sequin Barclay on runs, which is negative. Zero point four, four expected points added total. When you throw two Odell Beckham good things happen. You need to throw to Odell Beckham a little more. You need to throw to him better. And that's, that's part of the problem is whatever this offense. Scheme is whatever's going on on this offense. It's not using the players in the right way, and that's something they really need to figure out for this season going forward. Because if knows then then I, I don't know what you can be optimistic about when you change the players when the players being used right now aren't being used in the correct way. Yeah. And even if they get a new quarterback or a new offense of line, if they keep not using their best skill position players than it's just gonna, keep looking like this just with different names on the backs of the jerseys and how different people to be angry at man. If if you were hoping we were going to talk through this entire process and come out with a positive outlook of where the giants are right now, I am sorry to disappoint you because that has not been the case. I feel like almost talking through this. I am less getting more depressed and I was, yeah, and I'll I'll be the first admit, I was not someone who was optimistic going into this season. I think I remember what we did preseason over unders at dig Lou view producer. There were four or five of us who did that and put the over under at six and a half. I think I was the only one who said. Disdain is gonna go under. So I, I will say I, I was not one of the optimism people going into the season, but even this has been so far below my expectations as much as this season might be kind of off the rails and depressing and underwhelming really like what is depressing and questionable is, is the possible future outlook of this team. I just I don't know if I trust the structure that's in place going forward to be what is able to to turn around this franchise, at least in the near term when Dave Gettleman was hired. Trust cattleman yell. The Panthers were in the Super Bowl two years ago. While look at the season's around that year, they were incredibly inconsistent and would bounce back and forth between having a pretty good winning season and a not great losing season. And that team was mostly mardi her knees yet. Again, remember omen came in and Cam Newton was already in place at quarterback who was already in place. The running backs were Jonathan Stewart, and I believe Mike Tober was all with already in place. Ryan cluele is already in places center. Greg Olsen was already in place a tight end, and he just added pieces to that roster fry. And and when you look at what this team is going to need to do at quarterback going forward, Kyle, Ida was the first quarterback, Dave Gettleman ever drafted while Leto was ghetto men's I quarterback and again, Dave Gettleman has never traded down in a draft as in those are just I don't think I don't know how you trust that going forward. I don't know how that was trusted to begin with. If if I'm being honest, but I'm not sure how you how you can see what has gone on right now and trust everything for the future and it especially the way Dave Dataman. Has tried to build this team right now. That's with his Haag mollies and through the running game is just it can meet just eliminate that word from our vocabulary. Yeah, we can, but but it's it's a way he's tried to build a team in an era where passing is at its highest, its most efficient. And really it's easiest in the history of the league. And this is now a team that's trying to build through through ground and pound and be a run first team it and and because of how bad they've been. They've been one of the most past heavy teams. But again, that wasn't the plan either and they're doing a narrow when the offense of linemen coming out of college, just they're trained to play a different game than what Dave Gettleman wants them to do. They very few schools even used three point, Steve. Chances for their offense of lineman, they're almost exclusively. No. Are peo- based spread option, spread the defense out. And Lyman only have to pass protect for two seconds and. The if you're going to build a ground and pound team, you need players that are really rare. If you say rare, you probably do have that with Barclay boat like how rare and is rare so much better than than everything else. Eventually, you'll have to bow to reality. You have to recognize reality for what it is. And the game of football is changing the rules favor offense over defense. And it frustrates the hell out of me because I love defensive football, but you know, the rules, some of them motivated by player, safety others motivated by, you know, just improving scoring and you know, making the game more enjoyable and putting up for people who like offense of football putting up, you know, almost basketball numbers. Yeah, the game's going much more pass oriented and you have to recognize that because otherwise, realities in a slap you upside the face, but passing one is more efficient than running the ball that has been the case for just about ever eight advent of pass so much more the case. Now passing is at its highest, and you just have a front office right now that doesn't care, and and I knew that that's one of the boasts concerning parts of this is especially when they some of the best passing weapons around. Yeah. When you're just looking at the what the we looks like right now, and you have a team that trying to build in spite of that and not going into it. And you know, maybe maybe that changes if they get a quarterback in distract. But again, you know, who knows if that's going to happen? The draft is still still. While away. So we still have a wad of time before that part of the rebuilding process is really front and center. And right now there's just there's not a lot to look forward to and there's there's not a lot that is going right for this team in a year where they were, they were expected to be better than they were now. And again, again, this was just this was not the plan and don't don't let anyone try to trick you into believing that this. This was what they had in mind that this team was going to mean set up with a high draft pick that could potentially give them a quarterback that was not nobody plans Lantis that that wasn't it. This wasn't some Sashi Brown, Cleveland Browns wife, three year tank that that was not the case. This team is bad and set up to get possibly get a quarterback. In spite of itself. It's what it was that was not the plan long-term prediction or put it out now just before we wrap up by the end of the two thousand eighteen draft, Nick Bosa and David Edwards, right, tackle Wisconsin will be giants in after their first two picks. Alright. So that would mean Kyle is the starting quarterback, the the details of that. I'm sure we will get into as the season goes on a this richest kind of a work at at what this team is right now and how it got here and and where it might go, which you know we honestly have no idea. So with that, when I on that positive note will end there thank you guys for winning. Again, you can subscribe anywhere you find podcasts, apple podcast, Google play, Stitcher, Spotify. If you can please rate and review. That helps us out a lot and. And we'd be very kind of you. We'll be back in probably waiter in the week probably around Friday to to preview the Monday night football game. This team is on primetime again in Atlanta, so we'll be back waitered in the week to preview that game. Thank you guys for hanging out and we'll talk to you against you. My name is Spencer hall. My name is Jason Kirk. My name is Ryan nanny every week combined. We've form the shutdown full stran-. Keep telling you the now is technically college football podcast, but it's also a show about hair disaster regional grocery stores. We love Tennessee, Batman, homeowners associations bears in video games. I mean there's also some actual football discussion like about coaches, having huge contracts, coaches making terrible decisions, coaches saying really stupid things or the NC double a.'s saying released. Yeah, there's lots of stupid things in this big dome, beautiful sport. Sometimes we talk about football games allegedly. If you wanna take college football exactly as seriously as it deserves to be taken, come find us on apple, podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you listen to podcasts like this, this downpo- cast. It's not voltron.

giants Dave Gettleman Rosser Odell Beckham NFL Saquon Barkley Barclay Pat Shurmur football manning Eli manning Kyle Letta Arizona Eric Reed Ben mcadoo Rick Lewis Denver Broncos Gettleman Cody Latimer Jerry Reese
Big Blue Big Board: QB shapes and sizes, the Kansas City Plan, and bad Eli narratives

Big Blue View

42:08 min | 2 years ago

Big Blue Big Board: QB shapes and sizes, the Kansas City Plan, and bad Eli narratives

"Uh-huh. Hello and welcome to the big big board podcast. I am Dan Zuhdi. Join tear by Chris flow. Chris how're you doing today? Not dead tired already, but we still got a five days of combat four days combine left. There is a lot going on a tweet during the first day of the combine their stays where I'm just happy that stoke. Cobra is a thing. This is not a paid advertisement. I have just a very happy consumer of still Cobra when I need to get through days like this. And it feels like we're going to have a lot of days like that. So one of the reasons we had a very long day was because pets sherbert and Dave Gettleman both spoke at the combine on Wednesday. So Ed was in Indianapolis. He got a bunch of the quotes. He's put up a podcast that gives you kind of an overview. Of what was said, but we are going to dive a little deeper into what was said. Because if I could summarize I think we have some thoughts. We definitely have thoughts. I'll say my first two are one I picked the wrong damn week to cut down on my caffeine intake. And my second thought is I am not sure Pat Shurmur in Dave Gettleman have ever met. That's definitely a takeaway is. So they both said they expect ally managed to come back. I think they were kinda differing degrees to how much praise they had of manning. Although Gettleman went off the deep end a little bit. And we'll get to that Shurmur had a lot of nice things to say about Y that he does still think he has time left. Knee would be good to don't mentor quarterback into a quarterback would be lucky to learn under you eye. A so we'll get to some stuff. But in the way, they were talking about how to evaluate quarterbacks was very very different so pet Shurmur. I think he was an on the record. And I think some people had talked about when he was talking about last year. He said he would prefer his quarterbacks to be tall. He was on the podium at the combine and just said quarterbacks can come in all shapes and sizes he mentioned Russell Wilson winning a Super Bowl and things like that. And of course, a lot of these questions are kind of just veiled questions about Cuyler Murray. Who maybe we'll talk about of what happened with him? He's measured in five ten which is taller than anyone expected. That's fine. Great calamari is fine. He's a very good football player. We can move on. But Shurmur said you quarterback and come in all shapes and sizes and one thing that really stood out to me. He said as coaches, a we should be able to. Get these players in and scheme around what their strengths are. And yes, yes, they should that is a very positive thing to hear. And then Dave Gettleman comes up to the podium later in the morning and within like the first three minutes he was up. There says well, this is this is a big man's game. So they're they're very differing approaches. It seems like in how they are going to continue to evaluate quarterbacks going forward. Yeah. No. I thought they were. A few really positive in hope inspiring takeaways from Shurmur 's presser you when he talked about quarterbacks coming in all shapes and sizes he at like, you said mentioned Russell Wilson. He actually got into the fact that Kyla Meri's hike did not bother him in college. He only had five batted balls, which he said marine Haskins they both had five balls or other big taller quarterbacks who had twice that. So it was nice to actually hear somebody highly ranked in the giants workers -ation mentioned something that doesn't appear on your standard box score. It was nice to hear him here. Pat, Shurmur talk about the college game in how the college game is influencing the NFL and just that the nature of the game is constantly evolving. And they have to evolve in change with it. That had me feeling good for about an hour than the ghetto Sura Scott to the totem. And like you said it did not take him long to reaffirm his old school credentials football is a big man's game. Which yes, that's true. Even the smaller players are big by normal, human standards. But he once again talk down about analytics and talked about more ethereal, intangible qualities that you can't measure, and it was almost the opposite of what? Tat Shurmur said, and he head Gettleman set a lot of things that I think left both of us feeling a little bit more despondent than when we woke up that morning yet. None that I had very high hopes for that. But was simply said to me on Twitter after Shurmur came up that when he was talking about this all shapes and sizes thing and someone was like what if that suggests something he's saying just kind of as a smokescreen for what they might be looking at. And my response was maybe my expectations are too low. But I don't even expect that to be a smokescreen to come out of the general managers mouth later, and it was not known. So when when get them did talk about big man's game. He also said one of the things they try to measure as instincts, and if someone has the instincts if you're not one of the bigger guys you have to have enough instincts to to make up for whatever you're lacking. Elsewhere. And I'm not sure if that was also supposed to be like a veiled shot at Murray because if you watch any of Cuyler Murray and one thing that came out of that Shurmur press conference, which is probably something we should expect. He said he's watched every snap of Murray and Haskins and also walk in Jones and the other quarterbacks in this class. So obviously Shurmur is doing his homework. But if you watch Murray, he has those instincts he's clearly making up for his lack of size, which is why I was never really concerned about what he measured in at the combine because it's very clear he is already learned how to play around that size. No matter. What it was? But regardless of Murray for his second is just as Gettleman continues to have this very narrow view of how he views things, and how things should go, and it is so much different than all the other general managers who were talking during the combine I've just want to play a quick clip. Here of a Thomas Dmitrov who is the Atlanta general manager of part of what he was talking about. So let's just get to him real quick. I would say I'm extremely excited about where the league's going with analytics, I think as long as teams continue to keep it in perspective, and they're supplementing their coaching staff and supplementing the personnel staff through acquisitions, I think it's a really important thing for where we're going with our league. It's it's becoming a my mind just becoming a more more intelligent decision making league as as we move on with some of the information that we're bringing in it's fun to watch from head coaching standpoint as well as from a team building GM standpoint. So that's a general manager saying he's very excited about a Wittig. And how if you use it with a coaching staff you bring those together. Also, Josh terms Meyer who is a writer at five thirty eight was kind of bouncing around to a lot of the podiums. He was sharing a what of good insight from the general manager, and the coaches, and he tweeted this my sense overall so far hearing from besides -able sample of the league is that one. There is an acknowledgement that passing is the Senate that college concepts are here to stay to analytics are useful. And in the rise and three running back by committee is not going anywhere. That is the exact opposite of what you would come away. If you only listen to Dave Gettleman, speak and not saying that Gettleman is completely you've wrong in some of these things. But just the way he has this very narrow view of what he is doing. I don't think it is. Very helpful. It definitely came across while. He was talking at the combine. Yeah. I'm actually going to circle back to this in a little bit after we get to our next point. But I do wonder if maybe his talk about. Smaller players needing instincts might actually have been a veiled compliment towards Murray. But it just did not come off that way at all. Because the general tone of his press conference sounded almost like he was auditioning to be an extra in a Robert Niro mob film, talking about how Ernie Coursey is still his scary. How the quarterback the quarterback is gonna get wacked if a offense of Lyman falls down there there were few other things and it just the tone to me was a very almost angry confrontational tone for. Answering questions at the scouting combine. So maybe that changed his delivery from something that was could have been positive to it sounded like taking a shot at the at anyone smaller than ideal size. Yeah. I think it just a lot of it came off as as confrontational, which you said, and that was definitely the feeling and lot of just leaps in logic. He had to take to kind of back up his points. There was one point where he was talking about the quarterbacks. And he said you we have fifty three roster spots and and celery cap, and you cannot make a these decisions in a vacuum. But like going into last year's draft. What he was completely looked at the number two overall pick in vacuum. I mean, he had blinders for saquon Barkley and nothing else mattered, and there were other things. That possibly could have put the giants in a better put his long-term up, but he was very much looking in a vacuum. Both Shurmur and Gettleman said when everyone else was playing better ally was playing better in the second half of the season. And we'll get to that in a little. And then I think someone came up with the question. So what does that say about the quarterback if everything has to be perfect around him and get them in was like that's not what I said. Tell me a quarterback who doesn't need everything perfect around him. And so the audio of what the questions were wasn't great will be listening on the stream. But I'm going to assume someone said, Patrick Mahomes, and then ghetto men's response was will you're talking about a thirty eight year old quarterback versus a twenty one year old pup. I mean, yeah. That's that's also part of the point. You get in a younger better quarterback who doesn't need all of those things to be. Be right and perfect all the time. That's part of our point. So I think he just kind of like random logic circles around himself and not a lot of what came out of that press conference made me feel like he really has a grasp on where the week is going. Yeah. And. Talked about the comparison with ally. And again, the twenty one year old pup. So why don't we get into the what was probably the biggest part of his press conference. At least the part that made it to that was streamed because apparently he talked for another half hour after that. And that was the Eli narrative Powell negative the perception of you'll I manning is the reason why the narrative around ally is negative and he said he feels like it's a negative narrative. And it's not fair it his fair. He hasn't played. Well, I'm being that's fine. And I think we have I can say we've been negative toward you I, but I think we're trying to objectively look at his play. And I would love ally to play well, it wouldn't make covering this team a whole. A lot easier. If he was playing well, and we wouldn't have to have these podcasts and talks all the time. If you guys had heard our pre recording of this episode when we really want to go into the rants that were going on because we feel like we're doing this all the time. But it it almost is necessary that you lied narrative. He's queer he has not played. Well, I think we look at what has happened in the second half of this season. And people talk about how he improved as everything else improved. But again, so now twenty nine quarterbacks had at least one hundred passes without pressure. So I've said this before and when you're looking at quarterback play that is sustainable, and you can kind of predict future performance you look at passes without pressure because passes with pressure are very high. So they're just all over the place. If you're looking at what can be predict. Give it's passes without pressure. So from weeks nine to seventeen that's the second half of the season. That's after the giants by twenty nine quarterbacks had at least one hundred passes without pressure. Sports info solutions has e manning twenty fifth in completion percentage. Twenty six in on target percentage. Twenty first in yards per attempt fifteenth in touchdown percentage and twenty second in interception percentage. That is not good. Like, I just I don't understand how you can look at a guy who is going to turn thirty nine and think like there is some bias narrative that he's not playing. Well, like, it's just it's the truth. And at some point you just have to know that and be able to move on. Yeah. The end of things is part of things and. Everybody or there is a constant theme of going back. What do the patriots do? Right. How can what can we learn from the patriots and? Knowing when to move on is maybe the biggest thing or the best thing that Bill Belichick does as general manager. I it obviously is best quality overall as his incredible flexibility. Lack of ego as coach, but just as general manager he knows when to move on. Sometimes he moves on a little bit early. But he he never just hangs on until the bitter end. And you know, a little bit later in his talk about the narrative Gettleman. Said people struggle with looking at ally with fresh eyes and that they need to look at each individual year. Look at twenty nineteen as a new year without considering what he had done in twenty seventeen and twenty eighteen but and this is well wanted to circle back to just the difference between cattleman and Shurmur in how they seem to approach their views a league, how get them in the rest of the league's seem to view the NFL is that he is maybe the worst with looking at things with fresh eyes when it comes to the game of football right now. The most successful teams are the ones that pick up every single advantage that they can they're the ones who pick up every bit of cap space. They can who. Use their cap as a fishery as possible who. Use all of their draft picks officially as possible who are looking for new ideas who are accepting that college concepts have merit that they can win by using college concepts and using those concepts to get players on rookie deals on the field in producing fastest. Which would which frees up cap space to go sign veterans and that is just completely lacking. From the giants philosophy right now. There are no fresh is when it comes to howl. The top of the giants. Brass is Ewing the game of football. Yeah. That was another thing. I noted just in the view of how the week is evolving to a Mike Mayock, formerly of NFL network. Now, the general manager of the Oakland Raiders he was the first podium of the combine adoring his time talking. I think he said the phrase pass I league at least three or four times. I don't think I have ever heard that phrase come out of Dave gentleman's mouth. It's just it's it's something that has been accepted of Witter seems everywhere except New York and apparently Seattle also Seattle has quarterback who can make up for that. When he does get the through, and it's just such a flawed way. And in a way that just not. Evolving. And I it's just it's more more apparent every time they come out and speak of. But I think we can transition, and what we are our harping on this thing. I think when both server and gentleman came to speak. I think they both did have a sense where they know it is time to start at least attempting to find the next quarterback in line that step up from bashed year. When both of them believed that you I manning had years laugh that high level I think we now know that is not true, especially with twenty nine hundred being the last year on manning steel think they are realizing that something needs to be done at some point. And the phrase that was brought up and has continued to be brought up, and we'll probably continue to be brought up for the next two months until the draft is the Kansas City plan and Dave. Domen said that's kind of a plan. He wants to follow. Steve Tisch was asked the following day on Thursday. If that could be an accurate phrase to describe what the giants are are going to try to do. And he said, yes. So this Kansas City plan is going to be just this phrase that keeps going up and just by saying Kansas City plan. I think just completely does a disservice and shows a complete misunderstanding of what Kansas City did to put themselves in the place to have that plan and have Patrick Mahomes, which is part of that the Kansas City plan involved, Patrick Mahomes. It wasn't just that. He sat for a year and magically became Patrick Mahomes. What Kansas City did was getting quarterback before they had to they had a qu? Quarterback who was good enough to start the entire season. While the homes sat the Kansas City Chiefs one the AFC west that year, and then they had a coaching staff that was able to build an offense around Patrick Mahomes and give off his straits last year Patrick Mahomes through into a tight window on only twelve percent of his passes. Which was the least among fulltime starters last year. They built that system perfectly around Patrick Mahomes. So part of that is you have to have a quarterback worthy of that. You have to have a quarterback worthy of starting the full year say they draft Murray or Haskins, and it's maybe shown during the preseason training camp that they might be better than what ally. Manning is right now, even if they start on the bench if the giants come out and stumble the first couple of weeks of the season are you now. To be tempted to put Murray or Haskins in and on the other side of that if you draft someone like Daniel Jones, I don't care how long he sits behind banning. I don't see him becoming a good NFL quarterback. He isn't Naji going to be accurate in twenty twenty because he sat in twenty nineteen. So this just version of the Kansas City plan is just I think a complete misunderstanding of what Kansas City did to be in the place. They are right now. Yeah. And I think the coach in the flexibility side of it is probably the biggest thing because like when we talked to Mark Scofield about. Kyla murray? And he's in you. I think he referenced Padma homes as you know, we knew. Basically everybody knew that Mahomes had these tools, but he wasn't going to be Pat, Mahomes everywhere. The fact that he became Pat Mahomes was a testament to the fact that he landed in a spot where as you said they were willing and able to build an offense around him. It is possible that Murray could have a Pat Mahomes type impact. But is New York the place where he could have that impact. Will they give him the environment to thrive in Haskins? It's probably a safer prospect because I don't think he's going to need maybe such a radical departure from the pro style offense to succeed. Not even that Murray needs a radical departure just that they would have to accept the fact that he is a runner he can run. It's not a nineteen eighty six offense all over again. But just the thought that okay? Well, we're going to draft young quarterback and have him sit behind ally and will be set for another decade that just isn't how things work. No, no, it's not and you can see there's plenty of times. When no teams think they want to insig- rookies too. Short Watson was supposed to not start this season. That took literally one half of one game before he was put in. And obviously he was a very good quarterback and Petr then Tom savage, which Russell Wilson going back years. Russell Wilson the Seahawks gave Matt Flynn a huge contract at least a huge huge for twenty twelve. And he never started. It was clear from the first snap that Russell Wilson was by far the better quarterback. So. Ran with him and had a very highly paid backup. Yeah. So just feels like saying the Kansas City plant is just a very empty phrase. It does not mean anything, and is not some full proof plan that is able to be duplicated. That's that's not how it works. It. Just kind of feels like a phrase threw out there to say. Yeah, we know were eventually going to need to do something at quarterback. But we still want you to be the starter. So they're going to throw that phrase out and pretend that it means something, but it really doesn't. All right. We're gonna end the discussion on quarterbacks we're going to take a quick break. And then get into some other things that we came away from during these press conferences. Hello. I'm Spencer hall from Espy nation. And I want to tell you about my new show. It seemed smart it's seems smart as a show about people doing things that for some reason or another seem smart at the time. Those things might include doing a little cocaine driving a bike up amount or I don't know maybe racing one hundred miles per hour across the country in the middle of the night with no one's permission or even stealing a bat from an empire is room in a major league baseball park, check it out. And if you like it Tele friend, I'm Spencer hall. Don't do anything smart. Everybody at chief of the verge. I has podcast every week called the verge Hass my friends, Paul Miller or bone. We've got a rotating cast of characters from our entire site, which is about technology, how it impacts culture, and how that is all a big cycle that causes us to have a wide variety of feelings. The you can listen to every Friday we've done over three hundred and six years since avert has been around, but you'll need to listen to one the latest one to get caught up on everything. In tech news virtuous is on apple podcasts. Spotify everywhere else. You listen to podcasts. Check it out. Okay. So one of the other things that I think came away from this press conference is I now do not believe Landon Collins is going to be a New York giant in twenty nineteen. I'm holding out hope, but that hope is dimming it's dimming by the day, it seems and honestly I think that would be approximately these second dumbest thing they could do this off season other than get rid of Odell Beckham because right now Linden Collins is their best player on defense. You went through quite well earlier in the week. Lynn Collins, does so many things well that it just feels I cannot think of a good reason why they would want him to not be a giant basically because of the failings of everyone else. They put around him. Like, the Landon Collins was not the problem. Algal tree having his feet rooted into the turf was the problem Curtis Riley being a dumpster fire at free safety was the problem. The cornerbacks. Jewish Jenkins having just. Random lapses the constant turnover at second third fourth cornerback. Nobody. Seeming to consistently know, what their responsibilities were were the problem, then Collins was generally the guy trying to make up for all of that. And. He couldn't that's not a reason to. Let him go to I don't know Kansas City, or you know, maybe the worst case scenario Dallas, I could see him in Indianapolis, and that'll be super fun to see him next to cooker. Yes. But that's that's a whole nother thing. But yeah. So it seems increasingly unlikely the giants are going to put a franchise tag or any tag on Landon Collins. I kinda just seemed like it Gettleman was against tying up that cap space for some reason, he went into some long Slough que- about how putting the franchise tag on a player can make him angry, and that can cause a distraction and all the writers are just going to write about that for the next couple of months, and that's going to be a distraction to everyone. So it's a detriment to put the tag on again, just leaps in logic. That don't totally make sense. If you want the guy put the tag on keep them. I mean, if you wanna. Out a wall term deal. Then do that. If you're worry is that the writers are going to cause a distraction by putting the franchise tag on. Then the way you're handling Walker room and needs to be fixed. If that is going to be your biggest problem, but anyway on top of that and one of the things that he talked about with the cap space and how much the potential franchise tag with tie up. So one of the other things get said, and this was in the bout thirty minutes after he was done with the podium. He talked to regular beat writers for the giants. They had a Wonga conversation. And in that it was reported that ghetto been said he wants to save about eight to ten million dollars for the regular season to be able to maneuver and make some moves in case. There's an injury or whatever that is first of all that's a lot of money. But besides that. So what he said was right now the giants have projected to have about twenty. Seven twenty eight million dollars in cat space over the cap right now, they have it at about twenty eight point eight. Okay. So they have about twenty eight point eight so get them and said since he wants to save about eight to ten million dollars. They're operating right now like they have about seventeen billion dollars spent which again weird thing to say. But now you add in that the giants need about ten to eleven million dollars just this year to sign their draft class. And now you're talking about like the giants going to operate like they only have seven million dollars free to spend in offseason upgrades that just seems absolutely insane. So one that would suggest there's going to be a lot of cuts and restructures coming on. And the thing is there isn't that a lot of places to do that there's ally manning who would save seventeen billion dollars being cut. But but as been said by the head coach and the general manager that's not going to happen. So the only way to really lower his cap it is by adding a dummy year, and that's just going to add dead money in twenty twenty. I am not a fan of that. You can restructure Odell Beckham you could possibly cut a VA Vernon. But we've talked about that how a big spot to replace on edge rusher. And if you are saying you need to improve at edge rusher, cutting Olivier Vernon having to replace them. Does not get you there. I guess you could you could also restructure Nate solar. But that's again pushing more money down the line you could cut Jenkins. Maybe Alex Ogle tree is now a post June first cut. So I guess if you want to save that eight to ten million dollars for the regular season, the Ogle tree could save four million dollars. If he's cut after June first, or at least designated a post June first cut. So at least if you're. Not planning on spending that money that's one of the downsides to June. I cut even if you cut the guy before and you designate him as of post, June, I cut you don't get that money until June second. But if the giants only one that eight million dollars for the regular season of freeing up four million dollars on June. Second maybe is way to go other than that. There's not really a lot of ways for the giants to spend money. So I have no idea how they think they're going to go about at spending an upgrading this roster during the off season if they OB feel like as of right now, they have like a free seven million dollars cap space. My guess would be they wouldn't there if that's how they say they're feeling than they're going to have to create cap room. So like you said they could release restructure some guys. You know, maybe restructure Odell Beckham Nate's older pushing cap money down the road is not a great idea. But I suppose you could stomach it with ally. Man coming off the books after this year that will free up a lot. Maybe they could make Ogle tree post June first cut to give them that rainy day fund. Which is that is a thing that you do need because players who land on the injured reserve still get paid and that still counts against your salary cap. You do need just to keep some money in the Bank just for when you have to sign players during the season. Of course, the giants kind of took that to an extreme last year by just constantly tinkering with the back end of their roster and just signing in guys basically as long as they could which didn't make much sense to me. But that's not the only thing. And if they're only limiting themselves to seven million dollars unless they get real creative with the contract there. Not going to have room to keep Landon Collins, which automatically hurts your team by getting getting rid of your best defensive player, then this isn't really backed up by anything. But my sense is that they'd like to use free agency to shore up their offense of line. So they could go into the draft without that hanging over them. Right. But even they like that's not gonna be cheap. Exactly. Their exactness started, right? Tackle for two million dollars. I don't know. Maybe they've got some coupons that rest that the rest of the NFL doesn't know about. I don't know. I just don't know what they're doing. And if feels like another thing where they are continually stuck between saying they want to compete in having all this Detrick money, and realizing the Rosser has a lot of holes in needs to be improved in a comeback to the parks and rec thing. Ron Swanson, very wise man said never have has two things whole as one thing. And I think the giants from alas off season to still now are half assing a compete now and half assing a rebuild. And I think those two things are working against each other. And that's not an efficient way to build a roster. No. And just by the my I am always here for. Parks and rec references. Yet. Those are always welcome. But get almost back to where we were when we first started this podcast, and you have to it could only ask what the plan is. So many times before you have to wonder is there a plan, and as we just talked about I don't think the quote, unquote, Kansas City plan counts as a plan. No, it doesn't. That's just that's just saying a thing. That's I love lamp. That's. That saying it because you saw that there's no actual meaning behind it. And yeah, that's kind of the frustrating thing. And maybe that changes maybe they draft a quarterback at six the realize he's good and we can figure out how to forward. But right now, I just don't think the clues we've been given really should give us hope that that's going to happen. Maybe hopefully, they're just putting up such an awesome smokescreen that we have no idea. What what they're going to do with the rest of the league doesn't know what they're gonna do. And the take somebody by surprise. I doubt it, but we can hope for that at least for now, and you know, at least tomorrow tomorrow as we sit in record this today as you listen to this. We have the offense of line and special teams field drills. Get to watch very large men run a moderate distance. Faster than most normal size. Men could run that same distance than we get into the real athletes on Saturday. Well, I should say the body beautiful athletes on Saturday Sunday and then Monday with the wide receivers running backs and quarterbacks on Saturday. Front seven players on Sunday in the defensive backs on Monday. So we'll be back then to talk about all that. So that's something. Good to look forward to at least. Yeah. That's the fun thing. Combine workouts are actually going to start the onfield stuff. We can kind of get past all all the way ends. And this silly have you met with this team a questions that we're getting what he meets with everybody the answer to those questions are either. Yes, or soon? So when you hear whether someone has net with the giants were not yet. They're going to meet with the giants at some point. That's just how the combine works. Okay. So yeah. So we have that to look forward to we're going to be back early next week kind of breaking down what we saw from those workouts? What we liked what we didn't like and all of those things, and we can really just move forward. And then after that, it's it's free agency as we get into March. Regency starts like March thirteenth, also the Oklahoma pro days. So that day is going to be insane. But we're looking forward to it. So we have things to look forward to you as much as this podcast might have felt like a Downer. And I apologize. I personally would like these podcasts to to be more optimistic and more full of hope. It's just that's just not the way it's going right now. And if that changes. Awesome. I hope it does that'll be so much easier for for for me for Chris for just all of us involved. So note go into you and the show here, you can find this podcast wherever you get your podcast, please review. If you have not it helped us out, greatly pfoa work on big we view dot com. Phobic view on Twitter at view fell view on Instagram at big underscore, Blu underscore view. You fall me on Twitter at Dan possessor. You fell Chris on Twitter at raptor, M K. I thank you guys for listening, and we will talk to you against it. My name is Spencer hall by name is Jason Kurt. My name is Ryan nanny combined. We form the shutdown full stride. Keep telling you not from this forecast is technically college football podcast. But it's also a show about well care disaster regional grocery stores. We love Tennessee Batman, homeowners associations bears in video games. Pittsburgh Batman, the hell of being trapped group, text unreliable legal advice. I mean, there's also some actual football discussion about coaches, having used contracts coaches making terrible decisions or coaches, saying really stupid things or the NC double A's saying released. Yeah, there's lots of stupid things in this big dome. Beautiful sport like time Arkansas decided to use a captured feral hog as a mascot and it escaped and it wound up killing seven rattlesnakes a pig and a Coyote, sometimes we talk about okay alleged with. If you wanna take college football exactly as seriously as it deserves taken come find us on apple podcasts Spotify or wherever else you listen to podcasts like this one the forecast, it's not voltron unless it is.

giants Pat Shurmur Dave Gettleman Cuyler Murray Kansas City general manager football NFL Patrick Mahomes Russell Wilson manning Twitter Chris flow New York writer Landon Collins Indianapolis Spencer hall Spotify Cobra
Clips, takeaways from GM Dave Gettleman's season-ending press conference

Big Blue View

16:42 min | 2 years ago

Clips, takeaways from GM Dave Gettleman's season-ending press conference

"Welcome giants fans. Pugh are listening to the Valentine's views podcast here on big blue view radio part of the SP nation family of podcasts. I'm your host advantage. Big blue view on today's show what we're going to do is review. Some of the remarks that general manager Dave Gettleman made on Wednesday at his season ending press conference. What you're going to here are a few clips of Gettleman speaking on Wednesday, followed by some of my comments in between each clip that we play we will start with Gettleman discussing the future of giants quarterback. Eli manning. I'm committed to have made the best decision. Football. That's what I'm committed really wish. I know that you guys won't extras, Dale, the very, frankly, I did. So. I'm doing to do which is getting my office and show we will meet just this week coaching evaluations when he actually appropriate. I'll get there. As usual in. I will be watching film for the next. Who knows I want to my? That's that's. So my commitment is to make this team the best team it can be. Have you? I play quarterback. Okay. Giants fans. That's Dave Gettleman discussing the future of ally. Manning as the giants quarterback might take on that. Is this listen, I think that ally manning is going to be back next season. I think the door is open a little bit farther for moving on from ally. Then perhaps I thought I think there's a little bit more doubt regarding that situation. Then I might have believed after listening to Pat Shurmur, you know, talk about how much he he appreciated Eli and how he wanted him back after Sunday night's season. Finale, I think there's a couple of things at play here. I think that the giants are recognizing that they do need to put a plan in place for ally for the post he li- manning era. I think that that is coming down the road. It wouldn't surprise me to see you know, at least one new face in quarterback. Croom next year. I don't know what the giants think of of Dwayne Haskins Daniel Jones, some of the other guys in the draft class. But I do think there's recognition that ally. Manning has limitations. And that the his time as quarterback of the giants is sure it, but as of now, I do believe that the giants will bring ally back. I think you know, Dave Gettleman made reference on Wednesday as well to ally. Still being able to make NFL throws. That combined with Pat Shurmur endorsement of ally. I think in the end winds up with the giants bringing manning back. But it wouldn't surprise me. At all if someone if a highly drafted quarterback is also in the room next season. Perhaps we're looking at something like the the Kansas City plan where they drafted Patrick Mahomes. And had him sit for a year behind Alex Smith, and then moved on from Smith with Mahomes taking over this season in Kansas City to what we saw were. Absolutely incredible results. Alright giants fans the next thing. We're going to hear is Gettleman discussing the need for the giants to upgrade the talent on the defense side of the ball. They say down. Led to the wrongful Allison. Gave up the most points. What's that? Why you're twenty five? While I'd been that we continue on. Got to continue to improve. We had. It's off when. To millions. Don't have. Need? Flutie writing. I last year we got. Bathroom. Okay. Giants fans might take away on that is this. I think that Dave Gettleman in the giants are going to spend much of their off-season focused on the defense. Obviously they have major decisions to make on the futures of highly paid veterans like Livy Vernon generous Jenkins. They have a decision to make on Landon Collins as well the rebuild of the defense will start with someone like third round supplemental pick Sam Bill, but I do believe that you can expect both free agency and the draft to focus heavily on defense. The next thing that you will hear from Gettleman is him discussing the idea that the giants were in win now mode in two thousand eighteen in that perhaps he misjudged the the depth of the rebuild that was necessary. Last offseason. Do you think you misjudge how close the scene was being competitive misjudge at all? You know, people that's been asking for that. I've thought about it. I know. Tell me one. It's just your knowing that rebuilding process in bring back. You don't draft a quarterback. He trade give draft pick for the tree bringing older veterans creations in those those goes. He goes notice not some. But by the end of the year, we had one of. It was nobody likes. Nobody. He even know like losing already has they'll do it. Okay. So what you have to do when you committed his body. You saved his friend. Right told you I'm on that. To a. But the title of. You want to win. Now, you wanna get those winds Nedal coaching staff, which are on the line every side. You want to set the team up? The threat is up the sustained success. So. You know back to the city. You're in here. We are. There's this this good stuff in this. Okay. Giants fans. Couple of thoughts on that. The idea that the giants were in win now mode or the idea that they left the impression of being in win. Now mode was sort of easy to it was easy to go down that road because of keeping ally manning at quarterback because of some of the veterans signings Connor bar win Jonathan Stewart older players like that because of trading for Alec Ogle tree which brought in a big contract. But ghetto mimic knowledged, some of the free agent. Mrs you know, any acknowledged that you don't always get it right in free agency. He also acknowledged the idea that some of the players that were brought in were brought in for reasons. Other than on the field in the giants spent a lot of time and effort attempting to change the culture of locker room that had pretty much been poisoned. By the end of the two thousand seventeen season also acknowledged something that I think we've seen this year that when they know they've made a mistake such as with Oman may such as a quickly moving on from Eric flowers that they will go in another direction. I think it will be interesting to see how the giants handle the off season this year. But Gettleman made it clear that he sees this as a process as a building process he said, he doesn't like the word rebuild. He prefers to to to say that they're just building an that. They go forward. We will see where it goes. But I thought it was interesting that he that he didn't like the accusation that he misjudged the roster. I think much more so than the fan base Gilman's been around the NFL for forty years now, probably and I think he understood. And Pat Shurmur understood the depth of the job that they have in front of them. They're part of the way through that. We'll see where it goes in two thousand and nineteen the next thing that you are going to hear from Gettleman is an assessment of his belief in Pat Shurmur, we'll take a couple more. We ring in your line the right guy to this thing moving forward. Compass said is ready. No, no, if anything it reinforced my feeling about a year. We went to. Why it's it was the steadiness. It was the message. It was. I guess it's. One and seven. And we to practice during. This is kind of next. Is again, I don't know. I don't know you guys make gloss over. I don't know that you can really appreciate because you you'll you there any to watch stretch you watch. Sweet I fifteen minutes. Cochran. So. Stay there for the next forty minutes. I wish you could see in just waiting. Get the patent coaches kept everybody on task going to the renter. Understanding. You will be with Alicia could keep pushing. No. Okay. Giants fans. The thing. I've said many times regarding Pat Shurmur is that I like a lot of the things that Shurmur has done throughout the two thousand eighteen season. I really liked the preseason program that he ran you have to love the fact that he kept the locker room together after a one in seven start such a far cry from what we saw in two thousand seventeen. There is an awful lot to like, obviously in the end Shurmur and the giants have to win games. That's the bottom line. But I do think that I'm optimistic. Dave Gettleman and Pat Shurmur are not perfect. I am however optimistic because they do seem to share a common belief in how the game should be played in the teams need to be built from inside out from the lines out. That is a philosophy that the giants got away from in the final years of Jerry rhesus tenure as general manager. Dave Gettleman says all the time that big guys allow you to compete when you block you can have successful offense. When you defend the run when you have a good front line that can rush the passer you can have a successful defense that can make game changing plays. And I think that Shurmur and Gettleman share that philosophy. And it is one of the things that makes me most optimistic that the giants do have a regime in place that can push them forward and get them back to a position where they can consistently contend. The final thing that we will hear from today in in reference to to Gettleman press conference, the final thing that that we will listen to is Gettleman discussing the state of the offensive line in the need to continue to add more Haag molly's to that group. This season with your college. Is this you have sold or you have as you feel at the other because you're starting line neck well app is this office. This is no say first of all don't forget peel. Don't begin John. Worsley the second game. He was playing the best bed. Snow? Forget about peels. I always been working on those lines. Those groups you kidnapped have enough. You can't. You can't because people get hurt. All. People look be thirteen. Seven first round in the second on. I say. There's no idea. Dave so emotion always going to do. It. Giants fans. The takeaway for me. There has to be first and foremost that John Jala peo- who went out I believe in the third game of the season. With a fractured ankle is most likely to be you're starting center for the giants in two thousand nineteen beyond that, obviously the giants are not satisfied with the offensive line. They will continue to build it. This is one of the things as I said previously that made me optimistic about the hiring of Dave Gettleman. He believes in the hog molly's. He believes in building from inside out. I do believe he will continue to do that. So we will see how that goes. We'll see what new faces that that means for the giants on the offensive line in two thousand and nineteen with that said giants fans, I think that is our show for today. We hope you enjoyed this format. We hope you enjoy. Loyd the opportunity to get to listen to some of the things that that the general manager said all right? We thank you. And we will talk to you soon. Bye. Bye now. Hello. You're listening to Simone Roche for one of the hosts of the polygon show. It's a show all about the video games that you'll never have time to play brought to you by four friends who are just as passionate about food, soft drinks and TV shows as we are about video games. Every Friday, we bring you new our personal stories like how we found the best way to play Yuccas azero or even what happens when you play so much Zelda that you hurt your hands and can't play games anymore. Above all. We just have a really good time. Talking about the games that we love check out the show on apple podcasts or your favorite podcast or you can also find us at polygon show on Twitter and sent a tweet to say. Hi, thanks for listening.

giants Dave Gettleman Pat Shurmur Eli manning Gettleman general manager Gettleman NFL Football Dale Pugh Kansas City Oman Twitter SP nation Valentine Croom Flutie Allison
The Chris and Joe Show: Breaking Down Free Agency

Big Blue View

29:00 min | 1 year ago

The Chris and Joe Show: Breaking Down Free Agency

"People do amazing things every day and yet most of us feel like we can't do our taxes ourselves doesn't make any sense. Turbo tax believes that with the right tools. Encouragement people can do anything. Yes even taxes and with turbo tax live you have access to CPA's on demand who are available even on nights deacons to answer your questions or give you advice to help. Make sure you do your taxes right and get your best possible refund turbo tax. All people are tax. People walking back to the Christner's IOS show presented by SP nation and the big blue view. I'm Joe deleo joined by I come in today. We are going to be recapping. Free Agency as most of the moves are pretty much done. They're still some bigger names like to Debbie on county still on the market but no current news regarding where they'll be signing or if the giants will be making any other additional news we have one more move to recap from Free Agency. And then we're going to be breaking down for you giving our insight on what we thought were some of the best signings and also some of the more underrated ones as well and then capping things off with an overall grade of free agency so to begin. Today's show on Monday. News came out that wide receiver. Corey Coleman who has been a member of the team for two years now previously signed in the middle of the season two years ago after being cut by the buffalo bills and previously moved from the Cleveland browns his original team Coleman recently this past offseason tore his ACL during summer workouts so he missed the entire season. However the twenty-six-year-old receiver is coming back to New York and again I would say is relatively underrated. Return e for the giants considering. We didn't get to see an impact for from him last year but we did see a significant one from him in the kick return game when he was in New York giant for that half of a season. Yeah tell you. The giants have a a pretty intriguing decision to make with their kick returner at least some intriguing options. We Still Corey Ballantyne emerge as a surprisingly good kickoff returner last year and then the year before that or at least that half before that Coleman was actually something of a bright spot for the giants as a kickoff returner he's never really lived up to his first round pedigree as receiver but he does have that acceleration he does have that ability to catch and just go and that is a really good thing to have it at kick returner. He did bring a lot of juice to the special teams especially as a kick returner and being able to pick up some huge returns when he was healthy and planning for the giants in terms of where he fits though and now that he's going to be available to play. Hopefully this season not entirely. Sure how it's going to impact his ability to be explosive recovering from that torn ACL. But he's likely right now. The fourth receiver best guests in the depth chart behind Daria Slayton Sterling Shepard in Golden State in no particular order. So if they do choose to use him in various rotations and get him out there in pick up some splash plays if he still has that bursts he could be a really good additional rotational option for an offense that sometimes lacked a little bit of juice in various games If Jason Garrett does follow his the the tendencies he showed as the offensive coordinator and then the head coach of the Dallas cowboys having a vertical threat. Actually having to vertical threats is really huge for his offense or just the type of offense he runs which is basically his. Take on the air. Coryell offense and you'd need those guys who can stretch the field stretch defense vertically down the sidelines to to really make that offense run correctly. The giants do have Darius blatant. But they don't really have another guy capable of doing that. Hopefully Korey Coleman could be that guy or at least give them another option for that guy if they happen to find a player like that in the draft. Yes he does have that bursts till he can fit that secondary role as burner as a deep threat. Hopefully he does still that explosiveness like we said recovering from that. Acl injury. So Chris Getting right into our recap of free agency. What was your favorite signing by the giants out of all the guys that the giants signed picked up. Who was the guy that you thought man? This was a really really good move. Maybe I wasn't expecting it but this was a great move by the giants in and fill the need. I'm GonNa just pick the obvious. One is James. Bradbury the cornerback formally of the Carolina. Panthers he's not the kind of elite athlete. We see a lot of the number one corners in the League B but he does have really good size. He has the physicality to jam in press. Receivers at the line of scrimmage and. He is good enough at it that he can play. Press Corner and hopefully stabilize the giant secondary. There are some there are obviously some issues with him. He's not an elite player. He's not a he he wasn't the guy you go out and make a massive splash. Four but he is a good player and he is a guy who can hope like I said. Before hopefully hopefully stabilize the giant secondary hopefully take some of the pressure off Baker. Sam Bill Corey. Balentine your whoever else happens to be lighting up in the secondary and have a guy who can play that pressman coverage and hopefully give the giants pass rush. More of a chance to get to the quarterback missing the giants. You know they didn't really break the bank on a pass. Rusher lick we thought they would but hopefully by upgrading their secondary that will help out the pass rush because last year we saw the giants were really in a position. Where if they wanted to pressure the passer they had to blitz but they were also in a position. Where if they blitzed. They're basically all rookie secondary. Just couldn't hold up. We saw them just hemorrhage yards on big plays and quarterbacks actually playing better against the blitz than they did against a four man rush so hopefully having having a guy back there who can if not locked down opposing receivers at least four quarterbacks to go off there I read. Maybe go to their second end. Hopefully in the Andre Baker core Ballantine's Sam Bill. Hopefully they can match up better against the second third fourth options than they could against the first second and third options. If you look at the overall fit I think he he fits really really well with this unit. He's a bigger corner. If you look at Corey Ballantyne and Deandra Baker. They're under six four foot. You're getting James Bradbury. Who six one around to twelve. So you get a bigger corner you get a guy. That's a veteran. That's been around for a few years in the league. Not really an older guy. He's on the younger side going to have him for three years before he even turns thirty. So you should get some really good years out of Bradberry to contribute and I think the one thing that is a bit underrated about him is statistically he's not really GonNa jump off the page if you look at his pro football focus rating which you know. Take that if you will as a being extremely accurate or not. He was rated as a given a sixty one point. Oh PF grade. So that's about average for a PL- defensive player around I sixty one but if you consider the guys that he goes against two times a year in the NFC south is going in school. He always going. It's Mike Evans. He's going into Michael Thomas having a face off against those guys even if it's not for the entire game is going to probably drag things down a little bit but his performances against them are pretty good. They're not elite they're not completely dominant shutting them down but still he does look pretty good against top receivers in the league arguably some of the top top ten receivers in the NFL so that signing of bradberry super under rated because of the need that it fills bringing in a in a veteran presence for a secondary that was vastly struggling. It should really shake things up in that quarterback room and allow less pressure on the younger guys to perform. Because you can use bradberry as that number one corner and then have other guys. Settle into secondary roles. De'andre Baker can be that number two corner ballantyne or beal can be playing the slaughter as nickel corner wherever you need them to do. They don't need to be out on an island. Not every single one of them has to do that. My favorite signing though Chris I completely like the bradberry signing but I have to go with linebacker Blake Martinez from the Green Bay packers and the reason why I picked him because it was clear that they were going to be making moves to go and find new linebacker after they parted ways with Alec. Ogle tree now if they were going to choose to go in the draft might not have been as good of a selection. Because you wouldn't be able to get anyone to fill Mike linebacker role until the second round. You don't know who's still going to be available. A lot of those big named guys like Kenneth Murray and Patrick Queen could have been gone by them. Maybe you use Isaiah Simmons's that Mike Linebacker they go out and get a guy that can step right in. Play right away in contribute. Now he's a bit inconsistent at times that we talked about this. He has missed tackles here in there. He's not the most consistent linebacker but you look at what he does well and you look at what he can do. And Bring to Defense. He is going to elevate the level of play in the middle and is a significant. Step up from what we were. We were getting from an aging Alec Oak Tree. I firmly believe that Martinez is going to be able to step in and make a serious impact being that guy being defensive leader for an overall very young defense I think that is the upside with him. The leadership the communication the big problem with Ogle Tree Maybe not his ability to communicate but he just didn't process things very quickly as the defensive quarterback for lack of a better word. Yeah he was always. Kinda step slow between seeing and reacting in acting having a guy like Martinez who is a smart instinctive linebacker that should help the place speed of the giants defense especially in the middle communicating with the other linebackers communicating. Back with whoever the three safety is going to be and hopefully that will really improve the the communication and just how fundamentally sound indisciplined the whole defense can be. I also don't think signing Martinez really precludes the giants draft in the linebacker. I think they absolutely could still go after is as At fourth overall or possibly if Kenneth Murray Patrick Queen slips to the slips to them in the second round maybe troy die down at the bottom of the third round or possibly Jeremy Chen. Kyle Doug One of those hypothetic guys. I don't think signing Blake Martinez really limits. Their options like a we. We went out. And we got this linebacker. We're done we don't have to add any more. He does still have holes in this game. Like you like you said and getting a another athletic guy back there. That could really help. Shore up the middle of the giants defense. Help really help solve the problems they have been having for. The last idol wrote twenty years as far as covering running backs and tight ends in the middle of the field. Go and that would help the entire defense and having a communicator like Martinez and then a real athletic guy next to him that that could be a very very solid combination. You'd as I was kind of discussing that scenario I was thinking to myself. And you you already alluded to that things very much open and I think that right now. What their goal is going to be going forward is that they have that Mike linebacker. They have somebody in the middle and they're probably going to be seeking out an option for a hyper athletic will linebacker that can wreak havoc and cause problems while Martinez is that that center and focal point of of the defense and it really does put them in a really good situation. Because you have that veteran guy and you can use the draft position of the giants to your advantage you are in a position to potentially get Isaiah Simmons and use them as that will linebacker and move him around as defensive weapon and you also could like you said. Let one of those guys at slips and falls to you early on in the second round and draft them and use one of those hyper ethic is like Kenneth Murray or Patrick Queen hopefully one of them does slide and and it keeps the options open for the giants because there are some pretty interesting options like we talked about after the combine as far as young athletic linebackers there were a Tana dudes that rain four five which is very very unique and not very common for a linebacker group to be doing that. If you have one guy who runs a four five or like two guys earn a four five? That's pretty good. That's the that's a really good group. The fact that there were a handful of guys that were doing that that just shows how athletic linebacker classes and frankly how underrated it is. And we're going to be discussing a bit of how the giants roster shapes out looks right now on our Thursday show. We're going to talk about needs and how things fit after the free agency period is pretty much been wrapped up. We're going to now transition to talking about the most underrated signings for the giants. But before we get to that we're GONNA take a very short commercial break plant based is here to stay. We've got plant based milk we've got plant-based meat and now plant-based butter is becoming a thing. That's why we're excited about new country. Crock plant butter. It's dairy free and plant based but it tastes like dairy butter not to mention the plant. Butter sticks cook and bake like dairy butter too. It's got twenty five percent less saturated fat and the production of plant butter results in less than half the carbon footprint of dairy butter. Use it wherever you'd use dairy butter your top secret chocolate chip cookie. Recipe your morning toast. Any butter delivery system will do. And you've got a treat that's better for both you and the planet try it today. Find a store near you at country. Crock DOT com slash plant dash butter and see what all the plant based type is about support for this. Podcast comes from boost mobile. Don't settle for the excruciating pain of missing your team's biggest play because you have a frustrating and unreliable network step up with boost mobile boost. Mobile has a super reliable super fast network. So you can post up and watch the Games. You don't WanNa miss almost anywhere and when you switch today you even get four lines for twenty five dollars per line per month with unlimited data and four free Samsung Galaxy phones perfect for the whole family or should we say team so be the real. Mvp and switched to an all star phone plan step up with boost mobile limited time offer while supplies last new customers only inquires port and activation from eligible carrier one device per line users using more than thirty five gigabytes of data during a billing cycle maybe prioritize during times of Network congestion offers in coverage not available everywhere see boost mobile dot com or retailer for full details with any free agency period. There's going to be guys that are big names and there are huge signings for your team for the giants this year though also there are names. That are bit underrated that you might not really know that. Well you might think is well. Who is this guy? Why did the giant sign them? And I even said this about my guy but Chris I want you to start us off your with your most underrated signing and why you like them so much. I'm actually going to go with. Maybe not assigning so much as a re-signing end. Say Cody core. He's a technically listed as a wide receiver but he is a special teams ace. He's going to be playing on pretty much. All the giants coverage units yet. He has good size for a wide receiver. But he's got good speed. He gets down the field and we saw quite a few times really that he has just a knack the just a really great skill for downing especially punts inside the ten yard line five yard line right at the goal line tracks. The ball gets to where it's going to be and then does a really good job of putting the defense in a good position to make the opposing offense drive as far as possible. And it's those hidden yards that I think a lot of people overlook and how much they can impact both the offense and the defense a little bit more obvious how having a really great return can help the offense yet. If you're starting from the forty yard line you have a major event but if your defense has to force the opposing offense to drive ninety five yards ninety nine yards that gives them a bunch of opportunities to make a big play make a turnover or potentially stop the play in the backfield back in the end zone. Come up with a safety put. It puts tons dress on the opposing offense. But your defense in good position and those are the kinds of plays that game can pivot on and unfortunately a lot of those plays are also treated as a bathroom break by by networks end. I would say too many fans the I don't think a lot of people truly understand the impact you can have from core special teams player and cody core and nate abner. Having both of those guys being contributors on special teams is so huge having is that show consistency and high level of play on a level of the game that to some extent is gnarly paid attention to is so so important. For having consistent play in winning football games you can win out on offense and defense and have gaffes on special teams and lose a game because of it. So you need guys. Like cody core who are leaders and veterans on Special Teams? That can make that impact my underrated signing and I fully admittedly and Chris can attest to this as soon as the signing happened. We we had wrapped up a show and I said who the heck is tyler factual because we had to kind of figure out who he was and included into that week show and after Kinda look look into him a little bit deeper see his stat lines. Ceelo tape on him. I still want to watch some more and get to know him a little bit better from his really. Stand out season two years ago. The reason why I'm intrigued by him and I think that he's underrated is because at least interested to see what could happen with him. He could either be nothing in not really amount to much in only get us that one sack that he had in two thousand and one thousand nine he could end up being a rotational guy. That just comes in and plays decently well on defense but isn't a liability but if you can tap into what tyler did at his peak early on in his career he still very young. He's only going into fifth year. If I if I'm correct he was able to get ten and a half sacks in his third year in the NFL with the Green Bay packers and then he got shoved down the depth chart when they signs dairies and Preston Smith in Green Bay. And nobody really heard from him. If you can tap into that as a rotational pass rusher not an every down defender but as a rotational pass rush. I'm not even saying ten sacks if you can get eight sacks from a rotational guy that is huge that is incredibly impactful for creating a strong pass rushing unit with other guys like oceans says and Lorenzo Carter if you can have a collective strong unit that can pay dividends to increasing the level of play on your defense so I think if we can get that peak from factual it. He Will. Easily be the most underrated. Signing what I like about the fact role signing is that it is a really low risk addition Only making believe a maximum of four and a half million dollars so even if he does only two or three sacks this year that isn't a whole lot of money spent it's not a significant portion of their salary cap. It isn't a contract that is going to linger or anything like that but if you can put him in position to succeed if you can get that upside out of him like you said even if he gets even five or eight sacks that's the kind of secondary rush that defense needs they need to be able to send waves of pass rushers. You can't just have one guy generating the pressure. It's too easy for offenses to adapt to that overall. Though this free agent signing group was very interesting and unique a lot of contracts that were intentionally done to be short term and beneficial to the team by also but also bringing in guys that can make an impact in start right away to wrap up. Today's show we're going to provide grades in our thoughts on free agency Chris. Why don't you start here? What would you give the New York giants for a grade for their free agency? Signing performance yet this is going to sound harsher than I mean it but I'm going to give them a see just in terms of letter grades. They didn't really sign for me. Any needle movers. Any guys who are really going to inject the kind of play making talent and ability that the team has just lost and really almost hemorrhaged over the last couple of years. They got several good players. Guys who can step in and be contributors and I really like the the shift in contract philosophy. We've seen now. I think we might have to wait until next year to find out whether or not it was just influenced by the fact that they were doing these contracts in the wake of a brand new. Cba and nobody really knows what the landscape is going to look like especially with the possibility of a seventeenth game coming. But I like the idea that the giants aren't they aren't wetting themselves down with a bunch of potential dead money they're really good contract state Pay The pay. The players fairly but also aren't too are too much of a burden for the team itself in their future cap situation. I think I would have liked to see them. Maybe spread their net a little bit. Wider may look at Joe Schober or Littleton maybe here that they've made a serious play for Byron Jones or were players for Dante. Fowler I would have liked to have seen some of the bigger names at least seriously considered released publicly considered and if the giants could have gotten one of those guys in. I think that would have been great just to have a kind of cornerstone playmaker for a team. That doesn't have too many right now but like I said I can't be too harsh on this free agency period because it was done very smart way and even if these guys don't really work out. The team isn't handicapping itself for the future. It's funny that you basically have all of the same reasoning as I do. I just happen to be a little bit more generous in deciding to give the giants Abi here. I agree with all your thoughts that they were very smart and the reason why. I'm being a little bit more generous. Is that that. They weren't putting themselves into bad positions by giving is long-term deals in spending too much money in locking themselves down into contracts that are gonNA hamstring them in a few seasons when they have to pay guys like saquon Barkley and Daniel Jones and even more players that we can't even fathom right now. How many guys that they're going to have to pay in re-sign and keep here in New York if they do choose to. There's tons of contracts that are going to be coming up so these short-term deals are going to be very very beneficial for the giants because they won't have to keep anyone over thirty. That's not really doing as well as they were early on in the beginning years of their contract. But I do agree in the sense that I didn't want to give them anything. Further than a being. This is really more of a lower end. Be Let's say an eighty-three just barely snuck in there with a B. Because they didn't make any of those splash players like we talked about. We were pushing for guys like Byron Jones and for Dwi Clowney and those signings end up happening but this team still did get better. I will say though and we'll probably cover this a bit more in the Thursday show. We alluded to earlier is that I think that the giants biggest swing and miss though with this free agency that might be honestly think about enough to even push them below or be is the fact that they didn't do anything to sign any top available offensive of linemen. They did go and get Cameron Fleming but Cameron Fleming is not going to be your starting right tackle. At least I assume that's not a intention of bringing him in. It seems like that signing was done to at a little bit of depth in some competition to the offensive line group right now. They don't have a right tackle Cameron foaming looks like He. Is that right tackle? Because Mike remers laughed and went to the Kansas City chiefs. We were fully expecting them to spend that money and go out and get at least somebody that was available in the market at center or tackle to help fix the situation with the offensive line is something that has negatively impacted the giants offense for multiple years now and if they want the development of Daniel Jones to continue to progress forward. They're going to need to protect them. We saw what happens when he doesn't get at least average protection. He will be flustered and he will turn the ball over but when he's properly protected and he plays well he can be lights out and he can throw for three hundred yards and three touchdowns now it puts the giants in a tough situation to bank on drafting one of the top offensive lineman early or early in the second round because if they don't do so the offensive line arguably got worse. So why don't we compromise and say a C. Plus I see a High C? Plus a seventy nine and a half is a is a fair is a fair compromise minus points for not addressing the offensive line or getting net impact pass rusher but they got bonus points for contract structure exactly being smart and being financially responsible. That's GonNa be it for us on today's show be sure to rain. Subscribe wherever you're listening to us and also follows on social media at Big Blue View and you can follow me at Joe. Di Leone Info Chris at Raptor M. K. I stick around on Thursday. We will be giving you a roster evaluation host regency to let you know. What's the giants need going? Forward the INFO draft coming up in less than a month if there was a spreadable Kookaburra baker bowl plant face butter. That was better for your body and the planet. What would you make with it but our cookies butter pie? That's the thing by the way whatever it is country crock plant butter makes it happen and bakes delicious country Crock. Plant butter is so tasty. 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The Chris and Joe Show: Quick takes from the win over the Dolphins

Big Blue View

22:53 min | 1 year ago

The Chris and Joe Show: Quick takes from the win over the Dolphins

"Today's show is sponsored by critter. Quarters the new footwear accessory brand by Travis Matthew it offers incredible comfort and performance without the Gaudy and distracting branding that you'll find don. Most performance shoes quakers committed to making products that fits seamlessly into your everyday style products filled with useful technology that can enhance any look. While providing unparallelled paralleled stability all day long so check out quarter DOT COM SLASH SB nation to learn more. That's C. U. A. T. E. R. dot com slash SB nation. Listen you're listening to the Chris Joe Show presented you by SP nation and big blue view. I'm Joe Delia. Joined by Chris. Flynn as always giving you. The instant reactions wins after the New York Giants Games on Sundays and finally for the first time in a while we can finally talk in discuss a New York giants. Victory the losing streak is now over for the big blue. The nine game losing streak. That stretched over multiple months in this season is done after a victory over the Miami Dolphins Thirty six to twenty leading your first positive. This completely sums up. The entire game is that the giants actually went out there and beat and played well against the team that they were expected. The B. Two B. Better than a team. That is not a good football team. They actually finally played significantly better than them and keeping it as simple as that that was why they they won. That game is because they were the better football team on that field and they played like it for once. I'm not sure if this is a feel good win. Just because the dolphins are just that bad at towards the end of the game they had a stat up on the board that the dolphins are second in the League in players is on injured reserve. We already know. They traded away most of their best players except for really devante Parker and Ryan Fitzpatrick and the dolphins also had something like twenty or twenty three undrafted free agents on their roster. This is a team. The giants should beat every time and really the game probably shouldn't have been as close as it was for as long as it was but the difference in the game aim was that both teams had opportunities and the giants had the players to capitalize on their opportunities. They were able to score touchdowns when Miami wasn't they either had they were also field like on that fourth one stop great. Stop by Delvin Thomas and we'll get to that and then a missed field goal and it's plays like that that were the difference in the game. You really have to take this win with a grain of salt because like you. You said this team was that the the bare base of their roster. They were so stripped pulled apart of every piece of talent that they had except for maybe a few players because their goal. And you don't want to admit in the. NFL is two tank but their goal was to move as many assets. That didn't WANNA be a part of this. Rebirth in Miami Amy and turn them into draft picks and bring them in and build. A mold for Brian Floor is now. I think this team eventually will work because Brian floors is a very good coach. Coach that being said though going out there and playing against a team that that is that bad. It's just. It's good to see that the giants actually played better than average to below average. And we're able to come out with a win and I of course I don't know if you're a basketball fan or in your listeners. Or are Knicks fans at all but I was kind of thinking of this comparison. Here is that while the Knicks were have been very bad for a few years and right now. They're not that great of a basketball team but they're very very young in all. You're really looking for the for them to at least go out there and fight if they're going out there and they got all these young guys out there that if they're making mistakes at least go out there and fight and they were able to go out there and do that that maybe they're not GonNa win a lot of games this year which the giants did not do but they were able to actually fight and play well against his team and a victory and get a w. in the in the wind. Calm the exactly. The giants were able to fight through a lot of their early mistakes and let their preponderance of talent kind of carry them through the second. Half we saw saquon Barkley finally get going. We saw sterling. Shepard finally get going and that was enough to carry the giants pass the dolphins certainly and they they were actually kicking and swinging for once and we're able to see that in a clear victory but it's transitioning to our next positive that we have from this game actually giving you little bit more in depth about breakdown than we were giving with our first positive but the first one here that we have is the run game was actually moving and they were able to who established the run game they were able to get more carries for Saquon Barkley and establish a consistent rushing attack back saquon finally goes over the century mark for the first time in a very very long time. There's a slight potential. He could end up over the thousand yard mark this season season if he has to very very good games to close out the year but he had one hundred twelve yards rushing. Four point seven yards per carry in two touchdowns but he wasn't the the only running back to hit. Pay Dirt Buck Allen who they started to lean on in the very end of the game and includes clear that they were gonNA take sake one out not using as much because he had such a good day put buckling in buck. Alan is able to get some some holes paved open for him and have those good rushing. Lanes had a big long run. He was seven thirty for one touchdown so overall a great day running the football they were able to actually run the ball and you can see the correlation between a good run offense in being able the throw the ball not just throw throwing the ball forty fifty times a game. I think a lot of it comes because they were able to get that volume of carries in the second half after after they had gotten the lead we saw saquon. Finally start to really cut end. Make Defenders Miss. The way he had last year he didn't have any of the big breakaway runs. Like we saw last year. And that's fine. But we also really didn't see him stopped. OPT at or stuffed. Behind the line of scrimmage. We saw him even when the dolphins were able to get penetration force miss tackle opportunities and turn what could have been a very short run into a five or six yard Kerry. And when you're doing that twenty five five times a game that is really all you can ask for out of running back. I think the one thing that and I'm sure you agree with me and I'm sure a lot of people would agree with me. That was holding back Saquon Barkley and why he wasn't having these big stat lines and when I say holding them back what was preventing him from having big games like he did. Last year is that he wasn't able to find those big explosion plays and as we know in the style of running back. That's saquon Barkley is is that he is a guy. Run up the middle for three yards every couple times. But he's really looking for that. Twenty twenty five yard rushing to bounce things outside and we saw a lot during the year because he wasn't fully healthy that he kept trying to do that and he was getting tackled. Behind the line of scrimmage so he seems like he's in a little bit more of a rather than the office of line was doing really good job against a a below average defensive line in in getting some push and and once Saquon was getting the line scrimmage. He was able to bounce things outside and significantly outplay. A bunch of guys. That aren't even close to as athletic as he was. So just having saquon look like normal saquon just makes me all the more happy and I'm sure you can completely agree with me on that one. Chris Yeah definitely for me personally. It was nice to see him. Show some maybe a little bit more patients envisioned. Behind the line of scrimmage. There were a couple times where he didn't look like there is going to be anything therefore air forum but he paused and was able to set up his blocking and find a crease explode through it. That's something we especially this year. Oh haven't really seen from him as he hasn't had the explosion after his injury to really take advantage of those quick creases that I would open up so that was really good to see and if he doesn't have any more great games this year. We can't blame blame his injury anymore because he definitely looks healthy. Yeah we really saw him looking healthy and he took a couple rough hits here or there and he was able to bounce right back up but completely fine I. I'm sure everyone thinks the same way but whenever Saquon goes down now I'm always worried that he's not gonNA get right back up but he looked completely fine Looked explosive as he was. Maybe you attribute the fact that he wasn't hitting eating those creases properly was also because he didn't have as many of those creases as he did today but our necks positive that we had is another pat on the back for the offensive line so finally a full game by the offensive line albeit against a pretty bad dolphins defense. They were able to look pretty good. There was also with Nick Gates stepping in and playing playing for Kevin zeitler correct. He stepped in and played for him because of injuries sustained last game not the full unit but they looked pretty good. Lots of time for Eli Manning to throw all though he did not exactly take advantage of it on every single passing opportunity which we saw the three interceptions but the only allowed one sack doc and they gave him plenty of time to operate. Things looked easy for once instead of consistent ongoing pressure. Yeah and I it happened to be looking at the game center or next Gen stats right now. End for once the giants quarterback in this case. Eli Eli Manning. Had basically an average pocket to play out of the dolphins only had one player get on average closer than league average to ally and that was avery moss and he only got a third of a yard closer Sir than league average and out of all of it. The dolphins only got one sack so really that is a good performance that the giants had to have APP from their offensive line and it was a performance they really should have had against one of the worst pass rushes in the NFL. I would argue. They have the worst pass rush in the NFL. So again take it as you will with the only allowing one sack but the whole point of a of acknowledging in these positives and negatives is insert in specific games. What worked and what didn't work? We need to give acknowledgement two good performances. So I get it that they we're playing anyone very good but allowing only one sack and giving Eli Manning. A lot of time is a positive they look good and it was actually noticeable that they were doing things right for wants wants last positive that we have here. Is that the defensive line and pass rush. I would argue at a very good game now. They did allow over. One hundred yards rushing rushing but they did not allow a rusher over fifty yards. They also did allow some odd statistics Ryan Fitzpatrick on the ground which will beginning to in the negatives actives but additionally they had three sacks one from Tomlinson one from McIntosh and also a half a sack combo from oceans. Ocean's Jimenez in Marcus Golden yet. I mentioned before that we beginning to Dalvand Tomlinson and I think I might be establishing myself as his biggest fan but he had himself one hell of a game he was basically responsible for the fourth in one. Stop early in the game in the first quarter. That really kept the dolphins out of the end zone. I believe they're opening drive and then he had that sack later in the game. He was really mauling. The dolphins all -fensive line all game long and that is is just really good to see from a guy who right now is the giants longest tenure defender across the board. There was is consistent penetration with the amount of capital that has been invested in that defensive. Line it's good to say that they were able go out there and ball out and make as many plays in the backfield as they did. They were able to get safety. which was not from defensive Lineman but it was still good contained good gap presence from everyone on the defensive line? You need everyone to be gap sound for a play like that. That's tried to be bounced out to be To Be tackled for a significant loss in for safety so they looked very very good against a battle offensive line. Still though stuff. Do you like to see to tell you in a football game in having performance from your defensive line in not allowing anyone to establish a consistent run game that's all we have for positives. Now we're GonNa talk about our few negatives it is and as you might guess I say this every time we do a show when there's a loss there's more negatives than positives but for once we have more positives than negatives it's where you take a very quick commercial break get to those. This episode is sponsored by Stash. A SMARTER SIMPLER WAY TO START. Investing with stash you can begin investing in a wide array of companies diversified funds for as little as five dollars stash offers unlimited trading with no add on trading commission. So you can invest without worrying about getting nickel and dimed if you can choose your own stocks and funds to build a personalized portfolio. Were let stash build one for you stash. demystify is investing with with personalized financial guidance and education. Making even help you set up a plan for retirement saving Stachel give you ten dollars today to get started investing just visit. WWW dot stashed dot app with the code espy nation. That's www dot stash dot APP with code estimation to get your ten dollars to start investing on stash investment advisory services offered stash investments. LLC AN SEC registered investment advisor for disclosures and to learn how to claim ten dollars to invest visit www dot stash dot. Hey I'm Spencer Hall. I'm Holly Anderson. I'm Ryan Nanny. I'm Jason Kirk and we're the hosts of the shutdown full cast your avengers injures of college football. podcast says in the script onto riff on what that means and basically what I mean. It's all spoiled every Tuesday. We talk about everything from cooking disasters to pro wrestling. Too unfashionable pants worn middle school. We also do talk about college. Football every now and then like mascot fights announcers fleeing the booth. Early and unfashionable national pants. That coaches wear now. If you want to take college football exactly as seriously as it should be taken. Subscribe for free on Apple podcasts or in your favorite red podcast APP onto the two negative that we have from today's game. I one and this one just requires choirs. Just a bit of a conversation about because of who they allowed it to Ryan Fitzpatrick who is one of the oldest quarterbacks in the NFL who is probably one of the least athletic quarterbacks. I would argue if you think differently. I'd love to hear your opinion on this anyone for from any of our listeners but Ryan. It's Patrick Non Athletic Guy. In the allowed him to scramble an extent place early they were collapsing the pocket but they weren't finishing sacks early on in the game that was a little bit questionable. Well that was a little bit concerning that they weren't able to do that especially considering how much they've put into that defensive line pass rush In being able to make those plays on a guy that's not athletic quarterback could be because he had thirty three rushing yards on four carries it. He was able to pick up multiple first downs so just seeing him do that. In the beginning of the game really was some cause for concern yet. It was almost disturbing to see Ryan Fitzpatrick metric outrunning. Aleka will try to pick up a first down now. Granted later in the game Ogle tree kind of got his revenge with that big hit as has fitzpatrick tried to do a little bit too much and maybe tried to pick up a first down. That just wasn't going to be there. And ultimately the ball came loose and apparently just before his knee touch the ground to the giants term Turnover there which really good but still. It's not the best look for Ogle tr in the beginning of the game yen to put things into perspective here so that we were just praising the defensive line pass version our or or giving them our time but the reason why we were praising the was that they were able to make that offensive line look bad. They're able to cause them fits they. Were able to cause a lot of problems and they were doing that pretty much the whole game but it took them until later on in the game to actually hit home and get those sacks so this three sacks are nice but they could have taken him down more often than that the the play that you alluded to by Alec Ogle Tree made me shake my head and I almost completely forgot about it because watching him struggle to track down and make a play on John Ryan Fitzpatrick because he couldn't redirect quick enough and track him. Just get all the more proof that they need to move on from him and bring in a new middle at linebacker but talking about this situation and not being able to contain early on in the game Also goes in line with something that you and I noticed that the defense just was not very strong in the first half they were able to flip that switch and finish off the game strong halfway through the third quarter or so but still not a an incredible performance from them early on on. You had the giants defense. Didn't get a stop on the dolphins side of the field until the third quarter and it really seemed through through the first two quarters of the game that the dolphins offense as bad as they are was moving the ball really and will especially through the air. The giants were. We're able to get them to start a drive on the two yard line. But the dolphins responded with a ninety eight yard drive as good as the giants defense played in the second in half especially as they were able to play with the lead which has been very rare for them this year. They did not play that well in the first half now now they did not really have as good of a performance as they could have to start off the game did end up getting their feet underneath them to finish things off last negative that we have here is pretty obvious. I would assume that you would as a listener would be probably able to guess what this last negative is. And that's the three interceptions from Eli Manning and you know it's not like we're talking about Dana Jones. Here were were discussing mistakes in how we can develop incorrect them and take that step forward. This is Eli Manning who's been with the giants for his whole career so having him threw three picks just almost puts them out of the game and can almost take them out of it completely which she did on all three them he kept them from continuing and extending drives so just having three of those picks just not good as a football team. You can't win football games. If you don't win the turnover margin now and they were just ugly interceptions as well. The argument could be made that. Perhaps Eli thought that the player he was targeting was going to keep running in. Didn't didn't or something like that. But he has to be able to see those defenders when they're in position to just step in front of the ball like that and historically speaking if you are negative to in the turnover margin you only have about a forty percent chance of winning that game now granted. The giants won one by sixteen points and it was only that close because of a late score by the dolphins. They were lucky they were playing a team. That is as bad as Miami is. If they're going to be giving the ball up that much. Certainly if you if you play a good team down the road or next season when it's likely back the Dana Jones. You can't win football games against a good team if you turn the ball over three times. I think they'll just seeing the three interceptions from Eli does clarify to anyone that maybe maybe was doubting. If Daniel Jones was the right guy I just think did proof that the giants do need to move on after this season. I don't think anyone's is really at that point that they're still doubting if Jones to be the guy that the keys are handed to but it it it clarifies the fact that ally might have a little bit left the tank but not enough to be the giants. Starting quarterback of the future with whatever coach is brought in. Yeah I would definitely agree with that. I don't see the giants giving Eli a another contract. Because his contract is up at the end of the year. We'll have to see if eli gets. It's the opportunity to compete for a starting job somewhere else. I'm not sure where that would be right now. We'll probably have to wait until the off season begins to play out how various coaching vacancies opened up. And fill. And just what happens around the league. You know certainly certainly. We're going to have to see how things plan out and how they ended up turning out with all the coaching vacancies. And all that two games left though for the giants plenty of time to to see some evaluation of these younger guys. We're going to take a look at the tape. We're going to get back to you on Tuesday as we do because we are now on a normal week on a short week because of a Monday night game all that being said thank you for tuning in as always be sure to rate and subscribe wherever you're listening to us and also follow us on social media at Big Blue View and you can fall Chris and nine for me at Joe Di Leone D. e. l. e. Oni and also follow Chris at and Raptor M. K.. I feel free to reach out to us on social media. If you ever have any questions thoughts anything feel free to reach out to us whether you want us to get back you on social media or on the podcast we will gladly do so. Have a wonderful wonderful rescue day after a giants victory.

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